# The Official AVS Antenna and Related Hardware Topic!



## Ken H


Please post your experiences with antennas, preamps, all related equipment, and installation experiences. Indoor & outdoor. To include mounting, cabling, connectors, rotors, etc.


- Be specific; brands, models, sources, prices, etc.


- What works, what doesn't, and why?


- Tricks of the trade, and unique solutions.


Thanks in advance for your participation. AVS is only as good as it's members, and our members are the best.


Moderators Note as of 2/15/2012: The "Antennas, rotators, boosters/preamps... for wide-band VHF/UHF" has been merged into this topic, which now covers not just antennas but preamps, rotors, antenna cable, mounting systems, termination, transformers, baluns, distribution amps, and all other OTA reception related equipment.


As always, set-top-boxes are covered in the Official AVS STB Topic, found 'stuck' at the top of the HDTV Technical Forum.


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## MAX HD




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Ken H_
> *99.44% of the time, the following apply:
> 
> 
> - Bigger is better
> 
> 
> - Higher is better
> 
> 
> - Outside is better
> 
> 
> - Directional is better*



Ken,you are sooooo right.Thanks for heading up this thread.I'll start it out with one of the best setups for UHF reception...and I've tried 'em all


Lots of pics and nice links for valuable info.

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...rrentUHFTower/


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## marshdom

I'm a newbie and have been bugging the fine people in the Nearly Official Portland, OR DTV thread. Figured I'd make a quick post here, to see if I could get any more opinions and/or help. For more detail on my situation, see pages 90 & 91 of the Portland thread.


I am in a bad reception area only 11 miles from the Portland towers for all of the locals, but I am behind a hill (antennaweb.org says I shouldn't be able to receive anything). I have a big Radio Shack VU-190XR antenna in my attic (of a multi-story house) pointed in the direction of the towers. I have tried an attenuator (didn't help) and a RS line amplifier, which seemed to help a bit. I am using a new D* Hughes box. While I am getting decent to good reception of all of the analog locals, my only constant success on the digital side is with ABC. I am able to get a strong signal from CBS, NBC, WB, and UPN from time to time, but never all at the same time (usually just one or two of them along with ABC). I have not been able to get the digital versions of PBS or FOX at all, despite being able to get the analog signals decently well (and the fact that their tower are in the same place as the other stations).


Of course, the next logical step would probably be to go with an outdoor antenna, but I have a few concerns. I need an antenna that isn't too big or ugly, for the wife factor. Most people are recommending the Channel Master 4228 or 4221, but I was hoping for something a little more pretty. I'm also concerned that if I buy one and it doesn't work, that I won't be able to return it (not to mention being out the installation fee I'm going to have to pay someone to go up on my three-story roof!)?


Any suggestions of equipment to buy or things to try would be greatly appreciated. Is it wishful thinking (based on what I've described) that I'd be able to mount one small outdoor antenna to catch all of my locals?


Thanks.


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## Scooper

What channels (actual) are the DTV channels on there in Portland ? Radio Shack antennas are pretty weak above 40 - the usual brands (Winegard / ChannelMaster) are much better up here. You may also need to get a pre-amp - get one of the Winegards / Channelmasters.


Otherwise - there is no substitute for getting your OTA antenna outside, especially in a potentially marginal situation like yours - no matter how big or ugly it is (ugly is in the eyes of the beholder - I personally would prefer to measure this on my screen







). It comes down to - do you want HDTV OTA or not ?


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## offandon

I started with a CM 3021 4-way bowtie in my attic. I chose an attic installation for a few reasons. First I did not want to climb on top of the house and worry about mounting something to withstand wind. Second I did not want the expense of a professional mount. Third I did not want an eyesore. I figured my altitude near the top of Mine Hill would help things. My results were that I was able to get CBS, ABC, and FOX out of New York, and PBS out of Montclair, NJ. I could not get NBC on ch. 28 or the WB on ch. 12.


I was talking to a friend who wanted an antenna so he took the 3021 off my hands and I then bought a 4228 and a CM 7777 amp. I now get WNBC on ch.28. Still no WPIX on 12. If anyone has any ideas on the best cheap way to get ch.12 from here I would like to hear them.


I have about 60 feet of RG6 from the mast mounted preamp to the Samsung TS-360 STB.


I really wanted Philadelphia channels instead and I can sometimes get KYW on ch.26 but that is it. I am now wondering if a roof mount pointed at Philly would get me those stations. So much for limiting expense ... this is addicting.


Thanks to all on these forums ... you have helped me a lot.


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## flashbacck

I have a really newbie question, so sorry if it sounds dumb. But what in the world is the difference between a Preamp and an Amp? Are they two different terms for the same thing?


Thanks


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## Psee

Our home is located within 800' of one of the largest VHF towers in the county as well as a smaller tower (microwave, cell, etc.). (There are no hills or other appurtenances nearby.) When building the house I realized there could problems with OTA issues and tried to install the best hardware using RG6QS for all runs in the home-run based system. Everything has worked fine with a Radio Shack attic mounted antenna tying into the satellite/OTA system with a whole house distribution modulator to distribute the satellite to each location. I purchased a Samsung SIR-T151 decoder and connected it via a splitter/combiner to my main feed from the attic antenna with poor results. (Only one of the 3 local dtv/hdtv providers had an acceptable signal strength.) I then purchased a Zenith Silver Sensor which I combined in the attic with the same poor results. I then connected the Zenith antenna directly to the Samsung unit and all of the stations were fine (with a little tweaking to receive the station that transmits from the tower by my house).


I'd be fine with the Zenith perched in my indoor palm plant by the Samsung unit but my wife objects so any advice on a possible cause/cure would be appreciated.


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## jimmykce

I have just signed up for Voom to come out and install their equipment at my house in Newport News, VA. My house is close to an airport and I would like to know if the antenna that Voom install would work fine since its multidirectional or would I have to get install a directional myself. Please help since I am a newbie to satellite TV.


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## Scooper

The Dish installed by VOOM will NOT get OTA reception - that will require a REGULAR TV antenna aimed at your locals stations' transmitter towers.


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## enoree

I live in Southern Spartanburg County in SC , my setup is 2 rat shacks. 1 uhf/vhf 190 model and a uhf yagi that they discontinued that is about as long as the vhf/uhf antenna.i have rat shack mast mounted pre-amps for both with the inside power injectors.the yagi is aimed for the greenville-spartanburg stations and the vhf/uhf is aimed toward columbia, i can also aim it cowards charlotte NC. i get all my locals with an 80-88 signal strength. columbia channels i get are wolo-dt(abc)avg 85-94,wis-dt(nbc) and wach-dt(fox),but fox only comes in after dark. from charlotte i get wbtv-dt(cbs),wcnc-dt(nbc),the upn station.the WB station and sometimes wccb-dt(fox). The only network that I don't get in a satisfactory manner is FOX, the local FOX station is owned by Meredith and refuses to even pass on the FOX widescreen programming at all.The other FOX stations that i get on occasion are both passing on FOX wide screen and do a good job, but alas I don't get them good enough to delete WHNS-DT from my channel list.


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## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Scooper_
> *The Dish installed by VOOM will NOT get OTA reception - that will require a REGULAR TV antenna aimed at your locals stations' transmitter towers.*



VOOM installs an OTA antenna when they install their satellite dish antenna. However, you may need a better one than the "easy-install" type they use.


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## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by flashbacck_
> *I have a really newbie question, so sorry if it sounds dumb. But what in the world is the difference between a Preamp and an Amp?*



A preamp has two parts - the amp and the power supply. The amp is typically installed as close to the antenna as possible, "before" the coax run; hence the name _pre_amp. The power supply is usually installed behind the TV or STB, but may be installed elsewhere in the coax run (i.e. attic)....


An "amp" is a 1-piece unit and most of the consumer ones must be installed indoors. Since best results are usually obtained by putting the amp as close to the antenna as possible (to prevent amplifying noise introduced in the coax), a preamp usually works better.


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## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by offandon_
> *... I then bought a 4228 and a CM 7777 amp. I now get WNBC on ch.28. Still no WPIX on 12. If anyone has any ideas on the best cheap way to get ch.12 from here I would like to hear them...*



Remove the 4 screws and open the case of the CM 7777. Change the internal Input switch from "Combined" to "Separate" antennas. Then, connect a VHF antenna to the CM7777 preamp's VHF input. Leave the 4228 on the UHF input.


Depending on distance and station power, you may only need rabbit ear dipoles laid flat and extended to the correct length (try each dipole @ ~13.5" or ~27"), or you may need an "outdoor" VHF antenna for channels 7-13 .


For a _really_ cheap channel 12 attic antenna, I made one for a friend using two 13.5" lengths of coat hanger wire attached to a small wooden block, using 2 screws. I attached a 300/75 ohm balun under the screws, and connected the coax between the balun and the CM 7777 preamp. He receives our local (27kw) channel 12 DTV station @ 100%.


YMMV, of course.


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## offandon

Thanks ... I have a pair of rabbit ears I will try for ch. 12. If that is a no go I will look for a better VHF antenna. I appreciate the help.


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## Kipp Jones

I use the Radio Shack VU-210XR antenna on a 25' mast with a rotor. The antenna originally was $199.00 but was disco'd by RS and I picked it up for $7.99. Many others here did the same. It is a bad boy. It works very well. I am about 20 miles from the Chicago transmitters and pick up all of my local digitals with ease. I highly recommend this antenna if you can find one. It is big.


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## AcuraCL

I think I know the answer but I'll just put the question out there ....


what is the best solution to a bad multipath problem?


(Terrain: hilly, forest nearby, townhouses; antenna: SilverSensor; preamp: channelmaster 7777; tuner: Dish 811)


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## cymro

AcuraCL:


Horizontally stacked antennas.


See:

www.atechfabrication.com


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## Jwalter

You may want to check out AVS forum sponsor, www.antennasdirect.com 


Have had great success with their DB4.


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## Ken H

Products that work:


Channel Master 9521A

Antenna rotator with infrared remote control

Programmable for up to 69 stations

Internet pricing from $70-$90, plus shipping

http://www.channelmaster.com/pages/TVS/rc1.htm


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## slykens

My situation:
WJAC-DT (NBC) 250 kW Ch 34 at 68 miles

WTAJ-DT (CBS) 3.3 kW Ch 32 at 34 miles

WATM-DT (ABC) 2.0 kW Ch 24 at 34 miles

WPSX-DT (PBS) Single Frequency Network Ch 15 at 7.9 miles/28 miles

My location is State College, PA, and I'm pointing towards Altoona/Johnstown for OTA. My house is situation such that I am aiming over downtown State College.


I started with a CM 4228 and a RatShack pre-amp. With this setup getting the three closest channels was a breeze but WJAC-DT just didn't come in well enough to lock-in. At the suggestion of a member here I ordered a set of Triax Unix 100 Band A antennae from the United Kingdom and tried just one at first. This was an improvement but not enough to stay locked in on WJAC-DT. I added a second Unix 100A in a vertical stack and had better results but still not satisfactory.


A few weeks ago an order I had placed with Warren Electronics in December showed up at my door with a CM7777 in it. I placed this up on the roof in conjunction with the stacked Unix 100A's and am now locked in to WJAC-DT about 96-98% of the time. I still get some drop outs and break ups and I think I'm fighting some sort of overload as there is a pattern to the drop outs on an analog channel 19 at 84 miles on the same azimuth as the other stations I am aiming for.


The 4228 appears to be about 12-13 dB gain at 600 Mhz, channel 35, while the Unix 100A's are about 17 dB. Tied together as I have them I should be in the neighborhood of 19.5 dB gain.


Overall I am pretty impessed with my reception of the low power digitals at 34 miles over hilly terrain and downtown. I moved the CM4228 to my parent's house which is 4 miles closer to both Altoona and Johnstown and on the other side of downtown State College and had nearly identical results to those at my house.


My next project is to try to get WHP-DT on channel 4 from Harrisburg at 59 miles. They're only transmitting at 2.35 kW so I'm not sure what kind of success I might have but the terrain path from my house to Harrisburg is more favorable than that from my house to WJAC-DT.


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## Belcherwm

I'm using an RS VU-120XR, w/ rotator, no preamp. Tried it in the attic but signal wasn't consistent. I bought all the equipment (~$150) and had Fairfax Antenna (~$200) put it up on my roof ( 40' to the peak & 45 degree pitch). It's on a tripod with about 15' of mast and three guy wires. Used RG6QS. Everthing is WELL grounded. Feeding a Dish 6000.


After a couple of years I added a RS 15-1196, 1 in to 2 Bi Directional Amp, to split the signal to a second Dish 6000. A preamp did not improve my signal, but this amp did.


I'm getting outstanding reception from D.C. (35mi) and Baltimore (60mi). I think a lot of my success is due to being several hundred feet above sea level.


I went with the UHF/VHF setup playing the odds that some of the stations will revert back to their VHF signals for digital when everything shakes out.


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## RagerXS

I need to pull in stations from about 40 miles away (see below) and I must install the antenna in the attic for cosmetic reasons. I'm a newbie to all this, so your experienced suggestions are greatly appreciated...


uhf WYDN-DT 47 DAY WORCESTER MA 04-04 161° 38.3

uhf WSBK-DT 38.1 UPN BOSTON MA 162° 37.7

uhf WNDS-DT 35.1 IND DERRY NH 115° 13.0

uhf WUNI-DT 29.1 UNI WORCESTER MA 202° 30.0

uhf WUTF-DT 66.1 TFA MARLBOROUGH MA 179° 27.5

uhf WMFP-DT 18 SAH LAWRENCE MA FCC Ext 161° 38.3

uhf WGBH-DT 2.1 PBS Boston MA 162° 37.7

uhf WGBX-DT 44.1 PBS Boston MA 162° 37.7

uhf WFXT-DT 25.1 FOX Boston MA 161° 38.6

uhf WCVB-DT 5.1 ABC Boston MA 162° 37.7

uhf WHDH-DT 7.1 NBC Boston MA 160° 38.3

uhf WBPX-DT 32 PAX BOSTON MA Awaiting FCC Permit 161° 38.3

uhf WBZ-DT 4.1 CBS Boston MA 162° 37.7

uhf WLVI-DT 56.1 WB Cambridge MA 161° 38.6


I only want the stations in the 161-162° direction, so what do I need to pull them in consistently?


~ Fred


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## arxaw

RagerXS, depending on your roof, decking and wall construction materials, an attic install may not be reliable.


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## AcuraCL




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Belcherwm_
> *...
> 
> I went with the UHF/VHF setup playing the odds that some of the stations will revert back to their VHF signals for digital when everything shakes out.*



'

What is your source for this belief?


I read on the FCC web site that they are reallocating the VHF band to public safety.


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## Jwalter

If some stations move to VHF it won't be for quite some time.


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## arxaw

We have one VHF digital and another one will be on the air by this summer. And two other local VHF analog stations here have told me they plan to move their UHF DTV channel to their VHF assignment, when analog is shut off.


The TV channels that will go away after the analog shutoff are _UHF_ channels 52 - 69, not VHF. Article here 


.


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## cpcat

That article suggests there will be pressure for the *analog* stations to move from 52-69 after 2006, it doesn't really address digital stations with those frequency assignments, or am I reading it wrong?


Charles


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## jckessler

Digital stations on 52-69 will have to return to their analog channel number, or petition the FCC for a new assignment after analog shuts off. A very small number of stations have both analog and digital channels above 51, and presumably the FCC will give them a new channel between 2-51.


As far as getting a VHF antenna if all of your digitals are UHF, I say don't worry about it unless you want VHF analog reception or FM reception. You'll be fine for sure for at least a few years with a UHF antenna, and if your stations switch back, you can always add a VHF only antenna to your setup. Most antennas aren't that expensive.


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## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jckessler_
> *... As far as getting a VHF antenna if all of your digitals are UHF, I say don't worry about it unless you want VHF analog reception or FM reception. You'll be fine for sure for at least a few years with a UHF antenna, and if your stations switch back, you can always add a VHF only antenna to your setup...*



If you need a preamp, go ahead and get a VHF+UHF preamp , with a dedicated VHF input. That will make it easy to add a separate VHF antenna later.


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## Scooper

The only issue with that is FINDING a VHF only antenna now - I have one - bought a couple of years ago.


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## arxaw

There are several online sources. They're not expensive at all.


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## Larry Kenney

I have a rather unique situation here. I live in San Francisco about 3/4 of a mile from Sutro Tower where 10 UHF digital stations are located, about 4 miles from the transmitters of two other UHF digitals, about 30 miles from two other UHFs, 45 miles from three other UHF stations and 55 from a VHF station.


I put up a CM4228 with a rotor, plus a Winegard 3113 for channel 12. I really don't need the outside antenna for the Sutro stations, but I'm able to find spots where they all come in okay. Trouble is, they all don't come in from the same direction, so I've had to label the rotor with the channel numbers. I find the 4228 to be VERY directive, and it doesn't allow much room for play one way or the other. A rotor is a must!


I get all 17 of those UHF stations with the 4228 except for one problem station. Channel 27 on Mt. San Bruno, just 4 miles away, won't come in at all! My antenna must be in a null for it. The other station up there on San Bruno comes in fine.


I get the VHF channel 12 station solid with the Winegard.


18 digital stations, yes, but it's a major headache for setting up a recording while watching something else. It's often impossible to get the two stations I want with the same antenna heading, and trying to record two programs back to back on different channels is a real challenge.


You folks that can set you antenna in one direction and get all the stations are really lucky!


If I run my HiPix card through the signal strength routine, I see four other digital stations that show very low signal levels in here, but they've never been strong enough to give me a picture. Two are in Sacramento, about 50 miles away over a mountain range, and two are in Santa Rosa, 63 miles away. I bet I'd get those too, if I added a preamp.


Larry

San Francisco


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## larkengr




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Scooper_
> *The only issue with that is FINDING a VHF only antenna now - I have one - bought a couple of years ago.*


 http://www.antennasdirect.com/VHF%20...20listings.htm 


Check out the V4 VHF only antenna.


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## arxaw

That website is incorrectly showing channels 2-8 as "lowband" VHF. Channels 2-6 are lowband VHF. 7-13 are "highband" VHF.


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## W Auggie H

I am just starting to play around with OTA DTV and need some advice on tweaking my signal. Here are the facts:


- I live in Atlanta, GA and I am less than 7 miles away from all major station distribution points.


- All stations are in about a 30 degree spread from my point.


- I have a old antenna installed in my attic that was left by a previous owner. I ran new coax cable from the antenna to my outlet. It is about a 100ft of cable. Only running to one outlet, not split.


- I have the antenna pointed in the direction of the station cluster.


- With my receiver, the Samsung SIR-T151, I get all the stations I care about. In general when I check the signal strength it indicates that I am right in the middle.


- On occasion, loose the signal and or get pixelization. I have not done a real detailed test on this so it is hard to say what channels are worse.


My general question is what else can I do to boost my signal strength? Will a pre-amp help in this situation?


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## AcuraCL

A preamp is a good idea any time you exceed a 25' cable run. I noticed a drop of about 6% (on the receiver signal meter) when I went from a 6' cable to a 50' cable, so you could be losing much more of the signal.


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## Belcherwm

W,


A preamp will probably cause you problems. They tend to work better when you are at a greater distance from the transmitter. I would think that an amplifier or a distribution amp would be better for signal loss due to your cable run. Did you make sure you have a good connection at the antenna?


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## W Auggie H

Thanks for the advice. I double checked my connections and tweaked the antenna direction a bit. I seem to be now getting a slightly stronger signal but the signal also seems more stable. I watched the entire NCAA Final last night with out a hitch. I saw no pixelization. It seems that my signal is not that bad after all.


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## W Auggie H

If I were to use an indoor amplifier, what tips would you offer on power, placement, etc... Why is an amplifier differerent from a preamp? At the moment I am only running my cable to one tv. I could see where I would want to split that and run it to other rooms in the house.


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## goldrich

W Auggie H,


I live about the same distance (5-6 miles) from my local tv towers here in Indy. Over the past two years I have experimented with various antennas and I have tried them in different locations, too. I didn't have much luck with them in the attic. I found it virtually impossible to find one location that would give strong signal results on all stations. I have had much better success with the antennas outside.


I do have a Channel Master preamp (7777) on my antenna setup but it is not for the local stations. It is to help with a few stations that are 40 to 65 miles away. I've found that my reception of the locals is usually much better WITHOUT the preamp. The preamp sometimes tends to overload the local signals. I've even seen some local DTV stations completely black out or show "0" (zero) signal on the STB from too much signal. The STB was simply overloaded.


At your distance from the towers I would tend to believe that your problem is probably with your antenna and/or the location of the antenna. You should have plenty of signal strength in your location to receive these local stations. The signal to your STB will only be as good as what the antenna is capable of producing. Also, your dropouts could be caused from multipath, with your strong signals bouncing around and off of other buildings, trees, etc. This condition seems to be even worse with weather changes, like windy conditions (trees moving around), rain, etc. Have you noticed any of these weather factors during your dropouts?


Just my two cents.


Steve


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## W Auggie H

Steve,


Thanks for your 2 cents. I think you have provided a very good explanation of some of my questions. It is entirely possible that my dropouts were a result of some wind and or adverse weather. You see, in my neighborhood we have several large Oak trees that could very well be causing some of that multipath as you suggest. After moving some things around I seem to have a pretty sold signal and I think there is only one station that I don't get but I don't care about it. It would seem that if I want to take any more steps to improve my signal stability moving the antenna outside may be the best thing to do. Thanks again for your explanation.


William


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## woodgab

This link is a good read for us folk:

Pete Putman's Antenna article 


In it, Mr. Putman provides a solution to multipath using two Yagi style antenna's. I didn't even think multipath could be a rural problem until Steve's post above (trees). My dropouts do correlate with wind.


I have a CM 4228 coming and look forward to posting in this sticky. Great idea, Ken!

My sitch:

-5.5 miles from towers at 40 and 51 degrees carrying all desired UHF stations.

-Despite relative short distance a Silver Sensor can't give decent strength on frequencies 56 and 30 (WB, CBS)

-A current question would be what's better: A 150-200ft run of rg6 and a clear line of site, or a 50ft run with the threat of multipath and a less than clear line of site? I have a berm behind my house and could mount the, somewhat omni-directional, CM 4228 high up on a tree.


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## olysan

woodgab...


That article is very informative, but I didn't see anything about using 2 yagi's to reduce multipath. Can you point me in the right direction?


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## woodgab

Sorry, I thought it was in that article. If I find where I spotted it, I'll post a link, but basically the solution was to set up both Yagi's in parallel and stagger one behind the other just so that the first couple elements of the one overlapped the last couple elements of the other. AFAIK, there was no mention of how far apart the two antennas should be. I tried to draw it buy it wasn't working.


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## cpcat

Olysan,

Horizontal stacking in general is a way to deal with multipath. At http://www.atechfabrication.com you can see examples of this. This gentleman is receiving signals over a mountain which is frought with multipath problems. You can also search Google for "horizontal antenna stacking" and I think you'll find the other link on stagger stacking. If it were me, I'd try the basic horizontal stack first before getting really fancy. I'm currently using two Televes DAT 75's horizontally stacked at 57 inches (spacing recc. by Televes) with good results.


Charles


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## network23

Does anyone have a list of all available OTA HDTV recievers?


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## Ledger

cp cat where did you get your Televes antennas?


I am having great difficulty with my ota (55 miles+ from transmitters) and am open to trying anything. I have altrady tried 4 models from my local Circuit City and Radio shack and the Channelmaster favorites with no luck. I will try Antennas Direct, maybe I'll have better luck with them.


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## goldrich

Ledger,


Here's a link to Televes. http://www.stardubai.com/telantUHFPro.htm


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## cpcat

Ledger,

I ordered from Ruth Wigmore at CPC in the U.K.

Email is [email protected] .

Website is http://custom1.farnell.com/cpc/ 


They came in 3 days. Shipping is fairly expensive, though.


Charles


P.S.

I'm getting WETP PBS-HD at 64 miles and only 4.8kw fairly consistently. Don't underestimate the importance of terrain factors, though. No guarantees but I can confidently say my reception is now better than with the CM 4228 at the same position and height.


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## weedeater

I spent the afternoon yesterday putting up a CM 3679 with a 9521A rotator and a 7777 preamp.


According to antennaweb, I'm about 15 miles from my local stations in DC

and about 45 miles from Baltimore and Annapolis (PBS). I've always

gotten Balt and Annapolis on analog with some snow but never digital. My

house is single story between two two-story homes with trees.


I had installed my last antenna about 12 years ago, a Radio Shack

'suburban' VHF/UHF antenna (similar to a CM 3016). I also installed a separate FM antenna on the same pole. The TV signal was split to feed two rooms. There was no amplifier and the antenna was fixed pointing essentially toward DC.


I had intended to reuse the same chimney mount and pole for the new

antenna and rotor. But when I got everything on the roof I found that

the old pole which was in sections had rusted together. Also, the

chimney mount bolts were heavily rusted as well as the old antenna

mounting bolts. So I removed the old antennas (broke rusted bolts), pole

and mounts and made a trip to Radio Shack. I returned with a new chimney mount kit and two 5' poles.


The new mount went up uneventfully. To prevent rust, I spray painted it

with some Krylon I had lying around. The 9521A rotor is well-built. It requires a 3-wire cable for connectivity. The wire does not have to be very large, but the longer the cable run the heavier the cable. Mine was 18-guage since my run was short. The instructions with the rotor state that the antenna should be no more than 3' about the rotor for stability and wind loads. Also, the rotor should be installed so that an arrow on the case points North. A 5' pole placed the rotor above the top of the chimney. I cut a 3' section from the remaining pole for the antenna.


The 3279 comes in two sections. It is jointed with two machine screws

and wingnuts. There are two metal 'rods' that join the VHF section to

the UHF section electrically and are also attached with wingnuts. Once

the two sections are joined, the antenna is over 10' long but is not

heavy. The unit also has a balun (300 to 75ohm transformer) and mounting bracket. I attached the mounting bracket to the pole, attached the 75-ohm antenna lead to the balun, attached a standoff and raised the

antenna and installed it in the rotor, making sure it was pointing due

North. I attached additional standoffs to the pole and ran the existing

antenna wire down the pole and down the wall of the house as before.


[I left the FM antenna for later on.]


At this point I wanted to see if the signal had improved without adding

the 7777 amp so I climbed down to finish the rotor install. I ran the

wire through the wall where the old cable entered the house. I connected

the 3 wires to the back of the 9521 controller and powered it up. Since

this was the first time it was powered, it went through SYNC function

which turns the rotor to '0' degrees. The control unit is not very big,

about like a paper-back novel. It has an infrared remote and is powered

by a brick transformer with a 4' cord. You enter a degree (000-360) for

direction and it starts turning immediately. The unit can also be

programmed by channel number to remember the direct it needs to point.

With this and the right kind of programmable remote you could have the

dish move whenever a channel change is sent to your tuner.


I commanded the rotor to point toward the towers and then checked the digital signal meter in my ATSC tuner (Samsung TS160). I was disappointed to see that the signal level had not improved that much (from about 66% to 75%). I checked other stations that I could not received before and also there was no joy.


So I pulled the 7777 out of the box. This unit comes in two parts, an outdoor amp and an indoor power supply. The outdoor amp attaches to the pole near the antenna. The indoor power supply provides DC voltage to the amp. The 7777 has switches inside for setting an FM trap as well as VHF and UHF amplification. The default is for FM trap Active and both VHF and UHF amplification active. I used the defaults. Since by now it was dark I installed the amp inside for now just to see the difference in signal.


With the amp, signals that had been %60-%70 went to %100. WMPT HDTV signal in Annapolis came in where it had not been before. Unfortunately, I was not able to get any of the Baltimore digital channels.










To complete the installation, I will move the amp up to the pole. I will also move the splitter to the second set. The original pole was ground but I need to move it to a better location. And I think I'll use an old sat dish pole mount for the FM antenna.


----------



## Belcherwm

weedeater,


You should be able to get Balt with your setup. I'll be interested to see the performance change when you get the preamp closer to the antenna.


----------



## giantcycle

I have two locations I would like to feed from my main rooftop antenna, and I know how to use a splitter to do it, with the associated signal loss







.


But, as it turns out, one of the locations is our home theater area where we do most of our viewing, and the second is in a less used loft. Therefore:


What if I run the antenna cable into my home theater's Zenith HDV420, then out the "RF out" loop on that receiver, through the in-house RG6 wiring, to the "RF in" of the loft receiver?


1.) Will I have avoided the splitter loss -- at the first location, maybe?


and


2.) if there is a loss from having "RF out" active on my main receiver, wouldn't I just be able to unhook the "RF out" from the Zenith HDV420 when going after a distant signal and get that full strength? . . . while cheating the secondary loft viewers, obviously?


Thanks,


Doug


----------



## cpcat

giantcycle,

You are correct in your assumptions. However, you may find that if you're using a preamp that the extra gain will allow you to use a splitter without affecting the signal strength enough to cause a problem anyway. Just be sure the split is after the preamp and the preamp is outside on the antenna as close as possible to the source. If you're not using a preamp, you may need to consider one to split to two or more locations.


Charles


P.S. You also need to split after the preamp power supply unless you use a splitter that passes DC.


----------



## weedeater

Update.


I moved the 7777 up to the pole. I also removed the splitter. This made a huge difference. Where I was not able to get Baltimore stations before, I now have them at 75%-85%.


So now the antenna signal goes into the amp then to the power supply for the amp, then to a splitter. The two signals then go to the livingroom and bedroom TVs. The analog Toshiba in the bedroom never had such a clean picture. Must be spring because all the snow is gone!


----------



## Belcherwm

weedeater,


Congratulations! Enjoy DD5.1 on WMAR.


----------



## cpcat

Here is my current antenna. This stuff is alot of work but well worth it. I'm between 50-70 miles from locals. I initially had a CM4228 and CM Stealthtenna but with the upgrade have now picked up FOX as well as PBS-HD both at about 65 miles. My VHF CBS is much stronger and more solid as well. You have to save the zipped file and then open it to see the pictures. For some reason it won't open for me directly. I wanted to post the pictures in a more central area on the site but there doesn't seem to be an area for antenna setups in the photo gallery.


Televes DAT 75's x 2 57 inch spacing (UHF)

Antennacraft Y10-7-13(VHF HB)

CM7777 preamp

CM9251 rotor

RG 6 at antenna

Lindsay UHF combiner

RG 11 downlead

CM 30 ft. telescoping mast installed upside down


Charles

 

ant 3.zip 124.2568359375k . file


----------



## leesweet

You can never open zip's directly... you have to save/open, on AVS. Something to do with temp space?


Sound (and looks!) like a great rig, especially that RG-11, great for a long run!


----------



## OneArchitect

I am in a suburban area and local channels are short to mid-range in distance.


My Samsung 360 HDTV Receiver automatically selects the station via scan.


With a directional antenna, as I have, what may I be missing?


I have little use for the analog channels. Rotating the antenna is a pain...I'd rather surf.


Is multi-path much of a problem with local HDTV signals?


Has anyone experimented with an omni-directional antenna/amp such as those designed for RV use? If the local channels can lock on that without much of a multi-path problem, why not?


I have attempted to scan this thread for info - pardon please if I have missed significant comments.


----------



## vinnyv07

Anyone here have the new DB8 antenna? I was wondering how ell it was performing. Its 100 bucks at antenna direct. I was thinking of upgrading from my stealth to the db8. Anyone have any experience with it?


----------



## cpcat

Looks eerily similar to the CM 4228 to me which can be had for half the price. Either would be an upgrade from the Stealth (not very good on UHF).

I can personally vouge for the 4228, a very good value. It has very similar gain specs (for what that's worth) to those claimed by the DB8.


Charles


----------



## Jwalter

I can vouch for the DB8.


It has very substantial construction with a relatively flat gain curve and a broader beam width than the 4228.


It is not an apples to apples comparison, and is worth the money if you are on a deep fringe location


----------



## vinnyv07

I probably didnt need th DB8...maybe I could have gone with the DB4 but Im growing tired of trying Antennas that arent good enough. I wanted the strongest UHF gain that isnt directional. The DB8 attracted me because it covers an area of 90 degrees from where the Ant is pointed. Maybe I could pick up everything that is coming from NYC without having to adjust it for the best sig. Either way its a clear upgrade from the Stealth.


----------



## cpcat

The wider beamwidth can also be a disadvantage in dealing with multipath.

With everything there's a tradeoff, it seems. Good Luck.

Charles


----------



## leesweet

Yeah, it all depents on where you are. Some around here (No Va) can use the wider beam to get Balt and Wash without a rotator. Others will suffer multipath from that. One more reason to bite the bullet and call in the pros.


----------



## DTVwheaton

I live in a hotel. The hotel has directtv as well as a local uhf and a vhf antenna I believe. I have an accessdtv card and a silver sensor. The hotels antenna and satellite go into a distribution system where the channels are lined up for a closed system inside the building. I don't know if its possible to add a filter or trap (or something else.. not to clear on the terminology to use here...) and route that signal from the antenna directly to my room... might be possible...


But most probable would be improving my reception. The stations are pretty close (less than 10 miles from me)


* red - uhf KXAN-DT 36.1 NBC AUSTIN TX 260° 5.7miles

* red - uhf KVUE-DT 24.1 ABC AUSTIN TX 258° 6.0miles

* red - uhf KTBC-DT 7.1 FOX AUSTIN TX 248° 5.5miles

* red - uhf KNVA-DT 54.1 WB AUSTIN TX 260° 5.7miles

* red - uhf KEYE-DT 42.1 CBS AUSTIN TX 258° 6.0miles

* red - uhf KLRU-DT 22.1 PBS Austin TX 260° 5.7miles


because of where my room is I can usually get at best 1 channel in with 70% peak. (not sure which right now as I am typing this from work) Accessdtv will "find" mostly all of these. If I change the direction im pointing it sometimes will get another channel but the other might come in lower or not at all.


Another issue is something about the cable attached to the antenna. Sometimes if I place the cable coming from the back "over" the back dipoles of the antenna it gives it a little boost to the reception..


I have a desk stereo that runs close to the cable and I am not sure if that is part of the problem or not. Another idea is that I might be able to improve reception with a preamp or amp.. not sure.. Any ideas?


If you have an idea please let me know in laymans terms or have a specific product recomendation include a model... I thank you in advance for any ideas..


----------



## gotapex

I have a CM 4228 and a DB8. Seems like the DB8 has marginally better reception where I'm at.


All stations are 16-17°. All at 35.7-36.4 miles.


----------



## Electrode1

I'm in west Michigan, and I can recieve all of the Grand Rapids stations just fine. Last Thursday, I was able to recieve some DTV stations from Green Bay, Chicago and South Bend, but at about 9:45 PM on Friday they all disappeared. Since then I have not been able to recieve any of them, only an occasional blip from WSBT when the antenna is pointed at it.


Does anyone have any idea what could cause this, or how I could get those stations back in? Here's what I'm using, if it matters:


Antennas: Terk TV35 UHF/VHF mounted atop a quad-bowtie UHF of unknown origin

Preamp: Channelmaster 3041

Antenna position: 10ft above ground, outside next to the house

Tuner: pcHDTV HD-2000 DTV card


----------



## cpcat

Electrode1,


It was likely a weather condition called tropospheric ducting. In effect, distant signals are carried long distances through layers of the atmosphere under certain weather conditions, occurring more often in the warm weather months. Search Google for "tropo ducting" and you'll get plenty of info on it. Also, go to William Hepburn's tropo forecast site to see (remember, it's only a *forecast*) when conditions will occur again in your area.


I received a couple of stations I'd never gotten before last week as well, but not since.


Charles


----------



## Electrode1

Very interesting. That would explain a lot.


----------



## Angelo M

I'm planning on mounting an outdoor uhf antenna onto my chimney with the straps. A channel master 4248 or 3023. Lowe's have channel master 10ft and 5ft posts. How high can I join the masts without needing guy wires too? I'd like to go at least 15ft with 2 posts and better yet 20ft.


Hopefully with the narrow design of the antenna wind would not have too much drag or force, I'm not sure. I'd also need a rotor atop the mast too, so that may and some drag too.


How high can I go with this antenna mounted to the chimney.... Thanks


----------



## scasper

Anyone out there from Reno, NV? I've used Antennaweb.org and solidsignal to check things out, but I'm looking for someone who has gotten good results here. Thanks.


----------



## OneArchitect

Cool Chart.


Thanks for the Antennaweb.org link.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Angelo M_
> *How high can I join the masts without needing guy wires too?
> 
> 
> Hopefully with the narrow design of the antenna wind would not have too much drag or force, I'm not sure. I'd also need a rotor atop the mast too, so that may and some drag too.
> *



The 4228 has a high wind load because of the large surface area. Although torque is probably less because of the narrow design, there's still plenty of metal to catch the wind if you're pointed in the right direction.


The real question is this: how strong is your chimney? You can strap anything to it, but once you securely attach it, it is only as strong as what it is attached to. Generally, mason (brick/stone) chimneys are not designed to handle torque at all, meaning that over time, wind will pull your chimney apart. If you have a wood chimney, they do better.


To be safe, I'd say you shouldn't clear your chimney by more than 6'. You might get away with more, but then again, you might not.


Guy wires provide a lot of extra strength and security, taking almost the entire wind load off of your chimney. Use silicone to seal the guy wire holes and you should be fine for water issues.


Legal disclaimer: I'm not a builder, roofer, or antenna installer. No guarantees, even for 6'.


----------



## cpcat

Angelo M,

Do you have to mount to your chimney? A ground mount strapped to the wall on the way up is much more secure and also easier. In addition, you can have easier access to the antenna from the roof. Chimney mounts are pretty difficult (never done one myself) and you might consider getting a professional to help. If you have the option of a ground mount, it can be done by an amatuer (I did). Here's a picture of mine. It's on my garage and I can easily climb up on the roof and access my antenna. In addition, I used a telescoping mast upside-down so the part that is loaded the most is the strongest. Channel master says on their website that you can go no more than 10 ft above roof-line with a ground mount and no guy wires.


Charles

 

ant 3.zip 124.2568359375k . file


----------



## Angelo M

cpcat,


I don't have to use the chimney. It is the highest point of my house. I actually have a 2 1/2 story house. I wanted to get the antenna as high up as possible without using one of the heavy duty type masts. My roof peaks at the center of the house from all 4 sides and my chimney is near the center. With a 10 foot mast I figure the antenna would be about 40ft off the ground. I considered wall mounting but with a 10 mast above the gutter it would just about be level with the peak of the roof.


By the way this whole antenna end of HDTV is pretty new to me, but you seem to have a serious antenna setup. Do the dual UHF's in your set up maximize you channels and reception vs just one?


sregener,


My chimney's condition is the weak link as far as durability is concerned. I am getting prices on having it repointed. I can picture it failing in its present condition.


It seems like getting the right antenna setup/location requires alot of headwork, planning and luck as far as being in the right position for signal reception.


Thanks both of you for your input.......


----------



## cpcat

Angelo M,

My advice to you before you start all of this is don't underestimate how important your piece of mind is when the wind is howling outside. If you go with an outdoor antenna, find a way to make it strong. I started with an eave mount on my garage but found myself going and looking at the antenna constantly expecting it to fall down.


In general, extra height is good, but not always. With my telescoping mast I can go up about another 8 feet but in my situation the signal is actually stronger at the lower position. If your situation requires 360 degree exposure you may have to go to the highest point on the roof, but OTOH if your stations are located in one general direction you may not need it as much as you think. The problem is, it's hard to really know until you try.


You might consider mounting the 4248 +/- a preamp on a short piece of mast and moving it around on your roof with someone checking your favorite channels inside (on a calm day would be wise) and seeing where you can get an adequate signal before making a more definitive plan.


My journey started with a CM Stealthtenna from Lowes. I set it up in my living room with a CM Spartan preamp (also from Lowes). I couldn't get anything so I moved to the attic. Nothing. I almost gave up but figured I'd try it on my front porch. Bingo, I had a VHF CBS from about 50 miles, so I decided to make the effort for an outdoor antenna. From there it's just evolved as I've gone for better and longer distance and continued the quest for more stations. It's addicting so be careful. The horizontal stack I have now provides added gain and probably more importantly added directivity and multipath rejection. You can stack vertically as well but horizontal directivity stays the same and you narrow the beam vertically. I tried it and it worked pretty well but it was murder on my rotor in a stiff wind (see my piece of mind comment above).


Charles


----------



## rldud

I would like to get some input on the advantages and disadvantages of OTA reception compared to using D* satellite for my local stations. I am less than 20 miles from all the local tv antennas and they are all located in the same location. Thanks


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by rldud_
> *I would like to get some input on the advantages and disadvantages of OTA reception compared to using D* satellite for my local stations. I am less than 20 miles from all the local tv antennas and they are all located in the same location.*



Advantages of D* over antenna:


- All signals digital, reliable, except when it rains.

- Install is relatively straightforward as there are few choices.

- Dish doesn't need to be installed at the peak of your roof.


Disadvantages of D* over antenna:


- Pay extra $$$ every month for free television.

- Overcompressed D* signals have poor color depth and have artifacts.

- No HD networks (except maybe CBS if you live in an O&O area)

- Can't give you out-of-market signals, which you might get with an antenna.


For most people, I think the advantages of digital terrestrial reception should slant things that way - why pay money for overcompressed digitals when you can get much better digital signals from the local towers? Add in HD content, and the local antenna option should win every time, even if you don't have an HDTV (downconverted HD looks better than upconverted analog!)


----------



## rldud

I do have a new HDTV and D* HD receiver. They say that local channels will be available in a couple of months (?) and I just have rabbit ear antennas in my attic that I used for my old standard TV. The antennas I have now will work but the picture is not very good, so I know I need to do something. I am thinking about buying a good antenna and mounting it outside. I am also worried about lightning with the OTA antenna. Thanks for the info.


----------



## barrygordon

I live east of Orlando FL, actually Merritt Island. I currently have two antennas in the attic; a high gain UHF (Channelmaster 4228) and a small YAGI cut for VHF 11. This is because WNBC comes in on channel 11 for HDTV and all others are on UHF. The two antennas feed a Channel master 7777 preamp and then a Spaun multiplexor. I know if I put the antennas on the roof all will be better except with my HOA, who have no say in the matter. I am an officer in the HOA, so i try to be nice and i don't like the look of the antenna on the roof. I may be forced there though.


I get between 77% and 100% signal strength on 12 digital channels, except for one important one, WCBS. I get no signal there. I do not understand why since all transmitters (the ones I care about are at the same location (Bithlo) and about 35 miles away over Florida Terrain (nothing high).


I did remove a section of radiant barrier (silver foil) and that improved the received SS by almost 30% to its current level.


To get WCBS (UHF 58) I have a Jointenna on order. I will then use a small directional UHF in the attic and tie it in via the jointenna and specifically aim it to get a maximum signal on UHF 58. Probably nbeed to take down more radiant barrier. Total cable runs to the sets are about 100 feet from antenna to mlpxr to sets.


I will post how I make out.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by barrygordon_
> *
> 
> I get between 77% and 100% signal strength on 12 digital channels, except for one important one, WCBS. I get no signal there.*



You should be quite impressed if you got WCBS from Orlando, Florida. WCBS broadcasts in New York City. (Okay, okay. You're talking about the local CBS affiliate, WKMG, but it took me quite a bit of legwork to figure that one out.)


The gain curve on the 4228 starts to drop after channel 50. See:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


The higher the channel number, the more directional most UHF antennas become. Thus, you should expect that a few degrees change in direction will make or break you with WKMG-DT-58.


You don't say how far away you are from the towers, but if you haven't tried it without a preamplifier, it might be worth a shot. WKMG-DT is running a full megawatt of power (though slightly less in your direction with their directional antenna) and from a very tall tower. Unless you're 50+ miles out, that preamp could be making things worse for you.


----------



## NGiovas

I have a question about antenna selection. I am seriously considering purchasing a directional antenna to receive OTA HD signals. I live in SE Michigan (about 45 miles north of Detroit). According to Antennaweb.org I am 26 miles from the furthest tower I want to receive from and all of the stations are within 6 degrees of each other.


I am only considering an attic mount because I really don't like the looks of an antenna on the roof. Antennas direct recommended the XG42 directional antenna.


What has anyones experience been with this antenna? I'm assuming that with a 6 degree spread between towers I should be OK with this antenna. Am I going to experience to much loss with it in the attic? I have an asphalt shingle roof and vinyl siding. I am guessing that I will be running about 35 feet of RG6 to the video distribution panel and a maximum of another 25 feet to the TV.


I'm looking for any advice/recommendations on this topic. My main goal is to use the antenna mounted antenna, from there, I am open to different ideas (different equipment, pre-amp, etc.).


Thanks in advance,

Nick


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by NGiovas_
> *
> 
> I am only considering an attic mount because I really don't like the looks of an antenna on the roof. Antennas direct recommended the XG42 directional antenna.
> 
> 
> ...I'm assuming that with a 6 degree spread between towers I should be OK with this antenna. Am I going to experience to much loss with it in the attic?*



Most people say this, but do you really notice the antennas on the rooves in your neighborhood? I put up a 54' tower on my property and my wife noticed it for exactly three days before it blended into the "normal" view.


Generally, an attic will cost you a minimum of 1/2 your signal. It can also introduce multipath. In extreme cases, the attic will block all of the signal. You may need to experiment with different locations in your attic before you find one that works. And even after you find one that works, varying weather conditions could move the "sweet spot" around.


The XG42 is a fine antenna, and it might work great for you, assuming you can fit it around your rafters. Most people go with the Channel Master bowties when they're in attics, just because they have a much shorter footprint.


You should be okay on 6 degrees unless some channel numbers are very high. Once you get around channel 50, most antennas become very narrow on their acceptance angle and if you have two that are 6 degrees apart above channel 50 that could present a problem. In that case, I'd stronly recommend a bowtie design, as they are slightly less directional on the upper end when compared to a yagi.


----------



## BrettStah




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *Most people say this, but do you really notice the antennas on the rooves in your neighborhood? I put up a 54' tower on my property and my wife noticed it for exactly three days before it blended into the "normal" view.*



Lucky you. My wife definitely notices "those big ugly antennas" all the time. She makes sure to point them out to me now, just so that I don't get any ideas about mounting one for our house, I think. I'm only a few miles from all but one of my local channels, so I'm hoping an outdoor antenna will not be required.


----------



## dswallow

Why isn't anyone offering outdoor antennas painted sky blue (or sky gray depending on where you live, or some combination pattern)?


There's certainly paints that can safely be used. And it'd make it a lot more difficult to see as a "big ugly antenna" if there was a little color/camouflage to it.


As close as you are, though, Brett, the Winegard SquareShooter probably would be ideal... and it's a compact 16"x16".


----------



## BrettStah

I'll check that one out, Doug... thanks.


----------



## barrygordon

I painted my D* Dish with no problems to match the house exterior. Hardly noticable. Do not use a metallic paint as the reflected heat on the LNB is not smart


----------



## seadoo

I have my Hitachie 65S700 hooked up OTA to local channels. NBC Signal Strength (SS) =~90, CBS~60, ABC~70, FOX~40. I actually am using an RCA 1250 table top antenna with a 45DB Att. (Walmart $30) I was amazed how much that improved the signal (about 30 units).


I rarely can see FOX. CBS cuts in and out some nights and is good some nights. When it cuts out I can see SS jumping all over the place.


1. How are these ss for receiving?

2. Why does the ss on CBS jump around some nights and not others?

3. Can I get more amp. if I used a rooftop with an amp. ? How much attentuation can I reasonably apply?


----------



## Angelo M

I'm finally getting ready to buy a UHF antenna. I'm anywhere between 40 and 65 miles from the stations. Antenna web has my needs coded as violet. My zip is 15401.


Titan TV, when I plug in the info needed, shows me being able to receive all of the digital stations with a very good signal rating. Their results look more favorable to me than antenna web. Maybe because they also recommend a certain brand of antenna.


My personal choices are CM 4248 UHF, the narrow looking antenna, or the

CM 4228, the big rectangular one. The 4228 has a longer range rating, but from what I have read the 4248 has a range rating that most feel is underrated. I would mate these with the CM 7777 preamp going to feed approximately 50-75ft of RG-6 to my HD tuner. My antenna can go as high as 40 ft but I would mount lower if I can receive the channels. What is the best of the two.


I just wanted to make the best choice based on others experiences with these 2 CM antennas, or another brand if recommended. Since this is my first antenna installation and have no prior experience with any models at all, any input would be appreciated. I know when it comes down to it, it is a crapshoot at best, I just want the best chance for success.


----------



## dswallow

If most of your stations are broadcasting from the same location, your situation sounds good. I'd put up a CM4228 and a CM7777 preamp. Frankly I'd put it on a rotator too, even though you may never use it once positioned. But as always, the higher the better. If you already have a mast in place, I'd put it right at the top.







If not, then just get it above the surrounding buildings' rooflines.


The CM 4248 is a little more directional, but I don't think there's that much practical difference that couldn't be accounted for by aiming.


----------



## cpcat

Angelo,

Probably the biggest difference between the 4228 and the 4248 is weight and wind load. According to the gain charts, the 4248 shouldn't be as good on the lower channels. As you said, though, it seems to outperform it's billing by a bit. The 4228 will place significantly more load on your mast and weighs about twice as much. Another thing to consider about the lighter 4248: If it's not enough for whatever reason, you can always get another and stack them. It's very difficult to stack the 4228. When I decided my 4228 wasn't enough, I had to purchase two more antennas for stacking instead of one.


If you think there's little chance you'd every consider a stack, maybe consider another Yagi. The Antennasdirect xg91 as well as the Winegard PR-9032 are domestics that seem to rival the Euro imports such as Televes,

Triax, etc. MaxHD who posts at this site tested the PR-9032 against the DAT 75 (Televes) and felt they were about equal.


Charles


----------



## cpcat

Angelo,

Go to http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...STS/index.html to see the

comparison test I was referring to.

Charles


----------



## seadoo

Some night my CBS station registers in the 60s on signal strengths and some night it goes in the 30s at which point I get drop outs. Is that normal to have that much change in a local HD?


----------



## BrettStah

seadoo, it's helpful to post your city and channel, so that others in your area can comment...


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by seadoo_
> *Some night my CBS station registers in the 60s on signal strengths and some night it goes in the 30s at which point I get drop outs. Is that normal to have that much change in a local HD?*



I have some stations that only come in at night, others that only come in when the weather is just so, etc. etc.


The big factors in reception are distance from the transmitter, height of transmitter, power of transmitter, gain of receiving antenna, height of receiving antenna, splitters/multiplexors on antenna line, and topography between transmitting and receiving antennas.


If your antenna is indoors, it will get better reception outdoors. If your antenna is close to the ground, it will do better if you put it up higher. If your antenna is small (has low gain) then a bigger one will help.


----------



## Signal

Antenna Selection
http://www.antennaweb.org 


Antenna Testing Information
http://www.atechfabrication.com/tests.htm 


Tower Page - see N1LO's GUYED TOWER TOPIC SUMMARY
http://www.qsl.net/n1lo/tower.htm 


Antenna Installation Guide
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmig.htm 

(Note that if a seperate ground rod is used for the antenna it must be bonded to the house grounding electrode system)


Grounding Satellite Dish and Lead-In Cables
http://www.mikeholt.com/news/archive...-2002-9-47.htm 


Code Basics: Article 810, Radio and Television Equipment
http://www.mikeholt.com/news/archive...01-10-2003.htm 


National Electrical Code - Search for "dish"
http://forums.nfpa.org:8081/necfaq/necsrch.htm 


Antenna Grounding
http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/hdrec...grounding.html 

(thanks AVS Forum member greywolf)


Preventing Damage Due to Ground Potential Difference
http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm 


PSIHQ - Grounding Requirements
http://www.psihq.com/iread/strpgrnd.htm 


PolyPhaser Technical Information
http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_technical.asp 


FCC Fact Sheet on Placement of Antennas
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Electrode1_
> *I'm in west Michigan, and I can recieve all of the Grand Rapids stations just fine. Last Thursday, I was able to recieve some DTV stations from Green Bay, Chicago and South Bend, but at about 9:45 PM on Friday they all disappeared. Since then I have not been able to recieve any of them, only an occasional blip from WSBT when the antenna is pointed at it.
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any idea what could cause this, or how I could get those stations back in? Here's what I'm using, if it matters:
> *



In addition to the tropo ducting caused by weather, ducting over water is easily caused by temperature inversions caused by the effects of warm water underneith colder air.


----------



## gmfitzmaurice

Need help in Chicago

Living in downtown Chicago.

I just hooked up a D*TV HR10-250 HD DVR. I live on the 49th floor of a high rise facing south. According to antennaweb.org all my VHS stations signals are coming from the Sears Tower at .4 miles and 35 degree compass orientation. All my UHF signals are at 1.1 miles and 206 degree compass orientation. Here's the problem. I have tried an un-amplified RS indoor antenna and then a Zenith Silver Sensor. I can't get WGN-TV DT which is on frequency 19 yet get a perfect signal from WMAQ-TV (NBC) at frequency 29 and WLS-TV (ABC) at frequency 52.

What's my problem? Too much signal, not enough, directional antenna? Do I need an outdoor antenna on my balcony? HELP!



__________________

gfitz


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gmfitzmaurice_
> *I can't get WGN-TV DT which is on frequency 19 yet get a perfect signal from WMAQ-TV (NBC) at frequency 29 and WLS-TV (ABC) at frequency 52.
> 
> What's my problem? Too much signal, not enough, directional antenna? Do I need an outdoor antenna on my balcony? HELP!
> *



Given how close you are, the problem is likely multipath. I'd go to your nearest Radio Shack and buy a variable attenuator. You might also want to pick up a $2.99 bowtie while you're there. Their return policy makes it easy to handle if things don't work. Try the attenuator first. Experiment with various settings and various aimings of the antenna (it may work better pointed in a different direction than at the tower.) If that doesn't work, try the bowtie by itself. If you still get nothing, try the attenuator + the bowtie.


----------



## JBThompson

I live 15 miles NNE of NYC in Westchester County and I am using a Stealthtenna pointed toward NYC from the peak of my roof (30 feet up). My question is this: just how much of a problem do trees have in blocking reception of UHF (HDTV) signals?


Unfortunately for me, my nearest neighbor (line of sight) has a huge tree (at least 60 ft tall) amoung others, that my antenna "looks" directly through. Does this result in a large amount of signal loss? Or, are trees transparent to UHF signals? On my HDTivo I pickup Ch 11 at close to 80 (the best) but many of the other stations are much lower, and Ch 4 is at 4 to 10 (the worst).


Would a line amp help, as I probably have close to 75-80 feet of cable from antenna to HDTivo? Unfortunately, I have no where else on my property that I can see around this tree.


----------



## cpcat

JBThompson,

Trees can definitely block UHF signals to some degree, but not as much as say a mountain or a building. The Stealthtenna is an O.K. VHF performer but pretty weak for UHF. A preamp (not a line amp) will only help if there is decent signal to begin with. You could try a preamp first (Channelmaster 7777 or Channelmaster Spartan II would be two choices for UHF/VHF) but you may find a better antenna will be necessary such as a CM 4221 which is a good medium range UHF performer. You can always continue to use the Stealthtenna as your VHF antenna. Both of the abovementioned preamps will allow for separate UHF and VHF inputs. The other option would be to go with the 4221/Stealthtenna using a vhf/uhf combiner without a preamp. You might even try the 4221 alone if your vhf channels are high band (7-13) as it will provide some vhf gain as well.


Whether to get the antenna first or try the preamp first is a hard call. I think with 80 ft. of cable you may need a preamp no matter what at least for UHF. The Spartan has less gain and might be better in your case with fairly close proximity to the towers (less chance for overloading the preamp).


Sorry, I can't be more definite, but alot of this is educated guessing and trial-and-error.


The reason to use the preamp instead of the line amp is you'd rather amplify the signal close to the source before it is attenuated by the coax run.



Charles


----------



## JBThompson

cpcat,


Thanks for the quick reply. I feel hopeful. And, I used the wrong terminology, using line amp instead of pre-amp. I would mount it at the antenna to provide better signal through to run of cable.


I have no interest in VHF channels in all I am looking to see are local HD stations, although the lowest for NYC is channel 12. I was recommended the Stealthtenna for HD/UHF. Guess some bad info.


I will first go with a new antenna for UHF. the SquareShooter SS-1000 has been recommended to me although, I am not sure if it is good for 20 miles?!? Do you know this antenna?


Thanks again!


----------



## JBThompson

cpcat,


I should have said 4.1 and 11.1 for the HD signals I am receiving. Channel 11.1 is on VHF 12, the best signal. Channel 4.1 is on UHF 28, the worst. The range I need to pull in is channel 12 to 56. Channel 2.1 on UHF 56 comes in strong too but not like 11.1 on VHF channel 12.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Where is George?



Huh?










Anyway, with ch. 12 as your lowest channel I'd bet the 4221 would work well for you. I don't know much about the SS but do know it's about 3-4x more expensive than the 4221. If you end up trying a preamp, you can get the Spartan at Lowe's (at least they carry it in my area). The 4221 is available at multiple online retailers and probably locally for you if you have a CM dealer. Lowe's doesn't carry it, as far as I know.


Antennasdirect has the DB4 which is a little fancier 4-bay (like the 4221) and has an integral PCB balun which is nice. It's more expensive than the 4221 but still considerably less than the SS.


Good Luck

Charles

Edit: OOPS I checked and the DB4 doesn't have the PCB balun, you have to go to the xg91 for that.


----------



## cpanther1

I live 30 miles north of Wilmington NC. (air miles)


I have an Zium Spirlateral Air Dish. Omni Direction


On analog I picked up poor signals beyond 65 miles.


I had Voom installed yesterday combined with my OTA antenna.


This is strange to me why but here goes.


I can not receive any of the Wilmington stations. Their Tower distance is between 32 and 43 miles.


I do receive the following stations perfectly.


WITN-7(NBC) and WNCT-9(CBS) same tower 56 miles NNE

WCTI-12(ABC) 44 miles ENE

WUNM-19(PBS) 38 miles NE

WPXU-35(PAX) 37 miles NE


The only one I need from wilmington is WSFX-26(FOX) 32 miles ESE

WECT-6(NBC) and WUNJ-39(PBS) same tower 36 miles SE


----------



## OneArchitect

This sounds interesting. I have recently experimented with a small omni-directional antenna. While distant signals don't receive as well as nearer ones, I have found something interesting.


At least one OTA station (1 analog and 3 digital) channels that don't receiver well (at least the digital ones) in ANY direction. But I receive them fine on the less sensitive omni-directional antenna. The directional antenna may be either saturated with signal or is not stable due to multi-path. I can never get a decent picture anywhere on the compass.


The omni-directional antenna gets all 3 digital channels of this station fine. I have wondered if antennas coupled with the digital transmit/receive systems respond somewhat differently from analog signals to multi-path signals. Perhaps there are some other issues related to some sort of polarization I am not aware of...


I have searched the web for any info on 'spiral omni-directional antenna' and variations. I have not found anything along the lines if the model you spoke of or anything much directly related to television. And omni-directional antenna that can get some content out to 65 miles sounds interesting. Can you provide a link to something about that antenna on the web?


----------



## cpanther1

Making Post # 3 so I can post the URL for you.


----------



## cpanther1

The link for the company where I bought the Spilateral antenna

www.goxium.com


----------



## OneArchitect

Though they use the terminology 'omni-directional' the Xium Air does not appear to be an omni-directional antenna... However, I may not understand their technology. Since all the stations you receive are more or less NE and the ones you don't receive are SE you might consider rotating the antenna about 90 degrees to the south and note what difference that makes to your reception (of all the stations).


----------



## OneArchitect

The Xium 'Spilateral" appears such that it could be omni-directional...however the addition of the parabolic dish for the XiumAir model would tend to make me think it would be less than omni-directional


----------



## cpanther1

In analog it picked up various strength signals in a 360% and the ones that I pick up digital were worse on analog except for WCTI.


I have moved it in every orientation today. I lost one that I get now when doing that.


My thinking is that these stations have a lower ERP. I may add another amp though that may not be an answer either. The only one that I think I need is WSFX26 (FOX) Most of the Carolina Panthers games are carried over FOX.


I just wanted to to be rid of a rotor


I could add another 5 feet in elevation which would get it to 24.5 feet above the ground.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpanther1_
> *I have an Zium Spirlateral Air Dish. Omni Direction
> 
> 
> I do receive the following stations perfectly.
> 
> 
> WITN-7(NBC) and WNCT-9(CBS) same tower 56 miles NNE
> 
> WCTI-12(ABC) 44 miles ENE
> 
> WUNM-19(PBS) 38 miles NE
> 
> WPXU-35(PAX) 37 miles NE
> 
> 
> The only one I need from wilmington is WSFX-26(FOX) 32 miles ESE
> 
> WECT-6(NBC) and WUNJ-39(PBS) same tower 36 miles SE*



Honestly, I'm astounded you get anything with that antenna. There ain't no such thing as "spilateral" technology, and as an antenna design, the XiumAir is a dog. Even so, I wouldn't expect you to get WSFX at this time.


This information should help you understand why WSFX isn't coming in. 5kw is pathetic. (From the FCC Database)


WSFX-TV NC WILMINGTON USA (Digital)


Licensee: SOUTHEASTERN MEDIA HOLDINGS, INC.

Service Designation: DS Special Temporary Authority (digital)


Channel: 30 566 - 572 MHz

File No.: BDSTA-20020311ABT Facility ID number: 72871

CDBS Application ID No.: 598625


34° 13' 33.00" N Latitude

78° 55' 20.00" W Longitude (NAD 27)


Polarization:

Effective Radiated Power (ERP): 5. kW ERP

Antenna Height Above Average Terrain: 38. meters HAAT

Antenna Height Above Mean Sea Level: 43.6 meters AMSL

Antenna Height Above Ground Level: 0. meters AGL


----------



## cpanther1

Yes, I tend to agree with you some what. I was pixielation and dropped signal on all OTA except 19 & 35.


I could probably do good except for #26 with a hi gain UHF antenna with preamp if needed with a rotor. Probably get Fox50 in Raleigh.


I guess the remote controlled rotors are not as worrisome as the old style.


I will have to do some research on this.


----------



## obie3612

I live less than one mile from three HDTV broadcast towers in NW Washington, DC. Can I use an indoor antenna and which one would be best? WAF is involved. Attic mount is possible. I saw a Jensen amplified indoor antenna on Radio Shack website that looked pretty good.


Obie


----------



## sregener

Avoid all amplified antennas. You're too close for them to do any good, obie.


Try the Zenith Silver Sensor (Circuit City has it.) That's probably your best bet for an indoor antenna.


----------



## OneArchitect

Rabbit Ears would probably work.


----------



## cpanther1




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpanther1_
> *Yes, I tend to agree with you some what. I was pixielation and dropped signal on all OTA except 19 & 35.
> 
> 
> I could probably do good except for #26 with a hi gain UHF antenna with preamp if needed with a rotor. Probably get Fox50 in Raleigh.
> 
> 
> I guess the remote controlled rotors are not as worrisome as the old style.
> 
> 
> I will have to do some research on this.*




I purchased a Channelmaster 3020 and new digital controlled rotor today. I will try my Radio Shack inline 10db amp. I had good service years ago with this combination with a smaller antenna. I will do the installation later this week.


If this does not do the trick I will then try a 7777 preamp.


----------



## cpanther1

I just talked with Voom about my local channels and it is not my lack of antenna. The FCC has allowed the Voom receiver to have but one local market. Their approval of all available markets is probably in late 04 to early 05. Yuck-yuck


I just have the Greenville/Washington/Jacksonville local area though I am closer to the Wilmington area.


If anyone has more than one local market availability with Voom please send me a PM.


----------



## cpcat

Your reception of digital TV OTA is just that, OTA reception. The VOOM receiver is doing nothing to disallow specific channels OTA. If you can't get it, it's because you're not receiving enough signal.


Charles


----------



## cpanther1

The Voom receiver according to Voom is not allowed to decode but one local market by order of the FCC


Do I understand why the FCC rules so? NO


No more than I can understand their position on true Broadband.


If you have Voom and you have more than one local market I would appreciate any of you let me know.


Thanks


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpanther1_
> *The Voom receiver according to Voom is not allowed to decode but one local market by order of the FCC.*



This is just plain wrong. The FCC has no rules or regulations about what an OTA receiver (which is what the Voom receiver works as when watching broadcast signals) is allowed to tune or not to tune. If somebody at Voom is blaming the FCC, they're just trying to stay out of the firing line. They may have designed their receiver to work this way, but it isn't because of any FCC regulations.


----------



## cpanther1

Now Voom says my personal antenna is the fault. Not.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpanther1_
> *Now Voom says my personal antenna is the fault. Not.*



That's where I'd put the blame.


What's the rated gain of your Xium Air antenna? What does its polar pattern look like? They don't say.


For long-distance, reliable reception of digital signals, you need a high gain, highly directional antenna with a high front-to-back ratio. The Xium Air has none of these.


The fact that you get anything with it is more of a miracle to me than anything else.


----------



## cpcat

cpanther 1,

My advice to you is to get another antenna. For UHF the CM 4228 is a solid performer up to about 60 miles. Antennasdirect DB8 is a similar design and they have many other quality antennas on their website but they are a little more expensive. If you need VHF, look at Antennacraft. The low VHF will require a huge antenna for long distance, but the Y10 7-13 is excellent in the high band (7-13) and it's size is very manageable. You just can't go against the laws of physics and the usual rule applies that if it seems "to good to be true", it likely is.


VOOM is typically very responsive to their customers in regards to providing adequate OTA reception. They have provided others here with bigger/better antennas when necessary at no cost. See if they'd be willing to do the same for you.


Charles

Edit: I just noticed that earlier you'd said you bought a CM3020. That's a huge antenna, but it should also be a huge improvement. The reason it's huge if for the low vhf. If your cable run is significant, say 50 ft or more, consider a preamp esp. for UHF frequencies.


----------



## cpanther1

Both of my daughters are home this Friday and Saturday. They will help me get the large antenna that I have had for 8 years and move it over to my other mount and check it.


I received good analog signals in a 360 degree range with the Xium so it must not be good with 360 degree reception of Digital signals.


PS. I have a Channel Master digital rotor control programmable remote so that will not be so bad.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpanther1_
> *
> 
> I received good analog signals in a 360 degree range with the Xium so it must not be good with 360 degree reception of Digital signals.
> *



It depends on what a "good analog" signal looks like to you. If your UHF reception from similar distances and locations is relatively snow and ghost-free, then the odds are that the receiver isn't very good. (As a matter of fact, the Voom is a known dog of a performer for OTA reception.) If you have minor ghosting, that can be more than enough to kill digital reception with a poorly designed receiver. Any strong ghosts or enough snow to make reading text difficult is enough to knock out digital reception.


Omnidirectional antennas do absolutely nothing to reduce multipath (ghosts) and thus are usually inadequate for digital reception.


----------



## Electrode1

This may be a stupid question with an obvious answer, but I'm going to ask anyway:


If I had an antenna connected to its preamp by a 12 foot cable of any given type (in particular, twin lead or RG6 coax), would there be a significant improvement in performance if I replaced that with a 3 foot cable of the same type?


I ask because in my situation, such a change would require quite a bit of work (and money) but if it would yeild a major increase in performance it could be done.


----------



## litzdog911




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Electrode1_
> *This may be a stupid question with an obvious answer, but I'm going to ask anyway:
> 
> 
> If I had an antenna connected to its preamp by a 12 foot cable of any given type (in particular, twin lead or RG6 coax), would there be a significant improvement in performance if I replaced that with a 3 foot cable of the same type?
> 
> 
> I ask because in my situation, such a change would require quite a bit of work (and money) but if it would yeild a major increase in performance it could be done.*



It's very doubtful that shortening the cable from 12' to 3' would make any difference.


----------



## cpcat

Electrode1,

Shortening the cable between the antenna and the preamp is always a good idea. However, the amount of improvement you'll see is difficult to predict. You should see more improvement on higher frequencies and less at lower ones (i.e. vhf) as attenuation in the line will increase with frequency. If you're borderline on a channel in the high uhf range, it might be worth it but the only way to know would be to try. Dxers say to couple the antenna directly to the preamp. I've never been sure quite how they do that.


Twinlead has less problems with attenuation but more with interference and stray signal pickup. You're supposed to twist it over a long run I think to maximize its performance. I saw a twist-per-distance reccomendation somewhere but can't remember. Maybe someone else who uses it can help.


Charles


----------



## Electrode1

Perhaps I'll stick with my current cable arrangement for now.


On a completely unrelated note, I've been thinking of taking down my "local" antenna and replacing it with something that will provide more VHF gain (I'm not so concerned about UHF, I use a CM 4228 for that). One possibility that really caught my attention is the Magnavox MANT-902. The manufacturer claims it has a 100 mile range, and Spectravox sells it for $32. Does anyone have any experience with this antenna?


----------



## cpcat

Electrode1,

That looks like a knock-off CM3020. The front part is for UHF which you said you don't need and the reason it's about 7 feet wide is for the low vhf band

(2-6). If you only need the high band, a real good option is an Antennacraft or Winegard high band VHF antenna (7-13). It's size is much more manageable and it actually outperforms those monster combo antennas on those channels. There are also dedicated wide band vhf antennas available from Winegard and Jerrold as well as cut channel versions from the same. The lower the channel, the bigger the antenna.

Charles


----------



## Electrode1

Actually, low band VHF is quite important. There is a local channel 2 that is quite hard to pull in, and there are numerous 4's, 5's and 6's across the lake.


----------



## Rack

 http://www.starkelectronic.com/del937.htm 

If it's low-band VHF you want, then few can beat the power of the VU-937. It has solid gain on all bands, even without the VU-8PZ addon.


----------



## seadoo

I get signal strength of 60-65 on my local CBS, but the sound keeps dropping out while the picture remains strong with no pixilation. I have to go down to below 30 before picture drops out. I monitor the signal strength during drop outs and it remains in the 60-65 range. None of my other locals are doing this. Can somebody help me explain and suggest what to do ? Thanks


----------



## cpcat

Electrode1,

You'll need to go with a wide band VHF only antenna then. Jerrold makes two sizes and I believe Winegard does also. Here's the Jerrold: http://www.starkelectronic.com/delhi.htm 

There are two sizes. They are both big.


Charles


----------



## Electrode1

The Jerrold VIP-307SR looks interesting, albeit a little expensive. I suppose I have to spend some cash to get decent equipment.


----------



## giantcycle

How big is the shipping carton on a ChannelMaster 4228 antenna? Just wondering if I can get it through an attic hatch. . . . (long story)










Doug


----------



## cpcat

It's shipped in one piece and the carton is just slightly larger than the antenna. It is possible to disassemble it if needed but it's not easy. Part of it is riveted together so you have to replace the rivets with nuts/bolts when you put it back together.

Charles


----------



## cpanther1

I have Voom and something strange.


On OTA I can only receive one local market( farther than the market closest to me.)


Does anyone else have Voom and receive more than one OTA market area?



Phone Rep 1. FCC prohibits more than one local area.


Phone Rep 2. I should be able to view all Stations my antenna receives.


Question online. The same as phone Rep 1.


Voom installer. The Channel decoding should come in a nightly download from Voom. I should let them know of all the Stations I can receive.


I sent a message to the FCC last Tuesday. I have not yet received a reply.


----------



## Chucka

I am planning to purchase the Antennasdirect DB8 soon (or equivalent). These are UHF antennas. I am located in Shelton, CT (06484) and I have to be able to receive Channels 10 (very strong signal in my area) and Channel 12 . I have been told by someone that these antennas should be able to pick up these VHF (high) frequencies despite it being a UHF antenna.


Does anyone have any experience in using a UHF antenna to pick up (high) VHF digital signals?


Also, would anyone suggest a different brand of equivalent antenna over Antennasdirect DB8?


Thanks


ChuckA


----------



## Electrode1

Should be fine. Using a Channel Master 4228 (very similar to antennasdirect DB8), I can pick up channels 7 and 11 almost as well as with a VHF/UHF/FM antenna. 7 is about 30 miles away, 11 is about 10 miles away.


----------



## Chucka

Electrode1


Are you using a pre amplifier. I am planning on using the CM 7777. Should I have both the UHF and VHF linked or should I have it set to UHF only when using only one UHF antenna?


ChuckA


----------



## cpcat

Chucka,

You should hook your antenna to the "UHF/combined" input and be sure the switch internally is on "combined". Otherwise, you won't get any VHF channels.


Charles


----------



## bsr2002

I have a Radio Shack VU-90XR 26 Elements outside antenna (Covers Yellow to Green Areas, no pre-amp) . I get the 3 local stations with PBS and Univision crystal clear. I wanted to add FOX and PAX. According to Atenna Web I should be able to add up to 6 more staions via UHF.


So, I bought a Philips/Magnavox MANT902 36 Elements Outdoor Antenna that is supposed to cover Yellow thru Violet Areas, no pre-amp. I installed it and tried it out and all my channels (even the ones that were clear w/ the other antenna) turned out really snowy and unclear. As far as hook up, I left the cables and everything else alone and just replaced the antenna on the mast.


Can anyone tell me if I did anything wrong? Or why a more powerful antenna would get a weaker signal than the smaller one?


Zip code: 78418

Street: Meadow Ridge

City/State: Corpus Christi, TX

Terrain: Flat



__________________


----------



## cpcat

bsr2002,

There are several possibilities. Assuming the specs for these two antennas are correct you should expect at least equal or most likely better performance from the larger one. One possibility would be that conditions changed during the time you tried the larger one. This happens constantly and is very frustrating when trying to compare different setups for performance. Also, check the aim of the antenna and be sure it's aimed properly. Higher gain antennas often have narrower beamwidths which makes aiming more critical. Check to see that the height of installation hasn't changed. Finally, check the balun which came with the second antenna. Try the balun from the first and make sure that's not the difference.


Charles


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by bsr2002_
> *
> 
> So, I bought a Philips/Magnavox MANT902 36 Elements Outdoor Antenna that is supposed to cover Yellow thru Violet Areas, no pre-amp. I installed it and tried it out and all my channels (even the ones that were clear w/ the other antenna) turned out really snowy and unclear.*



There is no way the Philips is good to Violet. The UHF section is a joke. Look in this thread and forum for many highly recommended UHF antennas.


----------



## michaelk




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by giantcycle_
> *How big is the shipping carton on a ChannelMaster 4228 antenna? Just wondering if I can get it through an attic hatch. . . . (long story)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doug*



as CPCAT said- the 4228 can be basically broken in half- just drill out the rivets on the bars that connect the 2 halves together and then once you are in the attic replace the rivets with nuts and bolts.


BUT if you are within 30 (or maybe even 50) miles of your towers and they have decent power levels I would go to the sears (others have found it at circuit city) and pick up a silver sensor and try that first. If it doesn't work then return it and try the 4228.


I'm actually surprised no one has seriously mentioned the silver sensor in this thread before other than one mention of an 'inside antenna'


I got the 4228 and drilled out the rivets and wrestled the 2 halves through the hatch then put it all together back in the attic. Got it to work pretty well but then i wanted to try getting some stations from another direction and didn't want to wait a week to get another 4228 in the mail so a picked up a silver sensor at the local sears. I actually walked past the thing 5 times looking for it because it is so darn small, i couldn't imagine that it would work. Got it home and surprise surprise it works bascially as well as the 4228 for getting Philadelphia at about 30 miles and for getting the high powered stations out of NYC at about 50 miles. The 4228 can get one more of the mediumish stations out of NYC but thats it. Shortly NYC stations should be competing a combiner project and I suspect the silver sensor will get all the stations that the 4228 does at that point.



I was very pleasantly surprised. And for something that is such trial and error buying something in person i can return is alot better then having to wait a few days to get the parts for 'plan B'. Also theres no need to figure out a mast in the attic to mount the silver sensor- it basically has a base on it like you would place it on top of your book shelf or something- so i threw up a piece of scrap wood for a shelve instead of having to make the 2 trips to the Home Depot and rat shack to get all the parts i needed to make the mast for the 4228.


Above results in my attic with a CM 7777 pre amp running probably 60-70 feet of cable to a terk 5x8 multiswitch. From there anther 15-20 feet to a diplexor and then into a HD directivo.


(also for more info- i am totally anal so i first connected the hdtivo to about 20 foot of cable and connected that directly through the attic hatch to the preamp on the antenna. I wrote down all the results and then checked again after adding each component and length of wire and basically got the same numbers GIVE or take 2-3 points on the signal strength meter)


----------



## michaelk

i'm looking for some knowledge on combining 2 antenna's. If you see my post above once NYC gets its act together with the combiner, I should be able to get pretty much everything from Philly -OR- NYC on a single antenna just fine. But I would like to get both- having a tivo i cant predict which way to aim and might even need both directions at the same time - a rotator isnt really an option so I need to combine 2 antenna's. I'm hoping someone has a little insight before i try 110 trial and error steps.


A pile of questions.....


I'm not really in a situation to combine a 2nd antenna for just one channel like the jointenna's do rather I need to wholesale combine like 8-10 channels from one antenna with 8-10 from another. I've read and/or posted to the NYC thread, the Philly thread, and the central NJ thread but haven't gotten much luck yet- although have gotten some replies that make me think its very possible- but no one has tried to get all the possible channels to work at once and it doenst seem impossible to me from a technical perspective. I pass my local cable office occasionally and they have all kinds of antennas aon a tower that look like plain old radio shcak specials aiming all over the place- they must combine then somehow?



I do have an issue with an analog channel from NYC killing a digital from Philly so i almost definately need to get a notch filter for channel 31. Once idea i had was to get a jointenna to add channel 31 to the NYC feed- but just don't add it so that 31 would get stripped from the NYC antenna and then combine after the jointenna. I'm also wondering if in a perfect world would it be best to get a bunch of notches and just kill off the unneeded frequencies on each cable before the diplexor. But looking around i cant seem to find any easy way to do that- the jointennas really don't seem well suited to such a plan. I searched and searched and found this site that says i can basically cut a length of cable that dead ends to a tee to kill off unneeded frequencies- i was thinking of maybe adding a 5 way splitter and using the 3 unused tees to kill off the 3 channels that would be best to kill. Is that necessary or overkill? http://www.homewiringandmore.com/int...utions.html#20 

Searching around I find a few references to kits used to steal cable tv where you can built your own notch filters to kill certain blocking signals for like $15 and I would do that but it seems the kits only work up to channel 22 and since i'm all over the UHF band that wouldn't help me much- got an email into the people that make the 'educational kits' to see if they have different parts for killing off UHF in the spaces between 22 and 69.


I am also a little confused about the whole same length cable issue. Seems the mantra is to make sure both antennas have the same length cable before the combiner but then then i read that was only relevant for multipath- however i think i am in pretty much perfect luck to that since my antennas aim almost opposite directions but not quite180 and i can use the aluminum siding from the side of the attic to block the rear's so each antenna really only will pick up where it is aimed. I tried combining but didn't exactly get stellar results- i tried with with same length cables and without- so not sure if thats an issue. And for the record what exactly is "same length" can i trust 2 '3 foot cables' from rat shack or does an extra milimeter that wasnt clipped oft he center conductor on one cable going to ruin the whole thing. Also the only way I can think to really get teh exact same lenght is to have 2 indentical antenna's - where do i measure from on a CM4228 versus the silver senor for example- or do I need to just get 2 of the SS's or 4228's? Any thoughts about the whole same length issue? What happens if i start adding in nothc filters- how to a calculate lengths?


Next I thought the combiner i use might be an issue- i first tried it with a splitter that Bellatlantic used on my Brother in Laws house years ago when they installed Directv to split the OTA analog antenna so I thought that would be high quality (long story there) . But then I read a splitter isn't exactly the same as a splitter/combiner. So I picked one up a radio shack that says 'splitter/combiner' and plan to use that- maybe i'll get better results. Any idea what to look for there- radio shack has like 4-5 choices so i just got the most expensive. Then I see at werner electronics that cm makes a combiner- do I need that? I've read that by combing the 2 antennas I will wind up transmitting some of the philly power out of the NYC antenna and vice-versa. Is there something like a diode that you can put in the combiner to stop the signal from backtracking up the other leg?


I'm just fiddling around now- an hour or 2 here and there but once NYC gets the combiner done and I have lots of choices in both directions i hope to be able to figure this all out.


I've searched around here and all over the web and theres lots of info about combining 2 or more antennas to get one source but i can find anything really except join-tennas to get 2 different sources. Not afriad to read so if you have links fire away


THANKS

Mike


----------



## cpcat

Michaelk,

Have you tried taking the screen off of a CM4228 to see how many you can get all at once through one antenna? If you could get most with one antenna, it would greatly simplify things for you and maybe you could go the mast filter route for the ones you lack. Also, VHF and UHF channels are easily separable and there's no problem in using antennas in different directions there. In addition to the jointenna product, also look at http://www.triax.dk/ifs/files/triax/..._Combiners.jsp 

Triax makes just about anything you'd need I think. It's just a matter of figuring it all out and deciding the best way to do it. A potentially difficult problem will arise if you try to separate channels that are very close, say only one or two numbers different.


Cable lengths are only important if you are stacking antennas i.e. combining identical antennas for more gain, directivity, etc. pointing in the same direction. The multipath is so bad with dissimilar antennas in different directions that cable length is the least of your worries. That's why the filters have to be used. In other words, you can't get the same station on two different antennas or it will corrupt the signal with multipath.

You'll have to figure out a complicated filtering scheme if you have multiple channels scattered up and down in frequency on more than one antenna.


My understanding of how the Cable Co.'s do this is with single-channel antennas with channel-specific amplifiers and filters.


Good Luck

Charles


----------



## michaelk




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *Michaelk,
> 
> Have you tried taking the screen off of a CM4228 to see how many you can get all at once through one antenna? If you could get most with one antenna, it would greatly simplify things for you and maybe you could go the mast filter route for the ones you lack. Also, VHF and UHF channels are easily separable and there's no problem in using antennas in different directions there. In addition to the jointenna product, also look at http://www.triax.dk/ifs/files/triax/..._Combiners.jsp
> 
> Triax makes just about anything you'd need I think. It's just a matter of figuring it all out and deciding the best way to do it. A potentially difficult problem will arise if you try to separate channels that are very close, say only one or two numbers different.
> 
> 
> Cable lengths are only important if you are stacking antennas i.e. combining identical antennas for more gain, directivity, etc. pointing in the same direction. The multipath is so bad with dissimilar antennas in different directions that cable length is the least of your worries. That's why the filters have to be used. In other words, you can't get the same station on two different antennas or it will corrupt the signal with multipath.
> 
> You'll have to figure out a complicated filtering scheme if you have multiple channels scattered up and down in frequency on more than one antenna.
> 
> 
> My understanding of how the Cable Co.'s do this is with single-channel antennas with channel-specific amplifiers and filters.
> 
> 
> Good Luck
> 
> Charles*



great idea to pull the screen- there is a spot wher ei can position the 4228 and get a little something off the back, so maybe just pulling the screen is all i need.


THanks for the link- looks like a great source.


if i get it all to work, i'll be sure to report back.


Mike


----------



## bec

I have removed the screens on the 4228 and mounted on the roof. There is a large difference in sensitivity of the front and back. Does anyone know if this is because of the metal mast the 2228 is mounted to? Bruce


----------



## Perel

I live right outside Washington, DC (zip 22101) and antennaweb says that I'm in a "red" reception zone for all the channels I care about recieving in DTV. I am in a neighborhood with lots of trees. The stations are listed as being 5.1 to 8.5 miles away, and all the stations I want to recieve are mapped as being in almost the same direction. The map function on antennaweb has two lines that encompass all of those stations, and they're pictured ~10 degrees apart, so I'd guess a 10-15 degree arc for getting everything without repositioning. All of my digital OTAs (don't care about analog OTA) are UHF.


I've tried several OTA antennas so far, and am still seeing enough analog ghosting to kill DTV reception. My HD reciever is a Samsung SIR-T360 - not the best for OTA, not the worst either from what I've read here.


I first tried an old VHF/UHF antenna that's been mounted on my house for quite a few years (left by the previous tenants, no one's ever gotten around to taking it down). The rotator's busted, so I can't reposition it. I don't know the exact model - I doubt it's anything fancy, my guess from the other old equipment it was attached to in the ceiling is that it's a Radio Shack antenna. (The other signal distribution stuff was all Archer) I wasn't even sure if it would work, but it does pull in a signal. I can't get the ghosting to go away, though.


So I tried, again not expecting any great success, a set of rabbitears. PQ is *very* similar to the large rooftop antenna.


I just picked up a new RS U-75R UHF-only outdoor antenna, which is currently indoors. I'm hoping to avoid a roof mount if possible, since it will be a pain to get it up there. I don't feel comfortable working on a sloped roof.


It picks up UHF a little better. (Actually, it pulls in VHF about as well as the others did, too, even though it's "UHF-only". Pretty much confirms that both of the other antennas are useless IMO.) I am still getting *severe* multipath though, and DTV channels won't lock.


What's my next step? Would a good indoor antenna be better than using the U-75R indoors? I was planning on taking the new antenna up to the attic and doing an attic mount, but if the multipath is *severe* inside, it seems that this just isn't going to work. I could try to pick up a Silver Sensor or something if that would be my best testing option.. part of the reason I got the RS antenna was because of their liberal return policy. I'd rather not shell out for an antenna I can't take back if it doesn't work out - I still have *no* digital OTA channels coming in. I suppose the Silver Sensor is a returnable one, so if it has a good chance of working I'll pick one up and give it a try. I'm surprised that the U-75R has almost as much trouble rejecting multipath as a set of rabbitears though.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Perel_
> *
> 
> What's my next step? Would a good indoor antenna be better than using the U-75R indoors? I was planning on taking the new antenna up to the attic and doing an attic mount, but if the multipath is *severe* inside, it seems that this just isn't going to work. I could try to pick up a Silver Sensor or something if that would be my best testing option.. part of the reason I got the RS antenna was because of their liberal return policy. I'd rather not shell out for an antenna I can't take back if it doesn't work out - I still have *no* digital OTA channels coming in. I suppose the Silver Sensor is a returnable one, so if it has a good chance of working I'll pick one up and give it a try. I'm surprised that the U-75R has almost as much trouble rejecting multipath as a set of rabbitears though.*



Okay, multipath is hell, and you're so close that you're going to have to fight it pretty strong.


My first piece of advice to you is to take that U75R back to Radio Shack. They're not all that great, and the corner reflector is probably part of why you're having trouble with multipath - they're not very directional.


While you're there, pick up a $2.99 UHF bowtie antenna and a variable attenuator. Experiment around a little bit and see if you can't knock those ghosts down to a minimum with that combo. As close as you are, gain isn't the problem.


If all else fails, you might want to try the Winegard SquareShooter. It should be easy enough to install without going all the way to the peak of your roof, and some report that it does wonders resisting multipath.


----------



## Perel

Okay, it'll be going back soon - probably tomorrow. I've continued tinkering, and it's now in the attic pointed at a window that's in the right direction for the stations I'm trying to recieve, according to antennaweb. Up here, I get most of my stations. There's only one network along the same azimuth as the others, and I'm intermittently picking up two others - an additional PBS station that's 60 degrees out of arc and 'Mhz', which AFAICT isn't listed in my antennaweb stations. (Edit: They renamed themselves and I missed it in the list. The station is listed, but it's over 150 degrees out of the 'main stations arc'.)


The odd thing is, I tried hooking a 20dB cable amp up right after the antenna. It seems to help slightly. (It's an old amp I had from having to use a very screwed up MDU CATV system - I had to amp my signal just to get my Tivo to lock on - that I had to use back in college.) I'm really baffled as to why it would _help_ if my signals are strong - maybe it's just not sensitive enough to pick up the weaker ghost signals, and is partially drowning them out? Or maybe I'm just imagining things, and I had the antenna aligned better when the amp is in place.


I'll get a variable attenuator and a cheap bowtie and see if that helps. Moving upstairs *did* help a good bit - I forgot to mention in my previous post that this is a masonry house and tends to block cellphone signals fairly well unless you're standing right next to a window. I'm hoping that maybe an attic antenna will overcome that, as the attic walls aren't brick.


----------



## Perel

Additional item: Tried the rabbitears in the *attic*, and they appear to pull in channels almost the same as the 75U. Also, with it being night, both antennas can mostly lock the aforementioned PBS and Mhz stations - I get occasional dropouts instead of occasional picture.


----------



## bigkev4123

i am looking for a indoor antenna that can recieve hdtv broadcast well from 15-35 miles.......i live in battle creek, mi....and help would be much appreciated


----------



## pepar




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by bigkev4123_
> *i am looking for a indoor antenna that can recieve hdtv broadcast well from 15-35 miles.......i live in battle creek, mi....and help would be much appreciated*



Go HERE and click on "Choose an antenna" - follow the instructions.


----------



## bigkev4123

thanks but this really isnt what i was looking for...i was looking for opinions on indoor antennas that people have used for this same range in distance that i need(15-35 miles) any more help would be great


----------



## pepar




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by bigkev4123_
> *thanks but this really isnt what i was looking for...i was looking for opinions on indoor antennas that people have used for this same range in distance that i need(15-35 miles) any more help would be great*



OK, I understand. But unless you get the opinion of your neighbor, most likely other opinions will not be relevant to your situation/location. Everybody's geography and surroundings will be different.


----------



## seadoo

I can get 5 of the 6 OTA signals by pointing my antenna in one direction. The 6th one has to be pointed 90 degrees away and I lose the other 5. I have tried a preamp and that helps a little but still I can only get either 1 or 5 and it really degrades my analog signal. Is there a good multidirection antenna set up by which I can get all 6. The 5 in one direction are about 17 miles away while the 6th (FOX) is 40 Miles away. I am trying to make it livable for my wife so that she doesnt have to rotate antenna between the two set ups.


The alternativeI was thinking was two antennas connect through an AB switch so that all you have to do is switch rather than rotate.


----------



## pepar




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by seadoo_
> *I can get 5 of the 6 OTA signals by pointing my antenna in one direction. The 6th one has to be pointed 90 degrees away and I lose the other 5. I have tried a preamp and that helps a little but still I can only get either 1 or 5 and it really degrades my analog signal. Is there a good multidirection antenna set up by which I can get all 6. The 5 in one direction are about 17 miles away while the 6th (FOX) is 40 Miles away. I am trying to make it livable for my wife so that she doesnt have to rotate antenna between the two set ups.
> 
> 
> The alternativeI was thinking was two antennas connect through an AB switch so that all you have to do is switch rather than rotate.*



Yes, there are omni-directional antennas, but they sacrifice gain in order mto "hear" from all directions. If your stations are close enough and the gain of the directional antenna is not needed, an omni will probably pull the five and the one. I like the idea of two antennas, but someone more knowledgeable tan I will need to comment on that configuration. A switch would surely work, but perhaps a combiner could be used instead of a switch . .


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by seadoo_
> *I can get 5 of the 6 OTA signals by pointing my antenna in one direction. The 6th one has to be pointed 90 degrees away and I lose the other 5. I have tried a preamp and that helps a little but still I can only get either 1 or 5 and it really degrades my analog signal. Is there a good multidirection antenna set up by which I can get all 6. The 5 in one direction are about 17 miles away while the 6th (FOX) is 40 Miles away. I am trying to make it livable for my wife so that she doesnt have to rotate antenna between the two set ups.
> 
> 
> The alternativeI was thinking was two antennas connect through an AB switch so that all you have to do is switch rather than rotate.*



Look into a Channel Master "Jointenna" designed for the frequency that's off-axis. Hook up a second antenna, plug both into the Jointenna and you should be fine. Keep in mind, though, that while the Jointenna is rated for one channel, there is some "bleed" a couple of channels in each direction. So if your stations are on adjoinging channels, you might still have trouble.


----------



## seadoo

Ill give jointenna a try. My stations are at 27,28,30,58.60


The off axis one is at 38 so hopefully that is far enough off. If it works my wife will thank you even though she won't know it.


----------



## Chucka

Does anyone make Antenna Rotors other than Channel Master ? I am looking for something that moves even a little faster than 1 RPM. I saw within the last month a press release for a antenna rotor that has one degree accuracy is setting direction but a search has not found mention of this product.


Chucka


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Chucka_
> *Does anyone make Antenna Rotors other than Channel Master ? I am looking for something that moves even a little faster than 1 RPM. I saw within the last month a press release for a antenna rotor that has one degree accuracy is setting direction but a search has not found mention of this product.*



Channel Master's remote controlled rotor is probably what they were talking about. You can set it by 1 degree increments.


I don't know about faster, but check out Ham radio groups for other rotor options. You'll probably spend a lot more than $100 to get one, but their stuff defines "industrial grade."


----------



## cpcat

Look at http://www.eham.net/reviews/products/24 

for many rotor options. I've not seen another one other than the CM rotor with remote control, though.


Charles


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## pepar

This "faster rotor" talk reminds me of racing small electric cars and the tweaks we used to do to get them to go faster - custom wind the motor, balance the shafts - the early equivalent of overclocking.


----------



## stevenxowens792

I am located in the Dallas/Ft Worth area and have a question about my setup. I have a mits ws55813, samsung t351, a terk indoor hdtv ant.


I would like to increase the signal strength in all my channels. I live approx 20-25 miles away from most broadcast towers. The signals are ok, but I would like to get them from 80-90 percent. Right now most are at 40-50 percent. Channel 8.1 (vhf) comes in great. Do the cheap amplifiers help this situation at all. I don't want to hang anything on the roof. The attic is a possibility but wanted to keep the setup simple. Does anyone use the indoor style antennas?


What are some suggestions? Again I know bigger is better but I want to get around the large antenna setup if I can.


Thanks for all your time and replies,


Steve


----------



## pepar




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by stevenxowens792_
> *I am located in the Dallas/Ft Worth area and have a question about my setup. I have a mits ws55813, samsung t351, a terk indoor hdtv ant.
> 
> 
> I would like to increase the signal strength in all my channels. I live approx 20-25 miles away from most broadcast towers. The signals are ok, but I would like to get them from 80-90 percent. Right now most are at 40-50 percent. Channel 8.1 (vhf) comes in great. Do the cheap amplifiers help this situation at all. I don't want to hang anything on the roof. The attic is a possibility but wanted to keep the setup simple. Does anyone use the indoor style antennas?
> 
> 
> What are some suggestions? Again I know bigger is better but I want to get around the large antenna setup if I can.
> 
> 
> Thanks for all your time and replies,
> 
> 
> Steve*




Hi Steve,


You'll probably get more knowledgeable members commenting manana, but I'm still awake . .


You can amplify the signals from your terk, but you may be amplifying the noise along with the signal and not really improving your situation. The only real way of getting more signal (and higher signal to noise ratio) is to, well . . get more signal. And to do that you need a bigger antenna. What about HD cable or satellite?


----------



## stevenxowens792

I have two tv's that have hd chasis built in. A sony xbr wega, and the mits ws55. I have had both for almost 3 years now. I just purchased the samsung 351 for OTA. I would like to get this setup polished first before getting the dish network hd.


So far the picture I get from the little terk is clear, but I just want it better.

I don't see much as far as artifacts or anything like that. But, then again my eyes are not perfect.


Again any tidbits are appreciated. I really would like to get a strong signal.

I know that Radio Shack sells a mid range antenna for like 35 bones.


Maybe that in the attic would do the trick. I just hate running wires through the wall. I have a vaulted ceiling and it is a big hassle.


Thanks again,


Steven O


----------



## stevenxowens792

This is in reference to my above setup post.


If (say for instance) I am getting 5 bars of signal strength on the sammy 351 for channel 5.1 (NBC), how many more bars would I get if I used a cheap amplifier? One bar? Maybe 2?


Thanks again,


Steven O


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by stevenxowens792_
> *This is in reference to my above setup post.
> 
> 
> If (say for instance) I am getting 5 bars of signal strength on the sammy 351 for channel 5.1 (NBC), how many more bars would I get if I used a cheap amplifier? One bar? Maybe 2?*



Potentially none.


Most "signal strength" meters are really "signal quality" meters, showing the amount of forward error correction data remaining for use. Thus getting a stronger signal doesn't mean getting a signal requiring any less error correction which might result from interference or multipath issues. In fact, a cheap amplifier could very well add more noise to your signal or amplify existing noise such that the signal-to-noise ratio is reduced and the receiver is unable to process more of the signal, reducing the signal quality reading you see.


So you won't know your situation until you try, and you really want to use a preamp that has a low noise figure, which means avoid cheap amplifiers.


It might help some stations which have low signals; it could hurt others that already have relatively strong or clean signals.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by stevenxowens792_
> *
> 
> Again any tidbits are appreciated. I really would like to get a strong signal.
> 
> I know that Radio Shack sells a mid range antenna for like 35 bones.
> *



All right, class. Let's say the antenna basics mantra one more time:


"Bigger is better. Higher is better. Outside is better."


I'd buy a UHF only from Antennasdirect (the DB4 or DB8) for your attic (outside would be better), use what you have now for VHF, and combine the two using a Channel Master #0549.


A preamplifier isn't going to help your signal.


Samsung's signal meter sucks.


----------



## stevenxowens792

The signal meter on the samsung t351 only determines the amount of correction it will need to produce the signal? Does this mean that the picture will not look any different if you have 5 bars or 10. Sorry I am still trying to understand this piece of the puzzle. I appreciate all your help.


Take Care,


Steven O


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by stevenxowens792_
> *The signal meter on the samsung t351 only determines the amount of correction it will need to produce the signal? Does this mean that the picture will not look any different if you have 5 bars or 10. Sorry I am still trying to understand this piece of the puzzle. I appreciate all your help.
> *



Once you have an artifact-free picture, it doesn't get any better. More bars won't make things look better. A bigger antenna won't make things look better. A better TV will, but...


Most people who want to increase signal strength want to do so because their reception is less than reliable. IOW, they get macroblocking (artifacts) or drop-outs (completely black screen) from time to time. If you aren't getting either of these, your reception is "perfect" and doesn't need to be improved.


----------



## jhill

I'm 40 miles away from pretty much every station I want to get, and they're all within 1 degree of each other (208 and 209). I can mount something on the chimney, but I would prefer it wouldn't be absolutely huge. I figure I'll have to get some kind of amp, but I would like to know what kind of antenna someone would recommend in this situation and perhaps where to look for someone to install it.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jhill_
> *I'm 40 miles away from pretty much every station I want to get, and they're all within 1 degree of each other (208 and 209). I can mount something on the chimney, but I would prefer it wouldn't be absolutely huge. I figure I'll have to get some kind of amp, but I would like to know what kind of antenna someone would recommend in this situation and perhaps where to look for someone to install it.*



Try a Channel Master 4228 or an AntennasDirect.com DB8. At 40 miles, you probably don't need a preamplifier, but make sure your installer brings a CM7777 or 7775 (the former if you need high-VHF reception, the latter if you don't need any VHF reception.)


The yellow pages is where I found my installer. Call around and listen to the installers. If they're unfriendly, hype a specific product, or guarantee results, they're probably not reputable.


----------



## jhill




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *Try a Channel Master 4228 or an AntennasDirect.com DB8. At 40 miles, you probably don't need a preamplifier, but make sure your installer brings a CM7777 or 7775 (the former if you need high-VHF reception, the latter if you don't need any VHF reception.)
> 
> 
> The yellow pages is where I found my installer. Call around and listen to the installers. If they're unfriendly, hype a specific product, or guarantee results, they're probably not reputable.*



Thanks a lot, this is exactly what I was looking for!


Does the CM 4228 provide VHF? All the signals I need to get right now are UHF but reading the rest of the thread makes me want to have both.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jhill_
> *
> 
> Does the CM 4228 provide VHF? All the signals I need to get right now are UHF but reading the rest of the thread makes me want to have both.*



UHF antennas (of which the CM4228 is one) do get some signal on high-VHF stations. They don't get much of anything on low-VHF.


VHF antennas have the disadvantage of being very large due to the longer wavelengths involved.


VHF/UHF combos have the disadvantage of being very large like VHF antennas, and generally have poor UHF performance comapred to a dedicated UHF antenna.


If you're trying to future-proof, a combo might work fine for you. If you just want something that works for HD now and let the future (or distant future, as the case may be) work itself out later, go with the UHF and enjoy the current digital environment.


Average "life" of an antenna is about 10 years, after which they start having serious structural issues, as well as corrosion and other bad effects. They may work, and some last much longer, but that's a good guideline.


It is entirely possible that newer antenna designs will be heavily skewed toward UHF and potentially high-VHF as well, which would be a vastly superior design for what most expect the final digital landscape will look like.


----------



## deelmakur

I have places in suburban NYC (about 45 miles from transmitters), Florida (Delray Beach area), where I get most WPB and Miami OTA, and Seattle, where I am right in town. New York is tough since the Towers went down. Most locals are back, and I get them with a three antenna array I have rigged in my attic, using a reversed TERK 3 way splitter, CM preamps, and a CM line amp. I have signal from CT, NYC, and Long Island, which requires 3 antennnas because of the various directions. It works. I use a 20 year old CM corner reflector, which had been up there, unused, since cable (and now SAT). Naturally, it works best. Supplemented with a CM double "cat whisker", and then a single CM "cat whisker" for CT stations. Tried the TERK 45 and 55 (waste of time), a special Channel 10 Yagi made by CM (for CT ABC in New Haven, which was the only V), which didn't do anything, and later proved unnecessary, and finally ended up with that mess I described. Major disappointment: NBC owned WNBC DT on Channel 28, Big owner like that, running low power. Can't get a thing. Meantime, CBS and ABC (on two channels, one NYC, the other New Haven) bang in like a local. Anyway, it sure is fun. Running 2 HD receivers. Samsung 61 inch DLP, and Sony 30 inch flat panel LCD. Both superb.


----------



## 3DCadman

Can you guys suffer through one more "I can't get this station" post?


Here's my setup:

Winegard 8800 8 bay bowtie antenna, roof/tripod mounted w/5 foot pole. Winegard 4800 UHF amp. Approx 75 feet of RG6 cable. HDTivo to receive signals.


Here are my stations/distances. All stations are within 3 degrees of each other at my location (Marysville, Michigan - near Detroit).


Here are my stations/distances/broadcast power:


WTVS-DT (PBS) 200 kW Ch 43 at 47.4 miles

WJBK-DT (FOX) 1000 kW Ch 58 at 48.4 miles

WWJ-DT (CBS) 200 kW Ch 44 at 47.4 miles

WDIV-DT (NBC) 973 kW Ch 45 at 47.1 miles

WXYZ-DT (ABC) 770 kW Ch 41 at 49.4 miles

WKBD-DT (UPN) 200 kW Ch 14 at 51.4 miles


OK, that said, I am getting ALL stations above with a decent, stable signal EXCEPT WXYZ-DT (ABC).


This is driving me nuts. I can't for the life of me understand why I can't receive this signal. All others, including some much lower power stations, come in fine. I do have some trees just to the left of my line of sight, but they apparently aren't affecting the other stations.


When I look at my signal meter for this station, it bounces all over in the lower numbers (0-30 usually), but every now and then it will spike and reach 0-80, then drop off within a few seconds.


Sometimes it does come in for a little while at night, but with lots of dropouts. I don't think the signal is much above 40 when this happens.


I have tried a Radioshack signal attenuator, but all that did was lower everything. Made no difference with ABC.


Any ideas? Is my antenna considered a good one? Is there better?


I'm considering a Channelmaster 4248 Yagi, I've heard good things about it, but it's only rated to 45 miles.


I'm also considering a Channelmaster 4228 8-Bay, but I already have the Winegard 8 Bay, so isn't it the same? Or is the Channelmaster better?


Also considering anything from Antennas Direct (either the 8 bay or the yagi's).


Any help or insight or advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm really confused as to why this channel eludes me when all others are fine. Especially when some are at lower power and same distance.










HELP!!!


----------



## Rack

 http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html 

I'm guess guessing here, but I think you found a cold spot for your ABC affiliate on channel 41. You can try moving the antenna up or down the mast to see if that helps. Next would be roaming around the roof to try and find a hot spot.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 

The antenna you have now is pretty good, you shouldn't see much of any gain going to a 4228 or a 4248, maybe an extra decibel with the 4228. The DB-8 might be better, as I've read a few positive posts about it, but I don't know for sure. Your pre-amp's pretty good, and your balun, if it's an outdoor one, should be fine as well. Maybe AltAntMike will chime in.


----------



## 3DCadman

Cold spot? I did read that on the link you provided. Mysterious, no?


The mast is mounted and I'm very reluctant to move it.


I found a good local dealer (Solid Signal) that will allow me to return an antenna if I try it and it doesn't work.


I read on the Antennas Direct site that they would do the same.


Maybe it's time to experiment! I just hate doing all that roof climbing










Thanks for the comments.


----------



## goldrich

Andy,


I can relate to your frustration. I am only 5-6 miles away from most of the Indy towers. Three years ago when I got my first STB, I put up the Channel Master 4221 (4-bay) around 20-22 feet. Then when I hooked it up to the STB, the results were great except for one station on ch. 45. For this channel the STB meter was indicating ZERO signal! How could this be with a station only 5 miles away and at the time putting out 200kW?! I took it down in disgust and began moving it around. Guess where I found the best reception of this channel? I got the strongest signal with the 4221 sitting on the floor in my basement!!! I believe my problem was related to multipath, since I live so close. I then tried the CM 4228 (8-bay) outside on the mast in the same location and the reception was fine for this channel and all the others.


Another thought is that the signal from WXYZ-DT is actually too strong with your preamp. I've experienced this before, too, but usually an attenuator will remedy this situation, which I see did not help your situation. Have you tried your current antenna setup without the preamp in place? Maybe you would be ok without it.


Good luck. Steve


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by 3DCadman_
> *Cold spot? I did read that on the link you provided. Mysterious, no?
> 
> 
> The mast is mounted and I'm very reluctant to move it.
> *



If you think about waves, it's really not so mysterious. Think about a rock in water and how a wave hits it. There are spots behind the rock where certain waves just don't hit. Since you're probably dealing with some blockage of the signal at your distance, there are places where signals aren't hitting. The Winegard PR-8800, however, has a pretty big "hot spot" compared to yagis and corner reflectors - in theory, you should be getting a signal if the wave is hitting one or two of the bowties.


If you haven't already, contact the station manager at the station giving you trouble and see if they've had other reports of reception difficulty. It also would pay to search on their call letters in this forum.


If you're trying to fix a cold spot, you don't necessarily need to move the mast - just move the antenna up or down on the mast by about 12". If it makes no difference, then things get more tricky, but if it really is just a cold spot, I'd expect that to fix things for you. Of course, you may inadvertently move the antenna into a cold spot for another channel that currently isn't giving you trouble.


Generally speaking, if you have one design of antenna and it isn't working, replacing it with a similar design isn't going to make a big difference. One 8-bay antenna is just about as good as another. There are minor differences, but you shouldn't expect any 8-bay to dramatically outperform your current one. If I was to experiment, I'd try a serious yagi, such as the 91XG from AntennasDirect, the Televes DAT75 (not available domestically -must be shipped internationally, and thus hard to return) or the like. I was unimpressed with the Channel Master 4248 both in build quality, and reception. It was almost identical to my Winegard HD7084P for reception, and in some cases worse.


----------



## 3DCadman

Thank you to everyone for the advice.


I think I may try the Antennas Direct 91XG yagi model. They have a good return policy if it doesn't work.


I will try various height locations on my mast to see what works best.


Thanks again. Time to get my courage up to make the multiple trips on the roof holding an antenna attached to a pole


----------



## dresf

Just a quick antenna neophyte question.


If one places the antenna in the attic, should it still be grounded?


When we built our house we had it pre-wired with RG-6 up there and left had an antenna placed up there, just havent set it up. Been waiting for more locals to be integrated into the cable lineup, but now I am sick of waiting.


----------



## pepar




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dresf_
> *Just a quick antenna neophyte question.
> 
> 
> If one places the antenna in the attic, should it still be grounded?*



This thread has discussed that thoroughly.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dresf_
> *
> 
> If one places the antenna in the attic, should it still be grounded?
> *



While I understand and appreciate those who are bothered by the same questions being asked over and over again, even in the same thread, I also empathize with those who, for lack of time, don't read every message in every thread. It is especially onerous to complain about a failure to read the thread (and not provide an answer) when the answer is shorter than the complaint.


In short: No. There is no benefit to grounding an antenna indoors.


----------



## pepar




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *While I understand and appreciate those who are bothered by the same questions being asked over and over again, even in the same thread, I also empathize with those who, for lack of time, don't read every message in every thread. It is especially onerous to complain about a failure to read the thread (and not provide an answer) when the answer is shorter than the complaint.*



Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime. The "fishing" in this case is "searching." But you're right; I should have added the answer to my reply out of courtesy..


----------



## dresf

Thanks for the info!


Pepar: Why is it such a bother on all boards that a question is asked over and over again. Are some of the stogdy members thumbs so arthritic from scrolling all day that they consider it inconvienent to just move past a stupid repetitive question. Hey I was in a hurry. What IS the BIG deal??

Apology accepted and the above rant isnt directed at you but a general rant to ones who continually post RTFA or RTFFAQ's. Fortunately this board is full of helpful people unlike some others. God Bless this board.


Amen


----------



## cpcat

I posted this in this forum but also thought it might be helpful to some who are reading this thread. Tried the Gearviews section but there's no place for antenna preamps.


Review of RC PHEMT HDTV LNA

Continuing in my quest for better and farther digital TV reception, I recently obtained a PHEMT GaAsFet low noise preamp (Research Communications in England) to try out. My current setup includes a CM 7777 and the antenna rig I've attached at the bottom of this post. The HDTV LNA as it's called has specs which include 20db gain and .4db noise figure and is designed for uhf frequencies. It is mast mountable with a weatherproof case available. It comes with either 75 ohm F connectors or BNC's.


I was very frustrated initially because I couldn't even get my strongest stations with the new amp. I eventually figured out that I needed an FM trap in-line because of local FM interference. Once that was done, the performance approached that of the CM 7777 but overall the CM 7777 was still superior in my setup in drawing in distant, weak stations (i.e. 5 kw at 65 mi omnidirectional). Why was it not better? I think in my case it was due to my 125 ft. cable run and the CM 7777 with it's higher gain simply is a better match for my setup. I did try adding the CM in-line amp available at Lowes (13 db gain, 3.5 db nf) as well as even adding my CM 7777 as an in-line amp but although the gain was increased as expected, the reception was never quite up to the level as with the 7777 on the mast. Most of my testing was geared towards uhf but interestingly the HDTV LNA does amplify vhf and I was able to tune vhf stations at times even off of my uhf rig.


I'd be interested in how the performance would have been with a shorter cable run as I do believe this company makes a good product. However, it should also make those of you out there using the CM7777/7775 feel pretty good about your preamp.

 

ant 3.zip 124.2568359375k . file


----------



## OneArchitect




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dresf_
> *Thanks for the info!
> 
> 
> Pepar: Why is it such a bother on all boards that a question is asked over and over again...
> 
> 
> Amen*



Why is it such a bother to you that people ask questions for which you may have knowledge?


There are two types of people in this world.


There are those who will willingly wade through quite a bit of not necessarrily closely related material in order to garner specific information. Then, there are those who find it comfortable to ask someone who they think may know of the specific information.


The question asked cost you little or nothing but that you chose to be involved with it. Should everone in want of a wheel have to go through the process of inventing it?


We all have our irritations in life. In many cases, providing directions to those you perceive as less dilligent ought to be considered a simple courtesy in life...or, you can simply pass. (As perhaps I should have.)


"Duck, hide...run for cover." - Chuck Berry


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dresf_
> *Why is it such a bother on all boards that a question is asked over and over again.[...]Hey I was in a hurry. What IS the BIG deal??*



Actually, I'm on both sides with this one. Pepar took a lot of time to rant that you should have searched. The answer was a quick and easy one.


At the same time, if you've been on this board as long as I have, you start seeing the same questions asked over and over and over again and you wonder just how many times you have to type the answer before people will get it. You think you're just throwing your time away because the answers have already been given. At some point, experienced members throw in the towel and stop reading the board because it's like playing "Whack-a-Mole." The same moles keep popping up and when you have to hit each one, one at a time.


I suspect a search on 'grounding' 'indoor' and 'antenna' would have yielded you quicker results than posting and waiting for a reply.


----------



## pepar




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dresf_
> *Thanks for the info!
> 
> 
> Pepar: Why is it such a bother on all boards that a question is asked over and over again. Are some of the stogdy members thumbs so arthritic from scrolling all day that they consider it inconvienent to just move past a stupid repetitive question. Hey I was in a hurry. What IS the BIG deal??
> 
> Apology accepted and the above rant isnt directed at you but a general rant to ones who continually post RTFA or RTFFAQ's. Fortunately this board is full of helpful people unlike some others. God Bless this board.
> 
> 
> Amen*



I, personally, don't consider it a bother. I've seen some threads devoted to "improving" the forum and the subject came up as to how to streamline the forum. The "concern" was that threads scrolled too quickly to pg 2, pg 3, etc, and became too unweildy causing new readers to have to go through pages and pages of the same, repetitive information. I'm sorry that I seemed terse.


----------



## pepar




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dresf_
> *God Bless this board.
> 
> 
> Amen*



Amen indeed.


----------



## pepar

OK, OK, point taken.



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by OneArchitect_
> *Why is it such a bother to you that people ask questions for which you may have knowledge?
> 
> 
> There are two types of people in this world.
> 
> 
> There are those who will willingly wade through quite a bit of not necessarrily closely related material in order to garner specific information. Then, there are those who find it comfortable to ask someone who they think may know of the specific information.
> 
> 
> The question asked cost you little or nothing but that you chose to be involved with it. Should everone in want of a wheel have to go through the process of inventing it?
> 
> 
> We all have our irritations in life. In many cases, providing directions to those you perceive as less dilligent ought to be considered a simple courtesy in life...or, you can simply pass. (As perhaps I should have.)
> 
> 
> "Duck, hide...run for cover." - Chuck Berry*


----------



## pepar




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *Actually, I'm on both sides with this one. Pepar took a lot of time to rant that you should have searched.*



You've obviously never seen me rant.










I am now guilty of semi-OT posts that will inevitably push this thread to yet another page causing interminable scrolling and discouraging members from reading to find their answers.


Forum Admins: I see no way to streamline this forum by encouraging people to search on their own. It will always be easier to simply ask the question than to search for oneself. And efforts to encourage searching are met with heat directed at the person suggesting it, regardless of how tactfully it is done. OK, perhaps I could have een a bit more tactful . . .


----------



## thomasamiller

I have a Mitsubish set with an integrated tuner - ws65869. I recently had an antenna installer install an antenna, preamp, and amp. I am located in Chantilly VA a very low lying area. I get great video reception but I am not getting any audio. Well the audio works about 1% of the time but ususally does not work at all. rebooting the tv does not fix it. I have the latest 1.04 firmware.


At my previous address everything worked fine. I am wondering if the amplified antenna is causing the audio to not work most of the time. The fact that the audio only works 1% of the time is confusing me, I am not sure if the problem is with the firmware, internal tuner, or amplified antenna setup. Can someone please help with ideas? I do not have extended warranty so please help!


Thanks,

Tom


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by thomasamiller_
> *
> 
> At my previous address everything worked fine. I am wondering if the amplified antenna is causing the audio to not work most of the time. The fact that the audio only works 1% of the time is confusing me, I am not sure if the problem is with the firmware, internal tuner, or amplified antenna setup. Can someone please help with ideas? I do not have extended warranty so please help!
> *



With digital reception, the audio stream is encoded in the same way (and stream) as the video stream - they're in the same datastream. Thus, if you're getting a digital picture that is reasonably breakup-free, there is no reason not to have audio. Most likely your television is malfunctioning.


----------



## dkomisar

I recently installed a terk 5 by 8 multiswitch and ran the outdoor radio shack antenna though the multiswitch. I live in Nashville TN. I am approximately 10 miles from the local CBS affiliate and the antenna is aimed directly at the tower. I am about 6 miles from the local ABC affilate and the antenna is aimed in the exact opposite direction. Prior to the multiswitch install, I was nailing the signal from CBS but getting next to nothing from ABC. This is logical. Now after the install, I get a good signal from ABC, inspite of the directional placement of the antenna, and next to nothing from CBS. This is not logical. What gives?


----------



## xbgamer

I currently connect to analog TV using a set of rabbit ears. I am thinking about getting an ATI HDTV Wonder card so that I can watch the olympics in HD (yes, i know about the looped programming and all that, but i love swimming and track...so i want it!!!), but I'm not sure about the reception. I currently get WRC-TV as a really static noisy picture (grainy). I'm guessing the equivalent of that in DT would be a stream with constant breakups...I checked with antennaweb.org and they showed me with a blue rating for WRC ("You need a Medium Directional Antenna with pre-amp"). Do you think I can slip by with my rabbit ear antennas with a built-in amplifier? What about an indoor antenna recommendation? When it comes to outdoor antennas...i simply am unable to climb roofs....


why not cable or satellite? cox cable is too expensive...same for voom, dish, and directv


----------



## pepar




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by xbgamer_
> *I currently connect to analog TV using a set of rabbit ears. I am thinking about getting an ATI HDTV Wonder card so that I can watch the olympics in HD (yes, i know about the looped programming and all that, but i love swimming and track...so i want it!!!), but I'm not sure about the reception. I currently get WRC-TV as a really static noisy picture (grainy). I'm guessing the equivalent of that in DT would be a stream with constant breakups...I checked with antennaweb.org and they showed me with a blue rating for WRC ("You need a Medium Directional Antenna with pre-amp"). Do you think I can slip by with my rabbit ear antennas with a built-in amplifier? What about an indoor antenna recommendation? When it comes to outdoor antennas...i simply am unable to climb roofs....
> 
> 
> why not cable or satellite? cox cable is too expensive...same for voom, dish, and directv*



I'd say it's a safe bet that if antennaweb call for a medium antenna w/pre-amp, rabbit ears WON'T do. As for the indoor (attic?) location, it would probably take the same medium w/pre-amp as indoor mounting cuts signal depending on construction materials used.


----------



## xbgamer

ok...stupid question...what if i kept an outdoor antenna inside my bedroom, next to the window? I have never been up in the attic of this house (rental), so I don't know whats up there [or how to open the attic door, lol].


----------



## pepar

Give it a try. It could double as a clothesline.


----------



## xbgamer

lol, yea, that works too.


btw, i'm on your HT Upgrade site...and I must say...WOW!!! my home theater setup? 5 speakers in the approximate areas and the sub laying on the floor next to my xbox . no acoustical measurements for me...


----------



## pepar




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by xbgamer_
> *my home theater setup? 5 speakers in the approximate areas and the sub laying on the floor next to my xbox . no acoustical measurements for me...*



Do you enjoy it? That's what's important.


----------



## AcuraCL




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by xbgamer_
> *ok...stupid question...what if i kept an outdoor antenna inside my bedroom, next to the window? I have never been up in the attic of this house (rental), so I don't know whats up there [or how to open the attic door, lol].*



That's exactly what I have done. I have a CM3021 in my office window, suspended from the top of the window frame to get the best height.


It works pretty dam well ... except that there is no possibility of turning it. I am ok with that at this point, since I receive pretty much every network from one city or another (but not every channel).


Just make sure the window in question doesn't have a metal screen in it.


----------



## mbtobe

I have a 120 inch Radio Shack directional antenna installed in my attic for use with my Direct TV HD/Tivo. I get great reception on all of the OTA HD channels in my area except one, FOX 25.

I have my antenna pointed at 50 degrees, which is straight at the "antenna farm" 22 miles away where several of the towers are. My receiver registers only 25-30 for that channel, yet it registers in the 70-80 range for other channels with towers in that same place.

Can anyone tell me if a preamp would improve the reception from this channel or is it simply too weak a signal.

I am in Bellingham, MA and the towers are located in Needham, MA.


Thanks.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mbtobe_
> *I get great reception on all of the OTA HD channels in my area except one, FOX 25. I have my antenna pointed at 50 degrees, which is straight at the "antenna farm" 22 miles away where several of the towers are. My receiver registers only 25-30 for that channel, yet it registers in the 70-80 range for other channels with towers in that same place.
> 
> Can anyone tell me if a preamp would improve the reception from this channel or is it simply too weak a signal.
> *



I know I'm talking to the wind here, but when you have problems with a local affiliate, PLEASE post the call letters. It saves a lot of work for the rest of us.


WFXT-DT is running at 78kw ERP, directional, though it appears to be sending 80% of the signal your way. This is moderate power, and would be plenty if you had an outdoor antenna. Generally speaking, amplifiers/preamplifiers are only good in very weak signal areas, far away from all transmitters. As close as you are, it is unlikely that it would help.


Either get that antenna out in the open air where God intended antennas to be, or get a stronger UHF antenna. Radio Shack antennas are not known for their UHF reception capabilities, especially the VHF/UHF combos. Contact Stark Electronics about getting a Channel Master 3021 or 4228 and a Channel Master #0549 to combine your existing VHF reception with the superior UHF design of the CM.


----------



## xbgamer




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by pepar_
> *Do you enjoy it? That's what's important.*




lol, its ok. way better than my 4watt built-in stereo TV speakers, but if i only move the speakers here and there a little bit, it would be way better, but i'm too lazy


----------



## mbtobe




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *I know I'm talking to the wind here, but when you have problems with a local affiliate, PLEASE post the call letters. It saves a lot of work for the rest of us.
> 
> 
> WFXT-DT is running at 78kw ERP, directional, though it appears to be sending 80% of the signal your way. This is moderate power, and would be plenty if you had an outdoor antenna. Generally speaking, amplifiers/preamplifiers are only good in very weak signal areas, far away from all transmitters. As close as you are, it is unlikely that it would help.
> 
> 
> Either get that antenna out in the open air where God intended antennas to be, or get a stronger UHF antenna. Radio Shack antennas are not known for their UHF reception capabilities, especially the VHF/UHF combos. Contact Stark Electronics about getting a Channel Master 3021 or 4228 and a Channel Master #0549 to combine your existing VHF reception with the superior UHF design of the CM.*



Thank you.


----------



## STEELERSRULE

Indoor Antenna Question: Regarding Amplifiers

I have a question about amplifiers on indoor antenna's, but I will give some background to my setup.


I am using an indoor RCA amplified antenna(Model#ANT200B. VHF/UHF FM) which can be found at CC, Walmart, or Target. Or it's improved brother or cousin(Phillips) which I will get to in a minute. The ANTENNA has an amplification of up to +25dbs. It is connected to a Recoton 4-way splitter(which I got on an open box at BB for $5, even though only two of the outputs are used) which, when plugged in has an amplification of +10dbs. The outputs are connected to a Yamaha HTR-5590 for FM, and a Sylvania SRZ3000 HD STB(nice, cheap entry to people interested to HD).


I have four digital stations that I receive between 15-30 mile radius, and one(CBS/KDKA out of Pittsburgh) which is 50 miles away(PGH is South of me), but I believe is the only one operating at full power(1000 kws or greater, whatever FULL power is, it is operating at it.) The four digital stations come in, on average, between 75-95. It fluctuates greatly sometimes when going from of the four to the next, but that is because I am just too lazy to adjust the antenna for optimum level on whatever channel I am on(I found somewhat of a "sweet spot" but not perfect). KDKA/CBS out of Pittsburgh is consistently in the 80-85 range, although I am 50 miles away. I've watched during the day, night, good weather(clear), and bad weather(cloudy, thunderstorms, rain, etc....) but the antenna level is almost always between 80-85. The dipoles on the antenna are always extended to their full extent. Although the dipoles are used for VHF/FM, they GREATLY help in the reception of the UHF channels for some reason, so I leave them up. All channels mentioned are UHF, and are MAPPED UHF. All this and I live in a Wooded area, surrounded by trees with full leaves(some 30ft or higher). There now you know my topography and my connection situation(and at this point, my life story! )


Today I saw that both RCA and Phillips have new amplified antenna's that now each have an adjustable gain for both VHF/FM and UHF. They are seperate from each other. There gains are as follows:


1. RCA: Up to 45dbs gain on VHF/FM. Up to 35dbs gain on UHF.


2. Phillips: Up to 45dbs gain on VHF/FM. Up to 30dbs gain on UHF.


My question is would picking up either one of these actually HELP my overall INDOOR reception. Would my average antenna rating(75-85) be GREATLY/ or SOMEWHAT increased with the higher amplified gain on both of these antennas?(an average of +40 between the two, as compared to the +25dbs I am getting now). Does there come a point in AMPLIFYING that you could have a amplification of +100dbs on your antenna, but +40dbs will get you the same results you are getting now.


Will the average +20dbs amplification on both antenna's give me better results?(instead of an average 75-85 range, the average could be significantly higher. 85-100 range). Or should I just keep my money.


An analogy to this(it is stupid so bear with me) is sunblock. 30 SPF or above will keep you well protected. The ones that are 35 or above, aren't going to keep you anymore protected then the SPF 30. Kind of an overkill.


Is the antenna amplification the same deal?


Thanx for your help in advance


--STEELERSRULE


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by STEELERSRULE_
> *I have four digital stations that I receive between 15-30 mile radius, and one(CBS/KDKA out of Pittsburgh) which is 50 miles away(PGH is South of me), but I believe is the only one operating at full power(1000 kws or greater, whatever FULL power is, it is operating at it.) The four digital stations come in, on average, between 75-95.
> 
> 
> My question is would picking up either one of these actually HELP my overall INDOOR reception. Would my average antenna rating(75-85) be GREATLY/ or SOMEWHAT increased with the higher amplified gain on both of these antennas?(an average of +40 between the two, as compared to the +25dbs I am getting now). Does there come a point in AMPLIFYING that you could have a amplification of +100dbs on your antenna, but +40dbs will get you the same results you are getting now.
> *



There is probably no additional amplification that will raise your signal-to-noise ratio in any meaningful way. As it is, either the amplified splitter or the internal amplifier is probably doing more harm than good. Once your signal is above the noise floor (as it most certainly is when you boost it 25db) there is no additional gain to be had be increasing that signal by amplification. Only by getting a better signal to amplify (i.e. getting a bigger antenna or locating it in a more optimal location) will your signal meter show a higher rating.


Signal strength meters on most STBs are really signal *quality* meters, and this can't be improved by amplification. You can overcome line loss and splitter loss with amplification, but you can't make the signal any cleaner than what it was when it hit the antenna. In other words, the limiting factor here isn't your amplifier - it's your antenna.


If you overamplify a signal, it is worse than no amplification at all, since the highs and lows will be "clipped" yielding a lower signal-to-noise ratio, and potentially destroying the signal altogether.


If it was me, I'd save my money for a project likely to yield some worthwhile results. You'd be throwing your money away since you already get good/great signals.


----------



## xbgamer




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by xbgamer_
> *I currently connect to analog TV using a set of rabbit ears. I am thinking about getting an ATI HDTV Wonder card so that I can watch the olympics in HD (yes, i know about the looped programming and all that, but i love swimming and track...so i want it!!!), but I'm not sure about the reception. I currently get WRC-TV as a really static noisy picture (grainy). I'm guessing the equivalent of that in DT would be a stream with constant breakups...I checked with antennaweb.org and they showed me with a blue rating for WRC ("You need a Medium Directional Antenna with pre-amp"). Do you think I can slip by with my rabbit ear antennas with a built-in amplifier? What about an indoor antenna recommendation? When it comes to outdoor antennas...i simply am unable to climb roofs....
> 
> 
> why not cable or satellite? cox cable is too expensive...same for voom, dish, and directv*




here is an attached image of how the analog TV signal is using rabbit ears...think I can get away with rabbit ears?


----------



## xbgamer

and another image...


----------



## dswallow

xbgamer, rabbit ears are good for VHF signals; most (though not all) digital stations are in the UHF band. Not knowing where you are, I can't see what stations are involved, but if you take a look you might find that you need to be using a UHF antenna. Something like the Zenith Silver Sensor might work for you, and still let you keep a moderately small antenna indoors.


----------



## xbgamer

ok...i'm in a washington, d.c. suburb...a direct copy and paste from antennaweb:


* yellow - uhf WNVT-DT 30.1 IND Goldvein VA 184° 18.8 30

* green - uhf WPXW-DT 66.1 PAX Manassas VA 144° 11.0 43

* red - uhf WUSA-DT 9.1 CBS Washington DC 90° 21.6 34

* red - uhf WJLA-DT 7.1 ABC Washington DC 90° 21.6 39

* blue - uhf WETA-DT 26.1 PBS Washington DC 101° 18.5 27

* blue - uhf WHUT-DT 33 PBS Washington DC Testing 90° 21.6 33

* blue - uhf WTTG-DT 5.1 FOX Washington DC 89° 21.5 36

* blue - uhf WRC-DT 4.1 NBC Washington DC 92° 21.4 48

* violet - uhf WBDC-DT 50.1 WB Washington DC 90° 24.5 51

* violet - uhf WNVC-DT 57.1 IND Fairfax VA 107° 13.7 57

* violet - uhf WFDC-DT 15 TFA ARLINGTON VA TBD 92° 21.4 15


Yea, all of the DT channels are in UHF...(i dont know if 15 is or not, but its the spanish speaking channel, so i dont need that). I currently get pretty good UHF channel reception my pair of rabbit ears/UHF loop combo ampilified antenna...i'll post a few screen captures later...


----------



## dswallow

You should also review the Washington DC thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4&goto=newpost 


Asking your question there also might elicit some answers from people who are closer to your situation and who have already been through this.


----------



## spinnergy

I just purchased a Sasem USB2 powered HDTV tuner for my widescreen Dell 8500 laptop (1680x1050 resolution screen). So now, I'm trying to figure out how not to go broke and crazy trying to get reception of the local digitals.


I live in Vestavia Hills, which is just over a mountain from the towers. I'm appx 2.6 miles from the main DTV tower which has CBS, PBS, UPN, and WB (its a 3 spike candelabra design). The NBC and Fox towers are close to that, and the ABC tower is 37 miles away and is the only VHF tower of the bunch. I would like to know if anyone has any recommendations for me. I have installed a CM 3017 antenna in the attic and pointed it as best I can in the direction of the towers. This gives me a signal on everything except ABC. However, the signal results in a picture with occassional hiccups which are consistent throughout the broadcast.


How do I determine if this is a multipath issue or a directional issue? I have installed a line amplifier from Radio Shack and am using a 50ft coaxial cable.


Here's my antennaweb config:


WIAT-DT 42.1 CBS BIRMINGHAM AL 335° 2.6 30

WBRC-DT 6.1 FOX Birmingham AL 346° 2.7 50

WBIH-DT 29 WB SELMA AL 185° 62.9 29

WTTO-DT 21.1 WB HOMEWOOD AL 335° 2.6 28

WVTM-DT 52.1 NBC BIRMINGHAM AL 349° 2.8 52

WCFT-DT 5.1 ABC TUSCALOOSA AL 275° 37.2 5

WBIQ-DT 10.1 PBS Birmingham AL 335° 2.6 53

WABM-DT 68.1 UPN BIRMINGHAM AL 335° 2.6 36


----------



## Rack

Hmm... VHF-lo 5. Didn't another Sasem owner have trouble with a VHF-lo station (WBBM-DT 3)? He fixed it by using a better power supply.


----------



## seadoo

Periodically, while I am watching my local CBS channel in HD I start to get audio drop out. The picture remains steady with no pixilation. Does anybody know what causes this?


----------



## spinnergy




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Rack_
> *Hmm... VHF-lo 5. Didn't another Sasem owner have trouble with a VHF-lo station (WBBM-DT 3)? He fixed it by using a better power supply.*



You are correct. That user was philjsmith67


He told me that the Sasem engineers told him they couldn't reproduce the noise on their production units so its possible he had a bad power supply. He sent his power supply back to them for testing. I'm not too keen on changing out the power supply, so I think I'll exhaust the other avenues of exploration first. I still have to do a test on the analog signal to see if the telltale noise philjsmith67 mentions is there.


----------



## texasdiver

Hi Guys, I just ordered my first HDTV set and an DirectTV HD Tivo to go with it. I'm currently a Dish Network customer and completely new to the OTA thing. I ordered the HD Tivo through the CC web site from within a CC retail store and as a new DirectTV customer they threw in a new dish, a new Terk TV 44 clip-on antenna that is supposed to clip on the dish.


I'm assuming the Terk is a piece of junk and inadequate for my location because most of the other houses around here have bigger antennas. When I go to the antennaweb.org site I get the following information for my exact address.



red - vhf KCEN-DT 9.1 NBC TEMPLE TX 167° 29.4 mi 9

blue - uhf KWBU-DT 34.1 PBS Waco TX 182° 26.1 mi 20

blue - uhf KWTX-DT 10.1 CBS WACO TX 179° 25.8 mi 53

violet - uhf KXXV-DT 25.1 ABC WACO TX 178° 24.7 mi 26

violet - uhf KWKT-DT 44.1 FOX WACO TX 180° 26.2 mi 57


It appears I have a fairly narrow directional range from 167 degrees to 182 degrees and a distance range of 25 to 29 miles so I assume a medium range directional antenna will work. I also have four UHF stations and one VHF station at channel 9 and a recommended antenna range from red VHF to violet UHF.


In terms of installation I will likely be attaching a metal mounting pole to my chiminey which is where my current dish is installed. It is about 20' high and I suspect I can go up another 8' or so with just a pole. I will also have a run of about 75' to the TV.


Any recommendations of what to buy in terms of antennas, amps, and pre-amps? This is all new to me and I was figuring on trying the V15 VHF antenna from antennasdirect.com but that's just a guess on my part. Is there a better choice and do I need an amp or pre-amp for my installation?


Thanks for any advice. I want to get this wired and installed so I'm ready when the TV and receiver arrice.


----------



## Bogey62

I have a question regarding getting my local digital channels.


All of the channels I care about getting are located within 20 miles of my location, and according to AntennaWeb they all fall within the yellow-uhf (and only 2 being in the green-uhf/vhf) range.


I live in an apartment that does not face the channel's broadcast towers and I can only mount the antenna on a short pole from the balcony (not clearing the building's roof).


I am considering getting one of these Winegard antennas and I would like to know your opinions of them. They are:


MS-2000

SquareShooter (SS-1000 no-amp or SS-2000 amp)


Do I really need an amp, considering the location of my stations?

Would the amp "overdrive" my TV?

Is there a better alternative to what I have listed above as antenna choices?


Thank you all in advance.


----------



## texasdiver

Well I went and bought a Channelmaster 3018 and a 10' mounting pole at Lowes this afternoon. The had the 3018 for $59 and the 3020 for $99. We'll see how it works. I figure with Lowes I can always just pull it down and put it back in the box and return it if it doesn't work.


You can see my location situation 2 posts up. Hopefully this will work for me. My first priority is bringing in the HDTV Olympics which happens to be on VHF channel 9 in my area. The rest of my stations are UHF. That is why I went with a big combination antenna like the 3018.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Bogey62_
> *All of the channels I care about getting are located within 20 miles of my location, and according to AntennaWeb they all fall within the yellow-uhf (and only 2 being in the green-uhf/vhf) range.
> 
> 
> ...I am considering getting one of these Winegard antennas and I would like to know your opinions of them. They are:
> 
> 
> MS-2000
> 
> SquareShooter (SS-1000 no-amp or SS-2000 amp)
> 
> 
> Do I really need an amp, considering the location of my stations?
> 
> Would the amp "overdrive" my TV?
> 
> Is there a better alternative to what I have listed above as antenna choices?
> *



The SquareShooter is your best choice, and the unamplified version is best that close to the stations. An amplifier is only good when signals are clean (no ghosts on analogs) but weak (lots of snow on analogs.) At 20 miles, your #1 problem is going to be reflections, not snow.


Avoid multidirectional antennas at all costs.


----------



## Bogey62




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *The SquareShooter is your best choice, and the unamplified version is best that close to the stations. An amplifier is only good when signals are clean (no ghosts on analogs) but weak (lots of snow on analogs.) At 20 miles, your #1 problem is going to be reflections, not snow.
> 
> 
> Avoid multidirectional antennas at all costs.*



OK, cool, thanks for that bit of advice, sregener.


----------



## Angelo M

I have posted here before awhile back for antenna advice and also have learned alot by reading the posts.


I have not yet purchased an antenna for the fear of mounting on my roof safety concerns, plus the expense of buying antenna, preamp, mast, rotator, hardware and cable, and hoping that it all works.


Yesterday I found an old uhf bowtie antenna in my junk box. I taped it to a

6 foot board and put it on my front porch, and ran a 25 foot RG6 cable from it to my Samsung Sir T151 that I got for cheap at BestBuy. At about the 6 feet high on the porch I actually received 4 digital stations. I had to

rotate the antenna slightly left and right to be able to get them. Also, I could tell that my Samsung was detecting other stations too, but not displaying them.


Could I go with a CM 4221 4 bay, mounted on the porch, and under the porch roof and maybe receive the other stations that the Samsung seemed to be detecting?


I figure with this setup I could avoid purchasing a pre-amp due to the shorter cable run, and avoid the rotator, I could just reach out the door and position it. The actual distance between the antenna and the TV is about 10.


Also would I still need to ground the antenna?


I figure this set up will cost me around 40.00 compared to 225.00 to 250.00

for mounting on the roof.


----------



## cpalcott

I live in NW Rochester, MN (Northgate area) and am looking to try OTA for local digital channels connected to a PC HDTV OTA Tuner (want to record HD). I am looking for some advice about equipment and what channels I will actually be able to receive.


According toAntennaweb.org I am in the violet and blue reception areas and can receive the following channels:

blue - vhf KTTC 10 NBC ROCHESTER MN 174° 31.9 10

blue - uhf K60DS 60 TBN ROCHESTER MN 82° 6.7 60

violet - vhf KAAL 6 ABC AUSTIN MN 229° 43.8 6

* violet - uhf KTTC-DT 10.1 NBC ROCHESTER MN 184° 27.0 36

violet - vhf KIMT 3 CBS MASON CITY IA 200° 48.9 3

violet - uhf WXOW 19 ABC LA CROSSE WI 104° 57.2 19

violet - vhf WKBT 8 CBS LA CROSSE WI 84° 56.5 8

violet - uhf WLAX 25 FOX La Crosse WI 104° 57.0 25

violet - uhf WHLA 31 PBS LA CROSSE WI 104° 57.2 31

violet - uhf KXLT 47 FOX ROCHESTER MN 184° 27.0 47


I see only one digital channel available (KTTC-DT10). Yet, according to NAB, I have the following digital channels available in the area:


Rochester, MN-Mason City, IA-Austin, MN 152

KXLT-TV FOX 47.n 46

KAAL ABC 6.n 33

KIMT CBS 3.n 42

KTTC NBC 10.n 36

KSMQ-TV PBS 15.n 20


Questions:

Which of these channels are available and which are not?

With digital channels being my main concern (all on UHF) but still with a desire to use the analog channels as well, which antenna(s) are ideal? Channel Master 4228, 4221 or 3671? Channel Master CM 7777 Preamp? Something completely different? I am prepared for outdoor rooftop mount (wife is too).


Will I have to deal with multi-pathing or is distance from transmitters my biggest issue?


Will a PC HDTV Tuner card be an adequate receiver ?


Is it going to be at all possible to tune in other channels within 100 miles distance like the following:


Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN

14 KMWB WB 23.n 22

KPXM PAX 41.n 40

KARE-TV NBC 11.n 35

KAWB PBS 22.n 28

KAWE PBS 9.n 18

WFTC UPN 29.n 21

KTCA-TV PBS 2.n 34

KTCI-TV PBS 17.n 16

KSTC-TV IND 45.n 44

KMSP-TV FOX 9.n 26

KSTP-TV ABC 5.n 50

WCCO-TV CBS 4.n 32

KCCO-TV CBS 7.n 24

KCCW-TV CBS 12.


La Crosse-Eau Claire, WI 126

WKBT CBS 8.n 41

WQOW-TV ABC 18.n 15

WXOW-TV ABC 19.n 14

WEAU-TV NBC 13.n 39

WHLA-TV PBS 31.n 30


Any help/experience/advice would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks,

cpalcott


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Angelo M_
> *Could I go with a CM 4221 4 bay, mounted on the porch, and under the porch roof and maybe receive the other stations that the Samsung seemed to be detecting?
> 
> 
> Also would I still need to ground the antenna?
> *



A 4-bay antenna, with a screen, with outperform a single bowtie w/o screen by a lot. You would at least get what you get now, and maybe more, with a 4-bay. While it would obviously be better to go above your roofline, sometimes you can get away with doing everything "wrong." Don't get a preamplifier - it won't work if your signals are that strong with a single bowtie.


Any outdoor antenna should be grounded. If it is subject to wind, it is subject to static buildup, and that buildup can create a potential difference great enough to encourage lightning to seek it out.


----------



## Bogey62




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *The SquareShooter is your best choice, and the unamplified version is best that close to the stations. An amplifier is only good when signals are clean (no ghosts on analogs) but weak (lots of snow on analogs.) At 20 miles, your #1 problem is going to be reflections, not snow.
> 
> 
> Avoid multidirectional antennas at all costs.*



I just spoke with a guy at Warren Electronics Parts and Supplies (warrenelectronics.com), and he sounded knowlegeable about the antennas. I asked about the SquareShooter and he said that is was a great antenna until you drop below channel 10. He said that it really fell off down there.


The channels I really care about getting in HD are all located under 20 miles from my apartment, but they are numbers 2, 4, and 7.


Does anyone have experience with this antenna on low numbered channels?


Thank you.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Bogey62_
> *
> 
> The channels I really care about getting in HD are all located under 20 miles from my apartment, but they are numbers 2, 4, and 7.
> *



More than likely, you're listing the analog channel numbers. I don't know of a single market with that many VHF digital signals.


Check out the list at http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp for real channel numbers.


----------



## Bogey62




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *More than likely, you're listing the analog channel numbers. I don't know of a single market with that many VHF digital signals.*



My channels are on:


49.1

17.1

32.1

7.1

39.1

33.1

29.1


All are within 20 miles of my location.


I wonder if it's worth spending $100 on the SquareShooter without the booster, or springing the extra $$$ for the booster?


Thanks.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Bogey62_
> *My channels are on:
> 
> 
> 49.1
> 
> 17.1
> 
> 32.1
> 
> 7.1
> 
> 39.1
> 
> 33.1
> 
> 29.1
> 
> 
> All are within 20 miles of my location.
> *



At 20 miles, I think you'd be fine. I don't recommend a preamplifier (booster) at that range. Just about any properly placed antenna should work okay, unless you're physically blocked.


----------



## Bogey62




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *At 20 miles, I think you'd be fine. I don't recommend a preamplifier (booster) at that range. Just about any properly placed antenna should work okay, unless you're physically blocked.*



OK, thanks again, sregener.


----------



## Shoshana

1. Don't laugh

2. Put down any liquids ya'll might be drinkin, k?


We have a 2 story house on the backside of a hill - all the Austin stations are 'over the hill' but only about 10 miles away.


Our house was wired up when it was built 3 years ago, so we have drops already.


Our HDTV monitor is downstairs (Panasonic 32", last year's model from WalMart.)

With it we're using that WalMart STB US Digital HDTV Receiver DB-2010 (under $200)

That's all hooked up to our stereo (not 5.1 but nice, older)


Upstairs we have 2 Sonys ... 1 from 1989, one from 1985.


We got the SS1000 (Square Shooter) and set it on top of Sony 1989. Got an amplified splitter, sent one cable to the wall, the other to the 1989 Sony. Realized that we needed an antenna for Analog Channel 7 (Fox) so I got the bunny ears (vhf only) off the Sony, hooked em inline before the splitter and propped them up against the bookcase.


OK... tvs on analog look really good.


Downstairs I realized that KTBC-DT (FOX 7/56) wasn't coming in. Not surprised, it's transmitting at .8 kw and we're 10.5 miles away from the tower... so I got another splitter, put it between the STB and the second input on the Panasonic.


We watch KTBC in Analog but we pick up up the local ABC, NBC, CBS, WB, PBS in Digital. Somehow we are also picking up a station in Killeen (KAKW-DT, Univision) too - in a different direction from everything else... we're getting everything that antennaweb says we should get if we have a light green rated antenna...


I figure when KTBC-DT gets some power we'll get that just fine too.


'shana


----------



## MDRLou

I recently installed a Winegard PR-4400 to improve my OTA reception in Los Angeles. It works great and I get all of the digital channels great except KOCE, the Orange county PBS channel. My receiver is a Hughes HTL-HD. The signal strength on the receiver for KOCE is equal to or greater than all of the rest of the channels. I receive no sound and have a great picture that will freeze and then go to no signal and then the whole process repeats. Prior to installing the Winegard I was using our condo's antenna and was experiencing the same thing.


All LA stations(including KOCE) broadcast from Mt. Wilson about 27 miles away within 36-39 degrees. All the other stations are rock solid with no drop outs.


Any thoughts???


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by MDRLou_
> *The signal strength on the receiver for KOCE is equal to or greater than all of the rest of the channels. I receive no sound and have a great picture that will freeze and then go to no signal and then the whole process repeats. Prior to installing the Winegard I was using our condo's antenna and was experiencing the same thing.
> 
> 
> All LA stations(including KOCE) broadcast from Mt. Wilson about 27 miles away within 36-39 degrees. All the other stations are rock solid with no drop outs.
> 
> 
> Any thoughts???*



Yes. You might try searching for KOCE in this forum. I did and the first hit after your post was:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...highlight=KOCE 


Apparently, they upgraded their encoder and now everyone is having problems.


----------



## PhilJSmith67




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by spinnergy_
> *He told me that the Sasem engineers told him they couldn't reproduce the noise on their production units so its possible he had a bad power supply. He sent his power supply back to them for testing. I'm not too keen on changing out the power supply, so I think I'll exhaust the other avenues of exploration first. I still have to do a test on the analog signal to see if the telltale noise philjsmith67 mentions is there.*



For your perusal, I posted two screenshots with the interference I was talking about from the power supply. These are screenshots of channels 2 and 5, taken while using the stock supply. As you can see, I had clear reception of both stations but the RFI was significantly stronger.


Both of these stations are clear and free of this interference using a 5VDC 3A regulated bench supply.

  


Click on either image to enlarge them.


----------



## spinnergy

Thanks Phil, I can safely say, I've seen nothing like that, so perhaps the power supply interference was isolated to a few units, including yours.


I have seen some horizontal noise resembling that pattern along the fringes of Jay Leno's jacket during playback of a recorded stream. It's very small but resembles the pattern you see on a very small scale.


Ironically, it only appears during playback. I did a screen capture and it does not show up on that.


----------



## PhilJSmith67




> Quote:
> I have seen some horizontal noise resembling that pattern along the fringes of Jay Leno's jacket during playback of a recorded stream. It's very small but resembles the pattern you see on a very small scale.



v2.700 gives you the option to let the player automatically switch between "Bob" and "Weave" deinterlacing algorithms, based on the detected resolution. I noticed that whenever the software elected to use "Weave" I could see alternate-field artifacts.


I took my player off Automatic and set it permanently to Bob. This looks best... Well, in my opinion it does, anyway.




> Quote:
> Thanks Phil, I can safely say, I've seen nothing like that ...



That's good that you haven't seen that. However, you mentioned in a prior post on this thread that you still hadn't tested for noise on VHF-Low *analog* stations. If that's still the case, you would never have seen anything similar to the screen shots I posted because digital signals never show RF interference.


----------



## Andytrackk

Hey guys im moving into my dorm in a few weeks with with my new 26inch Samsung HDTV (tx-p). I'm getting a Zenith Silver after reading enough of this form to know its the best for indoor use.


My question is this: I'm going to be about 8 miles away from the tower (in DC) with a not so great line of sight, being blocked by about 20 degrees by the rest of my huge dorm building. Is something like a channel master 7775 Preamplifier going to help me get a better signal or is it simply going to be; I either get a signal or its too blocked? (I'm going to mount it outside the window looking at the best signal i can get)


----------



## cpcat

I doubt the amp will help. You'll either get it or you won't due to multipath.

Try seeing if you can get the signal bouncing off of something else if it doesn't work pointed directly at the tower. Your other option would be horizontally stacking two silver sensors to help with the multipath, but I don't know how far into this you'll want to go.


----------



## Andytrackk

Damn...I just realized I was wrong about the location of my room, looks like my sight is completely blocked by the rest of the building. Guess this begs the question; how well does the signal travel through a cinderblock wall?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Andytrackk_
> *Guess this begs the question; how well does the signal travel through a cinderblock wall?*



Poorly. But if you're that close, you might be able to get a reflection off another building. Try "non-intuitive" aiming angles (up/down/etc) and see what you can get.


----------



## mikejz84

8 Miles is not that bad. I am about 25 miles from the towers and I get decent signals from my dorm room with a silver sensor w/o amp. The big key is to get plenty of coax so that you can move the antenna around alot. The signals are OK, some breaking up if the conditions are bad--but watchable! For reference my cell phone does not get a signal in my room, but outside it gets all the bars.


----------



## Alan Gordon

I live within the Albany, Georgia DMA. Earlier this year, I upgraded to HD by buying a DirecTV Hughes HTL-HD receiver, and one of the main things I wanted to enjoy with the receiver was two of my local channels that broadcast digitally. I live about 32/35 miles from my local NBC (WALB) and FOX (WFXL) affiliate's analog tower, and though I have always had issues with picking up their analog signal, I figured that living 7.9 miles away from my FOX affiliate's digital tower, and 8.1 miles away from my NBC affiliate's digital tower, but was unable to pick up either one when I plugged in my HTL-HD. I had a Recoton "omni-directional" antenna that picked up the analog channels with varying degrees of success, as I could pick up some stations from 50-70 miles away from me fine, but I couldn't pick up these digital stations 8 miles away from me. These stations are broadcasting on digital channels 12 and 17. I ended up trying to play around with things seeing if I could get a better signal out of the antenna and accidentally plugged in the wrong AC adapter into my antenna preamp and fried my antenna.


I was about to give up on getting in the digital channels when I was told that if I lived only 8 miles from each of my stations I should be able to pick up both of the stations using a Zenith Silver Sensor antenna. This person didn't know that one of my digital stations broadcasting on VHF, however I was quite pleased with the results as I was able to pick up my local FOX affiliate's analog signal great (never been able to get that good of a picture on that station with ANY antenna we've ever had), but no such luck on any of the digital stations as far as getting in a picture, but the signal meter did show a marked improvement on both station's signals.


Earlier this year I wrote a letter asking questions regarding their digital channels to both of the affiliates spoken of above, and didn't receive a reply from either. I then wrote back to my local FOX affiliate and this time I was answered. The General Manager seemed honestly surprised when I stated that I could not pick up his station's digital signal at 7.9 miles away, I then wrote him back informing him of the fact that I didn't have a large antenna, but that I have tried to pick up the signal using both a omni-directional antenna and the Zenith Silver Sensor. I have not received another reply back from him. However, whenever he said that I should receive their signal from 8 miles away, I started playing with the Silver Sensor and managed to pick up a station (WTVM-DT) broadcasting at 1000kw from 52.5 miles away from me sometimes during the Midnight to 10:00 A.M. hours, and I was even able to pick up WFXL-DT (the station 7.9 miles away from me) once or twice during the 10:00 P.M. - 12:00 A.M. hours with constant drop-outs, pixelation, audio drop-outs and whenever I'd turn on my Dolby Digital receiver, the picture would drop out entirely. Since then, I have also been able to pick up (two out of three days a week) WCTV-DT broadcasting 73 miles away from with a solid signal (often more solid than my satellite signal) during the 11:00 P.M. to 3:00 A.M. hours, and WFSU-DT (which antennaweb.org doesn't even list when I enter my address) pretty much EVERY night between the hours of 11:00 P.M. - 6:00 A.M. During the daytime hours of 11:00 A.M. to 7:00 P.M., I get no signal on my signal meter for any of these stations except for WALB-DT and WFXL-DT.



I was told on another message board that WFXL-DT is broadcasting at 177 watts at 302 feet 7.9 miles away from me on channel 12, and WALB-DT is broadcasting at 29000 watts at 249 feet on channel 17 at 8.1 miles away from me. Using the Silver Sensor at 9.5 feet high, I can usually pick up a signal on my meter about halfway between "Bad" and "Normal" 24 hours a day on WFXL-DT, and I can usually pick up WALB-DT's signal halfway between non-existent and the halfway point between "Bad" and "Normal". This signal increases to halfway between "Bad" and "Normal" to 75% of the "Bad" bar being covered on certain nights when I tend to get a better signal out of all the channels, and still no picture. WFXL-DT goes to anywhere between 75% of the "Bad" bar being covered to it creeping in the "Normal" bar during certain days with extreme pixelation.


With the fact that I'd like to have access to NBC HD programming and soon FOX HD programming (my station should get the Splicer anytime), I'm very interested in getting these channels. I live at home with my Mom and Grandmother, and due to having several large multi-directional antennas getting struck by lightning and a tornado that would have ripped off the antenna had it still been there, I am not able to put up another large antenna... however, I may be able to put up a Winegard SquareShooter on our satellite dish at around 10 and a half feet high. I do not believe I have any tall buildings blocking my way, but I do have trees over 30 feet tall that are in front of my view to the towers.


My question is this. Taking into account all the information above (sorry about the long read, I tend to rant), do you think that a SquareShooter will be any help to me, or will I just have to wait until July 31, 2006 to see NBC HD and FOX HD programming?!


----------



## PhilJSmith67

What is the terrain like in your area? The 177w station will be tough *anywhere*, but the 29k-watter should be possible. Maybe you're getting more multipath than the receiver can tolerate? Hmmm...


I just travelled through the Atlanta metro recently, and as I expected, WTBS was alive and well on 17. Without checking the FCC DB, I gather from your post that one of your digital signals is also on 17? Out of curiousity, do you know if WTBS was receivable at your location prior to the digital signal? If so, you might be struggling with co-channel interference.


I have a similar issue with WBBM-DT Ch3 Chicago (digital) versus WCIA Ch3 Champaign (analog). Very predictably, if I am having trouble getting WBBM-DT, bets are that if I spin the dial to Ch12 I'll see WILL-TV Urbana/Champaign skipping in. Even though I can't *see* WCIA, if the tropo skip is rolling in from my south, it totally takes out the Chicago station to the north. Unfortunately I only have an indoor antenna; thus, no parasitic element to kill reception of stations 180-degrees in the opposite direction.


With UHF, you might be able to find a "hot spot" for WALB-DT that is also a cold spot for WTBS. Have you tried simply probing around the house with a $4 bowtie on the end of some coax?


----------



## Alan Gordon




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by PhilJSmith67_
> *What is the terrain like in your area? The 177w station will be tough *anywhere*, but the 29k-watter should be possible. Maybe you're getting more multipath than the receiver can tolerate? Hmmm...*



Well, that's the weird thing. I get a MUCH better signal from the 177w station with the Silver Sensor using VERY little effort on my part than I do with the "29k-watter" which I have to move the antenna around like crazy trying to find a spot where the signal is strongest... and it should be the other way around as the 177w station is VHF. Also, I have learned that height doesn't matter much, but that could be due to the fact that I live on a high spot for the area (at least that's what I've been told). The terrain is mostly farmland for miles, though there are radio station towers in the area and cell phone towers (I believe) too! It's mostly rural areas (farmland, trees, etc, etc) between the towers and my location.



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by PhilJSmith67_ *I just travelled through the Atlanta metro recently, and as I expected, WTBS was alive and well on 17. Without checking the FCC DB, I gather from your post that one of your digital signals is also on 17? Out of curiousity, do you know if WTBS was receivable at your location prior to the digital signal? If so, you might be struggling with co-channel interference.*




Years ago (before all the trouble with lightning) I had a large multi-directional antenna on a rotor, and I was able to pick up WTBS one night very well, but I was only able to pick it up that one night. It was kind of exciting as we didn't have satellite then, and CableTV is not available at our location. However, I live in South Georgia, so I assume that I'm pretty good distance from WTBS.



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by PhilJSmith67_ *With UHF, you might be able to find a "hot spot" for WALB-DT that is also a cold spot for WTBS. Have you tried simply probing around the house with a $4 bowtie on the end of some coax?*



I've tried my Omni-Directional antenna, which as I said before picked up a (analog) station 73 miles away from me better than some of my closer stations. I think that the antenna was probably a really good one, but considering the "reception" problems in my area, it just couldn't cut the digital channels. I then tried rabbit ears, both the "fancier" type rabbit ears, and the simple rabbit ears on the end of some coax, and I didn't get ANY signal whatsoever trying them... well, the "fancy rabbit ears" got a tad bit of a signal on the 177w station.



~Alan


----------



## mhaider

I live in NE South Dakota and to my dismay I can not receive KABY-DT uhf 28 in Watertown, SD. I emailed the station engineer and was told I should be able to receive it. I installed a Channel Master 3679 with the 7777 pre amp, I aimed it in the direction listed by antennaweb.org, 285 degress, checked the signal strength on my HD Dtivo and nothing, zero signal, I can get their analog signal beautifully though. After doing some research it looks like KABY-DT's signal isn't even being sent my direction which is at about 105 degrees at a distance of 40 miles from the tower. I got this info from www.2150.com and from www.fccinfo.com, they both show a graph of their coverage area. So why do they use a directional antenna and keep their signal from my area? I emailed all this info to the station engineer but I haven't heard anything back. I bought the CM 3679 because I have a station on vhf channel 2 that I receive.


----------



## Alan Gordon




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mhaider_
> *I got this info from www.2150.com and from www.fccinfo.com, they both show a graph of their coverage area. So why do they use a directional antenna and keep their signal from my area?*




I went to www.2150.com and got a picture, but nothing else. I then went to www.fccinfo.com and I did find out that my local NBC affiliate is using a "directional" antenna, but I can't find anywhere to see if they are broadcasting their signal toward my area. I did however recently check a website CheckHD which is currently down that showed WALB-DT's signal (and WFXL-DT) covering my area. Where did you look to find the coverage area?!


However, in response to your question (and I know nothing about this stuff, BUT) I would imagine a directional antenna would be cheaper in some way, otherwise I don't see any reason why they would do this.


On another related note though is that one of the digital stations I can occasionally pick up, I have written their engineer and he was impressed that I could pick up their signal as I am not only 52.5 miles away from their tower (in which they are broadcasting at 1000kw), but I'm also BEHIND their "directional antenna"!!










~Alan


----------



## mhaider




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Alan Gordon_
> *I went to www.2150.com and got a picture, but nothing else. I then went to www.fccinfo.com and I did find out that my local NBC affiliate is using a "directional" antenna, but I can't find anywhere to see if they are broadcasting their signal toward my area. I did however recently check a website CheckHD which is currently down that showed WALB-DT's signal (and WFXL-DT) covering my area. Where did you look to find the coverage area?!
> 
> 
> However, in response to your question (and I know nothing about this stuff, BUT) I would imagine a directional antenna would be cheaper in some way, otherwise I don't see any reason why they would do this.
> 
> 
> On another related note though is that one of the digital stations I can occasionally pick up, I have written their engineer and he was impressed that I could pick up their signal as I am not only 52.5 miles away from their tower (in which they are broadcasting at 1000kw), but I'm also BEHIND their "directional antenna"!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ~Alan*



It seems that not all stations have a graph of their broadcast area. I noticed this after looking at some other stations in my area.


----------



## cpcat

"Where did you look to find the coverage area?!"




WALB-DT is directional to the north and WALX-DT is non-directional. Go to

http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/ga/tv_information.asp?m=alb and click on "complete FCC data" for the analog station and it will give you the info for both analog and digitals.


For some reason that link doesn't work, try this one:
http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/...tion.asp?m=alb


----------



## Alan Gordon




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *WALB-DT is directional to the north and WALX-DT is non-directional.*




Hmm, well, I've actually been to that page before, and found out some interesting info (although I've found that almost every single page about HD in the area tends to have different "facts") but I must admit to not being very knowledgeable when it comes to understanding a lot of that. It's something I have learned more about in the last year, but still lack the know-how to fully comprehend the data.


However, while I knew that WFXL-DT was non-directional (which also helps explain why I get a better signal from them than WALB-DT), I was unaware that WALB-DT was directional to the North. Makes sense for them to be pointing it toward the Leesburg area, and since I'm West (sorta Northwest actually), it's a little better than I expected. There is a link on the site showing where WALB-DT's transmitter is and the surrounding area. Click HERE to see it. I live on that red line (before you get to the end). Is there any hope of picking up that signal?!



~Alan


----------



## taz291819




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Alan Gordon_
> *Hmm, well, I've actually been to that page before, and found out some interesting info (although I've found that almost every single page about HD in the area tends to have different "facts") but I must admit to not being very knowledgeable when it comes to understanding a lot of that. It's something I have learned more about in the last year, but still lack the know-how to fully comprehend the data.
> 
> 
> However, while I knew that WFXL-DT was non-directional (which also helps explain why I get a better signal from them than WALB-DT), I was unaware that WALB-DT was directional to the North. Makes sense for them to be pointing it toward the Leesburg area, and since I'm West (sorta Northwest actually), it's a little better than I expected. There is a link on the site showing where WALB-DT's transmitter is and the surrounding area. Click HERE to see it. I live on that red line (before you get to the end). Is there any hope of picking up that signal?!
> 
> 
> 
> ~Alan*



Alan, I would suggest a Channel Master 4228 antenna with a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp. This setup should work just fine for you. I use the same setup (though a CM7775 preamp) and pick up stations perfectly at 62 miles away (one outputting at 4.2kW). Also, I can pick up a station 94 miles away in the evening, most of the time. The CM4228 is a high-gain UHF antenna, but will also pick up the high-band VHF channels also, so this should work fine for you. Also, if you don't get a good enough signal while aiming the antenna directly at the tower, rotate it around some (between 10-20 degrees), because the signal may reflect of an object, this is what I have to do with the 4.2kW station. One more thing, if the antenna and preamp is getting too much gain from a station, it will overload the ATSC tuner and act like you aren't getting any signal. With the CM4228 (and CM4221), you can rotate the antenna 180-degrees and try picking it up off the backside.


----------



## Alan Gordon




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by taz291819_
> *Alan, I would suggest a Channel Master 4228 antenna with a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp. This setup should work just fine for you.*




Unfortunately, I am not able to put one of those up! My choices are really either use a Winegard "SquareShooter", indoor antenna, OR possibly a Winegard Sensar II. My best shot would be one of the first two though...



~Alan


----------



## mhaider




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Alan Gordon_
> *Unfortunately, I am not able to put one of those up! My choices are really either use a Winegard "SquareShooter", indoor antenna, OR possibly a Winegard Sensar II. My best shot would be one of the first two though...
> 
> 
> 
> ~Alan*



Alan,


If you're interested in the Winegard Sensar II, I just took mine down last Wednesday and installed a CM antenna. The Sensar is in perfect condition, I had it up about three months, the reason I took it down is because I live in a rural area and I just needed a bigger antenna. I plan on putting it on Ebay, that's where I got it, so if you're interested PM me.


Mark


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Alan Gordon_
> *I went to www.2150.com and got a picture, but nothing else.*


 www.2150.com/broadcast


----------



## cpcat

Alan,

The NBC is doable at 35 mi and 29kw (you're well within the directional grid with significant signal towards you) with something like a CM 4221 outdoors or maybe a 4228 in the attic. The 1700 watt Fox station I'd say you're best chance would be an outdoor high band vhf antenna like an Antennacraft y10 7-13 or even a cut channel 12 from various manufacturers. I don't really think you've got a chance on the low power vhf station with an indoor antenna. The VHF channel may register higher on your meter currently but that doesn't always mean much. VHF seems to register higher without getting a watchable signal in my experience.


----------



## Alan Gordon




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *The NBC is doable at 35 mi and 29kw (you're well within the directional grid with significant signal towards you) with something like a CM 4221 outdoors or maybe a 4228 in the attic.*



Actually, the NBC is 8.1 miles away from me at 29kw. Actually, we don't have an attic or else I would have put a BIG SUCKER in there YEARS ago!!!



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_ *The 1700 watt Fox station I'd say you're best chance would be an outdoor high band vhf antenna like an Antennacraft y10 7-13 or even a cut channel 12 from various manufacturers. I don't really think you've got a chance on the low power vhf station with an indoor antenna.*




Actually, I've manage to pick up the FOX channel 12 with a Zenith Silver Sensor around the midnight area with extremely bad pixelation, audio breakups (and loss of picture when I fire up my DD receiver). The other problem is the channel doesn't come in any earlier when my local FOX affiliate will be showing the programs in HD. The programs not in HD, I can watch a good signal of the analog version using my Silver Sensor.




> Quote:
> _The VHF channel may register higher on your meter currently but that doesn't always mean much. VHF seems to register higher without getting a watchable signal in my experience. [/b]
> _


_


Well, that has generally been my experience too, as I've managed to pick up WFSU-DT (32), WCTV-DT (46) and WTVM-DT (47) with a smaller signal than WFXL-DT (12), but just a hair difference. However, I have managed to get a signal from WALB-DT (17) up to the same amount as I have gotten WFXL-DT (12), and gotten NO picture from it whatsoever. Another weird thing is that I know someone who has gotten in WFXL-DT from (about) ANOTHER 8 miles away from me (16 miles away from the tower instead of my 7.9 miles) using a Winegard Sensar Array on a 30 foot pole. They were not able to get WALB-DT in at all.


I have also experienced that several of the stations (WFSU-DT, WTVM-DT) I have managed to pick up had a higher signal when I put the Silver Sensor on top of the TV whereas when I sat it up on a stack of stuff (which is what I have to do to pick up WCTV-DT, or get a better signal out of WFXL-DT and WALB-DT), they don't have a signal, or start having drop-outs in picture and sound.



~Alan_


----------



## housecor

I'm experiencing a very strange phenomenon: I'm using a Zenith Silver Sensor sitting on top of my media rack and any time I utilize an optical audio out on my receiver my OTA signal strength drops by 25% or more. Only optical - use of any other type of connection causes no loss. I'm using quad shielded RG6 so interference should be a non-issue, right? Any ideas why this is occuring? And more importantly, how to fix the issue?


----------



## SMT

I need some help with getting NBC. I currently have a Winegard HD6065P installed outside. I have problems getting a strong signal locked in 40% of the time. When I tune it and get about 89 signal strength (best I can get), it then will drop to mid 30's and bounce back to 80 on occasion, resulting in signal not found displayed. Should I upgrade the antenna agiain? Is there a certain time of day that I should tune it in? I do not have any hills or trees in the line of sight and am about 48 miles from the tower. Its digital channel 41 in my area, N. of Dallas TX. Thanks for any suggestions.


----------



## Alan Gordon




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by housecor_
> *I'm experiencing a very strange phenomenon: I'm using a Zenith Silver Sensor sitting on top of my media rack and any time I utilize an optical audio out on my receiver my OTA signal strength drops by 25% or more.*




I can't really help you, but I also have the same problem.



~Alan


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> I need some help with getting NBC. I currently have a Winegard HD6065P installed outside. I have problems getting a strong signal locked in 40% of the time. When I tune it and get about 89 signal strength (best I can get), it then will drop to mid 30's and bounce back to 80 on occasion, resulting in signal not found displayed. Should I upgrade the antenna agiain? Is there a certain time of day that I should tune it in? I do not have any hills or trees in the line of sight and am about 48 miles from the tower. Its digital channel 41 in my area, N. of Dallas TX. Thanks for any suggestions.



That's an FM antenna which will do very poorly at uhf frequencies. I'm surprised you're getting any signal at all. That station is 890kw at 48 miles non-directional so you should be able to easily get it with something like a CM 4221 but a CM 4228 might be safer especially if you have other stations that are weaker that you're going for. I'm assuming you use it also for FM? FM can be a source of preamp overload as well and often you can't have both TV/FM over the same line if using a preamp. If you're not using a preamp then it may not be a problem except for maybe vhf channels 6 and 7 (as long as strong local FM signals don't overload your digital receiver). FYI the FM band is between VHF channels 6 and 7.


----------



## PhilJSmith67

Wow. Good catch, cpcat.


A preamp on an FM antenna will probably harm channel 6 (82-88 MHz), but it will cause even more trouble for channels 8 through 13 (which span 180-216 MHz). This is because the first harmonic of FM stations falls in those channels. Amplifiers can cause harmonics for existing stations that they receive and amplify.


I have a 50kW blowtorch down the road from me on 99.9, and it kills Channel 11 on any type of roof antenna, unless I insert an FM Trap on the line.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> I have a 50kW blowtorch down the road from me on 99.9, and it kills Channel 11 on any type of roof antenna, unless I insert an FM Trap on the line.



Something similar happened to me. I was trying out a preamplifier manufactured in England hooked to my UHF antenna. I was frustrated as heck because I couldn't get a signal (even on the strong stations) with this fancy expensive new preamp I'd just bought.

I put in an FM trap I happened to have and viola! Maybe they don't use FM in England, I'm not sure.


----------



## taz291819

Does FM screw up Ch. 5? My Winegard VHF pre-amp has a built-in FM trap, which I set to FM Trap-In, but I just want to make sure. BTW, it's connected to a single-channel antenna.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Alan Gordon_
> *Unfortunately, I am not able to put one of those up! My choices are really either use a Winegard "SquareShooter", indoor antenna, OR possibly a Winegard Sensar II. My best shot would be one of the first two though...
> *



Alan, it sounds like you're trying to do this with an indoor antenna. I don't have to tell you that indoor installations aren't nearly as good as outdoor ones. However, since you're trying to get difficult stations (based on wattage and directionality), I'd strongly suggest getting at least a Channel Master 4-bay or 8-bay antenna. They *can* be installed indoors. The 4-bay is 4 feet tall by 2 feet wide and the 8-bay is 4x4. They should give you a significant upgrade over your current setup.


As an alternative, you could look into AntennasDirect's 2-bay DB2, 4-bay DB4 or 8-bay DB8. Generally, the AntennasDirect bowtie-models outperform Channel Master's by a small margin.


----------



## Alan Gordon




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *Alan, it sounds like you're trying to do this with an indoor antenna. I don't have to tell you that indoor installations aren't nearly as good as outdoor ones.*



Whenever I first got my Hughes HTL-HD receiver, I had my system hooked up to a omni-directional antenna (I know, I know), but it had a "accident", and I was told that if I got a Silver Sensor antenna and couldn't receive channels from 8 miles away, something was wrong. I got it and I got a stronger signal than I did, but it was still no picture. Recently I wrote my local FOX station regarding their digital channel and was told that they were surprised I couldn't get their digital signal (they must have assumed that I was using a large antenna). I decided then to try and play with the Silver Sensor some and started finding out that I could (sometimes) pick up WCTV-DT from 73 miles away, WFSU-DT (from I don't know how many miles away), but both those stations are broadcasting at full-power. However, I have also been able to pick up (on several occasions) WTVM-DT from 52.5 miles away broadcasting at 20kw at 300 feet on the backside of their directional antenna yet I have only been able to pick up WFXL-DT a few times from 7.9 miles away and NEVER been able to pick up WALB-DT from 8.1 miles away.




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *However, since you're trying to get difficult stations (based on wattage and directionality), I'd strongly suggest getting at least a Channel Master 4-bay or 8-bay antenna. They *can* be installed indoors. The 4-bay is 4 feet tall by 2 feet wide and the 8-bay is 4x4. They should give you a significant upgrade over your current setup.*



If it was up to me, I'd put up whatever I needed to, but I still live at home, and due to my financial status, I probably will be for another two years. My Mom does NOT want a large antenna outside. We've had them over the years, but lightning doesn't want us having them, or our neighbors (my Uncle and Aunt) who took their antenna down years ago. Several people on here have mentioned that I could get one of these antennas installed in the attic, but since we don't have one, that's not really an option for me.


In fact, my only options really seem to be a Winegard SquareShooter or a Winegard Sensar Array antenna mounted on our satellite pole at 10.5 feet high. I have had high hopes that the SquareShooter would pick up the signal I was wanting but I never could find out what "color" the SquareShooter was supposed to be, but I read yesterday that it was listed as red, and since Antennaweb.org says that is what I need to pick up those two channels, I think I will give it a try and pick-up and install the antenna next week. If that doesn't work, I guess my next try would either be the Sensar Array antenna or just wait until the stations power up by July 31st 2006, if I still live here by that time!











~Alan


----------



## taz291819

The CM4221 or 4228 is not much larger than the square shooter.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by taz291819_
> *The CM4221 or 4228 is not much larger than the square shooter.*



The Square Shooter is about 16" square. The 4221 is about twice the size. The 4228 is double that of the 4221.


----------



## PhilJSmith67




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by taz291819_
> *Does FM screw up Ch. 5?*



If the FM stations are strong enough, they could cause cross-modulation products with an amplifier that could affect any VHF channel. Even if the interference isn't visible on any channel, it could still be causing the receiver to desensitize. The net result is lower effective TV signal levels reported by the receiver.


If you've ever listened to a distant FM station while driving by a radio tower of another station that's close to the same frequency, you've experienced desensitization, in which the radio gets a "muddy" sound or completely loses the station momentarily.


----------



## phenom

I'm in metro Detroit and am getting a 4228 installed tomorrow.


For the past two years I've used a handful of antennas, including the Silver Sensor, various Terk POS', Radio Shack models, and a Jensen powered antenna that gave me the best performance, until it died, that is. All these antennas were indoor. The Silver Sensor is working fine for Olympic coverage on WDIV, Detroit's NBC station, and is set up as a temporary solution since my Jensen died and until my 4228 is installed.


I'm pretty excited about having this antenna installed, especially since this'll be the third try, with the first two appointments being cancelled for various reasons.


I'm about 22-25 miles from the transmitters, so I'm thinking the 4228 should give me good service. I'll try to update here after the install just as an FYI.


----------



## taz291819




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dswallow_
> *The Square Shooter is about 16" square. The 4221 is about twice the size. The 4228 is double that of the 4221.*



The 4221 is 20" x 35"

The 4228 is 39.5" x 36"


Though the 4228 is roughly twice the size of the Square Shooter, it's still relatively small compared to most yagis.


I'll admit the 4228 is a heavy SOB for it's size.


----------



## lenbo

I've got a channel master 4228 and cm 7775 amp . The antenna is mounted outside. I found out after I got the amp a couple of the stations I want are digital VHF







. How can I get a VHF antenna in the mix without a new amp ? BTW the wife factor says if I get another antenna it has to go in the attic. Any idea's or suggestions would be appreciated . Thanks


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by lenbo_
> *I've got a channel master 4228 and cm 7775 amp . The antenna is mounted outside. I found out after I got the amp a couple of the stations I want are digital VHF
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . How can I get a VHF antenna in the mix without a new amp ? BTW the wife factor says if I get another antenna it has to go in the attic. Any idea's or suggestions would be appreciated . Thanks*



The CM7775 preamplifier does NOT PASS VHF. This is why I usually recommend that people buy the 7777 or a Winegard model.


You could buy a VHF antenna like the Winegard PR5030 or if you just need hi-VHF (channels 7-13) you could look at the Winegard YA-1713. But you're going to have to run a separate coax line from that antenna to the point *after* the indoor unit of your preamp if you keep the 7775. They can then be combined with a simple splitter used in reverse (2 inputs, one output.)


----------



## PhilJSmith67




> Quote:
> BTW the wife factor says if I get another antenna it has to go in the attic. Any idea's or suggestions would be appreciated . Thanks



My ex-wife said if I put up another antenna she would divorce me.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> I've got a channel master 4228 and cm 7775 amp . The antenna is mounted outside. I found out after I got the amp a couple of the stations I want are digital VHF . How can I get a VHF antenna in the mix without a new amp ? BTW the wife factor says if I get another antenna it has to go in the attic. Any idea's or suggestions would be appreciated . Thanks



Your best option is to bite the bullet and get the 7777 amp, then use it on the combined setting for uhf/vhf. The 4228 is a pretty good antenna for the high band vhf and would probably be better outside for high band vhf than any antenna in your attic would be.


Another option would be to find a uhf/vhf diplexer that passes DC on the uhf leg. This way you could insert another vhf antenna anywhere along the line and still get the DC power to the 7775 on the 4228. You'd rather keep the preamp as close to the antenna as possible. VHF has relatively little loss along the cable length so you should be able to get away with not amplifying it.


----------



## lenbo

Whats the range of VHF signals ? I understand the curvature of the earth comes in to play with UHF, is VHF the same ? The digital hi-band VHF station I want to get is 72 miles away. Could the Antennacraft Y10-7-13 be used for my needs ? Thanks to everyone that has helped me !!! This is a great forum .


----------



## cpcat

VHF at 72 miles is very doable if the station is at full power. What station are you trying for? I couldn't find a digital vhf other than an NBC 2 in your area. Go to http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/...tion.asp?m=mob for your area station info (in case you didn't know of this link already).


Ahh, WALA FOX is it? I missed it the first time I looked. AFAICT, it is at 124kw non-directional which is pretty much smokin' power for vhf. The Y10 7-13 should do fine barring some obstruction or geographical problem.


I forgot, this is in your attic, isn't it? I still think you need to consider the 7777 and use your outside 4228. I think a 4228 outside may still be better than the 7-13 in your attic.


----------



## phenom

The 4228 got installed today, and it's sweet. You can't see it at all from the front or even side of the house, it's only visible from the back, which is perfect. I'm now getting what appears to be an 80-90% signal (it's a bar, not a number) on all the .1 channels, which is awesome.


Only thing that's kind of a drag is that the signal doesn't pass thru my 5x8 multiswitch very well, and I can't get anything OTA on the other side of the diplexer. Installer called the owner of his company and was told that the multiswitch can oftentimes degrade the signal, sometimes so much so that it virtually kills it. Not a real big deal though, I'll just get a splitter if I need to send the signal elsewhere.


So, I'm rockin and rollin with a new antenna, and I'm happy that I won't have to fidget with the stupid indoor antenna anymore


----------



## lenbo

Thanks for the info, good link . Gonna try and convince the wife about getting the y10-7-13 outside. You were correct about FOX , I have this station on my locals with directv but I want to watch my Saints in HD !!! Again thanks for the help, I'll post the results once I get everything up and running.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by lenbo_
> *Whats the range of VHF signals ? I understand the curvature of the earth comes in to play with UHF, is VHF the same ? The digital hi-band VHF station I want to get is 72 miles away. Could the Antennacraft Y10-7-13 be used for my needs ? Thanks to everyone that has helped me !!! This is a great forum .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



VHF bends very readily. Your primary problem may be co-channel interference. Co-channel interference is when two stations are on the same frequency, in different directions. For instance, I have a Channel 2 that is 75 miles north of me, and another that is about 100 miles south. Sometimes I can't get either of them clearly because the other is overriding the signal.


Also, VHF can suffer interference with tropospheric ducting and e-skip, where distant signals propogate long distances. Although not terribly common, there will be days where you probably won't be able to watch your 72-mile VHF signal and will be able to watch another VHF signal from 1000 miles away. I've received Flagstaff, AZ from southeastern Minnesota once, while a local station 45 miles away was a mess of interference.


----------



## drjeckl




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by phenom_
> *The 4228 got installed today, and it's sweet. You can't see it at all from the front or even side of the house, it's only visible from the back, which is perfect. I'm now getting what appears to be an 80-90% signal (it's a bar, not a number) on all the .1 channels, which is awesome.
> 
> 
> Only thing that's kind of a drag is that the signal doesn't pass thru my 5x8 multiswitch very well, and I can't get anything OTA on the other side of the diplexer. Installer called the owner of his company and was told that the multiswitch can oftentimes degrade the signal, sometimes so much so that it virtually kills it. Not a real big deal though, I'll just get a splitter if I need to send the signal elsewhere.
> 
> 
> So, I'm rockin and rollin with a new antenna, and I'm happy that I won't have to fidget with the stupid indoor antenna anymore*



I have started to think this way about the OTA going thru the multiswitch and needing a diplexer and replacing it with a straight coax run from the antenna to the receiver. KISS is hitting me in the face. Pay the extra cost of the coax run versus getting fancy with a multiswitch which takes in the antenna feed and then using the diplexer. Put a splitter on the antenna and deal with it. I'm planning on getting the HD DirecTivo and the OTA receiver in the box is claimed to be very signal sensitive. For my other HDTV, I was planning on getting the HTL-HD or the Sammy TS360. Anybody have issues with the OTA portion of those receivers?


----------



## cmdridq

I'm sure there is a simple, obvious answer to my question, so let me apologize for asking right now.


I had used antennaweb.org to get station info previously, but for some reason it won't work for me now, and I can't see why not. Can anyone tell why this isn't working?


1. I go to the home page and select "Choose an antenna"

2. On the next page I enter my address/zip info and click "submit"

3. It takes me to the "Stations" page, and I click "Show all stations"

4. Then, no matter if I hit 'enter' or select "View street level map", it just brings me back to the "Stations" page again. I can't get it to show the channel list, etc. ???


I appreciate your indulgence.


----------



## cpcat

It goes down from time to time. I'd just try again later.


----------



## lenbo

My main DTV station's are at 260-270 degree's. There's one DTV station I would like to get at 180 degree's from the main one's. Can I take the screen off the 4228 to get the off axis station without loosing the main stations ? Is the screen there for gain or to block multi-path signals and ghosting ? Since all I want is DTV stations would this work ?


----------



## dswallow

lenbo, is the off-axis station at full power and not too far away? You might be just fine. I can get the full power NYC stations 30 miles away when aiming about 120 degrees away towards Philadelphia with my 4228.


----------



## lenbo

Took the screen off the channel master 4228 to try and get a additional channel . Well I had success. WTVY comes in just great .The other channels don't appear to have suffered any , in fact they all seem to come in a few points better.


----------



## phenom




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by drjeckl_
> *I have started to think this way about the OTA going thru the multiswitch and needing a diplexer and replacing it with a straight coax run from the antenna to the receiver. KISS is hitting me in the face. Pay the extra cost of the coax run versus getting fancy with a multiswitch which takes in the antenna feed and then using the diplexer. Put a splitter on the antenna and deal with it. I'm planning on getting the HD DirecTivo and the OTA receiver in the box is claimed to be very signal sensitive. For my other HDTV, I was planning on getting the HTL-HD or the Sammy TS360. Anybody have issues with the OTA portion of those receivers?*



Yeah, I went out and picked up another diplexer, and had no luck with it at all. I already had the coax run for the antenna, since I had an inside antenna before, so no big deal. I just hoped I'd get the most out of my multiswitch.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by lenbo_
> *Is the screen there for gain or to block multi-path signals and ghosting ?*



For posterity in the thread, here's the answer.


The screen provides two functions. First, it reflects the signal from the primary direction *back* at the active elements, effectively doubling gain. Secondly, the screen rejects signals from the opposite direction, increasing the front-to-back ratio of the antenna. This rejection helps to block multipath (which looks like ghosting on analog signals, so your "and ghosting" is redundant.)


Removing the screen will work in some situations and not in others. For very weak signals, or in areas with extreme multipath, removing the screen will likely cause problems. The only way to know for sure is to try.


----------



## bfranci

Hey guys, I'm in the West L.A., CA. area and I'm thinking of jumping to DirecTV and getting locals with an off air antenna. Couple hitches to that are that I live in a condo on the first floor (out of 2 floors), and there's a pretty big building right next to me.


The HOA should allow me to put the dish on a common wall (there are 3 others already there), but as for an antenna, I have no clue. The best bet would seem to be one of those clip on dish antennas, but as I've seen no mention of them here, not sure how well it would perform getting HD signals. According to antennaweb, I'm about 21 miles away from the transmimtters, and need a yellow level antenna (unless I tell it I'm in a multi story building, in which case it says I need a red).


Any suggestions would be appreciated as to a good solution to get the best HD signal possible.


Thanks!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by bfranci_
> *The best bet would seem to be one of those clip on dish antennas, but as I've seen no mention of them here, not sure how well it would perform getting HD signals. According to antennaweb, I'm about 21 miles away from the transmimtters, and need a yellow level antenna (unless I tell it I'm in a multi story building, in which case it says I need a red).
> *



The reason why it's not mentioned (though you could do a search and find lots of mentions of it) is because all the clip-on antennas are horrible performers. You would do better with a quality indoor antenna like the Zenith Silver Sensor. That'd be my first try, as well.


----------



## GRN

Not that I'm thinking of getting it, but does anyone know how well (or horribly, be that as it may) the TERK HDTVi(ndoor) antenna works........................?


----------



## PhilJSmith67

Reports are mixed between good and fair on technical performance, but in common with most reports is the excessive drain on the wallet component.


----------



## Ephemeral




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by GRN_
> *Not that I'm thinking of getting it, but does anyone know how well (or horribly, be that as it may) the TERK HDTVi(ndoor) antenna works........................?*



If you're referring to the one that retails for $40 at places like Best Buy- don't bother- I picked up a whopping four channels with it and none of them even had a stable signal. I was hoping to upgrade from my VHF/UHF "Rabbit Ears" antenna which picked up 16 channels and most were watchable. You may have better luck but for me this thing just flat out doesn't work.


----------



## igreg

Indoor antenna sufficient for HDTV?


I have ordered the Gemini ZHDTV1 HDTV-UHF Digital Indoor Antenna. This antenna has great reviews at amazon.com. In fact, the reviews are better than I have seen for any piece of electronic equipment, ever.


My question is would I also benefit from installing the Winegards SS-1000, or the SS-2000 antenna which has a built-in 12dB UHF/VHF amplifier better suited for HDTV OFF-AIR reception? (Does the HR 10-250 have inputs for two antenna? The reason I ask is I have heard that to receive all HDTV signals you may need to change the direction of your antenna, and if you only had a stationary outdoor antenna, wouldn't this then present a limitation in this regard?)



I would save time and money if I had the firm that installs my new triple LNB satellite dish and new cables would install this antenna at the same time, if needed.


The installer said I could probably get by with the indoor antenna do to my close location to the HDTV towers. But then he stated that for best reception of non-HD channels I should watch the local over-the-air station broadcasts rather than the local station broadcasts from DirecTV. He told me that the over-the-air broadcast of the local channels are all digital. I had thought that all over-the-air channels with the exception of 480p and above were analog. I guess I was wrong in believing this?


But then after talking to him I thought if I were to follow his advice then shouldn't I get an antennae that also excels at receiving VHF signals? (The Gemini ZHDTV1 HDTV-UHF is principally a UHF antennae.)



Thanks.


----------



## PhilJSmith67

If you live in an area where you already have VHF DTV stations, of course you'll want a VHF antenna.


Furthermore, if any of your analog stations are currently on VHF, *and* you don't plan on replacing your antenna again in 2007 or so, get a VHF antenna now. The reason is that many of the VHF stations (especially VHF-High ch 7 through 13) temporarily on UHF for DTV will return to VHF after the "analog sunset."


----------



## igreg

Thanks. Now wondering whether I can actually receive these over-the-air non-HD channels with my HR 10-250 and pending Panasonic commercial plasma? Apparently the Panny does not have a NTSC tuner; does the

HR 10-250 have a NTSC tuner? IF not, then what must I purchase/install to receive these stations? Thanks!


----------



## Southern Soul

I live in about 30 miles west of Nashville, TN (37187). I live on the top of a hill in a single story home. I have a CM 3014 (UHF range 15 miles, VHF 25 miles)antenna in my attic, a CM 3043 distribution amp, and 30-40' of Walmart cable going in to a cheap 2-way splitter and then a Motorola HDT100. The following is my list of channels at my address:


* yellow - vhf WSMV-DT 4.1 NBC Nashville TN 83° 19.9 10

* yellow - uhf WTVF-DT 5.1 CBS NASHVILLE TN 65° 26.7 56

* yellow - uhf WNPT-DT 46.1 PBS NASHVILLE TN Testing 101° 21.9 46

* yellow - uhf WNPX-DT 28.1 PAX Cookeville TN 66° 26.2 36

* yellow - uhf WKRN-DT 2.1 ABC Nashville TN 101° 21.9 27

* lt green - uhf WZTV-DT 17.1 FOX NASHVILLE TN 66° 26.2 15

* red - uhf WNAB-DT 58.1 WB NASHVILLE TN 66° 26.2 23

* violet - uhf WUXP-DT 30.1 UPN NASHVILLE TN 66° 26.2 21


I receive all the channels with zero problems except for PBS, PAX, and UPN. PBS has some dropout, but is watchable . PAX tunes and remaps on my stb, but is pixelated or dropped 95% of the time and is unwatchable. UPN, being the worst of the three, will not tune at all.


In what logical order should I start changing or upgrading to pull in these three channels? My UHF stations are 5-10 miles over the antenna's rated range, so should I start with a different antenna? Upgrade the coax and spliiter? Buy a preamp? Am I trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip by mounting in the attic? Can you use the analog station to judge the strength of the digital signal?


----------



## igreg

Here's my local stations based on http://www.antennaweb.org :


* yellow - uhf KXTV-DT 10.1 ABC Sacramento CA 185° 16.6 61

* yellow - uhf KTXL-DT 40.1 FOX Sacramento CA 189° 14.7 55

* yellow - uhf KVIE-DT 6.1 PBS Sacramento CA 189° 14.7 53

* yellow - uhf KSPX-DT 48 PAX SACRAMENTO CA FCC Ext 190° 15.1 48

* yellow - uhf KQCA-DT 58.1 WB STOCKTON CA 181° 14.4 46

* yellow - uhf KOVR-DT 13.1 CBS Stockton CA 185° 16.6 25

* yellow - uhf KMAX-DT 31.1 UPN SACRAMENTO CA 186° 14.8 21

* yellow - uhf KCRA-DT 3.1 NBC Sacramento CA 186° 16.2 35


So I take it these digital stations broadcast both HD and non-HD signals, and, therefore, can be picked up with just the ATSC tuner? Therefore, at least for these stations, no NTSC Tuner needed? And appears that all I will need is a decent indoor UHF antenna (towers same orientation and from 14-16 miles from residence)? Thanks.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by igreg_
> *Here's my local stations based on http://www.antennaweb.org :
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf KXTV-DT 10.1 ABC Sacramento CA 185° 16.6 61
> 
> * yellow - uhf KTXL-DT 40.1 FOX Sacramento CA 189° 14.7 55
> 
> * yellow - uhf KVIE-DT 6.1 PBS Sacramento CA 189° 14.7 53
> 
> * yellow - uhf KSPX-DT 48 PAX SACRAMENTO CA FCC Ext 190° 15.1 48
> 
> * yellow - uhf KQCA-DT 58.1 WB STOCKTON CA 181° 14.4 46
> 
> * yellow - uhf KOVR-DT 13.1 CBS Stockton CA 185° 16.6 25
> 
> * yellow - uhf KMAX-DT 31.1 UPN SACRAMENTO CA 186° 14.8 21
> 
> * yellow - uhf KCRA-DT 3.1 NBC Sacramento CA 186° 16.2 35
> 
> 
> So I take it these digital stations broadcast both HD and non-HD signals, and, therefore, can be picked up with just the ATSC tuner? Therefore, at least for these stations, no NTSC Tuner needed? And appears that all I will need is a decent indoor UHF antenna (towers same orientation and from 14-16 miles from residence)? Thanks.*



That's correct; they're ATSC stations. No NTSC tuner needed. And they're all currently UHF.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Southern Soul_
> *
> 
> * yellow - uhf WNPT-DT 46.1 PBS NASHVILLE TN Testing 101° 21.9 46
> 
> * yellow - uhf WNPX-DT 28.1 PAX Cookeville TN 66° 26.2 36
> 
> * violet - uhf WUXP-DT 30.1 UPN NASHVILLE TN 66° 26.2 21
> 
> 
> In what logical order should I start changing or upgrading to pull in these three channels? My UHF stations are 5-10 miles over the antenna's rated range, so should I start with a different antenna? Upgrade the coax and spliiter? Buy a preamp? Am I trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip by mounting in the attic? Can you use the analog station to judge the strength of the digital signal?*



Well, it appears that the directional antennas are biased against you. WNPT shouldn't give you trouble. WNPX has a lot of power, so even a large directional bias against you shouldn't be a big deal. WUXP is running at modified-hamster-wheel power and is only sending about 2/10 of that in your direction, so you're going to need some luck to make things work there.


You will get the best bang for the buck by moving the antenna outdoors. This will gain you a minimum of 3db of gain, and probably more. It will also help to eliminate some multipath that your attic is creating.


That said, I know a lot of people run into this same problem of wanting perfect reception without anybody knowing they're getting it. And the UHF section of your antenna is little more than a joke. If you want, you can keep it for VHF signals and get a CM4228 or CM3021 (8-bay or 4-bay bowtie designs, respectively) and a CM#0549 to connect the two antennas together into one downlead. (Note: you cannot use a simple splitter, you must use something to filter out unwanted signals.) The 3021 is 2' wide by 4' tall and the 4228 is 4'x4' square. Both should offer significant improvements of your UHF reception, even in your attic. No guarantees that it will be enough, but it does dramatically improve your odds.


----------



## PGHammer




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *More than likely, you're listing the analog channel numbers. I don't know of a single market with that many VHF digital signals.
> 
> 
> Check out the list at http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp for real channel numbers.*



The ten largest OTA markets (as defined by both the FCC and NAB) tend to have their network O&Os and affils (I'm talking the Big Four, including FOX).


Washington, DC is a case in point (market #8).


You have WRC-DT (NBC O&O), WTTG-DT (FOX O&O), WJLA-DT (Albritton Communications-owned ABC affil) and WUSA-DT (Gannett-owned CBS affil) with channel numbers 4.1, 5.1, 7.1/7.2 and 9.1/9.2, respectively. 4.1 and 8.1 are 1080i, 5.1 and 7.1 are 720p, and 7.2 and 9.2 are (of course) 480i.


4.1 (WRC-DT) is particularly beastly to pick up (I am less than 20 miles from all the above stations, but I am on the *wrong* side of the house, and the signal path is literally blocked by the house itself) with my ATI-contractor-supplied Silver Sensor clone (no signal from any station even gets to 50 percent, even with an indoor distribution amp midway through the signal path, with the antenna itself mounted between the glass and the screen of the basement window; my PC is on a desk in front of the window).


I suspect it is the location that has me hamstrung, not the antenna itself.


An outdoor antenna is out (I am currently the only person watching OTA for any reason; the rest of the house, including my own basement TV, has cable), but will the location continue to give me grief?


----------



## Southern Soul




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *...And the UHF section of your antenna is little more than a joke.*



I think I'll start there. How do I decide between the 4228 and 3021? They are both very affordable. I see that the 4228 offers 1.2db's of additional gain. Would I then lose some multi-directional pickup? The tower locations are at a 35 degree spread.


If that doesn't work, I'll mount the combo outside. It's not the thought of a visible antenna, it's the grounding. I would not feel comfortable guying and grounding the antenna myslef. I would want a professional do it, and I have no clue what that would cost.


You're right about WUXP's strength. I looked it up on 2150 yesterday. I'll settle for a consistent Pax and PBS right now, and watch the Simpsons in ghosty analog.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Washington, DC is a case in point (market #8).



All of the digitals in the Washington, D.C. area are UHF. None are VHF.

Your digital receiver simply remaps from the actual channel to display whatever the station wants you to see (in this case the original VHF channel number). The thinking is that people will continue to identify with the old channel. Go to http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/...tion.asp?m=was 

for info on your area.


At 20 miles away, an outdoor 4221 from Channelmaster or an Antennasdirect DB4 would do wonders for you I'd bet. If you can't go outdoors, do a 4228 or DB8 in your attic. The DB4 might work in the attic.


----------



## PGHammer




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *All of the digitals in the Washington, D.C. area are UHF. None are VHF.
> 
> Your digital receiver simply remaps from the actual channel to display whatever the station wants you to see (in this case the original VHF channel number). The thinking is that people will continue to identify with the old channel. Go to http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/...tion.asp?m=was
> 
> for info on your area.
> 
> 
> At 20 miles away, an outdoor 4221 from Channelmaster or an Antennasdirect DB4 would do wonders for you I'd bet. If you can't go outdoors, do a 4228 or DB8 in your attic. The DB4 might work in the attic.*



Channel numbers are like *brand names* when it comes to television, even more than call signage (our local CBS affil has had three owners since I've been alive, and changed call letters under each, yet they kept the same channel number). And even DC has nothing on *Baltimore*, where the three major stations have changed network affiliations at least twice each (and one changed three times!).


Even though *all* digital TV stations live in the lower to middle section of the UHF-TV broadcast spectrum (between 14 and 50) their channel remaps reflect the *brand name* of the old VHF channel assignments (the already-UHF stations that also broadcast HD are just as *brand-conscious*, so it isn't just a network thing).


There *is* one oddity I've noticed with one particular DTV station here: WRC-DT.. The *PSIP* (information bug) that indicates station ID actually sends "CH 1" as opposed to WRC-DT (or even WRC-HD).


While WRC-DT *is* the oldest of the nation's OTA HD stations (as well as the original technology demonstrator of the NAB), CH 1 is a known *no-no* according to all FCC rules regarding TV station IDs, and even worse, this is not just a commercial DT station, it's a *network O&O* on top of that.


Why hasn't anyone from the FCC called them on this goof?


I am quite sure that WRC-DT's resident engineer (who also functions as senior engineer for DT for the NBC Owned Stations Group) is not deliberately violating FCC regulations....


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by PGHammer_
> *
> 
> You have WRC-DT (NBC O&O), WTTG-DT (FOX O&O), WJLA-DT (Albritton Communications-owned ABC affil) and WUSA-DT (Gannett-owned CBS affil) with channel numbers 4.1, 5.1, 7.1/7.2 and 9.1/9.2, respectively. 4.1 and 8.1 are 1080i, 5.1 and 7.1 are 720p, and 7.2 and 9.2 are (of course) 480i.
> 
> 
> I suspect it is the location that has me hamstrung, not the antenna itself.
> 
> 
> An outdoor antenna is out (I am currently the only person watching OTA for any reason; the rest of the house, including my own basement TV, has cable), but will the location continue to give me grief?*



All of those channel numbers you listed above are "virtual", not actual channels. WRC, for instance, is broadcasting digitally on channel 48, not 4. And the channel numbers have nothing to do with being O&O.


Is there any way to use a window higher up in your house? UHF signals are particularly weak at ground level. The higher you can get that antenna, even indoors, the better.


If you can't get the antenna outside, that, more than your location, is what is causing you problems.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Southern Soul_
> *I think I'll start there. How do I decide between the 4228 and 3021? They are both very affordable. I see that the 4228 offers 1.2db's of additional gain. Would I then lose some multi-directional pickup? The tower locations are at a 35 degree spread.
> 
> 
> If that doesn't work, I'll mount the combo outside. It's not the thought of a visible antenna, it's the grounding. I would not feel comfortable guying and grounding the antenna myslef. I would want a professional do it, and I have no clue what that would cost.
> 
> 
> You're right about WUXP's strength. I looked it up on 2150 yesterday. I'll settle for a consistent Pax and PBS right now, and watch the Simpsons in ghosty analog.*



The 3021 is a better choice to cover a 35 degree spread. It is less directional, but this also means it is more likely to pick up multipath. (The fact that WUXP is ghosty indicates that signal strength is not your reception problem so much as multipath.)


You shouldn't need to guy the 3021, unless you're attaching it to a brick chimney. I'm the anti-handiman and I guyed my antenna - it's not that hard. Three hooks in the roof (seal with silicone), 3 lengths of steel cable from Home Depot, a few other random parts to secure the cable to the rotor box and the hooks, and I was set.


Grounding isn't as hard as these other guys make it sound. Get a grounding block from Radio Shack and put it just outside where the coax goes into your house. Then buy a length of grounding wire from Radio Shack. Connect the outer shell of the coax at the antenna to the mast. Connect the grounding block to the house ground. Done.


----------



## PGHammer




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *The 3021 is a better choice to cover a 35 degree spread. It is less directional, but this also means it is more likely to pick up multipath. (The fact that WUXP is ghosty indicates that signal strength is not your reception problem so much as multipath.)
> 
> 
> You shouldn't need to guy the 3021, unless you're attaching it to a brick chimney. I'm the anti-handiman and I guyed my antenna - it's not that hard. Three hooks in the roof (seal with silicone), 3 lengths of steel cable from Home Depot, a few other random parts to secure the cable to the rotor box and the hooks, and I was set.
> 
> 
> Grounding isn't as hard as these other guys make it sound. Get a grounding block from Radio Shack and put it just outside where the coax goes into your house. Then buy a length of grounding wire from Radio Shack. Connect the outer shell of the coax at the antenna to the mast. Connect the grounding block to the house ground. Done.*



Alternate #1 (for for mounting smaller antennas outdoors, especially mounts on the side of a house)


Take your RS grounding block and connect it directly to the antenna's coax-out (via a short length of RG-6) and cap off any unused connections (you can buy terminator caps at RadioShack also). Run the grounding wire from the block to the hose bib (if you have an automatic sprinkler system, run the wire down to the nearest copper piping).


The hose bib usually connects to the cold water piping, which is usually *one* of the connections to the house ground (if you have a newer two-story house, there may be other connections to ground). Connection to the sprinkler system piping is even better, as that is *buried piping* (and thus eliminates any possibility of backwash into the house ground because there is no connection), and thus naturally grounded.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by PGHammer_
> *Connection to the sprinkler system piping is even better, as that is *buried piping* (and thus eliminates any possibility of backwash into the house ground because there is no connection), and thus naturally grounded.*



I'm not an electrician, but this sounds like the perfect way to create a ground loop. Not having all of your grounds connected to a common ground would also lead to potential electrical differences which could fry sensitive electronics equipment.


----------



## fmattis

Just picked up an ATi HDTV Wonder. The card came with a cheap Silver Sensor clone. Hooked everything up with the antenna on my computer desk and was able to receive most Philly stations (about 13 miles away) depending on what the weather was like, the angle of the antenna, where my wife and dogs were sitting at the time. Anyway, I was completely hooked after watching my first MNF HD broadcast. Incredible, but I had to improve the sketchy reception. First I tried an amplified indoor antenna. That was actually worse than the one that had come with the HDTV Wonder. Then I decided to go to the roof. I picked up a ChannelMaster StealthTenna from the local Lowes and mounted it as close to the peak of the roof as I could. I hooked it up to my PC with 50 ft. of cheap RG6 cable and voila... every station is now coming in rock solid. I even pulled some smaller stations that I was not expecting.


I had planned to run audio and video cable from my PC to my Sony KV-34HS510 (about 10 ft. away) but now I'm leaning towards splitting the antenna feed and buying a HDTV receiver.


Anyways, I have a couple of questions...


1. Can someone suggest a low priced HDTV receiver? I don't need a lot of bells and whistles, just something that tunes well and will give me a decent picture.


2. I haven't completed the antenna installation yet. What is the proper way to ground my antenna? Do I just have to ground the coax or should I also run a ground wire from the mast of the antenna into the ground?

'

Thanks,

Frank.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by fmattis_
> *1. Can someone suggest a low priced HDTV receiver? I don't need a lot of bells and whistles, just something that tunes well and will give me a decent picture.
> 
> 
> 2. I haven't completed the antenna installation yet. What is the proper way to ground my antenna? Do I just have to ground the coax or should I also run a ground wire from the mast of the antenna into the ground?
> *



1. Go to the HDTV Hardware forum. Lots of posts about different STBs. Read the reviews. Educate yourself. Pick the one that seems to offer you the best bang for the buck. Personally, I'd try to find a used Samsung SIRT-151 on eBay. Should run you about $100.


2. Both the mast and the coax need to be grounded. The active element on the antenna is electrically isolated from the rest of the antenna and the mast, and that is the only thing that gets grounded by grounding the coax. The easiest way to ground the mast is to attach a short wire from the mast to the outer shell of the coax connector.


----------



## spiff72

Well, I am still struggling with the reception of WXMI at my location - near Kirk Park on Lakeshore Drive in West Olive.


I have been playing around with the direction of the antenna (with a rotor), and I find that I get the best analog reception with it pointed SSE. I get almost no digital signal (as measured with the signal strength meter on my Dish 811 receiver - I also have a tuner in my TV, but it has no signal strength meter). If I try to peak the digital signal according to the Dish Reciever, I get the strongest signal by pointing almost due EAST. Looking at the analog reception in this position it is very ghosty, with the color fading in and out. The digital picture breaks up frequently. I am just not sure what to do now. It is frustrating, as I can get the other stations (even WWMT) by orienting the antenna appropriately. WXMI is just a toughie for me.


I do have a lot of trees around me (vacant lot to my south, and the antenna is on the southwest side of the house - about 25 ft from the ground - 8 ft from the roof height). I suspect that I am having reflected signal problems - perhaps I might get better signal when the leaves drop...


Anyone have any suggestions?


Updated...


Does anyone out there know if it is possible to get a DB4 antenna from antennasdirect.com and mount it on the same mast as my other antenna, and combine the signal? I have a channel master preamp that I think I can still return (that has just one input) and pick up a preamp that has both VHF and UHF inputs. Or possible a combiner that feed into the current amp?


I just dont know how this would work since the current antenna has the yagi for UHF on the front. I don't know if there is a way to disconnect this part of the upper antenna...


Again, any ideas?


Thanks,

Jeff


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by spiff72_
> *
> 
> Does anyone out there know if it is possible to get a DB4 antenna from antennasdirect.com and mount it on the same mast as my other antenna, and combine the signal? I have a channel master preamp that I think I can still return (that has just one input) and pick up a preamp that has both VHF and UHF inputs. Or possible a combiner that feed into the current amp?
> *



Yes. Use a Channel Master #0549 to connect two antennas together - it will filter the UHF frequencies off the VHF antenna and the VHF ones off the UHF antenna. Of course, you could save $10 and get a 7777 preamp with two inputs, which effectively does the same thing.


I think a bowtie is a great choice for a low channel number like 19.


----------



## spiff72




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *Yes. Use a Channel Master #0549 to connect two antennas together - it will filter the UHF frequencies off the VHF antenna and the VHF ones off the UHF antenna. Of course, you could save $10 and get a 7777 preamp with two inputs, which effectively does the same thing.
> 
> 
> I think a bowtie is a great choice for a low channel number like 19.*



Is there a minimum distance that should be maintained between the VHF and bowtie antennas? I am afraid that I won't have room on the mast unless I can mount it on the lower part of the mast (below the rotor). Are these non-directional enough that I might have success pointing it at the midpoint of the angle between the towers (about a 90 degree angle separates them).


Thanks again,

Jeff


----------



## cpcat

60 inches between is the general recc. but you might get away with less after experimenting. The safe bet is 60 inches. You'll definitely have to mount one below the rotor unless you have a heavy duty ham rotor or a thrust bearing. The lever arm will be too long for the CM 9521 rotor w/o the bearing.


90 degrees is pretty wide. I doubt it will work unless one of the stations is very strong and you can hedge towards the other one. If your vhf stations are in one spot maybe you could put the DB4 on the rotor and move the vhf below and leave it fixed.


----------



## Alan Gordon




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *The lever arm will be too long for the CM 9252 rotor w/o the bearing.
> *




Just curious, but what would the maximum size lever arm be for a 9521A?!



~Alan


----------



## cpcat

I'm not sure if there's a recc. from CM. I've heard 18 inches from others on this forum. In practice I'd just keep it as short as possible. You certainly need a short one on say a 4228 versus a small yagi which could probably go longer.


I guess I messed up the model #, 9521 is it? I'll edit my post above.


----------



## Alan Gordon




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *I'm not sure if there's a recc. from CM. I've heard 18 inches from others on this forum. In practice I'd just keep it as short as possible. You certainly need a short one on say a 4228 versus a small yagi which could probably go longer.
> 
> 
> I guess I messed up the model #, 9521 is it? I'll edit my post above.*



Actually, I messed it up as Model #9521 is actually a package deal containing the rotor and the remote control unit. I believe the rotor is actually #9523(???).


As far as what you said, I ordered a #9521(A), a 4228 and a 7777 preamp. They haven't shipped it out yet, and I couldn't put it up right now anyway as Francis is giving my area some STRONG winds and Ivan looks to be following in the same path as Francis. However, I might go ahead and run the cables later this week, and I would be interested in knowing how much cable I'm going to need.


~Alan


----------



## CPanther95




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Southern Soul_
> *I think I'll start there. How do I decide between the 4228 and 3021? They are both very affordable. I see that the 4228 offers 1.2db's of additional gain. Would I then lose some multi-directional pickup? The tower locations are at a 35 degree spread.
> 
> 
> If that doesn't work, I'll mount the combo outside. It's not the thought of a visible antenna, it's the grounding. I would not feel comfortable guying and grounding the antenna myslef. I would want a professional do it, and I have no clue what that would cost.
> 
> 
> You're right about WUXP's strength. I looked it up on 2150 yesterday. I'll settle for a consistent Pax and PBS right now, and watch the Simpsons in ghosty analog.*



I would look at the CM 4221 instead of the 4228. The 4221 is less directional and will easily reach your locals. I have a 90 degree spread and can pick up all channels (about 20 miles away) without adjusting the rotor. I can also pick up a secondary market about 70 miles away.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by CPanther95_
> *I would look at the CM 4221 instead of the 4228. The 4221 is less directional and will easily reach your locals. I have a 90 degree spread and can pick up all channels (about 20 miles away) without adjusting the rotor. I can also pick up a secondary market about 70 miles away.*



Since the 4228 is really just two 4221's wired together and mounted side by side, one could just start with a 4228 and use half the antenna as a 4221 if necessary. I have no trouble picking up full power NYC stations at 32 miles when aimed 120 degrees away towards Philadelphia at about 60 miles, for instance, using my 4228. The 4228 is more directional than the 4221, but there's still a considerable side lobe (and sufficient reception from the rear if no interference from the front on the same frequencies) to the pattern.


----------



## Alan Gordon




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by CPanther95_
> *I would look at the CM 4221 instead of the 4228. The 4221 is less directional and will easily reach your locals. I have a 90 degree spread and can pick up all channels (about 20 miles away) without adjusting the rotor. I can also pick up a secondary market about 70 miles away.*




Well, I actually already ordered all my equipment and some of it should be in tomorrow. One of my local stations recently went digital in a different direction than my other two and in case I were to ever lose my CBS and ABC E&W feeds on DirecTV, I would need a rotor if I wanted to even think about picking them up. With the exception of Francine's influence yesterday, we really don't have a whole lot of wind, and I only intend on putting the antenna up around 10 feet off the ground (the top of the antenna might actually reach 12 feet) and Channel Master says this antenna has a "thrust bearing" in it like cpcat mentioned, so hopefully I can make it work, I was just curious as to how much it could handle.


~Alan


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Channel Master says this antenna has a "thrust bearing" in it like cpcat mentioned, so hopefully I can make it work, I was just curious as



The thrust bearing I'm referring to is a separate item that CM used to sell. They aren't manufactured anymore but they're still around if you look. A picture of one in use is at http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...nas/index.html 

He's using one with his Triax Band A stack. It is basically a guy ring with a bearing inside that allows for rotation.


I think you'll be O.K. with the 4228 on the rotor w/o the bearing as long as you keep the lever arm as short as possible. I used a 4228 on my 9521 rotor for several mos w/o a problem.


----------



## vurbano




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *The thrust bearing I'm referring to is a separate item that CM used to sell. They aren't manufactured anymore but they're still around if you look. A picture of one in use is at http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...nas/index.html
> 
> He's using one with his Triax Band A stack. It is basically a guy ring with a bearing inside that allows for rotation.
> 
> 
> I think you'll be O.K. with the 4228 on the rotor w/o the bearing as long as you keep the lever arm as short as possible. I used a 4228 on my 9521 rotor for several mos w/o a problem.*



Ive been looking for a month or two for a bracket that would allow vertical tilt for my pole mounted Yagi. But all I have found is what I think is a roof base mount that allows for this adjustment. Is this thrust bearing the ticket? You said they are not manufactured anymore. How is anyone suppose to tilt their antenna without it if its pole mounted outside? Any idea where I can get such a bracket or bearing????


PS I know it could be done with the standard sat pole that allows for vertical tilt, but that would be a lot of extra weight and look silly attached to an existing pole. The pole also has a rotor. I found a bracket at sharper concepts online but I would end up with 3 poles, the pole the rotor is mounted on, a pole leaving the rotor for the bracket to attach too, then another pole for the bracket to antenna connection.


----------



## Alan Gordon




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *I think you'll be O.K. with the 4228 on the rotor w/o the bearing as long as you keep the lever arm as short as possible. I used a 4228 on my 9521 rotor for several mos w/o a problem.*



I looked up what you said, and I might be able to rig up something similar to the TB-105 Support Bearing as pictured on this page, but without any guy wires attached. Would that give me quite a bit of added support?!



~Alan


----------



## cpcat

 http://www.atechfabrication.com/reception_solutions.htm 





> Quote:
> Ive been looking for a month or two for a bracket that would allow vertical tilt for my pole mounted Yagi



Try the link above. He sells tilting brackets as well as a remote tilter if you want to go really fancy.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> I looked up what you said, and I might be able to rig up something similar to the TB-105 Support Bearing as pictured on this page, but without any guy wires attached. Would that give me quite a bit of added support?!



Wow, I've not seen that before. That would certainly work. That would even allow a vertical stack above the rotor. As it says, you'll have to "break off" the tab on the rotor which may not be easy but it should work. Hmmm...


----------



## spiff72

Hey all,


I was thinking about getting a DB4 and adding it to my current VHF antenna mast, but I just stumbled across a CM 4221A (or CM3021) for about 1/3 the price. Are the reception qualities of these basically the same? Or is one better than the other? I was going to order a new amp (CM7777) and distribution amp (for my crappy cable) from solid signal, and I was thinking I would be better off just getting the CM antenna from them at the same time...


Any thoughts on this?


Thanks,

Jeff


----------



## cpcat

I've not heard of anyone who's done a direct comparison but most of what I've heard here would indicate the DB4 is better but only by a small margin.

Whether that's worth it or not will have to be up to you. Both are similar designs (4-bay bowties) and are rated for similar distances. You could email antennasdirect and ask for gain figures to compare (I'm pretty sure the 4221/3021 figures are available through a link at Starkelectronics.com)

Gain figures are subject to some exaggeration though, so even that won't be a guarantee.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by spiff72_
> *I was thinking about getting a DB4 and adding it to my current VHF antenna mast, but I just stumbled across a CM 4221A (or CM3021) for about 1/3 the price. Are the reception qualities of these basically the same? Or is one better than the other? I was going to order a new amp (CM7777) and distribution amp (for my crappy cable) from solid signal, and I was thinking I would be better off just getting the CM antenna from them at the same time...
> *



I guess the answer is: it depends. Do you want the absolute best reception given a certain sized antenna? Get the DB4. Want to get pretty good reception given a certain sized antenna? Get the 3021. The difference is probably no more than 3db, which won't make or break you in a strong signal environment. If you're pushing the limits of reception, though, the DB4 should win handily.


----------



## PhotoKevin

Does anyone have any experience with Omnis? I was looking at the CM 3000. I live only 3.8 miles from the most distant transmitter according to antennaweb. We only have two digital stations here in the great white north (it is snowing today) but more will be on line soon.


I was wanting to get the thing up before winter really sets in and it becomes difficult to drive grounding stakes.


My theater is downstairs. I had analog problems in the past using set top antennas but have pretty much a 360 degree "look" about 10' above my house.


Also, the transmitters are at all points of the compass.


Thanks,


Kevin


----------



## cpcat

Quote:

"Does anyone have any experience with Omnis? I was looking at the CM 3000. I live only 3.8 miles from the most distant transmitter according to antennaweb. We only have two digital stations here in the great white north (it is snowing today) but more will be on line soon."





Omnis just don't work very well in general. You'd be much better off with a relatively small semi-directional like the Antennasdirect DB4 (better) or CM 4221 (cheaper) on a rotor.


----------



## markdwest

I have a fancy-shmancy roof antenna that can pull in all my Detroit locals except the ABC affiliate. (I'm running it through my Dish 811, which gets the dreaded "49% error" on ABC.) If I connect plain-old rabbit ears instead of the roof antenna, I can get ABC. Does this mean that I'd be able to pull in ABC through the roof antenna if I had an attenuator?


----------



## mikeagregor

Today I connected my DirecTv receiver to a rooftop antenna that has been there for many years. I have no idea what kind it is but it looks pretty old and is missing a couple of crossbars. It was in use with 1 set upstairs from me for analog reception. It was receiving all OTA stations in the NYC area clearly. I found a connection between 2 coaxial cables running into the house. I put a 2 to 1 splitter and ran a coax into my apartment and to my receiver (Zenith HD SAT520). I now receive Digital HD broadcast of all NYC local stations except CBS (which DirecTv broadcasts) and PBS (which I am not sure is even available yet). I just wanted to share this with everyone in case there is anyone out there that also has an old antenna on the roof. It just might be possible that this will suffice for you to bring in the HD signal you need.


----------



## HobeSoundDarryl

Alan/Ken H/Cpanther, whichever one+ of you went to the trouble to rename all of the local threads with the simplified city name...


THANK YOU VERY MUCH!


It is so much better this way. I won't missing seeing the adjectives "official", "quasi", "not so official", etc. at all. This area is much better with the simplified thread names. Way to go!!!


----------



## Sevenfeet




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by CPanther95_
> *I would look at the CM 4221 instead of the 4228. The 4221 is less directional and will easily reach your locals. I have a 90 degree spread and can pick up all channels (about 20 miles away) without adjusting the rotor. I can also pick up a secondary market about 70 miles away.*



Here's my situation in Nashville's Bellevue community. I've edited the list to remove some stations outside of Nashville I don't care about. I told Antennaweb to consider my surrounding hills, trees (bad) and my multistory house (good).


* red - vhf WSMV-DT 4.1 NBC Nashville TN 32° 6.2 10

* red - uhf WNPT-DT 46.1 PBS NASHVILLE TN Testing 104° 5.2 46

* red - uhf WKRN-DT 2.1 ABC Nashville TN 104° 5.2 27

* violet - uhf WNPX-DT 28.1 PAX Cookeville TN 29° 15.5 36


Note that Antennaweb.org is not listing DTV stations for my address for CBS, FOX, WB and UPN. They used to but not since the Jan 1st web site revamp. I think they are trying to tell me that my house is located in the frequency dead zone of Bellevue (and I would agree!). So, I've extrapolated the missing DTV stations in the following list:


* violet - uhf WZTV-DT 17.1 FOX NASHVILLE TN 32° 6.2 15

* violet - uhf WUXP-DT 30.1 UPN NASHVILLE TN 29° 15.6 21

* violet - uhf WTVF-DT 5.1 CBS NASHVILLE TN 30° 16.0 56

* violet - uhf WNAB-DT 58.1 WB NASHVILLE TN 29° 15.5 23


It looks like the CM4221 may be more appropiate for me instead of the 4228 by CPanther95's logic. I have a 75 degree spread, with a maximum distance of about 16 miles from the furthermost towers in Nashville that I need (CBS). ABC and PBS are easy (a Zenith Silver Sensor can lock the ABC signal) since they are on my side of town and I can see their tower from the house, but they are on that 75 degree axis away from the other stations. All other stations I've looking for (NBC, CBS, FOX, WB, UPN) and on a narrow 4 degree wide vector. WB and UPN are broadcasting by "hamster" power, so I don't really expect to get them right now under any circumstances. FOX is on low power, but hopefully not for too much longer.


I'm also surrounded by some short hills in the very direction I need for the long signals (but not ABC/PBS) so I'm not sure an attic solution is going to work, although I may try it first. I'm pretty sure an amp will be needed.


Any observations or suggestions from the experts out there? Am I on the right track with my thinking? And finally, WSMV-DT (NBC) is a rare VHF HD station. Will the 4221 alone be enough at channel 10, or will I need something additional? And finally, who still installs antennas in the Nashville area?


----------



## AcuraCL




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by HobeSoundDarryl_
> *Alan/Ken H/Cpanther, whichever one+ of you went to the trouble to rename all of the local threads with the simplified city name...
> 
> 
> THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
> 
> 
> It is so much better this way. I won't missing seeing the adjectives "official", "quasi", "not so official", etc. at all. This area is much better with the simplified thread names. Way to go!!!*



Hear hear.


Didn't even notice until I read this post.


Excellent idea, cleaning up those names!!!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Sevenfeet_
> *Here's my situation in Nashville's Bellevue community...*



I'd give the 4221 a try. I'd pass on the preamplifier. You're probably too close for it to help. Of course, you could order one and return it if it doesn't work for you.


Most UHF antennas have some VHF performance, though it's usually to the *left* of the aiming area by about 30-45 degrees. Keep that in mind.


Personally, I'd get the 4228 and a rotor, since that gives you the greatest chance of success.


I'd also avoid the attic unless you absolutely must.


----------



## ARFF

On a general note, is higher always better for antenna mounting? Im talking about UHF signals mainly. Can an antenna just stop functioning like it used to? I know that sounds odd but i am very recently unable to tune in channels I was able to before. I have checked every other possible connection problem and aiming problems. I have just ordered a 4221 so many this wont be an issue when that is installed. Right now I have a regular vhf/uhf/fm antenna. I dont recall which model channel master it is though. Also, what would be considered a safe height without using guy wires??


----------



## PhilJSmith67

An antenna is basically just a uniquely-shaped hunk of metal and plastic. Any antenna that just "stops functioning" indicates a hardware failure, either with the antenna itself, or the feedline. Most of the time if the antenna is under 10 years old, it's the feedline. If the antenna is old enough, the element connections will literally corrode and become insulators, which calls for an antenna replacement.


First, visually inspect the antenna for anything being broken. If the antenna has connecting rods that link the signal from the elements to the output, make sure they're tightly connected. An ohmmeter would be a great tester, but usually a visual check will suffice. If the antenna has a "connector box" make sure it's dry inside and doesn't exhibit signs of lightning damage.


If you see nothing wrong from an integrity perspective, take a portable or handheld receiver (with an antenna input) up on the roof, connect it directly to the antenna, and check the analog signals. If they're good, then your cable and/or connectors are suspect.


As for your height question, you're right on... Higher is *usually* better for UHF. However, UHF tends to have "hotspots" too, even well about a roof line. Here is where probing around with the antenna and a portable TV will help. Some professional antenna installers perform this step.


----------



## Solderbot

I am in Woodstock, GA 30188.

I am 21-25 miles from all of the Atlanta towers, which are all in the same direction.


I'm looking for an antenna to mount in the attic. Any fellow Woodstockians on here getting OTA? FWIW, I am in the monstrous new subdivision known as the Woodlands.


----------



## rickypicky

I am planning on adding a second HDTV to my setup. I currently have a Channel Master 3021 antenna in m attic. The RG-6 coming out of it goes into the "antenna" input of a diplexer. The "satellite" input to the diplexer comes from one of the outputs of my 5x8 cascading multi-switch. The output of the diplexer goes into an RG-6 cable running down to my Sony HD STB, where I have another diplexer to split out the satellite/antenna to connect to the STB.


Now, I would like to add another HD TV to the setup. From what I understand, there are at least two ways to do this:


1. Remove the diplexer near the multi-switch and run the cable from the antenna directly into the antenna input of the multiswitch. Connect the cable going down to my first STB directly to one of the outputs of the multi-switch. Then, the antenna signal will be available to all the STBs connected to the multi-switch. This is certainly the easiest thing to do, but I am concerned about signal degradation from splitting the antenna signal over eight different outputs.


2. Connect the cable from the antenna to a splitter. Connect one of the outputs of the splitter to the existing diplexer. Connect the other output of the splitter to another diplexer and copy the way I have the first diplexer connected... Have another diplexer at the second STB to split back out the sat/ota signals going into the STB. The disadvantage it is a little more work, and it might not work (is this true?). The advantage, if it works, is the ota signal will only be split into two, not into up to eight.


Thoughts?


----------



## vurbano




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by rickypicky_
> *I am planning on adding a second HDTV to my setup. I currently have a Channel Master 3021 antenna in m attic. The RG-6 coming out of it goes into the "antenna" input of a diplexer. The "satellite" input to the diplexer comes from one of the outputs of my 5x8 cascading multi-switch. The output of my diplexer goes into an RG-6 cable runing down to my Sony HD STB, where I have another diplexer to split out the satellite/antenna to connect to the STB.
> 
> 
> Now, I would like to add another HD TV to the setup. From what I understand, there are at least two ways to do this:
> 
> 
> 1. Remove the diplexer near the multi-switch and run the cable from the antenna directly into the antenna input of the multiswitch. Connect the cable going down to my first STB directly to one of the outputs of the multi-swith. Then, the antenna signal will be available to all the STBs connected to the multi-switch. This is certainly the easiest thing to do, but I am concerned about signal degradation from splitting the antenna signal over eight different outputs.
> 
> 
> 2. Connect the cable from the antenna to a splitter. Connect one of the outputs of the splitter to the existing diplexer. Connect the other output of the splitter to another diplexer and copy the way I have the first diplexer connected... Have another diplexer at the second STB to split back out the sat/ota signals going into the STB. The disadvantage it is a little more work, and it might not work (is this true?). The advantage, if it works, is the ota signal will only be split into two, not into up to eight.
> 
> 
> Thoughts?*



I did #2 works fine.


----------



## lphiex13

If this has been answered, I wouldn't mind a link to the previous post










My situation, I'm in the west loop in Chicago, about 1.1 miles from the broadcast towers. However, i'm in a multiunit building (no roof rights, etc) facing south, but the towers are North East from me.


I originally purchased a terk tv55 from circuit city, before returning it for a zenith silver sensor. I can partially get a signal indoors, but its not consistent enough to maintain a good picture (it waivers from 75 to 0, constantly).


I'm also the south most unit in a complex of buildings, so if I wanted to have and indoor antenna and point it at the towers, I'm technically pointing it through about 3 buildings.


I have a DTV dish, and a samsung HD receiver.


Is an indoor antenna a viable option for me? if so, which? if not, whats a good outdoor antenna? or am I just out of luck?


thanks.


----------



## h2ouup2

I guess I am lucky. I have two antennas one in the attic an Channel Master, the other inside a Trek HDTVi. I get All the HDTV channels in OKC except one. As a matter of fact the indoor antenna is actually better.


Luckly most of the towers are close together.


----------



## NOGREER

I have a UHF antenna mounted on my chimney with a Channel Master preamp. runs into samsung box in family room. great OTA reception. purchased HDTV and samsung box for another room and ran RG6 cable up to antenna and put a splitter after the preamp. now no signal for either box. had about 70 % signal strength on original box. disconected splitter and signal back to normal on original box. am I just not receiving a strong enough signal to split or is there a better splitter and or another solution ?


----------



## michaelk

sounds like the splitter is just a bad seed or more likely I would guess you killed power to the preamp.


does the amp get power from the RG6 that you split? If so the splitter probably isnt passing through the voltage the preamp needs to run. You need to put the power injector on the pre-amp side of the splitter or find a splitter that passes the current (not sure if they have one- someone with more knowledge feel free to jump in...)


if the preamp gets its power another way then something sure is wrong with the splitter, you may see some slight drop but it shouldn't make %70 go to nothing.


----------



## Rack

 http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D1237 

You want a splitter that has DC pass-through, like this one (this is a VHF/UHF splitter, I just posted it to show the DC pass markings). Your splitter might already have it, and you might just have to switch the coax connections from the 2 TVs.


----------



## NOGREER

thanks for the info. I looked at the picture of the Radio Shack splitter and realized that instead of saying DC pass, the one I have says power pass ( has to be same thing) I did not know what this meant (duh) when I installed and I bet that when I switch the cables so the one from the pre-amp power supply goes into the side marked power pass that it will work. thanks for the info and I will let you know the results


----------



## NOGREER

switched splitter around and good signal now in both locations. thanks for the help


----------



## intermod

Jerrold SharpShooter ???


My Son and I went to the Cleveland Hamfest (flea market for radio junk) at

the Berea Fairgrounds Sunday morning. I was looking for some air dielectric cable like 9913. No joy on the 9913 but did bump into a guy that had some

used but clean Jerrold SharpShooter UHF Yagi's. These things are 80" booms

with 14 directors, the Driven Element plus a 7 element corner reflector.


It has an unussual configuration for the feed point, 2 sets of screws for the Balun/Feedline. Cant find any docs on the web, looks like Jerrold is OOB.

Do all BalUns go from 75ohm to 300 ohm? Is it a safe assumption that the

75 ohm feedpoint is the one right on the Driven Element? The second set of screws connect to what looks to me like Delta match type thing about 4"

back from the D.E. I'm thinking that would be the 300 ohm Balanced tap.


Until I find some 9913 I plan on using RG8/U Foam from the Ant. to the set

and accept the small loss from the mis-match


Thanks


Dan


----------



## Rack




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by intermod_
> *Jerrold SharpShooter ???
> 
> 
> My Son and I went to the Cleveland Hamfest (flea market for radio junk) at
> 
> the Berea Fairgrounds Sunday morning. I was looking for some air dielectric cable like 9913. No joy on the 9913 but did bump into a guy that had some
> 
> used but clean Jerrold SharpShooter UHF Yagi's. These things are 80" booms
> 
> with 14 directors, the Driven Element plus a 7 element corner reflector.
> 
> 
> It has an unussual configuration for the feed point, 2 sets of screws for the Balun/Feedline. Cant find any docs on the web, looks like Jerrold is OOB.
> 
> Do all BalUns go from 75ohm to 300 ohm? Is it a safe assumption that the
> 
> 75 ohm feedpoint is the one right on the Driven Element? The second set of screws connect to what looks to me like Delta match type thing about 4"
> 
> back from the D.E. I'm thinking that would be the 300 ohm Balanced tap.
> 
> 
> Until I find some 9913 I plan on using RG8/U Foam from the Ant. to the set
> 
> and accept the small loss from the mis-match
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> Dan*


 http://www.wade-antenna.com/UHFantennas.htm 

I believe the Jerrold antennas are made by Delhi, so you'd have more luck with searching for Delhi. They also happen to make my favorite antenna:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/del937.htm 

Mmm... that's some good gain.


I believe your antenna is the CYD, unsure of the channel range. The gain looks fairly good for the entire line, but what channels you'll get would depend on which part of the UHF band it's cut for (I'd hope that it'd be the channel 14-70 model for full UHF band reception, but you never know).


Well, the one on the driven element is the 300ohm feedpoint. I'm going to assume that the other one is the built-in VHF coupler mentioned on the Wade Antenna webpage. A nice Channel Master outdoor balun (300 ohm to 75 ohm) and some RG-6 or RG-11 (both very nice 75 ohm cables) and you should be all set for NTSC/ATSC reception.







I don't know what in particular you have in mind for the antenna, though.


----------



## NOGREER

thought my splitter problem was solved but apparently signal strength on TV without preamp is marginal and fluctuates. can not pick up ch 4 ( NBC-Denver) on the tv without pre-amp . On the set with preamp the signal strength on this channel is 79 %.

wonder if 2 preamps can be used ? split signal right at antenna and run into 2 preamps ( Antenna post mounted) and run the coax from the two locations up to the preamps . both locations would then have their own pre-amp and a power supply by the tv.


sure will be great when new DTV antennas are up and running on Lookout Mtn outside of Denver. currently receiving signal from antennas on tall building in downtown Denver. can not receive ch 7 ( ABC) because they broadcast from a 7 story building and their signal does not make it over the ridge between Denver and my area to the Northwest (Louisville,Superior). have heard there were various zoning and building permit issues ? may be some time this Millenium ??


----------



## intermod

Yes ! That looks like it.

Thankyou. Well I live just south of Cleveland with all the stations within

a mile or two, but from 030 to 330 degrees. I can get all of them now

except WEWS 5.1 on ch. 15. There is a large building at the end of my steet

and it looks like the reflection off that is stronger than the station.

Any way its something to play with.


Thanks again


Dan



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Rack_
> * http://www.wade-antenna.com/UHFantennas.htm
> 
> I believe the Jerrold antennas are made by Delhi, so you'd have more luck with searching for Delhi. They also happen to make my favorite antenna:
> http://www.starkelectronic.com/del937.htm
> 
> Mmm... that's some good gain.
> 
> 
> I believe your antenna is the CYD, unsure of the channel range. The gain looks fairly good for the entire line, but what channels you'll get would depend on which part of the UHF band it's cut for (I'd hope that it'd be the channel 14-70 model for full UHF band reception, but you never know).
> 
> 
> Well, the one on the driven element is the 300ohm feedpoint. I'm going to assume that the other one is the built-in VHF coupler mentioned on the Wade Antenna webpage. A nice Channel Master outdoor balun (300 ohm to 75 ohm) and some RG-6 or RG-11 (both very nice 75 ohm cables) and you should be all set for NTSC/ATSC reception.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what in particular you have in mind for the antenna, though.*


----------



## Alan Gordon

After two to three weeks of waiting (don't ask) I finally received my CM4228 today, but when I got it the edges were a little... well, kind of bent in. Is this what the CM4228 looks like, or was it the shipping that caused this?!



~Alan


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by NOGREER_
> *thought my splitter problem was solved but apparently signal strength on TV without preamp is marginal and fluctuates. can not pick up ch 4 ( NBC-Denver) on the tv without pre-amp . On the set with preamp the signal strength on this channel is 79 %. wonder if 2 preamps can be used ? split signal right at antenna and run into 2 preamps ( Antenna post mounted) and run the coax from the two locations up to the preamps . both locations would then have their own pre-amp and a power supply by the tv.
> *



Better would be to move the indoor unit to just before the splitter and see if that works. Then you have a single, direct line from the outdoor unit to the indoor unit.


Mostly likely, there'll be enough gain that the signal loss from the cable lengths after the splitter will be a non-issue.


----------



## Rack




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Alan Gordon_
> *After two to three weeks of waiting (don't ask) I finally received my CM4228 today, but when I got it the edges were a little... well, kind of bent in. Is this what the CM4228 looks like, or was it the shipping that caused this?!
> 
> 
> 
> ~Alan*


 http://www.channelmaster.com/images/4228.jpg 

Looks bent in to me!


----------



## Alan Gordon




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Rack_
> * http://www.channelmaster.com/images/4228.jpg
> 
> Looks bent in to me!*



Idiot me was thinking they weren't bent in on that picture. Oh well, if I had a dollar for everytime I asked a stupid question...


I might get a chance at putting the antenna up tomorrow if the weather permits now that Jeanne is gone.


~Alan


----------



## sthayashi

Is there any good way of measuring signal strength if your STB doesn't support it? I have an LG LST-3100A, and to the best of my knowledge it won't actually show me how strong the incoming signal is.


In general most of the stations are good, but if I watch for long enough (say 10-15 minutes), I get a dropout that can't be explained. This generally happens more on cloudy/rainy days than on clear days.


I live between 2.7 - 12 miles from my local broadcasting towers and I'm using a Silver Sensor (though I have an RS-1880 around that I tested and forgot to return until it was too late). There really isn't anything blocking me and the antennas, w/ the exception of maybe a house or two down the block (their house is the same height as mine). Are there any suggestions on how to keep me dropout-free?


----------



## Muse

I recently installed the MyHD 120 HDTV card and daughterboard in my main computer. I've had two rooftop antennas for years, although one's lousy, so I'm looking to upgrade it. The other's pretty OK, I think, a Winegard Chromstar II directional ("anti-ghosting"). The MyHD card, thankfully, has two antenna inputs. I will have both antenna cables split once to send signals to an analog TV in another room.


I have three questions:


1. What kind of splitters should I be using?


2. What do I need in a balun?


3. What kind of cable do I want to buy?


Some more details:


The Winegard Chromstar II seems to work OK like it is. I'm removing the other antenna and am going to try to replace it with an antenna I found a couple weeks ago. I noticed this thing while skating to my workout, it was there on the way home and I snagged it. It looks almost exactly like the 3016 on this page at the Channel Master website. Mine's a bit longer than the 3016, so I guess it's an older model (the 3016 is 66" and mine's 70"). There was a 9 foot mast too, and I took it home as well. I had no idea why they were throwing it out, but when I put my multimeter to it, I think I found out why. There was no conductivity between a lot of the elements where I figure there should be. I'm not sure it's necessary, but I assume that an antenna to function correctly has to have continuity except where specifically prevented (i.e. by insulators). I fixed those continuity problems, which included non-continuity from the balun to the connections!


Well, I figured I was about ready to mount this thing, but I tested continuity between two mutually insulated parts of the antenna and found continuity! That would be a problem, it seems. It turns out that the balun itself was responsible for that.


So, question is: Is a balun supposed to have continuity between the leads? I have 4-5 baluns lieing around and I checked them all, and every one but one also tested as having continuity between the leads! That would seem to be wrong, but 4/5 do, so I guess maybe it's not wrong.


Well, should I get another balun? What do I need in a balun? I'm going to be using the antenna for HDTV, DTV and analog TV, and my priority is in that order.


So, again:


1. What kind of splitters should I be using? I see all kinds of splitters for sale and it's confusing. For instance, at Home Depot they had a couple:


5 MHz - 2.3 GHz (Ideal, the Mnfg.) $7 "Satellite & Digital"


40-2151 MHz Diplexer (RCA), $10


If I go to Radio Shack, what should I look for?


2. What do I need in a balun?


Again, what would I look for at Radio Shack, or can I just use the balun that was already on the Channel Master or maybe one of my others? I have 300-75 ohm, 75-75 ohm. Someone said I should get a UHF balun. He said some baluns have as much as 6 db signal loss and that I should get a good one. Would that also work for VHF stations? Now, I assume that the balun already on this antenna will work for UHF and VHF, and I gather from the design of this thing that it IS designed for both UHF and VHF. Of course, I don't know if it's working up to spec.


3. What kind of cable do I want to buy? I want to replace the old RG59 that's on the antenna I'm replacing as well as its splitter. I figure RG6, but do I want quad shield or not? Also, is copper clad steel core OK or should I hold out for solid copper core? The solid copper is harder to find, at least they don't have it at my local Home Depots.


Thanks!


----------



## arxaw

 Channel Master balun from warrenelectronics.com if you can't find them locally.

RG6 quad shield coax

Inexpensive "Hybrid Splitter/Combiner" from Rat Shack . You can also get Channel Master splitter/combiners at the above link for Warren elect.


----------



## Muse




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by arxaw_
> *Channel Master balun from warrenelectronics.com if you can't find them locally.
> 
> RG6 quad shield coax
> 
> Inexpensive "Hybrid Splitter/Combiner" from Rat Shack . You can also get Channel Master splitter/combiners at the above link for Warren elect.*



I have a few inexpensive splitters. If the results are the same I'll just use one of those.


RG6 quad shield. Does it matter if it's solid copper core or will copper clad steel be just as good for all intents and purposes?


I already have a balun that was on that antenna and I think I'll try it first. It was probably supplied by Channel Master. I found out (local indy electronics store) that baluns are expected to have continuity across the leads because that's an induction coil. The one balun I have that doesn't have continuity is probably bad.


Thanks!


----------



## arxaw

Always replace a balun that's suspect or has been outside for a few years. They're cheap. Either type of RG6 should work just fine.


----------



## tbb1226

Here's my situation:

*WKBD-DT 50.1 UPN DETROIT MI 275° 9.3 14*

WDWB-DT 21.1 WB DETROIT MI 225° 3.5 21

WXYZ-DT 41.1 ABC DETROIT MI 266° 6.2 41

WTVS-DT 56.1 PBS DETROIT MI 225° 3.5 43

WWJ-DT62.1 CBS DETROIT MI 225° 3.5 44

WDIV-DT 4.1 NBC DETROIT MI 272° 3.9 45
*WJBK-DT 2.1 FOX DETROIT MI 253° 4.7 58*


For nearly two years, I was able to receive all these with relative consistency on my DirecTV HD receiver with a CM 40" boom yagi UHF antenna on 5' mast off the chimney, aimed at around 265°. I'm in a single-story house and there's a 1-1/2 story bungalow in that direction.


In spring of this year, the UPN station at channel 14 began intermittently dropping out, and it seemed to be affected by vehicle traffic on the road immediately to the north. By summer, it was pretty much gone all of the time.


A few weeks ago, I finally made it to the hardware and bought another 5' mast, figuring if I get that yagi above the next-door house, I could get a clearer shot at 275°. When I put it up, by aiming more toward 270°, I could pull in UPN, but FOX on channel 58 started getting interrupted by cars driving by. A little more fine tuning, and it seemed I found just the right aim.


This worked for a week or so, then last weekend, I wake up to a rainy day, and both 14 and 58 are having reception problems when cars drive by. Once the rain dried up, I swapped out the yagi for a 4221, with no improvement. The best I can seem to do is either all except UPN, or all except FOX without interruption, regardless which of these antennas I use.


So, my questions: Are these symptoms of multipath? What's the next plan of attack? It irritates me to think I such an elaborate setup is necessary in this part of the city, but I'm considering putting both these beasts up on that mast and hooking them up with a channel 14 Jointenna. Is there something else I should try before this?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by tbb1226_
> *WKBD-DT 50.1 UPN DETROIT MI 275° 9.3 14
> 
> WJBK-DT 2.1 FOX DETROIT MI 253° 4.7 58
> 
> 
> The best I can seem to do is either all except UPN, or all except FOX without interruption, regardless which of these antennas I use.
> 
> 
> So, my questions: Are these symptoms of multipath? What's the next plan of attack?*



You have all the symptoms of multipath. Your plan of attack depends on a lot of things.


The higher the channel number, the more directional your antenna becomes, meaning that aiming away from the Fox tower will likely cause you reception problems on that channel.


You don't say what kind of receiver you're using. Some handle multipath better than others.


If you haven't tried it yet, get a variable attenuator from Radio Shack and see if you can dial the signal strength down a little. It might be able to block the multipath.


You also might want to try tilting your yagis up, even as much as 20-30 degrees. This should reduce their sensitivity to reflections from the ground. (Most people have to do this in reverse because of airplane traffic.)


Fox won't be able to stay on channel 58 after the analog shutoff, as that frequency is out of the DTV core of 2-51.


A rotor would doubtless solve your problems, since you wouldn't have to pick one direction to aim at, but you're probably looking for a fix-it-and-forget-it solution.


----------



## tbb1226

Thanks for your suggestions.


I started with a Mits DirecTV receiver, and just recently switched to the HR10-250. Both receivers have the same issues.


I have tried an attenuator - its only effect is to reduce reception on channels I'm getting fine without it. Average signal strength on the HR10-250 when no cars are driving by is in the 70s


I do need a 'fix-and-forget' solution, especially now with the TiVo.


I think I'll try tilting the yagi, though I'm not quite sure how to accomplish that.


Thanks again.


----------



## intermod

tbb1226


I'm getting WKBD-DT at 66 on my F38310, must be a nice duct along

the lake shore. Its been rock solid all morning. Pointing 310 degrees from

Cleveland, Oh. We have a local NBC station on ch 2 here as well, I have noticed that when the band is up I have trouble with digital stations not locking at all.

at least with analog stuff you can tell whats going on.


Dan


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by tbb1226_
> *I think I'll try tilting the yagi, though I'm not quite sure how to accomplish that.*



If you're handy you could probably fashion a bracket similar to what's shown here: http://www.atechfabrication.com/prod...g_brackets.htm 


Or you could spring for what they're charging for one that's pre-made.


I know I've seen such things elsewhere but can't find them now. I've also seen remote controlled ones allowing you to tilt on demand.


----------



## redhawk

I purchased my HDTV 3 months ago. I have the 811 Dish receiver. AT first I hooked up my attic antenna with an amp. to get OTA signals. It worked for a short time, then I lost most of the signals. I called KGAN and the engineer told me to try rabbit ears. I had a set that was 20 yrs. old, so I put them in the attic and hooked then up to my Amp. It has worked very well. I live about 20 miles from the Walker towers and probably 60 miles from the Des Moines towers. I get KCRG and KGAN fine and KWWL some of the time. I get 13 and 17 out of DEs Moines real well. I am lucky getting 17 because they do NFL in HD. I know most of this does not make sense, but I thought I would share this info. in case it would help someone.


----------



## Joe_R

Live in Delaware. Philly stations were a problem for me as a large hill is in my line of sight. So I pointed south the Baltimore.


RS Yagi (uhf/vhf/stereo) ... only using half of the antenna

CM 7777 preamp

RCA DTC-100


I get every channel from Baltimore with this setup. CBS,NBC,ABC,FOX,WB,PBS (mpt-annapolis). I even occasionally pickup DC stations but the air has to be right.


I tried a CM 4228 UHF but it didn't seem to work as well as the Yagi so I took it down. It's for sale if anyone local want's to buy it.


----------



## skirt

i have signals in the mid 70's to low 80's. if i add a preamp can i use a diplexer to combine the signal and the power for the preamp??? i only have one rg-6 wire running up to the outside antenna and don't want to run another one if at all possible. also will a preamp help my signals much???


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by skirt_
> *i have signals in the mid 70's to low 80's.*



Unless you're seeing macroblocking or have audio dropouts, your reception won't get any better with higher numbers.


----------



## skirt

i have no drops - what is macroblocking???? i do have pixilazation at times.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by skirt_
> *i have no drops - what is macroblocking???? i do have pixilazation at times.*



Sounds like macroblocking.


Preamps help in areas with weak signals. They do harm in areas with strong signals. If you have a lot of snow on analog UHF stations, then a preamplifier might help.


The best thing you could do to improve reception is to run a dedicated line for the antenna. Diplexers cause signal loss and other problems that can be hard to trace.


As far as I know, no diplexer passes DC current anyway, so you couldn't use a preamp as long as you have the diplexer in the mix.


----------



## Mac03

I was looking at the Terk TV-36 that Crutchfield offers. Has anyone used this antenna for their OTA HD channels? I live about 15 miles from the broadcasting site and can mount it on my roof. Are there any others that are basic and easy that I can hook up through my Dish and will work just as well or better? Thanks.


----------



## PGHammer




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Mac03_
> *I was looking at the Terk TV-36 that Crutchfield offers. Has anyone used this antenna for their OTA HD channels? I live about 15 miles from the broadcasting site and can mount it on my roof. Are there any others that are basic and easy that I can hook up through my Dish and will work just as well or better? Thanks.*



I have ATI's Zenith SilverSensor clone and I'm about the same distance away (actually a little further; about twenty miles) from the primary group of DC towers. The only DC HD locals I am *not* picking up are either lightbulb-powered (WDCA-DT), or not on the air yet (WHUT-DT). No preamp (I actually *removed* the indoor distribution amp I had been using, as it caused signal overload) and wired direct. WRC-DT is bell-clear, WJLA-DT is the best it's ever been, and WETA-DT is even *less* problematic than it used to be (even though the signal itself is marginally *weaker* because the distro amp is no longer in the picture).


Even WBDC-D1 (DC's WB-Digital) is in the house.


UNfortunately, so is the dreaded PAXMonster (all six SD channels of WPXW-DT43) and *both* halves of MHz Networks' digital mishmash (30-x and 57-1). In addition, I have one of the *worst* signal pictures (I'm in the basement of my house, and the window the antenna is facing faces the wrong way, e.g., the rear of the house; as the towers themselves are behind me).


When WETA gets a permanent placement, WDCA-DT moves up from lightbulb power, and WHUT-DT finds a home, I'll be in ideal shape.


Not shabby at all for a bargain basement (pun not intended) basement HDPC.


----------



## viggster

Hi all - First visit to thread and hopeful I can get some help.


I live in downtown DC (Logan Circle actually), about 3 miles from the transmitters in Tenleytown. I can pick up WJLA, WUSA, WTTG, and WBDC with my SilverSensor clone and HDTV wonder card. But I can't get any of the PBS stations, which I would really like to pull in.


Now, since I'm so close to the transmitters, I figure that my setup, not my location is the trouble. I'm on the 3rd floor of a 5-story condo building. I face west (toward Tenleytown), but since I'm in the middle of town I'm surrounded by other buildings. I don't think any of them directly block my LOS, but I'm not positive.


I need suggestions for an antenna that will work in my situation. I have a balcony so can mount a small outdoor job out there. But no room for a monster.


Any suggestions? Thanks much.


BV


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by viggster_
> *I need suggestions for an antenna that will work in my situation. I have a balcony so can mount a small outdoor job out there. But no room for a monster.
> *



For both you and the poster asking about the Terk TV-36, my advice is the same: get a Winegard SquareShooter. They're expensive for an antenna, but they offer superior performance in a compact package.


----------



## Marcus Alzona




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by viggster_
> *Hi all - First visit to thread and hopeful I can get some help.
> 
> 
> I live in downtown DC (Logan Circle actually), about 3 miles from the transmitters in Tenleytown. I can pick up WJLA, WUSA, WTTG, and WBDC with my SilverSensor clone and HDTV wonder card. But I can't get any of the PBS stations, which I would really like to pull in.
> 
> 
> Now, since I'm so close to the transmitters, I figure that my setup, not my location is the trouble. I'm on the 3rd floor of a 5-story condo building. I face west (toward Tenleytown), but since I'm in the middle of town I'm surrounded by other buildings. I don't think any of them directly block my LOS, but I'm not positive.
> 
> 
> I need suggestions for an antenna that will work in my situation. I have a balcony so can mount a small outdoor job out there. But no room for a monster.
> 
> 
> Any suggestions? Thanks much.
> 
> 
> BV*



Hi BV,


Check out AntennaWeb for pointing your antenna. My understanding is that WETA's digital signal is being broadcast off a completely different tower (in Virginia) than its analog signal (in MD, a mile or so past Tenleytown). The Silver Sensor is great - but it is fairly directional. Try pointing it in the direction indicated on AntennaWeb for channel 27, and see if you get the 4 WETA digital channels....


(I plugged in the approximate address of Logan - used to live in Dupont myself).


Marcus


----------



## isyp

I am experiencing what seems to be a unique signal problem. I am using a RS VU-190 with no pre-amp to both a D* LG receiver and the ever hard to find HR10-250. The cable run is RG6 and only has one splitter right before the boxes. I have tried a 1000MHz splitter as well as a RS distribution amp.


The problem that I am running into is this, I point the antenna to get a decent (70-85) signal from all stations. Everything is working well so I assume it will continue to work well. About the time I try to watch something the signal drops and the antenna needs to be adjusted (thank goodness for rotators). That was all well and good when I was only tuning one channel at a time. Now that I am trying to do some recordings it presents a problem. Any time I fine tune one channel it adversely effects another. Sometimes the signal will bounce from 0 to 70+ almost constantly. I've always had some problems with tuning, the normal bearing for the antenna should be ~200 degrees but sometimes I have to go as low as 180 or as high as 260.


There are 2 towers that house all of the antennas in the area (Madison, WI). I am ~50 miles from the towers and they are ~2.5 degrees apart. My thinking is that I should be able to receive all stations without moving the antenna since the towers are only 2.5 degrees away from each other.


I am debating on whether to try a CM 7777 or add a CM 4228 for the UHF band. Unfortunately FOX DT is VHF here. I've noticed most of the problems with the UHF side, hence the thought of adding a UHF only antenna.


If I add the 4228 how can I combine that with the VHF side of the VU-190? Is it as simple as removing the UHF side from the VU-190 and running both antennas through a combiner to the one cable?


Any help anyone can provide will be greatly appreciated.


----------



## sregener

A preamplifier is a great idea at 50 miles. Get a Winegard UHF-only model. (The Channel Master lineup will either amplify VHF, which you're not having trouble with, or fail to pass VHF.)


If you want to combine another antenna, a Channel Master #0549 will do the trick - it will filter out the UHF on one side and the VHF on the other. No modifications to your current antenna would be necessary.


----------



## isyp

So on the Winegard side the AP-4700 or AP-4800 should be of help. Is there any chance of overdriving the signal at 50 miles or should I be safe going with the bigger of the two? Also, given my distance from the towers would it hurt to amp both VHF and UHF even though I am not currently experiencing problems with the VHF? I might just as soon spend a little extra money now, AP-8275, to know I'm covered down the road. I'd hate the get a UHF only and then experience VHF problems and need to add a VHF or UHF / VHF later.


Also, as I understand it I could go with the CM 4228 and use the CM 0549 to combine and then run through a preamp if needed as well correct?


Thanks.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by isyp_
> *So on the Winegard side the AP-4700 or AP-4800 should be of help. Is there any chance of overdriving the signal at 50 miles or should I be safe going with the bigger of the two? Also, given my distance from the towers would it hurt to amp both VHF and UHF even though I am not currently experiencing problems with the VHF? I might just as soon spend a little extra money now, AP-8275, to know I'm covered down the road. I'd hate the get a UHF only and then experience VHF problems and need to add a VHF or UHF / VHF later.
> 
> 
> Also, as I understand it I could go with the CM 4228 and use the CM 0549 to combine and then run through a preamp if needed as well correct?*



You won't overdrive the signal (unless you have something nearby that's broadcasting at high power.) Generally speaking, you don't need to amplify VHF at 50 miles. It travels further and better than UHF.


Antenna 1 -----------> CM #0549


----------



## isyp

Thank you very much for the advise. I hope it clears up some of the problems I've been having.


----------



## viggster

Marcus - Thanks for the tips. I checked out AntennaWeb and it does show the WETA towers to the southwest. I'll try that out.


Did you try DTV reception in Dupont? If so, I'd be curious what antenna you went with. BV


----------



## John Haghighi

I am having a hard time getting the HR10-250 to lock on to a signal. I've got a VHF/UHF attenna, and I am about 26 miles from the site. The interesting this is the HD-300 receiver I have can lock in at 65%, but HR10-250 jumps from 1-41 without locking in? I know it's tuner is not as good, but is this a multipath issuse? I am surrounded by buildings, so I am not sure if I should try a UHF only or perhaps a db4 over a directional antenna?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by John Haghighi_
> *I am having a hard time getting the HR10-250 to lock on to a signal. I've got a VHF/UHF attenna, and I am about 26 miles from the site. The interesting this is the HD-300 receiver I have can lock in at 65%, but HR10-250 jumps from 1-41 without locking in? I know it's tuner is not as good, but is this a multipath issuse? I am surrounded by buildings, so I am not sure if I should try a UHF only or perhaps a db4 over a directional antenna?*



Sounds like multipath. What do your analog UHF stations look like?


The DB4 is a directional antenna. It's very good.


----------



## jasonb

I have seen several posts with discussion of HD reception issues. I have had very good luck with a Winegard Powered Antenna. It is fairly directional and resembles a batwing. Advanced Audio has been selling them. I was able to receive all HD programming through this antenna 1 mile north of Belle Plaine. It is worth a shot if you are having trouble. So far I have helped 4 friends set up their HD TVs and this has solved their reception issues.


----------



## Zero3ffect

I'm a total noob at all this stuff so I figured I would run it by you guys since there are so many people who know what they are talking about. I live in Aberdeen, MD and according to Antenna Web all the digital stations except PBS have a compass orientation of 256 degrees and are located aproximately 25.2 miles from my house. I don't think I really care to much about PBS but it is located at a compass orientation of 223 degrees and is located approximately 39.1 miles away. All are UHF signals. I also only wish to run it to 1 TV (or to be more specific to my HTL-HD STB). I was looking at the Channel Master 4248 and was wondering if that would be good enough and if I would also need to get a pre-amp or not. I understand that if I wanted to get PBS that I would need to get an antenna rotator. Also, if the CM 4248 isn't good enough could someone recommend one that would work well but I don't really wish to have a stacked antenna even though everyone says they work very well. Thanks in advance for any help you can offer me.


----------



## arxaw

Zero3ffect,

I would try a CM 4221 outdoor aimed ~240°. If signal strength is low, add a CM 7777 preamp , but only if needed.


Mounting the antenna as high up as possible helps.


----------



## Marcus Alzona




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by viggster_
> *Marcus - Thanks for the tips. I checked out AntennaWeb and it does show the WETA towers to the southwest. I'll try that out.
> 
> 
> Did you try DTV reception in Dupont? If so, I'd be curious what antenna you went with. BV*



Any luck yet with the WETA towers BV?


Didn't have HD equipment when I lived in Dupont, so sorry, no info there.


----------



## SWiTCH

Hey guys.. Im new to this HDTV stuff and am just getting my butt kicked trying to get OTA stuff. I thought my needs were simple. Here is a list of the towers I am trying to get:


WTVD-DT 11.1 ABC DURHAM NC 39° 7.5 52

WRAL-DT 5.1 CBS RALEIGH NC 39° 8.1 53

WRAZ-DT 50.1 FOX RALEIGH NC 39° 8.1 49

WRDC-DT 28.1 UPN DURHAM NC 39° 8.1 27

WNCN-DT 17.1 NBC GOLDSBORO NC 39° 8.1 55

WLFL-DT 22.1 WB RALEIGH NC 39° 8.1 57


Looks pretty straightforward. I'm reasonably close to the towers and everything pretty much lines up. So, I started with a Silver Sensor, which gets most everything except 28.1. I thought I'd try a 15-1880 which got worse results than the SS. At that point I figured I needed to do something outside. I figured since I was so close to the towers, outside should be a no brainer and solve my problems.


So anyway, the dish installer came and swapped my dish out and while he was at it, he installed a Winegard MS-1000. The MS-1000 is the worse of the 3. It won't get but 1 station. The installer said I probably need a signal amplifier, which he is supposed to bring by tomorrow. He said if that doesn't fix the problem, he is going to install "The Bat Wing", which I assume is some sort of directional antenea.


I guess my big question is what should I expect from adding an amplifier? The guy did the antenea install cheap and I guess it was worth it just to get a mast mounted and a cable run if I have to change it later but I'd sure rather it be working than me have to be monkeying around with it.


So, anyone got any suggestions on how to handle the installer or even a completely different route? I'm open to any suggestions at this point.


Thanks!


Jay


----------



## tbb1226

It's highly unlikely a signal amp will improve things.


All your transmitters are in the same spot, apparently. If you have line-of-sight to the towers, you should be using a very directional antenna, and maybe even a signal _attenuator_. I think that Winegard is one of those "omnidirectional" saucers, is it not? For a quick and easy test, try connecting your Silver Sensor up there and point it at 39°. I'd be surprised if that doesn't pull them in solid.


----------



## arxaw

switch,

Your dish installer is clueless about OTA antennas.


The Winegard MS-1000 is an OMNI-directional antenna, which is absolutely the worst antenna you can use for OTA digital tv. Get a good small, inexpensive CM 4221 outdoor UHF antenna .


You can order one and have it in about 3 days.


----------



## SWiTCH




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by tbb1226_
> *It's highly unlikely a signal amp will improve things.
> 
> 
> All your transmitters are in the same spot, apparently. If you have line-of-sight to the towers, you should be using a very directional antenna, and maybe even a signal attenuator. I think that Winegard is one of those "omnidirectional" saucers, is it not? For a quick and easy test, try connecting your Silver Sensor up there and point it at 39°. I'd be surprised if that doesn't pull them in solid.*



The MS1000 is an omnidirectional, yes. I really didnt think an amp would help either but the installer seemed to think it would. He said if it didn't, "The Bat Wing" was a directional antenea and that was the route we were going to go.


Interesting idea about putting the SS outside. with the coax already run, that's very doable. Might be a good experiment and lay the groundwork for a more permanent solution.


Jay


----------



## John Haghighi




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *Sounds like multipath. What do your analog UHF stations look like?
> 
> 
> The DB4 is a directional antenna. It's very good.*



There's some ghosting on UHF channels, with that said would a directional be a better choice?


----------



## arxaw

john,

Directional is always better if multipath is a problem. Multipath shows up as ghosting on analog channels and wild signal strength fluctuations or no signal on digital.


----------



## xcrappy

My question is: Is it safe to put an in-line amplifyer (such as the ones you buy at radio shack) in between a preamp (channel master 7775 preamp)?


My wire run is well over 200+ feet long. It starts off with my RS 15-2160 in the attic, then to the preamp connector on the antenna, through my existing cable wires on the second floor (set up by my cable company), to the outside box connected to a wire that leads to my downstairs family room, and finally to the power supply and TV. We did this method because it requires only one hole to make in the ceiling and to have no wires running down the side of the house.


If i take one single 100ft wire and connect it directly to the TV downstairs with the preamp on, I receive all the channels with no breakups. But if I go through my method, i get occasional breakups, and KCBS no longer comes in.


So is it safe to use a small inline amplifyer (most likely at my outside cable box where the the anntena is connected to the wire that leads to the TV) along with a preamp? I am afraid it might overload or damage the channel master 7775. I do not wish to change my existing setup, because we do not want to drill any extra holes or have any wires running down the side of the house. Any help is apperciated. Thank you for your time.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by xcrappy_
> *So is it safe to use a small inline amplifyer (most likely at my outside cable box where the the anntena is connected to the wire that leads to the TV) along with a preamp? I am afraid it might overload or damage the channel master 7775. I do not wish to change my existing setup, because we do not want to drill any extra holes or have any wires running down the side of the house. Any help is apperciated. Thank you for your time.*



You should be able to do this; you won't want to use the power inserter included with the inline amplifier since there will already be power provided by the power inserter for the preamp.


There is a small concern that the inline amplifier would overload the power supply if the preamp is needing to draw the max current it can provide, but that probably won't be the case. And I'd expect all that'd happen is voltage would drop and the preamp and inline amplifier both wouldn't be doing much and you'd notice. I wouldn't expect it would harm anything.


If the inline amplifier blocks DC voltage on the antenna side then your preamp will stop working; I don't know if they block DC voltage or let it pass.


----------



## xcrappy

Which inline amp do you think i should try?
http://www.circuitcity.com/rpsm/oid/...ecification.do 
http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D1170 
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....9&type=product


----------



## dswallow

The ones you linked to at Circuit City and Best Buy are for satellite signals not OTA. Of the 3 only the Radio Shack one is what you want.


----------



## xcrappy




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dswallow_
> *The ones you linked to at Circuit City and Best Buy are for satellite signals not OTA. Of the 3 only the Radio Shack one is what you want.*



But dont they serve the same purpose?

Best Buy- "Amplifies incoming signal for best picture quality when installation requires long cable runs"

Citcuit City - The person who wrote the review said he successfully used it for OTA hdtv reception.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by xcrappy_
> *But dont they serve the same purpose?
> 
> Best Buy- "Amplifies incoming signal for best picture quality when installation requires long cable runs"
> 
> Citcuit City - The person who wrote the review said he successfully used it for OTA hdtv reception.*



If you can find any real specs on them, as long as they're amplifying 50-850 MHz OK, they'll work for OTA; you want to be sure they have a decently flat amplification though; any distortion introduced can affect how a receiver could tune the channel.


----------



## arxaw

I would not attempt to connect two line powered preamps on the same line. The RS "inline" amp is basicaly a preamp like the CM 7775.


A one piece amp like these _may_ work w/ the CM 7775, but noise levels from 2 amps may be too high for DTV.


----------



## cpcat

Xcrappy,

I'd use the CM 3042 which is available at Lowe's. It should solve your problem. You insert it after the power supply to the CM 7775 and it's designed for indoor use. In-line amps are higher noise but also more immune to overload by design. Low noise is not as important in an in-line amp as it is on the mast with the preamp.


----------



## RobbyG

Hi - I'm new to HD so apologize for any stupid questions in advance. I have a fairly large antenna on my roof already that gets really good regular broadcasts and the guys at Radio Shack were telling me that this same antenna could be used to get DTV transmissions. Is that true? I was under the impression I needed an antenna that was specifically branded HDTV capable.


Also, can any of you recommend a good OTA STB.


Thanks for any info.


----------



## thepicman

I am wondering if anyone has compared the Channel Master to the Aston Martin? Which is faster in 0-60 times?










Really, I have a 4228 and get great results with it. There are a few fringe stations for which I would like a bit more daytime signal. I currently have a CM 7777 pre on the 4228. The specs on the DB8 look better, the balun is better, and the construction is better.


Anyone switch from the 4228 to the DB8? if so, why? What were your experiences?


TIA


TPM


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by RobbyG_
> *Hi - I'm new to HD so apologize for any stupid questions in advance. I have a fairly large antenna on my roof already that gets really good regular broadcasts and the guys at Radio Shack were telling me that this same antenna could be used to get DTV transmissions. Is that true? I was under the impression I needed an antenna that was specifically branded HDTV capable.
> 
> 
> Also, can any of you recommend a good OTA STB.*



Have you read the FAQ for this forum? It will tell you that your current antenna can receive HD signals because they're broadcast on the same frequencies as analog television stations. Most are UHF (channel 14 and higher) right now, so if you only get good reception on channels 2-13, you might need a better UHF antenna.


Check the Hardware forum for the STB comparison to see which OTA STB might suit your needs.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by RobbyG_
> 
> ... I was under the impression I needed an antenna that was specifically branded HDTV capable.



There is no such thing as a DTV or HDTV antenna. All you need is a good OTA UHF or VHF+UHF antenna, depending on what band(s) the DTV stations are using in your area. To find out, enter your address at:
http://www.antennaweb.org 

Look at the "Antenna Type" column there to determine if the DTV station is VHF or UHF.



> Quote:
> Also, can any of you recommend a good OTA STB.



The LG LST-4200A is currently one of the best performing OTA STBs. Also available HERE , or Google: LST-4200A


----------



## Will-san

OK here is my problem I live in a single story house 14.7 miles from the transmitter(according to antenna web). Right next to us and directly in the way of the tower is a 4 story apt building. Antenna web recommends a medium range directional antenna. I guess I question the idea of pointing a Highly directional antenna right into an apartment building.


As a test I took my silver sensor up to the roof. It does better than it did in the living room, but I still cant get a reliable signal.


To make matters worse there is the WAF. She is now all excited about an attic mount, although I could probably talk her into something small like the wingard Square shooter or one of the smaller antennasdirect Yagi models.


Has anyone out there had success in a similar situation?


----------



## Nosferatu

I need an indoor antenna that won't put me back a good amount of money and the towers where the HDTV feeds are coming from are 15mi from me. Any ideas? My parents are using a cheap Terk Antenna and it seems to work fine...then again they're only 5mi from their tower.


----------



## CycloneGT

 The Legend


----------



## Nosferatu




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by CycloneGT_
> * The Legend *



doesn't do VHF


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Nosferatu_
> *doesn't do VHF
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Actually, it's quite good for hi-VHF (channels 7-13) if you're reasonably close (say, within 20-30 miles.)


----------



## omega379

My Local Tweeter have recommended the Terk 35; Do anyone have any experience with this Antenna. According to Antennaweb the farthest digital station is 27 miles.


omega379


----------



## arxaw

Do NOT buy *any* antenna made by TERK. They are not worth the inflated price and seldom work well. When they do work, a coathanger would likely work just as well.


They are often recommended because there's a lot of markup/profit on them.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Nosferatu_
> *I need an indoor antenna that won't put me back a good amount of money and the towers where the HDTV feeds are coming from are 15mi from me. Any ideas? My parents are using a cheap Terk Antenna and it seems to work fine...then again they're only 5mi from their tower.*



Your two VHF digitals are VHF highband (chs 7-13). They can often be received with an antenna designed for UHF (chs 14-69)


If all your stations are within a few degrees of each other, try a Silver Sensor pointed in the general direction of the transmitters. If they're spread out in several directions, try a less directional antenna like the Radio Shack double bowtie .


If the VHFs are low on the signal strength meter, add a low noise VHF/UHF preamp, like the CM 7777 .


----------



## hancox

Typical WAF problem here.


Have a Winegard amplified Sensar mounted on my Dish mount. Works ok, but want more. WAF dictates that nothing bigger goes on the roof.


Wondering if adding something like a 4228 in the attic would help. I *think* I could combine these, too, but only if I don't amplify 1 or the other.


Would the indoor mount kill the 4228's usefulness in my install?



BTW - looking to get NYC signals from 06825.


----------



## sregener

Combining signals from two dissimilar antennas is very difficult to do well. Your most likely result will be digital killing multipath.


Attic installs are a crap shoot. You might get a good signal. You might not. Hard to tell, and impossible to predict. Buy a 4228 from a place that has a good return policy and try it out is the best I can tell you.


----------



## jasguild

Hi


I installed an outside antenna in my attic and it works fine to pull all my hd channels. The antenna I bought also had a fm antenna attached. However, instead of improving the fm reception, it is worse than the reception I get with just the little temporary wire that I got with the receiver.


The antenna directions did not go into much detail, but I followed the installation instructions to the best of my abilty. I ran the coax down from the antenna and then split it at the bottom where one went into the TV for OTA HD receiption and the other went to the Receiveer for fm reception.


At first I thought it may be the cable, but then again it receives the HD channels perfectly. I have swapped out the portion of the cable after the split to the receiver but that has not helped either


Does anyone know why I am having problems??


Thanks


jasguild


----------



## Ratman

... and what would be the antenna you are using?

Type/model #


----------



## black_macleod

Thanks to this forum


I got a Samsung STB today as I'm sick of paying E* for my locals. Cool thing is I can do split screen on my Panny 53x54 and put the Baseball game on split ... man the E* colors are horrible. Time to cancel that part of my package.


I'm in St. Louis, live in the city and am getting fairly good reception with a cheapo Jensen indoor antennae. As soon as I fix that problem, I'll get PBS and UPN. Right now its Fox, CBS, NBC and ABC.


Anyhow I've been lurking here so thanks for all the help.


----------



## alanh1232

I want to mount a CM4228 in my attic and attach to a E* 811 HD rec. How well would this work with plywood roofing and shingles, 25 miles from most transmissions, two story with large attic south of Atlanta?


----------



## jasguild




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jasguild_
> *Hi
> 
> 
> I installed an outside antenna in my attic and it works fine to pull all my hd channels. The antenna I bought also had a fm antenna attached. However, instead of improving the fm reception, it is worse than the reception I get with just the little temporary wire that I got with the receiver.
> 
> 
> The antenna directions did not go into much detail, but I followed the installation instructions to the best of my abilty. I ran the coax down from the antenna and then split it at the bottom where one went into the TV for OTA HD receiption and the other went to the Receiveer for fm reception.
> 
> 
> At first I thought it may be the cable, but then again it receives the HD channels perfectly. I have swapped out the portion of the cable after the split to the receiver but that has not helped either
> 
> 
> Does anyone know why I am having problems??
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> jasguild*





I am using Radio Shack 15-2154 which is a 120" Boom Length, 37 element antenna



Thanks


----------



## mboland

Combining Two UHF Antennas?


This is a great forum and I'd like to ask you guys for some advice on how I can combine two UHF antennas without it killing the reception from both.


I live in Cullman, Alabama and I am at the edge of two markets. The Huntsville stations are north-north east and the Birmingham stations are due south. I started off with a DB4 in the attic with no pre-amp. That worked great for the direction I pointed it. The more I learned about the various stations the more I realized I needed to pull in stations from both markets to cover all the OTA HD network content. My second UHF antenna purchase was the CM4228. I have the CM4228 with CM7777 pre-amp pointing toward Birmingham and the DB4 with Philips Pre-amp pointing toward Huntsville. I'm getting every station possible as long as I am only hooking one of the lines up to my D* HD Tivo receiver. If I combine them all the stations go to crap. If I combine them at the pre-amp (eliminating one pre-amp) I get the same thing. A side note to my situation is that the only ABC station in my broadcasting HD is in the low VHF (ch 5). I have a VHF special cut for ch 5 and it also runs through my CM7777 with the VHF separate configuration. The CM4228 and VHF Ch 5 antenna combined using the CM7777 works great but when I combine those with the DB4 it kills the reception for everything.


I think I understand the problem to be multi-path created from the UHF antennas pulling in a signal from the non desired direction. Is there anything I can do to combine these two UHF antennas into a single input to my HD TiVo?


As long as I am at home I can use an A/B switch or just connect the needed cable for what I'm wanting to view at that time but to get the full use out of my TiVo I'd like to be able to just tune stations from both cities without having to make this manual change.


Thanks in advance for any helpful advice you may have.


Mike


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by hancox_
> *... Have a Winegard amplified Sensar mounted on my Dish mount. Works ok, but want more. WAF dictates that nothing bigger goes on the roof.
> 
> 
> Wondering if adding something like a 4228 in the attic would help. I *think* I could combine these, too, but only if I don't amplify 1 or the other...
> 
> 
> BTW - looking to get NYC signals from 06825.*



Quick & dirty answer:

If combining the two antennas with a hybrid splitter/combiner doesn't work, forget combining and use an A/B switch to jump between the 2 antennas. sregener is right - such combinations are always crap shoots.


If antennaweb is correct for that ZIP, you'll need an antenna rotor to get all the stations from a multitude of compass directions


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mboland_
> *...I'd like to ask you guys for some advice on how I can combine two UHF antennas without it killing the reception from both.*



Have you tried reversing the balun leads on one of the antennas?


If that doesn't help, I would abandon the combiner and use the A/B setup.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jasguild_
> *I am using Radio Shack 15-2154 which is a 120" Boom Length, 37 element antenna*



Are you using an antenna amp or preamp? If so, make sure the FM Trap is disabled.


----------



## mboland




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by arxaw_
> *Have you tried reversing the balun leads on one of the antennas?
> 
> 
> If that doesn't help, I would abandon the combiner and use the A/B setup.*



I have not done that but I'll give that a try. Easy enough to try.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mboland_
> *This is a great forum and I'd like to ask you guys for some advice on how I can combine two UHF antennas without it killing the reception from both.
> *



The only way to do this properly (and sometimes it's better to be lucky than good) is to filter out the undesired channels from each antenna. If you only need one channel in a different direction, a Channel Master Jointenna usually does the trick. It has two inputs, one for everything except channel x, and another for channel x only. If you need more than one channel in each direction, then you're looking at very expensive filtering solutions that would probably leave you broke.


----------



## jasguild




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by arxaw_
> *Are you using an antenna amp or preamp? If so, make sure the FM Trap is disabled.*



Hey Arxaw


Thanks for responding. I am NOT using an antenna amp or preamp. Just a straight coaxical wire from the antenna which is split at the bottom for the tv and for the receiver.


jasguild


----------



## PhilJSmith67

I used to have an Antenna Specialists splitter that had a single coax input, a single coax VHF/UHF output with FM blocked, and 300-ohm twin-lead terminals with FM bandpass only. It was fried by lightning and I never bothered to look for a replacement. Nevertheless, that splitter was very effective in keeping the first harmonic of a 50kW station on 99.9 from destroying channel 11, and the stereo had reception on 88.1 that was equally as good as 107.9.


Does anyone know if such a splitter is available from any other vendor? It would be grossly inefficient to use a typical VHF/UHF/FM splitter which usually has a coax VHF output, and twin lead outputs for UHF and FM.


----------



## rwantennasat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mboland_
> *Combining Two UHF Antennas?
> 
> 
> This is a great forum and I'd like to ask you guys for some advice on how I can combine two UHF antennas without it killing the reception from both.
> 
> 
> I live in Cullman, Alabama and I am at the edge of two markets. The Huntsville stations are north-north east and the Birmingham stations are due south. I started off with a DB4 in the attic with no pre-amp. That worked great for the direction I pointed it. The more I learned about the various stations the more I realized I needed to pull in stations from both markets to cover all the OTA HD network content. My second UHF antenna purchase was the CM4228. I have the CM4228 with CM7777 pre-amp pointing toward Birmingham and the DB4 with Philips Pre-amp pointing toward Huntsville. I'm getting every station possible as long as I am only hooking one of the lines up to my D* HD Tivo receiver. If I combine them all the stations go to crap. If I combine them at the pre-amp (eliminating one pre-amp) I get the same thing. A side note to my situation is that the only ABC station in my broadcasting HD is in the low VHF (ch 5). I have a VHF special cut for ch 5 and it also runs through my CM7777 with the VHF separate configuration. The CM4228 and VHF Ch 5 antenna combined using the CM7777 works great but when I combine those with the DB4 it kills the reception for everything.
> 
> 
> I think I understand the problem to be multi-path created from the UHF antennas pulling in a signal from the non desired direction. Is there anything I can do to combine these two UHF antennas into a single input to my HD TiVo?
> 
> 
> As long as I am at home I can use an A/B switch or just connect the needed cable for what I'm wanting to view at that time but to get the full use out of my TiVo I'd like to be able to just tune stations from both cities without having to make this manual change.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for any helpful advice you may have.
> 
> 
> Mike*



You can never combine 2 disimilar antennas and expect any kind of results. We are doing combined installs up here in W.N.Y. and what you must do is get 2 similar antennas. run them to a 2 port antenna coupler with exactly the same lengths of cable or twin lead. then out of the coupler to the amplifier. then donlead to the powersupply and STB. any other combo will result in out of phase signals as well as terrible multipathing. My shop sells all the stuff you need including the hard to find couplers. if ya have any questions e-mail me at [email protected] im always happy to help out anyone on the forum. We've been doing antenna systems since 1982. take care Rich


----------



## rwantennasat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by PhilJSmith67_
> *I used to have an Antenna Specialists splitter that had a single coax input, a single coax VHF/UHF output with FM blocked, and 300-ohm twin-lead terminals with FM bandpass only. It was fried by lightning and I never bothered to look for a replacement. Nevertheless, that splitter was very effective in keeping the first harmonic of a 50kW station on 99.9 from destroying channel 11, and the stereo had reception on 88.1 that was equally as good as 107.9.
> 
> 
> Does anyone know if such a splitter is available from any other vendor? It would be grossly inefficient to use a typical VHF/UHF/FM splitter which usually has a coax VHF output, and twin lead outputs for UHF and FM.*



I have some winegard outdoor model antenna splitter combiners. they will allow a vhf uhf antenna in on one leg and a fm antenna in on the other and a single downlead. this can be used outdoor for 2 seperate antennas or indoors to split off a single antennas signal to dif. devices Winegard no longer makes em but i still have a bunch of them. e-mail me directly at: [email protected] 

take care Rich


----------



## thepicman

This new way of organizing the OTA topics is great for area discussions, but is not good for topics such as antennas. Perhaps the mods could do a similar breakdown for antenna types?


CM 4228

Dat 75

WG 8808 ect....



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by thepicman_
> *I am wondering if anyone has compared the Channel Master to the Aston Martin? Which is faster in 0-60 times?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really, I have a 4228 and get great results with it. There are a few fringe stations for which I would like a bit more daytime signal. I currently have a CM 7777 pre on the 4228. The specs on the DB8 look better, the balun is better, and the construction is better.
> 
> 
> Anyone switch from the 4228 to the DB8? if so, why? What were your experiences?
> 
> 
> TIA
> 
> 
> TPM*


----------



## PhilJSmith67

It would make sense to start a topic under HDTV Hardware instead of this market-oriented Local HDTV Info and Reception forum.


----------



## wad06

I'm looking for an antenna recommendation.


I live between 2 and 12 miles from any towers I'm trying to receive.


Here's the kicker though, compass ranges from 11 degrees to 317 degrees and must have channels are at 11, 187, and 317 (ridiculous, huh).


Channels range from 2.1 to 58.1, but must have channels only range from 2.1 to 17.1.


Frequency assignments range from 15 to 56, with 15 and 56 both being very important.


Antennaweb recommends a "red" antenna. I was considering a CM 4221 for outdoor or a Silver Sensor for indoor. Which do you guys think is a better idea. I know the general rule is bigger is better and higher is better, but I'm so close to the stations, that I wasn't sure if that held.


Any help would be greatly appreciated.


Wad


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by wad06_
> *I live between 2 and 12 miles from any towers I'm trying to receive.
> *



I'd try the Silver Sensor first. If it doesn't work, you can always return it.


It's highly unlikely that any outdoor antenna is going to work for you without a rotor, given the wide spread of directions you need to receive. You could try a 4-bay bowtie with the reflector screen removed. It *might* work.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by wad06_
> 
> ... I live between 2 and 12 miles from any towers I'm trying to receive.
> 
> 
> Here's the kicker though, compass ranges from 11 degrees to 317 degrees and must have channels are at 11, 187, and 317



I would bet a CM 4221 4bay bowtie would work fine. The channels 2 miles away will likely be received regardless of the antenna direction.


The CM 4221 will often easily receive stations up to 60° apart (I am actually using one to receive stations ~130° apart). Aim the CM 4221 @344° N/NW.



The 4bay bowtie works better over a wider range of channels and is more forgiving of inprecise aiming than a yagi/Silver Sensor.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by PhilJSmith67_
> *It would make sense to start a topic under HDTV Hardware instead of this market-oriented Local HDTV Info and Reception forum.*



Not really.


It's impossible to make blanket antenna comparisons (unless you're comparing TERK antennas to all others







). Antenna performance varies greatly, depending on where you live and the channels and bands (VHF or UHF or both) being used in your area.


IMO, the moderators have rightly made antenna discussion a local info and reception topic.


----------



## wad06

Thank you for the quick answers. I'll try both and see which works better.


My biggest concern with for the Silver Sensor is to point it out the window in the direction I need it to point would require putting the antenna on the other side of the house from the entertainment center. With the CM 4221, I can put it in the attic or just mount it outside and run the wire into the basement and up through the floor (hole is pre-existing).


After reading numerous threads, it seems the concensus is the Silver Sensor for indoor and the CM 4221 for outdoor.


Is there ever a situation where a Silver Sensor is a better choice than the CM 4221 (not counting aesthetics)?


Wad


----------



## thepicman




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by arxaw_
> *
> 
> IMO, the moderators have rightly made antenna discussion a local info and reception topic.*



Agreed, but my original post was about dividing the differing antennas up into smaller sections so that my rather obscure question about DB8s and 4228s is not mired in with 7 billion other posts.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by wad06_
> *... Is there ever a situation where a Silver Sensor is a better choice than the CM 4221 (not counting aesthetics)?*



Possibly, where a more directional antenna is needed for multipath rejection. However, as new tuners keep improving how they deal with multipath, this is becoming less of an issue in multipath-plagued areas.


In your case, you may want a slightly less directional antenna that won't require re-aiming it when you change channels. So the 4221 would probably be a better choice. But if the 4221 isn't available locally and the Silver Sensor is, you might try the SS in the attic first, then return it if it doesn't work well. The SS is not designed for installing outdoors and may not hold up well


----------



## CarDawg

Attic Antenna installed during home construction in highest point of attic for off Air HD reception with Dish Network receiver. I am able to receive only one station 50 percent of the time to view HD programing. What device should or can I use to boost the reception from this antenna?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by CarDawg_
> *Attic Antenna installed during home construction in highest point of attic for off Air HD reception with Dish Network receiver. I am able to receive only one station 50 percent of the time to view HD programing. What device should or can I use to boost the reception from this antenna?*



Well, you can start by telling us the brand, or taking a picture with a digital camera and posting that. For all we know, you have rabbit ears.


The best thing you could do is take that antenna outside. It may not fix your reception problems, but attics are tricky places to get a reliable signal from. It at least doubles your chances of getting a usable signal, and it might do better than that.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by CarDawg_
> *Attic Antenna installed during home construction in highest point of attic for off Air HD reception with Dish Network receiver. I am able to receive only one station 50 percent of the time to view HD programing.*



What type of roof do you have?

Do you have TechShield, or other Radiant Barrier roof decking installed under the roofing?

What type of siding does the house have?

Does it have a foil radiant barrier in the walls?

All of these things can affect indoor/attic antenna reception.


Also, what frequencies are the channels broadcasting on in your area? UHF? VHF? Both? This determines the type of antenna you need. See http://www.antennaweb.org for station frequency assignments.


----------



## mdputnam

Perusing this forum, when it comes to indoor antennas the Silver Sensor is tops, but looking at the Net Gain plots on hdtvprimer it looks like the DB-2 is a much better indoor antenna as far as gain and directivity. Other than looks and price is there anything else that puts the Silver sensor on top?


----------



## rwantennasat

Maybe some of you out there old enough remember uhf parabolic antennas? these were produced by channel master (6 and 7 ft) Delhi 5 ft.

Finco and antennacraft (basiclly the same one) 5+7 foot.

Anyhow there is no better antenna when it comes to getting the highest signal from the weakest stations. With all these flea powered stations on dtv we need better technology. I've been in the antenna business for 25 years I have used all kinds of uhf antennas out there. Right now the best i've seen is the winegard Prostar 9022 and 9032 for overall highest gain and directivity and the Cm 4228 8 bay bowtie which has lees gin but wider beamwidths. As far as all those so called high priced yagi's like Telves and Db they offer nothig more than a pretty antenna and alot higher price. I have tried some of these antennas in the toughest of areas. The CAtskill and Allegheny mountains of N.Y. state. These are tru test areas for antenna specs. Thes best antenna ive seen is the Winegards. The really pull things out of the mud. Anyhow Im in the process of redsigning the old parablic uhf antennas. i am working with an antenna distributor to design the feeds for me and i am putting together the reflector. these will be the ultimate of antennas for uhf. stay tuned to this channel for more updates. we are currently in the design stage. Anyone with questions can e-mail me directly at: [email protected] 

Rich Wertman

R.W. Antenna Service Inc.

Lockport,N.Y.


----------



## SI67

If I wanted to try using more than one antenna for HD (one indoor, the other possibly outdoors) because of different required directions, do I need to use a switch, or can I just run both inputs "backwards" through a splitter?


Steve

Sunnyvale, SI


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> As far as all those so called high priced yagi's like Telves and Db they offer nothig more than a pretty antenna and alot higher price. I have tried some of these antennas in the toughest of areas. The CAtskill and Allegheny mountains of N.Y. state. These are tru test areas for antenna specs. Thes best antenna ive seen is the Winegards.



rwantennasat,


I've done extensive comparison b/w the Winegard PR9032 and the Televes DAT 75 and I'll have to disagree with you here. The 9032 is a good antenna especially for the price but the Televes beats it consistently up and down the uhf spectrum in long distance reception.


I'll be interested to see your proposed new parabolic antennas.


One criticism of the parabolics is they're prone to multipath which is a bane to digital reception. The relatively low front to back ratio can also be problematic but improved by screening the dish. The 5th generation chip due out soon is supposed to improve reception in multipath prone areas so maybe the dish designs will become more attractive. Of course, wind load and weight are major considerations as well.


----------



## bec

I've searched the thread but could not find a specific answer to this question. I have a UHF and a VHF antenna going through a CM 7777. The mast is grounded. Do I still need to install a grounding block, and if so where should it go?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Do I still need to install a grounding block, and if so where should it go?



Yes, right before the coax enters the house is ideal.


----------



## bec




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *Yes, right before the coax enters the house is ideal.*



Thanks for the reply. However, doesn't the coax carry voltage to the pre-amp and won't this short the static discharge block?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> However, doesn't the coax carry voltage to the pre-amp and won't this short the static discharge block?



No. Only the shield is grounded when you run the coax through the grounding block.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mdputnam_
> *... Other than looks and price is there anything else that puts the Silver sensor on top?*



The Silver Sensor is more directional than the DB2. Some people need a directional antenna to block multipath. Others don't. For people with stations in different directions and no MP problems, a less directional antenna like the DB2 or CM 4221 may be a better choice, because it might get all their stations without reaiming the antenna every time they change channels.


There is no "top" antenna. The best antenna for you depends on station frequencies being used, distance, transmitter power, location & height and terrain. The best antenna for you may be completely different than for someone in another town, or even for your next door neighbor.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by bec_
> *... I have a UHF and a VHF antenna going through a CM 7777. The mast is grounded. Do I still need to install a grounding block, and if so where should it go?*



As others stated, put the coax grounding block near the entrance point of the house. It will not short out your preamp power supply.


All antenna and coax grounds should connect to the main electrical power ground source for your house. This is often a ground rod near the electric meter. In some areas (but only where allowed by local codes), the power may be grounded to a metal cold water pipe.


If you used a separate ground rod for the antenna mast, a large gauge ground wire should be connected between this rod and the main power ground source. This is called "bonding" and will reduce the possiblility of equipment damage due to differences in voltage potential between two ground sources.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by SI67_
> *If I wanted to try using more than one antenna for HD (one indoor, the other possibly outdoors) because of different required directions, do I need to use a switch, or can I just run both inputs "backwards" through a splitter?*



Results are usually a crap shoot, but try connecting both antenna coaxes to the "outputs" of a Hybrid Splitter/Combiner , then run a single RG6 from the splitter/combiner's "input" to the TV or tuner. This may work perfectly, or it may kill some or all of your reception. More often than not, combining may cause varying or intermittent reception problems.


If it doesn't work, try reversing the wires on one of the antenna's 300/75 ohm matching transformer (balun).


If still no luck, the best choice for using two antennas is an A/B switch. Remote controlled A/B switches work well for this.


----------



## mdputnam




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by arxaw_
> *
> 
> If you used a separate ground rod for the antenna mast, a large gauge ground wire should be connected between this rod and the main power ground source. This is called "bonding" and will reduce the possiblility of equipment damage due to differences in voltage potential between two ground sources.*



Uh now I'm confused. The coax cable and the business part of the antenna are attached to the house electrical system through the receiver, and so the coax shield should be grounded to the house electric system to avoid ground loops. The antenna mast is electrically isolated from the business end of the TV antenna and coax (otherwise the mast would be part of the antenna which would not be a good thing). Since the mast is isolated from the house electrical system under normal conditions it should not develop a ground loop using a different ground. That's how a installer explained it to me, is he wrong or did I misunderstand him?


----------



## arxaw

What installer told you this? Satellite TV?


Read the literature that comes with every outdoor antenna, it tells you to bond BOTH coax shield and antenna mast to the main electrical power ground. There is usually a diagram included showing both items grounded to the same common ground.


It is also against national electric code (NEC) to not bond all grounds electrically to the same source for: antennas, satellite, cable TV and telephone.


----------



## SI67

A friend of mine says he recalls seeing rigid 75-ohm coax cable connectors that are several inches long and would be inserted through a wall, leaving the threaded female connector end sticking out on either side. They'd be just like the common cable couplers that are are about an inch, just much longer. Now that I think about it, I'm a little dubious because there would need to be a number of different lengths to accommodate various wall thicknesses. He is certain he has seen them somewhere, but now that he and I could both use such a thing, we can't find a shred of information. Has anyone heard of of these things?


I know about feed-through bushings (available in black or white), of course, but was hoping to avoid having to acquire the tools to do my own cutting and termination.


Steve

Sunnyvale


----------



## cpcat

I've never seen what you describe but you could accomplish the same thing by using two wall plates and running a short length of coax between them inside the wall. You'd have to put the plates at slightly different heights on the wall so they wouldn't be directly opposite one another but it should work fine. You could use a preterminated 1m cable and just bunch up the excess inside the wall. I wouldn't hesitate to terminate either, it's really not difficult. Screw-on terminations are available if you don't want to fool with crimping.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *... Screw-on terminations are available if you don't want to fool with crimping.*



Some people on this forum claim that the screw-on RG6 connectors are no good, but I've used them a few times when I didn't have crimping tools available, and they've always worked well.


----------



## tivoboy

Well, after reading 24 pages of post, I still have my question.

I am getting good signal on my new 4228 pointed in one direction, but now think that I might do to put up a second antenna in the opposite direction to get some stations that are coming from other areas.


If I put it up near the first antenna, is there some soft of UHF combiner that I can use in order to re-use or continue to use the RG6 that I have running to the house? I would rather not run another line, and would love to just combine these signals.


thanks

tb


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by tivoboy_
> *... If I put it up near the first antenna, is there some soft of UHF combiner that I can use in order to re-use or continue to use the RG6 that I have running to the house?*



You can try combining the two antennas, using a hybrid splitter/combiner like this one from Radio Shaft :










Connect the 2 antenna inputs to "Set 1" & "Set 2" on the splitter/combiner. Run a single RG6 to the tuner, from the connector marked "INPUT".


Combining 2 antennas is a crap shoot, and frequently causes problems with some channels, or sometimes kills all your channels. If you have problems, try reversing the flat wire balun leads on one of the antennas, to see if reception improves. If no improvement, you'll need to run 2 coax leads and connect them to an A/B switch to change antennas when you want to watch the ones from a different direction. RatShaft also has remote controlled A/B switches for about 35 bucks.


----------



## AcuraCL




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by tivoboy_
> *Well, after reading 24 pages of post, I still have my question.
> 
> I am getting good signal on my new 4228 pointed in one direction, but now think that I might do to put up a second antenna in the opposite direction to get some stations that are coming from other areas....*



And if that fails, the obvious solution is a rotor ....


----------



## haidaovcf

Hi everyone,


I live just around 9-10 miles away from the broadcasting towers and using an outdoor atenna with my LG LST4200A and only can get the signal to the 50%-55%.


Does anyone have any suggestion about any other atennas, preamp, etc... that may help to get more signal strenght?


Thanks!


----------



## dlam

I currently have a Pioneer HDTV with cox basic cable (not digital) and Directv for international package.


I am thinking about buying the LG LST-3510 HD set top box with DVD to capture local HD. Centreville is about 25miles to all the local station. Has anyone had good experiences with an indoor antenna like Gemini ZHDTV1 HDTV-UHF in the area? I rather not deal with an attic or outdoor antenna if I can help it. Will the fact that Centreville is on the flight path for Dulles affect reception?


The only thing I will be watching on HD is Redskins games therefore I don't want to spend the extra money for Cox HD. I have also heard a lot of good things with a direct DVI to DVI from the DVD player to the HDTV. Is it a better picture than just the component video connection?


Thanks for your help.


Dave


----------



## mws6468

If I want to better educate myself on antenna installation, are there "good" books, magazines out there that are up to date? Also does one need to be a cert electrician, or call one when it comes to the grounding issues? I would assume not, since most people are DIY installers.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by haidaovcf_
> *I live just around 9-10 miles away from the broadcasting towers and using an outdoor atenna with my LG LST4200A and only can get the signal to the 50%-55%.
> *



"Outdoor antenna" tells us exactly nothing about what kind of antenna you have. There are as many different types of outdoor antenna as you can imagine. Please post a picture or model number so we can take a better stab at what the problem might be.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mws6468_
> *If I want to better educate myself on antenna installation, are there "good" books, magazines out there that are up to date? Also does one need to be a cert electrician, or call one when it comes to the grounding issues? I would assume not, since most people are DIY installers.*



Most antenna installation is not learned from books. It's learned by putting a few up. If you're a generally handy person, you can figure out most of it without much trouble. I'm generally not handy, yet managed to install a Winegard HD7084-P on my roof using a chimney mount (+guy wires) secure enough to survive 75mph winds.


I'd guess that most certified electricians would have no clue how to ground an antenna. There are several threads on this board that list detailed requirements for proper grounding.


----------



## bre30127

Ok... I just got an HDTV and i'm going to have to get an antenna. My question is- How do I know where to point it? What do I point it towards?


Also, what antenna do you recommend? I don't really want to put it on my roof but I may have to. I heard about the squareshooter but I'm not sure if it's actually good.


Thanks


----------



## sregener

 www.antennaweb.org is a great place to start.


Check your local market's thread for more information on stations and what people are using.


Generic antenna questions belong in the antenna discussion thread stuck at the top of this forum.


----------



## snoopy123

I've just received my T351 HDTV receiver and I'm trying to get reception via a Silver Sensor Digital HDTV antenna. When I plug the antenna into the coax input on the receiver I get the message "no signal". When I go into the menuing system on the T351 to signal strength I get 0 bars. I live in the city of Chicago and am 2 miles from the sears tower (where I understand that the broadcast is coming from). The antenna is an indoor antenna and I have tried moving it around thru out my condo without getting any bars on my signal strength.


So, I'm looking for suggestions. I could understand if I were only getting a few bars that the signal was weak but it seems suprising that I would get no signal whatsoever.


Does this mean that my receiver is DOA or is it possible that with an indoor antenna I am really getting no HDTV signal at all?


Thanks in advance!!


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by snoopy123_
> *I've just received my T351 HDTV receiver and I'm trying to get reception via a Silver Sensor Digital HDTV antenna. When I plug the antenna into the coax input on the receiver I get the message "no signal". When I go into the menuing system on the T351 to signal strength I get 0 bars.*



Have you done a channel scan?


----------



## cpcat

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by mws6468

If I want to better educate myself on antenna installation, are there "good" books, magazines out there that are up to date? Also does one need to be a cert electrician, or call one when it comes to the grounding issues? I would assume not, since most people are DIY installers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Here is a useful guide to some of the basics: http://www.channelmaster.com/pdf/AntInstallGuide.pdf


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by snoopy123_
> *I've just received my T351 HDTV receiver and I'm trying to get reception via a Silver Sensor Digital HDTV antenna. When I plug the antenna into the coax input on the receiver I get the message "no signal". When I go into the menuing system on the T351 to signal strength I get 0 bars. I live in the city of Chicago and am 2 miles from the sears tower (where I understand that the broadcast is coming from). The antenna is an indoor antenna and I have tried moving it around thru out my condo without getting any bars on my signal strength.
> 
> 
> So, I'm looking for suggestions. I could understand if I were only getting a few bars that the signal was weak but it seems suprising that I would get no signal whatsoever.
> 
> 
> Does this mean that my receiver is DOA or is it possible that with an indoor antenna I am really getting no HDTV signal at all?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance!!*



A good diagnostic tool in your situation would be to hook the antenna up to a small portable tv and check local analog signals like 2,5,7,9,20,26,32,38,44,60,and 66.If most are watchable with little snow,and minimal ghosting(multiple images) then you should have at least some signal showing up on the DT side.If not,the box may be bad.


----------



## bobbehr

Hey All,

I'm located in South Haven MI. which is on the lake approx. between Holland and St.Joe. I will be putting up an antenna w/ rotor and pre-amp for HDTV this fall.I somewhat fall on the outer edges of the G.R., South Bend,IN., and Chicago markets

Since all but three of the stations I want are UHF,the exceptions being WWMT 2,WOOD 7,do I want a huge 12ft deep fringe comboUHF/VHF antenna? Or would I be better off with 1 or 2 stacked deep fringe UHF ones on a rotor combined with a seperate VHF one fixed at those two stations mentioned?

To spin that 12fter around in the winter not to mention the installation involved would'nt seem to make sense. thanks


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by bobbehr_
> *Hey All,
> 
> I'm located in South Haven MI. which is on the lake approx. between Holland and St.Joe. I will be putting up an antenna w/ rotor and pre-amp for HDTV this fall.I somewhat fall on the outer edges of the G.R., South Bend,IN., and Chicago markets
> 
> Since all but three of the stations I want are UHF,the exceptions being WWMT 2,WOOD 7,do I want a huge 12ft deep fringe comboUHF/VHF antenna? Or would I be better off with 1 or 2 stacked deep fringe UHF ones on a rotor combined with a seperate VHF one fixed at those two stations mentioned?
> 
> To spin that 12fter around in the winter not to mention the installation involved would'nt seem to make sense. thanks*



A good all-around performing setup in your situation would be a CM4228 8-bay for UHF,and a Winegard 5030 mounted 3ft below that for VHF.CM9521 rotor and CM7777 preamp and you're good to go.The overall windload is not that great,so the masting/support structure needn't be too elaborate or expensive.At some point down the road you WILL want to move the VHF.


All the above can be purchased at www.warrenelectronics.com


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by bobbehr_
> *I will be putting up an antenna w/ rotor and pre-amp for HDTV this fall.I somewhat fall on the outer edges of the G.R., South Bend,IN., and Chicago markets... To spin that 12fter around in the winter not to mention the installation involved would'nt seem to make sense. thanks*



You've got to decide how important those VHF digitals are to you. Frankly, I wouldn't count on WBBM out of Chicago - read the Chicago thread for a long history of people with problems much closer than you are. That said, the UHF stations from Chicago might come in just fine because of the lake. I'd get just a UHF antenna and a good preamplifier (from Winegard or Channel Master) and see what you can get. You'll probably pick up the VHF digital on channel 7, even with a UHF-only antenna (though not with a Channel Master UHF-only preamplifier, they don't pass VHF.) Then you can decide whether it's worthwhile to add a VHF antenna for the few digitals that you might want (use a Channel Master #0549, about $10, if you combine two antennas together) if they're not coming in.


Again, don't count on WBBM-DT until the analog shutoff.


----------



## Nitewatchman

Bobbehr,


I would tend to agree with Max HD's recommendation.


I would not count on receiving VHF stations(even hi-VHF 7-13) with a UHF only antenna. It can work if there is a strong enough signal present, but so will a coat hanger.


You'll probably get better info/reports in the local threads that pertain to the markets you mention, I would suspect however that a small-Meduim size VHF/UHF combo antenna(RS VU-90, CM3016, Winegard PR5646 would be on the small side, you might want to go a step up from that) may work well for you Grand-rapids stations. I looked on the map, and looks like you would be about 25~30 miles or so from WWMT+WOOD's tower(s). I didn't check the other Grand rapids area Stations tower locations, don't know if they are near WWMT/WOOD. Looks like you are about 60 miles or so from South Bend, and 80 miles or so across the lake to Chicago.


Coverage area map(28dbu contour) for WWMT-DT 2 :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DT604965.html 


Hopefully, WBBM 2 analog(or WLS analog 7 for your WOOD-DT 7 reception) won't noise things up too much off the back side of the antenna, for this reason, it might especially be a good idea to go with a VHF antenna with decent directivity and forward gain, such as the winegard 5030 Max HD mentioned.


I also looked at the coverage area maps for some of the Chicago/South bend stations. It looks like you would generally be well outside the coverage area for Chicago, although, as Srenger mentioned since you're on the lake, if not all the time, with a decent antenna setup you'll probably see them quite often via a bit of enhanced signal propagation(tropo scatter), and a nice, hi-gain antenna setup w/rotor wouldn't hurt - but I certianly would not count on receiving chicago at all times.


As a typical example - WGN-DT 19 Chicago predicted coverage area map (41dbu contour ) from FCC site:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DT968641.html 


South Bend might be doable with a good antenna, but would be fringe" area, and you look to be a bit beyond the predicted coverage area for South bend stations. For example, Follows is link to predicted coverage area(41 dbu contour) for WNDU-DT 42, South bend:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DT429535.html 


Srenger,


As bobbehr noted, WWMT-DT, Kalmazoo-Grand Rapids Transmits on RF channel 2. They are currently licensed on 2 for 6.9KW ERP with non-directional transmitting antenna.


WWMT analog broadcasts on Channel 3 at 100KW ERP. Making WBBM-DT 3 reception from bobbehr's location likely impossible, or very very difficult(except during periods of "extremely" enhanced propagation of signals from Chicago "over the lake") in any event.


For that matter, I would expect reception of chigago stations given any co-channel chicago/Grand Rapids circumstance(regardless of where they are on the dial), to be generally difficult to impossible from within the station's coverage area, even after analog shut off.


----------



## Hans Gruber

I use a Radio Shack TV500 VHF/UHF/FM antenna to view HDTV. I have a Zenith HDV420 terrestrial receiver. The Radio Shack antenna sits behind the couch on a picture window.


I am approximately 11 miles from the TV towers atop Queen Anne hill in Seattle. I can walk outside and se them with an unobstructed view.


Size does not matter in my case. However. The antenna suffers from shawdowing if I raise my hand or walk in front of the TV at times. I suggest mounting your antenna in the attic. This is my next step. I have been using the Zenith HDV420 for about 1 year. I have a second generation Mitsubishi RPTV 65" with component connections only. This set is one step below diamond vision which had an RGB connection as well.


My only complaint is that Seattle stations do not broadcast in Dolby 5.1. The ABC station (KOMO) did Monday night football and some Sunday night movies in Dolby 5.1 last season. This season Monday night football has been in dolby pro logic only.


I anybody is receiving dolby 5.1 please correct me. I run through a denon receiver with auto signal detection. The HD receiver still says Dolby Digital on all broadcasts though.


With regards to the antenna, higher is definately better. I have a friend who lives 3 miles further from the TV towers and had to purchase the old rooftop monster antenna. I will get the model number of the rooftop antenna and post for everyone.


One final note. The radio shack TV500 is probably 7 years old and has since been discontinued I'm sure.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *... I'd get just a UHF antenna and a good preamplifier (from Winegard or Channel Master) ..... Then you can decide whether it's worthwhile to add a VHF antenna for the few digitals that you might want (use a Channel Master #0549, about $10, if you combine two antennas together)*



I also think it's a good idea to use a good dedicated UHF antenna and add the VHF later if desired.


If you get a Channel Master CM 7777 VHF/UHF preamp , you won't need the CM #0549 combiner. The 7777 has separate V/U inputs and a built in combiner, for combining separate VHF/UHF antennas onto one downlead.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Nitewatchman_
> *As bobbehr noted, WWMT-DT, Kalmazoo-Grand Rapids Transmits on RF channel 2. They are currently licensed on 2 for 6.9KW ERP with non-directional transmitting antenna. [...]
> 
> 
> For that matter, I would expect reception of chigago stations given any co-channel chicago/Grand Rapids circumstance(regardless of where they are on the dial), to be generally difficult to impossible from within the station's coverage area, even after analog shut off.*



Ah, I missed that one. And you're right about co-channel problems.


I'd still get as large a VHF/UHF combo as you can, even if you can "get by" with less. There's almost no harm in having more gain than you need, but there's a lot of harm in having a little less than you need. FWIW, I highly recommend the Winegard HD8200P for people who don't need absolute perfection from the UHF side (it's very good, but a hair under the best.)


For the best long-distance UHF (which also does great on hi-VHF inside of 60 miles) read my review: http://www.geocities.com/figbert/91xg.html


----------



## cansatfan

I live between the HD OTA broadcast locations in Washington State and BC, almost directly North/South. I'd rather not use a rotor. What kind of performance can I expect if I mount two antennas back to back?


----------



## arxaw

Roughly, what's the distance between you and the transmitter sites you want to receive? Are the stations VHF, UHF or both?


----------



## rll

I want to try an HD OTA antenna. I have read that this model is quite good. I want something that naturally works but is also not an eye sore or overly large.The station is about 45 miles from me and the terrain is as flat as the proverbial pancake. Any comments and/or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thank you in advance.


----------



## cansatfan

arxaw; Thanks for the reply. I'm between 30-50 miles on the south side and less than 20 on the north side. There are no obstructions and very few high rise buildings in my neighborhood. I am hoping to get both UHF and VHF signals although I may use a separate antennae for UHF.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by rll_
> *I want to try an HD OTA antenna. I have read that [the SquareShooter] is quite good. I want something that naturally works but is also not an eye sore or overly large.The station is about 45 miles from me and the terrain is as flat as the proverbial pancake.*



Normally, I wouldn't recommend a SquareShooter at 45 miles, but if the terrain really is flat and you have no blockage, it'll probably work for high powered (over 100kw ERP) UHF digitals.


Generally, the bigger the antenna, the better the reception. What you want is to defeat the laws of physics by getting a tiny antenna that performs like a large one. Sorry, can't happen. But with digital reception, you don't need a perfect signal, just "good enough" for the tuner to figure out the errors and correct them. And the SS1000 might be "good enough" in your case, but there's no way to know for sure until you try it.


----------



## rll

sregener,

I am in the northwestern area of minnesota, almost to the ND border. I just read that this antenna works. Is there something else you would also recommend to try?

Thanks.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by rll_
> *I am in the northwestern area of minnesota, almost to the ND border. I just read that this antenna works. Is there something else you would also recommend to try?*



At 45 miles, I'd recommend an AntennasDirect DB8. If you want to save a couple of bucks, the Channel Master 4228 or Winegard PR-8800 would be adequate choices. None of these look like a "normal" antenna, but they perform great.


The SquareShooter is designed more for use in an urban environment where you're likely to have multipath. It works great for people close in to major cities, but I've yet to hear good things about it's long-range potential.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *... the Channel Master 4228 or Winegard PR-8800 would be adequate choices. None of these look like a "normal" antenna, but they perform great.*



It depends on what your definition of "normal" is. I've seen them for years, in towns that have predominantly UHF TV ( example )


----------



## mdputnam

With my current setup I reliably receive distant Los Angles UHF stations (106 miles) and local San Diego UHF stations (2.5 miles) I currently use a Radio Shack amp/preamplifier with a variable gain pot on the amplifier section. Unfortunately, if you turn the gain down enough for the local stations you get dropouts on the distant stations. Crank it up for the distant stations and the locals are overloaded. Is there a quality amp/preamp that is more immune to overload with better than Radio Shack's 4.5 dB noise figure?


----------



## SI67

I am under the impression that an OTA HD broadcast can be better than the same program received via satellite or cable HD, but I'd like to know why that is. An antenna package I saw said something about receiving "true 1080i" broadcasts or something on that order. I believe I have a passable understanding of 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i. So why is OTA better, or sometimes better, or potentially better than satellite or cable HD? I checked the HDTV FAQ here first but didn't find anything.


Steve

Sunnyvale, CA


----------



## PhilJSmith67

Some cable systems apply additional MPEG compression to the OTA streams when they relay them on cable, so that they can cram a few more subchannels into their available spectrum.


This practice varies from system to system, however. My local Comcast provider does not appear to be playing the "compress and cram" game, and simply pairs up two OTA streams per physical 6 MHz channel allocation. Without me going into a long explanation on why, I'll just state that a single 6 MHz channel on cable has exactly twice the bandwidth of a 6 MHz channel over-the-air. (For more info, refer to 256QAM vs. 8VSB modulation.) Thus, the only information that is getting replaced when the OTA stations are put on cable is the PSIP and PID info.


One big factor has to do with your local provider's equipment quality. Mine has good enough equipment that they are able to utilize the entire available spectrum, from channel 2 up through 125. Some providers have loads of cabling and switches that can't handle frequencies that high, so they're forced to jam more subchannels into 2 through 95, or perhaps less. In those cases, it's more cost-effective for the provider to play the compress-and-cram game instead of sending out trucks with spools of cable and equipment to update the entire service area.


For what cable costs, I think that's a lousy choice on the provider's part, but some are buying a few years time by doing just that. Basically, what these providers are doing is collecting the additional revenue for adding HD, but in return for that money, they're providing a substandard product.


One thing you can do is contact the local cable provider and ask. If they tell you that they do not re-compress, or add additional compression, to local digital stations like CBS, ABC, NBC, PBS and Fox, then they will proudly tell you (although they might have to get back to you on that). If they refuse to answer or don't know, then there is a strong chance that anyone with the HD cable service is not getting the best picture possible.


As for satellite, I honestly don't know if they play games with the HD signals. The quality from Voom is supposedly good, but I haven't witnessed it myself.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mdputnam_
> *... Crank it up for the distant stations and the locals are overloaded. Is there a quality amp/preamp that is more immune to overload with better than Radio Shack's 4.5 dB noise figure?*



The excess noise may be your problem. I would try a preamp like Channel Master CM 7775 or 7777, or a Winegard or BlonderTongue. They have much lower noise than the RatShack amps.


----------



## dkyork

I'm about to buy an antenna another member recommended. Just wanted to make sure there wasn't anything better out there. I'm 28 miles from 9 digital channels w/i 195 and 200 degrees. The D* tech installed a GS220 Wineguard, which only picks up like 3 or 4 and 3 of them are real spotty. It's horrible basically. It's mounted 30 foot high on my house roof. We have tall skinny trees surrounding our house. I have read and was told the 4228 is the way to go. Can you guys concur? Thanks. Dunno if it matters, but I have the DTC210 RCA HD STB. Freq range is 16 to 50.


Dale


----------



## cmm1fl

Here's my question. What type of meter is good to locate off air locals signal?


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dkyork_
> *... I'm 28 miles from 9 digital channels w/i 195 and 200 degrees. The D* tech installed a GS220 Wineguard, which only picks up like 3 or 4 and 3 of them are real spotty. It's horrible basically. It's mounted 30 foot high on my house roof. We have tall skinny trees surrounding our house. I have read and was told the 4228 is the way to go.*



At only 28 miles out, a smaller CM 4221 may work just as well as the 4228.


The antenna you currently have is designed for motorhome/RV use......


----------



## dkyork




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by arxaw_
> *At only 28 miles out, a smaller CM 4221 may work just as well as the 4228.
> 
> 
> The antenna you currently have is designed for motorhome/RV use......*



Thanks Arxaw. I see a 3020 at Lowes near my house. I noticed the 4221 is the same as the 3021, but not sure if the 3020 is the same as those two. Is there such thing as too much power? If not, I might just get the 4228 and not waste any more time. Thanks again. Is the Winegard gs2200 really for motorhome, RV use?


Dale


Edit:Seems the 3020 is overkill. I called D* back and told them to come back out and try again. They're coming back Saturday morning with a different antenna. If that doesn't work, 4228 it is.


----------



## mws6468

Has anyone tried mounting an antenna on the ceiling of a room? If so, what would be "recommended" for this, as far as models go? Obviously I need a low profile antenna, like a CM3014. Any suggestions?


----------



## arxaw

I've seen pictures of a Zenith/Gemini/Philips Silver Sensor mounted from the ceiling. They're relatively small and could be hung with 2 or 3 pieces of fishing line or other string. The tabletop stand can be removed. The silver sensor can be painted to match the ceiling color.


If all your stations are UHF, relatively strong power and roughly in the same direction, this would probably work. All bets are off though, if your house/building exterior has metal siding or foil-backed wall or ceiling insulation or foil radiant barrier roof decking.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dkyork_
> *Is there such thing as too much power? If not, I might just get the 4228 and not waste any more time.*



No. There is such a thing as too much directionality. The 4228 can be very directional, meaning it may not even be able to cover your 5 degree spread. The higher the gain, the more directional an antenna becomes. Generally, you want to find the point where your gain is high enough, but the directionality isn't too tight. I'd go with the 4-bay, myself, in your situation. At 20-30 miles, gain usually isn't the issue.


----------



## arxaw

sregener is correct.


The 4228 is very directional and is often harder to aim than the somewhat multidirectional 4221 (aka 3021 - not 3020). The 4228 is also twice as big and may require more support in high winds than the 4221.


At 28 miles, you shouldn't need the gain of the 4228, either. But you obviously need a _different_ antenna than the batwing contraption you currently have.


----------



## mws6468




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by arxaw_
> *I've seen pictures of a Zenith/Gemini/Philips Silver Sensor mounted from the ceiling. They're relatively small and could be hung with 2 or 3 pieces of fishing line or other string. The tabletop stand can be removed. The silver sensor can be painted to match the ceiling color.
> 
> 
> If all your stations are UHF, relatively strong power and roughly in the same direction, this would probably work. All bets are off though, if your house/building exterior has metal siding or foil-backed wall or ceiling insulation or foil radiant barrier roof decking.*



I doubt my apt bldg has any "extra" insulation like that. It does however have "Hardy Plank" siding, a reinforced cement material. I have tried numerous products at my location and am having no luck. Thought about trying a larger ant mounted to the ceiling (wife even ok'd it







) Starting to look for a house in the area, so i can put up exterior ant.


----------



## dkyork




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by arxaw_
> *sregener is correct.
> 
> 
> The 4228 is very directional and is often harder to aim than the somewhat multidirectional 4221 (aka 3021 - not 3020). The 4228 is also twice as big and may require more support in high winds than the 4221.
> 
> 
> At 28 miles, you shouldn't need the gain of the 4228, either. But you obviously need a different antenna than the batwing contraption you currently have.*



Lol, yeah the batwing probably works good as a spoiler on a car though. D* coming Saturday to try again, if not I'll try the 4221 first and then the 4228.


thanks guys.


Dale


----------



## rwantennasat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *rwantennasat,
> 
> 
> I've done extensive comparison b/w the Winegard PR9032 and the Televes DAT 75 and I'll have to disagree with you here. The 9032 is a good antenna especially for the price but the Televes beats it consistently up and down the uhf spectrum in long distance reception.I HAVE TESTED THE TELVES ANTENNAS AND I CANNOT SEE WHERE THEY ARE COMMING UP WITH THEY'RE ADVERTISED GAIN SPECS. I HAVE COMPARED THE LARGEST TELVES AGAINST THE PR-9032 WINEGARD AND HAVE SEEN VERY SIMILAR RESULTS BY THE EYE. I ALSO HOOKED BOTH UP TO MY DIGITAL FSM AND SEEN SIMILAR GAIN FACTORS. I CANNOT JUSTIFY SPENDING THE $$ THAT THESE SO CALLED SUPERIOR DESINGNERS OF YAGIS ARE ASKING TO GET THE SAME RESULTS. IF 1 DB GAIN OF DIFFERENCE IS WHAT WERE TALKING ABOUT IT WOULD BE BETTER TO GET A GOOD PREAMP.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be interested to see your proposed new parabolic antennas.
> 
> 
> One criticism of the parabolics is they're prone to multipath which is a bane to digital reception. The relatively low front to back ratio can also be problematic but improved by screening the dish.IM NOT SURE WHERE YOUR GETTING YOUR F to b RATIOS ON PARABOLICS? I HAVE ALL THE SPEC SHEETS AND HAVE FOUND THE PARABOLICS TO HAVE VERY HIGH FRONT TO BACK RATIOS?? THIS IS WITHOUT SCREENING. I USE A CHANNEL MASTER 4251 7 FOOTER AT 72 FT AND HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED ANY MULTIPATHING. I HAVE 3 DTV'S WITHIN 7 MILES AND NUMEROUS OTHERS ON A REGULAR OCCURENCE OUT TO 75 MILES. IM USING A ZENITH HDV-420 STB. IM IN WESTERN NEW YORK NEAR BUFFALO AND CAN SEE ROCHESTER AND TORONTO DTVS THAT ARE RUNNING UNDER 1000 WATTS OUTPUT. The 5th generation chip due out soon is supposed to improve reception in multipath prone areas so maybe the dish designs will become more attractive. Of course, wind load and weight are major considerations as well.I AGREE ON WINDLOADING THATS WHY I RECCOMEND ONLY A FIVE FOOT MODEL IN REGULAR SITUATIONS AND 7 FT MODELS BEING EXCLUSIVE TO THEY'RE OWN TRIPOD OR TOWER.*


----------



## calvinb

Okay I have decided that I need a pre-amp in order to boost the signal I am getting off my CM 4228. One of my local DT stations is about 40 miles away and my HD picture from it is less than ideal. Currently my antenna is in the attic with a 100" run of RG6 into the back of the HD STB (Samsung 360). My question is: where do I put the pre-amp? I have no power outlet in the attic next to my antenna. Can I put it next to the HD STB 100' away from the antenna? Or am I not doing myself any favors? Currently the signal strength on the station in question is about 45% but it fluctuates. Right now my first choice for pre-amp is the CM 7777. Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance.


----------



## mws6468




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by calvinb_
> *Okay I have decided that I need a pre-amp in order to boost the signal I am getting off my CM 4228. One of my local DT stations is about 40 miles away and my HD picture from it is less than ideal. Currently my antenna is in the attic with a 100" run of RG6 into the back of the HD STB (Samsung 360). My question is: where do I put the pre-amp? I have no power outlet in the attic next to my antenna. Can I put it next to the HD STB 100' away from the antenna? Or am I not doing myself any favors? Currently the signal strength on the station in question is about 45% but it fluctuates. Right now my first choice for pre-amp is the CM 7777. Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance.*



You install the preamp at the antenna and the power supply close to the TV, no need for an outlet in the attic. Make sure if you are using any splitters you put them after the power supply.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by rwantennasat_
> *I HAVE TESTED THE TELVES ANTENNAS AND I CANNOT SEE WHERE THEY ARE COMMING UP WITH THEY'RE ADVERTISED GAIN SPECS. I HAVE COMPARED THE LARGEST TELVES AGAINST THE PR-9032 WINEGARD AND HAVE SEEN VERY SIMILAR RESULTS BY THE EYE. I ALSO HOOKED BOTH UP TO MY DIGITAL FSM AND SEEN SIMILAR GAIN FACTORS. I CANNOT JUSTIFY SPENDING THE $$ THAT THESE SO CALLED SUPERIOR DESINGNERS OF YAGIS ARE ASKING TO GET THE SAME RESULTS. IF 1 DB GAIN OF DIFFERENCE IS WHAT WERE TALKING ABOUT IT WOULD BE BETTER TO GET A GOOD PREAMP.*



If you already have a good preamplifier, you know that a preamplifier can't fix what isn't there. IOW, if you have 4db of gain and a 28db preamplifier, you will have a worse signal for digital reception than if you had 16db of gain and a 10db preamplifier. Preamps fix line loss, nothing more. They can't create signal where it isn't.


Where that 1db really makes a difference is right on the margin between a good and a bad signal. If you have stations that you can get with one antenna and can't with another in the same spot, then you can claim one antenna is better than the other *for that particular frequency over that particular terrain under those particular weather conditions.* There's no doubt that the DAT-75 and PR-9032 are close. But they're not equivalent and there are times when I would expect one to outdo the other, simply because their designs are different.


I'm not saying that a parabolic antenna can't do a good job. Maybe they can. The only one I've seen run through tests is GlennL's tests in southern California where the CM 7' parabolic did horribly compared to yagi-style antennas for digital reception with multipath. ( http://www.atechfabrication.com/test...st_results.htm )


----------



## RobWis

I live in a region where a second dish is required to receive local stations. He said if I want to be able to receive the locals from the additional satellite and from an off-air antenna simultaneously that I would need an "HD off-air antenna." He said the Terk clip on antenna I have up there now doesn't have enough strength to carry the signal when wired in conjunction with the second dish.


Is this correct? If so which antenna will I need...the Terk TV55 maybe??


Thanks guys


----------



## greywolf

Avoid all Terk OTA antennas. They are overpriced and underperforming except for the 30 series numbers. They are merely overpriced. The best antennas look like antennas. Look at Channel Master, Winegard, Antennas Direct, even Radio Shack. The Terk antennas that work decently are made by Winegard and upped 50% in price. Check out http://antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx for help in choosing an antenna.


----------



## dkyork




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by greywolf_
> *Avoid all Terk OTA antennas. They are overpriced and underperforming except for the 30 series numbers. They are merely overpriced. The best antennas look like antennas. Look at Channel Master, Winegard, Antennas Direct, even Radio Shack. The Terk antennas that work decently are made by Winegard and upped 50% in price. Check out http://antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx for help in choosing an antenna.*



Is it safe to mount a 4228 to the roof? The D* tech came by and said that the Winegard gs2200 was not going to cut it and instead of charging me, he sid he would say that I canceled. He suggest a 40 foot mast and mounting the 4228 on it, but would it be easier to mount the 4228 to the hardware already on the roof from the gs-2200? It's already about 36 foot up.


thanks,


Dale


----------



## greywolf

The 4228 is a very good UHF antenna.


----------



## lman12

I live in Central New Jersey, about equal distance from NYC and Philadelphia (65 miles each way). I would like to pick up the digital Hi-Def channels from each city. In addition, I would be interested in picking up the higher band VHF channels. What would be the best "Deep Fringe" antenna, CM 4228 or CM 3020, for me?


If someone in this forum can think of a better antenna than the two listed above, let me know.



I enjoy this forum.


lman12


----------



## beboram

My choices are


Wineguard HD -9065 or Channelmaster 4221.


1. The installer says they are both equivalent for reception - are they?


If Yes which one would visibly stick out less mounted on the roof top?


2. Which one is least affected by snow and ice build-up?


3. Least affected by wind? - My 'hood tends to get quite windy during the winters.


BTW I am about 30 miles NW of Washington DC.


You can see the antennas here:

http://fairfaxantenna.com/ffx921/TV_Antennas.html


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by lman12_
> *I live in Central New Jersey, about equal distance from NYC and Philadelphia (65 miles each way). I would like to pick up the digital Hi-Def channels from each city. In addition, I would be interested in picking up the higher band VHF channels. What would be the best "Deep Fringe" antenna, CM 4228 or CM 3020, for me?
> 
> 
> If someone in this forum can think of a better antenna than the two listed above, let me know.
> 
> 
> 
> I enjoy this forum.
> 
> 
> lman12*



The best combination for the distance involved would be seperate UHF/VHF antennas.

The CM4228 is a decent UHF antenna,but some others that come to mind would likely work better for the Philly DT channels above Ch60,such as the XG91 available domestically from Antennasdirect,and some models from the UK ( www.cpc.co.uk ) such as the Triax Unix100,Funke DC4591,and the Televes DAT-75 Wideband models.


Good upper VHF(high-band) antennas would be the Antennacraft or Winegard 10 element models available from Starkelectronic or Warrenelectronics dot coms.Or,if you want the best high-band antenna available on the planet,I have some coming in the near future.

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/UltraHighGain/ 


A CM 9521 rotor on a moderately sturdy mast will easily turn the above mentioned UHF/VHF antennas.The best preamp I've used for seperates is the CM 7777.


----------



## f13dfx

I live in Vancouver, BC, Canada which is 116 miles (line of sight) from Seattle, WA. Here are the channels broadcasting in HDTV that I want to pickup:


Seattle, WA - ABC (4) - CBS (7) - FOX (13) - NBC (5) - PBS (9) - upn (11) - wb (22)


Can someone recommend the best antenna or antenna combination for my location? Or am I a little too far away?


Thanks in advance!


----------



## greywolf

The curvature of the earth limits line of sight to about 60mi. You would need a heck of a tower.


----------



## f13dfx




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by greywolf_
> *The curvature of the earth limits line of sight to about 60mi. You would need a heck of a tower.*



Okay, I live in a two-storey house, so the antenna would be approximately 30 feet high. Only thing is that Richmond, BC is at sea level.


I do not know much about how VHF & UHF signals transmit, but do they mainly just go by "line of sight"?


I guess Bell Express Satellite would be the best for HDTV for me









Damn, that would cost me $50 Cdn./month. Not worth it right now for 14 channels (mostly USA networks, TSN & Rogers SportsNet).


----------



## greywolf

VHF will bend a little but UHF is very LoS. 30 ft won't nearly do it. You would pretty much need both transmitter and receiver to be on mountaintops plus a lot of luck..


----------



## firemantom26

I just bought the Samsung 26" HDTV (TX-P2675WHD)

• Built-in HD tuner • Widescreen

• A/V versatility



What is the best indoor antenna with a pre amp to buy?


----------



## Ssecca

Can Regular cable be used to get HD programing with a HD dtv sir-360 box..I have had regular cable here since I moved in and was wondering if it was worth running that over there to my set up??Or is off air the only way???TIA..


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by firemantom26_
> *...What is the best indoor antenna with a pre amp to buy?*



"Best" varies, depending on location and stations in your area (VHF/UHF or both). See the local thread for your particular location here .


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Ssecca_
> *Can Regular cable be used to get HD programing with a HD dtv sir-360 box..*



The SIR-TS360 will only receive DirecTV, OTA digital/analog and _analog-only_ cable channels.


----------



## GB Randy

I live 5.5 miles from the "antenna farm" in Green Bay, WI.


I installed a Terk 44 sat dish antenna and had marginal results on my TS360 HDTV box. I had drop outs and in some cases no reception.


I installed a Zenith GEMDTV-1 antenna. It is directional and I have it pointing directly at the antennas. Heck I can see them towering 2,000 feet into the air right by my house. I thought I was good to go....


My reception is worse! I do not get one channel at all and two others had drop outs all during the CHI / NYG football game.


What am I missing here? I have the unit mounted on the side of my house next to my dish....do I need to move it away from the side ofthe house? Away from the dish?


I have about 50 feet of cable from the antenna location to the set top box....


Any and all thoughts are welcome.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by GB Randy_
> *I installed a Terk 44 sat dish antenna and had marginal results on my TS360 HDTV box. I had drop outs and in some cases no reception.
> 
> 
> I installed a Zenith GEMDTV-1 antenna.*



Take both these overhyped antennas back to the store, give the clerk a piece of your mind about the junk they are, and pick up a Zenith Silver Sensor. It will outperform both by a mile, costs less, and has given lots of people success.


(Note: It can be hard to receive digital signals when you are in the shadow of the transmitter. The antenna is aimed for the horizon, and if you are far enough below that level, it can be hard to find much, if any, signal. You may have to try aiming in "non-intuitive" directions to pick up a reflection, and hope your receiver can handle multipath. You might want to try aiming any antenna you have *up* so it's pointing at the top of the tower, not the bottom.)


----------



## PhilJSmith67

GB Randy, at that distance (assuming clear line-of-sight), you should be able to get the DTV stations if all you had for an antenna was a couple feet of the RG6 center conductor exposed!


You might actually have too much signal. Have you tried an RF attenuator on the antenna line?


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by GB Randy_
> *I live 5.5 miles from the "antenna farm" .... I can see them towering 2,000 feet into the air right by my house. I thought I was good to go....*



Try tilting the antenna UP toward the top of the towers. Or at that close of a distance, try a simple indoor loop antenna. As others have said, you may have too much antenna.


----------



## rwantennasat




> _Originally posted by lman12_
> 
> *I live in Central New Jersey, about equal distance from NYC and Philadelphia (65 miles each way). I would like to pick up the digital Hi-Def channels from each city. In addition, I would be interested in picking up the higher band VHF channels. What would be the best "Deep Fringe" antenna, CM 4228 or CM 3020, for me?
> 
> 
> If someone in this forum can think of a better antenna than the two listed above, let me know.
> 
> 
> 
> I enjoy this forum.
> 
> 
> lman12 [/
> 
> 
> 
> First of all neither of those antennas are any good for high vhf channels.
> 
> if you only want uhf then a 4228 or better yet a winegard 9032. you will also need a good pream because these are quite a distance from you. i reccomend the ap-4800 by winegard. in fact i bought 100 + of these and my shop sells em cheaper than anywhere you can find! Now back to vhf high ch's if you want a really good all around i suggest a winegard pr7052 combo or a hd8200 or channel master 3671 with a preamp. you'll also need a rotor due to various dsirections. i would be glad to design a system for you. drop me an e-mail at:[email protected]
> 
> take care Rich*


----------



## rwantennasat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *If you already have a good preamplifier, you know that a preamplifier can't fix what isn't there. IOW, if you have 4db of gain and a 28db preamplifier, you will have a worse signal for digital reception than if you had 16db of gain and a 10db preamplifier. Preamps fix line loss, nothing more.
> 
> 
> Im not sure what school you went to regarding signal reception and the proper use of amplifiers that are mast mounted or distribution stlye amplifiers. My teaching and 25 years in business would say that DISTRIBUTION or post amplifiers are for increasing line loss. However, mast mounted Preamplifiers are to increase the incomming signal to increase the amount of S/N ratio to the tuner. The ideal choice is to use the lowest possible noise rated preamps to reduce increasing noise to the receiver.
> 
> This is especially true on UHF. I prefer Winegards design when it comes to uhf Preamps due to the fact they use a hemt design transistor which induces very little noise. Anyhow there have been numerous times in our business that a simple yagi or stacked yagi's simply would not provide a proper signal to a headend. After inserting a 20-29 db amplifier the signal was brought up to usable and was able to be distributed to 100-2000 sets in a commercial enviornment! This hold trure for those using a preamp at home.I watchj HDTV stations out to 75 miles with a 7 ft parabolic and a winegard 17 db uhf amp. If that was not there(the preamp) i would not see those channels. I've done it both ways and Preamped is best. A distribution amplifier does nothing more than to keep a steady amount of equal signal to all tv's on the system while also overcomming losses incurred by enourmous lengths of cable/feedline!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They can't create signal where it isn't.
> 
> 
> Where that 1db really makes a difference is right on the margin between a good and a bad signal. If you have stations that you can get with one antenna and can't with another in the same spot, then you can claim one antenna is better than the other *for that particular frequency over that particular terrain under those particular weather conditions.* There's no doubt that the DAT-75 and PR-9032 are close. But they're not equivalent and there are times when I would expect one to outdo the other, simply because their designs are different.
> 
> 
> I'm not saying that a parabolic antenna can't do a good job. Maybe they can. The only one I've seen run through tests is GlennL's tests in southern California where the CM 7' parabolic did horribly compared to yagi-style antennas for digital reception with multipath. ( http://
> 
> For more info...esults.htm )*


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> However, mast mounted Preamplifiers are to increase the incomming signal to increase the amount of S/N ratio to the tuner. The ideal choice is to use the lowest possible noise rated preamps to reduce increasing noise to the receiver.



Neither preamps nor distribution amps can "increase signal" or increase signal to noise ratio on an absolute basis. The best possible S/N ratio is right at the output of the antenna. The signal can only get worse from there no matter what you do to it. A perfect preamp would give you a S/N at the tuner that is equal to the S/N at the ouput of the antenna, perfectly compensating for line loss and adding zero noise. Obviously, this doesn't exist in the real world.


The Winegard AP-4800 is generally felt to be equivalent in performance to the CM 777x series. The advantage of one over the other isn't necessarily performance related, but feature related, i.e. if you want separate uhf/vhf 75 ohm inputs, you'll need the CM 7777. If you want a preamp that passes vhf, go with the Winegard.


----------



## Nitewatchman

While it is true the signal itself won't get any "stronger" than is the case at the antenna, it is possible that a preamp CAN lower the over all noise floor that front end of receiver "sees", therefore, in a practical sense, a good preamp(in the right circumstances) can "raise" the overall S/N ratio. If the preamp is getting overloaded by strong signals+is producing Intermodulation distortion however, it's likely to ADD noise to the system, but usually in a "frequency specific manner, that is probably going to involve quite a few frequencies/channels.


See the sections at following link concerning "UHF receiver system sensitivity"(about 1/2 way down the page)., "Low noise UHF TV preamplifiers", "Suggested list of UHF TV preamplifiers", and "UHF line amplifiers".

http://www.geocities.com/toddemslie/UHF-TV-DX.html 


You may find the rest of the info at above link useful as well.


----------



## GB Randy




> _Originally posted by sregener_
> 
> *Take both these overhyped antennas back to the store, give the clerk a piece of your mind about the junk they are, and pick up a Zenith Silver Sensor. It will outperform both by a mile, costs less, and has given lots of people success.
> 
> 
> Well, well, well. I am on my fourth antenna, an attenuator, and pre-amp. As some may recall, I live 5.5 miles from the antenna's in Green Bay, WI.
> 
> Just for the heck of it I bought the Zenith Silver Sensor at lunch.
> 
> 
> My system is in my basement I hooked up the antenna and threw it on the floor (not pointed in any real direction) and turned on the TV. I have a perfect picture on every channel. I TRIED to make it drop a signal...if I pointed it straight at the floor it was struggling with our weakest signal (channel 11 - FOX). Otherwise it got everything! Man I spent a lot of money and time hooking up big antennas.....now I have to take it all down and return it...
> 
> 
> Terk 44 = was OK
> 
> Terk 55 = Junk
> 
> Zenith GEMDTV-1 = Marginal but wrong for my application
> 
> Zenith Silver Sensor = Little, teeny tiny, erector set, plasticy thingy was perfect.
> 
> 
> I guess size doesn't always matter
> 
> 
> An interesting side-bar. I unplugged the outside antenna and just had the transformer hanging on the wall and my signal was unaffected by it.
> 
> 
> Read: I was receiving almost all the same channels as I was with the darn thing hooked up....Channel 5 & 11 were the only drop outs....hummmm*


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> therefore, in a practical sense, a good preamp(in the right circumstances) can "raise" the overall S/N ratio.



Only at the receiver, not at the output of the antenna, agree?


----------



## jaq

I am thinking of placing one in my attic. I have a two story house with a composite roof and live about 20 miles from most towers. Radio shack has one for about $75 (any other suggestions?). Would a standard mast antenna be any better? Most of the towers are in the same area.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *Only at the receiver, not at the output of the antenna, agree?*



Yes, I agree. In fact, I believe I said that in first sentence of last post.


----------



## greywolf

Omnidirectional antennas are generally not a good idea due to acceptance of reflected signals from nearby objects. Attic mounting one is a very bad idea. Signal reflections from the attic surfaces come in out of phase and cause havoc. At least, with a directional antenna, the gain of the off axis signals is gratly reduced.


----------



## dkyork




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by greywolf_
> *Omnidirectional antennas are generally not a good idea due to acceptance of reflected signals from nearby objects. Attic mounting one is a very bad idea. Signal reflections from the attic surfaces come in out of phase and cause havoc. At least, with a directional antenna, the gain of the off axis signals is gratly reduced.*



I bought a 4228 and a 6 foot mast for the top of my roof. I'll let you all know how it goes after the install. Hopefully I'll receive by this weekend. Should I get one of those things that tell you the degrees or will a simple compass do for aligning the antenna?


Dale


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dkyork_
> *Should I get one of those things that tell you the degrees or will a simple compass do for aligning the antenna?*



What, other than a compass, tells you the degrees? You point it north, you can figure out which direction is 270 degrees, right?


As for aligning an antenna with a compass (or any other magentic device) I would urge caution. Aiming an antenna precisely usually cannot be done visually. Hold your fist out at arm's length and see how much distance it covers. That's approximately 10 degrees. With a directional antenna, 5 degrees is more than enough to impair reception.


I always suggest having a television up with you while aiming, or be able to speak with someone (cell phone/walkie-talkie) who can see the reception guide you. That way you're not guessing at all - you know you've found the best direction for the antenna.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Nitewatchman_
> *While it is true the signal itself won't get any "stronger" than is the case at the antenna, it is possible that a preamp CAN lower the over all noise floor that front end of receiver "sees", therefore, in a practical sense, a good preamp(in the right circumstances) can "raise" the overall S/N ratio.*



This would seem to confirm what I claimed: that a preamplifier really only overcomes line loss. (Granted, there's a small amount of receiver-induced noise, but there's also a small amount of noise induced by the preamplifier's input itself. Which is greater depends on a variety of things, but I've read claims that a preamplifier's induced noise level is not dramatically different from most tuners.)


----------



## dkyork




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *This would seem to confirm what I claimed: that a preamplifier really only overcomes line loss. (Granted, there's a small amount of receiver-induced noise, but there's also a small amount of noise induced by the preamplifier's input itself. Which is greater depends on a variety of things, but I've read claims that a preamplifier's induced noise level is not dramatically different from most tuners.)*



There's about 100 feet from my antenna to my tv. How many feet before I experience db loss?


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *This would seem to confirm what I claimed: that a preamplifier really only overcomes line loss. (Granted, there's a small amount of receiver-induced noise, but there's also a small amount of noise induced by the preamplifier's input itself. Which is greater depends on a variety of things, but I've read claims that a preamplifier's induced noise level is not dramatically different from most tuners.)*



I don't know what the typical noise figure is for your run of the mill ATSC receiver/tuner, as the below info is talking about NTSC tuner. but FWIW, I copied the below quotes from the link with some of the sections I suggested for reading which I provided in an earlier post, but I suggest you check also out the remainder of the relevant sections at this link : ( http://www.geocities.com/toddemslie/UHF-TV-DX.html )


:quote


"Let's assume that we are not using any UHF masthead preamplifier and there is 4dB coax cable loss between the antenna and TV:


1. Balun signal loss 1dB.

2. Coax cable loss 4dB.

3. TV tuner noise figure 10dB.

4. System noise figure 16dB (1+4+10 = 15).

5. A 15dB system noise figure is a poor receiving system for deep fringe UHF TV reception.


Now let's assume that we are using a 2dB noise figure UHF masthead preamplifier, 1dB loss balun, and there is 4dB coax cable loss between the antenna and TV. The following table will help you appreciate the significant improvement to weak signals by placing a low noise amplifier at the masthead:



Typical UHF TV tuner noise figure 10db 2610 deg Kelvin

20 meters of RG6 coax cable 4.0db 439deg kelvin

Typical balun transformer loss 1.0db 75deg kelvin

4 x belling lee connectors 0.25db 17deg kelvin

Total losses 15.25 dB 9000deg kelvin



In the above example the Receiver System Sensitivity equates to 15.25 dB or 9000 K°.


Now we will add a low noise preamplifier (LNA) right at the masthead (antenna terminals):


Masthead LNA 2.0db 150 deg kelvin

Typical balun transformer loss 1.0db 75deg kelvin

4 x belling lee connectors 0.25db 17deg kelvin

Total losses 3.25 dB 330 deg kelvin


Providing the gain of the LNA exceeds the losses between it and the receiver (TV set), the above losses are negligible.


In the above example (with a LNA at the antenna feed) the receiver system sensitivity equals 3.25 dB (330 °K). This translates to a very significant 12 dB improvement. In other words, your UHF antenna array equates to a net improvement of making the antenna FOUR times as large!


:end quote


----------



## mws6468

Does anyone have suggestion on an antenna to receive freq's 7,18, 24,34,& 42. I am looking for something that is not very "tall" for I will be mounting it in my apt for at least a couple months. I looked at the winegard HD7210P . Any suggestions on this or a similar product?


forgot .. i am about 15 miles from towers


----------



## mws6468

has anyone tried the new PA 16 from ant. direct? How does it compare with a CM 7777 or 7778?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Yes, I agree. In fact, I believe I said that in first sentence of last post.



Yes, you did. Sorry about that.


----------



## rwantennasat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Nitewatchman_
> *I don't know what the typical noise figure is for your run of the mill ATSC receiver/tuner, as the below info is talking about NTSC tuner. but FWIW, I copied the below quotes from the link with some of the sections I suggested for reading which I provided in an earlier post, but I suggest you check also out the remainder of the relevant sections at this link : ( http://www.geocities.com/toddemslie/UHF-TV-DX.html )
> 
> 
> :quote
> 
> 
> "Let's assume that we are not using any UHF masthead preamplifier and there is 4dB coax cable loss between the antenna and TV:
> 
> 
> 1. Balun signal loss 1dB.
> 
> 2. Coax cable loss 4dB.
> 
> 3. TV tuner noise figure 10dB.
> 
> 4. System noise figure 16dB (1+4+10 = 15).
> 
> 5. A 15dB system noise figure is a poor receiving system for deep fringe UHF TV reception.
> 
> 
> Now let's assume that we are using a 2dB noise figure UHF masthead preamplifier, 1dB loss balun, and there is 4dB coax cable loss between the antenna and TV. The following table will help you appreciate the significant improvement to weak signals by placing a low noise amplifier at the masthead:
> 
> 
> 
> Typical UHF TV tuner noise figure 10db 2610 deg Kelvin
> 
> 20 meters of RG6 coax cable 4.0db 439deg kelvin
> 
> Typical balun transformer loss 1.0db 75deg kelvin
> 
> 4 x belling lee connectors 0.25db 17deg kelvin
> 
> Total losses 15.25 dB 9000deg kelvin
> 
> 
> 
> In the above example the Receiver System Sensitivity equates to 15.25 dB or 9000 K°.
> 
> 
> Now we will add a low noise preamplifier (LNA) right at the masthead (antenna terminals):
> 
> 
> Masthead LNA 2.0db 150 deg kelvin
> 
> Typical balun transformer loss 1.0db 75deg kelvin
> 
> 4 x belling lee connectors 0.25db 17deg kelvin
> 
> Total losses 3.25 dB 330 deg kelvin
> 
> 
> Providing the gain of the LNA exceeds the losses between it and the receiver (TV set), the above losses are negligible.
> 
> 
> In the above example (with a LNA at the antenna feed) the receiver system sensitivity equals 3.25 dB (330 °K). This translates to a very significant 12 dB improvement. In other words, your UHF antenna array equates to a net improvement of making the antenna FOUR times as large!
> 
> 
> :end quote*



THIS LOOKS LIKE WORK THAT BOB COOPER DID YEARS AGO PROVING HOW MUCH A MAST MOUNTED PREAMPLIFIER DOES ACTUALLY INCREASE THE ANTENNAS PERFORMANCE. I AM A PERSONAL FRIEND OF BOBS AND ANYONE ON HERE WANTING TO KNOW THE TRUTH OF PREAMPLIFIERS SHOULD READ HIS TECH ARTICLES.


----------



## EricfromVA

I installed my PR8800 in my attic and without an amp was able to pick up my local OTA stations from DC with no problem. Signal was above normal but not pegged. I bought the CM7775 amp based on my past experiences.


I hook up the power source (to TV , from Antenna) I then go in the attic and hook up the pre amp and the signal drops. Is there a short on the line? I have reterminated my drops multiple times and even tried a different CM7775 and the same thing happens. What would effect the power going from the source to the preamp? Shielding touching a termination? Interconnects?


I am at a loss. My signal is decent without it but I know these amps can get me pegged in the good range.



Any and ALL help would be appreciated.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by EricfromVA_
> *I installed my PR8800 in my attic and without an amp was able to pick up my local OTA stations from DC with no problem. Signal was above normal but not pegged. I bought the CM7775 amp based on my past experiences.
> 
> 
> [...]I am at a loss. My signal is decent without it but I know these amps can get me pegged in the good range.
> *



Preamplifiers are not magic. They don't always improve reception, nor do they even leave it the same in some cases. Among the possibilities:


1) Your preamplifier is getting overloaded because the db level is too high. (All preamps have a maximum output and "clip" if the signal becomes stronger than this.)


2) Your preamplifier is amplifying weak multipath signals that were below your receiver's noise threshold, increasing the errors in the bitstream.


I'm sure there are others, but these are the obvious ones. Keep in mind that "signal strength" on your HD set is an improperly labeled guide. It is really a "signal quality" measure. As long as you're getting breakup-free reception, your reception is already as good as it's going to get. More signal strength on the meter doesn't get you a better picture.


Check your analog UHF signals with and without the preamplifier and see if you can tell what the problem is. My personal recommendation would be to return the preamp and enjoy your quality reception without worrying about "pegging" out the meter.


----------



## JazzGuyy

I have decided that I need a rooftop antenna. Both a Silver Sensor and the RS indoor antenna I have tried just won't lock reliably enough on all the local channels. While I have cable HD, I don't expect to see the CBS and Fox stations added any time in the near to intermediate future so need reliable OTA reception. My TV is a 2002 Mitsubishi RPTV with a builit-in HD OTA receiver. It does not have signal strength metering.


I live in Goochland, near the J Sargent Reynolds campus. I have checked the usual antenna internet spots but the answers there are not specific enough for me.


I have four questions that I am looking for help on:


1. What outdoor antennas are people finding effective? I would like to also receive Charlottesville stations (can get the HD signal now from the NBC affiliate on an indoor antenna but not reliably) and will probably add a rotator to the antenna.


2. Do you think I will need an amplifier?


3. Can anyone recommend an installer? I am too short on skills to do the install myself. You can PM me on this last question, if you don't want to be seen as endorsing anyone.


4. What should a good antenna, rotator and maybe amplifier cost me, installation included?


Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by JazzGuyy_
> *1. What outdoor antennas are people finding effective? I would like to also receive Charlottesville stations (can get the HD signal now from the NBC affiliate on an indoor antenna but not reliably) and will probably add a rotator to the antenna.
> 
> 
> 2. Do you think I will need an amplifier?
> 
> 
> 3. Can anyone recommend an installer? I am too short on skills to do the install myself. You can PM me on this last question, if you don't want to be seen as endorsing anyone.
> 
> 
> 4. What should a good antenna, rotator and maybe amplifier cost me, installation included?
> *



1. You can read this thread for lots of antenna recommendations. Generally speaking, you can't go wrong with the Channel Master 4228 or AntennasDirect DB8. Both are solid UHF performers, highly directional, with a lot of gain and good front-to-back ratio. (If you don't know why those things matter, don't worry. They're all what you want in an antenna.) Add to that the relatively compact size of these antennas, and they get recommended a lot.


2. An amplifier is not recommended when you're within 20 miles of the stations, or you have a large number of high-powered FM broadcasters in the area. If you're hiring an installer, have them bring a good low-noise model (the Channel Master 777x lineup is a great choice) with them and see if you need it. How will you know? Look for snow on the analog UHF channels in your area. If you have lots of snow, a preamp is a good idea. If you have even the faintest ghosting, forgo the preamp.


3. You may have more luck asking for an installer in the thread specific to your market.


4. A Channel Master 4228 runs about $50 online (plus shipping.) A 7775 preamp costs $55. A Channel Master 9521A rotor runs $70. Toss in a mast, 100' or so of RG-6 cabling, a mount, and some sundry items, and your materials cost shouldn't be more than $250. I couldn't guess what labor runs in your area.


Antennaweb.org thinks you're borderline (violet) for analog UHFs from Charlottesville, so your results may vary. The distance is small (35 miles or so) but there must be hills or directional antennas there that make it harder to receive them. Still, if you're getting a somewhat reliable signal indoors, you should be able to receive the same station from a rooftop reliably.


----------



## dkyork

15.1, 15.2, 15.3, 15.4 WHRO-DT PBS HAMPTON-NORFOLK 199° 28.2 Excellent 16

43.1, 43.2 WVBT-DT FOX VIRGINIA BEACH 200° 27.4 Excellent 29

10.1, 10.2, 10.3 WAVY-DT NBC PORTSMOUTH 200° 27.4 Excellent 31

33.1, 33.2 WTVZ-DT WB NORFOLK 199° 28.2 Excellent 38

3.1, 3.2 WTKR-DT CBS NORFOLK 199° 28.2 Excellent 40

13.1, 13.2 WVEC-DT ABC HAMPTON 195° 27.3 Excellent 41

49.1 WPXV-DT PAX NORFOLK 199° 28.2 Excellent 46

27.1 WGNT-DT UPN PORTSMOUTH 194° 27.7 Excellent 50


That my listing from antenna.org. How can I get 10.1 in clearly 24/7, but I can't get 43.1? They are the same degrees and the same distance. I don't understand. Can anyone help me? I still don't get 3.1 or 33.1. I get all the 15s, 10s, and sometimes 13s. None of the rest. IS this a distance problem? The results just aren't logical or I'm misunderstanding something about how antennas work. Any help appreciated. The 43.1 and 10.1 thing is really throwing me off.


Thanks,


Dale


Edit: D* installed a GS-2200 Winegard, which is currently up. I received in the mail today a 4228 and a 5 foot mast. I have yet to install it since I don't have the right roof mounts yet. I'm trying to install near my peak of the house, any suggestions welcome.


Edit #2: Also, this might be harder a task then I think it is. If so, can anyone recommend a good installer to mount this thing on my roof?


----------



## L8N8

I'm making my first venture into the foray of OTA reception.


I just bought a MyHD-120 ATSC card, replacing the FusionHDTV3-T card I bought two weeks ago (I wasn't satisfied with the PQ of the Fusion card).


Now, I've already done a bit of reception testing with the Fusion card and a Zenith Silver Sensor (which I also have since returned). I put the Silver Sensor in the attic pointing toward the HD antennas in my area (Austin) as indicated by antennaweb.org.


I think the results were pretty good, considering I'm about 14 miles from the antennas. I was able to get one station at 80% signal strength (according to the Fusion card) and another at 70%. Some of the others I couldn't tune at all (but antennaweb says a green antenna should do the trick).


So, I'm just looking for a little help to decide what antenna to get.


My local Fry's has a Channel Master 3017 in stock. Will that do the trick do you think? Will it pick up VHF channels pretty effectively as well (FOX is on channel 7). Will I run into trouble if I get *too* much antenna? (Is that even possible?)


Also, the MyHD card has two F-type inputs. Do I need two antennas if I want to use both inputs?


Thanks!


----------



## mws6468

which preamp would be recommended to use with a DB2 ?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dkyork_
> *43.1, 43.2 WVBT-DT FOX VIRGINIA BEACH 200° 27.4 Excellent 29
> 
> 10.1, 10.2, 10.3 WAVY-DT NBC PORTSMOUTH 200° 27.4 Excellent 31
> 
> 
> That my listing from antenna.org. How can I get 10.1 in clearly 24/7, but I can't get 43.1? They are the same degrees and the same distance. I don't understand. Can anyone help me?*



A few possibilities exist.


First, WVBT's transmitter is 40 meters lower than WAVY's. If you're dealing with hills, it is entirely possibile that WVBT's signal is running smack into the hill (blocking line-of-sight) while WAVY's is clearing it.


Secondly, assuming both signals are blocked, different frequencies propogate in different ways, and some signals will be strong in one area and weak in another. Ultimately, you end up searching for a "pocket" where the most signals are hitting, a so-called "hot spot" and place your antenna there. It may be to the left or right of where you think it should be, or maybe up or down. UHF signals only move about 3' from peak to valley, so we're dealing with a pretty small area in which a stray signal could be found.


Third, you may be picking up a reflection on WVBT that you're not getting from WAVY. This is called multipath (because the signal travels over multiple paths before striking your antenna) and since the distances are unequal, the two signals are out-of-phase. Again, because different frequencies propogate differently, you may find a reflection on one frequency that you don't have on another. Multipath is known to confuse most digital receivers, and the level of multipath required may vary from place to place.


Fourth, WVBT is using a directional antenna, and if it malfunctioning, it may not be sending out the specified power in your direction. Check with the station engineer to verify that the transmitter is running at full power and that the directional pattern is operating normally.


Finally, you may have some form of interference that is causing problems on one frequency and not on another. If there is another station on a near frequency (one channel up or down) it can sometimes interfere with reception of another channel. Although this problem is greatly reduced with digital signals, there is some amount of "bleed" from one channel to the next.


Hope this helps you understand how things can be different. I don't know the topography between you and your desired stations.


----------



## bobbehr

Winegard HD9095P vs.Antennasdirect 91XG

Location: South Haven,MI 49090

Desire:Maximum Uhf signals for OTA HD.Mainly South Bend,also 2 and

7 from Gun Lake,and any Chicago on the good days.

Additional tips welcome.Thanks to the Best


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by bobbehr_
> *Winegard HD9095P vs.Antennasdirect 91XG
> 
> Location: South Haven,MI 49090
> 
> Desire:Maximum Uhf signals for OTA HD.Mainly South Bend,also 2 and
> 
> 7 from Gun Lake,and any Chicago on the good days.
> 
> Additional tips welcome.Thanks to the Best*



Neither will do an acceptable job on channel 2. You *might* get away with trying to get 7 with a UHF-only, but that's not a guarantee. Your best bet would be to buy a VHF-only antenna to combine with one of the above choices and use a Channel Master #0549 (or a preamplifier with separate UHF and VHF inputs like the CM 7777) to combine the two.


If you haven't read my review of the AntennasDirect91XG, do so here:
http://www.geocities.com/figbert/91xg.html 


The 9095 is a good choice. I can't say if it's better than the 91XG. Others have reported better results with the 91XG or the DB8, and some swear by the 9095. I think you'd best try them both and see which one works better in your particular location.


----------



## bobbehr

Yea sorry ,

"also" after South Bend should have read "don't care about 2 or 7".

"and any Chicago" should read "any Uhf Chicago"

Poorly written post ,of course I don't expect any Vhf signals.

Many thank you's sregener.


----------



## dkyork

Grounding an antenna properly. Does the Winegard GS-2200 have grounding to the HD tuner? I looked at the Winegard D* installed and didn't see a copper grounding wire. I think when I put the 4228 in it's place, I'll need a copper grounding wire right?


thanks,


Dale


----------



## greywolf

 http://www.mikeholt.com/documents/gr.../satellite.doc 

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=395088 



AVSforum member Signal posted the following helpful sites. Dish and antenna masts have the same grounding requirements.



National Electrical Code - Search for "dish" http://forums.nfpa.org:8081/necfaq/necsrch.htm 


The information there also applies to antenna grounding. In the 2002 code update, if a water pipe is used, it must be all metal and connected to the electrical panel within 5ft of where the pipe enters the building. The connection to the pipe from the lightning arrestor/ground block and from the antenna/dish mast must also be within 5ft of the pipe's entry.



Preventing Damage Due to Ground Potential Difference
http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm 


PSIHQ - Grounding Requirements
http://www.psihq.com/iread/strpgrnd.htm 


PolyPhaser Technical Information
http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_technical.asp


----------



## dkyork




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by greywolf_
> * http://www.mikeholt.com/documents/gr.../satellite.doc
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=395088
> 
> 
> 
> AVSforum member Signal posted the following helpful sites. Dish and antenna masts have the same grounding requirements.
> 
> 
> 
> National Electrical Code - Search for "dish" http://forums.nfpa.org:8081/necfaq/necsrch.htm
> 
> 
> The information there also applies to antenna grounding. In the 2002 code update, if a water pipe is used, it must be all metal and connected to the electrical panel within 5ft of where the pipe enters the building. The connection to the pipe from the lightning arrestor/ground block and from the antenna/dish mast must also be within 5ft of the pipe's entry.
> 
> 
> 
> Preventing Damage Due to Ground Potential Difference
> http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm
> 
> 
> PSIHQ - Grounding Requirements
> http://www.psihq.com/iread/strpgrnd.htm
> 
> 
> PolyPhaser Technical Information
> http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_technical.asp *



Ugh, neither my Dish or OTA antenna is grounded. This is going to be fun. Guess I need to go buy about a 100 foot of copper wire and figure out how to ground these the best way.


Thanks for the links.


Dale


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dkyork_
> *Ugh, neither my Dish or OTA antenna is grounded. This is going to be fun. Guess I need to go buy about a 100 foot of copper wire and figure out how to ground these the best way.
> *



You can ground your antenna by connecting a short length of wire from the mast to the outer shealth of the coax cable, then ground the coax with a grounding block at the point closest to where it enters the house. Then you don't have so much cable to run.


----------



## greywolf

That wouldn't satisfy code requirements though. No. 10 copper, No. 8. aluminum, or No. 17 copper-clad steel or bronze is specified. Using coax with an attached messenger wire will meet code as it is 17ga copper clad steel or bronze. http://www.globe-mart.com/page/5/5722.htm shows an example.


----------



## dkyork




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by greywolf_
> *That wouldn't satisfy code requirements though. No. 10 copper, No. 8. aluminum, or No. 17 copper-clad steel or bronze is specified. Using coax with an attached messenger wire will meet code as it is 17ga copper clad steel or bronze. http://www.globe-mart.com/page/5/5722.htm shows an example.*



That's good stuff Grey. I think I'll use that to run from my dish and OTA antenna, meet at the block and right on the other side of the wall is my circuit panel for the house. Sound like a good plan?


Dale


----------



## greywolf

Sounds workable. The odd thing though is sregener's idea actually provides a cleaner, lower resistance path to ground. Maybe the code writer's never considered it or they worried about poor connector installation. My only objection involves exposed coax connectors. I like mine out of the weather. OTOH, the contact hardware on ground clamps and blocks is pretty foolproof.


----------



## Woo

I have a newbie antenna question....I bought a l UHF/VHF antenna for an attic mount. The problem arose when I attempted to orient this large antenna in the direction required but I can't turn it enough because of the VHF extensions. My question is since I'm only interested in UHF, can I fold those extensions inward and not have it affect the UHF performance?


Thanks & Regards,

Woo


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> My question is since I'm only interested in UHF, can I fold those extensions inward and not have it affect the UHF performance?



Yes, just don't let any of the parts you fold in touch the rest of the antenna.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by greywolf_
> *That wouldn't satisfy code requirements though. No. 10 copper, No. 8. aluminum, or No. 17 copper-clad steel or bronze is specified. Using coax with an attached messenger wire will meet code as it is 17ga copper clad steel or bronze. http://www.globe-mart.com/page/5/5722.htm shows an example.*



As usual, code isn't written with common sense in mind.


If there is a lightning strike within 10' of your antenna (or, obviously, the antenna itself), all the electrical equipment in your house is likely to be fried no matter how well grounded it may be. Grounding is required not to take care of distributing electrical charges in such a circumstance, but to "bleed off" static buildup that is caused when charged wind particles are blown around a metal object.


Now, I'm not an electrician, but it seems to me that the amount of static buildup on an antenna can't be that much that it would require a #10 copper wire to carry the electrical charge. Thus, almost any wire should be sufficient to protect against the voltage differential between the ground and the metal object.


In my previous recommendation of attaching the grounding wire to the outer coax connection, there is no reason that you can't seal that connection using electrical tape, protecting it from the elements.


Of course, following my advice (or that of anyone else posting on the internet) is at your own risk, and I make no claims that my proposed solutions are effective, safe, or even a good idea. Caveat reader.


----------



## greywolf

I figure a lot of code regulations are written to support the trades rather than addressing actual safety and security issues. If 17ga copper coated steel is a good enough conductor to bleed off static, the shield of the coax is certainly even better. I always recommend people check local codes as they vary and noncompliance can cause problems with insurance and resale if not function. My personal irritations around local codes include not being able to use non-metallic sheathed electrical cable in any situation or plastic plumbing pipe in many situations even though they work fine and are accepted in most areas.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> As usual, code isn't written with common sense in mind.



It also would follow that the difference in earth potential and the potential of the house ground would be small enough to render the difference insignificant in practice. However, as most know, the code states you must strap to the house ground and not simply to earth.


I'm not an electrician, either, and the same "caveat reader" applies.


----------



## ross86

is HDTV available in the UK?


----------



## greywolf




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *It also would follow that the difference in earth potential and the potential of the house ground would be small enough to render the difference insignificant in practice. However, as most know, the code states you must strap to the house ground and not simply to earth.
> 
> 
> I'm not an electrician, either, and the same "caveat reader" applies.*



In case of a nearby lightning strike, the potential difference between the main building ground and other spots in the earth can be pretty large and dangerous so I understand necessity of bonding separate gound points. http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm 


To continue the rant though, even supposed professionals screw up the interpretation of the electrical code. I was watching "House Detective" on HGTV and a certified home inspector saw a ground connection from the incoming CATV line attached to the grounded metallic electrical service raceway of the house. He said it was a code violation, had been outlawed by the NEC for years, and could cause dangerous situations including exploding a VCR. In fact, The NEC says acceptable central building ground points include:


* Grounded interior metal cold water pipe within five feet of the point where it enters the building.

* Grounded metallic service raceway.

* Grounded electrical service equipment enclosure.

* Eight-foot grounding rod driven into the ground (only if bonded to the central building ground by #6 or heavier bonding wire).


----------



## cpcat

I understand what is recommended by code, and I know there are multiple sources out there agreeing with that. What I've not seen is any proof that grounding to the house ground is safer than earthing in the most direct manner possible. The problem is that most if not all the info on lightning strikes is anecdotal/theoretical. It would seem to me that the following methods would be ranked in order of safe methods with the safest #1:


1) Direct path to earth with grounding rod strapped to house ground.

2) Direct path to earth with grounding rod

3) Ground to house ground.


I've spoken to 2 local electricians now and they both told me they'd go with #2 above.


Again, "caveat reader" and #2 above is *not* in compliance with NEC.


----------



## greywolf

1 would be best for a direct hit.

3 would be best for a nearby hit.

2 is just plain dangerous. The electricians you talked to weren't even thinking about what could happen in a nearby strike.


A direct hit though is very unlikely with a grounded mast and a direct hit is going to cause damage no matter how straight and short the path to ground. The purpose of grounding is prevention.


----------



## mitchlampert

If I want to combine the satellite (triple LNB) with the antenna cables to run one cable to the reciever, what do I need? And what do I need to seperate them at the reciever?


Thanks

Mitch


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mitchlampert_
> *If I want to combine the satellite (triple LNB) with the antenna cables to run one cable to the reciever, what do I need? And what do I need to seperate them at the reciever?*



You want to use a diplexer at each side.


----------



## virgil001

Has anyone ever posted a general guide on amps and pre-amps, and the more popular models? If so, would someone point me in the right direction, please?


----------



## Mach5

Hi,


I live 2.5 miles south of ESB, Lower E. Side, I can't get 2.1(cbs) and 4.1(nbc) at all. I can only recieve 5.1-2 (fox), 7.1-2 (abc) and sometime 11.1-2 (wb). I have medium range direction antenna on the roof (5 stories building) and Sony TV with ATSC tuner built in. My question is if I get a TV antenna amplifier, will it help?? Recommendation on which type to buy??


----------



## w9wi

If you're only 2.5 miles from the ESB, weak signals shouldn't be your problem - and an amplifier won't fix anything. Indeed, it can make things *worse*, by overloading and causing stations to appear on channels they aren't actually broadcasting on.


It would be interesting to know what the *analog* reception on the same antenna looks like. Check analog *UHF* channels - it's my understanding WNYE (25), WPXN (31), WXTV (41), and WFUT (68) are all on the ESB.


If your analog reception is weak, with "snow" across the entire screen, then there's something wrong with your antenna or (more likely) the feedline connecting it to the TV.


If your analog reception has "ghosts" - multiple images - then you're going to have to fiddle with the antenna. Try turning it to minimize the ghosts -- the correct orientation may *NOT* be with the antenna pointed at the ESB! (you should have plenty of spare signal; you should be able to weaken the desired signals if you weaken the unwanted reflections even more) Ghosts can also be caused by defects in the antenna or feedline. Unfortunately, it's also possible you simply won't be able to achieve acceptable reception, if there's a large building between you and the ESB.


If your analog reception has some other kind of noise in it -- other than "snow" -- that's caused by a local source of interference. This kind of problem is usually worse on lower channels - the noise should be much worse on analog channel 2 than it is on analog channel 41. Unfortunately this kind of interference can be difficult to locate...


(I wonder how we're going to track down reception problems when the analog transmitters are shut down?!)


----------



## IndyJake

I need some help.


First, the questions. Can I stack two dissimilar antennas? If so, how is best to do it? Vertical? Horizontal? Would I need separate pre-amps for each?


Now the background. I live on a farm outside Clinton, IN 47842. I need VHF and UHF reception. My signal sources come from the south (16 to 32 miles), west (35 to 60 miles) and east (65 to 68 miles). The terrain is flat. I already have a 40' tower, a Channel Master 4242 UHF/VHF antenna, a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp and a Channel Master rotator. I'm usiing Sony HD-300 and DirecTV HR10-250 receivers. (The Sony, by the way, locks on OTA signals much better).


I want to add a Channel Master 4228 UHF antenna to my existing 4242 to increase my long distance UHF reception. Is this doable???


Thanks in advance to any of you who can educate me.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by IndyJake_
> *First, the questions. Can I stack two dissimilar antennas? If so, how is best to do it? Vertical? Horizontal? Would I need separate pre-amps for each?
> *



You "can" do many things that won't work. This is one of them.


The best thing to do is to hook the two separate antennas to an A/B switch and switch between them for your different reception situation.


Hooking up two UHF antennas (identical or not) and pointing them in different directions almost always reduces your received signal strength, not increases it. (Note: this age-old "wisdom" might change when the new LG 5th-generation chipset becomes available.)


----------



## IndyJake




> Quote:
> Hooking up two UHF antennas (identical or not) and pointing them in different directions almost always reduces your received signal strength, not increases it.



I may not have been clear on this. I intended to point both antennas in the same direction and use the rotator when a change in position was needed. My purpose in stacking was to get better UHF reception, not to get reception from different directions at the same time.


----------



## GenoV

Jake,


I've got a 4228 and a 3671 ChannelMaster stacked and pointed in the same direction, running through a 7777 pre-amp, and it works fine. Whether or not it is boosting the reception, I couldn't tell you because I've never run them separate from one another. But the point is, it does work and doesn't seem to hinder any reception as far as I can tell.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> I may not have been clear on this. I intended to point both antennas in the same direction and use the rotator when a change in position was needed. My purpose in stacking was to get better UHF reception, not to get reception from different directions at the same time.



IndyJake,

If you want to stack for increased gain and/or directivity you'll need two identical antennas. Vertical stacking narrows vertical beamwidth while horizontal stacking narrows horiz. beamwidth. You'll need identical lengths of coax before the combiner. Specialty uhf combiners are available, but a wideband splitter in reverse also works. You might also consider upgrading to a single Antennasdirect XG91 first which is likely to be a small but significant improvement on a single 4242 on the uhf side. Sregener has a review of one : http://www.geocities.com/figbert/ant...irect91xg.html 


I prefer horizontal stacking for digital reception. I've tried vertical multiple times and I always return to horizontal. I'm 65-130 mi. away. Vertical also puts mucho stress on the rotor so you'll need an alignment bearing or a heavy duty rotor if you go vertical.



> Quote:
> I've got a 4228 and a 3671 ChannelMaster stacked and pointed in the same direction, running through a 7777 pre-amp, and it works fine. Whether or not it is boosting the reception, I couldn't tell you because I've never run them separate from one another. But the point is, it does work and doesn't seem to hinder any reception as far as I can tell.



GenoV,

I'd bet the reason this works is that you're hooked to the separate uhf and vhf inputs on the CM7777 and it's diplexing out the uhf signals from the 3671.


----------



## IndyJake

Thanks cpcat,


I guess I'm stuck with what I've got for the time being as I can't give up the VHF yet.


----------



## cpcat

IndyJake,

If you can do with high band vhf (7-13) only you could separate them i.e. xg91 for uhf and something like an antennacraft Y107-13 for vhf high band. This will work perfectly using the CM7777. If you need low band, better stay with the monster you have.


----------



## Rmassey

I have a Reconton TV2000 that I purchased and installed in 1999. Is this suitable for HDTV reception. I live in Colorado Springs and I am currently only getting CBS, and FOx is very blocky and breaks up a lot. Do I just need to adjust the direction/location of the antenna to get better reception?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by IndyJake_
> *I guess I'm stuck with what I've got for the time being as I can't give up the VHF yet.*



You *can* stack two dissimilar antennas together, if you're willing to do a lot of work and only need one channel. Essentially, you vary the lengths of the cable between each antenna and the combiner until the signal is in phase. Of course, the lengths change by frequency, so what works for one channel won't work for another.


You don't have to give up VHF to use a VHF/UHF combo and a separate UHF antenna. Just get a Channel Master #0549 (or use a Channel Master 7777 preamplifier, though that's probably not a good idea in your case.) Hook the new UHF antenna to the UHF input, hook the old combo to the VHF input, and you're done. The #0549 will, for $10, filter out the VHF extras from the UHF antenna and the UHF side of the combo. If you're using a preamplifier, hook it up just below this combiner.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Rmassey_
> *I have a Reconton TV2000 that I purchased and installed in 1999. Is this suitable for HDTV reception. I live in Colorado Springs and I am currently only getting CBS, and FOx is very blocky and breaks up a lot. Do I just need to adjust the direction/location of the antenna to get better reception?*



It's probably not a very good antenna for digital reception. You'd do better to get a "normal" antenna from a reputable manufacturer (Winegard/Channel Master) and use that. That said, if you haven't tried different aiming directions and locations on your property, that's cheap to do and might help.


Still, I wouldn't bet on reliable reception from that overadvertised, overpriced hunk of junk.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by IndyJake_
> *I need some help.
> 
> 
> First, the questions. Can I stack two dissimilar antennas? If so, how is best to do it? Vertical? Horizontal? Would I need separate pre-amps for each?
> 
> 
> Now the background. I live on a farm outside Clinton, IN 47842. I need VHF and UHF reception. My signal sources come from the south (16 to 32 miles), west (35 to 60 miles) and east (65 to 68 miles). The terrain is flat. I already have a 40' tower, a Channel Master 4242 UHF/VHF antenna, a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp and a Channel Master rotator. I'm usiing Sony HD-300 and DirecTV HR10-250 receivers. (The Sony, by the way, locks on OTA signals much better).
> 
> 
> I want to add a Channel Master 4228 UHF antenna to my existing 4242 to increase my long distance UHF reception. Is this doable???
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance to any of you who can educate me.*




Your desire to improve UHF reception indicates you are having problems.Which stations are weak or problematic?


----------



## IndyJake

Max HD:


You may regret asking that question. The short answer is that I'll know in a week.


Here's the long answer. I just moved in to my new home from the trailer I was living in next door while I built it. Just prior to moving, The CM 4242 received a direct lightning strike (frying all my receivers, my computer, my CM 7777 pre-amp, my rotator and my computer) but my antenna installers who wired the house and installed the 40' tower thought the antenna would be ok to use anyway. It's now up there and has a Weingard pre-amp the installers provided.


The lightning strike was my excuse to buy a HR10-250 receiver. But the HR10-250 keeps losing the OTA signals. My Sony HD-300, however, doesn't. Soooooo, DirecTV has sent out two replacement HR10-250's, has had a tech come out and is scheduled to have a "senior" tech come out next week. My antenna guys have been out a half dozen times as well.


But here's what I've noticed. If I jiggle the coax connection I get a significant increase or drop in signal. It doesn't matter whether I do it at the receiver, at the wall jack, in the mechanical room at the pre-amp, the splitter or anywhere else. It has the weakest signal when all the connections are screwed down tight. But just play with one and the signal's all over the place. Tonight it's good. In the morning I'll probably have to jiggle a wire again. The problem is I don't even know if "good" is good enough because I can't get stations I used get using my old receiver without the tower. Maybe in addition to my other problems the HR10-250 just isn't a very good OTA receiver.


Anyway, my conclusion, since the "experts" haven't been much help thus far, is that I may have a defective pre-amp or I may have some type of interference in my mechanical room. But with that damned antenna sitting up there and having been struck by lightning I've got to eliminate it as a possible cause.


So I have a new CM 4242 arriving Monday along with a CM 7777 pre-amp. We'll be installing them Tuesday and see what happens. My original question about stacking arose because I figured if I'm going to all this trouble to bring down the tower I might as well put up two antennas if it would help.


Thanks for asking. I needed to vent. I'll let you know in a week whether my problem's been solved.


----------



## Rmassey




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *Still, I wouldn't bet on reliable reception from that overadvertised, overpriced hunk of junk.*



Ahh OK, thanks, I think..... In my defense, I bought it before I knew any better and/or I had any hopes or knowledge of HD content


----------



## Cucuy

Hi All,

I live near some railroad tracks that are somehat busy. I have noticed that everytime the train passes it interferes with my HDTV reception. I have a Silversensor and a LG 3510A STB. Is there a way to fight this? Would a better antenna help me? What causes the interference just the noise (probably low frequency wit lots of energy) Or is it something else? It is very annoying when it happens.


----------



## greywolf

The electrical emissions really are only a pain with the low VHF channels. The antenna can pick up those frequencies in the channel 2-6 range. The SvS is a UHF antenna so that metal mass is the probable culprit. Blocking is a rarer phenomena than reflection. Signals reflecting off the large objects arrive off axis from the direct signal so come in out of phase and have a somewhat cancelling effect.


A typical method to fight multipath is to use a very directional antenna so that off axis refections are very weak compared to the main signal. The SvS is pretty directional and that's a good start but it's usually indoors so the structure reflects a lot of signals. Going outdoors can help.


Two identical, highly directional antennas mounted side by side and aimed in the same direction, combined with a standard two way splitter and equal length coax can do a very good job of ignoring off axis signals. A 5th generation tuner scheduled to arrive first quarter 2005 is reported to be able to analyse the signal streams and combine them in phase.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by IndyJake_
> *Max HD:
> 
> 
> You may regret asking that question. The short answer is that I'll know in a week.
> 
> 
> Here's the long answer. I just moved in to my new home from the trailer I was living in next door while I built it. Just prior to moving, The CM 4242 received a direct lightning strike (frying all my receivers, my computer, my CM 7777 pre-amp, my rotator and my computer) but my antenna installers who wired the house and installed the 40' tower thought the antenna would be ok to use anyway. It's now up there and has a Weingard pre-amp the installers provided.
> 
> 
> The lightning strike was my excuse to buy a HR10-250 receiver. But the HR10-250 keeps losing the OTA signals. My Sony HD-300, however, doesn't. Soooooo, DirecTV has sent out two replacement HR10-250's, has had a tech come out and is scheduled to have a "senior" tech come out next week. My antenna guys have been out a half dozen times as well.
> 
> 
> But here's what I've noticed. If I jiggle the coax connection I get a significant increase or drop in signal. It doesn't matter whether I do it at the receiver, at the wall jack, in the mechanical room at the pre-amp, the splitter or anywhere else. It has the weakest signal when all the connections are screwed down tight. But just play with one and the signal's all over the place. Tonight it's good. In the morning I'll probably have to jiggle a wire again. The problem is I don't even know if "good" is good enough because I can't get stations I used get using my old receiver without the tower. Maybe in addition to my other problems the HR10-250 just isn't a very good OTA receiver.
> 
> 
> Anyway, my conclusion, since the "experts" haven't been much help thus far, is that I may have a defective pre-amp or I may have some type of interference in my mechanical room. But with that damned antenna sitting up there and having been struck by lightning I've got to eliminate it as a possible cause.
> 
> 
> So I have a new CM 4242 arriving Monday along with a CM 7777 pre-amp. We'll be installing them Tuesday and see what happens. My original question about stacking arose because I figured if I'm going to all this trouble to bring down the tower I might as well put up two antennas if it would help.
> 
> 
> Thanks for asking. I needed to vent. I'll let you know in a week whether my problem's been solved.*




If by jiggling the coax,and or the connectors is messing with the signal I would definitely make the installers replace every run of wire if need be.Not good.


Since you're going with the 7777,seperate UHF/VHF antennas would be a better way to go,with you trying to pick up Indy,Champaign,Urbana,etc.A CM-4228 with a VHF such as a Delhi VP-307 would be good.


Be sure to post back next week,after they work on it some more.


----------



## Chad0429

I've got 3 different degrees listed here for my location. 165, 166, 167 - all relative to polar North.


Will one antenna pick up all of these if pointed in the general direction or do I need 3 different antennas? Would an omidirectional do the trick? I think there's one station not listed that I may be able to get and it's probably at the 190ish range. Would I only need 2 antennas then and run some kind of condenser?


Thanks


----------



## Chad0429

Perfect - sorry for the mispost. Glazed right over this thread.


I'm ~40-45 miles from the source per the site, violet is the type being recommended.



I don't think I can do an outdoor antenna per Homeowners Assoc., but I have about 10 or 12 feet in my attic that I can mount the antenna on a mast and get it up there pretty good.


Any recommendations?


----------



## greywolf

Check http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html to see if your HOA regulations violate FCC rules. Most do and are null and void.


----------



## GHorne

Anyone live in San Bernardino County, City of Upland, and able to get a decent OTA signal. I tried it and can barely get a signal. I was wondering if I need to get an antenna placed on the outside of my home rather than the $30 goodguys inside one I currently have.

Garrett


----------



## cmk

I am relatively new to OTA HDTV. I live in Tualatin Oregon which is 11 miles out from the Towers in Portland Oregon. I first tried Terk's HDTVi and that was garbage. I tried another Terk Product

tv55 and returned that as well. I then tried and RCA boom type antenna RCA ANT3022 mounted in my attic of my 2 story home. The towers are all within 5 degrees of each other so I am thinking I would not need a rotor. At times I get great receiption. Other times it is very intermittent. I later added a Radio Shack high gain antenna mounted preamp 15-2507. This seems to be of no help. My receiver is a Samsung TS360. The OTA signal meter seems to bounce all over the place. Mostly setting on 45%. Sometimes it bounces to zero and I still have a picture?? I have to constantly adjust the antenna. Once I think I have it dialed in great the next day my receiption is intermittent. Any pointers would be a huge help. Am I possibly getting different results based on weather conditions?? This is a great forum.


----------



## cpcat

All of your digitals are uhf except PAX which is ch. 4. If you can do without PAX, the simplest thing would be to go with something like a CM 4221 (minumum) or better a CM 4228 since you're in the attic (you need a much larger antenna from your attic). I would not use a preamp at that distance.


If you need ch. 4, you could add the antenna you have (only for vhf) and you'll need a vhf/uhf diplexer to combine the two antennas. The diplexer filters out uhf from the vhf antenna and vice-versa for the uhf, preventing corruption of the signal with multipath. A good diplexer is the CM 0549.



Go to http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp for bearing to the towers so you can aim precisely.


----------



## cmk

Thanks for the advise. Is my current antenna not ideal since it is pickup up both UHF and VHF creating interferance or is is not large enough?? At times it worked great but seems to have breakup during rainy/cloudy conditions on some channels. I'll return the Pre amp and give on of the channel masters you suggest a try


----------



## cpcat

Your current antenna likely has an insufficient uhf section for consistent performance inside of an attic. The vhf is probably o.k. (at that distance).

If you wanted to keep that antenna for both uhf/vhf, you'd have to go outside with it.


The vhf/uhf interference is only an issue with separate antennas.


----------



## Mark McQuaide

Hi all,


My Fox digital signal here in SE PA is marginal, and I've noticed that any electrical appliances like the washer or kitchen mixer, or just unplugging an electrical cord from the wall, will cause a dropout of the signal. Is there anything I can do to reduce this, like putting in upgraded coax from my attic antenna? The coax was installed when the house was built and I don't know what the quality is.


I'm using a Channel Master 8-bay UHF antenna and a Winegard preamp with a Sony HD-100 HD receiver. Everything is plugged into a Monster HTS 1100 power conditioner. Any tips would be appreciated.


Mark


----------



## bcolon

I recently added a Leviton Powered amp to my antenna line to strengthen my signal, but it had the opposite affect. Half of my HD stations had lost their signals and all of my SD channels had snow. Any ideas on what is wrong?


----------



## Rmassey




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *It's probably not a very good antenna for digital reception. You'd do better to get a "normal" antenna from a reputable manufacturer (Winegard/Channel Master) and use that. That said, if you haven't tried different aiming directions and locations on your property, that's cheap to do and might help.
> 
> 
> Still, I wouldn't bet on reliable reception from that overadvertised, overpriced hunk of junk.*



hey guess what, I re-pointed this "overadvertised, overpriced hunk of junk." to the south and I now get all the OTA locals via HD. Thanks for the valuable advise.


----------



## blackngold19

I know this post should be in the BOSTON MA OTA FORUM, but I've posted about my issues there to no avail. I am 35 miles away from the towers in Boston, and I currently have the Square Shooter antenna on my bedroom window terrace about 25' high. This is where my landlord allows me to keep my dishes, so I really can't go higher or bigger in size. I am running 50' of cable to my tuner. Here is a breakdown of my current signal strengths from best to worst.


CBS - 80-82%

ABC - 75-78%

PBS - 72-75%

NBC - 60-68%

FOX - up to 65% tough to lock in for long periods of time

UPN - up to low 60% only locked on it once


Should I just accept what I currently have under my current constraints, or can more tweaking or premaps possibly help my situation? If a preamp will help, is it easy to wire the plug into the house? A plug would be very close through and adjacent wall where the cable runs in. Maybe FOX and UPN are just weaker signals. If a drop of rain or cloud rolls by it's gone. All antenna compass points are between 90-92% according to antennaweb.


Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks,


blackie


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by blackngold19_
> *Should I just accept what I currently have under my current constraints, or can more tweaking or premaps possibly help my situation? If a preamp will help, is it easy to wire the plug into the house?*



A preamplifier might help. They come in two pieces - an indoor unit and an outdoor unit. The indoor unit plugs into the wall, preferably close to the television, and "injects" the power up the coax to the outdoor unit.


But preamplifiers won't help if multipath is the problem. Check your analog UHF signals for ghosting. If you see ghosts, more power isn't likely to fix your problem.


You might be able to squeeze a Channel Master 3021 (good) or 4228 (better) on your deck, and get better results with those, too.


----------



## blackngold19




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *A preamplifier might help. They come in two pieces - an indoor unit and an outdoor unit. The indoor unit plugs into the wall, preferably close to the television, and "injects" the power up the coax to the outdoor unit.
> 
> 
> But preamplifiers won't help if multipath is the problem. Check your analog UHF signals for ghosting. If you see ghosts, more power isn't likely to fix your problem.
> 
> 
> You might be able to squeeze a Channel Master 3021 (good) or 4228 (better) on your deck, and get better results with those, too.*



Thanks, but I think those antennas are "eye sores" Appreciate the response though.


----------



## STT

on a standard VHF\\UHF antenna what is the correct direction to point the antenna for VHF reception ? ; for UHF reception.


The response I receive is that the antenna works best in UHF mode with the Corner reflector pointing forward. For VHF stations it works better in the opposite position with the large elements in a swept back position.


Does this seem to agree with common thinking


----------



## DLGlos

First post here, so be a bit gentle.


Just bought our first HDTV, a Sony 36xs955, and I'm looking forward to seeing what can be picked up over the airwaves. We don't do cable or satelite, so that won't be a complication.


We live in urban Cincinnati, and according to the antennaweb.org site, almost every station I'm interested in transmits within a 3-10 mile radius from our house. They also happen to be roughly divided into two groups; one towards the NW and a second to the SW. There is an additional station WPTO in Oxford, roughly 30 miles to the north that would be nice to pickup, although I suspect they don't have much transmitter power and it would be a longshot.


My initial thought was to use two of the Winegard unamplified squareshooters, one aimed to the NW and second to the SW, and combine them with a diplexer of backwards splitter, although, from what I've read on this thread, that isn't a great idea. A pair of DB2's would also seem to do the trick, at less cost. The thought was simply two antennas might be less than one plus the rotator, plus the stream could be split into 2-3 rooms/TV's, where adjusting the rotator might help one set, but kill the signal on one of the others. Depending on how everything works, I might have to add a VHF element to pick up some of the old NTSC feeds, or the one ATSC feed that is at channel 10 (WCPO)?


The next set of questions involve the antennasdirect DB line. The DB2 and DB8 are listed as directional, which jibes with the CM4228. However, the DB4 is listed as multidirectional. What is up with that? Could the DB4 serve my needs? The price certainly seems OK. AD doesn't seem to have any polar plots indicating gain pattern, so I'm not comfortable just blindly ordering.


Finally, till this point, we have always used inside antennas, which for the most part, work OK. Although, there is a lot of mult-path around our area, and since I live in an old, urban neighborhood. there are many 50ft plus trees, and I'm closely surrounded by 3-story houses, like mine. It will not be that big of deal to mount a J-mast on the rear (west facing) fasciaboard of the house, although the cable run will be in the 75-100ft range. From what I understand, RG6 is the cable to use?


If anyone wants the antennaweb.org numbers, I can post them, or punch in 45208 as the zip.


Any advice is greatly appreciated.


Dave Glos


----------



## blackngold19




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *A preamplifier might help. They come in two pieces - an indoor unit and an outdoor unit. The indoor unit plugs into the wall, preferably close to the television, and "injects" the power up the coax to the outdoor unit.
> 
> 
> But preamplifiers won't help if multipath is the problem. Check your analog UHF signals for ghosting. If you see ghosts, more power isn't likely to fix your problem.
> 
> 
> You might be able to squeeze a Channel Master 3021 (good) or 4228 (better) on your deck, and get better results with those, too.*



Both of these antennas are 40" high. I have ordered the antennas direct db4 which should have comparable gain to either of those 2 Channelmaster Antennas at 29X19 vs. 40x20 or 40X40. If the DB4 gains more than my Square Shooter I will gain an extra $80.00. I've got my fingers crosssed. Thx for the advice again.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> on a standard VHF\\UHF antenna what is the correct direction to point the antenna for VHF reception ? ; for UHF reception.



If you have a true combo vhf/uhf antenna, it should do best pointed at the transmitter for both. If there are elements of the antenna *behind* the corner reflector, it's a combo. If not, you have a uhf-only antenna in which case vhf high band reception (7-13) may be better through the back end.


Low band (2-6) in a uhf-only as above is actually better broad-sided, i.e. 90 degrees off-axis or thereabouts. Neither position will give you reception as good as a vhf antenna, though, and the low band will suffer the most.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by DLGlos_
> *The next set of questions involve the antennasdirect DB line. The DB2 and DB8 are listed as directional, which jibes with the CM4228. However, the DB4 is listed as multidirectional. What is up with that? Could the DB4 serve my needs? [...]From what I understand, RG6 is the cable to use?
> *



The DB4 is not "multidirectional." That's a mistake on their website. However, a DB4 (or CM3021) does have a pretty wide acceptance angle, close to 60 degrees. If all you're after are the Cincinnati stations, any 4-bay bowtie should work just fine. You may need to experiment to find a direction that works best.


Hooking up two antennas and pointing them in different directions and then combining them is highly unlikely to work in your situation, unless you invest in expensive filters. You could invest in a Radio Shack A/B RF switch that would let you switch between two antennas fairly easily, but that requires two coax runs to the switch.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by DLGlos_
> *There is an additional station WPTO in Oxford, roughly 30 miles to the north that would be nice to pickup, although I suspect they don't have much transmitter power and it would be a longshot.*



WPTO digital is currently at full licensed power(400KW ERP) from WXIX(Fox) tower in Cincinnati. They do not currently transmit from Oxford as is the case with the analog station. The antennaweb info is incorrect on this. See Cincinnati thread(info on the stations can be found in the first few posts) and/or FCC info ( http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html ) for more details.


BTW, In addition to the Cincinnati stations, you are also well within the coverage areas of most of the Dayton digital stations, all of which are UHF currently. Dayton Towers are approx. 42~44 Miles NNE of Cincinnati Towers, and would be roughly the same distance NNE Of your location. Also, WKOI analog/digital(TBN) is located near Oxford, not their Community of license, Richmond, In. WKOI-DT is currently low power, with a directional transmitting antenna pattern which just about favors only their COL, Richmond, IN some 30 miles NNW of their tower.



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by DLGlos_
> *I might have to add a VHF element to pick up some of the old NTSC feeds, or the one ATSC feed that is at channel 10 (WCPO)?
> *



At your distance, if you don't have any serious terrain issues chances are good that you'll get a strong enough signal from WCPO-DT that a UHF antenna(or even a "coathanger" or short piece of wire hooked to back of TV) May do fine. For good quality analog VHF reception however,(especially for WLWT 5, or WDTN 2 Dayton/WHIO 7 Dayton/WAVE 3 Lousiville), you'll likely want VHF reception capability, even though you are close enough it is possible you might even get a decent pic from WLWT 5 with a UHF antenna.


----------------------------


If you don't want to use a rotor, for say Cincinnati/Dayton stations in different directions, the seperate antennas and A/B switch(s)+seperate coax feeds as Srenger mentioned is the way to go in this circumstance. Although I have a rotor as well(which I don't need for Cincinnati or Dayton stations) on one of my antennas, It works very well here from about 5 miles North of Middletown, FWIW. I feed both antenna feeds to TV's and other "devices" in two seperate rooms, and TV's in 4 seperate rooms from the Dayton antenna.


Simply combining 2 antennas(aimed in different directions) together onto the same feedline is going to put the antennas out of phase+induce multipath difficulties, basically because the antenna that is aimed in the "wrong" direction is going to pick up a likely multipath laden signal from any given station "off the side ...." It's not much different than having what we call a "random wire" antenna, which is exactly what it sounds like.


You can of course, combine seperate VHF/UHF antennas onto the same feedline, with the use of a VHF/UHF joiner such as CM #0549.


Looking at antennaweb info for your zip code however, I notice that you must be a few miles East of Mt Adams+Downtown - Which spreads out the Cincinnati towers quite a bit :


WCVN-DT (KET - Tower near I-275 in Taylor mill KY) is shown at 213 degree bearing.


Most of the Cincinnati towers, which are within a mile or two of downtown(WLWT/WCET, WXIX/WPTO-DT, WCPO/WBQC/WOTH+WKRC) towers are shown at 254~266 degree bearing.


WSTR-DT (WB HD) is shown at 318 degree bearing, that's the "star tower" just West of 75 in Finneytown. Currently, unfortunetly they are at low power, and their directional antenna pattern/relative field values as shown on FCC site only indicates they are squirting only about 600 watts ERP in your direction. TBN LP translator, W61DE (analog) also currently transmits from near WSTR tower location.


So, That's a a difference of over 100 degrees for all the Cincinnati stations - Hopefully you'll be able to use one heading "in the middle" to aim at the "main" towers in the middle+still get enough of a "good" signal from WSTR/WCVN off the sides, so a 4 bay UHF bowtie antenna would probably be a good choice in this circumstance -- Still, reception of WSTR-DT especially may prove difficult with such "off target" antenna aiming from your location.


Hope this helps+let us know how it goes.


----------



## DLGlos




> Quote:
> The DB4 is not "multidirectional." That's a mistake on their website. However, a DB4 (or CM3021) does have a pretty wide acceptance angle, close to 60 degrees. If all you're after are the Cincinnati stations, any 4-bay bowtie should work just fine. You may need to experiment to find a direction that works best.




sregener


Thanks for that info. Like the price of the CM3021 too. Rats on the combining antennas issue though. A pair of the CM3021's would be less than adding a rotator. I'm figuring I might have to add a rotator as the two main directions to the transmitter clusters are roughly 90-100 degrees apart.


If I have to go with a rotator, should I perhaps consider a more directional Yagi type antenna (CM3022?)? Perhaps even one of the VHF/UHF combos might even be OK since signal strength won't likely be an issue?


I have a feeling multipath, and possibly a strong local FM station, might be my biggest issues. Of course, that is just theory till I get the actual TV and try.


Will also try the Cincinnati reception thread to see what some of those folks say.


Again, thanks.


David Glos


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by DLGlos_
> *
> 
> If I have to go with a rotator, should I perhaps consider a more directional Yagi type antenna (CM3022?)? Perhaps even one of the VHF/UHF combos might even be OK since signal strength won't likely be an issue?
> *



Well, for Cincinnati stations, and overall, a small~medium size VHF/UHF combo with rotor wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea, especially if you want good reception for the VHF analogs in the area. And, it should be pretty easy + inexpensive to change antennas later on, if you wish. However : #1). You still might be doing a lot less "rotoring" with a 4bay bowtie. #2). if you are looking for reception from say, the Dayton PBS digital station(which is on hi-UHF channel 58), the "extra" performance from a dedicated, hi-gain, directional UHF antenna such as a CM4248 Yagi, or CM4228 8-bay bowtie may be worthwhile.


So, you probably have a lot of options to consider, which Is partly why I provided more info for you on the stations in the area farther below. Given your proximity to strong Cincinnati TV/FM stations, A preamp is probably not a good idea, as I would imagine it is likely to have overload/intermod issues from the strong local signals.



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by DLGlos_
> *the two main directions to the transmitter clusters are roughly 90-100 degrees apart.
> *



Close, but not exactly.


So, this will probably be much more than you wanted to know but hopefully some of the below helps you out :


As I noted in my last post, of the Cincinnati stations, MOST of the Cincinnati stations are within a 10 degree heading or so from your location. The Following info is based on "center" of 45208 zip code, your exact location may vary a bit -- headings are adjusted for magnetic deviation(about +5.2 degrees from the true bearing) :


WKRC-DT 31 (analog 12) - CBS HD - 3.9 Miles at 254 deg.

WCPO-DT 10 (analog 9) - ABC HD - 3.5 miles at 263 deg.

WQBC-CA 25 ANALOG ONLY Currently - UPN - 3.5 miles at 263 deg.

WOTH-LP 38 ANALOG ONLY currently - IND - 3.5 miles at 263 deg.

WLWT-DT 35 (analog 5) NBC HD - 4.7 miles at 265 deg.

WCET-DT 34 (analog 48) PBS HD - 4.7 miles at 265 deg.

WXIX-DT 29(analog 19) - Fox HD - 6.2 miles At 266 deg.

WPTO-DT 28 - PBS HD - 6.2 miles at 266 deg.


WCPO/DT+WQBC+WOTH are on the same tower. WLWT/DT+WCET/DT are on the same tower. WXIX/DT+WPTO-DT are on the same tower.


WBQC-CA 25(UPN) is increasing analog power+ moving to Channel 38 around first of year, WOTH-LP is moving to 25+using WBQC's current facilities. Note that WOTH-LP was originally on channel 35, but was displaced by WLWT-DT. They moved to 39 first, but were displaced by WKOI-DT 39.


WCET-DT offers PBS HD channel nightly from 7pm~11pm+2 SD multicast services(simulcast of analog+PBS kids), at other times they offer 4 multicast SD services. WPTO-DT offers time shifted PBS HD programming only on Sat/sun nights 6pm~11pm, at all other times it is 4 channel SD multicast. WCPO-DT offers a multicast 24/7 local weather channel in addition to it's ABC HD+simulcast of analog 9(What isn't available in HD is upconverted to 720p - the other stations in the area also "simulcast" their analog station in this manner.


-----------------------------------------------------


THESE THREE Cincinnati OTA stations are the ones that are at significantly different bearings from your location:


WCVN-DT 24 (analog 54) - PBS HD/KET - 8.2 miles at 213 degrees

WSTR-DT 33 (analog 64) - WB HD - 6.5 miles at 318 degrees - *

W61DE 61 - ANALOG ONLY - TBN translator - 6.3 miles at 327 degrees.


WCVN-DT/KET offers PBS HD channel Mon-Sat 8pm-11pm nightly, Sun 7pm-11pm - It's plus 2 SD services - Simulcast of analog KET1 and KET2, the latter which is simulcast of WKMJ 68, Louisville, KY.


* - As noted in earlier post, WSTR-DT's transmitting antenna for their current low power digital operation does not favor the East/SE. They are currently squirting only about 600 watts ERP in your direction, according to technical info available on FCC site -- Which is probably receivable from your distance given a good, outdoor antenna setup+"on target" antenna aiming. However, there is also the additional factor of WCET-DT 34 operation on 1st adjacent channel 34 squirting about 215KW ERP in your direction, and it may be difficult for your receiver to be selective enough to "see" enough "good" signal on 33 from WSTR-DT for good results. While 1st adjacent channel digital stations can work quite well, it's best if they are co-located(which WCET/WSTR are not - they're several miles apart), AND aren't running "too much different" power levels -- For the most part, in most directions it's fine since WSTR-DT is sending out as much as 17.1KW ERP in most directions, the current potential exception being towards the East+SE of their tower. I don't believe I've heard any reports from your general area which have indicated good reception of WSTR-DT.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Other stations for which you are within the coverage area :


Oxford area:


WPTO 14 (analog) PBS Oxford - 30.3 miles At 333 degrees

WKOI 43 (analog) TBN - Tower near Oxford - approx 30 miles to your NNW - You are probably outside of the digital station(ch 39) coverage area currently due to their low power+directional antenna pattern, although the "back lobe" of the pattern does favor your direction, so if you are at all interested in this station you might have some luck. WKOI-DT is currently the only DTV station out of 15 in the area which does NOT offer HD.


Owenton KY:


WKON-DT 44(analog 52) - PBS/KET - 46.8 miles at 210 degrees - same KET statewide(KY) services as is provided from WCVN/WCVN-DT.


Louisville, KY:


WAVE 3 (analog) - NBC - 71 miles at 234 degrees. You are outside of their digital station(ch 47) coverage area, which transmits from a different, more distant location from Cincinnati. You are within WAVE 3's HUGE coverage area for a number of reasons -- Their HUGE tower(the tallest structure around these parts), and because of their hi-power lo-VHF channel 3 allocation.


Dayton, Ohio Area:


WDTN-DT 50(analog 2) - NBC HD - 41.2 miles at 18 degrees.

WHIO-DT 41 (analog 7) - CBS HD - 42.5 miles at 18 degrees.

WPTD-DT 58 (analog 16) - PBS HD - 41.6 miles at 18 degrees.

WKEF-DT 51 (analog 22) - ABC HD - 41.4 miles at 18 degrees

WBDT-DT 18 (analog 26) - WB HD - 41.8 miles at 18 degrees - *

WRGT-DT 30 (analog 45) - FOX HD - 41.8 miles at 18 degrees - *


WPTD-DT runs PBS HD Channel 6pm~6am nightly+2 SD services. from 6am~6pm, they are in 4 channel multicasting mode.


* - note - These two digital stations may be particularly difficult to achieve good reception results from your location due to first adjacent channel issues with Cincinnati stations, as well as power/directional transmitting antenna issues. For these stations especially, the more directional your antenna -- the more it "rejects" a good amount of signal from the adjacent channel "blow torch" Cincinnati stations off the side, the better chance you have at receiving them.


For more info on the SD multicast services offered by the local PBS stations, see the associated websites.


----------



## rashby

I just received a dish 921 receiver and trying to get ota hdtv with it. I am able to get a couple of stations but not consistent. I'm 70 miles south of evansville,In and 75 miles north of Nashville. I'm on top of a small hill with a 40ft tower with a radio shack uhf/vhf combo ant. and cm amp. From what I've read I'd be better off with a split system. My question is would I be better off with a yagi or the bow type and or double stacked yagi. right now I'm leaning towards either the cm4248, ac mxu59 or the 91xg. Has any one had any experience with one of these antennas at this type of distance. any help would be appreciated. Happy Holidays. Rodney


----------



## cpcat

I'd say you're best option would be the XG91 with CM 7775 or 7777 preamp and a CM 9251 rotor. The XG91 is generally felt to be an equivalent to antennas such as Televes, Blake, Funke, Triax available from the U.K. I wouldn't go with an 8-bay because of unacceptable wind load on your tower/rotor as well as the fact that with a Yagi/corner reflector you have the option of stacking later.


All of your digitals (BG and Paducah) are uhf,

except for NBC from Nashville on 10. You'd have a good shot at 10 with an antennacraft Y10 7-13 mounted below (at least 60 inches) your XG 91. In this case, you'll need the CM 7777 for separate uhf and vhf inputs. Winegard also makes a similar high band antenna.


For an even better high band antenna, see http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...ain/index.html 


If you need more for uhf, you could always stack later, but that's a job on a 40 foot tower.


Go to http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp and punch in your exact coordinates in decimal form for bearings to the towers. You'll need them for precise aiming.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by rashby_
> *right now I'm leaning towards either the cm4248, ac mxu59 or the 91xg. Has any one had any experience with one of these antennas at this type of distance. any help would be appreciated.*



The 4248 is an underperformer, in my opinion. I had a stack of two and it didn't match my Winegard 7084P for performance on UHF. I now use the 91XG and it works very well for me, although 70+ miles over rough terrain isn't easy and I don't get everything consistently.


From what I've read, either the antennasdirect 91XG or the DB8 would be a good choice to maximize your reception. Some believe the bowties are better when you don't have line-of-sight.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *I'd say you're best option would be the XG91 with CM 7775 or 7777 preamp and a CM 9251 rotor. The XG91 is generally felt to be an equivalent to antennas such as Televes, Blake, Funke, Triax available from the U.K. I wouldn't go with an 8-bay because of unacceptable wind load on your tower/rotor as well as the fact that with a Yagi/corner reflector you have the option of stacking later.*



I, too, would place the XG91 on a recommended list. I bought one a few months ago and performed some comparison tests between it and the CM 4221 (4-bay) and the CM 4228 (8-bay). The winner among these 3 antennas was the XG91.


I then conducted some comparisons between the XG91 and my permanent setup, two Triax Unix 100's in a horizontal stack. Because UHF signals can have so many hot and cold spots, it is really hard to judge one antenna against another one, even when the two antennas are at the same height and just a few feet apart. With this in mind and using a CM 7775/7777 on each setup, results were somewhat mixed. Some distant analog and digital stations (60 to 115 miles) were better with the Triax stack while some were actually better with the single XG91. From my location, Cincinnati stations (100 miles) were better with the Triax stack, while several times, along with some tropospheric assistance, Louisville stations (110 miles), especially digital, were better with the XG91. As a single antenna, the XG91 seems to work quite well.


Steve


----------



## rashby

sounds like the xg91 is the way to go. Has any one tried a horizontal or vertical stack with the xg91 or would this be a overkill. Rodney


----------



## tbb1226

Now, what do I do?










For reference, see my earlier issue in Post#367 


Current status: I managed to find a good position and direction (back to ~265º) to point the 4221 on top of the 10 foot mast and get all the stations I want with solid strength in good weather. I thought I had it licked, then had some problems during the next rainstorm. I noticed that it was moving quite a bit with the wind, and figured that wasn't helping matters. So, I added some guy wires, and now it's fairly wind resistant.


Problem now is that WXYZ-DT (channel 41 at 6.2 miles) has occasional audio dropouts and freezing video. It will look and sound fine for long periods of time (sometimes 20-30 minutes, sometimes several hours), then start hiccuping for a stretch, then be alright, and so on. When I check signal strength (HD-TiVo), it's always solidly above 80, but fluctuating with a range from, say 85 - 92. At no time do I get an indication that the signal is dropped. Adding an attenuator merely shifts the mean lower, keeping pretty much the same standard deviation. Same result when I turn the antenna further south.


I don't think I can move the mast, since this is such an intermittent problem, I don't know how I'd judge whether one spot is better than another. My only other thought is to remove the diplexers from the mix and run a straight antenna cable, but I don't know that diplexing would cause this kind of problem. Any other suggestions?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by tbb1226_
> *My only other thought is to remove the diplexers from the mix and run a straight antenna cable, but I don't know that diplexing would cause this kind of problem.*



That's probably your best choice. Diplexers are known to cause reception problems, and sometimes those problems aren't consistent.


Also check your weatherproofing on all your outdoor connections. Water on the connectors can cause problems.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Has any one tried a horizontal or vertical stack with the xg91 or would this be a overkill. Rodney



It wouldn't be overkill at your distance, but it might not be necessary. I'd try a single first if I were you. You're in fairly flat terrain out there and at 40 ft it may just do o.k. Like I said, you can always upgrade later if you desire. Horizontal stacking works better for digital reception in my experience, but I'm in hilly/mountainous terrain and multipath may be more of a problem for me than it would be for you (horizontal stacking deals with multipath by narrowing horizontal beamwidth).


----------



## tbb1226




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *That's probably your best choice. Diplexers are known to cause reception problems, and sometimes those problems aren't consistent.*



I was afraid you'd say that. It won't be that hard to do, but I don't like the feeling of poking yet another hole through my masonry. Not to mention adding another coax to the pile of cables behind my entertainment center......


Thanks, again, for taking the time to offer your advice.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by tbb1226_
> *Now, what do I do?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For reference, see my earlier issue in Post#367
> 
> 
> Current status: I managed to find a good position and direction (back to ~265º) to point the 4221 on top of the 10 foot mast and get all the stations I want with solid strength in good weather. I thought I had it licked, then had some problems during the next rainstorm. I noticed that it was moving quite a bit with the wind, and figured that wasn't helping matters. So, I added some guy wires, and now it's fairly wind resistant.
> 
> 
> Problem now is that WXYZ-DT (channel 41 at 6.2 miles) has occasional audio dropouts and freezing video. It will look and sound fine for long periods of time (sometimes 20-30 minutes, sometimes several hours), then start hiccuping for a stretch, then be alright, and so on. When I check signal strength (HD-TiVo), it's always solidly above 80, but fluctuating with a range from, say 85 - 92. At no time do I get an indication that the signal is dropped. Adding an attenuator merely shifts the mean lower, keeping pretty much the same standard deviation. Same result when I turn the antenna further south.
> 
> 
> I don't think I can move the mast, since this is such an intermittent problem, I don't know how I'd judge whether one spot is better than another. My only other thought is to remove the diplexers from the mix and run a straight antenna cable, but I don't know that diplexing would cause this kind of problem. Any other suggestions?*



Have you tried reaiming during such a rainstorm? My guess is somewhere nearby the rain is ultimately leading to some intermittent reflections of the signal giving you multipath issues.


Diplexers might result in a slight signal loss (very slight), but shouldn't be a cause of this sort of behavior.


----------



## hew2nd

According to Antennaweb.org I'm about 50 miles from the antennas. I have just purchased (but not yet received) a Mitsibushi Diamond 65" HDTV. I'm wondering if aZenith Silver Sensor Digital Antenna will work. (This would help me save the ridicuolus $50 charge Comcast charges for delivering the set top box.) Besides, I've got the tuner in the TV so I might as well use it if I can.

Thanks

Harry


----------



## tbb1226

My current issue seems to be independent of weather. In fact, I'm not even sure that it's reception-related. Two subchannels on the same frequency (weather radar and ABCNewsNow) are not exhibiting these dropout symptoms at all. Some cable subscribers in the area have started reporting similar problems with their WXYZ-HD audio and video, too. I don't know what might be causing it, but I'm not convinced it's an antenna problem anymore.










If I figure it out, I'll post back here. Thanks, again.


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## Jon_Patrick

Here is my antena web info, i have over 80% reception on 8, 17, 41 but i cant even get an image on 3. Any suggestions

http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/Address.aspx


----------



## Jon_Patrick

sorry, try 49007 in zip code


----------



## Jon_Patrick

ok i am using a medium multi directional antena, what if i bump up to a large directional antenna with a line amplifier, while i see a big difference in reception?


----------



## tbb1226

Your "channel 3" is actually broadcast on channel 2 (low VHF), while all the rest of your local digitals are either UHF or high VHF. Going directional should help, but make sure you also look at frequency response of the antenna, and get a combo that has good gain in all bands.


----------



## jimc705

hew

Don't think an indoor antenna is going to do a good job at that distance. Make sure you can return it if it doesn't work. Here's the best indoor UHF available from Radio Shack special order or ebay at this link.
http://cgi.*********/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...734755989&rd=1 

You probably need an outdoor UHF antenna for reliable reception at 50 miles. For $50 you can get an excellent outdoor antenna if you mount it yourself.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> ok i am using a medium multi directional antena, what if i bump up to a large directional antenna with a line amplifier, while i see a big difference in reception?



You may not need the amplifier at that distance. You need at least a medium directional and a large directional would be safer. An option would be a vhf/uhf combo such as the CM 3016 : http://www.channelmaster.com/home.htm with a CM 9251 rotator.

Here's a link to gain figures from CM on their Advantage antennas:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg4.htm 


They both should be available at Lowe's.


Multidirectional antennas just don't work that well.


----------



## grouper

wondering if anyone in here has used the winegard ss2000, and how the vhf performance is. I'm 40 miles from the towers. or is there a better all around antenna

thanks


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by grouper_
> *wondering if anyone in here has used the winegard ss2000, and how the vhf performance is. I'm 40 miles from the towers. or is there a better all around antenna*



At 40 miles, if you need both VHF and UHF reception, you should get a medium-to-large VHF/UHF combo antenna, not a fancy little box, even one as fancy as the Winegard SS2000. Probably the SS2000 would work okay on high-VHF (channels 7-13) though not great, and it would work poorly or not at all on channels 2-6.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by grouper_
> *wondering if anyone in here has used the winegard ss2000, and how the vhf performance is. I'm 40 miles from the towers. or is there a better all around antenna
> 
> thanks*



Your location is_________? It is much easier for members to pass along recommendations when they can assess your particular stations, terrain, etc. Thanks.


Steve


----------



## blackngold19




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by hew2nd_
> *According to Antennaweb.org I'm about 50 miles from the antennas. I have just purchased (but not yet received) a Mitsibushi Diamond 65" HDTV. I'm wondering if aZenith Silver Sensor Digital Antenna will work. (This would help me save the ridicuolus $50 charge Comcast charges for delivering the set top box.) Besides, I've got the tuner in the TV so I might as well use it if I can.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Harry*



Good luck with the Silver Sensor at 50 mi. I used it at 35 mi and got CBS at around 70% and ABC in the mid 60's. You have to get outside for best results.


----------



## blackngold19




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by grouper_
> *wondering if anyone in here has used the winegard ss2000, and how the vhf performance is. I'm 40 miles from the towers. or is there a better all around antenna
> 
> thanks*



I am currently using the SS, but I don't think I have any available VHF digital channels from my tower. All I can say is that it works fairly well on UHF for its size at 35 miles.


----------



## darimont

Sorry, but I posted this by itself then found that it belongs here I think.


Samsung 360 overdriving with antenna?


I live in Aurora Illinois about 45 miles from Chicago and have a 40 ft tower with a winegard, I forget what model, but its the next down form there biggest with a winegard preamp mounted on the mast. It seems that if I unplug the preamp that the signal goes up for all the dt channels, but I loose 2.1. With the amp plugged in channel 2.1 is about 70 %, but the others are at 50 %. With out the amp the others go to 90% but I then loose 2.1. My question is, could I be over driving the 360's tuner and the tuner is clamping the other channels? Does anyone have any ideas? With the amp plugged in the other channels are stable. Will over driving the tuner hurt anything?


Just found the numbers, Antenna HD7084p , (edited) Amp ap-8700 I had the wrong amp #


Thanks

Dan


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by darimont_
> *Will over driving the tuner hurt anything?
> *



Just your reception.


Sounds like you should replace the amp you have with a AP-3700.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by darimont_
> *Sorry, but I posted this by itself then found that it belongs here I think.
> 
> 
> Samsung 360 overdriving with antenna?
> 
> 
> I live in Aurora Illinois about 45 miles from Chicago and have a 40 ft tower with a winegard, I forget what model, but its the next down form there biggest with a winegard preamp mounted on the mast. It seems that if I unplug the preamp that the signal goes up for all the dt channels, but I loose 2.1. With the amp plugged in channel 2.1 is about 70 %, but the others are at 50 %. With out the amp the others go to 90% but I then loose 2.1. My question is, could I be over driving the 360's tuner and the tuner is clamping the other channels? Does anyone have any ideas? With the amp plugged in the other channels are stable. Will over driving the tuner hurt anything?
> 
> 
> Just found the numbers, Antenna HD7084p , Amp ap-2880
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Dan*



Dan,


Your situation sounds very much like the one I used to experience with a couple of stations in my area. Some STB's have small built-in signal amplifiers, so when you add the amplification from the preamp it can be a little too much for the receiver, or at least I found this to be true. I had one station that would actually register "0" (zero) signal strength on the meter when the preamped signal was full-strength. Then I added a RS variable attenuator to the incoming cable. When I reduced the signal just a little, the signal strength meter shot up and I had a great, stable signal level. I'm using the RCA DTC-100 and the LG LST-3100A, and my preamp is the CM 7775.


This might help you out. My 2 cents.


Steve


----------



## darimont

Thanks for the replies guys.


goldrich,

I may try what you said about the RS variable attenuator first, before spending another $60 bucks on different amp. If I can reach some kind of balance between the 2.


sregener,

I looked up the 3700 and I think I may give that a try, as I see it only amps VHF. 2.1 is vhf and the rest of mine are up in uhf range. I may try taking it out as I know when you just unplug it you loose more the if you take it out. Is there a way to just attenuate UHF? I don't like going up the tower unless I have to.


I just wanted to make sure i wasn't going to fry my tuner until i can get this corrected.


Dan


----------



## cmassa

I've recently purchased a Sony 55XS955 and am extremely happy with it but I need to do something about my antenna, currently a Terk TV50 in my attic (I know, I know). Here are my results for digital stations from antennaweb.org (zip 95973)


KHSL-DT 43.1 CBS CHICO CA 30° 14.1 43

KNVN-DT 36.1 NBC CHICO CA 326° 32.1 36

KCVU-DT 30.1 FOX PARADISE CA 29° 14.6 20

KRCR-DT 34.1 ABC REDDING CA 308° 67.0 34

KIXE-DT 9.1 PBS REDDING CA 308° 67.0 18



I currently get the NBC digital station quite well. Most of the time the CBS digital station has lots of ghost images and I watch the analog channel (12) which also has a few faint ghosts. Funny, when the analog station has bad ghosting, the digital channel is clear. I was getting the FOX digital station well but it is now gone after moving the antenna around some (It is back in its original location and orientation.) I have received the digital PBS for only a few seconds once. I have not gotten the ABC station at all. The analog ABC and PBS stations (7 and 9) are quite snowy as is my UPN station (22 - analog only). Most of the digital stations are just converting their analog channel but TitanTV lists ABC as broadcasting HDTV which I would really like to get. I don't know what power level it is broadcasting and it is 67 miles away. Sacramento stations are a bit far, probably at least 90 miles or more.


I would like to keep the install simple. Inside the attic would be best. I would prefer not to use a rotor (if possible) to keep use of the system easy for the family. I don't think my wife would like changing the antenna direction every time we changed channel. Would something like a DB8 from antennasdirect work? I have a first floor attic over my garage and a second floor attic over the house to use, both have RG6 cables in them. Would I need an amp/preamp? If mounted outside, I would want to keep it low to the roof for asthetics.


Thanks for any recommendations.


Chris


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by darimont_
> *Sorry, but I posted this by itself then found that it belongs here I think.
> 
> 
> Samsung 360 overdriving with antenna?
> 
> 
> I live in Aurora Illinois about 45 miles from Chicago and have a 40 ft tower with a winegard, I forget what model, but its the next down form there biggest with a winegard preamp mounted on the mast. It seems that if I unplug the preamp that the signal goes up for all the dt channels, but I loose 2.1. With the amp plugged in channel 2.1 is about 70 %, but the others are at 50 %. With out the amp the others go to 90% but I then loose 2.1. My question is, could I be over driving the 360's tuner and the tuner is clamping the other channels? Does anyone have any ideas? With the amp plugged in the other channels are stable. Will over driving the tuner hurt anything?
> 
> 
> Just found the numbers, Antenna HD7084p , Amp ap-2880
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Dan*



High power WESH on Ch60 is in Aurora,and swamping your preamp most likely.


----------



## cpcat

cmassa,


Your only chance for ABC is outside with the best possible antenna setup for distance. It's likely only at 26 kw and with an eventual "full power" of 166kw. I can't tell whether you're in the 41dbu service window because you didn't post your location, but most likely not.


The DB8 outside on a rotor with a preamp such as CM 777x series would be a start, but 26 kw at 67 miles will require some very favorable topography.


See http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=KRCR for the info on that ABC station.


----------



## darimont




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by darimont_
> *Thanks for the replies guys.
> 
> 
> goldrich,
> 
> I may try what you said about the RS variable attenuator first, before spending another $60 bucks on different amp. If I can reach some kind of balance between the 2.
> 
> 
> sregener,
> 
> I looked up the 3700 and I think I may give that a try, as I see it only amps VHF. 2.1 is vhf and the rest of mine are up in uhf range. I may try taking it out as I know when you just unplug it you loose more the if you take it out. Is there a way to just attenuate UHF? I don't like going up the tower unless I have to.
> 
> 
> I just wanted to make sure i wasn't going to fry my tuner until i can get this corrected.
> 
> 
> Dan*



goldrich and sregener,


I tried the RS attenuator last night and it worked. I have it turned all the way up and even 2.1 is good. I had the wrong number for the amp, its a ap-8700 which is 17db for VHF and 19 for uhf, with the antenuator all the way up its a 20db cut, so this tells me I don't need the amp. I must have been losing alot buy just unplugging the power supply for the preamp, at this point it lookes like I'll be taking the amp out when I feel like going back up the tower.


Thanks Again

Dan


----------



## cmassa

cpcat,


Thanks for the info. I am located on the north side of Chico. At 26 kw I am outside their service window. At the eventual 166 kw I am inside the service window. The terrain around here is flat. Redding is at the north end of the Sacramento Valley in the foothills. My elevation here is about 150 ft. The transmitters are are at 1900 ft on top of a hill (small mountain?) and about 1000 ft above the average terrain. So at 26 kw, being outside the service window, is it even possible to receive? If I eliminated the Redding digital stations, would a DB8 clear up my reception of other stations?


Chris



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *cmassa,
> 
> 
> Your only chance for ABC is outside with the best possible antenna setup for distance. It's likely only at 26 kw and with an eventual "full power" of 166kw. I can't tell whether you're in the 41dbu service window because you didn't post your location, but most likely not.
> 
> 
> The DB8 outside on a rotor with a preamp such as CM 777x series would be a start, but 26 kw at 67 miles will require some very favorable topography.
> 
> 
> See http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=KRCR for the info on that ABC station.*


----------



## DavoM

Hey Guys,


I'm in Lehigh Acres, Florida and I am trying to receive UPN programming on from a station in a neighboring community, WTVX in Fort Peirce. We have a real problem with our UPN affiliates in my area and I'm a big Enterprise fan. I'd love to see this show in HD.


For those of you technically inclined I'm wanting to know what it will take to get this channel.


If I've done the math right, it looks like I'm barely over 100 miles from WTVX's transmitter, their tower's height is about 1500 feet, my house's elevation is about 20 feet, and my compass orientation is about 54 degrees. I already have a large directional antenna in the attic pointing the other way picking up the locals from my area, but I'd like to get WTVX as well.


I've looked at the FCC's website and if I'm reading this correctly, it looks like their analog channel has an ERP of 5000 kw, and the digital channel has an ERP of 704 kw. I'm trying to confirm if this is current information w/ the guys in the West Palm thread.


1. Given the wattage and distance I am from the tower, is is this even possible? Is there any other option besides a large roof mounted directional antenna?


2. How does one go about using two separate antennas on a receiver like my HDTivo? Do I need a combiner / splitter? Will I need an amp too?


3. I've heard signals are easier to pick up at night. Is that correct and why?


Thanks in advance for the help.


Peace,


DM


----------



## cmassa

When installing a new rotor, does a control wire have to be run or can the signal run on the coax? If installing a rotor, running a new wire to my home theater will be very difficult. Could I use unused pairs in a Cat5 wire which is supplying telephone and is already in place?


Chris


----------



## squid90

New to the forum and wonder about experiences with nearby radio towers and interference with OTA reception. Haven't purchased an antenna yet, but antennaweb indicates a potential for reception of digital and analog stations.


The radio tower resides approximately 1 mile west of my home and primary local signals from KC are nearly 180 degrees opposite direction. I realize probable difference in frequency spectrum but defer to those more knowledgeable by experience or otherwise.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by DavoM_
> *1. Given the wattage and distance I am from the tower, is is this even possible? Is there any other option besides a large roof mounted directional antenna?
> 
> 
> 2. How does one go about using two separate antennas on a receiver like my HDTivo? Do I need a combiner / splitter? Will I need an amp too?
> 
> 
> 3. I've heard signals are easier to pick up at night. Is that correct and why?
> *



1. Possible? Yes. Probable? No. Darn-near-impossible? Yup. But if you have really flat land between you and the broadcasting tower, are willing to get a very-large UHF antenna (think 8-9' long) and put it up as high as your local codes allow (probably between 50-70') you have a shot.


2. You'd use a Channel Master "Jointenna" for the channel number you're trying to get. It has two inputs and one output - one input for the specific channel number you want to receive, and one for everything else.


3. It's been my experience that nighttime reception is better than daytime. A large part of this is the sun's action on the troposphere, which is where all long-distance reception of UHF signals comes from.


I have a 54' tower, an AntennasDirect91XG, a 28db UHF preamp, and I get stations from as far away as 89 miles, on a good day. On a bad day, anything beyond 60 miles is iffy. My terrain is average (somewhat hilly) and my location is not very high.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cmassa_
> *When installing a new rotor, does a control wire have to be run or can the signal run on the coax? If installing a rotor, running a new wire to my home theater will be very difficult. Could I use unused pairs in a Cat5 wire which is supplying telephone and is already in place?*



A rotor control wire contains 3 leads. Phone wire can work in some cases, but if it gets very cold where you are, there may not be enough conductivity to get that power (12V) up there. Also, if you use the rotor while on the phone, the voltage could easily bleed over and disrupt your telephone conversation.


Coax only has two connections, so it can't be used to run a rotor.


----------



## jimc705

Davo,


Your talking a 100 miles is possible but highly unlikely to to the curveture of the earth. Here's a link to the coverage area for WTVX. If your in the coverage area you should get it fairly easy. Outside but still close to the line 50/50 chance. Way outside forget it.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DT616115.html 


At that distance you would need to probably stack UHF antenna with a amp. Considerable investment for one channel. Good Luck.


----------



## jimc705

enoree,
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DT595738.html 

coverage map for char;otte fox. You're on the very edge of reception.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DT618270.html 

also very edge of reception.


If you ditch the rat shack amps and get a good cm 7777 and a cm 4228 or antennas direct xg91 I think you'll get Columbia. You can order the antennas direct xg 91 and return it if it doesn't work. Best gurantee of any antenna manufacturer. The rat shack amps have too much noise for very low signal level. The CM has 2.0 Rat Shack typically higher then 4 db and at UHF about 6 to 8 DB a lot of noise. You still may only get evening reception but I think it will lock and look good.

Scrape the rat shack preamps ant UHF antenna.


----------



## DavoM

Jim,


Thanks for the help.


Peace,


DM


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> So at 26 kw, being outside the service window, is it even possible to receive? If I eliminated the Redding digital stations, would a DB8 clear up my reception of other stations?



Cmassa,

It's possible. Most likely you'll not get consistent reception until they go full power whatever you do, though. You should get more consistent reception on the closer stations anyway if you go outside. The DB8 probably is the best single broadband uhf option for distance. The disadvantage to an 8-bay is it acts like a sail and presents a fair amount of wind load to the rotor and mount. Another option would be a yagi/corner reflector such as the xg91. You'll give up some minimal gain below ch. 40 compared with the 8-bay but it's lighter and easier on the installation. You can also get another and stack them later if you need more antenna.


----------



## ticoar

Whats the best method for splitting the antenna signal to reach multiple tv's?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ticoar_
> *Whats the best method for splitting the antenna signal to reach multiple tv's?*



Get a low-loss splitter. The fewer splits, the better. Radio Shack has a nice $10 splitter that has 3.5db of loss (theretically close to the minimum loss possible.) They have a 3-way splitter that costs 4.5db of loss per connector, but mine caused too much loss on very-weak stations. If you have strong signals, any splitter will work fine. If you have weak ones, splitting a signal even once may cause problems.


Avoid amplified splitters unless nothing else works.


----------



## Pokelahoma

Ok, I am 19mi from the field of stations here in Tulsa, OK (74119) with a 40ft building in my line of sight, 100ft from my antenna on the roof. My equipment is an RCA DTC-210 D* box and an FM trap with 100ft of cable to my RCA 58 UHF/VHF antenna on the top of my roof. I have been able to get these results.


Chan Station Network Compass Dist Freq Tower Power My reception

8.1 KTUL-DT ABC 114° 23.9 10 1779 ft 7kw 80%

23.1 KOKI-DT FOX 109° 19.0 22 1312 ft 1,000kw 40%

11.1 KOED-DT PBS 109° 19.3 38 1299 ft 500 kw 70%

41.1 KTFO-DT UPN 109° 19.0 42 1250 ft 900 kw 0%

6.1 KOTV-DT CBS 109° 19.3 55 1609 ft 300 kw 80%

2.1 KJRH-DT NBC 109° 19.3 56 1657 ft 800 kw 80%


I tried an CM 7777 amp and it cuts out all my channels to 0%, I also tried a Radio Shack variable attenuator and that does nothing to most channels even if I turn it all the way up to max attenuation, but other than that does not affect the # of channels I get. My analog channels seem to have ghosting but I am not sure how to get rid of that (I have aimed the ant in every direction).


I hooked up a $10 bottom of the line UHF/VHF rabbit ear set and stuck it by my window and got these results


Chan Station Network Compass Dist Freq Tower Power My reception

8.1 KTUL-DT ABC 114° 23.9 10 1779 ft 7kw 70%

23.1 KOKI-DT FOX 109° 19.0 22 1312 ft 1,000kw 80%

11.1 KOED-DT PBS 109° 19.3 38 1299 ft 500 kw 70%

41.1 KTFO-DT UPN 109° 19.0 42 1250 ft 900 kw 90%

6.1 KOTV-DT CBS 109° 19.3 55 1609 ft 300 kw 80%

2.1 KJRH-DT NBC 109° 19.3 56 1657 ft 800 kw 10%



So basically my rabbit ears are performing as well if not better than my tripod mounted, 20ft off the ground, 58 long boom, combo antenna.


I don't want to have to haul out the rabbit ears every time I want to watch UPN or Fox. Man this project has been a nightmare. Any advice on what to do from the experts here?


-A very frustrated Pokelahoma


----------



## blackngold19




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Pokelahoma_
> *Ok, I am 19mi from the field of stations here in Tulsa, OK (74119) with a 40ft building in my line of sight, 100ft from my antenna on the roof. My equipment is an RCA DTC-210 D* box and an FM trap with 100ft of cable to my RCA 58” UHF/VHF antenna on the top of my roof. I have been able to get these results.
> 
> 
> Chan Station Network Compass Dist Freq Tower Power My reception
> 
> 8.1 KTUL-DT ABC 114° 23.9 10 1779 ft 7kw 80%
> 
> 23.1 KOKI-DT FOX 109° 19.0 22 1312 ft 1,000kw 40%
> 
> 11.1 KOED-DT PBS 109° 19.3 38 1299 ft 500 kw 70%
> 
> 41.1 KTFO-DT UPN 109° 19.0 42 1250 ft 900 kw 0%
> 
> 6.1 KOTV-DT CBS 109° 19.3 55 1609 ft 300 kw 80%
> 
> 2.1 KJRH-DT NBC 109° 19.3 56 1657 ft 800 kw 80%
> 
> 
> I tried an CM 7777 amp and it cuts out all my channels to 0%, I also tried a Radio Shack variable attenuator and that does nothing to most channels even if I turn it all the way up to max attenuation, but other than that does not affect the # of channels I get. My analog channels seem to have ghosting but I am not sure how to get rid of that (I have aimed the ant in every direction).
> 
> 
> I hooked up a $10 bottom of the line UHF/VHF rabbit ear set and stuck it by my window and got these results…
> 
> 
> Chan Station Network Compass Dist Freq Tower Power My reception
> 
> 8.1 KTUL-DT ABC 114° 23.9 10 1779 ft 7kw 70%
> 
> 23.1 KOKI-DT FOX 109° 19.0 22 1312 ft 1,000kw 80%
> 
> 11.1 KOED-DT PBS 109° 19.3 38 1299 ft 500 kw 70%
> 
> 41.1 KTFO-DT UPN 109° 19.0 42 1250 ft 900 kw 90%
> 
> 6.1 KOTV-DT CBS 109° 19.3 55 1609 ft 300 kw 80%
> 
> 2.1 KJRH-DT NBC 109° 19.3 56 1657 ft 800 kw 10%
> 
> 
> 
> So basically my rabbit ears are performing as well if not better than my tripod mounted, 20ft off the ground, 58” long boom, combo antenna.
> 
> 
> I don’t want to have to haul out the rabbit ears every time I want to watch UPN or Fox. Man this project has been a nightmare. Any advice on what to do from the experts here?
> 
> 
> -A very frustrated Pokelahoma
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Sounds like multipath issues. At that range you shouldn't need a huge antenna. I recommend going to a Best Buy ( I know you have them out there , I've been to Norman and OKC) and trying out the Winegard Square Shooter. They actually sell it in a Terk Box. Move the antenna around your roof area to try and get the best signal possible. Once you find the right spot you'll know it. What helped me is the signal strength meter on my Dish 811. Also, for a distribution amp, I purchased a Winegard 04050 for $60, and it bumped up all my signals by 5%. You can read up on all antenna topics here: www.antennasdirect.com


----------



## Pokelahoma

blackngold19,


I thought about the squareshooter but then I would lose my VHF channel (ABC). I am thinking of trying a better set of rabbit ears like the RS 15-1880.


----------



## greywolf

The SqS doesn't do as well as other popular UHF antennas. The Terk labeled version adds 50% to the cost of an already too expensive antenna.


----------



## jimc705

pokelahoma,


I had a similar problem. The higher I went the worse the signal.

I'd try an antennas direct xg91 UHF antenna on a 10 foot mast and try different spots on your property. I recommend this antenna for it is low wind resistance, very light, has extremely high gain on the upper UHF channels. The best part if it doesn't work you can return it for full credit. The best antenna warranty in the business. It may also pick up the high VHF channel 10 at your distance. I'm 7 miles from channel 2 VHF here and it receives channel 2 very well. You may not need a VHF antenna. It may take some time and patience to find the exact location. Also try different heights. A few feet one way or the other may make the difference. You probably find a sweet spot where you'll get all the channels well but may scrafice some signal strength on others.


The preamp is probably over loading the receiver for you are very close to some channels (especially channel 8 dt 10). I have a problem with channel 2 here. It wipes out everything from it's direction including the UHF digitals and I have no amp. You are almost pointing right at channel 8's tower. If you find you need an amp, you'll need something with less gain and high front end input. Winegard 8700 has both. WWW.winegard.com or see link below. Note the high input voltage for strong signals and less db gain.
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/Chart29.pdf 


May also try the 4700 for it just passes VHF with no amplification. I think you being 10 miles from channel 8 DT 10 is overloading. A UHF only antenna will also help solve this problem.


I know this sounds dumb but make sure the antenna is pointing in the right direction. The large VHF elements should be pointing away ( if V formation) or be at the opposite end from the station you are trying to get. If you're not sure turn it 180 degrees and try again. You don't know how many people do this wrong and waist a service call for aiming the antenna.


I see no reason for KTFO at 90% on the ears and 0 on the combo other then the digtal may have been off air . Digitals do go off air more so then analog. They have transmitter problems, or some stations only run at certain times of the day. I've seen digitals here off air for days at a time. In very rare cases you can get a bad antenna. about 1 in a million though.


I'd also double check the f connectors and make sure no wires are touching . One strand from the ground to the center conductor is all it takes to kill reception. I've also seen people swear it's correct and you take the f connector off and find the center conductor bent over and not in the center hole.


Here's their link to KTFO coverage area.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DT618058.html 


You can also check the other stations coverage area to be sure you're in their coverage area at this link.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/tvq.html 

Just punch in the call sign then click on DT channel and map (41dbu) coverage.


I believe this will solve your problem. I'd start with checking connections for that is free.


If possible try moving your combo antenna around the yard and roof. Most combos are difficult to do this for they are huge. Your's being only 58 inches you may be able to do this. The RCA antennas are under performers and just may not do the job. Especially on UHF/VHF at 58 inches and the furtherest station at 56 miles this is where they usually save money and put a short distance UHF on a combo antenna. Seperates will do a much better job.

I don't think you need an amp if you get 10% on the weakest channel of the ears. Try first with no amp. You can always add an amp later if needed. If you do need an amp you almost certainly will need a UHF only amp. Your VHF channel is too close thus the problem with the 7777 CM. I think you can use the 7777 as a UHF only by changing switches inside the amp. You can try that but I think with 28DB gain you still might overload even on UHF.


If all else fails try the xg91. It's one of the best yagis on the market and has a lifetime warranty. Good luck I hope this helps.


----------



## Pokelahoma

Thanks for the advice Jimc I have totally replaced all my cables and connectors already, and I also have my antenna aimed correctly and have tried every other direction. I am positive that the Fox and UPN channels were broadcasting since I can pick them up on the little loop fine.


I tried a better set of rabbit ears (the RS 15-1880) and got zero channels, so now I am definitely leaning toward doing a separate UHF and VHF antenna. I am listed as 23.9 miles away from my VHF ABC DT 10 channel so I am not sure if I would be able to make do with just a VHF antenna or not, or if they are overpowering me. I am unsure about buying an xg91 though since it seems to be rated for extreme fringe and I am 20mi from my towers and seem to be able to attenuate 20db off most of my channels and still receive them fine. Fox DT 22 and UPN DT 42 are my only problem channels. Those channels seem to love the simple loop antenna and not my big antenna.


Thanks.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Pokelahoma_
> *I am unsure about buying an xg91 though since it seems to be rated for extreme fringe and I am 20mi from my towers and seem to be able to attenuate 20db off most of my channels and still receive them fine.*



The "larger" antennas have two things going for them. First, they have high gain. But secondly, they are very directional. (As Mark Twain would say, "But I repeat myself." Seriously. The higher the gain, the more directional the antenna. Fact. Period. This can help with multipath, but I don't think it would solve the issue in your location.


My best advice would be to try a 4-bay bowtie (Antennas Direct DB4, Channel Master 3021 or Winegard PR-4400) antenna. But even that may not work.


You may be one of those people who really need a 5th-generation LG STB to get reliable reception. They're supposed to be out 1st quarter 2005, so rather than playing with antennas forever, a different tuner could solve all your problems. The 5th-generation chipset supposedly fixes almost all reception problems related to multipath (ghosting on analog.)


----------



## cpcat

Originally posted by Pokelahoma

I am unsure about buying an xg91 though since it seems to be rated for extreme fringe and I am 20mi from my towers and seem to be able to attenuate 20db off most of my channels and still receive them fine.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You're FOX is only 4kw right now which could explain your problem there. The inconsistency you found when you tried the other indoor antenna is likely due to tropospheric variation. The unusual event was likely the reception on the indoor bowtie initially. Here's the FOX station info from the FCC: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=KOKI. At 20 miles, you're within the 41dbu window but that assumes an adequate outdoor antenna.


UPN is supposedly at full power and so I'm a little surprised at your problem there. Assuming they don't have a problem with their transmitter, it's likely multipath as others have said. There are two ways to overcome multipath: higher gain and narrower beamwidth. Luckily, you get both as you go up in antenna size.

I wouldn't go with a 4-bay. You need either a large, directional yagi/corner reflector like the xg91(and others) or an 8-bay bowtie such as the CM 4228.

The 8-bay would more likely recieve ch. 10 so maybe that should be your choice. Don't use a preamp (will make multipath worse) and I wouldn't worry about overloading the reciever as long as you don't. If that still doesn't work and you don't want to wait for the 5th gen. receiver chips, you may have to stack. See http://www.atechfabrication.com/reception_solutions.htm for other ways to deal with multipath.


----------



## Chad0429

Quick question - I'm looking at the Winegard models (VHF/UHF/FM) for my attic.


I'm 40-45 miles out from both UHF and VHF broadcasts. Am I better off getting the top end that is rated at


HD8200P or PR7052

Deep Fringe

VHF = 100 Miles

UHF = 60 Miles


or


HD7084P or PR-7042

Fringe

VHF = 80 Miles

UHF = 45 Miles


Both are within my ranges but the lower one is closer to it's limits.


Do I stand a better chance of getting good reception with the larger of the two (if it will fit in my attic)?


Is there going to be any problems with an antenna that gets FM plus the others too? Do they make just a UHF/VHF with no FM? Will there be interference issues?


Do I need other equipment - my TV has an OTA tuner built in.


Thanks and sorry for the barrage of questions.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> HD8200P or PR7052



You might as well save yourself some time and forget the attic at that distance. You might get inconsistent reception but chances of getting consistent reception are low. The ratings you mention are approximations and refer to the antenna installed *outside*.


If you want a combo antenna, go with the 8200p; you can't have too much antenna.


Another option would be to go separate uhf and vhf, like a CM 4228 and a 10 or 5 element high band (7-13) vhf antenna (I don't know if you need low band 'cause I don't know where you are). If you need low band (2-6), best stick with the combo antenna but you can get better performance from separating them. If separate, you'll need a vhf/uhf diplexer like the CM 0549 or you might consider the CM 7777 preamp at that distance (depending on the length of your cable run, >50 ft I'd go with the preamp in your case). The CM 7777 will diplex for you or also has a combined input if you go with the combo.


FM interference is a concern. If you use the CM 7777 it has an FM trap built in. If not, you might need an FM trap (Winegard makes one).


Other than the antenna, etc., it looks like that's all you'll need.


----------



## HalfCracked

couple of questions...


Is there a qualatative difference between a Terk HDTVi pro (yeah I know) & a Zenith Silver sensor? Besides the price that is?


What can I do to deal with Extreme multiplexing? Counted as many as 6 ghosts on analog 26. (tried an anttenuator)


How do you check for multiplexing on a digital channel? if I can't see it how do I use "non-Intuitive antenna directions".










for reference see my posts (#264 & 266) in the Houston OTA thread.


----------



## jimc705

half cracked,


Personally I stay far away from anything made by terk. Their antennas are extreme under peformers. The Zenith silver sensor is a very good indoor antenna but if you have multipath it may not help much.


If you have ghost on analog you more then likely have a multipath on digital from the same direction. You can sometimes tell by the signal strength bar / percentage number, if you receiver has one, while on a digital channel. If it varies widely 0 to 60 , 40 to 80 etc. then you more then likely have multipath.


The only solution for multipath is to get a good directional antenna and get up as high as you possibly can. Multipath is tv signals being reflected of buildings trees etc to arrive at your antenna at different time. This is why you see ghost on the analog channel. Like drivng a car straight 2 miles or going another route and going 4 miles to get to the same point. It takes longer to go 4 miles and you'll arrive later then the 2 mile route. Also weaker (less gas).


I don't know how close you are to the transmitters but the silver sensor

is suppose to be somewhat dirrectional and if very close it may do the job.

Be sure you can return it if it doesn't. The best indoor while some what ugly is the double bow tie available from radio shack by special order only.
http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...%5Fid=930-0998 


If this doesn't do it then you must go outside for reception. Check with antennaweb.org first and see what comes up. Good Luck.


----------



## jimc705

Chad,


If you put the antenna in the attic you may have severe multipath issues and you loose up to 40% or more efficency of the antenna. Thus a 100 mile rating quickly drops to 60 miles even without the multipath issues. The mileage ratings on antennas are a guideline and not gospel. Most are rated over flat terrain or water and do not give you real life situtations. Channel Master and Winegard do rate theirs over average terrain. Whats average? beats me. Cheaper brands rate theirs over water for maxium reception.


Seperate antennas will give you better reception as CP cat metioned. If you just want digital reception then you may only need a UHF and not need a VHF. UHF antennas are much cheaper and you can save a bunch of money. Go to antennaweb.org and plug in your address to see what channels your digitals are on, most are UHF. The seperate antennas CPcat recommends are about the best in the industry and should have no problems at your distance.


If you must go with a combo the 8200 will more then do the job. I have the hd7084p over moutaineous terrain and pick up very good and reliable digital and analog reception out to 70+ miles with no amp. The mountains in that direction are distant though about 1 mile or more from my antenna. The other direction I'm about half way up a hill, and must tilt the antenna 15 degrees to get up and over. That cuts my reception to about 45 miles.


You can try the attic but count on moving it outdoors. One other problem with the attic. The antenna hd 8200 is very large. You must have enough room to turn that monster in the direction of the stations. Most attics don't have that kind of room. Good luck and happy viewing.


----------



## Chad0429

Jim,


Thanks for the response.


All but one of my channels in the Dallas/Ft Worth area are UHF, however one major channel is on VHF, so I need both. I'm only looking for HD stuff as I have D* for other channel viewing.


Attic space is an issue but I don't think (i hope not) I need to turn the antenna as all my stations are within about 4 degrees of each other (163-167 degrees from due North).


I have seen a stand or something that allows me to mount the antenna off of my sattelite dish on my roof as well. I think that's probably the best bet, if not then I'll probably try to rig something up to strap to my chimney.



I'll check into some of the other answers cpcat spoke of as well.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Chad0429_
> *Quick question - I'm looking at the Winegard models (VHF/UHF/FM) for my attic.
> 
> 
> 1) Do I stand a better chance of getting good reception with the larger of the two (if it will fit in my attic)?
> 
> 
> 2) Is there going to be any problems with an antenna that gets FM plus the others too? Do they make just a UHF/VHF with no FM? Will there be interference issues?
> 
> 
> 3) Do I need other equipment - my TV has an OTA tuner built in.
> *



1) Larger is almost always better. (Exception: when trying to receive stations that are 15-30 degrees apart, a fixed installation of a smaller antenna will work better than a fixed installation of a larger one. Larger antennas are more directional.) Attic installations cost you a minimum of 50% of your signal. Depending on your roof materials, topography, and other unknowns, you might get a good signal in the attic, or you might get nothing.


2) If there would be a problem with FM, it wouldn't matter if you had an FM antenna or not. You can always purchase an FM trap after the fact if you suspect that FM stations are causing you problems. No lo-VHF (channels 2-6) antenna is made that doesn't also receive FM since Channel 6 is at the bottom of the FM scale at around 86-88Mhz.


3) You might want a preamplifier, but only if your multipath issues are minimal. Look for a low-noise one such as the Winegard or Channel Master models. (Beware the CM 7775, it will not even pass VHF.)


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> I'm only looking for HD stuff as I have D* for other channel viewing



In that case everything is uhf except for ABC on ch. 9. If you really want to try the attic, and you have all your stations within a 5 degree window, you could try an 8-bay (Antennasdirect DB8, CM 4228, Winegard 8800). This *might* also provide enough gain on vhf 9 to get your ABC. If you've decided to go outside, you might get away with a 4-bay for the full-power stations (CM 4221, DB4). The problem is that that's about the edge of reception range even outside for a 4-bay. The more cushion you have, the more consistent it will be and the fewer dropouts you'll have. An 8-bay or large combo vhf/uhf will require a sturdy mount (ground mount, guyed roof mount). I certainly wouldn't try mounting to the dish and chimney mounts are difficult and not as sturdy.


A ground mount is not that difficult and is very sturdy. Here's a pic of mine:

With a 4-bay, you could just do a wall mount (i.e. the top two attachments only) but bringing it to the ground is much stronger (I'd recc. if you go the 8-bay or large uhf/vhf combo route).


----------



## dt2002

My HDTV is located in the finished portion of my basement. It is also close to where the cable enters the house. From the basement, there is one cable that travels through the wall to the attic. From there, it splits (and is amplied) to deliver cable to the upstairs bedrooms.


Here is my question...


If I mount an antenna in the attic, is there someway of running the antenna signal down to my HDTV through the line that runs from the basement to the attic? Is this possible even though the cable the signal is "going the wrong way"? If it is possible, what equipment do I need? Combiners? Diplexers? others?


Thanks!


----------



## jimc705

dt,

Not exactly sure what you are trying to do. If I have it right you are try to feed an off air antenna on the same line that is now be used for cable TV. If so no you cannot combine off air with cable. Your need a seperate coax for the off air signal.


I don't know where you are located but you may not need an external antenna. Then you can get a small indoor antenna for hd. This is very rare though unless you are very close to the transmitters. Check with antennaweb.org put in your address to see what kind of antenna you'll need.


----------



## jdspencer

I posted in my city's reception area, but not too many people visit there.









So if someone can reply to this thread I'd appreciate it.


----------



## dt2002




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *dt,
> 
> Not exactly sure what you are trying to do. If I have it right you are try to feed an off air antenna on the same line that is now be used for cable TV. If so no you cannot combine off air with cable. Your need a seperate coax for the off air signal.
> 
> 
> I don't know where you are located but you may not need an external antenna. Then you can get a small indoor antenna for hd. This is very rare though unless you are very close to the transmitters. Check with antennaweb.org put in your address to see what kind of antenna you'll need.*



Jim - you got it right. I wanted to share the same cable between the antenna and the cable signal. I know it's possible to combine cable and satellite TV. I just did not know if I could combine OTA antenna and cable TV.


----------



## auburn97

I have a CM 4228 UHF antenna in the attic, and our local ABC affiliate decided to broadcast VHF. So, I need to get a VHF-only antenna (the ABC tower is in a different location than the UHF broadcasts) and combine the signals. Can I just get any old splitter/combiner?


Other information-

Cable run of 40 feet

I have a CM 7777 preamp near the TV (should I move this toward the antennas?)


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dt2002_
> *Jim - you got it right. I wanted to share the same cable between the antenna and the cable signal. I know it's possible to combine cable and satellite TV. I just did not know if I could combine OTA antenna and cable TV.*



The reason OTA or Cable can share the line with the satellite signals is that OTA/Cable generally uses the 50-850MHz range and satellite LNB's use the 950-1450MHz range, so there's no overlap and sufficient spacing.


Since OTA & Cable would be using the same frequencies, you can't share a cable.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by auburn97_
> *I have a CM 4228 UHF antenna in the attic, and our local ABC affiliate decided to broadcast VHF. So, I need to get a VHF-only antenna (the ABC tower is in a different location than the UHF broadcasts) and combine the signals. Can I just get any old splitter/combiner?
> 
> 
> Other information-
> 
> Cable run of 40 feet
> 
> I have a CM 7777 preamp near the TV (should I move this toward the antennas?)*



While you could use a normal splitter, it wouldn't be best. The best would be to move your 7777 up to the attic, as it has separate inputs for UHF and VHF. Just plug the proper antenna into each input and you're good to go. Otherwise, I'd suggest the Channel Master #0549, which filters out unwanted frequencies while combining antennas (note - this is exactly the same thing that is in your 7777.)


----------



## jimc705

auburn.

You did not metion how close you are to the VHF 4 YOU ARE TRYING TO GET. If you are very close try to put the 7777 to combined input. The switches to do this are inside the amp. You may get lucky and get enough signal from the 4228. It does pick up some VHF, although 4 is going to be tuff. The amp has 23 db gain VHF.


If that doesn't work the 7777 amp is suppose to be up at the antenna. The *********** supply by the tv set inside. The amp (gray part) has seperate inputs for VHF/UHF so it will combine the signals for you. Then you'll need a low band yagi.
http://www.starkelectronic.com/acantena.htm#Y5 


This will work if you are fairly close. You'll have to go to www.antennaweb.org 

and see what size antenna they recommend. You may need a 10 element.


You may also find if you move the 4228 outside you may get channel 4 off the backside of the antenna. The low band yagi has long elements so you must have enough room in the attic to point in the direction of the station.


----------



## auburn97

Thanks for the replies- I was mistaken, the 7777 is in the attic, it is the *********** supply down by the TV I was thinking was the 7777 for some reason. Anyway, I am 16.2 miles from the VHF tower, and 44 miles from the UHF tower, so my UHF antenna is HIGHLY sensitive to directional changes. The two towers are 90 degrees from each other, so it looks like I'm stuck going with two separate antennas.


----------



## cpcat

Auburn,

You might try making your own simple dipole with 300 ohm twinlead and mounting it in your attic (horizontal and perpendicular to the direction of the tower). You'd cut the proper length, splice it together at both far ends, then attach it to a 300/75 ohm balun in the middle (you'll have to splice the bottom wire in the middle to the balun, thus making a loop). See http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html for lengths .


An FM antenna dipole might work but it wouldnt' be optomized for ch. 4.


----------



## jimc705

JD


Sounds like multipath. The radio shack amp may be the whole problem. Rat shack amps are very noisy (4 db and up) and cause more problems then they solve. Try taking out the amp first. Being only 8 miles from transmitter you shouldn't need any amp. Work with no amp first and if you find you need one you can add one later.


Also radio shack makes a cable amp which does not include all the UHF band (WSKG) . You may have mistakenly got a cable tv amp. I think the amp you have is for distribution and won't help for the antenna.


If you find later on you still need an amp. You'll need a 2 piece preamp like a Winegard AP 8700.
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/Chart29.pdf 

Has very high VHF/UHF input voltage for reducing overloads from strong stations and 16db gain for the weak signals.


If removing the amp doesn't do it you may need to move the antenna up above your roofline to lessen the multipath. Multipath on a digital signal will sometimes completely wipe out the channel. No ghost but then nothing. Again try without the amp.


I know this sounds crazy but make sure the V on the antenna is pointing away from the stations you are trying to get and not towards them. In other words the UHF part shoud be closest to the stations you are trying to get. This is a common mistake some people do. They think the V is like an arrow and should point toward the station which is backwards.


The 3016 is not great at multipath. May need to get the ghost killer at http://www.winegard.com/offair/platinum.htm#7210 

only if all else fails.


I'd definetly return the amp and try without. If you get up above your roofline this should cure your problems. Good Luck.


----------



## jimc705

CPCAT,


Great recommendation!!


I am 42 miles from channel DT 7 here and made a small dipole cut for channel 7 with twin lead. I used PVC 1/2" pipe and put it inside along with the balum to help make it water proof. Works great at 40 miles so you should have no problem. If in attic no need to make waterproof but 50% reduction in efficency.


You may find this useful on how to make a dipole.
http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html


----------



## jdspencer

Thanks for the input. I removed the RS amp, which is a two piece version, not a distribution amp. The result was no difference.


Interesting about the multipath, since at one time I had the antenna just 6 feet above the deck and was able to get 42. Moved the antenna higher and I lost it.


I guess I really need to get this thing above the roofline, especially since my house has steel siding.


----------



## powerusr

Hi,


I could not find a better place to ask this question. Sorry in advance.


I am tiring to find out what Antenna DirecTV installs when you purchase their HD Solution. I found it in the past but have not been able to find it recently. My Guess is that it is what ever they have on hand.


Thanks

John


----------



## neitzb

I'm working on pulling in DTV OTA and am not going to be able to do it without an amp. So here's my run: RS Yagi to preamp to 3x4 multiswitch (combined with Directv) to diplexer to amp to tv (integrated tuner). Understanding that the amp and pre-amp puts voltage on the line between the two amp components, what should I do. In other words, is it possible to use a pre-amp and amp over diplexers and mutliswitches with Directv? I already have a triple run to this TV and I've been "cutoff" from running any more. Thanks!


----------



## greywolf

All the amp/preamp/amp power supply components need to go between the multiswitch and the antenna. Multiswitches and diplexers must block DC to allow the DC used as a 13VDC/18VDC signal and power between the DirecTV receiver and the dish LNBs. The only exception is when that 13VDC/18VDC is also used to power the amp/preamp and a dual passthru diplexer is used at the antenna end.


A 3x4 multiswitch can only access Sat A so prevents reception of most HD programming. A 5x8 is required with 4 lines from the dish and one from the antenna.


----------



## psxjunky

I have a CM 4228 installed in the attic and also using a CM 7777 pre-amp with it.


I am getting good signal strentgh on a bunch of channels, but on a few others I am getting a lot of stutter.


I am contemplating moving the CM4228 outside (rooftop) but would like to know how much improvement I can expect.


Can someone give me a ballpark figure about typically how much signal strength you lose by installing this antenna in the attic versus outside (on the rooftop) ?


Also, does anyone know how directional the Cm4228 is ? I have read conflicting reports where some say the 4228 is not directional and some say it is highly directional.


----------



## neitzb




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by greywolf_
> *A 3x4 multiswitch can only access Sat A so prevents reception of most HD programming. A 5x8 is required with 4 lines from the dish and one from the antenna.*



Thanks Greywolf, I'll give it a shot. Regarding your comment about the 3x4 vs a 5x8 preventing HD programming, are you referring to HD programming over satellite (from the LNBs) or will this also impact the HD signal coming OTA? I don't have the D* equipment to pull in HD over the satellite and have no plans on adding it because the cost is ridiculous for a receiver with Tivo. So I was just looking to supplement my locals with OTA HD for a better quality option for HD shows and sports.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by neitzb_
> *Thanks Greywolf, I'll give it a shot. Regarding your comment about the 3x4 vs a 5x8 preventing HD programming, are you referring to HD programming over satellite (from the LNBs) or will this also impact the HD signal coming OTA? I don't have the D* equipment to pull in HD over the satellite and have no plans on adding it because the cost is ridiculous for a receiver with Tivo. So I was just looking to supplement my locals with OTA HD for a better quality option for HD shows and sports.*



OK, you are currently using a 3x4 multiswitch so you have a regular 18" dish, right? Not the 3-LNB Phase III dish.


You cannot feed the DC voltage to power the preamp along the coax lines used for the DirecTV signal because it would conflict with the control voltages used to tell the multiswitch what polarity LNB signal to deliver.


With the 18" dish, there's 2 lines from your satellite dish to the multiswitch. You mention you have 3 coax lines run. What you could do is dedicate one of those to the antenna and preamp and the power injector for the preamp. Bring the other two directly from the LNB's on the 18" dish inside and place the 3x4 multiswitch there and feed your receivers from the multiswitch and the OTA HD receiver from the 3rd coax.


----------



## greywolf




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by neitzb_
> *Regarding your comment about the 3x4 vs a 5x8 preventing HD programming, are you referring to HD programming over satellite (from the LNBs) or will this also impact the HD signal coming OTA?*



Just the satellite.


----------



## neitzb




> _Originally posted by neitzb_
> 
> 
> Thanks Greywolf and Doug. Success at last. The third run I have actually comes back downstairs to another TV that I control off of one receiver (don't use it much so don't want to pay the extra), so I didn't want to use that third run. But from taking your advice, I moved the power supply from right before the TV to before the multiswitch and it made all the difference. Now I just can't wait until tomorrow to see how football looks in HD. Thanks for all your help, I would have given up without it.


----------



## dswallow




> _Originally posted by neitzb_
> 
> 
> 
> *Quote:*
> *
> 
> Originally posted by neitzb
> 
> 
> Thanks Greywolf and Doug. Success at last. The third run I have actually comes back downstairs to another TV that I control off of one receiver (don't use it much so don't want to pay the extra), so I didn't want to use that third run. But from taking your advice, I moved the power supply from right before the TV to before the multiswitch and it made all the difference. Now I just can't wait until tomorrow to see how football looks in HD. Thanks for all your help, I would have given up without it.*
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *Are you running the power injector connected to one of the lines from the LNB?
> 
> 
> I wouldn't.
> 
> 
> There's still a control voltage being sent from the multiswitch to each LNB to identify what polarity to set the LNB for; either 13v or 17v. Maybe you got lucky and have it on one that's close to the voltage of the preamp power injector, but it's probably delivering more voltage than the LNB normally would take, and putting two DC sources on the same line might cause some problems in other circuitry.
Click to expand...


----------



## neitzb




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dswallow_
> *Are you running the power injector connected to one of the lines from the LNB?
> *



Nah. The 2 LNB lines go directly into the multiswitch, and the yagi, preamp and power supply are all on the antenna input of the multiswtich. So none of the amp components are on the LNB lines.


----------



## dominicr




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by psxjunky_
> *I have a CM 4228 installed in the attic and also using a CM 7777 pre-amp with it.
> 
> 
> I am getting good signal strentgh on a bunch of channels, but on a few others I am getting a lot of stutter.
> 
> 
> I am contemplating moving the CM4228 outside (rooftop) but would like to know how much improvement I can expect.
> 
> 
> Can someone give me a ballpark figure about typically how much signal strength you lose by installing this antenna in the attic versus outside (on the rooftop) ?
> 
> 
> Also, does anyone know how directional the Cm4228 is ? I have read conflicting reports where some say the 4228 is not directional and some say it is highly directional.*



I have heard figures of 30-50% signal loss in the attic. I personally had to go rooftop after not getting satisfactory results in my attic. I am only about 12 mi. away too.


----------



## psxjunky

Thanks dominicr !


How much was the improvement for you by going from attic to rooftop ?


----------



## jimc705

Dominicr,


The 4228 is a directional antenna with an average beamwidth 37 degrees. This doesn't mean you absolutely won't pick up anything from the sides it just has to be about 15 DB stronger then what's it front. Front to back 22DB. Note the gain per channel starts at channel 14 10.8 db and goes to a high of 13 DB at channel 52. These are of course in open air and not attic .


A tech at Channel Master provided me with these specs on various antenna model. For some reason, there specs are not posted on their Web site. Enjoy.


Note: These are comma-aligned tables. Copy and paste into a text editor to realign the tables if necessary)

The 4228 specs are 4th column in.

Table 1 - Gain specs


Antenna Model 4251 4228 4248 3023 3021/4221 4247 4194 4308/3022

Channel Frequency(MHz) Gain Gain Gain Gain Gain Gain Gain Gain Gain

14 470 14.5 10.8 10.2 9.3 8 7.4 5.8 5.4 5.8

19 500 15 11.7 10.6 9.7 8.3 7.2 5.9 6 5.9

27 548 13.5 12.1 11 10.5 9.4 7.2 6.4 6.2 6.4

35 596 16.2 12.1 11.4 10.8 10 7.2 6.9 6.9 6.9

43 644 16 12.7 12.4 11 11 8.5 7.6 6.2 7.6

52 698 16.4 13 13 12.4 12 10 8.4 9.8 8.4

60 746 17.6 11.5 11.8 11.8 12.9 9.5 9 9.8 9

69 800 17.8 11.5 6.2 8.7 12.8 9.5 9.6 -0.8 9.6

Average Gain 15.9 11.9 10.8 10.5 10.6 8.3 7.5 6.2 7.5


Size 6.96 2.77 2.56 2.56 0.9 1.02 0.83 0.51 0.83

Length NA NA 82 82 NA 47 NA 41 NA



Table 2 - Polar specs


antenna model 4251 4228 4248 3023 4221/3021 4194 4308/3022

Channel Freq.(MHz) "BW, F/B" "BW, F/B" "BW, F/B" "BW, F/B" "BW, F/B" "BW, F/B" "BW, F/B"

14 470 "20deg, 14db" "37deg, 22db" "42deg, 17db" "43deg, 18db" "59deg, 17db" "63deg, 17db" "56deg, 21db"

19 500 "19deg, 16db" "29deg, 23db" "36deg, 22db" "37deg, 19db" "57deg, 16db" "62deg, 17db" "54deg, 19db"

27 548 "16deg, 14db" "26deg, 21db" "32deg, 19db" "37deg, 23db" "54deg, 15db" "59deg, 17db" "52deg, 20db"

35 596 "15deg, 14db" "24deg, 19db" "30deg, 21db" "34deg, 16db" "52deg, 17db" "58deg, 15db" "48deg, 15db"

43 644 "14deg, 15db" "23deg, 24db" "27deg, 24db" "32deg, 17db" "48deg, 16db" "57deg, 14db" "43deg, 18db"

52 698 "13deg, 15db" "20deg, 21db" "23deg, 18db" "31deg, 19db" "44deg, 17db" "53deg, 12db" "37deg, 20db"

60 746 "12deg, 14db" "18deg, 20db" "20deg, 15db" "24deg, 18db" "41deg, 15db" "50deg, 12db" "31deg, 16db"


The loss in the attic depends on roofing material and what else may be in the attic. HVAC runs, Electrical wiring, type of insulation etc. Ball park is

40 % less efficency. Multipath problems are also a big issue with attic insulations. This can completely wipe out a station or at very least create a lot of drop outs. You'll see a big improvement if you move outside location.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by psxjunky_
> *How much was the improvement for you by going from attic to rooftop ?*



FWIW, sometimes you just have to forget about the gain figures and go on local recommendations or just grab an antenna and try it at your particular location. Here in Indy a couple of us have been conducting some tests between the CM 4221 and the 4228 to receive our local WB station on digital channel 48 which is currently running only 4 kW @ about 1000 feet. Also, the station's tower is located several miles outside the immediate metro area. I live 36 miles from the tower and another local viewer is approximately 30 miles from the tower.


With the above in mind, neither antenna would work in either one of our two attics. Then we tried the two antennas outdoors at around 15-20 feet AGL. The 4228 barely moved the signal meter reading, but when each of us hooked up the 4221 we had some very satisfactory results. Neither one of us is getting a super signal but the signal level is very decent and strong enough to get a pretty stable/reliable signal. The gain specs for the 4228 would lead you to believe that it would be the better choice for receiving ch. 48, but for this area the 4221 is a much better performer on DTV ch. 48.......BTW, just for clarification, we did not use any preamps for these tests.


Steve


----------



## cpcat

The 4228 will be much more sensitive to aiming due to it's narrower beamwidth compared to the 4221. The beamwidth becomes even narrower the farther up in frequency you go. In addition, reception of marginal signals can change minute by minute so I'd take those results with a grain of salt. The 4228 should give the better signal assuming matched conditions and precise aiming for both.


----------



## etcarroll

Another thing about the CM 4228, I have one and learned on another forum that the 4228 rolls off sharply above channel 60 as it is shipped from the factory, but you will pick up almost 5 db gain if you trim the elements at the scoremarks on thebowties.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *The 4228 will be much more sensitive to aiming due to it's narrower beamwidth compared to the 4221. The beamwidth becomes even narrower the farther up in frequency you go. In addition, reception of marginal signals can change minute by minute so I'd take those results with a grain of salt. The 4228 should give the better signal assuming matched conditions and precise aiming for both.*



The key word is "should." In theory I agree with everything you've said but in reality I've tried this same test at various times of the year and I've gotten similar results. In my experience, the 4228 doesn't always outperform the 4221, even with precise aim using a rotor. At various times I've used each of these antennas in permanent installations. And, yes, I do agree and I know from personal experience that the beamwidth is much narrower with the 4228 and that multipath issues are generally much worse with the 4221.


Location, location, location...........your results may vary. The two test sites were at least 12 miles apart, we each used our own set of antennas (4221 and 4228) but we ended up with very similar results for this one station.


I'll stick with my horizontally-stacked Triax Unix 100 antennas which totally outperform the 4221 and the 4228 on weak stations at my location.


Steve


----------



## tivoboy




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by etcarroll_
> *Another thing about the CM 4228, I have one and learned on another forum that the 4228 rolls off sharply above channel 60 as it is shipped from the factory, but you will pick up almost 5 db gain if you trim the elements at the scoremarks on thebowties.*



care to elablorate here, with a diagram maybe?

I'd love to increase the high range


----------



## cpcat

It's not likely you could increase the gain above 60 without negatively impacting performance on the lower channels. There's not much, even now, above 60 anyway and eventually *everything* will be 51 and lower.


----------



## etcarroll

"care to elablorate here, with a diagram maybe?

I'd love to increase the high range"


Just look at the 'whiskers' on the actual elements, there's a scoring, or start of a cut, on each, just finish it by cutting all the way thru.


cpcat makes a good point, if you don't have channels above 60, then don't bother. In Philly, I have 2 channels above 60, so it works for me.


----------



## cpcat

In case you're interested:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=481958


----------



## jimc705

CPCAT,

Plan on stacking my xg 91's which look almost identical to your Triax Unix.

Do you have a spacing recommendation for the antennas?

You make the stacking mount or buy?

I assume the coax has to be exact length from each antenna.

What did you use to combine both UHF's together?

Thanks for help in advance.


----------



## jimc705

OOPS forgot . Why you stack horiz. instead of vertical. I assume horz. stack gives narrower beamwidth is this correct?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> OOPS forgot . Why you stack horiz. instead of vertical. I assume horz. stack gives narrower beamwidth is this correct?



Yes, correct. Horizontal stacking has always worked better for me. It's probably due to it's ability to reduce multipath in mountainous terrain.


I settled on 48 inches for stacking distance. 44 and below, performance suffers for me. Wider than 48 works fine but doesn't seem to give any improvement in performance and the beamwidth gets very narrow and makes aiming more difficult, more dropouts on windy days, etc.


With my Televes stack, I liked 57 in. though, you'll have to experiment some.


I use a Lindsay uhf 2-input combiner. It offers a small improvement over a wideband splitter in reverse. You might go with the splitter first before deciding to fork over the cash for a small improvement. Yes, use identical lengths in the cabling.


I made the mount myself using CM 1 1/4 mast, Fiberglass tubing (Max-Gain Systems), and CM roof mounts available at Lowe's. Everything is available at Lowe's or RS except the fiberglass: http://www.mgs4u.com/fiberglass-tube-rod.htm 


PM me if you need more help.


----------



## jdspencer




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jdspencer_
> *Thanks for the input. I removed the RS amp, which is a two piece version, not a distribution amp. The result was no difference.
> 
> 
> Interesting about the multipath, since at one time I had the antenna just 6 feet above the deck and was able to get 42. Moved the antenna higher and I lost it.
> 
> 
> I guess I really need to get this thing above the roofline, especially since my house has steel siding.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Here's an update.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...58#post4814258


----------



## spinn74

I live in Mt Laurel, NJ about 18 miles from where the local HD channels are broadcasted. Does anybody have any suggestions of a good outdoor off-air antenna to use to receive my locals in HD? I am going to use a two way splitter also....will I need an amplifier because of this? Also any experiences with reception in this area?


----------



## jdspencer

First step is to go to www.antennaweb.org and check the direction of your towers and what frequencies they are using. Depending on the strength of the signals you may need an amplifier. Like it was in the 50's, getting the right antenna and a good signal is trial and error.


----------



## KBI

Will I need anything else to set it up on my Samsung 26inch HDTV??


----------



## KBI

Would I need a set-top box too? My TV already has a built in tuner?


----------



## HiggySlapBass

Antenna: Zenith Silver Sensor, you can get one at Sears.


Set-top box: As long as it's an ATSC tuner, you won't need anything extra.


----------



## Inundated

KBI doesn't say where he/she is located. Folks, please, at least give us the TV market you're in!


The reason I say that is because KBI may need a different antenna of some sort if he/she has VHF DT signals in the area, particularly in the lower end of the VHF dial. That doesn't mean the actual analog channel number is a low VHF, it means the digital transmitter is low VHF. The Silver Sensor, a stellar performer indoors, cannot pick up low-VHF digital stations at all...it's not designed to do so.


If the OP lives in the Chicago market, the CBS O&O station (WBBM/2) has its digital allocation on channel 3. In Grand Rapids, MI, one of the major stations is on a low VHF channel as well. And here in my home market (Cleveland/Akron, OH), the NBC affiliate, WKYC/3, has a DT channel of *2*.


Now, it's quite likely that KBI doesn't live in a market with low-VHF DT channels, but I thought they'd like to know. If you tell us where you're getting your TV from, city-wise, we'll be able to tell you.

http://www.antennaweb.org/ will also be helpful for YOU to find this information out yourself, and even get a street level map with bearings of the various digital (and analog) stations.


----------



## KBI

Bay area... San Jose, ca 40 miles from SF..


----------



## sebenste

Hello all,


I am using a ChannelMaster 4228 for OTA DTV reception 70 miles west

of Chicago, and it gives reasonably good results, given I have a CM

7777 preamp on it and the antenna is in an attic in a small river valley area.


My question is: Which is better: A CM 4228 8-bay UHF, or the DB-8 from

Antennas Direct? I have heard both do very well, but the DB-8 is of better

construction quality. The design on the DB-8 raises an eyebrow:

it has spaces inbetween the dipoles, indicating that: 1. it may not

reflect back signals as good as the 4228 and 2. It may not receive VHF-HI

(channels 7-13) as well as the CM 4228. I have also heard that the yagis

(corner reflectors) don't do as well, with the exception of the DB 91 from

Antennas Direct. My past experience with yagis isn't good in terms

of good reception. Their directionality isn't great, and thus, neither is

their gain.


Thoughts? Ramblings? Wish it were summer?


----------



## ww2154

I am new to dish network and this might be a dumb question. I have the 811 receiver and hd package. I am wanting to receive ota networks using a outside antenna but want to use the same cable running from the outside dish . What do I need and where do I hook up the outside antenna.


----------



## Inundated




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by KBI_
> *Bay area... San Jose, ca 40 miles from SF..*



See, NOW I can help you










You have no low-band VHFs. You have the digital half of NBC O&O KNTV, right in your backyard, at DT 12, but you should be able to pick that up even with the Silver Sensor not being a VHF antenna (high VHF, plus the fact it's right now closer to you).


The San Francisco OTA stations could be a challenge to catch indoors, depending on where you are in the SJ area and what kind of line of sight you have towards Sutro.


----------



## Inundated

KBI - you might wanna post here for further help:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=357896 


This is the San Francisco(/San Jose/Oakland) local market thread, where you can get some help from people with familiarity with the Bay Area.


----------



## jimc705

2154


You will be needing a dipexer Channel Master and Winegard both make good ones. However a diplexer has a good deal of loss and unless you have fairly strong reception they may not work well. Give us your zip so we know where you are located in reference to the transmitters. If you can I would highly recommend using a seperate coax for the OTA antenna. Diplexers can cause sevral problems. Even Channel Master techs recommend running a seperate coax if possible.


Depending on your loaction and if you need a preamp or not will determine which type of diplexer may work for you.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *2154
> 
> 
> You will be needing a dipexer Channel Master and Winegard both make good ones. However a diplexer has a good deal of loss and unless you have fairly strong reception they may not work well. Give us your zip so we know where you are located in reference to the transmitters. If you can I would highly recommend using a seperate coax for the OTA antenna. Diplexers can cause sevral problems. Even Channel Master techs recommend running a seperate coax if possible.
> 
> 
> Depending on your loaction and if you need a preamp or not will determine which type of diplexer may work for you.*



Combined two diplexers might have 0.5db to 1db signal loss; very minor, really.


There can be issues diplexing an antenna signal, but the vast majority of people will be fine if everything is done correctly.


When an OTA signal can be provided over a separate cable, that'd be ideal, but you seem to be using a bit more "scare" in your post referring to diplexers than is really warranted.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sebenste_
> *My question is: Which is better: A CM 4228 8-bay UHF, or the DB-8 from
> 
> Antennas Direct? I have heard both do very well, but the DB-8 is of better
> 
> construction quality. The design on the DB-8 raises an eyebrow:
> 
> it has spaces inbetween the dipoles, indicating that: 1. it may not
> 
> reflect back signals as good as the 4228 and 2. It may not receive VHF-HI
> 
> (channels 7-13) as well as the CM 4228. I have also heard that the yagis
> 
> (corner reflectors) don't do as well, with the exception of the DB 91 from
> 
> Antennas Direct. My past experience with yagis isn't good in terms
> 
> of good reception. Their directionality isn't great, and thus, neither is
> 
> their gain.
> *



If you haven't read the review of the CM4228 at www.hdtvprimer.com yet, do so. It points out that the poor combiner design of the 4228 costs at least 2db of gain that theoretically should be there. The DB8 doesn't have the same problem, so there is probably some slightly better performance. He also states the benefit of the uniform reflective backing.


I've had a bunch of hybrid yagi/corner-reflectors (few people sell pure yagis anymore) and you have to understand how a yagi works. They are very directional at the frequency for which they're tuned. Usually, in the US, that means channel 69. As the frequency drops, the directionality drops as well. Now the 91XG has 28db of front-to-back ratio (at which channel, they don't say, so we'll assume it's channel 69,) which is very good. In comparison, the Winegard 9095P has a maximum of 14db. Obviously, the 91XG is better in this regard. But as gain increases, directionality increases *by default.* The more gain, the more directional. Period.


The problem for most people is that a large number of their channels are in the portion of the spectrum covered by the corner-reflector rather than the yagi in the hybrid. This occurs somewhere in the mid-30s. Below this point, the primary means of getting signal is on the corner-reflector portion of the antenna. Since you can get bounce from a wide angle and still hit the active elements, this reduces directionality a ton.


I think the DB8 is probably a fraction better than the 4228, and given your distance, you may want to try it. It also might perform adequately on hi-VHF for you, as all UHF antennas have *some* gain on hi-VHF, though you often need to aim the antenna off-axis for maximum signal.


----------



## maraldo

Hello. I am about 25 miles away from the Philadelphia towers and I am running an XG42 through a Sony ATSC tuner. I seem to be able to pick up all digital stations except for FOX (they are all clustered within 2 degrees of on another). Any suggestions. Thanks.


----------



## sebenste

Thanks for the CM 4228/DB-8 info. Now, what is the best 30 dB

preamplifier for under $100? I have the ChannelMaster 7777 now,

but I want even more gain with even less noise. OK, if it has to be over

$100, so be it. Prefer under $100 first.


Gilbert


----------



## jimc705

Sorry don't mean to scare anyone. The Channel Master diplexer has a pass thru db loss of .8 DB. Needing 2 that'll be 1.6 db loss. You can always amplify to get over line losses, diplexers, and splitters. However it's a lot cheper to keep the losses at a min.


This gentlemen looks to be a min of 40 miles from the tower to a max of 98. He's going to need all the signal he can get. A gain of 1.6 db may be the difference having dropouts every 30 second or so (unacceptable) or drop outs every 15 to 30 minutes which may be acceptable to some.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sebenste_
> *Thanks for the CM 4228/DB-8 info. Now, what is the best 30 dB
> 
> preamplifier for under $100? I have the ChannelMaster 7777 now,
> 
> but I want even more gain with even less noise. OK, if it has to be over
> 
> $100, so be it. Prefer under $100 first.*



You might be able to get less noise, but more amplification isn't desirable unless you've got the longest cable run known to man (think 500'+.) And the 7777 has some of the lowest noise figures I've seen quoted (2.0db.) I'd rate it as top notch.


Your preamplifier can't create signal where there isn't any. It can only amplify what the antenna is receiving. More isn't always better. Sometimes it's just more. Your best bet is to join two identical antennas together in a stack to increase gain, which will get you 3db of *real* gain. All a preamplifier with more db of gain is going to do is drain your wallet.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> My question is: Which is better: A CM 4228 8-bay UHF, or the DB-8 from



Sebenste,

The DB8 may be a little better, but at 70 miles you may need to stack like sregener mentioned. The problem with 8-bays is weight, windload, and they're very difficult to stack. You might consider a yagi/corner reflector like the Antennasdirect XG91 simply for the reason you can upgrade to a stack later if you feel you need more performance. Following is a pic of stacked yagi/corner reflectors which provide consistent reception over mountainous terrain at 65 miles:


And I agree completely that the 7777 is all you need.


Depending on your vhf needs (WBBM is ch. 3), you may have to add a separate VHF antenna mounted underneath similar to the pic. You'd need to have low-band capacity (the vhf in the pic is high-band only). If you want 3 only, I'd get a cut-channel 3. See http://www.starkelectronic.com/delhi.htm The VHF needs to be spaced 60 in. or so beneath the uhf section.


----------



## sebenste

Thanks, cpcat et al! Much appreciated. I can't get WBBM-DT 3, BTW...

even with a monster VHF in the attic (I don't own the roof of my townhouse), I can only get a 30% signal, and it takes 41% to lock on my tuner.


Gilbert


----------



## cpcat

Wow, I didn't read close enough to see you're in the attic. You are doing *very* well as is if you're receiving Chicago stations at 70 miles. In your attic, you don't really have the issues of the elements to deal with so you *could* consider stacking 2 8-bays, depending on how much room you have up there.


The 5 element channel 3 from Jerrold isn't actually that big for low band VHF and 7.5 dbd gain would give you a good chance from that distance if you were outside. All bets are off from inside the attic, though you seem to be doing well on the uhf side of things.


----------



## sebenste

Cpcat,


I took great care in putting this system together, talking with engineers,

looking and reading at various boards and how other dealt with their

issues. I have no room in the attic for a stacked array, horizontal or

vertical. I could replace the CM 4228 8-bay with a DB-8, but I would

like the VHF-HI reception when WLS and maybe WTTW go to channels 7 and 11 respectively for digital. Not saying they will, but rumors are 7

wants to go there when all is said and done. Can't say I blame them!


I have quad-shielded RG-6 for my 75 ohm cable run, and all my RG-6

cables are brand new quad-shielded from wall plate to DTV tuner,

DTV tuner to VCR, and VCR to TV. I can nuke my TV dinner in my nearby

kitchen and still watch WBBM-TV 2 analog without serious interference.

I am completely sold that the extra 3%+ of protection with quad

shielding helps give me my performance. My Winegard monster 16'

VHF-only antenna works very well, too. I can only get WBBM-DT maybe once a month. But...in September, I got WGBH-2 analog from Boston, MA

in E-skip right over WBBM...and a few weeks ago, I got KDFW-4 analog

from Dallas, all from my attic antenna in a low valley near a river 60 miles

west of Chicago. I also had an NBC on channel 3, possibly from

Florida...not sure, though. It wasn't from Madison, WI; it was E-skip, so

who knows what it was. Longest DT DX catch was in September, got

WSJV-DT FOX from South Bend, 160 miles away at 10 KW or some such

ridiculously low power.


Believe me, I can only imagine what I would get on the roof!


Gilbert


----------



## Rack

 http://www.egrabow.com/gallery/ch3.htm 

If it was an analog NBC 3, see if you can pick it out of the lineup here.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sebenste_
> *My Winegard monster 16' VHF-only antenna works very well, too.*



Is there some reason you won't be able to use this for channels 7 and 11?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> I have no room in the attic for a stacked array



I think you might just as well stay put, then. Again, the DB8 may be a small improvement, but it may not be significant to your overall reception.




> Quote:
> My Winegard monster 16'



I'm confused, too, about why you can't use this for high vhf...and how you are combining the two with the 7777 and managing to get low band from the Winegard and high band off the 4228?


----------



## sebenste

Hey guys,


Sorry to confuse you. I'd rather keep it simple up in the attic. I use

the CM 7777 as a diplexer, with the monster VHF Winegard hooked

up to the VHF connector, and the UHF to the UHF connector. But, if I

can get 7-13 off of the 8-bay CM 4228 UHF, then I can use the

Winegard to either point northwest towards Madison, WI, or south

to pick up a station 35 miles south of me.


I agree that I think I'm doing about as well as I can, and a DB-8, from

what it sounds like, may only help marginally. But, I wanted more

opinions, in case I was missing something.


Incidentally, a friend of mine has an HDTV and the biggest Winegard

VHF/UHF combo they make on an outdoor 30' tower, about 60 miles west

southwest of Chicago. He's south of a ridge that really prevents me from

getting any DX from the south or southeast. In any case, using a 20 dB

gain preamp, he can get the higher power WTVO-DT from Rockford

which is northwest of his location by about 35 miles, but none of the

others on lower power STA's. He can, however, get channels 3 and 12

from Champaign, and all of the Quad Cities/Moline IL TV stations over

100 miles away. I coached his setup and he's doing better than I am

by a mile. Oh, to have an antenna like that on a 30' tower! But I will

stop drooling now. ;-) DXing with his setup is fun!


BTW, I use a Zenith HDV420 to pick up the stations to my lousy

TV. I get a 90% or so on WGN-DT, 70% on WLS-DT, WFLD-DT;

an 80% on WYCC-DT with 99 "whopping" KW of juice, and

80% on WPWR-DT. The others are lower power and around 50%.

As a reference, to lock a station, you need a 41% signal to see it

reliably.


The hardest one besides WBBM is WCIU-DT, at 1 KW transmitter power

output and 15.1 KW ERP from Sears Tower. I can get that station

consistently about 1 day a week, otherwise it always breaks up.

But at 15 KW, I think I'm still doing good with my setup. A guy who

has a very similar setup to mine 1 mile east of me in a taller attic

using a CM 4228 UHF and CM 7777 preamp gets WCIU with 60%

consistently. His dad just retired as a chief engineer of a TV station,

so naturally I have been asking him lots of questions. He even built

*his own channel 3 antenna*, bigger and better than what you can buy,

and he gets it from his attic, also 60 miles away, essentially, and in the same low-lying area of the river valley. I'll wait until WBBM heads for

a UHF allocation, though, as I have no desire to try to build my own

monster antenna. Hey, that sounds like it could be a hit Discovery

Channel show for us HDTV and antenna weenies!


----------



## firemantom26

I bought a zenith silver sensor and I need the best and largest preamp for

this. Does anyone have any info this.



Thank You


Tom


----------



## Mark Vidonic

I've used this from Radio Shack and it's worked very well for me:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D1170


----------



## firemantom26

Mark I was hoping for something that was in the range of30dB or more.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> But, if I
> 
> can get 7-13 off of the 8-bay CM 4228 UHF, then I can use the
> 
> Winegard to either point northwest towards Madison, WI, or south
> 
> to pick up a station 35 miles south of me.



This won't likely work on vhf very well due to multipath generated from combining the two antennas without the diplexer (if you diplex them then 7-13 will be removed from the 4228 output). Unless you can find a low band vhf/high band vhf + uhf diplexer, you'd need to run a separate downlead for the Winegard with an A/B switch. You'd most likely not need a preamp on the second downlead because low vhf has much less line loss. Triax might make such a diplexer, I'm not sure.


The other way it might work would be separate low and high band vhf antennas, both input to the vhf side of the 7777 (use a wideband joiner). You could then point the antennas in different directions and their outputs probably won't overlap enough to cause a problem. Again if you only need ch. 3 on low band, use a cut ch. 3 and there would be even less likelihood of overlap.


----------



## jmvaughan1

I have a silver star antenna with the zenith amplifier. I pick up my CBS (4.9 miles), my NBC (19.1 miles), and PBS (40.8 miles) stations without any problems. I cannot get any signal on either of the ABC or Fox stations (25.7 miles away). Is there anything that I can do or is there anything that I am doing wrong. I have tried different directions and different heights but to no avail. Thanks for the help.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by AkaStp_
> *Radio Shack have a preamp that is rated at 30db. Take a look at the Antenna Accessories page of thier web site for more info (or stop by your local Radio Shack store). Note however that RS preamps have rather high noise figures (that 10dB preamp that Mark Vidonic mentioned has a 7.5-9.5dB noise figure). You might be better off with a preamp from Winegard or ChannelMaster, both of whom have preamps with about 26dB of gain (and low noise figures) and come in UHF-only models as well as UHF/VHF.*



No "might" about it; he *will* be better off with something like a Channel Master 7777 or 7775 than with any Radio Shack preamp.


----------



## greywolf

The noise figure on a preamp is often more important than the gain figure. The Channel Master 7777 for example has UHF figures of 26db gain and 2db noise. It's not just the 24db difference either. High noise can really kill things.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> I bought a zenith silver sensor and I need the best and largest preamp for



Why? You may not need a preamp but a better, bigger antenna in a different location. Preamps overcome line losses and sometimes can hurt more than help. Tell us more about your situation.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> How can I boost my signal strength?



Jmvaughn,


I'm assuming you mean Zenith Silver Sensor? You may need to go outdoors with something like a 4221 or 4228 even depending on your location. Where are you in central Missouri and what stations are you trying to receive?


----------



## Mark Vidonic

I appreciate everyone's input on my suggestion. The setup I have works well for me, but I like the other input about the Channel Master 7777. I may actually switch to that one if I can find it at a reasonable price


----------



## firemantom26

This is the preaamp that I have http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...A163399%3A4536 



Tom


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by firemantom26_
> *This is the preaamp that I have http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...A163399%3A4536 *



That's not a preamp; a preamp will have an amplifier module you place right at the antenna and a power injector module you can place elsewhere.


It's important to amplify the signal as early as possible in order to be amplifying as little additional noise and to start with the maximum signal you've got.


What you have is a distribution amplifier basically doing the same thing, but intended just to amplify to account for further losses through distribution/splitting in your wiring.


If your antenna is in the attic, and you place it very close to the point the signal comes from the antenna, it'll generally work the same, though no information seems to be provided about the specs of the unit, so we don't know it's noise rating or how much total signal it's capable of amplifying before it might be clipping.


----------



## jimc705

CPCAT,


Do you get any digitals from Lexington KY. channel 4 ,7 etc? Looks like they may make it to you by coverage maps. If you can get them I may raise my VHF and see if I can. They are about 100 miles from me over those KY mountains. Do you know if they are full power or not?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Do you get any digitals from Lexington KY. channel 4 ,7 etc?



WDKY 4 (FOX) is still working on their new tower and not broadcasting yet.

WLJC 7 is easy from Beatyville, but WMAK would knock it out for you.

No go for WKYT 13 even though they're at full power, and believe me I've tried (about 10-15 miles further north than 4 will be).

When 4 is up and running you might try it but it'd be a "long shot"(pun intended).


----------



## SSragtop

Any advise for a channel 5 at 87 miles. I can pull in their analog 33 with an xg91 mounted on a 30 ft. mast. I'm looking at the Antennacraft cs1100. I could move the mast to the roof or buy a 50 ft mast to get some extra height. I don't want to buy an antenna cut for ch 5 since there will be an ABC going live on ch 9 in the next month or two and it is a lot closer.


Thanks, Clay


----------



## etk29321

Is it possible to hook two antennas together to feed a single tuner?


I can get every single channel I want except FOX. I can only get FOX with a very specific antenna placement that doens't work for any of the other channels. Theoretically all my networks come from the same compas direction of 133 degrees, so merely rotating the antenna isn't an option.


----------



## PhilJSmith67

Yes. You need a *Jointenna* coupler. The Jointenna allows you to add an antenna specifically cut/aimed for a single channel, while "notching out" that channel from your main antenna. For instance, if Fox were on 25, one input would allow 2-24 and 26-69 to pass through, while the other input would allow only 25.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by PhilJSmith67_
> *Yes. You need a Jointenna coupler. The Jointenna allows you to add an antenna specifically cut/aimed for a single channel, while "notching out" that channel from your main antenna. For instance, if Fox were on 25, one input would allow 2-24 and 26-69 to pass through, while the other input would allow only 25.*



It's a little more simple if the split of antennas is across VHF/UHF; same concept though, just easier to get such a splitter/combiner, or even preamps with separate VHF and UHF and built-in combiners.


----------



## etk29321

FOX is on channel 49 so the Jointenna is exactly what I need. Thanks.


----------



## cpcat

I think a clarification of terms would be helpful:


Splitter/Combiner/Joiner=A primarily parallel connection at a specified frequency or range of frequencies. Rejection of frequencies is usually provided above and below the specified range. Resulting signal on parallel legs is identical but attenuated by 1/2 or 3db + thru loss. Bidirectional, typically termed a *splitter* when used to create 2 signals from one. Termed a *combiner* or *joiner* when used to create one signal from 2.

Example: 2 GHz splitter/joiner


Diplexer/Filter/Separator=A primarily in-series connection also at a specified frequency or range of frequencies but in addition providing in-band rejection/filtering. Resulting signal is original minus rejected signal on each leg and any attenuation is due primarily to thru loss. Examples: UHF/VHF diplexer, Satellite/TV diplexer, Channelmaster Jointenna. Also bidirectional.


Since both have out of band rejection and DC is 0 hz by definition neither will pass DC current unless specifically designed to do otherwise on one leg or both.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> I don't want to buy an antenna cut for ch 5 since there will be an ABC going live on ch 9 in the next month or two and



Unless you have other low band channels you want, I'd still say get a cut channel 5 and combine it with an Antennacraft Y10 7-13 later (or even a cut ch. 9 if you don't have other high band channels). This will provide better performance and less overall windload than a monster wideband VHF. You could get them both for about the price of the CS1100.

See http://www.starkelectronic.com/delhi.htm for 5 element and 10 element models. Even the 5 element should outperform the CS1100.


----------



## SSragtop

I know the cut channel antenna will perform much better. But I wanted to get it installed before the Sugar Bowl on Jan 3rd. I can get the CS1100 locally. I'm afraid that I wouldn't get the Jerrold delivered in time because of the holidays. I may call Stark Electronic in the morning and see if they can get me one by then. Or I may just go ahead and order the cut channel 9 and watch the game on sd cable. But sd looks really bad on a 100 in front projection










If I do try the CS1100 I'll be sure and post my results. Thanks for the help.


----------



## ssabripo

Guys,


I will try to explain the behavior of the HDTV antenna on my house, and some of my theories, and see if you guys can give me some insight:


I bought an RCA multidirectional HDTV antenna ( RCA ANT711 ... click for more info ) and hooked it up to my Sony 55XS955. It is an amplified antenna, and supposed to be multidirectional. My house receives most of the channels from Miami from the south-southeast, while receiving most of the West Palm channels via north (see below).


I first put the antenna in the roof of the patio in the back of the house, on the first floor( Pos1). I received most of the channels in both Miami and West palm, but a few of the ones in miami were coming in and out. There is equivalent houses around me, and thus, I figured that the signal was being blocked by the houses and trees that surround the south side of the house. Also, no part of the antenna was sticking out from the side (in order to get some signal from the north)


Next, I tried to move the antenna to Pos2, which sticks out a little, and although I got a little better Miami reception, I lost some of the West Palm channels from the north!!







I thought it would have been better, since the house is no longer blocking the north view, but it actually got worst!!


Next, I took the antenna to the roof (pos3), and I was able to get most of the Miami channels in good condition, but I completely lost all the west Palm ones!!!







Again, this time the houses in the back and the trees and everything shouldn't have been an issue, since it was up high, but the north side signals actually were lost!!!! I don't get it. My next move is to try to mount it on a high pole and see if that helps, but I have a feeling it may not.


My only theory for Pos3 to be worst, is that somehow I was actuall getting a signal from the north that actually bounced of the house behind me, thus it would bounce from the south side directly into my antenna....does that seem plausable?










ANy help and ideas would be appreciated.


----------



## ssabripo

here is a pic of the house and the antenna positions (this face of the house faces the south, if you want to picture it)


----------



## PhilJSmith67

cpcat is right about going with antennas cut for each channel. If your antennas are in the attic, you could make your own cut-to-length folded dipoles for channels 5 and 9.


If 5 and 9 are coming from the same direction, you could position them with the ch5 antenna behind the ch9, such that the ch5 antenna would act as a "reflector" for the shorter ch9, and the 9 antenna would act as a "director" for the 5. You wouldn't need a Jointenna to combine them, since one is VHF-Low and the other is VHF-High.


If your antennas are outside, I still agree with cpcat on getting antennas cut for each channel. This will not only give you a strong signal for 5 and 9, but it has the added benefit of rejecting FM, for which the first harmonic of a whole chunk of FM stations (93 to 96 MHz) falls all over channel 9 (186 to 192 MHz). A harmonic of an FM station might hardly show on top of an analog TV station, but it will wreak havoc on a DTV signal.


----------



## ericdwong

Hey guys Im real late on this thread, but lots of good info on here. I like the fabricators page on the 1st page that was pretty near. I do have a question- right now my antenna stack I put up many years ago, it has 3 seperate antennas. I have an winegard FM at the top, a older large dish style UHF and then a CM VHF only below that. Its approx 15 feet above the roof and I am using a rotator (horizontal only). Im running the FM directly into my FM tuner. The other 2 are combined with a radioshack UHF/VHF combiner.

I heard that there really isnt a need to split the 3 up, since I could have just used a single antenna since they're all facing the same direction and might have gotten better reception by using that at the very top. Also, I hear that since they're relatively close to each other, they may be cancelling each other out.


Another problem is due to my location, the majority of the stations sits behind a hill. At a friends house down the street they can receive some VHF washington DC stations with rabbit ears which I have trouble with using the outdoor rig... grrr.


I'm also considering trying out one of those double horizontal Yagi setups with the vertical rotator as well, just to see what I am able to reel in. Arent Yagi's usually UHF?


I'm open to input. Ill try to take pics of the rig sometime.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> here is a pic of the house and the antenna positions (this face of the house faces the south, if you want to picture it)



I appreciate the efforts you're undertaking to make it work but I'm afraid the bottom line is you'll be continually frustrated trying to make an omnidirectional antenna work for you consistently no matter what the position. The best option would be something like a CM 4221 on a rotor or alternatively two 4221's each pointed to their respective directions on separate downleads with an A/B switch. The 4221 should still get you your high band vhf.


If the West Palm stations and the Miami ones are close to 180 deg. apart from your location it may be worth it to try a single 4221 with the screen removed, but optimal reception will still be in front of the antenna.


Most likely the best position is at the peak of the roof (I'd use a wall mount with just enough clearance to clear the eave, or better yet bring it on down for a ground mount to make it even sturdier), but you might still try a couple of different locations before you do the permanent mount.


----------



## Suprfly2k

I am in the sticks, so I have no HD cable options. It looks like OTA will be my only possibility. What I need to know from you guys is, is it even a possibility, as I am pretty far away from Nashville.


I live in a flat area with no tall buildings around, some tall residential trees, in a tall two story house with a large, tall open attic.


Here are my specs from AntennaWeb:


violet - uhf WZDX 54 FOX HUNTSVILLE AL 192° 59.8 54

violet - uhf WZTV 17 FOX NASHVILLE TN 325° 47.7 17

violet - uhf WUXP 30 UPN NASHVILLE TN 335° 52.8 30

violet - vhf WSMV 4 NBC NASHVILLE TN 325° 47.7 4

violet - uhf WPGD 50 TBN HENDERSONVILLE TN 356° 61.1 50

violet - vhf WTVF 5 CBS NASHVILLE TN 335° 52.8 5

violet - vhf WNPT 8 PBS NASHVILLE TN 322° 41.4 8

violet - uhf WNPX 28 PAX COOKEVILLE TN 60° 69.9 28

violet - uhf WHTN 39 CTN MURFREESBORO TN 355° 34.3 39

violet - uhf WNAB 58 WB NASHVILLE TN 335° 52.8 58

violet - vhf WKRN 2 ABC NASHVILLE TN 322° 41.4 2

violet - uhf WJFB 66 IND LEBANON TN 0° 39.0 66

violet - uhf WAAY 31 ABC HUNTSVILLE AL 192° 59.7 31

violet - uhf WHIQ 25 PBS HUNTSVILLE AL 192° 59.7 25

violet - uhf WHNT 19 CBS HUNTSVILLE AL 192° 59.7 19

violet - uhf WAFF 48 NBC HUNTSVILLE AL 192° 61.6 48


Any hope for this poor boy who craves HD for his JVC HX1 projector?


James


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Suprfly2k_
> *I live in a flat area with no tall buildings around, some tall residential trees, in a tall two story house with a large, tall open attic.
> 
> 
> Any hope for this poor boy who craves HD for his JVC HX1 projector?
> *



You probably don't know this, but it would be good to know what the topography is between you and the broadcast towers. I know there are some hills in that area of the country (called mountains, IIRC) and if you're physically blocked by these, then it probably makes no difference what antenna you'd put up, you'd be out of luck. If, on the other hand, you shoot between peaks, or have no major ones in the way, you've got a decent chance at getting any full-powered digitals on your list.


60 miles is the theoretical limit for UHF reception, over "normal" conditions. I'm in a worse-than-average location and have some success (not perfect) at 78 miles. You can read a full workup of my life here:
http://www.geocities.com/figbert/ant...irect91xg.html 


If you're willing to invest, and you're not going through mountains, you should be able to have a fair amount of success with a top-of-the-line setup. Consider the 91XG; it's a top performer and reasonably priced. Get a 28db UHF preamplifier, preferably either a Winegard or Channel Master as these have low noise levels. Get the whole thing as high as you can. Forget the attic - it costs you 50% (or more) of your signal strength just to get through the roof. You'll have to be outside.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ericdwong_
> *I'm also considering trying out one of those double horizontal Yagi setups with the vertical rotator as well, just to see what I am able to reel in. Arent Yagi's usually UHF?*



Yes. And all the Washington D.C. digitals are UHF.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> I heard that there really isnt a need to split the 3 up, since I could have just used a single antenna since they're all facing the same direction and might have gotten better reception by using that at the very top. Also, I hear that since they're relatively close to each other, they may be cancelling each other out



Usually you can get better performance overall by separating them, assuming adequate spacing. 60 inches is a good start, but technically it varies with wavelength so you can get away with narrower for uhf but may need more for vhf. I can tell you that in my setup 60 inches does fine for down to channel 12.


UHF may benefit the most from height and typically there are more uhf stations so you might consider putting the dish on the rotor at the top and then fixing the other two beneath. Adequate spacing to rotate all 3 or even 2 will require a guyed rotator bearing or a heavy duty ham rotor else the lever arm will be too much for the usual domestic rotator such as the CM 9521.



If you have to rotate for both vhf and uhf and you don't want to get too technical, then it may be best to go with a single combo antenna, but including FM in the mix can be problematic, especially if you're using a preamp.


Pictures would be great as well as your general location.


----------



## ssabripo




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *I appreciate the efforts you're undertaking to make it work but I'm afraid the bottom line is you'll be continually frustrated trying to make an omnidirectional antenna work for you consistently no matter what the position. The best option would be something like a CM 4221 on a rotor or alternatively two 4221's each pointed to their respective directions on separate downleads with an A/B switch. The 4221 should still get you your high band vhf.
> 
> 
> If the West Palm stations and the Miami ones are close to 180 deg. apart from your location it may be worth it to try a single 4221 with the screen removed, but optimal reception will still be in front of the antenna.
> 
> 
> Most likely the best position is at the peak of the roof (I'd use a wall mount with just enough clearance to clear the eave, or better yet bring it on down for a ground mount to make it even sturdier), but you might still try a couple of different locations before you do the permanent mount.*



thanks for the info. Pardon my ignorance, but the CM 4221 is a directional antenna, correct? without having to turn to rotating motors and the like, what is the best alternative to what I have now?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> alternatively two 4221's each pointed to their respective directions on separate downleads with an A/B switch. The 4221 should still get you your high band vhf.





> Quote:
> If the West Palm stations and the Miami ones are close to 180 deg. apart from your location it may be worth it to try a single 4221 with the screen removed, but optimal reception will still be in front of the antenna.



ssabripo,

See above.

Your best alternative *is* a directional antenna. You could also consider a Antennasdirect DB4 and Winegard makes a 4-bay uhf as well.


Multipath is the bane of digital reception and omnidirectional antennas are terrible at rejecting multipath. No way around it. The new 5th generation receivers should help, but that's somewhat of an unknown right now and release dates are at least several mos. away.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Here are my specs from AntennaWeb:
> 
> violet - uhf WZDX 54 FOX HUNTSVILLE AL 192° 59.8 54
> 
> violet - uhf WZTV 17 FOX NASHVILLE TN 325° 47.7 17
> 
> violet - uhf WUXP 30 UPN NASHVILLE TN 335° 52.8 30
> 
> violet - vhf WSMV 4 NBC NASHVILLE TN 325° 47.7 4
> 
> violet - uhf WPGD 50 TBN HENDERSONVILLE TN 356° 61.1 50
> 
> violet - vhf WTVF 5 CBS NASHVILLE TN 335° 52.8 5
> 
> violet - vhf WNPT 8 PBS NASHVILLE TN 322° 41.4 8
> 
> violet - uhf WNPX 28 PAX COOKEVILLE TN 60° 69.9 28
> 
> violet - uhf WHTN 39 CTN MURFREESBORO TN 355° 34.3 39
> 
> violet - uhf WNAB 58 WB NASHVILLE TN 335° 52.8 58
> 
> violet - vhf WKRN 2 ABC NASHVILLE TN 322° 41.4 2
> 
> violet - uhf WJFB 66 IND LEBANON TN 0° 39.0 66
> 
> violet - uhf WAAY 31 ABC HUNTSVILLE AL 192° 59.7 31
> 
> violet - uhf WHIQ 25 PBS HUNTSVILLE AL 192° 59.7 25
> 
> violet - uhf WHNT 19 CBS HUNTSVILLE AL 192° 59.7 19
> 
> violet - uhf WAFF 48 NBC HUNTSVILLE AL 192° 61.6 48



I assume you know those are all analog. Check http://www.tvradioworld.com for access to all the station info you need so you'll know the *actual* DTV channel you're trying to receive (not the virtual one, which typically corresponds to the old analog channel). You can also go to http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp and punch in your coordinates in decimal form for bearings to all the stations. You should have a good shot at a bunch of them. I echo sregener's advice and would add that you'll need a rotator as well.


For high band (7-13) vhf (Nashville's NBC is 10) you might consider adding a separate vhf antenna such as an Antennacraft Y10 7-13 and mount it below the uhf. Be sure your preamp has separate vhf/uhf 75 ohm inputs. The CM 7777 is a good choice.


----------



## Suprfly2k

Thanks guys. I'll look into this and will get back to you when I have more questions.


----------



## jimc705

Superfly


50 miles is not that far with a good antenna system. If you are getting good analog reception now then you probably will get good digital. I use the 91xg and get excellent digital reception from 70+ miles with no amp signal level in the 80 and 90's. A few of those stations are at low power.


Took a quick look at Nashville digitals and it looks like you have 7 digitals. The only VHF digital is 10. Here's a link to channels 10 coverage area.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DT616584.html 


All the others are UHF 15, 21, 27,46, and 56. Here's the link to check the other stations. Punch in their call sign then look for red digital then click on alternate map link. Some stations will have 2 Digitals one which is low power the other will be full power July 1 2005.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/tvq.html 


If you are in the coverage area you should have little trouble getting them. If you are outside or on the fringe end of the coverage area then it's still not impossible but much harder. I'm out of the coverage area on 6 of mine but still get very good reception.


Looks like you may be in an excellent area to get digital from more then one market if you use a rotor. You may be close enough to Huntsvillle AL to get them also if you are south of nashville especially.


You'll need a good UHF 91xg Antannas Direct, Channel Master 4228 etc. and if you want DT 10 get a cut channel 10. I assume you are only after the digitals. If you want both analog and digital then you'll have to go with a full VHF band antenna for you have analog in both high and low band.

Need links or help feel free to email me [email protected] 


FYI from Morristown TN I get digitals from Norton and Grundy Va. Bristol , Johnson City, Kingsport, Greenville, and Knoxville TN and Asheville NC.


----------



## pti711

Live between 50 to 100 miles from my channel tranmitters. Beleive it or not I could receive all of my major networks NBC,CBS and ABC but had a hard time with fox(having alot of break ups except late at night) I had a radioshck Vr90?? UHF/VHF antenna (36 element with 80in boom)with no pre-amp. So I decided to purchase a winegard PR9032 UHF antenna and a channel master 7777 pre-amp and also a channel master antenna rotor. So I spent most of the day installing the above items and when finished I was excited because I knew the FOX channel would rock solid now but to my surprise I could not even get a signal lock. I moved the antenna back and forth in small increments but no luck. So I then went to radioshack and picked up a attenuator thinking maybe I was creating an signal overload but still no luck. Did I do something wrong or did I purchase the wrong items????? P.S I have a dish 811 receiver with a 20ft antenna mask. I know all of my channels are on the UHF band.


----------



## Inundated




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by pti711_
> *I know all of my channels are on the UHF band.*



I'm gonna try not to get into my "tell us where you are, already!" rant, but...










Plug your address into www.antennaweb.org and tell us what you get, particularly for the Fox station - heck, for all of 'em. It's possible the station is A) farther away or otherwise oriented away from the other sticks or B) the station is on a lower power level, using an "STA" (Special Temporary Authority) at a fraction of what it'll be when it goes full power.


You don't have to post your home address or even city...just tell us what TV market (major metro area) you're in/trying to get channels from.


----------



## nebari

Hello all. I have now read this entire thread and have learned a great deal. However, I have a couple questions.


First the background info. I am in Biloxi, MS (zip=39531) and exactly half way between the New Orleans and Mobile transmitters. Both antennaweb and 2150.com indicate that the majority of the towers are between 61 and 71 miles away. I am really interested in the New Orleans market. Fortunately, all the towers are right at 255 degrees.


Locally I recieve ABC, FOX, PBS OTA that I have tested with Silver Sensor that I am "borrowing" from Sears. These towers vary from 9 to 25 miles away and from 325-20 degree azimuth. I purchased a MyHD 120 card that I will install into my HTPC tomorrow. This card has 2 rg-6 ANT inputs.


Geographically, the terrain is flat and I think most of the distance between my home and the towers is just off the coast line. No huge barriers just other 1 story homes.


Specifically, chimney is of 2x4, plywood and polystyrene construction and ~ 25' AGL. It has surface that faces almost exactly 260 degrees. HOWEVER, the internal flue and cap are sheet metal which would be "behind" the antenna if mounted flat onto the western face of the chimney. This is a pleasing solution asthetically and functinally (ie no guy wires and minimal wind load with multiple direct points of fixation)


This is my plan: attic mounted SS/DB2 with out amp to one input of the MyHD 120 card. Next, a DB4 or DB8 mounted to the western face of the chimney with a CM7777 pre-amp to the other ANT input.


How bad would the rear metal structures interfere with such distant signals?


I could put a small mast to lift it just above the chimney cap. The 91XG is also a consideration as I could place a mast on the eastern side (back of the house) and point it westward over the chimney.


Any suggestions or comments welcome. Happy Holidays - Scott


----------



## nebari

Here is my info from antennaweb. I have deleted the Mobile/Pensacola data. Note only the local channels are listed as DT. I an only intersted in HD broadcasts as I already have digital cable.


If interested my coordinates are:

Lat: 30.403118

Long: -088.985005
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp 


yellow - uhf WLOX-DT 13.1 ABC BILOXI MS 341° 23.3 39

green - uhf W35BM 35 TBN BILOXI MS 251° 2.3 35

lt green - vhf WLOX 13 ABC BILOXI MS 341° 23.4 13

lt green - uhf WMAH 19 PBS BILOXI MS 2° 24.2 19

lt green - uhf WXXV 25 FOX GULFPORT MS 346° 24.4 25

red - uhf WXXV-DT 25.1 FOX GULFPORT MS 306° 10.6 48

red - uhf WMAH-DT 16.1 PBS BILOXI MS 2° 24.3 16

violet - vhf WYES 12 PBS NEW ORLEANS LA 242° 66.5 12

violet - vhf WVUE 8 FOX NEW ORLEANS LA 242° 66.5 8

violet - vhf WWL 4 CBS NEW ORLEANS LA 242° 72.9 4

violet - uhf WNOL 38 WB NEW ORLEANS LA 243° 65.3 38

violet - uhf WUPL 54 UPN SLIDELL LA 262° 56.7 54

violet - uhf WGNO 26 ABC NEW ORLEANS LA 244° 65.7 26

violet - uhf WLAE 32 PBS NEW ORLEANS LA 244° 65.8 32

violet - vhf WDSU 6 NBC NEW ORLEANS LA 242° 67.2 6

violet - uhf W51CU 51 TBN PASCAGOULA MS 82° 24.7 51


Thanks - Scott


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by nebari_
> *Here is my info from antennaweb. I have deleted the Mobile/Pensacola data. Note only the local channels are listed as DT. I an only intersted in HD broadcasts as I already have digital cable.
> 
> 
> If interested my coordinates are:
> 
> Lat: 30.403118
> 
> Long: -088.985005
> http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp
> 
> 
> yellow - uhf WLOX-DT 13.1 ABC BILOXI MS 341° 23.3 39
> 
> green - uhf W35BM 35 TBN BILOXI MS 251° 2.3 35
> 
> lt green - vhf WLOX 13 ABC BILOXI MS 341° 23.4 13
> 
> lt green - uhf WMAH 19 PBS BILOXI MS 2° 24.2 19
> 
> lt green - uhf WXXV 25 FOX GULFPORT MS 346° 24.4 25
> 
> red - uhf WXXV-DT 25.1 FOX GULFPORT MS 306° 10.6 48
> 
> red - uhf WMAH-DT 16.1 PBS BILOXI MS 2° 24.3 16
> 
> violet - vhf WYES 12 PBS NEW ORLEANS LA 242° 66.5 12
> 
> violet - vhf WVUE 8 FOX NEW ORLEANS LA 242° 66.5 8
> 
> violet - vhf WWL 4 CBS NEW ORLEANS LA 242° 72.9 4
> 
> violet - uhf WNOL 38 WB NEW ORLEANS LA 243° 65.3 38
> 
> violet - uhf WUPL 54 UPN SLIDELL LA 262° 56.7 54
> 
> violet - uhf WGNO 26 ABC NEW ORLEANS LA 244° 65.7 26
> 
> violet - uhf WLAE 32 PBS NEW ORLEANS LA 244° 65.8 32
> 
> violet - vhf WDSU 6 NBC NEW ORLEANS LA 242° 67.2 6
> 
> violet - uhf W51CU 51 TBN PASCAGOULA MS 82° 24.7 51
> 
> 
> Thanks - Scott*



Are you giving up on Mobile, then? It would seem to make more sense to me to mount the antenna where you could rotate it freely to take advantage of your proximity to two different markets. A chimney mount tends to be more difficult than doing a ground mount on the side of the house, as well. Finally, the interaction b/w the antenna and the metal chimney liner would be unpredictable and if it is a problem you've done alot of work for no gain. If you raise it above the chimney, the wind load (esp. with an 8-bay) would be risky for a chimney mount. You might consider consulting with a professional installer.


If it were me, I'd go with a ground mount and keep your options open for other markets.

You'll need to mount where the chimney doesnt' block LOS to New Orleans.

You could also consider taking the small antenna up on the roof on a calm day and checking to see where the best signal locations are.


----------



## dswallow

Since it seems posting for help is pretty common, I've added a vBulletin-formatted version of the report to the FCC lookup tool at http://www.2150.com/broadcast/ . Here's the output for the lat/long given a few posts back:


View full report 


*Digital Television Stations (including Special Temporary Authority)*
STATION CHANNEL DIRECTION DISTANCE         ERP      HAAT CIT Y/LICENSEE
WMAH-DT  UHF 16    5.7°   24.43mi     150.00kW   1,565ft (BILOXI, MS) MISSISSIPPI AUTHORITY FOR EDUCATIONAL TELEVISION
WMPV-DT  UHF 20   71.2°   53.19mi       0.60kW     220ft (MOBILE, AL) TRINITY BROADCASTING NETWORK
WKRG-DT  UHF 27   74.3°   71.49mi      55.00kW     834ft (MOBILE, AL) MEDIA GENERAL BROADCASTING OF SOUTH CAROLINA HOLDINGS, INC.
WALA-DT  *VHF*  9   74.3°   73.31mi      16.50kW   1,250ft (MOBILE, AL) EMMIS TELEVISION LICENSE, LLC
WEIQ-DT  UHF 41   74.7°   67.38mi     199.00kW     607ft (MOBILE, AL) ALABAMA EDUCATIONAL TELEVISION COMMISSION
WHBR-DT  UHF 34   78.9°   81.11mi     108.00kW   1,362ft (PENSACOLA, FL) CHRISTIAN TELEVISION OF PENSACOLA/MOBILE, INC.
WEAR-DT  UHF 17   79.6°   81.05mi       8.30kW     337ft (PENSACOLA, FL) WEAR LICENSEE, LLC
WSRE-DT  UHF 31   79.9°   83.25mi     287.00kW   1,801ft (PENSACOLA, FL) DST .BD. OF TRUSTEES PENSACOLA JR. COLLEGE
WPMI-DT  UHF 47   79.9°   83.25mi   1,000.00kW   1,831ft (MOBILE, AL) CLEAR CHANNEL BROADCASTING LICENSES, INC.
WJTC-DT  UHF 45   81.3°   86.17mi   1,000.00kW   1,499ft (PENSACOLA, FL) CLEAR CHANNEL BROADCASTING LICENSES, INC.
NEW      UHF 36  221.0°   64.81mi     200.00kW     279ft (SPRINGFIELD, IL) ESP TECHNOLOGY COMMUNITY BROADCASTERS
WWL-DT   UHF 36  241.9°   71.75mi     319.00kW   1,020ft (NEW ORLEANS, LA) WWL-TV, INC.
WWL-DT   UHF 36  241.9°   71.75mi     957.80kW   1,020ft (NEW ORLEANS, LA) WWL-TV, INC.
WYES-DT  *VHF* 11  242.1°   65.44mi      70.80kW   1,004ft (NEW ORLEANS, LA) GREATER NEW ORLEANS ED TV FOUNDATION
WVUE-DT  UHF 29  242.1°   65.44mi      33.70kW     902ft (NEW ORLEANS, LA) EMMIS TELEVISION LICENSE, LLC
WDSU-DT  UHF 43  242.1°   66.01mi     445.00kW     755ft (NEW ORLEANS, LA) NEW ORLEANS HEARST-ARGYLE TELEVISION, INC.
WHNO-DT  UHF 21  242.2°   70.52mi      17.00kW     833ft (NEW ORLEANS, LA) LESEA BROADCASTING CORPORATION
WUPL-DT  UHF 24  242.2°   70.52mi   1,000.00kW     892ft (SLIDELL, LA) UPN TELEVISION STATIONS INC.
WPXL-DT  UHF 50  242.2°   70.52mi   1,000.00kW     892ft (NEW ORLEANS, LA) FLINN BROADCASTING CORPORATION
WGNO-DT  UHF 15  243.7°   64.51mi     500.00kW     433ft (NEW ORLEANS, LA) TRIBUNE TELEVISION NEW ORLEANS, INC.
WGNO-DT  UHF 15  243.7°   64.51mi     800.00kW     433ft (NEW ORLEANS, LA) TRIBUNE TELEVISION NEW ORLEANS, INC.
WNOL-DT  UHF 40  243.7°   64.51mi     500.00kW     433ft (NEW ORLEANS, LA) TRIBUNE TELEVISION NEW ORLEANS, INC.
WUPL-DT  UHF 24  262.0°   55.44mi       3.00kW     493ft (SLIDELL, LA) UPN TELEVISION STATIONS INC.
WXXV-DT  UHF 48  311.4°    9.61mi      13.00kW     143ft (GULFPORT, MS) MORRIS NETWORK OF MISSISSIPPI, INC.
WLOX-DT  UHF 39  344.3°   22.99mi     715.00kW   1,201ft (BILOXI, MS) LIBCO, INC.
WDAM-DT  UHF 28  346.5°   74.71mi      79.00kW     420ft (LAUREL, MS) WDAM LICENSE SUBSIDIARY, INC.

Data compiled from FCC database on 12/21/2004.


----------



## pti711

I live in Ridgeway VA. which is between two markets, Roanoke Va. which is 50 miles north and the Greensboro NC. market which 50 miles to the south. On a clear non windy day I can pick up the Raleigh NC. market as well. I live on a hill with a clear view of the southern sky. I will try different things later: remove pre-amp and if that doesn't work then install old antenna with pre-amp to see if that works. I will post the results once the changes have been made.


----------



## ericdwong

I installed the remote control C Master control unit last night. I dunno why the _ I didnt install this YEARS ago. I was still using those mechanical ones that make all the noise that you had to put in by hand. I just clipped the wires and put it in, using the existing rotator. I did get the entire kit cause my over a decade old rotator lost its braking ability, anytime there is wind the rotator shifts around, so hopefully the new rotator will cure that. Right now my 0 deg N is WAYY off, its almost 200 degrees off, but I will hopefully correct that when I redo the rotor and then ultimately the entire antenna stack.


----------



## powdercarrot

I'm planning to mount an outdoor antenna for OTA. I currently have a silver sensor and it works well with considerable adjustments, but drops signal too often. I have a D* triple LNB dish running to a Sammy SRTS160. My questions are:


1. How should I run the line from the antenna to the receiver? Can I somehow combine it with the sat line or do I need to run a new one?


2. What short range outdoor antenna do you recommend?


3. Are there any good web sites with advice on installation?


----------



## ericdwong

Ok here it is: Pic of my setup. In a nutshell, the main mast is a piece of fence posting. It is supported by concrete in the ground, as well as the chimey straps. The rotator is mounted about 1/2 way down the chimney. I'm also using 2 rotator bearings so the majority of the mast has the 2 masts running side by side. The top rotator bearing is guyed to the house.


From the pic you can see the VHF only is at the bottom, the dish looking UHF is at the top and the FM only is at the very top. I wonder if these are too close to each other even though they're all running different frequencies. Right now I'm running no preamp, but do have a radio shack 4 way distribuation amp to help drive the signal through out the house.


I plan to probably ditch the channel master dish looking UHF and try out one of those Yagi style ones.


So far this stack has survived 10 years from everything such as icing in the inter as well as Tropical Storm Isabel last year.


I have no complaints about the FM or the VHF, but the UHF has something to be desired. I'm looking for any type of advice, good or bad.


I should mention that right now I am only using analog TV. Hopefully today, my dish 811 will arrive so I can try out digital TV. Also, according to the antenna web, I'm sort of on a side of a hill but I think my main (baltimore) stations I watch are just grazing the side of that hill. I think this hill is what is causing some multipath (or blocking some of the UHF altogether) especially in the UHF.


I'd like to get an elevation (what kind of map is that called?) so I can do some better calculations/drawings.






























Here are the antenna web calculations, although it does not show anything for Washington DC, I am able to get most of those stations as my setup is now.

View full report 


*Digital Television Stations (including Special Temporary Authority)*
STATION CHANNEL DIRECTION DISTANCE         ERP      HAAT CIT Y/LICENSEE
WMPB-DT  UHF 29  267.0°   19.10mi      14.00kW   1,014ft (BALTIMORE, MD) MARYLAND PUBLIC BROADCASTING COMMISSION
WGCB-DT  UHF 30  356.7°   27.39mi      50.00kW     554ft (RED LION, PA) RED LION BROADCASTING CO., INC.
WPMT-DT  UHF 47  359.2°   35.77mi       0.75kW   1,263ft (YORK, PA) TRIBUNE TELEVISION COMPANY
WPMT-DT  UHF 47  359.2°   35.77mi     933.00kW   1,263ft (YORK, PA) TRIBUNE TELEVISION COMPANY
WPMT-DT  UHF 47  359.2°   35.77mi      10.00kW     961ft (YORK, PA) TRIBUNE TELEVISION COMPANY
WGAL     UHF 58  357.9°   36.50mi     907.00kW   1,289ft (LANCASTER, PA) WGAL HEARST-ARGYLE TELEVISION, INC.
WMPT-DT  UHF 42  207.9°   36.77mi     150.00kW     948ft (ANNAPOLIS, MD) MARYLAND PUBLIC BROADCASTING COMMISSION
WLYH-DT  UHF 23   11.6°   50.97mi     325.00kW   1,266ft (LANCASTER, PA) TELEVISION STATION GROUP LICENSE SUBSIDIARY, LLC
WFDC-DT  UHF 15  234.0°   53.17mi      82.00kW     568ft (ARLINGTON, VA) TELEFUTURA D.C. LLC
WETA-DT  UHF 27  233.9°   57.45mi      75.00kW     581ft (WASHINGTON, DC) THE GREATER WASHINGTON EDUCATIONAL TELECOMMUNICATIONS ASSOC

*Analog Television Stations*
STATION CHANNEL DIRECTION DISTANCE         ERP      HAAT CIT Y/LICENSEE
WMPB     UHF 67  267.4°   18.89mi     646.00kW     820ft (BALTIMORE, MD) MARYLAND PUBLIC BROADCASTING COMMISSION
WGCB-TV  UHF 49  356.8°   27.38mi     617.00kW     581ft (RED LION, PA) RED LION BROADCASTING CO., INC.
WPMT     UHF 43  359.2°   35.75mi   2,140.00kW   1,362ft (YORK, PA) TRIBUNE TELEVISION COMPANY
WGAL     *VHF*  8  357.9°   36.50mi     110.00kW   1,375ft (LANCASTER, PA) WGAL HEARST-ARGYLE TELEVISION, INC.
WMPT     UHF 22  207.9°   36.77mi   5,000.00kW     896ft (ANNAPOLIS, MD) MARYLAND PUBLIC BROADCASTING COMMISSION
WFPT     UHF 62  262.2°   50.23mi   2,500.00kW     522ft (FREDERICK, MD) MARYLAND PUBLIC BROADCASTING COMMISSION
WFPT     UHF 62  265.6°   50.88mi   3,160.00kW     453ft (FREDERICK, MD) MARYLAND PUBLIC BROADCASTING COMMISSION
WLYH-TV  UHF 15   11.5°   50.94mi   1,050.00kW   1,362ft (LANCASTER, PA) TELEVISION STATION GROUP LICENSE SUBSIDIARY, LLC
WETA-TV  UHF 26  236.1°   52.78mi   2,290.00kW     771ft (WASHINGTON, DC) THE GREATER WASHINGTON EDUCATIONAL TELECOMMUNICATIONS ASSOC
WHUT-TV  UHF 32  236.1°   52.78mi   5,000.00kW     699ft (WASHINGTON, DC) HOWARD UNIVERSITY
940630KG UHF 51   41.6°   59.99mi   5,000.00kW     502ft (READING, PA) ADAMS COMMUNICATIONS CORPORATION

Data compiled from FCC database on 12/21/2004.



EDIT: the 2050 site I cant seem to list any of the Baltimore stations (and thats the closest city, only 20 miles or so away). How strange. Any ideas???


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ericdwong_
> *EDIT: the 2050 site I cant seem to list any of the Baltimore stations (and thats the closest city, only 20 miles or so away). How strange. Any ideas???*



The FCC data is a mess. Many licenses are marked to expire in 10/2004; check the "Show expired records" checkbox and rerun it.


I haven't found a reliable way to prune back data from prior applications -- one that seems clearly to work in all the markets I try it on, to give a list of the cuirrent state of each station. So it ends up being left to you to make some choices right now to figure out what is and isn't a reflection of reality.










Obviously it was somewhat wrong of me to think when a license is expired an new application or license would be in the system to rely upon. I'll have to find a means to work around this one, now.


----------



## DennyH

Easy, quick question: Are standoffs a necessity. I didnt use any when I set up my 3020 today. Just used tie raps to attach the cable to the pole. I am getting NO digital channels. D*tv installed a puny batwing previously, and it gets 3 digital channels. When I installed the 3020 I fully expected much better reception. This standoff thing is the only thing I can think of that could be wrong with the setup, but I dont want to get back out in the COOOOLD weather if its not a problem.

Thanks, and MERRY CHRISTMAS!!

dj


----------



## ericdwong

Ahhh, much better. In any case, somehow I got lucky that the vast majority of stations I need to watch (both Baltimore and Washington) are all at the same angle! looks like 234.4 degrees is my magic number. But also, the Philadelphia stations that I can try to reel in from time to time are all along the same line, so now I can program the rotator's presets


View full report 


*Digital Television Stations (including Special Temporary Authority)*
STATION CHANNEL DIRECTION DISTANCE         ERP      HAAT CIT Y/LICENSEE
WNUV-DT  UHF 40  234.4°   17.33mi     845.00kW   1,223ft (BALTIMORE, MD) BALTIMORE (WNUV-TV) LICENSEE, INC.
WNUV-DT  UHF 40  234.4°   17.33mi       9.20kW   1,223ft (BALTIMORE, MD) BALTIMORE (WNUV-TV) LICENSEE, INC.
WBFF-DT  UHF 46  234.4°   17.33mi     550.00kW   1,223ft (BALTIMORE, MD) CHESAPEAKE TELEVISION LICENSEE, LLC
WBFF-DT  UHF 46  234.4°   17.33mi      35.00kW   1,119ft (BALTIMORE, MD) CHESAPEAKE TELEVISION LICENSEE, LLC
WBFF-DT  UHF 46  234.4°   17.33mi      46.60kW   1,223ft (BALTIMORE, MD) CHESAPEAKE TELEVISION LICENSEE, LLC
WJZ-DT   UHF 38  234.4°   17.43mi     522.00kW   1,024ft (BALTIMORE, MD) VIACOM INC.
WMAR-DT  UHF 52  234.4°   17.43mi     602.00kW   1,020ft (BALTIMORE, MD) SCRIPPS HOWARD BROADCASTING COMPANY
WBAL-DT  UHF 59  234.4°   17.44mi     513.00kW   1,024ft (BALTIMORE, MD) WBAL HEARST-ARGYLE TV, INC. (CA CORP.)
WMPB-DT  UHF 29  267.0°   19.10mi      14.00kW   1,014ft (BALTIMORE, MD) MARYLAND PUBLIC BROADCASTING COMMISSION
WMPB     UHF 29  267.0°   19.10mi      14.00kW   1,014ft (BALTIMORE, MD) MARYLAND PUBLIC BROADCASTING COMMISSION
WUTB-DT  UHF 41  239.9°   23.86mi       0.53kW   1,030ft (BALTIMORE, MD) FOX TELEVISION STATIONS, INC.
WGCB-DT  UHF 30  356.7°   27.39mi     500.00kW     572ft (RED LION, PA) RED LION BROADCASTING CO., INC.
WGCB-DT  UHF 30  356.7°   27.39mi      50.00kW     554ft (RED LION, PA) RED LION BROADCASTING CO., INC.
WPMT-DT  UHF 47  359.2°   35.77mi     933.00kW   1,263ft (YORK, PA) TRIBUNE TELEVISION COMPANY
WPMT-DT  UHF 47  359.2°   35.77mi       0.75kW   1,263ft (YORK, PA) TRIBUNE TELEVISION COMPANY
WPMT-DT  UHF 47  359.2°   35.77mi      10.00kW     961ft (YORK, PA) TRIBUNE TELEVISION COMPANY
WGAL     UHF 58  357.9°   36.50mi     907.00kW   1,289ft (LANCASTER, PA) WGAL HEARST-ARGYLE TELEVISION, INC.
WMPT-DT  UHF 42  207.9°   36.77mi     150.00kW     948ft (ANNAPOLIS, MD) MARYLAND PUBLIC BROADCASTING COMMISSION
WBDC-DT  UHF 51  232.5°   50.10mi     125.00kW     828ft (WASHINGTON, DC) WBDC BROADCASTING, INC.
WLYH-DT  UHF 23   11.6°   50.97mi     325.00kW   1,266ft (LANCASTER, PA) TELEVISION STATION GROUP LICENSE SUBSIDIARY, LLC
WDCA-DT  UHF 35  234.8°   52.38mi       1.17kW     479ft (WASHINGTON, DC) FOX TELEVISION STATIONS, INC.
WTTG-DT  UHF 36  234.8°   52.38mi   1,000.00kW     659ft (WASHINGTON, DC) FOX TELEVISION STATIONS, INC.
WHUT-DT  UHF 33  234.4°   52.56mi     100.00kW     833ft (WASHINGTON, DC) HOWARD UNIVERSITY
WUSA-DT  UHF 34  234.4°   52.56mi   1,000.00kW     833ft (WASHINGTON, DC) THE DETROIT NEWS, INC.
WDCA     UHF 35  234.4°   52.56mi     500.00kW     833ft (WASHINGTON, DC) FOX TELEVISION STATIONS, INC.
WJLA-DT  UHF 39  234.4°   52.56mi   1,000.00kW     833ft (WASHINGTON, DC) ACC LICENSEE, INC.
WJLA-DT  UHF 39  234.4°   52.59mi     646.00kW     833ft (WASHINGTON, DC) ACC LICENSEE, INC.
WFDC-DT  UHF 15  234.0°   53.17mi      82.00kW     568ft (ARLINGTON, VA) TELEFUTURA D.C. LLC
WRC-DT   UHF 48  234.0°   53.18mi     813.00kW     794ft (WASHINGTON, DC) NBC TELEMUNDO LICENSE CO.
WETA-DT  UHF 27  233.9°   57.45mi      75.00kW     581ft (WASHINGTON, DC) THE GREATER WASHINGTON EDUCATIONAL TELECOMMUNICATIONS ASSOC
WHTM-DT  *VHF* 10  346.9°   61.06mi      16.20kW   1,021ft (HARRISBURG, PA) HARRISBURG TELEVISION, INC.
WHP-DT   *VHF*  4  351.4°   61.13mi       2.30kW   1,145ft (HARRISBURG, PA) CLEAR CHANNEL BROADCASTING LICENSES, INC.
WHP-DT   *VHF*  4  351.4°   61.13mi       0.57kW   1,145ft (HARRISBURG, PA) CLEAR CHANNEL BROADCASTING LICENSES, INC.
WITF-DT  UHF 36  351.4°   61.18mi      50.00kW   1,348ft (HARRISBURG, PA) WITF, INC.
WNVC-DT  UHF 57  236.6°   61.62mi       7.30kW     570ft (FAIRFAX, VA) COMMONWEALTH PUBLIC BROADCASTING CORPORATION
WTVE-DT  UHF 25   39.5°   63.97mi       0.63kW     719ft (READING, PA) READING BROADCASTING, INC.
WTVE-DT  UHF 25   48.2°   68.16mi     900.00kW   1,297ft (READING, PA) READING BROADCASTING, INC.
WPXW     UHF 43  236.7°   69.90mi      90.00kW     623ft (MANASSAS, VA) PAXSON WASHINGTON LICENSE, INC.
KYW-DT   UHF 26   73.5°   72.78mi     770.00kW   1,230ft (PHILADELPHIA, PA) CBS BROADCASTING INC.
WPVI-DT  UHF 64   73.5°   72.78mi     500.00kW   1,280ft (PHILADELPHIA, PA) ABC, INC.
WGTW     UHF 27   73.4°   72.80mi     225.00kW   1,099ft (BURLINGTON, NJ) BRUNSON COMMUNICATIONS, INC.
WHYY-DT  UHF 55   73.5°   72.87mi     337.00kW     850ft (WILMINGTON, DE) WHYY, INC.
WHYY-DT  UHF 55   73.5°   72.87mi      87.00kW     850ft (WILMINGTON, DE) WHYY, INC.
WGTW-DT  UHF 27   73.6°   73.03mi       3.30kW     820ft (BURLINGTON, NJ) BRUNSON COMMUNICATIONS, INC.
WPPX-DT  UHF 31   73.6°   73.03mi     200.00kW   1,227ft (WILMINGTON, DE) PAXSON PHILADELPHIA LICENSE, INC.
WPSG-DT  UHF 32   73.6°   73.03mi     250.00kW   1,312ft (PHILADELPHIA, PA) VIACOM STATIONS GROUP OF PHILADELPHIA INC.
WYBE-DT  UHF 34   73.6°   73.03mi     500.00kW   1,125ft (PHILADELPHIA, PA) INDEPENDENCE PUBLIC MEDIA OF PHILADELPHIA, INC.
WPHL-DT  UHF 54   73.6°   73.03mi     500.00kW   1,161ft (PHILADELPHIA, PA) TRIBUNE TELEVISION COMPANY
WUVP-DT  UHF 66   73.6°   73.03mi     500.00kW   1,299ft (VINELAND, NJ) UNIVISION PHILADELPHIA LLC
WCAU-DT  UHF 67   73.6°   73.03mi     560.00kW   1,237ft (PHILADELPHIA, PA) NBC TELEMUNDO LICENSE CO.
WDPB-DT  UHF 44  156.7°   74.68mi      98.00kW     643ft (SEAFORD, DE) WHYY, INC.
WMDT-DT  UHF 53  164.9°   80.14mi      25.10kW     938ft (SALISBURY, MD) DELMARVA BROADCAST SERVICE GENERAL PARTNERSHIP
WMDT     UHF 53  164.9°   80.15mi     250.00kW     958ft (SALISBURY, MD) DELMARVA BROADCAST SERVICE GENERAL PARTNERSHIP

*Analog Television Stations*
STATION CHANNEL DIRECTION DISTANCE         ERP      HAAT CIT Y/LICENSEE
WBFF     UHF 45  234.4°   17.34mi   1,290.00kW   1,266ft (BALTIMORE, MD) CHESAPEAKE TELEVISION LICENSEE, LLC
WMAR-TV  *VHF*  2  234.4°   17.42mi     100.00kW     974ft (BALTIMORE, MD) SCRIPPS HOWARD BROADCASTING COMPANY
WBAL-TV  *VHF* 11  234.4°   17.44mi     316.00kW     981ft (BALTIMORE, MD) WBAL HEARST-ARGYLE TV, INC. (CA CORP.)
WJZ-TV   *VHF* 13  234.4°   17.44mi     316.00kW     958ft (BALTIMORE, MD) VIACOM INC.
WMPB     UHF 67  267.4°   18.89mi     646.00kW     820ft (BALTIMORE, MD) MARYLAND PUBLIC BROADCASTING COMMISSION
WMPB     UHF 67  267.0°   19.10mi   1,000.00kW   1,014ft (BALTIMORE, MD) MARYLAND PUBLIC BROADCASTING COMMISSION
WUTB     UHF 24  240.0°   23.85mi   1,170.00kW   1,070ft (BALTIMORE, MD) FOX TELEVISION STATIONS, INC.
WNUV     UHF 54  240.0°   23.85mi   5,000.00kW   1,145ft (BALTIMORE, MD) BALTIMORE (WNUV-TV) LICENSEE, INC.
WGCB-TV  UHF 49  356.8°   27.38mi     617.00kW     581ft (RED LION, PA) RED LION BROADCASTING CO., INC.
WPMT     UHF 43  359.2°   35.75mi   2,140.00kW   1,362ft (YORK, PA) TRIBUNE TELEVISION COMPANY
WGAL     *VHF*  8  357.9°   36.50mi     110.00kW   1,375ft (LANCASTER, PA) WGAL HEARST-ARGYLE TELEVISION, INC.
WMPT     UHF 22  207.9°   36.77mi   5,000.00kW     896ft (ANNAPOLIS, MD) MARYLAND PUBLIC BROADCASTING COMMISSION
WFPT     UHF 62  262.2°   50.23mi   2,500.00kW     522ft (FREDERICK, MD) MARYLAND PUBLIC BROADCASTING COMMISSION
WBDC-TV  UHF 50  232.5°   50.10mi   4,178.00kW     828ft (WASHINGTON, DC) WBDC BROADCASTING, INC.
WBDC-TV  UHF 50  232.5°   50.13mi   2,450.00kW     810ft (WASHINGTON, DC) WBDC BROADCASTING, INC.
WFPT     UHF 62  265.6°   50.88mi   3,160.00kW     453ft (FREDERICK, MD) MARYLAND PUBLIC BROADCASTING COMMISSION
WLYH-TV  UHF 15   11.5°   50.94mi   1,050.00kW   1,362ft (LANCASTER, PA) TELEVISION STATION GROUP LICENSE SUBSIDIARY, LLC
WTTG     *VHF*  5  234.8°   52.37mi     100.00kW     771ft (WASHINGTON, DC) FOX TELEVISION STATIONS, INC.
WJLA-TV  *VHF*  7  234.4°   52.56mi     316.00kW     771ft (WASHINGTON, DC) ACC LICENSEE, INC.
WUSA     *VHF*  9  234.4°   52.56mi     316.00kW     771ft (WASHINGTON, DC) THE DETROIT NEWS, INC.
WDCA     UHF 20  236.2°   52.76mi   3,980.00kW     771ft (WASHINGTON, DC) FOX TELEVISION STATIONS, INC.
WETA-TV  UHF 26  236.1°   52.78mi   2,290.00kW     771ft (WASHINGTON, DC) THE GREATER WASHINGTON EDUCATIONAL TELECOMMUNICATIONS ASSOC
WHUT-TV  UHF 32  236.1°   52.78mi   5,000.00kW     699ft (WASHINGTON, DC) HOWARD UNIVERSITY
WRC-TV   *VHF*  4  234.0°   53.18mi     100.00kW     745ft (WASHINGTON, DC) NBC TELEMUNDO LICENSE CO.
WTMW     UHF 14  234.0°   53.18mi   2,880.00kW     568ft (ARLINGTON, VA) TELEFUTURA D.C. LLC
940630KG UHF 51   41.6°   59.99mi   5,000.00kW     502ft (READING, PA) ADAMS COMMUNICATIONS CORPORATION
WHTM-TV  UHF 27  346.9°   61.07mi   2,140.00kW   1,135ft (HARRISBURG, PA) HARRISBURG TELEVISION, INC.
WHP-TV   UHF 21  351.4°   61.13mi   1,200.00kW   1,220ft (HARRISBURG, PA) CLEAR CHANNEL BROADCASTING LICENSES, INC.
WITF-TV  UHF 33  351.4°   61.16mi   1,100.00kW   1,401ft (HARRISBURG, PA) WITF, INC.
WNVC     UHF 56  236.6°   61.63mi   1,230.00kW     732ft (FAIRFAX, VA) COMMONWEALTH PUBLIC BROADCASTING CORPORATION
WPPX     UHF 61   91.9°   61.67mi   3,020.00kW     958ft (WILMINGTON, DE) PAXSON PHILADELPHIA LICENSE, INC.
WTVE     UHF 51   39.5°   63.95mi   1,450.00kW     751ft (READING, PA) READING BROADCASTING, INC.
WTVE     UHF 51   39.5°   63.97mi   4,950.00kW     843ft (READING, PA) READING BROADCASTING, INC.
WPXW     UHF 66  236.7°   69.90mi   3,400.00kW     623ft (MANASSAS, VA) PAXSON WASHINGTON LICENSE, INC.
WGTW     UHF 48   73.4°   72.80mi   2,340.00kW   1,099ft (BURLINGTON, NJ) BRUNSON COMMUNICATIONS, INC.
WHYY-TV  *VHF* 12   73.5°   72.87mi     309.00kW     965ft (WILMINGTON, DE) WHYY, INC.
WPHL-TV  UHF 17   73.5°   72.87mi   2,340.00kW   1,050ft (PHILADELPHIA, PA) TRIBUNE TELEVISION COMPANY
WTXF-TV  UHF 29   73.6°   72.88mi   5,000.00kW   1,138ft (PHILADELPHIA, PA) FOX TV STATIONS OF PHILADELPHIA
KYW-TV   *VHF*  3   73.4°   72.89mi     100.00kW   1,001ft (PHILADELPHIA, PA) CBS BROADCASTING INC.
WPVI-TV  *VHF*  6   73.4°   72.89mi      74.10kW   1,089ft (PHILADELPHIA, PA) ABC, INC.
WPSG     UHF 57   73.7°   72.92mi   3,470.00kW   1,178ft (PHILADELPHIA, PA) VIACOM STATIONS GROUP OF PHILADELPHIA INC.
WYBE     UHF 35   73.6°   73.03mi   1,000.00kW   1,125ft (PHILADELPHIA, PA) INDEPENDENCE PUBLIC MEDIA OF PHILADELPHIA, INC.
WUVP     UHF 65   73.6°   73.03mi   4,070.00kW   1,299ft (VINELAND, NJ) UNIVISION PHILADELPHIA LLC
WCAU     *VHF* 10   73.5°   73.04mi     191.00kW   1,161ft (PHILADELPHIA, PA) NBC TELEMUNDO LICENSE CO.
WDPB     UHF 64  156.7°   74.68mi     186.00kW     640ft (SEAFORD, DE) WHYY, INC.
WDPB     UHF 64  156.7°   74.68mi      48.70kW     502ft (SEAFORD, DE) WHYY, INC.
WMDT     UHF 47  164.9°   80.13mi   2,190.00kW     997ft (SALISBURY, MD) DELMARVA BROADCAST SERVICE GENERAL PARTNERSHIP

Data compiled from FCC database on 12/21/2004.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by DennyH_
> *Easy, quick question: Are standoffs a necessity. I didnt use any when I set up my 3020 today. Just used tie raps to attach the cable to the pole. I am getting NO digital channels. D*tv installed a puny batwing previously, and it gets 3 digital channels. When I installed the 3020 I fully expected much better reception. This standoff thing is the only thing I can think of that could be wrong with the setup, but I dont want to get back out in the COOOOLD weather if its not a problem.
> 
> Thanks, and MERRY CHRISTMAS!!
> 
> dj*



I don't think standoffs would have anything to do with reception problems; do you get any signs of a signal -- any signal strength measurements at all?


What receiver are you using? Where are you and how far from the stations are you?


Did you aim the antenna correctly? (The UHF yagi part is the front and should be towards the stations).


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ericdwong_
> *Ahhh, much better. In any case, somehow I got lucky that the vast majority of stations I need to watch (both Baltimore and Washington) are all at the same angle! looks like 234.4 degrees is my magic number. But also, the Philadelphia stations that I can try to reel in from time to time are all along the same line, so now I can program the rotator's presets*



I finally got network affiliation info on the stations and that's now part of the report. I'll be cleaning it up some over the next few days, too.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by DennyH_
> *Easy, quick question: Are standoffs a necessity. I didnt use any when I set up my 3020 today. Just used tie raps to attach the cable to the pole. I am getting NO digital channels. D*tv installed a puny batwing previously, and it gets 3 digital channels. When I installed the 3020 I fully expected much better reception. This standoff thing is the only thing I can think of that could be wrong with the setup, but I dont want to get back out in the COOOOLD weather if its not a problem.
> 
> Thanks, and MERRY CHRISTMAS!!
> 
> dj*



Standoffs are only necessary with twinlead. With coax it shouldn't matter.


----------



## greywolf

Standoffs are not necessary for 75 Ohm coax. They can be important for 300 Ohm twinlead.


----------



## DennyH




> Quote:
> I don't think standoffs would have anything to do with reception problems; do you get any signs of a signal -- any signal strength measurements at all?





> Quote:
> What receiver are you using? Where are you and how far from the stations are you?





> Quote:
> Did you aim the antenna correctly? (The UHF yagi part is the front and should be towards the stations).



The receiver is the RCA DTC210. We are about 30-35 miles away from the Towers: 36608 with large oak trees over head.

The antenna is aimed correctly according to the ChannelMaster instructions.

Sorry for this question, but how do I go about testing signal strength? I know how to get signal strength for the satellites, but how for OTA? When I do the station search, I get "0" digital stations shown.

BTW, I am using coax.

Thanks,

DJ


----------



## DaveT

Eric,


Here are a few suggestions. Your antennas are too close to each other. If you separated them they would work better.


I do not see any preamplifiers. A preamplifier boosts the signal near the antenna where the quality is the best and befor it will be degraded by signal loss in the coaxial cable.


Try using a smaller UHF antenna that is very directional such as the Channel Master 4221 or the 4228. Try different locations on the roof for signal quality. Different locations on the roof will have different signal qualities and levels. Also try different heights.


Good luck,


Dave


----------



## gkman1

I'm just starting receiving the HD channels with my Dish receiver.......What equipment would I need to get my locals in HD using an antenna.........would I need more equipment than just the antenna??


Thanks,


MIke


----------



## gkman1

IS it possible to get HD programming with an indoor antenna...hope this isn't a dumb question??


----------



## avguygeorge

No,not a dumb question. If you have good line of sight to the transformer---say 25/35 miles. (means no tall buildings / or mountians)---then it is quite possible. You can always go to Radio Shack and buy whatever they sug. and get your money back if it don't work.--Save all the 'came/with' packaging stuff.


----------



## CPanther95




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gkman1_
> *IS it possible to get HD programming with an indoor antenna...hope this isn't a dumb question??*



I picked up two towers both 19-22 miles away with about an 80 degree spread between them with a cheap RS Double-bowtie antenna. (and didn't have to move it to pick up both towers)


FYI, keep all your antenna questions in this thread (don't start a new thread) or if you want area specific info, check the THREAD INDEX link in my signature to find your local thread.


----------



## blackngold19




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gkman1_
> *IS it possible to get HD programming with an indoor antenna...hope this isn't a dumb question??*



The Zenith Silver Sensor has decent gain and is probably your best bet for an indoor antenna. You can pick it up at Sears for around $30.00. It is very directional, so make sure you have it pointed at your towers. If it doesn't work you can always take it back to Sears. Good Luck!!


----------



## ElVee

Newbie here. I'm in Jersey City, NJ, about 3 miles from Ground Zero, and probably about 5 miles from the ESB. I live in a four story Brownstone, about 50' tall. I want to mount an antenna on the chiminey. From my rooftop, I used to have a direct line of sight to the WTC antenna. I may even have a direct line of sight to the ESB (don't remember).


A few questions.


1 - Can anyone recommend a good multi purpose antenna (HDTV, VHF, UHF, FM)?


2 - Is there such a thing as overkill? Because of my proximity to NYC, can I have 'too much' antenna?


3 - I'm also thinking of using an antenna rotator. Can anyone recommend a good one?


Thanks in advance.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ElVee_
> *1 - Can anyone recommend a good multi purpose antenna (HDTV, VHF, UHF, FM)?
> 
> 
> 2 - Is there such a thing as overkill? Because of my proximity to NYC, can I have 'too much' antenna?
> 
> 
> 3 - I'm also thinking of using an antenna rotator. Can anyone recommend a good one?
> *



1- Any antenna from Winegard or Channel Master that looks like a "normal" antenna should work great. Avoid ones that are circular, "bat-wing" shaped, or super-small.


2- For all practical purposes, no. A larger antenna will be more directional, which may mean that your aim needs to be more precise. But the only way to overdrive the signal is to use an amplifier, which at your distance is not recommended.


3- Channel Master 9521A. Remote-controlled. Champ of its class (sub-$100.)


----------



## gkman1

I bought a Phillips 25db amplified antenna to see if I could actually get the locals in HD..I was able to get ABC and CBS.....the signal last night was about 70-75...this morning it was 81-91....the signal sometimes gets lost....what should I do next...should I check into an attic antenna...I really want to avoid roof antennas...especially if I'm very close to keeping the signal without having to do that. Can anyone recommend an attic atenna if this is the way I can go....I'd like to buy it at a local store...if not, anyone have any luck with antenna direct's DB2 or Db4??


Thanks for the help!!


MIke


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gkman1_
> *I bought a Phillips 25db amplified antenna to see if I could actually get the locals in HD..I was able to get ABC and CBS.....the signal last night was about 70-75...this morning it was 81-91....the signal sometimes gets lost....what should I do next...should I check into an attic antenna...I really want to avoid roof antennas...especially if I'm very close to keeping the signal without having to do that. Can anyone recommend an attic atenna if this is the way I can go....I'd like to buy it at a local store...if not, anyone have any luck with antenna direct's DB2 or Db4??*



The Phillips antenna isn't worth whatever you paid for it. Hopefully you can return it.


Try to find a Zenith Silver Sensor indoor antenna. It should dramatically improve your reception.


If that doesn't work, then you can look into buying a bowtie-style antenna for your attic. The DB2 and DB4 are excellent choices, though you could probably buy a Channel Master 3021 or 4228 for less (they perform at about 75-80% of the DB4 and DB8 levels, for better than half the price.)


Even so, attic antennas (like indoor antennas) are a crap-shoot. You might get great reception. You might get nothing. Too many factors go into it to know for sure what will or what won't work in your area. Most people who use indoor antennas report success with the Zenith Silver Sensor. Most who go with attics do well with the 4228 or DB8. Still, there are those who have tried "everything" and have finally concluded that the only way to get a reliable signal was to go "outdoors."


Good luck!


----------



## Suprfly2k

Any experience out there?


James


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Suprfly2k_
> *Any experience out there?
> 
> 
> James*



If the direction you need to aim at is through the side of the house, you might be OK, but if it's through the roof, the tin is going to block a considerable amount of your signal. If you're within 30 miles or so of your broadcast towers, look at the Winegard SquareShooter and install it outside; it's compact like a typical dish at 16"x16"x4".


----------



## dkomisar

I have a RS Double Bowtie indoor antenna. Is there a better indoor antenna? The reason I am using an indoor antenna is that my outdoor antenna loses channel 56 signal when it is fed though my Terk 5 by 8 powered multiswitch. If anyone has a solution to this problem please post a reply.


----------



## gkman1

Zenith silver sensor.......I just bought a Gemini from Amazon.com....the model number was Gemini ZHDTV1 HDTV/UHF Digital....I believe this is the same model number as the Zenith and looks the same...Does anyone know if this is the same??


----------



## greywolf

It is the same. You'll see them branded as Zenith, Gemini and Philips that I know of.


----------



## sheriffwoody

Searched forum for answer but must not have come up in awhile. I am switching to DishNet and I understand that I need an ant for HD locals. I have been to ant. choosing website but need local Vegas answers. I live in NW (Buffalo/Cheyenne). With the ant. that clips on the sat dish pick up the HD locals? Or will I need to get say a Terk 55? Suggestions??? Thanks in advance.

I will be using component hook up on a 50" pio Plasma. No DVI. Dishnet model #6000HD or the newer box.


----------



## HiDefSooner

If anyone is having a hard time pulling in VHF DTV channels you might want look how I beat my VHF DTV reception here in OKC.

http://www.hdtvok.com/mod.php?mod=us...u=13&page_id=6


----------



## yearoftherabbit

I live in an apartment in Lewisville, Texas and need an indoor antenna. What is the best one to try first? I am looking at the Zenith silver sensor mentioned on this site. I know that an outdoor antenna would be the better option but I have no room living in an apartment. I have also seen people on this forum reference a $50 radio shack amplified antenna that seems to work well. What would be my best option to start with? I checked on antennaweb and I about roughly a little less than 30 miles from the nearest transmitter (NBC, CBS, ABC, etc). I have a feeling I may be out of luck but thought I would ask. Thanks in advance!


----------



## gkman1

I bought the silver sensor last night...it pulled in a strong signal from ABC....couldn't get anything else....ABC is about 15 miles from me......the others are about 30...have also tried Phillips and RCA amplified antennas....same luck.....I kind of live in the valley ...I might try an attic antenna.....or just settle with what I have....try a few out...you can always return them.


----------



## jimc705

Assuming all the digital channels are UHF this is one of the best. Yep it's ugly but works.
http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...%5Fid=930-0998 


If that's not what you looking for or doesn't do the job then the your have to go outside with this.
http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm 


Lot more money but probably the next best thing to a full size outside antenna. Good Luck


----------



## yearoftherabbit




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *Assuming all the digital channels are UHF this is one of the best. Yep it's ugly but works.
> http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...%5Fid=930-0998
> 
> 
> If that's not what you looking for or doesn't do the job then the your have to go outside with this.
> http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm
> 
> 
> Lot more money but probably the next best thing to a full size outside antenna. Good Luck*




I think a few of the channels are VHF (ABC is the one I have noticed). I might try that radioshack one. Do I have to buy a separate antenna for VHF to try and pick up the ABC station? I know it's a dumb question but I am new at this







It seems that only WFAA ABC is the only station on my list that doesn't also have a UHF version available. All of the other big ones like NBC, CBS, PBS, etc. have them. That is very strange.


----------



## dpiroh

OK...probably a dumb question...

I live about 20 miles from NY & have an antenna in the attic pointing at Empire State, and receive NBC, CBS, ABC OTA HDTV.

About 180 degrees out is my local PBS HDTV, that I can receive if I rotate the antenna (killing the network feeds).

I have another antenna from my Mom's house...can I just connect the twin leads all together before they go into the coax without screwing up anything? Or do I need some sort of splitter/combiner?

Thank you!


----------



## mws6468




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by yearoftherabbit_
> *I think a few of the channels are VHF (ABC is the one I have noticed). I might try that radioshack one. Do I have to buy a separate antenna for VHF to try and pick up the ABC station? I know it's a dumb question but I am new at this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems that only WFAA ABC is the only station on my list that doesn't also have a UHF version available. All of the other big ones like NBC, CBS, PBS, etc. have them. That is very strange.*



I use the RS 15-1880 and have decent luck with UHF. I too live in an apt, but i face SW when the towers are NE of me, so if you face the towers you should be a LOT better off. I am working on a cut antenna for Ch 7 here in KC.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dpiroh_
> *OK...probably a dumb question...
> 
> I live about 20 miles from NY & have an antenna in the attic pointing at Empire State, and receive NBC, CBS, ABC OTA HDTV.
> 
> About 180 degrees out is my local PBS HDTV, that I can receive if I rotate the antenna (killing the network feeds).
> 
> I have another antenna from my Mom's house...can I just connect the twin leads all together before they go into the coax without screwing up anything? Or do I need some sort of splitter/combiner?
> 
> Thank you!*



Ideally to do such a thing you'd use devices which would notch out the frequencies you wanted to pick up from the second antenna from the output of the first antenna before you combined them; this is because each antenna is likely to be picking up something of the signal from the back which would probably interfere enough when mixing the two you'd have more problems.


Some antennas have a reasonable gain from the rear and sides; for example I can aim my Channel Master 4228 at Philadelphia (60 miles away) and still receive WCBS from NY (30 miles away) even though it's 120° off-axis from the direction the antenna is aimed (haven't tried that again to see if I can pick up any other NY channels since they've gone higher power than they were a year and a half ago).


A lot will depend on your antenna, and what stations may exist on the same frequencies off in each direction which may interfere with stations you want, and what power all those stations are transmitting with, and whether or not there's objects around which might generate some multipath.


In other words, you can always try; and there's things you can do to help it out (notch filters), but in the end, you can't be sure until you experiment.


----------



## dswallow

BTW, everyone...


It's really helpful in the kind of discussion that goes on in this thread if you'd edit your profile and include your city and state; even though you might mention it in a post where you first ask a question, that can become lost after a little back and forth discussion (moreso when other discussions occur inbetween) and things can get confusing.


----------



## dpiroh

Thank you Doug (from this Doug!)...who will also be spending the summer in Long Branch this year!


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dpiroh_
> *Thank you Doug (from this Doug!)...who will also be spending the summer in Long Branch this year!*



Oh, and to answer the actual question you had... you'd combine antennas using a splitter (which could be called a combiner; they work both ways). Notch filters would be installed just prior to each antenna going into a splitter/combiner to eliminate frequencies from each. And there's certain devices like the CHannel Master Jointenna, which combine all this into one package for some limited frequency ranges. To be able to make clean enough notches for adjacent frqeuncies can require some expensive filters, though, so as long as the stations aren't too close together with stations on the other antenna, it's not too costly; but if there were adjacent channels, you'd be spending as much as $100-$200 for some high quality filters.


All this stuff would be best done by a professional installer who had the equipment to try out first, rather than going and buying all these things to try. Unfortunately some stuff tends to be custom-made, so it's not all that likely even pro installers would have specialized notch filters at their disposal to try out.


----------



## jimc705

yearoftherabbit,

If you need VHF for just one channel build your own dipole with 300 ohm twin lead cut to the correct length for that channel. Very easy to do here is a link to do so.
http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html 


Then get a vhf/uhf combiner to join the 2 into one downlead. The dipole has about 2.5 db gain front and to the rear. It will also pick up other high band channels but will do best at the particular frequency it was made for. There is no back rejection so you can pick up from 2 different stations in opposite directions. You cab buy all the supplies at your local radio shack.


----------



## jimc705

diproh,

You can give it a shot but unless the signals are extremely strong I doubt it will work. I've tried before and ended up losing a few channels if not all. The cheapest and easy way is to install a dedicated antenna for PBS and then use an A/B switch to switch between them. This way you'll have no additonal loss of signal and will get all the stations you want. An A?B switch can be bought locally for less then $5. You'll need an additional coax run for the second antenna to your switch.


Exception if PBS is a VHF channel then you can just combine them with a VHF/UHF combiner/splitter.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dpiroh_
> *I have another antenna from my Mom's house...can I just connect the twin leads all together before they go into the coax without screwing up anything? Or do I need some sort of splitter/combiner?*



Get a ChannelMaster "Jointenna" designed for the PBS station in question. For about $10, you'll have a solution that's much cheaper than notch filters.


----------



## sf49ersnfl

I am only able to recieve cbs at about 25% from with a silver sensor. Any tips on how to improve silver sensors performance. I am about 45 miles away from the transmitter. Thanks in advance


----------



## blackngold19

At 45mi, you are really asking alot of that antenna. Can you have a small outside antenna?


----------



## chico123

hello everyone,


i am brand new to this but have been lurking for a few days.

anyway, i just hooked up a silver sensor to my new sony built-in hd set, tuned it in to channel 10.1 and everything has been going strong. i live in davis (about 25 miles from the towers).


the problem comes when i go to any other hd channel. 3.1, 13.2, 40.1, etc.

none of them will keep a consistent signal for more than 30 seconds or so. the signal jumps from 40 to 75 or 80, back down to 40 and dropping out.


i have experimented with moving the silver sensor around but nothing is helping yet. plus it has been raining on and off and looks like it will continue for the next few days.


i obviously will keep trying but in the meantime...any ideas? hints? tips? seems very strange that one channel would come in crystal clear but can't keep a signal going on any other frequency.


thanks in advance


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by chico123_
> *i live in davis (about 25 miles from the towers).
> 
> 
> i obviously will keep trying but in the meantime...any ideas? hints? tips? seems very strange that one channel would come in crystal clear but can't keep a signal going on any other frequency.
> *



Well, it's hard to help you since I can't do any investigation into the power or location of the transmitters for the stations you returned. Why?


From Google: Results 1 - 10 of about 44,900,000 for Davis


A state would be a big boost in figuring out what stations you should be receiving.


----------



## jimc705

You are experencing multipath. Sorry but the silver sensor probably will never work in this case. You'll need a good directional antenna to get rid of the multipath. The signal is bouncing and coming into the antenna in several different directions at different times cancelling each other. This is why the signal level is going up and down. The channel 10.1 you are getting is either a straight shot from the transmitter to you , or is close enough that the main signal is very strong and overides the multipath signals.


As Serenger says know way to help you without more info about your location. Zip code will do. Add in any other info like mountains in east within 1/4 mile or tall building next door between you and transmitters. Then someone will be able to assist you better. Go to antennaweb.org and put in your address to see what directions the transmitters are.


----------



## upNdown

I'm just south of Boston and all the channels I'm after are 16-17 miles away (and all within 2 degrees).


* yellow - uhf WSBK-DT 38.1 UPN BOSTON MA 309° 17.0 39

* yellow - uhf WMFP-DT 18 SAH LAWRENCE MA FCC Ext 309° 16.3 18

* yellow - uhf WFXT-DT 25.1 FOX BOSTON MA 309° 16.0 31

* yellow - uhf WGBH-DT 2.1 PBS BOSTON MA 309° 17.0 19

* yellow - uhf WGBX-DT 44.1 PBS BOSTON MA 309° 17.0 43

* yellow - uhf WBZ-DT 4.1 CBS BOSTON MA 309° 17.0 30

* yellow - uhf WCVB-DT 5.1 ABC BOSTON MA 309° 17.0 20

* yellow - uhf WHDH-DT 7.1 NBC BOSTON MA 311° 16.1 42



I guess I'm going to order a DB4 from Antennas direct. My only question is, is this 'medium range' antenna too much for me? Am I likely to experience this 'multi-path' I read so much about? I just don't feel safe getting a short range antenna at this distance. It will be mounted on a mast on the chimney atop the 2nd floor of my home (where my old falling abpart 1970's antenna currently resides).


Thanks for your feedback.


----------



## blackngold19




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by upNdown_
> *I'm just south of Boston and all the channels I'm after are 16-17 miles away (and all within 2 degrees).
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf WSBK-DT 38.1 UPN BOSTON MA 309° 17.0 39
> 
> * yellow - uhf WMFP-DT 18 SAH LAWRENCE MA FCC Ext 309° 16.3 18
> 
> * yellow - uhf WFXT-DT 25.1 FOX BOSTON MA 309° 16.0 31
> 
> * yellow - uhf WGBH-DT 2.1 PBS BOSTON MA 309° 17.0 19
> 
> * yellow - uhf WGBX-DT 44.1 PBS BOSTON MA 309° 17.0 43
> 
> * yellow - uhf WBZ-DT 4.1 CBS BOSTON MA 309° 17.0 30
> 
> * yellow - uhf WCVB-DT 5.1 ABC BOSTON MA 309° 17.0 20
> 
> * yellow - uhf WHDH-DT 7.1 NBC BOSTON MA 311° 16.1 42
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I'm going to order a DB4 from Antennas direct. My only question is, is this 'medium range' antenna too much for me? Am I likely to experience this 'multi-path' I read so much about? I just don't feel safe getting a short range antenna at this distance. It will be mounted on a mast on the chimney atop the 2nd floor of my home (where my old falling abpart 1970's antenna currently resides).
> 
> 
> Thanks for your feedback.*



The DB4 should be more than enough from that distance. I have it at 36 miles , and it's the best antenna for the price and size..only 29" x 16".


----------



## upNdown




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by blackngold19_
> *The DB4 should be more than enough from that distance. I have it at 36 miles , and it's the best antenna for the price and size..only 29" x 16".*



Right. My question is, will it be TOO MUCH antenna? Isn't that how you get multi-path problems?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by upNdown_
> *Right. My question is, will it be TOO MUCH antenna? Isn't that how you get multi-path problems?*



No. Multipath problems actually come from having too little antenna.


The higher the gain of an antenna, the more directional it is. The more directional the antenna, the less likely it is to pick up bounced signals on the side lobes. The less side lobe signals it picks up, the less likely a multipath signal will be strong enough to interfere with reception.


Attenuators work in multipath environments not because they reduce the capabilities of the antenna, but because they reduce the strength of all signals reaching your receiver. When you listen to a complicated piece of music, you can turn the volume down low enough so you can only hear the primary instruments. When you turn it up, even the faint instruments become audible. Essentially, an attenuator turns down the volume, hopefully leaving the one crisp, clear signal you actually want while "muting" the quieter reflected signals.


There is no such thing as too much antenna.


There is, however, such a thing as too much amplification. Preamplifiers (and amplifiers, an inferior version of the preamp because it seeks to amplify the signal only after it has suffered transmission line loss) work in reverse of an attenuator. They turn the volume up. Turn up the volume enough and even the weakest reflection becomes strong enough to confuse the receiver. However, when background "hiss" is almost equal to the strength of the received signal, there is no alternative - more antenna or more amplification is necessary to get a digital lock.


----------



## blackngold19




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by upNdown_
> *Right. My question is, will it be TOO MUCH antenna? Isn't that how you get multi-path problems?*



The DB4 is the smallest you could possibly go with outside, aside from a SS which costs more and has less gain. The DB4 is a very good antenna to start with. Let me know how it works out..


----------



## sf49ersnfl

At 45mi, you are really asking alot of that antenna. Can you have a small outside antenna?




No I cannot have an outdoor so how can i improve my silver sensor if any way to get a higher signal.


----------



## tbb1226




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sf49ersnfl_
> *At 45mi, you are really asking alot of that antenna. Can you have a small outside antenna?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No I cannot have an outdoor so how can i improve my silver sensor if any way to get a higher signal.*



You can't.


However, you _can_ improve your attitude when asking for help.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sf49ersnfl_
> *At 45mi, you are really asking alot of that antenna. Can you have a small outside antenna?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No I cannot have an outdoor so how can i improve my silver sensor if any way to get a higher signal.*



Outdoor is best. Next best would be a large antenna such as the 4228 in your attic. Next would be a medium outdoor antenna but used indoors and pointed out a window in the direction of the tower (DB4, 4221). After that, it'd be to try moving around with the silver sensor in the room or even move it to a higher point in the house if possible.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by tbb1226_
> *You can't.
> 
> 
> However, you can improve your attitude when asking for help.*



First of all, I don't think his attitude was a problem. There are a lot of newbies this time of year (post-Christmas), and it's not wrong for them to ask questions. His answer was short, but not rude. It did not, for example say, "I can't put it outside, you *****. Why don't you stick your antenna where the *******************?"


Secondly, is sf49ersnfl sure he can't put up an outside antenna? Read: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html for an explanation of what rules and restrictions on outdoor antennas are applicable.


Third, a preamplifier might help, though it is doubtful. sf49ersnfl should check for snow on analog UHF stations and if he has a lot, an amplifier is a good idea. If, instead, he has ghosting, he shouldn't bother with an amplifier. If there's some ghosting, a variable attenuator from Radio Shack could greatly improve reception.


Finally, placement is a key component of reception quality. The Silver Sensor should be placed as high in the house as possible, as near to the side of the house where the signals are coming from. Some experimentation might be necessary.


----------



## mws6468

Need help with a VHF channel... I just bought a cut channel for channel 7 ABC-DT in KC but cannot get a signal, i can get better with just a pair of rabit ears, still no lock .. only about 50%. Any ideas??? Do i need to amplify it signal?


* red - vhf KMBC-DT 9.1 ABC KANSAS CITY MO 61° 15.7 7


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mws6468_
> *Need help with a VHF channel... I just bought a cut channel for channel 7 ABC-DT in KC but cannot get a signal, i can get better with just a pair of rabit ears, still no lock .. only about 50%. Any ideas??? Do i need to amplify it signal?
> 
> 
> * red - vhf KMBC-DT 9.1 ABC KANSAS CITY MO 61° 15.7 7*



Give us your zip so we can assist. Also make of antenna, height, 5element or 10 elemant any tall structures between you and transmitters etc. Off hand I recheck all connection a be sure antenna is pointed properly.


----------



## Bill Ball

I live in Alamo, CA (SF Bay area suburb) surrounded by a variety of hills about 25 miles inland (as the crow flies) from from SF. Is there any hope of getting OTA HDTV reception here? If so, what equipment? Anybody advocate multiple antennas for more gain? I saw some information recommending combining several inexspensive Radio Shack 15-2160 antennas.


Anyway, I certainly have no line of sight to anything from where I am. Should I even try?


FWIW, zipcode is 94507, street is Janis Court. Antennaweb says I just need a redzone antenna for digital.


Thanks,


Bill


----------



## mws6468




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *Give us your zip so we can assist. Also make of antenna, height, 5element or 10 elemant any tall structures between you and transmitters etc. Off hand I recheck all connection a be sure antenna is pointed properly.*



ZIP 66219


It is a 5 element Delhi 5Y7S .. but i am using it inside... live in apt, no attic or roof avaliable. Second story or three, but facing SW instead of needed NE. I thought it would do better than rabbit ears.


I have a RS Blaun, then about 25' or RG6QS going to a CM combiner.


----------



## Inundated

You might find more help in the OTA thread for the Bay Area:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=369015 


My uneducated guess is that you could be able to get the big network signals out of SF. But over in Alamo, you might have a clearer shot at the Sacramento market signals over in Walnut Grove. They're farther away, but most of them are full-power and you may have better luck with the terrain. Good luck!


----------



## Bill Ball

Thanks I will post over on SF BA OTA. Mount Diablo is between me and Sacramento. Do you need line of sight for digital or do signals bounce and get around obstacles?


----------



## dervari

This will probably get lost among everything else here, but here goes....


I live only 10 miles from two clusters of broadcast antennas in the Atlanta area. It seems that I can pick up everything EXCEPT WSB-DT. I have to rotate my SS2000 about 15 degrees west to pick it up, which screws up my WXIA. The antenna is pointed at 220 which should pick up everything, but to get WSB reliably it has to be around 235-240. Is is possible to put a second antenna up which is oriented in the proper direction for WSB-DT? If so, would it hurt the other channels to combine the two signals?


Any help is appreciated.


----------



## tecman51

I need help choosing an antenna. I live in the Central Coast, CA and antennaweb.org says I should get at least eight OTA channels using a "violet" antenna. I am mostly interested in the major networks. Dishnetwork said they would install the antenna at no charge (Dish subscriber using a 921 receiver) but local installers say, "Don't waste your time, you won't get anything." Some folks on other forums suggested checking out this forum and trying it anyway.


So, my question, what antenna/preamps/amps will give me the best chance of getting HD reception? Zip code 93446. Rural area, lots of rolling hills but no obstructions.


----------



## gkman1

tecman51....Dish Network said they would install an OTA for no charge...I find this hard to believe...but hey, if that's what they told you...who did you talk to..customer service??


----------



## gkman1

I just called Dish Network and they said that theu do not install OTA antennas anymore..if they are for you do it now!


----------



## cliftonite

I am looking for an outdoor antenna for my house in zipcode 07055. Would the Winegard HD9095P be sufficent? I think that is the most powerful one that Winegard sells. What other equipment do I need to buy to get optimal signal? Thanks alot


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mws6468_
> *It is a 5 element Delhi 5Y7S .. but i am using it inside... live in apt, no attic or roof avaliable. Second story or three, but facing SW instead of needed NE. I thought it would do better than rabbit ears.
> *



Try it direct to the tuner, for one thing. Make sure it's not anything else in your system that's causing the problem.


Try aiming the antenna in "non-intuitive" directions. Your rabbit ears are probably picking up a bounce from somewhere.


The station you're after is at full power, and they're blasting in your direction, so you should be able to get them under 'normal' conditions. Your conditions aren't normal, though, so that doesn't help too much. Try sticking it out a window (your apartment does have one of those, right?) and see if it makes a difference. Sometimes, the building has just too much reflective material to let the signal through.


Good luck!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dervari_
> *Is is possible to put a second antenna up which is oriented in the proper direction for WSB-DT? If so, would it hurt the other channels to combine the two signals?
> *



It's possible. Use a Channel Master Jointenna with the channel number for WSB-DT. It will have one input for WSB and another for "everything else." Connect them together and you're good to go.


Combining antennas pointed in different directions using a standard splitter/combiner almost never works.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by tecman51_
> *Dishnetwork said they would install the antenna at no charge (Dish subscriber using a 921 receiver) but local installers say, "Don't waste your time, you won't get anything." Some folks on other forums suggested checking out this forum and trying it anyway.
> *



You probably wouldn't get anything with the antenna Dish would give you for free.


I'm one of those people who was told, "Don't waste your time, you won't get anything." I didn't listen. They were (sorta) right. And sorta wrong. You can read my story here:
http://www.geocities.com/figbert/ant...irect91xg.html 


Look around. If you can't find any antennas in your area, then you're probably out of luck. But if people have antennas up, that's usually a good sign that the signals *are* there.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cliftonite_
> *I am looking for an outdoor antenna for my house in zipcode 07055. Would the Winegard HD9095P be sufficent? I think that is the most powerful one that Winegard sells. What other equipment do I need to buy to get optimal signal? Thanks alot*



Golly. You're 10 miles from NYC. Yes, the 9095 is plenty. Point it in the right direction and use RG-6 cabling direct to your tuner (no diplexers, splitters, etc) and you've got a great chance of a perfect signal. You could probably get away with about 1/2 the antenna, but the 9095 isn't a bad choice.


----------



## tecman51

sregener:

You probably wouldn't get anything with the antenna Dish would give you for free.


* Because of a mix up when I signed up for the HD package, Dish agreed to do the installation only (I will be providing the antenna/amps, etc.)


I'm one of those people who was told, "Don't waste your time, you won't get anything." I didn't listen. They were (sorta) right. And sorta wrong. You can read my story here:


* Good job! I enjoyed your story. Very interesting and informative.


Look around. If you can't find any antennas in your area, then you're probably out of luck. But if people have antennas up, that's usually a good sign that the signals *are* there.


* I live in a rural area so spotting "working" antennas in the area is a real chore. I still have the antenna on the roof installed by the previous owner years ago. I think he got one channel, NBC. The old, BIG satellite dish is still on the property too. Don't know what to do with it.


----------



## goblue2005

I just picked up the Toshiba 46 h84 and I have Direct TV. I just bought the samsung SIR ts 630 hd tuner and I need a good hd antenna. I checked web TV org and I am only 14 to 21 miles from these HD stations

Yellow

wwj-dt 62.1

wtvs-dt 43.1

wxyz-dt 41.1

wdwb-dt 21.1

wjbk-dt 2.1

wdiv-dt 4.1


Red

Wkbd-dt 50.1


I live in St. Clair Shores and I currently have an old mast antenna on my roof. I would like to mount something low profile in its place. I work at Best Buy and get a good deal on the Terk antennas, but many customers have complained about their reception. Their is also a Samsung TV 5.2 we carry but it is indoor. I would appreciate any feedback on HD antennas that work in my area


----------



## thedataman

Does anyone have any experience with this fairly new OTA antenna? I am currently using a Channel Master 4228 and until recently had it mounted inside my garage rafters and was getting about a 80 - 90 % signal strength about 40 miles away from the towers in Boston. My issue is that I have just remodelled my garage and have to move the Antenna. My wife is against mounting the 4228 on the roof or outside due to asthetics, so I read up on this new antenna.


Any feedback would be appreciated.


Thanks

Chris


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by thedataman_
> *Does anyone have any experience with this fairly new OTA antenna? I am currently using a Channel Master 4228 and until recently had it mounted inside my garage rafters and was getting about a 80 - 90 % signal strength about 40 miles away from the towers in Boston. My issue is that I have just remodelled my garage and have to move the Antenna. My wife is against mounting the 4228 on the roof or outside due to asthetics, so I read up on this new antenna.
> 
> 
> Any feedback would be appreciated.
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Chris*



At 40 miles you'll be pushing it with the squareshooter. You may not get all the stations. If you decide to give it a try get the 1000 without the amp for you may need a larger amp then what comes with the 2000. You may be able to talk her into the 4221 which is half the size of the 4228 and will outperform the sqare shooter. You will loose a few DB gain but it's still a good choice. The square shooter will not be as effective against multipath if you have that problem also. I'd tried to find a way to keep the 4228 if I were you. Maybe mount on backside of garage where it's not so noticeable. Good Luck!


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by goblue2005_
> *I just picked up the Toshiba 46 h84 and I have Direct TV. I just bought the samsung SIR ts 630 hd tuner and I need a good hd antenna. I checked web TV org and I am only 14 to 21 miles from these HD stations
> 
> Yellow
> 
> wwj-dt 62.1
> 
> wtvs-dt 43.1
> 
> wxyz-dt 41.1
> 
> wdwb-dt 21.1
> 
> wjbk-dt 2.1
> 
> wdiv-dt 4.1
> 
> 
> Red
> 
> Wkbd-dt 50.1
> 
> 
> I live in St. Clair Shores and I currently have an old mast antenna on my roof. I would like to mount something low profile in its place. I work at Best Buy and get a good deal on the Terk antennas, but many customers have complained about their reception. Their is also a Samsung TV 5.2 we carry but it is indoor. I would appreciate any feedback on HD antennas that work in my area*



Stay away from Terk any just about any other antenna will do. Hre are some of the best at your distance(assuming your digitals are UHF).


Channel Master 4221

Winegard PR 4440 or (squareshooter should work at your distance but not as good as the others here.)

Antennas Direct DB4 or XG42

Good Luck
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/ 
http://www.antennasdirect.com/MediumRangeAntennas.htm 
http://www.solidsignal.com/antennas/ 
http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm 
http://search.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bi...query=antennas 


If you need VHF also then look around at these sights. Most UHF's will pick up some VHF high band. Seperates are better but your close enough a good combo should work.


----------



## pdroth

I would appreciate some advice from anyone as to what would be a good INDOOR antenna that will pick up HDTV. I know location is a serious variable so here is my situation:


1.6 miles from Empire State Bldg.

I live on 17th floor of high-rise in Queens, which has direct line-of-sight to the tower.

I'm 2nd apartment in from the front, approximately 50 ft.

Building is concrete/steel/brick construction.


I don't have access to the rooftop antenna unfortuneately so an indoor is my only option at this point. My television is HD-ready (Sony 34XBR960).


Thanks!


----------



## CHAS ZOSS

I would try a Terk tv5 or Silver sensor.


----------



## natlib

I'm sure this has been covered somewhere, but I was going to purchase a Channel Master 4228 to pick up the three DTV stations in San Angelo, TX but I just discovered that the CBS station broadcasting in vhf instead of uhf. Does this mean the 4228 will not pick it up?? Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by natlib_
> *I'm sure this has been covered somewhere, but I was going to purchase a Channel Master 4228 to pick up the three DTV stations in San Angelo, TX but I just discovered that the CBS station broadcasting in vhf instead of uhf. Does this mean the 4228 will not pick it up?? Any help would be appreciated.*



The 4228 has decent gain on high band vhf (7-13), performing best on the upper part of that range but it *is* a uhf antenna by design. If your vhf is 10 or higher and you're pretty close, say


----------



## DennyH

How sensitive is an outdoor antenna to direction? I have a 3020 that is having difficulty picking up ANY HD channels. The difference between 95 degrees and 103 degrees is miniscule on the compass, so how important is being "perfectly" aligned to a tower?

Another question. Is there any chance that I have a bad balun? As stated before, I have a batwing that is picking up decently, but the 3020 isnt picking up anything. I have tried "everything" to make this thing work, but it just wont.

BTW, I am at 36608 and between 18 and 38 miles from the towers.

Thanks,

DJ


----------



## zark




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by goblue2005_
> *
> 
> 
> I live in St. Clair Shores and I currently have an old mast antenna on my roof. I would like to mount something low profile in its place. I work at Best Buy and get a good deal on the Terk antennas, but many customers have complained about their reception. Their is also a Samsung TV 5.2 we carry but it is indoor. I would appreciate any feedback on HD antennas that work in my area*



I have an SS-1000 with a CM7777 and get great reception in Rochester Hills for every digital channel with ONE exception and that's ch44 - CBS 62. I can't get a signal worth anything with the Square Shooter no matter where I point it. I'm assuming it's multipath and am open to ANY AND ALL suggestion on how to diagnose/remedy this (with keeping the Square Shooter...)

The analogs come in quite nice as well, with the exception of CH2, BTW


Thanks!


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by DennyH_
> *How sensitive is an outdoor antenna to direction? I have a 3020 that is having difficulty picking up ANY HD channels. The difference between 95 degrees and 103 degrees is miniscule on the compass, so how important is being "perfectly" aligned to a tower?
> 
> Another question. Is there any chance that I have a bad balun? As stated before, I have a batwing that is picking up decently, but the 3020 isnt picking up anything. I have tried "everything" to make this thing work, but it just wont.
> 
> BTW, I am at 36608 and between 18 and 38 miles from the towers.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> DJ*



What else are you using? Preamp? How long is the cable run?

Not to offend you, but be sure you're pointing the antenna the right way. The 3020 is "swept forward" and the uhf section with the v-shaped reflector is in the front.


It's easy to switch out the balun but I doubt it's bad. RS has a good one.

Aiming is always important. However, what you are describing is not likely attributable to being only a few degrees off.


----------



## Jackstraw8881

I would like to paint my Channel Master 8 bay antenna as well as rotor black so as to blend in with the landscape a little better. Does this hurt the reception quality?


----------



## DennyH




> Quote:
> What else are you using? Preamp? How long is the cable run?



I have tried it with and without the preamp. The cable run is currently about 30 ft. The cable run on the batwing is over 100 ft.

I am aiming it the way that the instructions say to do so, but in desperation I've also aimed it the other way (just to be sure). Neither worked







.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jackstraw8881_
> *I would like to paint my Channel Master 8 bay antenna as well as rotor black so as to blend in with the landscape a little better. Does this hurt the reception quality?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



I'd avoid using a paint with any metal content; other than that... it shouldn't matter.


----------



## gawngulfing

 followjoshonline.com/Albums/home_theater/images/antenna.jpg 


sorry this is my first post so I can't put a fully qualified web address to display the image. You have to cut and paste it into another window.


This is my antenna. I think it is of the 80-120 in variety. I am trying to get reception in the zipcode 54494. antennaweb.org says that I should have 3 HD channels within 40 miles.


The antenna was on the house when we bought it. So I do not know the brand, nor the cabling grade. The antenna rotor does work fine and I can turn this baby 360 degrees and my signal strength stays at zero.


I do know that the cable running from the antenna to the basement is about a 50' run. Then I have a barrel connector and a 30' run to the HD STB. SIR-150.


Where would you start? Again I don't know the antenna brand (maybe you recognise it?) nor the cabling grade (does this matter largely?).


----------



## dswallow

I'd check the continuity on the cable all the way through first.


A multimeter would help a lot. First disconnect it from the antenna, and disconnect it from the receiver. Then make sure the center conductor and shield are not shorted together. Now up at the antenna, connect the center conductor and shield so they are shorted together, and from the other wnd of the cable confirm that there's copntinuity between the shield and center conductor.


If that all tests out OK, you might look at the balun that's on the antenna to make sure it's good and well connected (no corrosion).


If there's a preamp up there, and it's not getting power, that's a likely spot for a problem, too. Disconnect/bypass it and see what happens.


----------



## mws6468




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *Try it direct to the tuner, for one thing. Make sure it's not anything else in your system that's causing the problem.
> 
> 
> Try aiming the antenna in "non-intuitive" directions. Your rabbit ears are probably picking up a bounce from somewhere.
> 
> 
> The station you're after is at full power, and they're blasting in your direction, so you should be able to get them under 'normal' conditions. Your conditions aren't normal, though, so that doesn't help too much. Try sticking it out a window (your apartment does have one of those, right?) and see if it makes a difference. Sometimes, the building has just too much reflective material to let the signal through.
> 
> 
> Good luck!*



Thanks for the advise... with a lot of moving the antenna around the living room it finally started working. Got all the ABC games last weekend in HD. I think it was just luck finding a place it worked. I will try to get some pics in my profile soon.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gawngulfing_
> *Where would you start? Again I don't know the antenna brand (maybe you recognise it?) nor the cabling grade (does this matter largely?).*



I'd check for analog reception first. You should see something on channels 7 and 9. If you don't, or if the picture is *very* bad, you likely don't have a connection to the outlet. This happens often when people have cable. They disconnect the antenna, and then it's up to you to figure out how to get the signal to your television.


RG-59 is more lossy than RG-6, especially on higher channels. But until you've tested it with it properly hooked up, it's hard to say if it will make much of a difference.


----------



## natlib

Thanks for your help. Here is the info on the 3 dtv stations here:

yellow - uhf KIDY-DT 10.1 FOX SAN ANGELO TX 339° 14.9 miles away ltgreen - uhf KSAN-DT 16.1 NBC SAN ANGELO TX 357° 16.8 miles away

violet - vhf KLST-DT 8.1 CBS SAN ANGELO TX 3° 7.8 miles away


I am real close to the cbs station that is vhf as you can see. What do you think?

Will the CM 4228 pick up the CBS station even though its vhf????


----------



## rich.ssss

Here is my deal: I'm located in the Greenbrier section of Chesapeake, VA. Dish Network 811 receiver. OTA locals towers at:

WVBT 296 degrees

WVEC 297

WPXV 293

WTKR 293

WTVZ 293

WHRO 293

WGNT 296

WAVY 296

All towers within 16 miles. I'm using a Channel Master 4221 on roof top. 5 ft. mast on gable puts it just about even with ridgeline. Less than 60 ft RG6 cable. There are a few tall trees across the street but it's not what I would call dense by any means. I seem to be getting good signal strength to all stations but can't find the one orientation to get all the channels at once, and channels that lock in one day are gone the next.


After hours of fine tuning Last weekend I finally locked into all of the locals on Sunday morning ( by lowering the mast below the roof ridgeline). However by Sunday evening I lost two or three and by Monday morning I lost about half of them. I tried a 6db attenuator with no result. I have noticed the signal strength meter fluctuating wildly so I was convinced it was a multipath problem. Last night I bought a Zenith Silver Sensor indoor antenna and was able to receive all the locals with minor movement of the antenna (with and without the attenuator). I still haven't found the magic spot for the Silver Sensor to acquire all signals but can get them all with minor adjustments. The problem I have is the family members don't seem to appreciate the piece of modern art (antenna) on the living room shelf so I would still like to make a roof top antenna my final solution. Do I have any hope of eliminating the multipath with the CM 4221? The folks at Domes AV said they had multipath problems when they carried the CM 4221 and now exclusively use the CM 4228. Do you all think its worth a try ? I have also read many comments on the web that the Dish 811 is very sensitive to multiparth so perhaps I'm beating a dead horse? Thanks for your insight.


----------



## gawngulfing




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *I'd check for analog reception first. You should see something on channels 7 and 9. If you don't, or if the picture is *very* bad, you likely don't have a connection to the outlet. This happens often when people have cable. They disconnect the antenna, and then it's up to you to figure out how to get the signal to your television.
> *



I have verified that the cable does infact go from the antenna, across the rafters of my garage, down the wall of my garage, thorugh the foundation cap and then to my TV.


One thing I didn't point out, after thought, is the coax cable runs through an opening that also contains 220 electrical wiring, cat 5, another coax, and telephone wire. Could any of these wires be causing interference and cancelling out the signal?


I'm afraid that it is something at the antenna on the roof. I can't go up there right now because we received .5 inch of ice 3 days ago and it still hasn't melted and doesn't look like it will any time soon, highs in the low 20's.


The analog signal is crap too, I did try hooking it right up to a TV and tunning in 7 and 9, nothing at all rotating the antenna 360 degrees and point it just a couple degrees east of north.


Thanks for everyones input or future suggestions.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gawngulfing_
> *I'm afraid that it is something at the antenna on the roof. I can't go up there right now because we received .5 inch of ice 3 days ago and it still hasn't melted and doesn't look like it will any time soon, highs in the low 20's.
> *



I've got the same ice everywhere. Not fun to get off the sidewalks, is it?


It probably is something with the antenna itself, if you're sure the connection is direct. The power line near the coax could create a bit of static on VHF, but not enough to wipe out the signal. Coax is shielded, though not perfectly.


The thing to do, before you go up there (if you're trying to save trips up to the antenna) is to go to Radio Shack and buy a $2 balun (balanced/unbalanced connector.) The first thing I'd do is try replacing that. I'd also check all the connectors for rust, and consider buying new coax for the outdoor portion of your run while you're at it.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by DennyH_
> *I have tried it with and without the preamp. The cable run is currently about 30 ft. The cable run on the batwing is over 100 ft.
> 
> I am aiming it the way that the instructions say to do so, but in desperation I've also aimed it the other way (just to be sure). Neither worked
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .*



Look at your analog reception. If you have alot of ghosting that indicates multipath. Herringbone suggest FM interference. If it's just snowy than you need more gain. If your analog reception is good you have to suspect your digital tuner may be at fault or all your digitals are at very low power.


An FM trap is cheap and is worth a try. RS sells one as does Winegard.


Another cheap thing to try is a variable attenuator (available at RS). This can sometimes help if the problem is multipath.


You can also try different heights with the 3020. Higher is usually better but not always. Sometimes it also helps to tilt the antenna up about 5-10 degrees if you can. Is the "batwing" outside? What exactly is this "batwing"? It might give you some useful info if you put the 3020 in the exact location as the "batwing" so you have a valid comparision.


More info, more info, I need more info..... What preamp have you tried? Most likely with only 30 ft. of cable run you don't need one. Do you have any obstruction to line-of-sight between you and the towers? This will often cause multipath.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by natlib_
> *Thanks for your help. Here is the info on the 3 dtv stations here:
> 
> yellow - uhf KIDY-DT 10.1 FOX SAN ANGELO TX 339° 14.9 miles away ltgreen - uhf KSAN-DT 16.1 NBC SAN ANGELO TX 357° 16.8 miles away
> 
> violet - vhf KLST-DT 8.1 CBS SAN ANGELO TX 3° 7.8 miles away
> 
> 
> I am real close to the cbs station that is vhf as you can see. What do you think?
> 
> Will the CM 4228 pick up the CBS station even though its vhf????*



I believe the 4228 will pick up channel 8 DT 11 at that distance. I have channel 2 here 17 miles away and pick it up on a uhf no matter which way it points. They may not be at full power but being it's channel DT 11 / 8.1 You should be OK.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by natlib_
> *Thanks for your help. Here is the info on the 3 dtv stations here:
> 
> yellow - uhf KIDY-DT 10.1 FOX SAN ANGELO TX 339° 14.9 miles away ltgreen - uhf KSAN-DT 16.1 NBC SAN ANGELO TX 357° 16.8 miles away
> 
> violet - vhf KLST-DT 8.1 CBS SAN ANGELO TX 3° 7.8 miles away
> 
> 
> I am real close to the cbs station that is vhf as you can see. What do you think?
> 
> Will the CM 4228 pick up the CBS station even though its vhf????*



Probably. The 36dbu coverage map for the .76Kw STA still easily covers you. See http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DS596810.html 


It's not a guarantee, but I'd try it. If you have to you can easily add a VHF antenna later (rabbit ears, homemade dipole) and combine it with the feed from the 4228 with a vhf/uhf diplexer such as the CM 0549.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by rich.ssss_
> *Here is my deal: I'm located in the Greenbrier section of Chesapeake, VA. Dish Network 811 receiver. OTA locals towers at:
> 
> WVBT 296 degrees
> 
> WVEC 297
> 
> WPXV 293
> 
> WTKR 293
> 
> WTVZ 293
> 
> WHRO 293
> 
> WGNT 296
> 
> WAVY 296
> 
> All towers within 16 miles. I'm using a Channel Master 4221 on roof top. 5 ft. mast on gable puts it just about even with ridgeline. Less than 60 ft RG6 cable. There are a few tall trees across the street but it's not what I would call dense by any means. I seem to be getting good signal strength to all stations but can't find the one orientation to get all the channels at once, and channels that lock in one day are gone the next.
> 
> 
> After hours of fine tuning Last weekend I finally locked into all of the locals on Sunday morning ( by lowering the mast below the roof ridgeline). However by Sunday evening I lost two or three and by Monday morning I lost about half of them. I tried a 6db attenuator with no result. I have noticed the signal strength meter fluctuating wildly so I was convinced it was a multipath problem. Last night I bought a Zenith Silver Sensor indoor antenna and was able to receive all the locals with minor movement of the antenna (with and without the attenuator). I still haven't found the magic spot for the Silver Sensor to acquire all signals but can get them all with minor adjustments. The problem I have is the family members don't seem to appreciate the piece of modern art (antenna) on the living room shelf so I would still like to make a roof top antenna my final solution. Do I have any hope of eliminating the multipath with the CM 4221? The folks at Domes AV said they had multipath problems when they carried the CM 4221 and now exclusively use the CM 4228. Do you all think its worth a try ? I have also read many comments on the web that the Dish 811 is very sensitive to multiparth so perhaps I'm beating a dead horse? Thanks for your insight.*



The dish 811 is actually very good with multipath compared to some STB. I personally compared it with my neighbors USDT receiver on my system and 811 did much better with multipath then the USDT. It also picked up more digitals. The 4221 has a fairly wide beamwidth. The 4228 will do much better if it's multipath. Also you need to get a little higher at least above the roof line. In your case you have too much signal which is bouncing everywhere.

If you still have a problem then you might have to get 2 UHF yagis and stack them horiz. This will make the beamwidth extremely narrow.


----------



## watchdog

I have an RS bowtie for UHF and I'm having multipath issues because another house is directly in the way for reception. Can't move the house next door and there's no way to get by it. The other UHF stations come in OK. My questions are would two Yagi type UHF antennas help this out? The house next door is blocking the UHF station at 61 degrees and the other 4 UHF stations are all between 148 and 186 degrees. I wonder if the two yagis pointed in the different directions would be advantageous. I was thinking about yagis with large back to front ratios. Also, the yagi pointed to the 148 to 186 direction has to cover quite a big area. Am I better off with a smaller yagi that has wider beam width and a preamp if needed or is bigger better here? Comments please, I can tell there are a lot of very knowledgeable people on this thread.


Thanks, Watchdog


----------



## gawngulfing

I attempted to go to radio shack and ask for a Balun without really knowing what it was myself. After the 22 year old asked every other employee, then phoned some radio shack helpline he came back to tell me, "we must be out" but had no idea what it is.


Is balun a trade name? Is there an actual part name / number for RS? how about a picture or website with a picture?


Dazed and confused....


----------



## dpkimmel

I'm new to HD and need some help with a signal problem. I live north of Pittsburgh, PA. I live in a valley and have hills a half mile south of my house. I just installed a Radio Shack VU-190XR antenna along with an amplifier and rotor. I'm getting a strong signal from all of the stations with the exception of one. I'm having trouble with our local ABC affiliate, WTAE. The tower is approx. 53 miles to my south. The signal drops occasionally. I thought about purchasing another antenna. Perhaps a Channel Master 4228 or 4248. Which one of these do you think may be the solution to my problem? Is there another make or type of antenna I should consider? Should I try something else first? Can someone suggest some possible solutions for my problem?


Thanks for your help,


Dan


----------



## PhilJSmith67




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gawngulfing_
> *Is balun a trade name? Is there an actual part name / number for RS? how about a picture or website with a picture?*



They're common called "matching transformers." You need a 75-ohm to 300-ohm matching transformer. Someone at Radio Shack should at least be able to figure it out if you tell them you're connecting twin-lead cable to coax. If the guy at Radio Shack is still confused, go to Wal-Mart; they have them in the electronics department.


----------



## cpcat

RS 15-1140 Matching transformer

http://www.radioshack.com/search.asp...21&image1.y=39 


"Balun" comes from the "BALanced" to "UNbalanced" conversion


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dpkimmel_
> *I'm new to HD and need some help with a signal problem. I live north of Pittsburgh, PA. I live in a valley and have hills a half mile south of my house. I just installed a Radio Shack VU-190XR antenna along with an amplifier and rotor. I'm getting a strong signal from all of the stations with the exception of one. I'm having trouble with our local ABC affiliate, WTAE. The tower is approx. 53 miles to my south. The signal drops occasionally. I thought about purchasing another antenna. Perhaps a Channel Master 4228 or 4248. Which one of these do you think may be the solution to my problem? Is there another make or type of antenna I should consider? Should I try something else first? Can someone suggest some possible solutions for my problem?
> 
> 
> Thanks for your help,
> 
> 
> Dan*



A 4228 would be a good choice. Antennasdirect XG91 would be even better as that ABC is uhf 51 and the XG91 should do better than the 4228 in that range. The XG91 is also alot easier on your rotor. I wouldn't put an 8-bay on a rotor (I've done it and it weren't pretty during a strong windstorm). The lever arm is simply too long and the wind load too high.


Your preamp can also make a difference at that distance. You need low noise 2db or less and around 20db gain. I'd still try the antenna change first and go from there, though.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by watchdog_
> *I have an RS bowtie for UHF and I'm having multipath issues because another house is directly in the way for reception. Can't move the house next door and there's no way to get by it. The other UHF stations come in OK. My questions are would two Yagi type UHF antennas help this out? The house next door is blocking the UHF station at 61 degrees and the other 4 UHF stations are all between 148 and 186 degrees. I wonder if the two yagis pointed in the different directions would be advantageous. I was thinking about yagis with large back to front ratios. Also, the yagi pointed to the 148 to 186 direction has to cover quite a big area. Am I better off with a smaller yagi that has wider beam width and a preamp if needed or is bigger better here? Comments please, I can tell there are a lot of very knowledgeable people on this thread.
> 
> 
> Thanks, Watchdog*



Need to know where you are or at least how far from the towers you are and what station you're having problems with.


Also, give a rundown of your antenna type, preamp or no, installation location, and cable run length and type.


Next, it's always helpful to look at the reception of the analog equivalent station you're having trouble with and give a description of what you see, i.e. snowy, ghosty, no picture at all.


----------



## watchdog




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *Need to know where you are or at least how far from the towers you are and what station you're having problems with.
> 
> 
> Also, give a rundown of your antenna type, preamp or no, installation location, and cable run length and type.
> 
> 
> Next, it's always helpful to look at the reception of the analog equivalent station you're having trouble with and give a description of what you see, i.e. snowy, ghosty, no picture at all.*



NW Columbus, OH have RS Uhf Bowtie, no preamp, 25 ft. of RG6, attic location (roof location not possible)


Problem stations in analog

WOSU 34 at 61 degrees and 12.4 miles ghosty

WTTE 28 at 61 degrees and 12.4 miles slightly ghostly

(61 degrees is directly thru the large house next door)


Other stations in analog

WCMH 4 at 148 degrees and 7.5 miles no problem

WBNS 10 at 148 degrees and 7.5 miles no problem

WSYX 6 at 155 degrees and 9.5 miles no problem

WWHO 53 at 186 degrees and 32.2 miles snowy


Wanting to improve reception to be able to purchase HD equipment. Just starting to look at equipment and not sure what I will get yet.


----------



## Jackstraw8881

I just installed a channelmaster antenna with a rotor and Titan 2 amp, it works great (all the major networks including fox). The only problem is the wife complains about seeing the shiny metal on the antenna through the trees. Has any body painted an antenna black? does it weaken the reception? What kind of paint recc: Warren electronics mentioned possibly using automotive paint but to check with the AVS Forum first.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by watchdog_
> *NW Columbus, OH have RS Uhf Bowtie, no preamp, 25 ft. of RG6, attic location (roof location not possible)
> 
> 
> Problem stations in analog
> 
> WOSU 34 at 61 degrees and 12.4 miles ghosty
> 
> WTTE 28 at 61 degrees and 12.4 miles slightly ghostly
> 
> (61 degrees is directly thru the large house next door)
> 
> 
> Other stations in analog
> 
> WCMH 4 at 148 degrees and 7.5 miles no problem
> 
> WBNS 10 at 148 degrees and 7.5 miles no problem
> 
> WSYX 6 at 155 degrees and 9.5 miles no problem
> 
> WWHO 53 at 186 degrees and 32.2 miles snowy
> 
> 
> Wanting to improve reception to be able to purchase HD equipment. Just starting to look at equipment and not sure what I will get yet.*



Inside an attic you'll need all the antenna you can get, even close in sometimes. Be prepared to install something like a CM 4228 or Antennasdirect DB8 up there. Either will provide better gain and narrower beamwidth than what you are using currently, narrower beamwidth being the primary thing needed to reject multipath. You can't have too much antenna.


That said, I'd still try it first with what you have. You might get lucky. Your ABC is on 13 but any of the bowties should do well enough on the high vhf to bring it in. Continue to go without a preamp as that would likely make the multipath worse and 25ft of RG6 will give insignificant attenuation of the signal. A variable attenuator (available at Radio Shack) in some cases can be used to decrease the multipath signals and allow the receiver to lock to the main signal so keep that in mind as well.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jackstraw8881_
> *I just installed a channelmaster antenna with a rotor and Titan 2 amp, it works great (all the major networks including fox). The only problem is the wife complains about seeing the shiny metal on the antenna through the trees. Has any body painted an antenna black? does it weaken the reception? What kind of paint recc: Warren electronics mentioned possibly using automotive paint but to check with the AVS Forum first.*



If you give it some time to weather, it won't be nearly as shiny.










I wouldn't paint any of the driven elements or the contacts, but I can't imagine how painting any of the reflectors/directors would matter. Some here have said to use "non-metallic paint" but I still wouldn't paint the driven element(s) or the contacts.


----------



## philipgomez

I've been wondering... what signal strength does it take for a digital receiver to lock on to an OTA signal and yield a picture that does not drop out? I happen to be one of the lucky ones gets a strong signal to all the major networks in Atlanta but this question crossed my mind when I was setting up my antenna and getting it aimed correctly.


What is actually going on when you have less than 100% signal strength? In other words, if you get a 90% signal strength what is lacking in your picture or sound due to the 10% loss. This question is more for educational purposes as I have no real complaints about the picture quality. Thanks in advance for your input.


----------



## watchdog




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *Inside an attic you'll need all the antenna you can get, even close in sometimes. Be prepared to install something like a CM 4228 or Antennasdirect DB8 up there. Either will provide better gain and narrower beamwidth than what you are using currently, narrower beamwidth being the primary thing needed to reject multipath. You can't have too much antenna.
> 
> 
> That said, I'd still try it first with what you have. You might get lucky. Your ABC is on 13 but any of the bowties should do well enough on the high vhf to bring it in. Continue to go without a preamp as that would likely make the multipath worse and 25ft of RG6 will give insignificant attenuation of the signal. A variable attenuator (available at Radio Shack) in some cases can be used to decrease the multipath signals and allow the receiver to lock to the main signal so keep that in mind as well.*



Thanks for the reply. Still trying to understand if I will need two UHF antennas because of the towers being at 61 degrees thru the house next door and the other towers between 148 and 186 degrees. If I need two will it reintroduce multipath because CM 4228 and the DB8 don't have as much front to back ratio as yagi type do.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by watchdog_
> *Thanks for the reply. Still trying to understand if I will need two UHF antennas because of the towers being at 61 degrees thru the house next door and the other towers between 148 and 186 degrees. If I need two will it reintroduce multipath because CM 4228 and the DB8 don't have as much front to back ratio as yagi type do.*



Sorry, missed that part of it. The best thing would be to put a rotator up there. Another option would be two antennas on separate downleads connected to an A/B switch down by the TV. Most likely you could grab the stations within the 148-155 range with one antenna position. Not sure about the more distant station at 186. Again, the best thing is a rotator so you can position the antenna precisely.


It's also possible to combine the antennas using a combination of Channelmaster Jointenna filters, but this can get tricky when you're talking multiple channel filtering and you can't filter adjacent channels or channels too close together.


You're right about multipath being a problem, but with dissimilar antennas it has little to do with front-to-back ratio. It's all about the signal being different and arriving at different times that causes the multipath. Front-to-back ratio *can* be important when you're talking about *a single* antenna's ability to handle multipath, though.


Did I say that a rotator is the best option? Oh yea, I said that already.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gawngulfing_
> *Is balun a trade name? Is there an actual part name / number for RS? how about a picture or website with a picture?
> *



Catalog #: 15-1230


They call it a "matching transformer." It's not a trade name, it's the common name for it. Here's the link:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D1230


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by philipgomez_
> *I've been wondering... what signal strength does it take for a digital receiver to lock on to an OTA signal and yield a picture that does not drop out?*



Every receiver seems to have a different signal strength meter, and what one reports doesn't match another, even for identical receivers.


In answer to your theory question, the digital signal is sent with FEC, which stands for Forward Error-Correction. It's essentially a matrixed CRC that allows the receiver to not only figure out which byte was corrupt, but also what they byte should have been.


Generically speaking, a 100% signal (assuming this is not a tuner that uses a combined dBu and quality equation) would mean that you're getting zero errors on the stream. 90% would mean that about 10% of the data received is bad. In theory, ATSC 8VSB should work when the meter reads above 50%. In practice, what often happens between 50% and 60% is that the CRC data gets fudged often enough to confuse the receiver and create macroblocking or dropouts. Some receivers manage with a 40% level, and some need 70% or more to work right.


As long as you're getting a breakup-free picture, you aren't missing anything at the 90% level.


----------



## philipgomez

Thanks for the reply sregener. I had no idea that there was such a thing as "Forward Error-Correction" in the digital signal. That explains why the picture stays solid with a less than a 100% signal. I've noticed on my receiver (Epson Livingstation) that right around the 50% mark seems to be the point at which a picture will hold.


Great response.


----------



## sf49ersnfl

I need help. I can only get in my local cbs at 25% with a silver sensor. I was wondering will this philips indoor help my situation it has a 45db amplifier built in or perhaps another antenna I heard radio shack indoors are pretty good. Thanks in advance!


----------



## RagerXS

I have 2 issues:


1) Can anyone suggest a rotor that would work well to suspend a CM 4228 from the rafters in my attic?


2) My Hughes HTL-HD doesn't have a signal strength meter so I am really struggling with a lot of trial and error in setting my antenna for OTA reception. Any ideas how to solve this without breaking the bank?


~ Fred


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by RagerXS_
> *1) Can anyone suggest a rotor that would work well to suspend a CM 4228 from the rafters in my attic?*



I mounted a Channel Master 9521A on the floor of the attic, attached a mast with the CM4228 attached, and placed a piece of wood above between the rafters that the mast goes through in order to keep it straight.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sf49ersnfl_
> *I need help. I can only get in my local cbs at 25% with a silver sensor. I was wondering will this philips indoor help my situation it has a 45db amplifier built in or perhaps another antenna I heard radio shack indoors are pretty good. Thanks in advance!*



Need more info as to where you live zip etc. The Philips will probably do no better. The silver sensor is one of the better indoors. If theres no signal to amplify then 100db amp won't help. If you can return the Philips, if it doesn't work, you can always try. The best UHF indoor is the rat shack model here.
http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...%5Fid=930-0998 


You can also go to antennaweb.org and see what size antenna you may need. Leave your zip if you need more help.


----------



## coaster100

i live between two cities and have an antenna in my attic pointed toward one, the other is 180 degerrs opposite. if i add elements in the other direction will i suffer a confused signal? I would really like to receive the other digital signals without moving the antenna. thanks


----------



## daredevil23




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dswallow_
> *I mounted a Channel Master 9521A on the floor of the attic, attached a mast with the CM4228 attached, and placed a piece of wood above between the rafters that the mast goes through in order to keep it straight.*



Seems like you got way too much wood above that antenna.


----------



## watchdog




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *Sorry, missed that part of it. The best thing would be to put a rotator up there. Another option would be two antennas on separate downleads connected to an A/B switch down by the TV. Most likely you could grab the stations within the 148-155 range with one antenna position. Not sure about the more distant station at 186. Again, the best thing is a rotator so you can position the antenna precisely.
> 
> 
> It's also possible to combine the antennas using a combination of Channelmaster Jointenna filters, but this can get tricky when you're talking multiple channel filtering and you can't filter adjacent channels or channels too close together.
> 
> 
> You're right about multipath being a problem, but with dissimilar antennas it has little to do with front-to-back ratio. It's all about the signal being different and arriving at different times that causes the multipath. Front-to-back ratio *can* be important when you're talking about *a single* antenna's ability to handle multipath, though.
> 
> 
> Did I say that a rotator is the best option? Oh yea, I said that already.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Thanks, cpcat.


I'll climb up into the attic this weekend and take some measurements to see if a CM 4228 and a rotor will fit between the trusses and still be able to turn.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by RagerXS_
> *I have 2 issues:
> 
> 
> 1) Can anyone suggest a rotor that would work well to suspend a CM 4228 from the rafters in my attic?
> 
> 
> ~ Fred*



Can't think of a reason why the CM 9521 wouldn't work. You can mount it similarly to Doug's picture above or you could mount it upside down, whichever works best for you. The tab on the rotor mount is easy to cut off with a hacksaw which will allow you to slide it over the mast a little further if you need to.


----------



## Matt L

Well, as little more info would help. ARe both signals UHF? VHF? What freq. are they (not the remapped channels like 7-1)? Being 180 apart, if the signal is strong a bidirectional antenna would work fine. But if you're more than 15-20 miles out it may be a problem.


In some circumstances you can join two antennas and get decent reception, not it's often not the case. The easiest option would be install a second antenna and drop a new feed and use an A/B switch if one isn't built into your receiver. Channel Master does make a product called Joint- tenna that will join two antennas but it is expensive and does have some insertion loss, not the easiest route to go.


Welcome, and give us more info...


----------



## KostaVan

PLEASE HELP SOMEONE


I would greatly appreciate anyones input they can give me on this topic.


I would like to pick up these stations in my area - Please lead me in the right direction on what I need to do. I will be putting an antenna on top of the dish on top of my house with probably a 2-3 foot extension pole IF it helps any. Here is what I'm working with.


* green - vhf WCFT-DT 5.1 ABC TUSCALOOSA AL 23° 21.5 5

* lt green - uhf WBRC-DT 6.1 FOX BIRMINGHAM AL 66° 49.1 50

* blue - uhf WIAT-DT 42.1 CBS BIRMINGHAM AL 66° 48.6 30

* blue - uhf WVTM-DT 13.1 NBC BIRMINGHAM AL 66° 49.3 52


Which antenna would you recommend I use to pick these stations up? I'm worried about being able to pick up the Birmingham stations without them dropping in and out.


Will a Winegard Sensar III GS-2200 work in this situation? I understand its the dish supplied with VOOM but don't want to install it and find out stations are dropping in and out. Thank you for anyone who can help or has experience with this antenna.


-Kosta


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *Can't think of a reason why the CM 9521 wouldn't work. You can mount it similarly to Doug's picture above or you could mount it upside down, whichever works best for you. The tab on the rotor mount is easy to cut off with a hacksaw which will allow you to slide it over the mast a little further if you need to.*



I thought of one problem with mounting it upside down: The rotator will rotate in the opposite direction. You'll have to subtract from 360 degrees to correct for this. For example: If rotator control reads 210 degrees, actual bearing will be 360-210=150 degrees. Another way:

Actual bearing+rotator control reading=360

If this bothers you to have to keep up with maybe you should try to find a way to mount is right-side-up.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *I thought of one problem with mounting it upside down: The rotator will rotate in the opposite direction. You'll have to subtract from 360 degrees to correct for this. For example: If rotator control reads 210 degrees, actual bearing will be 360-210=150 degrees. Another way:
> 
> Actual bearing+rotator control reading=360
> 
> If this bothers you to have to keep up with maybe you should try to find a way to mount is right-side-up.*



If you change the red and green wire the rotor wil run backwards. That my take care of the the wrong degree reading. May be worth a try.


----------



## RagerXS

Man, I love this forum... Thanks, everyone. What is the best place to get a CM 9521?


~ Fred


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by KostaVan_
> *Will a Winegard Sensar III GS-2200 work in this situation? I understand its the dish supplied with VOOM but don't want to install it and find out stations are dropping in and out. Thank you for anyone who can help or has experience with this antenna.
> *



I strongly suspect it will not at the distances you've listed. You need a *real* antenna, and since you've got a VHF station in the mix, you need a VHF/UHF combo antenna or some combination of a VHF and a UHF antenna. Avoid anything that is small - they won't work at that distance. For UHF, consider an 8-bay model or a yagi that is longer than 80". You can look back in this thread for instructions on how to make a single-channel dipole using 300-Ohm wire that should work for the VHF station you're after.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by RagerXS_
> *Man, I love this forum... Thanks, everyone. What is the best place to get a CM 9521?*



I've personally done business with Warren Electronics and Stark Electronics and had no problems with either. You can look them up here:

http://www.warrenelectronics.com 
http://www.starkelectronic.com


----------



## rich.ssss




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by rich.ssss_
> *Here is my deal: I'm located in the Greenbrier section of Chesapeake, VA. Dish Network 811 receiver. OTA locals towers at:
> 
> WVBT 296 degrees
> 
> WVEC 297
> 
> WPXV 293
> 
> WTKR 293
> 
> WTVZ 293
> 
> WHRO 293
> 
> WGNT 296
> 
> WAVY 296
> 
> All towers within 16 miles. I'm using a Channel Master 4221 on roof top. 5 ft. mast on gable puts it just about even with ridgeline. Less than 60 ft RG6 cable. There are a few tall trees across the street but it's not what I would call dense by any means. I seem to be getting good signal strength to all stations but can't find the one orientation to get all the channels at once, and channels that lock in one day are gone the next.
> 
> 
> After hours of fine tuning Last weekend I finally locked into all of the locals on Sunday morning ( by lowering the mast below the roof ridgeline). However by Sunday evening I lost two or three and by Monday morning I lost about half of them. I tried a 6db attenuator with no result. I have noticed the signal strength meter fluctuating wildly so I was convinced it was a multipath problem. Last night I bought a Zenith Silver Sensor indoor antenna and was able to receive all the locals with minor movement of the antenna (with and without the attenuator). I still haven't found the magic spot for the Silver Sensor to acquire all signals but can get them all with minor adjustments. The problem I have is the family members don't seem to appreciate the piece of modern art (antenna) on the living room shelf so I would still like to make a roof top antenna my final solution. Do I have any hope of eliminating the multipath with the CM 4221? The folks at Domes AV said they had multipath problems when they carried the CM 4221 and now exclusively use the CM 4228. Do you all think its worth a try ? I have also read many comments on the web that the Dish 811 is very sensitive to multiparth so perhaps I'm beating a dead horse? Thanks for your insight.*



EUREKA!!!!!

I decided to try the small RS yagi and immediately locked into all stations except 3-1. By adding the attenuator and lowering the mast below the ridgeline so the antenna is looking through the roof I guess it created enough attenuation to eliminate the multipath. I now receive all the locals with good signal strength and apparent reliability. Thanks again for all of your suggestions. I have learned this stuff is much an art as a science. Bring on the Super Bowl!!!


----------



## gawngulfing

I have a combo VHF/UHF antenna that came with my house. Probably 20 years old (judging by the rotor control it could be 30).


Radio shack advertises HD antenna, how does this differ from mine? here a picture of mine. ( I took it at night then inverted the color so it looks like an old photo but it's not)

followjoshonline.com/albums/home_theater/images/antenna.jpg 


I have just bought a new balun for it, just haven't installed it yet. roof is too slippery right now.


THanks,


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by RagerXS_
> *Man, I love this forum... Thanks, everyone. What is the best place to get a CM 9521?
> 
> 
> ~ Fred*



Lowe's also has them.


----------



## etcarroll

Do you need a HD antenna for HD reception


Nope, it's a marketing gimmick - just need a good UHF antenna.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gawngulfing_
> *I have a combo VHF/UHF antenna that came with my house. Probably 20 years old (judging by the rotor control it could be 30).
> 
> 
> Radio shack advertises HD antenna, how does this differ from mine? here a picture of mine. ( I took it at night then inverted the color so it looks like an old photo but it's not)
> 
> followjoshonline.com/albums/home_theater/images/antenna.jpg
> 
> 
> I have just bought a new balun for it, just haven't installed it yet. roof is too slippery right now.
> 
> 
> THanks,*



No difference. A good analog antenna will be a good digital one. Digital is prone to the "cliff effect" however so instead of poor reception you often get nothing at all. If that antenna worked well for you in the past and you were able to receive relatively snow-free and ghost-free reception it will most likely work well for digital. Depending on your local offerings, you may need both vhf and uhf for digital as well. Go to http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/wi/ for info on your local stations. Click on the analog equivalent's "complete fcc data" and it will give both analog and digital info.


----------



## dswallow

The biggest problem with very old antennas is that they were designed with higher UHF frequencies in mind -- frequencies no longer used for UHF television. So there might be something to be gained by replacing it, but technically there's nothing special about an antenna labeled "HD" and one not labeled "HD."


----------



## cgorra

While playing around with my rotator tonight, I noticed a couple of new things out of the Springfield market: First of all, WGGB-DT was coming in strongly at my house, This was the first time that I have seen their signal in West Hartford, and, while the programming was still SD, the signal strength was excellent. It looks as if they may have increased their operating power substantially: I wonder if a conversion to HDTV programming is in the works, too?


WWLP-DT seems to have changed their PSIP information as they no longer remap to 22-1 and 22-2. They come in at my house, on my LG tuner as 11-2 and 11-3. I would guess that it is a temporary issue, but I also wonder if WWLP -DT has increased their transmitting power at the same time, and if the two issues are somehow related.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cgorra_
> *While playing around with my rotator tonight, I noticed a couple of new things out of the Springfield market: First of all, WGGB-DT was coming in strongly at my house, This was the first time that I have seen their signal in West Hartford, and, while the programming was still SD, the signal strength was excellent. It looks as if they may have increased their operating power substantially: I wonder if a conversion to HDTV programming is in the works, too?*



More likely, you were experiencing a tropospheric ducting event. See if that signal still looks as good this afternoon.


On occasion, I've gotten UHF digital locks from 250+ miles away, from low-powered stations. This is, however, the exception and definitely not the rule.


----------



## balpers

I have an outdoor antenna and a Sony KD34XBR2. This combination is sufficient to get me about 20 digital/HDTV channels in Los Angeles.


Video is reasonably reliable on the stations I watch, but the audio on Dolby signals is driving me nuts. On some, but not all, stations the signal will become "unlocked" for a period of 2-3 seconds and I lose audio while the Dolby decoder in my receiver tries to figure out how to decode the signal (at least this is what I think is going on). This can happen several times during a half hour program (ABC seems to be the worst offender here.)


I have a choice of using the RCA audio inputs or an optical input. It has become so irritating that I am using the RCA inputs almost all the time. Of course, the cost of this choice is that I lose Dolby decoding.


I brought up the signal strength display on the Sony and watched it carefully for a while. Signal strength is generally about 75%-80%. There is some slight variability as I watch the display on some channels, maybe about 2%-3%. The audio dropouts seem to coincide with momentary drops in signal strength.


I'm thinking that if I could get a small to moderate boost in signal strength, I might be able to maintain the lock for the Dolby signal.


Modifying the outdoor antenna is not an option. I'm hoping that an indoor antenna amplifier might give me the boost I need.


1. Does my analysis make sense?

2. What are the odds that my proposed solution will work?

3. Can anyone suggest an indoor amplifier that would work?


Thanks,


Burt


----------



## cmk

I need some advice. I have the 8 bow tie antenna CM4228 in my attic right now. Most of the time I get pretty good results with it. My signal meter does bounce around quite a bit and from time to time I get dropouts. I suspect it is due to multipath issues. I don't want a large antenna outside on my roof. My question is, do you think a variable attenuator will help or looking at where my dish is mounted a clip on (Terk) antenna would line up nicely toward the tower. Should I try one of those?? I have had very little luck with Terk products in the past. I am only 11 miles from the tower. Do you think the clip on outside would do better than the CM4228 in the attic?? The antennuator could be an inexpensive test too?? Let me know your thoughts.


Thanks


----------



## jimc705

try the attenuator forget about the clip on Terk. good luck!


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cmk_
> *.... Do you think the clip on outside would do better than the CM4228 in the attic??
> 
> Thanks*



A Winegard SS2000 outside will get you more signal than a CM4228 inside. It is small and looks good (well OK) to the wife.


Anything outside is better than an attic antenna.


Bob C


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by bobchase_
> *Anything outside is better than an attic antenna.*



My CM4228 in the attic works better than my SS-1000 (on or off a CM7777 preamp) outside. And I'm clear line of sight to the towers -- mostly over water, so very little in the way of obstructions. The SS-2000 is just an SS-1000 with a preamp.


Anyway, I really wanted to say in regard to your statement that I quoted...


Ahem, "Terk Clip-on".


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cmk_
> *I need some advice. I have the 8 bow tie antenna CM4228 in my attic right now. Most of the time I get pretty good results with it. My signal meter does bounce around quite a bit and from time to time I get dropouts. I suspect it is due to multipath issues. I don't want a large antenna outside on my roof. My question is, do you think a variable attenuator will help or looking at where my dish is mounted a clip on (Terk) antenna would line up nicely toward the tower. Should I try one of those?? I have had very little luck with Terk products in the past. I am only 11 miles from the tower. Do you think the clip on outside would do better than the CM4228 in the attic?? The antennuator could be an inexpensive test too?? Let me know your thoughts.*



I'd try the attenuator first, and be prepared to put a Square Shooter outside. It's a decent antenna for anything within 20-30 miles, and at 16"x16"x4" and using a standard satellite dish mount, it's really not objectionable.


The Terk clip-on will mostly be useless except in the very best reception conditions.


----------



## gawngulfing

Is it possible for an antenna to "go bad". I've written a couple times about my combo UHF/VHF antenna and getting no signal. I know it's not the cable. I however do not know about the balun yet. Just wondering if it is a possibility.


THanks


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gawngulfing_
> *Is it possible for an antenna to "go bad". I've written a couple times about my combo UHF/VHF antenna and getting no signal. I know it's not the cable. I however do not know about the balun yet. Just wondering if it is a possibility.
> 
> 
> THanks*



Possible but unlikely. I'd try the balun first. What antenna and where are you located? any mountains or buildings in the way? I have a Winegard HD 7084 in Morristown TN and get reliable digitals out to 70 miles. If you are closer then that on an equal gain antenna with no major obstructions you should be able to do about the same. I'm not using an amp and have about 40 feet of RG6 to roof mounted tripod. If you are very close in multipath can kill digitals all together. Are you getting any analog. Combos have a fairly wide beamwidth my is about 30+ degrees which works great for me. I have stations that far apart and still get them all.


Are you going directly from antenna to TV without any amps ,splitters or anything in the feed line? If so try and remove or if possible make another RG 6 run seperate and see what happens. Can you get a freinds antenna to try? Antennas Direct will let you but and antenna and try it. If you don't get anything you can return for a full refund if all else fails.


One other thing to check. Is TV programmed properly for off air and not set up for cable? If using a STB for digitals be sure using the correct input on TV Vid 1 , vid 2 etc. Some HDTV's have to have input set to DTV (ATSC) be sure this is set correctly through menus. Good Luck.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gawngulfing_
> *I have a combo VHF/UHF antenna that came with my house. Probably 20 years old (judging by the rotor control it could be 30).
> 
> 
> Radio shack advertises HD antenna, how does this differ from mine? here a picture of mine. ( I took it at night then inverted the color so it looks like an old photo but it's not)
> 
> followjoshonline.com/albums/home_theater/images/antenna.jpg
> 
> 
> I have just bought a new balun for it, just haven't installed it yet. roof is too slippery right now.
> 
> 
> THanks,*



I did not see this before. Looks like you are fairly close to Green Bay , Eau Claire, Milwaukee and Madison. You should be able to pull from one or more of these markets. A new antenna will do a better job then and 20 year lod setting out in the weather for years. With an antenna that old a wire could be broke at the antenna could've been lightning fused etc... . I'd get a good new antenna before going up there. I'd only make one trip if possible including a new CM 9521a rotor (about $75) See what antennaweb.org says you can get and by a new antenna. If you only need UHF you can get a good new one for less then $75 especially since you already have the mast and mount. Good combo about $100 to $180 if you want analog and VHF. As high as that antenna is you should be getting some kind of signal. I'd almost gurantee a broken or corroded connection at the antenna. I'd also make a new run of RG6. One trip and done if I was to do it. Good Luck.


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dswallow_
> *My CM4228 in the attic works better than my SS-1000 (on or off a CM7777 preamp) outside. And I'm clear line of sight to the towers -- mostly over water, so very little in the way of obstructions. The SS-2000 is just an SS-1000 with a preamp.
> 
> 
> Anyway, I really wanted to say in regard to your statement that I quoted...
> 
> 
> Ahem, "Terk Clip-on".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Doug,


You are absolutely right - what in my garage is a SS-1000. Thank you for the correction.


As I'm not a big fan of Pre-Amps, that is a very big OOPS!


thanks,


Bob C


----------



## Sport73

I've got an outdoor antenna that does a pretty good job pulling in 4 out of the 5 local HD's I'm hoping to get. It won't, however, get ABC and FOX simultaneoulsy. On the other hand, I've got an internal antenna (Silver Sensor) that pulls in FOX without issue, but won't get ABC (go figure!).


I'd like to combine these into 1 receiver so that I have seamless access to all the locals. How do I do this?


I've heard that I need a combiner. Do I also need equal cable runs? They're nearly equal now (30' indoor, about 25-30 on outdoor). Can I just use a splitter?


Any input is appreciated, especially the cost and best place to get necessary parts. Thanks.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Sport73_
> *I've got an outdoor antenna that does a pretty good job pulling in 4 out of the 5 local HD's I'm hoping to get. It won't, however, get ABC and FOX simultaneoulsy. On the other hand, I've got an internal antenna (Silver Sensor) that pulls in FOX without issue, but won't get ABC (go figure!).
> 
> 
> I'd like to combine these into 1 receiver so that I have seamless access to all the locals. How do I do this?
> 
> 
> I've heard that I need a combiner. Do I also need equal cable runs? They're nearly equal now (30' indoor, about 25-30 on outdoor). Can I just use a splitter?
> 
> 
> Any input is appreciated, especially the cost and best place to get necessary parts. Thanks.*



Combining two different antennas is an art; ideally you'd want to make sure no overlapping signals existed by notching out the range of frequencies you want to come from each; depending on what you need to notch on each antenna, it can be expensive or it can be pretty cheap. For example, deivces to combine VHF and UHF from separate antennas are readily available and very cheap. But if you need UHF44 from one, and UHF 45, an adjacent channel, from another, you need a rather expensive filter to ensure the notching is clean and accurate.


In other words, you won't know if it'll work till you try, but don't count on it. You're more likely to end up with more problems, or to find that placement of each antenna can be really important in order to get all signals just right so they aren't creating more interference than they're solving.


The first thing to examine is what power, and what frequencies, and what directions/distance each station is coming from. You might find explanations for non-reception just among those -- a station you can't get may be very low power right now, or may be off in a different direction. You also need to look at the terrain between you and each; hills/mountains/tall buildings nearby all can make a difference. From that info, maybe we can offer more specific solutions.


----------



## raycock

Just a few sugestions that I have learned from OTA antennas. I have purchased the Stealth, Yagi, Motorola, and now am on my 4th antenna. I had purchased a telescoping mast (50ft) and put all of these antennas (one at a time) on top. None of them would bring in 50.1. I was beginning to think that I was the only one that was not receiving this signal. Living only 8.3 miles from the tower, I began to think. First, I hooked the last antenna inside of the house and received all of the channels so I began to search the cable. Everything fine there, so I lowered the telescoping down to 15 ft and now I am receiving all OTA channels with the last antenna that I purchased (Channel Master 4 Bow). Just to let you know that if you are not receiving the signal with OTA antenna, try lowering it first before purchasing another antenna.


----------



## gawngulfing




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *
> 
> Are you going directly from antenna to TV without any amps ,splitters or anything in the feed line? If so try and remove or if possible make another RG 6 run seperate and see what happens. Can you get a freinds antenna to try? Antennas Direct will let you but and antenna and try it. If you don't get anything you can return for a full refund if all else fails.
> 
> 
> One other thing to check. Is TV programmed properly for off air and not set up for cable? If using a STB for digitals be sure using the correct input on TV Vid 1 , vid 2 etc. Some HDTV's have to have input set to DTV (ATSC) be sure this is set correctly through menus. Good Luck.*



Going from Antenna about 50 ft to a barrel connect to another 50 foot run to STB. For kicks and giggles I bought a set to amplified indoor antenna from walmart, to make sure it wasn't the STB. I got about 5 bars (out of a possible 15) so never got a lock on the signal but I saw something. I took it back now.


No amp, no splitter. I got on the roof to the mount (tripod) but there is no stinking way of getting to the antenna. The tripod is about 9 foot tall, with a mast and rotor with a second mast to the antenna about 13 feet or so about the roof top. I am not about to put a step ladder on the peek of my roof with the current winter conditions. So I'm not sure what to do next.


I figured with 38 miles to Wausau and 88 miles to Green Bay towers I should get something.


I think it might be hacksaw time on the mount legs go get to the antenna and then use a larger diameter pipe to couple the legs back to the mount.


I just spent $1200 on equipment for my Home theater projector, STB from Ebay, new speaker wire, and AV cables, my spending is kind of cut off for a little while, if you know what I mean. So I'm hoping to do this cheaper. I know the rotor is fine, it rotates excellently, however I think there is a short in the flat 5 connector wire when it gets wet, as I saw bare copper wire when I was on the roof.


Thanks everyone for your help


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gawngulfing_
> *Going from Antenna about 50 ft to a barrel connect to another 50 foot run to STB. For kicks and giggles I bought a set to amplified indoor antenna from walmart, to make sure it wasn't the STB. I got about 5 bars (out of a possible 15) so never got a lock on the signal but I saw something. I took it back now.
> 
> 
> No amp, no splitter. I got on the roof to the mount (tripod) but there is no stinking way of getting to the antenna. The tripod is about 9 foot tall, with a mast and rotor with a second mast to the antenna about 13 feet or so about the roof top. I am not about to put a step ladder on the peek of my roof with the current winter conditions. So I'm not sure what to do next.
> 
> 
> I figured with 38 miles to Wausau and 88 miles to Green Bay towers I should get something.
> 
> 
> I think it might be hacksaw time on the mount legs go get to the antenna and then use a larger diameter pipe to couple the legs back to the mount.
> 
> 
> I just spent $1200 on equipment for my Home theater projector, STB from Ebay, new speaker wire, and AV cables, my spending is kind of cut off for a little while, if you know what I mean. So I'm hoping to do this cheaper. I know the rotor is fine, it rotates excellently, however I think there is a short in the flat 5 connector wire when it gets wet, as I saw bare copper wire when I was on the roof.
> 
> 
> Thanks everyone for your help*



I don't know what antenna you're currently using, but whatever it is it will benefit from a good low noise preamp at that distance and with 100 ft of cable run. Get a CM 7777 and put it at the base of the tripod (you'll have to splice the coax). Ideally, it would go up on the mast just underneath the

antenna but you can do that when the weather warms up. Make sure the FM trap is set to "in" and the rest of the connections/settings are set appropriately for your situation. The power supply goes inside the house next to your TV set.


----------



## dswallow

My guess is you have to take it down the way it was probably put up -- detach the tripod from the roof and lower the whole thing somewhere that you can work on/check the wiring.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by bobchase_
> *Anything outside is better than an attic antenna.*



As others have said, this is not always a true statement.


Best case (and many don't have best case), placing an antenna in an attic costs 50% of the absolute signal strength (in dBu or dBi, not on the meter.) This means that you could take the dB rating of the antenna and reduce it by 3. Then compare it to another antenna outdoors.


The SquareShooter has a gain figure of about 4db. The 4228 is roughly 13db. 10db is still much better than 4db, so placing a 4228 in your attic is going to be better by 6db, or about 4 times the signal gathering ability.


Note, however, that multipath is the #1 problem with attic environments, not absolute signal strength, so absolute gain may not be the primary factor. Still, an outdoor antenna is never guaranteed to be better than an indoor one, especially when the outdoor one's specifications are so wildly inferior to the indoor one.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Sport73_
> *I'd like to combine these into 1 receiver so that I have seamless access to all the locals. How do I do this?
> 
> 
> I've heard that I need a combiner. Do I also need equal cable runs? They're nearly equal now (30' indoor, about 25-30 on outdoor). Can I just use a splitter?*



What you probably need is one of these:
http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/TVS/Passives.htm 


They have some "bleed", such that if you have a channel on one antenna that is within 2-3 channel numbers of another, it isn't likely to work. But if you have a reasonable gap between channel numbers, this is absolutely the way to go.


A common splitter is unlikely to work well. It will most likely make your reception worse. Signals won't be "in phase" unless you're very, very lucky, and even then, they're likely to only be in phase for one channel.


The cable lengths don't matter. The only time cable lengths matter is when you are combining two identical antennas pointed in exactly the same direction on the same plane. In any other configuration, the phasing won't match across the entire spectrum.


----------



## claytonHD

Ok, I am frustrated at trying to get OTA signals from a tower I can actually see from my deck. I am in Clayton, NC trying to get the Raleigh, NC stations. I currently have a UHF Yagi antenna (I don't remember the model), no preamp or amp, and about 70' of cable. Antennaweb says 5.3 miles to the tower. I have pointed the antenna with a compass per AW specs.


I can get CBS sometimes, FOX sometimes, ABC sometimes, etc. But nothing is ever stable. It changes night to night. I know my antenna mount is steady, but I also know I am shooting through a few trees that are 100 yards away or so. So I figured multipath would be an issue so I went with the Yagi, which I thought was more directional.


Question is, what to do? Could it be a bad ground to the antenna? Does grounding effect reception? Should I go with something like a DB4 and a preamp even this close to the towers? I am actually going to try a cheap set of rabbit ears tonight. Won't that be wonderful if it works and I went to all this trouble to install and antenna on the roof!


Thanks for any help.


----------



## Andrew_J_M




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by claytonHD_
> *Ok, I am frustrated at trying to get OTA signals from a tower I can actually see from my deck. I am in Clayton, NC trying to get the Raleigh, NC stations. I currently have a UHF Yagi antenna (I don't remember the model), no preamp or amp, and about 70' of cable. Antennaweb says 5.3 miles to the tower. I have pointed the antenna with a compass per AW specs.
> 
> 
> I can get CBS sometimes, FOX sometimes, ABC sometimes, etc. But nothing is ever stable. It changes night to night. I know my antenna mount is steady, but I also know I am shooting through a few trees that are 100 yards away or so. So I figured multipath would be an issue so I went with the Yagi, which I thought was more directional.
> 
> 
> Question is, what to do? Could it be a bad ground to the antenna? Does grounding effect reception? Should I go with something like a DB4 and a preamp even this close to the towers? I am actually going to try a cheap set of rabbit ears tonight. Won't that be wonderful if it works and I went to all this trouble to install and antenna on the roof!
> 
> 
> Thanks for any help.*



You may have too much antenna. Try an attenuator from Radio Shack - they do a variable version which may help. If you have a spare splitter handy you could try that first, just dividing the cable could give about 3db attenuation.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by claytonHD_
> *Question is, what to do? Could it be a bad ground to the antenna? Does grounding effect reception? Should I go with something like a DB4 and a preamp even this close to the towers? I am actually going to try a cheap set of rabbit ears tonight. Won't that be wonderful if it works and I went to all this trouble to install and antenna on the roof!*



At your distance, a preamplifier will be the kiss of death for reception. Never, ever, ever, use a preamplifier when you're less than 10 miles from the station.


Two ideas come to mind for me. First, try pointing your antenna up. Most towers have their transmitters pretty high up on the tower, and they radiate *out* more than *down*. You might very well be in the "shadow" of the tower. In such situations, a simple bowtie antenna often works better because they aren't so fussy about up-and-down as a yagi. (Yagi's are directional in both the horizontal and vertical planes.)


The second one is to look at your analogs and make sure you've got a clean picture. At that distance, you shouldn't have any snow at all. So check for ghosting. Make sure that antenna is hooked up correctly. If you see a lot of ghosting, but everything else looks good, get an attenuator. If not, then multipath is probably not your problem.


I think you've overestimated the multipath of those trees, personally, and you may have gotten an antenna that is "too" directional. And yagis are very directional - above channel 40 or so. Below that, they often use the "corner-reflector" portion of the antenna, which is far less directional. Under channel 20, they're downright promiscuous.


----------



## Sport73




> The first thing to examine is what power, and what frequencies, and what directions/distance each station is coming from. You might find explanations for non-reception just among those -- a station you can't get may be very low power right now, or may be off in a different direction. You also need to look at the terrain between you and each; hills/mountains/tall buildings nearby all can make a difference. From that info, maybe we can offer more specific solutions.[\\quote]
> 
> 
> I'm only 5-25 miles away from the towers, (Wellington FL to West Palm Beach stations) but Fox and ABC appear to be in precisely opposite directions. I connected both antennas through a splitter and found that I got both Fox and ABC simultaneously, but OF COURSE CBS dropped out (it's the only VHF channel and usually the strongest of all). I suspect that this is because the Silver Sensor is actually pulling in everything with the STB tuner, but it's non-VHF. I'm going to separate them again so that I can at least get everything (if not through the same tuner). Sounds as though I'm going to have to get used to using the TV's tuner for Fox and the STB for everything else as I had it before.
> 
> 
> The only upside is that I plan to buy a HD Tivo which I understand has 2 OTA inputs, so perhaps I can connect both and it will integrate the signals into the single box.


----------



## greywolf

The HD DirecTiVo has 2 OTA tuners but only one input that is split internally. Even if if it had 2, it would be a crap shoot as to which was used when any channel was selected.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Sport73_
> 
> I'm only 5-25 miles away from the towers, (Wellington FL to West Palm Beach stations) but Fox and ABC appear to be in precisely opposite directions. I connected both antennas through a splitter and found that I got both Fox and ABC simultaneously, but OF COURSE CBS dropped out (it's the only VHF channel and usually the strongest of all). I suspect that this is because the Silver Sensor is actually pulling in everything with the STB tuner, but it's non-VHF. I'm going to separate them again so that I can at least get everything (if not through the same tuner). Sounds as though I'm going to have to get used to using the TV's tuner for Fox and the STB for everything else as I had it before.
> 
> 
> [/b]



The reason you're having problems is multipath generated by two antennas pointed in different directions. You can run two downleads into an A/B switch as a solution. You can also use the Jointenna product from channelmaster as a solution. Finally, a DB4 or CM 4221 on a rotor would also likely solve your problem. *Possibly* you might even pick up one of those stations through the back end of the DB4 or (or CM 4221 with screen removed).


----------



## claytonHD

sregener,


I thgink you may be right. I put a variable attenuator in last night and it did not help at all. So I decided to try the $8 rabbit ears from WalMart. I watched 2 hours of 24 with no breakups. I tuned to all of the digital channels that are in the same location and they all came in fine with no break ups.


I may switch out the outdoor antenna to a less directional, or I may lust keep the rabbit ears. But I will say they look a little strange in my home theater!


----------



## jchas41

I need a lot of help! I am renting right now and the owners will not allow an outdoor antenna. I live between Syracuse and Utica and can receive about 12 analog stations from the two cities at my location. I am currently using an Amplified RCA indoor antenna. Unfortunately, the only digital signals I can get are ABC and WCNY. I am between 45 and 20 miles from the towers in the two cities. What can I do to improve reception? Should I change antennas, add a in-line amplifier? Please help, any recommendations? I know my set-up is not ideal. Thanks.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jchas41_
> *I am between 45 and 20 miles from the towers in the two cities. What can I do to improve reception? Should I change antennas, add a in-line amplifier?*



Skip the amplifier. They almost never help indoors. Also, your amplified antenna already has an amplifier in it.


I'd try a Zenith Silver Sensor antenna. They have gotten rave reviews from people who are using indoor antennas. I don't know if it'll get you anything at 45 miles, but it should be adequate for 20 miles.


Also, check this page for information on what your landlord can and can't restrict you from doing:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html


----------



## raycock

ClaytonHD,


Try the Channel Master 4 Bow Antenna and make sure that it is about roof line. You should be getting everything in fine. If not, let me know....


----------



## natlib

Anyone had any any experience or know anything about the Terk 32??? The Circuit City reviews are good, but are they real???


----------



## jaq

Any recommendations on the SS1000 Versus the CM4228?


I live in the Katy area and will install the antenna outside, but low (1st story). Fairly clean area - no close houses or dense tree interference. Will use about 100' of cable run.


I like the compactness of the square shooter, but I keep reading bigger is better. Any insight would be helpful.


----------



## greywolf

The 3# series are about the only decent Terk antenna's because they are built by Winegard and put performance ahead of looks. The downside is that Winegard's own antennas and other antennas by Channel Master et. al. are considerably less costly. Antennas that look like antennas and go for competitive prices are the way to go.


----------



## jstuck

Hey guys sorry to ask what may be a dumb question but i appreciate your responses. I have the Dish 811 receiver. First question is does this get OTA signals with the right antenna? Next, is whether any of you have any experience with the GE TV Max 6' antenna. Its a white bar that would be very low profile. I'm located in Tuscaloosa in a very open area. I live in a super restrictive subdivision and while i know the law allows me to put a larger antenna up, i'd rather have my neighbors' talk to my wife! Any help or suggestions would be great. Thanks in advance!!!


----------



## gawngulfing

Quick question. I replaced the balun on my antenna (i've posted a couple times now) still no signal. Believe you me, I'm not too excited about making more trips to the roof but I have a thought.


If I move my antenna to the ground (sill about 12 feet off the ground with the mount). Will I be able to pick up a signal 40 miles away on fairly even terrain? Stinking hights....


Oh yeah.. combo antenna about 100inches in length. about 75-100 foot run to hd stb.


Thanks.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gawngulfing_
> *Quick question. I replaced the balun on my antenna (i've posted a couple times now) still no signal. Believe you me, I'm not too excited about making more trips to the roof but I have a thought.
> 
> 
> If I move my antenna to the ground (sill about 12 feet off the ground with the mount). Will I be able to pick up a signal 40 miles away on fairly even terrain? Stinking hights....
> 
> 
> Oh yeah.. combo antenna about 100inches in length. about 75-100 foot run to hd stb.
> 
> 
> Thanks.*



I still think a good preamp would benefit you. What is your analog reception like from Wasau?


Sometimes lower is better for reception but more often higher is better. There's no way to know before you try. It would definitely give you access to the antenna which is crucial to experimentation.


Edit: Here's a link to the FCC info on the Wausau area: http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/...tion.asp?m=wau 

All your digitals are UHF as are the ones in Green Bay. 88 miles is really pushing it for UHF though. If the preamp doesn't work you may need to consider an antenna upgrade. The combo antennas typically won't perform as well on the UHF side as a dedicated UHF antenna will. The Antennasdirect XG91 is a good choice esp. if you're trying for the Green Bay stations. I can't recall if you have a rotor but you'll probably need that as well.


Finally, I'm assuming the STB you got off of ebay is a standard OTA tuner. Some satellite STB's require activation for the OTA section to work properly.


Also, if you haven't done so already, go to http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp and punch in your coordinates in decimal form for precise bearing to your towers. Aiming can be crucial which is another reason for a rotor when you're in the fringe. You'll have to go to the magnetic variation link as well. It's -4 here in KY but it should be slightly less (nearer to zero) where you are.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jstuck_
> *Hey guys sorry to ask what may be a dumb question but i appreciate your responses. I have the Dish 811 receiver. First question is does this get OTA signals with the right antenna? Next, is whether any of you have any experience with the GE TV Max 6' antenna. Its a white bar that would be very low profile. I'm located in Tuscaloosa in a very open area. I live in a super restrictive subdivision and while i know the law allows me to put a larger antenna up, i'd rather have my neighbors' talk to my wife! Any help or suggestions would be great. Thanks in advance!!!*



Yes it will receive OTA both digital and analog. I have an 811 also and it can be funny at times but once you get everything programmed in it will do a very good job on digitals.


As for the GE antenna can't say but most of the gimmicky antennas do not work well. If it looks like a Terk it proably is a Terk(GE branded) and they are very sub par. Give us your zip code and we can help you find an antenna which will work for you . Tuscaloosa Where? If it's AL here's your digitals you can get.


* yellow - uhf WVUA-DT 49 PAX TUSCALOO AL 05-05 322° 13.0 49

* green - vhf WCFT-DT 5.1 ABC TUSCALOOSA AL 15° 23.5 5

* lt green - uhf WBRC-DT 6.1 FOX BIRMINGHAM AL 62° 48.2 50

* blue - uhf WIAT-DT 42.1 CBS BIRMINGHAM AL 62° 47.6 30

* blue - uhf WVTM-DT 13.1 NBC BIRMINGHAM AL 62° 48.3 52

* violet - uhf WBIH-DT 29 WB SELMA AL 138° 57.8 29


Without an outdoor antenna I wouldn't hold much hope for Selma. Since you don't want an outside antenna you have 2 options.


option 1 -Get a Square shooter from Winegard and live with what you get. You'll still need a rotor or you'll only get Biringham. Channel 5 is low band VHF so it may or may not come in.


option 2 - Get a good UHF CM 4228 or DB4 from antennas direct and install in attic with a rotor. A 91xg antennas direct may be a better fit for the attic.


Here's some links to look at and get back with correct zip for me details.

http://www.antennasdirect.com/LongRangeAntennas.htm 

http://www.solidsignal.com/antennas/ 

http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm 

http://store.spectravox.us/hd7084p.html 

This is a combo VHF/UHF may work in attic.


Look around at these sights you'll learn a lot. Also take a look here.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gawngulfing_
> *Quick question. I replaced the balun on my antenna (i've posted a couple times now) still no signal. Believe you me, I'm not too excited about making more trips to the roof but I have a thought.
> 
> 
> If I move my antenna to the ground (sill about 12 feet off the ground with the mount). Will I be able to pick up a signal 40 miles away on fairly even terrain? Stinking hights....
> 
> 
> Oh yeah.. combo antenna about 100inches in length. about 75-100 foot run to hd stb.
> 
> 
> Thanks.*



That can only be answered by trying. Mine is about 15 feet of ground and I get 40 miles away but a lot of things to cosider. If I go to 10 feet I loose almost all but still get one or two. At least you can play with it and see if you can get anything at all.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jaq_
> *Any recommendations on the SS1000 Versus the CM4228?
> 
> 
> I live in the Katy area and will install the antenna outside, but low (1st story). Fairly clean area - no close houses or dense tree interference. Will use about 100' of cable run.
> 
> 
> I like the compactness of the square shooter, but I keep reading bigger is better. Any insight would be helpful.*



need your zip code. As a rule the 4228 will outperform the square shooter many times over.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by natlib_
> *Anyone had any any experience or know anything about the Terk 32??? The Circuit City reviews are good, but are they real???*



Unless you are on top of transmitter let the TERK antennas alone. They are under performers. There are much better choices. Give us a zip so we can help you out.


----------



## gawngulfing

I just rewired the rotor cable... (any one know what brand has a 5 conductor rotor wire?) and balun and RG6. Then remounted the antenna back onto the roof with a little engineering, now I can take it down whenever needed. Hopefully never again.


I'll test the signal and rotor controller tomorrow, bed time..


----------



## avramd

Hello,


I'm in what appears to be a new market for these forums, Newport, RI. We don't have our own stations, we're about 28 miles away from the Providence market. I live in a neighborhood where eyesores are not appreciated, so I'm trying to figure out of the SquareShooter is appropriate for my situation.


Newport is technically a "city," but I'm not sure if it is urban from the standpoint of antenna science. Basically every house anywhere near me is the same height as mine, 2 stories plus a half-height attic. Hills are sparse and short, not more than 200' high, and nearest one is about a mile away, but directly in the path to the stations. 95% of construction around here is wood with tar-shingled roof. As for housing density, most houses are about 20 feet away from each other side-to-side, and the transmitters are in the direction of the street, so nearest house that way is 40 feet, and same height or shorter. There are lots of trees though, mostly twice the height of the houses.


Can anyone advise whether the SS would be good for this environment - whether that hill will be a big problem - and how much amplification would be appropriate on the SS?


(note: I have searched and posted in the Providence local thread, but I seem to be the first person from Newport to post here).


Thanks!


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by avramd_
> *Hello,
> 
> 
> I'm in what appears to be a new market for these forums, Newport, RI. We don't have our own stations, we're about 28 miles away from the Providence market. I live in a neighborhood where eyesores are not appreciated, so I'm trying to figure out of the SquareShooter is appropriate for my situation.
> 
> 
> Newport is technically a "city," but I'm not sure if it is urban from the standpoint of antenna science. Basically every house anywhere near me is the same height as mine, 2 stories plus a half-height attic. Hills are sparse and short, not more than 200' high, and nearest one is about a mile away, but directly in the path to the stations. 95% of construction around here is wood with tar-shingled roof. As for housing density, most houses are about 20 feet away from each other side-to-side, and the transmitters are in the direction of the street, so nearest house that way is 40 feet, and same height or shorter. There are lots of trees though, mostly twice the height of the houses.
> 
> 
> Can anyone advise whether the SS would be good for this environment - whether that hill will be a big problem - and how much amplification would be appropriate on the SS?
> 
> 
> (note: I have searched and posted in the Providence local thread, but I seem to be the first person from Newport to post here).
> 
> 
> Thanks!*



Here's a little info on the effects of nearby structures: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html 


The trees may complicate things, otherwise if your stations are broadcasting with a reasonably high power level (i.e.; not putting out less power than a 100 watt light bulb),


----------



## jimc705

I agree with Doug. It will have to be outside and high. Sounds like a baseball pitcher. I'd get the 1000 for if you find you do need an amp then you get go as big as you need. 30 miles over relatively flat land shouldn't be to big a problem. Good Luck.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gawngulfing_
> *I just rewired the rotor cable... (any one know what brand has a 5 conductor rotor wire?) and balun and RG6. Then remounted the antenna back onto the roof with a little engineering, now I can take it down whenever needed. Hopefully never again.
> 
> 
> I'll test the signal and rotor controller tomorrow, bed time..*



CDE made 5 wire rotors around late 70's. They were very good units. Made them for very heavy antennas. I do not know if they are still in business. Thay also made electronic parts. Made in USA! don't hear that much anymore.


I thnink a lot of ham radio user antennas had 5 wire rotors so they may not be the only manfacturer. I worked for an electronic wholesaler and we sold a few of them. They weren't cheap but never had a return or complaint. They were extremely precise for the 70's. May be way they need 2 extra wires.


----------



## obsidian

Hello all,


I live in southwest Florida and would like to receive the FOX HD signal over-the-air. Here's the FCC map for coverage of this tower: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DT593967.html (I'm a little south of Bonita Springs in North Naples).


I live in a condominium association, so any antenna options outside are pretty much out of the question. However, our condominiums are 2 story and I'm upstairs, so I might be able to mount something in the attic. Any suggestions for an antenna, specifically to pick up WFTX FOX HD? I've been looking at some Wingard antennas like the SquareShooter but think 40 miles might be a little much for it.


Any feedback or tips are greatly appreciated!


----------



## avramd

Obsidian, There are numerous links which explain that it is illegal for an owner's association (or anyone else) to prevent you from putting up an antenna to receive public video broadcasts. The only stipulation is that it has to be necessary, in other words, if your reception is fine without it then you don't need it. But if you reception isn't good w/ the attic antenna, then go for the roof.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by obsidian_
> *Hello all,
> 
> 
> I live in southwest Florida and would like to receive the FOX HD signal over-the-air. Here's the FCC map for coverage of this tower: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DT593967.html (I'm a little south of Bonita Springs in North Naples).
> 
> 
> I live in a condominium association, so any antenna options outside are pretty much out of the question. However, our condominiums are 2 story and I'm upstairs, so I might be able to mount something in the attic. Any suggestions for an antenna, specifically to pick up WFTX FOX HD? I've been looking at some Wingard antennas like the SquareShooter but think 40 miles might be a little much for it.
> 
> 
> Any feedback or tips are greatly appreciated!*



I personally go with a antennas direct 91xg. It's a fairly small UHF yagi at channel 35 it should perform well. It is extremely directional which will help any multipath problems caused by placing in the attic. You can try it out and return for a full refund if it doesn't work. It should be an easier antenna to place in an attic.


The only other antenna I think will work in the attic (at your distance) is a Channel Master 4228 or antennas direct DB8. The DB 8 has a little better gain and again a refund if it doesn't work. However the CM is about half the price. You may want a rotor if you want stations more then 20 degree beamwidth for that is the max beamwidth of these antennas. They fall off rapidly beyond the 20 degrees.


If one of these don't get it you are finished. It's outside or none. outside the 91xg will pick up reliable digitals further then 70 miles. Mine does and over some fairly large mountains. Good Luck.

http://www.antennasdirect.com/LongRangeAntennas.htm 
http://www.solidsignal.com/antennas/


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jaq_
> *Any recommendations on the SS1000 Versus the CM4228?
> 
> 
> I live in the Katy area and will install the antenna outside, but low (1st story). Fairly clean area - no close houses or dense tree interference. Will use about 100' of cable run.
> 
> 
> I like the compactness of the square shooter, but I keep reading bigger is better. Any insight would be helpful.*



If that is Katy, TX than give me a call. I will be in the station Thurs


Bob Chase

KHWB-TV

713-435-2860


----------



## avramd

I can't seem to find any discussions here about different types & styles of mounting brackets, and where to get them.


My situation is a little unusual - There is less obstruction from the edge of my roof than from the peak, so a chimney, tripod, or peak mount will put me behind a tree.


I don't have a tall enough eave to do a strong eave mount, and unfortunately, my eave extends more than 12" past the outer wall. 12" is the biggest wall stand-off mast bracket that I could find (Radio Shack had it).


So, I either need a tripod mount that can have adjustable lengths, and thus be vertical from just one side of my roof, a special type of mount I've never heard of that is designed to be on an angle, or a standoff wall mount that is good for >14".


Sorry if this is the wrong place for this, please point me the right way if so... I did search the reception hardware forum.


----------



## tshaff09

Radio Shack has several varieties.


----------



## avramd

I've gone through all of RS's mounts. None of them work for me. Their stand-off wall mounts don't reach past my eave. Chimeny is obstructed, as is eave peak.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by avramd_
> *I've gone through all of RS's mounts. None of them work for me. Their stand-off wall mounts don't reach past my eave. Chimeny is obstructed, as is eave peak.*



Look here: http://www.tvantenna.com/products/tv...lbrackets.html 


Also, the Channel Master 9036 is 18 inches. It's available from starkelectronics.com.
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmmatv.htm#hard 

The next post is a pic of my mount. I used a CM 30 ft. telescoping mast and installed it upside down (available at Lowe's).


----------



## cpcat

Here's my ground mount:

My eave is 17 inches and I used the CM 9036.


----------



## gawngulfing

OK. Thanks to everyone that has lended me their suggestions thus far. I have a combo antenna about a 135 foot run ( i know this better now).


I just rewired the rotor, works great. I just ran new RG6 STB to Antenna and a new Balun at the antenna.


Still no signal. When I had the antenna down I noticed one of the tines, don't know the real term, had been cable tied down to the rest of the antenna. I am willing to conclude that my antenna is crap.


This means, I need to look at my options. I have read many posts now about suggestions of CM4228 and and antennas direct 91XG. I've seen suggestions of the CM 7777 amp but I seem only to find CM 7775 to buy online. All my local digitals are UHF, non are VHF. I have two major sources for reception. Wausau WI (39 miles) and Green Bay WI (89 miles). Green Bay has 5 digital stations where wausau only has 2 and GB tower is putting out 1000 Kwz.


What setup would you suggest to attempt to pull GB from my house. Quite flat terrain inbetween. Antenna is about 35 feet of the ground. I have about 135 feet of cable from antenna to STB.


Lastly, my rotor is a 5 conductor wire (1 silver, 4 copper). Any idea where I can get more wire for this? Or can someone suggest a rotor that will work and not break the bank?


Thanks. I'd love it if I could stay below $150 for antenna and amp and I know rotor would really be pushing it.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gawngulfing_
> *OK. Thanks to everyone that has lended me their suggestions thus far. I have a combo antenna about a 135 foot run ( i know this better now).
> 
> 
> I just rewired the rotor, works great. I just ran new RG6 STB to Antenna and a new Balun at the antenna.
> 
> 
> Still no signal. When I had the antenna down I noticed one of the tines, don't know the real term, had been cable tied down to the rest of the antenna. I am willing to conclude that my antenna is crap.
> 
> 
> This means, I need to look at my options. I have read many posts now about suggestions of CM4228 and and antennas direct 91XG. I've seen suggestions of the CM 7777 amp but I seem only to find CM 7775 to buy online. All my local digitals are UHF, non are VHF. I have two major sources for reception. Wausau WI (39 miles) and Green Bay WI (89 miles). Green Bay has 5 digital stations where wausau only has 2 and GB tower is putting out 1000 Kwz.
> 
> 
> What setup would you suggest to attempt to pull GB from my house. Quite flat terrain inbetween. Antenna is about 35 feet of the ground. I have about 135 feet of cable from antenna to STB.
> 
> 
> Lastly, my rotor is a 5 conductor wire (1 silver, 4 copper). Any idea where I can get more wire for this? Or can someone suggest a rotor that will work and not break the bank?
> 
> 
> Thanks. I'd love it if I could stay below $150 for antenna and amp and I know rotor would really be pushing it.*



CM7777: http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/7777.htm 

CM4228: http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4228.htm 

CM9521A: http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/9521A.htm 


There's nothing really special about the cable for your existing rotator; any 5-conductor cable that's maybe 22ga or bigger could be used. I'd expect Home Depot would have something. Stranded conductor would be better, but thermostat cable would work -- it's usually 5 conductors, though solid conductor.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gawngulfing_
> *OK. Thanks to everyone that has lended me their suggestions thus far. I have a combo antenna about a 135 foot run ( i know this better now).
> 
> 
> I just rewired the rotor, works great. I just ran new RG6 STB to Antenna and a new Balun at the antenna.
> 
> 
> Still no signal. When I had the antenna down I noticed one of the tines, don't know the real term, had been cable tied down to the rest of the antenna. I am willing to conclude that my antenna is crap.
> 
> 
> This means, I need to look at my options. I have read many posts now about suggestions of CM4228 and and antennas direct 91XG. I've seen suggestions of the CM 7777 amp but I seem only to find CM 7775 to buy online. All my local digitals are UHF, non are VHF. I have two major sources for reception. Wausau WI (39 miles) and Green Bay WI (89 miles). Green Bay has 5 digital stations where wausau only has 2 and GB tower is putting out 1000 Kwz.
> 
> 
> What setup would you suggest to attempt to pull GB from my house. Quite flat terrain inbetween. Antenna is about 35 feet of the ground. I have about 135 feet of cable from antenna to STB.
> 
> 
> Lastly, my rotor is a 5 conductor wire (1 silver, 4 copper). Any idea where I can get more wire for this? Or can someone suggest a rotor that will work and not break the bank?
> 
> 
> Thanks. I'd love it if I could stay below $150 for antenna and amp and I know rotor would really be pushing it.*



The CM 7777 is also available at SolidSignal.com. The difference is the 7777 has a vhf section which may be smart to have as some of your stations may switch in the future. The performance on UHF is the same.


The XG91 would be my recc. as I said. I'd stay away from the 4228 if you plan on a rotor. It's heavy and too much wind load for the CM rotor.


You'll only need 3 conductor wire with the CM rotor (rotor available at Lowe's, but I think they have only 50 ft. lengths of the wire so you'll have to order it online). Again, Solidsignal, Stark, Warren, etc. You have to be careful about using too small of guage especially where it's cold (like in Wisconsin). The CM wire is 20 g I think. Phone wire is too small, I'm not sure about thermostat wire.


----------



## jimc705

I go with the 91xg. I believe it has a little better long distance performance then the 4228 not to metion a lot lighter. Cost delivered around $90. I'd also get the 7777 amp for you may want or need to add VHF later and a flip of the switch your ready, about $60. As for the rotor new 9521a Channel Master will run about $80 plus wire right at $100. The advatage of the new rotor is it's digital and can remeber where you stations are and be programmed to recall them. It's also infared remote so you don't need to get up and turn the antenna. However if you are only going to have 2 positions to remeber you'll probably be staying on the Green Bay stations for the Wausau are probably the same networks.

Good Luck antennasdirect.com for 91xg. any of the others CP metioned for rotor or amp.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gawngulfing_
> *What setup would you suggest to attempt to pull GB from my house.*



At 90 miles, you're pushing the limits of UHF signal propagation. Even over flat terrain. If you haven't read my story (and you probably have) I'd suggest you read it at:
http://www.geocities.com/figbert/ant...irect91xg.html 


You're going to be somewhat dependent on things you have no control over. Things like weather. Heat. Obstructions (leaves) at the horizon. All of these are going to make or break you, and what works one day may not work the next. I get many stations at 75 miles, with no line-of-sight, but there are nights when they breakup every few minutes and I lose signal lock for up to 30 seconds at a time. Followed by 5-10 minutes of perfect signal, then another loss. During sports, this is somewhat acceptable. During a sitcom or drama, it's not. Then, there are days where I can point the antenna 30 degrees off the signal, and I can't get a single artifact.


To get the best reception you can, I'd strongly suggest an AntennasDirect 91XG. They have great performance across the UHF spectrum and are lightweight (8 lbs) with relatively low wind load. You probably can't buy a better long-distance UHF antenna. Add in a CM7777 preamp (don't get the 7775 as it will *block* VHF signals, which you may want if some of those stations revert to their VHF frequencies after the analog shutoff.) Try to shorten the length of your cable run. Get the antenna as high up as you can. Then cross your fingers and see what you get.


I wouldn't replace your rotor (or it's wire, for that matter) if it's working well for you. My CM9521A went bad after just 2 years (note: it did some incredible load work when I had a Winegard 8200P on it.) The remote-control option is nice, though.


----------



## jchas41

I need more help please! My zip code is 13440. I am currently using a RCA 1250 amplified indoor antenna and am just barely pulling the ABC-DT (9.1) HD station at 40 miles away. I cannot get CBS or NBC at 44 miles. I am limited to an indoor antenna or a VERY discreet outdoor antenna. I am thinking of trying the Silver Sensor again or waiting for the sharpshooter to be released. Any ideas?


----------



## gawngulfing




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *At 90 miles, you're pushing the limits of UHF signal propagation. Even over flat terrain. If you haven't read my story (and you probably have) I'd suggest you read it at:
> http://www.geocities.com/figbert/ant...irect91xg.html
> 
> *



Great article, found it very helpful. Thanks everyone. Looks like it's time for the 7777 and the 91XG.


----------



## gawngulfing

sregener - Out of curiosity, and if you don't mind me asking, how much did it cost to put up the tower itself?


Thanks


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jchas41_
> *I am limited to an indoor antenna or a VERY discreet outdoor antenna. I am thinking of trying the Silver Sensor again or waiting for the sharpshooter to be released. Any ideas?*



You could try a SquareShooter (Winegard SS-1000) which might work okay outdoors. Or you could try a DB8/DB4/DB2 indoors (they'll all work indoors, get the biggest one you can fit in your indoor location.)


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gawngulfing_
> *sregener - Out of curiosity, and if you don't mind me asking, how much did it cost to put up the tower itself?*



Hard to say for sure, since I traded some equipment, had some equipment, and bought it used. All told, it was $900, so if you knock off the equipment I purchased, probably $700-$800. I paid $100 just for them to dig the hole (3'x3'x6') which would be a bear this time of year (I had it done before the frost.) So you could save even more if you can find one used and do a little grunt work yourself.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jchas41_
> *I need more help please! My zip code is 13440. I am currently using a RCA 1250 amplified indoor antenna and am just barely pulling the ABC-DT (9.1) HD station at 40 miles away. I cannot get CBS or NBC at 44 miles. I am limited to an indoor antenna or a VERY discreet outdoor antenna. I am thinking of trying the Silver Sensor again or waiting for the sharpshooter to be released. Any ideas?*



I'd go with the Winegard square shooter if you can put it outside. It's small and the WAF should be good 40 miles is about all it will do you may have to add an amp. All your digitals are UHF and less then 45 miles. Any stadard outdoor UHF antenna will get all your digitals plus some extras more then likely. UHF outdoor antennas are small and light and once install you'll barely notice it. However if you can't put anything outside this is just about the best UHF indoor and is very cheap.

http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...%5Fid=930-0998 


Square shooter see this link.
http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm 


I think the radio shack may be special order only. 40 miles is pushing it for an indoor antenna. Good Luck.


----------



## d33bo

Guys, I need help. I live in Roanoke, VA 24020 with no mountains or anything between me and the and the towers. Antenna web says i am 15 miles from the antenna's all in the same direction, yet I can't pull in anything. I cannot use an outdoor antenna because of our townhouse, so I am trying indoor antennas.

I tried the Silver Sensor and could pull in 7.1 if I held the antenna up in the air out the window (not in the direction antenna web suggested), but couldn't pull in anything else.

I just tried an amplified Radio Shack 15-1870 Indoor Signal Finder. You can rotate it around with the remote control. I can't pick up anything!!

I have a new Sony 42" HDTV built in TV that I am using. when I do channel scans, it pulls in some stations but they don't come in when I turn to those stations.

I can only assume I am doing something wrong. Any suggestions?

Thanks!!


----------



## Andrew_J_M

d33bo


What is the orientation of your block of townhouses in relation to the transmiter? In other words, is the signal coming through your neighbors houses?

On which floor are you trying to site the antenna?

Do you have access to the loft space? If you can get a Radio Shack yagi or any small antenna in there you should get a better signal. Temporarily you could drop a coax from your loft to the TV and try pointing the antenna manually. When you find the best position fix it permanently - just hanging from cords is normally OK - and run the cable either outside or through the walls.


Good Luck


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by d33bo_
> *I cannot use an outdoor antenna because of our townhouse, so I am trying indoor antennas.
> 
> ...when I do channel scans, it pulls in some stations but they don't come in when I turn to those stations.
> 
> I can only assume I am doing something wrong. Any suggestions?*



First, are you sure you can't put up an antenna? See:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html 


Second, amplification at 15 miles is never going to work. Skip anything that says "amplifier" or "amplified" on it.


If you *have* to go indoors, get the AntennasDirect DB2. It has a great reputation, and just might do the trick for you.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/g...yG.html#indoor 


Finally, you ask what you're doing wrong. Probably using the wrong type of antenna is the only thing you're doing wrong. When you do a channel scan, the receiver probably can figure out that there's a digital signal there, but not enough to "lock on" and show you a picture.


----------



## d33bo




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Andrew_J_M_
> *d33bo
> 
> 
> What is the orientation of your block of townhouses in relation to the transmiter? In other words, is the signal coming through your neighbors houses?
> 
> On which floor are you trying to site the antenna?
> 
> Do you have access to the loft space? If you can get a Radio Shack yagi or any small antenna in there you should get a better signal. Temporarily you could drop a coax from your loft to the TV and try pointing the antenna manually. When you find the best position fix it permanently - just hanging from cords is normally OK - and run the cable either outside or through the walls.
> 
> 
> Good Luck*



I have to go straight through our row of townhouse. I on the east end and have to point the antenna west.

I am using it on the bottom floor.

I might be able to get to the loft space. I haven't tried it yet, but it is starting to look like I may have to try.


----------



## avramd

It sounds to me like you need to go rooftop, and the only thing stopping you from doing that is the fact that you don't own the top floor.


If I were you, I would do one of the following:


1) Try to convince an adjacent neighbor who is on the 2nd floor to let you put an antenna up on his roof.

1a) Offer to put a splitter in and send him the signal from it too, for if/when he decides to go HD


2) Threaten to put up a tower in whatever patch of grass you have usage rights too, if they don't cooperate and let you put an antenna on the roof.


In particular, everybody in your building presumably has the same lack of HD programming that you do. It must be that at least some of them would be interested in getting it, or getting it for free if the cable co. is charging too much for it. You only need one antenna to service everyone in the same general structure, there ought to be people willing to cooperate on this.


----------



## d33bo




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *First, are you sure you can't put up an antenna? See:
> http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html
> 
> 
> Second, amplification at 15 miles is never going to work. Skip anything that says "amplifier" or "amplified" on it.
> 
> 
> If you *have* to go indoors, get the AntennasDirect DB2. It has a great reputation, and just might do the trick for you.
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/g...yG.html#indoor
> 
> 
> Finally, you ask what you're doing wrong. Probably using the wrong type of antenna is the only thing you're doing wrong. When you do a channel scan, the receiver probably can figure out that there's a digital signal there, but not enough to "lock on" and show you a picture.*



That was interesting reading. I may be able to go with something in the patio area. The university pays for this townhouse for us, so I don't want to wrinkle any feathers. But I may look into it if the indoor stuff doesn't work.


As far as the amplification, I didn't even know this antenna had it when I picked it out at Radio Shack. It looked like the most advanced one they had in the store, so I chose it. Then I noticed that it had the amplification when I got the box, and I figured that it couldn't hurt.


I will check into that antenna DB2 as well.


Thanks for the replies so far. It is good to know that I just need the right antenna. I was getting worried that it was something else that I was totally missing.


----------



## d33bo

I could get to the roof but I don't think the university is going to approve. The neighbors don't care. I have a German exchange student next door that isn't interested in TV. Also, it is a women's university (my wife works here) so HD isn't really on their list of priorities.


I may try the loft and see if that works. I thought that being 15 miles aiming accross the flattest part of town would have made this pretty easy.

I have to get FOX before the Super Bowl!!!!!


----------



## jchas41

yeah, I am hearing a lot about the squareshooter. I actually was able to pull CBS 5.1 from Syracuse for a while yesterday as well, so I think I have pretty good reception considering that is 44 miles away and I have an indoor antenna! What squareshooter should I be considering, the 1000 or 2000? Thanks.


----------



## jscuras

What signal strengths are best for low band and high band channels? I was told by a Comcast ER technicial that my low band signal was too high, thus corrupting my low band reception.


I am getting:


14.3 High band and

20-22.3 low band


The ER Tech stated I should be getting


11.3 - 12.5 low band and

14.4 to 16.8 high band


Then, today the line tech he ordered after 5 months of trying, told me that was not true and that I have a flat 20 Db signal and the 6412 box I have should correct the reduce the signal to the appropriate level. I get the feeling Comcast does not want to admit this is a challenge and thus I keep getting the run around. They might need to install a line filter and then an amplifer to boost the high band and that would cost them $$$.


1) What are the optimal band signal strengths?

2) What signal amplification solutions are there available?

3) How do I disputre this with Comcast?


Thanks in advance.


----------



## Johnster

Hi!


Wonder if anyone can help me out with this.


I recently got myself a MyHD for my HTPC and I'm very pleased with it. I had to get a big Channel Master (3818?) antenna though for OTA HDTV as I'm pretty far out in Maryland to pick up the Washington DC based HDTV OTA stations. I mounted the antenna on my roof (ranch) and pointed it in the best direction I could figure out based on the antennaweb information about the station directions.


The signal on most of the stations that I can receive is normally at least 60% and ofter up to 90+%. I figured I had achieved success!


However..maddeningly..if it's rainy, foggy, drizzly, etc..my signal drops to almost nothing across the board.


What's going on? Do I have some sort of short in my coax cable? Is my ground setup (have ground from the antenna run from a grounding block via unsheathed copper to a grounding rod about 40 feet away) incorrect? Is this one of those "multipath" problems?


I'm stumped. Any insights would be much appreciated.


Thanks!


----------



## mws6468




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by d33bo_
> *I could get to the roof but I don't think the university is going to approve. The neighbors don't care. I have a German exchange student next door that isn't interested in TV. Also, it is a women's university (my wife works here) so HD isn't really on their list of priorities.
> 
> 
> I may try the loft and see if that works. I thought that being 15 miles aiming accross the flattest part of town would have made this pretty easy.
> 
> I have to get FOX before the Super Bowl!!!!!*



Just feel lucky that you have a chance at getting FOX, those of us here in KC dont get enough power from the local FOX to pick it up OTA


----------



## d33bo

The more I've thought about this, I don't know how I am going to put an antenna in the loft or outside. Somehow, I have to get the wires to the TV and I can't alter the walls. I guess I am stuck with something that must stay near the TV.

So I guess I need suggestions that are better than the Silver Sensor that didn't work well or the Radio Shack model that really sucked.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by d33bo_
> *The more I've thought about this, I don't know how I am going to put an antenna in the loft or outside. Somehow, I have to get the wires to the TV and I can't alter the walls. I guess I am stuck with something that must stay near the TV.
> 
> So I guess I need suggestions that are better than the Silver Sensor that didn't work well or the Radio Shack model that really sucked.*



You could use the same flat coax cable sold for satellite dish purposes to get through a closed window or sliding door.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Johnster_
> *Hi!
> 
> 
> Wonder if anyone can help me out with this.
> 
> 
> I recently got myself a MyHD for my HTPC and I'm very pleased with it. I had to get a big Channel Master (3818?) antenna though for OTA HDTV as I'm pretty far out in Maryland to pick up the Washington DC based HDTV OTA stations. I mounted the antenna on my roof (ranch) and pointed it in the best direction I could figure out based on the antennaweb information about the station directions.
> 
> 
> The signal on most of the stations that I can receive is normally at least 60% and ofter up to 90+%. I figured I had achieved success!
> 
> 
> However..maddeningly..if it's rainy, foggy, drizzly, etc..my signal drops to almost nothing across the board.
> 
> 
> What's going on? Do I have some sort of short in my coax cable? Is my ground setup (have ground from the antenna run from a grounding block via unsheathed copper to a grounding rod about 40 feet away) incorrect? Is this one of those "multipath" problems?
> 
> 
> I'm stumped. Any insights would be much appreciated.*



You need to adjust the antenna position while viewing each channel to find the best position. Just aiming like you have might not be the best position.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Johnster_
> *Hi!
> 
> 
> Wonder if anyone can help me out with this.
> 
> 
> I recently got myself a MyHD for my HTPC and I'm very pleased with it. I had to get a big Channel Master (3818?) antenna though for OTA HDTV as I'm pretty far out in Maryland to pick up the Washington DC based HDTV OTA stations. I mounted the antenna on my roof (ranch) and pointed it in the best direction I could figure out based on the antennaweb information about the station directions.
> 
> 
> The signal on most of the stations that I can receive is normally at least 60% and ofter up to 90+%. I figured I had achieved success!
> 
> 
> However..maddeningly..if it's rainy, foggy, drizzly, etc..my signal drops to almost nothing across the board.
> 
> 
> What's going on? Do I have some sort of short in my coax cable? Is my ground setup (have ground from the antenna run from a grounding block via unsheathed copper to a grounding rod about 40 feet away) incorrect? Is this one of those "multipath" problems?
> 
> 
> I'm stumped. Any insights would be much appreciated.
> 
> 
> Thanks!*



All coax connections must be of the waterproof variety.Check all connections for moisture intrusion.Any moisture at all will kill UHF,especially the higher frequencies.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jchas41_
> *yeah, I am hearing a lot about the squareshooter. I actually was able to pull CBS 5.1 from Syracuse for a while yesterday as well, so I think I have pretty good reception considering that is 44 miles away and I have an indoor antenna! What squareshooter should I be considering, the 1000 or 2000? Thanks.*



I'd go with the 1000. It doesn't have an amp. The 2000 has an amp but it is very low gain and you are stuck with it like it or not. The 1000 if the antenna needs a boost you can add any size preamp you need. People here have put a CM 7777 with 28 db gain and have had excellent results. If you find you don't need an amp then you put the bucks you saved in your pocket.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Johnster_
> *Hi!
> 
> 
> Wonder if anyone can help me out with this.
> 
> 
> I recently got myself a MyHD for my HTPC and I'm very pleased with it. I had to get a big Channel Master (3818?) antenna though for OTA HDTV as I'm pretty far out in Maryland to pick up the Washington DC based HDTV OTA stations. I mounted the antenna on my roof (ranch) and pointed it in the best direction I could figure out based on the antennaweb information about the station directions.
> 
> 
> The signal on most of the stations that I can receive is normally at least 60% and ofter up to 90+%. I figured I had achieved success!
> 
> 
> However..maddeningly..if it's rainy, foggy, drizzly, etc..my signal drops to almost nothing across the board.
> 
> 
> What's going on? Do I have some sort of short in my coax cable? Is my ground setup (have ground from the antenna run from a grounding block via unsheathed copper to a grounding rod about 40 feet away) incorrect? Is this one of those "multipath" problems?
> 
> 
> I'm stumped. Any insights would be much appreciated.
> 
> 
> Thanks!*



You don't mention where you are? I used to live in Maryland. The DC stations carry about 60 miles fairly well. I'd double check the conections on the antenna make sure they are water tight and have a boot over them. Sounds like you grounded correctly. Try to aim your antenna again. I know most people up there try to split the difference to get DC and Baltimore stations. Under normal weather that will work but bad weather and digital just isn't happy. You may need a rotor if you find this to be the case.

You could also get a seperate UHF which will give you a much stronger signal for the digital channels then the 3018. Combos are more likely to have problems with rain snow and like. When it rains here my digital signals go up 10 points on the UHF but on my combo they drop 10 to 20 points and sometimes gone all together.


----------



## rldud

I have really lost it this time. I posted several new threads in the HDTV section without knowing what I was doing. Anyway, I need some help with our local Fox station that is broadcasting their HD signal at 1kw ERP. Would it be posible to receive this signal about 10-12 miles away? They say the antenna is 100 feet high.I have been using rabbit ear antennas in the attic, but am considering a good antenna to receive the low power Fox signal. I just don't lnow if I will be able to get the signal with a quality antenna. Please help.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by rldud_
> *I have really lost it this time. I posted several new threads in the HDTV section without knowing what I was doing. Anyway, I need some help with our local Fox station that is broadcasting their HD signal at 1kw ERP. Would it be posible to receive this signal about 10-12 miles away? They say the antenna is 100 feet high.I have been using rabbit ear antennas in the attic, but am considering a good antenna to receive the low power Fox signal. I just don't lnow if I will be able to get the signal with a quality antenna. Please help.*



It will depend a lot on what frequency it's broadcast on; the lower the channel, the less power is needed to transmit and achieve decent range, and what the terrain is like between the transmitter and your antenna.


I'm able to receive a station about 30 miles away in NYC that's on VHF12 and only broadcasting at 125 watts using a Channel Master 4228 antenna and a Channel Master 7777 preamp in my attic. First it's a UHF antenna, so VHF12 just manages to work OK since it's close to the UHF band, and second, being in the attic attenuates the signal pretty significantly versus it being outdoors. I also have nothign between the transmitter and my antenna -- the path is almost entirely over water.


If it were 1Kw on an upper UHF channel, you'd be pushing your luck, I think. But if it's VHF or lower UHF, you may have a chance.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Johnster_
> *However..maddeningly..if it's rainy, foggy, drizzly, etc..my signal drops to almost nothing across the board.*



You don't say how far away you are, and if you have theoretical line-of-sight. For me, even with properly weathered connections, I lose some long-distance stations during rain events. UHF does attenuate slightly in water. However, due to my extreme distance (Sings: Somewhere, over the hor-i-zon... Way out there...) I rely exclusively on tropospheric scatter to get signals. Scatter is definitely weakened by rain.


I'd check those connections, and check the aim. If you hold your fist out at arm's length, it marks about 10 degrees. Trying to eyeball for a 1-degree location is hard. Not impossible, but very hard. Use a cell phone and talk to somebody who's watching the signal meters while you're turning the antenna.


----------



## rldud

The signal is UHF, the assigned frequency is 57, and the terrain is fairly flat with a few small hills, so I guess from your message it would be a long shot to receive it. Another question, does Radio Shack have any good antennas? I looked at their selections, and the employee was trying to tell me their HD antenna with built in amplifier was the one I needed. Oh and by the way, he also told me that it was the one needed for HD broadcasts. He seemed a little suprised when I told him I was using rabbit ears and was receiving HD just fine on the other channels. Thanks for the info.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by rldud_
> *The signal is UHF, the assigned frequency is 57, and the terrain is fairly flat with a few small hills, so I guess from your message it would be a long shot to receive it. Another question, does Radio Shack have any good antennas? I looked at their selections, and the employee was trying to tell me their HD antenna with built in amplifier was the one I needed. Oh and by the way, he also told me that it was the one needed for HD broadcasts. He seemed a little suprised when I told him I was using rabbit ears and was receiving HD just fine on the other channels. Thanks for the info.*



The HD designation on antennas is a marketing gimmick.


The only differences with older antennas is that the UHF top end has changed over the years, so antennas changed with it since they don't need to receive up to UHF84 anymore; UHF69 is the top end thus the antenna design would be altered so as to optimize for the new range.


Any normal-looking multi-element VHF/UHF or UHF Yagi Radio Shack antenna should be fine (I've seen reports that these are usually just rebranded antennas made by others anyway); anything looking a little odd I would question. I wouldn't use a preamp from Radio Shack; no published specs and lots of reports of high noise levels -- so if one of their antennas has a built-in preamp, I'd want to know who's really making it. Use a Channel Master or Winegard preamp if you need a preamp.


One of the best UHF-only antennas is the Channel Master 4228. Unless you need low or mid VHF, I wouldn't start with anything else. You can easily get it online from places like www.warrenelectronics.com or www.solidsignal.com in just a few days. Lowes often has Channel Master antennas, too -- though not sure if the 4228 is something they carry.


Yeah, I think channel 57 would be a long shot. Frankly it wouldn't stop me from trying to get it though.







A 4228 with a 7777 preamp, on a 9521A rotator and mounted outside, as high as you can get but at least above the roofline would give you the best chance. One other variable is that where you put the antenna can still make a difference, but you have to start somewhere.


----------



## Bill Millar

I live in Wichita Falls, texas area and I have a model 4248 channel master antennae. I pick up Sherman, Tx which is 107 miles away every night of the week and also pick up some of the Dallas stationsbut not all the time, Dallas is 130 miles from where I live, but where I live in Texas is flat so that is probably one of the reasons I get out as far as I do. My antennae is 10 feet above the roof, the stations I am talking about are digital uhf I am picking up not analog.



Bill


----------



## Rocker74




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by rldud_
> *The signal is UHF, the assigned frequency is 57, and the terrain is fairly flat with a few small hills, so I guess from your message it would be a long shot to receive it. Another question, does Radio Shack have any good antennas? I looked at their selections, and the employee was trying to tell me their HD antenna with built in amplifier was the one I needed. Oh and by the way, he also told me that it was the one needed for HD broadcasts. He seemed a little suprised when I told him I was using rabbit ears and was receiving HD just fine on the other channels. Thanks for the info.*



I use the radio shack uhf only outdoor antenna. It's less that $25 and I can get all of my locals from 70 miles away. I don't know about the stations broadcast power, but the highest frequency I use is 56 (CBS).


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by rldud_
> *The signal is UHF, the assigned frequency is 57, and the terrain is fairly flat with a few small hills, so I guess from your message it would be a long shot to receive it. Another question, does Radio Shack have any good antennas? I looked at their selections, and the employee was trying to tell me their HD antenna with built in amplifier was the one I needed. Oh and by the way, he also told me that it was the one needed for HD broadcasts. He seemed a little suprised when I told him I was using rabbit ears and was receiving HD just fine on the other channels. Thanks for the info.*



You should have a shot at it. See http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...DS752055.html. You're well within the converage area for 1 kw.


Actually, the 4228 has less gain at channel 57 than pretty much any large yagi/corner reflector. I'd suggest the Antennasdirect XG 91. The 4228 will do *better* on the lower channels while the Yagi will favor the upper. Also, I wouldn't recc. the 4228 for the 9521a rotor outdoors. It's too heavy and has too much wind load. Finally, use at least RG6 coax and try to keep your cable run as short as possible. If you have >75 ft. consider a preamp but you'll need lower gain as close in as you are or you may run into overload from other stations. Lower gain also means higher headroom and signal handling. Maybe the 16 db gain preamp from Antennasdirect or something similar.


----------



## Rack

 http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 

You can see the Yagi type antennas outgain the 8-bay setups in the Net Gain UHF category by a couple DB. The XG91 has a gain pattern similar to the DAT75, so it would be a good choice.


My antenna: http://www.starkelectronic.com/del937.htm 

has similar gain (since it has the VU-8PZ addon) to the XG91, but it's gigantic due to the VHF section, and like 3 times as much.

Curse you, VHF-lo!


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Rack_
> * http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
> 
> You can see the Yagi type antennas outgain the 8-bay setups in the Net Gain UHF category by a couple DB. The XG91 has a gain pattern similar to the DAT75, so it would be a good choice.*



Those are simulated gains; not real-world measurements.


----------



## sf49ersnfl

Iam using a silver sensor and can only get my local cbs at 25-30%(it is 45 miles away operating at 21kw in El Paso Texas) and my family will not let me put up an outdoor antenna. Do you guys have any tricks that can help me get a better signal perhaps for tin foil would help? I already am using a 12db amplifier a rg6 25ft coax cable and a philips 5 ft coax gold. Thanks in advance! Oh and my tv seems to be picking up signals at 40%


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Rack_
> * http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
> 
> You can see the Yagi type antennas outgain the 8-bay setups in the Net Gain UHF category by a couple DB.*



Generally true above around channel 40. Below 40 the 8-bay is probably the better choice if the installation will allow for the weight and wind load.


----------



## black_macleod

Greets!


Currently I'm using a Silver Sensor antennae with my LG-4200a OTA receiver. My reception is really good, except for two things. First, I only get PBS occasionally, which isnt a huge deal. Second, I live near a train track, and whenever trains go by I lose signal on some channels (I'm assuming this is a multi-path issue.)


My question is, I'm turning off my dishnet sat to save cash as I don't really watch that much Sat tv anymore. So I was thinking of putting a Squareshooter 1000 on the current dishnet mount on the house. Do you all think this will help the signal loss, or should I just stick with what I have?


Oh yea, I live in St. Louis, in the city, so I'm getting most everything I'm supposed to, except the above mentioned PBS feed and UPN. Actually getting the PBS all the time would help with the channel guide 


Cheers


----------



## olyeller

Agree that the Bowtie 8 bay is much better in gain from about 14 - 40. I tried the cm 4228 8 bay and the winegard 9032 yagi here in tyler tx for ch 18 and 22. The bowtie gets about 3 to 4 more bars on the SIR-T151. Also, the winegard 8780 preamp was a lot better than the cm 7777. Has anyone tried the winegard 8880? I am in a deep fringe area and need all the gain I can get.


----------



## AdamE

Maybe this is redundant, even downright dumb, but how about an aesthetically pleasing good antenna? I just redid my home, got a HDTV w the direct TV hr10-250 tivo rec.....I need an OTA for the superbowl but dont want to put a monster 1950s antenna on my rooftop....Help







?


----------



## black_macleod

the squareshooter is pretty aesthetically pleasing


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by olyeller_
> *Also, the winegard 8780 preamp was a lot better than the cm 7777. Has anyone tried the winegard 8880? I am in a deep fringe area and need all the gain I can get.*



If you're using the SIRT-151 for estimating potential, you have a small problem. The 151's meter uses a matrixed signal strength/signal quality meter, and increasing noise will cause the signal meter to go up, even if signal quality declines. I used an indoor 40db amplifier with it on local stations and even though the meter read much higher (almost all the way to the top of the scale) the picture would breakup incessently. Taking out the amplifier reduced the meter's reading back to about the middle of the scale, but the picture was more reliable. The 8780 has more noise than the 7777, so unless you saw a definite improvement in picture stability, I'd suspect that they're about the same.


Amplification isn't magic. Once you've overcome line loss and the resistance factor of the receiver's input, any more amplification isn't going to help you. It would be better for you to invest in more or better antennas (stacking, for instance) instead of amplifiers.


----------



## Johnster




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by MAX HD_
> *All coax connections must be of the waterproof variety.Check all connections for moisture intrusion.Any moisture at all will kill UHF,especially the higher frequencies.*



Many thanks everyone for your advise on this. It certainly sounds like my problem with signal loss during the rain is moisture pentetration to the coax when it's rainy. I've redone all the coax connections and protected them this time with rubber coax booties. Hopefully that will do the trick.


I'll report back if it looks successful.


----------



## Sargon11

I'm finally setting up my HDTV system at home to receive the OTA signal out of Madison, WI and have run into an odd problem. First of all, I'm using a Hughes E86 receiver, a Toshiba TN55x81 TV, a Channel Master 3010 StealthTenna and am located in DeForest - about 15 miles from the tower. After a channel scan, all the digital channels are listed with a signal strength of 80 to 100. I have the antenna mounted outside directly above the D* dish on the roof so the strong signal strength wasn't surprising. The problem is cycling through all the channels - I simply get the picture for a fraction of a second then it's gone. The audio comes through continuously just fine but the video refuses to display for longer than a second. When it does its initial brief flash on the screen it is usually scrolling. With the strong signal strength I would think the stb could lock on with no problem. I have a clear shot from the rooftop as there are no tall structures, trees, houses, etc. I've switched component cables, tried both connections on the TV, even a different antenna and always get the same results. The analog signal comes through just fine for all the channels.


Next, I tried an attenuator to see if that made a difference - no difference at all.


The cable run I'm using is about 60' long. It originally was one of the cables going to the D* dish but wasn't being used inside the house. I simply disconnected it from the LNB and connected it to the antenna. After a brief stop at a grounding block, the line continues directly to the E-86....I've also tried using the satellite-in on the E86 instead of the antenna-in since the setup allows you to specify antenna vs satellie for each connection. I still get the same result.


Obviously, this is getting very frustrating. Anyone have an idea where I should begin?


Thanks in advance!!


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Sargon11_
> *The audio comes through continuously just fine but the video refuses to display for longer than a second.
> 
> Obviously, this is getting very frustrating. Anyone have an idea where I should begin?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance!!*



Digital reception is all or none. If you're still getting audio somehow but no video it's likely a problem with your set, connections, or STB.


----------



## dominicr




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by black_macleod_
> *Greets!
> 
> 
> Currently I'm using a Silver Sensor antennae with my LG-4200a OTA receiver. My reception is really good, except for two things. First, I only get PBS occasionally, which isnt a huge deal. Second, I live near a train track, and whenever trains go by I lose signal on some channels (I'm assuming this is a multi-path issue.)
> 
> 
> My question is, I'm turning off my dishnet sat to save cash as I don't really watch that much Sat tv anymore. So I was thinking of putting a Squareshooter 1000 on the current dishnet mount on the house. Do you all think this will help the signal loss, or should I just stick with what I have?
> 
> 
> Oh yea, I live in St. Louis, in the city, so I'm getting most everything I'm supposed to, except the above mentioned PBS feed and UPN. Actually getting the PBS all the time would help with the channel guide
> 
> 
> Cheers*



Your problem with PBS and UPN is direction, not distance especially if your in South City. My father in law is in South County has to use 2 Winegard 4400 for ksdk, kmov, ktvi, kndl, and pbs AND still does not get UPN. I've not heard great things about the square shooter. You may want to deal with someone that has a good return policy in case you get crappy results from any antenna you purchase. This forum has some advertisers you could check out.


----------



## tirwin

I'm new to the forum, and would like to ask a few questions. I've gone through a number of the posts for this thread, but I still have questions. Let me apologize in advance for any stupid or redundant questions that have already been answered.


I plan to buy a new Sony XBR HDTV. I live in Rochester NY (zip 14580) and have lat/long coordinates of 43.200605/-077.416820.


I don't plan to have cable TV, satellite TV or dish network of any kind. (Yes, I know, this is rather odd these days, but the family would be glued to the TV 24/7 if we had all those channels and we'd never have a life).


We have the 3 major networks (NBC, CBS, ABC) plus PBS and FOX. It looks like the antennas for all 5 stations are clustered in the same location about 10 miles away.


I'm looking for a good indoor antenna for HDTV signals, but I'm also curious about non-HDTV signals. Do I need 2 different antennas? Can I get away with a smaller indoor antenna given my distance to the towers?


Any comments, feedback or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks

Tim


----------



## 0db

Wow, I feel stupid right now. I'm deep in the fringe area of the Los Angeles broadcast region, and I've been fussing around with an attic mount for quite some time now, first with a silver sensor, and now with a CM 3020 (YOU try unfolding and assembling 10 feet of antenna around and between your attic rafters!) and just realized my house is stucco. The whole house is wrapped in metal mesh. (bangs head against wall). Anyway, looks like I need to get this thing up on the roof and stockpile ammunition to keep the HOA at bay. I'll be sure to print out a few copies of FCC rule 47 C.F.R. Section 1.4000 before I get started.


----------



## WILDCAT NATION

I'm looking for suggestions...I'm 50 miles from the KC towers, so tonight I decided on a whim to just go buy a Zenith Silver Sensor and try it out...


Well, I hooked it up, and got marginal results inside the house, so I hooked it up to a 75 ft. coax and took it outside, and I'm able to get at least some signal on all the stations out of KC except KMBC-DT which appears to be VHF only...the other channels would lock in, but sporadically, so this tells me I'm onto something. My concern is that I don't think this antenna is supposed to be outdoors at all, and that it won't lock in all that well, not to mention we watch KMBC the most.


Can someone suggest a VERY good Directional VHF/UHF antenna for me? 50 miles away in trees and hills shooting through another tower of a station a mile from my house...


Any help is appreciated, and I've submitted a query to an online dealer. I'm probably looking for a roof mount.


----------



## thriftyrocker

I've had my HDTV for about a month and have been trying to use an old rabbit-ears indoor antenna on the 1st floor to get OTA HDTV. Luckily I am 2 miles from the cluster of antennas that serve the whole Philly area. Most channels work well. FOX, however, does not. I can get 95% signal strength, but I get a lot of periodic dropped out frames. The signal strength will be locked at 95%, then unlock and drop down to 40% for a sec, then bump back up to 95%. It varies how often frames drop out, but it was bad enough on Sunday that I switched the Eagles game to the SD signal from cable. Does anyone have any diagnosis on what could be wrong or recommendations? Thanks.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by WILDCAT NATION_
> *I'm looking for suggestions...I'm 50 miles from the KC towers, so tonight I decided on a whim to just go buy a Zenith Silver Sensor and try it out...
> 
> 
> Well, I hooked it up, and got marginal results inside the house, so I hooked it up to a 75 ft. coax and took it outside, and I'm able to get at least some signal on all the stations out of KC except KMBC-DT which appears to be VHF only...the other channels would lock in, but sporadically, so this tells me I'm onto something. My concern is that I don't think this antenna is supposed to be outdoors at all, and that it won't lock in all that well, not to mention we watch KMBC the most.
> 
> 
> Can someone suggest a VERY good Directional VHF/UHF antenna for me? 50 miles away in trees and hills shooting through another tower of a station a mile from my house...
> 
> 
> Any help is appreciated, and I've submitted a query to an online dealer. I'm probably looking for a roof mount.*



You probably need to go with separate uhf and vhf antennae. The CM 4228 is a good option for uhf if your installation is sturdy and you don't plan on a rotor. Alternatively, the Antennasdirect XG91.


For VHF, consider the Antennacraft Y10 7-13, Delhi cut channel 7 ( http://www.starkelectronic.com/delhi.htm ), or even a home-made folded dipole see http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html and http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html 


You'll either need a preamp like the CM 7777 which combines uhf and vhf for you or you'll need a diplexer like the CM 0549 available at Starkelectronics.com. I'd worry a little about overload from the station a mile from you so maybe try without the amp first and keep the cable as short as possible and at least RG6. If it's a low power local don't worry about it and get the CM 7777.


I'd probably go with a wall mount or ground mount if you can. They are technically easier to do and at least in the ground mount's case much stronger.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by tirwin_
> *I'm new to the forum, and would like to ask a few questions. I've gone through a number of the posts for this thread, but I still have questions. Let me apologize in advance for any stupid or redundant questions that have already been answered.
> 
> 
> I plan to buy a new Sony XBR HDTV. I live in Rochester NY (zip 14580) and have lat/long coordinates of 43.200605/-077.416820.
> 
> 
> I don't plan to have cable TV, satellite TV or dish network of any kind. (Yes, I know, this is rather odd these days, but the family would be glued to the TV 24/7 if we had all those channels and we'd never have a life).
> 
> 
> We have the 3 major networks (NBC, CBS, ABC) plus PBS and FOX. It looks like the antennas for all 5 stations are clustered in the same location about 10 miles away.
> 
> 
> I'm looking for a good indoor antenna for HDTV signals, but I'm also curious about non-HDTV signals. Do I need 2 different antennas? Can I get away with a smaller indoor antenna given my distance to the towers?
> 
> 
> Any comments, feedback or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Tim*



Hi and welcome to the forum. No there is nothing special about an hd antenna. It will pick up analog as well as HD signals. You are only 8.5 miles from all the Rochester digital stations and there all UHF. Some of the analogs are VHF 10 and 13. Since you are so close a UHF will more then likely also get them. You have a bunch of channels from Buffalo and like if you really wanted to go for it but sounds like you're not after them. The Zenith silver sensor is a good indoor antenna and will probably work in your case. The only problem you may have is multipath and you really won't know until you try. If your using and indoor antenna now and don't get much ghosting your probably OK. Whatever your presently using will also work for HD so give it a try before buying anything new. If your signal comes up and down (drops out) on digitals then you have multipath and will need a more directional antenna. Good luck.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by WILDCAT NATION_
> *I'm looking for suggestions...I'm 50 miles from the KC towers, so tonight I decided on a whim to just go buy a Zenith Silver Sensor and try it out...
> 
> 
> Well, I hooked it up, and got marginal results inside the house, so I hooked it up to a 75 ft. coax and took it outside, and I'm able to get at least some signal on all the stations out of KC except KMBC-DT which appears to be VHF only...the other channels would lock in, but sporadically, so this tells me I'm onto something. My concern is that I don't think this antenna is supposed to be outdoors at all, and that it won't lock in all that well, not to mention we watch KMBC the most.
> 
> 
> Can someone suggest a VERY good Directional VHF/UHF antenna for me? 50 miles away in trees and hills shooting through another tower of a station a mile from my house...
> 
> 
> Any help is appreciated, and I've submitted a query to an online dealer. I'm probably looking for a roof mount.*



Your digital stations are UHF except for your favorite which is digital 7 KMBC. First check to see if you are in there coverage area here.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DT600939.html 


If you are then the silver sensor will not work for it is a UHF indoor. The very best antenna for 50 miles is the 43 XG or 91xg from antennas direct with along with the Channel Master 4228. The Channel Master is big and heavy has a lot of wind load. The antennas direct is small light with little wind load. These are both UHF only so you'll need a small hi band antenna to get KMBC. If you rather go with a combo antenna VHF/UHF then you need to go fairly big. Winegard HD7084p is about the smallest and lightest that will do the job. The HD8200 would be best if you can get it locally but it cost a fortune to ship. Channel Master also has a few good ones the 3679 or 3678. You may need an amp the CM 7777 is the best low noise amp which also has a combiner to combine the UHF and VHF into one downlead.

If I was going to do it? I do it right and get the 91xg and a 10 element hi band antenna. I'd wait to see if you need the booster but if your run is going to be 75 feet or more go ahead and get one. Some links below to look at.
http://www.solidsignal.com/search_re...ntennas&page=2 

http://www.antennasdirect.com/LongRangeAntennas.htm 

http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm 


The 10 element hi band 7 thru 13 is only $31 plus shipping.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by thriftyrocker_
> *I've had my HDTV for about a month and have been trying to use an old rabbit-ears indoor antenna on the 1st floor to get OTA HDTV. Luckily I am 2 miles from the cluster of antennas that serve the whole Philly area. Most channels work well. FOX, however, does not. I can get 95% signal strength, but I get a lot of periodic dropped out frames. The signal strength will be locked at 95%, then unlock and drop down to 40% for a sec, then bump back up to 95%. It varies how often frames drop out, but it was bad enough on Sunday that I switched the Eagles game to the SD signal from cable. Does anyone have any diagnosis on what could be wrong or recommendations? Thanks.*



You are getting multipath and will need a more directional antenna. Try the silver sensor from Zenith but be sure they let you return it if it doesn't work. If it fails then you need a larger convential antenna.


----------



## WILDCAT NATION

jim...


Thank you for the information. Can you tell me how you got that map of the coverage area? I've tried and tried to get one of those by making queries on that page but can't figure out how to get the coverage maps..


I'm basically where the black dot is in St. Joseph, MO.


Nevermind, I think I finally found how to get those maps..but I still have no idea how to get to that page without linking to it...



I might go by radio shack tonight and get some stuff just to experiment a bit...


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by WILDCAT NATION_
> *Can you tell me how you got that map of the coverage area? I've tried and tried to get one of those by making queries on that page but can't figure out how to get the coverage maps..*



Follow these steps:


1) Go to http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html 


2) Enter your call letters in the box labeled "Call Sign"


3) Select TV Query - detailed output from the box of Output choices.


4) Submit your query


5) Find the digital signal listing for the station in question. (If there's an STA - Special Temporary Authority, use that listing unless you know it's out of date and they're running full power.) At the bottom of the listing, there's a link called "Area: Service Contour Map (xxdBu)" Click that.


There's your map.


----------



## Andrew_J_M

This is slightly off-topic but I think it may be of interest. Last week I extended my mast to 10 feet. Since then it has made a deep note in any significant wind. As it is supported by a guyed J mount on the roof above my bedroom, which seems to act as a sounding board, this is annoying to say the least. IIRC a 10 foot organ pipe resonates at approximately 100 Hz, which seems about right.


I realize that I need to plug the top of the mast to fix this, which means I have to take it down again but it would have been useful to have been aware of this beforehand.


Has anyone ever come across this phenomenon before?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Andrew_J_M_
> *This is slightly off-topic but I think it may be of interest. Last week I extended my mast to 10 feet. Since then it has made a deep note in any significant wind. As it is supported by a guyed J mount on the roof above my bedroom, which seems to act as a sounding board, this is annoying to say the least. IIRC a 10 foot organ pipe resonates at approximately 100 Hz, which seems about right.
> 
> 
> Has anyone ever come across this phenomenon before?*



Yes. I had the exact same problem with a thin-metal mast that I purchased at a local hardware store. Thicker ones seem not to resonate so readily.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by WILDCAT NATION_
> *jim...
> 
> 
> Thank you for the information. Can you tell me how you got that map of the coverage area? I've tried and tried to get one of those by making queries on that page but can't figure out how to get the coverage maps..
> 
> 
> I'm basically where the black dot is in St. Joseph, MO.
> 
> 
> Nevermind, I think I finally found how to get those maps..but I still have no idea how to get to that page without linking to it...
> 
> 
> 
> I might go by radio shack tonight and get some stuff just to experiment a bit...*



Your welcome.


Serenger just gave you details how to get the maps. You should get Topeka and maybe Lincoln and Omahah stations. You are definetly in their coverage area.


Just FYI I have a 91XG about 17 feet in the air with no amp. I get 70+ miles of very reliable digitals. Some of the stations are still low powered. Mine has several mountains to go over where you are fairly flat. My signal from 70+ miles is reading in the mid 80's. Good Luck with your reception. You may want to take a look here to help you understand hooking up.
http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/AntInstallGuide.pdf


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by WILDCAT NATION_
> *jim...
> 
> 
> Thank you for the information.*



See my response to your question as well although it's not critically very different from Jim's.


----------



## DeaneG

Has anyone out there modified their CM4228's feedlines to try to improve high-channel reception (per the author's suggestion in hdtvprimer_com/ANTENNAS/cm4228) ?


I'd like to get a few more dB at UHF 56/57. The alternate solution would be to trim the bowties a little, but I'd prefer not to trade off low-channel gain.


----------



## rldud

I posted some questions about a low power broadcast of UHF channel 57 signal in my area last week and received some very good info. I am now looking at different antennas and again have some questions. I found a Winegard PR4400 that looks similar to the Channel Master 4228. The gains seem to be pretty good and the price is even better. Any input on this one? Thanks for all the help.


----------



## WILDCAT NATION




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *See my response to your question as well although it's not critically very different from Jim's.*



Sorry about that CP! I missed it at first...


Thanks for the information folks..I'll post back when I get some stuff figured out...


----------



## tirwin

Jimc, thanks for your help. I'll try the silver sensor when I get the new TV, which hopefully will be very soon.


Tim


----------



## WILDCAT NATION

Well, the long range VHF/UHF from Radio Shack sucks..


----------



## toddr007

Hi all,


First off - I want to say - thanks, I've searched through this thread - reading about half of the posts, and have learned a lot.


I live in the suburbs of Minneapolis, about 25 miles from the towers that transmit 9 of the 10 stations available to me that I'm interested in - and they are at either 59° or 60°. The tenth is 35 miles away at 347° . Most of them transmit at 600 to 1000 kW on UHF channels 16 (lowest power, 50kw) up to 50.


My analog VHF reception is so-so on my 19 year old Sony, but I notice that my son's newer little Toshiba - with an old VHF rooftop antenna of unknown origin gets both UHF and vhf just fine. Based on everything I've read here and using Anntennaweb.org's tool (it says I need a medium directional) I think I should be fine with a 4 bay bow tie like the CM 4221 which I will place on the roof in place of the old vhf antenna. The only structure that could give me trouble for multi-path nearby is a water tower that is several blocks away - in the null direction of a directional antenna aimed at 60° My only other concern is trees - especially after reading the information found in the hdtvprimer.com website. I cannot clear the trees, even from my roof. On the other hand, I'm at a higher elevation (1065 feet) than the towers (960 feet) so I probably have a clear line of sight. - especially in the winter time.


So here are my question(s) - I'm going to put up a CM 4221, unamplified, to start with. Am I better off adding a preamp right away? From what I've read that won't help me much unless I'm in fringe area. My cable run will be 30 feet or so. Is this enough antenna for me? I considered something bigger, but it seemed like an 8 bay bow might be overkill. I was also considering the Winegard 9032 or AD XG42 (am I the only one that thinks the Yagi's look cooler?), but it seemed like the 4221 has the most bang for the buck. And finally, are the trees going to be real signal killers in the summer time?


Thanks for sharing all of this know how with us neophytes.


Todd


----------



## watchdoc

After months of putting up with crappy signals based on the antennaeweb compass headings, I took the time to try each channel I'm supposed to get and see what actual headings work best. I have a channel master remote control rotor. I set the rotor display to 000 and pointed the antennae to North by a compass. I'm prol off a few degrees SO THESE NUMBERS MAY BE DIFFERENT THAN YOURS but my point is that the are drastically different than the compass headings that antennaeweb gave me. Here are my results.


Equipment

Tuner- MyHD120 HDTV tuner card

Antenna- Channel Master 3020 roof mounted on a single story home

Antenna amplifier- channel master Spartan 3 model 3041 w/ FM trap IN


Any suggestions on equipment would be appreciated since i can return any of it. It all came from Lowes.


Channels

WYDO FOX 21 - never been able to pick up any digital Fox station

WITN NBC 32- listed as 223 degrees but I get best signal at 233

WNCT CBS 10- listed as 223 degrees but i get best signal at 258

WUNK PBS 23- listed as 278 degrees but I get best signal at 225

WCTI ABC 48- listed as 200 degrees but I get best signal at 242


Once again, my antenna is probably off a few degrees but you get the idea. I'm located in Grimesland and my zip code is 27837 if that makes a difference.


----------



## jvcjbl

Hello,


I recently joined the HD world and upgraded to HD on dish with a 811. I have no expeirenced any draw backs that I have read on here as of yet, knock on wood. My questions are as follows. I have the old original Terk TV42 antenna and am able to get my 2 out of 4 of my local broad cast HD channels. I live in Santa Maria CA, and my channels and distances are as follows: 12.1 = 14.4 miles which I get at a constant 93%, channel 33.1 = 32.4 miles I get at a constant 89%, channel 6.1 = 32.4 comes in a 49% then drops to 0% and some times out of the blue goes to about 52% and actually displays a picture, channel 3.1 = 38.8 miles is not even picked up. I have no obsticles or anything blocking direct line of sight to the sky or surrounding area. My question is what can I do to atleast pull in channel 6.1 in stronger since I am able to get it infrequently but can get it at least. I am not willing to resurect another antenna but would be willing to install any recommended in door antenna. I also noticed that Terk has a similiar antenna like my TV42 but it is amplified, anyone use this or try it? Second question, my local channel 12 news states it is broadcast in DTV on channel 19, antenna web shows that channel as channel 12.1. Some times I check my guide and OTA channel 12 shows up at 19-01 and some times it shows up as 12-01. When it shows up as 12-01 I get a guide display of what the name of the show is on and info about it, when it is 19-01 it does nothing. It doesn't do it with verying signal strength but random. Any clue to this or rhyme of reason? Oh yeah, channel 11 KKFX is broad case OTA as channel 12-02 but when my channels fluctuate to 19-01 KKFX changes to 19-02. I don't notice picture quality change or anything just number listing changes. Thanks for your help.


----------



## jimc705

jvcjbl

Sorry not much hope without an antenna improvement. You have multipath and need a good directional antenna. Save your money, for an amp will not amplify what the antenna cannot receive. I have an 811 also with many montains in the way. I use Antennas Direct 91XG, no amp and get reliable steady digital signals in the mid 80's 70 miles from transmitter. You wouldn't need a 91XG probably a smaller 43xg or CM 4221.


As for the PSIP remapping. Channel 12.01 is changing to 19.01 because it actually is being transmitted UHF 19. The 811 remaps it back to 12.1 which is what all analog viewers and most people are use to watching channel 12. I noticed on the 811 if the signal fluctates widely it will sometimes get confused and for some reason will not remap back to 12.1 . This is why you get 19.1. This month all stations have a deadline I believe it's Feb 1 to get their PSIP working correctly. Some stations are having trouble and this may also be another reason for the remapping problem. Once the signal level gets up to par this problem will go away. The 811 needs a signal level in the mid 60's for reliable reception with no drop outs.


----------



## jimc705

toddr007


Hi and welcome to the forum. At 25 to 35 miles the trees may not be an issue unless they completely block the the whole NE sky or are very close to the antenna. The signal will scatter around the trees.


The 4221 should be sufficient antenna and is a good price. I'd go with no amp unless you have 50 feet or more of coax run or plan on splitting signal to other sets. That's at least $50 you may not need to spend. You can always add one later if you choose. The AD or Winegard antennas you mention are also both very good antennas. (IMO) I like the AD antennas for their lifetime warranty and if they don't work you can get a refund. They are a lot more expensive but built a little more durable. Yagis have much less wind load (if that may be a problem in your area) and do a better job from about channel 30 up with not much of a signaficant difference. Below that the screen antennas do better especially at very low end 14 to 20.

You can check out gains of the 9032 and 4221 here.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


Look at net gain not raw gain. Good Luck in you reception. Looks like you have it under control. You may also find this link from Cahnnel Master helpful.

http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/AntInstallGuide.pdf


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by rldud_
> *I found a Winegard PR4400 that looks similar to the Channel Master 4228. The gains seem to be pretty good and the price is even better. Any input on this one? Thanks for all the help.*



I think you mean the PR8800, as the 4400 is more like the CM 3021. Based on computer modeling, the PR8800 is slightly better below channel 20, and then the 4228 begins to be better. Still, the difference is slight and unless you're on the very edge of receivability, either should work just fine. The Winegards are made of aluminum and are therefore lighter (but still just as sturdy.) However, they have similar wind loads so if you're planning on using a rotor, you'll want to get a bearing support.


In general, I've been more impressed with the build quality of Winegard compared to Channel Master, but I have no experience with any of the bowties due to wind issues.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by toddr007_
> *...I think I should be fine with a 4 bay bow tie like the CM 4221 which I will place on the roof in place of the old vhf antenna. ...My only other concern is trees - especially after reading the information found in the hdtvprimer.com website.
> 
> 
> ...Am I better off adding a preamp right away?*



I think the 4221 is a great choice. Ness Electronics sells direct to consumers at their stores, and they charge wholesale prices. Last I checked, it was under $25.


The trees are unlikely to cause you major problems at that distance, unless you're shooting through a lot of them. Even then, it would only crop up on windy days.


Skip the preamp. Whatever problems the trees cause will be made worse by a preamplifier, and at your distance, you'll be getting plenty of signal from a 4221.


----------



## WILDCAT NATION

Ok...Solid Signal is recommending this model...

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...=&PROD=ANC3679 


And last night I went and picked up this model at Radio Shack just to experiment...

http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...t%5Fid=15-2154 



Now, all I did was set this thing up on a tripod in my driveway like I did with the Silver Sensor the night before, and I was able to pick up KMBC (Digital Channel is 7) very easily, but didn't pull in squat in terms of UHF channels...


Now, I was discouraged because I figured that if the teeny little silver sensor could pull in all of them, then this thing should have no trouble..but I got nuthin'...


Not sure what to think now...but it did appear as though I was very close to getting a signal..so I'm thinking of trying a temporary mount on the roof...I don't want to drill until I'm certain I can get at least ABC, CBS, and the NBC feed (Fox isn't at full power yet)...


----------



## Bill Johnson

I used the RS UHF 75 mile antenna in my attic for a number of months and digital reception was kind of marginal. Then I went to the CM 4228 and, voila, reception immediately became nothing short of phenomenal. I had to do some cutting of trim around the attic opening to get the 4228 up there, but it was well worth it.


----------



## WILDCAT NATION

What is different about the Channel Master's? are they made differently, out of different materials, etc?


----------



## TAKECOVER

I currently have an 8 bay with amplifier and can get NBC, FOX, ABC, all with above 90% signal. I can not get CBS unless I move the antenna and miss all the other main networks. I would like to have one antenna dedicated to CBS and some way link it to my other antenna? CBS is on 59.1 and is the highest channel # that I am having problems with. All the channels are about 4 miles from me. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


Jimmy


----------



## TAKECOVER

I currently have an 8 bay with amplifier and can get NBC, FOX, ABC, all with above 90% signal. I can not get CBS unless I move the antenna and miss all the other main networks. I would like to have one antenna dedicated to CBS and some way link it to my other antenna? CBS is on 59.1 and is the highest channel # that I am having problems with. All the channels are about 4 miles from me. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


Jimmy


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by TAKECOVER_
> *I currently have an 8 bay with amplifier and can get NBC, FOX, ABC, all with above 90% signal. I can not get CBS unless I move the antenna and miss all the other main networks. I would like to have one antenna dedicated to CBS and some way link it to my other antenna? CBS is on 59.1 and is the highest channel # that I am having problems with. All the channels are about 4 miles from me. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> *



You're looking for the Channel Master "Jointenna". Get the one for the right frequency (absolute channel number, not "virtual") and you should be good to go.


And pull off that amplifier. It's doing nothing good for you at 4 miles. Maybe that's all you need to do to improve your reception.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by WILDCAT NATION_
> *What is different about the Channel Master's? are they made differently, out of different materials, etc?*



There's nothing magic about them. They have a better design. They're made of more durable stuff. But don't be confused, the 4228 is not the equivalent of the 75-mile rated Radio Shack model.


Solid Signal was right to tell you you need a big UHF antenna. And since you need VHF, they're right about the Crossfire.


As a general rule, take any Radio Shack mileage estimate and divide it by 2. Now that's a reasonable maximum for that antenna. So if it says it's good for 60 miles, it's really only good for 30 miles (max.) The Channel Master 3679 is a good antenna. Not perfect, but very good. I'd try the 3978 myself, but the ..79 might be good enough.


----------



## TAKECOVER




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *You're looking for the Channel Master "Jointenna". Get the one for the right frequency (absolute channel number, not "virtual") and you should be good to go.
> 
> 
> And pull off that amplifier. It's doing nothing good for you at 4 miles. Maybe that's all you need to do to improve your reception.*



Can I hook this Channel Master inline with my 8 bay antenna? I do have to use the amp though. It appears that I am right under the tower and get very little signal. It "overshoots" me as I was told by a tech










Where is a good source for the Channel Master if I can use them inline?


Thanks,

Jimmy


----------



## greywolf

Do get rid of the amp. Instead, tilt the antenna upward to the source if needed. Aim includes inclination as well as azimuth for those close in at different elevations.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by watchdoc_
> *After months of putting up with crappy signals based on the antennaeweb compass headings, I took the time to try each channel I'm supposed to get and see what actual headings work best. I have a channel master remote control rotor. I set the rotor display to 000 and pointed the antennae to North by a compass. I'm prol off a few degrees SO THESE NUMBERS MAY BE DIFFERENT THAN YOURS but my point is that the are drastically different than the compass headings that antennaeweb gave me. Here are my results.
> 
> 
> Equipment
> 
> Tuner- MyHD120 HDTV tuner card
> 
> Antenna- Channel Master 3020 roof mounted on a single story home
> 
> Antenna amplifier- channel master Spartan 3 model 3041 w/ FM trap IN
> 
> 
> Any suggestions on equipment would be appreciated since i can return any of it. It all came from Lowes.
> 
> 
> Channels
> 
> WYDO FOX 21 - never been able to pick up any digital Fox station
> 
> WITN NBC 32- listed as 223 degrees but I get best signal at 233
> 
> WNCT CBS 10- listed as 223 degrees but i get best signal at 258
> 
> WUNK PBS 23- listed as 278 degrees but I get best signal at 225
> 
> WCTI ABC 48- listed as 200 degrees but I get best signal at 242
> 
> 
> Once again, my antenna is probably off a few degrees but you get the idea. I'm located in Grimesland and my zip code is 27837 if that makes a difference.*



Go to http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp punch in your exact coordinates and the appropriate magnetic variation for your area and see what you get. I think it's more accurate there.


That's a good amplifier. The only thing is it has only a single input and won't diplex separate vhf/uhf antennae for you. If you can take it back I would and get the CM 7777 which has separate *and* combined inputs.

It's available at multiple online sources : solidsignal.com, starkelectronics.com, warrenelectronics.com, and others.


You might consider the Antennasdirect XG91 as a better uhf antenna. The CM 4228 would be good too but it'll be hard on your rotor. The XG91 might just get you vhf 10 anyway (try it through the back i.e. 180 degrees off axis). If not, it's pretty easy to add a separate high band vhf antenna like an Antennacraft Y10 7-13 for about 35 bucks.


----------



## sf49ersnfl

I am using a silver sensor and can only get my local cbs at 25-30%(it is 45 miles away operating at 21.6kw in El Paso Texas) and my family will not let me put up an outdoor antenna. Do you guys have any tricks that can help me get a better signal perhaps for tin foil would help? I already am using a 12db amplifier a rg6 25ft coax cable and a philips 5 ft coax gold. Thanks in advance! Oh and my tv seems to be picking up signals at 40%


----------



## d33bo

I am looking to get a Winegard Squareshooter.

What else will I need? Do they come with some sort of mount? I assume they do.

Is there special weatherproof cabling or connectors that I will need for outside?

I am also planning on getting some flat coax to bring it in to the house.

Any advice you guys can offer is appreciated.


You guys talked me into trying something outside, since the indoor options are not working. The squareshooter seems to work pretty well and it isn't bad looking. It should work with all my towers in one direction at 15 miles.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sf49ersnfl_
> *I am using a silver sensor and can only get my local cbs at 25-30%(it is 45 miles away operating at 21.6kw in El Paso Texas) and my family will not let me put up an outdoor antenna. Do you guys have any tricks that can help me get a better signal perhaps for tin foil would help? I already am using a 12db amplifier a rg6 25ft coax cable and a philips 5 ft coax gold. Thanks in advance! Oh and my tv seems to be picking up signals at 40%*



If you can't go outside the next best is a big antenna in your attic aimed correctly at the towers. The 4228 seems to do well in attics and is primarily uhf but also does fairly well with vhf 9-13.


There aren't many other tricks with the silver sensor other than moving it around in the room and changing location that would help in your situtation. There's only so much a small antenna can do.


----------



## Andrew_J_M




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by watchdoc_
> *After months of putting up with crappy signals based on the antennaeweb compass headings, I took the time to try each channel I'm supposed to get and see what actual headings work best. I have a channel master remote control rotor. I set the rotor display to 000 and pointed the antennae to North by a compass. I'm prol off a few degrees SO THESE NUMBERS MAY BE DIFFERENT THAN YOURS but my point is that the are drastically different than the compass headings that antennaeweb gave me. Here are my results.
> 
> 
> Equipment
> 
> Tuner- MyHD120 HDTV tuner card
> 
> Antenna- Channel Master 3020 roof mounted on a single story home
> 
> Antenna amplifier- channel master Spartan 3 model 3041 w/ FM trap IN
> 
> 
> Any suggestions on equipment would be appreciated since i can return any of it. It all came from Lowes.
> 
> 
> Channels
> 
> WYDO FOX 21 - never been able to pick up any digital Fox station
> 
> WITN NBC 32- listed as 223 degrees but I get best signal at 233
> 
> WNCT CBS 10- listed as 223 degrees but i get best signal at 258
> 
> WUNK PBS 23- listed as 278 degrees but I get best signal at 225
> 
> WCTI ABC 48- listed as 200 degrees but I get best signal at 242
> 
> 
> Once again, my antenna is probably off a few degrees but you get the idea. I'm located in Grimesland and my zip code is 27837 if that makes a difference.*



A point to make about using a rotor is that you should always approach a setting from the same direction such as clockwise. For instance, if you have three stations, ABC at 200, NBC at 223 and PBS at 278 as above, then you can go directly from ABC to either of the other channels, but to go to ABC you should go to a dummy station at maybe 180 then back to 200. Otherwise you can have errors due to slack in the gearing.


Also my compass varies depending on where in the house I am. On the map my ridge goes from 110 to 290 magnetic. If I am in the garden my compass agress with this, in the kitchen it is more like 90 to 270, in the master bedroom it is 120 to 300. I think that even having the car in the garage or in the drive makes a difference.


----------



## lsdean

Hi everyone. Here are my stations

CBS 12° 9.3miles freq-25

NBC 19° 7.2 48

FOX 17° 9.4 43

WB 17° 9.4 42


ABC 123° 13.2 51


Currently, I have a setup with two antennas. A big antenna in the attic (approx 30 ft cable run) getting CBS, NBC, Fox, and WB and a little bowtie in the living room (approx 6 ft cable run) getting ABC. In the past, I have been changing the cable in my receiver to get the desired station. I would like to combine these two lines.


I tried using a two way splitter. ABC still comes in. Fox is in and out (went from 80's to 50's) while NBC, CBS and WB don't come in (all ranging from 0-25 mostly). Obviously I am getting a signal loss. What are my options? Is a Jointenna my best bet and would I still get considerable signal loss from the attic? Would a preamp help on the cable from the attic? Thanks


Correction: the freq for ABC is 51 not 4.


----------



## MAX HD

The simplest way to switch from one to the other is to get a remote controlled A/B switch from Radio shack ~$39.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by lsdean_
> *Hi everyone. Here are my stations
> 
> CBS 12° 9.3miles freq-25
> 
> NBC 19° 7.2 48
> 
> FOX 17° 9.4 43
> 
> WB 17° 9.4 42
> 
> 
> ABC 123° 13.2 4
> 
> 
> Currently, I have a setup with two antennas. A big antenna in the attic (approx 30 ft cable run) getting CBS, NBC, Fox, and WB and a little bowtie in the living room (approx 6 ft cable run) getting ABC. In the past, I have been changing the cable in my receiver to get the desired station. I would like to combine these two lines.
> 
> 
> I tried using a two way splitter. ABC still comes in. Fox is in and out (went from 80's to 50's) while NBC, CBS and WB don't come in (all ranging from 0-25 mostly). Obviously I am getting a signal loss. What are my options? Is a Jointenna my best bet and would I still get considerable signal loss from the attic? Would a preamp help on the cable from the attic? Thanks*



Since all your channels are UHF except ABC then you can get away with a UHF/VHF seperator about $3. They will do the job. Anytime you put something in the main feed line you lose some signal. The loss will be very minimal with the seperator above about 1db. As you have found out a 2 way splitter will not work. If you don't won't your bow tie in the living room then you can move it up to the attic also and run both on one line. Since your ABC is VHF you may want to make a folded dipole from twin lead and mount in the attic. The bow tie is a UHF not a VHF antenna the dipole should do a better job cut to proper length for channel 4. See this link how to do so.
http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html


----------



## jscuras

I have Comcast in Chicago and I have been experiencing distortion in my low band frequencies. The many, many, many Comcast techs that have been to my house have stated that my signal is to high. The signals are as follows:



High 14.3

Low 21.2


Optimum is supposedly


High 11.3 - 12.5

Low 14.4 - 16.8


Is this accurate? How can I get Comcast to properly regulate this. They are now telling me that the signal I have is good enough and that they will not do anything. They sent a line tech and he said the signal was fine, 20 Db at the pole.


1) What is the difference between the pole strength and the low and high band strength?

2) What do I need to tell Comcast to do to fix the situation they might know but are refusing to tell me so that they do not create a monster, in that every other customer could request signal modifications.

3) What equipment can I buy that will fix the problem?

4) Are there amplifiers that can only boost the high bands and not the low? I ask this because if I use an attenuator it might bring the high bands down too much.


Thank you for any direction.


----------



## Rmassey

I want to use two UHF antennas, pointed in the same direction and plane, to obtain better signal for local HDTV reception. To combine these, can I just use a 2-way cable splitter (in reverese), or is there a different type of 'combiner' device that will allow me to use two UHF antennas for increased gain?


----------



## Andrew_J_M

Here is one for the physics majors, or mechanical engineers.

I intend mounting my antenna on my framed-in chimney (it has vinyl siding) using 4" wall mounts. I have a choice of using either a single 5' mast or two coupled together making 9' 6''. The chimney is about 7'above the roof.


The antenna is a Winguard HD9065P, which is a rear mounted UHF Yagi about 4' long. It weghs about 4 pounds.


1) To use the coupled mast, with the bottom resting in a roof mount which would presumably take some weight together with the wall mounts spread about 4' apart.


2) Use a single 5' section with the wall mounts 3' apart?


3) Mount the antenna between the wall mounts on the single 5' section as heigh as it will go. This would be lower but I don't think height is a problem.


Which is the strongest option?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Rmassey_
> *I want to use two UHF antennas, pointed in the same direction and plane, to obtain better signal for local HDTV reception. To combine these, can I just use a 2-way cable splitter (in reverese), or is there a different type of 'combiner' device that will allow me to use two UHF antennas for increased gain?*



There are specifically designed combiners for this but the improvement over a quality splitter in reverse is small and you have to decide if it's worth it to you to get the more expensive combiner. Lindsay electronics makes a good one as does Triax.


Use identical antennas and identical lengths of coax up to the combiner/splitter. If you are using 300/75 baluns be sure they are phased properly (hook them up, check the performance, then switch the polarity on one and check again: the best performance is properly phased).


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Andrew_J_M_
> *Here is one for the physics majors, or mechanical engineers.
> 
> I intend mounting my antenna on my framed-in chimney (it has vinyl siding) using 4" wall mounts. I have a choice of using either a single 5' mast or two coupled together making 9' 6''. The chimney is about 7'above the roof.
> 
> 
> The antenna is a Winguard HD9065P, which is a rear mounted UHF Yagi about 4' long. It weghs about 4 pounds.
> 
> 
> 1) To use the coupled mast, with the bottom resting in a roof mount which would presumably take some weight together with the wall mounts spread about 4' apart.
> 
> 
> 2) Use a single 5' section with the wall mounts 3' apart?
> 
> 
> 3) Mount the antenna between the wall mounts on the single 5' section as heigh as it will go. This would be lower but I don't think height is a problem.
> 
> 
> Which is the strongest option?*



Number one is definitely strongest. I'd span the joint between the mast sections with a u-bolt to make it one rigid span as well. Obviously you will need to mount to studs under the vinyl, which might be tricky depending on the stud spacing.


----------



## Rmassey




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *There are specifically designed combiners for this but the improvement over a quality splitter in reverse is small and you have to decide if it's worth it to you to get the more expensive combiner. Lindsay electronics makes a good one as does Triax.
> 
> 
> Use identical antennas and identical lengths of coax up to the combiner/splitter. If you are using 300/75 baluns be sure they are phased properly (hook them up, check the performance, then switch the polarity on one and check again: the best performance is properly phased).*



Thanks cpcat, I'll look into the Lindsay and Triax. I am using identical antennas and do have the same length Coax going to a splitter. My signal strength is the same as using only one antenna.


Rat shack sells a VHF/UHF combiner, would this be suitable or do I strictly need a UHF/UHF combiner? RS is easy, if I see no improvment, I can just return it.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Rmassey_
> *Thanks cpcat, I'll look into the Lindsay and Triax. I am using identical antennas and do have the same length Coax going to a splitter. My signal strength is the same as using only one antenna.
> 
> 
> Rat shack sells a VHF/UHF combiner, would this be suitable or do I strictly need a UHF/UHF combiner? RS is easy, if I see no improvment, I can just return it.*



The splitter/combiner should be wideband or at least covering the uhf range. The vhf/uhf "combiner" you refer to is actually a diplexer/separator and can't be used for this purpose. There's a good splitter/combiner available at Lowe's made by Zenith which I've used. It's 0-2GHz and I think it's about 5 dollars.


I wouldn't pay as much attention to absolute signal strength as I would to performance, i.e. stability of reception, etc. Much of the advantage at least with horizontal stacking is via the narrowed beamwidth and not necessarily from increased gain per se. Obviously, accurate aiming is a must with the narrowed beamwidth as well.


I think one of the problems we have at this point is that the airwaves are so crowded with analog/digitals and this as well as multipath rejection is the reason for higher performance with horizontal stacking. After the analog shutoff, it may be that vertical stacking will work better in the fringe.


----------



## jscuras

How can I regulate signal strength?

I have Comcast in Chicago and I have been experiencing distortion in my low band frequencies. The many, many, many Comcast techs that have been to my house have stated that my signal is to high. The signals are as follows:



High 14.3

Low 21.2


Optimum is supposedly


High 11.3 - 12.5

Low 14.4 - 16.8


Is this accurate? How can I get Comcast to properly regulate this. They are now telling me that the signal I have is good enough and that they will not do anything. They sent a line tech and he said the signal was fine, 20 Db at the pole.


1) What is the difference between the pole strength and the low and high band strength?

2) What do I need to tell Comcast to do to fix the situation they might know but are refusing to tell me so that they do not create a monster, in that every other customer could request signal modifications.

3) What equipment can I buy that will fix the problem?

4) Are there amplifiers that can only boost the high bands and not the low? I ask this because if I use an attenuator it might bring the high bands down too much.


Thank you for any direction.


----------



## easyCraig




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by AdamE_
> *Maybe this is redundant, even downright dumb, but how about an aesthetically pleasing good antenna? I just redid my home, got a HDTV w the direct TV hr10-250 tivo rec.....I need an OTA for the superbowl but dont want to put a monster 1950s antenna on my rooftop....Help
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ?*



I would check out antennas direct @ www.antennasdirect.com/ , I came across these guys through AVS and their antennas work! I picked up a DB2 and now have great reception... ( I mounted it on the chimney ) - they are small and not quite the eyesore like the old school antennas. (they are also very fairly priced!) I picked one up for my friend who lives on the second floor of a tall apartment building, and we were able to get all of his main channels with the db2 also.... (his view to the towers are completely blocked by a taller apartment building next to him). (he had tried 2 different antennas from Radio Shack without much luck...) Just my cents..... good luck !


----------



## greywolf




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jscuras_
> *How can I regulate signal strength?
> 
> I have Comcast in Chicago and I have been experiencing distortion in my low band frequencies.*



This is the second time you've posted this in an antenna forum. It's a cableTV question not involving antennas. The Chicago-Comcast forum at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...98#post5029198 is the local forum on topic. Since it's not specific to Chicago though, you might have better luck in the hardware forum.


----------



## jskibo

Need help before the big game.


I'm in Middletown, DE (19709). Kind of split between Baltimore and Philly. Currently I am in a rental Townhome and can't put anything up outside, so I'm stuck with an indoor mounting (until we move in July). Is there anything out there that can pull a signal in from 40+ miles indoors? I have a Silver sensor from the other house, but I get nothing with it.


I'm using a Fusion3 Gold T as my tuner if that helps.


Thanks!


----------



## jscuras

Sorry if I miss-posted. I thought signal reception would be an appropriate topic for my problem. I must have mistakenly gone into the antenna topic.


Thank you for your guidance.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jskibo_
> *Need help before the big game.
> 
> 
> I'm in Middletown, DE (19709). Kind of split between Baltimore and Philly. Currently I am in a rental Townhome and can't put anything up outside, so I'm stuck with an indoor mounting (until we move in July). Is there anything out there that can pull a signal in from 40+ miles indoors? I have a Silver sensor from the other house, but I get nothing with it.
> 
> 
> I'm using a Fusion3 Gold T as my tuner if that helps.
> 
> 
> Thanks!*



You are in a tough area. You are too far for an indoor antenna and since you can't mount outside makes your options very few. The best possible situtation is if you can get into the attic. If so you'll need a very good UHF antenna. Attic installs lose 50% of the antennas efficency. An Antennas Direct xg91 is small enough to fit and should do the job. You can also return it if it doesn't. You should get Philly and Wimington pointing in the one direction. If you want Baltimore and several others you'll need a rotor. The Channel Master 4228 will also do well but is much larger and may be harder to move around in the attic. When you move and may want to mount antenna outside the 4228 has a lot of wind load on a rotor. The 91XG will do much better at wind loads. Both are very good antennas and perform about equally.


If you cannot get in attic then the only MAYBE alternative is a Winegard Squareshooter. 40 + miles is a long way for it to pull but it may work. Be sure you can return it if doesn't. It must be outside for it to have a chance.


You are in Philly and Baltimores coverage areas but that's using a good outdoor antenna. The only sure solution is one of the antennas above mounted outdoors. Good Luck. Here's a few links.
http://www.antennasdirect.com/LongRangeAntennas.htm 
http://www.solidsignal.com/antennas/ 
http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm


----------



## jskibo

Thanks!


Would it be worth adding an amp to any of these to help it out?


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *Attic installs lose 50% of the antennas efficency.*



Try more like a 20db loss, or 99%.


----------



## WILDCAT NATION

Just a dumb question, but how much better performance would one expect when giving an antenna an extra 20 feet or so of Elevation?


----------



## Andrew_J_M




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by WILDCAT NATION_
> *Just a dumb question, but how much better performance would one expect when giving an antenna an extra 20 feet or so of Elevation?*



That's one of those "how long is a piece of string" questions.


If you are already in line of sight with no multipath or obstacle probelms then you won't gain anything. If raising the antenna puts it in to line of sight (there's a formula based on the distance between to point on the globe and their heights above sea level that calculates that) then the improvement can be dramatic.


----------



## Andrew_J_M

I've just found this site - http://www.vwlowen.demon.co.uk/java/horizon.htm 


It calculates line of sight distance, but you need to know the two heights above sea level and it doesn't take into account terrain and so on between the transmitting and receiving antennas.


----------



## WILDCAT NATION

This would be from 50 miles away, so my hypothesis is that it should be WAY better...


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dswallow_
> *(Speaking of attic loss) Try more like a 20db loss, or 99%.*



Well, that may be true in extreme cases. It is not, however, the norm. If you're going through normal roofing materials (plywood, asphalt shingles) the loss is about 3db, which is a 50% loss of signal strength. If you're going through stucco, though, or anything else that uses metal for support, the loss is probably closer to 99%.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by WILDCAT NATION_
> *Just a dumb question, but how much better performance would one expect when giving an antenna an extra 20 feet or so of Elevation?*



It depends on a number of factors. Sometimes, your antenna may be in a "hot spot" and moving the antenna up may move it out of that hot spot and make things worse. Nobody knows for sure where hot spots are, or how to predict them, so caveat emptor.


And "20 feet" doesn't tell us much. There is a theoretical improvement based on doubling of antenna height, somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-30db. If your initial install is 20 feet tall, and you move it up 20 feet, you could see that kind of improvement. If you're going from 60 feet to 80 feet, though, your improvement would be much less. (It is worth noting that a doubling of antenna height makes your antenna better than the best UHF antenna at the old height could possibly be.)


If your problem is reflections from ground objects, moving the antenna higher is going to help, even if gain were to stay the same.


Generally speaking, once you clear local trees by more than 10', there are no more real improvements to be made until you have line-of-sight. As others have stated, if you have line-of-sight, no real improvement can be made.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> Well, that may be true in extreme cases. It is not, however, the norm. If you're going through normal roofing materials (plywood, asphalt shingles) the loss is about 3db, which is a 50% loss of signal strength.



I think estimations of signal loss thru attic installs are often misleading & inaccurate. If I had not taken the estimates with a grain of salt and at my huge distances from the desired towers, I wouldn't even have tried an attic install. But I'm glad I was skeptical about signal loss estimates and so have had tremendous success.


I say give an attic install a shot and see what happens. You may be pleasantly surprised.


----------



## WILDCAT NATION




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *It depends on a number of factors. Sometimes, your antenna may be in a "hot spot" and moving the antenna up may move it out of that hot spot and make things worse. Nobody knows for sure where hot spots are, or how to predict them, so caveat emptor.
> 
> 
> And "20 feet" doesn't tell us much. There is a theoretical improvement based on doubling of antenna height, somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-30db. If your initial install is 20 feet tall, and you move it up 20 feet, you could see that kind of improvement. If you're going from 60 feet to 80 feet, though, your improvement would be much less. (It is worth noting that a doubling of antenna height makes your antenna better than the best UHF antenna at the old height could possibly be.)
> 
> 
> If your problem is reflections from ground objects, moving the antenna higher is going to help, even if gain were to stay the same.
> 
> 
> Generally speaking, once you clear local trees by more than 10', there are no more real improvements to be made until you have line-of-sight. As others have stated, if you have line-of-sight, no real improvement can be made.*



Basically, I'm trying to figure out how much I'm going to gain by going from about 5 feet off the ground to the top of the roof which would be more like 30 feet above ground level or so...


The reasoning is because I have no mounts up there right now...and I don't want to put any up unless I can be reasonably sure I'm going to get the results I want...


Now, if I can figure out a way of temporarily mounting it, that would be great...but I haven't figured that out yet...


----------



## gawngulfing

Well fellow OTA officianatos, I'm back. I have replaced my OTA combo antenna with a UHF my grandfather had in his attic thanks to cable.


At everyone's suggestion, I invested in a CM 7777. The good news is, with the amp and new (relatively speaking) I know have a signal. However, the bad news is, it's not strong enough, only about 45% strength.


Two questions, one, I have a 150 foot run, I could potentially shorten this by 25 feet, how much difference do you think this will make with signal strength?


Second, the antenna is a radioshack UHF only antenna about 7 foot long with "wings" that open above and below the main "beam". If it is anything like the one radioshack advertises on their website, it shouldn't have any problem picking up a signal 39 miles away. As the website says what they are selling today $23.00 has up-to a 75 mile range.


With this antenna my "memorize channels" finds 4 channels all about 45% signal. I'm just skeptical about paying $100 for a 91XG and the signal not getting any better.


Gurus??????


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gawngulfing_
> *Well fellow OTA officianatos, I'm back. I have replaced my OTA combo antenna with a UHF my grandfather had in his attic thanks to cable.
> 
> 
> At everyone's suggestion, I invested in a CM 7777. The good news is, with the amp and new (relatively speaking) I know have a signal. However, the bad news is, it's not strong enough, only about 45% strength.
> 
> 
> Two questions, one, I have a 150 foot run, I could potentially shorten this by 25 feet, how much difference do you think this will make with signal strength?
> 
> 
> Second, the antenna is a radioshack UHF only antenna about 7 foot long with "wings" that open above and below the main "beam". If it is anything like the one radioshack advertises on their website, it shouldn't have any problem picking up a signal 39 miles away. As the website says what they are selling today $23.00 has up-to a 75 mile range.
> 
> 
> With this antenna my "memorize channels" finds 4 channels all about 45% signal. I'm just skeptical about paying $100 for a 91XG and the signal not getting any better.
> 
> 
> Gurus??????*



As a rule radio shack antennas don't perform well. I have heard to take the mileage they claim and divide by 2. I do not know how true that is. I do know I tried their best combo and got nothing in the way of digitals so I returned it. My closest digitals are 40 miles my fartherest over 70. I then bought a Channel Master 3020 and did get some but not all the ones I wanted so I returned it. I then tried the Winegard HD 7084 combo mainly because of a VHF digital we have here. Finally I got almost all the stations I wanted except 2. As a last ditch effort I sprung for the 91 XG and with it being small and light I tried several different spots and finally got everything I wanted and more. I know use the 91XG for the tuff digitals and the 7084 for VHF and the easy digitals. There's about a 5 to 10 point signal difference on my 811 receiver between the 7084 and the 91xg on the same station.


I can't say for sure it will work in your situtation but if it doesn't then your not going to get it. The beauty buying from Antennas Direct they will let you return it if it doesn't work. Reducing your lead in won't make much of a difference for the amp has more then enough gain to cover the line loss. Your other option being less expensive is to get a CM 4228. It's rather large and heavy but again if it doesn't get the signal it's just not there. Return on it will be up to the place where you buy it. Be sure they allow returns before spending the bucks. It cost about half the 91xg. Maybe you should check with some neighbors what they are using. It may be the station your trying to get is at low power. If you're in one of the top 100 markets they must go full digital power by July 1 05. You may want to wait it out. You can call or email the station and they'll tell you if they are at full power or not. You can also try moving the rat shack higher and lower. Higher is not always better. Try different spots on the roof UHF only takes a few inches to make a difference in some cases.


Good luck I hope you can get something.


----------



## jimc705

 http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state...&slon2=&size=9 


Look at this link and click on the alternative map links to see if you are in Green Bay coverage area.


Wausau WHRM 90 KW low power
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DT678925.html 


high power 200 kw
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...DT1002781.html 


WAOW lo power 29.9KW
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DS606351.html 


hi power 900 kw
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DT418773.html


----------



## WILDCAT NATION

I take it the 91XG is the creme de la creme.....


If I can't get the combo that I bought to work this weekend, that will be my next step.


----------



## obsidian




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *As a last ditch effort I sprung for the 91 XG and with it being small and light I tried several different spots and finally got everything I wanted and more.*



I keep hearing everyone say that the 91xg is fairly small....am I reading it correct that it's nearly 8 ft. long? Maybe that's small for someone who's used to a tower or something, but for someone living in an association that doesn't allow outdoor antennas it's huge!







And yes, I've read the posts that legally they can't do that, etc....but it's just such a painful time consuming process to try and fight anything with these people.


Anyway....just wanted to confirm that I've reading the dimension on the 91xg right and that 8ft long = small.


----------



## Nitewatchman

XG91 is about 8' long. I don't have the info handy, but I think it's a few inches under that. 8' long seems pretty small to me for an antenna since you have to get into HF yagi size(for example, with elements ~ 30' long for 14MHZ) before I start thinking of an antenna as really being anything you could call "big", but I've certainly seem some large UHF antenna arrays ..



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *Well, that may be true in extreme cases. It is not, however, the norm. If you're going through normal roofing materials (plywood, asphalt shingles) the loss is about 3db, which is a 50% loss of signal strength. If you're going through stucco, though, or anything else that uses metal for support, the loss is probably closer to 99%.*



It's true a loss of ~3db or so is 50%(1/2) of the signal that you WERE getting. If say, you are getting 80dbu actual signal strength, 77dbu would be be about 1/2 of that, and then 1/2 of that(3db more loss) would be approx 74dbu/etc/etc. But, each 3db increment isn't really "a lot" in this case. If however, you are dealing with a weak signal, just a few db above the threshold of good DTV reception, 3db might be perceived as "a lot". "Theoretically" you should be able to get enough signal for good DTV reception(on UHF) until you get all the way down to about 41dbu actual signal strength. 41dbu is the coverage area "contour" for UHF DTV stations FCC has defined as roughly equivelent to the 64dbu UHF Grade B signal contour for analog stations. This is because DTV works with less signal for various reasons. Given a "clean" channel, 41dbu signal strength should equate to about 16db of S/N on UHF. I would expect however, a bit more than 41dbu(or 16db S/N) is required in most cases.


But, if you are not thinking about it on the "logarithmic" scale "decibel/db" uses, and are trying to apply a % figure to the "total" signal strength -- like splitting up a pie into just 2 pieces without the ability to split each piece of pie into smaller pieces(I know, but just say you can't) --- then 3db is not a "de facto" 50%(1/2) signal loss. For instance, The signal at the antenna could easily be say, 110dbu or more within a "city grade" contour of the station, 3db loss( or say ~3.5db or so insertion loss from a 2 way splitter) is obviously not going to cut the "total" signal strength in half.( by 50% ....) Thinking of it this way, If 3db were 50%(1/2) loss, than 6db would be 100% loss. But again, the "db scale" is logarithmic, using a % value is not.


Look at it this way .. If a station increases power by 2x, say from 10 KW to 20KW ERP(or from say 512KW ERP to 1 MW ERP) -- yes, it would be about the same as "getting rid" of a 2 way splitter. Each increase of power x2 gives you about 2.5db more signal. .. but, If station goes from 10KW ERP to 320KW ERP -- (5x more power) it's going to be about 12.5db more signal at the receiving antenna ...


I would say 20db loss inside in the attic compared to outside is probably a fairly good rule of thumb figure. Although as you say, there are no absolutes. If the signal path(s) from the attic to the station's tower is not blocked by, say a brick wall from a nearby building, but the outdoor antenna is, obviously, it might be the other way around ....


In 2600 field tests(some with indoor antennas compared to outdoor at 30 feet at the same residence) documented in the document "Preliminary DTV Field Test Results And Their Effects on VSB Receiver Design" available for download here in PDF format : http://www.atscforum.org/doc/FieldTestReport.pdf ,

On page 19, where it describes the indoor/outdoor antenna placement comparison tests they did with various stations there is a table which includes results for "outdoor to indoor signal attenuation". It reports an average from the tests for the 5 different stations for which they did indoor antenna vs. outdoor antenna comparisons as ranging from 9.5 to 13.5db signal attenuation by placing the antenna indoors. Note that when they did test the antenna indoors, it was often from a spot that provided "good" reception from the 1st floor of house -- The signals coming through windows, for example were likely not attenuated as much as what you would get in an attic.


You can find more info about how they conducted the tests in the document itself, but here's a short quote about the indoor antenna field tests for WGN Chicago from page 20 which should tell you a little :


"A comparison of the outdoor field strength at 30 feet height with that received inside the homes (all on first floors) yielded a median house attenuation loss of about 12.5 dB. The median tap margin increased by about 4 dB to about –12 dB due to the increased multipath, while median margin decreased by about 20 dB to about 23 dB, mostly due to field strength attenuation and partly due to increased static and dynamic multipath."


:end quote


Now -- Let's say you are dealing with a "not so strong" signal, or a signal that is plagued by "noise" from co-channel interference, adjacent channel interference, intermod from an overloaded preamp/etc/etc. So, lets say You're getting a high reading on your signal quality meter -- say 90%. You put a 2 way splitter in the line, and the signal goes below the threshold required for good DTV reception(theoretically about 16db S/N), the meter drops to low readings you get "dropouts"(or blank screen), or, a analog station begins getting "snowy", which would probably indicate you are then getting less than about 64dbu signal strength for UHF stations - less is required for VHF because the overall NF is lower for various reasons. In this case, I can definitely understand why someone might interpret that as 2 way splitter, or ~3db attenuation is adding a LOT of signal loss.


However -- Lets say you are dealing with a "blow torch" signal instead. For instance -- Here, I can add as much as 30~40db of extra attenuation in the feedline before the "signal quality readings" from the receiver(s) for the high power, nearby(12~32 miles) locals even START to drop, or the analog signals start to get a little snowy. On UHF side, that's with XG91 antenna at 40ft used w/Winegard AC-4990 UHF only(older model) mast mount preamp+with tunable traps after the power supply to keep some extra strong analog locals from overloading tuner. It would probably be better if the traps were before the preamp, but In my case, luckily, the preamp isn't overloading from what I can tell ... I of course have this setup(seperate VHF antenna setup as well) for more distant or weak stations, its way more than I need for the strong locals ....


With a simple indoor antenna(pretty close to a "reference" dipole) on the other hand, It only takes between about 3~7db of "extra" attenuation added into the feedline to lose reception from those digital stations which put in a strong signal to the outdoor antenna. Getting a good quality pic from most nearby analog stations(snow mostly, but some ghosting/multipath problems as well) from indoors is for the most part impossible in any case. I am down in a small, steep valley, which "knocks things down" quite a bit in any case as opposed to if I were on "flat" or high ground - with indoor or outdoor antenna on tower ..


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by obsidian_
> *I keep hearing everyone say that the 91xg is fairly small....am I reading it correct that it's nearly 8 ft. long? Maybe that's small for someone who's used to a tower or something, but for someone living in an association that doesn't allow outdoor antennas it's huge!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, I've read the posts that legally they can't do that, etc....but it's just such a painful time consuming process to try and fight anything with these people.
> 
> 
> Anyway....just wanted to confirm that I've reading the dimension on the 91xg right and that 8ft long = small.*



It's 7' 9'' long. It's all a matter of perspective I guess. My UHF section currently consists of stacked Triax Unix 100 A's which are over 3M each. Size matters with antennas.


----------



## tokerblue

I recently bought a Zenith Silver Sensor and it's been working great with the UHF stations in my area, but I am not always getting a strong signal. Would this amplifier help me get a stronger signal for only existing signals, or would it help me pick up stations better? I'm a little confused on the whole thing.

http://www.buy.com/retail/product.as...5&loc=111&sp=1 


Another quick question. Is there some kind of splitter that I can use to hook up two antennas to my tuner? I have a Radio Shack 1870 that works well with some of the VHF channels. I want to try and avoid plugging/unplugging antennas for only a few channels.


----------



## snookboy

Well, I hope everyone can stand one more plea for help. I can't thank everyone on this forum for all the help I have received over the last six months as I have attempted to put together a HT. I am having a problem getting all my locals OTA, but from reading this thread I'm pretty confident I can resolve it. Just want to get it right the first time.


Here is my situation. I am in Miami and my digital stations are as follows:


*yellow - uhf WSCV-DT 51.1 TEL FORT LAUD 22° 27.0 52


*yellow - uhf WTVJ-DT 6.1 NBC MIAMI FL 19° 25.5 31


*yellow - uhf WLRN-DT 17.1 PBS MIAMI FL 22° 26.6 20


*yellow - uhf WLTV-DT 23.1 UNI MIAMI FL 19° 25.5 24


*yellow - uhf WFOR-DT 4.1 CBS MIAMI FL 19° 25.5 22


*yellow - uhf WAMI-DT 69.1 TFA HOLLYWOOD 22° 27.1 47


*green - uhf WPXM-DT 35.1 PAX MIAMI FL 22° 27.1 26


*lt green - uhf WBZL-DT 39.1 WB MIAMI FL 19° 25.5 19


*red - uhf WBFS-DT 33.1 UPN MIAMI FL 20° 25.6 32


*red - uhf WPBT-DT 2.1 PBS MIAMI FL 20° 24.9 18


*blue - vhf WSVN-DT 7.1 FOX MIAMI FL 20° 25.3 8


*blue - vhf WPLG-DT 10.1 ABC MIAMI FL 20° 25.5 9


*violet - uhf WHDT-DT 44 IND MIAMI FL 20° 25.8 44



The only stations that are must have are 4,6,7,& 10, the four major networks. I signed up with VOOM a few weeks ago (yeah, I know, just in time for it to be sold) and they put up a small amplified outdoor antenna. 4 and 6 are fine. 7 and 10 are very marginal. I am right on the borderline of getting them. Sometimes I get both, sometimes I get neither, often they pixilate. As you can see, 7 and 10 are both VHF. But all four are under 30 miles away, only one degree off, and I really don't have any major obstructions in the flat landscape of South Florida.


I have about a 100 cable run. Couple of questions. VOOM has the OTA antenna and the dish running on the same cable. Wouldn't I be better off running separate cables for the antenna and the dish?


From reading this thread, I am thinking about the Channel Master 4228 as it has been stated as a very good UHF _and_ a good high VHF, which is what I need. (or it seems to me anyway) Coupled with a 7777 preamp, I'm thinking I should be good to go.


Am I thinking along the right lines? Would this get the job done for me? Or would anyone suggest something better? I am in a single story house and it would mount outside at 20 feet, relatively unobstructed. Any and all insight would be greatly appreciated. Especially since the superbowl in on channel 7 in a mere two weeks!! Thanks again.


----------



## Brett_FL

I live in Sebring and have no problem picking up my ABC, FOX, and NBC stations from Tampa 50-55 mile range. The closest CBS WINK in FT, Myers is non HD yet and falls in that same range so I should be good once they get their act together. In the meantime I have been getting CBS stations from Orlando(6) and WTSP in Holiday (N.W. Tampa) on a hit and miss signal both of these are 80-90 miles away the WTSP being the further but seems to come in better most times. I currently have the $99.00 combo antenna from RS and a CM-7777 about 30' above the ground. My question is what can I do to try and lock in The CBS station do I need to go higher or get a different antenna? I live on a lake and have a clear shot for the most part towards the Tampa area.


Thanks


----------



## Apesbrain

All of my local DTV stations are within 358 - 2 degrees at a distance of 15 miles. I am on the second floor of a stud frame house. TV is positioned against an outside wall.


Do you think I'll be ok with a good indoor antenna such as the Terk HDTVi sitting right on top of the TV?


Thanks.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by snookboy_
> *Well, I hope everyone can stand one more plea for help. I can't thank everyone on this forum for all the help I have received over the last six months as I have attempted to put together a HT. I am having a problem getting all my locals OTA, but from reading this thread I'm pretty confident I can resolve it. Just want to get it right the first time.
> 
> 
> Here is my situation. I am in Miami and my digital stations are as follows:
> 
> 
> *yellow - uhf WSCV-DT 51.1 TEL FORT LAUD 22° 27.0 52
> 
> 
> *yellow - uhf WTVJ-DT 6.1 NBC MIAMI FL 19° 25.5 31
> 
> 
> *yellow - uhf WLRN-DT 17.1 PBS MIAMI FL 22° 26.6 20
> 
> 
> *yellow - uhf WLTV-DT 23.1 UNI MIAMI FL 19° 25.5 24
> 
> 
> *yellow - uhf WFOR-DT 4.1 CBS MIAMI FL 19° 25.5 22
> 
> 
> *yellow - uhf WAMI-DT 69.1 TFA HOLLYWOOD 22° 27.1 47
> 
> 
> *green - uhf WPXM-DT 35.1 PAX MIAMI FL 22° 27.1 26
> 
> 
> *lt green - uhf WBZL-DT 39.1 WB MIAMI FL 19° 25.5 19
> 
> 
> *red - uhf WBFS-DT 33.1 UPN MIAMI FL 20° 25.6 32
> 
> 
> *red - uhf WPBT-DT 2.1 PBS MIAMI FL 20° 24.9 18
> 
> 
> *blue - vhf WSVN-DT 7.1 FOX MIAMI FL 20° 25.3 8
> 
> 
> *blue - vhf WPLG-DT 10.1 ABC MIAMI FL 20° 25.5 9
> 
> 
> *violet - uhf WHDT-DT 44 IND MIAMI FL 20° 25.8 44
> 
> 
> 
> The only stations that are must have are 4,6,7,& 10, the four major networks. I signed up with VOOM a few weeks ago (yeah, I know, just in time for it to be sold) and they put up a small amplified outdoor antenna. 4 and 6 are fine. 7 and 10 are very marginal. I am right on the borderline of getting them. Sometimes I get both, sometimes I get neither, often they pixilate. As you can see, 7 and 10 are both VHF. But all four are under 30 miles away, only one degree off, and I really don't have any major obstructions in the flat landscape of South Florida.
> 
> 
> I have about a 100 cable run. Couple of questions. VOOM has the OTA antenna and the dish running on the same cable. Wouldn't I be better off running separate cables for the antenna and the dish?
> 
> 
> From reading this thread, I am thinking about the Channel Master 4228 as it has been stated as a very good UHF and a good high VHF, which is what I need. (or it seems to me anyway) Coupled with a 7777 preamp, I'm thinking I should be good to go.
> 
> 
> Am I thinking along the right lines? Would this get the job done for me? Or would anyone suggest something better? I am in a single story house and it would mount outside at 20 feet, relatively unobstructed. Any and all insight would be greatly appreciated. Especially since the superbowl in on channel 7 in a mere two weeks!! Thanks again.*



Yes you pretty much have it correct. However a 4221 will do at only 30 miles. The 4228 may get you some of the other channels you are looking for.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by tokerblue_
> *I recently bought a Zenith Silver Sensor and it's been working great with the UHF stations in my area, but I am not always getting a strong signal. Would this amplifier help me get a stronger signal for only existing signals, or would it help me pick up stations better? I'm a little confused on the whole thing.
> 
> http://www.buy.com/retail/product.as...5&loc=111&sp=1
> 
> 
> Another quick question. Is there some kind of splitter that I can use to hook up two antennas to my tuner? I have a Radio Shack 1870 that works well with some of the VHF channels. I want to try and avoid plugging/unplugging antennas for only a few channels.*



The amp is dirstrubution amp with very litlle gain and a lot of noise. It will not help coming from the antenna. That type of amp is used to split the signal to different TV's after you have enough signal.


You can join the the VHF/UHF antennas to gether by using a band seprator/joiner. They are avaliable at radio shack. You can also use an A/B

switch if you prefer.

http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...t%5Fid=15-1252


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Brett_FL_
> *I live in Sebring and have no problem picking up my ABC, FOX, and NBC stations from Tampa 50-55 mile range. The closest CBS WINK in FT, Myers is non HD yet and falls in that same range so I should be good once they get their act together. In the meantime I have been getting CBS stations from Orlando(6) and WTSP in Holiday (N.W. Tampa) on a hit and miss signal both of these are 80-90 miles away the WTSP being the further but seems to come in better most times. I currently have the $99.00 combo antenna from RS and a CM-7777 about 30' above the ground. My question is what can I do to try and lock in The CBS station do I need to go higher or get a different antenna? I live on a lake and have a clear shot for the most part towards the Tampa area.
> 
> 
> Thanks*



You are well outside of the Tampa coverage area. You still may have a shot but you'll need the best UHF made. That would be the Antennas Direct 91XG , DB8 or Channel Master 4228. More height will probably help some at 90 miles the curvuture of the earth is killing you. If you elect to try another combo go with the Winegard 8200 or CM 3671. The UHF only will do a slightly better job. Good Luck you're going to need it. 90 miles is about all you can expect from any antenna.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Apesbrain_
> *All of my local DTV stations are within 358 - 2 degrees at a distance of 15 miles. I am on the second floor of a stud frame house. TV is positioned against an outside wall.
> 
> 
> Do you think I'll be ok with a good indoor antenna such as the Terk HDTVi sitting right on top of the TV?
> 
> 
> Thanks.*



You may have a chance but stay away from the TERK antennas. They do not perform well. The Zenith silver sensor is on of the best for indoor reception.


----------



## tokerblue




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *The amp is dirstrubution amp with very litlle gain and a lot of noise. It will not help coming from the antenna. That type of amp is used to split the signal to different TV's after you have enough signal.
> 
> 
> You can join the the VHF/UHF antennas to gether by using a band seprator/joiner. They are avaliable at radio shack. You can also use an A/B
> 
> switch if you prefer.
> 
> http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...t%5Fid=15-1252 *



> Thanks, I'll take a look at that joiner. Does using the joiner degrade the signal in any way? Also, do you know if there are any amps around that would work well with the Silver Sensor?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by tokerblue_
> *> Thanks, I'll take a look at that joiner. Does using the joiner degrade the signal in any way? Also, do you know if there are any amps around that would work well with the Silver Sensor?*



A good vhf/uhf diplexer will have only around .5db loss which is insignificant. The CM 0549 diplexer is very good. http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm 

The RS product recommended to you above was I think a mistake. It has 300 ohm connections which you don't want.


Using a preamplifier will usually be most important with a long cable run. With the silver sensor in the same room as your TV it's not likely to make a difference. If you need more signal than the silver sensor provides, you're better off going outdoors with something like a CM 4221.


----------



## minnow31

Not sure what antenna I need to make OTA work for me. I did the antennaweb.org thing and it told me to get a "red" type antenna. All of my channels fell into this category. I am within 20 miles of all of them in small market but have many trees in my area, all near the house, some 100' tall.

Basically, I need three channels:


channel 6 72 degrees

channel 53 185 degrees

channel 47 214 degrees


Any advice as to what specific antenna would suit my needs?


thanks for any suggestions!


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by minnow31_
> *Not sure what antenna I need to make OTA work for me. I did the antennaweb.org thing and it told me to get a "red" type antenna. All of my channels fell into this category. I am within 20 miles of all of them in small market but have many trees in my area, all near the house, some 100' tall.
> 
> Basically, I need three channels:
> 
> 
> channel 6 72 degrees
> 
> channel 53 185 degrees
> 
> channel 47 214 degrees
> 
> 
> Any advice as to what specific antenna would suit my needs?
> 
> 
> thanks for any suggestions!*



Assuming you're in the Lansing area, those stations' digitals are 51,59 ,38 (all uhf). A CM 4221 or Antennasdirect DB4 should do very well either outside (best) or in your attic. You may need a rotor as well if those bearings hold for the digitals (they may not). Go to http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp and punch in your coordinates for bearings to your stations. You might have luck indoors with the silver sensor or RS indoor antenna. http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D1880 


The Lansing part of the local threads here would be a good place for info:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hlight=lansing 

Also try http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/...tion.asp?m=lan 

Click on the analog station's "complete FCC info" for everything on the analog and digital.


----------



## tokerblue




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *A good vhf/uhf diplexer will have only around .5db loss which is insignificant. The CM 0549 diplexer is very good. http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm
> 
> The RS product recommended to you above was I think a mistake. It has 300 ohm connections which you don't want.*



> Thank you so much for your help. The AVS forums have been an absolutely incredible tool for me.










I found a diplexer that the DirecTV installer left behind. It's a Cable-Tronix Diplexer and has a range of 40-2300 MHz. The two inputs are marked as U/V ANT and SAT. There is a line labeled DC Pass on the SAT input. Can I use this diplexer for the VHF and UHF antenna? Is there any reason that I can't put the VHF antenna into the SAT input?


----------



## gawngulfing

OK, I give up. My local cable company carries HD service. Just found out it's only 6.95/mo.


My UHF antenna that my grandfather gifted me from Radio Shack doesn't have enough gain, even with my CM 7777. Although the CM 7777 made a substantial difference over the signal I was getting before I tried it.


So for anyone out there that needs/wants a CM 7777 let me know, I used it one afternoon, long enough to find out that I still need a different antenna. Can't see sending $100 on an antenna when I can get a year's service though the cable company for $85 locally. I'll sell it for 10% less than I paid. $50 including S&H. Used for 2 hours.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by tokerblue_
> *> Thank you so much for your help. The AVS forums have been an absolutely incredible tool for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I found a diplexer that the DirecTV installer left behind. It's a Cable-Tronix Diplexer and has a range of 40-2300 MHz. The two inputs are marked as U/V ANT and SAT. There is a line labeled DC Pass on the SAT input. Can I use this diplexer for the VHF and UHF antenna? Is there any reason that I can't put the VHF antenna into the SAT input?*



That will not work. Sat signal is 950 to 1450 MHZ. UHF is below that. That can only be used to diplex a sat signal with a VHF and/ or UHF antenna.


----------



## tokerblue




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *That will not work. Sat signal is 950 to 1450 MHZ. UHF is below that. That can only be used to diplex a sat signal with a VHF and/ or UHF antenna.*



> Do you know any B&M stores that carry the diplexer that I would need? I'm placing an order on buy.com in a few days and came up with these in a search. I'm not sure if any of these would work.

http://www.buy.com/retail/product.as...2&loc=111&sp=1 
http://www.buy.com/retail/product.as...3&loc=111&sp=1 
http://www.buy.com/retail/product.as...1&loc=111&sp=1


----------



## daoust501

I'm hoping someone can help me in time for the Super Bowl. Zip code is 07946, trying to get FOX from NYC about 29 miles away. I can't get outside to put the DB4 antenna on the roof (cold, snow and ice, and I'm a wuss) so I'm trying the attic. I get a signal that, according to my 921 receiver, bounces all over the place (70,66,53,0,7,66,70) but it does lock and aquire. The cable run is about 60 feet, and I have the antenna right against an attic window pointing east to NYC, though there are large oak trees in front of the house. I was up and down trying all kinds of adjustments, but nothing seemed to help. Would an amplifier help, or do I need to keep attempting to find the right spot? Thanks in advance.


----------



## greywolf

What you need is most commonly referred to as a UHF/VHF splitter joiner or UVSJ. Radio Shack is one good bet for a B&M store. Tell them you need the part that combines a VHF antenna's coax to a UHF antenna's coax.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by daoust501_
> *I get a signal that, according to my 921 receiver, bounces all over the place (70,66,53,0,7,66,70) but it does lock and aquire. ...Would an amplifier help, or do I need to keep attempting to find the right spot?*



I'd try a variable attenuator from Radio Shack. The bouncing signal is probably the result of multipath.


----------



## daoust501




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *I'd try a variable attenuator from Radio Shack. The bouncing signal is probably the result of multipath.*




Thanks a heap. The only one I see on the RS web site that looks variable is the "TV/CATV Attenuator". Is that the correct part? Sorry for my ignorance, but I'm very new to all of this.


----------



## snookboy




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *Yes you pretty much have it correct. However a 4221 will do at only 30 miles. The 4228 may get you some of the other channels you are looking for.*



As my problem stations are VHF, would I not be better with the 3671 which is a VHF/UHF/FM combo than the 4228/4221? Thanks.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by tokerblue_
> *> Do you know any B&M stores that carry the diplexer that I would need? I'm placing an order on buy.com in a few days and came up with these in a search. I'm not sure if any of these would work.
> 
> http://www.buy.com/retail/product.as...2&loc=111&sp=1
> http://www.buy.com/retail/product.as...3&loc=111&sp=1
> http://www.buy.com/retail/product.as...1&loc=111&sp=1 *



Stark has the CM 0549: http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm 


RS makes one: http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...t%5Fid=15-2587 but I couldn't find any specs on it.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by daoust501_
> *Thanks a heap. The only one I see on the RS web site that looks variable is the "TV/CATV Attenuator". Is that the correct part? Sorry for my ignorance, but I'm very new to all of this.*



That's it. http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...ct%5Fid=15-678


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by daoust501_
> *Thanks a heap. The only one I see on the RS web site that looks variable is the "TV/CATV Attenuator". Is that the correct part? Sorry for my ignorance, but I'm very new to all of this.*



That's it.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by snookboy_
> *As my problem stations are VHF, would I not be better with the 3671 which is a VHF/UHF/FM combo than the 4228/4221? Thanks.*



Here's the deal. You are primarily trying to receive UHF stations, and you have a pair of hi-VHF stations on channels 8 and 9. All the channels are about 30 miles away, and they're all within a couple of degrees of each other. Your terrain is mostly flat. I think the vast majority of us are drooling over your problem. 


I would get a medium VHF/UHF combo like the Channel Master 3018 ( http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/3018.htm ) rather than getting a monster like the 3671. The 3671 would work, no doubt about it. But it's going to take a solid mount because it's so big. It's also double the price, and will cost more to ship if you don't have a local source.


Skip the preamplifier. You're close enough that it shouldn't be necessary, and might even make things worse.


If you get a UHF-only antenna and intend to use it for VHF, you'll likely need a rotor as the VHF gain pattern is often skewed 45 degrees away from the UHF gain pattern. It *might* work when aimed directly at the towers, but then again, it might not. Why chance it?


I had this antenna ( http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/hd7084p.htm ) on my rooftop, and I'm in a tree-filled neighborhood and in a sunken valley and found it performed perfectly for channels that were within 45 miles. The 3018 is a similar antenna. Either one should be *more than* enough. It's up to you if you want to try to go smaller.


Only after getting that antenna up there and determining that you're getting a lot of snow on analog channels should you consider a preamplifier.


----------



## r royer

Hi, I'm just getting into this and want to know:

With my dish 301 receiver, any signal I get with a UHF antenna should be representative of what the reception would be for HD (since it's a digital signal) is that correct? I'm asking because I want to see if I can get any HD using OTA in my area BEFORE I waste a lot of money getting an HD receiver, etc.

Thanks

Rich


----------



## daoust501




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *That's it.*



As far as I can tell, that didn't do the trick. If I turn it to MIN, I have the same problem with the bouncing signal strength. As I turn it toward MAX, the zero signal strength stays longer and longer. At MAX, I get a steady zero, and from there if I move the antenna around, I still get zero. Any other suggestions?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by r royer_
> *Hi, I'm just getting into this and want to know:
> 
> With my dish 301 receiver, any signal I get with a UHF antenna should be representative of what the reception would be for HD (since it's a digital signal) is that correct? I'm asking because I want to see if I can get any HD using OTA in my area BEFORE I waste a lot of money getting an HD receiver, etc.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Rich*



If your analog reception is decent and relatively ghost and snow free, it's likely the digital will follow. I'm not sure exactly what that particular receiver does and I'm assuming you're talking about NTSC (analog) reception.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by daoust501_
> *As far as I can tell, that didn't do the trick. If I turn it to MIN, I have the same problem with the bouncing signal strength. As I turn it toward MAX, the zero signal strength stays longer and longer. At MAX, I get a steady zero, and from there if I move the antenna around, I still get zero. Any other suggestions?*



Go to http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp and put in your coordinates for exact bearings to the towers. A neat site to get your exact lat/long is http://terraserver.microsoft.com/. Once you're sure you've aimed properly (and if that doesn't work) you might consider a preamp such as the Antennasdirect PA16 (doesn't pass VHF though). If you need VHF go with one of the lower gain Winegard models. The AP 4700, AP 8700 I think would work. You need somewhere around 15 db gain UHF and the same for VHF or at least VHF passing capability if you need VHF. I think the only digital is VHF 8 PBS in your area but there are other UHF PBS stations there as well.


If that doesn't work and you have to stay in your attic you'll have to go with a larger antenna (DB8, CM 4228). I'm sure the DB4 would work outside, though. Surely the weather will break sometime in the next two weeks.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by r royer_
> *Hi, I'm just getting into this and want to know:
> 
> With my dish 301 receiver, any signal I get with a UHF antenna should be representative of what the reception would be for HD (since it's a digital signal) is that correct? I'm asking because I want to see if I can get any HD using OTA in my area BEFORE I waste a lot of money getting an HD receiver, etc.
> *



You can't get anything on UHF with your Dish 301 receiver. It does not have an over-the-air tuner, digital or otherwise.


If your analog UHF signals look good on your television (which probably has a tuner unless it's a plasma screen,) the odds are good that you will get reliable digital reception as well. If, however, your reception is very snowy or has a lot of ghosting, you will probably have some problems with reception. All of this assumes that your local stations are broadcasting digitally on UHF (not all are) and that all of them are at full power (not all are) and that their coverage areas are similar to their analog one (not all are.)


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by daoust501_
> *As far as I can tell, that didn't do the trick. If I turn it to MIN, I have the same problem with the bouncing signal strength. As I turn it toward MAX, the zero signal strength stays longer and longer. At MAX, I get a steady zero, and from there if I move the antenna around, I still get zero. Any other suggestions?*



You probably need A) a better antenna or B) a better location (i.e. outside.) Cpcat had some good advice, though I'd shy away from a preamp at your distance.


----------



## GaryK

I have a new Dish 921 receiver. I want to add OTA to it. I saw others here use the CM4228, so I got one with a CM7775 preamp/amp. I live in the middle of Long Island and others from this forum get a signal.

I tried to get a feel for the setup by trying a temporary connection in my den before I move it to the attic.

Using the 921 signal meter, mostly I am NOT getting any signal.

However once in a while I see a 1 second flash of a signal on the meter. It goes up to about 65%.


I am new to this and I am at a lose what to try next.


Any ideas???


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by GaryK_
> *I have a new Dish 921 receiver. I want to add OTA to it. I saw others here use the CM4228, so I got one with a CM7775 preamp/amp. I live in the middle of Long Island and others from this forum get a signal.
> 
> I tried to get a feel for the setup by trying a temporary connection in my den before I move it to the attic.
> 
> Using the 921 signal meter, mostly I am NOT getting any signal.
> 
> However once in a while I see a 1 second flash of a signal on the meter. It goes up to about 65%.
> 
> 
> I am new to this and I am at a lose what to try next.
> 
> 
> Any ideas???*



If you really want to do a "dry run" so to speak, get significant RG6 to run up to your attic (up the stairs, down the hall, whatever) then you have a valid test. A few posts up I provided links to get your bearings to the towers. Aiming is very important and the 4228 is very directional.


FYI the 7775 will not pass VHF signals.


----------



## daoust501




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *You probably need A) a better antenna or B) a better location (i.e. outside.) Cpcat had some good advice, though I'd shy away from a preamp at your distance.*



I'm going to go with option A. I'll upgrade to the DB8 and see what I see. Will post back to let you know if it makes a difference. Thanks to all for the help.


----------



## r royer

Thanks for the input guys.

Rroyer


----------



## ElVee




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ElVee_*
> 
> Is there such a thing as overkill? Because of my proximity to NYC (2 miles from ESB), can I have 'too much' antenna?*
> 
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *For all practical purposes, no. A larger antenna will be more directional, which may mean that your aim needs to be more precise. But the only way to overdrive the signal is to use an amplifier, which at your distance is not recommended.
> *



Just to clarify my intentions, I was thing about getting a 'deep fringe' antenna mounted on a rotater to be able to pick up stations in either Philly, LI or CT as well as the NYC stations.


Are you saying an antenna this large will not have a negative effect on my receiving NYC stations?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ElVee_
> *Just to clarify my intentions, I was thing about getting a 'deep fringe' antenna mounted on a rotater to be able to pick up stations in either Philly, LI or CT as well as the NYC stations.
> 
> 
> Are you saying an antenna this large will not have a negative effect on my receiving NYC stations?*



That is correct. You will not be able to use a preamplifier (or any amplifier) to boost weak, distant signals, as the local ones will be too strong (even when aimed in the "wrong" direction) to permit any of the boosting power to go to the weaker stations.


----------



## ElVee




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *That is correct. You will not be able to use a preamplifier (or any amplifier) to boost weak, distant signals, as the local ones will be too strong (even when aimed in the "wrong" direction) to permit any of the boosting power to go to the weaker stations.*



That's okay. I'm fine with not using an amp or pre-amp. I just didn't want to mess up my local NYC reception by trying to pull in the more distant stations. According to antennaweb.org, the Philly stations are 78 miles away.


I've decided on the Channel Master 9521A rotator. Now I have to decide on an antenna. I'm looking at the Channel Master Crossfire CM3671 and the Advantage 3020.


Any advice?


----------



## jimsiff

I'm looking for outdoor antenna advice. I live in Beaverton, Oregon and I'm about 6.5 miles from the transmitters in Portland. There are some large trees nearby and antennaweb says I need a red antenna.


Currently I'm using a Terk HDTVi indoors and I get the HD channels most of the time. There are too many dropouts to be acceptable. When spring gets here and leaves start coming back I'm afraid my signal will be further degraded.


I was thinking of a Channel Master 4221 or 4228 with or without a Titan 7775 preamp. My cable run will be about 60' of RG6. Would the 4221 be adequate for my location given that I already get okay reception indoors with the Terk? Will my 60' cable run drop my signal enough so I'd need the preamp?


I could go all out and get the 4228, but it's pretty big and obnoxious looking. I'd rather go with the 4221 if it will work, but I don't want to regret it with spring/summer signal loss due to new foliage/leaves.


Thanks for any info...


----------



## jimc705

The 4221 will do the job easily. Do not use an amp!! You are much too close for an amp it will cause overload and you'll lose all signals. If you have stations in diffrent directions you may need a rotor. 4221 is directional but not as much as the 4228.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ElVee_
> *That's okay. I'm fine with not using an amp or pre-amp. I just didn't want to mess up my local NYC reception by trying to pull in the more distant stations. According to antennaweb.org, the Philly stations are 78 miles away.
> 
> 
> I've decided on the Channel Master 9521A rotator. Now I have to decide on an antenna. I'm looking at the Channel Master Crossfire CM3671 and the Advantage 3020.
> 
> 
> Any advice?*



The 3671 is a better choice then the 3020.


----------



## cgorra

It always bothers me when I see people suggest the Channel Master Advantage line of antennas because they are so far inferior to the Crossfire line: The Channel Master 3018 is part of the Advantage line, and uses a primative mounting system with space-stealing lower supports, and has very poor low-band VHF performance. If you need to use a meduim-to-fringe all-channel model, consider the Channel Master Crossfire 3679, the Winegard HD7082P, or the Wade-Delhi VU933SR with the optional VU8PZ powerzoom UHF attachment. All of these antennas are better designed and constructed than the Advantage series, and will last longer in most installations. Addditionally, the low-band VHF and UHF performance of these antennas far surpass that even the Advantage 3020 will give you. Yes, the Advantage antennas are cheap, but you get what you pay for, and I, for one, would rather not have to replace antennas every 3 or 4 years!


----------



## Richard Fuller

Okay guys Superbowl is rapidly approaching and I need to replace my antenna to pick up FOX 50. I'm 45 miles from the towers(Oxford) and now am using a Radio Shack VU-120XR. It was suppose to be good up to 90 miles UHF well it isn't. I have the Channel Master 4228 antenna with the Channel Master 7775 pre-amp should this do the trick. There is no major obstruction in the way and with the old antenna I only picked up FOX very sparingly.Will this do the trick for me(only thing I wish is I could of got it up during all those 60 and 70 degree days)


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Richard Fuller_
> *Okay guys Superbowl is rapidly approaching and I need to replace my antenna to pick up FOX 50. I'm 45 miles from the towers(Oxford) and now am using a Radio Shack VU-120XR. It was suppose to be good up to 90 miles UHF well it isn't. I have the Channel Master 4228 antenna with the Channel Master 7775 pre-amp should this do the trick. There is no major obstruction in the way and with the old antenna I only picked up FOX very sparingly.Will this do the trick for me(only thing I wish is I could of got it up during all those 60 and 70 degree days)*



Couldn't find Oxford on this map http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DS608785.html which is the coverage area for that station's 200kw STA but if you're within 45 miles you should be inside it. It's actually on channel 49. The 4228 should give you a really good shot at it depending on your terrain, antenna height, etc.


----------



## ElVee




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *The 3671 is a better choice then the 3020.*



Thanks. I think I'll go with the 3671. Since this is a replacement for my current Winegard GS-1100, it can use the same RG-6 already installed. So, in addition to buying the 3671 and 9521A rotator, I guess the only other thing I need to buy is some rotator wire and I'm all set.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ElVee_
> *According to antennaweb.org, the Philly stations are 78 miles away.
> 
> 
> I'm looking at the Channel Master Crossfire CM3671 and the Advantage 3020.
> *



Since you're already getting a rotor, I wouldn't get a VHF/UHF combo antenna. For the NYC stuff, any UHF antenna should be able to get hi-VHF (aimed off by about 60-90 degrees, though) just fine. And *no* combo antenna is as good as the UHF-only antennas for UHF performance.


78 miles is pushing the realm of the possible. Maybe if you're up relatively high compared to surrounding terrain, and don't have any major hills between the two antennas, you'd have a chance. I'm about that from my target stations and I have an AntennasDirect91XG with a 28db preamp and I still don't get most of the stations reliable enough to watch on a regular basis. VHF signals should reach that far, though, but I don't think any Philly stations are broadcasting digitally on VHF right now (and probably the only two to do so after the shutoff would be WCAU and WHYY.)


Avoid bowtie-style antennas with a rotor. The windload is too extreme. Unless you add a support bearing, that is. Then you could be fine with even the DB8 or CM4228.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Richard Fuller_
> *I'm 45 miles from the towers(Oxford) and now am using a Radio Shack VU-120XR. It was suppose to be good up to 90 miles UHF well it isn't. I have the Channel Master 4228 antenna with the Channel Master 7775 pre-amp should this do the trick. There is no major obstruction in the way and with the old antenna I only picked up FOX very sparingly.*



Take Radio Shack's mileage ratings and divide by 2, unless you're trying to receive a station over a warm body of water. At 45 miles, you're right on the edge of that antenna's performance.


The 4228 is a much better antenna. Radio Shack would rate it for 120 miles minimum. And if you haven't been using a preamplifier, adding the 7775 will make a huge difference, as well. There are no guarantees in this business, however. There are better performers at channel 50 than the bowtie design, but the differences are slight.


----------



## ElVee




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *Since you're already getting a rotor, I wouldn't get a VHF/UHF combo antenna. For the NYC stuff, any UHF antenna should be able to get hi-VHF (aimed off by about 60-90 degrees, though) just fine. And *no* combo antenna is as good as the UHF-only antennas for UHF performance.
> 
> 
> 78 miles is pushing the realm of the possible. Maybe if you're up relatively high compared to surrounding terrain, and don't have any major hills between the two antennas, you'd have a chance. I'm about that from my target stations and I have an AntennasDirect91XG with a 28db preamp and I still don't get most of the stations reliable enough to watch on a regular basis. VHF signals should reach that far, though, but I don't think any Philly stations are broadcasting digitally on VHF right now (and probably the only two to do so after the shutoff would be WCAU and WHYY.)
> 
> 
> Avoid bowtie-style antennas with a rotor. The windload is too extreme. Unless you add a support bearing, that is. Then you could be fine with even the DB8 or CM4228.*



I appreciate all the help.


I'm so confused.










I'm in a 4 story house. The antenna is about 50' off the ground.


With my current Wingard GS-1100, pointed to about 90 degrees, I always get channel 4, 5 (on 38.4), 9 (on 38.3) and 11. I sometimes get channel 2 or channel 7 - never both - depending on if I move the antenna slightly to either 70 or 116 degrees. I never get channel 13 or 21.


My first priority is to get all of my NYC locals. I'm sure that if I just put my current antenna on the rotator I'd get that. The only reason I'm considering a bigger antenna is to try to see what else I can pull in.


----------



## cgorra

If you are considering using a Channel Master 4228 and a preamplifier, I suggest that you use the Titan 7777 rather than the Titan 7775 UHF only preamp: You will find that the 4228 does a reasonably good job on high-band VHF signals, and the Titan 7777, being a VHF-UHF preamp will help you get the high-band VHF signals that the 7775 would ignore. Since there is only about $4-5 dollars difference in price between the two preamps, it makes sense to use the 7777. Or consider the Winegard AP8275 as an alternative


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ElVee_
> *My first priority is to get all of my NYC locals. I'm sure that if I just put my current antenna on the rotator I'd get that. The only reason I'm considering a bigger antenna is to try to see what else I can pull in.*



There's nothing wrong with the hobbyist side of things. I love to see what I can pull in, and this changes with weather conditions and tropospheric ducting. I've gotten digital locks over 250 miles away on UHF stations, when the air was just right. I just wouldn't count on any stations coming in beyond about 60 (maybe 65 miles) on a regular basis, no matter what antenna you use. Even that may be pressing things because you won't be able to use a preamplifier, the normal tool for long-distance reception. Then again, if you're situated just right, getting those distant signals might be easier than it was for me.


Good luck!


----------



## TheDPR

I've got an old Radio Shack antenna on my roof with rg59 cable running down into the house. There's a 20db UHF pre-amp on it.


Right now I can get the HD Fox station that is broadcasting at a fairly low level, but the signal is weak and at least once every few minutes the picture breaks up for 5 to 10 seconds and then comes back. Will replacing the rg59 cable with rg6 probably help with that?


I


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by TheDPR_
> *I've got an old Radio Shack antenna on my roof with rg59 cable running down into the house. There's a 20db UHF pre-amp on it.
> 
> 
> Right now I can get the HD Fox station that is broadcasting at a fairly low level, but the signal is weak and at least once every few minutes the picture breaks up for 5 to 10 seconds and then comes back. Will replacing the rg59 cable with rg6 probably help with that?*



Do airplanes in landing/takeoff patterns fly anywhere near your house? Your problem sounds more like a temporary dynamic multipath problem than a loss issue. If that's the case, the cabling is almost certainly not the culprit.


Depending on frequency (the higher, the greater the effect) and length (the longer, ibid,) RG6 will have less loss than RG59. Whether this is the source of your problem or not is difficult to tell.


----------



## TheDPR




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *Do airplanes in landing/takeoff patterns fly anywhere near your house? Your problem sounds more like a temporary dynamic multipath problem than a loss issue. If that's the case, the cabling is almost certainly not the culprit.
> 
> 
> Depending on frequency (the higher, the greater the effect) and length (the longer, ibid,) RG6 will have less loss than RG59. Whether this is the source of your problem or not is difficult to tell.*



No airplanes. I'm 54 miles from the broadcast towers, though, and 27-1 is only broadcasting at 2.97kw. I'm thrilled to be getting it at all, but for the Super Bowl party I'd like to approach perfection if at all possible.


Does multipath mean the signal is coming in from two (or more) different directions? That's entirely possible. There are hills all around here. I'm just fortunate to be near the top of one.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by TheDPR_
> *No airplanes. I'm 54 miles from the broadcast towers, though, and 27-1 is only broadcasting at 2.97kw. I'm thrilled to be getting it at all, but for the Super Bowl party I'd like to approach perfection if at all possible.*



Whether perfection is possible or not, it's hard to say. The following things are things you should consider:


1) Replace the preamplifier with a Channel Master 7777. This has the highest gain and the lowest noise factor.


2) Replace the RG-59 with shielded RG-6. Quad-shielded would be better.


3) Replace the antenna with a brand-new model from Antennas Direct, designed for UHF perfection. The DB8 would be wonderful if you don't use a rotor. The 91XG would be a good second choice if you do use a rotor.


Sadly, even if you do all three of these, you may not see any serious difference in reception. The #1 factor in reception is location, and unless you do something dramatic, like raise your antenna to twice its current height, that's unlikely to do anything. The fact that you're getting that weak a signal at that range suggests you have line-of-sight, so raising your antenna isn't going to do much. Get as much gain as you can (preamplifier and antenna) and hope for the best, I guess.


----------



## jimc705

DPR,

All the mentioned above by sregener are good recommendations. I would definetly replace the rg 59 with rg 6. This alone, depending on how far the run, may give you enough db gain to make a difference. If the amp you are using if it is a Rat Shack brand I definetly replace it with the CM . I'd then see what you get. If all that fails then you going to need the better antenna. Are you by chance in the tri cities area of TN? We have a DT 27 here at low power also about 70 miles from me. I have the 91xg Antennas Direct with no amp and get it perfect at a signal level in the high 70's and no drops. I'm also in the valley surrounded by hills. The 91 xg is great at fighting multipath. I get stations out to about 80 miles digital full power signal in the 80's with the 91xg without amp. It's an awesome antenna. Good Luck on your quest.


----------



## TheDPR




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *DPR,
> 
> All the mentioned above by sregener are good recommendations. I would definetly replace the rg 59 with rg 6. This alone, depending on how far the run, may give you enough db gain to make a difference. If the amp you are using if it is a Rat Shack brand I definetly replace it with the CM . I'd then see what you get. If all that fails then you going to need the better antenna. Are you by chance in the tri cities area of TN? We have a DT 27 here at low power also about 70 miles from me. I have the 91xg Antennas Direct with no amp and get it perfect at a signal level in the high 70's and no drops. I'm also in the valley surrounded by hills. The 91 xg is great at fighting multipath. I get stations out to about 80 miles digital full power signal in the 80's with the 91xg without amp. It's an awesome antenna. Good Luck on your quest.*



I'm actually not too far from your neck of the woods, but a bit closer to Roanoke. Also, I'm on the NW face of a hill, so I can't get anything from tri-cities, while I can get the Roanoke signals.


The problem with some of the advice is the time crunch and my location. I have a week and a half to get the signal for the Super Bowl and I live in the boondocks where Radio Shack or Lowe's are the only supplier of anything.


I can get the cable and upgrade that this weekend then see what happens. I'll need express shipping to get an antenna in a week if I need one.


Thanks for the advice, everyone.


----------



## Brett_FL

I currently have the RS Catalog #: 15-2156 $99.00 combo job from Radio Shack and ordered the XG91 to try and pull in a CBS station that I am now getting on a hit and miss basis out of Orlando. I have two VHF channels out of Tampa and was wondering if I can still use the combo antenna along with the UHF only antenna with the combo box. Antennas direct told me WFTV I should still get but WFLA(8) maybe a problem so I still may need a VHF antenna. The best deal would be if I could leave the VHF/UHF directed at Tampa and point the XG91 toward Orlando and not have to deal at all with the rotor. Would like to go to bed with PVR set to tape a show on CBS in Orlando and later a show on NBC in Tampa but this will not work if rotor does not move antenna too.


Does anyone have any suggestions on a good setup for my situation. Can the combo be made into a VHF only and left directed toward Tampa and use the XG91 on the rotor or will the combo work fine? I also have a CM-7777


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Brett_FL_
> *I currently have the RS Catalog #: 15-2156 $99.00 combo job from Radio Shack and ordered the XG91 to try and pull in a CBS station that I am now getting on a hit and miss basis out of Orlando. I have two VHF channels out of Tampa and was wondering if I can still use the combo antenna along with the UHF only antenna with the combo box. Antennas direct told me WFTV I should still get but WFLA(8) maybe a problem so I still may need a VHF antenna. The best deal would be if I could leave the VHF/UHF directed at Tampa and point the XG91 toward Orlando and not have to deal at all with the rotor. Would like to go to bed with PVR set to tape a show on CBS in Orlando and later a show on NBC in Tampa but this will not work if rotor does not move antenna too.
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any suggestions on a good setup for my situation. Can the combo be made into a VHF only and left directed toward Tampa and use the XG91 on the rotor or will the combo work fine? I also have a CM-7777*



EASY-PEASY-JAPANEASY


Just hook the combo antenna to the VHF input on the CM7777, the xg91 to the UHF and be sure the internal switch on the 7777 is set to "separate" and you're done. The combo antenna is now vhf only, the xg91 is uhf only 'cause the 7777 has an internal diplexer.


----------



## Brett_FL




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *EASY-PEASY-JAPANEASY
> 
> 
> Just hook the combo antenna to the VHF input on the CM7777, the xg91 to the UHF and be sure the internal switch on the 7777 is set to "separate" and you're done. The combo antenna is now vhf only, the xg91 is uhf only 'cause the 7777 has an internal diplexer.*



So your saying I did not need the $18 combo box from AD? This still leaves me with only one small snag The ABC (28)WFTS in Tampa is UHF but I maybe able to snag Wftv ABC out of Orlando however my E*921 only provides guide info on my TAMPA OTA channels for some reason I am sure Dish controls I knew I would have to feal with this for the CBS Orlando channel. I guess you can'have everything .


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Brett_FL_
> *So your saying I did not need the $18 combo box from AD? This still leaves me with only one small snag The ABC (28)WFTS in Tampa is UHF but I maybe able to snag Wftv ABC out of Orlando however my E*921 only provides guide info on my TAMPA OTA channels for some reason I am sure Dish controls I knew I would have to feal with this for the CBS Orlando channel. I guess you can'have everything .*



No, there's no need for another vhf/uhf diplexer as the 7777 has one.


With the XG91 on a rotor, you can rotate as needed for uhf.


It's difficult to rotate both unless you put up a guyed support bearing or get a heavy duty ham rotor.


It's easy to diplex further on VHF (Lo and Hi) which would allow you to independently point a low and hi band vhf antenna. Lo is 2-6, high is 7-13.

I don't know if you have any low band digitals though. Lo/Hi VHF diplexer available from PICO at http://www.picomacom.com/macom/home/ 


As far as your E* receiver allowing or disallowing certain channels, don't know for sure. Some of them allow you to enter zip codes to enable other areas.


----------



## Brett_FL




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *No, there's no need for another vhf/uhf diplexer as the 7777 has one.
> 
> 
> With the XG91 on a rotor, you can rotate as needed for uhf.
> 
> 
> It's difficult to rotate both unless you put up a guyed support bearing or get a heavy duty ham rotor.
> 
> 
> It's easy to diplex further on VHF (Lo and Hi) which would allow you to independently point a low and hi band vhf antenna. Lo is 2-6, high is 7-13.
> 
> I don't know if you have any low band digitals though. Lo/Hi VHF diplexer available from PICO at http://www.picomacom.com/macom/home/
> 
> 
> As far as your E* receiver allowing or disallowing certain channels, don't know for sure. Some of them allow you to enter zip codes to enable other areas.*



YEs I figured I would mount the combo below the rotor and put the 91XG on the rotor since the only VHF I am concerned with are in Tampa. I had it 10' lower at one time and picked up both the VHF channels fine so I will mount it down lower and get the 91XG as high as posible. I think the lowest VHF I need is WFLA NBC channel 7 but remapped to 8. AD told me that I maybe able to get this channel on the XG but not to count on it.


Thanks for the help and feel FREE to pass on any other suggestions.


----------



## Richard Fuller

Okay guys I have success here...today my son took down the Radio VU-120XR and I talked him through(I'm a disabled veteran)putting up the Channel Master 4228 with 7775 preamp. I immediately picked up WRAZ FOX and WLFL WB this along with the main ones CBS,ABC and NBC. The only ones I'm not getting now that I want is PBS and WRDC UPN. Is anybody getting UPN reliably from about 45 miles out?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Richard Fuller_
> *Okay guys I have success here...today my son took down the Radio VU-120XR and I talked him through(I'm a disabled veteran)putting up the Channel Master 4228 with 7775 preamp. I immediately picked up WRAZ FOX and WLFL WB this along with the main ones CBS,ABC and NBC. The only ones I'm not getting now that I want is PBS and WRDC UPN. Is anybody getting UPN reliably from about 45 miles out?*



It looks like the PBS is somewhere around 195 deg. from you while the FOX is about 175deg. This may be the reason as the 4228 is pretty directional. UPN has a low power STA of 9.1 kw so that may be the factor there.

Go to http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp and put in your coordinates for bearings to your local towers. The best place for getting your exact lat/long is http://terraserver.microsoft.com/ 


You might be able to split the difference and pick up the PBS as well. You may have to wait until the UPN goes to full power.


----------



## zmeister




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Richard Fuller_
> *Okay guys I have success here...today my son took down the Radio VU-120XR and I talked him through(I'm a disabled veteran)putting up the Channel Master 4228 with 7775 preamp. I immediately picked up WRAZ FOX and WLFL WB this along with the main ones CBS,ABC and NBC. The only ones I'm not getting now that I want is PBS and WRDC UPN. Is anybody getting UPN reliably from about 45 miles out?*



I'm here in Elon not as far from UPN 35+ miles and am able to get okay most of the time. Ch4 PBS is a little bit further out from you near Chapel Hill. It's a strong station for me, if you rotate your antenna to the southwest a touch you should be okay.


----------



## spleck

I would imagine that you would need a bandpass filter on the CBS antenna and maybe a notch filter on the regular antenna. Both would be tuned or designed for whatever frequency you get CBS on.


You might try just connecting them both to a splitter/combiner and trying that. If the signals are strong enough it will be okay. If any of the signals are weak, then they will get overpowered by the noise from the other antenna.


If you need a filter, HAM radio guys are usually your best friend.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by TheDPR_
> *I'm actually not too far from your neck of the woods, but a bit closer to Roanoke. Also, I'm on the NW face of a hill, so I can't get anything from tri-cities, while I can get the Roanoke signals.
> 
> 
> The problem with some of the advice is the time crunch and my location. I have a week and a half to get the signal for the Super Bowl and I live in the boondocks where Radio Shack or Lowe's are the only supplier of anything.
> 
> 
> I can get the cable and upgrade that this weekend then see what happens. I'll need express shipping to get an antenna in a week if I need one.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice, everyone.*



If you are trying to get Roanoke stations take a look at their stations and their coverage area from link below.

I think FOX is at low power and some are not having much luck in Wytheville from what I hear. Find the RED DIGITAL indicator and look for the station you're trying to get. Click on the alternative map link for coverage area.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state...&slon2=&size=9 


Good Luck.


----------



## thorpan

Hi,


I'm looking to the experts in here for some antenna suggestions for OTA HDTV. We've already tried the amplified indoor antenna with very little success, so I'm now here looking for help in choosing an antenna(s) for the attic (yes, I already know.... outdoors is better).


Here's our DTV listings from CEA (61550 zipcode):


* yellow - uhf WYZZ-DT 43.1 FOX BLOOMINGTON IL 81° 14.0 28

* yellow - uhf WTVP-DT 46.1 PBS PEORIA IL 282° 6.8 46

* yellow - uhf WMBD-DT 30.1 CBS PEORIA IL 289° 5.3 30

* yellow - uhf WEEK-DT 25.1 NBC PEORIA IL 284° 5.7 57

* yellow - uhf WHOI-DT 19.1 ABC CREVE COEUR IL 292° 8.1 40

* yellow - uhf WAOE-DT 39.1 UPN PEORIA IL 314° 3.0 39


After reading most everything I could find here, it appears that the Channel Master 4228A would be a good antenna to use, but since it appears to be rather directional, would using two 4221A antennas along with a diplexer be a better choice? Perhaps someone has a suggestion for an attic sized multi-directional antenna? BTW, the CEA mileage numbers appear to be 3 or 4 miles low.


Getting the channels in the 282 - 314 degree range shouldn't be too hard, but since FOX is broadcasting the Super Bowl, well... need I say more?


Thanks in advance for any guidance you may bestow upon me.


----------



## TheDPR




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *If you are trying to get Roanoke stations take a look at their stations and their coverage area from link below.
> 
> I think FOX is at low power and some are not having much luck in Wytheville from what I hear. Find the RED DIGITAL indicator and look for the station you're trying to get. Click on the alternative map link for coverage area.
> 
> http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state...&slon2=&size=9
> 
> 
> Good Luck.*



Thanks. That's a very helpful link. I'm on the right track now.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by thorpan_
> *Hi,
> 
> 
> I'm looking to the experts in here for some antenna suggestions for OTA HDTV. We've already tried the amplified indoor antenna with very little success, so I'm now here looking for help in choosing an antenna(s) for the attic (yes, I already know.... outdoors is better).
> 
> 
> Here's our DTV listings from CEA (61550 zipcode):
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf WYZZ-DT 43.1 FOX BLOOMINGTON IL 81° 14.0 28
> 
> * yellow - uhf WTVP-DT 46.1 PBS PEORIA IL 282° 6.8 46
> 
> * yellow - uhf WMBD-DT 30.1 CBS PEORIA IL 289° 5.3 30
> 
> * yellow - uhf WEEK-DT 25.1 NBC PEORIA IL 284° 5.7 57
> 
> * yellow - uhf WHOI-DT 19.1 ABC CREVE COEUR IL 292° 8.1 40
> 
> * yellow - uhf WAOE-DT 39.1 UPN PEORIA IL 314° 3.0 39
> 
> 
> After reading most everything I could find here, it appears that the Channel Master 4228A would be a good antenna to use, but since it appears to be rather directional, would using two 4221A antennas along with a diplexer be a better choice? Perhaps someone has a suggestion for an attic sized multi-directional antenna? BTW, the CEA mileage numbers appear to be 3 or 4 miles low.
> 
> 
> Getting the channels in the 282 - 314 degree range shouldn't be too hard, but since FOX is broadcasting the Super Bowl, well... need I say more?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for any guidance you may bestow upon me.*



A multi directional in the attic may give you severe multipath problems. The 4221 is still directional not as much so as the 4228. Since you are very close the 4221 will probably work fine for you and the beamwidth is wider then the 4228 and may cover the 34 degrees difference at those high signal levels. Fox on the other hand you may need to turn the antenna. As close as you are however it may come in on the backside. Yep outside it will work much better and really isn't all that big. A lot less multipath.


At your distance signal won't be a problem. Multipath may kill you. This is the reason for using the 4228 with a narrow beamwidth close in like you. Attic magnifies multipath for several reasons. Wiring in house, heating ducts, reflection of walls, floor and cieling etc... Just telling you this so if you don't get a good pix with the 4221 you know what you have to do next and yes the 4228 you'll need a rotor for it's beamwidth is about 20 degrees. The 4221 outside will probably do the job. I'm concerned with it in the attic for the reasons I've stated. I know of several attic installs with the 4221 which work fine but they are further out then you. A lot less signal strength to create multipath problems.


Not sure what you are diplexing?

You want to put the antenna on the same feed as a sat signal? OK

What else you have coming from the attic you want to diplex with?

If it's a cable TV line no can do!! They use some of the same frequencies as OTA.


You loose about 2 DB diplexing and if you are splitting it somewhere in the house to other sets you have even more loss. You should have enough signal to do so but digital is touchy. If you find you are having drop outs you may need a seperate run for the antenna or a small distribution amp. Drop outs are usually result of low signal and or mutipath problems. Make a seperate RG6 run from the antenna to be sure it's not severe multipath first. You can amplify all you want and it won't get better.


Good Luck on your quest.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by thorpan_
> *I'm looking to the experts in here for some antenna suggestions for OTA HDTV. We've already tried the amplified indoor antenna with very little success, so I'm now here looking for help in choosing an antenna(s) for the attic (yes, I already know.... outdoors is better).
> *



I'd try the Zenith Silver Sensor first. Amplifiers are never a good idea inside of 20 miles, so your amplified antenna was a loser to begin with. Just because one indoor antenna didn't work doesn't mean another one won't (especially if you drop the amplifier.) The Terk HDTVi supposedly is similar to the Silver Sensor, but you won't need to extend the poles since those are for VHF only.


If you want to use two antennas in your attic, you're going to need a Channel Master "Jointenna" for channel 28. This will have one input for channel 28 and one for "everything else." The problem is that there's a little bleed on each side, and channel 30 might become a problem.


It should be possible to use a rotor with a 4-bay bowtie antenna. At your distance, that's the antenna I would recommend if you're going into your attic, unless a 4228 fits well.


Outdoors *is* better, but you'd still have to deal with a Jointenna or rotor if you want to get stations from 81 degrees and 282-314 degrees.


----------



## atye

I have a Channel Master 3678 and 7777 pre-amp with VOOM dish Diplexed into the VOOM box. I'd like to just run the ant. straight into the boxes ant input and forget the diplexer, but the installer said the pre-amp wouldn't get power unless hooked to the dish. Is this true, and how might I otherwise power the pre-amp?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by atye_
> *I have a Channel Master 3678 and 7777 pre-amp with VOOM dish Diplexed into the VOOM box. I'd like to just run the ant. straight into the boxes ant input and forget the diplexer, but the installer said the pre-amp wouldn't get power unless hooked to the dish. Is this true, and how might I otherwise power the pre-amp?*



Your preamplifier has both an indoor and an outdoor box. If the two are connected directly using RG-6 cable (RG-59 will work, but it's not the best...) then the preamplifier will get power. If the two are not, you need to use a diplexer that passes DC voltage (which, apparently, your Voom diplexer does.) I generally recommend bypassing diplexers, as they reduce the signal in unpredictable ways. Most people want them because it means less coax to be run through walls.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by atye_
> *I have a Channel Master 3678 and 7777 pre-amp with VOOM dish Diplexed into the VOOM box. I'd like to just run the ant. straight into the boxes ant input and forget the diplexer, but the installer said the pre-amp wouldn't get power unless hooked to the dish. Is this true, and how might I otherwise power the pre-amp?*



Yes it may be true. The voom receiver is probably suppling the power to the 7777. They are using the LNB power supply for both the sat amp and the antenna amp. This is done routinely when they install a sat and antenna at the same time. If they didn't give you the *********** supply portion of the pre amp then you'll have to purchase a power supply seperate. You can order them seperate with out the amp at several electronic stores. I believe Starke, Solid Signal or Warrens may sell them seperate. If all else fells you can get them direct from Channel Master. You may find with a seperate run you don't need the amp anyway. Give it a shot first and see what happens.


----------



## atye

Yeah the installer didn't leave me a power supply. Maybe I'll try the direct route without the pre-amp to see what happens. The PS should come with it though, shouldn't it? I paid the guy $57 for it.


----------



## thorpan

Hi,


Thanks to jimc705 and sregener for their advice










The reason I thought that maybe I could use a diplexer (I think this should probably be a Jointenna as srengener pointed out) was if I used 2 antennas in the attic..... one pointing toward the 282° - 314° range area (with UPN being at 314° not all that important), and the other pointing towards 81° (FOX, Super Bowl, Important). I'd rather spend the money on 2 antennas and not have to deal with the rotor. Using this scenario, would the 4228 or the 4221 work better? If 2 will work, any good mounting suggestions such as one in back of the other, one on top/one on bottom, spread 'em out, etc.?


Maybe someone could suggest a really good multi-directional antenna instead and save me all the hassle?


BTW, we won't be splitting off the cable since we only have 1 HDTV (Toshiba 62HMX94), so losing 2db doesn't sound too bad since I think that both of the Channel Mater antennas have about a 10db gain.


I'd thought about the Zenith Silver Sensor, but unfortunately, there just isn't anywhere on top of this monsterous TV to place it that would place it up high enough to allow us to rotate it towards the stations. That means it would have to sit below the TV on the stand (probably not a good option).


Thanks once again for the great advice!!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by thorpan_
> *The reason I thought that maybe I could use a diplexer (I think this should probably be a Jointenna as srengener pointed out) was if I used 2 antennas in the attic..... one pointing toward the 282° - 314° range area (with UPN being at 314° not all that important), and the other pointing towards 81° (FOX, Super Bowl, Important). I'd rather spend the money on 2 antennas and not have to deal with the rotor. Using this scenario, would the 4228 or the 4221 work better? If 2 will work, any good mounting suggestions such as one in back of the other, one on top/one on bottom, spread 'em out, etc.?
> 
> 
> Maybe someone could suggest a really good multi-directional antenna instead and save me all the hassle?
> *



Last point first: for digital reception the words "multi-directional" and "good" are an oxymoron.


To cover a range like 282-314, you should go with a 4-bay bowtie. The 8-bay is rather directional, sometimes down to as little as 2 degrees. The 4-bay will easily cover a 30 degree range. For the single station at 81, you could use a 4228 if you wanted.


For mounting, you should make sure that neither one is in front of the other. They should be at least 3' separate to avoid creating interference, and the further apart they are, the better. The reflector screen will create some multipath so if you can physically block the active elements on each antenna with the reflector screen of the other, that would be ideal. It's hard to describe, but easy to draw a picture. Unfortunately, ascii isn't all that great. But essentially, you want them to look like a "\\/" with the smallest angle being the backs of the antennas.


----------



## snookboy




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by snookboy_
> *Well, I hope everyone can stand one more plea for help. I can't thank everyone on this forum for all the help I have received over the last six months as I have attempted to put together a HT. I am having a problem getting all my locals OTA, but from reading this thread I'm pretty confident I can resolve it. Just want to get it right the first time.
> 
> 
> Here is my situation. I am in Miami and my digital stations are as follows:
> 
> 
> *yellow - uhf WSCV-DT 51.1 TEL FORT LAUD 22° 27.0 52
> 
> 
> *yellow - uhf WTVJ-DT 6.1 NBC MIAMI FL 19° 25.5 31
> 
> 
> *yellow - uhf WLRN-DT 17.1 PBS MIAMI FL 22° 26.6 20
> 
> 
> *yellow - uhf WLTV-DT 23.1 UNI MIAMI FL 19° 25.5 24
> 
> 
> *yellow - uhf WFOR-DT 4.1 CBS MIAMI FL 19° 25.5 22
> 
> 
> *yellow - uhf WAMI-DT 69.1 TFA HOLLYWOOD 22° 27.1 47
> 
> 
> *green - uhf WPXM-DT 35.1 PAX MIAMI FL 22° 27.1 26
> 
> 
> *lt green - uhf WBZL-DT 39.1 WB MIAMI FL 19° 25.5 19
> 
> 
> *red - uhf WBFS-DT 33.1 UPN MIAMI FL 20° 25.6 32
> 
> 
> *red - uhf WPBT-DT 2.1 PBS MIAMI FL 20° 24.9 18
> 
> 
> *blue - vhf WSVN-DT 7.1 FOX MIAMI FL 20° 25.3 8
> 
> 
> *blue - vhf WPLG-DT 10.1 ABC MIAMI FL 20° 25.5 9
> 
> 
> *violet - uhf WHDT-DT 44 IND MIAMI FL 20° 25.8 44
> 
> 
> 
> The only stations that are must have are 4,6,7,& 10, the four major networks. I signed up with VOOM a few weeks ago (yeah, I know, just in time for it to be sold) and they put up a small amplified outdoor antenna. 4 and 6 are fine. 7 and 10 are very marginal. I am right on the borderline of getting them. Sometimes I get both, sometimes I get neither, often they pixilate. As you can see, 7 and 10 are both VHF. But all four are under 30 miles away, only one degree off, and I really don't have any major obstructions in the flat landscape of South Florida.
> 
> 
> I have about a 100 cable run. Couple of questions. VOOM has the OTA antenna and the dish running on the same cable. Wouldn't I be better off running separate cables for the antenna and the dish?
> 
> 
> From reading this thread, I am thinking about the Channel Master 4228 as it has been stated as a very good UHF and a good high VHF, which is what I need. (or it seems to me anyway) Coupled with a 7777 preamp, I'm thinking I should be good to go.
> 
> 
> Am I thinking along the right lines? Would this get the job done for me? Or would anyone suggest something better? I am in a single story house and it would mount outside at 20 feet, relatively unobstructed. Any and all insight would be greatly appreciated. Especially since the superbowl in on channel 7 in a mere two weeks!! Thanks again.*



OK, that was my situation. I purchased a CM 3020. I have three TV's. The antenna is closest to the small TV's in the bedroom and office. The signal is awesome to these sets. Of course, the long run is to the main HD TV. That signal is OK, but not near as good. (On the VOOM set I am getting high 90's to the close TV's and about 85-87 to the main set)


The question is, will a pre amp help me? Or will I just cause more issues. I am getting a strong signal, I am just losing some of it over the long cable run. Not sure if the pre amp will help that or not. Once again, thanks to everyone for taking the time to help. This forum has been priceless.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by snookboy_
> *OK, that was my situation. I purchased a CM 3020. I have three TV's. The antenna is closest to the small TV's in the bedroom and office. The signal is awesome to these sets. Of course, the long run is to the main HD TV. That signal is OK, but not near as good. (On the VOOM set I am getting high 90's to the close TV's and about 85-87 to the main set)
> 
> 
> The question is, will a pre amp help me? Or will I just cause more issues. I am getting a strong signal, I am just losing some of it over the long cable run. Not sure if the pre amp will help that or not. Once again, thanks to everyone for taking the time to help. This forum has been priceless.*



First, are you having dropouts, etc on the main HD set? Absolute signal level doesn't matter a bit, only a stable signal matters. If your signal *quality* is similar on the main set don't change a thing. PQ is only dependent on a stable signal, not on signal strength as measured by your receiver. In addition, different receivers will measure differently.


How long is your cable run to the main set? If it's greater than 75 ft., a preamp might help (if you decide to change). You might consider the CM 3041 model available at Lowe's. You can try it with little risk as the return policy is liberal. It has less gain than the CM 7777 (which is good in your case) but otherwise is very similar. It also has a 300 ohm input which would be ideal for you. You'll need a short section of 300 ohm twinlead to go from the antenna to preamp. Take the balun out. Be sure whatever splitter you're using passes DC so the power supply can supply the preamp section.


----------



## snookboy

OK, great advice thanks! I think I am going to just wait and see how things go. It the signal is stable, I'll just sit tight. Thanks again.


----------



## offandon

Can anyone recommend a splitter for this situation:


I have an antenna in the attic running to the living room where the powered part of the preamp is plugged in ... I would like to split the line halfway between the attic and living room. Can I do this without affecting the operation of the preamp?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by offandon_
> *Can anyone recommend a splitter for this situation:
> 
> 
> I have an antenna in the attic running to the living room where the powered part of the preamp is plugged in ... I would like to split the line halfway between the attic and living room. Can I do this without affecting the operation of the preamp?*



Yes, you just need a wideband splitter that passes DC on one or both legs. Be sure the preamp power supply is on the leg that passes DC.

At Lowes, there is a splitter by Zenith 5-2Ghz and which passes DC on both which should work for you.


I think it's branded Zenith but may be made by Gemini. Anyway, here it is:
http://www.lowes.com/lkn?action=prod...41-578-ZDS5010 You might need a DC block on the other leg (RS makes one).


Even better would be on just one leg. PICO makes the TSB-21GDC. See http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C3-C4.pdf 


EDIT: I tried the Zenith model above and it *doesn't* pass DC even though it is advertised as so. However, the elcheapo model 5-900Mhz Philips splitter sold in the same section *does*(although not advertised as so). Sorry.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by atye_
> *Yeah the installer didn't leave me a power supply. Maybe I'll try the direct route without the pre-amp to see what happens. The PS should come with it though, shouldn't it? I paid the guy $57 for it.*



Yes the 7777 is packaged with the power supply.


----------



## rldud

I posted questions about receiving a low power 1kw signal from my local Fox station several weeks ago and had several helpful responses. Since then, I purchased a Winegard 9032 after I found info that stated it was very good at the high UHF signals. The Fox stations frequency is 57. The antenna worked when I temporarily positioned it at 10 feet above the peak of my house when the weather was clear with no other adjustments other than pointing it toward the transmitter and no adjustments as to being close to plumb. The problem I now have is that I put up a mast that is 14 feet above the peak and now I am having problems with the reception. It seems that when I installed the antenna this time the signal seems to come and go. When I tried to find out what the problem was, it made a difference when I adjusted the plumb of the mast. And then today the picture was ok even when I moved the antenna quite a bit either way of plumb. Now tonight I was going to check the reception while the signal was HD and there was no signal at all! The only difference that I can find is that I raised the antenna 4 feet and the weather, it is cloudy and the clouds are fairly low. Can raising the antenna 4 feet have this much affect or could it be blamed on the weather? I am going to check with the station tomorrow to see if they have any answers.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by rldud_
> *I posted questions about receiving a low power 1kw signal from my local Fox station several weeks ago and had several helpful responses. Since then, I purchased a Winegard 9032 after I found info that stated it was very good at the high UHF signals. The Fox stations frequency is 57. The antenna worked when I temporarily positioned it at 10 feet above the peak of my house when the weather was clear with no other adjustments other than pointing it toward the transmitter and no adjustments as to being close to plumb. The problem I now have is that I put up a mast that is 14 feet above the peak and now I am having problems with the reception. It seems that when I installed the antenna this time the signal seems to come and go. When I tried to find out what the problem was, it made a difference when I adjusted the plumb of the mast. And then today the picture was ok even when I moved the antenna quite a bit either way of plumb. Now tonight I was going to check the reception while the signal was HD and there was no signal at all! The only difference that I can find is that I raised the antenna 4 feet and the weather, it is cloudy and the clouds are fairly low. Can raising the antenna 4 feet have this much affect or could it be blamed on the weather? I am going to check with the station tomorrow to see if they have any answers.*



The short answer is yes to all the above. Weather can effect the signal. Depending how far from transmitter and geographic location of antenna and transmitters. Station power also contributes to problems. As for being plumb not as much as the others but if you are below the horizon pointing up toward the horizon may help for long distance signals. Height definetly makes a difference.


My experience here I tried the roof top about 6 feet above the ridge. Got a few stations but not all. Then tried higher about 15 feet above ridge lost all the stations. Then moved down to my deck about 5 feet of the ground. Got some exceptionally strong some weak others not at all. I tried right even with the roof edge improved some lessen others but did get some others I didn't get at all before. Put son in law on roof and had him increase height about 6 inches at a time. 6 inches higher got another station another 6 inches got all to lock another 6 inches good reliable signal on all. Tried another 6 inches started to lose a station another 6 inches lost a few more.

Finally put it back where I got all from good to very good. Note some lose signal going to higher position but had plenty of signal at lower elevation. Had to give some to get the others. Also note analog signal came in better at higher elevation. Digitals where fussy. I had no need for the analog.


This may or may not be your problem. This is what I found here at my location and may be unique. As little as 6 inches can make a difference with UHF not only in the vertical plane but also the horizontal plane.


As for weather at least with my 91xg the more humidity in the air the better the signal. If it's raining my signal can go up as much as 10 points. I have heard others say their signal goes down in rain. I think since my signal comes in better closer to the ground when it rains it helps keep the waves closer to the ground.


Summary it's not an exact science. Most of the time higher is better but not always. I wouldn't worry too much about it being plumb and more on the height and location. Your station being at 1KW isn't helping much either. Good Luck I hope you find the right spot in time for the Super Bowl.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by rldud_
> *Can raising the antenna 4 feet have this much affect or could it be blamed on the weather?*



The answer is "both."


At the high frequencies of UHF channel 57, a change of a few inches will move you a full wavelength from the signal you were viewing before. Although it is possible you hit a "hot spot" at 10 feet, the fact that you've gotten rock solid reception at times at 14 feet suggests that the precise location isn't the problem.


However, reception varies depending on a number of factors. I've found that the sun itself can cause issues with reception. Whether this is related to heat or radiation is a matter of some debate. However, my reception gets worse as the sun approaches its apex in the sky, and it is much worse in the summer (when the sun is higher in the sky) than in the winter. I've had days where the reception is rock solid and spot-on, almost regardless of where I point my antenna. Then there are days where I can point my antenna anywhere in the universe and not get enough signal for a lock. There are nights where I get what I'm after, and there are nights where I don't. The most frustrating are the nights where the atmosphere is too unstable to give me a constant signal - I'll get a lock, be able to watch a program for a while, and then lose everything for 10-20 seconds before it locks again. Watching analogs from the same area I can *see* this happening - the picture goes from perfectly clear to multicolored "snow" to black&white and sometimes I even lose audio sync before it transitions back to perfectly clear.


You don't say if you're over the radio horizon (approximately 60 miles for an antenna mounted at 350 meters) or not. More likely, you're physically blocked or at a sufficient distance that background radiation is a major source of reception problems. At 1kw, they're not exactly putting out a signal designed to blast through any problems.


If you haven't tried a preamplifier yet, you might want to give one a shot to see if it helps. It might not.


Unreliable reception of difficult stations is just the nature of the beast. You probably won't be able to count on it until they raise their power. Once they do that, you've got a very good setup that should get you trouble-free results. (For an idea of when that might be, top 100 market "big 4" stations must be at 90% coverage (roughly 50% of full power) by 7/1/05 and all other stations must be at 90% coverage by 7/1/06. There is a possibility of one 6-month extension to these guidelines, though I've heard they won't be granted for many reasons.)


----------



## slapshot

Can someone recommend a good antenna I can use in Marlyand about 35 miles across the bay from Baltimore in 21620 zip? I have an RCA DTC210 Directv HD box that on a whim I connected a tiny indoor antenna to from a small portable tv that surprisingly is pulling in most of the digital stations from Baltimore at anywhere from 60-90%,depending on where I put it! Obviously I want something more stable and outside and having a higher WAF! (Wife Acceptance Factor). I'd like to also pull in the DC stations and possibly(?) Philly. Don't really want a rotor as I don't want to make it too complicated for her,so something thats not so directional? I could go the the Shack right down the road and see what they recommend but you guys know more than they do!


Thank you in advance.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by slapshot_
> *Can someone recommend a good antenna I can use in Marlyand about 35 miles across the bay from Baltimore in 21620 zip?
> 
> 
> ...I'd like to also pull in the DC stations and possibly(?) Philly. Don't really want a rotor as I don't want to make it too complicated for her,so something thats not so directional? I could go the the Shack right down the road and see what they recommend but you guys know more than they do!
> *



Any good UHF antenna should get you the Baltimore stations. This would include the Channel Master 4228, 4248, 4021 and 4308, Winegard PR4400, PR8800, PR9032, and 9065P.


If you want to get Washington stations (pushing 60 miles) you're going to have to get a top-grade antenna and do a little hoping for the best. Top antennas for distance reception include the Channel Master 4228, the Antennas Direct 91XG, the Televes DAT75 (expensive), and the Antennas Direct DB8.


I think you're realistically too far (75+ miles) from Philadelphia to count on digital reception in that direction. It might happen, and it might not. Sometimes it might be great, and other times you might get nothing. I'm not making any promises and anyone who does is either A) lying to you or B) insane.


Any antenna that is multidirectional is not going to work very well. You might be able to use a 4-bay bowtie (CM4021, WG PR4400, AD DB4) and point it between Baltimore and Washington and get signals. Then again, you may not get Washington very well, as the 4-bays aren't top performers at long distances. Any of the larger antennas isn't going to work well at all for picking up 2 cities that are separated by 30 degrees.


You will probably want a low-noise preamplifier. Many report that then Channel Master 7777 is a great choice, and I concur. This probably won't make a difference on the Baltimore stations, but should help greatly with the Washington ones.


It's hard to say just how much antenna you need for Washington, as you're still within the theoretical limits of "normal" reception. A 4-bay bowtie might be all you need. A preamp might make things even better. It's hard to know until you put something up and find out what your reception is like. Then you can tweak and twiddle until you find something that does most of what you want (provided that it's possible.)


I'm 75 miles away from stations, have invested in top-grade hardware, and still don't get reliable reception of any channels on a daily basis. Sometimes they're there. Sometimes they're not. But since you'd need a rotor to point in that direction anyway, you may just want to skip worrying about Philly.


----------



## Xesdeeni

I get my locals pretty well (HDTV tuner), but during some times of day, I get some breaking up. I want to try a pre-amp, like the CM 7777, but I'd like the option of returning it if it doesn't help much. None of my local stores appear to carry the CM 7777, but Fry's has the 3041DSB ( http://shop1.outpost.com/product/257...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG ). The specs are pretty close, but I don't know what other type of functionality might not be obvious from them. Is this pre-amp as good as the CM 7777, or should I just bite the bullet and buy it online?


Xesdeeni


----------



## hardballpete

Anyone have experience with this antenna - Samsung Amplified Indoor HDTV Antenna


Model: TV5.2 available at Best Buy - http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....8&type=product 


Thanks for any input.


----------



## TheDPR

I have an old Archer preamp on my antenna. The specs claim the noise factor is "3.5 typical" and the gain is 20db.


The only preamp I can purchase locally is this Channel Master from Lowe's:

http://www.lowes.com/lkn?action=prod...000693-3041DSB 


with a noise figure of 2.2 and gain of 23db. How much difference should the reduced noise and increased gain make? I'm asking for theoretical numbers and also for practical advice.


I'm getting my local Fox station (broadcasting at around 3kw at around 55 miles) but only during perfect weather conditions. I'd like to improve things for this weekend's Super Bowl, if possible.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Xesdeeni_
> *The specs are pretty close, but I don't know what other type of functionality might not be obvious from them. Is this pre-amp as good as the CM 7777, or should I just bite the bullet and buy it online?
> *



For all intents and purposes, it is identical performance-wise for UHF. It's VHF amplification is a little lower, but that shouldn't be a big deal. It may not have two separate inputs for UHF and VHF, but even that's not a big deal because you can always use a CM#0549 later if you decide to connect a UHF and VHF antenna together later.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by hardballpete_
> *Anyone have experience with this antenna - Samsung Amplified Indoor HDTV Antenna*



Looks like a gimmick antenna. They never work well. Look for the Zenith Silver Sensor or Terk HDTVi instead.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by TheDPR_
> *I have an old Archer preamp on my antenna. The specs claim the noise factor is "3.5 typical" and the gain is 20db.
> 
> 
> with a noise figure of 2.2 and gain of 23db. How much difference should the reduced noise and increased gain make? I'm asking for theoretical numbers and also for practical advice.
> *



Noise is a major problem on very weak signals. Gain in an amplifier, once you've overcome line loss and receiver resistance, isn't much of an issue.


I've seen noise cause major reception problems. It's worth a shot to reduce the noise. Archer products (made for Radio Shack) were among some of the noisiest on the market, especially on UHF, so replacing it could make a huge difference.


At worst, it would make no difference at all, which is a possibility. But I'd take the chance if you're on the borderline. Also check your coax connectors while you're out there for corrosion and replace any that look bad.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by TheDPR_
> *I have an old Archer preamp on my antenna. The specs claim the noise factor is "3.5 typical" and the gain is 20db.
> 
> 
> The only preamp I can purchase locally is this Channel Master from Lowe's:
> 
> http://www.lowes.com/lkn?action=prod...000693-3041DSB
> 
> 
> with a noise figure of 2.2 and gain of 23db. How much difference should the reduced noise and increased gain make? I'm asking for theoretical numbers and also for practical advice.
> 
> 
> I'm getting my local Fox station (broadcasting at around 3kw at around 55 miles) but only during perfect weather conditions. I'd like to improve things for this weekend's Super Bowl, if possible.*



No one can say for sure if it will improve your signal. That said the noise difference with a low S/N like yours could make a significant difference. You'll be amplifing 1 DB less of noise while still amplifing the pix at 23 DB. Most newer TV sets have a noisy tuner for the fact most are built to hook to cable. Once you get below the tuner threshold S/N you could see a big difference. S/N actually is more important , or as important, as the gain figure. Since you'll be buying from Lowes you can take it back if you see no improvement. Note if theres no signal to boost then no amp will help.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by hardballpete_
> *Anyone have experience with this antenna - Samsung Amplified Indoor HDTV Antenna
> 
> 
> Model: TV5.2 available at Best Buy - http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....8&type=product
> 
> 
> Thanks for any input.*



Depending how far you are from transmitter most indoor amplified antennas don't do any better then a dipole. If you are less then 15 miles then you can give it a shot. The Zenith mention by srenger is one of the best indoors for UHF reception.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by slapshot_
> *Can someone recommend a good antenna I can use in Marlyand about 35 miles across the bay from Baltimore in 21620 zip? I have an RCA DTC210 Directv HD box that on a whim I connected a tiny indoor antenna to from a small portable tv that surprisingly is pulling in most of the digital stations from Baltimore at anywhere from 60-90%,depending on where I put it! Obviously I want something more stable and outside and having a higher WAF! (Wife Acceptance Factor). I'd like to also pull in the DC stations and possibly(?) Philly. Don't really want a rotor as I don't want to make it too complicated for her,so something thats not so directional? I could go the the Shack right down the road and see what they recommend but you guys know more than they do!
> 
> 
> Thank you in advance.*



Philly with a WAF is going to be impossible. The Channel Master 4221 should get you Baltimore and maybe DC. It is small and may get it pass the wife. Other options Antennas Direct 43xg or 91 xg or DB4. A last resort for WAF the Sqareshooter by Winegard. Expensive for what you get and may not get you all the channels you are looking for. Since you are going over water it may do the job. The 91xg is highly directional and you may need a rotor for DC.

http://www.solidsignal.com/manu_disp...0Master&page=2 

http://www.antennasdirect.com/MediumRangeAntennas.htm 

http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *Philly with a WAF is going to be impossible.[/url]*



I don't know who you-all married, but my wife has a much lower tolerance for signal breakups than she does the monster antenna on my 54' tower. If she thought it would make reception more reliable, she'd probably agree to a 75' tower.


How much time do you spend outside your home? How much time do you spend inside watching television? So which picture do you want to look better?


----------



## MojoJuice

I have been reading a little about grounding antennas and I have a question. If the UHF only antenna is located in the garage attic does it need to be grounded? For that to happen with my setup it would have to be grounded on the main water pipe. Anyone know if this is needed or will be helpful since I seem to have some noise in the line?


----------



## slapshot

Thanks for the info guys,I knew you'd have some great suggestions!

Will either of the CM 4221 or 4228 be ok with all my stations? They all are uhf, correct? I'll give up the idea of Philadelphia as it does seem too far. It would be nice to get DC however.


Yes,mounting any kind (within reason) of antenna on the roof will go over much better with the wife than the signal breaking up all day!


----------



## greywolf

Indoor antennas don't need grounding. There is no wind exposure to build up static electricity.


----------



## MojoJuice

Thanks Pat, good to know.


I have SD D* so my antenna goes to a 3x4 multiswitch then to a diplexer at the tv. Doing some testing with one of my lines from TiVo, if I use that as a dedicated antenna line (no sat signal) I have much better signal strength to all channels. Is there anything I can do to reduce the signal loss through the multiswitch or diplexer? (I understand you lose some strength for each passthrough) I tried a signal amp and that just made things worse. Powered multiswitch maybe?


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by slapshot_
> *Thanks for the info guys,I knew you'd have some great suggestions!
> 
> Will either of the CM 4221 or 4228 be ok with all my stations? They all are uhf, correct? I'll give up the idea of Philadelphia as it does seem too far. It would be nice to get DC however.
> 
> 
> Yes,mounting any kind (within reason) of antenna on the roof will go over much better with the wife than the signal breaking up all day!*



If you want DC also I'd go with the 4228. You will need a rotor with it for it's higly directional. The 4221 is less directional but has less gain. It's good out to about 45 miles max. Over water a little better maybe. The 4228 is good out to 60 miles +. You may get away with a 4221 and a preamp CM 7777. Still be less then $100.


----------



## Ralph22

I need advice.


Have just purchased a Motorola HDT101 receiver. Hooked it into an older, projection HDTV, and connected a 5 to 10 year old outside antenna (using the flat, twin lead wire; via a device that makes it into a coax connection).


I get a great picture...as long as I hold the antenna wire! Yep, most of the channels just don't lock up...or if they do, they come and go.


Do I need (1) a new antenna or (2) just a better (coax) from the existing antenna or (3) all of the above? If so, what's the cheapest route?


I've already spent more on the receiver than my wife likes. A new antenna will put me in the doghouse. But I want my HDTV! By Sunday!


----------



## jimc705

Ralph ,


Need more info on your antenna . VHFUHF combo Model # or make.

Give us your zip so we can see what you can get. How long a run from outside ? Antenna on roof etc...


Your antenna may or may not work. Is it pointing to the digital towers? Do you have a rotor?

If you have a matching transformer at the antenna and running coax in to tv is it RG 59 or RG 6?


----------



## atye

OK, I got a power supply for my CM 7777 pre-amp. Finally got up on the roof and got the amp up close to the antenna. I hooked up a seperate run of RG-6 from the amp to the power supply, and power supply to the VOOM box. I'm 99% certain I had it hooked up correctly, but got absolutely no signal. I talked to my installer who said I needed a diplexer with DC pass between the amp and the power supply. Is this correct?


----------



## Brian J

A question about using a Jointenna:


From my location in the Denver area, I get great reception on CBS (Ch 35), NBC (Ch 16), PBS (Ch 18) and even the elusive ABC (Ch 17) with a RS yagi pointed at downtown (109 deg). However I get 0 strength on Fox (Ch 32) and WB (Ch 34) which are at 192 deg. When I point it at 182 deg I get Fox and WB but none of the others. My zip is 80007.


Here's my question. If I use two antennas and a Jointenna to split out Fox and WB, will I likely lose CBS since it is adjacent to these channels?


Is there another option I might be missing or a better antenna? I would like to avoid a rotator if possible.


Thanks,


Brian J


----------



## greywolf

Mojo, try replacing the diplexer. It is usually the weak link. Check that connections are clean and tight.


Ralph, Pick up a new 300-75 ohm balun and attach it to the antenna. Then run RG6 coax from the balun to the receiver. That old twinlead is very subject to interference.


----------



## TheDPR

I just ordered a CM 3023 antenna. I hope/expect an improvement over the old Radio Shack one I'm currently using. But I have a question.


Why are the gain specs of the 3023 and the 4248 different when they are the same style and size? What are the differences between the two? Are the elements placed differently? Made of different materials? The pictures look identical. What gives?


----------



## itsmyforte

need some advise. getting a 4221 to help pull in some stations. i currently have a combo generic antenna i purchased from Menards. it works very well considering my distance and i can pull all the major networks in clear. my question is how or rather where should i mount my uhf only antenna in reference to my combo antenna? i have an unused chimney i could attach to but that would put it about 30ft in front and to the left of my combo unit. i would assume this is ok since its not in direct line of sight of the combo unit.


the background info: live SW of indianapolis about avg of 25-35mi. from damn near all towers in indy. i do not have any trees in my line of sight. my current combo antenna is about 4ft above the peak of my roof at the far end of the house. so far it works very well, i just want to pick up 3 more channels and i will have all the locals.


thanks,


J


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by atye_
> *OK, I got a power supply for my CM 7777 pre-amp. Finally got up on the roof and got the amp up close to the antenna. I hooked up a seperate run of RG-6 from the amp to the power supply, and power supply to the VOOM box. I'm 99% certain I had it hooked up correctly, but got absolutely no signal. I talked to my installer who said I needed a diplexer with DC pass between the amp and the power supply. Is this correct?*



I f you have a seperate RG6 run between the antenna pre amp and the RF input of the voom receiver with no breaks or splits in the line then NO you do not need a diplexer. Diplexer is only needed if you are running sat and OTA on the same line. The DC for the amp runs up the coax and if you haven't split the line or put anything in the line it should work.


What kind of antenna are you hooking the 7777 to? If it looks like a wing that VOOM sometimes uses it has an amp inside it. If it doesn't get voltage you'll get nothing. You either have to bypass the internal amp or get a small UHF antenna that doesn't have a built in amp. Depending how far out you are will decide what kind of antenna. need further help give us your zip for antenna recommendations.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *I f you have a seperate RG6 run between the antenna pre amp and the RF input of the voom receiver with no breaks or splits in the line then NO you do not need a diplexer. Diplexer is only needed if you are running sat and OTA on the same line. The DC for the amp runs up the coax and if you haven't split the line or put anything in the line it should work.
> 
> 
> What kind of antenna are you hooking the 7777 to? If it looks like a wing that VOOM sometimes uses it has an amp inside it. If it doesn't get voltage you'll get nothing. You either have to bypass the internal amp or get a small UHF antenna that doesn't have a built in amp. Depending how far out you are will decide what kind of antenna. need further help give us your zip for antenna recommendations.*



OOPS! forgot from the antenna preamp to the power supply not the RF input on the Voom receiver. Should have a solid run with no breaks from the preamp to power supply then from the power supply to the RF input.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Brian J_
> *A question about using a Jointenna:
> 
> 
> From my location in the Denver area, I get great reception on CBS (Ch 35), NBC (Ch 16), PBS (Ch 18) and even the elusive ABC (Ch 17) with a RS yagi pointed at downtown (109 deg). However I get 0 strength on Fox (Ch 32) and WB (Ch 34) which are at 192 deg. When I point it at 182 deg I get Fox and WB but none of the others. My zip is 80007.
> 
> 
> Here's my question. If I use two antennas and a Jointenna to split out Fox and WB, will I likely lose CBS since it is adjacent to these channels?
> 
> 
> Is there another option I might be missing or a better antenna? I would like to avoid a rotator if possible.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Brian J*



All the channels are very close together and a join tenna to notch specfic frequencies is very expensive. I'm not sure but I don't think you can notch adjacent channels like 34 and 35. Probably can with enough money.

If you don't want a rotor the easiest way to do this is to make a seperate RG6 run from the second antenna and get an A/B switch. You than simply switch between the antennas when you want to watch FOX and WB. Radio Shack has both manual and remote controled A/B switches. The remote one is about $30 the manual about $3 at most places.


Make sure you don't mount one antenna in front of the other. Try if possible to have their backs side facing each other for max. F/B ratio.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by itsmyforte_
> *need some advise. getting a 4221 to help pull in some stations. i currently have a combo generic antenna i purchased from Menards. it works very well considering my distance and i can pull all the major networks in clear. my question is how or rather where should i mount my uhf only antenna in reference to my combo antenna? i have an unused chimney i could attach to but that would put it about 30ft in front and to the left of my combo unit. i would assume this is ok since its not in direct line of sight of the combo unit.
> 
> 
> the background info: live SW of indianapolis about avg of 25-35mi. from damn near all towers in indy. i do not have any trees in my line of sight. my current combo antenna is about 4ft above the peak of my roof at the far end of the house. so far it works very well, i just want to pick up 3 more channels and i will have all the locals.
> 
> 
> thanks,
> 
> 
> J*



30 feet should be good as long as the combo is not looking in the direction of the 4221. In other words the combo signal doesn't have to pass over the UHF to get it's signal. Most combos have about a 30 degree or more beamwidth keep this in mind when installing the 4221. I'd also put the 4221 a little higher or lower then the combo so it's not on the same horiz. plane. You should then be OK.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by TheDPR_
> *I just ordered a CM 3023 antenna. I hope/expect an improvement over the old Radio Shack one I'm currently using. But I have a question.
> 
> 
> Why are the gain specs of the 3023 and the 4248 different when they are the same style and size? What are the differences between the two? Are the elements placed differently? Made of different materials? The pictures look identical. What gives?*



CM made the 3023 in 2 pieces for easier shipping . the 4248 is one piece. Other than that they are pretty much the same. A small difference in the way the directors are shaped diamond on the 4248 and flat on the 3023. May be a very slight advantage with the diamond shape for the old Quantums used the same and they were great antennas. Not enough to worry about. The 4248 cost much more to ship for it's box is over the 5 feet limit and must pay the 70lb weight penalty.


----------



## atye




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *What kind of antenna are you hooking the 7777 to? If it looks like a wing that VOOM sometimes uses it has an amp inside it. If it doesn't get voltage you'll get nothing. You either have to bypass the internal amp or get a small UHF antenna that doesn't have a built in amp. Depending how far out you are will decide what kind of antenna. need further help give us your zip for antenna recommendations.*



I shouldn't have assumed anyone remembered my earlier post. (oops)


Anyway, my antenna (supplied by my installer) is a ChannelMaster 3678, (I just realized it MIGHT be a 4242. They don't look much different.) and I'm trying to pick up Minneapolis and St. Paul channels. The towers are in the same location. (almost exactly 60 miles) I get CBS fairly consistently, NBC now and then, but no FOX or ABC. The one I'm really shooting for is FOX, because the local FOX (out of Eau Claire, Wi) won't be broadcasting in digital let alone HD any time soon.


I'll run down the install so you all can see what the problem might be.

I put the 7777 preamp at the top of the mast so as to have the shortest possible cable from the balun. Then I ran RG-6 down the roof and around a wall into the house (a much shorter run than before) directly into the preamp power supply antenna input, then out the tv output into the VOOM box'es antenna input. (I've used this input with a silver sensor to get a few close stations and it works well)

Having the preamp connected to JUST the voom box (not the power supply) with the diplexer combining the Sat with it I get signal. When I connected it as described above I got O% on everything.


----------



## MojoJuice




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by greywolf_
> *Mojo, try replacing the diplexer. It is usually the weak link. Check that connections are clean and tight.
> *



I think it's the multiswitch that is the weak link in my setup. To test this I ran the direct line from the antenna to the diplexer with the sat and tv connected the same as when on the multiswitch. Set this way I still get a clean signal on all my channels. As soon as I route the antenna signal through the multiswitch on the same line as the test, the signal drops and I lose a couple channels. What I'm thinking is getting a 2nd diplexer and combining the sat signal and antenna on just the one line instead of the multiswitch combining it on 4 lines. Does this make sense to anyone?


----------



## jimc705

Atye ,


Really sounds like the amp isn't getting any voltage from power supply. I know this sounds stupid but double check you have the TO ANTENNA connection from power supply going to the amp and the TO TV to Voom box. I've done dumb thinks like that a time or two. Sounds like you did it right though.

When you hook up the diplexer the voltage is coming from the Voom box which is why I think you get a signal.

When you hook up the Voom box to amp via diplexer. Are you using the same RG6 cable from house to amp as when you use the CM power supply? Do you have a voltmeter to check and see if the power supply is working? Should be about 22 volts DC. If you do go up to antenna and see if voltage is up there going into the amp. Should be slightly less.


If all checks out . By pass the amp and run straight from the antenna to voom box. If it still doesn't work then try replacing the balun on the antenna. You should get something with out the amp. The 3678 should do the job by itself.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by atye_
> *Having the preamp connected to JUST the voom box (not the power supply) with the diplexer combining the Sat with it I get signal. When I connected it as described above I got O% on everything.*



Plug the antenna into the television (or a VCR/Tivo) and see if you get anything on analog channels like 23 or 45. This will confirm that the preamplifier, wiring, and antenna are working correctly.


If the antenna is working properly with all the connections, and then you get nothing with it plugged into the Voom box, you know the problem is inside the Voom box. Is it possible the Voom box itself is outputting power on the antenna output?


Channel Master preamps do not pass a signal if they don't receive power.


----------



## greywolf

People who plug in the preamp power supply before completing the coax wiring have been known to accidentally short out the power supply in the process. This can kill the power supply. Check with a voltmeter to see if the amp is getting power.


----------



## SteveMSU

Would appreciate some advice. Here's the situation


Station 1 is 31.3 miles away; VHF; Frequency Assigment 2; about 6 kw

Station 2 is 51.5 miles away; VHF; Frequency Assignment 6; about 1000 kw


Do I have any chance in heck of receiving either of these stations with an indoor antenna? I'm in a second story (top) apartment, but am facing south. Station 1 is to the north west, station 2 to the north east. I don't think the attic is an option.


Let me know if I didn't state any of this info correctly. It's what I could gather from Antennaweb and the FCC site.


----------



## PhilJSmith67

6kw is plausible for channel 2. But, are you sure that Station 2 with 1000kw is on Channel 6? The FCC would never allow such power on Low-Band VHF. Or, is Channel 6 the "virtual channel number" via PSIP?


What are the callsigns for these two channels?


----------



## SteveMSU

Station 1 = WWMT out of Kalamazoo, MI. The towers are actually 30 miles north of Kalamazoo closer to Grand Rapids


Station 2 = WLNS out of Lansing, MI.


I'm in Battle Creek, MI (zip 49015).


Thanks for your help. I'm clueless when it comes to signal strength and VHF vs UHF type info.


----------



## PhilJSmith67

I believe that both stations will be equally tough. WWMT is closer to you, but that VHF-Low assignment means you will most likely need one of the following:


-- Rabbit ears with a "100 inch wingspan"

-- A cut-to-length folded-dipole antenna, preferrably in an attic if possible (this can be made out of twin-lead wire)


I am 33 miles away from WBBM-DT Chicago on VHF-Low Channel 3. The folded-dipole antenna in the attic is the only way I can reliably get WBBM-DT. If there is any electrical noise in the area (neighbor using a circular saw, blender, etc.), I can't get it at all.


The DTV signal for WLNS is actually on UHF channel 59. Unfortunately, it's farther away from you, and UHF is more "line of sight" than VHF, so the signal for WLNS falls off sharply beyond the horizon. Fortunately, it's the full power of 1MW, and UHF is very much receivable on an indoor bow-tie antenna, or a Zenith Silver Sensor. I get UHF signals from 33 miles away with little difficulty.


One other nice thing about your situation is that, although these two stations come from different directions, one is VHF and the other is UHF. So, you can tack up a folded-dipole antenna in one direction, the UHF antenna in a different direction, and combine then together with a simple VHF/UHF combiner. You won't have to reposition the antenna when you change between the two channels. WOTV Battle Creek, being that it's practically in your backyard, will probably boom in regardless of where you put the antenna.


----------



## SteveMSU

Thanks for taking so much time to research and reply. My issue is that Comcast in my area doesn't currently carry a HD CBS. I don't want to miss out on March Madness so I'm trying to get something figured out sooner rather then later. I'll try the $50 radio shack antenna I bought for the heck of it, and then try the Silver Sensor.


----------



## PhilJSmith67

No problem, Steve.


If you decide to go the route of the homemade folded-dipole, check out this link on how to construct it yourself with about $5 worth of twin-lead cable (and a balun coil / matching transformer of course):

http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html 


There is also an entire thread on AVS Forum devoted to VHF-Low reception issues...

The Official VHF-Low (2-6) Reception Thread


----------



## thagatman

I am interested in getting HDTV to my house and need to understand what my options are. I am currently a dishnet customer and have looked at their website and see they do offer some channels in HD. It also says you will need some additional hardware in addition to the sattelite I already have.


I'm really interested in getting the local channels that are broadcast over the air and perhaps the dishnet package as well, I'm not sure yet.


After some research I have discoverd there any many different types of antenna's (indoor/outdoor - multidirectional/bidirectional and then a size) and I don't really know what I will need. In addition, I don't know how the reception is where I am located......


My address is:

32621 36th Ave. SW

Federal Way, WA 98023


If anyone has information I would be very greatful.


Thanks -

Glen (thegatman)


----------



## Delerium

I am hoping some of you with your infinite knowledge can shed some light on my situation. I have been searching for a roof-top antenna to help bring in the following channels...


red - uhf KFXP 31 FOX POCATELLO ID 30° 5.5 31

red - vhf KPVI 6 NBC POCATELLO ID 30° 5.5 6

* red - uhf KPVI-DT 23.1 NBC POCATELLO ID 30° 5.5 23

blue - uhf K15DG 15 TBN POCATELLO ID 206° 5.0 15

blue - vhf K12OA 12 NBC POCATELLO ID 205° 1.4 12

blue - uhf K61FO 61 ABC POCATELLO ID 167° 2.5 61

violet - vhf KIDK 3 CBS IDAHO FALLS ID 330° 45.4 3

violet - vhf KIFI 8 ABC IDAHO FALLS ID 331° 45.5 8

violet - vhf KISU 10 PBS POCATELLO ID 330° 45.6 10


After doing some research, I found that Channel Master, Winegard, and Antennas Direct are all companies that have quality products but I can't seem to make a decision on a specific model. I need a VHF/UHF antenna and would appreciate any advice you may have to help my decision making process a little easier.


Thanks, in advance, for your help.


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by thagatman_
> *I....I'm really interested in getting the local channels that are broadcast over the air and perhaps ....Glen (thegatman)*



Glen,


Copy & paste the link below to see the HDTV stations near you

http://www.2150.com/broadcast/defaul...=Show+Stations 


Call KPCQ and ask for the Engineering Dept. They are a bunch of good guys at that station. That part of the country has too many hills, ridges, and mountains to get a valid answer on the web. At best, folks would be guessing.


The guys at KCPQ should have an idea if you can get either of the Tribune stations (Fox & WB) and are probably willing to share what you can or cannot expect to get from the rest of the nets.


Bob Chase

KHWB, Houston, TX


----------



## Brian J




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *All the channels are very close together and a join tenna to notch specfic frequencies is very expensive. I'm not sure but I don't think you can notch adjacent channels like 34 and 35. Probably can with enough money.
> 
> If you don't want a rotor the easiest way to do this is to make a seperate RG6 run from the second antenna and get an A/B switch. You than simply switch between the antennas when you want to watch FOX and WB. Radio Shack has both manual and remote controled A/B switches. The remote one is about $30 the manual about $3 at most places.
> 
> 
> Make sure you don't mount one antenna in front of the other. Try if possible to have their backs side facing each other for max. F/B ratio.*



Thanks jimc705,


Running the second coax is no problem since I wired my theater with plenty of extra RG6 to an accesable location. The problem is that I'm using a myHD card for recording and I'm not sure how to incorporate an A/B switch or rotor into the scheduled recordings. There might be someone in the HTPC forum who has figured this out.


Brian J


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Delerium_
> *I am hoping some of you with your infinite knowledge can shed some light on my situation. I have been searching for a roof-top antenna to help bring in the following channels...
> 
> 
> red - uhf KFXP 31 FOX POCATELLO ID 30° 5.5 31
> 
> red - vhf KPVI 6 NBC POCATELLO ID 30° 5.5 6
> 
> * red - uhf KPVI-DT 23.1 NBC POCATELLO ID 30° 5.5 23
> 
> blue - uhf K15DG 15 TBN POCATELLO ID 206° 5.0 15
> 
> blue - vhf K12OA 12 NBC POCATELLO ID 205° 1.4 12
> 
> blue - uhf K61FO 61 ABC POCATELLO ID 167° 2.5 61
> 
> violet - vhf KIDK 3 CBS IDAHO FALLS ID 330° 45.4 3
> 
> violet - vhf KIFI 8 ABC IDAHO FALLS ID 331° 45.5 8
> 
> violet - vhf KISU 10 PBS POCATELLO ID 330° 45.6 10
> 
> 
> After doing some research, I found that Channel Master, Winegard, and Antennas Direct are all companies that have quality products but I can't seem to make a decision on a specific model. I need a VHF/UHF antenna and would appreciate any advice you may have to help my decision making process a little easier.
> 
> 
> Thanks, in advance, for your help.*



Looks like you in pretty good shape. Most of these are analog channels except one. Have you no interest in the digital equals ofthese channels?


At any rate you'll need a rotor Cm 9521a is a good one. If you are just looking for the analogs any half descent combo will pick up 45 miles fairly easy as long as the terrain alows. Winegard HD 7082 or 7084 Channel Master 3679 or 3678. Antannas direct doesn't have any good long range combo's. I would not use an amp being just 5 miles from the closest station you may have overload. If you find you need an amp you have to get one with a high input signal.


Now if you want the digital equals.

KIDK digital is on UHF channel 36

check and see if you are in their low power coverage area here.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DS596687.html 

KIFI digital is VHF 9
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DS674193.html 

KISU is at full power UHF channel 17
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DT623134.html 


Since you are close to pocatello looks like you should get KIFI DT 9 and KISU DT17 now and when KIDK DT36 goes full power you should get it. I'd go with seperates for UHF and VHF. I'd get a 91xg Antennas Direct for the UHF's and a high band yagi for VHF the only low band that leaves is 3 and you are close enough you should get that on either antenna. Links are below to take a look. The 91xg will definetly get the low powered UHF digitals and a 10 element high band should do the rest. You also need a UHF / VHF joiner #CM 0549.

You could also use the combo 3678 or 3671 CM antennas or the Winegard hd7084 or hd8200. These are the biggest and best combos. They will not do quit as well as seperates but are an easier install. If you have no mountain or terrain problems they should work as well.

http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm 
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm 
http://www.antennasdirect.com/LongRangeAntennas.htm


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by thagatman_
> *I am interested in getting HDTV to my house and need to understand what my options are. I am currently a dishnet customer and have looked at their website and see they do offer some channels in HD. It also says you will need some additional hardware in addition to the sattelite I already have.
> 
> 
> I'm really interested in getting the local channels that are broadcast over the air and perhaps the dishnet package as well, I'm not sure yet.
> 
> 
> After some research I have discoverd there any many different types of antenna's (indoor/outdoor - multidirectional/bidirectional and then a size) and I don't really know what I will need. In addition, I don't know how the reception is where I am located......
> 
> 
> My address is:
> 
> 32621 36th Ave. SW
> 
> Federal Way, WA 98023
> 
> 
> If anyone has information I would be very greatful.
> 
> 
> Thanks -
> 
> Glen (thegatman)*



You are less then 30 miles from many digital stations. If you have a direct line of sight you can get by with a fairly small UHF for all your digitals are UHF. If you are at a base of a mountain that's between you and Seattle or Tacoma it's going to be more difficult. Direct line of sight a CM 4221 or Antennas Direct DB4 should do the trick. If at bottom of mountain then well need more particulars or takes Bob's advice and call your local station.


You'll need a Dish receiver either 811 or 921 which both have built in ATSC digital tuner for OTA reception. You'll also need a rotor CM 9521a to get all the stations on your list. Look at these links.

http://www.solidsignal.com/search_re...arch_crit=4221 

http://www.antennasdirect.com/MediumRangeAntennas.htm 

http://www.solidsignal.com/search_re...1.x=14&I1.y=12


----------



## Delerium

jimc705,


Thanks for your response. I would like to get as many of the digital channels as possible; I was only aware of the one NBC and didn't realize there were others available in my area. I went to antennaweb.org and typed in my zip code (83201) and copy/pasted the lineup in my post. There was no mention of any other digital stations, except the one.


I am willing to use separates if the results are better than using a combo VHF/UHF antenna (and if it is not much more difficult to install). I do like the 91xg for UHF but what would you recommend for VHF. Do you have any experience/preferences with any of the models you mentioned? I apologize for all the newbie questions but I just want to make sure I do this right the first time so I don't have to do it again.


Thanks again for all your help.


----------



## CZ Eddie

Antennaweb.org says I need a "large directional with preamp" for my area. Could someone suggest something or point me to a page # on this [long] thread with suggestions?


Thanks!


----------



## Rack

 http://www.starkelectronic.com/del937.htm 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...=&PROD=ANC7777


----------



## CZ Eddie

Thanks, Rack. Bookmarked!


That one antenna is 16' long :lol:


----------



## ElVee

Well, I've ordered the Channel Master CM3671 and CM9521A rotator. They should be here tomorrow.


Now of course, I'm starting to think that I may have an issue with using this antenna and rotator together. According to the Channel Master description of the CM3671, the antenna height is 35.4", length is 173" and width is 110".


Is this too big for the CM9521A rotator to support?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Delerium_
> *I am willing to use separates if the results are better than using a combo VHF/UHF antenna (and if it is not much more difficult to install). I do like the 91xg for UHF but what would you recommend for VHF.*



If you're going to use a rotor, you'll need a ball-bearing mount (Stark Electronics has one) to support the weight of both a large VHF and a large UHF antenna. The problem is that they need to be a few feet apart, and the further from the rotor you get, the higher the torque from wind.


Personally, I'd recommend the Winegard 7084P for your purposes. It's a solid UHF and VHF performer for up to 60 miles. The 91XG is a great antenna, but is probably more than you need.


----------



## ElVee




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *If you're going to use a rotor, you'll need a ball-bearing mount (Stark Electronics has one) to support the weight of both a large VHF and a large UHF antenna. The problem is that they need to be a few feet apart, and the further from the rotor you get, the higher the torque from wind.*



And if they're too close together - say a foot or less?


----------



## daoust501




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by daoust501_
> *I'm going to go with option A. I'll upgrade to the DB8 and see what I see. Will post back to let you know if it makes a difference. Thanks to all for the help.*



The DB8 was no better in my situation. What DOES work in my attic is a Silver Sensor attached to a CM7775 pre amp. Getting solid reception from FOX, which is all I'm after for now! Thanks to all.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ElVee_
> *And if they're too close together - say a foot or less?*



Then they have the opportunity to interact with each other. Much as we'd prefer that antennas be perfectly benign when placed near other objects, they bend signals. (In fact, this is what "gain" is.) That bending can work in our favor or against it. If you place two antennas too close together (and this varies by wavelength,) the end result is almost always worse than better. You can end up with multipath, or a weaker signal. I'd say 3' is a minimum.


----------



## ElVee




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *Then they have the opportunity to interact with each other. Much as we'd prefer that antennas be perfectly benign when placed near other objects, they bend signals. (In fact, this is what "gain" is.) That bending can work in our favor or against it. If you place two antennas too close together (and this varies by wavelength,) the end result is almost always worse than better. You can end up with multipath, or a weaker signal. I'd say 3' is a minimum.*



I really appreciate all the help.


I'm not sure I understand. Are you talking about mounting a VHF and a UHF antenna too close together? I don't think that's what I'm trying to do (unless the CM3671 is really two separate antennae).


I'm talking about mounting a CM-3671 UHF/VHF antenna with an CM9521A rotator and a ball-bearing mount between the two - to hold the antenna more securely. I meant the distance between the roator and the ball-bearing mount. Does that need to be 3' or can it be less? I currently have a small J arm mounted to my chimney specifically for the anytenna. (My Phase III dish is mounted with it's own J arm). If so, I'd need to get a longer J arm.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Delerium_
> *jimc705,
> 
> 
> Thanks for your response. I would like to get as many of the digital channels as possible; I was only aware of the one NBC and didn't realize there were others available in my area. I went to antennaweb.org and typed in my zip code (83201) and copy/pasted the lineup in my post. There was no mention of any other digital stations, except the one.
> 
> 
> I am willing to use separates if the results are better than using a combo VHF/UHF antenna (and if it is not much more difficult to install). I do like the 91xg for UHF but what would you recommend for VHF. Do you have any experience/preferences with any of the models you mentioned? I apologize for all the newbie questions but I just want to make sure I do this right the first time so I don't have to do it again.
> 
> 
> Thanks again for all your help.*



Antennaweb.org is a good place to start but they are extremely conservative as to what you actually will get. If you are in the coverage areas I sent you and no huge mountains to get over you should get the additional digitals. In my case they show to Digitals one 17 miles the other about 28 miles. I actually get 5 digitals as far as 60 to 70 miles. I get another 7 from Knoxville 40 to 50 miles. One from NC about 60 miles. All reliable and no drops. I do have a few mountains to get over but most are straight up the valley.


You can use a 10 element high band. You can get them and see a pix of them at Starke Electronic. They run about $30 I believe.
http://www.starkelectronic.com/acantena.htm#Y10 


This weighs only about 4 lbs. and the UHF weighs in at 6.5 lbs.

Ideally they should be mounted seprately but can be mounted on the same mast. Channel Master recommends 7 feet apart for the antennas not to interact with each other. 5 feet apart will be min. Put the biggest and heavier toward the bottom. which is almost a toss up here.

Channel 3 is a low band but you are but 5 miles from it and should receive it with no problem. You will need a join teanna 0549 from Starke or others on the web or locally. Solid signal is a little cheaper and have experts to help you with mounting etc.


Cost should put you around the $200 mark with a rotor.


You may find this sight useful for terms and info and the CM sight for mounting.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html 

http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/AntInstallGuide.pdf 


Pix of the 7084 if you decide to go with a signal combo.
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/hd7084p.pdf 


The difference between the combo and seperates is mainly multipath resistance. Combo beamwidth is about 40 degrees at UHF frequencies as you can see. The UHF yagi is as low as 20 degress. A slight better gain then a combo but comparing the best CM UHF 4228 with the 7084

winegard at the channels you want 17 and 36.

4228 gain channel 17 about 11.5 DB

4228 gain channel 36 about 12 DB

HD 7084 gain ch 17 about 13 DB

hd 7084 gain ch 36 about 12 db


So as you can see the 7084 actually exceeds the 4228 in this case. The 91xg is a little better db gain but they don't give channel breakdown gain.

The 7084 can be purchased for around $120 .
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...=&PROD=SHD7084 

You also may have a local Winegard dealer .


The choice is yours either antenna will perform well for what you need. The combo also will get 3 and 6 better then the seperates although I don't see that as a problem for analog. My UHF gets channel 5and 11 60 miles out off the back side.


Good Luck with your quest.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ElVee_
> *I really appreciate all the help.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure I understand. Are you talking about mounting a VHF and a UHF antenna too close together? I don't think that's what I'm trying to do (unless the CM3671 is really two separate antennae).
> 
> 
> I'm talking about mounting a CM-3671 UHF/VHF antenna with an CM9521A rotator and a ball-bearing mount between the two - to hold the antenna more securely. I meant the distance between the roator and the ball-bearing mount. Does that need to be 3' or can it be less? I currently have a small J arm mounted to my chimney specifically for the anytenna. (My Phase III dish is mounted with it's own J arm). If so, I'd need to get a longer J arm.*



No only mounting to antennas close together. The ball bearing you have can be mounted and should be mounted much closer.

scrool to alignment bearing.
http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/AntInstallGuide.pdf 


The 3671 is a combo both UHF and VHF but does not apply.


----------



## ElVee




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *No only mounting to antennas close together. The ball bearing you have can be mounted and should be mounted much closer.
> 
> scrool to alignment bearing.
> http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/AntInstallGuide.pdf
> 
> 
> The 3671 is a combo both UHF and VHF but does not apply.*



Great. Thanks so much to all who've helped.


----------



## imott

I am putting up a 30' ground mounted mast on which I will mount my CM4221. I am using 18' of 2" thick wall(1/8" thick) and 12' of 2" thin wall(058). I can mount the CM4221 to the top of the mast using U-bolts. However, I would like to maximize the potential height and mount the CM4221 into the top of the mast. The CM4221 has a swaged base that will fit into a 1 1/4" mast. I am looking for a recommendation on how I might reduce my 2" mast in order to receive the 1 1/4" base of my CM4221.

Thanks!

i


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *The difference between the combo and seperates is mainly multipath resistance.
> 
> 
> ...So as you can see the 7084 actually exceeds the 4228 in this case.*



Last point first: As there is no standard way to measure gain, comparing gain numbers between manufacturers is meaningless. Comparing gain numbers between models by the same manufacturer is meaningful, however. Thus, comparing the 4228 and the 7084P by their published gain numbers is fraught with peril.


I disagree that a combo has a larger beamwidth and thus less multipath resistance. If you compare a UHF-only antenna that has the same gain and front-to-back ratio, and is of the same design, then it doesn't matter if there's a VHF section behind it or not - that's what it's beamwidth will be. UHF sections of most UHF/VHF combos are hybrid corner-reflector/yagi designs, with the yagi only really coming to the fore around channel 40 or so. Under that, you've just got a corner reflector.


If you were to stack 8 of the 7084Ps in a similar configuration to the 4228, you'd probably end up with a very narrow beamwidth as well. (You'd also have a major problem when it becomes breezy.) The 4228 is a stack of 8 identical antennas, in a 4x2 array, which is what makes it so precise directionally. You shouldn't compare different designs of antenna and then blame one on being a combo.


My opinion is that the 7084P is a great UHF/VHF combo antenna. I had one and had good results on stations inside of 60 miles, in spite of the fact that I didn't have line-of-sight, and didn't have much elevation on my antenna. When I bought my tower, I switched to an 8200P, and I thought it was a hair better (hard to say for sure, since I also more than doubled the elevation) but that most of the improvement was on VHF. Now that I have an AntennasDirect 91XG, I think it's the best of the bunch, blowing away the 8200P. I am also trying to receive signals over the radio horizon, over long distances, from a relatively sunken elevation. IOW, the impossible. For signals that match the distance and power he's after, the 7084P should be plenty of antenna.


There comes a point where you have to say, "This antenna is good enough to do the job." There are always bigger, badder antennas out there. There will be a new batch that make the old ones look ugly. But if you're getting the signals you want, and they don't break up, who cares?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ElVee_
> *I really appreciate all the help.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure I understand. Are you talking about mounting a VHF and a UHF antenna too close together? I don't think that's what I'm trying to do (unless the CM3671 is really two separate antennae).
> 
> 
> I'm talking about mounting a CM-3671 UHF/VHF antenna with an CM9521A rotator and a ball-bearing mount between the two - to hold the antenna more securely. I meant the distance between the roator and the ball-bearing mount. Does that need to be 3' or can it be less? I currently have a small J arm mounted to my chimney specifically for the anytenna. (My Phase III dish is mounted with it's own J arm). If so, I'd need to get a longer J arm.*



This thread seems a little busy right now, but I think this needs to be addressed further. There should be no problem with mounting the 3671 directly to that rotor as long as you keep the lever arm short i.e. mount the antenna no more than a foot above the rotor, the shorter the better. The real problem is the chimney mount you desribe is not likely to be sturdy enough to hold this and will be the weakest point in your installation. An antenna of this size needs a sturdy mount i.e. ground mount, long wall mount, or guyed roof mount.


----------



## ElVee




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *This thread seems a little busy right now, but I think this needs to be addressed further. There should be no problem with mounting the 3671 directly to that rotor as long as you keep the lever arm short i.e. mount the antenna no more than a foot above the rotor, the shorter the better. The real problem is the chimney mount you desribe is not likely to be sturdy enough to hold this and will be the weakest point in your installation. An antenna of this size needs a sturdy mount i.e. ground mount, long wall mount, or guyed roof mount.*



I'm in a 4 story brownstone.


At this height, I agree that I might be able to use a short lever arm, say 1-2 feet. Perhaps, instead of the J arm (which is bolted in with 4 lag bolts), I use metal straps wrapped around the chimney, coupled with a support bearing also mounted to the chimney.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ElVee_
> *I'm in a 4 story brownstone.
> 
> 
> At this height, I agree that I might be able to use a short lever arm, say 1-2 feet. Perhaps, instead of the J arm (which is bolted in with 4 lag bolts), I use metal straps wrapped around the chimney, coupled with a support bearing also mounted to the chimney.*



Looking back at your original post and your location, why do you need VHF at all? Are you going after analog stations? All the digitals in Philly are UHF and the only VHF you have is a PBS on 8 in NYC. There's another NYC UHF PBS digital even if you can't pick up 8 (which you probably can even with a UHF antenna because you're so close). The XG91 is your best bet as it's higher performance on UHF than the CM3671 and *much* smaller, lighter, easier on your installation and your rotor. I'm sorry you've already ordered that monster antenna.


----------



## Delerium

jimc705 and sregener,


Thank you both for your input. I am leaning toward the 91xg and adding a VHF antenna later, however, I have a couple more questions.


In order to receive the digital stations with my antenna, would I also have to buy an hdtv tuner? I already own a hd television but it doesn't have the built-in tuner. Without purchasing a tuner, would I still get the digital stations in standard definition or would I get nothing at all? Obviously, I am quite new to all of this hd technology so any information you both may have is incredibly helpful.


Finally, what type of roof-mount would you recommend for this setup? I do live in an area where we get pretty strong winds (30-40mph) regularly. Since I do not have a chimney, it seems my only options are a tripod mount or attaching a mast to the side of the house. Which would be easier to mount or better suited for windy conditions? Also, I saw antennasdirect sells a J-style mast, as well. Would this be a better alternative?


Again, I apologize for my ignorance and I can't thank you enough for your help.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *Last point first: As there is no standard way to measure gain, comparing gain numbers between manufacturers is meaningless. Comparing gain numbers between models by the same manufacturer is meaningful, however. Thus, comparing the 4228 and the 7084P by their published gain numbers is fraught with peril.
> 
> 
> I disagree that a combo has a larger beamwidth and thus less multipath resistance. If you compare a UHF-only antenna that has the same gain and front-to-back ratio, and is of the same design, then it doesn't matter if there's a VHF section behind it or not - that's what it's beamwidth will be. UHF sections of most UHF/VHF combos are hybrid corner-reflector/yagi designs, with the yagi only really coming to the fore around channel 40 or so. Under that, you've just got a corner reflector.
> 
> 
> If you were to stack 8 of the 7084Ps in a similar configuration to the 4228, you'd probably end up with a very narrow beamwidth as well. (You'd also have a major problem when it becomes breezy.) The 4228 is a stack of 8 identical antennas, in a 4x2 array, which is what makes it so precise directionally. You shouldn't compare different designs of antenna and then blame one on being a combo.
> 
> 
> My opinion is that the 7084P is a great UHF/VHF combo antenna. I had one and had good results on stations inside of 60 miles, in spite of the fact that I didn't have line-of-sight, and didn't have much elevation on my antenna. When I bought my tower, I switched to an 8200P, and I thought it was a hair better (hard to say for sure, since I also more than doubled the elevation) but that most of the improvement was on VHF. Now that I have an AntennasDirect 91XG, I think it's the best of the bunch, blowing away the 8200P. I am also trying to receive signals over the radio horizon, over long distances, from a relatively sunken elevation. IOW, the impossible. For signals that match the distance and power he's after, the 7084P should be plenty of antenna.
> 
> 
> There comes a point where you have to say, "This antenna is good enough to do the job." There are always bigger, badder antennas out there. There will be a new batch that make the old ones look ugly. But if you're getting the signals you want, and they don't break up, who cares?*



Allow me to respectfully disagree on not being able to rate gain of one antanna over the other. I agree it's not an exact sciense but both are rated in refernce to a folded dipole (dbd) thus greating and equal starting point. After talking with CM techs and Winegard techs this is their reference point. This is true for only Winegard and Channel Master. Other manufacturers rate theirs differently. I agree it doesn't mean a whole lot unless there are fairly large differences and really doesn't mean that one is better then the other in a particular situtaion. In real life trail and error but it's all we have to use for comparison.


OK I'll give you the beamwidth arguement. If they made such an animal as exact combo and exact same uhf design then just because it's a combo it's beamwidth is not wider. However we must use the specs they give us. The fact is the 7084 doesn't have the same beamwidth as the 4228. I agree not because it's a combo. Sorry maybe used the wrong wording.


As for the 91XG I agree it's one of the best UHF antennas. I have one myself. I also have a 7084p and believe me there's a beamwidth difference. There's also a slight gain difference. Of courseif the beamwidth is narrower the gain will be more. Both are above par of the competitors.


Didn't mean to start an antenna war. Sorry if I offended anyone.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Delerium_
> *jimc705 and sregener,
> 
> 
> Thank you both for your input. I am leaning toward the 91xg and adding a VHF antenna later, however, I have a couple more questions.
> 
> 
> In order to receive the digital stations with my antenna, would I also have to buy an hdtv tuner? I already own a hd television but it doesn't have the built-in tuner. Without purchasing a tuner, would I still get the digital stations in standard definition or would I get nothing at all? Obviously, I am quite new to all of this hd technology so any information you both may have is incredibly helpful.
> 
> 
> Finally, what type of roof-mount would you recommend for this setup? I do live in an area where we get pretty strong winds (30-40mph) regularly. Since I do not have a chimney, it seems my only options are a tripod mount or attaching a mast to the side of the house. Which would be easier to mount or better suited for windy conditions? Also, I saw antennasdirect sells a J-style mast, as well. Would this be a better alternative?
> 
> 
> Again, I apologize for my ignorance and I can't thank you enough for your help.*



You'll need a separate tuner or all you'll get is good old analog.


The strongest mount without guying is a ground mount. You can also do a long wall mount. Here's a pic of a ground mount. The wall mounts (Channel Master, RS) are available from starkelectronics and others and come in various sizes depending on your needed offset from the wall. I've seen others online even up to 24 inches. The top attachment is the uppermost section of an eave mount. The more spacing you have between attachments, the better, as it increases the mechanical advantage of the mount in resisting torque created by wind on the top-loaded mast. Obviously, it's optimal for the ground to support the vertical load as well.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Delerium_
> *jimc705 and sregener,
> 
> 
> Thank you both for your input. I am leaning toward the 91xg and adding a VHF antenna later, however, I have a couple more questions.
> 
> 
> In order to receive the digital stations with my antenna, would I also have to buy an hdtv tuner? I already own a hd television but it doesn't have the built-in tuner. Without purchasing a tuner, would I still get the digital stations in standard definition or would I get nothing at all? Obviously, I am quite new to all of this hd technology so any information you both may have is incredibly helpful.
> 
> 
> Finally, what type of roof-mount would you recommend for this setup? I do live in an area where we get pretty strong winds (30-40mph) regularly. Since I do not have a chimney, it seems my only options are a tripod mount or attaching a mast to the side of the house. Which would be easier to mount or better suited for windy conditions? Also, I saw antennasdirect sells a J-style mast, as well. Would this be a better alternative?
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I apologize for my ignorance and I can't thank you enough for your help.*



Yes you'll need a STB (SET TOP BOX) tuner. You are correct without it you'll get dead air as if there's no signal. As for the mount I think a wall mount will probably be more stable but I have mine on a tripod and have taken on 50 MPH winds. This is with the bigger 7084 and is not rountine but rare here. If you are just going to mount the 91xg either will probably work for wind load is low on that antenna. Try to keep the height above the rotor as short as possible and you should be OK. CPCAT has an excellent mount that he may be able to send you a pix. It's heavy duty and will hold just about anything they make. Goes from gound to roof top as for cost I don't think it's too expensive.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *Allow me to respectfully disagree on not being able to rate gain of one antanna over the other. I agree it's not an exact sciense but both are rated in refernce to a folded dipole (dbd) thus greating and equal starting point. After talking with CM techs and Winegard techs this is their reference point. This is true for only Winegard and Channel Master. Other manufacturers rate theirs differently. I agree it doesn't mean a whole lot unless there are fairly large differences and really doesn't mean that one is better then the other in a particular situtaion. In real life trail and error but it's all we have to use for comparison.
> 
> *



I think Winegard overestimates their gain figures. Compare the gain CM quotes for the 3671 to the claimed gain for the Winegard 8200p.

These are fairly equivalent antennas overall. Also notice the UHF gain comparisons between the CM 4228 and the 8200p.

http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg2.htm 
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg5.htm 

and
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/hd8200p.pdf 


There's no way the 8200p is that much better than the 3671. I think CM's figures are probably more accurate and make sense with my experience. The CM 4228 is also a better UHF performer than the 8200p but you'd say they were equivalent looking at the gain figures.


----------



## Delerium

First of all, let me thank everyone who has been helping me with my decision. I am close to deciding on an antenna...Just one more question.


For my location (83201) would there be any advantage to going with a bowtie style antenna such as the DB8 or the CM 4228 (without rotor) or am I still better off with the 91xg (with rotor)? What might the bowtie style offer that the yagi wouldn't and vice-versa? Would one provide a better quality picture?


Thanks again.


----------



## imott




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by imott_
> *I am putting up a 30' ground mounted mast on which I will mount my CM4221. I am using 18' of 2" thick wall(1/8" thick) and 12' of 2" thin wall(058). I can mount the CM4221 to the top of the mast using U-bolts. However, I would like to maximize the potential height and mount the CM4221 into the top of the mast. The CM4221 has a swaged base that will fit into a 1 1/4" mast. I am looking for a recommendation on how I might reduce my 2" mast in order to securely receive the 1 1/4" base of my CM4221.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> i*



Anyone?

thx


----------



## MAX HD

Need to know what the ID is on the 2" thinwall before recommending a transition solution.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Delerium_
> *First of all, let me thank everyone who has been helping me with my decision. I am close to deciding on an antenna...Just one more question.
> 
> 
> For my location (83201) would there be any advantage to going with a bowtie style antenna such as the DB8 or the CM 4228 (without rotor) or am I still better off with the 91xg (with rotor)? What might the bowtie style offer that the yagi wouldn't and vice-versa? Would one provide a better quality picture?
> 
> 
> Thanks again.*



It looks like to me you're likely to need a rotor. Your towers are spaced out quite a bit. The 8-bay will do a little better on channels 14-40 while the xg91 will do better above 40. The 8-bay is hard on a rotor though.

See http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/...tion.asp?m=ida for your local area stations. Click on the analog station's "complete FCC info" for all the lowdown on their digital.


The PQ is unaffected either way as long as you have a stable signal.


----------



## robonhood

Just for your information. I am in Yorktown, Va. I am fortunate that most of the OTA towers are from 192-197 degress at 30 miles. I have tried two differnt Terk anntenns 3 channel with on and four with the other. Also, tried two different Radio Shack and One Winegard. The best I have found yet is the Zenith Silver Sensor with it I get 24 OTA digital channels and some (13-33) of the analog. I mounted the Silver Sensor under the eaves of my house(I know it is supposed to be indoor only.) To make the mount I screwed a 3/4 inch PVC cap to my eave, attaced a two inch piece of PVC to that and then finally a Tee connection through which I ran the cable. I then wedged the antenna into the elbow to maintain the recommended 15 degree slope. According to the diagnostics on my TV I am getting Fox at 92 percent and 29 SNR. The best is ABC at 98 percent and 30 SNR. Most of the channels are coming in at between 78 and 84 percent. I can change that of course by just rotating the antenna a little and that is easy to do since I can reach it from the steps oy my porch. Can't wait for the Super Bowl.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by robonhood_
> *Just for your information. I am in Yorktown, Va. I am fortunate that most of the OTA towers are from 192-197 degress at 30 miles. I have tried two differnt Terk anntenns 3 channel with on and four with the other. Also, tried two different Radio Shack and One Winegard. The best I have found yet is the Zenith Silver Sensor with it I get 24 OTA digital channels and some (13-33) of the analog. I mounted the Silver Sensor under the eaves of my house(I know it is supposed to be indoor only.) To make the mount I screwed a 3/4 inch PVC cap to my eave, attaced a two inch piece of PVC to that and then finally a Tee connection through which I ran the cable. I then wedged the antenna into the elbow to maintain the recommended 15 degree slope. According to the diagnostics on my TV I am getting Fox at 92 percent and 29 SNR. The best is ABC at 98 percent and 30 SNR. Most of the channels are coming in at between 78 and 84 percent. I can change that of course by just rotating the antenna a little and that is easy to do since I can reach it from the steps oy my porch. Can't wait for the Super Bowl.*



That's great.! I wish we all could get away with that set up. I lived in Richmond VA for several years and know the area where you are located . Delivered to the naval weapon stations many times.

What kind of set / tuner you using that gives you S/N ration % ? That's a great feature. Should put it on all tuners.

You are in a perfect spot for digital reception. I assume you get DC , Norfolk, maybe some eatern shore from MD. and Richmond. Far enough out that multipath isn't a problem, especially since it's flat, and a lot of water for the signal to carry. Congrats on your signals. All we have here are a lot of mountaims and valleys.


You a Philly fan?

I'm pulling for the pats again. There not my team but my team is setting at home watching. I have a 109" 16 x9 screen to watch the Super bowl in hi def here. Going to have a small party with lot's of cold ones.


Thanks for letting others know about your set up and how it's doing.

Take care.


----------



## robonhood

I have the Sony KDF-42WE665.


----------



## ElVee




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *Looking back at your original post and your location, why do you need VHF at all? Are you going after analog stations? All the digitals in Philly are UHF and the only VHF you have is a PBS on 8 in NYC. There's another NYC UHF PBS digital even if you can't pick up 8 (which you probably can even with a UHF antenna because you're so close). The XG91 is your best bet as it's higher performance on UHF than the CM3671 and *much* smaller, lighter, easier on your installation and your rotor. I'm sorry you've already ordered that monster antenna.*



I'm going to re-think the whole thing.


I got started thinking about all this because the original Wingard GS-1100 I received from DirecTv doesn't pick up all of my locals (as it's currently pointed). The bulk of my locals are at either 70 degrees and 116 degrees. I have my antenna pointed at about 90 degrees. At this position, I do not pick up my local CBS (2) and ABC (7) stations. I can get my NBC (4), FOX (on 38-4 instead of 5), UPN (on 38-3 instead of 9) and WB (11). If I move the antenna slightly towards 70 degrees, I can get the local CBS and if I move it slightly towards 116 degrees, I can get the local ABC. This is when I decided to try a rotator. Then I thought, as long as I'm getting a rotator, let me try to pull in some stations from further away with a better antenna.


To make a long story short, I'm going to mount the rotator with the original Wingard and see how that works first. If that works well, then great. I'll return the CM2671. If not, then I'll have to make a decision to either try the CM3671 or return it for some thing else.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ElVee_
> *I'm in a 4 story brownstone.
> 
> 
> At this height, I agree that I might be able to use a short lever arm, say 1-2 feet. Perhaps, instead of the J arm (which is bolted in with 4 lag bolts), I use metal straps wrapped around the chimney, coupled with a support bearing also mounted to the chimney.*



Masonry is not designed to handle lateral forces. That is exactly what wind load on an antenna gives. You need to guy this antenna at a minimum, and consider a different type of mount. Otherwise, you could end up with your antenna (and part of your chimney) on the ground in a twisted heap.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *I agree it's not an exact sciense but both are rated in refernce to a folded dipole (dbd) thus greating and equal starting point.
> 
> 
> OK I'll give you the beamwidth arguement. If they made such an animal as exact combo and exact same uhf design then just because it's a combo it's beamwidth is not wider. However we must use the specs they give us. The fact is the 7084 doesn't have the same beamwidth as the 4228. I agree not because it's a combo. Sorry maybe used the wrong wording.
> 
> 
> As for the 91XG I agree it's one of the best UHF antennas. I have one myself. I also have a 7084p and believe me there's a beamwidth difference. There's also a slight gain difference. Of courseif the beamwidth is narrower the gain will be more. Both are above par of the competitors.
> *



Do you know if the reference dipole is tuned to the channel being measured, or not? See, you can use a "reference dipole" that is tuned to, say, channel 67, and then measure your antenna on channel 32 and - gosh! - you have a great gain figure. But compared to a reference dipole tuned to channel 32, the differene may be much less. There are a number of tricks a company can use to get their gain numbers. I think Winegard's are overinflated compared to Channel Master's, but I have no proof to back that up.


It's easy to find an exact combo vs. uhf design. They're all out there. Measure the distance of the combo's UHF section and find a UHF-only yagi/corner-reflector of the same length and the beamwidth should be comparable.


The 91XG is 93" long. The UHF section on the Winegard 7084P is closer to 80" (and is, IIRC, a little shorter than that.) You'd expect the 91XG to outperform it, even without the specialized elements that 91XG has (which increase gain even more.)


This isn't an antenna war. I'm just trying to be precise. The Channel Master 4228 outperforms all the Winegard models (except for the PR8800, which only outperforms the Channel Master below channel 30.) I don't care what Winegard advertises. The real world says the 4228 is the champ of these two company's offerings.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Delerium_
> *For my location (83201) would there be any advantage to going with a bowtie style antenna such as the DB8 or the CM 4228 (without rotor) or am I still better off with the 91xg (with rotor)? What might the bowtie style offer that the yagi wouldn't and vice-versa? Would one provide a better quality picture?
> *



It's impossible to say which one is better. There are people who have tried yagi after yagi after yagi and had no luck, who then switched to a bowtie design and got everything they wanted. There are others who started with bowties and ended up using a yagi.


Generally speaking, a yagi will perform great above channel 30, while a bowtie will perform best below channel 50. There's some variation between models, but that's a good general rule.


I'd try the one that seems the best fit for your location (if you want a rotor, for instance, the yagi is the way to go) and see if it works. If it doesn't, then you can consider a switch.


AntennasDirect guarantees satisfaction, so you'd only be out shipping if you weren't satisfied with the 91XG. I'd pick the DB8 over the CM4228 because of the superior connections.


Once you get a digital lock (with no breakups, no dropouts) there is no difference in picture. This differs from analog, where your eyes are more sensitive than a digital tuner is to imperfections in the signal.


----------



## imott




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by MAX HD_
> *Need to know what the ID is on the 2" thinwall before recommending a transition solution.*



Thank you for responding.


The tubing wall thickness is .058". This would make the ID 1.884".


Thx

i


----------



## rldud

I posted questions back on 1-29 about receiving a low power signal from Fox at channel 57. I had a good picture when I first tried the Winegard 9032 about 10 feet above the peak on a clear day, but when I mounted it about 14 feet the picture was not good at all. This was during cloudy weather and rain that hug around for several days now. Yesterday I was able to try adjusting the height while it was still overcast and the reception was the best at the higher elevation. I guess I am just going to have to live with what I have until they raise the power.


----------



## Rack

MAX HD!

We're starting to see channel election moves, and it seems to me that stations are moving off VHF-lo (at least here in Chicago). But I don't think they'll move off VHF-hi just yet, so I was wondering how that VHF-hi yagi you just got in:
http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...ain/index.html 

is doing in preliminary testing. The gain numbers are right up there with or even slightly better than my VU-937SR.


----------



## toddr007

Hi - I posted back on 1-19 inquiring about my antenna choice. Thanks to those of you who responded. (Since its been awhile - I posted that I'm in the western suburbs of Minneapolis, with the twin towers that handle most TV broadcasts at 25 miles and 60°, and a fair amount of trees nearby). I installed a CM 4221 on my roof (mast mounted). I tried first just sticking it on the mast with my old VHF still in place - but I needed to remove the remains of the VHF in order to get the UHF to work - I suppose that isn't a big surprise - they were spaced about 1-2' apart. I also added about 4' of extension to get it up a little higher - although I'm not sure that step was necessary and I will test that out later (the extension is just a length of 1.25" conduit - not antenna boom). Right now I can pull in most of the digital signals except for channel 50. I don't really understand why. When I looked at the net gain curve (from hdtvprimer.com) for this antenna - the gain is still climbing until beyond channel 70. Could there be interference of some sort? As a reference, a couple of the other stations I get seem to be a little marginal (PBS on c34) - the SNR on my TV - SONY KDF 55WF655 - says 20 or a little more, with the signal strength at 70 to 75. I beleive the signal strength on 50 (nominally ABC 5.1) was less than 30, no lock. I haven't checked the diagnostics on all of the channels - this is what I remember from looking at the ones that I noticed as more problematic. Since some of these signals seem a little weak, this is what I was thinking of doing:


1- replacing the old coax with some RG6 with decent connectors. Right now there is a junction box / splitter that the cable has to go through at the base of the antenna (there was not enough length to go all the way to the 4221 with the original cable). This cable is at least 12-15 years old. It's the connectors I'm mostly concerned about.


2 - adding a preamp. I would probably spring for the CM7777 in the event I want to still pull in the VHF (with the addition of a new VHF sometime later).


I have played only a little with the aiming of the antenna - but it doesn't seem to be that directional, in fact I'm getting signals off a different antenna at 347°. I can still try and play with that aspect though. (I used a compass to aim it).


Are there any other suggestions out there? I guess an antenna upgrade is not totally out of the question - but it seems that I'm close so I'd like to try what I can on this one first. Do I need to fire up the chain saw? Some of the aforementioned trees are pretty close - with 20 feet or so.


Thanks,


Todd


----------



## rdwalt




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *...I'd pick the DB8 over the CM4228 because of the superior connections.
> *



Can you post details regarding how they are superior? I can't see them being $50 superior.


----------



## j-bo

questions/help please

Sorry the thread is soooooo long, I got to page 9 though!


These are probably basic so I'll get to it.


I had d* and ended that. Paying for HDTV was silly, as no local HDTV channels.


STB is a hughes e86 and am trying to use that as an OTA. No longer subscribing.


I've already bought my antenna, a CM3018. They (antennaweb) said to get a multi directional preamp md. I got the LD instead.


Using RG6 , 100' total run. I just used what my dish had that I took down and its split at the tv.


I have it on a 20' mast from the ground/eave mount, and it peaks over the rooftop about 2-3'. Should I increase the distance up another 5-6'? I have a worry about support if I go higher.


It did recommend a preamp, however, I haven't chosen one yet as I don't have a clue which one will suffice.


Problems:

Only get a few local analog channels.

No digital channels.


All the stations I would want to get are within 26 miles, analog and digital. Most are in the same location except for 2. They are approx. 4 degrees from the other. Will I need a rotator just to grab those?


Will the hughes work? Some of the stations say that they are channel 2.1, how do I get to a channel 2.1? When I do a "scan", all that comes through right now is the analog channels.


After reading posts, I see that my hookup is incorrect. I have the rg6 going into a splitter at the tv, one going into the STB and one straight into the TV. Looks as though I should just hook up straight into the STB and run the STB all the time? That way avoiding the splitter? Will cutting off 25' (all I can spare) of cable help or just a waste of time?


Our regular analog stations are a split of VHF and UHF. I can pick up the furthest VHF signal perfectly. The UHF closest is snowy and cuts out.



Will raising the antenna up another 5-6' help ?



Will just adding the preamp eliminate most of the signal problems? Which model? I see the radioshack has 2 models, but don't know the differences. I see alot on the posts of the CM7777 is that the one for myself? Will the preamp eliminate the need to raise the antenna higher?


Sorry it got longer than I thought. Thanks for listening and offering advice


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by toddr007_
> *Right now I can pull in most of the digital signals except for channel 50. I don't really understand why.*



KSTP-DT is a hard catch, even for people in the nearby area. There are a lot of theories why this is so, most of which have been discussed on www.hdtvtwincities.com in their forums, but nobody really knows for sure at this point.


Check KSTC (analog) channel 45 for ghosting - do you have any? KSTP-DT is very sensitive to ghosting, so you may need to switch to the much more directional CM4228. You're correct that the 4-bay isn't terribly directional.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by rdwalt_
> *Can you post details regarding how they are superior? I can't see them being $50 superior.*



Durability. Better rear screen design (less porous.) Better connections between the two antenna "halves." For most people, that extra difference won't matter, but for people on the edge, it's worth considering.


You can read details of the flaws in the CM design here:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html 


AntennasDirect's DB8 doesn't have those flaws.


----------



## toddr007




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *KSTP-DT is a hard catch, even for people in the nearby area. There are a lot of theories why this is so, most of which have been discussed on hdtvtwincities.com in their forums, but nobody really knows for sure at this point.
> 
> 
> Check KSTC (analog) channel 45 for ghosting - do you have any? KSTP-DT is very sensitive to ghosting, so you may need to switch to the much more directional CM4228. You're correct that the 4-bay isn't terribly directional.*



sregener -

Thanks for the information - I'll check KSTC 45 later today. As I recall - it wasn't very watchable - but then none of the analog ones are after looking at the digital signals. I usually just bypass the analog stations in favor of their digital counterparts. I'll also spend some time looking at the link you posted. I guess I'm not quite done yet. If I need to get a more directional antenna - is there a reason to perfer the 8 bay bow over one of the Yagis?


----------



## greenknight

Now that I have read this entire thread, I realize that I don't know much, even though I thought I did. This is a sad story.

Location and equipment: zip 33436 SqS hdp269 CM 9521a Zenith Sat 520

NBC, CBS, Fox @ 7.5 miles ABC @ 43 miles

First installed this about a year ago and got the stations at 7.5 no problem.

Could not get ABC at all. Didn"t much care until LOST came along. Realized this past weekend that all my rg6 connections were wrong and that I never got any signal from the SqS. So I redid every single connection and to my dismay the signal streghth for NBC and Fox fell from around 90% to

45-50% and CBS is nowhere to be found. (Still no ABC). Thinking the preamp was in overload mode, I unplugged it (but did not take it out of the system) and NBC and Fox went right back up to the 90% range but still

no CBS. Did a hard reboot of the 520 with no success. Still no ABC. If I remove the HDP 269 from the system will it make a difference? Not sure

signal can pass thru with no power. Why no CBS? Haven't a clue as what to do next. Help!

Thanks in advance


----------



## rdwalt




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *Durability. Better rear screen design (less porous.) Better connections between the two antenna "halves." For most people, that extra difference won't matter, but for people on the edge, it's worth considering.
> 
> 
> You can read details of the flaws in the CM design here:
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html
> 
> 
> AntennasDirect's DB8 doesn't have those flaws.*



Thanks for the link. Good stuff.


----------



## freefiber

My local HD stations are all over the map, from about 90 degrees to 240 degrees. After only a few antenna movements (

Is this normal? I hope not.


What could be the cause of it?


I don't know the rotor model (I think it's a Channel Master), supporting an 8-bay bowtie antennal (also Channel Master, I think).


Thanks,


Allen


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by imott_
> *Thank you for responding.
> 
> 
> The tubing wall thickness is .058". This would make the ID 1.884".
> 
> 
> Thx
> 
> i*



Use a piece of 1¼ galvanized pipe(1-5/8"OD) inside the thinwall.Bolt it together,then bolt the mast for the 4221 inside of that.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by toddr007_
> *If I need to get a more directional antenna - is there a reason to perfer the 8 bay bow over one of the Yagis?*



If you hang around here long enough, you'll read a lot about stacking of identical antennas to fix multipath problems. The 8-bay is like a preconfigured vertical and horizontal stack. In theory, it should be very directional. In practice, it is very directional, sometimes being sensitive down to a single degree.


The yagis are great for higher channels (like channel 50) but they do worse below channel 35 or so because of their hybrid corner-reflector design. IOW, above channel 40, the yagi is the primary design that controls reception. Below channel 30, the corner reflector is doing most of the work. And corner reflectors aren't very directional at all.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by freefiber_
> *After only a few antenna movements (*



Two possibilities here. One good, one not so good.


First, it is possible that you're approaching stations from different directions. For instance, if you always approach a channel at 250 from the south, your motor should work to compensate for it. But if one time you approach from the south, and the next time from the north, then the motor is geared such that you'll end up in a different direction.


You can reset your rotor by turning it to 360 and then to 0. All your old settings should then be valid.


However, the second posibility is not so good. You may be overloading your rotor. Most commercial rotors (cost


----------



## imott




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by MAX HD_
> *Use a piece of 1¼ galvanized pipe(1-5/8"OD) inside the thinwall.Bolt it together,then bolt the mast for the 4221 inside of that.*



Ah yes...The old take-advantage-of-the-wall-thickness trick!


Thanks!


i


----------



## nickww

For OTA is there some "magic sauce" that the antenna needs to have? Will my 10 year old RS large antenna work? Actually, its SEEMS to. from a poor location it pulls in one (only) of the OTA HD frequencies, but the picture constantly breaks up. I am about to move it to a better location, but am wondering if a new antenna would be worth the $?


----------



## blackngold19

There is no magic sauce so to speak. HDTV signals are brodcast in the same fashion as before, UHF/or VHF. The antenna is the same. Depending on your distance and location, i.e. terrrain factors, there is a possiblity you could do better with a newer antenna. For starters, go to www.antennaweb.org to see what is available to you for local stations. Also, this site will tell you how far you are located from the signals in miles. Once that is determined, you can select the best antenna for your purpose. Repost the information from antennaweb and I'll try to help you more.


Blackie


----------



## nickww

Thanks VERY much. I have gotten fuzzy and incorrect answers from various salespeople.


I have gone to antennaweb and it was extremely helpful. (From that I seem to need a "medium directional"). I am 31 miles south of San Francisco, on a hillside. Between me and the large tower from which most local stations broadcast are a few nearby oak trees and about a mile or so away is a ridge line just above the straightline from here to there.


I will try the old antenna before investing in a new one. There is now about a 75 foot run to the receiver and I am going to add about 30 feet to that, so I will buy an amplifier (or preamp?) which can be installed about 20 feel from the antenna in a location protected from the weather. Any recommendations? Radio shack?


Nick


----------



## rldud

I finally found the problem! After just holding the Winegard 9032 about 10 feet above the peak of my house and seeing a good picture from channel 57 and then mounting the antenna to a mast and having a very poor signal, I was about to give up. Thought it might be the weather since it has been cloudy and raining since the test, or a difference in the height, it is now about 4 feet higher. Next, changed coax but that didn't improve the signal. Tried changing the location of the antenna because it is about 15 feet from the metal roof of my carport and the Fox tower is directly across from it, but this didn't help either. I was just going to put the antenna back up as I had originally installed it and live with it, but decided to change out the balun (even though it was new when I first tried the antenna). I was connecting the guy wires back up when my wife came out and said that the picture was GREAT! I was just about to wear out the shingles, but I guess that's how it goes sometimes. Always check the hardware! Thanks again for all the input.


----------



## toddr007




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *If you hang around here long enough, you'll read a lot about stacking of identical antennas to fix multipath problems. The 8-bay is like a preconfigured vertical and horizontal stack. In theory, it should be very directional. In practice, it is very directional, sometimes being sensitive down to a single degree.
> 
> 
> The yagis are great for higher channels (like channel 50) but they do worse below channel 35 or so because of their hybrid corner-reflector design. IOW, above channel 40, the yagi is the primary design that controls reception. Below channel 30, the corner reflector is doing most of the work. And corner reflectors aren't very directional at all.*



sregener - thanks for the info. I think I get it. The gain isn't that much greater on the 4228 over the 4221- but it will be more directional, right? If I read the gain chart correctly for channel 50, the net gain is 15.6 db versus 14.2 (to my eyes).

I sat down tonight and looked at the diagnostic screen on my TV tuner and wrote down all of signal strengths and SNR for each of the digital channels. I did as you suggested and looked at channel 45 analog - it was a just a little bit snowy - but not really bad. It was certainly watchable and I saw no ghosting. The digital channel 50 (KSTP) 5.1 - reads 32 /100 on the signal strength and 0 - 10 dB on the SNR, 5.2 was 35/100 and 0 - 10dB. (My TV even found some strong sigals with no content on them - maybe KSTP can borrow those frequencies).


I suppose if I need to buy another antenna, I could go with the 8-bay or just add the yagi and do all that fancy filtering. I guess this is where I could also throw in the towel and get cable - but I'd rather not. At least FOX will be working good enough for the Superbowl.


So is the real question I need to answer the one concerning whether I'm dealing with a multi-path problem versus a weak signal? And how do I determine that?


Thanks for your patience...


Todd


----------



## mgtr

nickww-

Skip the RS amp, get the Channelmaster 7777, and mount it on the antenna mast. Make sure you are using RG-6 cable. For info, the CM will drive up to 275 feet of RG-6. Also, the shorter the cable run, the better.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by nickww_
> *For OTA is there some "magic sauce" that the antenna needs to have? Will my 10 year old RS large antenna work? Actually, its SEEMS to. from a poor location it pulls in one (only) of the OTA HD frequencies, but the picture constantly breaks up. I am about to move it to a better location, but am wondering if a new antenna would be worth the $?*



Life of an average antenna is about 10 years. Radio Shack isn't known for their durability, so it might be less than that. Usually, it's not a case that the antenna stops working, but the performance declines to a point where it's no longer as good as the next model down, and then the next model down, and so on... Even a coat hanger gets some signal.


There's nothing magic about OTA HD, because it's broadcast on the same frequencies as analog television. (In fact, it will end up being broadcast on fewer channels than analog, the real reason why the government is pushing the digital transition.) Right now, that's channels 2-67. After the analog shutoff, it will be 2-51.


There's no reason to replace an antenna that works. So if you try it at your new location and everything is good, great! If not, however, I'd recommend a replacement antenna.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by toddr007_
> *So is the real question I need to answer the one concerning whether I'm dealing with a multi-path problem versus a weak signal? And how do I determine that?
> *



You just did. Weak signals show up on analog as snow. Multipath shows up as ghosting. (Some people get both.) If you're getting snow but not ghosting, a weak signal is your problem, not multipath.


The solution for a weak signal is either a larger antenna (like the 4228) or a preamplifier. I'd go with the preamp, personally. Get one from Channel Master or Winegard that has less than 20db of gain. The top gain models might overload. There's no guarantee that this will work, so keep your receipts.


----------



## offandon

A couple of quick questions ... I have been reading many pages but still have the need for some advice if anyone has a minute to answer.


1) Is the Terk antenna that looks like the Silver Sensor the same or at least perform very similarly?


2) Does Radio Shack have a UHF indoor antenna that will perform on that level?


Thanks.


----------



## greywolf

1. No. It's no substitute fo a real SvS and more $ to boot. No Terk antenna is a good buy.


2. The 15-1880 gets good reviews and does VHF too, but there is no small indoor antenna to equal the SvS in UHF performance except maybe the hard to find R/S item known as the double bow tie with balun modification. I don't have a model number or mod details so maybe a fan will follow up.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Rack_
> *MAX HD!
> 
> We're starting to see channel election moves, and it seems to me that stations are moving off VHF-lo (at least here in Chicago). But I don't think they'll move off VHF-hi just yet, so I was wondering how that VHF-hi yagi you just got in:
> http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...ain/index.html
> 
> is doing in preliminary testing. The gain numbers are right up there with or even slightly better than my VU-937SR.*



I haven't heard of any station that's planning on keeping their Low Band DT allocation.I believe that most markets will have stations that migrate to High Band for reduced operating costs,and now with digital the adjacent channel problem is eliminated.High Band has always been the "crown jewel" in TV broadcasting,and will be even more so in the future.



I've been busy testing the new ants,but final conclusions will take some time.Testing antennas can be very aggravating as they can't be placed in the same exact spot at the same time.


Preliminary results do show an increase in performance on 10,11,12,13,but more time is needed to make a final determination.What I really need is some test equipment other than my eyeballs


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by MAX HD_
> *I haven't heard of any station that's planning on keeping their Low Band DT allocation.I believe that most markets will have stations that migrate to High Band for reduced operating costs,and now with digital the adjacent channel problem is eliminated.High Band has always been the "crown jewel" in TV broadcasting,and will be even more so in the future.
> 
> 
> *



WDKY FOX digital 4 in Lexington, KY. They *just* completed a brand new tower for both their digital and analog and they're broadcasting at 26.5 kw which I think makes them the second strongest low band digital in the nation (I think there's a channel 2 in Las Vegas at 27 kw). You might have a shot at them intermittently from where you are. Anyway, I'd be very surprised it they don't stay put. They are owned by Sinclair and most likely won't be interested in investing in making a change at least for the time being.


----------



## Xesdeeni

Are any of the stations actually publishing their decisions at this point? I'd love to know how many are stying put on UHF, and how many are moving back to VHF.


Xesdeeni


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by MAX HD_
> *I believe that most markets will have stations that migrate to High Band for reduced operating costs,and now with digital the adjacent channel problem is eliminated.High Band has always been the "crown jewel" in TV broadcasting,and will be even more so in the future.
> *



Not to argue with an expert, but the following points crop into my head right off the bat.


1) Hi-band VHF will have higher operating costs than lo-band VHF, right? In the analog world, lo-band maxes out at 50kw, while hi-band is 316kw for similar (not identical) coverage. VHF, however, does have much lower operating costs than UHF.


2) Aren't most areas saturated with coverage of hi-band VHF channels already, thus the markets are already full of channels? If you look at a place like Philadelphia, they've got channel 11 stations both north (New York) and south (Baltimore) of them. Even in as small a market as I'm in (Rochester/Austin/Albert Lea/Mason City) there are no available channels from 2-13 with more than a 20 mile buffer. When I had a VHF antenna, I got signals on every VHF channel except 7, and that's because I'm right in between two channel 7s that are just over 100 miles out. A very low powered station might squeeze in there, like a translator, but nothing that could come close to covering this market. It seems to me that stations that had an analog hi-band VHF channel, and those who got hi-band VHF digital stations, are the only ones who are going to win in the hi-band VHF lottery. Even some of them might lose out because of restricted power requirements to prevent overlapping other areas. (For instance, WHTM in Harrisburg, PA is on digital channel 12, but they're at low power. WHYY in Wilmington, DE will trump them from increasing their power, which means they must select a very reduced coverage area or go back to their UHF channel.)


I'm not saying people won't fight for those hi-VHF channels. I just don't see many markets "filling up" with new stations in the gaps because there *are* no gaps in most areas. Maybe somebody in the middle of North Dakota will suddenly win the frequency lottery, but the rest of the country is "full up."


----------



## chure

OTA reception issues:

Just moved to 53005 a suburb of Milwaukee, WI which is no more than 10 miles west of the towers for the local stations. They span from 85* to 98*. I bought a 4228 and ran 100ft of R6 from the attic of a two story house to the stb on the 1st floor. The full 100ft won't be necessary when I find the location i'll need for the 4228, but I want to wait before shortening.


Two days ago I was not able to bring in a signal for most of the channels, and only hit-or-miss on 2 or 3 of them. Yesterday, we had clear skys, I was able to bring all the channels some at 100%.


I have yet to dial in the ideal location for the 4228 in the attic, but with that and then shortening the cable accordingly give me more consistant reception?


I guess i know the answer... try it and see, but I was looking for tips/advice.


thanks


----------



## Rack




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Xesdeeni_
> *Are any of the stations actually publishing their decisions at this point? I'd love to know how many are stying put on UHF, and how many are moving back to VHF.
> 
> 
> Xesdeeni*



Yep, they have to file with the FCC pretty soon (I think by the 10th, but there might be an extension). In Chicagoland, WYCC-TV 20/WYCC-DT 21 elected to stay on 21. WBBM-TV 2/WBBM-DT 3 has decided to exercise the option to not pick between 2 VHF-lo assignments and to see what opens up in the 2nd round, since there is a nice channel 20 assignment open already.







Many other good stations will open up in the area as well.


----------



## atye

Can someone try to explain the physics behind these issues I'm having with reception? Here's the list of stuff again:


ChannelMaster 3678 w/7777 preamp

Voom HD receiver

RG-6 Cable straight from preamp into box. (works now!)


So I get Ch 4.1 (32) out of Minneapolis (about 60 miles) pretty consistently and 75% of the time get 11.1 (35).


The one I really want is FOX 9.1 (26) but the signal pattern goes like this. 81% for a few seconds, then 0% for a few seconds, then repeat. One night (the night before the championship games) I got a VERY good signal from FOX after I did some tweaking with cable length and such, but since have had the aforementioned situation.

If someone could explain the most likely reason for the on/off signal I might have a better idea of how to tackle the problem, but if the concensus is that it's hopeless I'll just wait for FOX out of Eau Claire to go HD. (should be sometime in the next 15 years....







)


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by atye_
> *Can someone try to explain the physics behind these issues I'm having with reception? Here's the list of stuff again:
> 
> 
> ChannelMaster 3678 w/7777 preamp
> 
> Voom HD receiver
> 
> RG-6 Cable straight from preamp into box. (works now!)
> 
> 
> So I get Ch 4.1 (32) out of Minneapolis (about 60 miles) pretty consistently and 75% of the time get 11.1 (35).
> 
> 
> The one I really want is FOX 9.1 (26) but the signal pattern goes like this. 81% for a few seconds, then 0% for a few seconds, then repeat. One night (the night before the championship games) I got a VERY good signal from FOX after I did some tweaking with cable length and such, but since have had the aforementioned situation.
> 
> If someone could explain the most likely reason for the on/off signal I might have a better idea of how to tackle the problem, but if the concensus is that it's hopeless I'll just wait for FOX out of Eau Claire to go HD. (should be sometime in the next 15 years....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )*



You're right on the edge of their coverage area. See http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DT509417.html 


Your best chance with a single antenna would be either a 4228 or DB8 assuming you don't use a rotor(these antennas are stressful on a rotor). If you use a rotor, the XG91 would improve things but probably not as much at ch. 26. At channel 26, the 4228 has about 3dbd more gain than the 3678. The DB8 may do even a little better. These are both UHF antennas and so you'll give up VHF performance but if you need VHF you could add a VHF antenna separately.


It's always possible that other factors (primarily co-channel interference) may be at work here. Co-channel interference is a bigger problem than some would like to admit right now because of all the analog/digitals going at once. In any case, your best shot will be a higher performance antenna but it's no guarantee unfortunately right now even though you're within the coverage area.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by atye_
> *ChannelMaster 3678 w/7777 preamp
> 
> Voom HD receiver
> 
> RG-6 Cable straight from preamp into box. (works now!)
> 
> 
> So I get Ch 4.1 (32) out of Minneapolis (about 60 miles) pretty consistently and 75% of the time get 11.1 (35).
> 
> 
> The one I really want is FOX 9.1 (26) but the signal pattern goes like this. 81% for a few seconds, then 0% for a few seconds, then repeat.
> 
> 
> ...If someone could explain the most likely reason for the on/off signal I might have a better idea of how to tackle the problem, but if the concensus is that it's hopeless I'll just wait for FOX out of Eau Claire to go HD. (should be sometime in the next 15 years....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )*



I've already told you that a UHF-only antenna should be better. That hasn't changed.


I'm a little further from the Minneapolis/St.Paul stations than you. (I'm at 75+ miles.) WCCO (32) is my rock, my shelter in stormy weather, the one station that almost always comes in perfectly, even when every other station is going haywire. I've had some bad nights with them, and the middle of the day in summer is also rough, but otherwise WCCO-DT locks for me all the time.


KARE (35) is a little less common for me than some others, but that's primarily because I have a digital station within 20 miles of me on channel 36. That strong signal has to have some negative impact on me.


KMSP (26), your target station, isn't my most reliable, not by a long shot. They seem to come and go. I've had days where the picture was nearly breakup free, and then other days where the picture is all but unwatchable. This seems to match what you say you're getting now.


Things you can do to improve reception:

- move the antenna higher (mine is on a 54' tower)

- get a better UHF antenna (DB8, 91XG are both excellent choices)

- move to a new address


If you look at analog stations like 23 and 29, you'll probably see a lot of snow in the picture. This is a symptom of weak signals, and any of the above solutions could help you with it, but nothing is going to "fix" it so that you get the perfection you want. I've tried everything short of moving and haven't gotten the perfection I was after. Once you're over the radio horizon, you're a prisoner to the weather, the leaves, the troposphere, and a lot of other things that are hard to predict and even harder to deal with when things go poorly. You just have to take the good days when they come, and hope for the best.


You should be able to get the next two years Super Bowls in high def. WQOW-DT is on the air, and their signal should reach you, and they're HD capable today. WKBT-DT is supposed to go full-power this spring, and they're also HD capable today. That gets you ABC next year and CBS the year after that. What it doesn't get you is NFC football in the here and now.


WEUX will go HD some day. Fox is putting a lot of pressure on affiliates, and they're providing a lot of the equipment to get things done, so I would expect them to be good to go in HD by 2008.


----------



## tkoppes

I live in Bellevue, IA...approx 63mi from Orion towers. THe KLJB engineer said I should be able to pick up the HD signals but so far no luck. Tried a channelmaster 4221 and a Winegard 8072 with appropriate pre-amps. Tested analog signal from Winegard into a seperate TV. Got a reasonable signal. I have an Hughes HD10-250 reciever. Was able to get a peak of 16 on the OTA tuner off of the 4221 (and a spike peak of 100 when I moved it), but I'm not sure what caused the spike. No steady signal bar at all. Couldn't get any digital signal off of the Winegard. Any suggestions or ideas??? Any one else having success in this area?


----------



## phatboykim

Hi,

has anyone used this antenna?

http://www.antennasdirect.com/IndoorAntennas.htm 


It's the PF7 picture antenna - UHF.


My wife is not happy with the silver sensor (can you believe it? she thinks THAT is an eye sore!!) so I'm just exploring options.


To be honest, it doesn't look like it'll be any good, but hey, neither does the silver sensor!



Thanks!


----------



## itsmyforte

i am about to put up a second antenna (cm4221). my question is how far from each antenna should i put my combiner (cm#0549)? do i run as short of coax from each as possible or should i combine them before after i run the coax down each pole to the side of the house?

does each lead need to be the same length or as close to it as possible?


thanks,


J


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by tkoppes_
> *I live in Bellevue, IA...approx 63mi from Orion towers. THe KLJB engineer said I should be able to pick up the HD signals but so far no luck. Tried a channelmaster 4221 and a Winegard 8072 with appropriate pre-amps. Tested analog signal from Winegard into a seperate TV. Got a reasonable signal. I have an Hughes HD10-250 reciever. Was able to get a peak of 16 on the OTA tuner off of the 4221 (and a spike peak of 100 when I moved it), but I'm not sure what caused the spike. No steady signal bar at all. Couldn't get any digital signal off of the Winegard. Any suggestions or ideas??? Any one else having success in this area?*



At 63 miles, you need the big guns. All the Davenport digitals are UHF and mostly high UHF at that which would make you a perfect candidate for the xg91. A rotor would help for precise aiming and also to be able to point to other markets. The CM 7777 preamp would be on the short list of appropriate preamps. I'm not surprised you haven't had much success with medium range antennas.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by itsmyforte_
> *i am about to put up a second antenna (cm4221). my question is how far from each antenna should i put my combiner (cm#0549)? do i run as short of coax from each as possible or should i combine them before after i run the coax down each pole to the side of the house?
> 
> does each lead need to be the same length or as close to it as possible?
> 
> 
> thanks,
> 
> 
> J*



The CM 0549 is a VHF/UHF diplexer. Assuming you're not preamping the signals anyway, it doesn't really matter where you diplex them. You'll use less cable overall if you diplex them up at the mast. The relative lengths don't matter as you are combining differing signals/frequencies. The "exact length" thing only comes into play when you are stacking identical antennas.


----------



## itsmyforte




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *The CM 0549 is a VHF/UHF diplexer. Assuming you're not preamping the signals anyway, it doesn't really matter where you diplex them. You'll use less cable overall if you diplex them up at the mast. The relative lengths don't matter as you are combining differing signals/frequencies. The "exact length" thing only comes into play when you are stacking identical antennas.*



thanks, i will see how it goes tomorrow


----------



## ElVee




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ElVee_
> *I'm going to re-think the whole thing.
> 
> 
> I got started thinking about all this because the original Wingard GS-1100 I received from DirecTv doesn't pick up all of my locals (as it's currently pointed). The bulk of my locals are at either 70 degrees and 116 degrees. I have my antenna pointed at about 90 degrees. At this position, I do not pick up my local CBS (2) and ABC (7) stations. I can get my NBC (4), FOX (on 38-4 instead of 5), UPN (on 38-3 instead of 9) and WB (11). If I move the antenna slightly towards 70 degrees, I can get the local CBS and if I move it slightly towards 116 degrees, I can get the local ABC. This is when I decided to try a rotator. Then I thought, as long as I'm getting a rotator, let me try to pull in some stations from further away with a better antenna.
> 
> 
> To make a long story short, I'm going to mount the rotator with the original Wingard and see how that works first. If that works well, then great. I'll return the CM2671. If not, then I'll have to make a decision to either try the CM3671 or return it for some thing else.*



Just an update. I installed the rotator with the original Winegard GS-1100. I'm going to send back the CM3671. So far, this combo is working well. I may consider some of the smaller UHF antenna's I've seen mentioned here.


Thanks to all for the great advice.


----------



## COLAVSFANINNWIA

Ok, I got a good one here that *hopefully* someone can help. I got an HDTV (Samsung 30 in WS, built in ATSC) in a basement, with a 40 db gain RCA indoor antenna, which most of the time sits right on the top of the tv. I get my ABC, CBS, and PBS HD feeds just fine. If I move the antenna around the room, I get the local NBC & WB DT stations (not in HD yet) fine also. Now w/ the SuperBowl in 2 days, the problem lies w/ the local FOX-HD station. All my others are in UHF, FOX-DT is on vhf. I also live 25 miles from the LP-tower. According to the FCC webiste, I am at least 5 miles within the fringe of the signal. I tried replacing the whips w/ FM antenna wire (which I found to be better than normal rabbit ears for VHF) to get amplification behind the wire. But I could not get the whips off w/o breaking the thing apart. I have come to the conclusion that I will be SOL on getting the game in HD. I cannot put up any antenna outside(although I did a test run of mine outside about one story high, but that didnt work), nor have I found any indoor/outdoor antenna small enough and as powerful as the one I have now. I have also put it as high as I could possibly put it. Any tips on possibly improving reception? Any other comments/concernes will be taken into consideration also.~ColAvsFan


----------



## mgtr

Why not use an outdoor antenna? According to the FCC, anybody, even renters, can put up an outdoor antenna (with some size restrictions) as long as it is attached to the structure they own or rent, regardless of association or community rules. Search this forum and you will certainly turn up the link, or go to the FCC website.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by COLAVSFANINNWIA_
> *All my others are in UHF, FOX-DT is on vhf. I also live 25 miles from the LP-tower. According to the FCC webiste, I am at least 5 miles within the fringe of the signal.*



Search back a few pages in this thread where people talk about making their own VHF dipoles using 300-Ohm wire. That should be good enough, and small enough, for you to temporarily mount it outside during the Super Bowl.


Amplification doesn't help very much for VHF, and 40db is overload for any antenna out there. I'm amazed it works for you at all.


----------



## krash01us

I live in Hilton, NY (about 15 miles northwest of Rochesterand the towers) and I am getting ready to install an OTA antenna to pick up the locals in HD. When I enter my address at antennaweb.org it pulls up all the analog stations and 3 digital stations 21-1(WXXI), 31-1(FOX), and 51(PAX) within the purple and violet zones. If I put in my friends address about a 1/4 mile away it brings up 8-1(CBS), 10-1(ABC), 13-1(NBC).


Does this mean I won't be able to pick up 8,10,13 in digital or could it just be a glitch at antenna web? I can pick up an analog signal from these systems. Any help would be appreciated.


I apologize if this was discussed somewhere before. I did some scanning and couldn't find anything


Krash


----------



## phatboykim

No comments on the PF-7?


My other alternative is to put the Silver Sensor in the adjacent bedroom, run 30 feet or so of cable, drill 2 small holes in the drywall and pull it through behind the system to hook up to the STB.


Does 30 feet of cable require a pre-amp (or signal booster or sorts) or should the signal still be solid?


If so, what brand is recommended? I hear the Ratshack signal boosters are garbage.


Thanks!!




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by phatboykim_
> *Hi,
> 
> has anyone used this antenna?
> 
> http://www.antennasdirect.com/IndoorAntennas.htm
> 
> 
> It's the PF7 picture antenna - UHF.
> 
> 
> My wife is not happy with the silver sensor (can you believe it? she thinks THAT is an eye sore!!) so I'm just exploring options.
> 
> 
> To be honest, it doesn't look like it'll be any good, but hey, neither does the silver sensor!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!*


----------



## Xesdeeni




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Rack_
> *Yep, they have to file with the FCC pretty soon (I think by the 10th, but there might be an extension).*



Thanks for the info. Is there a link to a site (presumably the FCC's) that has the filings? I've searched the FCC, but I can't seem to find the right terms.


Xesdeeni


----------



## mainemojo

I'm a Time Warner customer just south of Portland, Maine, where the CBS affiliate is a Sinclair station, so CBS HD via cable isn't a possibility. According to antennaweb, I'm 24.2 miles from the CBS tower. We're on the coast, and there are no mountains in the area, although there are some tall trees in the path. Can anyone tell me if the Silver Sensor should be able to deliver this station's signal?


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> Does this mean I won't be able to pick up 8,10,13 in digital or could it just be a glitch at antenna web? I can pick up an analog signal from these systems. Any help would be appreciated.



krash, you should go to the below website for detailed info on Rochester and, pending Rochesterites chiming in here, you may have some trouble. 8-1 apparently doesn't do HD and operates at less than a pitiable 2 kW of power presently. 10-1 does HD but only has 38 kW of power. 13-1 does HD and has 8.7 kW of power. All 3 are slated to ultimately get more power, but the FCC website indicates all 3 have an antenna at ground level. Am not sure what this means so you need to carefully check out the below site for more definitive info.
http://www.rochesterhdtv.com/viewtop...er=asc&start=0


----------



## krash01us

Bill - thanks for the info, I started to work with some of the Rochester people on your link today. I actually grabbed a Terk HDTVa indoor today at RS to do some prelim runs before I went full bore. To my suprise I was able to get 10-1, 13-1, 31-1 without a glitch and 8-1 with some moving. I'll probably leave this way at least for the SB and start doing some more research on an outdoor one.


----------



## Delerium

cpcat,


Thanks for your response. I have decided on the 91xg or the DB8. I have just one last question before I put in my order to antennasdirect...


As most of my channels are below 40, does the DB8 seem to be the best option or would the 91xg with a rotor still be best? If you, or anyone else who would like to put their 2 cents in, lived in my area (83201), what would you buy. Basically, I am asking all you experts out there to make my final decision for me.


Thanks to all of you who have helped me with my questions.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Delerium_
> *cpcat,
> 
> 
> Thanks for your response. I have decided on the 91xg or the DB8. I have just one last question before I put in my order to antennasdirect...
> 
> 
> As most of my channels are below 40, does the DB8 seem to be the best option or would the 91xg with a rotor still be best? If you, or anyone else who would like to put their 2 cents in, lived in my area (83201), what would you buy. Basically, I am asking all you experts out there to make my final decision for me.
> 
> 
> Thanks to all of you who have helped me with my questions.*



Go to http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp and punch in your Lat/Long coordinates in decimal form to see the exact bearings/distances to your digitals. A good place to find you lat/long is http://terraserver.microsoft.com/ just put in your address and then zoom in on your house.


I think you'll find you need a rotor (stations more than say 20 degrees apart). Assuming that's the case, I'd go with the XG91. You give up maybe a little on the lower channels but there's always a compromise. You could always stack two if you need to but I bet you won't.


----------



## shajoe44

I need an antenna with RED-UHF coverage. Does anyone have a recomendation for this type. I live 15.7 miles from transmitter site and the station broadcasts at 15.6 kw erp.


Thanks


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by shajoe44_
> *I need an antenna with RED-UHF coverage. Does anyone have a recomendation for this type. I live 15.7 miles from transmitter site and the station broadcasts at 15.6 kw erp.
> 
> 
> Thanks*



If you have an absolute clear shot at the tower then a Channel Master 4221 is a popular choice. If you have trees to go through you may need a little more gain - CM 4248 or CM 4228. If you can't go with any of those outdoors you can try an attic mount. As a last resort, use an indoor unit like Zenith Silver Sensor.


----------



## tkoppes




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *At 63 miles, you need the big guns. All the Davenport digitals are UHF and mostly high UHF at that which would make you a perfect candidate for the xg91. A rotor would help for precise aiming and also to be able to point to other markets. The CM 7777 preamp would be on the short list of appropriate preamps. I'm not surprised you haven't had much success with medium range antennas.*



Thanks,

WHo makes the xg91? Actually, I was able to pull in KLJB at 50% last night with the CM 4221 and CM 7775 pre amp. I am hoping that a jump to the 4228 and getting it in the air another 20' will make a big difference. The signal is back down to 30 or so today in foggy drizzle. Doubt I will be able to pull in Superbowl. BTW, what is advantage of 7777 over 7775?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by tkoppes_
> *Thanks,
> 
> WHo makes the xg91? Actually, I was able to pull in KLJB at 50% last night with the CM 4221 and CM 7775 pre amp. I am hoping that a jump to the 4228 and getting it in the air another 20' will make a big difference. The signal is back down to 30 or so today in foggy drizzle. Doubt I will be able to pull in Superbowl. BTW, what is advantage of 7777 over 7775?*


 http://www.antennasdirect.com/LongRangeAntennas.htm 


In your case, no difference for the 7777 for now but the 7777 has vhf capability which could impact you in the future (some of the digitals may revert to vhf down the line).


----------



## COLAVSFANINNWIA




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mgtr_
> *Why not use an outdoor antenna?*



So I borrowed an outdoor antenna (no amp) and put it up 2 stories tall. Not even a "scent" of a FOX-DT feed. Had better luck w/ rabbit ears on ground level (no amp) inside, but still could not get it in strong enough to lock in the DT signal. So no SuperBowl in HD for me. I will have to wait for my fox station to go to full power whenever that is.










They replied in an email about 2 weeks prior that they "Don't know when or if they will be at full power on the DTV OTA feed." How crazy is that? I hope the boys at FOX national will push them a little harder.~ColAvsFan


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by COLAVSFANINNWIA_
> *So I borrowed an outdoor antenna (no amp) and put it up 2 stories tall. Not even a "scent" of a FOX-DT feed. Had better luck w/ rabbit ears on ground level (no amp) inside, but still could not get it in strong enough to lock in the DT signal. So no SuperBowl in HD for me. I will have to wait for my fox station to go to full power whenever that is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They replied in an email about 2 weeks prior that they "Don't know when or if they will be at full power on the DTV OTA feed." How crazy is that? I hope the boys at FOX national will push them a little harder.~ColAvsFan*



From what market are your stations?


----------



## j-bo

Help please.


My antenna is cm3018.

Here is my list of stations.


red - uhf WVLA 33 NBC BATON ROUGE LA 248° 34.2 33

red - uhf WGMB 44 FOX BATON ROUGE LA 248° 34.2 44

* red - uhf WGMB-DT 45.1 FOX BATON ROUGE LA 248° 34.2 45

red - uhf WLPB 27 PBS BATON ROUGE LA 251° 29.1 27

* red - vhf WBRZ-DT 2.1 ABC BATON ROUGE LA 241° 30.5 13

blue - vhf WAFB 9 CBS BATON ROUGE LA 250° 29.7 9

blue - uhf WLFT-CA 30 IND BATON ROUGE LA 246° 20.6 30

blue - vhf WBRZ 2 ABC BATON ROUGE LA 241° 30.5 2

* blue - uhf WLPB-DT 27.1 PBS BATON ROUGE LA 251° 29.1 25

*violet - uhf WAFB-DT 9.1 CBS BATON ROUGE LA 260° 26.6 46


My setup so far.


I'm using a hughes e86 stb.


I have the antenna pretty clear, with some far off trees in its path(half mile or so).


I can get regular vhf channels through the tv, but NOT the stb(call crazy looking). I can pick up the abc hd through the stb. No others as of yet.


My signal was weak on the analog UHF channels thruogh the tv and same crazy look through the stb.


I bought a radioshack preamp/amp over the weekend "just to see".

Made my UHF channels super through the tv, but still the same through the stb.


Why can't the STB make the analog channels perfect ? They are perfect through the tv.


I should be able to pickup all the other hdtv stations shouldn't I? They look to be about the same distance as the abc hd stations.


Is the radioshack preamp/amp just not good? and maybe I should try the channelmaster 7777?


Did I choose the wrong antenna to begin with? Would going to a cm3020 be a better choice?


I'm still stumbled why I can get great reception through the tv set on the vhf channels, and they are scrambled looking through the STB. Reasons?


Please offer some advice. Thanks!


----------



## philipgomez

Did you try rescanning the channels once hooked up to the STB?


----------



## dswallow

The Radio Shack preamps introduce a lot of noise into the signal; they are definitely not very good to use for digital reception.


I do think you should be able to get the analog stations through your receiver if you can pick them up through your TV; you're using exactly the same antenna coax, right? Just moving it between the receiver and the TV?


The 3018 isn't bad; and probably good enough for your needs; I'd look at a new preamp and a rotator like the CM9521A if you don't have a rotator now. It can be indispensable in fine tuning the aiming direction.


----------



## j-bo

Thanks.

Yes, I tried rescanning several times. I'm just dumbfounded on why the stb has the analogs scrambled.


I have the wire through a splitter right now. But I've tried it straight to the STB, straight through to the stb without the preamp/amp with no luck for the analog stations.


I don't have all "gold" connectors either if that makes a difference.


No, no rotator yet. I figured that I'd try it without at 1st, and just manually turn it to get the 260degree station.


Is my thnking not correct in that a few degrees (3 or so) shouldn't make too much of difference for the other stations?


I'll return the radioshack thingie and order the cm7777.


Maybe the hughes just isn't a very good OTA receiver?


----------



## greywolf




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by j-bo_
> *Maybe the hughes just isn't a very good OTA receiver?*



It may be toasted. They are famous for dying from insufficient cooling capability if an auxiliary fan is not added.


----------



## Pokelahoma

After trying 3 other antennas with different combinations of amps, filters and home run cables I now have all the OTA stations in the Tulsa area thanks to the CM 4228. This antenna is a miracle antenna as far as I am concerned. After wiring the 2 halves of the reflective screen together (as I saw recommended somewhere on the web) I have even been able to get the local ABC VHF CH 10 with no dropouts. I sent back my amps and filters. My thanks to those (cpcat) who recommended the 4228 on this forum.


----------



## by1234

Hi gurus of this forum,


I live in the SF Bay area and I am trying to get ota HDTV. Antennaweb.org tells me that I can only get 1 digital channel when I enter in my address. I have tried getting signal with a Terk antenna that I got from BB for $100 but I can't get a single channel. Is there still hope for me to get HD? Should I try another antenna? Any suggestion is greatly appreciated. Thanks.


Newbie


----------



## imott




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by by1234_
> *Hi gurus of this forum,
> 
> 
> I live in the SF Bay area and I am trying to get ota HDTV. Antennaweb.org tells me that I can only get 1 digital channel when I enter in my address. I have tried getting signal with a Terk antenna that I got from BB for $100 but I can't get a single channel. Is there still hope for me to get HD? Should I try another antenna? Any suggestion is greatly appreciated. Thanks.
> 
> 
> Newbie*



Where in the SF Bay Area...It is a BIG place! Close cross-streets help.


Terk=Crap (most of the time).


----------



## by1234

Amend Rd and Valley View Rd in El Sobrante


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by j-bo_
> *Help please.
> 
> 
> My antenna is cm3018.
> 
> Here is my list of stations.
> 
> 
> red - uhf WVLA 33 NBC BATON ROUGE LA 248° 34.2 33
> 
> red - uhf WGMB 44 FOX BATON ROUGE LA 248° 34.2 44
> 
> * red - uhf WGMB-DT 45.1 FOX BATON ROUGE LA 248° 34.2 45
> 
> red - uhf WLPB 27 PBS BATON ROUGE LA 251° 29.1 27
> 
> * red - vhf WBRZ-DT 2.1 ABC BATON ROUGE LA 241° 30.5 13
> 
> blue - vhf WAFB 9 CBS BATON ROUGE LA 250° 29.7 9
> 
> blue - uhf WLFT-CA 30 IND BATON ROUGE LA 246° 20.6 30
> 
> blue - vhf WBRZ 2 ABC BATON ROUGE LA 241° 30.5 2
> 
> * blue - uhf WLPB-DT 27.1 PBS BATON ROUGE LA 251° 29.1 25
> 
> *violet - uhf WAFB-DT 9.1 CBS BATON ROUGE LA 260° 26.6 46
> 
> 
> My setup so far.
> 
> 
> I'm using a hughes e86 stb.
> 
> 
> I have the antenna pretty clear, with some far off trees in its path(half mile or so).
> 
> 
> I can get regular vhf channels through the tv, but NOT the stb(call crazy looking). I can pick up the abc hd through the stb. No others as of yet.
> 
> 
> My signal was weak on the analog UHF channels thruogh the tv and same crazy look through the stb.
> 
> 
> I bought a radioshack preamp/amp over the weekend "just to see".
> 
> Made my UHF channels super through the tv, but still the same through the stb.
> 
> 
> Why can't the STB make the analog channels perfect ? They are perfect through the tv.
> 
> 
> I should be able to pickup all the other hdtv stations shouldn't I? They look to be about the same distance as the abc hd stations.
> 
> 
> Is the radioshack preamp/amp just not good? and maybe I should try the channelmaster 7777?
> 
> 
> Did I choose the wrong antenna to begin with? Would going to a cm3020 be a better choice?
> 
> 
> I'm still stumbled why I can get great reception through the tv set on the vhf channels, and they are scrambled looking through the STB. Reasons?
> 
> 
> Please offer some advice. Thanks!*



Until you can get similar analog reception through the STB as through the TV you are forced to assume either something is amiss with the STB or the connection to it. Maybe try an old VCR or something else with a tuner inside it. If the analog reception is o.k., then I'd suspect the STB as the culprit.


----------



## imott




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by by1234_
> *Amend Rd and Valley View Rd in El Sobrante*



Looks like you are on the wrong side of San Pablo Ridge to get Sutro. Plug your address into TERRASERVER , and checkout the topographical view.


i


----------



## by1234

Does that mean I won't be able to get HD ota no matter what?


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by by1234_
> *Amend Rd and Valley View Rd in El Sobrante*



Perhaps there are terrain issues which limit things for you, but this is what I find:

View full report 


*Digital Television Stations (including Special Temporary Authority)*
STATION NETWORK   CHANNEL DIRECTION DISTANCE         ERP       HAAT CITY/LICENSEE
KPIX-DT  CBS       UHF 29  197.6°   17.18mi   1,000.00kW   1,316f t (SAN FRANCISCO, CA) CBS BROADCASTING INC.
KFSF-DT  TFT       UHF 34  197.6°   17.24mi     150.00kW   1,375f t (VALLEJO, CA) TELEFUTURA SAN FRANCISCO LLC
KCNS-DT  IND       UHF 39  197.6°   17.24mi     468.00kW   1,404f t (SAN FRANCISCO, CA) WRAY, INC.
KCSM-DT  PBS       UHF 43  197.6°   17.24mi     536.00kW   1,404f t (SAN MATEO, CA) SAN MATEO COUNTY COMMUNITY COLLEGE DISTRICT
KBHK-DT  UPN       UHF 45  197.6°   17.24mi     400.00kW   1,463f t (SAN FRANCISCO, CA) VIACOM TELEVISION STATIONS GROUP OF SAN FRANCISCO INC.
KTVU-DT  FOX       UHF 56  197.6°   17.24mi   1,000.00kW   1,421f t (OAKLAND, CA) KTVU PARTNERSHIP
KRON-DT  IND       UHF 57  197.6°   17.24mi   1,000.00kW   1,463f t (SAN FRANCISCO, CA) YOUNG BROADCASTING OF SAN FRANCISCO, INC.
KBWB     WB        UHF 19  197.6°   17.26mi     383.00kW   1 ,371ft (SAN FRANCISCO, CA) KBWB LICENSE, INC.
KGO-DT   ABC       UHF 24  197.6°   17.26mi     561.00kW   1,434 ft (SAN FRANCISCO, CA) KGO TELEVISION, INC.
KQED     PBS       UHF 30  197.6°   17.26mi     777.00kW   1 ,434ft (SAN FRANCISCO, CA) KQED, INC.
KFTL-DT            UHF 62   91.4°   20.69mi     300.00kW   3,045f t (STOCKTON, CA) TELEFUTURA SACRAMENTO LLC
KTNC-DT  AZT       UHF 63   91.4°   20.69mi      24.10kW   3,091f t (CONCORD, CA) KTNC LICENSE, LLC
KTLN-DT  IND       UHF 47  292.3°   21.11mi     230.00kW   1,319f t (NOVATO, CA) CHRISTIAN COMMUNICATIONS CHICAGOLAND
KTSF-DT  IND       UHF 27  188.4°   20.93mi     220.00kW   1,312f t (SAN FRANCISCO, CA) LINCOLN BROADCASTING COMPANY, A CALIFORNIA LP
KKPX-DT  PAX       UHF 41  188.4°   20.93mi   1,000.00kW   1,371f t (SAN JOSE, CA) PAXSON SAN JOSE LICENSE, INC.
KRCB-DT  PBS       UHF 23  314.3°   30.82mi       4.70kW   2,065f t (COTATI, CA) RURAL CALIFORNIA BROADCASTING CORP.
KSTS     Telemundo UHF 49  130.1°   39.30mi     257.00kW   2 ,257ft (SAN JOSE, CA) NBC TELEMUNDO LICENSE CO.
KSTS-DT  Telemundo UHF 49  130.1°   39.30mi     200.00kW   2,257f t (SAN JOSE, CA) NBC TELEMUNDO LICENSE CO.
KDTV-DT  Univision UHF 51  130.1°   39.30mi     476.30kW   2,300f t (SAN FRANCISCO, CA) KDTV LICENSE PARTNERSHIP, G.P.
KICU-DT  IND       UHF 52  130.4°   40.10mi     251.00kW   2,192f t (SAN JOSE, CA) KTVU PARTNERSHIP
KXTV     ABC       UHF 61   50.9°   46.51mi   1,000.00kW   1 ,946ft (SACRAMENTO, CA) KXTV, INC.
KOVR-DT  CBS       UHF 25   50.9°   46.52mi   1,000.00kW   1,949f t (STOCKTON, CA) SCI-SACRAMENTO LICENSEE, LLC
KCRA-DT  NBC       UHF 35   50.3°   46.72mi     687.00kW   1,516f t (SACRAMENTO, CA) KCRA HEARST-ARGYLE TELEVISION, INC.
KCRA-DT  NBC       UHF 35   50.3°   46.72mi   1,000.00kW   1,516f t (SACRAMENTO, CA) KCRA HEARST-ARGYLE TELEVISION, INC.
NEW                UHF 43   50.3°   46.72mi      50.00kW   1 ,096ft (SACRAMENTO, CA) FAMILY STATIONS, INC.
KVIE-DT  PBS       UHF 53   48.3°   47.24mi     360.00kW   1,857f t (SACRAMENTO, CA) KVIE, INC.
KTXL     FOX       UHF 55   48.3°   47.25mi     290.00kW   1 ,906ft (SACRAMENTO, CA) CHANNEL 40, INC.
KMAX-DT  UPN       UHF 21   49.3°   47.77mi       7.20kW     989f t (SACRAMENTO, CA) UPN STATIONS GROUP INC.
KQCA-DT  WB        UHF 46   49.3°   47.77mi     385.90kW   1,903f t (STOCKTON, CA) KCRA HEARST-ARGYLE TELEVISION, INC.
KQCA-DT  WB        UHF 46   49.3°   47.77mi     385.90kW   1,903f t (STOCKTON, CA) KCRA HEARST-ARGYLE TELEVISION, INC.
KQCA-DT  WB        UHF 46   49.3°   47.77mi       0.77kW   1,391f t (STOCKTON, CA) KCRA HEARST-ARGYLE TELEVISION, INC.
KFTY-DT  IND       UHF 54  324.0°   52.16mi      30.00kW   3,045f t (SANTA ROSA, CA) ACKERLEY MEDIA GROUP, INC.

Data compiled from FCC database on 1/22/2005.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> Does that mean I won't be able to get HD ota no matter what?



by1234, pending more responses from HD gurus which I'm not, if I lived in El Sobrante and the HD total fanatic that I am, I'd do the following:

1. Put the bookmark for antennaweb.org in the not to be opened file. (It says my address can only get 2 digital stations when I can get about 10 rock solid 24/7.)

2. Take the Terk antenna back to BB for refund.

3. Go to Radio Shack and buy a #15-2160 antenna for about $25 (The RS at Pinole Vista Ctr. should have it.)

4. Take the antenna to my roof and run an RG6 cable from it directly into my STB (or TV internal tuner).

4. If still nothing, return antenna to RS for refund and go to No. 5.

5. Order a CM 4221 from Warren Electronics on the web for about $35 incl. S&H and I should have in a few days. Then do #4 again.

6. If still nothing, I'd probably eat the $35 and consider other options longer term, such as putting up a 40 or 50 ft. tower. But hopefully, I've picked up some digital stations by now and want to think about permanently putting the antenna on the roof or preferably trying the attic. Then I'd look to running the RG6 through my house to the TV/STB.


----------



## by1234

Thanks for the suggestion. Do you think a Silver Sensor would help short of getting an external antenna?


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> Thanks for the suggestion. Do you think a Silver Sensor would help short of getting an external antenna?



I've had no experience with a SS since my reception involves huge distances. Perhaps someone else can chime in here, but I've seen high praise for the SS and it may be worth a try.


----------



## atye




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by by1234_
> *Thanks for the suggestion. Do you think a Silver Sensor would help short of getting an external antenna?*



I've got a SS and get stations up to 50 miles away, but that one is pretty wide open to me. If you have significant obstacles in your way it's really uncertain. But given your situation, I'd try everything I could to get it to work.


----------



## imott




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by by1234_
> *Thanks for the suggestion. Do you think a Silver Sensor would help short of getting an external antenna?*



Have you taken a look at the topo for your address at Terraserver? You are on the East side of San Pablo Ridge I think Sutro would be tough unless you are near the top. El Sobrante is quite hilly; are you on top of one or down in one of the valleys? Can you see Sutro Tower from your roof? If not, I might suggest you try for some of the channels to your East (See Dswallow's post a few posts back). Do you have a compass? Knowing where you are in relation to the obstructions around you are key to making this work. I wouldn't rule out an indoor antenna; however, I'd be suprised if you could get anything without going outdoors and up! I just had to put a 30' pole in the ground to pickup Sutro from Cupertino. Now that I have...I couldn't be happier!!!


----------



## COLAVSFANINNWIA




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *From what market are your stations?*



Sioux Falls South Dakota, KTTW-DT (fox) broadcasts at an ERP of .022 kW. If my math is correct, is that not 22 watts? I think that is BS even for a STA. I also think the FCC website is wrong about the range of that tower.~ColAvsFan


Here is a post at our local HDTV forum:

KTTW-DT is only 4 miles away from me at 126 degrees (according to antennaweb.org). and I still can't get the signal. My antenana is indoors going into a built-in tuner. I get KDLT-DT which is over 14 miles away with more buildings in that direction. I think the problem is just simply...FOX is on extremely low power.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by by1234_
> *Thanks for the suggestion. Do you think a Silver Sensor would help short of getting an external antenna?*



A typical attic install can block 99% of the signal reaching the antenna because of the walls or roof. An indoor antenna can be just as bad, or sometimes a little better if there are windows along the path to the transmitter instead of walls.


A properly mounted outdoor antenna is almost a must for fringe or troublesome reception locations to give you the best chance of getting what you want.


I would try the Winegard SS-1000 or SS-2000 SquareShooter antenna long before trying any indoor antenna if you are able to mount it somewhere outside. And the SquareShooter is very compact at 16"x16"x4". At only 18 miles to most of your stations and all of them being UHF, the SquareShooter should work for you, provided terrain is not an issue.


----------



## slapshot

quote:Originally posted by j-bo

Maybe the hughes just isn't a very good OTA receiver?


It may be toasted. They are famous for dying from insufficient cooling capability if an auxiliary fan is not added.[/quote]


I have the Mitsubishi version of this STB. It is a defect in the receiver,mine does the same thing,analog OTA looks scrambled through the Mits,OTA digital is perfect. Went bad after a couple of years. I've learned to live with it,until I can get a replacement or a good deal from DTV.


----------



## by1234




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by imott_
> *Have you taken a look at the topo for your address at Terraserver? You are on the East side of San Pablo Ridge I think Sutro would be tough unless you are near the top. El Sobrante is quite hilly; are you on top of one or down in one of the valleys? Can you see Sutro Tower from your roof? If not, I might suggest you try for some of the channels to your East (See Dswallow's post a few posts back). Do you have a compass? Knowing where you are in relation to the obstructions around you are key to making this work. I wouldn't rule out an indoor antenna; however, I'd be suprised if you could get anything without going outdoors and up! I just had to put a 30' pole in the ground to pickup Sutro from Cupertino. Now that I have...I couldn't be happier!!!*



I tried a RS 15-1880 last night and was able to get 2 ABC channels (dropping in and out intermittently). I am about half way up the hill. I will try the Silver Sensor next since I don't want to push my luck trying to sneak a huge outdoor eyesore past my wife.







....at least not yet.


I don't think east is an option for me since I am on the west side of the hill in the middle. The hill is directly blocking anything from the east.


----------



## imott




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by by1234_
> *I tried a RS 15-1880 last night and was able to get 2 ABC channels (dropping in and out intermittently). I am about half way up the hill. I will try the Silver Sensor next since I don't want to push my luck trying to sneak a huge outdoor eyesore past my wife.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....at least not yet.
> 
> 
> I don't think east is an option for me since I am on the west side of the hill in the middle. The hill is directly blocking anything from the east.*



Check this one out...Not big at all! 36" tall x 20"wide x 4" deep. Channel Master 4221 About $45.


----------



## rdwalt

Acutally you can pick up a 4221(3021) from your local ACE Hardware for ~ $25


----------



## j-bo

Slapshot et al,


Thanks for the input on the hughes STB. I rescanned a bunch of times. Checked the signal on some local digital stations which was at 100%, but the scan wouldn't pick it up!


Goin shoppin for an OTA receiver, rotator, and a CH7777.


Returning the r/shack preamp/amp.


Wife thinks I'm bozo.


----------



## Platup

I currently am using a Terk HDTVi (silver sensor knockoff with VHF rabbit ears). I get almost every channel. One station I can't get the 3rd subchannel (I get 8.1 and 8.2, but can't get 8.3). The other 4.1 won't come in at all, but I can get another station in the same direction that is further away.

Will adding any kind of amplifier help? If so, any suggestions on what kind and where to get it?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Platup_
> *One station I can't get the 3rd subchannel (I get 8.1 and 8.2, but can't get 8.3). The other 4.1 won't come in at all, but I can get another station in the same direction that is further away.
> *



Amplifiers and indoor antennas almost never mix well.


No amplifier or antenna upgrade is going to get you 8.3. If you're getting a solid picture on 8.1 or 8.2, the problem is either that your receiver isn't properly decoding the signal (possible,) or more likely that the station doesn't intend for viewers to use 8.3 and it's there as a placeholder. The entire 19Mbps ATSC stream has to be decoded to figure out the information in 8.1 or 8.2, which means that the problem with 8.3 isn't signal strength or signal quality.


----------



## Platup

Thanks Sregener that helps.


It's most likely the receiver. I'm currently using a Fusion 3 in a HTPC. If I use the same antenna with my dish reciver I get everything including 8.3 and 4.1. With the fusion 8.3 has come in before, but goes in and out almost like a week signal, but 8.1 will be fine. In fact, sometimes I get 8.2 on 8.3 and vice versa.


----------



## greenknight

Noticed a setup a few blocks away where the ota antenna is mounted above the dish and appears to be delta wing shaped unit that is very thin.

Any idea what this is? The dish is a 3-lnb D* unit. Thanks


----------



## CHAS ZOSS

Greenknight, I beleive it is a Channelmaster stealth ant.


----------



## imott




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by greenknight_
> *Noticed a setup a few blocks away where the ota antenna is mounted above the dish and appears to be delta wing shaped unit that is very thin.
> 
> Any idea what this is? The dish is a 3-lnb D* unit. Thanks*


 Channel Master Stealth


----------



## ericdwong

I'm going to apologize in advance for posting this but I hope the mods do not delete it. This seems to be one of the best resources of knowledge on the net regarding antennas, so I'm going to ask this here, regarding antennas for FM for the car.


...my car came OEM with diversity reception, the only problem now is I

put in an aftermarket radio which uses only one antenna. The car uses 2

in the glass style antennas, one in the front of the car, one in the

rear of the car. I tried to use just one of the antennas with the

aftermarket radio and it seems as though the front antennas is good for

the upper 1/2 the FM band and the rear one is good for the lower 1/2.

If I plug both in at the same time, the reception is very "multipathy",

probably because both antennas are used at the same time effectively

picking up alot of garbage and cancellation. Overall, the reception is

very poor.


I was thinking if there is an externalbrain that could be used as the

diversity switcher. Is there such a thing?


Unfortunately I think this may have to be done in conjunction with the

radio since it is probably specific to which frequency the radio is

tuned in on but I'd though I'd ask anyway.


I tried one "solution" is one of these small amplified antennas that

tape onto the windshield. Unfortunately, the unit was alot smaller then

I had expected, it is probably 1/8 wavelength. It is

amplified but it works worse then the OEM antennas.



PS I'm looking into other antenna options as well. the car is a plastic

body on frame design (chevy corvette), it does not really have a large

"ground plane" so to speak, other then the frame of the car itself. I

really dont want to put any huge antennas on the outside of the car

either, although the convertible models did have a powered "whip" style

antennas I'm not too inclined to punch a hole in my car to put it on.



I'm thinking about boat antennas since many boats are of similar

composite body/metal frame designs.



The rear bumper of the car has a very large area behind it, I think I

may be able to fit even a 1/2 wavelength antenna back there, but

horizontally. Can anybody recommend either an antenna thats premade or

one that I can fabricate that will work well for my application?


Or, if someone can point me to the right direction on a FM enthusiast chat board?


----------



## toddr007




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *You just did. Weak signals show up on analog as snow. Multipath shows up as ghosting. (Some people get both.) If you're getting snow but not ghosting, a weak signal is your problem, not multipath.
> 
> 
> The solution for a weak signal is either a larger antenna (like the 4228) or a preamplifier. I'd go with the preamp, personally. Get one from Channel Master or Winegard that has less than 20db of gain. The top gain models might overload. There's no guarantee that this will work, so keep your receipts.*



I just wanted to update what I've done to get things working for me. Since I didn't have time to go buy a decent amplifier (before the Superbowl that is), I decided to at least do what I could to minimize losses between the antenna and my TV. I mentioned in my original post that I was using the old cable that was up on the roof since I bought my house (over 12 years ago), and that I was going through a splitter since that was where the main cable (RG59?) joined the original antenna.


So I bought 50' of new RG6 and ran that straight from my antenna to the TV - and ...(cue drum roll please) the signal / noise ratio on almost every channel was improved by 6 to 10 dB, and the signal strength was up by 20% or so. I now can pick up all of the digital channels fine including the elusive channel 50 (KSTP) 5.1, and some of the weaker signals that hadn't been detected by previous scans (KTCI channel 17.1-17.5 on broadcasting on 16 with 50kW of ERP). Also the reception on high band VHF isn't bad at all. Only the low band VHF is a little bit snowy - but it's better than I would have expected with a UHF antenna (CM 4221). Besides - I wasn't really planning on watching much analog TV with this set anyway - at least with this antenna setup. So at least for me, paying attention to the cable and connections helped a lot.


Of course, this brings up a question. It's hard to tell what gained me the most - the elimination of the splitter or the new cable, but I have to assume at this point that the dielectric in the old coax has deteriorated over time. Does anyone have an estimate on how much or how fast that happens - or rather more simply - what is the life expectancy of coax? Is there a preferred brand or type that holds up better to exposure outdoors?


Thanks to this forum and especially thanks to sregener for your assistance getting me a little way up the learning curve and helping me understand the nature of my problems.


Todd


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by toddr007_
> *So I bought 50' of new RG6 and ran that straight from my antenna to the TV - and ...(cue drum roll please) the signal / noise ratio on almost every channel was improved by 6 to 10 dB, and the signal strength was up by 20% or so.
> 
> 
> Of course, this brings up a question. It's hard to tell what gained me the most - the elimination of the splitter or the new cable, but I have to assume at this point that the dielectric in the old coax has deteriorated over time. Does anyone have an estimate on how much or how fast that happens - or rather more simply - what is the life expectancy of coax? Is there a preferred brand or type that holds up better to exposure outdoors?*



Your splitter is capable of introducing a 3.5-4db loss, depending on its quality. 3db is a gain/loss of half the absolute signal strength.


Bad connectors can cause all sorts of problems. If you waterproof them, there's no reason for the cables to go bad. The middle of your RG59 was probably fine, but the connectors at the end rusted some and deteriorated over time. Really, it doesn't matter what kind of coax you use - the ends are the only possible point of breakdown due to weather. (You can, of course, run over the cable with your lawn mower or clip it with hedge trimmers, which would cause some loss in the middle of the cable...) Weather boots help.


Your average antenna has a lifespan of about 10 years, after which it starts breaking down itself because of rust. The connectors of the twin-lead alone can go bad. As a general rule, when you replace the antenna, you should replace all the outside connections as well.


Glad to hear you had success with such a simple solution.


----------



## cjhrph

Registered: Mar 2004

Location: Central NY (Utica/Syracuse)

Posts: 10

Attention Antenna Guru's


I live in ZIP 13323 approx 30-40 miles from the towers. Its hilly terrain here and im not at one of the highest elevations in the area. I have been messing with the DTV signals for the last year and have tried the following equipment/setup.


Zenith HDV420

Samsung 351

Samsung 165


Channel Master 4248, 4228

Winegard PR-9032


Channel Master 7777 pre-amp


Rooftop install with rotor ~ 35 ft above ground.


It appears that for my location the Yagi's work better than the bowtie, presumably due to multipath. I have not been sucessful with either of the Samsung's, they just cant lock and hold the signals.


The 420 with the Winegard has been pretty good on most channels. However, I still suffer from random dropouts and pixellation. I recently picked up an LG4200A receiver and its pretty good except it completely rejects one of the stations that I used to get with the 420.


I am considering a different antenna, perhaps the DAT-75, JBX-21, or XG91. I was hoping that one of these designs may just be that much better than the Winegard to allow for better success. I really cant get any more height without erecting a tower.


Could someone that has used one of these other antennas tell me if they think this would be a worthwhile upgrade. And if so, where to purchase the european antennas. I know where to get the XG91.


Thank You


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cjhrph_
> *Could someone that has used one of these other antennas tell me if they think this would be a worthwhile upgrade. And if so, where to purchase the european antennas. I know where to get the XG91.
> *



Last question first:
http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/home/homepage.jsp 


It's hard to say if it would be worthwhile or not. I assume you've read my 91XG review ( http://www.geocities.com/figbert/ant...irect91xg.html ) and so you've seen that I still haven't gotten completely reliable long-distance reception. Sadly, once you're below the radio horizon, more antenna makes a difference, but it's a subtle one.


The PR-9032 is an excellent antenna, over 114" long. The 91XG is 21" shorter. Length matters, but only on higher channel numbers. Once you get below channel 32, you're really using a corner reflector rather than a yagi. (Exception: some yaigs are tuned for channels lower than 69, but no "regular" UHF antenna is.) And looking at the corner reflector for the 9032, I think the 91XG's is better.


I think the difference is probably going to end up being subtle. You'll still get breakups, but they won't be quite so common, and they won't be as disturbing. Whether it's worth it to you to spend that kind of money for a minimal improvement is up to you.


More likely, once the next chipsets come on the market, like the one just announced at CEA by Samsung that is supposed to be "the bomb" with weak signals, an upgraded receiver will solve the issues. There really isn't too much difference between the 3rd (420HDV) and 4th (LG 4200A) receivers for weak signals. Their primary benefits were for multipath.


The best thing you could do is add some height to your installation. I know that means a tower, but that gives you the best shot at success. A doubling of antenna height is worth about 20db, which is more gain than the biggest, baddest antenna in the universe compared to a UHF loop.


All of this assumes, of course, that your cabling is quality (RG-6 or better, shielded) and all of your connectors are good (have you tried replacing the balun?) and you have no splits in your line (splitters are bad.)


Another guy just last week reported replacing the balun on his PR-9032 and all his reception problems went away...


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cjhrph_
> *Registered: Mar 2004
> 
> Location: Central NY (Utica/Syracuse)
> 
> Posts: 10
> 
> Attention Antenna Guru's
> 
> 
> I live in ZIP 13323 approx 30-40 miles from the towers. Its hilly terrain here and im not at one of the highest elevations in the area. I have been messing with the DTV signals for the last year and have tried the following equipment/setup.
> 
> 
> Zenith HDV420
> 
> Samsung 351
> 
> Samsung 165
> 
> 
> Channel Master 4248, 4228
> 
> Winegard PR-9032
> 
> 
> Channel Master 7777 pre-amp
> 
> 
> Rooftop install with rotor ~ 35 ft above ground.
> 
> 
> It appears that for my location the Yagi's work better than the bowtie, presumably due to multipath. I have not been sucessful with either of the Samsung's, they just cant lock and hold the signals.
> 
> 
> The 420 with the Winegard has been pretty good on most channels. However, I still suffer from random dropouts and pixellation. I recently picked up an LG4200A receiver and its pretty good except it completely rejects one of the stations that I used to get with the 420.
> 
> 
> I am considering a different antenna, perhaps the DAT-75, JBX-21, or XG91. I was hoping that one of these designs may just be that much better than the Winegard to allow for better success. I really cant get any more height without erecting a tower.
> 
> 
> Could someone that has used one of these other antennas tell me if they think this would be a worthwhile upgrade. And if so, where to purchase the european antennas. I know where to get the XG91.
> 
> 
> Thank You*



In my experience, the DAT75 would provide you with a small but significant improvement pretty much over the entire UHF band. Whether it would be enough, I don't know. The XG91 seems to be by all indications very comparable to the DAT75 but I've never had one myself.


Have you tried different heights of the antenna within the limits of your installation? Sometimes, lower is better (in my case it is). Assuming you have already, your options would be staying with a single antenna and upgrading vs. stacking. Horizontally stacked PR9032's I can tell you will be better than a single DAT75 but not as good as stacked 75's. Stacking horizontally will not only increase gain but narrow beamwidth which helps with multipath and co-channel interference.


If you decide to stack and need help, PM me and I'll be glad to help all I can. I've attached a pic of my stack when I had the PR9032's up.


----------



## cjhrph

The balun.. Ill bet mines crap. And it may have been compromised with humidity/water over the winter. Ill try replacing it with a quality balun and re cutting the connections up there.


Who knows what and where the best balun for the 9032 can be purchased ?


If that doesn't work I may have to try two of them when the weather warms up. Anothher 9032 can be had for not too much money. (Ill have to contact you cpcat).


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cjhrph_
> *
> 
> Who knows what and where the best balun for the 9032 can be purchased ?
> 
> *



RS has one: http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...t%5Fid=15-1140 


Also from Channelmaster: http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm


----------



## ADevantier




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cjhrph_
> *Registered: Mar 2004
> 
> Location: Central NY (Utica/Syracuse)
> 
> Posts: 10
> 
> Attention Antenna Guru's
> 
> 
> I live in ZIP 13323 approx 30-40 miles from the towers. Its hilly terrain here and im not at one of the highest elevations in the area. I have been messing with the DTV signals for the last year and have tried the following equipment/setup.
> 
> 
> Zenith HDV420
> 
> Samsung 351
> 
> Samsung 165
> 
> 
> Channel Master 4248, 4228
> 
> Winegard PR-9032
> 
> 
> Channel Master 7777 pre-amp
> 
> 
> Rooftop install with rotor ~ 35 ft above ground.
> 
> 
> It appears that for my location the Yagi's work better than the bowtie, presumably due to multipath. I have not been sucessful with either of the Samsung's, they just cant lock and hold the signals.
> 
> 
> The 420 with the Winegard has been pretty good on most channels. However, I still suffer from random dropouts and pixellation. I recently picked up an LG4200A receiver and its pretty good except it completely rejects one of the stations that I used to get with the 420.
> 
> 
> I am considering a different antenna, perhaps the DAT-75, JBX-21, or XG91. I was hoping that one of these designs may just be that much better than the Winegard to allow for better success. I really cant get any more height without erecting a tower.
> 
> 
> Could someone that has used one of these other antennas tell me if they think this would be a worthwhile upgrade. And if so, where to purchase the european antennas. I know where to get the XG91.
> 
> 
> Thank You*



Have you tried moving the current antenna to different location the roof? The difference in mounting location can be a much bigger difference than the antenna themselves. Check out HDTV primer for some notes on "hot spots" and "cold spots".


allan


----------



## cjhrph

Not yet. Its a bit snowy up there right now. The tripod is permanently mounted to the roof and I would have to pull it. It current location is the only one on the roof where you could see the horizon in the direction of the transmitters. Once the snow melts Ill give it a try just for the hell of it.


Someone other than RadioShack must make a really good low-loss balun. I already have one of the channelmasters.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cjhrph_
> *Someone other than RadioShack must make a really good low-loss balun. I already have one of the channelmasters.*



They probably all come from the same place, China. I think I read a review a few years back by someone who tried a bunch of different baluns and determined the difference between the best and worst was so small as to be impossible to measure.


----------



## homer1

What amp do you suggest with the xg91 yagi? I am approximately 77 miles away but have a tower of 90ft. I am hopeing to get some more HD.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by homer1_
> *What amp do you suggest with the xg91 yagi? I am approximately 77 miles away but have a tower of 90ft. I am hopeing to get some more HD.*



Where you live,a 90ft tower is a plus.Somewhat of a tv wasteland.Plenty of PBS,but not much else.Paducah,Cape Girardeau,Evansville might be easier than St Louis.


The XG is a good choice.A rotor and a CM 7777 preamp and you're good to go.


What Make and model is the Tower?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by homer1_
> *What amp do you suggest with the xg91 yagi?*



For maximum gain and minimal noise, the CM7777 is the way to go. (Don't get the 7775 as it doesn't even pass VHF, which may come back to haunt you after the analog shutoff.)


----------



## Rack




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by homer1_
> *What amp do you suggest with the xg91 yagi?*


 http://www.researchcomms.com/hdtv.html 

I was looking around for the 9248/HDTV and it seems they have a new amp out, the 9250. It'll probably run about £120 or so shipped from the UK, though.


It might be easier to go with a couple 91XGs, a low-loss combiner and a "noisy" CM7777 over just 1 91XG and an exotic ultra-low noise pre-amp.


----------



## homer1

MAX HD, my tower was put up for wireless internet. It came in 10 ft sections. I don't know the model#. It has a dozen guy wires and is clamped to another 25 ft tower mounted in concrete, so it is pretty sturdy.

I am going to do so more reading but plan on the XG91 plus the cm7777, and a rotor. Without stacking antennas, is this about as well as I can do?

Thanks again to all the people offering your insights!!!


----------



## greenmaji

I dont have line of site to the dtv towers in my area but there is a cellular phone tower about 200 yards behind me and is reflecting almost all of the analog signal Im getting I was wondering if there is a chance I could recive digital signal that is retransmited by this tower. anyone have any ideas?


----------



## daredevil23




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by homer1_
> *What amp do you suggest with the xg91 yagi? I am approximately 77 miles away but have a tower of 90ft. I am hopeing to get some more HD.*



I hope they put a red light on the top of it to comply with FAA regulations.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by homer1_
> *MAX HD, my tower was put up for wireless internet. It came in 10 ft sections. I don't know the model#. It has a dozen guy wires and is clamped to another 25 ft tower mounted in concrete, so it is pretty sturdy.
> 
> I am going to do so more reading but plan on the XG91 plus the cm7777, and a rotor. Without stacking antennas, is this about as well as I can do?
> *



Without stacking,the XG will work as good as anything for UHF.You might want to consider a VHF antenna for current and future use.I can fix you up with the largest High Band VHF available on the planet for 69 bucks plus Shipping.You would need 5ft of mast above the top of the tower for both antennas.

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/UltraHighGain/ 


FYI-the XG91 and the PSP.1922 have a windload factor expressed as an N-factor of 158,which equates to ~36lbs of lateral force @80mph windspeed.Your tower should handle this much load with ease,probably much more.


BTW,who's going to climb your tower and do an install? Any way to post a pic?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Rack_
> * http://www.researchcomms.com/hdtv.html
> 
> I was looking around for the 9248/HDTV and it seems they have a new amp out, the 9250. It'll probably run about £120 or so shipped from the UK, though.
> 
> 
> It might be easier to go with a couple 91XGs, a low-loss combiner and a "noisy" CM7777 over just 1 91XG and an exotic ultra-low noise pre-amp.*



I have the HDTV LNA from Research Communications. It's good but not as good as the CM 7777. If anyone gets it who's reading this, be sure to get a *good* FM trap as it won't work without one.


----------



## homer1

"BTW,who's going to climb your tower and do an install? Any way to post a pic?"


I will get the camera out and get a pic, hope I can get it posted ok. My IP will probably climb up there. Local antenna installer says he does'nt like the 90 footers, and preferred not doing it. The IP I have, climb cell towers that are 3X's taller than myself. I personally cringe when I get much over the roof line. Funny thing is, as a kid, we climbed water towers for kicks on a couple different occasions. Not now though!


----------



## sebenste

Hello all,


I'd like an answer as to which antenna is better for UHF reception

across the entire band, on average: the Channelmaster 4228

8-bay or the AntennasDirect XG-91. I have always been suspicious

of yagis since the "corner reflectors" couldn't reflect much, just by a look

at their design. The XG-91 uses pretty much a mesh screen like the

CM 4228, but of course, the dipoles aren't spread out like on the

4228. Also, I suspect the 4228 might be more helpful if one part of the

bays actually hits a "hot spot" while the rest of the antenna is "colder"

with the signal. I am aware of its design problem.


I have a friend who is 80 miles away from a 1 mw ERP UHF station,

and it locks with a Winegard 8200p, the big honkin' VHF/UHF

combo antenna, on a 30' tower. But, he's trying to get a low-powered

DTV station 35 miles away from the tower, and he can't lock it no matter what. He's using a CM 7777 preamp for it, in case he wanted a separate

UHF antenna, which he also made room for, just in case. And, a new

DirecTV HDTV tuner/receiver.


Since he has relatively flat land in north-central Illinois where he is, do

I tell him to get the 4228 or XG-91? Which may more likely lock the

signal? It seems, at least, that the XG-91 and the 4228 will beat the

biggest VHF-UHF combo antenna, since a combo antenna is always

a compromise in reception of broad frequency ranges. I suspect

the XG-91 may be the better go, since they frequently get severe

storms, and even though he is using a non-standard mast that is

much thicker than the ones you can buy at the store (pretty much

pipe!), the wind load may still be too much for it to handle during

very bad weather. Or, is there a better way to handle this?


And, does the XG-91 ever go on sale?


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sebenste_
> *Hello all,
> 
> 
> I'd like an answer as to which antenna is better for UHF reception
> 
> across the entire band, on average: the Channelmaster 4228
> 
> 8-bay or the AntennasDirect XG-91. I have always been suspicious
> 
> of yagis since the "corner reflectors" couldn't reflect much, just by a look
> 
> at their design. The XG-91 uses pretty much a mesh screen like the
> 
> CM 4228, but of course, the dipoles aren't spread out like on the
> 
> 4228. Also, I suspect the 4228 might be more helpful if one part of the
> 
> bays actually hits a "hot spot" while the rest of the antenna is "colder"
> 
> with the signal. I am aware of its design problem.
> 
> 
> I have a friend who is 80 miles away from a 1 mw ERP UHF station,
> 
> and it locks with a Winegard 8200p, the big honkin' VHF/UHF
> 
> combo antenna, on a 30' tower. But, he's trying to get a low-powered
> 
> DTV station 35 miles away from the tower, and he can't lock it no matter what. He's using a CM 7777 preamp for it, in case he wanted a separate
> 
> UHF antenna, which he also made room for, just in case. And, a new
> 
> DirecTV HDTV tuner/receiver.
> 
> 
> Since he has relatively flat land in north-central Illinois where he is, do
> 
> I tell him to get the 4228 or XG-91? Which may more likely lock the
> 
> signal? It seems, at least, that the XG-91 and the 4228 will beat the
> 
> biggest VHF-UHF combo antenna, since a combo antenna is always
> 
> a compromise in reception of broad frequency ranges. I suspect
> 
> the XG-91 may be the better go, since they frequently get severe
> 
> storms, and even though he is using a non-standard mast that is
> 
> much thicker than the ones you can buy at the store (pretty much
> 
> pipe!), the wind load may still be too much for it to handle during
> 
> very bad weather. Or, is there a better way to handle this?
> 
> 
> And, does the XG-91 ever go on sale?*



If you plan on using a rotor especially in high winds the 91xg is the better choice. As for performance a local here did a head to head test with the 4228 and the 91 xg. The signal was a bit stronger on most stations with the 91xg. However on a few channels the 4228 did better and suprisingly it was the one of the higher channels rather then lower, 58. The 4228 did not get a few channels but the 91 xg only missed the one. He stayed with the 91xg. All other channels except one the 91xg was equal or stronger the 4228. This was not an official test in anyway but was taken on the same day and weather conditions in this particular case. The 4228 may outperform the91xg in a similar test in another area there's no real way to know.


Now for my experience I have both a HD 7084 just under the 8200 and the 91xg. I use the 91 xg for far away digitals and the 7084 for my VHF digitals and a few UHF digitals in a different direction. I have the rotor on the 7084 for I do get some very good analog from all directions.


The 91xg seems to have a reliable limit of about 70 to 80 miles even with low powered UHF. I receive a few low power signals from a distance of 60+ miles out very reliable. Even the station eng. was suprised I could receive them from my location (out of their present and full power coverage area). I am in the valley here and beyond that the mountains get huge. Late night I can get digital lock over 150 miles ( up the valley) barely reliable enough to watch. Compared to the 7084 on strong digital signals not much difference. With weak signals the 91xg does find and lock some digitals the 7084 only gets an ocassional blip or nothing at all. I do not use an amp on the 91xg or the 7084 at present.


As for sale . I have never seen the 91XG on sale. I don't think Antennas Direct runs any sales but I may be wrong.


Conclusion at least here in the mountains and valleys of TN. the 91xg seems to do a very good job. Note the 91XG is an extremely directional antenna and requires accurate aiming. I can move my but a few degrees and loose a station completely. This of course is my experience only others may differ. Good Luck.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *If you plan on using a rotor especially in high winds the 91xg is the better choice. As for performance a local here did a head to head test with the 4228 and the 91 xg. The signal was a bit stronger on most stations with the 91xg. However on a few channels the 4228 did better and suprisingly it was the one of the higher channels rather then lower, 58. The 4228 did not get a few channels but the 91 xg only missed the one. He stayed with the 91xg. All other channels except one the 91xg was equal or stronger the 4228. This was not an official test in anyway but was taken on the same day and weather conditions in this particular case. The 4228 may outperform the91xg in a similar test in another area there's no real way to know.
> 
> 
> Now for my experience I have both a HD 7084 just under the 8200 and the 91xg. I use the 91 xg for far away digitals and the 7084 for my VHF digitals and a few UHF digitals in a different direction. I have the rotor on the 7084 for I do get some very good analog from all directions.
> 
> 
> The 91xg seems to have a reliable limit of about 70 to 80 miles even with low powered UHF. I receive a few low power signals from a distance of 60+ miles out very reliable. Even the station eng. was suprised I could receive them from my location (out of their present and full power coverage area). I am in the valley here and beyond that the mountains get huge. Late night I can get digital lock over 150 miles ( up the valley) barely reliable enough to watch. Compared to the 7084 on strong digital signals not much difference. With weak signals the 91xg does find and lock some digitals the 7084 only gets an ocassional blip or nothing at all. I do not use an amp on the 91xg or the 7084 at present.
> 
> 
> As for sale . I have never seen the 91XG on sale. I don't think Antennas Direct runs any sales but I may be wrong.
> 
> 
> Conclusion at least here in the mountains and valleys of TN. the 91xg seems to do a very good job. Note the 91XG is an extremely directional antenna and requires accurate aiming. I can move my but a few degrees and loose a station completely. This of course is my experience only others may differ. Good Luck.*



jimc,


You may want to edit one sentence in your last paragraph....unless you're serious


I've tried various UHF antennas and settled on the Quad-X style for best overall performance.As far as the cost on the XG91,it's reasonable with the money back guarantee feature.If more than one is needed it's more economical to buy the Funke DC4591 from CPC in the UK(~$139 for two w/frt).They're the same except for the pickup element.


----------



## WILDCAT NATION

I have a Radio Shack Combo UHF/VHF antenna that works JUST FINE when I have it on a mast in a tripod about 15 feet off the ground in my driveway...


Now, yesterday I mounted it on the chimney of our house, and got absolutely NOTHING...Basically, I gained 25 feet in altitude, got above the tree line, and have a clear shot...but it doesn't work at all, and there was absolutely NO changes to the setup I was running. Can someone explain this one to me?


Would the galvanized Chimney cap cause that much trouble? It's about 2 feet above this cap.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by WILDCAT NATION_
> *I have a Radio Shack Combo UHF/VHF antenna that works JUST FINE when I have it on a mast in a tripod about 15 feet off the ground in my driveway...
> 
> 
> Now, yesterday I mounted it on the chimney of our house, and got absolutely NOTHING...Basically, I gained 25 feet in altitude, got above the tree line, and have a clear shot...but it doesn't work at all, and there was absolutely NO changes to the setup I was running. Can someone explain this one to me?
> 
> 
> Would the galvanized Chimney cap cause that much trouble? It's about 2 feet above this cap.*


 http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html


----------



## blackngold19




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by WILDCAT NATION_
> *I have a Radio Shack Combo UHF/VHF antenna that works JUST FINE when I have it on a mast in a tripod about 15 feet off the ground in my driveway...
> 
> 
> Now, yesterday I mounted it on the chimney of our house, and got absolutely NOTHING...Basically, I gained 25 feet in altitude, got above the tree line, and have a clear shot...but it doesn't work at all, and there was absolutely NO changes to the setup I was running. Can someone explain this one to me?
> 
> 
> Would the galvanized Chimney cap cause that much trouble? It's about 2 feet above this cap.*



I tried my antenna on the roof and it didn't work as good as it does when I have it outside my bedroom window for some reason. You would think higher = better, but with multipath you never know. It all comes down to trial and error. Keep in mind that you gained 25 ft of altitude and 25 ft of cable. A longer run of cable = a weaker signal. You may want to try a preamp or distribution amplifier in conjunction with your antenna. Good Luck...


----------



## WILDCAT NATION

What doesn't make sense to me is that I'm using the exact same length of cable in both setups....


I just tried the driveway makeshift setup again...and it worked perfectly. Only difference is, in the driveway, there are trees, houses, etc...in the way...on the roof, it's pretty much a clear shot.


----------



## blackngold19

Question to anyone:


If I install a distribution amplifier at the antenna is it not serving the same function that a mast mounted pre-amp would?


Thanks in advance,


Blackie


----------



## WILDCAT NATION

Well, I got Pi$$ed and just stuck the mast in the ground...


And, well, it works perfectly... WTF?????????


I'm running the cables through an booster that was being used for Cable, and it seems to be working very well...provides 7dB gain.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by blackngold19_
> *Question to anyone:
> 
> 
> If I install a distribution amplifier at the antenna is it not serving the same function that a mast mounted pre-amp would?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> 
> Blackie*



Distribution amps are typically noisier than preamps and in addition most aren't designed to be placed outside.


Distribution amps typically *are* higher output and less prone to overload than preamps so there might be some instances where they would be preffered. Typically in this case you are in a stronger signal area so then you put it inside at the distribution point to the rest of the house.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by blackngold19_
> 
> Question to anyone:
> 
> If I install a distribution amplifier at the antenna is it not serving the same function that a mast mounted pre-amp would?
> 
> Thanks in advance,



I'll weigh in here and say yes in a general sense: Amplification is amplification and a pre-amp just does it differently IMO. I don't think any hard and fast rules should apply to using pre-amps and dist. amps., but I advocate trial and error instead. Even purchases on online usually can be returned for refund.


As evidence for T&E, I live more than 100 miles from the stations I pull in so I had thought a pre-amp was essential. But all it did was give me no reception, zilch, el zippo. So I went to a CM 3044 dist. amp. and immediately got unbelievable rock solid reception.


----------



## blackngold19

Well I had a Winegard 0405 D. Amp at the receiver for months with success. Only issues I had were the lower powered NBC and WSBK signals flaking out me quite frequently. So I figured I'd put the amp right at the antenna which is right outside my bedroom window and it appears to work much better there. Bumps NBC and WSBK up to the point where they won't unlock on me. My only problem now is I've got to figure out a way to weatherproof the amp. I was thinking of a weatherproof electrical box from Depot, but I couldn't find one that would fit. I might just clear silicone the snot out of it and mount it to the side of my house. I'm going to monitor the improvement over the next few days before I do anything permanent.


----------



## homer1

MAX HD, Here is a pic of my tower, I am hopeing it goes through this time.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by homer1_
> *MAX HD, Here is a pic of my tower, I am hopeing it goes through this time.*




Whoever does the job will have to add a rotor bracket and possibly modify the top of it to hold an antenna mast.Can't see the very top of it too well in the pic.Looks like it's guyed well.


----------



## blackngold19

That's one heck of a tower. Where do you get something like that?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sebenste_
> *I'd like an answer as to which antenna is better for UHF reception
> 
> across the entire band, on average: the Channelmaster 4228
> 
> 8-bay or the AntennasDirect XG-91. I have always been suspicious
> 
> of yagis since the "corner reflectors" couldn't reflect much, just by a look
> 
> at their design.
> 
> 
> ...But, he's trying to get a low-powered DTV station 35 miles away from the tower, and he can't lock it no matter what. He's using a CM 7777 preamp for it, in case he wanted a separate UHF antenna, which he also made room for, just in case.*



I haven't tried the 4228, but I'd put heavy money on the 91XG. It is an amazing antenna.


*However*, if he's really getting *nothing* with one decent UHF antenna (and I'm including the 8200P in this category, as I had one) replacing it with a different antenna is almost certainly not going to work. The difference between the 91XG and the 8200P is hardly subtle - I'm getting more reliable locks of stations that were problematic before, and I'm getting them more often - but the #1 factor in reception is the location of the antenna. If that doesn't change, it's unlikely that any antenna is suddenly going to start getting a station if the 8200P is getting nothing. IOW, the signal just plain isn't there.


When I replaced my 8200P with the 91XG, I did not get a digital lock on any stations that I hadn't gotten a digital lock on before. I suspect your friend would have the same result.


----------



## sebenste

Hello all,


Thanks for the replies. It looks like the XG-91 and 4228 are quite close...

both are better than the 8200P, but if you haven't got signal,

I know no antenna can compensate for that.  Thanks!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Bill Johnson_
> *As evidence for T&E, I live more than 100 miles from the stations I pull in so I had thought a pre-amp was essential. But all it did was give me no reception, zilch, el zippo. So I went to a CM 3044 dist. amp. and immediately got unbelievable rock solid reception.*



Sounds to me like there was a problem with your preamplifier. At that distance, overload and multipath shouldn't be issues, so the only possibilities are 1) hardware failure or 2) incorrect wiring to get DC voltage up the coax to the outdoor unit. Most preamplifiers do not pass a signal if they don't get voltage. Most splitters don't pass DC.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> 
> Sounds to me like there was a problem with your preamplifier. At that distance, overload and multipath shouldn't be issues, so the only possibilities are 1) hardware failure or 2) incorrect wiring to get DC voltage up the coax to the outdoor unit. Most preamplifiers do not pass a signal if they don't get voltage. Most splitters don't pass DC.Sounds to me like there was a problem with your preamplifier. At that distance, overload and multipath shouldn't be issues, so the only possibilities are 1) hardware failure or 2) incorrect wiring to get DC voltage up the coax to the outdoor unit. Most preamplifiers do not pass a signal if they don't get voltage. Most splitters don't pass DC.



Perhaps it was a defective pre-amp since I determined the wiring, cabling, and input setup was exactly correct. I just know the 3044 works perfectly.


----------



## greenmaji

MAX HD

I've tried various UHF antennas and settled on the Quad-X style for best overall performance.


I was wondering what manufacturers produce the Quad-X style antennas?

thanks


----------



## lolowar

I would like to build a 25ft temporary antenna that I could put up on football sunday and take down once I'm done watching the game. I'm currently renting but have my own backyard. I also have a 6 foot fence I could attach a pole to. Any suggest or pointers would be welcome.


----------



## imott




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by lolowar_
> *I would like to build a 25ft temporary antenna that I could put up on football sunday and take down once I'm done watching the game. I'm currently renting but have my own backyard. I also have a 6 foot fence I could attach a pole to. Any suggest or pointers would be welcome.*



Check out the flagpole at Force12 Inc 


I have a 24' freestanding antenna based upon this design. 12' of their 2" thick wall and 12' of their thin wall 3' deep in the ground. And a CM 4221 on top. ROCKS!!!


Their site is a bit confusing(?) but look around, they actually have instructions for putting the hole in the ground that'll hold up this mast.


----------



## lolowar

Thanks but, I'm not looking to spend that kind of money.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Bill Johnson_
> *Perhaps it was a defective pre-amp since I determined the wiring, cabling, and input setup was exactly correct. I just know the 3044 works perfectly.*



What was the preamp you were using? Maybe it was overloaded by the 568Kw signal of WVPT which is likely a few miles away?


I envy the knob where you live.At 1800ft+ ASL you're in DX paradise with the Staunton locals notched out


----------



## imott




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by lolowar_
> *Thanks but, I'm not looking to spend that kind of money.*



What's your budget...This only cost me about $100 plus 1 sack of concrete and a bucket of sweat.


----------



## lolowar

That doesn't sound so bad. Not my property so I would have to do without the concrete.


----------



## rdwalt

Go to Lowes and buy 2 - 10' antenna tube masts ~ $15 ea. and 1 - 5' ~ $8 and some guy wire.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by lolowar_
> *I would like to build a 25ft temporary antenna that I could put up on football sunday and take down once I'm done watching the game. I'm currently renting but have my own backyard. I also have a 6 foot fence I could attach a pole to. Any suggest or pointers would be welcome.*



I think you're going to be very limited in what you can do. The problem is wind load and torque. You'd probably destroy a wood fence if you attached a 25' pole to it, once a breeze kicked up. That said, if you want to try something, this is what I'd try...


If you have enough ground space to lower it, Radio Shack sells telescoping masts. They raise up without problems, but to lower it again, you'd have to climb up it a way to undo the locking mechanisms. I'd attach a *small* UHF antenna to the top, no bigger than a 4-bay bowtie (2 would be better.) Look into AntennasDirect's DB2. Then I'd tie that thing as strong as I could (bungee cords strectched to max might work) to a post in your fence. Then I'd pray that the force of the wind didn't destroy it.


I am not making any promises that this won't destroy property. You have to know that what you're doing is at your own risk and is highly prone to problems.


----------



## imott




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by lolowar_
> *That doesn't sound so bad. Not my property so I would have to do without the concrete.*



Not my property either! I just left the concrete 2" below the surface and covered it with dirt. When I finally leave the apartment, I will pull the pole out and fill in the hole! See ya! This is so sturdy, I can leave it up all the time if I choose (the manager does not show up in my backyard too often)!


i


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Max HD_
> 
> What was the preamp you were using? Maybe it was overloaded by the 568Kw signal of WVPT which is likely a few miles away?
> 
> 
> I envy the knob where you live. At 1800ft+ ASL you're in DX paradise with the Staunton locals notched out.



It's a CM 7777 and overloading's also a possibility since I have LOS to the WVPT antenna about 8 miles away on 4500 ft. Eliott Knob. I even receive a very strong signal from their digital transmitter at only 3 kW.


Notwithstanding my great elevation, I'm simply mystified at how I'm receiving such strong digital reception of about 10 or so stations at such incredible distances with mountains in between.


----------



## NightHawk




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Bill Johnson_
> *Notwithstanding my great elevation, I'm simply mystified at how I'm receiving such strong digital reception of about 10 or so stations at such incredible distances with mountains in between.*



With a transmitter antenna at 1000 feet and you at 1800 feet the radio horizon is calculated at around 105 miles. Critical for UHF reception. Someone half as far, say 50 miles, has only 6 dB more signal, and if they are at sea level, they need at least a 20 foot mast to get anything at all. The numbers are approximate but you can see that the drop in signal level between 50 and 100 miles is a whole lot less than between 0 and 50 miles.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by NightHawk_
> 
> With a transmitter antenna at 1000 feet and you at 1800 feet the radio horizon is calculated at around 105 miles. Critical for UHF reception. Someone half as far, say 50 miles, has only 6 dB more signal, and if they are at sea level, they need at least a 20 foot mast to get anything at all. The numbers are approximate but you can see that the drop in signal level between 50 and 100 miles is a whole lot less than between 0 and 50 miles.



Thanks NightHawk for lucidly explaining something that up till now made no sense to me for more than a year and a half. The only other thing I'm still wondering about is how the Blue Ridge Mtns. factor in since I've drawn a line between me and the DC towers on a topo map. And where it crosses the mtns. has to be around 3000 ft. and maybe higher. Weird! My amazing Richmond reception I now can fully understand with your explanation, plus a gap near Afton Mtn.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Bill Johnson_
> *The only other thing I'm still wondering about is how the Blue Ridge Mtns. factor in since I've drawn a line between me and the DC towers on a topo map. And where it crosses the mtns. has to be around 3000 ft. and maybe higher.*



This is probably knife-edge refraction, a phenomenon where the signals bend over a sharp object like a mountaintop. People near the mountains may get nothing as the bending "shoots over" them, but as you get some distance between you and the mountain, the signals can be very strong.


No doubt it helps that you don't have co-channel interference.


----------



## lolowar

I have a chain link fence. About 6 feet tall.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> 
> This is probably knife-edge refraction, a phenomenon where the signals bend over a sharp object like a mountaintop. People near the mountains may get nothing as the bending "shoots over" them, but as you get some distance between you and the mountain, the signals can be very strong.



I've heard it also called knife-edge diffraction, but in any event there may be no other explanation. The only thing here is that the leaf effect should kick in in the summer time to worsen reception to some degree, but I'm just as rock solid then as the other months of the year. So I don't know.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by greenmaji_
> *
> 
> 
> I was wondering what manufacturers produce the Quad-X style antennas?
> 
> thanks*



There are several manufacturers around the world,but none here in the states.Several different brands can be purchased from the UK through www.cpc.co.uk


----------



## mainemojo

I bought a Zenith Silver Sensor to try to pull in the one local HD channel my cableco doesn't deliver. Antennaweb says I'm 24.2 miles from the tower (antenna type: red). I thought I'd take a shot, since I have a $60 portable TV with rabbit ears that pulls in UHF stations without problems. But I get worse reception on my big-bucks HDTV with the Silver Sensor. In fact, the antenna picks up VHF signals, but doesn't get any HD signals. And to add to the confusion, the only UHF signals it gets are non-digital and on frequencies that don't match the channel assignments: 35 tunes in at 86, 51 at 107, 23 at 74. Is there an explanation for all of this? Other than buying an outdoor antenna, is there something else I should be doing to be sure the Silver Sensor isn't useless?


----------



## 4DHD

To pickup digital signals the antenna has to be pointing right at the tower, unlike analog signals, where you only have to be 'close'. Also it REALLY helps if there is no mountains or tall buildings in the digital signal path.


Remember, the bigger the screen, the more signal you need. You might try an antenna inline amplifier.

You can also call the station to ask what they are sending as far as power(watts). I found out that one of my local digital station's output was only 500 watts. And that is not enough, even though I have a direct line of sight to the antenna, 21 miles away. I was told that they were going to put up their full power antenna in the spring, when they can get to the top of the mountain.


----------



## Rack




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mainemojo_
> *And to add to the confusion, the only UHF signals it gets are non-digital and on frequencies that don't match the channel assignments: 35 tunes in at 86, 51 at 107, 23 at 74. Is there an explanation for all of this?*



Sounds like you're scanning the IRC or HRC cable frequency mappings with your OTA antenna. You might have better luck if you switch the mapping to OTA or Standard.

Oh yeah, one more thing. Does your HDTV have an ATSC tuner?


----------



## COEX-Pilot




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mainemojo_
> *I bought a Zenith Silver Sensor to try to pull in the one local HD channel my cableco doesn't deliver. Antennaweb says I'm 24.2 miles from the tower (antenna type: red). I I should be doing to be sure the Silver Sensor isn't useless?*



Something is definately not right with your setup!


I had a SS antenna and picked up almost all the HD stations and I'm 25 miles from the closest one and there are some hills in between! Being that there were also trees in the way, I switched to CM but the SS did work great.


Check your installation, tuner, etc. That little SS is one great antenna!


----------



## MartinK

I have: Silver Sensor >> 6ft cable >> HDTV wonder, spotty reception (dropouts) on some channels

Weak signal >>> Added: Channelmaster 7775 preamp

Result >> same signal with preamp powered on or powered off


Am I doing something wrong here? How do I know the preamp is working? Did I waste $50 on a device I don't need?


Thanks


----------



## blackngold19




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by MartinK_
> *I have: Silver Sensor >> 6ft cable >> HDTV wonder, spotty reception (dropouts) on some channels
> 
> Weak signal >>> Added: Channelmaster 7775 preamp
> 
> Result >> same signal with preamp powered on or powered off
> 
> 
> Am I doing something wrong here? How do I know the preamp is working? Did I waste $50 on a device I don't need?
> 
> 
> Thanks*



How many miles are you from the farm? If you try to amplify a weak signal that is multipathing, you are not likely to solve the problem by amplifying what the SS is picking up. You will need to move the SS around the house to try to find a "hot spot", or even better, place a small antenna outside somewhere. I'd always go outside first before I use a preamp, but if you cant go outside, try a Square Shooter near a window facing the antenna farm. The Square Shooter has better gain and wouldn't really look too bad mounted inside somewhere. The Silver Sensor is what it is. Pound for Pound, it's probably one of the better indoor antenna solutions, but if you have to go through walls and windows, you are really asking alot of that antenna, especially at a distance greater than 20 miles. Also, the Silver Sensor is very directional. Make sure it is aimed directly at the antenna farms. Even if that means pointing it directly through the wall. Good Luck!!!


----------



## DreAmingDigITal

Hello everyone!....I live in Salem, Va (which is about 8 miles from the local broadcast towers) and I have a question for the pros here. I bought a Terk TV55 antenna from Best Buy, because I wanted to pick up HD channed over the air. Well I hooked it up and got a very weak signal, the picture was cutting in and out sometimes freezing up. I was told in my Local Forum that this antenna was basically junk







. So I want some suggestions on what to buy that will work better. Is there anything that is fairly compact that is a very good antenna?? My girlfriend will kill me if I put up a large antenna







. Thanks for your help!!


----------



## blackngold19




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by DreAmingDigITal_
> *Hello everyone!....I live in Salem, Va (which is about 8 miles from the local broadcast towers) and I have a question for the pros here. I bought a Terk TV55 antenna from Best Buy, because I wanted to pick up HD channed over the air. Well I hooked it up and got a very weak signal, the picture was cutting in and out sometimes freezing up. I was told in my Local Forum that this antenna was basically junk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . So I want some suggestions on what to buy that will work better. Is there anything that is fairly compact that is a very good antenna?? My girlfriend will kill me if I put up a large antenna
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Thanks for your help!!*



The antennas direct DB4 is has excellent gain for it's size, 29" x 16". I'f you more concerned with aesthetics, you may want to look into the Winegard Square Shooter. The gain isn't as good as the DB4, but it will be close, and it looks like a square DBS Dish. I tried both antennas, and the DB4 outperformed the Square Shooter by a good margin. Go to www.antennasdirect.com for more info on the DB4. The Square Shooter can be found a www.solidsignal.com. 


Best Buy does carry the the Square Shooter in a TERK Box, but it's overpriced at 150.00. You can find it online for around 100.00. Actually, I just looked at your antenna farms and it looks like you may need a UHF/VHF combo antenna, so the DB4 won't work for you for VHF. Anyways, go check out antennas direct. They do have some combos there that will work for you. As for the Square Shooter, I've posted in here that it's UHF only, and people have said it will work for VHF, but I don't see it listed in the specs that it will handle VHF. At your range, you could try the Winegard Stealthtenna for around 40.00. That's the antenna that VOOM gives away for OTA installs. That should be enough at your range unless you live in a hole somewhere. Good Luck!!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mainemojo_
> *I thought I'd take a shot, since I have a $60 portable TV with rabbit ears that pulls in UHF stations without problems. But I get worse reception on my big-bucks HDTV with the Silver Sensor. In fact, the antenna picks up VHF signals, but doesn't get any HD signals. And to add to the confusion, the only UHF signals it gets are non-digital and on frequencies that don't match the channel assignments: 35 tunes in at 86, 51 at 107, 23 at 74. Is there an explanation for all of this? Other than buying an outdoor antenna, is there something else I should be doing to be sure the Silver Sensor isn't useless?*



First of all, if the analog stations are tuning at odd numbers, the odds are good you have your RF input set to cable rather than antenna. Cable uses the frequencies between 13 and 14 that are not allocated for broadcast television.


Secondly, have you taken your $60 portable TV down to where your HDTV set is and compared the reception? Keep in mind that your HDTV is probably larger, so picture flaws will be more obvious. I used to have a 46" projection set and pictures that looked good in the PiP window looked horrible full-screen. Check that portable set's picture *real* close. I'll bet, with similar placement of antennas, it looks just as bad.


Finally, if you're not getting anything on digital channels, the odds are very good you bought an "HDTV Monitor." These do not have a digital tuner to receive signals over-the-air. They need an external tuner (which is what your HD digital cable box is) of some sort. A cable tuner won't receive over-the-air signals, though a DirecTV/Dish/Voom box will. There are also tuners that only receive over-the-air signals.


The Silver Sensor isn't useless, but it's also not a "red" antenna. Try locating it as high and as close to the outer wall that points in the direction of the towers as possible.


----------



## DreAmingDigITal




> Quote:
> The antennas direct DB4 is has excellent gain for it's size, 29" x 16". I'f you more concerned with aesthetics, you may want to look into the Winegard Square Shooter. The gain isn't as good as the DB4, but it will be close, and it looks like a square DBS Dish. I tried both antennas, and the DB4 outperformed the Square Shooter by a good margin. Go to antennasdirect for more info on the DB4. The Square Shooter can be found at solidsignal
> 
> 
> Best Buy does carry the the Square Shooter in a TERK Box, but it's overpriced at 150.00. You can find it online for around 100.00. Actually, I just looked at your antenna farms and it looks like you may need a UHF/VHF combo antenna, so the DB4 won't work for you for VHF. Anyways, go check out antennas direct. They do have some combos there that will work for you. As for the Square Shooter, I've posted in here that it's UHF only, and people have said it will work for VHF, but I don't see it listed in the specs that it will handle VHF. At your range, you could try the Winegard Stealthtenna for around 40.00. That's the antenna that VOOM gives away for OTA installs. That should be enough at your range unless you live in a hole somewhere. Good Luck!!



Alright, Well I just checked antennasweb and it is telling me that all of my local channels (Digital Stations Only) are broadcast in UHF, except for one (PBS, which I don't watch). So maybe the DB4 or SquareShooter will be good for me. So, I just have one more question......I will have to run about 100ft of cable to hook the antenna up, will this cause a loss in the signal strength? How can I avoid this? Also, do you recommend any type of cable to use to minimize this? You'll have to excuse my ignorance, I'm very new to all of this







.


----------



## imott




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by 4DHD_
> *Remember, the bigger the screen, the more signal you need.*



Huh? I don't think so! The receiver has a sensitivity level at it's input. Once the signal recieved from the antenna reaches this level, the receiver then processes the signal and sends it to the rest of the component that scale the image to fit the screen. The size of the TV screen has nothing to do with how much signal is required to fill it!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by DreAmingDigITal_
> *I will have to run about 100ft of cable to hook the antenna up, will this cause a loss in the signal strength? How can I avoid this? Also, do you recommend any type of cable to use to minimize this?*



There will be some signal loss due to the length of the cable, but given your distance (20 miles or so) I suspect it won't be a big problem. Use RG-6 (common) or RG-11 (hard to work with, uncommon) cable, and try to get shielded cabling. These cables have a wider center connector than RG-59 (the most common antenna cabling) and thus lose less signal over the distance.


For those with extreme cable loss issues, a preamplifier, which has a box that attaches right next to the antenna and another that supplies the power through the coax from an indoor location, can compensate for cable loss. It does this by boosting the signal at the antenna, before the line loss, such that the signal loss in the cable reduces a stronger, rather than a weaker, signal. That increases the odds that signal-to-noise ratios will still be good at the receiver. However, preamplifiers usually cause problems when used too close to broadcast towers, as they overload and boost reflections (also called multipath or ghosting.) A 20 mile minimum distance is recommended.


----------



## fay28301

Hi you-all, this is my 1st. time posting, long time reader though, so I hope I am in the right place for this post. Getting to the point--I am wondering where I could find a Channel Master 4251 UHF antenna. For sheer gain, it was the best one ever made. They quit making them about 5 yrs ago, so I figured there may be one laying around in a warehouse somewhere that someone may know about.

Also, if I may make a suggestion to whoever uses any length of cable (over 100ft.) with a preamp, try to use RG-11 if you can, not because of signal loss, but because of voltage loss, as the voltage that the preamp uses is so small that smaller cables lose enough to make a difference in picture quality. This has been my personal experience with the difference cables and preamps.

fay28301


----------



## Inundated




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by blackngold19_
> *Best Buy does carry the the Square Shooter in a TERK Box, but it's overpriced at 150.00. You can find it online for around 100.00. Actually, I just looked at your antenna farms and it looks like you may need a UHF/VHF combo antenna, so the DB4 won't work for you for VHF. Anyways, go check out antennas direct. They do have some combos there that will work for you. As for the Square Shooter, I've posted in here that it's UHF only, and people have said it will work for VHF, but I don't see it listed in the specs that it will handle VHF. At your range, you could try the Winegard Stealthtenna for around 40.00. That's the antenna that VOOM gives away for OTA installs. That should be enough at your range unless you live in a hole somewhere. Good Luck!!*



A few things to clear up for this person:


* The only VHF DT in his market (Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA) is the PBS affiliate, WBRA/15 (DT 3). If he doesn't care about PBS, he won't need a VHF antenna. And yes, that station is a low-VHF, which will be difficult for him to get in the FIRST place.


* The Roanoke/Lynchburg market is chock full of hills and mountainous terrain. In theory, he's almost next door to most of the major towers in the market (on a nearby mountain called Poor Mountain) and HD reception shouldn't be THAT difficult. But he could have terrain issues - i.e. hills or even mountains in the way - that could shadow him from those signals and be causing multipath. In particular, on the local market thread, he reported occasional breakups on WDBJ-DT, which is a full-strength signal at that antenna farm 8 miles away from him. That could just be his crummy antenna, and a new antenna placed up higher could fix that easily.


* The SquareShooter, et al., should work fine with powerful-enough high-VHF signals, even though they're designed for UHF. But as noted, the only VHF DT in his market is DT 3 (WBRA/PBS), which means it wouldn't work no matter what. If he really wanted digital PBS, he'd have to work in a VHF antenna somehow...people talk about how to do that earlier in this thread. If he doesn't care about PBS, it's a lot easier.


----------



## BrettStah

Question about using two directional atennas at the same time...


First, I have one station that is almost 180 degrees opposite all of the other stations. According to someone who lives nearby, it's possible to pick up this one station with a Silver Sensor, and when he turns it around he can pick up the other stations. However, that's not a great solution for someone with a HD-DVR, so I thought about the possibility of gettings the following. Would it most likely work?


2 Silver Sensors

3 coax cables, at least 2 of them of the same length

1 Combiner/Splitter


Then I'd point the Silver Sensors in opposite directions, feed their outputs into the combiner/splitter, and then run the output of that into my HD-Tivo. I'm pretty sure I've read about this in the past, so hopefully it would do the trick.


----------



## elsalvador69

I just bought the Terk indoor antenna, and am running it through my Dish receiver. Is there a better indoor antenna that will reach beyond 35 miles?

Mine pretty much picks up all the channels, except Kens DT; but I have to readjust the position of the antenna everytime I go to a new OTA channel.


----------



## MartinK




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by blackngold19_
> 
> If you try to amplify a weak signal that is multipathing, you are not likely to solve the problem by amplifying what the SS is picking up.



Alright! I was hoping to avoid the outdoors antenna, but that'll be next. With the preamp at least I won't have to worry about able length


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by BrettStah_
> *Question about using two directional atennas at the same time...
> 
> 
> First, I have one station that is almost 180 degrees opposite all of the other stations. According to someone who lives nearby, it's possible to pick up this one station with a Silver Sensor, and when he turns it around he can pick up the other stations. However, that's not a great solution for someone with a HD-DVR, so I thought about the possibility of gettings the following. Would it most likely work?
> 
> 
> 2 Silver Sensors
> 
> 3 coax cables, at least 2 of them of the same length
> 
> 1 Combiner/Splitter
> 
> 
> Then I'd point the Silver Sensors in opposite directions, feed their outputs into the combiner/splitter, and then run the output of that into my HD-Tivo. I'm pretty sure I've read about this in the past, so hopefully it would do the trick.*



If you try this it would be a good idea to get the antennas from somwhere you can return them 'cause it probably won't work. The mulipath created by combining two antennas aimed differently without some sort of filtering will likely kill all or most of your signals.


You have two other options. If you're lucky, the one off-axis station is your only VHF station. In that case, it's easy to diplex the two antennas with a VHF/UHF diplexer (CM 0549, Pico makes one too).
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm 
http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf 


If not, then you'll either need the CM Jointenna http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm to join the two

or a bidirectional antenna. The RS 15-1880 might be bidirectional enough.


----------



## BrettStah

Thanks for the feedback, cpcat. Unfortunately that lonely channel is not VHF. I'll probably stop by Radio Shack and pick up that 15-1880 antenna to try first, before ordering the two Silver Sensors.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by BrettStah_
> *Question about using two directional atennas at the same time...
> *



I know I've answered this question in this thread at least a dozen times already. In fact, it's such a common question that I can't believe it's not in the FAQ.


You *cannot* take two antennas designed to receive the same frequencies, aim them in different directions, connect them using a simple splitter/combiner and expect to get good results.


If you have a 2-3 channel "buffer" on each side of the one "off-axis" station, you can use a Channel Master Jointenna for that frequency to combine two antennas. If you have 2 or more channels in both directions, of if channel numbers are adjacent, more expensive and complicated filtering solutions are required.


Exception: If your stations are 180 degrees apart, purchasing a multi-bowtie antenna (DB2, DB4, DB8, CM 4228, etc.) and removing the screen *might* work. Then again, it opens you up to greater multipath and reduces the gain of your antenna by 3db, so it might totally screw up the stations you were getting just fine before.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by elsalvador69_
> *I just bought the Terk indoor antenna, and am running it through my Dish receiver. Is there a better indoor antenna that will reach beyond 35 miles?
> 
> Mine pretty much picks up all the channels, except Kens DT; but I have to readjust the position of the antenna everytime I go to a new OTA channel.*



You're doing pretty good for an indoor antenna. 35 miles is beyond the reliable capabilities for indoor antennas. Assuming you have the Zenith Silver Sensor look-alike from Terk, you probably would have to go outside (or significantly change the location of your current antenna) to get better results. You also could try a DB2, or try something larger in an attic area.


----------



## j-bo




> Quote:
> PBS, which I don't watch



That's what I USED to say too.


But PBS in HD is so great, that I've learned a lot about a lot of different stuff in the last few weeks, ONLY because the picture was so great, I stay tuned and got interested in the HD programming that they produce.


Very interesting stuff, and my kids have "learnt sumthin' " now!


----------



## BrettStah




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *I know I've answered this question in this thread at least a dozen times already. In fact, it's such a common question that I can't believe it's not in the FAQ.
> 
> 
> You *cannot* take two antennas designed to receive the same frequencies, aim them in different directions, connect them using a simple splitter/combiner and expect to get good results.
> 
> 
> If you have a 2-3 channel "buffer" on each side of the one "off-axis" station, you can use a Channel Master Jointenna for that frequency to combine two antennas. If you have 2 or more channels in both directions, of if channel numbers are adjacent, more expensive and complicated filtering solutions are required.
> 
> 
> Exception: If your stations are 180 degrees apart, purchasing a multi-bowtie antenna (DB2, DB4, DB8, CM 4228, etc.) and removing the screen *might* work. Then again, it opens you up to greater multipath and reduces the gain of your antenna by 3db, so it might totally screw up the stations you were getting just fine before.*



Thanks for answering it again... I did search, but came up with nothing. But I did vaguely recall discussion of it. I asked this question over on the tivo forums after I hadn't seen a response over here this morning to it, and someone from Atlanta (I think) says he actually has this exact setup working, but as you say it's probably more likely than not that it'd cause problems.


I plan on trying a bidirectional antenna first, and if that fails, I'm going to order two Silver Sensors. If they don't work together well, I'll order a jointenna. Luckily, it's only one channel over there, so the more complicated/expensive solutions hopefully won't be needed.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by BrettStah_
> *I asked this question over on the tivo forums after I hadn't seen a response over here this morning to it, and someone from Atlanta (I think) says he actually has this exact setup working, but as you say it's probably more likely than not that it'd cause problems.
> *



Atlanta has UHF and VHF digitals. He may be combining one of each type for his digital reception and getting good results.


Note that I didn't say that it can't work. I just said you can't expect it to. The odds are strongly against you.


----------



## rdwalt




> Quote:
> *PBS, which I don't watch...*





> Quote:
> _Originally posted by j-bo_
> *That's what I USED to say too.
> 
> 
> But PBS in HD is so great, that I've learned a lot about a lot of different stuff in the last few weeks, ONLY because the picture was so great, I stay tuned and got interested in the HD programming that they produce.
> 
> 
> Very interesting stuff, and my kids have "learnt sumthin' " now!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



I'm a convert as well! I think I've watched _From Orphan to King (The Story of Kusasi the Orangutan)_ three times now! And the story about the Alaskan Canadian Highway was good too!


----------



## fmx

I plan on connecting a 4228 and a 7-13 VHF yagi in my attic. I will run RG6 from the baluns to a UHF/VHF combiner and then down to my reciever. Are the lengths of RG6 from the UHF and VHF antenna to the combiner critical?


----------



## foxeng




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by fmx_
> *I plan on connecting a 4228 and a 7-13 VHF yagi in my attic. I will run RG6 from the baluns to a UHF/VHF combiner and then down to my reciever. Are the lengths of RG6 from the UHF and VHF antenna to the combiner critical?*



I have always had better performance in a combined situation when the lengths were equal. I am doing this now.


----------



## Rack




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by foxeng_
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Is that a VIP-307SR I see there?


----------



## Nitewatchman

See if anyone can guess what this one is(the larger VHF antenna in attached pic) ...


I was thinking about the VIP307SR, but I got this "slightly" used VHF antenna for free ... Hint: they don't make it anymore, 200" boom ...


----------



## Rack

 http://www.lashen.com/vendors/winega...as.asp#ca-5254 

That's my best guess, Nitewatchman.


----------



## Nitewatchman

Rack,


Ding ding ding! I'm impressed ... That's pretty close+must be the newer version of it(I didn't know there was one!) ... It's a Winegard C?-5200 ... I have 2 spec sheets from the fellow I got it from, one says CS-5200, the other says CH-5200, specs are the same on both, don't know what the difference is ... the fellow originally told me in his email it was a Winegard CM-5200, but I expect that may have been a typo ... Here's some of the "claimed" specs from the winegard spec sheet :


ch 2 - 6.3dbd gain, 64 deg beamwidth at 1/2 power points, 20db F/B ratio

ch 6 - 8.0dbd gain, 56 deg beamwidth , 20db f/b ratio

ch 7 - 11.8dbd gain, 40 deg beamwidth, 20db f/b ratio

ch 13 - 11.8dbd gain, 30 deg beamwidth, 20db f/b ratio


200" boom, 14.5lbs ... 39 elements(i'm trying to figure out how they get that number, as I don't "count" quite that many but it looks just like the pic in their spec sheets) .... max width 108", turning radius 110" ... Anodized Aluminum finish, element diameter 7/16" .. Element "material" .025 38000PSI(whatever that means) ....


It has 300ohm hardline running about 1/8" above+below the boom that connect active elements(and a couple of the passive directors) together ...


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by fay28301_
> *Hi you-all, this is my 1st. time posting, long time reader though, so I hope I am in the right place for this post. Getting to the point--I am wondering where I could find a Channel Master 4251 UHF antenna. For sheer gain, it was the best one ever made. They quit making them about 5 yrs ago, so I figured there may be one laying around in a warehouse somewhere that someone may know about.
> 
> Also, if I may make a suggestion to whoever uses any length of cable (over 100ft.) with a preamp, try to use RG-11 if you can, not because of signal loss, but because of voltage loss, as the voltage that the preamp uses is so small that smaller cables lose enough to make a difference in picture quality. This has been my personal experience with the difference cables and preamps.
> 
> fay28301*



If anyone has one of these it would be Rich Wertman in Lockport,NY.He posts on this forum as rwantennasat.Here's a link to one of his post's that has his email addy....

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...postid=4872709 


He also sells RG-11 on the cheap and will install the F-connectors free of charge(in lengths of 100ft,or more).


Why do you need a 4251? Just curious.


----------



## greenmaji

Couldn't someone use a Attenuator to keep there signal from overloading from a close transmision? Just wondering.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by foxeng_
> *I have always had better performance in a combined situation when the lengths were equal. I am doing this now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



This shouldn't matter if one antenna is for vhf and the other is for uhf. I'm assuming you're diplexing them, so the signals aren't really "combining", anyway.


Identical cable lengths are only necessary if combining two indentical antennas i.e. "stacking" for increased gain, narrower beamwidth, etc.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by fmx_
> *I plan on connecting a 4228 and a 7-13 VHF yagi in my attic. I will run RG6 from the baluns to a UHF/VHF combiner and then down to my reciever. Are the lengths of RG6 from the UHF and VHF antenna to the combiner critical?*



No. The UHF/VHF diplexer filters out the uhf signals from the vhf antenna and vice versa for the uhf antenna to prevent multipath from distorting both signals. The relative lengths of cable before the diplexer won't matter. This is only critical when phasing two identical antennas together in a stacked configuration for increased gain, narrow beamwidth, etc.


----------



## Afergy

I'm trying to receive OTA HD signal and was told that the Terk TV55 antenna would work. I've tried the Terk TV44 and get NO signal.


I have Dish Network and the signal source is roughly 42 miles away. The Terk TV 55 does not say how far away the signal can be picked up. Does anyone know the capabilities i.e. miles of the 55? Or has anyone had a positive experience with this antenna.


Or can anyone recommend an OTA antenna that doesn't have to be mounted to the roof?


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by greenmaji_
> *Couldn't someone use a Attenuator to keep there signal from overloading from a close transmision? Just wondering.*



Yes ... hopefully someone getting such strong signals isn't using a preamp, however -- unless they are knocking down/trapping out any super strong signals before they reach the preamp - most preamps have a FM trap(usually switchable) for FM broadcast band frequencies for this very reason - Also -- Since most preamps are very broadband, ANY nearby strong signals, not Just TV signals can overload them ...


I'd think it's probably pretty unlikely in most cases that a strong signal would overload the front-end of TV/DTV receiver if a preamp isn't used, at least I hope Its unlikely ... I do know it's sometimes easy to overload FM receivers to the point of "desensitizing" the reciever to weaker signals .....


There is an interesting article(it's quite "technical" however, but at one point discusses where an attenuator could be useful) that somewhat relates to our discussion here: http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...02-16-05.shtml 


If perchance, someone is using a preamp in a strong signal area, the place to put the atteunator would be in the line before the preamp ... Of course, that probably mostly defeat the purpose of the preamp, but it's a way to keep the preamp from being overloaded by strong signals and creating intermodulation distortion(i.e. extra "noise") ...


An adjustable attenuator(RS has one) may especially be a useful tool in some circumstances ...


----------



## dswallow

Ideally the overpowered channel wouldn't be adjacent to anything you cared about and you'd attenuate just the frequnecy range of the offending channel prior to the preamp.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dswallow_
> *Ideally the overpowered channel wouldn't be adjacent to anything you cared about and you'd attenuate just the frequnecy range of the offending channel prior to the preamp.*



In which case a notch trap is required.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Afergy_
> *I'm trying to receive OTA HD signal and was told that the Terk TV55 antenna would work. I've tried the Terk TV44 and get NO signal.
> 
> 
> I have Dish Network and the signal source is roughly 42 miles away. The Terk TV 55 does not say how far away the signal can be picked up. Does anyone know the capabilities i.e. miles of the 55? Or has anyone had a positive experience with this antenna.
> 
> 
> Or can anyone recommend an OTA antenna that doesn't have to be mounted to the roof?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



At 55 miles you going to need to go outside for reliable signal. The Channel Master 4228 antennas Direct DB8 or 91xg are some of the best antennas for digital signals at that distance. These are UHF only and we need your zip to know if you also need a VHF or a combo antenna. If you have access to your attic you may be able to put an antenna in the attic but attic munts may or may not work for the efficency of the antenna is reduced greatly. You may stand an outside chance with a Squareshooter from Winegard but at 45 miles is the extreme end for it. Get back with your zip and we'll see if someone can give you more help.
http://www.antennasdirect.com/LongRangeAntennas.htm 
http://www.solidsignal.com/antennas/ 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...=&PROD=SS-1000


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Afergy_
> *I have Dish Network and the signal source is roughly 42 miles away. The Terk TV 55 does not say how far away the signal can be picked up. Does anyone know the capabilities i.e. miles of the 55? Or has anyone had a positive experience with this antenna.
> 
> 
> Or can anyone recommend an OTA antenna that doesn't have to be mounted to the roof?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



The problem with any mile rating is that it's arbitrary. For instance, you can have an antenna that is rated for 100 mile reception and stick it inside a sealed metal container and get nothing at 1 mile. Or you can get one that is supposed to get a signal for 15 miles and, placed on the top of a tower that has line-of-sight, get a signal from 100 miles away.


There is no such thing as "average terrain." Every situation is different and every antenna style will perform differently.


That said, there are general rules that antennas and antenna design follow. The Terks (TV 44 and 55) are typically underperformers, especially for the price. Their design (a folded dipole) is *okay* for VHF, and usually attrocious for UHF. Since most digitals are UHF, you've got two strikes against you before you even start.


Since you bought an antenna that clips onto a dish, you probably already have a dish up. An antenna that looks similar to a dish is the Winegard Square Shooter. It's a stretch to work at 45 miles, but it's far better than the Terk. You *might* get something.


Still, at that kind of range, I'd avoid the "gimicky" antennas and get a real solid performer and put it on your rooftop. Look for a minimum of 10db gain, and 18db front-to-back ratio. If you can't find stats for gain and f/b ratio, the antenna is probably junk.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by fmx_
> *I plan on connecting a 4228 and a 7-13 VHF yagi in my attic. I will run RG6 from the baluns to a UHF/VHF combiner and then down to my reciever. Are the lengths of RG6 from the UHF and VHF antenna to the combiner critical?*



If you're using a UHF/VHF combiner (one with inputs labled UHF and VHF) the lengths shouldn't matter. If you're using a simple splitter as your combiner, the length is critical, but identical might not be the proper length. That's because the signals would need to be "in phase." Unless the active elements lined up precisely on the vertical plane, identical lengths would probably not be in phase at all.


I strongly recommend using a CM#0549 or similar (Channel Master preamps with separate inputs for UHF and VHF have the same electronics for filtering) when combining a VHF and UHF antenna. Although each antenna shouldn't get much on the other's frequency, they get enough that it could conflict in weak signal situations. I get hi-VHF with my UHF-only antenna, and even a little on lo-VHF. Better to filter that out and get a clean signal from one source than to risk mixing two.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dswallow_
> *
> 
> You'd attenuate just the frequnecy range of the offending channel prior to the preamp.
> *



Absolutely - Ideally, that is what you want to do ...



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *In which case a notch trap is required.*



You probably wouldn't want to use one of those however on the antenna system you need to use if you want to actually receive the "strong signal" involved ...


I use 6 different channel traps/notch filters here(One is a Blonder-Tongue MWT-3 - tunable notch filter for 174~216MHZ(ch 7-13) - can do about a -60db deep notch) prior to preamp to knock down strong nearby analog signals to keep preamp from overloading on my "hi-gain" antenna setup, and to improve the "situation" concerning receiving signals(generally "DX" stations) on 1st adjacent channels to those stations ...


But, I use a different antenna altogether in order to get useable signals from the channels/stations I'm trapping out on the other antenna setup...


Also, the notch filters such as B-T MWT series are designed to trap out a fairly "narrow" portion of the 6MHZ "slice" TV stations use. This works well with NTSC signals, because most of a NTSC analog station's "power" is concentrated in relatively narrow portions of the 6MHZ channel, on the audio/video and color burst carriers. The ATSC 8VSB signal, on the other hand, (except for a bit of a "spike" where the 8VSB pilot resides) pretty evenly uses the entire 6MHZ slice of RF bandwidth, and therefore I'm not sure how beneficial a trap such as a MWT would be to knock down a ATSC signal. If I recall correctly, the MWT effects at most about a 2MHZ slice of bandwidth. I did however, try tuning my MWT-3 to knock down a strong local digital on 10, and as far as the receiver's "signal quality meter" is concerned, it "looked like" I got rid of the station completely so I expect it might help to some extent, but I would still expect much of the signal(which just looks like "noise" on a NTSC receiver) was probably still getting through to the preamp ....


Another thing about a notch filter such as MWT-3 ... They are VERY sensitive, and it's best to use a spectrum analyzer or a signal meter(for analog) to tune them -- although you can do "seat of pants" tuning by seeing the "effect" they have on analog signals you're trying to trap out, and any weak signals that might be present on 1st adjacent channels - you'll probably need a "non screen muting" analog TV for this. I think I have mine set fairly close using that method, but it's hard to say for sure if they are as "effective" as would be the case If I set them with a spectrum analyzer or signal meter.


The B-T MWT series are very good filters, and they cost about $250 each, unless you can get lucky a find a good deal, or find them used/etc ....I'm not sure many people are going to want to pay that much at this point to knock down NTSC signals which will of course be gone after analog shut off. Winegard offers a inexpensive tunable UHF channel trap which works well - the UT2700 - I use one of these - details available on it on their website), and they used to make a TRT "HI-Q" series of tunable traps(I use 4 of these - 3 TRT LO's for lo-VHF tuned for ch 2, 1 TRT hi for Hi-VHF tuned for ch 7) for VHF, but I don't think they make them anymore .... The TRT series of traps each do about a -12.5db notch, and affect 2MHZ wide bandwidth. The UT2700 UHF channel trap has 2 sides -- each can be set for a "different" channel, or you can set them both to knock down one channel(or audio/video carrier from one channel), each side can do about a -8db notch that affects approx 2MHZ bandwidth.


I don't know if they even make a filter/channel trap "designed" for ATSC signals yet, I'm sure someone has some info. A "jointenna" seems like it would work in some circumstances. It is also possible to make 1/4 wave coax stub filter which will do about a 20db notch, although in my experiments with those they'll also likely delitioursly effect a bit wider "slice" than 6MHZ -- And, you have to be careful because harmonic frequencies 3/4 wavelentgh above are effected as well ... Here's some info(not particuarly detailed, and - you divide the frequency to be notched INTO 300, not 300 into the frequency as I interpeted the instructions) on how to make a 1/4 wave coax stub filter:

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/coaxfilter.html


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Nitewatchman_
> *Absolutely - Ideally, that is what you want to do ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You probably wouldn't want to use one of those however on the antenna system you need to use if you want to actually receive the "strong signal" involved ...
> 
> *



The MHT-U has two adjustable filters of around -25db each so it's possible to just attenuate the channel and still receive it. It definitely isn't easy, though, and does require at least an analog TV which doesn't have a mute circuit.


Tinlee also makes standard as well as custom filters.
http://www.tinlee.com/ 

I have a low band-highband+UHF diplexer from them which works very well and seems very well made. It has around .5db through-loss according to the spec. sheet and was about 90 dollars CDN.


----------



## Nitewatchman

cpcat,


Yes, the two adjustable filters on the MWT series of traps are so you can notch out either different portions of different channels, or for example(NTSC), for one channel use one side for the video carrier and one side for the audio carrier, or both for the video carrier/etc.


I've personally not seen it work out so the result on the trapped out channel would be what I would call "watchable" with the filter still being very effective, but I'll take your word for it, and I've only used the MWT filter for VHF, and my purpose(with all the traps I'm using) is to knock down a few of the strongest signals in my area as much as is possible .... Even though, a station uses a 6MHZ slice of UHF spectrum the same way it does on VHF ... and remember, you are not notching out the entire 6MHZ wide bandwidth with the MWT series of filters, only portions of it ....


----------



## Sgalat

I've also posted on the Chicago forum...


I live 47 miles to the northwest of Chicago - the next town north of Gurnee. I just purchased a 36 element from Radio shack. Put it in the attic with no luck - no channels. Could not find a 7777 so I just picked up a phillips pre amp as my run is 100' of quad shielded RG6. No signals. Tried to run a short line to a test TV - no signal. Moved the antenna to the roof - no TV signals but I now am picking up audio from Waukegan regional airport on the VHF's. At one point today I actually got a clear signal from WGN, WLS and a faint one from WBBM. Also had a host of UHF's. Got excited and hooked the signal to my 921 E* DVR to see if it could find any digital signals. It saw a bunch of analogs but no digital ones. When I put the analog WGN on the screen it was all snow. Moved the cable back to the test set and nothing but air traffic controlles and black screens that change when mics are keyed.


Does anyone have any solutions besides seeing how far the antenna will fly from the top of my roof? I've missed the Super Bowl in HD, will miss the Daytona 500 tomorrow now and am pretty frustrated.


I'd apprecaite any help.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Nitewatchman_
> *cpcat,
> 
> 
> Yes, the two adjustable filters on the MWT series of traps are so you can notch out either different portions of different channels, or for example(NTSC), for one channel use one side for the video carrier and one side for the audio carrier, or both for the video carrier/etc.
> 
> 
> I've personally not seen it work out so the result on the trapped out channel would be what I would call "watchable" with the filter still being very effective, but I'll take your word for it, and I've only used the MWT filter for VHF, and my purpose(with all the traps I'm using) is to knock down a few of the strongest signals in my area as much as is possible .... Even though, a station uses a 6MHZ slice of UHF spectrum the same way it does on VHF ... and remember, you are not notching out the entire 6MHZ wide bandwidth with the MWT series of filters, only portions of it ....*



The VHF models have much narrower notches. The MHT-U is -12db over a 3 MHz wide notch. The notch widths of the vhf models are in khz. See http://www.blondertongue.com/media/p...eadend/mwt.pdf


----------



## Nitewatchman

Cpcat,


Yes, they are different and I could see where UHF could be more "watchable" in some cases depending upon how it's adjusted. And, I can tell you the same is true for Winegard's UT2700 tunable UHF trap which at best does a -16db notch if both sides of it are used on the same channel - say adusted for the video carrier which will just "snow it up" a little more than anything else .... but still, you would have to have a "even" amount of attenuation across the 6MHZ channel for it "perfectly" and evenly atteunate the channel, as would be the case with a simple attenuator(which would also of course "attuentate" all other frequencies as well) -- The MWT traps don't do that, which especially is probably not a good thing if you are trying to knock down an ATSC signal(which for the most part pretty evenly uses the entire 6MHZ channel) a "little bit" and still be able to receive it "perfectly" ... The notch is "deeper" for a narrower amount of bandwidth, even with the MWT-U. Which is what you want if you want to knock down a NTSC station as much as possible, since most of the RF energy from NTSC station is contained in relatively narrow sections of bandwidth within the 6MHZ wide channel ...


For instance, If you see by the specs, The VHF models affect only 2MHZ wide notch at -3db, whearas The UHF model affects an entire 10MHZ wide notch at -3db(obviously meaning a portion of first adjacent channels are slightly effected, about as much as a 2 way spitter, especially if you add in the insertion loss ).


The UHF model notches 3MHZ at -12db as you said and the specs indicate, but it has a DEEPER notch, 1.8MHZ wide at -20db, and since it shows a Maximum notch of -60db(but doesn't show the amount of bandwidth affected), I think you can assume that for a certian amount of bandwidth, if you tune both sides of the trap to the same frequency(say to knock down the NTSC video carrier as much as possible) you'll have a -60db notch on a certian amount of bandwidth, probably something around 800KHZ~1MHZ wide or so would be my best guess ...


----------



## Afergy

sregener: Thanks for your response. My homeowners association is telling me I can't install an antenna on my roof. I thought I read somewhere on one of the antenna websites that associations can't dictate installing an antenna on the roof. Do you know if this information is true?


I'm not sure when looking at antenna spec's what's the best scenario. Example: 10db or 20db.

Example F/B ratio.

How high should an antenna be placed? I own a single story.


Any help will be greatly appreciated.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Afergy_
> *sregener: Thanks for your response. My homeowners association is telling me I can't install an antenna on my roof. I thought I read somewhere on one of the antenna websites that associations can't dictate installing an antenna on the roof. Do you know if this information is true?*



HOA's are severely limited in the restrictions which can be placed on antennas nowadays; they're basically left to bullying uninformed people. As long as you meet the rules set forth by the FCC, HOA's can't dictate much anymore.

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html


----------



## cjhrph




> Quote:
> I live in ZIP 13323 approx 30-40 miles from the towers. Its hilly terrain here and im not at one of the highest elevations in the area. I have been messing with the DTV signals for the last year and have tried the following equipment/setup.
> 
> 
> Zenith HDV420
> 
> Samsung 351
> 
> Samsung 165
> 
> 
> Channel Master 4248, 4228
> 
> Winegard PR-9032
> 
> 
> Channel Master 7777 pre-amp
> 
> 
> Rooftop install with rotor ~ 35 ft above ground.
> 
> 
> It appears that for my location the Yagi's work better than the bowtie, presumably due to multipath. I have not been sucessful with either of the Samsung's, they just cant lock and hold the signals.
> 
> 
> The 420 with the Winegard has been pretty good on most channels. However, I still suffer from random dropouts and pixellation. I recently picked up an LG4200A receiver and its pretty good except it completely rejects one of the stations that I used to get with the 420.
> 
> 
> I am considering a different antenna, perhaps the DAT-75, JBX-21, or XG91. I was hoping that one of these designs may just be that much better than the Winegard to allow for better success. I really cant get any more height without erecting a tower.








** Update **


I decided to try the CM 4228 8-bay with the new receiver (4200a) yesterday at the same location before going out and purchasing another Yagi or ganging two together.


Well, the improvement in reception has been dramatic. Channels 17,25,33 are coming in rock solid. I can now receive channel 47 (CBS) well, I could not even get it to decode with the 9032.


Channel 54 is still receivable but had some artifacts last night. I need to use the rotor to tune between 47 and 54. The antenna is not quite as strong on the higher channels. I need to mess with the location of the antenna a bit more to see if I can improve on this.


Now I am thinking that the DB8 may just be the "right" antenna for my situation and receiver. Apparently, it doesnt suffer from some of the inherent design flaws and may just get me the extra bit of gain on chanells above 50.


Does anyone have hands on experience with the DB8 vs the 4228. I could not find a review on the net.


----------



## Robert George




> Quote:
> Does anyone have hands on experience with the DB8 vs the 4228. I could not find a review on the net.



I have been using a 4228 for about 8 months. Just a week ago, I found the DB8 while searching information on antennas. I decided to try it as the DB8 claims higher gain than the CM4228.


Bottom line, I wasted a hundred bucks. The DB8 was markedly worse than the 4228. Only the strong stations were still clear. Of the two weaker stations in my area that I was hoping to improve reception of, I lost one entirely and the other was unwatchable.


CM4228 wins by knockout in the first round.










I am, however, now considering a quality preamp on the 4228 to see if I get help on my weaker stations.


----------



## Hawkster69




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dswallow_
> 
> *HOA's are severely limited in the restrictions which can be placed on antennas nowadays; they're basically left to bullying uninformed people. As long as you meet the rules set forth by the FCC, HOA's can't dictate much anymore.
> 
> 
> B]
> *


*


Q: I want a conventional "stick" antenna to receive a distant over-the air television signal. Does the rule apply to me?


A: No. The rule does not apply to television antennas used to receive a distant signal.



whats considered a stick antenna and a distant signal?


I Need a Red antenna, would that be considered a distant signal? I live in a mobile home park and antenna's are not allowed, depending on how you interrupt that Question answer depends on whether the rule applys..*


----------



## cmassa

I live in the Chico, CA area (95973). I have a Terk TV-50 mounted in my attic connected to my Sony 55XS955. Analog reception is OK. Reception of the digital channels (Fox, CBS, NBC) in Chico is not generally a problem despite their low power. PBS and ABC come from Redding which is 67 miles away and are also at low power. All stations are within a 90 degree arc from me. I haven't considered changing my antenna until recently. The Redding stations are transmitting HDTV, Chico's are not.


I recently installed a DirecTV HD-Tivo unit. It must have a better tuner because I can get a picture from PBS and it is HDTV. Its not watchable but it is there. I still get nothing from ABC. When I check signal strength on ABC, it shows but is low (around 20%), PBS is around 45-50%.


The terrain here is flat with the transmitters on mountains. The Redding transmitters are 1900 meters above sea level, I am at about 100 meters above sea level. There are no mountains between.


So, I still want to use the attic mount (asthetics). I realize I won't get the full potential in the attic but will changing the Terk TV-50 to an AntennasDirect DB4 or DB8 increase my chances of a watchable signal from Redding? A rotator is also not a possibility right now as it would be very difficult to get a control wire to my living room. Would the beamwidth of the new antenna be too narrow to receive the closer stations if it is aimed toward Redding. I don't know the characteristics or specifications of the Terk antenna. It is a powered antenna, whatever that means. Would I benefit from a preamp as well? I would like to stick with antennasdirect because if it doesn't work I could return the antenna.


Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.


Chris


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: UHF ANTENNA COMPARISON PLOTS.


I finally finished and posted an Excel spreadsheet, with comparison plots, listing the Gain, Front/Back Ratio and Beamwidth for over two dozen UHF Antennas.


It also includes a comparison of NEC simulation data found at www.hdtvprimer.com to several different antenna types.

Sometimes it agrees, and sometimes not.


Click on fol:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1108936241


----------



## fay28301

This is for MAX HD from fay28301. Thanks for the link on where I can find a CM 4251, I am going to send them an email when I get off of here. I found an old one that is rather oxidized for next to nothing, but I would rather use a new one than go through the trouble of cleaning the old one up. As far as that goes, I don't even know what to use to get the oxidation off of it, so I figured that I would sand & polyurathane it, unless someone can tell me something better to clean it with. The reason I was looking for one, is that I stay near Fayetteville, N.C., (Hope Mills) which is about 70mi from any of the major networks which come out of Raleigh, N.C. I can get all of them except the WB & UPN stations, which come & go. No trouble with any of them on analog. I used to have a CM4251 until it got destroyed in a house fire. As I said, for sheer gain it was the best UHF antenna ever made---but---(always one of them, ain't it) it suffered mightily from multipath interference due to the way the reflector was made. The feed would pick up any nearby adjacent stations through the screen while trying to pickup the far off ones through the front. I don't know how much this will affect digital reception with this antenna, but it is worth a try. Now I have a CM4228A and a CM7775 preamp about 40ft. up, with RG-11 coax downlead. I have a U.S. Digital STB which seems to have an excellent tuner in it. I didn't really want to go any higher (aggravation of have to buy & install a tower), so I figured on a better antenna. I tried 2 DAT75's which had a combined gain comparable to one 4228. They are stored in my attic now. Sorry for being late on the reply to you.

fay28301


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Hawkster69_
> *Q: I want a conventional "stick" antenna to receive a distant over-the air television signal. Does the rule apply to me?
> 
> 
> A: No. The rule does not apply to television antennas used to receive a distant signal.
> 
> 
> whats considered a stick antenna and a distant signal?
> 
> 
> I Need a Red antenna, would that be considered a distant signal? I live in a mobile home park and antenna's are not allowed, depending on how you interrupt that Question answer depends on whether the rule applys..*



Basically, the FCC's ruling doesn't allow you to put up an antenna with the express purpose of getting a station that is outside of your DMA (typically more than 60 miles away.) All you have to avoid doing is say that you're putting it up to get anything but local stations. If you get more than that, that's just a "bonus."


A "stick antenna" is probably a conventional yagi-style antenna. I hope they're not talking about simple, single dipoles.


The onus is on them to prove that their rule doesn't prevent you from getting local reception at an adequate level. If their restrictions reduce the quality of your signal from local stations, their restrictions are illegal. And since requiring a smaller antenna will mean a reduction in quality of signal, they can't restrict the size of the antenna. Local codes can apply if you're more than 12' above the roof line, but even HOA covenants don't apply to antennas placed more than 12' above the roof line.


A red antenna is fairly large, and you'll probably face some resistance. But the stations listed as red are not usually considered distant. That's usually for antennas in the violet range.


I think the laws would be interpreted as a renter for most mobile home communities.


If you put an antenna up and the association decides to fight it, you can request a declaratory ruling from the FCC. This process takes about 18 months, but the upside is that your antenna *stays* until they make their ruling. If you lose (and I have yet to hear of anyone losing) with the FCC, you have 30 days to remove the antenna without penalty.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cmassa_
> *So, I still want to use the attic mount (asthetics). I realize I won't get the full potential in the attic but will changing the Terk TV-50 to an AntennasDirect DB4 or DB8 increase my chances of a watchable signal from Redding? A rotator is also not a possibility right now as it would be very difficult to get a control wire to my living room. Would the beamwidth of the new antenna be to narrow to receive the closer stations if it is aimed toward Redding. I don't know the characteristics or specifications of the Terk antenna. It is a powered antenna, whatever that means. Would I benefit from a preamp as well?*



Powered = amplified. More amplification would likely make things worse.


A DB4 has a wider beamwidth and might be good enough to get everything, but it's not a sure thing. The DB4 is a much better antenna than your TV-50.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by fay28301_
> *I tried 2 DAT75's which had a combined gain comparable to one 4228. They are stored in my attic now. Sorry for being late on the reply to you.
> 
> fay28301*



How did you stack them?

My experience is that two DAT75's stacked horizontally outperform the 4228 by a fair margin. It's likely as much or more due to the narrowed beamwidth as opposed to increased gain.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by fay28301_
> *This is for MAX HD from fay28301. Thanks for the link on where I can find a CM 4251, I am going to send them an email when I get off of here. I found an old one that is rather oxidized for next to nothing, but I would rather use a new one than go through the trouble of cleaning the old one up. As far as that goes, I don't even know what to use to get the oxidation off of it, so I figured that I would sand & polyurathane it, unless someone can tell me something better to clean it with. The reason I was looking for one, is that I stay near Fayetteville, N.C., (Hope Mills) which is about 70mi from any of the major networks which come out of Raleigh, N.C. I can get all of them except the WB & UPN stations, which come & go. No trouble with any of them on analog. I used to have a CM4251 until it got destroyed in a house fire. As I said, for sheer gain it was the best UHF antenna ever made---but---(always one of them, ain't it) it suffered mightily from multipath interference due to the way the reflector was made. The feed would pick up any nearby adjacent stations through the screen while trying to pickup the far off ones through the front. I don't know how much this will affect digital reception with this antenna, but it is worth a try. Now I have a CM4228A and a CM7775 preamp about 40ft. up, with RG-11 coax downlead. I have a U.S. Digital STB which seems to have an excellent tuner in it. I didn't really want to go any higher (aggravation of have to buy & install a tower), so I figured on a better antenna. I tried 2 DAT75's which had a combined gain comparable to one 4228. They are stored in my attic now. Sorry for being late on the reply to you.
> 
> fay28301*



Both those stations are throwing out a paltry 9Kw signal.I'm surprised you're seeing anything at all.Give them a call and tell them to get with the program.


A pair of DAT75's vertically stacked at 3ft. apart will perform better than the 4228 or the 4251,or at least that's what I've observed in this particular location.


----------



## Everton66

Hi

I am located in Alexandria VA and am currently getting reception on all locals using a Radio Shack 15-2160. However I would like to pick up WNVT which is at 248 degrees at 19 miles. Most of the other locals are in 29 to 39 degree 7-12 mile range. However I am picking up WMPT at 75 degrees and 32 miles although it is borderline.

Having scanned this site I came up with two solutions:


1. Add another identical antenna pointing in the direction of WNVT and risk phasing problems. I know I could add a CM filter to filter the other channels but worried that I might lose enought gain in the extra connections to mess up my existing reception.


2. Try a bow tie such as DB4 with the screen removed to see if I could pick up the other channel and risk multipath problems.


Any opinions. Couldn't find any specs other than maximum gain for the DB4 on the antennasdirect site. Anybody have the specs or opinions on CM4225 vs DB4?


Thanks.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Everton66_
> *2. Try a bow tie such as DB4 with the screen removed to see if I could pick up the other channel and risk multipath problems.
> 
> 
> Any opinions. Couldn't find any specs other than maximum gain for the DB4 on the antennasdirect site. Anybody have the specs or opinions on CM4225 vs DB4?
> *



I'd be surprised if the DB4 would work for you. With or without the screen. It's maximum theoretical gain is about half the CM4228 (or 3db less.) Since the CM4228's theoretical gain is 16db, the DB4 can't have more than 13db. Because of losses from the balun and connectors, the DB4 is probably somewhere around 11db of gain. The 4228's is closer to 14db.


----------



## Everton66

quote from sregener:

"I'd be surprised if the DB4 would work for you. With or without the screen. It's maximum theoretical gain is about half the CM4228 (or 3db less.) Since the CM4228's theoretical gain is 16db, the DB4 can't have more than 13db. Because of losses from the balun and connectors, the DB4 is probably somewhere around 11db of gain. The 4228's is closer to 14db."


The antenna I am currently using successfully is a Radio Shack 15-2160 and has these specs

UHF Band Chan. Average Gain:.........................................9.5 dB

Median Av. F/B Ratio:.............................................UHF 14 dB

Average Half - Power Beam Width:...................UHF 47 degrees at CH. 30


I thought the DB4 would be an improvement on that, but the web site only lists maximum gain (13.5dB) and as you have pointed out a useful 11dB. I don't want to get much bigger than the CM4225. If I am not gaining much then I will probably leave as is and try combining two of the same.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Sgalat_
> *I've also posted on the Chicago forum...
> 
> 
> I live 47 miles to the northwest of Chicago - the next town north of Gurnee. I just purchased a 36 element from Radio shack. Put it in the attic with no luck - no channels. Could not find a 7777 so I just picked up a phillips pre amp as my run is 100' of quad shielded RG6. No signals. Tried to run a short line to a test TV - no signal. Moved the antenna to the roof - no TV signals but I now am picking up audio from Waukegan regional airport on the VHF's. At one point today I actually got a clear signal from WGN, WLS and a faint one from WBBM. Also had a host of UHF's. Got excited and hooked the signal to my 921 E* DVR to see if it could find any digital signals. It saw a bunch of analogs but no digital ones. When I put the analog WGN on the screen it was all snow. Moved the cable back to the test set and nothing but air traffic controlles and black screens that change when mics are keyed.
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any solutions besides seeing how far the antenna will fly from the top of my roof? I've missed the Super Bowl in HD, will miss the Daytona 500 tomorrow now and am pretty frustrated.
> 
> 
> I'd apprecaite any help.*



The first thing I'd do is get a 7777. They're available at SolidSignal.com as well as from Starkelectronics and Warrenelectronics. The next thing is to be sure you're aiming precisely. Go to http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp and put in your coordinates in decimal form for precise bearings/distances. A good place to get your lat/longitude is http://terraserver.microsoft.com/. That's not a bad antenna choice considering you need low band (vhf 2-6) for Chicago digitals, but the problem you may run into is it may or may not be adequate for UHF and you may have to end up using separate antennas. The 7777 will allow you to do this easily as it has an internal VHF/UHF diplexer. Try the RS antenna first with the 7777 and go from there. You can easily add a CM 4228 later for UHF and keep the RS antenna but use it for VHF only.


The 7777 has to be configured for using the combo vhf/uhf antenna. I believe it may come from the factory set to do so via the "combined" input but you'll need to open it up and check to be sure. I'd set the FM trap to "in" as well.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Everton66_
> *The antenna I am currently using successfully is a Radio Shack 15-2160 and has these specs
> 
> UHF Band Chan. Average Gain:.........................................9.5 dB
> 
> Median Av. F/B Ratio:.............................................UHF 14 dB
> 
> 
> I thought the DB4 would be an improvement on that, but the web site only lists maximum gain (13.5dB) and as you have pointed out a useful 11dB. I don't want to get much bigger than the CM4225. If I am not gaining much then I will probably leave as is and try combining two of the same.*



I think Radio Shack's numbers are usually highly inflated. Knowing the 15-2160 as I do, I'd be surprised if it has 9.5 db of gain on any frequency. More likely, it's a 7-8db of "real gain."


Joining two identical antennas together in a stack will get you no more than (and probably slightly less than) 3db of gain. It will get you a hefty increase of front-to-back ratio as well as a significant decrease in beamwidth. Those are good things, no doubt about it. But they're going to be larger than 1 4228 or DB8, because you're going to have to mount them a minimum of 30" apart.


If you're pointing the antennas in different directions to receive stations in two areas, it doesn't matter if they're the same, different, red, green, blue, or coated in a special polymer. They're going to mess each other's signals up unless you use a Jointenna or similar filtering mechanism. You can get cable lengths perfect, place them perfectly, and still have them mess each other up. I've said it a million times and I'll keep saying it until I'm blue in the face: You cannot combine two antennas designed to receive the same frequency, point them in different directions, connect them via a simple splitter/combiner and *expect* to get good results.


So I guess, in the immortal words of Clint Eastwood, "Do you feel lucky?"


----------



## dapack5

i tried to post this question last night and today i can't find my post:

i recently aquired a winegard UHF antenna- model U-630. is anyone familiar with this model and how well it works? i can't find any info anywhere on it, the source i aquired it from says that it's a 120 mile range antenna. it's approximately 72" longe and looks like an extremely large yagi type antenna. i would like to know if it's even worth installing or not.



thanks in advance


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dapack5_
> *i tried to post this question last night and today i can't find my post:
> 
> i recently aquired a winegard UHF antenna- model U-630. ...the source i aquired it from says that it's a 120 mile range antenna. it's approximately 72" longe and looks like an extremely large yagi type antenna. i would like to know if it's even worth installing or not.*



If you have a digital camera, a shot would help us. A search on Winegard U-630 turned up zero hits on Google, a sure sign that the model number isn't correct.


If you can't take a picture, take a look at the Winegard website and see which antenna looks most like it. That will help us assess its abilities.


Most likely, you've got a UHF/VHF combo, and the 120 mile range is for the VHF side. No UHF antenna is capable of an advertised range greater than 60 miles.


----------



## bbguy4701

Hello can some one tell me how to figure out this.


If at ground level how far is the Line of Sight. And if I was on a 2 story house, or if I added a pole at 20 feet above my house?


I am looking to pick up at 90 to 100 mile.

Thank You


----------



## fmx




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *If you're using a UHF/VHF combiner (one with inputs labled UHF and VHF) the lengths shouldn't matter. If you're using a simple splitter as your combiner, the length is critical, but identical might not be the proper length. That's because the signals would need to be "in phase." Unless the active elements lined up precisely on the vertical plane, identical lengths would probably not be in phase at all.
> 
> 
> I strongly recommend using a CM#0549 or similar (Channel Master preamps with separate inputs for UHF and VHF have the same electronics for filtering) when combining a VHF and UHF antenna. Although each antenna shouldn't get much on the other's frequency, they get enough that it could conflict in weak signal situations. I get hi-VHF with my UHF-only antenna, and even a little on lo-VHF. Better to filter that out and get a clean signal from one source than to risk mixing two.*



Will a pre-amp survive in attic ambient temperatures?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by bbguy4701_
> *If at ground level how far is the Line of Sight. And if I was on a 2 story house, or if I added a pole at 20 feet above my house?
> 
> 
> I am looking to pick up at 90 to 100 mile.
> *



Plug in your numbers here:
http://www.vwlowen.demon.co.uk/java/horizon.htm 


For a broadcasting antenna at average height (approximately 400 meters) you need to go at least 200 meters to get line of sight.


90-100 miles for UHF is very difficult unless the broadcasting tower is very tall (such as the top of a mountain.) Things such as topography between you and the desired station, as well as weather conditions, are going to be far more important than antenna height. But doubling your antenna height AGL has a major boost to reception strength. Every time you do it, it's like going from a UHF loop at the lower location to the best UHF antenna out there at the upper, with no change in hardware.


I'm 75 or so miles from my desired stations, have a 54' tower, and I still don't get reliable reception all the time from those stations. I do have one station that is about 85 miles away and it oftentimes does come it. But I'd never count on it.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> _originally posted by bbguy4701_
> 
> If at ground level how far is the Line of Sight. And if I was on a 2 story house, or if I added a pole at 20 feet above my house?
> 
> I am looking to pick up at 90 to 100 mile.



One important thing in fringe reception is the elevation or altitude of your location. I'm almost 1800 ft. above sea level and rock solid pick up UHF digital stations 125 miles away with attic antenna. I'm a strong believer in T&E (trial and error) for antenna techniques.


----------



## cpcat

Quote:

_Originally posted by sregener_
*Plug in your numbers here:
http://www.vwlowen.demon.co.uk/java/horizon.htm 

*
That's a great little calculator. Too bad it doesn't take into account intervening topography. I know of software you can buy that will do this but I've never seen anywhere free online you can do it. The software I've seen is called "TOPO USA terrain" I think and a local AVS'er sent me some cool profiles using it several mos. back for my location. Sorry for the zip file but it was the only way I could get it to upload. You have to save it to view it.

 

terrain profiles.zip 94.013671875k . file


----------



## fay28301

This is for MAX HD from fay28301 again. I read your advice about using the DAT75's again and am going to give them another try. When I stacked them before, 3ft. apart, 40 ft. up, I used two pieces of RG-6QS the same length from each antenna to a RS gold combiner, then from there into my preamp. As I said before, the gain was comparable to one CM4228, why?, I don't know, however if you have any suggestions or can tell me what I did wrong about the previous installation PLEASE let me know. I will wait before installing them until I hear from you. By the way, The WB must have boosted power, as I can receive them wtw & ttt now.

fay28301


----------



## SD4934

I just put up a new antenna (Wingard 8 bay double bow tie). I used the pre amp from my old antenna (blonder tongue vhf/uhf about 3 1/2 years old-don't know the specs--someone else installed my last antenna and I don't have any documentaion). One channel is problematic. Would, possibly, a UHF only pre amp (such as the CM 7775) make an improvement

(I know I will have to try it to know for sure). I probably need to replace the pre amp anyway. It's been baking in the Alabama sun for a good while.

I need to put a little more height on my antenna. When I bought my mast materials last Sunday the store only had three mast segments (a little over 5 ft each). I think I can add one more and still have a stable set up it is a ground mount attached to my soffitt--the house is one story). But anyway, since all my digital channels are UHF I thought I would try a UHF only pre amp.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by fay28301_
> *This is for MAX HD from fay28301 again. I read your advice about using the DAT75's again and am going to give them another try. When I stacked them before, 3ft. apart, 40 ft. up, I used two pieces of RG-6QS the same length from each antenna to a RS gold combiner, then from there into my preamp. As I said before, the gain was comparable to one CM4228, why?, I don't know, however if you have any suggestions or can tell me what I did wrong about the previous installation PLEASE let me know. I will wait before installing them until I hear from you. By the way, The WB must have boosted power, as I can receive them wtw & ttt now.
> 
> fay28301*



It's hard to say why they didn't work better.Placement issue?Propagation issues over a short time period?When I had a vertical stack of them on the tower,spaced at 39",I had a lot of intermod and adjacent channel overload,due to the increased gain and decided to stack them horizontally.Less overload and better directivity.


The RS gold combiner wasn't a V/U combiner was it?That would NOT work.I always use the cheap 5-900Mhz two-way splitters and found they work as good as anything else.


----------



## dapack5




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *If you have a digital camera, a shot would help us. A search on Winegard U-630 turned up zero hits on Google, a sure sign that the model number isn't correct.
> 
> 
> If you can't take a picture, take a look at the Winegard website and see which antenna looks most like it. That will help us assess its abilities.
> 
> 
> Most likely, you've got a UHF/VHF combo, and the 120 mile range is for the VHF side. No UHF antenna is capable of an advertised range greater than 60 miles.*



i did find some info today from an ex-local dealer. it's definetly UHF only. this antenna has not been built for over 15 years now, it has 2 wing nuts on the top side of the antenna and has 2 vhf shorting stubbs, to connect a VHF antenna. on the bottom side it has the main lead going to the TV or pre-amp. when this antenna was new it was sold locally as a fringe long range antenna estimated to be a 120 mile UHF antenna.


my radio shack power amp and pre amp apparantly isn't all that hot ,so could i possibly do better with the channel master or winegard pre amp/ amp unit?


----------



## cmassa

Sorry to rehash a question I asked a bit ago but I need further info on beamwidth of antennas, specifically the DB4 or DB8. My previous post stated that I have recently been able to receive my PBS station using an attic mounted Terk TV50. I'm fairly confident I can do better than the Terk by changing antennas. It is best during a storm but I can get an intermittent picture other days. I have not yet even seen ABC (low power). Here is my info from antennaweb.org (zip 95973 in Chico, CA)


KHSL-DT 43.1 CBS CHICO CA 30° 14.1 43

KNVN-DT 36.1 NBC CHICO CA 326° 32.1 36

KCVU-DT 30.1 FOX PARADISE CA 29° 14.6 20

KRCR-DT 34.1 ABC REDDING CA 308° 67.0 34

KIXE-DT 9.1 PBS REDDING CA 308° 67.0 18


CBS, NBC, and Fox are not difficult to receive. CBS and Fox are about 90 degrees from the Redding stations. If I switch to a DB4 or DB8, should I still be able to receive the closer stations with the antenna pointed at Redding? I currently can't put in a rotator. I have very favorable terrain here. CBS, NBS, and Fox are at 3500-4000 ft elevation. I am at about 400 ft. No mountains are in the way. ABC and PBS, although at 67 miles are at almost 6300 ft. Line of site over the horizon should not be an issue (I think). Oh, which would be better in my situation, the DB4 or DB8? If more information is needed, please ask.


Thanks again,

Chris


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by SD4934_
> *I just put up a new antenna (Wingard 8 bay double bow tie). I used the pre amp from my old antenna (blonder tongue vhf/uhf about 3 1/2 years old-don't know the specs--someone else installed my last antenna and I don't have any documentaion). One channel is problematic. Would, possibly, a UHF only pre amp (such as the CM 7775) make an improvement
> 
> (I know I will have to try it to know for sure). I probably need to replace the pre amp anyway. It's been baking in the Alabama sun for a good while.
> 
> I need to put a little more height on my antenna. When I bought my mast materials last Sunday the store only had three mast segments (a little over 5 ft each). I think I can add one more and still have a stable set up it is a ground mount attached to my soffitt--the house is one story). But anyway, since all my digital channels are UHF I thought I would try a UHF only pre amp.*



That's probably a pretty good preamp. I'm not sure you'd see much improvement with the CM 777x series, but you might. My 7777 gave me a small but significant improvement over a Blonder Tongue Vaulter III plus. If you decide on a new preamp, I'd get the 7777 just to have VHF capability as it's about the same cost. The performance on UHF will be the same. If your current preamp has a 300 ohm input, that may be a small advantage in not having to use a balun. The 777x series has 75 ohm inputs so you'll likely incur some minimal loss through the conversion which may offset any improvement the new preamp might give you.


What channel is giving you the problem? The Winegard 8-bay has a rep for not being very good in the upper UHF range. It's also possible the channel in question is still at low power or you have co-channel interference from an analog. Here's a computer simulated comparison of various antennas including the Winegard 8800: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


Assuming you're not using a rotor, the CM 4228 is pretty hard to beat for flat response up and down the UHF range. It can be hard on a rotor, though.


----------



## holl_ands

Did you see my post on 2/20/05 @ 2pm?

I posted the fol. link to an Excel spreadsheet that I prepared wherein the Gain, F/B Ratio and Beamwidth are plotted for over two dozen antennas, based on spec sheet data.

I also included a comparison to the NEC simulation data found on the hdtvprimer site for several different antennas.

http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...9581#POST15793 


The spec sheets for the DB4 and DB8 only indicate a single gain figure, which is probably the maximum reached at the best frequency, expressed in the more optimistic dBi (relative to isotropic, i.e. equal in all three dimensions), which is 2.15 dB higher than the more commonly used dBp (relative to a dipole) units.


To get a good idea of performance, compare the DB4/DB8 to other similar 4-Bay and 8-Bay models from C-M and W-G.


----------



## holl_ands

re. UHF Propagation Prediction....FREE DOWNLOAD:


Dave Lung's latest TV TECHNOLOGY column described SPLAT!, a free Linux based program which will do UHF Propagation Prediction with Diffraction Loss due to terrain, based on the Longley-Rice model.

Explanation and downloading links are in :
http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...02.02.05.shtml


----------



## cmassa




> _Originally posted by holl_ands_
> 
> Did you see my post on 2/20/05 @ 2pm?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I've looked through this and while it is good information, I'm looking for some real world recommendations. From the information I see the DB4 should be less directional than the DB8 with less gain but could I reliably receive stations spaced 90 degrees apart without a rotor? Is there another antenna which may be better?
> 
> 
> Chris


----------



## holl_ands

Directional antennas nearly always have a NULL at 90 degrees.

So unless you are close enough to use an omni-directional antenna,

the best you can do is to operate way down on the sidelobes of

the antenna.....or go to multiple antennas.


----------



## Munkeung

Winegard YA-6260, 6 element low VHF antenna.


Anybody has experience with this?


I'm thinking of trying this in the attic to pick up channel 3 signal (WBBM-DT, Chicago) 30 miles from the tower.


----------



## greywolf

It looks like WBBM will be moving to high VHF in a couple of years. A low VHF antenna is likely to have a short lifespan. On the plus side, you could replace it with a high VHF antenna at the appropriate time and have a smaller antenna for the duration assuming you already have a UHF antenna going. Otherwise, a full spectrum VHF or combo may make more economic sense.


----------



## Munkeung




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by greywolf_
> *It looks like WBBM will be moving to high VHF in a couple of years. A low VHF antenna is likely to have a short lifespan. On the plus side, you could replace it with a high VHF antenna at the appropriate time and have a smaller antenna for the duration assuming you already have a UHF antenna going. Otherwise, a full spectrum VHF or combo may make more economic sense.*



I do have a combo antenna in the attic right now and can pull in all stations. It's a 15 year old RS. I don't know the model number but it's about 12' long and the V shaped (in the vertical plane) VHF portion. I could pick up WBBM-DT with the Samsung 151 (with occasional dropouts) but the signal is nominally below the threshold(?) for my Samsung 351 (that's another story). I'm thinking of building a PVR using the new MyHD 130 card and want to optimize the reception before I do it. I don't think I can improve the UHF reception much and was just thinking whether a VHF low or single channel antenna would help with WBBM. I found 5 element VHF low Antennacraft at Starkelectronics for about $21 dollars but they emailed me that they don't carry it anymore but they do have the 6 element Winegard. The other option is to try the V4 from Antennasdirect but they don't show any spec info. I understand WBBM is moving but spending


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Munkeung_
> *Winegard YA-6260, 6 element low VHF antenna.
> 
> 
> Anybody has experience with this?
> 
> 
> I'm thinking of trying this in the attic to pick up channel 3 signal (WBBM-DT, Chicago) 30 miles from the tower.*



This will work, but it's gonna be *big*. I'm currently picking up an analog 3 pretty decent at 130 miles with a modified CM 3016 (Lowe's). The VHF elements are designed to be swept forward, but I turned them back perpendicular to the boom and it makes this a pretty darn good low band antenna. In an attic, you could just adjust the elements and forget it with no worry for wind. I had to put small set screws in to hold the elements in place 'cause mine is outside. Also, since you don't damage the antenna (but be careful) you could simply return it if it doesn't work.

The bonus is that it still seems to work pretty well for high band vhf as well.


Edit: I didn't see that you are already using a large combo antenna. I doubt the CM 3016 modified is likely to give you much improvement, although for me it works better on low band than the VHF section of a Winegard 8200p. If you are having problems even with the large combo, you might need to consider going outside.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by greywolf_
> *It looks like WBBM will be moving to high VHF in a couple of years.*



Well, their first choice is channel 11. If that fails, they're after channel 3.


Why would WTTW give up their lucrative hi-VHF digital channel for UHF channel 47? Did WBBM make a deal?


----------



## greywolf

WBBM once requested use of a UHF channel that was not yet in service from another station but the price was too high. Maybe they got a better deal from WTTW. Maybe the head honcho at WTTW has a Silver Sensor on his TV top with a good WAF. Whatever the reason, some sort of deal is in the works.


----------



## Munkeung




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *This will work, but it's gonna be *big*. I'm currently picking up an analog 3 pretty decent at 130 miles with a modified CM 3016 (Lowe's). The VHF elements are designed to be swept forward, but I turned them back perpendicular to the boom and it makes this a pretty darn good low band antenna. In an attic, you could just adjust the elements and forget it with no worry for wind. I had to put small set screws in to hold the elements in place 'cause mine is outside. Also, since you don't damage the antenna (but be careful) you could simply return it if it doesn't work.
> 
> The bonus is that it still seems to work pretty well for high band vhf as well.
> 
> 
> Edit: I didn't see that you are already using a large combo antenna. I doubt the CM 3016 modified is likely to give you much improvement, although for me it works better on low band than the VHF section of a Winegard 8200p. If you are having problems even with the large combo, you might need to consider going outside.*



Going outside would not be much of a challenge compared to the objection of my wife. I think I'll order the 6 element Winegard and try it out. If if does not work well, I could butcher it into a Ch. 3 specific 3 element antenna and try to convince my wife to put it below the eave in the back of the house.


----------



## greywolf

Some have had success making a 93" dipole out of 300 Ohm antenna wire.


----------



## Munkeung




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by greywolf_
> *Some have had success making a 93" dipole out of 300 Ohm antenna wire.*



Thanks. I did tried a folded dipole and I picked up nothing inside the attic, although now I suspect I had bad balun so I'll try again and will try putting it outside also.


----------



## homer1




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by MAX HD_
> *Where you live,a 90ft tower is a plus.Somewhat of a tv wasteland.Plenty of PBS,but not much else.Paducah,Cape Girardeau,Evansville might be easier than St Louis.
> 
> 
> The XG is a good choice.A rotor and a CM 7777 preamp and you're good to go.
> 
> 
> What Make and model is the Tower?*



You been right on MAX HD! I now have the xg91 and the cm7777. Went and hooked it up, setting on pool fence next to house, pointing directly into large garage. It is pulling channels 60 miles away already. I cannot recieve anything from St Louis yet (77 mi), but have gotten 2 dozen channels, with 13 of those being digital. WoW. Still need to purchase a rotor, so I have'nt got it mounted on the tower. Hopefully, that will get me some signals from St Louis once it is correctly installed.


One question I still have is about the tilting of the yagi? I wonder since my general location is low lyeing, would there be any benefit in a slight angle upwards?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by homer1_
> *One question I still have is about the tilting of the yagi? I wonder since my general location is low lyeing, would there be any benefit in a slight angle upwards?*



Some people have reported better results with tilting. I think this is more likely to be caused by moving the antenna into "hot spots" than anything else, but I haven't tested it personally.


If you use a rotor, you'll either need to invest in a remote tilter or you'll be pointed into the ground when you point in some directions.


If you've got hills that are more than 2-3 degrees above level, tilting might help. Otherwise, I'd go with a level install.


----------



## fay28301

Hi MAX HD, that combiner that I used was a one in & two outs

splitter that I reversed. As I said before, I will try the antennas

again, And I will let you know how it turns out. Also, I checked the

Excel document that someone else posted, and am trying to figure out

what the NEC is that the document refers to. Is that an independent

testing organization? If anybody knows, let me know.

--ALSO--I have found a great FCC web site that will let you know everything that did or did not want to know about a tv station,

including footprint & location maps. I tryed to post it yesterday,

but this forum would not let me because I don't have 5 posts yet.

When I do, I will post it then.

fay28301


----------



## fay28301

Here is that FCC site:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/tvq.html 


I have used it with pretty good luck on finding out everything you did & did not want to know about a tv station, including its footprint and maps of where it is located. All I ever do is plug in the city & state, and where it asks for the channel you want to look up, I always put ch. 2 into the lower as the upper already has ch. 69 in it. When I do it like that, it always gives me all of the stations in that city. Then I click on the one I am interested in.

fay28301


----------



## SD4934




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *That's probably a pretty good preamp. I'm not sure you'd see much improvement with the CM 777x series, but you might. My 7777 gave me a small but significant improvement over a Blonder Tongue Vaulter III plus. If you decide on a new preamp, I'd get the 7777 just to have VHF capability as it's about the same cost. The performance on UHF will be the same. If your current preamp has a 300 ohm input, that may be a small advantage in not having to use a balun. The 777x series has 75 ohm inputs so you'll likely incur some minimal loss through the conversion which may offset any improvement the new preamp might give you.
> 
> 
> What channel is giving you the problem? The Winegard 8-bay has a rep for not being very good in the upper UHF range. It's also possible the channel in question is still at low power or you have co-channel interference from an analog. Here's a computer simulated comparison of various antennas including the Winegard 8800: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
> 
> 
> Assuming you're not using a rotor, the CM 4228 is pretty hard to beat for flat response up and down the UHF range. It can be hard on a rotor, though.*



Thank for the reply. The channel that's giving me the biggest problem is 16-1, but it is as very low power. It did come in strong Friday and Saturday but it is raining today, so it's not coming in at all. The Blonder Tongue uses 300 ohm inputs so I might not gain with the Channel Master

(it came last Thursday but I haven't had a chance to do anything with it-CM 7775--all my local digitals are UHF--I have a cable feed for the analogs).

I was going to add another length of mast but the store was out of the 5 ft lengths. Increasing the height may help more than the new pre amp. If the 8 bay doesn't do the job (most of the towers are 40-50 miles from me in the same direction). One is full power and two are a little less than full power but I can get their signals with an indoor antenna (with some problems on one channel). The fourth channel I am trying to get is very low power (FOX). Our CBS station will finally be on the air this spring

(supposed to start up at full power).

.


----------



## bruschi88

Have you had practical experence at eliminating or at least reducing the effects of CCI between a digital and an analog signal?


Ch. 13 digital due North at 50 mi. and analog 60+ mi. at SSE

Digital nearly wipes analog out completely.


I'm an avid NFL football fan, thinking I'm now going through withdrawal shock! I'm already thinking about next season. I very much miss my analog 13 for Steelers games.


I'm thinking of a dedicated hi-band vhf or cut-to-channel 13 antenna on the south side of my house.


Any ideas?


Thanks


----------



## Rack




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by bruschi88_
> *I'm thinking of a dedicated hi-band vhf or cut-to-channel 13 antenna on the south side of my house.*


 http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/UltraHighGain/


----------



## MAX HD

Thanks Rack!


Yes,one of these strategically placed to optimize the reception of the analog station should work nicely.The reflector design may help some too,to null out the DT station.


Have some left,ready to ship!

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/UltraHighGain/


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by bruschi88_
> *Have you had practical experence at eliminating or at least reducing the effects of CCI between a digital and an analog signal?
> 
> 
> Ch. 13 digital due North at 50 mi. and analog 60+ mi. at SSE
> 
> Digital nearly wipes analog out completely.
> 
> 
> ...Any ideas?*



The trick is to point one antenna directly at the analog source, pad it down so that its output matches that of the main antenna, and couple the two leads so that they are 180 degrees out of phase with one another.


There isn't much point in me trying to explain how one goes about balancing the two signals and coupling them out of phase with one another because you surely do not have the signal measuring equipment needed to do so, but if you really have to solve this problem, that is what you should have a local antenna expert do.


I have a high-band (7-13) adjustable phase shifter I bought from Microwave Filter Company that I could sell you that makes the job easier to do, if you are intent on giving it a shot. I think paid about $500 for it, but I could let it go for $300.


----------



## AntAltMike

Oops. I now see that you are trying to preserve the analog source while canceling the digital, so do the opposite of what the above post recommends.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by bruschi88_
> *Have you had practical experence at eliminating or at least reducing the effects of CCI between a digital and an analog signal?
> 
> 
> Ch. 13 digital due North at 50 mi. and analog 60+ mi. at SSE
> 
> Digital nearly wipes analog out completely.
> 
> 
> I'm an avid NFL football fan, thinking I'm now going through withdrawal shock! I'm already thinking about next season. I very much miss my analog 13 for Steelers games.
> 
> 
> I'm thinking of a dedicated hi-band vhf or cut-to-channel 13 antenna on the south side of my house.
> 
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> 
> Thanks*



It's also possible to null unwanted channels by the use of horizontal stacking. I've done this with some measure of success. See http://www.kyes.com/antenna/sca/scaint1.html and
http://www.kyes.com/antenna/sca/scaint2.html 


The spacing required at channel 13 for increased gain is fairly wide, but I think you'll find the spacing for nulling should be more manageable. You may have to experiment with different widths to see what works best.


----------



## AntAltMike

I once significantly improved the front-to-back ratio of a highband antenna, receiving channel 7 in a hostile reception environment, by placing a second, identical highband antenna exactly one quarter wave length below it (around 29", as I recall). The front-to-back ratio increased without even electrically connecting the second antenna.


Actually, I found this by accident. I was removing and throwing away abandoned antennas on a highrise condominium with four masts, and noticed that the channel 7 got sucky when I removed the abandoned channel 9 antenna on the same mast, but improved when I clamped it back on, and then the rear rejection improved even more when I replaced the obsolete channel 9 antenna with a matching YA-1713.


----------



## VMsat

Okay, I have a CM 4228 on order, and will also need a VHF antenna. One of the signals is just 5 of so miles away(channel 4) but the other VHFs (channel 2, 7,10) are around 50 miles. What VHF only antenna that is still being made would be good for this purpose?

Thank you


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by VMsat_
> *Okay, I have a CM 4228 on order, and will also need a VHF antenna. One of the signals is just 5 of so miles away(channel 4) but the other VHFs (channel 2, 7,10) are around 50 miles. What VHF only antenna that is still being made would be good for this purpose?*



What market has 4 VHF digital signals? I suspect you're using analog channel equivalents, unless you're near Salt Lake City.


If you really need a VHF-only, this is a good one:
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/hd4053p.pdf


----------



## VMsat

They are not all digital, the channel 7 and 2 are digital but the others are not. But I need to get the analog 4 as well.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by VMsat_
> *Okay, I have a CM 4228 on order, and will also need a VHF antenna. One of the signals is just 5 of so miles away(channel 4) but the other VHFs (channel 2, 7,10) are around 50 miles. What VHF only antenna that is still being made would be good for this purpose?
> 
> Thank you*



Others to consider:

Antennacraft 3bg17: http://www.antennacraft-tdp.com/pdfs/3bg17_.pdf 

3bg22: http://www.antennacraft-tdp.com/pdfs/3bg22_.pdf 

cs900: http://www.antennacraft-tdp.com/pdfs/CS900.pdf 

Delhi VIP 304 or 305: http://wade-antenna.com/VHF-FMantennas.htm


----------



## VMsat

Thanks. I have another question. My parents like in the country and have a 35 foot antenna mast which is mounted in the ground about 50 feet from their house. The main tv is another 100 feet or more to the other side of the house. I think the CM 4228 is a good choice for UHF since some of the stations are atleast 50 miles or so away. However, one of the stations is only about 5 miles away from their house. My question is if a CM 7777 preamp is used, as the cabale will likely have to be atleast 150 feet, do you think it will degrade the signal from this closer station as some people have said that for close stations a preamp will make the signal worse. If so what can be done?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by VMsat_
> *Thanks. I have another question. My parents like in the country and have a 35 foot antenna mast which is mounted in the ground about 50 feet from their house. The main tv is another 100 feet or more to the other side of the house. I think the CM 4228 is a good choice for UHF since some of the stations are atleast 50 miles or so away. However, one of the stations is only about 5 miles away from their house. My question is if a CM 7777 preamp is used, as the cabale will likely have to be atleast 150 feet, do you think it will degrade the signal from this closer station as some people have said that for close stations a preamp will make the signal worse. If so what can be done?*



If they are truly "in the country" then this station is likely a low-power station, in which case it isn't a problem. If it's a full-power station, it may overload the preamp in which case you'll need to notch it out or attenuate it. Fixed filters of this type can be had at http://www.tinlee.com/ 

Blonder Tongue makes adjustable notch filters (very expensive) as does Winegard (for uhf only). The adjustable filters require time and effort as well as at least an analog TV without a mute circuit.


If you use a notch filter, you will most likely attenuate at least a channel above and below as well, depending on the slope of the filter.


----------



## VMsat

Where do I go to find out if this is a low power station. I just went to antennaweb.org and it does not show the power.


----------



## VMsat

Okay i found it on tvradioworld, it is 12.9 kW. Is this considered low power?


----------



## j_buckingham80

How accurate, generally, are AntennaWeb's projections. I know they say they're somewhat conservative, but for me they say I can receive UHF transmissions from 120 miles away with a Violet Antenna (LD with Preamp). I read that to basically say CM 4228 + CM 7777. I can receive my local stations fine all of them. This is more basically a curiousity to me, that "conservatively" I could get 5 stations from 120 Miles away and 1 station in Reno from 140 Miles away (all Violet, not Pink). (They're analogs, but still I'm curious as it might also put me outside of some blackout areas...not that I'd ever consider that as a reason to go outside my DMA). Right now I'm have with a CM 4221 no Preamp or Amp, and do just fine for locals.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by VMsat_
> *Okay i found it on tvradioworld, it is 12.9 kW. Is this considered low power?*



Depends on whether that's lo-VHF (channels 2-6), hi-VHF (channels 7-13) or UHF.


If it's UHF, it's low power. If it's lo-VHF, that's pretty hot. Hi-VHF is in between.


----------



## VMsat

It's channel 4 so I might need an attenuator i guess if i use a preamp. I live in west texas in the middle of almost nowhere and none of the so called local stations i get, ( although they are from a larger city about 50 miled away Midland /Odessa area) broadcast in HD although they are in digital. Lubbock, a larger city 100 miles to the north on the other hand has three stations in HD, channel 9-1 (NBC), 5-1 (PBS), and 35-1( another network not sure if CBS or ABC). Right now with my sensar II antenna mounted on a twenty foot mast on the roof with rotor, I get some of the Lubbock stations some of the time. I never get any of the Midland/Odessa stations which is only 50 miles away, probably because of a hill between my house and that city. The terrain between my house and lubbock (100 miles away) is 100% completely flat. Probably the flattest 100 mile strtch in the whole country. Now when I get my new CM 4228 and CM 7777 preamp I'm hoping to get these HD stations out of Lubbock. The problem is the 4228 is UHF and channel 7-1 and 5-1 are not UHF stations, but I understand that that antenna is also good with higher VHF stations. What do you think, might I be able to bring in these stations?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by VMsat_
> *It's channel 4 so I might need an attenuator i guess if i use a preamp. I live in west texas in the middle of almost nowhere and none of the so called local stations i get, ( although they are from a larger city about 50 miled away Midland /Odessa area) broadcast in HD although they are in digital. Lubbock, a larger city 100 miles to the north on the other hand has three stations in HD, channel 9-1 (NBC), 5-1 (PBS), and 35-1( another network not sure if CBS or ABC). Right now with my sensar II antenna mounted on a twenty foot mast on the roof with rotor, I get some of the Lubbock stations some of the time. I never get any of the Midland/Odessa stations which is only 50 miles away, probably because of a hill between my house and that city. The terrain between my house and lubbock (100 miles away) is 100% completely flat. Probably the flattest 100 mile strtch in the whole country. Now when I get my new CM 4228 and CM 7777 preamp I'm hoping to get these HD stations out of Lubbock. The problem is the 4228 is UHF and channel 7-1 and 5-1 are not UHF stations, but I understand that that antenna is also good with higher VHF stations. What do you think, might I be able to bring in these stations?*



As far as I can tell, in the Midland/Odessa as well as Lubbock area, the only VHF digital you have is on ch. 9 from Lubbock. The channel 4 you are referring to is an analog NBC from Big Springs. You should do fine with the 7777 and the CM 4228. Hook to the "combined" input and be sure the internal switches are set to "combined" and the FM trap "in". The 4228 should do a very nice job of attenuating channel 4 as it's gain is minimal there. It should do pretty well for channel 9 but if you need more add an Antennacraft Y10 7-13 or equivalent high band antenna which still will not likely have enough channel 4 gain to overload the preamp.


----------



## VMsat

Thanks for the information, I will try the 4228 with the 7777 first and then upgrade if needed.


----------



## bruschi88

Many thanks to all who replied to my post about ch.13 cci from a couple days ago. The information was very helpful and much appreciated!


I'm leaning toward trying one PSP.1922 initially and then perhaps two horizontally stacked.


I've been waiting for the ch.13 analog in question (WOWK-DT47, Huntington,WV.) to improve the quality of their digital signal. I can receive their digital, but to say they're not passing HD would be a gross understatement, as all the folks in the Charleston,WV section can attest. I'd rather watch a semi-noisey analog!


Thanks again!


----------



## SteveMSU

I hate doing this, but I'm driving myself nuts trying to get a local CBS station and have had zero luck. I'm trying to pick up WWMT, a CBS out of Kalamazoo/Grand Rapids. I'm 31 miles southeast of the antenna. I'm also in a southeast facing apartment meaning I have several walls to go through. I am on the 2nd floor however. I've tried a folded dipole with little luck. The station is on the frequency assignment 2, but is channel 3.1. Anyway, I went to Menards, a lowe's/home depot style store and bought a Magnavox outdoor antenna (I think they call it yagi-style). Granted it was only 30 bucks and probably about 60" in length, I was still able to pull in somewhat decent analog signals without too much trouble. But when I try to pull in the digital signal, I max out at 41%. That's the same I maxed out at with the folded dipole. It's the same across several other VHF channels, where I can get a somewhat decent analog signal, but max out at 41% when I try to pull in the digital signal. Am I doing anything wrong? Do I need a pre-amp or something (not even sure what a pre-amp does)? Would I be better off contacting the stations engineer to see if he knows of any reason I'd be having so much trouble?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by SteveMSU_
> *I hate doing this, but I'm driving myself nuts trying to get a local CBS station and have had zero luck. [...]I was still able to pull in somewhat decent analog signals without too much trouble. But when I try to pull in the digital signal, I max out at 41%. That's the same I maxed out at with the folded dipole.*



If you haven't tried it yet, this page has some good information on building your own specific frequency antenna: http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html If you add his recommended improvements at the bottom of the page, you should have a far better antenna than the VHF/UHF combo you picked up at Menard's. You might find that a stack of two of these home-built antennas is necessary for best results.


Digital VHF signals can be tricky because most areas of the country were already "saturated" with analog signals. The FCC has tried to squeeze some digital stations into the mix, but the fact is that co-channel (meaning the same channel) interference is going to be a problem for most people outside of the Grade A contours. Given the difficulty of your local environment, you've got at least two strikes against you at the get-go.


You may not be able to get better reception no matter what you do. I doubt signal strength is your real problem. You probably have more interference and ghosting than weak signal problems. (Weak signals look like "snow" on analog.) Thus a preamplifier is not going to help. All I can suggest beyond the antenna above is to use the latest tuners, with the advanced chipsets. Good luck.


----------



## Audioman1

I need a antenna that will go at least 100 miles. for 250.00$ or less. Any Suggestions? ZIP 32456


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Audioman1_
> *I need a antenna that will go at least 100 miles. for 250.00$ or less. Any Suggestions?*



Depending where you are it can be done. If you are low in between mountains forget it. If your relatively flat like in Texas may not be a problem. Give us a zip and see if one of us can help you.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by j_buckingham80_
> *How accurate, generally, are AntennaWeb's projections. I know they say they're somewhat conservative, but for me they say I can receive UHF transmissions from 120 miles away with a Violet Antenna (LD with Preamp). I read that to basically say CM 4228 + CM 7777. I can receive my local stations fine all of them. This is more basically a curiousity to me, that "conservatively" I could get 5 stations from 120 Miles away and 1 station in Reno from 140 Miles away (all Violet, not Pink). (They're analogs, but still I'm curious as it might also put me outside of some blackout areas...not that I'd ever consider that as a reason to go outside my DMA). Right now I'm have with a CM 4221 no Preamp or Amp, and do just fine for locals.*



Antennaweb is usually accurate with analogs but very conservative with digital. Have you tried getting a signal from that direction with the 4221?

If you do get a signal then the 4228 with the 7777 will probably bring them in. 140 miles is a haul for any antenna. The natural curve of the earth is the killer. I can get ground reception late night digital out to about 200 miles but not reliable enough to watch. I do have mountains and other geographical problems here not to mention 2 digital channel 7's and soon to be a third.


In my case here antennaweb says I should get 2 digitals with a violet antenna and booster. I get reliable 14 digitals with a 7777 or 12 without any amp. If they say you can get digital reception from that far I'd bet money you can.


----------



## Audioman1




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *Depending where you are it can be done. If you are low in between mountains forget it. If your relatively flat like in Texas may not be a problem. Give us a zip and see if one of us can help you.*



I need a antenna that will go at least 100 miles. for 250.00$ or less. Any Suggestions? ZIP 32456


----------



## gfgray

Audioman1, if you decide to use the Triax Unix 100A, I just bought 4 (2 extras because shipping was same) on cpcat's recomendation . This antenna only covers UHF channels 14-38 (which is why it has such good gain), so it should only be considered if you don't care about channels above 40. You would have to get a separate VHF antenna if you have VHF stations.


I don't have enough experience to feel comfortable making a recomendation. I just wanted to give you a heads up and cut your shipping costs from Great Britain in half.


----------



## gfgray

doublepost - forum was misbehaving, i swear


----------



## gfgray

triple post -


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Audioman1_
> *I need a antenna that will go at least 100 miles. for 250.00$ or less. Any Suggestions? ZIP 32456*



The best performance is separate VHF and UHF antennas. The biggest thing especially for you is antenna height. At or close to sea level, it's critical to get as much height as possible. A starting recommendation would be the XG91 for UHF on a rotor with a separate VHF antenna depending on your needs below. Even then, consistent reception much beyond 60-70 miles is often impossible. Get as much height as you can. You do live in a tropo prone area (weather conditions often allow propagation of signals over long distances) which I'm sure allows you to receive distant signals at times, but you just can't cheat the laws of physics.


----------



## cmassa

I have reliably received a signal from both PBS (KIXE-DT) and ABC (KRCR-DT) in Redding from Chico. Those stations are 67 miles away at low power (


----------



## elove

Question Regarding the Silver Sensor. I have two Silver Sensors hooked up to two separate TV's. I am using a Samsung TS-360 HD receiver on both. Would having the two silver sensors in the same room about 4 inches apart, affect their reception? I am experiencing picture break up on one particular channel. I got the searching for signal message.


----------



## Darin

*Background:*


I live in town, and my towers are in all different directions from me. This causes series issues with multipath. There are two towers, about 90° apart from one another from my location, that give me a lot of headaches: one on Ch. 39, the other on ch. 43. Both of these towers are only about a mile away. 39 is closer to the same direction of many of my other towers as 43, and I'm able to pretty much get all my stations from one antenna aimed at a compromise between them. To get 43, I had to get a second antenna, placed in my attic, aimed specifically at that tower, with the signal combined with a Jointenna specifically tuned for ch. 43. The problem is, ch. 39 and 43 are close enough frequency-wise that the filters in the jointenna don't quite have enough attenuation to keep them from interfering: I'm getting multipath on ch. 39 that is being received by the antenna aimed at 43, and not filtered enough by the jointenna to prevent disruption of my signal. I had tried a variable attenuator on the second antenna, hoping to be able to attenuate the signal enough to prevent the secondary 39 signal interfering with the primary signal, while still allowing enough of the 43 signal to get through, but I could never get a sweet spot that made both reliable: too much attenuation, and 43 came in and out, too little, and 39 came in & out due to multipath.


Last year, I swapped out my Samsung TS160 receiver with an HD-TiVo, and suddenly the problem went away. I had to move the variable attenuator to the input of the HD-TiVo, because it was getting overloaded in general (not just on 43), but it SEEMED that I was suddenly getting perfect reception on both 43 and 39. I just assumed the tuners in the TiVo just handled multipath a little better than the Samsung.


A month or two ago, the problem re-appeared. Since I got the TiVo around June or so, I'm now thinking my sudden ability to get both at the same time may have at least been partially due to leaves on the trees partially attenuating the multipath signal from 39 to the second antenna. Since DirecTV will be carrying HD locals via sat, possibly this year, I don't want to sink much more money into my antenna set-up. But I would like to do what I can to improve the situation.

*Question:*


Since channel 39's tower is so close to me (I'd have line of sight from the secondary antenna if it wasn't for my roof, and possibly some trees), could I just get some aluminum screening, staple it up in my attic in a position that would disrupt line of sight from the secondary antenna, and ground it? Would that significantly reduce the signal being received by that antenna from that tower? Since the two towers are 90° apart, I'd have no problem locating the screen in such a way that it would completely block LOS from the one tower, while not coming close to obstructing LOS from the other. But since the antenna is in the attic, I'm not sure how "direct" reception is. I don't know if radio waves continue in a direct manner to the antenna, or if passing through the roofing causes significant scattering, thereby causing the signal to come in from many different directions (therefore, getting around my screen). And I don't know how effective a grounded screen would be at attenuating a signal from a certain direction.


Any suggestions are appreciated!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by elove_
> *Would having the two silver sensors in the same room about 4 inches apart, affect their reception?*



Yes, and probably negatively. You should maintain a minimum of 36" between your UHF antennas.


----------



## nuevo_eph




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *The best performance is separate VHF and UHF antennas. The biggest thing especially for you is antenna height. At or close to sea level, it's critical to get as much height as possible. A starting recommendation would be the XG91 for UHF on a rotor with a separate VHF antenna depending on your needs below. Even then, consistent reception much beyond 60-70 miles is often impossible. Get as much height as you can. You do live in a tropo prone area (weather conditions often allow propagation of signals over long distances) which I'm sure allows you to receive distant signals at times, but you just can't cheat the laws of physics.*



Quick Question: Say you had the XG91 and wanted to pair it up with a VHF antenna, would you have to use a VHF-only antenna to pair up with? In other words, do you loose some of the UHF reception benefits of a very high-quality UHF only antenna when pairing it with a so-so U/V/FM antenna?


The reason i ask is because I am interested in a bay-style antenna since they seem to perform the best with the channels I am looking to get (all under 30), but I still want VHF SD signals. Seeing that there aren't any bay plus VHF combos out there I see the need to combine the signals. Would it be silly to attach a NICE Winegard or CM UHF (or AntennasDirect) bay-style antenna with a cheap-o Radio Shack U/V/FM antenna?


----------



## bobchase

Darin,


Yes, it is theoretically possible to make a shield just as you described. However, in the real world, it will be harder than you would think, especially in an attic. In your specific case, maybe impossible, because you live so close to the antennas you wish to block. Living that close to the antennas, you experience a significant reduction in received signal level.


If you paste the link below into your web browser, you will find two posts where I tried to explain this to the Houston OTA crowd on this forum.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...67#post4792867 


When you are closer in than 10 miles, the signal strength begins to decline significantly. In areas that are populated near the towers, broadcasters will use a trick called null fill to help those viewers out. If they didn't do that, there would be areas of NO reception (nulls).


The 1st post's PDF shows the angle of reception for the beam as you get closer to the tower. (At one mile the signal is coming down to you at about 11 degrees above the horizon for a 2000' tall tower.)


The 2nd PDF shows the beam's relative strength for a given depression angle. For my antenna, it's about one tenth of the main beam that is over your home but this antenna HAS null fill. This antenna also has a very small area where the beam just falls apart due to differential gain. That's the areas where the signal strength lines "break apart" like a string unraveling and then come back together at 10 or 11 degrees depression. Other antennas have huge areas, close in, where the diff. gain falls apart.


I don't know how the 43 and 39 antennas are built or how high they are above you. I do know that there is a very good chance that reflected signals (multi-path) are actually stronger than the direct signal from the antenna. I know that this is hard for a consumer to comprehend but it is true. At my transmitter site, I can receive ALL the other stations better than our own. Our station comes in best if I aim a directional antenna at one of the other towers. (We are all within a mile of each other in Houston.)


Attics attenuate the signal about 20 dB which means that you are receiving 1/100th of the signal in the attic as you would with the same antenna outside. The attic loss coupled with the low signal strength from the antenna puts you between a rock and a very, very, hard place.


If you can borrow a Wiengard Square Shooter (SS1000) from someone, it might be worth your while to see if a roof mounted antenna would get both stations for you. The Square Shooter is about the size of a Direct TV sat dish. In fact, it comes with an adapter pipe to allow it to be mounted on the same mount. Few homeowner associations complain about this antenna.


Another suggestion would be to talk to the Director of Engineering at WATL. He is a very sharp guy and will have the "local" knowledge that few on the forum will have.


Bob Chase

KHWB


----------



## Darin

Thanks Bob for the detailed explanation. I understand completely what you are talking bout. It makes perfect sense that my location may cause my signal to be coming in from directions besides directly from the tower, so I can see that making such a shield could prove fruitless. FWIW, the "43" antenna is the only one that is in the attic. It is a simple Radio Shack "double bowtie" indoor antenna. The a antenna that I use to pick up "39", and all of the other UHF stations, is a Wineguard PR4400, mounted to a mast on my roof. The PR4400 is aimed due north: there are several towers about three miles away north of me, "39" which is a mile away NW, and another that is less than a mile, ENE. The "43" station, however, is SW of me, and I got NOTHING from it with the PR4400, which is why I added the other antenna & Jointenna. Throughout the summer, I've had excellent reception with this setup: 90s or more on most of my stations (with the exception of the ENE station, which is in the 60s-70s, but it's mostly good enough). In fact, both 39 and 43 were very consistently 92 or better. But now, 39 ranges from being fine, around 90 at some times of the day, to having wild fluctuations, sometimes dipping to 0. It's clear that multipath through the second (indoor) antenna is the culprit, as all I have to do is unplug it's input from the jointenna, and 39 jumps back up to a solid 92-95.


So at this point, based on your input, I'm not going to try the shield, at least not yet. I'm going to get another rat-shack variable attenuator to put on the 2nd antenna, to see if I can find a balance point that reduces it's signal enough that 39's signal through that path isn't strong enough to interfere with the signal through the main antenna, yet still let enough signal through for 43 to still be received. As I said, I had tried that before with little luck, but that was with the previous receiver. Things DID seem to improve when I got the TiVo, so perhaps I'll have better luck finding a balance point. I can't help but wonder if a second jointenna, tuned to the same channel, and wired in series, wouldn't help, as I would think that it would cause more attenuation of 39 than 43, that's really more money than I want to spend at this point, since it's really a temp solution now anyway. If I could home-build a high pass filter that would attenuate 39 more than 43, that might also be a good solution, though I've not found any good guides on doing so.


----------



## cheeseman

So now that I'm totally hooked on HDTV, I've been trying like heck to get FOX - Channel 6 to come in. I do have a conventional antenna that was working OK. Was able to get all the stations except Channel 6.


So I went out and purchased a Zenith "HDTV antenna" from a local Big Box retailer. That helped get me Chaneel 6 but signal still very weak, drops out. Also, I now can not pick up Channel 58. So, I tried using the antennas in parallel. I know bad idea, don't laugh.


I do have a RCA 25dB amplifier to bost the single from the antenna.


BTW, the antennas are in the garage attic, east side of house. I live Nothwest of the stations, about 20-25 miles. So, antennas have a straight line of sight to TV stations. Area is very flat with no obstructions.


HDTV receiver is the one from DISH network.


Help!!! Thanks!!


----------



## hdtvxpert

Here in Las Vegas, we have 5 VHF digitals, the most in the country. In fact, the entire high VHF band is on the air with analog and digital signals! It sucks!


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by nuevo_eph_
> *Would it be silly to attach a NICE Winegard or CM UHF (or AntennasDirect) bay-style antenna with a cheap-o Radio Shack U/V/FM antenna?*



No. Not at all. Separate them by at least 48 inches if you can (even more if you have VHF channels in 2-6 range).


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Darin_
> *Background:
> 
> 
> I live in town, and my towers are in all different directions from me. This causes series issues with multipath. There are two towers, about 90° apart from one another from my location, that give me a lot of headaches: one on Ch. 39, the other on ch. 43. Both of these towers are only about a mile away. 39 is closer to the same direction of many of my other towers as 43, and I'm able to pretty much get all my stations from one antenna aimed at a compromise between them. To get 43, I had to get a second antenna, placed in my attic, aimed specifically at that tower, with the signal combined with a Jointenna specifically tuned for ch. 43. The problem is, ch. 39 and 43 are close enough frequency-wise that the filters in the jointenna don't quite have enough attenuation to keep them from interfering: I'm getting multipath on ch. 39 that is being received by the antenna aimed at 43, and not filtered enough by the jointenna to prevent disruption of my signal. I had tried a variable attenuator on the second antenna, hoping to be able to attenuate the signal enough to prevent the secondary 39 signal interfering with the primary signal, while still allowing enough of the 43 signal to get through, but I could never get a sweet spot that made both reliable: too much attenuation, and 43 came in and out, too little, and 39 came in & out due to multipath.
> 
> 
> Last year, I swapped out my Samsung TS160 receiver with an HD-TiVo, and suddenly the problem went away. I had to move the variable attenuator to the input of the HD-TiVo, because it was getting overloaded in general (not just on 43), but it SEEMED that I was suddenly getting perfect reception on both 43 and 39. I just assumed the tuners in the TiVo just handled multipath a little better than the Samsung.
> 
> 
> A month or two ago, the problem re-appeared. Since I got the TiVo around June or so, I'm now thinking my sudden ability to get both at the same time may have at least been partially due to leaves on the trees partially attenuating the multipath signal from 39 to the second antenna. Since DirecTV will be carrying HD locals via sat, possibly this year, I don't want to sink much more money into my antenna set-up. But I would like to do what I can to improve the situation.
> 
> 
> Question:
> 
> 
> Since channel 39's tower is so close to me (I'd have line of sight from the secondary antenna if it wasn't for my roof, and possibly some trees), could I just get some aluminum screening, staple it up in my attic in a position that would disrupt line of sight from the secondary antenna, and ground it? Would that significantly reduce the signal being received by that antenna from that tower? Since the two towers are 90° apart, I'd have no problem locating the screen in such a way that it would completely block LOS from the one tower, while not coming close to obstructing LOS from the other. But since the antenna is in the attic, I'm not sure how "direct" reception is. I don't know if radio waves continue in a direct manner to the antenna, or if passing through the roofing causes significant scattering, thereby causing the signal to come in from many different directions (therefore, getting around my screen). And I don't know how effective a grounded screen would be at attenuating a signal from a certain direction.
> 
> 
> Any suggestions are appreciated!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



I'd suggest a rotor as the easiest solution and going back to one antenna.


Assuming you don't want to do that you could also get an adjustable notch filter to notch out the undesired signal. Winegard makes one as does Blonder Tongue (expensive). There are also fixed filters available for specified channels at http://www.tinlee.com/ 


The other thing you could do is get another identical Jointenna and run one or both in series to increase the depth of the notch on the undesired signal.


----------



## Darin

Thanks for the info cpcat. A rotor is out of the question, as it's no use with a TiVo. I didn't realize that Winegard made such filters... I see they have an adjustable one, but it's $50+. As I mentioned, I don't really want to spend much on this, as I should have the option of getting HD locals from DirecTV sometime this year. The tinlee site is great... all kinds of good stuff there, but I couldn't find any prices. Since much of that is custom, I have to assume it's at LEAST as much as the Winegard adjustable filter. I thought about doing the dual jointennas in series (see my previous post), but again, that's just a little more than I want to spend. The two channels in question are: ABC, and UPN (the one on the seperate antenna). The only thing I record off UPN is Star Trek, and that's getting cancelled anyway. Just seems kind of silly going through TOO much expense just to get the last few episodes. At this point, unless anyone has any other suggestions, it seems the most cost effective solution is to try the adjustable attenuator on my second antenna input. If I CAN'T find an attenuation level that cuts enough of 39, without reducing 43 too much, then I still have several options: take it back (rat shack is pretty good about that stuff), and simply disconnect my second antenna except on friday nights when I need to record enterprise (or until the leaves come back and the problem goes away), or leave the attenuator there, and adjust it back and forth on friday nights to shift the bias towards a stable UPN, and a stable ABC. And I suppose the other reason I'm leaning towards that is because there's a rat-shack a mile from my office. It's a relatively easy, low cost thing to try.


----------



## CPanther95




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cheeseman_
> *So now that I'm totally hooked on HDTV, I've been trying like heck to get FOX - Channel 6 to come in. I do have a conventional antenna that was working OK. Was able to get all the stations except Channel 6.
> 
> 
> So I went out and purchased a Zenith "HDTV antenna" from a local Big Box retailer. That helped get me Chaneel 6 but signal still very weak, drops out. Also, I now can not pick up Channel 58. So, I tried using the antennas in parallel. I know bad idea, don't laugh.
> 
> 
> I do have a RCA 25dB amplifier to bost the single from the antenna.
> 
> 
> BTW, the antennas are in the garage attic, east side of house. I live Nothwest of the stations, about 20-25 miles. So, antennas have a straight line of sight to TV stations. Area is very flat with no obstructions.
> 
> 
> HDTV receiver is the one from DISH network.
> 
> 
> Help!!! Thanks!!*



This post just merged in.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cheeseman_
> *So now that I'm totally hooked on HDTV, I've been trying like heck to get FOX - Channel 6 to come in. I do have a conventional antenna that was working OK. Was able to get all the stations except Channel 6.
> 
> 
> So I went out and purchased a Zenith "HDTV antenna" from a local Big Box retailer. That helped get me Chaneel 6 but signal still very weak, drops out. Also, I now can not pick up Channel 58. So, I tried using the antennas in parallel. I know bad idea, don't laugh.
> 
> 
> I do have a RCA 25dB amplifier to bost the single from the antenna.
> 
> 
> BTW, the antennas are in the garage attic, east side of house. I live Nothwest of the stations, about 20-25 miles. So, antennas have a straight line of sight to TV stations. Area is very flat with no obstructions.
> *



First thing I'd try is get rid of the RCA amplifier. It's probably causing more problems for you than it solves. If that doesn't help, read on...


You probably need to get a "real" antenna, and not a gimmicky or gadget antenna. Most people here have had a lot of success with 4-bay and 8-bay bowtie style antennas like the Channel Master 3021, 4228, Winegard PR4400 and PR8800 and the Antennas Direct DB4 and DB8. Any of these should beat any antenna you purchase at Best Buy.


Indoor placement of antennas is generally bad. You should be able to get away with it as close as you are to the stations, but just know that part of your problem is that the antenna isn't "free and clear" of man-made structures.


----------



## nuevo_eph




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *No. Not at all. Separate them by at least 48 inches if you can (even more if you have VHF channels in 2-6 range).*



How will my performance w/ the UHF channels change going from just a great UHF to a bay UHF plus the UHF signal in the Radio Shack combo antennas? Will it be worse or better?


I should just ask all the EE's I work with (we design and run the VLA, seen in Contact). I guess if they can design equipment to receive and decipher radio signals from space, this shouldn't be too hard


----------



## VMsat

I finally got my new antenna, CM 4228 and CM 7777 preamp. I have a question on how I should hook up the preamp. I have voom (atleast for now it may shut down soon) and my reciever powers some antennas. I have a diplexer on the roof, then one coax coing into the house, then another diplexer in the house which splits the signal back into antenna and satellite signals. My question is where do I put the power supply for the preamp. I originally had it between the coax from the second diplexer from the ant jack then into the tv. Then I changed it to before the diplexer (I had the single coax coming into the house plugged into the power supply then out of the power supply into the second diplexer). This gave me the best ant picture but I could not get any satellite channels at all. So where do I put the power supply? Someone told me that the sat reciever should power the preamp since the diplexers are power passing, but I don't know if this is as good as the power supply that came with the preamp.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by nuevo_eph_
> *How will my performance w/ the UHF channels change going from just a great UHF to a bay UHF plus the UHF signal in the Radio Shack combo antennas? Will it be worse or better?*



You need to use an antenna joiner/combiner that has separate UHF and VHF inputs. The Channel Master 7777 preamplifier is one such combiner, but if you don't need amplification, part number #0549 is the one you need. It filters out the UHF from the combo antenna, and filters out the VHF (yes, there is some) from the UHF antenna.


----------



## nuevo_eph

wow, that is the best solution I could have asked for. Thanks.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by VMsat_
> *I finally got my new antenna, CM 4228 and CM 7777 preamp. I have a question on how I should hook up the preamp. I have voom (atleast for now it may shut down soon) and my reciever powers some antennas. I have a diplexer on the roof, then one coax coing into the house, then another diplexer in the house which splits the signal back into antenna and satellite signals. My question is where do I put the power supply for the preamp. I originally had it between the coax from the second diplexer from the ant jack then into the tv. Then I changed it to before the diplexer (I had the single coax coming into the house plugged into the power supply then out of the power supply into the second diplexer). This gave me the best ant picture but I could not get any satellite channels at all. So where do I put the power supply? Someone told me that the sat reciever should power the preamp since the diplexers are power passing, but I don't know if this is as good as the power supply that came with the preamp.*



The DC power to the antenna can't be sent through a line shared with a satellite signal since it will interfere with the DC voltage sent by the receiver to control the LNB.


There are amplifiers intended to be powered by the DC power of the satellite receiver -- I'd really not try this unless it explicitly said it was usable this way; I don't know how much current is available from the satellite receiver, and the receiver itself will vary the voltage between 13vDC and 18vDC which some preamps may not handle properly.


But the way you would do it is use a diplexer at the antenna which passes DC voltage on both sides. The Terk diplexers do it; others are available too, though the more common variety blocks DC voltage on the antenna side.


For your setup you need to get the power inserter connected inline between the antenna and that diplexer you have outside; which generally means you need to find a way to loop that run into the attic or somewhere else in the house where you can place the power inserter, since it's not weatherproof.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by nuevo_eph_
> *How will my performance w/ the UHF channels change going from just a great UHF to a bay UHF plus the UHF signal in the Radio Shack combo antennas? Will it be worse or better?
> 
> 
> I should just ask all the EE's I work with (we design and run the VLA, seen in Contact). I guess if they can design equipment to receive and decipher radio signals from space, this shouldn't be too hard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



None of the UHF signals from the combo antenna will be present if your system is properly diplexed. The CM 7777 preamp has an internal diplexer and most any uhf/vhf preamp with separate inputs should have one. You can also diplex the signal separately before amplification if you need to with a diplexer such as the CM 0549: http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm 

or pico makes a good one as well:
http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf 


Getting the separate diplexer should only be necessary if you are using a preamp with a single uhf/vhf input.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by VMsat_
> *I finally got my new antenna, CM 4228 and CM 7777 preamp. I have a question on how I should hook up the preamp. I have voom (atleast for now it may shut down soon) and my reciever powers some antennas. I have a diplexer on the roof, then one coax coing into the house, then another diplexer in the house which splits the signal back into antenna and satellite signals. My question is where do I put the power supply for the preamp. I originally had it between the coax from the second diplexer from the ant jack then into the tv. Then I changed it to before the diplexer (I had the single coax coming into the house plugged into the power supply then out of the power supply into the second diplexer). This gave me the best ant picture but I could not get any satellite channels at all. So where do I put the power supply? Someone told me that the sat reciever should power the preamp since the diplexers are power passing, but I don't know if this is as good as the power supply that came with the preamp.*



The CM 7777 runs on +18V DC. Get a voltmeter and measure what's being supplied by your VOOM receiver. If it's between +12 to +24 Volts DC you should be fine to use the power from the receiver. I've used 12 volts on the CM 7777 and it works fine. I've also powered two 7777's simultaneously from a single power supply and it works fine.


If it's not too much trouble, you might consider running a separate downlead for the antenna to bypass the satellite diplexer completely. In this case, the CM power supply would go inside next to the receiver.


----------



## SD4934

Does anybody have experience with this antenna? I put it up recently and

am having problems with one channel--51. I read a comparison of antennas and this antenna was rated highly, but with a caveat--it is a dog on channels above 50. There is another channel in my area coming on line

at 55 (the other channels are all 14,16, and 27 and they come in fine).

Since I am having problem with 51 and will have 55 to deal with in a month or so I am thinking I may need to try another antenna. My zip code is

36092 and antenna web shows I need a medium directional antenna.

I have the Channel Master 7775 pre amp that I am currently using and will be using on a new antenna if I go that direction (all my digitals are UHF--if any migrate to VHF in a few years I'll deal with that then). What is considered the best yagi or yagi style antenna for my situation? The area is fairly flat and there are no big obstructions between me and the towers

(the closest is about 14 miles away and the furtherest is about 50 miles away--that station is full power and I can get it indoors with the silver sensor antenna--but I need an outdoor antenna to get all the channels).

What about the antennas on antennas direct?


----------



## greywolf

The 7777 runs on 24VDC.


----------



## cmassa

At what length cable run should I expect to need a preamp? I just bought a DB4. When it is connected to a 30 ft piece of coax and sitting in the window of my living room I'm able to pull in all my stations, including the two low power ones 67 miles away. These are the ones I want to receive. When I move the antenna to where the diplexer is located outside I get almost nothing on the signal strength meter. The cable run is about 100-120' (I think) The antenna is pointed the same direction and the closer stations still come in. Will a preamp help me?


Chris


----------



## greywolf

Whenever a diplexer is added into the mix and signal is lost, the first thing I suspect is a bad diplexer. I'd try bypassing the diplexers and check antenna signal with the dish temporarily disconnected first. Bad diplexers occur all too frequently.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by greywolf_
> *The 7777 runs on 24VDC.*



I assume you mean it *will* run on +24V DC. The power supply that come with it is +18V DC. See http://www.channelmaster.com/home.htm 

and go to "products", then "amplifiers", then "Titan" and look at the last bulletted item.


I've measured it as well, and it's right on +18 V or pretty close.


----------



## greywolf

Then something happened. I remember the one I had a couple of years ago registered 24VDC on my voltmeter. I went through a whole rigamarole trying to find out if the Terk BMS-58 actually output the correct voltage with sufficient power from its UHF/VHF connector to power a multiswitch. That included measuring the voltage on my 7777's power supply to see if it matched the Terk's 24VDC spec and amp capacity. It did, but the Terk didn't output anything.


On the other hand, I must admit that the number of experiments I've done with stuff has exceeded my capacity to remember them all and I've been dead sure about things before that I've been dead wrong about. The published specs on the 7777 at other url's I've seen do not include voltage. I've got to wonder if the power supplies have varied.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by greywolf_
> *Then something happened. I remember the one I had a couple of years ago registered 24VDC on my voltmeter. I went through a whole rigamarole trying to find out if the Terk BMS-58 actually output the correct voltage with sufficient power from its UHF/VHF connector to power a multiswitch. That included measuring the voltage on my 7777's power supply to see if it matched the Terk's 24VDC spec and amp capacity. It did, but the Terk didn't output anything.
> 
> 
> On the other hand, I must admit that the number of experiments I've done with stuff has exceeded my capacity to remember them all and I've been dead sure about things before that I've been dead wrong about. The published specs on the 7777 at other url's I've seen do not include voltage. I've got to wonder if the power supplies have varied.*



It could just be the classic unregulated power adapter, requiring a load in order to actually see the real voltage it's going to put out. I just checked my power inserter and if it's labeled, it's on the underside and I have it screwed to a rafter so I'd have to unscrew it to confirm.


I did notice the Terk BMS-58 power adapter is labeled as 24VDC, so perhaps you're just remembering that.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cmassa_
> *At what length cable run should I expect to need a preamp? I just bought a DB4. When it is connected to a 30 ft piece of coax and sitting in the window of my living room I'm able to pull in all my stations, including the two low power ones 67 miles away. These are the ones I want to receive. When I move the antenna to where the diplexer is located outside I get almost nothing on the signal strength meter. The cable run is about 100-120' (I think) The antenna is pointed the same direction and the closer stations still come in. Will a preamp help me?
> 
> 
> Chris*



Yes, most likely. The only way it could hurt is if you have a full power station within 30 miles or so which might overload it. Multipath problems can be made worse with a preamp as well, but likely at greater distances that won't be the major problem. UHF attenuates much quicker than VHF but over 100 ft of cable run it should help both. Can't beat the CM 7777 but if you have concerns with overload from a close station you might consider one with less gain.


----------



## greywolf




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dswallow_
> *It could just be the classic unregulated power adapter, requiring a load in order to actually see the real voltage it's going to put out.*



Bingo! It was unloaded when I checked it. It's not the dumbest thing I've ever done but it's not far off. It's not like I didn't know voltage needs to be measured under load. It's kind of comforting to have an explanation though.


----------



## gfgray

My CM7777 power supply gives me 23V. Does anyone make a UHF/VHF combiner with DC pass on 2 ports? I want to couple my Research Communications UHF-only amp with a 7777 for VHF using seperate VHF and UHF antennas and only one downlead.


----------



## Darin




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gfgray_
> *Does anyone make a UHF/VHF combiner with DC pass on 2 ports?*



I don't know if that's possible, or at least practical. DC pass on both ports would mean that the two ports are electrically tied. That makes having the two ports RF separated more difficult.


----------



## greywolf

Why not use the CM7777 for both UHF and VHF? It's a perfect fit for a 2 antenna system..


----------



## citico

I have a Square Shooter for my OTA stations. As you are aware it is a

UHF antenna. Question? If I split the RG6 at the receiver and use it

for FM radio frequencies will the Fm stations be received from the

UHF antenna. I am presently not using my tuner but would like to set

it up. My HT is in the basement and naturally the shot wire antenna sent with the Yamaha won't receive but a couple of ststions. The square shooter

is mounted on the roof of the house.


----------



## gfgray

The Research Comms preamp has a 0.4 dB noise figure compared to 7777's 2.0 dB nf. I may just have to run another cable or build my own filter.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gfgray_
> *My CM7777 power supply gives me 23V. Does anyone make a UHF/VHF combiner with DC pass on 2 ports? I want to couple my Research Communications UHF-only amp with a 7777 for VHF using seperate VHF and UHF antennas and only one downlead.*



Yes.
http://www.tinlee.com/ 

You'll have to specify when you order that you want DC pass on both.

DC is 0 Hz so I don't think it's that big of a deal to do.

I have a low band vhf/high band + uhf diplexer from them which passes DC on both legs and it works well.


You'll not see any improvement using the RC amp though, or at least that's my experience. The CM 7777 is slightly better for both VHF and UHF. The RC amp is very prone to FM overload so you may need an FM trap as well if you're going to try it. Also, the RC amp will amplify both vhf and uhf, although it's advertised only for uhf. This is likely why it's so sensitive to FM.


Both the 7777 and the RC amp will work fine off the CM power supply. The RC is actually spec'd to work from between +7.5 to +30 V DC.


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by citico_
> *I have a Square Shooter for my OTA stations. As you are aware it is a
> 
> UHF antenna. Question? If I split the RG6 at the receiver and use it
> 
> for FM radio frequencies will the Fm stations be received from the
> 
> UHF antenna. I am presently not using my tuner but would like to set
> 
> it up. My HT is in the basement and naturally the shot wire antenna sent with the Yamaha won't receive but a couple of ststions. The square shooter
> 
> is mounted on the roof of the house.*



Yes, the square shooter will probably pass enough of the FM signal to give you good FM reception.


Alternatively, you could use a Wiengard CA-8800 to separate out the FM signals from the VHF/UHF signals and save 3 dB. The CA-8800 looks like a splitter but all the FM is directed to one output port and all of the TV band is directed to the other port.


Bob Chase


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by bobchase_
> *Yes, the square shooter will probably pass enough of the FM signal to give you good FM reception.
> 
> 
> Alternatively, you could use a Wiengard CA-8800 to separate out the FM signals from the VHF/UHF signals and save 3 dB. The CA-8800 looks like a splitter but all the FM is directed to one output port and all of the TV band is directed to the other port.
> 
> 
> Bob Chase*



Pretty cool. Here's a link to info on this device: http://www.winegard.com/offair/separatorsjoiners.htm 

it's at the bottom of the page.


----------



## sebenste

You want long distance UHF reception? Does 65 miles sound

too restrictive for you? How about DX'ing for *470,000 miles*?

http://internal.physics.uwa.edu.au/~agm/eme.html 


That, folks, is DX!!!


Gilbert


----------



## citico

Bob and CpCat: Thanks for the information. Will order one this week.

I knew that someone would be able to help me. Exactly what I was looking

for.


Thanks Again,


----------



## AntAltMike

It isn't so much a matter of an antenna "passing" an out of band signal as it is a matter of "developing" it. The elements in a Square Shooter are not tuned for reception in the FM band. That will be one major impediment to it developing an FM signal. If there is any kind if an internal highpass filter in the Square shooter, that would be another impediment.


Before you buy a CA-8800 diplexer, you might as well try connecting the Square Shooter antenna downlead directly to the FM tuner input to see whether you are satisfied with that reception.


You can buy either of two Winegard FM antennas that would be substantially superior to whatever FM comes out of a Square Shooter for about $20. If you are restricted to using the single coax downlead, you could combine that FM antenna lead with the Suqare Shooer lead using a hi-lo signal joiner, commonly designated as HLSJ. For that matter, anyone who wants to effieciently separate FM from UHF and VHF highband could use that same part and save about ten bucks.


----------



## citico

AntAltMike: I followed your suggestion and hooked up the antenna from the square shooter to the receiver(don't know why I did not do this before)

but it involved moving equipment etc. Any way the FM reception was terrific.

Will also check out the HLSJ.


Thanks to All


Ed


----------



## dapack5

how much of a difference could i possibly see in quality and stability in the winegard AP- series antenna pre-amps compared to my radio shack mast mount pre-amp inside power amp setup? the noise factor on my radio shack setup is 4.5 db the winegard that i'm looking at says it's 2.9db.


thanks in advance


sony 46" hdtv

samsung T451 HD receiver

radio shack VU-90 antenna ( 25 ft in the air )

radio shack mast mount pre amp and matching indoor power amp

GI 2750 c/Ku satellite receiver

dsr 905 sidecar DC2 satellite receiver


oh,and alot of headaches cause wife can't watch some of her shows without breakup of hdtv video







(


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by AntAltMike_
> *
> 
> You can buy either of two Winegard FM antennas that would be substantially superior to whatever FM comes out of a Square Shooter for about $20. If you are restricted to using the single coax downlead, you could combine that FM antenna lead with the Suqare Shooer lead using a hi-lo signal joiner, commonly designated as HLSJ. For that matter, anyone who wants to effieciently separate FM from UHF and VHF highband could use that same part and save about ten bucks.*



Are you sure a hi-lo diplexer passes UHF through the hi port? I thought it passed hi band vhf but filtered out uhf.


The one I have from Pico also seems to filter at least some of the FM band through the low port.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dapack5_
> *how much of a difference could i possibly see in quality and stability in the winegard AP- series antenna pre-amps compared to my radio shack mast mount pre-amp inside power amp setup? the noise factor on my radio shack setup is 4.5 db the winegard that i'm looking at says it's 2.9db.
> 
> 
> thanks in advance
> 
> 
> sony 46" hdtv
> 
> samsung T451 HD receiver
> 
> radio shack VU-90 antenna ( 25 ft in the air )
> 
> radio shack mast mount pre amp and matching indoor power amp
> 
> GI 2750 c/Ku satellite receiver
> 
> dsr 905 sidecar DC2 satellite receiver
> 
> 
> oh,and alot of headaches cause wife can't watch some of her shows without breakup of hdtv video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (*



Noise is the enemy. The CM 7777 has 2.0 db noise on the UHF and should be a noticeable difference. Check link under noise.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html


----------



## gjp33usa

I`ve had a big antenna and a Wine-guard antenna and I can only pick one ota channel. I`ve did the antenna-web thing and that didn`t help. My zip-code is 39465. I did get 4 of them before. I haven`t try-ed any with a amplifier though. Which antenna or amplifier would you recommend? I`m thinking about trying the square-shooter antenna. The furtherest tower away is I think about 70 miles away.


----------



## SD4934




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gjp33usa_
> *I`ve had a big antenna and a Wine-guard antenna and I can only pick one ota channel. I`ve did the antenna-web thing and that didn`t help. My zip-code is 39465. I did get 4 of them before. I haven`t try-ed any with a amplifier though. Which antenna or amplifier would you recommend? I`m thinking about trying the square-shooter antenna. The furtherest tower away is I think about 70 miles away.*



You said you got 4 channels before. Before what? What changed?

To have a shot at the furtherest signals you are going to need a pre-amp on a large (medium for most) directional antenna. What antenna do you presently have? If you have the right antenna, try it with a pre-amp such as the Channel Master 7777. (It is very doubtful that the Square Shooter will pull in a signal from 70 miles away). If you need a new antenna you could go with something like the Channel Master or Winegard 8 bay or

one of the antennas from antennasdirect.com. I'm not an expert at all, so

I'm sure some other will offer more antenna choices. But, you may have all you need except for the pre-amp (according to antennaweb.org you should be able to receive several channels without a pre amp).


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gjp33usa_
> *I haven`t try-ed any with a amplifier though. Which antenna or amplifier would you recommend?*



You're too close to some of the stations (the zip code return says 4 miles to two UHF stations) to be able to use an amplifier effectively unless you filter out the local stations. I'd recommend against an amplifier.


The SquareShooter is not a good long-range antenna. It's good for 25-35 miles under normal conditions, but then it's just not a strong performer. It's an "urban/suburban" antenna.


For long range reception, either an 8-bay bowtie antenna (CM4228) or a very big yagi (AntennasDirect91XG) is a good idea. You can read my results here:
http://www.geocities.com/figbert/ant...irect91xg.html


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by gjp33usa_
> *I`ve had a big antenna and a Wine-guard antenna and I can only pick one ota channel. I`ve did the antenna-web thing and that didn`t help. My zip-code is 39465. I did get 4 of them before. I haven`t try-ed any with a amplifier though. Which antenna or amplifier would you recommend? I`m thinking about trying the square-shooter antenna. The furtherest tower away is I think about 70 miles away.*



Assuming you gace the correct zip here's the digital only stations in your area.

* yellow - uhf WHLT-DT 58 CBS HATTIESBURG MS Currently Not Available 337° 4.0 58

* yellow - uhf WDAM-DT 7.1 NBC LAUREL MS 328° 8.3 28

* blue - uhf WLOX-DT 13.1 ABC BILOXI MS 170° 44.0 39

* violet - uhf WMAH-DT 16.1 PBS BILOXI MS 159° 44.1 16

Note:

Looks like no FOX but all the major networks shouldn't be a problem. If you are going only for the digitals the furtherest is 44 miles WMAH and WLOX. If antenna web says you can get these then they should be easy. I'd start from scratch run new cable etc. As serenger said no booster for you're too close to other stations. You may have a bad connection broken wire etc. If you have received these before then something else has gone wrong. You said you tried other antennas . Did you use the same lead in? I assume you have a rotor for the direction of each station is different. DT 16 and 39 is S to SE and DT 28 and 58 are almost 180 degrees the other direction.


----------



## dapack5

i see most all the recommendations in here are for the cm 7777,and from all i have read on the specs on the web,it seems to be highly recommended.

now,my question is this, ( since i have a chance to pick one up for next to nothing ) how do these compare with the CM-7777


1: CM 3041DSB

2: Winegard AP-8275

3: Winegard AP-8283

an out of business local shop owner says he has a couple of these,never gave me a price yet,but,said he would let them go cheap says these still list for $59.00 to $89.00 and then the line but of course that isn't what you would pay for it.

i'm looking for something better than my radio shack model that just isn't up to snuff,works but not very well


----------



## shajoe44

Without factoring in terrain, buildings, etc. What is considered a powerful station and how does station power relate to signal reception? The station I am having trouble receiving transmits at 37. kw according to the FCC site. I am 15 miles from transmitter, but do not have line of sight with the tower.


Thanks


----------



## tpalik

I am in 33327. To the north 32 miles is West Palm Beach, to the south east at 16 miles is Miami/Fort Lauderdale. The angle between each antenna farm is about 95 degrees. There are two VHF-high (8 and 13) channels in the Miami farm. I want to do an attic install so I don't lose it during hurricane season.


I've noticed that the more powerful the antenna, the narrower the beamwidth. I don't want to connect a rotor (not wife-friendly) so two antennas might be a possibility or else something like the CM2001 which is LD plus a pre-amp.


I would appreciate any pointers from people who have a similar setup. I have an RS 15-1880 right now which is omni but I have to point towards multipath to get the VHF stations so this solution is only temporary.


Cheers,

Tony


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by shajoe44_
> *Without factoring in terrain, buildings, etc. What is considered a powerful station and how does station power relate to signal reception? The station I am having trouble receiving transmits at 37. kw according to the FCC site. I am 15 miles from transmitter, but do not have line of sight with the tower.*



For low VHF (2-6), 12.5kw is full power.

For high VHF (7-13), about 60kw is full power.

For UHF (14+), 1000kw is full power.


At 15 miles, you should be able to get a 37kw station, though I doubt you'd get a .37kw station, even without line-of-sight.


I get a 6kw station at 40 miles, with no line-of-sight, though it isn't always there. (Sometimes the lock comes and goes.)


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dapack5_
> *how do these compare with the CM-7777
> 
> 
> 1: CM 3041DSB
> 
> 2: Winegard AP-8275
> 
> 3: Winegard AP-8283
> *



Not familiar with item #1 above.


#2 and #3 are identical except for their inputs - the 8283 takes 300-Ohm (twin-lead) wire, and the 8275 takes 75-Ohm (coax) in.


The Winegards probably have a little bit more noise. I've read that they are less prone to overload than the Channel Master. I use a Winegard, and am very satisfied with it.


If you get a low-noise-figure (


----------



## Xesdeeni

The CM 3041DSB is the one sold at our local Fry's . They don't have the CM7777. It looks like it's not as good as the 7777 , but would it be worth it (I'd like to be able to take it back if it doesn't help)?


Xesdeeni


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Xesdeeni_
> 
> ...but would it be worth it (I'd like to be able to take it back if it doesn't help)?
> 
> [/b]



Honestly, .2db of noise isn't going to make or break you, which appears to be the difference between the two CM models on UHF.


As to whether or not a preamp would help you, that's a complicated question made even more complicated by the fact that I don't know your location or your situation. But hey, if you can take it back if it doesn't work, what do you have to lose besides a couple of hours time?


----------



## Xesdeeni

I didn't want to go into the details and bore you 


I get good reception most of the time, but on some days, on some channels, I get breakups. I just want to max out my signal strength. Two different amps, I've now discovered are really distribution amps, didn't make a difference, although I've left them in because the antenna feeds multiple tuners. (At one point, a month or so back, I lost one channel, like a select few viewers in my area (DFW), but the station was able to finally isolate the problem and fix it--but it was a S:N issue, that I might have avoided with an amp?)


Ideally I'd add a 7777, but since I have to mailorder, if it doesn't help, it'd be a pain to return. The 3041DSB is returnable, but installation will be a PITA, so I wanted be sure I could reasonably expect something, before I went to the trouble.


Xesdeeni


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Xesdeeni_
> *I get good reception most of the time, but on some days, on some channels, I get breakups. I just want to max out my signal strength.*



You still haven't told me how far you are from the stations. As a general rule, if you're less than 25 miles, an amplifier is a bad idea. If you're over 25 miles away from all of your television stations, it's worth trying.


----------



## holl_ands

If you have a 300 ohm antenna (and most of them are), then the 300 ohm input models (i.e. CM Spartan) are 1-2 dB better than the 75 ohm input models (i.e. CM Titan CM777).


The Spartan models specify a 2.2 dB Noise Figure, which includes the loss in the internal balun transformer. The Titan models specify a 2.0 dB Noise Figure, which will be degraded by the external balun transformer (about 1-2 dB in the CM Balun).


----------



## Xesdeeni




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *You still haven't told me how far you are from the stations. As a general rule, if you're less than 25 miles, an amplifier is a bad idea. If you're over 25 miles away from all of your television stations, it's worth trying.*



35.9-38.2 miles, but the (CM3018) antenna is inside the attic.


> Quote:
> _Originally posted by holl_ands_
> *If you have a 300 ohm antenna (and most of them are), then the 300 ohm input models (i.e. CM Spartan) are 1-2 dB better than the 75 ohm input models (i.e. CM Titan CM777).
> 
> 
> The Spartan models specify a 2.2 dB Noise Figure, which includes the loss in the internal balun transformer. The Titan models specify a 2.0 dB Noise Figure, which will be degraded by the external balun transformer (about 1-2 dB in the CM Balun).*



So since my antenna is a 300-ohm, the CM3041DSB is really the same or better than the 7777? Sweet!


Thanks for the great help!


Xesdeeni


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by AntAltMike_
> *It isn't so much a matter of an antenna "passing" an out of band signal as it is a matter of "developing" it. The elements in a Square Shooter are not tuned for reception in the FM band. That will be one major impediment to it developing an FM signal. If there is any kind if an internal highpass filter in the Square shooter, that would be another impediment.
> 
> 
> Before you buy a CA-8800 diplexer, you might as well try connecting the Square Shooter antenna downlead directly to the FM tuner input to see whether you are satisfied with that reception.
> 
> 
> You can buy either of two Winegard FM antennas that would be substantially superior to whatever FM comes out of a Square Shooter for about $20. If you are restricted to using the single coax downlead, you could combine that FM antenna lead with the Suqare Shooer lead using a hi-lo signal joiner, commonly designated as HLSJ. For that matter, anyone who wants to effieciently separate FM from UHF and VHF highband could use that same part and save about ten bucks.*



Whether on a mast or in the attic, the square shooter "develops" FM stations as good as it does the high-band TV signals. Additionally an FM receiver requires significantly less signal for full quieting than a TV receiver does. What that means is, the square shooter makes a good FM antenna for the stations it is aimed at.


In fact, compared to the Houston digital TV stations I have measured with the square shooter, the FM station levels are right in the middle of the UHF levels.


Bob Chase

KHWB-TV


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Xesdeeni_
> *35.9-38.2 miles, but the (CM3018) antenna is inside the attic.So since my antenna is a 300-ohm, the CM3041DSB is really the same or better than the 7777? Sweet!
> 
> 
> Thanks for the great help!
> 
> 
> Xesdeeni*



The other advantage (maybe even more important) is that the CM 3041 has less gain on both vhf and uhf and at your distance that's probably good as you'll be less likely to run into any overload problems. It also has just a single combined uhf'vhf input whereas the CM 7777 has both combined and separate. Doesn't sound like you need separate inputs with the combo antenna.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by bobchase_
> *Whether on a mast or in the attic, the square shooter "develops" FM stations as good as it does the high-band TV signals.*



Just looking at the frequency maps, wouldn't the Square Shooter 'develop' FM stations as well as it does the low-band TV signals? Channel 6 ends at 88Mhz, the start of the FM range. Channel 7 starts at 175 Mhz, well above the top of the FM broadcast range.


----------



## Mike52

I could use some expert advice. I live in a very bad reception area: tall trees to the SW and S of me (towards most of the towers), and the distance of the towers range from 2-49 miles (with hills in the way). I have no direct line of sight to any of the towers (due to trees and high hills). Directions range about 160 degrees to the several towers.

Do I have a prayer for getting any OTA reception? And if so, what kind of equipment do I need?


Thanks,

Mike52


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Mike52_
> *I could use some expert advice. I live in a very bad reception area: tall trees to the SW and S of me (towards most of the towers), and the distance of the towers range from 2-49 miles (with hills in the way). I have no direct line of sight to any of the towers (due to trees and high hills). Directions range about 160 degrees to the several towers.
> 
> Do I have a prayer for getting any OTA reception? And if so, what kind of equipment do I need?*



Yes, you have a prayer. It may not be much more than that, or it may be a lot more than that. But you'll definitely need a rotor - no antenna covers 160 degrees very well.


If you haven't read my 91XG story yet, it's probably a good place to start. I have line-of-sight to towers that are about 30 miles away. I don't have line-of-sight to stations any further than that, yet I get reception from over 80 miles away, given the right conditions.
http://www.geocities.com/figbert/ant...irect91xg.html 


Depending on how close those hills are and how tall they are, you'll either be fine or in a heap of trouble.


----------



## Tony Nx

Just to clear up a possible misconception regarding preamps. The preamp is placed at or as near as practical to the antenna itself. It's purpose is raise the amplitude of weak signals to make up for the signal loss due to the length of the cable from the antenna to the receiver. The first RF stage in any receiver is beset by thermal noise. Desired signals must be strong enough to overcome this unavoidable phenomenon. The preamp simply brings weak signals up to a level that, after the loss in the antenna cable, is at a level sufficient to overcome the receiver's inherent noise. It is not noise picked up by the cable itself. Coax is well shielded, thus doesn't pick up significant noise normally. One caveat: if the signals at the antenna are particularly strong use of a preamp to further strengthen them could overload the receiver. In that case a preamp would not be used. What I do not know is if the power supply for the preamp failes or is purposly disconnected, will the preamp pass signals without significant loss. Can anyone answer that??


----------



## holl_ands

When the power is turned off, the preamps that I've used no longer pass any signals, except whatever may leak across at a much, much lower signal level.


The overall tuner sensitivity is measured by the Noise Factor (NF), which indicates how strong the minimum "acceptable" signal level is relative to the Thermal Noise Floor.


A typical Tuner has a NF of perhaps 7 dB (per ATSC recommendation) and a maximum NF of 14 dB (per FCC regulation). Any cable and RF Splitter loss between the Tuner and the antenna directly adds to the overall Noise Figure. So without a preamp, the overall system NF may be 10-20 dB.


When you add a preamp, the cable, RF Splitter and Tuner NF still contribute to the overall system NF, but the contribution is reduced by the amount of gain in the preamp. In most systems, this contribution is therefore reduced to only 1 or 2 dB. So with a preamp, the overall NF may be on the order of only 3-6 dB (1.5 dB if use external Balun, 2.0 dB if use CM7777, 1-2 dB after preamp). This is why a preamp is so important, unless nearby signals (less than about 5 miles) are expected to be a problem.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Tony Nx_
> *One caveat: if the signals at the antenna are particularly strong use of a preamp to further strengthen them could overload the receiver. In that case a preamp would not be used. What I do not know is if the power supply for the preamp failes or is purposly disconnected, will the preamp pass signals without significant loss. Can anyone answer that??*



Most preamps either won't pass a signal when unpowered or will severely attenuate it. If comparing between preamp and no preamp, always take the preamp/power supply completely out of the signal path.


*Preamp* overload is probably the more common problem with strong signals, although I have had receiver overload/interference occur especially with FM. Lower gain (


----------



## imott




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Tony Nx_
> *What I do not know is if the power supply for the preamp failes or is purposly disconnected, will the preamp pass signals without significant loss. Can anyone answer that??*



I contacted Channel Master a few weeks ago to ask this question. None of the Channel Master preamps pass signal when the power is removed.


i


----------



## j_buckingham80

Can an amplifier or pre-amp work around all signal-loss in a long cable run/splitter? Or will their always be loss. Can you buy a big enough amp to split a cable 4 ways with no problems? For example, I have a 50 ft. RG-6 cable that runs to my TV directly from the antenna. If I run that cable to the Television Box (where all the inhouse wires run in and out of, the total cabling will be about 125 ft. with a 4-way splitter (7db loss). Will an amplifier or pre-amplifier prevent that cable and splitter loss from being an issue or can noise overtake the signal even if amplified at the mast or directly after the mast (for a dist. amp)?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by j_buckingham80_
> *Can an amplifier or pre-amp work around all signal-loss in a long cable run/splitter? Or will their always be loss. Can you buy a big enough amp to split a cable 4 ways with no problems? For example, I have a 50 ft. RG-6 cable that runs to my TV directly from the antenna. If I run that cable to the Television Box (where all the inhouse wires run in and out of, the total cabling will be about 125 ft. with a 4-way splitter (7db loss). Will an amplifier or pre-amplifier prevent that cable and splitter loss from being an issue or can noise overtake the signal even if amplified at the mast or directly after the mast (for a dist. amp)?*



If your signal is good at the distribution point already, just use a distribution amp placed in-line at that point. If you are > 35 miles from your closest full power station, consider using a preamp on the antenna and most likely it will provide the gain for distribution as well. Those of us who are in the fringe >65 miles out might actually require both if distributing to multiple sets, but I'd always use a preamp on the antenna first and then add the dist. amp only if needed.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by j_buckingham80_
> *Can an amplifier or pre-amp work around all signal-loss in a long cable run/splitter?*



No, but it can offset a lot of it. If you have strong signals to begin with, you'll be fine. But if you're dealing with weak signals, even splitting the signal once could be enough to drop you below the noise floor.


I used to use a three-way splitter and some of my weaker stations wouldn't come in. I switched to a direct connection and they were much better. Granted, closer stations were just fine, no matter how many times I split the signal.


----------



## dapack5

after much debating i decided to give this amplifier a try,needless to say i was less than impressed! i tried it with several different antennas and my radio shack unit out performed this one ( on all antennas ). so it's a trip back to the store and return it for a full refund! with my radio shack unit i can lock and hold channel 29 from west palm beach and i am 99 miles ( via driving ) from west palm and i also get cbs-4 from miami ( 149 miles away )

not all the time but just about all evening and into the late morning hours.


i may tru the 7777 unit after i get a little more cash flow.


how do i post a picture of my antenna so if anyone has one or more info on it,it can be passed along?


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dapack5_
> 
> how do i post a picture of my antenna so if anyone has one or more info on it,it can be passed along?



You can post a picture by following the below specific directions.



Adding Images


To include a picture or graphic within the body of your message, you can simply surround the address of the image as shown here:











Note that the http:// part of the image URL is required for the code.


You can even create a thumbnail-type hyperlink by surrounding your [img] code with a [url] code like this:

[URL='http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/avsforum-logo.jpg'][IMG]http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/vb_bullet.gif[/URL]


----------



## Bill Johnson

I did not successfully cut and paste in my previous post, so for complete directions you need to cursor down this page and click on IMG in box at lower left.


----------



## firemantom26

I had a chance to look today at my antenna( Channel Master 4228 8-Bay Bowtie UHF Antenna )installation that I had done in Feb. Coming from my antenna he has RG-59 inside to my (Channel Master 7777 VHF/UHF Preamplifier) than into a spliter to one TV using RG6 that is a short run and another that runs around 120 FT using RG-6 and on that run there is a double male connecting the cable. Why I don't Know. My question is going to effect any recption using two different types of cables and that he used a double male to connect one going to the other cable going to my other TV?


Thank You


----------



## JLaamanen

Hi guys,


I got a new Pio plasma and hooked it up to the attic antenna (condo) I had installed when it was built about 15 yrs ago. I don't know what it is and haven't been up there yet to look.


I get from the high 70s to low 90s on sig strength screen, which is not easy to monitor when watching. I've seen some dropouts or freezes for up to a few seconds which I think *may* be associated with rain or possibly wind or fog(!)? When conditions are right for this, the signal goes down to 40 or 50 briefly. (Is it likely that this is multipath?)


This is what antennaweb shows:


DTV Antenna


* red - uhf WWJ-DT 62.1 CBS DETROIT MI 200° 14.1 44

* red - uhf WTVS-DT 43.1 PBS DETROIT MI 200° 14.1 43

* red - uhf WXYZ-DT 7.1 ABC DETROIT MI 218° 14.1 41

* red - uhf WKBD-DT 50.1 UPN DETROIT MI 230° 15.3 14

* red - uhf WDWB-DT 20.1 WB DETROIT MI 200° 14.1 21

* red - uhf WJBK-DT 2.1 FOX DETROIT MI 210° 13.9 58

* red - uhf WDIV-DT 4.1 NBC DETROIT MI 210° 12.3 45

* red - uhf WADL-DT 39.1 IND MOUNT CLEMENS MI 126° 12.9 39


From what I've read here, I get the impression that:


1. Multipath may be my problem vs. signal "strength".

2. An amp may cause a problem instead of solve it.


I haven't seen much about how directional antennas are and I wonder if I don't have a highly directional one, would one be likely to solve my problem since these stations that I'm interested in are within 30 deg?

(Any recommendations, assuming I can fit it in.)


Is there any easy way to verify the coax and connectors are good? (With ohm meter etc?)


Would it be foolish to try a preamp halfway between the antenna and TV, where I have a coupling for the coax already?


Thanks for any comments.


John


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by firemantom26_
> 
> I had a chance to look today at my antenna( Channel Master 4228 8-Bay Bowtie UHF Antenna )installation that I had done in Feb. Coming from my antenna he has RG-59 inside to my (Channel Master 7777 VHF/UHF Preamplifier) than into a spliter to one TV using RG6 that is a short run and another that runs around 120 FT using RG-6 and on that run there is a double male connecting the cable. Why I don't Know. My question is going to effect any recption using two different types of cables and that he used a double male to connect one going to the other cable going to my other TV?



I'm not sure if I'm envisioning this setup but if your reception has no problems I believe you're OK. If it were me, I'd change out that RG-59 to QS RG-6 but that's just me. The splitter is probably power passive on only one port so that amplification is just serving one tv, the long run one. The installer must have not had a long piece of cable so he spliced two with a double male. This will cause some signal loss but may be overcome by the pre-amp. Now perhaps an expert can chime in.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by JLaamanen_
> *1. Is it likely that this is multipath?
> 
> 
> 2. I haven't seen much about how directional antennas are and I wonder if I don't have a highly directional one, would one be likely to solve my problem since these stations that I'm interested in are within 30 deg?
> 
> 
> 3. Is there any easy way to verify the coax and connectors are good? (With ohm meter etc?)
> 
> 
> 4. Would it be foolish to try a preamp halfway between the antenna and TV, where I have a coupling for the coax already?
> *



1. Probably. But diagnosing reception problems with digital meters is never easy. If you have UHF analog stations broadcasting from the same towers at the same relative power (take digital and multiply by 5 for analog equivalent) then watching them can tell you what the problem is. Does the picture get very snowy? Or do you get moving ghosts? The answer to that question will tell you the answer to your problem. Snow = weak signals. Ghosts = multipath.


2. 30 degrees is not a directional antenna. A directional antenna should have an acceptance angle of less than 10 degrees. Examples include the Channel Master 4228 and the Antennas Direct 91XG. Either of these would probably require a rotor.


3. If you're getting signals that are routinely in the 70s+, your coax is most probably good. If you consistently had problems above or below a certain frequency, things would be different.


4. Foolish? If you've got snow on the analog test in answer #1 above, no. If you've got any ghosting now or when you have issues, yes.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by JLaamanen_
> *Hi guys,
> 
> 
> I got a new Pio plasma and hooked it up to the attic antenna (condo) I had installed when it was built about 15 yrs ago. I don't know what it is and haven't been up there yet to look.
> 
> 
> I get from the high 70s to low 90s on sig strength screen, which is not easy to monitor when watching. I've seen some dropouts or freezes for up to a few seconds which I think *may* be associated with rain or possibly wind or fog(!)? When conditions are right for this, the signal goes down to 40 or 50 briefly. (Is it likely that this is multipath?)
> 
> 
> This is what antennaweb shows:
> 
> 
> DTV Antenna
> 
> 
> * red - uhf WWJ-DT 62.1 CBS DETROIT MI 200° 14.1 44
> 
> * red - uhf WTVS-DT 43.1 PBS DETROIT MI 200° 14.1 43
> 
> * red - uhf WXYZ-DT 7.1 ABC DETROIT MI 218° 14.1 41
> 
> * red - uhf WKBD-DT 50.1 UPN DETROIT MI 230° 15.3 14
> 
> * red - uhf WDWB-DT 20.1 WB DETROIT MI 200° 14.1 21
> 
> * red - uhf WJBK-DT 2.1 FOX DETROIT MI 210° 13.9 58
> 
> * red - uhf WDIV-DT 4.1 NBC DETROIT MI 210° 12.3 45
> 
> * red - uhf WADL-DT 39.1 IND MOUNT CLEMENS MI 126° 12.9 39
> 
> 
> From what I've read here, I get the impression that:
> 
> 
> 1. Multipath may be my problem vs. signal "strength".
> 
> 2. An amp may cause a problem instead of solve it.
> 
> 
> I haven't seen much about how directional antennas are and I wonder if I don't have a highly directional one, would one be likely to solve my problem since these stations that I'm interested in are within 30 deg?
> 
> (Any recommendations, assuming I can fit it in.)
> 
> 
> Is there any easy way to verify the coax and connectors are good? (With ohm meter etc?)
> 
> 
> Would it be foolish to try a preamp halfway between the antenna and TV, where I have a coupling for the coax already?
> 
> 
> Thanks for any comments.
> 
> 
> John*



You need to get up there and take a picture of the antenna and post it here. At your distance, a CM 4221 should work and has a beamwidth of around 60 degrees. If you're already using something equivalent though, you'll have to go bigger. Sometimes attics can really block the signals. If you can't get the pic at least desribe what it looks like.


----------



## JLaamanen

Thanks guys,


Good ideas.


I really should go up there and look, see and take a pic. Also setting up second tv for seeing ghosts vs. snow when it acts up.


(Or get cable










Thanks for ideas.


John


----------



## ChrisDuncan

What do you think of the XG91 antenna for my situation?

WPXS 13 PAX MOUNT VERNON IL 351° 15.0 13

* lt green - uhf WSIU-DT 40.1 PBS CARBONDALE IL 233° 25.4 40

* blue - uhf WSIL-DT 3.1 ABC HARRISBURG IL 181° 49.5 34

blue - vhf WSIU 8 PBS CARBONDALE IL 233° 25.4 8

* violet - uhf WPXS-DT 21 PAX MOUNT VERNON IL TBD 296° 36.1 21

violet - vhf WSIL 3 ABC HARRISBURG IL 181° 49.5 3

violet - vhf KFVS 12 CBS CAPE GIRARDEAU MO 210° 71.0 12

violet - uhf KBSI 23 FOX CAPE GIRARDEAU MO 212° 73.9 23

violet - vhf KSDK 5 NBC ST. LOUIS MO 283° 80.5 5

violet - vhf WPSD 6 NBC PADUCAH KY 185° 78.8 6

violet - uhf WDKA 49 WB PADUCAH KY 184° 64.7 49

violet - vhf KTVI 2 FOX ST. LOUIS MO 281° 82.3 2

violet - uhf KDNL 30 ABC ST. LOUIS MO 284° 80.5 30

violet - vhf KPLR 11 WB ST. LOUIS MO 282° 78.2 11

violet - vhf KMOV 4 CBS ST. LOUIS MO 282° 78.2 4


Since I had Voom installed with their Winegard batwing antenna I always get ABC and PBS. The ABC station I get is 50 miles away.


A few times I've gotten FOx and CBS to come in, and they're 71 and 73.9 miles away. Would it be worth my effort to try the XG91 with an amplifier? I'd probably also find a way to mount it higher, too, since the Winegard is on a low part of the roof of my guest house (only about 10' high).


Finally, if I did use the XG91 and an amp, could I use the diplexor supplied by Voom to power the amp? The diplexor is made by Winegard and is 12V. Or should I just run a separate line?


Mainly I'm just wondering if it's worth my while to even try to pull in these distant locals. I'd really love to get them, though.


Thanks


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *2. 30 degrees is not a directional antenna. A directional antenna should have an acceptance angle of less than 10 degrees.*



Wow, you have a high standard for what you consider a directional antenna!

Would you consider the Winegard PR-4400 to be not directional from this

plot (even though the beamwidth is around 30 degrees)?

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w4400.html 


Ron


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ChrisDuncan_
> *A few times I've gotten FOx and CBS to come in, and they're 71 and 73.9 miles away. Would it be worth my effort to try the XG91 with an amplifier? I'd probably also find a way to mount it higher, too, since the Winegard is on a low part of the roof of my guest house (only about 10' high).
> 
> 
> Finally, if I did use the XG91 and an amp, could I use the diplexor supplied by Voom to power the amp? The diplexor is made by Winegard and is 12V. Or should I just run a separate line?*



If you've gotten locks on Fox and CBS at 71 and 73.9 miles away with the "batwing" antenna, you've got an excellent chance of getting solid reception with the AntennasDirect 91XG under similar circumstances. (Note: Whenever receiving signals over the horizon, too many factors to list, including weather and humidity, tree foliage, topography, etc. come into play. One should never expect perfect, 100% reliable reception in such situations, but must take a "beating the laws of physics" approach, being grateful for what comes in.) If you were only getting those signals during strong tropospheric events, you might not be able to get them with any antenna.


If you haven't read my review of the 91XG, I strongly advise you to do so:
http://www.geocities.com/figbert/ant...irect91xg.html 


For what it's worth, I have gotten locks on stations as far as 89 miles away (reliable and consistent) with my 91XG, with no line-of-sight, and the transmitting station was only at 500kw. My terrain is hostile to reception, and this antenna still performs like a champ. I do not, however, get that station every time I point my antenna in that direction, and it does sometimes suffer from breakups and dropouts. My experience is not "normal" and no one should expect to get similar performance from this or any antenna due to the large variety of factors involved in reception.


I'd run a separate cable. Diplexers cost you some signal, even if they're "perfect", so if your goal is to get the best you can, you'll need that extra oomph of performance.


You'll also probably need a rotor, as the 91XG is very directional, unless all your channels that you want are within 20 degrees or so.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dr1394_
> *Wow, you have a high standard for what you consider a directional antenna!
> 
> Would you consider the Winegard PR-4400 to be not directional from this
> 
> plot (even though the beamwidth is around 30 degrees)?*



I do not consider the PR-4400 to be very directional. All antennas are "somewhat" directional, but when you're trying to eliminate multipath problems, you need a very narrow acceptance angle.


I get discernable differences in reception strength on local signals when I move my antenna 10 degrees. I get discernable differences in reception strength on distant (75 mile) signals with changes of 2 degrees. *THAT* is directional.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ChrisDuncan_
> *What do you think of the XG91 antenna for my situation?
> 
> WPXS 13 PAX MOUNT VERNON IL 351° 15.0 13
> 
> * lt green - uhf WSIU-DT 40.1 PBS CARBONDALE IL 233° 25.4 40
> 
> * blue - uhf WSIL-DT 3.1 ABC HARRISBURG IL 181° 49.5 34
> 
> blue - vhf WSIU 8 PBS CARBONDALE IL 233° 25.4 8
> 
> * violet - uhf WPXS-DT 21 PAX MOUNT VERNON IL TBD 296° 36.1 21
> 
> violet - vhf WSIL 3 ABC HARRISBURG IL 181° 49.5 3
> 
> violet - vhf KFVS 12 CBS CAPE GIRARDEAU MO 210° 71.0 12
> 
> violet - uhf KBSI 23 FOX CAPE GIRARDEAU MO 212° 73.9 23
> 
> violet - vhf KSDK 5 NBC ST. LOUIS MO 283° 80.5 5
> 
> violet - vhf WPSD 6 NBC PADUCAH KY 185° 78.8 6
> 
> violet - uhf WDKA 49 WB PADUCAH KY 184° 64.7 49
> 
> violet - vhf KTVI 2 FOX ST. LOUIS MO 281° 82.3 2
> 
> violet - uhf KDNL 30 ABC ST. LOUIS MO 284° 80.5 30
> 
> violet - vhf KPLR 11 WB ST. LOUIS MO 282° 78.2 11
> 
> violet - vhf KMOV 4 CBS ST. LOUIS MO 282° 78.2 4
> 
> 
> Since I had Voom installed with their Winegard batwing antenna I always get ABC and PBS. The ABC station I get is 50 miles away.
> 
> 
> A few times I've gotten FOx and CBS to come in, and they're 71 and 73.9 miles away. Would it be worth my effort to try the XG91 with an amplifier? I'd probably also find a way to mount it higher, too, since the Winegard is on a low part of the roof of my guest house (only about 10' high).
> 
> 
> Finally, if I did use the XG91 and an amp, could I use the diplexor supplied by Voom to power the amp? The diplexor is made by Winegard and is 12V. Or should I just run a separate line?
> 
> 
> Mainly I'm just wondering if it's worth my while to even try to pull in these distant locals. I'd really love to get them, though.
> 
> 
> Thanks*



I also got VOOM installed and have both their Bat wing antenna and the 91 XG. The batwing did suprizingly well. It picked up out to 70 miles with a full power digital station and no weather issues. The big difference is the hard to get channels. I get 14 digitals here with the 91XG. 7 are very hard to get but lock with no drops using the 91xg. The Batwing got only the 5 strongest. So you stand a good chance with the 91xg. The VOOM receiver is fickle though and I get one signal in the 92 range it refuses to lock on. My old Dish 811 had no problem and did a smidget better the the Motorola. I just had to have more HD,analog is very unexciting anymore.


----------



## jimc705

Finally, if I did use the XG91 and an amp, could I use the diplexor supplied by Voom to power the amp?


Opps forgot ! Yes the Moto will supply voltage through the their diplexer. However since I have several digitals very close to not getting I removed their diplexer and ran a seperate antenna coax. You can always try it with their diplexer first and then run a seperate line if needed. Be sure you have a DC pass diplexer at the satellite end also. If you had their Batwing then you should have the DC pass diplexer.


----------



## quarque

I know the 4228 has been beat to death on AVS for years now but one poster in our local forum insists that it is NOT directional, does NOT do well in trees and has nothing to recommend it over the 4248 or others. Here is a sample post:


"The 4228 is NOT directional, really. A meter will prove it. At first you might think that, but if you saw what's on the meters scope, and how it's reacting to the small movements, it would show a classic case of Nulling, or one half partially cancelling the other half. The 4228 is two horizontally stacked 4221's. Each has a very wide path, but because they're side by side, and you are going through a bunch of trees, one half is getting a slightly different waveshape than the other. The trees are most likely blocking some of the signal, a little differently, to each half. Not much, but enough to cause the sensitivity to direction. It may be multipath, too, but signal gets more blockage from trees than bounce. That's one reason I'm not fond of the 4228 in the trees, and haven't needed or used one in 7 years. The 4221 by its self doesn't have this problem, and can out perform it in the trees. BUT, the 4248 still does better than either in trees and weaker areas."


What do you experts think of this? Is the 4228 overrated? Does the theory about trees affecting each half differently make sense?


Are there any installers here that have experience with 4228, 4248 and others? Does the 4228 ever outshine another antenna in an A-B test? Does the 4228 NOT work well close in (


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by quarque_
> *I know the 4228 has been beat to death on AVS for years now but one poster in our local forum insists that it is NOT directional, does NOT do well in trees and has nothing to recommend it over the 4248 or others. Here is a sample post:
> 
> 
> "The 4228 is NOT directional, really. A meter will prove it. At first you might think that, but if you saw what's on the meters scope, and how it's reacting to the small movements, it would show a classic case of Nulling, or one half partially cancelling the other half. The 4228 is two horizontally stacked 4221's. Each has a very wide path, but because they're side by side, and you are going through a bunch of trees, one half is getting a slightly different waveshape than the other. The trees are most likely blocking some of the signal, a little differently, to each half. Not much, but enough to cause the sensitivity to direction. It may be multipath, too, but signal gets more blockage from trees than bounce. That's one reason I'm not fond of the 4228 in the trees, and haven't needed or used one in 7 years. The 4221 by its self doesn't have this problem, and can out perform it in the trees. BUT, the 4248 still does better than either in trees and weaker areas."
> 
> 
> What do you experts think of this? Is the 4228 overrated? Does the theory about trees affecting each half differently make sense?
> 
> 
> Are there any installers here that have experience with 4228, 4248 and others? Does the 4228 ever outshine another antenna in an A-B test? Does the 4228 NOT work well close in (*


----------



## quarque

cpcat - I think you missed my point. You see, I'm already a huge fan of the 4228 and know all about it. But this guy keeps bad-mouthing it - which I think is a disservice to other members if it is universally accepted as "one of the best". I am looking for feedback on his specific theories about why it is "not good in trees" etc. He does not consider it directional because "paper specs are one thing but the meter don't lie". He is an installer and tried one a few times many years ago with mixed results. It is now collecting dust in his garage. Every time I recommend a 4228 he shoots it down with his "not directional" and "not good in trees" etc. All this seems totally counter to 5 years of AVS experience by dozens of members. How do you tell a "know-it-all" that he doesn't...


----------



## Jim1348

I just switched to a plasma set and a DISH 811 receiver. Now I need a better antenna for UHF. Since I already have a DISH antenna and feedline, can I add a UHF antenna nearby and then diplex that signal down the existing feedline and then split it near the monitor and feed it into the set that way?


----------



## sebenste

Quarque,


I have put up one of my own, know another guy 1 mile east of me who

has done so. We live 30 miles southeast of Rockford, IL...or 65 miles

west of Chicago. Yet, we can both lock WHA-DT from Madison, WI.

Consistently. Oh, yeah, we're roughly 85 miles away from their 100 kw

ERP transmitter. We both have our antennas in attics, and we're both

rather low in elevation, close to a river.


To have that kind of reception requires:


1. An antenna with high front-to-back gain

2. High directionality, knocking down or eliminating multipath ("ghosts")

3. A very good preamp (such as the ChannelMaster 7777)

4. Carefully pointing it in the right direction

5. RG-6 or RG-11 lead-in cable, preferably the latter

6. Very good to excellent connectors AND connections


If ANY of these are missing, great reception doesn't happen. Period.

Physics says so. End of story. On a side note, I still say the 4228

does best at general UHF reception, but you may have a case for

slightly better UHF reception at or below channel 32 on the

AntennasDirect 91XG, since that part of the UHF dial uses the

seemingly great quality reflector screen on it. Just a guess on my part.

The XG-91 will outperform a 4228, my guess again, if you are in an

area requiring a long-distance reception of channels, and you are

subject to multipath.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sebenste_
> *On a side note, I still say the 4228
> 
> does best at general UHF reception, but you may have a case for
> 
> slightly better UHF reception at or below channel 32 on the
> 
> AntennasDirect 91XG, since that part of the UHF dial uses the
> 
> seemingly great quality reflector screen on it. Just a guess on my part.
> 
> The XG-91 will outperform a 4228, my guess again, if you are in an
> 
> area requiring a long-distance reception of channels, and you are
> 
> subject to multipath.*



The 4228 will most likely better the XG91 slightly on the lower channels while the XG91 will be best in the upper ranges. The lower you go, the less gain the Yagi/Corner reflector has as it's typically designed for gain in the upper range (if designed for wideband uhf). The "corner reflector" increases the gain on the lower channels to some extent, but not enough to keep the gain curve from dropping off below the range at which the yagi part is optimized for. See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by quarque_
> *cpcat - I think you missed my point. You see, I'm already a huge fan of the 4228 and know all about it. But this guy keeps bad-mouthing it - which I think is a disservice to other members if it is universally accepted as "one of the best". I am looking for feedback on his specific theories about why it is "not good in trees" etc. He does not consider it directional because "paper specs are one thing but the meter don't lie". He is an installer and tried one a few times many years ago with mixed results. It is now collecting dust in his garage. Every time I recommend a 4228 he shoots it down with his "not directional" and "not good in trees" etc. All this seems totally counter to 5 years of AVS experience by dozens of members. How do you tell a "know-it-all" that he doesn't...*



Trees cause multipath. Horizontal stacking (as in stacking two 4221's i.e. the 4228) narrows horizontal beamwidth, increases forward gain, increases front to back ratio and rejects multipath. The "nulling" he's referring to is simply the intended result of stacking. Read the link I gave and it will help you.


Also, you may just need to learn to ignore this guy.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jim1348_
> *I just switched to a plasma set and a DISH 811 receiver. Now I need a better antenna for UHF. Since I already have a DISH antenna and feedline, can I add a UHF antenna nearby and then diplex that signal down the existing feedline and then split it near the monitor and feed it into the set that way?*



Jim,

The quick answer is YES! Depending how close and how strong the UHF digitals are in your area. Diplexers will decrease reception a little and can cause other reception problems. Usually if the signals are strong and steady you can diplex with no problems.


----------



## ChrisDuncan




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *Finally, if I did use the XG91 and an amp, could I use the diplexor supplied by Voom to power the amp?
> 
> 
> Opps forgot ! Yes the Moto will supply voltage through the their diplexer. However since I have several digitals very close to not getting I removed their diplexer and ran a seperate antenna coax. You can always try it with their diplexer first and then run a seperate line if needed. Be sure you have a DC pass diplexer at the satellite end also. If you had their Batwing then you should have the DC pass diplexer.*



Thank you very much for the info.


I'm now trying to decide between the XG91 and the CM4228. There's a place that sells the 4228 right down the road from me so I wouldn't have to order it, and could get it right away. Money isn't the issue, I just want whichever one is best.


Specifically, I want to get CBS and Fox (71 & 73 miles away). If I could get NBC at 78 miles away that would be great too, but not all that important to me (I need abc, cbs, and fox for sports).


The local dealer also has everything I need for mounting the antenna. I'm thinking of buying a 30' telescoping mast and maybe a rotor..


sregener, I read your review and it was very informative!


Thanks again for all the responses.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ChrisDuncan_
> *I'm now trying to decide between the XG91 and the CM4228.*



The wind load on the 4228 makes it a poor choice for use with a rotor. That should make your decision easier.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by quarque_
> *I am looking for feedback on his specific theories about why it is "not good in trees" etc. He does not consider it directional because "paper specs are one thing but the meter don't lie". ...Every time I recommend a 4228 he shoots it down with his "not directional" and "not good in trees" etc. All this seems totally counter to 5 years of AVS experience by dozens of members. How do you tell a "know-it-all" that he doesn't...*



The fact is that if you are not receiving a signal "dead-on" on any stack, the signal will be weaker for the directions that stack is designed to reject. Thus, if you're trying to receive scatter, extreme directionality isn't a good thing - that's why people right under transmitters get better results with a single bowtie than they do with a yagi - the bowtie will accept the signal from more directions (especially vertically) than the yagi will.


All antennas pick up signals from the sides and rear. No antenna has a perfect reflector in the back. No antenna can reject all signals that hit it. The 4228 is an excellent long-range antenna because it will "hone in" on the direction it's pointed and reject the significantly weaker signals from the sides. But this "rejection" is little more than a 3db boost of the signal in the direction it's aimed. If the side reflections are strong, that may not be enough to clear the "signal from the trees."


Every situation is different, and different antennas have strong points and weak points. I would challenge any assumption this guy has that the 4228 is not directional. It's not "perfect" but no antenna is. In some circumstances, you'll get better results from a less directional antenna. That's not a fault of any design, it's just a fact. The 4228 is what it is - a great long-distance performer that is fairly resistant to multipath.


What is curious is his recommendation of the 4248. I had a vertical stack of these and found that they performed about the same as my single Winegard HD-7084P's UHF section. And when you get below channel 35 or so, they are most decidedly "not directional" as they are basically corner reflectors which have a 60 degree beamwidth. I eventually sold my two 4248s because they were such poor performers for long-distance reception.


But how do you tell someone who thinks they know it all that they don't? You don't. You supply good information in a reasoned and rational way, and hope that your readers can see who is the extremist and who understands what is really going on. Some people may take his advice. It's a free world.


----------



## HiDefSooner

Can ham radios cause interference problems? I have a friend who is 5 miles away from the tower farm and his neighbor with the ham radio tower is directly between him and the tower farm.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by HiDefSooner_
> *Can ham radios cause interference problems? I have a friend who is 5 miles away from the tower farm and his neighbor with the ham radio tower is directly between him and the tower farm.*



Ham radio shouldn't cause interference. If it does, it's because the operator has a malfunctioning piece of equipment. The operator would no doubt want to be made aware of that.


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *...
> 
> Also, you may just need to learn to ignore this guy.*



Thanks cpcat & sregener for your input.


You were mostly "preaching to the choir" but it is still good info. It is hard to ignore someone who critiques EVERY post you make and contradicts about half of them. Most of my advice to people comes from reading this thread and keeping track of what has worked and what has not.


I use a topo program to assist people in our area because of all the hills. Many people rely on antennaweb but don't realize that they don't take hills into account. So I do a profile from their location to the various towers and tell them if they have anything in the way. So far I have been very successful at predicting their chances at reception.


I used to recommend the 4228 for anything > 20 miles and a 4221 for closer in. Until this person came along and said the 4228 was no good and he uses 4248 all over because it "gets through the trees" (we do have a LOT of trees here). I can see that if you plop a 4228 5 miles from a tower that you will think it is not directional because there is enough gain even 45 degrees off axis to get a signal. He does not seem to understand that.


I think I will just keep reminding the other readers that the 4228 works very very well for many many people and should not be disregarded so easily.


----------



## greenmaji




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by fay28301_
> *This is for MAX HD from fay28301. Thanks for the link on where I can find a CM 4251, I am going to send them an email when I get off of here. I found an old one that is rather oxidized for next to nothing, but I would rather use a new one than go through the trouble of cleaning the old one up. As far as that goes, I don't even know what to use to get the oxidation off of it, so I figured that I would sand & polyurathane it, unless someone can tell me something better to clean it with. The reason I was looking for one, is that I stay near Fayetteville, N.C., (Hope Mills) which is about 70mi from any of the major networks which come out of Raleigh, N.C. I can get all of them except the WB & UPN stations, which come & go. No trouble with any of them on analog. I used to have a CM4251 until it got destroyed in a house fire. As I said, for sheer gain it was the best UHF antenna ever made---but---(always one of them, ain't it) it suffered mightily from multipath interference due to the way the reflector was made. The feed would pick up any nearby adjacent stations through the screen while trying to pickup the far off ones through the front. I don't know how much this will affect digital reception with this antenna, but it is worth a try. Now I have a CM4228A and a CM7775 preamp about 40ft. up, with RG-11 coax downlead. I have a U.S. Digital STB which seems to have an excellent tuner in it. I didn't really want to go any higher (aggravation of have to buy & install a tower), so I figured on a better antenna. I tried 2 DAT75's which had a combined gain comparable to one 4228. They are stored in my attic now. Sorry for being late on the reply to you.
> 
> fay28301*



Ive read that salt and lemon juice will take the oxidation off of anything...

Id be intrested in the used antenna by the way if you were looking to sell it... leave me a instant message on my yahoo ID if you are intrested...


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *Ham radio shouldn't cause interference. If it does, it's because the operator has a malfunctioning piece of equipment. The operator would no doubt want to be made aware of that.*



Very true. On another note, we had a guy with a hotrod in our area and every time he fired it up the HD would go crazy. He finally replaced the solid spark plug wires with the noise-suppression carbon type and the problem went away.


----------



## rdwalt




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by quarque_
> *
> 
> I used to recommend the 4228 for anything > 20 miles and a 4221 for closer in. Until this person came along and said the 4228 was no good and he uses 4248 all over because it "gets through the trees" (we do have a LOT of trees here). ...I think I will just keep reminding the other readers that the 4228 works very very well for many many people and should not be disregarded so easily.*



Just to let you know, I live about 25 miles from the antennas and get everything solid with a 4221 in the attic. Also there are lots of trees however I just recently set it up and being winter there are no leaves yet.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by quarque_
> *
> 
> I used to recommend the 4228 for anything > 20 miles and a 4221 for closer in. Until this person came along and said the 4228 was no good and he uses 4248 all over because it "gets through the trees" (we do have a LOT of trees here). I can see that if you plop a 4228 5 miles from a tower that you will think it is not directional because there is enough gain even 45 degrees off axis to get a signal. He does not seem to understand that.
> 
> *



You could liberalize that a little. The 4221 is probably good to at least 35 miles or so if mounted outside, particularly if you've found a favorable topographic profile at the location in question. Inside an attic it will be more unpredictable.


What topo program do you use?


----------



## j_buckingham80

I'm 35-40 from the towers where I'm at. 4221 works wonderfully in my attic. In fact, I was able to split it once with no appreciable loss in signal. The area I live in though is pretty flat from here to the tower so of course, YMMV. I do think the 4221 is a great inexpensive antenna for your AntennaWeb Yellow-Lt. Green stations, especially if, they all broadcast from the same area.


----------



## ChrisDuncan




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ChrisDuncan_
> *What do you think of the XG91 antenna for my situation?
> 
> WPXS 13 PAX MOUNT VERNON IL 351° 15.0 13
> 
> * lt green - uhf WSIU-DT 40.1 PBS CARBONDALE IL 233° 25.4 40
> 
> * blue - uhf WSIL-DT 3.1 ABC HARRISBURG IL 181° 49.5 34
> 
> blue - vhf WSIU 8 PBS CARBONDALE IL 233° 25.4 8
> 
> * violet - uhf WPXS-DT 21 PAX MOUNT VERNON IL TBD 296° 36.1 21
> 
> violet - vhf WSIL 3 ABC HARRISBURG IL 181° 49.5 3
> 
> violet - vhf KFVS 12 CBS CAPE GIRARDEAU MO 210° 71.0 12
> 
> violet - uhf KBSI 23 FOX CAPE GIRARDEAU MO 212° 73.9 23
> 
> violet - vhf KSDK 5 NBC ST. LOUIS MO 283° 80.5 5
> 
> violet - vhf WPSD 6 NBC PADUCAH KY 185° 78.8 6
> 
> violet - uhf WDKA 49 WB PADUCAH KY 184° 64.7 49
> 
> violet - vhf KTVI 2 FOX ST. LOUIS MO 281° 82.3 2
> 
> violet - uhf KDNL 30 ABC ST. LOUIS MO 284° 80.5 30
> 
> violet - vhf KPLR 11 WB ST. LOUIS MO 282° 78.2 11
> 
> violet - vhf KMOV 4 CBS ST. LOUIS MO 282° 78.2 4
> 
> 
> Since I had Voom installed with their Winegard batwing antenna I always get ABC and PBS. The ABC station I get is 50 miles away.
> 
> 
> A few times I've gotten FOx and CBS to come in, and they're 71 and 73.9 miles away. Would it be worth my effort to try the XG91 with an amplifier? I'd probably also find a way to mount it higher, too, since the Winegard is on a low part of the roof of my guest house (only about 10' high).
> 
> 
> Finally, if I did use the XG91 and an amp, could I use the diplexor supplied by Voom to power the amp? The diplexor is made by Winegard and is 12V. Or should I just run a separate line?
> 
> 
> Mainly I'm just wondering if it's worth my while to even try to pull in these distant locals. I'd really love to get them, though.
> 
> 
> Thanks*



Being the impatient person that I am, I went ahead and bought a 4228 yesterday with a 7777 amp. I mounted the antenna in the exact spot my batwing antenna was at, which isn't a good spot--it's only about 15' high and facing some trees. I also ran it through the diplexor instead of running a straight line.


Immediately I was able to pick up Fox from 73.9 miles away, and it hasn't went out since.


NBC and CBS would not show a picture until it got dark, and then they didn't go out at all. My signal strength (during the afternoon) would jump up well past 80 then all of a sudden down to around 40 for both. But as soon as it started to get dark, they stabilized and worked fine.


I'm also getting WB and UPN which are substations of my local CBS and Fox.


Tomorrow I'm going to actually mount the antenna on top of my house which is 2 stories and sits sort of on a hill. My backyard slopes and my guest house is pretty low, so this should improve things. ALso, I won't be shooting into the trees anymore.


THe only bad part is that it's going to be a very long run. I bought the mounting hardware for mounting it on the peek of my house and a 10' mast along with 200' of RG6. I'll now run a straight line and use the power supply that came with the CM7777 and bypass the diplexor to see if that helps.


2 questions:

1. Will having such a long run (maybe close to 200'; it's a long way to my guest house) affect signal strength.

2. If I wanted to split the line at some point and run it under my house so I could get OTA in my living room (I have a D* HD box), where would I put the power supply for the amp, and what kind of splitter would I use?

Ideally, I'd like to receive OTA in 3 places: 2 in the house and 1 in the guest house where I have my theater set up.


So far I'm pretty excited about the new antenna. No doubt it's a big improvement over the batwing, and I believe that mounting it higher and away from trees will improve things even more. It should be around 35' to 40' high once it's mounted since my house is pretty tall. I'm not looking foward to walking around on my roof since it's fairly steep but once it's all done I believe it'll be worth it.


Thanks


Chris


----------



## j_buckingham80

200' is a long way. As this author shows

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html 


Scroll down to transmission basics


you'll lose almost 10 db of gain running a 200' Rg-6 cable that's a gain factor of 10. Anything you can do to shorten up the cable would help.


----------



## ChrisDuncan

I walked off the distance a little bit ago and it looks like I can get by with around 150' to the guest house.


If I add a splitter in there will I need a distribution amplifier?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ChrisDuncan_
> *1. Will having such a long run (maybe close to 200'; it's a long way to my guest house) affect signal strength.
> 
> 2. If I wanted to split the line at some point and run it under my house so I could get OTA in my living room (I have a D* HD box), where would I put the power supply for the amp, and what kind of splitter would I use?*



1. Yes. You'll lose a fair bit of signal over that length, however the preamplifier should eliminate most or all of that loss. If you're really concerned, get RG-11 - the loss factor is much lower for RG-11. You'll need special connectors to reduce the cable thickness for attaching it to things like your preamp.


2. Split after the power supply. If your signals are marginal, you'll lose them by splitting the signal. I had a 3-way splitter, and stations broke up terribly. I switched to a 2-way and things improved. A direct connection ended up working the best.


----------



## j_buckingham80

With a 200 ft. cable run or even a 150' run from 80 miles out, I wouldn't be surprised if you needed a pre-amp and a distribution amp if you wanted to split the signal. I agree with sregener that the preamp should eliminate most of the loss in the long run.


However, A splitter 3-4 way is going to cut your signal another 6-7 db (a 2-way split is a minimum of 3db a 3 way split about 5-6 db and a 4 way split about 7 and that's assuming a pretty efficient splitter).


I'd think your best bet is to run the long cable with just your pre-amp...If you get a good signal, then try splitting it however many ways you like...if it doesn't work, well you'll need a dist amp.


One other possiblity...say you have a "preferred" tv...you can have a single split to that tv and the rest of the house, then split the rest of the house line. That will preserve a better signal for your preferred tv. The rest of the house's signal will suffer, but if you don't want to buy a dist. amp that can reduce the problem.


----------



## ChrisDuncan

Hmmm. I was thinking of putting the power supply by my Voom box out in the guest house. So if I wanted OTA in 2 rooms in my regular house, I'd have to run more cable back from the guest house to the house? Seems like a lot of cable.


Maybe I could put the power supply in my living room, and go from there since that will be closer to the antenna if it's on my roof.


One more thing: why is reception so much better at night? I've lost CBS and UPN now during the day (signal keeps going up and down) but I suspect, like last night, it'll be okay after dark.


----------



## slapshot

Well, after much hesitation I went ahead and installed a CM 4228 on the roof out here in rural MD (21620). Tried the Silver Sensor route for a while,but obviously it just can't do the job a roof mounted antenna can.


I have a very sloped roof here so it was pretty hairy getting up there, I recommend hiring someone but at quotes of 400 or so, I was going to do it myself!


I strapped it to the chimney and after scraping my knuckles and dropping a few key parts over the side and having to retreive them,I went inside and was expecting digital HD nirvana. Did a channel scan and came up with only three stations! None that I remember with the SS pulling in. All frantic I checked my connections and swore up and down this must be a defective

antenna! Took a look at the instructions and D'OH I had it up backwards!

Aiming it right into some tress I was pulling in Philadelphia stations! I'm like 75-80 miles away! But that's not what I wanted so turned it around and now get all the Baltimore stations and even a couple of DC stations! Fantastic! No more dropouts or searching for signal!


So for anyone wanting to know how far this 4228 can pick up without a preamp,pretty darn far!

Do you guys think adding one would let me get the rest of DC channels?

Doesn't really matter,though, just curious.


Thanks to all who recommended this antenna a few weeks ago when I asked for advice on here!

Thank you again.


----------



## j_buckingham80

One explanation for why reception changes with the time of day.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/G...yA.html#fading


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *You could liberalize that a little. The 4221 is probably good to at least 35 miles or so if mounted outside, particularly if you've found a favorable topographic profile at the location in question. Inside an attic it will be more unpredictable.
> 
> 
> What topo program do you use?*



I agree it works well to 35 miles or beyond in clear terrain but I tend to play it safe when recommending stuff. I hate to see people waste $$ and time trying 4 and 5 different antennas. With all the hills and trees here you often need every dB you can get.


I use DeLorme TOPO USA. It is very user friendly and pretty accurate. You can get a nice profile (slice) from any location to another within the US. It will even give you a profile of a river or road if you click on it. I used it to find the best vantage point at Hell's Canyon last summer. I do a fair amount of photography and I wanted the longest stretch of visible canyon I could get to by road. Much of the canyon twists and turns so you rarely see more than a mile or two at a time. Using the 3D mode I was able to sight down the canyon from various forest service roads to find the best spot. It worked very well. The "overlook" that is advertized in the brochures is a joke. You only see the top few hundred feet because the "overlook" is one ridge away from the actual canyon edge.

Anywaaaaay, the program is very handy for lots of things.


----------



## roland77

Hi,

I have been having pixelazation issues with some of my OTA channels and need some advice. I get slight one or two second dropouts every few minutes on my OTA hdtv channels. I live near DC, about 10 miles from the towers, and should be in the yellow. I have a Radio shack UHF only antenna (15-2160) chimney mounted. I have a 25ft cable run to an Eagle-Aspen 5x8 multi switch, then a 100ft cable run to my hr-10 250 HD Tivo box, where the signal is split between one of my satellite inputs and my ota antenna input (didn't want to add a third cable run to my box). What is the most likely cause of the dropouts? I could shorten the cable runs by 40ft maybe, or add a pre-amp to my antenna. If I add a powered pre-amp, can I power it around the multiswitch (i.e. the preamp is connected at the antenna, but the power coax runs through the multi switch? The multiswitch is already powered). Thanks in advance for any help!


----------



## ChrisDuncan

I don't suppose one could connect 2 "outdoor balun kits" to the 4228 and just run two lines off it as one would do a dish?


Probably a stupid question, but in my case that could give me two "straight" runs from the antenna. I could just buy another CM7777. One for the house, one for the guest house.


j_buckingham80, thanks for posting that about reception changes.


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *Trees cause multipath.
> *



I'm not sure I buy that. First off, trees are not nearly as good at reflecting UHF as a hard surface like a building. Secondly, large flat surfaces can create a reflection with a coherent wavefront that would appear to a receiver like a strong signal that could be locked on to. But a stand of trees would create a multitude of weak signals of all differing phases. This would look to the receiver like background noise which is more easily rejected than a single strong reflected signal that is out of phase with the main line-of-sight signal. So I think trees can *partially block* signals but I seriously doubt they can create a reflection that any receiver could lock on to or be seriously bothered by.


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by roland77_
> *Hi,
> 
> I have been having pixelazation issues with some of my OTA channels and need some advice. I get slight one or two second dropouts every few minutes on my OTA hdtv channels. I live near DC, about 10 miles from the towers, and should be in the yellow. I have a Radio shack UHF only antenna (15-2160) chimney mounted. I have a 25ft cable run to an Eagle-Aspen 5x8 multi switch, then a 100ft cable run to my hr-10 250 HD Tivo box, where the signal is split between one of my satellite inputs and my ota antenna input (didn't want to add a third cable run to my box). What is the most likely cause of the dropouts? I could shorten the cable runs by 40ft maybe, or add a pre-amp to my antenna. If I add a powered pre-amp, can I power it around the multiswitch (i.e. the preamp is connected at the antenna, but the power coax runs through the multi switch? The multiswitch is already powered). Thanks in advance for any help!*



At only 10 miles you may actually have TOO MUCH signal. The 2160 is also not highly directional so you could be getting a lot of multipath. Dropouts and bouncing signal levels are often an indication of strong multipath. The first thing I would try is the Rat Shack variable attenuator since it is cheap and easy to put inline at your receiver. The next step is relocating and re-aiming your antenna. Changes as small as 6" or 5 degrees can have a big effect. If that fails you may want to consider a different antenna. The HD Tivo is not known for its fantastic tuner so that is not helping you. Shorter cable runs are always better than longer ones. Cut out whatever you can. If you run the 2160 direct to the Tivo do you get an change in reception?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ChrisDuncan_
> *One more thing: why is reception so much better at night? I've lost CBS and UPN now during the day (signal keeps going up and down) but I suspect, like last night, it'll be okay after dark.*



Long distance reception (i.e. no line-of-sight) does seem to benefit from nighttime conditions. I find that nights are almost always better than days, and the good "daytimes" are few and far between. I've heard dozens of theories about this, but I've come to the conclusion that wind and sun are the two biggest factors.


When it is windy, long-distance reception suffers during the day. When it is calm, reception is better.


The higher the sun is in the sky, the worse the reception is. Thus, you should expect summertime reception to be far worse than winter.


I've also found that snow cover improves reception dramatically. It probably increases ground bounce.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by slapshot_
> *Do you guys think adding one would let me get the rest of DC channels?
> 
> Doesn't really matter,though, just curious.
> *



I'd definitely recommend a CM7777 preamplifier for your situation. It shouldn't negatively impact the Baltimore stations (over 30 miles away, according to Antennaweb) and it should positively impact D.C. stations. It's impossible to say how much improvement you'll get, and not all the D.C. stations are on the same tower, so you might get into aiming problems (and I strongly advise against a rotor with the 4228) at that distance. Close in, pointing the antenna a little off doesn't really hurt you. At long distances, just a few degrees can make the difference between getting a rock-solid signal and getting nothing.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ChrisDuncan_
> *I don't suppose one could connect 2 "outdoor balun kits" to the 4228 and just run two lines off it as one would do a dish?*



You could, but the impact would be the same as a splitter.


If you're willing to put up two antennas, that would be the better route, IMO.


----------



## roland77

quarque-

Thanks for the input. After doing more checking last night, I think it has to do with my HD Tivo box. The dropouts seem worse on taped materials versus live TV, and there seem to be a lot of issues with the HR10 250. I figured out how to check my signal strength and I am getting around 90 for my locals. I will try some of your suggestions though. Thanks.


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by roland77_
> *quarque-
> 
> Thanks for the input. After doing more checking last night, I think it has to do with my HD Tivo box. The dropouts seem worse on taped materials versus live TV, and there seem to be a lot of issues with the HR10 250. I figured out how to check my signal strength and I am getting around 90 for my locals. I will try some of your suggestions though. Thanks.*



If your signal levels are steady for very long periods of time then the Tivo is most likely the culprit. Sounds like the Tivo hiccups during recording. Other HD recorders have had similar issues when trying to do more than one thing at a time (not enough horsepower/speed in the hardware).


----------



## SD4934

I have been using the Winegard 8 bay for several weeks. I was having problems with a staion on a higher UHF frequency (51). I read that this particular antenna is not good on higher UHF frequencies (above 50). Since I will be having a channel coming on the air at 55 in a month or so I decided to try the AntennasDirect 43XG (corner reflector yagi). I installed the antenna this morning. I had checked my signal strength with the old antenna prior to putting up the 43XG. After installation the signal strength on 51 was rock solid (it fluctuated wildly with the Winegard). There was some improvement in signal strength on my other channels. The only thing I changed was the antenna. Everything else (pre-amp, cabling, antenna heigth) stayed the same. Whether the 43XG is better at multipath or whatever, in my situation, it does a much better job than the Winegard.

I realize that due to the many variables that affect antenna performance, my results can't be extrapolated to someone else's situation but I am very happy with the antenna.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by SD4934_
> *Since I will be having a channel coming on the air at 55 in a month or so I decided to try the AntennasDirect MX43 (corner reflector yagi).*



Do you mean the 43XG? I searched their site and couldn't find any antenna with an MX designation.


I'm sure the 43XG is a better performer on higher channel numbers than the PR-8800. And if the corner reflector on the 43XG is as good as the one on the 91XG, it's a solid performer on the lower channels, too.


----------



## SD4934




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *Do you mean the 43XG? I searched their site and couldn't find any antenna with an MX designation.
> 
> 
> I'm sure the 43XG is a better performer on higher channel numbers than the PR-8800. And if the corner reflector on the 43XG is as good as the one on the 91XG, it's a solid performer on the lower channels, too.*



Yes, it is the 43XG. On the shipping invoice the SKU # is listed as UE-MX43. That's what I was looking at when I typed my post. I didn't go with the 91XG becuase I thought that would be overkill in my situation (even the

medium range yagi would probably work). It appears to be a better perfomer for me even in the lower ranges (consistently better and on one channel-27-significantly better performance). For the few hours I've had the antenna up I am very happy with it.


----------



## ChrisDuncan

I put my antenna up today on the house and have decide just to go with the two antenna idea so I'll also have one for the guest house. My reception didn't improve all that much, about the same as at the other location even though it's much higher. When I try to add a splitter with it being such a long run I lose channels completely. Perhaps if it was a shorter run it'd be okay to split it but not in my case.


So... sometime next week I'll add another antenna. Kind of disappointing.


----------



## Sevenfeet

OK gang, I need some advice here. Due to terrain in my section of Nashville, I have not been able to pick up all the stations I'd like to. In fact, all I can get is ABC, PBS and sometimes NBC. After talking with Voom, they are going to send out a team to install a different antenna on my roof. I will pay for the antenna, boom and mounting equipment and Voom will pick up the install charge.


I need advice on just what antenna to try next. Given the gain problems I have here, here's what I'm thinking the short list is including gain measurements from either manufacturers data or SolidSignal:


Channelmaster:

4248 8-bay bowtie (I've tried this before), 10.8 db max

3023 Yagi, 11.5 db max


Wineguard:

HD9095P Yagi, 14.2 db (ch 14), 16 db (ch 32), 15.5 db (ch 50) 12.2 db (ch 69)

PR8800 8-bay bowtie, 10.7 db (ch 14), 12 db (ch 32), 11 db (ch 50) 12.5 db (ch 69)


AntennasDirect:

91XG Yagi, 16.7 db max

DB8 8-bay bowtie, 15.8 db max



Since one of my problem channels is the local NBC affiliate at VHF-10, the 8 bays would have an advantage of bringing in an upper VHF signal. But it appears the Yagis rule having the ability to squeeze out more signal from a bad situation. And are ChannelMaster antennas really behind the curve as opposed to some of these other designs?


All of the problem stations are fortunately on the the same vector so I don't think I'll need a rotor. The stations are on UHF channels 15, 21, 23 and 56, as well as VHF 10 I mentioned earlier. The VHF channel is 6 miles away, all others are 16 miles away.


And yes, I'm already using a pre-amp (CM7777). I'm noticing some loss between the multiswitch that was installed (Wineguard) some of my rooms that is preventing me from seeing the weak NBC affiliate on two of my three televisions. Do I need a indoor distribution amps to boost the signal or another tactic? Right now, the power module for the 7777 is sitting right before the multiswitch in the chain in my garage.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Sevenfeet_
> *91XG Yagi, 16.7 db max
> 
> 
> Since one of my problem channels is the local NBC affiliate at VHF-10, the 8 bays would have an advantage of bringing in an upper VHF signal. But it appears the Yagis rule having the ability to squeeze out more signal from a bad situation. And are ChannelMaster antennas really behind the curve as opposed to some of these other designs?*



I can speak from experience that the 91XG does an excellent job on VHF channel 10. I receive a perfect picture from KTTC, and they're over 20 miles away. I do use a preamp (19db VHF gain), but I suspect it isn't doing much to boost the picture.


I haven't personally tried the 4228, but I know the 4248 was an underperformer for me. The 91XG is by far the best antenna I've tried.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ChrisDuncan_
> *I put my antenna up today on the house and have decide just to go with the two antenna idea so I'll also have one for the guest house. My reception didn't improve all that much, about the same as at the other location even though it's much higher.*



I'd give the 91XG a try. I think it might impress you. Since you're already trying a second antenna, try something that might be better (a different design family altogether) and see if it makes a difference. AntennasDirect has a liberal return policy if you find the 4228 is a better antenna. Also, you don't mention a preamplifier, but I assume you used one with that monstrous cable run?


----------



## Sevenfeet

OK, I'll order the 91XG. Thanks guys.


----------



## ChrisDuncan




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *I'd give the 91XG a try. I think it might impress you. Since you're already trying a second antenna, try something that might be better (a different design family altogether) and see if it makes a difference. AntennasDirect has a liberal return policy if you find the 4228 is a better antenna. Also, you don't mention a preamplifier, but I assume you used one with that monstrous cable run?*



Yeah, I'm using the CM7777 amp. YOu know, I was just thinking the same thing, that I should order the 91XG and give that a try. Especially since I'm going to end up with 2 antennas anyway. I could also put a rotor on the 91XG which I didn't do with the 4228.


Today was kind of a letdown after going to all that trouble to roofmount it. It's at least 35' high now since the mast is 10'. But maybe the 91XG will improve things some more.


At least I'm getting Fox and WB all the time now, whereas before I couldn't get them at all. CBS will come in sporadically but keeps breaking up. I'm assuming that NBC and CBS will be okay again tonight at least.


I guess if I can watch The Tonight Show in HD then the effort was worth it.


I'm wondering why adding a short cable to the splitter doesn't make my channels go out, but adding a long one (150') makes them go out immediately. I added the short cable, like 10' or so, just to experiment and it didn't affect reception, but simply adding the long cable to the splitter makes all my channels go out.


I suppose I could at least get OTA in my upstairs bedroom using the same antenna since it would be a very short run, but the long run is out of the question.


I'm off to order the 91XG.


----------



## j_buckingham80

Just a quick disclaimer, I'm no antenna guru, but hey...FWIW, height's not necessarily as useful on UHF as it would be on VHF, if anything, it might be worth attempting to adjust the antenna up on down along the mast to see if a particular height is better than another.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html 


If you go here and read some of the issues related to site mounting, you can see how complex (especially for UHF) it becomes.


----------



## firemantom26

I have a Channel master amp 7777 and found this amp and was wondering how much it would improve reception, if any over the 7777 model. http://www.researchcomms.com/hdtv.html It has a UHF NOISE FIGURE UHF 0.4 dB. UHF 20 db GAIN vs the Channel master 7777 UHF NOISE FIGURE 2.0 dB UHF Gain: 26 dB


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by firemantom26_
> *I have a Channel master amp 7777 and found this amp and was wondering how much it would improve reception, if any over the 7777 model. http://www.researchcomms.com/hdtv.html It has a UHF NOISE FIGURE UHF 0.4 dB. UHF 20 db GAIN vs the Channel master 7777 UHF NOISE FIGURE 2.0 dB UHF Gain: 26 dB
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Send "cpcat" a PM...he has one that's for sale.Should be the very best preamp money can buy.


----------



## firemantom26




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by MAX HD_
> *Send "cpcat" a PM...he has one that's for sale.Should be the very best preamp money can buy.*




How much better reception do you think it will make. I did gave him a PM.



Thank you


----------



## cjhrph

Currently, I am using the 4228 and 7777. The antenna is mounted on the roof ~ 35 feet above ground. Generally, the reception is decent. But I am noticing a few things. The channels I am trying to receive are 17,25,47, and 54.


1. On overcast days the reception is better.

2. The reception is better in the evenings/night and early morning.

3. On sunny days, late morning and afternoon channels 47 and 54 become very difficult to receive.


Q: Does anyone have any experience in ganging two 4228's ? Would this improve this situation ?


I was thinking of purchasing either a 91XG or DAT75 to see if it were any better. If anyone has a DAT75 for sale please let me know.

[email protected]


----------



## j_buckingham80

For the Pre-Amp with a noise figure of .4...Effectively, you are getting back 1.6 dB of Signal from your antenna. Signal that you normally lose. Theoretically, by cutting out that 1.6 dB of noise you are increasing your gain by 1.6dB or about 40%.


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by j_buckingham80_
> *For the Pre-Amp with a noise figure of .4...Effectively, you are getting back 1.6 dB of Signal from your antenna. Signal that you normally lose. Theoretically, by cutting out that 1.6 dB of noise you are increasing your gain by 1.6dB or about 40%.*



I believe the gain remains the same but the s/n ratio improves by 40% - not quite the same thing. You're not getting 40% more signal just 40% less noise mixed in with the same level of signal. If 0.4 is a real number (not advertising dept. #) then it is very impressive.


----------



## sebenste

Hello all,


I have two channels I'd like to get that are consistently just below

signal acquisition levels on my tuner. The CM 4228 UHF antenna

is hooked up to the CM 7777 preamp, then 75' down the cable

to the powered part of the preamp, then another 15' to my TV.


Question: would replacing the RG-6 quad shielded length of cable with

RG-11 get me any improvement, or does the 7777 adjust the power

so that you do get an effective 26 dB gain out of the back end no

matter what? I can't move the antenna.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by j_buckingham80_
> *Just a quick disclaimer, I'm no antenna guru, but hey...FWIW, height's not necessarily as useful on UHF as it would be on VHF...*



Actually, once you're beyond line-of-sight, this is blatently false. VHF "bends" much more readily than UHF. Thus, it is reasonable to get VHF reception from 100 miles away over average terrain. UHF is pretty much hard to do after 60 miles. (Assuming normal broadcast antenna height.) I had an antenna on my roof (about 20') and then switched to a 54' tower (and I'm married - I know, I know. Lucky guy...) Reception on UHF improved dramatically - I received UHF stations I'd never seen before. VHF improved, but not so much.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cjhrph_
> *Q: Does anyone have any experience in ganging two 4228's ? Would this improve this situation ?
> 
> 
> I was thinking of purchasing either a 91XG or DAT75 to see if it were any better. If anyone has a DAT75 for sale please let me know.
> *



There was a guy in California who tried 2 and 4 4228s in a stack. He found 2 were better than 1, but 4 wasn't much better at all and the wind load became a major factor.


I'd strongly advise the 91XG. It may not be better than the 4228 in all situations, but it isn't nearly so heavy, doesn't have the same windload, and is a different style antenna. Where yagis have failed, bowties have worked, and vice versa.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sebenste_
> *Question: would replacing the RG-6 quad shielded length of cable with
> 
> RG-11 get me any improvement, or does the 7777 adjust the power
> 
> so that you do get an effective 26 dB gain out of the back end no
> 
> matter what? I can't move the antenna.*



Experts have told me that if you use a preamp, QS RG-6 is just as good as RG-11.


----------



## j_buckingham80

Sreg- No doubt height is going to help if you're trying to get around the curvature of the Earth. But in the average installation (which granted Chris is not) it doesn't take much to get an UHF antenna 4 wavelengths off the ground. I agree height is much more useful in situations like Chris's to clear obstructions, the Earth being his principal one. (basically extending his horizon) But, how much height it would take to do that is a different story. It did look like though, some of the stations he was attempting to pull in were VHF stations, so height would probably help anyways.


My more point was, that on a 10' mast, it might be worth his while to see if moving his antenna up and down along the mast might help, it's unlikely, but it's hard to know ahead of time. Also, he may be fortunate enough to be on a ridge or something similar so that his horizon is already substantially distant, in which case he might be getting reflections that reduce his signal. His day reception already significantly varies from his night reception, so it does appear that ground reflections may be having some influence.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sebenste_
> *
> 
> Question: would replacing the RG-6 quad shielded length of cable with
> 
> RG-11 get me any improvement, or does the 7777 adjust the power
> 
> so that you do get an effective 26 dB gain out of the back end no
> 
> matter what? I can't move the antenna.*



I know folks get that glazed over look when I break out the math, but it's

the only way to precisely answer this question.


The noise temperature Tn of two amplifiers in cascade is the noise

temperature of the first plus the noise temperature of the second

divided by the gain of the first:


Tn = T1 + T2/G1.


To convert Noise Figure(f) to noise temperature (Tn):


Tn = 290(10^(f/10) - 1)


So a 2.0 dB preamp has a noise temperature of 169.6K


Let's say that the Noise Figure of your receiver is 10 dB and your RG6 cable

loss is 5.0 dB for a total Noise Figure of 15.0 dB. The receiver noise

temperature is 8880K.


Then the system noise temperature is 169.6 + 8880/400 (26 dB) = 191.8K


To convert from noise temperature back to Noise Figure:


NF = 10 log(1 + Tn/290)


So the system Noise Figure is 2.2 dB. The gain of the preamp "washes out"

the noise of the receiver and connecting coax.


Now let's plug in a different value of coax loss. Your rich uncle buys you

some 7/8" Heliax ($6 a foot) and your coax loss goes down to 1.0 dB,

making your receiver noise figure 11.0 dB or 3361K.


169.6 + 3361/400 = 178K or 2.08 dB


Your rich uncle's $600 was the wrong place to put the money since it only

buys you an undetectable 0.12 dB of signal to noise ratio. You should have

spent it on a taller tower or mast, a bigger antenna or a better preamp

(in that order).


Now for something counter-intuitive. Let's say the gain of the preamp is

13 dB instead of 26 dB at the same 2.0 dB Noise Figure. Then the system

noise temperature (with the 5.0 dB loss RG-6) is 169.6 + 8880/20 (13 dB) =

613.6K or a system Noise Figure of 4.9 dB. In this case, 13 dB less preamp

gain only causes the loss of 2.7 dB of signal to noise ratio.


Ron


----------



## quarque

Ron - I love it. No glaze here. So a high gain preamp with a noise figure of 0.4 really does make a difference in the total noise figure, but *may* not be as significant as it looks because of the other elements in the system. Sorta reminds me of a physics professor I had who constantly wrote "Sig Fig" on everyone's homework. Your calculations are dominated by the element with the least precision in the chain. If it only had 3 significant figures in its value then you better not use 10-digit precision in the result. "Siggy" finally became our friend at some point...


----------



## sebenste

Ron,


Thank you for that answer...exactly what I was looking for. And

thank you Serenger...your experts are right. OK, no rewiring job

for me.


----------



## AntAltMike

Some of the speculation here regarding the likely effect of increasing antenna height is based on a "perfect sphere" topograpical assumption. It is entirely possible, and in fact quite common, to be faced with a situation where someone is so far from the transmitter that they would not have line of sight over a sphere, and whose curved reception path is also blocked by a somewhat taller building that is fairly close by. In these instances, raising a UHF antenna a reasonable amount can often dramatically improve reception.


On the other hand, when one is in a metropolitan environment and suffering from hard multipath reflections, quite often the ideal height is below the maximum height, as lowering the antenna may reduce the multipath signal strength more than it reduces the desired signal strength.


I service a headend that supplies antenna signal to 400 drops. This campground is on low ground and the signal strength of reflections off Byrd Stadium in College Park, Maryland are nearly as strong as the signals from the transmitter azimuth direction. I get a clearer analog picture on all channels with the antenna about twenty feet LOWER than the previous technician had located it.


----------



## gfgray

I ran your calculations for the Research Comms preamp with (0.4dB NF).


Tnamp = 290 * (10^(0.4/10) - 1)

= 27.98K


Tnsys = 27.98 + 8880 / 100 (20dB)

= 116.78K


NFsys = 10log(1 + 116.78/290)

= 1.47dB


So compared to the CM7777 system with NF 2.2dB, the Research Comms lowers the system NF by .7dB or .85 times or 15%. Incidentally, with the lower gain of this expensive amp, your $6/ft cable would lower the NF of the system to 0.84dB, which is 1.36dB lower or .73 times or 27% compared to CM7777. So the cable is a much bigger factor. I have this preamp and didn't notice a significant improvement. But it is at the end of a 150ft RG-6 cable run. I am still playing with it though.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> So the cable is a much bigger factor.



Good observation. If anyone is interested in Heliax, here's a few links:

http://www.andrew.com/catalog38/Cat3...px?PageNum=580 

http://www.andrew.com/catalog38/Cat3...px?PageNum=578 

http://www.xmantennas.com/catalog38/...ice%20List.pdf 


However, the effect of the feedline can be mitigated by placing another

preamp at the receiver.


The equation is extended for multiple stages like this:


Tn = T1 + T2/G1 + T3/G1G2 + T4/G1G2G3 .....


Coax is modeled as a "stage" with gain less than 1 and Noise Figure equal to

the cable loss (for instance, a cable with 6 dB of loss is an amplifier with a

gain of 0.25 and a noise temperature of 864.5K).


Ron


----------



## sebenste

Dr et al,


Great observations. I have tried putting an in-line amplifier in after

my CM 7777 and all I got was extreme noise on every station,

despite haveing less than strong signals. I figured the amp was just

bringing the noise levels up too high. At some point, as others have

pointed out and as I have seen first hand, you can only amplify signal

so much before you start amplifying noise above desirable levels.


Gfgray...spot on with the calculations. But, because the CM 7777

puts out 6 dB more than your amp, despite the 1.6 db added noise

compared to yours, you're still getting 4 db more from the 7777

than the other. Just a thought.


Also, it would be interesting to do calculation on a 13 dB amp with

5 dB noise, which cheapy stores sell (or inflict) unwittingly to their

customers.


----------



## dr1394

Gilbert,


Yes, it's a balancing act. Too much gain causes other problems. Armed with

the equations, one can select the minimum gain required of a preamp (or

preamps in a multi-stage configuration) for a given system.


gfgray's system is a good case study. He's bought an expensive GaAsFet

preamp and want's to take advantage of the low Noise Figure, but he's

got a 150 foot RG-6 run (about 7.5 dB loss). Let's add a 1 dB NF 10 dB

gain preamp at the 10 dB NF receiver.


Tn = T1 + T2/G1 + T3/G1G2 + T4/G1G2G3


Tn = 27.98 + 1341/100 + 75.1/(0.178)(100) + 2610/(100)(0.178)(10)

Tn = 27.98 + 1341/100 + 75.1/17.8 + 2610/178

Tn = 27.98 + 13.41 + 4.2 + 14.66

Tn = 60.25K or 0.82 dB Noise Figure


The overall added gain is 20 - 7.5 + 10 or 22.5 dB.


You can juggle the numbers. In fact, this stuff is perfect for an Excel spread-

sheet. Probably the more difficult part is finding preamps that meet your

specifications (that is, a 1 dB NF 10 dB gain preamp may not be "off the

shelf").


Another thing to consider is what is the value of the S/N improvement?

Adding the 1 dB NF 10 dB gain preamp buys about 1.35 dB S/N ratio. If

the long distance or weak station has a 5 dB or more variation due to

propagation effects (tropospheric enhancements and degradations due

to time of day and weather or changes in the local noise level), then the

1.35 dB improvement won't really be noticeable if you're looking for error

free viewing. If you're into DTV DX'ing and are thrilled with moments of

reception, then the 1.35 dB improvement means longer periods of time

between breakups.


Ron


----------



## gfgray

Ron, good point on adding another amp to overcome the receiver NF. I'll give that a try with a CM7777 behind my TV or something. Or maybe I'll get a splitter to split my power signal at the antenna and run a CM7777 in series with the 9250 amp. This would also solve the problem of the 9250 being UHF only. I'll probably have to add an atenuator between the two amps.


Research Communications latest model uses pHEMT technology which I think is based on GaAs. But, it is also way cheaper than their older $700 GaAs based amp. The pHEMT preamp is 75GBP (~$150) plus 25GBP shipping.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dr1394_
> *... Too much gain causes other problems...
> 
> 
> Another thing to consider is what is the value of the S/N improvement? Adding the 1 dB NF 10 dB gain preamp buys about 1.35 dB S/N ratio. If the long distance or weak station has a 5 dB or more variation due to propagation effects (tropospheric enhancements and degradations due to time of day and weather or changes in the local noise level), then the 1.35 dB improvement won't really be noticeable if you're looking for error free viewing. If you're into DTV DX'ing and are thrilled with moments of reception, then the 1.35 dB improvement means longer periods of time between breakups.*



These caveats must not be overlooked. In most real world situations, adding the second preamp will not improve system performance and may make it worse. Cascaded amplifiers develop intermodulation artifacts that tend to degrade signal quality. Furthermore, any signal so anemic that it theoretically is calculably enhanced through multiple stages of amplification is probably impure to begin with. The biggest remaining problem with a signal that has already been preamplified may not be S/N ratio and further increasing it may contribute nothing to system reliability while the efforts to do so may make it worse.


I didn't see how the calculations in dr1394's last post take into account the effect of the ambient signal level. To use more primitive methodology, suppose an antenna develops an output level of -20dBmV. For ease of calculation, we call the thermal noise floor -60dBmV, then the S/N at the antenna is 40dB. Say we lose 10dB of signal strength over the length of the coax, and so the signal strength at the tuner is -30dBmV, but since the tuner has a noise figure of 10dB, the tuner degrades the S/N to 20dB. We can live with that, but, according to the manufacturer's specs, it gives us no cushion.


Now, if we have a 13dB gain preamp with a 3dB noise figure, then the preamplifier output is -7dBmV, the system noise floor is up to -44dBmV (-60dBmv noise floor + 13 amp gain + 3dB) and the S/N ratio has dropped by 3dB to 37dB. After we lose 10dB of signal along the coax, the input signal has a signal strength of -17dBmV, and the power of the noise impressed upon that signal is -54dBmV (-44dBmV -10dB).


The noise figure of the tuner, 10dB, is added to the thermal noise floor and effectively develops a noise power level of -50dBmV, so when you convert -50dBmV to watts, add it to -54dBmv converted to watts and convert back to dBmV, you wind up with system noise of about -48dBmV, which means the S/N ratio will be about 31dB. That's pretty good. In fact, that's as good as you need. Uncle siggy says that more precise calculations are not warranted because of the range of the variables involved.


Now someone with more time on his hands than I have (and with either the innate ability to convert dBmV to watts and back in his head or through some more reliable means!) can redo these seat-of-the-pants calculations with weaker antenna input numbers and see that when input signal levels are really, really anemic, there will be an extremely narrow range of circumstances where the S/N ratio was acceptable coming off the antenna but where the output of one single 23/26dB gain,


----------



## wildwillie6




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *Actually, once you're beyond line-of-sight, this is blatantly false. VHF "bends" much more readily than UHF. Thus, it is reasonable to get VHF reception from 100 miles away over average terrain. UHF is pretty much hard to do after 60 miles. (Assuming normal broadcast antenna height.)*



I agree about the difficulty of UHF after 60 miles . . . but, for some reason, I get a Richmond, Va., station (FOX-35) at 90+ air miles from here, solid all the time, with a ChannelMaster 4248 and 7777 preamp. This is the most recent of the Richmond stations to go to full power, with new equipment. The other Richmond stations are good more than 50 percent of the time, but certainly not always.


My puzzle is why I can get that Richmond station so well, all the time . . . at well beyond 60 miles. My experience with the other stations is more what I'd expect at this range.


willie


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by wildwillie6_
> *I agree about the difficulty of UHF after 60 miles . . . but, for some reason, I get a Richmond, Va., station (FOX-35) at 90+ air miles from here, solid all the time, with a ChannelMaster 4248 and 7777 preamp. This is the most recent of the Richmond stations to go to full power, with new equipment. The other Richmond stations are good more than 50 percent of the time, but certainly not always.
> 
> 
> My puzzle is why I can get that Richmond station so well, all the time . . . at well beyond 60 miles. My experience with the other stations is more what I'd expect at this range.
> 
> 
> willie*



Line of sight can easily extend to 100 miles or more depending on the elevation of the transmit and receive sites. What's not taken into account is intervening terrain. You need a topo program for that. Most likely you have favorable intervening topography between you and Richmond. A line of sight calculator can be found at http://www.vwlowen.demon.co.uk/java/horizon.htm but keep in mind this just assumes two theoretical points on a smooth sphere and doesn't account for intervening terrain.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by wildwillie6_
> *I agree about the difficulty of UHF after 60 miles . . . but, for some reason, I get a Richmond, Va., station (FOX-35) at 90+ air miles from here, solid all the time, with a ChannelMaster 4248 and 7777 preamp.
> 
> 
> My puzzle is why I can get that Richmond station so well, all the time . . . at well beyond 60 miles. My experience with the other stations is more what I'd expect at this range.
> *



There are a couple of things to consider. First, WRLH (call letters are always better than channel numbers for those of us not in your local area) has a higher tower than a lot of the other digital stations - over 100 meters higher in some cases. The exception seems to be WTVR, which is about at the same height. *BUT* receiving antenna characteristics come into play, too. You're using a yagi/corner-reflector antenna (and not the best, IMO) which means that there is a crossover point where the corner-reflector becomes the dominant reception design. Generally, speaking the low-to-mid 30s is where both halves are approximately equal. Thus, for very weak signals, this is the strongest part of the antenna.


I have a similar situation with WCCO-DT (UHF channel 32) for me - while every other digital station from the exact same tower (and relatively identical antenna heights, as well) gives me fits, WCCO-DT seems to be solid. Since every frequency propogates differently, there's going to be "hot spots" well beyond the predicted contours. Probably, you're experiencing the same thing I am - that frequency is just tending to hit your location stronger.


Of course, if you also have co-channel interference on other frequencies (a very real possibility at 90 miles) that could also make the one "clean" channel better than the others.


----------



## wildwillie6




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *You're using a yagi/corner-reflector antenna (and not the best, IMO) which means that there is a crossover point where the corner-reflector becomes the dominant reception design. Generally, speaking the low-to-mid 30s is where both halves are approximately equal. Thus, for very weak signals, this is the strongest part of the antenna.*
> 
> 
> . . .
> 
> 
> Of course, if you also have co-channel interference on other frequencies (a very real possibility at 90 miles) that could also make the one "clean" channel better than the others. [/b]



Good points, and I agree about antenna design. Looked long and hard at the CM 4228, but went with the yagi/corner-reflector 4248 because of concern about the wind load. Clearly I have some kind of sweet spot for WRLH -- but it's actually at UHF channel 26, their digital assignment. I don't get WTVR quite as well, and that's on UHF 25.


Thanks for the thoughts, and also for sharing your experience.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by wildwillie6_
> *Looked long and hard at the CM 4228, but went with the yagi/corner-reflector 4248 because of concern about the wind load.*



If you haven't considered or looked at the AntennasDirect 91XG, my experience seems to indicate that there is a marked improvement in reception with the 91XG. I found the 4248 to be an underperformer in my situation. It wasn't noticably better than the UHF section of my Winegard HD7084P, even when used in a vertical stack of 2. YMMV.

http://www.geocities.com/figbert/ant...irect91xg.html


----------



## Bill Johnson

I'm deliriously satisfied with the 4228 which by all common sense should not be doing for me what it is; but if I had any issues at all with long range beyond the envelope OTA, I'd be tempted to try the 91XG. Don't know how I'd get it into the attic, but that baby even looks like it would be extremely effective at pulling in UHF digital stations at the great distances I have -- to say nothing of the impressive specs it carries.


----------



## quarque

Just thought I would throw this out to you all:


For the past 3 years I have been doing line-of-sight checks for people in my area using a topographical program. Where I live (Seattle) the hills play a major factor in who get DT and who doesn't. Since things have quieted down a lot I have more time now. If you live in a hilly area and want a plot check just PM me your lat/lon or address and the call letters of the station(s) you are interested in. I will try to respond within 24 hours. If you know the locations of the towers that will save me the time of looking them up on the FCC site. If I am inundated with requests I will let you know the ETA on your plot. Each one takes about 20 minutes to do for say 6-7 stations.


----------



## holl_ands

What topographical program are you using? Does it do signal levels?


I started to do some propagation predictions for LA and San Diego area,

first using RFPROP, then some published SPLAT! curves for LA and now

RADIO MOBILE (incorporates the Longley-Rice Irregular Terrain Model).


Next on my agenda is to finish up a spread sheet calculator that includes

calculation for antenna gain, cable loss, etc at each channel frequency,

as well as effect of cascaded Noise Figure (Preamp/DistibutionAmp/HGTV).


Examples and setup info for RADIO MOBILE can be found here:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/2846.html


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by holl_ands_
> *What topographical program are you using? Does it do signal levels?
> 
> 
> I started to do some propagation predictions for LA and San Diego area,
> 
> first using RFPROP, then some published SPLAT! curves for LA and now
> 
> RADIO MOBILE (incorporates the Longley-Rice Irregular Terrain Model).
> 
> 
> Next on my agenda is to finish up a spread sheet calculator that includes
> 
> calculation for antenna gain, cable loss, etc at each channel frequency,
> 
> as well as effect of cascaded Noise Figure (Preamp/DistibutionAmp/HGTV).
> 
> 
> Examples and setup info for RADIO MOBILE can be found here:
> http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/2846.html *



I'm just using a map program called DeLorme Topo USA. It has topo data for the entire US and lets you do a profile from any point to another (among other things). This lets me see any intervening hills which is what we are mainly fighting in our area. If there is no line of sight from a tower to a receiving antenna then DT reception goes way down (duh).


The program has nothing to do with antennas or propagation. It is mainly aimed at recreational types looking for terrain info. It does have a 3D mode that lets you view a section in 3D projection that you can rotate - can be very handy sometimes.


----------



## homer1

I appreciate the info you told me about my location and line of sight enviroment. Do you get to see a map with your program? Maybe something in 3d, that could be pretty neat to see!


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by homer1_
> *I appreciate the info you told me about my location and line of sight enviroment. Do you get to see a map with your program? Maybe something in 3d, that could be pretty neat to see!*



Here's an example which was sent to me from a fellow AVS'er. On the right is Lexington, KY and on the left is somewhere in southern Ohio. The big dip is the Ohio river. The program does will do 3D representations as well.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> 
> Here's an example which was sent to me from a fellow AVS'er. On the right is Lexington, KY and on the left is somewhere in southern Ohio. The big dip is the Ohio river. The program does will do 3D representations as well.



At first glance, the attached map looks pretty impressive, but looking closer I'm afraid the map is out of proportion. The average depth of the Ohio River is only about 25 ft. and at its widest point it's only about 1 mile wide -- neither of which is supported by the map. I don't know about the foothills' measurements, but perhaps the maps aren't intended to be to scale, among other things. And if that's the case then -- borrowing a military phrase -- as you were.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Bill Johnson_
> *At first glance, the attached map looks pretty impressive, but looking closer I'm afraid the map is out of proportion. The average depth of the Ohio River is only about 25 ft. and at its widest point it's only about 1 mile wide -- neither of which is supported by the map. I don't know about the foothills' measurements, but perhaps the maps aren't intended to be to scale, among other things. And if that's the case then -- borrowing a military phrase -- as you were.*



I can't vouge for the accuracy of the program but that part doesn't seem that misrepresented to me. Regardless of the depth/width of the Ohio river, the gorge it has cut over millenia is much wider and deeper. At least at Covington going north on I-75 this is certainly true.


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by homer1_
> *I appreciate the info you told me about my location and line of sight enviroment. Do you get to see a map with your program? Maybe something in 3d, that could be pretty neat to see!*



You see a terrain map from above that is very detailed and you can zoom in so that your full CRT is viewing about a 200' x 200' chunk. You can also pull up a second panel that shows the enclosed area in 3D and viewed from an angle of 15 degrees to about 75 degrees and from any point on the compass. You can zoom in and out on both panels at the same time. Very good for sighting down canyons - see my post from a few days ago about Hells Canyon.


cpcat - your image looks very much like the DeLorme plots/profiles I see. From the little bit of testing I've done in Washington state, they appear to be very accurate. I know I have been surprised a few times at what the profile looked like from one point to another.


did you mean vouch?


vouge -

n : a kind of pike used by foot soldiers in the 14th century


for mounting antennas in the 21st century...


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by quarque_
> *.
> 
> 
> did you mean vouch?
> 
> 
> vouge -
> 
> n : a kind of pike used by foot soldiers in the 14th century
> 
> 
> for mounting antennas in the 21st century...*



Yes, thanks. That Ohio river gorch is perty deep though isn't it?


----------



## Bill Johnson

I've been fascinated with topo maps for a number of years now and cp is providing really useful & intriguing info here for many of us. Nevertheless, on an X/Y axis layout having vastly different distances (miles compared to feet), I know of no way to make it look proportional. If there are any geographical features resembling those on the map anywhere on an 80 mile stretch of this earth, I desperately want to go there immediately and see them in person.


Still, the map within its limitations represents graphically actual terrain and I'm glad to see it on this forum. Kudos to cp and the fellow AVS'r forwarding it.


----------



## quarque

Bill - I think they are using a special algorithm to exaggerate the "edges" much like sharpening routines do for graphics. Otherwise the narrow features would disappear altogether because of the resolution limit of PC displays. The plots look much more realistic for a 5-mile stretch in my experience. The main thing we're interested in are the high spots between point A and point B. If one of those spikes is in the way it is trouble. Those seem to show up reliably even if they are not scaled properly.


----------



## Bill Johnson

Que- What you just indicated sounds reasonable and I'm glad we're now pretty much in agreement about this fascinating map.


----------



## firemantom26




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Bill Johnson_
> *I'm deliriously satisfied with the 4228 which by all common sense should not be doing for me what it is; but if I had any issues at all with long range beyond the envelope OTA, I'd be tempted to try the 91XG. Don't know how I'd get it into the attic, but that baby even looks like it would be extremely effective at pulling in UHF digital stations at the great distances I have -- to say nothing of the impressive specs it carries.*




I use the cm-4228 7777 amp and I have had good luck with it. I am always looking to improve reception, Is the 91XG a better antenna or is 4228 better?

antenna?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by firemantom26_
> *I use the cm-4228 7777 amp and I have good luck with it. I am always looking to improve reception Is the 91XG a better antenna or is 4228 better
> 
> antenna?*



If you're having good luck with an antenna, I don't recommend changing it for something that is "technically" better. Once you've got perfect reception, stop fussing.


Yagi/corner-reflector hybrids do better at some things than stacked-bowtie designs. Stacked bowtie designs do better at other things than yagi/corner-reflectors. I usually recommend that people having problems with the 4228 switch to a yagi/corner-reflector. I also usually recommend people having trouble with yagi/corner-reflectors switch to stacked bowties. Since they have different strengths, they offer a much better chance of success if one design is failing than a similar family antenna with just slightly better characteristics.


The 91XG is a better choice if you're using a rotor. It should outperform the CM4228 on channels above 42 or so. It may be weaker on channels below 30. There are too many variables to be sure one will be better than the other.


If your curiosity is killing you, AntennasDirect has an excellent return policy, costing you only shipping to try it out.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Bill Johnson_
> *At first glance, the attached map looks pretty impressive, but looking closer I'm afraid the map is out of proportion. The average depth of the Ohio River is only about 25 ft. and at its widest point it's only about 1 mile wide -- neither of which is supported by the map. I don't know about the foothills' measurements, but perhaps the maps aren't intended to be to scale, among other things. And if that's the case then -- borrowing a military phrase -- as you were.*



Its squeezing 106 miles of terrain data along the plotted path into a few inches of space. Some of the "spikes" you see are actually more rolling hills. But, the profile is to scale, and the data is quite accurate from what I have seen. It does not of course take curvature of Earth into account.


How deep the water in the river is has nothing to do with it. The bed of Ohio river at Cincinnati sits at about 459FT above sea level. Paul Brown Stadium on the Banks is at about 480FT. The tops of some of the hills(within less than a mile of the center of the river, Price Hill, Mt Adams/etc) right along the River at Cincinnati are at 800FT+ ASL. In some places it's flat along the banks(such as right at Downtown Cincinnati), In some places there are hills(not necessarily right at the banks of the river, but in some cases that is the case), this profile is only showing the terrain along a "direct line" path from ay location about 36 Miles North of Ohio River~Cincinnati to a TV tower in Lexington, KY at right.


Update: This might help. Attached is a portion of the topo map(just a 2D view from above in this case) within a few miles of Ohio river concerning where the profile Cpcat provided above crosses the Ohio river, which happens to occur a few Miles SE of Downtown Cincinnati. The Red line is what was used for the elevation profile cpcat provided. Scale bar is at right(had to "move it" a bit given the limitations on attached graphics), the lat/long coordinates+elevation is for the point of red line at about middle of river. I would have liked to "zoom it in" to show 20FT intervals instead of 100FT for the contour lines, but that would have taken quite a large graphic for you to see everything and fit in a couple miles on either side of Ohio River where the profile "line" crosses the river.


----------



## VMsat

I recently bought and installed my CM 4228. When it arrived I noticed that two of the elements on two of the bowties were missing. The missing ones were on the second bowtie down on the right and te third bowtie down on the left, so it looked symmetrical, and I thought maybe it was suppose to be like this. But I have seen pictures and all eight bowties had all four elements. Do you think this is messing up the antenna reception. I only get channels some of the time, but I also live in an area which is notoriously hard to recieve signals.


----------



## quarque

VMsat - well it certainly is not helping matters. Can you see any obvious signs of damage where the elements attach (i.e. evidence of forceful removal)? I'd exchange it for a "complete" antenna.


----------



## firemantom26

I would send it back too.




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by VMsat_
> *I recently bought and installed my CM 4228. When it arrived I noticed that two of the elements on two of the bowties were missing. The missing ones were on the second bowtie down on the right and te third bowtie down on the left, so it looked symmetrical, and I thought maybe it was suppose to be like this. But I have seen pictures and all eight bowties had all four elements. Do you think this is messing up the antenna reception. I only get channels some of the time, but I also live in an area which is notoriously hard to recieve signals.*


----------



## vdorta

According to antennaweb.org, I live about 12 miles from the closest station and 15.5 miles from the farthest one, at ground level, with no obstructions of importance. All stations come from the same quadrant (50-52 degrees). With a non-amplified Terk HDTVi indoor antenna we only get one station (at about 12 miles) reliably and with good signal strength; the rest are either not received at all or very rarely. I would like to stick to an indoor antenna if possible. Would switching to an amplified Terk TV5 or Radio Shack 15-1880 solve my problem? What about adding an amplifier to my current antenna?


Thanks,


Val


----------



## j_buckingham80

For a good small indoor antenna, I don't know that you can beat antennas direct DB2. I think they're currently on back order though, excellent little UHF antenna, (most likely) outperform the Terk antennaes and the Radio Shack.

http://www.antennasdirect.com/db2_bowtie_antenna.htm 


Of course both the HDTVi and this one are directional, so, if you're in the middle of a couple stations you'd want something multi-directional.


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by vdorta_
> *According to antennaweb.org, I live about 12 miles from the closest station and 15.5 miles from the farthest one, at ground level, with no obstructions of importance. All stations come from the same quadrant (50-52 degrees). With a non-amplified Terk HDTVi indoor antenna we only get one station (at about 12 miles) reliably and with good signal strength; the rest are either not received at all or very rarely. I would like to stick to an indoor antenna if possible. Would switching to an amplified Terk TV5 or Radio Shack 15-1880 solve my problem? What about adding an amplifier to my current antenna?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Val*



At that distance you do not want any amplifiers. In fact you may need an attenuator if anything. Radio Shack has a cheap variable one. One of the best indoor antennas is the Zenith Silver Sensor (sold by Sears and others). It is somewhat directional. You do NOT want a "multi-directional" or "omni-directional" antenna. All they do is pick up reflected signals and cause the receiver to bounce around trying to lock on to one of them (unsuccessfully). Terk is not highly rated around AVS. Also, indoor antennas in general are problematic. You have to contend with your house and all nearby house's effects on signals. One of the best indoor setups is a CM 4221 in the attic. Works very well for many even if it is a little big and ugly for the living room. Although some have stuck them in a window behind a curtain. It certainly wouldn't hurt to try the 15-1880 since you can easily return it.


----------



## JLaamanen

Hi guys, I'm back










I've got a couple more Qs.


Here's some pics from my attic. Can anybody ID or give opinion?

(Note: My first time posting pics and making my webpage, plus I changed a handful of burned out light bulbs while I had the ladder out! You guys are slave drivers










Here's the UHF, looks like it's not a CM 4221 remember that it's from 1990.

http://hometown.aol.com/newsgroupjohn/images/uhf.jpg 

http://hometown.aol.com/newsgroupjohn/images/combo.jpg 


VHF is good except chn 9 CBET from Windsor, Ontario eh?

It's in different direction and farther than others, but no hockey now









http://hometown.aol.com/newsgroupjohn/images/vhf.jpg 

http://hometown.aol.com/newsgroupjoh...s/vhfvjobs.jpg 


These are combined in attic (no or minimal loses???)

I gave the UHF a twist based on compass. I went a long time w/o dropouts/freezes but lately some on chn 4 (45), WDIV @210deg. Didn't troubleshoot a lot, because I was watching another channel that was rock steady. Now, I have a plan to check analog UHF if possible when it acts up.


Have read in Detroit thread that when I had DOs, cable AND satellite also did. This had led me to wonder if problems may not be OTA reception










Also have noticed UHF analog appears to me to be more ghosty than snowy, even if ghosts are weak, stable and generally look "OK" although I've heard "static" in sound even when picture is quite good (analog). Does this imply MP or weakness, or does it depend?


If I knew I could use a 4228 to solve problems I think I'd try it. Might have to do some disassembly to get it thru opening and it would be a pain to add a rotor, I'm not sure what the consensus is w/ or w/o rotor. This would be under the assumption I could cut down MP, and still have strength, but maybe I'd be fooling myself.


Thanks

John


Original post>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I got a new Pio plasma and hooked it up to the attic antenna (condo) I had installed when it was built about 15 yrs ago. I don't know what it is and haven't been up there yet to look.


I get from the high 70s to low 90s on sig strength screen, which is not easy to monitor when watching. I've seen some dropouts or freezes for up to a few seconds which I think *may* be associated with rain or possibly wind or fog(!)? When conditions are right for this, the signal goes down to 40 or 50 briefly. (Is it likely that this is multipath?)


This is what antennaweb shows:


DTV Antenna


* red - uhf WWJ-DT 62.1 CBS DETROIT MI 200° 14.1 44

* red - uhf WTVS-DT 43.1 PBS DETROIT MI 200° 14.1 43

* red - uhf WXYZ-DT 7.1 ABC DETROIT MI 218° 14.1 41

* red - uhf WKBD-DT 50.1 UPN DETROIT MI 230° 15.3 14

* red - uhf WDWB-DT 20.1 WB DETROIT MI 200° 14.1 21

* red - uhf WJBK-DT 2.1 FOX DETROIT MI 210° 13.9 58

* red - uhf WDIV-DT 4.1 NBC DETROIT MI 210° 12.3 45

* red - uhf WADL-DT 39.1 IND MOUNT CLEMENS MI 126° 12.9 39


From what I've read here, I get the impression that:


1. Multipath may be my problem vs. signal "strength".

2. An amp may cause a problem instead of solve it.


I haven't seen much about how directional antennas are and I wonder if I don't have a highly directional one, would one be likely to solve my problem since these stations that I'm interested in are within 30 deg?

(Any recommendations, assuming I can fit it in.)


Is there any easy way to verify the coax and connectors are good? (With ohm meter etc?)


Would it be foolish to try a preamp halfway between the antenna and TV, where I have a coupling for the coax already?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


From sregner)


1. Probably. But diagnosing reception problems with digital meters is never easy. If you have UHF analog stations broadcasting from the same towers at the same relative power (take digital and multiply by 5 for analog equivalent) then watching them can tell you what the problem is. Does the picture get very snowy? Or do you get moving ghosts? The answer to that question will tell you the answer to your problem. Snow = weak signals. Ghosts = multipath.


2. 30 degrees is not a directional antenna. A directional antenna should have an acceptance angle of less than 10 degrees. Examples include the Channel Master 4228 and the Antennas Direct 91XG. Either of these would probably require a rotor.


3. If you're getting signals that are routinely in the 70s+, your coax is most probably good. If you consistently had problems above or below a certain frequency, things would be different.


4. Foolish? If you've got snow on the analog test in answer #1 above, no. If you've got any ghosting now or when you have issues, yes.


(From cpcat)

You need to get up there and take a picture of the antenna and post it here. At your distance, a CM 4221 should work and has a beamwidth of around 60 degrees. If you're already using something equivalent though, you'll have to go bigger. Sometimes attics can really block the signals. If you can't get the pic at least desribe what it looks like.


----------



## quarque

Originally posted by JLaamanen


Here's some pics from my attic. Can anybody ID or give opinion?

(Note: My first time posting pics and making my webpage, plus I changed a handful of burned out light bulbs while I had the ladder out! You guys are slave drivers










Here's the UHF, looks like it's not a CM 4221 remember that it's from 1990.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------



Whether it is a CM or not is moot. The design is similar to the 4221. Have you tried an attenuator? If not, go to Rat Shack and buy their cheap variable attenuator and stick it right behind your receiver so you can adjust it while watching the screen. You are so close to the towers that you may have *too much* signal (not to mention reflections). The attenuator will reduce all of them and hopefully just the main signal will get through.


----------



## sf49ersnfl

i was just curious if the antenna direct db2 is better then the silver sensor indoors? I live about 45 miles from the stations and want to pull in cbs hd which is 21.6 kw.


----------



## quarque

sf49 - impossible to say. Each will work better than the other in certain circumstances. Each antenna has its own gain profile with high & low gain areas going around the compass points. These lobes & nulls can be "skinny" or "wide" in shape as well as differing in number. So each accepts and rejects signals a little different from the other. In your living room it is impossible to know beforehand which combination will work best. The best one can do is guess at a good starting point based on anecdotal data, design data and user's experiences. Eventually you find that the SS works well more often than others like Terk. That is not to say that Terk never works, just statistically it is less likely when starting from scratch. The DB2 is a proven double-bowtie design and works well in some places, I'm sure.


At 45 miles it will be tough to pull in a 21.6 kW signal indoors, but anything is possible! All of the major networks in our area are at 600kW or more. I certainly hope that CBS station is planning to boost power soon - what are the call letters?


----------



## JLaamanen

quarque,


I picked up one of those antenna-u-ators and hooked it up on the DTV input. Was surprised how low I could dial "signal strength" down and maintain pic (at least in a short test, but will do more investigation). What I need now is a channel acting up. What concerns me a little is the report that cable and satellite was having problems w/ "West Wing" when I saw them too. I hope I'm not trying to fix network feed problems. Maybe I should move it to work on the analog input too, hmmmm.


Thanks,

John



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by quarque_
> *
> 
> Whether it is a CM or not is moot. The design is similar to the 4221. Have you tried an attenuator? If not, go to Rat Shack and buy their cheap variable attenuator and stick it right behind your receiver so you can adjust it while watching the screen. You are so close to the towers that you may have *too much* signal (not to mention reflections). The attenuator will reduce all of them and hopefully just the main signal will get through.*


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sf49ersnfl_
> *i was just curious if the antenna direct db2 is better then the silver sensor indoors? I live about 45 miles from the stations and want to pull in cbs hd which is 21.6 kw.*



In general an outdoor is always better then an indoor antenna. 45 miles you'll need a mid size outdoor for reliable DT reception.


----------



## tpalik

I am now without HD having ditched my RS 15-1880 indoor beastie. I am now looking at either the CM3016 or RS 15-2152 to reach two antenna farms, one about 16 miles away and the other at 34 miles.


As I live in an area susceptible to hurriances I don't want an outdoor mount so would be looking for an attic install. I can accomodate an 80" boom (just) with about 45 degrees of turning radius for adjustments. The two antenna farms are about 100 degrees apart.


My question is about expected attenuation due to the attic root. It is a clay-tile roof with felt underneath then plywood on the inside. I will mount high enough to clear the A/C ducting but still expect some attenuation but don't know how much.


On a similar vein what attenuation would one expect from 50' of RG-6 ?


Any insight from people with similar experience appreciated.


Cheers,

Tony


----------



## dapack5

how does anyone go about stacking 2 uhf antennas? i.e. using a combiner or ? does it serve to boost a signal or just try to gather more signal? i am about 90 air miles from the towers of the stations i would like to try to receive and i can get 1 of them about 65% of the time but it breaks up and one of them about 45% of the time but one i can get almost all the time. i am currently trying 2 different antennas 1: is the winegard i have asked questions about ( dedicated UHF ) and 1: is the radioshack VU90XR. i have also thought about getting the xg91 but haven't quite decided if it's worth it or not! i live in Lehigh Acres,Florida 33936 and the stations are in Miami and West Palm Beach. last weekend i had approximately 13 HDTV channels but now only 2.


any info on the possibility of stacking antennas (if it would help) is greatly appreciated.










no hills or mountains to interfere with reception


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dapack5_
> *i am about 90 air miles from the towers of the stations i would like to try to receive...
> 
> 
> any info on the possibility of stacking antennas (if it would help) is greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no hills or mountains to interfere with reception*



At 90 miles, it isn't the hills or mountains that get in the way - it's the earth itself! The earth is curved and for an antenna mounted about 330 meters above average terrain, UHF signals run "aground" at 60 miles.


Whatever signal you are getting is a result of the troposphere helping you out. You're lucky in that Florida often gets a lot of tropospheric help, but it's not the kind of thing you can count on.


Stacking theoretically increases gain by 3db. While that doesn't sound like much, 3db is a doubling of the signal received by the receiver (this will not mean that you get an increase of 50% on your signal strength meter.) Stacking also increases directionality of your antenna, which is useful if multipath is the problem.


In my experience, one really good antenna is the ideal for long-distance reception. But nothing can overcome a bad location or extreme distances. AntennasDirect has a good return policy, so it may be worth a shot. But otherwise, I'd skip the stacking.


(For stacking, you need two identical antennas, connected to a splitter using cables of exactly the same length. If you use coax, you have to make sure the baluns also are "in phase" or you'll cancel the antennas out. For maximum gain, they should be stacked one above the other, at somewhere between 36" and 48".)


----------



## holl_ands

Re: Indoor and Attic UHF Signal Attenuation.


I've been doing some searching for information on this subject.


If your house is made of RF shielding material, such as a mylar aluminum "heat shield" or foil backed insulation material or aluminum siding, then the signal leaks in via windows and may be attenuated by 20 dB. People walking in front of the antenna may cause another 3-6 dB of attenuation.


During an on-the-air statistical gathering test of the Brazilian ATSC system, the MEDIAN indoor attenuation was 12.5 dB, which means that some homes have a lot more attenuation to make up for those of more typical tropical open construction.


So far in my search, I haven't seen much information wrt real-world attic attenuation, but I did run across a laboratory test that measured attenuation for basic building materials:
http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build97/art123.html 


A few germaine measurements:

500 MHz, 10000 MHz

0.4 dB, 2.6 dB, Double thickness, wood planking

0.35 dB, 0.75 dB, Single thickness, 3/4 in Plywood

0.2 dB, 0.8 dB, Single thickness, 1/4 in Glass


It appears that the roofing material attenuation for UHF is about 1 dB for low channels and 2 dB for high channels.

Of course, in a real attic there are metal nailing plates, wood struts and other objects that can perturb the antenna gain pattern and generate multipath reflections.

So the total reduction is probably 2-3 dB.


----------



## holl_ands

Re: RG-6 Attenuation.


Depends on the part number.

Belden makes over a dozen different part numbers with attenuation per 100 feet of cable

ranging from 4 to 9 dB for the high UHF channels and 3.5 to 6 for the low UHF channels.

The Quad Shield products tend to be in the middle of this range.

Of course, cable from your local home outlet may be different....


All the more reason to use a preamp, which does several things to improve the overall sensitivity:

1) replaces the HDTV's tuner with the much more sensitive (5-10 dB) preamplifier,

2) overcomes the reduction in sensitivity due to the cable downlead and RF splitters (another 5-10+ dB)

and 3) minimizes the DTV signal degradation due to VSWR reflections (another 2-6 dB).


If signal levels are high enough to overload a preamp, an attenuator may need to be used prior to the preamp, such as is integrated into the R-S model, which should yield a considerable portion of the above improvements.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by holl_ands_
> *So far in my search, I haven't seen much information wrt real-world attic attenuation
> *



In document at link below which among other things describes results of 2600 field tests(some indoors, all in U.S.) of ATSC reception : They found typical outdoor to indoor signal attenuation to be in the range of about -9~-13db ... see table 7 in section 5.3 and paragraph immediately below table 7 on page 20 of PDF file at link below :

http://www.atscforum.org/doc/FieldTestReport.pdf


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dapack5_
> *any info on the possibility of stacking antennas (if it would help) is greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



In addition to srenger's excellent info, here is an excellent article on stacking antennas :

http://pages.cthome.net/fmdx/stackant.html


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by holl_ands_
> *3) minimizes the DTV signal degradation due to VSWR reflections (another 2-6 dB).*



VSWR doesn't cause that much loss. The formula for attenuation due to VSWR is:


K = (VSWR - 1) / (VSWR + 1)


attenuation in dB = 10 log (1 - K^2)


A very high VSWR of 6:1 only causes 3 dB of attenuation. A more typical VSWR

of 2:1 causes 0.5 dB of attenuation.


Ron


----------



## dapack5




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Nitewatchman_
> *In addition to srenger's excellent info, here is an excellent article on stacking antennas :
> 
> http://pages.cthome.net/fmdx/stackant.html *



i just revisited antennaweb and added my address and info,according to what was found for my location,with the right antenna it's showing that i can receive stations from 68 miles to 84.2 miles away. keep in mind it doesn't say digital,just gives a list of stations that can be received. one of those station ( 84.2 miles away ) i do get the digital feed occassionally.

the other i can get analog only reception.


i went to antennaweb typed in this info


121 highview ave

lehigh acres,fl

33936

no towers

no tall buildings

click on submit

and it returns the info i spoke of


----------



## bobchase

Quote:

_Originally posted by tpalik_
*My question is about expected attenuation due to the attic...*
Tony,

Attics take a huge toll on the signal you get. The few that I have measured so far have been in the 20 dB range of attenuation. Those attics are made of standard asphalt shingles, over roofing felt, over plywood type construction. I have not been in an attic like yours.


Attics also cause reflections that the HDTV tuner has to equalize out and there is only so much equalization that is available. So that means there is less equalization available for the 'real world' multipath that is arriving over your house.


Some folks have good luck with the Channel Master CM7777 preamp. Inside the attic it is pretty hard to overload the front end of that particular amp. (Outside it can happen quite easily.) Given the right conditions, preamp will not overload but the output of the amp can overload the HDTV tuner . That is just one of the good reasons for using an attenuator at the receiver.


RG6 cable has a loss of about 4 dB per 50 ft in the UHF band. That 4 dB loss is one of the few planing factors the FCC got right when they made the table of allocations for HDTV.


I've attached a PDF of the measurements I did in my attic. All of the outside antenna gains are referenced to a Scala log-periodic antennas performance. The attic measurements are referenced to each antennas' own outside performance. So if you look at the green lines, the upper one is how the CM4221 compared to the Scala outside. The lower green line is what the attic did to the antenna. The difference between them is the loss that the attic caused.


Bob Chase

KHWB-TV

 

2004-12-11 testing attic antenna performance v03.pdf 129.5986328125k . file


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dr1394_
> *VSWR doesn't cause that much loss....A more typical VSWR
> 
> of 2:1 causes 0.5 dB of attenuation.
> 
> Ron*



Ron,

You are correct if you only look at attenuation as a factor of 'degradation'. No argument there. You are also right about 2:1 VSWR being typical. In fact, you might even be too generous, as antennas have worse VSWR characteristics than tuners.


VSWR also causes reflections. A tuner with a VSWR of 2:1 will reflect a signal that is -10 dB compared to the original signal back to the antenna. If the antenna also has a VSWR of 2:1, then it will reflect the 'reflection' back at the tuner. Assuming that there is 4 dB of cable loss, the reflection caused by tuner VSWR will arrive back at the tuner about 28 dB down (-28 dB) from the original and a little bit later than the original. To the tuner, it will look like a VERY strong multipath signal and the tuner will expend some of its equalizer on removing it, leaving less equalization available for the real signal.


VSWR reduction is one the reasons that attenuators help HDTV tuners improve reception. A 3 dB pad attenuates the VSWR reflection by 6 dB, a 10 dB pad attenuates the reflection 20 dB, and so on. Many people attribute the affect the attenuator has on reception only to the reduction of strong signals. I see time after time folks writing to say that "The attenuator worked, there must be a really strong signal that was killing me". While it is often really the weak, time delayed, signals that kill reception.


How VSWR affects TV reception is also one of the least understood things in the broadcast industry. See Dr. Charlie Rhodes articles on the TV Technology website for an in depth look HDTV reception. He is a huge proponent of attenuators, preamps, and wide-band AGC in tuners.


Bob Chase

KHWB-TV


----------



## phatboykim

Hi,

I've had the Silver Sensor for a few months now and for the most part, its been great. Recently, however, a few channels have started to drop in and out. Namely FOX and NBC and PBS (WTTW where I live). The tuner is having a hard time "latching" onto the signal - sometimes after a few minutes, it'll find it and the strength will go from 40% to 80-90% - but sometimes if just stays at 40-50% and therefore can't lock in.


Funny thing is, up until a few weeks ago, FOX and NBC were the strongest signals (and CBS was weak). Now, I get CBS OTA (at about 80%) and I have the aforementioned FOX/NBC issues!


Even weirder is that I haven't moved my antenna at all from the general area its been at for the last few months (which at the time, I found to be the "sweet spot" in my condo). I've also rescanned many times, manually added the channels, and scooted the antenna a tad to the left/right.


So... question: how can I improve the my signal strength (for FOX/NBC)? I can pick it up at times so I know I can get it, but how can I keep it consistent? Any suggestions? Amp, pre-amp, etc? (btw, I'm sort of new in the antenna world).


I live in CHicago about 5 miles from the towers according to antennaweb.


THANKS!!!


----------



## holl_ands

Re. Receive Antenna VSWR Degradation to DTV Receiver Sensitivity

(frequently expressed as an increase in the Noise Figure):


The issue is not the signal loss due to VSWR, but the degradation to the DTV signal (mostly envelope delay) due to delayed reflections up and down a long antenna cable.

Some DTV transmitters reportedly compensate for this degradation by pre-distorting the transmit waveform in accordance to information from a local feedback receiver.

At the receive end, connecting a preamp via a short cable greatly minimizes this not so well known problem.


The issue of DTV signal degradation due to antenna VSWR has been discussed in Doug Lung's TV Technology on-line column:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...dl-ieee2.shtml 
http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...-receive.shtml 
http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...antennas.shtml 


A more complete description is found on pg 63+ in the fol. ATSC Report: "Performance Assessment of the ATSC Transmission System, Equipment and Future Directions", Rev. 1.0, 12 April 2001 available from:
http://www.atsc.org/news_information/papers.html 


And Dielectric's website has O. Bendov's paper: "On the Validity of the Longley-Rice Propagation Model for HDTV Coverage and Interference Analysis":
http://www.dielectric.com/broadcast/longley-rice.asp 



So we should all hope that the antenna manufacturers are trying to reduce VSWR in order to claim that they are especially "For DTV".

Unfortunately, very few of them mention VSWR in their spec sheets (SquareShooter is exception).



A paper presented by Kerry Cozad at Oct04 IEEE Broadcast Technology Society re. DTV antenna VSWR and Gain measurements is cited in the fol., but I have not yet seen it. I would appreciate a copy if anyone has it.
http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...features.shtml 



Anyone know of any DTV Antenna VSWR measurements....or NEC simulation results?


----------



## holl_ands

Bob: Thanks for the valuable "real world" measurement re attic loss.

I'm surprised as how much more you measured for your attic compared to the statistical numbers found for a large number of lower, indoor locations in the above ATSC Field Test Report.


Could you remark on construction materials, esp roof and proximity of foil backed insulation either in the line of fire or below the antenna as well as any other nearby metal objects?

Also, how did you measure signal strength?


I'm surprised by how well the mast mounted CM4221 4-Bay performed compared to ANY of the presumably higher gain models....and how poorly the CM4248 Yagi performed both outside and in the attic.


And why did the Scala 1469 Log Periodic have 7+ dB less attenuation at mid to high frequencies in the attic than ALL of the other antennas, but was right in the middle of the pack outdoors? Very strange....


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by phatboykim_
> *So... question: how can I improve the my signal strength (for FOX/NBC)? I can pick it up at times so I know I can get it, but how can I keep it consistent? Any suggestions? Amp, pre-amp, etc? (btw, I'm sort of new in the antenna world).
> *



An amplifier is never a good idea inside of 10 miles from the transmitters, and rarely a good idea even 20 miles away. You might want to try a variable attenuator (Radio Shack sells one) and see if that makes a difference.


Your location, as I'm sure you know, is less than ideal for today's receiver technology. You probably have plenty of signal strength, but lots of multipath.


----------



## Jim1348

I am also thinking of a Channel Master 4228 8-Bay Bowtie UHF Antenna. I entered my information at www.antennaweb.org and it indicated that the channels that I am interested in are either 19.8 or 20.1 miles from me at either 355 or 357 degrees. The antenna will be in the attic above the garage. Do you guys think that this antenna will be adequate without an amplifier or should I just get an amplifier right away? I am thinking of just ordering from www.solidsignal.com Does anyone know if they are a good dealer to buy from?


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by bobchase_
> *VSWR also causes reflections. A tuner with a VSWR of 2:1 will reflect a signal that is -10 dB compared to the original signal back to the antenna. If the antenna also has a VSWR of 2:1, then it will reflect the 'reflection' back at the tuner. Assuming that there is 4 dB of cable loss, the reflection caused by tuner VSWR will arrive back at the tuner about 28 dB down (-28 dB) from the original and a little bit later than the original. To the tuner, it will look like a VERY strong multipath signal and the tuner will expend some of its equalizer on removing it, leaving less equalization available for the real signal.*



From Figure 23 in the reference that holl_ands cited:

http://www.atsc.org/news_information...Assessment.pdf 


It would appear that a -28 dB echo doesn't have much effect (especially

considering the it would take about 350 feet of feedline to generate a 1

microsecond VSWR induced echo).


Ron


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jim1348_
> *Do you guys think that this antenna will be adequate without an amplifier or should I just get an amplifier right away? I am thinking of just ordering from www.solidsignal.com Does anyone know if they are a good dealer to buy from?*



Twenty miles is well within the 4228's capabilities. Of course, if you've followed the attic discussions much, you know that those aren't the best places to put your antenna. Nevertheless, I don't recommend anyone purchase a preamplifier until they've determined that their reception problems are related to weak signal strength rather than multipath.


I haven't personally done business with Solid Signal, but others here have spoken highly of them. You can read independent reviews here:
http://www.resellerratings.com/seller8101.html


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by holl_ands_
> *I'm surprised as how much more you measured for your attic compared to the statistical numbers found for a large number of lower, indoor locations in the above ATSC Field Test Report.
> *



I expect windows allowing for less attenuation in the lower(1st floor) indoor locations in the field tests may have something to do with it.


----------



## georgemoe




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by phatboykim_
> *Hi,
> 
> I've had the Silver Sensor for a few months now and for the most part, its been great. Recently, however, a few channels have started to drop in and out. Namely FOX and NBC and PBS (WTTW where I live). The tuner is having a hard time "latching" onto the signal - sometimes after a few minutes, it'll find it and the strength will go from 40% to 80-90% - but sometimes if just stays at 40-50% and therefore can't lock in.
> 
> 
> Funny thing is, up until a few weeks ago, FOX and NBC were the strongest signals (and CBS was weak). Now, I get CBS OTA (at about 80%) and I have the aforementioned FOX/NBC issues!
> 
> 
> Even weirder is that I haven't moved my antenna at all from the general area its been at for the last few months (which at the time, I found to be the "sweet spot" in my condo). I've also rescanned many times, manually added the channels, and scooted the antenna a tad to the left/right.
> 
> 
> So... question: how can I improve the my signal strength (for FOX/NBC)? I can pick it up at times so I know I can get it, but how can I keep it consistent? Any suggestions? Amp, pre-amp, etc? (btw, I'm sort of new in the antenna world).
> 
> 
> I live in CHicago about 5 miles from the towers according to antennaweb.
> 
> 
> THANKS!!!*



I'm in a somewhat similar reception situation like you, and also new to HD OTA reception and antennas. The difference here is I'm further way, 30 miles west of the Boston antenna farms but like you using a Silver Sensor.


I was shocked to discover that I could actually receive anything at all from my distance with the SS. But I got virtually every (network) channel that I had interest in with decent lock when I hooked it up to my HR10-250 in mid February.


Over the last two weeks I've noticed problems with losing Fox WFXT and NBC WHDH. PBS along with ABC, CBS, UPN, and WB, are solid in the lower 90's.


My fear is my problem may be related to the coming Spring season and loss of snow cover. I'm prepared to move the SS outside if necessary and even put up an XG91 if needed. Just when I'll need to do this I'm not sure.


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *An amplifier is never a good idea inside of 10 miles from the transmitters, and rarely a good idea even 20 miles away. You might want to try a variable attenuator (Radio Shack sells one) and see if that makes a difference.
> *



Anyone know if the Rat Shack attenuator is 0-10dB or 0-20dB or ???


Edit: nevermind, I found it...


it's:


Attenuation: 0-20 dB

Return Loss:

5-500 MHz: 10 dB Min.

501-1000 MHz: 8 dB Min.


----------



## holl_ands

If you aren't too far away and are hoping to use your UHF antenna for VHF, the fol. claims that the Silver Sensor (indoor LPDA) did a "relatively good job" on Ch11, although the max gain was perpendicular to the UHF max gain direction:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...features.shtml 


There is a Polish Dipol antenna website that provides a gain figure of about 6+ dBi (4 dBp, relative to dipole) for their Model ASP-8A, a typical 4-Bay Bowtie with reflector (no preamp):
http://www.dipol.com.pl/esklep/a0033.htm 

[Note that Polish TV channels use 8 MHz spacing, so PolCh6-12 is our Ch7-13 and PolCh21-62 is our Ch14-69.]


Dipol also makes an ASP-8W Version 3 (about 10 Euros) that adds "whiskers", extending the length for some of the elements in a 4-Bay Bowtie in order to improve coverage in VHF band, plus a snap-in preamp module in place of the balun transformer (so the antenna gain numbers now cleverly incude the Preamp gain).

Unfortunately, they don't provide a curve for this improved model.

Go to fol and Click on the pdf catalog for TV Antenna and Channel info:
http://www.dipol.com.pl/e01.htm 

and english entry point to website:
http://www.dipol.com.pl/eindex.htm 


As you can see, all they did was turn one of the bow-tie elements into a dipole that resonates at a much lower frequency.

And since the VSWR for a wideband UHF antenna is never going to be all that good to begin with....what the heck, perturb away....

So I've got my bailing wire "extenders" ready to go for my CM-4221 when they fire up VHF DTV in our area...


----------



## Xesdeeni

I added the 3041 pre-amp to my attic antenna, and my reception when to pot. I removed the distribution amplifier, and things were very good. But I don't really get any better digital reception than before. I'm about 38 miles from the antennas, and I have a 3018 antenna. So some questions...


1. I may have turned the antenna a bit during installation of the pre-amp. Is there an easy way to adjust the direction based on signal strength? I don't have a field strength meter, but just trying to adjust for analog look or digital bit rate error (reported as pseudo signal strength) seems very unscientific, on top of the fact that none of those displays is in the attic :-|


2. Does the angle of the boom matter much? Should it be level? Tilted down or up?


3. I had to run a length of twin-lead between the antenna and the pre-amp. It is about 3 feet long or so (pre-fab). Is this a problem?


4. Why am I seeing almost no signal with the distribution amp in the circuit? I have the antenna feeding potentially 10 tuners, so I figured the distribution amp would be appropriate. Without it, it seems OK feeding 5 tuners right now, but I worry about further distribution.


5. Should I switch in the FM trap? It was on when I bought it, so I left it, but I don't know if that's a problem or a benefit.


Xesdeeni


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Xesdeeni_
> *1.Is there an easy way to adjust the direction based on signal strength?
> 
> 
> 2. Does the angle of the boom matter much? Should it be level? Tilted down or up?
> 
> 
> 3. I had to run a length of twin-lead between the antenna and the pre-amp. It is about 3 feet long or so (pre-fab). Is this a problem?
> 
> 
> 4. Why am I seeing almost no signal with the distribution amp in the circuit?
> 
> 
> 5. Should I switch in the FM trap? It was on when I bought it, so I left it, but I don't know if that's a problem or a benefit.*



1. The signal meter, tuned to the weakest station you get, is probably the best method, short of a dB meter.


2. The angle matters, and how much depends on how directional your antenna is. Generally speaking, they all work about the same +/- a few degrees. If you have a lot of airplanes, pointing down benefits some, and if you're in a valley or shooting over the horizon, pointing up benefits some.


3. There's no reason that this should be a problem, but if you could get the preamp closer, that would be better.


4. Distribution amplifiers usually insert a lot of noise into the picture. They can also overload. (This assumes that you had it wired correctly and the preamplifier was receiving power properly - distribution amps will not pass DC, so if you had the distribution amp between your preamp's indoor and outdoor units, it wouldn't work right.) Generally speaking, you're better off not using one unless you have to.


5. The FM trap blocks FM signals. This is beneficial if you don't want to receive FM signals through your antenna, and your amplifier amplifies VHF signals. FM resides just above Channel 6 on the broadcast spectrum, and if your amplifier tries to amplify that, it will take some of the power that could be used for television broadcasts. Add to this the fact that FM signals can be quite strong, and you've got a couple of good reasons to use the FM trap.


----------



## phatboykim

thanks all -- I'll look into getting an attenuator.


----------



## digiblur

I've been reading for almost a week on this board and can't seem to make a decision. I'm in the 70714 zip code and have used antennaweb.org and checkhd.com to check my data. It looks like most of my HD channels are all in one direction. I had a spare RG6 available from the TV to the attic so for kicks I put one of those TV top RCA UHF/VHF amplified antannas in the attic. To my suprise I picked up several HD channels. My Hitachi TV has the built in QAM tuner and I can pick up UPN, WB, ABC, FOX, CBS, NBC, and PBS in HD with my basic cable subscription but I find the OTA channels to have better quality. The OTA's I picked up are 2-1, 9-1, and 25-1 (including their subchannels). These are in the 80's of signal strength.


Now my TV can find the following channels but can not lock in: 17-1, 23-1, 36-1, and 40-1. I've even tried the same antenna on top of the house but I guess I need a real antenna to pick them up. I don't have a problem with an outside mount antenna so what should I get? I really worried about buying the wrong thing and not being able to return it. Should I get an amp with the antenna?


Do I just order the antenna and go to the hardware store and get some piping to mount on the side of the house? I'm currently living in a typical one-story brick home. The neighborhood is pretty much covered with very large oaks in everyones front yard.


It seems I get conflicting info from the two above websites? Does anyone have another website that I can find out about the HD channels in my area?


Thanks for all the help guys!


----------



## quarque

digiblur - PM your address to me and I will try to help you sort it out. We need to first find out if there are any topograhical problems (you can't move a hill). Could you also send the call letters of the stations you want so I can easily look up their coordinates? If you know your lat/lon you can go to: http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp 

But none of the online sites account for topography. That is a killer in my area.


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by digiblur_
> *....It seems I get conflicting info from the two above websites? Does anyone have another website that I can find out about the HD channels in my area?*



Try pasting this into your web browser. The red lines shown in the antenna pattern point to you. (Well, actually at your post office.)

http://www.2150.com/broadcast/defaul...=Show+Stations 


There are instructions on the top of the page and a link to a website to fine the exact lat & lin of your house.


Bob C


----------



## digiblur




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by quarque_
> *digiblur - PM your address to me and I will try to help you sort it out. We need to first find out if there are any topograhical problems (you can't move a hill). Could you also send the call letters of the stations you want so I can easily look up their coordinates? If you know your lat/lon you can go to:
> 
> But none of the online sites account for topography. That is a killer in my area.*



What topography? LOL. I live in Louisiana. What does a hill look like?







It's all flat here.


I don't feel comfortable with PM'ing an address. If you punch in 70714 in any of the websites I mentioned above or even Mapquest.com you'll be pretty close to my address.


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dr1394_
> *From Figure 23 in the reference that holl_ands cited:
> 
> http://www.atsc.org/news_information...Assessment.pdf
> 
> 
> It would appear that a -28 dB echo doesn't have much effect (especially
> 
> considering the it would take about 350 feet of feedline to generate a 1
> 
> microsecond VSWR induced echo).
> 
> 
> Ron*



Ron,


Your point is noted and I don't have a paper to offer a rebuttal. I do know that multipath of -30 dB or higher is a concern.


Take a look at page 66 of the document for signal loss & group delay due to VSWR. Group delay expends tap energy too.


Bob


----------



## JLaamanen

Continuing story...


After playing w/ RS variable attenuator, it doesn't seem easy to attenuate out dropouts and freezes on chn 4 (45) an NBC channel. One thing I've noticed is that the closed captioning is often garbage even when the pic, sound and strenght meter are good. The DO and freezes seem to corespond w/ strength meter droppng. I can't say I've seen it on other stations.


Anybody got a clue about the CC problem? Is it particularly sensitive to MP?


Any good site to look up power of stations? Antennaweb is nice for diretion and distance, but I think relative power might be interesting.

(I will search thread










(edit...hmmm you guys are reading my mind, that 2150 site looks familiar










Thanks

John


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by digiblur_
> *What topography? LOL. I live in Louisiana. What does a hill look like?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's all flat here.
> 
> 
> I don't feel comfortable with PM'ing an address. If you punch in 70714 in any of the websites I mentioned above or even Mapquest.com you'll be pretty close to my address.*



I had no idea where 70714 was. Yup, it's flat alright. I used the center of that zip code area and you have 5 stations in the same general direction ranging from 9 miles to 20 miles away. You have one VHF and 4 UHF stations so you might get away with a UHF-only antenna since the VHF station is ch 13. A good place the start is the Channel Master 4221/3021 but for easy returns you can first try the Rat Shack 15-2160. Also get the RS variable attenuator to put just behind your receiver. Your stations are low power except for PBS at 200 kW - may need attenuation. The low power on the others may be a problem if you have lots of trees to go through. It may take a lot of experimentation and patience.


----------



## bobchase

Quote:

_Originally posted by holl_ands_
*Bob: Thanks for the valuable "real world" measurement re attic loss.

I'm surprised as how much more you measured for your attic compared to the statistical numbers found for a large number of lower, indoor locations in the above ATSC Field Test Report.


Could you remark on construction materials, esp roof and proximity of foil backed insulation either in the line of fire or below the antenna as well as any other nearby metal objects?

Also, how did you measure signal strength?


I'm surprised by how well the mast mounted CM4221 4-Bay performed compared to ANY of the presumably higher gain models....and how poorly the CM4248 Yagi performed both outside and in the attic.


And why did the Scala 1469 Log Periodic have 7+ dB less attenuation at mid to high frequencies in the attic than ALL of the other antennas, but was right in the middle of the pack outdoors? Very strange....*
holl_ands ,


The roof is standard asphalt shingles, over 15# roofing felt, over 1/2" plywood. The metal flashing at the edge of the roof is minimal, maybe a 2"x1" angle, just enough to cover the edge of the plywood. (No ice on the gulf coast of Texas.)


Texas attics in general (and mine specifically) have lots of metal foil covered flexible ducts for the AC. In mine, there is also a hot water heater and two combination furnace/AC evaporator/fan units up there. All of these were behind the antennas during testing.


Testing was done with a spectrum analyzer using the Max Hold function. The data was allowed to build for three minutes and then downloaded into Excel on the laptop. I also used Excel to extract the analog channels visual carrier peak value and the level at the middle of the digital channels from the 4001 data points. The extracted data shows up as the data-points on the graph.


As the Scala truly is flat (+/- 0.2 dB) across the UHF band, it was declared the graphs base line when it was outside on the mast. Then, each antenna's performance was compared to the Scala by subtraction. (Subtracting logarithms is really division, hence it gives us the Relative Gain Ratio of the antennas.) So comparing the 4228 to the 4248 is a real comparison of the relative gain between them that was experienced in this one location. The method is not as clean and scientific as I would like but I think that it does show the relative gain of the antennas outside.


In the attic, all bets are off. 1st, there is the consequences of the attic refections punching through the back-side of the antennas, either adding to or subtracting from the signal coming into the front. 2nd, attic placement turns out to be as important as what antenna is purchased to put up there. (see the attachment to this post.)


I've got some more data taken from another attic but I have not had time to extract it. So all I can say at this point is that that attic was more transparent to UHF than mine was. It also had a sizable window, perhaps 3'x6', in the general direction of the antenna farm. We were close to downtown, well into the city, with lots of taller buildings all around.


What started me on this adventure was just plain curiosity. I had heard so many glowing reports about the CM7777 and how much it improved reception, that I just couldn't believe what I was reading. My previous experience with preamps has always been a disappointment. While they may have reduced the amount of 'snow', they always added noise (grain) and intermodualtion products (IM) that I couldn't stand to watch.


I had folks 10 to 15 miles from our transmitter reporting significant improvements in both analog and digital reception. I knew from experience that any preamp should be in serious overload, causing all sorts of IM, killing any chance of watching anything. Particularly in Houston, with 17 TV stations and 34 transmitters filling its front end with RF energy. It was when I tested the antennas in my attic that the proverbial light went off. The reason any preamp works for them is that there is a 20 dB attenuator in front of the preamp called 'The Attic'.


By the way, an indoor study done in the 60's at 3500 locations, where they measured the signal levels right at the owners TV set on ch-31, showed a median of 17.5 dB loss for wood frame and 26.9 dB loss for brick construction .


Bob C

 

testing attic antenna placement.pdf 201.1630859375k . file


----------



## digiblur




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by quarque_
> *You have one VHF and 4 UHF stations so you might get away with a UHF-only antenna since the VHF station is ch 13. A good place the start is the Channel Master 4221/3021 but for easy returns you can first try the Rat Shack 15-2160.*



I was looking at the CM3021, looks easy to mount on the outside of the house. I picked up RS 15-2160 today along with the adapter to go to RG6, I'll have to go stick it up on top of the house and see what it does. I'm assuming due to the close proximity I don't need an amplifier. I can pick up the VHF one just fine right now with the cheapy rabbit ears with the VHF antennas down without a problem. I'll post my results back.


Is there much of a gain difference in the RS 15-2160 and the CM3021?


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by digiblur_
> *I was looking at the CM3021, looks easy to mount on the outside of the house. I picked up RS 15-2160 today along with the adapter to go to RG6, I'll have to go stick it up on top of the house and see what it does. I'm assuming due to the close proximity I don't need an amplifier. I can pick up the VHF one just fine right now with the cheapy rabbit ears with the VHF antennas down without a problem. I'll post my results back.
> 
> 
> Is there much of a gain difference in the RS 15-2160 and the CM3021?*



Rat Shack doesn't publish their antenna gain. The CM 3021 is definetly a better of the 2 by far. At 20 miles the Rat Shack should do the job especially over flat land. I have a DT41 here at 21 miles with 91xg and even with 25DB front to back ratio I still get it off the back side.


----------



## tpalik

What would you suggest to catch two markets which are separated by 100 degrees as measured from my house ? The major is 16 miles away and the secondary is 35 miles. The first has two VHF-hi channels (8 & 9) and the other has VHF 13.


From what I can see, a join-tenna wouldn't do for the UHF since the channels are scattered between the two markets. I could do this on VHF though.


Another consideration is something small that won't catch much wind during hurricane season. I was all set for an attic install but the recent excellent posts on attic attenuation have given me food for thought.


I've been mulling this over and can only see the SqS with pre-amp given its wide beamwidth. Any other ideas ?


----------



## Nitewatchman

tpalik,


Seperate antennas on seperate feedlines with a A/B switch before receiver(some receivers even have 2 antenna inputs, RCA DTC-100 is one example) to switch between antennas -- Or a single antenna setup with rotor.


The 2 antenna/2 feedline setup is convienient(I do it here for 2 local markets, although I have a rotor on one antenna setup as well), and probably less expensive depending up what antenna(s) you decide to purchase. As for having to make the 2nd coax run, with rotor you'd have to run a rotor control cable anyway, and of course you don't have to wait for the rotor to rotate with 2 seperate antennas you just flip the switch(you can even get a remote controlled A/B switch as RS for about $50) ...


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *Rat Shack doesn't publish their antenna gain. The CM 3021 is definetly a better of the 2 by far. At 20 miles the Rat Shack should do the job especially over flat land. I have a DT41 here at 21 miles with 91xg and even with 25DB front to back ratio I still get it off the back side.*



Here are the specs for the RS 15-2160: http://support.radioshack.com/suppor...oc19/19192.htm 


Whether they're completely accurate, I don't know. I'd probably go with the 4221 over it as well especially for channels


----------



## digiblur

I put the 15-2160 up and I wasn't impressed at all. I actually lost more signal than I gained compared to my little amplified rabbit ear antenna in the attic. Actually just the opposite happened of what I expected. On the VHF 13 channel I went from the low 70's to the low 80's. The other 2 UHF channels I went from the low 80's to the low 70's.


I think I'm going to take the 15-2160 down and bring it back to RS and get the CM3021 antenna that everyone is raving about.


It looks like I'm stuck trying to pick up those 1kw signals that FOX and NBC are sending out in my area. I can pick up their analog signals decently so hopefully one day they will crank up the power on the digitals.


Another weird thing is the 200kw signal from PBS is in the 70's but yet the 30kw signal on channel 13 comes in with more power. Makes me believe that PBS isn't running 200kw. I even tried putting the antenna in the attic to determine if it was too much power but the signal dropped just like it was supposed to in the attic.


I'll post my findings on the CM3021 and I get it... thanks guys!


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by digiblur_
> *Another weird thing is the 200kw signal from PBS is in the 70's but yet the 30kw signal on channel 13 comes in with more power. Makes me believe that PBS isn't running 200kw.
> *



That is probably normal especially if the PBS is a UHF channel. It takes more power the higher the frequecy to achieve the same results. If you located in one of the topp 100 markets the 4 major networks have to be full power by July1 .


----------



## digiblur




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *That is probably normal especially if the PBS is a UHF channel. It takes more power the higher the frequecy to achieve the same results. If you located in one of the topp 100 markets the 4 major networks have to be full power by July1 .*



I figured that dealing with other RF technology, but I didn't think the ratio was that much with TV.


Do you have a list of the 100 markets?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by digiblur_
> *I figured that dealing with other RF technology, but I didn't think the ratio was that much with TV.
> 
> 
> Do you have a list of the 100 markets?*



Go here: http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/ 

click on your state, then area, and the DMA rank will be listed at the top right.


----------



## dapack5

how much of a difference is there between a dedicated UHF antenna and a vhf/uhf/fm antenna? is there that much of a gain difference? reading here in this forum it sounds as though the dedicated antenna performs much more efficiently than a combination antenna. i have asked this same question of local dealers here and i get just the opposite. are the sales on combined antennas down so far that they are just trying to sell them to get rid of them?


----------



## sebenste

Hey all,


Disclaimer: I don't work for this company, but I got great service

from them when I ordered stuff from them. Warren Electronics

in the Quad Cities (Moline, IL) has the 8-bay ChannelMaster 4228

UHF antenna on sale for $39.50. Unfortunately, I got mine there

when it was $53.95. Oh well. Go to Google and do a search

on Warren Electronics, then click on their antennas box when

you get to their site.


----------



## digiblur




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sebenste_
> *Hey all,
> 
> 
> Disclaimer: I don't work for this company, but I got great service
> 
> from them when I ordered stuff from them. Warren Electronics
> 
> in the Quad Cities (Moline, IL) has the 8-bay ChannelMaster 4228
> 
> UHF antenna on sale for $39.50. Unfortunately, I got mine there
> 
> when it was $53.95. Oh well. Go to Google and do a search
> 
> on Warren Electronics, then click on their antennas box when
> 
> you get to their site.*



Hmm...not a bad deal. I was thinking of the 3021 and I might just pick up the 4228 and call it done. After shipping costs Warren has SolidSignal beat by $5, I don't like the FedEx shipping though, might pay the extra $5 to get the UPS shipping from SolidSignal.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dapack5_
> *how much of a difference is there between a dedicated UHF antenna and a vhf/uhf/fm antenna? is there that much of a gain difference? reading here in this forum it sounds as though the dedicated antenna performs much more efficiently than a combination antenna. i have asked this same question of local dealers here and i get just the opposite. are the sales on combined antennas down so far that they are just trying to sell them to get rid of them?*



The more you narrow the spectrum of frequency you're trying to receive, the better the performance you'll get because the antenna can be designed for that specific frequency or range. This holds true pretty much all the way down to single-channel antennas. The broader the band of reception, the more trade-offs there will have to be in the design. There's just no getting around it.


Separate vhf/uhf sections also allow for independent aiming which is another advantage. The disadvantage obviously is that you have more than one antenna, they must have separation on the mast between them, and they thus take up more space on the mast and make for a longer lever arm if you're using a rotor.


If you need only uhf and high band vhf (7-13) though, you can actually get better performance with overall less windload/weight with separates.


----------



## dapack5

thanks for your response to my question. i guess now i'll go ahead and order the 91XG and see how it works for me. i've read that a well made UHF antenna can pick up high vhf channels. our local CBS affiliate ( WINK) is on channel 11 and when they finally start their HD feeds they were assigned channel 9. is anyone having any problems receiving their VHF channels that use the 91XG, as their only antenna?


i was referring to the 91XG as a XG91 and the price appears to be reasonable including the extra 5 bucks for the 3 day shipping.


----------



## rickmccamy

So It's spring time again and trees are leafing out. I have done a search on trees but it seemed that there was no definitive answer on leaf interference with OTA signals.

I have a CM4228 w/a 3041 pre-amp, I am some 40 miles from the towers and have just started experiencing some audio drops and pixelating on only one of my OTA channels. The D* RCA DTC 210 says I have 80%- 90%, could this be leaves or should I look elsewhere?

There are several trees leafing out within 15'- 30' of the antenna.

Perhaps I should get out the pruning saw and report back.


----------



## quarque

Yes, leaves can block signal and cause dropouts etc. Prune away! Or move your antenna.


----------



## Jim1348

I am thinking of getting either the Channel Master 4228 8-Bay Bowtie UHF Antenna CM-4228 or Winegard 8-Bay UHF Prostar 1000 High Definition TV Antenna (PR8800) from http://www.solidsignal.com Either one is $ 48.99. They appear to be virtually identical, but I am just curious if one of them is actually built better than the other or if one will outperform the other. My guess is that they will work virtually the same as one another and are built about the same. Can I do better than either or these or is this about as good as it gets for UHF antennas?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jim1348_
> *I am thinking of getting either the Channel Master 4228 8-Bay Bowtie UHF Antenna CM-4228 or Winegard 8-Bay UHF Prostar 1000 High Definition TV Antenna (PR8800) from http://www.solidsignal.com Either one is $ 48.99. They appear to be virtually identical, but I am just curious if one of them is actually built better than the other or if one will outperform the other. My guess is that they will work virtually the same as one another and are built about the same. Can I do better than either or these or is this about as good as it gets for UHF antennas?*



The 4228 is more consistent throughout the uhf range, esp. above channel 40 or so. See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


The 8800 is aluminum and is lighter while the 4228 is steel and about twice as heavy.


If I had to choose, I'd go with the 4228 as long as you don't plan to use a rotor. If you use a rotor, you might consider a large yagi/corner reflector such as the Antennasdirect xg91. It's much lighter with less wind load, with slightly better performance in the high uhf than the 8-bay while giving up slightly to the 8-bay say channel 40 and lower.


To get even higher performance for uhf, you'd either have to stack or go with a grouped channel antenna. AFAIK, these are only available as imports (Triax, Funke, Antiference) and can be had through http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/home/homepage.jsp 


Edit: I have seen a domestic source: http://wade-antenna.com/UHFantennas.htm go to the bottom of the page. I can't vouch for them though.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dapack5_
> *Is anyone having any problems receiving their VHF channels that use the 91XG, as their only antenna?*



If you haven't read my review yet, you should:
http://www.geocities.com/figbert/ant...irect91xg.html 


Especially the section labled "The VHF Surprise." I find that the 91XG performs below the VHF section of my former Winegard HD-8200P, but that I get practically identical reception for stations within 55 miles or so on hi-VHF. I get perfect reception of KTTC, channel 10, at about 30 miles, using the 91XG.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by rickmccamy_
> *I have done a search on trees but it seemed that there was no definitive answer on leaf interference with OTA signals.*



That's because there is no definitive answer on anything with OTA signals. Every situation is different.


Generally speaking, leaves will attenuate signals, especially UHF, and if they are being blown by the wind, this attenuation is usually too variable for the automatic gain control module in your tuner to compensate for.


Those who have done major tree surgery for reception have reported that pine trees don't seem to have nearly the same effect as deciduous, and once you clear local trees by about 10 feet, there's no additional improvement to be had.


Still, trees may or may not be your problem and removing trees may or may not improve things. Spring is a time of volatile weather, and different types of weather have different effects on reception.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dapack5_
> *thanks for your response to my question. i guess now i'll go ahead and order the 91XG and see how it works for me. i've read that a well made UHF antenna can pick up high vhf channels. our local CBS affiliate ( WINK) is on channel 11 and when they finally start their HD feeds they were assigned channel 9. is anyone having any problems receiving their VHF channels that use the 91XG, as their only antenna?
> 
> 
> i was referring to the 91XG as a XG91 and the price appears to be reasonable including the extra 5 bucks for the 3 day shipping.*



I have the 91XG and it does well with channel 11 analog here. I also have a DT 7 but no 9. Dt 7 40+ miles I cannot get a lock with the 91 XG. My solution was to build a dipole for channel 7. Works great and even over a small hill. Analog 8 it does poorly analog 10 over the same hill better but not great. All these channels are within a mile of each other. I'd give it a try and if no go then try this link and build a small dipole.

http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html 


Pix of my 91xg with dipole mounted above made with CPVC 1/2' pipe to enclose and make connections water tight. You can also see results.

Note I'm using a CM 7777 for combiner but DT 7 comes in with or without the amp at same signal strength. The 7777 only helps my DT 30 (CBS)which is very marginal and has drops without the amp. Luckily I get DT 58 also CBS much better.

http://jimc705.tripod.com/pixs/index.album?i=0#


----------



## rickmccamy




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *That's because there is no definitive answer on anything with OTA signals.
> 
> Those who have done major tree surgery for reception have reported that pine trees don't seem to have nearly the same effect as deciduous, and once you clear local trees by about 10 feet, there's no additional improvement to be had.
> *



Well, I got straight A's in aboroculture, and I have a suspect tree within 10', the surgery would be minor, one branch only. I'll report back.









And yes, of course it is a volunteer Walnut.


----------



## Jim1348

Where are some good places to buy diplexers, splitters, etc. on-line. I don't seem to have many places locally that carry them and when I do find one, they want an arm and a leg. I have to imagine that someone carries these on-line and doesn't go crazy on shipping charges.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jim1348_
> *Where are some good places to buy diplexers, splitters, etc. on-line. I don't seem to have many places locally that carry them and when I do find one, they want an arm and a leg. I have to imagine that someone carries these on-line and doesn't go crazy on shipping charges.*


 http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf 


or


http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm 


or

http://www.hometech.com/video/splitters.html#PI-DSU2


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jim1348_
> *I am thinking of getting either the Channel Master 4228 8-Bay Bowtie UHF Antenna CM-4228 or Winegard 8-Bay UHF Prostar 1000 High Definition TV Antenna (PR8800) from http://www.solidsignal.com Either one is $ 48.99. They appear to be virtually identical, but I am just curious if one of them is actually built better than the other or if one will outperform the other. My guess is that they will work virtually the same as one another and are built about the same. Can I do better than either or these or is this about as good as it gets for UHF antennas?*



Jim - check your PM. I did your topo analysis and all looks very good. The 4228 or any 8-bay would be overkill at 20 miles unless you're going in the attic or something that requires extra gain. I'd go with a 4-bay like the 4221/3021 instead or even the Rat Shack 15-2160 yagi since it is cheap, easy to find and easy to return.


----------



## omega3002

Hello, I am from Sterling Heights, MI, zip code is 48310, atennaweb.org:


* yellow - uhf WWJ-DT 62.1 CBS DETROIT MI 222° 9.6 44

* yellow - uhf WTVS-DT 56.1 PBS DETROIT MI 222° 9.6 43

* yellow - uhf WXYZ-DT 7.1 ABC DETROIT MI 243° 11.3 41

* yellow - uhf WKBD-DT 50.1 UPN DETROIT MI 254° 13.7 14

* yellow - uhf WDWB-DT 20.1 WB DETROIT MI 222° 9.6 21

* yellow - uhf WJBK-DT 2.1 FOX DETROIT MI 235° 10.3 58

* yellow - uhf WDIV-DT 4.1 NBC DETROIT MI 240° 8.9 45


I have a Sony Grand Wega IV which has a built in OTA HD tuner, I was wondering what type of indoor/outdoor antenna you would suggest to me from experience. I know that if I get an outdoor directional antenna I would need to point it towards southfield (SW between 222 and 254 degrees). I have a 2 story house, would I need an outdoor antenna or would an indoor antenna work just as well? I would rather get an outdoor antenna to avoid the hassle of indoor ones. I was thinking a Channel Master 4221 or a SS-1000 would probably work well. Do you think I could get by with putting a Channel Master 4221 in the attic? There are no hills or large buildings in the way of the towers. Thanks.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by omega3002_
> *I was thinking a Channel Master 4221 or a SS-1000 would probably work well. Do you think I could get by with putting a Channel Master 4221 in the attic?*



I'd recommend the 4221 in your situation - it should be able to get good signals from the range of directions you need to cover. A 4228 might be a tad too directional and make it hard for you to get by with a fixed install.


In the attic, though, all bets are off. Attics are mutlipath heavy areas, and there's no way to predict if it will work for you or not. You lose a lot of signal (at least 50%) just by putting your antenna indoors. And when you get snow on the roof, that snow can block a lot more as it becomes more dense (greater liquid state.) If at all possible, plant that puppy outdoors.


Avoid amplifiers. They won't help you at your distance.


----------



## TheTimm




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by omega3002_
> *Hello, I am from Sterling Heights, MI, zip code is 48310, atennaweb.org:
> 
> 
> I have a Sony Grand Wega IV which has a built in OTA HD tuner, I was wondering what type of indoor/outdoor antenna you would suggest to me from experience. I know that if I get an outdoor directional antenna I would need to point it towards southfield (SW between 222 and 254 degrees). I have a 2 story house, would I need an outdoor antenna or would an indoor antenna work just as well? I would rather get an outdoor antenna to avoid the hassle of indoor ones.*



When I was living in Royal Oak, I was indeed able to get all the channels with an indoor antenna (cheap rabbit ears -- in a basement, no less). But I don't recommend it if a rooftop antenna is an option: there were occasional dropouts and it could get quite frustrating. I'd just slap something big on the roof and be done with it. I'm currently at 9 and Van **** and using some big-ass UHF/VHF Channel Master deal (no idea what the model # is) that the Voom folks threw up there. All the locals come in rock solid. I put it on a rotor just for fun and am also able to get WADL (38-1, 38-2) out of Mt. Clemens (not that there's ever anything I want to watch), and WFUM (28-1, 28-2) a PBS station out of Flint.


If you haven't already, you might wanna ask for opinions in the Detroit local thread, too.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> 
> Attics are mutlipath heavy areas, and there's no way to predict if it will work for you or not. You lose a lot of signal (at least 50%) just by putting your antenna indoors.



This is pretty good advice except for the 50%. I've seen other estimates ranging from 30% to 90% and I wonder if any actual tests can be cited. Even if there are, so many variable factors come into play here -- not one of the least being how perpendicular to the incoming signal is your attic -- that I strongly believe in always ignoring these estimates and giving the attic a shot.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Bill Johnson_
> *I strongly believe in always ignoring these estimates and giving the attic a shot.*



I used to be in this camp, too. Except that this guy seems more willing than many to put up an outdoor antenna, and there's no denying that his odds are best if he does that. I simply stated "there is no way to predict" when installing attic antennas, a statement I stand by. No one can come out, look at your attic, and tell you whether it's going to work or not. Worse, conditions change over time.


I've advised many people to put their antennas outdoors. They try their attics and everything works - for a while. Then they start having problems and can't figure out why. Either snow starts blocking their signal, or the weather bends things at a different angle, and all of a sudden, their "perfect" reception is gone - and it never happens at a convenient time to fix it.


Your best chance of reliable, stable, all-the-time reception is outdoors, at or above roof level. Always. Maybe you can get lucky and do something less than the best.


The question you should always ask yourself with an attic antenna is, "Do I feel lucky?"


----------



## Bill Johnson

As an attic first advocate, I agree better more stable reception is the main goal, but "outside" has nothing else going for it against a lot of negatives that are pretty overwhelming. I list these minuses in no particular order except perhaps the first two. If none bothers you, by all means go to the roof or better still have a contractor do it.

1. Wife

2. Wind

3. Corrosion

4. Lightning/Need for grounding

5. Esthetics

6. HOA's

7. Longer Lead-in

8. Roof/house penetration

9. Roof Inaccessibility


----------



## Jim1348

I am thinking of buying some items from http://www.starkelectronic.com/ 


Is this a good company to deal with?


The items I want are:


-ASKA SP-31GDC 3-way Splitter


-ASKA SCS-6 Mini Diplexer


Are the ASKA components of good quality?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Bill Johnson_
> *As an attic first advocate, I agree better more stable reception is the main goal, but "outside" has nothing else going for it against a lot of negatives that are pretty overwhelming. I list these minuses in no particular order except perhaps the first two. If none bothers you, by all means go to the roof or better still have a contractor do it.
> 
> 1. Wife
> 
> 2. Wind
> 
> 3. Corrosion
> 
> 4. Lightning/Need for grounding
> 
> 5. Esthetics
> 
> 6. HOA's
> 
> 7. Longer Lead-in
> 
> 8. Roof/house penetration
> 
> 9. Roof Inaccessibility*



Outside only has one advantage that I can think of:


1. That's where the signal is.


----------



## quarque

Danger! Danger! Will Robinson! - have we forgotten:


10) Falling off the roof in the process


----------



## greywolf




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *Outside only has one advantage that I can think of:
> 
> 
> 1. That's where the signal is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



That made me think of the story of a guy who lost his contact lens in a parking lot at night by his car. He looked for it by a lamp post instead because the light was better.


----------



## AntAltMike

When I've hit a blind golf shot towards a green but don't find my golfball in plain sight, the first place I check is in the cup.


Willie Sutton never robbed any poor people.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jim1348_
> *I am thinking of buying some items from http://www.starkelectronic.com/
> 
> 
> Is this a good company to deal with?*



I've purchased items from them and always received what was promised, when it was promised, and had no billing issues. YMMV.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Bill Johnson_
> *1. Wife
> 
> 2. Wind
> 
> 3. Corrosion
> 
> 4. Lightning/Need for grounding
> 
> 5. Esthetics
> 
> 6. HOA's
> 
> 7. Longer Lead-in
> 
> 8. Roof/house penetration
> 
> 9. Roof Inaccessibility*



I've always wondered about #1, the WAF. Maybe it's because I have an understanding wife (witness my 54' tower) but I find that most people have much less approval of a signal that breaks up in the middle of their favorite program than they do about an item that 90% of the population never sees.


Wind shouldn't be a problem with a 4221. It has a very low profile and wind load factor.


Corrosion is a fact of life with outdoor installations. Still, at 10 miles, that puppy is going to have to have serious breakdowns before it's going to fail. It would probably serve 20 or more years without problems. Try and find a television (which is stored indoors) which lasts that long.


Proper grounding is easy. And once your antenna is grounded, it is one of the least popular places for a lightning strike to take place.


Aesthetics is, as they say, a matter of taste.


HOA's, according to the FCC, can go and perform unnatural acts with their restrictions.


If you use RG-6, and certainly at 10 miles, you could have a run of 200' and not come close to the losses associated with an attic space.


Can't help you with the roof problem. Silicone works well, but nothing is perfect. Even shingles fail.


All of which is to say that I think people spend far more time looking at their television than they do their house, and why would anyone trade a slightly better looking house for a picture that isn't stable? Do you really want to miss the last three minutes of Desperate Housewives (for example) because you don't want a small piece of metal on your roof?


Take a minute. Look at the "perfect" roof of yours. You'll find that it already has things poking out of it. What's one more?


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> 
> Outside only has one advantage that I can think of:
> 
> 1. That's where the signal is.



cp left off an important word in No. 1 and it should read "signal is strongest." My attic along with any expert on wave propagation would testify that tv signals can travel incredibly long distances, penetrate various roofing materials, and still deliver a strong rock solid signal to antennas and TV sets therein.


I believe "outside" is an over-rated factor. Nevertheless, sregener deftly handles most of my nine points and if I find out at shutdown I can't pick up high vhf digital at about 125 miles -- even though high vhf analog comes in solid -- then a big vhf monster will be on my roof. But these winds will still concern me.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Bill Johnson_
> *cp left off an important word in No. 1 and it should read "signal is strongest." My attic along with any expert on wave propagation would testify that tv signals can travel incredibly long distances, penetrate various roofing materials, and still deliver a strong rock solid signal to antennas and TV sets therein.
> 
> 
> I believe "outside" is an over-rated factor. Nevertheless, sregener deftly handles most of my nine points and if I find out at shutdown I can't pick up high vhf digital at about 125 miles -- even though high vhf analog comes in solid -- then a big vhf monster will be on my roof. But these winds will still concern me.*



Bill

In Churchill VA I'm surprised you need any antenna. Flat land mostly over water and within most station A prime coverage area. An attic antenna should be more then sufficient for you. Those of us in the fringe areas 60+ miles from transmitters in the hills need all the metal in the air we can get and can't afford the loss an attic mount. Basically if an attic mount will do it great! Personally with my attic (which is almost a crawl space) I'd much rather have it outside anyway.


All Serenger is saying is you want the most out of your antenna then it needs to be outside. I agree where you are located you have plenty of signal and mounting outside will proably be a waiste.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> _Originally posted byjimc705_
> 
> Bill
> 
> In Churchill VA I'm surprised you need any antenna. Flat land mostly over water and within most station A prime coverage area. An attic antenna should be more then sufficient for you. Those of us in the fringe areas 60+ miles from transmitters in the hills need all the metal in the air we can get and can't afford the loss an attic mount. Basically if an attic mount will do it great! Personally with my attic (which is almost a crawl space) I'd much rather have it outside anyway.
> 
> 
> All Serenger is saying is you want the most out of your antenna then it needs to be outside. I agree where you are located you have plenty of signal and mounting outside will proably be a waiste.



Hello Jim,

Actually there are 2 Churchills in Virginia & I'm in neither. In fact I'm not too too far from you near Churchville just off I-81 at the Staunton/Harrisonburg exits.


But now that you've mentioned my attic antenna, that's like waving red meat before a dog & just eggs on this HD 19.3 fanatic to talk about my setup. Here are the facts and I don't understand such unbelievable reception although sregener & others have mentioned knife-edge diffraction which I'm dubious of as being a factor for me:

1. DC digital stations are 125 miles from me and Richmond digital stations are 100 miles from me

2. I pick up virtually all of them rock solid 24/7 and have now for going on two yrs.

3. The Blue Ridge Mtns. many at 3000-4000 ft. are between me & the towers

4. I do it all using an attic rotarized CM 4228 with a CM dist. amp 3044, Sony HD200 and a Hit. 57S500.

5. Now admittedly my elevation is nearly 1800 ft. and my house is pretty perpendicular to the incoming signals, but for reasons of topo & distance, my success still doesn't compute.


And I'm glad I didn't listen to antennaweb.org and warnings about attics cutting down half or more of the signal. I say try it first!


----------



## quarque

Bill - could you post your nearest intersection & zip or lat/lon? I'd like to do a topo plot to DC and Richmond for fun.


Diffraction IS real. I'm not sure if that is how you are getting signal or not. It may be strong reflections off mountains. I just did a plot for a guy in Canada who is 96 miles from our towers and he gets good signal with a 4228 stack. He has no direct line-of-sight but an interesting series of mountains and valleys going in his direction. It must be the "pinball" effect.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by quarque_
> 
> Bill - could you post your nearest intersection & zip or lat/lon? I'd like to do a topo plot to DC and Richmond for fun.
> 
> 
> Diffraction IS real. I'm not sure if that is how you are getting signal or not. It may be strong reflections off mountains. I just did a plot for a guy in Canada who is 96 miles from our towers and he gets good signal with a 4228 stack. He has no direct line-of-sight but an interesting series of mountains and valleys going in his direction. It must be the "pinball" effect.



On my Va. topo map, I'm at 38.2 N. Lat. & 79.2 W. Lon. and on a plain old regular map I'm 2 mi. SW of Churchville.


There's a gap in the Blue Ridge at Afton Mtn. which I believe gives me kind of LOS to Richmond towers if my ruler doesn't lie; but almost 100 miles? Man!


And the DC signals are coming 125 mi. over some approx. 4000 ft. peaks and at an oblique angle to boot. Plus there's zero leaf effect for me in the summer so I've always been skeptical of diffraction coming into play. I even frequently pull in the 90 kW WETA-DT so something's at work I don't understand.


----------



## jimc705

Bill,

Sorry wrong Churchville! You are a lucky man with your reception. I have a nephew who's about to take the OTAHD plunge in Ranson WV. You give him strong hopes for getting DC and Balt. If you get Richmond then maybe he'll be able to get lucky. He's ordered a 4228 and already has a mast on his 2 story 100 year old colonial home. I'll be riding up there to help with his install in the near fuuture. Let you guys know how it works out when we're down.


----------



## airbrat

to place my antrenna?


When I moved into my house there was an antenna already in place. My only gripe is most of my local programming looks like crap! My second biggest gripe is my antenna is on the 2nd floor of my house and I can't just casually go up there whenever I feel like to make any adjustments. Its in a really awkward location.


Is there such thing as a signal meter that I can use to optimally place my antenna?


Fwiw, I have no idea what brand/model the antenna is. Can someone recommend a kick ass, proven outdoor antenna?


Thanks


----------



## CPanther95

Threads merged.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by airbrat_
> *Is there such thing as a signal meter that I can use to optimally place my antenna?
> 
> 
> Fwiw, I have no idea what brand/model the antenna is. Can someone recommend a kick ass, proven outdoor antenna?
> *



You don't say if you're trying to get digitals reception or analog. Usually, digital doesn't "look like crap."


There are dB meters that allow people to determine where the strongest signal is on your property. These are generally expensive.


Most digital receivers have "signal strength" meters that would tell you where best to place your antenna. They don't measure signal strength so much as signal quality, which, for digital, is the thing you really need.


Except for PBS, all of your digitals are UHF. Good antennas include the AntennasDirect 91XG and DB8, the Channel Master 3021, 3023, 4228 and 4221 and the Winegard PR-9032 and PR8800. With a little luck, you should be able to get the PBS digital with any of these antennas.


----------



## airbrat

Thanks! One last question. Where is the best place I can purchase a Channel Master and what is the difference in model numbers?


----------



## TheTimm




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by airbrat_
> *Thanks! One last question. Where is the best place I can purchase a Channel Master and what is the difference in model numbers?*



Try www.channelmaster.com for a description of the different models. They also have links to online retailers.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by airbrat_
> *Thanks! One last question. Where is the best place I can purchase a Channel Master and what is the difference in model numbers?*



I strongly recommend reading this web site in depth. It should answer any questions you have about different antennas: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html 


There is no one "best place." Lowe's carries some Channel Master antennas. Warren Electronics and Stark Electronics are two online retailers that I've done business with and had no problems with.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by airbrat_
> *Thanks! One last question. Where is the best place I can purchase a Channel Master and what is the difference in model numbers?*



If you looking for the 4228 then warrens has it on sale for 39.50 I believe.

I've bought of them before and offer fast shipping.

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4228.htm


----------



## terfmop




----------



## terfmop

Am I overly optimistic about OTA?

I am a voom subscriber, and using their standard OTA antenna (Winegard Sensor II) I am able to pick up my local in-town stations...NBC, CBS, and FOX, plus a PBS station ~60miles away. However, being a avid football fan, I must have an ABC affiliate to watch Monday Night Football this fall. I would really like to pick up WRTV in Indianapolis which is ~68miles away to the east of me @68*. I have two questions; 1) Am I being over optimistic about being able to pull this channel in? 2) How would I add another OTA antenna to my voom OTA antenna?


1) A little about my location. I live in a single story house, and I cannot spend $1000 to put in a 30' tower. I would like to place a tripod mounted mast on top of my roof...which will place the antenna @20-25' (top of house ~15' plus tripod and mast) above the ground. My neighbor across the street does have two tall trees in the general direction of Indianapolis but no major obstacles like hills or mountains. I was curious to see if I could get any signal whatsoever from this ABC station. I went to my voom OTA setup menu to gauge the signal quality, and then I took a simple, amplified indoor antenna up to my rooftop and pointed it towards that ABC station, surprisingly the 'meter' on my voom receiver registered 60-65. I was hopeful that a more sensitive and powerful antenna could do much better in the same spot. Is there any way of testing the strength of that station before getting everything up there? I visited anntenadirect.com and was reccomended the XG91; and from the solidsignal.com, I was told to get a CM 4228. From what I have described, am I being too optimistic about reliably picking up this ABC station? I would MUCH rather watch my football in HD as compared to a basic lifeline cable package that is my alternative.


2) Assuming I get an antenna up and working well, how do I add the new antenna and pre-amp to my existing voom OTA antenna? Currently, the RG6 cable comes from the voom OTA antenna to the switch at the back of the dish, then a RG6 cable is sent to each of my 3 receivers which enter the receiver through a diplexer on the back of the voom receiver.


Thanks,

Adam


----------



## airbrat

Nice! But will this model pick up VHF? It doesnt mention it on their website. I can't miss my UPN!


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by terfmop_
> *Am I overly optimistic about OTA?
> 
> I am a voom subscriber, and using their standard OTA antenna (Winegard Sensor II) I am able to pick up my local in-town stations...NBC, CBS, and FOX, plus a PBS station ~60miles away. However, being a avid football fan, I must have an ABC affiliate to watch Monday Night Football this fall. I would really like to pick up WRTV in Indianapolis which is ~68miles away to the east of me @68*. I have two questions; 1) Am I being over optimistic about being able to pull this channel in? 2) How would I add another OTA antenna to my voom OTA antenna?
> 
> 
> 1) A little about my location. I live in a single story house, and I cannot spend $1000 to put in a 30' tower. I would like to place a tripod mounted mast on top of my roof...which will place the antenna @20-25' (top of house ~15' plus tripod and mast) above the ground. My neighbor across the street does have two tall trees in the general direction of Indianapolis but no major obstacles like hills or mountains. I was curious to see if I could get any signal whatsoever from this ABC station. I went to my voom OTA setup menu to gauge the signal quality, and then I took a simple, amplified indoor antenna up to my rooftop and pointed it towards that ABC station, surprisingly the 'meter' on my voom receiver registered 60-65. I was hopeful that a more sensitive and powerful antenna could do much better in the same spot. Is there any way of testing the strength of that station before getting everything up there? I visited anntenadirect.com and was reccomended the XG91; and from the solidsignal.com, I was told to get a CM 4228. From what I have described, am I being too optimistic about reliably picking up this ABC station? I would MUCH rather watch my football in HD as compared to a basic lifeline cable package that is my alternative.
> 
> 
> 2) Assuming I get an antenna up and working well, how do I add the new antenna and pre-amp to my existing voom OTA antenna? Currently, the RG6 cable comes from the voom OTA antenna to the switch at the back of the dish, then a RG6 cable is sent to each of my 3 receivers which enter the receiver through a diplexer on the back of the voom receiver.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Adam*



Adam,


Since you didn't leave a zip code I'll give you best guess. Yes you should be able to get the ABC if there's no obstacles like large mountains or very tall buildings near by. A good UHF CM 4228 or antennas direct 91xg will go easily over 70 miles in the right conditions. You may have to ditch the diplexers for they may cause a problem. You can make a seperate run for the antenna RG6 if you must ditch the diplexers. I assume the voom antenna is the wing from Winegard? You can remove it all together and try using their existing RG6 first.


First I'd go to antennaweb.org and put in your address and see what stations they list for your location.


Second if they don't list a digital ABC don't get exicited they are very conservative. Get the call letters for the station you want and go to this link
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/tvq.html 

and see if you are in their coverage area. Use the green section only and submit. Look for the red digital for the station and click on alternate map to see their coverage area. If you within there coverage then you should be able to get them. Look for the lowest digital ERP (effective radiated power) for they may still be at low power till July 1.


Third take note if all the digitals you want are UHF or if some are VHF and if so what channel VHF.


Fourth you will need a very good UHF (more then likely) you'll going to need an antennas direct 91xg or Channel Master 4228. You may also need a rotor if you have stations in different directions. You may also need a CM 7777 amp.


Get back to the forum with your info from antenna web and the FCC and one of us should be able to give you more specfic help.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by airbrat_
> *Nice! But will this model pick up VHF? It doesnt mention it on their website. I can't miss my UPN!*



If you asking about the 4228 it will pick up some high band VHF. Need to know how far away VHF and what channel. If it's above channel 9 you probably got a good shot. Make sure they are at full power. You can call and ask the station engineer or got to the FCC sight. The station engineers I have found to be very helpful.


----------



## etcarroll




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *If you looking for the 4228 then warrens has it on sale for 39.50 I believe.
> http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4228.htm *



Great price, I paid $50 for an out-of-box one, and consider it money well spent.


----------



## terfmop




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *Adam,
> 
> 
> Since you didn't leave a zip code I'll give you best guess. Yes you should be able to get the ABC if there's no obstacles like large mountains or very tall buildings near by. A good UHF CM 4228 or antennas direct 91xg will go easily over 70 miles in the right conditions. You may have to ditch the diplexers for they may cause a problem. You can make a seperate run for the antenna RG6 if you must ditch the diplexers. I assume the voom antenna is the wing from Winegard? You can remove it all together and try using their existing RG6 first.
> 
> 
> First I'd go to antennaweb.org and put in your address and see what stations they list for your location.
> 
> 
> Second if they don't list a digital ABC don't get exicited they are very conservative. Get the call letters for the station you want and go to this link
> http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/tvq.html
> 
> and see if you are in their coverage area. Use the green section only and submit. Look for the red digital for the station and click on alternate map to see their coverage area. If you within there coverage then you should be able to get them. Look for the lowest digital ERP (effective radiated power) for they may still be at low power till July 1.
> 
> 
> Third take note if all the digitals you want are UHF or if some are VHF and if so what channel VHF.
> 
> 
> Fourth you will need a very good UHF (more then likely) you'll going to need an antennas direct 91xg or Channel Master 4228. You may also need a rotor if you have stations in different directions. You may also need a CM 7777 amp.
> 
> 
> Get back to the forum with your info from antenna web and the FCC and one of us should be able to give you more specfic help.*



Zip code is 47805, but when I use my address, I get more stations


A map image is attached, evidently Terre Hatue falls just outside the blue line ( I am on the northside of Terre Haute)


ERP 898 kW


Would it be possible though to keep that other OTA antenna, I don't really want to mess with a rotor, as one of my voom receivers will be hooked up to my Tivo. The station out of Indy is at 69* whereas my local stations are roughly all at 182*


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by airbrat_
> *Nice! But will this model pick up VHF? It doesnt mention it on their website. I can't miss my UPN!*



Well, this one is a mystery to me. KBEJ seems not to have a digital channel. None. Not an STA. Not an application. Nothing. Maybe someone else knows whats going on with this, but it looks like KBEJ-2 will disappear with the end of the analog era. I've *never* come across this in all my research of various markets and channels. I'm baffled.


No UHF antenna is going to do an acceptable job on lo-VHF channels, especially channel 2. You'll need a VHF/UHF combo antenna to get a decent signal. Knowing how far you are from the transmitters would help us give you the best models for your area, but be prepared, these antennas are usually very big.


----------



## airbrat

well according to antennaweb.org channel 2 (UPN) is 40 miles from me. As of right now I get a lot of snow and ghosting on that channel. Can you guys make a antenna recommendation for me?


* yellow - uhf KABB-DT 29.1 FOX SAN ANTONIO TX 149° 21.2 30

* yellow - uhf KVDA-DT 38.1 TEL SAN ANTONIO TX 147° 21.3 38

* yellow - uhf KRRT-DT 35.1 WB KERRVILLE TX 270° 28.6 32

* yellow - uhf KSAT-DT 12.1 ABC SAN ANTONIO TX 149° 22.9 48

* yellow - uhf WOAI-DT 4.1 NBC SAN ANTONIO TX 150° 22.7 58

* green - uhf KHCE-DT 16.1 TBN SAN ANTONIO TX 147° 21.7 16

* lt green - uhf KPXL-DT 26 PAX UVALDE TX Awaiting FCC Permit 269° 38.0 26

* red - vhf KLRN-DT 9.1 PBS SAN ANTONIO TX 161° 17.1 8

* red - uhf KWEX-DT 41.1 UNI SAN ANTONIO TX 147° 21.4 39
** red - vhf KBEJ-DT 2 UPN FREDERICKSBURG TX 11-05 338° 40.8 2*

* red - uhf KENS-DT 5.1 CBS SAN ANTONIO TX 150° 22.7 55


----------



## Rack




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by airbrat_
> ** red - vhf KBEJ-DT 2 UPN FREDERICKSBURG TX 11-05 338° 40.8 2*


 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hlight=lowband


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by airbrat_
> *well according to antennaweb.org channel 2 (UPN) is 40 miles from me.*



I had a Winegard HD-7084P on my roof for a while, and got very good reception of VHF signals for 50 miles or so. (After that, the picture became more fuzzy and not as clear, but I got usable signals from 110 miles away.) You may need to add a preamplifier to the mix.


----------



## airbrat

I thought preamps was a bad thing?


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by airbrat_
> 
> I thought preamps was a bad thing?



They can be bad in that all they do is help, in layman's terms, the signal that hits your antenna get to your TV without losing strength. And therein is the badness: If it's a strong incoming signal, I'm told a preamp can keep it too strong and in electricity terms overload the circuit and you'll not get anything, as I believe happened to me.


Another thing, I'm told that a preamp will not make an incoming weak signal stronger. All of its work is done the moment the signal leaves the antenna enroute to your TV.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by terfmop_
> *
> 
> Would it be possible though to keep that other OTA antenna, I don't really want to mess with a rotor, as one of my voom receivers will be hooked up to my Tivo. The station out of Indy is at 69* whereas my local stations are roughly all at 182**



Yes you can keep the exisiting antenna but you'll need a seperate coax run for the new antenna and an A/B switch for each receiver you wish to have the second antenna displayed. Radio Shack has both manual and IR remote A/B switches. The IR is about $35 I believe but sure beats getting up to change antennas manually. If you going to use seldomly then a $5 manual will do. This way you can keep the TIVO on the Voom antenna while you watch the other antenna from a different receiver. You can then leave the diplexer on the Voom receivers and if you need to add a preamp, the Voom receiver will supply the DC needed to the amp. Be sure the A/B switch passes DC I believe they all do.


As for reception of ABC you are out of their primary service area but barely. They are at channel 25 low for UHF with relatively high power. It's going to be tuff and you may or may not get it. The CM 4228 is very good at this frequency and I personally did a head to head comparison with the 91XG and the Cm 4228. The 4228 and 91xg are about equal at 25. The 91xg is a little less prone to multipath from the sides. My 91XG picks up channel 27 here which is at low power 5.38KW and 70 miles out reliably. I too am outside their coverage area and not using an amp. You must decide if it's worth a shot. The 4228 presently is $39.50 from Warrens mentioned earlier in forum. Around $50 with shipping. They are in IN I believe so you may be close enough to pick up. The Antennas Direct is less then $100 with shipping but you can return it for a refund. The only loss then of course is shipping. I believe with either you get more stations.


You said if you put in your actual address antennaweb showed more stations. This is true. They are address sensitive. My neighbor who is higher then me but only about 1/4 mile away gets more channels as per antennaweb. Yes they are correct he does but he's on top of the hill and I'm halfway up. They also show me getting but 2 DTV channels and I get 16 DTV's relably. 6 of these I'm out of there coverage area. Yes some are on the other side of the hill and had to go with the 91XG to get them. The 4228 also gets them equally up to about channel 34 then the 91xg does a sligtly better job to about the mid 50's when they start equally out again. Above 60 the 4228 is superior but I only have 2 channels that high both analog. Shortly there be no channels in that range anyway. The 4228 seems to be a smidget better at channel 30 ,my weakest station, at maintaining a lock but again it's a smidget.


If I were you I go with the CM and see if you can get it. If you can't then you can always replace the wing with the 4228 and increase the other digital signals. If you can't get ABC with the 4228 then you're not going to with any antenna. I'd check with your locals and see what they got and their results. Every case is different and even across the street may be different. I believe this would be my course of action. I can't believe ABC doesn't have a digital somewhere close enough that the 4228 won't get it.


You may also call the station enigineers for I have found them to be helpful in most cases. They may be able to tell you what success you may have with the 4228. Some are very much into digital reception and love hearing from us what is working and what isn't.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Bill Johnson_
> *They can be bad in that all they do is help, in layman's terms, the signal that hits your antenna get to your TV without losing strength.
> 
> 
> Another thing, I'm told that a preamp will not make an incoming weak signal stronger. All of its work is done the moment the signal leaves the antenna enroute to your TV.*



This used to be the accepted wisdom. No longer. Read here:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html 


The important section: "Actually there is a reason to think the external amplifier is quieter than the receiver. Long ago designers made an effort to make the TV's first amplifier stage very quiet. But now 90% of homes use cable or satellite boxes (strong sources) and most of the rest are rural homes using antennas that have mast-mounted amplifiers. So the TV's noise is rarely a factor. Many TV makers no longer put any effort into making their sets quiet."


I'd follow his advice and make sure you can return the preamp. For me, it's done nothing but good things, but my closest stations are about 30 miles away. Once you get inside 20 miles, they generally overload. For airbrat's location, he's right on the edge of where they might do more harm than good for the local stuff.


Preamplifiers aren't bad. They just aren't magic. Some people think "I add a preamplifier, and my reception is automatically a lot better." Not always so. Especially if multipath is an issue (looks like ghosting on analog channels.)


----------



## jimc705




> _Originally posted by sregener_
> 
> *Well, this one is a mystery to me. KBEJ seems not to have a digital channel. None.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like you are correct. I have found a few stations one right here in Morristown 61 that have no digital channel. Very weird for everyone is suppose to be digital by 2008. They must have special permission to broadcast analog until the cut off. I noticed most are extremely small stations independent stations which may not be able to come up with the money to convert.
> 
> 
> I know Knoxville has put there UPN on a sub channel with CBS which may be the case here. Instead of building a seperate transmitter. He may want to check with his digital stations to see if one of them has UPN as the sub channel. Of course that means no HD UPN untill they decide to build a sperate transmitter or wait for MPEG 4 approval from the FCC.*


----------



## terfmop

For those of you like me that are curious about combining antennas, I came across this informative site.... http://www.tvantenna.com/support/tut...combining.html


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by terfmop_
> *For those of you like me that are curious about combining antennas, I came across this informative site.... http://www.tvantenna.com/support/tut...combining.html *



I recall criticizing that site in a previous thread here a couple of years ago.


In particular, the advice that the coax lengths be exactly the same is simply wrong. That advice only applies to stacked antennas that are pointed at the same transmitter whose signals are deliberately being added to one another.


The caveat that Jointennas cannot be used to combine adjacent channels is insufficient for UHF application. Channel Master actually recommends not using them to integrate any UHF channel withing 5 channels of another desired channel. I can usually get away with using them to combine UHF channels within three channels of each other because I have a spectrum analyzer and can fine tune them to minimize conflicts.


The recommendation that antennas in the same horizontal plane due to the constraints of attic height be at least one wavelength apart is idealistic but relatively unimportant if the antennas are at right or sharply oblique angles to one another.


The recommendation that antennas mounted on the same mast be one half wavelength apart is good advice, but I can tell you that in most instances, you can get away with 1/4 wavelength, which is about 4-1/2 feet for channel 2.


The remarks about using filters to reduce or eliminate rear undesired signals are incomprehensible and therefore cannot be further commented upon.


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Bill Johnson_
> *On my Va. topo map, I'm at 38.2 N. Lat. & 79.2 W. Lon. and on a plain old regular map I'm 2 mi. SW of Churchville.
> 
> 
> There's a gap in the Blue Ridge at Afton Mtn. which I believe gives me kind of LOS to Richmond towers if my ruler doesn't lie; but almost 100 miles? Man!
> 
> 
> And the DC signals are coming 125 mi. over some approx. 4000 ft. peaks and at an oblique angle to boot. Plus there's zero leaf effect for me in the summer so I've always been skeptical of diffraction coming into play. I even frequently pull in the 90 kW WETA-DT so something's at work I don't understand.*



Bill - I see the notch near Afton and your LOS is close. So that might explain Richmond. But DC has to go over about 3400 feet of mountain. I think it has to be refraction that is working there. That is about the only thing that would be steady and reliable at that distance.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *Very weird for everyone is suppose to be digital by 2008. They must have special permission to broadcast analog until the cut off. I noticed most are extremely small stations independent stations which may not be able to come up with the money to convert.*



Looking at it a little closer, is appears that KBEJ went on the air after January 1st, 1998. They're running full power (100kw) on analog, so I'm sure they don't want to lose their license. I don't know when the cutoff was for granting stations a digital transition station, but it seems they're close to the one I remember.


Translators have not yet been permitted to select a new digital frequency, as they have to wait for the "primary" stations to select their permanent frequencies. Only then can it be determined what frequencies they can occupy without interfering.


----------



## wildwillie6




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by quarque_
> *Bill - I see the notch near Afton and your LOS is close. So that might explain Richmond. But DC has to go over about 3400 feet of mountain. I think it has to be refraction that is working there. That is about the only thing that would be steady and reliable at that distance.*



Bill Johnson and I are both in the same general neck of the woods, and both puzzled at some of the stations we can bring in but -- because of the distance, etc. -- shouldn't be able to. Maybe from our experience someone can figure out why we do so well, with the thought of helping others in the future. In my case, I'm at Bridgewater, Va., 38.3841N 79.0322W, elevation 1192. With a ChannelMaster 4248 and 7777 preamp mounted on a two-story mast I get WRLH-Richmond (FOX-35) solidly, all the time. Looking on the map at Pasture Fence Mountain and Rockfish Gap, I don't think I can have a line of sight.


(Closer to home, I also get WUSA's analog translator just fine, and there's a definite hill between here and there. Don't think a line of sight is possible, but there it is, strong as can be on UHF 18. (Southern Rockingham, W18AA [18] 0.51 0.00 N H 38°23'34"N 78°46'13"W TX-LIC WUSA (9 CBS)).


willie


----------



## bobchase

sregener,

KBEJ applied for their CP after the DTV assignment window closed. They filed for reconsideration but were denied twice. So they were left out of the original table of allocations.

They have since filed for Ch63-DT in the 1st round of DTV channel elections.

The FCC has not figured out what to do with them because they literally fell through a crack in the process. At one point, new, low-power DTV stations were going to have precedence for a DTV allocation over them, even though they were a full-power broadcaster. In fact every other class of service had precedence over them over them (LP analog, Class-A, etc.).

Additionally, there have been legal problems with the ownership.


some interesting reading for you
home.swbell.net/pjdyer/fred-2.htm 


Bob Chase


----------



## dapack5

i am curious as to the major differences between the cm 7775 and 7777 besides the vhf db gain is lower on the 7775 than on the 7777. i believe it's time to ditch the r/s pre amp that i have that's adjustable from 15db to (supposedly ) 30db of gain and it also has a noise rating of 4.5 db. i am using an old winegard UHF only antenna and can receive channel 29 from west palm beach which is approximately 83 miles to the east of me. i can receive other channels digitals from that area too but not as strong as this one. if anyone in the Ft Myers/Lehigh Acres area of S.Florida is having success with hdtv besides our locals,could you tell what equipment you are using? i.e. antenna,preamp,stb,height of antenna and so on?


thanks

here's what i'm using


samsung sir-t451 stb

winegard U630 antenna

25' up

radio shack preamp with fm trap 15db to ?

sony 46" hdtv


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by quarque_
> 
> Bill - I see the notch near Afton and your LOS is close. So that might explain Richmond. But DC has to go over about 3400 feet of mountain. I think it has to be refraction that is working there. That is about the only thing that would be steady and reliable at that distance.



You may be correct but it is weird. Whether it's refraction or diffraction, it's still the bending of signals through the medium of air and I would think that would make them much less steady and reliable than say if you're 30 miles away with direct LOS. But they're coming to me rock solid 24/7 at a distance of 125 miles so I'm just happy as can be.


----------



## Jim1348

Can digital television receivers be overloaded very easily? I have two DISH 811 receivers connected to a ChannelMaster 4228 8-bay antenna in a second story attic. I am 20 miles from the transmitters. Most OTA channels came in fine without an amplifier, but I added a 24 dB amplifier to improve things. It did improve most channels, except one. Ironically, I then added a variable attenuator and when I attenuated that channel it came in. So now I am wondering if I am experiencing overload. May I need a smaller amplifier.


----------



## Jim1348

The more that I read about this the more that I think that I am experiencing multipath distortion. Is there any way to tell for sure? I use two DISH 811 receivers and an STB from Wal-Mart on a third set.


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Bill Johnson_
> *You may be correct but it is weird. Whether it's refraction or diffraction, it's still the bending of signals through the medium of air and I would think that would make them much less steady and reliable than say if you're 30 miles away with direct LOS. But they're coming to me rock solid 24/7 at a distance of 125 miles so I'm just happy as can be.*



Sorry, I meant to say 'diffraction' since 'refraction' implies bending due to a change of medium or a change in the density of the medium. I doubt it could be refaction and be so reliable. But diffraction off the edge of that mountain ridge would be quite steady. We see that effect all the time around my area because of all the hills. The other thing we've seen going on over long distances is reflection off of mountains. We have a person in Canada who is 96 miles due north of Seattle and gets our locals very reliably. But I can see on a topo plot to his location that he has no direct LOS to our towers, just lots of valleys heading in his direction more or less. So his signal might be travelling like a pinball bouncing off various mountains along the way. I did not see any possibility for that in your case with DC.


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jim1348_
> *Can digital television receivers be overloaded very easily? I have two DISH 811 receivers connected to a ChannelMaster 4228 8-bay antenna in a second story attic. I am 20 miles from the transmitters. Most OTA channels came in fine without an amplifier, but I added a 24 dB amplifier to improve things. It did improve most channels, except one. Ironically, I then added a variable attenuator and when I attenuated that channel it came in. So now I am wondering if I am experiencing overload. May I need a smaller amplifier.*



Yes, you can overload your receiver. The general consensus is that amplifiers are not usually helpful below 30 miles. But being in an attic is a different situation and might benefit from an amplifier. So the question is why did you need to "improve things"? Were you getting audio and/or video dropouts etc? If not, there would be no reason to add anything to your basic antenna. The attenuator is in effect, lowering your amplifier gain. Changing to a lower gain (and lower noise) amplifier might be the best solution if you *really* do need an amplifier. How long is your cable run?


----------



## dapack5

i have noticed today that i am getting 2 channels trying to come in on one! i.e. 30 is trying to interfere 29 and 36 with 34. could this be a result of a poor antenna amp? i am using the r/s model 15-2507 amplifier and both the stations that i am trying to receive are 180 degrees from the ones that are causing the interference. is this something that if i purchased the cm-7775 or 7777 that i could possibly correct?


thanks


i am also using a winegard UHF only- long range antenna U-630 model


----------



## pascal D

Hi


I am new to over the air digital TV. I have an eyeTV connected to my mac. I use a small indoor RadioShack HDTV antenna. Maybe someone can answer this for me: if CBS, PBS, FOX, and ABC all share the same tower, then I would expect problems such as alignment, obstacles along the line of sight, etc are the same for all. If I get one of them strong and not the others, does that necessarily imply that the problem is not on my end? If the problem is on their end, what is the problem?


thanks for any help.

Pascal


----------



## jmccurrytech

I have channels overloading other channels even without an amp. Im within 10 miles from 4 analog channels and they pop up on other channels from time to time. Can get quite annoying!


----------



## CPanther95

Post #1844 merged in.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by pascal D_
> 
> ...if CBS, PBS, FOX, and ABC all share the same tower, then I would expect problems such as alignment, obstacles along the line of sight, etc are the same for all. If I get one of them strong and not the others, does that necessarily imply that the problem is not on my end? If the problem is on their end, what is the problem?



There could be a variety of problems:

1. Stations transmitting at different power levels even tho on same tower.


2. Stations having different patterns in sending out their signals.


3. Stations having transmitters at different heights on the tower. (A few feet seems inconsequential, but it can make a big difference.)


4. Receiving antennas are notorious for being able to pull in wave lengths of some frequencies and being totally out to lunch on others.


5. Who knows what else because many say getting good OTA reception is a crap shoot with no rhyme or reason.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Bill Johnson_
> *There could be a variety of problems:
> 
> 1. Stations transmitting at different power levels even tho on same tower.
> 
> 
> 2. Stations having different patterns in sending out their signals.
> 
> 
> 3. Stations having transmitters at different heights on the tower. (A few feet seems inconsequential, but it can make a big difference.)
> 
> 
> 4. Receiving antennas are notorious for being able to pull in wave lengths of some frequencies and being totally out to lunch on others.
> 
> 
> 5. Who knows what else because many say getting good OTA reception is a crap shoot with no rhyme or reason.*



Don't forget co-channel interference from analogs in adjacent markets. It's one of the biggest problems right now with reception in the fringe and near-fringe IMO.


Pascal,

I'm not sure where "Chester" is, but if you'll give your distance from those stations and the market you're in it can help to be able to advise you. You probably need a better antenna.


----------



## fuzzman99

I live about 35-45 miles from most of the stations (Lexington, KY) I am trying to receive, in between some palisades and a hill. My HD tuner is built-in to my Hitachi 57S715. The antenna is mounted in the attic for aesthetic reasons and I doubt I will be able to move it outside.


Originally I had the largest available UHF only antenna from Radio Shack that I bought 7 years ago when I had satellite TV. I tried using this antenna with a RS 15-2507 30dB amplifier and was only able to get the local KET and ABC feeds in HD. After I finally figured out that I needed a VHF antenna to get the local CBS feeds I bought a CM3016 and CM3041DSB amplifier from Lowes in desperation to see the UK games in the NCAA tournament . With this configuration I was getting signal strengths of ABC - 71%, CBS - 60%, KET - 60%. These values results in a audio dropouts and occasional pixelation on the CBS feed, the ABC feed seems to be okay, and I haven't watched the KET feed enough to comment on its quality. I then tried a larger CM3018 (this is the largest antenna I can get in my attic) and it didn't seem to improve the signal by more than a couple of points. I also tried the RS amplifier instead of the CM and it only added a point or two as well.


My question is...what other antenna/amplifier configurations should I consider or am I just at my limits for my environment? Remember this is an attic mount situation. I am hesitant to order anything that can't be returned based on the above experiences.


Would the CM7777 provide a significant improvement over the CM3041DSB or the RS amplifier?


Would going to a CM4228 and a separate VHF only antenna like the Winegard HD4053P or PR5030 along with a CM7777 provide any significant improvement?


Also, assuming the answer to the above questions are no and I stay with one of my current options is there anything other than overall signal strength that I should consider in whether to keep the 3018 over the 3016 and the RS amp over the CM amp?


----------



## digiblur

I have the same exact TV and love it... if you have cable and your provider has HD channels you might try doing a scan with the cable on ANT A. I was suprised when my TV started picking up all kinds of digital channels on my basic cable(around $12 a month). This is the built in QAM tuner in the TV. All of the locals in HD were there including a few other misc digital channels.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by fuzzman99_
> *I live about 35-45 miles from most of the stations (Lexington, KY) I am trying to receive, in between some palisades and a hill. My HD tuner is built-in to my Hitachi 57S715. The antenna is mounted in the attic for aesthetic reasons and I doubt I will be able to move it outside.
> 
> 
> Originally I had the largest available UHF only antenna from Radio Shack that I bought 7 years ago when I had satellite TV. I tried using this antenna with a RS 15-2507 30dB amplifier and was only able to get the local KET and ABC feeds in HD. After I finally figured out that I needed a VHF antenna to get the local CBS feeds I bought a CM3016 and CM3041DSB amplifier from Lowes in desperation to see the UK games in the NCAA tournament . With this configuration I was getting signal strengths of ABC - 71%, CBS - 60%, KET - 60%. These values results in a audio dropouts and occasional pixelation on the CBS feed, the ABC feed seems to be okay, and I haven't watched the KET feed enough to comment on its quality. I then tried a larger CM3018 (this is the largest antenna I can get in my attic) and it didn't seem to improve the signal by more than a couple of points. I also tried the RS amplifier instead of the CM and it only added a point or two as well.
> 
> 
> My question is...what other antenna/amplifier configurations should I consider or am I just at my limits for my environment? Remember this is an attic mount situation. I am hesitant to order anything that can't be returned based on the above experiences.
> 
> 
> Would the CM7777 provide a significant improvement over the CM3041DSB or the RS amplifier?
> 
> 
> Would going to a CM4228 and a separate VHF only antenna like the Winegard HD4053P or PR5030 along with a CM7777 provide any significant improvement?
> 
> 
> Also, assuming the answer to the above questions are no and I stay with one of my current options is there anything other than overall signal strength that I should consider in whether to keep the 3018 over the 3016 and the RS amp over the CM amp?*



Put an Antennasdirect XG91 outside on a rotor with a Winegard PR 5030 or Antennacraft 3BG17 or 22 mounted about 60 inches underneath and pointed towards Lexington. Use the CM 7777 which will allow you to diplex them as well. You'll then have all the Lex. channels and probably all the Louisville channels (all UHF, via the rotor) as well. You could do the same in the attic but outside would be my choice.


Forgot about WB 8 from Louisville but I think it's still low power anyway and I don't think they do HD.


----------



## pascal D

Thank you for the replies. The Chester in question is Chester, VA 23831. I checked on antenna.org and I should get decent reception - I just don't, or at least, it is not consistently good. I have an antenna in my attic and get OK reception with my analog system. I would like to migrate to DTV, but bad reception on DTV is worse than bad reception on analog TV. I wonder if broadcaster are still tweaking their system and things will get better when the migration is over; or whether my only option will be to subscribe to cable or satellite.



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *Don't forget co-channel interference from analogs in adjacent markets. It's one of the biggest problems right now with reception in the fringe and near-fringe IMO.
> 
> 
> Pascal,
> 
> I'm not sure where "Chester" is, but if you'll give your distance from those stations and the market you're in it can help to be able to advise you. You probably need a better antenna.*


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by pascal D_
> *Thank you for the replies. The Chester in question is Chester, VA 23831. I checked on antenna.org and I should get decent reception - I just don't, or at least, it is not consistently good. I have an antenna in my attic and get OK reception with my analog system. I would like to migrate to DTV, but bad reception on DTV is worse than bad reception on analog TV. I wonder if broadcaster are still tweaking their system and things will get better when the migration is over; or whether my only option will be to subscribe to cable or satellite.*



All the digitals from Richmond are UHF. A CM 4221 in your attic should do the trick at around 15 miles. You shouldn't need a preamp. If you were using a VHF or combo VHF/UHF antenna before for analog it may not have an adequate UHF section for your needs now,

especially in the attic. Go to http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp and punch in your coordinates for precise compass bearing to the towers. A good site for determination of latitude/longitude is http://terraserver.microsoft.com/. 


I don't know much about the Eye TV you're using, although it seems pretty cool from a review I saw when I googled it. The tuner section could be subpar, though. I'd try the antenna first. It should be less than 30 bucks.


----------



## pascal D

I am trying the Amplified UHF/VHF HDTV ANtenna 15-1880 on the second floor and the VHF/UHF amplified Antenna 15-1847A in the attic, both from RadioShack. I get poor reception on both. I hate going through antennas one after the other.


The EyeTv is awesome, when the reception is good.



> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *All the digitals from Richmond are UHF. A CM 4221 in your attic should do the trick at around 15 miles. You shouldn't need a preamp. If you were using a VHF or combo VHF/UHF antenna before for analog it may not have an adequate UHF section for your needs now,
> 
> especially in the attic. Go to and punch in your coordinates for precise compass bearing to the towers. A good site for determination of latitude/longitude is
> 
> 
> I don't know much about the Eye TV you're using, although it seems pretty cool from a review I saw when I googled it. The tuner section could be subpar, though. I'd try the antenna first. It should be less than 30 bucks.*


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by pascal D_
> *I am trying the Amplified UHF/VHF HDTV ANtenna 15-1880 on the second floor and the VHF/UHF amplified Antenna 15-1847A in the attic, both from RadioShack. I get poor reception on both. I hate going through antennas one after the other.*



First off, at 11 miles, you should be skipping anything that says "amplified" on it. That's not going to work very well for you.


If it was me, I'd try a Zenith Silver Sensor without any amplifier and see what I get. If things are still bad, you're probably going to have to go with an outdoor-style antenna (which you may be able to fit in your attic) like the Channel Master 4221.


----------



## jimc705

Since you're in Chester I used to live in Richmond. I know you have some rolling hills a lots of tree foilage in some areas. Are you in one of those holes in southside? If you are the silver sensor probably won't do the job. The 4221 in the attic (if you can direct it probably). Outside will be a definite plus and if you in a hole as high as possible.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *Since you're in Chester I used to live in Richmond. I know you have some rolling hills a lots of tree foilage in some areas. Are you in one of those holes in southside? If you are the silver sensor probably won't do the job. The 4221 in the attic (if you can direct it probably). Outside will be a definite plus and if you in a hole as high as possible.*



Hey Jim,

Did you check out the Y10 7-13 stack I put up? I'm finally getting WKYT DT-13 from Lexington pretty consistently after much sweat and tears. Still tweaking on things, though. I have a barely used Funke psp 1922 (vhf 7-13) if you're interested. I'll be coming through Morristown Thursday on the way to Dollywood.

Charles


----------



## Gritz

I'm completely new to this as you can probably tell from the Subject. I picked up a Syntax Olevia 26" at RcWilleys in Boise, a MyHD MDP-130 for my computer online, and a HD antenna at Wa-mart. I hooked it all together and everything worked great right out of the box, but I could not get 10,13 and 28 no matter where I moved the small HD antenna, within the confines of the room that my setup is located in. Already having an antenna up in attic for the local channels but hardly being used (we have DirecTV) I decided to make the connection to this antenna, and lo and behold they all work ... and with increased signal strength. Now ... my perception was that you needed the small footprint antenna for HD, and the large antenna for analog ...similar the FM/AM radio. So .... am I right in assuming that the bigger the antenna, the better? The one thing I did notice though, is that the small antenna is very sensitive to pointing.


----------



## Chuck_McDevitt

Bigger is always better for reception (but may be harder to set up, if overly directional).

A "small" HD antenna is probably UHF only, so it would be expected that 10 and 13 wouldn't come in, as they are VHF.


Note that digital TV and analog TV are broadcast on the same range of channels.

An Antenna that is good for one is good for the other.


----------



## jimc705

This is for those of you who often wondered which antenna is better. The CM 4228 or Antennas Direct 91XG. Note this is a single case and may not be the case in your situtation and by no means scientific evalulation.


My local digitals come from 2 DMA's Tri cities (Johnson City, Bristol, Greenville, and Kingsport) and Knoxville TN. I had a 91XG mounted about 15 feet of the ground. The 91 XG did a great job on all the signals from the tri cities and beyond (Norton and Grundy VA.) around 60 to 70 air miles signal in the 90 + range. Pretty much straight shot up the valley a few rolling hills to get over. After adding a CM 7777 most went to 95 to 99 signal. All networks and PBS very reliable with extremely rare drop.


My Knoxvilles were the tough dogs at only 40 + miles. I'm on the east side of a small hill. I'm about 1/3 down from the top. Knoxville of course was over the top of this hill west from me. The hill from here goes up rapidly about 100 yards to top. My antennas do not clear this hill so I do tilt them upward slightly towards horizon.


The 91 XG after some searching for a good location. I finally found a spot where I could get all the Knoxvilles with exception of PAX from Jellico. This is why the antenna is at the 15 foot level. Higher I loose CBS and PBS but did get the others a tad stronger. ABC ,NBC, Fox, WB all around the same signal level 87 to 90. Even here I could barely maintain a lock on CBS at 83 to 84 and PBS right at 85 min. strength level allowing for bad weather lock. I added the CM 7777. To my surprise towards Knoxville not much help. My signal to noise is very high 75:25 so this may be why the amp did not help much. CBS may have jumped to 84 more often but I usually would not be able to watch CBS during daytime hours. The SNR had no change with the amp. Of course during a game it would never work and had to turn torward Tri Cities for CBS reliable signal. Naturally the wife wants Knoxvilles and not VA news which the tri cities do a lot of and ignore us here in Morristown. I am outside their coverage area in fairness to them.


Well fairly happy with results all my networks reliable if not from one direction then the other. I figured I can live with it.


My mother in WV needed a new antenna where she moved to and after some playing with a Wing from Winegard I got her 2 digitals Fox and NBC. She's has mountains all around her and it's very tough. I decided to get a 4228 so I can give it a head to head with my 91xg and also get her a descent UHF for her OTA digitals. When Warrens put it on sale I ordered it.


I took the signal level before pulling down the 91XG and wrote them down. Then put up the 4228 in the exact spot the 91XG was within minutes of each other. Results I didn't expect. Below Knoxville results. The CM 7777 was constantly hooked up to both antennas for these readings.


channel signal 4228 signal 91XG


17 *83 to 85 85 to 87 * cannot watch too many drops

23 *40 to 81 * 50 to 70 * No Lock with either antenna

26 87 to 88 88 to 89

30 84 to86 84 to 86 This is my problem child see notes

31 87 to 88 88 to 90

34 86 to 87 87 to 89

41 97 (back side) no backside reception lock.

48 88 to 90 88 to 89

50 off air ? 86 to 88 * ocassionally would not lock

61 excellent very good - this is an anlog only station no digitals here in this channel range. Tower 5 miles max low power station.


68 very good good to very good - again analog only no meter for signal strength.


As you can see not much difference. The 4228 seem to be better at the high end over the 91xg. The 91xg seem better at the low end channel 17 and 26 and even through the mid 30's. The 4228 did a hair better on 41,48, digitals 61 and 68 analog channels. The 4228 did a better job on all analog UHF channels. It should be the opposite since the 91xg is a yagi and should be superior on the high channels. Channel 50 readings were from before the 91XG was taken down. They have been off the air for about a week now and have no 4228 readings yet.


With that out of way the SNR had no significant change.


Channel 17 had drop outs to the point you could not watch 17 on the 4228. The 91 XG would maintain a good lock on this channel with a very rare drop.


Channel 30 CBS my problem child! Signal strength and SNR readings are the same. The 4228 however maintains a lock much better then the 91XG. I can now watch CBS from Knoxville during the day with very few drops and at night with no drops. The 91xg was sometimes great no drops and sometimes unwatchable during daylight hours.


Channel 30 and 34 signal dropped a hair with the 4228 but I still have plenty of signal for a lock on those channels.


I have left the 4228 up for a week now to be sure this wasn't a freak. It seems to be steady and gets stronger signals when it rains for some reason. (The 91XG did this also).


One fact you may want to note. The 4228 allowed me to get channel 41 when I was pointing about 170 degrees in the wrong direction. The 91 XG must have a very high front to back ratio and didn't even nudge the meter when it was pointed that direction. Channel 41 is only 17 miles at full power so this may explain why the 4228 received from the rear. The good VHF reception must be from the screen for it's backside VHF is very good.


As for my strong signals from the tri cities.


All these where pretty much equal. A tick or 2 better with the 91xg were channels 28 ,32, 38, equal were 27, and 48. Notably better with the 4228 was 58 about 3 ticks better. The 4228 on these strong signals was less directional then the 91XG. I could find a spot were I got all these without moving the antenna. The 91XG would never pick all these up in one position and required a bump of about 5 to 10 degrees either way.


Next I'll be moving the 4228 to the tri pod on the roof about 10 feet higher.

The 91XG would only get 26 and 50 at that height toward Knoxville. All the tri city stations are a smidget stronger. Also at that height I could get an occasional lock on channel 25 and 56 Ashville NC. over the mountains and south. I"ll let you know how the 4228 does when I try it later.


Please note this was a head to head here at my location. Your results could be different. Equipment used for readings were the Motorola DSR 550 Voom receiver. RG 6 run 35 feet with a CM 7777 amp installed. This signal is not split and is a straight run to the receiver with only the amp and power supply between. This is FYI and not a recomendation of one over the other. It does appear the 91xg is better at the low channels and has better multipath rejection especially from the rear. The 4228 has far superior analog reception and VHF acceptance again especially from the rear. In case noted below it also maintain a lock with the same signal levels better then the 91XG but suffered from low channels drops.


Other info. The 4228 had a conflict with my dipole apparently. The dipole is mounted directly above the 91XG and 4228. I us it only for DT 7 and could get a steady 84 to 86 with the 91XG on the pole. The 4228 has killed the VHF reception of my dipole to low 60's and I no longer can get 7. This may be because they are too close together or that the Dipoles coax runs behind the 4228 to the booster which is located directly at the bottom of the 4228.


Also worth noting channel 7 is 40+ miles away and the 4228 will very rarely lock on this VHF channel. This is not reliable hit and miss with lots of drops. The 91XG would never lock on this channel. Thus the reason for my dipole. Requires signal of 81 to lock. The 91xg was only in the 60's on this channel. VHF high band much better apparently on the 4228.


Channel 2 analog only 17 miles and full power looks excellent on either antenna. 6, 8 and 10 analogs with the 4228 at 40 miles. 6 unwatchable 8 and 10 good with ghost. Analog 5,11 at 60 miles good even off the backside. The 4228 does better at these VHF frequencies but the 91 XG also would get these channles but not as well especially 5 and 6. 5 and 11 on the 4228 were very good with no ghost and 2 being full power and but 17 miles direct line of sight excellent.


My conclusion it's a draw! In my particular case where I have a channel 30 problem. It fixed the problem but created a channel 17 problem. 17 being PBS is no a problem for I have channel 41 also PBS which is my strongest digital and simulcast everything 17 does.


In your case if you are having trouble with lower channels 35 and down the 91XG seems a smidget better. 35 through 50 about the same and above 50 the 4228 takes all comers. Multipath problems the 91xg appears to be better.


I hope this may help someone somewhere. I believe these to be the 2 best domestic UHF antennas on the market available locally in most cases. The 91XG is an import (I believe) and not made in USA. It does have the best warranty of all antennas.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *Hey Jim,
> 
> Did you check out the Y10 7-13 stack I put up? I'm finally getting WKYT DT-13 from Lexington pretty consistently after much sweat and tears. Still tweaking on things, though. I have a barely used Funke psp 1922 (vhf 7-13) if you're interested. I'll be coming through Morristown Thursday on the way to Dollywood.
> 
> Charles*



Charles,

Not sure if it would help. How much you want for it? Like to give it a shot especially (if you saw my last post) the 4228 did a hurt on my dipole. I'd be happy with 12 from Hazard but it may also help 7 and 10 when they convert back. Email me back what you want for it at [email protected] . Do you go down 25E? If so I can meet you at the end of my road maybe. I give you a cell number and you can give me a shout when your close. I'm just across the Cherokee lake bridge about 1/2 mile.


Glad to hear you're getting some Lexington stations. Kentucky is pretty quiet for me. east west and south not much north.


----------



## mgtr

Heres the problem. I live about 50 miles from the digital antenna farm in Bithlo, Fla. They are NNE from me, and there is reasonably open terrain in front of my antenna. In order to semi-appease the HOA fuddy-duddies, I am using an eave mounted Winegard Square shooter in conjunction with a CM 7777 preamp driving about 75 feet of RG-6 in to an RCA D* HD receiver (excellent receiver, in my opinion). So, I get all the OTA channels flawlessly (85-100% signal strength) except NBC, which is the only VHF signal (channel 11). I don't even get a whiff of the channel on the signal strength meter. And yes, the switches are set correctly inside the 7777 (as shipped) to combine UHF and VHF.

As market #20, I would assume that in the next year or so D* will be providing me LiL channels, so I don't want to start changing antennas, etc. It just seems remarkable that I have no problems with any of the UHF channels, but get nothing at all on the only VHF channel.

Any thoughts on this strange problem?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mgtr_
> *Heres the problem. I live about 50 miles from the digital antenna farm in Bithlo, Fla. They are NNE from me, and there is reasonably open terrain in front of my antenna. In order to semi-appease the HOA fuddy-duddies, I am using an eave mounted Winegard Square shooter in conjunction with a CM 7777 preamp driving about 75 feet of RG-6 in to an RCA D* HD receiver (excellent receiver, in my opinion). So, I get all the OTA channels flawlessly (85-100% signal strength) except NBC, which is the only VHF signal (channel 11). I don't even get a whiff of the channel on the signal strength meter. And yes, the switches are set correctly inside the 7777 (as shipped) to combine UHF and VHF.
> 
> As market #20, I would assume that in the next year or so D* will be providing me LiL channels, so I don't want to start changing antennas, etc. It just seems remarkable that I have no problems with any of the UHF channels, but get nothing at all on the only VHF channel.
> 
> Any thoughts on this strange problem?*



Not very strange at all considering the Squareshooter's poor performance on VHF. See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html . It has around -21db gain at channel 11.


----------



## mgtr

cpcat-

Very interesting and useful info. I would say that explains 100% of the problem. I would be much better off with rabbit ears for VHF! I will have to some experimenting to see how best to address this problem (it may well be that ignoring it is the best solution!)

I will report back if anything worthwhile occurs. Thanks for helping to make this forum so valuable.


----------



## jimc705

MGTR you may want to give a dipole in the attic or a protected area outside a shot. Her's a link on how to build and cut for channel 11. Cost about $5 and 30 minutes of time. good luck.

http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by jimc705_
> *...The 4228 however maintains a lock much better then the 91XG. I can now watch CBS from Knoxville during the day with very few drops and at night with no drops.
> 
> 
> ...It seems to be steady and gets stronger signals when it rains for some reason. (The 91XG did this also).
> 
> 
> ...The 91 XG must have a very high front to back ratio and didn't even nudge the meter when it was pointed that direction.
> 
> 
> ...The 4228 on these strong signals was less directional then the 91XG.*



The 4228 has a wider beamwidth. This means that when you're getting variable scatter, it's more likely that you'll get the signal with a wider beamwidth. That explains your results with the 4228 being less directional than the 91XG.


My theory about rain is that the cloud cover bounces signals back down. I've seen the same thing, except during very heavy rains (severe thunderstorms) when the amount of moisture in the air blocks the UHF frequencies.


The 91XG has a reported 28db F/B ratio, which is extreme. I've found that it can reject signals very well from the rear, and not too bad from the sides. I think the reflector screen is the best I've ever encountered - which explains why it may do better than the 4228 on the low end - the corner reflector becomes very dominant below channel 25 or so.


The biggest concern with the 4228 has always been wind load - that antenna has a lot of area on it, and when the wind directions are just so, it can act like a sail and put tremendous force on your mount. Unless you are using a ham radio rotor (or only turn your antenna on calm days), your rotor is doomed with a 4228. Think annual replacement.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mgtr_
> *cpcat-
> 
> Very interesting and useful info. I would say that explains 100% of the problem. I would be much better off with rabbit ears for VHF! I will have to some experimenting to see how best to address this problem (it may well be that ignoring it is the best solution!)
> 
> I will report back if anything worthwhile occurs. Thanks for helping to make this forum so valuable.*



Follow Jim's link above for instructions on building a folded dipole for VHF.

It will be easy since you have the 7777: use the separate inputs and change the switch on the inside to "separate". Another helpful site: http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html 

Here's a picture of a channel 4 dipole I made:


----------



## f300v10

I need some expert advice here. I have been receiving OTA HD for close to a year now and have tried 3 antennas, ending up with an XG-42 Yagi from antennas direct. Up until a month ago I was able to get all the stations I needed (ABC-39, CBS-19, FOX-27, NBC-10, PBS-21, TBS-20, UPN-43, WB-25) with only occasional drops. Now that the trees are adding leaves again, CBS (19) has totally dropped. After several trips to the roof, I found that if I raised the antenna another 4 feet, CBS returns nice and stable. My problem is that at that location I loose ABC, FOX and WB.


My question is, where can I get a passband filter that would only pass channel 19, so that I could add a second antenna at the higher location for CBS only, and then join the two signals. With several channels so close to 19, the filter would need to be pretty steep. I did a google search for such a filter and all I found was a place in Canada that had one for $200. Is this even do-able?


Thanks


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *Another helpful site: http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html
> *



Thanks for this link! It verifies my worst fears - I'm getting FM interference on Channel 8! And it's going right through the FM trap on my preamp! My analog picture strongly resembles the third one on his FM page.


The "dark secret" of FM traps is that they usually don't work below 92Mhz (my problem station is at 91.7) I'd pay good money to have that interference go away. (They'll be on digital 41 until the shutoff, and then they'll move back to channel 8.)


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by f300v10_
> *With several channels so close to 19, the filter would need to be pretty steep. I did a google search for such a filter and all I found was a place in Canada that had one for $200. Is this even do-able?*



Doable? Yes. Cheaply? No.


The best thing to do would be to raise your antenna above the trees - 10' above them, if possible. Don't worry about ones more than 200'-300' away. Just get above the ones that are close in.


The second best thing would be to try a different style of antenna like the AntennasDirect DB8. The bowties do tend to do a little better in treed in areas.


The perfect filter option isn't going to be cheap, though you could try Jointennas designed for channels 17 or 16 and see if they work. (They have overlap in about 2 channels in each direction, and since you have nothing below 19 on UHF, they might work out okay.) Individual channel filters with sharp cutoffs are usually $200+, but if that's Canadian dollars...


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *Thanks for this link! It verifies my worst fears - I'm getting FM interference on Channel 8! And it's going right through the FM trap on my preamp! My analog picture strongly resembles the third one on his FM page.
> 
> 
> The "dark secret" of FM traps is that they usually don't work below 92Mhz (my problem station is at 91.7) I'd pay good money to have that interference go away. (They'll be on digital 41 until the shutoff, and then they'll move back to channel 8.)*



I use the FM trap in my 7777 and in *addition* put one in-line right before the TV (the one made by Winegard). It makes a definite difference without them both in. The other thing you could do (if you don't need low band) is to use the hi port of a hi-lo diplexer which will filter everything below channel 7 (including FM). A good and cheap one made by PICO at http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf 

I think it only passes DC on the lo port so you'll have to put it last or put it on the antenna.


----------



## terfmop

I've heard a few different opinions on joining two different antennas (2 UHFs pointed in separate directions and located on different masts). I've heard I can simply use a splitter only used in reverse, I've read about using a combiner (like the one at www.antennadirect.com ), and also about using a A/B switch. There is a big price difference between the splitter (~$4-$8) and the combiner($16 at antennadirect), can someone tell me which one I should be using?


Also, after reading the descriptions, it looks like the CM 7775 would be my best option for the amplifier (since I am only using UHF antennas). Should I consider a different amp.?


Thanks for helping ignorant souls like me!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by terfmop_
> *I've heard a few different opinions on joining two different antennas (2 UHFs pointed in separate directions and located on different masts). I've heard I can simply use a splitter only used in reverse, I've read about using a combiner (like the one at www.antennadirect.com ), and also about using a A/B switch. There is a big price difference between the splitter (~$4-$8) and the combiner($16 at antennadirect), can someone tell me which one I should be using?
> 
> 
> Also, after reading the descriptions, it looks like the CM 7775 would be my best option for the amplifier (since I am only using UHF antennas). Should I consider a different amp.?*



You cannot predict the results of combining two UHF antennas pointed in separate directions using either a simple splitter or a combiner - I'd guess that 75% of the time, it doesn't work for digital reception. The only way this works reliably is if you have *ONE* station in a different direction from all the others and you use a product from Channel Master called a "Jointenna." An A/B switch would also work well, but isn't quite as "automagic."


I don't recommend the 7775 to anyone at this point, as some digital signals will move back to VHF frequencies in a few years, and you'll need a new preamplifier when that happens (the 7775 does not pass VHF.) I'd get a 7777 instead.


----------



## terfmop




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *...as some digital signals will move back to VHF frequencies in a few years, and you'll need a new preamplifier when that happens (the 7775 does not pass VHF.) I'd get a 7777 instead.*



When will this move be taking place? Which channels will be affected?


----------



## f300v10

Thanks sregener. I tried a CM 4221 4 Bay, and it performed worse than the Yagi. I guess I could try a 4228 or the DB-8, but I just don't think I will see much difference. As far as the trees go, I have pines in front of the house that are 60+ feet. I doubt my wife would allow either a 70' antenna mast, or the use of a chainsaw . I looked at the Jointennas listed on the CM website, and all I found in the UHF range were 3 models, the closest one to 19 was the 0585-1 for channels 14-29. I don't think that would work since it would pass 19, 20, 21, 25 and 27 from the second antenna. Atlanta is one of the 10 DMA's that D* is launching HD local-in-local, so I guess I might just have to pass on CBS until then.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by terfmop_
> *When will this move be taking place? Which channels will be affected?*



Whenever analog shuts off. Who knows when that will be but it will happen sooner or later.


If you have analog stations in the 7-13 range chances are pretty good they'll want to go back to their analog channel number. High VHF is prime real estate as the same coverage area can be had for less power.

You can find out your local stations channel election application result at http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/ 

Click on your state, area, then the analog station in question's "complete FCC data" then go to "application list" and look for the "FRECT" application which should indicate the station's choice in the first round channel election.


----------



## dr1394

Article on DTV channel selection:

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...04.06.05.shtml 


Ron


----------



## terfmop




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *
> 
> Click on your state, area, then the analog station in question's "complete FCC data" then go to "application list" and look for the "FRECT" application which should indicate the station's choice in the first round channel election.*



Thanks! That helped, the station I was especially interested in (WRTV out of Indy) put their UHF station (25) as their first choice.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by f300v10_
> *I looked at the Jointennas listed on the CM website, and all I found in the UHF range were 3 models, the closest one to 19 was the 0585-1 for channels 14-29. I don't think that would work since it would pass 19, 20, 21, 25 and 27 from the second antenna. Atlanta is one of the 10 DMA's that D* is launching HD local-in-local, so I guess I might just have to pass on CBS until then.*



A model 0585-1 Join-tenna has separate bandpass and band reject traps that are tunable to any channel from 14-29. The bandpass width is several channels wide. They typically pass two adjacent lower channels and two adjacent upper channels unscathed, and taper through the third channel away. In other words, if you have one tuned to channel 23, it will pass channels 21-25 like a sieve, beat up channels 20 and 26, and evenly reject 14-19 and 27-69 to full depth, which might be around 20dB.


The band reject circuit on the "All Channels" port is only slightly narrower. If a Join-tenna is tuned to reject channel 23, then it will also wipe out channels 22 and 24, but taper fairly sharply through channels 21 and 25 and not impede 20 or 26 at all. In other words, the reject or notch filter is a couple of channels narrower than is the bandpass filter. With a spectrum analyzer, you can fudge the trap edges by about one channel, but you can't make the pass band or notch bands any narrower.


The other sucky thing about Jointennas is that they are in a unshielded plastic cases, and if you are real close to a channel you are trying to couple, the ingress can wreak havoc on the waveform of the strong, pass-band channel.


----------



## AntAltMike

I just read f300v10 's earlier post. He seems to need channel 19 from a different vertical plane, but must keep channel 21. He should order a Join-tenna tuned to channel 20. It will pass 19 and 21 from one antenna and couple them with the rest.


If these antennas are on the same mast, then he probably should try to keep the coax lengths to the Join-tenna identical, so that any unintended passed signal is in phase with the intended signal. That assumes that neither the band pass filter or the band reject filter shift the phase of any signals impressed upon them.


On the other hand, it is unlikely that the optimal location for the channel 19 antenna is on the same mast as the other antenna. If a better spot is found elsewhere, then there is no benefit to keeping the cable lengths equal.


I don't know why more people don't just use infrared A/B switches. There are models for $40 or less that can be toggled by any remote control, either by programming it to respond to an infrequently used button, or some other respond to any long duration infrared data stream.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by AntAltMike_
> *I don't know why more people don't just use infrared A/B switches. There are models for $40 or less that can be toggled by any remote control, either by programming it to respond to an infrequently used button, or some other respond to any long duration infrared data stream.*



I agree that the A/B switches seem to make the most sense for people who watch "live" television. But that number is dwindling as DVRs become more popular.


There also is the trainability factor. For me to explain how to watch television to someone visiting my house takes at least five minutes. And I still come home to find components (including the television itself, with a black screen) left on...


----------



## f300v10

AntAltMike, thanks for the input. The antennas would indeed be on the same mast. The reason I don't just use a switch, is that I have an HR10-250 HD TiVo, and watch almost all my programs recorded. Unless I have an automated way of switching the antenna inputs it wouldn't work.


To re-state what I am trying to do, I would like to get channels 10, 20, 21, 25, 27, 39 and 43 from my current primary antenna, and 19 only from one mounted 4 ft. higher. I have tried positioning my current antenna at 10 different heights and not one currently works for all the above channels. The current position gives me all but 19 perfectly, but next to nothing on 19. The good position for 19 gives bad 10, 20, 25, 27 and 39. 21 and 43 are great at both positions. If I am reading your comments correctly, I could get a 0585-1, tune the band reject to 20 for the primary and join the secondary? That should give me 19, 20 and 21 from the secondary and the rest from the primary? I think I might lose 20 in that case, but I would be willing to trade 20 for 19. Am I reading this correctly? Also do I order the Join-tenna pre-set to 20, or can I adjust it after I get it?


Thanks


----------



## AntAltMike

You've got it. The Join-tennas are normally ordered and shipped pretuned to the ordered channel. It would be almost impossible for you to further "tweak" its tuning without using a spectrum analyzer, but you shouldn't need to do that with the three insertion channels being adjacent to one another.


----------



## f300v10

Thanks AntAltMike. Would I be better off getting the JoinTenna set to band reject channel 17 as sregener suggested, which should let 14-19 pass, lower 13 and 20 and stop 2-12 and 21-60? I think that would be closest to my original goal of 19 only off the secondary antenna.


Also, the JoinTenna has 2 types of filters a band-pass and a band trap? If I order the unit set to channel 17, will that be the channel setting for both filters? And one last question, is the JoinTenna suitable for outdoor installation?


Thanks for all your help on this. It's knowlegble folks like you that make this forum such a great resource.


----------



## MAX HD

You may not have to use the jointennas.Just combine the two antennas using a splitter used backwards and equal length feedlines.You might get lucky


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by MAX HD_
> *You may not have to use the jointennas.Just combine the two antennas using a splitter used backwards and equal length feedlines.You might get lucky*



Well, shoot! Why didn't I think of this sooner?


Get a second identical antenna and combine the two like MAX HD says. If the antennas are identical and the feedlines to the splitter are exactly the same length, you've got yourself a vertical stack and it should work just fine. (Point the antennas in precisely the same direction, too.)


If it doesn't, you could still buy a Jointenna.


But I'm betting that a vertical stack hooked up like this would work great - and it might even improve reception on other stations you're not getting.


----------



## f300v10

OK, I will give that a try. If it doesn't work, I will then try the jointenna. Thanks again for all the help.


----------



## whosyourbaba

Hi


New member here. I've been reading through this thread trying to figure what is the best antenna to use. Im considering an indoor antenna as i only live like 4 miles away from the stations. Zip is 60616. I read the radio shack or silver something is good. Anyone could help me with clearer info in which is the best indoor antenna, and what model it is. ThANKS A LOT


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by whosyourbaba_
> *I read the radio shack or silver something is good. Anyone could help me with clearer info in which is the best indoor antenna, and what model it is. ThANKS A LOT*


 http://www.zenith.com/sub_prod/produ...?cat=49&id=131 

http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...%5Fid=15%2D624


----------



## greywolf

Since there is one VHF station in the area now and a couple more switching to VHF in the next couple of years, you might want to go for a combo antenna such as http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...1880&hp=search 


A UHF only antenna may work for VHF since the distance is so small though. A cheap rabbit ear + UHF loop could do the trick too.


----------



## j_buckingham80

Sregener-

The stations you're picking up with the XG91, how are they rated on AntennaWeb? Are they even rated?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by j_buckingham80_
> *The stations you're picking up with the XG91, how are they rated on AntennaWeb? Are they even rated?*



violet - uhf KMWB 23 WB MINNEAPOLIS MN

violet - vhf WKBT 8 CBS LA CROSSE WI

violet - uhf WHWC 28 PBS MENOMONIE WI

violet - uhf WFTC 29 UPN MINNEAPOLIS MN

violet - uhf WEUX 48 FOX CHIPPEWA FALLS WI

violet - uhf KXLT 47 FOX ROCHESTER MN

violet - uhf KYIN 24 PBS MASON CITY IA

violet - uhf KSTC 45 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN

violet - uhf KSMQ 15 PBS AUSTIN MN

violet - vhf KTTC 10 NBC ROCHESTER MN

* violet - uhf KTTC-DT 10.1 NBC ROCHESTER MN


As you can see, Antennaweb (no buildings, multiple story structure) expects me to receive one digital station, and that's with the largest antenna and preamp available.


I had a Winegard HD-7084P on my roof (single story), with a 28db UHF preamp (Winegard AP-8780) before my current tower, and I got KSMQ, KTTC and KXLT digitally 24x7. Obviously, they still come in with the 54' tower and the 91XG.


----------



## j_buckingham80

Thanks for the info. I'll have to give the antenna a long look, if i decide to attempt some violet S.F. channels.


----------



## NaptowneHDTV

I am moving to Edgewater, MD (Just West of Annapolis) in a couple of weeks and am wondering if anyone in the Annapolis/Edgewater area is getting DC channels OTA, and if so, what info they could provide regarding their setup regarding the type of antenna they are using, the type of mount, etc.


I am moving into a community with a HOA, and while I know they are not within their rights to do so, their rules place restrictions on antennas, etc. I will already be installing a Direct TV dish, and I'd rather not throw a huge antenna on the roof as well (and thus piss off the neighbors before I even get to know them!) so I am hoping I can get away with an attic install . . .


Any Annapolis/Edgewater/Davidsonville people here who can give me some OTA tips?


Thanks in advance!


----------



## greywolf

That area would appear to be covered by the D.C./Baltimore thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...44#post5288144


----------



## NaptowneHDTV

Thanks, Pat. I posted this information on that board as well. Hopefully I will get a response soon!


----------



## mikecoscia

How are the Terk HDTV-S antennas? Was thinking of getting one and mounting it on the roof.


----------



## greywolf

Sorry. Terk has a reputation for being overpriced and/or underperforming.


----------



## mikecoscia

Can you reccomend a good antenna I can just mout up on my roof and hook directly to my TV? I have a Sharp LCD and there are about 10 HD digital channels in my area that I want to be able to pick up. Most are fairly close to each other based off antennaweb.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mikecoscia_
> *Can you reccomend a good antenna I can just mout up on my roof and hook directly to my TV? I have a Sharp LCD and there are about 10 HD digital channels in my area that I want to be able to pick up. Most are fairly close to each other based off antennaweb.*



This falls into the FAQ category. It's been answered a thousand times (slight hyperbole) in this thread before. One question that always needs to be asked is how far you are from the towers. The further away, the larger the antenna you'll need.


Channel Master, Winegard and AntennasDirect all have good antenna designs in antennas. CM4221, CM4228, Winegard PR4400, PR8800, PR9032, and AntennasDirect DB4, DB8 and 43XG and 91XG are all great choices for most situations. (These are all UHF antennas, and will do an okay job on channels 7-13, and a very poor job on channels 2-6.)


I don't know about Sharp, but most LCD sets do not have digital tuners included, and are listed as "HD Ready." If that's the case, you'll need an external tuner, also called a STB.


----------



## nogascans

Mike, depending on which Sharp LCD you have ( "D" series have integrated ATSC/CableCard Tuners, newer 37GBU has ATSC only) you can use an antenna and simply select appropriate channel scan setup for digtial channels under the channel setup menu. I have a LC 32GD6U Model and I use a Channel Master 3020 antenna currently and I am able to pickup from my location ( Jesup, Ga.) the cbs affiliate in Savannah, Ga. station some 45 miles away at a signal level of 92. Unfortunately ( and this is after moving here from Va. Beach, Va., where we had Cbs, ABC, NBC, FOX, PBS, UPN, WB, &PAX all operating Digital Stations and all I needed was a radio Shack Bowtie on the back deck!) here there is only one Digital Station in Savannah operating at any decent transmission strength and Jacksonville, Florida is at the extreme fringe at 90 miles away!

My advise is get a decent antenna, use good cabling and sit back and enjoy!

Dave


----------



## mikecoscia

Yah I have a the sharp 37D7U the new ones that just came out, it has the tuner built in. My zip is 07508, I am 20 miles from NYC so I can get all there channels. So do I really need a large antenna or can I get something simple? That is why I was looking at the Terk and mounting it up in the attic or roof. Would a indoor powered anntenna even work? Also any need for a preamp or any other hardware just besides the antenna? I want to pick one up this weekend, dying to see some HD!!


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by mikecoscia_
> *Yah I have a the sharp 37D7U the new ones that just came out, it has the tuner built in. My zip is 07508, I am 20 miles from NYC so I can get all there channels. So do I really need a large antenna or can I get something simple? That is why I was looking at the Terk and mounting it up in the attic or roof. Would a indoor powered anntenna even work? Also any need for a preamp or any other hardware just besides the antenna? I want to pick one up this weekend, dying to see some HD!!*



Mike,


You might want to look around for a Channel Master 3016 (sometimes called a 5646) antenna as it covers both the VHF & UHF channels. Mount it outside on the roof. If you mount it in the attic you may need a Channel Master CM7777 preamp to make up the signal loss due to the attic. Always try it 1st without an amp because too much signal can be as bad as too little signal for TV reception.


Bob C


----------



## curban

I havent been able to verify this, but will a diplexer work to insert the UHF signal into a cable run from my cable company? I plan to install an antenna in my attic of my 2 story house. I am only about 16 miles from the towers so signal should be pretty good. I dont think I can get a new cable run from my attic to a downstairs room so I wanted to try the diplexer into the existing cable run.


thanks for any help


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by curban_
> *I havent been able to verify this, but will a diplexer work to insert the UHF signal into a cable run from my cable company?*



No. A Diplexer combines two signals that are on different frequencies. Cable uses the same frequencies as broadcast UHF.


You could look into an A/B switch, such as the remote-controlled one from Radio Shack, to switch between the two signals.


----------



## Senven

thanks, i was worried about that, guess if i cant drop another line then i will try the switch, didnt even consider that option. I really need to drop another line because i need to drop an ethernet line for my replaytv anyway


----------



## Rack

 http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...TowerAntennas/ 

Looks like MAX HD has been at it again. I'm sure he'll chime in on how that diamond quad is working out for him.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Rack_
> * http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...TowerAntennas/
> 
> Looks like MAX HD has been at it again. I'm sure he'll chime in on how that diamond quad is working out for him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Quite nicely thank you very much.Need a good band opening to see what It'll really do.And maybe some more tweaks.Things are pretty deadband now with this cold front that moved in.Although,I do see a boxing match currently on 44 up your way


----------



## Rack




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by MAX HD_
> *Quite nicely thank you very much.Need a good band opening to see what It'll really do.And maybe some more tweaks.Things are pretty deadband now with this cold front that moved in.Although,I do see a boxing match currently on 44 up your way*



Yep, that sounds like the repurposed Contender on Telemundo. Good thing NBCUniversal owns all those networks.


----------



## Jim1348




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by quarque_
> *Yes, you can overload your receiver. The general consensus is that amplifiers are not usually helpful below 30 miles. But being in an attic is a different situation and might benefit from an amplifier. So the question is why did you need to "improve things"? Were you getting audio and/or video dropouts etc? If not, there would be no reason to add anything to your basic antenna. The attenuator is in effect, lowering your amplifier gain. Changing to a lower gain (and lower noise) amplifier might be the best solution if you *really* do need an amplifier. How long is your cable run?*



Sorry, I have been away from this forum for a number of days, but I am back at this today. I returned the amplifier I bought. As a recap I am 20 miles from the transmitter and I have the CM 4228 8-bay multi-bow antenna in the attic. I am now starting to think that the DISH 811 receivers are sort of finicky. Anyway, I suspec that I may be suffering from some multi path distortion. It seems as if no matter how I adjust the antenna, I always seem to get one channel that will drop out. I told my wife tonight that as I see it I have basically three choices:


-Do nothing and always have one channel that has to be viewed analog.


-Move the antenna out of the attic and onto the roof


-Try moving the antenna inside the attic.


The attic where this antenna is located is above my attached two car garage. It is not a big problem to get up there because I have one of those folding drop down stair-ladders. Anyway, do you guys think that it might be worth my while to try moving the antenna mount either to the right or left a foot or two of where it is now or am I wasting my time? I think the 2 x 4 are spaces 16" apart so I could even move it closer to the wall or further away. Or shouold I be looking at some other solution? Again, I think that I have sufficient signal because a Wal-Mart DTV receiver connected to the same antenna has very good signal and does not drop out. And that is what has led me to believe that the DISH 811 is a more touchy digital receiver on OTA broadcast.


----------



## jimc705

Jim,

You never know till you try. I know if I move mine up or down 6 inches I'll loose a channel and gain others. Yes they may be a sweet spot where you can get them all. It took me about 4 hours to find the right spot but now I have rock solid signals. Remeber the 4228 is highly directional so adjusting a few degrees either way will make a big difference. Moving outside will probably be the better choice and will gain signal strength an all stations. Good Luck.


----------



## Ken H

In general, for better OTA reception:

Outside

Higher

Bigger


Having said that, if you are close with the antenna in the attic, try moving it to different locations, you may well find one that does the trick.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Jim1348_
> *I am now starting to think that the DISH 811 receivers are sort of finicky.*



They definitely are. If you haven't tried one yet, a variable attenuator from Radio Shack can help with multipath issues.


----------



## cpcat

I've been playing around again trying to increase performance on high band vhf (7-13). I've been through various full band vhf as well as combo antennas, a single Antennacraft Y10 7-13 as well as the Funke psp 1922 (7-13) which I purchased from MaxHD. Other than bigger and better in general my goal has been a digital channel 13 75 miles away (WKYT 13 Lexington, KY). I have really had little success up to now.


I've had a UHF Band A stack (14-37 or thereabouts) for some time now. It occurred to me that I could suspend a high band stack (or anything else for that matter) beneath it. I ended up using 1 inch aluminum tubing from Lowe's and used CM roof/attic mounts to make the 90 degree attachment.


Up to now, the best performance I've had for high band has been the psp 1922 mentioned above. It's the best single antenna for high band that I know of. The y10 7-13 is close to it though and stacking in the horizontal plane narrows horizontal beamwidth as well as increasing gain. For me two stacked y10 7-13's has perfomed better overall, likely due to the increased directivity. I have one analog 13 at 146 degrees, one analog 13 at 278 degrees, as well as the digital 13 which was my goal at 352 degrees.


Results are that now I can at least watch WKYT 13 some of the time depending on weather conditions. I could only rarely even lock on it with the psp 1922. There are times (like today) when conditions are totally so-called "dead band" in which I can't get a lock, but I can almost always at least lock on it after sunset now. My high band overall (analogs, other digitals) seems to be slightly better overall as well (compared to the single psp 1922).


Funke makes a combo uhf/high band antenna that if I could get I'd like to do a quad with next. Don't know if that will ever happen, though. Ideally, it'd be a combo high band/band K (14-51) IMO but I've not seen one of those yet.


If anyone out there wants to do this a rotator is crucial, both to aim and also to turn the rig downwind during a storm. We had about a 60 mph blow the other night and mine survived (forgot and left it broad-sided) but the wind rotated the entire thing including the mast about 25 degrees.


I'm going to post this in the hardware section as well so if you don't want to re-read this just ignore it.


Charles


----------



## zukon2002

I'm new so please excuse me if this has been asked.


Can i use my Directv or Dish satellites as antennas. If so, how is this possible.


I am thinking of purchasing the Sony KDF-55 WF655/XS955 with a built in tuner.


I would like to take advantage of the OTA HD channels


----------



## greywolf

No. Try antennaweb.org to find your local stations and see what color code set an antenna would need to be able to handle and how far away your stations are. Include your zip code in your location. See the info under my picture for a sample.


----------



## Tornillo

i remember outside antennas being a big hassle to install. Granted, this was the early 70's, but keep in mind, ....I'm not what one would call "handy".


Is it possible for me to install an outside OTA? If I get a CM from Lowes. will they install it for me? Is there anyone else who should come to mind?


Thanks!!


----------



## ritterd

Question about antenna's. I solely want to pick up the HDTV channels that are offered in my area. According to Antennaweb the closest tower is 11.4 miles, and furthest is 12.4. I do not have any major obstructions, and I am at the end of a street, so I don't have a house right next to me.


I would really like to stick with something indoor if possible. So far I see a lot of mention of the "Silver Sensor" from zenith. I also found a Terk TV5 that got good reviews on CC.com I have read though that AVS is not fond of Terk. Any suggestions?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ritterd_
> *Question about antenna's. I solely want to pick up the HDTV channels that are offered in my area. According to Antennaweb the closest tower is 11.4 miles, and furthest is 12.4. I do not have any major obstructions, and I am at the end of a street, so I don't have a house right next to me.
> 
> 
> I would really like to stick with something indoor if possible. So far I see a lot of mention of the "Silver Sensor" from zenith. I also found a Terk TV5 that got good reviews on CC.com I have read though that AVS is not fond of Terk. Any suggestions?*




For indoor antennas, look here: http://www.radioshack.com/category.a...1%5F000&Page=1 


The first one is the best indoor RS has and includes VHF capability which you don't really need in Philly for DT. The second one is a silver sensor equivalent which would be fine as well. The dual bowtie for 14.99 would also probably work for you. If you don't get adequate indoor reception try a CM 4221 in your attic. Good luck.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Tornillo_
> *i remember outside antennas being a big hassle to install. Granted, this was the early 70's, but keep in mind, ....I'm not what one would call "handy".
> 
> 
> Is it possible for me to install an outside OTA? If I get a CM from Lowes. will they install it for me? Is there anyone else who should come to mind?
> 
> 
> Thanks!!*



It's not very hard, really. If you have the time, you can do just as good or better yourself as opposed to hiring it out. Lowe's won't install AFAIK, so if you're not up to it you'll have to contact someone locally. Try local appliance/TV stores or ask around at local hardware stores.


I don't know where you are in Texas (which will determine the type/size antenna and installation) but in general a ground mount strapped to your house is one of the least difficult and strongest installations.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by ritterd_
> *According to Antennaweb the closest tower is 11.4 miles, and furthest is 12.4. I do not have any major obstructions, and I am at the end of a street, so I don't have a house right next to me.*



Assuming all your digital stations are UHF, get a Silver Sensor and be done with it. You'll spend too much money on a Terk, and you won't get nearly the bang for the buck that you will with other brands.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Tornillo_
> *i remember outside antennas being a big hassle to install. Granted, this was the early 70's, but keep in mind, ....I'm not what one would call "handy".*



I've done a couple of installs, and I'm far from handy. I'd recommend getting a professional installer if you have any doubts about your abilities. Knowing that holes in the roof are properly sealed, knowing that everything has been done to make sure the whole thing won't blow over, and knowing that you're getting the best reception possible at your location can easily justify the couple hundred dollars you'll pay to have the job done right.


Nothing has happened in the last 30 years to make installing an antenna easier.


----------



## j_buckingham80




> Quote:
> Nothing has happened in the last 30 years to make installing an antenna easier.



Well, kind of, the significantly less utilization (or almost complete non-utilization for DTV) of the low-VHF spectrum has made some improvement I'd say...UHF antennas being generally smaller/easier to install.


----------



## SnellKrell

What has happened in the last 30 years is that you're 30 years older!


Spend some bucks and stay out of the hospital!


You then also have someone to blame when there's a problem!


Gary


----------



## dapack5

how much difference does it make dropping from a 4.5db power/preamp to either a 2.0 or 2.8db? i.e. channel master or winegard unit? i'm from the old school as far as amps/lnb ( as in C band satellite ) i know that dropping from 60 to 50 degree lnb wasn't worth the price but from 60 to 25 was.

4.5db signal to noise ratio


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dapack5_
> *how much difference does it make dropping from a 4.5db power/preamp to either a 2.0 or 2.8db? i.e. channel master or winegard unit? i'm from the old school as far as amps/lnb ( as in C band satellite ) i know that dropping from 60 to 50 degree lnb wasn't worth the price but from 60 to 25 was.
> 
> 4.5db signal to noise ratio*



It will improve your signal but whether it will make any difference in your reception will depend on your situation and likely only trying will tell. What is your goal?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dapack5_
> *how much difference does it make dropping from a 4.5db power/preamp to either a 2.0 or 2.8db?*



If you're having reception problems, this is a great place to start. Digital reception is much more touchy with noise than analog, and you might find that it will solve minor problems for you. If you're having major problems or no problems at all, you shouldn't switch out the preamp.


To drop from 4.5 to 2.0 would be a decrease of almost half the noise your preamp is putting out.


----------



## dapack5




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *It will improve your signal but whether it will make any difference in your reception will depend on your situation and likely only trying will tell. What is your goal?*



i have been reading about how the cm-7777 is more superior than the radioshack model i have,and i also hear about the wingard that's 2.8 UHF and 2.9 VHF db,i'm looking to clean up my signal,and try to eliminate some of the cross interference of some channels. ( example ) channel 30 causes interference on 29 almost like the fine tuning is off on the old block tuner type televisions. layman's terms i guess would be 2 channels trying to come in on 1! without the preamp/poweramp channels are not real good.

appraoximately 19 miles form one tower and 26 miles from another and in different directions too,with the poweramp i can receive all my locals except the 2 i' mentioned above,without it,it's like pulling hens' teeth

and no HD at all. i recently tried the 4228 antenna to compare it with mine and there was no difference. antenna 30ft in the air and i'm tired of trying different antennas,so,i thought that maybe the 7777 or winegard unit may be better for me.


no towers,trees,or obstructions close to antenna or in direction of TV towers


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by dapack5_
> *i have been reading about how the cm-7777 is more superior than the radioshack model i have,and i also hear about the wingard that's 2.8 UHF and 2.9 VHF db,i'm looking to clean up my signal,and try to eliminate some of the cross interference of some channels. ( example ) channel 30 causes interference on 29 almost like the fine tuning is off on the old block tuner type televisions. layman's terms i guess would be 2 channels trying to come in on 1! without the preamp/poweramp channels are not real good.
> 
> appraoximately 19 miles form one tower and 26 miles from another and in different directions too,with the poweramp i can receive all my locals except the 2 i' mentioned above,without it,it's like pulling hens' teeth
> 
> and no HD at all. i recently tried the 4228 antenna to compare it with mine and there was no difference. antenna 30ft in the air and i'm tired of trying different antennas,so,i thought that maybe the 7777 or winegard unit may be better for me.
> 
> 
> no towers,trees,or obstructions close to antenna or in direction of TV towers*



This is called adjacent channel interference and you won't cure it with a preamp. There are two things you can consider that I'm aware of. Neither are easy. You have to attenuate or null the offending channel somehow. An adjustable notch filter is one option (Winegard-cheaper, Blonger Tongue-more expensive). They can be tricky to adjust. You might do the same thing with the CM Jointenna product (use the filter part only, and for the offending channel). You'll likely have to work at this some.


The other option is to horizontally stack two antennas and space them so the offending channel is nulled when you are pointing at the channel you want. See http://www.kyes.com/antenna/sca/scaint1.html and http://www.kyes.com/antenna/sca/scaint2.html For adjacent channel interference (as opposed to co-channel interference), use the frequency of the offending channel when making the calculation.


Of the two methods, the filter works better in my experience.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *This is called adjacent channel interference and you won't cure it with a preamp.*



It can be caused or worsened by a preamp, though.


Something has to be seriously wrong if you need a preamp with line-of-sight at 25 miles, especially with a CM4228. Either you've aimed it wrong, or you're using bad cable, a bad balun, or bad splitters.


----------



## cliftonite

I am pretty close to NYC (zip 07014) and I was wondering if I could get away with an outdoor antenna from Radioshack (something like this 

What would buying a winegard or a channel master offer me compared to the Radioshack? (I was thinking about the winegard 7082 for uhf/vhf or 9095 just for UHF ,or a similar CM, or a 91xG)


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cliftonite_
> *I am pretty close to NYC (zip 07014) and I was wondering if I could get away with an outdoor antenna from Radioshack (something like this
> 
> What would buying a winegard or a channel master offer me compared to the Radioshack? (I was thinking about the winegard 7082 for uhf/vhf or 9095 just for UHF ,or a similar CM, or a 91xG)*



Since RS is convenient and has easy returns, go ahead. You've nothing to lose and at your distance there are many antennas that would work. Every install is different and there is no guarantee that any particular antenna will work better than another. AVS members prefer certain antennas because statistically they perform better than others, all else being equal. But you are so close it may not matter what you use.


P.S. your link took me to a page on RG6 cable (?) but a popular RS antenna is the 15-2160 small yagi. If you need to pick up any low VHF channels you should consider a combo UHF/VHF unit.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cliftonite_
> *What would buying a winegard or a channel master offer me compared to the Radioshack?*



Better build quality. For similar sized antennas, there really isn't much difference in gain between the three companies. However, the Radio Shack will degrade in the elements faster (rust) and may suffer breakage on lo-VHF dipoles if large birds land on them.


I generally only recommend Radio Shack antennas for attic/indoor installs.


At 10 miles, just about any antenna is going to work. I'd lean heavily towards the Channel Master 4221 (4-bay bowtie) as it seems to offer the best bang for the buck.


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cliftonite_
> *I am pretty close to NYC (zip 07014) and I was wondering if I could get away with an outdoor antenna from Radioshack (something like this
> 
> What would buying a winegard or a channel master offer me compared to the Radioshack? (I was thinking about the winegard 7082 for uhf/vhf or 9095 just for UHF ,or a similar CM, or a 91xG)*



cliftonite,


Sregner is giving you some very good advice about the CM4221. The only thing I have to add is that some of your stations may opt to going back to VHF after the cutover. You might want to look at a CM3016, or a CM5646, or a Winegard HD7210 antenna for your roof in case they do. Also, I think that some are still broadcasting from Alpine, NJ site. so you may need to contemplate as rotor as well.


You could call the stations you watch and ask them about where they are broadcasting from and what channel they have filed for, post-cutover before you proceed.


Bob Chase


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by bobchase_
> *The only thing I have to add is that some of your stations may opt to going back to VHF after the cutover.*



Actually, NYC has two digital station on hi-VHF now. But any UHF antenna should be okay on hi-VHF at 10 miles. I get hi-VHF stations from 60 miles away with my AntennasDirect 91XG.


The only reason he'd need a VHF/UHF antenna would be for lo-VHF, and none have made their first-round elections for lo-VHF. I think the 4221 is a very safe choice.


----------



## Hassbk

I have a new Sony 34XS955, using old yagi on roof for OTA reception. Dreary weather today resulted in frequent HDTV signal black-outs on virtually all main local stations (Washington, DC, area). I'm new to the HDTV world and did not expect rain fade when I'm only 10 miles or so from the broadcast antennas, and I have a roof-top receiving antenna.


I have 300-ohm twin-lead from the antenna to inside the attic, where it converts to 75-ohm coax for the rest of the trip. Given that I'm so close to the transmission towers, I would have thought rabbit ears would have been good enough for reception! I'd appreciate any suggestions or insights.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Hassbk_
> *I have a new Sony 34XS955, using old yagi on roof for OTA reception. Dreary weather today resulted in frequent HDTV signal black-outs on virtually all main local stations (Washington, DC, area). I'm new to the HDTV world and did not expect rain fade when I'm only 10 miles or so from the broadcast antennas, and I have a roof-top receiving antenna.*



You shouldn't be having issues with rain, especially at that distance. I have issues with stations 75+ miles out during very heavy rain (severe thunderstorms) but otherwise am unaffected. I'd check your connections for rust and maybe strip the last inch or so of the 300-Ohm cable and reconnect it. Also check your grounding connection to make sure it isn't rusted out.


----------



## Hassbk

I'm not sure how to include the previous post in this reply (for reference), but this is in reply to "sregener" regarding signal loss during the rain and today during the sunshine.


This is all very confusing. The NTSC signals are coming in fine. I guess there is something going on that's affecting only the ATSC signals. Today, when Fox 5.1 was going in and out, it was very windy. So maybe there's some obstruction that affects the ATSC but not the NTSC. I checked the wiring on the roof this afternoon, and I didn't see any problems -- but who knows!


Anyway, thanks for the suggestions.


P.S.: Fox 45.1 out of Baltimore is more reliable than Fox 5.1 here in DC!


----------



## holl_ands

Hassbkf: Unshielded 300-ohm twinlead has very high loss when it gets wet.


----------



## Hassbk

Holl-ands, very interesting. You mean when the exterior of the insulation gets wet, it causes the run of the cable to be lossy? Or you mean if water actually gets "underneath" the insulation?


Regardless, I think the next step for me is to rip out the 300-ohm and put in RG-6. It's going to be a hassle, though, because the antenna is too high above the roof to be reachable, and all of the u-bolt parts holding it up there are rusted together. Anyway, thanks for your help.


----------



## nickw23

I'm using a TERK TV-5(the hdtvi was worse). I'm going to try out the $50 Radio shack one as well. I can get the stations I'm interested in, but am experiecing channel loss(either completey or pixelation) Can you add more amplifying to an already amplified antannae? I'm interested in 57.1, 40.1, 22.1, and 3.1 Would all of these work on a UHF only antannae?


yellow - uhf WGBY 57 PBS SPRINGFIELD MA 323° 5.7 57

* yellow - uhf WGBY-DT 57.1 PBS SPRINGFIELD MA 323° 5.8 58

yellow - uhf WGGB 40 ABC SPRINGFIELD MA 323° 5.8 40

* yellow - uhf WGGB-DT 40.1 ABC SPRINGFIELD MA 323° 5.8 55

green - uhf WTIC 61 FOX HARTFORD CT 217° 36.4 61

green - uhf WWLP 22 NBC SPRINGFIELD MA 240° 10.3 22

* green - vhf WWLP-DT 22.1 NBC SPRINGFIELD MA 240° 10.3 11

* green - uhf WEDH-DT 45 PBS HARTFORD CT 217° 36.4 45

lt green - uhf WVIT 30 NBC NEW BRITAIN CT 217° 36.5 30

* lt green - uhf WTIC-DT 31.1 FOX HARTFORD CT 217° 36.4 31

lt green - uhf WDMR-LP 65 TEL HARTFORD CT 240° 10.3 65

lt green - uhf WEDH 24 PBS HARTFORD CT 218° 31.3 24

lt green - uhf WUVN 18 UNI HARTFORD CT 218° 31.1 18


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Hassbk_
> *I guess there is something going on that's affecting only the ATSC signals. Today, when Fox 5.1 was going in and out, it was very windy. So maybe there's some obstruction that affects the ATSC but not the NTSC.*



Wind can cause your antenna to move, which creates a varying signal strength or even multipath. Many people report reception problems in windy conditions. Rain, no. Wind, yes. Especially with trees nearby.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by nickw23_
> *Can you add more amplifying to an already amplified antannae?*



Yes, but you shouldn't. And at 5-10 miles, you shouldn't be using any amplification at all. It can only do bad things to your reception at that distance.


Once you've overcome tuner noise level and cable loss, more amplification won't help. Doubtless you're well over that already.


A good UHF antenna like the Radio Shack double-bowtie should work on most of the channels, but any indoor antenna is pushing things at 30 miles. If you want all the stations you listed, an outdoor antenna like the Channel Master 4221 is your best bet. You'll need a rotor to get all those stations, as they spread over quite a compass range. At 10 miles, any UHF antenna should get the hi-VHF digital signal.


----------



## nickw23

Thanks for the quick reply!


So do you think I should return the Terk TV-5 and get the Radioshack Double bowtie UHF? With just UHF would I recieve the majority of the channels I'm intersted in?


----------



## j_buckingham80

With just UHF you might have a problem getting NBC 11, but I doubt it, as Sreg has pointed out, you're really quite close. Sreg, if he's looking to stick with something indoors, do you think the DB2 would work well for him? It'd probably be iffy on the 30 miles though (I got stations 30 miles out with a silver sensor, but I think that's uncommon). The DB2 would probably be better than the Radio Shack Double bow-tie.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by nickw23_
> *So do you think I should return the Terk TV-5 and get the Radioshack Double bowtie UHF? With just UHF would I recieve the majority of the channels I'm intersted in?*



I'd return the TV-5. It's overpriced for how it performs, by a long shot.


With a good indoor UHF antenna, you should get these stations you listed:

yellow - uhf WGBY 57 PBS SPRINGFIELD MA 323° 5.7 57

* yellow - uhf WGBY-DT 57.1 PBS SPRINGFIELD MA 323° 5.8 58

yellow - uhf WGGB 40 ABC SPRINGFIELD MA 323° 5.8 40

* yellow - uhf WGGB-DT 40.1 ABC SPRINGFIELD MA 323° 5.8 55

green - uhf WWLP 22 NBC SPRINGFIELD MA 240° 10.3 22

* green - vhf WWLP-DT 22.1 NBC SPRINGFIELD MA 240° 10.3 11

lt green - uhf WDMR-LP 65 TEL HARTFORD CT 240° 10.3 65


The best indoor UHF antenna is either the AntennasDirect DB2 or the Zenith Silver Sensor. Either would be great. The Radio Shack Twin Bowtie is a very good alternative, though. You can compare gain charts here:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/g...yG.html#indoor 


The DB2 performs better, but doesn't look as good. And it probably isn't worth twice the price for 10 miles.


----------



## holl_ands

Hassbk: Dirty water on the exterior of unshielded twinlead effectively "shorts" out the signal....hence high loss when wet.


Ancient twinlead also deterioriates, cracks and lets in moisture.


Unshielded twinlead also contributes to multipath, since it acts as a huge auxilliary antenna structure.


----------



## Hassbk

Holl-ands: well, I guess that could explain it -- especially since I'm so close to the broadcast towers (~10 miles). It's interesting that the analog NTSC signals don't show any significant degradation, but I suspect the multipath interference as the wet twin-lead blows around in the wind would affect the DTV signal much more. Thanks for your help.


----------



## batch

Does anyone know where I can buy the Radioshack Double bowtie UHF antenna? Radio Shack is out of stock ( http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...ct%5Fid=15-624 )


Nothing turns up on eBay either...


----------



## sdeweese

I've read through quite a bit of this thread and from what I've learned, it appears that I can probably get by with an indoor or bow-tie. I'd appreciate some guidance because of some variables that I think will impact my situation. I'm in Western NC and the terrain is pretty hilly. We are near the crest of a large hill with a multi-story house. My receiver and viewing area are in the walk out basement and the area is wooded with tall trees. Below is the information from antennaweb:


yellow - uhf WLOS-DT 13.1 ABC ASHEVILLE NC 302° 11.4 56

* yellow - uhf WUNF-DT 33.1 PBS ASHEVILLE NC 302° 11.4 25

* yellow - uhf WHNS-DT 21.1 FOX ASHEVILLE NC 213° 13.0 57

* yellow - uhf WASV-DT 62.1 UPN ASHVILLE NC 176° 8.9 45

* violet - uhf WYFF-DT 4.1 NBC GREENVILLE SC 191° 16.6 59


I realize it is trial and error, any recommendations of where to start?


Thank you,


Steve


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sdeweese_
> *I realize it is trial and error, any recommendations of where to start?
> *



If you want to try an indoor antenna, the Zenith Silver Sensor is the place to start.


----------



## CountryJoe

What would be the best way to check signal strength? I have the antenna going straight into the TV (Mits 65813). I am getting great, uninterrupted PQ. I would like to check out of interest.


Thanks.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by CountryJoe_
> *What would be the best way to check signal strength? I have the antenna going straight into the TV (Mits 65813). I am getting great, uninterrupted PQ. I would like to check out of interest.
> 
> 
> Thanks.*



I assume you set doesn't have a built in meter. If you are getting good DTV without drops then I wouldn't worry about it. You can get a field strength meter but they are expensive. The meters built in from different manfacturers are all different. Some read RF, some S/N, some bit errors and some use combination of these. This is why you'll see some with reading as low as 30 but still get great DTV while others need 80 or more for good PQ. I now have Dish 942 and they read bit errors and RF combo I believe. Signal below 60 will have break ups and may be unwatchable. Using their method of reception here's a good estimate of what you are probably doing.


If you have a straight line of sight to transmitters then you probably in the high 80's to 90's. within 30 to 40 miles with a resonably good outdoor antenna no line of sight high 70's low 80's. Beyond 40 and up to 100 with a good antenna mid 60's to mid 70's. Needless to say these can vary widely with your terrain but will give you an idea with no real terrain problems. I do get a few around 80 miles in the high 80's low 90's but they are extremely high and mostly down hill to my location.


----------



## holl_ands

Silver Sensor may be better indoor antenna.


However, you can get also get the almost as good indoor C-M 2-Bay Dipole:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmant.htm 


Which is considerably less than the outdoor DB2 from www.antennasdirect.com


----------



## batch

Am I in a OTA black hole?


Using a Silver Sensor with a Samsung SIR-T351 from my apartment on the 3rd (top floor). I am 8-9 miles away from all towers that I wish to receive. My zip is 22180.


Yet...I can just get one channels reliably (and that is only 1 mile away from me!). I live in the DC area and can see the Beltway from my apartment balcony.


What gives? I've seen people getting channels 40 miles away with the Silver Sensor, and I can't get one? Is there some setting in my tuner that I am missing? Are the trees outside my balcony (there are quite a few) blocking the signals?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by batch_
> *What gives? I've seen people getting channels 40 miles away with the Silver Sensor, and I can't get one? Is there some setting in my tuner that I am missing? Are the trees outside my balcony (there are quite a few) blocking the signals?*



Could be, or your apartment could be facing away from the towers. If you're pointing the wrong way, it's going to be hard to get good digital reception with current technology. New receivers that are better are coming, but they aren't here yet.


----------



## CountryJoe

Thanks, Jimc705.


I was just interested to see, if there was an easy and cheap way. The pic is great so I am not concerned. No drops, no breakup. I am about 37 miles from ESB and using xg91 from AntennasDirect. I highly recommend them.


----------



## georgemoe




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by batch_
> *Am I in a OTA black hole?
> 
> 
> What gives? I've seen people getting channels 40 miles away with the Silver Sensor, and I can't get one? Is there some setting in my tuner that I am missing? Are the trees outside my balcony (there are quite a few) blocking the signals?*



Sorry to hear that batch. I'm one of those lucky ones at about 32 miles.


Fortunately, my Silver Sensor is on top of our EC, and literally three inches from the houses east facing outside wall. That and I'm on a hill.


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by batch_
> *Am I in a OTA black hole?
> 
> 
> Using a Silver Sensor with a Samsung SIR-T351 from my apartment on the 3rd (top floor). I am 8-9 miles away from all towers that I wish to receive. My zip is 22180.
> 
> 
> Yet...I can just get one channels reliably (and that is only 1 mile away from me!). I live in the DC area and can see the Beltway from my apartment balcony.
> 
> 
> What gives? I've seen people getting channels 40 miles away with the Silver Sensor, and I can't get one? Is there some setting in my tuner that I am missing? Are the trees outside my balcony (there are quite a few) blocking the signals?*



You might be suffering from signal overload or severe multipath. Try an inline attenutator from Radio Shack (


----------



## jjnemoiii

Batch, have you tried the cheap $3.99 UHF bowtie from Rat Shack? These clip on to VHF rod element inside... I am in a red zone per antennaweb.org, looking through a train across the street (50 ft away) and an overpass over RR tracks. With a train there, and many cars on the overpass, all but 2 of my locals lock easily. With train gone, 1 more local comes in. all are 26-27 miles out.


----------



## jjnemoiii

Oh yeah, forgot this - It is mounted about 1 ft. above Dish Network sat dish, about 2-3 ft above roofline of 1 story house.


----------



## batch

thanks for all the replies....i think i got the patience mustered up again for one last try 


quarque - which of these would work the best:

http://www.radioshack.com/search.asp...1=submit&SRC=1 


(i guess i could try them all and return them if they don't work)


and, jjnemoiii, is this what you were talking about:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...ct%5Fid=15-624 


thanks again!


----------



## jjnemoiii

Batch, sorry, no, thats not it. I cant post link yet. @ Rat shack website, on the left, mouse over TV,Sat,Video, then click on Antenna at top of sub menu. On the next screen, click on indoor. Then go to second page, there it is. Cost is $3.99, Rat Shack# 15-234. Also need Matching transformer, 300 ohm to 75 ohm. this is $3.99 as well, Rat Shack# 15-1253.


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by batch_
> *thanks for all the replies....i think i got the patience mustered up again for one last try
> 
> 
> quarque - which of these would work the best:
> 
> http://www.radioshack.com/search.asp...1=submit&SRC=1
> 
> . . .
> *



None of those. You want the variable one: # 15-678 for $9.99

So you can vary the amount of attenuation.


----------



## Hassbk

Batch, I'll be very interested in your results. I live in a single-family home in zip 22182, and I've been having great difficulty in locking in all of the OTA stations. I have an antenna on the roof, and my problem is that I lose Fox 5 when it's windy (like it was this weekend). Earlier, I received suggestions from this forum to replace the 300-ohm twin lead with coax. I did that, with no improvement (or maybe mild improvement; I don't yet know if this solution works better in the rain). I'm on the other side of a hill from Tyson's Corner (which itself is on a hill), so I think I'm just SOL. I may have to (gulp) go back to Cox Cable.


----------



## batch

Hey, Hassbk...I'll defn post with my results, but I am 99% sure nothing will change.


And even if I miraculously get the channels, I doubt they will come in all the time and not be subject to weather, next door neighbor moving around, me moving around, etc. Not to mention having get up and move the antenna sometimes to pickup another channel.


I hate to admit it, but right now, Cox gives the most hassle free HDTV for me. Hopefully, when Verizon FIOS and Dish/D* get HDTV locals, we will have some competition.


----------



## nrj0122

If I just want free OTA HD channels to come in on my HD TV-all I need is to get a HD Attenna from Radio shack (for ex.) and hook that directly to back of my HD tv correct? I dont need a set top box/reciever also?


thanks for any info


----------



## CPanther95




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by nrj0122_
> *If I just want free OTA HD channels to come in on my HD TV-all I need is to get a HD Attenna from Radio shack (for ex.) and hook that directly to back of my HD tv correct? I dont need a set top box/reciever also?
> 
> 
> thanks for any info*



Does your HDTV have a built-in tuner? If so, an antenna is all you'd need.



Threads merged.


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by nrj0122_
> *If I just want free OTA HD channels to come in on my HD TV-all I need is to get a HD Attenna from Radio shack (for ex.) and hook that directly to back of my HD tv correct? I dont need a set top box/reciever also?
> 
> 
> thanks for any info*



If your set has an ATSC tuner built in and you're close enough to receive OTA then yes you'll just need a good antenna. Probably not a Rat Shack though.


----------



## AcidBath

Hello! First post for me as I delve into trying to get a decent DTV signal on my 65" Mitsubishi.

Basically it has a built in HDTV tuner and I started off trying to pickup stations on my rabbit ears with mixed results.

So on a friends recommendation I bought a 'Silver Sensor' type. That worked OK, but we still had a lot of drop outs.


So now I am going to get a Channel Master 4228 and try and end drop outs all together. I am only 13 miles from my tower and on flat land (NW Ohio for gods sake) but there are a lot of big trees near me.


My question here is can I mount the 4228 to a TV antenna tower?

We already have a huge tower (pyramid style tubing up 40 ft or so) with a very old and crappy yagi style antenna on top.

It also does not feel very safe to go to high on said tower since it isn't anchored to the house all the well.


So what I want to do is install the CM4228 as high up on the tower as possible and point it towards the tower.


Will this work? Am I wasting my time? I rent the house so I am a bit hesitant to put holes in the roof installing a mast and there is no chimney.


Just hoping for some help


----------



## CPanther95

Threads merged.


Welcome to the forum AcidBath.


----------



## quarque

AcidBath - a 4228 is a bit overkill for 13 miles. You should have enough signal at that distance to use a paper clip - don't laugh, I tried it and it worked on my receiver. Your problem may be severe multipath (reflections) or just too much signal. The reflections are out of phase with the main signal and most receivers have a tough time dealing with them. If you have already gotten the 4228 then you can put it just about anywhere, but you should also install an inline attenuator (Radio Shack 15-678 or similar). You will have way too much signal. On the other hand the 4228 is fairly directional and may help with the reflections (it also has a backside screen to prevent reflections from getting through from the back side). The SS may still be the best choice - you just need to experiment with location. Most often it is location that is the big variable, even as close as you are.


----------



## sebenste

Hello Acidbath and Quarque,


Here's a brain dump which may or may not be correct, feel free to

tear my theories apart here.


People don't recommend 4228's for strong signal areas. I do in many cases, and here's why. If you have strong signals with strong multipath,

you'll need a very directional antenna. If you have a very directional antenna, you also get lots of gain. Having way too much high-quality signal is

infinitely better than having a multipathed or weak signal, since a $7

Radio Shack signal attenuator can fix that.


Case in point...a friend of mine lives 20 miles from Sears Tower in Chicago.

Can't go on the roof with his antenna, and a Radio Shack VU-160

(suburban to far suburban rated) VHF-UHF antenna was giving him

major breakup in his attic. He had ghosts like crazy. I stuck a

ChannelMaster 4221 (the half-size brother of the 4228) up there

and I also slapped on a ChannelMaster 7777 preamp on there, since

attics typically cause a signal drop of 20 dB, and he was going to split

the signal 3 ways. So a CM 7777 preamp and the good directionality

almost caused his ghosts to vanish, and it got him a strong signal

to boot. Note: If you put the 4228 outside, do NOT buy an amplifier.

You'll have plenty of gain. And, the good directionality of the antenna

will get rid of the ghosts (if you can, check your analog channels).


Also, I also suspect the channel breakup, in part, is due to channels

that are at low power. Many stations are still at what is known as

"Special Temporary Authority" power, meaning they are at low power.

As of July 1, the "Big 4" networks will be at full power in your market,

so hang in there. Trees will also cause signal fade, but a high-gain

antenna will help fix that at your range.


Next, a big antenna will offer more directionality, but design helps a

ton. I am a HUGE fan of the CM 4228 antenna (have one in my attic),

but the AntennasDirect XG-91 comes highly recommended and is

very close to the performance of the 4228. If you still have ghosts

after you put up the 4228, I'd go with the XG-91. That's a REAL

directional antenna, from what I have read here. In the northwest

suburbs of Chicago, that's what you need because the building

orientation in downtown Chicago causes substantial multipath problems

north and especially northwest of the city.


Finally, one more thought. For those who think this is all a big hassle...

when you get it done, it will be well worth it. The dish folks can't match

over-the-air broadcast quality, and at least in Chicago, all of the digital

stations and HD broadcasts are received over-the-air by a Comcast antenna. If you do your intallation well, if the cable TV company

reception is out, you are not, unless the transmitter has been

destroyed, or the master control room fiber cable has a problem.

And, as stations broadcast in HD, you will get them long before

your cable company carries them (up to a year or more). Our UPN

affiliate in Chicago has been HD for 8 months now, and it isn't on

Comcast yet. There are exceptions to getting them on cable quickly

for Super Bowl games, but Veronica Mars just doesn't produce the

same sense of urgency to carry it as the Super Bowl. I wonder why? ;-)


I see antenna placement priorities as:


1. Make sure the cable is very good and connectors are on tight

2. Get the antenna outside

3. Get it up as high as possible

4. Get a big antenna, preferably get separate VHF/UHF antennas

diplexed (joined together) into a single coax lead-in. Combos are

fine for use under 50 miles with high-powered stations. If you want

long distance reception, separate antennas on the same pole/tower

are strongly recommended.


Anyway, best of wishes, and stay safe. Let us know what happens

after you get it up and running. Quarque or anyone else... am I off base here?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by AcidBath_
> *Hello! First post for me as I delve into trying to get a decent DTV signal on my 65" Mitsubishi.
> 
> Basically it has a built in HDTV tuner and I started off trying to pickup stations on my rabbit ears with mixed results.
> 
> So on a friends recommendation I bought a 'Silver Sensor' type. That worked OK, but we still had a lot of drop outs.
> 
> 
> So now I am going to get a Channel Master 4228 and try and end drop outs all together. I am only 13 miles from my tower and on flat land (NW Ohio for gods sake) but there are a lot of big trees near me.
> 
> 
> My question here is can I mount the 4228 to a TV antenna tower?
> 
> We already have a huge tower (pyramid style tubing up 40 ft or so) with a very old and crappy yagi style antenna on top.
> 
> It also does not feel very safe to go to high on said tower since it isn't anchored to the house all the well.
> 
> 
> So what I want to do is install the CM4228 as high up on the tower as possible and point it towards the tower.
> 
> 
> Will this work? Am I wasting my time? I rent the house so I am a bit hesitant to put holes in the roof installing a mast and there is no chimney.
> 
> 
> Just hoping for some help
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



It should be an improvement over what you have. As long as you're not using a preamp, you really can't have too much antenna. Multipath is likely your problem and the solution to that is narrower beamwidth. This means you need a bigger more directional antenna or you need to put up a horizontal stack. Using an attenuator will attenuate the multipath signals and allow the tuner to lock on easier and can also help if the 4228 doesn't solve it. Get the variable one from radio shack.


Go as high as you're comfortable going. The 4228 is fairly heavy and presents fairly high wind load but I'd imagine the tower can handle it at least half way up if it hasn't fallen yet. That one has to be ultimately up to you.


.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by AcidBath_
> *My question here is can I mount the 4228 to a TV antenna tower?
> 
> We already have a huge tower (pyramid style tubing up 40 ft or so) with a very old and crappy yagi style antenna on top.
> 
> It also does not feel very safe to go to high on said tower since it isn't anchored to the house all the well.*



You shouldn't have any problems mounting it to the tower.


It is likely that your tower is planted in 3-4' of concrete. It isn't going anywhere. Anchoring it to the house is a bad idea. That said, you could probably go up 20' and be fine with the 4228.


Forget about the attenuator at this point. You cannot overload a receiver with signal unless you use a preamplifier, even with the best antenna on the market and living right in front of the towers.


----------



## AcidBath

Wow, thank you for all the tips! The 4228 is already ordered and I should have it next week. So I'll put it up on the tower and report back.

Thanks again, you folks really know your stuff


----------



## AcidBath




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sebenste_
> 
> Also, I also suspect the channel breakup, in part, is due to channels
> 
> that are at low power. Many stations are still at what is known as
> 
> "Special Temporary Authority" power, meaning they are at low power.
> 
> As of July 1, the "Big 4" networks will be at full power in your market,
> 
> so hang in there.



sebenste - that is all new to me and something I find very interesting. How did you find out my market (Toledo, OH) was going to full power? I Google'd a bit and checked my local TV station websites but cannot find any info.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by AcidBath_
> *sebenste - that is all new to me and something I find very interesting. How did you find out my market (Toledo, OH) was going to full power? I Google'd a bit and checked my local TV station websites but cannot find any info.*



It's mandated by the FCC that digitals for FOX,ABC,NBC,CBS be at full power by July '05 in the top 100 DMA's. Toledo is # 69.

See http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/...tion.asp?m=tol 

for useful info on the stations in your area. Click on "complete FCC data" for the analog station and it will take you to both the digital and analog's info.


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *...
> 
> 
> You cannot overload a receiver with signal unless you use a preamplifier...*



I'm not sure I agree with that. In our area we have had several people close to the towers that could not get squat. Heavy attenuation was the only thing that solved the problem. In most cases the UHF analog was very clean so it did not look like multipath was the problem AND they were using a 4221 or similar with a much wider beamwidth than a 4228. Other AVS members who install antennas have talked about overload as a very real phenomenon. Perhaps the newer receivers have a higher threshold than the older ones - I'm not sure.


----------



## quarque

sebenste - I agree with most everything you said. A 4228 with an attenuator is a definite possibility and used by many folks with great results. It would not be my first choice at 13 miles, but since he already ordered one it is too late to debate that decision. I would have started with an attenuator inline with the SS to see what effect that has.


acidbath - post your nearest intersection and which stations are giving you trouble.


----------



## sdeweese

Below is from antenna web:

* red - uhf WLOS-DT 13.1 ABC ASHEVILLE NC 302° 11.4 56

* red - uhf WUNF-DT 33.1 PBS ASHEVILLE NC 302° 11.4 25

* red - uhf WHNS-DT 21.1 FOX ASHEVILLE NC 213° 13.0 57

* red - uhf WASV-DT 62.1 UPN ASHVILLE NC 176° 8.9 45

* violet - uhf WYFF-DT 4.1 NBC GREENVILLE SC 191° 16.6 59

I decided to start with a CM3016 because I could get it locally and I needed help with FM reception on the stereo as well. I am trying the antenna in the attic which limits the ability to aim. I can receive UPN and CBS (which doesn't show up on the list) but they tend to drop out. I have not added an amplifier at this point. I need some guidance for what to try next. I am getting great FM reception now and would like to maintain that. Is there a different antenna recommendation that will give better results and help with FM? Should I try amplifying first before resulting to mounting the antenna on the roof? I'm willing to put it outside but would like that as the last result. Currently I am running into a splitter with one feed going to the HD receiver and the other the FM antenna connection on the stereo. Is this approach correct?


Thanks,


Steve


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by quarque_
> *I'm not sure I agree with that. In our area we have had several people close to the towers that could not get squat. Heavy attenuation was the only thing that solved the problem. In most cases the UHF analog was very clean so it did not look like multipath was the problem AND they were using a 4221 or similar with a much wider beamwidth than a 4228. Other AVS members who install antennas have talked about overload as a very real phenomenon. Perhaps the newer receivers have a higher threshold than the older ones - I'm not sure.*



Again, I'm not an engineer, but people who know how to do the math have claimed that it would take somewhere around 45-50db of gain in order to overload a receiver. You can, however, overload a preamplifier with much less - simply because they can boost a signal that is already very strong over the top.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sdeweese_
> *Is there a different antenna recommendation that will give better results and help with FM? Should I try amplifying first before resulting to mounting the antenna on the roof? I'm willing to put it outside but would like that as the last result.*



I don't think an amplifier will help in your situation - you're too close to the towers. Multipath is probably the issue. You also have a wide spread of stations, which means a rotor would be ideal. I'd try a variable attenuator from Radio Shack first (you can return it if it doesn't make a difference) followed by an amplifier if you have to exhaust all possibilities, but ultimately you're going to need to go on the roof with a rotor to get rock-solid reception of those stations spread over nearly 180 degrees.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sregener_
> *...people who know how to do the math have claimed that it would take somewhere around 45-50db of gain in order to overload a receiver. You can, however, overload a preamplifier with much less - simply because they can boost a signal that is already very strong over the top.*



I commonly develop analog UHF signals levels of 30dBmV or more and DTV signal levels of 10 to 15dBmV using Winegard HA-9065s and Channel Master 4 bay bowties that only have about 10dB of gain, at distances of maybe two to five miles from the transmitting towers.


The only published figures from tuner manufacturers that I have seen for the upper limit of their DTV tuners input windows were all below 0dBmV. It therefore would not surprise me if the signal level that one develops from a full powered UHF DTV transmitter using a rooftop antenna in an urban reception situation would exceed the maximum input capability of the tuner and result in malfunction without using a preamp.


Even at a distance of twenty miles, a high gain (Winegard 28dB, Channel Master 26dB) preamp connected to a medium gain, directional antenna would develop an output level that would exceed the manufacturer's recommended upper limit and possibly overload the tuner.


----------



## sdeweese

Is there nothing to gain by going to a less directional antenna or will that just make the multi-path worse? I do have a lot of trees and the terrain is pretty hilly but we are near the top of a hill. I'll try the attenuator tonight and see if that helps. I can also do a temporary install on the back upper deck with manual rotation and see what that yields.


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sdeweese_
> *Is there nothing to gain by going to a less directional antenna or will that just make the multi-path worse? I do have a lot of trees and the terrain is pretty hilly but we are near the top of a hill. I'll try the attenuator tonight and see if that helps. I can also do a temporary install on the back upper deck with manual rotation and see what that yields.*



The only thing you gain with a less-directional antenna is the ability to pick up more towers that are spread over a wider area without having to use a rotor. But yes, it also means you pick up more reflected signals from the side. Variable attenuators are invaluable tools in solving the puzzle. For some they mean the difference between no HD (or lousy HD) and great HD. Since they also attenuate the reflected signals you may find a setting where the main signal is the only one recognized by the tuner. But when the reflected signals are nearly equal stength to the main signal you are in a sticky wicket (or similar phase for a difficult situation). There have been several people who gave up because they could not find the magic combination for their location. It takes lots of patience.


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by AntAltMike_
> *I commonly develop analog UHF signals levels of 30dBmV or more and DTV signal levels of 10 to 15dBmV using Winegard HA-9065s and Channel Master 4 bay bowties that only have about 10dB of gain, at distances of maybe two to five miles from the transmitting towers.
> 
> 
> The only published figures from tuner manufacturers that I have seen for the upper limit of their DTV tuners input windows were all below 0dBmV. It therefore would not surprise me if the signal level that one develops from a full powered UHF DTV transmitter using a rooftop antenna in an urban reception situation would exceed the maximum input capability of the tuner and result in malfunction without using a preamp.
> 
> 
> Even at a distance of twenty miles, a high gain (Winegard 28dB, Channel Master 26dB) preamp connected to a medium gain, directional antenna would develop an output level that would exceed the manufacturer's recommended upper limit and possibly overload the tuner.*



Mike - that seems to jive with what I've read and heard. Thanks for the detailed info.


----------



## sdeweese

I tried a temporary install outside on the back deck last night with little benefit. This location is about 10' lower than the attic location but gave me the ability to rotate the antenna for aim. I also added a variable attenuator into the run. I did manage to pick up an additional local (Fox) but never could get above a signal of 70 and had frequent drops. The best signal was achieved with the attenuator set at minimum. Strength would drop off if the attenuator was turned up.


I would much prefer to avoid going all the way to a rotor. Would there be any value going to a UHF antenna (4228?) and worrying about improving my FM reception with a separate antenna? All of my digitals are in the UHF band and fairly close.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by sdeweese_
> 
> I would much prefer to avoid going all the way to a rotor. Would there be any value going to a UHF antenna (4228?) and worrying about improving my FM reception with a separate antenna? All of my digitals are in the UHF band and fairly close.



If it were me the HD nut I admit to being, I'd treat FM reception as a separate issue. So I'd run not walk, in this case, to the Warren website and order for about $100 a 4228, a CM rotor, and for about $40 possibly a CM 3044 dist amp for a straight shot from my attic and I'd forget about an attenuator or a preamp.


If it turned out due to some strange anomaly in this hilly terrain I couldn't get good digital reception, I'd sadly ship said items back to Warren for a refund, being out only S&H.


----------



## djomaha

Wow. This all seems a bit overwhelming. Clearly I'm in the minority here, but I have no intention of putting an antenna on my roof or constructing a tower for one. In fact, I don't even want to get up in my attic. I guess I'm probably not going to get high definition programming for the time being because I just won't jump through these hoops to get local programming. If I can't use an indoor antenna, odds are I'll just wait until DirecTV gets local channels in HD.


And on that topic, I won't pay $300 for a HD box and I especially will not pay $1,000 for a HD TIVO box. And then they want $11 a month for 5 channels?? I think not.


Guess I'll be watching SD digital DirecTV until things get a little more reasonable.


----------



## bhchan

for what it's worth, in Irvine CA, I'm getting about 78% signal strength (according to the dishnetwork HD811 receiver) for 4 of the local HD/DTV channels, and 65% from KOCE and KCET (i think) just from a cheap Radio Shack non-amp'ed indoor antenna that looks like a triangle with a round hole in the middle and two rabbit ears.

So try a cheap ratshack rabbit ear and see if you get something before giving up.


----------



## djomaha




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by bhchan_
> *for what it's worth, in Irvine CA, I'm getting about 78% signal strength (according to the dishnetwork HD811 receiver) for 4 of the local HD/DTV channels, and 65% from KOCE and KCET (i think) just from a cheap Radio Shack non-amp'ed indoor antenna that looks like a triangle with a round hole in the middle and two rabbit ears.
> 
> So try a cheap ratshack rabbit ear and see if you get something before giving up.*



I appreciate the idea and I will probably give a few indoor antennas a try. I guess just reading this forum got me thinking I didn't stand a chance to bring any channels in, especially since I'm setting my plasma up in the basement. I am less than 15 miles from all the signals and 3 out of 5 are in yellow areas so I guess I'll give it a shot.


I'm still very disappointed in the lack of HD options though.


----------



## bhchan

FWIW, according to antennaweb, i'm in green and light green areas for half of the DTV list available, and red for others, in my immediate area... plug in Irvine, CA and you can compare.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by djomaha_
> *If I can't use an indoor antenna, odds are I'll just wait until DirecTV gets local channels in HD.*



If you can get a reasonably good picture on analog television using an indoor antenna (and this means things like a picture in color, with minimal or no ghosting) then you can expect to get a good digital picture as well. (Apples to apples comparison warning: don't compare analog VHF to digital UHF or vice versa. Compare UHF to UHF and VHF to VHF only, please.) To put it another way, if you can't make sense of the picture your antenna picks up on analog channels, why should a digital receiver be able to?


If you have a dish outside (which is kind of required for DirecTV) you can get the Winegard SquareShooter which really looks just about like a satellite dish, install it somewhere near your dish and you'll probably get great reception, since you're so close in.


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by djomaha_
> *...
> 
> I am less than 15 miles from all the signals and 3 out of 5 are in yellow areas so I guess I'll give it a shot.
> 
> ...
> *



There are MANY people who are further than 15 miles and doing fine with an indoor antenna. Success indoors is tricky but if you have the patience you may be surprised. The first 3 rules are: location, location, location.


The Zenith Silver Sensor is a very good indoor antenna and is sold at various retailers like Sears. Radio Shack has a little bowtie affair that works for some. It should npt take much of an antenna unless you have a building or forest in the way.


----------



## POWERFUL




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by quarque_
> *There are MANY people who are further than 15 miles and doing fine with an indoor antenna. Success indoors is tricky but if you have the patience you may be surprised. The first 3 rules are: location, location, location.*



Excellent point, I'm 35+ miles from the ESB and with the SS I get 4 out of the big 7. I'm not quite sure y I only get 4 when all big 7 broadcast from the ESB, but I suppose a real attic or outdoor antenna would probably grab it all. It's funny too bc the SS is only about 6' off the ground and on good days I get 70-80% on the 4 stations with 18-20dB. And that doesn't include a couple independent locals that broadcast here on LI. And one more thing watching 24 in HD is just jaw-dropping, especially when I realize I'm getting it in without any blips or dropouts with an antenna that looks as if it was made from molded plastic and recycled soda cans.


----------



## djomaha

So is the Silver Sensor that much better than the other similar antennas? I noticed Terk and Samsung make antennas that look almost identical. It probably doesn't matter because the SS is as cheap or cheaper than both of them.


----------



## Noah

Here's my antennaweb info:


* red - uhf KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN 6° 8.9 44

* red - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL MN 6° 8.9 50

* red - uhf KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 11° 8.8 34

* red - uhf KTCI-DT 17.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 11° 8.8 16

* red - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 11° 8.8 26

* red - uhf KMWB-DT 23.1 WB MINNEAPOLIS MN 6° 8.9 22

* red - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 6° 8.9 35

* red - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 UPN MINNEAPOLIS MN 11° 8.8 21

* red - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 6° 8.9 32


So I'm close but probably have lots of multipath issues. PBS, NBC, and CBS come in pretty solid. I've been tasked with recording the finale of 24 on FOX this Monday. Unfortunately, FOX breaks up every few seconds with the silver sensor, making it pretty much unwatchable/unrecordable.


Outdoors is probably not going to meet with household approval, but I could potentially get something into the attic, although I'm fairly clueless about running coax down to the appropriate areas. Something like the DB2 would be ideal, since I could tolerate its size/shape indoors, but I expect it wouldn't be directional enough.


I'm more seriously considering the CM4221 or the Winegard PR4400, but I'm very open to suggestions.


I'm also wondering about positioning. I could fit a relatively flat antenna like the CM4221 into a nearby closet on the first floor, but I can't imagine that would be ideal for anything but aesthetics. The DB2 I could hang in front of a north-facing window (still indoors). Other than that, I'm left with the attic or an in-room position. Ideally, I'd like to replace all my current indoor antennas, but that would require a VHF/UHF solution.


Ideas?


----------



## bhchan




> Quote:
> but I could potentially get something into the attic, although I'm fairly clueless about running coax down to the appropriate areas.



if you already have a coax running from the attic to the location you want to go (ie, cable or satellite coax already snaked) and just need an extra coax, you might be able to do something along the following lines to snake an extra coax down:


approximate the length of cabling you'll need and get 2 RG6's of that length + 25% extra leeway.


go to the attic, open the wallplate, if any, disconnect the existing coax, ducttape one end of each of the two new cables to it. make sure the tape is firm. try to give it a little bit of taper so that it's like a little wedge that won't get caught on anything. secure the other ends of the new cables so you don't accidentally let it slip into the wall.










(another way is to connect one of the new coax to the old one using a female-female connector, and duct tape the second coax to it)


go down to the room, and slowly pull the existing coax out. The two new cables will follow along and hopefully at some point, emerge.


get one of those two-coax termination wall plates to make it look nice.


----------



## Noah

I wish there were even a scrap of coax running through this house.










Unfortunately, its never been wired for cable, satellite, or OTA. The only thing running through the attic is power. There aren't even lights up there so I have a major girly-man moment every time I have to go in there. I'm thinking I could get something down into the basement from there and then back up into the rooms I want to wire...I'm just not quite sure how that would happen.


----------



## bhchan

wish I could help, but i'm reaching the limits of my HGTV-based knowledge.







(I don't get DIYtv unfortunately)


you might be able to drop & fish cabling from the attic down at least one level but it'll depend on how your house was built.


mine two-story is from the 70's and with most of my ceiling cathedral-style, I basically have no attic to speak of, which meant that except for the master and 2nd bedroom, all other cable had to come through an outside wall.









(most homes in southern california lack a basement)



You might be able to push the cable out a vent from the attic, try to discretely hide it from the side of your house and run it down to your basement... and then from the basement, have access to your first floor walls. The second floor (if you have one), you might be able to drop wires from the attic already.


----------



## holl_ands

Three are those who grab a drill and just do it...

Then there are those who grab a pen and write a check....


----------



## rgathright

I am wanting to move from New Orleans to Southern Mississippi. The main thing holding me back is my OTA HD reception that I must have. Per antennaorg the towers from the houses we are looking at are 50 miles away (violet colored). I already have a CM 4228 and it is rated up to 60 miles, but will it actually work from that distance? I am aware that the antenna will be put on the roof and the real estate person is aware of this also. My question is the CM 4228 the best antenna now as it was 3 years ago when I bought it? If not what are my other options? My wife really wants to get out of New Orleans and closer to the beaches of Mississippi.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by rgathright_
> *I am wanting to move from New Orleans to Southern Mississippi. The main thing holding me back is my OTA HD reception that I must have. Per antennaorg the towers from the houses we are looking at are 50 miles away (violet colored). I already have a CM 4228 and it is rated up to 60 miles, but will it actually work from that distance? I am aware that the antenna will be put on the roof and the real estate person is aware of this also. My question is the CM 4228 the best antenna now as it was 3 years ago when I bought it? If not what are my other options? My wife really wants to get out of New Orleans and closer to the beaches of Mississippi.*



Not that much has changed in 3 years. Receivers have gotten better. At 50 miles, the 4228 should be o.k. assuming your stations are at full power. To get significantly better, you'd have to consider antenna stacking so I'd see what you get with the 4228 first if I were you. I'm assuming you will use a good preamp as well such as the CM 777x series.


----------



## bhchan




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by holl_ands_
> *Three are those who grab a drill and just do it...
> 
> Then there are those who grab a pen and write a check....*



there are also those who order cable/satellite/whatever with free basic installation and tip the installer for a better install.


----------



## AntAltMike

Those who can, do.

Those who can't, teach.

Those who can't teach, teach gym class.

Those who can't teach gym class, install antennas.


----------



## rgathright




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *Not that much has changed in 3 years. Receivers have gotten better. At 50 miles, the 4228 should be o.k. assuming your stations are at full power. To get significantly better, you'd have to consider antenna stacking so I'd see what you get with the 4228 first if I were you. I'm assuming you will use a good preamp as well such as the CM 777x series.*



Yep - I have the CM 7777 pre-amp.


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by AntAltMike_
> *Those who can, do.
> 
> Those who can't, teach.
> 
> Those who can't teach, teach gym class.
> 
> Those who can't teach gym class, install antennas.*



So if you can't install antennas you are a useless carbon-based lifeform?


----------



## Noah




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by Noah_
> *Here's my antennaweb info:
> 
> 
> * red - uhf KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN 6° 8.9 44
> 
> * red - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL MN 6° 8.9 50
> 
> * red - uhf KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 11° 8.8 34
> 
> * red - uhf KTCI-DT 17.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 11° 8.8 16
> 
> * red - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 11° 8.8 26
> 
> * red - uhf KMWB-DT 23.1 WB MINNEAPOLIS MN 6° 8.9 22
> 
> * red - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 6° 8.9 35
> 
> * red - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 UPN MINNEAPOLIS MN 11° 8.8 21
> 
> * red - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 6° 8.9 32
> 
> 
> So I'm close but probably have lots of multipath issues. PBS, NBC, and CBS come in pretty solid. I've been tasked with recording the finale of 24 on FOX this Monday. Unfortunately, FOX breaks up every few seconds with the silver sensor, making it pretty much unwatchable/unrecordable.
> 
> 
> Outdoors is probably not going to meet with household approval, but I could potentially get something into the attic, although I'm fairly clueless about running coax down to the appropriate areas. Something like the DB2 would be ideal, since I could tolerate its size/shape indoors, but I expect it wouldn't be directional enough.
> 
> 
> I'm more seriously considering the CM4221 or the Winegard PR4400, but I'm very open to suggestions.
> 
> 
> I'm also wondering about positioning. I could fit a relatively flat antenna like the CM4221 into a nearby closet on the first floor, but I can't imagine that would be ideal for anything but aesthetics. The DB2 I could hang in front of a north-facing window (still indoors). Other than that, I'm left with the attic or an in-room position. Ideally, I'd like to replace all my current indoor antennas, but that would require a VHF/UHF solution.
> 
> 
> Ideas?*



Can anyone point me in the right direction on picking an antenna? Just put aside the other issues and assume (like I am) that I can get it installed somewhere workable...


----------



## Jim1348

I would just get a Channel Master CM 4221A 4-Bay Bowtie UHF Antenna.


----------



## etcarroll

Head over to ***************, antenna forum, read posts by Tigerbangs, he walked me through process, I'm now very happy with an CM 4228.


But I wasn't looking for uhf/vhf as you appear to be, so 4221 wont cut it either.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by etcarroll_
> *
> 
> But I wasn't looking for uhf/vhf as you appear to be, so 4221 wont cut it either.*



All his/her channels are UHF. The 4221 outside should be more than adequate. It probably would work in the attic as well at that distance (9mi.).


The 4221 (and the 4228 for that matter) have moderate gain for VHF channels 9-13 as well. Low band (2-6) or channels 7,8 often will require a separate VHF antenna.


----------



## etcarroll




> Quote:
> _Originally posted by cpcat_
> *All his/her channels are UHF. The 4221 outside should be more than adequate. It probably would work in the attic as well at that distance (9mi.).
> 
> 
> The 4221 (and the 4228 for that matter) have moderate gain for VHF channels 9-13 as well. Low band (2-6) or channels 7,8 often will require a separate VHF antenna.*



I was about to say same as you, till I saw the following last line in his post -


"Ideally, I'd like to replace all my current indoor antennas, but that would require a VHF/UHF solution"


----------



## dapack5

i have been reading in alot of places that HDTV stations are required to be full power by July: what is full power considered to be and will that not affect the selecting of an outside antenna?

thanks


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dapack5* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> i have been reading in alot of places that HDTV stations are required to be full power by July: what is full power considered to be and will that not affect the selecting of an outside antenna?



In the top 100 markets, the "Big 4" (i.e. ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox) are required to have significant coverage by 7/1/05. If they are keeping their current digital channel after the analog shutoff, they are required to be at 100%. This should yield coverage nearly identical to their analog coverage under most circumstances. If they are reverting to their analog channel number after the conversion, they have to cover 80% of their market, which most can do with 50kw on UHF.


All other stations, regardless of market size, are required to be at similar power levels by 7/1/06.


Stations can apply for one six-month extension due to hardships beyond their control, but they have to demonstrate they have done everything possible to meet the deadling (orders made with sufficient lead time, installs scheduled, etc.) Failing to plan for 7/1 is not sufficient hardship.


Stations that fail to meet the deadline will be "locked" at their current power levels until the digital transition is completely over. They might be able to apply for greater power, but their uncovered areas will not be protected from interference from other stations (and other stations would have priority in the event of a conflict.)


----------



## milehighmike

Don't you mean 7/1/05 for the top 100 markets?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *milehighmike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Don't you mean 7/1/05 for the top 100 markets?



Yes, of course. Edited to correct.


----------



## j_buckingham80




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In the top 100 markets, the "Big 4" (i.e. ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox) are required to have significant coverage by 7/1/05. If they are keeping their current digital channel after the analog shutoff, they are required to be at 100%. This should yield coverage nearly identical to their analog coverage under most circumstances. If they are reverting to their analog channel number after the conversion, they have to cover 80% of their market, which most can do with 50kw on UHF.



Unfortunately, out in the Bay Area (S.F./Oakland/San Jose), the Digital Sutro channels are on a lower part of the tower than the analogs. As a result, signals don't really pass over the Oakland Hills, leaving people like my parents, living in Walnut Creek, and pretty much all of Pleasanton, and large portions of the East Bay without DTV reception.


----------



## DrkWtsn

here is my antenna web info...

outside antenna is def an option i am willing to look into..

any recomendations?



red - uhf WMPT 22 PBS ANNAPOLIS MD 8° 31.8 22

* blue - uhf WMPT-DT 22.2 PBS ANNAPOLIS MD 8° 31.8 42

blue - uhf WDCA 20 UPN WASHINGTON DC 326° 40.1 20

blue - uhf WETA 26 PBS WASHINGTON DC 326° 40.1 26

blue - vhf WJLA 7 ABC WASHINGTON DC 327° 38.5 7

blue - uhf WBFF 45 FOX BALTIMORE MD 7° 54.4 45

blue - uhf WBDC 50 WB WASHINGTON DC 331° 37.2 50

blue - vhf WUSA 9 CBS WASHINGTON DC 327° 38.5 9

* blue - uhf WUSA-DT 9.1 CBS WASHINGTON DC 327° 38.5 34

blue - uhf WUTB 24 UPN BALTIMORE MD 0° 51.9 24

blue - uhf WFDC 14 TFA ARLINGTON VA 326° 38.1 14

blue - vhf WTTG 5 FOX WASHINGTON DC 327° 38.9 5

blue - uhf WNUV 54 WB BALTIMORE MD 0° 51.9 54

blue - uhf WHUT 32 PBS WASHINGTON DC 326° 40.1 32

violet - vhf WMAR 2 ABC BALTIMORE MD 7° 54.4 2

violet - uhf WMDT 47 ABC SALISBURY MD 105° 45.9 47

violet - uhf WMPB 67 PBS BALTIMORE MD 1° 63.1 67

violet - uhf WNVC 56 IND FAIRFAX VA 314° 41.2 56

violet - vhf WJZ 13 CBS BALTIMORE MD 7° 54.4 13

violet - uhf WZDC-LP 64 TEL ARLINGTON VA 331° 37.2 64

violet - uhf WUPV 65 UPN ASHLAND VA 224° 66.7 65

* violet - uhf WTTG-DT 5.1 FOX WASHINGTON DC 327° 38.9 36

violet - vhf WRC 4 NBC WASHINGTON DC 326° 38.1 4

* violet - uhf WRC-DT 4.1 NBC WASHINGTON DC 326° 38.1 48

violet - uhf WPXW 66 PAX MANASSAS VA 303° 43.5 66

* violet - uhf WBDC-DT 50.1 WB WASHINGTON DC 331° 37.2 51

violet - uhf WBOC 16 CBS SALISBURY MD 104° 50.8 16

* violet - uhf WJLA-DT 7.1 ABC WASHINGTON DC 327° 38.5 39

violet - uhf WCPB 28 PBS SALISBURY MD 112° 54.7 28

violet - vhf WBAL 11 NBC BALTIMORE MD 7° 54.4 11

violet - uhf WFPT 62 PBS FREDERICK MD 333° 65.9 62


----------



## Bill Johnson

DrkWtsn,

CM 4228 and CM rotor and try the attic first for esthetic and weather reasons.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DrkWtsn* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> here is my antenna web info...
> 
> outside antenna is def an option i am willing to look into..
> 
> any recomendations?
> 
> 
> 
> red - uhf WMPT 22 PBS ANNAPOLIS MD 8° 31.8 22
> 
> * blue - uhf WMPT-DT 22.2 PBS ANNAPOLIS MD 8° 31.8 42
> 
> blue - uhf WDCA 20 UPN WASHINGTON DC 326° 40.1 20
> 
> blue - uhf WETA 26 PBS WASHINGTON DC 326° 40.1 26
> 
> blue - vhf WJLA 7 ABC WASHINGTON DC 327° 38.5 7
> 
> blue - uhf WBFF 45 FOX BALTIMORE MD 7° 54.4 45
> 
> blue - uhf WBDC 50 WB WASHINGTON DC 331° 37.2 50
> 
> blue - vhf WUSA 9 CBS WASHINGTON DC 327° 38.5 9
> 
> * blue - uhf WUSA-DT 9.1 CBS WASHINGTON DC 327° 38.5 34
> 
> blue - uhf WUTB 24 UPN BALTIMORE MD 0° 51.9 24
> 
> blue - uhf WFDC 14 TFA ARLINGTON VA 326° 38.1 14
> 
> blue - vhf WTTG 5 FOX WASHINGTON DC 327° 38.9 5
> 
> blue - uhf WNUV 54 WB BALTIMORE MD 0° 51.9 54
> 
> blue - uhf WHUT 32 PBS WASHINGTON DC 326° 40.1 32
> 
> violet - vhf WMAR 2 ABC BALTIMORE MD 7° 54.4 2
> 
> violet - uhf WMDT 47 ABC SALISBURY MD 105° 45.9 47
> 
> violet - uhf WMPB 67 PBS BALTIMORE MD 1° 63.1 67
> 
> violet - uhf WNVC 56 IND FAIRFAX VA 314° 41.2 56
> 
> violet - vhf WJZ 13 CBS BALTIMORE MD 7° 54.4 13
> 
> violet - uhf WZDC-LP 64 TEL ARLINGTON VA 331° 37.2 64
> 
> violet - uhf WUPV 65 UPN ASHLAND VA 224° 66.7 65
> 
> * violet - uhf WTTG-DT 5.1 FOX WASHINGTON DC 327° 38.9 36
> 
> violet - vhf WRC 4 NBC WASHINGTON DC 326° 38.1 4
> 
> * violet - uhf WRC-DT 4.1 NBC WASHINGTON DC 326° 38.1 48
> 
> violet - uhf WPXW 66 PAX MANASSAS VA 303° 43.5 66
> 
> * violet - uhf WBDC-DT 50.1 WB WASHINGTON DC 331° 37.2 51
> 
> violet - uhf WBOC 16 CBS SALISBURY MD 104° 50.8 16
> 
> * violet - uhf WJLA-DT 7.1 ABC WASHINGTON DC 327° 38.5 39
> 
> violet - uhf WCPB 28 PBS SALISBURY MD 112° 54.7 28
> 
> violet - vhf WBAL 11 NBC BALTIMORE MD 7° 54.4 11
> 
> violet - uhf WFPT 62 PBS FREDERICK MD 333° 65.9 62



If you want a shot at all of those, you'll have to go with a large vhf/uhf combo on a rotor (Winegard 8200p, CM 3671) and a CM 7777 preamp. You can get better performance from separates though. If you're willing to give up low band vhf (2-6), consider the Antennasdirect XG91 for UHF and Antennacraft Y107-13 for high band (7-13). These are small enough so you could put them both on the rotator spaced at least 48 inches apart. You *could* use a full band vhf like the Wade/

Delhi VIP 306 or Antennacraft CS 900 or 3BG22 on the bottom but that may be pushing the limits of your rotor. If you fix the VHF section below the rotor, obviously you could go as big as you like but you won't have the luxury of rotating for VHF. The CM 4228 for UHF is a good choice but will be high loading on the rotor.


The CM 7777 has separate VHF and UHF inputs if you go with separates, and a "combined" input if you don't. Make sure the internal switches are set correctly.


I wouldn't waste time in your attic.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DrkWtsn* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> here is my antenna web info...
> 
> outside antenna is def an option i am willing to look into..
> 
> any recomendations?



If you want the analogs, you'll need both a UHF and VHF antenna. Otherwise, a UHF-only will serve you well.


For violet areas, you'll want as good an antenna as you can get, mounted outside as high as you can go. Since your closest station is over 30 miles away, a preamp is a great idea as well. Check into the Channel Master 7777, as it's a top performer.


----------



## midblue

I just moved into a new apartment about 15 miles south of Boston, and I was expecting reception to be great, however, I'm having some major troubles getting a solid signal. The main problem is that my apartment faces south and there is no feasible way to get a north-facing antenna mounted. Also, I'm on the ground floor, and about 50 feet from the south side is a forest, so I'd expect that I'm getting hit by multipathing as well. I've tried a few antennas so far: the Winegard Squareshooter, a Silver Sensor, and a couple RCA indoor antennas with preamps (I have access to a Best Buy discount, so that's the reason behind those selections). I've tried all the windows and everywhere within the apartment, I can't get consistent reception on all stations - it seems like even if I lock on to some of them, one or two of them always has completely inconsistent reception (jumping between 10-80%). It's starting to look like I'm going to have to mount something outside, which I was hoping to avoid. Does anyone have any suggestions on what to do in a situation like this? Do I have any indoor antenna choices that could work, and if outdoor mounting really would be the best for me, what should I use? Should I be using directional antennas since I can't really point them directly at the station?


I've included my antennaweb data for reference, and I'm using a MyHD MDP-120 for tuning. Thanks in advance for any tips!


* yellow - uhf WSBK-DT 38.1 UPN BOSTON MA 342° 12.0 39

* yellow - uhf WFXT-DT 25.1 FOX BOSTON MA 345° 11.1 31

* yellow - uhf WGBH-DT 2.1 PBS BOSTON MA 342° 12.0 19

* yellow - uhf WGBX-DT 44.1 PBS BOSTON MA 342° 12.0 43

* yellow - uhf WBZ-DT 4.1 CBS BOSTON MA 342° 12.0 30

* yellow - uhf WBPX-DT 68.1 PAX BOSTON MA 344° 11.5 32

* yellow - uhf WCVB-DT 5.1 ABC BOSTON MA 342° 12.0 20

* yellow - uhf WHDH-DT 7.1 NBC BOSTON MA 346° 11.5 42

* green - uhf WLVI-DT 56.1 WB CAMBRIDGE MA 345° 11.1 41


----------



## DrkWtsn




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you want the analogs, you'll need both a UHF and VHF antenna. Otherwise, a UHF-only will serve you well.
> 
> 
> For violet areas, you'll want as good an antenna as you can get, mounted outside as high as you can go. Since your closest station is over 30 miles away, a preamp is a great idea as well. Check into the Channel Master 7777, as it's a top performer.




I have cable for the analog.. all i want is the digital channels (hdtv)

thanks everyone


----------



## brianmf

Since this seems to be the thread for antenna recommendations, I will ask for help here. I'm hoping I don't annoy anyone with another mindless post. Here goes.


My location:

900 S. Kansas Ave.

Hastings, NE 68901


AntennaWeb results:

red - uhf KTVG 17 FOX GRAND ISLAND NE 312° 14.4 17

* red - uhf KGIN-DT 11.1 CBS GRAND ISLAND NE 266° 21.9 32

red - vhf KHAS 5 NBC HASTINGS NE 355° 5.4 5

red - uhf KHNE 29 PBS HASTINGS NE 42° 20.7 29

* red - uhf KHNE-DT 28.1 PBS HASTINGS NE 42° 20.8 28

blue - vhf KGIN 11 CBS GRAND ISLAND NE 267° 21.9 11

* blue - uhf KHAS-DT 5.1 NBC HASTINGS NE 355° 5.4 21

blue - vhf KHGI 13 ABC KEARNEY NE 277° 25.0 13

* blue - uhf KHGI-DT 13.1 ABC KEARNEY NE 277° 25.4 36

* blue - uhf KTVG-DT 17.1 FOX GRAND ISLAND NE 312° 14.4 19


If anyone uses the antennaweb site for my address, I don't care about the last 4 channels on the list.


Current antenna is an outdoor VHF/UHF Radioshack job, fairly large, and thanks to the recent hailstorm that rolled through town, in pretty bad shape. Currently, no amps are used in the system, which is split in various places to support ~8 tuners (some tv sets/vcrs, some tuner cards in PCs.)


Requirements for the new antenna system: needs VHF and UHF, no rotors (someone would always complain with the number of tuners on the system,) also, because of strong reception on 5, amping the signals may be problematic. OTOH, with as many times as it is split and the cable lenghts involved (longest run is 150'+, possibly 200'), an amp may cause no trouble at all.


I am currently thinking that a regular combo antenna of decent size could be combined with a UHF only antenna using a jointenna. The combo job would (theoretically) recieve most of the stations and the UHF would recieve 28 and 29. I suppose an amp somewhere in that mix would be beneficial.


Whew, well thanks to anyone who took the time to read all that! Any and all suggestions/thoughts greatly appreciated.


Brian


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *brianmf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I suppose an amp somewhere in that mix would be beneficial.



Unless you have local considerations (low terrain, trees) I would avoid an amplifier. Generally, these aren't useful until 30+ miles away. Inside of that, they can do much more harm than good, and since you have so many close, strong signals, it is unlikely that a preamplifier would do much for you.


----------



## Cornhustler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *brianmf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Requirements for the new antenna system: needs VHF and UHF, no rotors (someone would always complain with the number of tuners on the system,) also, because of strong reception on 5, amping the signals may be problematic. OTOH, with as many times as it is split and the cable lenghts involved (longest run is 150'+, possibly 200'), an amp may cause no trouble at all.
> 
> 
> I am currently thinking that a regular combo antenna of decent size could be combined with a UHF only antenna using a jointenna. The combo job would (theoretically) recieve most of the stations and the UHF would recieve 28 and 29. I suppose an amp somewhere in that mix would be beneficial.
> 
> 
> Whew, well thanks to anyone who took the time to read all that! Any and all suggestions/thoughts greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> Brian



Brian


I live in Kearney and can receive all the stations listed with one antenna. Fortunately my location allows me to point in one general direction and receive an acceptable signal from all of them. (including 21 @1.355 KW at 39 miles away!) I would not be able to receive all of them without an amplifier. Your location is not as antenna friendly. One thing to remember is that if you want to receive the digital signal from 5(21), 13(36) and 17(19) is that they are not broadcasting at full power. Channels 11(32) and 29(28) are broadcasting with a much stronger signal and will be much easier to receive. I am using an amplifier without any overloading problems. There is one catch though. It is a Winegard AP-8700 which is a "medium" power amp. I tried an AP-8275 which is a "high" power amp and had overload problems. I live about 13 miles from the 13 tower and 17 miles from the 11 tower. I really think that if you want to receive solid UHF signals you will want to use a medium power low noise amplifier of some kind, especially with that kind of cable length. I actually enjoy watching channel 5 now that the interference is gone! I made a map that shows tower heights and power as well as distance to your place. I think your plan to use two antennae with a jointenna is a worthy one. One other thing, make sure you turn in any damaged equipment to your insurance company to help pay for some new equipment.


----------



## dapack5

how can a person find out what their local digital channels are broadcasting at as far as power wise? i.e. 20kw,30kw or 50kw


edited to say Ft Myers,Fl. locals for example


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dapack5* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> how can a person find out what their local digital channels are broadcasting at as far as power wise? i.e. 20kw,30kw or 50kw



Spend some time here:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html 


Type in the call letters of a station. Select "TV Query (detailed output +CDBS links)". Look for a digital record that indicates "licensed." If none exist, it is probably the highest-powered one listed as an STA.


Or you could email the engineers at the stations you're interested in.


Checking your local market thread and asking there is also a good idea, as there are probably dozens of regulars who know the answer and will share it if asked.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dapack5* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> how can a person find out what their local digital channels are broadcasting at as far as power wise? i.e. 20kw,30kw or 50kw
> 
> 
> edited to say Ft Myers,Fl. locals for example



For Ft. Myers: http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/...tion.asp?m=for 


Click on "complete FCC data" for the analog station and it will give you all the available info for both the digital and analog station. Stations with "special temporary authority" have the option of being at lower power still. To know for sure, though, you need word from someone at the station. Many are at full power and still have STA's listed.


----------



## dapack5




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For Ft. Myers: http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/...tion.asp?m=for
> 
> 
> Click on "complete FCC data" for the analog station and it will give you all the available info for both the digital and analog station. Stations with "special temporary authority" have the option of being at lower power still. To know for sure, though, you need word from someone at the station. Many are at full power and still have STA's listed.




thanks that's what i was looking for


----------



## we7313

I had an antena profesionally installed in my Addict and seem to get reception pretty well. But on some days its just terrible. I think I'm going to have to call him back out. He usually brings his own hd box to test the signal.


Is there a better software tool than MCE to measure my actual signal strength? The 5 bars seem pretty useless. I also notice they change every time a scan finishes. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.


----------



## rodoug

Hi,

I'm not sure I know how to do this but I need help. We live in an outlying area (Copper Canyon, TX 75077)and have always had a roof top antenna (short one story roof). We are getting a new antenna and also are getting an HDTV. We have no idea what antenna to get to allow good HD reception. We live pretty far (I think) from the stations. The antenna web results were as follows:


* red - uhf KMPX-DT 30.1 DAY DECATUR TX 140° 17.8 30

* blue - uhf KLDT-DT 55.1 IND LAKE DALLAS TX 125° 8.5 54

* blue - uhf KDAF-DT 33.1 WB DALLAS TX 163° 38.2 32

* blue - uhf KERA-DT 14.1 PBS DALLAS TX 161° 35.9 14

* blue - uhf KDFW-DT 4.1 FOX DALLAS TX 163° 35.2 35

* blue - uhf KXAS-DT 5.1 NBC FORT WORTH TX 162° 35.3 41

* blue - uhf KXTX-DT 40.1 TEL DALLAS TX 162° 35.3 40

* blue - uhf KTVT-DT 11.1 CBS FORT WORTH TX 161° 35.9 19

* violet - uhf KTXA-DT 21.1 UPN FORT WORTH TX 163° 38.2 18

* violet - vhf WFAA-DT 8.1 ABC DALLAS TX 163° 35.2 9

* violet - uhf KUVN-DT 23.1 UNI GARLAND TX 163° 35.0 24

* violet - uhf KDTN-DT 2.1 DAY DENTON TX 163° 38.2 43

* violet - uhf KPXD-DT 68.1 PAX ARLINGTON TX 163° 34.9 42

* violet - uhf KSTR-DT 49.1 UNI IRVING TX 163° 38.2 48

* violet - uhf KFWD-DT 52.1 IND FORT WORTH TX 162° 35.0 51


We are so confused by all the options. Could someone give us an idea of what might work for us. We don't have power to where the antenna would be located so I don't think we can have a rotor. We also will several (3 or 4) TV's and have installed RG6 wire to the TV locations.


Thanks tons for any help!!!!

Robin


----------



## blackngold19




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rodoug* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'm not sure I know how to do this but I need help. We live in an outlying area (Copper Canyon, TX 75077)and have always had a roof top antenna (short one story roof). We are getting a new antenna and also are getting an HDTV. We have no idea what antenna to get to allow good HD reception. We live pretty far (I think) from the stations. The antenna web results were as follows:
> 
> 
> * red - uhf KMPX-DT 30.1 DAY DECATUR TX 140° 17.8 30
> 
> * blue - uhf KLDT-DT 55.1 IND LAKE DALLAS TX 125° 8.5 54
> 
> * blue - uhf KDAF-DT 33.1 WB DALLAS TX 163° 38.2 32
> 
> * blue - uhf KERA-DT 14.1 PBS DALLAS TX 161° 35.9 14
> 
> * blue - uhf KDFW-DT 4.1 FOX DALLAS TX 163° 35.2 35
> 
> * blue - uhf KXAS-DT 5.1 NBC FORT WORTH TX 162° 35.3 41
> 
> * blue - uhf KXTX-DT 40.1 TEL DALLAS TX 162° 35.3 40
> 
> * blue - uhf KTVT-DT 11.1 CBS FORT WORTH TX 161° 35.9 19
> 
> * violet - uhf KTXA-DT 21.1 UPN FORT WORTH TX 163° 38.2 18
> 
> * violet - vhf WFAA-DT 8.1 ABC DALLAS TX 163° 35.2 9
> 
> * violet - uhf KUVN-DT 23.1 UNI GARLAND TX 163° 35.0 24
> 
> * violet - uhf KDTN-DT 2.1 DAY DENTON TX 163° 38.2 43
> 
> * violet - uhf KPXD-DT 68.1 PAX ARLINGTON TX 163° 34.9 42
> 
> * violet - uhf KSTR-DT 49.1 UNI IRVING TX 163° 38.2 48
> 
> * violet - uhf KFWD-DT 52.1 IND FORT WORTH TX 162° 35.0 51
> 
> 
> We are so confused by all the options. Could someone give us an idea of what might work for us. We don't have power to where the antenna would be located so I don't think we can have a rotor. We also will several (3 or 4) TV's and have installed RG6 wire to the TV locations.
> 
> 
> Thanks tons for any help!!!!
> 
> Robin



ChannelMaster 4228 UHF 8 BAY BOWTIE with PREAMP. If that doesn't work, I don't know what else would.


----------



## Rack




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *blackngold19* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ChannelMaster 4228 UHF 8 BAY BOWTIE with PREAMP. If that doesn't work, I don't know what else would.



Seems like a good suggestion. You might need something else for Channel 9. There's a nice Funke VHF-hi yagi-corner reflector around if you need it, but you might be okay with the CM4228's VHF-hi gain as is:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 

Around 3dBd, that should be enough.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rodoug* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> We live in an outlying area (Copper Canyon, TX 75077)and have always had a roof top antenna (short one story roof). We are getting a new antenna and also are getting an HDTV. We have no idea what antenna to get to allow good HD reception.



Why are you getting a new antenna? Is the old one not working well? HD uses the exact same frequencies as analog, so if you're getting good UHF (almost all your digital stations use UHF) reception now, you already have what you need.


The 4228 isn't a bad choice for a fixed install (i.e. not with a rotor) but I think the 4221 might be a slightly better choice. While most of your stations are at 162-163 degrees, a few are off-axis enough that the 4228 might be a touch too directional to get a good signal.


35-40 miles isn't "way out." I'm "way out" at 75 miles, and I still get good reception a lot of the time. At 40 miles, any quality "fringe" UHF/VHF antenna should work great. I used a Winegard HD7084P on my roof for a couple of years (single story) and anything inside of 50 miles was easy to get, in spite of my being below average grade and blocked by trees.


I'd caution against getting the preamplifier until after the antenna is up - they solve one very specific problem - weak signal (snow on analogs) - but can cause lots of problems if that very specific problem isn't your issue (and it probably won't be.)


As for power for a rotor - they use a special three-strand cable from the outdoor box to the indoor unit that supplies the power and controls the rotor - no need for electricity outside.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *blackngold19* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ChannelMaster 4228 UHF 8 BAY BOWTIE with PREAMP. If that doesn't work, I don't know what else would.



He'd better be cautious about preamp overload with that full power analog only 8 miles away. I'd go without the preamp first then add maybe a low gain preamp or even a distribution amp if needed later.


----------



## plumeria

Agreed - the preamp (7777) I used with the CM 4228 for a transmitter 9 miles away overloaded the receiver and my picture went from ocassional breakups to non-existent with "No Signal" being displayed. It can make things much worse ;(



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> He'd better be cautious about preamp overload with that full power analog only 8 miles away. I'd go without the preamp first then add maybe a low gain preamp or even a distribution amp if needed later.


----------



## ericdwong




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ericdwong* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ok here it is: Pic of my setup. In a nutshell, the main mast is a piece of fence posting. It is supported by concrete in the ground, as well as the chimey straps. The rotator is mounted about 1/2 way down the chimney. I'm also using 2 rotator bearings so the majority of the mast has the 2 masts running side by side. The top rotator bearing is guyed to the house.
> 
> 
> From the pic you can see the VHF only is at the bottom, the dish looking UHF is at the top and the FM only is at the very top. I wonder if these are too close to each other even though they're all running different frequencies. Right now I'm running no preamp, but do have a radio shack 4 way distribuation amp to help drive the signal through out the house.
> 
> 
> I plan to probably ditch the channel master dish looking UHF and try out one of those Yagi style ones.
> 
> 
> So far this stack has survived 10 years from everything such as icing in the inter as well as Tropical Storm Isabel last year.
> 
> 
> I have no complaints about the FM or the VHF, but the UHF has something to be desired. I'm looking for any type of advice, good or bad.
> 
> 
> I should mention that right now I am only using analog TV. Hopefully today, my dish 811 will arrive so I can try out digital TV. Also, according to the antenna web, I'm sort of on a side of a hill but I think my main (baltimore) stations I watch are just grazing the side of that hill. I think this hill is what is causing some multipath (or blocking some of the UHF altogether) especially in the UHF.
> 
> 
> I'd like to get an elevation (what kind of map is that called?) so I can do some better calculations/drawings.





Hey all, I can't believe its been 6 months since I posted this last. Anyway, its now great weather here in the mid-atlantic so I can do my outdoor projects once again.


Heres what I'm planning to do. I'm going to rent a cherry-picker and loose that huge dish looking antenna. Add a pre-amp mainly for the UHF. Probably keep the existing VHF and the FM. I'd like to keep them on the same stack. A previous posted indicated my antennas were too close. How far away should they be positioned away from each other to minimize interference?


I'm probably going to get the Antennas direct 91XG http://www.antennasdirect.com/91XG_HDTV_antenna.html







as the TV reception takes #1 priority over what it looks like.


So the main questions-- how far away should the UHF be from the other 2 antennas, and #2, is there a recommended preamp, preferably a UHF/VHF combiner preamp- I am looking at the Channel Master 7777 preamp...


----------



## brianmf

If you want to amp only UHF, look into the Winegard preamps. I think that the Channel Master UHF preamp blocks VHF. Winegard makes a preamp that boosts UHF while combining it with (unamped) VHF signals. I don't know if you are wanting to amp both as the post you quoted seemed to indicate that only the UHF band needed help. Also, sregener brings up a good point, in that adding a preamp won't help multipath problems.


----------



## Neil L

Eric,


Isn't that parabolic UHF antenna about the highest gain model that has even been built. I don't think anything currently on the market, including the 91XG has as much forward gain. If weak signals are your problem, I think I would be keeping the parabolic antenna.


----------



## plumeria




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *brianmf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think that the Channel Master UHF preamp blocks VHF. Winegard makes a preamp that boosts UHF while combining it with (unamped) VHF signals.



Not quite correct - see link from
http://www.signalelectronics.com/cha...r%20preamp.htm 


"Models 7777 and 7778 cover both VHF and UHF bands with separate amplification in each band for maximum signal handling. They may be configured for either separate or combined VHF and UHF inputs. They include a switchable FM trap. "


Also see nice table in this link


peter


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ericdwong* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So the main questions-- how far away should the UHF be from the other 2 antennas, and #2, is there a recommended preamp, preferably a UHF/VHF combiner preamp- I am looking at the Channel Master 7777 preamp...



To minimize interference, a UHF antenna should be at least one wavelength away from any other antennas. This measurement is taken from the active element in your setup. Since that dish is probably of the 7' variety, you were probably already fine. While others can do the math, I'd guess 4' should do you just fine.


The CM777 is one of the best preamplifiers on the market, especially for noise - 2.0db is a nice, low number. It has separate inputs for UHF and VHF, and does a good job isolating the two.


While the parabolics have a real nice gain number, their front-to-back ratio (crucial for digital reception) is not so great. The 91XG is a fine choice. However, you may not see much improvement if you place it in the same spot - elevation is more important than anything else with UHF reception, at least until you clear all local obstructions and trees by 10 feet.


Good luck!


----------



## ericdwong




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil Laffoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Eric,
> 
> 
> Isn't that parabolic UHF antenna about the highest gain model that has even been built. I don't think anything currently on the market, including the 91XG has as much forward gain. If weak signals are your problem, I think I would be keeping the parabolic antenna.




I dont know, it may very well be. My dad put that thing up. If its a good dish then heck, I'll keep it, saves me $80 from a new antenna. Right now the UHF sux and I think part of it is due to the antennas being too close and the lack of a preamp. I will probably amplify both UHF and VHF. I live far out enough in the country side that overload should not be a problem and when I try to receiver further stations such as Philly or Washington DC, the VHF will help.


I'm either gonna cherry picker it or use scaffolding, whichever is more cost effective. I need to get up there because one of the upper antenna masts is slipping in the wind and its really annoying. I thought it was the rotator at first, but after doing some testing using a long handled broom the rotator wasnt being blown, it was just the top mast slipping. So I gotta either drive a screw through there or get my welder up there to prevent that from happening.


How far away should I put the antennas? Or, maybe I'll try a different approach altogether, since now I have an extra rotator, put the VHF on another part of the house...and then also get a vertical rotator for that dish for maximum UHF pulling power....


----------



## ericdwong




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> To minimize interference, a UHF antenna should be at least one wavelength away from any other antennas. This measurement is taken from the active element in your setup. Since that dish is probably of the 7' variety, you were probably already fine. While others can do the math, I'd guess 4' should do you just fine.
> 
> 
> The CM777 is one of the best preamplifiers on the market, especially for noise - 2.0db is a nice, low number. It has separate inputs for UHF and VHF, and does a good job isolating the two.
> 
> 
> While the parabolics have a real nice gain number, their front-to-back ratio (crucial for digital reception) is not so great. The 91XG is a fine choice. However, you may not see much improvement if you place it in the same spot - elevation is more important than anything else with UHF reception, at least until you clear all local obstructions and trees by 10 feet.
> 
> 
> Good luck!




Thanks for that reply. I'll be ordering the 7777 preamplifier as soon as I'm done typing this. I will also think about getting that thing up higher. Last time me, my dad and a neighbor drug that stack of antennas on the roof and got it in place. This time, with a cherry picker I should be able to get it higher. I'll put an extra bearing and some more guy wire up there to keep it in place.


What exactly is the front to back ratio?


----------



## plumeria

Looking for balun (matching transformer) with longish cable

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Due to my setup, life would be made much easier if I could find a balun (300-75 ohm) with a longish cable, say about 12 inches. I searched on Google and several sites but so far without success - anyone know where I might be able to get one.


Alternatively, any idea if anyone sells a 1ft ready made section of RG6 with cables. The smallest I have found so far is 3ft. I know I could cut it in to 2 section and add connectors, but I would rather have this expertly done at the factory ;-)


thanks


Peter

p.s I basically want to join 2 antennas on the same mast with the least amount of connectors / failure points possible.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ericdwong* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey all, I can't believe its been 6 months since I posted this last. Anyway, its now great weather here in the mid-atlantic so I can do my outdoor projects once again.
> 
> 
> Heres what I'm planning to do. I'm going to rent a cherry-picker and loose that huge dish looking antenna. Add a pre-amp mainly for the UHF. Probably keep the existing VHF and the FM. I'd like to keep them on the same stack. A previous posted indicated my antennas were too close. How far away should they be positioned away from each other to minimize interference?
> 
> 
> I'm probably going to get the Antennas direct 91XG http://www.antennasdirect.com/91XG_HDTV_antenna.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as the TV reception takes #1 priority over what it looks like.
> 
> 
> So the main questions-- how far away should the UHF be from the other 2 antennas, and #2, is there a recommended preamp, preferably a UHF/VHF combiner preamp- I am looking at the Channel Master 7777 preamp...



Looking back at your earlier post, you are only 17 miles out from the Baltimore towers. It's possible you may run into overload problems with the CM 7777. You might do better with the CM 3042 distribution amp (at Lowe's) placed inside and continue to use the vhf/uhf diplexer on the mast. The new RS one is good as is the CM 0549 and Pico makes a good one http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf 


48 inches seems to be enough spacing for uhf and vhf 7-13. You'll need more for 2-6 vhf (60 works o.k.). When trying to prevent interaction, spacing should be measured between closest antenna elements i.e. any horizontal metal antenna part needs to be considered to prevent interaction. You are too close currently. See http://www.kyes.com/antenna/stacking.html 


The CM 4251 dish is very high gain but not as directional as the 91xg and has lower front-back ratio as mentioned. FB ratio and directionality is important for mulitpath (ghosting) rejection.


You may need to consider an FM trap as well if you're going with some sort of amplification. The Winegard model is good and the hi port of a hi/lo combiner works well if you don't need low band vhf (2-6) . See the pico link above.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ericdwong* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What exactly is the front to back ratio?



It is a measurement of the difference in signal strength of the antenna for a signal coming in the front (the proper end of the antenna) versus the back (the wrong end of the antenna.) Ideally, you should not receive any signal from the back of antenna, but no reflector screen is perfect, so there's always some signal that "leaks through." The parabolic screen on the Channel Master parabolic is especially porous (might have something to do with the active elements facing "backwards.")


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Looking back at your earlier post, you are only 17 miles out from the Baltimore towers. It's possible you may run into overload problems with the CM 7777.



17 miles should be fine if he is physically blocked - which it sounds like.


If his signals look anything like my 31 and 45 ( http://www.geocities.com/figbert/8vsb.html ) then a preamplifier is a good idea.


Of course, amplifying the VHF in such a circumstance could cause problems, since VHF bends readily.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 17 miles should be fine if he is physically blocked - which it sounds like.
> 
> 
> If his signals look anything like my 31 and 45 ( http://www.geocities.com/figbert/8vsb.html ) then a preamplifier is a good idea.
> 
> 
> Of course, amplifying the VHF in such a circumstance could cause problems, since VHF bends readily.




17 miles is pretty close in no matter what for full power stations and with a high gain preamp like the 7777. If the line of sight is obstructed then most likely the problem is multipath in which case a preamp is unlikely to help anyway. Assuming not, a lower gain preamp or even a line amp like I mentioned would be more immune to overload. I've had overload problems (?intermodulation) with my 7777 when attempting to use it as a line amp (20 db amp on the mast, 7777 in-line after 130 ft. cable) and my closest full power is 50 miles.


VHF bends as you say but most VHF or combo preamps (CM 7777 included) are also lower gain and have higher output capacity at VHF frequencies.


----------



## brianmf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *plumeria* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Not quite correct - see link from
> http://www.signalelectronics.com/cha...r%20preamp.htm
> 
> 
> "Models 7777 and 7778 cover both VHF and UHF bands with separate amplification in each band for maximum signal handling. They may be configured for either separate or combined VHF and UHF inputs. They include a switchable FM trap. "
> 
> 
> Also see nice table in this link
> 
> 
> peter



Sorry, my post wasn't very clear. I was referring to CM model 7775. It's a UHF only model, and I don't believe that it passes VHF. I agree that the other models will do a good job of handling both bands. In a previous post, it sounded like he might have been interested in only amping UHF. However, now it sounds like he will be amping both, for which the 7777 or the 7778 should work well.


----------



## dsm42

Sorry for the newbie question, but I haven't been able to find the answer to my question so far.


I just moved to a rental townhouse in Brookline (essentially part of Boston), and according to antennaweb, am only ~6 miles from lots of HDTV stations. But there's a large building across the street that appears to be blocking the path.


I tried "silver sensor", and when I originally scanned for channels, could only pick up a NH PBS station 57 miles away! And when I checked the signal for the Boston stations, the best I could get was 48% (and no picture), no matter where I went in my house or within a 100 ft down the street...


I'm hoping to have a Dish Network dish installed in a few days, and am now hoping I could get the guy to install an OTA antenna as well.


Antennaweb suggests a "red" (medium directional?) antenna. What antenna should I get, or what else should I try?


Thanks much,

Dave.


----------



## Deezul

I've been curious about this since I've decided to get an antenna. Because of where I live I've been leaning towards a CM4228 or CM4221. My local channels all have their HD channel above 14 now so UHF will be fine. But what happens once the digital deadline comes? Will the local channels, currently with VHF numbers for SD, start broadcasting their HD back on their old SD frequency, thus rendering my UHF only antenna useless? Or will they continue to broadcast on two frequencies? I know I'll probably get better reception right now with a UHF only, but I'd rather be proactive and get something that will work in the future.


Deezul


----------



## fay28301

Hi you-all, haven't been to the site lately, as I have been too busy with other stuff lately, such as re-trying out a pair of stacked DAT-75's. In my opinion, as when I tried them out before, a single CM4228 still out-performed them. I then installed a CM4251, as shown in the picture, and it out-performs them all and does just as well on digital as it does on analog. This is the one I told MAXHD about that I bought from someone that had it lying behind his shed. I cleaned it up, and straightened the bent reflectors on it out as well as I could. Figured that I would show you-all what one looks like installed.

Also, I just read the latest posts about the parabolics, and yes they are the highest gain OTC antennas ever made.


fay28301


----------



## dline




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Deezul* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've been curious about this since I've decided to get an antenna. Because of where I live I've been leaning towards a CM4228 or CM4221. My local channels all have their HD channel above 14 now so UHF will be fine. But what happens once the digital deadline comes? Will the local channels, currently with VHF numbers for SD, start broadcasting their HD back on their old SD frequency, thus rendering my UHF only antenna useless? Or will they continue to broadcast on two frequencies? I know I'll probably get better reception right now with a UHF only, but I'd rather be proactive and get something that will work in the future.



The second channel for digital is only temporary. When the transition is over, each station will have to give one of the two channels it has back to the government.


In early February of this year, each station was required to send the FCC a form indicating which channel they would like to settle on. It's called a "DTV First Round Election" form. In most cases, a station may pick either their analog or their DT channel for post-analog operation, as long as it's within the "core" -- that is, channels 2 through 51.


Stations stuck with two "out-of-core" channels, or a "low-VHF" channel between 2 and 6, can either try to negotiate an arrangement with another station or move to a second round of elections, in which they can pick from the leftovers.


If you wish to see what your stations have filed, go here:
http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs...d/app_sear.htm 


This should take you to the FCC's "search for application" page. Plug in the station's callsign (you may have to use the "-TV" suffix) or city of license and, where it says "form number", select form 382. It should show you a list containing one or several applications. Then, where it says "Info/Application," click on "Application."


----------



## holl_ands

Many VHF stations will transition DTV to their old analog channel assignments.

However, many are keeping their UHF DTV assignment, or moving to a different UHF channel.

Note they have already invested heavily on the new UHF station, and should eventually save barrels of hard cash on their monthly electric bill.


DTV Channel Election statistics were discussed in Doug Lung's TVTechnology column:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...04.06.05.shtml 

Note the link to a zip file summarizing channel election information as of 23 Feb 05.


----------



## holl_ands

The fol. Feb05 DTV Channel Election Summary is even easier to read:
http://www.dtvinfo.com/fccinfo/Form%...%20Results.pdf


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fay28301* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi you-all, haven't been to the site lately, as I have been too busy with other stuff lately, such as re-trying out a pair of stacked DAT-75's. In my opinion, as when I tried them out before, a single CM4228 still out-performed them. I then installed a CM4251, as shown in the picture, and it out-performs them all and does just as well on digital as it does on analog. This is the one I told MAXHD about that I bought from someone that had it lying behind his shed. I cleaned it up, and straightened the bent reflectors on it out as well as I could. Figured that I would show you-all what one looks like installed.
> 
> Also, I just read the latest posts about the parabolics, and yes they are the highest gain OTC antennas ever made.
> 
> 
> fay28301



Congratulations on a fine setup.










The 4251 is really fairly common in my area. You just have to get out into the country a bit and you'll see 4228's everywhere and probably a 4251 one out of ten. I'm sure a modest dollar offer would be accepted especially if there's also a dish on the roof/in the yard.


To get the best out of the DAT 75's when stacking them horizontally you have to space them out a bit. I used 56 inches. Televes recommends 57. This seems to be consistent with the recc put forth by Joseph Reisert at http://www.astronwireless.com/stacking.html and also is similar to stacking distances (for the lowest channel received) recc. by CATV antenna manufacturers like Lindsay Elec.

This also gives the best performance with the Triax Unix 100 Band A's (ch. 14-38) in my experience. It really narrows the beamwidth, though, so may not be preferred by Dxers as "catching" the signal is very important in that situation. The wider spacing also creates larger sidelobes but they don't seem to create a problem for me.


----------



## RayL Jr.

Gathered up some recommended antennas, boosters, etc... for OTA HDTV reception:

*Antennas*
*A-Tech custom assembly - w/ 2 Blake JBX21WB high gain yagi UHF antennas* 
*ATF-X300 Precision Antenna - horizontal dual yagi array* 
*Antiference XG16EW - horizontal dual yagi array* 
*Blake JBX21WB high gain yagi UHF (Blake UK)* 
*Blake JBX21WB high gain yagi UHF (Blake UK)* 
*Blonder Tongue BTY Series VHF & UHF antennas* 9/1/05
*Antennas Direct 91XG Uni-Directional Antenna - yagi UHF* 
*Televes DAT75 Digital Wideband Tv Aerial - yagi UHF* 
*Triax Unix 100 element aerial - yagi UHF* 
*Antiference DX8W - yagi UHF* 
*Winegard PR-9032 yagi UHF* 
*Channel Master Model 4248 aka 3023 yagi UHF* 
*Winegard HD-9095P yagi UHF* 
*Funke DC.4591-21/69 yagi UHF* 
*Home page for Funke aerial antennas* 

*Channel Master CM 4228 - 8-bay bowtie UHF* 
*Antennas Direct DB2 - 2-bay double bowtie indoor UHF* 
*Antennas Direct DB4 - 4-bay bowtie UHF* 
*Antennas Direct DB8 - 8-bay bowtie UHF* 
*Pro Brand International - 2-bay double bowtie indoor UHF* 
*Radio Shack UHF Dual HDTV Indoor Antenna - 2-bay double bowtie indoor UHF* 
*Winegard Square Shooter (SS-1000 & SS-2000) - indoor/outdoor UHF* 
*Antiference/Zenith Silver Sensor - indoor UHF* 
*Kathrein Scala PR-TV Paraflector parabolic UHF* 8/15/06
*Wade 4' parabolic UHF antenna* 4/12/07
*Wade 6' parabolic UHF antenna* 4/12/07
*Wade 8' parabolic UHF antenna* 4/12/07

*Rotors, tilters...*
*ATF-V300 Precision Tilter* 
*ATF-V200 Economy Tilter (use w/Channel Master 9521A rotator)* 
*Channel Master Model 9521A horizontal rotator* 
*ARS Antenna Rotator System for PC* 
*Eagle Aspen ROTR100 rotor* 4/12/07
*Eagle Aspen ROTR100 rotor test* 5/12/07
*hy-gain rotators* 
*Yaesu rotators* 

*Preamplifiers/boosters*
*Angle Linear PHEMT single stage preamplifier - to 20 dB, .4 dB noise* 
*Research Communications Type 9250 HDTV PHEMT LNA - 20 dB, .4 dB noise* 
*Research Communications Type 9248 TV LNA (75 ohms) - 20 dB, .4 dB noise* 
*Winegard AP-4700 UHF Pre-amplifier - 19 dB, 2.9 dB noise* 
*Winegard AP-8275 UHF Pre-amplifier - VHF 28 db, 2.8 noise UHF 29 dB, 2.9 dB noise* 
*Channel Master CM-7775 preamp - 26 dB, 2.0 dB noise* 
*Channel Master CM-7777 preamp - VHF 23 db, 2.8 noise UHF 26 dB, 2.0 dB noise* 
*Kuhne Electronic broadband UHF PHEMT preamplifier - 20 dB, 1.2-2 dB noise* 
*Sitco PA24 Series UHF preamplifier - 25 dB, 1.4 dB noise* 
*Radio Shack 15-2507 - 15 dB each main amp & preamp,*


----------



## Tyzerman

I've searched the forum for help regarding trees and OTA reception, but have not found a definitive answer.


My house is surrounded by a curtain of trees, from 30-100 feet away, and about 60 feet high. I have an older UHF/VHF classic directional tv antenna on the roof, and it does an admirable job with most HD channels, but a few are simply unworkable. The broadcast towers are all about 10miles away, and the stations are in about the same direction (185 and 199). I've tried an amplifier (not a pre-amp), rewired coax directly to the antenna, and even purchased a ChannelMaster Stealth (3010), but to no avail. Short of an 80 foot tower in my backyard, is there anything I can do that is reasonably inexpensive (less than $100), or should I give it up?


Thanks in advance, sorry if I broke any protocol, I'm new to this.


ps- I'm in the Washington, DC suburban area - 20853 - if that helps.


----------



## satscram 4000

I have the winegard squareshooter 2 (with pre-amp), mounted on my chimney.

At present I am pulling in 13 over the air HDTV stations, a couple of which are

automated weather/info channels. I also have Cox cable, and They offer my local

channels free in HDTV. The antenna is a multidirectional unit, approx 16" square,

barely noticed from the street. Antennaweb says I should only be able to receive 9 stations. About the ony HD channels I can not get are ESPN & Discovery.

I've also noticed that the over the air channels are a bit clearer than the cable,

as the cable company uses signal compression.


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tyzerman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've searched the forum for help regarding trees and OTA reception, but have not found a definitive answer.
> 
> 
> My house is surrounded by a curtain of trees, from 30-100 feet away, and about 60 feet high. I have an older UHF/VHF classic directional tv antenna on the roof, and it does an admirable job with most HD channels, but a few are simply unworkable. The broadcast towers are all about 10miles away, and the stations are in about the same direction (185 and 199). I've tried an amplifier (not a pre-amp), rewired coax directly to the antenna, and even purchased a ChannelMaster Stealth (3010), but to no avail. Short of an 80 foot tower in my backyard, is there anything I can do that is reasonably inexpensive (less than $100), or should I give it up?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance, sorry if I broke any protocol, I'm new to this.
> 
> 
> ps- I'm in the Washington, DC suburban area - 20853 - if that helps.



At only 10 miles you most llikely have *too much* signal if anything. Get rid of the preamps & amps. Put a variable attenuator (RS 15-678 $10) right at the back of your receiver and start dialing down signal levels. The other variable to play with is antenna location. A change of as little as 6 inches can make a big difference sometimes.


----------



## codee

I'm in zipcode 55448, 11.1 miles from pretty much all the towers. There is a installer coming this week to install a dish system and they are willing to install a OTA antenna also while they are here. I would prefer using a antenna in my attic (currently have the original from 11 years ago when house was built, I ran new RG6 cable to it but other then that its just kinda sitting up there not mounted or aimed at all - pretty crooked actually) I get most stations usually no problem, there was 1 time when very few came in but I have no idea why. Also, The WB only came in once the whole time i've tried using OTA HDTV.


( red - uhf KMWB-DT 23.1 WB MINNEAPOLIS MN 141° 11.1 22 )


My question is this - Could I stick somethin like a silver sensor up in my attic and have it work effectively by diplexiing the signal with the satellite feeds? (goin to 3 seperate HDTV Boxes) Or would I be better off with somthing like a channel master 4221? For the 4221 would it matter if it is on the roof or in the attic for such a close distance?


Thanks!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *codee* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I get most stations usually no problem, there was 1 time when very few came in but I have no idea why. Also, The WB only came in once the whole time i've tried using OTA HDTV.
> 
> 
> ( red - uhf KMWB-DT 23.1 WB MINNEAPOLIS MN 141° 11.1 22 )
> 
> 
> My question is this - Could I stick somethin like a silver sensor up in my attic and have it work effectively by diplexiing the signal with the satellite feeds? (goin to 3 seperate HDTV Boxes) Or would I be better off with somthing like a channel master 4221? For the 4221 would it matter if it is on the roof or in the attic for such a close distance?



You can read about things like tower painting, problems and the likes here: www.hdtvtwincities.com Most of the engineers post there when they have problems.


KMWB-DT is running at 20kw, directionally biased (in the extreme) to the south and east. People north and west of the tower typically can't get a signal from 10 miles away, even with great antennas and line of sight.


The 4221 is highly recommended. Outdoors is always better than indoors, as it eliminates many things that cause degradation of signals.


----------



## ericdwong

Ok so I havent gotten around to renting the cherry picker yet. But anyway I was combing the net for more info on the parabolic. It appears that the unit I have is the 4251. I found this thread from 2002 here http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/s...hreadid=126698 


Basically it discusses adding wire mesh to the back of the antenna increases gain and increases the f/b ratio.


I'm thinking about either adding another section to the antenna to further space them apart, then putting the UHF at the very top, since it the hardest to receive. The FM below that and then the VHF below that, or maybe FM at the very bottom and the VHF ontop of that. Thoughts? I hardly use the FM at home, and as it is now I can really reel in some FM stations.


----------



## jmccorm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Spend some time here:
> http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html



Well, that explains why I can't get one of my local channels in digital.


56 - KJRH-DT -- NBC 800 kW

55 - KOTV-DT -- CBS 970kW

42 - KTFO-DT -- UPN 625kW

22 - KOKI-DT -- FOX 1000kW

10 - KTUL-DT -- ABC 7kW


Can you guess which major station I have problems receiving?


----------



## Rack




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jmccorm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, that explains why I can't get one of my local channels in digital.
> 
> 
> 56 - KJRH-DT -- NBC 800 kW
> 
> 55 - KOTV-DT -- CBS 970kW
> 
> 42 - KTFO-DT -- UPN 625kW
> 
> 22 - KOKI-DT -- FOX 1000kW
> 
> 10 - KTUL-DT -- ABC 7kW
> 
> 
> Can you guess which major station I have problems receiving?



I'm guessing the channel on VHF, Channel 10. My channel 3 here is 3.7kW, moving on up to a massive 4.4kW. I get alright reception at 30 miles.

Sounds like you need something with gain. I think MAX HD has a nice VHF-hi yagi that would do the trick:
http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...nas/index.html


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jmccorm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, that explains why I can't get one of my local channels in digital.
> 
> 
> 56 - KJRH-DT -- NBC 800 kW
> 
> 55 - KOTV-DT -- CBS 970kW
> 
> 42 - KTFO-DT -- UPN 625kW
> 
> 22 - KOKI-DT -- FOX 1000kW
> 
> 10 - KTUL-DT -- ABC 7kW
> 
> 
> Can you guess which major station I have problems receiving?



If you're looking at KTUL, it's not as bad as it appears. VHF uses lower power to get equivalent coverage, and KTUL's digital transmitter is high enough that the maximum the FCC will allow them is 60kw. They're nowhere near that, and they're directional to boot (and if you're in the wrong direction, the signal could be as low as 1.35kw ERP. Still, that should cover at least 20-30 miles without any problems.


If you are using a UHF-only antenna, you may need to point it in a different direction for the VHF signals to come in at their best. I find that my UHF-only antenna does best pointed about +30 degrees from the target signal on hi-VHF.


----------



## Tyzerman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *quarque* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> At only 10 miles you most llikely have *too much* signal if anything. Get rid of the preamps & amps. Put a variable attenuator (RS 15-678 $10) right at the back of your receiver and start dialing down signal levels. The other variable to play with is antenna location. A change of as little as 6 inches can make a big difference sometimes.



Many thanks for your advice. Attenuator didn't help. However, as a last ditch attempt, I picked up an omnidirectional antenna at Radio Shack and that did the trick. Must be enough ambient UHF signals coming around the house and in the clear behind the directional antenna to make it work. You're right about position - I found that even a few inches can make or break a signal.

Cheers.


----------



## rgathright

I have seen pictures, but have been unable to find them of a combination mast setup for an antenna and a dish to be mounted on.


Any ideas?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rgathright* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have seen pictures, but have been unable to find them of a combination mast setup for an antenna and a dish to be mounted on.



You would need a very strong mast to attach even a mini-dish to. Most antenna masts are rather lightweight and couldn't handle the wind load of an 18" dish.


----------



## rgathright




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You would need a very strong mast to attach even a mini-dish to. Most antenna masts are rather lightweight and couldn't handle the wind load of an 18" dish.



The setup I am looking for is a standard satellite dish with bracket, but there is another bracket also for a mast that the antenna clamps on. This way there will be only one bracket being mounted on the new house.


----------



## RayL Jr.

Well I saw Antennas Direct banner ad here, led me to add a few more excellent antennas...


----------



## holl_ands

Kudos for the very comprehensive antenna reference list.


You might want to add the following to the list:


The www.hdtvprimer.com website isn't logically laid out.

The fol. link should be added to ensure access to additional important links within the site:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html 


FM Antenna Gain and Pattern simulations: http://users.tns.net/~bb/ 


Bob Chase (Houston Broadcast Engineer) compares measured Gain for numerous

UHF antennas mounted both outdoors and in his (high loss) attic:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...32#post5410432 


I posted an Excel spreadsheet comparing the manufacturer's Gain, Front/Back Ratio and Beamwidth for a couple dozen UHF Antennas and provided comparison to the hdtvprimer NEC Simulation data for several selected antennas:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1109029581 


Kerry Kozad (Dielectric) finally posted his paper comparing the measured Gain and VSWR for several of the most popular indoor and outdoor UHF antennas, including a comparison to NEC Simulation results:
https://secure.connect.pbs.org/confe...ns/TC05_43.htm 


This is the most comprehensive VSWR measurements effort that I have seen to date,

filling in data for an area the antenna manufacturers woud rather not talk about.

VSWR is important for DTV when an antenna mounted preamp is not used due to

Noise Figure degradation (actually degradation of the DTV signal vectors) as the

signal bounces back and forth on the long downlead.

More on this subject can be found in my fol. post:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...65#post5399965


----------



## RayL Jr.

Thanks holl_ands!







Added & dated those links & gave you credit. Guess I have some more reading to do. Many of these solutions may hopefully be more permanent for the future, unlike a lot of upgrades in the A/V world...


----------



## blackngold19

Does anyone think there will be any benefit to using a pre-amp with dist amp on the same line? Is there a chance of overload? I am 36 miles from my antenna farms. I recently relocated my antenna to the roof do to tree leaving and weak signals, and I am now running about 100 ft of rg6 up to the roof. I get all my stations locked in at about 69% and up most of the time. Also, Stark Electronics is in my hometown, so I could go with the CM 7775 and return if I didn't notice any considerable improvement. I'm just worried that the noise might affect the PQ.


DB4

dish 811


****Note to anyone who reads this post. Learn from my mistake here. For months I had my dist amp 10 feet from the receiver. As I was experimenting, I moved the amp to a middle location of the 100' run at my side door and voila, all channels were locked in smoothly. I believe I was overdriving the signal being so close to the receiver. Anyways....new to this stuff, so I guess I'll learn as I go along.


Thanks for any advice you may have.


----------



## greywolf

It's almost always a bad idea. One amplifies the noise created by the other. The probable reason moving the amp worked better was it amplified a better quality signal. You might want to try a preamp instead. The amplifier section is mounted very close to the antenna and amplifies the signal before it gets degraded by line loss. Good preamps like the 7775 and 7777 are less noisy than the typical distribution amp. With so many stations moving back to VHF and the excellent reputation of the 7777, you might consider that.


----------



## bob md

Hi,

I live in the Washington DC area, I posted a similar question in that forum last week but got now responses.


I just built a HT in my basement and since it is projector based and I'm waiting for the new MPEG-4 receivers, I decided to forgo a satellite setup for now. I wanted OTA HD so I bought a LG-4200A & love it. This theater is in the basement, I hooked up the existing, old outdoor antenna with spotty results. So I picked up a Silver Sensor & kept in in the basement, not much better. I then ran the SS from my attic (1 story house) with much better results - I'm receiving all local channels - a couple of drop offs but I'll move the antenna around a bit to resolve it.


I am only about 5 miles from the local towers, so I feel pretty comfortable with my results. However I'd love to pick up Baltimore & Annapolis stations - they are 30 miles away (BTW, all these stations are UHF, like my locals). Antennaweb.org suggests a Medium Directional (red) antenna. I don't mind putting a new antenna on my outside pole (attached to our chimney) but my concern is the correct antenna. I've heard people talk about getting too powerful of an antenna - any happy medium?


Thanks,

Bob


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> With so many stations moving back to VHF...



Although predictions had called for many if not most stations to go back to VHF on shutdown, Round 1 elections indicate that, surprisingly, many if not most are staying UHF. For example, out of the 22 stations in Massachusetts, only 2 are going to VHF. And of all the stations in the DC, Richmond, Charlottesville, Virginia areas that I pull in, I've seen only 2 as well that have elected VHF. As one chief engineer advised, the decision to stay UHF is due to cost.


This is a big relief to all of us in fringe areas who invested time and money -- to say nothing of blood sweat and tears -- in a UHF system and we basically no longer worry about shutdown.


----------



## blackngold19




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bob md* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I live in the Washington DC area, I posted a similar question in that forum last week but got now responses.
> 
> 
> I just built a HT in my basement and since it is projector based and I'm waiting for the new MPEG-4 receivers, I decided to forgo a satellite setup for now. I wanted OTA HD so I bought a LG-4200A & love it. This theater is in the basement, I hooked up the existing, old outdoor antenna with spotty results. So I picked up a Silver Sensor & kept in in the basement, not much better. I then ran the SS from my attic (1 story house) with much better results - I'm receiving all local channels - a couple of drop offs but I'll move the antenna around a bit to resolve it.
> 
> 
> I am only about 5 miles from the local towers, so I feel pretty comfortable with my results. However I'd love to pick up Baltimore & Annapolis stations - they are 30 miles away (BTW, all these stations are UHF, like my locals). Antennaweb.org suggests a Medium Directional (red) antenna. I don't mind putting a new antenna on my outside pole (attached to our chimney) but my concern is the correct antenna. I've heard people talk about getting too powerful of an antenna - any happy medium?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob



Yes, the www.antennasdirect . com DB4 4 BAY BOWTIE


----------



## pjo

Just got HD thru E*. I have their 811 receiver and want to get OTA HD. I'm in Maine, and I'm about 33-35 miles away from the towers which are north of my location. Any recommendation for an indoor, attic mounted antenna? I've read thru numerous posts and I know of the Silver Sensor but I haven't read about anyone trying to mount it or leave it up in an attic.....


I'll have to run a cable about 40 feet to get to the receiver from my attic.



* yellow - uhf WMEA-DT 45.1 PBS BIDDEFORD ME 295° 13.2 45

* yellow - uhf WCSH-DT 6.1 NBC PORTLAND ME 2° 33.7 44

* green - uhf WMTW-DT 46.1 ABC POLAND SPRING ME 357° 33.6 46

* lt green - uhf WGME-DT 13.1 CBS PORTLAND ME 20° 37.3 38


Thanks all


----------



## blackngold19




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pjo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just got HD thru E*. I have their 811 receiver and want to get OTA HD. I'm in Maine, and I'm about 33-35 miles away from the towers which are north of my location. Any recommendation for an indoor, attic mounted antenna? I've read thru numerous posts and I know of the Silver Sensor but I haven't read about anyone trying to mount it or leave it up in an attic.....
> 
> 
> I'll have to run a cable about 40 feet to get to the receiver from my attic.
> 
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf WMEA-DT 45.1 PBS BIDDEFORD ME 295° 13.2 45
> 
> * yellow - uhf WCSH-DT 6.1 NBC PORTLAND ME 2° 33.7 44
> 
> * green - uhf WMTW-DT 46.1 ABC POLAND SPRING ME 357° 33.6 46
> 
> * lt green - uhf WGME-DT 13.1 CBS PORTLAND ME 20° 37.3 38
> 
> 
> Thanks all



With the differences in antenna location, you may need to go with a 4 or 8 bay bowtie outside on a rotor. Good Luck if you decide on the attic install


----------



## holl_ands

The VHF-UHF ANTENNAS COMPARED FOR OUTDOOR USE is the same as the HEAVY METAL PT1 link, except the latter link has the pretty pictures removed.


HEAVY METAL PT2 (actually lightweight indoor antennas) is at fol link:
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/antin.htm


----------



## RayL Jr.

Thanks again holl_ands!







I'll try to get these links @ bottom more in a relative grouping to keep them better organized...


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *blackngold19* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does anyone think there will be any benefit to using a pre-amp with dist amp on the same line? Is there a chance of overload? I am 36 miles from my antenna farms. I recently relocated my antenna to the roof do to tree leaving and weak signals, and I am now running about 100 ft of rg6 up to the roof. I get all my stations locked in at about 69% and up most of the time. Also, Stark Electronics is in my hometown, so I could go with the CM 7775 and return if I didn't notice any considerable improvement. I'm just worried that the noise might affect the PQ.
> 
> 
> DB4
> 
> dish 811
> 
> 
> ****Note to anyone who reads this post. Learn from my mistake here. For months I had my dist amp 10 feet from the receiver. As I was experimenting, I moved the amp to a middle location of the 100' run at my side door and voila, all channels were locked in smoothly. I believe I was overdriving the signal being so close to the receiver. Anyways....new to this stuff, so I guess I'll learn as I go along.
> 
> 
> Thanks for any advice you may have.



I doubt as close in as you are it would help any. You could try using the 7775 alone at the antenna but with moderately high signal levels (which you most likely have at that distance) it probably won't matter much and it's even possible that the 7775 could overload if you have any stations that are even closer.

The 7775 has enough gain (assuming it doesn't overload) that no further amplification would likely be necessary or helpful.


To answer your original question fully, though, there *are* situations in which a line amp used at or near the receiver can be helpful if using a low/ moderate gain (say 20db or less) preamp at the antenna. This is the situation I currently have (20 db LNA at antenna, CM 3042 line amp inside). It can help to overcome the inherent noise level of the receiver and voltage loss in the line. See http://www.geocities.com/toddemslie/UHF-TV-DX.html


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: Kerry Cozad's Gain Summary charts were way too small to read.

See latest update to fol post for Excel Spreadsheets extracted from his presentation,

which are much easier to see now:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1118216319


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: Actual MEASUREMENTS of Antenna Gain, VSWR and Gain Patterns

for several of the most popular indoor and outdoor antennas are now available in a paper

Kerry Cozad (Dielectric Communications) presented at PBS 2005 Technology Conference.


The fol. link has more information and also includes the Excel Spreadsheet extracted

from the presentation, which contains just the VHF and UHF Gain curves:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1118216319 


Note how well the CM-4228 works, not only in the UHF band,

but also providing 8-9 dBd gain in the upper VHF band (CH7-13) and 2 dBd for CH2-6.


A new Hardware thread was started summarizing links for many antenna manufacturers

and associated discussion topics. Check it out:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...45#post5728945


----------



## holl_ands

Re. Overload Calculations, including effect of Distribution Amp.


I posted an Excel Spreadsheet "DTV Fade Margin Calc Rev B" at bottom of this post:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1112095186 

It can be used to perform "what if" calculations, including overload calculations.


If you aren't up to running RADIO MOBILE Propagation Prediction software,

you can use a simple Line-Of-Sight calculator to determine Path Loss,

and then throw in an estimate for Diffraction Loss (10-20 dB may be "typical")

to get you in the ballpark, depending on your local terrain.


----------



## holl_ands

Given the loss inside an attic, I doubt that there is such a thing as "too" much antenna gain.

On the other hand, the higher gain antennas are more difficult to point in the desired

direction and have narrower beamwidths if you have to cover different directions.


Even if it turns out you need to attenuate the signal even more than your downlead,

Radio Shack has an inexpensive variable RF attenuator that you can tweak to minimize overload.


----------



## qweqaz5

I finally mounted my Silver Sensor clone antenna(which came with the ATI HDTV Wonder) outside the house; now all my signals from Detroit are in the 82-95 % range. It used to fluctuate all the time inside the house eventhough it was next to the window and as high as possible.


However, I noticed a little loss in quality on all stations(not too much but noticeable from before)after switching from a 25ft Monster RG6 indoor coax cable to a burial-grade 50ft RCA RG6 outdoor cable. Is it because of the length? I assumed all RG6 cables are similar....


All suggestions welcome.


----------



## RayL Jr.

Thanks again holl_ands & again for the compliment.







Noted the .xls file link just below the 1st one.


I was also looking at getting my street elevations, etc... correct through topographic maps. Worked so well after printing from the 1st link I feel indebted to order their $15 custom laminated map.


Here's the topo map links added for now:

*Custom topographic maps - free preview* 
*Digital Topo Maps* 
*USGS Maps* 
*TopoZone* 


Wasn't surfing long, so there must be other good ones. 1st link worked just fine for me.


----------



## greywolf

It's not possible to get a little loss in picture quality with digital TV by changing the coax between the antenna and the tuner. It's your imagination. As long as the signal is good enough to keep the reception from breaking up, picture results will be identical.


----------



## rodoug




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Why are you getting a new antenna? Is the old one not working well? HD uses the exact same frequencies as analog, so if you're getting good UHF (almost all your digital stations use UHF) reception now, you already have what you need.
> 
> 
> The 4228 isn't a bad choice for a fixed install (i.e. not with a rotor) but I think the 4221 might be a slightly better choice. While most of your stations are at 162-163 degrees, a few are off-axis enough that the 4228 might be a touch too directional to get a good signal.
> 
> 
> 35-40 miles isn't "way out." I'm "way out" at 75 miles, and I still get good reception a lot of the time. At 40 miles, any quality "fringe" UHF/VHF antenna should work great. I used a Winegard HD7084P on my roof for a couple of years (single story) and anything inside of 50 miles was easy to get, in spite of my being below average grade and blocked by trees.
> 
> 
> I'd caution against getting the preamplifier until after the antenna is up - they solve one very specific problem - weak signal (snow on analogs) - but can cause lots of problems if that very specific problem isn't your issue (and it probably won't be.)
> 
> 
> As for power for a rotor - they use a special three-strand cable from the outdoor box to the indoor unit that supplies the power and controls the rotor - no need for electricity outside.



Will the CM 4228 UHF 8 bay bowtie also get VHF stations. Our most watched station is Channel 8. (8.1 digital). Also, can someone explain "gain" to me. sorry for such a basic question, but I'm starting from nothing. Thanks for all the input. I'm beginning to feel hopeful. My husband is hoping I can get all this done before football season. He's drooling at the thought of football on HD. Thanks again!


----------



## plumeria




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rodoug* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Will the CM 4228 UHF 8 bay bowtie also get VHF stations. Our most watched station is Channel 8. (8.1 digital). Also, can someone explain "gain" to me. sorry for such a basic question, but I'm starting from nothing. Thanks for all the input. I'm beginning to feel hopeful. My husband is hoping I can get all this done before football season. He's drooling at the thought of football on HD. Thanks again!




If you look at the message from holl_ands you wil see:-

"Note how well the CM-4228 works, not only in the UHF band,

but also providing 8-9 dBd gain in the upper VHF band (CH7-13) and 2 dBd for CH2-6"


So you get 8dB of gain from the 4228 on channel 8 which is pretty good. How far away is you station? I get channel 11, 32 miles away off the side of my 4228!


Peter


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rodoug* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Will the CM 4228 UHF 8 bay bowtie also get VHF stations. Our most watched station is Channel 8. (8.1 digital). Also, can someone explain "gain" to me. sorry for such a basic question, but I'm starting from nothing. Thanks for all the input. I'm beginning to feel hopeful. My husband is hoping I can get all this done before football season. He's drooling at the thought of football on HD. Thanks again!



The 4228 does pretty well for 9-13 but 8 and lower may require a different antenna. Also, "digital 8.1" may actually be a uhf channel as the true digital channel will be different than the "virtual" channel which is typically the same as the analog. Go to www.antennaweb.org or http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp 

for info on the stations in your area.


Gain is simply how much signal will be produced by the antenna as referenced either to a simple dipole (dbd) or a so-called "isotropic radiator" (dbi). Dbd is typically around 2 db lower than numbers quoted in dbi.


----------



## holl_ands

The motherload of topo and other maps.

Hi-rez viewing requires subscription. You can also order hi-rez prints for a price.

SEARCH by LAT/LONG, Address, City, Zipcode, etc will reveal over a dozen different

topographic products, including satellite and aerial images:
http://www.terraserver.com/ 


Punch in street address and GeoCode's Eagle will show your GPS LAT/LONG on a Topo Map:
http://www.geocode.com/modules.php?name=TestDrive_Eagle 


Tailor coordinates to yield Topo or Aerial Photo Map in jpg format:
http://www.lostoutdoors.com/newmap.html 


I use the free RADIO MOBILE Propagation Prediction Program to view not only very high

resolution topographic maps, but can also use the "MERGE PICTURE" function to display

various images automatically downloaded onto the topo map. This includes road maps

from MAPPOINT/MAPQUEST, LANDSAT IR images, TerraServer images, and Tiger data.

The Topo map data can be either automatically downloaded when you need it, or you

can manually download the much higher resolution (30 m) SRTM-1 database.

See my 22Mar post in the fol thread for RM links and examples:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1112095186 


OH, almost forgot...RM also calculates propagation characteristics over irregular terrain.

So you can investigate how much antenna/preamp gain you need.

And did I say that it was FREE???


----------



## holl_ands

Satellite Pointing Angle for different satellites:
http://www.nerosoft.com/SatCalcView.asp


----------



## Bill Johnson

My constant advice to anyone new to digital television, but living in a fringe area, is run don't walk to your computer and over the Internet order a 4228, and try it in the attic. That antenna solidly pulls in UHF digital stations at tremendous distances for me and it even solidly pulls in Channels 7 and 9 analog at equally amazing distances. But in my case a rotor (CM) & a dist. amp. (3044) are a must. I own no stock in CM but am just a happy customer.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill Johnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My constant advice to anyone new to digital television, but living in a fringe area, is run don't walk to your computer and over the Internet order a 4228, and try it in the attic. That antenna solidly pulls in UHF digital stations at tremendous distances for me and it even solidly pulls in Channels 7 and 9 analog at equally amazing distances. But in my case a rotor (CM) & a dist. amp. (3044) are a must. I own no stock in CM but am just a happy customer.



My constant advice to everyone who buys a 4228 is not to use a rotor with it outdoors without a load bearing. The 4228 has phenomenal wind load.


----------



## Bill Johnson

I totally agree with reg and not only that but I would say ANY antenna outdoors (W or WO a rotor) needs to be installed as if it were a 4228 having a wind load factor to about the 50th power. Of course I also say try that attic first and perhaps avoid any environmental problems from the start.


----------



## RayL Jr.

Thanks again holl_ands - cool link!







I did a spreadsheet calc but can't upload the .xls (Excel) or .sxc (OpenOffice) to my FTP Tripod site right now (AceFTP seems stubborn right now). Funny other same types are there, I must be rusty. Anyway the calcs I have need just 3 parameters (1st 3 numbers):


Antenna tilt angle

Distance to tower (miles) 8.65 45,672.00 (feet)

Height of transmission (from Sea Level) 410.00

Height of antenna (from Sea Level) 1,245.00

Height difference antenna-transmission tower 835.00

Gross tilt angle to point antenna (degrees) 91.05


Earth circumference equator (miles) 24,902.00

Earth circumference poles (miles) 24,860.00

Mean earth diameter (miles) 7,926.55

Mean earth radius (miles) 3,963.28

Net height formed w/earth curvature (miles) .009 49.84 (feet)

Net tilt angle to point antenna (from Theta, 90 degrees level) 91.11


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rodoug* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Will the CM 4228 UHF 8 bay bowtie also get VHF stations. Our most watched station is Channel 8. (8.1 digital). Also, can someone explain "gain" to me. sorry for such a basic question, but I'm starting from nothing. Thanks for all the input. I'm beginning to feel hopeful. My husband is hoping I can get all this done before football season. He's drooling at the thought of football on HD. Thanks again!



Rodoug,


Three of your stations have filed to remain VHF when analog goes away. I know you watch WFAA (ABC) and KTVT (CBS). The 3rd VHF station is KERA (PBS). Almost all of your stations are down on Cedar Hill, just east of Estes Park along Rt 67, regardless of where they are licensed to. (Ft Worth, Dallas, Garland, Arlington, etc.)


KLDT-DT (ch55 analog) is about 9 miles from you a little more east of Cedar Hill. Their tansmitter is probably north of Coppel up by the county line and just west of the Stemmons freeway. That's an independent station that you probably wouldn't watch but it might carry some sports (their Houston station does). So if you and hubby watch sports you might want that station too. The good news is that even off the backside of their antenna and a little off-angle from Cedar Hill on your antenna, you are going to get them with an outside antenna.


The other station that is off-axis for you is KMPX (ch29 analog) another independent. Lieberman broadcasting in Houston is infomercial by day and a Hispanic independent at night. I don't know what they do in the Dallas market.


As for antenna recommendations: I'd try the one you have now unless there is something wrong with it. You mentioned that you are going to feed 3 to 4 TV's. If they are all digital 'capable' TV's then the 4228 is a fine antenna, as everyone has said, even for the three VHF stations.


However, if you plan on watching analog ch4 (FOX) or analog ch5 (NBC) on any set that cannot receive the digital channels, then the 4228 is a No-Go antenna for you. (an older TV in the kid's room, kitchen, or garage?) Look around at Fry's or Lowe's for a Channel Master 3016 or a Channel Master 5646 antenna. (It's the same antenna, just in different boxes.) This antenna will most likely get all of the stations at Cedar Hill, analog or digital, when it is outside above your roof. If you really want to through some money at the problem, I can recommend some other, much larger, antennas.


If you want to see the stations another way, click on this -
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/defaul...=Show+Stations 


The guy that does this website does a great job of displaying the station info for you. The 'Transmitter Antenna' column shows the stations antenna pattern. (How much signal they put out in any direction.) The center is them and the red line points to you.


Bob Chase

KHWB-TV


ps. Gain is like horsepower in your truck. You alway want lots more right up to the point where you can't keep the shiny-side up any more. With antennas there are few situations where you can have too much Gain. Amplifiers, on the other hand, can have too much horsepower and very well put you in the ditch wondering 'How did I get here?'


----------



## RayL Jr.

To find the tilt angle if needed to point antenna directly at tower you can use equation: TAN(a/b)*(180/PI())


a=transmission tower height (Mean Sea Level) _minus_ antenna height (Mean Sea Level)

b=distance to tower from antenna


Just make sure feet, miles, meters... are same units in equations. To adjust antenna heights/tilts angles for earth's curvature, I used a spherical cap formula to find the extra height added relative to reception antenna. This was based on the earth's average radius (3,956.55 miles) assuming it was spherical constant. The diameter of the equator actually exceeds the diameter of poles by about 1/300, but an averaged radius still seems to get within 10th of a degree or so of tilt angle accuracy (about as close as using K Factor of 1.333):


Antenna height gained by earths curvature: 3,956.55-SQRT(3,956.55^2-tower distance miles^2)



***************

The equator is 3,963.19059 miles radius & the poles 3,949.90276... To get a very accurate direct point at the tower angle w/earth's curvature use an oblate ellipsoid of rotation & calculate the angle on a triangle of 3 known sides.


NOTE: 1st obtain & convert Geodetic/Geodesic to Geocentric Latitudes (equation below). Unless you're @ the equator, a Geocentric or flattened latitude will usually be less than given on a map or site unless stated otherwise. Longitude naturally stays the same value (is unaffected by flattening).


New Geocentric latitude(s) in radians: =ATAN((1-(1/298.257223563))*TAN(geodetic or geodesic latitude))


From 2 Geocentric latitudes each radius can be found by using a & b as semi-major & minor axes (earth radius @ point) using *Mathworld - Ellipse equation 22* :


=SQRT((3,963.19059^2*3,949.90276^2)/(3,963.19059^2*COS(latitude)^2+3,949.90276^2*SIN(latitude)^2 ))


Each latitude location gets it's own radius (2 total). To complete the radius length of each, add the total heights of respective antenna-tower above Mean Sea Level. You can adjust the final radius results with the *NSG COMPUTATION OF USGG2003 GRAVIMETRIC GEOID HEGHT* or *NSG COMPUTATION OF GEOID03 GEOID HEIGHT* . The last adjustment is usually in only the tens of meters for the Geoid height over/under the smooth mathematical earth ellipsoid...


The 3rd triangle side is the tower-antenna distance. This is derived from the Geocentric latitude/longitude angles & both radii from earth center. No need to find out distances in miles or km, just accurate latitudes/longitudes. This calculates the chord or straight-line distance of 2 points on an ellipsoid. The distance is:


=SQRT((radius1^2+radius2^2)-2*radius1*radius2*(COS(lat1)*COS(lat2)+COS(long1-long2)*SIN(lat1)*SIN(lat2)))


* NOTE: this equation above uses 90 degrees MINUS latitude for lat1 & lat2 for north hemisphere! This is because equation uses Phi/Latitude angle from 0 to 180 degrees starting from North Pole not equator, for south hemisphere it's 90 degrees plus latitude. This is how Phi is actually referenced in polar, spherical... coordinates.


Now with final triangle lengths a,b,c, just use the Law of Cosines to find either or both angles from tower or antenna: ACOS angle =((b^2+c^2-a^2)/(2*b*c)) *(180/pi()) a will always be the side opposite the angle you want (in degrees).


Answer also checks out if you use x,y,z Cartesian values converted from polar coordinates by length= SQRT((x1-x2)^2+(y1-y2)^2+(z1-z2)^2). Things are a lot easier when you have radians & radius equal to 1.









***************



These last adjustments seem to show the 1st result is just a hair off, more so seemingly when tower distances get closer (maybe because it's a spherical cap formula that's distorted slightly, I was looking to adjust to an elliptical cap & other factors got more complex). Since both adjustments are in my spreadsheet (I should get to post) any future calcs won't take much time at all...


So, some interesting related links:

*Earth's gravity definition - the Geoid* 6/9/05
*Mean Sea Level, GPS, and the Geoid* 6/9/05
*The Ellipsoid! Or is it the Spheroid? How About Geoid?* 6/9/05
*Mathworld - Equation 22, finding earth radius @ latitude (for oblate ellipsoid)* 6/9/05
*The NGS GEOID Page - +/- adjustments for earth's oblate ellipse* 6/9/05
*NSG COMPUTATION OF USGG2003 GRAVIMETRIC GEOID HEIGHT* 6/9/05
*NSG COMPUTATION OF GEOID03 GEOID HEIGHT* 6/9/05
*Earth - ellipse demo* 6/9/05
*The Earth's Geoid* 6/9/05
*Earth - parametric latitude, WSG84 spheroid specs...* 6/9/05
*The Earth as an Ellipsoid, flattening Datum history...* 6/9/05


----------



## holl_ands

Current worldwide list of Radio & TV Stations, with channel, power, height, lat/long info.

Click on station call letters for map with station location.
http://www.w9wi.com 

Not as easy or as quick as www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp 


Yet another list of DTV Stations includes proposed assignment change list:
http://www.tvtower.com/hdtv_status.html 


I find the following to be the most comprehensive list of Analog and DTV stations

in Southern California, since it combines all the stations in a particular region into

a single list, eg. LA/Indio/PalmSprings or SD/Baha:
http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/ca/ 


National and Worldwide lists of Broadcast Radio, TV and Ham radio stations:
http://www.tvradioworld.com/default.asp 


Very useful site, including Doug Lung's weekly RF REPORT column re DTV Technology:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/


----------



## RayL Jr.

Again, thanks holl_ands!







Just put all those other links in, for now just have some hyperlinks to fill out under Accessories...


----------



## Ken H

A tip of the AVS hat to RayL Jr. & holl_ands, for a great topic.


----------



## RayL Jr.

Thanks Ken!







Regarding that Antenna Tilt Angle page I had K Factor set @ Infinity. With the default K Factor of 1.33 I got .079 degrees "up" @ 8.5 miles & .025 degrees "down" @ 50 miles. That's within about 1/10th degree of real earth curvature "straight point" adjustment...


K Factor takes into account the effect of the refraction on RF propagation, & varies with climate & location.


I also found these 2 links:

*Antenna Up/Down Tilt Calculator (compensates for Earth curvature)* 
*Antenna - K-Factor & climate effects*


----------



## RayL Jr.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ken H* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A tip of the AVS hat to RayL Jr. & holl_ands, for a great topic.



Just noticed it's a sticky after posting... Thanks again Ken H, holl_ands & AVS!


----------



## ChrisW6ATV

Cool topic, lots for me to check out before I try some ATSC DXing...


Considering the beamwidth of even high-gain UHF antennas, are you really getting better results by adding "tilt" to terrestrial antenna installations? Seeing the 'less than one degree' remarks above makes me think it is not truly going to accomplish much. (In ham radio, we only use tilt rotation for satellite contacts.)


----------



## RayL Jr.

Actually my friend in Buffalo commented "What if an office building is in the way?". Guess it's more acedemic at this point & testing for actual signal strength by rotate & tilt, height, location, obstructions, space... (whether mechanically or physically) is the most accurate way.


Nice to know these calcs can get very precise. BTW, I changed my last equation from spherical cap derivation to finding r1 & r2 radius of earth ellipse (antenna-tower latitudes in radians). Along w/distance to tower it makes a triangle with which I just use the Law of Cosines (knowing 3 sides): CosA=(b^2+c^2-a^2)/(2*b*c). This is direct point but doesn't use K Factor. You can find angles from both transmitter & antenna...


----------



## blackngold19

Does anyone have any advice for the horizontal stacking of 2 DB4'S? I get all my stations now at 36 mi, but I'd like to get a little more gain with a couple of the weaker ones. My plan is to run both on long j-poles and just leave a very small gap in between the antennas. I will also be using a CM7777 with the setup. Also, can one antenna be pointed in another direction and then combined? Can I run a small VHF on top of one of the DB4' through the cm7777?


Any advice for my little project would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks,


Blackie


----------



## dapack5




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Rodoug,
> 
> 
> Three of your stations have filed to remain VHF when analog goes away. I know you watch WFAA (ABC) and KTVT (CBS). The 3rd VHF station is KERA (PBS). Almost all of your stations are down on Cedar Hill, just east of Estes Park along Rt 67, regardless of where they are licensed to. (Ft Worth, Dallas, Garland, Arlington, etc.)
> 
> 
> KLDT-DT (ch55 analog) is about 9 miles from you a little more east of Cedar Hill. Their tansmitter is probably north of Coppel up by the county line and just west of the Stemmons freeway. That's an independent station that you probably wouldn't watch but it might carry some sports (their Houston station does). So if you and hubby watch sports you might want that station too. The good news is that even off the backside of their antenna and a little off-angle from Cedar Hill on your antenna, you are going to get them with an outside antenna.
> 
> 
> The other station that is off-axis for you is KMPX (ch29 analog) another independent. Lieberman broadcasting in Houston is infomercial by day and a Hispanic independent at night. I don't know what they do in the Dallas market.
> 
> 
> As for antenna recommendations: I'd try the one you have now unless there is something wrong with it. You mentioned that you are going to feed 3 to 4 TV's. If they are all digital 'capable' TV's then the 4228 is a fine antenna, as everyone has said, even for the three VHF stations.
> 
> 
> However, if you plan on watching analog ch4 (FOX) or analog ch5 (NBC) on any set that cannot receive the digital channels, then the 4228 is a No-Go antenna for you. (an older TV in the kid's room, kitchen, or garage?) Look around at Fry's or Lowe's for a Channel Master 3016 or a Channel Master 5646 antenna. (It's the same antenna, just in different boxes.) This antenna will most likely get all of the stations at Cedar Hill, analog or digital, when it is outside above your roof. If you really want to through some money at the problem, I can recommend some other, much larger, antennas.
> 
> 
> If you want to see the stations another way, click on this -
> http://www.2150.com/broadcast/defaul...=Show+Stations
> 
> 
> The guy that does this website does a great job of displaying the station info for you. The 'Transmitter Antenna' column shows the stations antenna pattern. (How much signal they put out in any direction.) The center is them and the red line points to you.
> 
> 
> Bob Chase
> 
> KHWB-TV
> 
> 
> ps. Gain is like horsepower in your truck. You alway want lots more right up to the point where you can't keep the shiny-side up any more. With antennas there are few situations where you can have too much Gain. Amplifiers, on the other hand, can have too much horsepower and very well put you in the ditch wondering 'How did I get here?'




i tried the address that you have listed here:

i typed in my lat. as 26.602557 and long. as 081.625689 ( from the finder program also ) and i get no stations showing at all! am i doing something wrong?


----------



## greywolf

Longitude needs to be -081.


----------



## dapack5




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greywolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Longitude needs to be -081.



thanks that did the trick! i thought that i had tried that already but i guess i didn't


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *blackngold19* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any advice for the horizontal stacking of 2 DB4'S? I get all my stations now at 36 mi, but I'd like to get a little more gain with a couple of the weaker ones. My plan is to run both on long j-poles and just leave a very small gap in between the antennas. I will also be using a CM7777 with the setup. Also, can one antenna be pointed in another direction and then combined? Can I run a small VHF on top of one of the DB4' through the cm7777?
> 
> 
> Any advice for my little project would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Blackie



2 horizontally stacked DB4's = one DB8.


I guess you could still do it though if you want.


You'll likely run into problems if you try to point one in a different direction. Make sure the coax is exactly the same length up to the combiner. As far as spacing is concerned, you could probably start at about the same distance as the DB8.










It shouldn't be a problem to add a VHF antenna, just space adequately from the bowtie (48 inches should be enough for high band 7-13, probably need at least 60 for low band 2-6). The CM 7777 has separate vhf and uhf inputs and an internal diplexer to make it easy for you; make sure the internal switch is set correctly.


----------



## bobchase

cpcat & blackie,


Combining two antennas with a resistive splitter/combiner offers no gain increase. In fact, you loose about a dB or so. You do still gain horizontal directionality though. The CM4228 uses phase combining to combine the two sides. That is why the CM4228 has more measured gain than the DB-8 or the Winegard PR-8800. Just something to keep in mind if you are expecting a huge signal increase.


Bob Chase

KHWB-TV


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> cpcat & blackie,
> 
> 
> Combining two antennas with a resistive splitter/combiner offers no gain increase. In fact, you loose about a dB or so. You do still gain horizontal directionality though. The CM4228 uses phase combining to combine the two sides. That is why the CM4228 has more measured gain than the DB-8 or the Winegard PR-8800. Just something to keep in mind if you are expecting a huge signal increase.
> 
> 
> Bob Chase
> 
> KHWB-TV



Narrowing the beamwidth probably is the most important factor in why horizontal stacking increases antenna performance. Gain is likely increased as well depending on the application. Using a stripline combiner certainly *does* increase gain whether stacking horizontally or vertically. You can debate how much gain is increased using a resistive splitter. Most are 3.5 - 4 db through- loss which indicates 3db for the split (50%) plus insertion loss. This would suggest about .5-1.0 db insertion loss when used as a combiner, which gives 1-2db gain increase under optimal circumstances when stacking.


Using a stripline combiner (about .2-.3 db insertion loss max) gain increase would approach 3db under optimal conditions.


----------



## holl_ands

When you stack antennas, you are doing more than simply increasing gain.

MORE IMPORTANTLY, you are spreading out the antenna structure so that it has a

better chance of at least one part of the antenna NOT being in a multipath null.


This is one of the primary advantages of the CM-4228 8-Bay Bowtie. It spreads out

the individual bowtie elements in BOTH the horizontal and vertical directions.


One aspect of stacking antennas vertically is the ability to have a null directed towards the ground,

which reduces the man-made noise levels if the feed lines are phased correctly for a particularly bad channel.

Unfortunately, it is difficult to direct the null for all desired frequencies,

so these kind of offset or phased combiners are more common for fixed frequency Ham radio.

(unless you are clever enough to build an adaptive antenna array).


One important aspect of horizontal stacking is the likelihood that the combined

antenna pattern will have very deep nulls on either side of the main beam,

which can be steered in the direction of strong multipath or other interference as

you hunt around for the "best" direction.

Of course, this requires a rotator (unless you can build an adaptive antenna array).


So I would vote for horizontal stacking of the already vertically stacked 4-Bay or 8-Bay Bowtie antennas.


----------



## midblue

Hi all, I have a question about antenna placement. I live south of Boston in a ground floor apartment that has only southern-facing windows, and all the stations I am trying to receive are pretty much directly north of me. I'm only 15 miles from the transmitters, so I would think that I could still pull in all the stations, but I'm having a lot of trouble getting a steady signal. Right now I'm using an indoor antenna pointed north. What would be the best place/direction to put an antenna? I'd like to stay indoor if possible, but outdoor is an option. Should I point the antenna north even though it's pointed at a wall, or should I point it south, out the window? Which direction should I point it if I mount it outside? I've tried omnidirectional indoor antennas with no luck - is there an outdoor omni option that I could try, or should I stick with directional? Any advice here would be great. Right now I can pull in a couple stations pretty solidly but most are still fluctuating b/w 15-40%. Thanks very much!


----------



## the_bear89451

Everyone says higher is better, but in my case I got a better signal meter reading from the ground.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...47#post5751247


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *midblue* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi all, I have a question about antenna placement. I live south of Boston in a ground floor apartment that has only southern-facing windows, and all the stations I am trying to receive are pretty much directly north of me. I'm only 15 miles from the transmitters, so I would think that I could still pull in all the stations, but I'm having a lot of trouble getting a steady signal. Right now I'm using an indoor antenna pointed north. What would be the best place/direction to put an antenna? I'd like to stay indoor if possible, but outdoor is an option. Should I point the antenna north even though it's pointed at a wall, or should I point it south, out the window? Which direction should I point it if I mount it outside? I've tried omnidirectional indoor antennas with no luck - is there an outdoor omni option that I could try, or should I stick with directional? Any advice here would be great. Right now I can pull in a couple stations pretty solidly but most are still fluctuating b/w 15-40%. Thanks very much!



It's possible you could catch a signal "bouncing" off something by pointing out the window but most likely you'll have better luck pointing towards the direction of the transmitters.


If you've tried various positions/locations indoors to no avail, I'd start with a CM 4221 outside as high as possible pointed toward the transmitters. You could also try the 4221 indoors just for fun first, but, even it it works, you may or may not be willing to keep it there for aesthetic reasons unless you can hide it in a closet where it still works or something of that nature. You shouldn't need a preamp at that distance. All the digitals from Boston are UHF so that should do it unless you want the analogs.


----------



## gghertz

Found a Terk TV20 for great price. Their new packaging empahsizes HD reception but this unit appears to be the same at 60% discount. Says up to 40db adjustable gain on the indoor dowtie. Any thoughts on if this is a good move or do i need to go after a Yagi or Silver Star? Thanks


----------



## blackngold19




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gghertz* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Found a Terk TV20 for great price. Their new packaging empahsizes HD reception but this unit appears to be the same at 60% discount. Says up to 40db adjustable gain on the indoor dowtie. Any thoughts on if this is a good move or do i need to go after a Yagi or Silver Star? Thanks



Let's hope you get a Silver Sensor instead of a Silver Star. Just kidding..The SS is the best indoor antenna on the market.


----------



## RayL Jr.

Well, I played with ellipses & geodesics a lot with speakers/enclosures, domes... & was familiar with the terminology of GPS coordinate conversion, so I dug up some more useful links. Here's the links:

*Vincenty formula for distance between two Latitude/Longitude points* 6/12/05
*Vincenty's Formulae, Inverse Method* 6/14/05
*Forward Inverse - Azimuth, distance... ellipsoidal calc program* 6/14/05
*Ellipsoid Radii Calculator* 6/14/05
*Vincenty Ellipsoid corrected Great Circle Calculator* 6/14/05
*Distance and bearig between two Latitude/Longitude points* 6/14/05
*Freeware DOS program calculates ellipsoidal geodesic path* 6/14/05


----------



## dbuff

Been browsing- what kind of receiver would you need to plug antanna to?


Current set up for TV viewing:

Charter Cable TV feeds old VCR

VCR acting as current Tuner


Composite eed from VCR thru Denon 3803 Receiver

and Component feed to to NEC plasma

(NEC is commercial verision - has no tuner)


Many Thanks...


----------



## pjo

Well, I ended up picking up a cheap Philips antenna at Walmart for about 34 bucks. It's the MANT510 model. I hooked it up in my attic and I get decent reception - all channels are 75% and up for strength. What I'm wondering is if a DB4 or CM4228 would be noticeably better than the antenna I bought. Thoughts? I wouldn't mind trying to pull in a few more stations and I think the DB4/CM4228 would do that for me. All towers are about 34+ miles away too. I posted antennaweb info in another post.


pjo


----------



## Bill Johnson

pjo should run, not walk, back to Walmart and get a refund on that Phillips antenna (after going online to Warren Electronics and ordering and receiving a CM 4221 for $20 plus S&H.) I guarantee he will get better digital reception.


----------



## eyedol

Hm I can't post a link....I'd like to post the pics of my antenna web results....


I'd like to start off by saying this is a great forum and I'm glad to have found it. Can you guys recommend me an antenna that will offer a good clean signal considering the installation goes well. I'd like to keep the antenna as small as possible to avoid an eyesore. I'm gearing toward a samsung t351 off ebay for my tuner since my toshiba dlt doesnt have it built in. If anyone knows a decent affordable tuner and would like to recommend it I'd like to hear about it. Thanks.


* yellow - vhf WFAA-DT 8.1 ABC DALLAS TX 175° 16.7 9

* yellow - uhf KXAS-DT 5.1 NBC FORT WORTH TX 173° 16.7 41

* yellow - uhf KXTX-DT 40.1 TEL DALLAS TX 173° 16.7 40

* yellow - uhf KTVT-DT 11.1 CBS FORT WORTH TX 170° 17.1 19

* yellow - uhf KTXA-DT 21.1 UPN FORT WORTH TX 172° 19.6 18

* yellow - uhf KSTR-DT 49.1 UNI IRVING TX 172° 19.6 48

* yellow - uhf KPXD-DT 68.1 PAX ARLINGTON TX 174° 16.3 42

* yellow - uhf KMPX-DT 30.1 DAY DECATUR TX 40° 4.4 30

* yellow - uhf KUVN-DT 23.1 UNI GARLAND TX 173° 16.3 24

* yellow - uhf KDTN-DT 2.1 DAY DENTON TX 172° 19.6 43

* yellow - uhf KDTX-DT 58.1 TBN DALLAS TX 173° 16.3 45

* yellow - uhf KERA-DT 14.1 PBS DALLAS TX 170° 17.1 14

* yellow - uhf KFWD-DT 52.1 IND FORT WORTH TX 173° 16.4 51

* yellow - uhf KDAF-DT 33.1 WB DALLAS TX 172° 19.6 32

* yellow - uhf KDFW-DT 4.1 FOX DALLAS TX 175° 16.7 35

* lt green - uhf KLDT-DT 55.1 IND LAKE DALLAS TX 353° 12.4 54

* red - uhf KDFI-DT 27.1 IND DALLAS TX 172° 19.6 36



These are the digital stations off antennaweb.


----------



## bobchase

eyedol,


You mention eyesore, so I presume that you are going to mount it outside. Try a Channel Master 3016 that you can get at Lowe's or Fry's locally. They also sell larger VHF/UHF antennas. The Winegard HD7210 also works well at that distance but I have yet to see them sold in a local store.


See my post to rodoug @ http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post5733534 for details on the DFW area. It looks like you both live in the same neck of the woods.


Bob Chase

KHWB


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Narrowing the beamwidth probably is the most important factor in why horizontal stacking increases antenna performance. Gain is likely increased as well depending on the application. Using a stripline combiner certainly *does* increase gain whether stacking horizontally or vertically. You can debate how much gain is increased using a resistive splitter. Most are 3.5 - 4 db through- loss which indicates 3db for the split (50%) plus insertion loss. This would suggest about .5-1.0 db insertion loss when used as a combiner, which gives 1-2db gain increase under optimal circumstances when stacking.
> 
> 
> Using a stripline combiner (about .2-.3 db insertion loss max) gain increase would approach 3db under optimal conditions.



CPCAT,

Actually, that would be 1 to 2 dB loss for a resistive combiner under optimal conditions.

Stripline combiners (hybrids) are frequency specific and not available to the general public - and that is who we are talking to on this forum. So, yes, while hybrids actually do give a net gain for combined antennas, would people who ask qustions on this forum actually go out and order a $300 device from Micro-Circuits or some other RF manufactuer that only works on part of the UHF TV spectrum?


Bob C


----------



## holl_ands

Lindsay, a company in Canada, makes both 2-Port and 4-Port stripline couplers with only 0.2 dB of insertion loss per port:
http://www.lindsayelec.com/antenna/c...combiners.html 

They are specifically designed for the UHF band, including F-type connectors.

U.S. supplier is www.signalvision.com and cost is somewhat over $100.


See the fol. posts for specs, prices, user results and even pictures of them in action:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST18485 
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST15854 
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST13944


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> cpcat & blackie,
> 
> 
> Combining two antennas with a resistive splitter/combiner offers no gain increase. In fact, you loose about a dB or so. You do still gain horizontal directionality though. The CM4228 uses phase combining to combine the two sides. That is why the CM4228 has more measured gain than the DB-8 or the Winegard PR-8800. Just something to keep in mind if you are expecting a huge signal increase.
> 
> 
> Bob Chase
> 
> KHWB-TV



Bob: Did you really mean to say "resistive" splitter/combiner?

I don't think I've ever seen that type of device for consumer TV use.

A true resistive 2-port device, such as the Mini-Circuits ZFRSC series, has an insertion loss of about 6 dB:
http://www.minicircuits.com/dg03-122.pdf 

If such a device were used, it would always insert a loss of 6 dB per port, independent of the antenna direction, phasing and gain matching.

Hence 3 dB loss for stacked antennas under best of conditions.


Now if you mean the "hybrid" type splitter/combiner that is normally used for antenna and cable RF Splitter/Combiner jobs,

then you must consider whether the signals on the two combiner ports are equal strength and in-phase.


If the inputs to the 2-port hybrid are equal and in-phase (e.g. stacked antennas perfectly matched),

then the hybrid will coherently combine the two signals with only a minimal (typ 0.5 dB) loss on each port.

This results in about 2 dB gain for matched stacked antennas vs only one antenna.


If the inputs to the 2-port hybrid are NOT equal and in-phase (e.g. dissimilar antennas, slightly mis-aligned antennas or antennas in different directions),

then the hybrid will be unbalanced, resulting in the internal resistor dissipating roughly half of the input power from each port.

For slightly mis-matched antennas, this may result in minimal, if any net gain vs a single antenna.

For dissimilar antennas or antennas in different directions, each port will suffer the insertion loss in the hybrid, or typically about 3.5 dB +/- 0.5 dB.


The Lindsay Stripline 2-Port and 4-Port Couplers ALWAYS have 0.2 dB insertion loss on each port,

irrespective of the number of ports or whether the input signals are gain and phase matched.

As you can see from the numbers above, they are particularly useful when combining more than two antennas

(when the hybrid loss doubles) and when combining antennas pointed in different directions.


Of course, stacked antennas have advantages beyond just signal gain in combatting multipath and suppressing undesired signals, as I discussed in my earlier post on 12Jun05.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *eyedol* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm gearing toward a samsung t351 off ebay for my tuner since my toshiba dlt doesnt have it built in. If anyone knows a decent affordable tuner and would like to recommend it I'd like to hear about it. Thanks.
> 
> 
> * yellow - vhf WFAA-DT 8.1 ABC DALLAS TX 175° 16.7 9
> 
> * yellow - uhf KXAS-DT 5.1 NBC FORT WORTH TX 173° 16.7 41
> 
> * yellow - uhf KXTX-DT 40.1 TEL DALLAS TX 173° 16.7 40
> 
> * yellow - uhf KTVT-DT 11.1 CBS FORT WORTH TX 170° 17.1 19
> 
> * yellow - uhf KTXA-DT 21.1 UPN FORT WORTH TX 172° 19.6 18
> 
> * yellow - uhf KSTR-DT 49.1 UNI IRVING TX 172° 19.6 48
> 
> * yellow - uhf KPXD-DT 68.1 PAX ARLINGTON TX 174° 16.3 42
> 
> * yellow - uhf KMPX-DT 30.1 DAY DECATUR TX 40° 4.4 30
> 
> * yellow - uhf KUVN-DT 23.1 UNI GARLAND TX 173° 16.3 24
> 
> * yellow - uhf KDTN-DT 2.1 DAY DENTON TX 172° 19.6 43
> 
> * yellow - uhf KDTX-DT 58.1 TBN DALLAS TX 173° 16.3 45
> 
> * yellow - uhf KERA-DT 14.1 PBS DALLAS TX 170° 17.1 14
> 
> * yellow - uhf KFWD-DT 52.1 IND FORT WORTH TX 173° 16.4 51
> 
> * yellow - uhf KDAF-DT 33.1 WB DALLAS TX 172° 19.6 32
> 
> * yellow - uhf KDFW-DT 4.1 FOX DALLAS TX 175° 16.7 35
> 
> * lt green - uhf KLDT-DT 55.1 IND LAKE DALLAS TX 353° 12.4 54
> 
> * red - uhf KDFI-DT 27.1 IND DALLAS TX 172° 19.6 36
> 
> 
> 
> These are the digital stations off antennaweb.



The Channel Master 4221 should do just fine for most, if not all of those stations. KLDT will probably be a problem since it is the opposite direction, but at that distance, there's a chance that enough signal will "bleed through" the reflector screen to get you a solid signal.


----------



## RayL Jr.

Slight correction on accurate calcs (edited calc post above) - when you enter say a WGS84 Geodetic lat/long it has to be converted to Geocentric angles on ellipse in math calcs 1st (at the latitude/height correction). Geodetic, geodesic, geographic... references latitudes on a sphere or "Geoid". The Geoid coordinates are an accurate reference for both terrestrial & relative astronomical calcs (also use Geocentric).


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> CPCAT,
> 
> Actually, that would be 1 to 2 dB loss for a resistive combiner under optimal conditions.
> 
> Stripline combiners (hybrids) are frequency specific and not available to the general public - and that is who we are talking to on this forum. So, yes, while hybrids actually do give a net gain for combined antennas, would people who ask qustions on this forum actually go out and order a $300 device from Micro-Circuits or some other RF manufactuer that only works on part of the UHF TV spectrum?
> 
> 
> Bob C



I disagree with the numbers for loss you are giving. They aren't consistent with my experience either. How did you calculate that? Using a stripline combiner from Lindsay (see Holland's post above for links and pricing), I"ve noted a very small improvement in overall performance compared to using a splitter. This has been reproducible on multiple occasions, but it's not a very large difference. That's inconsistent with one method producing 2-3db gain and the other 2db loss irrespective of narrowed beamwidth.


Stripline low-loss combiners are also available from Triax in the U.K. Lindsay is closer and easier though. They also make a .5db loss combiner for VHF which I use. Here's a pic of the Lindsay UHF stripline combiner (combining the top two antennas); the VHF model combines the high band antennas below.


----------



## cpcat

Here's another closer up. The combiner is in the back of the picture (long and rectangular in shape).


----------



## AntAltMike

Last time I checked, Channel Master has a simple antenna joiner that they claimed had half a dB of loss, for under $20, and I'm sure Winegard had a similar product available.


I have to admit that in spite of having adequate budgets to deal with lots of combining situations, I almost never have to deal with extremely weak signals, as I have about fifteen local DTV transmitters, and generally need only to be concerned with minimizing multipath on relatively strong signals and filtering off undesired signals when integrating them into a common distribution trunkline.


----------



## pjo

*CM4228 Owners*


I was wondering if you folks could tell me how far away this thing can pull in signals from. It's listed as having a 60 mile range but was wondering if there have been folks attaining signals from even further out.....


Thanks all...


----------



## holl_ands

AntAltMike: You must mean the 0.5 dB insertion loss in the CM-0549 UHF/VHF-FM Antenna Joiner.

It uses bandpass filter techniques (like a TV/SAT Diplexer) to combine antennas

in two DIFFERENT frequency bands vice stacked antennas in same band:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm 


When looking at specs for wideband hybrid splitter/combiners (aka RF Splitter),

if they say 0.5 dB insertion loss, that is only when the two inputs are equal and in-phase.

When they are not, then the insertion loss is nominally 3.5 dB,

as cited in the above website for the CM-0538 All Band Coupler.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pjo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was wondering if you folks could tell me how far away this thing can pull in signals from. It's listed as having a 60 mile range but was wondering if there have been folks attaining signals from even further out.....



Under ideal circumstances, 150 miles is possible. But that means a mountaintop transmitter, and no mountains in the way...


There are just too many factors involved in reception to state a realistic range for an antenna. That said, many have had success at 60 miles with a 4228 under "normal" conditions.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pjo* /forum/post/0
> 
> *CM4228 Owners*...how far away this thing can pull in signals from.
> 
> Thanks all...



All but two of the stations I receive are just over 70 miles away. Depending on the help I get from atmospheric conditions, I get anywhere from a great signal to not enough for a lock.


Also, FWIW, antennas don't "pull in signals". They generate an electrical voltage from whatever signal is exciting the elements. Distant reception has much more to do with factors other than the antenna.


----------



## CountryJoe

Can anyone give me an idea of the strength of a rotor and are some more highly recommended? I currently have a 10' 1 1/4" mast mounted directly to the house. When I look at the large amount of channels available in the list from AntennaWeb, I am tempted to try one out. However, I am concerned about damage from wind, ice, etc. I went outside recently during a strong wind and watched the antenna. It swayed a bit but was very sound. I do not want to compromise the strength, but the increase in stations is tempting.


Thanks, Joe


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CountryJoe* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can anyone give me an idea of the strength of a rotor and are some more highly recommended? I currently have a 10' 1 1/4" mast mounted directly to the house. When I look at the large amount of channels available in the list from AntennaWeb, I am tempted to try one out. However, I am concerned about damage from wind, ice, etc. I went outside recently during a strong wind and watched the antenna. It swayed a bit but was very sound. I do not want to compromise the strength, but the increase in stations is tempting.



I have a 4228 with a CM 9521 rotor, which CM says is their best, but I have them mounted in my attic. No way would I put them on my roof with the vicious winds common here.


If wind is a problem, go online and find a heavy duty rotor rated for about 400 or 500 lbs. that'll cost about $200 or $300. It will be well worth it.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pjo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> CM4228 Owners
> 
> I was wondering if you folks could tell me how far away this thing can pull in signals from. It's listed as having a 60 mile range but was wondering if there have been folks attaining signals from even further out.....



My attic 4228 pulls in digital stations solid 7/24 at 125 miles and the 3,000 to 4,000 ft. Blue Ridge Mtns. are between me and the towers. Fortunately, I have a pretty high elevation.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> AntAltMike: You must mean the 0.5 dB insertion loss in the CM-0549 UHF/VHF-FM Antenna Joiner....
> 
> 
> When they are not, then the insertion loss is nominally 3.5 dB,
> 
> as cited in the above website for the CM-0538 All Band Coupler.



But the figures you cite for the CM-0538 are the figures they give for its performance as a splitter. I have seen other, old Channel Master literature where they claim .5dB loss for this product when used as a combiner, without specifying that the signals be identical and in phase.


Blonder Tongue makes something called an "alternate channel coupler", ACC-2a, that combines two sets of signals that are not identical and splits them into two outputs with just 4dB of total loss in the VHF band, which means that the combiner loses .5dB and the splitter loses 3.5dB. The product works but sells for about $100. I've never broken one open to see how they do it, and I don't know of anyone else making the same product. Spectravision (now, On Command) and Lodgenet used to use them a lot to conserve signal power in hotel "loop" distribution systems.


----------



## mikepalm

For anyone who is looking at the Terk TV44 (new model from the Terk TV42) you might want to read this message and save your self some seconds.







The Terk TV44 may work OK if you are close to 500KW and above stations, but it does nothing for the more wimpy stations at 18 miles.




I have been using a boom antenna in the attic for my HD Tivo and get all channels reliably except WSVN (7-1). It comes through most of the time, but at critical points in shows it locks up. Very annoying. Tivo says I'm getting a signal strength of 65 which is apparently not enough to give me a reliable picture. The other channels are in the 80-95 range and I see no problems.


Channel Freq Low Typical Peak


4-1 WFOR-DT 22 90 90 91

6-1 WTVJ-DT 31 90 90 92

7-1 WSVN-HD 8 66 68 68

10-1 WPLG-DT 9 82 82 84

17-1 WLRN-HD 20 95 95 95

33-1 WBFS-DT 32 90 90 92

39-1 WDZL-DT 19 88 90 91


The WSVN engineering debt. recommend I try a Terk antenna that clamps on the satellite dish so I installed a Terk TV-44 antenna last night. (The ad blurb says it installs in seconds 1800 seconds later I was done.)


As you see from the results below it didn't help and in fact I got zero signal from WSVN! I tried rotating the antenna around the dish and still zero on both Fox & ABC !!!


Channel Freq Low Typical Peak

4-1 WFOR-DT 22 81 83 85

6-1 WTVJ-DT 31 74 77 78

7-1 WSVN-HD 8 0 0 0

10-1 WPLG-DT 9 0 0 0

17-1 WLRN-HD 20 10 19 35

29-1 WFKX-DT 28 68 70 70

33-1 WBFS-DT 32 74 75 78

39-1 WDZL-DT 19 74 76 78


At least I can now get Fox from Palm beach, but now there's no ABC. So the Terk is going back!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil Laffoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also, FWIW, antennas don't "pull in signals".



I guess that depends on your interpretation of how gain works. If you look at the radiation patterns for yagis, it certainly does look like the antenna is "pulling in" the signal: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/types.html


----------



## Neil L

What I'm saying is, the transmitter pushes the signal. The receiving antenna doesn't pull it. The only "force" acting on the signal is the power from the transmitter. The higher the antenna gain, the more micro volts are sent down the feed line from whatever signal is reaching the antenna. The actual radio signal level is the same at the antenna no matter how much or how little gain the antenna has. So if the RF signal level at your place is 0, either because your too far away and the earth blocks the signal, or because something else blocks it, or because the atmosphere isn't reflecting it, etc., your antenna will generate no voltage. The antenna can't reach out and pull in a signal. It just sits there, attached to it's mast, waiting for a signal to reach it.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you look at the radiation patterns for yagis, it certainly does look like the antenna is "pulling in" the signal...



Sorry I missed this earlier. But, technically, the term "radiation pattern" only applies to the transmitter antenna. You must keep in mind that antenna design and performance is a two way thing. If a yagi antenna is used for two-way radio for example, then it has a directional radiation pattern when transmitting. When receiving, the same antennas gain pattern is similar, but it's not radiating. For reception, the graphs shows that the antenna will not produce much, if any, gain from directions outside of it's gain pattern.


----------



## holl_ands

AntAltMike: Perhaps the following description of the Magic-Tee Hybrid Transformer helps:
http://members.tripod.com/michaelgellis/magict.html 


It describes how the Hybrid coherently adds two signals with minimal loss, but only when they are equal and in-phase.

When they are not matched, some of the unbalanced signal is dissipated in the Hybrid's internal resistor.


For a schematic of the older Winegard CC-787 coupler, look at Figure 9.

You'll see that it is a Magic-Tee Hybrid Transformer:
http://www.kyes.com/antenna/stackluge.html 


I think that the Winegard quote above is about the ONLY RF Splitter/Combiner description that even comes close to the full truth when used in the "reverse" combiner mode.


As I said above, essentially all of the wide-band RF Splitter/Couplers on the market are the Hybrid type.

Exceptions would be the Lindsay and Triax Microstrip (aka Wilkinson) Couplers that only cover about an octave in the UHF band (470-860 MHz).

Other exceptions would be multiband VHF/UHF and selected channel "Antennas Joiners", that use bandpass filters to selectively merge two or more antennas.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil Laffoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When receiving, the same antennas gain pattern is similar, but it's not radiating.



Some branches of physics would beg to differ...


----------



## blackngold19

PLZ PEOPLE..NEED INPUT. i'M LOOKING AT PROPERT ABOUT 1 MILE CLOSER TO THE ANTENNAS. oNLY PROB IS THERE MIGHT BE 1 GOOD SIZED TREE RIGHT O TOP OF THE HOUSE. I KNOW THAT THIS HOUSES ELEVATION IS HIGHER FOR SURE. MY QUESTION IS..HOW DO YOU YOU KNOW IF I CAN STILL GET THE SIGANL EVEN THOUGH IM CLOSER?


----------



## rodoug




bobchase said:


> Rodoug,
> 
> 
> Three of your stations have filed to remain VHF when analog goes away. I know you watch WFAA (ABC) and KTVT (CBS). The 3rd VHF station is KERA (PBS). Almost all of your stations are down on Cedar Hill, just east of Estes Park along Rt 67, regardless of where they are licensed to. (Ft Worth, Dallas, Garland, Arlington, etc.)
> 
> 
> KLDT-DT (ch55 analog) is about 9 miles from you a little more east of Cedar Hill. Their tansmitter is probably north of Coppel up by the county line and just west of the Stemmons freeway. That's an independent station that you probably wouldn't watch but it might carry some sports (their Houston station does). So if you and hubby watch sports you might want that station too. The good news is that even off the backside of their antenna and a little off-angle from Cedar Hill on your antenna, you are going to get them with an outside antenna.
> 
> 
> The other station that is off-axis for you is KMPX (ch29 analog) another independent. Lieberman broadcasting in Houston is infomercial by day and a Hispanic independent at night. I don't know what they do in the Dallas market.
> 
> 
> As for antenna recommendations: I'd try the one you have now unless there is something wrong with it. You mentioned that you are going to feed 3 to 4 TV's. If they are all digital 'capable' TV's then the 4228 is a fine antenna, as everyone has said, even for the three VHF stations.
> 
> 
> However, if you plan on watching analog ch4 (FOX) or analog ch5 (NBC) on any set that cannot receive the digital channels, then the 4228 is a No-Go antenna for you. (an older TV in the kid's room, kitchen, or garage?) Look around at Fry's or Lowe's for a Channel Master 3016 or a Channel Master 5646 antenna. (It's the same antenna, just in different boxes.) This antenna will most likely get all of the stations at Cedar Hill, analog or digital, when it is outside above your roof. If you really want to through some money at the problem, I can recommend some other, much larger, antennas.
> 
> 
> 
> The guy that does this website does a great job of displaying the station info for you. The 'Transmitter Antenna' column shows the stations antenna pattern. (How much signal they put out in any direction.) The center is them and the red line points to you.
> 
> 
> Bob Chase
> 
> KHWB-TV
> 
> 
> ps. Gain is like horsepower in your truck. You alway want lots more right up to the point where you can't keep the shiny-side up any more. With antennas there are few situations where you can have too much Gain. Amplifiers, on the other hand, can have too much horsepower and very well put you in the ditch wondering 'How did I get here?'
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Tons!!!! You hit the nail on the head. We will have at least one analog TV and we do watch Ch 4 and 5. We are going to try the CM3016/5646 and see what we get. We might as well try the less expensive option first. You all have been a big help!!! Thanks again.


----------



## sf49ersnfl

I live in las cruces,nm which is about 40-45 miles away from the transmitters in el paso, tx. I am trying to pull in cbs hd (kdbc) which is broadcasting at 290kw with a silver sensor. I am not able to get any signal but the local fox is broadcasting from the same location at about 360kw and i can get a 70-80% signal. I was just wondering if i needed a better antenna for the silver sensor or is this transmitter just in the wrong spot and thats why im not able to pull it in. Thank you for all your help!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sf49ersnfl* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Iam trying to pull in cbs hd (kdbc) which is broadcasting at 290kw with a silver sensor. I am not able to get any signal but the local fox is broadcasting from the same location at about 360kw and i can get a 70-80% signal.



Are you sure KDBC is broadcasting at 290kw? I searched on the FCC database, and while they have an application for 290kw, they are currently listed as using an STA with 21.6kw, directionally biased. While their antenna is rather high about average terrain, I wouldn't expect the Silver Sensor to get a solid signal at 45 miles. You *might* get a better signal with a larger antenna, but only you can decide if it's worth the money for what should be a temporary (maximum 12 months) problem.


----------



## Dirac

Well, I hope someone can help me out. I've been doing a lot of reading here but this is my first attempt at OTA antenna installation.


I've ordered a CM 4228 and CM 7777 antenna/preamp and they are scheduled to arrive Wednesday. I'm about 50 miles north of Mt. Wilson in the LA metro (zip 93523). I already have my DirecTV 18"x20" oval dish mounted, so I went with the Winegard DS-1111 s-pipe mount so I could attach the antenna to the dish without having to drill more holes. Because of where I live, I am limited to attaching through the fascias along the edge of the roof, which is how my dish is secured now. This eliminates roof and wall mounting options. The house doesn't have an attic, and at 50 miles I don't think an attic mount would work anyway.


The more I look at the installation sheets for the antenna and the mount, the more I think the DS-1111 mount is not going to work. It appears that the reflector screen on the antenna will get in the way of the curve in the s-pipe. Also, I'm not sure what the wind load will be on the antenna (and it is damn windy here) so it might be a good idea to have the antenna mounted separately. But again, because of my housing situation, I would rather only have one set of screws into the house.


If it turns out I'll have to try a different mount, what can I look at? The dish is reasonably secure, but it just doesn't seem possible with the s-pipe. Also, both the dish and the antenna will almost be facing in the same direction. My house also faces south, and since I have to install on the back side of the house I might have to point it right at the roof. Actually, the dish is mounted on the west side fascia, so I thought if I put the antenna out there and pointed it south, it would have a clearer shot.


Any suggestions?


----------



## Dirac

I thought some more, and it may be more visually/structurally appealing to try a different antenna instead of a different mount. I'm still interested in alternative mounting suggestions, but if anyone has a suggestion on an outdoor antenna that can be used reliably at a 50 mile range (with the 7777 preamp) I'd appreciate that too!


I tried my Silver Sensor inside without a preamp and I can't get squat, even on the 1 MW channels.


----------



## holl_ands

Have you considered putting a tube extension on the DS-1111 to get the CM-4228 higher?


You also might want to look at the fol. DS-1000 mount with a CM-4228 plus CM-4221.

I would be concerned about overloading the mount, esp. in high winds but Winegard website

shows the bigger and heavier (and lower performing) SquareShooter being used with this mount:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1118912557 


Where's a Mechanical Engineer when you need one????


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dirac* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm about 50 miles north of Mt. Wilson in the LA metro (zip 93523).



Normal mileage estimates don't mean squat with Mount Wilson. Their transmitters are so high people have line-of-sight from 100+ miles away. As long as you're not severely blocked locally, you shouldn't have any trouble with an indoor antenna.


----------



## Dirac




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Where's a Mechanical Engineer when you need one????



I'm an aero guy, but this antenna stuff is new to me! I don't think NASA Dryden will let me use their wind tunnel to calculate a drag coefficient on a CM4228.










I was concerned about the distance because antennaweb doesn't even bring up the DT stations for my ZIP/address. I thought it was maybe some weird topographic effect here with the mountains, deserts, lakes... I don't know. I was just surprised to see nothing come up. I even put in a Palmdale ZIP (93551), still nothing DT from LA.


Analog reception indoors with my Silver Sensor gets me 18 (snowy, sometimes in color) and 64 (pretty decent, but appears to be from Barstow). Is 18 broadcast from Mt. Wilson? I saw it's over 3 MW, but there are other stations in LA with that kind of broadcast power that I can't see at all.


I might be able to get the DS-1111 to work if I have the s-pipe come at a 90 deg angle (toward the west) and have the antenna bolted perpendicularly to it (facing south). As I mentioned, I am concerned about the wind load, but this way I can clamp it down and the clamp bracket will (hopefully) prevent the antenna from rotating and the flat plate will support the weight of the antenna/amp/mast. I thought about the extension too, but I thought I might have a weight problem and didn't think lengthening the moment arm would be a good idea. If I try this, would I just take an aluminum pipe with a smaller OD and slide it into the top of the s-pipe, or should it go around the outside of it?


I am blocked locally by a few cottonwoods and an oleander. I think I can "trim" the oleander.







When I go half a mile south (out of the trees), I can see Mt. Wilson... I think. There are two peaks. What does Mt. Wilson look like from the north?


Well, I'll probably be giving this a shot over the weekend. Thanks for the suggestions!


----------



## pidge

I hate to say this but I am somewhat lost on what antenna I should get and any other amplifiers I should be using (ie amp). I would like to hook up a PC with an HDTV tuner card and two analog tv's (bedroom and living room). So total would be three devices, one digitial and two analog. I would like to buy one to mount on the roof of my house which will give me the most reception at a reasonable cost. My house is in a flat neighborhood and there aren't large trees to worry about. Here is the info I got from antennaweb:


DTV Antenna

Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live

Date Compass

Orientation Miles

From Frequency

Assignment

* yellow - uhf KICU-DT 36.1 IND SAN JOSE CA 11° 10.7 52

* yellow - uhf KKPX-DT 65.1 PAX SAN JOSE CA 296° 35.2 41

* yellow - vhf KNTV-DT 11.1 NBC SAN JOSE CA 144° 17.5 12

* yellow - uhf KDTV-DT 14.1 UNI SAN FRANCISCO CA 8° 11.3 51

* yellow - uhf KMTP-DT 33.1 IND SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 33

* yellow - uhf KSTS-DT 48.1 TEL SAN JOSE CA 8° 11.3 49

green - uhf KSTS 48 TEL SAN JOSE CA 8° 11.3 48

green - uhf KTEH 54 PBS SAN JOSE CA 11° 10.7 54

* green - uhf KTEH-DT 54.1 PBS SAN JOSE CA 11° 10.7 50

* green - uhf KQED-DT 9.1 PBS SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 30

green - uhf KDTV 14 UNI SAN FRANCISCO CA 8° 11.3 14

* green - uhf KPIX-DT 5.1 CBS SAN FRANCISCO CA 300° 39.2 29

* green - uhf KBWB-DT 20.1 WB SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 19

green - uhf KBHK 44 UPN SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 44

green - uhf KCNS 38 SAH SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 38

* green - uhf KGO-DT 7.1 ABC SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 24

green - uhf KKPX 65 PAX SAN JOSE CA 144° 17.5 65

green - uhf KICU 36 IND SAN JOSE CA 11° 10.7 36

lt green - uhf KAXT-CA 22 IND SANTA CLARA-SAN JOSE CA 84° 11.1 22

lt green - vhf KGO 7 ABC SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 7

lt green - uhf KBWB 20 WB SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 20

lt green - uhf KTSF 26 IND SAN FRANCISCO CA 296° 35.2 26

lt green - vhf KNTV 11 NBC SAN JOSE CA 144° 17.5 11

lt green - vhf KQED 9 PBS SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 9

lt green - uhf KMTP 32 IND SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 32

lt green - uhf KFSF 66 TFA VALLEJO CA 301° 39.1 66

* lt green - uhf KSMS-DT 31.1 UNI MONTEREY CA 137° 23.2 31

* red - uhf KTVU-DT 2.1 FOX OAKLAND CA 301° 39.1 56

* red - uhf KFSF-DT 66.1 TFA VALLEJO CA 301° 39.1 34

* red - uhf KRON-DT 4.1 IND SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 57

* red - uhf KTSF-DT 26.1 IND SAN FRANCISCO CA 296° 35.2 27

* red - uhf KTFK-DT 64.1 SAH STOCKTON CA TBD 348° 36.8 62

* red - uhf KCSM-DT 43.1 PBS SAN MATEO CA 301° 39.1 43

* red - uhf KCNS-DT 38.1 SAH SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 39

* red - uhf KBHK-DT 44.1 UPN SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 45

blue - uhf KFTL-CA 28 IND SAN FRANCISCO, ETC CA 11° 10.7 28

blue - vhf KPIX 5 CBS SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 5

blue - vhf KRON 4 IND SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 4

blue - uhf KTLN 68 IND NOVATO CA 313° 65.4 68

blue - vhf KTVU 2 FOX OAKLAND CA 301° 39.1 2

violet - vhf KVIE 6 PBS SACRAMENTO CA 5° 68.2 6

violet - uhf KSMS 67 UNI MONTEREY CA 133° 47.9 67

violet - uhf KTEH1 54 PBS SANTA CRUZ CA 145° 17.5 54

violet - vhf KXTV 10 ABC SACRAMENTO CA 6° 66.3 10

violet - uhf KRCB 22 PBS COTATI CA 319° 76.9 22

violet - vhf KSBW 8 NBC SALINAS CA 133° 47.9 8

violet - vhf KOVR 13 CBS STOCKTON CA 6° 66.3 13

violet - uhf KTNC 42 AZA CONCORD CA 349° 37.7 42

violet - uhf KCBA 35 FOX SALINAS CA 133° 47.9 35

violet - vhf KCRA 3 NBC SACRAMENTO CA 6° 68.1 3

violet - uhf KTFK 64 SAH STOCKTON CA 349° 37.7 64


I am attaching a picture of my house in case it matters. Anyways, I am hoping someone can help me out there. Thank you in advance.


----------



## newtothis2

I really need some answers here. Please help. I live in Russellville, Arkansas, 72801. I am trying to pick up OTA out of Little Rock. According to Antennaweb, the towers are about 48 miles away. They are all in the same place. When I get analog reception with rabbit ears, I get all of the stations in o.k., though fox is the best. When I try to get digital with the same antenna, I get CBS at about 75% and no signal for any other channels at all. I live in an apartmemt building on the first floor and an outdoor setup is absolutely not an option. I have tried several different expensive($100+) indoor antennas and none compare to the rs rabbit ears for CBS and they don't have a signal for any other channels either. I have'nt tried a silver sensor, DB-2, preamp, or amp yet.


My questions are: Should I just return this reciever and give up on OTA?


Am I too far away to use an indoor antenna?


What set-up would get me more channels?


Why can I get analog signals, but not digital?


Why does CBS come in but nothing else even has a sinal? (The towers are in the same place and I think are the same power)


Will an amp or preamp help if there is no signal to amplify?


and:


Will a DB-2 with a CM 7777 help?


Any information will be greatly appreciated


Thanks


----------



## holl_ands

Dirac: I ran some quick propagation Predictions using the (free) RADIO MOBILE propagation prediction program.


With a CM4221 and a preamp, RM predicts a 13-15 dB fade margin for KTLA-DT (WB), KNBC-DT, KOCE-DT (PBS) and KCBS-DT.

The prediction was 4-7 dB fade margin for KTBN-DT, KABC-DT, KTTV-DT (FOX) and KCOP-DT (UPN).

So there is definitely a difference between being located on Mt Wilson and being located on the nearby but "downslope" Mt Harvard.


I used the "current" transmitter power levels found in the FCC database:
www.tvradioworld.com/region1/ca/tv.asp?m=los 

KTTV-DT, KNBC-DT, KCOP-DT and KTLA-DT, are expected to increase their transmitter power in the near future

(maybe they have already???), which will improve their fade margin from 2 to 5 dB, depending on the station.


At least 10 dB and preferably 20 dB of fade margin is needed to combat multipath, local clutter loss effects and to overcome weather variations.

So the higher gain of a CM4228 might be needed if you have reception reliability problems.

The preamp's improved sensitivity will be critical to receiving LA stations, even though they are only 27 miles away.


Let us know how it goes.

I'm collecting user results to compare against antennaweb.org, which has a reputation for underpredicting digital stations.


See attachment for an example calculation (sorry about the overcompression).

Note that the signal has to diffract off of two mountain peaks before it gets to you.


Per antennaweb.org zipcode lookup, I used Palmdale location at approx Twincreek Ave and Chalfort Ln.

Unless you are up against the hill, these results should apply to the entire zipcode.


For more readable images and more info on the (FREE) RADIO MOBILE program see fol. post:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1112095186


----------



## Sumdumgi

I am confused. I just got a Dish dvr942 with local hd. I had an antenna in my attic that was 10 years old that the dish guy said would work just fine. I had anticipated him telling me I would need a new hd antenna so I purchased a Radio Shack VU75XR. He told me after installing the dish that I could just return the antenna.


What troubles me is the pq of the local dish channels whether ota or thru dish appears grainy and I thought they were supposed to be clear as HD. Was the guy lazy or trying to save me some money? I would think my locals should look as good as HD Discovery etc... Should I use the new antenna? Will this improve my pq?


Thanks


----------



## the_bear89451




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sumdumgi* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am confused. I just got a Dish dvr942 with local hd. I had an antenna in my attic that was 10 years old that the dish guy said would work just fine. I had anticipated him telling me I would need a new hd antenna so I purchased a Radio Shack VU75XR. He told me after installing the dish that I could just return the antenna.
> 
> 
> What troubles me is the pq of the local dish channels whether ota or thru dish appears grainy and I thought they were supposed to be clear as HD. Was the guy lazy or trying to save me some money? I would think my locals should look as good as HD Discovery etc... Should I use the new antenna? Will this improve my pq?
> 
> 
> Thanks



First, check to make sure you don't have your satellite locals mapped to be viewed instead of OTA. You should see a signal meter when you first tune to an OTA station. The 942 only as the ATSC tuner active, so there should be no grain. The major networks have not bought enough equipment to present every show in HD. Most to the HD content is on at prime time.


----------



## the_bear89451




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pidge* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I hate to say this but I am somewhat lost on what antenna I should get



Did you try walking around your neighborhood and asking other people with rooftop antennas for advice? Last time I was in Santa Clara, there were so many antennas, it looked like the 1970s.


----------



## Sumdumgi




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *the_bear89451* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> First, check to make sure you don't have your satellite locals mapped to be viewed instead of OTA. You should see a signal meter when you first tune to an OTA station. The 942 only as the ATSC tuner active, so there should be no grain. The major networks have not bought enough equipment to present every show in HD. Most to the HD content is on at prime time.



I am new to all this so forgive any dumb comments by me. I noticed that I have the ability to view 3 each of the same local channels. Are some ota and some are thru dish? Some are color coded blue while others are yellow.


----------



## pidge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *the_bear89451* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Did you try walking around your neighborhood and asking other people with rooftop antennas for advice? Last time I was in Santa Clara, there were so many antennas, it looked like the 1970s.



Heh. Thanks for the advice. Actually, the house is a new house I just bought in a different city. I won't be moving in there for another month but when I do, I guess I'll ask around if I haven't found an antenna to buy


----------



## Dirac




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Dirac: I ran some quick propagation Predictions using the (free) RADIO MOBILE propagation prediction program.



Thanks for running that prediction! My antenna came today and I had enough time to play with it in the garage tonight. Still no signal for any DT... spent most of my time trying to pull in 36, 48 and 60. Analog 18 comes in quite well, with just a bit of light snow. (Where is this being transmitted from?) This is again with a CM 4228 with no preamp (still scheduled for Wednesday). I'll try with the preamp on Sunday. I'll let you know what happens; thanks again for the information.


EDIT: You said 27 miles away... according to antennaweb it's more like 47. I might have confused you with my post--did you have the right ZIP/location (93523, not 93551)? Hopefully that doesn't make things a lot worse! If it takes Lat/Long, the coordinates for KEDW airport could be used:


Lat/Long: 34-54-19.8000N / 117-53-01.2400W

34-54.330000N / 117-53.020667W

34.9055000 / -117.8836778

(estimated)

Elevation: 2302 ft. / 702 m (estimated)


I will also play around with RADIO MOBILE this weekend.


----------



## holl_ands

The predictions above are for the vicinity of Palmdale, using CM-4221 4-Bay with Preamp.


Good news when I re-ran using your LAT/LONG for vicinity Rosamond Blvd and SR58.

Although it is another 30 miles away, the diffraction "down" angle is much less,

resulting in fade margins that are 3-6 dB higher. Plus a few more dB with CM-4228.

So with preamp, that puts the better stations in the ballpark of 20 dB fade margin.


I'll put together a more detailed summary in the next few days.


Re RADIO MOBILE: It isn't very difficult to get started, since the low-rez

topographic files are automatically downloaded via the Internet.

If you like it, I would also recommend joining the RM Yahoo users group.


Hi-rez topo files require manually downloading a few specific 1 x 1 degree blocks,

which then have to be unzipped into a folder. You then have to use RM's

"Options:Elevation Data" menu to point to that folder.

They recently added a BIL to SRTM converter, but I haven't tried it yet.


CH18 is probably low power (7 kW) K18HD in Bakersfield, whoever they are.


----------



## pjo




> Quote:
> I am new to all this so forgive any dumb comments by me. I noticed that I have the ability to view 3 each of the same local channels. Are some ota and some are thru dish? Some are color coded blue while others are yellow.



Yellow would probably indicate it's a local that has been scanned by your receiver. I have the 811 and I see the same thing. The blue colored channels are thru Dish. Some locals have multiple digital channels so you need to find the one that is their HD signal. Best way to do this is try viewing them during primetime. You'll find the HD channels (if the program is in HD) and then you can remove the other ones.


What I ended up doing was creating a favorites list with just the HD channels and this made things much easier.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pidge* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I hate to say this but I am somewhat lost on what antenna I should get and any other amplifiers I should be using (ie amp).



Because your stations are scattered all around you, you'll need a rotor on whatever antenna you get. This may be a pain, as you'll have to have agreement between all three televisions as to which direction you point. With that many channels in that many directions, there is no solution south of $1000 (and probably much more) that would allow you to do what cable does - just turn on the set and tune to whichever channel you want.


For UHF/VHF at your distance, I'd recommend a Winegard HD-7084P, without an amplifier of any kind. Some of your stations are far too close to use an amplifier - it will just ruin your reception.


----------



## pankaj2000

With CM 4228, I live in huntley which is 45 mile from chicago. I get sll channel

5.1,5.2,7.1,7.2,7.3,,9.1,9.2,11.1,11.2,20.1,26.1,26.2,32.1,3 8.1,38.2,38.3,38.4,38.5,44.1,50.1 but no channel 3.1 I think because it in VHF.


I got 5.1,5.2, 9.1,9.2 and 32.1 at full 100% signal.

Just let you guys, I am 100% satisfied customer with Channel master 4228.


----------



## pidge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Because your stations are scattered all around you, you'll need a rotor on whatever antenna you get. This may be a pain, as you'll have to have agreement between all three televisions as to which direction you point. With that many channels in that many directions, there is no solution south of $1000 (and probably much more) that would allow you to do what cable does - just turn on the set and tune to whichever channel you want.
> 
> 
> For UHF/VHF at your distance, I'd recommend a Winegard HD-7084P, without an amplifier of any kind. Some of your stations are far too close to use an amplifier - it will just ruin your reception.



Thank you sregener


----------



## Sumdumgi




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pjo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yellow would probably indicate it's a local that has been scanned by your receiver. I have the 811 and I see the same thing. The blue colored channels are thru Dish. Some locals have multiple digital channels so you need to find the one that is their HD signal. Best way to do this is try viewing them during primetime. You'll find the HD channels (if the program is in HD) and then you can remove the other ones.
> 
> 
> What I ended up doing was creating a favorites list with just the HD channels and this made things much easier.



Thanks pjo, will try that.


----------



## holl_ands

Dirac: Attached are detailed Fade Margin calculations for your location North of Edwards AFB, CA.

Looks like it will work some of the time but not all the time.


These more detailed results aren't anywhere near as conservative as antennaweb.org and are somewhat more pessimistic

than RADIO MOBILE when used without the benefit of the "extra" parameters found in the spread sheet.

So it is somewhere in between.


The Excel spread sheet is tailored for use in the greater Los Angeles area.
*







HOWEVER, IT CAN BE READILY ADAPTED FOR USE IN ANY LOCATION.







*


Although the (FREE) RADIO MOBILE Propagation Prediction Program can calculate a variety of results,

I have not taken the time to enter gain vs frequency for a multiplicity of antennas.

Nor is it easy to adapt it for different Noise Figures, downlead cable loss, with/without Preamp, et. al.


Hence I developed the attached Excel spread sheet in order to address each contributor to the overall gain/loss calculation.

It only requires RADIO MOBILE to calculate the TOTAL PATH LOSS and DISTANCE.

All the other parameters are entered by the user, depending on implementation specifics.


I included a detailed explanation and worked examples with/without a distribution amplifier as well as with/without a preamp (your current situation).

If you go through the calculation explanation, perhaps you'll gain an appreciation for how difficult it is to estimate some of these parameters,

such as "Attic Loss", "Noise Figure Degradation due to Antenna VSWR", "Local Clutter Loss".... [I'm still researching these topics.]

and finally how much Fade Margin is REALLY required to account for how much more SNR your receiver needs in YOUR multipath environment....









and how much is needed to overcome seasonal variations, such as those nasty inversion layers.... [Which are pretty much go/nogo when they occur.]


The goal is to see if there is a better prediction methodology than the overly conservative results provided by antennaweb.org.

So far, this methodology appears to be much more accurate at determing if a usable signal is present.

If anyone needs to determine long term reliability, the "Mode of Variability" in RADIO MOBILE can be changed from 50% to 90% values.


I included results for my son's location between Temecula and Winchester, CA.

Note the predictions agreed with actual reception results for almost all stations.









Some of the "problem" stations are known to have experienced difficulties, such as KLCS-DT and KCOP-DT.

Results were last updated in February and do not reflect the planned "Full Power" transmitter upgrades....whenever they occur.

 

LA DTV Signal Calculator RevD.zip 236.7685546875k . file


----------



## robwms63

I got an elgato 500 and got an indoor antenna as a starting point. That was only able to tune the two PBS stations and those w/occasional dropouts and the audio falling behind. I got an SR-15 from antennasdirect (their recommendation) and have been able to tune 4 and 11 now (NBC and FOX), and KCET is a little stronger (no dropouts now).


I'm 9m from Mt Wilson in the hills on the west side of the arroyo so maybe the hills are getting in the way. We tried to raise the antenna up a bit (it's on a a pole attached to my chimney).


----------



## tim quibodeaux

Im thinking about getting over the air High Def. My questin is How close do I have to be to catch these channels? What is the best antenna? What all do I need.?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tim quibodeaux* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My questin is How close do I have to be to catch these channels? What is the best antenna? What all do I need.?



Generally speaking, 60 miles is a good estimate of how far away signals reach.


Asking what is the best antenna is like asking what is the best kind of car - until you know what you need, you can't figure out which one best suits your particular situation.


At a minimum, you need an ATSC tuner (some TVs have them built in,) an antenna designed for the frequencies you want, and some coaxial cable (RG-6 is recommended) to connect the tuner to the antenna.


----------



## etcarroll




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tim quibodeaux* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Im thinking about getting over the air High Def. My questin is How close do I have to be to catch these channels? What is the best antenna? What all do I need.?



Dude - you need to do some research on your own first.


Is there even a signal close to you? Try;

www.antennaweb.org 


If yes, then start with;

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/


----------



## sf49ersnfl

Are all stations still required to be at full power by july 1st 2005 in the top 100 markets. El Paso only has fox at full power but I dont know if any of the other basics are going to be full power by then.


----------



## holl_ands

tim q: You should also check out the local thread(s) nearest your location:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=45 


Also be aware that antennaweb.org will probably miss many of the more distant DTV stations that can be received with bigger antennas and preamps.


----------



## pjo

Update on my attic antenna:


Well, I bought a CM4228 (without preamp), and swapped it with the antenna I had in the attic. It doesn't perform any better than the one I had







Is this simply a matter of me getting a preamp to go with it? The antenna I had up there is a Walmart special - Philips Mant510. It has a built in amplifier which boosts up to 50db. The Philips is currently kicking the tail out of the CM4228. My guess is I need a preamp as the towers are over 35 miles away. So far I'm not impressed by the CM4228 at all. I'm almost ready to ship it back.


Gonna play some more today and see if I can find a sweet spot with it.....hopefully it can redeem itself.....


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pjo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, I bought a CM4228 (without preamp), and swapped it with the antenna I had in the attic. It doesn't perform any better than the one I had
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is this simply a matter of me getting a preamp to go with it? The antenna I had up there is a Walmart special - Philips Mant510. It has a built in amplifier which boosts up to 50db. The Philips is currently kicking the tail out of the CM4228. My guess is I need a preamp as the towers are over 35 miles away. So far I'm not impressed by the CM4228 at all. I'm almost ready to ship it back.
> 
> 
> Gonna play some more today and see if I can find a sweet spot with it.....hopefully it can redeem itself.....



The aiming of the 4228 has to be precise. This is a very directional antenna. If you're off by just a degree or two, you can have a major performance decline.


----------



## pjo

I made some changes in the attic with the 4228. Getting ABC/NBC at 90%. CBS is hovering around 70%. I'll continue tweaking as best as I can. For a multi-directional antenna, I thought it would be better at retrieving signals from towers that are separated by 20 degrees or more. I'll post back after some more testing.....


----------



## Sumdumgi




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *the_bear89451* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> First, check to make sure you don't have your satellite locals mapped to be viewed instead of OTA. You should see a signal meter when you first tune to an OTA station. The 942 only as the ATSC tuner active, so there should be no grain. The major networks have not bought enough equipment to present every show in HD. Most to the HD content is on at prime time.



I see a signal meter when I tune to a local, such as 97% signal strength etc...

How do I make sure my locals are set to OTA? What do you mean by mapped etc...? What do you mean by no grain? What does that have to do with original questions?


Questions about my antenna; It is 10 years old but I am receiving all the digital channels thru it. My concern is that would I be getting better pq if I had a newer antenna? In other words, would a new "HD" antenna do a better job or do you really need a so-called hd antenna. It seems the tuner is what makes an antenna receive hd signals, not the antenna...is this correct?


Thanks for the help...


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pjo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For a multi-directional antenna, I thought it would be better at retrieving signals from towers that are separated by 20 degrees or more. I'll post back after some more testing.....



Multi-directional? Says who? The 4228 is one of the more directional antennas on the market. If you wanted multi-directional covering 20+ degrees, the 4221 would be a much better choice.


Compare this: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html 

to this: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4221.html


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sumdumgi* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My concern is that would I be getting better pq if I had a newer antenna? In other words, would a new "HD" antenna do a better job or do you really need a so-called hd antenna. It seems the tuner is what makes an antenna receive hd signals, not the antenna...is this correct?



Digital is pretty much an "all or nothing" medium. If you're getting a lot of blockiness (large blocks on the screen called macroblocking) often, or dropouts (i.e. the screen goes black for a second before the picture returns) then you have a problem. If you're not getting that kind of reception problem, then your antenna is already working "optimally."


In the US, digital broadcasts are on the same frequencies as analog broadcasts were. Since antennas are designed to receive a range of freqencies, there is nothing that makes an antenna "HD". Some antennas advertised as "HD" have better UHF sections on them than what used to be included, but that's the only thing that might make them better (since most digitals are on UHF and most VHF/UHF antennas have poor UHF sections.)


----------



## Sumdumgi




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Digital is pretty much an "all or nothing" medium. If you're getting a lot of blockiness (large blocks on the screen called macroblocking) often, or dropouts (i.e. the screen goes black for a second before the picture returns) then you have a problem. If you're not getting that kind of reception problem, then your antenna is already working "optimally."
> 
> 
> In the US, digital broadcasts are on the same frequencies as analog broadcasts were. Since antennas are designed to receive a range of freqencies, there is nothing that makes an antenna "HD". Some antennas advertised as "HD" have better UHF sections on them than what used to be included, but that's the only thing that might make them better (since most digitals are on UHF and most VHF/UHF antennas have poor UHF sections.)



So, If I am getting good signal strength from my old antenna then I should just keep it and return the new one, correct?


Also I am paying for locals on my hd sat, shouldnt i just discontinue that service since i am getting them ota?


----------



## pjo

Sumdumgi,


Keep the one you have and return the new one.


I'm not sure what Dish will do if you try to cancel your locals. I'd call and find out as they might charge you to do that based on whatever contract you signed with them. They don't like it when their customers 'downgrade'.


----------



## bhchan

they charge a one-time fee of $10, IIRC, so you want to lump all your downgrades together into one call.


----------



## pjo

New update on my CM4228. Ok, I didn't think this would work, but it did. I ended up pointing this thing towards Boston, which is approx 80+ miles away. Without a pre-amp, I'm getting all of their digital channels at 65% or better. Incredible. I now have 3 PBS stations (Maine, NH, MA). Channel Master rules...


----------



## sf49ersnfl

Are all stations still required to be at full power by july 1st 2005 in the top 100 markets. El Paso only has fox at full power but I dont know if any of the other basics are going to be full power by then.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sf49ersnfl* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are all stations still required to be at full power by july 1st 2005 in the top 100 markets. El Paso only has fox at full power but I dont know if any of the other basics are going to be full power by then.



Just the "Big 4", i.e. Fox, CBS, ABC, and NBC. All other stations (and all stations in markets 101 and up) have until 7/1/06.


----------



## pjo

Hmm...question about signal strength. Last night, I was pulling in 70% signal strength on all of the stations out of Boston. This morning, after not moving anything...just turning on the set, all of the stations are well below 49% and I can't lock. Was it all just luck last night? Doesn't make sense to me. The wind has certainly picked up today but I'm not sure if that has anything to do with it.....


Thoughts?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pjo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Last night, I was pulling in 70% signal strength on all of the stations out of Boston. This morning, after not moving anything...just turning on the set, all of the stations are well below 49% and I can't lock. Was it all just luck last night? Doesn't make sense to me. The wind has certainly picked up today but I'm not sure if that has anything to do with it.....



Wind can definitely mess with reception. More so if you have trees nearby. There was also a high probability of tropospheric ducting last night. See: http://home.cogeco.ca/~vem3ont22/tr_...chive/5eam.jpg 


You can check the ducting forecast here:
http://home.cogeco.ca/~dxinfo/tropo.html 


In summer, as the ground cools in the evening, inversions form in the atmosphere in the tropospheric layer, which causes the UHF signals to "bounce" back to earth, increasing distance and improving reception. As the sun rises the next morning, the ground begins to heat and the effect dissipates. Wind interferes with this effect, so it is strongest on calm evenings after hot days, but it can happen even when it is relatively cool (say, highs in the mid-40s.)


Reliable reception beyond 60 miles normally requires some help from the troposphere, as the curvature of the earth means that the signal cannot reach you direction - the ground itself is in the way. This 60 mile number varies based on broadcast antenna height, receive antenna height, and intervening terrain, but is a good, general rule.


I have, with tropospheric help, received digital stations about 250 miles away. I do, regularly but not always, get stations 75 miles away (blocked by the earth.) Daytime in the summer is the worst for long-distance reception for me.


Hope this helps clear some things up for you.


----------



## mws6468

I am looking to install my antennas in the attic of my house ( i know outside is better, but i am not that far from the towers). I am thinking of getting a DB4, and combining that with my vhf antenna, I have the combiner, but my question is... what can i use to pick up the FM stations for my stero in the basement. I see some of the Amps have a FM trap on them, can i just pull the signal off the VHF antenna and use that?


----------



## pjo

sregener,


Thanks for the info. Would a pre-amp help my cause at all?


----------



## digiblur




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pjo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I made some changes in the attic with the 4228. Getting ABC/NBC at 90%. CBS is hovering around 70%. I'll continue tweaking as best as I can. For a multi-directional antenna, I thought it would be better at retrieving signals from towers that are separated by 20 degrees or more. I'll post back after some more testing.....



I had a 4228 in the attic for a few days and I was amazed at the difference when I brought it out of the attic and put it on a pole. And I've got huge oak trees all around my yard!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mws6468* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> what can i use to pick up the FM stations for my stero in the basement. I see some of the Amps have a FM trap on them, can i just pull the signal off the VHF antenna and use that?



Any VHF antenna that gets channel 6 should receive FM (the FM dial starts at the top of channel 6.) Make sure the FM trap is "out" or "off."


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pjo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info. Would a pre-amp help my cause at all?



Depends on what the problem is. The easiest way to debug is to do the "analogs" test. Tune to an analog UHF station that is on the same tower as the digital station you're trying to receive. If the picture has lots of snow, a preamplifier is a great idea - your problem is weak signal and a preamplifier will help with that. If the picture has ghosting, though, a preamplifier will only make your digital reception worse - the problem is multipath.


Attics are very prone to multipath, and preamplifiers have a lower success rate there than outside.


You should never use a preamplifier if you are closer than 20 miles from the nearest transmitter in the amplified range (i.e. if you are amplifying VHF, the nearest VHF television station - analog or digital - or FM station is the one to measure.)


Still, if you keep your receipts, the risk is relatively low to try one out. Look for low-noise models. Most report the Channel Master 777x lineup to be the best. Beware, though, the 7775 does not even pass VHF - it blocks it completely. If you need any VHF, FM or might need them in the future, get the 7777.


----------



## mws6468




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Any VHF antenna that gets channel 6 should receive FM (the FM dial starts at the top of channel 6.) Make sure the FM trap is "out" or "off."



I have a cutenna for ch7 will the FM freq overlap that enough to pick it up. I guess i can always just entend the little wire that comes with the stero


----------



## ay221

I have a clear line of site to the tv towers all located in one spot up on the mountain. I am around 13 miles away. The frequencies I want range from channel 10 to 57. There are no other tv stations near by in other directions. What is the best type of outdoor antenna that I need? a UHF yagi? That new parabolic mesh dish? a bow tie type? Thanks.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ay221* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a clear line of site to the tv towers all located in one spot up on the mountain. I am around 13 miles away. The frequencies I want range from channel 10 to 57. There are no other tv stations near by in other directions. What is the best type of outdoor antenna that I need? a UHF yagi? That new parabolic mesh dish? a bow tie type? Thanks.



Seems like a perfect situation for a CM 4221 and no preamp to me. The 4221 is a medium range uhf antenna which is also decent for vhf 9-13.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mws6468* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a cutenna for ch7 will the FM freq overlap that enough to pick it up. I guess i can always just entend the little wire that comes with the stero



Probably not unless you are using a rotor and can turn the antenna off-axis. It will perform best for FM when rotated so it "looks" most like an FM dipole to the incoming signal.


In addition, FM can be tricky to combine with the rest of the signals unless you're not using a preamp as it tends to overload easily (almost all of us have at least one FM station very close).


----------



## jimc705




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ay221* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a clear line of site to the tv towers all located in one spot up on the mountain. I am around 13 miles away. The frequencies I want range from channel 10 to 57. There are no other tv stations near by in other directions. What is the best type of outdoor antenna that I need? a UHF yagi? That new parabolic mesh dish? a bow tie type? Thanks.



I agree with CPCAT the 4221 should be on the antenna you need. Stay away from the gimicky antennas.


----------



## Kamakzie

I was wondering if you guys had an opinion on this antenna that is being sold on eBay.

http://cgi.*********/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...784537849&rd=1 


My rotor just gave out on my big channel master and it would be nice to rotate an antenna again and this one costs about the same for a new rotor and includes this weird looking antenna. I read the guys feedback and the people that bought it seem to be pleased including one guy that says he receives stations up to 50 miles. I live around 40 from all my locals..


----------



## Kamakzie

the **'s = ebay. com


----------



## ay221

Thanks guys, I think I will give it a try considering how cheap of price it is. It's marked as LD, but I bet its really a medium like you said.


----------



## bernieoc

Why does 'antenna web' have a compass orientation different than the site that uses longitude and latitude plus degree declenation to give you direction from your site to antenna? Which do I use?


----------



## ay221

One last question. You said no preamp. If I have a splitter to go to two tvs would a preamp then be needed?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bernieoc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Why does 'antenna web' have a compass orientation different than the site that uses longitude and latitude plus degree declenation to give you direction from your site to antenna? Which do I use?



I guess it depends on whether they are including the magnetic drift in their calculation - magentic north isn't the same as "true" north.


You should never take such directions as "gold." Always aim the antenna by checking your signal either with a digital tuner or by watching the analog signals.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ay221* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> One last question. You said no preamp. If I have a splitter to go to two tvs would a preamp then be needed?



Possibly, depending on how much total cable run you have and whether you have RG6 or RG59 in the house. Pick up the CM 3042 line amp at Lowe's (if necessary) and put it inside just before the split. It's a very good line/distribution amp and will be more resistant to overload than a preamp. At 13 miles, you'll likely overload if you use a preamp.


Even distibution/line amps can sometimes be affected by FM. If you use the line amp, you may benefit from an FM trap just ahead of it's input. In your application, using the "hi" port of a hi/lo combiner will work well. This will filter out everything below channel 7 (FM, channels 2-6). Hi/Lo combiner available from Pico see http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf . It's around 3 dollars plus shipping.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bernieoc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Why does 'antenna web' have a compass orientation different than the site that uses longitude and latitude plus degree declenation to give you direction from your site to antenna? Which do I use?



In my experience, http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp is very accurate, to around 1-2 degrees. It's important to find your exact lat/long. Go to http://terraserver.microsoft.com/ and put in your address. For long distance, a rotor is very helpful for fine tuning your aim regardless.


Like was said above, use your analogs to double check things. With a rotator, it's easy to find the "center" of your aim with digital signals as well simply by rotating slowly through the signal, then rotating back half that distance.


----------



## bernieoc

The reason I ask about the compass difference is that it is 17 deg. But I agree I ill look for the 'right' direction.

The real problem I am trying to solve is the following. Current antenna is RS VU190XR with CM 7777 receiving Ch 3,18, 30 & 36 from one point 47 miles away and Ch 20 & 34 from 30 deg away at 23 miles.

I am going thru trees and must redirect by seasons and lots of drop outs in wind rain etc. ch 20 & 34 are not effected and perhaps any antenna will pick them up.

A good directional UHF should solve the 18,30&36 - but what about 3? A separate low channel VHF antenna with the cm7777 combining them?One last caveat - ch 34 has requested to go to ch 13 in their first round pick. The 7777 would filter out 13 and the VHF would not pick it up (ch 34 being close and strong might overcome this?)

A little complicated but I know some of you may have suggestions that have alluded me.

Thanks for listening.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bernieoc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The reason I ask about the compass difference is that it is 17 deg. But I agree I ill look for the 'right' direction.
> 
> The real problem I am trying to solve is the following. Current antenna is RS VU190XR with CM 7777 receiving Ch 3,18, 30 & 36 from one point 47 miles away and Ch 20 & 34 from 30 deg away at 23 miles.
> 
> I am going thru trees and must redirect by seasons and lots of drop outs in wind rain etc. ch 20 & 34 are not effected and perhaps any antenna will pick them up.
> 
> A good directional UHF should solve the 18,30&36 - but what about 3? A separate low channel VHF antenna with the cm7777 combining them?One last caveat - ch 34 has requested to go to ch 13 in their first round pick. The 7777 would filter out 13 and the VHF would not pick it up (ch 34 being close and strong might overcome this?)
> 
> A little complicated but I know some of you may have suggestions that have alluded me.
> 
> Thanks for listening.



In that situation I'd go with the Antennasdirect XG 91 on a rotator with a medium range wide band vhf fixed around 60 inches below such as the Antennacraft 3BG17 . This should do fine now and in the future for you based on what you said above.


----------



## holl_ands

ay211: No preamp, even with loss in downlead and a couple splitters.

You are way too close to the broadcast towers.


----------



## Beagle97

Heya everyone. I've been researching what to do antenna-wise for our house in order to get into HD OTA broadcasts. I'm pretty new to all this, and it even took my wife to explain some things to me I had never understood before.


I'm trying to decide between a Winegard Squareshooter with 12 db amp mounted outside at the roofline of two story house--or a Channelmaster 4228 mounted in the attic (not sure about amp). Our roof is tile.


I do not know which would be more effective, and I would like to get a strong signal on the channels.


To quote from another post of someone who lives very near me: "am actually in Roseville (95678) about 35 miles from the towers (all located in the same direction). I live in a very suburban neighborhood with CC&R's that prohibit rooftop antenna's (I know, I could fight that if I want...)". He mounted a Squareshooter on the roof and then added a preamp to strengthen a couple of the signals.


I'm hoping to get digital channels 3.1, 6.1, 10.1, 13.1, 40.1, 58.1. Out of those, 6.1, 10.1, and 58.1 are green for my location on antennaweb, the others are yellow. All are 35 miles away in the same direction. If I were to guess, it doesn't seem that there is all that much in the way between my house and where the towers are.


Also the Squareshooter would be harder to mount, would be outside in the elements, and I would have to figure out how to get the wire back into the house--but the wire would only have to run about 20 ft.


The 4228 would be easier to mount in the attic, would be protected from the elements, but I would have to run the wire maybe 50 feet.


Any opinions on this to help me?


Thanks!


----------



## Dirac

No luck in the garage with the preamp. I did a quick analog test with the amp installed and got some signal from 7 (KABC), but that was it. I turned it toward Bakersfield and got watchable signal from 23 (KERO) and 29 (KBAK), but nothing for their digital equivalents. Unfortunately, Bakersfield is DMA #130 so the new deadline won't help me anytime soon. I'll try tomorrow or Tuesday outside with the DBS mount. Bakersfield is 50.5 and LA is 48.5 from my location, but it appears my surroundings are more favorable to reception from Bakersfield. I'm not giving up yet.... thanks again holl_ands for the info.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Beagle97* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Heya everyone. I've been researching what to do antenna-wise for our house in order to get into HD OTA broadcasts. I'm pretty new to all this, and it even took my wife to explain some things to me I had never understood before.
> 
> 
> I'm trying to decide between a Winegard Squareshooter with 12 db amp mounted outside at the roofline of two story house--or a Channelmaster 4228 mounted in the attic (not sure about amp). Our roof is tile.
> 
> 
> I do not know which would be more effective, and I would like to get a strong signal on the channels.
> 
> 
> To quote from another post of someone who lives very near me: "am actually in Roseville (95678) about 35 miles from the towers (all located in the same direction). I live in a very suburban neighborhood with CC&R's that prohibit rooftop antenna's (I know, I could fight that if I want...)". He mounted a Squareshooter on the roof and then added a preamp to strengthen a couple of the signals.
> 
> 
> I'm hoping to get digital channels 3.1, 6.1, 10.1, 13.1, 40.1, 58.1. Out of those, 6.1, 10.1, and 58.1 are green for my location on antennaweb, the others are yellow. All are 35 miles away in the same direction. If I were to guess, it doesn't seem that there is all that much in the way between my house and where the towers are.
> 
> 
> Also the Squareshooter would be harder to mount, would be outside in the elements, and I would have to figure out how to get the wire back into the house--but the wire would only have to run about 20 ft.
> 
> 
> The 4228 would be easier to mount in the attic, would be protected from the elements, but I would have to run the wire maybe 50 feet.
> 
> 
> Any opinions on this to help me?
> 
> 
> Thanks!



I presume none of those stations are broadcasting a digital signal in the VHF frequencies, right?


The SquareShooter outside is your best bet. The 4228 is a better antenna, but an attic mount will block about 99% of the signal. Yes, about 99%. At 35 miles, the SquareShooter should perform well.


Ideally, of course, the 4228 outside would be my choice, if at all possible.










Now all that said, I think a 4228 in the attic with a good preamp would probably work too; if you're not getting a lot of multipath problems and if the location in your attic would limit any reflections from things like air handlers or other metal stuff up there.


But I'd go the SquareShooter route first; that will give you a much better signal.


----------



## Bill Johnson

Normally, I'd advise Beagle first to try an attic 4228 with only a dist. amp to hopefully avoid a host of outside problems, to save money compared to a SquareShooter, and to get a good signal contrary to conventional wisdom that you lose some or all of the signal in the attic. But those roof tiles may be a real signal blockage problem and going with an outside SS could be the only option.


----------



## sandpj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dswallow* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I presume none of those stations are broadcasting a digital signal in the VHF frequencies, right?
> 
> 
> The SquareShooter outside is your best bet. The 4228 is a better antenna, but an attic mount will block about 99% of the signal. Yes, about 99%. At 35 miles, the SquareShooter should perform well.
> 
> 
> Ideally, of course, the 4228 outside would be my choice, if at all possible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now all that said, I think a 4228 in the attic with a good preamp would probably work too; if you're not getting a lot of multipath problems and if the location in your attic would limit any reflections from things like air handlers or other metal stuff up there.
> 
> 
> But I'd go the SquareShooter route first; that will give you a much better signal.



My situation is identical and I've struggled with the 4228 or SS. Would you recommend the SS1000 or SS2000? The SS2000 with included preamp is less expensive, but I've read where the SS1000 provides better results.


Thx...Paul


----------



## Beagle97

Thanks for the replies!!


I am not all that handy at home projects so I will hope to get this done the first try with a Squareshooter outside. Your answers are pretty clear which is a stronger solution to my situation.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dswallow* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I presume none of those stations are broadcasting a digital signal in the VHF frequencies, right?



I had no idea what the answer was to this at first. But after looking again at antennaweb, I'm guessing all the digital channels I listed are in uhf frequency, from 25 to 61.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sandpj* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My situation is identical and I've struggled with the 4228 or SS. Would you recommend the SS1000 or SS2000? The SS2000 with included preamp is less expensive, but I've read where the SS1000 provides better results.



Paul, when I looked at prices, the SS1000 was less expensive than the SS2000. I don't know which is better though.


Thanks again for the help!! =) =)


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dirac* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No luck in the garage with the preamp. I did a quick analog test with the amp installed and got some signal from 7 (KABC), but that was it. I turned it toward Bakersfield and got watchable signal from 23 (KERO) and 29 (KBAK), but nothing for their digital equivalents. Unfortunately, Bakersfield is DMA #130 so the new deadline won't help me anytime soon. I'll try tomorrow or Tuesday outside with the DBS mount. Bakersfield is 50.5 and LA is 48.5 from my location, but it appears my surroundings are more favorable to reception from Bakersfield. I'm not giving up yet.... thanks again holl_ands for the info.



Looking back at your original post, it looks like you need an honest to goodness outdoor antenna mount with as much height as is practical or you're likely to be frustrated. The CM 4228 with the CM 7777 certainly should be a good start. Go here for more info on reception from Mt. Wilson: http://www.atechfabrication.com/reception_solutions.htm 


If you want access to more than one market, the best solution is a rotator.


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sandpj* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My situation is identical and I've struggled with the 4228 or SS. Would you recommend the SS1000 or SS2000? The SS2000 with included preamp is less expensive, but I've read where the SS1000 provides better results.
> 
> 
> Thx...Paul



I really don't know the specs on the SS2000's included preamp, and that would be relatively important in suggesting whether to avoid it and go for an external preamp instead (presuming a preamp is even needed).


At about 31-32 miles, with no obstructions between me and the broadcast towers, I find the SS1000 outside with no preamp involved performs at least as well as my CM4228 in the attic that has a CM7777 preamp.


Every situation has something unique, so it's difficult to apply one persons experience with one given set of equipment to anothers.


If it were me, and I had to pick hardware I would not be able to return for credit, I'd buy the SS1000 and try it alone, then buy the CM7777 preamp if I felt a preamp were necessary. Actually, if I could place an antenna like the CM4228 outside, I would go right for it to begin with and avoid the SS1000 completely.


Keep in mind the preamp does nothing to increase the chances of receiving any given signal; it's purely for compensating for additional losses through your cabling and distribution system. Theoretically if you placed your receiver right at the antenna and were not able to tune a signal a preamp would do nothing to help you (i.e.; it's not going to make a signal magically appear out of nothingness). In the real world, there might be some small benefit sometimes, depending on the particular tuner's circuitry. But as a rule of thumb, don't expect a preamp to do anything magical.


You can have too much signal and overload a preamp or a receiver. And a preamp is amplifying noise and introducing some noise of its own, too, so avoiding them when they're not necessary helps you.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RayL Jr.* /forum/post/0
> 
> *Any other models to recommend or those listed to comment on?*



Ray, Very nice work.


I would like to point out the Winegard PR-9032 is a top performing UHF antenna and can be purchased for a lot less than the imports.


For the DIY's: If you have low signal levels in your area then construct yourself a 1/2 wave coaxial balun for the very last dB in signal level.


----------



## whosyourbaba

Hi guys


i can't determine which is the best indoor antenna for me. I live only like 5 miles away. In chicago, il. So everything is real close to me. Been looking at terks, ss, radio shack. but there is so many out there, need some recommandations and which ones would be best for me. also im in the basement. i was leaning towards a terk HDTVi or maybe a Samsung TV5.2. thanks a lot.


tom


----------



## holl_ands

If you moved your HDTV or OTA STB next to the antenna, a preamp would provide about 4-7 dB improvement in sensitivity.

That is a very significant improvement. However, for most people the difference is much larger.


An HDTV or OTA STB implementation must be designed to operate in a wide variety of signal conditions,

the result is that the tuner design must accomodate high signal levels, rather than provide the ultimate in receiver sensitivity.

If you are far enough away from a broadcast transmitter to avoid overload problems,

a preamp will almost always improve your reception in two ways:


a. A Preamp (N.F. = 2-4 dB) has much better sensitivity than an HDTV or OTA STB (N.F. = 7-10 dB),

providing a typical Total System Noise Figure under 3 dB, compared to 15-20 for a typical system without a Preamp.

Noise Figure (N.F.) is a measure of how much sensitivity is degraded compared to the thermal noise floor.

The Preamp decreases the sensitivity degradation due to loss in the downlead,

RF Splitters and HDTV/STB Noise Figure by the amount of Gain in the Preamp.


If you don't have a preamp, the Total System Noise Figure is probably in the ballpark of 15-20 dB.

It is the simple sum of the loss in the balun transformer (about 1.5 dB, if used),

the loss in the downlead (approx 3-5 dB per 100 ft of RG-6), the loss in various RF Splitters

(approx 4 dB for each 2-Way and 8 dB for each 4-Way)

and finally the Noise Figure of the HDTV or OTA STB (typically 7 to 10 dB per ATSC tuner manu. spec sheets).


b. Additional degradation in sensitivity (perhaps 2-6 dB) due to VSWR reflections up and down the downlead cable,

that would not be a problem with a Preamp mounted very close to the antenna.

These kind of reflections were found to degrade the ATSC broadcast signals,

requiring extemely well controlled VSWR in transmit antenna systems

and even sophisticated feedback systems that determined how much pre-distortion

needs to be added at the exciter in order to cancel the degradation.

See pgs 63+ in fol. for more info: http://www.atsc.org/news_information/papers.html 

Performance Assessment of the ATSC Transmission Sys, Equip. & Future Directions, 12Apr01.


Earlier, on 6/8/05, I posted a detailed Excel Spread Sheet Calculator that addressed these issues.


----------



## Rack




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whosyourbaba* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi guys
> 
> 
> i can't determine which is the best indoor antenna for me. I live only like 5 miles away. In chicago, il. So everything is real close to me. Been looking at terks, ss, radio shack. but there is so many out there, need some recommandations and which ones would be best for me. also im in the basement. i was leaning towards a terk HDTVi or maybe a Samsung TV5.2. thanks a lot.
> 
> 
> tom



I'd try something like this first:
http://www.usahardware.com/inet/shop...ni/mant250.htm 

You shouldn't need a lot of gain that close, and the 44" rabbit ears are a perfect match for WBBM-DT 3. It should be around locally, I found mine at Menards.


Come join us in the Chicago thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8&page=1&pp=30 

if you need more help.


----------



## gpcopy

Hi I am from Northern New Jersey less than 20 miles from New York City. I have an outdoor VHF/UHF antenna on my roof about 25ft off the ground. I used antennaweb to help me point my antenna in the right direction. The channels broadcast from 159-163 degree direction and from 12-15 miles away. I use a used Panasonic Digital Television Decoder TU-DST51 which I bought really cheap. I went to setup and auto scanned the stations. I get all the major networks except no PBS. I do get a signal from PAX but the channel is not available. Unfrtunatley there is no signal meter. The only problem I have is that some days the signal is great and sometimes its pixilation city! Cuts out and comes back. A plane flys by to a nearby airport I lose signal for a few seconds. Its annoying. Now from the articles I read here I am too close for a Pre-Amp. I do have trees in the direction the antenna points. I checked another website Broadcast Television Search where you have to put the Longitude and Latitude which the showed actual maps and power kw from the stations.


Does anyone have any suggestions how I can stop or reduce the fluctuations with the signals? And I did notice that the stations thatare lower kw pixilate more than the higher kw stations.


Any help will be GREAT.


GPCOPY


----------



## sandpj




dswallow said:


> I really don't know the specs on the SS2000's included preamp, and that would be relatively important in suggesting whether to avoid it and go for an external preamp instead (presuming a preamp is even needed).
> 
> The SS2000 preamp specs are 12db gain and 2.8 db S/N. Winegard offers the HDP 269 preamp (12db gain and 3db S/N) for approx the same price as the CM7777 (26db gain and 2db S/N). My cable run will be about 60 ft. What type of gain would be appropriate for that type of run? I'll be feeding a D* HD Tivo.
> 
> 
> At about 31-32 miles, with no obstructions between me and the broadcast towers, I find the SS1000 outside with no preamp involved performs at least as well as my CM4228 in the attic that has a CM7777 preamp.
> 
> I am actually 40 miles from the towers with a one story house. The 4228 on the roof will not pass the WAF test. While I read great things of the 4228 in the attic, I think I will need maximum height which may be best achieved with the SS on the chimney.
> 
> 
> If it were me, and I had to pick hardware I would not be able to return for credit, I'd buy the SS1000 and try it alone, then buy the CM7777 preamp if I felt a preamp were necessary. Actually, if I could place an antenna like the CM4228 outside, I would go right for it to begin with and avoid the SS1000 completely.
> 
> Your comments are quite helpful in understanding the role of the preamp. Based on my 60 ft cable run and the preamp choices, do you still think the SS1000 alone would be a viable option?
> 
> 
> Thx..Paul


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sandpj* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Your comments are quite helpful in understanding the role of the preamp. Based on my 60 ft cable run and the preamp choices, do you still think the SS1000 alone would be a viable option?



I think the SS1000 alone would be pushing the limits.


I'd go with the SS2000 or an SS1000 and CM7777 to start.


----------



## RayL Jr.

Thanks for the info & compliment Wendell!







Good suggestion, balanced connections also help in pro audio installs (high power, long multiple runs..), also info from Rane on how balanced/unbalanced works w/transformers. Here's 1 antenna link:

*Feeder radiation - installing a 1/2 wave coaxial transformer or choke balun*


----------



## plumeria




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you moved your HDTV or OTA STB next to the antenna, a preamp would provide about 4-7 dB improvement in sensitivity.
> 
> That is a very significant improvement. However, for most people the difference is much larger.



Thanks Holl_ands for your excellent and informative posting. Very interesting how those dB losses can start to add up.. it's a wonder we get a picture at all!


peter


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gpcopy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I use a used Panasonic Digital Television Decoder TU-DST51 which I bought really cheap. I went to setup and auto scanned the stations. I get all the major networks except no PBS. I do get a signal from PAX but the channel is not available. Unfrtunatley there is no signal meter. The only problem I have is that some days the signal is great and sometimes its pixilation city!



You don't say what kind of antenna you have, but you may need a better one to get your current receiver to work reliably. There may be *no antenna* that will solve your problems, however.


The reason you got that Panasonic so cheap is because it is a horrible OTA tuner. Replacing it with a quality Zenith of LG model would probably solve all of your reception problems.


----------



## digiblur

Anyone know what happened to my TV stations that used to be listed here?

http://www.2150.com/broadcast/defaul...=Show+Stations


----------



## RayL Jr.

Thanks again Wendell.







I'm not too familiar with antenna baluns, but pretty much understand the "electronics"...


I also read from this link on transformer & coax baluns (bottom 1/3 page) the coax balun is more frequency specific & transformer balun is broadband. This transformer balun link *Baluns & Centre Connectors (Balanced/dipole antenna to Unbalanced Circuits)* seemed to help me see it better...


So I'd assume the coax is a nice cheap way for pulling in lower/difficult channels or a specific "boost" (or noise attenuation) to 1 channel?


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RayL Jr.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So I'd assume the coax is a nice cheap way for pulling in lower/difficult channels or a specific "boost" (or noise attenuation) to 1 channel?



Ray,


I took a lot of liberty when reference was made to a coaxial balun. It was assumed a DIY would be a technical person.


As to the 1/2λ Coaxial Balun being narrowband, that is correct for the context the author is referring to (Amateur Radio 80 to 10 meter band [~3 to 30 MHz] or ~3.3 octaves). UHF TV channel 14 to 59 is 470 to 740 MHz, that is less than 1 octave. I did a simulation of a 1/2λ coaxial balun in Electronic Workbench and the Bode Plot showed 0 dB of loss at the design channel of 52 (700 MHz), -1.76 dB at channel 14, and -0.05 dB at channel 59. The very best broadband baluns (ferrite core) have an insertion loss of 1.25 to 1.5 dB.


For me: In my area the most desired OTA digital channel is 52, the local CBS affiliate. They have a figure 8 pattern and not much EPR. I am in the null of the pattern and about 20 miles away. I tried to use my old and trusty Channel Master 4 bay bow tie (3021) but could not get reliable reception. Next I tried a Channel Master 4248 and it was no better.


Then I procured a Winegard PR-9032, constructed a 1/2λ coaxial balun and installed. It received channel 52 very well (59 to 65% on MIT MDP-120's). I then installed a Winegard AP-4700 pre amp so that I could install several signal splitters. This has been working very well for 1-1/2 years.


At the time all of this was done I was still employed and had the luxury of a Tektronix RFM151 TV channel signal level meter and analyzer and a Hewlett-Packard spectrum analyzer to test with.


73's

WA5RMP


----------



## mojo1759

I live on the 15th floor of a condo building in downtown Minneapolis. What would be the best indoor HDTV antenna I could get?


I have been looking at the


samsung TV 5.2 and samsung TV 5.4, but I am open to any antenna that would work well.


I am purchasing the 42" Sony Wega LCD


Please Advise


Thank You


----------



## jhixson

Hope this isn't a stupid question. I am about 30 miles from the transmitters. If I put an antenna outside near the satellite receiver I would be aiming through my neighbors concrete block 2 story house and would have to use one of the smaller antennas. They will not allow an antenna on the front of the house unless I hid it in the flower bed. Which is worse aiming through my neighbors house or putting an antenna in the attic where I only have the shingle roof to deal with?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mojo1759* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What would be the best indoor HDTV antenna I could get?



Two of the best indoor antennas: Zenith Silver Sensor, AntennasDirect DB2.


Any amplified antenna is going to blow chunks at your location.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jhixson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I put an antenna outside near the satellite receiver I would be aiming through my neighbors concrete block 2 story house and would have to use one of the smaller antennas. They will not allow an antenna on the front of the house unless I hid it in the flower bed. Which is worse aiming through my neighbors house or putting an antenna in the attic where I only have the shingle roof to deal with?



I'd guess you'd be better in the attic. You'd have height and less materials to go through.


But who is this mysterious "they" who think they can tell you where you can put your antenna? The FCC might have something to say about that: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html


----------



## mojo1759

Thanks for your response on the Indoor Antenna.


Why would any indoor antenna be bad at my condo?


I am on the 15th floor and less that 8 miles from the antenna.


Here are the specs of the antenna I am looking at -


-20dB amplified gain delivers balanced reception throughout UHF

-75 ohm gold-plated connectors

- Height-adjustable base helps prevent unwanted multipath signal corruption for ultra-clear HDTV signal


Has anyone heard reviews of the Samsung TV5.2 or 5.4


Thanks for you help...........


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *digiblur* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyone know what happened to my TV stations that used to be listed here?
> 
> http://www.2150.com/broadcast/defaul...=Show+Stations



Check the box to include expired records; it seems to take the FCC awhile to update their database with new info, so all those records shown to expire 6/1/2005 won't be listed right now without marking that checkbox.


----------



## the_bear89451




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mojo1759* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> -20dB amplified gain delivers balanced reception throughout UHF



A high power station can easily overload your antenna's built-in amplifier. An amplifier on the antenna itself is only needed for a long cable run or if your TV has a poor amp.


----------



## mojo1759

Would it wreck my TV if I purchase this amplified antenna?


Should I look at another antenna?


Thanks


----------



## the_bear89451




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mojo1759* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Would it wreck my TV if I purchase this amplified antenna?
> 
> 
> Should I look at another antenna?
> 
> 
> Thanks



It is very unlikely you will cause any damage to the TV. It is more likely you simply will not be able to watch anything. I suggest getting a variety of antennas (including the classic $3 loop) from a store with a lenient return policy to try out.


----------



## mojo1759

Which antennas would do you recommend?


Everyone that I have talked to has said that I "need to get an *Amplified Antenna*"


The main reason I am asking is because the one that I am looking at (Samsung TV5.2) is the antenna that was recommended to me by the manager at Best Buy. They are selling it for $100 and it is selling for $5-$15 on Ebay.


I don't want to order it or buy it if it is a bad antenna.


I am very new to all this stuff and don't want to purchase the wrong antenna.


Please advise!


----------



## the_bear89451




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mojo1759* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Which antennas would do you recommend?
> 
> 
> Everyone that I have talked to has said that I "need to get an *Amplified Antenna*"
> 
> 
> The main reason I am asking is because the one that I am looking at (Samsung TV5.2) is the antenna that was recommended to me by the manager at Best Buy. They are selling it for $100 and it is selling for $5-$15 on Ebay.
> 
> 
> I don't want to order it or buy it if it is a bad antenna.
> 
> 
> I am very new to all this stuff and don't want to purchase the wrong antenna.
> 
> 
> Please advise!



Do you have line-of-sight (LOS) to the transmitting antenna? In another words, can you see the transmitting antenna from the room with the TV? If you do not have LOS, there are too many factors that effect reception that I think trial and error is the best method to find the right antenna. It is possible that amplifying the antenna will improve reception, but it is also possible that the amplifier will make reception worse.


----------



## Dirac

If there are no obstructions between you and Shoreview, you almost certainly do not need an amplified antenna at 8 miles. Both your height and the antenna height will be to your advantage. If there is a building in between you and the towers, you might be able to get a reflected signal from another nearby building, but that's going to be trial and error.


Swing by Sears and pick up a Silver Sensor and give it a try (sold as Zenith brand). I've also seen them at a few Circuit City stores but I don't know about up there. The fact that a Best Buy manager is recommending a $100 antenna that's worth $10 should be a big tip-off.


----------



## holl_ands

Since Samsung TV5.2 can be purchased NEW for under $50, BestBuy's price is pure profit.

The Samsung TV5.4 can be purchased NEW for even less (try www.pricegrabber.com ).


But both of these are amplified indoor antennas and will be subject to signal overload in your location.


The best UNAMPLIFIED indoor UHF antennas (both under $35 delivered new per www.pricegrabber.com )

are the Zenith ZHDTV1 (Philips PZHDTV1) Silver Sensor ($40 at Sears & WalMart)

or the similiar Terk HDTVi ($47 at Bestbuy, $40 at Circuit City) that has the added benefit of a pair of rabbit ears

that can be adjusted for the best picture with VHF channels (2-13).


----------



## holl_ands

What would be the loss for a coaxial balun best cut to cover the entire UHF band?

Do your simulation results assume a particular antenna....or a perfect 300 ohm source?


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jhixson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Which is worse aiming through my neighbors house or putting an antenna in the attic where I only have the shingle roof to deal with?



I'm always amazed at the negative comments about attic antennas. They beat the socks off going outside in nearly every respect and please don't tell ME shingled roofs block out signals up to 90% or even higher. Balderdash with a capital B! My experience shows this is flat out wrong by about 90%; and I feel digital newcomers are too frequently led astray from easy HD solutions in the attic.


----------



## mojo1759

Thanks for your help!


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: Most 4:1 Coaxial Balun discussions are for Ham radio applications trying to match

a 50 ohm transmitter to a nominal 200 ohm impedance antenna.

A 4:1 Coaxial Balun of the correct length can also be used to match a nominal 300 ohm

UHF antenna to a 75 ohm preamp or downlead cable.


See fol. for a diagram of a Half-Wave Coaxial Balun and a handy Calculator:
http://n-lemma.com/calcs/dipole/balun.htm 

Note the default velocity factor (0.66) is for solid polyethelene insulator found in RG-6.


See fol. for on-air DTV test with various length Coax Baluns:
http://www.atechfabrication.com/test...21cd_tests.htm 

and entry point to purchase custom made Coax Baluns ($40):
http://www.atechfabrication.com/reception_solutions.htm 


Also see fol. Half-Wave Balun compared to wider bandwidth, low loss, Log Periodic Balun:
http://palgong.kyungpook.ac.kr/~ysyoon/Pdf/weif_03.pdf


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill Johnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm always amazed at the negative comments about attic antennas. They beat the socks off going outside in nearly every respect and please don't tell ME shingled roofs block out signals up to 90% or even higher.



Attics present a couple of problems. First, there is usually a fair bit of metal up there, and metal reflects radio waves. Result? Multipath. Secondly, the roofing materials can block a large amount of the signal. 50% is a minimum. Now, that's not 50% on your signal meter on your HD set. That's 50% in absolute, electrical numbers, measured in dB. You will lose a minimum of 3dB of signal by going through roofing, and if your materials are poor, even more. Finally, rooves accumulate moisture (snow/ice) which can absorb, reflect or deflect radio signals.


If I had a dime for every time someone posted a, "Everything worked just fine, but now suddenly I can't get anything" and the problem was related to the install being in an attic, I'd be a wealthy man.


Attics can and do work for many people. But they are less likely to succeed without trial and error, they are more likely to have problems related to variability, and they can introduce problems that you don't have when you're outside. Add to this the fact that you can add 8-10' to your install by being outside (because you don't have a roof in the way), and I think most people should install outdoors. The benefits far outweigh the relatively minor corrosion problems that lead to needing to replace the antenna every ten years or so for optimum performance.


----------



## j_buckingham80




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Attics can and do work for many people. But they are less likely to succeed without trial and error, they are more likely to have problems related to variability, and they can introduce problems that you don't have when you're outside. Add to this the fact that you can add 8-10' to your install by being outside (because you don't have a roof in the way), and I think most people should install outdoors. The benefits far outweigh the relatively minor corrosion problems that lead to needing to replace the antenna every ten years or so for optimum performance.




Yes, but one thing about Attic Antennas that I find really nice, is the lack of exposure to wind and lightening. That's worth quite a bit at least to me right there. I think it's more what works for you is what you need to go with, Attic Antennas that work, much easier to maintain and more worry free than an outdoor antenna.


----------



## Bill Johnson

As long as there's OTA reception, I doubt the attic versus outside arguments will ever be resolved. But I just think HD newcomers are often royally poorly served by claims about signal blockage and multipath in attics.


That digital signal has kept its act together for 60, 80, and for me even 125 miles through mind-boggling amounts of particulates, water vapor, air perturbations, etc., etc. and has reached my roof. Is it gonna allow a mere 1/16 inch of shingle, 1 inch of plywood, and maybe 2 inches of snow to block it or knock it out of whack? I don't think so!


----------



## dswallow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill Johnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm always amazed at the negative comments about attic antennas. They beat the socks off going outside in nearly every respect and please don't tell ME shingled roofs block out signals up to 90% or even higher. Balderdash with a capital B! My experience shows this is flat out wrong by about 90%; and I feel digital newcomers are too frequently led astray from easy HD solutions in the attic.



Roofs, including the plywood, shingles, asphalt paper, nails and other materials block as much as 99% of the signal. That's simply fact backed up by actual tests.


But that doesn't mean that 1% of the signal isn't good enough to be processed by a tuner. It does mean that OTHER signals that might be introduced into the antenna don't have to be anywhere near as strong to interfere with the desired signal, though.


A good, directional antenna in an attic may very well be good enough for many people most of the time. But quite often a much lower performing antenna outside will outperform an attic antenna.


Every siutuation is unique, and each person will have to balance the factors they consider important in addition to their specific mounting options and surrounding terrain to determine how to approach installing an antenna.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill Johnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As long as there's OTA reception, I doubt the attic versus outside arguments will ever be resolved. But I just think HD newcomers are often royally poorly served by claims about signal blockage and multipath in attics.



There is no argument. Outdoor installs are better (at the same height) than indoor ones. Period. Signals do get blocked by roofing materials, and the signal loss may be enough to eliminate reception. Multipath is more of a problem in an attic than in the outdoors.


That isn't to say it can't work. Lots of people do everything "wrong" (including pointing their antenna in the opposite direction) and get reliable, consistent reception. Putting your antenna in your attic is not the ideal. Maybe you can get away with less than the ideal. I can't. I have a 54' tower, a 28db preamplifier (2.5db noise factor) and an Antennas Direct 91XG and I *still* don't get signals reliably from 75 miles away.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a 54' tower, a 28db preamplifier (2.5db noise factor) and an Antennas Direct 91XG and I *still* don't get signals reliably from 75 miles away.



Perhaps long after you installed the tower, the "sweet spot" for some inexplicable reason has moved 10 feet to the right and down 13 feet for example. Now I know conventional wisdom (CW) may say this can't be; but, having installed my first antenna in the late 70's, I've learned CW should be tossed outside (pardon the pun) and stomped to smithereens when it comes to OTA.


If I ever lose my going on 2 years old rock solid 7/24 digital reception from a bazillion miles away, I'll be in the attic yesterday moving that 4228 around. And I won't worry about rain, wind, lightning, sunburn, falling down, getting neighbors mad, lead-in issues, etc. I often pass houses with antennas reaching to the sky and sometimes think, Did they first try the attic? And I still believe that it may not work every time, but is worth a try as the first step for us HD nuts.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill Johnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Did they first try the attic? And I still believe that it may not work every time, but is worth a try as the first step for us HD nuts.



Bill,


You know this is not a your right, he's wrong, situation. Right? Anyway, I would totally agree with you. Attic is better. If it works. If the attic won't work, then outside probably will, if a signal is reaching your antenna. I don't really buy the "higher is better" thinking when you are 75 miles from the transmitters. like I and sregener are. At that distance you won't get line of sight unless the transmitters are over 2,000 feet high and your antenna is...what?...4 or 5 hundred feet high. So if the signal is bending or reflecting from the troposhere, it is likely to be just about as strong 50ft up on a tower or 20ft AGL in your attic.


BTW, my 4228 is outside on a 30ft mast. My attic is too small to get into, and I have a metal roof. I did try the 4228 indoors before putting it on the roof. Didn't get any distance stations. I could get the ones that are 20-30 miles away, but not the 75 mile ones.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil Laffoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You know this is not a your right, he's wrong, situation...



Neil,

You're exactly right and my main points I tried to make is that the attic has some real advantages, signal blockage may not even exist for many, and try it first.


Having said that, we HD fanatics may argue among ourselves about attic/outside, the awfulness or acceptability of HDLite (and you know where this 19.3 nut stands), Sat. or cable, etc., etc., but we stand united on fuzzy SD vs. HD.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill Johnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> we stand united on fuzzy SD vs. HD.


*Amen to that!*


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil Laffoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't really buy the "higher is better" thinking when you are 75 miles from the transmitters. like I and sregener are. At that distance you won't get line of sight unless the transmitters are over 2,000 feet high and your antenna is...what?...4 or 5 hundred feet high. So if the signal is bending or reflecting from the troposhere, it is likely to be just about as strong 50ft up on a tower or 20ft AGL in your attic.



I do buy the "higher is better" line, and so does the installer who put the antenna up at my house. Doubling height above ground level increases your signal by 20dB. I had an antenna on my roof for a couple of years before the tower went up, and I'm telling you that the difference was immediate, obvious, and significant.


For most of us in long-distance situations, we're relying on tropospheric scatter. And for scatter, higher is better.


----------



## the_bear89451




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I do buy the "higher is better" line, and so does the installer who put the antenna up at my house. Doubling height above ground level increases your signal by 20dB. I had an antenna on my roof for a couple of years before the tower went up, and I'm telling you that the difference was immediate, obvious, and significant.
> 
> 
> For most of us in long-distance situations, we're relying on tropospheric scatter. And for scatter, higher is better.



In cases with positive interference (constructive wave super-positioning) it is possible for lower to be better. I have a very strong signal when placing the antenna between my house and my neighbor's. There is one spot where the signal bending around my house, bending around my neighbor's house and directly from the transmitter all combine (short-distance multi-path). Holding the antenna on the ground produces a stronger signal than on the roof. This is what Neil is referring to as a sweet spot.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *the_bear89451* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In cases with positive interference (constructive wave super-positioning) it is possible for lower to be better... This is what Neil is referring to as a sweet spot.



And they do, in many cases, exist. However, no one has yet been able to predict where a sweet spot will be. The science of RF propogation is rather thin. I've shocked and stunned station engineers with some of my results, but they've all admitted that predicting these things is practically impossible. Still, when doing an antenna installation, it is better to do things "right", or at least the way with the greatest chance of success, first. This saves you time and money. If time (and money) aren't that big of a deal, sure, go ahead and fool around. I'm on my fifth antenna in a house I haven't lived in five years. I don't think most people would put the time and money I did into this, but this is a hobby for me. For anybody else, they'd have given up and paid for cable years ago. Hopefully not after trying an antenna in their attic and getting nothing and then saying, "Well, there's just no signal here."


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For most of us in long-distance situations, we're relying on tropospheric scatter. And for scatter, higher is better.



Tropospheric scatter doesn't sound very reliable and I'm pretty sure that's NOT what I'm relying on. FWIW, radar is effective at locating storms up to 250 miles away (according to my local TV weatherman); and that makes me wonder about CW concerning 60 miles and then earth curvature kicks in.


Perhaps with all the variables (terrain, atmospheric conditions, unique tower characteristics, wave propagation patterns, hardware), 60 miles may not be ironclad and can be much greater. I wonder if finding the sweet spot often may be as important or more important than higher? I'm not casting any aspersions here or trying to stir up trouble, but just conjecturing about a fascinating subject we all apparently share an interest in.


----------



## milehighmike

It seems to me that TV reception and weather radar are two different animals.


For TV, a transmitter sends a signal that must be received at near ground level in order to receive it. After it travels, say 60 miles, it is near ground level, and beyond that, LOS disappears at ground level although the signal still travels on well above ground level and, technically, into outer space. Receiving a signal beyond this 60 mile limit requires antenna height to establish LOS with the transmitter. Think of it as a horizontal line sitting on a half circle, kind of like a teeter totter. The fulcrum, in the middle of the teeter totter is equivalent to ground level. If the transmitter is at one end of the horizontal line, LOS can only be established beyond the fulcrum by antenna height. If you are receiving a signal beyond the fulcrum distance, which is not a standard 60 miles but dependent upon transmitter antenna height and receiving antenna height, then either the signal is bending along the curvature of the earth somewhat (VHF does this more than UHF), the signal is bouncing off something, such as a hill or tall building, or you are benefitting from tropo effects. I receive a UHF digital channel 105 miles away but only (and always) at night or in unusual weather due to tropo during the day.


With weather radar, reception of the radar signal is not required at ground level. The radar signal detects clouds/storms above ground level, say as high as 60000 feet, and receives a bounced signal back to the transmitting site from high altitudes. In my teeter totter example, the weather radar transmitter would be at the fulcrum point, not at one end of the horizontal line. That's why it has a much longer range.


Hope this isn't confusing the situation.


----------



## greywolf

The storm clouds are thousands of feet in the air. Of course the 60mi figure doesn't apply there.


----------



## UMCanes5

Hey guys, I just recently bought a new HDTV set and I want to get my locals with an OTA antenna. I first tried a phillips from wal mart and while it did fairly ok, I could not get all of my local channels. I took that one back, and went and got the zenith silver sensor. Now, let me tell you that this little thing has pulled in all but one of my local channels. This thing is great! However, I can't pull in my local ABC digital feed for squat. The phillips wouldn't pull it in, and neither will the silver sensor. My local ABC 8.1 is on vhf, now I now the sensor is a uhf antenna, but I was hoping that maybe it would pull in this station. I really want to get this station as in the fall I watch alot of college football on ABC. I'm thinking about ordering the winegard squareshooter. My wife doesn't want some big clunky antenna mounted outside. I know antennas are trial and error but does anyone think I'll be able to pull in this station with the squareshooter? I live in Tulsa, Ok and I looked on antennaweb and it shows this station is like 12 miles from me. Is the squareshooter a better antenna than the silver sensor? Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.


----------



## kevin75

Hello,


Admittedly i haven't read through all 75 pages of this thread but I have skimmed a few. I have tried my local thread to no avail. I live between Tyler, TX (which only has 1 or 2 HD stations) and Shreveport, LA (which has more) so I am looking at about 50 miles or so for signals. I live out in the country so satellite is my only option. I am thinking about switching to Dish due to the who D* ST fiasco and want to get OTA HD set up while i am at it.


I have some trees around my house (seeing as how it's in the country) but i pick up my satellite reception just fine. Is 50 miles too far for a decent signal or will it work if i have the right antenna?


I went to look at Radio Shack for antennas today and see what they had. I couldn't find the silver sensor but one thing the made me curious was the clip on to the dish antennas? Are even decent or are they total crap? I had thought about maybe an indoor but I read somewhere that those won't work on the 50 mile range that i need to cover for a signal. That and becuase the house the i live in's walls are made of concrete.


so anyway, if anyone can provide a little help i would be grateful. Thanks.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevin75* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is 50 miles too far for a decent signal or will it work if i have the right antenna?
> 
> 
> ...I couldn't find the silver sensor but one thing the made me curious was the clip on to the dish antennas? Are even decent or are they total crap?



50 miles is doable, if you're not totally blocked by hills or mountains. Check antennaweb.org, though. Tyler, TX is about 80 miles from the transmitters in Shreveport, which is very, very hard.


The clip-ons are about the worst outdoor antennas ever made.


Good antenna choices, should you want to try it, are the Channel Master 4228, the Winegard PR-9032, or the AntennasDirect 91XG.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill Johnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Perhaps long after you installed the tower, the "sweet spot" for some inexplicable reason has moved 10 feet to the right and down 13 feet for example. Now I know conventional wisdom (CW) may say this can't be; but, having installed my first antenna in the late 70's, I've learned CW should be tossed outside (pardon the pun) and stomped to smithereens when it comes to OTA.
> 
> 
> If I ever lose my going on 2 years old rock solid 7/24 digital reception from a bazillion miles away, I'll be in the attic yesterday moving that 4228 around. And I won't worry about rain, wind, lightning, sunburn, falling down, getting neighbors mad, lead-in issues, etc. I often pass houses with antennas reaching to the sky and sometimes think, Did they first try the attic? And I still believe that it may not work every time, but is worth a try as the first step for us HD nuts.




Again, congratulations on your fine reception. Please don't consider this typical performance in an attic and continue to recommend it to others as if they can replicate it. Your recommendation is based on your experience alone and yours is a very atypical situation. For the vast majority beyone 30 miles or so, an outdoor antenna will be necessary for stable reception. Under 30 miles, it's probably worth a shot in the attic if you can stand the heat.


Common wisdom is and will remain the best place to start. Where you go from there is up to you.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *j_buckingham80* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes, but one thing about Attic Antennas that I find really nice, is the lack of exposure to wind and lightening. That's worth quite a bit at least to me right there. I think it's more what works for you is what you need to go with, Attic Antennas that work, much easier to maintain and more worry free than an outdoor antenna.



A nice thing about not having a car is it's cheaper, you get more exercize, and you're less likely to be involved in an accident. Most people still have one, though.


I guess you could also have a car but just never take it outside. That'd make it safer and easier to maintain as well.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Again, congratulations on your fine reception. Please don't consider this typical performance in an attic and continue to recommend it to others as if they can replicate it. For the vast majority beyone 30 miles or so, an outdoor antenna will be necessary for stable reception.



cp makes a good point and my only concern is that, if I'm new to digital TV and live 40 miles or so from the towers, I won't even try the attic. I'm gonna say cp seems pretty knowledgeable so let's call the Ajax Antenna Co. and have them put one on the roof. So I wonder how many outdoor antennas are owned by people who'll never know if the safety of the attic is doable for them. Say, I wonder if commercial installers even consider suggesting the attic in appropriate cases.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevin75* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have some trees around my house (seeing as how it's in the country) but i pick up my satellite reception just fine. Is 50 miles too far for a decent signal or will it work if i have the right antenna?...I had thought about maybe an indoor but I read somewhere that those won't work on the 50 mile range that i need to cover for a signal. That and becuase the house the i live in's walls are made of concrete.



If CW is right, I would say to Kevin forget about indoors. However, I wouldn't feel good about that recommendation and would have to say to Kevin at least first give the attic a shot. And who knows how much grief and aggravation from the wife and neighbors this would prevent. Yeah, I know the FCC blah, blah, blah, but most of us want to be good neighbors and it's agony otherwise.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *milehighmike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It seems to me that TV reception and weather radar are two different animals...



Thanks Mike for some interesting info. The only point I wonder about is that that radar question from my local TV weatherman provided the answer that radar can't detect storms beyond 250 miles because of the earth's curvature. So I'm not sure he was factual and I wonder how the 60 miles was derived.


----------



## kevin75

thanks for the advice so far guys. a couple of points.


firstly i don 't have any nieghbors ( i live in the sticks) or a wife so i don't have to worry aboug annoying anyone







anyway, i was going to try an indoor antenna but the thing that got me thinking was about the signal. i live in a house that is built into the side of a hill with only one side with an open face. the other three sides are enclosed in the hill. will that affect the reception that an indoor antenna will recieve?


and *sregener*, thanks for the tips on the clip on's. i actually live about 50 miles from tyler and shreveport so i think i can get both if i get an antenna that will get the reception. i think. thanks for the antenna recommendations. are mutlidirectional ones any good?


are there any stores that have better return policies than others for antennas that don't work once tried out of the box?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill Johnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So I wonder how many outdoor antennas are owned by people who'll never know if the safety of the attic is doable for them...
> 
> 
> Thanks Mike for some interesting info. The only point I wonder about is that that radar question from my local TV weatherman provided the answer that radar can't detect storms beyond 250 miles because of the earth's curvature. So I'm not sure he was factual and I wonder how the 60 miles was derived.



What additional safety is there in an indoor install? Sure, it won't rust. But if the winds are strong enough to cause problems with your antenna, odds are good the roof won't be there, anyway. And a properly grounded antenna is *less* likely to be hit than your house is.


The earth has a curvature to it. That's why, standing on the top of a mountain in Montana, you still can't see China, or the ocean. From "normal" antenna height (approximately 1600 feet) the ground physically blocks line of sight at approximately 56 miles. UHF bends slightly with the curvature of the earth under normal circumstances, so 60 miles is what is known as the "radio horizon." If your antenna is significantly higher, or the transmitting one is, the radio horizon can be extended. Mount Wilson in California, for instance, has LOS for over 120 miles.


And your weatherman must have some impressive radar: http://www.srh.noaa.gov/ridge/doppleru/radinfo.html 


The national weather service reports 140 nautical miles as their maximum distance for detecting heavy rain and snow from a ground-mounted radar system.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevin75* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> and *sregener*, thanks for the tips on the clip on's. i actually live about 50 miles from tyler and shreveport so i think i can get both if i get an antenna that will get the reception. i think. thanks for the antenna recommendations. are mutlidirectional ones any good?
> 
> 
> are there any stores that have better return policies than others for antennas that don't work once tried out of the box?



Multidirectional antennas suck for digital reception. Period.


AntennasDirect has an excellent return policy. Radio Shack does, as well. Only one of the two makes great antennas.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill Johnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Say, I wonder if commercial installers even consider suggesting the attic in appropriate cases.
> 
> 
> The only point I wonder about is that that radar question from my local TV weatherman provided the answer that radar can't detect storms beyond 250 miles because of the earth's curvature. So I'm not sure he was factual and I wonder how the 60 miles was derived.



Commercial installers, it they want to do well and stay in business, will do the job so that it provides the most chance of success on the first install. Most will even slightly "overdo" the install for this reason.


Line-of-sight between two points on a sphere is dependent upon the relative elevation of each point as well as the intervening terrain. For thunderstorms and weather that can be up to 60,000 ft. high, this increases line-of-sight significantly even with the radar at relatively low elevation. For TV signals, 60 miles is just a rough average and is based on a smooth curvature. LOS for TV can easily extend to beyond 100 miles given the right conditions.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Commercial installers, it they want to do well and stay in business, will do the job so that it provides the most chance of success on the first install.



Up until about six months ago, I was doing maybe one residential installation a month, and if any prospective customer as much as said that if my proposed installation was the best way to do it, then why did half a dozen people on the internet say otherwise, then that ended the negotiation right then and there. Now, I don't do any, other than for individuals with strong ties to my commercial accounts.


The professional antenna installer HAS to get it right the first time. He can't risk being called by someone six months from now saying that one channel occasional freezes. A number of people on this site have knocked Davis Antenna because Davis refused to do an installation for them, but then, they bought a junk antenna and now enjoy excellent reception. They don't realize, 1) they were lucky, 2) if four out of five too-close-to-call installations wind up satisfying the customer and one does not, the installer will blow the entire profit on the lot servicing the one that doesn't, and 3) if a professional installer declines to do an installation but you then do it yourself and you wind up with very good but not absolutely reliable reception, you will be satisfied, whereas if the professional installation produced very good but not absolutely reliable reception, you often would not be satisfied.


----------



## sandpj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dswallow* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think the SS1000 alone would be pushing the limits.
> 
> 
> I'd go with the SS2000 or an SS1000 and CM7777 to start.



Well, went with the SS2000 and it seems to be working well. Signal strength on NBC is around 70-75, but all the other stations are around 90. Pretty good for being 40 miles out with a one story house.


It was nice to see Nascar on HD! Thanks for the advice!


Paul


----------



## wildwillie6




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Commercial installers, it they want to do well and stay in business, will do the job so that it provides the most chance of success on the first install. Most will even slightly "overdo" the install for this reason.



. . . and that's so totally reasonable. We hobbyists can fool around with different installations, but when I call a pro, I expect the pro to "nuke" the problem. And on that occasion I don't mind paying for a bigger antenna, taller mast, etc., than I might have gotten by with.


(That said, if you have a reasonably accessible attic and want to give it a try, that's something good to do before calling a pro. Even if it doesn't work, it might be useful at some future time. I had an old cable from the attic from some previous fooling around, years ago, and recently took advantage of it to get another station without rotating the antenna, bringing that in with a Join-Tenna to add to what the professional installer had done.)


willie


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 3) if a professional installer declines to do an instalaltion but you wind up with very good but not absolutely reliable reception, you will be satisfied, whereas if the professional installation produced very good but not absolutely reliable reception, you often would not be satisfied.



I can attest to this. I put a Winegard HD-7084P on my roof after both the professional installers in town told me that I wouldn't get what I wanted with a rooftop install. I did a lot better than what they expected - one of them expressed shock at what I was able to get - but ultimately, I ended up doing a full, professional install with a 54' tower. With my expectations reasonably set, I've been very happy with my tower. But if I had started out expecting perfection, I'd be disappointed with the setup I have now.


----------



## quarque

Just thought I would post the results of a little experiment I and a friend performed this Saturday afternoon. We went to one of the higher points in central Washington State that is accessible by road and set up my Sammy T150 receiver, an LCD monitor and a tripod. On the tripod we mounted a Radio Shack 15-2160 yagi and later a CM 4221. There were two clusters of DT towers we were after. One being Spokane, WA - 110 miles away and the tri-cities area near the Columbia River (84 miles away). Our elevation was about 2200 feet and the transmitters all average about 2500 feet above sea level. To our amazement, we pulled in steady signals from 3 stations in Spokane and 4 in the tri-cities area (all UHF). The 4221 and the 15-2160 worked about equally well with the edge going to the RS unit by a tad. Nether of these are high-gain units. Only one of the 7 stations is at 1-MW ERP. Most are in the 200 kW range, one at 47 kW. Being done in the middle of the day it unlikely there was much (if any) help from atmospheric ducting. Using an LOS calculator one can find that given the heights involved, we could have been as much as 137 miles apart before the "average earth" gets in the way. Fortunately there is nothing but flatland between us and the towers. Our attempts to pick up Seattle stations yielded only an occasional blip on the T150's signal meter. Considering the Cascade Mountains are in the way, that is about what we expected. So, as in real estate, the 3 most important things for DT are location, location, location (or elevation, elevation, elevation







). This more or less proved the theory that you don't need a 1 MW signal to go a long ways. The 47 KW station at 84 miles was rather pixelated at times but watchable. The others showed no breakups over a 15-minute period. So never accept the "it can't be done" answer until you try it.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *quarque* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...Using an LOS calculator one can find that given the heights involved, we could have been as much as 137 miles apart before the "average earth" gets in the way... So never accept the "it can't be done" answer until you try it.



This test by quarque is fascinating and kind of supports my rantings about stomping CW to smithereens when it comes to OTA reception. I believe AntennaWeb.org does more harm than good; and as a related extension I believe attic antenna solutions based on my experience can be easily achieved by many and if doable are much more preferable to big structures of outside metal.


----------



## kevin75

one more question, if everyone will indulge me. the terrain is relatively flat in both directions to receive the OTA signals. my question is how much will the height of the antenna matter? i know there are those who think "higher is better" but my concern is this: i want the easiest possible access to the antenna in case i have to find one that works if the first one doesn't or adjust it or things of that nature. if it's closer to the roof it will obviously be easier. also the antenna will be going directly on top of the roof as i live in an underground house.


thanks again everyone.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevin75* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> my question is how much will the height of the antenna matter?



My philosophy is this: If my attic 4228 had not worked out so numbingly successful for astronomical distances, I was ready to start at the roof's ridge vent and go in stages as high as needed to get good OTA digital reception. I had warily eyed those longer metal TV mast sections at Lowe's & wondered where they would have had to be stopped and a tower would have had to be the option. The sky was the limit but then I'm an HD nut.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill Johnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...I believe AntennaWeb.org does more harm than good; and as a related extension I believe attic antenna solutions based on my experience can be easily achieved by many and if doable are much more preferable to big structures of outside metal.



Antenna Web accurately depicts the angles between the transmitters, and with that information, I can sometimes select an antenna with a beam width or even a side lobe pattern that gives a residential antenna installation the best possible chance of being rotorless. Beyond that, Antenna Web is nearly useless.


One other thing that has been observed here many times but needs to be repeated every few days for the benefit of any newbies is, multi-bay bowties tend to work better than do Yagis when installed inside attics, whereas the Yagi will usually match or exceed the performance of the multi-bay bowtie when used outdoors and generally puts less wind load on the antenna mast.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...multi-bay bowties tend to work better than do Yagis when installed inside attics, whereas the Yagi will usually match or exceed the performance of the multi-bay bowtie when used outdoors and generally puts less wind load on the antenna mast.



I can say a double Amen! at least to the first part of this statement. After I replaced my attic RS 15-2160 with a 4228, my UHF digital reception improved dramatically. And it makes me wonder whether these Forum musings that attics block signals 30, 60 or higher percent -- and made by knowledgeable members but always causing me to cry out that that's far my experience -- but whether these attic signal blockage musings may be based on the most absolute worst case scenarios. My experience is that, with signals coming in almost exactly perpendicular to my house from great distances, shingle and plywood do little blockage. Now an incoming real oblique angle might raise roofing nails, etc. questions.


One other point, with the horrible winds I get at this elevation, I've always been concerned about putting any antenna on the roof. Forum members seem to say not just generally, but absolutely Yagis put less wind load on masts. But since I never tried any on the roof, I'm wondering if under certain conditions a 4228 for example could be as accepting of winds as for example one of those longer 100 inch or so Yagis (an XG91 for example).


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill Johnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This test by quarque is fascinating and kind of supports my rantings about stomping CW to smithereens when it comes to OTA reception.



Bill, I know you think common wisdom is all bunk, but this test seems to validate, rather than nullify, CW. In the future, if you think CW is wrong in a particular case, it would be helpful if you would list the piece of CW that you believe has been disproved.


In this case, three pieces of common wisdom have been verified by my count:


1) Antenna height (both receiving and transmitting) matters.

2) Transmitting power is secondary to transmitter antenna height.

3) Line-of-sight makes for very easy reception, and just about any antenna will do.


The "60-mile" rule was not disproved in this case, because that rule has the following condition: "under average terrain and antenna height."


The only thing that shocked me out of their test was a failure to get reliable reception from the 47kw station. That's plenty with LOS, so there must have been some sort of interference, either co-channel or cross-channel, impacting that signal.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill Johnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> And it makes me wonder whether these Forum musings that attics block signals 30, 60 or higher percent -- and made by knowledgeable members but always causing me to cry out that that's far my experience -- but whether these attic signal blockage musings may be based on the most absolute worst case scenarios. My experience is that, with signals coming in almost exactly perpendicular to my house from great distances, shingle and plywood do little blockage.
> 
> 
> Forum members seem to say not just generally, but absolutely Yagis put less wind load on masts. But since I never tried any on the roof, I'm wondering if under certain conditions a 4228 for example could be as accepting of winds as for example one of those longer 100 inch or so Yagis (an XG91 for example).



Bill, when did you use a dB meter to determine how much signal your attic is blocking? If you haven't, then you have no idea how much signal your attic is actually blocking. Most "signal strength" meters in HD tuners report error rates, not dB strength. The fact that you're getting a signal doesn't mean that the attic *isn't* blocking 50%, 60% or more of the incoming signal. All it means is that what is getting through is still clean enough for your tuner to make sense of it. Tuners can accept very weak signals, and still show a "perfect" digital image.


Multi-bay antennas probably work better in attics because they employ the #1 solution to multipath - stacking. An 8-bay antenna is essentially a vertical and horizontal stack.


There is no doubt that under some conditions, the 4228 would have less wind load than a yagi. That condition is when the wind is blowing parallel to the reflector screen. If you're always keeping an eye on prevailing wind conditions and rotating your antenna, then wind load won't be a problem. However, just as a sail catches the wind and exerts tremendous force on it, a 4228 hit "full on" by wind is going to cause some serious problems. Add to that the fact that the 4228 weighs double the 91XG, and you've got some serious issues to deal with.


I had a Winegard HD8200P on my tower (about 16' long) and I could watch the whole tower sway in a breeze. Yet my installer told me that it had far less wind load than a 4228. In fact, they refuse to install 4228s on towers because they blow over all the time. So if the largest VHF/UHF combo has less wind load than the 4228, you can bet the 91XG is even better.


----------



## AntAltMike

I'm sure there is less windload with a Winegard 8-bay bowtie than there is with a Channelmaster, because the Winegard doesn't have the dense reflector screen, but the Winegard 4400's and 8800's front-to-back rejection factors aren't as good as those of the corresponding the Channelmaster 4128 and 4228.


Sometimes that doesn't matter. Sometimes, the high gain of the Winegard 8-bay bowtie and its relatively narrow beam are all you need, but sometimes you need the greater front-to-back ratio as well


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sometimes that doesn't matter. Sometimes, the high gain of the Winegard 8-bay bowtie and its relatively narrow beam are all you need, but sometimes you need the greater front-to-back ratio as well



As an interesting side note, someone here did a side-by-side comparison of the 4228 to the 91XG and found that the 91XG was better on the lower channels, while the 4228 was better on the higher - exactly the opposite of what we'd expect. Turns out the 91XG has a great reflector screen, even though it is relatively light.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As an interesting side note, someone here did a side-by-side comparison of the 4228 to the 91XG and found that the 91XG was better on the lower channels, while the 4228 was better on the higher - exactly the opposite of what we'd expect. Turns out the 91XG has a great reflector screen, even though it is relatively light.



JimC705 in Morristown, TN swears by this. It would suggest that maybe the 91XG is better on the lower channels than other comparable yagi/corner reflectors. This tempts me into my next project which may be putting up a stack of 91XG's. I've already got so many antennas I don't know what to do with them and my wife thinks I'm obsessed (maybe I am).


----------



## Dan Kolton

Does anyone have information on a Winegard SS 3000 indoor antenna. I'm using a Silver Sensor and it does a fantastic job on calm days (I'm within 5 or 6 miles of local broadcast towers), but HD is completely unwatchable when there is even a little breeze. I'm surrounded by trees that I could never get over with a tower. i'm hoping for some solution.


----------



## holl_ands

Here are press releases and spec sheet re Winegard SS3000 Sharpshooter "indoor" antenna (aka Terk HDTVIp):
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/S...%20Release.pdf 
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/W...ce_Release.pdf 
http://www.winegard.com/offair/sharp...oter_12-08.pdf 

Note that it has a very low (1 db) Noise Figure preamp, (which could cause overload problems if you are close to a transmitter site).

The antenna section only has 0 dB gain in UHF band, -5 dB loss in hi-VHF band and -15 dB loss in lo-VHF band.


The brocure shows it being conveniently mounted on top of a plasma panel,

but that may or may not be the optimum direction for reception in your living room.

It is much more likely that you will need to rotate the antenna for best reception,

especially given the very narrow beamwidths that will be useful against multipath.

Placing it directly in the hot air exhaust of a plama panel also can cause performance and reliability problems.


I saw the SharpShooter at CES2005 in January, however the various on-line antenna sources

say that it is not yet available as a Winegard product, but BestBuy has the Terk HDTVIp for a fairly pricey $139.


Will SharpShooter help you? The higher directionality may help against multipath.

But the preamp will no doubt be overloaded.

Maybe you can let us know after you try it...and perhaps return it the next day...


----------



## Dan Kolton

Maybe you can let us know after you try it...and perhaps return it the next day...[/quote]


Many thanks for the useful reply. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for my report since, at that price and with the amp. as a drawback, I'm very unlikely to try it.


----------



## netstalker

Bare with me, this could get complex.


I'm 35-40 miles away from the desired tower site.


I just moved "up the hill" from my last place where I was able to pick up MOST of the HD off-air coming out of Philadelphia (Roxborough antenna farm) with a Terk urban antenna (identical to Wingard SS1000) and got even better reception with the biggest VHF/UHF/FM yagi that Radio Slack sells. I would get occasional signal drop-out from FOX29.


Where I've moved I'm now 50-75' higher in elevation and a mile closer to Phila. although I have a ton more tree cover South-Southeast of me where the antenna would aim to get to Philadelphia. I have yet to be able to receive a signal using an SS2000 from the roof top and I've tried the existing setup of the Terk with a pre-amp; Although I am able to receive WNEP-16 in Wilkes-Barre/Scranton, PA area which is of equal distance away but a clear shot (no obstructions), in the opposite direction. Unfortunately the yagi got wrecked in the move to perform any testing.


Does anyone think it would be worth it for me to buy a Channel Master Crossfire 3671 for reception through densly populated forest? If the SS2000 doesn't see jack, would the 3671?


Thanks all ahead of time!


Jeff


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *netstalker* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does anyone think it would be worth it for me to buy a Channel Master Crossfire 3671 for reception through densly populated forest? If the SS2000 doesn't see jack, would the 3671?



If you don't need analog reception, I'd get a UHF-only antenna like the AntennasDirect 91XG. But yes, a larger antenna has a better chance of getting a good signal than a smaller one, even an amplified smaller antenna.


Ironically, your amplifier may be causing problems now - the signal might be too strong, or the reflections (which trees produce in spades) might be boosted enough to confuse the receiver. If you can, try to disable to amplifier. If you can't, a good non-amplified antenna is a good first choice.


What do analog UHF stations look like from Philly using the SS2000? Compare them to these: http://www.geocities.com/figbert/8vsb.html


----------



## UMCanes5

Will a UHF antenna pick up any VHF signals? I have tried 3 different antennas with no luck of pulling in my local ABC digital signal which is on VHF (channel 8.1). I've tried a phillips, radio shack, and zenith silver sensor and not one would pull in this station. I'm thinking about trying a antennas direct DB4, that is if you guys think this will pull in the signal. If not, I won't even bother ordering it. All of the towers are within 13 miles from where I live. What do you guys think? Should I give the DB4 a shot, or is there any other recommendations? Thanks in advance!


----------



## Aesculus

I am finally getting to HDTV with a new SA LAR5668 coming soon. Currently running CRT TV's. I have one antenna (combined UHF/VHF) coax coming in. I will still have a least 1 VHF/UHF CRT set with the 5668. Can I get one antenna that will be good for all broadcast types and shared on one coax to both TV's?


I am about 50 miles from my local station antennas and about 80-100 miles from SF stations, which I get today but sometimes drop out and are certainly not reference quality compared to the locals.


How would the RS 15-2154 work? Any others that come to mind?


BTW my antenna is mounted in the attic its pointed out a gable with a window. I am at 1000' and the antennas are about 2000 feet ASL and are unobstructed. Biggest problem is that a few of the distant antennas arc is too big to pull in everything at once so maybe I will also have to invest in a motor unit to swing it.


----------



## holl_ands

UMCanes5: Antennaweb says that KTUL-DT (virtual CH8.1) is actually on UHF channel 10.


Earlier I posted a link to Kerry Cozad's actual on-air antenna measurements:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1118216319 

You can see that the typical RCA (loop+rabbit ears), Zenith Silver Sensor and Terk HDTVi

all had about the same 0 dBd gain (same as a simple dipole) for UHF channel 10.

None of these have a particulary good antenna pattern to suppress multipath,

such as is claimed by the new Terk HDTVIp (aka Winegard SS3000) discussed above.


The NEC simulations found at www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 

show the CM4221 (a 4-bay similiar to DB-4) with a gain of only -10 dBd.

So the 4-bay probably has much less gain at VHF.....which shouldn't be problem at only 13 miles away.

The 4-bay provides significant reduction of multipath due to the improved antenna pattern.

Click on each antenna name to see antenna patterns.


Since you are only 13 miles away, you probably have a multipath problem, rather than a signal strength problem.

So the HDTVIp might be worth a try, if there is enough indoor signal attenuation to avoid overloading it's built in preamp.


You still might want to try the inexpensive DB-4, CM4221 or Winegard PR4400 4-Bay (the latter is less "visual" indoors).

Unfortunately there is no information available re VHF antenna patterns for these antennas to assess performance against multipath.


Only the CM4228 8-bay antenna provided ample gain in the upper VHF band.


----------



## Rossco04

Has anyone tried the pf7 picture frame antenna from Antennas Direct? I'm curious how well this works. It seems like a great idea, unless I have to have it facing the wall or sitting sideways in order to get reception. Any comments?


Ross


----------



## balefire




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've seen pictures of a Zenith/Gemini/Philips Silver Sensor mounted from the ceiling. They're relatively small and could be hung with 2 or 3 pieces of fishing line or other string. The tabletop stand can be removed. The silver sensor can be painted to match the ceiling color.
> 
> 
> If all your stations are UHF, relatively strong power and roughly in the same direction, this would probably work. All bets are off though, if your house/building exterior has metal siding or foil-backed wall or ceiling insulation or foil radiant barrier roof decking.



in case anyone else wondered about this, i tried this and it works great! mounted the silver sensor on the 2nd floor ceiling and I get all the channels in Indy! you guys are great!


----------



## PGDave

UMCanes5 - The Antennas Direct XG91 will recieve high VHF channels (7-13) quite well. I have found that it will even get low VHF channels, although not as well.


----------



## jdougjones

I recently bought the HDTIVO from Directv and OTA is working well. It's interesting that a silver sensor in the atic is working better for me than the roof mounted winegard the directv installer put up. With the silver sensor I have no problems receiving all the major networks which I think share the same tower about 18 miles SE of me. With the winegard I get what apparently is some multipath interference which causes FOX to occassionally drop.


The only station I don't get which would be nice is PBS which is on a tower 24 miles due west of me. I can get it if I rotate the silver sensor, but then obviously I don't get the ones that are south east.


I have 2 questions.


1) I thought VHF channels are 2-13 and UHF are 14-83. But, my OTA PBS station is channel 4.1 and CBS is channel 5.1 and I get them using a UHF antenna. I know their frequencies are listed as 59 and 53 respectivly. So, are channels and frequencies sometimes used interchangeably?


2) If I got a new antenna, say a CM 4228, can I use some kind of joiner, like the CM JOIN-TENNA and point the 4228 at the SE tower and the silver sensor at W tower and get everything? Or, is there something else I can use besides a rotor? If a rotor is the only answer I can just skip getting PBSHD.


Thanks in advance,

Doug


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jdougjones* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1) I thought VHF channels are 2-13 and UHF are 14-83. But, my OTA PBS station is channel 4.1 and CBS is channel 5.1 and I get them using a UHF antenna. I know their frequencies are listed as 59 and 53 respectivly. So, are channels and frequencies sometimes used interchangeably?
> 
> 
> 2) If I got a new antenna, say a CM 4228, can I use some kind of joiner, like the CM JOIN-TENNA and point the 4228 at the SE tower and the silver sensor at W tower and get everything? Or, is there something else I can use besides a rotor? If a rotor is the only answer I can just skip getting PBSHD.



1) Digital broadcasters include a "virtual" channel number that is identical to their analog assignment. So if you knew a particular channel as "Channel 5" in all the ads, their digital channel will show up in your receiver as "5-1" or "5.1" even though it is actually broadcasting on a completely different channel.


2) Yes, a Jointenna should work. Keep in mind you must get one tuned for the one channel that is in the "wrong" direction. The Jointenna isn't perfect - it has some bleed two channels below and two above, so if you have a couple of stations close to each other (say, 33 and 35) a Jointenna may not work for you.


----------



## jdougjones




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 2) Yes, a Jointenna should work. Keep in mind you must get one tuned for the one channel that is in the "wrong" direction. The Jointenna isn't perfect - it has some bleed two channels below and two above, so if you have a couple of stations close to each other (say, 33 and 35) a Jointenna may not work for you.



Thanks for the education. PBS is on 59 and WB is on 57. So, it's probably not worth the expense for me to try.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jdougjones* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the education. PBS is on 59 and WB is on 57. So, it's probably not worth the expense for me to try.



Radio Shack makes a remote-controlled A/B switch that you could use, as well...


----------



## kevin75

i would like to avoid as much cost as possible, so if all of my HD stations will be within a few degrees of each other, do i need a rotator? or is it better to be safe and put one up there anyway?


----------



## plumeria




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevin75* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> i would like to avoid as much cost as possible, so if all of my HD stations will be within a few degrees of each other, do i need a rotator? or is it better to be safe and put one up there anyway?



A few degress, but how many miles? If they are a reasonable distance away you shouldn't need a rotator (cost and extra complexity/hassle). Try without and see what happens.


peter

p.s. I use two antennas facing opposite directions to get 4 transmitting locations (2 per antenna) and they are a few degrees apart, with no problem. The distances are 30 miles and 10 miles.


----------



## plumeria




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jdougjones* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the education. PBS is on 59 and WB is on 57. So, it's probably not worth the expense for me to try.



You can also use a cheap $3.95 cable splitter/combiner and see what happens. I use one on my 2 antenna setup, with a 6db atennuator (from Radio Shack where you can also buy the variable one) on the CM4228 signal and a straight connection from my Radio Shack antenna to the splitter. Works great for me.. but as usual YMMV (your mileage may vary)


peter


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevin75* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> i would like to avoid as much cost as possible, so if all of my HD stations will be within a few degrees of each other, do i need a rotator? or is it better to be safe and put one up there anyway?



Depending on your distance and the gain of your antenna, you shouldn't have any problems with just one antenna. Even the most directional antennas cover a 5-degree range out to 50 miles or so. The 4-bay bowties cover a 60 degree range very well, but if multipath is a problem, it may not be directional enough.


----------



## kevin75

i am looking at getting a 91XG from anntenas direct and pointing towards shreveport since that has the most digital stations. according to antenna web, the variance of degrees is around 2-4 degrees and i am looking at around 50 miles out. and this will only be for one tv if that makes any difference.


----------



## gondalguru

I have an extra D*** Network dish installed on my roof top. Can I use this dish to get HDTV local signals?? Any specific thread on this questions on AVSFORUM?? I am waiting for Sammy 6168 and planning to watch local HDTV through its built in tuner??


----------



## AntAltMike

Basically, the "nice" baluns, meaning the ones that are typically 3/4" in diameter, are probably all dual wind transformers and lose in the neighborhood of 1/2dB. The smaller, cheaper baluns, often called "indoor" and about 1/2" in diameter, are single-wind autoformers whose performance varies wildly over the UHF band. A few years ago, a physics professor who was briefly a member here tested one of those autoformers and found that its impedance over the UHF band varied from about 1dB to about 7dB.


I'm pretty sure that the Radio Shack balun made for connecting a 300 ohm twin-lead via screw terminals, to a rear chassis 75 ohm input is a reasonably well engineered balun, but its "F" connection is a push connector, so it may be impractical to make is mechanically reliable and weatherproof if used outdoors.


----------



## RayL Jr.

I'm not sure about smaller parabolic dishes _used as an antenna_ & receiving VHF/UHF OTA HDTV. Mounting higher is most always better in this case. Channel Master had a 7' dish that outperformed just about anything that could fit in someones yard/roof, but wind loads become more of a concern w/the bigger dishes.


Parabolic collectors are very effective at focusing the energy source. I've designed 10-8' parabolic solar collectors back in the mid-late 70's to run a Sterling hi-temp steam engine approaching 30% total efficiency (available PV cells are about 5-20%). Lots of web resources on that. I imagined they could be a small cheap source for homemade power in every home. Then Ted Tuner coincidentally grabbed up all the nice surplus parabolic frames & started CNN...


----------



## gondalguru

I am in McAllen, TX and planning to get 4 digital OTA channels. Info from antennaweb suggests that I am 25 miles from the tower and compass orientation ranging from 89 - 97. Three are UHF and one (ABC) is VHF with freq 13. No major obstruction in the path. to towers. After reading through these forums I am thinking of getting CM 4228. Will this be a good choice in my situation??? Are there other low cost - less hassel (indoor type) antennas that will work for me???


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gondalguru* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am in McAllen, TX and planning to get 4 digital OTA channels. Info from antennaweb suggests that I am 25 miles from the tower and compass orientation ranging from 89 - 97. Three are UHF and one (ABC) is VHF with freq 13. No major obstruction in the path. to towers. After reading through these forums I am thinking of getting CM 4228. Will this be a good choice in my situation??? Are there other low cost - less hassel (indoor type) antennas that will work for me???



A CM 4221 outdoors should be fine. If you wanted to go in the attic, you might need the CM 4228. You could try an indoor antenna such as the RS amplified loop/rabbit ear model but I think you're pushing it at 25 miles.


----------



## POWERFUL

What about using the RS 15-624? FWIH its the best indoor one and guess what it's now back in stock.


----------



## AntAltMike

I assume that the 3/4" baluns that I have experimented with in various field applications are dual wind transformers because I have successfully used them to eliminate ground loops, whereas I have always been unsuccessful at eliminating ground loops with the cheaper, 1/2" diameter baluns. I assume, based on that, that the 1/2" baluns are single wind autoformers in which there is a tap connection point such that three-fourths of the windings are on one side of it and one side are on the other side. I have not cut a whole lot of them open.


When you use the term ferrite baluns, are you limiting that to single-wind autoformers with ferrite cores, or might that term also be used to describe devices with dual isolated windings that might also have ferrite cores? I'm certain that the frequency response of the latter will be much flatter than the frequency loss of the former.


Right now, my only spectrum analyzer that has fine enough vertical resolution to meaningfully evaluate fractional dB variations is my disassembled AVCOM (started to fix the battery charger, but never got around to finishing the job) then only way that I could endeavor to test what I have lying around would be to maybe couple four of them together and divide the measured losses by four.


In light of the fact that your calculator had determined that a so-called "coaxial balun" optimized to the UHF band would have insertion losses of -0.69dB at 470 MHz, 0.0dB at 605 MHz (Mid Band) and -0.51dB at 740MHz., I don't see why you would be surprised to hear that someone who had once measured what were believed to be dual wind transformer baluns had losses consistent with the coaxial balun that you have simulated.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevin75* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> i am looking at getting a 91XG from anntenas direct and pointing towards shreveport since that has the most digital stations. according to antenna web, the variance of degrees is around 2-4 degrees and i am looking at around 50 miles out. and this will only be for one tv if that makes any difference.



At 50 miles, my 91XG has about a 10 degree coverage angle. Only at 75 miles do I see a significant difference at 2-4 degrees.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *brianm0520* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> hey guys, i live close to russellville, al (blue dot in attachment). I was wondering what kind of antenna i would need to receive the station shown (a cross on the attachment), or if that is even possible. Thanks for your help.



Is it possible? Yes. Likely? No. You are well outside their predicted range, and it looks like you may have mountains blocking you as well.


Does this mean you shouldn't try? Can't say. If you want to give it a shot, just to see if it can be done, you'll need about the best rig you can afford. An AntennasDirect 91XG is my personal choice for long-distance reception. Couple that to a Channel Master 7777 preamplifier. Mount it as high as you can go. Then hope.


You should also check with the station to make sure they're even on the air, as the FCC has them listed as having construction permits only, meaning the FCC has no records of them actually broadcasting digitally at this time.


----------



## milehighmike

Actually, WTJP does have an STA, but it's at very low power - 8.2 kW. However, the FCC info indicates the station applied for a full license in May which, when granted, would increase its power to 150 kW, still not much.


----------



## AntAltMike

I just cut the fork lugs off two Channel Master 7982 Matching transformers, those being of the indoor, narrow body design that I often derisively refer to as the "cheap ones", twisted the leads together, and measured the signal strengths of eleven cable TV channels, 6 VHF and 5 Hyperband or higher, to measure their insertion loss, using a Leader LF 941 FSM, which regrettably, only has a resolution of 1dB. I then divided the difference by two.


4 (67Mz) no insertion loss

5 (77Mz) 1/2 dB per balun

7 (175Mz) 1dB

9 (187Mz) 1/2dB

11 (199Mz) 1dB

13 (211Mz) 1dB


65 (469Mz) 1/2 dB

75 (529Mz) 1 dB

85 (589Mz) 1dB

110 (709Mz) 1/2dB

120 (769Mz) 1dB


Amazing. I had tested a handful of baluns about ten years ago, when I first moved to the Washington, DC market and began servicing master antenna systems, as some buildings distributed local broadcast channels 20 (507Mz) and 26 (543Mz) on their natural frequencies, so I needed to have some idea of what the hardware I was using was capable of doing at those frequencies. As I have remarked in other threads, I had observed erratic, inconsistent insertion loss performance with the narrow diameter, so-called "indoor" baluns at different frequencies, which also have consistently failed me as ground loop isolators, but I never have had any reason to attempt to replicate the testing that I did.


I'm still inclined to doubt that these Channel Master $.42 baluns, are fairly evenly losing just .7dB on the average in both bands. My test cable signal goes through a two-way hybrid, then a -9dB directional coupler, and the tap port splits again with one leg going to my viewing TV and the other available to my test bench, so it is possible that this double balun somehow stabilizes the load impedance better than does my Leader meter by itself, but that, like so many things in antenna development, is just speculation.


A lot of time is spent at this forum with people speculating on how they MIGHT improve their S/N ratios by a fraction of a dB, but such theoretical improvements so small can easily be offset by other unintended effects. For example, when Mr. Breland calculated the expected losses for his 605Mz coaxial balun, which he reported to the nearest one-hundredth of a dB, he was assuming a perfect 300 ohm source, but the coaxial balun will be used to enable the nominally 300 ohm source to drive a 75 ohm load, which will enjoy less than optimal power transfer efficiency. The inefficiency of driving a 75 ohm load with a 300 ohm source could result in more signal reduction than is gained by minimizing the insertion loss. Maybe it is better to use a preamp with a natural 300 ohm input instead.


I am fortunate in that I do most of my work on high-rise buildings within ten miles of most of the transmitters, so my broadcast DVT antennas naturally develop S/N ratios of 40 to 60dB or more. But those of you who feel a need to scrounge for fractional increases to your own signal levels are commonly 40 miles or more from the transmitters, meaning that your signal goes through some vegetation, and just the rustling of distant leaves will make it go up and down by a few dB even on a clear day. If you have an unreliable signal lock, such that you occasionally experience pixelating or blocking or freezing, the likelihood that a fractional increase in your S/N ratio will notably improve the reliability of your reception link from unacceptable to acceptable is near zilch.


If you want to spend time and money improving your signal reliability, spend it on the antenna, the mast, the preamplifier or the aiming.


----------



## intrac

I'm in a situation where I have several strong locals that I receive off a side lobe (null at 30 degrees) on a CM4228, and the long distance sites (about 60-85 miles) that come in with drop-outs with the CM4228 aimed directly at them.


I'm looking at a pre-amp (originally the CM775) but have ordered the Winegard AP-4700 because it has some overload protection and slightly less gain (about 17 dB vs 26 dB).


1. Has anybody used the AP-4700?


2. What is the effect of overload?


The noise figures of the 2 pre-amps are not that different. My cable run is exactly 50' of RG-6.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *brianm0520* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do you think the 160" Long Dual Boom, 57 Element Antenna from RadioShack would do any good? It's on the radioshack website (i'd paste the url but its disabled right now)



The 160" antenna from Radio Shack is a VHF/UHF combo antenna. They never perform as well as the UHF-only antennas do. Most of that length is "wasted" on VHF elements - which doesn't do you any good for a UHF station. Add to that the problems the Radio Shacks have with durability, and you'd be better off buying the 91XG. AntennasDirect has an excellent return policy.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *intrac* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm in a situation where I have several strong locals that I receive off a side lobe (null at 30 degrees) on a CM4228, and the long distance sites (about 60-85 miles) that come in with drop-outs with the CM4228 aimed directly at them.



A preamplifier may or may not help you - and it may cause problems with those strong locals.


Overload causes your signal strength to drop. It can render a signal completely useless for digital reception.


----------



## greywolf

Those range claims are theorectical for line of sight transmission. They don't include niggling real world details such as the earth being spherical.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greywolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Those range claims are theorectical for line of sight transmission. They don't include niggling real world details such as the earth being spherical.



How could antenna dealers get away with such deception? Many products that I can think of have to carry "real world" ratings and we do have an FTC in the Fed. Govt. that I'm sure Radio Shack has no interest in being investigated by.


So I'm convinced that 100 miles and more is solidly achievable in many cases. It was for me even with a 75 mile RS antenna and even more so now with a 4228. Count me as one beyond a doubt skeptic of the 60 mile CW limit which I believe is often a disservice to new seekers of digital fringe reception.


----------



## greywolf

Sure many products have "real world" ratings. Many don't. The Radio Shack outdoor antenna line used to be named after the mileage rating. I have a VU-160 myself. It sure won't do 160mi. Thier biggest now used to be called a VU-190 but they used to make a 210. I have a 6 channel amp that claims 110W per channel. It's power consumption sticker says its uses 430W. Inputting 430W and outputting 600W is a pretty good trick too. How about diet pills? The FTC doesn't have the staff or funding to handle every case of false advertising.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland

Ray, I apologize that your reference thread has been hijacked.


In this thread I have stated clearly and concisely what materials and equipment were used in reference to UHF ATSC television reception. Mr. Breland has made no assumptions. I asserted that name brand ferrite baluns would have an insertion loss of ~ 1 to 1.5 dB in the UHF band. Links were provided to substantiate this statement. The Tektronix RFM151 has 10 times the resolution of the Leader LF 941 therefore I will not even comment on the values posted above except to say they are meaningless. In addition, the LF 941 is not suitable for DTV channel measurements, the LF 941D should be used. A 1/2λ coaxial balun does not have insertion loss in the design range.


A variant of a resistive 300Ω source: If the source (folded dipole for 9032 and 4248) should be 272Ω j, +127Ω i at the frequency of interest there will be a reduction in signal level of -0.229 dB using a 1/2λ coaxial balun. Under the same conditions a ferrite style balun with an insertion loss of 1.250 dB will have a total signal reduction of -1.556 dB (1.250 + 0.306).


*For those that have problems with hum:* I have used with success the MCM 33-8700 Ground Insolation Transformer for several years. If you place an order, use Source Code 53108, then click Update. Should be lower pricing.


For the DIY’s using 75Ω coax cable: Take two name brand 300Ω to 75Ω baluns, connect one 300Ω lead to the lead of a 150pF disc capacitor (I use disc caps with a 1KV DC rating). Connect the other lead of this disc capacitor to the second baluns 300Ω lead. Repeat these steps for the other 300Ω leads.


I have constructed these using a small aluminum box. The ferrite cores with their windings were removed from the original housing. The twin leads were discarded. The remaining components and the two disc caps were attached to a G10 perf board. A chassis mount F connector was installed at each end of the box. One of the F connectors *must be* mounted using fiber shoulder washers to isolate it from the box.



A recap: The Winegard Model PR-9032 in conjunction with a 1/2λ coaxial balun provides reliable reception of DTV Channel 52 in my area. Channel Master’s Model 4248 and Model 3021 (with Model 0089 Balun) did not provide reliable reception on this channel. Where DTV reception is concerned, a dB or so at the receiving antenna can mean the difference between reception and no reception.


FWIW: If one would like to analyze the data stream of a DTV signal check out TSReader . It can be used for OTA, Satellite and cable.


07-12-2005 Edited for clarification

07-13-2005 Attached a schematic of a 300Ω to 75Ω Ferrite Balun

11-23-2009 Update MCM link


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill Johnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How could antenna dealers get away with such deception? Many products that I can think of have to carry "real world" ratings and we do have an FTC in the Fed. Govt. that I'm sure Radio Shack has no interest in being investigated by.
> 
> 
> So I'm convinced that 100 miles and more is solidly achievable in many cases.



How do they get away with it? Because nobody really understands UHF signal propogation. But there's no denying that the 100-mile example won't hold up under normal conditions.


Now, I could take a bowtie (single, no reflector) from Radio Shack and place it 100 miles from Mount Wilson, California at a location with line-of-sight, and I'd get a dandy signal with it. But most cities aren't served by antennas located nearly 1000 meters above the average terrain.


The only numbers that really mean anything for comparing antennas is gain and front-to-back ratio. And on those numbers, the Radio Shack lineup is far inferior to many other brands.


I've got what I think is a fairly extreme setup - AntennasDirect 91XG mounted on a 54' tower with a 28db preamplifier, RG-11 cabling to a single outlet, and I can't get reliable reception from 75 miles away for UHF signals. That isn't to say that there aren't people in my city that can, but they're up on hills far taller than my tower. And the 91XG is the best antenna I've found so far, out of five different antennas. So either I should believe Bill Johnson when he says that 100 miles is possible, rip down my 16.7db gain, 28db F/B antenna and my 54' tower and replace it with a Radio Shack model on my roof (or even better, in my attic), or I should take their 100 mile "boast" and throw it in the garbage heap.


----------



## cpcat

I'd say do the latter.


----------



## sebenste




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've got what I think is a fairly extreme setup - AntennasDirect 91XG mounted on a 54' tower with a 28db preamplifier, RG-11 cabling to a single outlet, and I can't get reliable reception from 75 miles away for UHF signals. That isn't to say that there aren't people in my city that can, but they're up on hills far taller than my tower. And the 91XG is the best antenna I've found so far, out of five different antennas. So either I should believe Bill Johnson when he says that 100 miles is possible, rip down my 16.7db gain, 28db F/B antenna and my 54' tower and replace it with a Radio Shack model on my roof (or even better, in my attic), or I should take their 100 mile "boast" and throw it in the garbage heap.



My experience: take Radio Shack's reception distance number, in miles, on any of their antennas, and divide it by 2. Assuming relatively flat terrain, that is

much more realistic. And if you really want long range reception, I'd only

consider two antennas: the ChannelMaster 4228, which I have, and the

AntennasDirect XG-91. If your distant stations are all between channels 14-32,

grab the XG. If they're mostly higher than that, grab the 4228.


Sregener: If you don't have a red flashing beacon at the top of your tower to keep airplanes from crashing into it, it ain't extreme.


----------



## sebenste




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A preamplifier may or may not help you - and it may cause problems with those strong locals.
> 
> 
> Overload causes your signal strength to drop. It can render a signal completely useless for digital reception.



If you try an amplifier, make sure you can return it. I would say try it with an attenuator from Radio Shack. You can adjust the gain as necessary if

you are overloading.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> And if you really want long range reception, I'd only
> 
> consider two antennas: the ChannelMaster 4228, which I have, and the
> 
> AntennasDirect XG-91. If your distant stations are all between channels 14-32,
> 
> grab the XG. If they're mostly higher than that, grab the 4228.



I probably wouldn't narrow it down quite *that* much.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you try an amplifier, make sure you can return it. I would say try it with an attenuator from Radio Shack. You can adjust the gain as necessary if
> 
> you are overloading.



This will only prevent amplifier overload if you use the attenuator at the antenna before the input of the preamp. If you attenuate before the receiver, it can help with receiver overload (much less common) and also can help attenuate multipath in some situations.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *intrac* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm in a situation where I have several strong locals that I receive off a side lobe (null at 30 degrees) on a CM4228, and the long distance sites (about 60-85 miles) that come in with drop-outs with the CM4228 aimed directly at them.
> 
> 
> I'm looking at a pre-amp (originally the CM775) but have ordered the Winegard AP-4700 because it has some overload protection and slightly less gain (about 17 dB vs 26 dB).
> 
> 
> 1. Has anybody used the AP-4700?
> 
> 
> 2. What is the effect of overload?
> 
> 
> The noise figures of the 2 pre-amps are not that different. My cable run is exactly 50' of RG-6.



It depends on how close those locals are. The lower gain model is a better choice I'd say though with the relatively short run of cable. You could also try the CM 3041 model at Lowe's (returnable, 300 ohm input obviates need for balun).


Overload can cause drop outs or complete loss of digital signals (as was said). You can also see distortion even earlier in the analogs.


----------



## holl_ands

I posted measurements for seven different baluns, incl. the CM3075 Outdoor 3/4" Diameter Balun as fol:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/2489.html 


The CM3075 (from www.outpost.com , i.e. Frys) was the best of the several Outdoor Baluns tested,

but didn't have quite as low a loss as the several cheap indoor baluns tested.


The two different R-S Outdoor Balun models were measured to have significantly higher loss.


Note that since I retired and no longer have ready access to a room full of test equipment,

a non-traditional measurement method was used (dBmV measurements via Cable STB) for back-to-back baluns.


Also note fol. link to another balun test, including a DIY coax balun description:
http://www.kyes.com/antenna/balun.html


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sregener: If you don't have a red flashing beacon at the top of your tower to keep airplanes from crashing into it, it ain't extreme.



I'm sure the FAA would deny my permit request, as would the city I live in. As it is, I'm right on a major traffic pattern for aircraft, which caused all manner of problems with my less directional antennas. But most people won't spend $1000 for "free" TV.


----------



## carltonrice

Given that the vast majority of stations will end up after the digital transition on channels between 7 and 51, I was curious to know if there are antenna manufacturers making new antennas that are tuned specifically for these frequencies?


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So either I should believe Bill Johnson when he says that 100 miles is possible, rip down my 16.7db gain, 28db F/B antenna and my 54' tower and replace it with a Radio Shack model on my roof (or even better, in my attic), or I should take their 100 mile "boast" and throw it in the garbage heap.



I tend to agree with sebenste that 54 ft. may not be that extreme







especially when my single story house goes up nearly 25 ft. at the top and a 3-story one could easily go 40 ft. or more. But wouldn't it be something if reg indeed followed my hackneyed mantra everybody makes fun of, and tried an attic 4228 unamped single straight shot and got outstanding reception. None of us would blame him if he kept such a result to himself and in our fraternity we would be truly happy for him! True HD addicts crave OTA success for everybody!


Which reminds me: Despite CW, could RG-11 cabling conceivably be too much volume-wise on a long run and, notwithstanding the preamp, somehow help to spread out and degrade, rather than concentrating, the signals? Just a thought from a non-expert.


P.S. One final thought, we all make fun of RS, but, their return policy no questions asked, make them good starting points for digital newcomers.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill Johnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But wouldn't it be something if reg indeed followed my hackneyed mantra everybody makes fun of, and tried an attic 4228 unamped single straight shot and got outstanding reception. None of us would blame him if he kept such a result to himself and in our fraternity we would be truly happy for him! True HD addicts crave OTA success for everybody!
> 
> 
> Which reminds me: Despite CW, could RG-11 cabling conceivably be too much volume-wise on a long run and, notwithstanding the preamp, somehow help to spread out and degrade, rather than concentrating, the signals? Just a thought from a non-expert.
> 
> 
> P.S. One final thought, we all make fun of RS, but, their return policy no questions asked, make them good starting points for digital newcomers.



I have a paypal account, if you want to pay for the shipping and return shipping on this useless exercise. PM me if you're interested. I have the time and energy to stick an antenna up there, but I'm not going to waste $20 just to prove you wrong. If you're right, I'll give you double the money you put up for shipping.


The signals are so weak - at roof level, outdoors - that they aren't going to magically appear once I put an antenna behind shingles and plywood. If you want to see how "bad" my analog reception is, check this out: http://www.geocities.com/figbert/8vsb.html I can assure you that neither KSTC or WHLA were coming in with a color picture from my rooftop, with any antenna I tried.


Wires conduct electrical charges. The thicker the wire, the better the conduction. That's why you use heavier gauges over longer distances. Otherwise, the power company is wasting billions on those thick, heavy cables. Tests of line loss have demonstrated that RG-11 is superior to RG-6, not inferior to it. Any EE will verify why this would be so.


I agree that Radio Shack's return policy makes them a good starting point for people who are just playing around. My first antenna at this location was the Radio Shack U120 - based on recommendations on this forum from people who said it worked great. (Note: Radio Shack claims it has a 120 mile range.) The problems with Radio Shack antennas relate primarily to advertising and durability. They just don't perform as well as the Shack claims (note, they never claim to give right answers to your questions, just 'You've got questions, we've got answers') and they break down in the elements rather quickly. Some have reported broken elements after a crow sat on it. Others have reported rapid rust deterioration. If it's going in your attic, RS's products are fine, probably a hair below Channel Master and Winegard products of similar design and length. A good rule is to take their mileage numbers and divide by 2. That's been pretty close to accurate, in my experience.


I, too, want people to have success. I have a number of "notches" on my belt from people in this and other forums who have followed my advice and gotten excellent results. CW has served them and me very well. The ones who chose not to follow my advice usually come back shaking their heads and saying they made a mistake. Of course, every now and then someone like yourself is going to get lucky and get a signal when CW says you shouldn't. The problem is that you then believe your experience is typical, and start spouting it all over the Internet how easy this is and how the "experts" don't really know anything. Then people follow your advice, try things that are highly unlikely to work, and either get frustrated with the money they've wasted or buy cable and say "OTA just plain doesn't work." Personally, I'd rather people do things with the best chance of success the first time (within reason) rather than do experiment after experiment, which gets expensive in time, money, or both. Sure, anybody can try an antenna in their attic, but the odds are stacked against them. It just doesn't mean the house always wins.


----------



## dapack5

i too can ring in the radioshack models,since,i have tried all from the VU-90 to the VU-190!

at no point was i able to pull in our local channel 46 on analog,and antenna web says that i should ( rough distance 20 miles ) local channel 26,30 and 20 were extremely bad and they're listed between 16.9 and 18.5 miles away. i experimented with and without pre/power amp. i have since put up an old winegard UHF only antenna and using the radioshack 30db pre and power amp.


with this setup,i can receive channel 29 ( fox west palm beach, channel 4 cbs ( miami ) channel 5 nbc west palm beach,channel 42 pbs wpb and quite a few more and i am between 99 and 149 miles from these stations. granted 4,5, and 42 are not viewable at all times,but 29 and 29.1 ( the tube ) are stable almost 24 hours a day. none of the rs models can compare to this probably 15 to 20 year old winegard


i stand down from my soap box now







)


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dapack5* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> with this setup,i can receive channel 29 ( fox west palm beach, channel 4 cbs ( miami ) channel 5 nbc west palm beach,channel 42 pbs wpb and quite a few more and i am between 99 and 149 miles from these stations. granted 4,5, and 42 are not viewable at all times,but 29 and 29.1 ( the tube ) are stable almost 24 hours a day. none of the rs models can compare to this probably 15 to 20 year old winegard



Florida has a lot of water ducting, as well as some of the most active troposheric ducting on the planet. Plus, the state is pretty flat. All this adds up to some of the best long-distance reception in the world.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dapack5* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...with this setup,i can receive channel 29 ( fox west palm beach, channel 4 cbs ( miami ) channel 5 nbc west palm beach,channel 42 pbs wpb and quite a few more and *i am between 99 and 149 miles from these stations*.



OK, CW 60 mile limit people, explain pack5's phenomenal reception. S. Florida is flat as a board and elevation surely can't be in play as it may be somewhat with my 125 mile 24/7 digital reception. And geographically speaking, over water doesn't seem to be a factor either unless there's some bouncing off Lake Okeechobee.

















This reinforces my advice: Initially ignore CW and see what you can get!


----------



## Bill Johnson

daMan has reg and me tripping all over ourselves concerning his reception. Tropo and water ducting is too variable to be giving daMan such reception.


----------



## AntAltMike

If I recall correctly, I once installed a Terk, "magic wand" shaped antenna for carltonrice under a rain gutter, which was better suited to function as a rain gutter.


The Winegard PR-9XXX antennas showed really ugly polar plots at the highest frequencies, so they are probably "tuned" as well as they will ever be for channels 14-51. The front-to-back ratio at high frequencies is horrible and its gain is about 4dB less at channel 69 than at channel 50. The polar plots on the HDTVPrimer site look more like what you'd get of you took about one tenth as many polar points and connected them with a French Curve. If they developed those plots with a primitive simulator, I wonder if it took into account the fact that the mast is in front of the dipole in that series of antenna, and has greater disruptive effect on the shorter wavelengths.


There are probably more people here who got better performance by switching from a PR-9032 to a CM4248 than vice versa, but what most of them don't realize is, the antenna that worked better for them was the one that had the more fortuitously located troughs between its side lobes.


By the way, eight of the eleven channels I measured the signal loss on were analogs. And for the other three, who cares if I am measuring peak or RMS? The loss will be the same.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *carltonrice* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Given that the vast majority of stations will end up after the digital transition on channels between 7 and 51, I was curious to know if there are antenna manufacturers making new antennas that are tuned specifically for these frequencies?



A channel 7 antenna only needs to be about 30 or so inches wide. Nearly all of the lowband transmitters in the largest metropolitan markets are giving up their lowband assignment. In my market, 2, 4, and 5 will be staying on UHF, whereas 7, 9, 11 and 13 will be moving down. I think you'll see a lot of 7-51 antennas. The booms will be nearly as long as they are now, but they will have much less wind load and will last a lot longer.


----------



## dapack5

i forgot to mention that my antenna is only about 25ft in the air and it's not on a tower just a channel master channel scoping mast ( total height 30ft ). i had it to 30 ft 1 time so far and didn't have the guy wires yet and the wind we had bent the mast,so, i had to lower it back and will re extend it after we get some good enough weather for me to do so and add the guy wires. my exact location is lehigh acres,fl. ( lee county ) which is 99 miles from wpb and 149 miles from miami


----------



## ctdish

I just received a Research Communications 9250 UHF preamp with a specified gain of 20 dB and a noise figure of 0.4 db. As seen here: http://www.researchcomms.com/hdtv.html I have verified the gain here, but it is going to be a while before I connect it to an antenna. If anyone nearby (SE CT or RI) has away to test it let me know. John


----------



## kocho

I've tried several indoor antenas and so far have not found a better one than what I currently have - an old (6+ years at least) Recoton 350 non-amplified antenna. It has UHF and VHF reception that hands down beats the likes of Radio Shack's 1880 or RCA ANT200 (both amplified).


I now use the Recoton with my Panasonic TH-42PX50U and I get all digital channels in the DC area and a quite decent reception of most analog channels. In contrast, the RadioShack could only get some of the digital and was notably worse on most analog channels - and it worked OK only if the amp was off or close to max... Go figure...


I guess they don't make them like this anymore - if anyone knows a good indoor antenna for a metropolitan area, please post.


Thanks!


----------



## JohnSwenson

I have two antennas, a UHF and VHF, pointed in different directions. Both are 300ohm feed so I have a cheap balun on each and a VHF/UHF passive combiner. I'm getting a fair amount of signal loss through the baluns and combiner.


I was wondering if a preamp such as the Channel Master 0264 with separate UHF and VHF 300 ohm inputs would be a good idea here. The preamp just has two baluns, a combiner then the amp I don't see how it would help all that much. If it has two preamps, one on each input then the combiner I think it would be a big help. Any body have any idea whats inside these? Any other preamp that would do what I want?


Thanks,


John S.


----------



## Chispa

Hello,

We ordered and are are anxiously waiting for a new 50" plasma, speakers and new components. I did some research on the forum when shopping for the plasma and speakers ... so my husband sent me back to ask you guys about an antenna










We currently have Dish network and my husband just called them and upgraded our PVRs. We are west of Boston/ Rt.95/128, I guess 10-15 miles from Needham ( I believe that is were the signals originate?). Live in an area of single family homes, no known obstacles in area. Peak of attic is at 35-40 ft off the ground.


What would you recommend for an attic antenna? Will an attic antenna be enough? Any other information would be great. Thanks


(I posted this on the Boston OTA area but was just ignored







)


----------



## CEB II

How about a Zip Code so we can look at antennaweb and see what DTV you can potentially receive? Based on that, I'm sure someone here can make an attic antenna recommendation.


----------



## Kamakzie

Hey guys I ordered an antenna off of eBay and I guess according to the reviews it works good but it's made cheaply and I don't want to put it up on the roof in fear of it dying in the winter due to icing. I am thinking about putting it in the attic instead. How much will this detract from the signal strength?


----------



## holl_ands

Attic Loss, including on-air measurements by Bob Chase, was discussed in 30Mar2005 post:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5410432 

Using same antenna in different attic locations, the loss was between 10-15 dB, except

for some measurements as high as 25 dB.

In earlier 28Mar2005 post, he provided outdoor vs indoor measurements for six antennas:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5399471 

And here's his 24Sep2005 (outdoor only) comparison of eight antennas:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6245872 


Fol. report by Gary Sgrignoli summarizes many U.S. on-air test results, which

includes measurement of the difference between outdoor vs indoor signal strengths:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/lo...hDecision=-203 

Median Indoor Loss (half are more, half are less) is generally in the range of 10-15 dB.


I have also seen measurements made in other countries (e.g. Brazil),which are consistent

with the above numbers. But since I have not (yet) visited those countries I don't know

how to relate their measurements to typical house construction techniques.


So in my calculations I assume 13 dB +/- 7 dB for attic or indoor attenuation.

Of course if you have a good shot out a window, the value should be lower.

On the other hand, if you have aluminum foil insulation, foil thermal wrap or

stucco wire mesh walls the loss value will be higher. And worst case is metal roof.


These actual signal strength numbers do NOT include the additional degradation

that will be experienced due to multipath reflections from nearby objects. This

could cause several more dB of performance degradation and is highly dependent

on how well your ATSC receiver handles various multipath conditions, esp. short

delay multipath that is roughly the same strength as the primary signal. The

early ATSC receivers had a particulary difficult time handling this common condition.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Chispa* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> We ordered and are are anxiously waiting for a new 50" plasma, speakers and new components. I did some research on the forum when shopping for the plasma and speakers ... so my husband sent me back to ask you guys about an antenna
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We currently have Dish network and my husband just called them and upgraded our PVRs. We are west of Boston/ Rt.95/128, I guess 10-15 miles from Needham ( I believe that is were the signals originate?). Live in an area of single family homes, no known obstacles in area. Peak of attic is at 35-40 ft off the ground.
> 
> 
> What would you recommend for an attic antenna? Will an attic antenna be enough? Any other information would be great. Thanks
> 
> 
> (I posted this on the Boston OTA area but was just ignored
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )



All the Boston digitals are UHF. Assuming you don't need the analogs, a CM 4221 in the attic would be my first choice. You shouldn't need a preamp.


----------



## nnd

I'm trying to find an indoor antenna that works for me. I live 3 miles away from the towers in washington, dc and a little over 30 miles from the towers in baltimore. I'm on the 10th floor of a 17 story building and am next to another building about the same size which is in the same direction of the washington dc towers.


Now, I tried the Terk HDTVi antenna and when I aim it towards the DC towers I can't pick up the stations eventhough I'm only 3 miles away, however it picks up the Balitmore stations which are over 30 miles away. Is there something about being too close or are the buildings blocking my reception. What's strange is when the antenna is aimed towards dc it picks up the baltimore stations.


So next I tried the Jensen amplified TV920 antenna, and basically didn't pick anything up.


For now I'm sticking with the Terk antenna, but want to know if anyone would have an indoor antenna suggestion which would help me get the stations which are just down the road from me.


Thanks.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nnd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live 3 miles away from the towers in washington, dc and a little over 30 miles from the towers in baltimore. I'm on the 10th floor of a 17 story building and am next to another building about the same size which is in the same direction of the washington dc towers.



That other building is blocking your local signals, meaning you'll have to catch a reflection from somewhere else if you're going to get anything at all. You also will likely have multipath. You could try a variable attenuator from Radio Shack, but I doubt it will make a difference. Count yourself lucky to get the Baltimore stations and enjoy watching HD from there.


Anything with an amplifier is a bad idea in your situation.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nnd* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm trying to find an indoor antenna that works for me. I live 3 miles away from the towers in washington, dc and a little over 30 miles from the towers in baltimore. I'm on the 10th floor of a 17 story building and am next to another building about the same size which is in the same direction of the washington dc towers.



Does your building have a master antenna system for reception of 4, 5, 7, 9, 20 and 26 in addition to cable TV? If they do, send me a PM and I will add them to my mailing list for adding HDTV to their master antenna system. I've done several large buildings in Arlington. Some get Baltimore in addition to DC but some don't.


----------



## nnd




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does your building have a master antenna system for reception of 4, 5, 7, 9, 20 and 26 in addition to cable TV? If they do, send me a PM and I will add them to my mailing list for adding HDTV to their master antenna system. I've done several large buildings in Arlington. Some get Baltimore in addition to DC but some don't.



I don't believe so. I know they have a setup with Star Power and Comcast. You can always send them a letter, 8200 Wisconsin Ave, Bethesda, MD 20814 or call them at 301-654-8200.


----------



## pup73

hi everyone,


i have a quick and probably naive question about OTA HDTV antennas and cable tv. my new tv will arrive this friday. in anticipation, i just bought a zenith silver sensor antenna. my cable provider does not broadcast in HD, and i cannot get satellite due to building restrictions. so my plan was to watch standard def cable, and use the indoor antenna for local HD broadcasts. my new tv has a built in HD tuner. do i need to physically switch the incoming coaxial cable between the OTA antenna and my cable, each time i want to switch between broadcasts? or will the antenna/HD tuner be able to switch? if i need to switch manually, are there any other indoor antennas that does that automatically?


thanks for any info


-c


----------



## holl_ands

pup73: What brand & model number HDTV? You should download manual from manufacturer's website.


Most HDTV's have two (or more) inputs: one for on-air antenna and another for cable.


----------



## rgathright

Have a friend that is trying to find the Silver Sensor locally, but all he finds is the Terk version.


Is this model Terk any good or is it still c***?


----------



## pup73

thanks for the reply...


its a samsung 6168. i have downloaded the owners manual...i'll check it out .


thanks


-c


----------



## dturturro

OK, I tried searching for Indoor Antennas and I see the Zenith Silver Sensor is the general consensus for UHF reception but is their a VHF/UHF equivalent or do you need a rooftop antenna for low band VHF reception?


----------



## HiTymz

I hope this is the right thread...


Having issues receiving HD through Dish Network. They way the dish is setup now we have a 3LNB dish and are getting Sats A&C @ 86% Can't get Sat B. Move the dish a bit and we can get SAT B but not A&C. Is there a bigger dish we can get to make this work? According to the crappy tech support we have to be able to get all 3 sats....is that true. After many calls to dish I made sure they actually had the HD channels on our account (first thing I could think of is that it wasn't authroized on our card) I really don't see how its possible to get all three sats to hit the dish without a bigger one.


Location is Anderson Island Wa.


Thanks in advance and any help ois greatly appreciated!


----------



## kenglish

Have seen, on these forums, that the Silver Sensor is far better.


----------



## Late-adopter

I'm new to HDTV (just got my plasma TV) and wonder if someone can help with a few questions.


I bought a CM 4221 antenna and am ready to install it in my attic. I live about 20 miles from the TV transmitter. It seems RG6 cable comes in 25, 50 and 100 ft. lengths. I need about 30 ft in one spot, or 60 ft. if I mount it in another area. I'll have to drill some holes and drop through my walls, but before I do . . .


Questions:


1. Assuming I have a "pretty good" signal to start with, will the cable length (going to 50 or 100 ft.) make a significant difference in signal strength?


2. Should I try and optimize by cutting cable to 30 (or 60) ft?


3. Should I automatically use a preamp with the longer lengths, or not bother until I hook it up and see what I get on TV?


4. I assume RG 6 is the right cable thickness. As far as quality goes, is there a specific quality cable I should be buying (an extra 10 bucks or so doesn't matter), or is RG6 all I need to know?


Thanks.


----------



## intrac




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Late-adopter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 
> 1. Assuming I have a "pretty good" signal to start with, will the cable length (going to 50 or 100 ft.) make a significant difference in signal strength?
> 
> 
> 2. Should I try and optimize by cutting cable to 30 (or 60) ft?
> 
> 
> 3. Should I automatically use a preamp with the longer lengths, or not bother until I hook it up and see what I get on TV?
> 
> 
> 4. I assume RG 6 is the right cable thickness. As far as quality goes, is there a specific quality cable I should be buying (an extra 10 bucks or so doesn't matter), or is RG6 all I need to know?
> 
> 
> Thanks.



1. There will be a slight difference between 50 or 100 ft. Try to keep to the smallest length possible.


2. Is the cable pre-made with connectors? If yes, then try to get a proper length. If no connectors, then make as long as you need.


3. Don't try a pre-amp unless you need it. At 20 mi., I doub't if you need one.


4. RG-6 is the right cable.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Late-adopter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1. Assuming I have a "pretty good" signal to start with, will the cable length (going to 50 or 100 ft.) make a significant difference in signal strength?
> 
> 
> 2. Should I try and optimize by cutting cable to 30 (or 60) ft?
> 
> 
> 3. Should I automatically use a preamp with the longer lengths, or not bother until I hook it up and see what I get on TV?
> 
> 
> 4. I assume RG 6 is the right cable thickness. As far as quality goes, is there a specific quality cable I should be buying (an extra 10 bucks or so doesn't matter), or is RG6 all I need to know?



1. At 20 miles, you should be fine, even at 100'. Loss is only around 6db over that length on channel 51, and you should have a lot more that that.


2. Optimize if you're putting on your own ends. Otherwise, don't sweat it.


3. No preamp should be used at 20 miles, unless you're physically blocked.


4. Look for quad-shielded RG-6 if you want some extra protection, but regular RG-6 should be fine.


----------



## bobchase

cpcat & holl_ands


Before I had to go out of town (late June) we were having a discussion about antenna combining. My minimum loss pads were destroyed on the trip or I would have some preliminary data as to why I 'dissed' hoizontal stacking with a power combiner.


I'm breaking in a new Trilithic rep (what's a minimum loss pad?) or they would have been waiting for me when I got back. After they get here I will run a sweep of some cheap splitters in split/combine mode and pass them on. If 'the force' is with me, some combined antennas too.


Bob Chase

KHWB


PS Please keep up the excellent work you two do guiding the innocent to the light...


----------



## araknis

I can't seem to get any HD channels when I do the scan in my Voom box. I am in 92630. Strange thing is this is a UHF only antenna and when I plug it in directly to my TV, I get VHF channels perfectly, no UHF channels. Any ideas?


----------



## holl_ands

antennaweb.org says you should receive numerous UHF stations (i.e. light-green).


Since UHF doesn't work for either your "new" VOOM OTA receiver or the TV,

perhaps the antenna/coax system has a bad connection somewhere.....


And since VHF is so strong and tends to leak into everything,

it could be coming in good despite whether the coax is good or bad.


Not to overlook the obvious, the smaller end of the U-75R should point towards compass heading 318 degrees,

which is about 332 degrees true north, or about 30 degrees to the LEFT of NORTH on a map.

[Hey....not everyone is an antenna expert. Someone actually admitted to pointing the other way....]


----------



## joebar32

Does anyone have any experience with the sat dish style ant's like terk TV42 and TV44 that clip onto the dish?


I haven't tried an ant yet to see what kind of reception I get, but I'm guessing it should be pretty decent considering on a good weather day I have line of sight to the broadcast ant's on the Sears and Hancock 20 miles away.


----------



## RayL Jr.

Interesting concept. Looks like a big paper clip bent around the dish:











Seems not as good as say a 2-bay indoor/outdoor antenna, but for stronger or line-of-sight reception areas. Otherwise most reviews (also on the TV50) seems to relegate them to "a piece of junk"... At least from some Terk reviews @ AudioReview .


If you really want/need a streamlined solution & have the bigger dish for the TV42, it might actually work pretty good in your case. If there's a return policy, maybe try it just before some bad weather hits.


Otherwise if you have room for an outdoor 2-bay, you can get a stronger signal or at least are more guaranteed to for about the same price.


----------



## HiTymz

Does anyone have any info on my post?


Does anyone know what thread or maybe a diffeent website to contact?


Thanks again!


----------



## mrtbig

Below is my antennaweb search for zip 77665


What do I need for the Houston stations?


Thanks!


DTV Antenna

Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live

Date Compass

Orientation Miles

From Frequency

Assignment

blue - uhf KAZH 57 AZA BAYTOWN TX 230° 61.6 57

blue - uhf KRIV 26 FOX HOUSTON TX 252° 67.4 26

blue - vhf KBMT 12 ABC BEAUMONT TX 47° 40.2 12

blue - uhf KTBU 55 IND CONROE TX 300° 51.3 55

blue - uhf KLTJ 22 DAY GALVESTON TX 230° 61.6 22

blue - uhf KITU 34 REL BEAUMONT TX 47° 38.7 34

violet - uhf KETH 14 TBN HOUSTON TX 251° 68.2 14

violet - vhf KBTV 4 NBC PORT ARTHUR TX 44° 34.1 4

violet - vhf KPRC 2 NBC HOUSTON TX 251° 67.9 2

violet - uhf KPXB 49 PAX CONROE TX 297° 58.7 49

violet - vhf KHOU 11 CBS HOUSTON TX 251° 68.1 11

violet - uhf KFTH 67 TFA ALVIN TX 251° 67.9 67

violet - uhf KHWB 39 WB HOUSTON TX 251° 67.9 39

violet - vhf KFDM 6 CBS BEAUMONT TX 45° 33.7 6

* violet - uhf KFDM-DT 6.1 CBS BEAUMONT TX 45° 33.7 21

violet - uhf KBPX-LP 33 PAX HOUSTON TX 252° 68.4 33

violet - vhf K09VO 9 HTN BEAUMONT TX 53° 22.5 9

violet - vhf KUHT 8 PBS HOUSTON TX 252° 67.4 8

violet - uhf KNWS 51 IND KATY TX 251° 68.1 51

violet - uhf KTMD 48 TEL GALVESTON TX 240° 54.8 48

violet - vhf KTRK 13 ABC HOUSTON TX 252° 67.4 13

violet - uhf KXLN 45 UNI ROSENBERG TX 251° 68.5 45

violet - uhf KZJL 61 SAH NASHVILLE TN 251° 68.2 61

violet - uhf KTXH 20 UPN HOUSTON TX 252° 68.4 20

violet - uhf KVHP 29 FOX LAKE CHARLES LA 53° 59.2 29


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HiTymz* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any info on my post?
> 
> 
> Does anyone know what thread or maybe a diffeent website to contact?



If you have a triple-LNB dish, it should be able to get all three satellites. You may not be aiming it properly - see if there's two spots where you get A&C but not B, and then go in between the two.


The non-HD satellite forum might have more help for you.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mrtbig* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Below is my antennaweb search for zip 77665
> 
> 
> What do I need for the Houston stations?



They only list one digital, and it's violet. But based on what I know of the Houston area and its topography, I'd guess that you can get more than that. If you also want analogs, a good VHF/UHF combo antenna like the Winegard HD7084P or Channel Master 3678 should work well. I'd avoid putting a preamplifier on the system until you've verified that you're having problems with weak signals (looks like snow on analogs) instead of multipath (looks like ghosts on analog.) If all you want is UHF channels, the AntennasDirect 43XG, 91XG, DB4 or Channel Master 4221 would all be good places to start.


----------



## mrtbig

On the AVS Forum official guide which is 2nd sticky to this forum it shows7 stations sending HD signals in Houston and there is 1 in Beaumont. In CEA it shows distance from me on some of them around 67 miles.


Would the DB8 multidirectional antenna fit my bill? It says 70 miles or more and covers 14-69.


Could this possibly be put in attic or would it need exterior install due to distance?


Also, would I need another antenna for channel 2, 8, 11, 13 in Houston and 6 in Beaumont?


Thanks!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mrtbig* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Would the DB8 multidirectional antenna fit my bill? It says 70 miles or more and covers 14-69.
> 
> 
> Could this possibly be put in attic or would it need exterior install due to distance?
> 
> 
> Also, would I need another antenna for channel 2, 8, 11, 13 in Houston and 6 in Beaumont?



Oh, dear. 67 miles! That's pushing things - don't know what I was reading this morning. I'd say the DB8 is a good choice for that distance. And get a strong preamplifier, like the Channel Master 7777. The 91XG is a much better choice if you're trying for stations in more than one direction (say, more than 30 degrees apart) as the multi-bowties are murder on rotors. And the DB8 isn't really "multidirectional." That's a mistake on the AntennasDirect website.


Yes, you would need a VHF antenna for channels 2-6 definitely, and probably for 7-13 as well. The Winegard HD4053 would be a good choice.


----------



## bobchase

mrtbg,


Here are the Houston stations you might get, if the weather is kind to you:


Station Offerings: (last update 5/6/05)

Call Sign (Network, Network HD Standard) - Analog Channel, Digital channel

Sub-channel details


KPRC (NBC, 1080i) - Analog: 2, Digital: 35

2-1 - HDTV (1080i)

2-2 - SDTV simulcast (480i)


----------



## JohnSwenson

A couple days ago I put in a coax balun instead of the cheap $1.79 unit and my signal reception is much better now. I guess the 1.79 unit really did have a significant insertion loss. The signal is now stable all the time (it used to go in and out as airplanes went over head, which is a major pain since we're under the flight path for three airports). Everything is now great all the local stations come in rock solid all the time.


John S.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mrtbig* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Could this possibly be put in attic or would it need exterior install due to distance?



Years ago our family doctor, who has since passed away, practiced a reliable medical approach I believe is applicable to OTA reception & mrt's situation. If you went to him with an extremely painful toe, as a ridiculous hypothetical example I'm using to make a point, at the outset he wouldn't prescribe the most powerful pain deadening drug he could find in his medical arsenal . Rather, he would say take two tylenol and if it's not better by this evening, call me at home and and I'll prescribe some tylenol tablets embedded with codeine.


Sure enough that evening the toe still hurt and I picked up the tylenol/codeine tablets. By the next morning, the toe was better but still painful. A call to the doctor elicited the advice to continue the codeine, but call him by evening if no marked improvement. That evening with no further improvement he prescribed a powerful addictive pain deadening narcotic with horrendous side effects. Within hours the toe totally stopped hurting, but I was awake all night sick as a dog. The next day I knew the toe was no longer a problem, but mild nausea continued for days.


So I say to mrt, get a 4228 for $40 from Warren online, (a DB8 is $100], put it in the attic, run a straight shot QS RG 6 to the TV and see what digital stations you can pick up. By the way, is anybody on this board with options actually interested in analog (ugh







)??


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill Johnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ....
> 
> 
> So I say to mrt, get a 4228 for $40 from Warren online, (a DB8 is $100], put it in the attic, run a straight shot QS RG 6 to the TV and see what digital stations you can pick up. By the way, is anybody on this board with options actually interested in analog (ugh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )??



the person you are telling to out and get a 4228 is, for one, because he specified them in his post.


Besides the 4228 won't get the PBS Digital station he is asking for either, even if he does forego analog reception.


Then there is the little problem a 15dB attenuator in the signal path called an attic....


Bob Chase


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> the person you are telling to out and get a 4228 is, for one, because he specified them in his post.



It seemed like mrt is kind of looking for general help rather than framing specific questions; and, if his only options are vhf analog, than of course he should go for it. But my attic 4228 pulls in Ch. 7 and 9 at a distance of 125 miles and Ch. 8 at 100 miles all analog and rock solid so he shouldn't write off a 4228 under any circumstance IMHO.



> Quote:
> Besides the 4228 won't get the PBS Digital station he is asking for either, even if he does forego analog reception.



At 8.7 kW and 70 miles, is there any antenna that would?



> Quote:
> Then there is the little problem a 15dB attenuator in the signal path called an attic....



With all due regard and not being smart alecky, I think we should always be leery of CW. My experience tells me to always advise newcomers to be skeptical of claims that attics reduce signals by 30, 60, or almost 100%. That signal, as I've posted before, just made a Herculean effort to travel a huge distance through all kinds of unimaginable clutter in the air. And why should I believe that 1/16 inch of shingles and an inch of plywood is gonna stop it pretty much dead in its tracks! Fortunately, I didn't listen to such CW even with my huge distances; and no, not all will have my success, but before one puts up a 60 ft. tower -- hey we HD addicts all are willing to go to extremes and I'm not downing necessary towers -- but before extremes are tried, I like to preach basics.


----------



## holl_ands

Significant indoor/attic loss (about 13 dB +/- 6 dB or more) is not just conventional wisdom.

After a "little" research, I found that it's backed up by mountains of measurements.


If you reread my post on 7/17/05, you'll see summary results for numerous on-air test programs

that included measurement of the difference between outdoor and indoor signal levels.

Plus Bob Chase's actual measurements in his attic.

Plus several other studies with literally thousands of measurements not cited here.


NIST did some in-lab measurements of attenuation of simple wood and brick "panels"

and found numbers that were much less than the actual house measurements

(uhhh....but wouldn't the signal leak around the panels???)

And a real house would have electrical wires, foil backed insulation, appliances...
http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build97/art123.html 


So NTIA went out and built a "simulated" house structure, put it on a flat

bed and towed it all around Boulder, CO. The difference between the outdoor

and indoor signal levels were all over the place, depending a lot on which

way the windows were oriented. I calculated the average to be 12.7 dB.

Obviously, if it were a real, full-sized house or enclosed attic, the loss would be higher.
http://www.its.bldrdoc.gov/pub/ntia-rpt/03-405/


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JohnSwenson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A couple days ago I put in a coax balun instead of the cheap $1.79 unit and my signal reception is much better now. I guess the 1.79 unit really did have a significant insertion loss. The signal is now stable all the time (it used to go in and out as airplanes went over head, which is a major pain since we're under the flight path for three airports). Everything is now great all the local stations come in rock solid all the time.
> 
> 
> John S.



I've tried this as well (compared to the CM 0089) and couldn't really tell a difference. YMMV. They're not easy to make, either.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill Johnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Years ago our family doctor, who has since passed away, practiced a reliable medical approach I believe is applicable to OTA reception & mrt's situation. If you went to him with an extremely painful toe, as a ridiculous hypothetical example I'm using to make a point, at the outset he wouldn't prescribe the most powerful pain deadening drug he could find in his medical arsenal . Rather, he would say take two tylenol and if it's not better by this evening, call me at home and and I'll prescribe some tylenol tablets embedded with codeine.
> 
> 
> Sure enough that evening the toe still hurt and I picked up the tylenol/codeine tablets. By the next morning, the toe was better but still painful. A call to the doctor elicited the advice to continue the codeine, but call him by evening if no marked improvement. That evening with no further improvement he prescribed a powerful addictive pain deadening narcotic with horrendous side effects. Within hours the toe totally stopped hurting, but I was awake all night sick as a dog. The next day I knew the toe was no longer a problem, but mild nausea continued for days.
> 
> 
> So I say to mrt, get a 4228 for $40 from Warren online, (a DB8 is $100], put it in the attic, run a straight shot QS RG 6 to the TV and see what digital stations you can pick up. By the way, is anybody on this board with options actually interested in analog (ugh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )??



An *actual* principle of medicine is that you don't waste time with treatments that don't work. Patients don't like it and it may even provide the condition with an opportunity to get worse (very bad medicine).


If people at fringe/deep fringe distance want to waste time in their hot attic for no good reason, let them make that decision on their own. Don't actually try to steer them in that direction. This is supposed to be a board where people can count on sound advice. For the umpteenth time, your reception is very atypical or even an aberration. You have no basis for making these recommendations.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill Johnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> With all due regard and not being smart alecky, I think we should always be leery of CW.



With all due regard and not being smart alecky, it might be wise to listen to a station engineer whose job it is to help people actually receive his station, and probably has more education and real-world experience than all of us amateur "experts" put together.


If I were mrtbig, I'd take Mr. Chase up on his generous offer.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> With all due regard and not being smart alecky, it might be wise to listen to a station engineer whose job it is to help people actually receive his station, and probably has more education and real-world experience than all of us amateur "experts" put together.



reg and others are probably speaking sound wisdom here, myself being a person that may have just "lucked out" on OTA reception. Nevertheless, concerning CW, I still remember a Charlottesville, Virginia station's chief engineer thinking no way would I get his station's digital signal even when it went from a kW or two to 1,000 kW. But I get it and it knocks my signal meter off the scale.


One final note he weakly croaks defensively, feeling under stress but still somewhat determined: We've just spent probably thousands of dollars for HDTV, so what would 40 more dollars hurt and what would a couple of more days be, to make sure we haven't prematurely & preemptively ruled out the safety of the attic with all its tremendous advantages.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I calculated the average to be 12.7 dB.



And since dB is a logarithmic scale, with every 3dB representing a doubling (or is this case halving,) about 1/16th of the signal, on average, makes it through.


The "little signal that could" story about how a little plywood and asphalt shingles aren't going to stop a signal in its tracks, while inspiring, flies in the face of real-world testing.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill Johnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> We've just spent probably thousands of dollars for HDTV, so what would 40 more dollars hurt and what would a couple of more days be, to make sure we haven't prematurely & preemptively ruled out the safety of the attic with all its tremendous advantages.



Most people assume that rich people aren't careful with their money. As the book, "The Millionaire Next Door" set out to show, rich people are often rich because they are the most careful with their money.


I don't think an attic offers any real safety or other advantages, beyond ease of installation.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't think an attic offers any real safety or other advantages, beyond ease of installation.



Definitely the words of a 60 ft tower man! But here again are some attic advantages that I'm happy about (and in no particular order):


1. No wind

2. No lightning

3. No falling to the ground and breaking one's neck or leg

4. "Ease of installation"

5. No deterioration due to weather

6. Adjustments made in any weather

7. No HOA or neighbor problems

8. No wife problems

9. Shorter cable run


----------



## wildwillie6




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't think an attic offers any real safety or other advantages, beyond ease of installation.



From my standpoint, the attic has lots of safety and convenience advantages:


1. No danger of falling if I go into my attic rather than up on the roof.

2. No danger of getting a big mast into power lines in my attic.

3. No concern about wind damage in the attic.

4. No aesthetic issues about an antenna hidden in the attic.

5. I really can do it myself in the attic. If I go out on the roof, I'm calling a pro. What's more, if I want to change an angle or add an antenna facing another direction, I can do that.


That's why I tried an attic installation. Unfortunately, the signal loss was all too real, and so I ended up calling the pros. Even so, I left the cable in place and it recently helped me to get a signal from a different direction with a separate antenna, now integrated into my system with a Join-Tenna.


I would agree that attics can be dangerous places, and that those comfortable with working on the roof can easily do antenna installations. And yes, my wife now sees our tall mast and huge antenna as "part of the landscape." And, I understand why pro installers don't want to fiddle around with an attic installation.


But if I could get good reception from an attic antenna, I'd far prefer it. And I don't regret trying the attic first.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill Johnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But here again are some attic advantages that I'm happy about (and in no particular order):
> 
> 
> 1. No wind
> 
> 2. No lightning
> 
> 3. No falling to the ground and breaking one's neck or leg
> 
> 4. "Ease of installation"
> 
> 5. No deterioration due to weather
> 
> 6. Adjustments made in any weather
> 
> 7. No HOA or neighbor problems
> 
> 8. No wife problems
> 
> 9. Shorter cable run



1. A properly installed antenna should not pose any problems until the roof itself would also fail. My improperly installed antenna on my roof survived 80mph winds that felled large trees.


2. A properly grounded antenna is less attractive to lightning than the roof, the driveway, or the idiot standing out in his front yard watching the storm clouds.


3. 4, 5. Points.


6. Who needs to adjust an outdoor antenna? Fix it and forget it. Attic antennas end up needing far more adjustments.


7. HOAs can go perform unnatural acts to themselves, with the FCC's blessing.


8. I would think most wives would prefer not to suffer dropouts during "Desperate Housewives" than have a little bit of metal showing on their house. In spite of my 54' tower, few people who visit, even those who know about it, notice it. My parents visited for an entire week and never saw it.


9. Now this one is ironic! You think a few inches of plywood and shingles won't kill a signal (real world test suggest 13dB signal loss) but a few extra feet of cable (real world test suggest 3dB/100ft) would?!?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wildwillie6* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 2. No danger of getting a big mast into power lines in my attic.
> 
> 
> ...I would agree that attics can be dangerous places, and that those comfortable with working on the roof can easily do antenna installations.



You should never install an antenna near power lines! Period. If you can't avoid them, don't do an install!


I'm a very nervous person with heights. I'm also not a handy person. But I managed to do an install on my roof (and tested many different antennas) without problems. I find cleaning out the gutters to be far more dangerous, as it involves leaning over the edge of the roof, while I could hug the chimney during the antenna install.


----------



## Bill Johnson

Not to belabor an issue some of us clearly have differences of opinion on, but as I was leisurely mowing my 5 acres around the house a thought occurred to me for the first time. Would there be any good effect on attic, or external roof for that matter, signal reception by the bare metal ridge vent running the length of my house nearly perpendicular to the incoming signals? And would the chimney with all its metal configurations extending only several feet from my attic antenna also serve as some type of big signal collector to enhance my long distance reception?


Knife-edge diffraction, permanent tropo ducting, bouncing signals off of and through mountain peaks & valleys, etc. etc. just don't seem to account for my reception which I think more people could somewhat duplicate if they tried.


Just a thought from a non-expert as I can clearly geographically hear the perhaps deserved snickering all the way from Bridgewater a few miles away to Corbin, KY and to SE Minn.


----------



## CEB II




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1. A properly installed antenna should not pose any problems until the roof itself would also fail. My improperly installed antenna on my roof survived 80mph winds that felled large trees.
> 
> 
> 2. A properly grounded antenna is less attractive to lightning than the roof, the driveway, or the idiot standing out in his front yard watching the storm clouds.
> 
> 
> 3. 4, 5. Points.
> 
> 
> 6. Who needs to adjust an outdoor antenna? Fix it and forget it. Attic antennas end up needing far more adjustments.
> 
> 
> 7. HOAs can go perform unnatural acts to themselves, with the FCC's blessing.
> 
> 
> 8. I would think most wives would prefer not to suffer dropouts during "Desperate Housewives" than have a little bit of metal showing on their house. In spite of my 54' tower, few people who visit, even those who know about it, notice it. My parents visited for an entire week and never saw it.
> 
> 
> 9. Now this one is ironic! You think a few inches of plywood and shingles won't kill a signal (real world test suggest 13dB signal loss) but a few extra feet of cable (real world test suggest 3dB/100ft) would?!?



I just have to wade in on this one.


1. You were lucky your antenna survived that wind. Wind storms in my area rip antennas off cars at ground level. They also rip shingles, vents, and flashing off of roofs. Insurance companies won't give better than a $1K deductable here because of all the wind damage claims. If you are in an area like mine, a outdoor antenna is not a good, long-term option.


2. A properly grounded antenna is less attractive to lighting than an ungrounded antenna. As my university physics professor told the class eons ago, they don't know exactly why, but lightning favors any object that breaks an even plane. Thus, if your antenna rises more than a foot or two above a relatively flat roof, you'd better have some tall trees next to the house or your antenna is target number one. My state is in the top five for ground lightning strikes and I think is tops in fatality rate due to lightning.


3. I'm 58, well almost 59, and I don't have much problem negotiating the small hatch into my attic or walking across the trusses. But, I'm not as frisky about climbing over 20 feet into the air and moving around on a slanted roof. I do it, but my wife is much less distressed when I'm in the attic than when I'm on the roof. I've been in the facility safety business in an extremely hazardous work environment (chemical, radiological, nuclear) and I can tell you that, besides back strain, the most common lost time accidents are from falls off ladders.


4. Half an hours at most versus at least a day when including grounding, etc.


5. Weather deterioration in Colorado is a given, with UV, wind, snow loads.


6. Guys on the Denver OTA forum with outdoor antennas are always going out to confirm their antenna adjustments after every wind storm or major snow fall. Now if I lived in Hawaii...


7. My HOA is puny, but my neighbors evaluate everything everyone does in deciding if they are going to talk to one another. Right now, they don't like it that my wife has established a bird-friendly area in our yard (food, water, shelter, trees).


8. My wife is perfectly happy watching whatever E* provides. She is pleased when I point out the stellar look of "American Idol" in HD, but she wouldn't miss it that much. I had to take regular TNT off the Favorites list to get her to use the TNT-HD simulcast. She hates outdoor antennas. Something to do with being poor during her youth.


9. Actually, for me, an outdoor coax run would be shorter and would be a lot less work than what it took for me to string coax through the walls from the attic to the basement and up the the first floor family room. This isn't really an issue.


So, I say, unless you absolutely know something won't work, try the cheapest and easiest possible solution first. Rule of thumb for engineers, mechanical at least, not medical doctors. From my attic I get 7 of 8 locals available to me at ranges from 10 to 37 miles. The seventh, at 10 miles, is a real bugger that few in my area get indoors or out. OTOH, if I turn my attic antenna around, I can lock a low power DTV station 100 miles away. It all just depends on your situation.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CEB II* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1. You were lucky your antenna survived that wind.
> 
> 
> 2. A properly grounded antenna is less attractive to lighting than an ungrounded antenna. As my university physics professor told the class eons ago, they don't know exactly why, but lightning favors any object that breaks an even plane.
> 
> 
> 6. Guys on the Denver OTA forum with outdoor antennas are always going out to confirm their antenna adjustments after every wind storm or major snow fall.
> 
> 
> 8. She hates outdoor antennas. Something to do with being poor during her youth.
> 
> 
> So, I say, unless you absolutely know something won't work, try the cheapest and easiest possible solution first.



1. Lucky? Not really. We get winds around here all the time, and some of them can get downright circular in nature. And while I've heard of many antennas breaking down over time, my Winegard was pretty sturdy.


2. Actually, from what we know of lightning strikes, it has to do with an electrical potential difference between the cloud and the ground. By properly grounding the antenna, it has the same electrical potential as the ground itself, and thus is no more attractive to lightning than the ground. However, houses, trees and other objects are not grounded, and are thus more attractive to lightning. Not to say you can't get a lightning strike on an antenna, just that it's far less likely than people make it out to be. (Note: This doesn't apply to transmitting antennas, which have a lot of electrical juices flowing through them normally.)


6. Most people with outdoor antennas have rotors. I strongly recommend them to anyone, even if you think you won't get anything from another area. That way, you don't have to "confirm" your aim after a wind storm.


8. I understand about the being poor thing, sort of. Cable isn't that old, though, so she might be hypersensitive about this. And today, an antenna on your roof should be the new status symbol - it shows you probably have HDTV. 


Hey, I'm all for trying things out. But I also think that you should try things that have a reasonable chance of success. In the case of this guy 67 miles from Houston, going against the directional bias of the transmitters, he's going to have to have some luck just to get a signal, if he does everything "right." Cutting his signal down to 1/16th its outside strength dramatically lowers his odds of success. Worse, antenna reception varies with things like the weather and he may try his attic antenna, have it work the day he tests it, and he does a permanent install, goes downstairs and enjoys his reception until the next day, when the wind shifts or the humidity drops or whatever, and suddenly he has nothing. Of course, there's no law that says you can't or shouldn't experiment. And sometimes, people get lucky. But people who ask for advice on forums like this usually aren't looking for the one-in-a-million shot; they're looking for advice on what gives them the best odds for success.


The general rules still apply, even though some exceptions exist for particular people in particular circumstances. Outside is better than inside. Higher is better than lower. Higher gain will receive more distant signals than lower gain. A larger antenna beats a smaller one of similar design. Properly aiming the antenna is better than just pointing it wherever you want. Amplification can help with weak signals, but is murder on multipath.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill Johnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Would there be any good effect on attic, or external roof for that matter, signal reception by the bare metal ridge vent running the length of my house nearly perpendicular to the incoming signals? And would the chimney with all its metal configurations extending only several feet from my attic antenna also serve as some type of big signal collector to enhance my long distance reception?



The metal ridge vent can only act as a reflector as it is longer than one wavelength. It may reflect some signal back, but not any better than a normal reflector screen, such as the one on your antenna. The chimney metal is unlikely to improve your reception, unless it has precisely cut and arranged sections similar to those in a yagi antenna. It is possible that some signal is bouncing off the chimney towards your antenna, and that may increase gain slightly, but it is rather improbable.


Knife-edge diffraction is a very stable phenomena. There's no reason to think it isn't the cause of your reception. Your mountains may also be protecting you from co-channel interference, a big-time problem for long-distance reception for large parts of the country.


----------



## holl_ands

Two more cents:

If you read the NIST study of attenuation for common building materials, you'll find that

the attenuation went up considerably after spraying the pristine panels with water.


Wood shingle roofs will absorb a lot more water than the test panels, so expect to see

additional signal loss when it rains.

And after a snow storm when you are stuck indoors and want to watch DTV.....


Thankfully here in Southern California, neither of these is much of a problem!!!!


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This is supposed to be a board where people can count on sound advice. For the umpteenth time, your reception is very atypical or even an aberration. You have no basis for making these recommendations.



This is a pretty rigid rule cp is setting forth, but ideally it has merit. The only thing is with all the unknowns about OTA reception, how can anyone resolutely claim to have "sound advice." And I don't think it would be really good to have a forum rule that no posting unless you're offering "sound advice" that doesn't go against CW.


I try a method that goes against all CW and it's a total success. So I say "here's my wonderful experience and I heartily urge everyone before building a 60 ft. tower to try it. It's not dangerous, pretty cheap, pretty simple to do, doesn't antagonize anyone, and I'm ecstatic with the results." Sounds like "sound advice" to this biased person; and I can sleep well at night, confident I've helped some while not being detrimental at all to the purposes this board serves so well (see below quote by the AVS Forum about the purpose of the Local HDTV Info and Reception Thread.




> Quote:
> This area is for the chat about the local HDTV stations. Also includes talk on antenna type and reception including HD Cable.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill Johnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I try a method that goes against all CW and it's a total success. So I say "here's my wonderful experience and I heartily urge everyone before building a 60 ft. tower to try it.



I agree with you, within reason. The problem I have with the way you usually present it is that you say something like, "Here's what I did, and I think it will work for a lot of people, and these other guys don't know what they're talking about."


When I called the professionals, they told me I needed a tower. I didn't listen and they refused to install the antenna on my roof, saying, "You won't be happy." I also didn't want to shell out the bucks for a tower. So I bought a Radio Shack U120 for $20, a mast for $10, a few cables for $20, put it up on my roof and got almost nothing. A few months later, I resigned myself to analog and bought a Winegard HD7084P and a 28db preamp for about $250. I got a little more, but after 18 months of that, I'd had enough and put up the tower. Only when I followed the advice of the pros did I get the results I wanted, within reason. I still don't get everything I want, but at least now I can rest happy that I've done everything I could. Still, I wasted $400 (counting other antennas that didn't work out) and 18 months with bad reception because I didn't want to spend $1000.


I would advise anyone who is thinking about a major expense like a tower to be sure that's what they need. Get a good antenna. Walk around on your roof with it looking for hot spots. Try the attic if you want. You might get lucky and save hundreds of dollars. But don't think you can always beat the pros - there's a reason why they're professionals. And if a station engineer talks, LISTEN. Only when you know the odds are against you should you try an attic install - but be prepared to go outside if it doesn't pan out. If you start with flase hopes that the attic is going to work and it doesn't, what then?


----------



## the_bear89451




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 2. Actually, from what we know of lightning strikes, it has to do with an electrical potential difference between the cloud and the ground. By properly grounding the antenna, it has the same electrical potential as the ground itself, and thus is no more attractive to lightning than the ground. However, houses, trees and other objects are not grounded, and are thus more attractive to lightning. Not to say you can't get a lightning strike on an antenna, just that it's far less likely than people make it out to be. (Note: This doesn't apply to transmitting antennas, which have a lot of electrical juices flowing through them normally.)



I disagree. Lightning takes the path of least resistance. It is possible for a high water content tree to be next to a rooftop antenna not connected to anything (electrically floating antenna). The tree will be more attractive to lightning, because the water in the tree is conductive, unlike the dry wood used in home construction. The problem arises once you connect the antenna to a receiver and reduce the antenna's resistance to ground. The a grounding line does not reduce an antennas chance of getting hit by lightning (does not raise the resistance), but rather makes the strike safer. The grounding line provides a path for the current to travel more attractive than through your home.


----------



## milehighmike

CEB II,


On July 11, you started a new thread to the HDTV Hardware forum regarding your ability to lock KMGH, the one channel you can't get indoors, by temporarily mounting an antenna outside on your chimney. In that thread, it was quite clear, at least to me (since I posted to it), that the sole reason for not mounting an outside antenna was spousal disapproval. You never once mentioned the various reasons you have posted on this thread that you perceive as negatives to outdoor antennas. I'm not saying some of your points are not valid (other than I have a $500 deductible on my house insurance - Liberty Mutual) but it makes me wonder why you didn't mention any of these negatives on the thread you started. And since you didn't, you received feedback from others regarding sending your spouse to a spa in return for the outside mount, etc. So my question is do you really feel very strongly against outside antenna mounts or is it really a spousal issue? I'd also be interested in the low power channel you receive (apparently from the north) from 100 miles away. The only DT station I'm aware of north of us is KGWN. It's barely 100 miles away from me and I live 25 miles south of you, I do receive it, and it's hardly low power at 95.5 ERP even though it's still on an STA.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill Johnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Definitely the words of a 60 ft tower man! But here again are some attic advantages that I'm happy about (and in no particular order):
> 
> 
> 1. No wind
> 
> 2. No lightning
> 
> 3. No falling to the ground and breaking one's neck or leg
> 
> 4. "Ease of installation"
> 
> 5. No deterioration due to weather
> 
> 6. Adjustments made in any weather
> 
> 7. No HOA or neighbor problems
> 
> 8. No wife problems
> 
> 9. Shorter cable run



I'd take issue with both 3 and 4. I've personally seen people who've fallen through the rafters in their attic (don't worry, I'll admit to seeing falls from roofs as well). It's typically poorly lighted, cramped, hot, potential for wasps, etc, i.e. no picnic. Many have never even seen the inside of their own attic. I'll take a good ladder, firm footing on a dry roof, and a cool breeze any day. Of course, I *do* have a particular disdain for insects that fly and sting as well.


By the way I can add another one to your list for the *vast* majority of people at greater than 40-50 miles out:


10. No signal


----------



## varian

Hi,

Does anybody in a apartment in Willimantic Connecticut have a indoor Antenna that can pick up all the HD Channels in Connecticut,Boston and Providence? If so what kind of indoor Antenna do you use? This is what antennaweb said the map is below.


DTV Antenna

Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live

Date Compass

Orientation Miles

From Frequency

Assignment

violet - uhf WVIT 30 NBC NEW BRITAIN CT 284° 31.8 30

violet - uhf WWLP 22 NBC SPRINGFIELD MA 331° 36.2 22

violet - vhf WPRI 12 CBS PROVIDENCE RI 90° 49.5 12

violet - uhf WPXQ 69 PAX PROVIDENCE RI 137° 26.7 69

violet - vhf WLNE 6 ABC NEW BEDFORD MA 112° 53.6 6

violet - uhf WTIC 61 FOX HARTFORD CT 284° 31.8 61

violet - uhf WHPX 26 PAX NEW LONDON CT 192° 19.9 26

violet - uhf WGGB 40 ABC SPRINGFIELD MA 344° 43.2 40

violet - uhf WUVN 18 UNI HARTFORD CT 294° 30.5 18

violet - uhf WEDH 24 PBS HARTFORD CT 293° 30.7 24

violet - uhf WEDN 53 PBS NORWICH CT 183° 13.0 53

violet - vhf WJAR 10 NBC PROVIDENCE RI 91° 49.1 10

violet - vhf WFSB 3 CBS HARTFORD CT 294° 30.8


----------



## CEB II




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *milehighmike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> CEB II,
> 
> On July 11, you started a new thread to the HDTV Hardware forum regarding your ability to lock KMGH, the one channel you can't get indoors, by temporarily mounting an antenna outside on your chimney. In that thread, it was quite clear, at least to me (since I posted to it), that the sole reason for not mounting an outside antenna was spousal disapproval.



That is correct, that is my personal situation.



> Quote:
> You never once mentioned the various reasons you have posted on this thread that you perceive as negatives to outdoor antennas. I'm not saying some of your points are not valid (other than I have a $500 deductible on my house insurance - Liberty Mutual) but it makes me wonder why you didn't mention any of these negatives on the thread you started.



Just because I preceive them as negatives doesn't mean that I'm not willing to risk them to get what I want, if it is the only option. That is why, I've been toiling in the attic for a year and a half to see if I can achieve my objectives. Working from the attic I've managed to lock all of the channels everyone else north of I-70 gets and get good analog reception for the various NTSC tuners available in my hardware. I've been frustrated by not getting one channel that is generally regarded as not available in my area. Before investing any more time and money in trying, I went outside to see if that channel could be locked under the most optimal conditions. I found out it could. I'm not sure I can ever lock it from in the attic, but because the wife says no to the roof antenna, I'm going to try.


I offered the defense of Bill Johnson's points because he is correct. If I can get channel 17 from the attic, I'll never think about an outside antenna again because the issues Bill raised are correct.


I live in Arvada. After a particularly nasty storm in the mid-'90s, where over half of my sub-division got a new roof from their insurance company, the minimum deductibles were raised. I'm w/ USAA and have been since 1967. If one of the top rated insurers won't give their long-term customers under a $1K deductible, I don't think many others will for my area. I just paid $1K out of my pocket this spring to replace 50 feet of cedar fence knocked down during the late December wind storm.



> Quote:
> So my question is do you really feel very strongly against outside antenna mounts or is it really a spousal issue?



I'd prefer to not have to deal with an outside antenna, but I will if that is what it takes to get what I want. However, the wife doesn't value channel 17 HDTV as highly as I do (maybe not at all) and says no way.



> Quote:
> I'd also be interested in the low power channel you receive (apparently from the north) from 100 miles away. The only DT station I'm aware of north of us is KGWN. It's barely 100 miles away from me and I live 25 miles south of you, I do receive it, and it's hardly low power at 95.5 ERP even though it's still on an STA.



Okay, so it is only 88.59 miles away according to w.2150.com, and yes it is channel 30 KGWN. I get a steady 49, no lock, on it through the back screen pickup of a Yagi corner reflector pointed SW. During one of my experiments last year, I mounted a Winegard PR-9018 w/ pre-amp in my attic facing north. Couldn't get much else that way, but locked channel 30. Don't care about channel 30 and combining the signal caused a lot of new problems, so I took it down.


95.5 ERP may not be low power compared to our puny downtown broadcasters, but it is far less than our, not at full power, local channels 32 (223 kw) and 34 (450 kw), and no where near the full power license for KGWN at 630 kw. So, I don't think my previous post was deceptive or highly inaccurate as you seem to be implying.


----------



## bobchase

MGT & I are going to hook up in a week or so after some replacement test equipment arrives. (I busted my minimum loss pads up in Phili a couple of weeks back.) If he is as much a a gentlemen, as I think he is, I'll get a chance to fly the 3671, 4228, 91x, and the 7120. It's summer in Houston, I don't think I'll have to the energy to get the rest of the fleet up the mast.


By the way, sane Texans don't go into the attic until 'winter' anyway. (We only have two seasons - damn hot & damn cold.) So even if he has an attic, we won't be trying it out. This winter I have a few more attics scheduled for testing. As always, I will share the data no matter which way the dB crumbles.


Bob Chase


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bill Johnson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> At 8.7 kW and 70 miles, is there any antenna that would?
> 
> 
> .



I have a PBS that has an official STA of 5kw (the station told me via email they're actually only about 1kw) that I can get fairly consistently at 65 miles. My antenna can take a little credit I suppose but the most important factor is that the transmitter is up around 4000ft ASL. Power can help but transmitter height and line of sight is probably more important.


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> By the way I can add another one to your list for the *vast* majority of people at greater than 40-50 miles out:
> 
> 
> 10. No signal



Now this is the way it should be! Even in strongly arguing some point, cp brings humor into the mix and makes us all laugh! After all, this is only television we're talking about and when it comes to our faith, family, friends, and failings (or successes) in life, TV doesn't amount to a hill of beans.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The problem I have with the way you usually present it is that you say something like, "Here's what I did, and I think it will work for a lot of people, and these other guys don't know what they're talking about."



Putting down forum members is certainly not my intention and, going over past posts, I think I've at least tried not to. However, there may be kind of a dogmatic way in my posting language and I feel bad they're perceived as putting anyone down.


Unfortunately, perception is reality and I guarantee HENCEFORTH no one will be able to fairly level a putting down forum members charge against me.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CEB II* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just have to wade in on this one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, I say, unless you absolutely know something won't work, try the cheapest and easiest possible solution first. Rule of thumb for engineers, mechanical at least, not medical doctors. From my attic I get 7 of 8 locals available to me at ranges from 10 to 37 miles. The seventh, at 10 miles, is a real bugger that few in my area get indoors or out. OTOH, if I turn my attic antenna around, I can lock a low power DTV station 100 miles away. It all just depends on your situation.



Mrtbig is 67 miles out. That's what we're talking about here. No one is saying don't try the attic if you're relatively close in (as you are). For Mrtbig it's a waste of time and effort and telling him to "just try it, it works for me" is just bad advice plain and simple.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *the_bear89451* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It is possible for a high water content tree to be next to a rooftop antenna not connected to anything (electrically floating antenna). The tree will be more attractive to lightning, because the water in the tree is conductive, unlike the dry wood used in home construction. The problem arises once you connect the antenna to a receiver and reduce the antenna's resistance to ground. The a grounding line does not reduce an antennas chance of getting hit by lightning (does not raise the resistance), but rather makes the strike safer. The grounding line provides a path for the current to travel more attractive than through your home.



This has been dealt with ad nauseum in other forums. Antennas are not a single metal component, but two - the active element and the directors/reflectors. Most people ground the coax and ignore mast/inactive elements. As wind passes by metal objects, static electricity forms on the metal. Enough of that charge, and suddenly, you're attracting lightning! That's the principle behind lightning rods, which have pretty much been discredited as not helping with lightning strikes.


Anyone who has had a lightning strike even *near* their home will tell you that grounding to protect the equipment in your home in the event of a strike is a useless gesture - everything electrical in your home will be fried, grounded or not.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a PBS that has an official STA of 5kw (the station told me via email they're actually only about 1kw) that I can get fairly consistently at 65 miles. My antenna can take a little credit I suppose but the most important factor is that the transmitter is up around 4000ft ASL. Power can help but transmitter height and line of sight is probably more important.



Perhaps missed in all this is that the 8.7kw ERP station is hi-VHF, which is dramatically more effective than 8.7kw ERP in UHF.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Perhaps missed in all this is that the 8.7kw ERP station is hi-VHF, which is dramatically more effective than 8.7kw ERP in UHF.



Yep. Missed that entirely.


Mine is channel 41 BTW. I have another PBS at 65 miles (ch. 17, 100kw) but I'm blocked by Jellico MTN to the south and I've yet to get stable reception even with the Band A's.


Of course, the fact that I can tune the Soap Channnel (cable 68, roughly the same freq as uhf 17) when my antenna is pointing toward the cable amp on the utility pole on my street may have something to do with that as well.


----------



## kenglish

Outdoor/Rooftop is best.


----------



## Ratman

There is no 'equivalent' to the SvS for VHF. Plain old 'rabbit ears' work for VHF.


OTOH... refer to the post above.


----------



## CEB II




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Mrtbig is 67 miles out. That's what we're talking about here. No one is saying don't try the attic if you're relatively close in (as you are). For Mrtbig it's a waste of time and effort and telling him to "just try it, it works for me" is just bad advice plain and simple.



The world would be more backward place and with far fewer rags to riches stories if everyone who was told someone wouldn't work that actually hadn't be tried, simply threw in the towel.


I agree with the earlier post that there are some basic principles for antennas that generally will improve the probability of success (e.g., higher rather than lower, outdoors rather than indoors, more metal in the air versus less, narrow beamwidth versus wide, etc.). But, until someone has actually put a large, pre-amp'd antenna in Mrtbig's attic and found out what is receivable and what isn't, no one can say he won't receive a given channel in his area.


Yes, his probability of doing so is raised by going outside. But, maybe for the multitude of reasons cited, he doesn't really want his antenna outside. Why tell him it won't work when you don't know if it will. BTW the 37 mile distance channel I get is only 7 kw, in the upper half of the UHF band (46), with no LOS, and with only a medium size, wide beamwidth antenna. It happens!


Finally, the only reason I posted was my irritation at the all-out, personal assault on Bill Johnson for making what I believe to be reasonable suggestions. As a result the pack came after me with the equal vigor. There obviously isn't any room in this thread for anything but dogma, so this will be my last post in this thread. I'm sure that will make some very happy.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CEB II* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But, until someone has actually put a large, pre-amp'd antenna in Mrtbig's attic and found out what is receivable and what isn't, no one can say he won't receive a given channel in his area.
> 
> 
> Why tell him it won't work when you don't know if it will.
> 
> 
> Finally, the only reason I posted was my irritation at the all-out, personal assault on Bill Johnson for making what I believe to be reasonable suggestions. As a result the pack came after me with the equal vigor. There obviously isn't any room in this thread for anything but dogma, so this will be my last post in this thread. I'm sure that will make some very happy.



You are absolutely right that no one can tell him for sure what he will or won't get. But we can say what the odds are, and frankly, they're not good for a multitude of reasons. Having a station engineer in his market rate his chances of success as low with an outdoor antenna makes it even more likely that an attic antenna is not a good idea for him. The problem I've had since the beginning is those who present the odds as better than they are for attic antennas, or those who think that it's worth trying every half-baked idea before doing what common sense, conventional wisdom, sound physics, and expert advice all agree is the thing to do.


I can't find anything that was an all-out assault on you in the thread. I never intended to attack you personally, or treat your advice as worthless. I, for one, will miss your input if you choose to leave this thread, even if I don't always agree with it. From a multitude of counselors, wisdom comes.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CEB II* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The world would be more backward place and with far fewer rags to riches stories if everyone who was told someone wouldn't work that actually hadn't be tried, simply threw in the towel.
> 
> 
> I agree with the earlier post that there are some basic principles for antennas that generally will improve the probability of success (e.g., higher rather than lower, outdoors rather than indoors, more metal in the air versus less, narrow beamwidth versus wide, etc.). But, until someone has actually put a large, pre-amp'd antenna in Mrtbig's attic and found out what is receivable and what isn't, no one can say he won't receive a given channel in his area.
> 
> 
> Yes, his probability of doing so is raised by going outside. But, maybe for the multitude of reasons cited, he doesn't really want his antenna outside. Why tell him it won't work when you don't know if it will. BTW the 37 mile distance channel I get is only 7 kw, in the upper half of the UHF band (46), with no LOS, and with only a medium size, wide beamwidth antenna. It happens!
> 
> 
> Finally, the only reason I posted was my irritation at the all-out, personal assault on Bill Johnson for making what I believe to be reasonable suggestions. As a result the pack came after me with the equal vigor. There obviously isn't any room in this thread for anything but dogma, so this will be my last post in this thread. I'm sure that will make some very happy.



I think there are probably two mindsets at work here. There's the person who wants advice on how to get something done with the least fuss possible and then there's the person who obviously needs it to work but also enjoys the quest and the hobbyist side of it. Most who ask for advice for the first time are of the former group and many who give the advice (like maybe you and me) are of the latter.


Conventional wisdom has to be the most beneficial advice for the former although certainly speculative experimentation must be allowed it's place(and is even part of the fun for many in the latter group).


----------



## the_bear89451




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As wind passes by metal objects, static electricity forms on the metal. Enough of that charge, and suddenly, you're attracting lightning!



In many Yagi antennas, there is no easy way to ground the director elements because the are connected to the boom with an isolator. Are you saying that type of Yagi is especially dangerous? If so, why don't all antenna manufacturers connect the director elements to the boom with a conductor?


----------



## Bill Johnson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CEB II* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Finally, the only reason I posted was my irritation at the all-out, personal assault on Bill Johnson for making what I believe to be reasonable suggestions. As a result the pack came after me with the equal vigor. There obviously isn't any room in this thread for anything but dogma, so this will be my last post in this thread. I'm sure that will make some very happy.



I'm thankful for CEB's show of support (bless you) and with that I too will officially sign out with my last post in this thread.


----------



## betsy c

I have a basic question now that I am interested in using an antenna in my HT. I recently bought a LG 4200A, it seems to be a nice unit. I want to play with antenna placement and I see that people are talking about signal strength. What sort of device measures signal strength? Is it something that sits between the antenna & the tuner's antenna input? Is this something that can be picked up at Radio Shack?


Also, I live in an area between 2 metropolitan areas - can I mount two different antennas to the same mast & have a combiner of some sort to share the same cable coming into the house?


Thanks!

Bets


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *betsy c* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a basic question now that I am interested in using an antenna in my HT. I recently bought a LG 4200A, it seems to be a nice unit. I want to play with antenna placement and I see that people are talking about signal strength. What sort of device measures signal strength? Is it something that sits between the antenna & the tuner's antenna input? Is this something that can be picked up at Radio Shack?
> 
> 
> Also, I live in an area between 2 metropolitan areas - can I mount two different antennas to the same mast & have a combiner of some sort to share the same cable coming into the house?
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Bets



Signal strength is measured through the receiver. Some have a meter that quantifies it to a number while others (like your LG) will just have a meter which indicates "weak, medium, strong" or something to that effect.


It's sounds like your best option will be a rotator for access to both markets. The other option would be to run two separate downleads into an indoor A/B switch.


Combining like you refer to is prone to creating signal killing multipath unless you diplex the two antennas. If one is vhf and the other is uhf that's easy to diplex, but if you're talking multiple channels on both vhf and uhf in both directions it's very difficult/expensive or even impossible.


----------



## intrac




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Signal strength is measured through the receiver. Some have a meter that quantifies it to a number while others (like your LG) will just have a meter which indicates "weak, medium, strong" or something to that effect.
> 
> 
> It's sounds like your best option will be a rotator for access to both markets. The other option would be to run two separate downleads into an indoor A/B switch.
> 
> 
> Combining like you refer to is prone to creating signal killing multipath unless you diplex the two antennas. If one is vhf and the other is uhf that's easy to diplex, but if you're talking multiple channels on both vhf and uhf in both directions it's very difficult/expensive or even impossible.



On my LG Plasma, the signal strength indicator appears really to be a signal quality indicator -- BAD -- NORMAL -- GOOD. When it hits the BAD/NORMAL boundary, it drops to zero. I believe the signal really doesn't drop to zero but drops down to a level where the quality isn't good for decoding. I sort of proved this by adding a Winegard AP-4700 pre-amp which boosted the levels a few percentage points and reduced the signal quality dropping to zero on some channels. This pre-amp is excellent for overload protection, since my external CM4228 picks up both locals (in the order of 10-12 miles) and and distant channels (60 to 90 miles).


----------



## holl_ands

Although there may be at least one HDTV/STB that actually provides a signal strength display,

for the most part what is displayed is NOT signal strength, but a percentage measurement based on the detected MPEG2 data error rate.


Hence you could have a very strong signal with lots of multipath that has a very low % display and vice versa.


----------



## sebenste

Hey gang,


I'm 60 miles west of Chicago, and one thing I have noticed is that I saw the

dreaded drop of signal from my attic antenna in early May from the leaves

growing on all of the trees. Some roughly 100' north of where my townhouse is.


Having said that...since then the reception has slowly gotten better...to the point

where it used to be in winter! Now, the drop in reception was about 10%, or

more accurately, the MPEG2 error rate on my Zenith DVR420 went up by that

amount. Since then, gradually, over the last two months, it has come back to my

winter signal levels, pretty much.


I put forth the theory that while leaves do absorb rf...I would argue that it may be

more of a function of the *water/sap content* in the leaves that does it.

Today, we had wind speeds here over 20 MPH. In May, the signal levels would

be going up and down, as one would expect from trees being nearby. Now,

that effect is barely noticeable...and it WAS unexpectedly breezy here, with

100 degree temps and southwest winds with gusts to 30 MPH!


Based on these observations, I want to throw this out to the engineers on the

list, and the advanced members who have either seen it or know about it.


What do you think?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I put forth the theory that while leaves do absorb rf...I would argue that it may be more of a function of the *water/sap content* in the leaves that does it.
> 
> 
> Based on these observations, I want to throw this out to the engineers on the
> 
> list, and the advanced members who have either seen it or know about it.



Water content in the leaves definitely makes a difference. And if your weather has been anything like it has been here in Minnesota lately, your leaves would be very dry.


----------



## bob md

For background, I live pretty close to the major towers, about 5 miles. We are surrounded by many trees, however there are no major structural obstacles between us and the towers. Originally, we had rabbit ears for our TV, reception was alright, but some stations were a bit snowy. After reading some comments here, we bought a Silver Sensor & that made a bit of difference. The SS was mounted on top of our TV.


Over the last year, I've been building a HT in our basement, it became functional a month ago. The room has a projector, since I wanted to receive HD OTA, I bought a LG 4200A tuner. I also wired the house so I could take an antenna signal and distribute it anywhere in the house. I then tried the following (over a month):


1. I put the SS in the basement - the 4200 only picked up a few stations, and those poorly.


2. I then moved the SS to the attic and positioned it (based on the antennaweb orientation information). The reception improved significantly, although things were far from perfect. I'd get drop-outs on occasion & sometimes a channel couldn't be tuned.


3. I purchased a 4-bay antenna (antennasdirect.com DB4) and mounted that in the attic. I played some with placement, but probably could have spent more time (however it is an oven up there). Anyhow, my reception improved somewhat, although dropouts were still present. Doing an auto scan with the 4200 produced 20 stations.


4. We have an old antenna on our house, I had tried it earlier without good results. I went up on the roof recently and found the problem was the cable was poorly connected. I replaced some cabling (using the old, directional antenna) and hooked it into my system. The results were on par with the 4 bay, 20 stations & a few drop outs.


5. Lastly, I took my 4 bay from the attic and attached it to my existing antenna mast. It was a simple process, it sits slightly below the existing antenna. Here things improved pretty significantly. When I scan now, I pick up 6 new stations and so far the majors are better, no drop outs. Having the additional stations aren't the big deal, I'm just assuming that all signals are stronger - at least that's what I'm experiencing.


I haven't done anything else to the signal, it isn't amplified, etc. So in my experience, in my situation, outside placement made a big difference. When I say big, maybe less that a 20% improvement, but when it comes to a digital signal, it made big difference in my case.


Of course, YMMV - if I were to move, I'd try the same thing over again as I know of people to are satisfied with their attic install.


Bob


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bob md* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Of course, YMMV - if I were to move, I'd try the same thing over again as I know of people to are satisfied with their attic install.



Basically, you're confirming what we've been saying - an outdoor install gives you the best chance for success. Not that it can't work indoors or in an attic, just that it is less likely. You're only 5 miles from your targets, so your problem was probably attic-induced multipath. An amplifier is practically guaranteed to ruin what good reception you get - inddors or out.


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey gang,
> 
> 
> I'm 60 miles west of Chicago, and one thing I have noticed is that I saw the
> 
> dreaded drop of signal from my attic antenna in early May from the leaves
> 
> growing on all of the trees. Some roughly 100' north of where my townhouse is.
> 
> 
> Having said that...since then the reception has slowly gotten better...to the point
> 
> where it used to be in winter! Now, the drop in reception was about 10%, or
> 
> more accurately, the MPEG2 error rate on my Zenith DVR420 went up by that
> 
> amount. Since then, gradually, over the last two months, it has come back to my
> 
> winter signal levels, pretty much.
> 
> 
> I put forth the theory that while leaves do absorb rf...I would argue that it may be
> 
> more of a function of the *water/sap content* in the leaves that does it.
> 
> Today, we had wind speeds here over 20 MPH. In May, the signal levels would
> 
> be going up and down, as one would expect from trees being nearby. Now,
> 
> that effect is barely noticeable...and it WAS unexpectedly breezy here, with
> 
> 100 degree temps and southwest winds with gusts to 30 MPH!
> 
> 
> Based on these observations, I want to throw this out to the engineers on the
> 
> list, and the advanced members who have either seen it or know about it.
> 
> 
> What do you think?



You are on the right track with your thinking but you need to factor in something else. Yes, foliage does attenuate the signal somewhat, with long needle conifers (pine , fir, etc.) being particularly harmful to UHF reception. (Doug Lung, of TV Technology fame, often kids me about the -30 dB pine trees up in the northeast Houston area.) I don't think that we would see gross variations of signal strength due to the winds blowing and causing all of the leaves to line up one moment and pass the signal, then block the signal the next.


The factor most people don't consider with TV reception is the moisture content of the air. They will think of raining vs. not raining but most people ignore the importance of humidity. Relative humidity (RH) will change as the temperature changes even when the moisture content stays the same. So Meteorologists, and engineers who study propagation, often use Dew Point (DP) as a determinate of moisture content of the air. (DP is directly proportional to vapor pressure (VP) and is much much easier to get data on and to work with.)


If we measured your dew point temperature in the winter, it would be very low compared to the air temperature. Your trees were also bare.


If we measured your dew point in the summer, the air temperature and the dew point would be very close, perhaps only a few degrees apart. In the mornings, a car left outside often has dew on the windows because the air temperature went below the dew point and condensed on the cool glass & metal. The air in the summer is often still with no breeze until late afternoon, if then.


In the spring, the north winds often fight the south winds causing large variation in the water content of the air. The north wind brings in dry air; the south wind brings moist air. There is mixing of the two winds right over your house and all the way over the to the transmitter. Pockets of air develop with high moisture content, perhaps moving through the viewing area. Meanwhile, you see the spring breezes blow the branches around.


So how does moisture content affect radio propagation? Radio waves only travel in a straight line when they are in a vacuum. Our air (the lower atmosphere) causes the radio wave to slow down and to bend by refraction. While there are many factors that cause the bending, moisture content is the biggest factor, swamping out all the other factors combined.


We refer to this as the K-factor in our calculations. K-factor is the radius of the earth for the the TV signal as opposed to the actual radius of the earth. The greater the K-factor, the 'flatter' the earth becomes allowing reception at greater and greater distances. (Bending a wave around the earth has the same affect as flattening out the earth.)


The increased K-factor allows over the horizon reception of TV signals by folks who live further than the FCC stations service area, as you often see posted here on the forum. It also causes the signal strength of a station to increase or decrease for folks who live within the stations service area. I think you may be seeing moisture moving through the viewing area.


Bob Chase

KHWB-TV


----------



## bob md

Thanks for the explanation, Bob - we newbies are always looking for such info.


----------



## Neil L

Yes, thanks Bob. Finally an educated explanation for the observations I have made the last three years, from about 70 miles from the Memphis towers. Over the years some of the self proclaimed "experts" on this forum have called me crazy for believing that I would get better reception during the summer than in winter, even citing water content in the atmosphere as a reason summer reception should be worse. But your clear explanation of the effects of dew point on reception coincides exactly with what I have observed.


----------



## Alan Curry

I'm sorry if these question has been asked but I didn't find any information searching this thread. Now the question....


What would be the general affect on signal reception when there is a water tower directly inline with the transmission towers? The water tower is approximately 1/4 mile away and the transmission towers are 14-15 miles from my home.


The tower looks like this one: http://www.ci.wixom.mi.us/YourCommun...watertower.jpg 


Thanks,


Alan


[edited to add photo link]


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Alan Curry* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm sorry if these question has been asked but I didn't find any information searching this thread. Now the question....
> 
> 
> What would be the general affect on signal reception when there is a water tower directly inline with the transmission towers? The water tower is approximately 1/4 mile away and the transmission towers are 14-15 miles from my home.
> 
> 
> The tower looks like this one: http://www.ci.wixom.mi.us/YourCommun...watertower.jpg
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
> [edited to add photo link]



If it blocks line of sight the result could be multipath. If you're analogs are from the same towers and are ghost free you're likely o.k.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil Laffoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes, thanks Bob. Finally an educated explanation for the observations I have made the last three years, from about 70 miles from the Memphis towers. Over the years some of the self proclaimed "experts" on this forum have called me crazy for believing that I would get better reception during the summer than in winter, even citing water content in the atmosphere as a reason summer reception should be worse. But your clear explanation of the effects of dew point on reception coincides exactly with what I have observed.




The problem with summer are that things are so much more unpredictable (at least for me). This is likely due to intermittent tropospheric ducting and interference from other markets (analogs mostly). I'm hoping this will clear up after analog goes away.


----------



## Alan Curry




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If it blocks line of sight the result could be multipath. If you're analogs are from the same towers and are ghost free you're likely o.k.



Thanks for the reply. The analogs are from the same towers and they are not ghost free. The antenna that I am playing with is a Zenith Silver Sensor. I am assuming a directional antenna may be better for me.


Alan


----------



## SnellKrell

Your Silver Sensor is highly directional - but it's basically an indoor antenna, although some have used it with success outdoors.


What you may need is a directional outdoor antenna - and more than likely, since you have ghosting on your analog channels, orient the antenna for strong reflected signals.


Gary


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Alan Curry* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply. The analogs are from the same towers and they are not ghost free. The antenna that I am playing with is a Zenith Silver Sensor. I am assuming a directional antenna may be better for me.
> 
> 
> Alan



I'd agree. I'm assuming you've tried moving the silver sensor around. You could also try it in the attic. Another thing to try would be the variable attenuator from RS. This can decrease ghosting/mulitipath and you could use the analogs as a guide. The CM 4221 in your attic/outside might be the next option. Even safer would be the CM 4228 outside/ in the attic. You shouldn't need a preamp and this would typically make multipath worse, anyway.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> While there are many factors that cause the bending, moisture content is the biggest factor, swamping out all the other factors combined.



Really? I'd put tropospheric ducting at the top of the list.


Here in Minnesota, we get extremes of moisture content in the air. Dewpoints in the winter have actually been below zero, and in the summer as high as 86. While generally speaking, reception in the winter is better than in the summer, nothing beats a good tropospheric event to stretch the radio horizon. I've gotten UHF signals from over 250 miles away, clear as a bell, during tropospheric events which usually seem to happen on calm, hot and humid summer evenings more than any other time of year. But kick up a little breeze and the signals, even from relatively close stations over the radio horizon, break up like ice in 100 degree heat.


----------



## the_bear89451




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If it blocks line of sight the result could be multipath. If you're analogs are from the same towers and are ghost free you're likely o.k.



The ghosts in this case will be too close together to see.


Alan,

The fairly large distance from the water tower will be helpful. Even better, if you were a mile from the tower. Think of it like an island in the ocean. The farther you get from the island, the less if effect the ocean waves. As you probably know you will need a bigger antenna than you would if you did not have the water tower.


----------



## Alan Curry

I've been moving the Silver Sensor around including the attic while playing. I've known I have needed a larger one for sometime now. My biggest question is which one to start with; bay style like the CM4228 or a yagi style like the 42XG?


Thanks for all the replys,


Alan


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Alan Curry* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've been moving the Silver Sensor around including the attic while playing. I've known I have needed a larger one for sometime now. My biggest question is which one to start with; bay style like the CM4228 or a yagi style like the 42XG?



Bowtie-styles seem to work better in attics. Yagis work better outdoors.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *the_bear89451* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The ghosts in this case will be too close together to see.



Hmmm. I guess that'd make them true "ghosts" alright.










I understand what you're getting at. If the reflections are arriving very close together the tuner would see them simultaneously. But that'd be a good signal wouldn't it?


Anyhow, Alan did reply that his analogs "were not ghost free".


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Alan Curry* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've been moving the Silver Sensor around including the attic while playing. I've known I have needed a larger one for sometime now. My biggest question is which one to start with; bay style like the CM4228 or a yagi style like the 42XG?
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the replys,
> 
> 
> Alan



The more "fair" comparison would be between the 4228 and the 91xg, and they should both be more directional and perform better for multipath than the 42xg. If you're definitely going to stay in the attic, I'd say toss a coin (or I guess you could put that coin in your pocket since the 4228 is half the price). If you think you might go outside on a rotator at some point, the 91xg is lighter and less wind load.


----------



## the_bear89451




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hmmm. I guess that'd make them true "ghosts" alright.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I understand what you're getting at. If the reflections are arriving very close together the tuner would see them simultaneously. But that'd be a good signal wouldn't it?
> 
> 
> Anyhow, Alan did reply that his analogs "were not ghost free".




If the wave bending around the right side of the water tower hits the antenna at its peak at the same time the wave bending around the left side hits the antenna at its trough, the two will cancel each other out. This is the potential problem with short distance multi-path.


My guess is the ghosts are caused by something other than the water tower. You could calculate out what the time it takes light to travel 20-30 feet translates into in inches on the TV screen. I'm feeling too lazy to do this myself.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *the_bear89451* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If the wave bending around the right side of the water tower hits the antenna at its peak at the same time the wave bending around the left side hits the antenna at its trough, the two will cancel each other out. This is the potential problem with short distance multi-path.
> 
> 
> My guess is the ghosts are caused by something other than the water tower. You could calculate out what the time it takes light to travel 20-30 feet translates into in inches on the TV screen. I'm feeling too lazy to do this myself.



The ghosts are likely caused by reflections through the back or to the sides of the antenna. This is common when line of sight is lost whether due to buildings, mountains, etc. This is why narrower beamwidth and higher front to back ratio is so important in mulitpath prone areas and why omnidirectional antennas don't work. In most cases it's still possible to receive the direct signal at an acceptable level if you can narrow the beamwidth/increase FB ratio enough. Sometimes not, however, and it's necessary to try non-intuitive aiming and try to catch a reflection which is strong enough to tune.


If the water tower is the only obstruction to LOS, then either that's the cause or the receiving antenna is just too omnidirectional to begin with. Either way, the remedy at the antenna is the same=narrower beamwidth, higher FB ratio.


Two signals in perfectly opposite phase nulls the signal. This would not produce multipath but rather attenuation of the direct signal. It's hard to imagine one signal refracting so much differently around a water tower as to alter the relative phase by 180 degrees since the signal is emanating from the same point, but I'll not argue it's possibility. More importantly, the direct signal is simply blocked (reflected elsewhere or absorbed) by the obstruction and so the tuner sees proportionately more reflected signal.


Nulling can be used to advantage if stacking antennas to cancel unwanted interference.

See http://www.kyes.com/antenna/sca/scaint1.html


----------



## the_bear89451




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The ghosts are likely caused by reflections...



I think I see what you are saying the water tower is not the cause of the ghosts, but rather allows ghosts caused by something else (ie. a hill) to be seen. Because the water tower makes the more direct signal much weaker, the difference between the multiple-paths (around water tower vs bounce off hill) is not as great. This makes sense.


The only think I would like to add is if Alan was closer to the water tower, a less directional antenna might be helpful to pickup signal curving around each side simultaneously.


----------



## AntAltMike

I agree completely with "bear". But even then, you would have to be really unlucky to have that tower directly on the line of your transmission path. If it is, it would seem to me that if you bought a 500 foot spool of RG-56 and held a test antenna 500 feet to the left or right of where your antenna is located now, you'd get much improved reception because the RF shadow of the tower is no wider than the tower, and, with the penumbra, it is even narrower than that.


Or it might be easier to do something like that with an A/C inverter and a portable test rig, if you are in an urban situation where you can't string a long coax to a distant reception antenna.


Scrounge up a copy of Satellite, Off-Air SMATV by Dr. Frank Baylin, probably published in the late 1980s (my cover and first few pages are missing, so I can't find the copyright date). On page 93, it has the formulas for determining phase cancellation distances between horizontally stacked antennas. One way that cable companies cancel the effects of interfering signals is by having two horizontally stacked antennas pointed at the main signal path, but spaced so that the reflected signal gets to one antenna exactly 180 degrees out of phase with when it reaches the other and thus, those signal components, which are visuallly equal in magnitude, cancel each other out. Unfortunately, spacing is unique for each channel, so this technique can only reliably clean up one channel with each antenna pair.


On page 195 of my edition is a useful table that lets you use the distance between the main analog image and the ghost to determine how much further the reflected signal is traveling.. Figure 9-1 there has "Ghost Displacement versus Reflection Distance" plots for different size TV screens. For example, if a ghost image is one inch to the right of the main image on a 15" diagonal TV screen, then the multipath signal has traveled about 5000 feet further than the direct one, whereas that one inch of image displacement looks like about 2,700 feet of extra travel distance on a 25" TV.


On the same page is Figure 9-4, which demonstrates that an ellipse is the locus of all points of the same distance differential between the direct path and multipath signals. You can stick pins on a map that has both the transmitting and receiving sites on it and connect them with a thread that is equal in length to the multipath distance and use that thread to guide a pencil in developing your own plot of that ellipse on the map, and then you can find something big on that ellipse and that is what your signals are bouncing off. For all the good it does you.


It did me a lot of good several years ago. I was trying to mitigate really harsh analog ghost images at a campground in College Park, Maryland, and I knew, roughly, the direction that the multipath signals were coming from, because I identified secondary antenna peaking in that direction that exceeded what a sidelobe would develop at that azimuth, but I couldn't tell how far away the reflecting object was because of the treeline. So I knew I had to move my antenna, but I needed a more informed basis to speculate where else on the property to put it. Otherwise. I'd have to walk around the property with light, 25 foot pole with a tiny UHF antenna on it and then try to make sense of my haphazard collection of prospective relocation analyses.


I drew the ellipse, using the thread and pencil, and bingo, it went right through Byrd Stadium at the University of Maryland. Armed with that knowledge, it was much easier to certify the efficacy of the new antenna location than it would have been if I hadn't known how far away the reflection was coming from. I set up two new antennas, about 500 feet closer to the transmitters, and they almost totally eliminated the ghosts. Obviously, I had a little bigger budget to work with than most of you do. The campground serves 400 sites and I did this before DirecTV made local TV available in that market.


Some of you can surely figure out how to generate such an ellipse with a computer. I can't. About forty years ago, I arrived at a fateful, erroneous conclusion that I now regret. I attended a science exposition at which a behemoth called the IBM 360 was the center of attraction. Computer technology was to be the wave of the future, and someday, we'd all be using these things. That's what they told us.


Well, I could do anything that I saw them try to programing it to do in less time than it took them to program it, using the punch cards that they did, and the only thing it could tie me at was tic-tac-toe. It couldn't even play chess.


I concluded that computers were a fad and that, rather than get in on the ground floor, I'd let them pass by, like the hula hop did, and catch the next fad. Fool on me!


----------



## AntAltMike

Those among you willing to go to heroic lengths to maximixe the performance of your reception antenna installation may choose to visit HERE .


----------



## Alan Curry

Well, I didn't expect this much discussion from my original question but I've enjoyed it. To add a little more information to the equation I'm on the backside of a hill. If the cheap mapping software I have for my GPS receiver is close then the elevation of the tower is at 1036 ft. and I'm at 1029 ft. To further muddy the water, if antennaweb.org's distance and bearing are fairly accurrate then the antenna farms elevation would be around 500 ft.


Right now I'm going to get a CM 4228 and try it out.


Thanks again,


Alan


----------



## Alan Curry




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> About forty years ago, I arrived at a fateful, erroneous conclusion that I now regret. I attended a science exposition at which a behemoth called the IBM 360 was the center of attraction. Computer technology was to be the wave of the future, and someday, we'd all be using these things. That's what they told us.
> 
> 
> Well, I could do anything that I saw them try to programing it to do in less time than it took them to program it, using the punch cards that they did, and the only thing it could tie me at was tic-tac-toe. It couldn't even play chess.
> 
> 
> I concluded that computers were a fad and that, rather than get in on the ground floor, I'd let them pass by, like the hula hop did, and catch the next fad. Fool on me!



15 years ago I took a job working with the descendant of the IBM 360. Since then, I'm glad I stayed on the mainframe. If not, I'd probably be of a job right now.


Alan


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Scrounge up a copy of Satellite, Off-Air SMATV by Dr. Frank Baylin, probably published in the late 1980s (my cover and first few pages are missing, so I can't find the copyright date). On page 93, it has the formulas for determining phase cancellation distances between horizontally stacked antennas.



This info is also here: http://www.kyes.com/antenna/sca/scaint1.html 
http://www.kyes.com/antenna/sca/scaint2.html 


I've tried it with some success (not as much as I had hoped) to try to null an analog 34 which interferes with a digital 34 here. The problem as I remember was that the 1/2 wavelength spacing which is supposed to work best decreased the overall performance of the stack.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This info is also here: http://www.kyes.com/antenna/sca/scaint1.html
> http://www.kyes.com/antenna/sca/scaint2.html
> 
> 
> I tr(ied) to null an analog 34 which interferes with a digital 34 here. The problem as I remember was that the 1/2 wavelength spacing which is supposed to work best decreased the overall performance of the stack.



What is the angle between the towers. How far away are each?


You might try pointing an antenna at the source of the offending signal, and coupling it 180 degrees out of phase with the main antenna. It is tough to do but doable. it is often done to get rid of unwanted harmonics of FM signals that develop in the VHF high band.


Microwave Filter makes a phase shifter that you can use to continuously shift the phase up to 180 degrees, so that, coupled with a variable attenuator, would allow you to tweak until the problem is minimized. The retail price of it is about $700. I have a couple, but unfortunately, mine are VHF lowband and highband


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What is the angle between the towers. How far away are each?
> 
> 
> You might try pointing an antenna at the source of the offending signal, and coupling it 180 degrees out of phase with the main antenna. It is tough to do but doable. it is often done to get rid of unwanted harmonics of FM signals that develop in the VHF high band.
> 
> 
> Microwave Filter makes a phase shifter that you can use to continuously shift the phase up to 180 degrees, so that, coupled with a variable attenuator, would allow you to tweak until the problem is minimized. The retail price of it is about $700. I have a couple, but unfortunately, mine are VHF lowband and highband



WBKI analog 34 Campbellsville KY bearing 303.5 at 84 miles

WTNZ DT 34 Knoxville bearing 176.1 at 65 miles

Angle between 127.4

My spacing calculation for nulling assuming ch. 34 centered at 593 mhz:

12.53 inches for .5 wavelength

37.6 inches for 1.5

62.7 for 2.5


I do have a couple of Band A antennas down right now to play with, but all of my uhf antennas have PCB baluns. Would turning one upside down flip the phase? I'd also expect this to have the potential of creating unwanted multipath for other channels unless I used a 34 jointenna or something similar on the out of phase antenna.


I'd say the 700 dollar option is pretty much out.


----------



## greywolf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *the_bear89451* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In many Yagi antennas, there is no easy way to ground the director elements because the are connected to the boom with an isolator.



A gas filled lightning discharge unit instead of a grounding block handles the job. If there is a static buildup to the degree specified on the unit, the gas ionizes and the charge goes to ground.


----------



## the_bear89451




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greywolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A gas filled lightning discharge unit instead of a grounding block handles the job. If there is a static buildup to the degree specified on the unit, the gas ionizes and the charge goes to ground.



I was more expecting someone to respond with,

The TOTAL charge is not very high, because of the small volume.


----------



## RayL Jr.

Thanks to a number of members for the links here mentioned the past few weeks, I'll add & sort these in:

*Antenna basics - excellent source for technical antenna & accessories info* 7/28/05
*On-air DTV test with various length Coax Baluns* 7/28/05
*Entry point to purchase custom made Coax Baluns ($40)* 7/28/05
*Winegard transformers* 7/28/05
*Half-Wave Balun compared to wider bandwidth, low loss, Log Periodic Balun* 7/28/05
*Some basic Ferrite Balun design information* 7/28/05
*Maximixe performance of reception antenna installation* 7/28/05



If I were that concerned for higher UHF frequencies in my area, Europeans seem to like the Televes DAT-75 . I guess to each his/her own area, situation & requirements. I've seen vicious but informative arguments w/the Channel Master 8-bay vs. Winegard & other yagis between what seems to be experienced pros/installers... in other threads/forums. When does one say they've looked @ say Comparing the common antenna types long enough?










AntAltMike's link is interesting on improving reception drawing a big ellipse & finding optimum location. I've designed sealed concrete cast ellipsoid speaker enclosures using Fibonacci cancellation with a lot of help from Cantrell's ellipse formulas in a spreadsheet, mitigating need for 1/2 wave resonance damping material which can also muffle sound. VERY precise & no Calc III needed.


----------



## sebenste

Hey gang,


Just saw this now, but...


Stark Electronics, which has a good reputation among antenna buyers, put the

ChannelMaster 4228 UHF antenna on sale for $39 this week. Just caught it.

If you were thinking of getting one, grab it before the end of the week;


http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm 


The funny thing is, I hate the website (WAY too long of a list), but love their

service. A good compromise. ;-) Full disclaimer: I don't know anyone from

them; they came recommended to me last year and I bought some of my

stuff for my antenna install through them, and they got me the stuff I needed

quickly. (Read; satisfied customer, nothing more!)


Edit: Well, well...price war!!!

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4228.htm 


I am also a satisfied customer with them. I would be even more satisfied

if they dropped the price even lower!


----------



## RayL Jr.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So I knew I had to move my antenna, but I needed a more informed basis to speculate where else on the property to put it. Otherwise. I'd have to walk around the property with light, 25 foot pole with a tiny UHF antenna on it and then try to make sense of my haphazard collection of prospective relocation analyses.



Imagine walking around with a 30' pole trying to find the best location for a wind turbine. Knowing Rayleigh wind distribution helps here, but they usually have to measure (over time) chosen spots @ least about 30 feet.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...I hate the website...




I like it. I don't have time to develop a price schedule, so when I am drawing up a materials list for a big job, I just go to their site and factor some multiple of their prices.


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Really? I'd put tropospheric ducting at the top of the list.
> 
> 
> Here in Minnesota, we get extremes of moisture content in the air. Dewpoints in the winter have actually been below zero, and in the summer as high as 86. While generally speaking, reception in the winter is better than in the summer, nothing beats a good tropospheric event to stretch the radio horizon. I've gotten UHF signals from over 250 miles away, clear as a bell, during tropospheric events which usually seem to happen on calm, hot and humid summer evenings more than any other time of year. But kick up a little breeze and the signals, even from relatively close stations over the radio horizon, break up like ice in 100 degree heat.



srenger,

I was not ignoring tropoducting. The person who I responded to is 60 mi from the xmitter, probably very close to end (or just beyond) the stations Grade B coverage area. From 60ish miles out to 100 miles is an area that I call the 'deep fringe' area. (Mainly because you see that listed on antenna charts and consumers can relate to it.) In the deep fringe, the signal is typically from the station or a reflection of the station from a tall object, like a mountain. While there is no hard rule to tropoducting, it tends to be further out and more sporadic. Your 250 mile example is a classic case. It's very far and sporadic. It would be rare, but not impossible, for a signal to get all the way up to the troposphere and get back down to a receive antenna within a 60 mile radius of the transmitter.


I was explaining a completely different scenario where the signal gets better or worse with the seasons or with weather fronts within the stations normal viewing area. This is true at 30 miles out, especially with an indoor antenna.


Most people don't realize how thin a UHF television beam is. Folks see the receive antenna charts and think that the transmit antenna is similar. The transmit beam is closer in shape to a frisbee than to those charts. If it's a directional antenna, then it's a frisbee the dog chewed on. At 60 miles, a 1/4 of a degree change in beam tilt can make a huge difference in signal strength.


Bob Chase

KHWB-TV


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was explaining a completely different scenario where the signal gets better or worse with the seasons or with weather fronts within the stations normal viewing area. This is true at 30 miles out, especially with an indoor antenna.



Ah, understood. I'm kind of in this situation, with stations just over 75 miles distant and no line-of-sight. Winter is better than summer, but evenings in summer can still kick the pants off the best days in winter. I've been attributing it to tropospheric ducting, but I'm not an engineer and I don't play one on TV.


For instance, WCCO-DT (32) comes in nearly 24x7, 365 days a year for me. I'm shocked if I don't get it. KSTP-DT (50), supposedly on the same tower, at about the same height and power, is an elusive catch year round. The atmosphere has to be "helping" me a lot to get it, day or night, summer or winter. In the winter, on a "good" night, the signal meter will list KSTP-DT in the middle of the "Normal" range. In the summer, on a "good" night with no wind and high humidity, I've seen the signal peg high on the "Good" range on my meter. Now, KSTP's engineers insist that the problem is that KSTP drew a "bad card" with channel 50, and lower channels aren't as fussy about multipath, and they may be right. I find it ironic, though, that KSTC-DT, on channel 44 and about 1/5th the power, comes in far more regularly and reliably not just for me, but for just about everyone in their viewing area. In any event, I'm a good 15 miles from all these station's coverage patterns, so I have no business expecting them to come in, especially with my "below average grade" location.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> At 60 miles, a 1/4 of a degree change in beam tilt can make a huge difference in signal strength.
> 
> 
> Bob Chase
> 
> KHWB-TV



I've played around with tilt +/- 7 degrees or so and I've never been able to convince myself that it makes much of a difference. The problem is that conditions with my reception seem to vary enough constantly any time of the year that something that makes it a little worse or a little better is just really hard to confirm (or maybe there's just no significant difference at my location).


----------



## AntAltMike

I think that a 1/4 degree difference in beam tilt might make a little difference in transmision at that distance, but I can't imagine it ever having any measurable effect on reception.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think that a 1/4 degree difference in beam tilt might make a little difference in transmision at that distance, but I can't imagine it ever having any measurable effect on reception.



It was my understanding that he was referring to transmitter beam tilt, not receiving antenna beam tilt.


----------



## sebenste




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I like it. I don't have time to develop a price schedule, so when I am drawing up a materials list for a big job, I just go to their site and factor some multiple of their prices.



Mike,


Let me clarify. I do like the fact that they give all the prices, and their selection.

I just wish it were more organized, like warrenelectronics.com is. Having to slide down more than 1 page is a general design no-no in the Web world. And again, their products are great and their service to me has been great. It would make life easier to find stuff that I want if they, for example, had different sections for each category: different pages for Winegard antennas and boosters, etc.

I just want to find what I want quickly.


Gilbert


----------



## bobchase

Gentlemen,


Attached is a chart of a typical UHF transmit antenna and a mid-gain log-periodic antenna. (An 8 dB yagi would have a similar pattern.) The Y-Scale is degrees from horizontal. Negative numbers are to our customers, positive numbers go out into space or, occasionally, getting into a tropoduct.







The X-Scale is gain with 1.0 being maximum signal.


You can see why we have to tilt our beam down to 'see' you from 2000'. You can also see why tilting a consumer antenna does not usually do much good.


By the way, this is not the KHWB antenna. I built this chart by transposing data from a report to excel. It wasn't until I saw the null-fill area on the chart that I realized that it was another stations' antenna. Still, their antenna is more typical of a UHF antenna for a VHF-NTSC station than our antenna would be.


Bob Chase

KHWB-TV

 

Xmit-Recv-El-Chart.pdf 12.8974609375k . file


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You can see why we have to tilt our beam down to 'see' you from 2000'. You can also see why tilting a consumer antenna does not usually do much good.



Interesting picture. But it seems to assume a perfect world, and we all know the world isn't perfect. There are things that "scatter" that nice, straight, narrow beam all over the place. Most people who advocate tilters say that tilting only becomes useful when you're over the horizon. It allows you to maximize the gain of the antenna by turning it parallel to the incoming signal - since it is probably "dropping from the sky" rather than coming in nice and straight.


The people who often lose out with reception due to beam angle are those who are "right under" the antenna, say a mile or two away. They often can't get reception with a typical 8db gain antenna (or any of the larger antennas) but they can get rock solid reception from small, indoor antennas like the DB2. I don't know if they're just picking up a reflection, but I've tried to help several people who can't get a blip because they're under the tower's shadow.


----------



## Andy in NYC

Well after following these threads for 80 odd pages, I can say I'm presently confused on a much higher level than I was before I started. Which is a good thing, I guess.


I'm putting in an HD set (finally) and want an OTA antenna to go along with my DirectTV (which I'll up to HD also).


Per www.antennaweb.org , the stations in the general direction I'm aiming are:


yellow PBS TRENTON NJ 295 3.7 43

violet FOX PHILADELPHIA PA 259 35.9 42

green ABC PHILADELPHIA PA 257 36.5 64

green CBS PHILADELPHIA PA 257 36.5 26

ltgrn WB PHILADELPHIA PA 257 36.3 54

red PBS PHILADELPHIA PA 257 36.3 34

red UPN PHILADELPHIA PA 257 36.3 32

blu PAX WILMINGTON DE 257 36.3 31

violet NBC PHILADELPHIA PA 257 36.3 67

violet PBS WILMINGTON DE 257 36.4 55

violet UNI VINELAND NJ 210 38.8 66


I strictly care about all the Philly stations (and not at all about the others)


The one local guy in the Princeton area installs the Winegard 9095 and AP4800 pre-amp; if I want I can buy and he will install anything else.


The antenna will go on the roof of a two story house with a 10' mast.


If I buy the antenna and pre-amp, the installer would be happy to install my choices.


I've been looking at a DB4 or DB8 with a channelmaster 7777 pre-amp.


Can anyone provide me with a pro/con on my choice over the installers?


Cost isn't a consideration ($100 +/- either way doesn't matter here) , I just want rock solid reception without any fuss/muss or rotators.



Thanks in advance.



Andrew


----------



## etcarroll

I can't help with the installer question.


I don't think the preamp is needed unless you're running a really long cable or splitting it to multi-sets. I'm 43 miles from Philly, and when I tried a preamp with the CM4228 I lost WHYY.


----------



## AntAltMike

Is PBS/Trenton up to full power? If not, then when it goes to full powr it might overload a high gain preamp.


Can you get at the amp yourself? If so, then try without the preamp first, but if you think you need one, then you should try a Winegard medium gain preamp (18dB).


Trenton is 30 degrees off your main azimuth, so at UHF frequencies, that should knock it down by a good 20dB. If you had a VHF station that close, then you'd be in trouble.


Philly will have at least two stations going back to VHF highnband, I'm sure. Don't they have a 10 and 12? You'll eventually need to accommodate those somehow, but now is probably not the time to worry about that.


----------



## sebenste




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Andy in NYC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I strictly care about all the Philly stations (and not at all about the others)
> 
> 
> The one local guy in the Princeton area installs the Winegard 9095 and AP4800 pre-amp; if I want I can buy and he will install anything else.
> 
> 
> The antenna will go on the roof of a two story house with a 10' mast.
> 
> 
> If I buy the antenna and pre-amp, the installer would be happy to install my choices.
> 
> 
> I've been looking at a DB4 or DB8 with a channelmaster 7777 pre-amp.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew



Hi Andrew,


I can't help with installers either, but my recommendation to you is simple.

At that range, on a 10' mast, assuming no hills between you and the towers,

you don't need a preamp; in fact, as Mike et al have pointed out, it may

overload your signals. BUT, there is one exception: check to see if your

UPN, PAX and WB stations are at full power. The "big 4" stations will be; everybody else doesn't have to be at full until July 1, 2006. Generally, PBS stations will always be at a respectable digital power, so you probably won't have to worry there. Furthermore, I recommend you get the ChannelMaster 4228 8-bay

UHF antenna. It also does a decent job of picking up channels 7-13, so when

a few stations go back to the VHF dial after analog shutdown, you probably

won't have to worry about it. The DB8 from Antennas Direct doesn't pick up VHF

channels 7-13 well at all, and the DB4 is even worse.


----------



## AntAltMike

Here is something that I would consider useful to see calculated. If you have an antenna with a 300 ohm dipole and, in a given field, it develops 10dBmV of signal power when its output terminals are impressed upon a 300 ohm load, which is what it "sees" when connected to a ferrite balun, then how much power would be developed if the output of that same 300 ohm source were instead impressed upon a 75 ohm load, which is what we appear to be doing when we use a 1/2 wave balun?


If it is less than when impressed upon a 300 ohm load, then that differential must be subtracted in the transmission link calculation just as the calculated or actual loss through the ferrite baluns is. In other words, hypothetically, if a ferrite balun 300 ohm input is the optimal load and if its insertion loss is 1.5dB, but if the use of a 1/2 wave balun results in the development of 1dB less of power because of the impedance mismatch, then the differential in power and therefore S/N present at the tuner is only 1/2 dB. I'd like to see the order of magnitude of the net power differential between the two different transmission links before I spend any time dealing with awkward 1/2 wave baluns.


Your experience with the PR-9032 over the Channel Master 4248 is just that: your experience. Two or three years ago, there were legions of members here who swore that the Channel Master yagi outperformed the Winegard. I told them that the difference couldn't amount to more than a warm pot of spit, and that I used and still use a lot more Winegard PRs than CMs, because they cost less and I have three Winegard stocking dealers within 30 miles of me. But I never outlasted the Channel Master afficianados


You should further contemplate Winegard's channel 69 plot, and notice that it is asymmetrical, which is consistent with my speculation that the mast causes it, because the mast is off to the side of the boom, and should also consider that the effects of a larger mast could well disrupt channels in the 50s. In attic applications, with no internal onstructins and no mast, the plots would look more like they do in the HDTVPrimer site, and I imagine that a plastic mast extension might make the mast disruption negligible as well.


But don't lose sight of what I said in the post in which I criticized the PR series upper UHF performance. I said it wouldn't likely be redesigned because it already seems to do well up to 700 Mz, which is where the band will end when the transition is over.


(Edited to extinguish flame war)


----------



## gondalguru

I am getting 5 out of 6 digital OTA channels on a dollars store 99 cent antenna v/s 4 out of 6 from 40+ dollars zenith silver sensor. I am 25 miles from broadcasting tower and out of 6 -- 4 yellow zone, 1 green zone and 1 red zone channels. Zenith SS is going back to sears....


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Andy in NYC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The one local guy in the Princeton area installs the Winegard 9095 and AP4800 pre-amp; if I want I can buy and he will install anything else.
> 
> 
> I've been looking at a DB4 or DB8 with a channelmaster 7777 pre-amp.



I, like others, would skip the preamp if you're trying for stations 35 or so miles away. All three antennas you've listed are murder on rotors - the 9095 because all the weight would go on one side - it mounts by the back end to the mast, the DB8 and DB4 because of wind load - bowties really pick up the wind when it blows just right (think wind sail.) But since you won't need a rotor at that distance, it's not really an issue.


In tests I've seen, the Channel Master 4221 and 4228 outperform the AntennasDirect models by a fair bit - especially on high VHF, where the split screen on the DB8 costs it some gain.


WHYY is reverting to channel 12. WCAU is not going to channel 10 because it would conflict with WHTM-DT in Harrisburg. WPVI and KYW are unknowns at this point because their digitals are "out of core" and their analogs are lo-VHF, so neither made a round one election.


If your installer is familiar with the 9095, I'd just go with that. It's more than enough antenna at your distance, and you shouldn't experience any problems with it. (Unless, of course, a station is running at very low power, in which case, you might have trouble with any antenna.) The exotic antennas some of us love are really only necessary for people in difficult/problematic locations, and from what I know of New Jersey topography, your situation wouldn't qualify.


----------



## digiblur




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Andy in NYC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm putting in an HD set (finally) and want an OTA antenna to go along with my DirectTV (which I'll up to HD also).



You mean "up to HD-Lite also".....DirectTV doesn't have HD anymore.


----------



## bobchase

Quote:

Originally Posted by *sregener*
Interesting picture. ....

The people who often lose out with reception due to beam angle are those who are "right under" the antenna, say a mile or two away. They often can't get reception with a typical 8db gain antenna (or any of the larger antennas) but they can get rock solid reception from small, indoor antennas like the DB2. I don't know if they're just picking up a reflection, but I've tried to help several people who can't get a blip because they're under the tower's shadow.
sregener,


The folks close in to a site have a triple whammy coming at them. 1st, gain in that direction is extremely low because the transmitters' energy is focused at the radio horizon. So their tuner or STB is struggling just to make the required S/N (Signal to Noise ratio) to receive a signal. The theoretical limit is 15.2 dB S/N. Anything lower than that and there is no DTV tonight.


2nd, the beam falls apart. The attached PDF is from KHWB's MK-II DTV antenna. (The MK-I died an ugly death.) The beam starts falling apart at 5 deg down angle which is just over 4 miles from the tower. At 7 degrees down (2 miles out) the beam has devolved into a complete mess. (In color, you could see this better.) This phenomenon is called differential gain error because the antenna has different gain on different frequencies within the channel. Every antenna has it, some worse than others. It is hard for a DTV tuner to put this back together because there is not enough equalization available to reassemble the ATSC data. If we were looking at a spectrum analyzer the signal would have huge notches in it like the worst multi-path you ever saw.


3rd, some antennas exhibit deep notches in the signal and sometime the notches will go right down to zero. Take a look at the PDF I sent before showing atypical transmit/receive antenna pair. On the upper side of the antenna those notches exist. That antenna uses specially placed elements called "Null Fill" to make the lower side (customers side) smooth, well, smoother anyway. The amount of 'null fill' used subtracks from the antenna gain, so it is always a trade-off of how much energy to divert to get a decent signal in-close vs. the cost of doing so.


So the folks close in have a tough time getting TV. One of my employees lives right in a another stations null. He can't receive that station unless they are on their auxiliary antenna. This fall we are going to test his attic and his front yard and I'll share the data. My bet is your are quite correct in that low gain antennas will out perform the high gain ones.


Bob Chase

KHWB-TV

 

TFU-18DSC-R CT220SP El Chart1 Diff Gain.pdf 44.7548828125k . file

 

Antenna Depression Angle.pdf 37.9404296875k . file


----------



## Wendell R. Breland

In response to Post Number 49


A dipole antenna has the electrical equivalent of a series connected Resistance, Capacitance and Inductance. Z = 272+j127Ω is the rectangular values of the polar form of Z = 300∠25°Ω. √(272² + 127²) = 300, Θ = ATAN(127/272) and is = to 25°. The plus value for j means it is inductive (if j were negative, then it would be capacitive). *Absolutely nothing vague about it!!!!!*


And once again the common 300Ω to 75Ω commercial ferrite balun is a Z of 4:1 or E of 2:1. *For an IDEAL balun.* If 1V is applied to the 300Ω terminals from a 300Ω source then there will be 0.5V (a drop of 6dB) across the 75Ω terminal when terminated with 75Ω. The source power and the terminated power levels are the same (IDEAL), P = E²/Z. The 4:1, 1/2λ coaxial balun operates the same way, 300Ω to 75Ω. THE DIFFERENCE: a 1/2λ coaxial balun does not have any core IR losses.


The PR-9032 (as most TV antennas and transmissions in the US) is horizontally polarized. Since the E Field is in the H Plane the vertical mast should have little effect on the reception. Most TV antennas I have installed used this form for mechanical mounting.


A search was made for PR-9032 for all AVS Forums, 12 threads were returned. There was only one post that had a negative comment. I know of a few that connected their balun leads to the 300Ω pass thru terminals and posted here their new Channel Master 4248 was no good. I suspect some have done the same with their PR-9032.



In response to Post Number 47


There are only 16 DTV stations in the CONUS that is above Channel 59. There is no channel 66 or 68 on the east coast. Channel 61 is WNET (PBS).



Conclusion:


In certain situations a coaxial balun will help with difficult ATSC channel reception. In most cases it probably will not make any difference in reception. The Winegard PR-9032 is one of the top performing UHF antennas*.*


To solve for Z and Θ requires only HS level math. A technical person should have answered these questions without any problem. There are no single-wind autoformers baluns, see the schematic I posted. I can only conclude that you are not a technical person and you need to stop trying to pose as one.


07-31-2005 Edited to insert spaces

08-16-2005 Edited to correct notations


----------



## Wendell R. Breland

OK folks a little background on me. I was a Technical Services Supervisor for 34 years for the statewide public broadcasting system. I have retired and have no ties or connections to any type organization, I do own a small home business. As of June 2007 we have purchased common shares of stock in Dolby Labs. As of March 2008 we have purchased common shares of stock in Netflix and Sirius XM Radio, as of January 28, 2010 Netflix stock was sold. As of 01/10/2002 we have Apple, Amazon and Google stocks (as of 06/29/2021 we still have those stocks). I have a Associates Degree in Electronics Technology, FCC First Class License (in the days before it was a box top) and General Class Amateur Radio License. I was a AES Member for over 20 years.

Attached is a picture of several broadcast or receiving items that I was affiliated with or I was directly responsible for: Left – 300 ft. microwave tower; at the top of the tower are microwave dishes for a 145mb/s payload statewide digital distribution systems. Down the side is a Channel 20 DTV antenna. We went on the air with ATSC Channel 20 in November 1998.

Right Top – A 10 meter satellite dish and a 8.5 meter steerable satellite dish. The 8.5 meter is for receive and Ku up-linking. We had several other small dishes for various applications.

Bottom Right – A 15 ft. Rohn tower on top of the penthouse. We had several channel specific Blonder-Tongue (commerical grade) receiving antennas on this tower.

Bottom Center – Yours truly in Post Audio siting in front of a 96 X 64 Harrison Audio Desk with a Cinema (5.1) Monitor Group. Audio & Video is my true love. I designed and help construct this room and all the loudspeakers (8). I was responsible for most equipment items at the production center and the HD mobile production trailer.

My personal home theater:

*Automation: X10, Samsung SmartThings, Echo Dot & Cube, 3 Google Mini's, Zigbee, Z-Wave, ISY-994i and Harmony Hub
Amazon FireTV Cube
ADC Audio Spectrum Analyzer
Chromecast Audio Model RUX-J42
Crown XLS 1000 for Front Height Speakers
Crown XLS 1000 for Rear Height Speakers
Crown DC-300 for Front Main Speakers
Da-Lite Da-Snap Cinemascope Format, 52" x 122", HD Progressive 1.1 Perf Material***
Da-Lite Pro Imager Horizontal Screen Masking System***
E-SDS 5X1 HDMI Switch
EPVision PHD 205LE ATSC/QAM Tuner
Fluke 8060A Digital Multimeter
FreeSat V7Max DVB-S2 Satellite Receiver
Galaxy CM-140 (Cross Spectrum Labs calibrated) SPL Meter
Hafler DH-120 for Two Back Speakers
Hafler DH-200 for Front Center Speaker
Hafler DH-120 for Two Side Speakers
Heathkit IG-1275 Lin/Log Sweep Generator
HP 400EL dB Meter
HSU (2) VTF-15H MK2 Sub-woofers
JVC HM-DH5U D-VHS Machine
Manhattan DJ-1997 Satellite Receiver
Marantz MKII IR Remote Control
miniDSP UMIK-1 (Cross Spectrum Labs calibrated) Measurement Microphone
Nvidia Shield Pro 2019
Oppo UDP-203 4K/UHD Blu-ray Disc Player
Roku Ultra 2019
Rigol DS1102E Digital Oscilloscope
Siglent SDM3045X Dual-Display Digital Multimeter
Sony UBP-X800/BM UHD/4K Blu-ray Disc Player
Sony UBP-X1000ES UHD/4K Blu-ray Disc Player
Sony VPL-VW600ES 4K Video Projector***
Sony ST-SE370 AM-FM Tuner
Sony TC-RX311 Cassette Recorder
TBS 6983 PCIe Satellite Tuner Card
URC MX-980 Remote Control with MRF-260 RF Base***
Yamaha CX-A5100 Dolby Atmos/DTS:X Audio/Video Processor
Zappiti NAS with 98TB of user space
Zappiti Neo*

HTPC with MIT MDP-130 ATSC Tuner Card/DVI Daughter Card,**, Prof 7301 Satellite Tuner Card, Samsung 710n LCD monitor, Aura Vision Keyboard (back lighted) and Mouse. Specialty Software: True Audio 1/24 Octave Analyzer, SpectraPlus 3.0 1/3 Octave Analyzer, TSReader Transport Stream Analyzer, Generic CADD, Visual CADD, Auto CAD lt, Bass Box and Box Plot Speaker Design, Cool Edit 2000 Audio Editor, Electronic Workbench and Display Mate.

Added to other new computer: TBS6983 Satellite Tuner Card, Hauppauge 1196 WinTV-HVR-1250 PCI-E X1 Internal HDTV Card

Antennas: Winegard DS-3100 1M Satellite Dish (used for PBS HD)

Have used the following (now replaced or no longer used or in storage): Winegard PR-9032 UHF Antenna and Winegard VHF Hi-Band YA-1713 with a Channel Master 9521 Rotor, 18 X 24 inch Dish for Dish Network at 110° & 119°, 18" Round Dish for 61.5° for Dish Network, Channel Master 5656 U/V Antenna, Channel Master’s 4408 FM Antenna, 3021 UHF Antenna, 4248 UHF Antenna and a Silver Sensor UHF Antenna.

*Items purchased from Jason Turk right here at A/V Science Inc.
**Items purchased from Digital Connection, a supporter of A/V Science Inc.
*** Items purchased from Mike Garrett at A/V Science Sales

All loudspeakers, 19" Equipment Racks, and HTPC were designed and constructed by me. Several of my hardware items is most likely older than many people on this forum.

12-20-2005: Added HM-DH5U D-VHS Machine
04-26-2006: Added Winegard YA-1713 Antenna
08-01-2006: Removed Dish Network 6000 HD Satellite Receiver and Dish Network 811 HD Satellite Receiver
11-04-2006: Added Tenma, Outlaw & URC
12-01-2006: Added Zektor HDVI5 DVI ? S/PDIF Switcher
01-07-2007: Added Panasonic DMP-BD10
01-07-2007: Removed: JVC HM-DH3000U D-VHS Machine ● Sony EP9ES Dolby Digital Decoder ● NEC AVX-910 Audio/Video Switcher/Selector ● NEC PLD-910 Dolby Pro-Logic Surround Decoder
12-05-2008: Added Panasonic DMP-BD55 Blu-ray Player
12-05-2008: Removed Sony DVP-S7000 DVD Player
02-02-2012: Removed Outlaw Model 970 Processor/Controller/AM-FM Tuner
02-02-2012: Added Onkyo PR-SC-5508P Processor/Controller/AM-FM Tuner
02-21-2012: Added Rigol DS1102E Digital Oscilloscope
08-20-2012: Added Panasonic DMP-BDT220 Blu-ray Player
08-20-2012: Removed Panasonic DMP-BD10 & DMP-BD55 Blu-ray Players
12-24-2012: Added GEOSATpro microHD Satellite Receiver
02-25-2013: Removed JVC DLA-HX1U HD Video Projector*
02-25-2014: Removed Da-Lite Da-Snap 52 X 92 (106 Dia) with Audio Vision material screen*
12-01-2014: Added VW600, Da-Lite screen with mask and MX-980 with base.
09-09-2015: Removed Crown PS-400 for Sub-Woofer and DIY sub
09-09-2015: Added 2 HSU VTF-15H MK2 Sub-Woofers
12/15/2016: Added Yamaha CX-A5100, Oppo UDP-203 and removed Onkyo PR-SC5508P
12/27/2019: Added Nvidia Shield Pro 2019
01/16/2020: Added Roku Ultra 2019
11/28/2020: Added Siglent SDM3045X Dual-Display Digital Multimeter
12/26/2020: Added Amazon Fire TV Cube
04/13/2022: Added Zappiti NAS, external drive and Zappiti Neo











Relocated to the mountains of North Carolina 01/02/2011. In the process of building a new home theater. Will use most of the existing hardware. Will experiment with OTA antennas once the weather warms.

OTA could prove to be difficult, will use QAM for the near term. Update 01-02-2012: Have decided to stay with QAM for the foreseeable future.

*11/07/2011 Added a few photos of our Home Theater project on my Facebook page here.*


----------



## crashairlines




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> 9. Now this one is ironic! You think a few inches of plywood and shingles won't kill a signal (real world test suggest 13dB signal loss) but a few extra feet of cable (real world test suggest 3dB/100ft) would?!?



I was worried about this, and an extra layer of shingles on my roof might have actually helped me get better reception. I'm not sure yet. I live in the Phoenix area in Arizona, and all the TV stations here put their antennas on top of the same mountain about 11 miles from where I live. I have a Samsung 360 receiver where the OTA meter is pretty useless, and a channelmaster antenna in the attic. I was having trouble losing a couple of stations once in awhile during the last year. They wouldn't always stay locked. Usually during the week during the day. I think it was due to multipath, usually on weekdays when there is more traffic. Just a guess on my part though.


I recently added another layer of shingles on my roof since it was getting old, and I was worried it would cause worse reception. It turns out my reception has been better since adding an additional layer of shingles. It's only been a month since having my roof redone, but I haven't lost a signal yet in that time OTA. I'm wondering if the extra layer of shingles helped block out the weaker multipath signals while the main signal which is stronger still gets through giving me a stronger signal lock? Just guessing and theory on my part which could be wrong, but I hope that's the case. It would make life nicer while waiting for D*TV to get the local HDTV stations up and running in my market which isn't in the top 12.







With my luck though it's probably just coincidence and I'll start losing that signal lock once football season starts.


So in short, if you want to stop multipath problems, try spending $4000 to have an extra layer of shingles installed and see if that helps.


----------



## holl_ands

Can't overlook the obvious. Close in to the transmitter site also can have very high signal

levels either from direct signals or backscatter from nearby buildings and/or terrain. Which can overload the HDTV's tuner.


Which would explain why a low gain indoor antenna can sometimes provide better results

than a medium gain outdoor antenna.


Anyone close to a transmitter site should try lowering the signal level by inserting a variable RF Attenuator prior to their HDTV.


----------



## Eddy13

Guys I seem to have a problem im about 30 miles from transmittors. I had a small antenna and i started to lose signals from 7 and 10 in miami.. I bout a medium radio shack roof top antenna and things got a bit better but still started to get all over the place readings with 7 and 10.... The thing is right about 200 yards out theres 2 huge palm trees and i have my antenna pointed right in the middle sort of like a fiel goal.. Well I tried placing my antenna real high and it seems that my best signal comes from it being real low.... Well everythign was fine and dandy but today it is a humid really humid night and channel 7 is about 18 decibals lower from normal.... Do you think a signal booster will help me with my up and down readings... I sort fo get the basketball signal readings at times...


----------



## Eddy13

im now using the radio shack vu 190.. there biggest antenna.. I have it 3 feet higher than the roof.. I get good readings through out but sometimes like 7 or 10 will get real low .. like for instance on a normal day i get in between 85-89 on these channels but today my channel 7 is from 70-74..... sometimes with dips into 69... Now my run is about 50-70 feet and i have it going into a direct tv multi switch in order to split it to my whole house..... Do you think a signal amp will make a diff and if so which one.. Also the guy from radio shack said that i can put the signal booster to where the cable meets the receiver and plug the power source at the wall...


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Eddy13* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well everythign was fine and dandy but today it is a humid really humid night and channel 7 is about 18 decibals lower from normal.... Do you think a signal booster will help me with my up and down readings... I sort fo get the basketball signal readings at times...



If your signal strength is varying wildly, the problem is rarely a weak signal - usually this is a sign of multipath. And with VHF, 30 miles is nothing, so you've got more than enough antenna. I'd guess that a signal booster would either make things worse or make no change in your situation.


Two things you can try. One is to bypass the multiswitch and see if that helps at all. Try a direct line to one tuner and see if that makes a difference. Multiswitches are notorious for messing up antenna reception, and they often impact only a small range of channels. I'm not saying it can't work, but if you're trying to troubleshoot, that's something to test for. The other you can try is a variable attenuator from Radio Shack. When the signal is bouncing around, try dialing up the attenuation and see if that helps - an attenuator can knock reflected signals (i.e. multipath) below the tuner's threshold and possibly make things better.


All of this, of course, assumes that you're trying to troubleshoot a problem with your *picture*, not your meter. If the picture is rock solid and breakup-free, don't mess with it no matter what the meter says.


----------



## mrkevindang

I was very excited when received my SS-3000 last Friday. I had high hopes for this antenna. Afterall, it's a Winegard and it's their "Newest & Best"!


Well, I was thoroughly disappointed.

*Appearance*

The construction of the antenna base is made of plastic. The "reflector grid" is then attached to it via 4 plastic arms. This "reflector grid" is nothing more than a thin (1/32"), flat, piece of see-thru plastic with a pasted-on grid. This whole thing is made of cheap plastic! My unit was new, but it had scratches everywhere, so it looked like a beat-up, home made antenna.

*Assembly*

Assembly was quite simple. You just need to fasten two screws to attach the reflector grid to the base unit. The thing is, the pre-drilled holes on the reflector grid was BIGGER than the screw head so if you screw it tight, the reflector grid would just pop off. DUH! I added a washer to each of the screws to remedy this.

*Reception*

When I opened the box, I found a power adaptor inside. I didn't know this unit is powered so I was pleasantly surprised. But that pleasantry didn't last very long. I disconnected my Silver Sensor and anxiously connected the SS-3000. I was sure the SS-3000 would solve all my bad reception woes. No more skipping frames (or so I hoped)!


But sadly, the SS-3000 performed no better than the Silver Sensor!! I flipped through the channels, some had solid signals, but some still showed skipped frames. I carefully adjusted the SS-3000 trying to point it to the perfect spot... but no matter how/where I pointed it, it performed no better than the Silver Sensor!


Well, that's my account of the SS-3000. Good luck to you if you decide to get one. I live near Fremont, CA (Bay Area).


Cheers,

Kevin


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mrkevindang* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I carefully adjusted the SS-3000 trying to point it to the perfect spot... but no matter how/where I pointed it, it performed no better than the Silver Sensor!



Actually, that's pretty high praise for the SS-3000. I would have expected this made-for-Terk product to perform far worse than the Silver Sensor.


----------



## JohnSwenson

Kevin, I also live in Fremont, my experience here is that there is a strong multipath issue with the San Francisco stations, you get a strong direct signal from Sutro tower and a not very much weaker signal bouncing off the Hayward hills. I had to go with a fairly highly directional UHF yagi to clean it all up nicely. Except for KNTV which is in the Santa Cruz hills, I had to build a separate antenna just for them.


Everybody in my neighborhhod that is getting good solid reception is using an outdoor yagi of some sort, they don't have to be high, just pretty directional. The indoor or atic reception here is terrible, primarily because the houses are all stuco which does a very good job of blocking the signal. If you are not in a stuco house you might get away with a pretty directional antenna inside, OR a stuco house with the antenna carefully placed and oriented to make use of the stuco as part of the directional characteristics of the antenna. For example I could put a low directional antenna in the middle of the kitchen and it worked well because the kitchen window was pointed at the hayward bounce, the walls screened out the direct signal. Of course my wife didn't particularly want an antenna in the middle of the kitchen so a directional one went outside!


John S.


----------



## dturturro

I tried searching for CM antenna reception maps with no luck. I saw on the Winegard web site they plot their reception for their antennas but CM does not. Does anyone know if I can find these?


----------



## houselog442

Since there is 82 pages of antenna talk on here, and i do not read this topic much, i thought it is interesting that walmart now sells an amplified silver sensor now with vhf dipoles

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...00000001827170


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *houselog442* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Since there is 82 pages of antenna talk on here, and i do not read this topic much, i thought it is interesting that walmart now sells an amplified silver sensor now with vhf dipoles
> 
> http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...00000001827170



Philips may be calling this a "silver sensor", but it's not.


Maybe it will work though.


----------



## dturturro

OK, if not a map maybe an answer: Most of my stations come from 285 degrees and 25 miles away. I get those with no problems. There's a PBS station at 297 degrees and 37 miles that I used to receive intermittently but no longer. Also, I have another PBS station at 57 degrees that's only 5 miles away that I receive very sketchy.


I'm using an RCA-3036 antenna with a CM7777 preamp and rotor. No matter where I point the rotor I'm not getting the 37 mile PBS station. I can tune in the 5 mile station with no problems but then I lose all my main stations from the Empire State Building.


I'm thinking of adding a Channel Master UHF only antenna to the preamps UHF input and keeping the RCA for the VHF side.


My question is will the CM 4248 UHF Yagi be less directional than the 4228 bowtie? I'm hoping to aim in between the 285/297 stations and pick up the 57 degree station from the side. If I'm sort of receiving it with the RCA I figure the higher gain CM would pull it in but I'm not sure if it's TOO directional to do this.


----------



## holl_ands

SYLVANIA 6900DTE with DTA-5000 SMART ANTENNA:


First On-Air Test of the First EIA/CEA-909 interface in an STB and Smart Antenna
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...41#post5979741 


THE GOOD NEWS:

For the past two weeks, I compared the On-Air DTV performance of the DTA-5000 Smart Antenna

to a 4-Bay Vertical Zig-Zag for two indoor and two outdoor locations chosen primarily for WAF.


The Smart Antenna consistently brought in the more difficult channels when the 4-Bay

was suffering from varying degrees of signal dropout.

I was impressed the presumably low-gain, compact DTA-5000 outperformed a medium gain 4-Bay Antenna.


AND THE BAD NEWS:

For both the first and the replacement STB from Amazon.com, both the Optical and Coax

Dolby Digital Audio interfaces were not operating correctly. Now I need to get it fixed.


----------



## August West

I tried this on a cable TV forum with no luck - maybe someone here can answer this as this really is also an OTA question.


I just ran cable from my HDTV up to my attic and will eventually hook up an antenna. The run was right at 75' so I opted to use a 25' cable connected via a pass through male to male connector to a 50' cable rather than run 1 100' cable. My hope is that this will have less signal loss due to the shorter length (RG6 the whole way).


My question is - what is the loss through such a connector? If it measurable? I'm assuming it to be in the 1 dB range but have no basis for this. Thanks.


----------



## aprest

I just installed a Channel Master 4221 (CM4221) UHF antenna in my attic. The antenna is split to feed two separate diplexers (diplexed from a 4X8 multiswitch) that feed to two DirecTV H10-250 TIVO HD receivers in two different rooms. The number of OTA channels that I receive with the H10-250 virtually doubled as compared to an old RadioShack VHF/UHF antenna also mounted in the attic. Most of the broadcast towers are located 140 to 145 degrees from my house except for the Washington DC PBS tower which is located at 172 degrees from my house. By aiming the CM4221 antenna at about 160 degrees I am able to get good reception of all these channels (75 to 95% as measured by the H10-250 receiver). However I would really like to receive the PBS channels broadcast from Annapolis Maryland which is 102 degrees from my house (~30% as measured by the H10-250 receiver). This PBS station has a better slection of HD and SD programs than does the Washington DC PBS station. I am not able to position the CM4221 to receive all the above channels reliably (I can get the Annapolis PBS station if I rotate the antenna to 102 degrees but then I loose the other channels). Note that I chose the CM4221 over the CM4228 because the CM 4221 is less directional than the CM4228 and I am less than 10 miles from the towers (except for the Annapolis tower which is 31 miles away).


Is it possible to stack and combine two CM4221 antennas that are pointed in two different directions (one at ~160 degrees and the other at ~102 degrees) so that I can receive all these channels? The Annapolis PBS is broadcast with a frequency assignment of 42 whereas the othe channels that I receive range between 27 to 51. I have read that if I stack them about 2 feet apart and connect the two anttenas with 12 gauge wire that I could use a standard splitter/combiner to combine them into one downlead. It is not clear to me from what I read whether this will work and what the issues might be.


Comments and suggestions?


----------



## AntAltMike

MPT DTV is in channel 42. You can couple a dedicated channel 42 antenna into your main antenna feed using a Channel Master Jointenna. If using the channel 42 Jointenna interferes with the reception of ABC-DTV 39, then try a channel 43 Jointenna instead. I think these can be bought from Stark or maybe Warren for about $40 each.


Ignore what you have read about stacking. That information was to enable someone to develop a tuned antenna array such that both antennas are receiving intended signals from the same transmitters. That is not your application


As all of my former Potomac Maryland residential customers had houses of 10,000 square feet or larger, I will assume that member aprest lives in a very large house and may find it most cost effective to buy a channel 42 Jointenna and a channel 43 model, so that he can compare them side-by-side, to see which one works better. He also should consider using a 4228 8-bay for Annapolis WMPT-PBS 42


----------



## aprest

Thanks AntAltMike,

I am going to try both since I do get both UHF frequencies 39 and 43. I am willing to give up 43 to get 42. Can I mount the 2nd CM4221 or CM4228 on the same mast? If so, how far apart? I might have a problem with the CM4228 because the attic access opening only has a maximum 37 inch (diagonally) opening. According to the ChannelMaster homepage the CM4228 is 39.5 inches wide by 36 inches high. Do you happen to know if the 4228 screen can be easily removed from the bow ties so that I could take the screen up sideways (the 36 inch height)? I had to remove the screen from the CM4221 to straighten it out from damage in shipping and it was easy to remove by bending a few metal tabs.


----------



## AntAltMike

Don't use the same mast. That way, it will be easier to find a "sweet spot" for each antenna.


The screen comes off the 4228 by bending the tabs that hold it on, or, more accurately, hold _them_ on. There are two screens, so each will be about 18" wide and will pass readily through your ceiling hatch.


You won't be "giving up 43 to get 42". The Jointenna combines a primitive bandpass filter with a primitive band reject filter. The band reject filter rejects the channel you want it to, plus two or three channels above and below it, so the band reject filter in a channel 42 Jointenna might degrade channel 39 on your main antenna downlead a little more than you'd like it to.


Similarly, the bandpass path of a channel 42 Jointenna pretty cleanly passes the channel above and the one below, so if the Channel 42 jointenna mucks up 39, the channel 43 jointenna will probably pass channel 42 just fine through its single channel input, but will do less band-reject damage to 39.


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *August West* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I tried this on a cable TV forum with no luck - maybe someone here can answer this as this really is also an OTA question.
> 
> 
> I just ran cable from my HDTV up to my attic and will eventually hook up an antenna. The run was right at 75' so I opted to use a 25' cable connected via a pass through male to male connector to a 50' cable rather than run 1 100' cable. My hope is that this will have less signal loss due to the shorter length (RG6 the whole way).
> 
> 
> My question is - what is the loss through such a connector? If it measurable? I'm assuming it to be in the 1 dB range but have no basis for this. Thanks.



The connector loss is minimal provided you tighten the connectors lightly with a 7/16" wrench.


Bob Chase

KHWB-TV


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *aprest* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just installed a Channel Master 4221 (CM4221) UHF antenna in my attic. The antenna is split to feed two separate diplexers (diplexed from a 4X8 multiswitch) that feed to two DirecTV H10-250 TIVO HD receivers in two different rooms. The number of OTA channels that I receive with the H10-250 virtually doubled as compared to an old RadioShack VHF/UHF antenna also mounted in the attic. Most of the broadcast towers are located 140 to 145 degrees from my house except for the Washington DC PBS tower which is located at 172 degrees from my house. By aiming the CM4221 antenna at about 160 degrees I am able to get good reception of all these channels (75 to 95% as measured by the H10-250 receiver). However I would really like to receive the PBS channels broadcast from Annapolis Maryland which is 102 degrees from my house (~30% as measured by the H10-250 receiver). This PBS station has a better slection of HD and SD programs than does the Washington DC PBS station. I am not able to position the CM4221 to receive all the above channels reliably (I can get the Annapolis PBS station if I rotate the antenna to 102 degrees but then I loose the other channels). Note that I chose the CM4221 over the CM4228 because the CM 4221 is less directional than the CM4228 and I am less than 10 miles from the towers (except for the Annapolis tower which is 31 miles away).
> 
> 
> Is it possible to stack and combine two CM4221 antennas that are pointed in two different directions (one at ~160 degrees and the other at ~102 degrees) so that I can receive all these channels? The Annapolis PBS is broadcast with a frequency assignment of 42 whereas the othe channels that I receive range between 27 to 51. I have read that if I stack them about 2 feet apart and connect the two anttenas with 12 gauge wire that I could use a standard splitter/combiner to combine them into one downlead. It is not clear to me from what I read whether this will work and what the issues might be.
> 
> 
> Comments and suggestions?



Don't forget your other options (in addition to the Jointenna) are to get a rotator or run two separate downleads into an A/B switch.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> He also should consider using a 4228 8-bay for Annapolis WMPT-PBS 42



Why not the 4221? After all, he says if he aims his current one in that direction, he gets great reception of WMPT-DT. Why spend the extra $$$ on a bigger antenna?


----------



## AntAltMike

I've had "iffy" reception of WMPT in several Potomac installations. In fact, if you look at where the transmitters are, you might be surprise to learn that channel 50/51 is commonly much weaker, in absolute signal strength, than are 34, 36 and 39, even though it is only maybe two miles further away and probably on about the same reception azimuth. It is more a matter of terrain than distance, and he is putting his antenna in the attic, so for an extra few dollars he might want to maximize the Annapolis signal quality.


----------



## aprest




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Why not the 4221? After all, he says if he aims his current one in that direction, he gets great reception of WMPT-DT. Why spend the extra $$$ on a bigger antenna?



I found that the reception of WMPT-DT is iffy with the 4221. Interestingly, this morning with the 4221 pointed at ~160 degrees I was receiving channel 42 until the sun came out and then I lost it. I also think that I want the higher directionality of the 4228 in addition to the better gain. For ~ $15 more why not?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *aprest* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I found that the reception of WMPT-DT is iffy with the 4221.



Well, that seals the deal. Before, you had reported that you got WMPT-DT with your 4221. I always hesitate to tell people to buy a different antenna when the one they're using works. If you were having problems, though, the 4228 is the way to go.


----------



## cmk

I have two HD sets. For one TV I have a CM4228 mounted in a storage space/attic behind one tv. The cable run for this is less than 10ft. Most of the time the 4228 works great. Down stairs I have a radio shack antenna (don't recall the model) and it works just OK. I have tried the silver sensor and it didn't work all that great for downstairs. What I would like to do is run about 100ft of cable from the CM4228 to a multiswitch then diplex the signal for the downstairs tv. My question is when I tried a test just going into the grounding block the downstairs TV could pick up anything. I think the cable run was too long. It is 100 ft to the grounding block plus however long the cable is through the house to the TV. I am going to install a multiswitch this week when I get my HD tivo. Will the multiswitch since it is powered help with my problem or do I need a pre amp. My concern is a pre amp might make things worse since I am only 11 miles from the towers. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cmk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My concern is a pre amp might make things worse since I am only 11 miles from the towers. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.



At 11 miles, you don't need a preamp, even for a 100'+ run. You should troubleshoot other problems, like potentially a bad grounding block, bad cable, bad connectors, etc. If you're using RG-59 cable, you should replace it with shielded RG-6.


----------



## russellps

Anyone in the Westminster, MD area (Carroll county) have luck with any particular attic mount antennas? Just looking for digital channels to complement satellite service. I'm just under 25 miles from the antenna farm in Baltimore and I'm in a residential neighborhood (2 story townhome). I want to avoid roof mounting. Any make/model suggestions appreciated. Thanks!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *russellps* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyone in the Westminster, MD area (Carroll county) have luck with any particular attic mount antennas?



You'd have better luck finding locals in the Baltimore thread.


Generically, the Channel Master 4228 is either the best, or near the best, for attic antennas. Buy one from a place you can return it to if it doesn't work out, try it, and see.


----------



## August West




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *russellps* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyone in the Westminster, MD area (Carroll county) have luck with any particular attic mount antennas? Just looking for digital channels to complement satellite service. I'm just under 25 miles from the antenna farm in Baltimore and I'm in a residential neighborhood (2 story townhome). I want to avoid roof mounting. Any make/model suggestions appreciated. Thanks!



Not to take the thread off topic but I live near Sykesville and just ordered a Channel Master 3016 which I will install in my attic in the next few weeks. Post a follow up in the DC/Baltimore thread in a few weeks and I'll let you know how it works.


----------



## russellps




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You'd have better luck finding locals in the Baltimore thread.
> 
> 
> Generically, the Channel Master 4228 is either the best, or near the best, for attic antennas. Buy one from a place you can return it to if it doesn't work out, try it, and see.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *August West* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Not to take the thread off topic but I live near Sykesville and just ordered a Channel Master 3016 which I will install in my attic in the next few weeks. Post a follow up in the DC/Baltimore thread in a few weeks and I'll let you know how it works.



I posted in the Baltimore/DC thread ealier and didn't get a lot of response. Thanks for the Channel Master recoomendation.


August, please do post your results. I'll look for your post in the DC/Balt thread. Good luck!


----------



## Rich P

I'm having a house built and the contractor doing the structured wiring has plans of dropping the off air antenna directly to the HT TV. I think it would be better to run this to the distribution box so I could send that signal to any TV.


What do you think?


----------



## Arbys_Night

Here's my setup, so those of you in my area can know what works:

*Location:*
Porter Ranch, CA 91326
Near Northridge and Chatsworth

*House Construction:*
Two story
Wood on concrete foundation
Stucco exterior (with chicken wire)
Concrete tile roof

*Antenna:*
Channel Master 3016 located in attic
I used the included matching transformer to connect to an RG-6 cable run down to my TV box on the side of the house. The RG-6 run is about 100 feet from the box to the antenna
The antenna lead connects to a 3x8 multiswitch that Directv installed with my dish
I break the antenna signal off my satellite cable at the satellite box using the diplexer listed below.

*Diplexer:*
Zenith brand

*Where purchased:*
Channel Master 3016 antenna ($35) from Lowes
Zenith diplexer ($13) from Lowes
Attic mount for antenna ($5) from Lowes
Mast for antenna ($8) from Lowes

*Install Notes:*
We purchased our home new and had the builder run six RG-6 leads into the attic for satellite stuff. Two of these are used by our satellite dish, and now one more for the antenna.
Antenna install time was about 2 hours. Most of the time was negotiating myself into/out of the attic to get tools.
Do the install on a cool day. I didn't and I think I lost about 10 pounds, all sweat.
The antenna is a tight fit. Our house happens to face the transmission towers, so the length of the antenna wasn't an issue. However, the width of the antenna caused the four longest elements to interfere with the veritcal 2x4s in attic.
The antenna points out one end of the house, thru a stucco wall, more-or-less directly at the transmission towers 28 miles away, line of sight. Other than the stucco wall, it's a straight, unobstructed shot. On a clear day with binoculars I can see the transmission cluster on Mt. Wilson.

*Signal Quality:*
I was previously using a whip antenna (one rabbit ear) on top of my entertainment center. I was getting decent signal:

2.1=86, 4.1=82, 7.1=47, 9.1=80, 11.1=54, 13.1=0

The analog channels were worthless.
New reception is not any better, but the weak or missing channels have been filled in. Futher, I now get the analog channels as good as those from Directv.

2.1=75, 4.1=79, 7.1=78, 9.1=81, 11.1=79, 13.1=79

This reception is without any antenna aiming. I just ballparked the direction based on antennaweb. I plan on fine tuning the aim on a future weekend once I have my HDTivo installed.


----------



## philipgomez

Wow, I'm surprised you get anything at all through the chicken wire. That stuff will cut your reception way down. I'm sure you've heard it before... get it outside and higher is usually better. I'm not discouraging attic mounts, I have mine set up that way. The only difference is that I'm shooting through a wood and asphalt shingle roof and I'm about 22 miles from the broadcast towers.


Good luck with your fine tuning.


----------



## vman41




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *philipgomez* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wow, I'm surprised you get anything at all through the chicken wire. That stuff will cut your reception way down.



In my bedroom I have a silver sensor in the closet and it picks up a digital station 30 miles away shooting through a stucco wall. I think windows leak a lot of signal into the house. The thing I found that has the most problems with stucco is my old 27 Mhz cordless phone.


I put a 'coat hanger' ( homemade antenna ) in my attic to feed my living room though. The signal gets split a couple times so I needed the extra gain. The non-UHF stations are no more than 6 miles away.


----------



## joeycicero

the direct tv guy was out today hooking up hd with the ota antenae? I thought you needed to run the hd direct tv and the ota antenae seperate and he stated that he connected the two (3lnb dish and ota antenae) on the roof and that is why only 1 line was running into my building and that my HD receiver will seperate the cable from the local channels .......

does this sound right??? ---he will be back tomorrow to finish the install???


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *joeycicero* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I thought you needed to run the hd direct tv and the ota antenae seperate and he stated that he connected the two (3lnb dish and ota antenae) on the roof and that is why only 1 line was running into my building and that my HD receiver will seperate the cable from the local channels .......
> 
> does this sound right??? ---he will be back tomorrow to finish the install???



He's using a multiplexer. They work fine for many people, but if you have reception problems with OTA, the first thing to try is to bypass the multiplexer. They often introduce noise at certain frequencies (varies by local conditions) that can destroy one channel while letting everything else through. When it works, it does so because DirecTV uses different frequencies for the satellite info than broadcast OTA does.


----------



## holl_ands

A low-loss SAT/TV "Diplexer" can be used to combine the OTA signals (54-806 MHz) with the SAT signals (960-1450 MHz) on the same downlead.

Then another "Diplexer" is used to split out the signals feeding the SAT receiver input and OTA input(s).

Some Multiswitches have an OTA input, which means they employ an internal "Diplexer".

And some newer Dishes have the Multiswitch built in and may require an external Diplexer(s).


A Diplexer may look like a standard cable RF splitter, but it works quite differently, using bandpass filters to separate the SAT and OTA signals.

A "DC PASS" port must be used when connecting the Dish to the SAT Receiver, because the receiver provides power and control signals to the LNB's.

And you want to make sure that DC Power is BLOCKED going to the OTA receiver input(s).


----------



## NightHawk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wendell R. Breland* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In response to Post Number 58
> 
> 
> A dipole antenna has the electrical equivalent of a series connected Resistance, Capacitance and Inductance. 272O j, +127O i is the rectangular values of the polar form of Z = 300O ∠25°. v(272² + 127²) = 300, T = ATAN(127/272) and is = to 25°. The plus value for i means it is inductive (if i were negative, then it would be capacitive). *Absolutely nothing vague about it!!!!!*



Good stuff but your notation is confusing. 'j' should always be associated with the total reactance, not the real portion of the complex impedance. That's how it is in most texts.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NightHawk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Good stuff but your notation is confusing. 'j' should always be associated with the total reactance, not the real portion of the complex impedance. That's how it is in most texts.



The intent was to simplify and show the Real (j, x axis) and the Imaginary (i, ±y axis) values of the complex impedance (I know j is not real). Edited to add: You are correct. I should have used R = 272Ω, Xl = 127Ω, or x = 272Ω, y = +127Ω.

*Rectangular* Z = 272+j127Ω, *Polar* Z = 300∠25°Ω



And another thing, cut me some slack, I am retired and its been 35 years since college





















. Was there a song about the J Operator or was that Smooth Operator??


PS: NightHawk, are you seeing the Greek symbols?? Some did not show in your Quote Back.


----------



## NightHawk

Yes, I'm seeing the Greek.

In math texts they use i for the orthagonal axis but it was changed to j for electronics texts to avoid confusion with the symbol for instantaneous current. The two should never used in the same equation. Feeling younger yet?


----------



## DrDon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wendell R. Breland* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> are you seeing the Greek symbols??



Symbols? Heck, it's ALL Greek to me.










(Ok, maybe not all of it. But it's been 25 years since I tested for my ham ticket)


Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Doc


----------



## kevin75

i have gotten my new antenna to install tomorrow and am wondering something. at the current time, the only HD stations are in one direction so i don't think that i need a rotator. is it particularly difficult to install one later? i don't want to get one right now because i am already over what i wanted to spend so i am trying to cut costs in the now if possible.


thanks.


----------



## cpcat

Running the rotator wire is the biggest issue. Installing the rotator itself is just a matter of getting up there to do it and getting another short piece of mast.


If you really think you'll add a rotator later, run the rotator wire now. The CM model uses a 3-conductor wire. It wouldn't hurt to run 5 or even 6 conductor wire in case you want a heavy-duty rotator at some point.


----------



## spikeit

Hello,


I've got a Winegard Sensar III mounted outdoors and I'm less than a mile from all the antennas according to antennaweb. I get a handful of signals and I'm not sure if I switch to the Terk HDTVs outdoor amplified antenna will help or not. Also wondering if moving the antenna to a higher point would help. I talked to a local electronics store and they pretty much said that the towers around me will make it impossible to get any signals due to mulit-path / null phenomena. Please advise... maybe it's time I switch to cable.


Thanks,

R


----------



## holl_ands

When you are that close, you obviously have TOO much signal strength.

The last thing you want to do is use an amplified antenna, like the Sensar III.


So if you intend using an outdoor antenna (which should minimize multipath), then it must be unamplified.

Even then you'll probably still have TOO much signal strength and may need to insert

a $10 Variable RF Attenuator (Radio Shack 15-678) prior to the antenna input on your TV.


Leakage into the long downlead cable can also result in multipath interference.

Double or Quad shielded cable can help reduce this problem.


Instead of outdoors, you may want to try using an indoor antenna (thereby eliminating the long downlead),

but you may still need the Variable RF Attenuator to reduce the signal strength.


You might want to try the Terk HDTVi (with rabbit ears for VHF) or the Silver Sensor (without),

since they are directional and can provide significant multipath reduction.

You might also want to try a cheap clipon bowtie or loop/rabbit ear type antenna,

esp if you just happen to have one in the house. Just make sure it's unamplified.


----------



## Neil L

Plus, that close to the towers, most of their signal is going over your head. Likely what you are picking up is a reflection. Try aiming your antenna in different directions away from the tower and see if you can pick up a reflected signal that will work better for you than the direct signal. There is a good chance that a reflection will give you a better signal.


----------



## rtatman

Hello, I'm recently trying to figure all this antenna stuff out. I live in Chico, CA, zip code 95926. My first buy was a Terk TV44 antenna. It actually worked a lot better than I thought. It picked up everything locally in digital. My only problem was that ABC was out of Redding, about 72 miles away and that's the only channel in my area in HD. I could get that channel most of the time, usually 60%70% strength. So then I went to Solid Signal because I figured I needed something that was a step up. They recommended the Winegard SS-2000. I got that and it was a piece of crap. First my installation instructions from them were wrong and Winegard says I probably blew the amp. Solid Signal has been helpful and they are taking it back. So my question is what will really work best for me? I'm in an apartment but I can put something on the roof, just nothing crazy. I've been thinking about the Terk TV55 or the Channel Master 3000. The other thing is that with the Terk TV44 I got channels out of Sacramento in analog. So like I said, the TV44 was pretty decent. I just want a little extra boost so the ABC signal stays constant. Can anyone help me out?


Thanks.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Running the rotator wire is the biggest issue. Installing the rotator itself is just a matter of getting up there to do it and getting another short piece of mast.
> 
> 
> If you really think you'll add a rotator later, run the rotator wire now. The CM model uses a 3-conductor wire. It wouldn't hurt to run 5 or even 6 conductor wire in case you want a heavy-duty rotator at some point.




Did Winegard ever produce the rotor that ran off the coax cable, that it claimed it was about to introduce a year or two ago?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rtatman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just want a little extra boost so the ABC signal stays constant. Can anyone help me out?



72 miles is pushing things for most people, but KRCR has a very tall antenna tower (or they're on a really big mountain) so you're within range. I'd look into either the Channel Master 4228 or 4221, depending on which one you think the apartment complex will approve. Either of those on your roof should beat your Terk.


----------



## ericdwong




ericdwong said:


> Ive posted this before but sometime next month I will pull the trigger on this project, it is hot as blazes out and I have too many other projects to worry about so here is my final planning. I'm told that my antennas are too close to one another, which they most likely are. The setup you see is a Channel Master VHF only at the bottom (forgot the model), the Channel Master 8 foot parabolic. I didnt put up a preamp last time and am regretting it for UHF.
> 
> 
> So Im thinking of changing the setup. Rather then 3 seperate antennas that are too close together, one that is too low, and some that are not facing the same direction, 2 of them run thru a lossy UHF/VHF combiner, I'm thinking of using one giant antenna, such as Winegards' HD8200P. I like that unit because it has a 75 ohm output, so I wont have to use lossy transformers. Then I would use something like a Channel Master 7777 preamp, to boost the signal as it will be split a few times. That antenna is 15 feet long, but I would be able to get that single antenna as high as possible, rather then one up high, one middle and one low, and not have to worry about antennas interfering with one another.
> 
> 
> What do you all think? I know that channel master parabolic one which isn't made anymore is one of the highest gain UHF ones available, but I'd like to try something new. Apparently its front/back ratio isnt that good for Digital TV reception. Not only that, you can see how one of the pictures, the "focus" of the parabolic part does not line up with the elements. One giant antenna would seem to alleviate alot of these concerns. I'll also most likely try to elevate the antenna even higher and then double up on the guy wire.


----------



## AntAltMike

A zip code would help.


Chances are, your parabolic UHF is no longer outperformiong large Yagis because of the physical deterioration of its reflector.


If you don't need analog, then you won't need an antenna for channels 2-6, since Baltimore 2 and Washington 4 and 5 will not be in the lowband after the transition is over. You would be best served by some comnination of a large UHF and VHF highband, or possibly by fixing two VHFs pointed at two markets and having just the UHF on the rotor. It really depends on your exact reception situation.


----------



## ericdwong




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A zip code would help.
> 
> 
> Chances are, your parabolic UHF is no longer outperformiong large Yagis because of the physical deterioration of its reflector.
> 
> 
> If you don't need analog, then you won't need an antenna for channels 2-6, since Baltimore 2 and Washington 4 and 5 will not be in the lowband after the transition is over. You would be best served by some comnination of a large UHF and VHF highband, or possibly by fixing two VHFs pointed at two markets and having just the UHF on the rotor. It really depends on your exact reception situation.




21047 is the zipcode. I primarily get the Baltimore stations but I would like to reel in DC and also Philadelphia. I would be using DTV, as well as analog UHF and VHF as well as FM radio. So, I would like to get as much off of analog and digital as possible (Im a nut). I liked the idea of using one large yagi, like the a-forementioned Winegard, cause it will be cheaper in the end, with less transformers and wires, and I can get "the whole package" up high rather then one at the top and then others down below. I thought about multiple fixed antennas as well, but I'd prefer the rotator method.


I should mention I am behind a hill, so that complicates things.


----------



## Art L.

I have a Mit. WS5571. I am using a standard old antenna to obtain OTA HD signal. I get all of the HD channel and the pictures look great. However, the top and botton portions of the picture are cut off - the picture does not fit - vertically - in the TV screen. I called for TV repair service thinking that the Mit. needs some type of vertical adjustment to squeeze the picture down in order to fit in TV screen. The repair person told me not to waste a service call because the problem is with the antenna. He said I should probably get a new HD antenna. This did not sound right to me. I thought that I either "get" HD reception, which I do - or I "don't get" the reception. I did not realize the an antenna could determine the size of the picture I am receiving. Can some clarify this for me.



Thank you.


Art


----------



## spikeit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When you are that close, you obviously have TOO much signal strength.
> 
> The last thing you want to do is use an amplified antenna, like the Sensar III.
> 
> 
> So if you intend using an outdoor antenna (which should minimize multipath), then it must be unamplified.
> 
> Even then you'll probably still have TOO much signal strength and may need to insert
> 
> a $10 Variable RF Attenuator (Radio Shack 15-678) prior to the antenna input on your TV.
> 
> 
> Leakage into the long downlead cable can also result in multipath interference.
> 
> Double or Quad shielded cable can help reduce this problem.
> 
> 
> Instead of outdoors, you may want to try using an indoor antenna (thereby eliminating the long downlead),
> 
> but you may still need the Variable RF Attenuator to reduce the signal strength.
> 
> 
> You might want to try the Terk HDTVi (with rabbit ears for VHF) or the Silver Sensor (without),
> 
> since they are directional and can provide significant multipath reduction.
> 
> You might also want to try a cheap clipon bowtie or loop/rabbit ear type antenna,
> 
> esp if you just happen to have one in the house. Just make sure it's unamplified.




So the Terk HDTVs amplified outdoor antenna would be too much? From the specs it says that this antenna is great to catch reflections so one would think this would work well.... confused... I've tried an indoor bowtie antenna and get nothing. Thanks again for your replies!


R


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ericdwong* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I liked the idea of using one large yagi, like the a-forementioned Winegard, cause it will be cheaper in the end, with less transformers and wires, and I can get "the whole package" up high rather then one at the top and then others down below. I thought about multiple fixed antennas as well, but I'd prefer the rotator method.



Well, there is no magic device. The 8200P does have a 75-Ohm download, but that's because the balun is built-in to begin with. And it combines the VHF and UHF signals in that little box, as well. You do gain the lack of connector loss, but that's minimal and probably not worth worrying about.


So, a Channel Master 7777 with separate inputs isn't costing you anything, two baluns won't be any different, and the last item, height, isn't as much of a factor for VHF - you could drop it by 6' and still be on the same wavelength for a lot of it.


The bulkiest part of the 8200P is the lo-VHF section (and it's reflector) which you don't need. Other than a neat "all-in-one" package, you aren't getting much. I had the 8200P and replaced it with an AntennasDirect 91XG and I can tell you the 91XG is significantly better for UHF.


----------



## Eben




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Art L.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a Mit. WS5571. I am using a standard old antenna to obtain OTA HD signal. I get all of the HD channel and the pictures look great. However, the top and botton portions of the picture are cut off - the picture does not fit - vertically - in the TV screen. I called for TV repair service thinking that the Mit. needs some type of vertical adjustment to squeeze the picture down in order to fit in TV screen. The repair person told me not to waste a service call because the problem is with the antenna. He said I should probably get a new HD antenna. This did not sound right to me. I thought that I either "get" HD reception, which I do - or I "don't get" the reception. I did not realize the an antenna could determine the size of the picture I am receiving. Can some clarify this for me.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> 
> Art



The repair person is full of it. Are you sure the TV display mode (or your HDTV set-top box) is set correctly (on my Toshiba for full-screen HDTV I set the TV's aspect ratio to "natural" - also, I set my STB to "native," which sends the video through at the resolution in which it was broadcast (1080i or 720p)). Another possibility could be the TV's overscanning, or the vertical/horizontal need adjusting.


----------



## Art L.

My TV is set correctly. The HD tuner is built into the TV. I cannot change the screen format on the "ANT-DTV" input. When I try to change it - a message comes on the screen indicating that the HD format cannot be changed.


----------



## Neil L

Art,

Sure looks like you TV is set to zoom a 4x3 picture to fill the 16x9 screen, thus cutting off the top and bottom of the picture. Very likely the channels you are viewing are not showing HDTV at the time. They are probably showing SD digital, and your TV should be set to display SD pillar boxed, so you won't loose any of the picture.


Still, the antenna has absolutely no effect on the way your TV displays different aspect ratio material.


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *spikeit* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So the Terk HDTVs amplified outdoor antenna would be too much? From the specs it says that this antenna is great to catch reflections so one would think this would work well.... confused... I've tried an indoor bowtie antenna and get nothing. Thanks again for your replies!
> 
> 
> R



R

The folks who were talking to you about signal nulls weren't too far off the mark. If it is just one tower and you are about a mile away, typically there is not much signal there. If there is any, it tends to be clustered in rings around the tower as you move outward from the base. You good be in a ring that has too much signal, as one poster said, and could easily overdrive an amplified antenna. On the other hand, you could be in an area with no signal (a null) and really be fighting for any signal what so ever. One of my guys lives four miles from our tower and is in the null of a couple of the local stations.


Unless your TV stations' tower was built right in a city, broadcasters don't tend to put much signal downward. For instance, most of the Houston towers sere put up in the early 80's out in an area that used to be rice fields. No one lived anywhere near the towers, so most stations ignored the null fill option (downward signal) so that they could put more power out at the horizon. Twenty years later developments surround the tower farm on two sides, with a third growing in towards us daily. Many home owners here are exactly in your situation.


When folks on this forum talk about an indoor bowtie, they tent to mean something like the attached picture. For this to work, you may need to get it near a window and play around a little, like pointing it upwards besides back & forth. Drag the TV over for antenna playtime if you have too because you need to figure out how to get a signal before you can figure out where to place an antenna permanently (and then run the antenna cable over to where you want the Tv to live).


A better antenna would be a 4-bay like a CM4221 and play with it the same way (but hopefully outside). If you do have too much signal with the 4221, you can always use the attic for an attenuator. Use the analog signals while you still can. Too much signal strength tends to put diagonal bars running through the picture and/or a buzz in the sound. Too little signal and you get a snowy picture or no picture at all.


Bob Chase

KHWB-TV


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ericdwong* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 21047 is the zipcode. I primarily get the Baltimore stations but I would like to reel in DC and also Philadelphia. I would be using DTV, as well as analog UHF and VHF as well as FM radio. So, I would like to get as much off of analog and digital as possible (Im a nut). I liked the idea of using one large yagi, like the a-forementioned Winegard, cause it will be cheaper in the end, with less transformers and wires, and I can get "the whole package" up high rather then one at the top and then others down below. I thought about multiple fixed antennas as well, but I'd prefer the rotator method.
> 
> 
> I should mention I am behind a hill, so that complicates things.



Eric


I think the Winegard 8200 antenna comes from the old Winegard 2000 series antenna line. The 2000 series type of baluns tended to get noisy over time due to corrosion of the clips and flexing of the connection in winds. If this antenna is available locally, you might want to check if the balun clips on to a pair of large wires that run parallel to the boom. (Rather than being built like on a Winegard HD7210 or having an external balun like the Channel Master 0089.) If the 8200 is not available locally, you will also have to pay truck freight charges because UPS cannot handle the size of the boom.


An alternate would be the CM 3671. It definitely breaks down for UPS shipping and has an external balun.


I wish we still had our CM parabolic antenna here. It was the only antenna that ever worked well at our transmitter site. We lost it one day in one of those windy rainstorms that folks attach names to.


Bob Chase

KHWB-TV


----------



## beatboy77

What is the best Antenna for an attic? I would like an antenna that will pick-up UHF/VHF/FM. My home is covered in stucco as well. I would like something with around 100 mile range if possible.


~Josh


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Art L.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> However, the top and botton portions of the picture are cut off - the picture does not fit - vertically - in the TV screen. I called for TV repair service thinking that the Mit. needs some type of vertical adjustment to squeeze the picture down in order to fit in TV screen. The repair person told me not to waste a service call because the problem is with the antenna. He said I should probably get a new HD antenna. This did not sound right to me.



The repair person doesn't know what they're talking about.


Assuming you're talking about HD programming (i.e. 16:9) and the top and bottom of the screen are cut off, it's probably a poor setting for overscan. Normally, this can only be corrected in the service menus. I don't recommend you mess with service menu settings unless you A) know what you're doing or B) are willing to pay somebody to fix what you mess up. It is possible to do permanent damage to your television in the service menus (which may explain why they are not in the 'user menus.')


Either find a more qualified repair service, or look into having your set calibrated by an ISF certified technician. If you haven't used a DVD like Video Essentials to calibrate your set, the ISF call will be well worth the money - they can optimize your set far better than how it came out of the box. Colors will be truer, the picture might be sharper and clearer, and they can certainly fix overscan issues correctly.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *beatboy77* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What is the best Antenna for an attic? I would like an antenna that will pick-up UHF/VHF/FM. My home is covered in stucco as well. I would like something with around 100 mile range if possible.



For UHF, the best attic antenna is the Channel Master 4228. It doesn't have a 100 mile range, though, as no UHF signal has that kind of range under "normal" conditions. For transmitters that are very high, though, that kind of reach is possible, but you need line-of-sight and few people have line-of-sight for 100 miles.


For VHF, the biggest antenna you can fit in your attic is the best one. These can reach 100 miles (or more) but it can be hard to predict.


Regardless, the stucco in your house will block any signals (UHF or VHF) and that will make things hard. Depending on your roofing materials, you'll lose a lot of signal before it ever gets near your antenna.


As always, you can try an attic install, but they are never "recommended" and success is more of a dice roll than a certainty. Outdoor installs, and higher rather than lower, have a much higher rate of success.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If this antenna is available locally, you might want to check if the balun clips on to a pair of large wires that run parallel to the boom.



This is how my HD7084 worked - but the entire thing was enclosed in a plastic box that looked weather tight, which may have eliminated the corrosion issue.


----------



## AntAltMike

The Winegard 70XX antennas use the 75 ohm cartridges that are perfectly weatherproof.


The Winegard Prostar antennas are 300 ohm antennas that use industry-standard, 10-32 screw terminals to attach the balun. I've never known them to get noisy over time, but then, I don't think I've ever had the means to tell if their performance had deteriorated by some small increment.


The PR series antennas typically cost maybe $20 to $40 less than do physically comparable, Chromstar 70XX antennas. As long as you use an "outdoor" balun, which costs about $.50 to $1.00 more than does an indoor balun but which is usually shipped free with the antenna, you might be happier saving the $20 to $40. You can even put a tiny blob of "coax seal" where the two wires go into the plastic housing, or you can smother it in electrical tape.


----------



## ericdwong




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, there is no magic device. The 8200P does have a 75-Ohm download, but that's because the balun is built-in to begin with. And it combines the VHF and UHF signals in that little box, as well. You do gain the lack of connector loss, but that's minimal and probably not worth worrying about.
> 
> 
> So, a Channel Master 7777 with separate inputs isn't costing you anything, two baluns won't be any different, and the last item, height, isn't as much of a factor for VHF - you could drop it by 6' and still be on the same wavelength for a lot of it.
> 
> 
> The bulkiest part of the 8200P is the lo-VHF section (and it's reflector) which you don't need. Other than a neat "all-in-one" package, you aren't getting much. I had the 8200P and replaced it with an AntennasDirect 91XG and I can tell you the 91XG is significantly better for UHF.




Interesting. Now that you mention it, I may actually keep the setup I have. As it is right now I get usually high 80-90% reception (as indicated on my Dish 811 HDTV receiver) on the Baltimore DTV stations and thats with no preamp.



I will rent a cherry picker so I can service the stack. I need to weld 2 of the poles together because the slip joint slips in the wind, the whole stack moves. I will also put on the CM 7777 preamp/amp to help drive the signal better. Also need to realign the antennas since the VHF is slight misaligned when we put the stack up (using the drag it on the roof method). And realign the parabolic one since the center element is slightly off center.


My other goal is to get the antennas spaced further apart. Id like to put another 5 foot section on to raise up the FM unit and space out the UHF from the VHF. Hope it can take the load.


I wonder if there is any sort of rehash kit for the CM parabolic, replacing its reflectors etc. I may also try the "wire mesh" mod to increase the front/back ratio.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Eric
> 
> 
> I think the Winegard 8200 antenna comes from the old Winegard 2000 series antenna line. The 2000 series type of baluns tended to get noisy over time due to corrosion of the clips and flexing of the connection in winds. If this antenna is available locally, you might want to check if the balun clips on to a pair of large wires that run parallel to the boom. (Rather than being built like on a Winegard HD7210 or having an external balun like the Channel Master 0089.) If the 8200 is not available locally, you will also have to pay truck freight charges because UPS cannot handle the size of the boom.
> 
> 
> An alternate would be the CM 3671. It definitely breaks down for UPS shipping and has an external balun.
> 
> 
> I wish we still had our CM parabolic antenna here. It was the only antenna that ever worked well at our transmitter site. We lost it one day in one of those windy rainstorms that folks attach names to.
> 
> 
> Bob Chase
> 
> KHWB-TV



I didnt realize the parabolics were still in demand from enthusiasts. It is sure ugly, but I guess it work well. I heard CM discontinued it because they tossed the tool to make it.


----------



## Art L.

Thank for the suggestion. Is possible for some programs to fit within the screen, on a vertical basis, while others do not. For example I was watching Fox's NFL football last night and there was no top/bottom cutoff. I have noticed that with ABC sporting programs in HD that I get the cutoff.


----------



## August West




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Art L.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thank for the suggestion. Is possible for some programs to fit within the screen, on a vertical basis, while others do not. For example I was watching Fox's NFL football last night and there was no top/bottom cutoff. I have noticed that with ABC sporting programs in HD that I get the cutoff.



I think this is the TV. My Mits DLP, for example, has about 8 or so "zoom" type modes for SD signals but only 2 for HD viewing ("standard" and "wide expand"). I'm guessing that you have your zoom mode set "properly" for your SD signals but your HD viewing is set with some kind of zoom.


Can you bring your signal in via a different input? On the DLP I do not use the DTV input but rather the coax ANT inputs ANT-1 for cable and ANT-2 for OTA. I assume your Mits is a CRT and it may be different than my Mits DLP in this respect.


----------



## twaller

How is the gain on the XG91 for Hi VHF? I am pleased with my XG91 for UHF, but after the analog shut off.....whenever that really may be......2 of my stations will revert back to their analog assignments. Namely ch. 12 and ch. 10. Will this antenna suffice?


----------



## bernieoc

I have a RS vu190xr vhf/uhf antenna with CM7777 that is ok for UHF from two locations 30 degrees apart. One is 47 miles and the other 23 miles. By careful pointing (seasonal because of trees) most are acceptable except a PBS on ch 3 (47 miles).

Question 1 - would a dedicated low VHF(antennasdirect V4) be better than the RS combo for ch 3?

Question 2 - If I do the low VHF for ch3 what would be a good UHF antenna to replace the RS combo antenna and span the 30 degree spread (without a rotor). I would run both into the cm7777.

Question 3 - One of the UHF channels will revert to ch 13 which I hope a UHF antenna will be able to pick up?

The number of variables make the decision difficult - any guidance would be appreciated.

Bernieoc


----------



## rtatman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 72 miles is pushing things for most people, but KRCR has a very tall antenna tower (or they're on a really big mountain) so you're within range. I'd look into either the Channel Master 4228 or 4221, depending on which one you think the apartment complex will approve. Either of those on your roof should beat your Terk.




Thanks for the reply on this. I wasn't quite ready to go with one of those because those are fairly big and noticeable. When I bought my Terk TV44 the guy at Solid Signal told me those are basically just a pair of rabbit ears on the roof. With that I got Digital NBC, CBS, and Fox all above 80%, and ABC above 60%, but it went out sometimes. I got all of these in Analog and also got CBS and ABC out of Sacramento in Analog. After that I bought the SS-2000 and it only got two stations in digital and the signal was 49% so it really didn't get them because I never saw a picture. Also didn't get the Analog out of Sacramento. So today I went to Sears and bought the Terk TV55 because Sears has a 30 day money back guarantee. I've installed that up on my roof and now that is doing the same thing as the SS-2000. If the Terk TV44 is just a set of rabbit ears on the roof why is it beating everything else by far. I have no obstructions anywhere around me. I feel like I've pointed that thing every direction. Before I take this back on Monday does anyone have any ideas on anything I can do to make this work. Why doesn't anything work better than the Terk TV44? This is really frustrating. Even the guy at Winegard told me it made no sense with my SS-2000. Solid Signal is taking that back because the Winegard guy says it must be defective. My next step is to buy the Channel Master recommended to me on here, but I'd like to hold off. Once again, zip is 95926. Please help me! Thanks.


----------



## pdawg17

I have a sloped roof (not extreme)...I wanted to mount my 4228 with a wall mount instead but the eaves on my house are >12" (that's all Ratshack had was 12" and I don't want to buy online unless I have to)...I want to mount it near the edge of one roof (best reception there) and don't know what kind of mount to use...I don't have a chimney so that's out too...what works for a sloped roof?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *twaller* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How is the gain on the XG91 for Hi VHF? I am pleased with my XG91 for UHF, but after the analog shut off.....whenever that really may be......2 of my stations will revert back to their analog assignments. Namely ch. 12 and ch. 10. Will this antenna suffice?



Um... why don't you try tuning to channels 10 and 12 with an analog tuner and see how the picture looks? That should give you a good idea how clean the signal is.


I get very good results with the 91XG for a channel 10 within 30 miles of me, but the best results are "off-axis" meaning I have to aim the antenna a little to the right or left (like 35-60 degrees) to get the best reception.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rtatman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Before I take this back on Monday does anyone have any ideas on anything I can do to make this work. Why doesn't anything work better than the Terk TV44? This is really frustrating.



Of those antennas, the Terk TV44 is the closest to a "normal" antenna design, which is probably why it works the best. The Winegard SS2000 is really designed for urban locations - reception inside of 20-30 miles. For long distance, it's not very good. The TV55 is a "gimmick" antenna - they rarely work well for anybody.


You could try something like the DB2 from AntennasDirect. It's fairly small (about the size of the SS2000) and performs very well for its size.


Your frustration comes from trying to do everything "wrong" and not getting great results. You probably need a standard designed, fairly large antenna to get many of the stations you're after. You're trying to make do with something much smaller, and when it comes to reception size does matter. The 4221 isn't very big - 2' x 4', and the 4228 is only 4'x4', which is small compared to the 15' long (by 10' wide) antenna I used to have on top of my 54' tower. But when you're trying to hide something on your roof, any of these antennas may be too big.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pdawg17* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a sloped roof (not extreme)...I wanted to mount my 4228 with a wall mount instead but the eaves on my house are >12" (that's all Ratshack had was 12" and I don't want to buy online unless I have to)...I want to mount it near the edge of one roof (best reception there) and don't know what kind of mount to use...I don't have a chimney so that's out too...what works for a sloped roof?



I'd try the "guy wire" tripod. Basically, cut the bottom of your mast to match the slope of your roof, either attach a guy wire ring or, if you're using a rotor, use that, and attach guy wires in three directions (120 degrees apart from each other) to your roof. Word to the wise - Radio Shack guy wires don't hold up to the elements. They'll rust in a hurry. Get your guy wires at a hardware store.


----------



## pdawg17




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'd try the "guy wire" tripod. Basically, cut the bottom of your mast to match the slope of your roof, either attach a guy wire ring or, if you're using a rotor, use that, and attach guy wires in three directions (120 degrees apart from each other) to your roof. Word to the wise - Radio Shack guy wires don't hold up to the elements. They'll rust in a hurry. Get your guy wires at a hardware store.



So cut the mast, not the legs? I'm not a big "tool guy", so what would I cut the mast with? It's a 5' ratshack mast...thanks...


----------



## AntAltMike

Somebody (probably Rohn) makes a sort-of-tripod where there are two legs 120 degrees apart, and a third leg, which is actually a five foot mast, goes through the ring that the two legs are hinged to, and the five foot leg has its own swiveling base plate so that it can be set vertically.


My preference is to just mount a tripod on the side of the roof and then have the mast miss the lower tripod support and attach directly to the roof. I either attach a swivel bracket there, or if I don't have one, I smash the last six inches or so of the mast flat, bend it a little, and drill two holes in it so I can bolt it to the roof.


But if I ever were trying to do a nice job, I'd probably cut one leg of the tripod.


----------



## pdawg17




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Somebody (probably Rohn) makes a sort-of-tripod where there are two legs 120 degrees apart, and a third leg, which is actually a five foot mast, goes through the ring that the two legs are hinged to, and the five foot leg has its own swiveling base plate so that it can be set vertically.
> 
> 
> My preference is to just mount a tripod on the side of the roof and then have the mast miss the lower tripod support and attach directly to the roof. I either attach a swivel bracket there, or if I don't have one, I smash the last six inches or so of the mast flat, bend it a little, and drill two holes in it so I can bolt it to the roof.
> 
> 
> But if I ever were trying to do a nice job, I'd probably cut one leg of the tripod.



Thanks for the idea...I just don't know what to use to cut the tripod leg...I'd probably just get the ratshack one...


----------



## AntAltMike

You can buy a cheap hacksaw for $3, but realistically, if you were not aware of that, then you probably do not have enough familiarity with hand tools to productively endeavor such a modification.


----------



## pdawg17




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You can buy a cheap hacksaw for $3, but realistically, if you were not aware of that, then you probably do not have enough familiarity with hand tools to productively endeavor such a modification.



Actually, I've done a decent handful of things...I've just never had the need to cut metal piping before


----------



## Tommy714

Is there a web site where i can find all the Tv stations within 100 to 150 miles to where I live?


----------



## greywolf

Tommy714,

http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp 


Be sure when you locate your longitude you insert it as a negative number.


----------



## R-U-Q-R-U




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Originally posted by mgtr
> 
> Heres the problem. I live about 50 miles from the digital antenna farm in Bithlo, Fla. They are NNE from me, and there is reasonably open terrain in front of my antenna. In order to semi-appease the HOA fuddy-duddies, I am using an eave mounted Winegard Square shooter in conjunction with a CM 7777 preamp driving about 75 feet of RG-6 in to an RCA D* HD receiver (excellent receiver, in my opinion). So, I get all the OTA channels flawlessly (85-100% signal strength) except NBC, which is the only VHF signal (channel 11). I don't even get a whiff of the channel on the signal strength meter. And yes, the switches are set correctly inside the 7777 (as shipped) to combine UHF and VHF.
> 
> As market #20, I would assume that in the next year or so D* will be providing me LiL channels, so I don't want to start changing antennas, etc. It just seems remarkable that I have no problems with any of the UHF channels, but get nothing at all on the only VHF channel.
> 
> Any thoughts on this strange problem?
> 
> 
> Not very strange at all considering the Squareshooter's poor performance on VHF. See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html . It has around -21db gain at channel 11.



The review in this link does not make it clear if this for the unamplified SS1000 or the amplified SS2000. Do you know which? I am 23 miles from Bithlo and get WESH with 89% signal in an E* 811 and get maximum signal on the Samsung SIR-T451.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *R-U-Q-R-U* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The review in this link does not make it clear if this for the unamplified SS1000 or the amplified SS2000. Do you know which? I am 23 miles from Bithlo and get WESH with 89% signal in an E* 811 and get maximum signal on the Samsung SIR-T451.



The graph holds for either version. The amplifier won't change the characteristics of the antenna itself assuming it's a wideband amp. The point was that the squareshooter is poor at vhf frequencies.


It's weird how my moniker ended up in your quote.


----------



## R-U-Q-R-U




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The graph holds for either version. The amplifier won't change the characteristics of the antenna itself assuming it's a wideband amp. The point was that the squareshooter is poor at vhf frequencies.
> 
> 
> It's weird how my moniker ended up in your quote.




Thanks...I really don't know much about antenna theory but my SS2000 works so I guess that is all I need to know










As for the moniker, I cut and past and old post about this antenna...


----------



## Tanzanite

I am a newbie to OTA stuff. Few questions.


Does ghosting appear due to multipath problem?

Do only analog channels experience multipath problem?

If I had an omnidirectional antenna will it also deal with multipath problem? or does it just deal with changing the antenna direction often?

Would a DTV channel just not work under a multipath situation, or does it depend on the antenna?

Are there antennas that are immune to multipath problem?


Maybe too many questions. Help!


----------



## Tommy714

How far away can i pick up station in So FL.


----------



## Ruidh




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tanzanite* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does ghosting appear due to multipath problem?



Yes in analog. No in digital.



> Quote:
> Do only analog channels experience multipath problem?



No. Digital TV is somewhat more resistant because its UHF, but multipath can still lead to dropouts and difficulty tuning a channel.



> Quote:
> If I had an omnidirectional antenna will it also deal with multipath problem? or does it just deal with changing the antenna direction often?
> 
> Would a DTV channel just not work under a multipath situation, or does it depend on the antenna?



Multipath is a function of geometry. The location where your antenna sits can be reached by multiple paths from the antenna due to reflections. If the legths of these paths are different enough, the signal will interferte with itself.


A directional antenna can often cut down or reduce multipath because it's sensitive in the direction its pointed. If all your DTV stations are on the same antenna, you don't need a gadget to change the direction of the antenna.



> Quote:
> Are there antennas that are immune to multipath problem?



It's a geometry problem, not an antenna problem.


----------



## dapercy

Winegard Antenna isn't picking up 2 of the major networks when I live 2.7 miles from the TV antennas on top of a mountain just south of Phoenix. I'm not sure of the exact model that I have, but I think it might be a GS200A (Direct TV left no literature on the antenna). I'm using a H10 receiver as the tuner. The antenna appears to be pointed towards the mountain with the word Winegard facing the antennas, but the blades that stick out from each side are tilted downwards?


I didn't find anything on the winegard website about positioning the antenna or troubleshooting issues. Any help anyone could provide will be much appreciated.


If necessary would I do better to buy an in-home multi-directional antenna? I just can't figure out how this antenna isn't working when I'm so close to the towers.


----------



## russellps

Ok, I need some help. I live northwest of my local Baltimore antenna broadcast arrays. All the digital stations I want to capture (FOX, NBC, CBS, ABC, UPN...ok I don't care about UPN) are located at the same compass bearing and the same distance (161 degrees, 22 miles away). I haven't seen the antennas but I assume they are all part of the same antenna farm.


I have a Terk HDTVi indoor antenna (its a Silver Sensor copy) hooked up to an E* 811 HD receiver. I get CBS, NBC, ABC, and UPN all at around 80%-85% signal strength but FOX is a problem. I can get a signal for a few moments at 85%, then it drops to 50% and I lose the feed. I'll adjust the antenna a few degrees and pick up the signal again but after maybe 30 seconds or so, I'll lose it once more. Someone in my local reception thread mentioned this is likely a multipath problem but I understand that the FOX feed (45.1) and the UPN feed (54.1) come from the same antenna. Is it possible that one is 'multipathing' and the other isn't? Or is it more likely a signal strength issue?


Any recommendations on what I can do outside of mounting a CM 4221 on my roof? That's not really worth it just to get FOX (though I will miss NFC games in HD!). Maybe I will have better luck with the Silver Sensor instead of the Terk. Has anyone compared the two?


----------



## jdougjones

Sounds like multipath and not a strength issue. I have exact same problem in Raleigh. FOX is one of my strongest stations, but least reliable from what appears to be a multipath problem. My next step would be to put a Yagi antenna on the roof, but who knows if even that would fix it. (I have a CM4228 in the attic).


Have you experimented with the placement of your antenna? It sounds like you have it sitting in the room with your receiver? Some things to try: get it close to a window that has an unobstructed view in the direction of the tower, raise it higher (all the way to the attic or above if possible) or even move it around in the room some to try and get it out of the path of whatever signal is causing the interference.


I don't think you should spend money on a Silver Sensor. The Terk HDTVi looks like it's basically the same thing.


----------



## greywolf

Looks and performance are entirely different. Terk is big on looks. Even so, indoor antennas can be very sensitive to placement and direction and that seems to be the problem in this case rather than design.


----------



## russellps




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jdougjones* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sounds like multipath and not a strength issue. I have exact same problem in Raleigh. FOX is one of my strongest stations, but least reliable from what appears to be a multipath problem. My next step would be to put a Yagi antenna on the roof, but who knows if even that would fix it. (I have a CM4228 in the attic).
> 
> 
> Have you experimented with the placement of your antenna? It sounds like you have it sitting in the room with your receiver? Some things to try: get it close to a window that has an unobstructed view in the direction of the tower, raise it higher (all the way to the attic or above if possible) or even move it around in the room some to try and get it out of the path of whatever signal is causing the interference.
> 
> 
> I don't think you should spend money on a Silver Sensor. The Terk HDTVi looks like it's basically the same thing.



Yeah, i've tried moving the antenna around. I got a better signal in a less aesthetically appealing location (my coffe table!) but WAF dictates the antenna be less obtrusive. Why she can't be happy with my gadgets laying all over the place, I will never know.


I just can't imagine that two signals coming from the same broadcast tower get to my house in a different fashion. But then again, the more I read about UHF signal reception, the more unpredictable it seems.


----------



## russellps




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greywolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Looks and performance are entirely different. Terk is big on looks. Even so, indoor antennas can be very sensitive to placement and direction and that seems to be the problem in this case rather than design.



Personally, I don't think the Terk looks any better than the Silver Sensor and if the Sears store I bought it at had the SS at the time, I would have bought it first. I've been reading a lot of comparisons between the two and (big surprise) most folks say the SS outperforms the Terk. I'm still in the 30 day return window so maybe I'll try to swap it out. Thanks for the responses guys, I'll be sure to post my results.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dapercy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Winegard Antenna isn't picking up 2 of the major networks when I live 2.7 miles from the TV antennas on top of a mountain just south of Phoenix. I'm not sure of the exact model that I have, but I think it might be a GS200A (Direct TV left no literature on the antenna). I'm using a H10 receiver as the tuner. The antenna appears to be pointed towards the mountain with the word Winegard facing the antennas, but the blades that stick out from each side are tilted downwards?
> 
> 
> I didn't find anything on the winegard website about positioning the antenna or troubleshooting issues. Any help anyone could provide will be much appreciated.
> 
> 
> If necessary would I do better to buy an in-home multi-directional antenna? I just can't figure out how this antenna isn't working when I'm so close to the towers.



What's a GS200A? Perhaps you mean the Winegard GS2000 Sensar III antenna? (Or maybe the similiar GS22VRD or GS22VPS?)
http://www.winegard.com/offair/sensar.htm#gs 


The GS2000 have an internal amplifier, which would be severely overloaded that close to the transmitter towers.

If that's what your installer gave you, he made a BIG mistake.

So have him replace it (for free) with something that doesn't have an amplifier.


Although it doesn't explain which way to "point" the antenna, here is manual for GS-1000 (unamplified) and GS-2000 (amplified):
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/GS-1100.pdf 


Sounds like you have it "pointed" correctly, with the Winegard label towards the towers...like a bat flying towards them.

Since it is bi-directional, it also works with the bat flying away from the towers....


FYI: Here is link for all Winegard Manuals:
http://www.winegard.com/manuals.htm


----------



## greywolf

Russellps,


I too believe the SvS is a better antenna. From the description of the problem though, the Terk would appear to be good enough if you find a better spot. Since you've added other considerations, by all means, try the SvS. I'd get one from a place that takes returns though as location can be a much bigger factor than antenna performance.


----------



## dapercy

holl_ands


Thanks for all of the information. The installer left no documentation. I'm buying an extension ladder so I can get up on the roof and find out exactly what type of Winegard it is. Although there is a sticker that says amplified on it, but the only cable that appears to be there to hook to the amplifier appears to have been cut. I'm going to try to reposition it in the next week to see if I can get it to outperform the RCA ANT401 I picked up for 20 which gets 5 more channels. We'll see.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *russellps* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just can't imagine that two signals coming from the same broadcast tower get to my house in a different fashion. But then again, the more I read about UHF signal reception, the more unpredictable it seems.



Well.... Some (like AltAntMike) are very good at making predictions. Most of us aren't as experienced, smart, or trained. Still, every frequency travels differently, and multipath can be *very* frequency specific.


I assume you have an attic or a top shelf in a closet somewhere in your home. I'd get that antenna up as high as you can, as close to the direction of the towers as is possible.


The Terk HDTVi has been tested and found to be approximately equal to the Silver Sensor. If you replace the HDTVi, the best choice would be something like the Channel Master 4149 (see here http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm ) or the AntennasDirect DB2. If you can get into your attic, the Channel Master 3021 has worked wonders for many people. If it would fit, the 4228 is even better.


----------



## bunkers

I have some powerlines in my line of sight, but probably 1/4 mile away. They generally cross the direction I would need to point when pointing an OTA HD antenna towards downtown denver. Does anyone know if there is anything special I need to do, or just try it and find out ?!


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Somebody (probably Rohn) makes a sort-of-tripod where there are two legs 120 degrees apart, and a third leg, which is actually a five foot mast, goes through the ring that the two legs are hinged to, and the five foot leg has its own swiveling base plate so that it can be set vertically.
> 
> 
> My preference is to just mount a tripod on the side of the roof and then have the mast miss the lower tripod support and attach directly to the roof. I either attach a swivel bracket there, or if I don't have one, I smash the last six inches or so of the mast flat, bend it a little, and drill two holes in it so I can bolt it to the roof.
> 
> 
> But if I ever were trying to do a nice job, I'd probably cut one leg of the tripod.



Mike,


Is this what you were looking for?

http://www.ronard.com/unitripod.html 
http://www.ronard.com/ronniedbs3.html 


Bob Chase


----------



## kevin75

SUCCESS!!! well sort of...


i finally got my xg91 up today and am having some success. the only problem though is when i scan the signal strength i am only getting around 60 or so. i only have the antenna about 15 ft. or so. would raising the mast help out with the signal strength?


also, i was kinda guessing on the exact angle of how it should be. i don't have a compass to guide off of. does it make a huge difference if the antenna is not pointing exactly at the right angle?


thanks.


----------



## ctdish

Power lines at a quarter mile would do very little to the TV signal strength. They might produce some noise. It would be mostly on VHF channels and especially channels 6 and down. John


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Mike,
> 
> 
> Is this what you were looking for?
> 
> http://www.ronard.com/unitripod.html
> http://www.ronard.com/ronniedbs3.html



Yep.


----------



## bmcent1

Hello all,

I've read many posts in this forum and I'm trying to do my best to research this before I just start climbing up on the roof and trying different antennas







.


I live in 21704, Frederick, MD. I am 32-35 miles away from the TV towers in Washington DC. They are all within a 3 degree range so I don't think I'll need a rotor. Baltimore stations are 30 degrees or more away and there's more terrain between us so I'm writing them off for now.


What I am really interested in is getting the major networks from Wash in DTV. I checked antennaweb (neat site!) ... while it lists many/all DC and Baltimore stations for my street address, NONE of them have the DTV check next to them (save PBS in my town) ...










I suppose this comes down to my elevation and terrain between here and there. I'm at about 400 ft above MSL, I could GPS it if needed for more accuracy. Someone on the other side of town, another 5-10 miles away from DC but up on a mountain side gets 20 DTV stations and antennaweb agrees with what they're getting.


Is it possible to exceed the antennaweb estimates with the right hardware? Are there any antennas/pre-amps I can get that should have a good chance of pulling in DTV in this case? I'm not directly behind any hills but I'm not on the highest ground either.


I have a HOA and don't want to offend anyone TOO MUCH, on the other hand, I really want to make OTA DTV work, and I'm willing to put a mast on the roof (2 story home, I don't want to go too crazy with the mast height though).


Can anyone make suggestions about types/models of antennas I should try or am I just out of luck if antennaweb says I don't get DTV?


Thank you so much!!


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevin75* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> does it make a huge difference if the antenna is not pointing exactly at the right angle?



Yes. Well, maybe. OK, depends on a lot of other factors. Even better than a compass, is to watch the signal strength meter as you aim the antenna. Or use an analog channel, and watch for best picture as you aim the antenna. Usually pointing directly at the transmitter will give the best results, but not always.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevin75* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> the only problem though is when i scan the signal strength i am only getting around 60 or so. i only have the antenna about 15 ft. or so. would raising the mast help out with the signal strength?
> 
> 
> also, i was kinda guessing on the exact angle of how it should be. i don't have a compass to guide off of. does it make a huge difference if the antenna is not pointing exactly at the right angle?



Raising an antenna makes a huge difference in signal strength until you either have line of sight to the transmitters or are about 10' above the tree line. A doubling of antenna height (in your case, 30 ft off the ground) would increase gain by about 20db, which is more than the gain of your antenna. A 2-3' change would probably not make a difference.


The 91XG is very directional for distant stations. I find a 2-degree difference makes a world of difference on stations 75 miles away. For stations that are 20 miles away, though, it gets great signals over a 60-degree area. Also, it is more directional on higher frequencies than lower ones.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bmcent1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is it possible to exceed the antennaweb estimates with the right hardware? Are there any antennas/pre-amps I can get that should have a good chance of pulling in DTV in this case? I'm not directly behind any hills but I'm not on the highest ground either.



Possible? You betcha! I'm not supposed to get any DTV signals at my address, according to antennaweb, but I got 3 from my rooftop and a whole slew more with my 54' tower. Generally speaking, if antennaweb predicts you'll get analog UHF stations, you'll be able to get digital UHF stations at the same height and relative power. But you'll need some serious antenna horsepower.


I'd look into the AntennasDirect 91XG. It is a top-notch long-distance performer and a steal for under $100. It's 7'9" long, which isn't big compared to most antennas these days. And you should marry it to the Channel Master 7777 preamplifier. Filter out FM if you're very close (say, within 5 miles) of an FM transmitter before amplifying.


----------



## kevin75

one more possibly dumb question.


right now i have my antenna about 20 ft from a power line although the antenna is pointing in the opposite direction. could the fact that it's by a power line hinder the reception? if i needed to i could probably reset the mast if it would make a difference in my reception.


----------



## krob111

I have an indoor antenna for my HDTV on the first floor of my house. I am lookiing to move it up to my attic in an attempt to improve the signal. Are there any (wireless?) solutions available that would allow me to do this without having to snake a coax cable from the attic down to the first floor where the TV is? Any help is appreciated.


----------



## bmcent1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'd look into the AntennasDirect 91XG. It is a top-notch long-distance performer and a steal for under $100. It's 7'9" long, which isn't big compared to most antennas these days. And you should marry it to the Channel Master 7777 preamplifier. Filter out FM if you're very close (say, within 5 miles) of an FM transmitter before amplifying.



Thank you for the suggestion!


Just a couple follow-up's to anyone with advice: Are there any larger antennas than the 91XG that I should consider?


I have a chimney, but we burn wood all winter long, so I'm guessing the soot/heat wouldn't be good for the antenna and I should go with a mast somewhere else on the roof rather than a chimney mount. Am I on the right track?


Last question... a friend suggested I use a "lightning arrestor". This seems obvious as a grounded antenna above the roof line does seem like a lightning hazzard, and we get some good storms in my area. Will this degrade the signal? What are some good ways to address the lightning issue without negating the benefits of a roof mount?


Thanks again!!


----------



## greywolf

It's an ungrounded antenna that is a lightning hazard. Most people use grounding blocks as they are easy to find. A lightning arrestor goes a step further by using a gas which ionizes in the case of a static electricity buildup and conducts the charge to ground. This protects the elements as well as the mast and boom. The things are hard to find though. Some good info may be seen at http://www.mikeholt.com/documents/gr.../satellite.doc


----------



## chinatti

I just got a new D* HR10-250 installed, including the D* OTA antenna. Good thing I talked the D* CSR into giving me the OTA for free, because it didn't pick up a single OTA channel. It's a Winegard Sensar GS-2VRD, it says "amplified" on the box, and I can see some components inside, but there was no power unit of any kind installed, so I'm guessing there's something missing.


Anyway, Antennaweb reports that I will need a Large Directional w/ preamp (Violet) in my location, Westford, MA, about 25 miles from the Boston towers, all within a few degrees of each other, all UHF. The antenna is mounted on my roof (above 2nd floor), with high trees facing Boston.


So I went over to the local Radio Shack and picked up their $25 40" UHF Yagi (listed as for "Red" locations), fully expecting to take advantage of the 30 day money back guarantee, mainly using this to figure out where I stood, and what my plan of attack should be. So with this antenna, I now get the following stations:


ABC: no digital lock, signal strength bouncing around 0~20

CBS: digital lock, signal strength ~60

NBC: no digital lock, signal strength 0~15

FOX: no digital lock, signal strength 0~15


Also, I plugged in my Analog TV and looked at some UHF stations out of Boston, and I'm basically getting a pretty weak signal (lots of snow, but you can see the picture), but no noticable ghosting, so I'm thinking I have more of a signal strength issue as opposed to multipath.


I'm looking for recommendations as to what to try next. Here are the options I see:


1. Buy a good preamp w/ the RS ant, maybe a channelmaster 7775/7

2. Buy a better antenna (CM 4228, or maybe a CM 4221). I might prefer to mount the 4228 in the attic - I have a window facing Boston, basically at the same level the antenna was mounted on the roof.

3. Buy #1 and #2 together, return the RS antenna.


I guess I'm wondering how much of an improvement I'd get from adding a good preamp vs. getting a better antenna. And I'd prefer the 4221 (smaller, easier to mount, etc), but I wouldn't have a problem with the 4228 *if* I need it, and I'd hate to get the 4221 only to find I need the 4228 - most places won't let you return these things.


Anyone have any gems of wisdom?


Thanks in advance...


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bmcent1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are there any larger antennas than the 91XG that I should consider?
> 
> 
> I have a chimney, but we burn wood all winter long, so I'm guessing the soot/heat wouldn't be good for the antenna and I should go with a mast somewhere else on the roof rather than a chimney mount. Am I on the right track?
> 
> 
> What are some good ways to address the lightning issue without negating the benefits of a roof mount?



There are few antennas larger than the 91XG for UHF reception, and the jury is out as to whether the European imports are better or the same. For the price, you can't do better, and you could spend a lot more and do worse.


IIRC, there's no real harm in being over an active chimney. The heat isn't that great up there, and soot shouldn't impact reception. Figure you might lose a year or two of antenna life if you go with a chimney.


The way to address lightning is to properly ground your antenna (grounding block.) This makes it less attractive to lightning than other nearby objects. You can spend a lot more money, but it isn't going to make it a lot safer. My installer told me they've almost never seen a tower hit by lightning - wind is the only real problem they deal with.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chinatti* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm looking for recommendations as to what to try next. Here are the options I see:
> 
> 
> 1. Buy a good preamp w/ the RS ant, maybe a channelmaster 7775/7
> 
> 2. Buy a better antenna (CM 4228, or maybe a CM 4221). I might prefer to mount the 4228 in the attic - I have a window facing Boston, basically at the same level the antenna was mounted on the roof.
> 
> 3. Buy #1 and #2 together, return the RS antenna.
> 
> 
> I guess I'm wondering how much of an improvement I'd get from adding a good preamp vs. getting a better antenna. And I'd prefer the 4221 (smaller, easier to mount, etc), but I wouldn't have a problem with the 4228 *if* I need it, and I'd hate to get the 4221 only to find I need the 4228 - most places won't let you return these things.
> 
> 
> Anyone have any gems of wisdom?



You're fortunate in that one of the best antenna shops in the country is nearby - Stark Electronics ( www.starkelectronic.com ). They carry both of the Channel Master antennas you list, as well as the preamplifier.


If it was me, I'd return the Radio Shack antenna and buy the 4228 and 7777. You can try the 4228 in your attic both with and without the preamplifier, and if it works without the preamp, you can return the preamp. Otherwise, it's up on the roof you go. Note that the 4228 isn't good for use with a rotor, but you said the stations are all in the same direction, so probably not an issue for you.


Preamplifiers help some, but nothing substitutes for a good antenna at the get-go. The 4228 has a lot of gain compared to the Radio Shack antenna (somewhere in the neighborhood of 6db or 4x as much signal gathering ability.) The 4221 is a good antenna for people who don't have a lot of trees to deal with and are at your distance. I'd say it's probably about 3dB better than the Radio Shack, which doesn't give you nearly as much hope of success. Not to say it wouldn't work, but if you want a slam-dunk solution, the 4228 is the best choice.


----------



## kurtlingle

I just love these forums. Many thanks for everyone sharing their knowlegde!


I have an older style antenna on my roof that is 10+ years old. So the wire running from it to my TV is the dual antenna wire.


1. I would imagine it would be better to run RG-6 from the attenna to my TV, right? Instead of the current wire? It's probably 

2. What do I need to buy to connect the Attenna to the RG-6? I assume there is some gadget similar to take the 2 wires from the antenna and run the RG-6.


Thanks in advance!


----------



## colofan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tommy714* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is there a web site where i can find all the Tv stations within 100 to 150 miles to where I live?



The FCC maintains a database where you put in your longitude and latitude and then the radius in kilometers from that location to show the stations in the area.


This is the link they also provide a lookup based off your address to get the long and lat.


http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio2?x=tvq.html


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kurtlingle* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1. I would imagine it would be better to run RG-6 from the attenna to my TV, right? Instead of the current wire? It's probably
> 
> 2. What do I need to buy to connect the Attenna to the RG-6? I assume there is some gadget similar to take the 2 wires from the antenna and run the RG-6.



1. RG-6 is less prone to interference than 300-Ohm wire. It also doesn't break down in the elements as quickly. You should replace your 10-year old wire, but which you use is up to you.


2. What you need is a balun (balananced/unbalanced) connector. Get one rated for outdoor use. Should cost you about $2.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kurtlingle* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1. I would imagine it would be better to run RG-6 from the attenna to my TV, right? Instead of the current wire? It's probably
> 
> 
> The advice sregener gave is good. I would add that the trade off between 300 ohm twin lead and 75 ohm RG-6 is:
> 
> 
> Twin lead = less signal loss, (due to the baluns mostly, and the cable design), but more noise pick-up.
> 
> 
> RG-6 = fully shielded from noise and interference, with about 3db loss of signal compared to twin lead.
> 
> 
> My setup has about 18" of twin lead from the antenna to the pre-amp, then of course, RG-6 from the pre-amp output into the house. I'm just overly cautious about loosing any signal, because I don't have much to begin with.


----------



## August West




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bmcent1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> I've read many posts in this forum and I'm trying to do my best to research this before I just start climbing up on the roof and trying different antennas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> I live in 21704, Frederick, MD. I am 32-35 miles away from the TV towers in Washington DC. They are all within a 3 degree range so I don't think I'll need a rotor. Baltimore stations are 30 degrees or more away and there's more terrain between us so I'm writing them off for now.
> 
> 
> What I am really interested in is getting the major networks from Wash in DTV. I checked antennaweb (neat site!) ... while it lists many/all DC and Baltimore stations for my street address, NONE of them have the DTV check next to them (save PBS in my town) ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose this comes down to my elevation and terrain between here and there. I'm at about 400 ft above MSL, I could GPS it if needed for more accuracy. Someone on the other side of town, another 5-10 miles away from DC but up on a mountain side gets 20 DTV stations and antennaweb agrees with what they're getting.
> 
> 
> Is it possible to exceed the antennaweb estimates with the right hardware? Are there any antennas/pre-amps I can get that should have a good chance of pulling in DTV in this case? I'm not directly behind any hills but I'm not on the highest ground either.
> 
> 
> I have a HOA and don't want to offend anyone TOO MUCH, on the other hand, I really want to make OTA DTV work, and I'm willing to put a mast on the roof (2 story home, I don't want to go too crazy with the mast height though).
> 
> 
> Can anyone make suggestions about types/models of antennas I should try or am I just out of luck if antennaweb says I don't get DTV?
> 
> 
> Thank you so much!!



You may want to look at the larger Channel Master UHF/VHF combo antennas - maybe the 3020 (one of the deep fringe rated ones).


Relative to doing better than Antennaweb says you should do, I have a CM 3016 that is about a size too small per Antennaweb and in my attic to boot. It is doing pretty well with only slight pixelation with channel 45. VHF is doing well. Given the realtively small dollar differential between a medium directional and a large directional, I would suggest getting the largest you can that the HOA will allow (downside of the 3020 - its something like 12' long)


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *August West* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would suggest getting the largest you can that the HOA will allow....



HOAs cannot restrict terrestrial antenna size. But why get a VHF antenna at this point when it just adds size and bulk and doesn't get him *any* digital signals? Eventually he may want a hi-VHF for channels 7 and 9 when they revert at the analog shutoff, but that's a few years away and a hi-VHF-only antenna would still be much smaller than a VHF antenna that gets channels 2-6.


----------



## August West




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> HOAs cannot restrict terrestrial antenna size. But why get a VHF antenna at this point when it just adds size and bulk and doesn't get him *any* digital signals? Eventually he may want a hi-VHF for channels 7 and 9 when they revert at the analog shutoff, but that's a few years away and a hi-VHF-only antenna would still be much smaller than a VHF antenna that gets channels 2-6.



Maybe I read the original post too quickly. I see that he was not specifically looking to pick up signals (analog and digital) from DC and baltimore, only DTV from DC. I must have been reading into it as I live in the same general area as the original poster and had a desire to pick up analog channel 5 from DC (to get Redskins games not shown on the Baltimore FOX affiliate).


----------



## bmcent1

Thanks for all the feedback!!


I really appreciate your ideas and pointers and I am learning quite a bit just following the conversations in this thread. That is a good point about wanting analog for blacked out games, I hadn't even thought of it and I'll tuck that away in case I need it later. However, at this point my main goal is DTV reception (and HDTV programming) with analog being a very distant second.


Thanks again and I'll keep watching the thread for any replies and for the general information flowing here.

- - -


While I'm posting... can anyone recommend a web site or program that does the following:

- Input your location, lat and lon and possibly antenna height

- Input a TV tower location, lat and lon and height about ground (available from FCC public info)


Then the webapp/program shows you a cross section of the topography between those two points and shows whether or not there is clear line of site...


Has anyone seen anything like that? I actually did it with a program at work but the feature wasn't built in for antenna solutions so it's lacking in details (like line of sight and needs better scale) ... but as a proof of concept, it was pretty slick.


Seems like this could be done with free census maps and GRASS (an open source GIS program) thought it would probably be a lot of work and if something like this already exists, well that would make it easier


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bmcent1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That is a good point about wanting analog for blacked out games, I hadn't even thought of it and I'll tuck that away in case I need it later. However, at this point my main goal is DTV reception (and HDTV programming) with analog being a very distant second.
> 
> 
> While I'm posting... can anyone recommend a web site or program that does the following:
> 
> - Input your location, lat and lon and possibly antenna height
> 
> - Input a TV tower location, lat and lon and height about ground (available from FCC public info)



You wouldn't need analog to beat blackouts. The same game is shown on analog and digital. Thus, if you get WTTG-DT, you'll be seeing the same game as on WTTG-5. I suspect the other poster is trying to bust blackouts of Baltimore games by watching the game from D.C., but IIRC, the blackout radius of both cities extends enough that the other can't show the game if it's blacked out.


There are topographic programs that do what you describe, but the best prices I've seen on them are around $300. You could also do a Longley-Rice calculation using free tools as described here: http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...02.02.05.shtml


----------



## bmcent1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There are topographic programs that do what you describe, but the best prices I've seen on them are around $300. You could also do a Longley-Rice calculation using free tools as described here: http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...02.02.05.shtml



Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!!! The link you provided went to an article describing a program named SPLAT! which runs on Linux and uses Census and USGS data that is freely available... and it blew my mind!










The program does exactly what I wanted, shows terrain profile, line of sight and obstructions, and a beautiful path loss map.


Again, thank you for the reference, SPLAT is very cool.


----------



## rhwimmers

After I got my 4228 and 9/10 setup with the amplifier (its been so long since ive done anything with my anteanna setup, i forget what all I have!)..I set it and forgot it, I got fox in HD and thats pretty much all I wanted. now that football season is about to start I would like to start to find other channels that I can pull...Im in Muncie, IN and get all my HD from indianapolis, about 45 miles and fox is usually at 100%.

My question is whats the best way to scan to see what all channels I can get that are above 80% or so (if thats the number to use..) and also how to tell what channel it is you picked up.

THEN, I would like to write down all the angles for what channels in what cities

FINALLY - is there a program that you can enter in all the channels you can get to see what is on where. Im a packer fan (raisied as a cheesehead) so would like to be able to get as many Packer games as possible..

Thanks for the help

Ross


----------



## RockyF

Try www.antennaweb.org . Just put in your address, and it should give you all the info you want. Also, be sure and look for your local thread here in this section of the forum.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bmcent1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> While I'm posting... can anyone recommend a web site or program that does the following:
> 
> - Input your location, lat and lon and possibly antenna height
> 
> - Input a TV tower location, lat and lon and height about ground (available from FCC public info)
> 
> 
> Then the webapp/program shows you a cross section of the topography between those two points and shows whether or not there is clear line of site...
> 
> 
> Has anyone seen anything like that? I actually did it with a program at work but the feature wasn't built in for antenna solutions so it's lacking in details (like line of sight and needs better scale) ... but as a proof of concept, it was pretty slick.
> 
> 
> Seems like this could be done with free census maps and GRASS (an open source GIS program) thought it would probably be a lot of work and if something like this already exists, well that would make it easier



I've been using RADIO MOBILE to do not only topography, but also signal strength and fade margin calculations.

The mapping features include automatic download of hi-rez topography, road maps and satellite images.

The program is FREE, runs under Windows and has a very active Yahoo User Group for tricks and advice:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1122107959 


Note that I also posted an Excel spread sheet calculator, including detailed explanation, that takes the Longley-Rice

Diffraction Path Loss calculation and then melds in the "missing" parameters, such as broadcast tower antenna pattern,

clutter loss, attic/indoor loss, antenna gain vs frequency, sensitivity degradation due to VSWR mismatch,

cascaded System Noise Figure, Noise Figure vs Temperature, et. al.


See fol. for additional topography programs:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=546066


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rhwimmers* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My question is whats the best way to scan to see what all channels I can get that are above 80% or so (if thats the number to use..) and also how to tell what channel it is you picked up.
> 
> THEN, I would like to write down all the angles for what channels in what cities
> 
> FINALLY - is there a program that you can enter in all the channels you can get to see what is on where. Im a packer fan (raisied as a cheesehead) so would like to be able to get as many Packer games as possible..
> 
> Thanks for the help
> 
> Ross



Antennaweb.org has been found to be extremely conservative in predicting which DTV stations people will receive.

So only the highest quality make the cut. It usually leaves out a large number of viewable stations.


The following won't tell you how good the stations will be received, but it will give you

an exhaustive list of all DTV and/or Analog stations within a selected range, sorted by distance,

with antenna pointing angle calculated for your convenience:
www.2150.com/broadcast 


If you don't know your lat/long, the site includes a link you can use.

The fol link is easier to determine lat/long, only requiring your street address:
http://www.geocode.com/modules.php?name=TestDrive_Eagle


----------



## Oldfart

I just got my HD TiVo two days ago; it is replacing a Sony HD 200 and a Series 2 TiVo. My problem is that a number of OTA channels that I received perfectly on the HD 200 are not received at all on the HD TiVo. I get the message "Searching for signal on: Antenna In". When I check the signal strength on what used to be my best OTA channel, I get a signal in the 20s on tuner 1 and no signal on tuner 2. The only thing that the installer did was to disconnect the antenna line from the Series 2 TiVo setup (and lay it aside) and disconnect the antenna line from the HD 200 and connect it to the HD TiVo. Are the tuners in the HD TiVo known to be less sensitive than that in the HD 200? Should a signal amplifier work, or should I get a new antenna? My attic access is not large enough to accommodate a CM 4228.


----------



## Ratso Gonzales

I need a digital TV antenna for a small bungalow in San Diego. Antenna Web lists two stations in the red with the rest in yellow or dark green (3035 Olive Street, San Diego, 92101). The site recommends a medium directional. Unfortunately, the primary stations here come from 3 different directions, in an almost perfect wishbone shape from my house. The red stations being in the opposite direction of the other two. My questions:


1) If I get a medium directional and point it in towards the red stations, will it pick up the yellow and green stations behind it pretty well too?


2) for the usual reasons I would like to stick this in our "attic." (about 4' high...) Is this viable? If it is remotely viable, I will at least try it.


3) Make & model would you recommed for the attic installation vs a roof install?


Thanks so much!


Steve


----------



## greywolf

Oldfart,


The usual problem is the the HR10-250 is more sensitive. An attenuator is sometimes needed to reduce the effect of multipath interference.


----------



## Ratso Gonzales

I am surrounded by the 3 DTV broadcast towers in my area (3035 Olive Street, San Diego, CA 92104). Two of the towers are in the yellow & dark green with the third in the red (and perhaps even blue...) areas. Fortunately all VHF stations are at the easy towers. Here is my plan:


1) Get omnidirectional antenna to recieve from the first two towers (Channelmaster CM 3000 or Winegard MS1000/2000)


2) Get directional UHV antenna for final tower (Channelmaster CM 4221/4228 or Winegard PR4400/8800)


3) Stick all in my attic, join the coax cables, and be done with it.


Will this work? If so, do you think I need an amplified omnidirectional? Will the small bowties be enough? (Channelmaster claims theirs theirs to be a Large Directional while Winegard claims theirs, with comparable specs, to be only a small directional.)


Thanks!


Steve


----------



## Jeremy Tebo

I'm in dire need of some help here. I live in Denver, CO, and our local CBS channel broadcasts from a skyscraper that is about 1 mile away from me, yet I can't pick it up. It appears the problem is that I live on the second floor of a big five story building, and on the opposite side of the tower. That means there are dozens of thick concrete walls in between.


I've got a USDigital receiver. Originally I just tried a cheap $7 RCA antenna, but that wouldn't pick it up. So then I bought a $30 Philips amplified one, and that got a signal, but it just bounced up and down. Today I went to buy a Silver Sensor, but all they carried was Terk, so I got a HDTVi. It works slightly better, but it still won't lock on to add the channel.


Any suggestions? I played around with it for an hour or two trying to find a signal, but had no luck. The signal will go up to almost totally full, but then drops back down to zero. An outdoor antenna isn't really an option for me. Thanks!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ratso Gonzales* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 3) Stick all in my attic, join the coax cables, and be done with it.
> 
> 
> Will this work?



Joining multiple antennas pointed in different directions without some serious filtering almost never works. You'd be better off with a rotor and one good antenna.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jeremy Tebo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm in dire need of some help here. I live in Denver, CO, and our local CBS channel broadcasts from a skyscraper that is about 1 mile away from me, yet I can't pick it up.



Try your local thread, but your best option is probably cable until the tower situation in Denver is worked out or a good receiver with the Linx chipset is available.


----------



## Jeremy Tebo

I've been pestering the locals for a while, someone there just showed me the link to the "Deuling Silver Sensors" page - http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/silver.html . Might have to give it a try.


No cable for me, my loft building is prewired for D* only, and it's not HD capable. Long, sad, angry story. I used to have HD cable, and loved it.


----------



## Kathy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greywolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Oldfart,
> 
> 
> The usual problem is the the HR10-250 is more sensitive. An attenuator is sometimes needed to reduce the effect of multipath interference.



Greywolf,

I have the exact same problem as Oldfart, I replaced the exact same equipment, now I cannot receive the OTA channels I used to receive, and I have a lot more pixelation on those I do receive, making viewing unbearable. I have a Channel Master 4228 (pretty sure that's the model) in my attic. What is an attenuator, where would I purchase one, and where is in installed?


----------



## jjwjr

I live on the Framingham/Sudbury line in MA (outside of Boston) and currently use a CM3018 with a CM SPARTAN 3 preamp with a Humax STB. The antenna is aimed at about 116-118 (direction of all stations) which are about 11-12 mi away.


Most channels come in beautifully with few drop-outs. However 2-2 (a PBS) and 5-1 (ABC), 5-2 will go through periods of heavy drop-outs (enough to make me occasionally switch to my good old analog tuner , hey I have to watch football somehow!







). When the signals are coming in they read 90% or above on the Humax strength meter, dropping to 0% when the drop-outs occur. My house sits in a forested area with full grown pines in line of site of the towers. The trees are quite dense (no horizon is visible at all from that side of the house). Non-HD OTA reception does exhibit ghosting so I believe multipath may be causing my problem.


I am wondering if moving to a more directional (and UHF only) antenna is the right way to go. I have been considering something like a CM 4221/3021 or CM 4228. I am not sure, but it seems that the trees are either anttenuating the signal, or causing the multipath issues and I am hoping a new antenna could solve one or both of these problems.


Any help would be much appreciated!


-JJW


----------



## holl_ands

RF Variable Attenuator is available for about $10 from Radio Shack (15-678).


If you are close to the transmitter towers, too much signal may be causing some channels to have problems.

"Too close" usually means within about 5 miles, but could be 10 miles if a high gain antenna (such as the CM4228) is used.

Dial in just enough attenuation to clear up the problem.


Presuming you wouldn't use a preamp within 20 miles of the closest transmitter tower,

the attenuator would be inserted on the coax going into your On-Air Receiver.


----------



## Jeremy Tebo

Would an RF Variable Attenuator help me? I'm one mile from the tower, which sits atop a 714 ft skyscraper. It has to go straight though my building though, which is over one city block long.


----------



## Nitewatchman

Kathy in Cincinnati,


If I recall your reports on Cincinnati thread from quite some time ago, I think you had said your analog OTA reception of the Hi-power Cincinnati analog stations(Including hi power UHF analogs) off your attic antenna was very poor and "snowy", and perhaps "ghosty" as well.


Since the digital stations broadcast off the same towers, and "snow" on analog stations suggests weak signals(Ghosting=Multipath), In your particular case, I don't think it is likely an attenuator is likely to improve your reception. It is interesting however that the Sony performed better for you and Oldfart than your new receiver does -- although perhaps for alltogether different reasons.


I do think you are on the right track concerning your post today in Cincinnati thread concerning finding a knowledable, professional OTA antenna installer to install an antenna outdoors for you.


hope this helps,


----------



## theroys88

Hey guys,

Looking for some advice. This weekend I put two very large ufh/vhf antennas up on a chimney mount. One toward Norfolk Va and the other toward the Richmond stations. Norfolk stations are 76 miles away from my house and Richmond stations 7 miles. Tried the

Richmond antenna without a preamp and signal strength was too weak for a good lock on my Voom box. Added a preamp and had 96-98 on the box. My lot is heavily wooded with hills. My property is on a hill with the next 3 houses graduating up. Inside antennas have been impossibe for the Richmond stations. I was able to get a great analog picture with some ghosting and locks on the digital stations with occasional dropouts but when the wind picks up and the trees move I get lots of dropouts. Norfolks stations were a bust but I am not sure that a better antenna with higher gain might pull in those stations. My antennas that I bought were antennacraft d9000 with 92 elements. These boys are beasts! I was looking at the antennacaft xg91 with a 16db gain or the 4228. Does anyone have any thoughts and does anyone know someone in Central Virginia that installs antennas. I think need a pro to be able to tame this multipath issue. Is anyone in Central Virginia interested in the other antenna I took down. Thanks Joseph


----------



## kurtlingle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1. RG-6 is less prone to interference than 300-Ohm wire. It also doesn't break down in the elements as quickly. You should replace your 10-year old wire, but which you use is up to you.
> 
> 
> 2. What you need is a balun (balananced/unbalanced) connector. Get one rated for outdoor use. Should cost you about $2.



Thanks for your input! Well, I have not used my attenna for 2 years and now it looks like UHF does not come in anymore.


Currently I need to pick up analog from Philly, PA. I'm 7-8 miles from most of the signals and in the yellow /green zones (via antennaweb) so I picked up the CM 3016 from Lowes. I'm trying it out tomorrow.


Though I'm only needing analog now, I plan to get the new Sony 42 LCD for X-mas (for the family, of course!







So if the CM 3016 works for the analog signals in UHF, will it also be fine for the Digital? Lowes also carries the 3018 also. Any input would be great.


Thanks.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jeremy Tebo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Would an RF Variable Attenuator help me? I'm one mile from the tower, which sits atop a 714 ft skyscraper. It has to go straight though my building though, which is over one city block long.



It will cost you all of $10 to find out one way or the other...

But being only a mile away you can't help but be saturated with signal strength.


The signal will bounce off of numerous buildings, even if they are several miles away, arriving from many different angles.

These multipath signals can cause very severe null regions when the multiple signals are out of phase with each other.

That's why it is important to also search around for the best antenna location for each station.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *theroys88* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This weekend I put two very large ufh/vhf antennas up on a chimney mount. One toward Norfolk Va and the other toward the Richmond stations. ...I was looking at the antennacaft xg91 with a 16db gain or the 4228.



You don't say if you joined the two antennas together. I'm going to assume you ran two lengths of coax to your tuner box.


If, at 7 miles, you don't get much but snow from Richmond, your odds of getting Norfolk are pretty low.


The 4228 is not recommended for a rotor, and is generally outperformed by yagi designs when installed outdoors. The 91XG is a fine antenna, and has way more gain than your D9000s do on UHF, so it may help things a lot. Still, if the signal isn't there, no antenna is going to make it appear.


I'm still loving my 91xg, after a year of living with it. ( http://www.geocities.com/figbert/ant...irect91xg.html )


----------



## bmcent1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've been using RADIO MOBILE [...] runs under Windows...[/url]



You say that like it's a good thing! ;-) ... Just kidding!!


Thank you for that reference, I may try that program out too. I am very happy with SPLAT! so far but it never hurts to get a second opinion / run a second model.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Note that I also posted an Excel spread sheet calculator, including detailed explanation, that takes the Longley-Rice
> 
> Diffraction Path Loss calculation and then melds in the "missing" parameters, such as broadcast tower antenna pattern,
> 
> clutter loss, attic/indoor loss, antenna gain vs frequency, sensitivity degradation due to VSWR [...]



Thank you for that thread reference as well, I read it and it's obvious you have given this a lot of thought and effort!


Holl_ands and Sregener, a question about antennas to both of you:


The XG91 looks very promising, but it also appears I have the option of the DB8 since I will be going with a roof mount or chimney mount no more than 10' above by roof line. We get winds here sometimes but I think I could get a pretty sturdy install at that height.


I am about 34-38 miles from transmitter towers in both DC and Baltimore. I am also somewhat down a hill so I don't get line of sight in either direction, I will be counting on scatter or... something else? I originally thought DC stations would come in better, and they do (3dB according to L-R calcs) but I thought the difference would be more pronounced.


If I get the XG91, I have to point it to the best direction as DC and Balt are 50 degrees apart from my location.


Would the DB8 be a better antenna for trying to pull in those two different directions? Though terrain isn't great for my sight, those towers put out huge power (1000 kW typically), they are pretty high, and I am hoping my distance


----------



## Jeremy Tebo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It will cost you all of $10 to find out one way or the other...



Good point, might have to give it a whirl.


Unrelated whining, but anyone else get the feeling that you've gone back 20 years to the days when you had to screw around with antennas to watch TV? Seems ironic that I'm doing all this to watch HD, a new technology. Get out the tin foil...


----------



## bmcent1

Jeremy -

Yes, in some ways I agree, it does seem "retro" to be thinking about antennas; kinda reminds me of my younger years, those "weird" UHF stations and messing with the rotor to tune in different channels.


On the other hand, if antenna quality has improved and I can apply more science to it than what we had back then (just accepting was was installed when we moved in)... and if that means I can pick up, CLEAR, UNCOMPRESSED, HDTV broadcasts, OTA... *for FREE* ... well, I'll raise an antenna to that










Ultimately, this does seem anacronistic and I think the obvious future will include TV delivered over that fiber optic cable we are all waiting for be hooked up to our residences. Then HDTV will not have to be compressed to fit inside the cable operators' bandwidth. Then again, I am still waiting for my flying car and, should that fiber optic future come to be, we won't be discussing it in the "official Antenna Topic" and I would miss out on the great contributions


----------



## Oldfart

Kathy in Cincinnatti seems to have the same problem as I do; our new HD TiVos are not as sensitive as our discarded Sony HD 200s, and we thus do not now receive digital OTA channels that we previously did. My problem can't be that I need an attenuator since I am more than 35 miles from the Miami antenna farm; thus I'm looking for a better antenna. My attic access is too tight to get a CM 4228 up there, so I'm considering using two CM 4221s. Can someone tell me if this is a good idea, and if so, how I should hook them together for the best results? I don't have the room to stack them one above the other.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bmcent1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I get the XG91, I have to point it to the best direction as DC and Balt are 50 degrees apart from my location.
> 
> 
> Would the DB8 be a better antenna for trying to pull in those two different directions?



Marginally better. But probably not good enough to get both. Why not a 91XG with a rotor? That way, you can point the antenna to whichever city you want to watch. (Note:bowtie antennas are murder on residential-grade rotors.)


FWIW, I don't have line-of-sight to a single transmitter, and get great reception from the stations 30 miles away with the 91XG. I also get good/fair reception of stations some 75+ miles away.


If your analogs look like the ones on this page ( http://www.geocities.com/figbert/8vsb.html ) then you definitely want a preamplifier if you don't already have one. Most recommend the CM7777.


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oldfart* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Kathy in Cincinnatti seems to have the same problem as I do; our new HD TiVos are not as sensitive as our discarded Sony HD 200s, and we thus do not now receive digital OTA channels that we previously did. My problem can't be that I need an attenuator since I am more than 35 miles from the Miami antenna farm; thus I'm looking for a better antenna. My attic access is too tight to get a CM 4228 up there, so I'm considering using two CM 4221s. Can someone tell me if this is a good idea, and if so, how I should hook them together for the best results? I don't have the room to stack them one above the other.



Two 4221s put side-by-side are the same size as a 4228. If you do try to combine the 4221s, the only thing you can easily do is use a combiner (a splitter hooked up backwards). You will have more loss doing this than with a 4228 but if your attic opening can only get a 4221 thru, then may the force be with you.


You may need to try a CM7777 pre-amplifier with whatever antenna you put in the attic (even the one you have now). The pre-amp makes up for the loss of the signal penetrating the roof. The net gain is about 6 dB (amp gain - attic attenuation), so you could end up about where you were with the Sony.


You might want to consider a Winegard SS1000 outside. It's a bit far for that antenna to perform properly but almost any antenna outside is better than most antennas inside an attic. It look nice and has a high WAF (Wife Aceptance Factor).


Bob Chase

KHWB-TV


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bmcent1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I get the XG91, I have to point it to the best direction as DC and Balt are 50 degrees apart from my location.
> 
> 
> Would the DB8 be a better antenna for trying to pull in those two different directions? Though terrain isn't great for my sight, those towers put out huge power (1000 kW typically), they are pretty high, and I am hoping my distance


----------



## bmcent1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The DB8's beamwidth probably doesn't differ that much from the XG91. The AD website gives you the impression it's omnidirectional, but it most certainly isn't. I wish they would fix that already.
> 
> 
> If you really want consistent reception at 40 miles with a 50 degree spread you'll need a rotator or two separate downleads (and antennas) into an A/B switch.



Okay, I'm definately zero'ing in on the right antenna. I am going to drop the 50 degree spread idea and just try to pick up DC (or Baltimore if DC doesn't work out.) The only reason I thought about splitting the difference was if that was reasonable with the DB8. From comments here and reading articles, it appears that wider spread = less gain, kinda obvious in hindsight ;-)


The reason I don't want to a rotor is that my goal is to feed a MythTV DVR setup. Changing the rotor before recording is out of the question. On that front, if I hit the lotto and felt like getting really fancy (bad idea ;-) I might run two separate antennas into two separate tuner cards so that they wouldn't interfere with each other.


Famous last words, but I think this is my final question before purchase: Are there significant performance differences between 8-bay antennas and the corner yagi when terrain and upper 30-miles distance to towers are the primary factors? It appears the CM 4228 and DB8 8-bay antennas have slightly higher gain than the XG91. What caught my attention is that the gain graphs suggest the 8-bay antennas have better gain over the whole UHF channel spectrum while the corner yagi is biased toward the upper channels. The Wash channels I was shooting for were 34,36,39,48, and 51.


----------



## Ratso Gonzales




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Joining multiple antennas pointed in different directions without some serious filtering almost never works. You'd be better off with a rotor and one good antenna.



Thanks for your advice, and I wish that were an option...Unfortunately, I am stuck with attic install and a good antenna with a rotor simply won't fit. Also the antennas are for a dual-tuner media center so I would like to be able to use the tuners for recording and also simultaneously tuning two stations at once (football season arrives Saturday1)


Do I stand any chance?


Thanks!


Steve


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bmcent1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Okay, I'm definately zero'ing in on the right antenna. I am going to drop the 50 degree spread idea and just try to pick up DC (or Baltimore if DC doesn't work out.) The only reason I thought about splitting the difference was if that was reasonable with the DB8. From comments here and reading articles, it appears that wider spread = less gain, kinda obvious in hindsight ;-)
> 
> 
> The reason I don't want to a rotor is that my goal is to feed a MythTV DVR setup. Changing the rotor before recording is out of the question. On that front, if I hit the lotto and felt like getting really fancy (bad idea ;-) I might run two separate antennas into two separate tuner cards so that they wouldn't interfere with each other.
> 
> 
> Famous last words, but I think this is my final question before purchase: Are there significant performance differences between 8-bay antennas and the corner yagi when terrain and upper 30-miles distance to towers are the primary factors? It appears the CM 4228 and DB8 8-bay antennas have slightly higher gain than the XG91. What caught my attention is that the gain graphs suggest the 8-bay antennas have better gain over the whole UHF channel spectrum while the corner yagi is biased toward the upper channels. The Wash channels I was shooting for were 34,36,39,48, and 51.



In theory that is true but in practice there's just not much of a difference. Some have even said that the XG91 is better on the lower channels. The xg91's PCB balun might add a small advantage.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ratso Gonzales* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for your advice, and I wish that were an option...Unfortunately, I am stuck with attic install and a good antenna with a rotor simply won't fit. Also the antennas are for a dual-tuner media center so I would like to be able to use the tuners for recording and also simultaneously tuning two stations at once (football season arrives Saturday1)
> 
> 
> Do I stand any chance?



A 4228 or 4221 should rotate just fine in most attics - they only need 4' or 2' respectively of clearance to rotate. And both are fine, quality antennas.


Do you stand a chance if you do things wrong? I won't lie. Yes. You stand a chance. But don't go into it expecting success if you want to give it a try.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bmcent1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Famous last words, but I think this is my final question before purchase: Are there significant performance differences between 8-bay antennas and the corner yagi when terrain and upper 30-miles distance to towers are the primary factors? It appears the CM 4228 and DB8 8-bay antennas have slightly higher gain than the XG91.



There are performance differences between the bowtie and corner-reflector/yagi antennas, but they probably won't be significant inside of 40 miles. Don't put too much faith in those gain charts. The 91XG is a top performer, and the 4228 is, too. Generally speaking, though, the yagis work better outdoors while the bowties work better indoors, so I'd go with the 91XG. Believe me when I tell you that mine works very, very, very well all the way down to channel 20, and quite probably below that, too, though it's harder to test and verify below that point.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The xg91's PCB balun might add a small advantage.



When did they start putting those on XG91's? My XG91(purchased last December) did not come with a PCB balun. It has a plastic "balun box"(should help with waterproofing), but inside is a standard looking balun("sort of" cigar shaped labeled "matching transformer"), with short piece of "twinlead"(It's actually 2 wires that appear to be heavier guage than most) that hooks to 300 ohm terminals on the driven element.


In my case, I removed its balun(and 1/2 of it's "balun box" which easily "comes apart") as I'm using a short piece of twinlead hooked to a mast-mount preamp(Winegard AC-4990) with 300 ohm input. I am not using the balun from it for anything right now, but I have used it for various things and it seems to work as good(or better but can't really say) as any ferrite-core balun I've used.


----------



## wdmoody

My local CBS station recently upgraded their power from 400kw to 1,000kw. Since the upgrade I experience frequent dropouts that appear to be multipath interference. Before the upgrade my reception was fine. The signal bounces off of a repeater that is within 25 miles of my house. I can see the lights on the tower at night, so I have a clear path to the signal. I have a 100" Channel Master antenna that I bought when all of the local HD signals were lower power (some still are low power). Is my antenna too big? What can I try to straighten this problem? I'd rather not have to move the antenna if I can avoid it. Thanks.


Walt


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wdmoody* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My local CBS station recently upgraded their power from 400kw to 1,000kw. Since the upgrade I experience frequent dropouts that appear to be multipath interference.



Try a variable attenuator from Radio Shack.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When did they start putting those on XG91's? My XG91(purchased last December) did not come with a PCB balun. .



I'm not sure, but they're there now unless they are advertised incorrectly.
http://www.antennasdirect.com/91XG_HDTV_antenna.html 

I always thought it was a re-branded Euro antenna anyway (?Funke), but maybe not if they used to have the ferrite balun.


----------



## Jeremy Tebo

FWIW, I bought a variable attenuator ($10 version) and it did not help. The signal still bounces up and down and will not lock on. Multipath has officially pissed on my parade and ruined an entire HD football season.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I always thought it was a re-branded Euro antenna anyway.



I did a little research on this a while back. Looks like it's actually made(and was designed) in China by a company called "CEDA", with several different brand names used throughout the world.


I also think different Driven elements(and perhaps different baluns) are used by various antenna "companies"/distributors selling these things in different countries/etc -- with the Funke's, I think different driven element is used depending upon application/model #.


Here's a link with picture of it from the Chinese company(CEDA) that designed the antenna and actually manufacture them :

http://ceda-antenna.en.alibaba.com/p...r_Antenna.html 


Here's some info on CEDA's company profile -- I Gotta take my hat off to Those of their 10 R&D who worked on the "XG91's" design! - They have several other antenna designs which I find interesting as well -- Including some I've seen "elsewhere", and some I haven't :

http://ceda-antenna.en.alibaba.com/profile.html 


Here is the antenna in Australia, as a Jaycar LT3182:

http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productVie...=&SUBCATID=478 


Couple of different versions of it on this Funke page(again - the difference being different driven elements for different frequency coverage , I beleive) :

http://www.funke.nl/aerials/00352003.htm 


Here it is in Poland, as a Dipol A3710 :

http://www.dipol.com.pl/esklep/a3710.htm


----------



## kosar1985

does anyone have any info on the vu-75xr. I live in Medina, OH and i get channels 5.1,8.1,43.1 in at about 93% with a silver sensor indoor antenna. I can get channel 19.1 at about 63-69%, channel 3 doesnt come in at all. Do you guys think this antenna will work


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm not sure, but they're there now unless they are advertised incorrectly ...... but maybe not if they used to have the ferrite balun.



I didn't break the balun apart to see what is in there ... I don't know if it's possible for a PCB balun to be in there or not, I could be wrong but I wouldn't think so.


Attached is a pic of the Balun that was inside the "black box" on (Dec 2004) XG91. As you can see, it's about 2.25" long(including the female F-connector) and it's about 3/4" wide. I did remove clips on its 300 ohm terminals in order to use it for "other purposes"(specifically on the back of a FM receiver that has those "push in" 300 ohm antenna terminals.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kosar1985* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> does anyone have any info on the vu-75xr. I live in Medina, OH and i get channels 5.1,8.1,43.1 in at about 93% with a silver sensor indoor antenna. I can get channel 19.1 at about 63-69%, channel 3 doesnt come in at all. Do you guys think this antenna will work



Given the results you're getting off the indoor antenna(even pulling in one VHF-HI station with a UHF antenna), especially If you mount the VU-75XR outside and aim it North I'd say you've got a decent shot at it. No guarentees, however. Getting good Lo-VHF(Ch 2-6 - 54~88MHZ) digital reception has seemingly proved difficult for many folks, perhaps especially so when indoor antennas are used. "Impulse noise" and other RFI is likely one reason for this. You'll probably find more info+advice concerning WKYC-DT reception on the Cleveland thread.


Looks like Medina is about 25 miles from the lake ... I didn't look up exactly where the Cleveland transmitters are, and you should check antenna web to see what the headings to transmitters are, but I do seem to recall looking at where WOIO-DT was once, and that it was near the lake, pretty much North of you.


Keep in mind, the channel numbers you are referencing are the PSIP remapped virtual channel numbers, not the actual channels the digital stations transmit on. If you go to www.antennaweb.org and punch in your address, it will show the actual channels the stations transmit on in your area the far right column, labeled "frequency assignment". Among other things, PSIP is info the station sends which tells your receiver to "show" it as being on the remapped channel number, even though that is not where it's actually transmitting.


WKYC-DT(DT callsign designation means it's a digital station) actually transmits on VHF channel 2(the analog station transmits on channel 3, the digital remaps to 3.x), WOIO-DT actually transmits on VHF channel 10 and remaps to 19.1, WOIO analog transmits on UHF channel 19.


Good luck,


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I didn't break the balun apart to see what is in there ... I don't know if it's possible for a PCB balun to be in there or not, I could be wrong but I wouldn't think so.
> 
> 
> Attached is a pic of the Balun that was inside the "black box" on (Dec 2004) XG91. As you can see, it's about 2.25" long(including the female F-connector) and it's about 3/4" wide. I did remove clips on its 300 ohm terminals in order to use it for "other purposes"(specifically on the back of a FM receiver that has those "push in" 300 ohm antenna terminals.



That looks like a common ferrite core balun to me. Either they've changed it since you bought your xg91 or they are advertising incorrectly. Here's a pic of the PCB balun on one of my Funke psp 1922's. My Triax Band A's have one that looks very similar.


----------



## Nitewatchman

Cpcat,


From what I can tell, the size of the housing in your pic looks similiar(if not the same) as the housing("balun box") on the XG91. So, even if the housing didn't change but balun did, it certianly seems like it could easily accomodate a similar sized board. Perhaps someone interested who purchases xg91 soon, or has purchased one recently can check theirs before installation, or if it's an indoor install and easily accesable.


Unfortunetly, I can't take a good pic of it, or examine it closely as it's up 40ft on the tower/mast.


If I recall correctly however, I think one side of the housing is riveted-* to the boom, with holes(there were "waterproofing" boots there as well) on the side of the top 1/2 of the housing so the bottom side of the folded dipole (driven element) where the terminals are goes into the top 1/2 of the housing(plastic). The female F-connector on the included balun then fits snugly in a "Hole"(1/2 of which is on top 1/2 of housing, 1/2 of that hole on bottom 1/2 of housing), and protrudes out of that hole so you can hook up the coax.


* - In addition to the rivet(s) (If one is there, I'm particurarly hazy on that), there may have instead been a remvoable fastener(bolt with a wing nut perhaps).


I don't think it will tell us anything more, but I think I should have the bottom 1/2 of the housing out in garage in one "antenna stuff I might need someday" box, as If I recall correctly I had to leave the bottom 1/2 of the balun housing off in order to run 300 Ohm twinlead from the terminals on the driven element to mast-mount preamp - which was what I wanted to do, given the preamp I am using.


---------------------


I was also thinking, another possibility could be that have it so it can support either PCB board or ferrite core balun(or no balun as in my case) per customer preference. I ordered it off antennadirect website, and don't seem to recall specifing anything like that, but I suppose my memory could be hazy .... I do recall calling them to ask about expected shipping date and ended up having a nice "antenna" and TV/DTV Dx'ing conversation with the fellow I was talking to .. I seem to also recall telling him I'd be using 300 ohm input on preamp+a short piece of twinlead and he said it would "work" ...


Probably more than anyone wanted to know, though ... LOL ....


----------



## clangro

I'm looking to buy an antenna now, but I have no idea what to get.


According to antennaweb.org, I'm 20-24 miles away from most of the towers. They recommend a small, multidirectional antenna. Almost all of the signals are UHF, so UHF quality matters the most. Compass orientation is 205 and 207 on almost all of the stations, which is good that they are so close.


Here's the deal. I live on the 2nd story of a 3 story apartment complex. I need a small, indoor antenna I can purchase locally so I can return it easily if I have any problems. Any help on what to get, where, and how much?


It's funny, because I'm buying this antenna almost exclusively for 1 TV show, Veronica Mars on UPN, which Comcast cable doesn't offer in HD.


----------



## poster

Hi everyone,

I just pulled the trigger on a Panny 50" 50U and it is getting delivered tommorrow. I do not have HD set up from D* yet, and have heard I can get a cheap antenna for locals. I tried searching and couldn't find any old threads. Can anyone suggest a cheap indoor antenna for local signals? Would this be neccessary to have after D* hooks up my dish and box? Thanks in advance for the help!


----------



## theroys88

Anyone have any sure fire way to tame dynamic multipath other then bombing the entire area with agent orange? Live in a are with lots of trees and multipath issues anyway. Ghosting on all analog channels. Have a very large directional uhf/vhf antenna on the roof and when the wind kicks up I get lots of dropouts. On the analog side uhf channels seem to also suffer from this. Signal fluctuates on uhf analog. Have a Voom box which I think is a 4th generation tuner. Any advice would be helpful.


----------



## Ratso Gonzales

I would love to use a rotor, but I have a dual-tuner HTPC and would like to run PIP to watch football as well as record TV via a PVR. I might sacrafice the PIP and the ability to watch one station while I record another, but can the rotor automatically point to whatever tower the PVR is trying to tune? My old-school memory of rotors are of things you have to actuate manually. If I can't record with my PVR I think it is a deal-breaker.


Thanks!


Steve


----------



## manufanatic

Hello, I have brighthouse Digital cable but I want to use my Directv HD receiver to get the local HD channels OTA.


Any recommendations on an Indoor HDTV antenna that can pick up the signal say about 20-25 miles away?


Thanks


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *theroys88* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyone have any sure fire way to tame dynamic multipath other then bombing the entire area with agent orange? Live in a are with lots of trees and multipath issues anyway.



Sadly, this type of problem is very, very hard to solve. The problem actually isn't multipath, it's varying signal strength (the real kind, not the kind most on-screen meters show.) Essentially, your tuner has what's called an automatic gain control, which figures out how strong the signal is and adjusts itself accordingly to receive the signal. If the signal is weak, it turns up the juice and listens to the weak signal. If the signal is strong, it ratchets things down. Either way, the incoming signal after the AGC is at the same level, so the tuner can optimally handle it. When the trees sway, the AGC control can't keep up, so the signal is rapidly changing from strong to weak, confusing the tuner.


Other than getting above the trees, there's very little you can do to defeat this. You might do better with a stacked bowtie-style antenna like the 4228.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ratso Gonzales* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...but can the rotor automatically point to whatever tower the PVR is trying to tune?



Newer rotors can be controlled using remote-controls, so if you could program an IR blaster, you should be able to do this...


----------



## Joe_M

There should be some good info here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=381623


----------



## Oldfart

I just got my HD TiVo last week; it is replacing a Sony HD 200 and a Series 2 TiVo. My problem is that a number of OTA channels that I received perfectly on the HD 200 are not received at all on the HD TiVo. I get the message "Searching for signal on: Antenna In". When I check the signal strength on what used to be my best OTA channel, I get a signal in the 20s on tuner 1 and no signal on tuner 2. The only thing that the installer did was to disconnect the antenna line from the Series 2 TiVo setup (and lay it aside) and disconnect the antenna line from the HD 200 and connect it to the HD TiVo.


My current antenna is a Terk 35 in the attic. Should a signal amplifier work, or should I get a new antenna? My attic access is not large enough to accommodate a CM 4228, but I understand that it is possible to drill out some rivets and then fold the antenna, later replacing the rivets with nuts and bolts. Does anyone have any experience in this regard? Alternatively I can get two CM 4221s and hook them together side by side. What would be the best way to do this? I understand that the intact reflector screen of the 4228 is what provides the high band VHS performance of the 4228, and I do not want to lose that.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oldfart* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I understand that it is possible to drill out some rivets and then fold the antenna, later replacing the rivets with nuts and bolts. Does anyone have any experience in this regard?



Rather easy to do. Much easier to get good results this way than trying to join two 4221. A 4228 is really just two 4221's with all the necessary hardware to mount them together, already in place.


----------



## holl_ands

It isn't so much the bigger reflector on the CM4228 that extends performance into the upper VHF band,

as it is the center feed structure: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...oom=zoom#xview 

Look at the individual view angles to see the detailed connection.


For UHF frequencies the "quarter-wavelength" feed structure combines the signals from eight individual

bowtie elements, with impedance matching as best as can be expected for a wideband antenna system.


However, for VHF frequencies the feed structure is only a small fraction of a wavelength,

so the entire antenna structure acts more like one very wide (and fat) center fed dipole

(with a reflector screen that is closer than optimum spacing).


If you simply use an RF Combiner (even a low loss Lindsay Stripline Combiner) to combine two CM4221's,

the VHF performance will be considerably worse than a CM4228.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bmcent1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Holl_ands and Sregener, a question about antennas to both of you:
> 
> 
> The XG91 looks very promising, but it also appears I have the option of the DB8 since I will be going with a roof mount or chimney mount no more than 10' above by roof line. We get winds here sometimes but I think I could get a pretty sturdy install at that height.
> 
> 
> I am about 34-38 miles from transmitter towers in both DC and Baltimore. I am also somewhat down a hill so I don't get line of sight in either direction, I will be counting on scatter or... something else? I originally thought DC stations would come in better, and they do (3dB according to L-R calcs) but I thought the difference would be more pronounced.
> 
> 
> If I get the XG91, I have to point it to the best direction as DC and Balt are 50 degrees apart from my location.
> 
> 
> Would the DB8 be a better antenna for trying to pull in those two different directions? Though terrain isn't great for my sight, those towers put out huge power (1000 kW typically), they are pretty high, and I am hoping my distance


----------



## poster

Guys please help a noob. I have D* and just got my TV. I was under the impression that an indoor HD antenna would boost my local signal. I live in a suburb of Milwaukee and my locals come in just fine. I take it that you need an indoor antenna only if you can't get locals due to location. For example if you live deep in the county. I bought one today but see no way to hook it up because my satelite is in the way. Bring it back right? Thanks again for helping a noob out.


----------



## theroys88

Just read that the senate is getting close to a consensus for a true hard date for digital

transition date of 2009. That seems realistic to me. That gives the digital tuner manufacturers time to beat multipath.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *poster* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Guys please help a noob. I have D* and just got my TV. I was under the impression that an indoor HD antenna would boost my local signal. I live in a suburb of Milwaukee and my locals come in just fine. I take it that you need an indoor antenna only if you can't get locals due to location. For example if you live deep in the county. I bought one today but see no way to hook it up because my satelite is in the way. Bring it back right? Thanks again for helping a noob out.



I'm a little confused by your question, even after reading your other posts on this forum, so let's see how far we get.

First let's start with D* manual download page:
http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/learn/Manuals.dsp 


Most of the new D* HD Receivers have an input specifically designed for an On-Air DTV Antenna, typically called "OFF AIR IN".

This is where you would connect the usual TV antenna.

If your D* Receiver does not have this capability, then you would connect to your Panny's On-Air Antenna connector.


The D* Receiver would be more convenient than using your Panny's internal ATSC On-Air Tuner,

since you would only need to deal with a single integrated program guide and your Panny would always be set for watching the D* input.


D* should provide all ANALOG local channels and a few HD channels.

But most areas do not yet have ALL of the local DTV channels (some are HD and some are still low-rez).


You should set up a free account at www.titantv.com to see which D* channels and On-Air channels you get in your area.

You can also use one of the pull-down selectors to see ONLY HD program listings.


You should also start by entering your address/zipcode into www.antennaweb.org and see whether all of the stations you want

can be received with a simple indoor antenna (yellow, sometimes green).

Usually, an indoor antenna is limited to perhaps 10-15 miles distance.

You can also see if any of the on-air stations require an antenna that covers both the VHF and UHF bands.

[Most DTV stations are in UHF band today, but many will move to the VHF band in the near future.]


Typical unamplified indoor antennas commonly discussed in this forum include the Terk HDTVi (LPDA with VHF rabbit ears),

the Philips/Zenith/Sears Silver Sensor (LPDA without VHF rabbit ears) and the Radio Shack 15-624 (two-bay bowtie).


If you are more than about 10 miles from the closest transmitter, you should be able to use an amplified indoor antenna,

such as the Radio Shack 15-872 (LPDA without rabbit ears) or one of the many (and less desirable) amplified loop plus rabbit ears (for VHF).


----------



## poster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm a little confused by your question, even after reading your other posts on this forum, so let's see how far we get.
> 
> First let's start with D* manual download page:
> http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/learn/Manuals.dsp
> 
> 
> Most of the new D* Receivers have an input specifically designed for an On-Air DTV Antenna, typically called "OFF AIR IN".
> 
> This is where you would connect the usual TV antenna.
> 
> If your D* Receiver does not have this capability, then you would connect to your Panny's On-Air Antenna connector.
> 
> 
> The D* Receiver would be more convenient than using your Panny's internal ATSC On-Air Tuner,
> 
> since you would only need to deal with a single integrated program guide and your Panny would always be set for watching the D* input.
> 
> 
> D* should provide all ANALOG local channels and a few HD channels.
> 
> But most areas do not yet have ALL of the local DTV channels (some are HD and some are still low-rez).
> 
> 
> You should set up a free account at www.titantv.com to see which D* channels and On-Air channels you get in your area.
> 
> You can also use one of the pull-down selectors to see ONLY HD program listings.
> 
> 
> You should also start by entering your address/zipcode into www.antennaweb.org and see whether all of the stations you want
> 
> can be received with a simple indoor antenna (yellow, sometimes green).
> 
> Usually, an indoor antenna is limited to perhaps 10-15 miles distance.
> 
> You can also see if any of the on-air stations require an antenna that covers both the VHF and UHF bands.
> 
> [Most DTV stations are in UHF band today, but many will move to the VHF band in the near future.]
> 
> 
> Typical unamplified indoor antennas commonly discussed in this forum include the Terk HDTVi (LPDA with VHF rabbit ears),
> 
> the Philips/Zenith/Sears Silver Sensor (LPDA without VHF rabbit ears) and the Radio Shack 15-624 (two-bay bowtie).
> 
> 
> If you are more than about 10 miles from the closest transmitter, you should be able to use an amplified indoor antenna,
> 
> such as the Radio Shack 15-872 (LPDA without rabbit ears) or one of the many (and less desirable) amplified loop plus rabbit ears (for VHF).



I really appreciate the help. I am sure a newbie like me can confuse alot of people with knowledge on the subject. Thanks for bearing with me. I still have my standard D* box. HD cant be installed until the 17th







. After looking at it, I see the Antenna In outlet. I will plug it into there and check it out after work. I am within 10-15 miles of all of the towers so I should be OK there. They all come in, just wondered if this antenna woul dmake it a little bit better. I bought an RCA amplified antenna from Best Buy for a cheap price. This should help boost my local signal and give me a better picture right? Thanks!


----------



## greywolf

You are taking information about HD receivers and applying them to your situation. It does not work that way. Non HD receivers do not have antenna inputs because they do not have tuners for anything but satellite. You cannot put an antenna on your receiver.


HD receivers do have antenna inputs because they have OTA, over the air, tuners as well as satellite tuners. These do not improve the satellite picture. They allow the receiver to tune local digital channels, including some which carry HD programming some of the time. Local channels through the dish are compressed standard definition and don't look as good. The improvement comes from tuning in a different source, OTA as opposed to satellite. It's just that an antenna is needed to get the signals to the OTA tuner.


----------



## poster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greywolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You are taking information about HD receivers and applying them to your situation. It does not work that way. Non HD receivers do not have antenna inputs because they do not have tuners for anything but satellite. You cannot put an antenna on your receiver.
> 
> 
> HD receivers do have antenna inputs because they have OTA, over the air, tuners as well as satellite tuners. These do not improve the satellite picture. They allow the receiver to tune local digital channels, including some which carry HD programming some of the time. Local channels through the dish are compressed standard definition and don't look as good. The improvement comes from tuning in a different source, OTA as opposed to satellite. It's just that an antenna is needed to get the signals to the OTA tuner.



Thanks for the help greywolf. So just so I have this straight, I should wait until my D*HD is hooked up, then i can put the antenna on that box? Thanks for helping me out!


----------



## colofan

Sorry I posted before in the wrong section so any ideas?




So has anyone tried the blondertongue BTY series of antennas? I mean I have a CM4228 and it still isn't get the job done. I had a CM3023 before.


This antenna is for single channels and comes out at 75 ohm instead so no need for a balun. It appears that these are the antennas that cable and TV stations use to feed their front ends.


Not that I want to spend a fortune trying to get the networks but really 45 miles away from a 10 kilowatt station that is behind a 50 foot hill is becoming a challenge


Ideas comments please?


----------



## milehighmike

Greywolf,


I beg to differ with you regarding antenna inputs on non-HD satellite receivers. I have two E* 311's. They have OTA antenna inputs that I am, in fact, using for my analog locals.


----------



## chinatti

I have a CM4228 and CM777 preamp on order, and I'll be trying them in the attic (at least initially) to go with my new HR10-250. I know that you want to place the preamp unit as close to the antenna as possible, but I was wondering if the placement of the power supply makes any difference. I could place the power supply up in the attic near the preamp, but I'd have to run an extension cord. I have a more convenient spot where the RG6 goes by a power outlet (at my "distribution" area where all my RG6 converges). If there is no difference, I'll place the power supply there, but if it's advantageous, I'll run the cord and put it in the attic (or alternatively, place it at the other end at the receiver).


Thanks in advance.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Using my spread sheet calculator, I'm still collecting data on how much fade margin is enough to ensure an "acceptable" frequency of signal dropouts.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, it is difficult to pin down some of those assumptions, such as loss through trees, clutter loss, sensitivity loss due to VSWR, et. al.
> 
> Right now, I think it is in the ballpark of 20-30 dB, give or take 10 dB.



Are you estimating 20-30db "necessary" fade margin for your own reception conditions, or as a overall "expected" figure, or as a "worse case" thing? That seems AWFULLY high to me, at least from my DTV reception experience. 5db (or even a bit less) fade margin seems to be enough here for perfect, dropout free reception, but I like to have an extra 10db for "extra insurance" where possible.


While I don't have time right now for a completely "detailed" report(as if the below isn't long enough ...) :


#1.) I can tell you I have experienced(that I've noticed) a total of 5 or 6 reception related dropouts at my location with local DTV reception since November 2001 (all of those occuring before 2004) and fortunetly I was able to detirmine what caused all of those. In two cases, involving a local DTV station on RF 10, it was due to noise spikes from VERY nearby lightning strikes, both occuring in Spring 2002. The other 3 or 4 dropouts were due to STRONG co-channel interference via "tropo" signal propagation.


#2). With my current antenna system, I have to pad signals(by adding extra attenuation in feedline) from Local DTV stations(There are 14 of them I receive "perfectly" located 12~39 miles distant) by anywhere between -20db to -60 db to get down to near threshold levels. Only 2 stations are down "near threshold" if I pad them by about -23db. The rest need at least -30db extra attentuation or more. Most require around, at or above -50db to get down to near threshold levels.


Note : when padding these signals the figures above are based on how much extra attenuation it took to get "down" to the minium level required to still achieve perfect, dropout free reception(for the period I was observing while padding the signals). As, It proved too difficult, given my means of "measurement"(don't have a spectrum analyzer/etc) to try to get somewhat accurate measurements concerning how much extra attenuation added to feedline was required for the signal to drop below a signal lock or in between that and "perfect reception", although the difference between "PSIP" lock and perfect reception was generally only around 3~4db or so. I have noted that it seems to take a little less(perhaps around two db or so) to acheive a PSIP lock than it does to achieve a "full" signal lock with at least some degree of video/audio decoding occuring.


#3). With the use of other antennas/padding the signal/etc, I have experienced no reception related dropouts - over long periods of time with as little as 6db (or less) "margin" available. In fact, concerning local DTV signals and my previous "main" antenna system(given the attenuation in feedline from splitters/etc I was using at the time, which is more than I'm using now) In use for DTV reception between Nov. 2001 and Dec 2004 -- Without adding any "add'l" attenuation in feedline, My weakest receivable local signal(DT on 24) only required about 6db "extra" padding to LOSE a lock, and the only 2 dropouts I experienced from that station which occured during that time period due to a co-channel analog(nearly off back side of antenna) 150 miles away really "blasting" in via "tropo", as reported farther above ... While I do see this co-channel station fairly often via tropo given proper antenna aiming, it has only been that one time that I've noticed that the signal has been strong enough to raise "noise floor" enough to cause a dropout(2 in this case over the hour or so when the co-channel station was exceptionally strong) to local station. Since the "new" antenna setup here should have a better F/B ratio than the old antenna, I expect it is/will even be more rare to see dropouts due to this co-channel situation.


Antenna setup Note : The "old" main antenna was a large VHF/UHF combo antenna(Radio shack VU210 specically), which I installed in 1992 mounted at 35FT AGL, 838FT ASL. Preamp was a early 80's vintage Blonder-tongue mast mount preamp(I think the specs were about 15db gain on UHF/10db gain VHF, 4.5db NF). The Coax run was new in early 80's as well. Along with new coax runs, New UHF antenna is XG91 at same height(35 FT AGL, 838 ft ASL), Winegard AC-4990 mast mount preamp(2.9db NF, 29db gain) for UHF, VHF antenna is Winegard PR-5030 with CM7778 preamp(VHF specs 15db gain, 3db NF).


"other antennas" involved with #3) above are mainly simple indoor antennas(used indoors with a cheap RS distribution amp, or no amp). "Rabbit ears", UHF loop or bowtie(folded dipole -- no reflector - "wire" in the shape of a bowtie, specifically).


location information - Terrain and trees : My location is in a small, steep, very forested valley. With the tower "base"(and the foundatation of my house) at 803 FT ASL, and the UHF antenna at 838FT ASL, there is terrain 50FT higher than antenna in most directions within 1/4 mile, and in some directions, terrain 50FT higher than antenna as close as 300Feet away from it, with terrian rising as much as 300Feet higher than antenna in some directions within a few miles. However, most of the terrain in my immediate vicinity(within a mile or so) If fairly flat, and ranges between 850FT and 900FT ASL.


However, Luckily, it's somewhat "open" in the directions of the local stations' towers, however, not to the extent that there is completely unobstructed RF "line of sight", according to somewhat seat of pants caluclations using Delorme's Topo USA software and elevation profile plots to the towers+antenna height info from stations licensed facilities/etc. on FCC site.


I was also able to have detailed longely-rice studies done for my location for a couple of local stations by a broadcast engineer friend using the comsoft package. In one case, involving my weakest, receivable local DTV signal as discussed above(DT on 24 at 54 KW ERP, 39 miles at 1099FT ASL on a 300ft stick), (given my antenna height) the longely-rice study predicted :


43dbu field strength

131.8dB Base loss


attenuation by terrain :


Diffraction : 26.9db

Fresnel : 11.5db


-------------------------------------------------------------


While I would not want to draw any conclusions from this for other locations, or overall in any sort of general way -- nevertheless, from MY location anyway -- I've found Excellent, dropout free(more or less) reception has been achieivable with as little or 6db or even less "fade margin", including with Early receivers(such as RCA DTC-100, which I believe is 1.5 or 2nd generation), and over long periods of time over which there have been plenty of oppurtunities for changes in Dynamic Multipath conditions(high winds as high as 70mph gust moving tree limbs around, places flying over/etc) Certianly, I have more than that with the antenna system I'm currently using, and it doesn't hurt to have a little "insurance" I'd say ... but, in my case at least, I would say 10db fade margin is certianly more than enough "extra insurance".


--------------------------------------------------------------


That being said -- I can however report that I *do* have a 15th local DTV station(DT 39) that is a problem. Although I have no way of knowing, While I expect 10db fade margin for it would probably be "enough"(or close to it) for this particular station+reception difficulties involved, I suspect it might require a bit more margin than that - I'd guess 15~20db would be a good bet for some "extra" insurance.


Even though this station is only 12 miles distant from my location - I'm quite sure that insufficent signal strength is the MAIN issue involved, and There are significant issues involving :


Their STA, relatively low antenna height and directional antenna pattern that doesn't favor my direction(they send about 2KW ERP in my direction according to the relative field strength shown on FCC sitefor their current facilities for their current operating permit), terrain issues(this one is in a significantly different location from the others, in a direction where terrain is a particularly difficult issue), as well as a direction which is perhaps more significantly impacted by atteunation by trees/leaves.(the heavy tree cover(trees 30~100FT tall) starts only 15 feet from my antenna in that directon).


When the leaves are off trees, Mid-fall through early spring at my location -- I am often able to receive at, or near threshold signals from this station, often enough to achieve "perfect", or near perfect reception with perhaps a dropout occuring every now and then if a slight breeze moves the tree limbs around/etc. If it is quite windy however(with leaves off trees), I might get a decodable frame every now and then, but that is about it. When the leaves are ON trees however, signal is quite a bit below threshold, It seems at least 4~5db less. While this is a bit more attenuation than I would expect on due to "leaf cover" alone, I suspect the combination of combination of issues mentioned above are a culprit. In this case, I suspect IF I could raise my antenna "higher"(or move it to a "hot spot"), I could fairly easily improve reception of this station. I have no need to do that however, as this is a TBN affiliate, and even if I were a frequent TBN viewer, I expect it won't be much of a problem once they raise their antenna height/etc and go to "full power", if their analog station which booms in here from a higher transmitting antenna on the same tower).


I would also note that, especially during the time this station is not receivable during spring/summer/fall months, I DO occasionally see good signals via tropo from co-channel stations such as DTV from Southern Michigan and NE Ohio, and Central KY, and the local, although it is only 12 miles away, does not seem to be raising the noise level "much" given stations being received from different directions ... Another "clue" that this signal is particularly weak.


----------



## greywolf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *milehighmike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Greywolf,
> 
> 
> I beg to differ with you regarding antenna inputs on non-HD satellite receivers. I have two E* 311's. They have OTA antenna inputs that I am, in fact, using for my analog locals.



The question was re: a D*system and DTV, not E* and analog.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *colofan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry I posted before in the wrong section so any ideas?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So has anyone tried the blondertongue BTY series of antennas? I mean I have a CM4228 and it still isn't get the job done. I had a CM3023 before.
> 
> 
> This antenna is for single channels and comes out at 75 ohm instead so no need for a balun. It appears that these are the antennas that cable and TV stations use to feed their front ends.
> 
> 
> Not that I want to spend a fortune trying to get the networks but really 45 miles away from a 10 kilowatt station that is behind a 50 foot hill is becoming a challenge
> 
> 
> Ideas comments please?



I doubt that a different antenna in the same place will make a huge improvement over a CM4228. Assuming you already have a good non-overloaded pre-amp like a CM 7777 and interfering channels are not the issue then unless you can re-locate the antenna to a better (higher) place it will be difficult to go from an unusable to a good signal. How close to watchable is the station now? If it is not almost fine with a few too many dropouts then don't expect miracles.


----------



## milehighmike

Greywolf,


My comment regarded the following quote from your post:


"Non HD receivers do not have antenna inputs because they do not have tuners for anything but satellite."


Perhaps I am still misunderstanding you, but I have a non-HD receiver (Dish 311) and it has antenna inputs.


----------



## greywolf

Once again, the quote is out of context. It was part of an answer in response to a question about DirecTV receivers, not Dish Network receivers.


----------



## Nitewatchman

FWIW, I have 2 311 E* receivers as well.


It has a RF input(which could be used for an antenna), but 311 does not have even an internal NTSC tuner. All it does is pass signal from its RF input through to it's RF output, if you're using the 311's RF out jack. So, for example, you can hook up an OTA antenna to 311's RF input jack, then 311 from it's RF out jack to your TV's RF input and still use the signals off the antenna when you aren't using the RF modulator(on channel 3 or 4) on the 311.


"RF Input", Or "ant in" might not really be correct terminology, though, as there's nothing in the receiver to actually "input" signals from an antenna into. It just "passes it through when you aren't outputting signals from the sat receiver via 311's RF modulator(on channel 3 or 4).


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chinatti* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a CM4228 and CM777 preamp on order, and I'll be trying them in the attic (at least initially) to go with my new HR10-250. I know that you want to place the preamp unit as close to the antenna as possible, but I was wondering if the placement of the power supply makes any difference. I could place the power supply up in the attic near the preamp, but I'd have to run an extension cord. I have a more convenient spot where the RG6 goes by a power outlet (at my "distribution" area where all my RG6 converges). If there is no difference, I'll place the power supply there, but if it's advantageous, I'll run the cord and put it in the attic (or alternatively, place it at the other end at the receiver).
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance.



Doesn't really matter, as long as the power is not blocked by an RF Splitter.


----------



## poster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *poster* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the help greywolf. So just so I have this straight, I should wait until my D*HD is hooked up, then i can put the antenna on that box? Thanks for helping me out!



bump, sorry to do this but I am still unsure as to whether or not I should keep this antenna or bring it back to the store. Thanks!


----------



## Nitewatchman

poster,


Why not use, or at least try out the OTA portion of your D* HD receiver with your antenna before taking it back so you can receive(or see if you need a "better" antenna setup) local HD from the broadcast Nets? I must admit, I am confused concerning whether you already have the D* HD receiver, or are waiting for D* to bring it to you when they come to Install your HD setup.


I haven't follwed the D* HD LIL schedule, and I'm not that familiar with D*(as I don't use it)(and someone please correct me if I'm wrong), but I doubt Milwaulkee HD locals are carried LIL over the satellite, yet.


Meaning, you'll probably need to use OTA DTV/HD(over the air)+an antenna to receive HD from some, or all the broadcast nets(ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, Fox, WB, UPN - you may not have affiliates for all 7 in your area providing HD however) from your local broadcasters. Otherwise, all you'll get is SD locals(usually originating from analog stations) via "the dish", if(and you said you are) you are subscribing to D* locals.


In some markets, stations that are Network O&O's for a couple of networks "allow" D* subs to use the D* DNS HD feeds, otherwise, you'll need OTA for non O&O affilaites, or nets that don't provide DNS feeds to D*.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Have you ever seen an XG91 up close and personal?
> 
> It's a huge weather vane, with lots of surface area in the individual elements.
> 
> And that's before you get winter ice buildup!!!
> 
> Better have a very heavy duty mount to prevent twisting.....and a heavy duty rotator.



Well... um... hmmmm....


I had a Winegard HD8200P on my tower before I replaced it with the 91XG. 16' long. 12' wide at the widest point. Used a standard-grade Channel Master rotor for it. That's what the professional installer recommended. Then I put up the 91XG. Need I tell you that it looks tiny in comparison? Those not "in the know" looked at it and were sure that performance would be much, much worse than the 8200P - how could something so small (half the length, and skinny as a rail) outperform something so big?


Those same installers say don't put up a Channel Master 4228 on a rotor or a tower - the wind load is a killer. I'm not an engineer, just a guy who listens to the installers tell their stories about towers that fall over and what people had up on them at the time.


And here in Minnesota, we get plenty of ice. The 91XG, perhaps because it can't operate as a "sail" the way the 4228 can, doesn't put the same load on a mount. And a conventional, $65 rotor is more than enough to hold it stable in even heavy winds.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chinatti* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I know that you want to place the preamp unit as close to the antenna as possible, but I was wondering if the placement of the power supply makes any difference.



You should place the power supply as close to the tuner (not the antenna) as possible. If you have a long cable run after the power supply, your amplified signal will suffer line loss (and potentially interference.)


----------



## Nitewatchman

I disagree Sregener.


All the power supply does is supply power to the amp via the coax. Shouldn't matter where it is placed(unless the power is being blocked by a splitter/etc. that won't pass the power - most preamps require DC power, but most Winegard amps/power supplies use AC), the preamp on the mast is what "effects" the OTA signals, not the power supply.


----------



## AntAltMike

When installing a rotor, you should cut the upper mast as short as possible. For conventional combo antennas, a foot is long enough. For UHF Yagis with corner reflectors, maybe 2 feet. I've installed a lot of the largest Chanel Master and Winegard combo antennas with residential grade rotors and with no auxilliary bearings, and have never had one fail.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *colofan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry I posted before in the wrong section so any ideas?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So has anyone tried the blondertongue BTY series of antennas? I mean I have a CM4228 and it still isn't get the job done. I had a CM3023 before.
> 
> 
> This antenna is for single channels and comes out at 75 ohm instead so no need for a balun. It appears that these are the antennas that cable and TV stations use to feed their front ends.
> 
> 
> Not that I want to spend a fortune trying to get the networks but really 45 miles away from a 10 kilowatt station that is behind a 50 foot hill is becoming a challenge
> 
> 
> Ideas comments please?



I'm assuming you're using a quality preamp already?



Either get the antenna up higher to clear the obstruction or if that's not feasible you could narrow the beamwidth further/increase gain by horizontal stacking. It works for me at 65-130 miles.


The problem with the unweildy 4228 is that it's nearly impossible to stack horizontally unless you're willing to put up two masts. You're much better off with a yagi/corner reflector. Right now if I was starting over I'd probably go for two XG91's. Do some research here on horizontal stacking and I'd be glad to help you as necessary if you want to try. Here's an example: The top two are wide band uhf and the bottom two are high band vhf (7-13).


----------



## poster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> poster,
> 
> 
> Why not use, or at least try out the OTA portion of your D* HD receiver with your antenna before taking it back so you can receive(or see if you need a "better" antenna setup) local HD from the broadcast Nets? I must admit, I am confused concerning whether you already have the D* HD receiver, or are waiting for D* to bring it to you when they come to Install your HD setup.
> 
> 
> I haven't follwed the D* HD LIL schedule, and I'm not that familiar with D*(as I don't use it)(and someone please correct me if I'm wrong), but I doubt Milwaulkee HD locals are carried LIL over the satellite, yet.
> 
> 
> Meaning, you'll probably need to use OTA DTV/HD(over the air)+an antenna to receive HD from some, or all the broadcast nets(ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, Fox, WB, UPN - you may not have affiliates for all 7 in your area providing HD however) from your local broadcasters. Otherwise, all you'll get is SD locals(usually originating from analog stations) via "the dish", if(and you said you are) you are subscribing to D* locals.
> 
> 
> In some markets, stations that are Network O&O's for a couple of networks "allow" D* subs to use the D* DNS HD feeds, otherwise, you'll need OTA for non O&O affilaites, or nets that don't provide DNS feeds to D*.



I tried it, and it seemed like the picture was similar. It is ok, I get all of my locals clearly. I am 9-15 miles from all of the towers. I am sorry I was confusing. I just have normal D*. What I wonder is will this antenna help me get a better picture when I do get D*HD. Any thoughts. Thanks again, and sorry for the confusion.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Have you ever seen an XG91 up close and personal?
> 
> It's a huge weather vane, with lots of surface area in the individual elements.
> 
> And that's before you get winter ice buildup!!!
> 
> Better have a very heavy duty mount to prevent twisting.....and a heavy duty rotator:
> http://www.geocities.com/Figbert/ant...irect91xg.html
> 
> 
> So if you double it, an 8-Bay is about the same windloading as 91XG,
> 
> but in a more compact structure to reduce the torque load.
> 
> 
> =========================================================
> 
> .



You're way off here. The torsional load from the XG91 (and any other uhf yagi/corner reflector I can think of) is easily handled by the CM 9521 rotator. It's really not that long (7ft). The biggest load on the rotator is the length of the lever arm above it. Re-syncing a rotator after a storm is no big deal. Breaking the top off the rotator is.


The 4228 is murder on a rotator due to the added lever arm above the rotator necessitated by the design (and it's weight) not to mention it acts like a sail if pointed up or down wind.


I can't disagree with a sturdy mount, though (who can?).


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *poster* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I tried it, and it seemed like the picture was similar. It is ok, I get all of my locals clearly. I am 9-15 miles from all of the towers. I am sorry I was confusing. I just have normal D*. What I wonder is will this antenna help me get a better picture when I do get D*HD. Any thoughts. Thanks again, and sorry for the confusion.



You can't try OTA HD/DTV reception, or see what it looks like without a ATSC(Digital Television) receiver(and Antenna), such as what is in all D* HD receivers that also must be properly hooked up to your HD display via appripriate connections(Component HD, DVI/etc) in order for you to see the HD "difference".


I'm still confused concerning what Over the air receiver you are currently using with your antenna. If it isn't a ATSC receiver, it sounds like it must be analog only and you are receiving SD analog(in which case it's fairly likely you will see some "ghosts", or "snow" from some of the stations with an indoor antenna), OR you are still receiving the SD locals over the dish(and just don't realize it), which origniate from ANALOG stations and D* retransmits them in "digital" form over the dish, that's not the digital/HD stations.


It should give good instructions in the manual for your D* receiver, I'd think, but if not you can tell us the model # of the "normal" D* receiver, perhaps someone who is familiar with it could tell you more.


In any event, when you get your D* HD receiver installed, it should become clearer. Take the antenna back if you want before then, but you'll probably need to getting another one after you get your D* HD receiver in order to receive HD locals .....


----------



## Marcus Alzona




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *milehighmike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Greywolf,
> 
> 
> My comment regarded the following quote from your post:
> 
> 
> "Non HD receivers do not have antenna inputs because they do not have tuners for anything but satellite."
> 
> 
> Perhaps I am still misunderstanding you, but I have a non-HD receiver (Dish 311) and it has antenna inputs.



Mike - You are correct about this. There are DirecTV non-HD receivers (including the one widely in stores now, the D10) that have antenna inputs. Just because you can get non-HD local channels via the satellites, it doesn't mean you have to get them that way.


Greywolf - You can check out the manuals for the DirecTV non-HD receivers if you'd like verification of this. Here are a couple of samples, both of which have analog OTA inputs:

http://www.directv.com/learn/pdf/Sys...IRECTV_D10.pdf 
http://www.directv.com/learn/pdf/Sys...HNS_SD_HBH.pdf


----------



## greywolf

Now with that I am familiar. Those are antenna thoughputs. There are no OTA tuners in those boxes. It's just a way for people whose TV's only have one antenna connection and no other video inputs to be able to get programming OTA or with CATV with their TV tuner or via satellite with RF out without adding a switch.


----------



## poster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You can't try OTA HD/DTV reception, or see what it looks like without a ATSC(Digital Television) receiver(and Antenna), such as what is in all D* HD receivers that also must be properly hooked up to your HD display via appripriate connections(Component HD, DVI/etc) in order for you to see the HD "difference".
> 
> 
> I'm still confused concerning what Over the air receiver you are currently using with your antenna. If it isn't a ATSC receiver, it sounds like it must be analog only and you are receiving SD analog(in which case it's fairly likely you will see some "ghosts", or "snow" from some of the stations with an indoor antenna), OR you are still receiving the SD locals over the dish(and just don't realize it), which origniate from ANALOG stations and D* retransmits them in "digital" form over the dish, that's not the digital/HD stations.
> 
> 
> It should give good instructions in the manual for your D* receiver, I'd think, but if not you can tell us the model # of the "normal" D* receiver, perhaps someone who is familiar with it could tell you more.
> 
> 
> In any event, when you get your D* HD receiver installed, it should become clearer. Take the antenna back if you want before then, but you'll probably need to getting another one after you get your D* HD receiver in order to receive HD locals .....



Thanks for the reply. I think I am seeing analog channels. My Panny says it is in 480i. I have the original box that came with my D* when i got it 3 years ago. It is the crappy one that is slow. I don't see a number on the front. I know its a Phillips though. I will keep the antenna, since it will come in handy in a couple of weeks when my HD box arrives. Thanks again for your input. Greatly appreciated by this noob!


----------



## Marcus Alzona




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greywolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Now with that I am familiar. Those are antenna thoughputs. There are no OTA tuners in those boxes. It's just a way for people whose TV's only have one antenna connection and no other video inputs to be able to get programming OTA or with CATV with their TV tuner or via satellite with RF out without adding a switch.



Yeah - the DirecTV receivers don't have analog tuners. Just pointing out that, to be accurate, the receivers (the non-HD DirecTV ones in question) *do* have ports labeled "Antenna/Cable In". Which, of course, work exactly as you described (i.e. as a throughput). (I wonder if the DishNetwork receivers that others have mentioned also work this way.)


----------



## bmcent1

Hey all,

Sorry if this is long, but I really want to make sure I understand this stuff correctly, or if I don't, that many people here will kindly set me straight







... For anyone out there with experience using Longly-Rice or another signal propagation model, can you check my math / let me know if I am close to doing this calculation right?


I'm running the SPLAT open source Longley-Rice program. (As an aside, if I'm doing this right, and if it proves to be a reasonably good predictor of the channels I end up receiving, I will try to put some of this functionality up on a web site for others to use...)


An equation in the man page says:


"To determine the signal-to-noise (SNR) ratio at remote location where

random Johnson (thermal) noise is the primary limiting factor in recep-

tion:


SNR = T - NJ - L + G - NF"


T is the ERP of the transmitter in dBW

NJ is Johnson Noise in dBW, given as -136 dBW for a 6 MHz TV channel

L is the Longly-Rice path loss computed by the program

G is gain in dB over isotropic

NF is the receiver noise figure in dB


My first question is, can you just add and subtract when the units include dBW and dB or is there some conversion between those two units?


To convert from ERP in kW (found on FCC queries) to dBW, I have been using this equation:


T = 10 * Log (ERP in kW * 1000)


Here is an example, using a 1000kW transmitter, 170dB L-R computed path loss, an antenna with a 16dB gain, no preamp, and a 7dB noise figure for a receiver:


T = 10 * Log (1000*1000) = 60 dBW


SNR = 60 - (-136) - 170 + 16 - 7 = 35


SPLAT also recommends a Signal Margin calculation to compute how much more signal is available over the minimum to a achieve a specific signal to noise ratio. At least 15.5 dB above SNR is recommended for ATSC DTV reception. So, Signal Margin is computed as:


SM = SNR - 15.5 = 35 - 15.5

SM = 19.5


If I understand this correctly, this means there is an extra 19.5 dB signal available over the minimum necessary to receive that station with that antenna, assuming the L-R prediction for this tower and this receiving location (granted, those are big IFs.)


Several sources have recommended L-R offers widely variable results but that if you build in a margin of 10dB the preditions start to line up pretty well with real, measured results. I take that to mean if (SM - 10) is still a positive number, this is a good indicator that reception for these parameters should be achieved.


Am I correct, or on the right track? Or do I need to go back to the books?! Thanks!!


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Marcus Alzona* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (I wonder if the DishNetwork receivers that others have mentioned also work this way.)



That's("throughput, no internal tuner) how I said Dish 311 receiver is on post in one of my posts previous page of this thread .... I can't comment on any other specific D* SD receivers. I've "tested it" to make sure.


You can't tune the locals from the box, as there is no OTA tuner. I don't subscribe to E* LIL, but I think I'd read somewhere that with the 311 anyway, the LIL locals via sat are on different channel numbers.


----------



## Nitewatchman

bmcent,


I haven't used splat but I think I can comment on a couple of things in your post.


I did read the Doug Lung article ( http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...02.02.05.shtml ) on it, and looks like it would be fun to "play with". Looks like I'd have to install linux(or Sun Solaris for x86 - I have ver 8 around here somewhere+ was using it on a machine(keyword WAS) on a partition somewhere(it won't be the 1st time that's happened). Perhaps I might get around to doing that someday.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bmcent1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> To convert from ERP in kW (found on FCC queries)



I'm sure you know this -- but just in case -- if the station in question is using a directional antenna pattern, make sure you calculate ERP properly for the "direction"(such as bearing from the tower to your antenna) or "directions" being used. Make sure not to miss the "pattern rotation" info as well, as, if there is a 30 degree pattern rotation for instance, the relative field strength listed for, say 0 degrees would actually be correct for 30 degrees.


This calulation is :


Relative field strength Squared x "max" watts ERP(the ERP listed on FCC site for the station) = Watts ERP being sent in that direction.


For example, if info on FCC site on a station's antenna pattern shows a pattern rotation of 0 degrees, and a relative field strength value of .550 for 130 degree true azimuth bearing from their tower, and the stations ERP for a relative field value of 1.000 is 250KW ERP (This will be the ERP listed in the operating permit - STA or licensed facility/etc)the ERP sent at 130 degrees should be :


(.550x.550) x 250,000 watts = 75,625 Watts ERP being sent towards 130 degrees in this case IF the actual antenna pattern matches the info on FCC site.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bmcent1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> To convert from ERP in kW (found on FCC queries) to dBW, I have been using this equation:
> 
> 
> T = 10 * Log (ERP in kW * 1000)



According to this (if you plug in 60dbW at following link), your calcuation here is correct :

http://www.vernonboyce.org/wattsconverter.htm 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bmcent1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> At least 15.5 dB above SNR is recommended for ATSC DTV reception. So, Signal Margin is computed as:



Yes, ATSC documents say 15.9 db SNR (Signal over noise ratio) is the theoretical minimum signal required for perfect DTV reception. "real world" results of course may differ.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bmcent1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I understand this correctly, this means there is an extra 19.5 dB signal available over the minimum necessary to receive that station with that antenna, assuming the L-R prediction for this tower and this receiving location (granted, those are big IFs.)



Sounds right to me.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bmcent1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Several sources have recommended L-R offers widely variable results but that if you build in a margin of 10dB the preditions start to line up pretty well with real, measured results. I take that to mean if (SM - 10) is still a positive number, this is a good indicator that reception for these parameters should be achieved.



Seems reasonable, and 10db seems a good bit of insurance to me for most circumstances. Athough, in many cases(In a real sense, not a predicted sense) I don't think you are going to need as much as 10db "signal margin" over the ~16db SNR minimum required for reception.


You could do a study for your location, and then "test" it in the real world using a variable attenuator to pad down the signal until it gets down to threshold(just above or at a signal lock, where signal is just decoded), and hopefully, you'll be able to get an idea if the software's prediction for "L" is in the ballpark based on how much you need to pad the signal(which should hopefully be close to SM). Of course, some variables here could involve differences in various RF performance issues concerning front-end of any specific receiver model - But, it seems to me 16db SNR minimum threshold required is a good rule of thumb to use.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bmcent1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Am I correct, or on the right track?



Seems like it to me given the recommended formulas they suggest you use, but I'm certianly no expert ...


Update: Another variable to factor into this which you didn't mention that may be of some importance, may be the beam tilt of the transmitting antenna. The studies I'd received from a friend using comsoft seemed to indicate that beam tilt was a factor it could take into account. I don't see any specific mention about beam tilt+splat in the Doug Lung article.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bmcent1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I really want to make sure I understand this stuff correctly, or if I don't, that many people here will kindly set me straight
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm running the SPLAT open source Longley-Rice program.
> 
> 
> An equation in the man page says: SNR = T - NJ - L + G - NF"
> 
> My first question is, can you just add and subtract when the units include dBW and dB or is there some conversion between those two units?
> 
> 
> To convert from ERP in kW (found on FCC queries) to dBW, I have been using this equation: T = 10 * Log (ERP in kW * 1000)
> 
> 
> SPLAT also recommends a Signal Margin calculation to compute how much more signal is available over the minimum to a achieve a specific signal to noise ratio. At least 15.5 dB above SNR is recommended for ATSC DTV reception. So, Signal Margin is computed as:
> 
> 
> SM = SNR - 15.5 = 35 - 15.5
> 
> SM = 19.5
> 
> 
> If I understand this correctly, this means there is an extra 19.5 dB signal available over the minimum necessary to receive that station with that antenna, assuming the L-R prediction for this tower and this receiving location (granted, those are big IFs.)
> 
> 
> Several sources have recommended L-R offers widely variable results but that if you build in a margin of 10dB the preditions start to line up pretty well with real, measured results. I take that to mean if (SM - 10) is still a positive number, this is a good indicator that reception for these parameters should be achieved.
> 
> 
> Am I correct, or on the right track? Or do I need to go back to the books?! Thanks!!



1. In the Basic Gain/Loss Equation you first take the Transmitter ERP and convert it to dBm:

dBkW = 10 log (ERP in kW), dBm = dBkW + 60 dB (that's 30 dB for every factor of 1000).

You then add the Gain (dBi, not dBd) for each antenna and subtrace the several different dB Loss values.

That yields the received signal strength, Rin in dBm.

SNR (dB) = Rin (dBm) - Nin (dBm),

where the Thermal noise is calculated using Boltzman's constant.


2. The Signal Margin (aka Fade Margin) is the amount of signal in excess of the absolute minimum

required SNR for ATSC under perfect, non-fading conditions.


ATSC typically is said to require 15.5 dB SNR, although it varies from chip to chip.

For example, the much hailed Zenith/LG 5th Gen Prototype was tested and found to meet the 15.5 dB SNR value for moderate signal strength, but it required 15.9 dB SNR

under weak signal strength conditions. The Linx/Micronas Prototype was 15.1 dB SNR under moderate and weak signal strength conditions.


3. As you said, the Individual Location Longley-Rice (ILLR or simply L-R) simulation results have been found to underestimate the path loss in on-the-air test studies,

which is a known shortcoming of the original model since it did not have a sub-module to calculate the effect of local Clutter Loss.


FCC-00-185, "Establishment of an Improved Model for Predicting the Broadcast Television Field Strength Received at Individual Locations", May 2000, recognizes

that the ILLR model results need to have a Clutter Loss calculation and provides recommendations for various environments (I think I'm in the 7 dB category).


A Clutter Loss calculation module is one of the major selling points for the various commercially available VHF/UHF Propagation Prediction Programs.

They are usually carefully tailored to a particular urban environment, based on either ground-based or space-based radar measurements.


RADIO MOBILE includes a simplified Clutter Loss calculation module that is perhaps better suited for short inter-urban microwave and wireless systems

than for long distance DTV paths. So I don't use it. I don't know what is in SPLAT.


4. The amount of Fade Margin that you "need" is probably the most difficult to determine.


a. First of all, it is supposed to be the amount of additional signal strength needed to overcome all but a very small fraction of the multipath signal dropouts.

Under most tested multipath conditions, it was under 10 dB, if it worked at all.

See my 8/16 and subsequent posts in the fol thread re LG and LINX test reports:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&page=11&pp=30 


b. Second, it includes a guestimate for how much signal is lost due to antenna placement for the worst case channel frequency.

This signal "banding effect" would be different for each channel frequency, as discussed in fol. thread:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html 


c. Third, it includes all of the "unknown" fudge factors, such as various underestimation errors.

In the thread sited below, I'll post some actual measurements for Preamp Noise Figures that are nowhere close to the manufacturer's spec values, with a couple of notable exceptions.

In So. Calif. (and other parts of the country), we get nasty temperature inversions that can cause a big signal loss when the signal gets scattered away, or big signal increases when it gets scattered in your direction.

I also will add some additional references re how much Sensitivity is lost (3-10+ dB) due to VSWR mismatch between the Antenna and the DTV Tuner (or Preamp).

I'm still struggling with how much to assume for tree, attic and indoor loss since these values have been found to have a very wide range.


5. I have been collecting data for several months now, using my DTV FADE MARGIN CALCULATOR spread sheet

to compare actual reception results for different locations to ANTENNAWEB.ORG and RADIO MOBILE path loss calculations.

The DTV FM CALC spread sheet also includes detailed explanations and cites

references for the various loss assumptions.

In the not too distant future, I'll also post the comparison results in the fol thread:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1122107959


----------



## amirm

I thought I start a thread and see how people have managed to exceed the level of reception predicted by antennaweb.com. Let me start with my situation and reason for asking for this information.


At our regular house on a hill overlooking Seattle, I can pick up many digital stations with just a piece of wire. So life is great here. However, we have a vacation home about 40 miles northwest of here on Whidbey Island. The house faces the Puget Sound but the direction facing Seattle digital stations has a row of very tall pine trees in front of it about half a mile away from the roofline.


Antennaweb predicted that I would only be able to pick up two stations to the north (opposite of Seattle) and indeed, I could easily get these with a standard attic antenna the home owner left us. Hoping to do better, I went out and bought a Channel Master 4228, DB-8 style antenna and paired it with a 7777 pre-amp. The antenna is outside on a mast on top of a two-story house. We then aligned the antenna toward Seattle and was jumping with joy when the receiver claimed to have found 7 stations. But my hopes were dashed when I saw that half were shopping channels, another one was a religious channel! The only was somewhat useful to us was PAX. All of these stations are in Bellevue it seems which is both closer to the house and has a more clear view of the antenna.


I was really hoping to get PBS or one of the major networks but no amount of fine tuning of the antenna seems to get us there. And hence this thread.


So have people achieved better results in general? If so, what equipment did you use? Are there more sensitive receivers? I use the LG DVD+ATSC tuner and the tuner card in my Media Center PC btw.


Has anyone modified the 4228 to have two baluns and a combiner rather than the cheap feed lines they use? And if so, how much more gain do you get out of it? I noticed that DB-8 from anteannasdirect comes with these. Does it work better than 4228 as a result?


Amir


----------



## Trip in VA

Antennaweb is very conservative and often seems to underestimate what can be received.


For example, last time I used them they told me I should only be able to get ONE digital station. Without moving my antenna I get 7 (plus another that's not on the air yet).


- Trip


----------



## Nitewatchman

Holl_ands,


Just got a chance to look at some of your fine work you've been doing with your DTV signal fade margin spreadsheet, and DTV signal overload spreadsheet ...


I'm wondering about something, though :


If I change ft (relative field polar plot - B21) in your Fade margin calulator spreadsheet from 1.000 to .207 (as shown on FCC site for KFMB-DT's biggest Null at 270 degree bearing from their stick) -- the calulation for "lta"(B59) only shows -5.7db antenna pattern loss, even though I beleive it is actually about a ~14~15db or so null(that's via quick "in my head" calulation using -3db for each 2x decrease in power).


AS I posted in my last post, A correct formula(according to broadcast engineers I have talked to) to calulate ERP from the relative field value for an antenna pattern given a particular azimuth heading is as follows :


Relative field value(V/m) SQAURED x WATTS ERP(that equal 1.000 relative field value) = ERP in watts sent in that direction.


In this case, for 270 degrees from KFMB-DT :


(.207x.207) x 703,000 watts = 30.1 KW ERP, or approx 14~15db or so less than if you were getting 1.000 relative field value or 703KW ERP.


This doesn't seem quite the same as what is occuring from the 10*Log(B21) "calulation" in B59(or B60 for "preamp" column). ... Am I missing something?



-------------------------




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In the thread sited below, I'll post some actual measurements for Preamp Noise Figures that are nowhere close to the manufacturer's spec values, with a couple of notable exceptions.



FYI, One URL you posted in your most recent post on that thread in San Diego forum thread is currently broken(you left the "s" off at the end) This is the URL you're looking for :

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In So. Calif. (and other parts of the country), we get nasty temperature inversions that can cause a big signal loss when the signal gets scattered away, or big signal increases when it gets scattered in your direction.



While I would imagine this could be more of an issue when significant terrain obstructions are a significant issue for local reception(or perhaps with the sticks(broadcast towers) are on mountains with the population at much lower elevations ....


Nevertheless -- Generally speaking, from most of the "info" I've seen, including my own experience with local "RF line of sight" reception, and "DX" reception via Tropo scatter/ducting: I did not think it common enhanced Troposperic scatter signal propagation brought about by temperature inversions are generally likely to cause significant signal increases/losses for signals received via "normal" "RF line of sight" propagation.


I would be interested in finding out more on this. Any comments from the broadcast engineers who post here, or, Could you provide any additional info or links(such as to field test data) concerning Troposperic scatter signal propagation brought about by temperature inversions causing significant signal increases/loss of local, "RF line of sight" signals ?


Certianly, Co-channel interference issues occuring due to enhanced signal propagation via tropo scatter/ducting can be a significant issue for many areas of the country(The Gulf coast states probably particuarly so due to the flat terrain, lots of water and common occurance of temp inversions), especially for viewers using antennas with minmal directivity, or if the interferening, distant co-channel station is in the same direction as the desired local co-channel signal.


Doug Lung has a couple of excellent articles concerning enhanced signal propagation, which are available here :

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...-signals.shtml 

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...pagation.shtml 


There is also excellent explanation of various "modes" of VHF/UHF signal propagation signal propagation at following site :

http://www.dxfm.com 


And, here's some of BBC's excellent info on Temp inversions+reception :

http://www.ravfm.com/bbc_interferance.pdf 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I also will add some additional references re how much Sensitivity is lost (3-10+ dB) due to VSWR mismatch between the Antenna and the DTV Tuner (or Preamp).



I'm looking forward to seeing your post on this. There was at least one good discussion about VSWR earlier in this, or another thread here I believe(I think you'll find it in this thread with a search for either VSWR or SWR), and there are references to this issue concerning DTV in the following articles :

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...antennas.shtml 

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...-receive.shtml 


Note : There was also an article in TVtechnology at one point which gave expected VSWR for a few popular receive antennas, but I can't seem to find it.


Although there is no practical, legal way I know of for "viewers" to measure VSWR of their receive antenna system, and it's likely to vary quite a bit for many reasons -- Nevertheless, It would be nice if manufacturers would specify expected VSWR for the TV bands/frequencies their antennas "cover" ....



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm still struggling with how much to assume for tree, attic and indoor loss since these values have been found to have a very wide range.



Yes, it would seem to me those factors would seem difficult to "pin" down to any sort of meaninfgul, narrow range - It would be nice if an average caluclated from many field tests would be useful, but I'm not so sure that is the case.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Holl_ands,
> 
> 
> Just got a chance to look at some of your fine work you've been doing with your DTV signal fade margin spreadsheet, and DTV signal overload spreadsheet ...
> 
> 
> AS I posted in my last post, A correct formula(according to broadcast engineers I have talked to) to calulate ERP from the relative field value for an antenna pattern given a particular azimuth heading is as follows :
> 
> 
> Relative field value SQAURED x WATTS ERP(that equal 1.000 relative field value)
> 
> 
> This doesn't seem quite the same as what is occuring from the 10*Log(B21) "calulation" in B59(or B60 for "preamp" column). ... Am I missing something?
> 
> 
> -------------------------
> 
> Yes, it would seem to me those factors would seem difficult to "pin" down to any sort of meaninfgul, narrow range - It would be nice if an average caluclated from many field tests would be useful, but I'm not so sure that is the case.



1. My mistake, it should be 20 log (field strength value) vice 10 log ().

By definition, "Field Strength" is measured in volts per meter and not power.
http://www.its.bldrdoc.gov/fs-1037/dir-015/_2219.htm 

I'll post a corrected spread sheet in the near future after I add some more references re VSWR. Thanks for taking the time to check it over.

[I remember telling myself that it's volts and not power, but somehow it didn't make it into the Fade Margin spread sheets. The others are not affected.]


2. I fixed the URL. Thanks again.


3. Tropospheric propagation is usually due to propagation physics involving scattering off of inhomogenities (dust, rain, turbulence) in the atmosphere.

See fol report that addresses various propagation modes for signals in San Diego interfering with Goldstone radio telescope facilities way North of us in the Mohave Desert:
http://ipnpr.jpl.nasa.gov/tmo/progre...2-148/148D.pdf 

Unless you are using 15+ foot dishes, it's probably not a viable DX mode.


4. Thermal Inversions are a different phemenoma which affect TV signals by bending or "refracting" the signal.

We usually call it "ducting" when a high flying signal that would normally not reach us is bent back towards the earth.


The Longley-Rice model will accept Relative Permittivity, Ground Conductivity and Surface Refractivity values for your "local" area.

Most references would have you believe that these are the same throughout the entire So. Calif. region, from the coast to the mountains to the desert.

Refractivity actually changes dramatically throughout the day and throughout the region (see fig 9):
http://anquetil.colorado.edu/~arlowr...Refract_RS.pdf 
http://home.cogeco.ca/~dxinfo/tropo_wam.html 


Most propagation models do not have the benefit of near-real-time data from GPS Occultations and/or thermal profiles from Weather Balloons.


5. I've seen those refs. They are all excellent. In fact I've cited most of them in the past.


6. The best articles re degradation of DTV sensitivity due to VSWR are by O. Bendov in IEEE journals.

They seem to say that the interconnection distance makes no difference.

(But isn't it small delay, zero dB echos causing the degradation?)

And very poor VSWR (typ 2:1 to 3:1) in most broadband antennas is apparently only slightly less

than the poor VSWR in the ATSC Tuner (maybe 2:1)....aaaccckkkk.

And I haven't seen any data re VSWR for Preamps, although I would hope that the broadband nature

of the device would keep VSWR under control better than the tuned front end in an ATSC Tuner.

Theoretically, a carefully designed antenna/preamp or antenna/tuner combination could minimize this degradation.


7. See my 6/8/05 post #2080 in this thread re Kerry Cozad's live antenna range measurements of various indoor and outdoor antennas.

Also see my 3/28/05 post #1743 re Degradation of DTV Sensitivy due to antenna VSWR. (with more to come in the near future).


8. Longley-Rice is a probabilistic model derived from mountains of signal path loss measurements that for the most part ignores all of the site unique "assumptions" found in my spread sheet. The same can be said for Clutter Loss, Attic/Indoor Loss, VSWR Sensitivity degradation across the frequency band, et. al. Of course these predictions are only going to yield ballpark guestimates. My goal is to try to reduce these uncertainties, or at least provide insight as to the magnitude of the various assumtions (unlike the one-size-fits-all approach in antennaweb.org.)


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> By definition, "Field Strength" is measured in volts per meter and not power.



Yes. However, FCC operating permits specify ERP in watts and I think it's an easier "concept" to understand for many folks who, I think in some cases it may help if a null in their direction is expressed in watts(and perhaps the associated db reduction compared to main lobe) ...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 3. Tropospheric propagation is usually due to propagation physics involving scattering off of inhomogenities (dust, rain, turbulence) in the atmosphere.



While I would agree dust/rain/turbulance is involved with "everyday" Troposcatter propagation, My understanding is It usually has more to do with the refractive capabilites of the "air" in lower levels of atmosphere, involving small changes in temperature, dew point/humidity and barometric pressure. Beyond RF line of sight, signals via tropo scatter are typically weak+fluttery(but can be quite strong and steady given the right conditions, that do not necessarily involve ducting), and generally have a maximum receiveable distance from about 300~500 miles --- on an everyday basis, with typical weak, tropo signals you need VERY sensitive receive equipment for the beyond 300 mile variety ... It's the same "basic" reason why "RF line of sight" is different that "actual line of sight". It's ALLWAYS present to at least some degree.


There is an excellent explanation of Tropo scatter(not ducting) which can be found here in the signal propagation section at www.dxfm.com site I also referred in my last post, and I would encourage you to read that full section on tropo scatter and tropo ducting if you want to learn more. Follows is just the first paragraph of the info on that page concerning "everyday" troposcatter propagation :


quote:


"Tropo-scatter is always present to some degree just about everywhere. Tropospheric scatter at FM and TV frequencies is caused when the paths of radio signals are altered by slight changes in the refractive index in the lower atmosphere caused by air turbulence, and small changes in temperature, humidity and barometric pressure. The signal is scattered in random fashion. The tiny portion of the transmitted signal that is scattered forward and downward from what is called the "common scattering volume" is responsible for signal paths longer than the normal line-of-sight horizon.


:end quote


And, on that same page, the first paragraph of an excellent section explaining Tropo ducting and a bit of how it works(again, see the full info in signal propation section on Dxfm.com site for an excellent, detailed explanation) :


:quote


"Tropospheric Ducting - This is where things start getting interesting for the FM and TV DXer. Strong temperature inversions with very well defined boundaries sometimes form from as high as several thousand feet above the surface of the Earth. If the inversion is strong enough, a signal crossing the boundary into the inversion will be bent sufficiently to return it to Earth. The inversion boundary layer and the surface of the Earth form the upper and lower walls of a "duct" that acts much like an open-ended wave guide. Signals "trapped" in the duct follow the curvature of the Earth, sometimes for hundreds or even thousands of miles. In the tropics and over large bodies of water, strong inversions that cover large geographic areas are quite common, and stable ducts can remain in tact for days on end. This form of ducting is responsible for fairly reliable propagation between California and Hawaii at VHF and higher frequencies.


: end quote



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 4. Thermal Inversions are a different phemenoma which affect TV signals by bending or "refracting" the signal. We usually call it "ducting" when a high flying signal that would normally not reach us is bent back towards the earth.



That is somewhat correct in that ducting is very "different" than troposcatter. However, refraction is involved with both, and temp inversions can be involved with tropo enhanced signal propagation without true ducting occuring.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 7. See my 6/8/05 post #2080 in this thread re Kerry Cozad's live antenna range measurements of various indoor and outdoor antennas. Also see my 3/28/05 post #1743 re Degradation of DTV Sensitivy due to antenna VSWR. (with more to come in the near future).



Thanks, and thanks for your add'l(and future) VSWR info.


[Update 9/4 - 04:00 Z ) ah hah! I had searched a couple of times for more info from Cozrad's studies mentioned in one of the Doug Lung articles and looks like I finally found it via one of the URL's you provided elsewhere - server has timed out a couple of times while I've tried to download the powerpoint file, but hopefully I'll get to check it out soon :

https://secure.connect.pbs.org/confe...ns/TC05_43.htm 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 8. Longley-Rice is a probabilistic model derived from mountains of signal path loss measurements that for the most part ignores all of the site unique "assumptions" found in my spread sheet. The same can be said for Clutter Loss, Attic/Indoor Loss, VSWR Sensitivity degradation across the frequency band, et. al.



At least it's better than FCC's contour prediction methodology(IMO and in most circumstances, anyway), which I don't think even tries to take terrain into account other than involving TX ANT HAAT, which seems to me to have very limited usefulness in many situations ... Unless the terrain in the entire service area is ALL "average" -- meaning Flat ...


[end update]



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My goal is to try to reduce these uncertainties, or at least provide insight as to the magnitude of the various assumtions



Good luck! The amount of work+time and effort you have put into these issues+digging up info is much appreciated -- I'm sure there are quite a few folks out here like myself who enjoy reading many of your fine posts and the info/references/etc. you've posted -- BUT in my case anyway, I do not allways have the extra time to respond in an "adequete" manner ..


----------



## holl_ands

Clarification re "Field Strength" correction:


The FCC data base lists the transmitter ERP (Effective Radiated Power) in kW,

but this is the value attained only in those directions where the antenna Field Strength plot is 1.0.

The ERP is actually the product of the power delivered to the antenna times the maximum gain of the antenna system.

(If you search APPLICATION LIST, you might find the actual transmitter power.)


The FCC data base also contains the transmit antenna polar plot, expressed in Field Strength (volts/m)

rather than the more commonly encountered Power Gain (dB) plot.

Note that the plot is normalized to 1.0 at the point of maximum gain.

Hence loss in any other direction is found by calculating 20 log (Field Strength).

This method was probably chosen because it emphasizes the usually small variations.


==========================================================

re BEAM TILT:


Unfortunately, it isn't easy to find Antenna Beam Tilt info on the FCC Query page,

other than listing the broadcast antenna model number, which is usually so old

it is no longer found on the manufacturer's websites and even if it was, the

beam tilt may be tailored to individual locations.


If you search the APPLICATION LIST, you may eventually find that particular application

that just happens to contain an exhibit containing this non-mandatory information.

However, it will probably only be valid for certain selected (maximum gain) azimuths and

doesn't describe the elevation antenna pattern throughout all azimuths.

This problem was discussed in the fol. formal comment to the FCC:
http://www.h-e.com/pdfs/mb03-15pet.pdf 


Since the antenna gain pattern is three dimensional, what is needed is a geographical map

that depicts the ACTUAL GAIN throughout the coverage area.


See Bob Chase's earlier post #2440 on 7/31/05 re being too close to the tower,

including some transmit beam tilt curves (he's broadcast engineer in Houston).


and a few more refs:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/On-RF/F_Lung.shtml 
http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...esRhodes.shtml 
http://www.dielectric.com/broadcast/slotted.asp 
http://www.tcibr.com/PDFs/881webp.pdf 


At a healthy distance from the tower, the transmit beam tilt should have been designed to maximize gain

where it is needed most and presumably causes minimal beam tilt loss when predicting signal levels.


I don't think RADIO MOBILE (or SPLAT?) include beam tilt loss at shorter distances,

since there does not appear to be an easy way to enter data for a specific broadcast antenna.

Of course this would be more of a concern for Los Angeles with the towers located 5000 feet above the city.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Clarification re "Field Strength" correction:
> 
> 
> The FCC data base lists the transmitter ERP (Effective Radiated Power) in kW,
> 
> but this is the value attained only in those directions where the antenna Field Strength plot is 1.0. The FCC data base also contains the transmit antenna polar plot, expressed in Field Strength (volts/m)
> 
> rather than the more commonly encountered Power Gain (dB) plot.
> 
> Note that the plot is normalized to 1.0 at the point of maximum gain.



Yes. Good clarification. See the formula in my posts above to caluclate ERP(if desired) for relative field strength values other than 1.000.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hence loss in any other direction is found by calculating 20 log (Field Strength).



Absolutely, that is ONE way of doing it.


Another way is to calculate ERP for the relative field strength value other than 1.000, and then calculate -3db loss for every "1/2'ing of power".



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This method was probably chosen because it emphasizes the usually small variations.



Especially in this day of TX antennas side mounted to towers, and increased co-channel conflicts with both the analogs+digitals on the air, It is not uncommon to find directional antenna patterns(and DTV STA's especially) with significant variations. It's also more common with LP analog stations and translators, and possibly somewhat not unusual in situations when the population desired to be served by a stations coverage area are in certian directions from the tower(especially when the transmitters are located away from the market), or due to "geographic" reasons. For instance, there might not be much reason for a chicago station transmitting from sears tower to squirt much signal towards Lake Michigan.


For instance, I'd call KFMB-DT's -13.7 db null to the west (.207 v/m relative field strenth shown for their pattern at 270 degrees) significant, and it is not uncommon to find patterns with relative field strength values lower than .1, which is a very "significant" variation.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The ERP is actually the product of the power delivered to the antenna times the maximum gain of the antenna system
> 
> (neither of which is readily found in the data base).



It's usually there(except for STA's) if you do a little digging.


The transmitter power output,, max. gain of transmitting antenna and transmission line loss, among other details can be found in CDBS/FCC info In the applications send FCC for license to cover(their CP), or CP apps. If you use TV query, and chose the "detailed info+CDBS links" option, for each "entry" that results there is a "application list" link. IF you click on that link, a list of all the stations applications appears. At far right, is often a blue "application" link. If you click on this, you'll be taken to the application itself, and for instance, if it's an application for "license to cover", their will be a form, and in the "tech box" portion of the form, the details you are looking for are available.


For instance, here is KFMB-DT's latest "license to cover" app, File # BLCDT-20000302AKK, granted by FCC on 3/22/2000 :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/w...ility_id=42122 


As you can see, in the sec. III "Engineering" of the form, it shows KFMB-DT using :


Transmitter output power : 12.64 dBk 18.37 kW

Transmission line loss : 0.54 dB

Antenna input power : 12.1 dBk (note: this is TPO - Transmission line loss)

Maximum Antenna power gain : 16.37 dB

Maximum effective radiated power : 28.5 dBk 703 kW



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, the FCC data base does not contain info re Antenna Beam Tilt,



Probably best to go to the station's engineer's for info on beam tilt, but, You CAN sometimes find info on beam tilt in exhibits(some are available from downloading PDF from "within" the applications") attached to the station's applications sent to FCC - which are often accessable as I described above. The exhibits attached to the applications are sometimes available for download, but oftentimes they are not. Other interesting technical details can also sometimes be found in such attached exhibits, which are sometimes have such titles as "Comprehensive techical exhibit", or "antenna elevation/gain exhibit"/etc/etc/etc. ]


For instance, here's a link to an application to modify a construction permit for WDKY-DT 4 in Central KY. (Note: the station has since filed a license to cover the facilities described in this application+attached exhibits, the license was recently granted by FCC).

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/w...&fac_num=64017 


Near bottom of the form, you will see a list of exhibits including such details as antenna elevation pattern, directional azimuth pattern/etc, and links to two 2 PDF files which contain those exhibits :


WDKY-DT antenna pattern data :
http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs...ibit_id=188903 


WDKY comprehensive technical exhibit dated nov 2003) - Note - IF I recall correctly this is a somewhat large file) :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs...ibit_id=188904


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I thought I start a thread and see how people have managed to exceed the level of reception predicted by antennaweb.com. Let me start with my situation and reason for asking for this information.
> 
> 
> At our regular house on a hill overlooking Seattle, I can pick up many digital stations with just a piece of wire. So life is great here. However, we have a vacation home about 40 miles northwest of here on Whidbey Island. The house faces the Puget Sound but the direction facing Seattle digital stations has a row of very tall pine trees in front of it about half a mile away from the roofline.
> 
> 
> Antennaweb predicted that I would only be able to pick up two stations to the north (opposite of Seattle) and indeed, I could easily get these with a standard attic antenna the home owner left us. Hoping to do better, I went out and bought a Channel Master 4228, DB-8 style antenna and paired it with a 7777 pre-amp. The antenna is outside on a mast on top of a two-story house. We then aligned the antenna toward Seattle and was jumping with joy when the receiver claimed to have found 7 stations. But my hopes were dashed when I saw that half were shopping channels, another one was a religious channel! The only was somewhat useful to us was PAX. All of these stations are in Bellevue it seems which is both closer to the house and has a more clear view of the antenna.
> 
> 
> I was really hoping to get PBS or one of the major networks but no amount of fine tuning of the antenna seems to get us there. And hence this thread.
> 
> 
> So have people achieved better results in general? If so, what equipment did you use? Are there more sensitive receivers? I use the LG DVD+ATSC tuner and the tuner card in my Media Center PC btw.
> 
> 
> Has anyone modified the 4228 to have two baluns and a combiner rather than the cheap feed lines they use? And if so, how much more gain do you get out of it? I noticed that DB-8 from anteannasdirect comes with these. Does it work better than 4228 as a result?
> 
> 
> Amir



To know what signals you should receive you need a prediction like Antennaweb used to make, unfortunately the current predictions are so pessimistic that you can't see what might be borderline stations even by inputting a nearby address at the top of a hill with a multi-story house. If you can figure out how to run the radiomobile program then you can see the field strength predicted at your house for each station. You can then use the old fcc grade B contour levels of 36 microvolts/meter VHF and 41 microvolts per meter UHF as rough threshhold levels to see what stations you might get. Even better would be to check the spreadsheets that holl_ands has posted to get a more accurate idea of the threshhold to use. If you have any fairly close stations an important possibility is overload in the pre-amp or TV; holl_ands has posted info on that as well. If you don't have something significant wrong like overload then the possibility of major improvements over the 4228 plus 7777 in the same antenna location for UHF stations are not very good. If you are missing out on VHF stations then you can definitely improve on the 4228- especially for channels 7&8 or in the unlikely possiblity you have a digital channel in the 2-6 range.


----------



## deconvolver

(Edit) As pointed out by holl_ands I read the fcc document too quickly; the first fcc document below gives level for NTSC *not* ATSC so that's not the reason for antennaweb's pessimism. Oh well...


I think I know why Antennaweb has switched to such a pessimistic threshhold value. For SHVIA viewer eligibility to receive distant networks the fcc has established threshhold levels to use with Longley-Rice predictions that are about 20dB more pessimistic than the original levels used to estimate coverage contours. See this document for the new levels that were set to include fade margins:
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...7cfr73.683.pdf 

More recently the fcc has added a clutter loss for the UHF band of about an additional 6dB depending on land use category, see here:
http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineeri...0/fcc00185.doc 

Put together this seems to create fairly pessimistic predictions. A quick check of these levels with the output from radiomobile for predictions to my house seemed about as pessimistic as antennaweb now is. This will be good news for those that want to receive distant networks from satellites because they can't get their local network OTA, but the predictions don't seem very relevant to those with good antenna installations. One reason the predictions may be so pessimistic is that although the fcc set the levels so the predictions had about the same number of overpredictions as underpredictions they ignored all sources of reception difficulties other than signal level like multipath or interfering channels when making the study.


----------



## holl_ands

Nitewatchman: I tweaked the wording above re how "easy" it is to access antenna infomation in the FCC TVQ database.

....but I find it requires a lot of poking around, inspect each application in the list, wait for the database search engine, etc.


I didn't get anywhere trying to use CDBS SEARCH PAGE, even after trying various search selections....


Maybe you have some database search tricks???


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think I know why Antennaweb has switched to such a pessimistic threshhold value. For SHVIA viewer eligibility to receive distant networks the fcc has established threshhold levels to use with Longley-Rice predictions that are about 20dB more pessimistic than the original levels used to estimate coverage contours. See this document for the new levels that were set to include fade margins:
> http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...7cfr73.683.pdf
> 
> More recently the fcc has added a clutter loss for the UHF band of about an additional 6dB depending on land use category, see here:
> http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineeri...0/fcc00185.doc
> 
> Put together this seems to create fairly pessimistic predictions. A quick check of these levels with the output from radiomobile for predictions to my house seemed about as pessimistic as antennaweb now is. This will be good news for those that want to receive distant networks from satellites because they can't get their local network OTA, but the predictions don't seem very relevant to those with good antenna installations. One reason the predictions may be so pessimistic is that although the fcc set the levels so the predictions had about the same number of overpredictions as underpredictions they ignored all sources of reception difficulties other than signal level like multipath or interfering channels when making the study.



The first reference (sec 73.683) lists the Grade A and Grade B contours for analog NTSC.

They are the same as have been used for many years (decades?) now.

Where's the 20 dB difference?

DTV Contours are 28 dBu (CH2-6), 36 dBu (CH7-13) and 41-20*log(615/Fc) dBu (CH14-69).

But you have to know that NTSC power is always measured with a peak reading meter, whereas DTV power is measured with an average reading meter.

That means that NTSC peak power must be 8+ dB higher than DTV average power to provide the same average receive signal.

DTV also requires a much lower SNR than NTSC.

The seemingly lower DTV Contour levels were postulated to provide the same number of households with "acceptable" performance as a Class B NTSC contour.

And in many tests people have found that DTV actually does provide equal or better reception under these constraints.


=======================================================

The second reference, while very valuable, isn't all that new, it's May 2000, which I cited above.


========================================================

The FCC uses the ILLR prediction program to prevent/minimize interference between stations when broadcasters submit an application.

For that reason, ILLR (and RADIO MOBILE) include a calculation of interference between co-channel stations.

But, quite frankly, the FCC doesn't really want to know how many viewers within the NTSC Grade B or DTV contours actually receive a reliable signal.

And oh by the way, they assume we all use moderate gain outdoor antennas 30 feet in the air.....


The FCC has NOT endorsed using the ILLR prediction program to determine whether you can theoretically receive on-air signals,

and if not, use those results to justify a Satellite waiver.


Hiring someone to make actual signal measurements has been endorsed,

give or take some lawyerly mumble jumble that I guess so far has succeeded

in putting Satellite waivers into a semi-permanent holding pattern.


----------



## amirm

Thanks for the comments on why antennaweb may be using pessimistic modeling. Even as an eletrical engineer with some RF experience, I am too lazy to try to dig into the reception modelling described here







.


So question. Has anyone tried the low-noise amps from Research Communications? I have gone to their web site but it is hard to figure out how to buy one of these. I have an email into them. When testing, I got a marginal signal on King-DT but not enough to get a lock on it. I am hoping that the 1.6db gain over the 7777 pre-amp may do it for me. What you all think? ANd doesn't anyone in US make a very low-noise amp so I don't have to import this darn thing?


Amir


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The first reference (sec 73.683) lists the Grade A and Grade B contours for analog NTSC.
> 
> They are the same as have been used for many years (decades?) now.
> 
> Where's the 20 dB difference?
> 
> DTV Contours are 28 dBu (CH2-6), 36 dBu (CH7-13) and 41-20*log(615/Fc) dBu (CH14-69).
> 
> But you have to know that NTSC power is always measured with a peak reading meter, whereas DTV power is measured with an average reading meter.
> 
> That means that NTSC peak power must be 8+ dB higher than DTV average power to provide the same average receive signal.
> 
> DTV also requires a much lower SNR than NTSC.
> 
> The seemingly lower DTV Contour levels were postulated to provide the same number of households with "acceptable" performance as a Class B NTSC contour.
> 
> And in many tests people have found that DTV actually does provide equal or better reception under these constraints.
> 
> ...
> 
> The FCC has NOT endorsed using the ILLR prediction program to determine whether you can theoretically receive on-air signals,
> 
> and if not, use those results to justify a Satellite waiver.
> 
> 
> Hiring someone to make actual signal measurements has been endorsed,
> 
> give or take some lawyerly mumble jumble that I guess so far has succeeded
> 
> in putting Satellite waivers into a semi-permanent holding pattern.



Well, it looks like an oops on my part for the signal strength numbers. I may have been confused when I read quickly because all around that table it is talking about ATSC. That rule also states the following:

" (d) For purposes of determining the

eligibility of individual households for

satellite retransmission of distant network

signals under the copyright law

provisions of 17 U.S.C. 119(d)(10)(A),

field strength shall be determined by

the Individual Location Longley-Rice

(ILLR) propagation prediction model.

Guidance for use of the ILLR model for

these purposes is provided in OET Bulletin

No. 72. This document is available

through the Internet on the FCC Home

Page at http://www.fcc.gov . "

Which does sound like the fcc endorses ILLR for determining distant network eligibility. I think I was confused by looking for the levels for the SHVIA eligibilty and those still seem to be based on Analog reception which is why when I looked up the levels I got the Analog numbers. I should have known it was referring to analog reception because I knew they were currently basing eligibility on NTSC not ATSC reception. My Bad. So, I guess the reason for the overly pessimistic antennaweb numbers remains a mystery.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Maybe you have some database search tricks???



Unfortunetly nothing too helpful that I've been able to find -- It certianly does take quite a bit of "nosing" around. I have found where your local stations are concerned, just being familiar with their current+past filings can save time later on. Otherwise , Sometimes, it can even be difficult to figure out with 100% certianity what operting permit(or Program Test Authority) the station is actually currently operating with.


I think Using the CDBS search page is especially "clumsy" for this application, although for other applications(such as looking for which stations filed First round conflict resolution forums) it can work quite well. But, Sometimes just figuring out which selections(including muliple ones) in CDBS searh page you have to make for the query to get the info you want in the drop down boxes is frustrating.


Over the past 4 years, I have been fairly regularly using "Search by radius" query function of TV query ( http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html ) for my location to the distance required(65km in my case) so all my locals stations pop up, while using the "detailed info+CDBS links) option and then checking the "application list" for new applications/info to look at which I'm interested in ... so, just being familiar with the past filings from the stations you are interested in saves time when looking at anything new ...


Also, certian things do stand out, which can speed things up a bit when you're trying to find what you are looking for ... For instance, A date of 6/23/05, and a status of either "approved" or disapproved" is currently indicated for the first round election form for every station I've seen. A file number designation with a "STA" in it is for a STA (unfortuently, as mentioned above they have not made any STA applications available). Also, the file number(in any case, for any application/filing submitted to FCC) itself will contain the date the filing was submitted to FCC. And of course, under "service", "DT" stands for applications related to the digital station, "DS" is STA DTV designation -- However(and this seems a bit odd) Although you will find all CP Apps, CP MOD apps, CP extension requests and "license to cover" apps, and DTV STA applications/extensions for DTV stations listed under either "DT" or "DS" for service ... Some other info pertaining to DTV stations, such as first round Elections are shown under "TV" service, which "normally" applies currently to the analog station ... go figure ..


------------------------------


By the way, predicted contour maps(for field strengths holl_ands mentioned above -- 41dbu for UHF, 36dbu for hi-VHF, 28dbu for lo-VHF) for DTV stations using FCC's contour methodology are also available via TV query+with use of the TV query and "Detailed info+CDBS links" option.


For instance, If I use TV query by callsign and choose detailed info+cdbs links option, I get these results for my query of "KFMB" :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state...&slon2=&size=9 


As you notice, first, a detailed section of info for their analog station on 8 shows up, followed by info on KFMB-DT's licensed facilities, and for some reason, a construction permit filed in 2000, and granted in 2001(if you look at the application list and match up the file numbers). So, since there is no new "license to cover" the CP at bottom of list, I must assume they are operting with the parameters shown for the info concerning their "licensed" facilities.


So, In the list of links right under the info on their antenna pattern/etc, at bottom line of links, it says : Area : Then a link that says "Service Contour Map(41dbu). Click on "service Contour Map(41)dbu, and you'll see a map of the area(I've included URL to this below), including the predicted 41dbu contour for KFMB-DT's currently licensed facilities :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DT492582.html 


Doesn't look like anyone but the fish will be impacted by their -13.7db null to the west


----------



## bobchase

The FCC has tightened up the DTV minimum field strength rules for city of license -


Channels 2 through 6 were 28 dBu now 35 dBu

Channels 7 through 13 were 36 dBu now 43 dBu

Channels 14 through 69 were 41 dBu now 48 dBu


The 7 dB change was to account for their overly optimistic tuner noise contribution and their abnormally high antenna gain, among other things. (This is assumed because they never gave reason for the change.)


This is for the city of licence only. The Grade A and Grade B contours do no have a corollary contour in DTV.


Just a clarification....


Bob Chase

KHWB-TV


----------



## Nitewatchman

Thanks Bob -- Here is also a link with the info you mentioned straight from the "rulebook"(this seems to be well updated), part 73.625 :

http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2005/73/625/ 


I also recall reading about that, I think in one of the more recent DTV transistion related R&O's, but can't recall which one ...


----------



## AntAltMike

I see that my stored link to bsexton.com is no longer operational. Has that site moved, or is it gone? The last time I visited it, they had only analog signal strength info available, but it was still useful to the extent that one might use analog Grade B levels to roughly predict the location of the cut-off perimeter of similarly situated, full powered DTV transmitters.


To the extent that the participants in this thread desire to actually discern whether the ambient signal levels where they are located can be developed to a level at which reliable viewing can be sustained, I consider all of this to be an exercise in futility.


We rely on the antenna manufacturers for antenna gain information, but they are in the business of selling antennas, and thus will present whatever info they have on gain in the manner that justifies publishing the biggest possible gain numbers.


Gain is expressed relative to dipole or isotropic radiator, but, as I understand it, that just gives a measure of "no-load voltage" measured at the terminals of the active element. But when we try to determine the sufficient power level needed to assure reliable operation of our tuners, the sufficiency values we are given are expressed in referenced decibel millivolts, which is not so much a measure of voltage as it is a measure of wattage actually delivered thought the connected, referenced load.


When you place a load across an antenna active element in an RF field, the voltage drops somewhat. It is my understanding that the maximum power transfer will occur when the load impedance matches the source impedance, so a 300 ohm dipole will develop its maximum power in dBmV or dBm when impressed upon a 300 ohm load, but I don't know if the calculations contained in this thread incorporate the voltage drop that occurs when the active element is loaded.


Even if they do, or even if there is an accepted value for the voltage drop that occurs when a 300 ohm dipole drives an optimal load (I'll guess 3dB, because half the voltage drop occurs across the load and the other half occurs across the source), the signal maximizers here often try to reduce the "balun loss" by using zero loss coax baluns, but such a balun may have the adverse consequence of reducing the efficiency of the reception loop, since a 75 ohm load will suck down the voltage level of a 300 ohm source more than a 300 ohm load will. With 60 cycle transformers, this effect is significant. Maybe at RF frequencies it is, for some reason, insignificant, but I don't know that to be the case. It may well be that the reduction measured in dBmV or dBm caused by the impedance mismatch of loading a 300 ohm dipole with a 75 ohm load is greater than the saving of that no-loss, tuned coax balun versus the much vilified, "ferrite" balun.


I also believe that the frequency response of tuners is likely to vary by several dB over the input spectrum range. I place no more stock in a manufacturer's claim that its tuners have noise figures of 9 or 10 dB (when they even bother to publish them) than I do in the published loss figures that Channel Master and Winegard give for their baluns, as anyone who has tested them knows that they vary by several dB over the broadcast spectrum.


I also am skeptical of one being able to rely on an S/N ratio to be able to reliably predict uninterrupted decoding. Any analysis of S/N ratios that suggests that 15.9dB is the threshold level that will get us the performance reliabilty we desire is really making assumptions regarding the nature of the variation in noise as it occurs in nature. Sure, we can degrade a signal with our flat, white noise generator until it fails to be decoded, and we might establish, from that, a consistent S/N minimum value that can withstand the effect of flat white noise degradation, but real noise occurs in bursts that have multiple dimensions of frequency, amplitude and duration, and it is the unique collective effect of each noise invasion that determines whether the frame being processed is corrupted beyond repair.


FWIW, someone once posted in these forums that the critical data within the 8VSB signal has been arranged such that it would tend to be relatively immune to the degrading effects of the co-channel analog picture carrier at +1.25Mz, and in fact, he said that the 8VSB signal can supposedly withstand an NTSC peak that is within 2dB of the RMS value of the 8VBS plateau. Maybe someone here with more time on his hands than I have could experiment with that and gradually increase the value of his own, modulator-generated NTSC co-channel to see how robust the 8VSB is when subjected to that kind of interference which does occur naturally, but which is not best analyzed by just measuring the 6Mz bandwidth RMS value of the NTSC signal.


Nitewatchman has mentioned that he has experienced disruptions on channel 10 from lightning strikes, and another forum member from Northampton, Massachusetts reported similar lightning disruptions on channel 11. It could be that lightning noise is the achilles heel for VHF highband, just as some kind of terrestrial impulse noise seems to wreak havoc on VHF lowband channels 2 and 3. Or it could be that our sample of two unhappy campers is statistically insignificant.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the comments on why antennaweb may be using pessimistic modeling. Even as an eletrical engineer with some RF experience, I am too lazy to try to dig into the reception modelling described here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> So question. Has anyone tried the low-noise amps from Research Communications? I have gone to their web site but it is hard to figure out how to buy one of these. I have an email into them. When testing, I got a marginal signal on King-DT but not enough to get a lock on it. I am hoping that the 1.6db gain over the 7777 pre-amp may do it for me. What you all think? ANd doesn't anyone in US make a very low-noise amp so I don't have to import this darn thing?
> 
> 
> Amir



Of course I have had to edit my post because my guess about antennaweb was wrong. In the HD hardware forum ctdish has posted that he will be trying out a low noise amp soon. His antenna array is on a tower so it may take him awhile to try it. The posts below about pre-amps not meeting noise specs makes me suspicious of manufacturer's specs. I have seen some posts in the Hartford thread about people who bought the research communications pre-amp not getting better results so they wanted to sell the amp. I would think a more effective way to get more signal is to move the antenna. If it isn't blocked by anything close that would probably mean going higher.


----------



## deconvolver

My TV has a read-out of the AGC value for a channel. I am thinking that if I tune to an empty channel I might be able to use this to compare pre-amps. Since the pre-amp gain would also affect the AGC value I need a relative measure of pre-amp noise. With satellite dishes you can measure the noise increase between pointing the dish at the empty sky and the sun to get a figure of merit for the antenna plus pre-amp. I wonder if a similar method might work with a good antenna. Normally a TV antenna's temperature is set by the ground temperature (I think) but what if you pointed it straight up and measured an empty channel's signal level and then pointed it straight down and repeated the measurement? I would think that if a pre-amp had a very low noise factor like 0.5 then you should see a bigger difference. Of course this would require an antenna with a good front to worst-case rear spec and a truly empty channel to work. Or is there some reason the antenna temperature wouldn't tend to track the sky vs sun or ground temperature like it does with a satellite dish?


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks Bob -- Here is also a link with the info you mentioned straight from the "rulebook"(this seems to be well updated), part 73.625 :
> 
> http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2005/73/625/
> 
> 
> I also recall reading about that, I think in one of the more recent DTV transistion related R&O's, but can't recall which one ...



This rule does indicate that the height above average terrain is used to compute the service area contours doesn't it? I have always thought that that is how the coverage maps from the TV query site are generated. If true then of course they are not very useful as compared to the ILLR model for predicting reception for a given location. I wonder then if those field levels have any applicability to ILLR? I guess a good technique for an individual to determine the required field strength with ILLR is to use holl_and's spreadsheet with the details for their installation.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I see that my stored link to bsexton.com is no longer operational. Has that site moved, or is it gone?



What you are talking about from the old bsexton URL was available via a "free coverage maps" link from this site for a time, but I believe it is now gone "completely" :

http://www.ardman.net/ 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Nitewatchman has mentioned that he has experienced lightning disruptions on channel 10 from lightning strikes, ..... Or it could be that our sample of two unhappy campers is statistically insignificant.



It's insignificant in my case. I am certianly not"uphappy camper" becuase of TWO dropouts due to TWO VERY NEARBY(to the receive antenna) lightning strikes Over FOUR YEARS of viewing this station.


It's statistically insignificant even concerning my DTV reception over the past four years during thunderstorms occuring at MY location, and if my reception was the only "sample" available ...


To further clarify .... I have viewed the local VHF DT station on 10 through numerous storms(or storms in the signal path) and it wasn't a problem, at all.


Now, also, when I said very nearby lightning strikes, I mean I could hear the sound of the air being disturbed at the exact moment of the strike, and the flash was VERY bright(inside a room with blinds and shades that let in very little light with my eyes focued on the TV which is nowhere near any windows) ..... and I have no doubt I would have seen quite a bit of "static" IF I had been watching a UHF analog station at the time ....


Add in the other FOUR reception dropouts(to the DT on 10, and a DT on 24 NONE on my other 12 local DTS) I've seen due to "extreme" co-channel interference during abnormal signal propagation OVER 4 YEARS TIME, adding up to a total of about 6~8 seconds of "disrupted viewing" on 14 local DTV stations(I was OTA only viewer until adding E* service a year ago, so this wasn't just a few hours of watching local DTV stations a week), and I am certinaly in NO shape or form a "unhappy camper" when it comes to DTV ....


Update:


That being said, we have had a number of posters on our local thread which have seemingly ran into difficulties with reception of this station not only involving lightning, but man-made impulse noise and other RFI which we tend to think of being much more of a problem on Lo-VHF. I say seemingly, however as it is often difficult to detirmine with any sort of certianity via posts on this forum what "difficulties" are causing reception problems in any specific case.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> To the extent that the participants in this thread desire to actually discern whether the ambient signal levels where they are located can be developed to a level at which reliable viewing can be sustained, I consider all of this to be an exercise in futility.



While I tend to agree somewhat with this assesment in a general way : Nevertheless I think some of the details which have been provided here can be useful to some for various reasons. Also, certianly a Longely-rice study even without "extra precise information" on such factors as receive antenna gain can be beneifical for those in terrain obstructed receiving locations who want to get at least a bit of an idea of whether or not they may have a chance at reception of a given station.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> To the extent that the participants in this thread desire to actually discern whether the ambient signal levels where they are located can be developed to a level at which reliable viewing can be sustained, I consider all of this to be an exercise in futility.
> 
> 
> ...



I think you are being overly pessimistic. Programs like radiomobile are readily available on the web to predict the transmission loss of radio waves between the transmit and receive antennas and statistical modelling of various disruptions has always been a part of reception studies like were done in creating Longley-Rice. You can also download free or cheap antenna modelling software like 4nec2 or eznec or multinec plus antenna models from the hdtvprimer web site to get good estimates of real antenna power gains. Or, just look at the plots at hdtvprimer. There are also balun loss and pre-amp noise measurements available. So if you are using a balun and pre-amp with independently measured performance then predictions should be possible. The final piece to the puzzle of the needed fade margin for a reasonable time reliability can be determined by comparing prediction results to experience the way holl_ands appears to be doing.


----------



## AntAltMike

But the relatively new mission is, we are now trying to estimate the performance margin necessary to assure glitch-free decoding of digital images that persist for as long as one second at a time and intervals of audio disruption that may endure for even longer, rather than to minimize the slight visible degradation of analog pictures that persist for only 1/30th of a second.


We can calculate what it takes to develop a TASO Grade 1 analog picture, and, in most situations, our input data are accurate within a few dB, and even if it isn't, most of us can't discern the difference between a picture with, say, a 43dB S/N ratio rather than a 46dB ratio. If a plane files overhead and causes a reflection that lasts one frame on an analog picture, we probably won't notice it, any more than people noticed the "subliminal" advertising that may or may not have been shown in movie theaters (and in a great Colombo episode) back in the 1970s, and we may or may not even notice one frame of impulse noise speckles on an analog program if the background was solid and still versus complex and moving.


While we engineered performance margins that gave us Grade 1 or 2 analog pictures, when those systems failed to meet that margin we usually didn't notice, and when we did notice, we usually didn't care, and so we really have no idea how often those reception links failed to attain our calculated threshold signal quality levels, but when the reception link fails to develop sufficient signal quality for a minuscule but critiical interval in the reception of the data stream, we notice.


I will not, under any circumstance, install a residential off-air reception antenna as a subcontractor because, if the customer ever has a one second freeze-up on his $6,000 plasma display which is part of his $20,000 home theater, he will be strongly inclined to call his contractor to complain, who, in turn, would be inclined to call me to make sure that I didn't do something wrong. I can take on that kind of responsibility from my own customers because most of them are commercial, and as far as the few residential installations I did are concerned, I made them acknowledge that I had told them that every once in a while a glitch could occur and that it didn't mean that their system needed on-site service, in-warranty or otherwise, but because I couldn't similarly browbeat them as a subcontractor, I simply decided not to take them on as customers.



I've installed master antenna systems with multiple antenna arrays in about a dozen high-rise buildings and I wish I could say that I am certain that my installations have been glitch free, but the fact it, I so thoroughly conditioned the customer, meaning the management, to screen out complaints that I really can't say for sure that all of my systems have been as reliable as they appear to be. I think they have been, because I have a lot of S/N margin to work with in my market, but I understand that by having effectively preempted potential complaints, I just might have buried a few of them.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland

*This post addresses several areas of HDTV reception: Finding True North, ATSC Reception Test Equipment, Satellite Dish Aiming, Paint, Washers and Antenna Pictures. See attached PDF files.*

*Finding True North*

The simple way is to use a good magnetic compass. A suitable compass can be found at your local Wal*Mart in the Sporting Goods section. You will need to account for your Magnetic Declination and that can be computed by NOAA Magnetic Declination site.


The sun can be used to find true north, go to NOAA Weather site, enter your nearest city & state, then select Local Climatology, then select the nearest location to you under the Daily Climate Reports. There should be a section that will list the Sun Rise and Sun Set times. Format three cells in Quattro (or Excel) in 24 hour time mode. Enter Sun Rise as XX:XX:XX and Sun Set as YY:YY:YY. In the third cell enter this equation: (((Sun Set-Sun Rise)/2)+Sun Rise) This will calculate your local High Noon. At this time a vertical (plumb) pole or object will cast a shadow on a level surface (tangent) that points due North. Note: when the sun is close to The Tropic of Cancer the shadows will be short in the USA.


The North Star will also get you close. At night, position yourself so your antenna mast is inline between you and the North Star, now mark a spot at your feet. During daylight you can point your antenna boom to the spot previously marked as your starting reference.
*

Problematic DTV reception:*

There will be situations were receiving DTV stations will be difficult. Without proper test equipment the most one can do is place and aim their antenna by trial & error. In most cases analysis with instruments should show if reception at a particular location will be feasible. At minium, the test unit has to have a spectrum analyzer with sufficient resolution and display to show echo nulls, desired channel flatness and other signal degradation. Unfortunately these instruments are fairly expensive and beyond the reach of many (most) serious hobbyists. Listed below are several devices that are designed to analyze DTV signals. A general purpose Tenma Spectrum Analyzer is included because it is relatively inexpensive for this class of equipment. Please note this unit does not cover all the L-Band frequencies and may not be suitable for common satellite use. The Sencore AT1506 seems to be the most advanced DTV analyzer, but I think it is being phased out of their product line.


DISCLAIMER: I have no experience or affiliation with any of the devices listed below except as noted.


At work we had a Tektronix RFM151 that I used for DTV signal evaluation. It appears to be available from Tempo as the Signal Scout RFM151. This was a fine unit but the operation was not very intuitive.

Tempo Signal Scout RFM151 , Sencore AT1506 , Sencore SA 1454 , Sencore SLM 1456 , Leader LF 983 (Has been discontinued??) Tenma 72-6696 1GHz Spectrum Analyzer. Added: BK Precision Model 2630 Spectrum Analyzer and Sencore DTU-234 RF Probe with optional software.


Peter Putmans comments on DTV reception, spectrum analyzers, and some antenna test. HEAVY METAL, PART I , Spectrum Analyzers . More Antenna Test by Bob Chase using a spectrum analyzer.


The file Coaxial Balun-0001.PDF contains a drawing of resistive pads to convert the 50Ω input and tracking generator output of a spectrum analyzer to 75Ω in and out. A Tapered T Attenuator and a 75Ω, 43dB Symmetrical T Attenuator convert the output of a 0 dBm, 50Ω tracking generator to 0 dBmV, 75Ω. The attenuation of the Tapered T Attenuator was chosen so the value of R2 was 0Ω and therefore eliminated. Most outs will be adjustable in 10 dB steps so you could make the Symmetrical T Pad 13 dB and set the generator to -30 dBm. The resistors should be Dale/Vishay RN60 series or better, the 1Ω could be hard to find and one may have to use a thick film resistor. The input to the analyzer has a single 25Ω resistor added in series with the input. Just add 50.5 dB to the analyzers reading to convert to dBmV, i.e., -63.7 + 50.5 = -13.2 dBmV. The operation of a 1/2λ coaxial and a ferrite transformer balun (set to ideal) is included. The 1/2λ coaxial balun is in purple and the ferrite transformer balun is in green.

*Satellite Dish Aiming*

Tic Mark Spacing-0001.PDF has degree markers for three common use pipe sizes. When printing this sheet make sure the Shrink to Fit option is not checked. A line that is 6 inches in length is at the top and is your reference, measure to make sure that it is the correct length. I print these on 24lb. paper, cutout the desired marker and attach to my dish pole. I cover them with clear weather proof tape (Frost King), see Antenna-0001.PDF for pictures.


Aim your LNB boom arm due South (those dishes with skew should be set to none or neutral skew), take a common paper clip and straighten one leg and temporally tape it to your dish incline bracket so that it is inline with a tic mark. Make a mark where the dish should be rotated to and rotate the dish so the pointer (paper clip) is at the reference mark you made (i.e., your location requires 213° W, 213-180 = 33° West rotation from due South [clockwise, looking down on the dish]). Set the elevation (and skew if multi satellite dish). If done correctly you should have a signal from the desired satellite(s). Tweak the azimuth and elevation for best signal, the skew should not be changed. For folks with small aperture dishes and using linear LNBs, set the skew of your LNB that corresponds to your location and desired satellite. Folks using an H-H motor mount should have their LNB skew set to 0°.

*Satellite Dish Paint and Washers*

Rust-Oleum Smoke Gray 7786 [20066 77868] paint is a very close color match to the Winegard and KTI satellite dishes that I have. This paint is very slow drying. To touch-up minor scratches I tighten the cotton of a cotton swab, spray the swab and apply.


To minimized scratching the elevation marking on my satellite dish incline brackets used to adjust the dish elevation I procured 1/4 (≤ 76CM dish) and 5/16 (≥ 1M dish) inch nylon washers and placed between the bracket and flat washers.

*Pictures*

Antenna-0001.PDF contains four pictures of my satellite dishes and antennas. I live in a condo and have very limited use of space. Upper Left: Winegard DS-3100 for Ku satellite (AMC-3 for PBS HD). KTI for Dish Network at 110° and 119°. Upper Right: Rear view of Winegard DS-3100. All the mounting items were fabricated by me from items available at the local building supply and online. 2-3/8, 16ga. fence post, 1-5/8 (actually 1.66") 17ga. fence post, 3/4 EMT, and treated lumber. The hardware items are: stainless steel, galvanized or Grade 8. Lower Left: Winegard PR-9032 UHF antenna, RCA dish for Dish Network at 61.5°. Lower Right: Closeup of the PR-9032.


09-19-05 Added to analyzer list

10-04-05 Added link to Bob Chase antenna test

 

Coaxial Balun-0001.pdf 21.3515625k . file

 

Tic Mark Spacing-0001.pdf 13.1396484375k . file

 

Antenna-0001.pdf 364.7939453125k . file


----------



## chwilson0607

I am relatively new to HDTV programming through my satellite service. However I think I am just about ready to roll. My question is on getting broadcast HD channels. I have been hearing I need to set up an antenna and connect it to the HD receiver. As a test, I tried hooking an indoor antenna to the HDTV itself located in my basement however it was quite fuzzy.


In the stores, I see large antennas for mounting on the roof or on the side of the house and I also see smaller ones for indoors. What is the recommendation for receiving HD broadcast channels? According to the first post I saw, bigger antenna, higher up (roof mount). Any thoughts? Thanks.



Carl


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My TV has a read-out of the AGC value for a channel. I am thinking that if I tune to an empty channel I might be able to use this to compare pre-amps. Since the pre-amp gain would also affect the AGC value I need a relative measure of pre-amp noise. With satellite dishes you can measure the noise increase between pointing the dish at the empty sky and the sun to get a figure of merit for the antenna plus pre-amp. I wonder if a similar method might work with a good antenna. Normally a TV antenna's temperature is set by the ground temperature (I think) but what if you pointed it straight up and measured an empty channel's signal level and then pointed it straight down and repeated the measurement? I would think that if a pre-amp had a very low noise factor like 0.5 then you should see a bigger difference. Of course this would require an antenna with a good front to worst-case rear spec and a truly empty channel to work. Or is there some reason the antenna temperature wouldn't tend to track the sky vs sun or ground temperature like it does with a satellite dish?



I would be careful about making any conclusions based on the AGC value in your TV Tuner.


I would hope that most modern designs apply AGC to the RF front end, but some may not.

The best RF AGC would be developed based on signal overload within the RF bandwidth,

which would include strong RF signals several channels away, rather than the heavily filtered

IF bandwidth that may only include adjacent channel signal levels.

But most modern designs develop AGC in the IF bandwidth and then apply that same signal to both RF and IF.


Several of the few detailed designs that I've seen disclosed employ either "stepped" AGC schemes

that apply 10, 20, 30 or 40 dB attenuation or employ linear AGC control range up to about 40 or 50 dB.

Below a (sometimes variable) signal threshhold, the AGC attenuation is set for minimum,

depending on the dynamic range of the RF amplifier for the first several decades of signal strength.

Above the maximum attenuation setting, the amplifier responds to increasing signal levels with more intermods.


This latter effect will mean that the displayed AGC value will be at minimum attenuation

for a fairly wide range of low level input signals.


======================================================

Radio Telescope systems regularly check to make sure that the sky noise temperature is close

to their specified minimum and then can scan around to find the direction of unwanted interference.


So can you do the same with a Preamped TV antenna? Probably not.

A TV antenna has a fairly wide beamwidth and significant sidelobes that let in multipath reflections

from all sorts of unexpected directions.

Unless you are in the Australian Outback, the Preamp will almost always be presented

with moderate to strong signals that will generate intermod products that are above the noise floor.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chwilson0607* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am relatively new to HDTV programming through my satellite service. However I think I am just about ready to roll. My question is on getting broadcast HD channels. I have been hearing I need to set up an antenna and connect it to the HD receiver. As a test, I tried hooking an indoor antenna to the HDTV itself located in my basement however it was quite fuzzy.
> 
> 
> In the stores, I see large antennas for mounting on the roof or on the side of the house and I also see smaller ones for indoors. What is the recommendation for receiving HD broadcast channels? According to the first post I saw, bigger antenna, higher up (roof mount). Any thoughts? Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Carl



FUZZY??? You must have been watching an old analog TV station.


DTV signals display in either decimal (e.g. 5.1) or dashed (e.g. 5-1) format.

They are either extremely sharp or they suffer from blocks of pixels being scrambled

or when it's really bad, signal dropouts that can last for seconds to minutes at a time.


You need to get the antenna out of the basement and as high as possible.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chwilson0607* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am relatively new to HDTV programming through my satellite service. However I think I am just about ready to roll. My question is on getting broadcast HD channels. I have been hearing I need to set up an antenna and connect it to the HD receiver. As a test, I tried hooking an indoor antenna to the HDTV itself located in my basement however it was quite fuzzy.
> 
> 
> In the stores, I see large antennas for mounting on the roof or on the side of the house and I also see smaller ones for indoors. What is the recommendation for receiving HD broadcast channels? According to the first post I saw, bigger antenna, higher up (roof mount). Any thoughts? Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Carl



You can go to antennaweb.com and type in your address to get an idea of the digital channels that should be fairly easy to receive. The antennaweb prediction is pessimistic though so with a good antenna system (and antenna pre-amp for rural locations) you may be able to get more stations than antennaweb says. Some receivers can get both the old-fashioned fuzzy analog stations and the new digital ones, it is the digital ones that will be clear (and sharp when they broadcast HD like most major network affiliates mostly do during prime time).


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would be careful about making any conclusions based on the AGC value in your TV Tuner.
> 
> ...
> 
> ======================================================
> 
> Radio Telescope systems regularly check to make sure that the sky noise temperature is close
> 
> to their specified minimum and then can scan around to find the direction of unwanted interference.
> 
> 
> So can you do the same with a Preamped TV antenna? Probably not.
> 
> A TV antenna has a fairly wide beamwidth and significant sidelobes that let in multipath reflections
> 
> from all sorts of unexpected directions.
> 
> Unless you are in the Australian Outback, the Preamp will almost always be presented
> 
> with moderate to strong signals that will generate intermod products that are above the noise floor.



Thanks for the info holl_ands. The AGC value seems different for each channel and is much higher for empty/very weak channels. Given how you say most AGC's work I suspect that my TV's AGC readout would not work well enough as a signal level meter. My house is in a bit of a hole so I don't have a direct path to any station. For instance the radiomobile prediction for my strongest digital UHF station is +23 dB above a threshhold of 39 microvolts/meter. I had hoped that intermod products would be negligible so the noise floor for some weak stations would be the antenna thermal noise+cascaded noise factor. This might be true for a few select regions of the UHF band which seem to be very empty for my location. I still expect that you are right that since I don't have an under-illuminated dish for an antenna I will see lots of noise level variation depending on leakage of energy through minor lobes and wouldn't be able to sort out when the noise level is mostly determined by pre-amp noise even with a good signal level meter.


----------



## bmcent1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> FUZZY??? You must have been watching an old analog TV station.
> 
> 
> DTV signals display in either decimal (e.g. 5.1) or dashed (e.g. 5-1) format.
> 
> They are either extremely sharp or they suffer from blocks of pixels being scrambled
> 
> or when it's really bad, signal dropouts that can last for seconds to minutes at a time.



Second that! Over this long weekend, I built a VERY makeshift dipole and hooked it up to my new ATSC PC tuner card. The antenna is U-G-L-Y, masking taped to a wall, aligator clips connecting it to the inner wire on a run of coax strewn across the floor to plug into the card...


I checked a few UHF NTSC channels first on a regular TV, to see if my antenna worked at all, it did, but the picture was less than perfect. Good, antenna works. Now connected the antenna to the ATSC tuner card... WOW!! Crystal clear SDTV on 62.1 and when I tuned to 62.2, an HD channel, even clearer HDTV. My wife thought I was a little crazy the way the "lab" looks right now, but even she was quite excited about the picture quality and couldn't believe it was coming in over that little makeshift antenna.


On a side note, I have really enjoyed all the conversation about the SNR equations. Some of it even made sense







... I will definately factor in the antenna pattern. Luckily, many transmitters in my area are non-directional. Holl_ands and Nitewatchman in particular, thank you! I'm not going into this expecting absolutely correct results, but it will be nice if I can get somewhat more accurate results from modeling than what antenna web provides. And if both my modeling and antenna web say my location is a no-go, then I know not to bother buying an antenna at all. My personal feeling on drop-outs is that a tiny drop out here or there will be okay by me, much better than watching BLURRY analog NTSC ALL THE TIME on a 42" plasma. Just sayin' ;-)


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bmcent1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> but even she was quite excited about the picture quality and couldn't believe it was coming in over that little makeshift antenna.



That's the kind of stuff I like to hear about !










-------------------------------------------


I was thinking how much easier this might be for many folks if stations would post predicted coverage map on their website of their service area based on Longely-rice studies, perhaps with simply labled shaded areas such as "fringe signal area", "strong signal area", "big honkin' single channel antenna array area"(or "good luck" area)/ etc .....


----------



## RayL Jr.

Excellent post Wendell. The North star Polaris is @ Right Ascension 02 : 31 : 50.5 (h:m:s), & Declination +89 : 15 : 51 (deg:m:s) - pretty close.


Those spectrum analyzers seem to be $2100-3000 new, looks like there are deals on used & refurbs. Also the Tektronix RFM151 Signal Scout Cable VRF Analyzer, I guess both brands now owned by Textron.


Oil based enamels for metal are ideal for outdoor durability like the Rust-Oleum. I use same paint, also different colors & spray can:


Rust-Oleum Clean Metal Primer 12 oz spray #7780-830 white, clean metal

Rust-Oleum Clean Metal Primer rust inhibitor 1 quart #7780-504 white, clean metal

Rust-Oleum Rusty Metal Primer rust inhibitor 1 quart #7769-504 white, clean metal

Rust-Oleum Protective Enamel oil-based enamel 1 quart #7779 many colors

Rust-Oleum Professional Enamel oil-based enamel 1 gallon #7779 many colors

Rust-Oleum Gloss Protective Enamel 12 oz spray #7770-830 many colors

Rust-Oleum Gloss Hammered Metal Finish enamel 12 oz spray #7210-830 black, gold, green


----------



## rogo

Hey, guys, I bought a CM4228 and get signal strength mostly in the 70s (some 80s) per the HD Tivo. But I'm still concerned about dropouts. We saw one yesterday (could be a transmission glitch, duno). I have to go topside to remove an old antenna anyway, so I'm wondering a preamp might not help me.


I'm about 25 miles from the main tower and 20 from the secondary tower which is on a similar line. There is one VHF station on the secondary tower (soon) and the rest are UHF.


Would a 7777 help? Is a 7778 the better choice as lower gain seems all that might be needed? Is either overkill? Pleas help!


----------



## vreath

Does a person need an HD antenna to HD quality reception? Or does a strong UHF and/or VHF antenna accomplish the same result?


----------



## ctdish

Their is nothing special about any antenna labled HD. Since the HD channels are in the same bands as the analog channels any good antenna will do. Generally a large antenna will be better than a small one for a given band. If your analog chanels look good especially UHF, you are probably good to go. John


----------



## greywolf

It sounds like you're doing fine already. With those numbers, occasional glitches are not a strength problem. You're just about at the inside limit for a preamp and the HR10-250 is an easy receiver to overload. If you want to try something, a 15 db preamp rather than a mid 20s might be okay. If I were you, I'd leave well enough alone. I'm 11mi away with 90-94 for numbers and I get more glitches than you do.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> We rely on the antenna manufacturers for antenna gain information, but they are in the business of selling antennas, and thus will present whatever info they have on gain in the manner that justifies publishing the biggest possible gain numbers.
> 
> 
> Gain is expressed relative to dipole or isotropic radiator, but, as I understand it, that just gives a measure of "no-load voltage" measured at the terminals of the active element.
> 
> 
> When you place a load across an antenna active element in an RF field, the voltage drops somewhat. It is my understanding that the maximum power transfer will occur when the load impedance matches the source impedance, so a 300 ohm dipole will develop its maximum power in dBmV or dBm when impressed upon a 300 ohm load, but I don't know if the calculations contained in this thread incorporate the voltage drop that occurs when the active element is loaded.



The biggest problem is that most manufacturers don't publish gain vs freq.

And then there is the trick of citing the maximum (vice average) gain value.

And/or using dBi rather than the usual dBd number for another 2.15 dB inflation.

I usually assume they've done both (like DAT-75) if they don't specify otherwise.


I've posted a comparison chart between actual measured antenna gain

vs manufacturer spec sheet data vs NEC Simulation results for both the

Channel Master CM4228 and the Winegard PR8800 8-Bay Antennas in

the fol. thread:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1126050076 

The spread sheet summarizes spec sheet info for many different, mostly UHF, antennas.


Unfortunately, these are only two antennas tested by Kerry Cozad that also

have detailed frequency response specs released by the manufacturers.

Hopefully you will note that for both antennas, the actual measurements

were about 2 dB HIGHER than the spec sheet claims.


Also note for several antennas, the NEC Simulations underestimated gain below CH30.


Dielectric recently posted a white paper to accompany the vu-graph presentation:
http://www.dielectric.com/broadcast/...ntennas%20.pdf 

Note measurements were conducted per IEEE-STD 149-1979 cited below.


===================================================

Antennas are measured with either a 75-ohm or 300-ohm resistive load.

Of course real Preamps and TV Tuners will exhibit a VSWR of their own,

but the antenna manufactures have no control over that aspect.


The applicable spec is ANSI/IEEE-STD 149-1979, "Standard Procedures for Antennas"

which you can buy on-line for not quite a "C" note or find a well equipped library.


Since that is usually not very convenient, here are some alternative links:

How to measure 50-ohm base station antennas, based on IEEE-STD 149-1979:
http://www.guerrilla.net/reference/a...-sept-1999.pdf 

The Mexican government's adaptation of IEEE STD 149-1979:
http://www.justnet.org/pdffiles/N20402.pdf 


Exercise for the (Norwegian) Student:
http://www.tele.ntnu.no/radio/***/TT...atternMeas.pdf 

using HP-9720C Vector Network Analyzer:
ftp://ftp.testequity.com/pdf/8719-22c.pdf 

which has a VARIABLE input impedance from 0.001 to 1000 ohms, so there

is no need to use a balun or 75/50-ohm minimum loss pads.


----------



## theroys88

hey guys,

Hope you guys can give me some advice. Live in Richmond and have two antennas. One toward the Richmond stations and one towards Norfolk. My son loves the WB and they are on channel 33. The antenna I have toward Norfolk is a antennacraft d9000 with 92 elements. It is manufactured by the same folks that make the radio shack antennas. I do know that it has a adverage gain of 9db but not what each channel gain is. I am able to pick up 33 fairly well at night and early morning but it gets unwatchable during the day with no audio. Norfolk is around 70 miles from my location. My question is that the antennasdirect xg91 gain on channel 33 is 15.7 and the 4228 is around 11. I am leaning toward the XG91 but may try both out and see which one does best with a uhf preamp. With these antennas and the higher gain do you guys think that I could get a watchable picture during the day? I figure having twice the elements for uhf and so much more gain that I should get a decent picture. Also I am confused. Antennaweb told me that the Norfolk stations are 136 and 137 degrees from my location but when I pointed my antenna to that degree mark I couldn't get a picture but when I pointed to 180-190 degrees I got the best picture. Also why does the picture detiorate during the day. All the literature I have read states it shouldn't. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks Joseph


----------



## colofan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I doubt that a different antenna in the same place will make a huge improvement over a CM4228. Assuming you already have a good non-overloaded pre-amp like a CM 7777 and interfering channels are not the issue then unless you can re-locate the antenna to a better (higher) place it will be difficult to go from an unusable to a good signal. How close to watchable is the station now? If it is not almost fine with a few too many dropouts then don't expect miracles.



Well I have a 7775 since all I am trying to receive is UHF. I was wondering the reading I have seen mentioned local hot spots as well as dips in signal. How far apart is channel 35? I believe it is around 500 Mhz so is this a single wavelength distance or what?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *theroys88* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My question is that the antennasdirect xg91 gain on channel 33 is 15.7 and the 4228 is around 11. I am leaning toward the XG91 but may try both out and see which one does best with a uhf preamp.



Kerry Cozad's *actual measurement for CM4228 on CH32 was 14.7 dBd,*

which is about 3 dB higher than the spec sheet info.


I don't know where you found the 15.7 dB from, but I suspect that it may be dBi (relative to isotropic)

rather than dBd (relative to dipole gain), such as is used by Channel Master and Winegard.

To obtain dbd from dBi, subtract 2.15 dB.


None of the XG91 websites cited in Nitewatchman's post #2599 on 8/31/05 indicated whether their antenna gain numbers were in dBi or dBd.

By looking at other simple antennas on the Funke website, such as the FM 2-element Yagi and VHF 4-element Yagi, it is clear that Funke uses dBd.


Their gain plot shows a gain of about *14 dBd on CH33 for the XG91* type antenna.


So they are within about a dB of each other on that channel and both have about the same shape to the curve and hence appear to be fairly close across the UHF band.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So they are within about a dB of each other on that channel and both have about the same shape to the curve and hence appear to be fairly close across the UHF band.



I've been told by those with the expertise to know that the 91XG is a fraction better than the other common antennas (including the 4228.) I do know that for those with a rotor, there really is no reason to chance the 4228's sail-potential.


----------



## PExeter

Please help me, Im so lost!! Ok, i've never had experience with OTA programming or any antennas for that matter. I took the forums advice and today UPS brought me a CM 4228 8-Bay Bowtie UHF Antenna and a CM 7777 Amp. I am trying to receive channels that are all 33 miles away at 360 degrees. Thats not the problem, as soon as I dumped out the box, I felt LOST. I can use anything as a mast? I figured it might come with one...dont ask why please. I was figuring on just strapping that sucker on to the roof and run a cable to my HR10-250 direct tv tivo and that was it. But now its looking pretty diffucult and a task I might not be able to handle. Im sure I have the correct diameter pipe lying around to mount this to, but according to the directions everything else looks complicated, they are very vauge. Can anyone point me in the right direction? A step by step website? Personal experience with the same antenna? You coming over to my house and installing it for me? Im only going to be able to get NBC and FOX and im starting to think its not worth it. Please help [email protected]!


----------



## amirm

Sorry, but are you talking about mechanical part of this or electrical? If it is mechanical, you need to have a mast attached to your house somehow. Then the antenna just clips onto it with the U-bolts.


Once you have it mounted, the rest is really trivial. There is a "balun" that you need to connect. This is a black cylinder that on one side has two wires, on the other, a single "coax" connector. The two wires go on the antenna posts in the center and lock up using two wing nuts. The other side should just be connected to an RG-6 coax wire. One side of the coax hooks up to the balun, the other to the "combo VHF+UHF" input of the 7777. Don't use the connector next to it for now. Now, run a wire from the connector on the other side of the box far away from these two (sorry, don't remember th label) and hook this up to the power supply box. This box has two coax connections: one that feed power to the remote amplifier, and at the same time recieves the signal from it to amply. The other connector is what you hook up to your TV.


So the signal stream is from the center post of the antenna, through the balun (to convert it from 300 ohm parallel wires to 75 ohm round coax wire), to the pre-amp, then power supply and then your TV. It is really simple.


Once you have all of that, then you need to align the antenna. 360 means that the elements need to point north and the screen behind it. Also note that at 33 miles, you may not even need the amp. So just hook up the antenna first directly with the balun and see if that works. If it doesn't, then insert the amp per above.


And yes, I just did all of this and while I am an electrical engineer, all of it was really trivial.


Good luck and ask again if you have any questions.


Amir


----------



## PExeter

Thank you very much. I didnt realize the place where I picked up my antenna sells all the mounting equipment I would need. Thanks again, that really helped me out.


----------



## greywolf

Important reading for DIY installers may be found at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html 


Pay special attention to grounding procedures.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PExeter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Please help me, Im so lost!! Ok, i've never had experience with OTA programming or any antennas for that matter. As soon as I dumped out the box, I felt LOST. Can anyone point me in the right direction? A step by step website?



Suggest you start by reading Channel Masters Antenna Installation Guidebook:
http://www.channelmaster.com/pdf/AntInstallGuide.pdf


----------



## Statix

This thread has some of the most experienced in the antenna and cable world

and that is why I am posting my question here:


I am looking for a solution to eliminate what I believe is current coming in over

the CATV ground. There is a hum coming from the subwoofer and it disappears

when the CATV connection is removed.


I have tried a ground loop isolator, which did not work.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=180-075 


Any help would be highly appreciated.


----------



## greywolf

First check to see if the CATV line into the house is grounded. There should be a grounding block or grounded splitter near where the coax enters the building. That device should have a ground wire attached which is connected to the main building ground at the other end. It should not have its own grounding rod unless that rod is bonded to the main building ground with 6ga or heavier copper wire.


The ground loop isolator most often recommended here is made by Jensen. I don't have personal experience with them.


----------



## chinatti

I just received a CM4228 antenna that I ordered from an online vendor. A couple of the edges were slightly bent (looks like typical UPS shipping "white glove" treatment - the box edges were crushed a little. Also, the screen isn't sitting completely flush. Is this something I should be worried about? How critical is the alignment of the various parts of the antenna? Should I just try and bend things back a little with pliers? The amount of bending isn't really that bad, and it seems to an uneducated person like myself that the screen would be moving around a bit in the wind anyway, so I can' t believe that this is that critical.... I could probably get it 90% back to the original shape if I attempt to bend it back.


Thanks in advance.


----------



## PExeter

I just receieved mine too, and it was a little off, but I dont think it will affect it much...


----------



## Neil L

When my 4228 arrived, it was a little bent up as well. I don't think it will affect performance much, but I straightened mine out anyway. I'm just a perfectionist, I guess.


----------



## Keenan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RayL Jr.* /forum/post/0
> 
> *Preamplifiers/boosters*
> *Angle Linear PHEMT single stage preamplifier - to 20 dB, .4 dB noise*
> *Research Communications Type 9250 HDTV PHEMT LNA - 20 dB, .4 dB noise*
> *Research Communications Type 9248 TV LNA (75 ohms) - 20 dB, .4 dB noise*
> *Winegard AP-4700 UHF Pre-amplifier - 19 dB, 2.9 dB noise*
> *Winegard AP-8275 UHF Pre-amplifier - VHF 28 db, 2.8 noise UHF 29 dB, 2.9 dB noise*
> *Channel Master CM-7775 preamp - 26 dB, 2.0 dB noise*
> *Channel Master CM-7777 preamp - VHF 23 db, 2.8 noise UHF 26 dB, 2.0 dB noise*
> *Kuhne Electronic broadband UHF PHEMT preamplifier - 20 dB, 1.2-2 dB noise*
> *Sitco PA24 Series UHF preamplifier - 25 dB, 1.4 dB noise*
> *Radio Shack 15-2507 - 15 dB each main amp & preamp,*


----------



## bmcent1

Okay, I'm going to purchase the XG91, I'm sold and lots of signs point to a good chance of getting good reception here.


A couple questions:

Should I buy the AD "extended length J mount" or is there a better mounting option?


Is the J mount all that's needed or do I still need to buy a 1.5" mast from somewhere?


Last... I *doubt* that an attic mount it going to work in my location, but I still want to try that first. If an attic mount actually works out, do I still need to ground the antenna?


Thanks!!


----------



## greywolf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bmcent1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If an attic mount actually works out, do I still need to ground the antenna?



No wind, no static buildup. It's not necessary.


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keenan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Based on the above referenced notes, could one assume that the Winegard AP-8275 pre-amp is the best available..? Or, would the CM-7775 be just as good because of the lower noise number? Put, simply, what is the highest performance pre-amp available?
> 
> 
> BTW, thanks to all who have contributed in this thread, there is a wealth of info here, I'll admit that some of it is beyond me, but a great resource nevertheless.
> 
> 
> Thanks.



Keenan,


That would depend on what your definition of 'highest performance' was.









Most of the Winegard amplifiers have the same maximum output level before signal clipping occurs. (Clipping is very bad because it will absolutely kill DTV signal while it just makes NTSC horrible to watch.) So the difference in gain between the various Winegard pre-amps is how much input signal the pre-amp can handle before clipping at the output occurs.


So if you lived in a town in the middle of nowhere, where all of the NTSC channels were very snowy, maybe the AP8275 or the more popular AP8780 would be just your cup of tea. On the other hand, if you lived fairly close to the transmitter and were using the pre-amp to overcome the losses of your attic (antenna in the attic scenario), the lower gain AP8700 would be a more appropriate pre-amp.


Another thing that is often overlooked when comparing different brands of amplifiers is how many channels the gain is actually specified for. At UHF, the Winegard specified gain is for 5 TV channels, while Channel Master uses just 2 channels to specify its gain. In Houston we have 32 channels on the air and the pre-amp sees all of them, wether we watch them or not, wether they are analog or digital. Consequently, in Houston, the higher gain pre-amps overload even sooner than the manufacturers specs would have you belive. Also, keep in mind that it only takes one channel to cause the clipping. Just one extra strong channel can cause a pre-amp to wipe out all of the rest of the channels for you.










For the most part, a couple of tenths a dB difference in Noise Figure (NF) can be ignored. (And again, you have to know the manufacturers method of determining it before you can start splitting dBs.) However, the difference between a 7 dB and a 3 dB NF is significant. Pre-amps tend to have a 3 dB or less NF while line amps (distribution amps) tend to be up in the 5, 6, or 7 dB NF range. I know there are folks that will disagree with me on this one but the truth is, if you live inside of 60 miles from the transmitter and the NF is less than 3 dB, don't kill yourself trying to get a lower number.


You'll find the Channel Master 7777 a very popular pre-amplifier on this forum. It performs well in the field and in many different locations and situations. It doesn't overload 'too' easily. The VHF and UHF inputs can be split for combining two antennas. The CM7775 has one flaw in that it will not pass VHF like a Winegard AP4700 will. If your area has a broadcaster that is going to go back to VHF after the NTSC kill date, then the 7775 is going to present a problem for you.


The Winegard pre-amps are less popular here but not necessarily because of any performance issues. The Winegard amps are often harder to find locally, while the CM7777 seems to be available everywhere and can be easily taken back to the store for a refund. Someday, I'll get a hold of an AP8780 and test it against my CM7777, then I would be willing to say which one has the 'highest performance'.


Bob Chase

KHWB-TV


----------



## Keenan

bobchase, thanks for the reply. I should have given some additional info in my previous post.


My location is about 55-60 miles from the transmitter(Sutro Tower-SF) with two large peaks in the landscape as the crow flies so all I'm getting in reflected or bounced signals anyway. I'm currently using a CM7775 with a 91XG yagi style antenna mounted 70' in the air. I swapped out a CM4248 for the 91XG and it seems to have a bit better gain than the CM so that has prompted me to try and tweak out the rest of the system. I have considered horizontally mounting 2 91XGs but I'm not sure how much more gain that will give. Also contemplating using a horizontal plane adjuster as well. Getting expensive, but it's fun, when it works..










One more note, I have a local station inline with my path to the SF tower that will consistently come close to pegging the "signal meter"...you noted that a signal may overload the pre-amp, could this station cause me problems? Will I notice if it is?


Thanks again for the input.


----------



## holl_ands

I posted a spread sheet, PREAMP SPECS, which summarizes manufacturer specs along with the few actual measurements that I've found published:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota 

I also posted a spread sheet, DTV OVERLOAD CALC, which compares the (spec sheet) performance of several different Preamps, which can be tailored for other locations.


If you are in the Australian Outback, you might be able to use one of the high gain Preamps.

For the rest of us located within 15-30 miles of a tower, start with the lower gain models (and under perhaps 10-15 miles, better to forget it.)

Note that the new Winegard HDP-169 has a 5 dB higher overload spec than the other excellent W-G models.


Intermod products will be generated in a Preamp, even when there are moderate signal levels and strong signals will just make it worse.

These may be located on a frequency that you don't care about or is occupied by a signal that is much stronger than the interference,

in which case it may only be a problem during a signal fade event.

On the other hand, it is also likely to affect the weak signal that was the reason you bought the low noise Preamp for anyway.


The trick is to select a Preamp (and perhaps add a small attenuator on the input)

in order to maximize the SFDR (Spurious Free Dynamic Range):
http://www.odyseus.nildram.co.uk/Sys.../Linearity.pdf 
http://www.arl.army.mil/arlreports/2007/ARL-TR-4235.pdf 
http://www.rfcafe.com/references/art...dyn_range1.pdf 
http://www.rfcafe.com/references/art...dyn_range2.pdf


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bmcent1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Should I buy the AD "extended length J mount" or is there a better mounting option?
> 
> 
> Is the J mount all that's needed or do I still need to buy a 1.5" mast from somewhere?
> 
> 
> Last... I *doubt* that an attic mount it going to work in my location, but I still want to try that first. If an attic mount actually works out, do I still need to ground the antenna?



You can use the J mount, but you don't need to. Any mast connecting solution would work. It does appear as though you could attach an antenna directly to the J mount, but I'd be sure to make the post strictly vertical. You want to point your antenna at the horizon, not up in the air!


As our resident expert here said about grounding, you do not need to ground an indoor antenna.


----------



## deno

I was wondering, if I install a CM7775 preamp about a foot below my outside antenna, cut the coax and run thru the wall and attach to a wall plate, attach a seperate coax to the outside of the wall plate which would then go to the power supply, and then from the power supply to my satellite receiver, would the power from the power supply be able to reach the preamp ok, or would the wall plate degrade it's effectivness. Thanks in advance.


Deno


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deno* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...would the power from the power supply be able to reach the preamp ok, or would the wall plate degrade it's effectivness.



While each cut in your coax reduces your signal by a fraction of a dB, as long as the line is a straight-through line (i.e. no splitters,) there's no problems with using a wall plate with a preamplifier.


----------



## f300v10




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, shoot! Why didn't I think of this sooner?
> 
> 
> Get a second identical antenna and combine the two like MAX HD says. If the antennas are identical and the feedlines to the splitter are exactly the same length, you've got yourself a vertical stack and it should work just fine. (Point the antennas in precisely the same direction, too.)
> 
> 
> If it doesn't, you could still buy a Jointenna.
> 
> 
> But I'm betting that a vertical stack hooked up like this would work great - and it might even improve reception on other stations you're not getting.



Way back in March I posted about my reception issues. To re-cap, I live in a very wooded area, and use an XG42 Yagi. I keep having to adjust the antenna vertically as the leaves on the trees change with the seasons. Well I am back to wanting to try the vertical stack idea folks here suggested.


My question is what vertical separation to use with 2 XG42 Yagi from antennas direct. I emailed antennas direct, and they told me to ask the question here. Most of the stations I need are in the low 20's, and the highest is 39.


Thanks for any help on this.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *f300v10* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My question is what vertical separation to use with 2 XG42 Yagi from antennas direct. I emailed antennas direct, and they told me to ask the question here. Most of the stations I need are in the low 20's, and the highest is 39.



While others will be able to tell you the specific height of a wave at 626 Mhz, I would suggest a little experimentation. 36" is a good starting point, and you can work out or in from there as your results suggest. The measurement is from the active-element to active-element, not from the tip of the reflector screens. When I tried a vertical stack of Channel Master 3023s, I couldn't space them closer than 36" because of the reflectors.


----------



## f300v10

Thanks sregener, I will let y'all know how it works out.


----------



## RayL Jr.

Thanks holl_ands, a lot of info & research!







I subtitled the list to make it easier to navigate & added those 3 links you gave:

*Amplifiers, preamplifiers & DTV info*
*Digital TV Signal Distortion & Interference* 9/10/05
*High Dynamic Range Receiver Parameters* 9/10/05
*RF, RFIC & Microwave Theory, Design* - RF... amplifier design & theory 9/10/05


Also Polaris, the North Star (if anyone's interested on positioning) is slowly moving & it's position changes slightly over the years:


Epoch/year, Right Ascension (h:m), Declination (deg:m)


1900.0 1:22.6 +88.77

1950.0 1:48.8 +89.03

1990.0 2:21.3 +89.22

2000.0 2:31.8 +89.26

2010.0 2:43.6 +89.31

2050.0 3:47.5 +89.46


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *f300v10* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Way back in March I posted about my reception issues. To re-cap, I live in a very wooded area, and use an XG42 Yagi. I keep having to adjust the antenna vertically as the leaves on the trees change with the seasons. Well I am back to wanting to try the vertical stack idea folks here suggested.
> 
> 
> My question is what vertical separation to use with 2 XG42 Yagi from antennas direct. I emailed antennas direct, and they told me to ask the question here. Most of the stations I need are in the low 20's, and the highest is 39.
> 
> 
> Thanks for any help on this.



If you have two vertical locations where sometimes one spot works and the other doesn't and which one works switches from time to time then a good starting stategy is to put one antenna in each spot. What that should do is cancel the path that is causing the fading.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *f300v10* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Way back in March I posted about my reception issues. To re-cap, I live in a very wooded area, and use an XG42 Yagi. I keep having to adjust the antenna vertically as the leaves on the trees change with the seasons. Well I am back to wanting to try the vertical stack idea folks here suggested.
> 
> 
> My question is what vertical separation to use with 2 XG42 Yagi from antennas direct. I emailed antennas direct, and they told me to ask the question here. Most of the stations I need are in the low 20's, and the highest is 39.
> 
> 
> Thanks for any help on this.



36 inches would be reasonable. You may have to experiment a little as well. The calculation which seems to work best in practice for me is S=51/bw where bw is the beamwidth in the plane of stacking and S is the center-center spacing in wavelengths at the lowest channel you want to receive. It follows from this that narrower beamwidth antennas require more spacing. You may need to email antennasdirect for the vertical beamwidth (-3db) on the xg42. See http://www.astronwireless.com/stacking.html 


I guess you have already decided against upgrading to the xg91 for some reason? That might be the simplest first step.


----------



## milt9

with regard to the local station inline to your sf stations, you can put a quarter wave stub on the frequency of the local station on your antenna lead in.

milt


----------



## Keenan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *milt9* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> with regard to the local station inline to your sf stations, you can put a quarter wave stub on the frequency of the local station on your antenna lead in.
> 
> milt



Could you elaborate? Is this something like a notch filter? The station which pegs the meter is 22 - 516.25. I have to use the pre-amp to have a prayer of getting the distant(60 mi) SF stations, but CH 22 does not need the pre-amp as the transmitter is only 10-15 mi away. I'm concerned that this signal may overload the pre-amp and cause issues with other signals. Thanks.


----------



## milt9




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keenan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Could you elaborate? Is this something like a notch filter? The station which pegs the meter is 22 - 516.25. I have to use the pre-amp to have a prayer of getting the distant(60 mi) SF stations, but CH 22 does not need the pre-amp as the transmitter is only 10-15 mi away. I'm concerned that this signal may overload the pre-amp and cause issues with other signals. Thanks.



yes it is a notch filter. quarter wave of 516.25 open end will notch out ch 22

milt


----------



## AntAltMike

I doubt that there is any discernible benefit in selecting a vertical stacking distance for UHF antennas any greater than one wavelength. I once experienced a significant improvement in front-to-back ratio by spacing two VHF high band antennas at exactly one half a wavelength apart. The whole experience was a fluke, actually. I was taking down and discarding abandoned antennas on a highrise, and when I took off an old, abandoned, unconnected channel 9 antenna, which, through luck, was exactly half a wavelength below the channel 7 antenna, all of a sudden the ghost from a rear reflection became much stronger. I then bolted the channel 9 antenna back on the mast exactly where it had been and the ghost image practically went away. Apaparently, some kind of resonance was taking place between the elements on these antennas. When I moved the disconnected channel 9 antenna up about a foot and down about a foot, the ghost image got stronger. I then bough another channel 7 antenna exactly like the one already in use and spaced them at one half wavelength and the ghost became nearly invisible (isn't that what ghosts are supposed to be?).


If you know that just one channel is your problem channel, you might as well start by putting them 3 feet apart and then move one up and down incrementally until the performance of the problem channel peaks, but you will probably enjoy better performance by following deconvolver's advice and just finding two "sweert spots" for different channels and using an A/B switch as appropriate.


----------



## Carl_Ballard

I'm going to try an outdoor antenna next weekend and have a question. How long do I need to hold a direction with the antenna. Does the HD tuner take a while to lock on, or does it see the signal immediately. That is, can I sweep the antenna, or do I have to try a poistion and wait some period before trying another?


----------



## Keenan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *milt9* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> yes it is a notch filter. quarter wave of 516.25 open end will notch out ch 22
> 
> milt



Thanks, do you know where I can find such a filter? All I have been able to come up with are CATV channel specific filters, can't seem to locate any channel specific OTA RF filters.


----------



## jucojames

I am using an indoor old school antenna that gets UHF and VHF, but two of my locals send HD over VHF. Is there something I can do to determine/insure that I a receiving the HD signal and not the analog? thanks


----------



## POWERFUL

yeah it should be on a digital sub the number would be for ex. 11-1 or 11.1


----------



## deconvolver

A quarter wave stub is a tuned piece of cable spliced into the antenna feed line. It must be trimmed for the velocity factor of the coax being used which varies somewhat between production runs. You can also use a Channelmaster Join-Tenna (which come pre-adjusted to the desired channel) to notch out strong channels.
http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/TVS/Passives.htm 

The VHF models will affect adjacent channels and the UHF models will affect channels within 5 channels of the one being blocked. You can order Join-Tennas from Warren Electronics. The UHF ones need to be tuned to the selected channel so they take a couple of weeks to get in.
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm


----------



## Keenan

Okay, so there is no way to just notch out one channel? If I understand correctly, by using a join-tenna for CH 22, all lose 5 channels on each side of 22 as well?


The quarter wave stub, will that have a narrower notch? And if so, where do you obtain them, or do they need to be custom made....is it something you can buy, or do I need to make it myself?


Thanks


----------



## AntAltMike

A Channel Master UHF Jointenna will generally significantly weaken two channels above and below the coupled channel, and will slightly weaken the third channel above and below, which may be inconsequential if the signals from the third channel above and below are healthy. So, depending on what channels you are intent on preserving, you might even fare better with a channel 21 or 23 Jointenna.


You can significantly weaken a single channel using a Winegard tunable, dual notch filter (UT-2700), but you will have trouble tuning it without a spectrum analyzer.


Do you need channel 22? The blocking path of a Jointenna is more of a band reject filter than a narrow notch filter, so the rejected channel that passes through it is quite often "viewable", if analog, or processable, if digital, but when you put a genuine, sharp notch filter on an analog or digital waveform, the resultant signal is often unviewable or unprocessable.


Eagle Comtronics and Microwave Filter both make inline filters that will suppress just one channel with unintended attenuation [pretty much confined to one channel above and one below. If you have found some retail dealer who will sell you a such cylindrical, "single channel trap" type cable filters, but if they will only supply them tuned to standard, cable TV frequencies, yet if they are cheap enough, you might buy a channel 73 and 74 filter and see how they do for you.


Someone selling retail makes a band reject filter that wipes out half a dozen channels that includes UHF 22, which is just 2Mz (1/3 channel bandwidth) above cable channel 73, and I think it has about 50dB of maximum depth, versus maybe 20dB for a Jointenna, so if you can find that product (Channel Vision maybe, or Channel Plus), it might meet your needs.


If time permits, I might dork around with a quarter wave stub by sourcing white noise into a coax and looking at the spectrum of the attenuated output, but that sounds more like a Ham radio solution than a broadcast TV solution. I suspect that the notch it creates would be weak and wide, and, unless you did a nice job of designing it, it might act like an antenna and pick up undesired signal.


If a quarter wave stub is what I think it is, then if you want to experiment with your own, buy a BNC "T" adaptor (maybe available at Radio Shack) and three, "F" female-to-BNC male adaptors and use that to do a neat job of tapping into the coax. Then try cutting several different, short pieces of coax to use as stubs.


If I'm doing this right, I think the quarter wavelength of channel 22 propagated through the air is just under 6", and so, figuring that RG-6 often has a velocity factor of .78 and RG-59 around .66, then I think that would make the optimal stub around 4" to 5".


----------



## RBMD

Advice appreciated. I live 54 miles from my HD uhf towers. I have a huge Wineguard HD8200p uhf/vhf antenna going to a winegard preamp ( 29 db uhf/vhf) at the base of my antenna which is 35 ft off the ground then split to 2 tv's with the cable runs bout 75 Ft to each tv. My tuner meters uhf usually show signals about 70-90 in good wheather. My antenna unfortunately points to fir trees which I cannot avoid which are about 30 ft taller than the antenna located about 100ft from the antenna. Last night a big storm rolled in with black clouds and thunder and very heavy rain, during which I lost all signals except analog receiption remained excellent. Are my signals just too weak during times like this or actually are the signals too strong with multipath problems. Anything to try? Just accept? It rains all the time in Oregon, and having installed this set up in the summer with dry weather may have been misleading. Appreciate help.

Rich


----------



## deconvolver

Quarter or half wave transmission line stubs are sometimes recommended as traps to eliminate unwanted strong channels. Another choice for notching out channels is the Join-Tenna from Channelmaster. Channelmaster states that the VHF Join-Tenna affects channels adjacent to the one being notched and that the UHF Join-Tenna affects up to five channels on either side of the notched channel. I was curious how a stub affects other channels so I used the 4nec2 program to model an antenna with a stubbed transmission line. I started with the double bowtie model from the hdtvprimer website that can be downloaded from http://hometown.aol.com/kq6qv/SIMS/ thanks to the creator of the original models. I chose the double bowtie because it has a low SWR (typically less than 2:1) when unmodified. I then added a half meter transmission line to an eighth meter (1/4 wave for 600Mhz) open stub to notch channel 35 followed by another half meter transmission line. The result showed that the SWR was still sixty to one at 8 channels away from the stubbed channel and that over the range from channel 15 to 65 the SWR was above ten to one. Next I replaced the open stub with a quarter meter (1/2 wave at 600 Mhz) shorted stub. As long as you aren't trying to pass VHF then a shorted stub is a possibility for UHF (shorted stubs also notch the doubled frequency so the SWR from a channel 14 notch would also rise again near the top of the UHF band). The result was better than the open stub- at eight channels from the notch the SWR was about fourteen to one and the typical SWR for the UHF band was about seven to one. See the enclosed plots of the SWR for the three cases modelled over the range of channel 15 to 65. Overall the results suggest that the insertion loss for the quarter wave stub means other notch solutions are preferred and that the Join-Tenna is probably a better choice than either stub.


----------



## deconvolver

Here are the plots.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here are the plots.



I needed to make the image less than 800 pixels wide so I cropped off channel 65. Note that the SWR is computed only for the odd numbered channels.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keenan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Okay, so there is no way to just notch out one channel? If I understand correctly, by using a join-tenna for CH 22, all lose 5 channels on each side of 22 as well?
> 
> 
> The quarter wave stub, will that have a narrower notch? And if so, where do you obtain them, or do they need to be custom made....is it something you can buy, or do I need to make it myself?
> 
> 
> Thanks



A quarter wave stub is a true notch filter but it will also degrade channels on either side of the notch. A half wave shorted stub is a better solution if you aren't trying to pass VHF on the same line but any of the other solutions is probably better than a stub. I analyzed the VSWR and reflection coefficient of stubs to see how wide a notch they create. I posted the result in the local HDTV info and reception forum's antenna thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=381623 

The reflection coefficient shows how much signal gets reflected back to the antenna instead of received. Whenever the SWR is six to one or greater a significant amount of signal is lost. I would therefore not recommend a quarter wave open stub and I would try another solution before trying the half wave shorted stub. In fact I have ordered two Join-Tennas for my brother in-law to trap the digital and analog channels from a local PAX affiliate that is blasting him but luckily he doesn't need any stations near the notch.


----------



## Nitewatchman

Note: Deleted my post concerning 1/4 wave stub filters as after submitting the post I noticed deconvolver had just posted about the same time with better info(including his post in antenna thread in reception area).


----------



## AntAltMike

Channel Vision 3205 71-78 "notch" filter wipes out broadcast channels 20-27. I think its depth is around 50dB.


----------



## Keenan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Channel Vision 3205 71-78 "notch" filter wipes out broadcast channels 21-27. I think its depth is around 50dB.



That would work, it will wipe out my ABC feed on CH 24 but that's okay. It will also help with a "strong" signal I'm getting from a transmitter further south I don't want as well.


The CM JoinTenna 21/23 I may give a try also if it has a liitle narrower bandwidth cut.


Okay, thanks, I think I know what I need to get, now are these sold by anyone other than the manufacturer? If we're talking $10-20 difference between suppliers then I don't really care, but I would hate to pay double or close to double if I don't have to.


Thanks everyone for your help.


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RBMD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Advice appreciated. I live 54 miles from my HD uhf towers. I have a huge Wineguard HD8200p uhf/vhf antenna going to a winegard preamp ( 29 db uhf/vhf) at the base of my antenna which is 35 ft off the ground then split to 2 tv's with the cable runs bout 75 Ft to each tv. My tuner meters uhf usually show signals about 70-90 in good wheather. My antenna unfortunately points to fir trees which I cannot avoid which are about 30 ft taller than the antenna located about 100ft from the antenna. Last night a big storm rolled in with black clouds and thunder and very heavy rain, during which I lost all signals except analog receiption remained excellent. Are my signals just too weak during times like this or actually are the signals too strong with multipath problems. Anything to try? Just accept? It rains all the time in Oregon, and having installed this set up in the summer with dry weather may have been misleading. Appreciate help.
> 
> Rich



Rich,


If the analog channels were truly excellent, then you may have been overloading the STB or digital tuner at the input due to high signal levels out of your preamp. On the other hand, if there were diagonal lines (bars) moving through the analog picture, then your pre-amplifier was being overloaded. Also, if there was a buzzing sound in the audio when the screen tended to get bright (a white background in a commercial) then the preamp was overloading. To solve that, then you need to reduce the effective gain of the pre-amp with a fixed pad or use a pre-amp with less gain.


However, if the analog pictures were crystal clear, you may be able to solve this problem by putting a 6 dB pad on the input to the digital tuner (or STB) after the pre-amp. Some folks like to use the Radio Shack variable attenuator instead for this kind of problem.


Bob Chase

KHWB-TV


PS The fir trees aren't the problem either if the analog pictures are excellent.


----------



## Keenan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wendell R. Breland* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> keenan, as deconvolver said earlier, a 1/4λ or 1/2λ stub will not work very well for this application. If anyone is interested I can post the dB loss vs frequency for a stub for channel 21.
> 
> 
> Blonder Tongue has a unit that will work, the model is MWT-U . This is pro gear and it will cost you. If you download the spec sheet you can see why.
> 
> Dishplace has the lowest price that I have found. You may have better luck.
> 
> 
> I use a Winegard PR-9032 UHF antenna (very high gain) with a Winegard AP-4700 pre-amp. This pre-amp was chosen for several reasons Bob Chase has listed above. This combo was explanied in this AVS post. Several of the TV towers are less than 20 miles away.



So performance-wise the MWT unit would be the best bet? Cost-wise the cable CH 71-78 notch filter is probably the least expensive but has a much wider band of suppression? And the CM JoinTenna 21/23 probably in between on cost and performance?


$190 is a bit steep for the MWT, but I'm not opposed to something half that price...OTOH, if the MWT is really the best tool for the job then the MWT will be the I'll get.


I'm using a 91XG from AntennaDirecT with a CM 7775 pre-amp. The towers are 55-65 miles away.


I'm also considering stacking 2 91XGs horizontally for a bit more gain and directionality. Also considering the elevation adjuster like the one shown below.


----------



## RBMD

Thanks Bob,

I put a RS 6db attenuator before the tuner and 2 of my lower signal stations evened out and went up on the meter from 58 to 65. Can't tell if I lost a couple of signals as it's 2:00 am and they may be off the air. I also have to wait for rain. Thanks for the help.

Rich


----------



## jucojames

If I am using OTA (older rabit ears), how can I tell if it is receiving a 21 analog versus a 21.1 digital signal? The indoor antenna I have has a clock-style nob that can be switched that affects the signal but I don't have a manual that explains what this does. That is the only "setting" I see that I can imagine could make a difference. Sorry about such an ignorant question......


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jucojames* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I am using OTA (older rabit ears), how can I tell if it is receiving a 21 analog versus a 21.1 digital signal? The indoor antenna I have has a clock-style nob that can be switched that affects the signal but I don't have a manual that explains what this does. That is the only "setting" I see that I can imagine could make a difference. Sorry about such an ignorant question......



Your antenna is receiving all the frequencies simultaneously. What determines whether you are tuning to the analog or digital signal from the broadcaster is your TV or set-top-box (STB.) The TV or STB must be able to receive and decode ATSC 8VSB signals. Your antenna has nothing to do with which signal you're watching, just as your antenna has nothing to do with whether you're watching ABC or CBS.


There are two types of switches I've seen on antennas. One is an "on/off" switch that controls an amplifier. Generally speaking, you'll want an amplifier turned off for an indoor antenna when receiving digital signals. The other is a "directional" switch that has multiple points you can turn to in a 360-degree radius. That type of switch is supposed to bias the antenna in different directions, but rotating the antenna itself is probably a better choice.


----------



## jucojames

I appreciate your patience - you are like a kindergarden teacher! I knew the answer was probably very simple.


----------



## Keenan

Then that's the one I'll use. I'm assuming a signal generator and 'scope could be used to tune the trap on the bench before mounting?


----------



## Keenan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wendell R. Breland* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No, a spectrum analyzer with a tracking generator is needed to do it properly. An O'scope is not the proper device. A good RF signal generator and field strength meter would get you close.
> 
> 
> An alternate method: Connect a cable direct to your antenna and a receiving device that has some type of signal level indicator. Tune the undesired channel and peak antenna for max level. Note the signal level. Insert the MWT-U and tune for minimal signal level.



Can this be done downstream from the pre-amp? And then I assume it should be mounted before the pre-amp for final installation?


----------



## luvu2hrs

Newb here, really need some of your expert advice. Thanks in advance for your knowledge. Here goes. Bought the Shack HD recieverand hdtv indoor antenna on sale. I live in a multistory building in Brooklyn NY and reside on the seventh floor. My HD transmitters are within 4 miles of my place. Right now the meter reads a steady 49 and about 17 dbs. I get no picture right now, and I know i need a reading of about 75 to get picture (I tried the same setup at my girlfriends house and she gets channel 5,7,9 and she live about 15 miles away from the HD transmitters). Antennaweb website reccomends i should get a red coded outdoor multidirectional antenna. I do have a terrace, but i would like to try and figure this problem out with a indoor antenna and amplifier if possible. If it isn't possible, what do you guys and gals recommed i setup on my terrace without my neigbors complaing. Thanks for your advice in advance.


----------



## Keenan

Great! Thanks all for the help and info, I'll let you know how it turns out.


----------



## atye

A SolidSignal rep suggested a Winegard PR8800 for me. I'm almost exactly 60 miles from the towers in the Twin Cities, Minnesota. I was looking at the ChannelMaster 8 bay rig, but this guy said he always suggests the Winegard for the Cities towers. Any opinions about this?


----------



## AntAltMike

With an MWT-u, Keenan will be swatting a gnat with a sledge hammer, and probably missing it.


His local channel 22 is about forty degrees off his San Francisco transmission path. Unless he has been forced to misaim his antenna because of obstructions, then the signal strength coming off his antenna couldn't possible exceed 30dBmV at that angle and distance, and is surely less than that. So it is either not driving his preamp into to excessive intermodulation distortion, which, with non-adjacent channels, is usually all that we care about, or is barely doing so.


He says that his signal meter is "pegged" on channel 22. What kind of tuner does he have that gives an indication of analog signal strength? Is this really 22 analog, or is there a "22.1" digital that does not show up in the "antennaweb" table generated with Keenan's zip code? And unless it is denominated in dBmV, it is not indicative of an overload condition and gives no cause for concern. Such a primitive meter could peg at a certain S/N ratio safe signal level or some combination thereof, just as similar digital meters reach 100% when error correction is at zero yet the absolute signal strength is anywhere above maybe -50dBm, leaving lots of headroom.


If his tuner really has an analog signal meter, I'd expect it to measure just the visual carrier, which means that using it to primitively tune a notch filter would not suppress the aural carrier, which he may desire to do. To knock channel 22 down for $30 instead of for $190, what he needs to do is buy a Winegard UT-2700 (see post below) and maybe four 10dB attenuator pads. Pad down the line so that the picture is grainy, and then tune one notch to knock out the audio and the other to decimate the video. Then, remove the attenuator pads. The aural carrier of 22 analog is about 7Mz below the ATSC channel 24 pilot (San Francisco ABC), so if channel 22 analog really is 40 to 50dB stronger than channel 24 digital (which is possible), _and_ if the problem is that the undesired channel 22 analog signal is overloading the ATSC tuner when tuning 24-digital (which I'm inclined to doubt), then he would be more concerned with attenuating the channel 22 aural carrier rather than its visual carrier, which is over 11 Mz below the channel 24 ATSC pilot.


The MWT series filters were designed a long time ago to meet certain situations for mitigating interference on analog channels. A BT MWT with both notches tuned to the same carrier attenuates it by some 60dB, but the notch, defined by its 3dB points, is very narrow (I think under 4Mz at UHF frequencies), which is important when one is trying to slightly reduce an aural carrier without degrading the quality of the color burst, but they are of limited usefulness in suppressing digital channels.


I recently had to weaken the unintended. off-axis reception of a distant station in a master antenna DTV reception array. I used an old Channel Master dual, vernier UHF trap. Its notches are no where near as deep as the MWT notches, which, by itself, is not really a problem in most digital applications, since the capture ratio of the desired DTV signal is pretty low. I don't know how low, but it is well under 20dB. Anyway, the dual notch left me with three peaks across the plateau, which meant that, by that one measure, its performance was inferior to what a Jointenna could do for me.


But unfortunately, the Jointenna cases leak like sieves and this installation was less than two miles from another DTV transmitter, so if I used the Jointenna, I would have been leaking in another undesired signal. I therefore stayed with the Channel Master trap. (Note: the UT-2700 also has a plastic case, and invites ingress problems in urban situations). I'm going to have someone custom make a solid channel 45/46 band reject for me, which is not that difficult to construct because that coax only needs to pass channel 39 and below, and channel 50 and above. In fact, I just might order channel 39 low pass and channel 50 high pass "tier traps" to accomplish the same thing.


Keenan also has Univision on his intended target line broadcasting on DT 47 and an analog 68 at a distance of maybe 20 or so miles. I would worry about those more.


With all the money he'll be saving with the Winegard UT-2700, he can buy a channel 68 Jointenna and a channel 47 (or better yet, a channel 49) Jointenna and use them as channel suppression filters. A channel 49 Jointenna will knock his channel 47 down by maybe 10dB, which is as much suppression as he could possibly need, but will leave his channel 45 UPN from San Francisco unscathed. With each Jointenna, put an F-75T terminator on its "single channel input" port and use the other two ports to form the band reject filter. Then, mix and match them with your tuned Winegard channel 22 analog reject filter. There will be eight permutations in all. For each permutation, record the so-called "signal strength" numbers for the San Francisco DTV stations. Unfortunately, these need to be inserted between the antenna and the preamp, since the objective here is to see if reducing any of those inputs reduces the debilitating effect of intermodulation distortion in the preamp. Then, use just the one, two or three of these components that optimizes the San Francisco signal level numbers.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...Most of the Winegard amplifiers have the same maximum output level before signal clipping occurs. (Clipping is very bad because it will absolutely kill DTV signal while it just makes NTSC horrible to watch.) So the difference in gain between the various Winegard pre-amps is how much input signal the pre-amp can handle before clipping at the output occurs.
> 
> 
> ...Another thing that is often overlooked when comparing different brands of amplifiers is how many channels the gain is actually specified for. At UHF, the Winegard specified gain is for 5 TV channels, while Channel Master uses just 2 channels to specify its gain. In Houston we have 32 channels on the air and the pre-amp sees all of them, wether we watch them or not, wether they are analog or digital. Consequently, in Houston, the higher gain pre-amps overload even sooner than the manufacturers specs would have you belive. Also, keep in mind that it only takes one channel to cause the clipping. Just one extra strong channel can cause a pre-amp to wipe out all of the rest of the channels for you.



With most modern amplifiers, each time you double the number of input channels of equal strength, the maximum output level of the preamp goes down by 3dB, so if a preamp can output 51dBmV with a three channel load, then it can only output 48dB with a six channel load.


Some amplifiers of inferior design can't handle large channel loads at all. For example, the popular Tru Spec TA-25's maximum output seems to drop by 8dB or more every time the channel load is doubled. They are therefore absolutely useless as cable TV amplifiers.


I don't think that the problem with preamplifiers, when overloaded, is clipping, as much as it is intermodulation distortion. If clipping were the problem, then the analog channel on which the symptom would first and most severely appear would be the strongest channel, when, in fact, it is the weakest that first suffers.


I know of no way to measure intermodulation distortion, so I just have to accept the manufacturer's specs regarding it on faith, just as I do when I design complex satellite intermediate frequency distribution systems. We try to keep something called Third Order intermodulation distortion developed intermediate frequency satellite signal RF distribution below -40dBc. We do so because the manufacturers of the receivers say to.


Spaun, a major supplier of commercial RF distribution products, rates the maximum output of its products in microvolts, such that their amplification products will not exceed -35dBc in 3rd Order IMD with a one "channel" load, so first, we subtract 108.75 to convert to dBm, then we subtract either 12 or 15 dB depending on whether the load is 16 or 32 transponders, then we derate it by another 2.5dB to further reduce the 3rd Order IMD from -35dBc to -40dBc because for each dB the input goes down, the intermodulation distortion goes down by 2dB. Spaun references their products to -35dBc because that is the benchmark level for analog picture quality, sort of like 46dB S/N ratio is for picture quality.


Then, if there is a second amplifier in cascade with the first, we have to further limit the 3rd order IMD developed at each stage to -46dBc, because it goes up by 6 dB every time we double the number of amplifiers in the cascade.


Broadcast frequency distribution amplifier manufacturers publish specs for Composite Triple Beat, Cross Modulation and Composite Second Order intermodulation. As long as we use only one amplifier, we don't need to concern ourselves with the implications of those ratings, but when we cascade them, we do have to consider them.


As far as I know, the major manuacturers of cable TV RF amplification equipment are still rating their equipment based on the peak signal strength of analog carriers. About three years ago, I spent half a day on the phone talking to the technical service departments of several major manufacturers, trying to get them to estimate what kind of digital, RMS signal levels would develop undesired intermodulation byproducts that would exceed any industry recognized arbitrary standard for their amplifiers. I might as well have been talking to them in Chinese. In fairness to the manufacturers, they surely don't assign the task of answering telephone queries to their design engineers, but it bothers me that I am still "flying in the dark" when I attempt to estimate the maximum loading of my distribution amplifiers that have mixed digital and analog loads.


When I view the "+1" digital channels in my market (45/46, 50/51 and 56/57) on my BTSA-5 spectrum analyzer, I observe that, visually, the digital plateau is about 20dB below the lower adjacent channel visual carrier when I set my spectrum analyzer at a 1Mz bandwidth. Figuring that the bandwidth correction factor would bring the actual, 6Mz value of the digital signal up by about 8dB, I then try to set the rest of the digital channels at the same level or slightly below.


How much do those digital channels further load the amplifier? Beats me! They obviously contain a lot more RF energy than do analog signals of the same nominal voltage level, but I don't know how to combined these unlike terms for calculating amplifier loading.


I typically set up a headend such that the three or four strongest analog channels are at a level such that, if they were the only load present, then the launch amplifier output would still be a few dB below its maximum rated output for that load, and then I add about a dozen digital signals that are 15 to 20dB below that level, and then there are half a dozen additional analog signals at levels about 5 dB or so below the strongest analog signals.


I haven't yet experienced any symptoms of amplifier overloading, which is to say, I have never had a resident's receiver fail to process signals that I could process at the headend, but still, I'd surely like to be able to better calculate my distortion power ceilings because there are some large buildings I design broadcast HDTV headends for existing distribution where I need to deliver every dBmV I can to make sure the signals reach the bottom floor units, but right now, I generally do not exceed levels of about 55dBmV analog and maybe 35dBmV digital at 700Mz. But since these signals are being fed into loop systems that were engineered for 60 to 66dBmV VHF input signals, they sometimes result in grainy analog UHF pictures on the lower floors. If the UHF signal levl drops to, say, -15dBmV analog peak at 700 Mz, then the RMS digital signal level at that point would typically be about -35dBmV. In that situation, the UHF analog looks horrible, but the digital signal strength is still sufficient as long as they don't get piggy and split it, but I need a greater launch level than I feel I can safely develop presently, otherwise I have to keep all of the internal wiring perfect, which is not always practical.


----------



## AntAltMike

I pay $19 each for UT-2700s, but you can't buy them where I do. Here is a web page that lists them for under $30:

Winegard UHF TV Antenna Off-Air Signal / Frequency Trap, Variable, Part # UT-2700, UT2700

Item No.: TRPW27

Price: $29.95 


And here is someone who lists Blonder Tongue MWT-U Notch Filters for just $111.55, which is about what I would pay to the vendor I would likely buy them from, but I don't know if this company sells retail.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *luvu2hrs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Newb here, really need some of your expert advice. Thanks in advance for your knowledge. Here goes. Bought the Shack HD recieverand hdtv indoor antenna on sale. I live in a multistory building in Brooklyn NY and reside on the seventh floor. My HD transmitters are within 4 miles of my place. Right now the meter reads a steady 49 and about 17 dbs. I get no picture right now, and I know i need a reading of about 75 to get picture (I tried the same setup at my girlfriends house and she gets channel 5,7,9 and she live about 15 miles away from the HD transmitters). Antennaweb website reccomends i should get a red coded outdoor multidirectional antenna. I do have a terrace, but i would like to try and figure this problem out with a indoor antenna and amplifier if possible. If it isn't possible, what do you guys and gals recommed i setup on my terrace without my neigbors complaing. Thanks for your advice in advance.



First of all, when trying to get a reading for an individual channel that was missed in the scan you need to tune to the digital channel number not the analog one. Once the receiver locks the signal it will re-map the digital number back to the old analog number with something like "-1" added to it. So for instance for WABC you put in 45 then check the meter reading; once the channel comes in it will display as channel 7-1. I expect that an amplifier may cause more problems than it solves because an overloaded amplifier or receiver has terrible performance. A directional antenna like the zenith silver sensor usually works better than an omni antenna as long as re-aiming the antenna is not an issue. That is because in a city a mis-mash of reflected signals that interfere with each other often exists; a directional antenna helps in selecting only the best signal. You should be able to get more specific advice in the NY,NY OTA thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6166989


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *atye* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A SolidSignal rep suggested a Winegard PR8800 for me. I'm almost exactly 60 miles from the towers in the Twin Cities, Minnesota. I was looking at the ChannelMaster 8 bay rig, but this guy said he always suggests the Winegard for the Cities towers. Any opinions about this?



The Winegard is lighter, and has a slightly different performance curve, but in real-world use, the difference between the two is probably minimal. Either should work well for you, and if they don't, switching to the other wouldn't make a difference.


----------



## Keenan

AntAltMike, thanks for those posts. I'm on my way to the dentist so I don't have time to digest them them yet but I can give you a bit more info. The "signal meter" I'm using is the one in a Dish 942 sat receiver so no doubt it's not entirely accurate for what I need to do. What it tells me is that when tuned to 22.1 or 22.2 the graph style meter is pegged at 100%. I can get a couple of Sutro stations at around 50-65%. The station is KCRB with analog 22 and digital 22.1 and 22.2. And you're right about 47 and 68, they are also strong as well but not as strong as 22.


My actual location is,


Lat 38.4473457

Lon 122.6992493


I don't recall what Sutro Tower or San Bruno Mt transmitters are at but those are the 2 I'm mainly concerned with.


Attached is a PDF map of the transmitter locations in the SF bay area.

 

Towers_All2.pdf 286.109375k . file


----------



## Will Collier

My house still has an ancient (1970's) era TV antenna attached to the chimmney; I still use it for SD PIP occasionally. It picks up the stronger VHF (analog) channels pretty clearly, and several of the UHF channels with varying amounts of fuzz and/or static. It doesn't have a rotation motor, but according to the HD maps, I need a "Red" antenna for all the stations in my metro area (Atlanta), which are fortunately clustered in a fairly small wedge southeast of my house.


N00b time: any chance this old clunker would work with an HD tuner, perhaps along with an added preamp? Sure would be nice, particularly from a cost/hassle perspective...


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keenan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> AntAltMike, thanks for those posts. I'm on my way to the dentist so I don't have time to digest them them yet but I can give you a bit more info. The "signal meter" I'm using is the one in a Dish 942 sat receiver so no doubt it's not entirely accurate for what I need to do. What it tells me is that when tuned to 22.1 or 22.2 the graph style meter is pegged at 100%. I can get a couple of Sutro stations at around 50-65%. The station is KCRB with analog 22 and digital 22.1 and 22.2. And you're right about 47 and 68, they are also strong as well but not as strong as 22.
> 
> 
> My actual location is,
> 
> 
> Lat 38.4473457
> 
> Lon 122.6992493
> 
> 
> I don't recall what Sutro Tower or San Bruno Mt transmitters are at but those are the 2 I'm mainly concerned with.
> 
> 
> Attached is a PDF map of the transmitter locations in the SF bay area.



Digital receiver graphs don't really show signal strength so you can't tell if KRCB's signal is too strong or not. Some ways to reduce overload are to use a lower gain more overload resistant pre-amp like the Winegard AP-8700 (as long as the receiver doesn't overload) or to use antenna directivity to reduce the interferor. You have 30 degrees between KRCB and the SF towers, with a horizontal stack you could adjust their spacing until KRCB is notched while pointing towards the SF towers. I think that spacing would be at 300/524*(0.5)/sin(30) meters or about 22.5 inches center to center (it's OK if the reflectors overlap a bit). KRCB is at 22 analog and 23 digital (which re-maps to 22.1 & 22.2). So to reduce its power a filter would need to notch both channel's 22 and 23. A Join-Tenna for channel 23 would work and probably only affect channels 19 and 27 slightly if at all. Here is a list of the digital channels near you, note that the reciever will re-map the channel number to the old analog number with -1 or -2 appended etc:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state...lon2=57&size=9


----------



## Keenan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wendell R. Breland* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I alluded to this in Post # 89 by stating what I was using and why. keenan did not seem interested so I did not pursue any further.



It's not that I wasn't interested, I'm just trying trying to absorb all the info presented. I freely admit that a lot of this is over my head. I know see that you gave that info _because_ the towers were close. When I originally read it, I saw the reference to 20 miles and since my desired stations are at 50-60 miles I did not give it the attention it deserved.










I really do appreciate all the info all of you have presented and I'm just trying to consolidate everything down into an approach I should take. My antenna is 70' in the air on top of a tree so trips ups and down need to be at a minimum.


I haven't purchased anything yet so what I do is still on the table. It may very well be that the channel in question is not harming reception of the further located stations and I guess my original query was if steps could be taken to insure that it doesn't.


I think at this point, I will go with dual 91XGs stacked horizontally and spaced as deconvolver suggests, and I'm probably leaning toward the JoinTenna for ch 23.


Would the ability to adjust the horizontal plane remotely be of value? The cost to do such would be around $350. Money is not an issue if the functionality increases at least somewhat. Of course it's impossible to say would it be worth it, I suppose I'm asking simply is it a worthy modification?


I have no line of sight whatsoever to the SF towers, and probably not to the CH 22 tower either, so everything I get is bounced from somewhere.


----------



## suncom3

please help me figure this out, I have a channel master 3018 and a hd tivo, I get fox and wavy in the 90% range,but cbs and ch 13 wvec,keep going from 60 % to back to 0 % constantly over and over,Its odd that at night time it seems to level out,Ive tried moving the ant from 263 deg to 259,it doesnt help. this ant is about the same range as the 4228.


I was going to try and just get a 4228 from domes but they want 100 bucks for it and it retails for 59 bucks,whats the deal with that?


----------



## AntAltMike

As far as Keenan and his Cheshire channel 22.1 are concerned, I have good news and better news. The good news is, according to Antennaweb, channel 23 DTV/22.1 doesn't exist. Even when I punched in Cotati's, California's zip code.


The better news is, the FCC says it does exist but is only transmitting at 67 KW, so there is no way that it is overloading his preamplifier or tuner and should be of no concern to him.


Twenty miles isn't close when a transmitter is 40 degrees off target and transmitting at 67 KW. You should only be thinking about mitigating channels 47 and 68, regardless of what your signal meter scale says. You don't know how strong 68 is because it is analog, and your signal strength indicator saying that 47 is "weaker" than 22.1 is not measuring actual strength, such that it might adversely affect a preamplifier or tuner.


The people here who have installed tilters have enjoyed playing with them, but I don't think anyone vouches for them.


What aren't you getting reliably from San Francisco?


----------



## holl_ands

Back to the drawing board guys....there are over FIVE nearby UHF transmitters with significant levels...


By checking ALL four boxes on the right side of the fol site, you can find ALL of the local transmitters:
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp 

Suggest you limit the search radius to about 30 miles, otherwise it times out.


There are two analog UHF transmitters listed only a few miles away (repeater and a so-called "low power"):

UHF CH25: K30DO (aka K25HI), 25.8 deg, 4.7 miles, 17 kW ERP, 17 kW Max, 547 m AMSL.

UHF CH36: KTVJ-LP (Fiori Media), 25.8 deg, 4.7 miles, 21.3 kW ERP, 50 kW Max, 547 m AMSL.


Note that there is an antenna tilt mod for KTVJ-LP listed, reducing ERP (towards horizon) to 21.3 kW,

but the maximum power in all H and V directions is still 50 kW....no doubt directed downwards towards Keenan.


Note KRCB-DT (and KRCB-TV) filed Construction Permits to relocate with different antenna patterns and beam tilt:

UHF CH23, KRCB-DT (Rural), 135/136 deg, 9.5/9.6 miles, 4.7+ kW ERP, 110 kW Max, 800m AMSL.


The downward antenna tilt situation also applies for fol. nearby station:

UHF CH28: KDTV-CA (Sta Rosa), 17.5 deg, 15.1 miles, 8.2 kW ERP, 109 kW Max, 1219 m AMSL.


If you really want to know how high the receive signal levels are, I suggest you look at the below spread sheet.

Note that I did not calculate the "Add'l Loss" for those towers that are not Line-Of-Sight,

nor the XG-91 antenna pattern as you point towards different stations.

So there is still work for the interested student....

 

SF DTV_Overload_Calc_RevB.zip 10.2138671875k . file


----------



## AntAltMike

Given that Keenan already has a tall mast, has already tried one of the best 8 bay bowties and one of the best "yagi(s) with corner reflectors", has a nice, high gain, high powered preamp with little liklihood of amplifier or receiver overload, yet he is generally dissatisfied, across the board, with his distant, San Francisco reception, which, he believes, does not enjoy line-of site predictability, there just isn't any reliable way to improve his reception. He might be better off "borrowing" different receivers and seeing which one seems to most reliably lock onto the signals that he now has.


He can cheaply rule out preamp overload with the trial insertion of 22/47/68 Jointennas. I think I pay $24 each for them. I don't know what retail is, but they will definitively settle the issue of whether he is suffereing from preamp overload fairly cheaply.


He can also buy an analog FSM on eBay for twenty bucks to take out the guesswork regarding the signal strength of undesired signals.


----------



## holl_ands

The hi-gain CM-7777 is definitely OVERLOADED, and the antenna sidelobes aren't enough to cure the problem,

esp given that signals will also bounce back off nearby hills.


Recommend using a lower gain Preamp, such as the Winegard HDP-269 which has 3 dB Noise Figure,

12 dB Gain (just enough to overcome the coax downlead and HDTV Noise Figure)

and has 11.5 dB HIGHER overload specs that the already excellent W-G AP-4700 (or equal) Preamps.


=======================================================

I did quick Line-Of-Sight check using Google-Earth.

All the nearby stations, except perhaps KTLN are LOS to Keenan's location.

I would guess a moderate amount of "Add'l Loss" due to diffraction from KTLN (under 10 dB?) and Sutro Towers (under 20 dB?).

But if you really want to know, I suggest RADIO MOBILE (for Windows) or SPLAT! (for Linux):
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1126050076 


Using the exact lat/long from FCC database, you can actually see the towers

or in some cases the ground preparation work since some of the photos are fairly old.

Google-Earth can be off by several minutes from the posted lat/long due to coordinate "datum" differences (FCC's NAD 27 vs WGS84):
http://www.keyhole.com/GoogleEarthHelp/GoogleEarth.htm 

[So Keenan is probably not living in a tree house.]


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ....there are over FIVE nearby UHF transmitters with significant levels...
> 
> 
> By checking ALL four boxes on the right side of the fol site, you can find ALL of the local transmitters:
> http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp
> 
> There are two analog UHF transmitters listed only a few miles away (repeater and a so-called "low power"):
> 
> UHF CH25: K30DO (aka K25HI), 25.8 deg, 4.7 miles, 17 kW ERP, 17 kW Max, 547 m AMSL.
> 
> UHF CH36: KTVJ-LP (Fiori Media), 25.8 deg, 4.7 miles, 21.3 kW ERP, 50 kW Max, 547 m AMSL.
> 
> ...





> Quote:
> The hi-gain CM-7777 is definitely OVERLOADED, and the antenna sidelobes aren't enough to cure the problem,
> 
> esp given that signals will also bounce back off nearby hills.



Which transmitter(s) are you saying are overloading it?


I wasn't able to use the linked transmitter locator because I don't have Keenan's map coordinates, but I Googled the Santa Rosa, California zip code and determined, via Antenna web, that the Sutro Tower is at a bearing of 145 degrees and the channel 22/23 transmitter is at 108 degrees. The channel 22(23) tower is therefore 37 degrees off targetline. The reception antenna gain of 22/23 will be down by somewhere between 10 and 20dB, most likely, 15dB down or more.


The two local, low-power transmitters that holl_ands has indentifed, at around 25 degrees, are about 120 degrees off-targetline to the rear, meaning the gain of them is down over 20 dB using either the 4228 or the screen-reflected Yagi.


The 7777 has a maximum output of 51dBmV for a two channel load, 47 for four channels and 42 for eight channels. But that refers to equal strength channels. This antenna receives the equivalent of a two or three channel load, maximum. Does anyone remember what a "block tilt" was and is? Blonder Tongue and others used to advise that you could increase your VHF highband channels by 2dB if you also lowered all your low band channels by 4dB. But you only got to do that once. If you instead eliminated the VHF lowband channels all together, you would only raise the highband maximum output by 3dB. But if you then eliminated half the VHF upper channels (not that doing so would ever be beneficial), the maximum output went up by another 3dB


The San Francisco signals are insignificant to the loading estimate. Therefore, this preamp doesn't even begin to excessively intermodulate until the one "pig" carrier output goes somewhere over 50dBmV, which means that its input is over 24dBmV. And even then, that is the level at which an analog picture might begin to show imperfections that initially can only be seen by those who know a TASO Grade 1 picture. The overloading input would have to be several dB higher than that to start breaking up the digital signals.


A low power transmitter five miles away hitting the rear oblique of a screen-reflected antenna will not develop 20dBmv. The only potential threat is the channel 68 that is on line but twenty miles away, and even then, it is not really powerful for that high a frequency, having an output of only 1,000KW.


----------



## Keenan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Which transmitter(s) are you saying are overloading it?
> 
> 
> I can't use the linked transmitter locator because I don't have Keenan's map coordinates.



Lat 38.4473457

Lon 122.6992493


BTW, all this attention is making me feel like a very important person so I'll say again, I do appreciate all the input, very much. I look at this as a challenge to try and get the best that is possible.


I'll need to read the last several posts later as I'm off to dinner, but if any additional info from my end is needed, please ask.


Thanks


P.S. If you all feel my particular situation would be better served in another thread and not pollute the focus of this one, please say so.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland

Quote:

Originally Posted by *keenan*
BTW, all this attention is making me feel like a very important person so I'll say again, I do appreciate all the input, very much.
Nah, just a bunch of bored guys







.


Attached is the Digital & Analog stations out to 70 miles Added: for keenan.

.

 

Broadcast Television Station.pdf 417.228515625k . file


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Back to the drawing board guys....there are over FIVE nearby UHF transmitters with significant levels...
> 
> ...
> 
> If you really want to know how high the receive signal levels are, I suggest you look at the below spread sheet.
> 
> Note that I did not calculate the "Add'l Loss" for those towers that are not Line-Of-Sight,
> 
> nor the XG-91 antenna pattern as you point towards different stations.
> 
> So there is still work for the interested student....



The transmit and receive beampatterns and diffraction losses are important for the low power stations. KTVJ is transmitting in a different direction and all the low power stations are in a completely different receive direction from San Fran so the receive beampattern will be low towards them. The low power stations are also not mounted on high towers so diffraction losses could be significant. All together I don't think the low power stations are a likely overload problem. That leaves KRCB and KTLN as the main overload possibilities. Strong reflected paths from very different angles than the direct path are possible but unlikely so direct path directions are the main threat. The current configuration probably doesn't have severe overload because his performance now for the distance is pretty good- but a slight overload is a possibility. If overload does exist then I would expect any one of the following remedies would likely eliminate it: A horizontal stack with a null towards KRCB plus a Join-Tenna for KTLN if needed, channel 23 and/or channel 68 Join-Tenna's with the unneeded input's terminated, replacing the CM 7777 with a WG 8700 or 4700 or 2870. Note that the horizontal stacking distance is not super critical to eliminate KRCB (ex. 24 inches instead of 22.5 inches should be OK but my original math needs to be checked), just steer to place the null for minimum interference and the main-lobe should be close enough to San Fran. The horizontal stack has the advantage of additional gain as long as a low loss coupler is used. The Winegard pre-amps have the disadvantage of slightly poorer performance than the 7777 in the absence of overload and the Join-Tenna is not well shielded and will add some loss for channels near the "null". One thing that could be tried with the WG pre-amp and Join-Tenna's is to put the Join-Tenna's in the house between the Pre-amp output and a low noise low gain distribution amp. That may help overcome lead-in losses which is especially useful if the receiver has a poor noise figure. I agree though with AntAltMike that once overloading is ruled out there is probably no reasonable way to get a big improvement from the current performance. (edited to add KTLN as an interference possibility)


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Will Collier* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My house still has an ancient (1970's) era TV antenna attached to the chimmney; I still use it for SD PIP occasionally. It picks up the stronger VHF (analog) channels pretty clearly, and several of the UHF channels with varying amounts of fuzz and/or static. It doesn't have a rotation motor, but according to the HD maps, I need a "Red" antenna for all the stations in my metro area (Atlanta), which are fortunately clustered in a fairly small wedge southeast of my house.
> 
> 
> N00b time: any chance this old clunker would work with an HD tuner, perhaps along with an added preamp? Sure would be nice, particularly from a cost/hassle perspective...



It might work OK especially if you replace the lead-in cable with a new balen and good RG-6 coax. I would recomend the Winegard 4700 if you want to try a pre-amp because it has a low noise figure and overload will be less of a worry for it than for a higher gain pre-amp.


----------



## amirm

I bought a house that has a mast with two stacked Yagi antennas (with no reflectors) designed to pick up a signle VHF channel (9). One antenna is 4-5 feet above the other.


I have no use for the above antenna and instead mounted a CM 4228 between them to pick up the digital UHF channels. Since the gap between the two Yagis was more than the hight of CM 4228, I now have one about a foot higher than the CM 4228 and the other a few inches below. Would either one of these elements (which are not hooked up to anything) have any effect on the performance of the CM 4228? My RF knowledge is failing me here







.


Thanks,

Amir


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I now have one about a foot higher than the CM 4228 and the other a few inches below. Would either one of these elements (which are not hooked up to anything) have any effect on the performance of the CM 4228? My RF knowledge is failing me here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Yes, and probably negative.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keenan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> P.S. If you all feel my particular situation would be better served in another thread and not pollute the focus of this one, please say so.



Good Idea. I *deleted* all my post in this thread that did not contain "DIY Info, How 2's or Links"


OK kennan, from the top, you have:


Lat 38.45 North

Lon 122.70 West or -122.70


91XG Antenna at 70 ft.

Antenna Rotor

Channel Master 7775 Pre-Amp

Dish DVR-942


Problem? Objective?


I just saw your antenna mounting. If you have very much antenna movement with wind there will be a high probability of picture problems on the DTV stations.


----------



## Keenan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wendell R. Breland* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Good Idea. I *deleted* all my post in this thread that did not contain "DIY Info, How 2's or Links"
> 
> 
> OK kennan, from the top, you have:
> 
> 
> Lat 38.45 North
> 
> Lon 122.70 West or -122.70
> 
> 
> 91XG Antenna at 70 ft.
> 
> Antenna Rotor
> 
> Channel Master 7775 Pre-Amp
> 
> Dish DVR-942
> 
> 
> Problem? Objective?
> 
> 
> I just saw your antenna mounting. If you have very much antenna movement with wind there will be a high probability of picture problems on the DTV stations.



Also have an ATSC tuner in my Mits WS73615 and one in a DirecTv HD-TiVo unit although the Dish unit seems to be the best of the bunch.


Yes, the tree mount is not ideal but I don't really have any alternative as I'm surrounded by them and a metal tower would probably prove to be to much effort and expense.


Essentially my goal here is to maximize reception of digital channel 45.1 KBHK from Sutro Tower-SF as it's the only channel I desire that is not provided any other way(sat-cable), and secondarily, I enjoy trying to get OTA signals, not really a hobby, but it's fun and interesting to try.


The signal I get now is around 60-70% on the Dish meter. Usually at the lower end of that range and there are complete drop-outs as well at times. If I could improve that signal say another 5-10% I would have a solid reliable signal. The complete dropouts are a nuisance but I doubt there is much I can do about that as I'm guessing the cause of those are out of my control.


----------



## holl_ands

DETAILED OVERLOAD CALCULATIONS FOR KEENAN'S LOCATION:


The below spread sheet shows that the CM-7777 will be overloaded if antenna is

pointed to any of the local stations. The HDTV Tuner may also be overloaded.


When pointed towards Sutro Towers with one of the sidelobe notches pointed towards

A-KRCB and KRCB-DT (9.5 miles away), the CM-7777 will be overloaded by KRCB-DT.

Also overloaded by A-KTLN and KTLN-DT, that are directly on the line to Sutro Towers.

The HDTV Tuner may also be overloaded, but can be avoided by inserting attenuation

on the Tuner input (e.g. RF Splitters or R-S Variable RF Attenuator).


Note that the sidelobe notch is much deeper for A-KRCB on CH51 (I assumed 20 dB)

than it is for KRCB-DT on CH23 (I assumed 10 dB).

Since I have not seen antenna pattern measurements or NEC simulations for the

XG-91 type antenna, I assumed that it was similiar to the high-gain CM-4228 antenna,

using NEC Sim results found in www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html .


When the specs for the new Winegard HDP-269 were entered, all of the Preamp

overload problems were not only cured, but the input signal was 15-20 dB below

the specified overload point, which maximizes the Spurious Free Dynamic Range

so that intermods are pushed down towards the noise floor. This facilitates

reception of the weakest signals from remote locations.


With only 12 dB of gain in the HDT-269, the input level to the HDTV Tuner was still

uncomfortably close to what I have seen specified for maximum input levels.

This can be avoided by inserting a small amount of attenuation prior to the Tuner,

e.g. RF Splitter(s) and/or a R-S Variable RF Attenuator.


I didn't take the time to tailor RADIO MOBILE for the S.F. area, so some of the path loss

numbers are "best guesses" based on performing similiar runs in LA and San Diego area.

So there is still a useful exercise left for the interested student....


Let me know if you find any errors in the spread sheets....no really...


ERRATA:

================================================

1. Found a small error in the Off-Beam Rcv Ant Gain when pointed towards

Sutro Tower and using W-G HDP-269 Preamp.

Now it's the same as for CM-7777, which was correct to begin with.


===============================================

2. deconvolver found an error: A-KRCB should be CH22 (vice my KUSI on CH51).

This also changes the Antenna Gain and Off-Beam notch depth, resulting in

a stronger overload contribution. A-KRCB is the second strongest overload source

and KRCB-DT is still the strongest overload signal when pointed toward Sutro Towers.


3. The KTLN-DT and A-KTLN broadcast antenna gain corrections (voltage not power) were incorrect.

This results in reduction in the overload contribution from these stations by several dB,

but they remain lurking just below the CM-7777 spec overload level.


4. In double checking, I found that KDTV-DT should be A-KDTV, which deletes

the 8 dB Average to Peak Power conversion.

This wasn't the principal problem before and is even less so now.


==============================================

I also added calculations for the W-G AP-4700 (or equal) Preamp:

RevC spread sheet has been replaced by RevD:

 

SF DTV_Overload_Calc_RevD.zip 12.677734375k . file


----------



## quarque

anyone care to comment on this statement from our local OTA forum:


"...a Multidirectional antenna might give you problems, like the DB4, but the 4221 is really more one direction, but with a wide reception angle, and far more gain."


Aren't these two identical in design and performance?


----------



## amirm

I know DB-8 and 4228 work differently because in one case the screens are connected together and in the other not. I have not looked at DB-4 but the same might be true there.


Amir


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *quarque* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> anyone care to comment on this statement from our local OTA forum:
> 
> 
> "...a Multidirectional antenna might give you problems, like the DB4, but the 4221 is really more one direction, but with a wide reception angle, and far more gain."
> 
> 
> Aren't these two identical in design and performance?



They are very similar really and should give similar results with the main difference being the DB4 costs more. The DB4 is certainly not a multidirectional antenna.


I would agree with "..a multidirectional antenna might give you problems", though.


The screening difference between the DB8 and the 4228 mainly effects the high band vhf performance, improving it on the 4228 over the DB8.


----------



## AntAltMike

I keep getting "Internet Explorer Can't Open...", and, "... Cant Find..." messages when I try to open the spread sheet.


I can't find any overload specs for the HDT-269. What are they?


Winegard's specs chart for their other amplifiers doesn't specify the channel loading. It seems to me that the channel loading figure used to be on that chart. Does anyone know what it is?


Holl_ands analysis assumes that Keenan's antenna performed like a 4228, which is an 8-bay bowtie, but it looks more like a 4248, which is even less favorable for his situation, since the off axis rejection of a corner reflector Yagi is not as great as the 8-bay bowtie.


I had assumed that the channel 22 transmitter was 15 miles away, the channel 68 was 22 miles away, and that the angle between them was about 40 degrees. But from the map coordinates, channel 22 is just 9.5 miles away, and the angle between the desired and undesired transmissions is just 30 degrees.


Let's assume that his antenna has a net gain over isotropic of 12dB at channel 22 and 16dB at channel 68. In order to violate the input threshold in a two channel analysis, either both of those channels would have to develop 25dBmV coming off the antenna, or perhaps one could be 27dBmV with the other about 21dBmV


Roughly figuring, channel 22 is 10 miles away and 30 to 40 degrees off axis, and has a transmitter power of, I believe, 65Kw. If the 30-40 degree off-axis antenna gain "discount" at channel 22 is 10-15dB, rather than 15-20dB as I had speculated in my estimate, then the antenna is going to net somewhere in the range of -3dB to +2dB relative to isotropic. Will a 65Kw signal develop twenty-something dBmV of signal power at that distance with effectively negative antenna gain?


Now, Telemundo channel 68 analog, 47 digital is another matter. 16dB of antenna gain on channel 68, 21 miles of dissipation and 1,100Kw analog. That's the one I expressed concern about in my earlier posts. That's the one that is getting Keenan's system in trouble.


Channel Vision or Channel Plus has a lowpass filter that rolls off somewhere around 750Mz, with an insertion loss of no more than 1dB. That should scrape off channel 68 nicely.


The Telemundo channel 47 digital is transmitting at 220Kw at present, but it will get increased to 1000Kw. Assuming that Keenan doesn't habla espanole, the WT-2700 should neatly mitigate that one without touching his precious 45 UPN from San Francisco.


What is Holl_ands using for receiver minimum and maximum input levels? I'm going to be working on top of a nice tall building, just three or four miles from some DTV towers this weekend (Ritz Carleton, corner of 23rd and M St, NW, 20037, if anyone wants to develop a spreadsheet that I can take with me). I'm going to have an early Samsung tuner and one of those receivers that Radio Shack just closed out on (Accurian?) and will feed some strong and weak filtered signals into them to see how far I can exceed the input thresholds on both the low and high ends.


(note: edited to incorporate distances and angles from the FCC page linked in deconolver's post #101)


----------



## atye




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The Winegard is lighter, and has a slightly different performance curve, but in real-world use, the difference between the two is probably minimal. Either should work well for you, and if they don't, switching to the other wouldn't make a difference.



Is it likely that the 91XG from Antennas Direct would offer better performance than a bowtie type?


----------



## holl_ands

I just got the same error clicking on above zip file. Always worked in the past....

Sometimes I get a "Cannot find file" error when clicking on pdf files.

In both cases, I can Right Click and use "Save target as...." selection to save file.


=======================================================

I couldn't find HDP-269 on Winegard Website, but is for sale from usual sources:
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/hdp269.htm 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...PROD=ANWHDP269 
http://www.summitsource.com/product_...oducts_id=5577 
http://www.summittvantenna.com/category66.html 


========================================================

If you look at hdtvprimer.com NEC plots, you'll see that the +/- 30 deg side-lobe depths aren't

all that much different for all of the listed high gain antennas: CM4228, CM4248, DAT-75.

What will change a little bit is the exact angle of the notch for mid to high frequencies,

with narrower beamwidth antennas having a corresponding smaller angle to the notch.

For all of the listed antennas, the notch was very shallow for the low frequencies.

Since I haven't seen anything published on the XG-91 type antennas from over half

a dozen different vendors, we're left with doing the best we can with what we have.

The angle of the sidelobe notches for the XG-91 type antenna is probably a few degrees

less than the CM4228, due to the slightly higher gain and hence narrower beamwidth.


For Keenan, small changes in direction are needed in order to "aim" the notch

towards A-KRCB and KRCB-DT. You might try both the Analog and Digital

station to see which one demonstrates the "worst" signal indicator.

The antenna beamwidth towards Sutro Towers is specified to be 36 degrees for low frequencies

and 22 degree for the high frequencies, so there is a moderate amount of wiggle room.


I used 20-26 dB F/B specs found on the Dipol website for their ATX-91 antenna.

Note their Gain is in dBi (subtract 2.15 for dBd):
http://www.dipol.com.pl/esklep/a3710.htm 

They also have the best picture for the generic 2.22 meter, 91 "element" antenna

that is sold worldwide under many different names from many different sources.


So do you have anything better than Dipol and Funke websites for XG-91???


I would be very wary of any F/B or sidelobe notch claims in excess of about 20 dB.

[I saw some F/B specs as high as 32 dB for the XG-91 type antenna!!!]

[Can't be average. Maybe the absolute best value for an extremely narrow rear angle???]

You might see > 20 dB in a NEC sim run or even in an idealized plot from the manufacturer,

but real world systems mounted in the vicinity of nearby objects will tend to fill in the nulls.


========================================================

I searched...and I searched....and I searched for specs on ATSC Tuner Modules.

Such as it is, the ATSC_NTSC TUNER MODULE SPECS spread sheet is posted

(along with everything else of interest on this subject) at:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1126050076 


In all of my searching for DTV Receiver performance tests, I have yet to find any

meaningful overload and intermod tests on Preamps and HDTV Receivers.


For what's it's worth, Charles Rhodes reverse engineered the intermod characteristics

for the 1st Generation Zenith Receiver, concluding that the double conversion tuner

has an Output Third Order Intermod Intercept of OIP3 = +14 dBm:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...gital_tv.shtml 

Hardly anyone makes double conversion ATSC Tuners. Only one in list is by Samsung.

If you check the available "state of the art" in my PREAMP SPECS spreadsheet,

you'll see that the OIP3 was pretty mediocre.


====================================================

Wouldn't it be great if the AV rags would conduct meaningful equipment tests on DTV equipment????

It would also be very retro if the manufacturers would actually publish meaningful specs.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> DETAILED OVERLOAD CALCULATIONS FOR KEENAN'S LOCATION:
> 
> 
> The below spread sheet shows that the CM-7777 will be overloaded if antenna is
> 
> pointed to any of the local stations. The HDTV Tuner may also be overloaded.
> 
> 
> When pointed towards Sutro Towers with one of the sidelobe notches pointed towards
> 
> A-KRCB and KRCB-DT (9.5 miles away), the CM-7777 will be overloaded by KRCB-DT.
> 
> Also overloaded by A-KTLN and KTLN-DT, that are directly on the line to Sutro Towers.
> 
> The HDTV Tuner may also be overloaded, but can be avoided by inserting attenuation
> 
> on the Tuner input (e.g. RF Splitters or R-S Variable RF Attenuator).
> 
> 
> Note that the sidelobe notch is much deeper for A-KRCB on CH51 (I assumed 20 dB)
> 
> than it is for KRCB-DT on CH23 (I assumed 10 dB).
> 
> ...
> 
> New RevC spread sheet is now available:



You show A-KRCB as channel 51 but it should be channel 22 so one notch covers both the analog and digital stations. Also the distances and angles to all Keenan's stations can be found here:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state...lon2=57&size=9


----------



## sa69

Thank you for information


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *atye* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is it likely that the 91XG from Antennas Direct would offer better performance than a bowtie type?



Different antennas work better in different situations. Outdoors, the yagis (like the 91XG) seem to have a leg up. In an attic, the bowties seem to be a little better. You also have to consider which frequencies you're after. If you need something above channel 51, the 91XG is probably the better choice. Which is better in your particular situation? Hard to tell. But if a yagi isn't working, trying a bowtie is better than trying another yagi, and vice-versa.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I can't find any overload specs for the HDT-269. What are they





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I couldn't find HDP-269 on Winegard Website, but is for sale from usual sources:
> http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/hdp269.htm
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...PROD=ANWHDP269
> http://www.summitsource.com/product_...oducts_id=5577
> http://www.summittvantenna.com/category66.html



All four of those linked sites selling the HDP-269 copied the same consumer data sheet, which says that the "Maximum total input" is 350,000 microvolts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that maximum input levels can be usefully denominated in unreferenced, cumulative microvolts. We've got to work some "squares" or "square roots" into the tallied inputs to reflect the fact that, if you halve the voltage, you reduce the power consumption by 75%.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Winegard's specs chart for their other amplifiers doesn't specify the channel loading. It seems to me that the channel loading figure used to be on that chart. Does anyone know what it is?



Winegard's channel loading standard, which HDTVPrimer has inadvertently excised from the table it copied, can be found in Winegard's own 1996 catalog #215 on page 14. They claim that their UHF preamps don't exceed 0.5% Cross Modulation with FIVE CHANNEL UHF INPUTS of 30,000 microvolts for the high gain (28dB) models and 93,000 microvolts for the low gain (19dB) models.


Hmmmm... Using Winegard's own conversion chart from page 26 of the same catalog, that means that their low noise preamps can output about 57dBmV with a FIVE CHANNEL LOAD without developing excessive cross modulation. Does anyone believe that? That's four times the maximum attainable power output per channel of a Channel Master 7775 or 7777, at two and a half times the channel load. Cripes, the Holland Electronics (no relation?) "high powered" rack-mounted UHF strip amplifiers, which I think are now discontinued, could barely develop that kind of output of a single channel.


The HDP-269's 350,000 microvolt maximum input is 51dBmV. With 11 to 12 dB gain, its amplifier output would be 62 or 63 dBmV. My trusty, workhorse Blonder Tongue BIDAs, which regrettably have noise figures of around 8 or 9dB, can develop an output level of just 46dBmV with 60 channel loads. To simply the arithmetic, I'll fudge a little and call that the 64 channel rating: 46dB at 64 channels, 49dBmV @ 32 channels, 52dBmV @ 16 channels, 55dBmV @ 8 channels, 58dBmV @ 4 channels, 61dBmV @ 2 channels, and 64 dBmV @ 1 channel. So why am I paying $400 per amplifier for behemoths with 8-9dB noise figures? In fact, if Winegard is using the same loading assumption for the HDP as it does for its AP's, I might start using them to light Christmas trees.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It would also be very retro if the manufacturers would actually publish meaningful specs.



We should all live so long. But I'm even more concerned about the relevance of the methodology we are using to arbitrarily arrive at useful parameters for estimating amplifier power sufficiency when loaded with digital signals, rather than analog ones.


----------



## atye

Thanks! Are the Yagi's more directional than the combination UHF/VHF I have now, or about the same? I have a CM 3678.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *atye* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks! Are the Yagi's more directional than the combination UHF/VHF I have now, or about the same? I have a CM 3678.



You have a Yagi right now. (Technically, it's a yagi-corner reflector hybrid, but most commercial UHF antennas are.) But the bulk of your antenna is a log-periodic setup for VHF, with the UHF section just pasted on the front.


What makes an antenna more directional is the number of elements it has (or the arrangement thereof, but that's moot for the current question.) Ignore the VHF elements for a minute - they aren't doing anything for your UHF reception. There's probably between 20-30 UHF elements on your CM3678. There's 91 on the 91XG. It is going to be far more directional when the yagi half of the hybrid is being used. (On lower channels, the corner reflector becomes the primary means of gathering the signal, and these are not, by rule, very directional.) When the corner reflector portion comes into play, the 91XG has a better corner reflector than the CM3678, but most of that is going to be gain, not directionality.


It is a fact that a UHF-only antenna will outperform a similar UHF/VHF combo antenna with similar-sized UHF sections. The UHF/VHF combo is a compromise, one that works well for many, but still a compromise.


----------



## colofan

Is there a DIY for antennas to build your own UHF antenna?


I have seen web pages for HAM stuff but I haven't located a resource for a kit or make your own.


----------



## Keenan

Wow, I'm getting _overloaded_(pun intended) with information here.


The info I have for the 91XG was from the AntennasDirect site which apparently is lacking in useful data. I recall that it was a clone of a Blake model sold in the UK? Not sure which one though.


holl_ands, with your data from above on pre-amp overloads, you first indicate that the Winegard model would be better or did you refine that to say the CM 7775 was the same as the Winegard?


AntAltMike, you mentioned that the 8-bay CM4228 would be a better choice than a Yagi style? I was under the (probably misinformed) impression that Yagis were more directional and that would be better for my situation. I have a 4228 still in the damaged box it came in, would require some straightening but I could probably install in place of the 91XG this weekend. Before I go up there though I'd like to know if a pre-amp swap-out is in the works. I also still have the CM4248 which can be used.


Too bad I can get you all here at my location, my treat! It sounds like my situation could be a challenging one that appears to intrigue or interest you. This stuff definitely interests me but I don't have the knowledge to understand a lot of it.


AntAltMike, you mentioned the RS ATSC tuner, I had one but returned it as it was problematic fitting into the scheme of my whole system. But, I am going to pick it back up as I recall it had a SNR readout meter...which I'm assuming would be of some usefulness..?


----------



## AntAltMike

All I meant was that I was visualizing the 4228's channel 22/23 sidelobe to be just a little more favorable in terms of rejecting the undesired signal from that angle, because the undesired signal would arrive at each of the 4 bay sub-stacks at a different time, but that is just one selection consideration. I can't say that the 4228 antenna is better for your situation than a 91XG, because yours has more gain, and if you "misaim" it by a few degrees, you probably can achieve the same rejection of the undesired signal.


Right now, you may understand less about your siituation than you did before you entered this thread. Originally, when you had concluded that there must be obstructions between you and Sutro because you got better performance misaiming your antenna, the real reason you got better performance was probably that you were mitigating channel 68/47 signal at the same time. Holl_ands' preference for your situation would be to go with a lower gain preamp. I'd like to get that spreadsheet of his to open before I concurred, because I still suspect that it would develop marginal signal levels of the distant transmitters, and even if a topo program says that solid planet earth is not in your way, its vegetation still might be, and you might desire some additional margin to sustain reception under wet weather conditions. My preference is to have you drop in a 750Mz low pass filter and a UT-2700 notch to weaken 47, but either would likely improve your system performance.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You show A-KRCB as channel 51 but it should be channel 22 so one notch covers both the analog and digital stations. Also the distances and angles to all Keenan's stations can be found here:
> http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state...lon2=57&size=9



See my Post #93 above for the corrected RevD spread sheet and listed errata.

I also added calculations for the W-G AP-4700 Preamp.


Calculations show that both the AP-4700 and the HDP-269 should keep the strong signals coming

from KRCB (both analog and digital) well below the spec overload point when pointed toward Sutro Tower.


The high gain CM-7777 and CM-7775 (UHF only) is shown to be unsuitable for use in a

urban/suburban environment with broadcast towers in close proximity

(but then most of us knew that to begin with).


----------



## Keenan

A couple of additional notes and questions for you all.


Solid planet earth is definitely in my path. There are a couple of 1000' plus peaks on my line of sight to Sutro.


Using the RS Accurian tuner I get the following readings from their "meter", this is with the antenna orientated for maximum signal strength for KBHK.


KBHK.......SNR-18-19dbs with signal strength at around 66-67


KCRB.......SNR-30-32dbs with signal strength at around the low 90's


KTLN........SNR-15-16dbs with signal strength at around 60


Additional Sutro Tower station,


KRON(ch 4-digital 57) constant picture breakups unwatchable ...SNR about 15-16 and signal strength about 40-60


Mt St Helena,


KFTY(ch 50-digital 54).....SNR-2-15db with signal strength of 9...this station would be behind me so I guess it indicates the antenna is doing a fair job of rejecting signals from the backside.


Whether this info is of any value, I don't know, you guys are the experts. Obviously, the best course of action is to try and see what works better, if anything. I guess I'm looking for answers on whether things like horizontal stacking and such are fundamentally sound. I'm also unsure from the discussion whether a different pre-amp is warranted, again, testing it is probably the best solution. Again, I do appreciate the input and I have learned a whole lot more than I knew before starting this journey, and for that I want to thank everyone.


Now just get me better signal strength and I go away...


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *colofan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is there a DIY for antennas to build your own UHF antenna?
> 
> 
> I have seen web pages for HAM stuff but I haven't located a resource for a kit or make your own.


 http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html 

http://www.clarc.org/Articles/uhf.htm


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keenan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A couple of additional notes and questions for you all.
> 
> 
> Solid planet earth is definitely in my path. There are a couple of 1000' plus peaks on my line of sight to Sutro.
> 
> 
> Using the RS Accurian tuner I get the following readings from their "meter", this is with the antenna orientated for maximum signal strength for KBHK.
> 
> 
> KBHK.......SNR-18-19dbs with signal strength at around 66-67
> 
> 
> KCRB.......SNR-30-32dbs with signal strength at around the low 90's
> 
> 
> KTLN........SNR-15-16dbs with signal strength at around 60
> 
> 
> Additional Sutro Tower station,
> 
> 
> KRON(ch 4-digital 57) constant picture breakups unwatchable ...SNR about 15-16 and signal strength about 40-60
> 
> 
> Mt St Helena,
> 
> 
> KFTY(ch 50-digital 54).....SNR-2-15db with signal strength of 9...this station would be behind me so I guess it indicates the antenna is doing a fair job of rejecting signals from the backside.
> 
> 
> Whether this info is of any value, I don't know, you guys are the experts. Obviously, the best course of action is to try and see what works better, if anything. I guess I'm looking for answers on whether things like horizontal stacking and such are fundamentally sound. I'm also unsure from the discussion whether a different pre-amp is warranted, again, testing it is probably the best solution. Again, I do appreciate the input and I have learned a whole lot more than I knew before starting this journey, and for that I want to thank everyone.
> 
> 
> Now just get me better signal strength and I go away...



I bought one of those RS tuners because the clearence price of $90 was too low to resist. I am not sure what the SNR number represents but it is not based on the AGC value or channel power for an analog station. The channel power does seem to affect the signal strength level. When I tune to an analog station number (after clearing all channels by doing an auto re-scan with the antenna unconnected) The SNR number is usually an erratic 17 dB regardless of how strong the station is but the bar graph and signal strength readout is a consistant 49% for strong stations. Both those values seem to have more meaning when tuned to a digital station but I don't think you can read RF signal strength using them.

My recomendation for reducing channel overload would be to try a WG-4700 or 8700 pre-amp plus a filter for channel 68 if necessary. If KRCB is a problem even with the WG pre-amp the best solution to eliminate it would be to get another XG-91 and horizontally stack them to place a notch at 30 degrees off the mainlobe peak.


----------



## holl_ands

What would be your eventual goal in a DIY project? I don't think "kits" exist.


Which channels do you want (a few or entire band) and which need the most gain?

Do you want to build a really big super high gain antenna (but smaller than Aricebo)?

Or are you simply looking for a moderate gain antenna on the cheap?


Would it help if you only knew the detailed measurements for commercial antennas,

such as are used for input to NEC simulation runs?


Would you want to use an NEC simulation program to try out your design and tweak various parameters?


The HAM stuff you mention has lots of guidance on building very narrowband high gain Yagi type antennas (one or two channels)

as well as very wideband, moderate gain LPDAs (Log Periodic Dipole Array).


What's your preference?


----------



## colofan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What would be your eventual goal in a DIY project? I don't think "kits" exist.
> 
> 
> Which channels do you want (a few or entire band) and which need the most gain?
> 
> Do you want to build a really big super high gain antenna (but smaller than Aricebo)?
> 
> Or are you simply looking for a moderate gain antenna on the cheap?
> 
> 
> Would it help if you only knew the detailed measurements for commercial antennas,
> 
> such as are used for input to NEC simulation runs?
> 
> 
> Would you want to use an NEC simulation program to try out your design and tweak various parameters?
> 
> 
> The HAM stuff you mention has lots of guidance on building very narrowband high gain Yagi type antennas (one or two channels)
> 
> as well as very wideband, moderate gain LPDAs (Log Periodic Dipole Array).
> 
> 
> What's your preference?



Well actually both. I have one channel (35) I would like to build for and then see if I can improve upon the commercial grade antennas. i have built a lot of stuff both electronic and not so the above references are a good start.


When you say narrow band are you talking only a single channel with good rejection from the adjacent channels?


I saw that channel master made a parabolic dish at one time but you can't buy that unit anymore and besides it is the higher UHF band I would like to receive better. Ideas?


----------



## Keenan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If KRCB is a problem even with the WG pre-amp the best solution to eliminate it would be to get another XG-91 and horizontally stack them to place a notch at 30 degrees off the mainlobe peak.



That's the direction I'll probably take initially, a horizontal stacking and see what happens. I'm having a little trouble wrapping my head around the idea of using a lower gain pre-amp, but that is probably my lack a understanding more than anything so I'll probably get one of the WG pre-amps and try it as well.


You mentioned center to center boom width should be around 22-24"?


What's the best way to join the leads? The antennas have a balun contained in a box attached to the boom so it's a 75ohm coax feed from the antenna.


----------



## dr1394

Another DIY webpage:

http://www.mtmscientific.com/yagi.HTM 


Ron


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keenan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That's the direction I'll probably take initially, a horizontal stacking and see what happens. I'm having a little trouble wrapping my head around the idea of using a lower gain pre-amp, but that is probably my lack a understanding more than anything so I'll probably get one of the WG pre-amps and try it as well.
> 
> 
> You mentioned center to center boom width should be around 22-24"?
> 
> 
> What's the best way to join the leads? The antennas have a balun contained in a box attached to the boom so it's a 75ohm coax feed from the antenna.



Use 22.5" unless there is a problem with the antenna elements getting too close.

holl_ands had this post about the best way to combine antennas:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...da#post5768104 

Cheap way- same null but insertion loss may cancel much of the gain of using two antennas: CM model 0538 available from:
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm 

The gain of the pre-amp needs to overcome the losses in the lead-in cable and reduce the effect of the noise factor of the receiver input. The usual rule is 10dB more gain then lead-in loss is sufficient; after that additional gain won't help much and overload from too much gain can make things much worse.


----------



## Keenan

Okay so the Lindsay 2WCU1469 would be the one to use. With a cable run of 100-125' would RG11 be a better choice than RG6?


Would it be a better idea to stack a CM4228 on top of the 91XG and join them?


----------



## AntAltMike

You're picking the most expensive choice first. Why would you want to try a horizontal stack first? It will cost you several hundred dollars and will not mitigate any overload coming from 47/68 if that turns out to be the problem. You can rule that problem out much more readily and economically either with the filters that I recommend or the preamp that Holl_ands recommends.


If your stack gets you more net gain, stacking will increase the undesired signals from 47 and 68 as well. You can rule out channel 22/23 by putting a $30 Jointenna temporarily on the line. It will crush ABC 24, but it will at least tell you if mitigating 23/24 helps you. If it does, you might _then_ try forming a horizontal null which could slightly weaken 22/23 without weakening 24, but until you establish that is contributing to your reliability problem on 45 and otherwise, I think you would be wasting a lot of time and money by stacking first.


While horizontal stacking can mitigate an off-axis 22/23 Mz undesired signal component, which I doubt it your problem, there is no optimal horizontal spacing to get the two antennas to resonate favorably at all frequencies. If you want to do something really cool, rig up something motorized that will let you vary the horizontal spacing to optimize on each distant channel. That's what I'd do if I didn't have to work for a living.


----------



## AntAltMike

I used to have this math teacher named Mary Tighe. One day, she saw that I was doing nothing (that could have been any of a number of days) and said, "What are you doing?" I replied, "I'm thinking" She said. "You're not supposed to think. I do the thinking here!"


She was a useful math teacher for most of the other students but not for me.


Keenan is doing to much thinking. He keeps thinking of the most expensive and most difficult to implement solution but he doesn't yet know the problem. He needs to know for sure if he has a preamplifier problem caused by overload, which I doubt. He can definitively resolve that for under a hundred dollars with filters. If he chooses to go with the low gain amplifier, he might as well use RG-11 because, without a real signal meter, he doesn't know if his distant signals will be near the threshold or not. RG-11 will cost him maybe twenty bucks.


----------



## Keenan

LOL, you're right, because I don't understand most of the math and theory regarding antenna usage my first inclination is to throw money at it to fix a problem that I may not even have..


I'll order a JoinTenna model 0585-1 and go from there. I think this was already answered, but can I insert this in the line post pre-amp so I don't have to go up the tree, at least to see if it has an effect?


----------



## AntAltMike

No. Post- preamp notch attenuation would only "help" your receiver correctly process channel 22.1 if the receiver was previously not able to process it. You're going to have to tough this one out, but again, you are overly relying on your signal strength meter's numerical quality value of channel 22.1. According to the FCC website's transmitter power figures, it is not your strongest station. 47 and 68 are.


Actually, just moving the preamp down will reduce all of the inputs by about three dB. If you are primarily afflicted by an overload problem, you might get somewhat improved performance from doing that before any filters even arrive.


You can accomplish something by temporarily moving the preamp down, but don't move it down any further than you have to. If you make a splice insertion point even twenty feet above the ground and put the preamp there, you can then mix and match with the THREE jointennas (23, 47 and 68) to see which channel, if any is overloading your preamp.


If the problem is 68, leave in the Jointenna. If it is 47, then buy a tuned UT-2700 or even an MWT-U to weaken that without disturbing your 45. If it is 22/23, then you might FIRST try a UT-2700 tuned to the analog visual carrier of 22, because that can be notched without damaging DT-24, but if the problem is DT-23 (which you see as 22.1), there is no notching possible, so then and only then do you try to pull off a minor miracle with the horizontal phase cancellation.


I've seen receivers display 90% to 100% on lots of channels. I never even bother to measure those signal's actual signal strength with a field strength meter because they almost never are causing a problem. With some products, you can have a signal strength of 100%, increase it by a hundred fold (which would make it 10,000%, if the 100% were a measure of actual signal strength referenced to some upper limit), and still not have a problem. And I have bad news for you if you think that increasing the nominal signal quality from, say, 40% to 50% or from 50% to 60% is going to make much difference in the reliability of your problem signals if you do not have line of sight reception from the San Francisco towers...


----------



## holl_ands

Of course you want it all....don't we all.

Narrow band would not have good rejection for any of the near adjacent channels.

For that you would need an input filter.


Various versions of NEC Sim can determine how well a design will work (gain, VSWR, etc.)

You might find the hdtvprimer NEC files of interest. Start with readme and xls files.


Suggest you look in the fol. section on "Practical Antennas: VHF/UHF"
http://www.cebik.com/ 

Especially note that he presents lots of NEC simulation run results and tips.


There are several narrow band Yagi and wideband LPDA designs for the

UHF band (up to 40 elements!!!).


=======================================================

Some comments re the so-called Yagi. The original Yagi-Uda design uses

a dipole as the only fed element (and usually a folded dipole for wider

bandwidth and better impedance) .

A slightly longer simple rod is used as the reflector element and any number

of decreasing length directors may be used.

The resultant designs are fairly simple to calculate using a spread sheet.


An array of rods (W-G PR4400 and PR8800 use a Triad Reflector) or a complete

Reflector Screen may be used to supplement the reflector element

(Corner Reflector) to increase the gain and F/B ratio.

Some antennas, such as the XG-91 type, use wider bandwidth bow-tie elements.


Beyond that, modern Yagi design becomes more black magic.....

A classic Yagi-Uda would have very narrow bandwidth (only a few UHF channels),

as you'll see in the various NEC Sim runs.

In order to expand the bandwidth to cover nearly the entire UHF band, the element spacing

and lengths are moved around to "de-tune" the antenna.

With a computer, thousands of possible detunings can be analyzed.

Some have said that a monkey randomly picking alignments can do about

as well as a trained antenna engineer.


And the DAT-75 type is an entirely different animal, using three stacked Yagis

pointed towards the reflector screen.


========================================================

You might find the fol. LPDA spread sheet calculator of interest.

I punched in the max sized LPDA that the spread sheet would permit:

result was a fairly big 15 element array, with 10 dBi = 7.85 dBd gain.


An LPDA is fairly difficult to fabricate, esp one built to withstand the elements.

But once you understand the spacing rules, it shouldn't be too difficult to model and

build either a Log Periodic Toothed Array (such as the overly small Silver Sensor)

or even a simpler Zig-Zag Log Periodic Array, like the ones I described in the fol:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/2944.html 

I have an old roll of RG-58 out in the garage that would be ideal to simply string up

on a frame in the garage whenever they fire up DTV in the VHF band.


I also found the Corner Reflectors fed by a simple Dipole element to be interesting.

But these are SUPER-SIZED reflectors with a lot more gain.

I just wonder what happens when a super sized reflector is used with a big Yagi...


Unfortunately both the Yagi and the LPDA are fairly large, require significant rigidity

to survive outdoors and need to be truly monsterous to out perform the CM-4228.


=======================================================

The CM2251 parabolic may not be available, but Wade/Taco and Lindsay in Canada still are:
http://www.wade-antenna.com/upa.htm 
http://www.lindsayelec.com/antenna/c...6-pbu-uhf.html 


Note that the Lindsay has a short LPDA pointed towards the reflector.

Hard to see, looks like maybe a 4-element LPDA (too keep it close to the focus point).

I can't make out what the Wade/Taco uses as a feed antenna.

If you blow up the below jpg, you'll see the CM4251 7-foot Parabolic is fed by a

2-Bay Bow-Tie with Reflector Screen. A Balun module attaches to the screen.


You could do a DIY project, either constructing your own reflector or an old "BUD"

(Big Ugly Dish for C-Band SAT).

A 3-D parabolic would be best, but a 2-D parabolic is also possible by simply folding over some wire mesh.

Or use a Super-Sized 2-D or 3-D Corner Reflector.


Once you have a reflector, you'll need some sort of small UHF antenna to feed it.

You might want to try a 2-Bay Reflector (like the DB-2) or a 2 or 3-element YAGI or a Silver Shadow LPDA.

Or one of the short broadband zig-zag structures like the radio telescope feeds shown in the zig-zag link above.


Let us know what looks good in NEC and of course, what works.
 

 

UHF LOGPERIOD.zip 10.298828125k . file


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You're picking the most expensive choice first. Why would you want to try a horizontal stack first? It will cost you several hundred dollars and will not mitigate any overload coming from 47/68 if that turns out to be the problem. You can rule that problem out much more readily and economically either with the filters that I recommend or the preamp that Holl_ands recommends.
> 
> 
> If your stack gets you more net gain, stacking will increase the undesired signals from 47 and 68 as well. You can rule out channel 22/23 by putting a $30 Jointenna temporarily on the line. It will crush ABC 24, but it will at least tell you if mitigating 23/24 helps you. If it does, you might _then_ try forming a horizontal null which could slightly weaken 22/23 without weakening 24, but until you establish that is contributing to your reliability problem on 45 and otherwise, I think you would be wasting a lot of time and money by stacking first.
> 
> 
> While horizontal stacking can mitigate an off-axis 22/23 Mz undesired signal component, which I doubt it your problem, there is no optimal horizontal spacing to get the two antennas to resonate favorably at all frequencies. If you want to do something really cool, rig up something motorized that will let you vary the horizontal spacing to optimize on each distant channel. That's what I'd do if I didn't have to work for a living.



While the horizontal stack with a low insertion loss combiner is an expensive solution it will improve on-axis performance across the UHF band. You would only need to change the spacing if you needed to move the null. I have modelled a stack of two CM4248s at 22.7 inches. I have enclosed a comparison horizontal beampattern with a single 4248 plotted at 526 megahertz. I agree that Keenan should first try something simple to see if overloading is his problem. I would suggest he just try switching to a WG-4700 or 8700 pre-amp which is much more overload resistant than a CM 7777. I doubt he would overload his receiver with that pre-amp given a long RG-6 lead-in from a tall tree. That seems to me even simpler than messing with filters.


----------



## holl_ands

I finally had some time to do a couple quick RADIO MOBILE propagation prediction runs for Keenan location.

My goal is to encourage others to use this FREE and relatively easy to use program, along

with some handy-dandy spread sheets to help understand what is possible with OTA DTV reception.

I'm still collecting data on how much Fade Margin various situations "need".


=====================================================

It confirms that KRCB-DT and A-KRCB are operating uncomfortably close to the spec

overload point for the CM-7777, but depending on how much +/- 28 degree sidelobe

notch depth is truly available against CH22/CH23.

Unfortunately, most antennas don't develop a strong sidelobe notches at the lower frequencies.

[Fortunately, the W-G UT2700 tunable notch can be used, one notch for each channel.]

The high gain of the CM-7777 also may be causing intermods in the HDTV Tuner.

Assuming a 10 dB sidelobe notch, the input to the HDTV would be close to -6 dBm (43 dBmV),

which would generate low level intermod noise products preventing reception of weak stations.


The higher gain W-G AP-4700 (or equal) Preamp is a slightly better choice than the HDP-269,

providing a slightly higher Fade Margin for the desired KBHK-DT from Sutro Towers,

and has a spec overload point that is much higher than the maximum input signal

so that the SFDR (Spurious Free Dynamic Range) can be maximized.


There is a delicate balance between using a higher gain Preamp to overcome the

coax downlead and HDTV Noise Figure Losses vs providing ample "head room" below the spec overload point.

The HDTV Tuner is also likely to be overloaded, so a Variable RF Attenuator should

be inserted prior to the HDTV and tweaked for "best" reception.


==========================================================

For KBHK-DT, RADIO MOBILE shows two hills in the way, the first where the KTLN tower is located

and second on the side of the hill S. of Santa Rosa.

The two knife edge diffraction path causes 52 dB loss over and above the Line-Of-Sight path (that's a lot!!!)

The received signal level was calculated to be about -77.1 dBm (or -28.4 dBmV) for the XG-91 feeding a Preamp.

RADIO MOBILE calculated a Fade Margin of 15.5 dB, but there are a bunch of parameters

not included in the results, resulting in a very minimal 8 dB after making adjustments.


I use one and only one parameter calculated by RADIO MOBILE: Total "Path Loss".

It is calculated using the unit locations, the terrain database, the transmitted frequency

and not much else. The "Path Loss" is independent of any assumption re TX ERP, TX/RX

Antenna Gain and various other parameters that can be entered into the program.

Path Loss is then plugged into the DTV FADE MARGIN CALC spread sheet, which incorporates

all of the site specific parameters (as best as I understand them, so tweak away).


KTLN (CH47 and 68) signals originate on the back side of a directional tower antenna

and then diffract off the side of the "hill" South of Santa Rosa, resulting in a Diffraction Loss

of about 40 dB in excess of Line-Of-Sight.

The receive signal levels were calculated to be within a few dB of KBHK-DT,

which isn't strong enough to be interfering with KBHK-DT reception.

Hence the CH47 Join-Tenna isn't attacking the real problem (CH22/CH23).


More antenna gain could help, such as Horizontal Stacking, but only yields 2-3 dB gain.

Of more importance would be the "space diversity" effect of having different parts of

the antenna

separated so that a multipath null in one part of the array doesn't affect a different part of the array.

This is the primary reason the CM-4228 has been shown to be such a high performer.


A Horizontal Array also can develop a very deep notch that can be directed towards CH22/CH23,

but if the Preamp is chosen to operate in the linear region to begin with,

this may not be needed.


See attachment for path profile and calculation files.


Please let me know if you find any problems, there are a lot of meticulous details.

No, I'm not volunteering to do entire SF area. I've already done LA and San Diego.

 

Kbhk_map.zip 498.216796875k . file

 

Santa Rosa DTV Fade Margin Calc RevA.zip 23.30859375k . file


----------



## AntAltMike

Unfortunately, I can't get Holl_ands's two most recent links to open either, and when I try the "right click" workaround that works for him, it gets me a different, insurmountable, "no can do" message.


Has a link been furnished to this free, Radio Mobile program? And why is it free? 100,000 Watts is no longer free, and the free, NIA calculator is gone, too.


Since Keenan's nearby hill takes the possibility of overload by 47/68 out of the picture, he is basically left with two problems: too much local 22/23 signal, and insufficient or qualitatively inadequate, distant 45, 24, etc.


I'd be interested in seeing some of the assumptions Holl_ands is using. Is 23 up to its licensed power level or still running at its temporary authority? For the thermal noise floor, I have always assumed that since the figure I used for analog estimates was between -59 and -60dBmV, and since I thought that was based on the entire 6Mz bandwidth, and since the DTV tuner industry would like us to use dBm instead, I have been assuming that the noise floor is about -108dBm. Is that about what the industry is using for a reference level?


It has been posted elsewhere that there is some kind of mandated or engineered need for a 15.6 or 15.9 dB S/N ratio to be seen at the "tuner". Two thoughts: first, must one add the tuner's noise figure to that, meaning that the minimum input level would be about -82 to -83dBm if the tuner had about a ten dB noise figure?


Second: are the tuners engineered to process signals at anemic input levels? Consider DBS I.F. signal processing parameters. The DBS I.F. frequencies are just above UHF (950Mz to 1,450Mz) frequencies. Since the bandwidth is about 30Mz, then the measured noise floor would be about five times greater than a 6Mz noise floor, or -103 dBm.


Supposedly, the DBS, QPSK signals can be processed if their S/N ratio is as low as 8dB. But the DBS tuner manufacturers say that their tuners need a minimum input of -60dBm, and when Sonora Design bench tested a bunch of early Sony receivers, it saw that performance started to deteriorate when the input signals dropped below -66dBm. Yet, assuming a -103dBm noise floor and tuner noise of 10dB, the tuner noise should have been inconsequential. But when you take a DBS signal that has dropped to, say, -75dBm to -80dBm and boost it with a "dime store" inline 20dB amp, the signal gets recovered to a processable level. That has led me to conclude that determining tuner input sufficiency requires more than maintaining the minimal S/N ratio.


I've only seen one published figure for minimum input level by one manufacturer, and it was either -80dMb or -85dBm (I'm getting senile, too!). If anyone here has seen any published threshold input specs, I'd like to see them. In fact, published, manufacturer's info for DTV tuners is so sparse that it might be worth creating a sticky post where we could store it, if there is even enough info available to warrant such a post (I think Drake and PDI are the only two manufacturers in whose literature I have ever seen processor noise figures: 9dB and 10dB).


Preserving "headroom" is going to become a much more important consideration in establishing the integrity of off-air amplification systems than it ever was with with cable or even broadcast analog for a number of reasons.


With cable TV, all signals are at the same level, so any "wideband" noise affects all channels similarly, whereas in an off-air system, noise and intermodulation products that would have no effect on equal strength signals would decimate the weaker ones. Thus, the notion of arbitrary levels at which amplifiers "overload" will be much less useful than it was previously.


The byproducts themselves will be wider, since before, all we cared about was the simple interactions between two or three visual carriers, and whether they fell on or very near to another visual carrier, but now, we have these 6Mz wide signals interacting, and they may adversely affect the weak, desired DTV signal regardless of where, within the channel band, they land on it.


Given that the broadcast bandwidth has been reduced from 68 channels to 50, and in most markets, it has been effectively reduced to 45 since very few VHF lowband stations will be reverting to lowband, we are going to be dealing with a lot more adjacent channel problems.


I surmise that Keenan may have ABC DTV available through other means, like cable TV or satellite, so that 24-D from San Francisco is not essential, but other people will not be so lucky. Most of my customers are in Washington, DC and are within a few miles of ABC-D on 39 and WB-D on 51. Baltimore is presently using 38 for CBS-D, and 40 for WB-D and 52 for ABC-D. Most of my customers are within five miles of the Washington towers but those towers are about thirty to thirty five miles from the Baltimore towers. Because my customers basically encircle the Washington transmitters, I can have two headends just a few miles apart where, from one building, adjacent channel digital transmitters are directly inline, with one being five miles away and the other thirty-five miles away, but, five miles to the east, from another headend, the transmitters form a ninety degree angle to one another.


FWIW, strong DTV channel 39 adversely affects weaker, lower adjacent DTV channel 38 more than it does weaker, upper, adjacent channel 40. I don't know if that is because the DTV signal has a pilot carrier that is just .9Mz above the lower band edge that makes the differential between the it and the adjacent lower channel greater or if I have just been unlucky for some other reason.


Anyway, I can usually get the weak, adjacent upper channel to be processed if the differential between it and the stronger, adjacent channel below it is less than about fifteen dB, but don't take those numbers to the bank, because they are based on an inadequate sample and imprecise observations and recollections.


Assuming 10dB off axis rejection, what does Holl_ands estimate the differential between local 23-D and distant 24-D to be? The 22 analog carrier can be squashed with a tunable notch without affecting 24, but nothing that convenient can be done to 23-D without injuring 24-D.


If someone in Keenan's locale needed 24-D, like I might if I was servicing a multiple dwelling unit there, they could point a second antenna directly at 24-D, bandpass filter it, and couple it with their main antenna coax to effectively phase cancel the undesired signals. Funny thing though. If one aimed a horizontal stack at San Francisco to take advantage of the "space diversity" effect that Holl_ands alluded to in the previous post (an underappreciated characteristic of multiple bay antennas that explains why they consistently outperform Yagis in attics), then I don't think the phase canceling would work well because the undesired signal components from the two stacks could not both be kept in phase with one another. It could be developed, but not at the top of a 70 foot mast or tower. On a flat roof, I could put one antenna on a 3' x 3' non-penetrating frame with no ballast, and slide it "side to side" until I saw the most favorable spectrum form on my analyzer, as I actually had to do once for a 550 unit condo, but again, such extreme remedies are not for the do-it-yourselfer.


The "space diversity" effect that Holl_ands alluded to in the previous post is an underappreciated characteristic of multiple bay antennas that explains why they consistently outperform Yagis in attics.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Has a link been furnished to this free, Radio Mobile program? And why is it free? 100,000 Watts is no longer free, and the free, NIA calculator is gone, too.



When I googled radiomobile this is the first link I got:
http://www.cplus.org/rmw/english1.html 

It is free for the same reason that Linux and much other quality software is free- the author chose to release it that way. It is also based on path loss work and elevation data that have already been paid for through US tax dollars. I have used radiomobile and it is a great tool for calculating path loss. The only remaining path loss question is the effect of items very close to the receive antenna like trees and buildings etc. The program can also calculate signal strength margins but they were designed for mobile radio applications and it can be easier to just use a spreadsheet to finish the calculations. Anyone that is interested will find a good deal of relevant info at the sites that holl_ands has posted.


----------



## Keenan

Here's the link for Radio Mobile,

http://www.cplus.org/rmw/english1.html 

Radio Mobile WEB Site


I see that deconvolver has already posted the link. It involves DL'ing about 5-6 files but it works, not that I know how to use it...


If you like, PM me with your email address and I can send you the unzipped files that you can't download.




holl_ands, there is some wonderful work here, thank you. There's references to many things I don't understand but your note sections gives me the gist of what I believe I need to know. I have always felt that the hill that is in close proximity to me has been the biggest impediment to quality SF reception. Just west of me about 4-6 miles there's a forum member here in Santa Rosa that has been getting most of the stations from SF and even the KNTV signal from Loma Prieta, clear down in the south bay past San Jose, with a CM4228 _in his attic!!_ Of course, he doesn't have the hill to deal with.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'd be interested in seeing some of the assumptions Holl_ands is using. Is 23 up to its licensed power level or still running at its temporary authority? For the thermal noise floor, I have always assumed that since the figure I used for analog estimates was between -59 and -60dBmV, and since I thought that was based on the entire 6Mz bandwidth, and since the DTV tuner industry would like us to use dBm instead, I have been assuming that the noise floor is about -108dBm. Is that about what the industry is using for a reference level?
> 
> 
> It has been posted elsewhere that there is some kind of mandated or engineered need for a 15.6 or 15.9 dB S/N ratio to be seen at the "tuner". Two thoughts: first, must one add the tuner's noise figure to that, meaning that the minimum input level would be about -82 to -83dBm if the tuner had about a ten dB noise figure?
> 
> 
> Second: are the tuners engineered to process signals at anemic input levels? Consider DBS I.F. signal processing parameters. The DBS I.F. frequencies are just above UHF (950Mz to 1,450Mz) frequencies. Since the bandwidth is about 30Mz, then the measured noise floor would be about five times greater than a 6Mz noise floor, or -103 dBm.



As I mentioned before, holl_ands has posted a good deal of info over at the hdtv.forsandiego.com site. You will find most of the answers to what he is doing there. Here is a link to a spreadsheet he created for calculating fade margin (I didn't look to se if he has posted a more recent version):
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...ample-3108.xls


----------



## holl_ands

I posted the Santa Rosa files on the fol thread, which includes info on RADIO MOBILE:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1126976722 


=======================================================

PS: Thanks AntAltMike for pointing out the footnote in the Winegard Catalog.

[I KNEW I had seen something somewhere on W-G overload....]


It's also in the 2002 edition. But not on the W-G or retailer websites.

Maybe because the wording is so quirky:


"Outputs stated for 7 VHF and 5 UHF channels at -46 dB cross modulation"

Where what is "stated" in their table is the "Maximum Total Input# (Microvolts)".


Since the table shows input overloads vs output, perhaps the fol is more accurate:

"Maximum input levels are for 7 VHF and 5 UHF equal strength channels,

resulting in cross modulation products 46 dB below the Output signal levels."


======================================================

So the high overload (AP-4700 or equal) Preamps have a 93,000 uV maximum UHF input.

That is 20 log (93,000) = 99.4 dBuV or 39.4 dBmV or -9.4 dBm (for 75 ohm load).

With a gain of 19 dB, the max output level would be +9.6 dBm (58.4 dBmV).

The output intermod noise floor would be -36.4 dBm (12.4 dBmV ).

To provide the ATSC minimum SNR of 15.5 dB, the weakest output signal would need to

be at least -20.9 dBm (27.9 dBmV), corresponding to an input of -39.9 dBm (8.9 dBmV).


The thermal noise floor is about -106 dBm, hence the minimum detectable ATSC signal

is (-106 +15.5 + Cascade Noise Figure). With 100 feet of RG-6, that's about -85.8 dBm

if a pesky intermod product isn't sitting on the desired channel.

So the intermod products can limit the sensitivity to only -39.9 dBm.

If we had a Preamp with a 10 dB higher overload point, the intermod products could be

expected to be reduced by perhaps as much as 30 dB, for a sensitivity of -70 dBm.


========================================================

References explaining this 3:1 intermod reduction were cited in my Post #60 on 9/9/05.

You want to operate well below the spec overload point in order to maximize

the SFDR (Spurious Free Dynamic Range).

If the maximum signal levels can be reduced by 3 dB, the intermod products are reduced

by 9 dB.

Similiarly, if a Preamp with a 10 dB higher overload point is used, the intermod products

can be expected to be reduced perhaps 30 dB for the same input signal levels.


=====================================================

The CM-7777 has a specified maximum OUTPUT level of 51 dBmV or +2.3 dBm

for 2 input channels, with cross-modulation levels 46 dB lower.

Derating is 5 dB for 4 and 8 dB for 8 (equal strength) channels.

So compare the CM-7777's 4 channel derated max input level of -23.8 dBm

to the W-G AP-4700 5 channel max input level of -9.4 dBm, where both state

a 46 dB (0.5%) cross-modulation output level.


Of course, all of this presumes that the manufacturer specs mean what they say.


==================================================

To convert between microvolts and various dB units:

dBuV = 20 log (uV)

dBmV = dBuV - 60 = 20 log (uV) - 60

dBm = dBuV - 48.75 - 60

dBm = dBmV - 48.75


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As I mentioned before, holl_ands has posted a good deal of info over at the hdtv.forsandiego.com site. You will find most of the answers to what he is doing there. Here is a link to a spreadsheet he created for calculating fade margin (I didn't look to se if he has posted a more recent version):
> http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...ample-3108.xls



Yes, I posted an updated REVC version.

The Broadcast Antenna Polar Field Plot needed to be converted from relative volts/m to a dB level.

The correction uses 20 log () vice 10 log (), cuz it's volts not power.


========================================================

AntAltMike: In the cited hdtv.forsandiego.com thread above, you'll also find spread sheets

summarizing important specs/measurements for Antennas, Baluns, Preamps, Cable and ATSC Tuners.


And I woud appreciate any additions....


----------



## atye




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You have a Yagi right now. (Technically, it's a yagi-corner reflector hybrid, but most commercial UHF antennas are.) But the bulk of your antenna is a log-periodic setup for VHF, with the UHF section just pasted on the front.
> 
> 
> What makes an antenna more directional is the number of elements it has (or the arrangement thereof, but that's moot for the current question.) Ignore the VHF elements for a minute - they aren't doing anything for your UHF reception. There's probably between 20-30 UHF elements on your CM3678. There's 91 on the 91XG. It is going to be far more directional when the yagi half of the hybrid is being used. (On lower channels, the corner reflector becomes the primary means of gathering the signal, and these are not, by rule, very directional.) When the corner reflector portion comes into play, the 91XG has a better corner reflector than the CM3678, but most of that is going to be gain, not directionality.
> 
> 
> It is a fact that a UHF-only antenna will outperform a similar UHF/VHF combo antenna with similar-sized UHF sections. The UHF/VHF combo is a compromise, one that works well for many, but still a compromise.



Thanks so much for all your input, sregener! What I need is an antenna that will have much higher gain for the Twin Cities towers, and I'd like to pick up the Eau Claire channels on the back side. (I'd like to stay away from a rotor) I need the following channels: 15-26-32-35-39-50(and someday 49). Nothing is above 50. Given all my desires, which type would you try first?

I'm actually wondering if I NEED the biggest of the big because the dB specs quoted for the 43XG and the DB4 are both significantly greater than the unit I currently have, and I usually get servicable reception for all but 26 (FOX9) and 50 (ABC5).


----------



## holl_ands

Some thoughts for the future (improvements are "just over the horizon"...so to speak...)


Performance of so-called 5th Generation ATSC Receivers has been discussed

in fol thread. Look for post dates cited below:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...24#post6085224 


8/16, 8/17/05 et. al. posts have links to lab and on-air tests conducted by CRC (Canadian Research Center)

on the Zenith/LG 5th Gen Prototype Receiver and the Linx (now Micronas) ATSC Receiver.

It actually measures the sensitivity and overload levels, the minimum required SNR and the

additional SNR required for the worst multipath test cases thus far encountered.


7/5/05 post has discussion and links re. European DVB-T Diversity Receivers,

showing how they nearly eliminate signal dropouts.

They have been available for NTSC analog TV reception in automobiles for years.

My '98 Volvo Station Wagon came with a killer Dual Diversity Antenna for FM that

runs circles around my friends earlier Nissan 300Z Diversity FM system.

Maximum Ratio Diversity Combiners are standard for many mobile microphone packs.

And it's in most any Wireless Router that has two or more antenna stubs on it.

SO WHERE ARE THE ATSC DIVERSITY RECEIVERS??????

I've seen various reports re development and field test, but still nothing you can buy.


6/30, 7/15 and 8/3/05 has discussion and my evaluation of the one and only Smart Antenna

system that can automatically maximize desired signal direction and (if they do it right)

has the potential to steer nulls towards undesired directions.

It also has automatic control of the Preamp's AGC level to avoid overload.

A worthy DIY project would be to adapt the Preamp/Combiner Module for 2 or 4 large

external antennas, cuz the DTA-5000 only provides 0-3 dB antenna gain.

It should be capable of outperforming the Lindsay antenna coupler for about the same price, plus of course a CEA/EIA-909 capable STB (e.g Sylvania 6900DTE).


========================================================

Fol. thread has a discussion re advantages of COFDM vs ATSC waveform:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST19348 

COFDM is used elsewhere in the world for DTT, in the U.S. for Cellphones and

is expected to be used for DVB-H mobile video in the U.S. and will be used to

provide a variety of services on CH52 and above when they are cleared for Home Security

and other uses. Such as Qualcomm's nation-wide CH55 MediaFLO system.


Big advantages are 1) support for SFN (Single Frequency Networks) wherein multiple transmitters carry the same signal

and 2) relatively simple to build Diversity Receivers which provide very significant protection against signal dropouts due to multipath fading.


The ATSC equivalent of SFN may cause multipath problems for all but the newest ATSC Receivers, depending of course on topography.

But if they finally get it to work, networks of repeaters could be used to fill in the terrain gaps that severely limit ATSC reception today.


I have seen several reports re Diversity Receivers for ATSC, but so far nothing is available for purchase.

With the market for stand-alone STB's being surplanted by integrated HDTVs (and expanding HD on SAT/CATV),

and the cost expected to plumet to $50-75, I have to wonder why the STB and chip manufacturers

don't provide a hi-end OTA STB that has Diversity Receivers and Smart Antenna control.


7/19/05 post in the above thread provided links to laboratory and on-air comparison tests for ATSC vs DVB-T vs ISDB-T.

Performance parameters were measured for several different (unindentified) ATSC Receivers, although they are a bit outdated now.


Bon Appetite!!!


----------



## holl_ands

re. BACKSCATTER signal path......and ATSC Diversity Receiver references.


A few dozen posts ago, I mentioned BACKSCATTER as being one way that a signal can bounce off nearby objects,

back into the beam of your antenna, even though the source of the transmissions might be on the back side of the antenna gain pattern.

For the same reason a mirror reflects the most light back towards the light source,

the worst Backscatter sources originate from the back side of the antenna pattern,

and will be scattered back towards the highest gain portion of the antenna pattern.

Depending on geometry, sidescatter can also be a problem, esp for those directions where the antenna has significant sidelobe response.


A measurement of the backscatter and sidescatter levels can be found by looking at the relative strengths

of the received multipath signals for a given DTV channel.

[Unfortunately, STBs only display this information to the Design Engineers.]


======================================================

Refs. [a] and * below give some insight on this process.

Our buddies at the Canadian Research Center, the Canadian government's technical experts on ATSC and COFDM,

conducted some signal level surveys in various locations, including the described survey around Ottawa.

The ATSC (and COFDM) waveforms transmit a known pseudorandom sequence of bits (PN-511) for 47.48 usec every 24.2 msec.

The ATSC Receiver uses this known data sequence to initialize the equalizer by minimizing

the mean square error between the received sequence and the known PN-511 sequence.

The equalizer tap settings can be observed to log the multipath strength vs delay.


And once the multipath delay is known, it can be used to find the path difference between the direct and reflected path,

using the time it takes light to travel one mile: 5.376 usec/mile.


They found that for a large number of suburban locations, the strongest multipath signals arrived within about 0.2 usec,

which is a path difference of only a couple hundred feet.

That means that your neighbors (and perhaps your interior/attic) are the strongest contributors to multipath.

(Especially your neighbor's two story house with the wire mesh stucco, Al. foil back insulation, Al. gutters, electrical wiring, etc.)


How strong? Roughly equal strength down to 10 dB below the direct path.


On the average, the multipath reflections were insignificant (20 dB below the direct path) for multipath delays

in excess of about 5 to 10 usec, which is a path differential of 1 to 2 miles.


Urban multipath delays were about twice those in surburbia.

So how much multipath should an STB accomodate?

About +/- 20 usec ought to do the job unless there is a tall skyscraper more than a few miles away from you.

So most people shouldn't expect the Zenith/LG 5th Gen chip to work miracles.

Indeed, the Linx/Micronas chip had much better performance for the 0 dB Echo test cases,

including Brazil ensembles, such as might occur for indoor and attic locations.


Of course, there were some infrequent excursions well beyond the "average".

ATSC A/74, "ATSC Recommended Practice: Receiver Performance Guidelines", 18 June 2004,

contains several dozen of these "exceptions" for test purposes.


(So why is it that this information is never collected and released from U.S firms???)


========================================================

References re ATSC Diversity Receivers:


a. "UHF Wideband Mobile Channel Measurements and Characterization using ATSC Signals with Diversity Antennas", Semmar et. al., May 2004:
http://lrts.gel.ulaval.ca/publicatio...ication_11.pdf 


b. "UHF DTV Band Channel Characterization for Mobile Reception", Semmar et. al.,

Canadian Conference on Electrical and Computer Engineering, Vol.3, pp 1339-1342, 2-5 May 2004.


c. "ATSC Digital TV Receiver using Spatial Diversity Technique", Ju-Yeun Kim, et. al.,

IEEE Vehicle Technology Conference, Sep 2004.


d. "Antenna Diversity for Improved Indoor Reception of US Digital Terrestrial Television Receivers",

Meehan, IEEE Trans on Consumer Electronics, Vol. 48, No 4, Nov 2002.


e. "Joint VSB Terrestrial Digital TV Indoor Reception Project", Wetmore, Schnelle, Meehan, et. al.,

IEEE Trans on Broadcasting, Vol 48, No. 4, Dec 2000.*


----------



## holl_ands

MORE NEC DIY INFORMATION:


When looking at Ham antenna designs, bear in mind you can easily rescale to desired frequency.

Simply divide the center design frequency for the Ham design (e.g. 51 MHz for 6 meters)

by the desired new center frequency (say 510 MHz for UHF CH20).

Then scale down all of the dimensions by 51/510 = 0.1.

All the gain and VSWR results will stay the same....until you see that the element diameters

may be unrealistic after scaling....in which case tweak the NEC input files and rerun.


Everything you ever wanted to know at the unofficial NEC Archives:
http://www.si-list.org/swindex2.html 

XLNEC.ZIP includes Excel source file utility for LPDA, Yagis with Parabolic, etc.


And WTMI for the over-achiever:
http://www.ac6v.com/antprojects.htm 

Unfortunately, very few Ham antenna projects are wideband designs, such as are needed for TV.


=========================================================

Modern optimized Yagi designs don't follow the Yagi-Uda textbook rules.

To achieve a wider bandwidth, lots of tricks are used to "de-tune" the antenna.

Here is a good example of one process:
http://ic.arc.nasa.gov/people/jlohn/Papers/ices2001.pdf 


=========================================================

The fol. includes NEC input files for VHF LPDA and UHF LPDA TV Antennas:
http://www.qsl.net/zs6bte/Antennas_for_the_TV_DXer.html 

Note that gain is in dBi (vs dBd).


----------



## holl_ands

I posted updates to spread sheets summarizing specs and sometimes measurements for

PREAMPS, BALUNS, RG-6/11 CABLE and ATSC_NTSC TUNERS_PCI_STBs.


I also posted an update to the DTV ANTENNAS spread sheet,

which compares manufacturer specs to NEC Simulation results and (for a few) actual measurements:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1126998999 


The ANTENNAS spread sheet now includes many non-U.S. antennas.

Note that outside North America, many different channel spacing and number schemes are used.

Fortunately, most specs use frequency rather than channel number:


==========================================================

I was underwhelmed by remaining Parabolic Reflector antenna gain specs, not to mention pathetic F/R ratio.

Only at the high end of the UHF band do they finally outperform the usual assortment of high gain antennas.


----------



## BarnacleBill

There seems to be agreement that the silver sensor is the best indoor HDTV antenna. I have found two different models that use the name.

This is the most common, with the arrow shape (ZHDTV1). But I also found this triangular shaped flat disk antenna with the same name (PHDTV3). Which one gets all the raves?


Also, would this help get high-band VHF channels 11-12? or would I be better off with the Terk HDTVi, which seems to be the same as the first silver sensor plus VHS? I am less than a mile from the main tower for most stations and about 4 miles in another direction for channels 11-12, which are unwatchable with rabbit ears because of hills.


Thanks for any help you can give me.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BarnacleBill* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There seems to be agreement that the silver sensor is the best indoor HDTV antenna. I have found two different models that use the name.
> 
> This is the most common, with the arrow shape (ZHDTV1). But I also found this triangular shaped flat disk antenna with the same name (PHDTV3). Which one gets all the raves?
> 
> 
> Also, would this help get high-band VHF channels 11-12? or would I be better off with the Terk HDTVi, which seems to be the same as the first silver sensor plus VHS? I am less than a mile from the main tower for most stations and about 4 miles in another direction for channels 11-12, which are unwatchable with rabbit ears because of hills.
> 
> 
> Thanks for any help you can give me.



The arrow shaped Zenith silver sensor is the antenna that is considered a good indoor UHF antenna. The Terk HDTVi just has rabbit ears for VHF so if they don't work for you now then the HDTVi probably won't work either. [EDIT: according to HDTVprimer.com the squareshooter matching network performs poorly for VHF high. Matching networks can be tricky to model but if correct the square shooter would not be a good choice for VHF. My original post was based on the raw beampattern on the Winegard site which doesn't show how well the matching network is working. Winegard lists good typical VSWR numbers for the square shooter but they are probably being misleading by only listing UHF results. So, I am removing the Square shooter recommendation.]. You will need to try different antenna locations to find the spot with the best reception. To do better than rabbit ears on VHF-high you would probably need to add a real antenna designed for outdoor use to your UHF antenna. For instance a Winegard YA-6713 (about 3 foot wide by 4 foot long) could be added to a Zenith Silver Sensor. For an amplifier with that combination you could use a Winegard HDP-269 which has a fairly high input level spec but it might still overload with you proximity to the towers. I find solidsignal.com is a good place for quickly pricing these items, they could be ordered there or from starkelectronic.com.


----------



## BarnacleBill

Deconvolver, thanks for all the very good information. After looking at some test results here I think I will try the silver sensor first, then the square shooter. The graph seems to indicate that the silver sensor does surprisingly well with VHF.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BarnacleBill* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There seems to be agreement that the silver sensor is the best indoor HDTV antenna. I have found two different models that use the name.
> 
> This is the most common, with the arrow shape (ZHDTV1). But I also found this triangular shaped flat disk antenna with the same name (PHDTV3). Which one gets all the raves?
> 
> 
> Also, would this help get high-band VHF channels 11-12? or would I be better off with the Terk HDTVi, which seems to be the same as the first silver sensor plus VHS? I am less than a mile from the main tower for most stations and about 4 miles in another direction for channels 11-12, which are unwatchable with rabbit ears because of hills.
> 
> 
> Thanks for any help you can give me.



The unamplified Silver Sensor reportedly came from UK manufacturer Antiference:
http://www.antiference.co.uk/indoor.htm 
http://www.electricshop.com/invt/4000spa111805a 

They claimed to have "launched" the Silver Sensor in 1984:
http://www.antiference.co.uk/profile.htm 


Note that Antiference also offers a similiar looking Power Sensor model which includes

an external preamp module (that plugs into 220 VAC).


=====================================================

Gemini Industries is a division of Philips:
http://www.gemini-usa.com/gemini/index.asp 

They sell the original, unamplified Silver Sensor under the Gemini, Philips, Magnavox and Zenith

brand names....all with similar model numbers.


Zenith Silver Sensor model is ZHDTV1:
http://www.gemini-usa.com/a5/modelDe...er=GemAntennas 
http://www.zenith.com/sub_prod/produ...?cat=49&id=131 


Philips Silver Sensor Model PHDTV1:
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...uct_id=2625055 


Philips-Magnavox Silver Sensor model is PM-HDTV1:
http://gemini-usa.com/a5/ModelDetail...369620&Rnd=200 


and I've seen that the Gemini model is GHDTV1.


Given that they are all from the same company, they are probably all the same.


================================================

Philips (aka Gemini) now sells an amplified Silver Sensor model PHDTV3:
http://www.gemini-usa.com/gemini/pressDetail.asp?ID=36 
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...A133270%3A4536 


Looks like they put the Silver Sensor inside a protective plastic case to make it more kid proof,

built-in an adjustable 10 dB Preamp and added some Rabbit Ears to improve the VHF performance.


They now have an amplified, Rabbit Eared model that can compete directly with the Terk HDTVa.

(The unamplified model is the Terk HDTVi, which also has Rabbit Ears for VHF.)


======================================================

Kerry Cozad reported test results for on-air gain, VSWR and antenna pattern measurements

for the Gemini-Philips-Zenith Silver Sensor, Terk HDTVi and other models:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1118216319 


There wasn't much difference, although each had good...and bad VHF channels.

Your better choice for an indoor LPDA type antenna would probably be the Terk HDTVi (unamplified) LPDA,

which comes with collapsible Rabbit Ears for optimizing VHF reception,

(not included in the unamplified Silver Sensor).


======================================================

Being so close to the broadcast towers, you should not use an amplified antenna of any kind, even if it is adjustable.

You want to rely on the tuned RF stage in your HDTV Tuner to suppress strong signals as best as it can.

You also might need to insert a Variable RF Attenuator (see Radio Shack) to prevent overloading your HDTV.

If there are any VHF stations on your nearby tower, they may be preventing reception of CH11 due

to excessive signal causing intermodulation distortion.

Try tweaking the Variable RF Attenuator to see if CH11 comes in.


====================================================

Winegard Square Shooterspecs say 4.5 dBd average gain for UHF, but don't give any VHF gain specs (so how bad is it???)

Kerry Cozad did VSWR and pattern tests, but didn't include the SS in the gain curves (why was that???)

It probably provides less VHF gain than Rabbit Ears, since the spiral log periodic structure is inherently a UHF antenna.


I don't know how well the new (overpriced) Winegard SS-3000 SharpShooter indoor antenna works for VHF,

but spec sheet shows only -5 dBd gain for VHF, which is worse than Rabbit Ears.

And where would you put this 4x5x27 inch monster indoors so that it's pointed in the right direction?


=====================================================

But once you bite the bullet and decide on an outdoor (or attic) antenna,

the CM-4228 (note it's excellent VHF performance) or a purpose build VHF antenna become viable options.

An RF switch (or maybe a simple antenna signal combiner) could be used to either switch or merge the outdoor signal

with the indoor UHF antenna, which would be pointed in the opposite direction.


A cheap $20 antenna should be all that's required for UHF when you can probably see the towers from the roof of the building.

For VHF in the other direction, maybe something in the attic??? But first try the RF Attenuator trick.


----------



## BarnacleBill

Holl_ands, good grief, you are amazing. That must have taken a lot of work. Thank you so much. It will take me a while to absorb everything you wrote and it's time for bed. I love this board.


I bought the RS variable attenuator yesterday, but it did not seem to do much good. I think I need a more directional VHF antenna. Thet's why I was considering the SquareShooter. It may not be any "better" than rabbit ears for VHF, but if it is more unidirectional, then it will help suppress the strong signals from nearby Sutro tower, so it won't swamp channels 11-12. I can disconnect the antenna completely and still pick up the Sutro stations.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The arrow shaped Zenith silver sensor is the antenna that is considered a good indoor UHF antenna. The Terk HDTVi just has rabbit ears for VHF so if they don't work for you now then the HDTVi probably won't work either. For a bit more performance on VHF you could try the Winegard Squareshooter-1000 or -2000 (a -1000 with a built in amplifier) which has some front to back selectivity. You will need to try different antenna locations to find the spot with the best reception. To do better than the Squareshooter on VHF-high you would probably need to add a real antenna designed for outdoor use to your UHF antenna. .



I disagree with this. Rabbit ears appropriately extended and positioned should give better performance than either the Silver Sensor alone or the Square Shooter (in the same location, obviously it would have an advantage outside) for VHF both high and low.


Tips on using rabbit ears: http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html 


VHF gain for all three: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 

(bottom graph)


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *atye* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What I need is an antenna that will have much higher gain for the Twin Cities towers, and I'd like to pick up the Eau Claire channels on the back side.



Speaking from experience, the 91XG would be a poor choice, as the reflector screen is very good - it would completely block the signal from behind. You might do better with a Channel Master yagi like the 4248.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BarnacleBill* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Holl_ands, good grief, you are amazing. That must have taken a lot of work. Thank you so much. It will take me a while to absorb everything you wrote and it's time for bed. I love this board.
> 
> 
> I bought the RS variable attenuator yesterday, but it did not seem to do much good. I think I need a more directional VHF antenna. Thet's why I was considering the SquareShooter. It may not be any "better" than rabbit ears for VHF, but if it is more unidirectional, then it will help suppress the strong signals from nearby Sutro tower, so it won't swamp channels 11-12. I can disconnect the antenna completely and still pick up the Sutro stations.



Well, overloading from the Sutro stations sounds very likely so No amplifier should be used. You could probably point most UHF antennas in the opposite direction and still get sufficient signal from the Sutro stations. For VHF-high an antenna designed for that band will outperform the 4228 which has a wierd VHF receive pattern so if you can fit the Winegard YA-6713 I would recommend trying that. If you do try the square-shooter make sure that you can return it if it doesn't work.


----------



## thr3

I'm second guessing the placement of the in line coax grounding block for my new antenna. Based the layout and the grounding rod location, it was easiest to have the interrupt near the antenna where the balun is connected. This leave most of the cable run to the house downstream of the ground point. The references suggest the ground point should be right before the coax enters the house. Is this a serious safety issue? The circuit should be equivalent, but static electricity tends to run counter to my intuition.


The mast is also grounded to the same rod.


Can some one elaborate on this point?


----------



## greywolf

It's a code issue. I believe the purpose is to prevent the possibility the coax breaking and contacting a power line or losing its grounding and becoming a lightning attractor during a storm. If the break happened between the grounding block and the house, the coax lead into the house could deliver power line voltage or lightning through the coax. The exposure between the block and the house is therefore supposed to be as short as practicable for the least likelihood of damage.


The bigger real issue is that a separate equipment grounding rod must be bonded to the main building ground with 6ga copper wire or its equivalent. Otherwise, a potential difference could occur between the two ground points and ground loops and/or heavy damage from any nearby lightning strike could result.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BarnacleBill* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Holl_ands, good grief, you are amazing. That must have taken a lot of work. Thank you so much. It will take me a while to absorb everything you wrote and it's time for bed. I love this board.
> 
> 
> I bought the RS variable attenuator yesterday, but it did not seem to do much good. I think I need a more directional VHF antenna. Thet's why I was considering the SquareShooter. It may not be any "better" than rabbit ears for VHF, but if it is more unidirectional, then it will help suppress the strong signals from nearby Sutro tower, so it won't swamp channels 11-12. I can disconnect the antenna completely and still pick up the Sutro stations.



LOCATIONS:


So it appears that you are about a mile South of Sutro Towers in S.F.

And about 4 miles North of KNTV (NBC Analog and Digital),which sits atop a 1000 foot hill

with presumably a more or less unobstructed line-of-sight path

(give or take some local buildings that may be in the way).

From that close, their signals should be nearly as strong as from Sutro Tower.

[In which case moving the antenna around should have found a sweet spot free of multipath.]


Do you know for sure whether A-KNTV (CH11) and/or KNTV-DT (CH12) are broadcasting

from their new location 4 miles away (per Change Proposal in FCC database),

or whether they are still broadcasting from their old Licensed position 55 miles

away in the mountains South of San Jose???


Maybe they're still using the Licensed location and after the move,

NBC reception problems will go away???


=====================================================

SECURE THE HATCHES (AARRRGHHH!!!): [Just couldn't help myself...]


Fabricate a Type F connector with a short in it.

Attach the short to the HDTV Receiver's input and see how much VHF leakage you get.

The stations should be very weak, if at all.

If the VHF stations look real strong, you might have HDTV Tuner leakage problems.


Progress up the line to include any RF Splitters and HDTV interconnection cables

and then the downlead coax to see if there is much of a difference.

You may find that one of the connectors needs replacement or is simply dirty

(I clean the center wire with emory paper) or perhaps the coax itself is leaking in nearby signals.


Are you using (at least) double shielded coax for the ENTIRE run?

Maybe you are jumping to standard single shield cable closer to the HDTV?

If so, it may need to be replaced.


Also make sure to bypass any distribution amplifiers, since they can also overload.


=====================================================

re ANTENNAS (just in case you need to bring in a distant station):


A more directional VHF antenna may be needed, but the most important thing to look at

in your situtation is the Front-to-Back Gain Ratio (F/B in dB).

Only some of the purpose built VHF antennas will provide significant F/B >20 dB:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 

And some of them actually have a significant response lobe towards the rear.


W-G SquareShooter specs show VHF F/B of 6 dB for CH7 but only 2.6 dB for CH10.

(So is it better or even worse for CH11/22???)

Also note that the VHF pattern is skewed counterclockwise by about 45 degrees!!!

And the VHF gain???? W-G has "NO COMMENT".

It's not really intended to be a VHF antenna.....you get what you get....


W-G SharpShooter specs claim average VHF CH7-13 F/B of 11.3 dB.

But if you blow up their on-line polar plots, the tiny type sez it's only 7.5 for CH13.

Can we presume that CH11/12 is probably closer to this value???.

But since the SS-3000 is amplified, it's probably a non-starter a mile away from the broadcast towers.

[And I didn't see anything on how the 1 db Noise Figure Preamp might be bypassed.]


Rabbit Ear models are dipoles that presumably can be positioned to attenuate the undesired

local VHF signals....give or take bouncing off nearby objects.

But NEC Sim results don't support this common conjecture:
www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/RabbitEars.html


----------



## tzonehunter

Ok everyone, forgive me if this was already discussed, but I don't want to read through 92 pages of posts.


Can someone explain the difference between a signal amplifier and a preamplifier? They both do the same thing, right? So what am I missing....?


----------



## tzonehunter

Actually, more important. I'm trying to reliably pick up two channels in the VHF band that I get intermittently. I have a 60' run of good quality coax between my antenna and my TV. I've heard that either a preamp or amp will only make up for losses in the coax (it's the preamp I think). So would a straight signal amplifier be what I need?


----------



## AntAltMike

Preamplifiers are engineered to have lower "noise figures", and are line-powered, such that they can be mounted on the masts. The combined benefit of the low noise and short input lead allows the system to develop and sustain the highest possible signal-to-noise ratio.


It costs more money to contruct an amplifier with the lowest possible noise figure, and such a construction is incompatible with construction of an amplifier that has the highest output, so different products are used for distribution amplification if high power levels are needed at that point in the distribution system, as is the case in systems servicing multiple dwelling units and hotels.


----------



## AntAltMike

If you go to your local thread and furnish your zip code and the specific channel(s) you are having trouble with, you'll probably get more concise advice than you would get in this thread.


----------



## vstratos

I am thinking of putting up a cm 4228 up on my 70' tower behind my house. My question is, would running about 250' of cable be too much ? Of course I will use a preamp. Just wasn't sure if that would be too long a run to supply power to the amp and turn a rotor. THanks !


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vstratos* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am thinking of putting up a cm 4228 up on my 70' tower behind my house. My question is, would running about 250' of cable be too much ? Of course I will use a preamp. Just wasn't sure if that would be too long a run to supply power to the amp and turn a rotor. THanks !



Hope your tower is stronger than most! 4228's are murder for wind load. They also wear out the bearings on residential-grade rotors in a flash when you spin them in the wind.


250' of cable isn't too much, if you're using RG-6 or RG-11.


----------



## thr3

Grounding Question continued


Greywolf


Thanks


Your explanation makes sense with regards to where the ground interrupt point should be in the coax.


For my setup, I have everything running to a single grounding rod, which is the same one used for the electrical box. I think this meets the intent of the second part of your post. I used 8 gage Aluminum wire for the ground lead.


Your help is most appreciated as there isn't that much out there on this topic.


----------



## greywolf

Your situation meets the requirement for single point grounding perfectly. 8ga aluminum meets the NEC requirements as long as it is not run close to the earth until it gets to the rod. Check your local codes though as some places require copper. As for info on the subject:

http://www.mikeholt.com/documents/gr.../satellite.doc 

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/...67#post3618667 (may not be a valid link any more)


AVSforum member Signal posted the following helpful sites. Dish and antenna masts have the same grounding requirements.



National Electrical Code - Search for "dish" http://forums.nfpa.org:8081/necfaq/necsrch.htm 


The information there also applies to antenna grounding. In the 2002 code update, if a water pipe is used, it must be all metal and connected to the electrical panel within 5ft of where the pipe enters the building. The connection to the pipe from the lightning arrestor/ground block and from the antenna/dish mast must also be within 5ft of the pipe's entry.



Preventing Damage Due to Ground Potential Difference
http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm 


PSIHQ - Grounding Requirements
http://www.psihq.com/iread/strpgrnd.htm 


PolyPhaser Technical Information
http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_technical.asp 


Tower Page - see N1LO's GUYED TOWER TOPIC SUMMARY
http://www.qsl.net/n1lo/tower.htm


----------



## BarnacleBill




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So it appears that you are about a mile South of Sutro Towers in S.F. And about 4 miles North of KNTV (NBC Analog and Digital),which sits atop a 1000 foot hill with presumably a more or less unobstructed line-of-sight path
> 
> (give or take some local buildings that may be in the way).
> 
> From that close, their signals should be nearly as strong as from Sutro Tower.
> 
> [In which case moving the antenna around should have found a sweet spot free of multipath.]
> 
> 
> Do you know for sure whether A-KNTV (CH11) and/or KNTV-DT (CH12) are broadcasting from their new location 4 miles away (per Change Proposal in FCC database), don't support this common conjecture



Holl_ands, thanks again for all the info, though I did not understand the part (not quoted) about the F connector with a short.


It seems that everyone talks about how effective an antenna is, in terms of gain. Gain is not an issue for me, obviously, since I'm practically on top of the towers. As you state, I need to reject the strong signal from Mt. Sutro (322 deg) to avoid multipath and IM while trying to get the signal from Mt. San Bruno (155 deg). Rabbit ears can't do this, I think, because it does not have large F/B ratio. So, is there such a thing as an indoor antenna with a large F/B ratio for VHF high band?


BTW, yes, I'm sure that KNTV is broadcasting from from the new location. For one, I get some picture and sound instead of nothing. A few other things: no attic; I'm fairly high compared to the overall area but in a low point in the neighborhood; it's a very hilly area, which is the main cause of multipath.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BarnacleBill* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Holl_ands, thanks again for all the info, though I did not understand the part (not quoted) about the F connector with a short.
> 
> 
> It seems that everyone talks about how effective an antenna is, in terms of gain. Gain is not an issue for me, obviously, since I'm practically on top of the towers. As you state, I need to reject the strong signal from Mt. Sutro (322 deg) to avoid multipath and IM while trying to get the signal from Mt. San Bruno (155 deg). Rabbit ears can't do this, I think, because it does not have large F/B ratio. So, is there such a thing as an indoor antenna with a large F/B ratio for VHF high band?
> 
> 
> BTW, yes, I'm sure that KNTV is broadcasting from from the new location. For one, I get some picture and sound instead of nothing. A few other things: no attic; I'm fairly high compared to the overall area but in a low point in the neighborhood; it's a very hilly area, which is the main cause of multipath.



Maybe Analog KNTV moved but Digital KNTV-DT hasn't???


CH11/12 VHF antennas with good F/B are pretty big, as you can see by looking at these examples:
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/ya-6713.pdf 
http://www.antennacraft.net/Yagi.htm 

Without an attic, it would have to go on the roof.


Shorting out the input to your HDTV, and then each RF Splitter and pieces of coax

in your downlead, will determine if they are causing leakage from local towers.


a. Type-F connector with a short: take just the center wire from a short piece of

RG-6 and fabricate a cable of zero length by leaving a piece down the center and

soldering it to the surrounding connector.


b. Type-F cable with a short: take a piece of left over RG-6 cable and chop off the

end with only a couple of inches of cable left.

Strip the cable and twist the ends together. Soldering is optional.


c. R-S 1156 Terminating Resistor (75-ohm) Type-F Connector:
http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...t%5Fid=15-1156 


d. Terminating Type-F connectors also available at most Home Improvement Centers.

They are normally used to cap-off unused RF Splitter ports.


----------



## Fletchdude

I saw a dish type antenna on the net for over-the-air UHF reception. Any experience with this type antenna? I have a lot of trees that mask my conventional antenna reception here in the DC-Baltimore area.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Fletchdude* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I saw a dish type antenna on the net for over-the-air UHF reception. Any experience with this type antenna? I have a lot of trees that mask my conventional antenna reception here in the DC-Baltimore area.



I've read very few good reviews of this antenna. It performs very poorly and has nothing that would fix your tree problems.


----------



## atye

Can someone please explain to me why my long distance reception is so much better at night than during the day? Will this situation likely improve with a better antenna? I've tried a search for this topic but didn't find much.


----------



## Ronin_R6

I have a few questions for the antenna gurus.


I live in a 3 story townhome and was planning on putting an antenna in the attic.

here are the stations i would like to recieve. (info taken from antennaweb)
Code:


Code:


AntennaType     Call Sign       Channel Compass Orientation     Miles From      Frequency Assignment
blue - uhf      WRC-DT             4.1           94°              23.1                    48
blue - uhf      WTTG-DT            5.1           91°              23.2                    36
blue - uhf      WUSA-DT            9.1           92°              23.3                    34
blue - uhf      WJLA-DT            7.1           92°              23.3                    39
violet - uhf    WBDC-DT           50.1           91°              26.2                    51

i have read good things about the Channelmaster items so i am debating between the CM-4221 or the CM-4221. the 4221 is half the price (for obvious reasons) so if it will be sufficient then I would like to with that. So will the 4 bay be enough, or do i need an 8 bay. or if neither will get it done then what route should i go.


Do i need a preamp. The signal will have to fed down to the first floor which is a pretty far run. it will later have to be split to feed a second tuner.


It will be connected to a dish 811 for now. and i am looking to upgrade the my 511 to a 942 which is what will run the other TV


did I leave out any vital information?


Thanks for any help.


Matt


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *atye* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can someone please explain to me why my long distance reception is so much better at night than during the day?


 http://www.geocities.com/toddemslie/UHF-TV-DX.html 


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *atye* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Will this situation likely improve with a better antenna? I've tried a search for this topic but didn't find much.



No, a better antenna won't change the factors that cause better reception after sundown. But, an antenna with higher gain will have...well...more gain under all conditions. But if you don't have much or any signal reaching you during the day, more gain won't help. You know, 12 X 0 = 0.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ronin_R6* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So will the 4 bay be enough, or do i need an 8 bay. or if neither will get it done then what route should i go.



My guess would be that the 4-bay will be fine. These bowtie type antennas are excellent in attics.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ronin_R6* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do i need a preamp. The signal will have to fed down to the first floor which is a pretty far run. it will later have to be split to feed a second tuner.



Probably not. I'd try it first without the preamp. If you find you need one you can always add it later. But as close as you are to the transmitters, you would likely have trouble with a preamp being overloaded by the signal.


----------



## Ronin_R6

thanks for the info Neil. I didnt realize that the pre-amp could actually cause problems. I was leaning to the 4 bay myself but its always nice to get some reassurance.


thanks again


----------



## AntAltMike

There aren't too many situations where a preamp driven by an attic 4-bay bowtie is going to get overloaded by transmitters that are 23 miles away, though Ronon_R6 probably doesn-t need one.


If Ronon_R6 is only concerned with receiving Washington market stations, but he favors attic installation, then he still probably should spend the extra $30 for the 8-bay bowtie, which will also give him a better shot at Annapolis WMPT, but realistically, the difference between excellent and poor reception will be just the roll of the dice, determining what obstructions are between him and the transmitters.


----------



## Ronin_R6

I am not really concerned about any stations other then the 4 networks, and maybe WB50.


But is it better safe then sorry? meaning should i just get the 8 bay to be on the safe side? its not like $30 is going to break the bank or anything.


Also what type of cable should i run? RG-6?


----------



## MHD1080

New Here! But Is There A Way To Combine 2 Uhf Antenna S Together Instead Of Using A Rotor ,my Chaneels Are In 2 Different Directions


----------



## MHD1080

Also I Am On A Hill And The Stations Towers Are On The Other Side,any Idea's Of Away To Pick Up Better Signal?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MHD1080* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> New Here! But Is There A Way To Combine 2 Uhf Antenna S Together Instead Of Using A Rotor ,my Chaneels Are In 2 Different Directions



There are several ways to combine two UHF antennas pointed in different directions:


1. Standard RF Splitter/Combiner, which incurs about a 4 dB loss in sensitivity

(with optional Preamp on combined output).


2. Preamp for each antenna so don't lose sensitivity and then combine the two amplified signals

using an RF Splitter/Combiner that has DC PASS on both ports

(e.g. Zenith ZDS5010) in order to provide power to both Preamps.


3. Low Loss (0.2 dB) Stripline Antenna Coupler (with optional Preamp on combined output),

such as the $100 Lindsay:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST15877 

Some examples:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST16670 
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST18916 
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST19479 


A Preamp should not be used when broadcast towers are within about 20-30 miles

(and maybe less if you are behind a hill, or use indoor/attic antenna):
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1126998999 


When you combine two antennas, you also pick up more undesirable multipath reflections

than a solitary antenna and increase the noise floor a few dB.

So not all people have been successful.


=======================================================

An inexpensive alternative that avoids these problems is to use an RF A/B Switch

(e.g. R-S 1968) and simply switch between two coax downleads:
http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D1968 

Of course, that makes channel surfing and PVR recordings much more difficult.


One more: if the stations are generally opposite each other (180 degrees +/- 30 degrees)

and not too far away, then the rear screen on a CM-4221 4-Bay Antenna could be removed,

turning it into a modest gain bi-directional antenna.


=======================================================

PS: A search for "Stacked Antenna" arrangements will yield additional solutions

if the antennas are pointed in the SAME direction, .


----------



## tasm

Does anyone know anything about the terk tv55 hd antenna? Can you hook it up to a d-vhs recorder or hi def hard drive recorder? The antenna is so small (46in long) that it doesn't seem like it would pull in a strong enough HD signal.It says you can mount it under your window seal.But i also see these HD antenna's that are like 5ft tall. I don't want an eyesore on my roof.


----------



## greywolf

The thing is awful. Good antennas look like antennas have looked for decades.


----------



## Jams

Greetings all-


I am helping a friend in Eugene, OR finally jump into the HD world. According to antennaweb, he has DT stations locally all under 10 miles away, no major obstructions, but the channels are split - some are at 35 degrees and some are at 131 degrees. He has Dish with the 942 HD tuner and I was originally going to get him the Winegard SquareShooter but I cannot get any good info on whether this thing can deal with teh slip in direction of the stations. I like the squareshooter becasue it can attach to his dish. Suggestions?


Thanks!


----------



## Rack

Looks like MAX HD is at it again:
http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...TowerAntennas/ 

That VHF-hi horizontal stack is new, I believe.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jams* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Greetings all-
> 
> 
> I am helping a friend in Eugene, OR finally jump into the HD world. According to antennaweb, he has DT stations locally all under 10 miles away, no major obstructions, but the channels are split - some are at 35 degrees and some are at 131 degrees. He has Dish with the 942 HD tuner and I was originally going to get him the Winegard SquareShooter but I cannot get any good info on whether this thing can deal with teh slip in direction of the stations. I like the squareshooter becasue it can attach to his dish. Suggestions?
> 
> 
> Thanks!



SquareShooter beamwidth is quite wide: 68 degrees for lower UHF channels,

decreasing to 54 degrees for upper UHF channels.

But you would be working some of the channels on the back side of the antenna.


The CM4221 4-Bay Antenna with the rear screen removed would be a much better,

higher gain, bidirectional antenna.... and much less expensive.


The Channel Master StealthAntenna is also bi-directional, but with a lot less gain

than the CM4221.....actually it has about as much gain as the SquareShooter.


You could also consider a two antenna arrangement as was discussed just a few posts ago....


----------



## Jams




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> SquareShooter beamwidth is quite wide: 68 degrees for lower UHF channels,
> 
> decreasing to 54 degrees for upper UHF channels.
> 
> But you would be working some of the channels on the back side of the antenna.
> 
> 
> The CM4221 4-Bay Antenna with the rear screen removed would be a much better,
> 
> higher gain, bidirectional antenna.... and much less expensive.
> 
> 
> The Channel Master StealthAntenna is also bi-directional, but with a lot less gain
> 
> than the CM4221.....actually it has about as much gain as the SquareShooter.
> 
> 
> You could also consider a two antenna arrangement as was discussed just a few posts ago....




Well I was a little off. The spread of the DTV channels is less than 90 degrees so it seems if he pointed the squareshooter in the middle of them it's only looking just less than 45 degrees left or right for the signal.


I did not know that by removing the back screen from teh bowtie antenna that it would make it a bidirectional thing but since we're at just less than a 90 degree split would that really work? I don't think two antennas is a choice.


What about the clip on ones that terk and phillips make? They seem to be omnidirectional and since he's so close as long as it's up high enough I think that would work. Plus they have the built in dual diplexer which is good for him. He's not yet ready to run another line into the house.


----------



## Jams

If I got something like the Channel Master 3014 or 3016, would he have to rotate it to get both sets of signals or would it pick them all up (assuming it's installed rooftop high enough without obstructions)?


----------



## tasm

What is the smallest antenna i can get that will still pull in good signals?


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tasm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What is the smallest antenna i can get that will still pull in good signals?



Simple piece of wire! If the stations are good and strong, you really don't need much. I have just a wire hanging on the back of my media center PC's HD tuner card and I get just about all the digital channels in Seattle area! But then we are on a hill with a direct view of Seattle towers....


Amir


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jams* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well I was a little off. The spread of the DTV channels is less than 90 degrees so it seems if he pointed the squareshooter in the middle of them it's only looking just less than 45 degrees left or right for the signal.
> 
> 
> I did not know that by removing the back screen from teh bowtie antenna that it would make it a bidirectional thing but since we're at just less than a 90 degree split would that really work? I don't think two antennas is a choice.
> 
> 
> What about the clip on ones that terk and phillips make? They seem to be omnidirectional and since he's so close as long as it's up high enough I think that would work. Plus they have the built in dual diplexer which is good for him. He's not yet ready to run another line into the house.



Here is some info on antennas with wide beamwidths:


W-G SquareShooter: SS-1000 (no Preamp) or SS-2000 (with Preamp)
http://www.winegard.com/offair/s2shooter/WC-811.pdf 

When I blow up the scale, I see that it uses a field polar plot (volts/meter),

rather than the usual dB scale.

So 3 dB down is at 0.707, i.e. 20*log(0.707) and 6 dB down is at 0.5.

At +/- 90 degrees, it's down about 5 dB from maximum gain for low channels,

and about 8 dB for upper channels.

W-G says the average UHF gain is about 4.5 dB, so you have about -0.5 to -3.5 dBd gain

in two desired directions and about 4.5 dBd gain in undesired direction.

Fol. is NEC Simulation for SquareShooter:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/SquareShooter.html 

It shows that +/- 45 degrees is about 6 dB down on the sidelobes.


W-G Sensar III: GS-1100 (no Preamp) or GS-2200 (with Preamp) is much lower cost.
http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/WC-810.pdf 

Note that at VHF it is bi-directional, whereas at UHF it is unidirectional.

This is also a field polar plot (volts/meter) rather than the usual dB scale.

At +/- 90 degrees, it's down about 5 dB from maximum gain

(give or take a little due to the skewed response and pointing inaccuracies.

W-G doesn't say what the maximum gain is, but it must be less than 3 dBd.

So the net gain is -2 dBd in desired directions and + 3dBd in undesired.


C-M StealthAntenna:
https://www.solidsignal.com/prod_dis...=&PROD=ANC3010 

Gee, they don't say much...but antenna pattern is probably similiar to Sensar III.



Either of these antennas are much lower cost alternative to the SquareShooter

and all will perform about the same.


Note that omnidirectional antennas (e.g. W-G MS-2000 MetroStar and MX1405 Maxus)

will have about 0 dBd gain in all directions, but do not provide suppression of multipath in any direction.

Suppression of multipath being reflected into the "back" side of the antenna is highly desirable.


----------



## tasm

Simple piece of wire! If the stations are good and strong, you really don't need much. I have just a wire hanging on the back of my media center PC's HD tuner card and I get just about all the digital channels in Seattle area! But then we are on a hill with a direct view of Seattle towers....



What type of wire?Just standard coax cable,or special antenna wire?And will i be able to hook it up to a HD recorder to record HD?If i run a wire up the chimney, Do i have to expose the wire end?If it rains will it damage anything?


question for holl_ands below,


If i get the squareshotter ant. ,Isn't puting it in the attic under a roof going to block and sort of weaken the signal? Can i hook a squareshooter up to a HD recorder? I don't know anything about antennas,so forgive me if i sound stupid.


----------



## may012

I am trying to get OTA HDTV set up, but I'm having some problems with it. I'm hoping that somebody here can help me out. I am in the Boston area, and according to antennaweb I'm located about 7 miles away from the broadcast towers (and they're all in the same direction too).


I bought an HDTV tuner for my computer, and I went to Radio Shack today and bought a simple rabbit ears antenna with modest amplification (model 15-1838) to test it out. Even if I don't turn the amplifier on, my computer reports that I am receiving a strong signal (between 90% to 100%, whatever that means), but every 10 to 30 seconds, the signal will go out. The disturbances can be momentary or they can last up to 5 seconds before the feed comes back.


After reading stuff online today about antennas, I am assuming that the problem results from multipath issues. Does that sound right to everyone else?


If so, I've read that the standard UHF loop does a very poor job of isolating a single direction. I would be interested to hear ideas from everyone about any antenna that focuses well on a single direction. So far I am looking at the Silver Sensor and also the Radio Shack model 15-1880 antennas, but I'm open to other suggestions as well.


----------



## bobchase

Holl_ands & srenger


While sitting here waiting for Rita to steam roller over the station (she didn't), I collated some antenna data that I took last week. The antennas were all tested at the same place, on the same day, at the same hight. This time I used averaging to optimize for the DTV channels because I was looking for multipath or, specifically, multipath reduction from antenna to antenna. In previous testing, I had used the 'MAX HOLD' function to capture the peak of the NTSC carriers so I could get more measurement points to graph. However, MAX HOLD tends to mask the multipath ripple because it captures the DTV peaks also. Unfortunately, my neighborhood does not lend itself to that kind of testing as multipath there seems to be minimal.


I wanted to get a new baseline on all of the antennas for this winters attic & antenna testing. I have two people that I have promised a visit and both are at the far side of the DTV reception for the station. One is in Winnie, TX (and I hope he is OK after the storm). The other is just west of Conroe, TX. I wanted to see how the new antennas performed against the old favorites.


If you want to do any calculations with this data, the actual DTV average power received at the STB is 17.61 dB above the measured (charted) levels. The levels shown on the charts are because of the 100 kHz RBW of the spectrum analyzer.


Bob Chase

KHWB-TV

 

Antenna Testing 09-18-2005.pdf 274.8447265625k . file


----------



## holl_ands

If I read it right, it looks like UHF antennas with highest gain were:

1. CM4248, C-M "Diamond", UHF Corner Yagi

2. CM4228, C-M UHF 8-Bay Bowtie with Reflector Screen

3. CM3671, C-M "Crossfire", Hybrid VHF LPDA, UHF Yagi


in the middle:

4. 91XG, Antennas Direct, UHF Corner Yagi with 22 Bowtie Elements

5. 1469B, Scala, UHF LPDA inside a Radome Enclosure


and those with the least:

6. CM5646, C-M "Super-V", VHF Forward Swept "V", UHF Corner Yagi

7. HD7210, W-G "Ghost Killer", VHF/UHF Classic Yagi

8. SS1000, W-G SquareShooter, VHF/UHF Spiral Log Periodic


with the SquareShooter separated by several dB below the group.

It also was a terrible VHF antenna, contrary to W-G published claims.

So why would anyone buy one, other than it "matches" their SAT dish???


As expected, the CM4228 8-Bay Bowtie wasn't as good a VHF antenna as a

purpose-build VHF antenna, but it was only a few dB below the VHF/UHF Combos

for upper VHF (CH7-13) and finally dropped off for CH2-6.


Of course, this only addresses the gain parameter and not F/B and multipath rejection,

but since gain is obtained by narrowing the antenna pattern, they are related.


=========================================================

PS: Note typos on first page: "HD7120" should be "HD7210".

and Antennas Direct usually calls their biggest antenna the "91XG",

(although their home page calls it the "XG91" ....go figure....)


Any explanation as to why Scala LPDA would have a significantly higher noise floor,

such as in Business Radio and other regions?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *may012* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am trying to get OTA HDTV set up, but I'm having some problems with it. I'm hoping that somebody here can help me out. I am in the Boston area, and according to antennaweb I'm located about 7 miles away from the broadcast towers (and they're all in the same direction too).
> 
> 
> I bought an HDTV tuner for my computer, and I went to Radio Shack today and bought a simple rabbit ears antenna with modest amplification (model 15-1838) to test it out. Even if I don't turn the amplifier on, my computer reports that I am receiving a strong signal (between 90% to 100%, whatever that means), but every 10 to 30 seconds, the signal will go out. The disturbances can be momentary or they can last up to 5 seconds before the feed comes back.
> 
> 
> After reading stuff online today about antennas, I am assuming that the problem results from multipath issues. Does that sound right to everyone else?
> 
> 
> If so, I've read that the standard UHF loop does a very poor job of isolating a single direction. I would be interested to hear ideas from everyone about any antenna that focuses well on a single direction. So far I am looking at the Silver Sensor and also the Radio Shack model 15-1880 antennas, but I'm open to other suggestions as well.



The amplifier in the R-S 15-1838 may be overloading, even when Low Gain is selected.

I would avoid using any amplified antennas that close to the broadcast towers.


The Silver Sensor mini-LPDA has a moderate amount of multipath rejection.

The similiar Terk HDTVi mini-LPDA adds a pair of collapsable VHF Rabbit Ears.


In the past, I've used 4-Bay Bowties (e.g. CM-4221, W-G PR4400, or Antennas Direct DB-4).

The CM-4221 is the ugliest, but I could hide it behind a big chair in the LR.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tasm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Simple piece of wire! If the stations are good and strong, you really don't need much. I have just a wire hanging on the back of my media center PC's HD tuner card and I get just about all the digital channels in Seattle area! But then we are on a hill with a direct view of Seattle towers....
> 
> 
> 
> What type of wire?Just standard coax cable,or special antenna wire?And will i be able to hook it up to a HD recorder to record HD?If i run a wire up the chimney, Do i have to expose the wire end?If it rains will it damage anything?
> 
> 
> question for holl_ands below,
> 
> 
> If i get the squareshotter ant. ,Isn't puting it in the attic under a roof going to block and sort of weaken the signal? Can i hook a squareshooter up to a HD recorder? I don't know anything about antennas,so forgive me if i sound stupid.



You need to tell us where you are located. Preferable zipcode and nearest cross streets.

You should also punch this info into www.antennaweb.org to see what kind of antennas/preamps they recommend.


Putting an antenna 20+ feet above your roofline is always "best".

After that, it's a compromise process, depending on how much excess signal you have to begin with.


There is an antenna height loss the lower you go.

There is also an indoor/attic loss that depends a lot on your house construction.

See Bob Chase's earlier post re Outdoor vs Indoor measurements in his very lossy attic:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...32#post5410432 


And indoor/attic locations suffer the third whammy of strong multipath with short delay echos

(the worst kind of multipath for most receivers).


SquareShooter??? Overpriced, underperforming, need I say more....

HDTVi and Silver Sensor, uhhhh.....they're small and cheap (see amazon.com).

But if you are close to the towers and don't mind fussing with the antenna.....


Up the chimney? You gotta be kidding.....

It's a Fire code violation, and your insurance co. won't cover your loss if you get hit by lightning.

See fol for installation guidance:
http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/AntInstallGuide.pdf 

Note that indoor/attic antennas do NOT have to have lightning arrestors, etc.


The television signal from the on-air antenna can be fed to both the HDTV and the antenna input

on a recorder by using an RF Splitter, which results in another 4 dB of loss.

See for example the R-S 15-1234, but look around for a better price.


If you want to record the HD DTV signal, you need a recorder that will record HD signals:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=508907 

What equipment do you have now?


----------



## Geo05




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tasm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Simple piece of wire!
> 
> What type of wire?Just standard coax cable,or special antenna wire?



Any bare wire (inexpensive "rabbit ears" are a good choice).










Any wire intercepting a radio wave will generate a bit of electricity (at a matching frequency) - thats how antennas work.


To get a basic understanding of this, check out this link .


----------



## bobchase

Holl_ands

I have yet to find a measurement method for multipath that I would feel confident putting on the web. For FTB, just turning the antenna around and measuring is not sufficient. (I made that mistake already.) The reflections from the surrounding environment cause too many errors. So it would take a day (a morning at least) and another truck to cut patterns against a fixed transmit antenna. The transmitter, fed into a channel cut dipole, at the same height, located close by, with enough power to swamp out any reflections that the receive antenna would pick up. In the end, we would have a table similar to the CM & WG FTB tables. Do you think it is worth it?


The Scala data was taken in the morning at 1138. Then I did some CM7777 overload testing. In the late afternoon, between 1500 & 1700 I flew the antennas. The only reason I can think of for the variance is that the noise floor changed from the morning to afternoon. It doesn't seem likely, but I can't think of any other reason for the variance.


Normally, I take a Scala measurement 1st & last during testing to compare them. This day, the final measurement was taken with the wrong input attenuation, so the last measurement incorrectly shows the Scala with significantly less noise than the rest of the field.







All of the measurements were taken at 100 kHz RBW, 30 kHz VBW, and 0 dBm reference level. What you see on the chart for the Scala is the 1st measurement of the day.


The square shooter has a very high WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor). When I have been invited to customers' homes for antenna testing, she always asks 'won't that one work just as well as the rest?'. They will even ask this as I unload the truck, way before I ever run one up the mast. The runner up for WAF is the CM5646/CM3016. By the way, the SS1000 is the only antenna I have that consistently shows measurable multipath in the signals.

Bob C


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rack* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Looks like MAX HD is at it again:
> http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...TowerAntennas/
> 
> That VHF-hi horizontal stack is new, I believe.



Yep,it's a recent arrangement and I'm glad it was in the air when I picked up KMBC-DT-7 in KCMO.There were at least four other CH 7's that had to be nulled! This is the most load I've had on a CM rotor(2 8lb-13ft ants 6ft apart),but it seems to be handling it just fine.


With the crank-up/tilt-over tower and the swing-up mast it only takes a couple of minutes to get things down and change stuff around.There's no end to it 


BTW,if someone wants to do a UHF Quad that lives in the middle of nowhere,I've got a Lindsay combiner that I'm not going to put back in the air.It will produce maximum gain hands-down,but not good for Dxing.Pm me if interested,or send an email from my webpage.


Greg B


----------



## amirm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tasm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What type of wire?Just standard coax cable,or special antenna wire?And will i be able to hook it up to a HD recorder to record HD?If i run a wire up the chimney, Do i have to expose the wire end?If it rains will it damage anything?



This has been mostly answered. But just to be clear... No, you don't need to run the wire anywhere. You just need a few feet of it behind the set. Move it around until it works and then tape it to something so it doesn't move.


The wire must be unshielded so coax does NOT work. If you do want to use coax (which you probably have to since you will have a hard time inserting anything in the center pin of the tuner input), then just solder 4 to 6 feet of any wire you have sitting around to the center pint of the coax.


Some equipment used to come with spit wire (T shape) antennas that you served the same purpose. You may want to see if you have one sitting around from an old TV or VCR....


Note that the above is a poor man's antenna (I can just see the RF experts here cringing after they read the above explanation







). You are really better off getting a small indoor antenna. I just said mentioned the above choice since you said you are very close to stations....


Amir


----------



## deconvolver




holl_ands said:


> ...
> 
> Of course, this only addresses the gain parameter and not F/B and multipath rejection,
> 
> but since gain is obtained by narrowing the antenna pattern, they are related.
> 
> ...
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I think Bob Chase's test was showing net gain not raw gain so a low signal level measurement does not necessarily mean a poor antenna pattern; it could also mean a poor impedance match (high VSWR) which is the reason most UHF antenna's have much less signal than a dipole in the VHF band.


----------



## hardballpete

Anyone try/using this new antenna, which is new on the market?


Supposed to be at Best Buy, but I can't find one in my local store.


Any feedback?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *colofan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is there a DIY for antennas to build your own UHF antenna?
> 
> 
> I have seen web pages for HAM stuff but I haven't located a resource for a kit or make your own.



Just ran across the fol DIY TV antenna: it's a narrowband UHF Yagi:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vandeb/hdtv_web/hdtv_ant.html


----------



## thr3

Back to Greywolf on grounding (I was sidetracked from this project by Rita - fortunately no damage)


Thanks for all the help. I thought I was ok, until I saw the part about the lead in not running close to the physical ground. Unfortunately mine does. This may be a tough one to get right because I am in a townhouse and the ground lead is running under the gate to my patio to get over to the single point ground rod that the electrical box and phone are tied to.


I could add another ground rod (not easily) to avoid this, but then I don't get the single point tie in.


Sorry for all the questions. Youv'e been a great help.


----------



## greywolf

Just use a copper wire for the ground lead. Only aluminum is to be kept away from the earth.


----------



## mallu2u

Guys:


I just bought a new sharp tv with built-in hd tuner and having issues picking up digital channels. Can someone please give me some suggestions? I just created a thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=584715 


I would appreciate your help....


----------



## Wendell R. Breland

A PDF file of the Winegard series of pre-amps is attached to this post. Levels in dBmV have been added and the reference to the number of stations in allowable input levels.

*keenan*, There have been several good suggestions made in this thread to help with your DTV reception. How many will work - none, some, or all? IMO, only after an analysis is made using a spectrum analyzer can you determine your next step. You need to read the DTV Reception section of my post and the two articles by Peter Putnam, links have been provided. These articles are technical but I think you will find them worthwhile. Antennas at my place of employment are referenced at this AVS post.

*holl_ands*, How did you derive the levels needed to overload a pre-amp (i.e., direct addition, RMS, etc.)? I assume you know that if a DTV station and a analog station have the same peak value a DTV station will have 11.2 dB more power in the 6MHz than the analog counterpart. That is one reason why I chose to use the Winegard AP-4700. I measured a 10 dB gain for channel 52 after installing the AP-4700. Putnam has a short dissertation (referenced above) on this subject.


0 dBDTV is in the process of being defined by the IEEE (the DTV is superscript but I am not allowed to do HTML tags).


Edited 9-21-05 to change 12.3 to 11.2 dB.

.

 

Winegard_Pre-Amp Specs-0001.pdf 62.3896484375k . file


----------



## Keenan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wendell R. Breland* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A PDF file of the Winegard series of pre-amps is attached to this post. Levels in dBmV have been added and the reference to the number of stations in allowable input levels.
> 
> *keenan*, There have been several good suggestions made in this thread to help with your DTV reception. How many will work - none, some, or all? IMO, only after an analysis is made using a spectrum analyzer can you determine your next step. You need to read the DTV Reception section of my post and the two articles by Peter Putnam, links have been provided. These articles are technical but I think you will find them worthwhile. Antennas at my place of employment are referenced at this AVS post.



Yes there has been some great feedback. I'm currently trying to track down someone who can do exactly that, test with the spectrum analyzer, (inexpensively as possible).


It may be a few weeks or more before I have any results to relay here, but I will post them as I am much appreciative for all the help.


----------



## toneman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hardballpete* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyone try/using this new antenna, which is new on the market?
> 
> 
> Supposed to be at Best Buy, but I can't find one in my local store.
> 
> 
> Any feedback?



My next door neighbor has one of those; he claims that he can pull in some stations but not others, and even then, he's not getting a pretty strong signal w/ it. OTOH--when he asked me how my $24.99 Radio Shack 15-2160 outdoor antenna was working and I told him that it can pull in all of the local OTA HD stations...boy, you should have seen the look on his face! Maybe it was because he paid $150 for something that's not completely doing what he was hoping it would do, while in the meantime his next-door neighbor (me) is enjoying local OTA HD programming in all its glory with a $25 Radio Shack antenna!


Just to make one thing clear--I'm not saying that this Terk "Squareshooter-like" antenna is a piece of junk...it may very well work for others, depending on location/distance. But given my anecdote (above), the Radio Shack turned out to be a much better choice, both performance- and cost-wise.


----------



## Geo05




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *amirm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Note that the above is a poor man's antenna (I can just see the RF experts here cringing after they read the above explanation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ).
> 
> 
> Amir



This is probably a better choice than those "dishes" that are being sold for UHF reception.










Am no expert on this topic, but the typical UHF radio signal has a wavelength in the order of 3-feet. It is hard to understand how a small ''dish" antenna can work effectively here.


The typical sattelite transmissions on the other hand are microwave signals (wavelength less than 1-ft) that may quite readily be focussed into an LNB (or horn) using a 2-ft dish.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *toneman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My next door neighbor has one of those; he claims that he can pull in some stations but not others, and even then, he's not getting a pretty strong signal w/ it. OTOH--when he asked me how my $24.99 Radio Shack 15-2160 outdoor antenna was working and I told him that it can pull in all of the local OTA HD stations...boy, you should have seen the look on his face! Maybe it was because he paid $150 for something that's not completely doing what he was hoping it would do, while in the meantime his next-door neighbor (me) is enjoying local OTA HD programming in all its glory with a $25 Radio Shack antenna!
> 
> 
> Just to make one thing clear--I'm not saying that this Terk "Squareshooter-like" antenna is a piece of junk...it may very well work for others, depending on location/distance. But given my anecdote (above), the Radio Shack turned out to be a much better choice, both performance- and cost-wise.



Is the SS-3000 Sharpshooter (usually an indoor antenna) being compared to an outdoor antenna?


Hardly a fair test of the antenna itself if one is indoors and the other 30 feet in the air.....


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wendell R. Breland* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A PDF file of the Winegard series of pre-amps is attached to this post. Levels in dBmV have been added and the reference to the number of stations in allowable input levels.
> 
> *keenan*, There have been several good suggestions made in this thread to help with your DTV reception. How many will work - none, some, or all? IMO, only after an analysis is made using a spectrum analyzer can you determine your next step. You need to read the DTV Reception section of my post and the two articles by Peter Putnam, links have been provided. These articles are technical but I think you will find them worthwhile. Antennas at my place of employment are referenced at this AVS post.
> 
> *holl_ands*, How did you derive the levels needed to overload a pre-amp (i.e., direct addition, RMS, etc.)? I assume you know that if a DTV station and a analog station have the same peak value a DTV station will have 12.3 dB more power in the 6MHz than the analog counterpart.
> 
> .



It's hard to compare apples and pineapples.

I find DTV average power levels to be easy to measure and easy to handle from a theoretical point of view.

But NTSC is anything but simple. Most of the energy is contained in the video sync pulse and then the FM audio carrier, after which there is the chromiance carrier and oh-by-the-way the actual (negative?) video signals buried in there somewhere.

So I would be curious as to how you would define the 12.3 dB difference.

Hmm, you're probably refering to an NTSC vs 8-VSB comparison in the early ATSC documents....which includes the modulation/coding performance gains of ATSC.


========================================================

Since the Preamp manufacturers haven't updated their specs to reflect DTV signals, I had to make a few assumptions.


Overload of an amplifier, whether it is an audio amp, an HF Transmitter or a TV Transmitter is primarily due to PEAK signal excursions.

The peaks get clipped, resulting in distortion. So we need to worry about how often the individual signal voltages sum together and get clipped.


If you were to feed 400 Hz and 1000 Hz sine waves into an audio amp, clipping would occur when the maximum amplitudes of the two sine waves are in-phase so that the sum of their instantaneous voltage values exceeds the maximum voltage capability of the amplifier.


Recall that NTSC signals have always been measured with a video carrier peak power reading meter, since most of the energy is contained in the sync pulses.

And DTV signals are always measured with average power reading meters.

For example, these are the values that are used by the FCC and ATSC when defining ERP and adjacent channel interference requirements.


In order to treat DTV signals equally to NTSC signals with respect to overload specs,

I converted the average DTV signal levels into a peak signal level by adding the Peak-to-Average Ratio for 8-VSB signals.


One measurement of 8-VSB Peak-to-Average levels was done as part of the Australian Test effort in 1997:
http://happy.emu.id.au/lab/rep/ 

Since DTV peaks are statistical in nature, it is necessary to define how often a certain Peak-to-Average Ratio will be exceeded.

Automatic measuring equipment can determine this ratio for several different confidence levels (actually the fraction of time peak excursions exceeded this level).

Looking at the AUS chart, I extrapolated the curve to about 7.5+ dB and rounded it up to 8 dB, since that would represent a very long time between clipping events.

Note that the most strigent criterion measured was 7.3 dB, exceeded 0.01 percent of the time, where 0.2 dB was contributed by an adjacent channel transmit combiner system.


If you look at some of the early Zenith literature, you will see 6.3 dB stipulated for the 8-VSB Peak-to-Average Ratio.

But this is with very early equipment, perhaps before automatic test equipment and would be representative of a level that is exceeded perhaps 0.1 percent of the time per the AUS curves.


I also see some people, like Dr O. Bendov at Dielectric, rounding it down to 7 dB. So I think we are all in the same ballpark.

These measurements would no doubt also depend on the overload characteristics of the particular transmitter measured.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> If you were to feed 400 Hz and 1000 Hz sine waves into an audio amp, clipping would occur when the maximum amplitudes of the two sine waves are in-phase so that the sum of their instantaneous voltage values exceeds the maximum voltage capability of the amplifier.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> Recall that NTSC signals have always been measured with a video carrier peak power reading meter, since most of the energy is contained in the sync pulses.
> 
> And DTV signals are always measured with average power reading meters.
> 
> For example, these are the values that are used by the FCC and ATSC when defining ERP and adjacent channel interference requirements.
> 
> 
> In order to treat DTV signals equally to NTSC signals with respect to overload specs,
> 
> I converted the average DTV signal levels into a peak signal level by adding the Peak-to-Average Ratio for 8-VSB signals.
> 
> 
> One measurement of 8-VSB Peak-to-Average levels was done as part of the Australian Test effort in 1997:
> http://happy.emu.id.au/lab/rep/
> 
> Since DTV peaks are statistical in nature, it is necessary to define how often a certain Peak-to-Average Ratio will be exceeded.
> 
> Automatic measuring equipment can determine this ratio for several different confidence levels (actually the fraction of time peak excursions exceeded this level).
> 
> Looking at the AUS chart, I extrapolated the curve to about 7.5+ dB and rounded it up to 8 dB, since that would represent a very long time between clipping events.
> 
> Note that the most strigent criterion measured was 7.3 dB, exceeded 0.01 percent of the time, where 0.2 dB was contributed by an adjacent channel transmit combiner system.
> 
> 
> If you look at some of the early Zenith literature, you will see 6.3 dB stipulated for the 8-VSB Peak-to-Average Ratio.
> 
> But this is with very early equipment, perhaps before automatic test equipment and would be representative of a level that is exceeded perhaps 0.1 percent of the time per the AUS curves.
> 
> 
> I also see some people, like Dr O. Bendov at Dielectric, rounding it down to 7 dB. So I think we are all in the same ballpark.
> 
> These measurements would no doubt also depend on the overload characteristics of the particular transmitter measured.



I think that you should really consider the statistics of adding multiple DTV signals more carefully. If you use a peak to average ratio exceeded .01% of the time in a single channel but then add the voltage levels to determine the limit for two simultaneous channels the peak level calculated would only be exceeded about 1x10^-8 of the time. If the signals were independant and Gaussian (they're not Gaussian) then the proper addition for a constant probability of exceeding the threshhold level would be to perform a power sum not a linear voltage sum. I expect that for a large number of channels with similar levels as in a cable TV system the power sum would be a better way to estimate clipping performance with digital signals than a voltage sum would be. The voltage sum would be correct for NTSC signals or a mix of one ATSC and one NTSC signal though.


----------



## holl_ands

1. The Peak-to-Average statistics I described above were for a single DTV channel.

Since we would want to keep the mean time between clipping events fairly low, we would want to operate the Preamp

so that the average signal level was at least 8 dB below the peak clipping level.


2. For the case of two (or more) equal strength DTV signals, joint statistics, such as what you describe would apply.

For two DTV signals, I would expect only a fairly small 3+ dB back-off relative to the single DTV signal case,

since adding another DTV signal only adds very infrequent events when the two peak signals coincide.

It is effectively as if you had only one DTV channel with twice the average "noise" energy

and approximately the same underlying statistics (gaussian + gaussian = gaussian).

BUT, the ATSC pilot signal carries more energy than the gaussian noise part, complicating any simple analysis.


3. For multiple DTV signals, the backoffs are probably in the same ballpark as are currently listed by C-M and W-G for NTSC signals.


4. For the case of one DTV and one NTSC strong signal (e.g. the Santa Rosa situation),

the duty cycle of the NTSC sync signals must be convolved with the statistics of the DTV signal.

But with the NTSC sync duty cycle being so high to begin with, my first cut was to simply add the NTSC peak power

to the DTV average power plus the DTV Peak-to-Average Ratio, as was done in the overload calculation spread sheet.


5. For the case of multiple strong DTV and NTSC signals, the duty cycles of the various NTSC signals

would need to be convolved to derive an underlying NTSC clipping probability that would then need to be convolved

with the DTV clipping probabilities. Hmmmm, could get messy...


And how close would the NTSC sync signals from different stations on the same mountain top be synchronized upon arrival?

Aren't they all synchronized to WWV? And to what accuracy?


And if they aren't perfectly synchronized, then there would be long periods

of time during which they would be, followed by even longer periods of time when they would not overlap,

before repeating the long period of time when they do overlap and result in the most clipping....

Sounds like a worst case analysis is in order, in which the NTSC peak power levels are presumed to coincide a large percentage of the time.


6. Most real world situations have multiple NTSC and DTV signals, but they vary several dB from transmitter to transmitter

and invariably are going to vary even more by the time they arrive at the receiver, due to differences in path loss

at different frequencies, antenna gain variances and most importantly antenna location within the varying multipath signal strength "stripes".


=====================================================

The recent on-air antenna test results posted by Bob Chase shows the relative NTSC and DTV spectral signal levels at his location.


Note that since the Santa Rosa interference sources were adjacent channels from the same tower,

the relative power levels are probably similiar to those found for fol. Houston stations:

KUHT (N08+D09), KTXH (D19+N20), KRIV (N26+D27) and Bob's own KHWB (D38+N39).


======================================================

Wouldn't it be easier if someone would simply make some measurements (in-lab and ON-AIR) using REAL Preamps????


----------



## holl_ands

Question for Bob Chase:

In your signal spectra charts, KUHT-TV (N08) had an unusual hump between 180 MHz and

the visual carrier at 181 MHz.


I see that this PBS station does datacasting, which presumably uses 8-VSB packets,

and hence would not cause this hump.


I wondered if you knew whether they might also be using something like the DotCast dNTSC datacasting system

(also used for MovieBeam) that adds a reduced level QAM carrier in quadrature onto the visual carrier?


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So I would be curious as to how you would define the 12.3 dB difference.



First, the 12.3 dB should have been 11.2 dB and was corrected above.


With a spectrum analyzer set to 300 KHz RBW. Measured the span for a DTV channel, them measured a NTSC channel (the aural FM carrier was NOT included). The DTV was about 3.7 times the width of the NTSC visual. 20 Log3.7 = 11.2 dB. Also created a 50% duty cycle pulse with a DC level of 1V (2V P-P), then set the duty cycle to 14% (50/3.7) which produced .28V DC level. 20 Log(1/.28) = 11.1 dB.


There is a good article by John D. Freberg, Understanding DTV Transmission Measurements in Broadcast Engineering on this subject.



> Quote:
> Overload of an amplifier, whether it is an audio amp, an HF Transmitter or a TV Transmitter is primarily due to PEAK signal excursions. The peaks get clipped, resulting in distortion. So we need to worry about how often the individual signal voltages sum together and get clipped. If you were to feed 400 Hz and 1000 Hz sine waves into an audio amp, clipping would occur when the maximum amplitudes of the two sine waves are in-phase so that the sum of their instantaneous voltage values exceeds the maximum voltage capability of the amplifier.



Yes, I am well aware. That is one of the reasons that I Tri-Amped my main speaker system more than 25 years ago (recently redone and Bi-Amped).


----------



## mallu2u

Another request for someone to help me out with below..



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mallu2u* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Guys:
> 
> 
> I just bought a new sharp tv with built-in hd tuner and having issues picking up digital channels. Can someone please give me some suggestions? I just created a thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=584715
> 
> 
> I would appreciate your help....


----------



## holl_ands

Don't even get me started on speakers.....I'm in the middle of a rebuild.


When I'm done, I should be able to sell the antique parts on eBay for

about what I paid for the speakers back in 1971.

Not bad, zero cost of ownership, ignoring inflation.


My 24 year old Altec's were biamp'ed not long after I bought them...notable difference.

Today, the 15-inchers are recycled as a sub-woofer pair fed by a 1/3-octave equalizer

to ensure flat response down to below 30 Hz. [BTW: they came as a "QB3" Thiel/Small alignment.]


L/R are DIY planar magnetic dipoles plus ribbon tweeters and a separate amp feeding 10-inchers.

Originally I planned to replace the Altec's 800 Hz Sectoral Horn, using 7-inch instead of 10-inchers.

But I liked the bi-amped dipoles so much, I only built the Center in that configuration.


I'm still using LR/RR bass reflex cabinets I built in mid-70's for Quad after reading AES Journal

re Thiel/Small speaker alignments, although the 6.5-inch speakers have been replaced....twice.

One of these days I need to finish building new LR/RR cabinets, but I'm still

vacillating on whether these should be dipoles, and if so,

how is THAT going to work given the asymetrical nature of that part of the room.


====================================================

I've seen and heard some outrageous speaker systems at CES, including triple amp'ed surround speakers.

(That's 15 amplifiers, plus sub-woofers, so watch yur wallet.)


But the improved imaging of the dipoles grab me every time.

Unfortunately, the only systems that sound better than my antiques tend to be

outrageously expensive electrostatics or almost affordable planar magnetics.


PS: The Planar Magnetics I use are the B-G units from partsexpress.com, the same as

are used in the new Martin-Logan ATF speakers (e.g. Mosaic & Montage).


----------



## Shahenshah

Based on my research, I found that the Zenith Silver sensor is a highly recommended indoor antenna. However, I read the description on their website, though, they seem to be marketing this to the urban crowd. I'm in a rural area about 20-30 miles from the broadcaster.

Would this be a good purchase for me? Or should I consider something else? I do not have any buildings nearby. Just a few houses and a bunch of trees.


----------



## holl_ands

If you can install a 4-Bay Bowtie antenna, even if it's in the attic, then go that route.

Silver Sensor may be marginal at that distance, depending on your location and interior design.


----------



## mallu2u

which 4-bay bowtie do u recommend?


----------



## holl_ands

The Channel Master CM-4221 (aka CM-3021) is slightly higher performance due to the dense rear screen

and they're all about the same inexpensive cost.


However, if you want to hide it indoors behind a couch (like I used to do)

then the Winegard PR4400 or Antennas Direct DB-4 might be better looking.


----------



## mgtr

I have used the CM 4228 with great success (in SC) but I thought the wind load would be a little much in Fla. So, I used the Square Shooter 1000, with the CM 7777. It is definitely overpriced, but doesn't cause apoplexy among the HOA people. The combination works great at about 50 miles, but I had to cut a separate VHF antenna (simple) for one channel (11), which I mounted to the top of the antenna.

There may be better combinations, but mine works.


----------



## mallu2u

Thanks for the recommendation. Quick Qs come to mind.

- Do they still catch good signal if I put it behind TV or even cabinet (on which tv is sitting)?

- I am currently using (temporarily) a Philips Silver indoor antenna (built-in amp). Does not catch more than 2 channels at a time for some strange reason. 'Highly' directional. How are the above antennas in that regard? Would I need an amp or would they pull in better signals? Also, are they also as directional?

- DB-4 seems quite big for the room. DB-2 seems more like a decent size?

- Is there any difference b/w Channel Master and Antenna Direct antennas? One better than the other?

- Ideally did not want to use an amp for the bedroom as well since I already have an amp in the basement that is connected to the attic antenna. Channel Master amp that I bought from Lowes connected to my RS 15-2160 antenna. If you still think I should get an amp, which one?


----------



## MrMolding

Ronin_R6:


I live in South Riding and I've used both a Channel Master 4228 and 4248 in my attic. I have a long run to my basement from the attic and I use a splitter to feed three boxes back into different parts of the house. I get everything in DC and some Balitmore on stormy nights. Sometimes I get Hampton, VA as well.


The 4248 is a little better at getting everything in DC but the 4228 is better at pulling in Baltimore but it loses 26.1 if I try to point between the two cities.


Both configs needed a 7777 preamp. I get nothing without it due to the long runs, but it works for me.


Good luck!


----------



## Geo05




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrMolding* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ronin_R6:
> 
> 
> I get everything in DC and some Balitmore on stormy nights.



Could you please clarify. You mean all UHF, no VHF, right..?


----------



## jdmac29

I have a Samsung SIR TS 360 directv hd receiver. I have the biggest radioshack uhf/vhf antenna. When I tune into the CBS, ABC, NBC the receiver shows Dolby Digital sound available but my Pioneer VSX451 dolby digital receiver will not decode the sound into Dolby Digital all the time. CBS primetime shows it did but other stations it says DD but the receiver does not decode it. It stays dolby prologic II. I am using a 6 ft Phillips high end fiber optic cable.

I don't feel it is my equipment since it works great with DVD/Satellite PPV movies broadcast in DD, but does each channel need to be fine tuned to get enough signal for the dobly digital to be decoded.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Jdmac29


----------



## greywolf

See another sticky trhread at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=422073 to check which of your local stations are broadcasting 5.1 DD. Remember all DTV sound is DD but not all DD is 5.1 DD. There are many flavors from 1.0 to 5.1 and 2.0 which many local stations are delivering because they are not 5.1 capable is treated by many receivers as Prologic. Even if a local station can deliver 5.1, the program material may not be coded in 5.1 sound. If you get reception, you are getting the the full stream. Signal strength problems will show up as either video blocking and sound pops/dropouts for borderline signals or no picture and sound.


----------



## kflorek

Do horizontally close TV antennas, say 15 feet between, interfere?


I notice there are some very technical people here who might give me a handle on what to expect.


I am putting two rotatable antennas on the roof, so that two users will be able to watch independently, but the masts can't be located very far apart due to the situation. (It is a hip roof with not that much top ridge. I will use the chimney for one mount, and a tripod for the other.) The antennas will often be aimed at where most of the stations are grouped, so one will be close to being aimed at the other. Will this make a mess out of the signal (multipath)? If so, what can be done to help, if anything?


There is a bedroom wing (also a hip roof) that I could also put the tripod on. It is 3 1/2 feet lower, but that could offset the antennas about 6 feet perpendicular to where the major stations are. Would that location help?


The major stations are located about 12 miles away. I am completely surrounded by 50-foot-plus trees (none mine) except for about 20 degrees, which (luckily?) is almost where the major stations are if I mount the antennas as far to one end of the roof as possible. I usually can't get a lock on the HDTV signals during the day for long, but frequently can get two (out of seven) at night from an indoor or attic antenna. On analog, the signal looks strong, but lousey; no snow, but terrible multipath images.


----------



## MrMolding




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Geo05* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Could you please clarify. You mean all UHF, no VHF, right..?



Actually, I do get fairly good VHF with the 4228. I get 4, 5, 7, and 9. I forget the 4248's VHF response but it wasn't too terrible.


Good point! But, when the analog is turned off, my setup should be ok if they switch back to the other range.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kflorek* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do horizontally close TV antennas, say 15 feet between, interfere?



There's no guarantee both spots will give good reception, but they shouldn't interfere with each other at that distance at least above channel 3. Spacing of at least one wavelength is the general rule. This has to be element-to-element, not center-to-center when you are trying to prevent any possibilty of interaction. Channel 2 is around 18 feet , so that should be more than enough spacing for all but maybe ch. 2 and ch 3. For everything except low band vhf (2-6), 60 inches should be plenty.

Wavelength table: http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html 

More info on antenna interaction: http://www.kyes.com/antenna/stacking.html 


In practice it seems to be possible to cheat on this rule some, so most likely you're fine for all channels.


----------



## holl_ands

Indoor antenna placement is always problematic. Trial and error...

Higher is usually better (mine is at top of LR cathedral ceiling).

Away from walls and furniture is usually better.

Pointing out a window helps a lot.

Outdoors is always best.


DB-2 is probably better performance than Silver Sensor.

Preamps can be overloaded if you are close to ANY broadcast towers.

The additional loss of an indoor/attic location can extend the overload range.

Also being behind a hill.... Again: Trial and Error....


Your other questions were already discussed in this thread,

including Preamp Overload issues.


Any reason why you can't run the attic antenna signal (after C-M amp)

to both locations?


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrMolding* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Actually, I do get fairly good VHF with the 4228. I get 4, 5, 7, and 9. I forget the 4248's VHF response but it wasn't too terrible.
> 
> 
> Good point! But, when the analog is turned off, my setup should be ok if they switch back to the other range.



4 analog in Washington, DC is broadcast digitally on 48, 5 is on 36, 7 is on 39, and 9 is on 34.


----------



## MrMolding




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 4 analog in Washington, DC is broadcast digitally on 48, 5 is on 36, 7 is on 39, and 9 is on 34.



Correct. What I meant was that when analog is turned off and everything is digital, I was under the impression that the UHF channels that handle digital for the current analog 4, 5, 7, and 9 will be given back and the current VHF slots will become digital.


----------



## mallu2u

I would LOVE to get the attic antenna signal split working for the two TVs but for some reason it is not working. Posted the same issue in this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=584715 .


For some reason the signal is not strong enough it seems...which surprises me since the cable run is smaller to the bedroom tv and even tried same amp from basement and also another amp from RS. Maybe you can suggest me something..that I might be missing. I would love to get that working.


Below is the text from that thread:


--------------------------------------------------------

Here is my situation:


Just bought a Sharp 37'' LCD TV for my bedroom with built-in HD tuner. My OTA feed from attic is currently going to basement.


- Tried sending the signal to bedroom by splitting at satellite hub in basement but signal does not seem to be strong enough.


- Tried splitting the OTA signal right from the antenna into the bedroom with shorter cable (since attic entrance is from bedroom closet) and still the signals seems to be weak.


- Even connected the same channel master amp from basement into bedroom and got only 1 or 2 channels while basement TV got 10 from same amp. Seems like my basement Sony XBR TV has better tuner and sharp does not.


- Connected an indoor antenna such as silver sensor RS bowtie, Radio Shack 15-1880 to Sharp TV and got some channels but again not stable.


Now assuming that Sharp TV's tuner is pretty crappy, is there a way to boost the signals A LOT so that it picks up the digital channels? Any recommendations? Love the Sharp TV otherwise but this OTA issue is making me have second thoughts about it.


You help shall be appreciated.


----------------


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wendell R. Breland* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> First, the 12.3 dB should have been 11.2 dB and was corrected above.
> 
> 
> With a spectrum analyzer set to 300 KHz RBW. Measured the span for a DTV channel, them measured a NTSC channel (the aural FM carrier was NOT included). The DTV was about 3.7 times the width of the NTSC visual. 20 Log3.7 = 11.2 dB. Also created a 50% duty cycle pulse with a DC level of 1V (2V P-P), then set the duty cycle to 14% (50/3.7) which produced .28V DC level. 20 Log(1/.28) = 11.1 dB.



Further investigation revealed Peak-to-Average Power Ratios for ATSC and NTSC aren't all that much different:

8-VSB Peak-to-Average Power Ratio is 7 dB +/- 1 dB.

NTSC Peak-to-Average Power Ratio is 5.14 dB for Mid-Gray luminance level,

7.55 dB for Pure White and 2.23 dB for Pure Black. [That's 4.9 dB +/- 2.7 dB]


=====================================================

Fol. provides ATSC Grand Alliance Test Results (mid-90's) for percentage of time exceeded vs Peak-To-Average Power Ratio:
http://www.zenith.com/digitalbroadca...%20Results.pdf 

This is in very close agreement with the numbers discussed above (from AUS report).


=====================================================

Fol. from Harris (transmitter manufacturer) provides Visual Carrier Peak-to-Average for analog NTSC-M, PAL, ATSC and DVB-T:
http://www.broadcastpapers.com/tvtra...ansmitters.pdf 

These are as summarized above.

I would expect that under color bar test conditions, there would be more energy in the (negative) video signal,

since darker colors are at larger amplitude levels, and hence peak-to-average ratio might be in 3-4 dB region.

By the same argument, "typical" on-air signals would frequently have dark scenes that would approach

2.2 dB Peak-to-Average Ratio (i.e. more average energy for same peak power level).


The FM audio carrier can not be ignored in NTSC overload calculations.

Per Bob Chase's recent on-air tests, the average power appears to vary from 4 to 10 dB below the visual carrier.

The Chroma carrier is much lower and can be ignored.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mallu2u* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would LOVE to get the attic antenna signal split working for the two TVs but for some reason it is not working. Posted the same issue in this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=584715 .
> 
> 
> For some reason the signal is not strong enough it seems...which surprises me since the cable run is smaller to the bedroom tv and even tried same amp from basement and also another amp from RS. Maybe you can suggest me something..that I might be missing. I would love to get that working.
> 
> 
> Below is the text from that thread:
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Here is my situation:
> 
> 
> Just bought a Sharp 37'' LCD TV for my bedroom with built-in HD tuner. My OTA feed from attic is currently going to basement.
> 
> 
> - Tried sending the signal to bedroom by splitting at satellite hub in basement but signal does not seem to be strong enough.
> 
> 
> - Tried splitting the OTA signal right from the antenna into the bedroom with shorter cable (since attic entrance is from bedroom closet) and still the signals seems to be weak.
> 
> 
> - Even connected the same channel master amp from basement into bedroom and got only 1 or 2 channels while basement TV got 10 from same amp. Seems like my basement Sony XBR TV has better tuner and sharp does not.
> 
> 
> ----------------



Can you describe in sequence, including model numbers, each component, including RF Splitters, etc the TV signal goes through?


Why is the Channel Master Amp in the basement? Because that's where twin-lead goes?

It should be as close to the antenna as possible in order to overcome the downlead cable loss.


When you added an RF Splitter, where in the chain did you insert it?

Of course, it will contribute 4 dB of loss.


If you are using a Satellite Multiswitch to merge the TV signal onto all of the outputs,

there could be another serious loss of signal, unless the C-M Amp preceeds it.


----------



## holl_ands

In Feb05 Channel Election Results (see FCC website), CH 4 and 5 decided to keep their

new UHF assignments,

whereas CH 7 and 9 will revert back to original VHF assignments.


Next round results are expected soon, but don't expect too many changes.


Note that many stations are vacating CH2-6.


----------



## mallu2u

Ok.


RS Antenna (15-2160) in Attic (entry from my closet in bedroom). Connected to a Pre-amp CM 5041DBS (on lowes website). Using the internal cable running from inside home to back of house at the satellite hub. From the hub, I just used a connected to send a cable into my basement (drilled a hole right through) since TV is right behind hub. Cable goes into the power supply of the amp and then into the TV.


Now what I initially tried to do is put the Radio Shack splitter right near the hub so one cable goes into the basement and the other cable connected to the cable (via connected) that goes back into the bedroom. Seems that was too much distance for signal to come through and therefore did not even catch one channel in my bedroom Sharp TV. Even tried connecting various RS Antennas and also the CM antenna. Nothing.


Then, just for testing purposes I tried the dirty approach of running a cable right from attic through the room to the bedroom TV. Still nothing! I really thought that would work due to the shorter cable (50 feet). Even connected the same CM antenna from basement to Sharp TV but nothing...at that point determined that Sharp TVs tuner is surely weak since basement TV picked up 10-12 digital channels while Sharp TV picked about 2.


Right now I abondened the above approach have connected the Sharp TV to an indoor amp and am getting 2 channels (that too in the evening). And am waiting for input from you and others as to what I should be doing.


I am not using the satellite multiswitch for anything. I shall await your response. Thanks for the time taken to troubleshoot this for me.


----------



## deconvolver

See my post in your other thread. If you connected to the antenna with the pre-amp on it and didn't power the pre-amp then no signal would get through- a pre-amp blocks signals when not powered. A splitter would typically block the power to the pre-amp unless it had a DC pass through on the connection to the antenna.


----------



## mallu2u

replying to this post in the other thread as well.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> See my post in your other thread. If you connected to the antenna with the pre-amp on it and didn't power the pre-amp then no signal would get through- a pre-amp blocks signals when not powered. A splitter would typically block the power to the pre-amp unless it had a DC pass through on the connection to the antenna.


----------



## Jams

I have a firiend that I am helping get setup for OTA HD respetion. His two issues are that his stations are split between two arrays at a 90 angle and he is also on the wrong side of a hill and has many tall trees around the house. But he is only 3 miles from one set of stations and 9 miles from the other. We tried installing one of the supposedly omni-directional antennas that clips to his Dish but that didn't work well. We bought an amplified set-top thing that got some stations better and some worse. So now I have ordered for him a DB2 bowtie from Antennas Direct. They claim it has a 90 degree signal path and works very well when your stations are in different locations. Is this true of all bowties? I thought they were mostly very directional. I know this model is more expensive than the CM bowties but buying direct from AD gives me the option to return it for only the cost of return shipping if it doesn't work.


Anyone have thoughts/experiences with the DB2 or know about directionality of bowties? I have a bowtie on my roof and it seems very directional.


Thanks!


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Further investigation revealed Peak-to-Average Power Ratios for ATSC and NTSC aren't all that much different



For the purpose of pre-amp overload you are using 7 dB between DTV and NTSC stations is that correct? It works for me, but it will be interesting to see the final description of the 0 dBDTV from the IEEE. I could not find Bob Chase's on-air tests, do you have a link?


For station clock (sync) reference: PBS used to use three Cesium Beam clocks averaged together. We had two Grass Valley generators and I used to compare the phase angle (not frequency) between the two in degrees. On the HD production trailer we had a Leitch sync generator that could use the on board GPS receiver as a reference.


For fun: The peak-to-peak value 400 Hz and 1 KHz will remain the same regardless of the phase angle between them. The peak-to-peak value 400 Hz and 800 Hz (or any multiple 2nd, 3rd, etc. of 400) will change depending on their phase differences.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jams* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a firiend that I am helping get setup for OTA HD respetion. His two issues are that his stations are split between two arrays at a 90 angle and he is also on the wrong side of a hill and has many tall trees around the house. But he is only 3 miles from one set of stations and 9 miles from the other. We tried installing one of the supposedly omni-directional antennas that clips to his Dish but that didn't work well. We bought an amplified set-top thing that got some stations better and some worse. So now I have ordered for him a DB2 bowtie from Antennas Direct. They claim it has a 90 degree signal path and works very well when your stations are in different locations. Is this true of all bowties? I thought they were mostly very directional. I know this model is more expensive than the CM bowties but buying direct from AD gives me the option to return it for only the cost of return shipping if it doesn't work.
> 
> 
> Anyone have thoughts/experiences with the DB2 or know about directionality of bowties? I have a bowtie on my roof and it seems very directional.
> 
> 
> Thanks!



A bowtie like most antennas is not omnidirectional but if you point it between two stations that are 90 degrees apart you may get enough signal in each for it to work. If you point it directly at one station then the signal at 90 degrees will be very weak. There could be problems with multipath or being under the beam from 3 miles away. Check the analog stations and see if some channels have a ghost offset from the main image. If so then you may need enough directionality to select only one path. An amplifier could make things worse if the signals are too strong- look for a wavy herringbone pattern on analog channels to see if strong overload is present. The best solution may be two directional antennas with a switch to select which one to use but that won't work well for him if he has a Tivo. You also need to know if all the digital stations are UHF, if not then an antenna like rabbit ears that can work for VHF will need to be included.


----------



## toneman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is the SS-3000 Sharpshooter (usually an indoor antenna) being compared to an outdoor antenna?
> 
> 
> Hardly a fair test of the antenna itself if one is indoors and the other 30 feet in the air.....



My bad--I got mixed up between the SharpShooter and the SquareShooter...










But my anecdote comparing my neighbor's results with the Terk (Winegard SquareShooter SS-1000 equivalent) to that of my cheap RatShack antenna still stands.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wendell R. Breland* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For the purpose of pre-amp overload you are using 7 dB between DTV and NTSC stations is that correct? It works for me, but it will be interesting to see the final description of the 0 dBDTV from the IEEE. I could not find Bob Chase's on-air tests, do you have a link?
> 
> 
> For station clock (sync) reference: PBS used to use three Cesium Beam clocks averaged together. We had two Grass Valley generators and I used to compare the phase angle (not frequency) between the two in degrees. On the HD production trailer we had a Leitch sync generator that could use the on board GPS receiver as a reference.
> 
> 
> For fun: The peak-to-peak value 400 Hz and 1 KHz will remain the same regardless of the phase angle between them. The peak-to-peak value 400 Hz and 800 Hz (or any multiple 2nd, 3rd, etc. of 400) will change depending on their phase differences.



I am trying to determine how to extrapolate the published NTSC Preamp specs for use with DTV signals.

NTSC signals are measured with a peak power meter (actually the average power within the blanking interval,

rather than instantaneous worst case peak voltage).

In order to treat DTV signals equally with NTSC, for a first order estimate, all we need to do is convert DTV's

average power into peak power by adding about 7 dB +/1 dB. [Give or take a few dB.]


If I were concerned about preventing clipping in the Preamp with a single DTV signal,

I might want to allow a little more "head room" to accomodate the infrequent instantaneous peaks.

I would rather not have any erasure errors in the Preamp, since they detract from on-air multipath error resistance.

NTSC would also have some instantaneous peaks, but not as much as DTV and clipping would have little effect


I am still working on how to handle the more complicated multiple signal derating.

The C-M and W-G spec points are for a 46 dB Cross Modulation level.

That means the NTSC (peak) intermod products on the output of the Preamp are 46 dB below the individual (peak) output signals.

The NTSC multiple signal (peak) power backoffs are probably in the same ballpark for DTV (peak) power, however,

the EFFECT of intermod products is quite different for DTV vs NTSC, NTSC vs DTV, DTV vs DTV and NTSC vs NTSC.


========================================================

See bobchase 9/24/05 post in Antenna Thread comparing on-air measurements for 8 antennas:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&page=93&pp=30 


FYI, also see bobchase 3/28/05 at 8:23pm post comparing outdoor vs attic on-air measurements:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&page=58&pp=30 

And bobchase 3/30/05 post at 8:31pm showing results for different attic locations:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...32#post5410432 


2. Eons ago, NTSC signals were synchronized to the 60 Hz power grid.

Hence I would expect that all stations in a local area would have transmitted the first pulse in each frame

at almost the exact same time. At the Preamp, this would result in very large spikes.

I don't (yet) know whether there is synchronization of the 59.94 Hz frame rates from station to station.

This would be different than synchronizing to 5 MHz GPS/WWV and/or 60 kHz WWVB:

See "STANDARD" paragraph in fol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Question for Bob Chase:
> 
> In your signal spectra charts, KUHT-TV (N08) had an unusual hump between 180 MHz and
> 
> the visual carrier at 181 MHz.
> 
> 
> I see that this PBS station does datacasting, which presumably uses 8-VSB packets,
> 
> and hence would not cause this hump.
> 
> 
> I wondered if you knew whether they might also be using something like the DotCast dNTSC datacasting system
> 
> (also used for MovieBeam) that adds a reduced level QAM carrier in quadrature onto the visual carrier?



Holl_ands,

KUHT does indeed DotCast but their chief & I have been playing phone tag. I'll let you know what I find out.


Bob Chase


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am trying to determine how to extrapolate the published NTSC Preamp specs for use with DTV signals.



Very good and thanks for the links.


I did a simulation in Workbench (using sine waves) of 5 UHF channels at various levels to see what the composite P-P value would be. You may find it interesting.

Channel dBmV In Volts

CH 20 -12.0 2.51E-04

CH 22 -17.0 1.41E-04

CH 35 -22.0 7.94E-05

CH 40 -8.00 3.98E-04

CH 52 -24.0 6.31E-05

The composite values: P-P = 2.56mV, RMS = .91mV or +0.87 dBmV


For equal levels

Channel dBmV In Volts

CH 20 0.00 1.00E-03

CH 22 0.00 1.00E-03

CH 35 0.00 1.00E-03

CH 40 0.00 1.00E-03

CH 52 0.00 1.00E-03

The composite values: P-P = 11.39mV, RMS = 4.0mV or +12.1 dBmV


Edited 09-30-2005 to correct RMS level

Edited 09-30-2005 to add equal channel levels


----------



## bobchase

Quote:

Originally Posted by *holl_ands*
Further investigation revealed Peak-to-Average Power Ratios for ATSC and NTSC aren't all that much different:

8-VSB Peak-to-Average Power Ratio is 7 dB +/- 1 dB.

NTSC Peak-to-Average Power Ratio is 5.14 dB for Mid-Gray luminance level,

7.55 dB for Pure White and 2.23 dB for Pure Black. [That's 4.9 dB +/- 2.7 dB]


=====================================================

Fol. provides ATSC Grand Alliance Test Results (mid-90's) for percentage of time exceeded vs Peak-To-Average Power Ratio:
http://www.zenith.com/digitalbroadca...%20Results.pdf 

This is in very close agreement with the numbers discussed above (from AUS report).


=====================================================

Fol. from Harris (transmitter manufacturer) provides Visual Carrier Peak-to-Average for analog NTSC-M, PAL, ATSC and DVB-T:
http://www.broadcastpapers.com/tvtra...ansmitters.pdf 

These are as summarized above.

I would expect that under color bar test conditions, there would be more energy in the (negative) video signal,

since darker colors are at larger amplitude levels, and hence peak-to-average ratio might be in 3-4 dB region.

By the same argument, "typical" on-air signals would frequently have dark scenes that would approach

2.2 dB Peak-to-Average Ratio (i.e. more average energy for same peak power level).


The FM audio carrier can not be ignored in NTSC overload calculations.

Per Bob Chase's recent on-air tests, the average power appears to vary from 4 to 10 dB below the visual carrier.

The Chroma carrier is much lower and can be ignored.
Holl_ands,

What I haven't published is the CM7777 overload testing I was doing that morning. Although I have no problem sharing, I think I should redo it with two simutaneous sweeps. One in 'Max Hold' and the other in 'Average'. Then you can see the DTV average power vs DTV peak power. It will also capture the NTSC peaks. The off-air tests you reference above were done using a SA in 'View' mode and then averaging 100 samples. Which means that the NTSC power values shown are APL dependent and do not represent the peak power of the station. (APL = Average Picture Level)


NTSC transmitters are set up using average power. This is done by transmitting sync & blanking signals only. (No chroma, setup, or video information and the aural carrier disabled.) A demodulated wavform shows nothing above the 0 IRE scale and only the sync pulses below. The measured average power is multiplied by 1.68 to log the peak power. The aural carrier is then abled and set to where the station wants to run it (typically from 5% to 10% of peak power). The chroma sub-carrier plays a significant part in causing intermodulation products in a NTSC transmitter. However, I would agree that with the amount of carriers presented to a pre-amp in the Houston market, the chroma sub-carriers can be pretty much ignored for overload calculations.


When we setup or size DTV transmitters we use a 6.4 dB factor (that is often rounded down 4x) for peak to average power ratio. But that is based on 10E3 data samples. The tube manufacturer uses similar ratios when rating amplifier tubes. The newest E2V (aka EEV, aka Marconi) 3130 tube is rated at an output of 145 kW peak digital power and 35 kW average power. The same tube is rated at 88 kW NTSC visual only service or 77kW with 10% aural in a common mode amplification transmitter.


Bob Chase

KHWB-TV

 

IOTD3130-6.pdf 180.75k . file


----------



## JStew




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hardballpete* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyone try/using this new antenna, which is new on the market?
> 
> 
> Supposed to be at Best Buy, but I can't find one in my local store.
> 
> 
> Any feedback?



I purchased one about a month ago and am pretty happy with it. I live in the Dallas area, approx 35-40 miles from the "antenna farm" in Cedar Hill and it seems to do a pretty good job. I previously had a Silver Sensor, but obviously couldn't receive the one VHF station I need (for MNF). The Sharpshooter picks up both VHF and UHF, so I'm a happy camper. Not a bad antenna for about $80.00.


----------



## mvita

mgtr, could you possibly provide some details on your VHF enhancement to the Square Shooter? I also have a SS-1000 and a CM 7777. I'm about 38 miles from the Orlando digital towers, and I'm having trouble reliably picking up the NBC affiliate (WESH-DT, VHF 11). I'd like to add a simple folded dipole to pick up VHF 11. I'm particularly interested in what you did re: weatherproofing the dipole, and also any mounting advice you might have.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland

Bob Chase


Downloaded your Antenna Test PDF file. Nice piece of work, the effort to test and document such a task is greatly appreciated. Anyone remotely interested in television antennas should download Bob's Antenna Test .


I really like the look of the spectrum data. Was the data imported into Excel and plotted or does the Agilent E4401B generate its own graphs?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This time I used averaging to optimize for the DTV channels because I was looking for multipath or, specifically, multipath reduction from antenna to antenna.



Hmmm. Looking over the chart, I must say I'm confused and/or disappointed with the results. I've had a pair of 4248s up on my roof, and they didn't impress me. (I also tried just one, instead of both, and was even more unimpressed.) And the Channel Master 3671 is a fine antenna, but it is a combo which means that it has to compromise a bit on the corner reflector, so I'd expect it to be dramatically inferior to the UHF-only antennas for UHF reception. Somehow, it scored nearly as high as the 4248 and 4228s.


But your results turn those assumptions on their head.


Of course, digital reception is more than gain, and I don't understand the methodology you used (I'm a hobbyist, not an engineer) to try to balance the factors involved. Nevertheless, the chart is interesting...


----------



## pnyxxpress

Sorry to intrude on the subject but this looked like good spot to ask my question. I have just finished setting up a cm4228. I have a signal strengh of 74-89 atthe TV across the five channels that I receive. Can I get good results from a preamp with signal levels as high as these. I'm about 60 miles out from the towers.


Thanks


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wendell R. Breland* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Bob Chase
> 
> 
> Downloaded your Antenna Test PDF file. Nice piece of work, the effort to test and document such a task is greatly appreciated. Anyone remotely interested in television antennas should download Bob's Antenna Test .
> 
> 
> I really like the look of the spectrum data. Was the data imported into Excel and plotted or does the Agilent E4401B generate its own graphs?



The 4401 will generate a low-res pcx file, if you ask it to. What you are seeing is an Excel chart with 4001 data points per band, per antenna. (One 4001 point sweep for the UHF band and another 4001 data point sweep for the VHF band.) Each sweep (U or V) for each antenna has it's own tab within the spreadsheet. That data is displayed in the charts. Each tab also has a look-up function to show the peak NTSC value and the mid-band DTV value of each Houston channel but that data does not show up on these charts.


Bob C


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hmmm. Looking over the chart, I must say I'm confused and/or disappointed with the results. I've had a pair of 4248s up on my roof, and they didn't impress me. (I also tried just one, instead of both, and was even more unimpressed.) And the Channel Master 3671 is a fine antenna, but it is a combo which means that it has to compromise a bit on the corner reflector, so I'd expect it to be dramatically inferior to the UHF-only antennas for UHF reception. Somehow, it scored nearly as high as the 4248 and 4228s.
> 
> 
> But your results turn those assumptions on their head.
> 
> 
> Of course, digital reception is more than gain, and I don't understand the methodology you used (I'm a hobbyist, not an engineer) to try to balance the factors involved. Nevertheless, the chart is interesting...



sregener,

I too was surprised by the 4248 data. In fact, I went back to the raw data twice to make certain that I had not transposed the raw data between antennas. From past experience, I would have expected it to have a mid-range performance curve. Next month, when I check some of these antennas out at edge of the DTV signal, we'll see if the peck'n order changes.


When you see the 3671 close up and you just focus on the UHF portion, there is a lot of UHF antenna there. The only antenna I ever installed that matched the 3671's performance in the field was the biggest Quantum series antenna CM made. (1161B?)


Bob Chase


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Eons ago, NTSC signals were synchronized to the 60 Hz power grid. Hence I would expect that all stations in a local area would have transmitted the first pulse in each frame at almost the exact same time. At the Preamp, this would result in very large spikes.



There is no station that has a station that is a frequency multiple (2nd, 3rd, etc.) of its self therefore there is little danger of individual cycles of RF adding together that would cause any problems. If they were then the chance of subtracting should be the same and that would probably cause problems. I can provide data if you like.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pnyxxpress* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry to intrude on the subject but this looked like good spot to ask my question. I have just finished setting up a cm4228. I have a signal strengh of 74-89 atthe TV across the five channels that I receive. Can I get good results from a preamp with signal levels as high as these. I'm about 60 miles out from the towers.
> 
> 
> Thanks



The "signal strength" measurement of a DTV receiver is not really signal strength but some form of signal quality measurement so your signals are probably not too strong. If you really don't have any nearby TV towers than a Channelmaster 7777 amplifier will likely significantly improve the signal at the receiver input. This is because it has a lower noise level than your DTV receiver and being mounted near the antenna it will overcome the losses in the downlead. Of course as long as you get zero digital errors the DTV picture will be as good as it gets, the pre-amp will just give you more fade margin.


----------



## governorb

Whats does this mean?


DTV Antenna

Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live

Date Compass

Orientation Miles

From Frequency

Assignment

* yellow - uhf KOCE-DT 50.1 PBS HUNTINGTON BEACH CA 353° 32.6 48

* green - uhf KDOC-DT 56.1 IND ANAHEIM CA 352° 32.7 32

* green - uhf KCBS-DT 2.1 CBS LOS ANGELES CA 352° 33.0 60

* green - uhf KTLA-DT 5.1 WB LOS ANGELES CA 353° 32.6 31

* green - uhf KAZA-DT 54.1 AZA AVALON CA TBD 353° 32.7 47

* lt green - uhf KLCS-DT 58.1 PBS LOS ANGELES CA 353° 32.5 41

* lt green - uhf KVEA-DT 39 TEL CORONA CA TBD 353° 31.8 39

* lt green - uhf KXLA-DT 44.1 IND RANCHO PALOS VERDES CA 352° 32.7 51

* red - uhf KRCA-DT 62.1 IND RIVERSIDE CA 353° 31.8 68

* red - uhf KTTV-DT 11.1 FOX LOS ANGELES CA 353° 32.5 65

* red - uhf KMEX-DT 34.1 UNI LOS ANGELES CA 352° 32.7 35

* red - uhf KCAL-DT 9.1 IND LOS ANGELES CA 352° 32.7 43

* red - uhf KNBC-DT 4.1 NBC LOS ANGELES CA 353° 32.6 36

* red - uhf KPXN-DT 38.1 i SAN BERNARDINO CA 353° 31.8 38

* red - uhf KTBN-DT 23.1 TBN SANTA ANA CA 353° 32.5 23

* red - uhf KCOP-DT 13.1 UPN LOS ANGELES CA 352° 32.7 66

* red - uhf KCET-DT 28.1 PBS LOS ANGELES CA 353° 32.5 59

* red - uhf KJLA-DT 57.1 IND VENTURA CA 352° 32.6 49

* red - uhf KFTR-DT 46.1 TFA ONTARIO CA 12-05 352° 32.6 29

* red - uhf KABC-DT 7.1 ABC LOS ANGELES CA 352° 32.7 53

* blue - uhf KSCI-DT 18.1 IND LONG BEACH CA 353° 31.8 61

* blue - uhf KWHY-DT 22.1 IND LOS ANGELES CA 352° 32.6 42


----------



## mgtr

mvita-

I cut a length of 300 ohm twinlead to (I think) 28 inches (I am not in Fla right now), twisted the ends together, and put a 300 to 75 ohm balun in the middle of one lead. I cut a piece of 1" PVC pipe about 30" long, and then taped the twinlead to the pipe. For aesthetics (and to help hide it), I sprayed the pipe, twinlead, and tape grey. I then took the SS apart and screwed up through the plastic housing into the PVC pipe, thus mounting the pipe on top of the SS, crossways (in other words, the pipe is in the same plane as the housing). I took a short length of RG-6 and connected the balun out to the VHF in on the 7777, and opened up the 7777 and changed the setting from combine to separate.

It almost takes longer to write this up than to do it. I cannot take a picture (which would help enormously) because I am in SC. However, if you do a search in this topic for mgtr, you should turn up a response to me, when I had the same question as you, which included a picture of another fellows rig.

The upshot of the above, by the way, is i get WESH just fine, even though I am driving about 75 feet of RG-6.


Good luck!


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> sregener,
> 
> I too was surprised by the 4248 data. In fact, I went back to the raw data twice to make certain that I had not transposed the raw data between antennas. From past experience, I would have expected it to have a mid-range performance curve. Next month, when I check some of these antennas out at edge of the DTV signal, we'll see if the peck'n order changes.
> 
> 
> When you see the 3671 close up and you just focus on the UHF portion, there is a lot of UHF antenna there. The only antenna I ever installed that matched the 3671's performance in the field was the biggest Quantum series antenna CM made. (1161B?)
> 
> 
> Bob Chase



In your 3/28/05 post, I was surprised to see CM4221 4-Bay Bowtie had higher outdoor gain than any other antenna then tested,

except at lower frequencies, where it was squeezed out by the CM-4228 8-Bay Bowtie:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...71#post5399471 


Go Figure....


Could I also suggest testing the Silver Sensor (and/or Terk HDTVi) and perhaps the W-G SS-3000 SharpShooter....

But since these aren't fringe reception antennas, perhaps an indoor test could be a future undertaking.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wendell R. Breland* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There is no station that has a station that is a frequency multiple (2nd, 3rd, etc.) of its self therefore there is little danger of individual cycles of RF adding together that would cause any problems. If they were then the chance of subtracting should be the same and that would probably cause problems. I can provide data if you like.



I wasn't concerned re RF adding, it's going to be different freqs that are randomized by multipath anyway.

I was more concerned about the Peak-Envelope-Power coinciding.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wendell R. Breland* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Very good and thanks for the links.
> 
> 
> I did a simulation in Workbench (using sine waves) of 5 UHF channels at various levels to see what the composite P-P value would be. You may find it interesting.
> 
> Channel dBmV In Volts
> 
> CH 20 -12.0 2.51E-04
> 
> CH 22 -17.0 1.41E-04
> 
> CH 35 -22.0 7.94E-05
> 
> CH 40 -8.00 3.98E-04
> 
> CH 52 -24.0 6.31E-05
> 
> The composite values: P-P = 2.56mV, RMS = .91mV or +0.87 dBmV
> 
> 
> For equal levels
> 
> Channel dBmV In Volts
> 
> CH 20 0.00 1.00E-03
> 
> CH 22 0.00 1.00E-03
> 
> CH 35 0.00 1.00E-03
> 
> CH 40 0.00 1.00E-03
> 
> CH 52 0.00 1.00E-03
> 
> The composite values: P-P = 11.39mV, RMS = 4.0mV or +12.1 dBmV
> 
> 
> Edited 09-30-2005 to correct RMS level
> 
> Edited 09-30-2005 to add equal channel levels



If all of the sinusoid RF signals were initialized so that they start at 0 and then increase in voltage,

you will end up with a HUGE spike at the beginning....and maximum Pk/Avg.

Of course, real systems would have randomized starting phases.


Many data systems use a multi-tone FDM (Frequency Division Multiplex),

including COFDM, Wi-Fi, ADSL, SAT transponders and older HF modems.

The baseband peak-to-average ratio is very dependent on the relative starting phase for each tone at the beginning of each baud time.


----------



## dr1394

Preamp overload performance is pretty much dependent on the active device used in the design. Some rough numbers:


lo-noise bipolar = -20 dBm

dual-gate MOSFET = 0 dBm

GaAsFET = +20 to +30 dBm

MMIC = 0 to +10dBm


I wonder what device is in the Channel Master and Winegard preamps? How long have these products been on the market? Are they some ancient dual-gate MOSFET design from the late 70's?


Ron


----------



## PhracturedBlue

I originally posted some of this info in the Portland, OR thread, but perhaps I can get more info here. I have what appears to be a CM 3016 on my roof (from previous owners) which is a medium-range uhf/vhf. I recently got an HDTV capture card, and went out to aim the antenna to get better (any) reception. I live about 11 miles from the big transmitter array (where all the majors transmit from), but that is on top of a ridge, and I live near the bottom of the same mountain ridge 11 miles north (so there is basically no way to get a line of sight). antennaweb says all of the channels are blue. The channel I am most interested in is our PBS affiliate, which is on channel 27. Anyhow, after lots of playing around, I found that I could get about 15db SNR on PBS with the antenna pointed right at the transmitter (not good enough for a lock), but I can get about 18db by pointing the antenna nearly 180-degrees away (it's actually more like 160-degrees), which is enough for a lock, but with frequent dropouts. Since this antenna has a corner reflector, and I can tell it is very directional, I am assuming I'm picking up a reflection off the side of the mountain. By the way, all of the channels come in better when tuned this way (which isn't too surprising since they all transmit from the same point).

I figured I probably need a bigger antenna and/or a pre-amp. Since the most important channel for me is 27, and yagis really perform well at higher frequencies, I was thinking of getting a CM 4228 and a 7775 pre-amp. But I am worried about multipath as I seem to have quite a strong reflection. So now I'm wondering if I should get a bigger UHF-only yagi. Maybe a CM4248 or a 91XG instead (probably with the pre-amp as well). Is one of these more likley to work well for me than the other? I'd certainly prefer a yagi, as they are lighter, less ugly, and have less wind-resistance, but I'll get whatever is likely to give me the best reception.


----------



## holl_ands

By overload, do you mean 1 dB compression point with one (or two) signals?

Or the Output 3rd Order Intermod Intercept Point (OIP3), which is typically 10-15 dB higher?


Preamp specs stipulate something that is much lower: the point at which the intermod products for multiple

UHF signals is suppressed by at least 46 dB for 2 channels (C-M) or 5 channels (W-G).


Maybe you can read the non-existent part numbers on the UHF section

of the fol. C-M Spartan Preamp....

[300-Ohm input on the left, 75-Ohm output on the right.]


----------



## holl_ands

Can you be more specific on your location, give or take a few hundred yards?

Google-Earth is fun and easy to use for this purpose. Use Tilt controls to see elevation.


Yep, sounds like you are picking up a backscatter signal after it is reflected off a (nearby?) hill.


Every time I hear about someone sitting "under" the broadcast towers, it seems to be anybody's guess as to

whether you are starved for signal because you are "under" their very narrow antenna pattern (like a pancake).


On the other hand, it is more likely that you are saturated with signals coming in from

several different directions and multipath is your biggest problem.

Unfortunately, the SNR display only tells you how "good" the signal is,

and not how strong it is.


Two things that will combat multipath are:

1) try different antenna locations until you find a "hot" spot.

2) go with the CM-4228, because multipath nulls will affect some of the bow-tie elements and not others.

It also has higher gain, higher F/B ratio and narrower beamwidth to reject multipath.

It also costs less than a big Yagi.


For the same sort of reasons, either

1) the Preamp will help because you have low signal strength, or

2) it will make things worse because it is overloaded, or

3) it will be just what you need......

PS: The lower gain Winegard Preamps are better suited than CM7775,

since they can tolerate much higher signals before they overload.


Sorry if this sounds like it is just soooooo useful.....


----------



## greywolf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Use Tilt controls to see elevation.



And in cases like this, tilting the antenna itself can sometimes help. Just as rotation helps asimuth determination, tilt can help elevation determination in close in situations where there is a large elevation difference between transmitter and receiver.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> Two things that will combat multipath are:
> 
> 1) try different antenna locations until you find a "hot" spot.
> 
> 2) go with the CM-4228, because multipath nulls will affect some of the bow-tie elements and not others.
> 
> It also has higher gain, higher F/B ratio and narrower beamwidth to reject multipath.
> 
> It also costs less than a big Yagi.
> 
> ...



The Winegard PR-9032 is a big Yagi that costs much less and should have less wind load than a CM 4228. I agree that the 4228 will probably work better in this situation but the PR-9032 is cheap enough to try to see if it is good enough.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *governorb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Whats does this mean?
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf KOCE-DT 50.1 PBS HUNTINGTON BEACH CA 353° 32.6 48
> 
> * green - uhf KDOC-DT 56.1 IND ANAHEIM CA 352° 32.7 32
> 
> * lt green - uhf KLCS-DT 58.1 PBS LOS ANGELES CA 353° 32.5 41
> 
> * red - uhf KRCA-DT 62.1 IND RIVERSIDE CA 353° 31.8 68
> 
> * blue - uhf KSCI-DT 18.1 IND LONG BEACH CA 353° 31.8 61



Extras removed for clarity.


Yellow, green, lt green, red, and blue are codings of antennas - the further down that list you go, the larger the antenna you theoretically will need to get a good signal. Most suburban antennas will do fine at blue.


The UHF tells you that the signal is on the UHF band, traditionally channels 14-67.


The K***-DT tells you the call letters of each station.


The *.1 tells you the virtual channel number (i.e., the traditional analog channel you know as, for instance channel 50.)


The PBS/IND/ABC/Fox/Etc. tells you the network affiliation (IND = independent) of each station.


The city tells you the city of license for each station.


The degree rating tells you what compass direction the station's transmitter is from the address you provided.


The next number is the distance in miles to the transmitter.


The final number is the actual channel slot the digital transmitter is broadcasting on. If you're having trouble tuning a particular station, tuning to this number (e.g. 48-1) instead of the virtual number may help to clear things up.


You don't say if you're looking for an antenna recommendation, but I'd say you're highly likely to have success with a Channel Master 4221 for the list you provided.


----------



## PhracturedBlue




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can you be more specific on your location, give or take a few hundred yards?
> 
> Google-Earth is fun and easy to use for this purpose. Use Tilt controls to see elevation.



Sure. I am near here:

45°39'36.20"N

122°52'57.71"W

Elev 230 ft

(I don't think placing my coordinates on a message board is really a great idea, so that is just a rough estimate of where I am. If you want more precise coordinates, you can PM me).


The antenna is currently mounted on the roof, but moving it might not be that easy (and would make mounting a lot more difficult)


The Sylvan antenna group is here:

45°30'57.65"N

122°43'59.80"W

Elev 1056 ft

(That is ground level, I'm not sure how tall they are.


The Skyline group is (I think) here:

45°31'20.87"N

122°44'49.29"W

Elev 1128ft


(Note that KOPB (the channel I am most interested in) transmits from the Skyline site, but I'm not 100% sure i chose the right one (there are 3 transmit sites within a half-mile of each other, so it shouldn't really make much difference)


I played with the tilt controls in Google Earth, but didn't find them useful for determining obstructions. I really need a topo-map or equivalent for that.


> Quote:
> Unfortunately, the SNR display only tells you how "good" the signal is, and not how strong it is.



Well, i have 'signal strength' info, but I'm working in linux here, and the numbers don't have any absolute meaning, just relative to one another (I get a stronger signal by ~10% if I aim at the antenna, vs where I am aimed now, but the snr is lower, and, as I said, I can't get a lock


> Quote:
> Sorry if this sounds like it is just soooooo useful.....



It was actually very helpful, thanks.


----------



## Hoppy

just got HDTV reinstalled. I am using DirecTV and now I'm trying to get some OTA signals with a small internal set-top type of antenna. I live in Hattiesburg, MS, and have the following signals/distances


WDAM-DT (NBC) 10.7 mi

WDAM (NBC) 10.7 mi

WHLT (CBS) 9.9 mi

W47BP (PBS) 2.4 mi

WLOX (ABC) 44 mi

W45AA (PBS) 28 mi

WXXV (FOX) 43 mi


There are others in my antennaweb.org list of stations, but these are the mail ones.


I bought a TERK HD antenna from BB just to try and got exactly 1 signal, the local NBC (WDAM-DT). Nothing else.


So I am interested in seeing what other indoor antennas are thought to be good for this purpose. The Zenith ZHDTV1 HDTV-UHF antenna is very cheap and gets raves on Amazon and various other places, so I ordered one of those thinking it could not be worse, or could only be a little worse, than the Terk and it was $25 cheaper. But what other alternatives do I have? Is that TERK that clips onto the DirecTV dish agood antenna (OK, it's external, but I'm thinking outside the box now).


Anyway, any help or advice, suggestions, testimonials, humorous asides, etc. much welcomed.


----------



## bernieoc

One more grounding question.

My antenna, dish and coax grounding rod is 60' from main house entry ground. I have a good supply of 14-3 romex. can I use this ( all 4 wires tied together as one - on each end) as an adaquate tie in to my house ground? Also as my ground from antenna and coax to new ground? Are 3 insulated +1 bare copper wire tied togrther equal to required code wire?


----------



## governorb

Thank you Sreneger-


One more question. If I live in a 6 floor condo am I better off with indoor antenna or should I put an outdoor one on my balcony? I have a large balcony which faces south, just like DTV and dish which I am both able to get.


Is this a good indoor one

http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D1880 







Extras removed for clarity.


Yellow, green, lt green, red, and blue are codings of antennas - the further down that list you go, the larger the antenna you theoretically will need to get a good signal. Most suburban antennas will do fine at blue.


The UHF tells you that the signal is on the UHF band, traditionally channels 14-67.


The K***-DT tells you the call letters of each station.


The *.1 tells you the virtual channel number (i.e., the traditional analog channel you know as, for instance channel 50.)


The PBS/IND/ABC/Fox/Etc. tells you the network affiliation (IND = independent) of each station.


The city tells you the city of license for each station.


The degree rating tells you what compass direction the station's transmitter is from the address you provided.


The next number is the distance in miles to the transmitter.


The final number is the actual channel slot the digital transmitter is broadcasting on. If you're having trouble tuning a particular station, tuning to this number (e.g. 48-1) instead of the virtual number may help to clear things up.


You don't say if you're looking for an antenna recommendation, but I'd say you're highly likely to have success with a Channel Master 4221 for the list you provided.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland

Quote:

Originally Posted by *holl_ands*
If all of the sinusoid RF signals were initialized so that they start at 0 and then increase in voltage, you will end up with a HUGE spike at the beginning....and maximum Pk/Avg. Of course, real systems would have randomized starting phases.
At any given instance in time the total amplitude will be the algebraic sum of the RF signals. The same is true of acoustic pressure at any given point in space. See attached PDF file showing the RF signals.

 

RF Sine Wave-0003.pdf 13.5712890625k . file


----------



## greywolf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bernieoc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> One more grounding question.
> 
> My antenna, dish and coax grounding rod is 60' from main house entry ground. I have a good supply of 14-3 romex. can I use this ( all 4 wires tied together as one - on each end) as an adaquate tie in to my house ground? Also as my ground from antenna and coax to new ground? Are 3 insulated +1 bare copper wire tied togrther equal to required code wire?



Four 14ga wires have slightly more resistance than one 8ga wire. That isn't good enough for the required 6ga bond wire for the rod to the main house ground. It is good enough for the antenna or dish mast to the main house ground as far as resistance is concerned. Always check your local codes though.


----------



## holl_ands

Now try some randomized starting phases.

In practice a computerized search would find the optimum set that minimizes the Peak/Average Ratio.


----------



## adriana

hey guys i saw this site over google and i really need help on finding the best antenna. i live in los angeles and only 15 miles away from the transmitter tower and antennatv said that i need a red mid directonal tv antenna. i search around and i saw ZENITH Silver Sensor as one of the best indoor antenna but that only accepts HDTV AND uhf. but what is vhf and uhf? well currently my tv does not have HDTV build in and i was wondering if i could still use that antenna to pickup channel such as 4,5,7,9,11,13. i do not have cable or direct tv or anything and im not planning on getting those. i would just like to get clear and good reception on those regular channels. im pretty sure i dont have UHF so what would be the best VHF Antenna?

how about the philips silver sensor which accepts HDTV, digital DTV, VHF, UHF, and FM.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland

Quote:

Originally Posted by *holl_ands*
Now try some randomized starting phases.
PDF file attached as requested.


I need some help, holl_ands is giving me a real workout







!!

 

RF Sine Wave-0004.pdf 18.2041015625k . file


----------



## holl_ands

Quote:

Originally Posted by *PhracturedBlue*
I have what appears to be a CM 3016 on my roof which is a medium-range uhf/vhf. I live about 11 miles from the big transmitter array (where all the majors transmit from), but that is on top of a ridge, and I live near the bottom of the same mountain ridge 11 miles north (so there is basically no way to get a line of sight).

antennaweb says all of the channels are blue.

The channel I am most interested in is our PBS affiliate, which is on channel 27.

I found that I could get about 15db SNR on PBS with the antenna pointed right at the transmitter (not good enough for a lock), but I can get about 18db by pointing the antenna 160-degrees away, which is enough for a lock, but with frequent dropouts.

I am assuming I'm picking up a reflection off the side of the mountain.

By the way, all of the channels come in better when tuned this way (which isn't too surprising since they all transmit from the same point).

I figured I probably need a bigger antenna and/or a pre-amp. Since the most important channel for me is 27, and yagis really perform well at higher frequencies, I was thinking of getting a CM 4228 and a 7775 pre-amp.

But I am worried about multipath as I seem to have quite a strong reflection.

So now I'm wondering if I should get a bigger UHF-only yagi.

Maybe a CM4248 or a 91XG instead (probably with the pre-amp as well). Is one of these more likley to work well for me than the other? I'd certainly prefer a yagi, as they are lighter, less ugly, and have less wind-resistance, but I'll get whatever is likely to give me the best reception.
I used the (FREE) RADIO MOBILE (RM) propagation prediction program to calculate the Irregular Terrain PATH LOSS.

PATH LOSS is the ONLY parameter from RM used in my DTV PATH LOSS CALC spread sheet,

along with best guesses for your site specific parameters, so tweak away.

See fol. for spec summaries for various Antennas, Preamps, Baluns and Cable choices:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1126998999 

A detailed explanation of RM and the spread sheet is also included.

And it's fairly easy to download and use RM, including a helpful Yahoo User Group.


==================================================

Below is a Topo Map and Radio Link Profile for the coordinates you provided.

You are not "below" the broadcast antenna pattern as first feared.

The KOBP-DT tower is on the left and diffracts along the ridgeline to your location.

It shows one principal peak in the way, followed by a minor hill just South of you.

Note that the signal is skirting along the ground for the last several miles,

so, if you can, raising your antenna will help.


Although you are only 11.6 miles away there is over 36 dB of Diffraction Loss in excess of Line-Of-Sight, per RM.

CM3016 without a Preamp was calculated to be very marginal.

CM4228 (or most any other hi-gain antenna) greatly improved the available Fade Margin.


I also calculated improvement with W-G AP-4700 and CM-7777 Preamps for both antenna choices.

A high-gain antenna (like the CM4228) without a Preamp was better than the CM3016 with a Preamp.

And a high-gain antenna with a Preamp was better still.


An overload calculation was included for analog KNMT, with 2590 kW ERP.

There is a new station planned with 5000 kW ERP, but they probably are not on the air yet. If so, add another 3 dB.


The direct path signal was safely 30 db below AP-4700 spec overload point

and 23 dB below for CM-7777. This will ensure maximum sensitivity.

However, you are no doubt getting backscatter reflections from the bowl shaped hills 1 or 2 miles NW of you.

In order to play it safe, I would go with the higher overload AP-4700.

It only amplifies UHF and passes thru VHF with minimal loss.


Note that the CM-7777 is high gain Preamp for both UHF and VHF,

which will cause overload problems for VHF at your location.

And the CM-7775 is UHF only and does not pass the VHF signals.


==================================================

On Google-Earth, your coordinates were between Morgan Rd and Logie Trail Rd, near a power line, away from nearby hills and valleys.

When I did a "best fit" of your location for Antennaweb,

KOPB-DT and several other DTV stations were "yellow".

I had to move the location either more downhill or south, closer to the hill before I saw Red/Blue readings.

If this is the case, RM calculated another 3-6 dB of Diffraction Loss.

If you look at the profile, the worst location would be further South, along Cornelius Pass Rd.


=====================================================

The above runs were using the on-line SRTM-3 Topographic database that is autoloaded as RM needs it.

The higher resolution SRTM-1 database needs to be manually downloaded for your area before it can be used.


=====================================================

Every once in a while unusual problems in particular locations grab my interest.

In order to gather information on how well RADIO MOBILE predicts DTV reception relative to antennaweb.org,

I would appreciate hearing from you on how well various stations are received.


I hope this little exercise inspires others to give it a twirl....
 
 

 

Portland DTV Fade Margin Calc RevA.zip 8.404296875k . file


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *adriana* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> hey guys i saw this site over google and i really need help on finding the best antenna. i live in los angeles and only 15 miles away from the transmitter tower and antennatv said that i need a red mid directonal tv antenna. i search around and i saw ZENITH Silver Sensor as one of the best indoor antenna but that only accepts HDTV AND uhf. but what is vhf and uhf? well currently my tv does not have HDTV build in and i was wondering if i could still use that antenna to pickup channel such as 4,5,7,9,11,13. i do not have cable or direct tv or anything and im not planning on getting those. i would just like to get clear and good reception on those regular channels. im pretty sure i dont have UHF so what would be the best VHF Antenna?
> 
> how about the philips silver sensor which accepts HDTV, digital DTV, VHF, UHF, and FM.



We need more specific information on your location, like closest cross streets dude.


Also, what kind of antenna connections do you have on you TV?

Do you have just a single twist-on type connector or do you have one or two pairs of screws labelled "VHF" and "UHF"?


Silver Sensor is a UHF antenna (channel 14 and up) and isn't much of a VHF antenna (channel 13 and below),

but then you shouldn't need much....Rabbit Ears will work about as well or better.

If that isn't enough, then a big outdoor antenna may be next.


There is no difference between the last 30+ years of TV antennas and those currently labeled "for HDTV".


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *adriana* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> hey guys i saw this site over google and i really need help on finding the best antenna. i live in los angeles and only 15 miles away from the transmitter tower and antennatv said that i need a red mid directonal tv antenna. i search around and i saw ZENITH Silver Sensor as one of the best indoor antenna but that only accepts HDTV AND uhf. but what is vhf and uhf? well currently my tv does not have HDTV build in and i was wondering if i could still use that antenna to pickup channel such as 4,5,7,9,11,13. i do not have cable or direct tv or anything and im not planning on getting those. i would just like to get clear and good reception on those regular channels. im pretty sure i dont have UHF so what would be the best VHF Antenna?
> 
> how about the philips silver sensor which accepts HDTV, digital DTV, VHF, UHF, and FM.



One way to get an excellent picture is to get a digital set-top over the air receiver even if you don't have an HDTV. Radioshack had an Accurian model on clearence for less than $100 (but they are getting scarce- call your local stores before trying them), check the HDTV hardware forum for a thread with more info on it. I think Walmart also has a receiver that is not too expensive. You will get the best results with them if your TV can use an s-video (or better yet the three cable component) type connection. Most of the digital signals will be on UHF even though the station still calls itself by its old analog channel number. If you go to www.antennaweb.org and type in your address then it will show you the channels available in your area. If the last column labelled frequency assignment shows a channel of 14 or higher then a station is broadcasted on UHF. The antennaweb prediction is pessimistic in its digital station predictions though; I get all the major networks digitally from Hartford/New Haven with good outdoor antennas/pre-amp yet antennaweb predicts that I will get none.


----------



## PhracturedBlue




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I used the (FREE) RADIO MOBILE (RM) propagation prediction program to calculate the Irregular Terrain PATH LOSS.



This is wonderful information. I downloaded RM, and got maps for my area, however, I am not sure how you got the information about the transmitters (power, mast-height, etc). Is this information available online?

It is a cool program, and I'd love to be able to play with it. some more.


In any case, thanks for the data, I really appreciate the help and recomendations. I've found it amazing how helpful people are on this board.


Edit: Okay, so I found antenna info here:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=50589 which seems to state the the Digital broadcast has an ERP of 753kW (it looks like you used 380kW, which appears to be the analog transmission)


I plugged the numbers into RL (I didn't know how to get the antenna gains, so I just used what you used), and got this:


Am I doing this right?


When I plugged in the actual path loss for my coordinates (140 vs 149), and the Tx power of 753 vs 318, I see that the CM3016 should be giving me a Fade Margin of 27.2db (I'm not 10% sure what this is, but it is apparently the summary result from your spreadsheet). This would seem to say that the 3016 should be 'good' even without a pre-amp (which it certanly is not). So I'm not sure what is going on here.


----------



## adriana

im planning to watch only channel 2-13 but i really want it to be clear. i live in an 2 story apt. and im on the first floor. i check on back of my tv and it shows UHF/VHF connector. with the antenna right now i get ghosting which is really annoying. its just some cheap 10 dollar antenna that my parent bought. it looks like a little dish in the middle shape as a circle with two antenna sticks on each side.


deconvolver- i do have s video but there its only for IN VIDEO 1 and what is the three cable component? sorry im really new


thank you all for helping


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *adriana* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> deconvolver- i do have s video but there its only for IN VIDEO 1 and what is the three cable component? sorry im really new
> 
> 
> thank you all for helping



Three cable component is what the newest TVs (especially high definition monitors) and DVD players have; you don't need it for a set-top box because the s-video connection would work great. If you are already using all your video inputs to connect something else like a DVD player to your TV then you would need a way to switch between what is on video-1 and any external set-top box that you add. I have a surround sound A/V amplifier that can do that switching and there also exist little mechanical switches where you push a button to select which item you want to go to video-1. If you had a digital set top box then it should receive all your channels with a UHF antenna like the silver sensor. You would connect the silver sensor to the digital TV receiver box then an s-video cable and stereo cables between the box and TV video-1 input. You would then do an autoscan on the box with the antenna pointed in the direction of the station towers. With the TV set to video-1 you would change channels with the remote that comes with the box. The picture that you end up with will be better than is possible using the antenna input on the TV itself; especially during prime time when the digital channel is high-definition.


The station towers are located 28 degrees on a compass from your location. One way to find out how to point the silver sensor for the digital stations is to temporarily connect it to the UHF antenna input on the TV. Point the antenna until you get a UHF station from LA like KLCS channel 58 in well. Then move the antenna connection to the set-top box and do the autoscan.


Here is a link to the Radio-Shack set-top box thread (if you call around you might find a local Radio-Shack that still has one of these):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post6285356 


With an antenna connected directly to the TV input you would be getting the analog channel and there is no way to make a good directional antenna for channels 2 to 6 that is not huge. The technical reason is that the size of the radio waves for channels 2 through 6 are big but those stations are transmitting digitally on UHF channels and UHF waves are small so the antenna can be small.


----------



## RayL Jr.

Hey guys! I'm not sure if this a little OT, but I just reviewed a book @ Epinions called GEODESIC MATH AND HOW TO USE IT .


I did refer to it a lot in antenna positioning & got most of my calcs from it as well. VERY useful reference on spherical trig & other stuff too. Well at least you know what I've been doing lately...


----------



## AntAltMike

I have constructed a lot of multiple channel, multiple antenna headends in which there is often a difference in signal level of as much as 30dBmV between the weakest and strongest DTV signals. I always can avoid developing a DTV load that even approaches any plausible maximum output rating of any preamplifier I use because I generally bandpass filter and pad down any inconveniently strong DTV signal and can drop a notch on any excessively strong analog signal if it concerns me. But then, I have to take that preamplified spectrum and power amplify it as much as possible, because the loop wiring systems used in high rise buildings does not facilitate the insertion of line extender amplifiers.


As I gradually increase the power output of my Blonder Tongue BIDAs to the range where I have speculated that the load might be exceeding safe operating parameters, I always lose the weakest channels first. In fact, since I never lose the strongest channels before I have so thoroughly degraded the quality of the weakest channels that there is no point in even further increasing the power level of the strongest to see at what output level some of my stronger signals might be clipped beyond the point at which they can be processed. And even if I amplified them to that level, I'd still be speculating that the cause of the signal processing failure was clipping, rather than other, excessive intermodulation products.


I don't profess to have any insight into what happens to a low voltage sine wave when it is present in the same circuit in which a strong signal is getting clipped, but I don't think it gets clipped. Or maybe it does when it coincides with the peak of some other sine wave.


I would expect that digital TV signals would be relatively immune to the effects of clipping, because the processing of those signals requires identifying "one" and "zeros", whereas analog audiophiles claim that they can tell the difference between audio created by signals that are carried to their speakers through oxygen-free copper conductors.


In a cable TV system, where all of the channels have been balanced to exactly the same level, there might be situations where the first unacceptable parameter reached and then exceeeded is the clipping level, but in an off-air system, I believe the first casualites of calculable overload will always be the weaker ones getting excessively corrupted by intermodulation products.


There is never going to be a "holy grail" signal level standard for off-air DTV signals comparable to what we have for analog because, among other things, the definition of acceptable performance is qualitatively different. We are presently satisfied that if we deliver, to the curb, an analog signal with an S/N ratio of 45dB and a peak carrier visual carrier level of 0dBmV, then we can rely on that signal to remain qualitatively sufficient to please discriminating viewers while incurring the normal range of signal quality deviations, but acceptable performance could include accepting the circumstance of one frame per second having an S/N of 40dB or 35dB , since it is humanly impossible for anyone to notice that. Yet if one DTV frame per five thousand has a glitch in it such that it impedes the processing of that frame, then once, over the course of a movie, the picture will jam or visibly block for one full second and the audio may get knocked out for even longer than that. I don't know how we're ever going to meaningfully mathematize the probability of some glitch disrupting our signal processing.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PhracturedBlue* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This is wonderful information. I downloaded RM, and got maps for my area, however, I am not sure how you got the information about the transmitters (power, mast-height, etc). Is this information available online?
> 
> It is a cool program, and I'd love to be able to play with it. some more.
> 
> 
> In any case, thanks for the data, I really appreciate the help and recomendations. I've found it amazing how helpful people are on this board.
> 
> 
> Edit: Okay, so I found antenna info here:
> http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=50589 which seems to state the the Digital broadcast has an ERP of 753kW (it looks like you used 380kW, which appears to be the analog transmission)
> 
> 
> I plugged the numbers into RL (I didn't know how to get the antenna gains, so I just used what you used), and got this:
> 
> 
> Am I doing this right?
> 
> 
> When I plugged in the actual path loss for my coordinates (140 vs 149), and the Tx power of 753 vs 318, I see that the CM3016 should be giving me a Fade Margin of 27.2db (I'm not 10% sure what this is, but it is apparently the summary result from your spreadsheet). This would seem to say that the 3016 should be 'good' even without a pre-amp (which it certanly is not). So I'm not sure what is going on here.



Wow, you sure came up the RM learning curve at rocket speed!!!

Sounds like you are making great progress and just need to absorb it all in now.


The path profile looks slightly different, so I would guess that you are using your real, more accurate position.

Even with this change, you get 148.2 dB vs my 149.0 dB for PATH LOSS.

This is very close agreement, given that it varies a couple dB depending on the chosen range scale and specific location.


In the near future I'll post my RM settings for LA and San Diego as an example,

but it looks like you got most things right (e.g. horizontal polarization),

and no doubt have questions re some of the more obscure settings.


For improved accuracy you should download SRTM-1 to a folder and set RM up to use internal database,

rather than reloading lower rez SRTM-3 everytime you change range scales.


DTV_FADE_MARGIN_CALC_EXAMPLE says how to find info to plug into the spread sheet calculator.

Clutter Loss, Loss due to attic/indoor antenna location and loss of sensitivity due to antenna VSWR are on-going subjects.


DTV_ANTENNAS summarizes spec sheet, NEC Simulation and actual measurements for dozens of antennas.

The fol. thread also has a lot of useful antenna and other hardware info:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=546066 


Unfortunately, RM doesn't have very much site specific tailoring (or maybe I haven't found it yet, or it's just too hard).

Such as entering antenna gain vs channel frequency. So I just entered an average value.

Hence the need for the spread sheet calculator.


=====================================================

You should always bear in mind that RADIO MOBILE, like all of the Longley-Rice Irregular Terrain Models,

are based on statistical averages gathered from thousands of (ill defined) locations around the world.

The F(50,50) selection that I normally use (as per FCC OET-69) represents results

for 50 percent of locations, 50 percent of the time.

This means half the locations will have worse performance.

Or a particular location will have worse performance half the time.

Some say the Longley-Rice results are +/- 10 dB.

Hence the need to have an adequate Fade Margin.


I'm still collecting information on how much Fade Margin is "adequate".

I'm sure that 15 dB is too small and 30-40 dB should be enough.

In between, predicting actual performance depends a lot on those pesky assumptions....


But at least we can now do some "what if" exercises...


Such as rerunning RM with an F(50,90) setting, such as is stipulated for determining

SHVERA eligibility for distant network service.

Or even F(90,90)....so called "guaranteed" service reliability...

In which case the Fade Margin requirement would probably decrease.


======================================================

The FCC database has two entries for KOPB-DT (CH27).


1. The Special Temporary Authority (STA) entry says 381 kW,

[which was very close to an existing SYSTEM entry for "NBC KNBC-DT in LA"].

[My choices for receive antenna gain were also limited to existing entries, since I've used up all the SYSTEM entries.]


2. The Modification of Construction Permit (Mod CP) entry says that they plan to increase power to 753 kW.

The first entry did not stipulate an antenna or antenna pattern,

whereas the second lists a Dielectric model number that is presumably non-directional.


I have found it to be extremely difficult to determine when these planned improvements are actually on-the-air.

So I've assumed the worst case and used the lower power level.


======================================================

Note that although the Preamp input was not overloaded, the amplified signal level going to the HDTV was at a very high level.

RF Splitters and/or a Variable RF Attenuator (e.g. R-S 15-678) should be used on the input to the HDTV and tweaked

to lower the strongest signals (i.e. analog KNMT) so that they do not affect reception of other channels.

I would expect most HDTV's will start having intermod problems as the strongest signal approaches the -10 to 0 dBm region.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *adriana* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> hey!! thanks for the reply. well here my address so you can see what it says in antennaweb.
> 
> 
> LOS ANGELES, CA 90012



Maybe it's the paranoid in me but I'd recommend deleting your address in a public posting forum







Unless you already gave out a fake one, which in that case, excellent job!


----------



## adriana

so to my understanding is that i need to get a set-top box(Accurian HTS 6000??) and an antenna(silver senor). my row for Video-1 is taking up by the dvd player but i can easily take that out. so i would buy the set-top box and plug those cable from the box to to the s-video, video, L audio, and R audio.(all in video 1 row). then do a autoscan on the box with the antenna pointed in the direction of the station towers at 28 degrees.

if i do that then channels 2,4,5,7,9,11,13 will be clear? would there still be ghosting?

and if that won't work do you think radio shack will let me return those things? thank you this helped ALOT!! now i gotta go find the hts 6000 those seem to be sold out. oh i read about talking about STB? what does that mean


----------



## adriana

ok i just deleted it


----------



## PhracturedBlue




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The path profile looks slightly different, so I would guess that you are using your real, more accurate position.
> 
> Even with this change, you get 148.2 dB vs my 149.0 dB for PATH LOSS.
> 
> This is very close agreement, given that it varies a couple dB depending on the chosen range scale and specific location.



Actually, I think I just wasn't clear. The pic from my last post was at the same location I gave you (to show I could get similar results), though I did use the 1m geo-data (wihch might explain the difference). i also may have used a different tower location than you did. In any case, my number was very close to yours, so I figure I had everything set pretty much the same.


I've included a pic from my actual location. As you can see the path-loss is 140 now, at F(50,50). When I go to F(90,90) it shows 152dB. And thanks for explaining how to use those settings. I wasn't sure what I was supposed to do with them.


Also, I'm not sure what impact trees will have on the results. The land between the antenna and myself is almost entirely forested, mostly with large connifers.


Anyhow, I think I have enough info, and I'll just buy a 4228 and pre-amp (not sure which one yet), and see how it goes. I'll report back after I've done some real testing. Again, thanks for all the info. This has been a great learning experience.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There is never going to be a "holy grail" signal level standard for off-air DTV signals comparable to what we have for analog because, among other things, the definition of acceptable performance is qualitatively different. We are presently satisfied that if we deliver, to the curb, an analog signal with an S/N ratio of 45dB and a peak carrier visual carrier level of 0dBmV, then we can rely on that signal to remain qualitatively sufficient to please discriminating viewers while incurring the normal range of signal quality deviations, but acceptable performance could include accepting the circumstance of one frame per second having an S/N of 40dB or 35dB , since it is humanly impossible for anyone to notice that. Yet if one DTV frame per five thousand has a glitch in it such that it impedes the processing of that frame, then once, over the course of a movie, the picture will jam or visibly block for one full second and the audio may get knocked out for even longer than that. I don't know how we're ever going to meaningfully mathematize the probability of some glitch disrupting our signal processing.



You could just as well argue that the digital signal is easier to quantify than an analog one since the transition from reception to no reception is more abrupt. Very brief signal glitches are corrected by the error correction coding of ATSC and most slightly longer glitches just result in such minor anomalies as a few macroblocks in the picture. Longer drop outs are caused by such things as strong multipath by an airplane flying directly in the wrong path but with analog the resulting flashing picture is also fairly obnoxious. I think the main problem with digital drop-outs may just be that the viewer doesn't know what caused them. All digital drop outs just cause a frozen or blank image where each analog problem causes a specific issue that the viewer can learn to accept because they expect such things as big noise flashes for lightning, slow-fast-slow flashing ghosts for airplanes, bands of sparkles when they run their vacuum cleaner etc.


----------



## bobchase

AntAltMike,



> Quote:
> I would expect that digital TV signals would be relatively immune to the effects of clipping, because the processing of those signals requires identifying "one" and "zeros",...



The digital signal is far from being immune to clipping or even moderate compression in an amplifier. Remember that the digital signal is an analog RF signal when it leaves the transmitter. The DTV receiver has to constantly decide at which one-of-eight levels the RF signal presented represents and, when the signal is compressed, will fail to do that.



> Quote:
> And even if I amplified them to that level, I'd still be speculating that the cause of the signal processing failure was clipping, rather than other, excessive intermodulation products.



Compression and (eventually) clipping are the root causes of IMD. In truth, when someone argues that clipping is the problem and you say IMD is the problem, you are both rooting for the same team because your both saying the same thing, just in different ways. Compression causes IMD / IMD is caused by compression.


As to the strongest signal being just fine, yes, I would think that it would be. But that doesn't mean it isn't being clipped or compressed. Todays TV's can lock to a signal with almost no sync pulse. There are times while tuning the analog transmitter that I will see the consumer TV start to do flip-flops (one of the reasons it's there). I'll reset the waveform monitor to see the sync pulse and find only -10 IRE or so left. I'd had been concentrating on tuning the transmitters frequency response or the group delay so hard, I'd tuned my way into a corner and lost the sync pulse. A similar thing happens in your BT amps when you turn up the gain. As the gain is increased, the largest sync-tip compresses, perhaps even to the point of clipping, and all the while the IMD level climbs.



> Quote:
> There is never going to be a "holy grail" signal level standard for off-air DTV signals comparable to what we have for analog because, among other things, the definition of acceptable performance is qualitatively different.



The 'holy grail' would be about 17 dB S/N or better. (Some STB's can't lock at 16 dB S/N, even if the signal it is perfect in every other way and at constant level). A reasonable question would be: "How often could the S/N drop below that level and the customer still find it acceptable?". I would think that if the TV locked up once an hour, then the viewer would eventually 'wear out' and stop watching OTA TV. A homeowner would opt for another delivery system. In the case of the loop-down systems you work on, call you to fix it.


2009 should be a good year for you. With all the OTA NTSC transmitters gone, your IMD levels will drop, increasing your systems effective S/N. Additionally, there may even be some gain available in your amps because you will not need as much headroom as you did before with NTSC gone.










Bob Chase


----------



## Heuristix

A few questions from a newbie begining to look into HD.

My antennaweb data is as follows


yellow - uhf WTVE 51.1 IND READING 333° 23.4 miles 25

red - uhf WPVI 6.1 ABC PHILA 111° 9.7 miles 64

red - uhf KYW 3.1 CBS PHILA 111° 9.7 miles 26

blue - uhf WTXF 29.1 FOX PHILA 104° 9.8 miles 42

blue - uhf WPPX 61.1 i WILM 111° 10.1 miles 31

blue - uhf WPSG 57.1 UPN PHILA 111° 10.1 miles 32

blue - uhf WPHL 17.1 WB PHILA 111° 10.1 miles 54

blue - uhf WYBE 34.1 PBS PHILA 111° 10.1 miles 34

violet - uhf WLVT 39.3 PBS ALLENTWN 10° 34.5 miles 62

violet - uhf WHYY 12.1 PBS WILMTN 111° 9.9 miles 55

violet - vhf WBPH 59.1 FMN BETHLHM 10° 34.5 miles 9


1. Why do channels 6 and 3 show up as UHF rather than VHF? Can I use an UHF only antenna and try to receive these channels?


2. What does the last column (frequency assignment) refer to? It does not seem to follow the same rank order as the channel number. For example channel 6 has a frequency assignment of 64 (MHz?) whereas channel 39 has a frequency assignment 62 and channel 29 has 42. Are channel numbers not sequential with respect to frequency?


3. Luckily, it seems like the stations I would like to recieve are all at 111 degrees or the very close 104 degrees; so I could get away with a fixed directional antenna. However my house is in a wooded area on a slope with about a 10 degree incline and the antenna would have to point up the slope; i.e. broadcast towers are on the other side of the hill. Do I have a prayer? Based on my fairly meager understanding of the article by Peter H. Putman "Heavy Metal, Part I at svconline, I was going to try the Radio Shack VU-90 XR since it does not seem too bad, and is easily returned if it does not work. Or should I go for one of the more highly recommended antennas on these forums e.g. CM 4221 to give it my best shot?


Any thoughts appreciated.


----------



## bobchase

Heuristix,

The last column is the TV channel that the digital signal is actually on. Hence, ch 3 & ch 6 show up as UHF channels 26 & 64 respectively on the list.


Your are very close to the towers, so over the hill reception is not out of the question. Try to find a Channel Master 4228 at Lowes, Fry's, Home Depot, or some other store. It has good gain and good multipath rejection (eliminates ghosts) and you'll need both. It should cost less also.


If you want to or need to get both analog and digital signals from your antenna, as the VU90 can do for you, then look for a Channel Master 3016 or a Winegard HD7210 antenna. They both perform very well for homeowners in your situation.


Good Luck,


Bob Chase


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PhracturedBlue* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Actually, I think I just wasn't clear. The pic from my last post was at the same location I gave you (to show I could get similar results), though I did use the 1m geo-data (wihch might explain the difference). i also may have used a different tower location than you did. In any case, my number was very close to yours, so I figure I had everything set pretty much the same.
> 
> 
> I've included a pic from my actual location. As you can see the path-loss is 140 now, at F(50,50). When I go to F(90,90) it shows 152dB. And thanks for explaining how to use those settings. I wasn't sure what I was supposed to do with them.
> 
> 
> Also, I'm not sure what impact trees will have on the results. The land between the antenna and myself is almost entirely forested, mostly with large connifers.
> 
> 
> Anyhow, I think I have enough info, and I'll just buy a 4228 and pre-amp (not sure which one yet), and see how it goes. I'll report back after I've done some real testing. Again, thanks for all the info. This has been a great learning experience.



Good news, your actual location improved PATH LOSS by 10 dB, you must be closer to a ridge.

Which means your earlier antennaweb.org results probably correspond to a slightly worse location.

I've never had much confidence in antennaweb.org being very accurate with respect to terrain location.

I think that it is using either 1 km or 2 km square tiles..which is way too granular.


And you can generally see the importance of having an "adequate" Fade Margin.


The signal path just grazes the ridgeline, being in the trees a lot.

Conifers are the worst UHF absorbers, but it's only a relatively small fraction of the total path.


If it's any comfort, the underlying Irregular Terrain statistics were taken for a large number of locations,

so many of them had forested terrain like yours. So, it's already included in the model.


----------



## JRod0802

I recently bought an HDTV and I want to see what kind of HD channels I can receive OTA. I have been reading a lot on these forums, and i have a specific question. I live fairly far away from any towers. I *approximately* live at 42 degrees 18'55.90" N, 72 degrees 40'04.09". Roughly On Burts Pit Road between florence rd. and clement st. Northampton, MA 01062. Most of my signals come from Springfield or Hartford. (Most of these in the red or blue color at antennaweb) I was wondering if i would be able to mount a SS-1000 on my roof with a CM-7777 preamp and have a hope to get these signals. I also was wondering if the SS-2000 (built in pre-amp) would work just as well as the SS-1000 with the CM-7777 because it costs less that way.

Thanks again for making such a great forum. I have learned a lot in the last two days (back when i didn't even know what uhf/vhf meant) and would appreciate any information. Thanks.


----------



## holl_ands

Non-linearity in the Preamp creates IMD, as can be seen in textbooks by doing a series approximation

to the non-linear Input/Output curve and inputting multiple signals.


When you drive the Preamp so that it is actually clipping more than a few peaks per second,

the resultant SFDR (Spurious Free Dynamic Range) will be severely limited.


Presuming an input thermal noise floor of -106 dBm, for a CM-7777 Preamp with N.F. = 2 dB and Gain of 26 dB,

the output thermal noise floor would be -78 dBm.


The C-M and W-G overload spec points are levels which will result in intermod products being at least 46 dB below the strong signals.

For the CM-7777 Preamp's 51 dBmV (2.3 dBm) output (peak power) overload spec point,

the intermod distortion products would be 5 dBmV (-43.7 dBm).


Hence sensitivity for weak signals is reduced by about 34 dB when operating at the overload spec point.


For every dB of back off from the overload spec point, there is a 3:1 reduction in the 3rd order intermod levels:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ic#post6163454 

Hence operating the CM-7777 roughly 8.5 dB below the overload spec point, reduces the intermod levels by 25.5 dB.

This means that the output intermod levels would be 46 + 25.5 = 71.5 dB below the strongest signals, or about 2.3 - 8.5 - 71.5 = -77.7 dBm.

This is the optimal operating point that maximizes the sensitivity for weak signals, i.e. the SFDR.


=======================================================

The fol. IEEE paper provides further discussion on this subject:

"Interference between Television Signals due to Intermodulation in Receiver Front-Ends", Charles Rhodes, IEEE Trans. Broadcasting, Mar 2005.


The fol. papers provide additional info re definition and measurement of Peak-to-Average Ratios:

"Measuring Peak and Average Power of Digitally Modulated Advanced Television Systems", Charles Rhodes, IEEE Trans Broadcasting, Dec 1992.

and

"Measuring Peak/Average Power Ratios of the Zenith/AT&T DSC-HDTV Signal with a Vector Signal Analyzer", Gary Sgrignoli, IEEE Trans Broadcasting, Jun 1993.

and http://www.boonton.com/2002/pdf/AN50.pdf


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *adriana* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> so to my understanding is that i need to get a set-top box(Accurian HTS 6000??) and an antenna(silver senor). my row for Video-1 is taking up by the dvd player but i can easily take that out. so i would buy the set-top box and plug those cable from the box to to the s-video, video, L audio, and R audio.(all in video 1 row). then do a autoscan on the box with the antenna pointed in the direction of the station towers at 28 degrees.
> 
> if i do that then channels 2,4,5,7,9,11,13 will be clear? would there still be ghosting?
> 
> and if that won't work do you think radio shack will let me return those things? thank you this helped ALOT!! now i gotta go find the hts 6000 those seem to be sold out. oh i read about talking about STB? what does that mean



Since you can't get good, multipath free VHF signals in your location and

mounting a big outdoor antenna is probably not a viable option,

leaping forward with a Digital TV receiver should overcome those multipath blues.

In a couple years, this will be the ONLY way to receive free on-air signals

as the existing analog TV system is phased out.....and it might be even sooner.


The Radio Shack HTS-6000 is the least expensive High Definition Digital TV Receiver currently available:
http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...Fid=16%2D3499# 
http://support.radioshack.com/manuals/ome16-3499.pdf 

These are also called an STB (Set Top Box), because....uhhh, some people set them on top of their TV.


Sounds like you understand how to connect it to your TV.

You can display SD (Standard Definition) digital TV signals on those televisions equipped

with either an S-Video or Composite Video (Yellow) connector, plus Red/White for Stereo sound.

[For those people who don't have either of these, an inexpensive converter, like for a game console,

can be used to connect directly to the antenna input on ANY TV.]


In the future you could connect the HTS-6000 to a High Definition TV via Component Video cables

(Red/Green/Blue) and experience the full benefit of this new technology.


The HTS-6000 also has Optical and Coax Digital Audio outputs, so you can

connect one or the other to a Surround Sound System.


===================================================

You can check whether a store has a unit in stock at the R-S link above.

Unfortunately, the search engine appears to be limited to not much more than a single zipcode area.

I didn't have the patience to try EVERY zipcode in LA, but did find that the (92605 zipcode)

store in Huntington Beach (714-846-0158) has units in stock.

They also have them in stock down here in San Diego and Del Mar.

Best bet is to have the store do a search on their computer, rather than trying every zipcode in LA.


===================================================

You can also add an inexpensive Video Switch to select between the STB and your DVD:
http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D1982 
http://www.radioshack.com/images/Pro...OME15-1982.pdf 

or the following (no manual posted, so ask clerk if it is suitable):
http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D1217 

You might find one that looks better at WalMart, CircuitCity, BestBuy and elsewhere.


===================================================

A comment about Aspect Ratio Controls:

On old (analog) TVs, you will frequently see a movie in LETTERBOX format.

There are black stripes at the top and bottom.


When watching Digital TV on a old analog TV, like you have, you will continue

to see normal full 4:3 screen displays and LETTERBOX displays for many programs.

However, when High Definition (HD) programs are carried (mostly primetime now),

there are more options available.


The primary HD sub-channel is in 16:9 widescreen format in order to fit those new and wider HDTVs.

When the signal comes out the S-Video or Video port, there are NORMAL, WIDE and ZOOM

aspect controls available to shrink or expand the picture size to better fit your 4:3 TV, give or take those pesky black stripes.

Several stations also carry both HD and SD sub-channels with the same program,

so you can select SD to best fit your 4:3 TV.


================================================

Always ask the clerk to make sure, but Radio Shack normally has 30 day return policy.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> By overload, do you mean 1 dB compression point with one (or two) signals? Or the Output 3rd Order Intermod Intercept Point (OIP3), which is typically 10-15 dB higher?



1 dB compression point.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Maybe you can read the non-existent part numbers on the UHF section of the fol. C-M Spartan Preamp.... [300-Ohm input on the left, 75-Ohm output on the right.]



Many devices are available in surface mount, so the picture doesn't tell much. Due to the higher noise figure, I'll guess it's an MMIC design.


BTW, I wanted to thank you for turning us all on to Radio Mobile. Great program. I've been looking at the path from my location to the Sacramento DTV stations (for which I have a pretty good geometry) . Radio Mobile indicates that it's possible.

 


Ron


----------



## adriana

THANkks!!!holl_ands. gosh this fourm is like the best one out of all the other forums that talks about hdtv and all those stuff!! i love this forum!!!!!!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *governorb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> One more question. If I live in a 6 floor condo am I better off with indoor antenna or should I put an outdoor one on my balcony? I have a large balcony which faces south, just like DTV and dish which I am both able to get.
> 
> 
> Is this a good indoor one
> 
> http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D1880



It's hard to say for sure, since your stations are north. If you can pick up a reflection from a nearby building, outdoors may be better. Otherwise, you'll just be adding one more wall that the signal has to travel through in order to reach your antenna.


There is no better indoor antenna than the Zenith Silver Sensor. The Radio Shack antenna you list costs more, and performs much worse. You want to avoid anything that says "amplified" on it for an indoor installation.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *adriana* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> so to my understanding is that i need to get a set-top box(Accurian HTS 6000??) and an antenna(silver senor). my row for Video-1 is taking up by the dvd player but i can easily take that out. so i would buy the set-top box and plug those cable from the box to to the s-video, video, L audio, and R audio.(all in video 1 row). then do a autoscan on the box with the antenna pointed in the direction of the station towers at 28 degrees.
> 
> if i do that then channels 2,4,5,7,9,11,13 will be clear? would there still be ghosting?
> 
> and if that won't work do you think radio shack will let me return those things? thank you this helped ALOT!! now i gotta go find the hts 6000 those seem to be sold out. oh i read about talking about STB? what does that mean



You only need to connect either the yellow video connection or the s-video connection not both. The s-video connection will give you a slightly sharper image than the yellow composite video connection will. If you also have a video-2 input then just move the dvd player over to that or you can get a switch to connect two items to one video input. All the channels that you receive digitally will be as clear as they are at the station; with digital you pretty much either get a perfect picture or nothing. If you get a station just at the edge of being received (maybe 40 miles away or if you just point the antenna wrong) then you could see the picture freeze or go blank or big blocks appear in the image but you are close enough to LA that you shouldn't have issues with those stations.


----------



## K Rock XP

I post this in the miami thread but never got a response, maybe one of you guys can help me, or atleast point me in the right direction.


I can honestly say i've never been more confused in my life. I have no clue what to do. I really don't want a huge ant. sticking up from my roof. I was thinging of something a little smaller. i have my HD Tivo from DTV as my set top box, but i'm so confused on what to get for my house. I don't want an over kill but don't want a sucky ant too.

http://www.squadxp.com/news/results.JPG 


those are my results from antannaWeb. And i only care about channle 7-6 and 10. Though it would be nice to get those plus 33 and 39.


Also is there a nice cost effective ant that can pick up signal 360 degree's so that i just have to put it up? Or do they need to be pointed a certain way? My budget is $150.


I found this ant,

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_dis...=HDTVS#dishpics 


while at solid signal.com i don't know anything about this stuff so if terk sucks please let me know. IT's also very important to me that i get very nice crisp clear signal. My closest cross street is 162nd AVE. and 56th Street.


Also do any of you guys recommend me puting this ant. on the top top top part of my house right now my dtv ant is on the left right side of the house. if you see the pic below it would be on the right side 1st roof.

http://www.squadxp.com/news/house.jpg 


Thanks and if anyone can point me to the right ANT. I would be most greatful.


i also found some of these ant. cheaper and seem to cover more distance.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_dis...zoom=zoom#xview CM3016


also saw the cm4248 n 3671


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *K Rock XP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also is there a nice cost effective ant that can pick up signal 360 degree's so that i just have to put it up? Or do they need to be pointed a certain way? My budget is $150.



You should have excellent results with the Channel Master 4221 pointed at 48 degrees. (The ones that claim to get good reception from all directions don't.) Terk is not highly regarded, as their antennas tend to perform worse than antennas available for half or even a third of the price. The 4221 is smallish (2'x4') and performs very well for UHF and hi-VHF (channels 7+.) Plus, it's not terribly expensive, doesn't "look" like an antenna, etc.


Several places sell them online, or you might be able to find a local dealer who carries one.


----------



## cpcat

K Rock,

It looks to me that a CM 4221 should work fine for you. It is primarily a UHF antenna but should be fine for high band vhf at that distance as well (for your fox and abc). It appears that all stations are within a few degrees on the compass so you should be able to aim it and forget it.


The CM 3016 is fine for vhf but the CM 4221 should be better for all of those UHF channels. It's also smaller and less obtrusive. I couldn't get the link to the other antenna to work. Stay away from the SquareShooter as it will not perform well for vhf.


It's a shame you can't get those local folks to help you out.










You shouldn't need a preamp but try to keep your cable run as short as possible.


Let us know how it goes.


----------



## Bluestraw

I'm hoping someone could help me with this... I want to set up a HDTV receiver, but I really can't get a rooftop antenna installed







Does anyone know if I could get an internal setup working perhaps?


My AntennaWeb results are below. I'm not too far from these stations, so is there a hope to get this without an external antenna? I don't want to invest in all the equipment just to find it isn't going to work!


yellow - uhf WXIX-DT 19.1 FOX NEWPORT KY 12° 7.2 29

yellow - uhf WLWT-DT 5.1 NBC CINCINNATI OH 22° 7.6 35

green - uhf WCET-DT 48.1 PBS CINCINNATI OH 22° 7.6 34

green - uhf WSTR-DT 64.1 WB CINCINNATI OH 15° 12.7 33

red - uhf WKRC-DT 12.1 CBS CINCINNATI OH 31° 7.6 31

red - vhf WCPO-DT 9.1 ABC CINCINNATI OH 30° 8.1 10


Thanks!!


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *K Rock XP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I post this in the miami thread but never got a response, maybe one of you guys can help me, or atleast point me in the right direction.
> 
> 
> I can honestly say i've never been more confused in my life. I have no clue what to do. I really don't want a huge ant. sticking up from my roof. I was thinging of something a little smaller. i have my HD Tivo from DTV as my set top box, but i'm so confused on what to get for my house. I don't want an over kill but don't want a sucky ant too.
> 
> http://www.squadxp.com/news/results.JPG
> 
> 
> those are my results from antannaWeb. And i only care about channle 7-6 and 10. Though it would be nice to get those plus 33 and 39.
> 
> 
> Also is there a nice cost effective ant that can pick up signal 360 degree's so that i just have to put it up? Or do they need to be pointed a certain way? My budget is $150.
> 
> 
> I found this ant,
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_dis...=HDTVS#dishpics
> 
> 
> while at solid signal.com i don't know anything about this stuff so if terk sucks please let me know. IT's also very important to me that i get very nice crisp clear signal. My closest cross street is 162nd AVE. and 56th Street.
> 
> 
> Also do any of you guys recommend me puting this ant. on the top top top part of my house right now my dtv ant is on the left right side of the house. if you see the pic below it would be on the right side 1st roof.
> 
> http://www.squadxp.com/news/house.jpg
> 
> 
> Thanks and if anyone can point me to the right ANT. I would be most greatful.
> 
> 
> i also found some of these ant. cheaper and seem to cover more distance.
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_dis...zoom=zoom#xview CM3016
> 
> 
> also saw the cm4248 n 3671



It should not be too difficult for you to get your digital local stations with an outdoor antenna. You should try to get a clear shot to the northest sky without any big trees right in the way if possible. You don't want an omni antenna because all your stations are in the same direction (northeast) so a directional antenna would work best. Yes, Terk is overpriced. There are many good choices from Channelmaster or Winegard, the main question is how big an antenna will you need. A Channelmaster set-up might be a CM 3016 or CM 3017 or CM3018 antenna plus a Spartan-3 0068 DSB pre-amp. A Winegard solution could be a PR-7010 or PR-7015 or PR-7032 antenna with an AP-8700 pre-amp. You could also use the Winegard 8700 pre-amp for better overload resistance with a Channelmaster antenna. A CM-3016 or Winegard PR-7010 antenna with a good pre-amp might be big enough if no trees are in the way; but you normally can't return an antenna if it turns out you need a bigger one.


----------



## terminaldawn

I appologize for this post because I really am clueless when it comes to OFF Air Attena HD terminology...


I just got a DirecTV HD TiVo installed with an Off Air Antenna and I am having trouble getting the WB (Channel # 18-1) in Milwaukee, WI. I get all other channels but 18-1. I was told that UPN (24-1) is broadcasted from the same tower, and I get that. So if that is true then I should be getting 18-1. I have no idea what kind of antenna it is that I have, its sitting next to the directv dish and it looks like a cake cooling rack LOL with two cross things on it pointing in the opposite direction as the DirecTV dish...


Does anyone know what kind of Off Air Antenna I have? Is it any good? I am guessing its not worth the $50 that direcTV charged me for it.


Any suggestions on what I can do to get this channel in would be greatly appreciated!!!!


Thanks,


J


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *terminaldawn* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I appologize for this post because I really am clueless when it comes to OFF Air Attena HD terminology...
> 
> 
> I just got a DirecTV HD TiVo installed with an Off Air Antenna and I am having trouble getting the WB (Channel # 18-1) in Milwaukee, WI. I get all other channels but 18-1. I was told that UPN (24-1) is broadcasted from the same tower, and I get that. So if that is true then I should be getting 18-1. I have no idea what kind of antenna it is that I have, its sitting next to the directv dish and it looks like a cake cooling rack LOL with two cross things on it pointing in the opposite direction as the DirecTV dish...
> 
> 
> Does anyone know what kind of Off Air Antenna I have? Is it any good? I am guessing its not worth the $50 that direcTV charged me for it.
> 
> 
> Any suggestions on what I can do to get this channel in would be greatly appreciated!!!!
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> J



It sounds like you have a double bow-tie antenna which is an OK small UHF antenna. To do better would take a bigger antenna. WVTV on the fcc website is listed as operating at a temporary STA level of 18.9 KW with a construction permit for 850KW. I don't know if the construction is complete yet, you could ask for the status on your local forum.


----------



## Bluestraw

Sorry to repeat myself, but I found a better way to show the Antennaweb results :


I'm hoping someone could help me with this... I want to set up a HDTV receiver, but I really can't get a rooftop antenna installed







Does anyone know if I could get an internal setup working perhaps?


My AntennaWeb results are below. I'm not too far from these stations, so is there a hope to get this without an external antenna? I don't want to invest in all the equipment just to find it isn't going to work!


 

http://img159.imageshack.us/my.php?image=antenna2fq.jpg 


Thanks!!


----------



## holl_ands

It's just a blur to me....


----------



## holl_ands

Must be Global Warming, looks like you're all under water.

Otherwise congradulations....as you can see, it really isn't all that difficult.


Under PICTURE PROPERTITIES, click on RAINBOW-COLORS to change elevation colors.

I usually use ABSOLUTE vs RELATIVE and chose elevation settings and colors to emphasize terrain of interest.

Dark Blue works good for ocean, but in order to minimize ocean "noise", I've found

I need to set the lowest scale in the 2-10 m region.


I still have some Yahoo User Group notes to go over to see if there is a "fix",

but I've found that the RAINBOW-COLOR selection under Polar Radio Coverage

apparently uses the same color definitions...so I keep resetting them back and forth.


----------



## Bluestraw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It's just a blur to me....



Not sure if that was directed to my picture - but I added a URL (as well as the original clickable image)


----------



## Demobuf

Hi all, I have looked through this forum re: OTA reception, and have not been able to really pin down if a bowtie, or a yagi antenna will work better in my situation. I currently have a small RShack yagi, that works OK, on a rotor outside my house at the roof line. I am about 30 miles away from the towers in either direction. My house is surrounded by very tall trees. Code will not allow me to install a tower.


On occasion when the wind is blowing, my signal goes in and out. I believe it has to do with the trees, and their branches.


I am thinking about upgrading to a different antenna, but I am unsure what to order.


4 or 8 bay bowtie, or a yagi with many elements.


What is the best option for reception in my situation.


Thanks


----------



## terminaldawn




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It sounds like you have a double bow-tie antenna which is an OK small UHF antenna. To do better would take a bigger antenna. WVTV on the fcc website is listed as operating at a temporary STA level of 18.9 KW with a construction permit for 850KW. I don't know if the construction is complete yet, you could ask for the status on your local forum.




THanks!


----------



## etcarroll

I think for the Hartford stations you'll need an antenna with a bit more gain. Search the forum for discussions on the CM 4228, 4221 and comparable Wineguards.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JRod0802* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I recently bought an HDTV and I want to see what kind of HD channels I can receive OTA. I have been reading a lot on these forums, and i have a specific question. I live fairly far away from any towers. I *approximately* live at 42 degrees 18'55.90" N, 72 degrees 40'04.09". Roughly On Burts Pit Road between florence rd. and clement st. Northampton, MA 01062. Most of my signals come from Springfield or Hartford. (Most of these in the red or blue color at antennaweb) I was wondering if i would be able to mount a SS-1000 on my roof with a CM-7777 preamp and have a hope to get these signals. I also was wondering if the SS-2000 (built in pre-amp) would work just as well as the SS-1000 with the CM-7777 because it costs less that way.
> 
> Thanks again for making such a great forum. I have learned a lot in the last two days (back when i didn't even know what uhf/vhf meant) and would appreciate any information. Thanks.


----------



## holl_ands

BlueStraw: Indoor antenna should work just fine since you are so close with no hills in the way.

Don't use any amplified antennas, since they will be overloaded by WCVN, which is only 3.2 miles away.


Some of the better indoor antennas are the Terk HDTVi (which has collapsible Rabbit Ears for VHF WCPO-DT),

the Silver Shadow (similiar, but no Rabbit Ears) and the usual assortment of Loops with Rabbit Ears.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Demobuf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi all, I have looked through this forum re: OTA reception, and have not been able to really pin down if a bowtie, or a yagi antenna will work better in my situation. I currently have a small RShack yagi, that works OK, on a rotor outside my house at the roof line. I am about 30 miles away from the towers in either direction. My house is surrounded by very tall trees. Code will not allow me to install a tower.
> 
> 
> On occasion when the wind is blowing, my signal goes in and out. I believe it has to do with the trees, and their branches.
> 
> 
> I am thinking about upgrading to a different antenna, but I am unsure what to order.
> 
> 
> 4 or 8 bay bowtie, or a yagi with many elements.
> 
> 
> What is the best option for reception in my situation.
> 
> 
> Thanks



You sure the wind isn't blowing the Yagi around?


The CM4228 has the advantage of spreading out the antenna bow-tie receptors both vertically and horizontally.

This means that some of the bow-tie elements may still be receiving a usable signal

when other portions of the array suffer blockage as the trees blow back and forth


If that isn't enough, a horizontally stacked array of two antennas could help.


After that, fill up the chainsaw....


----------



## ckenisell

I haven't read this entire thread so please forgive me, but many times on this forum I have seen folks send a link to a web site, where you plug in your zip code and it will tell you the HD channels you should be able to receive and the best type of antenna for receiving them. Does anyone know that link? Thanks!


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ckenisell* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I haven't read this entire thread so please forgive me, but many times on this forum I have seen folks send a link to a web site, where you plug in your zip code and it will tell you the HD channels you should be able to receive and the best type of antenna for receiving them. Does anyone know that link? Thanks!


 www.antennaweb.org


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ckenisell* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have seen folks send a link to a web site, where you plug in your zip code and it will tell you the HD channels you should be able to receive and the best type of antenna for receiving them.


 www.antennaweb.org


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You should have excellent results with the Channel Master 4221 pointed at 48 degrees. (The ones that claim to get good reception from all directions don't.) Terk is not highly regarded, as their antennas tend to perform worse than antennas available for half or even a third of the price. The 4221 is smallish (2'x4') and performs very well for UHF and hi-VHF (channels 7+.) Plus, it's not terribly expensive, doesn't "look" like an antenna, etc.
> 
> 
> Several places sell them online, or you might be able to find a local dealer who carries one.



Re K Rock XP in Miami:


Here is correct link for CM3016 combination VHF/UHF antenna:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...=&PROD=ANC3016 


Here is correct link for Terk HDTVS (i.e. W-G SquareShooter) antenna.

This is a low gain, overpriced antenna intended for urban environments,

and probably has insufficient gain in your location.
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...AT=&PROD=HDTVS 


The CM4221 4-Bay should be a good choice, and will survive high winds better than the combo VHF/UHF antennas mentioned by deconvolver.


I would normally add the CM4228 8-Bay to the list, since it provides significantly higher gain than the CM4221 for VHF channels.

However in hurricane country, it's not such a good choice.


----------



## Bluestraw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Indoor antenna should work just fine since you are so close with no hills in the way.
> 
> Don't use any amplified antennas, since they will be overloaded by WCVN, which is only 3.2 miles away.
> 
> 
> Some of the better indoor antennas are the Terk HDTVi (which has collapsible Rabbit Ears for VHF WCPO-DT),
> 
> the Silver Shadow (similiar, but no Rabbit Ears) and the usual assortment of Loops with Rabbit Ears.



Great! I took a look at that antenna, and I'm amazed it looks so small. Do you think I would get a reliable signal, or am I likely to see a lot of dropouts? Would it matter if it's 'pointing through walls' rather than by a window? This link shows my rough location, and I need to 'aim' at between 20 and 30 degrees for the ones I'm interested in - does this look okay?

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=+palme...6099&t=k&hl=en 


Sorry for all the questions - I'm pretty new to this, and I REALLY appreciate the help!! Also, I did a quick search for the Terk, and saw some bad comments - is it really good ?!!


----------



## ckenisell




> Quote:
> www.antennaweb.org



Thanks!


----------



## holl_ands

BlueStraw: Earlier, I used your antennaweb results to quickly navigate to your location (+/- a few houses).

There are no hills in the way and strong signals are coming via line-of-sight from towers less than 8 miles away,

except for (light green) PBS WPTO-DT which is 34.3 miles away.

This is ideal indoor reception distance, even if you have brick walls, etc.

Pointing out a window, or simply being close enough to pick up the leakage helps.

So does getting the antenna as high as possible (e.g. attic).


When you get to double or triple your distance, indoor antennas become more difficult.

[At 22 miles, I mounted mine 15 feet up at top of cathedral ceiling and only sometimes will I suffer dropouts.]


Yellow and green colors--should be no problem indoors.


ABC WCPO-DT in your list was red. When I was navigating antennaweb, it changed to yellow.

The FCC database says that it is only 16.3 kW, which I'm not sure is correct, since top four networks

in top 100 Nielsen DMA (your #33) were required to go to full power on 1Jul05.

Suggest you rerun it and move the location +/- a few houses and see if it changes. I've see oddball results like this before.


The only real challenge will be PBS WPTO-DT, which might offer different programs than your nearby PBS WCET-DT.


----------



## Bluestraw

holl_ands,


THANK YOU! I really appreciate that. Not so bothered about WPTO-DT - if I can get all the rest I'll be very happy







Time to buy some equipment I think!


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> except for (light green) PBS WPTO-DT which is 34.3 miles away.



Actually, the antennaweb info for WPTO-DT transmitter location is incorrect. It's from their original CP, which was for WKOI/DT tower, located between Oxford+Trenton, Ohio. WPTO analog transmits from oxford. WPTO-DT however got a CP mod a few years ago to transmit from WXIX tower in Cincinnati, and are currently operating licensed facilities from there. Don't ask me why antennaweb's info hasn't been updated on that yet, but it certianly is wrong.


You'll find correct tower corrdinates for WPTO-DT here (under the entry for 'WPTO" digital 28 licensed facilities) :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state...&slon2=&size=9 


If you notice, it's the same coordinates for WXIX :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state...&slon2=&size=9 


A couple of other possibly important considerations to think about for Bluestraw's location, given a indoor antenna is to be used as well.


#1) May be WCET-DT 34 antenna pattern(shows about a .190 relative field value in his direction judging by his antennaweb info and adjusting for about 5 degrees magnetic deviation in this area) - which is about 7.7KW ERP squirted in his direction given their current 215KW ERP STA.


Update: OOPS! I must be dyslexic tonight. 22 degree bearing(w/magnetic deviation) to WCET, subtracting +5 degree magnetic deviation for our area would be approx. 197 degree true bearing from WCET, not approx. 164 as I "calucated" above. But, as it turns out the null is relatively the same, with .193 relative field strength value given for 200 degree true bearing.


See their antenna pattern info here(again they are currently using the 215KW ERP STA, although the pattern is the same for their Full power CP and their "previous" 7.7KW ERP STA) :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state...&slon2=&size=9 


He'll still probably be able to get them OK,(we have folks in his area who have posted in our local threads they do get them fine with indoor antennas, but some of those folks have had problems with them even with big "Yagis" in the attic ....)


#2). And then there is WSTR-DT 33's Current antenna pattern - Not as significant a null in his direction at approx. .502 relative field value in his direction, but they're running a 17.1KW ERP STA currently. So, (.502x.502) X 17,100 watts = about 4.3 KW ERP squirted in his direction.


Update: I was dyslexic with this one, too, but this time things are a little better. 15 degrees to WSTR tower from Bluestem's place, correct for +5 degree deviation would be approx 190 degree bearing from WSTR's "star tower". No pattern rotation shown on FCC site, and a .688 relative field value shown for 190 degree true bearing from their tower ... (.688x.688)x 17,100 watts = 8.1 KW ERP sent in Bluestem's direction ...


also, That's of course assuming the antenna patterns shown on FCC site matches real world results .... It should (more or less), but I wouldn't necessarily count on it, although viewers experiences who are in the "nulls" of these antenna patterns seem to correspond well with the patterns shown on FCC site. For instance, WSTR-DT's biggest null sends 572 WATTS towards the SE of their tower(at 130 degrees), and I've yet to see any reports from anyone in that direction be able to receive them, even though there are quite populated areas of Cincinnati metro area in that direction ....


WSTR info from FCC site here (currently using 17.1KW ERP STA) :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state...&slon2=&size=9 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The FCC database says that it is only 16.3 kW, which I'm not sure is correct, since top four networks in top 100 Nielsen DMA (your #33) were required to go to full power on 1Jul05.
> 
> .



16.3KW ERP is correct for WCPO-DT, and is their Full power allocation. In fact, their full power allocation from FCC was 13.7KW ERP, they were recently able to "maximize" their signal to 16.3KW ERP. 4 It takes much less power on VHF to cover the service area than would be the case with UHF, although most hi-VHF full power DTV allocations are in the 30~60KW'ish range. However, in this particular case, there is also WBNS 10 Columbus, Ohio Service area that I suspect was likely an issue in their "full power" allocation from FCC. WBNS +WCPO towers are only 97 miles apart, both stations are running non-directional antenna patterns and both stations have service areas approximately 55~60 mile radius .....

[/quote]



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> WPTO-DT, which might offer different programs than your nearby PBS WCET-DT.
> 
> .



They are different -- different programming/different SD multicast service, Different PBS HD schedule(WCET-DT/CET/PBS now runs PBS HD channel 24/7, WPTO-DT/ThinkTV runs PBS HD programming on their time shifted schedule, only on Sat+Sun nights for instance. More info+links to stations websites can be found in Cincy thread.


WCVN-DT (KET/PBS), by the way also runs different programming services, and a different HD schedule per their time shifted schedule with an emphasis on HD rather than widescreen upconverted programming.


Isn't it interesting that we have THREE PBS affiliated digital stations broadcasting from towers in Cincy/N KY less than 6 miles apart, TWO of them on towers less than 2 miles apart ..... What's more, WPTO-DT's sister station, WPTD-DT 58 Dayton runs entirely different programming schedule(PBS HD nightly 6pm~6am for instance) and Since Dayton antenna farm is only about 42~44 miles from Most Cincinnati Stations. Most Dayton stations coverage area in fact reaches nearly all of Cincinnati Metro Area, Including most of it in N KY, including Ft. Mitchell.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bluestraw* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm hoping someone could help me with this... I want to set up a HDTV receiver, but I really can't get a rooftop antenna installed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone know if I could get an internal setup working perhaps?



Bluestraw -- 1st off, I must apologize for getting your location "wrong" from the map you provided link to in Cincy thread. I didn't see the Ft mitchell address info, and had seen "turkey foot rd." on the map and for some reason had "remembered" it wrongly as being East of Cincinnati instead of in N Ky.


The good news is, we've had at least one fellow in Florence with no terrain issues(and on the "hill") to the north not only have good luck with Cincinnati stations with indoor antenna, but he could pick up MOST of the Dayton stations as well with a CM4248(and preamp - he was just lucky not to have overload/IM problems I guess) in the attic .... What's nice is, both Cincinnati+Dayton market stations are in pretty much the same direction from you. YMMV of course, and I'd recommend an outdoor antenna setup if at all possible if you want to try for Dayton.


BTW, HOA's can't legally prohibit you from installing an outdoor antenna on property you control if that's the "issue" you are having. Search this forum(here or hardware area) or see info on FCC site concerning FCC's OTARD rules.


The Bad news is, a preamp would probably be a good idea for you for Dayton, but not for Cincinnati. Also, you'd have a blow torch signal from WXIX-DT 29(Fox HD Cincinnati), and a probably relatively weak signal on 1st adjacent channel WRGT-DT 30 (Fox HD Dayton), and you have to pretty much "shoot right through" WXIX's tower to get WRGT-DT. Why need two Fox stations anyway? Well, perhaps because they often have different NFL Games/etc - There were Two of them from WRGT-DT Yesterday for instance, but only a 4pm game from WXIX-DT since the bengals were playing at home(and NFL TV rules concerning home games).


If I recall correctly, the "planning factor" for the cutoff point for DTV working "properly" on 1st adjacent channels concerning the expected selectivity of DTV receivers involves a 46 db or less difference in signal levels between 1st adacent channel stations. "real world" results with any given receiver may be better or worse than that, and co-located 1st adjacent channel stations work better. Such as WCET-DT 34/WLWT-DT 35, broadcasting off the same tower, or WPTO-DT 28/WXIX-DT 29, or even WCPO 9 analog WCPO-DT 10.


----------



## jagged

I live in Brighton, Ontario, right across the lake from Rochester NY. I want to purchase a new antenna to hopefully get HDTV broadcasts from Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo and hopefully Toronto. I can get a good deal on an AntennaCraft HD1800. I've already got a rotor, a CM 7777 amplifier, and a 40' tower. I live about a half mile from the lake. Does this combo sound OK?


Thanx in advance.


----------



## adriana

hey guys i just bought the set-top box and i got to say.......... I LOVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE ITTTTT!!!! thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!! the only thing i need now is the silver sensor


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jagged* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live in Brighton, Ontario, right across the lake from Rochester NY. I want to purchase a new antenna to hopefully get HDTV broadcasts from Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo and hopefully Toronto. I can get a good deal on an AntennaCraft HD1800. I've already got a rotor, a CM 7777 amplifier, and a 40' tower. I live about a half mile from the lake. Does this combo sound OK?
> 
> 
> Thanx in advance.



I would recommend that you get a UHF only antenna (plus a VHF high antenna if you need a station broadcasting on 7-13). I would only suggest getting something like the HD1800 if you need VHF-low. Many people use a Channelmaster 4228 for its excellent UHF and not too awful VHF performance but I would suggest a big UHF Yaggi plus a separate VHF-high antenna instead because of the heavy wind load of the 4228. I have the Winegard PR-9032 UHF Yaggi and YA-1713 VHF-high Yaggi which I got from www.starkelectronic.com connected to a 7777 pre-amp (set the internal switch for two antennas) and get good results.


----------



## mvita

mgtr - Thanks for the info, appreciate it! I ended up using a similar approach, except that I placed the 28" twin-lead segment inside a piece of 1/2" PVC pipe, put caps on the ends, and drilled a couple holes in the middle of the pipe to allow the two leads to connect to a balun which hangs below. I flipped the "separate VHF" switch on the 7777 and and wired in the balun w/coax as you mention. For now, I've just attached the PVC piece horizontally to the mast of the Square Shooter with some cable ties. It's reasonably secure, though I may end up going back up there and screwing the PVC into the housing of the SS as you suggest.


The bottom line: my WESH-DT signal strength has gone from a flaky and inconsistent 65-70% to a pretty rock solid 92%. Not too bad for a few bucks in parts and a couple hours of time!


Thanks again for the help....


----------



## K Rock XP




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Re K Rock XP in Miami:
> 
> 
> Here is correct link for CM3016 combination VHF/UHF antenna:
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...=&PROD=ANC3016
> 
> 
> Here is correct link for Terk HDTVS (i.e. W-G SquareShooter) antenna.
> 
> This is a low gain, overpriced antenna intended for urban environments,
> 
> and probably has insufficient gain in your location.
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...AT=&PROD=HDTVS
> 
> 
> The CM4221 4-Bay should be a good choice, and will survive high winds better than the combo VHF/UHF antennas mentioned by deconvolver.
> 
> 
> I would normally add the CM4228 8-Bay to the list, since it provides significantly higher gain than the CM4221 for VHF channels.
> 
> However in hurricane country, it's not such a good choice.



Thanks for all the feedback guys, you've made this a lot easier.


I have a few questions before making my purchase.


I really wanna get this done with one shot try. So i was thinking of going with the

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...om=zoomC#xview 

CM4228 8 Bay


I don't think that it is that big. so i wanted to use it. but it has no mask. Any idea where i can get one?


Also wanted to ask u guys what you think about puttin it on the top of the 1st floor, or should i put it all the way on the top of the house?


Thanks!!!


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

I seem to have adjusted a big Radio Shack attic antenna as much a I can, but a couple channels still aren't quite strong enough. I'm about 45 miles away and these are 2 1000kW stations. Yet I get a 120kW station a bit better and it's more off-axis!







There is a Radio Shack amp after ~40' of RG-6. I realize that a pre-amp would be better, but this was done in '96... I don't know how much a pre-amp would cost, but probably more than I want to spend.


I was trying to figure out what else I could do inexpensively to boost my signal a bit more. I could add another UHF antenna and combine it with the other one, right? (Any splitter can be reversed?) I was wondering, since the UHF portion of the RS antenna *looks* pretty simple (it's called a Yagi/corner reflector, I believe?), could I try rigging up something myself at all? Can I put some sort of metal rods along a PVC pipe or piece of wood? (Or is it supposed to be conductive, since the RS looks like its UHF elements are touching the metal boom?) I think the elements would be half-wavelength, is that correct? And that 2 wires would be connected to a balun, etc. But I don't know about the spacing of elements or even if they are ALL wired up. Are only some ("collector" elements??) actually wired? You can have just a "straight section" without a corner reflector, right?


I'd like to make something myself for fun if it's fairly straightforward!







I don't know how much "engineering" design is needed, but it doesn't need to be that good. Just something that can pick up a bit more signal. There seem to be some real gurus here that I hoped could give some info. Thanks!


----------



## Bluestraw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Bluestraw -- 1st off, I must apologize for getting your location "wrong" from the map you provided link to in Cincy thread. I didn't see the Ft mitchell address info, and had seen "turkey foot rd." on the map and for some reason had "remembered" it wrongly as being East of Cincinnati instead of in N Ky.
> 
> 
> The good news is, we've had at least one fellow in Florence with no terrain issues(and on the "hill") to the north not only have good luck with Cincinnati stations with indoor antenna, but he could pick up MOST of the Dayton stations as well with a CM4248(and preamp - he was just lucky not to have overload/IM problems I guess) in the attic .... What's nice is, both Cincinnati+Dayton market stations are in pretty much the same direction from you. YMMV of course, and I'd recommend an outdoor antenna setup if at all possible if you want to try for Dayton.




nitewatchman,


For sure - no need to apologise!! Your help on here is above and beyond what I could have hoped for - very kind of you. At the time I posted on the Cinci thread, I hadn't even considered an internal antenna, as I didn't think this would ever work, and it was only when I started reading this antenna thread that I thought maybe it could be the best solution. Thanks for the HOA advice - in fact, I thought I'd just try an internal one at first and see how it goes, and then maybe look 'outside' and face the 'antenna on the roof' issue at a later point. For sure it sounds like the Dayton stations are (in general) better, but maybe not worth it for me just yet!


Thanks again to you, and holl_ands, for the advice. I'll let you know how I get on!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *K Rock XP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't think that it is that big. so i wanted to use it. but it has no mask. Any idea where i can get one?
> 
> 
> Also wanted to ask u guys what you think about puttin it on the top of the 1st floor, or should i put it all the way on the top of the house?



Do you mean, a "mast", not a "mask"? You can pick one up at most hardware stores. Radio Shack probably has them as well. But if you're doing an indoor install, you don't really need a "mast." Any old pipe would work, or you don't even need one if you can secure it using rope (not wire.)


Higher is better, so if you can get it up at the top of your house, that's great. But it never hurts to try it in lower locations and see how it works.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *K Rock XP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the feedback guys, you've made this a lot easier.
> 
> 
> I have a few questions before making my purchase.
> 
> 
> I really wanna get this done with one shot try. So i was thinking of going with the
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...om=zoomC#xview
> 
> CM4228 8 Bay
> 
> 
> I don't think that it is that big. so i wanted to use it. but it has no mask. Any idea where i can get one?
> 
> 
> Also wanted to ask u guys what you think about puttin it on the top of the 1st floor, or should i put it all the way on the top of the house?
> 
> 
> Thanks!!!



The good news about the 4228 is that it is not too bad for VHF-high (that you need for WSVN-DT and WPLG-DT); it is about as good as rabbit ears for WSVN-DT. I didn't recommend a 4221 because it is a poor VHF antenna and you wanted those 2 VHF stations see: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html The 4228 is also an excellent UHF antenna so you probably don't need to mount it super high (unless a big conifer is in the way) or to use a pre-amp with it. I think it is big and ugly but if you like its looks then just make sure you give it a solid mount that can take the wind load.


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I seem to have adjusted a big Radio Shack attic antenna as much a I can, but a couple channels still aren't quite strong enough. I'm about 45 miles away and these are 2 1000kW stations. Yet I get a 120kW station a bit better and it's more off-axis!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a Radio Shack amp after ~40' of RG-6. I realize that a pre-amp would be better, but this was done in '96... I don't know how much a pre-amp would cost, but probably more than I want to spend.
> 
> 
> I was trying to figure out what else I could do inexpensively to boost my signal a bit more. I could add another UHF antenna and combine it with the other one, right? (Any splitter can be reversed?) I was wondering, since the UHF portion of the RS antenna *looks* pretty simple (it's called a Yagi/corner reflector, I believe?), could I try rigging up something myself at all? Can I put some sort of metal rods along a PVC pipe or piece of wood? (Or is it supposed to be conductive, since the RS looks like its UHF elements are touching the metal boom?) I think the elements would be half-wavelength, is that correct? And that 2 wires would be connected to a balun, etc. But I don't know about the spacing of elements or even if they are ALL wired up. Are only some ("collector" elements??) actually wired? You can have just a "straight section" without a corner reflector, right?
> 
> 
> I'd like to make something myself for fun if it's fairly straightforward!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how much "engineering" design is needed, but it doesn't need to be that good. Just something that can pick up a bit more signal. There seem to be some real gurus here that I hoped could give some info. Thanks!



Have you looked at the NTSC (analog) stations? Are they noisy or 'snowy'? Are there moving bars in the picture? These bars can be horizontal or diagonal. Generally they are moving up or down in the picture. There may be some noise (buzz) when the picture is very bright (a white background of a commercial for instance).


If it's a really big antenna and the biggest stations don't come in, you might want to try a $4.00, 6 dB pad in front of your amp. Or really splurge and get the $15 Radio Shack variable attenuator. From what you are describing, those stations are probably overloading the amp. Most of the signal meters on the digital STB's (Set Top Box) and the digital tuners in TV's give you a signal 'quality' readout, not a signal level readout. So they will read a 'low level' when actually the signal level is high. The signal quality would be low due to the amp. If this is the case, you would probably see the moving diagonal bars in an analog signal.


On the other hand, is the analogs are all snowy, then it's time to look for a new amp and, perhaps, a new antenna. But before we go through all of the permutations of antennas and amps, lets find out if you are overloaded or underloaded.


Bob Chase

KHWB-TV


----------



## K Rock XP




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The good news about the 4228 is that it is not too bad for VHF-high (that you need for WSVN-DT and WPLG-DT); it is about as good as rabbit ears for WSVN-DT. I didn't recommend a 4221 because it is a poor VHF antenna and you wanted those 2 VHF stations see: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html The 4228 is also an excellent UHF antenna so you probably don't need to mount it super high (unless a big conifer is in the way) or to use a pre-amp with it. I think it is big and ugly but if you like its looks then just make sure you give it a solid mount that can take the wind load.




Do you know of a nicer looking ANT. that can deliver as good as the 4228 or maybe even better than the 4228 (but looks nicer)?


Also i've hear you say pre amp a bunch of times. is that something that attaches to the ANT that boosts it's signal? and what part of the ANT would it go on? Maybe you have a pic that illustrates it.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *K Rock XP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do you know of a nicer looking ANT. that can deliver as good as the 4228 or maybe even better than the 4228 (but looks nicer)?



Almost no antenna on the market works better than the 4228. And looks are somewhat subjective. Maybe you'd think this looks better: http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/hd8200p.pdf


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *K Rock XP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do you know of a nicer looking ANT. that can deliver as good as the 4228 or maybe even better than the 4228 (but looks nicer)?
> 
> 
> Also i've hear you say pre amp a bunch of times. is that something that attaches to the ANT that boosts it's signal? and what part of the ANT would it go on? Maybe you have a pic that illustrates it.



The pre amp does attach near the antenna to boost the signal before the RG-6 downlead. A good one will have a lower noise figure than your HDTV receiver and will get the UHF signal before the downlead losses so the net result can be a significantly improved signal. One potential problem with an amplifier is if even one channel gets boosted too high it can ruin all of your reception. So if you have a clear shot to a strong station less than say 12 miles away a pre-amplifier is normally not recommended- but if you can use one it can help you use a smaller antenna especially for UHF. A good pre-amp that does not overload too easily is a Winegard AP-8700 (UHF & VHF combined) or AP-2870 (UHF and VHF separate). The Winegard HDP-269 (UHF & VHF combined) is even more resistant to overloading than the AP-8700 because it has less gain so it could be a good choice too. These and the Winegard AP-4700 (UHF amplification only) all have lower noise figures than most any receiver so they should improve your reception if not overloaded.


I personally like the look of a more horizontal antenna so that is why I recommended a small combo antenna with maybe a pre-amp to improve the UHF. I think that separate UHF and VHF-high Yaggis are the best looking antennas but then you would have two antennas instead of one. That configuration could be a Winegard PR-9018 or 9022 for UHF at the very top of the mast and a Winegard YA-6713 for VHF-high nearer the bottom of the mast with the PR-9018 or 9022 amplified with an AP-4700 or both UHF & VHF connected to an AP-2870. That combo without the pre-amp would have better VHF-high performance than a CM-4228 but to have UHF performance similar to a 4228 would take a PR-9032.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Almost no antenna on the market works better than the 4228. And looks are somewhat subjective. Maybe you'd think this looks better: http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/hd8200p.pdf



Of course the 4228 is only good for UHF; for VHF-high it is merely not too awful and for VHF-low it stinks. The reason the HD8200 is so huge is that it is designed to include good VHF-low performance. And by-the way I do think it looks good for the size


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *K Rock XP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do you know of a nicer looking ANT. that can deliver as good as the 4228 or maybe even better than the 4228 (but looks nicer)?
> 
> 
> Also i've hear you say pre amp a bunch of times. is that something that attaches to the ANT that boosts it's signal? and what part of the ANT would it go on? Maybe you have a pic that illustrates it.




I'd try the CM 4221 alone first. I really don't think you need the 4228 and that will be alot of wind load in Miami.


You could add a small hi band vhf like an antennacraft Y5 7-13 later if necessary and still end up with less load on the mast than a single 4228. You could even make a channel 8 or 9 dipole very easily.


I bet the 4221 will work for everything at that distance though.


I'd try without a preamp first as well. If you have alot of splits and cable run, just add an indoor line amp.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'd try the CM 4221 alone first. I really don't think you need the 4228 and that will be alot of wind load in Miami.
> 
> 
> You could add a small hi band vhf like an antennacraft Y5 7-13 later if necessary and still end up with less load on the mast than a single 4228. You could even make a channel 8 or 9 dipole very easily.
> 
> 
> I bet the 4221 will work for everything at that distance though.
> 
> 
> I'd try without a preamp first as well. If you have alot of splits and cable run, just add an indoor line amp.



I completely agree with the above approach. CM4221 should be adequate for upper (CH7-13) VHF channels.


Although C-M and W-B don't publish VHF specs for their 4-Bay antennas, Dipol does:
http://www.dipol.com.pl/kat01a.pdf 

Note that gain is in dBi vs the usual dBd (dBd = dBi - 2.15 dB).

So their 4-Bay has 8-12 dBd gain for UHF and 4-5 dB gain for our VHF CH7-13

(that's Polish CH6-11, cuz they use 8 MHz channels).


The top row are unamplified 4-Bay Reflectors, the second row are amplified as reflected in the total gain figure.

The bottom row are interesting, since they use either inductive "looping" of the elements or a whisker extension to enhance VHF operation.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'd try the CM 4221 alone first. I really don't think you need the 4228 and that will be alot of wind load in Miami.
> 
> 
> You could add a small hi band vhf like an antennacraft Y5 7-13 later if necessary and still end up with less load on the mast than a single 4228. You could even make a channel 8 or 9 dipole very easily.
> 
> 
> I bet the 4221 will work for everything at that distance though.
> 
> 
> I'd try without a preamp first as well. If you have alot of splits and cable run, just add an indoor line amp.



This is close to what I was thinking, a UHF antenna and a small VHF-high antenna. If you mount a good distribution amp like one of the Channelmaster ones (CM 3042, 3043, or 3044 depending on the number of TVs connected) near where the cable enters the house you would probably get most of the benefit of a pre-amp more cheaply (assuming the noise figure is correct). You could of course start with just the UHF antenna and add a VHF-high antenna and/or amp only if necessary. The 4221 is a better antenna than a small corner reflector UHF Yaggi; I just like the look of the Yaggi better.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I completely agree with the above approach. CM4221 should be adequate for upper (CH7-13) VHF channels.
> 
> 
> Although C-M and W-B don't publish VHF specs for their 4-Bay antennas, Dipol does:
> http://www.dipol.com.pl/kat01a.pdf
> 
> Note that gain is in dBi vs the usual dBd (dBd = dBi - 2.15 dB).
> 
> So their 4-Bay has 8-12 dBd gain for UHF and 4-5 dB gain for our VHF CH7-13
> 
> (that's Polish CH6-11, cuz they use 8 MHz channels).
> 
> 
> The top row are unamplified 4-Bay Reflectors, the second row are amplified as reflected in the total gain figure.
> 
> The bottom row are interesting, since they use either inductive "looping" of the elements or a whisker extension to enhance VHF operation.



The 4221 lacks the VHF matching so its modelled performance for channel 8 was not good.


----------



## holl_ands

I would not use any of the Channel Master Preamps 20 miles away from broadcast towers because

the dynamic range (i.e. SFDR) will be insufficient due to operating in the non-linear amplification region.


Go with one of the LOWER GAIN Winegard Preamp models, such as AP-8700/8703 or HDP-269.

This subject was discussed at length in the fol. thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...78#post6293078 


====================================================

So do you have some NEC modeling results that are better than those found on www.hdtvprimer.com? 


====================================================

FYI: If you check the next few pages in the Dipol catalog, you'll also find specs for the ATX-91 (91XG),

and what looks like a "DAT-37" and "DAT-45".


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you mount a good distribution amp like one of the Channelmaster ones (CM 3042, 3043, or 3044 depending on the number of TVs connected) near where the cable enters the house you would probably get most of the benefit of a pre-amp more cheaply (assuming the noise figure is correct). .



A line amp will also be more immune to overload that close in. The CM models you mention are available at Lowe's.


----------



## holl_ands

Line Amps and Distribution Amps do NOT have higher input overload capability than a W-G Low Gain Preamp.

If they did, we would be tie-wrapping them to the top of the antenna mast.

They also have lower sensitivity. Check the specs!!!


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> ====================================================
> 
> So do you have some NEC modeling results that are better than those found on www.hdtvprimer.com?
> 
> 
> ====================================================
> 
> FYI: If you check the next few pages in the Dipol catalog, you'll also find specs for the ATX-91 (91XG),
> 
> and what looks like a "DAT-37" and "DAT-45".



It is the hdtvprimer modelling result that I was referring to when I said the 4221 is not matched well at channel 8. I have tweaked the model for the 9032 to better match the drop in performance that Winegard shows near channel 69 with the result that lower channel gain improves because the whole curve shifted to the left. A really improved model of the 9032 would need to more accurately include the effect of the broad flat elements as well as the lengthening effect of the electrically connected conductive boom. I am not surprised by Winegard's plots of other antennas where the gain is a couple of dB too high because I think they use a ground reflection to augment their measured gains. What I don't know is if the PR-9032 really has a broad high-gain curve like Winegard shows. From the given beamwidths I expect that they just adjusted for maximum ground bounce enhancement near channel 32 and that the correct free-field curve for the 9032 would have the shape of what hdtvprimer shows just shifted to the left a bit.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> ====================================================
> 
> FYI: If you check the next few pages in the Dipol catalog, you'll also find specs for the ATX-91 (91XG),
> 
> and what looks like a "DAT-37" and "DAT-45".



I don't claim to be able to read those pages but it looks like they are showing raw gain not net gain. Many UHF antennas have pretty good raw gain for VHF-high but that doesn't mean the VSWR isn't so bad that the net gain is poor. That would be the problem for the CM 4221, DB-2 and square shooter that hdtvprimer shows poor VHF net gains for.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Line Amps and Distribution Amps do NOT have higher input overload capability than a W-G Low Gain Preamp.
> 
> If they did, we would be tie-wrapping them to the top of the antenna mast.
> 
> They also have lower sensitivity. Check the specs!!!



Most line amps have input overload numbers which are rated for say 30-40 channels or even more. Preamp ratings are usually for 2 or at most 4 channels, so you can't really compare the specs.


The line amp is designed for higher resistance to input overload and higher output capability, the preamp typically is designed for low noise. That's the main difference, really, between the two.


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Have you looked at the NTSC (analog) stations? Are they noisy or 'snowy'? Are there moving bars in the picture? These bars can be horizontal or diagonal. Generally they are moving up or down in the picture. There may be some noise (buzz) when the picture is very bright (a white background of a commercial for instance).
> 
> 
> If it's a really big antenna and the biggest stations don't come in, you might want to try a $4.00, 6 dB pad in front of your amp. Or really splurge and get the $15 Radio Shack variable attenuator. From what you are describing, those stations are probably overloading the amp. Most of the signal meters on the digital STB's (Set Top Box) and the digital tuners in TV's give you a signal 'quality' readout, not a signal level readout. So they will read a 'low level' when actually the signal level is high. The signal quality would be low due to the amp. If this is the case, you would probably see the moving diagonal bars in an analog signal.
> 
> 
> On the other hand, is the analogs are all snowy, then it's time to look for a new amp and, perhaps, a new antenna. But before we go through all of the permutations of antennas and amps, lets find out if you are overloaded or underloaded.
> 
> 
> Bob Chase
> 
> KHWB-TV



Thanks for the reply Bob.







Sorry I didn't include more information, as my question was mainly whether I could make a DIY UHF antenna for cheap. Here's my station info:

Code:


Code:


Channel          Direction    Miles    ERP (kW)
KTVI 2  (43)     105.5        43.1       1000
KMOV 4  (56)     104.6        47.1       1000
KSDK 5  (35)     101.9        44.7        838
KETC 9  (39)     110.7        43.0        125
KPLR 11 (26)     101.4        45.0       1000
KDNL 30 (31)     100.8        44.7       1000
WRBU 46 (47)     121.5        41.6        109

My antenna is at ~102 degrees. (It was at about 80 since '96 till I re-aimed a couple weeks ago, before I got the DTV receiver.) The side of the house is at ~75 degrees; so, the antenna is around 27 degrees to the right of that in the attic. The signal is coming through the [relatively steep] roof (1/2", I assume, plywood + asphalt shingles) at a lower angle than it would through the side wall (which would be closer to perpendicular, if that matters). I can't aim through the wall because of the antenna length (I think it's the 120", rated for 120/90mi VHF/UHF), the angle, and limited width (front to back of house) up there, which is basically all used now. It's in the second story attic, so about 20' off the ground. I just raised the front of it yesterday almost 3' I guess, so it's aimed upward ~10-15 degrees. Does that hurt? Well, it didn't help much anyway, though I thought it did at first last night...


Now for my channels... I don't think I'm overloaded. As far as analog channels go, VHF channels 2-11 come in about as well as expected. Before moving the antenna from the ~80 degree position, channel 9 had rolling horizontal bars, and 11 had pretty bad snow (its analog transmitter is in a different position than the digital one). Now 9 is great, and 11 only has minor/light snow. Channel 30 has always been the worst, and it's the best it's been now, with moderate snow. The picture is clear "enough" that you could watch a program and see what's going on OK, to give you an idea. It's 2190kW analog. Channel 46 looks like satellite from 20' away (5000kW). Other than very minor noise/static (2-9) or snow (11, 30) there are no other analog problems like ghosting, bars, etc.


The best digital channel is 4. It's mostly fine, worst signal is ~60% and goes as high as 90 after midnight; only rare minor breakups. 46 is next, mostly fine. 2 and 5: about the same -- signal jumping around below 50% during the day, into the 60s easily at night and basically as stable then as 4. 11 and 30 are the ones I'm having trouble with. They don't go higher than 40% during the day, even down to 0 every few seconds and don't come in. They're in the 50s at night (couple hours after sunset), but have too much breakup to be watchable. Sometimes they'll be fine for a couple minutes. I can't get channel 9 at all, but I didn't necessarily expect to (I'd LIKE to however). It jumps from 0 to ~30% in 1 or 2 second intervals. One time last week during late night/early morning, it did get into the high 40s for me to see mostly a full picture for a short time.


It sure seems weird that I get 46 so well at 1/9 the power.







I could probably aim another UHF antenna through the side wall if that would be better. But like I said/asked, I don't know if I can make my own.


----------



## K Rock XP




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Of course the 4228 is only good for UHF; for VHF-high it is merely not too awful and for VHF-low it stinks. The reason the HD8200 is so huge is that it is designed to include good VHF-low performance. And by-the way I do think it looks good for the size



whats ment by the VHF low?


----------



## K Rock XP




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Of course the 4228 is only good for UHF; for VHF-high it is merely not too awful and for VHF-low it stinks. The reason the HD8200 is so huge is that it is designed to include good VHF-low performance. And by-the way I do think it looks good for the size



the HD8200 is 14 ft by 9 ft? is that right? thats a huge ant.
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/hd8200p.pdf


----------



## holl_ands

VHF-low is Channel 2-6, which is followed by FM stations and other services and VHF-high is Channel 7-13.


Although WSVM-DT amd WPLG-DT aren't the most powerful VHF stations,

bear in mind that you are only 23 miles away over flat land.

Indoor Rabbit Ears might even work for these stations.....huge VHF antenna is overkill.


I do hope that deconvolver has tongue firmly in cheek re the monster antenna....


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

I forgot to say about overloading and the amplifier -- when the amp is turned down or removed, the signal meter on the DTV receiver goes DOWN and analog channels get worse. So that should rule out overloading, shouldn't it? Also that the reception is better at night -- because signals get better then, not worse, right?


I just found the Service Area Maps on the FCC site and I'm within the area for all channels (I was surprised by how far they're supposed to go!







). *Way* within the area of the full power stations. I'm even within the area for a 63kW independent station 40 miles away... Of course it must not take into account the terrain for specific areas, but I can't SEE any hills/obstructions in the direction of the transmitters. It's wooded area all around which makes it hard to see very far, but the few closest to the house (30' away) don't look like they should be a problem. I could probably go out on the roof and take a picture to post.










The signals are obviously getting here a bit, but not with enough strength (assuming NOT overloaded), either because of the antenna, roof, or something.


----------



## dr1394

Wideband GaAsFET preamplifier kit:

http://www.g0mrf.freeserve.co.uk/432LNA.htm 


Ron


----------



## bbig119

Question: And I've posted in my local thread already, but I'd like to get more broad opinions on this.


I'm in Lansdowne PA, about 7-8 miles from all the major local antennas in Philly. I'm currently trying to get a stable OTA signal to work. Initally I was testing the waters and bought a Terk HDTVi from ratshack with full intention of returning it. I was able to lock on the majority of the channels, but saw frequent dropouts. I then discovered an old antenna on the top of the house I just moved into, and went up to try and hook it up. This antenna is rusted to the mast, and unable to be adjusted, but fortunately it appears to be aimed in generally the correct direction. I jerryrigged a coax wire to the 300 ohm ribbon wire leads from the antenna, and ok-- I saw a slight improvement but still unwatchable dropouts on almost every station.


I've heard that there is no reason why I shouldn't be able to pick up all these stations easily with an indoor antenna- the Silver Senor has been recommended and a relatively cheap $15 ratshack antenna has also been mentioned several times as being good.


I'd like to get a more stable solid signal, which I know I should be able to get without spending tons of money on a monster antenna, but I'm not sure if I should get one of these indoor antennas or look to get a new outdoor antenna to replace the old rusted monster on the roof.


Any thoughts?


Thanks


----------



## K Rock XP

i've tried a indoor ant and it didn't work. i have tons of electronics, maybe thats why. Once i ge the ant all set up i'll let you guys know.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> VHF-low is Channel 2-6, which is followed by FM stations and other services and VHF-high is Channel 7-13.
> 
> 
> Although WSVM-DT amd WPLG-DT aren't the most powerful VHF stations,
> 
> bear in mind that you are only 23 miles away over flat land.
> 
> Indoor Rabbit Ears might even work for these stations.....huge VHF antenna is overkill.
> 
> 
> I do hope that deconvolver has tongue firmly in cheek re the monster antenna....



Luckily there will probably be only about a half dozen VHF-low stations for the entire country after the digital transition and those will be located mainly in sparsely populated areas. So, the need for monster antennas is pretty much a thing of the past. The VHF portion of the HD8200 reminds me of a big antenna with a guyed mast we had on the house where I grew up so the look is kind of nostalgic for me. I though that antenna looked great when I was a kid until we had an ice storm. After that it looked kind of sad.


----------



## K Rock XP




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Luckily there will probably be only about a half dozen VHF-low stations for the entire country after the digital transition and those will be located mainly in sparsely populated areas. So, the need for monster antennas is pretty much a thing of the past. The VHF portion of the HD8200 reminds me of a big antenna with a guyed mast we had on the house where I grew up so the look is kind of nostalgic for me. I though that antenna looked great when I was a kid until we had an ice storm. After that it looked kind of sad.



Well i've come to terms with getting the 4228 8 Bay. was wondering something though. If you go to the link below u can see it only says UHF. does that mean it doens't accept VHF?

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...?PROD=ANC4228&


----------



## HDTVChallenged




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *K Rock XP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well i've come to terms with getting the 4228 8 Bay. was wondering something though. If you go to the link below u can see it only says UHF. does that mean it doens't accept VHF?




Try here for a full explaination of why the CM4228 works for VHF-hi. Scroll to the bottom of the page.


Personally, I suspect that the coupling transmission lines act as reasonable VHF-hi dipole, others think the screen has a part to play.


----------



## K Rock XP

well in my area channel 7 and 10 are VHF. Are those considered Low? And will i get a degraded signal as a result from using the 4228 8 bay?










Thanks and sorry for all the questions.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *K Rock XP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> well in my area channel 7 and 10 are VHF. Are those considered Low? And will i get a degraded signal as a result from using the 4228 8 bay?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks and sorry for all the questions.



No, 7 and 10 are transmitted digitally on channels 8 and 9 (from the last column in your antennaweb results) so they are VHF-high. I'm sorry I continued the joking about VHF-low antennas because they aren't needed by almost anyone for digital TV. The 4228 8-bay is a not-too bad antenna for VHF-high; it should be much better for that than a 4221. If you mounted rabbit ears on your roof they would probably work for your VHF channels and the 4228 is as good as or better than rabbit ears so I expect that the 4228 would be OK. It is way more UHF antenna than you need though so you could go with a smaller UHF antenna plus a small VHF-high antenna instead if you think that looks better.


----------



## MHD1080

Which Is Better Db8 Or Cm4228 Antenna?


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *K Rock XP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well i've come to terms with getting the 4228 8 Bay. was wondering something though. If you go to the link below u can see it only says UHF. does that mean it doens't accept VHF?
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...?PROD=ANC4228&



I wonder if you have an exterior wall on your second story that faces North-East. If you do then you might be able to mount the 4228 against the outside of that wall thus protecting it from the wind and also making it stand out less. Just a thought. A normal mount with a well secured strong mast should work.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MHD1080* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Which Is Better Db8 Or Cm4228 Antenna?



For VHF-high the CM 4228 is considered much better than the other 8 bay's because of the effectively continuous screen refector and the way the feed works. I think for UHF there is not that big a difference. The 4228 is a safe choice because so many on the forums have had good results with it.


----------



## MHD1080

Db8 Is Suppose To Have A 90 Degree Beam Unlike The Cm4228 Which Is Only 10 To 15 Degrees


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wideband GaAsFET preamplifier kit



Ron, thanks for the info and link. Given the supply and bias voltages, what do you estimate the signal overload to be? Added: IM Test . I think the pre-amp would need a suitable "Transient Suppressor" on the input.


BTW, You and I have conversed before about MPEG2 and Firewire. I did not realize you had an amateur radio affliction







until I saw your beam antenna pictures in the antenna pictures thread.


1001001's

WA5RMP (not active)[Click below for my dish and TV antennas]


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MHD1080* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Db8 Is Suppose To Have A 90 Degree Beam Unlike The Cm4228 Which Is Only 10 To 15 Degrees



Antennasdirect labels the DB8 as a multidirectional antenna but they are wrong. Its beamwidth is about the same as the 4228. If you could figure out a way to mount all 8 bays vertically then it would have a wider horizontal and narrower vertical beamwidth than a CM-4228 but as shown they will be about the same. I can't think of a reason to get the more expensive dB8.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I seem to have adjusted a big Radio Shack attic antenna as much a I can, but a couple channels still aren't quite strong enough. I'm about 45 miles away and these are 2 1000kW stations. Yet I get a 120kW station a bit better and it's more off-axis!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a Radio Shack amp after ~40' of RG-6. I realize that a pre-amp would be better, but this was done in '96... I don't know how much a pre-amp would cost, but probably more than I want to spend.
> 
> 
> I was trying to figure out what else I could do inexpensively to boost my signal a bit more. I could add another UHF antenna and combine it with the other one, right? (Any splitter can be reversed?) I was wondering, since the UHF portion of the RS antenna *looks* pretty simple (it's called a Yagi/corner reflector, I believe?), could I try rigging up something myself at all? Can I put some sort of metal rods along a PVC pipe or piece of wood? (Or is it supposed to be conductive, since the RS looks like its UHF elements are touching the metal boom?) I think the elements would be half-wavelength, is that correct? And that 2 wires would be connected to a balun, etc. But I don't know about the spacing of elements or even if they are ALL wired up. Are only some ("collector" elements??) actually wired? You can have just a "straight section" without a corner reflector, right?
> 
> 
> I'd like to make something myself for fun if it's fairly straightforward!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how much "engineering" design is needed, but it doesn't need to be that good. Just something that can pick up a bit more signal. There seem to be some real gurus here that I hoped could give some info. Thanks!



Wideband UHF antennas are not simple to design and construct. Yaggi designs must be de-tuned and multibay bow-ties seem simple only until you try to feed them. I would expect that if you work hard you could make an antenna almost as good as what you already have. Good UHF antennas are not expensive so why not just buy one? The 4228 is a good safe choice. A Winegard PR-9032 is even cheaper and should also work for you if it will fit and you don't put it in a dead spot. Even if turning down the gain makes things worse the front end of your amplifier could still be overloading or unstable; eliminating it and getting a better one would be a good idea. The Winegard AP-2870 is a good pre-amp with inputs for separate UHF and VHF antennas. If you have power in your attic you could also put a distribution amp like a CM-3042 in there which would be cheaper than a pre-amp.


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I forgot to say about overloading and the amplifier -- when the amp is turned down or removed, the signal meter on the DTV receiver goes DOWN and analog channels get worse. So that should rule out overloading, shouldn't it? Also that the reception is better at night -- because signals get better then, not worse, right?
> 
> 
> I just found the Service Area Maps on the FCC site and I'm within the area for all channels (I was surprised by how far they're supposed to go!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ). *Way* within the area of the full power stations. I'm even within the area for a 63kW independent station 40 miles away... Of course it must not take into account the terrain for specific areas, but I can't SEE any hills/obstructions in the direction of the transmitters. It's wooded area all around which makes it hard to see very far, but the few closest to the house (30' away) don't look like they should be a problem. I could probably go out on the roof and take a picture to post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The signals are obviously getting here a bit, but not with enough strength (assuming NOT overloaded), either because of the antenna, roof, or something.



If by worse, you mean snowier, then I'd say that you are not in amplifier overload. Attics are funny things in the land of RF. I have measured losses in three attics now and found them to be in the 15 to 20 dB range (which compares to a 60's study I once read). That's more gain than an antenna has, most of the gain of any amp that you were to use, and more gain than some amps even offer.


It sounds like you've tried to redirect the antenna at least once. If lifting the front 3' to get it pointed correctly is what it took, then no, it's not a problem. Consumer antennas are not very directional in the vertical axis. Even outside on the roof tilting them up or down 10 degrees has little effect on received level.


If you could identify the amp you have (make & model number) perhaps a few of us could figure out if there would be a chance of an improvement. I'd love to tell you to go out and spend the money on a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp to replace your present amp. But there is no guarantee that it will work any better - not by remote control from afar.


Bob Chase


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wideband UHF antennas are not simple to design and construct. Yaggi designs must be de-tuned and multibay bow-ties seem simple only until you try to feed them. I would expect that if you work hard you could make an antenna almost as good as what you already have.



What kind of work would I need to do?







Are there any sites around that have instructions? A quick Google search only turned up things about antenna theory/physics, rather than actually building something...




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If by worse, you mean snowier, then I'd say that you are not in amplifier overload. Attics are funny things in the land of RF. I have measured losses in three attics now and found them to be in the 15 to 20 dB range (which compares to a 60's study I once read). That's more gain than an antenna has, most of the gain of any amp that you were to use, and more gain than some amps even offer.



Yeah, I mean snowier.







I recently saw your 15-20dB attic attenuation stats, and thought, "Woah!"







On this HDTV Primer page (under "Additional Corrections" at the bottom) I had read only 4dB in the attic.














Any idea why the weaker 46 gets through fine?


It would probably do fine if it was moved outside (I'd probably get channel 9 if it was 15-20 dB better!). It just seems like such a pain (maybe I'm making it seem worse) to put it outside, with the mounting (and deciding where to put it to stay safe on the steep roof, etc.) and figuring out where to run the coax and grounding wire. Also, on my antenna, some of the plastic snap-in things for the VHF elements got broke while trying to weave them between the trusses in the attic, so I don't know if they'd stay in position in the wind... AND I can't find the box it came in anymore, which I think had some mounting hardware, like another support boom section that goes under the main boom.




> Quote:
> It sounds like you've tried to redirect the antenna at least once. If lifting the front 3' to get it pointed correctly is what it took, then no, it's not a problem. Consumer antennas are not very directional in the vertical axis. Even outside on the roof tilting them up or down 10 degrees has little effect on received level.



Didn't help much. And I'm sure it was the front being higher that helped, not the angle. I couldn't raise the other end because the VHF elements are almost hitting the roof where it is. Haha




> Quote:
> If you could identify the amp you have (make & model number) perhaps a few of us could figure out if there would be a chance of an improvement. I'd love to tell you to go out and spend the money on a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp to replace your present amp. But there is no guarantee that it will work any better - not by remote control from afar.



I just checked and it's the Radio Shack 15-1113B. It's from '96, but I found the manual at the RS site. The manual's specs "say" the gain is adjustable between 15-25dB and the noise figure is 6dB.


BTW, there's nearly 50' of old RG-59 from '96 with "twist-on" connectors after the amplifier. I think that looses ~3dB @ 700MHz. There's also a 3-way splitter that I tried removing with no change at all. I don't think there's any problem with the stuff after the amp, as I connected a receiver where the amp would be (so the amp was out of the loop), and had the same result as going the whole distance without the amp -- only 4 and 46 came in I believe.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HDTVChallenged* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Try here for a full explaination of why the CM4228 works for VHF-hi. Scroll to the bottom of the page.
> 
> 
> Personally, I suspect that the coupling transmission lines act as reasonable VHF-hi dipole, others think the screen has a part to play.



1. The above NEC Simulation runs show the CM4228 to have significantly higher gain than the PR8800 in the VHF region.

Also note the gain of the CM4221 4-Bay is much, much less than either 8-Bay.

Unfortunately, simulations always seem to be a pale avatar for the real thing, so...


2. Here is a link to Kerry Cozad's antenna range test, where I blew up the VHF gain curves so you can see them:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST19916 

The UHF gain for the CM4228 was well above C-M's spec numbers and the

upper VHF (CH7-13) gain was significant, although not as much as some purpose built VHF antennas.

Gain for lower VHF (CH2-6) was much less, but most combination VHF/UHF antennas don't have much gain

in this region either because they are considerably smaller than a half-wavelength.

Fortunately, free-space-loss is much less for VHF than UHF.


3. Also see bobchase's 3/28/05 outdoor vs attic antenna comparison tests:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...chmentid=35460 

and his more recent 9/24/05 post with on-air antenna comparison tests:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...chmentid=43178 

CM4228 was only a few dB less gain than the mid to best VHF antennas.


4. And another extensive on-air comparison test:
http://www.atechfabrication.com/reception_solutions.htm 


5. The big difference in construction between the CM4228 and the other 8-Bay antennas

(W-G PR8800 and A-D DB-8) is the feed structure....and a screen vs resonating reflector elements:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...oom=zoom#xview 
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/pr-8800.pdf 
http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB8_HD_Antenna.html 


The latter two antennas appear to use an RF Combiner, such as is used for Stacked Antennas.

At UHF, this results in about 0.5 dB of loss when the responses of the 4-Bay sections are

perfectly matched and even more when they are not.

At VHF, the individual 4-Bay sections are too small to have much gain and when the RF Combiner

sums them together, the result is much less than the CM4228.


From the center feed point, the CM4228 uses half-wavelength (at UHF) feeds to

each of the two 4-Bay Bowtie arrays, rather than an RF Combiner.

For VHF frequencies, the CM4228 feed lines are much less than a wavelength and indeed look more like a

center-fed dipole with huge capacity hats (the 4-Bay's) on each end, which tends to broaden the bandwidth.

Imagine one huge Bow-Tie element that is center fed and then spreads out to form a very fat dipole.


6. I have not seen any NEC Simulation data on whether connecting the CM4228's two reflector screens together

makes any difference between letting them operate independently.


I would be interested if anyone has done any runs, because today I bought a CM4228 to upgrade my son's CM4221.

[In SOCAL, Santa Ana heat winds cause temperature inversions....which result in signal difficulties....and wildfires...]


----------



## Phantom Gremlin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wideband GaAsFET preamplifier kit:
> 
> http://www.g0mrf.freeserve.co.uk/432LNA.htm
> 
> 
> Ron



Hey, that looks like fun. Good thing I've got a pick-and-place machine and an IR-reflow oven sitting in my basement. So I should have no problems assembling the kit.










Seriously, though, too bad they don't offer soldered boards. Doing SMT hand-soldering is not really my idea of fun.


On the plus side, it is simple enough to do by hand. Plus I *love* how the physical implementation matches the schematic. I work with standard cell ASICs in my day job. ASIC designers write RTL, which bears very little resemblance to the gates and wires in the final product.


----------



## MHD1080

Do You Have Any Field Tests To Show Db8 And The Cm4228 Being The Same,cause I Was Looking For A Bigger Beam Cause My 2,11,13,16,22,53 Our Betwween 301 Degrees And 315 Degrees And Don't Want To Have A Rotor


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What kind of work would I need to do?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are there any sites around that have instructions? A quick Google search only turned up things about antenna theory/physics, rather than actually building something...
> 
> 
> I just checked and it's the Radio Shack 15-1113B. It's from '96, but I found the manual at the RS site. The manual's specs "say" the gain is adjustable between 15-25dB and the noise figure is 6dB.



I know that radio amateurs build antennas so I checked the ARRL site. For only $5 more than the excellent Winegard PR-9032 antenna costs you can buy the ARRL antenna book:
http://www.arrl.org/catalog/index.ph...26+Propagation 


A 6 dB noise figure is poor for an antenna amplifier. If you switched to one of the amplifiers I listed before it would be like doubling the size of your antenna. The CM-7777 has an even lower noise factor at 2.2dB and more gain than the ones I listed but it is much more likely to overload.


----------



## MHD1080

Plus Channel 4 Sucks In A Different Location 179 Degrees


----------



## MHD1080

Either Antenna Is Going To Be Angled Up Cause I'm Behind A Hill


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MHD1080* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do You Have Any Field Tests To Show Db8 And The Cm4228 Being The Same,cause I Was Looking For A Bigger Beam Cause My 2,11,13,16,22,53 Our Betwween 301 Degrees And 315 Degrees And Don't Want To Have A Rotor



The beamwidth will be determined by the antenna design. There is no way that that antenna with the side by side bowties will have a wide beamwidth. In fact the gain of an antenna is determined by how directional the antenna is- the more directional then the more gain (with one mainlobe the gain is proportional to the reciprical of the product of the vertical and horizontal beamwidths). I have done NEC simulations of 8 bay bowties and the exact beamwidth will be determined by the center to center horizontal spacing of the bowties which is similar between the DB-8 and CM-4228. As I said before if you can figure out a way to mount all 8 bowties vertically then the horizontal beamwidth will be wider. Or you could just use a vertical stack of two CM-4221.


----------



## MHD1080

So What Is The True Beam Width For These Antenna S ? Would I Be Able To Pick Up Those Channels Up With Them Being Between 301 And 315 Degrees?


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MHD1080* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So What Is The True Beam Width For These Antenna S ? Would I Be Able To Pick Up Those Channels Up With Them Being Between 301 And 315 Degrees?



The beamwidth scales inversely with frequency so you need the real transmit channel (the last column from antennaweb.org output). I don't know the exact bowtie to bowtie horizontal spacing for the DB-8 but it looks about the same in the pictures as the CM4228. Why not use one or two vertically stacked 4221?


----------



## MHD1080

Frequency As Follows : Channel 2 = 25

Channel 11=48

Channel 13=38

Channel 16=26

Channel 22=42

Channel 53=43

Channel 4=51


----------



## MHD1080

Also What Would Be The Beam For Just One Cm4221


----------



## cagrigsby

I have a question for you guys. I plan to put my first antenna on my roof. It is new construction. The antenna is going on the side of the house where the utilities are not located. Do I run a grounding wire all the way across the house to those grounds or can I go into the basement in the same hole I'm going to drill for the antenna coax cable and attach to a water pipe in the basement which would be on the side where the electrical and CATV boxes are not. Now there is a seperate box on the side of the house where the antenna is going for a 220 volt hot tub service, is there something there I can use?


Also, what do I attach the coax and grounding wire to the house with on the drop down, I have vinyl siding and soffits.


Thanks,

Chuck Grigsby

Champaign, IL


----------



## greywolf

First, always check your local building codes as they may differ from the NEC. That's also a good time to see if there is an acceptable ground point at the tub site.


That being said, the latest NEC requirement is that if a metal water pipe is used to ground an antenna, the connection must be made within 5ft of the entry of the pipe into the building and the pipe must also be grounded to the main building ground, usually at the electrical panel, within the same 5ft.


If your building department does not okay a spot in the tub area, I'd sink an 8ft grounding rod in the area and run a 10ga copper or better grounding wire from the antenna mast to the rod. A lightning arrestor or grounding block near where the coax enters the building would then also be grounded to the rod. If you are permitted a grounding point at the tub use that instead of the rod.


If you do sink a new grounding rod it is critical that that rod be bonded to the main house ground by a 6ga or better copper wire. That wire can run around the building or through it. The NEC defines the main house ground as:


(a)The building or structure electrode system as covered in 250-50.

(b)The grounded interior metal water piping system as covered in 250-104 (a).

(c)The power service accessible means external to enclosures as covered in Section 250-92 (b).

(d)The metallic power service raceway.

(e)The service equipment enclosure, or

(f)The grounding electrode conductor or the grounding electrode conductor metal enclosures


Probably the best way to run cable on vinyl siding is with metal clips that attach to the siding with short screws. Stainless steel screws are a good idea. http://www.mjsales.net/cat2.asp?this...=263&cat2ID=18 is one site that will picture such clips. Cable ties are good for running the ground wire with the coax.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MHD1080* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also What Would Be The Beam For Just One Cm4221



Check the 4225 beamwidths here:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg5.htm 

For channel 52 it is 44 degrees wide at the 3 dB down point. So you should be able to go +/- 11 degrees with minimal loss.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MHD1080* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Db8 Is Suppose To Have A 90 Degree Beam Unlike The Cm4228 Which Is Only 10 To 15 Degrees



Just to clarify: the CM4225, CM4221 and CM3021 are all 4-Bay Bowties with Reflector Screens.

The Stark chart also shows the CM4228 8-Bay antenna.


All 8-Bay antennas will cover your fairly narrow spread of transmitter directions (301 to 315 deg is only 14 degrees).

But the beamwidths become narrower for the higher channel numbers.

You would need to align it very accurately, and periodically recheck alignment.

A strong wind could misalign the antenna, with only a few degrees of "margin".

Hence, you might want to use a rotator.


Click on CM4228 and PR8800 to see the antenna patterns calculated via NEC Simulations:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 

Unfortunately, the A-D DB-8 was not simulated, but I would expect it to have nearly the same beamwidth

for the main lobe and probably a somewhat different pattern for the sidelobes.


I posted a summary of DTV ANTENNA specs (Gain, Beamwidth, F/B Ratios), as well as comparison to NEC Simulations

and actual On-Air measurements at the end of this short thread:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1126998999 

Unfortunately, Antennas Direct choses to publish only a very limited set of ill-defined specs (Q: dBd or dBi???).

And I didn't see them publish ANY beamwidth claims for the DB-8 on their website.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What kind of work would I need to do?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are there any sites around that have instructions? A quick Google search only turned up things about antenna theory/physics, rather than actually building something...



I hope you saw my recent posts re DIY TV antennas:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...IY#post6205731 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...IY#post6213804 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...IY#post6250314 


An LPDA has the advantages of being able to cover the entire band of interest,

good VSWR, easy to use size calculator and not too hard to construct for attic use.

Making it rugged enough for outdoor use may be difficult for a first time DIY'er.

Unfortunately the Gain isn't very good and drops off for higher frequencies, when

you need it most to counteract propagation loss.


On the other hand, a high gain Yagi only has one driven element (unlike the LPDA)

and all the other elements are simple "sticks'. So it isn't too hard to build for both

attic and outdoor use. "Only" drawback is that the "standard" designs have a

very narrow bandwidth, covering only a few UHF channels.

But perhaps you could target one or two Yagis for some difficult channels and

combine it with another broadband antenna using a C-M Jointenna.


If you want to go beyond the standard designs, you will have to become an antenna designer and learn NEC.


The ARRL Handbook covers many antenna designs with details on construction,

however, only a few of them are for VHF/UHF bands.

But you will learn the basic techniques and can readily rescale the dimensions for ANY frequency of interest.


When you are done will you save any money?

Probably not, when you can buy high gain wide-band Yagi's, and CM4228 for $50 + shipping.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> I just checked and it's the Radio Shack 15-1113B. It's from '96, but I found the manual at the RS site. The manual's specs "say" the gain is adjustable between 15-25dB and the noise figure is 6dB.
> 
> 
> BTW, there's nearly 50' of old RG-59 from '96 with "twist-on" connectors after the amplifier. I think that looses ~3dB @ 700MHz. There's also a 3-way splitter that I tried removing with no change at all. I don't think there's any problem with the stuff after the amp, as I connected a receiver where the amp would be (so the amp was out of the loop), and had the same result as going the whole distance without the amp -- only 4 and 46 came in I believe.



The first Preamp dominates in determining overall sensitivity.

And any loss between it and the antenna will directly degrade the sensitivity.


I did a "what-if" exercise using my DTV_FADE_MARGIN_CALC_EXAMPLE spread sheet and found that

if you connect a CM7777 (or equal) Preamp directly to the antenna, the sensitivity (i.e. Fade Margin) should improve by over 10 dB.

Some of this is due to the Noise Figure being 3.8 dB better.

Some of this is due to moving the 2.5 dB loss in the RG-6 so that it is after the Preamp, thereby improving the Cascade Noise Figure.

I also assigned an additional 2 dB of loss to the RG-6 preceeding the R-S Preamp, due to sensitivity degradation

caused by antenna/Preamp VSWR mismatch, as was explained in the spread sheet:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1126998999


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply Bob.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's my station info:
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Channel          Direction    Miles    ERP (kW)
> KTVI 2  (43)     105.5        43.1       1000
> KMOV 4  (56)     104.6        47.1       1000
> KSDK 5  (35)     101.9        44.7        838
> KETC 9  (39)     110.7        43.0        125
> KPLR 11 (26)     101.4        45.0       1000
> KDNL 30 (31)     100.8        44.7       1000
> WRBU 46 (47)     121.5        41.6        109
> 
> My antenna is at ~102 degrees. (It was at about 80 since '96 till I re-aimed a couple weeks ago, before I got the DTV receiver.) The side of the house is at ~75 degrees; so, the antenna is around 27 degrees to the right of that in the attic. The signal is coming through the [relatively steep] roof (1/2", I assume, plywood + asphalt shingles) at a lower angle than it would through the side wall (which would be closer to perpendicular, if that matters). I can't aim through the wall because of the antenna length (I think it's the 120", rated for 120/90mi VHF/UHF), the angle, and limited width (front to back of house) up there, which is basically all used now. It's in the second story attic, so about 20' off the ground. I just raised the front of it yesterday almost 3' I guess, so it's aimed upward ~10-15 degrees. Does that hurt? Well, it didn't help much anyway, though I thought it did at first last night...
> 
> 
> Now for my channels... I don't think I'm overloaded. As far as analog channels go, VHF channels 2-11 come in about as well as expected. Before moving the antenna from the ~80 degree position, channel 9 had rolling horizontal bars, and 11 had pretty bad snow (its analog transmitter is in a different position than the digital one). Now 9 is great, and 11 only has minor/light snow. Channel 30 has always been the worst, and it's the best it's been now, with moderate snow. The picture is clear "enough" that you could watch a program and see what's going on OK, to give you an idea. It's 2190kW analog. Channel 46 looks like satellite from 20' away (5000kW). Other than very minor noise/static (2-9) or snow (11, 30) there are no other analog problems like ghosting, bars, etc.
> 
> 
> The best digital channel is 4. It's mostly fine, worst signal is ~60% and goes as high as 90 after midnight; only rare minor breakups. 46 is next, mostly fine. 2 and 5: about the same -- signal jumping around below 50% during the day, into the 60s easily at night and basically as stable then as 4. 11 and 30 are the ones I'm having trouble with. They don't go higher than 40% during the day, even down to 0 every few seconds and don't come in. They're in the 50s at night (couple hours after sunset), but have too much breakup to be watchable. Sometimes they'll be fine for a couple minutes. I can't get channel 9 at all, but I didn't necessarily expect to (I'd LIKE to however). It jumps from 0 to ~30% in 1 or 2 second intervals. One time last week during late night/early morning, it did get into the high 40s for me to see mostly a full picture for a short time.
> 
> 
> It sure seems weird that I get 46 so well at 1/9 the power.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I could probably aim another UHF antenna through the side wall if that would be better. But like I said/asked, I don't know if I can make my own.



Using the info above, I navigated to your location using antennaweb.org.

Appears to be zipcode 63357, about 5 mi NW of Marthasville, MO, in general vicinity of State Hwy CC and State Hwy 47.

I was surprised to see only two (purple) stations pop up for the same ranges and bearings as above.

However, small displacements resulted in big changes in antennaweb.


GoogleEarth appears to show you in a narrow valley, although this may be incorrect.

If you are in this valley, at your extended range, you should seriously consider moving the antenna to the roof.


If you want to remain in the attic, you might want to investigate different locations in the attic using a smaller

UHF-only antenna, such as the CM-4221 4-Bay or high gain CM-4228 8-Bay.

If this helps, you might want to combine it with the R-S Combi, using the low loss C-M 0549 UHF-VHF/FM Antenna Joiner,

so the R-S becomes a VHF/FM only antenna.


The combination of the valley and the attic will make for a very murky multipath soup,

best explaining why some stations work and others do not.


Using the LAT/LOG guestimate from GoogleEarth, I used www.2150.com/broadcast to see

if there were any nearby transmitters that might desensitize a Preamp.

There were three low power stations about 25 miles away, so they shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## bernieoc

Which is the lessor of two evils ?

1 Antenna on roof facing directly into nearby trees.

2 Antenna in attic missing nearby trees.

I now have large RS antenna on roof with ch3, 18, 30 at 47 miles 270 deg

and ch34, 20 at 23 miles 300 deg.

my reception is close to good on all - but have weather, wind, season problems.

I am thinking a better uhf (4228) and a low vhf (y5-26) in the attic missing trees.

Or should I upgrade my outdoor (hopefully without a rotator)


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bernieoc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Which is the lessor of two evils ?
> 
> 1 Antenna on roof facing directly into nearby trees.
> 
> 2 Antenna in attic missing nearby trees.
> 
> I now have large RS antenna on roof with ch3, 18, 30 at 47 miles 270 deg
> 
> and ch34, 20 at 23 miles 300 deg.
> 
> my reception is close to good on all - but have weather, wind, season problems.
> 
> I am thinking a better uhf (4228) and a low vhf (y5-26) in the attic missing trees.
> 
> Or should I upgrade my outdoor (hopefully without a rotator)



If you check earlier posts about attic losses you will see that huge losses are typical. In an attic an antenna will usually be negatively influenced by signal reflections from wiring and plumbing and anything else metal that is nearby or forward of it. There is also the possibility of almost complete shielding from things like metal foil that could be in the insulation's vapor barrier for instance. If you aim through a roof or anything that could be wet then during rainstorms there could be additional loss. There is some small possibility that If you were able to aim directly through an exterior wall with no metal anywhere except well behind (NOT in the floor underneath) the antenna then you might get OK results.


----------



## mrgreen4242

Hi everyone... I've read through a lot of this thread in the last couple days, but it is so long that I'm not sure anyone could read it all, at this point... Anyways, I'm in a bit of a dilemma... I live on the third floor of an apartment building. I have a balcony, but it's on the north side of the building. According to antennaweb.org all my digital transmitters are to my south, southeast, and southwest (figures... everything is south, I'd have just got a dish if I was facing that way!) The stations I am mostly interested in are to the south. (I'll post the antennaweb results at the bottom).


Anyways, being in an apartment I am going to have to go with an indoor antenna. There are no tall buildings in my area, and it's pretty flat from here to the antenna's. There is a small patch of tall trees on the north side of the building, not a forrest, but also not just one tree.


UHF is my only concern at this point, I will have moved by the time I need to worry about any of these channels moving back to VHF. I am looking at either a Silver Sensor or a DB-2 antenna. My question is, based on these factors (indoors, third floor, no windows to the south) and my antennaweb results, what are the odds of me getting any decent reception, which antenna would be best for me, and will an amp or pre-amp help me at all?


(These are the results from antennaweb, zip code 48837, saying no to "the question", and selecting "multiple story" from the list. I've filtered for only digital stations and also removed the furthest away stations)


PHP Code:


Code:


[CODE]*\tyellow - uhf\tWZPX-DT\t43.1\ti\tBATTLE CREEK\tMI\t\t260°\t16.7\t44 *\tyellow - uhf\tWLNS-DT\t6.1\tCBS\tLANSING\tMI\t\t107°\t19.3\t59 *\tyellow - uhf\tWSYM-DT\t47.1\tFOX\tLANSING\tMI\t\t171°\t19.8\t38 *\tyellow - uhf\tWLAJ-DT\t53.1\tABC\tLANSING\tMI\t\t158°\t25.2\t51 *\tgreen - uhf\tWHTV-DT\t34\tUPN\tJACKSON\tMI\tTBD\t158°\t25.2\t34 *\tred - uhf\tWILX-DT\t10.1\tNBC\tONONDAGA\tMI\t\t162°\t22.7\t57 *\tblue - uhf\tWKAR-DT\t23.1\tPBS\tEAST LANSING\tMI\t\t105°\t17.3\t55 

[/CODE]
Thanks a ton... I'm working on getting a cheap OTA tuner from the Radio Shack clearance right now, I'm sure I will use it eventually, but hopefully you folks can get me started on the right path.


PS I was looking at my building earlier and noticed that there is a huge antenna on top of it. I have no idea how to get a signal from it, though. I assume that it was wired up there before the building was connected to the cable system... I'm going to inquire about it tomorrow, but since there is only one incoming RF jack in my place I assume everything has been rerouted to the cable interface box, which I need to stay on for internet service.


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

holl_ands, thanks for your info/time/answers/etc! Sorry, now that you mentioned your posts about DIY antennas, I do vaguely remember seeing them after I joined and wasn't really paying attention.







A couple links in your posts helped, and I think I better try to make what I have work, or just buy something else if necessary. Also, thanks for the pre-amp calculations, I'll definitely keep that in mind!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Using the info above, I navigated to your location using antennaweb.org.
> 
> Appears to be zipcode 63357, about 5 mi NW of Marthasville, MO, in general vicinity of State Hwy CC and State Hwy 47.



You sure did!







Haha, I knew that could be done though... I was going to send you my actual coordinates, but it looks like you have PM's disabled. I'll just post them here and can remove them in a few days or something. From Google Maps/Satellite: . I tried to use Google Earth after you mentioned it, but it just goes gray when it zooms in.







I guess my video card is too old (tried on Voodoo3, V5 in another system that I can't try now), although I can see the Earth when it's zoomed out far enough...




> Quote:
> I was surprised to see only two (purple) stations pop up for the same ranges and bearings as above.
> 
> However, small displacements resulted in big changes in antennaweb.



They are all purple when set to my location (and no digitals). Yeah, the results do change a lot when moved like only 1/4 mile.




> Quote:
> GoogleEarth appears to show you in a narrow valley, although this may be incorrect.



Does it if you use my actual location? I can't tell for sure from here like I said earlier, I just know there are hills in the opposite direction of the stations.




> Quote:
> If you are in this valley, at your extended range, you should seriously consider moving the antenna to the roof.
> 
> 
> If you want to remain in the attic, you might want to investigate different locations in the attic using a smaller
> 
> UHF-only antenna, ...
> 
> 
> The combination of the valley and the attic will make for a very murky multipath soup,
> 
> best explaining why some stations work and others do not.



I really don't want to bother moving it to the roof, especially because we're supposed to be moving sometime.







If I'm in a valley (very deep?), what do you think about lower power WRBU-46 coming in better than half the others (basically), and it's almost 20 degrees off-axis (which loses a few dB, correct?)? If you can tell with Google Earth, does it look like there's a lot better path, terrain- or obstruction-wise, between me and the 121 deg. direction vs. the 101-105 ones? But remember, KMOV-4 gets here from 104.6!


Otherwise, I'm wondering if there's a problem with the current attic position and something blocking or interfering with signals. Because of maneuverability, the antenna hasn't been moved other than raising the front. It's hard to explain, but it's at the east end of the attic now, almost aiming at where aluminum fascia is outside. But that only goes down a couple feet from the peak on the south side (there are "staggered" peaks), so I *think* it's to the left of where the antenna is pointing (but probably within 2-3' of the antenna iself). I'm not sure what kind of flashing, etc. there might be where the fascia meets roof again or how I'm aimed in regards to that. deconvolver just mentioned "metal that is nearby," so I wonder... and obviously the 121 deg. signal would "clear" any of this more -- only coming through the roof, I think.


I've been using the Triangle Angle Calculator for my angle measurements, and since I was wondering if it's a problem that the 101 deg. signal comes through the roof at a lower angle, I tried to calculate how much roof the signals pass through from the different directions. I said the side of the house is at ~75 deg., so the 101 signal comes through the the roof @ 26 degrees. So with a 1/2" of roof, horizontally the signal would go through ~1.1". The 121 is 46 deg. through the roof, so 0.7". Then, I think the roof has an 8/12 pitch, so ~34 degrees, meaning 0.9" to go through on the other axis (?). If my calculating is correct (who knows!!), combining them gives ~1.4" and 1.1" to pass through for 101 and 121 degree signals, respectively. That difference probably doesn't affect much, does it?


BTW, you mentioned "multipath soup," but I see absolutely NO ghosting or anything on the analog channels.


----------



## nsayer

I need to install a preamp, but the problem is I have a BMS-58 mounted outdoors, which does not pass DC to the antenna input. So I have a couple questions:


1. How forgiving are typical preamps about voltage variation? The best preamp I have tried (and I've tried half a dozen) has turned out to be the Terk BIA-20. It uses satellite receiver voltage, which can be either 12 or 18 volts. The BMS-58 uses 24 volts. If I were to feed the 24 volts to the BIA-20, would it still work?


2. Where can I get an outdoor-safe power injector? One way or another I'm going to need to input the power _after_ the BIA-20, and it's outdoors, so it needs to be outdoor safe.


3. Would it work to use two power injectors - one on the antenna input side of the BMS-58 and the other on one of the outputs and simply connect the DC "inputs" on both with a wire? Would this make an acceptable DC bypass without inducing too much loss?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nsayer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I need to install a preamp, but the problem is I have a BMS-58 mounted outdoors, which does not pass DC to the antenna input. So I have a couple questions:
> 
> 
> 1. How forgiving are typical preamps about voltage variation? The best preamp I have tried (and I've tried half a dozen) has turned out to be the Terk BIA-20. It uses satellite receiver voltage, which can be either 12 or 18 volts. The BMS-58 uses 24 volts. If I were to feed the 24 volts to the BIA-20, would it still work?
> 
> 
> 2. Where can I get an outdoor-safe power injector? One way or another I'm going to need to input the power _after_ the BIA-20, and it's outdoors, so it needs to be outdoor safe.
> 
> 
> 3. Would it work to use two power injectors - one on the antenna input side of the BMS-58 and the other on one of the outputs and simply connect the DC "inputs" on both with a wire? Would this make an acceptable DC bypass without inducing too much loss?



The spec sheet for the Terk BMS-58 Multiswitch (TV+4 LNBs to 8 Outputs) says that the TV input goes

through a built in Low Noise Preamp before going to the 8 outputs, with a typical insertion loss of 4.5 dB.

It also says "it features a DC pass capability allowing it to be used with amplified antennas that require DC power via a coaxial cable".


So, it is designed to feed DC power to a mast head Preamp.

Unfortunately, it doesn't say what voltage level, so grab a meter and measure it to make sure what you're dealing with.


FYI: If you decide to go with one of the well known Preamps (C-M and W-G),

then make sure the BMS-58 output voltage is compatible with the Preamp.

And yes, you could use a DC Power Insertion Module between the BMS-58 and a mast head Preamp, just doublecheck connections.

DC goes to the mast head Preamp and a blocking capacitor prevents DC from one device from being applied to the other (and vice versa).


I've seen some Preamps that use a wall-plug AC/DC power converter that can be mounted indoors and a

separate Power Insertion "TEE" Module that can be mounted outside since it operates at low level DC voltage.



VERY IMPORTANT: When you cascade Preamps, the high level signal from the mast head Preamp WILL DESENSITIZE

if not OVERLOAD the low noise Preamp in the BMS-58. Insert a R-S Variable RF Attenuator on the BMS-58's TV input.


----------



## nsayer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The spec sheet for the Terk BMS-58 Multiswitch (TV+4 LNBs to 8 Outputs) says that the TV input goes
> 
> through a built in Low Noise Preamp before going to the 8 outputs, with a typical insertion loss of 4.5 dB.
> 
> It also says "it features a DC pass capability allowing it to be used with amplified antennas that require DC power via a coaxial cable".



Lies.



> Quote:
> Unfortunately, it doesn't say what voltage level, so grab a meter and measure it to make sure what you're dealing with.



Turns out that voltage is 0.










I even e-mailed their tech support department and they confirmed that it won't supply or pass DC on the antenna input.


Don't feel bad - I thought I saw this on the spec sheet as well. I think the amplifier amplifies the DBS portion of the signal, since the insertion loss on the satellite side is unity (0 db). 4.5 db on the antenna side would be about right, it seems to me, for a simple 8 way splitter.


----------



## greywolf

It was established here a while back that there is no power at the antenna input. There is some amplification of the Ant input though as passive splitters would lose ~11db at any output.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nsayer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Lies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turns out that voltage is 0.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I even e-mailed their tech support department and they confirmed that it won't supply or pass DC on the antenna input.
> 
> 
> Don't feel bad - I thought I saw this on the spec sheet as well. I think the amplifier amplifies the DBS portion of the signal, since the insertion loss on the satellite side is unity (0 db). 4.5 db on the antenna side would be about right, it seems to me, for a simple 8 way splitter.



Sounds like to me your best option is a separate downlead for the antenna and to bypass the multiswitch altogether.


----------



## nsayer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sounds like to me your best option is a separate downlead for the antenna and to bypass the multiswitch altogether.



Yeah, except that I'd need to split it at least 4 ways and run 4 more pieces of coax under the house to spots where coax is already going. I am highly motivated to make this work.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nsayer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yeah, except that I'd need to split it at least 4 ways and run 4 more pieces of coax under the house to spots where coax is already going. I am highly motivated to make this work.



You could use the separate downlead simply to inject the power through a power injector or a hi-lo separator (if you don't need channels 2-6), then you wouldn't need to run anymore line, but you'd still have the signal passing through the multiswitch.


----------



## nsayer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You could use the separate downlead simply to inject the power through a power injector or a hi-lo separator (if you don't need channels 2-6), then you wouldn't need to run anymore line, but you'd still have the signal passing through the multiswitch.



I actually am thinking of something close.


I already have a coax supplying +24VDC to the BMS-58. I could make a custom T, possibly with an additional voltage regulator, to break out that voltage to an injector on the antenna side of the BMS-58.


But that begs the questions of the insertion loss of a power injector, and where to get "bare" power injectors.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nsayer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I actually am thinking of something close.
> 
> 
> I already have a coax supplying +24VDC to the BMS-58. I could make a custom T, possibly with an additional voltage regulator, to break out that voltage to an injector on the antenna side of the BMS-58.
> 
> 
> But that begs the questions of the insertion loss of a power injector, and where to get "bare" power injectors.



Run the separate downlead from somewhere dry inside with AC power access. That will supply DC to the power pass port (SAT) of a TV/SAT diplexer on the mast and then on to the amp. Then bring the signal out from the TV out (now amplified) port back to the ANT IN on the multiswitch.


TV/SAT diplexer with DC pass on SAT port: http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf 


You could also use the HLSJ the same way with the DC going through the LOW port but you would only end up with channels 7 and above. This actually can be an advantage if you want to get rid of FM and lo band.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nsayer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Lies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turns out that voltage is 0.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I even e-mailed their tech support department and they confirmed that it won't supply or pass DC on the antenna input.
> 
> 
> Don't feel bad - I thought I saw this on the spec sheet as well. I think the amplifier amplifies the DBS portion of the signal, since the insertion loss on the satellite side is unity (0 db). 4.5 db on the antenna side would be about right, it seems to me, for a simple 8 way splitter.



In order to split the TV signal 8 ways, the signal would go through a TV Preamp, then a 2-way splitter (3.5 to 4 dB loss)

and then each splitter port would go through a 4-way splitter (7 to 8 dB loss) and then 8 Diplexers (0.5 dB) to combine

it with each of the 8 outputs. That's a total loss of about 12 dB.

So the TV Preamp inside the BMS58 must only have a gain of about 8 dB.


If you are going to jury rig your own 24 VDC bypass, you would also need to use some inductors to block

the RF signal on an ACTIVE Multiswitch output from being shorted out in the bypass itself and a zener to drop the voltage.

If you are puzzled by this, you shouldn't design a 24 VDB bypass.


I suppose it would be possible to fabricate your own power insertion "TEE",

using a small WEATHERPROOF box with

three F-connectors and feeding the "ANTENNA" output of a W-G or C-M in-line type Power Module to the "TEE".

A capacitor should be inside the "TEE" box to block DC power to the BMS58 and the DC input

should go through an inductor before it is connected to the coax signal.


======================================================

Instead, look at the following Preamp that includes a separate "TEE" power insertion module that can be

used outdoors, with the wall-mount AC/DC power module inside:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...T=&PROD=CM3039


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ======================================================
> 
> Instead, look at the following Preamp that includes a separate "TEE" power insertion module that can be
> 
> used outdoors, with the wall-mount AC/DC power module inside:
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...T=&PROD=CM3039



This is just the el cheapo CM preamp. There is nothing different other than the DC is supplied via a wall-wart instead of the beefier PS on the upper range models. The TEE still must go inside and the DC goes up the coax as usual.


FYI the CM preamps will operate fine on DC from +12 to +24 Volts.


----------



## insurancepi

have learned the following, that I can pick up 5 OTA channels. In addition, the compass Orientation from my house only varies from 240 degrees to 245 degrees with each channel. Also these channels are all UHF and the distance from the broadcast sites to my house range from 18 to 28 miles. My question is this, I was thinking of putting an antenna in my attic, will a directional antenna work and what size should I get, or will in indoor antenna work. I am in Jackson, MS and will have to purchase the antenna at Radio Shack or Best Buy, Circuit City. Please give my you opinions. Thanks.


----------



## ctdish

I have had this preamp for a while: http://www.researchcomms.com/hdtv.html and finally installed it at the antenna replacing a Winegard AP-4700. It has a specified noise figure of 0.4dB. It made a noticeable improvement with signal qualities going up from 5 to 15 points on weak stations. As far as overload goes, in one direction I have one strong station at 13 miles running one megawatt WPXQ-DT. I see no sign of overload on a spectrum analyzer or on analog stations from it. In a different direction I have two strong stations at 11.5 miles WHPX analog and digital running 2.8 Meg and 90KW. I can see strong intermodulation products all over the UHF TV band on the spectrum analyzer and sync bars on analog station on the TV. John


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *insurancepi* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> have learned the following, that I can pick up 5 OTA channels. In addition, the compass Orientation from my house only varies from 240 degrees to 245 degrees with each channel. Also these channels are all UHF and the distance from the broadcast sites to my house range from 18 to 28 miles. My question is this, I was thinking of putting an antenna in my attic, will a directional antenna work and what size should I get, or will in indoor antenna work. I am in Jackson, MS and will have to purchase the antenna at Radio Shack or Best Buy, Circuit City. Please give my you opinions. Thanks.



What does www.antennaweb.org suggest?


----------



## PhracturedBlue

Just a followup. I just installed a CM4228 (to replace to 3016) as recommended here.

When pointed at the transmitters, all signals improved, and I get a very good signals on all channels except 27 (KOPB) which is the one I really want.

When I reversed the antenna, and point away fro the transmitters, KOPB gets a decent lock (just like it did with the 3016).


The 4228 gave me about 2db and 20% signal-quality improvemnt for KOPB when pointing away from the transmitters, but all other channels are worse than they were with the 3016.


When pointing at the transmitters, all channels are better, (about 20-30% signal quality, 2-3db SNR) but I still can't get a solid lock on KOPB (as I mentioned above)


If I only had one receiver, an antenna-rotor would prbably be the solution, but that won't work with my (planned) dual receivers.


I ordered a CM7775 as well, and it should come in next week, so we'll see how things look after I install it.

Also, my coax is currently ~40ft of RG-59, which I'll be replacing with RG-6 once the pre-amp comes in. As my signal-strength is at 100% on all channels now, i may need an attenuator as well


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> I tried to use Google Earth after you mentioned it, but it just goes gray when it zooms in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess my video card is too old (tried on Voodoo3, V5 in another system that I can't try now), although I can see the Earth when it's zoomed out far enough...
> 
> *[GoogleEarth is also a big memory hog and really needs to be on a fast connection.]*
> 
> 
> They are all purple when set to my location (and no digitals). Yeah, the results do change a lot when moved like only 1/4 mile.
> 
> *[Your revised location pulls up the same antennaweb results now...give or take a few hundred yards inaccuracy inherent in both antennweb and GoogleEarth.]*
> 
> 
> Does it if you use my actual location? I can't tell for sure from here like I said earlier, I just know there are hills in the opposite direction of the stations.
> 
> *[Although you still have hills behind you that can cause a backscatter bounce,
> 
> you aren't buried in a valley like I thought you were earlier.
> 
> Much better....esp. since you do not see multipath on analog channels.]*
> 
> 
> I really don't want to bother moving it to the roof, especially because we're supposed to be moving sometime.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I'm in a valley (very deep?), what do you think about lower power WRBU-46 coming in better than half the others (basically), and it's almost 20 degrees off-axis (which loses a few dB, correct?)? If you can tell with Google Earth, does it look like there's a lot better path, terrain- or obstruction-wise, between me and the 121 deg. direction vs. the 101-105 ones? But remember, KMOV-4 gets here from 104.6!
> 
> *[The 101-105 arrival direction passes over a hill that is closer to you than the 120 direction, which would cause some signal strength difference.
> 
> However, different frequency signals will always have different strong and weak areas within your attic....or even outdoors.]*
> 
> 
> Otherwise, I'm wondering if there's a problem with the current attic position and something blocking or interfering with signals. Because of maneuverability, the antenna hasn't been moved other than raising the front. It's hard to explain, but it's at the east end of the attic now, almost aiming at where aluminum fascia is outside. But that only goes down a couple feet from the peak on the south side (there are "staggered" peaks), so I *think* it's to the left of where the antenna is pointing (but probably within 2-3' of the antenna iself). I'm not sure what kind of flashing, etc. there might be where the fascia meets roof again or how I'm aimed in regards to that. deconvolver just mentioned "metal that is nearby," so I wonder... and obviously the 121 deg. signal would "clear" any of this more -- only coming through the roof, I think.
> 
> 
> I've been using the Triangle Angle Calculator for my angle measurements, and since I was wondering if it's a problem that the 101 deg. signal comes through the roof at a lower angle, I tried to calculate how much roof the signals pass through from the different directions. I said the side of the house is at ~75 deg., so the 101 signal comes through the the roof @ 26 degrees. So with a 1/2" of roof, horizontally the signal would go through ~1.1". The 121 is 46 deg. through the roof, so 0.7". Then, I think the roof has an 8/12 pitch, so ~34 degrees, meaning 0.9" to go through on the other axis (?). If my calculating is correct (who knows!!), combining them gives ~1.4" and 1.1" to pass through for 101 and 121 degree signals, respectively. That difference probably doesn't affect much, does it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, you mentioned "multipath soup," but I see absolutely NO ghosting or anything on the analog channels.



[Hunt and peck is the only way I know to find a "sweet" spot.

Avoid "looking" through metal and electrical wiring as much as possible,

which may require raising or lowering the antenna.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PhracturedBlue* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just a followup. I just installed a CM4228 (to replace to 3016) as recommended here.
> 
> When pointed at the transmitters, all signals improved, and I get a very good signals on all channels except 27 (KOPB) which is the one I really want.
> 
> When I reversed the antenna, and point away fro the transmitters, KOPB gets a decent lock (just like it did with the 3016).
> 
> 
> The 4228 gave me about 2db and 20% signal-quality improvemnt for KOPB when pointing away from the transmitters, but all other channels are worse than they were with the 3016.
> 
> 
> When pointing at the transmitters, all channels are better, (about 20-30% signal quality, 2-3db SNR) but I still can't get a solid lock on KOPB (as I mentioned above)
> 
> 
> If I only had one receiver, an antenna-rotor would prbably be the solution, but that won't work with my (planned) dual receivers.
> 
> 
> I ordered a CM7775 as well, and it should come in next week, so we'll see how things look after I install it.
> 
> Also, my coax is currently ~40ft of RG-59, which I'll be replacing with RG-6 once the pre-amp comes in. As my signal-strength is at 100% on all channels now, i may need an attenuator as well



If you can't get KOPB with the same antenna pointing as your other channels then you could try using two antennas pointed different ways with a Channelmaster join-tenna from www.warrenelectronics.com to connect them together.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have had this preamp for a while: http://www.researchcomms.com/hdtv.html and finally installed it at the antenna replacing a Winegard AP-4700. It has a specified noise figure of 0.4dB. It made a noticeable improvement with signal qualities going up from 5 to 15 points on weak stations. As far as overload goes, in one direction I have one strong station at 13 miles running one megawatt WPXQ-DT. I see no sign of overload on a spectrum analyzer or on analog stations from it. In a different direction I have two strong stations at 11.5 miles WHPX analog and digital running 2.8 Meg and 90KW. I can see strong intermodulation products all over the UHF TV band on the spectrum analyzer and sync bars on analog station on the TV. John



Hi John. How does the overloading of the Research Communications pre-amp compare to what you had with the AP-4700?


----------



## ctdish

John,

As near as I can tell it is about the same. John


----------



## mgtr

insurancepi-

I have a somewhat similar circumstance, and found that a CM 4228 mounted upside down from the highest point in the attic works extremely well. Bear in mind that a preamp might be required if you run an extraordinary amount of RG-6. In my setup, I have about 50 feet and have not needed the preamp.


----------



## deconvolver

Thanks to www.hdtvprimer.com models of many popular antennas including the Channelmaster 4228 are available for analysis. On the hdtvprimer web site that antenna is modelled as having one continuous screen. To see the effect of having one versus two separate screens I changed the model to separate the screens by 0.2 inches. I have enclosed plots of the resulting horizontal beampatterns for VHF channels 8, 10, and 12. It is interesting that splitting the screen yields worse performance for channels 10 and 12 but better performance for channel 8. The antenna impedance was also affected by splitting the screen. The original values for the three channels were respectively: 12.5-j145, 122-j6.5, and 153+j273. With the split screen the impedances were: 12.7-j159, 37.1-j10, and 117+j242. So we can see that the net gain will be much worse for channel 10 with a split screen than a continuous one.


----------



## kflorek

cagrigsby,


> Do I run a grounding wire all the way across the house to those grounds...?


If some one decides to sink a ground rod, here is a tip that I ran across years ago, as I remember it, when I was into shortwave listening, which also uses antennas and grounds.


Driving a 5/8 inch rod 8 feet into the ground with a hammer can be difficult. Instead, you can have water do the work. Get a 1/2 inch copper pipe (it is 5/8 outside diameter.) With a hose clamp, clamp a few feet of 5/8 water hose remnant to the pipe and attach that to your water hose with a cheap plastic shutoff so you can control the water. Shove the pipe a foot or so into the ground, and put the water on just a little. You don't want a flood or gusher when you are that near surface. Later, putting the water on full for a while will get you past spots where the resistance stops you. You can push the pipe easily 8 or 12 feet into the ground.


If you hit a rock, you are probably out of luck whether you use a hammer or water drilling. But try to extract a rod hammered deep in the ground! You can get the water-drilling pipe out about as easily as it went in.


Now here's my experience. My 1957-built house uses a water pipe for the service entrance ground, which pipe runs about 40 feet before it gets to the outside. That does not seem like such a great idea with respect to lightning. I bought an 8 foot ground rod from Home Depot ($15), just because that seems to be what is generally used. I believe pipe also complies with NEC, although I don't know the details. I shoved the rod about 2 1/2 feet into the ground by just pushing and pulling the rod up and down. The dirt, or whatever, suddenly got super hard, making me chicken-out about hammering, so I switched to water drilling. I happended to have everything I needed, except for a metal pipe. All I had was 9 feet of left-over 1/2 inch CPVC water pipe. This plastic pipe is not much more rigid than a noodle. But it worked fine, like pushing through butter. You just have to push firmly on it close to ground, and take care that it doesn't flex excessively, and don't overdo the force. Putting the water on full for a minute gets you past the tough spots. No water comes up after you get it 2 feet into the ground. At 6 1/2 feet there was a layer which water drilling didn't work on at all. When I took out the pipe and pushed the ground rod to the bottom, it felt like it was grinding on small stones when I twisted and shoved the rod. Hammering got the rod down to ground level, at about a 1/4 inch per blow. At first I didn't think it was moving.


Because of a personal experience, I take grounding more seriously than I generally take warnings. In my shortwave days, I used to have a 30 foot high home-made antenna on the roof. You are supposed to ground the antenna when not in use, which I did by moving the antenna lead from the radio to a ground wire with an allgator clip. I was awakened about 3 AM from a dead sleep one night by a loud snapping noise. I glanced over in the black to see a spark in time to the snapping. I ran from the room in terror. I thought it was a discharge such as is sometimes described preceding a lightening strike. When the popping stopped after a few minutes, I went back and turned on the light. What I saw made my blood run cold: The space between the alligator clip (that I negelected to attach) and the ground lead was about 6 inches. I still can't believe a spark could jump a gap like that but I don't know what else the explanation could be. BTW, it was not in a rain storm, but a very windy, dry, ten-degree night in winter, and there was no snow except for sparse crystals blowing like dust. What I saw was probably atmospheric static and not lightning. It did not cause any damage, other than to my psyche. But I know from personal experience about natural electricity at scarey levels.


----------



## nsayer

I believe I've figured out the root of my problems. The BMS-58 (at least, the one I have) does not play well with diplexers. The minute you apply a polarity selection voltage to one of the drops, the


----------



## greywolf

It's more likely the diplexers are at fault. They are cheaper to replace too. Hook up a line directly to the receiver instead of through a diplexer and I'll bet you have no trouble with the OTA signals. I've read here that Spaun diplexers are the only ones that do well in testing but they are pricey.


----------



## MHD1080

I Bought The Db-8 And Split It Into 2 Seperate Antenna's- If I Point Them In 2 Different Direction And Use There Combiner Do I Need To Have Equal Lengths Of Wire From Each Antenna To The Combiner? And How Far Apart Do They Need To Be So They Don't Cause Multi Pathing?


----------



## greywolf

The act of of pointing them in different direction creates multipath problems. Equal length leads and spacing are important for matched antennas pointing in the same direction.


There is a lot of luck involved in getting different direction setups to work. Jointennas which are tuned to specific frequencies can help by rejecting channel groups which cause problems while passing desired ranges but a lot depends on the realtionships between the channel sets in the two directions. It's rarely a trivial job and more often an impossible task to get every channel desired. A/B switches and rotators are good solutions in live viewing situations but PVRs and recording in absentia don't allow those solutions.


If you post your location and what channels you are trying to pick up from what directions, there are people here who are great at figuring this stuff out who may be able to render more specific aid.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ken,you are sooooo right.Thanks for heading up this thread.I'll start it out with one of the best setups for UHF reception...and I've tried 'em all
> 
> 
> Lots of pics and nice links for valuable info.
> 
> http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...rrentUHFTower/




I believe post 3 needs an updated link

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...nas/index.html 


us newbies get lost!


----------



## newsposter

I've been toying with my DB8 while my wife is inside telling me the signals. I can get channel 26 (Philly) in the 80s signal wise but none of the other ones come in more than 60s usually and mostly are in the 30s. I know this can't be used as my permanent mounting position but is it just a weaker amount of power from the other stations or does something have to do with the actual channel numbers? In other words, will channel 26 come in inherentily better than 64 and 67 because of it's frequency?


Also I have lots of problems with the lower signals not being equal on both tuners but assume with a stronger signal that will resolve on my HDtivo.


and how do you guys aim? do you find a mounting spot then try to tweak or do you carry the thing around on the pole (it's what i'm doing) and see what the signal is different places around your house? Seems you can't mount until you know you have a signal. Actually I am using my patio table with umbrella stand, works wonderfully for now.


Also, if all channels are at 130 (except fox at 128), shouldn't all the 130s come in while facing the same way? i've had to turn the antenna what i believe is more than a few degrees (probably an inch in distance) to get better signals on some of the stations. So that's what makes me wonder if the antennaweb thing isn't really accurate for me.


with all this rain i can't even attempt roof mounting but have had my antenna up about 8-12 ft via various methods over the past few days.


Also funny thing is, the strongest signal appears to come while directly facing some trees. I'm worried about mounting after leaves fall because I'd be in trouble in spring when they come back. So time is ticking to get a good signal permanently.


----------



## colofan

How much tilt up would a person typically need for a CM4228 with a station 50 miles away?


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *colofan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How much tilt up would a person typically need for a CM4228 with a station 50 miles away?



The 4228 should be aimed at the horizon.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I believe post 3 needs an updated link
> 
> http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...nas/index.html
> 
> 
> us newbies get lost!



Wow, I'm impressed there are still folks who are reading back that far.


GregB is my hero BTW.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greywolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ....Spacing will not help defeat multipath.



Opinions vary on that subject. Please see the 'Two Antenna Trick', it's here. 


Anyway, that's not what brought me here. This is:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Here's The Deal...* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm in the(ongoing) process of updating my antenna system. The original system consisted of 2 antennas combined with a Join-Tenna. The main antenna is a Winegard 8200 and the 'sidearm' antenna is 1/2 the size pointing in an opposite direction. The 2 antennas connected directly to the Join-Tenna, and then it connected to a Winegard preamp, and into the house.
> 
> 
> During testing we disconnected the 8200 and connected the lead to a CM 4228. That worked like a charm, and a station that I could not receive before locked right in. Fine. Since I really no longer needed the 'sidearm' antenna, we disconnected the Join-Tenna(figuring that might help), and we reconnected the 8200 directly to the preamp. From that point on, the 8200 has not performed as well, and the 4228 has been used in another testing situation(where it has never locked that station).



So, why would disconnecting the Join-Tenna cause the main antenna to perform worse:
Maybe one of the new cables was bad? Maybe, but I make up some pretty decent cables, so I doubt that...
There's a bad connection somewhere? That's possible, and it'll be checked...
Maybe the antenna connector was damaged? That's also possible.

Anyone got any other ideas/explainations? The antennas are on a short tower, and my climbing buddy is out of town, so any checking will have to wait.


Now the reason that the 4228 locked right on, could be atmosphere related, as the station is 53 miles away.

....jc


----------



## CEB II




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyway, that's not what brought me here. This is:
> 
> 
> So, why would disconnecting the Join-Tenna cause the main antenna to perform worse:
> Maybe one of the new cables was bad? Maybe, but I make up some pretty decent cables, so I doubt that...
> There's a bad connection somewhere? That's possible, and it'll be checked...
> Maybe the antenna connector was damaged? That's also possible.
> 
> Anyone got any other ideas/explainations? The antennas are on a short tower, and my climbing buddy is out of town, so any checking will have to wait.
> 
> 
> Now the reason that the 4228 locked right on, could be atmosphere related, as the station is 53 miles away.
> 
> ....jc



Some variable other than the Join-Tenna changed and the 8200 is now getting multi-path signals and/or signal overload. Did the aiming direction of the 8200 change? Did the sideare antenna shield the 8200 from a given direction and now it has been removed? Just looking out side the box, nothing definitive here.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CEB II* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Some variable other than the Join-Tenna changed and the 8200 is now getting multi-path signals and/or signal overload. Did the aiming direction of the 8200 change?



Undoubtedly. A few degrees at best. We tried many pointings to try to get back to what I had prior to the testing. The change has affected all channels, even our beloved KMGH(Denver area joke)!


> Quote:
> Did the sideare antenna shield the 8200 from a given direction and now it has been removed?



The 'sidearm' is mounted at least 6' below the 8200, and it's still there, just not connected to anything.


The problem is that the antenna performed better prior to the changes. So, it boils down to a bad cable/connection, or the Join-Tenna had something to do with it. The next time we test, the 1st thing we'll be doing is hooking the the JT back up!

....jc


----------



## GW222

hello,


I just had an OTA antenna installed, in order to pull all the channels the D* guy said to buy an in line amplifier, I did, the Radio Shack 15-1170.


All the OTA channles now come really strong, but I lose several satellite(CNN, ESPN all HD) channels with the amplifier. Once removed all the sat channels return, worth pointing that I dont lose all just some of the channels, esp HD. It seems that it cannot lock to all the sats, I infer but not sure if it is or why.


Thoughts on this? Thanks, I have used the search fx but cannot find an answer.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GW222* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> hello,
> 
> 
> I just had an OTA antenna installed, in order to pull all the channels the D* guy said to buy an in line amplifier, I did, the Radio Shack 15-1170.
> 
> 
> All the OTA channles now come really strong, but I lose several satellite(CNN, ESPN all HD) channels with the amplifier. Once removed all the sat channels return, worth pointing that I dont lose all just some of the channels, esp HD. It seems that it cannot lock to all the sats, I infer but not sure if it is or why.
> 
> 
> Thoughts on this? Thanks, I have used the search fx but cannot find an answer.



Maybe the In-Line Amp is bad.


----------



## AntAltMike

Is GW222 using a diplexer? If so, then it is blocking his LNB switching voltage and 22Kz tone. If another receiver is connected to his triple-LNB, that receiver is powering the LNB and it is still sending the Sat "A" (101 deg) odd transponders to his HDTV receiver.


If that is the problem, then he probably can remedy it by using a diplexer that passes DC on both legs. Channel Master and Terk (ugh!) both make them.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GW222* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> hello,
> 
> 
> I just had an OTA antenna installed, in order to pull all the channels the D* guy said to buy an in line amplifier, I did, the Radio Shack 15-1170.
> 
> 
> All the OTA channles now come really strong, but I lose several satellite(CNN, ESPN all HD) channels with the amplifier. Once removed all the sat channels return, worth pointing that I dont lose all just some of the channels, esp HD. It seems that it cannot lock to all the sats, I infer but not sure if it is or why.
> 
> 
> Thoughts on this? Thanks, I have used the search fx but cannot find an answer.



Another, more time consuming option, would be to run a totally separate line to your receiver (i'm assuming you aren't doing that now)


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wow, I'm impressed there are still folks who are reading back that far.
> 
> 
> GregB is my hero BTW.



well I decided to start at page 1 but figured i'd skip a few after that because the info was so old.


----------



## newsposter

Now that this board led me to the fcc page, I see my problem first handed


26= 770kw

32=250

42= 305 I assume APP means they are applying for 1000?

54= 500

64=500

67=560


So I'd assume if they cranked up the power I'd be ok. However If i'm reading the page right, it appears only fox has an app in for 1000.


----------



## Ken H

Cross posted comments and replies deleted.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

Please help... I'm losing credibility with a friend. I convinced him to switch from cable to DirecTV HD, and with the OTA he can't get ABC and CBS. He's in San Diego and according to www.antennaweb.org he is only 7.3 miles from those 2 stations. He's getting all the other ones, fox, nbc, at 19 miles away. The directv OTA antenna didn't get much, so we bought this at radio shack, http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D2160 a 40" boom. That didn't work so he go the 80" http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D2160 still no luck and these are supposed to have 70 mile ranges.



The problem is, that according to the antennaweb, the direction that the antenna needs to point to get ABC and CBS are at a hill as he sits at the bottom of it. The house is 2 stories and the hill is about another 40 feet higher than the house.


Will any antenna pick up these channels? Or does he have to have direct line of site and the hill is going to always block it..


Directv will not grant the waivers, and he's been declined 2 times.


the channelmaster 4228 or the DB8 look great, but he said if he bought either and they didn't work, he'd make me pay for it...










Will an amplifier work? If so, I'm not that familiar with them, do they plug inside where the tv is, or outdoors where the antenna is. will this work? http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...uct_id=15-1170 


It's been a frustrating experience, I hope someone can help.


----------



## K Rock XP




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No, 7 and 10 are transmitted digitally on channels 8 and 9 (from the last column in your antennaweb results) so they are VHF-high. I'm sorry I continued the joking about VHF-low antennas because they aren't needed by almost anyone for digital TV. The 4228 8-bay is a not-too bad antenna for VHF-high; it should be much better for that than a 4221. If you mounted rabbit ears on your roof they would probably work for your VHF channels and the 4228 is as good as or better than rabbit ears so I expect that the 4228 would be OK. It is way more UHF antenna than you need though so you could go with a smaller UHF antenna plus a small VHF-high antenna instead if you think that looks better.



Hey guys i got the ANT. but something strange has happened. I only ordered one ant. and was only charged for one ANT. on my CC. but take a look i think they sent me 3 ant's unless it is a huge ant. whats your thoughts on it?

http://www.squadxp.com/news/ant1.jpg 
http://www.squadxp.com/news/ant2.jpg 
http://www.squadxp.com/news/ant3.jpg 


K Rock XP


----------



## holl_ands

Somewhere there are two people wondering where their missing CM4228's might be.

Obviously, each one came in it's own box.


----------



## georget

What Would Jesus Do?


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *georget* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What Would Jesus Do?



He'd prolly say: 'This sure beats grilling with a stick. I can just place the meat on this thing!'

....jc


----------



## K Rock XP




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Somewhere there are two people wondering where their missing CM4228's might be.
> 
> Obviously, each one came in it's own box.




lol wondering if i should return them.


----------



## GW222

Thanks Mike and Newposter,


I have a diplexer at the receiver end, but also imagine there is one upstream on the roof that consolidates the OTA plus my three receivers only one of them is HD.


I looked ta the current dlpxr is a cheap RCA that D* install at hte receiver end, is this the one you refer to?


Thanks


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gadgetfreaky* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Please help... I'm losing credibility with a friend. I convinced him to switch from cable to DirecTV HD, and with the OTA he can't get ABC and CBS. He's in San Diego and according to www.antennaweb.org he is only 7.3 miles from those 2 stations. He's getting all the other ones, fox, nbc, at 19 miles away. The directv OTA antenna didn't get much, so we bought this at radio shack, http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D2160 a 40" boom. That didn't work so he go the 80" http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D2160 still no luck and these are supposed to have 70 mile ranges.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is, that according to the antennaweb, the direction that the antenna needs to point to get ABC and CBS are at a hill as he sits at the bottom of it. The house is 2 stories and the hill is about another 40 feet higher than the house.
> 
> 
> Will any antenna pick up these channels? Or does he have to have direct line of site and the hill is going to always block it..
> 
> 
> Directv will not grant the waivers, and he's been declined 2 times.
> 
> 
> the channelmaster 4228 or the DB8 look great, but he said if he bought either and they didn't work, he'd make me pay for it...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will an amplifier work? If so, I'm not that familiar with them, do they plug inside where the tv is, or outdoors where the antenna is. will this work? http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...uct_id=15-1170
> 
> 
> It's been a frustrating experience, I hope someone can help.



Since you've been to antennaweb, I'm assuming you're aiming properly.


I'm also assuming you've done a channel scan and it's not some wierd PSIP incompatibility issue with the D* receiver.


The problem when line of sight is lost is usually mulitpath. I would probably try the variable attenuator from RS first as that's cheap and easy. An attenuator can sometimes knock down the reflection enough for the receiver to lock.

Don't use a preamp. That's too close for one and they'll make multipath worse.


If still no success, try repositioning the antenna, changing height (sometimes even lower is better) and non-intuitive aiming. You might be able to tune via a reflected signal. If you have an analog to look at from the same location as the problem digitals it can be helpful to look at it and try to minimize the ghosting. This may also be helpful when trying the attenuator as well.


If you still haven't got it, then you may have to try a different antenna. You need narrow beamwidth and high front-to-back ratio to combat multipath. The CM 4228 would be a good option. Once you're using the 4228, you may need to go back and repeat all of the above steps again.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Opinions vary on that subject. Please see the 'Two Antenna Trick', it's here.



That's horizontal stacking. This narrows beamwidth considerably if done properly which helps to combat multipath. I'd say that's a fact and there's little contraversy or varied opinion on it. There does seem to be some disagreement as to whether stacking horizontally increases gain. I believe it does if a low-loss combiner is used.


I'm almost certain Greywolf is familiar with this and was referring to the earlier poster aiming two antennas in different directions which can actually *produce* multipath.


----------



## georget




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> He'd prolly say: 'This sure beats grilling with a stick. I can just place the meat on this thing!'
> 
> ....jc




That's right. He could grill 32 hot dogs at a time on one of these babies, then WHAM! feed 1000 people. My high school cafeteria had similar skills in stretching food.


If it were me, I would call the store that shipped the three antennas and explain what happened. They don't make a lot of money on each one. They could contact UPS to come by and pick them up from your house.


Then go out and buy a Power Ball ticket! $290 mil this week.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...There does seem to be some disagreement as to whether stacking horizontally increases gain. I believe it does if a low-loss combiner is used.



I don't know who would disagree that stacking(horizontally or vertically) increases gain. 3db in a perfect situation(which will probably never happen). However, the method in which they are 'combined' makes all the difference.



> Quote:
> I'm almost certain Greywolf is familiar with this and was referring to the earlier poster aiming two antennas in different directions which can actually *produce* multipath.



That's pretty much a given. I'm sure that there are people that 'get lucky' but in general it's chances of success are very low.

....jc


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't know who would disagree that stacking(horizontally or vertically) increases gain. 3db in a perfect situation(which will probably never happen). However, the method in which they are 'combined' makes all the difference.



Alright, let the fun begin...


I'm on your side, though I'm admittedly biased.


----------



## AntAltMike

Pointing two directional antennas in different directions and coupling them through a splitter actually works better than you might expect. Digital signals are more immune to degradation by unintended signals and interference than are analog signals. I maintain systems where I have combined signals without filtering out undesired signal and had them work just fine. But of course, I am using a spectrum analyzer and can see whether I am "in the ballpark" with the dB ratio of the desired-to-undersired signals.


Where people always get into trouble is when they point one antenna at the nearby tower(s) and another at the distant ones and amplify the weaker signals, because the amplification of the unintended undesired signal from one antenna will approach or exceed the strength of the intended signal.


----------



## AntAltMike

In one system, I point one antenna northwest at 34-36, and 39, four miles away, and I point another northeast at 38 and 40, thirty miles away but about 90 degrees off the other antenna's azimuth. I put a channel 42 lowpass filter on the 38/40 antenna downlead and then couple it through a two way splitter with the 34-39 lead, and then pass the combined output through a 32 highpass to accommodate more sophisticated additional combining.


The highly directional antenna pointed to the northeast develops stronger unintended channel 39 than it does of the intended channels 38 and 40, but I can pad down the desired channel 39 so that it is only about 15 to 20dB stronger than the adjacent 38 and 40 and just 10-15dB stronger than the unintended 39, yet the combined signal is readily tunable on all the adjacent channels.


----------



## kflorek




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *K Rock XP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey guys i got the ANT. but something strange has happened.
> 
> 
> ant1.jpg
> 
> ant2.jpg
> 
> ant3.jpg
> 
> 
> K Rock XP



From the pics, you have a terrible case of multipath


----------



## RayL Jr.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *K Rock XP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> lol wondering if i should return them.



Well, objectively & ethically you should...


I just ordered a push broom w/lifetime warranty via UPS & it was "damaged item/missing in box" from online tracking. I'm pretty sure "Jesus" didn't swipe it, unless maybe it was put to a good cause...







Since the shipper I know just wraps & not boxes similar items received, it may be the "new broom" on the UPS warehouse floor...


----------



## kflorek

Although I have frequently seen it mentioned that the Channel Master 4228 UHF antenna gets adequate reception on the high VHF band, I didn't expect to get anything but snow on VHF from the Winegard PR-9032 UHF-only antenna that I just put up. But hey, all 4 local VHF stations ( 2, 4, 7, and 9) come in snow-free (from about 12 miles away), and channel 11 from Toledo (43 miles away) is snowy but viewable with the rotor pointed in that direction.


My tuner is a plug in PC card, the ATI HDTV Wonder. It also has a second coax input for analog tuning, which seems to be a good tuner too. So I thought I would see if I might get any DX on UHF analog with this 10 foot yagi+corner reflector. Not really; the distant "possibles" are pretty snowy or blanked to a blue-screen. (As antennaweb predicts) The only surprise was Flint from 41 miles away, which has moderate snow. ( I also get a reliable lock from their HDTV broadcast.) Flint happens to lie in the 20 degrees of circumference that is not blocked by a veritable forest of over 50 foot trees on my neighbors' property, so I guess that's why.


Then (why not?) I tried VHF, and got perfect reception. Well almost. No snow. No ghosts (with the rotor adjusted.) It beats anything I ever got from my attic antenna for sure. But the picture looks slightly smeared. Since I also put up a second combo antenna (Channel Master 3679) for a second TV, I know it can look better. VHF analog looks almost digital in comparison on the CM 3679 (a 10 ft all-band)


BTW, I asked if these two antennas might interfere when mounted so close (18 feet mast to mast), and a knowledgable person explained why they likely would not, although for channel 2 it was technically too close. My present estimated distance between the two masts (15 feet) is a little less than I guessed before (18 feet). But the 9032 has no VHF size elements, so... IAC, there is no noticeable problem so far. Thanks to that poster. When the two antennas are pointed at each other, there is only 2 1/2 feet between. I intentionally mounted one antenna 2 feet higher than the other, so they would still miss in case I screwed up somewhere. I have misjudged simpler things...



I admit the over-the-top visual of a 10ft UHF appealed to me. But it should perform pretty close to the much loved CM 4228, with a small wind load in comparison.


Aluminum beats steel. The 4228 is steel, versus the usual aluminum of the 9032. Anything made of steel gets rusty in a few years, and looks bad even if it might actually work OK. Even the zinc-plated, white-painted screws around my aluminum storm doors are rusting and bleeding rust stains on the white aluminum frame. It looks sloppy and neglected.


There was a neighbor that put up a 4228 (or an ancestor) when I was kid. I thought it looked cool, although adults thought "it looked like radar," which was horrid in their eyes. 25 years later, rusted out and looking like an antique, junk bed-spring, it blew down in a storm, such as only hits in twenty years, and the neighbors were all smiles when he said he wouldn't put it back up. It was not in consideration of the neighbors though. He said he hadn't used it in years.


Don't know why, but some pictures have this 9032 with a yellow center bar and blue elements. I was kind of looking forward to it if it came that way. But mine is plain silver aluminum. It has zinc-plated steel rivets and mounts coated with a yellow zinc chromate film. Those will rust in a few years. I put dabs of a one-coat latex metal primer that does not need a top coat on the rivets and hardware in hopes of slowing it down.


Last but not least, the 9032 gives me steady locks on all the HDTV locals, plus Flint. The signal stength on locals in daylight doesn't drop below 80%, whatever per cent means, and will stay around 94%(never 100%) for the best stations at their best position of the rotor . Although I thought that direction was going to be through the 20 degrees of comparatively clear circumference, it turned out to be directly at an immense tree to one side. Oh well. A surprise was Flint WFUM, 41 miles away. The best position is right through the clear 20 degrees. It only gets like 54% strength, and has a narrow range for the rotor direction, but it doesn't drop out. It seems as solid HD as the locals. The big problem with the indoor antenna (for the locals) was drops to 0% every 2 minutes or so. So I'm thrilled with the improvement.


Now that I've got this far, there seems to be another, if small, problem. Several times in an hour, the tuner puts a message in a box at the top, the same message it puts up when it first tunes a digital station: like Video Stream Format 720p. The is no glitch in the sound and the picture may or may not hesitate for a moment, it varies. It seems possible I may be losing a lock for a frame or two. OTOH, it may be software. I know this PC card tuner uses the computer for decoding. It seems to me, the hesitation, if it is, comes where there is a sudden large difference between frames, like when some one is sitting in car and they duck from gunfire, or something like that. That could mean the software did not complete the decoding of the data stream and skipped a frame. But I see no way to rule out a reception problem either. It could mean a higher data rate needs a cleaner signal. Anyone got any ideas or experience on things like this?


----------



## RawisJericho

My HD TV has a tuner built into it, and I am thinking about getting one of the $12 RCA antennas from Wal-Mart. Are those pretty good, or should I step it up to the $24 model?


----------



## leebo

Please tell me if I should post this in another thread.


I'm stuck using an indoor antenna for now). I'm in Los Angeles (about 20 miles from the broadcast tower according to antennaweb).


With my Sony's built in tuner, Iamb able to receive most (I think) of the available stations, but not all the time and not without much pain.

I'm continually having to adjust the antenna depending on the station, time of day, and more annoyingly, if I get up and move around.


I'm using a RS 1880, I think (I'm not home right now). I have a Zenith indoor antenna on order, I'd like to see if it can do a better job.


Is there any way to connect both antenna at the same time, hopefully so I don't have to adjust either one as much?


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

Well, almost a week ago I guess (after my last post), I moved the antenna 2-3' more backwards in the attic, trying to aim through a better area. At one point it seemed better, but I don't think it really was. I don't think anything is much different now actually than before I moved it 6 times!


I decided to try the $35 RS 15-1170 pre-amp. Not very good specs, I know (10/6dB gain/noise), but I just wanted to see if the bit of amplification (probably not much with that noise?!) made a difference. Late Friday night after installing it (the old RS amp is still there too), the signals were better than ever -- by about 10%. KETC-9 had 63-69% from 4-6AM, which was a record. But later in the day, they all seemed to drop back to "normal."








That'll be returned...


Things certainly haven't look any better than before since, unless something else is messed up. BTW, I forgot to mention about the old RS amp -- sometimes it just seems to not amplify the signal properly (every few weeks, and it acted up again after installing the pre-amp). If I go unplug it from power and reconnect it, it'll start working fine again.







Do they kinda get worn out?


I downloaded and tried playing with holl_ands' Fade_Margin spreadsheet (total spreadsheet n00b here!







), in OpenOffice, no Excel; but I wasn't sure what to put for some of the values (why antenna to pre-amp loss if there's no pre-amp? I thought loss w/o pre-amp would go in the pre-amp to dist-amp/cable loss field), although I seemed to be able to get an idea of the *difference* in fade margin by changing the pre-amp gain/noise (I also had the other amp's specs in there). I don't understand how VSWR improves with the pre-amp, unless it's because it happens AFTER the pre-amp; or I simply don't understand it.







Also, I don't think I know what H*G*TV means.










Now I've actually started thinking about what the antenna would be like outside, especially if the attic is causing 15-20dB loss.







If I would try it, since I don't know what happned to the rest of the antenna hardware for mounting, etc. and so I wouldn't have to put holes in the roof, what do you guys think about laying the antenna across the roof peak?? I've got an idea about how I could guy-wire it (anchored to fascia where the gutter would be -- no gutter on this small second story section) on each side in the middle at the peak and toward the ends, keeping the required angle, etc. Is there a problem with that; would it perform OK (it'd be a couple feet higher than in the attic)? It might not be good for the shingles if it shifts a bit, but I could put a piece of aluminum under the antenna there.


dB-wise, does anyone have a rough idea how much signal strength might change from day to night to allow better reception? Or how little dB difference could there be for a channel to go from no reception or heavy breakups to nearly no breakups (for a couple minutes at least; not necessarily hours)? I'm hoping if I decided to move it outside that I'd get a major improvement!







I'm sure moving it outside would help more than the best pre-amp or a different/additional antenna in the attic, correct?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RawisJericho* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My HD TV has a tuner built into it, and I am thinking about getting one of the $12 RCA antennas from Wal-Mart. Are those pretty good, or should I step it up to the $24 model?



Try the $12 antenna if you want. If it doesn't work, skip the $24 model and get a Zenith Silver Sensor. For about the same price, it's worlds better.


----------



## demisod

I recently got a HR10-250 Directv receiver that has built-in ATSC tuners. I was expecting to get pretty good reception from my rooftop antenna since I get good reception from the ATSC tuners in my TV (new Sony A10). However, this has not been the case. The TV's tuner is much better (maybe a more recent chipset?). The TV's signal meter shows stable signals in the 70s and mid-60s for most of the channels. The D* box's meter shows wildly flucuating signals. The peak strength is sometimes OK, but most of the time the signals are in the 20s.


My initial feeling was that the signal was too weak. I based this on a couple of things:


The broadcast towers are about 36 miles away, which I suspect is nearing the limits of the antenna's UHF range, and the antenna does not have a preamp on it. The antenna is a Channel Master U/V/F antenna, about 15 years old -- unfortunately I don't remember the model number or its specs. I believe it is aimed in generally the right direction, but could probably be aimed more accurately.


Analogue signals for the stations are very snowy. I do not see ghosting on the stations, but lots of snow.


However, there is an oddity here. I run the antenna into a three-way splitter, feeding both the TV and the D* box, as well as an A/V receiver for the FM signal. Since I thought signal strength was the issue, I tried running the antenna straight into the D* box. Things got worse. It lost most of the channels it had been detecting and the signal meter dropped considerably on the couple that it could still find. This seems very, very odd to me. Just for grins, I tried hooking a Radion Shack attenuator up before and after the splitter. It didn't make any difference, and truthfully it seems impossible the signal could be too strong at the distances involved. Is there any reason a splitter could _improve_ a weak signal? Is it possible that I have a multipath problem, even though the analogue channels are snowy rather than ghosting?


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *demisod* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> However, there is an oddity here. I run the antenna into a three-way splitter, feeding both the TV and the D* box, as well as an A/V receiver for the FM signal. Since I thought signal strength was the issue, I tried running the antenna straight into the D* box. Things got worse. It lost most of the channels it had been detecting and the signal meter dropped considerably on the couple that it could still find. This seems very, very odd to me. Just for grins, I tried hooking a Radion Shack attenuator up before and after the splitter. It didn't make any difference, and truthfully it seems impossible the signal could be too strong at the distances involved. Is there any reason a splitter could _improve_ a weak signal? Is it possible that I have a multipath problem, even though the analogue channels are snowy rather than ghosting?



If any signal at the tuner input is too strong then it can cause overload that can impact all reception. Where are you located? Do you have any nearby FM radio or TV stations (analog or digital) at all? How do the analog stations look without the splitter? You might just have a bad connection somewhere; how do the connections to the antenna look? In the absence of overloading reducing signal levels does not improve multipath reception so the improvement with the splitter doesn't imply multipath.


----------



## demisod

Ummm. There is a TV station located nearby. The PBS station has a tower about four miles away, although the antenna is not pointed towards it. All the other TV stations are in some antenna farm about 36 miles away. Not sure about FM radio. The PBS station is the only one the D* box consistently picks up. The signal meter reports about 90 on it (but it does flucuate a lot). I realize the meter isn't reporting signal strength but how successfully the signal is being decoded. It's possible the connection on the antenna could be going bad. My roof is very steep and I am reluctant to get up on it any more than is necessary, but that is a possibility.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *demisod* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ummm. There is a TV station located nearby. The PBS station has a tower about four miles away, although the antenna is not pointed towards it. All the other TV stations are in some antenna farm about 36 miles away. Not sure about FM radio. The PBS station is the only one the D* box consistently picks up. The signal meter reports about 90 on it (but it does flucuate a lot). I realize the meter isn't reporting signal strength but how successfully the signal is being decoded. It's possible the connection on the antenna could be going bad. My roof is very steep and I am reluctant to get up on it any more than is necessary, but that is a possibility.



It is likely that the PBS station is causing overloading. What are your antennaweb.org results including the last columns? If the PBS channel frequency is not close to your other channels then you can get a filter to reduce it. A good directional antenna will also help to reduce the PBS signal. If one side of the antenna connection is bad then there will likely be an increase in the signal from PBS that you are not pointed at and a big decrease in the stations that you are pointed at.


----------



## demisod

The antennaweb.org results are posted at the end. The ones I'm interested in are the UHF stations at 125 degrees. The PBS station is at 228 degrees, but less than two miles away. It's frequency is 59. The others stations are at 55, 53, 52 and 49. Just curious though. If the PBS station is too strong, why do I pick it up? Or is it a case of swamping the other channels? (Assuming that is indeed the problem.)
Code:


Code:


*       red - uhf       WTVD-DT 11.1    ABC     DURHAM          NC              126°    36.8    52
*       red - uhf       WUNC-DT 4.1     PBS     CHAPEL HILL     NC              228°    4.7     59
*       red - uhf       WRAL-DT 5.1     CBS     RALEIGH         NC              125°    36.8    53
*       red - uhf       WXLV-DT 45.1    ABC     WINSTON-SALEM   NC              273°    39.9    29
*       red - uhf       WUVC-DT 40.1    UNI     FAYETTEVILLE    NC              173°    29      38
*       red - uhf       WRAZ-DT 50.1    FOX     RALEIGH         NC              125°    36.8    49
*       red - uhf       WNCN-DT 17.1    NBC     GOLDSBORO       NC              125°    36.8    55
*       red - uhf       WUPN-DT 48.1    UPN     GREENSBORO      NC              273°    39.9    33
*       red - uhf       WFMY-DT 2.1     CBS     GREENSBORO      NC              274°    40.8    51
*       blue - uhf      WLFL-DT 22.1    WB      RALEIGH         NC              125°    36.8    57
*       blue - uhf      WRDC-DT 28.1    UPN     DURHAM          NC              125°    36.8    27
*       violet - uhf    WRPX-DT 47.1    i       ROCKY MOUNT     NC              84°     53.1    15
*       violet - uhf    WLXI-DT 61.1    TBN     GREENSBORO      NC              273°    39.9    43


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *demisod* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The antennaweb.org results are posted at the end. The ones I'm interested in are the UHF stations at 125 degrees. The PBS station is at 228 degrees, but less than two miles away. It's frequency is 59. The others stations are at 55, 53, 52 and 49. Just curious though. If the PBS station is too strong, why do I pick it up? Or is it a case of swamping the other channels? (Assuming that is indeed the problem.)
> 
> ...



Making sure that your antenna and downlead system is working well is important. Putting up a new UHF only outdoor antenna from Channelmaster or Winegard with RG-6 quad shield downlead would be one way to ensure that.


To reduce the PBS channel level you could get a Channelmaster Join-Tenna that can be ordered from www.warrenelectronics.com to filter channel 59; it should allow you to continue getting PBS but it might reduce your ability to get WB on 57. You could also use a tunable UHF trap like the Winegard UT-2700 but that requires a way to measure channel 59's signal level to tune and would likely kill PBS. By the way, most of your stations will be moving their frequency in the future because they are not in the core band below channel 52. For instance the PBS station has an application to move to channel 25. This means whatever filtering you put in now will not work after the change.


There are a couple of reasons that the strong channel is not the one that you lose from overloading. First of all overloading causes intermodulation products that can swamp weak stations before the strong station is damaged. The second reason has to do with overloading in the receiver because of the way the automatic gain control (AGC) is usually implemented. The AGC circuit usually sets the gain based on a narrowly filtered signal level from just the station being tuned but the front end amplifier carries a much wider band of signals containing many channels. When the strong signal is tuned the TV turns down the front end amplifier so the overloading is reduced or eliminated; but when a weaker channel is tuned the AGC turns up the gain causing the strong channel to saturate the input amplifier. It is possible to make an AGC circuit that measures the same signal that is amplified but for some reason manufacturers don't normally bother to use them.


----------



## Oldfart

Demisod:


The OTA tuner in the HR10-250 sucks. Below is my experience:


My HD TiVo (HR10-250) is replacing a Sony HD 200 and a Series 2 TiVo. A number of OTA channels that I received perfectly on the HD 200 were not received at all on the HD TiVo. I got the message "Searching for signal on: Antenna In". The only thing that the installer did was to disconnect the antenna line from the Series 2 TiVo setup (and lay it aside) and disconnect the antenna line from the HD 200 and connect it to the HD TiVo.


Looking into the problem further, I determined that there are 11 channels transmitting from the Miami/Fort Lauderdale antenna farm that is 36 miles from me. I used to receive 8; channels transmitting on 8,9,18,19,20,22,31 and 52. After trading the Sony HD 200 for the HD TiVo, I received only the VHS channels, 8 and 9. Since UHF requires more power to produce the same reception as VHF, and my antenna setup did not change, I concluded that the tuner in the HD TiVo was not as sensitive as that in the Sony HD 200, and that my solution was to replace my Terk TV 35 with a CM 4228, which has much higher gain.


I installed the CM4228 in my attic, directly in front of the disconnected Terk TV 35, merely removing the lead from the Terk and attaching it to the 4228. Instant success! I now receive all the channels that I did on the Sony HD 200 except for the one transmitting on channel 8. That might have been expected, since the 4228 is a UHF antenna, although it does have considerable gain in the high band VHS frequencies.


Bottom line: The OTA tuner in the HD TiVo is considerably less sensitive than that in the Sony HD 200, and if you are considering trading the latter for the former, be aware that you may have to upgrade your antenna in order to get the reception that you previously did.


----------



## millerwill

Can the simple Silver Sensor antenna that one uses to get hd channels OTA also be connected (e.g. by a jumper cable) to one's AV receiver and also use it to FM reception? Tx.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *millerwill* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can the simple Silver Sensor antenna that one uses to get hd channels OTA also be connected (e.g. by a jumper cable) to one's AV receiver and also use it to FM reception? Tx.



The silver sensor is designed for UHF TV only and would make a poor FM radio antenna. Just about any antenna designed just for FM would work better including a cheap twinlead T loop or rabbit ears.


----------



## hardballpete

I'm down in Davie, & since getting the HDTIVO, I've had all kinds of OTA reception problems. Plainly speaking, it's tuner stinks out loud!


Weak, and a lot of stuttering & pixellation even though signal reads strong!


Found a spot outside finally, after 4 weeks of trying 4 different indoor antennas with lousy results.


If this thing didn't record in HDTV, I'd crush it's digital skull with my louisville slugger!


Very annoying tuner and molasses slow guide too!


----------



## TotallyPreWired

In doing testing in the mountains from 2 different locations(0.6 mile apart), we are having some success at receiving stations from 50+ miles. All of the stations that we are trying to receive have signal peaks in the 80's or 90's. However, in the ones that we can't lock, every few seconds the signal drops to zero. I assume that this is multipath. *Correct?*


Now, if this is multipath, is there a general theory, guess, speculation that one might make on how much the signal needs to be boosted in order to 'lock' the station? 2db, 3db, 4db, just forget it kid?


Thanks,

....jc


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> However, in the ones that we can't lock, every few seconds the signal drops to zero. I assume that this is multipath. *Correct?*
> 
> 
> Now, if this is multipath, is there a general theory, guess, speculation that one might make on how much the signal needs to be boosted in order to 'lock' the station? 2db, 3db, 4db, just forget it kid?



If the signals are weak enough, most meters drop to zero when they can't figure out what the stream is anymore. After all, what good is an error ratio if you can't tell what the signal ought to be? I wouldn't assume multipath - check analogs for snow or ghosting. It's probably snow (weak signals.)


And you're backwards on your solution. You can't solve multipath with signal boosting. You can only solve multipathing by nulling the reflected signal, attenuating it below the noise floor (while leaving the primary signal above) or using a special tuner designed to add multiple signals together.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I wouldn't assume multipath - check analogs for snow or ghosting. It's probably snow (weak signals.)



Thanks for the info!


I don't think that the signals are weak. Like I indicated the signal strength's are in the 80's or 90's before they drop to zero. Say, 2 seconds at 85%, then 1/2 second at zero, then back to 85%. They are acting like something is interrupting them. And, this phenomenon is pretty standard among all of the stations that will not lock. Of course, this could just be this particular receiver. Now, if the signal stayed steady, at say 20%, and the receiver needed 30% to lock, I could see where signal strength would be an obvious issue.

....jc


----------



## leebo

FWIW I received my silver Sensor today, and after playing with it for about an hour I realized it's much worse than the RS 1880 I've been using, at least in my apartment in L.A.


Guess I'll have to suffer until I decide wether to go to cable or fight w/my apt. manager over upgrading my Dish Network antenna. I've read that HD from cable looks superior to satellite. Who knows?


----------



## millerwill




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *leebo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> FWIW I received my silver Sensor today, and after playing with it for about an hour I realized it's much worse than the RS 1880 I've been using, at least in my apartment in L.A.
> 
> 
> Guess I'll have to suffer until I decide wether to go to cable or fight w/my apt. manager over upgrading my Dish Network antenna. I've read that HD from cable looks superior to satellite. Who knows?



Yes, I think it is true that HD via cable is better than from satellite. This is not inherent, but the statellite companies compress their signals a great deal, lowering quality.


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info!
> 
> 
> I don't think that the signals are weak. Like I indicated the signal strength's are in the 80's or 90's before they drop to zero. Say, 2 seconds at 85%, then 1/2 second at zero, then back to 85%. They are acting like something is interrupting them. And, this phenomenon is pretty standard among all of the stations that will not lock. Of course, this could just be this particular receiver. Now, if the signal stayed steady, at say 20%, and the receiver needed 30% to lock, I could see where signal strength would be an obvious issue.
> 
> ....jc



What you are looking at is a 'signal quality' meter, even if it is labeled a 'signal strength' meter. Most set top boxes use a combination of signal strength measurement and Signal to Noise Ratio (S/N) to generate a 5 to 10 step readout for the consumer. So when the S/N ratio drops down low, the box looses lock on the digital signal and gives you a 0 readout until it reaquires lock. Not all boxes use the same values, so some boxes loose lock at a high number, some at a much lower number. I have only seen two STB's that actually gave a signal level readout and only one that had a S/N ratio readout.


sregener gave you some good advice, check the analogs. Once you describe what they look like (snowy, ghosty, moving ghosts, etc.) we will be able to give you some advice on what to try next.


Bob Chase


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What you are looking at is a 'signal quality' meter, even if it is labeled a 'signal strength' meter.



Thanks for that info Bob.



> Quote:
> sregener gave you some good advice, check the analogs. Once you describe what they look like (snowy, ghosty, moving ghosts, etc.) we will be able to give you some advice on what to try next.



I will check the *2* that are available(and those are the worst ones!). I am trying to get signals from the now infamous Denver area. When I say that only 2 are available, it's the fact that the analog transmitters and the digital transmitters are not in the same locations(not even close), so analog/digital comparisons are meaningless. And, all of the stations are at low power. Want a challenge, try this place!


I would like to make a decision this week on the next step to take. So, I should have that info this week.


Thank you both for the input!

....jc


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would like to make a decision this week on the next step to take. So, I should have that info this week.



You don't say what antenna you're currently using, but multipath is usually cured with a higher gain antenna, a different design style, or a horizontal stack (assuming, of course that the multipath is ground-based. If it's from the air, a vertical stack works better.)


Since you can't do the standard analog test, getting hold of a spectrum analyzer would be a big help. It will actually let you "see" the wave and what's happening with it. Your signal meter basically forces you to guess what the problem is. Of course, spectrum analyzers aren't cheap, and unless you can borrow one, probably not worth the cost. But there is no better tool for your needs.


----------



## Marksnewa10

I just ordered installation of my HD DVR from Directtv. I am going to have them also bring out the OTA antennae that they offer as well. Has anyone had experience with this antennae for local HD shows? Just looking for some quick feedback. Here is the URL to the page on the directtv page. Itwont let me add the URL since I am a newbie and have not submitted 5 posts.



Thanks.

Mark


----------



## JPat

I have a Mitsubishi WS-65813 RPTV and according to my manual it is fully integrated HDTV. What is the best indoor antenna can I use for this tv to pick up HD and digital channels?


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...sregener gave you some good advice, check the analogs. Once you describe what they look like (snowy, ghosty, moving ghosts, etc.) we will be able to give you some advice on what to try next.



This may not help, but here goes:


The best info I can give you is from the 'main' antenna. Now it doesn't receive 2 stations that I need, but it does receive several others. *This antenna is pointed toward downtown Denver, not toward the other signal that I need(31)*. This antenna is mounted on a mast on top of a 25' tower.

Wingard 8200

Winegard AP 8780


Using this to tune analog 31, the picture is decent, with single large ghost to the right of the picture. The digital 'signal strength'(or whatever), peaks around 70%, and drops to zero. Back & forth.


I plan on using either a CM 4228 or a 91XG(with a CM 7775) mounted below the 'main' antenna(directly on a tower leg) for this station(31). Testing with these antennas was done on a tripod located near the tower, but only about 8' high.


With the 4228 pointed in the correct direction, the picture is a bit fuzzier, with the same large ghost to the right side of the picture. There is no digital signal for this station(height obviously makes a big difference here). Turn this antenna toward Denver(about 15 degrees), this antenna is able to pick up a few of the stations(digital).


The best scenario for testing, obviously, would to have the 4228 mounted on the tower. However, my tower climbing friend was not available to help move it. Previously we did test the 4228 on the tower leg(using the 'main' antenna's preamp), and the station(31) locked right on. However, once the preamp was removed, the signal was lost(we had to restore the 'main' antenna). So, we don't know if atmosphere was an issue or not(the transmistters are about 53 miles away).


I'm sure that you may still need more info, just ask. But I would like to use the 4228 for channel 31. If need be, I can get another one and vertically stack them(horizontal stacking would be a bit more difficult)


I welcome any suggestions.


Thanks,

....jc


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm sure that you may still need more info, just ask. But I would like to use the 4228 for channel 31. If need be, I can get another one and vertically stack them(horizontal stacking would be a bit more difficult)



Stacking a 4228 is counter-productive. It's already a stack.


It sounds like you got good results with the 4228 and a preamplifier. That's the route I would go. If you only need channel 31 with the 4228, and everything else comes in on the Winegard, a Channel Master Jointenna tuned to channel 31 should work for you. If you need more stations than that from the 4228, you should probably run a second run of coax to an A/B switch (and a second preamplifier), as filtering gets expensive.


Given what I've heard about Denver stations and power levels, you're getting very good results already.


----------



## plumeria




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gawngulfing* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've seen suggestions of the CM 7777 amp but I seem only to find CM 7775 to buy online.



Do a simple Google search and you'll find lots of places to buy it online


peter


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *plumeria* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do a simple Google search and you'll find lots of places to buy it online
> 
> 
> peter



SolidSignal would be my choice as they are (?were) a forum sponsor. Others include Warren, Starkelectronics.


----------



## MAX HD

Charles,


Thanks for the compliment on that other thread.I'm flattered!


Sounds like this prewired guy in Denver could use some of our Band A's neither of us are using right now.IMO there is nothing better for the lower UHF channels.Been debating whether to keep the ones I have.Still got yours?


Greg B


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Charles,
> 
> 
> Thanks for the compliment on that other thread.I'm flattered!
> 
> 
> Sounds like this prewired guy in Denver could use some of our Band A's neither of us are using right now.IMO there is nothing better for the lower UHF channels.Been debating whether to keep the ones I have.Still got yours?
> 
> 
> Greg B



Mine are back up so they're not available.







The DAT75's just didn't give me the stable reception I need for my primary Knoxville channels (digital 34 and 30). I did pick up a few more upper uhf's but even they weren't completely stable. In addition, the PBS 41 from Sneedville is now full power and is stable even with the Band A's.


I'd agree it's (the Band A) a great choice for ch. 31. Two stacked would be even better.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Stacking a 4228 is counter-productive. It's already a stack.



Ok, but since the antenna area would double, might that not make a difference?



> Quote:
> ...If you only need channel 31 with the 4228, and everything else comes in on the Winegard, a Channel Master Jointenna tuned to channel 31 should work for you.



That brings up the infamous Join-Tenna question I asked a week or so ago. Please read and give me your opinion.


When the weather clears(they forecasted up to 8" of snow for today), we'll be reinstalling the 4228 on the tower with it's own 7775(I'll worry about possibly combing the antennas later). Hopefully by Friday. If it picks up 31, I'm set, if not the saga continues.


Thanks,

....jc


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ok, but since the antenna area would double, might that not make a difference?
> 
> 
> That brings up the infamous Join-Tenna question I asked a week or so ago. Please read and give me your opinion.



It's been tried: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/16bay.html 


See also: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/32bay.html 


Honestly, I'm already worried about your tower and wind loads, as the 4228 nears the maximum load for my tower. Maybe yours is a more sturdy model. But 2 4228s is a serious amount of weight, and if the wind hits that thing just right....


I think the most likely possibility with the jointenna relates to overload, but it's just a guess. Unless somebody goes out with a spectrum analyzer and does some investigating, it's impossible to know for sure.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It's been tried: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/16bay.html
> 
> 
> See also: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/32bay.html



Yes, this is *exactly* what I was talking about, and I've read these articles.



> Quote:
> Honestly, I'm already worried about your tower and wind loads, as the 4228 nears the maximum load for my tower. Maybe yours is a more sturdy model. But 2 4228s is a serious amount of weight, and if the wind hits that thing just right....



Yes, wind was the #1 consideration in locating the tower. Due to high downslope winds from the West, the tower is located next to the East side of the house. In fact just last week, I clocked an all time high gust of 65mph.


And, yup, I have a lot-o-crap on this tower. The biggest weight/wind load is the Direcway dish, and it'll be coming down, as the cable company finally added internet. The 'sidearm' antenna is also no longer needed.


In this pic, the 4228 was mounted in the best location for it(near the top of the tower). A friend has an old 7' parabolic dish, but due to the winds here, there is no way that I was going to attempt to put it on the tower.












> Quote:
> I think the most likely possibility with the jointenna relates to overload, but it's just a guess. Unless somebody goes out with a spectrum analyzer and does some investigating, it's impossible to know for sure.



Just for grins, we'll reconnect it and see if it somehow restores the signals that I once had. The JT combines the 'main' and the 'sidearm' antennas.


----------



## bbig119

I recently installed a fusion 5 lite in my htpc to tune OTA HD, and its been little more than dead weight. I can lock in all stations, but it seems I get much more frequent signal dropouts on on the htpc using the fusion than I do with my tv's OTA tuner.


I'm 7-7.5 miles from the antenna farm in philadelphia which are all broadcasting UHF . They're all coming from about the same direction too. I've got an old antenna on the roof currently hooked up, and I've bought a radioshack(15-2160) one to put up there when I get the chance thinking it might improve signal(considering the old one is rusted on solid and I can't move it an inch). I get decent reception using the TV's tuner with both the antenna on the roof and the new one, currently on the living room floor. I get frequent drop outs on the htpc with both of these antennas.


I want to be able to tune OTA HD without the frequent dropouts, mainly for recording purposes. From everything I've read, I shouldn't have any problems tuning the local channels. I do have several large trees that are well above the antenna on the roof which may be causing the problem. I also realize that I might be fighting with multipath problems and not low signal, but I don't know how to distinguish between multipath and low signal.


I've also toyed with the idea of getting a channelmaster antenna, but they're more difficult to return than the ones from radioshack down the street. In theory, I shouldn't have a problem tuning these channels with a dinky little indoor antenna(which I've also tried- a POS terk, and 15-624 from ratshack- the outdoor antenna are better).


----------



## holl_ands

bobchase gave some useful pointers on how to determine whether you have TOO much signal or not enough by watching analog NTSC channels:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...60#post6298960


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> with the SquareShooter separated by several dB below the group.
> 
> It also was a terrible VHF antenna, contrary to W-G published claims.
> 
> So why would anyone buy one, other than it "matches" their SAT dish???



Matches their Lexus and Sony..................


----------



## August West




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> SolidSignal would be my choice as they are (?were) a forum sponsor. Others include Warren, Starkelectronics.



To the poster looking for a CM 7777, I just bought a CM 7777 a few days ago from Solid Signal and it has shipped. I have previously bought from them with no problems.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> with the SquareShooter separated by several dB below the group.
> 
> It also was a terrible VHF antenna, contrary to W-G published claims.
> 
> So why would anyone buy one, other than it "matches" their SAT dish???





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Matches their Lexus and Sony..................



More like a Scion xB in Flat Dark Green with bird dropping highlights.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes, this is *exactly* what I was talking about, and I've read these articles.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, wind was the #1 consideration in locating the tower. Due to high downslope winds from the West, the tower is located next to the East side of the house. In fact just last week, I clocked an all time high gust of 65mph.
> 
> 
> And, yup, I have a lot-o-crap on this tower. The biggest weight/wind load is the Direcway dish, and it'll be coming down, as the cable company finally added internet. The 'sidearm' antenna is also no longer needed.
> 
> 
> In this pic, the 4228 was mounted in the best location for it(near the top of the tower). A friend has an old 7' parabolic dish, but due to the winds here, there is no way that I was going to attempt to put it on the tower.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just for grins, we'll reconnect it and see if it somehow restores the signals that I once had. The JT combines the 'main' and the 'sidearm' antennas.




If you're willing to give up uhf channels 40 and above, the best single uhf antenna I know of is the Triax Unix 100 Band A. You could diplex it with that combo through a CM 7777 and keep your vhf if you want as well. It's big, but still less wind load than a single 4228. MaxHD has two he might be willing to part with. If that won't do it, there's no single antenna that will and you'd have to do a stack of them.


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> More like a Scion xB in Flat Dark Green with bird dropping highlights.



Love it; ROTFLMAS...............

Is that the camouflaged version?











TotallyPreWired; Your pic ruined my day.


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

So, do you guys think it's OK to place the antenna right across the roof peak, wired on each side/end to keep it in place? I'll go hold it up there as a test soon to decide if it'll be "mounted"...


A question about coax: can most all of it be used outside?? I haven't really seen designations for outdoor or not. I have some white Radio Shack RG-6 around here that I'd use if it's OK... I see their current cable DOES say indoor/outdoor, but I didn't know if there was a special rating, etc. for it. It's regular RG-6 BTW -- quad-shield wouldn't make much difference, would it? I don't know that there's any interference where it'll run outside compared to in the house.










Also, after taking the antenna out of the attic, I noticed that there's a crack/cut in the twin-lead's insulation coming off the terminals -- don't know how that happened.







Should that be fixed if it was outside? It doesn't seem like it would be an issue as far as shorting is concerned, since the terminals are exposed a couple inches away.







But the copper wire might corrode in the weather, right?


Finally, I can just use a weatherproof F-connector (with silicone & O-ring) at the antenna without needing a boot too, can't I?


Thanks for any answers.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1) So, do you guys think it's OK to place the antenna right across the roof peak, wired on each side/end to keep it in place?
> 
> 
> 2) A question about coax: can most all of it be used outside??
> 
> 
> 3) It's regular RG-6 BTW -- quad-shield wouldn't make much difference, would it?
> 
> 
> 4) I noticed that there's a crack/cut in the twin-lead's insulation coming off the terminals -- don't know how that happened.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Should that be fixed if it was outside?
> 
> 
> 5) Finally, I can just use a weatherproof F-connector (with silicone & O-ring) at the antenna without needing a boot too, can't I?



1) Okay? Yes? Ideal? No. You want at least 6' of open "space" around an antenna to be ideal. But sitting on the peak of your roof outside beats being under the roof anywhere.


2) Yes, it can be used outside. Only the exposed ends would have issues.


3) Quad-shield can help with interference. But it probably doesn't make much difference in real-world conditions for 99.9% of the public.


4) Yes, fix any exposed wiring. It will corrode, quickly, and then your signal will degrade.


5) That's what my professional installers do, so I assume it would be good enough.


----------



## toenail

Thought I'd throw my observations of the CM 4228 into this thread since it seems appropriate. I have a Tosh 52HM94 w/ built in tuner. Had previously connected it to nasty rooftop antenna from previous tenant (25 yrs old?) and was able to get 5 local HD towers in the Providence RI area from within 10 miles ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, and PBS. Recently tho local FOX tower went down right in the middle of the MLB playoffs and I couldn't watch, so started researching reasonable antenna options. At $50 the 4228 seemed like a good choice. I mounted it to the same mast the nasty old one had been on and aimed it at the Boston market, 30* off axis from the Providence towers and located 40 miles away. Bingo! I get tons of digital and HD from the Boston market, including FOX and can now watch MLB WS without worry. Nice to have back-up channels in HD for all major networks. As a bonus, despite being 30* off optimal axis, I still get all the Providence market stations as before, without need to use the old antenna or a rotor. This thing's got pretty good gain and pretty good off-axis reception and suits me well.


----------



## Set

Hey folks,


I have a CM4228 and CM7777 that I'm planning on mounting in the attic, and have yet to find a sweet spot. I'm about 50-60 miles from the antennas I'm aiming for, all of which are within about 4 degrees of each other, so it's a pretty straight shot. I'm using about 100 feet of RG6 coax at the moment, but could trim it down to about 50 I imagine. I'm not sure about the roof, I know it uses the asphalt-based shingles, but am unsure if there's any metal under it. The siding is cement-based hardiplank, some of which I'd aim through in the attic in one of the possible mounting locations.


I've yet to get a decent signal at all in the attic, but when I bring the antenna downstairs near the tv, it gets a little better, though I still don't have a stable signal. There are some trees in the way, so I may be hitting some multipath issues. Tomorrow I'm going to try bringing the antenna outside to test it out, but wanted to see if anybody else had any ideas? Too much RG6? Roof and siding not letting the signal through? SOL?










Thanks!


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Set* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey folks,
> 
> 
> I have a CM4228 and CM7777 that I'm planning on mounting in the attic, and have yet to find a sweet spot. I'm about 50-60 miles from the antennas I'm aiming for, all of which are within about 4 degrees of each other, so it's a pretty straight shot. I'm using about 100 feet of RG6 coax at the moment, but could trim it down to about 50 I imagine. I'm not sure about the roof, I know it uses the asphalt-based shingles, but am unsure if there's any metal under it. The siding is cement-based hardiplank, some of which I'd aim through in the attic in one of the possible mounting locations.
> 
> 
> I've yet to get a decent signal at all in the attic, but when I bring the antenna downstairs near the tv, it gets a little better, though I still don't have a stable signal. There are some trees in the way, so I may be hitting some multipath issues. Tomorrow I'm going to try bringing the antenna outside to test it out, but wanted to see if anybody else had any ideas? Too much RG6? Roof and siding not letting the signal through? SOL?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!



Go outside, and as high as is practical. The length of cable won't matter with the preamp so I wouldn't worry about that as much.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...with the SquareShooter separated by several dB below the group. It also was a terrible VHF antenna, contrary to W-G published claims.
> 
> So why would anyone buy one...???



No one has denigrated the Square Shooter on this website more than I have, but it has the best overall rear rejection characteristics of any easy-to-install, gizmo antenna, combined with a horizontal beamwidth that allows it to serve as a rotorless, single antenna solution in a lot of metropolitan and suburban situations. I still think, however, that Winegard has a lot of nerve furnishing just a single, "Average UHF Gain" figure.


----------



## holl_ands

CM4221/4225 4-Bay Bowtie F/B specs are higher than SquareShooter above CH27 and slightly lower below.

W-G PR-9014 Corner Yagi F/B specs are higher than SquareShooter above CH35 and about the same below.


SquareShooter's primary "advantage" would be the slightly higher beamwidth than either of these antennas,

along with a significant disadvantage wrt antenna gain.


Of couse if you don't absolutely NEED the extra beamwidth, the wider beamwidth will also let in more multipath and other undesired interference.


----------



## AntAltMike

The CM4221/42225 and PR-9014 are not "easy to install, gizmo antennas". You have to install a mast to use those antennas. A lot of people would be in over their heads if they had to find a way to install a support tripod on a sloped roof, for example.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The CM4221/42225 and PR-9014 are not "easy to install, gizmo antennas". You have to install a mast to use those antennas. A lot of people would be in over their heads if they had to find a way to install a support tripod on a sloped roof, for example.



If you have to install on a sloped roof, how easy would a SquareShooter mount be?


The relatively heavy (10.5 lb) SquareShooter installs with 4 bolts....presuming you have a strong enough ledger board

or whatever to attach it to...that may or may not survive strong winds.


Any small mast mounted antenna can be similiarly attached using either a stand-alone "J-Pole" mount or a simple pair of brackets,

as shown here for various 4-Bay and 8-Bay antennas (which have higher gain, are a lot lighter with much lower wind resistance):
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages....html#POST3009 
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST20677 
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST20671 


You can also readily attach them to an existing Dish mount:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST18965 
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST18916 

Note that the above uses a dual CM4221 and CM4228 antenna system with a very low loss 2-port Lindsay Combiner.


And if you want, you can stick them high in the air to obtain additional height gain and lower multipath,

thereby greatly exceeding the performance of the low gain SquareShooter.


===================================================

If station directions are widely separated, maybe what you need is a multiple antenna system,

such as the dual CM4221 and CM4228 system shown above,

or the fol. triple Yagi system using the very low loss 4-port Lindsay combiner:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST16670 


A dual GEMDTV-1 or CM4221 system with a 2-port Lindsay combiner would cost about as much as a SquareShooter.


----------



## AntAltMike

I see the "forsandiego" thread participants are having a love-in with the Lindsay low loss combiner. In order for someone to uniquely benefit from such a monstrosity, they would have to be receiving signals from two different directions that developed only around -40dBmV each to need to eliminate the typical loss incurred in a $.35 hybrid splitter before preamplification. How often does that occur in the real world?


And even if it does, what about the countervailing, adverse effects of avoiding 3dB of reduction of the strengths of the stronger signals present? Some of the intermod products will go up by 6dB and some will go up by 9dB. Even though low-loss combining improves the post-combiner S/N of those anemic signals by 3dB, it increases the relative strength of the intermod products six or nine dB, so is the net result better or worse quality signals?


Channel Master says that if the output of a preamp with a two channel load is 54dBmV, then the intermod products that concern them are down by 46dB. O.K, then those undesired byproducts are at 8dBmV where they occur. Now suppose that, in the same system, there is a desired signal so weak that someone might be concerned that it will drop below, say, 20 dB S/N before preamplification. Then it must be at about -38dBmV and, even with 26dB of preamplification, it would be boosted to only -12dBmV. So how much is it corrupted by any in-band (meaning in-channel) intermod product developed by the strong signals with which it is preamplified? It is already getting creamed by it. Concurrently, if inadvertently, sustaining the signal strength of the strong signals will make the bad situation worse.


I'd say that, 99 times out of a hundred, a person considering using a Lindsay low loss combiner to couple antennas pointed in different directions would be better off preamplifying just one of his antenna inputs, or, for that matter, if he had an FSM and understood what he was doing, he could do an unbalanced coupling of the antennas using a directional coupler backwards, and incur a "pre" preamplifier loss of maybe 1.5dB or less on the weakest antenna downlead using a $1 part (like a -8 dB directional coupler).


As far as wind loading is concerned, Channel Master 2-bay and 4-bay bowties have twice and four times the cross section, respectively, of a Square Shooter, and typically, the tops of those antennas will be five feet above the fulcrum/attachment point, whereas the lever created by of the Square Shooter will be half that long. Admittedly, the Square Shooter is solid, but a funny thing about screens is that the faster the wind blows, the more a screen acts like a solid. I have installed some Channel Master 4421s on ten story buildings and the screens have been deformed enough by the wind that I have had to replace those antennas.


----------



## cpcat

In my experience, the Lindsay UHF combiner provides a small but reproducible improvement over using a splitter in reverse with horizontal stacking. I've seen a similar small difference with their VHF combiner as well.


The combiners are designed for stacking. I don't see the application for pointing antennas in different directions. You're better off amplifying one or both of the antennas separately through a power-passing splitter. All of this assumes the array even works to begin with. The only way it can work without filtering is if the second antenna happens to be positioned in a relative null for the other. Otherwise, multipath will potentially kill the signal.


Why are people so afraid of rotators?


----------



## Set




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Go outside, and as high as is practical. The length of cable won't matter with the preamp so I wouldn't worry about that as much.



Actually ran it just outside, let it sit on the ground, and ended up picking up everything cept NBC, so I may play around with it a bit more. I'm probably going to try and keep it on the ground since I'm getting decent signal there (and it'll be much easier for the wife to stomach there rather than on the roof







). It just amazed me though...I knew I'd be able to get better signal out there, but didn't expect just about everything to come in!


----------



## greywolf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Why are people so afraid of rotators?



Surfing becomes a pain and dual tuner recorders an impossibility.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greywolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Surfing becomes a pain and dual tuner recorders an impossibility.



I guess a "pain" is a relative term. It's not very painful for me to rotate my antenna via remote from my easy chair. It does take seconds to one minute to reposition the antenna. It wasn't that long ago that you actually had to get off your *ss and change channels.










Dual tuner recorders still work, just not from two stations simultaneously from two different bearings. Most people will still have multiple stations from a single bearing.


----------



## AntAltMike

Does anyone make a rotor that accepts discrete, infrared pointing commands, i.e., "127 deg"?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does anyone make a rotor that accepts discrete, infrared pointing commands, i.e., "127 deg"?



Yes. The CM 9521 which is available at Lowe's and most other CM dealers. It has a digital display (000-360) and IR remote. 3-conductor wire is all that's required. Bearings are selectable in one degree increments. It will also work with the more familiar "up, down" keys. In addition, it has a memory feature to remember specific locations for you. I'm fairly sure there's also one by Zenith as well.


----------



## dc_pilgrim

Believe it or not, I did search, and came up with some ideas already, just want to refine my thoughts a bit.


I had previously bought that radio shack HD tuner box, plus a SS, plus a $30 philips amplified indoor antenna from WM.


With the SS - the RS tuner got zero channels, and seemed to get about a 17% signal strength. With the amplified philips - the RS tuner got no channels, but around a 40% - 50% signal. I returned the RS tuner, and the philips antenna. The SS was bought online, so I hadn't gotten to doing anything with that.


Flash forward. I bought a Sony 30XS955 HDTV w/ATSC tuner. The Sony + SS got 2-3 DTV channels. I live about 13 miles from the Providence, RI towers, and 28 miles from Boston's. Based on the prior test, I am thinking the SS is not the best indoor antenna for me.


Should I - 1. get the recommended radio shack antenna Model 15-1880 ?

2. go get that Philips that I got from WM?

3. get an amplifier for the SS (if so, which one)?

4. something else (other than get an outdoor antenna)


We may go the outdoor antenna eventually if we decide to drop cable, but for now it would just be a backup item.


Thanks,


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In my experience, the Lindsay UHF combiner provides a small but reproducible improvement over using a splitter in reverse with horizontal stacking. I've seen a similar small difference with their VHF combiner as well.
> 
> 
> The combiners are designed for stacking. I don't see the application for pointing antennas in different directions. You're better off amplifying one or both of the antennas separately through a power-passing splitter. All of this assumes the array even works to begin with. The only way it can work without filtering is if the second antenna happens to be positioned in a relative null for the other. Otherwise, multipath will potentially kill the signal.
> 
> 
> Why are people so afraid of rotators?



When you point antennas in different directions, the standard hybrid combiner has about

a 4 dB loss for each antenna. The Lindsay is always 0.2 dB.


When you point matching antennas in the same direction, there is about 0.5 dB of loss in the

standard hybrid combiner, plus whatever antenna gain and phase mismatch loss that gets dumped in the

hybrid's internal imbalance resistor. The Lindsay is always 0.2 dB.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When you point antennas in different directions, the standard hybrid combiner has about
> 
> a 4 dB loss for each antenna. The Lindsay is always 0.2 dB.



This is incorrect.

Anytime you try to combine antennas that aren't phased properly, loss

occurs which is independent of whatever combiner you use. It is impossible to properly phase two dissimilar antennas which are pointed in different directions. It makes no sense to spend that kind of money on a combiner for that application when the majority of the loss will come from the array itself. Additionally, standard wide-band splitters have thru-loss of around .5-1db, not 4db when used in reverse. The 4db figure is calculated by the split (3db) plus thru loss.


If you amplify them (or just the one with weak signals) before combining, the loss will be still be there but you're more likely to end up with usable signal. If signals are strong on both, you may still end up with usable signal without amplification. This assumes that signal-killing multipath is not produced.


The best way would be to diplex them first (which is possible with minimal loss) followed by amplification if needed.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The best way would be to diplex them first (which is possible with minimal loss) followed by amplification if needed.



Other than the aforementioned Lindsay combiner, what combiner would you suggest(stacking application)?

....jc


----------



## PamP

For all you antenna and reception experts...I have an antenna on my roof that is probably 18 years old. It was installed by Davis Antenna in MD and we have never been really thrilled with the reception. Luckily, DirecTV offered local Wash, DC channels and we have been using that for the last couple of years. Then we got a HDTV plasma. Now we have very spotty reception on the digital channels. The weather doesn't seem to play a factor because tonight it is pouring down rain and I am getting an 85% signal strengh on the local channels but yesterday, they were terrible. Can someone tell me why it is not consistent before I call out Fairfax antenna to install a new antenna?


thanks, Pam


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Other than the aforementioned Lindsay combiner, what combiner would you suggest(stacking application)?
> 
> ....jc



Any wideband splitter with specs that indicate -3.5db on each leg will thus provide through loss of .5db when used as a combiner (assuming the specs are correct). This means that if the antennas are perfectly phased 2db of gain would be theoretically possible or a factor of 1.67x signal improvement over a single antenna. This requires identical antennas properly spaced with identical lengths of coax before the combiner and *aimed in the same direction*. In addition, beamwidth will be narrowed in the plane of the stack which can often be even more important, particularly if they're horizontal. Pico makes good splitters/diplexers: http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C5-C6.pdf 

RS makes a decent one I'm sure and you can probably find one with similar specs at Lowe's. They need to be wideband (at least 1 Mhz)


I'd still recc. that you consider the Band A antenna I mentioned previously (singly first) assuming you can give up uhf channels 40 and up. I didn't see much I'd watch out there over 40.


----------



## lovebohn

Has anyone ever used the Channel Master telescopic tower? I bought one but wanted to get a few tips before i spend a day messing around with the install. Thanks.


Dave


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PamP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For all you antenna and reception experts...I have an antenna on my roof that is probably 18 years old. It was installed by Davis Antenna in MD and we have never been really thrilled with the reception. Luckily, DirecTV offered local Wash, DC channels and we have been using that for the last couple of years. Then we got a HDTV plasma. Now we have very spotty reception on the digital channels. The weather doesn't seem to play a factor because tonight it is pouring down rain and I am getting an 85% signal strengh on the local channels but yesterday, they were terrible. Can someone tell me why it is not consistent before I call out Fairfax antenna to install a new antenna?
> 
> 
> thanks, Pam



What's your zip code? Do you have a preamp? A rotor?


You could call Davis again. The only people who are working for them now who were also working for them eighteen years ago are likely to be Buddy and John themselves.


----------



## AntAltMike

Not that I personally ever have to give a hoot about fractions of a dB - since I do all my work in metropolitan markets - but as I do the arithmetic, if a hybrid splitter does indeed lose just one-half a dB when used as a combiner (I've never experimentally confirmed that), then if two, stacked antennas each input 10dBmV of the desired signal into the combiner, and if 9.5 dBmV of each signal passes through, then 9.5dBmV plus 9.5dBmV equals 12.5dBmV, so the gain is theoretically 2.5dB.


Logarithms are funny things. When I was younger and had more neurons, I understood them better. Or I thought I did...


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

Stupid quick question again: does there need to be a good F-connector to SHIELD connection on coax to carry the signal correctly? i.e. does it need to make a complete circuit? (I'm thinking yes...) Would it not work if only the center conductor was connected?


I was testing earlier using old cable with twist-on connectors, which didn't work very well, but's all I could use, and I don't think they have much connection to the shield...


----------



## G.B.

If your trying to get digial you can not have a bad connection. So I use only the crimp end F connectors


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Not that I personally ever have to give a hoot about fractions of a dB - since I do all my work in metropolitan markets - but as I do the arithmetic, if a hybrid splitter does indeed lose just one-half a dB when used as a combiner (I've never experimentaly confirmed that), then if two, stacked antennas each input 10dBmV of the desired signal into the combiner, and if 9.5 dBmV of each signal passes through, then 9.5dBmV plus 9.5dBmV equals 12.5dBmV, so the gain is theoretically 2.5dB.
> 
> 
> Logarithms ar funny things. When I was younger and had more neurons, I understood them better. Or I thought I did...



Teach me how you are adding the dBmV values. Assuming .2db loss per leg (in the Lindsay) how would it come out?


Also, aren't dB expressed as proportional values whereas dBmV is actually quantitative? I guess I don't understand logarithms that well either.


I do understand that +3db is 2x and -3db is .5x and so on but from there, well...


----------



## AntAltMike

I didn't really add them. I just know that when something is doubled, it goes up by just over 3dB. You can't literally add dB. If you go back far enough, you may remember being told that you can't add with a slide rule either, for the same reason. There is no linear scale on a slide rule.


To combine quantities that are measured in dBmV, you have to convert from dBmV to some linear form of wattage, add those values, and then convert back to dBmV.


Consumer-grade RF equipment is commonly engineered to have 75 ohm system impedance, and so the dBmV used to evaluate those circuits is properly written dBmV(75ohm). It is the voltage necessary to develop one milliwatt when impressed upon the industry standard, reference impedance. Commercial-grade RF equipment is more commonly engineered to have a 50 ohm system impedance.


In commercial audio, dBmV typically means dBmV(600 ohm). The difference between dBmv(unreferenced) and dBmV (600 ohms) is 2.21. The difference between dBmv and dBmV(75 ohms) is 8.75, which is why the various conversion factors for dBmV and for microvolts to dBm end in 8.75.


I haven't had to calculate any of this professionally for over a decade and probably never will, because RF circuitry is so robust that no one working in the field gives a rats patooie about fractions of a dB. I've memorized the fractional values of about half a dozen common logarithmics, and I can manipulate them in my head well enough that I always come out to within a dB of the exact, calculated value of whatever I am trying to estimate, so I never need to calculate it any more precisely than that.


----------



## AntAltMike

So doing this the simple way, if each identical, in-phase signals drops from 10dBmV to 9.8dBmV through the Lindsay combiner, then they would combine to develop a signal power of 12.8dBmV. This primitive method works most readily when the two quantities being combined are equal.


I use slightly more complicated seat-of-the-pants methods to add unequal amounts. A 1dB increase is just over 25% more and 5dB is 200% more. Such knowledge can be used in seat-of-the-pants ciphering to readily estimate sums of logarithmically notated quantities that are accurate within a tenth of a dB or so of the exact, calculated values.


----------



## newsposter

Is a pre amp the same as an amp?







Obviously they are 2 different names but here's why I ask. I went to home depot and got an amp for 35 bucks that supposedly adds 25db. It has an FM trap and a knob to crank up the gain, though I see no difference no matter where the knob is. The antenna is in my attic and the way I have it now, there's a 6ft wire from the DB8 to the amp, then 50 ft of wire to the hd tivo. I see from the one web site that a pre amp has a connection on the antenna then one regulator inside the house to make the thing work.


so is the pre amp made that way(2 pieces) because you can't run AC up outside on an antenna? And is the amp I now i have inside my attic ok or will a pre amp help me even more in my situation? Oh and yes, there is a definite difference with/without the amp I have plugged in so I definitely need something for my cable run.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was testing earlier using old cable with twist-on connectors, which didn't work very well, but's all I could use, and I don't think they have much connection to the shield...



Twist-on connectors can work very well. However, the quality of your cable will determine how well the twist-on (or any) connector works. If you have a lot of wire shielding, then a good contact is easy to make. If you have very little wire shielding, it gets harder.


Basically, you have to bend back the shielding wire so that it contacts the screw-in part of the connector. Do this, and you're good. Don't do this, and the whole thing works poorly.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is a pre amp the same as an amp?



Yes and no. Ideally, you want the amplifier as close to the antenna as possible. With preamplifiers, you get a DC unit that is weather sealed, and an AC unit that converts the power to DC and fires it up the coax. With amplifiers, you get an indoor-only AC unit.


However, electronically, amplifiers and preamplifiers are designed differently, with different goals. An amplifier typically has more gain, but also injects a lot more noise into the signal. A preamplifier has less gain, but is much less noisy. Fundamentally, once you've exceeded line loss and tuner resistance by a few dB, it doesn't matter how much gain your preamplifier has. Amplifiers are less prone to overloading than preamplifiers.


For digital reception, a preamplifier, especially a low noise (2.0db or less) one, is superior to a noisy amplifier (which can have noise above 4db.) The reason is because you don't need a strong signal to get good reception, but you do need a clean one. The noise added by an amplifier is likely to confuse the tuner by increasing the error rate. Never buy a preamplifier that doesn't list its noise factor.


----------



## dr1394

For those interested in _correct_ information on dBmV, see:

http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm...mber/808/ln/en 


Ron


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For those interested in _correct_ information on dBmV, see:
> 
> http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm...mber/808/ln/en
> 
> 
> Ron



The information that cpcat needs to add dBmV can be found in "Table 2. Conversions of Power 75 Ohms".


Find each dBmV value that you want to add in the left column, then go to the far right mW 75 column, which is a linear measure of power, then add up those power values and go down to that sum in the mW 75 column, then go across to the far left, dBmV column and that will be the sum, expressed in dBmV.


The only tricky part, for those who don't recognize the notation, is that the mW 75 ohm values corresponding to 8dBmV through 28dBmV are in exponential form, so one would have to convert them by moving the decimal point the requisite number of places to the left


Table 2. Conversions of Power 75 Ohms
Code:


Code:


dBmV dBµV dBm 75 mVrms  mW 75 
  8   68 -40.75  2.51  8.4E-05 
  9   69 -39.75  2.82  1.1E-04 
 10   70 -38.75  3.16  1.3E-04 
 11   71 -37.75  3.55  1.7E-04 
 12   72 -36.75  3.98  2.1E-04 
 13   73 -35.75  4.47  2.7E-04 
 14   74 -34.75  5.01  3.3E-04 
 15   75 -33.75  5.62  4.2E-04 
 16   76 -32.75  6.31  5.3E-04 
 17   77 -31.75  7.08  6.7E-04 
 18   78 -30.75  7.94  8.4E-04 
 19   79 -29.75  8.91  1.1E-03 
 20   80 -28.75 10.00  1.3E-03 
 21   81 -27.75 11.22  1.7E-03 
 22   82 -26.75 12.59  2.1E-03 
 23   83 -25.75 14.13  2.7E-03 
 24   84 -24.75 15.85  3.3E-03 
 25   85 -23.75 17.78  4.2E-03 
 26   86 -22.75 19.95  5.3E-03 
 27   87 -21.75 22.39  6.7E-03 
 28   88 -20.75 25.12  8.4E-03 
 29   89 -19.75 28.18  0.011 
 30   90 -18.75 31.62  0.013 
 31   91 -17.75 35.48  0.017 
 32   92 -16.75 39.81  0.021 
 33   93 -15.75 44.67  0.027 
 34   94 -14.75 50.12  0.033 
 35   95 -13.75 56.23  0.042 
 36   96 -12.75 63.10  0.053 
 37   97 -11.75 70.79  0.067 
 38   98 -10.75 79.43  0.084 
 39   99 -9.75  89.13  0.106 
 40  100 -8.75 100.00  0.133 
 41  101 -7.75 112.20  0.168 
 42  102 -6.75 125.89  0.211 
 43  103 -5.75 141.25  0.266 
 44  104 -4.75 158.49  0.335 
 45  105 -3.75 177.83  0.422 
 46  106 -2.75 199.53  0.531 
 47  107 -1.75 223.87  0.668 
 48  108 -0.75 251.19  0.841 
 49  109 0.25  281.84  1.059 
 50  110 1.25  316.23  1.333 
 51  111 2.25  354.81  1.679 
 52  112 3.25  398.11  2.113 
 53  113 4.25  446.68  2.660 
 54  114 5.25  501.19  3.349 
 55  115 6.25  562.34  4.216 
 56  116 7.25  630.96  5.308 
 57  117 8.25  707.95  6.683 
 58  118 9.25  794.33  8.413 
 59  119 10.25 891.25  10.591 
 60  120 11.25 1000.00 13.333


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes and no. Ideally, you want the amplifier as close to the antenna as possible. With preamplifiers, you get a DC unit that is weather sealed, and an AC unit that converts the power to DC and fires it up the coax. With amplifiers, you get an indoor-only AC unit.
> 
> 
> However, electronically, amplifiers and preamplifiers are designed differently, with different goals. An amplifier typically has more gain, but also injects a lot more noise into the signal. A preamplifier has less gain, but is much less noisy. Fundamentally, once you've exceeded line loss and tuner resistance by a few dB, it doesn't matter how much gain your preamplifier has. Amplifiers are less prone to overloading than preamplifiers.
> 
> 
> For digital reception, a preamplifier, especially a low noise (2.0db or less) one, is superior to a noisy amplifier (which can have noise above 4db.) The reason is because you don't need a strong signal to get good reception, but you do need a clean one. The noise added by an amplifier is likely to confuse the tuner by increasing the error rate. Never buy a preamplifier that doesn't list its noise factor.



Very interesting. Sounds like the amp I have may actually be causing problems with noise. Maybe I'll get a pre amp after all. And try the rat shack one since it's local and can be easily returned.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 


Model: 15-2507


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Very interesting. Sounds like the amp I have may actually be causing problems with noise. Maybe I'll get a pre amp after all. And try the rat shack one since it's local and can be easily returned.
> 
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search
> 
> 
> Model: 15-2507



newsposter,

U didn't read sregener's post close enough:


> Quote:
> For digital reception, a preamplifier, especially a low noise (2.0db or less) one, is superior to a noisy amplifier (which can have noise above 4db.)



There is no way that a Rat Shack preamp has that low of a noise figure!

....jc


----------



## AntAltMike

The Radio Shack amp identified above is actually two amplifiers: one which looks like a 300 ohm to 75 ohm balun and is mastmounted, and one in the base unit, which also powers the mastmounted unit. The noise figure of the mast mounted component is much more important than the figure for the base unit, which is functioning as a distribution amplifier. I doubt that either unit has an exceptionally low noise figure, but have no practical means to check it.


----------



## newsposter

I assume you'd prefer I wait the week to get a

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...=&PROD=ANC7777 



But other than that, I guess what you are saying is use the home depot amp or nothing ...vs trying the rat shack one?


----------



## AntAltMike

Have newposter's needs been evaluated previously to determine what, if anything, he needs for preamplification?


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I assume you'd prefer I wait the week to get a
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...=&PROD=ANC7777
> 
> 
> 
> But other than that, I guess what you are saying is use the home depot amp or nothing ...vs trying the rat shack one?



Who knows what I am saying? I guess that sregener's advice is solid. And for about the same $$$ you can get a preamp with lower noise. That's all.

....jc


----------



## newsposter

I think I should wait until I get home tonight and give you all some numbers. I wrote down signal strengths for each channel and that may help you determine where I'm going wrong. Getting these signals in is the sole deciding factor on buying a new tv. If I can't get locals OTA HD, I'm going to have to wait for Q4 2006 for them to upgrade my HD tivo to mpeg4. I was hoping to get at least 1 yr out of this db8 and maybe buy a new tv. But DTV doesn't have enough for me to buy a tv right now


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think I should wait until I get home tonight and give you all some numbers. I wrote down signal strengths for each channel and that may help you determine where I'm going wrong. Getting these signals in is the sole deciding factor on buying a new tv. If I can't get locals OTA HD, I'm going to have to wait for Q4 2006 for them to upgrade my HD tivo to mpeg4. I was hoping to get at least 1 yr out of this db8 and maybe buy a new tv. But DTV doesn't have enough for me to buy a tv right now



You need to go to antennaweb.org and see what analog and digital stations are near you. We need to know how strong both the channels that you want are and how strong any nearby sources that could overload the amp are. You can't tell signal strength from your tuners display, it really shows signal quality not strength.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The Radio Shack amp identified above is actually two amplifiers: one which looks like a 300 ohm to 75 ohm balun and is mastmounted, and one in the base unit, which also powers the mastmounted unit. The noise figure of the mast mounted component is much more important than the figure for the base unit, which is functioning as a distribution amplifier. I doubt that either unit has an exceptionally low noise figure, but have no practical means to check it.



The manual for the R-S 15-2507 claims Noise Figure of 4.5 dB for VHF/UHF, but does not have any overload specs.


C-M claims a UHF Noise Figure of 2.2 dB for the CM7777, which is consistent with the 2.0 dB NF measured at CH30, as reported in IEEE Transactions on Broadcasting Jun04 article. C-M claims max output of 111 dBuV (i.e. 85 dBuV input) for two strong signals and 5 dB less for 4 strong signals.


However if you are less than about 15-20 miles from a nearby transmitter (give or take additional attenuation from intervening terrain or attic locations), then you need to worry about not only overloading the input of the preamp, but also overloading the input of the HDTV due to the high gain of the Preamp.


The Winegard lower gain, higher overload Preamps (e.g. AP-4700, AP-8700 and newer HDP-269) are better suited for operation in suburban environments.

W-G claims a UHF NF of 2.9 dB for the AP-2880 and AP-4700, which is consistent with 2.6 dB NF measured at CH30 as reported in the IEEE article.

W-G claims max output of 118 dBuV (i.e. 99 dBuV input) for 5 strong signals.

That is nearly 20 dB higher overload capability than the C-M Titan (CM7777) and Spartan series.


W-G's new HDP-269 (VHF/UHF spec NF = 3.0 dB) has a slightly lower gain, resulting in pushing the overload capability to 123 dBuV (i.e. 108 dBuV input), which is another 9 dB increase in overload capability.


----------



## PamP




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What's your zip code? Do you have a preamp? A rotor?
> 
> 
> You could call Davis again. The only people who are working for them now who were also working for them eighteen years ago are likely to be Buddy and John themselves.




Our zip is 22728 but we are closer to 22739. We called Davis about 8 years ago and a guy came out and said he couldn't do any better. But we have neighbors who get much better reception than we do. It's probably just time to replace everything.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PamP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It's probably just time to replace everything.



18 years is getting close to double the average service time for an outdoor antenna. I think you could do better with a new antenna, and preamplifiers today are much better than they were several years ago. You're about 40 miles from DC, so there's no reason (other than low tower location or low output power) to struggle with reception with a good antenna.


----------



## Oldandslow

I received some good information here about what was available in regards to antennas and amplifiers. As "pay back", I posted a webpage dealing with my experiences with the Channel Master 7777 amp, Winegard YA-1713 VHF antenna, Channel Master 4228, Antennas Direct SAG91 antenna, Channel Master 9521A antenna rotator, and the 30' telescoping mast from Lowes. Perhaps, this will help someone else make a choice about what to buy. I hope so.

My HDTV Antenna Experience 


I'll edit and add to this web page as time and need warrant.


Thank you for all that posted here,


Larry


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You need to go to antennaweb.org and see what analog and digital stations are near you. We need to know how strong both the channels that you want are and how strong any nearby sources that could overload the amp are. You can't tell signal strength from your tuners display, it really shows signal quality not strength.



Im 40 miles away from the Philly locals. Everything is at 130 except fox at 128. I have a DB8, which I thought would be pretty good for me as someone 1 mile from me has one and gets everything perfectly. Of course theirs is outside but I don't think that's my problem. I played outside extensively and because of trees etc, my current best position is in the attic. I've moved the antenna to every part of the attic so I'm confident I have the best pic up there.


If I dare a roof climb, I could get about 6 more feet in height. Unless you or I have a crystal ball, i'm not sure 6 ft will help. I know it wont hurt. But it's a big deal to get up there so I'm asking for input regarding multipath etc based on my readings. Gut says it will help though so hope for a dry weekend to get on the roof.


Here are my readings from my HR10 250 strength meter as the antenna hangs in my attic. Also I have a 25db amp hooked up 6 ft from the antenna to help with the 50+ foot run. Disconnecting the amp weakens the signal so it must be doing something


Code:


Code:


uhf  station  signal  power  height
26 (cbs3)    90-92      770/375
31 (pax61)   90-91       
32 (upn 57)  80-85      250/400
34 (wbye35)  80-85      358/377
42 (fox 29)  25-45      305/161
54 (wb 17)   70-71      500/354
64 (abc 6)   75-85      500/390
66 (65)      65-75      not digital
67 (nbc10)   65-83      560/377


viewing observations: uhf channel 34 and lower are great/steady/reliable enough to Tivo unattended/42 doesn't even come in/54 and higher aren't reliable enough to tivo and risk missing a recording and they go up and down too much. Thing is, 64 and 67 are 2x the power of 32 yet 32 is sooo much more stable


amazing that 64 and 67 are 2x the power as 32 but that's so much more reliable










Also there is some sort of police/ambulance tower 1 mile from me but it's not between me and the 130 direction. Not sure if that matters or not


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oldandslow* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I received some good information here about what was available in regards to antennas and amplifiers. As "pay back", I posted a webpage dealing with my experiences with the Channel Master 7777 amp, Winegard YA-1713 VHF antenna, Channel Master 4228, Antennas Direct SAG91 antenna, Channel Master 9521A antenna rotator, and the 30' telescoping mast from Lowes. Perhaps, this will help someone else make a choice about what to buy. I hope so.
> 
> My HDTV Antenna Experience
> 
> 
> I'll edit and add to this web page as time and need warrant.
> 
> 
> Thank you for all that posted here,
> 
> 
> Larry




thanks for the nice write up.


How do you stablize it up so high? I need to put a DB8 at least as high as my chimney. The antenna in my attic now just isn't high enough to get over trees. I really dont want to climb up the roof so would be happy to put 3 10 foot poles together or whatever I need to get up high.


I may have an advantage as I can use the part of the chimney that sticks out of my house to guide the 30 ft up . So the part not leaning up against the chimney support would only be a few feet. I guess I'd just attach the pole to the 90 degree inside angle and that would be pretty good against any wind movement.


I have what is called 'shaped concrete' or perhaps permastone. But of course concrete block is under there. What do you recommend to attach to such a surface?


Do you have to worry about an antenna being so close to a chimney operating 365 days a year? (will the db8 die from carbon monoxide or anything lol)


edit: after thinking about this, I guess I'd need some kind of support up higher anyway right? If that's the case, I may as well risk climbing up on the roof if i'd have to secure any longer poles i've made from the ground anyway.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oldandslow* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I received some good information here about what was available in regards to antennas and amplifiers. As "pay back", I posted a webpage dealing with my experiences with the Channel Master 7777 amp, Winegard YA-1713 VHF antenna, Channel Master 4228, Antennas Direct SAG91 antenna, Channel Master 9521A antenna rotator, and the 30' telescoping mast from Lowes. Perhaps, this will help someone else make a choice about what to buy. I hope so.
> 
> My HDTV Antenna Experience
> 
> 
> I'll edit and add to this web page as time and need warrant.
> 
> 
> Thank you for all that posted here,
> 
> 
> Larry




Nice write-up Larry.Those Quad-X style UHF antennas are the best I've used,and I've tried 'em all.Just think what four of them would do...always wanted to try this......

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/ANTENNAPICS/ 


I'll help you with an edit.Nice catch on WSIL DT.It's on channel 34 from Harrisburg,IL.Probably a little further than Louisville,Ky 


Greg B

Greensburg,In


----------



## cding

I am in San Diego North County and purchased a PR4400 antenna, I can received most of the LA OTA channels except ABC and KCAL. So I upgraded my antenna to 8-bay PR8800. But I don't see any improvement which I expect at least extra 10dB gain.


So my question to those have a PR8800 antenna, is there any tricks when assemble the PR8800, especially couple two 4-bay. Any difference between PR8800 and PR4400 on installation and assembly.


thanks

Chris


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cding* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But I don't see any improvement which I expect at least extra 10dB gain.



10dB of gain more? Um... no. Maybe 3dB in a perfect world. No more. (After all 3dB is a doubling of gain, and there's twice the antenna there.)


Maybe your problem isn't signal strength? How do analogs from the same towers look? Snowy? Ghosty? Both?


----------



## keepsmyling

Hi,


I have been trying to figure out which antenna would be best for me but am not quite sure. Can I have some suggestions? I went to the antennaweb website, and these are the channels I would like to receive. As you can see, the towers are within a 25 mile radius. I live in a housing subdivision with 2-3 story houses. I am open to roof installation as well as on a pole. Which antenna would you recommend? I want to get clear HD reception for the mentioned channels.


Thanks.


yellow - uhf WTVD-DT 11.1 ABC DURHAM NC 153° 20.9 52

* yellow - uhf WRAZ-DT 50.1 FOX RALEIGH NC 151° 20.7 49

* yellow - uhf WRAL-DT 5.1 CBS RALEIGH NC 151° 20.7 53

* yellow - uhf WNCN-DT 17.1 NBC GOLDSBORO 151° 20.7 55

* green - uhf WRDC-DT 28.1 UPN DURHAM NC 151° 20.7 27

* red - uhf WUNC-DT 4.1 PBS CHAPEL HILL 270° 23.5 59

* red - uhf WLFL-DT 22.1 WB RALEIGH NC 151° 20.7 57


----------



## newsposter

the more I think about this, the more I dont want to go on the roof. But I definitely need that height.


Anyone ever taken say 2 or 3 - 10 ft poles, and shimmy the antenna up from the ground by just adding them one at a time. If you got the highest wall mount up first, and got the antenna installed above that, to clear the mount itself, it seems it 'should' work. Then you'd just aim from the ground by spinning the pole.


Assuming the peak is 20-25 ft, i have no idea actually and would have to measure, I'd think the wall mounts at about the 14 ft and 7 ft marks from the ground could be ok. My 8ft ladder with me on it should get me to 14 ft easily. Then the mast would be rested right up against the roofline, providing some degree of 'support.'


comments?


I also have a porch roof that I could stand on to get some height for the mounts. Almost forgot about that.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyone ever taken say 2 or 3 - 10 ft poles, and shimmy the antenna up from the ground by just adding them one at a time. If you got the highest wall mount up first, and got the antenna installed above that, to clear the mount itself, it seems it 'should' work. Then you'd just aim from the ground by spinning the pole.
> 
> .



I've done it many times, but I've always guy wired the mast. A tall mast is a long lever, placing a lot of stress on the mounts. In addition to guy wiring, you must make sure the wall brackets are secure. I often use threaded rods through the wall with a backing plate on the backside, when I am installing a tall, wallmount mast.


After installing the first two ten foot lengths, it may be easier to use five foot lengths if your lowest bracket is only 7 feet above the ground.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've done it many times, but I've always guy wired the mast. A tall mast is a long lever, placing a lot of stress on the mounts. In addition to guy wiring, you must make sure the wall brackets are secure. I often use threaded rods through the wall with a backing plate on the backside, when I am installing a tall, wallmount mast.
> 
> 
> After installing the first two ten foot lengths, it may be easier to use five foot lengths if your lowest bracket is only 7 feet above the ground.




I'm ready to give up....JK....the more I think about it, I think of new things. I understand wall brackets must be very secure. But drilling through my 'permastone' freaks me out. I'd be worried at what point I'd hit a concrete block. If it was open space, I'd probably use toggle bolts. But if not, I guess just plain ole screws.


If a pole is up against a house, how do you guy it? to the house? I have a 6ft concrete walk all along the back of my house and would need to extended this into the yard and that's really not an option because of logistics I wont bore you with. But if i'm going to already drill into the house, I'd have no problems guying a few in that way.


Chimney and height is suddenly looking better. The scales are tipped, that's for sure. Reason: as long as directv locals in HD come in clear for me next year, this antenna is coming down. So it's not worth me investing this time/money to put up a big mast come to think of it.


----------



## UnderDaHill

I've been reading through this thread along with several other AVS threads related to HDTV, Antennas, and Windows Media Center. I've come to the conclusion that although I can figure out most of what I am trying to do, I do not feel that I have enough experience with the antenna/signal aspect of what I'm trying to do to make an accurate decision.


Here is what I'll be doing.


I'm dropping my local COX cable tv service along with my COX telephone service. I'm switch to vonage or packet8 for phone and will be using an antenna to pull in local HDTV and standard TV channels. That is all we watch now anyways so I'm not losing much by dropping COX other than an easy antenna mechanism.


Now here is where I'm having troubles. I don't know what do do for OTA reception. I'll be routing it all to my HTPC which will feed my xbox and xbox 360 over a wired network. The HTPC will have a standard tuner and an HDTV tuner. So I plan to run two wires from the attic (one from an HDTV/UHF andtenna and the other a VHF antenna). The idea is that I can have two (or possibly more) antennas in my attick pulling in as much OTA content as possible. The problem is that the VHF and UHF are both coming for two reasonbly disperse directions. I've attached my antennaweb results.


To further complicate the situation my neighbor has a line of wind break trees (the tall skinny ones) planted just south of my house and they have grown to be well over the height of my house. So I'll be trying to pick up signals through these trees no matter where I install my antennas.


Does anyone have an attic antenna setup suggestion for me. If all else fails I could mount an antenna outside on a boom. But I REALLY do not want to do that.


I also have a fairly small opening going up into my attic. I'm sure a CM 4221 will go up but the CM 4228 will not unless it can be disassembled (looked like it was riveted together in the one picture I saw).


Oh... The Sony KD-30XS955 is awesome. Can't wait to start getting some good XBOX 360 and HTPC content piping to it. Anyone know if WMVHD DVD's will play on the xbox 360?


Thanks,

bob


----------



## Oldandslow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> I'll help you with an edit.Nice catch on WSIL DT.It's on channel 34 from Harrisburg,IL.Probably a little further than Louisville,Ky
> 
> 
> Greg B
> 
> Greensburg,In



Greg,


Thanks. I've changed it. I was receiving several Louisville stations, at the time, and thought that was just one more from there.


Larry


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Chimney and height is suddenly looking better. The scales are tipped, that's for sure. Reason: as long as directv locals in HD come in clear for me next year, this antenna is coming down. So it's not worth me investing this time/money to put up a big mast come to think of it.



I used a chimney mount (basically, wire straps that "hug" the chimney) for my antenna for quite some time, and I've seen others hold up for years. They're cheap, effective, and work great as long as you don't go too high above the chimney. They also are non-penetrating, so they come down just as easily.


I can think of at least three reasons why local reception via an antenna is better than local reception via satellite. First, you won't get rain fade from terrestrial sources. If you're in an area that needs severe weather updates, it won't do you any good if the rain blocks your satellite signal. Second, DirecTV has done a lot of "data shaping" in the past, where they have compressed and overcompressed signals in order to get more stations to "fit" in their available bandwidth. "In theory" they shouldn't have to do this with HD LiL, as they have a lot of space up there, but as the saying goes, "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they're not." Finally, you won't be paying extra for the antenna, but you will be paying extra for Locals from DirecTV.


----------



## jmccrossan

Hi All,


Thanks for all of the great info.


I am planning to do my first install. I live within the LA DMA (about 41 miles from Mount Wilson) and wish to receive all of the ATSC broadcasts coming from Mount Wilson.


After reading through a number of posts, I have decided to get the CM4228 antenna as it seems to be a good choice to receive both UHF and VHF-hi broadcasts.


I currently have an antenna mast which I plan to wall mount. This mast has a 1.785 inch outside diameter. Unfortunately, I believe that the mounting arrangement on the CM4228 is designed to accept up to a 1.6 inch diameter mast.


Does anyone have any experience with adapting the CM4228 to a mast with a larger diameter?


Thanks for any help,

joemcc


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> If a pole is up against a house, how do you guy it? to the house? I have a 6ft concrete walk all along the back of my house and would need to extended this into the yard and that's really not an option because of logistics I wont bore you with. But if i'm going to already drill into the house, I'd have no problems guying a few in that way.
> 
> 
> .



Do a ground mount strapped to the house on the way up with wall mounts every 6-8 ft or so. This is a very sturdy installation and doesn't need guying as long as you don't go more than say 10 ft above roof line for most installations. If you have a particularly heavy antenna or higher wind load, I'd stay under 8 ft above the roof. Channelmaster sells a 30 ft. telescoping mast which works very well for this application. I installed mine upside down so the largest diameter section is on top. This also allows me to raise and lower the antenna easily by loosening the top section. I mounted to brick veneer with masonry anchors. The wall mounts are available from CM and your size will depend on your eave overhang.

The top attachment at the peak is an eave mount which I modified--the bottom bracket I had to cut the "ledge" off of to allow the mast to pass on down to the ground.


----------



## keepsmyling

I think I.ve pretty much homed into a medium uni directional antenna. What are some of he most popular models out there that people like? (42XG, CM4228...?)


Thanks.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jmccrossan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I currently have an antenna mast which I plan to wall mount. This mast has a 1.785 inch outside diameter. Unfortunately, I believe that the mounting arrangement on the CM4228 is designed to accept up to a 1.6 inch diameter mast.
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any experience with adapting the CM4228 to a mast with a larger diameter?



Mine is down, so I just checked it. It looks like you *might* be able to get it to work with 1.75" mast. *Might.* If it won't work you'll need to drill(or widen) one of the holes(top & bottom), and get a larger 'U' bolt. You'll also need a larger clamp for the pole('U' bolt goes thru it).

....jc


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keepsmyling* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think I.ve pretty much homed into a medium uni directional antenna. What are some of he most popular models out there that people like? (42XG, CM4228...?)
> 
> 
> Thanks.



Good medium range uhf choices include the CM 4221, Antennasdirect DB4, Antennasdirect 42xg. If you truly are at medium range( 20-35 mi) you can't go wrong with the CM 4221. It's decent for high band vhf as well as being around half the price of the DB4.


I'd consider the CM 4228 long range.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *UnderDaHill* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone have an attic antenna setup suggestion for me. If all else fails I could mount an antenna outside on a boom. But I REALLY do not want to do that.
> 
> 
> I also have a fairly small opening going up into my attic. I'm sure a CM 4221 will go up but the CM 4228 will not unless it can be disassembled (looked like it was riveted together in the one picture I saw).
> 
> 
> bob



First question: do you really NEED a VHF antenna, and if so, how big?

ALL of the VHF stations listed in antennaweb results are Analog, and their DTV equivalents are ALL in the UHF band.....for now.


In the future, when analog stations shut down (April 2007 is current proposal in Congress), nearly all of those VHF stations will go away, leaving the current UHF DTV station.

Exceptions to this trend are distant CH 8, 9 and 10 who have elected to operate DTV stations on their old analog frequencies.

Not very favorable: they are quite distant, you would need a rotator for CH9, you are too close to local transmitter to use a Preamp and hence would require significant UHF antenna gain (maybe more than the CM4228), and even then they may not be received reliably.....

Just doesn't seem to be worth the trouble when they are DUPLICATES of local networks...


As I see it, currently you don't really NEED a special VHF antenna to receive DTV, and pretty much any chunk of wire (incl. CM4221) will work for nearby Analog CH 3, 6 and 7 as backup for whenever the DTV equivalent is off-line.


Of course, unless you have room to install a rotator in the attic, you're going to have to point it in one direction...such as about 220 to 230 degrees to optimize reception at 20+ miles for WB and FOX.

You might get TBN network, but you probably won't get the other "purples", which are duplicates anyway, except maybe with a big antenna on an outdoor rotator.


The CM4221 might be adequate, then since antennaweb shows three DTV stations in the "blue" and you can't use a Preamp, you're probably better off with the higher gain CM4228.

You'll have to make these decisions based on reports from other people in the area.


====================================================

The CM4228 would provide significant gain for VHF and UHF channels and about as much as rabbit ears for nearby CH3.


To dissemble, the two side-by-side rear screens comes off real easy by twisting some tabs.

You would need to drill out eight rivets in the two cross bars connecting the two 4-Bay stacks.

The center feed would come apart by loosening two screws.


To reassemble in the attic, if you didn't want to bother with rivets, you could use screws/bolts in place of the rivets.


It all looks pretty easy to me.....and soon I'll see if I actually need the above procedure, when we upgrade my son's CM4221.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The CM4228 would provide significant gain for VHF channels and about as much as oversize rabbit ears for CH3.
> 
> 
> .




The CM 4228 does pretty well for high vhf (7-13).


It's very poor for low band vhf (2-6).


Fully extended rabbit ears will do much better for channel 3 and depending on their extended length will approach that of a channel 3 dipole (about 2dbi).

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The CM 4228 does pretty well for high vhf (7-13).
> 
> 
> It's very poor for low band vhf (2-6).
> 
> 
> Fully extended rabbit ears will do much better for channel 3 and depending on their extended length will approach that of a channel 3 dipole (about 2dbi).
> 
> http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html



See fol. posts for info on actual measurements performed by Kerry Cozad (Dielectric):
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST19916 

and see DTV ANTENNAS REVD for latest spec/NEC/measurement comparison spread sheet:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST20074 



Although you might be able to make a more effective oversize Rabbit Ear antenna (see above, where 2.15 dBi = 0 dBd),

these tests show that the CM4228 (2 dBd = 4 dBi) clearly outperformed commercially available Rabbit Ear/Loop antennas:


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> See fol. posts for info on actual measurements performed by Kerry Cozad (Dielectric):
> http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST19916
> 
> and see DTV ANTENNAS REVD for latest spec/NEC/measurement comparison spread sheet:
> http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST20074
> 
> 
> 
> Although you might be able to make a more effective oversize Rabbit Ear antenna (see above, where 2.15 dBi = 0 dBd),
> 
> these tests show that the CM4228 (2 dBd = 4 dBi) clearly outperformed commercially available Rabbit Ear/Loop antennas:



Those figures pretty much fly in the face of conventional wisdom and I'd say they're suspect. There's nothing in a 4228 that even gets close to .5 wavelength for low band vhf and I just can't see how it could be so.



The uhf gain he measured for the 4228 is on average 3dbd higher than Channelmaster's own figures. See http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg5.htm 

15dBd at channel 32 would be awesome performance. In fact, that's about equivalent to my 100 element Band A antenna. Don't believe it though, sorry.


----------



## Neil L

I have never done gain measurements, and don't really have the ability to do so. But, I have on the very rare occasion picked up an analog station that is 70 miles distant on channel 3, with my 4228. I can verify that the low vhf gain (if any) is nowhere near that of high vhf. I get channel 13 from the same area as that channel 3 anytime I look for it, day or night. All analog, the digitals are from channel 25 up to 52.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Those figures pretty much fly in the face of conventional wisdom and I'd say they're suspect. There's nothing in a 4228 that even gets close to .5 wavelength for low band vhf and I just can't see how it could be so.
> 
> 
> 
> The uhf gain he measured for the 4228 is on average 3dbd higher than Channelmaster's own figures. See http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg5.htm
> 
> 15dBd at channel 32 would be awesome performance. In fact, that's about equivalent to my 100 element Band A antenna. Don't believe it though, sorry.



Manufacturer's specs are typically for some fictious Gain called "Free Space Gain",

which is either calculated via NEC simulations or measured in an anechoic chamber.


When you actually place an antenna at some distance (e.g. 20-30 feet) above the ground,

then the measured gain increases somewhat due to receiving both the direct path,

the reflected path bounced off the ground and reflections from other nearby objects.

[Yup, these are major sources of multipath in the real world.]


Just one more reason an outdoor antenna placed well above the roof line is better than one buried

inside an attic and hence doesn't "see" the ground bounce reflections.


Therefore it is more important to compare one antenna to another under the same test conditions,

rather than to Free Space Spec values.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil Laffoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have never done gain measurements, and don't really have the ability to do so. But, I have on the very rare occasion picked up an analog station that is 70 miles distant on channel 3, with my 4228. I can verify that the low vhf gain (if any) is nowhere near that of high vhf. I get channel 13 from the same area as that channel 3 anytime I look for it, day or night. All analog, the digitals are from channel 25 up to 52.



If it was providing even 2dBi of gain on channel 3 (equivalent to a simple dipole) and assuming that's a full power analog, you'd likely be able to get at least a snowy picture almost anytime. It would probably be even a watchable picture much of the time. Low band vhf really gets out.


----------



## keepsmyling




> Quote:
> Good medium range uhf choices include the CM 4221, Antennasdirect DB4, Antennasdirect 42xg. If you truly are at medium range( 20-35 mi) you can't go wrong with the CM 4221. It's decent for high band vhf as well as being around half the price of the DB4.



Thanks cpcat. My signal situation is such that I can get most channels already with a little radioshack rabbit ears that was lying around. The signal strength stays around 30-60% on most channels. And here are my channel requirements (all within 25 miles):


yellow - uhf WTVD-DT 11.1 ABC DURHAM NC 153° 20.9 52

* yellow - uhf WRAZ-DT 50.1 FOX RALEIGH NC 151° 20.7 49

* yellow - uhf WRAL-DT 5.1 CBS RALEIGH NC 151° 20.7 53

* yellow - uhf WNCN-DT 17.1 NBC GOLDSBORO NC 151° 20.7 55

* green - uhf WRDC-DT 28.1 UPN DURHAM NC 151° 20.7 27

* red - uhf WUNC-DT 4.1 PBS CHAPEL HILL NC 270° 23.5 59

* red - uhf WLFL-DT 22.1 WB RALEIGH NC 151° 20.7 57


I dont think I can install anything on the roof/chimney due to restricted covenants. Will a good indoor antenna be enough for me? It not, I will just go with the 4221 as you suggested since I do not know any better anyway, unless you have some other suggestion considering this additional information. I do not mind paying more coz its a one time cost but I am looking for the antenna thats the best option for me. Once again, thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge and helping newbies like me.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keepsmyling* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks cpcat. My signal situation is such that I can get most channels already with a little radioshack rabbit ears that was lying around. The signal strength stays around 30-60% on most channels. And here are my channel requirements (all within 25 miles):
> 
> 
> yellow - uhf WTVD-DT 11.1 ABC DURHAM NC 153° 20.9 52
> 
> * yellow - uhf WRAZ-DT 50.1 FOX RALEIGH NC 151° 20.7 49
> 
> * yellow - uhf WRAL-DT 5.1 CBS RALEIGH NC 151° 20.7 53
> 
> * yellow - uhf WNCN-DT 17.1 NBC GOLDSBORO NC 151° 20.7 55
> 
> * green - uhf WRDC-DT 28.1 UPN DURHAM NC 151° 20.7 27
> 
> * red - uhf WUNC-DT 4.1 PBS CHAPEL HILL NC 270° 23.5 59
> 
> * red - uhf WLFL-DT 22.1 WB RALEIGH NC 151° 20.7 57
> 
> 
> I dont think I can install anything on the roof/chimney due to restricted covenants. Will a good indoor antenna be enough for me? It not, I will just go with the 4221 as you suggested since I do not know any better anyway, unless you have some other suggestion considering this additional information. I do not mind paying more coz its a one time cost but I am looking for the antenna thats the best option for me. Once again, thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge and helping newbies like me.




There's so much trial and error in this it's not even funny. That said, the Zenith Silver Sensor would be worth a try, especially if you could get it somewhere with a return policy. You've got the one station due west of you with the rest being at around 150 deg. (SSE) so you'll have to take that into account.


If that doesn't work a CM 4221 in the attic probably would. You might get lucky and get the one off-bearing station through the back.


I'm sure you know that you are permitted an outdoor antenna regardless of HOA covenants by law.


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

Do grounding blocks differ in quality, or do they degrade the signal at all? Is a $2 Radio Shack one OK? And can the grounding block be put *inside* the house right after the cable enters? (Properly wired, of course.







) I think I saw a post from greywolf that said it's fine.


I mentioned a few days ago that the twin-lead coming off the antenna has a small crack in the insulation... I'm not sure what the best way to repair it is. Some kind of sealant/glue, weatherproof tape... No idea.







It goes together when not bent, so I think I could almost carefully melt it back together with something...


Radio Shack has a transformer for $4 that comes with a boot, so maybe I should just get that and not need to buy the weatherproof connectors...


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Manufacturer's specs are typically for some fictious Gain called "Free Space Gain",
> 
> which is either calculated via NEC simulations or measured in an anechoic chamber.
> 
> 
> When you actually place an antenna at some distance (e.g. 20-30 feet) above the ground,
> 
> then the measured gain increases somewhat due to receiving both the direct path,
> 
> the reflected path bounced off the ground and reflections from other nearby objects.
> 
> [Yup, these are major sources of multipath in the real world.]
> 
> 
> Just one more reason an outdoor antenna placed well above the roof line is better than one buried
> 
> inside an attic and hence doesn't "see" the ground bounce reflections.
> 
> 
> Therefore it is more important to compare one antenna to another under the same test conditions,
> 
> rather than to Free Space Spec values.



Don't we wish that manufacturers all published free space gain, that is the most honest figure they could list. Real world reflections from the ground or nearby structures arrive at the antenna with typically random phase. Sometimes the reflections improve the antenna gain but they can just as easily degrade it. When the antenna height is correct to improve one channel's frequency it would not likely be correct to improve another channel. If you have only one problem channel, and if you have a reflecting ground (no UHF absorbing shrubs), and you take the time and have the mast height to fine tune the antenna location to maximize the problem channel's signal, then maybe the figure including the improvement with a lucky ground effect would be appropriate; but otherwise the free space gain is best. Real world measurements that include ground effect without carefully accounting for the change in gain that causes are notoriously unreliable. For that reason the ARRL now refuses to accept antenna advertisements with measured gain figures and instead requires the more typically accurate and honest free space value calculated with a program such as NEC.


By the way, one method to get reliable performance for many channels is with a vertical stack. This vertical diversity ensures that when one portion of the antenna is in a null (node) another portion is in a region with good signal (antinode). The 4-bay high bow-tie antennas like the CM4221 and CM4228 are examples of this principle. Another interpretation of vertical diversity is that the antenna has enough vertical aperture to at least partially attenuate the ground reflection (for instance if it includes an equal number of nodes and antinodes then there is a vertical beam null on the reflected path).


P.S. One reason that attic antennas often perform poorly is the presence of reflections from indoor structures- pipes, wiring etc.


----------



## greywolf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do grounding blocks differ in quality, or do they degrade the signal at all? Is a $2 Radio Shack one OK? And can the grounding block be put *inside* the house right after the cable enters? (Properly wired, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) I think I saw a post from greywolf that said it's fine.
> 
> 
> I mentioned a few days ago that the twin-lead coming off the antenna has a small crack in the insulation... I'm not sure what the best way to repair it is. Some kind of sealant/glue, weatherproof tape... No idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It goes together when not bent, so I think I could almost carefully melt it back together with something...
> 
> 
> Radio Shack has a transformer for $4 that comes with a boot, so maybe I should just get that and not need to buy the weatherproof connectors...



I've seen grounding blocks rated for frequency ranges. I've seen warnings to make sure to get 3GHz grounding blocks in satellite applications. I just don't get it. I've never seen any post about having to replace a grounding block with a better performing grounding block. I wouldn't be concerned. There is some loss whenever the is a connection. Again, I wouldn't be concerned about it.


The NEC says the grounding block is to be placed near the entrance of the coax to the building. Inside or outside is okay. I like inside because connections are not exposed to the weather. Also, with the block inside, only one drip loop in the coax at entry is needed instead of 3 since I don't like water running down the cable trying to wash the silicone dielectric grease out of the block connections.


What I would be concerned about is the matching transformer. I would definitely replace rather than try to repair a damaged one. I have an R/S unit right now since I have an R/S antenna. Knowing what I know now though, I'd opt for something else such as Channel Master et. al..


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> By the way, one method to get reliable performance for many channels is with a vertical stack. This vertical diversity ensures that when one portion of the antenna is in a null (node) another portion is in a region with good signal (antinode). The 4-bay high bow-tie antennas like the CM4221 and CM4228 are examples of this principle. Another interpretation of vertical diversity is that the antenna has enough vertical aperture to at least partially attenuate the ground reflection (for instance if it includes an equal number of nodes and antinodes then there is a vertical beam null on the reflected path).
> 
> .




I don't doubt the validity of this statement as it makes perfect sense, but I've tried vertical stacking more times than I care to admit, and have always returned to horizontal because it performs better (for me). Vertical certainly was better than a single antenna, though.


The other disadvantage to vertical (if you use a rotator) is you end up with such a long lever arm above the rotor. A guyed alignment bearing is usually necessary.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't doubt the validity of this statement as it makes perfect sense, but I've tried vertical stacking more times than I care to admit, and have always returned to horizontal because it performs better (for me).



Vertical does nothing to tighten the beamwidth (directionality) of the stack. Horizontal does. You also would lose ground bounce with a vertical stack, assuming it is beneficial.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Vertical does nothing to tighten the beamwidth (directionality) of the stack. Horizontal does. You also would lose ground bounce with a vertical stack, assuming it is beneficial.



Obviously vertical stacking tightens the vertical not horizontal directionality. The benefit is in losing the ground bounce. Unless an antenna is carefully located so that multipath like groundbounce is beneficial then it is more likely to degrade performance which is a reason for stacking. One would generally benefit the most by stacking in the dimension that multipath is a problem. The narrow beamwidth that results from stacking can require a rotor or tilter to allow fine steering of the beam's response.


Remember that adding random elements to an antenna will almost always degrade performance. Gound bounce is like adding an image of the antenna vertically. Unfortunately depending on the terrain the image is like stacking with a deformed copy of your antenna with a random length feed wire joining it to the real antenna. Moving the antenna vertically can usually only align the phase of the reflected wave for one channel. With multiple weak channels it may not be possible to find a location where the gain of a channel with ground effect is not significantly worse than the free field value. In that case the vertical 2 antenna stack can lead to an improvement of more than 3dB for the worst case channel versus a single antenna. Of course if horizontal multipath is the problem then a horizontal stack would be appropriate. Horizontal multipath also often has much greater time delay than ground bounce does. If the horizontal multipath delay is beyond the tuner's ability to compensate then the horizontal beampattern will need to correct the situation.


----------



## dc_pilgrim




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dc_pilgrim* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Believe it or not, I did search, and came up with some ideas already, just want to refine my thoughts a bit.
> 
> 
> I had previously bought that radio shack HD tuner box, plus a SS, plus a $30 philips amplified indoor antenna from WM.
> 
> 
> With the SS - the RS tuner got zero channels, and seemed to get about a 17% signal strength. With the amplified philips - the RS tuner got no channels, but around a 40% - 50% signal. I returned the RS tuner, and the philips antenna. The SS was bought online, so I hadn't gotten to doing anything with that.
> 
> 
> Flash forward. I bought a Sony 30XS955 HDTV w/ATSC tuner. The Sony + SS got 2-3 DTV channels. I live about 13 miles from the Providence, RI towers, and 28 miles from Boston's. Based on the prior test, I am thinking the SS is not the best indoor antenna for me.
> 
> 
> Should I - 1. get the recommended radio shack antenna Model 15-1880 ?
> 
> 2. go get that Philips that I got from WM?
> 
> 3. get an amplifier for the SS (if so, which one)?
> 
> 4. something else (other than get an outdoor antenna)
> 
> 
> We may go the outdoor antenna eventually if we decide to drop cable, but for now it would just be a backup item.
> 
> 
> Thanks,



To close this out - I bought a Terk TV5, and the Radio Shack 15-1880. Both out performed the unamplified SS in my case. In the end, the Terk was prettier - but the Radio Shack was the best performer, getting all the networks except a digital version of WB (I get a grainy analog version). The Terk goes back, maybe the SS, if I am not too late for the return policy.


I am very satisfied with this result.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Vertical does nothing to tighten the beamwidth (directionality) of the stack. Horizontal does. You also would lose ground bounce with a vertical stack, assuming it is beneficial.



The beamwidth is narrowed in the plane of the stack.


All this talk about "beneficial multipath" is making me queazy. Catching a reflected signal by non-intuitive aiming is one thing, but for me I'd just as soon not see a ghost and I prefer my signals arrive on time thank you.


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

Thanks for your reply greywolf.










I got some Coax-Seal from the Shack yesterday and it looks like that might work pretty well on the transformer's little insulation crack (I guess I'll use it around the F-connector too).


Now I have a couple more grounding questions.







I can put a grounding strap on the boom to take care of that, right? About the only other thing I have to figure out is the grounding wire to use... I'll have to see if there's #10 stranded copper with white insulation available (OK, I assume? for flexibility/looks), or get new white RG-6 with attached ground, if available...


Also, we now have the satellite dish and its grounding block on a rod on the opposite end of the house from where the electric service ground rod is (which is the one the antenna ground will be closest to, if the 2 are bonded). It's been that way for years







, but since reading on here that separate rods must be bonded, I might as well take care of that too. I will take about 55' to go across the basement, if that matters. Am I right to think that I don't have to actually run the bond wire to the service rod itself, but simply attach it to the wire that runs out there from a breaker panel? If so, what's the best way to do that since I'm not that familiar with methods -- split bolt...? BTW, there's 2 service panels with ground wires running to 2 rods ~6" apart. Should they have used the same rod?


Finally, for curiosity, what's the difference between using #6 to bond the 2 versus NOT using the satellite's separate rod and just running a #10 across the basement to the "main" rod (too far?); or, for that matter, using #10 for bonding?


Sorry for all the questions (I think I'm about done asking!







), but I appreciate everyone's help.


----------



## greywolf

I think you'll find the panels are bonded with heavy guage wire on each going to a metallic water pipe or being connected by metallic conduit or something like that. That takes care of bonding the rods. Giving the antenna its own ground rod provides a shorter distance to ground while bonding it keeps the rods at the same potential. Lightning arrestor systems use a number of bonded ground rods around a building for maximum protection. 6ga bonds are earth to earth while grounding wires are air to earth. Earth conducts high energy electricity better than air and you want to keep as much of that energy in your grounding system as possible.


I like the pipe clamp style of connection for masts better than strap connectors because they bite through the mast's anti corrosion coating and provide an air tight area of contact due to the pressure involved. When attaching a strap to a steel mast, getting metal to metal contact can be more difficult and bimetal galvanic corrosion can occur more easily.


A split bolt would be the way to connect two ground or bond wires. Again, check your local codes. The NEC says the following are permitted grounding points. (a)The building or structure electrode system as covered in 250-50. (b)The grounded interior metal water piping system as covered in 250-104 (a). (c)The power service accessible means external to enclosures as covered in Section 250-92 (b). (d)The metallic power service raceway. (e)The service equipment enclosure, or (f)The grounding electrode conductor or the grounding electrode conductor metal enclosures. The panel ground wire indoors with a split bolt attachment to a grounding wire or bonding wire is a fine connection but if you want to meet code requirements, I'm not sure if (c) covers it.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The beamwidth is narrowed in the plane of the stack.
> 
> 
> All this talk about "beneficial multipath" is making me queazy. Catching a reflected signal by non-intuitive aiming is one thing, but for me I'd just as soon not see a ghost and I prefer my signals arrive on time thank you.



Then you'll want to special order a "FREE SPACE ONLY" antenna and mount it in....well....Free Space.


Recommend you start Astronaut training....you'll be moving to the Space Station.

PS: I hear that it isn't very "free"....but there will be LOTS of DTV stations...too many actually....










The rest of us on terra firma will have to live with reality:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Recommend you start Astronaut training....you'll be moving to the Space Station.
> 
> PS: I hear that it isn't very "free"....but there will be LOTS of DTV stations...too many actually....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The rest of us on terra firma will have to live with reality:
> 
> 
> 
> ]



You can say whatever you want, I'll bet mine is still bigger than yours.










The "reality" is that random multipath degrades the signal and using the reflections to somehow pad the gain figure doesn't make sense. I guess you could just reset the zero point up 3db for everyone but I don't see what good that would do. Maybe a new gain convention could be invented and called dBc (dB Cozad)










Newer digital receivers may be able to take advantage of these reflections at some point, but for now that's still vaporware.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You can say whatever you want, I'll bet mine is still bigger than yours.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The "reality" is that random multipath degrades the signal and using the reflections to somehow pad the gain figure doesn't make sense. I guess you could just reset the zero point up 3db for everyone but I don't see what good that would do. Maybe a new gain convention could be invented and called dBc (dB Cozad)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Newer digital receivers may be able to take advantage of these reflections at some point, but for now that's still vaporware.



You are right that the gain results in one multipath environment are less applicabe to another multipath environment than the free field results would be. Both multipath cases differ from the free field case but possibly in the opposite direction. When a manufacturer like Winegard carefully adjusts the measurement set-up to increase the gain numbers they are making the results less reliable.


With a single antenna input it is mostly BS to say that you get an improvement by combining the multipath signals a-la the casper chip set. The reason for that is that when multipath causes a dip in the signal spectra below the noise floor at a frequency there is no way to recover that portion of the spectra. That fact and the case where the multipath lag is outside of the filter's adaptive range are the main reasons that multipath compensation fails in a receiver. So don't expect magical results from future receiver chips; the best that will happen is that the range of multipath lags (and rate of change of lags) that can be compensated may be extended.


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greywolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think you'll find the panels are bonded with heavy guage wire on each going to a metallic water pipe or being connected by metallic conduit or something like that. That takes care of bonding the rods. Giving the antenna its own ground rod provides a shorter distance to ground while bonding it keeps the rods at the same potential. Lightning arrestor systems use a number of bonded ground rods around a building for maximum protection. 6ga bonds are earth to earth while grounding wires are air to earth. Earth conducts high energy electricity better than air and you want to keep as much of that energy in your grounding system as possible.
> 
> 
> I like the pipe clamp style of connection for masts better than strap connectors because they bite through the mast's anti corrosion coating and provide an air tight area of contact due to the pressure involved. When attaching a strap to a steel mast, getting metal to metal contact can be more difficult and bimetal galvanic corrosion can occur more easily.
> 
> 
> A split bolt would be the way to connect two ground or bond wires. Again, check your local codes. The NEC says the following are permitted grounding points. (a)The building or structure electrode system as covered in 250-50. (b)The grounded interior metal water piping system as covered in 250-104 (a). (c)The power service accessible means external to enclosures as covered in Section 250-92 (b). (d)The metallic power service raceway. (e)The service equipment enclosure, or (f)The grounding electrode conductor or the grounding electrode conductor metal enclosures. The panel ground wire indoors with a split bolt attachment to a grounding wire or bonding wire is a fine connection but if you want to meet code requirements, I'm not sure if (c) covers it.



Again, thanks Pat.







The 2 service panels are touching, and there are 2 other ground wires going in or out of each, but I didn't look to see where they go, but nevermind about that, since it looks like they probably do bond somehow.







The wire out to the rods looks to be 7 strands of 16ga -- so would that be 8ga?? I guess connecting to that wouldn't be good enough for bonding (it's not more than 6' to the rods)?


Anyway, I checked at Lowes and 6ga solid was $0.40/ft.







I thought it might be half that, but that was an uneducated guess.







And it appears very stiff to work with.


It's the sat. dish with its own rod now, the antenna will go to the service ground. Since the sat's has been unbonded for over 8 years (yes!







), and we will be moving sometime, is there anything cheaper I can do instead of buying 55' of 6ga? I mean, anything would be better than unbonded, right? There's some 12/2 with ground here (not sure how long), and using those 3 wires together would be like an 8ga, correct?


Stranded 10ga (white) was $0.27, and I need almost 40' to go from the antenna to grounding block (I'll go "through" it to ground, one of your posts said it's OK); I'll use bare or whatever for the 20' or so to service ground. Then I saw the Shack has 40' aluminum wire for less and it *appears* white-ish in the photo, but I'm thinking that's wrong and it's actually bare... Besides, you shouldn't put aluminum with copper, at either the block or panel connection, right? (Though I saw some of the split bolts DO have a separator.) The sat. ground wire is aluminum connected to the copper rod -- would that explain why the wire just "broke off" the rod a few months ago (galvanic corrosion)? (Or the aluminum was/is too close to the earth.)


I'm not going to use a mast, but just tie the antenna across the roof peak (seems OK, no one said not to, and I'll have a few small sheets of aluminum on the peak for it to rest on), so I was asking about the strap since I can't use a clamp as far as I know. Then I realized they must be copper for use on water pipes, and that shouldn't be on the aluminum boom? Are there aluminum straps, or what should I do? If so, I assume they can handle a copper wire.







Ahhh, I don't know how it's all going to fit together when I don't know the details about parts, etc.










Oh BTW, I don't think we have any local codes here -- unincorporated, not "officially" in any city. We built the house ourselves (vast majority







), hands-on, and I don't think there was even an inspection of things (?).







But the one doing the wiring was an electrician-type, so things WERE done according to [national] code, I remember.


Well, thanks for any more advice!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyway, I checked at Lowes and 6ga solid was $0.40/ft.



While code calls for really large wires, I've never understood the need for it, myself. After all, we're talking about bleeding off static discharge, here, not carrying 2,000 volts. And if you look at the included "grounding wire" on most RG-6, there's no way it's 6ga. I personally have used single-strand, 16ga covered electrical wire and haven't had a problem with it. When my professional installers came, they grounded the tower, but said not to bond the grounds at opposite ends of the house, saying it would cause more problems than it would solve. No problems with that, either. All of this "to code" talk makes me think that codes are written for "worst case" protection, and few, if any of us, need that kind of protection. But I'm not saying that if you don't do it "to code", that everything will be fine (in order to cover any legal bases.)


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

Yeah, I get what you mean.







I'll see...


I think the large wire IS for in the event of a lightning strike, not just for static. Although a lightning hit would still do damage ANYWAY, so...










And the grounding wire only needs to be 10ga copper (the 6ga is for bonding). What comes on coax is 17ga copper-clad steel or bronze, I believe, which is the same "capacity" as solid 10ga copper, I guess.


----------



## greywolf

You really need to use a mast. Aluminum sheets will become part of the antenna's configuration, and not a good part, plus tying is not secure enough for outdoor wind conditions. I don't like that aluminum wire. It breaks and corrodes too easily. The chart at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge indicates that the cross sectional area of a 6ga wire would be handled by four 12ga wires. Don't skimp. It's false economy. You may not have had a nearby lightning strike in 8 years but you may have one next week.


It doesn't take much to handle static bleed. 17ga copper coated steel or bronze used in coax messenger wire is fine for grounding the mast. It is not the electrical equivalent of 10ga copper but doesn't need to be. The 10ga copper requirement for a grounding wire is way overkill. The 6ga bond wire requirement is vital though. A nearby lightning strike can cause a large potential difference between two grounding rods and a heavy enough wire to prevent that potential difference from traveling through your equipment is required.


See:

Preventing Damage Due to Ground Potential Difference
http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

About the mast... it's not just buying a mast, mount, putting holes in the roof, etc. that I want to avoid, but I have none of the hardware that came with the antenna (I could easily get U-bolt, etc.), such as the support boom. Don't know what happened to it. The aluminum sheets are only about 6"x9", just so it wouldn't sit on the shingles at the peak. I didn't know that just touching the boom (not elements) would make it "not a good part," since masts, grounding etc. touch the boom...







And seems to me (but what do I know?







) that guy wiring near the ends of the antenna to the overhang a few feet away (where the gutter would usually be -- no gutter on this section) should provide as much support as just a mast only in the middle of the antenna.


OK, I understand about the bond wire.







So, if 10ga copper is way overkill for the ground wire (good to know), which size should be used? 12, 14, smaller? And does that go for both the wire from antenna and the grounding block? Thanks.


----------



## greywolf

Just about anything can be used for a grounding wire for static bleed purposes. Be aware that using a heavy guage wire with as straight and short a run to ground is often recommended in case of a lightning strike. My feeling is that a grounding wire is about lightning strike prevention though and static bleed is the real benefit. If you get hit you have a problem regardless of wire size so not getting hit is the thing. Static bleed is the best way not to get hit.


Since you say you don't have local codes, check with your insurance company to make sure you won't have a problem with them before using any grounding wire not recommended by the NEC.


Metal in line with and near the antenna becomes part of the antenna system. A mast has a small cross section, is far from the element ends and is at right angles to the antenna plane. Metal sheets in the boom plane and metal guy wiring on the elements may hurt your reception. Try it and see if it work for you if you want. What's important is that it works. Remember that height is usually a good thing too.


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greywolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...The 6ga bond wire requirement is vital though. A nearby lightning strike can cause a large potential difference between two grounding rods and a heavy enough wire to prevent that potential difference from traveling through your equipment is required.



Greywolf nailed this one. Lightning strikes don't even have to touch the ground to cause damage to a house. Cloud-to-cloud lightning bolts causes a mirror current to flow in the earth. (A lightning bolt can have a hundred thousand amps flowing in it.) If your grounding rods are not bonded together, then a voltage drop will appear between them from the current flowing in the earth. Some people are lucky and never see the affects caused by this. Others (like me) have had to spend days repairing the equipment that burned up from improper facility grounding. Always bond your ground rods.


Bob Chase

KHWB-TV


----------



## AntAltMike

Unincorporated communities are often subject to certain state regulations that are passed just for that circumstance, such that they are the controlling regulations in the absence of any local laws. I remember seeing such statutes when I read the Maine state statues about twenty years ago. But as apractical matter, compliance regulation will not likely ever be preemptively enforced by anybody,


The purpose of mandating a minimum size for the mast ground is probably to better assure survivability. Otherwise, even a weak or nearby strike of lightning might melt it, but the owner surely would not realize that it had been broken. The mast ground must be either 8 gauge aluminum, 10 gauge copper or 17 gauge copper clad steel.


In the case of ground wires intended to shunt away high current sources, the minimum size was determined to assure that it had equal or greater current carrying capacity to the circuit it was to shunt the current from, as well as to assure that the resistance was such that no dangerous potential could be sustained between the two grounded items. The ground on the outside of the coax must be solid, insulated copper, approximately equal to the current carrying capacity of the coax's outer conductor but under no circumstance can it be smaller than 14 gauge. Otherwise, if a line voltage source were to come into contact with the outer conductor, as it might in a number of ways, like if an outside electical power line broke during a storm, the ground wire would melt first and then the current would readily flow along the coax and into the residence.


----------



## deconvolver

The best rule is to follow the NEC unless your local inspector tells you otherwise. The code is based on many years of investigating mishaps like fires and electrocutions and it is not a good idea to think that you are smarter than the code- even if it may seem to have a few rules that are overly strict.


----------



## cpcat

I just returned from Lowe's and it seems they've scaled back their antenna product section considerably. They no longer carry the CM 3041 preamp, the CM distribution amps or the CM 9251 rotator. I couldn't find any masting either.

Dissappointing.


----------



## greywolf

That's a good point about the grounding wire being strong enough to handle physical strain. It would explain why 17ga copper clad steel or bronze, 10ga copper, and 8ga aluminum would serve an equivalent purpose.


----------



## kflorek

I put up 2 antennas with rotors on my roof recently, and here are some comments:


I got a Zenith rotor from Buy-com and a Magnavox rotor from SummitSource-com. They use the identical antenna motor. The paint is a little different shade, and the enamel on the motor wire is a different shade. The packing in the box is also identical. The outer casing is cast aluminum, the bottom access plate is steel.


The controller of the Magnavox's is operated by turning a knob, and the Zenith is electronic. The 3 conductor rotor wire delivers a low voltage AC current (about 18 Volts).



I prefer the knob controller, and it is cheaper. The controller is some sort of motor/transformer that turns to sync with the knob, and while it does, the outside motor turns correspondingly. I don't really know much about the principle of operation, but I believe the two motors, inside and outside, are "phase locked", keeping them in sync except when there may be an extreme load on the outside one, such as from high winds or rotating to the end stops. The controller's motor makes a quite prominent buzz while it is activated.


The Zenith is silent. It can be operated by buttons on the set-top box or with a remote control. There are red LED digits for indicators. Two digits show the angle of rotation divided by 10, that is they go from 0 to 36 as the angle of the antenna goes form 0 to 360. A separate, single LED displays the "program," from alphabetical "a" to "L" (12 programs.) You program it by moving the antenna to a position (by C/CCW buttons), pressing the memory button, then a button from a to L. Pressing a button from a to L by itself makes the rotor go to a programmed position. The programming is retained if the controller is unplugged. There is an "intialize' button so that you can sync the outside with the inside without having to hold down the C/CCW buttons for a minute. If you unplug it, the display goes to 36 regardless of where it was before.


I picked the Zenith over an electronic Channel Master because (1) the Zenith can be operated from the box as well as with a remote, while the Channel Master is by remote only, and (2) the Zenith has an internal power supply, versus one of those PITA external transformer/plugs for the CM. My reading of materials also gave me the impression at the time that the CM did not hold its programming when the power was removed, but I saw later somewhere that it does.


I've always had good luck with Buy-com and the shipped price was vitually the same as, or lower than the many, many other places that carry this Zenith. As is typical from good suppliers, it took 2-3 days for ground shipping from California to here.


SummitSource got the Magnavox (and rotor cables) here fabulously the next day with ground shipping. It seems to be located at the opposite end from me on one one of UPS's standard hops. Unfortunately the rotor motor was defective and it took 26 days to eventually get a working unit, most of that waiting for replies to 2 sets of 3 emails, since it only took 1 day as well to get the return back to them via UPS ground. That was with them sending me back the same unit once, "checked out and working fine," but actually still defective as before. The original unit appeared to be "pre-owned", because the small parts bags were opened before I got it. It was in like-new condition, except for a mysterious glob of tenacious white goo on the cord, which I think is sometimes done to mark refurbs. (Incidently, the date of manufacture on the label was 1998.) The final unit worked just fine, but it had a slight chip out of the casting and minor scratches, like someone had dropped it on a concrete floor and it slid a ways. I was very happy to get it, because by that time I was believing they were giving me the run-around. The price of this Magnavox unit shipped from Buy-com was only about $3 more, as I recall. What actually tipped the deal toward SummitSource was the two 75 foot rotor cables, which were way cheaper, and only a few pennies more for shipping. It would have been a good deal if it had worked right.


The Magnavox did not have a warranty of any kind, on the box or inside it. Nothing. I never encountered anything like that before. The Zenith specifies a lifetime warranty on the box. The warranty is by returning to the seller. Somehow I doubt if a retailer will be accepting warranty returns of, say, ten year old units. Anybody know of a successful return along those lines? Nevertheless, it is better to have some warranty rather than none.


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

Thanks for the additional posts guys.










I went ahead and got 12ga stranded for the ground wire. Home Depot is cheaper than Lowes here -- they have stranded 6ga for the same price as Lowes' solid... I'll get that then after I see exactly how much I need.


I haven't found a grounding strap for the boom yet (forgot to check at Lowes







). So I picked up a bronze clamp that I thought I might be able to put on there. Now I think I could've gotten a smaller one, which was... zinc (?).


What "device" would you suggest to attach the ground to the square boom? Does the bronze or zinc, in the case of these clamps, act as a proper "separator" between the aluminum and copper? (I don't totally get what's needed to prevent corrosion...; and since our dish's aluminum ground is on the copper rod, I guess THAT IS that why it just broke off after all these years).


Regarding bolting the 6ga bond wire to the service panel grounds: since they appear to be 8ga (7 strands of 16ga), that would defeat the purpose, right? BUT, I thought since there's a wire for each rod/panel, will it work to bolt to BOTH of them? Should be the equivalent cross section of 5ga...


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kflorek* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I put up 2 antennas with rotors on my roof recently, and here are some comments:
> 
> 
> 
> I picked the Zenith over an electronic Channel Master because (1) the Zenith can be operated from the box as well as with a remote, while the Channel Master is by remote only, .




Thanks for the info. FYI the CM 9251 rotator *can* be controlled via the controller box (up and down degree function) as well as the remote. Position is also selectable in one degree increments (via remote only).


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I haven't found a grounding strap for the boom yet
> 
> 
> Regarding bolting the 6ga bond wire to the service panel grounds: since they appear to be 8ga (7 strands of 16ga), that would defeat the purpose, right? BUT, I thought since there's a wire for each rod/panel, will it work to bolt to BOTH of them? Should be the equivalent cross section of 5ga...



The boom doesn't have to be grounded, according to the letter of the code. The mast does. One electrical inspector once wouldn't let me simply ground the bracket supporting the mast because it wasn't the mast.


I don't know if connecting to two 8-gauge wires satisfies the requirement of connecting to one 6 gauge wire, since, during a surge, there is no assurance that the current will be divided equally and theoretically at least, the one carrying the bulk of the current could prove to be insufficient and melt. It certainly would be durable enough for me to be able to sleep soundly if I lived in a house with a system so grounded, however.


How did you determine that the service panel ground strands were 16 gauge? What is the strand composition of 6-gauge stranded wire?


----------



## grimse

New guy here so excuse if an answer is posted elswhere, I looked and couldn't find it.


DTV installed new dish and OTA 'wing' for local stations, I get some but not the weak ones. A friend gave me a CM-4228 and when I connect it to the OTA cable (diplexed with a satellite cable) it kills one of my satellite signals.


Anyone have thoughts? Balun bad? Antenna shorting out? ??


Thanks in advance.


----------



## greywolf

Probably a bad diplexer. Not uncommon.


----------



## grimse

Greywolf,

I would agree with you that the diplexer is bad, except for the fact that it is working with the Wingard antenna now. I'm confused if it works with one but not another.


Thanks,

Mark


p.s. Go SOX!


----------



## AntAltMike

Is the OTA "wing" amplified? If it is, then the diplexer that came with it passes power on both legs, and if it is used with a non-amplified antenna that uses a balun, then the balun will load down the LNB power source. This will almost surely knock out the satellite even transponders.


----------



## kflorek




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info. FYI the CM 9251 rotator *can* be controlled via the controller box (up and down degree function) as well as the remote. Position is also selectable in one degree increments (via remote only).



I didn't do justice to the CM, if people are looking for a review of it. The only particulars I mentioned were those that explain why I picked the Zenith. Here are more comments:


I expect that most people would go for the CM, hands down. Not the least reason is that the CM rotor, in it's old electro-mechanical version, has a long term, near-legendary record. For instance, before I moved to this house, I used that particular rotor for 25 years in the former house, and it still worked the same as it did new. (Yes, I went through a couple of antennas, a couple of masts, and a few downleads.) I would think the antenna motor of the electronic version could be as durable.


Since I do not have a CM 9251 rotor, I can't really judge it, but here is some more info. Although both the CM and Zenith are programmable, the user interfaces are totally different. The CM selects programs (preset antenna positions) by numbers. There is a number for every broadcast channel. True, no one is going have that many different antenna positions, but with the overkill you can just use the same number for the program as the channel. For people with a lot of positions, say over 4, it is going to be much frendlier than the Zenith system. The 12 Zenith programs may be more than anyone will have a use for, but that requires you to remember what letter goes with a particular channel (or write them down.)


I wondered why Zenith went with letters when they could have used numbers, considering 7 segment LEDs do not form very good letters. Maybe because it is confusing to remember that a number goes with some other number, rather than with some letter. Maybe because you only need to hit one button, not two.


As mentioned by cpcat, the CM will also take direct entry in degrees, if you like; the Zenith won't. The capability could come in handy finding weak or new stations. Just get the position from antennaweb-org.


The CM displays all three digits needed to specify 0 to 360 degrees. The Zenith oddly cuts corners and just displays the first two. Zenith does seem to keep the exact position in the programs though.


I guess the two buttons on the CM set-top-box does allow it to be operated from the box, in a basic way suitable for a back up. You have to hold the buttons until the antenna gets to its correct position. Even with the electro-mechanical Magnavox, you just turn the knob and leave it. It rotates into the designated position on its own. With the Zenith, programs can be selected at the box, and the antenna motor synced at the box. You don't have to stand there waiting with your finger on a button for 70 seconds. It can also be programmed at the box.


Despite all the remote controls, I usually gravitate to the buttons on the object itself. Therefore I like gadgets to have the controls on them if at all possible.


None of the differences will be a big deal for most people. Then it will come down to price and idiosyncratic likes and dislikes.


In point of fact the rudimentary Magnavox will be MY rotor for MY TV. The Zenith will be for the main TV of the house, mainly used by others. I like gadgets, but I'm so saturated with 'em already, I really don't want another one just to have it. In the end, the possible additional capablilties of an electronic rotor have so little practical value to me that I passed. I was worried that the Magnavox might be "too" chintzy on account of the price, but it turns out to have the identical antenna motor.


The frendliest interface of all would be a remote with a rotating knob like the old CM's or the Magnavox.


----------



## cmk

I currently have a CM4228 antenna in my attic. I am having multipath issues with it. Just for a test I borrowed my Dad's Silver Sensor. To my amazement the Silver Sensor is outperforming my CM4228. I am baffled. I am going to try to relocate the CM to a higher spot. My struggle is the CM is so big I either need to try to take it apart of cut a bigger hole in the plywood to get the the point in the attic I want to relocate it too. Has anyone ever heard of a SS outperforming CM4228. That little antenna is amazing.


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The boom doesn't have to be grounded, according to the letter of the code. The mast does. One electrical inspector once wouldn't let me simply ground the bracket supporting the mast because it wasn't the mast.



Grounding the mast DOES ground the boom since they're obviously connected. Else static would build up in the boom...


I just realized last night that it looks like I can bolt my grounding clamp through the boom's U-bolt holes. I originally thought I was going to put the grounding strap, or whatever, on the lower wing-boom, but I don't know that that's a good idea to have the extra metal "in" the UHF portion, so this seems better.



Is having the stranded ground wire (the stripped end since I wanted white) exposed in the weather going to make it corrode, etc. more than a solid one? I suppose... Anything to do to for protection?




> Quote:
> How did you determine that the service panel ground strands were 16 gauge? What is the strand composition of 6-gauge stranded wire?



I can tell the gauge just by looking.







No, I checked to see which hole in the wire stripper a strand would fit in.







I think different ones use different numbers/sizes of strands for the desired flexibility, so I don't know about 6ga. The 12ga I got seems to have 18-20 strands.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kflorek* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I guess the two buttons on the CM set-top-box does allow it to be operated from the box, in a basic way suitable for a back up. You have to hold the buttons until the antenna gets to its correct position. Even with the electro-mechanical Magnavox, you just turn the knob and leave it. It rotates into the designated position on its own. With the Zenith, programs can be selected at the box, and the antenna motor synced at the box. You don't have to stand there waiting with your finger on a button for 70 seconds. It can also be programmed at the box.
> 
> 
> Despite all the remote controls, I usually gravitate to the buttons on the object itself. Therefore I like gadgets to have the controls on them if at all possible.



The CM actually has 3 buttons, the third being "sync" which doesn't require 70 seconds of button pushing.










I think most of us would prefer not to get up from our lazy chair, walk across the room, and turn a knob in order to change channels. That is so.... 1970s.










Part of the reason I went with the CM remote was because it was the only motor that was different. All the others come from the same factory in China, and my original rotor lasted less than two years from them. Believe me, it wasn't a happy day when I risked an icy roof to turn the antenna from its locked-up position as a stop-gap until spring when I could replace the rotor safely. Months of staticy, poor reception convinced me I needed a motor that would last.


----------



## ssabripo

Ok Guys....I need your hand here, as I am now stuck and confused:


as some of you know, hurricane wilma caused some major problems to us here in south florida, and my house suffered some damage...one of the casualties was my HDTV antenna which I had on the roof, which was an RCA ANT711:










Anyways, I spent the whole day installing two antennas from Channel master: the 3018, and the 3020:









Niether of these worked as good as my old antenna, because they were not able to get the West Palm beach channels...my guess is that this has to do with the fact that they are directional.


Now, here is a pic of what my location is like...as you can see, I need to get some channels to my south-southeast, and some to my north-northeast......thus, I need an antenna that will be able to pick those up (clik to enlarge):
 


My question is then, what antenna should I get? At worst, I will just get another RCA to replace the one I had, but the problem is that it is made of plastic, and it wasn't very sturdy...it would also be intermitent in strong winds and heavy rain. I know I need a multidirectional antenna, so I don't know what to do, or what to get....


ps- the max distance is 33.5 miles to the north-northeast


----------



## grimse

Thank you both for helping!

Yes the wing is amplified or at least a sticker says so. So do I need a different connector from the RG-6 cable to the two leads on the 4228?


----------



## UnderDaHill

ok... I'm making progress on my setup.


I've got the Windows Media Center software and will be installing that tonight along with a Fusion5 HDTV tuner card and Hauppage(sp) 150mce standard def tuner card. The first gen Xbox now has a media center extender DVD and remote (will be used on 30" widescreen until the xbox 360 is released).


I've got a coax line running up to the attic from the basement (where the computer is located). That line will attach to whatever uhf/vhf antennas I pick. Now here is the question.


I use COX broadband service. That will be the only part of the COX service I'll have after I drop their basic cable service. My question is can I combine my antenna signal line with the COX line coming into the house that has the broadband signal on it and then just route that singal all over house with the existing coax network that COX installed?


I'm wondering if that will cause issues or if I'll have to have some sort of splitter to peel off the broadband signal for the antenna signal before routing that to the cable modem and/or tuner cards OR if the cable modem and tuner cards will ignore the inappropriate parts of the signal. Can I combine them? Will this degrade or compromise the broadband and/or uhf/vhf signals?


Suggestions?


I'm trying to avoid having to run another coax line from the patch area in my laundry room out to the computer for the uhf/vhf signal. I'd like to use the existing cable to carry both signals to the computer if possible.


----------



## greywolf

CATV and antenna signals cannot run over the same line. They cover pretty much the same frequency range.


----------



## UnderDaHill

Doh! So much for using one line to get both signals to my PC.


ANyone else have any suggestions? Could I run the signal from the attic to the basement and then have a rebroadsaster or something in the laundry room to pump the signal out so a small antenna at the PC could pick up the internal uhf/vhf signal?


----------



## greywolf

How about an A/B switch to switch to choose between CATV and OTA?


----------



## ctdish

You need this, a DC block between the diplexor and antenna: http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search


----------



## Jim5506




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ssabripo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ok Guys....I need your hand here, as I am now stuck and confused:
> 
> 
> as some of you know, hurricane wilma caused some major problems to us here in south florida, and my house suffered some damage...one of the casualties was my HDTV antenna which I had on the roof, which was an RCA ANT711:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyways, I spent the whole day installing two antennas from Channel master: the 3018, and the 3020:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Niether of these worked as good as my old antenna, because they were not able to get the West Palm beach channels...my guess is that this has to do with the fact that they are directional.
> 
> 
> Now, here is a pic of what my location is like...as you can see, I need to get some channels to my south-southeast, and some to my north-northeast......thus, I need an antenna that will be able to pick those up (clik to enlarge):
> 
> 
> 
> My question is then, what antenna should I get? At worst, I will just get another RCA to replace the one I had, but the problem is that it is made of plastic, and it wasn't very sturdy...it would also be intermitent in strong winds and heavy rain. I know I need a multidirectional antenna, so I don't know what to do, or what to get....
> 
> 
> ps- the max distance is 33.5 miles to the north-northeast



DUDE, you've got 19 digitals to choose from, pity those of us who have only 3 or 4!


If your omnidirectional antenna was performing satisfactorily for you, get another just like it if you can. Only 5 of your 19 digitals are NNE of you , the other 14 are SSE, if you go with a directional antenna, shoot for the 14, or add a rotator and get'em all.


----------



## wanger

hey guys, I have a really old coxial cable that is probably 10 years or older. I recently bought a hdtv, and I want to be able to watch hd channels with my ota antenna. However, will I need a new set of coxial cables to be able to watch digital and hd channels?? Thanks in advance!


----------



## newsposter

RG6 is always better than the old rg 59 you probably have. But the only sure test is hook it up, if it stinks, re-wire, if it doesn't....well...no need to rewire in theory but I never heard of new wire degrading a signal, only improving it







I guess it would depend on how easy it is to rewire. If it's easy, I'd spend the bucks to lay in new wire no matter what.


----------



## bernieoc

I would like to try a complex situation on you. In Altavista (high point in town)I have Roanoke at 285 deg 47 miles and Lynchburg at 315deg 23 miles a 30 deg spread.

With RS combo VU190xr pointed at about 307 deg I get all with Roanoke 18 and 3 on the edge.Tried pre amp CM7777 with no effect I am looking into edge of a tree on another property (200 yds). Wind can be a problem so I am clearly working with some reflected signals.

Going toward Roanoke at 285 deg puts me into heavy nearby trees and more problems and if far enough a loss of Lynchburg ch34. Otherwise Lynchcburg 20 and 34 are very forgiving. Aiming more toward Lynchburg takes me out of the tree but start losing Roanoke (first 18 & 3)

I would like to enhance my 307deg aim with a better UHF to improve 18 from Roanoke and have all UHF without Rotor and even play around more to improve all without worrying about ch3.

For ch 3 I will use a separate VHF and find its best spot and combine both with CM7777.


How about CM4221 and Wineguard low vhf 1026. Or 4228 or w8800 (good on low uhf)

or XG91 and for vhf Wade single ch 3, or even a better combo ?

I am very close now,you can see why I am confused. More gain -less gain- wide beam - narrow beam.

Thanks for your advise


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bernieoc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How about CM4221 and Wineguard low vhf 1026. Or 4228 or w8800 (good on low uhf) or XG91 and for vhf Wade single ch 3, or even a better combo ? I am very close now,you can see why I am confused. More gain -less gain- wide beam - narrow beam.



I'd try the Channel Master 4221. It has the best odds of succeeding at what you're trying to do. However, getting success with both locations is going to be something of a crap shoot - you might get lucky, but then again, you might not.


Based on my experience with the 91XG, I can aim about 30 degrees off-axis and still get strong signals on local digitals (approx 30 miles, no line-of-sight.) But for long-distance reception, it has to be aimed precisely - 1 degree makes a difference.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bernieoc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I
> 
> How about CM4221 and Wineguard low vhf 1026. Or 4228 or w8800 (good on low uhf)
> 
> or XG91 and for vhf Wade single ch 3, or even a better combo ?
> 
> I am very close now,you can see why I am confused. More gain -less gain- wide beam - narrow beam.
> 
> Thanks for your advise




If you have disposable time (and possibly money) you can do a lot of trial and error to try to find something that will work. It's a crapshoot really but you might get lucky.


The CM 7777 will diplex uhf and vhf for you so you can easily separate uhf and vhf for independent aiming. You can further separate it into low vhf + high vhf + uhf by adding a hi/lo separator on the vhf side which will then give you independent aiming of all three assuming you have room for three antennas on the mast.


There's no free lunch. Wider beamwidth=lower gain and performance. No way around it. That's what rotators are for.


----------



## newsposter

I just realized how lucky I am that all my channels are at the 130 except fox at the 128 and I was able to get it in the 60s and a watchable signal. I couldnt even imagine 3 antennas! I feel for you as getting all this aimed right took forever for me.


Plus with a rotator, you can't even record while you are away unless it's already pointed the right way.


----------



## cmk

I have been using a CM4228 in my attic for almost a year. It works fairly well but at times I have multipath issues. It is in a pretty tight space in my second floor attic but pretty close to the attic floor because of the roof liine. The CM4228 is too big to get through the access hole to the higher point in the roof. Just out of curiousity I hooked up a Zenith Silver Sensor and to my amazement the SS is outperforming the CM4228. However since the SS is so directional I am having trouble getting a couple stations. My question is can I combine the SS and CM4228 pointed in slightly different directions. The antennas are about 15-20 feet apart in in different areas of the attic? Please advise if this is at all a viable solution and what type of combiner/splitter I would need. These antenna would go into my multiswitch after being combined.


----------



## logray

Does anyone know of a source to purchase Funke antennas in the USA? I'm looking for a PSP.1925-5/12 VHF yagi. The only two places I could think of were CPC CO in the UK (but they don't apparently stock this model), and direct from Funke - but I can't find any contact info and not sure if they sell direct to end users. Just wondering if anyone out there has had luck buying Funke in the US. TIA.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cmk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My question is can I combine the SS and CM4228 pointed in slightly different directions. ...Please advise if this is at all a viable solution and what type of combiner/splitter I would need.



Can you? Yes. Should you? No, with one exception: if you only need one channel from one of the antennas. In that case, you could use a Jointenna for that channel (they have two inputs - one for the desired channel and another for "everything else.") Otherwise, your results will be unpredictable - you're creating multipath. Maybe it will be better, but odds are good it will be worse.


----------



## Rack

Off the top of my head, MAX HD has some Funke antennas. I think he might have some PSP.1922s lying around, not sure about the 1925s, though.

The 1922s sure look nice paired up:
http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...TowerAntennas/ 

He must have gotten the antennas to Indiana somehow. You should ask him.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rack* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> He must have gotten the antennas to Indiana somehow



Yes,and it only took 3mo,persistence,and a bit of a hassle to get them.There's only two places in the world to get one of these individually,somewhere in Russia,and my garage  89 dollars each incl frt UPS ground-48 states only.When they're gone,they're gone.E'mail or pm me.


Here's a link to a Russian site that has the only correct picture on the net.The pic on Funke's site is not accurate.

http://www.newkino.ru/shop.asp?sid=2&pid=13


----------



## PA_MainyYak

Greetings all!

I'm new to this forum and to HDTV. Here's my quandry: I have the potential to pick up around 10 DT stations in a 180° arc. I'm planning to use a Channel Master 4228 mounted on the roof with a rotor (and preamp).

The stations, distance from me (in miles), and bearing:

WJAC-DT 3.5 319°

WWCP-DT 15 227°

WNPA-DT 14 224°

WTAJ-DT 31 58°

WATM-DT 31 58°

WPSU-DT 60 25°

WTAE-DT 46 266°

WPXI-DT 57 279°

WPGH-DT 57 282°

KDKA-DT 61 292°


No preamp is needed for the WJAC-DT signal, and will likely cause trouble. The other signals however would appear to require some boosting.

I'm especially concerned with KDKA since its bearing is rather close to the very strong WJAC signal, and with WTAJ dragging feet on HD, KD appears my only only other OTA option to catch CBS HD programming (Go Steelers!).


My home is 1550 ft above sea level with a reasonably open view to the west (other than the 3100' Laurel Ridge







).

I have had success in the past picking up the Pittsburgh analog VHF stations with a Radio Shack antenna on a rotor.


Any thoughts, advice, or dire warnings gladly accepted.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PA_MainyYak* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Greetings all!
> 
> I'm new to this forum and to HDTV. Here's my quandry: I have the potential to pick up around 10 DT stations in a 180° arc. I'm planning to use a Channel Master 4228 mounted on the roof with a rotor (and preamp).
> 
> 
> ...No preamp is needed for the WJAC-DT signal, and will likely cause trouble. The other signals however would appear to require some boosting.
> 
> 
> I have had success in the past picking up the Pittsburgh analog VHF stations with a Radio Shack antenna on a rotor.



4228s are murder on consumer-grade rotors. Look into either getting a rotor bearing ( http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmmatv.htm#rotor ) or a different antenna. For all practical purposes, the AntennasDirect 91XG is at least as good, if not better, and puts much less stress on a rotor. I've posted my review of the 91XG, and at least one other person has posted their results from replacing a 4228 with a 91XG.


A preamplifier is going to kill you. The strong local signal means that the amp will overload, and that will destroy all of your distant signals. All you can do is filter out the local station and hope for the best. However, don't assume you need a preamplifier - not everyone does, and I've gotten good results at 50+ miles without one.


As you may know, VHF and UHF are horses of different colors when it comes to long-range reception, especially when you're physically blocked. You may catch some diffraction from the ridge, or you may not. All you can do is put an antenna up and try.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PA_MainyYak* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Greetings all!
> 
> I'm new to this forum and to HDTV. Here's my quandry: I have the potential to pick up around 10 DT stations in a 180° arc. I'm planning to use a Channel Master 4228 mounted on the roof with a rotor (and preamp).
> 
> The stations, distance from me (in miles), and bearing:
> 
> WJAC-DT 3.5 319°
> 
> WWCP-DT 15 227°
> 
> WNPA-DT 14 224°
> 
> WTAJ-DT 31 58°
> 
> WATM-DT 31 58°
> 
> WPSU-DT 60 25°
> 
> WTAE-DT 46 266°
> 
> WPXI-DT 57 279°
> 
> WPGH-DT 57 282°
> 
> KDKA-DT 61 292°
> 
> 
> No preamp is needed for the WJAC-DT signal, and will likely cause trouble. The other signals however would appear to require some boosting.
> 
> I'm especially concerned with KDKA since its bearing is rather close to the very strong WJAC signal, and with WTAJ dragging feet on HD, KD appears my only only other OTA option to catch CBS HD programming (Go Steelers!).
> 
> 
> My home is 1550 ft above sea level with a reasonably open view to the west (other than the 3100' Laurel Ridge
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ).
> 
> I have had success in the past picking up the Pittsburgh analog VHF stations with a Radio Shack antenna on a rotor.
> 
> 
> Any thoughts, advice, or dire warnings gladly accepted.



Sregener gave you good advice. The CM 4228 is a large wind load. I load my CM 9251 rotator probably more though and so far it has held up. If you've not already bought the 4228, definitely consider something like the xg91. You'll sleep better at night.


As far as your reception is concerned, I'd agree to be real concerned about the station only 3.5 miles from you for preamp overload. You can get a channel 34 Jointenna from CM and use just one side of it to attenuate 34 (will also attenuate 33 and 35 significantly). I'd *still* worry about the two other stations which are only 14 miles away, though. The only way to know is to try. You might consider a lowish gain preamp like the 20db version from antennasdirect (will not pass vhf) and then an in-line amp indoors such as the CM 3042 at the first split if needed. This should give you higher immunity to input overload vs. using a single high gain preamp.


----------



## PGDave

I recently tried stacking two XG91 antennas vertically. Expecting improved reception, I was disappointed to find that signal strength had actually decreased somewhat.


The antennas were placed 40" apart boom-to-boom and oriented in the same direction. I used equal length RG6 from each balun to an ordinary splitter and from there, I used a short length to a CM 7777 preamp and then down to the power supply and receiver.


I think that using the splitter in reverse may have been where I went wrong. I am now looking at either a Winegard CC 7870 or a Channel Master 0538 antenna combiner. Each says that one port passes DC for the preamplifier and the diagrams shown on their web sites suggest that the preamp is used for only one antenna.


Does anyone have an opinion as to which combiner is best and how the preamp should be attached in the array? Out of the combiner into the preamp or one antenna to the preamp and then to the combiner? I would also appreciate any comments as to whether my spacing is correct or any other issues that I should address. Thanks.




I


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PGDave* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I recently tried stacking two XG91 antennas vertically. Expecting improved reception, I was disappointed to find that signal strength had actually decreased somewhat.
> 
> 
> The antennas were placed 40" apart boom-to-boom and oriented in the same direction. I used equal length RG6 from each balun to an ordinary splitter and from there, I used a short length to a CM 7777 preamp and then down to the power supply and receiver.
> 
> 
> I think that using the splitter in reverse may have been where I went wrong. I am now looking at either a Winegard CC 7870 or a Channel Master 0538 antenna combiner. Each says that one port passes DC for the preamplifier and the diagrams shown on their web sites suggest that the preamp is used for only one antenna.
> 
> 
> Does anyone have an opinion as to which combiner is best and how the preamp should be attached in the array? Out of the combiner into the preamp or one antenna to the preamp and then to the combiner? I would also appreciate any comments as to whether my spacing is correct or any other issues that I should address. Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I




40 inches spacing is in the ballpark so that's not your problem. Around 36 is what I've used. Be sure the splitter you are using is wideband (at least 1 mhz). The preamp is best inserted as you have it currently and that's really the only way it will work. Be sure the FM trap is "in" on the 7777. Two UHF antennas stacked make an even better FM antenna than one.


Look at the xg91 baluns. There is a question as to whether they are PCB or ferrite core. If they are PCB then the phase *should* be matched for you. If ferrite core, you may have to switch the phase by switching the leads from the antenna to the balun. Alternatively, you could turn one antenna upside-down but you'll have to rotate the u-bolt clamps 180 degrees to keep the mast on the same side of the antenna. If the baluns are out of phase it won't work; the signal will actually cancel. An out-of-phase stack will behave as if it can only see from the sidelobes and the main forward lobe will be nulled.



As I've said before, vertical stacking in my experience isn't as good as horizontal, but it should be better than one antenna. In California, I'd suspect horizontal will definitely be the better of the two.


----------



## PGDave

cpcat - Thanks for your suggestions. Both antennas have the same type of baluns--they are round cylinders with two wires that attach to the ends of the loop that is the active element. I opened each case and did not see a printed circuit board. I will switch the leads on the bottom antenna.


Any recommendation on which combiner is best? Thanks!


----------



## Dr_EluSivE

Hi, I have a 4 bay UHF antenna mounted in my Attic (looks like a CM 4221, but its probably 25 years old...) and Currently i get all the channels i expected to get OTA so i am pretty happy with it, however i am adding another HDTV in another room and i want to hook that up to this same antenna. I am afraid if i do this though i cut my signal down to much and neither one will work. (some channels are borderline) I was thinking that if i have this problem a Preamp might be a good idea, What kinds are good? I have used cable preamps before and ended up with Worse picture and ghosting so i dont want to get something cheap that will make it worse. I am going to try without first, but i bet i will lose a few. I just plan on spitting the 75 Ohm coax that comes out of the 300Ohm transformer. Does this sound reasonable? How much drop do you think i will have? the current TV is 100' away from the Antenna, and the other will be atleast 30. (long ranch style house)

heres my antennaweb info..

DTV Antenna

Type Call Sign Channel Network City State compass Orientation Miles

From Frequency Assignment

* yellow - uhf WRSP-DT 55.1 FOX SPRINGFIELD IL 58° 16.0 44

green - uhf WICS 20 ABC SPRINGFIELD IL 56° 15.5 20

green - uhf WCFN 49 UPN SPRINGFIELD IL 52° 12.7 49

green - uhf WRSP 55 FOX SPRINGFIELD IL 58° 16.0 55

* lt green - uhf WCFN-DT 49.1 UPN SPRINGFIELD IL 52° 12.7 53

* lt green - uhf WBUI-DT 23.1 WB DECATUR IL 67° 48.0 22

blue - uhf WAND 17 NBC DECATUR IL 68° 49.9 17

* blue - uhf WAND-DT 17.1 NBC DECATUR IL 68° 49.9 18

* blue - uhf WICS-DT 20.1 ABC SPRINGFIELD IL 56° 15.5 42

blue - uhf WBUI 23 WB DECATUR IL 63° 49.5 23

violet - uhf WYZZ 43 FOX BLOOMINGTON IL 23° 72.4 43

violet - vhf WILL 12 PBS URBANA IL 66° 60.1 12

violet - uhf WMBD 31 CBS PEORIA IL 8° 66.8 31

violet - uhf WEEK 25 NBC PEORIA IL 7° 66.4 25

violet - uhf WSEC 14 PBS JACKSONVILLE IL 280° 25.5 14

* violet - uhf WSEC-DT 14.1 PBS JACKSONVILLE IL 255° 19.1 15

violet - uhf WTVP 47 PBS PEORIA IL 6° 66.2 47

violet - uhf W29BG 29 TBN DECATUR IL 76° 38.8 29

violet - vhf W08DP 8 PBS SPRINGFIELD IL 28° 11.9 8

violet - vhf WCIA 3 CBS CHAMPAIGN IL 66° 72.6 3

violet - uhf WHOI 19 ABC PEORIA IL 6° 67.7 19

Note:

The above listing is a conservative prediction of stations received. Depending on the specifics of your installation, you may be able to receive stations that do not appear in this list.


Dr.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PGDave* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> cpcat - Thanks for your suggestions. Both antennas have the same type of baluns--they are round cylinders with two wires that attach to the ends of the loop that is the active element. I opened each case and did not see a printed circuit board. I will switch the leads on the bottom antenna.
> 
> 
> Any recommendation on which combiner is best? Thanks!



Sounds like the baluns are ferrite core.


Any wideband splitter in reverse will do it. A small improvement can be had by using a low loss stripline combiner such as the one made by Lindsay: http://www.lindsayelec.com/antenna/c...combiners.html 


Triax also makes one as well. The incremental improvement will be small though and they're expensive. You'd likely see much more improvement by going horizontal if vertical doesn't do it with your current setup.


The CM 0538 you mention would likely be equivalent to what you're using now.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PGDave* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I recently tried stacking two XG91 antennas vertically. Expecting improved reception, I was disappointed to find that signal strength had actually decreased somewhat.



If you haven't read this page yet, it's a good start: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html 


I used the Radio Shack "gold" splitter/combiner (runs about $10) when I tried a stack. It seemed to work pretty well.


I agree with cpcat that a horizontal stack is more likely to improve your reception than a vertical one.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr_EluSivE* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi, I have a 4 bay UHF antenna mounted in my Attic (looks like a CM 4221, but its probably 25 years old...) and Currently i get all the channels i expected to get OTA so i am pretty happy with it, however i am adding another HDTV in another room and i want to hook that up to this same antenna. I am afraid if i do this though i cut my signal down to much and neither one will work. (some channels are borderline) I was thinking that if i have this problem a Preamp might be a good idea, What kinds are good? I have used cable preamps before and ended up with Worse picture and ghosting so i dont want to get something cheap that will make it worse. I am going to try without first, but i bet i will lose a few. I just plan on spitting the 75 Ohm coax that comes out of the 300Ohm transformer. Does this sound reasonable? How much drop do you think i will have? the current TV is 100' away from the Antenna, and the other will be atleast 30. (long ranch style house)
> 
> heres my antennaweb info..Dr.



I'd try without an amp first, then add a distribution amp if necessary such as the CM 3042. The Channelvision CVT15PIA is even a little better but more expensive.

If you end up using an amp, I would also probably consider running the signal through the high side of a HLSJ to remove FM and low band. This will eliminate the possibility of FM overload and clean up the signal before amplification.

HLSJ: http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr_EluSivE* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi, I have a 4 bay UHF antenna mounted in my Attic (looks like a CM 4221, but its probably 25 years old...) and Currently i get all the channels i expected to get OTA so i am pretty happy with it, however i am adding another HDTV in another room and i want to hook that up to this same antenna. I am afraid if i do this though i cut my signal down to much and neither one will work. (some channels are borderline) I was thinking that if i have this problem a Preamp might be a good idea...



For about the same (or even less) amount of money as a second preamp, you could buy another CM 4221 for the second set. That's assuming, of course, that you don't have a "hot spot" where the current antenna is, and really need to be in that spot. If you do place a second antenna up there, it should be at least 6' away (and not in line) to make sure the two antennas don't interract with each other.


If you're getting good results, a low-powered preamplifier would be the best choice. AntennasDirect sells one that has 16db of gain. Winegard makes one with 19db of gain. But those run over $50, and a new CM4221 is half that.


It is entirely possible that your "borderline" stations are the result of multipath, not weak signals. If this is the case, splitting won't hurt your reception, and may even help it by eliminating some weak ghosts. The only way to find out is to try it.


----------



## Chow7

If I get the Winegard sharpshooter indoor antenna, would a preamp increase the rage? I am about 37 miles from the station and This antenna says it can reach 30 miles.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Chow7* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I get the Winegard sharpshooter indoor antenna, would a preamp increase the rage? I am about 37 miles from the station and This antenna says it can reach 30 miles.



Well, I'd advise against the sharpshooter - it's a terrible antenna. And 37 miles is really pushing things in most areas for an indoor antenna. If you want to try an indoor antenna, the Zenith Silver Sensor has worked very well for many.


But adding a preamp is highly unlikely to help at all. It would probably make things worse.


----------



## Jim5506

Indoor antennas are not reliable beyond 15 miles, no matter what the manufacturer claims.


For 37 miles you need a mid-range outdoor antenna mounted above your roofline.


Amplifiers are non-discriminating, they multiply noise and signal all together.


----------



## PA_MainyYak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sregener gave you good advice. The CM 4228 is a large wind load. I load my CM 9251 rotator probably more though and so far it has held up. If you've not already bought the 4228, definitely consider something like the xg91. You'll sleep better at night.
> 
> 
> As far as your reception is concerned, I'd agree to be real concerned about the station only 3.5 miles from you for preamp overload. You can get a channel 34 Jointenna from CM and use just one side of it to attenuate 34 (will also attenuate 33 and 35 significantly). I'd *still* worry about the two other stations which are only 14 miles away, though. The only way to know is to try. You might consider a lowish gain preamp like the 20db version from antennasdirect (will not pass vhf) and then an in-line amp indoors such as the CM 3042 at the first split if needed. This should give you higher immunity to input overload vs. using a single high gain preamp.



Thanks all for the advice.

I've modified my shopping list ... now on to the roof!!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jim5506* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Indoor antennas are not reliable beyond 15 miles, no matter what the manufacturer claims.



That's a pretty general statement, and as most general statements aren't always true, this one isn't either.


People have line-of-sight to the transmitters on Mount Wilson in California at 100 miles. Indoor antennas work just fine for many of them. I've seen indoor antennas, sited on the proper side of the building, next to a window, do a good job at over 30 miles. But that was with good terrain, and involved a fair bit of luck. I wouldn't *count* on an indoor antenna beyond 15 miles, but it rarely hurts to try and results may be surprising.


That said, Winegard is really pushing things by claiming a 30-mile range for this twisted piece of metal from the garbage heap.


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

I finally got my antenna roughly tied across the roof peak yesterday -- ran out of light to get it secured how I think I want it. It's an improvement over the attic for most channels; especially the one I really wanted (ABC). BUT, now the one (RF channel 56) that was **strongest** in the attic, is just barely NOT coming in! (Just under 50%, attic was in the 60s at least.)







About 10 days ago when I first set it up there to test, it was reading in the 60s also I believe. The other channels were the same as now during testing.


On the roof now, it's maybe 8' to the right and 3' higher than the attic position. I wasn't quite in this exact position when I tested. Maybe the foot or two (sideways) changed things... Since I have holes now, I can't really move left or right, just forward/back and change the vertical angle. Maybe the higher frequency 56 is being affected by the roof more (few inches from the lower wing boom)? *I* don't know... I'll have to see if I can get it when I go up there again.







Just weird that someplace outside is worse than attic when everything else is better (analogs too!







).



Another thing I was wondering about anyway: to experiment using stuff around here, could I increase the gain by making the Yagi section longer (say 3') with more director elements? For example, using pieces of solid copper wire (12-10ga) cut to the same length as the other directors (8" I think) and spaced the same distance (5-6") on a wood stick (just as a test) or something strapped to the front of the Yagi. Would anything good happen?







Do the director elements need to be the same "thickness" (RS has like "half oval" bars, maybe 1/2 x 3/4" -- *greywolf* should have the same type







), or does that only affect driven elements? Obviously regular wire would be nowhere near the current elements' "diameter"... Oh wait, otherwise I could probably make hollow, "open bottom" ones very similar to what it has by bending strips of my aluminum sheets in half -- if more directors (or longer Yagi section) = more gain, as indicted on HDTV Primer for the CM 3018 and 4242.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Another thing I was wondering about anyway: to experiment using stuff around here, could I increase the gain by making the Yagi section longer (say 3') with more director elements?



Probably add a dB or two, but not much more. You need a lot of directors to make a big difference in gain. And you should look up the length calculations - they're not supposed to be evenly spaced...


----------



## Neil L

With a true Yagi designed for a single frequency, the directors are not evenly spaced, but most commercial antennas are de-tuned to cover the whole UHF spectrum, and many have evenly spaced directors. At least toward the front end of the antenna.


Adding a few more directors won't make enough difference to be worth the effort. Experimenting with aim and position will make a bigger difference.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> BUT, now the one (RF channel 56) that was **strongest** in the attic, is just barely NOT coming in! (Just under 50%, attic was in the 60s at least.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About 10 days ago when I first set it up there to test, it was reading in the 60s also I believe. The other channels were the same as now during testing.
> 
> 
> .



Antenna beamwidth usually narrows as frequency increases. You might double check your aim. What antenna are you using? Sorry if I missed it.


I hate to be "Mr. Rotator" all the time, but another advantage to a rotatator is it allows fine tuning of aim for marginal channels.


----------



## greywolf

Putting it on a mast instead of tying it to sheet metal across a roof peak is still my recommendation.


----------



## bry999

I have a DB4 on order which should be here Monday. The best place to mount the antenna is on the SW side of our house:


a) the HDTV antennas are in that direction and no buildings would be in the way

b) close to the communications closet (


----------



## greywolf

You probably won't notice any difference with any of the methods and all look okay except #3. It's possibly dangerous aside from the ground loop problem and a building code violation. Even that would work with modification. The equipment grounding rod and the building grounding rod would need to be bonded with a 6ga or better copper wire. See http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm for details. If I was in your shoes, I'd go for #4. Don't forget to ground any cable that enters the building near the point of entry.


----------



## bry999

Thanks Greywolf!


----------



## PGDave




> Quote:
> If they are PCB then the phase *should* be matched for you. If ferrite core, you may have to switch the phase by switching the leads from the antenna to the balun.



cpcat - I switched the leads from the balun to the antenna but it actually made the reception worse. So I switched them back. There didn't seem to be any indication of which lead should attach to which end of the antenna so I'm wondering if it may have been installed incorrectly during manufacture.


I will experiment with moving the antenna on the mast. I might try a horizontal stack later when I have more time. In a horizontal stack, should one antenna be mounted upside down to maintain proper phase?


Thanks for your help.


Dave


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PGDave* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> cpcat - I switched the leads from the balun to the antenna but it actually made the reception worse. So I switched them back. There didn't seem to be any indication of which lead should attach to which end of the antenna so I'm wondering if it may have been installed incorrectly during manufacture.
> 
> 
> I will experiment with moving the antenna on the mast. I might try a horizontal stack later when I have more time. In a horizontal stack, should one antenna be mounted upside down to maintain proper phase?
> 
> 
> Thanks for your help.
> 
> 
> Dave




It sounds like you confirmed the phasing. Turning one antenna upside down is just another way of inverting the phase. I was simply giving you this an an alternative to switching leads on the balun as I didn't know how accessible the leads would be. It sounds like you're in phase now, so if you go horizontal you shouldn't have to change anything.


How far are you from your stations?


----------



## PGDave




> Quote:
> It sounds like you confirmed the phasing. Turning one antenna upside down is just another way of inverting the phase. I was simply giving you this an an alternative to switching leads on the balun as I didn't know how accessible the leads would be. It sounds like you're in phase now, so if you go horizontal you shouldn't have to change anything.
> 
> 
> How far are you from your stations?



I'm 84 miles southeast of the San Francisco transmitters. With a single XG91, my signal strength would be 69 on most channels but reception was not as consistent as I'd like so I was hoping that by stacking two XG91s, I would have rock-solid reception all the time. But now, with the stack, my signal strength averages about 63 with fluctations down to 35 or less.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PGDave* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm 84 miles southeast of the San Francisco transmitters. With a single XG91, my signal strength would be 69 on most channels but reception was not as consistent as I'd like so I was hoping that by stacking two XG91s, I would have rock-solid reception all the time. But now, with the stack, my signal strength averages about 63 with fluctations down to 35 or less.



I'd leave the vertical stack up and play with it a while. I'm assuming you've tweaked and double checked the aim. Also, try different heights on the mast. Higher is usually better, but not always. Assuming you are using the "combined" input on the 7777, be sure the FM trap is "in". The one predictable thing about reception is that it's unpredictable. You may be back here tomorrow talking about how great your reception has become. I've been burned before by trying to evaluate things with only a short window of time. What are your analogs like now compared to before?


84 miles is a long way for stable reception no matter what. Are you aware that HD DNS is now available through D* for those in so called analog "white" areas? You should qualify for that now. In addition, assuming the San Francisco stations are your locals, you'll be eligible for Local HD through D* in the next year.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Forgive me if this has been asked already, but after reading numerous posts about people not being able to get TV signals in their homes, one has to ask, why are we still relying on old rooftop antenna technology that we had 50 years ago?


With todays technology, and the advent of HDTV, one would think they would have come up with a new and better way to deliver TV signals to peoples TV's by now. I mean if I can receive a cell phone signal (and internet on my cell phone) inside of my house on a piece of equipment that can fit in the palm of my hand, why can't we get better TV signals inside of our houses?


Why couldn't the FCC mandate that the cable, telephone and/or electric companys provide free OTA signals to people in their homes that can't receive OTA signals. The FCC is already requiring all stations to go digital anyways.


Most of us out there already have some sort of "cable" (cable tv, telephone or electric) coming into our homes, (we have DSL service over existing phone lines), so why couldn't they add local TV signals over the same cable?


Sorry for the rant.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *theratpatrol* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Forgive me if this has been asked already, but after reading numerous posts about people not being able to get TV signals in their homes, one has to ask, why are we still relying on old rooftop antenna technology that we had 50 years ago?



I've read these types of questions for a couple of years now, and I think there are a few basic answers to this type of query.


First, you have an underlying assumption that "old" technology is inferior to new. This is the "evolution myth" (not to be confused with that other kind of evolution) that states that things are progressing steadily from simple to complex, or from bad to good to better. Not everything old is bad. Not everything new is good. The best antenna design is about 50 years old, developed by a man by the name of Yagi. Nobody has bettered it yet, in spite of Terk's repeated attempts to make a better antenna.


The second thought is that the laws of physics don't change with time. Television signals are sent on a particular band of frequencies. That band hasn't changed much since it was started (UHF was added, and Channel 1 was requisitioned for military use...) The propogation tendencies of those frequencies also hasn't changed. So in order for those signals to suddenly go through materials that they never have, something would have to change about either the nature of those signals, or the nature of the materials in question. Or, alternatively, they could change the frequency band, but since all of them are in use, they'd have to boot something else off a band in order to use it for broadcast television.


You cite cell phones working indoors as an example of a signal that goes through walls and works indoors. Great if you're in a city. Not so great if you're off the major roads out in the country. You're also dealing with a small band of frequencies, which couldn't carry the bandwidth of HD digital television signals, and a high number of towers for distribution. AM radio works well indoors, but from 530kHz to 1700kHz, the entire AM band, is only about 1Mhz and one television station (analog or digital) requires 6Mhz.


Then you ask about all those wires coming into your home and why can't one of them carry those signals? Of course, you state this in a metro area, since rural areas typically don't have DSL, they don't have clean electrical circuits, and cable is probably a dream they just can't see ever happening. In other words, distributing television signals via wires works great if you happen to be in a densely populated area, but the cost per home served becomes impossible in areas that have few homes.


Broadcast television, in the VHF-lo, VHF-hi and UHF bands, provides service to areas approximately 60 miles in radius, to almost everyone in that radius, in most parts of the country. They do so with limited electrical power and limited need for microwave links for distributing the signals. They use single towers instead of hundreds or thousands to cover that area. All that is required is, if you live beyond 15-20 miles of the tower, a simple device attached to the outside of your home that costs under $200, and will give you years of service. I can only dream of the days when cable television costs me less than $200 a decade.


Instead of complaining about how inferior this "old" technology is, ask yourself why all the newer technologies cost more and have so many drawbacks in comparison to broadcast television. Or you can just sit back and enjoy the perfect pictures and sound of digital television from a hunk of metal on your roof and be amazed that anyone thought of doing it at all.


----------



## Dominus

POSITIONING OF ANTENNA


I just bought the ChannelMaster 4221 to pick up HD channels and wondered which side should face the towers? The "screen" side or the side with the "x"s and other hardware? I'm not getting ANY channels with the screen side facing the towers so I'm assuming I'm 180 degrees off?


I also attached the antenna to a mount from a rafter so it's upside down. Is that ok?


Sorry for being dense. I've checked everywhere on the web for the correct installation setup and find nothing.


Thanks


----------



## Dominus

Bravo! Well said.


----------



## ctdish

Upsidedown is OK. The x's point to the station. John


----------



## Dominus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Upsidedown is OK. The x's point to the station. John



Thank you, thank you.


Back to the attic!


----------



## Ericglo

I posted my DIY antenna thread over in the Tweak and DIY forum. I would love to get some feedback on ways to improve the performance.


Ericglo


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Yes, I agree, very well done. Thanks to your explanations, I have a better idea of how things work now. As they say, you learn something new everyday.


I really wasn't trying to complain about the technology, as I myself have a rooftop antenna (UHF only) and receive free OTA HD signals in the metro area I live in. There's a hill/mountain between me and the towers, so I can't get all of them, but the ones I do get are the ones I want.


I guess what I was trying to ask (or suggest) is if there were other ways for people to get their OTA local channels if they couldn't get them with a rooftop antenna. Those who live too far out of town, live in apartment buildings or have obstacles in their way and can't get a direct line of site view of the towers.


Sorry if I offended anyone.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *theratpatrol* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes, I agree, very well done. Thanks to your explanations, I have a better idea of how things work now. As they say, you learn something new everyday.
> 
> 
> I really wasn't trying to complain about the technology, as I myself have a rooftop antenna (UHF only) and receive free OTA HD signals in the metro area I live in. There's a hill/mountain between me and the towers, so I can't get all of them, but the ones I do get are the ones I want.
> 
> 
> I guess what I was trying to ask (or suggest) is if there were other ways for people to get their OTA local channels if they couldn't get them with a rooftop antenna. Those who live too far out of town, live in apartment buildings or have obstacles in their way and can't get a direct line of site view of the towers.
> 
> 
> Sorry if I offended anyone.



Most cable systems are providing local HD stations as part of their "Basic Cable" offering via a QAM digital carrier.

All Digital Cable Ready (DCR) HDTV have a QAM tuner capability that can receive local unencrypted channels when a CableCard is not inserted, and have the ability to receive the usual assortment of encrypted digital channels when you pay extra for digital service and insert the cable company provided CableCard.

Some, but not all OTA STB's also have QAM tuner capability.


Unfortunately, the cable companies don't advertise this capability and the customer reps are going to give you a big "huh??" when you ask whether they have unencrypted QAM channels. Your local thread should have information on whether your local cable company has local HD channels via unencrypted QAM.


----------



## Dominus

*Joining a VHF/UHF (DC HD and FM) and UHF (Balt HD) Antenna*

I took the advice of a previous post a purchased a joiner to try and get both the DC and Balt channels. I have a VHF/UHF pointed at the DC towers for HD and FM and a UFH pointed at Balt for HD. I have also added an amplifier into the mix though it doesn't seem to affect either signal in any way.


The results were mixed in that only one of the connections (UHF) on the joiner showed any promise whatsoever. Didn't matter which antenna I connected, the UHF worked.


Any suggestions how I can get them both to work? If I had two RF connections on the TV, I would buy the Silver Sensor to take the place of the DC antenna but that's not an option.


Thanks


----------



## colofan

One little item about above TV analysis is that you could say the same statements about satellite coverage except the distance covered are much larger and terrain for rural areas are typically not an issue. What bites my butt is that 50 year old technology (OTA TV) prevents me from receiving signals from space because of local broadcaster feeling a need to extert thier control over my ability to see distant programming.


Maybe the equipment isn't quite as cheap yet but is isn't very far from that. If congress required the FTA broadcasts were done for network programming my need for OTA would disappear overnight. So yes newer technologies can provide better service.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *colofan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What bites my butt is that 50 year old technology (OTA TV) prevents me from receiving signals from space because of local broadcaster feeling a need to extert thier control over my ability to see distant programming.
> 
> 
> If congress required the FTA broadcasts were done for network programming my need for OTA would disappear overnight. So yes newer technologies can provide better service.



Actually, it's not 50-year-old technology. It's something much older called copyrights.


When it comes to broadcast television, you the viewer are not the customer. You're the target of the service, but the customer is actually the advertisers. They're the ones who pay the money so you can see the programming for free. They do this because they believe that seeing their advertising will influence your buying behavior. They're not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. The networks, in seeking to make money, create programming that will appeal (they hope) to the target demographics advertisers are willing to spend money for. Then you, the buying public, essentially agree to watch programs that were designed to catch your attention and keep you from switching channels for fear of missing something.


In order for Congress to rule that networks had to distribute their programming FTA, they would have to modify copyright laws to do so, removing the rights of the intellectual property creator to decide how to distribute their IP. I can see no reason why Congress should remove this right, nor do I believe it to be in the best interests of us, the viewers. If local broadcasting went away, the advertising dollars would follow, which means episodes of our favorite shows that cost upwards of $1 million each, would disappear.


There is no law preventing NBC or any other network from creating a "satellite" channel with all their network programming on it. They choose not to do so because they believe they can make more money by not distributing their programming in this manner.


That said, last I checked, the networks were available FTA, but that is always subject to change... ( http://www.lyngsat.com/freetv/United-States.html )


----------



## richard korsgren

Directv is rolling out a new system (MPEG4) to deliver digital (HD) OTA network signals throughout the USA (12 major cities first). Detroit is first and test market for this new delivery system.


----------



## Dominus

I just bought a splitter/joiner from the shack at lunchtime and I'll try this tonight to see if I can get two antennas to work. Heck, it's a $5 try. It would probably be better spent at the local SB coffee shop.


We'll see.


----------



## RMSko

If I have a preamp and amp connected to my outdoor antenna. The preamp is connected to the antenna which is mounted on the roof. I then have about 50' of coax to the amp. The amp is then plugged into the power source and is then connected to my OTA tuner. One of my signals is jumping around a bit and it has been suggested that the preamp/amp may actually be causing this problem. I now want to test this and was wondering whether unplugging the amp from the power source will be enough or will I also need to disconnect both the amp and the preamp and have the coax run directly from the antenna to the OTA tuner. Obviously 'd like to avoid going on my roof, but if I need to I will.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RMSko* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I now want to test this and was wondering whether unplugging the amp from the power source will be enough or will I also need to disconnect both the amp and the preamp and have the coax run directly from the antenna to the OTA tuner.



Most preamp's outdoor unit will not pass a signal if they aren't receiving power. You have to remove it from the line to do your test. Sorry.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There is no law preventing NBC or any other network from creating a "satellite" channel with all their network programming on it. They choose not to do so because they believe they can make more money by not distributing their programming in this manner.



Isn't this already happening? I think that some of the OTA broadcast network's parent companies also own "cable only" networks like Bravo or ESPN. This lets them choose where to put their premium content like the Olympics or Monday Night Football- exclusively on the broadcast networkp; split between OTA and "cable" or exclusively on cable and satellite. It seems that the recent trend is to move premium content away from the OTA network.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Isn't this already happening? I think that some of the OTA broadcast network's parent companies also own "cable only" networks like Bravo or ESPN. This lets them choose where to put their premium content like the Olympics or Monday Night Football- exclusively on the broadcast networkp; split between OTA and "cable" or exclusively on cable and satellite. It seems that the recent trend is to move premium content away from the OTA network.



What you're describing and what the other poster was railing against are two different things. I don't think he's upset that Bravo is available on cable and satellite systems nationwide. I think he is upset that he can't get, for example, 'Desperate Housewives' from a distant city, presumably because his local station either doesn't offer it in HD, or has an engineering staff with the intelligence of mice that routinely screws up the picture, sound, or both.


And while ABC is moving MNF to ESPN, NBC is going to move Sunday Night football to broadcast from cable-only, which works out to be a wash for trends.


----------



## colofan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What you're describing and what the other poster was railing against are two different things. I don't think he's upset that Bravo is available on cable and satellite systems nationwide. I think he is upset that he can't get, for example, 'Desperate Housewives' from a distant city, presumably because his local station either doesn't offer it in HD, or has an engineering staff with the intelligence of mice that routinely screws up the picture, sound, or both.
> 
> 
> And while ABC is moving MNF to ESPN, NBC is going to move Sunday Night football to broadcast from cable-only, which works out to be a wash for trends.



Well you are correct in that I don't own the copyright material and that I pay by having advertising in the program I disagree about the fact that a local station controls access to material owned by the network. A local station would need to provide compelling programming for me to watch so they can get the dollars they seek from advertisers. Notice that very little local ad's are run during prime time of sporting events because most of the paying customers want national coverage.


As a sticking point as to why government really can require this is it is the "public" that owns the airwaves where most of this programming broadcast through. Yes this includes the backhauls on the satellites so it even impacts channels that are not available OTA.


You are correct in that I live in the Denver DMA and yes we have a disaster when it comes to the OTA DTV since most of the stations have no motivation to carry the signal. But that is another issue all together.


Bottom line is without the government license to use the airwaves these networks would not even exist so what is wrong with requiring that at least network programming be offered in the "clear".


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *colofan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> You are correct in that I live in the Denver DMA and yes we have a disaster when it comes to the OTA DTV since most of the stations have no motivation to carry the signal. But that is another issue all together.
> 
> 
> .



Have you checked lately to see if you're eligible for HD DNS? I'm in an analog "white area" and was still ineligible until I checked again recently and *wala* I'm now eligible through D*. My HD DNS was turned on about a week ago, no extra charge. I assume the Denver stations aren't O&O or you would have been eligible already.


HD DNS eligibility: http://directvdnseligibility.decisio...dressEntry.asp 


Edit: Looks like you aren't eligible. I feel your pain, though.


----------



## rdwalt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> .... or has an engineering staff with the intelligence of mice...


----------



## RMSko




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Most preamp's outdoor unit will not pass a signal if they aren't receiving power. You have to remove it from the line to do your test. Sorry.



That's okay, it's what I needed to find out b/c when I did unplug it I didn't get a signal so what you're saying makes sense. BTW - do you think that my preamp/amp could be causing my problems with some of the signals jumping around a bit?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RMSko* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> BTW - do you think that my preamp/amp could be causing my problems with some of the signals jumping around a bit?



I think it's very possible, even probable. Your zip code is a poor location for using a preamp, being so close to the NYC stations (both FM and TV.)


----------



## RMSko




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think it's very possible, even probable. Your zip code is a poor location for using a preamp, being so close to the NYC stations (both FM and TV.)



Thanks. You were correct! I took the amp and preamp off and the signal, while a little bit weaker, seems to have stopped jumping around. For the most part I'm getting readings in the 80's, which I assume should be fine (when I used the amp and preamp, I got readings about 3 "points" higher, but for some channels it jumped and wasn't reliable). The only strange thing is that I'm using the internal tuner of an HD TiVo and for one of the channels (CBS) the signal for one of the tuners is 79 and for the other tuner is 88. This is not the case with any of the other channels. However, if that's the worst result, I guess I can live with it.


----------



## jdhlll

New to this forum, hope this isn't off target -

I have a single bay HD antenna with pre-amp (not sure on the make of pre-amp) hooked to a HD Tivo.. I'm approx. 35 miles from the towers. No signal without the pre-amp; 90-92 on all channels with pre-amp. I want to hook up another HDTV in parallel since the TVs are on either side of the antenna and about equal distance from the antenna, 100ft. Also, a lot less work for me to install in parallel than series. Question - would will there be any problems operating two pre-amps in parallel from one antenna?

Appreciate any input. Thx.


----------



## thedonn

OK I got pics. How can I take this old dinosaur antenna that fell off the house long ago and use it with my new ATSC card. see pic Currently it has no connection line goint to it anywhere. Any Ideas?


----------



## madhatter1

thedonn...LOL...that antenna has seen it's better days a long time ago. I would relegate it to the aluminum scrap.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jdhlll* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> New to this forum, hope this isn't off target -
> 
> I have a single bay HD antenna with pre-amp (not sure on the make of pre-amp) hooked to a HD Tivo.. I'm approx. 35 miles from the towers. No signal without the pre-amp; 90-92 on all channels with pre-amp. I want to hook up another HDTV in parallel since the TVs are on either side of the antenna and about equal distance from the antenna, 100ft. Also, a lot less work for me to install in parallel than series. Question - would will there be any problems operating two pre-amps in parallel from one antenna?
> 
> Appreciate any input. Thx.



To match impedances, you would need to feed each Preamp, using an RF Splitter on the signal from the antenna....which reduces sensitivity by about 4 dB.

There is a better way to do this.


The single Preamp should have more than enough oomph to go through an RF Splitter and thence to each HDTV.


Option 1:

If you have to install the Power Insertion Module close to a power outlet (like next to one of the HDTV's),

then you will need to use a "Satellite RF Splitter" which has DC PASS capability.

In addition to the RS 16-2568, the RCA D800 and Zenith ZDS5010 also have DC PASS capability on both ports.

Just to be safe, a DC Block is recommended to prevent DC power from going to the input of the TV on the port that does not have the Power Insertion Module.


Option 2:

If you can locate the Power Insertion Module so that it is directly connected to the Preamp (no RF Splitter in the way) then any ol' RF Splitter connected on the other side of the Power Insertion Module will do the job.


Here are block diagrams:


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *madhatter1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> thedonn...LOL...that antenna has seen it's better days a long time ago. I would relegate it to the aluminum scrap.



I couldn't find a mast clamp anywhere on the antenna. No wonder it fell down.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *thedonn* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> OK I got pics. How can I take this old dinosaur antenna that fell off the house long ago and use it with my new ATSC card. see pic Currently it has no connection line goint to it anywhere. Any Ideas?



You probably shouldn't use it, but if you want to try, a $2 balun should do the trick. It has two pieces of wire on one side and a coaxial out on the other. Connect the wires to the gold wires right after the UHF directors. The front of the antenna is the section away from the "mast" section. There look to be 8 directors, followed by the UHF active element. You want the balun to connect to that active element.


----------



## TheRatPatrol




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You probably shouldn't use it.



I wouldn't use it either. But I just did a search for outdoor antenna on radioshack.com and couldn't find any, did they stop selling them?


----------



## Dominus

As an update, the $5 splitter/joiner from the Shack worked better than my original joiner and now I get almost all of the Balt and DC HD channels except for one, WUSA 9.1 CBS. I receive ch 9 (WUSA analog) but no 9.1? I get 7.1 and 11.1. Any ideas?


Thanks


----------



## jdhlll




holl_ands said:


> To match impedances, you would need to feed each Preamp, using an RF Splitter on the signal from the antenna....which reduces sensitivity by about 4 dB.
> 
> There is a better way to do this....
> 
> 
> Thanks. Would prefer option 2 but don't want to run an A/C circuit to the mast location. Notice you show an optional preamp for each TV. What would be the function of the preamps? Also, thought a signal would not pass through a preamp without the power module?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *theratpatrol* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I wouldn't use it either. But I just did a search for outdoor antenna on radioshack.com and couldn't find any, did they stop selling them?



All they have now are Terk look-alikes, which means you don't want to waste your money on them.


A Channel Master 4221 would be way better than what you've got there, and they're relatively cheap (about $25 +shipping.) Radio Shack antennas don't tend to hold up well in outdoor installations. I'd steer clear of them and look to Channel Master, Winegard, or AntennasDirect.


----------



## sammy50

Okay another noob here - would appreciate some wisdom... thanks in advance


I have a Zenith LCD HD w/ NTSC Tuner - first off do I still need a separate HDTV receiver?


Assuming I needed one I bought a RadioShack Accurian and hooked it up. Having looked at several posts I bought several VHF/UHF indoor antennas to try - RS-2, Philips-2, etc. the best reception I could get was a 49 (percent?) and after checking what channels I captured - I didnt' get any. I placed the antennas outside and even in the attic. I live in Atlanta within 10 miles of several towers and my house is on a ridge (not down in valley). I do have tall trees on my property.


Can anyone help? Or point me to a list of the basics? If this doesn't work - everything is going back! Thank you


----------



## rdwalt

If your TV only has an NTSC tuner then yes you will need an HDTV receiver - HD is ATSC. You need to try the Channel Master 4221 in the attic and outside. Tree leaves will affect your signal but the good news is Fall is here!


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sammy50* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Okay another noob here - would appreciate some wisdom... thanks in advance
> 
> 
> I have a Zenith LCD HD w/ NTSC Tuner - first off do I still need a separate HDTV receiver?
> 
> 
> Assuming I needed one I bought a RadioShack Accurian and hooked it up. Having looked at several posts I bought several VHF/UHF indoor antennas to try - RS-2, Philips-2, etc. the best reception I could get was a 49 (percent?) and after checking what channels I captured - I didnt' get any. I placed the antennas outside and even in the attic. I live in Atlanta within 10 miles of several towers and my house is on a ridge (not down in valley). I do have tall trees on my property.
> 
> 
> Can anyone help? Or point me to a list of the basics? If this doesn't work - everything is going back! Thank you



The Accurian will display a 49% reading whenever it is tuned to a strong analog channel (which it can't tune) so that could be your problem. Did you autoscan for the channels? The digital channels are different than the analog ones and you need to scan for the channels or input the real digital channel number to receive the digital broadcast. Once the digital channel has been successfully received (but not before) the box will re-map the station so you can use the old analog number. NTSC is the old analog standard so if the TV only has an NTSC tuner then you do need a box for digital. To find out about the digital stations in your area go to www.antennaweb.org select choose an antenna and then put in your address. In the channel list the last column is the real digital channel number before it gets re-mapped.


----------



## sammy50

Thanks deconvolver for the quick reply - I did check antennaweb and after getting everything together I did the autoscan and didn't get any channels. I guess I'll try to manually select them.


So in this example:

WSB-DT 2.1 ABC ATLANTA GA 177° 9.7 39

(where WSB analog is channel 2) I need to input the digital channel "39" - right..


Thanks


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sammy50* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks deconvolver for the quick reply - I did check antennaweb and after getting everything together I did the autoscan and didn't get any channels. I guess I'll try to manually select them.



I guess that I'd follow RDwalt's & deconvolver's assertions that if'n you ain't got an ATSC receiver, tuning to anything is not going to get you a digital channel.


An ATSC receiver should be able to program the stations for you.

....jc


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sammy50* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks deconvolver for the quick reply - I did check antennaweb and after getting everything together I did the autoscan and didn't get any channels. I guess I'll try to manually select them.
> 
> 
> So in this example:
> 
> WSB-DT 2.1 ABC ATLANTA GA 177° 9.7 39
> 
> (where WSB analog is channel 2) I need to input the digital channel "39" - right..
> 
> 
> Thanks



Right. Also aim your indoor antenna south (177°) through a window as high up as you can get it. For a DB-2 the front is the bow-ties and the back is the screen. For a silver sensor type you aim it by pointing the arrow in the desired direction. Antennaweb should also tell you what type of antenna is needed- a properly aimed directional one is better than an omni antenna. If there are buildings etc. in the way they could be blocking the signal; you might need an outdoor antenna in that case.


I just checked the fcc website and WSB-DT is broadcasting at 1000KW with a decent antenna height, I would think it should be easy to get only 9.7 miles away. One thing to try is to first connect the antenna directly to the TV's antenna input and tune an analog UHF channel from the same location to point the antenna. So you could tune WPBA channel 30 and adjust the antenna for a good picture. Then move the antenna cable to the Accurian antenna input and switch the TV to view the Accurian's picture before trying to tune WSB-DT.


----------



## sammy50

Thanks to you all - still no channels - My Accurian is ATSC receiver - right?

I do get 4 to 5 snowy analog channels when I hook the indoor antenna direct to the back of the TV. So I do get analog reception.

Now back to using the antenna thru the HD Receiver - I tried AutoScan and manual input of several numbers via the remote control - no picture.

The Signal Strength always shows in the yellow range (approx "49") and it says "Picture Quality is best when green. On the "meter" the SNR fluctuates between 16 and 17.5 - not sure what that means... Any other thoughts?


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sammy50* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks to you all - still no channels - My Accurian is ATSC receiver - right?



Sorry, I missed the fact that you also picked up one of those!










Many possibilities: Signals are too weak, antenna not connected properly, bad Accurian.


U might try a longer cable and trying to get the antenna outside to see if that helps. Not a solution, but at least you'll be able to eliminate a few things.

....jc


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sammy50* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I do get 4 to 5 snowy analog channels when I hook the indoor antenna direct to the back of the TV. So I do get analog reception.



10 miles and you're on a ridge and you've got snow? Sounds to me like your antenna isn't hooked up properly. Try a different balun. Double-check coax connectors.


How does it compare to the analogs on this page: http://www.geocities.com/figbert/8vsb.html


----------



## sammy50

Hey sregener - I hooked up a RS powered antenna direct to the back of the TV - (so in ANALOG) - I get Fox strong, ABC very good with some lines (similar to your link), one of the PBS very good, NBC only fair and CBS not at all. It must be the trees. What's a balun??


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How does it compare to the analogs on this page: http://www.geocities.com/figbert/8vsb.html



Just curious, what receiver do you use? I didn't catch it in the review.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sammy50* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey sregener - I hooked up a RS powered antenna direct to the back of the TV - (so in ANALOG) - I get Fox strong, ABC very good with some lines (similar to your link), one of the PBS very good, NBC only fair and CBS not at all. It must be the trees. What's a balun??



Ah... You shouldn't be using a powered antenna. They're bad news. I assume your Fox, ABC and PBS are on VHF (channels 2-13.) Most digitals (I know Atlanta has an exception) are on UHF, which means that the comparisons aren't valid. TBS is on channel 17, I believe, which would be a good test.


A balun is a part that has a 300 Ohm connector on one side (two wires) and a coaxial connection on the other (center pin + outer shield.) It's called a balun because it's a balanced/unbalanced connector.


You should return the powered antenna posthaste and replace it with a good indoor antenna. Options include the Radio Shack double-bowtie, the Zenith Silver Sensor, or the AntennasDirect DB2. Any should be a vast improvement for digital reception.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just curious, what receiver do you use? I didn't catch it in the review.



Zenith C32V37 internal tuner.


I'll admit that results weren't quite as good with a Samsung SIR-T151, though remarkably close for most stations.


----------



## sammy50

Thanks sregener


Sorry on the reply to cpcat - realized that it was a question to you after I sent it


Ive been reading the ATL thread and the Channel Master 4228 seems to be the ticket for most everyone. The NBC affiliate is the UHF exception - thanks so much for helping a noob! All best


----------



## Geordon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have had this preamp for a while: http://www.researchcomms.com/hdtv.html and finally installed it at the antenna replacing a Winegard AP-4700. It has a specified noise figure of 0.4dB. It made a noticeable improvement with signal qualities going up from 5 to 15 points on weak stations. As far as overload goes, in one direction I have one strong station at 13 miles running one megawatt WPXQ-DT. I see no sign of overload on a spectrum analyzer or on analog stations from it. In a different direction I have two strong stations at 11.5 miles WHPX analog and digital running 2.8 Meg and 90KW. I can see strong intermodulation products all over the UHF TV band on the spectrum analyzer and sync bars on analog station on the TV. John



Are you saying this is better than the AP4700? How can I order one of these? Do I have to order directly from the UK? What kind of price are we looking at?


I have a DAT-75 roof mounted on a CM rotator. No pre-amp or distribution amp. Local and distant (11 mi to 60 mi) OTA HD channels are pretty good if I don't split the signal. Splitter leads to blocking and fluctuating signal strength. I use QS RG-6, and place the splitter at the distribution point in the basement (about 40' between antenna and splitter, then 30' to each receiver). Since I have two RG-6 leads from the attic, am I better off splitting the signal there, and running 70' to receiver, or leave as is?


Thanks,


Geordon


----------



## ctdish

The Research Comm. preamp is the best one out there for receiving weak signals. I paid $150 US including shipping for it. I contacted them via E-mail and used a credit card.

If your receiption is OK without splitter or preamp, any preamp will probably improve the signal, if you do not get overload. With one station close you should try to get a preamp with as low gain as possible. The preamp should be located at the antenna. The splitter can be put anywhere between the receivers and the power inserter. John


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Zenith C32V37 internal tuner.
> 
> 
> .



I suspected it was LG-ish by looking at your pics. Don't know what generation it is, though.


----------



## Geordon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The Research Comm. preamp is the best one out there for receiving weak signals. I paid $150 US including shipping for it. I contacted them via E-mail and used a credit card.
> 
> If your receiption is OK without splitter or preamp, any preamp will probably improve the signal, if you do not get overload. With one station close you should try to get a preamp with as low gain as possible. The preamp should be located at the antenna. The splitter can be put anywhere between the receivers and the power inserter. John



You got a real good deal. I was just quoted 143 GBP for the 9250 preamp + 9251 power supply + S&H, which converts to $250 US!


Guess I will have to go for the $50 AP-4700. Oh, well...


Geordon


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I suspected it was LG-ish by looking at your pics. Don't know what generation it is, though.



Supposedly fourth.


I created the page in response to those who claimed that ATSC 8VSB is a total failure because people can't get reliable reception. My comparison page is intended to show that the standard does work, and surprisingly well. I consider the pictures of WHLA to be conclusive. I'm including the topographic map so you can see just how poor my location is.


The page has proven useful for people who need to compare their analog pictures, though, so I keep referencing it.


----------



## ctdish

I did not get the power supply. John


----------



## Geordon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I did not get the power supply. John



That would save me $75 plus some shipping, hopefully. Much closer to your number. What would I use, instead? Do you have a Radio Shack PSU?


The AP-4700 might be too much amp, right? If I don't get the 9250, would the DHP-296 be a good choice?


Geordon


----------



## gshamill

I have a grounding question.

Sorry if this is the wrong thread, but as I read along it became apparent some knowledgable people are reading this.

Anyway, I just installed an antenna-pre amp & rotor to my chimney and need to ground the whole set up. I understand I need to use a grounding block at the nearest point of entry.

Here is my problem, there is no direct route to the ground from my chimney. The grounding wire would have to lay on my roof. Actually my chimney lies in two valleys so the ground wire would have to go up before it could go down to the ground.I know this would be look bad but would it be safe?

The second option would be to run the ground wire into the attic then ground to a pipe or possibly back outside at a less conspicuous place. Is this second option safe? If so do I then need to use a covered wire?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Geordon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That would save me $75 plus some shipping, hopefully. Much closer to your number. What would I use, instead? Do you have a Radio Shack PSU?
> 
> 
> The AP-4700 might be too much amp, right? If I don't get the 9250, would the DHP-296 be a good choice?
> 
> 
> Geordon



I think you mean the Winedgard HDP-269 right? That is a good choice for an amp that does not overload easily.


----------



## Geordon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think you mean the Winedgard HDP-269 right? That is a good choice for an amp that does not overload easily.



I meant Winegard HDP-296. I see we both have butter fingers. Thanks.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> . I'm including the topographic map so you can see just how poor my location is.
> 
> 
> .




That's pretty tough. I think tougher than mine. Here's a profile to WVLT-DT in Knoxville from my location followed by one from WCYB-DT in Bristol. WCYB is at 110 miles and is much easier for me even though WVLT is only 66 mi. I think you can see why.


----------



## de8212

I just received a Zenith Silver Sensor indoor antenna to receive my local OTA HD channels.

I get WRDW-DT fine but WAGT-DT seems to get pixelated a bit too much. I did adjust the antenna and it got a little better but not perfect.

I know very littel about this so I have soem questions.

Both of the above mentioned stations are 121 degrees so the antenna should be pointing the same directions for both, right?

WAGT is .6 miles further, is that probably the reason it's pixelated?


Would an amplifier be something I should try? If so, what brand/model, etc.?

If not, what else could I do?


Also WFXG-DT is 120 degrees and 20.1 miles so would the amplifier help it out much? I can't remember how it looked but I know it was not good.

Thanks for any help.


----------



## ken kipnes

I live in New Hampshire, surrounded by trees. I have DirecTV; ABC denied my request to get the ABC network feed from DirecTV because there is an ABC station, WMUR, is 10 miles away. The problem is, the WMUR OTA signal is spotty at best. I'd like to try to get the ABC, WB and UPN signals from Boston, 40 miles away.


I entered my data into Antennaweb and got these results:


red - uhf WNEU 60 TEL MERRIMACK NH 336° 10.3 60

red - uhf WNEU-DT 60.1 TEL MERRIMACK NH 336° 10.3 34

red - uhf WPXG-DT 33.1 i CONCORD NH 33° 22.9 33

red - vhf WMUR 9 ABC MANCHESTER NH 336° 10.3 9

red - uhf WMUR-DT 9.1 ABC MANCHESTER NH 336° 10.3 59

red - uhf WPXG 21 i CONCORD NH 33° 22.9 21

red - uhf WZMY 50 IND DERRY NH 175° 9.8 50

red - uhf WUTF 66 TFA MARLBOROUGH MA 198° 33.5 66

red - uhf WUNI 27 UNI WORCESTER MA 215° 39.0 27

blue - vhf WENH 11 PBS DURHAM NH 46° 24.7 11

blue - uhf WENH-DT 57.1 PBS DURHAM NH 46° 24.7 57

blue - uhf WUTF-DT 66.1 TFA MARLBOROUGH MA 198° 33.5 23

blue - uhf WZMY-DT 35.1 IND DERRY NH 175° 9.8 35

violet - uhf WNNE 31 NBC HARTFORD VT 324° 64.0 31
*violet - uhf WSBK 38 UPN BOSTON MA 178° 40.9 38*

violet - vhf WYCN-LP 13 FMN NASHUA NH 197° 7.3 13

violet - vhf WMTW 8 ABC POLAND SPRING ME 42° 76.1 8

violet - uhf WMFP 62 SAH LAWRENCE MA 165° 40.6 62

violet - uhf WNAC 64 FOX PROVIDENCE RI 188° 69.4 64

violet - uhf WFXT 25 FOX BOSTON MA 178° 40.9 25

violet - vhf WGBH 2 PBS BOSTON MA 179° 40.1 2

violet - uhf WGBX 44 PBS BOSTON MA 179° 40.1 44

violet - vhf WHDH 7 NBC BOSTON MA 177° 40.5 7

violet - vhf WJAR 10 NBC PROVIDENCE RI 188° 69.8 10

violet - vhf WBZ 4 CBS BOSTON MA 179° 40.1 4

violet - vhf WCSH 6 NBC PORTLAND ME 44° 78.0 6
*violet - vhf WCVB 5 ABC BOSTON MA 179° 40.1 5*

violet - uhf WBPX 68 i BOSTON MA 167° 40.8 68

violet - uhf W33AK 33 FMN NASHUA NH 197° 7.3 33

violet - uhf WUNI-DT 27.1 UNI WORCESTER MA 215° 39.0 29
*violet - uhf WLVI 56 WB CAMBRIDGE MA 178° 40.9 56*

violet - uhf WYDN 48 DAY WORCESTER MA 225° 44.9 48

violet - uhf WVTA 41 PBS WINDSOR VT 324° 63.6 41

violet - vhf WPRI 12 CBS PROVIDENCE RI 188° 69.1 12


The list doesn't show the digital channels for WCVB, WLVI or WSBK. I've seen other lists where they are mentioned.


My questions:


1) Will there be any chance of receiving these stations from 40+ miles away?

2) Can you suggest the best outdoor antennas for this task?


Thanks!


ken


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ken kipnes* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1) Will there be any chance of receiving these stations from 40+ miles away?
> 
> 2) Can you suggest the best outdoor antennas for this task?



1) Yes. There is even a good chance. But I'd check this map of WSBK-DT's coverage area for a better idea: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DT614548.html 


(To get coverage maps for other stations, do the following: Go to http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html and enter the call sign of the station you want. Select 'TV Query' from the output list. Submit the form. On the next screen, there will be a list of information. Find the current digital station info and click on the "Service Contour Map" link.)


I've been able to beat the FCC's estimates by about 10 miles, on average, using a high-quality installation. But there are a lot of factors involved, and not everyone should expect to beat the odds.


2) I'd go with the AntennasDirect 91XG. Other good choices include the Channel Master 4228 and the Winegard PR-9032. You may want to try a Channel Master 7777 preamplifier, but be prepared to return it if it gets overloaded with the stations nearby.


Keep in mind that with heavy trees, you will likely have some reception difficulties, especially in windy weather. Still, I'd bet that at 40 miles, you'll get perfect reception all the time if you get your antenna up high enough.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1) Yes. There is even a good chance. But I'd check this map of WSBK-DT's coverage area for a better idea: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DT614548.html
> 
> 
> (To get coverage maps for other stations, do the following: Go to http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html and enter the call sign of the station you want. Select 'TV Query' from the output list. Submit the form. On the next screen, there will be a list of information. Find the current digital station info and click on the "Service Contour Map" link.)
> 
> 
> I've been able to beat the FCC's estimates by about 10 miles, on average, using a high-quality installation. But there are a lot of factors involved, and not everyone should expect to beat the odds.
> 
> 
> 2) I'd go with the AntennasDirect 91XG. Other good choices include the Channel Master 4228 and the Winegard PR-9032. You may want to try a Channel Master 7777 preamplifier, but be prepared to return it if it gets overloaded with the stations nearby.
> 
> 
> Keep in mind that with heavy trees, you will likely have some reception difficulties, especially in windy weather. Still, I'd bet that at 40 miles, you'll get perfect reception all the time if you get your antenna up high enough.



I think that the fcc service contour maps are just based on the antenna beampatterns and height above average terrain; I don't think that they take local topography into account so they are not much use. Antennaweb does take topography into account but their digital predictions are pessimistic so you may get digital stations that they don't list at all. In that case if there are analog stations in the same antenna farm with similar power, antenna height and frequency then sometimes you can use the antennaweb analog predictions which are optimistic to get an idea on the digital reception.


----------



## A Buck

I live about 25 miles from Chicago right next to the train tracks. I have a Zenith Silver Sensor that picked up most UHF signals but was highly directional and needed to be tweeked frequently. I just noticed that if I point the OTA atenna north out the window at the railroad tracks (and parking garage) I get 80% + signal on everything. Could the Railroad tracks reflect the signal?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think that the fcc service contour maps are just based on the antenna beampatterns and height above average terrain; I don't think that they take local topography into account so they are not much use. Antennaweb does take topography into account but their digital predictions are pessimistic so you may get digital stations that they don't list at all.



I've found the FCC's projected contours to be pretty good at figuring out how far things "should" reach. I hate Antennaweb's pessimism, and no longer recommend them as more than a starting point.


I typed in a Boston zipcode, and they rated most of the UHF stations as "violet" inside of 15 miles, and still didn't think WSBK-DT would reach. Antennaweb needs to get a clue.


----------



## HDTVChallenged

LOL ... Well after all, "we" want to sell you the biggest antenna possible to cover the situation.


----------



## ken kipnes

Thanks, everyone, for the feedback. I will look into the antennas mentioned.


ken


----------



## sp1dey

Quick question for the OTA gurus. I posted this in my regional forum but this is much more active... I'm in Northern CT and get great OTA signal on everything except WB and ABC. When I check the OTA meter, both channels are in the 80's and peak at 90... should be strong enough. But both channels frequently drop out, freeze, or become very pixelated. Since both channels are VHF and operate at low frequencies, 10 and 11... could this be FM interference and would a FM trap help? Also can FM interference become more prominent in bad weather because my signal is now weaker? All my other channels are UHF and get similar meter readings (80's to low 90's) but without any dropoffs.


----------



## kflorek




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is having the stranded ground wire (the stripped end since I wanted white) exposed in the weather going to make it corrode, etc. more than a solid one? I suppose... Anything to do to for protection?



Since I'm rather old (born 1946) and have been through several generations of corrosion fixes, I tend to think some prevention is worth a modest effort. There is nothing that truely stops corrosion; you just delay the inevitable, hopefully a long time.


There is a grease in a 1 ounce tube that will be called something like "no-corrode" or "oxy-gard" in large electrical departments, such as Home Depot. It is readily available for use with service entrance wiring which is normally aluminum, probably in most of the US. But the directions on Ox-gard indicate it is a general purpose product, not only for aluminum, being that it is also for use on automobile battery terminals, which usually are lead. I put it on the enclosed contact parts of the wiring for the grounding block, the coaxial cables and the ground wire. However, in an unsheltered location the weather would probably wash it away in a year or two. For sealing the external metallic parts I used "rope caulk," sometimes found by the weather stripping rather then by the paint or caulk. Inside the box, it looks like children's modeling clay shaped into a 1/4 inch thick rope. I like it because it is not messy and is easy to peal off in case you need to. Caulk in a tube is neither. There is another material sold in a block about a foot long and 1 1/2 inches thick in the electrical department, that I recently noticed, called something like "duct seal." ($1.95) I guess the idea is to seal around holes that electrical wiring has been run through. It is stickier and softer than rope caulk. It looks like the what is wrapped around the conduit at the top of my electrical meter to keep water from running in. This around the connection to the ground rod would protect it very well.


I think you (DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR) also wondered whether corrosion was responsible for the aluminum wiring "just breaking off" of the ground rod. Probably it was for a different reason. I'd think aluminum would hold up to corrosion better than copper.


The problem is that nicking a wire, even a little, disposes it to a phenomenon that concentrates stress at the weakest point. People that work in various materials often use the principle to advantage. They score a materal, like glass, and it magically breaks at just that line with a little pressure or working. Wires that have a little nick in them break off if you bend them a small number of times, even though they may hold up indefinitely otherwise. My experience with aluminum wire is that is more susceptible to this. Just put a sharp kink in it, and it'll break with a couple of bends.


When you attach a wire to a ground rod, the clamp puts a kink in it. So the connection needs to be "immobilized" to hold up. It is not a problem in house wiring, because it normally IS immobilized. Where wire is in the open, people, animals, the wind, or whatever tend to move it around. Using a very thick wire, or alternatively a flexible wire, may help keep the vulnerable point from flexing. Maybe a cable tie. They usually say to bury the ground rod connection, which should immobilze it, but subject it to worse corrosion. Nothing beats the damp, oxygenated dirt that is near the surface for accelerating corrosion (or fungal rot on wood.)


The problems using aluminum in electrical connections are that the corrosion is a far tougher substance than what gets on copper, and less conductive. Aluminum oxide is second to diamond in hardness, and is a fabulous insulator. It is used as an insulator in sub-micron thicknesses in micro chips for instance. The corrosion on copper is displaced by modest pressure or friction. The corrosion products on copper ionize in water, becoming no worse conductors than dirt, so copper ground rods are OK. The soluabilty of aluminum oxide is next to nothing. That's probably why I've never heard of an aluminum ground rod.


As for protecting the wire itself from corrosion, they don't seem to do it. If you see a small half cylinider tube running down an electric pole, it conceals a ground wire. Look under it, and it looks like bare copper, a little corroded. Perhaps the oxide coating on copper is as protective as anything else you might put on it. Oxides on some metals protect it. Gold is said to remain shiney because its oxide is so impenetrable to oxygen. The oxide layer is transparent because it is so thin. Stainless steel is the same. Too bad rust on iron is just the opposite.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sp1dey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When I check the OTA meter, both channels are in the 80's and peak at 90... should be strong enough. But both channels frequently drop out, freeze, or become very pixelated. Since both channels are VHF and operate at low frequencies, 10 and 11... could this be FM interference and would a FM trap help? Also can FM interference become more prominent in bad weather because my signal is now weaker?



Well, you leave out at least one important detail: your tuner brand and model. Signal meters are not the same, and while one may give you solid reception with a "3" another may require "65%." If the signal strength doesn't drop when the channels drop out, then it is probable that you have the dreaded "matrixed" meter, which takes signal strength (in dB) and combines it with signal quality to arrive at some number. It's like seeing a sum of C and trying to guess what the A and B were.


So you're having problems with VHF reception, but your UHF reception is solid. How distant are the channels you're trying to receive? What antenna are you using? Where is the antenna mounted? Are you using an amplifier, and if so what kind?


Could it be FM interference? Of course. Channel 10 is at 192-198Mhz, which happens to be half the wavelength of 96-99Mhz, smack dab in the middle of the FM range. I get terrible FM interference on analog channel 8, and if I turn my antenna just right, I can actually listen to the station that is causing the offending problem. If you have an FM trap, you should give it a shot. Another option is to get a VHF-Hi/VHF-Lo combiner and leave the VHF-Lo side unattached to your antenna (or any antenna, for that matter.) That would cut off the FM frequencies perfectly, while leaving your digital reception okay.


But Hi-VHF is also subject to impulse noise. Impulse noise can come from electrical devices (including those not on your property - some people have all sorts of interference when their neighbors turn on the microwave, for instance.) It can also come from lightning. In fact, one of the strongest arguments against using the VHF frequencies for digital reception is that impulse noise during severe weather could knock out the signal just at the point where public safety information is most important. I suspect this is what you're seeing in "bad weather." There's nothing you can do about lightning, and little you can do about electrical sources of the problem if they're not on your property.


You could try to isolate the problem if its electrical by turning off various circuits at your circuit-breaker box and see if the problem goes away. (If you have an analog VHF-Hi station to use, this will be much easier to see - impulse noise looks like multicolored lines going across the picture and scrolling up the screen. FM noise looks more like a pattern or blockiness.) Disconnect everything not needed to test your system and see if things improve.


Anyway, that's probably a longer explanation than you wanted, and gives you more options and things to try than you wanted. But there are no magic devices we can plug in that just make reception work. If there were, this forum would be a lot quieter.


----------



## kflorek




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Actually, it's not 50-year-old technology. It's something much older called copyrights.
> 
> 
> ....
> 
> In order for Congress to rule that networks had to distribute their programming FTA, they would have to modify copyright laws to do so, removing the rights of the intellectual property creator to decide how to distribute their IP. I can see no reason why Congress should remove this right, nor do I believe it to be in the best interests of us, the viewers. If local broadcasting went away, the advertising dollars would follow, which means episodes of our favorite shows that cost upwards of $1 million each, would disappear.



I don't think copyright is much of an obstacle, assuming there is something along these lines in the copyright laws. Congress has countless mandates on actual property and they daily invent new rationales for more. It's endless. It is a fact they are more solicitous to ficticious property than actual property, but I don't think that is what is going on here.


Congressmen always try to preserve what is in their localities. Stations are located in some congressman's district. Beyond that, they want to preserve local content (by which I do NOT mean reruns on the locals), which they justly fear would diminish if local stations didn't have the big revenue stream from network affiliation. Stations get paid for national ads that the networks carry. What would happen if bypassed is that local stations would either get less for carrying network shows, or not get paid and have to pay for content.


I remember, long ago there was a local station that dropped some network shows on one evening when the ratings were so terrible they could do better with their own content (old movies). Their contract with the network only required a certain number of must-carry hours; they could opt out for several hours. Normally the local gets more for carrying the network prime time shows than they could possibly make any other way, so this was very unusual. And annoying, because I used to watched one of the shows they dropped.


I think the networks would love to bypass the locals. Congress is forcing them to operate through locals. The only thing the networks may get out of it is some additional audience from those not hooked to cable or satellite. But mandates are not benificial in total. Any mandate one way or the other subverts a system that would better suit the general population, as they choose it.


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A Buck* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live about 25 miles from Chicago right next to the train tracks. I have a Zenith Silver Sensor that picked up most UHF signals but was highly directional and needed to be tweeked frequently. I just noticed that if I point the OTA atenna north out the window at the railroad tracks (and parking garage) I get 80% + signal on everything. Could the Railroad tracks reflect the signal?



Possibly but not likely. UHF is pretty dead by the time you get below 12" unless you're on a large perfectly smooth surface. So not much signal would even reach the tracks. More likely is the parking garage. Large metal or concrete walls reflect signals pretty well.


----------



## kflorek




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> I think most of us would prefer not to get up from our lazy chair, walk across the room, and turn a knob in order to change channels. That is so.... 1970s.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



As it happens, I don't qualify as a TV afficianado. I see my OTA HD on a 19" computer monitor two feet away using a $130 ATI HDTV Wonder card. The rotor control is right at hand, so I don't have to get up to twist the knob. I actually like getting up though. My butt un-numbs if I move occasionally.







The picture quality I get now is astounding. When they broadcast things that were not originally digital, it is too obvious, although still absolutely beautiful. For days, I would watch TV programs (pathetic trash) just to drool over the perfection and look for stuff that you couldn't possibly see on analog.







I've gotten over that finally.


What even got me started was that the station that is practically the only one I watch (the PBS one) - and I watch very little- got struck by lightning and was out for three months. It was too dangerous for the contractor to work in all the rain and snow, they said (at their web site.) But their digital broadcast, on a different tower, was intact. So I investigated HDTV, which I never gave a crap about before. All too expensive for practically nothing in return, except for possibly a plug in computer card. I didn't buy anything at the time. The rebate went off and bumped the price $20. It only got me thinking about some new gadgetry I could get. I enjoyed the hiatus in TV viewing and substituted listened to the radio in the evening more. The fact that this was a satisfactory substitute shows you my enthusiasm for TV programs.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Part of the reason I went with the CM remote was because it was the only motor that was different. All the others come from the same factory in China, and my original rotor lasted less than two years from them. Believe me, it wasn't a happy day when I risked an icy roof to turn the antenna from its locked-up position as a stop-gap until spring when I could replace the rotor safely. Months of staticy, poor reception convinced me I needed a motor that would last.



Concerning the one that gave up, did something happen to it, or did it just quit? What were the symptoms? Was it flakey before it quit? Did it bust a gear? What brand was it? Did it have a warranty?


Actually, if I remember, you are one of those guys with a monster antenna array load for a home-duty antenna rotor. Yeah, if you are one of those guys, you are fortunate if even a CM rotor holds up. But there are HAM radio operators that use some of the more modest HF antennas with a CM rotor, so it has potential.


What I did to keep the load low, is to keep the top masts short and not get too ambitious with the antenna. The VHF/UHF combo is 6" above the motor. The UHF only yagi/corner reflector has a tiny wind profile and I went with 1'6." Actually I cut both top masts to 2' and clamped the antennas lower. That was in case I hit some adverse signal null on my essential channel.


The wind was reportedly up to 55mph one day. I went out to watch for a while and neither wiggled significantly. So they are OK in normal winds. If the wind gets up to 80mph or more, I would not be upset if something gave. I would consider that normal for home level installation. If it wasn't wrecked, I'd considet that a bonus. The force of the wind goes up as the fourth power of the velocity.


Years ago, in my former home, where I had a CM rotor, there was the worst storm I know of in this area. I don't recall any numbers on the wind, but water was squirting through the cracks around the windows and flowing under the side door. I kept mopping up the stream by the door so it wouldn't flow down the basement stairs. It was raining horizontally, if you can call it rain. It was like a firehose blast. It was quite amazing. That side of the house was plastered with leaves stuck onto the brick when the storm was over. The lower antenna mast bent about 2 feet above the chimney. It was about 8 foot total above the chimney. The antenna was unharmed (a 9' CM). The rotor was fine. The chimney was fine of course. The wind directly on the chimney was probably a bigger load than from the antenna. Once the mast bent, it took off most of that load from the chimney. Yes, bending is a safety feature. You don't want a mast strong enough to hold up to 100mph winds. That could further stress your chimney, or rip open your roof for a roof mount. I just put up a new lower mast and that was it. Not much of an expense, considering.


----------



## sp1dey




> Quote:
> Well, you leave out at least one important detail: your tuner brand and model. Signal meters are not the same, and while one may give you solid reception with a "3" another may require "65%." If the signal strength doesn't drop when the channels drop out, then it is probable that you have the dreaded "matrixed" meter, which takes signal strength (in dB) and combines it with signal quality to arrive at some number. It's like seeing a sum of C and trying to guess what the A and B were.



I'm using a DirecTV HR10-250 (tivo) tuner with a Channel Master 3016 antenna. Not sure how it calculates the signal. But my UHF all come in perfect with no dropout ever. My two VHF channels (at frequency 10 and 11) are 35 and 12 miles away respectively. They clearly fluctuate the most but hover around 80-90 mostly. I'll try the FM trap, but should this give me little positive results, I'll try your other options. Thanks for the input.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kflorek* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think the networks would love to bypass the locals. Congress is forcing them to operate through locals. The only thing the networks may get out of it is some additional audience from those not hooked to cable or satellite.



Do you have a source that proves that Congress is forcing NBC to distribute programming through broadcast networks?


As far as what the networks get out of it, I think that's obvious. ESPN's Sunday Night Football broadcast of the Eagles vs. Redskins game got a 9 share, but that was only among cable viewers. It was the top-rated cable program of the year.


Here's the top-20 network shows: http://tv.zap2it.com/tveditorial/tve_main/1,1002,272|||weekly,00.html 


Here's the top-15 cable shows:
http://tv.zap2it.com/tveditorial/tve_main/1,1002,272|||weekly,00.html 


Notice how the top cable show wouldn't even make the top-20 broadcast shows.


No, I don't buy the "Congress forces the networks to use local broadcasters" argument. The networks use the local broadcasters because that is where the money is. NBC could just as easily use Bravo, ABC could use "ABC Family", CBS could use MTV, and they could run worthless programming on their broadcast networks if Congress did force them to have broadcast networks. They don't, and Congress doesn't.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kflorek* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Concerning the one that gave up, did something happen to it, or did it just quit? What were the symptoms? Was it flakey before it quit? Did it bust a gear? What brand was it? Did it have a warranty?
> 
> 
> Actually, if I remember, you are one of those guys with a monster antenna array load for a home-duty antenna rotor. Yeah, if you are one of those guys, you are fortunate if even a CM rotor holds up.



Both of my rotor failures (I had a CM that failed as well) exhibited themselves as "freezing up" or refusing to move from one point. The first rotor had a sticking point that would eventually give and start moving if I kept spinning the dial. Finally, during a cold point in the winter, it just plain stuck and wouldn't give, not even after it warmed up. The second one also froze up and stopped turning one day, but as the day warmed up, it began moving again. Not wanting to be stuck in a bad position, I had that one replaced quickly. I don't know the brand of the first one, as a professional installer put it up and didn't give me a box. But it really doesn't matter, as all the rotors from China are from the same factory and are made exactly the same way. I didn't take it apart to find out why it failed. The second one was still under warranty, which covered the rotor, but not the $50 the installer charged me to climb up my tower.


I had a monster antenna array for a day or two with the Channel Master rotor. No more than that. Other than that, the largest "array" I had was a Winegard HD8200P. The biggest thing on the "Made in China" rotor was a Winegard HD7084P. Right now, I'm using just an AntennasDirect 91XG. So I think you're remembering incorrectly.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sp1dey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm using a DirecTV HR10-250 (tivo) tuner with a Channel Master 3016 antenna.



The DirecTV HR10-250 is prone to overload. You may want to give a variable attenuator from Radio Shack a try. You can always return it if it doesn't help.


----------



## sammy50

To: sregener, deconvolver and TotallyPreWired:

Thanks again for your advice a few days ago - I have now joined the 21st Century and am sitting here watching AMAZING "FREE" HD football on FOX and CBS - I also get NBC, ABC, WB, PBS, TBS and a few "extras" - not sure if I should tinker with the antenna to get better signal or just count my blessings. It took a CM 4228 antenna hoisted to the top of the attic rafters and my $79++ Radio Shack Accurian (6000?) tuner. Anyway thanks again.


----------



## NightHawk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gshamill* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The second option would be to run the ground wire into the attic then ground to a pipe or possibly back outside at a less conspicuous place. Is this second option safe? If so do I then need to use a covered wire?
> 
> Thanks in advance!



The whole point of the entry ground is to try and keep lightning out of the house. Wouldn't do much good to run it back into the attic. Your first option sounds better.


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

It's me again.







I hadn't been back to create any more posts after each trial.







I saw the posts by others since my last post that I'm not quoting here (sregener, Neil Laffoon, kflorek; I think that's it). Thanks, didn't want you to think I don't appreciate your posts!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Antenna beamwidth usually narrows as frequency increases. You might double check your aim. What antenna are you using? Sorry if I missed it.



It's a 140" long Radio Shack -- the UHF part (from first director to corner reflector) is only 50".











> Quote:
> I hate to be "Mr. Rotator" all the time, but another advantage to a rotatator is it allows fine tuning of aim for marginal channels.



Where I was putting it was aimed virtually right at the problem channel that was best in the attic, and changing the aim didn't help...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greywolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Putting it on a mast instead of tying it to sheet metal across a roof peak is still my recommendation.



I know!







But there wasn't/isn't any sheet metal involved yet...




So, here's the story... about 3 weeks ago is when I just set it up there (yes, across the roof peak), just roughly aimed, and in the general area (left or right by a couple feet) of where I planned to put it permanently. I did this 2 times a few days apart to make sure it would work OK. Every channel that I wanted (5 of them) came in no lower than 63-69% I believe on my tuner. Perfectly steady with the first placement, etc. Then I took it back down after verifying, seeing as it worked so easily. Then about a week later (same position), that problem channel was weaker (it WASN'T a problem the first 2 times) -- barely being received. I didn't think much of it, figuring that it was just weaker at that moment. So a few days later when I went to mount it, it was the same way (ALL 4 other channels 69%, and never moved from that level during the 24-hour period I checked).


Then it stormed pretty heavily and everything but 1 channel went away (very weak, no picture). So I decided to replace that old, "damaged" transformer it had. That brought the 4 channels back, though they were barely below 69% then... (Not sure if the trans. got wet or what, it was all sealed as far as I could tell after the storm.)


Since then, trying to get back to the first 2 tests' levels, I have tried adjusting the angle of the corner reflectors (they can move ~3" at the end of the wings?!), using different cable, bypassing the rest of the cable and connecting directly to tuner. I don't know what else. EVERYTHING! That's in addition to trying the antenna in different places on the roof, different heights (holding it above my head, etc.), again EVERYTHING. And yet I can never get all 5 channels as "perfectly" (65%+) as the first couple tests!!










It seems to be getting worse as the days/weeks go by. Today, only 2 channels were coming in, and just *barely*.







I give up... I don't know what else to do.


The only thing left that I can think of that changed is the leaves on the trees. When I first tested, most of them were still on (but dry-ish of course), the storm blew a lot of them off, and now I think they're almost all gone in the direction of the stations. I would've thought that no leaves would be better, but maybe they were helping something in my case? Oh, of course the 1/9th power channel 20deg off-axis that I don't care about seems to ALWAYS come in no matter what.










Remember I said how clear the analogs were on the roof? Well since then, the VHFs have minor noise/static across the picture now, and the analog UHFs have more snow. The one that came in perfectly clear in the attic, and outside at first, now has visible snow -- that's the off-axis always-received digital one I mentioned above (channels 46/47 a/d).


This really sucks! Man, it was so good at first. Maybe I can go take a picture from the roof soon, just so you guys can see what it looks like in the direction of the towers.


Otherwise, any comments?


----------



## greywolf

You may have gotten water in a connection. Connectors need to be an outdoor type with a rubber O-ring seal. Putting silicone dielectric grease in the connector and boot, if any, before assembly is also a good idea. At least some types of RG6 coax have open cell foam dielectric material that can soak up water and wick it into the cable. If that happens, the ends must be trimmed until the watersoaked area is eliminated or the cable must be replaced.


----------



## greywolf

The NEC allows a ground wire to run inside the house. As of the 2002 code revision though, it does not allow grounding to a cold water pipe unless the connection to the pipe is within five feet of the pipe's entry to the building and the electrical panel is also grounded to the pipe within that same five foot length. The purpose of an antenna/dish grounding wire is not to conduct lightning to ground but to conduct any wind induced static buildup to ground and lower the chance of a lightning strike.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greywolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...Putting silicone dielectric grease in the connector and boot, if any, before assembly is also a good idea...



Greywolf: What brand of grease do you use and where do you buy it? Thanks.


----------



## PamP

Please help. We have an old antenna on our roof that I would like to replace. For my birthday, my husband has agreed to this task but wants me to order the material. Our zip is 22739. I have been reading for the last two weeks and can't seem to figure out which antenna would work best for receiving local DC digital stations. We have directv for everything else. Could you please give me some suggestions and also include whether or not I would need to also get an amplifier for the antenna.


Pam


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Greywolf: What brand of grease do you use and where do you buy it? Thanks.



Clear silicone caulk works well.


I use Coax-Seal from RS currently. Honey bees like it in the spring as the pollen tends to coat it. They harvest the pollen and unfortunately some of the seal with it. Maybe silicone might work better for this reason.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PamP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have been reading for the last two weeks and can't seem to figure out which antenna would work best for receiving local DC digital stations.



40-odd miles out. All digitals are on UHF for now, but you probably don't want to have to re-do this in three years when WJLA and WUSA revert to channels 7 and 9.


I'd go with a Winegard HD-7084P and no preamp. It's a solid performer for both VHF and UHF. If you're willing to go UHF-only, a Channel Master 4248, Winegard PR-9032 or AntennasDirec 43XG should all work just fine.


However, DirecTV will be adding HD LiL in a little while, so I don't know if you'd prefer to get your DC stations in HD through them.


----------



## greywolf

I imagine any of the non-hardening silicone dielectric compounds would work fine. I wouldn't want to use silicone caulk in a connection that I might want to reuse. A search for silicone dielectric and RG6 is what I used to find whatever is in my toolbox right now.


----------



## PamP

Thanks for the response. I'll check out the first one you listed. I would prefer to pull the channels off the antenna vice directv if I can get decent reception.


----------



## de8212

Still looking for some help on this. Any ideas?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *de8212* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just received a Zenith Silver Sensor indoor antenna to receive my local OTA HD channels.
> 
> I get WRDW-DT fine but WAGT-DT seems to get pixelated a bit too much. I did adjust the antenna and it got a little better but not perfect.
> 
> I know very littel about this so I have soem questions.
> 
> Both of the above mentioned stations are 121 degrees so the antenna should be pointing the same directions for both, right?
> 
> WAGT is .6 miles further, is that probably the reason it's pixelated?
> 
> 
> Would an amplifier be something I should try? If so, what brand/model, etc.?
> 
> If not, what else could I do?
> 
> 
> Also WFXG-DT is 120 degrees and 20.1 miles so would the amplifier help it out much? I can't remember how it looked but I know it was not good.
> 
> Thanks for any help.


----------



## storminorm

north Atlanta here, I have a 4228/7777amp but no matter what I do I can't pull in WSB 2.1, all the rest of the digitals come in. I sent an email to antennadirect and they suggested I use a DB8 antenna wit amp.....anyone tried any of the DB antennas? DB4 or DB8 ? I live about 55 miles north of the towers in ATL.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *de8212* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Still looking for some help on this. Any ideas?



Antennas are like women....Naw, I can't say that!










#1 An indoor antenna may not provide the gain that you need. You may have to get an exterior mounted antenna.


#2 Your location could be the problem. Getting around this could be difficult.


#3 20 miles is nothing. Distance is not your problem.

....jc


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *storminorm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> north Atlanta here, I have a 4228/7777amp but no matter what I do I can't pull in WSB 2.1, all the rest of the digitals come in. I sent an email to antennadirect and they suggested I use a DB8 antenna wit amp.....anyone tried any of the DB antennas? DB4 or DB8 ? I live about 55 miles north of the towers in ATL.



I doubt a DB8 is any better than a 4228. In fact a 4228 is considered by some to be the best. Please read the HDTVprimer and it's here. It will explain quite a few things that could be the problem.

....jc


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greywolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You may have gotten water in a connection.



That possibility was eliminated when, after the storm, I replaced the transformer and used a different cable (that's used for satellite otherwise, so it's fine). And that cable has weatherproof connectors (instead of me sealing them) -- not that it matters, as I've taken it in from outside between tests anyway...


That cable is 50' BTW. During the very first tests, it was going to the amp, through the house coax, etc. when it was working fine. Now it doesn't work (well very poorly I mean), whether connected through amp or directly to the tuner.










Every part in the chain has been checked and eliminated. There's also 2 separate receivers with the same result, so it's not that either... The only thing different from when it all worked (with ZERO antenna placement effort) is the leaves being off the trees from here to horizon. Could that have a negative impact? You'd think the opposite, but has anyone seen bare trees cause a problem, or is that absolutely *not possible*?


I didn't get to take a picture from the roof since it's been raining...


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Clear silicone caulk works well.
> 
> 
> I use Coax-Seal from RS currently. Honey bees like it in the spring as the pollen tends to coat it. They harvest the pollen and unfortunately some of the seal with it. Maybe silicone might work better for this reason.



Silicone caulk, unlike silicone grease, often uses corrosive solvent making it unsuitable for this application.


I like coax seal, and while I have heard that about the bees before, I doubt that they would haul off enough coax seal to allow the water in even one time in a thousand. I have seen what was probably pollen on this compound, but never observed any bare metal.


The newer, self-sealing connectors don't require anything covering them, but if you like, the self-vulcanizing tape like Radio Shack sells (or used to sell) works nice.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> I like coax seal, and while I have heard that about the bees before, I doubt that they would haul off enough coax seal to allow the water in even one time in a thousand.
> 
> .




You'd be wrong there. I had to redo mine even after a year. I'd say the pollen is worse here, though.


I've not seen any indication of corrosion from silicone caulk, but I assume you have so I won't recommend it any longer. It's not that easy to remove for changing connections, etc, but then Coax-seal isn't either, especially on a hot day.


It's even more difficult with bees flying around your head.


----------



## qweqaz5




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *de8212* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just received a Zenith Silver Sensor indoor antenna to receive my local OTA HD channels.
> 
> I get WRDW-DT fine but WAGT-DT seems to get pixelated a bit too much. I did adjust the antenna and it got a little better but not perfect.
> 
> I know very littel about this so I have soem questions.
> 
> Both of the above mentioned stations are 121 degrees so the antenna should be pointing the same directions for both, right?
> 
> WAGT is .6 miles further, is that probably the reason it's pixelated?
> 
> 
> Would an amplifier be something I should try? If so, what brand/model, etc.?
> 
> If not, what else could I do?
> 
> 
> Also WFXG-DT is 120 degrees and 20.1 miles so would the amplifier help it out much? I can't remember how it looked but I know it was not good.
> 
> Thanks for any help.



I've actually placed my Zenith Silver Sensor indoor antenna on the roof to receive HD OTA channels from Detroit. Its worked great for the past 6 months, giving me 80-90% signal strength on all the channels.


Not sure if it'll survive the snow though, so I'm looking to place it elsewhere....


----------



## Michael P 2341

The Silver Sensor is extremely directional. If both stations were indeed at 121 degrees you should in theory not have to reaim it. OTOH the source for the direction of the transmitter may have been off. Did you use a site that asked for your exact latitude and longitude or only one working off your zip code?


Try this site: http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp Once you input your latitude, longitude and compass offset you will eventually get all the data you need to aim (i.e. be patient, the resulting report takes a long time to download even with a very high speed broadband connection. You will get maps showing the location of the transmitter and the "pattern" of the signal - it's not always omnidirectional!)


----------



## Grayson73

I'm looking for a good budget antenna to receive local channels on a non-HD tv. This is for my mother-in-law who is still old school and doesn't have cable or satellite.


Any recommendations?


----------



## de8212

Thanks for the replies.

Michael- I used http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx so it was just my adress/zip code. How can I figure out my latitude / longitude and compass offset?

So I take it that an amp would not help my situation?

I really don't want the hassle of mounting anyhting on the roof or outside. If the best i cna do is one channle, I'll just have to live with it.

It just seems if I get the one channle so clear I shoud get the other since the distance is so close and the degrees are the same.


Thanks again for any help.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That possibility was eliminated when, after the storm, I replaced the transformer and used a different cable (that's used for satellite otherwise, so it's fine). And that cable has weatherproof connectors (instead of me sealing them) -- not that it matters, as I've taken it in from outside between tests anyway...
> 
> 
> That cable is 50' BTW. During the very first tests, it was going to the amp, through the house coax, etc. when it was working fine. Now it doesn't work (well very poorly I mean), whether connected through amp or directly to the tuner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Every part in the chain has been checked and eliminated. There's also 2 separate receivers with the same result, so it's not that either... The only thing different from when it all worked (with ZERO antenna placement effort) is the leaves being off the trees from here to horizon. Could that have a negative impact? You'd think the opposite, but has anyone seen bare trees cause a problem, or is that absolutely *not possible*?
> 
> 
> I didn't get to take a picture from the roof since it's been raining...



I read back through some of your previous posts and IMHO you have too little metal in the air for UHF,you need a better preamp like a CM7777,and you've made changes during the late Fall weather transition(usually about the time the leaves fall) which wrecks havoc on the signals when you're in the fringe.You just need more margin.I would suggest an 8-bay for UHF strategically placed for best performance on all St Louis UHF's,the above mentioned preamp,and a highband or VHF antenna placed below the UHF.The equipment should be roof mounted on a tripod,or on a tower at least 30ft above ground level.


Greg B


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> T... The only thing different from when it all worked (with ZERO antenna placement effort) is the leaves being off the trees from here to horizon. Could that have a negative impact? You'd think the opposite, but has anyone seen bare trees cause a problem, or is that absolutely *not possible*?
> 
> 
> I didn't get to take a picture from the roof since it's been raining...



Dr Larry,


Yes, I have seen it but it was not caused by the leaves, it's caused by the seasonal change in the weather. When people are out past the edge of 'normal' reception, the signal from the transmitter tends to wander up & down with the seasons and/or the weather. While temperature and pressure do affect this bending, the biggest change comes from the dew point temperature. When the dew point is high, there is more water vapor in the air and the signal tends to follow the curve of the earth. When the dew point is lower (autumn/winter) atmosphere is has less water vapor, the signal does not bend, and fringe reception changes. Folks see the leaves drop and think what you are thinking. In the spring, they see the leaves come back and think the opposite.


If memory serves me right, you are in a deep valley or canyon also. If the signal has indeed lifted, then there will be less diffraction and there will be less signal in your valley.


Again, this scenario would only be true in what we used to call the 'fringe' reception areas (out past the old grade B contour).


Bob Chase


----------



## haley-SEA

Good question should be


What channels is she interested in?


How far is she from the transmitters?


An antenna does not care if its a digital, analog, HD signal. Its only interested in the resonant frequency. This HD antenna talk is basicly marketing BS. Now the UHF only antennas are sold as HDTV ready because most digital TV stations are on the UHF range (14-69). But some UHF antennas (such as the Channel Master 4228) can receive high vhf channels 7-13 quite well, but are useless on 2-6.


Haley


radio amateur and TV dxer (WTFDA member).


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

Thanks Greg and Bob. That's some stuff I was thinking, but it helps to see someone else confirm.










Bob, regarding the weather: from the last time I checked and everything worked to when the first channel (highest frequency one, others were still OK) started getting lost was 2 days and the weather seemed to be generally the same during most of my trials. (Had been unusually warm [60s, even 70s], now it's cold for trying to do any more.







) Although it's possible that the amount of moisture in the atmosphere was decreasing anyway... I already knew about dewpoint being an indicator of *absolute* humidity, but I think it was a post of yours I read saying that wator vapor is the biggest (?) factor.










So now I started looking at trying a better antenna -- CM 4228 or Antennas Direct 91XG. Even though it costs more, I'm thinking the 91XG. It weighs less, has less wind load I think, and it sounds like from the posts in this thread that it performs as well or better than the 4228 8-bay. Oh, and looking at the graphs on HDTV Primer , it has more gain on channel 56, which was the first one to go for me, and looks to be the weakest now (0 to 20-30% on my meter, attic and outside first had it in the 60s at least). And that channel is the furthest, BTW, by a couple miles at 47.


I don't think I'm in too much of a "valley," according to holl_ands when he checked my location in Google Earth. Trying to picture it now, as a *rough* guess, I'd say the horizon is maybe a 1/3-1/2 mile away (hard for me to judge







) and almost 10 degrees up.


Problem is, I don't know what the gain is on my Radio Shack antenna, and how many dB difference there is between the reception I had and what's getting here now. I'm estimating that the RS is a little worse than the CM 3018, according to the HDTV Primer page above, since its UHF portion is 7" longer; although its corner reflectors, which I know are for low UHF, appear to be shorter. So, going by that, I hope the 91XG would be 3-4dB better anyway (maybe 2-3x more signal). However, I don't know what that means for the tuner!







How much dB difference could there have been to cause the change I've seen? Or maybe the better question is to just ask if a 91XG/4228 should perform "a lot" better than a RS?










I'd go ahead and order the 91XG, but I'm wondering about shipping cost and returning it if it doesn't work or something. I saw that Solid Signal has it with free shipping, but it looks like they have a restocking fee. Does anyone know if it's possible to return it to Antennas Direct, using their 90 day guarantee, if it wasn't purchased directly from them?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Problem is, I don't know what the gain is on my Radio Shack antenna, and how many dB difference there is between the reception I had and what's getting here now. I'm estimating that the RS is a little worse than the CM 3018, according to the HDTV Primer page above, since its UHF portion is 7" longer; although its corner reflectors, which I know are for low UHF, appear to be shorter. So, going by that, I hope the 91XG would be 3-4dB better anyway (maybe 2-3x more signal). However, I don't know what that means for the tuner!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How much dB difference could there have been to cause the change I've seen? Or maybe the better question is to just ask if a 91XG/4228 should perform "a lot" better than a RS?



Get the 91XG and sleep easy. It is a top-notch performer, and I'd guess it is at least 6dB better than anything from Radio Shack, if not more. I had a U120 for a while and the 91XG is... um... ahem.... not even in the same league. I can't imagine the UHF section on any of their combos is longer.


The problem with digital is that it can be very hard to know just how much weaker the signal has become. I've often been frustrated by being "right on the edge" of reliable reception. I got a huge improvement by going to a 54' tower from my 24' roofline, but the difference between the Winegard HD8200P I had and the 91XG was still phenomenal. Not quite as big an improvement, but the 91XG was noticably better.


What you get with the 91XG is a more directional, "hotter" antenna, which means that the signal should be cleaner than it's been. That should translate into a better signal at the tuner, which may or may not make a difference when it comes time to decode the ATSC 8VSB stream.


At least when I don't get a particular station these days, I know it isn't the antenna that's at fault. You just can't buy that kind of peace of mind. (Okay, you can, and it's from AntennasDirect for $79 + shipping.)


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When the dew point is lower (autumn/winter) atmosphere is has less water vapor, the signal does not bend, and fringe reception changes. Folks see the leaves drop and think what you are thinking. In the spring, they see the leaves come back and think the opposite.



Well, maybe my situation is atypical, but I have the opposite occur. In the summers, dew points in Minnesota can get very high. In the winter, by virtue of the fact that the temperatures get so low, dew points also get low.


While I have some stations that I am in the Grade B contours for, most of my desired stations are beyond deep fringe, over the horizon, and beyond what any models have projected I would be able to receive.


In the daytime in the summer, it is a rare day that I can get any stations from the Twin Cities to lock, and if they do lock, they break up constantly. In the evenings, things are variable - some days everything comes in (including 20kw stations) and other evenings, nothing comes in.


Now we're into November, and the trees are bare. Suddenly, stations lock during the daytime. They're usually reliable at night, too (although there are those evenings...) Once the ground gets snow covered, it will be rare to see an artifact on many of those distant stations.


I am above the local trees, but there is a ridge about 1/2 mile away that is taller than my antenna that is covered in trees. So I know I'm shooting through them. But even without the leaves, I'd need another 1000 feet or so to get line-of-sight. Somehow, that kind of tower has failed to pass the WAF.


----------



## Grayson73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *haley-SEA* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Good question should be
> 
> 
> What channels is she interested in?
> 
> 
> How far is she from the transmitters?
> 
> 
> An antenna does not care if its a digital, analog, HD signal. Its only interested in the resonant frequency. This HD antenna talk is basicly marketing BS. Now the UHF only antennas are sold as HDTV ready because most digital TV stations are on the UHF range (14-69). But some UHF antennas (such as the Channel Master 4228) can receive high vhf channels 7-13 quite well, but are useless on 2-6.



We need channels 2-69.


Would something like the Terk TV5 or Radio Shack 16-1880 be good?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Grayson73* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> We need channels 2-69.
> 
> 
> Would something like the Terk TV5 or Radio Shack 16-1880 be good?



Now, see, you didn't answer his other question: how far are you from the transmitters?


Generally speaking, no the TV5 and the 16-1880 are not good. They're horrible. Maybe you'd get something with them, but more likely you wouldn't.


----------



## Grayson73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Now, see, you didn't answer his other question: how far are you from the transmitters?
> 
> 
> Generally speaking, no the TV5 and the 16-1880 are not good. They're horrible. Maybe you'd get something with them, but more likely you wouldn't.



Her zip code is 23229.


According to AntennaWeb, she's between 5 miles and 20 miles from the stations.


Antenna

Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live

Date Compass

Orientation Miles

From Frequency


yellow - vhf WTVR 6 CBS RICHMOND VA 121° 5.2 6

yellow - vhf WRIC 8 ABC PETERSBURG VA 210° 6.0 8

yellow - uhf WRLH 35 FOX RICHMOND VA 240° 9.6 35

yellow - uhf WCVE 23 PBS RICHMOND VA 210° 6.0 23

green - uhf WUPV 65 UPN ASHLAND VA 69° 19.8 65

green - vhf WWBT 12 NBC RICHMOND VA 161° 6.9 12

lt green - uhf WCVW 57 PBS RICHMOND VA 210° 6.0 57

blue - uhf WRID-LP 48 DAY RICHMOND VA 156° 12.9 48


----------



## DaveinTucson

Forgive me if this question has been asked before - I did a search and didn't see any related topics.


What is the maximum distance for reception of digital UHF broadcasts - assuming of course no blockage of line of sight?


I'm moving to rural SE Arizona. Antennaweb shows that for the zip code (85606), I'll only get 3 analog stations from Tucson, at a distance of 50 miles from the transmitters. But in looking at "Deep Fringe Reception" antennas such as the CM 3020 and Winegard HD7082P, they indicate a max UHF reception of 60 miles. Shouldn't they to the trick in receiving digital broadcasts? There are mountain ranges between my property & Tucson, but if Antennaweb indicates I should be able to recieve the analog broadcasts, then I should be able to receive the digital broadcasts, with the proper antenna, directional orientation, position of the antenna (outdoor, as high as possible), and some good luck?


Thanks


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Grayson73* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> According to AntennaWeb, she's between 5 miles and 20 miles from the stations.



I'd try something like this: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...uct_id=2153141 


If that doesn't work, then she'll need to put something outside, preferably on her roof.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DaveinTucson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What is the maximum distance for reception of digital UHF broadcasts - assuming of course no blockage of line of sight?
> 
> 
> There are mountain ranges between my property & Tucson, but if Antennaweb indicates I should be able to recieve the analog broadcasts, then I should be able to receive the digital broadcasts, with the proper antenna, directional orientation, position of the antenna (outdoor, as high as possible), and some good luck?



There is no such thing as a maximum distance. Go out into space and you can get UHF reception for billions of miles. Back here on terra firma, a good "average" distance is 60 miles over average terrain. Mountain ranges between you and the broadcasting towers, however, is not average terrain. All bets are off.


Antennaweb is giving you "deep fringe" results for VHF signals. VHF bends more readily around objects like mountains, so it reaches further than UHF, on average. If the Tuscon stations were broadcasting their digital signals on VHF frequencies, you might have a shot. With UHF, I'd be extremely pessimistic.


However, there is such a thing as knife-edge diffraction, which may save you if you're some distance (say more than 10 miles) away from the mountains. You might get something that way, but there are no guarantees. The only way to know is to try an antenna and find out. However, don't bother going as high as possible once you've cleared local roof and tree clutter by about 10 feet. Beyond that, the deciding factor is going to be those mountains, and I'm guessing you're not going to put something up tall enough to clear those.


----------



## Grayson73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'd try something like this: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...uct_id=2153141
> 
> 
> If that doesn't work, then she'll need to put something outside, preferably on her roof.



Wow, that's pretty cheap. More expensive ones won't provide a better signal? I'm willing to go up to $50.


----------



## Jim5506




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Michael P 2341* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The Silver Sensor is extremely directional.




If you look at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/silver.html , you will see the silver sensor is not very directional at all, in fact signal remains relatively unchanged in an arc of 40 degrees.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Grayson73* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wow, that's pretty cheap. More expensive ones won't provide a better signal? I'm willing to go up to $50.



What makes an antenna perform? Is it the price? No. Is it the fancy packaging? No. It's the design, and to a lesser extent, the materials. Since we're dealing with indoor antennas, there are only a few basic designs out there. For VHF, there's really only one: rabbit ears. Anything else will not perform as well. See this page for how to get the most out of them: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/R...s.html#Getting 


For UHF, there's a bunch of antenna styles and designs. The most basic is the UHF loop. Nothing fancy about it. A slight step up the scale is the bowtie. Basically, it's a loop that has been bent inwards from the top and bottom. Beyond that, a double-bowtie with screen or the Zenith Silver Sensor are the only antennas that perform better.


Manufacturers, knowing that unwitting consumers will equate a more expensive antenna with better performance, have to justify the added cost and they do so by adding amplifiers to the package, KNOWING FULL WELL that their noisy amplifiers almost never do anybody any good indoors. They do, however, require electricity, and sound impressive (why settle for rabbit ears when you can have rabbit ears that plug into the wall... but wait! there's more... if you act now, we'll throw in an extra 20dB of gain for free!)


The antenna I pointed you to is going to do as well as (or better than) any other VHF indoor antenna on the market. You could do better on the UHF (channels above 13) side, but the odds are good that the picture will be "good enough" for grandma.


You can read more about indoor antennas here: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/G...yG.html#indoor


----------



## Grayson73

Thanks for the detailed info.


The article seems to be saying that for different channels, the rabbit ears should be extended certain lengths. I always assumed that extending the rabbit ears as long as possible would provide the best signal. Seems like it would be a pain for grandma to have to change the lengths depending on the channel. I guess I'll leave it at around 60"-70" for best overall signal?


----------



## traderdan

I live 31 miles away from Chicago and need to get a antenna that can be mounted in my attic(wife refuses to let me do this on the roof). All the antenna that I have found that could be installed in the attic are either uhf or vhf but not both for that distance. If anybody knows of an antenna that would work for me I would greatly appreciate your help.


----------



## Geordon

You can place a roof-mount antenna in your attic. The question is, do you have the space for it, especially if you need to put it on a rotor. Note that your roof will significantly reduce your signal strength of any antenna in the attic, as compared to mounting outside on the roof.


----------



## DougRuss




> Quote:
> ..................................(wife refuses to let me do this on the roof).


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, maybe my situation is atypical, but I have the opposite occur. In the summers, dew points in Minnesota can get very high. In the winter, by virtue of the fact that the temperatures get so low, dew points also get low.
> 
> 
> While I have some stations that I am in the Grade B contours for, most of my desired stations are beyond deep fringe, over the horizon, and beyond what any models have projected I would be able to receive.
> 
> 
> In the daytime in the summer, it is a rare day that I can get any stations from the Twin Cities to lock, and if they do lock, they break up constantly. In the evenings, things are variable - some days everything comes in (including 20kw stations) and other evenings, nothing comes in.
> 
> 
> Now we're into November, and the trees are bare. Suddenly, stations lock during the daytime. They're usually reliable at night, too (although there are those evenings...) Once the ground gets snow covered, it will be rare to see an artifact on many of those distant stations.
> 
> 
> I am above the local trees, but there is a ridge about 1/2 mile away that is taller than my antenna that is covered in trees. So I know I'm shooting through them. But even without the leaves, I'd need another 1000 feet or so to get line-of-sight. Somehow, that kind of tower has failed to pass the WAF.



sregener,

Well, what I said was true but over simplified. More water vapor in the atmosphere increases the K-factor. Usable transmission distances increase directly with K-factor. (K-factor is the ratio of the true earth radius and the radio earth radius.)


Perhaps your broadcasters use a shorter tower than we Houstonians do and perhaps they use the same angle of negative beam tilt. (-0.75 degrees is the most common antenna angle.) That would mean that their beam comes down to the ground sooner than ours does. Now autumn comes to you and the beam lifts, so you get more signal over the horizon. Addionally, there is a reduction in ground clutter loss. I really don't have a handle on how the loss would change from leaves to no leaves but I would imagine that it's no more than a couple of dB.


Does any of this sound plausible?


Bob


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

sregener, thanks for the additional comments on the 91XG. It's actually only $78 with free shipping from Solid Signal.







(Hopefully SS is a good place to use?) And yeah, I was just reading your Web page the other day about your different antenna trials.













> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ... a highband or VHF antenna placed below the UHF.



Can I still use the current RS antenna for VHF? (I may like to have those analogs available sometimes...)


The CM 7777 pre-amp, on its separate VHF input does it have like a low-pass filter to block the UHF, that would cause problems I assume, from a combo antenna like the mine? i.e. is the combining part more "active" than a simple reversed splitter?


And I'd guess if I can use the RS for VHF, that its corner reflectors could be removed to reduce the height, and as to not be close to the path of the 91XG? As far as placement, would it need to be more than 2-3 feet below on the mast? Or isn't the spacing an issue when they're not being used for the same frequencies? (Assuming the 7777 removes any UHF that the RS's Yagi picks up.) Hope that makes sense!


Thanks.











Edit: Besides the 7777 being a pre-amp, how does this Antennas Direct UHF/VHF combiner compare? More loss if it's passive?? And I notice it says:



> Quote:
> Example: Joining a VHF/UHF antenna with a UHF antenna will pull the VHF portion of the UHF/VHF combo and combine it with the VHF only antenna.



Assuming that last VHF is supposed to say UHF, then I guess it answers my question??


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> )
> 
> Can I still use the current RS antenna for VHF? (I may like to have those analogs available sometimes...)



Yes, the 7777 will diplex it for you. It won't hurt the vhf performance to remove the corner reflector on the uhf section.


Provide around 48 inches spacing between the two antennas on the mast for all but low band vhf. It may still work for low band but it's more likely you'll have an effect on the performance. 60 inches would be better but it may not be practical for you.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, what I said was true but over simplified. More water vapor in the atmosphere increases the K-factor. Usable transmission distances increase directly with K-factor. (K-factor is the ratio of the true earth radius and the radio earth radius.)
> 
> 
> Perhaps your broadcasters use a shorter tower than we Houstonians do and perhaps they use the same angle of negative beam tilt. (-0.75 degrees is the most common antenna angle.) That would mean that their beam comes down to the ground sooner than ours does. Now autumn comes to you and the beam lifts, so you get more signal over the horizon. Addionally, there is a reduction in ground clutter loss. I really don't have a handle on how the loss would change from leaves to no leaves but I would imagine that it's no more than a couple of dB.
> 
> 
> Does any of this sound plausible?
> 
> 
> Bob



Things become more *consistent*for me in the fall/winter. I don't think it has a thing to do with leaves. I believe it's due to the decreased frequency of tropospheric ducting conditions in the cold weather months. This makes the reception that should be consistent more so. It also decreases the frequency of those exciting "tropo events" though.


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

Thanks. So you're saying being too close would affect the VHF performance? I don't mind some degredation of that







, as long as the UHF one is fine.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Perhaps your broadcasters use a shorter tower than we Houstonians do and perhaps they use the same angle of negative beam tilt. (-0.75 degrees is the most common antenna angle.) That would mean that their beam comes down to the ground sooner than ours does. Now autumn comes to you and the beam lifts, so you get more signal over the horizon. Addionally, there is a reduction in ground clutter loss. I really don't have a handle on how the loss would change from leaves to no leaves but I would imagine that it's no more than a couple of dB.
> 
> 
> Does any of this sound plausible?



Why would the beam lift in the autumn?


The Minneapolis towers seem to be around 430m HAAT, while Houston's are at nearly 600m HAAT. But once you reach the radio horizon (which, granted would be further for the higher transmitting antenna), does it really matter how high the broadcasting tower was?


If my antenna theory is correct, I am getting nothing but tropospheric scatter for my desired stations. On those hot, humid, calm nights of summer, things really sizzle for reception, as one would expect. But I get nearly as strong (and sometimes stronger) signals constantly in the winter months. Now the ground clutter makes some sense, since snowpack makes things better.


----------



## Michael P 2341




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *de8212* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> Michael- I used http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx so it was just my adress/zip code. How can I figure out my latitude / longitude and compass offset?
> 
> So I take it that an amp would not help my situation?
> 
> I really don't want the hassle of mounting anyhting on the roof or outside. If the best i cna do is one channle, I'll just have to live with it.
> 
> It just seems if I get the one channle so clear I shoud get the other since the distance is so close and the degrees are the same.
> 
> 
> Thanks again for any help.



There are links on http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp that will help you find your exact latitude and longitude. I used the first one, which in 9 clicks will zoom into your neighborhood (you start out in space, click on the part of North America where your state is and zoom in from there). There are no street names, just the various roadways in the neighborhood, so you would have to recognize your neighborhood map by the shapes of the streets.


As far as antenna choices, amplified is not always the best choice unless you are very far from any transmitter. If you are trying to get a distant station but have a close transmitter, the close signal may overload the amplifier.


I live less than a mile from the closest transmitter and there are many more within 2 miles or less. I have to aim the Silver Sensor out a window for best results. My home has aluminum siding which I believe impedes the signal through the walls. Even with the transmitters that close, going through walls (as opposed to windows) weakens the signal enough to lose the lock on a digital signal.


----------



## sebenste

Hey gang,


I have an old ChannelMaster single screen (not double put together like they do today) 4228 UHF antenna that's been on a roof for 15 years. It's rusty, but the

balun is in very good shape. The dipoles and screen are rusty. How much will that affect reception, how can or should I get the rust off, and should I "paint" it?

If so, with what? Specific recommendations?


----------



## tmacias

I've posted these question in a few different Forums but it looks like this forum is the most appropriate. I am hoping to start the install process this weekend.


I have a CM 4228 UHF and CM 3671B VHF/FM/UHF Antenna that I plan to install on my roof. I will be combining them using a Channel Master VHF/UHF Joiner that I was told would filter out the UHF from the 3671B.


I bought the Channel Master 3671B because of the fact that some channels including local NBC and ABC are already transmitting their DTV in VHF frequencies or will be after the analog transmitters are shut down.


Questions:


1) I plan on installing the 3671B on top of a 15-20 ft mast and mount the 4228 below it. Will the 2 antennas cause signal interference with each other? Do I need to space them at a minimum spacing to prevent possible interference? Any recommendations as to how far I should space them?


2) The Channel Master 3671B is a double boom truss construction Size: 173 inch by 110 inch (L x W) (I haven't received it yet and don't know the weight). Will the weight of this and 4228 on the same pole be a problem? I am going to double guide wire the pole. One about 9 ft and the other just below the 4228.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tmacias* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1) I plan on installing the 3671B on top of a 15-20 ft mast and mount the 4228 below it. Will the 2 antennas cause signal interference with each other? Do I need to space them at a minimum spacing to prevent possible interference? Any recommendations as to how far I should space them?
> 
> 
> 2) The Channel Master 3671B is a double boom truss construction Size: 173 inch by 110 inch (L x W) (I haven't received it yet and don't know the weight). Will the weight of this and 4228 on the same pole be a problem? I am going to double guide wire the pole. One about 9 ft and the other just below the 4228.



1) Yes, they could interfere with each other. Minimum to eliminate interference? About 16 feet. Oh, and you should put the 4228 above, not below, the 3671 because UHF is much more height sensitive. (Realistically, if you get them more than 3-4' apart, the interference shouldn't be much.)


2) Yowza! I hope you're not using a rotor. I don't know what you're guying this thing to, but it's going to be one heck of a wind load. The 4228 is 16lbs by itself, and the 3671 ain't light. If this thing is going to be exposed to much wind, I'd say double-guying would be a minimum. I hope your mast is strong enough.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have an old ChannelMaster single screen (not double put together like they do today) 4228 UHF antenna that's been on a roof for 15 years. It's rusty, but the balun is in very good shape. The dipoles and screen are rusty. How much will that affect reception, how can or should I get the rust off, and should I "paint" it? If so, with what? Specific recommendations?



A good rule of thumb is that you lose 50% of performance every ten years your antenna is exposed to the elements. You can't get that back by removing the rust, though. I'd replace the 4228. They're not terribly expensive and if you get 15 years out of the next one, you'll be doing very well. (Average life span of an outdoor antenna is only 10 years.)


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey gang,
> 
> 
> I have an old ChannelMaster single screen (not double put together like they do today) 4228 UHF antenna that's been on a roof for 15 years. It's rusty, but the
> 
> balun is in very good shape. The dipoles and screen are rusty. How much will that affect reception, how can or should I get the rust off, and should I "paint" it?
> 
> If so, with what? Specific recommendations?



Get a new antenna and paint it with rustoleum if you want to.


----------



## kflorek




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Both of my rotor failures (I had a CM that failed as well) exhibited themselves as "freezing up" or refusing to move from one point.
> 
> 
> I had a monster antenna array for a day or two with the Channel Master rotor. No more than that. Other than that, the largest "array" I had was a Winegard HD8200P. The biggest thing on the "Made in China" rotor was a Winegard HD7084P. Right now, I'm using just an AntennasDirect 91XG. So I think you're remembering incorrectly.



This is what I thought I remembered from your web page ( http://www.geocities.com/Figbert/ant...irect91xg.html )

"I also tried a vertical stack of Channel Master 3021s (4248's with a split-boom for shipping) but due to rotor issues and no real improvement in reception, I pulled it back down."


You didn't mention any rotor failure other than that, and no rotor name, so I don't think I recalled incorrectly. So it was the CM rotor that failed in two days. That's a pretty good warning not to stint on the rotor if you are going with an array or an ultra antenna.


Maybe it is worth elaborating on the problem. It is not so much that the rotor is likely to break off or anything like that. There is a shaft that goes through a couple of bearings. Long before the shaft might break, it will bend. That will make the shaft bind in the bearings, making it stick or harder to turn. A long top mast increases the leverage on the shaft. Putting a big wind load on the mast increases the force applied to the shaft. Recall that they used to move huge ships using just the normal wind. All you need is enough sail. Once you've bent the shaft beyond the elastic point, beyond where it will return to its normal shape, you get a permanent bend. You can take the leverage off the rotor shaft by using a thrust bearing, but they are kind of expensive.


That's not the only problem. They use a motor in rotors that is geared down. The motor spins fast and turns a small grear against a large gear that may take 90 seconds to make one turn. That gives the motor tremendous mechanical advantage. You can use a wimpy motor to turn a large load. As far as I can tell there is no brake in normal home rotors. If you consider the system working backwards, where the big grear tries to turn the little, it takes a very large force. It is simply the magnified resistance of the big gear trying to turn a small frictional resistance in the motor which keeps the antenna from rotating in the wind. For really large antenna loads, and the longer antennas are worse, you can break the gears, or an least a tooth or two. When the grear gets to the spot where the teeth are gone, it won't turn past that point, unless possibly there is enough momentum in the antennas rotation to carry it through. If it doesn't make it through that spot, a little shift in the wind can move it enough for it to grab.


Cheap shafts and bearings are not well machined, or critically straight either. They depend on "wearing in" to complete the fit, or alternatively are sloppy to begin with.


As for items being made in the same factory, it is very often the case that the same basic item can be ordered to different specs from the same factory. If you are willing to pay for the better machining, qualty bearings, or hardening, you can get it. In the earlier days of Taiwan, importers and rebranders would do their own final inspection because Taiwan was so apt to cut corners. The first run would be just fine. Then they'd send crap; the same item made badly. Today Taiwan and China are pretty reliable. But you can always order things with low specs if you like.


Even when items have had problems, manufacturers often develop a fix as the years pass. Otherwise they can't sell the product, and their investment is down the tubes. If an importer has an item with too many warranty returns, driving down the profit, they know it all too well, and use their buying power to force manufacturers to a fix. This is one reason I was very unhappy with the Magnavox rotor that had a 1998 date label. I figure it was from a factory run that was dumped on the cheap because it was unsaleable. It WAS in unused condition. The Zenith antenna motor looks the same but the controller has a 2005 date. It is not very believable to me that Magnavox is still getting 1998 rotors from the factory, while Zenith is on 2005!


Probably your installer put in a garbage rotor. That's the way installers normally do things. They charge for first quality, and deliver trash, when they can at all make it pass. I have hardly had an experience with installers, where I was able to crosscheck, where that was not the case. It is to the point where I hate to check. I know I'll find something that should be fixed or replaced.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kflorek* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You can take the leverage off the rotor shaft by using a thrust bearing, but they are kind of expensive.
> 
> 
> .




Not that expensive. A little hard to find maybe. Many installations don't lend themselves to guying, though, or people just don't want to deal with it. Illustration of typical installation with guyed thrust bearing: http://www.astrosurf.org/lombry/Radi...or-bearing.gif 

The CM 9523 alignment bearing in use: http://www.coyotecreekranch.com/DTV/...V/P0001449.JPG 

There is a design which attaches to the mast above the rotator and doesn't require guying. I picked one up around a year ago. It's tricky to get it to line up properly with the rotator, though, and I abandoned it after several frustrations with my rotor hanging up. The most sturdy way to do it is to attach it to a plate at the top of a tower with the rotator installed inside the tower.


If you want a significantly more robust rotor than the 9521 you'll need to go with a ham rotor. I've not seen one that is remote controlled, though. PC-controlled, yes, but none remote controlled that I'm aware of. See http://www.eham.net/reviews/products/24


----------



## kflorek




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey gang,
> 
> 
> I have an old ChannelMaster single screen (not double put together like they do today) 4228 UHF antenna that's been on a roof for 15 years. It's rusty, but the
> 
> balun is in very good shape. The dipoles and screen are rusty. How much will that affect reception, how can or should I get the rust off, and should I "paint" it?
> 
> If so, with what? Specific recommendations?



Here is my take. The rust that you can get at is probably doing very little harm. What will be a problem, and one that is hard to do much about, is at the connections, the parts riveted together or screwed together.


Here's the reasoning: Electromagnetic waves have these properties: They pass through nonconductive substances as if they were not there. Electrically conductive materials re-broadcast them (or reflect), but this happens by means of a created current flowing in the surface of the conductor. It is the flowing current that antennas make use of. Both of these phenomena are nearly lossless for receiving antennas, unless the conducting material is intermediately resistive; good but great. To the extent that rust conducts rather poorly, or not at all, there is not much current, and therefore not much loss. The underlying metal will be primarily where the current flows. So unless you are in a low signal area, I would not get worked up about the surface rust.


One problem with the reasoning is that dampness will create ions in the rust and become fairly conductive. Painting should stop that.


The serious problem is where the parts are connected together. The original contact was created by pressure, which also seals off the area and protects it. But corrosion gradually creeps in. Without disassembling and cleaning, there are liable to be bad connections. You can't expect the antenna to work as designed without its parts being connected.


OTOH, any chunk of metal can be an antenna. You never know. My UHF only Winegard PR9032 brings in just about a perfect picture on analog channel 2, 4, 7 and 9 where its gain should be nil. (I am in a good signal area, at least for VHF, so negative gain over a half wave dipole may still be a pretty decent level. )


The kind of primer I like for rusty metal are ones that claim to dissolve it or reform it into something ready for painting, such as often found in automobile parts stores. The reddish primer that is for use on "heavy rust" has the problem that it doesn't stick so well to the areas that are not rusted. Galvanized steel in particular does not hold that primer or paint very well. The rust reformers convert iron oxide to iron phosphate (which is then dissolved) and zinc oxide to zinc phosphate, which does hold paint well.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kflorek* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> "I also tried a vertical stack of Channel Master 3021s (4248's with a split-boom for shipping) but due to rotor issues and no real improvement in reception, I pulled it back down."
> 
> 
> You didn't mention any rotor failure other than that, and no rotor name, so I don't think I recalled incorrectly. So it was the CM rotor that failed in two days. That's a pretty good warning not to stint on the rotor if you are going with an array or an ultra antenna.



The rotor didn't fail in two days. In fact, the rotor issue had more to do with the guy ring that was "slipping" during rotation that made me nervous. Maybe it damaged the rotor, the few times I spun it around. I don't know. It worked flawlessly with the Winegard HD-7084P for another 6 months, and then worked flawlessly with the Winegard HD-8200P for about 9 months after that. Then it stuck. So if, 15 months after I did my little two-day experiment, the rotor failed because of some weakening, then I suppose I got what I deserved.


The "made in China" rotor that failed before that one lasted less than two years, and I never put anything larger than the 7084P on it.


----------



## sstterry

Hi guys I need help!

I hope this is the right place to ask. I am about 53 miles from my knoxville TN stations (according to antennaweb). I'm pretty high here where I live so I don't think line of sight is a big problem.

I just placed a CM 3020 in my attic. I am getting between 45 to 60 on my signal meter on my D* reciever. Will a preamp help me or am I just out of luck. I get the locals on satallite but I want the HD reception. Anything you would suggest?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sstterry* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just placed a CM 3020 in my attic. I am getting between 45 to 60 on my signal meter on my D* reciever. Will a preamp help me or am I just out of luck. I get the locals on satallite but I want the HD reception. Anything you would suggest?



Well, the first thing to do is the famous "analog test." What do analogs that come from the same locations (and are on the same band, comparing UHF-to-UHF, hi-VHF to hi-VHF and lo-VHF to lo-VHF) look like? What does WTNZ-43 look like, for instance? Are there ghosts? Is there a lot of "snow" in the picture? Neither? Both? If you've got ghosting, skip the preamplifier - it will only make things worse. If you've just got snow though, a preamplifier (Channel Master 7777) would be a good next step.


The 3020 is a monster, but it isn't the world's best UHF antenna. You might want to try a 4228 for the UHF stuff, as the 4228 is a top performer inside attics. Then you can combine it with the 3020 (since I see you have at least one VHF digital station) with a Channel Master #0549 or, if you get a Channel Master 7777 preamp, use the separate VHF and UHF inputs on it.


If neither of these things work, then you're just going to have to bite the bullet and put your antenna outside, where God intended it to be.


----------



## andbye

Anyone have experience/info on WN-PR 8800 UHF 8 bay which Home Tech online says is "electrically virtually identical to Channel Master 4228" that is easier to mount in attics


----------



## sstterry

Thanks Sregener


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *andbye* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyone have experience/info on WN-PR 8800 UHF 8 bay which Home Tech online says is "electrically virtually identical to Channel Master 4228" that is easier to mount in attics



Here is the HomeTech ad:
http://www.hometech.com/video/antennas.html#WN-PR8800 


Obviously, it's the Windgard PR8800 (the part number is a dead give away):
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/pr-8800.pdf 


So is it "electrically virtually identical" to the CM4228?

No way, they are entirely different antennas:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...oom=zoom#xview 


The CM4228 has much better hi-band VHF and significantly better UHF performance:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 

Be sure to look at NET GAIN vs Raw Gain.

Also note Antenna Direct DB-8 does not suffer from high freq loss.


FYI: Note that these NEC simulation runs were recently updated on 10/28/05.

The Winegard SS-3000 SharpShooter (aka Terk HDTVlp) is a new addition.

The CM4228 model has been changed, changing the results to reveal

some significant nulls on CH8 and between CH11/12 and almost no response for CH3-6.


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

I didn't order the 91XG yet... What does anyone (sregener?







) think about the *43*XG? According to Antennas Direct, its gain is just 1dB less than the 91XG, but unfortunately there's no graph of its response throughout the UHF range on HDTV Primer . However, since the designs are similar, I would think (hope) there'd be only about that much difference at any channel...?


Yesterday I found a post by holl_ands about measuring balun loss -- and I see the Radio Shack ones are bad!!







So, besides the antenna (91/43XG) itself having more gain, the balun will probably be 3dB better. (Maybe you were including that difference, sregener, when you said 6dB better than R-S?)


And if I get a CM 7777 or 7778 to combine the R-S VHF, its boosting would overcome the maybe 3-4dB loss from ~40' RG-6 + VSWR before my R-S amp (a pre-amp hasn't been used w/ R-S ant.).


So, considering that channels had been strong enough to come in using R-S antenna (again, don't know how much weaker the signals became though














), and taking into account the 6dB+ could be gained with pre-amp and better balun, the 1dB difference between the 43XG and 91XG doesn't seem like much. And I can apply the $20 difference to the pre-amp.







BTW, if I had the 91XG and didn't want the VHF combined, I wouldn't even use the pre-amp if I didn't need to, so its additional 1dB would be lost anyway.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sstterry* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi guys I need help!
> 
> I hope this is the right place to ask. I am about 53 miles from my knoxville TN stations (according to antennaweb). I'm pretty high here where I live so I don't think line of sight is a big problem.
> 
> I just placed a CM 3020 in my attic. I am getting between 45 to 60 on my signal meter on my D* reciever. Will a preamp help me or am I just out of luck. I get the locals on satallite but I want the HD reception. Anything you would suggest?



Where are you exactly?


I'm 65 miles from Knoxville. In all likelihood you need to quit wasting time/effort in the attic and get your antenna outside. The 3020 is decent but any combo vhf/uhf can be bettered by going with separates. For Knoxville, you'll need uhf and high band vhf. If you arent' planning on a rotator, a CM 4228 with the CM 7777 preamp would be a good start and you could add a separate high band vhf antenna later if necessary. If you want to use a rotator, I'd go with a yagi/corner reflector for uhf on the rotator and the high band antenna fixed below the rotator.


I have two Televes DAT 75's (uhf) as well as two Funke psp 1922's (high band vhf) in case you are interested.


----------



## rwantennasat

Hi,

This is Rich. Im in W.N.Y. Ive been in Tv antennas and satellite since 1982 and iD be willing to help any of you out there with your reception Problems.

I am a distributor for Ch MAster/Andrews Winegard-Antennacraft-Delhi-Blonder tongue. I ave extensive experience in building cable headends as well as simple home installs. We are currently doing alot of HD antenna designs around the country. If you have any questions you can e-mail me direct or ask on the forum

My e-mail is:[email protected]

Phone # is 716-434-9216


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I didn't order the 91XG yet... What does anyone (sregener?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) think about the *43*XG?....And I can apply the $20 difference to the pre-amp.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, if I had the 91XG and didn't want the VHF combined, I wouldn't even use the pre-amp if I didn't need to, so its additional 1dB would be lost anyway.



The 43XG would be a fine antenna if that is all you need. Personally, I live beyond the fringe of most of the stations I want (70-73 miles), so alway look at the highest antenna gain I can get. Antenna gain is always better than a pre-amp, because it is clean gain. A pre-amp will always add at least a little noise. And noise is not good for digital signals. That said, if you can't get enough antenna gain to make it work, a low noise pre-amp can be the answer (I use one).


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I didn't order the 91XG yet... What does anyone (sregener?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) think about the *43*XG? According to Antennas Direct, its gain is just 1dB less than the 91XG...



I'd bet that the 43XG is identical or nearly so for channels below 35 or so. Above channel 35, the 91XG is going to start making a difference, and the higher you go, the more difference it's going to make. I haven't personally tried the 43XG, but I haven't heard anything bad about them, either.


The most important factors for any antenna are design and location. The 43XG doesn't seem much inferior to the 91XG, but I'd bet the difference is more than 1dB on channels 40+.


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

Thanks for both of your replies.







sregener, Antennas Direct gain figures are the peak gain, which on the 91XG, like most I guess, occurs at the highest channels, so I figure THAT is where the difference should be 1dB.







I guess I'll go for the 43 though...


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for both of your replies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sregener, Antennas Direct gain figures are the peak gain, which on the 91XG, like most I guess, occurs at the highest channels, so I figure THAT is where the difference should be 1dB.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I'll go for the 43 though...



Well, based on this page ( http://www.starkelectronic.com/del937.htm ) I'm guessing that 2-3dB is more likely, since the power zoom adds 8 elements (32 equivalent for the 91XG) and adds 2dB to the Delhi's gain figure.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for both of your replies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sregener, Antennas Direct gain figures are the peak gain, which on the 91XG, like most I guess, occurs at the highest channels, so I figure THAT is where the difference should be 1dB.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I'll go for the 43 though...



I think that's probably pretty close.Here's a link to CPC's website showing comparison specs on the 43 and 91 element Funke Quad-X antennas that are identical to the XG91-43,except for the driven element.In some cases,1db can make all the difference.I'd go for the 91 element model.

http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSea...cpc/253268.xml 


Greg B


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think that's probably pretty close.Here's a link to CPC's website showing comparison specs on a 43 and 91 element Funke Quad-X antennas that are identical,except for the driven element.In some cases,1db can make all the difference.I'd go for the 91 element model.



Interesting the F/B ratio is 1dB higher for the 91 (and the higher, the better.) And the big difference is on the low end (8.9 to 10.2) rather than the high end (15.7-16.7.)


I agree with you, though, MAX HD. The best route is always to get the best antenna in "borderline" situations and then, when the reception isn't the best, you're never kicking yourself wondering if just a little more antenna would have made the difference. I know I went through a couple of years of angst because of reception, but once I bought the best, I never thought, "Gee, maybe I should have tried antenna such-and-such instead."


----------



## rwantennasat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, based on this page ( http://www.starkelectronic.com/del937.htm ) I'm guessing that 2-3dB is more likely, since the power zoom adds 8 elements (32 equivalent for the 91XG) and adds 2dB to the Delhi's gain figure.



I've installed alot of Delhi antennas up here and have used the powr zoom but i havent noticed much of an increase in gain. I do usually notice a slight improvement in directivity thou. Another good example is My winegard 9032 yagi. I extended it and now its a super yagi. !50" from apx 100 " .With that i seen an increase of apx 2 db fro ch 40 -50 but really ended up with much more directivity.

There are few antennas out there in my mind that will ever compare to a uhf parabolic. I own 3 of them. one is on a tower at 80' with a winegard preamp ,I can watch erie pa from north of buffalo regularly as well as Toronto. Im currently trying to buy the build specs from Ch Master on the 4250 6' and 4251 7 ' model. They will not build them anymore even if i ask for 200 to be built. I have a guy who does aluminum fabrication and he will build if i supply specs. I have a standing order from a Canadian dealer for 100 of them.

B.T.W. Ive been in antenna/sat business since 1982

My 2 cents worth


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rwantennasat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There are few antennas out there in my mind that will ever compare to a uhf parabolic.



Your results would be more impressive if they were strictly over land. Being near such a large body of water (even if the shortest path doesn't necessarily go over it) queers the deal somewhat.


The knock on the UHF parabolics is their front-to-back ratio. Since the active element is "pointed" backwards, the antennas tend to have a lot of bleed through from signals in the opposite direction from the intended signals. I suppose a better reflector would be a major plus. Still, that adds wind load to an already heavy antenna.


Technically, there's no difference between a satellite dish and a parabolic, so you could buy a mesh dish (or a solid one if you have the guts) and replace the LNB with a UHF bowtie, put some type of screen behind it to block the signal coming in, and you'd have your parabolic antenna. There are 20' mesh dishes. Somehow, though, I think the law of diminishing returns would get you long before you'd see any benefit from an antenna that size.


----------



## ashincore

Hi all I live on the third floor of a 12 floor condo in the Philadelphia area. I have been trying like mad to find a good indoor antenna. Please Help, I've already try a few rabbit ears without any success.


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

Thanks for that link with the specs MAX HD.










So does anybody have the slightest idea how much the signal level reaching here could have changed, dB-wise, between seasons or atmospheric conditions? I couldn't find anything with Google... Could they have gotten more than, say, 6dB (4x) weaker? I don't know what certain dB-differences look like on analogs, but my UHFs are just barely worse, I'd say -- only a bit more snow.


Well, I guess if my receiver displayed S/N, I'd have a great idea of the dB-difference.














Any of you guys with dB readouts compare how much change there is under different conditions?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So does anybody have the slightest idea how much the signal level reaching here could have changed, dB-wise, between seasons or atmospheric conditions?



I've heard that tropospheric enhancement can make a difference of 22-45dB. A few dB can make a huge difference with digital reception. Analogs seem to be more subtle in their changes.


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

Holy.










Well, yesterday after seeing the extra replies, I was back to thinking I should go ahead and get the 91. Now I guess I'll have to see if even IT is enough.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, yesterday after seeing the extra replies, I was back to thinking I should go ahead and get the 91. Now I guess I'll have to see if even IT is enough.



That was kind of my point all along. If you get the best, then you know you've done everything that can be done. If you don't, you'll always wonder as your favorite show turns into a pixelated - or black - mess.


Having seen how good UHF reception looks with tropospheric enhancement, I think 45dB might even be a little low. I've had analog UHF look *BETTER* than some digital (480i) signals. And that's on stations that are so snowy normally that I can't read big text on the screen.


Granted, your differences may not be so great. But don't assume that you're only 3dB away...


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for that link with the specs MAX HD.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So does anybody have the slightest idea how much the signal level reaching here could have changed, dB-wise, between seasons or atmospheric conditions? I couldn't find anything with Google... Could they have gotten more than, say, 6dB (4x) weaker? I don't know what certain dB-differences look like on analogs, but my UHFs are just barely worse, I'd say -- only a bit more snow.
> 
> 
> Well, I guess if my receiver displayed S/N, I'd have a great idea of the dB-difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any of you guys with dB readouts compare how much change there is under different conditions?



I'd say what you're seeing is about right for the seasonal change.The lower power analog UHF's that I receive here are around 5-10db lower now than they were in warmer weather.We call it "winter deadband cx".


Another factor that has more influence on solid reception than any particular antenna is the location of the antenna itself.When you're in the fringe,with possible terrain issues,there can be large differences in signal strength.If it's feasible,mount a UHF antenna on a broom handle or whatever,and do a site survey before making a permanent mounting location.


Greg B


----------



## davede

I am trying to get OTA of HDTV.


I have a samsung TV with a built-in tuner. A ~120inch antenna with a channelmaster 7777 pre-amp. The FM trap is switched on.


I am having various results receiving HD in one direction. some stations are good. A couple are ok if I tweak the antenna direction and some are missing altogether or pixalated 70% or more of the time.


I think the problem is multipath or FM interference because I get good reception on a number of channels in the other direction, even though they are further away.


Some large buildings are directly in the direction of the problem channels, and one has the broadcast antenna for a college FM radio station. The problem channels may be coming in with some strong signals anywhere from 2-9 on the strength meter. Often times the meter is fluctuating, 6 or 8 bars for 5 seconds then 0, or the last bar or 2 are off-on. Some times I have no picture and no signal indication, then move the antenna a few degrees and have a 9! The good channels are in the same direction, and I think on the same broadcast antenna.


Does anyone know how I could diagnose this as multipath or FM, and if so, what should I do? Could it be anything else?


Any help is appreciated.


Dave


----------



## PGDave




> Quote:
> Technically, there's no difference between a satellite dish and a parabolic, so you could buy a mesh dish (or a solid one if you have the guts) and replace the LNB with a UHF bowtie, put some type of screen behind it to block the signal coming in, and you'd have your parabolic antenna. There are 20' mesh dishes. Somehow, though, I think the law of diminishing returns would get you long before you'd see any benefit from an antenna that size.



Your idea intrigues me. I have a 10.5 foot parabolic mesh dish that I was thinking of taking down since I no longer view C-band much. But the idea of trying a small UHF antenna instead of a feedhorn sounds like a good idea. What antenna do you think would work best? A bowtie, a SquareShooter, an XG 91 in reverse (shortened to proper focal length with all but the last 6 directors removed)?


----------



## Neil L

PGDave,

Those old CM parabolics had what looked like a double bowtie antenna (including rear screen) facing the dish. Parabolic have considerably more gain that other antennas, that is why they are used for satellite reception. They can pick up a relatively weak signal from a very long distance (how far away are the satellites?), when you have a line-of-sight path. It would be nearly impossible to mount a large dish 50ft up on a tower. That is why we all use light weight antennas out here in the fringe. Here, getting your antenna up above obstructions, like trees, hills and buildings, is more important that antenna gain. If the signal never reaches the antenna, it won't matter if you have a 30dB gain antenna, you still won't get a picture.


----------



## Rack




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PGDave* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Your idea intrigues me. I have a 10.5 foot parabolic mesh dish that I was thinking of taking down since I no longer view C-band much. But the idea of trying a small UHF antenna instead of a feedhorn sounds like a good idea. What antenna do you think would work best? A bowtie, a SquareShooter, an XG 91 in reverse (shortened to proper focal length with all but the last 6 directors removed)?


 http://www.qsl.net/n1bwt/chap4.pdf 

Be sure to check out the pages with the illumination and spillover loss diagrams.


----------



## bry999

This may have been asked/answered before but I didn't see it in a search.


Can I run one continuous 6 gauge bare copper ground wire from the grounding block, then to the mast, then to a secondary 8' ground rod and finally to the primary electrical ground rod about 100' feet away (bonding the two rods)?


If this is OK should the grounding wire be connected to the mast higher up first and then to the cable grounding block?


More Info on Setup:


I have a 30' channel master mast attached to the side of the house. A DB4 antenna is attached about 8' above the roof line. The cable enters the side of the house under the eaves (about 20' above the ground) so that is where the grounding block and 1st attachment to the mast is at. The ground wire is attached to the mast at two other spots lower down before connecting to the ground rod.


From the ground rod the grounding wire (now acting as a bonding wire) would snake around the outside of the house, attached to the concrete block foundation, to the primary grounding rod.


Thanks for any help,


Bryant


----------



## sr

Ken, I finally realized why every time it rained that I would get pixilation and drop outs when viewing OTA HD. The antenna was swaying in the wind! I have a rotor which elevates the antenna making it more vulnerable to sway. I had changed the antenna, cable and amplifier...never giving any consideration for the pole that supports the antenna and rotor! I realized that it was not the rain, but the wind that was causing the problem. I presume antenna movement is more critical with ATS vs NTSC reception because of the digital character of the data.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bry999* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can I run one continuous 6 gauge bare copper ground wire from the grounding block, then to the mast, then to a secondary 8' ground rod and finally to the primary electrical ground rod about 100' feet away (bonding the two rods)?



I think that you've got the idea. Tie everything together.


> Quote:
> If this is OK should the grounding wire be connected to the mast higher up first and then to the cable grounding block?



As long as everything is tied together, I don't think that it matters.


I have 2 grounding rods. 1 at a short tower, and another a short distance away. The 1 at the tower is connected to the tower, and also connected to the other grounding rod. From the grounding block at the house entry, a #4 cable is run(under ground) to the 2nd rod. From the 2nd rod, a 6 gauge wire is run around the house to connect with the house ground. Again, everything tied together.

....jc


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ken, I finally realized why every time it rained that I would get pixilation and drop outs when viewing OTA HD. The antenna was swaying in the wind! I have a rotor which elevates the antenna making it more vulnerable to sway. I had changed the antenna, cable and amplifier...never giving any consideration for the pole that supports the antenna and rotor! I realized that it was not the rain, but the wind that was causing the problem. I presume antenna movement is more critical with ATS vs NTSC reception because of the digital character of the data.



Bad guess. It was the rain.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bry999* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can I run one continuous 6 gauge bare copper ground wire from the grounding block, then to the mast, then to a secondary 8' ground rod and finally to the primary electrical ground rod about 100' feet away (bonding the two rods)?
> 
> 
> If this is OK should the grounding wire be connected to the mast higher up first and then to the cable grounding block?



I'd do it, but if we are splitting hairs here, the coax ground wire has to be insulated. (I didn't write the code, and personally don't care whether it is or not.)


The only benefit of having the coax entry point ground wire going down instead of up is that it is SLIGHTLY more efficient at shunting off lightning, but believe me, if you get hit directly by lightning, that slight theoretical advangage isn't likely to make any perceptible difference.


----------



## sr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Bad guess. It was the rain.



I have not changed the pole supporting the antenna, but I could not help notice the antenna swaying in a windy rain and watching the signal strength meter on the LG 3410 receiver move abruptly into the "poor" range.


To prove my theory, I am going to experiment and place a UHF antenna in the attic. This a location that will be unaffected by wind. I will then compare the signal strength between inside and outside antennas to verify if both antennas experience the sudden drop in signal strength during a rain storm.


AntAltMike, what makes you believe otherwise?


----------



## kappy44

Living in an area where half the DTV stations broadcast on VHF, I currently receive the vhf broadcasts on an old Radio Shack ultra-fringe UHF yagi; however the ABC affiliate will soon begin broadcasting on CH. 8, the NBC affiliate is on CH. 13....I'm moving about 1 mile away and would like to get feedback from users of a Winegard 7082P vs. an Antennas Direct V21...I will 82 channel pre-amp into my headend as I have been with the old UHF fringe antenna.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I too had a very difficult time "tuning" my antenna system. I live in a suburb of New York City and every time it rained, I would receive pixelation. The solution was to replace the entire system: Channel Master high gain antenna and outdoor amplifier, passive splitters and variable attentuators. The LG tuner is the only tuner that required the additional variable attenuator to bring the signal level to the optimum setting.



Sr's Forest Hills zip code indicates that he may be about 8 miles from the towers. The first thing he should do is get rid of his preamp. The signals are irreparably damaged by that preamp, and this cannot be undone my downstream attenuation.


If that doesn't solve his reception problems, but if he believes he has a clear, line-of-site path to the towers, then he needs to experiment with different mast locations to stumble across the one with the least multipath signal strength. There is no easy way to do this, and for many people, it is actually easier to try different, temporary mast locations in an attic than on a rooftop.


----------



## storminorm

I live about 60 miles from ATL towers and have the4228/7777 amp combo, I get all digitals clearly except ABC 2.1, it fades in and out and I've moved the antenna around a bit, would raising it help or even move it to another location on the roof help OR what about a DB8, would it out perform a 4228??


----------



## sr

Thanks for finding my earlier posting. Prior to installing the new antenna system with an outdoor amplifier, I had a completely passive system and I would experience the same problem I am having now. Originally, I believed I had a poor connection that was allowing water to enter a connector, but I changed all the connectors, and that did not solve the problem. That is when I changed the entire system, except for the mounting pole.


So you could be correct. It could be a multipath issue. But before I relocate the antenna, I want to test the signal strength with an indoor antenna. Now that the leaves are off the trees, multipath should be less of an issue. Antenna sway is still a form of distortion, and I will replace the mast with a more rigid pole if the temporary attic antenna signal strength remains steady during the next windy rain.


----------



## AntAltMike

Sr doesn't have any means to measure signal strength. The so-called signal strength indicator incorporated into his tuner is actually displaying a contrived indication of signal quality.


Every Channel Master preamp boosts signal power by over a hundred fold, but the difference in "signal strength" indicated by the tuner's internal signal strength meter does not in any way correlate with that fact.


The multipath signal component that likely is interfering with sr's reception is off a solid object. If there is more vegetation on the intended signal path than the unintended one, then seasonal exfoliation will tend to result in a slight improvement in signal quality. If there is more vegetation on the unintended path, then it will tend to result in reduced quality.


A directional antenna located eight miles from the towers will develop over a thousand times the signal power needed for the receiver to operate reliably. More likely, it will develop ten thousand times as much, and when it is amplfied, it will be over a hundred thousand times as strong as the receiver needs.


If a directional antenna twists 30 degrees offline in the wind (doubtful), it would lose no more than 10dB (one tenth) and the unamplified signal would still be over a hundred times as powerful as needed.


I've installed a few thousand antennas. If I have to take one down for some reason and then put it back up, I generally don't care if it is five degrees off the bearing on which I previously had it targeted, because in most cases, such a deviation won't make any difference, and in cases where it does, I have an unstable multipath situation that I will have to address but which won't get reliably remedied by cambering the antenna a degree or two.


Check post #2414 in this thread for a further discussion of multipath and the means to remedy it.


Sr should look at analog UHF transmissions from the same tower to see if there is a visible ghost image to the right of the primary analog image. If there is just one ghost, then he might improve the quality of his digital signals from the same tower by positioning the antenna in such a way as to minimize that ghost image's intensity, but this method is not one hundred percent reliable.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've installed a few thousand antennas. If I have to take one down for some reason and then put it back up, I generally don't care if it is five degrees off the bearing on which I previously had it targeted, because in most cases, such a deviation won't make any difference, and in cases where it does, I have an unstable multipath situation that I will have to address but which won't get reliably remedied by cambering the antenna a degree or two.



All bets are off, however, when you're 75 miles away and aiming over the horizon. In that case, 5 degrees is more than enough to make-or-break you with a highly directional antenna.


But at 30 miles, I have to get 60 degrees off-axis to lose digital locks with the same direction antenna.


----------



## DMH1

Hi. Newbie to the HD world with a couple of Qs:


I installed the following this weekend: Mitsu 52628 1080P DLP, DISH 942, Dish HD Pak and a Terk 5 Bowtie which I set-up on top of the TV to trial antenna reception. I am 30 miles from the towers according to anntennaweb and so far so good, am picking up all of the local digital channels including 4-1, 5-1, 8-1, 11-1 and several others. Watched Desperate Housewives last night while recording the Jets game on ESPNHD - incredible picture!


1. My signal strength is 67-73 as-is. Can I move the Terk 5 to the attic and expect any signal improvement? I am on a south facing hill North of Dallas (where towers are located) with one tree in the front yard so I am speculating that another 20 ft or so in elevation will help a bit.

2. Is there another indoor UHF/VHF antenna to try in the attic? Winegard Sharpshooter? Radio Shack?

3. Or consider an amp?

4. Also, may be OT, but have seen a few threads about Dallasites qualifying for CBS-HD from Dish. Does anyone have the scoop on how to do this? Is there a cost for this feed? Or, just the cost of adding a 2d Dish for the 148 satellite? And, if I need a 2d Dish should I try for the Dish 1000 upgrade? Any cost info?


Thanks in advance!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DMH1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1. My signal strength is 67-73 as-is. Can I move the Terk 5 to the attic and expect any signal improvement?



Maybe, but if you're not seeing any artifacting and the screen never blacks out, there's no point in doing anything. With digital, once you achieve a stable lock, the picture will never look any better, no matter how much better the signal strength gets,


----------



## colofan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> All bets are off, however, when you're 75 miles away and aiming over the horizon. In that case, 5 degrees is more than enough to make-or-break you with a highly directional antenna.
> 
> 
> But at 30 miles, I have to get 60 degrees off-axis to lose digital locks with the same direction antenna.



Also don't assume that full power DTV is available either. I am picking up a signal 45 miles away in UHF and the transmitter erp power is 12Kw.


----------



## jlentz

Hi,


I have two separate attic spaces that I can use an antenna in. I'm getting a Channel Master 4228. I can fit it in one space easily, but the antenna would be pointing toward the gable, which is brick. The other attic space is a little higher and the antenna would be pointing toward a standard shingle roof, but the attic access would have to be modified to allow me to fit the 4228 up and into the attic. Once in the attic, space is not a problem. Will the brick front on my gable totally clobber the reception? It does have a small gable vent, but that is it. I know from reading the forum that higher is generally better, but it would be easier to try the antenna in the first attic, if the brick doesn't mess things up too much.


Any advice would be appreciated.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jlentz* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have two separate attic spaces that I can use an antenna in. I'm getting a Channel Master 4228. I can fit it in one space easily...



The solution seems obvious to me. Try it in the space where it fits easily and see how it works. If it works good enough, great, you're done. If not, then it's no big deal to take it out of the easy to reach attic.


Trying to predict what will happen in an attic with reception is a little like trying to predict the weather; there's an 80% chance that something you hadn't expected will impact your results.


----------



## jlentz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The solution seems obvious to me. Try it in the space where it fits easily and see how it works. If it works good enough, great, you're done. If not, then it's no big deal to take it out of the easy to reach attic.



I kind of figured that, but I wanted to make sure that a brick front didn't automatically mean no chance at all. I'll see how it goes tomorrow.


Thanks.


----------



## Oldfart

How small is your attic access? The CM 4228 is only 36" high and easily went thru my access on the diagonal. Furthermore, each mesh segment has gold colored clips that hold it to the frame. The 4 clips have little 'tabs' that are bent out to capture the mesh. You can carefully bend the tabs away from the mesh and remove it and then reattach once in the attic.


----------



## acrispin77

I'm still analog, have a Radio Shack VU-190XR VHF/UHF combo antenna, and am having trouble pulling in channel 2 or 3. I'm in Connecticut, about 55 miles from NYC(ch2) and 55 mile from Hartford(ch 3) with a rotor on the roof.


At times I can get either channel by turning the antenna to the correct direction. Other times I can't get either one. Most of my other channels are UHF which come in fine.


When I look at the net gain for the VU-190XR (listed as a VHF antenna), it shows a gain of around *4.5* for channel 3, while the ChannelMaster 4248/3023 (listed as a UHF antenna) shows a net gain of around *11*.


How can that be? A UHF antenna has more gain on channel 3 than a VHY antenna? Is it just that the CM is that much better? And does it make sense to try a CM4248/3023? It seems to have better gain across all channels. Am I reading the chart correctly or am I missing something?


----------



## holl_ands

Where did you see a CH3 gain spec for the CM 4248/3023?

I think you got your facts mixed up.


Channel Master and their distributors only provide UHF gain numbers for this antenna.

And www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html NEC simulation results for CM4248 were only for UHF gain, not VHF.


----------



## acrispin77

I looked at the net gain chart for UHF antennas and the plot for the CM4248 (line C on the chart). Although the chart has the channels in increments of 10, it starts at 0 and though most of the antennas have a steep climb from channel 2 to channel 20, the 4248 starts around 11 and then levels off up to channel 68. Then it drops off.


----------



## jlentz

I just got a HD tuner today and after it scanned for channels, I checked out the signal strength on several of them using the tuners meter. One is showing a strength that switches between 66% and 72%. It isn't showing any picture quality issues, but I was wondering if there is a general guideline for how low it can go before problems develop. I imagine it might fluctuate in the future due to weather or tree foliage. I'm currently using a Radio Shack (model 75 I think - 4ft long with multiple vanes) combo UHF-VHF antenna. I got a Channel Master 4228 antenna, thinking that my existing antenna wouldn't be sensitive enough to pull in the stations. Now I'm wondering if I should return the Channel Master or put it up to see if my strengths get higher. I'm not sure what kind of headroom 66% or 72% gives me. All I have to go by is the signal strength indicator. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Also, is the Channel Master 4228 more directional than the RS antenna? If so, then I might not get all the channels that the RS gets, since the broadcasting stations are separated by about 15 degrees.


Thanks.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *acrispin77* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I looked at the net gain chart for UHF antennas and the plot for the CM4248 (line C on the chart). Although the chart has the channels in increments of 10, it starts at 0 and though most of the antennas have a steep climb from channel 2 to channel 20, the 4248 starts around 11 and then levels off up to channel 68.



Check it again, it starts at 14. The 0 is on the y axis.


All UHF-only antennas have negative gain on lo-VHF.


----------



## Jim5506




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Check it again, it starts at 14. The 0 is on the y axis.
> 
> 
> All UHF-only antennas have negative gain on lo-VHF.



If you go to the bottom of the same page, there is a chart showing UHF antenna gain on VHF. The 4228 has surprising gain in upper VHF, but ALL UHF's are abysmal in the lower VHF range (worse than rabbit ears).


----------



## rwantennasat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PGDave* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Your idea intrigues me. I have a 10.5 foot parabolic mesh dish that I was thinking of taking down since I no longer view C-band much. But the idea of trying a small UHF antenna instead of a feedhorn sounds like a good idea. What antenna do you think would work best? A bowtie, a SquareShooter, an XG 91 in reverse (shortened to proper focal length with all but the last 6 directors removed)?



Ok Here is the pooh on using a c/ku sat dish for uhf. Yes it can be done. Yes I have done it with a 10 footer!!!! And what a signal. Ok You have to do some re designing of the dish. 1st you get rid of the big heavy mount on it, Then you remove all the current mesh because its too much of a wind catcher. Second you make bracket out of steel stock at the top and bottom of dish if its standing vertical. you want to connect them at the point where 2 of the 4 panels are joined. Then you attach 2 for top 2 for bottom u bolt assemblies. Now for the feed.

I tool another piece of flat steel and mounted in the center of the dish and put 2 more u bolts to hold a square stock tubing. This held my feed and sub reflector. I used a folded dipole design like the old delhi /antennacraft p-7 parabolic used.

For the mesh i got 1" chicken wire type mesh and replaced it on the dish. I put it on my tower at 20 ft and was amazed!!! I currently have 2 7' parabolics 1 at 85' 1at 25' The 10 ft unit blew both away and the beamwidth was super tight. F/B ratio was better as the reflecter surface area was smaller not letting uhf pass thru it to well. I had to take it down though because i want to try some new ideas. B.T.W. Its alot easier to do this with a 6 or 7 ft mesh dish due to weight. The best dishes to use weight wise are the perfect ten dishes. Usually grey in color.

I spoke in depth today on the phone to Channel Master about buying the build specs for the old parascope uhf antennas. They are in a mess there. They assured me they would find the specs and sell them to me. Im hoping to start re manufacturing a 6 or 7' parabolic based on the old Ch Master Ideas. The have no intention of ever building it again since the co. was sold. Its ashamed what has become of that Company. Ive been in the antenna business since 1982 and i have not seen any antenna that can compare to a prabolic in gain/beamwidth and f/b If someone wants to bring one here to do comparison's im game. Antennas direct is sending me 2 of they're most fringe models to test. If i like i will start selling and become a distributor?????

I have lined up a friend i the aluminum business to start turning out the parabolics once i get the plans. I have 1 on my tower but at 85 ft i really dont want to pull it down. So i am waiting for C.M. to come thru or to borrow one from somebody to copy the layout. B.T.W. by screening a parabolic it increases the f/b and gain. You can see tips of this at WTFDA.com Of which i am a member and have been now for well over 25 years. The guys in that club take tv dxing to a whole new level. As far as tropo enhancement hows this one for you. I live near Bufalo .N.Y. and have watched ch 34 kgmc from oklahoma city Ok. 1200 miles on uhf.







So that is what can be done with a great antenna in enhanced conditions.

TAke care all

Rich


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jim5506* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you go to the bottom of the same page, there is a chart showing UHF antenna gain on VHF. The 4228 has surprising gain in upper VHF, but ALL UHF's are abysmal in the lower VHF range (worse than rabbit ears).



But the 4228 has horrifically poor flatness across the channel on every VHF highband channel except 10 and 13. It varies by about 10dB within the channel on 7, 8, 11, and 12. With NTSC signals, this would result in uneven coloration. With 8VSB, it probably would result in a less reliable signal lock than one could get from the signal developed by a dipole and reflector crudely fashioned from scrap metal.


----------



## flabingo

My friend bought a new sony Bravia for his apartment in north Naples Florida. He lives on the 14th floor of a condo with a clear view of all the networks within 35 miles. The range is between 6 and 10 degrees. Will an indoor or outdoor HDTV directional antenna work for him? David


----------



## jlentz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Oldfart* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How small is your attic access? The CM 4228 is only 36" high and easily went thru my access on the diagonal. Furthermore, each mesh segment has gold colored clips that hold it to the frame. The 4 clips have little 'tabs' that are bent out to capture the mesh. You can carefully bend the tabs away from the mesh and remove it and then reattach once in the attic.



It's less than 36" on the diagonal. I was thinking about doing what you described. If a tab happens to break, can the mesh be attached in place using other means? (zip ties maybe?) The mesh is there to only reflect - right?


On a different topic, once I get it in the attic, if the 4228 can't pull in the 1 vhf station I need, could I use my combo UHF/VHF antenna and send it to the vhf input of a uhf/vhf combiner without messing up the UHF signals coming from the 4228?


Thanks for all the good help.


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

The Solid Signal order came yesterday, and they sent the Terrestrial Digital brand 91XG (indicated on box and instructions).







I realize they're the same exact antennas sold under different brands, but what is the point of having both on the Solid Signal site if they are just going to send whatever, ignoring what you ordered?? Antennas Direct is in St. Louis, so I thought I was "supporting" them... But I did notice that the phone number on the TD instructions is the same as at the AD site, so who knows.










Problem is, as far as I can tell, I didn't get the "thumb screw" to attach the balun box to the boom.







I'll have to tell them about that. I can use something else to hold it on for testing, but I should have the correct part. I wonder if the missing part and being the wrong brand would be enough reason for them to let me return it, without being out return shipping and restocking fee, and get the 43XG instead, IF after testing I find that the 91XG is working so well that its extra 1-2 dB isn't necessary.


----------



## DaveinTucson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There is no such thing as a maximum distance. Go out into space and you can get UHF reception for billions of miles. Back here on terra firma, a good "average" distance is 60 miles over average terrain. Mountain ranges between you and the broadcasting towers, however, is not average terrain. All bets are off.
> 
> 
> Antennaweb is giving you "deep fringe" results for VHF signals. VHF bends more readily around objects like mountains, so it reaches further than UHF, on average. If the Tuscon stations were broadcasting their digital signals on VHF frequencies, you might have a shot. With UHF, I'd be extremely pessimistic.
> 
> 
> However, there is such a thing as knife-edge diffraction, which may save you if you're some distance (say more than 10 miles) away from the mountains. You might get something that way, but there are no guarantees. The only way to know is to try an antenna and find out. However, don't bother going as high as possible once you've cleared local roof and tree clutter by about 10 feet. Beyond that, the deciding factor is going to be those mountains, and I'm guessing you're not going to put something up tall enough to clear those.



Thanks for the reply to my poorly worded question. I remember (probably from sci-fi movies) that TV/Radio signals go billions of miles out into space










After more research, I'm going to give it a shot. The Tucson TV transmsit from atop Mt. Bigelow, at 8500'. Mountains immediately to the east reach 6000'. I'm at 4000', with nearest mountain range reaching 5000' are 20-25 miles away. I MIGHT get that "knife edge diffraction". I decided it was worth investing in a Winegard HD 9095P UHF only antenna. Once hooked up I can check signal strength on my Fusion5 digital TV card on the PC to see if I get adequate signal strength worth investing another $60 in a good preamp.


Everyone else in the area uses satellite. Dish Network does offer the local Tucson TV stations, but only in SD. After enjoying OTA HD programming for several years in the city, I know I'll be unhappy paying $40/mo.+ to watch the Superbowl and "24" in SD.

Keeping my fingers crossed.


----------



## MrMolding

rwantennasat: I'l be first in line if you manufacture a line of CM 4251 replicas.


----------



## Schwingding




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *flabingo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My friend bought a new sony Bravia for his apartment in north Naples Florida. He lives on the 14th floor of a condo with a clear view of all the networks within 35 miles. The range is between 6 and 10 degrees. Will an indoor or outdoor HDTV directional antenna work for him? David



David, send your "friend" here - antennaweb.org - simply input your friend's address, and follow the instructions/directions on type of antenna best suited for him. That seems to be a great starting point for these types of issues.


----------



## flabingo

Thanks, I am familiar with the site and it shows that an outdoor antenna (directional) will pick up all the network stations easily. But I wanted insight from someone in the area who could confirm that it would work and which unit would they recommend. Also will the picture be any different than the comcast box in terms of quality? I ordered a comcast box for him after the direct guy said it would not work. I was surprised because he has a clear site to 218 and being on the 14 floor has nothing in front of him. David


----------



## maxpower2078

So I am currently using a Terk HDTVi little indoor antenna that gets a few stations but am also missing a few. I was looking into the Terk TV55, but can't find it anywhere and was directed in a new direction now. Can anyone suggest a good antenna such as a channel master or wineguard that is around the same range as the TV55. I was looking into some of these anvantage series channel masters which look pretty good. Here is my reception info
www.humannart.com/fresnodtv.jpg


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *maxpower2078* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can anyone suggest a good antenna such as a channel master or wineguard that is around the same range as the TV55.



Hard to find a good antenna with negative gain ( http://www.laaudiofile.com/images/tv55sig.jpg ) these days...


Any of the advantage antennas is going to be better ( http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg4.htm ).


Don't buy into the amplified hype. You can add a preamplifier if it will make you feel better, but the preamplified stats are the only ones that matter.


Those violet stations will require a good-sized antenna. I'd try a Channel Master 4228 myself. It might be enough for channels 7 and 9, and is a top-notch performer for UHF. If that's too big, the 4221 should be enough for almost all the UHF channels.


----------



## maxpower2078




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hard to find a good antenna with negative gain ( http://www.laaudiofile.com/images/tv55sig.jpg ) these days...
> 
> 
> Any of the advantage antennas is going to be better ( http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg4.htm ).
> 
> 
> Don't buy into the amplified hype. You can add a preamplifier if it will make you feel better, but the preamplified stats are the only ones that matter.
> 
> 
> Those violet stations will require a good-sized antenna. I'd try a Channel Master 4228 myself. It might be enough for channels 7 and 9, and is a top-notch performer for UHF. If that's too big, the 4221 should be enough for almost all the UHF channels.



Thank you for all the info, that is very helpful. This looks like a great antenna but doesn't do VHF. I have a couple of channels in VHF that I need to pickup. I found the Channel Master CM 3018 for a good price. This seems like a good antenna that will do both UHF/VHF with long range.


----------



## AntAltMike

I don't think the Terk55 antenna active reception element has negative gain. I think that when you shut the power inserter off, the preamplifier becomes a dead semiconductor circuit that still leaks through a little signal.


I serviced a commercial establishment located halfway between Baltimore and Washington, DC that was sourcing 47 TVs off one of those stupid things and it worked well for them, since it is bi-directional. They also had six Channel Plus monstrosities that I think combined DA500 amplifiers with 8-port vertical spitters, and four of the six wall-wart power supplies had severe hums, so I threw them all out and replaced them with a single TA-36 amplifier.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *maxpower2078* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thank you for all the info, that is very helpful. This looks like a great antenna but doesn't do VHF. I have a couple of channels in VHF that I need to pickup.



Check this page ( http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html ) under the section "Using a UHF antenna for VHF". I'm not 100% sure, but fairly confident the 4228 will work just fine on channels 7 and 9 for you.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't think the Terk55 antenna active reception element has negative gain. I think that when you shut the power inserter off, the preamplifier becomes a dead semiconductor circuit that still leaks through a little signal.



Hey, not to argue with a master installer, but how is this thing going to do any better than a dipole? If it were as good as an isotropic dipole, it would have 0dB of gain. Since it isn't the ideal length for almost every channel, it only stands to reason that it will get less signal than an isotropic dipole, hence negative gain.


----------



## maxpower2078




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Check this page ( http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html ) under the section "Using a UHF antenna for VHF". I'm not 100% sure, but fairly confident the 4228 will work just fine on channels 7 and 9 for you.



So the 4228 looks pretty good in the charts, but if it could pick up VHF stations why don't they lable it as being able to do so?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *maxpower2078* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So the 4228 looks pretty good in the charts, but if it could pick up VHF stations why don't they lable it as being able to do so?



All "UHF-only" antennas pick up some signal on hi-VHF. But as that chart shows, they get next to nothing on lo-VHF and if they advertised it as a VHF/UHF antenna, people would be upset, and Joe Public has no idea what "hi-VHF" means. My guess is that it wasn't designed to receive VHF so they don't advertise it as such. My AntennasDirect 91XG does a pretty good job on hi-VHF, but my Winegard 8200P was better.


If you get the 4228 and it fails for those channels, you could get Winegard's hi-VHF antenna and combine the two. But the 4228 is going to outperform the Terk TV55 by a lot.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hard to find a good antenna with negative gain ( http://www.laaudiofile.com/images/tv55sig.jpg ) these days...
> 
> 
> Any of the advantage antennas is going to be better ( http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg4.htm ).
> 
> 
> Don't buy into the amplified hype. You can add a preamplifier if it will make you feel better, but the preamplified stats are the only ones that matter.
> 
> 
> Those violet stations will require a good-sized antenna. I'd try a Channel Master 4228 myself. It might be enough for channels 7 and 9, and is a top-notch performer for UHF. If that's too big, the 4221 should be enough for almost all the UHF channels.


*What was plotted was NOT negative antenna gain* (note the units are dBmV...not dBd or dBi...or even dB).

If you read the review articles for the Terk TV55 (amplified dipole) and the Terk TV38 Combo Antenna (VHF LPA + UHF Corner Yagi),

you'll find that what they measured was actually the received signal strength, using a Sencore Signal Level Meter at the end of 100 foot of RG-6.

Hence the curve is mislabeled as "GAIN" and should actually be "RECEIVED SIGNAL LEVEL AFTER 100 FEET OF RG-6":
http://www.laaudiofile.com/prodrev.html 


If you compare the amplified Terk TV55 to the unamplified TV38, you'll see that the TV55 resulted in only a few dB lower

received signal level than the TV38 over the range of UHF channels tested and provided a "stronger" signal for the VHF band.

Of course, simply inserting an amplifier will boost the signal level (so, why not insert two amps...or even three????),

but that may also be accompanied by lots of other problems, such as intermod products, which were not measured.

So it is very difficult to draw conclusions strictly from received signal level.


----------



## maxpower2078




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> All "UHF-only" antennas pick up some signal on hi-VHF. But as that chart shows, they get next to nothing on lo-VHF and if they advertised it as a VHF/UHF antenna, people would be upset, and Joe Public has no idea what "hi-VHF" means. My guess is that it wasn't designed to receive VHF so they don't advertise it as such. My AntennasDirect 91XG does a pretty good job on hi-VHF, but my Winegard 8200P was better.
> 
> 
> If you get the 4228 and it fails for those channels, you could get Winegard's hi-VHF antenna and combine the two. But the 4228 is going to outperform the Terk TV55 by a lot.



I think I am going to give it a shot. I am confident on the high VHF stuff it will work, the only problem I forsee is I have 2 different directions to point it and I don't want to have to deal with a rotator. There is 53 degrees between them, so maybe I can point it in the center and get lucky. If not there is only 2 stations at one of them PBS and FOX


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey, not to argue with a master installer, but how is this thing going to do any better than a dipole? If it were as good as an isotropic dipole, it would have 0dB of gain. Since it isn't the ideal length for almost every channel, it only stands to reason that it will get less signal than an isotropic dipole, hence negative gain.



I haven't ripped one apart, but I would figure it has three dipoles in it: one for low, high and UHF. Maybe it doesn't. I just meant that the graph to which you linked, showing a negative gain of 10 or more dB, did not do justice to this product. It is a cosmetically attractive dipole that will serve some people well.


----------



## rwantennasat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't think the Terk55 antenna active reception element has negative gain. I think that when you shut the power inserter off, the preamplifier becomes a dead semiconductor circuit that still leaks through a little signal.
> 
> 
> I serviced a commercial establishment located halfway between Baltimore and Washington, DC that was sourcing 47 TVs off one of those stupid things and it worked well for them, since it is bi-directional. They also had six Channel Plus monstrosities that I think combined DA500 amplifiers with 8-port vertical spitters, and four of the six wall-wart power supplies had severe hums, so I threw them all out and replaced them with a single TA-36 amplifier.



Ah glad t see im not the only smatv installer who runs into these kind of abortions!!!!

Like the 200 room motels that have satellite modulated on uhf instaed of using proper rack mounted cable quality Mods??? Then they go and stick thes piece of **** dist amps from Walmart for 19.00 all over the place because the uhf modulated channels cant make the long cable Runs????? HMMMMMM nothing a few rack mods in the cable frequency and a few good hca30 's on each floor didnt help!!!!!!!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I haven't ripped one apart, but I would figure it has three dipoles in it: one for low, high and UHF. Maybe it doesn't. I just meant that the graph to which you linked, showing a negative gain of 10 or more dB, did not do justice to this product. It is a cosmetically attractive dipole that will serve some people well.



They claim it has some kind of "helical" element.


I would expect this antenna to have negative gain, but as holl_ands pointed out, the chart is not dBi or dBd.


Reading the reviews on amazon, it looks like many people have had better results indoors with rabbit ears. That matches my experience with a similar product from Radio Shack. VHF performance was poor, UHF "performance" was a joke.


You strip coax to the right length, it will work with strong enough signals. You arrange it horizontally and perpendicular to the source signals, and you'll get performance approaching a dipole.


The only thing the TV55 has going for it is its weather-proof exterior. Beyond that, it's just another gimmick antenna that isn't worth the price of admission. The amplifier only masks how terrible this antenna is.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *maxpower2078* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...the only problem I forsee is I have 2 different directions to point it and I don't want to have to deal with a rotator. There is 53 degrees between them, so maybe I can point it in the center and get lucky. If not there is only 2 stations at one of them PBS and FOX



If you really want to avoid the rotator, you might do better with the 4221 - it will accept signals over a wider range. Not as good on VHF, but probably would still work okay.


Consider getting a Channel Master 7777 preamplifier, too. It may help with the VHF reception, and shouldn't hurt you any with the UHF.


----------



## hdtv4prs

I live about 35 to 40 miles south from stations in the Cleveland area. Just recently got the Sony 42" A10 hdtv and the Directv R-10/ DVR combo. I have an old rat-shack antenna and pre-am (about 20 yrs. old) mounted on a 30' tower with a rotor. Pleased with the HD pics fom channels : vhf 3.1,5.1 uhf 19.1,43.1,50.2. I would like to get a new UHF/VHF antenna with a pre-amp if neccesary.

Called up a local installer, they suggest a CM 3679 UHF/VHF combo with the CM 7777 Titan 2 pre-amp. Reading that some stations may move to VHF in the future, is one reason that I would prefer a UHF/VHF combo. Zip code is 44646. Antennaweb.org has antenna type violet for the 19.1 vhf at 39 miles and UHF channel 41 at 47.2 miles for the stations most distant. I am long in the tooth(74) so I don't want to handle the

installation myself, climbing the tower.

Any suggestions if I should get the above combo? Also how can I measure signal strenght for signals received OTA on my Sony HDTV?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hdtv4prs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Called up a local installer, they suggest a CM 3679 UHF/VHF combo with the CM 7777 Titan 2 pre-amp. Reading that some stations may move to VHF in the future, is one reason that I would prefer a UHF/VHF combo.



For the Cleveland market, you've got a lo-VHF now, so no need to justify the combo.


The 3679 looks good. The 7777 is best in class.


----------



## maxpower2078




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you really want to avoid the rotator, you might do better with the 4221 - it will accept signals over a wider range. Not as good on VHF, but probably would still work okay.
> 
> 
> Consider getting a Channel Master 7777 preamplifier, too. It may help with the VHF reception, and shouldn't hurt you any with the UHF.



Thanks for all the info. I have a crazy thought, can I put two signals into my receiver (HDTV PC card) by using a splitter before they enter. So I could buy say the 4228, point it in one direction (28 degrees) and use my indoor antenna to pick up the stations (85 degrees) from the other direction which it does fine? Maybe this is crazy thinking but worth asking I guess. Maybe the tuner can only tune from one antenna at a time or something.


----------



## enier

Could this be good or just hype?

http://www.antennasdirect.com/lacrosse.html


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *enier* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Could this be good or just hype?



Good? Yes. Looks like it would be excellent at making ones wallet thinner. But, equal or better performance can be obtained for *much* less money. Then again, the ad copy promotes how the antenna looks, so if it's looks are worth one fitty to you...then it's perfect for your decor.


----------



## intrac

Looks almost like the Winegard Sharpshooter!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *maxpower2078* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a crazy thought, can I put two signals into my receiver (HDTV PC card) by using a splitter before they enter.



You can do it, but the results will be unpredictable. At best, it will work like you want it to. At worst, you will get zero reception on any DTV signal.


You could try it and then use an A/B switch if it doesn't work out the way you want. Not quite automated, but cheaper than a rotor.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *enier* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Could this be good or just hype?
> 
> http://www.antennasdirect.com/lacrosse.html



I agree that it looks like the Squareshooter. But the advertised gain is nothing like the Squareshooter. 10.8db would be impressive indeed, and would be more than many people would need. More than likely, this is just a DB2 in a plastic case. But it sure will look nice on the outside of the home...


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gshamill* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a grounding question.
> 
> Sorry if this is the wrong thread, but as I read along it became apparent some knowledgable people are reading this.
> 
> Anyway, I just installed an antenna-pre amp & rotor to my chimney and need to ground the whole set up. I understand I need to use a grounding block at the nearest point of entry.
> 
> Here is my problem, there is no direct route to the ground from my chimney. The grounding wire would have to lay on my roof. Actually my chimney lies in two valleys so the ground wire would have to go up before it could go down to the ground.I know this would be look bad but would it be safe?
> 
> The second option would be to run the ground wire into the attic then ground to a pipe or possibly back outside at a less conspicuous place. Is this second option safe? If so do I then need to use a covered wire?
> 
> Thanks in advance!



The wire can lay on the roof and it can be bare copper wire. Ground the mast and the coax entry point at the closest place possible. If the power company ground is not the closest, drive a ground rod in the ground and connect the mast & entry point grounds to the rod. Then run a ground wire from the ground rod to the house's main power company electrical ground. The two ground sources _must_ be bonded together electrically to meet code. Bonding prevents ground loops from forming betweent the difference of potential of the 2 ground sources. A ground loop can eventually kill electronic equipment.


----------



## enier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I agree that it looks like the Squareshooter. But the advertised gain is nothing like the Squareshooter. 10.8db would be impressive indeed, and would be more than many people would need. More than likely, this is just a DB2 in a plastic case. But it sure will look nice on the outside of the home...



So until proven effective we can safely say that it is designed for HOA's approval...
 









BTW, anybody out there knows the reception pattern of the DB4? I've got to find stations in 36, 135, 178 and 360 degrees.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *enier* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> BTW, anybody out there knows the reception pattern of the DB4? I've got to find stations in 36, 135, 178 and 360 degrees.


 http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB4.html 


Hard spread for you to get without a rotor. Maybe if you removed the screen, but then your front-to-back ratio is 0dB, which could cause multipath problems (and cost you 3dB of gain.)


----------



## maxpower2078




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You can do it, but the results will be unpredictable. At best, it will work like you want it to. At worst, you will get zero reception on any DTV signal.
> 
> 
> You could try it and then use an A/B switch if it doesn't work out the way you want. Not quite automated, but cheaper than a rotor.



Well I finally got around to setting up the living room. I crawled under the house to run the coax into the garage where I put the small indoor antenna in the rafters of the garage and I am picking up every station I want to with over 90% strength except 1 channel. So I am going to try and rotate a few degrees counter-clockwise and I think I will have everything I need off a terk HDTVi cheap-o antenna.


----------



## enier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB4.html
> 
> 
> Hard spread for you to get without a rotor. Maybe if you removed the screen, but then your front-to-back ratio is 0dB, which could cause multipath problems (and cost you 3dB of gain.)



Thanks for the info. I am now looking at the Wingard PR-4400 which is similar but has lower front gain but better rear gain. The towers are only about 13mi at the back and 21mi & 29mi at the front. The farthest is 35mi @ 135 degrees but not a must have channel anyway.


That's a good website.


----------



## August West




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *maxpower2078* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thank you for all the info, that is very helpful. This looks like a great antenna but doesn't do VHF. I have a couple of channels in VHF that I need to pickup. I found the Channel Master CM 3018 for a good price. This seems like a good antenna that will do both UHF/VHF with long range.



I have the CM 3018 in my attic with a 7777 preamp due to the long cable run and it does reasonably well for not a lot of money. Distance to most towers is about 25 miles. It does drop out digital signals with some regularity (worse, surprisingly in the winter) but I attribute this to being in the attic and with a treeline nearby that is taller than the house.


I will be putting in a CM 4228 in the next few months (expecting one for Christmas) and can report on a head to head comparison then.


----------



## irsean

Considering Terk TV-38.

Stats:


60+ miles from transmitters (Mt. Wilson - LA, CA)

Decent Line of Sight.


Is this a decent enough antenna or is there something else I don't know about?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irsean* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Considering Terk TV-38.
> 
> 
> Is this a decent enough antenna or is there something else I don't know about?



Sure, but it's just a 12' VHF/UHF combo, and the Channel Master and Winegard models will do just as well (or better) for half of Terk's price.


----------



## irsean

Which models do you recommend? It seems all the pertinent channels are at 270-272 degrees so I'll probably only need to aim it in one direction.


----------



## irsean

OK, now I'm looking at CM CrossFire 3671 and the Winegard Platinum 8200P HD. The Channel Master is half the price and seems to have all the bang as the winegard.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irsean* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> OK, now I'm looking at CM CrossFire 3671 and the Winegard Platinum 8200P HD. The Channel Master is half the price and seems to have all the bang as the winegard.



Do you need any VHF stations? Most of the size of a combo antenna is for the VHF-Low band which you don't need for your DTV signals. If you only need UHF then a Channelmaster CM-4228 with a CM-7777 pre-amp is a better UHF antenna system then a combo antenna would give you. If you need to receive in the VHF-high band you could add a Weingard YA-1713.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irsean* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> OK, now I'm looking at CM CrossFire 3671 and the Winegard Platinum 8200P HD. The Channel Master is half the price and seems to have all the bang as the winegard.



I love the Winegards for their build quality, but a Channel Master can perform just as well.


Given the Mt Wilson elevation and decent line of sight, I think either of those antennas is overkill. The Channel Master 3677 or Winegard HD7080P would most likely do the job with plenty of room to spare.


----------



## irsean

I'm basing those antennae on my distance. Is overkill bad? Would I get some kind of compensation if I have dropouts from a longer distance antenna? I'd like to keep from having to place an amp or am I'm just being dumb?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irsean* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm basing those antennae on my distance. Is overkill bad? Would I get some kind of compensation if I have dropouts from a longer distance antenna? I'd like to keep from having to place an amp or am I'm just being dumb?



Distance ratings are over "average" terrain. Mount Wilson is not "average"! While most locations only have line-of-sight for 60 miles because the curvature of the earth gets in the way, Mt. Wilson's extends for over 110 miles. If you're not blocked by buildings or trees, an indoor antenna could even work for you at your distance.


Overkill can be bad, but it usually won't hurt you with reception. The supports might fail because of the added weight, and it will hurt your wallet more, but other than that, it's not too big of a deal.


----------



## Neil L

Nothing "wrong" with using a larger antenna than necessary. It will generate a little move voltage than a smaller one, that is all. It's possible that the big antenna will generate double the voltage of the smaller one for the same RF situation. But that isn't going to hurt any receiver. Some folks that are using pre-amps, are putting 100 times the voltage into their receivers than they would need, with no harm done...usually.










Still, I agree with sregener that you don't need such a big antenna. I used to live in southern LA and it doesn't take a big antenna to get a good signal from 60 miles when you have the transmitter as high up as Mt. Wilson.


----------



## virus

I currently have a CM4228. I had it in the attic, but had problems with my ABC affiliate so I installed it on the roof. ABC is flawless, but now all of my other channels have a lower signal strength. Fairfas Antenna came out and said I had it installed perfectly and said that they have had better luck with the CM4221. The guy across the street has a CM4221 and his signal is in the 90% range. Should I try the CM4221 or DB4?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *virus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Should I try the CM4221 or DB4?



Save the $$$, get the better antenna, and listen to the experts at Fairfax. CM4221.


----------



## richard korsgren

......traderdan: At 31 miles, an attic mount is trial and error, nothing definite. You will need a large antenna, at least.


----------



## richard korsgren

..traderdan: Check out Winegard and Channel Master for a wide range of antennas. 'stark electronics' is a good retailer.


----------



## virus

I'm very curious as to why the 4221 would be better since the 4228 is basically 2 4221's. Does the 4221 have a wider field with shorter range? Lastly, why would my 4228 get better reception in my attic pointing directly into a neighbors house rather than on my roof with no obstructions?


----------



## adonoho

Folks,


I've got my plasma, my HD DirecTiVo and OTA antenna all working. Things look great.


Yet, KLRU (UHF 22) has a sometimes highly variable signal strength (normally 75 - 80, variable down to 10 - 20 for short periods, all other channels appear stable). This variability results in frequent audio dropouts and some pixelation. I am 2.7+ miles from the KLRU antenna. My antenna is an external Winegard PR4400 and mounted about fifteen feet up on the side of the house. I need a 20 degree beam width, which the Winegard exceeds with a 45 degree beamwidth. The KLRU antenna is not on either extreme edge of the beam width (bearing 255 degrees from my home). It is 6 degrees south of the northern most antennas (KXAN [UHF 21] and KNVA [UHF 49], bearing 261 degrees, 90+ on SS meter). And it is 14 degrees north of the southern most antenna (KTBC [UHF 56], bearing 241, 90+ on SS meter). All of the signals from the other stations are stronger than the KLRU signal (confirmed on both the plasma and DirecTiVo signal strength meters). While the antenna is not pointed exactly at KLRU (the house wall keeps me from centering on it), KLRU is well within the range of angles above the half power amplification levels (KLRU looks to be 5 - 10 off axis). The antenna is mounted well. I cannot cause it to wobble by hand.


Any advice? A preamp seems over kill since most of the other channels are booming in at 90+ in the signal meter. Or is this a multipath problem? Is there an answer for multipath?


I was looking at the Antennas Direct DB4 because it is three inches narrower to focus directly on KLRU. But this seems like a foolish action when the PR4400 is already working well, is paid for and has similar performance to the DB4. With an extended mount, I could get the PR4400 a few feet higher. Or go overkill with a Winegard PR8800. I can't take it to the roof because that would shade the solar panels. Any thoughts?


Thanks in Advance,

Andrew


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *traderdan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ... All the antenna that I have found that could be installed in the attic are either uhf or vhf but not both for that distance...



Install separate UHF & lowband VHF antennas, like the Channel Master CM 3021 UHF antenna and the AntennaCraft Y5-2-6 lowband VHF (chs 2-6) antenna .


Combine them onto one downlead coax with a Channel Master CM 7777 VHF/UHF preamp , which has separate coax inputs for VHF & UHF antennas.


Search each of the page links above for the specific equipment.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *adonoho* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've got my plasma, my HD DirecTiVo and OTA antenna all working. Things look great.
> 
> 
> Yet, KLRU (UHF 22) has a sometimes highly variable signal strength (normally 75 - 80, variable down to 10 - 20 for short periods, all other channels appear stable). This variability results in frequent audio dropouts and some pixelation.



Try a variable attenuator from Radio Shack. The HD DirecTivos seem to be sensitive to overly hot signals.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *virus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm very curious as to why the 4221 would be better since the 4228 is basically 2 4221's. Does the 4221 have a wider field with shorter range? Lastly, why would my 4228 get better reception in my attic pointing directly into a neighbors house rather than on my roof with no obstructions?



I'm sure someone with a waveform analyzer could explain the whys, but reception isn't an exact science - it's more of an art form.


The 4221 does have a wider field and shorter range.


You didn't say if you tried changing the elevation of your antenna on the roof, but moving it up or down by 12" could yield very different results.


I assume you're messing with this not just because of lower signal strength meter readings, but due to actual reception problems (dropouts, pixelization.) If you're worried about the absolute number, though, don't. Digital reception can be perfect even with errors.


----------



## enier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *virus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm very curious as to why the 4221 would be better since the 4228 is basically 2 4221's. Does the 4221 have a wider field with shorter range? Lastly, why would my 4228 get better reception in my attic pointing directly into a neighbors house rather than on my roof with no obstructions?



From what I read, the 4228 is an array of 2 4221s. It creates a narrower but longer beam if you think of it like a flashlight. So the 4221 casts a wider but shorter light.


----------



## virus

What I really don't understand is that no tower is further than 32.1 miles away and they only range from 79-81 degrees. That's not much varience, but if I move the antenna just a 1/4 inch it will kick at least 1 of the channels out. The 4221 should take care of that varience. I ordered a 4221 from Warren Electronics for $20 just to try it. Could the CM7775 preamp be causing the problem?


----------



## joker35

Hi there,


I have the basic package from Comcast and I would like to get the local HDTV stations via an antenna, of course to keep the costs down. Is it possible just to combine both the cable signal and antenna signal on one cable ?


Thanks


----------



## enier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *virus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What I really don't understand is that no tower is further than 32.1 miles away and they only range from 79-81 degrees. That's not much varience, but if I move the antenna just a 1/4 inch it will kick at least 1 of the channels out. The 4221 should take care of that varience. I ordered a 4221 from Warren Electronics for $20 just to try it. Could the CM7775 preamp be causing the problem?



It can be tricky because of so many variables. In my case, ever since the leaves fell I cannot get all the hd channels I used to get. I'm assuming multi-path problems. Putting the antenna outside probably solves my problems but I want to try the attic one more time. And I don't want to climb the roof just yet specially this time of year. I'm going to try the winegard 4-bay because it has better rear reception than 4221. What can you except trial and error...


----------



## rajaijah

Hi.

I am a newbie to the forum. I am from Lincoln, NE(68504). I dont have cable TV in my house and planning to get a good antenna for local channels. I dont want to settle with the cheap 7 bucks walmart antenna . i have had bad experiences with that. I live in a apartment complex in 2nd floor. I have a balcony with a clear view to the east and south sky.


according to antennaweb the distance I need is abt 35 miles or less.



what antenna should i buy for getting good reception. I saw people talking about The Channel Master 4221 and Winegard models but i dont know what to buy as i dont have a house but live in an apartment.

I also saw "Terk Indoor HDTV Antenna with VHF/UHF HD Reception" . its portable and cost abt $23 and says HD reception. reviews are mixed in circuitcity site. if I can mount and use 4221 or Winegard i would go with them if they are more advantageous.


Also where to buy economically. any help is appreciated. thanks


Rajaijah.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *virus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Could the CM7775 preamp be causing the problem?



Yes. Remove the preamp (both indoor AND outdoor units) and see if the problem goes away. You really shouldn't be using a preamp at your distance and in such a signal-rich environment.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajaijah* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> what antenna should i buy for getting good reception. I saw people talking about The Channel Master 4221 and Winegard models but i dont know what to buy as i dont have a house but live in an apartment.
> 
> 
> Also where to buy economically. any help is appreciated. thanks



A 4221 or Winegard PR-4400 would be excellent choices. I'd put a little dirt or concrete in a pot and put a mast section in that. Then attach the antenna to the mast. You could also tie it in place with rope.


Many good places exist online to buy antennas from including SolidSignal, Stark Electronic, and Warren Electronics.


----------



## tivo1

Hi all,


After trying an indoor antenna, Ive decided i should do the outdoor antenna, Im not sure what exactly I would need, im 30 miles or less from most stations, and they are a mix of UHF and VHF, i was wondering if this one from radio shack would work, Of if there is something else i should be looking for?

Model: VU-75 XR | Catalog #: 15-2151
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 


Also with this will i need anything else? Like a preamp?


----------



## virus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes. Remove the preamp (both indoor AND outdoor units) and see if the problem goes away. You really shouldn't be using a preamp at your distance and in such a signal-rich environment.



I used a preamp because it's a 80 or so ft run. I can shorten it up considerably by about 25-30 ft as it's just excess wire I left to try different roof locations.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *virus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I used a preamp because it's a 80 or so ft run. I can shorten it up considerably by about 25-30 ft as it's just excess wire I left to try different roof locations.



80 feet? You're using a 28dB preamp for 80' of cable loss for stations 30 miles away? "Hello, pest control? I have a mosquito in the house." "We'll send a backhoe right on over."


Remove the preamp. Sell it on eBay. Shorten the cable if you want, but you probably don't need to.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tivo1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> i was wondering if this one from radio shack would work, Of if there is something else i should be looking for?
> 
> Model: VU-75 XR | Catalog #: 15-2151



Looks like it's worth trying. You can always return stuff to Radio Shack if it doesn't work the way you want it to. Just say no to the preamp. *DO* ground it properly.


----------



## tivo1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Looks like it's worth trying. You can always return stuff to Radio Shack if it doesn't work the way you want it to. Just say no to the preamp. *DO* ground it properly.




Any advice on the proper way? what extra stuff will i need to pick up? Remember im new/dumb to this whole outside antenna thing


----------



## etcarroll




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tivo1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Any advice on the proper way? what extra stuff will i need to pick up? Remember im new/dumb to this whole outside antenna thing




Look for install guide here, its what I used;

http://www.channelmaster.com/home.htm


----------



## rajaijah




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A 4221 or Winegard PR-4400 would be excellent choices. I'd put a little dirt or concrete in a pot and put a mast section in that. Then attach the antenna to the mast. You could also tie it in place with rope.
> 
> 
> Many good places exist online to buy antennas from including SolidSignal, Stark Electronic, and Warren Electronics.



thanks sregener.I have decided to get Winegard PR-4400 based on your suggestion. One more doubt I had was whether I need to rotate the outdoor antenna everytime i am switching between channels broadcasted in different angles. It would nt be a problem with indoor antenna but since its outdoor I am wondering what to be done.


thanks


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rajaijah* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> One more doubt I had was whether I need to rotate the outdoor antenna everytime i am switching between channels broadcasted in different angles. It would nt be a problem with indoor antenna but since its outdoor I am wondering what to be done.



How big of a spread are we talking? 5-10 degrees isn't going to matter. 20-30 probably wouldn't, either. But if we're much beyond that, you'll need to rotate the antenna. The easiest way to do this is with a rotor - a device designed to turn antennas. It uses its own 3-wire cable, so there'd be the issue of running wire for it.


----------



## snowtigger

I come across a type of dish mounted antenna in RadioShack. I currently have SuperDish from Dish Network, post mounted. Does anyone have experience with dish mounted antenna, i.e., does it work? Will it interfere with satellite signals? I am about 30 ~ 60 miles away from different transmitters. Attic installation is an option, but I would rather not to go through those drilling jobs.


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The Solid Signal order came yesterday, and they sent the Terrestrial Digital brand 91XG (indicated on box and instructions).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I realize they're the same exact antennas sold under different brands, but what is the point of having both on the Solid Signal site if they are just going to send whatever, ignoring what you ordered?? Antennas Direct is in St. Louis, so I thought I was "supporting" them... But I did notice that the phone number on the TD instructions is the same as at the AD site, so who knows.



I found out that AD used to be TD...







Must've been thinking of another company.












> Quote:
> Problem is, as far as I can tell, I didn't get the "thumb screw" to attach the balun box to the boom.



I got the missing thumb screw sent to me (directly from AD, not Solid Signal).


They put a 43/91XG "assembly tips" sheet in the envelope, and at the bottom it says, "Performance may be improved by facing the metallic side of the director elements towards the transmitters." Crap!







I already put the directors on the opposite way, because it looked "right" and that's how it is in the picture on HDTV Primer .







I wonder, in their wording, does "may be" mean "will be" or that it's unknown, but possible (might/could be)?










The metal is centered on the directors, so spacing from the driven element wouldn't change and I assumed the plastic being in front wouldn't affect signals... Thoughts? sregener?







If there could be any improvement I will switch them, expecially since the directors influence the higher frequencies more and I'm still having problems with channel 56 (don't have it mounted yet, just took it out once).


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I already put the directors on the opposite way, because it looked "right" and that's how it is in the picture on HDTV Primer .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder, in their wording, does "may be" mean "will be" or that it's unknown, but possible (might/could be)?



I started with the elements facing the wrong way, but realized my mistake after I put two or three on and reversed them. In theory, the ABS plastic should have no impact on the performance of the metal, since the plastic is supposed to be a nonconductive material. In practice, the plastic probably does have some impact on the performance. I doubt that the antenna manufacturer tested the antenna in anything other than the "correct" assembly pattern, so they may not even know for sure. What they do know is that they designed it precisely and anything else isn't optimal.


If you'd looked very closely at the director plastic, you would have seen an arrow pointing in one direction.


You should have followed the pictures on my site: http://www.geocities.com/figbert/ant...irect91xg.html


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

Oh wow, I just looked and you're right! (Of course.)







Just thought that was some molding texture and didn't ever notice the arrow. And since the original instructions didn't mention direction...







I do see now that the indentation in the metal also makes them non-symmetrical.


Hopefully I can remove them without breaking anything. They were pretty stiff to snap on, even after discovering that I needed to bend the upper plastic part to spread the "clips" apart.


Thanks for all your help.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hopefully I can remove them without breaking anything. They were pretty stiff to snap on, even after discovering that I needed to bend the upper plastic part to spread the "clips" apart.



Remove them the same way - spread the clips. They should come off fairly easily if you do it that way. Twisting, pulling and chain saws are not recommended.


----------



## acrispin77

I bought the cable with the connectors on and they are too large to go thru the boot and I don't want to compromise the boot by forcing and tearing it.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *acrispin77* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I bought the cable with the connectors on and they are too large to go thru the boot and I don't want to compromise the boot by forcing and tearing it.



I recommend that you forget the boot and just use coax seal instead:
http://www.solidsignal.com/search_re...&SiteREF=SSCOM 

You should also use silicone grease (that you can buy in an auto parts store- it's used for spark plug connections) inside the connector.


----------



## TVSaurus

Recommendation...


Long Beach (Biloxi), MS zip 39560


According to antennaweb I'll need a medium directional for the 15° spread and maximum of 31 miles to pick up my locals. Should I go with the CM 4221, 4228 or DB4? I would like to mount in the attic but can mount on the outside facing the North if possible.




> Quote:
> .....................................comp miles freq
> 
> yellow-uhf WLOX-DT 10° 26.1 39
> 
> red - uhf WXXV-DT 20° 10.6 48
> 
> red - uhf WMAH-DT 25° 30.9 16


----------



## acrispin77

Do you mean to put the silicone grease on the connection and then cover with coax-seal?


Or were you referring to putting the silicone on only if I use a weather boot?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sirchadwick* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Channel Master 4248
> 
> Antenna Direct 91XG
> 
> 
> Trying to pull in HD signals 60+ miles.



Having owned both of these, don't bother with the 4248.


If you haven't read my review of the 91XG, it's here: http://www.geocities.com/figbert/ant...irect91xg.html 


Generally speaking, an outdoor antenna will lose at least 50% of its performance over 10 years due to corrosion. This does not apply if the attic is kept indoors.


----------



## MrMolding




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sirchadwick* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Channel Master 4248
> 
> Antenna Direct 91XG
> 
> 
> Trying to pull in HD signals 60+ miles.
> 
> 
> Thanks for your feedback.



I have both of these antennas. The 91XG is MUCH better for long distance but (in my opinion) not great for an all around antenna unless all of your desired stations are in the same direction. In my case, I found that the 4248 is much better at pulling in everything in a 45 degree range but can't come close to the range of the 91xg. Also, beyond 50 miles, I got nothing with either of them without a preamp.


----------



## virus

The 4228 is $39.50 from Warrenelectronics.com. Both Solid and Warren delivered my antenna within 2 days and their customer service has been excellent.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Generally speaking, an outdoor antenna will lose at least 50% of its performance over 10 years due to corrosion.



Sorry, but that sounds like BS. Can you provide a link or other explanation?


Ron


----------



## bernieoc

You switched on me.

sirchadwick asks about 4248, gets reply from sregener on 4248, also mrmolding.

Then sirchadwick switches to 4228.

Which one are we comparing to the 91xg?


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This does not apply if the attic is kept indoors.



I always try to keep my attic indoors and my antenna outdoors.


----------



## firemantom26

I am always looking to improve channel reception OTA. A friend of mine told me that since that I have Comcast cable, I could run RG6 cable from my splitter from it to my antenna and connect it some where to my OTA antenna and it would give a 50 % DB gain. I have channel Master 4228 UHF antenna Channel Master 777 amp and a Channel Master rotator( CM 9521A)


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I recommend that you forget the boot and just use coax seal instead:
> http://www.solidsignal.com/search_re...&SiteREF=SSCOM
> 
> 
> You should also use silicone grease (that you can buy in an auto parts store- it's used for spark plug connections) inside the connector.



Just so he knows, you can get Coax Seal at Radio Shack for only $2.







Good thing I looked it up, I was gonna say $4, which is still less than Solid Signal's...











And I also didn't think you'd need silicone grease in the connector with Coax Seal. I thought any of these methods were OK on their own:


Weatherproof connector (silicone-filled ferrule + O-ring)

Weather boot

Coax Seal around the whole thing



BTW, in case anyone is interested, Solid Signal has an open-box CM 7777 pre-amp right now for $35 -- half the regular price. I just ordered one the other day, since I assume open-box should be OK... They had one a few weeks ago and I didn't get it before it disappeared. I'm surprised it's still there this time, so if someone misses it, just keep checking back at that page till they have one again. That's what I did.







And it looks like I got free shipping too, contrary to what the shopping cart said!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sirchadwick* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am doing some analysis with the gain charts to help make a better decision. The fault with the 91XG is that it ONLY begins to get decent gain above channel 48.



You've got some pretty tough standards if that's what you think. The chart here shows that the gap between the 91XG and the 4228 (*NOT* the 4248 that was mentioned elsewhere) is less than 2dB at its worst: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


Somewhere in the ancient history of this thread, someone did a side-by-side comparison of the two and had shocking results; the 91XG was better on the lower channels, and inferior on the higher ones! I've had great reception of low UHF channels with my 91XG, far outclassing the UHF section of my Winegard 8200P.


I highly recommend the 91XG to anyone seeking long-distance reception. I find it has a wide acceptance angle on my UHF channel 46 station about 30 miles distant (at 55kw) and is very narrow on long-distance stations (70 miles and further) where a 2-degree shift makes a huge difference. I do use a 28dB preamp with a 2.7dB noise figure.


The 91XG is what it is; a top-of-the-line corner-reflector/yagi hybrid. The reflector screen on the 91XG seems to be really well designed. It isn't perfect, but no antenna is. If long-distance reception is what you want, and you're siting your antenna outdoors, I don't think you can do much better, and you can do much, much worse.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sirchadwick* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Guys,
> 
> 
> Sorry for the confusion, I am only interested in the 91XG. I was always used to the American made Channel Master products (Diamond Quantum 4257 & their Parabolics).
> 
> 
> I am doing some analysis with the gain charts to help make a better decision. The fault with the 91XG is that it ONLY begins to get decent gain above channel 48.



Oh, yes, the CM parabolics. Back in the 70's I had the 6-foot unit @ 40 feet with a Winegard preamp on the line. Worked quite well for area reception and TV DXing.


Moving back to 2005, I'd have to agree with sregener's comments about the gain charts. It's a great starting point, but in real situations the info is not always that accurate. My main antenna setup includes two Triax Unix 100's stacked horizontally (picture attached) @ 30 feet (must keep the HOA happy!) with the CM 7775 on the line. These Triax antennas ( http://www.brymar.co.uk/acatalog/Onl...erials_12.html ) are virtually identical to the 91XG. I'm located 3-5 miles from most of my local TV towers so I have way too much RF around but I'm still able to get some decent out-of-town reception for DXing purposes. Also, I've spent a lot of time comparing the reception abilities of the Triax stack to single units of the 91XG, CM 4228 and CM 4221.


For whatever reason, whenever I'm able to receive stations from Louisville (approx. 110 miles) the single 91XG seems to be better than the Triax stack. Meanwhile, Cincinnati stations (approx. 100 miles) are always better with the Triax stack than the single 91XG. I think some of these results are due to the strong RF interference from my nearby antenna farm.


Anytime I'm able to receive one of three distant analog stations on ch. 34 (South Bend, IN @ 116 miles; Columbus, OH @ 164 miles; Campbellsville, KY @ 171 miles) I seem to get better reception from the single 91XG. My tests have shown the two CM antennas to do okay sometimes but usually the 91XG has outperformed them. I've tested in the same location as well as various locations for the results.


Locally I have a low-powered DTV station on ch. 48 (4 kW @ about 1000 feet) @ 36 miles. My strongest reception is from the Triax stack. The next strongest signal is from the 91XG. The next strongest signal is not from the CM 4228, which the test graph would lead you to believe, but rather for me it's from the CM 4221. Sometimes when I've tested this station with the 4228 it's been very difficult to receive.


Over the years I've certainly found that no one antenna is perfect or the best for all locations. Sometimes you just have to try one out and see for yourself. Your reception and mileage results may vary......  Just my 2 cents.


Steve


----------



## thebishman

I just installed a DB8 in the attic above my garage and am attempting to receive the Kansas City digital stations, in particular the Fox affiliate which just went to full power. I am 50-60 miles west in Topeka with no major hills between myself and the transmitters, (hey, it's Kansas! LOL).

I'd like to know what might be the best pre-amp to use with the DB8 to enhance my chances of receiving any signals from K. City; (so far, nothing).

The power supply will be inside with about a 50 feet run of RG6 to the antenna. Lastly, I don't want to over-power the local Topeka digital broadcasts if possible.

Any help appreciated.

Bish


----------



## Sirchadwick

Mr. Goldrich,


First of all, I would like to compliment you for the plethora amount of information provided.


The details of your experiments will help me make a better decision. As we both are aware, what we often see on the specifications things that do not apply to the real world, as it really boils down to our location and terrian.


I am jealous of your antenna combination, and believe you have outstanding results! However, I have a couple of take-aways:


1) If you were doing this from scratch, would you purchase two of the 91XG's and mount them in same fashion as identifed in your picture?


a) Stick with only one 91XG, due to windloading?


2) If I mount a pair, where would you recommend to get the hardware without paying an arm and a leg?


3) Do you feel that much is at stake to run 100 foot of the RG-6 Vs RG-11?


And the last question.


4) If mounting a pair, would you puchase an amp for the sole purchase of amping each antenna into the CM 7777 and then down. At present, I have the CM 0064 amp for the existing UHF (CM 4257) and VHF (CM 3610). Signal is mixed together on the tower.


Thanks,


Chad


----------



## AFBear

Any inputs on a good indoor OTA that someone has used as a HDTV antenna??


I'm getting a JVC Pro 1080P soon and would like to be able to access local HDTV (so my wife doesn't think I'm out of my mind on getting this unit) until I understand TWC's digital new (more $) tiers and decide whether to go digital cable or Dish.


Sounds like the Silver Sensor would do it, but has anyone used something else with good results? I live in SW Beavercreek.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AFBear* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Any inputs on a good indoor OTA that someone has used as a HDTV antenna??
> 
> 
> I'm getting a JVC Pro 1080P soon and would like to be able to access local HDTV (so my wife doesn't think I'm out of my mind on getting this unit) until I understand TWC's digital new (more $) tiers and decide whether to go digital cable or Dish.
> 
> 
> Sounds like the Silver Sensor would do it, but has anyone used something else with good results? I live in SW Beavercreek.



The JVC Pro 1080P series appears to be Digital Cable Ready (DCR), which means that it has a CableCARD slot for decrypting digital cable channels.


Adding the encrypted premium HD channels, as well as the other SD digital channels will require using either

1) a CableCard (does not support Navigator Guide and PPV/VOD) or 2) a digital HD-STB or 3) a digital HD-PVR.


However, for the price of Basic Cable, the QAM tuner in your set should be able to watch the unencrypted local HD channels without the extra cost of digital service.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *acrispin77* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do you mean to put the silicone grease on the connection and then cover with coax-seal?
> 
> 
> Or were you referring to putting the silicone on only if I use a weather boot?



You put the grease inside the connection and coax seal around the outside. I think RadioShack has a close out sale on coax seal but I couldn't find it at my local store.


----------



## arxaw

Many people on this forum (myself included) have had excellent results with the CM 7777 VHF/UHF preamp . It is very low noise, which is important for good digital reception. I currently use one connected to a Silver Sensor antenna in the attic to receive stations ~60 miles away.


Where I lived closer to town, I used a CM 7777 because a couple of stations then were very low power. The preamp never overloaded the full power stations. YMMV, of course, depending on the tuner and antenna you are using.


----------



## goldrich

Chad,


Great questions but without knowing more about your location, terrain, power/tower height of the stations you are trying to receive and the channels those stations represent, I'm not really sure how to accurately answer some of them. First, I have been happy with the results of the Triax and 91XG antennas (Yagi/Corner-Reflector design) for my location. If I were to do it over again, I'd probably still do it the same way with either the Triax Unix 100 or the Antennas Direct 91XG. These antennas are very directional, and the horizontal stacking makes them even more directional, so it helps me in my location to cancel or null the local/area stations to help me find the more distant stations (100+ miles) for DXing purposes. Are you trying to receive stations over 60 miles away for everyday viewing and/or for DXing purposes?


I would do another stack, too. There seems to be little windloading with these antennas. That has not been a factor for me in Central Indiana.


As for the hardware, I'd have to check on that. A DXing buddy designed, assembled and helped install my Triax stack.


BTW, my setup also includes an Antennacraft high-band VHF antenna (included in the picture) for a couple of local/area DTV stations between channels 7 and 13. Because one of these stations is 40 miles away, I boost the signal with a Motorola Signal Booster. Due to my proximity to my local stations, VHF preamps overload too much but this unit doesn't do that. It also works quite nicely with UHF antennas, too. I bought mine from Ebay.


I'm not sure whatelse to say at the moment. Maybe some others here can make some suggestions.


Steve


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sirchadwick* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Mr. Goldrich,
> 
> 
> First of all, I would like to compliment you for the plethora amount of information provided.
> 
> 
> The details of your experiments will help me make a better decision. As we both are aware, what we often see on the specifications things that do not apply to the real world, as it really boils down to our location and terrian.
> 
> 
> I am jealous of your antenna combination, and believe you have outstanding results! However, I have a couple of take-aways:
> 
> 
> 1) If you were doing this from scratch, would you purchase two of the 91XG's and mount them in same fashion as identifed in your picture?
> 
> 
> a) Stick with only one 91XG, due to windloading?
> 
> 
> 2) If I mount a pair, where would you recommend to get the hardware without paying an arm and a leg?
> 
> 
> 3) Do you feel that much is at stake to run 100 foot of the RG-6 Vs RG-11?
> 
> 
> And the last question.
> 
> 
> 4) If mounting a pair, would you puchase an amp for the sole purchase of amping each antenna into the CM 7777 and then down. At present, I have the CM 0064 amp for the existing UHF (CM 4257) and VHF (CM 3610). Signal is mixed together on the tower.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Chad




I have a few questions,before making any specific recommendations.


Is the 4257 a 6' parabolic? Do you know the specs for this antenna?

How old is this install? The 0064 has a single 300 ohm input.How are the antennas joined[before] the preamp? 300 ohm twinlead combiner? Is there a rotor for these antennas mounted inside the tower?


Now to the reception of what you are seeing now.I'd be more interested in knowing what the Detroit analogs look like individually.


Ch 20,38,50,56,62


Also,do you see any interference/intermod effects from the local Toledo stations?


The exact distance and azimuth headings from your location to the tower farms in Detroit and Toledo may be helpful also.


----------



## akron05

I live in Akron, OH, but my roommate is from Youngstown, OH, 50 miles east. We can recieve Youngstown DMA stations quite well, if we aim a rooftop antenna east. I always watch the Cleveland/Akron/Canton DMA stations but my roommate wants to get his Youngstown stations, mainly for news. I am buying an HD-ready TV w a combo DirecTV/HDTV tuner. I already plan to get a large fringe directional HDTV antenna (I'm < 20 mi from most of the local transmitters but in a crappy area). Instead of using an antenna rotator to be able to watch Youngstown stations (which are all UHF), could I just get a seperate antenna to mount on the tower to point to the Y-town transmitters, and then splice the two downleads together into the house, for seamless reception of both?


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sirchadwick* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also, I might replace the pre-amp with the Wineguard AP2275 for the gain improvement. However, this would require adding baluns on the antennas, so this could be a wash.



It's doubtful that more gain would help you. If I replaced the preamp, I would look for *less noise.* Check out the CM 777* series.

....jc


----------



## virus

Help needed. I have a 4221 and a 4228. For whatever reason, I have horrible reception of channel 9 out of DC on my roof no matter what way I face the 4228. While the 4228 was in the attic it had 90% signal and late at night I can get sporatic 80%, but normally it so sporatic I can't keep a signal. I put the 4221 in the attic and it's way too week on FOX, but channel 9 is again in the 90% range. I also have a CM7775 preamp on the 4228 on the roof. How can I combine these two antennas signals?


----------



## newsposter

Why would my channels be OK in the morning but not later in the day? I spent the past 2 mornings aiming in my attic since outside didn't seem to get the height I needed. I got 4 networks in OK then trying to get the last 2 (ch 42 and 54), got them to an acceptable 60s range. Around 3 this afternoon i checked and those 2 were unwatchable.


no amount of aiming at the same location would get those channels back.


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sirchadwick* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> 3) Do you feel that much is at stake to run 100 foot of the RG-6 Vs RG-11?
> 
> Chad



Chad,


RG-11 has two downsides for the average consumer. 1st, most RG-11 sold locally is not quad shielded cable. In fact, you are lucky if you can find one that has a foil shield in addition to the 60% braid. We use RG-11 for the medium length satellite runs at our station (>100' and


----------



## AntAltMike

RG-11 is a waste of money for a 100' run of preamplified signal. It saves a dB or two at 700Mz, but the signal has already been boosted well above the receiver's input threshold.


I don't think anyone is actually making RG-11 connectors that use the center conductor for the pin. I think that any you might buy now will be "new, old-stock", as they will be sitting on shelves forever.


A Tru-Spec RG-11 crimping tool costs about $35, or you can use an RG 6 tool and do an ugly job. If you use a Tru-Spec tool, shim the crimper surfaces with a few layers of paper because the die is too large for most crimp connectors.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Why would my channels be OK in the morning but not later in the day?



Lemme guess, you are 30 or more miles from the transmitter? If so, I would guess that it's an atmospheric/tropospheric situation.

....jc


----------



## SJKurtzke

Hi, I was wondering if the Winegard GS-2000 is a good antenna for my location. It's the one TitanTV recommends, with most stations being in the "excellent" (btw, what do they define as "excellent", like no probelms with picture?) range, except for WDCA-DT, which appears in the "good" range.


AntennaWeb recommends a:

red grade antenna for ABC, NBC, CBS, and FOX

a blue for PBS and The WB,

and a Violet for UPN (which is low-power).


I live about 20 miles from most of the towers


They're all within 16 degrees of each other.


The channels I want all have a frequency of 27-51


Thank you!


----------



## virus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sirchadwick* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Mr. Anitbodies, (Virus)
> 
> 
> My first response would be to purchase an antenna for the VHF band, as the 4221 and 4228 are for UHF channels. They are tuned for these channels.
> 
> 
> As for combining these signals, I would recommend NOT too. If you want to improve the gain, I would purchase an additonal 4228 and stack them. However, this will improve the UHF channels, while your main objective is Channel 9.
> 
> 
> On another note, if you really want to capture Channel 9, I would purchase the Blonder Tongue Antenna that is pre-cut to this frequency. This will provide the best gain at this channel.
> 
> http://www.starkelectronic.com/btb1-1.htm
> 
> 
> Good Luck,
> 
> 
> Chad



Sorry, I didn't mean channel 9, CBS is channel 9 in DC. It's UHF counterpart is channel 34.


----------



## beltway boy

I purchased a Directv HD-DVR.


In need to purchase an off air HD antenna to receive local channels in HD.


Any advice on where to buy it, which brand/model, and if I should have it installed professionally would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> RG-11 is a waste of money for a 100' run of preamplified signal. It saves a dB or two at 700Mz, but the signal has already been boosted well above the receiver's input threshold.
> 
> 
> I don't think anyone is actually making RG-11 connectors that use the center conductor for the pin. I think that any you might buy now will be "new, old-stock", as they will be sitting on shelves forever.
> 
> 
> A Tru-Spec RG-11 crimping tool costs about $35, or you can use an RG 6 tool and do an ugly job. If you use a Tru-Spec tool, shim the crimper surfaces with a few layers of paper because the die is too large for most crimp connectors.



I have about a 125 ft. run for which I used RG-11 quad shield. I'm sure you're right in that it wouldn't make a difference for most, but for me a few db here and there matters. It obviously can matter more if you plan to leave part or all of the signal unamplified.


I haven't seen the connector that uses the rg11 center conductor either. With the connector that downsizes it, there's probably around .2db loss so it's really best to only use it for the single long run between grounding block and first indoor connection and use rg6 for the rest of the connections.


It's also large, stiff, and somewhat difficult to work with.


----------



## virus

If you want to purchase the equiptment yourself either www.warrenelectronics.com or www.solidsignal.com are fantastic sights. warren is generally a little cheaper, but both have great customer service and ship things fast.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Lemme guess, you are 30 or more miles from the transmitter? If so, I would guess that it's an atmospheric/tropospheric situation.
> 
> ....jc



So can you change the atmosphere for me?











Yes 40 miles and was thrilled to get all the channels. Now I guess I"m forced to hire someone to do a chimney mount (no guarantee that will be ok though) or else spend a few more hours in the attic hoping to get a more solid lock.


One thing I didn't say is that I got a firm 71 on the meter for 3 of the channels with only slight blips a few higher even when the other channels took a dive. This is just such a pain.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sirchadwick* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Team,
> 
> 
> First of, thanks for all of your feeback with your responses. I made a mistake with some information on the amp.
> 
> 
> I have the *CM 0264C* preamp which has two 300 ohm inputs. One from the CM 3610 (VHF) and the other CM 4257 (UHF). The bottom VHF antenna is 48 feet above the ground, while the UHF is 53 feet. The rotator is mounted inside the Rohn 20 tower. Approximately 80 feet of RG-6 cable is used inbetween the preamp and power supply. After the power supply, 50 feet of additional RG-6 is ran to the television. The reason for the break in the line, is the distribution center in the basement, in case I want to split the signal to other televisions. At present, no splitters are used in the system, thus not to allow futher degragation of the signal.
> 
> 
> The 4257 is not a parabolic. I have requested the gain charts from CM, as they are not posted on their web as they are retired models. When I get this information, I will post it.
> 
> 
> The Toledo stations will not block or hinder the Detroit stations as they are on the other side of town, and I do not have to penetrate thru them.
> 
> 
> For a baseline, I am able to view 38, 56, and 62 with the antenna frozen. No issues with interference/intermod effects from the local Toledo stations. During my testing the rotor FAILED, and now I am stuck a couple degrees off. What a pain, especially this time of the year.
> 
> 
> The Detroit stations average from 63.71 miles to 76.95 miles. At present, I can view the analog station 38, which is 76.95 miles away and viewing is OK. Digitally, it is NOT there. I am unable to view ANY Detroit station in HD, maybe because I cannot fine time the antenna exactly, or not enought signal. However, back to channel 38, it is viewable in the analog domain, not in digital.
> 
> 
> Helpful facts:
> 
> Channel 38.2 - Broadcast on Channel 39
> 
> Height 171m
> 
> Power 1,00Kw
> 
> 76.95 Miles
> 
> 30 Degrees
> 
> 
> Channel 7.2 - Broadcast on 41
> 
> Height 295m
> 
> Power 770Kw
> 
> Distance 63.81
> 
> 18 Degrees
> 
> 
> Channel 2.2 - Broadcast on 58
> 
> Height 274 Kw
> 
> Power 1,000Kw
> 
> Distance 63.81 Miles
> 
> 20 Degrees
> 
> 
> The antenna install was about 15 years ago, and they look in excellent condition. No obvious corrosion, or broken elements. Only issue identifed, is that the rotator just froze up and is preventing rotation of the antennas. (Not good!)
> 
> 
> The first job is to replace the rotator. Then, I will verify the signals and make a decision if I will purchase the 91XG to replace the existing CM 4257. I do not think the age of the antenna will hinder the performace as some people think.
> 
> 
> Ideas? Do you really think the age will hinder the performance?
> 
> 
> Also, I might replace the pre-amp with the Wineguard AP2275 for the gain improvement. However, this would require adding baluns on the antennas, so this could be a wash.
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...=&PROD=SAP8275
> 
> 
> More to follow.




Google brought this up on the 4257.Likely a precursor to the 4248 with similar specs.


Edit: Upon closer scrutiny of that pic of the 4257,it has 5 or 6 more director bays than the 4248.This was the largest corner reflector made by Channel Master.It probably has a little more gain on the upper channels (60 and above) which may have been needed years ago.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache...hl=en&ie=UTF-8 


Provided everything with this 15 yr old install is working as good as it did when new,I doubt it will help that much to change to a different UHF antenna-unless you go all-out(see below post).However,with 15 yrs on the twinlead and connection points,there's a chance it's not performing as well as it did when new.Also,if the coax from the preamp is that old,it may need to be changed out too.


You didn't mention reception on ch20 and 50.I suspect local DT-19 and DT-49 are bleeding over snow on these channels.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have about a 125 ft. run for which I used RG-11 quad shield. I'm sure you're right in that it wouldn't make a difference for most, but for me a few db here and there matters. It obviously can matter more if you plan to leave part or all of the signal unamplified.



I think the argument goes that the amplification at the source (i.e. a preamp) boosts the signal beyond what line loss would be (and then some) of RG-6, so using RG-11 is overkill because the dB you save by using it are not "real" dB of antenna performance, but rather the "extra" gain of the amplifier.


So if you don't use an amplifier, RG-11 may save you some real signal. But if you use a preamp, you'd need a very, very long run before the loss of RG-6 would come into play.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Provided everything with this 15 yr old install is working as good as it did when new,I doubt it will help that much to change to a different UHF antenna.



Hi Greg. I completely agree with you about the antenna. Almost 30 years ago I helped a friend install a Channel Master 6-ft. parabolic antenna and he's still using it. His reception of stations 65-85 miles away is still as good as it was then. Over the years he has replaced the rotor and the preamp, but I believe that is it.


Steve


----------



## colts2005

when did the fox affiliate go to full power? I have gotten it twice with a antennae with pre-amp someone gave me. It's really nothing more then rabbit ears--I have thought about an outdoor antennae but at this point it would only be for that fox station unless I could get an ABC station..


I get nbc locally hi def with analog which is the only reason I uses the indoor antennae. Is anyone in topeka getting anything from ABC hi def?


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *goldrich* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi Greg. I completely agree with you about the antenna. Almost 30 years ago I helped a friend install a Channel Master 6-ft. parabolic antenna and he's still using it. His reception of stations 65-85 miles away is still as good as it was then. Over the years he has replaced the rotor and the preamp, but I believe that is it.



Hi Steve,

I think this tall tower and antenna setup of Chad's was likely put in the air to receive out of market(Detroit?) stations,hence the 4257 for CBS-62?


A nice contemporary setup for that tower now and in the future would be a Band A for a possible WB and UPN DT out of Detroit(14 and 21),a Group B for all the rest and a Triax A/B combiner to combine the two.Then under those one of my PSP 1922's for VHF 7-13.Total windload would be less than 6sq.ft. so the tower should hold up,and a CM rotor would be good enough to turn it all.


Greg B


----------



## JMorello

I was wondering if anyone here can recommend a good indoor HDTV antenna for a city area with lots of buildings. I am kind of stuck because I am on the 2nd floor and my landlord will not let me put an out door antenna on this 6 story roof. I would appreciate any information. Thanks.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think the argument goes that the amplification at the source (i.e. a preamp) boosts the signal beyond what line loss would be (and then some) of RG-6, so using RG-11 is overkill because the dB you save by using it are not "real" dB of antenna performance, but rather the "extra" gain of the amplifier.
> 
> 
> So if you don't use an amplifier, RG-11 may save you some real signal. But if you use a preamp, you'd need a very, very long run before the loss of RG-6 would come into play.




I believe it can still make a difference. Small, but a difference nontheless. My total run is around 150 ft with about 125 ft RG 11.

See http://www.geocities.com/toddemslie/UHF-TV-DX.html 

My preamps are 20 db gain .4 db NF and I use a 15 db gain 2db NF in-line amp right before the receiver.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My preamps are 20 db gain .4 db NF...



How much did you pay? The Research website lacks a price.


I wonder how much difference I'd see if I replaced my 2.7dB NF Winegard preamp...


----------



## ctdish

Sregener,

I got the Reasearch preamp last summer for $150 with shipping. I used in place of an AP 4700. It made a noticeable improvement with signal qualities going up from 5 to 15 points on weak stations. Also a snowy analog station became much less snowy. John


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How much did you pay? The Research website lacks a price.
> 
> 
> I wonder how much difference I'd see if I replaced my 2.7dB NF Winegard preamp...




Unless they have lowered their prices recently,this was the pricing last summer when I purchased one.


9250...75gbp...LNA

9251...43gbp...recommended power supply

9252...20gbp...weatherproof case

shipping...25gbp


If you make your own weatherproof case,at current conversion rates the cost is $253 for the LNA and power supply shipped.


This is a very "clean" preamp which sets the system noise floor at a nice low level.With very weak distant signals I also noticed that additional amplification could be used for further improvements on certain channels.


Be forewarned,these types of preamps are subject to failure caused by voltage spike transients.A very good surge protector would be in order(I'm talking from first-hand experience).


----------



## ctdish

When I purchased mine I only got the 9250. I did not realize that they had the power supply but at that price I would still not have bought it from them. I addapted an old Channel Master unit that feed AC to a preamp by adding rectifier diodes, caps, and a 7812 voltage regulator. The preamp has been running a few months now with no problems. Also it is mounted in an upside down coffee can. John


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sirchadwick* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, after doing all the research it looks like the gain (on paper) achieved with replacing the CM 4257 with a new 91XG will be at best 3.10dB.
> 
> 
> Any feedback, and would this be noticable?



By rule, the dB scale is logarithmic, and 3.0dB is equal to exactly double. Whether you would notice an improvement or not depends entirely on whether any of your signals are within 3.0dB of coming in. If, for instance, you need a 20dB improvement, a 3.0dB one isn't going to make a dent. If you only need 2.0dB, though, the 3.0dB would be significant.


Without a dBmv meter, though, it's hard to guess how close you are, or even if signal level is your biggest issue (for which you'd need a spectrum analyzer.)


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How much did you pay? The Research website lacks a price.
> 
> 
> I wonder how much difference I'd see if I replaced my 2.7dB NF Winegard preamp...



Greg quoted the prices. That's what I paid if I remember correctly. I think the 9248 is still available, too, and should be slightly cheaper or comparable in price to the 9250. I have the 9248 which I use for *high band vhf* with the CM power supply that comes with the 7777. It will operate anywhere between +7.5 to +30 V DC . The 9248 is designed as a *uhf* amp but it performed less well for uhf than the 7777 for me. You must use an FM trap (at least where I am) to get it to work in this application. I use the high side of a high/lo combiner.


I use the 9250 with the RC power supply for UHF. They recommend their PS due to "decreased intermod distortion at higher current levels" for the 9250 if I recall.

A front-end filter is also necessary for the 9250. A uhf/vhf diplexer works well for me.


My reception was slightly better overall for uhf compared to the 7777 using the 9250. An in-line amp then improved things a little more (noticeable decrease in snow on analogs but with no major change in digital locks). In turn, the Channel Vision CVT15 line amp is slightly better in this application than the CM 3042 line amp was. I didn't find the 3042 line amp was any help when using the 7777 with it's higher gain.


Performance is significantly better for high vhf using the 9248. DT 13 would barely even lock for me with the 7777 but now I have a stable lock probably 75 percent of the time.


As you probably already know, whether the difference would be significant for you is difficult to say; it just depends on how marginal things are for you.


As Greg said, if you fork out the bucks be sure to protect your investment with a surge protector and you'll either need the weatherproof case from RC or to build/purchase one of your own. I don't think these amps are quite as hardy as a good CM or Winegard would be. I think of them more like SETI equipment which could fail if you breathe on them too hard.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As you probably already know, whether the difference would be significant for you is difficult to say; it just depends on how marginal things are for you.



Oh, things are marginal for me, sometimes, on some channels.


It seems that the colder it gets, the better my desired channels get. We just had a cold snap where daytime highs didn't reach 10, and I was getting solid locks on distant stations during the day. In the evenings, things were really smoking.


Then it warmed up and we're near 30 now, and things are back to "normal" where few if any of them come in. In the summer, things get dramatically worse during daylight hours, and I'm lucky to get stable locks at night.


It seems that I'm experiencing the inverse of Bob Chase's observation: when dewpoints drop (as dewpoints are rarely above actual temperatures) my reception improves, and when dewpoints soar, my reception dies.


I suspect that I could invest in a 0.0dB NF preamp and I'd still have reception problems. I'm also not a TV addict, so I think I'll pass on the $250-$300 preamplifier (+ installation since I'm deathly afraid of heights, and my 54' tower qualifies.)


----------



## aovermy001




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JMorello* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was wondering if anyone here can recommend a good indoor HDTV antenna for a city area with lots of buildings. I am kind of stuck because I am on the 2nd floor and my landlord will not let me put an out door antenna on this 6 story roof. I would appreciate any information. Thanks.



The silver sensor is good if all you want is UHF channels. I was using one very successfully. Since I needed a VHF-lo channel (curse you WBBM-DT) I went with a stealthtenna on a tripod which sits in my bedroom. It works surprisingly well for me with no noticeable dropouts. As with all things antennae, however, YMMV.


----------



## goldrich

Good luck, Chad. I hope you do see some improvement in signal strength. And, yes, please let us know how things go after it's installed.


Steve


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sirchadwick* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would like to thank all of those who help contribute to my antenna purchase. Below is a listing of new products purchased:
> 
> 
> Antenna's Direct 91XG
> 
> Channel Master 7777
> 
> Channel Master 9521A
> 
> 
> Replacing:
> 
> 
> Channel Master 9515 Rotor
> 
> Channel Master 4527 Yagi
> 
> Channel Master 0264 Pre-Amp
> 
> 
> Spent more than I wanted to. However, when trying to get fringe signals it may have some impact with upgrading to the NEW Titan 7777 Pre-amp. As for the antenna replacement, this is a big unknown if there will be an improvement or not.
> 
> 
> I will post my findings, when all is intalled!
> 
> 
> Chad



I would be interested in the 0264 and the 9515 when you get them down.Maybe the 4257 if you can make it small enough to UPS.Contact me thru my website or pm me here.
http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/DXPHOTOS/ 


Any way to post a pic of your tower?


Are you going to climb it?


I hope you see some substantial improvements.


Greg B


----------



## firemantom26

So folks, which is the best antenna 91XG or 4228


----------



## Sirchadwick

FYI


Solid Signal has several more CM 7777 pre-amps for $35, as open-box. I was going to purchase one of these, but I did not want to take a chance on getting a defective one, so I ordered a "virgin" model.


Solid Signal does an excellent job!


----------



## sebenste




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *firemantom26* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So folks, which is the best antenna 91XG or 4228



That's an easy question. The answer, however, isn't.










As others have pointed out, the 4228 gets best reception from channels 20-48

or so. I generally trust an engineer measurement over anything I or anyone else does, and the KHOU Chief Engineer came out with a brilliant antenna comparison

a while ago. Gosh, I wish I could see that link again. In his test, pointing at the same tower on a pole, the CM 4228 beat out the XG-91, overall. Suprisingly, however, he found that the CM 4248 yagi antenna beat 'em all, overall.


It seems that the 4228 does better than all of them in attics. I have one; in a river valley 60 miles from the towers, I can lock a station that's only running

15.1 kw!


If you have it outside and you tend to get high wind and have it on a rotor, I'd go with the XG-91. But I'm very happy with my 4228. I say that both are excellent

antennas, and my opinion of saying that the 4228 gives better reception is

based on the engineering study from Bob Chase alone, not from manufacturer

claims or my reception. With the reception sregener gets though, it's obvious the XG-91 is no slouch.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...the KHOU Chief Engineer came out with a brilliant antenna comparison a while ago. Gosh, I wish I could see that link again. In his test, pointing at the same tower on a pole, the CM 4228 beat out the XG-91, overall. Suprisingly, however, he found that the CM 4248 yagi antenna beat 'em all, overall.
> 
> 
> ...But I'm very happy with my 4228. I say that both are excellent
> 
> antennas, and my opinion of saying that the 4228 gives better reception is
> 
> based on the engineering study from Bob Chase alone, not from manufacturer
> 
> claims or my reception. With the reception sregener gets though, it's obvious the XG-91 is no slouch.



Here's the link: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...se#post6245872 


I'd be hesitant to extrapolate from a single test done at a single location. Mr. Chase had stated he planned to do further tests from more distant locations, but I suspect time is a valuable commodity for him and it may take a while before we get any more results.


At 9-10 miles, I would expect a lower-gain antenna to outperform a higher gain one, especially for measured signal strength. With a lot of reflections available, the less directional the antenna, the more of these the antenna will accept. For long-distance reception, the 4248 is far removed from the top tier antennas.


For true comparative purposes, this link is probably the most definitive, since the comparison is not based on temporary, "real-world" situations, but computer modeling that is repeatable over time: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


As others have pointed out, a steep change in performance within a channel is detrimental to reception, so the 4228 is not so great below channel 20 (item A on the chart) while the 91XG has a nice, steady line of improvement (item T.) It appears that below channel 22, the 4248 is actually the best of the bunch, but beyond that point, the other antennas begin to separate.


I think the stacked bowtie design is wonderful for people who need high gain and a relatively wide angle of acceptance. This is almost always the case in attics. I think the yagi/corner reflector hybrid is the best for people who need high gain and strong directivity (aka long-distance, over-the-horizon, tropospheric scatter) and can place their antenna outdoors.


----------



## Sirchadwick

Hmm.. This looks just like the 91XG.

 

225_142502_dc4591_081203_790501450.pdf 216.4306640625k . file

 

HD4Free.com Menu Page.pdf 90.8720703125k . file


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sirchadwick* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hmm.. This looks just like the 91XG.



The JBX21WB has a dramatically different rear deflector. I'd put good money on the 91XG having a better corner reflector. The connecting hardware on the Funke is different - the 91XG has a curved support beam instead of a square-edged one. Looking at the low-rez picture I don't see any other significant differences.


It's no secret that AntennasDirect doesn't make all of their antennas - but they do provide good designs at great prices to the US domestic market. Try buying a JBX21WB or the Funke in the US for under $100 shipped.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here's the link: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...se#post6245872
> 
> 
> I'd be hesitant to extrapolate from a single test done at a single location. Mr. Chase had stated he planned to do further tests from more distant locations, but I suspect time is a valuable commodity for him and it may take a while before we get any more results.
> 
> 
> At 9-10 miles, I would expect a lower-gain antenna to outperform a higher gain one, especially for measured signal strength. With a lot of reflections available, the less directional the antenna, the more of these the antenna will accept. For long-distance reception, the 4248 is far removed from the top tier antennas.
> 
> 
> For true comparative purposes, this link is probably the most definitive, since the comparison is not based on temporary, "real-world" situations, but computer modeling that is repeatable over time: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html



In the engineering world I live in, the simulation is the starting point, not the end result. The measurements taken by Bob Chase with a $10,000 (refurbished price) spectrum analyzer should not be discounted. They are telling us something that exists in the real world (possibly that the 4248 has a much better match to 75 ohms than the 4228 or 91XG).


Also, an estimate of multipath can be made by examining the "flatness" of the channel response in the plots published by Bob. The 4248 looks to be as flat as the 4228, so your assertion that multipath is making the 4248 outperform seems invalid.


Ron


----------



## Sirchadwick

With all of these discussions on these antennas, I really warrant if I am making the correct decision with taking down a CM 4257 to replace it with the 91XG, that is almost 2 feet smaller, just because it is reflecting a higher gain on paper. Also, changing out the 0264 pre-amp for the new Titan 7777. Again, this could be a lost cause and perhaps throwing money into the wind.


CM 4257 Gain listed from our friends at Channel Master:

Channel Gain (This gain is in dB)

14 - 10.5

19 - 11.0

27 - 11.5

35 - 11.6

43 - 12.2

52 - 13.0

60 - 13.8

91XG Gain from Antenna's Direct
Channel Gain (This gain is in dBi)

14 - 11.6

20 - 12.8

30 - 14.2

40 - 14.8

50 - 15.8

55 - 16.7

60 - 16.4

65 - 16.2

Old Pre-Amp 0264

VHF Gain - 16 Noise 3.0

UHF Gain - 23 Noise 2.2

New Amp - CM 7777

VHF - Gain - 23 Noise 2.8

UHF - Gain - 26 Noise 2.0


Analyzing the spec. sheets reveals that both of these companies are recording the gain in differenct values (dBi & dB). After this comparison, you will see that the 4257 in fact has the edge on the 91XG.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sirchadwick* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> With all of these discussions on these antennas, I really warrant if I am making the correct decision with taking down a CM 4257 to replace it with the 91XG, that is almost 2 feet smaller.
> 
> 
> I hope I am putting my time and energy into a decent antenna design and not something that is just "smoke and mirrors."



I hate to say this, *no I don't*, all of the analyzation in the world will not overcome a bad location. And, it's possible that your 4257 is mounted in a bad location. Even your 4257 moved a bit may provide you with the signals you desire.


As far as I'm concerned, a good location beats out a superior antenna, hands down.

....jc


----------



## Thomas Choong

Is the Radio Shack 15-1868 indoor antenna (sorry, can't post links yet) antenna comparible to the RCA ANT145 recommended earlier in the thread? The dipoles on the RCA were sprayed or something, so I get black stuff on my hands every time I touch them.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In the engineering world I live in, the simulation is the starting point, not the end result. The measurements taken by Bob Chase with a $10,000 (refurbished price) spectrum analyzer should not be discounted. They are telling us something that exists in the real world (possibly that the 4248 has a much better match to 75 ohms than the 4228 or 91XG).
> 
> 
> Also, an estimate of multipath can be made by examining the "flatness" of the channel response in the plots published by Bob. The 4248 looks to be as flat as the 4228, so your assertion that multipath is making the 4248 outperform seems invalid.
> 
> 
> Ron



When the relative lag between paths in a multipath situation is short which is the case for nearby reflections like ground bounce the result is that the response can be quite flat over a channel with the overall gain either increased or decreased by the path interactions. Real world engineering antenna measurements can be greatly affected by this multipath. For that reason the ARRL only accepts advertising with real world tests if the tests are performed on a test range (expensive) or simulated free field results after they have verified the model. [ edited with correction that ARRL does allow range test results per the link provided by ctdish ].


I agree that simulation models do need to be verified with real world measurements though. To do this verification for antennas it is necessary to control and account for such things as ground bounce. This is easiest to do when performing the real world test at a test range where all the relevant geometry can be controlled. The basic models for standard antenna types like multibay dipoles, Yaggis, and log periodics have already been verified. These antennas are not too difficult to model for raw free field gain and there are some checks that can be performed like verifying the average raw gain to catch the most common errors. The modelling of impedance match is much more difficult than raw gain and so it requires a real world check of each detailed model.


Since Bob Chase did not control for ground bounce effects his results should be treated as just one sample of real world results that do not necessarily represent the typical relative performance of the antennas that he measured. Note that not only might the relative lag of the ground bounce have changed between antennas if the height of the antenna phase centers (not mounting points) were not carefully matched; but that since the effective vertical aperture of the various antennas is different the amount of ground bounce attenuation by the vertical beampattern will vary between antennas anyway.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In the engineering world I live in, the simulation is the starting point, not the end result. The measurements taken by Bob Chase with a $10,000 (refurbished price) spectrum analyzer should not be discounted. They are telling us something that exists in the real world (possibly that the 4248 has a much better match to 75 ohms than the 4228 or 91XG).
> 
> 
> Also, an estimate of multipath can be made by examining the "flatness" of the channel response in the plots published by Bob. The 4248 looks to be as flat as the 4228, so your assertion that multipath is making the 4248 outperform seems invalid.



The problem, as you are well aware, is that reception can change, second-to-second and minute-to-minute in the real world. And since it is physically impossible for two objects to occupy the same space at the same time, real-world tests cause some serious problems when it comes to verification and repeatability. All we can really say from a real-world test is that, at one location, at one point in time, antenna A was inferior to antenna B's results measured a few minutes later. Even if you could come up with a general rule that antenna B outperformed antenna A in 20 locations, it wouldn't prove that antenna B wouldn't be better in hypothetical point 21. It is my assertion that real-world testing, while interesting, is not sufficient to establish the superiority of one antenna over another. If it were, the number of people (including myself) who have found the 4248 inferior should outweigh one test at one location, no matter how expensive the equipment used to do the test.


I'm not 100% certain, but I think at 8-9 miles, you would still be dramatically below the plane of the broadcasting antenna's aim (the shadow effect) and the greater acceptance angle vertically of the 4248 would come into play. I have heard of people at that distance getting better reception using an indoor bowtie than their rooftop antenna for just this reason.


As for multipath, instantaneous multipath (say, from a building 20-30 feet away) would not necessarily be visible on a spectrum analyzer, yet would still impact performance.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The problem, as you are well aware, is that reception can change, second-to-second and minute-to-minute in the real world. And since it is physically impossible for two objects to occupy the same space at the same time, real-world tests cause some serious problems when it comes to verification and repeatability.



This is a good point that I missed in my reply.


----------



## aovermy001




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Thomas Choong* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is the Radio Shack 15-1868 indoor antenna (sorry, can't post links yet) antenna comparible to the RCA ANT145 recommended earlier in the thread? The dipoles on the RCA were sprayed or something, so I get black stuff on my hands every time I touch them.



If you wipe them with a wet one or alcohol swab, does it help the situation? The antennas aren't identical, the 1868 comes with a clunky looking plastic loop instead of a metallic looking loop but since loops seem to be loops, it should be OK. The Radio Shack site unhelpfully doesn't seem to mention the length of the dipoles (longer the better IMHO). There is a person here recommending the RS model.


I suppose you could buy it and if it's not to your satisfaction return it.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *aovermy001* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The Radio Shack site unhelpfully doesn't seem to mention the length of the dipoles (longer the better IMHO).



Not so. See here: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/R...s.html#Getting


----------



## aovermy001

But if you want channel 2 with max gain, you need 109" of rabbit ears which is why I said the longer the better as most settop antennae on the market now come with 38" ears (for a 76" dipole). That's why I said longer the better. But you're correct, if you just want channel 6 and up, shorter will work fine.


----------



## ctdish

Originally Posted by dr1394


"In the engineering world I live in, the simulation is the starting point, not the end result. The measurements taken by Bob Chase with a $10,000 (refurbished price) spectrum analyzer should not be discounted. They are telling us something that exists in the real world (possibly that the 4248 has a much better match to 75 ohms than the 4228 or 91XG).


Also, an estimate of multipath can be made by examining the "flatness" of the channel response in the plots published by Bob. The 4248 looks to be as flat as the 4228, so your assertion that multipath is making the 4248 outperform seems invalid. "


I am inclined to agree with dr1394 that a measurement is worth more than a simulation is. The ARRL does allow properly determined range measurements of antenna gain. See: http://www.arrl.org/ads/antenna/ 

My look at the measurements when looked at for SNR show the the 4228 to be the clear winner for the lower UHF channels and it, the 4248 and 91x all very similar for higher UHF channels.

The change in noise level for different antennas suprises me, since the noise temp of the measureing system is much higher than the atmospheric noise picked up by the antennas. So I wonder if it might be a measurement artifact. John


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sirchadwick* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> FYI
> 
> 
> Solid Signal has several more CM 7777 pre-amps for $35, as open-box. I was going to purchase one of these, but I did not want to take a chance on getting a defective one, so I ordered a "virgin" model.



I received my open-box 7777 and it looks fine (haven't hooked it up yet







). Besides, if you have problems with an open-box item, they should take care of it, since it's supposed to be like new. I wouldn't even know it WAS "open-box." The box wasn't taped or anything, but I don't know that new ones are either.


Does anyone know what hardware the 7777 is supposed to come with? In this photo on Solid Signal , I noticed there are 4 nuts and lock washers (mine came with 2) and 2 machine screws/bolts in addition to the 2 screws I got -- like an alternate mount for the power supply. Just wondering, I have all I need. Also in that picture, there is a plastic cover thing on the separate VHF input, which I don't have either. Seems good if you're not using the 2nd input.



Finally, I was wondering about the 3 included F-connectors (also in photo)... are they supposed to be crimped?? The ferrule part that goes outside the cable isn't as long my Radio Shack ones... not much crimp area. The instructions just say "attach," so maybe they're supposed to be removable? I figured one of you guys would know.












BTW, I will post about my 91XG results after I have it all completely finished, etc.


----------



## afsheen

Could anyone help me with following questions?



Is getting too much digital singal strength a bad thing?

What are some of the symptoms of very strong digital signals?

What can be done with stations that multicast?


I was told I should install an attenuator and connect it to my OTA antenna.


Thanks


----------



## greywolf

Everything it the picture is supposed to be included as well as the plastic hood. The bolts are for an alternative non-mast mounting for the preamp, not the power supply. The power supply screws are thinner. The F-conns are the fairly worthless crimp type that are meant for a stamped steel crimper. Use the better ones you have.


----------



## nathill




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afsheen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Could anyone help me with following questions?
> 
> 
> 
> Is getting too much digital singal strength a bad thing?
> 
> What are some of the symptoms of very strong digital signals?
> 
> What can be done with stations that multicast?
> 
> 
> I was told I should install an attenuator and connect it to my OTA antenna.
> 
> 
> Thanks



I am not an expert.

But I am not afraid to offer opinions .

You can indeed overamplify digital signals. My intuition is that overamplification isn't as much of a problem as the fact that when you amplify you are also amplifying noise, which causes problems.

When I overamplify, I get what looks like a weak signal, lots of blocking up, etc.

I would defer to experts in this forum, but I'm not sure a OTA signal can be too strong in its unamplified form. I think troubles come when you add noisy amplifiers to a marginal signal.

I don't think multicasting has anything to do with the problem.

If you don't have an amp in the process, I find it hard to believe that you would need an attenuator unless multipath is the actual problem.

Multipath is a whole different animal from excess signal, and I'll bet it is far more often a problem in receiving digital signals than is too strong a signal.


----------



## rwantennasat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sirchadwick* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> With all of these discussions on these antennas, I really warrant if I am making the correct decision with taking down a CM 4257 to replace it with the 91XG, that is almost 2 feet smaller, just because it is reflecting a higher gain on paper. Also, changing out the 0264 pre-amp for the new Titan 7777. Again, this could be a lost cause and perhaps throwing money into the wind.
> 
> 
> CM 4257 Gain listed from our friends at Channel Master:
> 
> Channel Gain
> 
> 14 - 10.5
> 
> 19 - 11.0
> 
> 27 - 11.5
> 
> 35 - 11.6
> 
> 43 - 12.2
> 
> 52 - 13.0
> 
> 60 - 13.8
> 
> 91XG Gain from Antenna's Direct
> Channel Gain
> 
> 14 - 11.6
> 
> 20 - 12.8
> 
> 30 - 14.2
> 
> 40 - 14.8
> 
> 50 - 15.8
> 
> 55 - 16.7
> 
> 60 - 16.4
> 
> 65 - 16.2
> 
> Old Pre-Amp 0264
> 
> VHF Gain - 16 Noise 3.0
> 
> UHF Gain - 23 Noise 2.2
> 
> New Amp - CM 7777
> 
> VHF - Gain - 23 Noise 2.8
> 
> UHF - Gain - 26 Noise 2.0
> 
> 
> I hope I am putting my time and energy into a decent antenna design and not something that is just "smoke and mirrors."
> 
> 
> I see a lot of publicity on this antenna from various members on this forum. Oftentimes, companies manipulate the dBi values to their advantage. I see they list the F/B ratio, however, it is not identifying the channel at which this value was recorded.
> 
> 
> Perhaps, I am just trying to split atoms on this whole issue, and may not even warrant the cost of these new toys.
> 
> 
> Hopefully, I am not beating a dead horse. I think there are other people on this forum that are also curious if we would "really" see any difference in real world applications with this upgrade.



Well after reading all the talk on this guys antenna system And what he decided to change to im quite suprised. I've been in antenna and satellite since 1982 and I have sold all Brands of antennas Winegard Ch.Master Delhi Antennacraft Blonder Tongue Kay Townes -Lance etc. The 4257 that you had is a super antenna. It was the largest Diamond Quantum uhf antenna ever built. I think you'll be slightly dissapointed seeing the constrruction of the 91xg. I had Antennas Direct Send me a 91Xg To rate its quality. The shipped one to me for free and i just put it together. I must admit Im not impressed with its construction! It uses a flimsy 1/2" aluminum tubing design for the boom? Then instead of having one nice length of boom ,or at most 2 I had 3 small pieces to assemble. The way it assembles i can see it would probably not survive the ice storms we get here to long. I can see the end of the antenna drooping already.

The entire assembly just seems cheap. I know they are trying to make it easier to ship by doing this but this is a joke! The mast mounting clamps are very odd in that it only supports the lower boom? and not upper support? The reflector grids look nice but again its assembly to the boom is a joke? It looks to me like a cheaply built item from hong kong! I cannot rate its performance yet because we are having heavy snow here and i need to get it up in the air. I honestly think it might perform similar to a winegard prostar uhf yagi, They both use a folded dipole feed. It might be as good as a 9022 But i doubt it will be as good as a 9032. And the construction of a winegard prostar yagi blows it away. Not to mention it takes you a half hour to assemble and the winegards take 5 miniutes.

I cant see where they can come up with the prices they want for these. You can buy a winegard 9022 or 9032 for 75.00 or less depending on model. I will report back to all of you on performance. From The western N.Y. area A.S.A.P.

B.T.W. Those of you who have been running the Winegard HD platinum antennas like the 8200 and the 9095 9085 uhf yagis. These antennas use a log periodic type of feed VS the prostar UHF yagis that use the Tetrapole folded dipole design. I have found over 30 years that the folded dipole feed on a cor ref yagi seems to perform better. I have spec sheets on almost any antenna built if you need to see them. I serve the allegheny mountain region here and i have had some really hard to receive areas. The 3 antennas that worked best were the CM Parabolics #1 The winegard prostar YAgi #2 and the Ch.Master 4228 8 bay #3. This was in a side by side using a winegard ap 4800 preamp. Now every situation is different. I find a yagi works better in congested areas and where you want the most signal and dont mind a rotor turning now and then. The 4 +* bay antennas work better in a wider view less turning. but also in a more open area. The best preamps ive found are the winegards. They seem to resist lightning better. They have very little noise and offer numerous models to satisfy the overloading and ranges of most reception. Channel masters amps never turned me on. HERE's Why Inthat same poor location we tried to pull uhf stations out of Grand Island. N/W of buffalo and apx 60 miles thu the hills from our location. Even the Super titan C.M. could just barely give us a usable signal. THen we tried the Winegard ap-4727 at 22db. It did a bit better than the C.M. However we then instaled the ap-4800. That is where we really seen a difference. The most usable signal measured witha FSM came from the winegard. Now all of this talk is based on the most extreme area reception. But it gives you an idea of what really performs when your really out there.

TAke care All

Rich Wertman

R.W.Antenna Service Inc

Lockport,N.Y.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rwantennasat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1) The way it assembles i can see it would probably not survive the ice storms we get here to long. I can see the end of the antenna drooping already.
> 
> 
> 2) I honestly think it might perform similar to a winegard prostar uhf yagi, They both use a folded dipole feed.
> 
> 
> 3) Not to mention it takes you a half hour to assemble and the winegards take 5 miniutes.
> 
> 
> 4) The best preamps ive found are the winegards. They seem to resist lightning better. They have very little noise and offer numerous models to satisfy the overloading and ranges of most reception.
> 
> 
> 5) Now all of this talk is based on the most extreme area reception. But it gives you an idea of what really performs when your really out there.



1) Mine has been up for over a year, survived 80+ mph wind gusts, ice and heavy snow. It does 'flex' a little at the ends under its weight, but it is a very lightweight antenna.


2) Predicting reception is difficult to do. Yet many have reported great results replacing other antennas with the 91XG. The similarity in appearance to top performers like the JBX21 and the Triax Unix 100 suggest it is much better than you claim.


3) Taking my time and being careful, it took me less than 1/2 hour to assemble the 91XG. It took me far longer to put a Winegard HD7084 together, in part because of confusing directions. I suspect with a little practice, you'd have no trouble putting one together in 5-10 minutes.


4) What do you mean by resisting lightning? The noise figure on the Winegard preamps is 2.7dB for UHF, while the Channel Masters are 2.0. As others have posted here, there are preamplifiers with 0.4dB of noise. According to the experts, S/N only improves when the noise figure is 2.0dB or lower. The Winegards are better at handling overload than the Channel Masters, which may explain your testing results. I have a Winegard myself, and I'm not saying they're bad.


5) I think my situation qualifies as extreme, and I'm always keeping an eye out for better antennas. I live in a "bowl" area of a city with no nearby transmitters. The "local" stations range from 30-55 miles away, all physically blocked from line-of-sight. Worse, I'm shooting through trees within a half mile in all directions, because I can't get much higher than the 54' tower I have now. Most of my desired stations are blocked not only by hills and trees, but also the horizon, as they are more than 75 miles distant and have transmitter heights no greater than 1600'. I've been reading this forum for a long time, and I'm still waiting for the post where someone says, "I replaced my 91XG with Antenna X and my reception improved." I've read a lot of posts that say, "I replaced my Antenna X with a 91XG and things are dramatically better."


You seem to have a vested interest in Winegard products. Is it possible you're not being entirely objective?


----------



## Sirchadwick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rwantennasat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well after reading all the talk on this guys antenna system And what he decided to change to im quite suprised. I've been in antenna and satellite since 1982 and I have sold all Brands of antennas Winegard Ch.Master Delhi Antennacraft Blonder Tongue Kay Townes -Lance etc. The 4257 that you had is a super antenna. It was the largest Diamond Quantum uhf antenna ever built. I think you'll be slightly dissapointed seeing the constrruction of the 91xg. I had Antennas Direct Send me a 91Xg To rate its quality. The shipped one to me for free and i just put it together. I must admit Im not impressed with its construction! It uses a flimsy 1/2" aluminum tubing design for the boom? Then instead of having one nice length of boom ,or at most 2 I had 3 small pieces to assemble. The way it assembles i can see it would probably not survive the ice storms we get here to long. I can see the end of the antenna drooping already.
> 
> The entire assembly just seems cheap. I know they are trying to make it easier to ship by doing this but this is a joke! The mast mounting clamps are very odd in that it only supports the lower boom? and not upper support? The reflector grids look nice but again its assembly to the boom is a joke? It looks to me like a cheaply built item from hong kong! I cannot rate its performance yet because we are having heavy snow here and i need to get it up in the air. I honestly think it might perform similar to a winegard prostar uhf yagi, They both use a folded dipole feed. It might be as good as a 9022 But i doubt it will be as good as a 9032. And the construction of a winegard prostar yagi blows it away. Not to mention it takes you a half hour to assemble and the winegards take 5 miniutes.
> 
> I cant see where they can come up with the prices they want for these. You can buy a winegard 9022 or 9032 for 75.00 or less depending on model. I will report back to all of you on performance. From The western N.Y. area A.S.A.P.
> 
> B.T.W. Those of you who have been running the Winegard HD platinum antennas like the 8200 and the 9095 9085 uhf yagis. These antennas use a log periodic type of feed VS the prostar UHF yagis that use the Tetrapole folded dipole design. I have found over 30 years that the folded dipole feed on a cor ref yagi seems to perform better. I have spec sheets on almost any antenna built if you need to see them. I serve the allegheny mountain region here and i have had some really hard to receive areas. The 3 antennas that worked best were the CM Parabolics #1 The winegard prostar YAgi #2 and the Ch.Master 4228 8 bay #3. This was in a side by side using a winegard ap 4800 preamp. Now every situation is different. I find a yagi works better in congested areas and where you want the most signal and dont mind a rotor turning now and then. The 4 +* bay antennas work better in a wider view less turning. but also in a more open area. The best preamps ive found are the winegards. They seem to resist lightning better. They have very little noise and offer numerous models to satisfy the overloading and ranges of most reception. Channel masters amps never turned me on. HERE's Why Inthat same poor location we tried to pull uhf stations out of Grand Island. N/W of buffalo and apx 60 miles thu the hills from our location. Even the Super titan C.M. could just barely give us a usable signal. THen we tried the Winegard ap-4727 at 22db. It did a bit better than the C.M. However we then instaled the ap-4800. That is where we really seen a difference. The most usable signal measured witha FSM came from the winegard. Now all of this talk is based on the most extreme area reception. But it gives you an idea of what really performs when your really out there.
> 
> TAke care All
> 
> Rich Wertman
> 
> R.W.Antenna Service Inc
> 
> Lockport,N.Y.



Rich,


I am leading to believe that your input is correct. The Channel Master 4257 is considered to be the "best" yagi produced. The next best antenna was the 4251 parabolics. Channel Master has been in the business for a very long time.


I ordered the 91XG antenna to test. Based on your feedback, it may be in my best interest to stay with the 4257. Again, I am a man that heavily reseaches products and tests them unbiased. At the beginning, I was a little nervous with this antenna, due to its size and shape. Now, hearing additional feedback on the construction makes me think I made the wrong purchase.


Again, most people on this forum might not be as intimate with the 4257 as we are, and know that this antenna rocks! However, we were looking for something that will outperform it, and may end up with a disatisfied look on our faces when the 91XG is put to the test. Comparing this antenna to the 115 inch 4257, will yeild some good facts in the field.


In an above listed note, I broke down the specifications between the two antennas for comparison.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sirchadwick* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Again, most people on this forum might not be as intimate with the 4257 as we are, and know that this antenna rocks!



A search on "Channel Master 4257" and "DX" turned up zero antenna related hits on the first page.


Searches on the 4251 and the Winegard PR-9032 turned up many more hits.


Do you know something the DXers don't? Or is there a reason why they favor products like the Triax Unix 100 and JBX-21WB?


----------



## kgschell

I'm all new to this HDTV stuff, but I just bought a Sony 50" LCD Projection as a christmas surprise for my husband (We had been researching together, and then I convinced him he is NOT getting one until next year). I know that he has been looking into TV antennas to receive OTA HDTV channels from Kansas City. He had been eyeing a Terk HTVO, but I wanted to check before getting one to go with his TV since I have read about Channel master and Wineguard which seem less expensive. Our Zipcode is 66046, and we definitely want to receive Kansas City WB.


Thanks!


Oh - and I am also clueless as to what kind of surge protector to get for the TV so he can turn it on when I surprise him. I've seen ones that are supposed to clean the signal and cover up to 6000 joules, but they seem soooo expensive. Could you point me in the right direction?


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kgschell* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm all new to this HDTV stuff, but I just bought a Sony 50" LCD Projection as a christmas surprise for my husband (We had been researching together, and then I convinced him he is NOT getting one until next year). I know that he has been looking into TV antennas to receive OTA HDTV channels from Kansas City. He had been eyeing a Terk HTVO, but I wanted to check before getting one to go with his TV since I have read about Channel master and Wineguard which seem less expensive. Our Zipcode is 66046, and we definitely want to receive Kansas City WB.



Since most of the stations in KC are about 40 miles NE of you, I wouldn't recommend anything but a good *external* antenna.


> Quote:
> Oh - and I am also clueless as to what kind of surge protector to get for the TV so he can turn it on when I surprise him. I've seen ones that are supposed to clean the signal and cover up to 6000 joules, but they seem soooo expensive. Could you point me in the right direction?



I am partial to ISOBAR surge surpressors, they are 
....jc


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kgschell* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm all new to this HDTV stuff, but I just bought a Sony 50" LCD Projection as a christmas surprise for my husband (We had been researching together, and then I convinced him he is NOT getting one until next year). I know that he has been looking into TV antennas to receive OTA HDTV channels from Kansas City. He had been eyeing a Terk HTVO, but I wanted to check before getting one to go with his TV since I have read about Channel master and Wineguard which seem less expensive. Our Zipcode is 66046, and we definitely want to receive Kansas City WB.
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> Oh - and I am also clueless as to what kind of surge protector to get for the TV so he can turn it on when I surprise him. I've seen ones that are supposed to clean the signal and cover up to 6000 joules, but they seem soooo expensive. Could you point me in the right direction?



What type of antenna does www.antennaweb.org say you need? Antennaweb is usually too pessimistic for digital TV (and too optimistic for analog TV) but it is still a good place to start.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kgschell* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Our Zipcode is 66046, and we definitely want to receive Kansas City WB.



I have bad news for you. The odds are that you're not going to receive KCMO-DT at this time. They're broadcasting with a scant 9kw (1000kw is the maximum, for comparison.) The FCC projects coverage, which you can sometimes beat by a little, but rarely by a lot: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DS601641.html 


Some day, they will have a stronger signal (the FCC is demanding no later than 12/31/06.) But that day isn't today. Sorry to disappoint you.


I agree with the other poster who says you need an outdoor antenna to get the KC stations. 40 miles is really pushing it for an indoor antenna. You might get something, but more than likely, you're going to get nothing more than an unwatchable picture. I recommend a Channel Master 4228, which should run you about $50.


I hope the Sony LCD you got was not "HD Ready" and was instead "HD Built-In" or something like that. "HD Ready" sets do not have tuners, meaning you would need an external tuner box to receive over-the-air digital signals. These can be had for about $150, but that's probably not what you want to hear after spending $2K on a new TV.


Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.


----------



## kgschell

Thanks for the advice. I'm sure my husband will understand. The TV does have a built-in tuner. For outside antennas, does anyone have experience with the Terk amplified HDTV antenna at solidsignal on their off-air television page? I just wanted to check since that was the model my husband scoped out, even though I have been reading about Channel Master and Wineguard. According to anntennaweb org we will need a large directional with preamp, but according to checkhd com we would need a medium directional with preamp to get KC stations. I guess we can just wait and try them out. I just wanted to know if I should spend $80 on the Terk or $50 on the Channel Master.


Thanks!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kgschell* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For outside antennas, does anyone have experience with the Terk amplified HDTV antenna at solidsignal on their off-air television page? ...I just wanted to know if I should spend $80 on the Terk or $50 on the Channel Master.



While some people have success with Terk's antennas, most do not. For those who do have success, they could have purchased a much cheaper antenna and gotten the same or better results. Mostly, Terk makes pretty-looking antennas, which doesn't help you when you want a pretty-looking picture. The Channel Master is at least twice as good, and quite probably on the order of 10 times as good as the Terk.


If you want to add an amplifier, you can do so later; the Channel Master 7777 is an excellent choice and will do far more for your reception than the Terk's built-in amplifier would.


But at 40 miles, I think the 4228 by itself is enough antenna, especially if you're not blocked by a lot of hills (we are talking Kansas here, right...?) or tall buildings.


----------



## kgschell

Thanks for all your help guys!


----------



## rwantennasat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1) Mine has been up for over a year, survived 80+ mph wind gusts, ice and heavy snow. It does 'flex' a little at the ends under its weight, but it is a very lightweight antenna.
> 
> 
> 2) Predicting reception is difficult to do. Yet many have reported great results replacing other antennas with the 91XG. The similarity in appearance to top performers like the JBX21 and the Triax Unix 100 suggest it is much better than you claim.
> 
> 
> 3) Taking my time and being careful, it took me less than 1/2 hour to assemble the 91XG. It took me far longer to put a Winegard HD7084 together, in part because of confusing directions. I suspect with a little practice, you'd have no trouble putting one together in 5-10 minutes.
> 
> 
> 4) What do you mean by resisting lightning? The noise figure on the Winegard preamps is 2.7dB for UHF, while the Channel Masters are 2.0. As others have posted here, there are preamplifiers with 0.4dB of noise. According to the experts, S/N only improves when the noise figure is 2.0dB or lower. The Winegards are better at handling overload than the Channel Masters, which may explain your testing results. I have a Winegard myself, and I'm not saying they're bad.
> 
> 
> 5) I think my situation qualifies as extreme, and I'm always keeping an eye out for better antennas. I live in a "bowl" area of a city with no nearby transmitters. The "local" stations range from 30-55 miles away, all physically blocked from line-of-sight. Worse, I'm shooting through trees within a half mile in all directions, because I can't get much higher than the 54' tower I have now. Most of my desired stations are blocked not only by hills and trees, but also the horizon, as they are more than 75 miles distant and have transmitter heights no greater than 1600'. I've been reading this forum for a long time, and I'm still waiting for the post where someone says, "I replaced my 91XG with Antenna X and my reception improved." I've read a lot of posts that say, "I replaced my Antenna X with a 91XG and things are dramatically better."
> 
> 
> You seem to have a vested interest in Winegard products. Is it possible you're not being entirely objective?



I do not have a vested intrest in Winegard. In fact I used to like Channel master 's stuff alot better . That is until they went el Chepo El crapo!!!! They did away with all the good antennas like the most famous Quantum line. ALso they did away with many antennas like the PArascopes (which I have just bought the build specs for to reproduce since they will not) My simple reckoning is that if you compared a winegard pr-9032 to the 91xg the construction blows it away. It also has a longer 2 piece 80% constructed boom. Im looking at the gain and curve cahrts for the 9032 now and its 16.3 db on ch 32 its lowest is 14.9 on ch 14 and drops off at ch 69 considerably. WHich is normal beamwidths avg is 35 degrees And the f/b is apx 20 db across the band. Its design and feed is very similar to the 91xg. but the construction is not and neither is price. A 9032 can be had pretty chaeap if one looks. I have one on my house at 25 feet and it kicks. I can watch Erie Pa on digital on good days. On average i can see Toronto Canada which is apx 65 miles as crow flies And that is Hd. I also have a 4251 at 85 ft which see's alot more. Re: preamps. I dont care what these guys put in a book as rated specs. It all comes down to perfomance in the field!!!! And as i said before I have tried the Channel master amps and the winegard and Winegard wins in a side by side. I have always noticed more snow in a uhf picture using the C.M. But they were suppose to be .7 db less noise. I have placed bothe the Titans and the Winegards on a spectrum analyzer and i can see some distinct differences. Im not tooting a horn for anyone I had Antennas Direct send me an antenna to test And this is what i feel. I use antennas commercially as well on multi story buildings. I would never see myself putting the 91xg on a 10 story building , However i could see a Winegard there. Channel masters quality is also something to be spoke of. They no longer do any anodizing of any antennas. The 8 bay is still a good antenna ,but the cheapened it up by not using a 1 piece reflector they now use 2 4221's with a phasing bar and 2 reflectors in the rear. Just stupid crap like that.

Many of us in the antenna business (as I for over 25 years) boycotted C.M when they're quality went to crap and they dropped the good constrution and quality lines the use to handle. Winegard at least still builds a decent antenna.

In regards to comparing construction of an 8200P antenna to a 91xg!!! Thats like comparing a volkswagen To a cadillac. The 8200 is a full line vhf/uhf antenna that is apx 170" and has over 100 elements. Its also not a fair comparison to the 91xg Its gain pattern is an average of only 13 db gain. You should have tried a 9032 prostar which would have been more of a comparison. If you get the chance to try one do it you may be suprised? Thats just my 2 cents anyhow. I'll let everyone know how the 91xg performs once i get it up in the air.One thing to note is that Antenna Direct did not send me a gain and curve chart on the antenna as i requested so i cant see how they actually tested it. I do have specs on every channel master and winegardand antennacraft antenna as well as some of the delhi line too.

Rich


----------



## rwantennasat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A search on "Channel Master 4257" and "DX" turned up zero antenna related hits on the first page.
> 
> 
> Searches on the 4251 and the Winegard PR-9032 turned up many more hits.
> 
> 
> Do you know something the DXers don't? Or is there a reason why they favor products like the Triax Unix 100 and JBX-21WB?



Sounds to me like we're just a couple of old school boys who dont believe all the hype that some of the micro antenna companies boost about the're antennas. Ths HDTV thing is a new source of revenue for the unexpecting and un schooled person. The best antenna ever built for uhf was the Parabolics. I still have 3 of them and Their is nothing on the market that will. I,ve actually taken both the winegard yagi's and the channel master yagi's and modified them.( made them longer and put larger reflectors ) they improved slightly in gain and in directivity,but never better than a parabolic. Alot of people toting the new antennas havent ever used the stuff we are talking of. So YA just gotta see what happens. If i had alot of money i would start my own antenna mfg business. I am going to remarket the parabolic uhf antenna thou. I have a vested intrest in doing so and have a friend who is going to do all the aluminum fabrication. Its nbeen an ongoing project.

Rich


----------



## cpcat

I've done extensive testing with the Winegard PR-9032. It's inferior when used as a single antenna or a stack vs. the Televes DAT 75 pretty much up and down the band. The CM 4228 also outperformed the PR-9032 for me. The XG91 is a clone of the Funke 91 element model and MaxHD would tell you the Funke 91 element is at least comparable to the DAT 75. The Winegard 8200p combo is significantly inferior (for uhf) in performance to any of the above mentioned uhf antennas.


Winegard is notorious for exaggerating their numbers for antenna performance.

I'd still say they're a good value, but you get what you pay for.


----------



## rldud

If I connect two TVs to an OTA will the signal be reduced to each tv? I am assuming there is a type of splitter to accomplish this.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rldud* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I connect two TVs to an OTA will the signal be reduced to each tv? I am assuming there is a type of splitter to accomplish this.



Yes. Using a standard splitter, by about 1/2(of the signal strength).


If you connect the lead to an amplifier prior to splitting you'll be fine. Now if you have a mast mounted preamp, there is usually enough output to overcome the splitter.

....jc


----------



## bt-rtp

I am interested in obtaining a low cost RF field strength meter to align the azimuth and tilt angle of my UHF antenna. Something around $50 bucks would be the sweet spot.


Ideally, it would be more like a very simple spectum analyzer with a graphical display that can be used on a Windows laptop. That would be sweet. Thanks.


bt-rtp


----------



## billinabnett

I thought you guys/gals might enjoy seeing some pictures of an antenna project my partner and i are working on. We currently have a self-designed parabolic up approx. 100' on a R25G tower with a Yaesu 800 rotor. The new project is a Quad CM 2228 that is modified to improve feed design and will consist of 4 (32 Bay total) 4228s each with 7775 preamps. A BT BTY-HB-HP Hi-band VHF with a CM7777 will be below the bowties and will handle the VHF duties. On the UHF side, the 4 CM 2228 (Modified) each with 7775 Amps .. will have individual 7916 Belden downleads. This way we can stack in any manner we wish, by simple selecting the desired antenna(s) Performance was excellent on the parabolic and we are optimistic that this will exceed it.... We consistently lock on HD stations 100-175 miles. When we get this up, maybe i can share some data with you. Happy Holidays from East Texas.....


----------



## billinabnett

Here are a few more pictures for those of you that are interested.....


----------



## bt-rtp

I have a DirecTV H10-250 STB and suspect that some of my OTA frequencis levels are over driving the tuner, resulting in degraded performance and bouncing signal lock.


I live 15 miles from the tower site that has all of the major networks and each are transmitting at 1000 kW except:


NBC at 244 kW

UPN at 225kW


I am using a CM 4228 in my attic.


Up in the attic my 19" portable color TV receives all the analog UHF stations clearly clearly with no antenna connected at all!


What is the appropriate signal level to have entering the STB ?


bt-rtp


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *billinabnett* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I thought you guys/gals might enjoy seeing some pictures of an antenna project my partner and i are working on. We currently have a self-designed parabolic up approx. 100' on a R25G tower with a Yaesu 800 rotor. The new project is a Quad CM 2228 that is modified to improve feed design and will consist of 4 (32 Bay total) 4228s each with 7775 preamps. A BT BTY-HB-HP Hi-band VHF with a CM7777 will be below the bowties and will handle the VHF duties. On the UHF side, the 4 CM 2228 (Modified) each with 7775 Amps .. will have individual 7916 Belden downleads. This way we can stack in any manner we wish, by simple selecting the desired antenna(s) Performance was excellent on the parabolic and we are optimistic that this will exceed it.... We consistently lock on HD stations 100-175 miles. When we get this up, maybe i can share some data with you. Happy Holidays from East Texas.....




What are you going to use to combine the 4 8-bays?


How about a pic of the custom parabolic,and what feed did you use?


----------



## sebenste




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rwantennasat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I do not have a vested intrest in Winegard. In fact I used to like Channel master 's stuff alot better . That is until they went el Chepo El crapo!!!! They did away with all the good antennas like the most famous Quantum line. ALso they did away with many antennas like the PArascopes (which I have just bought the build specs for to reproduce since they will not) My Re: preamps. I dont care what these guys put in a book as rated specs. It all comes down to performance in the field!!!! And as i said before I have tried the Channel master amps and the winegard and Winegard wins in a side by side. I have always noticed more snow in a uhf picture using the C.M. But they were suppose to be .7 db less noise. I have placed bothe the Titans and the Winegards on a spectrum analyzer and i can see some distinct differences. Rich



Rich,


Great posts. Can you elaborate on a few things for me?


I have a ChannelMaster 7777 preamp in my attic, 60 miles away from Chicago and I lock all but one channel, on channel 3 (WBBM-DT). I have 3 friends who have one, and it works wonders. What Winegard are you using that will produce less

noise but with similar or better gain? I am all ears! The CM 7777 to me is a tough one to beat. I have heard that the Winegard preamps take lightning hits much better than the ChannelMasters. What do you see on a spectrum analyzer that is "distinct"? Which Winegard with similar high amplification would you recommend?

Would the Winegard AP8275 beat out the CM 7777? I have both VHF and UHF I must worry about.


I agree that CM has gone the "el cheapo" route. I have 3 4228's, one of them is the old 1-screen design, and they do perform, though I like the older design better. You are right about the Winegards. Maybe they exaggerate their gain, but those things are built to LAST.


A quick story. Growing up in the very near southeast suburbs of Chicago, the Chicago Bears decided that if a game wasn't a sellout, it was blacked out on WBBM-TV. Since they weren't selling out, many games were decided at the last minute (and I do mean last minute) to be carried or not. Well, along and east of I-94 in Chicago and south, the bars said "the heck with this!". They purchased a 50'

tower, a ChannelMaster parabolic UHF antenna, pointed it east to get WSBT-TV 22 in South Bend, IN...and the rest is history. I bet the north/northwest sides got them to point towards Milwaukee/Rockford, respectively. The bars spent $700, including an ad on their door that said something like "we ALWAYS have the Bears games"...and they made their investment back many, many, many times over. Those antennas rocked! Unfortunately, South Bend doesn't carry Chicago Blackhawk home games.










Anyway, if you do reproduce the old parabolics, let us know. Put a mesh screen on them, and the gain may be insane...


----------



## sebenste




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bt-rtp* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a DirecTV H10-250 STB and suspect that some of my OTA frequencis levels are over driving the tuner, resulting in degraded performance and bouncing signal lock.
> 
> 
> I live 15 miles from the tower site that has all of the major networks and each are transmitting at 1000 kW except:
> 
> 
> NBC at 244 kW
> 
> UPN at 225kW
> 
> 
> I am using a CM 4228 in my attic.
> 
> 
> Up in the attic my 19" portable color TV receives all the analog UHF stations clearly clearly with no antenna connected at all!
> 
> 
> What is the appropriate signal level to have entering the STB ?
> 
> 
> bt-rtp



-10 to 10 db is fine, and yes, it sounds like you are way overdriving your tuner.

You can go to Radio Shack and buy a signal attenuator. You can knock it down up to 20dB, or steps down to I think around 7 dB, but don't quote me on that.

In any case, get that, and see what attenuation level works.


----------



## sebenste




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have bad news for you. The odds are that you're not going to receive KCMO-DT at this time. They're broadcasting with a scant 9kw (1000kw is the maximum, for comparison.) The FCC projects coverage, which you can sometimes beat by a little, but rarely by a lot: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DS601641.html
> 
> 
> Some day, they will have a stronger signal (the FCC is demanding no later than 12/31/06.) But that day isn't today.



Sregener,


I think you have a typo. Full power has to be on by 7/1/06 for all digital TV stations.


----------



## MAX HD

Gilbert,

You didn't say what antenna you're using to receive Ch3?


My experience using preamps on Lowband is "not much difference".In your situation,a cut-to-channel 3 antenna placed somewhere for the best possible signal,would be the best you could do.


----------



## billinabnett

The Quad Cm2228s will have separate downleads each connected to their respective 7775 Power Supply. From there the options are many.... Single..dual.... horiz...vert... etc.... PicoMacom TSB-41GFR Premium 4-Way splitter w/130DB EMI isolation would be sufficient for a 4-way combiner. Unused inputs (if i am using a 2 antenna array) would be terminated.


The parabolic is up about 110ft.. The feed for it is essentially a log periodic...


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *billinabnett* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Performance was excellent on the parabolic and we are optimistic that this will exceed it.... We consistently lock on HD stations 100-175 miles. When we get this up, maybe i can share some data with you. Happy Holidays from East Texas.....




It looks like you've done alot of work there. I hope you have success to report back on.


That's pretty darn amazing performance you mention for the parabolic.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think you have a typo. Full power has to be on by 7/1/06 for all digital TV stations.



No typo. The FCC has made it abundantly clear that they will grant a one-time, six month extension for stations unable to get to full power by 7/1/06 if there are extenuating circumstances. Given their willingness to grant those to the big 4 in top-30 markets on 7/1/05, I gave the conservative date when they'll need to be close to full power (minimum 85% market coverage, based on 1999 census data.)


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *billinabnett* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The Quad Cm2228s will have separate downleads each connected to their respective 7775 Power Supply. From there the options are many.... Single..dual.... horiz...vert... etc.... PicoMacom TSB-41GFR Premium 4-Way splitter w/130DB isolation would be sufficient for a 4-way combiner. Unused inputs (if i am using a 2 antenna array) would be terminated.
> 
> 
> The parabolic is up about 110ft.. The feed for it is essentially a log periodic...



A four-way splitter will not work very well for a quad.Three cheap 2-way splitters will work better.A stripline combiner is the best thing to use..link..


VHF/UHF Antenna Combiners
http://www.lindsayelec.com/antenna/c...combiners.html 


What diameter is the parabolic...any way to put a pic up?


----------



## rwantennasat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *billinabnett* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here are a few more pictures for those of you that are interested.....



Great looking:

Can you send photos of the parabolic you have up??

Rich Lockport,N.Y.


----------



## rwantennasat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've done extensive testing with the Winegard PR-9032. It's inferior when used as a single antenna or a stack vs. the Televes DAT 75 pretty much up and down the band. The CM 4228 also outperformed the PR-9032 for me. The XG91 is a clone of the Funke 91 element model and MaxHD would tell you the Funke 91 element is at least comparable to the DAT 75. The Winegard 8200p combo is significantly inferior (for uhf) in performance to any of the above mentioned uhf antennas.
> 
> 
> Winegard is notorious for exaggerating their numbers for antenna performance.
> 
> I'd still say they're a good value, but you get what you pay for.



Thats very odd Guess it goes to show what differences their are in dif locations. I've always seen a better gain on the 9032 vs the 4228. even over average terrain. EX: on my house roof i have a 10 ft tripod with a big vhf log then 10' above the 9032 and a ap4700. it see's more than the 4228 did with same amp and height?? However the Televes antennas are not all that reasonable. For the gain dif a low noise amp would probably make it up. Again I'll always say theirs noting like a parabolic. I'll be sending some photo attachments of my array's

Rich LOckport N.Y.


----------



## rwantennasat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What are you going to use to combine the 4 8-bays?
> 
> 
> How about a pic of the custom parabolic,and what feed did you use?



here is a photo of what a 7' parabolic can do from Lockport,N.Y. 14094 1200 miles


----------



## rwantennasat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've done extensive testing with the Winegard PR-9032. It's inferior when used as a single antenna or a stack vs. the Televes DAT 75 pretty much up and down the band. The CM 4228 also outperformed the PR-9032 for me. The XG91 is a clone of the Funke 91 element model and MaxHD would tell you the Funke 91 element is at least comparable to the DAT 75. The Winegard 8200p combo is significantly inferior (for uhf) in performance to any of the above mentioned uhf antennas.
> 
> 
> Winegard is notorious for exaggerating their numbers for antenna performance.
> 
> I'd still say they're a good value, but you get what you pay for.



some photos of my arrays

fisrt is 7 ' parabolic on 80' tower w/ winegard ac-4990 preamp

2nd is stacked hi band yagi's with a winegard 7-13 preamp ac-7130

3rd is a 7' finco on a 50 ft tower at 20' with winegard cp-4700

4th modified 9032 yagi(longer and bigger reflector) w winegard cp-4700 anda TDP vhf log apx 192" with a winegard ac-2880 vhf amp. at 30 ft


----------



## rwantennasat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rwantennasat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> some photos of my arrays
> 
> fisrt is 7 ' parabolic on 80' tower w/ winegard ac-4990 preamp
> 
> 2nd is stacked hi band yagi's with a winegard 7-13 preamp ac-7130
> 
> 3rd is a 7' finco on a 50 ft tower at 20' with winegard cp-4700
> 
> 4th modified 9032 yagi(longer and bigger reflector) w winegard cp-4700 anda TDP vhf log apx 192" with a winegard ac-2880 vhf amp. at 30 ft




Ok here is photo 4


----------



## rwantennasat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've done extensive testing with the Winegard PR-9032. It's inferior when used as a single antenna or a stack vs. the Televes DAT 75 pretty much up and down the band. The CM 4228 also outperformed the PR-9032 for me. The XG91 is a clone of the Funke 91 element model and MaxHD would tell you the Funke 91 element is at least comparable to the DAT 75. The Winegard 8200p combo is significantly inferior (for uhf) in performance to any of the above mentioned uhf antennas.
> 
> 
> Winegard is notorious for exaggerating their numbers for antenna performance.
> 
> I'd still say they're a good value, but you get what you pay for.



Here is a gain chart for the DAt-75 # D and the 9032 #N and the difference is negligeable at the bands beggining. It DAT75 does show a bit more at band middle and end. But we dont go above ch 69 here. The author of tis also went on to show the actual gain and most antennas would suprise you!!!!! He did a section on The DAt-75 stating how its gorssly overated by the European Builders?

So As i said before Its all about what works for you BUt nothing will beat a PArabolic Anywhere!!!!!

Rich


----------



## ctdish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *billinabnett* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The Quad Cm2228s will have separate downleads each connected to their respective 7775 Power Supply. From there the options are many.... Single..dual.... horiz...vert... etc.... PicoMacom TSB-41GFR Premium 4-Way splitter w/130DB isolation would be sufficient for a 4-way combiner. Unused inputs (if i am using a 2 antenna array) would be terminated.
> 
> 
> The parabolic is up about 110ft.. The feed for it is essentially a log periodic...



You need to have the down leads exactly the same length because the signals have to be in phase when they are added in the combiner. Also you have to be careful to get the phase correct when hooking up the 300/75 ohm balun or again the signals will cancel rather than add when combined. The splitter loss will not matter much since you are combining after the preamps.

I use four combined 4248 antennas with a 0.4 dB preamp and a stripline combiner. They are up only about 45 feet though. John


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *billinabnett* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The Quad Cm2228s (4228s?) will have separate downleads each connected to their respective 7775 Power Supply. From there the options are many.... Single..dual.... horiz...vert... etc.... PicoMacom TSB-41GFR Premium 4-Way splitter w/130DB isolation would be sufficient for a 4-way combiner.



You are pre-amplifying them individually, before combining? I'm not even sure that would improve your S/N ratio, because you'd be adding the noise of the four preamps. Four times as much signal, four times as much preamp noise...


The splitters don't have 130dB of isolation. They have 130dB of RF shielding, because the backs of their cases are soldered on rather than glued on. That factor is only important to those who are concerned that they will be inadvertently broadcasting their signal.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A four-way splitter will not work very well for a quad. Three cheap 2-way splitters will work better. A stripline combiner is the best thing to use..link..



I agree, Then you will need to use only one preamp.


By the way, I once compared the insertion loss of a pair of back-to-back Channel Master outdoor baluns with their indoor ones, and believe it or not, the cheap, indoor ones only typically lost an average of less than 1dB at UHF frequencies, varying from about 1/2 to 1.5dB at various channel frequencies, whereas the insertion loss of the outdoor ones varied from 1/2 dB to about 4dB at different channels. Honest!. But I don't think the indoor ones are labeled for polarity, so you might have to do some experimenting to get them to work in unison.


Channel Master and Winegard must have made some old, low-loss 300 ohm antenna combiners. If they did, and if you can get your hands on any, they may be a good value and solution for your combining needs.


As I recall, the HDTV Primer site has criticized the impedance match of the 8-bay bowtie. It is easy to get a 4-bay 300 ohm array to combine to 300 ohms, since putting two in parallel results in 150 ohms, and then connecting those two pairs in series brings the load back to 300 ohms, but there is no simple way to do that with the 8 bays, though I suppose if sufficient thought and know-how went into the engineering of the coupling rails, some kind of compensation might have been engineered into them.


If were building this monstrosity,I might be tempted to construct two pair of vertical rails between the upper and lower antennas and then horizontally combining them from their vertical midpoints, using construction like the coupling busses used to connect the individual bowties and stacks in each antenna and see what you get for performance


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The noise figure on the Winegard preamps is 2.7dB for UHF, while the Channel Masters are 2.0. As others have posted here, there are preamplifiers with 0.4dB of noise. According to the experts, S/N only improves when the noise figure is 2.0dB or lower. The Winegards are better at handling overload than the Channel Masters, which may explain your testing results. I have a Winegard myself, and I'm not saying they're bad.



The advantage due to amplifier noise figures is different for a TV antenna than for a satellite LNB. This is because the satellite antenna is aimed up, away from the earth. The noise temperature of the sky varies from 4 degres Kelvin for deep space to about 35 degrees Kelvin into the Milky way. The noise temperture when aimed at the horizon is the actual temperture of the earth. It is is often approximated as 273 degrees Kelvin, but that's really only true at 32 degrees farenheit. In any event, a noise temperature of 273 equates to a noise figure of about 3 db. Unless there's excessive loss in the balun or a long coax betwen the antenna and the preamp, the difference between a noise figure of 2.0 and 2.7 db is immaterial for OTA reception.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afsheen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Could anyone help me with following questions?
> 
> 
> 
> Is getting too much digital singal strength a bad thing?
> 
> What are some of the symptoms of very strong digital signals?
> 
> 
> I was told I should install an attenuator and connect it to my OTA antenna.
> 
> 
> Thanks



Too much signal can overload the TV. Normally it's hard to overload a TV, but it's easier to overload a preamplifier.


I can overload my Zenith TV set when I use an all channel antenna. I am 8 miles from the transmitters in Albany. There's nothing in the way to attenuate the signals. In my case a strong channel ch 6 analog (82-88 mhz) caused intermod 14 channels below channel 45, a full power UHF analog. Center of channel 45 minus center of channel 6 equals channel 31, a classic third order intermod product. This prevented me from receiving a channel 31 in Hartford. The use of a Winegard UHF only preamp (VHF pass) did not help. I replaced the all-channel antenna with a 4228 Channel Master UHF only, and the problem was much better, but not completely gone. Finally, I built a 3 pole interdigital filter for channel 31. Here's what I used to design it.
http://www.wa4dsy.net/cgi-bin/idbpf


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afsheen* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What can be done with stations that multicast?
> 
> 
> Thanks



Multicasting looks bad when fixed bit rate encoding is used. Variable bit rate is much better, approaching the PQ of no multicasting. If your local station is using fixed bit rate, tell them to buy these for Christmas;

http://www.tandbergtv.com/productview.asp?n=41 
http://www.tandbergtv.com/productview.asp?n=51 
http://www.tandbergtv.com/productview.asp?n=52 


Harmonic also makes similar products.

http://www.harmonicinc.com/view_csd_...m?classID=2374 


They should expect to pay almost $100K to do it right. That's not in my Christmas budget this year.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by sregener
> 
> Generally speaking, an outdoor antenna will lose at least 50% of its performance over 10 years due to corrosion.
> 
> 
> Sorry, but that sounds like BS. Can you provide a link or other explanation?
> 
> 
> Ron



He must be talking about RatShack antennas.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rwantennasat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here is a gain chart for the DAt-75 # D and the 9032 #N and the difference is negligeable at the bands beggining. It DAT75 does show a bit more at band middle and end. But we dont go above ch 69 here. The author of tis also went on to show the actual gain and most antennas would suprise you!!!!! He did a section on The DAt-75 stating how its gorssly overated by the European Builders?
> 
> So As i said before Its all about what works for you BUt nothing will beat a PArabolic Anywhere!!!!!
> 
> Rich



Well, like I said, I've tried them both at my location and the DAT 75 performed better without doubt. Gain charts are of some value, but it's actual performance that counts. The HDTVprimer link you gave is actually very complimentary of the DAT 75 if you read it all.


Your 1200 mile tropo catch is nice and those are some cool rigs you've put up.







I got a station from Havana via e-skip once on a simple channel 4 folded dipole.


It's hard to argue with the gain a parabolic can produce. The disadvantages come from size, weight, wind and rotor loading as well as less front/back ratio.

I've heard of folks adding screening to them which I'm sure helps but then that adds even more weight and load.


I'd still like to try one. I'll be glad to beta test for you if you like.


----------



## firemantom26




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *billinabnett* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I thought you guys/gals might enjoy seeing some pictures of an antenna project my partner and i are working on. We currently have a self-designed parabolic up approx. 100' on a R25G tower with a Yaesu 800 rotor. The new project is a Quad CM 2228 that is modified to improve feed design and will consist of 4 (32 Bay total) 4228s each with 7775 preamps. A BT BTY-HB-HP Hi-band VHF with a CM7777 will be below the bowties and will handle the VHF duties. On the UHF side, the 4 CM 2228 (Modified) each with 7775 Amps .. will have individual 7916 Belden downleads. This way we can stack in any manner we wish, by simple selecting the desired antenna(s) Performance was excellent on the parabolic and we are optimistic that this will exceed it.... We consistently lock on HD stations 100-175 miles. When we get this up, maybe i can share some data with you. Happy Holidays from East Texas.....




I think the route I am going with is stacking two CM- 4228 Do you know how much DB gain this will make?

Also to go stack vertical or horizontal? I have Samsung 26" HDTV (TX-P2675WHD) Channel Master 4228 UHF antenna Channel Master 777 amp and a Channel Master rotator( CM 9521A)


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *firemantom26* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think the route I am going with is stacking two CM- 4228 Do you know how much DB gain this will make?
> 
> Also to go stack vertical or horizontal? I have Samsung 26" HDTV (TX-P2675WHD) Channel Master 4228 UHF antenna Channel Master 777 amp and a Channel Master rotator( CM 9521A)



Most of the answers you desire are here. 


There is also a section for 32 bay antennas.









....jc


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *firemantom26* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think the route I am going with is stacking two CM- 4228 Do you know how much DB gain this will make?
> 
> Also to go stack vertical or horizontal? I have Samsung 26" HDTV (TX-P2675WHD) Channel Master 4228 UHF antenna Channel Master 777 amp and a Channel Master rotator( CM 9521A)



Why do you suspect that a slight improvement in the quality of your antenna signal will be beneficial? What stations are you having trouble with?


----------



## billinabnett

Thanks for the input on the Quad CM2228s. Frankly, we feel that the 4 way splitter (PicoMacom- used as a combiner) is sufficient due to it providing a 75ohm match to the output of each 7775. Also each amp is pushing 25-26 db gain into each port. Our concept was to not focus on one method of stacking. If lower NFs are needed, i have the .4 NF amps from Europe... but they are 20db gain and the CM7775 is more gain. It is our opinion that more signal is lost due to ineffective matching with stacking schemes, spacing, etc. Please don't think i am ignoring theory, but i prefer to experiment and obtain the best solution.. I would throw this out for comment also.. 300-75 conversion at the feed is my preference. Also, i feel it is critical to have the bottom mesh of the top 4228s overlap the top mesh of the bottom 2 CM4228s. This way all of the 8 vertical bowties (in a vertical line) have the same vertical spacing between them. Also, i think it makes sense to use black (UV Protected) tiewraps to tightly secure all sections of the mesh, thus giving a contiguous mesh. Also, using corrosion proof materials on the feeds (balun connect points) and then good sealing. Happy Holidays!!


----------



## firemantom26




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Why do you suspect that a slight improvement in the quality of your antenna signal will be beneficial? What stations are you having trouble with?




A couple from Pittsburgh are hit and miss.


----------



## sebenste




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Gilbert,
> 
> You didn't say what antenna you're using to receive Ch3?
> 
> 
> My experience using preamps on Lowband is "not much difference".In your situation,a cut-to-channel 3 antenna placed somewhere for the best possible signal,would be the best you could do.



I have an old no-longer-manufactured Winegard VHF-only antenna (channels 2-13). It's huge and it barely fits in my attic. It's like 17' long.


Gilbert


----------



## sebenste




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No typo. The FCC has made it abundantly clear that they will grant a one-time, six month extension for stations unable to get to full power by 7/1/06 if there are extenuating circumstances. Given their willingness to grant those to the big 4 in top-30 markets on 7/1/05, I gave the conservative date when they'll need to be close to full power (minimum 85% market coverage, based on 1999 census data.)



Sregener,


And that's the key...extenuating circumstances. I understand the FCC was not happy about it. I wonder if they will be less generous in this round?


----------



## sriggins

Hi







I have an internal antenna ( http://www.geeksrus.com/albums/livin.../CRW_3075.html ) that I moved into a empty bedroom and now have reception on all channels except for 2-1 (43) KATU here in Portland.


Is there any chance I can get all channels? In the pic above, I had all channels but 8-1 (46) NBC. Will a pre-amp help at all or will it just amplify the data that is missing the start with.


I'm renting and will be buying, and also hoping for the channels to move to the sat some day, so don't want to invest in an outdoor solution right now.


When I am not getting a channel, the signal bounces from say 88 to 17 etc etc, like it does on 2-1 now.


I bought a compass and think it is pointed in the general 64 degree direction (63 for 2-1, 6-1, 68 for 8-1) From what i have read, 6-1 and 2-1 share the same tower. I get 6-1 fine.


thanks!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> And that's the key...extenuating circumstances. I understand the FCC was not happy about it. I wonder if they will be less generous in this round?



Technically, it's the same round. The 100% power (or 85% of 1999 population coverage if not retaining the digital channel allocation at analog shutdown) requirement is phased in based on market size and station "importance." The deadline for the big 4 (ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox but oddly not PBS) in the top-100 markets was 7/1/05. Many stations missed the deadline. The FCC granted extentions to all but one station that requested it, and they denied the one in part because the station didn't submit their extension request until after the deadline had passed. Their punishment consisted in a pretty hefty fine, and that was all.


The second half of the 100% requirement comes due on 7/1/06, which includes all stations in the country. Note that extensions are still available for "financial hardship," meaning that stations that would be bankrupted by the expense of going full power are not subject to this deadline - at all. They don't need a special, one-time six month extension. They could, if needed, wait until the analog shutdown to flash cut to digital. WEUX/WLAX in Eau Claire/La Crosse, WI is a perfect example. For stations that cannot demonstrate financial hardship, six month extensions shouldn't be too hard to come by, especially for stations that require tower work. Because of all the stations that have tower work, the limited number of tower crews is stretched to the limit. Backlogs are months, if not years, long. Having existing towers knocked down by weather and wayward airplanes hasn't helped this much.


It is not in the FCC's or the public's interest for stations to lose their interference protected areas, and I think only the most extreme cases will see penalties like this. As long as the stations have put forth a good-faith effort in getting their digital signals ramped up, I don't forsee the FCC denying extensions. While this is frustrating for us, the viewers, the long-term impact of, say, an ABC affiliate permanently locked at 6kw would be far greater than the short-term cost of a six-month extension.


While I hope that all stations meet the 7/1/06 deadline, I have learned never to promise results to people hoping for a particular station on such tenuous legal requirements. The real date is 12/31/06 for all intents and purposes, and I suspect that most stations will be near full power.


It is worth noting that the "full power" requirement lacks a lot of teeth for stations reverting to their analog (or a completely different) frequency; the 85% requirement is based on 1999 census data. Thus, a station like KSTC-DT in Minneapolis/St. Paul is reaching the number of viewers that they reached in 1999 with a 205kw signal, due to population growth. If they had to cover the area they had in 1999, they would be much closer to 500kw. The difference in range between 500kw and 1000kw is very small.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rwantennasat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here is a gain chart for the DAt-75 # D and the 9032 #N and the difference is negligeable at the bands beggining. It DAT75 does show a bit more at band middle and end. But we dont go above ch 69 here. The author of tis also went on to show the actual gain and most antennas would suprise you!!!!! He did a section on The DAt-75 stating how its gorssly overated by the European Builders?



At the beginning of the UHF band, all these yagi/corner-hybrid models are basically simple corner reflectors. The differences are going to be subtle at best. At the middle of the band, you start to see the benefits of the yagi designs. And while the 9032 does catch up as you pass channel 60, this will be academic in a few years when the broadcast spectrum in the US drops to channel 51. For those in border zones getting Canadian stations, performance at the higher channels may matter. I find the flat gain across the middle channels (say, around channel 40) to be particularly damning of this antenna.


I'm not defending the DAT 75 or any other model, or the gain figures advertised. People have done everything they can to make their model look the best, including some pretty weird testing standards. But just because a claim is exaggerated doesn't mean the antenna doesn't perform. The DAT 75 is still a top performer, though maybe not quite as good as the manufacturer would have you believe.


The 4251 is a great antenna for what it does, but at least one tester found it inferior to many other antennas: http://www.atechfabrication.com/test...st_results.htm 


His conclusion? "4251 best long distance capability, but not good for multipath." And we all know that multipath can kill digital reception.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sriggins* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Will a pre-amp help at all or will it just amplify the data that is missing the start with.



An amplifier is unlikely to help you in your situation. The bouncing signal is almost always an indication of multipath. You could check analog UHF signals from the same tower and see if your reception is ghosty or snowy. If it has ghosts, an amplifier isn't going to help. If it's snow, then it's worth a shot. If you do have ghosts, you may actually want to try a variable attenuator from Radio Shack. It has helped some people deal with multipath (which looks like ghosting on analog signals.) If it doesn't work, you can always return it for a full refund.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *billinabnett* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the input on the Quad CM2228s. Frankly, we feel that the 4 way splitter (PicoMacom- used as a combiner) is sufficient due to it providing a 75ohm match to the output of each 7775. Also each amp is pushing 25-26 db gain into each port. Our concept was to not focus on one method of stacking. If lower NFs are needed, i have the .4 NF amps from Europe... but they are 20db gain and the CM7775 is more gain. It is our opinion that more signal is lost due to ineffective matching with stacking schemes, spacing, etc. Please don't think i am ignoring theory, but i prefer to experiment and obtain the best solution.. I would throw this out for comment also.. 300-75 conversion at the feed is my preference. Also, i feel it is critical to have the bottom mesh of the top 4228s overlap the top mesh of the bottom 2 CM4228s. This way all of the 8 vertical bowties (in a vertical line) have the same vertical spacing between them. Also, i think it makes sense to use black (UV Protected) tiewraps to tightly secure all sections of the mesh, thus giving a contiguous mesh. Also, using corrosion proof materials on the feeds (balun connect points) and then good sealing. Happy Holidays!!




I just gotta ask.What is the intended target(s) of this monster?


Also,what is the two splitters for in the center pic? I thought you were amping each 8-bay seperate.


Another comment.Don't know if a four set 300 ohm combiner/splitter would be of any use,but I got one from RICH THE ANTENNA MAN last year,for someone else.Maybe he has some more.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *billinabnett* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the input on the Quad CM2228s. Frankly, we feel that the 4 way splitter (PicoMacom- used as a combiner) is sufficient due to it providing a 75ohm match to the output of each 7775. Also each amp is pushing 25-26 db gain into each port. Our concept was to not focus on one method of stacking. If lower NFs are needed, i have the .4 NF amps from Europe... but they are 20db gain and the CM7775 is more gain. It is our opinion that more signal is lost due to ineffective matching with stacking schemes, spacing, etc. !!



I've tried stacking with two identical amps before the combiner and even keeping all cable lengths identical the signal wasn't as good as combining before amplification. I think it may be difficult to get it phased properly due to differences in the amps (even though they are identical). Anyhow, you may want to consider using the 4-way low loss combiner from Lindsay and amplifying after the combiner at some point.


----------



## rgathright

This is off thread, but this is the best place to get help. I have 2 homes due to Hurricane Katrina. All of my HDTV's are in the Houston rental. I have a new house in Louisiana that I visit 2 times a month. I need a good VHF antenna that will pull in the local VHF OTA signals. I already have a CM4228 for the UHF stations, but need something that will pull in the VHF stations. I tried my best to talk the wife into getting a third HDTV, but she has not agreed yet. In the meantime I need to pull the local analog stations. Antennaweb shows all of the analog stations to be blue and violet.


Any help is appreciated.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rgathright* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I need a good VHF antenna that will pull in the local VHF OTA signals.



Can't go wrong with the biggest combos Winegard and Channel Master make. If you're not using a preamp with separate inputs, the Channel Master #0549 will filter out the UHF from the combo.


If you want to spend some real cash on VHF, you can get a Delhi VHF-only for around $200.


Winegard also makes 3 VHF-only antennas, the PR5020, HD4053 and PR5030. Any of them should work fairly well for you.


----------



## sebenste




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Technically, it's the same round. The 100% power (or 85% of 1999 population coverage if not retaining the digital channel allocation at analog shutdown) requirement is phased in based on market size and station "importance." The deadline for the big 4 (ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox but oddly not PBS) in the top-100 markets was 7/1/05. Many stations missed the deadline. The FCC granted extentions to all but one station that requested it, and they denied the one in part because the station didn't submit their extension request until after the deadline had passed. Their punishment consisted in a pretty hefty fine, and that was all.
> 
> 
> The second half of the 100% requirement comes due on 7/1/06, which includes all stations in the country. Note that extensions are still available for "financial hardship," meaning that stations that would be bankrupted by the expense of going full power are not subject to this deadline - at all. They don't need a special, one-time six month extension. They could, if needed, wait until the analog shutdown to flash cut to digital. WEUX/WLAX in Eau Claire/La Crosse, WI is a perfect example. Backlogs are months, if not years, long. Having existing towers knocked down by weather and wayward airplanes hasn't helped this much.
> 
> 
> It is not in the FCC's or the public's interest for stations to lose their interference protected areas, and I think only the most extreme cases will see penalties like this. As long as the stations have put forth a good-faith effort in getting their digital signals ramped up, I don't forsee the FCC denying extensions. While this is frustrating for us, the viewers, the long-term impact of, say, an ABC affiliate permanently locked at 6kw would be far greater than the short-term cost of a six-month extension.
> 
> 
> While I hope that all stations meet the 7/1/06 deadline, I have learned never to promise results to people hoping for a particular station on such tenuous legal requirements. The real date is 12/31/06 for all intents and purposes, and I suspect that most stations will be near full power.



Sregener,


Great post and comments. However, the FCC may not be as generous to those who have the money and were just being "lazy". But given your point, you're right, the FCC will probably grant the 6-month extension. WCIA-DT in Champaign, IL is probably one example. They told viewers they'll be up "by the end of 2006"

to full power and HD. It can also be noted that the FCC was slow in approving their CP.


Whatever the case may be, 2006 will feature, in general, the second-to-last stage of the DTV transition. 2009, when it comes, will finally yank analog cell phones, TV's and other devices off the hook forever (unless you have a converter box, of course).


Can't happen soon enough for me! And I can't even afford cable or satellite right now, just over-the-air DTV.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can't happen soon enough for me! And I can't even afford cable or satellite right now, just over-the-air DTV.



I'm not in the camp looking forward to the analog shutdown. I figure to lose more than I'll gain.


Four distant (55+ miles) stations will revert to hi-VHF, but their distance and local interference mean I probably won't get a usable signal from any of them.


One station will go from a limited power (but covering 85%) and low transmitter location to high power and the top of their tower, so I'll gain them.


Another station will drop their temporary, 205kw signal (still covering 85%) and go to a full megawatt, but I get them just fine now most of the time, and the times I don't, other 1000kw stations don't come in so I have reason to expect them to be better.


That's about it. Lose 4. Gain (maybe) 2.


I also use analog coverage of distant stations when the digital stuff isn't coming in, even full powered digital stations. Those will be gone, as well. No analog backup when digital reception over the horizon isn't all it could be.


Troubleshooting digital reception will be harder, as most tuners give no indication as to why a signal is breaking up other than useless information like "85%" and "52%".


What's the thrill? The full-power deadline is the one that I'm looking forward to. The analog shutoff? Only the broadcasters seem to benefit from that.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What's the thrill? The full-power deadline is the one that I'm looking forward to. The analog shutoff? Only the broadcasters seem to benefit from that.



Here in the northeast of the country where overcrowding of the airwaves is a real problem the analog shutdown should help with interference issues. It will really make troubleshooting reception issues a lot more difficult though.


----------



## milehighmike

Quote from sebenste:



> Quote:
> While I hope that all stations meet the 7/1/06 deadline, I have learned never to promise results to people hoping for a particular station on such tenuous legal requirements. The real date is 12/31/06 for all intents and purposes, and I suspect that most stations will be near full power.



In the Denver DMA, your last sentence would read: "There is no real date and for all intents and purposes no stations will be near or at full power in the foreseeable future."


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *milehighmike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In the Denver DMA, your last sentence would read: "There is no real date and for all intents and purposes no stations will be near or at full power in the foreseeable future."



I think once Congress approves a tinfoil-hat subsidy for all residents of Denver and surrounding community, as well as special glasses that make broadcast towers appear invisible, Denver will join the digital fold. Until then, the NIMBYs and NINCOMPOOPS will prevail.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No typo. The FCC has made it abundantly clear that they will grant a one-time, six month extension for stations unable to get to full power by 7/1/06 if there are extenuating circumstances. Given their willingness to grant those to the big 4 in top-30 markets on 7/1/05, I gave the conservative date when they'll need to be close to full power (minimum 85% market coverage, based on 1999 census data.)



this post interests me GREATLY. I'm in a topographically challenged (ok neighbors house in the way) area and my fox station at 2 degrees off every other channel is low on wattage. Also WB at channel 54 is low power and 67NBC just gets goofy at times. If these channels Must up their power next year, this would help me a lot


So in the Philly area will this happen?


----------



## sebenste




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think once Congress approves a tinfoil-hat subsidy for all residents of Denver and surrounding community, as well as special glasses that make broadcast towers appear invisible, Denver will join the digital fold. Until then, the NIMBYs and NINCOMPOOPS will prevail.



LOL! OK, not for you folks in Denver. I forgot about that market. I haven't read through all the posts and articles so I hope they're not worried about a few skunks being nuked. If they're using the same broadcast towers, sheesh, they go from 5 million watts ERP to 1 million max. That means they drop 80% of the ERP pwer, and obviously a very significant amount of actual electricity as well.


Unreal.


Sregener: VHF-Hi is probably best without interference. Are you talking about electrical interference/atmospherics or multipath? If multipath, you'd be better off with a parabolic dish. I wish stations would just go 2000' with their towers

and 1 million watts instead of 1,000' or 1,500'. Then again, sadly, they typically don't care about rural listeners. Being one 60 miles west of Chicago, I sympathize with that one.


As for the northeastern U.S.: Absolutely. A ton of interference will go away, but definitely not all after analog shutdown.


----------



## billinabnett

Yes Max, there is an amp for each 8-bay antenna... but remember due to modifying the feeds and removing the center part of the antenna, i have used a 300-75 balun at the center of each 4-bay section. Then with exactly equal lengths out of the balun, these feed a 2-way combiner which then feeds the amp. Thus placing a 75 ohm match to the balun. In the total quad setup, there is 8 baluns (Each 2 feeding a 2-way combiner and then feeding a 7775.


----------



## billinabnett

I agree about the phasing aspects CPCAT. If i need the low loss combiner, i will get one. I have currently a 2 way UHF one from Lindsay and will see if that is beneficial.. I am not convinced that will be needed considering each leg of the combiner is the output of the amp. Also, the downleads will all be equal in length.... Also, i use the Spectrum Analyser and insure the levels hitting the inputs match as closely as possible. All of that as previously been considered in our plans.

Thanks for the input.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> this post interests me GREATLY. I'm in a topographically challenged (ok neighbors house in the way) area and my fox station at 2 degrees off every other channel is low on wattage. Also WB at channel 54 is low power and 67NBC just gets goofy at times. If these channels Must up their power next year, this would help me a lot
> 
> 
> So in the Philly area will this happen?



Philadelphia is in the top-10 markets, and all major networks (including NBC, but not WB) were required to be full powered a few years back; the 7/1/05 deadline was a last-ditch, last minute deal. Those stations are probably already maximized (check your local thread for confirmation) due to interference protection in the crowded NE. I wouldn't look for any dramatic improvements from the big 4 until the analog shutdown.


The FCC shows WPHL-DT as being full-powered (i.e. licensed) at 500kw, although depending on your direction it could be half of that because they have chosen not to blast a strong signal to the W and NE. Still, with a good setup and some luck, you shouldn't have any trouble getting a 250kw station at 50 miles.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sregener: VHF-Hi is probably best without interference. Are you talking about electrical interference/atmospherics or multipath? If multipath, you'd be better off with a parabolic dish.



Electrical interference? Check. FM interference? Check. Multipath? Nope.


Parabolic dishes suck for directionality. Really, truly, they do.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *billinabnett* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes Max, there is an amp for each 8-bay antenna... but remember due to modifying the feeds and removing the center part of the antenna, i have used a 300-75 balun at the center of each 4-bay section. Then with exactly equal lengths out of the balun, these feed a 2-way combiner which then feeds the amp. Thus placing a 75 ohm match to the balun. In the total quad setup, there is 8 baluns (Each 2 feeding a 2-way combiner and then feeding a 7775.



OK,now I understand.Will be interesting to see how this works.I'd still like to know what your intended target is for this array.You mentioned you're in East Texas.Thanks.


----------



## sebenste




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Electrical interference? Check. FM interference? Check. Multipath? Nope.
> 
> 
> Parabolic dishes suck for directionality. Really, truly, they do.



FM interference, FM trap. I'm 2 miles from a 20 kw FM. I have to trap them out.


Electrical? Where is it coming from? If it's the power company, they are violating FCC rules. Call 'em on it!


Parabolics suck for directionality? Then how do they achieve such an awesome gain? Directionality and gain go hand-in-hand, pretty much.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Parabolic dishes suck for directionality. Really, truly, they do.



Well,not altogether true.They have very good directionality in the direction they're pointed,with a very deep null a few degrees on either side of the main gain lobe.With a solid reflector to block signals off the backside,they would be great,but we all know what problems that would create.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> FM interference, FM trap. I'm 2 miles from a 20 kw FM. I have to trap them out.
> 
> 
> Electrical? Where is it coming from? If it's the power company, they are violating FCC rules. Call 'em on it!
> 
> 
> Parabolics suck for directionality? Then how do they achieve such an awesome gain? Directionality and gain go hand-in-hand, pretty much.



Got the FM trap. Still penetrating. Strongly. Pointing the antenna in some directions, I can listen to classical music on Channel 8. But they're not the only problem station, since I've got the same interference on channel 9.


Electrical interference is really hard to track down, but I've got it in spades. I see "sparklies" consistent with impulse noise all the way up to channel 45 on analog signals. According to the installer, my entire city is blanketed in it. Some of it is from those invisible fences. Some is from noisy appliances like microwaves and refrigerators. Some of it is undoubtably from the power company themselves, but trying to get that resolved is a black hole - the FCC won't do anything, the power company "can't find any problems," the city owns the power company, and so it goes. On rainy days, though, it sometimes completely disappears.


Parabolics are very directional in the direction they are aimed. However, they have very poor front-to-back ratios when compared to other systems, undoubtably due to their porous screens and the fact that their active element is "aimed" backwards. They also accept multipath from a wide range, making them a horrible choice for most digital tuners.


----------



## rgathright

What would be causing "dots" to be running across my screen with my antenna? I know FM interferance is herringbone shaped. This happens on my lower (4 & 6) stations.


----------



## sebenste




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Got the FM trap. Still penetrating. Strongly. Pointing the antenna in some directions, I can listen to classical music on Channel 8. But they're not the only problem station, since I've got the same interference on channel 9.
> 
> 
> Electrical interference is really hard to track down, but I've got it in spades. I see "sparklies" consistent with impulse noise all the way up to channel 45 on analog signals. According to the installer, my entire city is blanketed in it. Some of it is from those invisible fences. Some is from noisy appliances like microwaves and refrigerators. Some of it is undoubtably from the power company themselves, but trying to get that resolved is a black hole - the FCC won't do anything, the power company "can't find any problems," the city owns the power company, and so it goes. On rainy days, though, it sometimes completely disappears.
> 
> 
> Parabolics are very directional in the direction they are aimed. However, they have very poor front-to-back ratios when compared to other systems, undoubtably due to their porous screens and the fact that their active element is "aimed" backwards. They also accept multipath from a wide range, making them a horrible choice for most digital tuners.



Sregener,


Time for the heavy artillery. Quad-shielded RG-6 and a 50dB FM trap

(or maybe two 20 dB FM traps in series?) will help here. The latter trick

I had to do with a guy who lives down the street from a 5KW FM at 90.9

to get it to work. 20 db reduction still caused the classic herringbone on analog VHF and "cliffing" on DTV. An additional 10 dB FM attenuator in series got it to a manageable level that barely was visible on analog, and didn't interfere at all with DTV.


As for the sparklies, I have noise suppressors on some of my appliances and that helps with VHF...I would assume it does for UHF. Man, I think today's appliances are awesome but I just wish they'd shield them from outgoing RF better!


As for the parabolics, you usually get reduced multipath because the thing is above your house, although I understand your difficulty in your situation (and that of the lower F-B ratio). Would a 5th generation tuner help you? I assume so.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rgathright* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What would be causing "dots" to be running across my screen with my antenna? I know FM interferance is herringbone shaped. This happens on my lower (4 & 6) stations.



Analog reception, right? It's probably impulse noise. If your house isn't generating it, there isn't much you can do.


----------



## Noisykid

I have an old antenna on my roof that was here when I bought the house 4 years ago. I have no idea when it was made or who makes it. Looks like it may have a rotor by I have no controller. Never got around to taking it down and am now wondering if it is at all useful for OTA HD. Maybe I could just aim it once, lock it and leave it. Image link below. Thoughts?


Pic:


----------



## rgathright




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Analog reception, right? It's probably impulse noise. If your house isn't generating it, there isn't much you can do.



So a stronger antenna will not help? Yes, it is the analog stations, being all of my HDTV's are in Texas.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rgathright* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So a stronger antenna will not help? Yes, it is the analog stations, being all of my HDTV's are in Texas.



Nope. Might even make it worse.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Nope. Might even make it worse.



OK,let's backup a little bit.Poster should have provided more detailed info.He's running a 4228 and experiencing poor reception on CH4 and 6(35-40mi).If he's running a 7777 preamp he needs to add a VHF antenna like a Winegard PR5030 below the 4228,assuming,of course,that it's outside where it should be.


Edit:

I just noticed you already told him in another post that he needed a VHF antenna.Don't know if he added one or not.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Electrical interference is really hard to track down.....



No it's not. Power company technicians (who have a clue) can easily track it down to the specific pole. I've had this done here in Silicon Valley.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Parabolics are very directional in the direction they are aimed. However, they have very poor front-to-back ratios when compared to other systems, undoubtably due to their porous screens and the fact that their active element is "aimed" backwards. They also accept multipath from a wide range, making them a horrible choice for most digital tuners.



More BS. Instead of just posting your gut feelings about things, how about some factual evidence instead. Even a simulation would be useful.


Ron


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1) No it's not. Power company technicians (who have a clue) can easily track it down to the specific pole. I've had this done here in Silicon Valley.
> 
> 
> 2) More BS. Instead of just posting your gut feelings about things, how about some factual evidence instead. Even a simulation would be useful.



1) Maybe it's easy when there's one source. I heard that a technician came down from the Twin Cities once and found a dozen problems in one block. The fact is, the entire city of Rochester, MN is one RF nightmare for interference. Whole blocks of the shortwave spectrum are drowned out. "Sparklies" interference, multicolored horizontal lines running up the screen, are on all the VHF channels. The local cable company invested thousands of dollars in expensive filters to provide a clean picture on channels 3, 6 and 10, but the cost is picture quality - the resulting pictures are really blurred. Now if you want to come out here and get a problem fixed that the local cable company gave up on, be my guest.


2) Hey, I've never owned a parabolic. I'm basing my understanding of their problems based on GlennL's famous tests done in California in 2001. The 4251 was a dog for local stations, but did very well for weak, distant ones. That's consistent with having multipath problems. You can read his report here: http://www.atechfabrication.com/test...st_results.htm The relevant quote: "4251 best long distance capability, but not good for multipath."


GlennL did a bunch of other tests, the results of which were discussed here at length at the time, and he became convinced that the 4251 could be bested by a yagi, and his ATF-X300 proved it. He never produced many of them, though.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rgathright* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What would be causing "dots" to be running across my screen with my antenna? I know FM interferance is herringbone shaped. This happens on my lower (4 & 6) stations.




The following is quoted from the Interference handbook that was issued by the FCC many years ago. I am a fan of the alternate method to troubleshoot the problem it is several paragraphs down the page.


a. Electrical Interference


Electrical interference many times will be seen as two or three horizontal lines on the television screen and may be accompanied by a loud buzzing or sizzling sound through the TV speakers or stereo system. Many times the lines move upwards on the television screen and may be on for hours at a time or for a few seconds at a time. In severe cases, the entire screen may be covered with rolling horizontal lines.


A simple way to discover if the source of interference is in your home, is by going to the main fuse or circuit breaker box in your home. Using your TV set or a portable AM radio, determine whether the interference is active. Electrical interference will sound about the same on an AM radio as it does on your TV so you can use a portable AM radio as a detector. Assuming the interference is occurring, you should follow these steps to identify the circuit in your house that has the device causing the interference. Be very careful to avoid contact within anything in the box except the fuses or circuit breakers. Remove one fuse at a time, or shut off one circuit breaker at a time. If the interference stays on, turn the circuit breaker back on and try the next. If you are using your television to know that the interference is active, when you turn off the power to the circuit that supplies power to your TV to test that circuit, plug the TV into another circuit.


If the interference stops when a fuse is removed or a circuit breaker is turned off, go to the area that receives the electricity supplied by the disconnected circuit. Turn the power back on and wait until the interference is present. Next unplug each device on the circuit one at a time. If the interference stops after you unplug a device, you have found the culprit. The device causing the interference must be repaired or replaced. Remember that the device might be hidden. For example, you may have a bad amplifier in your attic, or a defective doorbell transformer that is connected directly to the power circuit.


An alternative method to locating electrical interference is to tune to a quiet frequency at the lower end of the AM dial. If you hear static or a buzzing sound, check to see if it corresponds with the interference to your TV or telephone. If it does, use the portable radio as a detection device to locate the source of the interference.


The noise will be loudest in the room where the interference is originating. Unplug each electrical device in the room one by one until the interference stops.


If you cannot locate the interference source in your own house, check with your neighbors to see if they also receive interference. The house that has the worst interference will most likely be the source of the interference. If your neighbor has strong interference, you may wish to try to track it down with a portable AM radio or run the circuit breaker test described above.


If you determine that the interference is not caused by any device in your home or that of your neighbors, contact the customer service department of your local power company.


----------



## rgathright




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> OK,let's backup a little bit.Poster should have provided more detailed info.He's running a 4228 and experiencing poor reception on CH4 and 6(35-40mi).If he's running a 7777 preamp he needs to add a VHF antenna like a Winegard PR5030 below the 4228,assuming,of course,that it's outside where it should be.
> 
> 
> Edit:
> 
> I just noticed you already told him in another post that he needed a VHF antenna.Don't know if he added one or not.



Right now I have a combination VHF/UHF and the CM 4228. These are both connected to the CM 7777. I thought that getting a bigger VHF antenna it might help the low VHF channels.


----------



## sriggins

Does anyone have opinions on this antenna?

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 


I have a BBQ/Bowtie up in the attic now. I get all stations well except 2-1 (43) which is on the same tower as other stations I get. The signal bounces on my DirecTiVo from the high 70s to low 90s. Thanks


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am a fan of the alternate method to troubleshoot the problem it is several paragraphs down the page.
> 
> 
> "An alternative method to locating electrical interference is to tune to a quiet frequency at the lower end of the AM dial. If you hear static or a buzzing sound, check to see if it corresponds with the interference to your TV or telephone. If it does, use the portable radio as a detection device to locate the source of the interference.
> 
> 
> The noise will be loudest in the room where the interference is originating. Unplug each electrical device in the room one by one until the interference stops.
> 
> 
> If you cannot locate the interference source in your own house, check with your neighbors to see if they also receive interference. The house that has the worst interference will most likely be the source of the interference."



Useful if a lot of people have antennas. There are 3 antennas in a six square block area around my house. And yes, they all have interference as well. Everyone in town has it.


AM interference is pervasive - it's everywhere in town. Walking around with a radio shows that it increases and decreases, but not in a predictable pattern. There are pockets where it's not bad, but those are few and far between.


I've done the circuit breaker test. It isn't in my house.


Still, good stuff for those who might have a single source problem.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sriggins* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does anyone have opinions on this antenna?
> 
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search
> 
> 
> I have a BBQ/Bowtie up in the attic now. I get all stations well except 2-1 (43) which is on the same tower as other stations I get. The signal bounces on my DirecTiVo from the high 70s to low 90s. Thanks



It works fine if there's no terrain problem and the distance to the transmitters is nominal. I have the slightly larger U-100. (old model #) It's been on my roof for 20 years.


----------



## Ennui

sriggins:


That looks like a junior version of the antenna I am using:

http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/hd9095p.pdf 


The Winegard works very well with their AP-8275 preamp for my location picking up LA stations some 70-90 miles away. (With a rotator; it is very sharp.)


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Useful if a lot of people have antennas. There are 3 antennas in a six square block area around my house. And yes, they all have interference as well. Everyone in town has it.
> 
> 
> AM interference is pervasive - it's everywhere in town. Walking around with a radio shows that it increases and decreases, but not in a predictable pattern. There are pockets where it's not bad, but those are few and far between.
> 
> 
> Still, good stuff for those who might have a single source problem.



OK, next step. Use your car radio to drive around town and try the same thing. You will probably find more than one source.


In some cases, power companies have used a flawed method to connect transformers to distribution wires. The ones once used by Niagara-Mohawk were square, with the transformer connected at the bottom and the distribution wire at the top. They clipped on the wire and were not bolted on. Each and every one had to be replaced to cure the problems.


Once I was able to cure line noise temporarily by hitting a bad pole with a sledge hammer. (Don't get caught.) Thankfully, the wires didn't fall on top of me.


The power companies can be fined by the FCC if they fail to fix the problem.


----------



## TheRatPatrol




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sriggins* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does anyone have opinions on this antenna?
> 
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search
> 
> 
> I have a BBQ/Bowtie up in the attic now. I get all stations well except 2-1 (43) which is on the same tower as other stations I get. The signal bounces on my DirecTiVo from the high 70s to low 90s. Thanks



I have that antenna on my roof right now, it works great for picking up UHF only stations, and its not that obtursive.


----------



## TheRatPatrol




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Noisykid* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have an old antenna on my roof that was here when I bought the house 4 years ago. I have no idea when it was made or who makes it. Looks like it may have a rotor by I have no controller. Never got around to taking it down and am now wondering if it is at all useful for OTA HD. Maybe I could just aim it once, lock it and leave it. Image link below. Thoughts?
> 
> 
> Pic:



I say plug it in and see what you get. It should get you an HD signal. It looks like its already aimed at the towers. You think it has a rotar, are there stations at different locations in your area?


----------



## sriggins




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *theratpatrol* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have that antenna on my roof right now, it works great for picking up UHF only stations, and its not that obtursive.



Thanks


----------



## TheRatPatrol




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sriggins* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks



Do you have a pretty clear view of the towers?


----------



## sriggins




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *theratpatrol* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do you have a pretty clear view of the towers?



I have no idea. There are some 2 story (3 if you count the attic I guess) townhouses in that direction, beyond that I guess it is pretty clear. I don't have any topo info.


Annoyingly KOIN is fine and it is on the same tower.


----------



## TheRatPatrol




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sriggins* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have no idea. There are some 2 story (3 if you count the attic I guess) townhouses in that direction, beyond that I guess it is pretty clear. I don't have any topo info.
> 
> 
> Annoyingly KOIN is fine and it is on the same tower.



You can try www.antennaweb.org to see what you can get.


----------



## sriggins




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *theratpatrol* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You can try www.antennaweb.org to see what you can get.



I did that and told it i had stuff in the way. It says I need a red, medium directional antenna.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> OK, next step. Use your car radio to drive around town and try the same thing. You will probably find more than one source.
> 
> 
> In some cases, power companies have used a flawed method to connect transformers to distribution wires. The ones once used by Niagara-Mohawk were square, with the transformer connected at the bottom and the distribution wire at the top. They clipped on the wire and were not bolted on. Each and every one had to be replaced to cure the problems.
> 
> 
> Once I was able to cure line noise temporarily by hitting a bad pole with a sledge hammer. (Don't get caught.) Thankfully, the wires didn't fall on top of me.
> 
> 
> The power companies can be fined by the FCC if they fail to fix the problem.



The trick that the PG&E technician showed me was to use a radio that could tune through the VHF and UHF spectrum. As he tracked the source, he would tune the radio to progressively higher frequencies to pinpoint the offending power pole.


In Silicon Valley, the typical problem is arcing on the insulators due to pollution deposits. The fix is to actually clean the insulators.


BTW, if the noise goes away during rain, this is a sure sign of power line arcing. The rain temporarily disrupts the arc path. Noise can also come and go during the day as the dew point changes.


PG&E was very willing to fix these problems. Power line arcing expends electricity that does not get billed to anyone. It's in their best interest to repair arcing since it directly affects their bottom line.


When I had my problems repaired, there was a special guy that handled all the complaints. He had helped so many amateur radio operators, that the big Northern California DX club threw him a huge party when he retired, even though he wasn't a ham himself.


Ron


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> OK, next step. Use your car radio to drive around town and try the same thing. You will probably find more than one source.



I've done it. It's everywhere.


I'll post a pic of the transformer (I'm lucky I have one in my backyard) tomorrow. I'd do it now, but that pesky ball of gas 93 million miles away is having trouble penetrating the earth.


----------



## rwantennasat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Noisykid* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have an old antenna on my roof that was here when I bought the house 4 years ago. I have no idea when it was made or who makes it. Looks like it may have a rotor by I have no controller. Never got around to taking it down and am now wondering if it is at all useful for OTA HD. Maybe I could just aim it once, lock it and leave it. Image link below. Thoughts?
> 
> 
> Pic:



Looks like an older TDP antenna. they work pretty well depending on your distance from stations. You should replace the coax and put a good new transformer at the antenna and it should work out. if all stations in same direction then dont worry about rotor


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The trick that the PG&E technician showed me was to use a radio that could tune through the VHF and UHF spectrum. As he tracked the source, he would tune the radio to progressively higher frequencies to pinpoint the offending power pole.
> 
> 
> In Silicon Valley, the typical problem is arcing on the insulators due to pollution deposits. The fix is to actually clean the insulators.
> 
> 
> BTW, if the noise goes away during rain, this is a sure sign of power line arcing. The rain temporarily disrupts the arc path. Noise can also come and go during the day as the dew point changes.
> 
> 
> PG&E was very willing to fix these problems. Power line arcing expends electricity that does not get billed to anyone. It's in their best interest to repair arcing since it directly affects their bottom line.
> 
> 
> When I had my problems repaired, there was a special guy that handled all the complaints. He had helped so many amateur radio operators, that the big Northern California DX club threw him a huge party when he retired, even though he wasn't a ham himself.
> 
> 
> Ron



When I had TVI problems last year the power company sent a dedicated tech(70mi) to look for problems.The interference was so sporadic(15-30sec bursts several times a day-some days nothing) he couldn't find anything initially.He made three trips before we found the problem.It was an old house about 200ft away with old post and tube wiring in the attic that was intermittently arcing(coronal arc).


The interference would tear up all the tv channels with VHF being the worst.Two large static bands on the screen with audible noise.The equipment he used was a 3 element yagi and a receiver tuned to around 220-230 Mhz.When I walked around the neighborhood with a portable radio I could pick up the noise better on FM than AM but never could pinpoint the source.He happened to be standing in front of the guys house when the arc kicked in,so he went over to the meter base and that thing he had went nuts.


Needless to say,I was impressed.The tech said that most problems he finds come from within someone's home.


----------



## billinabnett




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> OK,now I understand.Will be interesting to see how this works.I'd still like to know what your intended target is for this array.You mentioned you're in East Texas.Thanks.



Have Not.... Want Not... Seriously... being in experimental mode, we will just have to see the performance marks as they fall... I wish it would warm up so i can get it up on the tower....


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rgathright* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Right now I have a combination VHF/UHF and the CM 4228. These are both connected to the CM 7777. I thought that getting a bigger VHF antenna it might help the low VHF channels.



Are you sure you need a preamplifier for VHF? And if you do, do you need as much as the 7777 gives? Removing the preamp might make that static go away (or at least greatly reduce it.) Note: you must remove the outdoor unit. Unplugging the indoor unit will not work for testing; the outdoor unit needs power to pass a signal.


If removing the preamp improves things but you still need the amplification on UHF, I'd try a Winegard AP-4700 or -4800. You'd also need a Channel Master #0549 to combine the UHF and combo antennas as the Winegards don't have separate inputs.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Time for the heavy artillery. Quad-shielded RG-6 and a 50dB FM trap (or maybe two 20 dB FM traps in series?) will help here. The latter trick
> 
> I had to do with a guy who lives down the street from a 5KW FM at 90.9
> 
> to get it to work. 20 db reduction still caused the classic herringbone on analog VHF and "cliffing" on DTV. An additional 10 dB FM attenuator in series got it to a manageable level that barely was visible on analog, and didn't interfere at all with DTV.
> 
> 
> As for the sparklies, I have noise suppressors on some of my appliances and that helps with VHF...I would assume it does for UHF. Man, I think today's appliances are awesome but I just wish they'd shield them from outgoing RF better!



I've already done better than quad-RG6. I've got quad-RG11. I'm debating getting a VHF-hi/VHF-lo combiner and leaving the VHF-lo side "dancing in the wind."


But that won't resolve the sparklies, which I suspect are a much more difficult problem for distant reception. The FM interference, at least, is constant - it doesn't change. But the moving sparklies will confuse the heck out of a tuner that is already suffering from a weak signal. As I've stated elsewhere, the RF interference is not coming from my house.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As for the parabolics, you usually get reduced multipath because the thing is above your house, although I understand your difficulty in your situation (and that of the lower F-B ratio). Would a 5th generation tuner help you? I assume so.



I can't put a parabolic on my tower - it couldn't handle the windload (6 ft-lbs max). I'm 54' AGL right now.


I'm actually intrigued by the Samsung Gemini chipset, as it appears to be a major step up at receiving weak signals. But you know the story; it's been tested but there are no production devices with it...


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm debating getting a VHF-hi/VHF-lo combiner and leaving the VHF-lo side "dancing in the wind."
> 
> 
> .



That's the best way to get rid of FM that I've been able to find. The disadvantage obviously is you lose low band but most don't need it. It's too prone to interference and the antennas required are too damn huge anyway. It does "get out" though.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In some cases, power companies have used a flawed method to connect transformers to distribution wires. The ones once used by Niagara-Mohawk were square, with the transformer connected at the bottom and the distribution wire at the top. They clipped on the wire and were not bolted on. Each and every one had to be replaced to cure the problems.



Here she is...


(I apologize for the sideways picture, but apparently the web site isn't bright enough to know that a 480x720 picture is *SMALLER* than an 800x600, the maximum size permitted.)


Let me know if you need a closeup of any part, as I can crop the 6MP image for details.


----------



## bernieoc

I have a single ch Taco 5y3s (ch 3) and a Wineguard PR 8800 (8bay UHF) on the way. I also have a CM 7777 to combine them.

If the CM 7777 is not needed or creates harm:

A- VHF needs it

B- UHF needs it

C- neither needs it

How would I combine them? A two way splitter in reverse or a CM 0549 combiner.

I picked the PR8800 because it looks good for low UHF (I receive ch 18 thru 36) and hope it will cover a 30 deg spread (47 miles and 23 miles). The ch 3 antenna is for a flakey PBS at 47 miles.

At the risk of putting too much into one post - One more question.

A while back a comment explained why Pr 8800 and DB 8 were not as good on high VHF as the CM 4228 (I have one UHF that may revert to CH 10 or 13). Something about a non continuous screen?

Is there a modification I could make to change that without needing a metal fabrication shop?

By the way, this forum has made 'me' an antenna information source for my children, grandchildren and friends. Isn't that a laugh!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bernieoc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a single ch Taco 5y3s (ch 3) and a Wineguard PR 8800 (8bay UHF) on the way. I also have a CM 7777 to combine them.
> 
> If the CM 7777 is not needed or creates harm:
> 
> A- VHF needs it
> 
> B- UHF needs it
> 
> C- neither needs it
> 
> How would I combine them?
> 
> 
> A while back a comment explained why Pr 8800 and DB 8 were not as good on high VHF as the CM 4228 (I have one UHF that may revert to CH 10 or 13). Something about a non continuous screen?



If C, a simple splitter will suffice. You only need a simple splitter/combiner, used in reverse. The VHF Ch3 antenna won't pick up enough UHF to matter, and vice versa.


If A & B, just plug each into the appropriate connector on the 7777 (it has one for VHF and one for UHF.)


If you need just UHF or VHF amplification, it's going to be tricky with the 7777. You need to do the combination *after* the indoor unit, which means running two lengths of coax from your antennas to wherever the indoor unit is. Then, you can combine the amplified UHF or VHF with the unamplified VHF or UHF with a simple splitter/combiner.


I wouldn't worry about the hi-VHF at this point. If it becomes a problem later, you could add a hi-VHF antenna to the mix.


----------



## holl_ands

If you look at the recently updated NEC Simulation results at the bottom of the fol webpage,

you'll see that the PR8800 has about as much gain as a pair of rabbit ears across the upper VHF band:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


So if the future VHF stations aren't too far away, the PR8800 may be adequate.


Someone would need to do some additional NEC simulations for the PR8800 and DB-8 to investigate whether

various modifications improve performance in VHF bands....and at what detriment to UHF performance.


Since the PR8800 utilizes resonating rear reflector elements, like a classic Yagi-Uda antenna,

I would expect to see the UHF performance severly affected if you simply interconnect the PR8800's

individual reflector elements into a single long reflector rod.


Sound like a simple exercise for the NEC student.....


==================================================

FYI: Click on the CM-4228 to see the mixed results for interconnected and

non-interconnected rear screen results. This comparison was very recently added.


However, these are computer SIMULATIONS and hence are subject to the GIGO effect.

For example, if you look at the source files (see top of webpage for link), you'll see that

the (older Mar05) CM4228 file doesn't include the horizontal support bars that interconnect

the two 4-Bay sections and also acts as an (intermittent) short across the two back screens (see attached photo).


I suspect that the Mar05 file is for the original results and does not reflect the recent revisions

for CM4228 results with and without interconnected screens.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you look at the recently updated NEC Simulation results at the bottom of the fol webpage,
> 
> you'll see that the PR8800 has about as much gain as a pair of rabbit ears across the upper VHF band:
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Rabbit ears properly extended horizontally to match approx 1/2 wave tip to tip for the desired vhf channel will provide around 2dbi gain (or 0dbd by definition). The simulation shows between -8 and -1 dbi gain for the PR8800 in the high vhf band.


The "rabbit ears" graph depiction on the simulation assumes they are positioned at a 45 degree angle and extended to 40 inches, i.e. not utilized to their fullest for the desired channel.

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Philadelphia is in the top-10 markets, and all major networks (including NBC, but not WB) were required to be full powered a few years back; the 7/1/05 deadline was a last-ditch, last minute deal. Those stations are probably already maximized (check your local thread for confirmation) due to interference protection in the crowded NE. I wouldn't look for any dramatic improvements from the big 4 until the analog shutdown.
> 
> 
> The FCC shows WPHL-DT as being full-powered (i.e. licensed) at 500kw, although depending on your direction it could be half of that because they have chosen not to blast a strong signal to the W and NE. Still, with a good setup and some luck, you shouldn't have any trouble getting a 250kw station at 50 miles.



here's a list of my stations. I can't get 54 and 42 in reliably but have acceptable readings on the rest. So once there's a shutdown, will those power readings go up to 1000? And if you are saying 500 is the max now, I guess I"m screwed on 54 as they have nowhere to go. Amazing that I get channel 32 with only 250 watts because of the height I'm assuming.

Code:


Code:


uhf  station  signal  power  height
26 (cbs3)    90-92      770/375
31 (pax61)   90-91       
32 (upn 57)  85-90      250/400
34 (wbye35)  80-85      358/377
42 (fox 29)  25-45      305/161
54 (wb 17)   40-60      500/354
64 (abc 6)   71+      500/390
67 (nbc10)   71+      560/377


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I can't get 54 and 42 in reliably but have acceptable readings on the rest. So once there's a shutdown, will those power readings go up to 1000? And if you are saying 500 is the max now, I guess I"m screwed on 54 as they have nowhere to go. Amazing that I get channel 32 with only 250 watts because of the height I'm assuming.
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> uhf  station  signal  power  height
> 26 (cbs3)    90-92      770/375
> 31 (pax61)   90-91
> 32 (upn 57)  85-90      250/400
> 34 (wbye35)  80-85      358/377
> 42 (fox 29)  25-45      305/161
> 54 (wb 17)   40-60      500/354
> 64 (abc 6)   71+      500/390
> 67 (nbc10)   71+      560/377



WPHL-DT-54 will revert to channel 17. How much power they will apply remains to be seen. Their current allocation at 54, however, is at maximum power and will not increase.


While 1000kw is the maximum allowed ERP for a digital UHF station, no station is required to put out that much signal. I would guess that most of those stations are limited by neighboring markets, and they might get a little more "leg room" once the analogs go away.


As you correctly guessed, Fox's minimal antenna height is the real problem. Broadcasting power takes second place to antenna height for reception. They have an application to increase power to 1000kw, and they have a construction permit to go up to 280m. Things may improve with them before the analog shutdown.


Your local OTA thread is probably a better place to get specific information about the specific channels in your market.


I don't think you've listed your receiving equipment (antenna, preamp, tuner model) but you may be able to improve your results by upgrading any of them that are inferior. I noticed remarkable improvements moving my antenna from my roof to a 54' tower, but not everyone has as understanding a wife as I do.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I can't put a parabolic on my tower - it couldn't handle the windload (6 ft-lbs max). I'm 54' AGL right now.



That tower of yours can handle almost 4X more than you have up there right now,though I wouldn't recommend a 7ft parabolic.The BX-48 is apparently what you have,with about 6ft of masting above the apex,which puts your XG91 at 54ft.That tower is rated at 6sq.ft./120lb lateral wind force @70mph,with the antenna mass centered 3ft above the apex.The XG91 is only 1.5 sq.ft. and has about 35lbs of wind force at its max rating of 80mph.That's why you don't see it moving around much when the wind is blowing.


You could easily add a Band A antenna(less than 2sq.ft.) below the XG91 and improve all those problematic channels below 38.


I found a pic of your tower.Looks like it has a rotor shelf.If you ever redo things,I would explore the possibilty of using that shelf for the rotor,and use a thrust bearing at the apex.


Just some thoughts.


Tower pic:
http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/a...043&fullpage=1 


Rohn BX tower spec:
http://www.antennasystems.com/bxload.html


----------



## rgathright




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are you sure you need a preamplifier for VHF? And if you do, do you need as much as the 7777 gives? Removing the preamp might make that static go away (or at least greatly reduce it.) Note: you must remove the outdoor unit. Unplugging the indoor unit will not work for testing; the outdoor unit needs power to pass a signal.
> 
> 
> If removing the preamp improves things but you still need the amplification on UHF, I'd try a Winegard AP-4700 or -4800. You'd also need a Channel Master #0549 to combine the UHF and combo antennas as the Winegards don't have separate inputs.



I have a spare Rat Shack amp so may try it in place of the CM 7777 on just the CM 4228. Would a separate VHF work better than a combo VHF/UHF being I have the CM 4228 for the UHF?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That tower of yours can handle almost 4X more than you have up there right now,though I wouldn't recommend a 7ft parabolic.
> 
> 
> You could easily add a Band A antenna(less than 2sq.ft.) below the XG91 and improve all those problematic channels below 38.
> 
> 
> I found a pic of your tower.Looks like it has a rotor shelf.If you ever redo things,I would explore the possibilty of using that shelf for the rotor,and use a thrust bearing at the apex.



I had a Winegard HD8200P up there before the 91XG. That thing really swayed. The 91XG still moves around a good bit, but wind here can be downright nasty. I haven't watched it while the tornado sirens have been going off, though - I prefer to watch the radar from the storm shelter.


I don't have many problematic channels below 38. In fact, the 91XG does a really good job on most of those channels. My biggest problem channel is 50, but that probably has more to do with their transmitting antenna issues than my receiving setup. WHLA-DT, for instance, isn't supposed to get close to Rochester ( http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DS658573.html ) on channel 30, but the days I don't get a solid lock are few and far between. WCCO-DT (32) from the Twin Cities also isn't supposed to get close to Rochester, but they are my most reliable station from the Cities ( http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DT584286.html ).


I'll probably replace the antenna once they come out with yagi/corner-reflectors that are optimized for channel 51 instead of 67.


I didn't do the install - I hire professionals to do the tower work. The thrust bearing is a good idea, though.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Rabbit ears properly extended horizontally to match approx 1/2 wave tip to tip for the desired vhf channel will provide around 2dbi gain (or 0dbd by definition). The simulation shows between -8 and -1 dbi gain for the PR8800 in the high vhf band.
> 
> 
> The "rabbit ears" graph depiction on the simulation assumes they are positioned at a 45 degree angle and extended to 40 inches, i.e. not utilized to their fullest for the desired channel.
> 
> http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html



"Getting the Most out of Rabbit Ears" link addresses different orientation and lengths:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/R...s.html#Getting 

You lose about 2 dB by using the typical 40-45 degree vice co-linear position.


However, these are all "classic" free-space gain, presuming nothing is near the rabbit ear antenna.

You will probably lose even more if you lay the elements flat against your TV.

The nearby metal inside is going to effectively suck the signal out of the antenna.


And that is why most people have found, through many years of trial and error,

that the best orientation is like a pair of, well, Rabbit Ears....at about 40-45 degrees.

And unless you only have one VHF station to deal with, most people will extend it to one setting

and never try anything else (usually thinking more is better???).


The 45 degree angle also helps to pick up both the horizontal and vertical polarization (if any),

thereby providing a small amount of polarization diversity gain.


=================================================

FYI: Here are some links to ACTUAL ANTENNA MEASUREMENTS:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST18805


----------



## sebenste




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've already done better than quad-RG6. I've got quad-RG11. I'm debating getting a VHF-hi/VHF-lo combiner and leaving the VHF-lo side "dancing in the wind."
> 
> 
> But that won't resolve the sparklies, which I suspect are a much more difficult problem for distant reception. The FM interference, at least, is constant - it doesn't change. But the moving sparklies will confuse the heck out of a tuner that is already suffering from a weak signal. As I've stated elsewhere, the RF interference is not coming from my house.



Sregener,


As for the quad-shielded RG-11, 3 words: you're my hero!







Most excellent.

The FM interference, though constant, is a pain. Have you tried putting two traps in series to see if it helps you?


As for the sparklies, it almost sounds like one of those 100 kilovolt main trunk

lines goin g into town is royally messed up somewhere, which causes those over quite a wide area. THAT should be easy to find. Call up your power company and tell 'em to fix it!


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

You guys aren't going to believe this, but *for my reception* the 91XG IS NOT performing better than my R-S combo!










Even when testing, I _assumed_ it was a bit better just holding it in position, with a cable (60' I think) going directly to tuner, but not much better... Now in more even comparisons, it has yet to noticably outperform the R-S.


After I put the 91XG on a 5' eave-mounted mast, I didn't use the CM-7777 pre-amp yet, just to get an idea without. The first night, I did get to actually watch KDNL (channel chart below) basically for the first time during primetime. So that was better than the R-S, but the 91XG was also higher than the R-S had ever been. The next day I connected the old R-S 25db/6db noise amp in the basement after the ~60' cable (only about 12' after to the tuner). That improved things pretty well! The next day I swapped it for the 7777 in the basement also, to see how the 2db noise figure would improve things: about a notch or two on the DirecTV receiver signal meter, maybe "10%".


Before putting the 7777 on the mast, I wanted to compare the 91XG and R-S antennas under more of the same conditions than I had before. First both with no amp, then with, etc. I was shocked when without the amp, the R-S was as good or better, except on channel 26. With the amp, they're pretty much the same that I can't really say a difference, though I think the R-S might do _barely_ better on a couple channels (hitting the high side of the ranges below more often), except maybe on 26 still.

Code:


Code:


-- Signal Level --
Channel       Direction  Miles  ERP (kW)    91XG    R-S | w/CM-7777
KTVI 2  (43)  105.5      43.1     1000     63-69     69 |     86-93
KMOV 4  (56)  104.6      47.1     1000      0-30   0-36 |     69-77
KSDK 5  (35)  101.9      44.7      838        63     69 |     79-93
KETC 9  (39)  110.7      43.0      125      0-20   0-20 |     45-63
KPLR 11 (26)  101.4      45.0     1000     45-54   0-45 |     69-77
KDNL 30 (31)  100.8      44.7     1000     63-69     69 |     77-79
WRBU 46 (47)  121.5      41.6      109     45-63  45-63 |     63-69

Those readings were taken within an hour in the evening. The antennas have been pointed at about 105 degrees. The 91XG is aimed upward at about 3 degrees, which is probably a bit above the horizon approx. 3000' feet away.



Another thing I was really surprised about was that the signals were no higher with the 7777 on the mast than after 60' of RG-6?! I thought I might gain 6db, with 2db cable-loss, 2db VSWR (??), and moving the amp's 2db noise up the line...










The signal needs to be at 45-54 (fluctuating, not steady 45) to lock, and so this is the first time I've received KETC on 39 (during "regular hours") since early mornings with the R-S in the attic. Although it's been freezing/breaking up pretty often as I type this (with the 91XG up there now)...


Analog KDNL 30 looks the best it ever has -- the snow is pretty much all gone! Just a little noise/grain.


It looks like I'm just going to stick with the R-S (was gonna just be for analog VHFs) since it's providing fine reception now. Man, that 7777 is what really makes the difference!







But I don't know what to do with the 91XG.







It sounds like Solid Signal won't take back "items that you have installed or disassembled." Maybe a neighbor would buy it since he doesn't have an antenna yet for his new plasma.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> "Getting the Most out of Rabbit Ears" link addresses different orientation and lengths:
> 
> 
> The 45 degree angle also helps to pick up both the horizontal and vertical polarization (if any),
> 
> thereby providing a small amount of polarization diversity gain.
> 
> 
> If you look at the recently updated NEC Simulation results at the bottom of the fol webpage,
> 
> you'll see that the PR8800 has about as much gain as a pair of rabbit ears across the upper VHF band:
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html



0dbd gain by convention is referenced to a simple dipole and is equivalent to around 2dbi. Rabbit ears extended to the channel-specific length for vhf and positioned horizontally are equivalent to a simple dipole. The PR8800 has from -1 to -8 dbi gain across the high vhf band according to the computer simulation you referenced.


There are no vertically polarized TV transmitters in the US.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think you've listed your receiving equipment (antenna, preamp, tuner model) but you may be able to improve your results by upgrading any of them that are inferior.



Except for what is in my sig I only have a levitron 25db amp from home depot. I have it placed : DB8----75ft rg6----amp----50ft rg6---hr10-250


I do have the ability to put it right at the DB8 since i have an attic mount. Think that would make a difference? Or just keep it at the 75ft mark?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You guys aren't going to believe this, but *for my reception* the 91XG IS NOT performing better than my R-S combo!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first night, I did get to actually watch KDNL (channel chart below) basically for the first time during primetime.



Hmmm. Well.


The most important thing with any antenna system is location, location, location.


I would strongly urge you not to judge the 91XG too quickly. I ripped mine down before I realized just how much better the 91XG was. Still, there were times where reception on my rooftop with a Winegard 7084P was as good or better than the 91XG on a 54' tower. The atmosphere plays tricks on us, and the upper midwest was crackling last night, meaning a bowtie might have gotten you good results.


Test the 91XG during the daytime hours before you judge it as worthless.


The difference between a good antenna and a great one is usually subtle with digital reception. The fact that you locked on a station you never had before indicates to me that maybe the 91XG is better.


I would not tilt the 91XG, or any antenna for that matter, unless you have verified that gives you the best results. It is highly directional and a 3-degree difference will dramatically reduce its gain. Are you sure you aimed it precisely - not just eyeballed? I find for marginal stations, a 2-degree difference is all it takes to go from rock-solid to breakups. Yes, it's *that* sensitive. The Radio Shack probably is not that sensitive, as it has lower gain it will have a wider acceptance angle.


----------



## KSBugeater




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *colts2005* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> when did the fox affiliate go to full power? I have gotten it twice with a antennae with pre-amp someone gave me. It's really nothing more then rabbit ears--I have thought about an outdoor antennae but at this point it would only be for that fox station unless I could get an ABC station..
> 
> 
> I get nbc locally hi def with analog which is the only reason I uses the indoor antennae. Is anyone in topeka getting anything from ABC hi def?



I live in Meriden, 15 mi NE of Topeka, and I can get KMBC 9.1 out of KC with rabbit ears. Others in Topeka have reported getting 9.1 with Channel Master 4228. The local ABC affiliate does have a digital signal but does not broadcast Hi Def.


Curious: how do you get hi def with analog?


----------



## colts2005

analog is antenna right?


I switch back and forth between cox and what I call analog.


I got the new sony which gives me 4.1 infrequenty, 11.1,11.2,11.3, 13.1, 27.1, 44.3, and 49.1. 4.1, the 11's, 13.1, 44.3, and 27.1 are hid def. When I switch to cox obviously I can only get wibw hi def so in reality the only good my antennae does is give me nbc hi def and the occasional 4.1 fox hi def. abc looks better 49.1 then cox but at 480 pi is not going to be hi def. all digital channels on cox look good but my channes 2-73 have a little to be desired on a 60" screen


if you get a chance go check out the new sony sxrd--I got it from nebraska furniture mart initially but best buy matched the price here in topeka


----------



## sebenste




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sregener,
> 
> 
> As for the sparklies, it almost sounds like one of those 100 kilovolt main trunk
> 
> lines goin g into town is royally messed up somewhere, which causes those over quite a wide area. THAT should be easy to find. Call up your power company and tell 'em to fix it!



Sregener,


OK, I now saw the paragraph where you did call the power company. It almost sounds like the entire distribution system is old and leaking like a sieve. In northeastern Illinois, line noise was amazing, and still is in a number of areas, but our local power company is replacing every line. 3 or 4 years ago, the power would go out if you sneezed on a line, and the power company got fined huge. They had more reliable power in Baghdad and Beirut than in some areas around Chicago for a while. I wonder if that's the case with you? If it is, then I sympathize wholeheartedly, and I'd get the regulatory commission for your state to hound those guys to replace the lines (besides, if that is true, it's costing them huge bucks anyway!).


----------



## arxaw

An antenna can be used for analog and/or digital OverTheAir channels.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I wonder if that's the case with you? If it is, then I sympathize wholeheartedly, and I'd get the regulatory commission for your state to hound those guys to replace the lines (besides, if that is true, it's costing them huge bucks anyway!).



The power grid here has been fairly reliable.


If I really wanted those distant stations, I'd probably hound them, but I'll just do without. Sure, it'd be nice to get a CBS and NBC from Wisconsin, and a Fox and NBC from the Twin Cities, but I'll get all those networks from within my market just fine. Solving the impulse noise problem wouldn't resolve the FM problem, though, so I'd still be out of luck. And then there's the fact that I have a UHF-only antenna, so VHF "performance" isn't what it's cracked up to be.


This all started because somebody was excited about the analog shutdown, and my saying I'll lose more than I'll gain. I still think so. I'm just not willing to spend the time, energy, and money to fix the problems I have with hi-VHF. After all, that's why I went digital in the first place.


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 0dbd gain by convention is referenced to a simple dipole and is equivalent to around 2dbi. Rabbit ears extended to the channel-specific length for vhf and positioned horizontally are equivalent to a simple dipole. The PR8800 has from -1 to -8 dbi gain across the high vhf band according to the computer simulation you referenced.
> 
> 
> There are no vertically polarized TV transmitters in the US.



cpcat

Many US TV stations have a vertical component. VHF stations are often employ circular polarization with full power on both poles. UHF stations, when they employ a vertical component, tend to be elipticle with 15% or 25% power in the vertical radiators being common choices. However, there are far fewer UHF stations that use it because of the electric bill penalty.


Bob Chase


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> cpcat
> 
> Many US TV stations have a vertical component... However, there are far fewer UHF stations that use it because of the electric bill penalty.



I'm curious, what advantage does a vertical component offer? I'm thinking that is why a X works good as a VHF antenna, and rabbit ears work good (often better) at 45 degrees than at 90 degree as a true dipole. But still don't understand why a broadcaster would choose one way or the other on the vertical component.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> cpcat
> 
> Many US TV stations have a vertical component. VHF stations are often employ circular polarization with full power on both poles. UHF stations, when they employ a vertical component, tend to be elipticle with 15% or 25% power in the vertical radiators being common choices. However, there are far fewer UHF stations that use it because of the electric bill penalty.
> 
> 
> Bob Chase



I didn't say that none had a vertical component. I said that none were vertically polarized. I have at least one station (WJHL Bristol) which is elliptical. You can turn your antenna on its side if you want, I'll keep mine horizontal.


----------



## tivo1

for instnace.. im say 30-40 miles from most stations.. most are within 102 and 103 degrees, but there are a few at 108..


So i was wondering if i can get all these? or is it even worth climbing back up on the roof to try?


any input would be appreciated


----------



## tivo1

anyone? would kind of like to get things done today, if its a possibility.


----------



## pyedog




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tivo1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> anyone? would kind of like to get things done today, if its a possibility.



It depends on what antenna you use. If you mean that you have all of your stations within 6 degrees of the same direction, you should be fine. If you mean you have stations over 100 degrees apart it is a much tougher problem.


In addition, it depends on what is between you and the towers - I'd start by using www.antennaweb.com and see what they predict.


----------



## firemantom26

I just had a antenna guy stack two CM- 4228 vertically with equal length of coax going into a two way splitter than into my Channel Master 777 amp. The problem is it is worse now on reception than it was before. I am so frustrated on the work that he done, What could be wrong . Any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated .


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *firemantom26* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just had a antenna guy stack two CM- 4228 vertically with equal length of coax going into a two way splitter than into my Channel Master 777 amp. The problem is it is worse now on reception than it was before. I am so frustrated on the work that he done, What could be wrong . Any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated .



Well, it could be a 'phase' problem or maybe the combiner. Did you read this? 

....jc


----------



## firemantom26




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, it could be a 'phase' problem or maybe the combiner. Did you read this?
> 
> ....jc



Yes I have read this and I not sure what this means,also how much spacing between both antennas.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *firemantom26* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes I have read this and I not sure what this means,also how much spacing between both antennas.



The pics show the screens touching. Also, check the polarity:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HDTVPrimer...* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There is a chance that you will mix up the polarities such that the two antennas subtract instead of add. Doing this will result in two forward lobes, reduced in size, with a null straight out the front. After the antenna is fully hooked up, you should rotate the antenna to check for this pattern. If so then you have to reverse the connections on one of the antennas. The antennas come with a balun that has a China stamp on one side. I believe this stamp is the key to getting addition on the first try.



....jc


----------



## AntAltMike

It is surely easier for firemantom26 to swap the two leads on one of his baluns than to physically rotate one entire antenna. Also, he should make sure that he is using two physically identical baluns.


The vertical spacing between those two 8-bay bowtie antennas is relatively unimportant. Some people try to make sure that the spacing between the top bowties on the bottom antenna and the bottom bowties on the top antenna is the same as the vertical spacing of the bowtie elements within each antenna, and I think that might require that the screens overlap a little.


----------



## firemantom26




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It is surely easier for firemantom26 to swap the two leads on one of his baluns than to physically rotate one entire antenna. Also, he should make sure that he is using two physically identical baluns.
> 
> 
> The vertical spacing between those two 8-bay bowtie antennas is relatively unimportant. Some people try to make sure that the spacing between the top bowties on the bottom antenna and the bottom bowties on the top antenna is the same as the vertical spacing of the bowtie elements within each antenna, and I think that might require that the screens overlap a little.




folks what is this baluns that you are talking about, also the CM-7777 comes after the splitter right?


----------



## sebenste




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The power grid here has been fairly reliable.
> 
> 
> If I really wanted those distant stations, I'd probably hound them, but I'll just do without. Sure, it'd be nice to get a CBS and NBC from Wisconsin, and a Fox and NBC from the Twin Cities, but I'll get all those networks from within my market just fine. Solving the impulse noise problem wouldn't resolve the FM problem, though, so I'd still be out of luck. And then there's the fact that I have a UHF-only antenna, so VHF "performance" isn't what it's cracked up to be.
> 
> 
> This all started because somebody was excited about the analog shutdown, and my saying I'll lose more than I'll gain. I still think so. I'm just not willing to spend the time, energy, and money to fix the problems I have with hi-VHF. After all, that's why I went digital in the first place.



Sregener,


Power grid reliability may be fine, even if it's spewing a boatload of rf garbage into the air...and I suspect that's what is happening to you. Remember, as analog cell phones and other analog devices get turned off in 2009 (it won't be just DTV!), you may get a little less interference, especially as the stations go to even higher power. Don't rule out reliability just yet...there are too many variables

between now and February, 2009 (if that date holds).


----------



## firemantom26




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *firemantom26* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> folks what is this baluns that you are talking about, also the CM-7777 comes after the splitter right?




Did a google search on baluns.


You will have two wingnuts in the center of each antenna. Those should be hooked to two wires which then go into a small cylindrical structure (the balun). The coax then comes out of the balun. Reverse the wires to the wingnuts on one of the antennas and see if that makes the signal better.


Happy holidays to all and thank you for all your help.


----------



## Tatmtt2120

I am a noob with HD local channels and antennas. I currently have directv but I want my locals in HD so I am in need of an OTA antenna. I live on Beale AFB and antennaweb.org says I'm roughly 60 miles from the towers in Sacramenta, CA. For me to receive local channels in HD can I use an amplified indoor antenna or do I need to buy a more expensive outdoor antenna? I would like to stay under $50 if at all possible.


This was recommended to me by the circuitcity salesman:
http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Terk-...oductDetail.do 

or this one

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Terk-...oductDetail.do


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hmmm. Well.
> 
> 
> The most important thing with any antenna system is location, location, location.
> 
> 
> I would strongly urge you not to judge the 91XG too quickly. I ripped mine down before I realized just how much better the 91XG was. Still, there were times where reception on my rooftop with a Winegard 7084P was as good or better than the 91XG on a 54' tower. The atmosphere plays tricks on us, and the upper midwest was crackling last night, meaning a bowtie might have gotten you good results.
> 
> 
> Test the 91XG during the daytime hours before you judge it as worthless.
> 
> 
> The difference between a good antenna and a great one is usually subtle with digital reception. The fact that you locked on a station you never had before indicates to me that maybe the 91XG is better.
> 
> 
> I would not tilt the 91XG, or any antenna for that matter, unless you have verified that gives you the best results. It is highly directional and a 3-degree difference will dramatically reduce its gain. Are you sure you aimed it precisely - not just eyeballed? I find for marginal stations, a 2-degree difference is all it takes to go from rock-solid to breakups. Yes, it's *that* sensitive. The Radio Shack probably is not that sensitive, as it has lower gain it will have a wider acceptance angle.



I have had both antennas up during all hours of the day now.







It doesn't change much at all between day and night or anything like it did before the leaves fell off and it was warmer, etc.


I didn't call the 91XG worthless.







That's why I emphasized "for my reception." Using the 7777, I'm getting the station I never had before with either antenna. But it's just a bit higher reading with the Radio Shack -- caused somewhat by being more off-axis than the other channels, and the R-S is less directional...


As far as the angles, going by the plots on HDTV Primer , 3-degrees tilt isn't going to make a difference.







I was just trying to slightly aim at the horizon. Yesterday before replacing the 91XG with the R-S again, I tried rotating it left and right by about 5-degrees. Only a minor change in signal levels (


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

I still have the old balun with cracked insulation and all on the Radio Shack antenna. I'm trying to figure out what better-than-Radio-Shack one to replace it with after seeing holl_ands' balun loss measurements . Of the ones tested, Lowes has the Philips on their site. Home Depot doesn't have the RCA on theirs (could be in-store?). And I can't find a CM "3075" -- the 0089 and 0090 are the models on their site -- same quality? Found one of them at Wholesale Electronics , but the shipping is like 3x more than the balun. So anything better than the Philips that could be purchased locally, or online with less shipping, etc.?


Well, I should recover a little more dB from the antenna with a better balun.


----------



## etcarroll




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I still have the old balun with cracked insulation and all on the Radio Shack antenna. I'm trying to figure out what better-than-Radio-Shack one to replace it with after seeing holl_ands' balun loss measurements . Of the ones tested, Lowes has the Philips on their site. Home Depot doesn't have the RCA on theirs (could be in-store?). And I can't find a CM "3075" -- the 0089 and 0090 are the models on their site -- same quality? Found one of them at Wholesale Electronics , but the shipping is like 3x more than the balun. So anything better than the Philips that could be purchased locally, or online with less shipping, etc.?
> 
> 
> Well, I should recover a little more dB from the antenna with a better balun.



Balun ID question?


I looked at the Excel from above, I've had the Phillips balun on a CM4228 for a year. My PBS station has always been iffy, I hope getting a db or two more of signal to my tuner will help.


I bought the antenna from another AVS member, who said it had little use, I don't doubt it.


I swapped out the balun that came with it, no ID, just says MAde in China, for the Phillips, thinking newer would be better. Now I wonder if I have a better balun sitting here in my parts bin, so my question is "How can I id this balun as a CM balun?"


Again, it is stamped, Made in China, nothing else.


Physically, the barrel or body has 2 grooves, the out put nipple is 'flattened' on one side, and the 2 input wires seem to be a bit heavier gauge than the Phillips unit has.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (but I believe your 2-degree differences, being as far as you are
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )



Actually, I have a station about 40 miles away that is just as sensitive. Of course it's 6kw and the transmitting antenna is 0m AGL.


----------



## TVSaurus

I installed a 4221 last week and could only receive 2 of the 3 locals in my area. So I went out and purchased a Radio Shack amplifier like this . I only installed the indoor unit while leaving the outdoor part in the box. Once installed I received perfect reception on all three locals for over a week now.


All of a sudden this morning I could only get 1 of the 3 stations. I checked out the indoor amp and the red light was off indicating that I had a short between the 4221 and amp. I proceeded into the attic and disconnected the small transformer on the antenna and the light immediately came back on. So I changed out the transformer with another and the got the same results. A short.


What could be causing this to happen and how can I fix it?


----------



## AntAltMike

Surprise, surprise! The little "thingie" that came with your amplifier that looked like a balun or matching transformer is actually a mast-mounted preamplifier. Your base unit contains a distribution amplifier and a power supply for the mast-mounted preamplifier.


The baluns you are using suck down the pre-amplifier voltage and eventually lead to failure. Ideally, you still have the mast-mounted preamplifier and can insert it in place of the balun. If you do not, then you at least need to insert a voltage blocking coupler (often called VBC) between the power supply and the balun. If you do that, you will at least have the benefit of a noisy distribution amplifier, but it won,t be as good as a mast mounted amp.


----------



## firemantom26




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It is surely easier for firemantom26 to swap the two leads on one of his baluns than to physically rotate one entire antenna. Also, he should make sure that he is using two physically identical baluns.
> 
> 
> The vertical spacing between those two 8-bay bowtie antennas is relatively unimportant. Some people try to make sure that the spacing between the top bowties on the bottom antenna and the bottom bowties on the top antenna is the same as the vertical spacing of the bowtie elements within each antenna, and I think that might require that the screens overlap a little.





I switched the wires around today, and it works perfect. Does anyone have input on running a dual Channel Master amp?


----------



## TVSaurus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Surprise,surprise! The little "thingie" that came with your amplifier that looked like a balun or matching transformer is actually a mast mounted preamplifier. Your base unit contains a distribution amplifier and a power supply for the mast-mounted preamplifier.
> 
> 
> The baluns you are using suck down the pre-amplifier voltage and eventualy lead to failure. Ideally, you still have the mast-mounted preamplifier and can insert it in place of the balun. If you do not, then you at least need to insert a voltage blocking coupler (often called VBC) between the power supply and the balun. If you do that, you will at least have the benefit of a noisy distribution amplifier, but it won,t be as good as a mast mounted amp.



I'm a little confused (newbie) so bare with me.


I kept the CM balun that came with the 4221 in-place when I initially installed the RS indoor amp box. I never used the pre-amp that came with the RS kit. However, I did use it when I realized the CM one didn't work and as mentioned above I got the same results.


So exactly what do I need to replace to get my signal back?


----------



## Neil L

Using just the indoor power supply without the pre-amp may have damaged the power supply, so that it is not working properly now.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *etcarroll* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Balun ID question?
> 
> 
> I looked at the Excel from above, I've had the Phillips balun on a CM4228 for a year. My PBS station has always been iffy, I hope getting a db or two more of signal to my tuner will help.
> 
> 
> I bought the antenna from another AVS member, who said it had little use, I don't doubt it.
> 
> 
> I swapped out the balun that came with it, no ID, just says MAde in China, for the Phillips, thinking newer would be better. Now I wonder if I have a better balun sitting here in my parts bin, so my question is "How can I id this balun as a CM balun?"
> 
> 
> Again, it is stamped, Made in China, nothing else.
> 
> 
> Physically, the barrel or body has 2 grooves, the output nipple is 'flattened' on one side, and the 2 input wires seem to be a bit heavier gauge than the Phillips unit has.



Here are pictures of the "Made in China" balun that came from a recently purchased CM-4228.

I have not (yet???) measured the loss of this particular balun, but it's probably acceptable.


The CM Balun that I did measure was the similar (identical?) Model 3075, ordered from www.outpost.com as Fry's P/N 2570351.

[It's currently in my son's attic with a CM4221, soon to be upgraded with the CM4228.]

They are both about 3/4-inch diameter, which is somewhat larger than other manufacturers,

and have a lip on the round "rear" end that allows a plastic sleeve (not shown) to seal around the connector.


PS: I've been doing an indoor comparison of CM4228 (hands down winner) to the DX DTA-5000 Smart Antenna (about as good as a 4-Bay).

In a permanent installation, the balun should be secured so that it doesn't shift position in the wind (or earthquakes).


----------



## TVSaurus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil Laffoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Using just the indoor power supply without the pre-amp may have damaged the power supply, so that it is not working properly now.



so if I get another RS amp and use the RS supplied pre-amp I should be okay?


----------



## ctdish

Try the RS preamp you have now if the light on the indoor part stays on it is probably OK. John


----------



## pyedog




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tatmtt2120* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am a noob with HD local channels and antennas. I currently have directv but I want my locals in HD so I am in need of an OTA antenna. I live on Beale AFB and antennaweb.org says I'm roughly 60 miles from the towers in Sacramenta, CA. For me to receive local channels in HD can I use an amplified indoor antenna or do I need to buy a more expensive outdoor antenna?



The TV5 was terrible for me, and I'm 25-40 miles from my towers. At 60mi you probably won't be happy with an indoor antenna ... just make sure you can return the indoor antenna if you try it.


A CM4228 should be around $50 or less (depending on where you get it and shipping). You might need a preamp as well (but probably not unless you have a long cable run), but an unamplified CM 4228 will probably get you a better signal than any amplified indoor antenna.


Good luck!


----------



## TVSaurus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Try the RS preamp you have now if the light on the indoor part stays on it is probably OK. John



I did. The light immediately went out just like with the balun.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVSaurus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm a little confused (newbie) so bare with me.
> 
> 
> I kept the CM balun that came with the 4221 in-place when I initially installed the RS indoor amp box. I never used the pre-amp that came with the RS kit. However, I did use it when I realized the CM one didn't work and as mentioned above I got the same results.
> 
> 
> So exactly what do I need to replace to get my signal back?



I just checked for DC shorts on coax output for the five outdoor baluns and 2 indoor baluns that I previously reported loss measurements.

Those that did not cause a DC short included the Philips, Radio-Shack (Gold and silver), RCA and both indoor baluns.


Only the Channel Master Balun that came with a CM-4228 antenna caused a DC short on the coax line,

which would cause problems for any DC power insertion device on that coax.

I have not checked the CM Balun from Fry's that was tested earlier, but it appears to be similiar (if not identical)

and hence may also cause a DC short on the coax line.


The cure is to either to remove the DC Power Insertion Module....which reduces loss by a few tenths of a dB....

or install a DC Block to prevent the DC voltage from being shorted out by the Balun,

e.g. R-S 15-1259 or GC BS-20 Voltage Blocking Coupler ( www.outpost.com or Frys P/N 2420570).

Of course, they may increase the loss by a couple tenths of a dB.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVSaurus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> so if I get another RS amp and use the RS supplied pre-amp I should be okay?



The Radio Shack base unit and preamp you bought were a matched pair. Another off-the-shelf Radio Shack amplifier will not have an output voltage for the preamp.


Do you have a voltmeter? That will tell you whether your base uit is still sourcing voltage to the preamp, but I don't know whether that product uses AC or DC. In either case, it would be around 16 to 18 volts.


Are you sure you have identified the preamplifier that came with the amplifier? I think it is encased in soft, flexible vinyl, but I haven't seen one in years.


Also, make sure that there are no splitters in the coax that goes from the base unit to the preamplifier.


----------



## Tatmtt2120




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pyedog* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The TV5 was terrible for me, and I'm 25-40 miles from my towers. At 60mi you probably won't be happy with an indoor antenna ... just make sure you can return the indoor antenna if you try it.
> 
> 
> A CM4228 should be around $50 or less (depending on where you get it and shipping). You might need a preamp as well (but probably not unless you have a long cable run), but an unamplified CM 4228 will probably get you a better signal than any amplified indoor antenna.
> 
> 
> Good luck!



Thanks, I went to fry's today to buy the CM4228 but they were sold out so I bought a CM stealth 3010 instead. Hopefully this one will work fine.


----------



## TVSaurus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The Radio Shack base unit and preamp you bought were a matched pair. Another off-the-shelf Radio Shack amplifier will not have an output voltage for the preamp.
> 
> 
> Do you have a voltmeter? That will tell you whether your base uit is still sourcing voltage to the preamp, but I don't know whether that product uses AC or DC. In either case, it would be around 16 to 18 volts.
> 
> 
> Are you sure you have identified the preamplifier that came with the amplifier? I think it is encased in soft, flexible vinyl, but I haven't seen one in years.
> 
> 
> Also, make sure that there are no splitters in the coax that goes from the base unit to the preamplifier.



I'll have to go the voltmeter route after Christmas due to time limitations.


I've ID the preamp with the RS amplifier as a matching amp and it looks identical to the balun that came with the 4221. All in hindsight though.


No splitter just straight coax from the balun to the RS amp base unit.


----------



## ctdish

I have got an RS preamp here and although in can replace a balun electrically. It is considerably bigger than any balun I have seen. It is about 3" long 1 3/4 " wide and about an inch thick. It also has about 15 inches of 300 ohm lead coming from one end. John


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sregener,
> 
> 
> Power grid reliability may be fine, even if it's spewing a boatload of rf garbage into the air...and I suspect that's what is happening to you. Remember, as analog cell phones and other analog devices get turned off in 2009 (it won't be just DTV!), you may get a little less interference, especially as the stations go to even higher power. Don't rule out reliability just yet...there are too many variables
> 
> between now and February, 2009 (if that date holds).



HOLD on a minute...you mean my nice old ericsson phone that gets analog and digital wont be analog after the switch off? Then how will I get reliable signal on the desolate parts of the PA turnpike? I doubt they are going to get enough digital coverage to cover the analog they have now....then again I can hope


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just checked for DC shorts on coax output for the five outdoor baluns and 2 indoor baluns that I previously reported loss measurements.
> 
> 
> I have not checked the CM Balun from Fry's that was tested earlier, but it appears to be similiar (if not identical) and hence may also cause a DC short on the coax line.
> 
> 
> The cure is to either to remove the DC Power Insertion Module....which reduces loss by a few tenths of a dB.... or install a DC Block to prevent the DC voltage from being shorted out by the Balun,



But if a balun that does not directly short the 75 ohm input consists primarily of a couple of parallel chokes straddled by a capacitor, then a short would still develop when a dipole is connected to its 300 ohm leads.


The cure is to replace the preamplifier module. Without it, you are left with a $60 distribution amplifier with a noise figure of probably around 6dB.


----------



## sebenste

Ding ding ding! Let's get it on!


A guy I know gave me his AP-8275 to test on my two antenna systems. I am located 60 miles west of Chicago, in a one-story townhouse with all antennas up in the attic, while my house sits low near the edge of a river valley.


One antenna system consists of a ChannelMaster 4228 8-bay UHF and a large Winegard VHF-only antenna that Winegard no longer makes. The second antenna system has a CM 4228 UHF antenna, but with a Radio Shack VU-90 suburban VHF antenna as part of it. The first system is diplexed with a CM 7777 preamp. The second/latter, I use a VHF-UHF diplexer, the output of which runs to an el cheapo 24 dB gain amplifier from Farm and Fleet (hardware store---think 'Home Depot' for farmers). All runs use RG-6 quad-shielded cable.


Well, tonight after I got back from Christmas services I decided to try this borrowed puppy out. This was a critical test! I looked at all the analog and digital stations, so I could see what the reception was. Then, I headed for the attic.


The combatants:


Reigning champion: ChannelMaster 7777 preamp on first antenna system

Specs: 23 dB gain VHF, 28 db gain UHF. Noise: 2.8 dB VHF, 2.0 dB UHF


Reigning champion: 24 dB gain no-name amplifier on second antenna system

Specs: 24 dB gain. Noise: 4 dB.


One thing I immediately noticed was that the Winegard AP-8275 doesn't have a separate VHF-UHF input option like the CM 7777 does. That means I have to take

off the combiner from my second system and run the cables from my first system to it to get it to work. That's not trivial, since that will make me lose a couple of dB of gain (not to mention it's 10 degrees up there, and doing this was a pain!). Well, I did it anyway...hooked up the Winegard preamp, with 50' of cable

between the powered amp and preamp in the attic...ran a jumper from the powered part of the amplifier to the TV, which was a 3' long cable...and saw the following.


There was a slight improvement in the VHF signals (2, 5, 7, 9, 11 analog from Chicago, and slight improvement with WBBM-DT on channel 3, but not enough to lock, sadly). The extra 6 dB you got from the Winegard amp on VHF was noticeable here, even with the 1-2 dB loss from the VHF-UHF combiner. OK, what about the UHF side? Both the CM 7777 and the Winegard AP-8275 claim 28 dB signal gain. It looks like that without a 1-2 dB signal loss from the combiner, the reception was going to be the same. The real-world pictures on UHF were a bit less, again, due to the combiner adding loss. OK, well, since most of the signals I want are on UHF, that stinks. So, I put the CM 7777 back on the first antenna system.


How about the second antenna system? The second one provides me with a more stable picture on WLS-DT in Chicago, so maybe that would help here. I connected the combiner again, sent the output to the Winegard preamp, and...


Nothing.


Back downstairs, the light on the powered portion of the preamp wouldn't even come on! Thinking I had a short, I checked the connections. Nothing wrong. Did I connect something backwards? Nope. I disconnected the AP-8275 and plugged in the no-name noisy signal amplifier. Bingo. Right back to where I started from, with a good picture from various stations. Did the AP-8275 fry or something? After trying it on shorter cable from a test antenna back downstairs where it was warmer, the answer was...no, because it worked! After thinking about it, I realized that my cable from the second antenna system to the TV was longer...maybe 75'. As it turns out, as far as *I* can tell, this particular preamp unit, if nothing else, couldn't handle the longer cable run. Why, I don't know. Tested twice on shorter runs on two antenna systems, it worked fine.


So, in summary, I can't recommend the Winegard AP-8275 to anyone with a cable run over 50'. That, and if you use separate VHF/UHF antennas in a rural area, the CM 7777 is superior on UHF and is close on VHF. Since most DTV stations are on UHF, the latter is most important, so the 7777 wins. In spite of having a reputation for handling power surges and lightning better, if it doesn't work, it doesn't matter! I'm returning my borrowed AP-8275 to its owner, disappointed.

I put a surge protector on the 7777 but still power the thing down during thunderstorms. And I'll be a happy CM 7777 user for a long time to come.


This is my experience, and mine only; your mileage may vary. I know, I've seen people use the unit with long cable runs. Why mine didn't work, I don't know.


----------



## Sirchadwick

I see several postings in reference to the Rat Shack products, and would like to inform that these products are BELOW standards and should not be purchased.


Stick with the Channel Master or Wineguard.


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

sregener, or anyone else, I tested the shortened 91XG yesterday (front 1/3 removed). Any reduction in directionality didn't make much difference. Just that the one off-axis channel that I couldn't get before the 7777 might've gotten a notch stronger. Still not better than the R-S though.











Thanks for the report sebenste. I've seen it mentioned many times about surges and lightning with the CM pre-amps. Are they really sensitive, and I should put mine on a surge protector? I'm assuming the power supply for surges, and the actual amplifier for lightning? (Or do you guys mean surges on the power supply CAUSED by lightning?)




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here are pictures of the "Made in China" balun that came from a recently purchased CM-4228.
> 
> I have not (yet???) measured the loss of this particular balun, but it's probably acceptable.
> 
> 
> The CM Balun that I did measure was the similar (identical?) Model 3075, ordered from www.outpost.com as Fry's P/N 2570351.
> 
> [It's currently in my son's attic with a CM4221, soon to be upgraded with the CM4228.]
> 
> They are both about 3/4-inch diameter, which is somewhat larger than other manufacturers,
> 
> and have a lip on the round "rear" end that allows a plastic sleeve (not shown) to seal around the connector.



Thanks for the Outpost item number.







I see their shipping is almost 3x the balun cost also.







They should send these little things by USPS! Do you know of any other place to get them?


2 more questions: I guess the models on the CM site and Wholesale Electronics (0090/7990) are similar, if not identical, to what you tested? Finally, do the CMs just have bare wire twin-leads, instead of "spades" like most?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil Laffoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm curious, what advantage does a vertical component offer? I'm thinking that is why a X works good as a VHF antenna, and rabbit ears work good (often better) at 45 degrees than at 90 degree as a true dipole. But still don't understand why a broadcaster would choose one way or the other on the vertical component.



Circular polarization (both H-pol and V-pol) tends to yield stronger signals with indoor rabbit ears and loop antennas. These tests were done with analog TV. Part of the advantage is the higher transmitter power that the FCC allows to make the H-pol signal the same. Theoretically, there's no advantage for C-pol when using a standard outdoor antenna.


Studies were done in the late 1940's that proved that H-pol has less ghosting than V-pol. That's why TV evolved as H-pol. I've measured V-pol reflections that were 10 db stronger than H-pol reflections.


With the marginal multipath performance of some DTV receivers, the use of elliptical or circular polarization for the DTV transmitter antenna does not make sense to me.


----------



## etcarroll

Thanks for the pics, that's what I have. I assume its performance should be equal to the 3075, so I'm going to reinstall it and see what becomes of the signal of my worst, (PBS), channel.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here are pictures of the "Made in China" balun that came from a recently purchased CM-4228.
> 
> I have not (yet???) measured the loss of this particular balun, but it's probably acceptable.
> 
> 
> The CM Balun that I did measure was the similar (identical?) Model 3075, ordered from www.outpost.com as Fry's P/N 2570351.
> 
> [It's currently in my son's attic with a CM4221, soon to be upgraded with the CM4228.]
> 
> They are both about 3/4-inch diameter, which is somewhat larger than other manufacturers,
> 
> and have a lip on the round "rear" end that allows a plastic sleeve (not shown) to seal around the connector.
> 
> 
> PS: I've been doing an indoor comparison of CM4228 (hands down winner) to the DX DTA-5000 Smart Antenna (about as good as a 4-Bay).
> 
> In a permanent installation, the balun should be secured so that it doesn't shift position in the wind (or earthquakes).


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the Outpost item number.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see their shipping is almost 3x the balun cost also.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They should send these little things by USPS! Do you know of any other place to get them?
> 
> 
> 2 more questions: I guess the models on the CM site and Wholesale Electronics (0090/7990) are similar, if not identical, to what you tested? Finally, do the CMs just have bare wire twin-leads, instead of "spades" like most?



ACE Hardware, True Value and Lowes are listed on CM site as distributors.

You can also search your locality for additional distributors:
http://www.channelmaster.com/home.htm 

Call around....unfortunately, in our area the listed distributors only carry a few selected antennas.

They also list the usual on-line sources.


Both CM Baluns that I've seen have bare wires.

If you want spades, it's easy to crimp some on....

Preferably followed with solder...to avoid corrosion buildup over the years.


----------



## AntAltMike

Why does DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR believe that the Channel Master balun is any better than whatever else he might be using? The post distinguishing it from the other baluns tested was only to point out that electrically, it did not short a power supply, which is irrelevent to any valid circuit configuration.


I think that Channel Master makes all its outdoor baluns the same diameter so that they will fit into the balun mounting clips they furnish with their antennas. FWIW, holl_ands and I have both measured lower losses with narrower-body, indoor baluns. If you use an indoor balun outdoors, you should cover it with "coax seal", otherwise water can leak into the end where the flat, twin lead enters it.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Why does DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR believe that the Channel Master balun is any better than whatever else he might be using? The post distinguishing it from the other baluns tested was only to point out that electrically, it did not short a power supply, which is irrelevent to any valid circuit configuration.
> 
> 
> I think that Channel Master makes all its outdoor baluns the same diameter so that they will fit into the balun mounting clips they furnish with their antennas. FWIW, holl_ands and I have both measured lower losses with narrower-body, indoor baluns. If you use an indoor balun outdoors, you should cover it with "coax seal", otherwise water can leak into the end where the flat, twin lead enters it.



In DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR's post, he provided link to my comparison test:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/2489.html 

Note that the maximum loss value for the CM balun was much less than any of the other outdoor baluns.


Of the baluns at hand for testing, the one with the lowest loss was actually the RMS CA-2100B, intended for indoor use.

Feel free to post any comparison results of your own....there isn't much to be found on this subject.


FYI: Here are results posted in hdtvprimer for CM0090 and two R-S balun models

and the (extremely high loss) found in the KYES test for a back-to-back Philmore/Pfantone combination:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html 
http://www.kyes.com/antenna/balun.html


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

Yeah, that's why I believe the CM balun would be better Mike.







But, I forgot that HDTV Primer had the loss chart (w/ 0090).







Wow, those results are different than yours holl_ands... The R-S isn't doing too bad. Then again, it doesn't say how the results were obtained, so I'll tend to believe yours more.











The problem with the CM site's distributor list is, as you know, it doesn't list WHAT products they sell. Like Lowes here only has one big combo antenna and a 5' mast.







I did find Skywalker Communications near here -- I'd seen it listed before, but couldn't browse their products. I figured out the guest login (







) and found the CM 0089 (no S-clip) for only $0.99 ! (View after entering user/pass sw/2savemore.)


About the spades: just seems to make a nicer connection than wrapping bare wire around the antenna terminals. I found these and these at R-S. The first ones look exactly like what's on the R-S baluns, so they'd probably work.


----------



## sebenste




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ding ding ding! Let's get it on!
> 
> 
> A guy I know gave me his AP-8275 to test on my two antenna systems. I am located 60 miles west of Chicago, in a one-story townhouse with all antennas up in the attic, while my house sits low near the edge of a river valley.
> 
> 
> One antenna system consists of a ChannelMaster 4228 8-bay UHF and a large Winegard VHF-only antenna that Winegard no longer makes. The second antenna system has a CM 4228 UHF antenna, but with a Radio Shack VU-90 suburban VHF antenna as part of it. The first system is diplexed with a CM 7777 preamp. The second/latter, I use a VHF-UHF diplexer, the output of which runs to an el cheapo 24 dB gain amplifier from Farm and Fleet (hardware store---think 'Home Depot' for farmers). All runs use RG-6 quad-shielded cable.
> 
> 
> Well, tonight after I got back from Christmas services I decided to try this borrowed puppy out. This was a critical test! I looked at all the analog and digital stations, so I could see what the reception was. Then, I headed for the attic.
> 
> 
> The combatants:
> 
> 
> Reigning champion: ChannelMaster 7777 preamp on first antenna system
> 
> Specs: 23 dB gain VHF, 28 db gain UHF. Noise: 2.8 dB VHF, 2.0 dB UHF
> 
> 
> Reigning champion: 24 dB gain no-name amplifier on second antenna system
> 
> Specs: 24 dB gain. Noise: 4 dB.
> 
> 
> One thing I immediately noticed was that the Winegard AP-8275 doesn't have a separate VHF-UHF input option like the CM 7777 does. That means I have to take
> 
> off the combiner from my second system and run the cables from my first system to it to get it to work. That's not trivial, since that will make me lose a couple of dB of gain (not to mention it's 10 degrees up there, and doing this was a pain!). Well, I did it anyway...hooked up the Winegard preamp, with 50' of cable
> 
> between the powered amp and preamp in the attic...ran a jumper from the powered part of the amplifier to the TV, which was a 3' long cable...and saw the following.
> 
> 
> There was a slight improvement in the VHF signals (2, 5, 7, 9, 11 analog from Chicago, and slight improvement with WBBM-DT on channel 3, but not enough to lock, sadly). The extra 6 dB you got from the Winegard amp on VHF was noticeable here, even with the 1-2 dB loss from the VHF-UHF combiner. OK, what about the UHF side? Both the CM 7777 and the Winegard AP-8275 claim 28 dB signal gain. It looks like that without a 1-2 dB signal loss from the combiner, the reception was going to be the same. The real-world pictures on UHF were a bit less, again, due to the combiner adding loss. OK, well, since most of the signals I want are on UHF, that stinks. So, I put the CM 7777 back on the first antenna system.
> 
> 
> How about the second antenna system? The second one provides me with a more stable picture on WLS-DT in Chicago, so maybe that would help here. I connected the combiner again, sent the output to the Winegard preamp, and...
> 
> 
> Nothing.
> 
> 
> Back downstairs, the light on the powered portion of the preamp wouldn't even come on! Thinking I had a short, I checked the connections. Nothing wrong. Did I connect something backwards? Nope. I disconnected the AP-8275 and plugged in the no-name noisy signal amplifier. Bingo. Right back to where I started from, with a good picture from various stations. Did the AP-8275 fry or something? After trying it on shorter cable from a test antenna back downstairs where it was warmer, the answer was...no, because it worked! After thinking about it, I realized that my cable from the second antenna system to the TV was longer...maybe 75'. As it turns out, as far as *I* can tell, this particular preamp unit, if nothing else, couldn't handle the longer cable run. Why, I don't know. Tested twice on shorter runs on two antenna systems, it worked fine.
> 
> 
> So, in summary, I can't recommend the Winegard AP-8275 to anyone with a cable run over 50'. That, and if you use separate VHF/UHF antennas in a rural area, the CM 7777 is superior on UHF and is close on VHF. Since most DTV stations are on UHF, the latter is most important, so the 7777 wins. In spite of having a reputation for handling power surges and lightning better, if it doesn't work, it doesn't matter! I'm returning my borrowed AP-8275 to its owner, disappointed.
> 
> I put a surge protector on the 7777 but still power the thing down during thunderstorms. And I'll be a happy CM 7777 user for a long time to come.
> 
> 
> This is my experience, and mine only; your mileage may vary. I know, I've seen people use the unit with long cable runs. Why mine didn't work, I don't know.



I know why now. When I had my townhome built, I put in a splitter in the wall for that second antenna system. It was shorting out the preamp!

So, I tried it a second time. This time, I put the amplifier in the attic, and put the preamp about 5 feet down the line. I can't find my splicing tools right now, for whatever reason...otherwise I could put it much closer. In any case, it worked!

Tonight, 60 miles west of Chicago, I locked WMVS-DT rf channel 8 (resolves as 10.X, it's analog counterpart). What's amazing is not that I am 90 miles away from the tower, but that it's a Radio Shack VU-90 (*not* 190) antenna!


Sooooo...that's better. I was really wondering how a preamp couldn't work

with a 75' cable run. Again, the UHF improved slightly over my 24 dB amplifier

with 4 dB noise, but the VHF showed marked improvement across the board,

and pointed towards Milwaukee, I now get PBS out of my ears with WTTW-DT

from Chicago and WMVS from Milwaukee (5 subchannels!).


----------



## firemantom26




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It is surely easier for firemantom26 to swap the two leads on one of his baluns than to physically rotate one entire antenna. Also, he should make sure that he is using two physically identical baluns.
> 
> 
> The vertical spacing between those two 8-bay bowtie antennas is relatively unimportant. Some people try to make sure that the spacing between the top bowties on the bottom antenna and the bottom bowties on the top antenna is the same as the vertical spacing of the bowtie elements within each antenna, and I think that might require that the screens overlap a little.





I did switch the the two leads and it helped out. I do have the the spacing between the top bowties on the bottom antenna and the bottom bowties on the top antenna is the same as the vertical spacing of the bowtie elements within each antenna. I just was told it should be around 36 ins. I want to know if anyone else has tried this and what their results was.


Thank You


----------



## GilWave

I live among some hills in rural Northeast NJ, and we cannot get local television (or radio fo rthat matter) via TV antennas, so most of us have either cable TV (CableVision) or Direct TV.


At my house, a DirectTV site survey found that I can't even get Satelite reception










So, here's my dilema - my guest room has a nice HP Entertainment Center PC running Media Center. it's recording all my wife's favorite shows and soaps off the CableVision STB. I want it to record HD contecnt, but Microsoft in its infinite wisdom only allows for OTA reception of HD.


From what I've read here, indoor antennas won't cut it? What is my best bet for an antenna to get strong OTA HD reception? Any recommendations from folks similarly "out of range" would be appreciated.


-gil


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GilWave* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> From what I've read here, indoor antennas won't cut it? What is my best bet for an antenna to get strong OTA HD reception? Any recommendations from folks similarly "out of range" would be appreciated.



How far away are you from the the transmitters(city?), and what is the terrain like between you and them?

.....jc


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GilWave* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> we cannot get local television (or radio for that matter) via TV antennas.



If you truely cannot get local analog stations at all (not even a snowy picture), then you probably don't have any hope of getting HDTV OTA. Have you ever tried to get analog TV with an antenna? Do any close neighbors get TV with an antenna? If so, what kind of antenna setup do they have? You may have a chance with a large antenna, on a tower tall enough to clear the trees and nearby hills.


----------



## GilWave




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How far away are you from the the transmitters(city?), and what is the terrain like between you and them?



35 miles Northwest of Manhattan (ABC, NBC, CBS), elevation is 1480 ft. above sea level. My house sits say half way down one of the mountains (which, in California, would be considered hills) just before a snall valley opposite another hill.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NeilLaffoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you truely cannot get local analog stations at all (not even a snowy picture), then you probably don't have any hope of getting HDTV OTA.



This is what I am afraid of. So the HD OTA signal is not higher power than good ole SD OTA?



> Quote:
> You may have a chance with a large antenna, on a tower tall enough to clear the trees and nearby hills.



That's the problem - even with a 40' tower DirectTV could not clear the trees.


So am I SOL?


----------



## bt-rtp

I would suggest that you call a small Mom-n-Pop type of local DirecTV authorized retailer in your area, you can find these in the Yellow Pages or in a strip mall near your neighborhood.


Explain your situation and ask them if they can send out their best technician to perform another site survey. Tell them that you will give them your business if they come through with a solution.


They will also likely be able to help you with an OTA antenna design based upon your structure, the distance and the obsticles in the area.


- bt-rtp


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GilWave* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 35 miles Northwest of Manhattan (ABC, NBC, CBS), elevation is 1480 ft. above sea level. My house sits say half way down one of the mountains (which, in California, would be considered hills) just before a snall valley opposite another hill.



I'm not familiar with the situation in NY, but 35 miles is not very far, unless of course those small mountains totally block the signal. And that may well be the case.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GilWave* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So the HD OTA signal is not higher power than good ole SD OTA?



Generally not. Most stations are going to try and cover the same geographical area with their digital broadcast as they are currently covering with analog. Some stations that are now using high UHF for digita are at higher power than they are for low VHF analog, but that is necessary to cover the same area, and won't help you any. BTW, most cable TV carry at least the HDTV signals from the major broadcasters, in the clear. So if you have even basic cable, you may be able to get HDTV on cable.


----------



## GilWave




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil Laffoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So if you have even basic cable, you may be able to get HDTV on cable.



I have cable, and get 18 HD channels. I have them downstairs on my SA 8300 HD. What I want to do is record OTA HD on my HP Entertainment Center upstairs, as Media Center does not record HD off cable.


----------



## Neil L









Oh yes, you did mention that in your original post, didn't you?


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil Laffoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yes, you did mention that in your original post, didn't you?



No ****! *18 channels?* Yup, you is hurting!










Well, does the 'Media Center' have component outputs? A little wire is a lot cheaper than an antenna system(if it's even possible).

....jc


----------



## GilWave




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, does the 'Media Center' have component outputs? A little wire is a lot cheaper than an antenna system(if it's even possible).



I'd need component IN to record HD from the cable box.


I assume Microsoft has an issue with HDCP so it will not take HD via cable.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GilWave* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have cable, and get 18 HD channels. I have them downstairs on my SA 8300 HD. What I want to do is record OTA HD on my HP Entertainment Center upstairs, as Media Center does not record HD off cable.



Only way to record encrypted HD channels is to rent an STB with IEEE-1394 Firewire port (e.g. SA3250HD and "some" SA8300HD's)

and record using either D-VHS or (I've heard) a MAC running DVHS Emulator.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=508907 


A PC can only record the unencrypted SD/HD channels, either via Firewire interface or using a QAM tuner:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=403695 

Microsoft is working on a new Media Center OPSYS that will accept encrypted input, but don't expect to see anything before 2007.


----------



## Tatmtt2120




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bt-rtp* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would suggest that you call a small Mom-n-Pop type of local DirecTV authorized retailer in your area, you can find these in the Yellow Pages or in a strip mall near your neighborhood.
> 
> 
> Explain your situation and ask them if they can send out their best technician to perform another site survey. Tell them that you will give them your business if they come through with a solution.
> 
> 
> They will also likely be able to help you with an OTA antenna design based upon your structure, the distance and the obsticles in the area.
> 
> 
> - bt-rtp



I agree. My HD Dtv dish is pointed directly at a HUGE tree and I get 95% signal strength.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tatmtt2120* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I agree. My HD Dtv dish is pointed directly at a HUGE tree and I get 95% signal strength.



It's probably pointed *over* that tree. The dish is offset, meaning it is pointing higher than it appears.


Ku-band signals (which is what DirecTV and Dish use) do not penetrate leaves or pine needles.


----------



## GilWave




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A PC can only record the unencrypted SD/HD channels, either via Firewire interface or using a QAM tuner. Microsoft is working on a new Media Center OPSYS that will accept encrypted input, but don't expect to see anything before 2007.



Thank you holl_ands, that was what I needed to know. I prefer to use the nice elegant GUI interface from Media Center 2005, direct in from an OTA antenna (which most likely won't work due to my locale) or wait for Microsoft to work out the encryption. So it's SD on my HP PC for now. Acronym soup!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GilWave* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thank you holl_ands, that was what I needed to know. I prefer to use the nice elegant GUI interface from Media Center 2005, direct in from an OTA antenna (which most likely won't work due to my locale) or wait for Microsoft to work out the encryption. So it's SD on my HP PC for now. Acronym soup!



I don't think your locale rules you out at all. You may need a good antenna, but properly mounted outdoors, I can't imagine you'd have any trouble getting the NYC digitals.


Get a Channel Master 4228 from someone who'll take returns and give it a shot. (more may be required for the digitals on VHF, but if you have success on UHF, the VHF should be a slam dunk.


I get reception from 75+ miles away, and my town is "down in a valley" and line-of-sight is impossible for almost all stations.


----------



## GilWave




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't think your locale rules you out at all. You may need a good antenna, but properly mounted outdoors, I can't imagine you'd have any trouble getting the NYC digitals.



Even if I can't get standard TV OTA in my locale?



> Quote:
> Get a Channel Master 4228 from someone who'll take returns and give it a shot.



Cool, I'll give it a shot - thanks!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GilWave* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Even if I can't get standard TV OTA in my locale?



When I moved to Rochester, MN, I was told, "Just get cable. You can't get anything here." So I did. a few years later, digital came along and I decided to give an antenna a shot. Lo and behold, the "nothing" I was supposed to get was flat-out wrong! I got better analog pictures from my antenna than what the cable company had. From my rooftop, I have 0 line-of-sight to any transmitters. I received digitals from 35 miles away *with no problems* 24x7. I received analogs from over 75 miles away just fine, although not perfectly.


In short, if you haven't put an antenna up, the "local wisdom" isn't worth a thing. Broadcasts are designed to cover at least 60 miles around the transmitter. Granted, you can get blocked by serious mountains, but last I checked, NJ doesn't have any of those. So you're probably dealing with some moderate hills. At 35 miles, that's nothing. At 55, I'd be worried for you.


Try it. Don't listen to the experts.


(Note: You will almost certainly need an outdoor antenna, and a preamplifier isn't a bad idea if your analog pictures are snowy.)


----------



## GilWave




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In short, if you haven't put an antenna up, the "local wisdom" isn't worth a thing. Broadcasts are designed to cover at least 60 miles around the transmitter. Granted, you can get blocked by serious mountains, but last I checked, NJ doesn't have any of those. So you're probably dealing with some moderate hills. At 35 miles, that's nothing.



Thank you - more good advice.


I'll try putting up the Channel Master and see how I do.


-gil


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GilWave* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thank you holl_ands, that was what I needed to know. I prefer to use the nice elegant GUI interface from Media Center 2005, direct in from an OTA antenna (which most likely won't work due to my locale) or wait for Microsoft to work out the encryption. So it's SD on my HP PC for now. Acronym soup!



I just saw this this morning....seems things are getting better sooner than expected....

A Linux based Media Center from vwbinc that claims to now support CableCard input--giving access to encrypted and unencrypted cable channels.
http://www.vwbinc.com/press/122205pr.html


----------



## davefre99

I have sort of a unique situation were I have a local PBS affiliate that is just 8 miles from my location on UHF digital ch26 and analog ch24 that over power my distant (55+miles) signals off MT Wilson in the LA area. I currently have been using a cm4228 w/cm7775 preamp pointed almost exactly 90deg. off axis so I can null out the closer in signal that is about 4degrees off the main LA signals. IF I point the antenna straight at the LA towers I can get some of the channel on the higher end with signal levels near 90% but others in the lower band are just unusable. I found that inserting a 6db pad on the input side of the preamp and pointing off axis aprox 90 degrees I could virtualy get all the LA channels with a 60~80% signal most of the time. This has worked ok as a temporary fix but I am wondering if a different antenna that might have a narrower beam with might work better. I need something that has a 3~4 degree beamwith that will allow me to slightly null the close in signal and still point pretty much straight at the distant towers. My neighbors think I am crazy pointing my antenna completly away from the signal but there apparently is a very strong side lobe that allows it to work this way. I also have searched with no luck for a single channel trap that would let me just trap put the problem stations but so far I have come up with nothing.

Just for the record I live in Moreno Valley 92555 and antennaweb.org says I should not be able to get anything digital. I Posted a while back in the LA section but sort of just left things as they are for a while and now am getting the bug to try something else.

Dave,


----------



## holl_ands

Have you tried a Preamp with a much higher overload capability such as any of several Winegard 19dB gain UHF preamps

or the newer HDP-269 with an even higher overload resistance?

Or no preamp at all???


KVCR (analog and digital) are no doubt overloading the CM7775, which is why you need to point a null toward that direction

and accept whatever gain happens to be left towards Mt Wilson.


If you are looking for deep antenna nulls, horizontally stacked antennas may be useful.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *davefre99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have sort of a unique situation were I have a local PBS affiliate that is just 8 miles from my location on UHF digital ch26 and analog ch24 that over power my distant (55+miles) signals off MT Wilson in the LA area. I currently have been using a cm4228 w/cm7775 preamp pointed almost exactly 90deg. off axis so I can null out the closer in signal that is about 4degrees off the main LA signals.



You shouldn't need a preamp for the Mount Wilson stations at 55 miles. The Mount Wilson antennas have line-of-sight for over 100 miles. I'd try removing the preamplifier altogether and make sure you actually need amplification. If you do, get a preamp with better overloading characteristics like the Winegard lineup holl_ands mentioned.


If you used a Channel Master Jointenna for channel 25, (and not attach the channel 25 input) that would give you a really strong filter on channels 24-26 on the primary antenna input.


----------



## davefre99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Have you tried a Preamp with a much higher overload capability such as any of several Winegard 17dB gain UHF preamps
> 
> or the newer HDP-269 with an even higher overload resistance?
> 
> Or no preamp at all???
> 
> 
> KVCR (analog and digital) are no doubt overloading the CM7775, which is why you need to point a null toward that direction
> 
> and accept whatever gain happens to be left towards Mt Wilson.
> 
> 
> If you are looking for deep antenna nulls, horizontally stacked antennas may be useful.



I tried a winegard 8700 pre-amp but it made things slightly worse. I am not sure if the winegard 4700 is better than the 8700 since it is uhf only but has much the same specs I believe. Also the 6db pad on the input should be degating the over drive shouldnt it. I have tried other combos of pads from 3db ~20db and settled on the 6db as it worked best. Where can I find the HDP-269 ?


----------



## davefre99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You shouldn't need a preamp for the Mount Wilson stations at 55 miles. The Mount Wilson antennas have line-of-sight for over 100 miles. I'd try removing the preamplifier altogether and make sure you actually need amplification. If you do, get a preamp with better overloading characteristics like the Winegard lineup holl_ands mentioned.
> 
> 
> If you used a Channel Master Jointenna for channel 25, (and not attach the channel 25 input) that would give you a really strong filter on channels 24-26 on the primary antenna input.



I did try my cm4228 originaly with out the pre-amp and it would barely lock on a few channels even pointed straight at MT Wilson. THe pre-amp made an instant improvement but also causes my overload situation on the local signal.


Tell me more about the Jountenna. I am using one single RG-6 downlead, does it have dual inputs like a splitter combiner that filters/passes similar to a dc passive splitter and are thay available in specific channels? Who sells them I have never heard of them?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *davefre99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> IAlso the 6db pad on the input should be degating the over drive shouldnt it. I have tried other combos of pads from 3db ~20db and settled on the 6db as it worked best. Where can I find the HDP-269 ?



You're probably getting somewhere between 20-40dB of extra signal from the local stations. That's a lot, as every 3dB = a doubling of power.


One place to get the 269 is here, but there are others: http://www.starkelectronic.com/allamps.htm 


I still wonder if you really need a preamp to begin with...


----------



## bt-rtp

I'm planning to try out this modification to the Channel Master 4308 UHF Yagi-type antenna. It will be mounted on the roof of my two story house which is 15 miles from the tower with an unobstructed path. My desired frequencies are 49 thru 57.


Does anyone have any feedback to share, experiences or suggestions on these modifications ? http://hdtvexpert.com/pages/cm3022.htm 


- bt-rtp


----------



## holl_ands

JoinTenna Info (about $30+s/h):
http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/TVS/Passives.htm 
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Ant...Jointennas.htm 
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/GlossaryG.html 


It is basically a two-way antenna diplexer/combiner, where the single channel input

goes through a narrow bandpass filter which attenuates all except the "chosen" channel.

The wideband all-channel input (the one you want to use) goes through a notch filter that is tuned for maximum attenuation of the visual carrier.

Note that you order it for a particular channel number, which requires the vendor to tune the filters for the desired UHF channel prior to delivery.


The all channel input also attenuates (to a lesser degree) adjacent channels (CH22, CH23 and CH25)

and will have only a small attenuation against CH21 and CH26.

Hence, you might want to consider inserting an additional JoinTenna tuned for CH26.

Unfortunately, the notch will only be effective against a relative small portion of the DTV signal spectrum,

which is spread across the entire 6 MHz channel allocation.


You might think that the analog CH24 (1320 kW peak power) would be more of an overload problem than digital CH26 (440 kW average power).

However, the PEAK power is what causes preamp overload (just like in any other kind of amplifier).

And the PEAK power of a DTV signal is about 7 dB higher (2200 kW peak power):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ak#post6268128 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ak#post6273553 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ak#post6290253 


==================================================

To give you an idea on how ineffective a single notch filter might be,

look at the attenuation curve for the following Eagle Notch Filter from tonercable:
http://www.tonercable.com/Toner%20We.../EAGLELITE.pdf 

Each horizontal subdivision is 1.5 MHz, so the notch will be very effective against the visual carrier,

but will have very little attenuation against the aural carrier located 4.5 MHz higher.

Fortunately, the station broadcasts the aural carrier (typically) 13 dB below the visual carrier for an analog NTSC signal.

Note that since the visual carrier is at the bottom of the NTSC channel (see picture),

the notch attenuates the lower adjacent channel much more than the upper adjacent channel.


================================================

You could accomplish a somewhat more effective attenuation (esp against DTV) by ordering double narrow-band notch filters.

Winegard UT-2700 (about $40+s/h) has two separate traps, one tuned for the visual carrier and the other for the aural carrier frequency.

This would be much more effective than a single trap, especially against a digital channel that does not have distinct energy peaks:
http://www.winegard.com/offair/trapsfilters.htm 
http://www.epinions.com/content_190042771076 

[Note that the picture is for a Mulitswitch, not the UT-2700.]
http://www.summitsource.com/product_...oducts_id=5344 


Blonder-Tongue makes the (ouch, $220+s/h) MWT series of narrow-band notch filters that also have two separate tunable traps:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...T=&PROD=SS4614 
http://www.starkelectronic.com/btc15-1.htm 


===========================================

All of these filters claim to have a minimal 0.5 dB of insertion loss in the UHF band.


----------



## Original Hi-Tec

I am looking for a low profile outdoor antenna that will work the best 10 miles from the transmitter without a direct line of sight.


The two models I am looking at is the Radio Shack HDTV outdoor antenna and the Channel master Stealthtenna.


They both look fairly similar... but does anybody have an opinion why one might work any better then the other?


----------



## vivek9856

I want to install a new OTA antenna in my yard to recieve better local channels (High Def and Analog). Currently, I have a $20 RCA bunny ear antenna. I want a large outdoor antenna that is around 12' to 15', something to mount an antenna on (tripod/mount), and possibly a rotator. I am not sure if I need a rotator, but I was hoping you all could tell me if I need one. I want to keep the whole project under $200. If I could get it for less, that would be better.


This is currently what I thought I might get:

Antenna: Channel Master CM 3020 Deep Fringe Advantage TV Antenna

Channel Master CM 3679 Deep Fringe Crossfire Series Antenna

Radio Shack VU-190 XR

Channel Master CM 3018 Near Fringe Outdoor Antenna


Mounting System: Radio Shack 15-517 3-Foot Tripod Mount

Channel Master 30' Telescoping Mast


Rotator: Channel Master CM 9521A Complete Antenna Rotator Kit with Infra-Red Remote Control and 250 FT Rotator Wire


WVLA 33 NBC BATON ROUGE LA 252° 18.8 33

WGMB 44 FOX BATON ROUGE LA 252° 18.8 44

WGMB-DT 45.1 FOX BATON ROUGE LA 252° 18.8 45

WLFT-CA 30 IND BATON ROUGE LA 253° 5.2 30

WLPB 27 PBS BATON ROUGE LA 259° 13.9 27

WLPB-DT 27.1 PBS BATON ROUGE LA 259° 13.9 25

WBTR-DT 19 IND BATON ROUGE LA 283° 13.1 19

WAFB 9 CBS BATON ROUGE LA 258° 14.5 9

WAFB-DT 9.1 CBS BATON ROUGE LA 281° 12.7 46

WBRZ 2 ABC BATON ROUGE LA 239° 15.1 2

WBRZ-DT 2.1 ABC BATON ROUGE LA 239° 15.1 13

WBTR 19 IND BATON ROUGE LA 283° 13.1 19

K56DR 56 TBN BATON ROUGE LA 252° 18.8 56

WBXH-CA 46 BOX BATON ROUGE LA 311° 21.2 46

WBRL-CA 21 WB BATON ROUGE LA 283° 13.1 21

KBTR-CA 41 IND BATON ROUGE LA 287° 9.9 41

WSTY-LP 39 IND BATON ROUGE LA 342° 6.3 39

WNOL 38 WB NEW ORLEANS LA 114° 67.7 38

WUPL 54 UPN SLIDELL LA 95° 64.2 54

WMAU 17 PBS BUDE MS 10° 68.2 17

WVLA-DT 34.1 NBC BATON ROUGE LA 254° 7.6 34

WVUE 8 FOX NEW ORLEANS LA 115° 68.6 8

WWL 4 CBS NEW ORLEANS LA 120° 65.6 4

WPXL 49 I NEW ORLEANS LA 119° 65.8 49

WYES 12 PBS NEW ORLEANS LA 115° 68.6 12

KZUP-CA 19 IND BATON ROUGE LA 283° 13.1 19

WGNO 26 ABC NEW ORLEANS LA 114° 67.7 26

WLAE 32 PBS NEW ORLEANS LA 114° 67.6 32

KPBN-LP 11 A1 BATON ROUGE LA 285° 7.0 11

KATC 3 ABC LAFAYETTE LA 252° 87.1 3

KLFY 10 CBS LAFAYETTE LA 265° 78.2 10

KADN 15 FOX LAFAYETTE LA 266° 74.0 15

WDSU 6 NBC NEW ORLEANS LA 116° 68.3 6

WHNO 20 IND NEW ORLEANS LA 119° 65.8 20


----------



## davefre99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> JoinTenna Info (about $30+s/h):
> http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/TVS/Passives.htm
> http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/GlossaryG.html
> 
> 
> It is basically a two-way antenna diplexer/combiner, where the single channel input
> 
> goes through a narrow bandpass filter which attenuates all except the "chosen" channel.
> 
> The wideband all-channel input (the one you want to use) goes through a notch filter that is tuned for maximum attenuation of the visual carrier.
> 
> Note that you order it for a particular channel number, which requires the vendor to tune the filters for the desired UHF channel prior to delivery.
> 
> 
> The all channel input also attenuates (to a lesser degree) adjacent channels (CH22, CH23 and CH25)
> 
> and will have only a small attenuation against CH21 and CH26.
> 
> Hence, you might want to consider inserting an additional JoinTenna tuned for CH26.
> 
> Unfortunately, the notch will only be effective against a relative small portion of the DTV signal spectrum,
> 
> which is spread across the entire 6 MHz channel allocation.
> 
> 
> You might think that the analog CH24 (1320 kW peak power) would be more of an overload problem than digital CH26 (440 kW average power).
> 
> However, the PEAK power is what causes preamp overload (just like in any other kind of amplifier).
> 
> And the PEAK power of a DTV signal is about 7 dB higher (2200 kW peak power):
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ak#post6268128
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ak#post6273553
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ak#post6290253
> 
> 
> ==================================================
> 
> To give you an idea on how ineffective a single notch filter might be,
> 
> look at the attenuation curve for the following Eagle Notch Filter from tonercable:
> http://www.tonercable.com/Toner%20We.../EAGLELITE.pdf
> 
> Each horizontal subdivision is 1.5 MHz, so the notch will be very effective against the visual carrier,
> 
> but will have very little attenuation against the aural carrier located 4.5 MHz higher.
> 
> Fortunately, the station broadcasts the aural carrier (typically) 13 dB below the visual carrier for an analog NTSC signal.
> 
> Note that since the visual carrier is at the bottom of the NTSC channel (see picture),
> 
> the notch attenuates the lower adjacent channel much more than the upper adjacent channel.
> 
> 
> ================================================
> 
> You could accomplish a somewhat more effective attenuation (esp against DTV) by ordering double narrow-band notch filters.
> 
> Winegard UT-2700 (about $40+s/h) has two separate traps, one tuned for the visual carrier and the other for the aural carrier frequency.
> 
> This would be much more effective than a single trap, especially against a digital channel that does not have distinct energy peaks:
> http://www.winegard.com/offair/trapsfilters.htm
> http://www.epinions.com/content_190042771076
> 
> [Note that the picture is for a Mulitswitch, not the UT-2700.]
> http://www.summitsource.com/product_...oducts_id=5344
> 
> 
> Blonder-Tongue makes the (ouch, $220+s/h) MWT series of narrow-band notch filters that also have two separate tunable traps:
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...T=&PROD=SS4614
> http://www.starkelectronic.com/btc15-1.htm
> 
> 
> ===========================================
> 
> All of these filters claim to have a minimal 0.5 dB of insertion loss in the UHF band.



Very good information. If you had to guess which channel 24 anolog or 26 digital is more likely to be causing most of my problems. Or do you think I would need to filter both. At $30.00 a pop I would like to make an educated guess and try one at a time. My guess is that the digital signal is more important to filter out but I'm just guessing? I am also intiged with the idea of using a different pre-amp but my guess is being only 8 miles from a strong signal is going to be a problem for any amp?


----------



## holl_ands

Quote:

Originally Posted by *davefre99*
Very good information. If you had to guess which channel 24 anolog or 26 digital is more likely to be causing most of my problems. Or do you think I would need to filter both. At $30.00 a pop I would like to make an educated guess and try one at a time. My guess is that the digital signal is more important to filter out but I'm just guessing? I am also intiged with the idea of using a different pre-amp but my guess is being only 8 miles from a strong signal is going to be a problem for any amp?
Unfortunately for you, BOTH are at high level...only a few dB difference....

I would call it about even when you also consider the different duty cycles.

Although the peak power for DTV CH26 was somewhat higher than analog CH24,

the latter has a much higher duty factor for those repetitive sync pulses.


A high gain Preamp (CM7775/7777, Spartan, AP8700, both B-T) is the absolute WORST choice for a Preamp from an overload point of view....

As was seen in the Overload Spread Sheet I posted as part of Santa Rosa DTV Fade Margin calculation:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST20070 


The lower gain W-G AP4700 and HDP-269 are much better suited for use with nearby transmitters.

I updated the overload calculations for your location, assuming a -15 dB null directed towards San Bernardino.

[The antenna specs no doubt claim more than this, but I like to include backscatter signal pickup as a limiting factor.]


Despite the antenna null, high gain Preamps would be operating either close to or in excess of the spec overload point,

except for the low gain W-G AP4700 (or equivalent) and W-G HDP-269.


In order to maximize the Spurious Free Dynamic Range (SFDR), a Preamp needs to be operated with the maximum input signals well below the spec overload point (i.e. 15 to 20 dB below), as was discussed in the thread cited above.


The AP4700 calculations for your situation indicated that this derating would be somewhat marginal.

The HDP-269 would be a much better choice for a Preamp with a nearby transmitter.

 

DTV Overload Calc for davefre99 RevC.zip 6.759765625k . file


----------



## penguin killer

So I currently own a Silver Sensor antenna to pick up local HDs here in a suburb of Seattle. According to the antennaweb.org site, the CBS, NBC, ABC affiliates are all roughly 16 miles away. The good news is that I can get them in with the silver sensor. If someone walks around in front of the antenna though, they go away. That's not a big deal.


My real problem is that I'm trying to pull in FOX which is about 35 miles away and is not at the same angle (249 versus 266). I'm able to get it in in spurts if I move the antenna, but I can never keep the signal for a consistent period of time. After reading the forums here, I thought I'd try attaching a CM 7777 pre-amp. No luck. I get the same results with and without the pre-amp. Based on my antenna web results, can anyone recommend anything I can do from an indoor antenna perspective that might work. Worst case scenario, I'll entertain outdoor antennas, but I'd really like to avoid that.

 


Thanks.


----------



## holl_ands

That link is to the thumbnail. Deleting ".th" from the link yields the following:
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1...results7qb.jpg 


Yikes!!!! Transmitters are only 5.3 miles away.

OVERLOAD!!! OVERLOAD!!! OVERLOAD!!!!

A high gain Preamp, like the CM7777, is the absolute worst thing to do.


You could try a low gain Preamp, like the W-G HDP-269 or AP4700 discussed above,

but I would expect better results using a reasonable gain antenna (like CM4221, PR4400 or DB4)

mounted as high as you can get it.....either in the attic or better still on the roof.

Start by pointing towards about 255 degrees and hope that the nearby signals coming into the back of the antenna are not degraded too much.


If you have problems with the nearby transmitters and don't want to use a rotator, then you're looking at a dual antenna system with an RF Selector Switch.


If you want to try a dual antenna combiner instead of the RF switch, you might want to use antennas with narrower beamwidth to reduce multipath when they are combined.


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

I got the CM balun from the local place the other day, and I see it has *solid* wires which should attach nicely to my antenna terminals. The ones that come with spades (well, from RS at least) seem to be stranded, which is why I thought I'd want to add them. Anyway, I'll report any difference between the old RS balun and the new CM after I try it.












Just a quick question before I tidy-up my grounding stuff... is it OK to run the antenna/mast ground wire "through" the satellite dish's ground to avoid 2 wires? I assume so, since you can go "through" the grounding block, but want to make sure. The dish is only a couple feet away from where the antenna's wire would run anyway.


----------



## kezug

I live in NW Indiana and have gone to Antennaweb.org to get information regarding the stations I can pick up.


According to the results the large directional antenna (violet) gets me most of the stations from Chicago. However, it doesnt get me 2.1 for WBBM, but it does show that I can use a small directional antenna to get this. My question is this, according to the map rendered, the large directional encompasses the signal for WBBM small directional antenna...so will I get WBBM or not using a Violet for antenna type? (violet = large directional)


WYCC-DT 20.1 PBS CHICAGO IL 310° 34.1 21

* red - vhf WBBM-DT 2.1 CBS CHICAGO IL 310° 34.1 3

blue - uhf WXFT 60 TFA AURORA IL 308° 33.8 60

blue - vhf WBBM 2 CBS CHICAGO IL 310° 34.1 2

blue - vhf WGN 9 WB CHICAGO IL 310° 34.1 9

blue - uhf WCIU 26 IND CHICAGO IL 308° 33.8 26

blue - uhf WPWR 50 UPN GARY IN 308° 33.8 50

blue - uhf WSBT 22 CBS SOUTH BEND IN 91° 45.4 22

blue - uhf WJYS 62 REL HAMMOND IN 268° 35.8 62

blue - uhf WSNS 44 TEL CHICAGO IL 308° 33.8 44

blue - uhf WNDU 16 NBC SOUTH BEND IN 92° 45.7 16

violet - uhf WNIT 34 PBS SOUTH BEND IN 92° 46.5 34

violet - vhf WLS 7 ABC CHICAGO IL 308° 33.7 7

violet - vhf WMAQ 5 NBC CHICAGO IL 308° 33.7 5

* violet - uhf WMAQ-DT 5.1 NBC CHICAGO IL 308° 33.8 29

violet - uhf WOCH-LP 28 ETH CHICAGO IL 310° 34.1 28

violet - uhf WSJV 28 FOX ELKHART IN 92° 46.6 28

* violet - uhf WPWR-DT 50.1 UPN GARY IN 308° 33.8 51

violet - vhf WTTW 11 PBS CHICAGO IL 308° 33.7 11

violet - uhf WMWB-LP 25 WB SOUTH BEND IN 92° 47.0 25

violet - uhf WHME 46 REL SOUTH BEND IN 93° 48.3 46

violet - uhf WBND-LP 57 ABC SOUTH BEND, ETC. IN 92° 47.0 57

* violet - uhf WGN-DT 9.1 WB CHICAGO IL 308° 33.8 19

violet - uhf WFBT-CA 48 IND BLUE ISLAND IL 267° 39.5 48

violet - uhf WWME-CA 23 IND CHICAGO IL 308° 33.8 23


----------



## kezug

So if a Large Directional antenna is recommended (via antennaweb.org) than where do I find such an antenna?


----------



## kezug

Sorry for all the questions....


But once I do mount this antenna, can I feed it to my existing centralized location for my coax Cable feed (no cable signal) into all of my tv's throughout the house for non-digital signals just to pickup locals? Then I would pass the HD feed into my HDTV seperately.


Nothing is simple! But I am tired of paying Comcast and am looking for alternatives.


----------



## greywolf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just a quick question before I tidy-up my grounding stuff... is it OK to run the antenna/mast ground wire "through" the satellite dish's ground to avoid 2 wires?



I would. If you are concerned about building code compliance, contact your local building department. Codes vary.


----------



## hdtv4prs

I live about 40-45 south of the Cleveland transmiters and I am upgrading my 20 year old OTA antenna system since I have recently purchased a Sony HDTV. The 2 vhf stations are about 40 miles away and the farthest uhf stations are 45 miles north and 1 uhf station is 48 miles northeast. My 20 year old 160 " Radioshack vhf/uhf antenna is mounted on a 30' tower/rotor with a radioshack 30dB pre-amp. With 4 tv's ,a 2 way spliter, a 4 way spliter with a total of about 140' of coax cable that I counted in the system from the antenna to the network decribed.With my limited knowledge, I roughly estimated my cable and spliter loses at about 26dB(are these figures about right??). Read that you should add another 10 dB for other loses??. This would bring total loses at about 36dB ??


Looking at posts in this forum, it seems like the best quality antenna's and seem to be the Wineguards. The following are possible choices:

Wineguard HD 8200P or HD 7084P vhf/uhf antennas


Wineguard AP-8275 pre-amp

AP-8700 pre-amp


Channel Master 7777 pre-amp


What is a good choice for the antenna and pre-amp combination based on my present setup? Would I overload by getting too big an antenna or too high gain pre-amp? With My old antenna system , I Have picked up most of the HD programs that is listed from info from antennaweb.org. Some of the uhf stations have droped off at times and I haven't picked up some uhf stations at 45 miles.


Any suggestions/recommendations would be welcommed.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kezug* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But once I do mount this antenna, can I feed it to my existing centralized location for my coax Cable feed (no cable signal) into all of my tv's throughout the house for non-digital signals just to pickup locals? Then I would pass the HD feed into my HDTV seperately.
> 
> 
> Nothing is simple! But I am tired of paying Comcast and am looking for alternatives.



You need a VHF/UHF antenna to get all the stations you listed. And since they are scattered around you, you'll need a rotor, too. I'd look at the Winegard HD8200P with a preamplifier like the Channel Master 7777 or the Winegard AP-8275.


Under almost all circumstances, a larger than recommended antenna will not hurt you.


You can use your current wiring to distribute the signal from the antenna through the house. It should be okay. (Exception: if you have a lot of splitters, you may not get enough signal.) (Second exception: you must hook the preamplifier indoor unit before any splitters - so where the cable comes into the house. Splitters usually don't pass DC power, which is what the indoor unit pumps out to the outdoor unit.) You don't need separte wiring for HD reception.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hdtv4prs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Looking at posts in this forum, it seems like the best quality antenna's and seem to be the Wineguards. The following are possible choices:
> 
> Wineguard HD 8200P or HD 7084P vhf/uhf antennas
> 
> 
> Wineguard AP-8275 pre-amp
> 
> AP-8700 pre-amp
> 
> 
> Channel Master 7777 pre-amp
> 
> 
> What is a good choice for the antenna and pre-amp combination based on my present setup? Would I overload by getting too big an antenna or too high gain pre-amp?



I vote for the 8200P and the 8275 preamp.


Unless you have a broadcasting tower (including FM) nearby, you don't have to worry about overloading.


----------



## davefre99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Unfortunately for you, BOTH are at high level...only a few dB difference....
> 
> I would call it about even when you also consider the different duty cycles.
> 
> Although the peak power for DTV CH26 was somewhat higher than analog CH24,
> 
> the latter has a much higher duty factor for those repetitive sync pulses.
> 
> 
> A high gain Preamp (CM7775/7777, Spartan, AP8700, both B-T) is the absolute WORST choice for a Preamp from an overload point of view....
> 
> As was seen in the Overload Spread Sheet I posted as part of Santa Rosa DTV Fade Margin calculation:
> http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST20070
> 
> 
> The lower gain W-G AP4700 and HDP-269 are much better suited for use with nearby transmitters.
> 
> I updated the overload calculations for your location, assuming a -15 dB null directed towards San Bernardino.
> 
> [The antenna specs no doubt claim more than this, but I like to include backscatter signal pickup as a limiting factor.]
> 
> 
> Despite the antenna null, high gain Preamps would be operating either close to or in excess of the spec overload point,
> 
> except for the low gain W-G AP4700 (or equivalent) and W-G HDP-269.
> 
> 
> In order to maximize the Spurious Free Dynamic Range (SFDR), a Preamp needs to be operated with the maximum input signals well below the spec overload point (i.e. 15 to 20 dB below), as was discussed in the thread cited above.
> 
> 
> The AP4700 calculations for your situation indicated that this derating would be somewhat marginal.
> 
> The HDP-269 would be a much better choice for a Preamp with a nearby transmitter.



Holl_ands

I do not fully understand the spreadsheets but I think you are suggesting that I would probably be best off using a an HDP-269 preamp and both ch 24,26 Antenna Jouners to obtain a -15db null on those close channels with my antenna pointed straight at MT Wilson instead of of Axis as I am doing now. If that would work then the cost would not be all that bad at just over $100.00 for everything. I wonder if the lower gain of the HDP-269 will stll be enough for the weaker distant channels from LA though.

At any rate thanks for all your input and at least I have a lot of options to think about.

Dave.


----------



## penguin killer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That link is to the thumbnail. Deleting ".th" from the link yields the following:
> http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1...results7qb.jpg
> 
> 
> Yikes!!!! Transmitters are only 5.3 miles away.
> 
> OVERLOAD!!! OVERLOAD!!! OVERLOAD!!!!
> 
> A high gain Preamp, like the CM7777, is the absolute worst thing to do.



Thanks for the help. I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying. So there are nearby transmitters 5 miles away, but they carry the channels I don't care about and the transmitter is located at a big angle difference from the transmitters I do care about. Does that impact anything you recommended? I do appreciate the help. Are the lower gain pre-amps still the best route?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kezug* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So if a Large Directional antenna is recommended (via antennaweb.org) than where do I find such an antenna?



Warren Electronics, Moline, IL.

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penguin killer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the help. I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying. So there are nearby transmitters 5 miles away, but they carry the channels I don't care about and the transmitter is located at a big angle difference from the transmitters I do care about. Does that impact anything you recommended? I do appreciate the help. Are the lower gain pre-amps still the best route?



Nearby transmitters are a difficult problem to overcome....or at least minimize the effects.

davefre99 uses a highly directional antenna (CM4228) to steer a sidelobe null towards the undesired nearby transmitter....and even then should be using the lowest gain Preamp in order to minimize the intermod distortion products in the Preamp and hence obtain the maximum dynamic range to (hopefully) receive the weaker signals.


In your case, you would be better off using an antenna with a fairly high Front-To-Back Ratio (F/B) and either no Preamp or the lowest gain WG HDP-269.


The CM4221 is an inexpensive starting point, with the CM4228 the next step up.

Even higher F/B is provided by the Antennas Direct 43XG and 91XG.

However, even with a high F/B ratio, the strong nearby signal will be bounced off of nearby buildings/hills into different azimuths on the antenna, so going all out for the best F/B will probably have diminishing returns on investment.


If you have an attic you want to use, you might be able to reduce the undesired signal (i.e. improve the F/B) by stringing up some chicken wire fencing (or whatever) between the antenna and the nearby transmitters.


So try what's inexpensive and preferably returnable first....


----------



## boondocks

What an absolutely great thread! The first post with all its' links is pure gravy.

Looks like I have a lot of reading material to dive into.

....and to think, all I started out to do was buy an antenna.....


----------



## hoggy

I'm in need of an indoor antenna for my hdtv. I would be purchasing it at best buy for several reasons, none of which are important. Can anybody give me an idea of what the best antenna that best buy sells for my application. I'de guess at most I am about 40 miles from Indianapolis tower. Thanks.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *davefre99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Holl_ands
> 
> I do not fully understand the spreadsheets but I think you are suggesting that I would probably be best off using a an HDP-269 preamp and both ch 24,26 Antenna Jouners to obtain a -15db null on those close channels with my antenna pointed straight at MT Wilson instead of of Axis as I am doing now. If that would work then the cost would not be all that bad at just over $100.00 for everything. I wonder if the lower gain of the HDP-269 will stll be enough for the weaker distant channels from LA though.
> 
> At any rate thanks for all your input and at least I have a lot of options to think about.
> 
> Dave.



I did some more calculations, assuming you pointed the antenna towards MtWilson/SanBern.

The lower gain Preamp would probably still have problems picking up MtWilson due to intermods from SanBern.


I have a few more numbers to crunch (HDP-269 vs other Preamps) before I post it.


Suggest you start by ordering the JoinTennas (or preferably a pair of WG UT-2700 Dual Notch Filters).


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hoggy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm in need of an indoor antenna for my hdtv. I would be purchasing it at best buy for several reasons, none of which are important. Can anybody give me an idea of what the best antenna that best buy sells for my application. I'de guess at most I am about 40 miles from Indianapolis tower. Thanks.



40 miles is asking a bit much for an indoor antenna. If you are going to spend the time and $$$ to try it, buy a CM 4228, and hang it on a wall. If it doesn't work, you can always put it where antennas belong, *outside!*

....jc


----------



## kezug




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You need a VHF/UHF antenna to get all the stations you listed. And since they are scattered around you, you'll need a rotor, too. I'd look at the Winegard HD8200P with a preamplifier like the Channel Master 7777 or the Winegard AP-8275.
> 
> 
> Under almost all circumstances, a larger than recommended antenna will not hurt you.
> 
> 
> You can use your current wiring to distribute the signal from the antenna through the house. It should be okay. (Exception: if you have a lot of splitters, you may not get enough signal.) (Second exception: you must hook the preamplifier indoor unit before any splitters - so where the cable comes into the house. Splitters usually don't pass DC power, which is what the indoor unit pumps out to the outdoor unit.) You don't need separte wiring for HD reception.



You mention a VHF/UHF antenna with rotor to get these signals...but I also want to pick up some of the HD signals too. Is this a seperate antenna or is it all included with certain models?


----------



## kezug

I am sorry for posting this "off topic" here, but I value your opinions on this site, and quite frankly dont know where else to go to get a straight answer.


Since doing research for HDTV OTA and antenna's I have been pointed to several antenna web sites and came across a product I know I definitely need...and that is a good FM antenna. However, I am unsure of how to wire up this antenna to my stereos in my house. Now my stereos have COAX input for antenna FM at 75 Ohms)...is it as simple as connecting COAX to this antenna and feeding into my hub of cable wires in the basement...then splitting from my TV input to my stereo to get the FM signal?


Is it ok to have the FM signal running on the same cable that is also providing my Cable TV and Cable Internet? (I know it may be best to dedicate, but for SD and Internet is it ok to run FM too?)


Thanks.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kezug* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You mention a VHF/UHF antenna with rotor to get these signals...but I also want to pick up some of the HD signals too. Is this a seperate antenna or is it all included with certain models?



sregener can explain this. *But there is no such thing as an HD antenna!*









....jc


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kezug* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Since doing research for HDTV OTA and antenna's I have been pointed to several antenna web sites and came across a product I know I definitely need...and that is a good FM antenna. However, I am unsure of how to wire up this antenna to my stereos in my house. Now my stereos have COAX input for antenna FM at 75 Ohms)...is it as simple as connecting COAX to this antenna and feeding into my hub of cable wires in the basement...then splitting from my TV input to my stereo to get the FM signal?



I have what has been suggested, 8200, and I use it for UHF/VHF/FM. Now I live in the sticks, so there are no FM stations to worry about interfering with my TV signals. After the preamp, the cable is inserted into my whole house distribution system. All outlets can be used for UHF/VHF/FM. Of course that includes HD. Just split the signal from a outlet, and feed both the TV and the FM receiver. No TV? Then straight into the FM receiver.

....jc


----------



## kezug




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> sregener can explain this. *But there is no such thing as an HD antenna!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....jc



Ok, ok...so I am sure I got funny looks on that question...but really...do I just use the UHF/VHF antenna to pick up the digital signals for HD?


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kezug* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ok, ok...so I am sure I got funny looks on that question...but really...do I just use the UHF/VHF antenna to pick up the digital signals for HD?



Yup. HD is being broadcast on both(depending on your locale) UHF and VHF. This is the very same as analog TV.


I'm not mocking you! Apparently the 'spin' on some aspects of HDTV have been quite effective!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Winegard Marketing* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey, if we add an HD in front of our model numbers, and tell the dummies that this is an HD antenna, we can charge more for it!
> 
> 
> Good job Rosco, you're VP material my boy!



....jc


----------



## hoggy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 40 miles is asking a bit much for an indoor antenna. If you are going to spend the time and $$$ to try it, buy a CM 4228, and hang it on a wall. If it doesn't work, you can always put it where antennas belong, *outside!*
> 
> ....jc



I'm stuck with an indoor antenna for the time being and I know people much further away from sources that are getting signal with indoor antennas so I should probably be fine. I am still looking for a recommendation on something I can get at best buy, I have a gift card and there is nothing else from there that I need currently, plus I am an employee so the discount is big plus too.


Brian


----------



## bt-rtp

kezug,


Option 1 -- perhaps your cable company actually carries the FM stations on the cable system. Many do. Try this first. If they do, the station frequencies will be slightly re-arranged to work around problems with "direct pick up". (which is another subject). Their web site might have a station guide for this if so.


Option 2 -- Get an omni-directional FM antenna


This is available from Stark. Mount it inside your attic just under a high peak of the joists with a short piece of PVC pipe. From the balun (aka matching tranformer) on the antenna run a single dedicated RG-6 cable to your FM receiver. Fish it inside the walls if necessary. You can also use a splitter for multiple receivers. Do *not* combine this FM feed into a cable that is used for anything else such as Cable TV or satellite. That would be bad.


FM transmitter towers exist at numerous sites in all directions of various distances around a given reception location. You can easily research this on various web sites. This is beacuse FM services have a differnet usage model than TV. (lots of listeners in cars for example).


So as a result, FM reception is a very differnet situation than we have with OTA TV transmitter towers which are generally concentrated in one, or two, and potentially even three tower sites that are all within range of an "average greater metropolitan" fixed reception location.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hoggy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm stuck with an indoor antenna for the time being and I know people much further away from sources that are getting signal with indoor antennas so I should probably be fine.



Is there 'magic' in the air out there? Indoor, at 40 miles?







Good luck!

...jc


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hoggy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm stuck with an indoor antenna for the time being and I know people much further away from sources that are getting signal with indoor antennas so I should probably be fine. I am still looking for a recommendation on something I can get at best buy, I have a gift card and there is nothing else from there that I need currently, plus I am an employee so the discount is big plus too.



Sorry to bust your bubble, but Best Buy isn't a good place to buy an antenna. If you *must* buy one there, and it *must* be an indoor model, your best bet would be the Terk HDTVA antenna. But it isn't very good. (Comparable to the Silver Sensor on the gain chart here: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/G...yG.html#indoor )


At 40 miles, you're really pushing things for indoor reception in most areas of the country. There are a few places (Florida and the Mount Wilson towers in LA come to mind) where it's doable, but for the rest of us, there isn't going to be anything but snow to pick up.


Your best bet is to get the largest bowtie model you can find and install it as high as you can. The Channel Master 4228 is the best choice, the 4221 second best, and the AntennasDirect DB2 would be a distant third. A low-noise, high gain preamplifier (Channel Master 7777) would probably help things a little. You're still expecting a miracle unless you're installing this in your attic.


None of these recommendations are available at Best Buy. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Best Buy is a terrible place to buy accessories like video cables, antennas, and the like. Their products are overpriced and rarely perform well. Their antennas may be the worst of the bunch.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kezug* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Since doing research for HDTV OTA and antenna's I have been pointed to several antenna web sites and came across a product I know I definitely need...and that is a good FM antenna. However, I am unsure of how to wire up this antenna to my stereos in my house. Now my stereos have COAX input for antenna FM at 75 Ohms)...is it as simple as connecting COAX to this antenna and feeding into my hub of cable wires in the basement...then splitting from my TV input to my stereo to get the FM signal?
> 
> 
> Is it ok to have the FM signal running on the same cable that is also providing my Cable TV and Cable Internet? (I know it may be best to dedicate, but for SD and Internet is it ok to run FM too?)



You can't combine Cable signals with VHF/UHF/FM signals. They overlap on frequencies, so you'll get nothing but trouble.


A good VHF/UHF antenna will also pick up FM just fine for most applications. Unless you're looking to do some serious DX work, you'll be fine with the FM reception from those antennas. As you suspected, just split off the antenna feed and run one section into your TV and the other into your tuner.


As others have stated, there is no such thing as an "HDTV" antenna. Digital television is broadcast on the same frequencies as analog, and an antenna is designed to receive frequencies; it doesn't care what type of signal is on those frequencies. In Cleveland, there are digital signals on both the UHF and VHF frequencies, so that's why I recommended a VHF/UHF combo antenna. In other markets, all the digitals are on UHF, so those areas can get by with just a UHF antenna.


----------



## hoggy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is there 'magic' in the air out there? Indoor, at 40 miles?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> ...jc



I check antennaweb.org and it says I'm about 36 miles from the transmitters most are concerned with. The people I know further away are about 10-12 miles further away.


I don't have the option of putting an antenna outside at this point in time.


I do have a question off topic a bit though. What are the differences between cable, sat, and ota HDTV picture quality. I know some satalite is really OTA and cable varies depending on provider, but I'm just wondering about it in a general sense.


----------



## Neil L

hoggy,

Generally, OTA has the potential for the best picture. Cable and sat. will usually do some "bit grooming" to make the data fit better into the bandwidth they have available. But, the quality differences may be so small that you will never notice. And then, were I am, most of the OTA broadcasters are using a reduced bit rate for their HDTV channels so they can multi-cast other channels using the rest of their bandwidth, and picture quality suffers. But if your reception is bad OTA, cable or sat. would probably give you a more reliable HD signal. A reliable signal might be better than spotty OTA, even if the bit rate is reduced.


----------



## kezug




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bt-rtp* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> kezug,
> 
> 
> Option 1 -- perhaps your cable company actually carries the FM stations on the cable system. Many do. Try this first. If they do, the station frequencies will be slightly re-arranged to work around problems with "direct pick up". (which is another subject). Their web site might have a station guide for this if so.
> 
> 
> Option 2 -- Get an omni-directional FM antenna
> 
> 
> This is available from Stark. Mount it inside your attic just under a high peak of the joists with a short piece of PVC pipe. From the balun (aka matching tranformer) on the antenna run a single dedicated RG-6 cable to your FM receiver. Fish it inside the walls if necessary. You can also use a splitter for multiple receivers. Do *not* combine this FM feed into a cable that is used for anything else such as Cable TV or satellite. That would be bad.
> 
> 
> FM transmitter towers exist at numerous sites in all directions of various distances around a given reception location. You can easily research this on various web sites. This is beacuse FM services have a differnet usage model than TV. (lots of listeners in cars for example).
> 
> 
> So as a result, FM reception is a very differnet situation than we have with OTA TV transmitter towers which are generally concentrated in one, or two, and potentially even three tower sites that are all within range of an "average greater metropolitan" fixed reception location.



Thanks for all of this information! I checked out Option 1 (see above)...however Comcast (my Cable Provider) web site didnt have any information on whether they carry FM on their line...I am hesitant to even call support to talk to one of their CSRs, as I am sure they will be very puzzled...so does anyone know if Comcast in the Chicago/Indiana area carries FM on its cable system?


----------



## bt-rtp

kezug,


Geez dude, this is a nickel/dime issue. Get off the pennies...


Drop the 20 bucks and throw the antenna in your attic. You will never regret it, especially at night when you receive stations far away from you in other major cities. Childs play....


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil Laffoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> hoggy,
> 
> Generally, OTA has the potential for the best picture. Cable and sat. will usually do some "bit grooming" to make the data fit better into the bandwidth they have available. But, the quality differences may be so small that you will never notice.



Except in philly on directv. The locals on the bird are so bad, if i have a reliable OTA signal (only do on 4 networks), i even record SD stuff OTA on the tivo (taking up 5x the space of SD on satellite). Locals on dtv are that bad for me.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Except in philly on directv. The locals on the bird are so bad, if i have a reliable OTA signal (only do on 4 networks), i even record SD stuff OTA on the tivo (taking up 5x the space of SD on satellite). Locals on dtv are that bad for me.



I think they're asking about HD quality, not SD locals. Are you saying the MPEG4 HD locals from DirecTV are that bad?


----------



## powerusr

Hey Guys,


I am looking for the FCCs Grade B Signal Test or Contour Maps. I used to have it book marked but cannot find it now.


Thanks

p


----------



## blindowl1234

This should be the link or close to it.


----------



## powerusr

Thanks!


I found that one but it does does not give Grade Contours. There was one I found and did a Wayback Machine on http://web.archive.org/web/200406051...w.bsexton.com/ But it is dead now.


p


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *powerusr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> I found that one but it does does not give Grade Contours. There was one I found and did a Wayback Machine on http://web.archive.org/web/200406051...w.bsexton.com/ But it is dead now.
> 
> 
> p



When I put in the call sign at this link:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html 

and then click on a licensed result there are links to the service contour areas. I think the result for an NTSC licensed area may be the map that you are looking for.


----------



## bt-rtp

Does any one know what the warranty length is for a Channel Master 7777 ?


----------



## powerusr

Thanks Guys.


Apparently not only am I dumb but I cannot see to well ether.


p


----------



## arxaw

Check with AVSForum site sponsors or Warren Electronics at their home page.


----------



## newsposter

would a jointenna help me in this situation? I read the warrenelectronics page but am unclear.


my uhf channels are 26 32 42 54 64 67


All are at 130 degrees except channel 42, at 128. I'm doing an in attic thing and have signals in the 80s for all channels but 42 and 54. At this point, I'm not worried about 54. But 42 is important to me. I took down the DB8 and tried other places in the attic. I can achieve a 68 signal but then the other channels drop to 70s or worse and dont inspire confidence.


So, if I get another antenna and aim that only for channel 42, do i just call warren and ask for a jointenna to receive channel 42? Then will that block channel 42 from the DB8 and only pick up channel 42 from my new antenna (will shop locally for return privledges). I just want to make sure before I do anything that this is how it works.


The antennas would be about 5 ft apart horizontally hanging from my attic rafters.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> would a jointenna help me in this situation?



That's what they are made for.



> Quote:
> So, if I get another antenna and aim that only for channel 42, do i just call warren and ask for a jointenna to receive channel 42? Then will that block channel 42 from the DB8 and only pick up channel 42 from my new antenna (will shop locally for return privledges). I just want to make sure before I do anything that this is how it works.



Yup. The JT will also block or degrade a channel or two either side of the target channel(but it doesn't look to be a problem for you







). Your cable will run from the DB8 to the JT, and from the new antenna to the JT. Then 1 cable to your TV/Distribution point. A preamp, if used, is added at the output of the JT.

....jc


----------



## gmarcotte

i have a dish network 811 box and the antenna that came with it is doing nothing, i was just wondering if i can use a cable to put this little antenna up in the attic and if so what kind of cable do i need. thanks


grady


----------



## ScottFern

Hello,


I just bought a Vizio P50PD 50" plasma and I was looking for the best indoor antenna that I can connect via HDMI to this display.


What do you experts at AVS recommend?? Also, is it even possible to buy an OTA antenna with a HDMI input?


Thanks!

Andrew


----------



## Colm

I am assuming by display you mean monitor, as opposed to TV (no tuner built in). There is no such thing as an antenna that connects to HDMI. HDMI is a digital interface used to connect a tuner, DVR, or other device. You need a tuner (set top box, STB). The antenna connects to the STB via coaxial cable. The STB connects to the monitor via HDMI (if that is the interface you want to use).


----------



## ScottFern




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am assuming by display you mean monitor, as opposed to TV (no tuner built in). There is no such thing as an antenna that connects to HDMI. HDMI is a digital interface used to connect a tuner, DVR, or other device. You need a tuner (set top box, STB). The antenna connects to the STB via coaxial cable. The STB connects to the monitor via HDMI (if that is the interface you want to use).



Thanks for the quick response! Sorry, I am new to the HDTV/OTA field. You cleared up what I had confused. I guess I will stop by RadioShack tomorrow and see what they have.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ScottFern* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> 
> I just bought a Vizio P50PD 50" plasma and I was looking for the best indoor antenna that I can connect via HDMI to this display.
> 
> 
> What do you experts at AVS recommend?? Also, is it even possible to buy an OTA antenna with a HDMI input?
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Andrew



Google didn't know what a V, Inc Visio P50PD was....so I'm not sure what you have and whether it already has a built-in ATSC On-Air Hi-Def tuner.

If it is the Visio P50 HDM, then it is a Monitor without any built-in cable or on-air tuner. These would need a stand-alone On-The-Air STB.


The R-S Accurian HTS-6000 is very highly rated, but is being closed out for only $100, hence they are very hard to locate.


Wal Mart, Best Buy and Circuit City are more likely to have OTA STBs either in stock or available via on-line order.

The $200 models usually are ATSC only and won't tune the analog NTSC stations.

A full featured model will be closer to $300-350.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gmarcotte* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> i have a dish network 811 box and the antenna that came with it is doing nothing, i was just wondering if i can use a cable to put this little antenna up in the attic and if so what kind of cable do i need. thanks



RG-6 with 75 Ohm coaxial connectors on both ends.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That's what they are made for.
> 
> 
> 
> Yup. The JT will also block or degrade a channel or two either side of the target channel(but it doesn't look to be a problem for you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ). Your cable will run from the DB8 to the JT, and from the new antenna to the JT. Then 1 cable to your TV/Distribution point. A preamp, if used, is added at the output of the JT.
> 
> ....jc



my uhf channels are 26 32 42 54 64 67


Thanks...now let me ask this (after playing around yesterday and getting the antenna out of whack)


is there any chance of having the db8 for all channels but 42 AND one of the channels 64 OR 67. It appears I now have problems and even though they are supposed to be in the same direction, when one is in the 80s signal the other one has problems in the 60s to 70s now. I know the best thing is to try to aim better but i cant seem to hit the spot again.


somehow i doubt i can isolate 2 channels but figured i'd ask


----------



## newsposter

Will it make any difference if an amp is between the 50 ft and 75 ft rg6 run versus having it right at the antenna pumping down the full 125 feet? ...i'm assuming the barrel connector between the 2 lines is negligible loss


----------



## Naylia

According to Radioshack.com, the Terk HDTV Amplified Indoor Antenna has been discontinued and they are now only carrying what stock they have in-store currently.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 


Those of you in an area looking for indoor antenna may want to snag one now, you can find out which stores local to you have it still from the website above. If it is truly being discontinued by Terk hopefully we see an improved replacement from them.


EDIT: I can find't any mention on the Audiovox/Terk website that the product is discontinued...it's possible Radioshack may just no longer be carrying them.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...is there any chance of having the db8 for all channels but 42 AND one of the channels 64 OR 67. It appears I now have problems and even though they are supposed to be in the same direction, when one is in the 80s signal the other one has problems in the 60s to 70s now. I know the best thing is to try to aim better but i cant seem to hit the spot again.
> 
> 
> somehow i doubt i can isolate 2 channels but figured i'd ask



Ya mean like this:










Sure, you can 'chain' more than 1 JT.

....jc


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Will it make any difference if an amp is between the 50 ft and 75 ft rg6 run versus having it right at the antenna pumping down the full 125 feet? ...i'm assuming the barrel connector between the 2 lines is negligible loss



Yes. 50'-75' of RG-6 probably has an attenuation loss of 2-4 dB depending on the quality of the cable. So, you want the preamp as close to the antenna as possible. I'm not saying that it won't work, just that it would *work better* if it's closer.

....jc


----------



## swriman

Need some suggestions on weak signal on only one station. I have a outdoor large uhf/vhf antenna. my locals are coming in from 2 differant directions approx. 195degs and 281degs. the channels 4,5,9,12 all feed into my sat receiver and register about 88-92 signal strength while ch 35(281deg) comes in at 60 signal strength. Towers for 4,5,9,12 are only 11mi while 35 is 43mi away. I have found that these signal strengths are coming in with attenna pointed at ch 35.


My question is could i add a preamp to help ch35 signal(boost) without messing up the other stronger signals and what if any preamp would work best??


----------



## the_bear89451

I am seriously considering spraying my antenna with PAM. Is this a crazy idea?


I got so much snow on my antenna that it got moved out of alignment. The snow built up and out on each element. Eventually, the snow buildup on the individual elements began to touch. Now the whole antenna became a bed for snow to build up on. The antenna bent over pretty far and eventually snapped straight as the snow fell off, but now it's pointed the wrong way and a little permanent bend.


----------



## arxaw

If you have VHF & UHF digital channels (check your address at antennaweb.org), use the CM 7777 preamp in the link above your post. If UHF only, get the CM 7775.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ya mean like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, you can 'chain' more than 1 JT.
> 
> ....jc



I like the pic and possibility...but i was thinking of just 2 antennas...one for all but channel 42 and 67or64....I'm thinking I can line up 42 and either 64 or 67 but 64 and 67 wont come in well at the same time. So if i can just aim one of them along with 42, it would work out pretty good


i guess i have the option in your picture but that's a bit more than i wanted to pay


----------



## swriman

Another question please. How much attenuation would large trees directly in the path of attenna to towers effect the loss of signal.


----------



## silicon

I have gone through some pages here, also reviewed few web sites such as antennadirect etc and other forums, help pages to find which antenna is best for my HDTV reception.


I reviewed DB2, DB4 and few others PHDTV3, MANT510, ANT200, ANT1250.


ANT1250 and MANT510 looks amplified antenna with 45dB, 50dB respectively, can also receive VHF, UHF, HDTV. Verified ANT1250 is not so good (may be the one I tested is defective!)


PHDTV3 (Phillips) says 10 dB amplification, costs more than MANT510 which says 50 dB amplification. Is it better to go for PHDTV3 or MANT510?


I tried ANT1250 (RCA) which gets 9 channels with ATSC tuner. Not satified, I tried low end ANT200 (RCA) which is getting 19 channels.


Some place, people refer DB2 and DB4 are good. I can not go to DB4, but can go for DB2 (indoor only). With all these technical jargons about dB (decibel) amplification, I am confused a lot.


Experts, any help or review or feedback?


Thanks in advance.


Silicon


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *silicon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> With all these technical jargons about dB (decibel) amplification, I am confused a lot.



Amplification is mostly marketing for indoor antennas. What really matters is gain, and they aren't exactly publishing those specs, are they? Once you've overcome line loss (minimal with an indoor antenna) and the noise factor of the receiver (at worst, 10dB for UHF) all amplification does is make things worse. And the amplifiers built into most indoor antennas are terrible because they introduce a lot of noise - something you don't want with digital reception.


The DB2 is the best indoor antenna out there. The DB4 would work indoors if you had a place you could put it, or even the DB8. The only thing keeping an outdoor antenna outdoors is when it doesn't fit indoors. When you get to the 15' long by 10' wide antennas, most people would prefer to keep that out of their living room, assuming they even have a 15'x10' living room.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *the_bear89451* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am seriously considering spraying my antenna with PAM. Is this a crazy idea?


*Yes.* Although the eggs on Sunday morning won't stick to it! You could try sending 230 volts through it!










> Quote:
> I got so much snow on my antenna that it got moved out of alignment. The snow built up and out on each element. Eventually, the snow buildup on the individual elements began to touch. Now the whole antenna became a bed for snow to build up on. The antenna bent over pretty far and eventually snapped straight as the snow fell off, but now it's pointed the wrong way and a little permanent bend.



Weird, I've never really heard of that. I've got multiple antennas, and I've never had any snow build up. Satellite dishes, *yes*, but not on the antennas.


Do you have any Cottonwood trees in your area? If so, the antenna could end up looking like polar bear in the summer!


I'd just say no. I'm sure that after the PAM sits for a while in the weather, that it would either disappear, or get really sticky. Then again, you may have just invented the super antenna!

....jc


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *the_bear89451* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am seriously considering spraying my antenna with PAM. Is this a crazy idea?
> 
> 
> I got so much snow on my antenna that it got moved out of alignment. The snow built up and out on each element. Eventually, the snow buildup on the individual elements began to touch. Now the whole antenna became a bed for snow to build up on. The antenna bent over pretty far and eventually snapped straight as the snow fell off, but now it's pointed the wrong way and a little permanent bend.



What kind of antenna was it????

So how much do you think was ice that then collected snow????


----------



## Jim5506




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Will it make any difference if an amp is between the 50 ft and 75 ft rg6 run versus having it right at the antenna pumping down the full 125 feet? ...i'm assuming the barrel connector between the 2 lines is negligible loss



It could work, just remember that you are amplifying everything that comes into the input side of the amplifier, noise, static, RF, and any other junk that the cable picked up since the antenna injected the signal.


----------



## TheRatPatrol




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Naylia* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> According to Radioshack.com, the Terk HDTV Amplified Indoor Antenna has been discontinued and they are now only carrying what stock they have in-store currently.
> 
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search
> 
> 
> Those of you in an area looking for indoor antenna may want to snag one now, you can find out which stores local to you have it still from the website above. If it is truly being discontinued by Terk hopefully we see an improved replacement from them.
> 
> 
> EDIT: I can find't any mention on the Audiovox/Terk website that the product is discontinued...it's possible Radioshack may just no longer be carrying them.



Does anyone have this antenna and if so how well does it work? Thanks.


----------



## the_bear89451




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What kind of antenna was it????
> 
> So how much do you think was ice that then collected snow????



The antenna is a Funke PSP.1922, so the spacing between the elements is pretty big as well as the total length. The storm that hit the Sierras the past few days started out warm (rain) and then turned colder (snow). I think this combination of water already on the antenna freezing at the same time new snow was falling on it caused the buildup. While that weather pattern is unusual, it does happens a few times each year. I am somewhat amazed how close to straight the antenna bounced back to. I am now hit or miss with getting locks. Without LOS, I usually get a pretty strong signal once there are a few feet of snow on the ground, which I assume is caused by signal reflection. I have a metal roof, so I am in no hurry to straighten the antenna with snow up there. I also thought about trying a layer of WD40.


----------



## silicon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Amplification is mostly marketing for indoor antennas. What really matters is gain, and they aren't exactly publishing those specs, are they? Once you've overcome line loss (minimal with an indoor antenna) and the noise factor of the receiver (at worst, 10dB for UHF) all amplification does is make things worse. And the amplifiers built into most indoor antennas are terrible because they introduce a lot of noise - something you don't want with digital reception.
> 
> 
> The DB2 is the best indoor antenna out there. The DB4 would work indoors if you had a place you could put it, or even the DB8. The only thing keeping an outdoor antenna outdoors is when it doesn't fit indoors. When you get to the 15' long by 10' wide antennas, most people would prefer to keep that out of their living room, assuming they even have a 15'x10' living room.




Thank you sregener, for the detailed information.


Silicon


----------



## BovineD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *theratpatrol* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does anyone have this antenna and if so how well does it work? Thanks.



First post here so hopefully I can add some info to these great forums. I actually was just about to post my personal OTA HD story and I see that a couple of people are asking about the Terk HDTVa amplified indoor antenna. I received my Directv HR10-250 unit the day after Christmas as I finally got the deal I had been chasing (150$ after instant rebates). Hooked it up to my 57" Hitachi RPTV with the DVI connector and was blown away by the HD picture. Selectable 480p/720p/1080i on the unit is awesome. After enjoying the free prgramming for about a week I started hunting for a good OTA connection for my location which is in Tracy, CA with the folowing antenna info:


* yellow - uhf KTXL-DT 40.1 FOX SACRAMENTO CA 338° 37.0 55

* yellow - uhf KVIE-DT 6.1 PBS SACRAMENTO CA 338° 37.0 53

* yellow - uhf KSPX-DT 29.1 i SACRAMENTO CA 338° 36.8 48

* yellow - uhf KQCA-DT 58.1 WB STOCKTON CA 341° 36.4 46

* yellow - uhf KOVR-DT 13.1 CBS STOCKTON CA 338° 34.9 25

* yellow - uhf KCRA-DT 3.1 NBC SACRAMENTO CA 339° 35.4 35

* green - uhf KXTV-DT 10.1 ABC SACRAMENTO CA 338° 34.9 61

* lt green - uhf KUVS-DT 19.1 UNI MODESTO CA 40° 46.8 18

* lt green - uhf KMAX-DT 31.1 UPN SACRAMENTO CA 340° 36.5 21

* red - uhf KTFK-DT 64.1 SAH STOCKTON CA TBD 275° 28.1 62

* blue - uhf KTNC-DT 42.1 AZA CONCORD CA 277° 27.4 63

* violet - vhf KNTV-DT 11.1 NBC SAN JOSE CA 251° 54.7 12


I immediately started to look for the Zenith Silver Sensor after reading about the great success people have had with it for indoor single level houses. My house is stucco wall with some insulation with my TV in the main living room with only one side of windows. I could not find a place to purchase the SS so I started mucking around the local radio shack and other brick and mortars for any decent UHF antennas to get a baseline for what kind of signals I would get.


I started with this model from BestBuy:


RCA ANT301 (Cant post links yet I guess...)


Avoid this stinker. I was barely able to get 40-50 signal strength on the closest towers and the signal was unwatchable. Returned unit


Next I went with a couple of generic units:


RCA RCA Amplified VHF/HDTV/UHF/FM Antenna, ANT1250


Philips Silver Sensor PHDTV3


First unit seemed slightly better giving around 60-70 on the signal strength but I had to move the unit from one location to a completely different location to received NBC and CBS correctly so that meant moving it around ALOT.


Second unit was by far the worst barely giving me 20-30 on the close towers. Might have picked up NBC once. Returned both units.


Getting desperate to view real OTA HD I went back to bestbuy after researching the Terk HDTVa antenna. Read alot about how Terks were overpriced and underpowered but I went ahead and grabbed one anyways. What could I lose at this point.


I noticed a huge improvement from the moment I hooked it up. With some fine tuning I was able to get 7 of 9 stations at 85 and above with the last two of WB and CBS givign really sporadic signals jumping from 10 to 80. Going to try and figure out why that is but FOX and NBC was what I really needed so i may just stay with this setup. I might still try a Zenith SS just to compare but 60 bucks for indoor OTA signals is fine by me. Hope this helps with anyone on the fence about this unit!


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *the_bear89451* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The antenna is a Funke PSP.1922, so the spacing between the elements is pretty big as well as the total length. The storm that hit the Sierras the past few days started out warm (rain) and then turned colder (snow). I think this combination of water already on the antenna freezing at the same time new snow was falling on it caused the buildup. While that weather pattern is unusual, it does happens a few times each year. I am somewhat amazed how close to straight the antenna bounced back to. I am now hit or miss with getting locks. Without LOS, I usually get a pretty strong signal once there are a few feet of snow on the ground, which I assume is caused by signal reflection. I have a metal roof, so I am in no hurry to straighten the antenna with snow up there. I also thought about trying a layer of WD40.



Yikes....the Funke site shows it as being a hi-band VHF Corner Yagi with 14 directors, folded dipole driven element and a reflector.....nearly 4 meters worth!!!!
http://www.funke.nl/prod_files/aeria..._790500985.pdf 

At least it had conventional rods rather than X-shaped directors (e.g. 91XG)....they must be a real problem in snow country....


We don't have these kinds of problems, here in WD40's hometown.

FYI: "Prevents antenna from freezing during winter " -- From 2000 Uses for WD-40.

But doesn't say anything about snow buildup....I would worry about it getting gummy when sub-zero...
http://www.twbc.org/wd40.htm 


Silicone, Teflon (Dupont) or PTFE (generic) spray lubricants are other options.....

The performance under sub-zero temps is important to know....
http://www.super-lube.com/product_description.htm 
http://www.super-lube.com/Features_a...llications.htm 

Super Lube Aerosol evaporates and leaves a film that is very slick and not sticky (my own experience confirms this).

They claim that it continues to be slippery, even in freezing temps. (I cannot confirm.)


I have a can of each type in the garage and would recommend you try a can of Super Lube PTFE Aerosol.


----------



## arxaw

It depends on the type of trees, thickness of trees, and even the frequencies the stations are broadcasting on. Can't tell from here.


I think the worst problem with trees is signal strength _fluctuation_ in the wind, which can play hell with some digital TV tuners. Newer ones are more immune to the problem though.


----------



## Naylia




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *theratpatrol* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does anyone have this antenna and if so how well does it work? Thanks.



Just hooked it up last night...I am in the Boston aread roughly 6 miles from towers spaced between 217 deg and 225 deg and I can pick up all the channels...I was able to pick up all of the channels except for one with just the antenna...I had to add it's little inline amplifier to get every single channel available to me. I'm not sure I'd believe the 45 miles number on the box but if you are relatively near your tower and need an indoor antenna it's not a bad buy if you want something unobtrusive in the room (mine is standing on my corner stand behind the new LCD TV)...another one to look at might be

http://www.antennasdirect.com/SR8_indoor_yagi.html 


but it's currently out of stock there.


I'll be connecting to a Fusion5HDLite for the pc tonight and I'll see if I can get some signal strength readings.


----------



## Naylia

Double post...deleted


----------



## DaveK913

Okay, I've been doing some reading here for awhile, and I guess it's time for me to jump in. I've posted in a couple of places, but this looks to be a very well visited topic here.


A couple of years ago, we had a Sylvania SRZ3000 OTA receiver hooked up to one of the RS double bowtie antennas. We never received a particularly strong signal, and had plenty of signal drop. Needed a few extra dollars and sold it, deciding to wait awhile until technology improved and became more prevalent.


So, we're about to delve back in. We have DirecTV and are going to pick up the H20 receiver(Or the DVR if finances allow), and are looking into getting our OTA HD channels since we're fairly close to our towers. Remembering my previous experience, I decided to look into what's best to use. I haven't dealt with an antenna since the 70's, so I'm kind of out of touch.


We're within 5 miles of all our towers, and they're all within 14 degrees of each other to the southwest(231.65-244.71). The terrain is fairly level about a mile out from our house, then slopes upward ~25 feet over the next mile or so, where there is a patch of trees in the direction of the tower. Over the next 2 miles, the terrain rises about 100 feet or so, then fluctuates slightly but stays fairly steady. The towers are all around 130 feet above our elevation.

Antenna path/topography 


The frequencies for our stations currently are 30, 35, 42, and 58. The stations broadcast between 220 and 560 kW. The towers are all over 900 feet tall, and easily visible from our elevation, but not from our specific vantage point. For more specific information, our zip is 46544.


Our backyard and surrounding area is full of trees. We have 4 over 30 feet tall in our back yard pretty much right in the path from the house to the towers. We have a split level house with aluminum siding. There's a mast on the higher, southern section of the house, total height of around 21 feet. It's east of a 30 foot maple tree that is around 15 feet from the back of the house. The spread of this tree comes right up to the house around 10 feet from the mast. Our television is around 40 feet to the north from this mast.

Immediate area 


This picture is taken from the top of the mast in the direction of the towers.

Mast view at ~238 degrees 


The 30' foot tree is 15' from the house, the 35' is 20 feet, the 50' around 60 feet, the 70' on the right about 60 feet, and the 70' to the left is in a neighbor's yard behind us and to the south also in the general path around 80-90 feet away. The small horizontal red line represents the mast. The lines don't represent the direction completely accurately, since they're done from a frontal perspective rather than from above.

Frontal property perspective 


I was hoping to use either an indoor or attic mount antenna, ideally placing the attic mount over the living room, which is around 3.5-4 feet lower than the upper level. Our roof has a 4/12 pitch and from the ones I've read about, either the AntennasDirect DB2 or DB4 would fit in that space. From the ridge beam to the top of the ceiling joists is around 48 inches, so there's not a lot of room for rotation. We would prefer not having to use a roof mount, and with the one tree so close to the roof it would be mounted on, didn't know if it would be any more feasible than the attic mount if an indoor antenna didn't pan out.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I like the pic and possibility...but i was thinking of just 2 antennas...one for all but channel 42 and 67or64....I'm thinking I can line up 42 and either 64 or 67 but 64 and 67 wont come in well at the same time. So if i can just aim one of them along with 42, it would work out pretty good
> 
> 
> i guess i have the option in your picture but that's a bit more than i wanted to pay



Try this;


One all channel antenna, one antenna for 42/6X. Get jointennas for 42 and 6X. Use a two way splitter on the 42/6X antenna and use that to feed the two jointennas. As long as the 42/6X signals are strong enough, you'll have what you need with two antennas, two jointennas, and a two way splitter.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DaveK913* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> We have a split level house with aluminum siding.
> 
> 
> I was hoping to use either an indoor or attic mount antenna...



You could try something indoors, but your siding is acting like a great big reflector - almost nothing is going to get through it. Unless you can shoot through shingles instead of siding, you'll just get frustrated in there.


That said, a DB4 would be excellent on your roof, and it wouldn't be worthless to try it in the attic first (maybe you'll be lucky...) But plan on the rooftop.


Skip amplifiers - you're too close to the towers.


----------



## DaveK913




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You could try something indoors, but your siding is acting like a great big reflector - almost nothing is going to get through it. Unless you can shoot through shingles instead of siding, you'll just get frustrated in there.
> 
> 
> That said, a DB4 would be excellent on your roof, and it wouldn't be worthless to try it in the attic first (maybe you'll be lucky...) But plan on the rooftop.
> 
> 
> Skip amplifiers - you're too close to the towers.



From what I'd read, I kind of figured that but was hoping how close we were would help.


Would how close the tree at the back of the house is to the mast have a terribly adverse effect considering the tree rises about 10 feet or so above the height of the mast, and would it help to install a new mast closer to the front of the house about 10 feet further from that tree? I have no qualms about doing that and could always use a reciprocating saw to cut the legs off the old one if my wife says it looks like the house is growing shoots.










Thank you for your response!


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Try this;
> 
> 
> One all channel antenna, one antenna for 42/6X. Get jointennas for 42 and 6X. Use a two way splitter on the 42/6X antenna and use that to feed the two jointennas. As long as the 42/6X signals are strong enough, you'll have what you need with two antennas, two jointennas, and a two way splitter.



Thanks for all the options. I love having them available to me because once i get going, i act fast!


and here's a general comment to all:


inches MATTER! I had a few minutes today to adjust the antenna. But first took the amp from between the 75 and 50 ft runs and put it right at the antenna instead. Virtually no difference. BUT, I pushed the antenna up 6 more inches until it was literally touching the inside of the roof. I got a 5-8 boost on the signal for channel 64 and 67 here (but lets see if it's that good in a day or so). 42 is still a no show and 54 is still only 60 signal, but....since I got such improvement on the 60s channels, I feel that i really do have the chance to get good signals all around on the roof. Just gotta find someone to do it.


----------



## TVSaurus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *maxpower2078* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a crazy thought, can I put two signals into my receiver (HDTV PC card) by using a splitter before they enter. So I could buy say the 4228, point it in one direction (28 degrees) and use my indoor antenna to pick up the stations (85 degrees) from the other direction which it does fine? Maybe this is crazy thinking but worth asking I guess. Maybe the tuner can only tune from one antenna at a time or something.



Is this possible? I'd like to do the same exact thing so that I can receive about 6 more HD signals from the opposite direction.


----------



## TheRatPatrol




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Naylia* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just hooked it up last night...I am in the Boston area roughly 6 miles from towers spaced between 217 deg and 225 deg and I can pick up all the channels...I was able to pick up all of the channels except for one with just the antenna...I had to add it's little inline amplifier to get every single channel available to me. I'm not sure I'd believe the 45 miles number on the box but if you are relatively near your tower and need an indoor antenna it's not a bad buy if you want something unobtrusive in the room (mine is standing on my corner stand behind the new LCD TV)...another one to look at might be
> 
> http://www.antennasdirect.com/SR8_indoor_yagi.html
> 
> 
> but it's currently out of stock there. The DB2 is also a potential indoor antenna but it really needs to be attic mounted
> 
> 
> I'll be connecting to a Fusion5HDLite for the pc tonight and I'll see if I can get some signal strength readings.



What kind of building are you in, what floor are you on, and do you have other buildings between you and the towers?


I'm trying to help my friend get an HD signal in his 3 story condo. He occupys all 3 stories. His HDTV is on the 2nd floor.


Thanks.


----------



## rothgar

I did not realize this thread was so long. I read the first 10 pages then skipped through. Great information so far but I have a coupse questions also.


I would like to know about combining antennas to get better signal. 2 antenna's (roof antenna and indoor powered antenna) into 1 hd tuner box. I figure it wouldn't hurt to try but someone might no the specifics of why it would or would not work.


here is my next question. I am in southern California (LA area) and I can see the antenna's that broadcast almost every hd station I would ever need. I am in a 1 story apartment with only trees separating me from the towers. I am 6.4 miles away from the towers according to antennaweb and they suggested a indoor non powered antenna to pull in every channel. I have tried rabit ears, roof antenna (my neighbors), and a powered antenna. I can easily get channels 2,5,7,9 but the channel I really want is 11. All three antenna's have about 50% signal strength no matter what i do (pre amp, line amplifyer, etc) Is there any way (or a better antenna I can try) that can specifically pull in certain channels? the current antenna I am using is the Terk5 but it still wont get more than 50% signal for anything. Please help me out I really would like the rest of the channels. Thank you.


----------



## network23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVSaurus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is this possible? I'd like to do the same exact thing so that I can receive about 6 more HD signals from the opposite direction.




I'm no expert at this, but my guess would be that this would result in a multipath nightmare. (snow and ghosting.)


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rothgar* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I did not realize this thread was so long. I read the first 10 pages then skipped through. Great information so far but I have a coupse questions also.
> 
> 
> I would like to know about combining antennas to get better signal. 2 antenna's (roof antenna and indoor powered antenna) into 1 hd tuner box. I figure it wouldn't hurt to try but someone might no the specifics of why it would or would not work.
> 
> 
> here is my next question. I am in southern California (LA area) and I can see the antenna's that broadcast almost every hd station I would ever need. I am in a 1 story apartment with only trees separating me from the towers. I am 6.4 miles away from the towers according to antennaweb and they suggested a indoor non powered antenna to pull in every channel. I have tried rabit ears, roof antenna (my neighbors), and a powered antenna. I can easily get channels 2,5,7,9 but the channel I really want is 11. All three antenna's have about 50% signal strength no matter what i do (pre amp, line amplifyer, etc) Is there any way (or a better antenna I can try) that can specifically pull in certain channels? the current antenna I am using is the Terk5 but it still wont get more than 50% signal for anything. Please help me out I really would like the rest of the channels. Thank you.




You would think that being close to Mt Wilson would make it easy, wouldn't you???

Unfortunately, there are a bunch of problems being too close to the towers.


First of all, you probably have TOO much signal which is overloading your HDTV.

Powered antenna and Preamps are not helping this situation.

You also might be getting signal leakage into either the coax or even the HDTV.


To check for signal leakage into the HDTV, fabricate a coax "shorting" plug,

attach it to your HDTV's antenna input and make sure that the HDTV is only seeing weak signals.....if at all.

Then reconnect the coax downlead and connect the "shorting" plug onto the antenna end of the cable and see if the coax is leaking.

(You might need an RF Splitter to adapt the connectors).


You can take an old junker coax cable and chop off the last few inches including the connector and simply twist the inner wire to the shield wires.

Or solder a center wire to the outside sleeve on a Type-F coax connector.


Second thing is to try reducing the signal strength going into your HDTV by inserting a R-S 15-678 Variable RF Attenuator and see if tweaking it will help:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 


Next culprit to check is multipath.

You are probably below the narrow beam put out by the transmitters, meaning that strong signals may be bouncing off of further away buildings and into your antenna.


Antenna placement is very critical to reduce multipath, but different stations will be affected differently....so hunt around for the best signal.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html 


A more directional, outdoor antenna will help to minimize multipath, but keep that attenuator in the line.

If you have to use an indoor antenna, you might want to try the highly acclaimed Silver Sensor or Terk HDTVi equivalent which adds Rabbit Ears for VHF.

Note you might need to order something else for free shipping:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/se...0&Go.y=0&Go=Go 


Other antennas to consider for either outdoor or indoor use are the Antennas Direct DB-2, DB-4, the WG PR4400 and CM-4221 (in increasing order of desirability).

These are bigger and uglier, but maybe you can hide them behind a chair or in a closet.


----------



## holl_ands

When you combine two or more antennas pointed in different directions, there are several issues that need to be addressed:


1. Loss in the RF Combiner (RF Splitter in reverse) will reduce sensitivity by 4 dB, if this is an issue for you.

Some people reduce this to 0.2 dB by using the $100 Lindsay Stripline coupler.


2. Signal from antenna in desired direction will be combined with (amplified) multipath signals coming from the other antenna.


If only one channel is in the odd-ball direction, then a $40 JoinTenna can be used to minimize the multipath coupling between antennas.


For more than one channel, highly directional antennas may (or may not) help to reduce multipath.


You can eliminate the above problems by using an RF Switch (manual or R/C) to select between antennas.

R-S makes one with Remote Control capability:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 



Some examples:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST16044 
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST16670


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DaveK913* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Would how close the tree at the back of the house is to the mast have a terribly adverse effect considering the tree rises about 10 feet or so above the height of the mast, and would it help to install a new mast closer to the front of the house about 10 feet further from that tree?



I don't think 10' will make much difference one way or the other. A hundred feet, maybe...


----------



## Naylia

For those inquiring about the Terk HDTVa earlier:


At a distance of 6 miles from the HDTV towers, I recieve hundred percent signal strength on every single channel available to me (16 of them, all UHF) with db measurements in-between 26db and 33db (not sure what exactly that means or what level is normally acceptable for db signal strength, but it was next to signal strength percentage so though there may interest in the info). I don't have any VHF channels to test against.


----------



## mabrandt

I'm hoping someone can help. I have searched this thread, but still don't see a solution. I live approximately 15 miles from my towns transmitters. They are all located on the same antenna farm. I have a CM 4228 in the attic. 3/4 of the time I have great reception. Signal quality = Good on my meter. The other 1/4 of the time I have drop outs and problems with one channel. The quality will drop to below normal, strength will go almost to 0. On the other tuner it says errors and the strength drops. This station is on channel 25. At the same time, I get some quality issues on a station that is on channel 46, not near as bad tho. All my other staions are fine. They are on channels 9, 45, and 21. This can happen at any time of day and in any weather. It effects one tuner more than the other. I assume this is because of a better tuner on the TV over the one in the DVR. The analog staions in the area show no signs of interference when this is happening, but they are all VHF.


Can anyone think of where I can go next?


Thanks!


----------



## TVSaurus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When you combine two or more antennas pointed in different directions, there are several issues that need to be addressed:
> 
> 
> 
> For more than one channel, highly directional antennas may (or may not) help to reduce multipath.



Thanks for the advice. Of course not what I wanted to hear but then again if using multiple antennas were possible more would do and eliminate the need for a rotor which is not an option for me because I record too much on Tivo.


----------



## TVSaurus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Antennasdirect labels the DB8 as a multidirectional antenna but they are wrong. Its beamwidth is about the same as the 4228. If you could figure out a way to mount all 8 bays vertically then it would have a wider horizontal and narrower vertical beamwidth than a CM-4228 but as shown they will be about the same. I can't think of a reason to get the more expensive dB8.



Looking back through some old post.....Has anyone successfully mounted two 4221's vertically to obtain a wider beam?


As you can tell from my previous post I'm trying to figure out a way to receive signals (~6 from each direction) without the use of a rotor. I've successfully picked up New Orleans, Biloxi and Mobile with one 4221 but a couple of the signals are weak.


----------



## enier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVSaurus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice. Of course not what I wanted to hear but then again if using multiple antennas were possible more would do and eliminate the need for a rotor which is not an option for me because I record too much on Tivo.



I'm almost the same situation. I just ordered a UHF antenna to compliment my vhf/uhf antenna. I'm basically going to use it to get the ABC/PBS channels. As I understand it, the existing uhf antenna could interfere with new uhf antenna even though I'm going to use a vhf-uhf combiner. I guess I'll see what happens this weekend. I could probably solve the problem if I put the antenna on the roof instead of the attic but I do not want to do any cold weather roof climbing yet.


----------



## dsims

I set an antenna up at my mothers house about 6 months ago, it was a CM 3671 with a CM lowes spartan preamp. Well my brother somehow lost the indoor power supply to the preamp messing with wires and just hooked it up directly to the box. So now there is no indoor power supply to the preamp and she cannot pick channels up above 13. Can I use a radio shack indoor power supply to the CM mounted preamp and not mess the outdoor preamp up? I just happened to still have the radio shack power supply from a few years ago. Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## Jim5506




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dsims* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I set an antenna up at my mothers house about 6 months ago, it was a CM 3671 with a CM lowes spartan preamp. Well my brother somehow lost the indoor power supply to the preamp messing with wires and just hooked it up directly to the box. So now there is no indoor power supply to the preamp and she cannot pick channels up above 13. Can I use a radio shack indoor power supply to the CM mounted preamp and not mess the outdoor preamp up? I just happened to still have the radio shack power supply from a few years ago. Any help would be appreciated.



The reason she is getting only channels 13 and below is that the preamp passes VHF through regardless and when there is no power to the preamp, it blocks ALL UHF.


If you don't replace it with the right voltage, amperage and polarity power supply, you could blow the preamp and have to totally replace it anyway.


See if Channel master can replace the injector, for a small monitary remuneration, of course.


----------



## hdtvluvr

I've been trying to use a 4228 in the attic and have had limited success. I plan on moving it outdoors. I have a 2 story house and was thinking about getting a 40 ft. telescopic mast and mount it at ground level on the gable end of the house. I would add a clamp at the gable which is approx. 20 ft. high (can't attach it directly at the top of the gable because the mast would divide a window on the second floor).


I can not use guy wires due to the location. Therefore, I was thinking of getting the 40 ft. model and leaving the last section unused except for the 2 ft. or so to mount the antenna. This should provide more strength to the unsupported mast above the roof line / bracket. How much mast can be above the last support bracket? I won't be using a rotor. This should make the top of the antenna about 32 ft. off the ground (12 ft. from the wall bracket).


Should I go with a 50ft. mast and only use a few feet of the last 2 masts? Again about 12 ft. above the wall bracket but with 2 pieces of pipe extending 2 ft. above the 30 and the 30ft ft. section would be 3 separate tubes.


What is the best way to do this? Also, I read here that Lowe's sells 30 ft. masts. Where can one find a 40ft. or 50ft? Are the masts 5 ft. sections or 10 ft. sections.


Thanks


----------



## mtiffee

I use a paperclip.. works great.


----------



## newsposter

channelmaster 3020 VS DB8?
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/3020.htm 


40 miles from towers with neighbors house in way....my channels and signals are:


26 90s (always solid)

32 mid 70s ( always solid )

42 20s (If i only aim for this channel, 60 is best signal then others are bad)

54 50s-60 (very unreliable)

64 low 80s (dips to mid 70s)

67 low 80s (dips to mid 70s)


64 and 67 only came in strong with my DB8 literally touching the inside of my roof ridge in the attic. It's Impossible to go 1 millimeter higher. 6 inches made the difference between unreliable readings (70ish with dropouts to 50s) and I just made that adjustment yesterday.


The 13 ft long CM3020 (locally 100 bucks so returnable) would take up the whole length of my attic but it's in a part i dont care about. Also note it would be about 3-4 feet lower than my DB8 is now to accomodate the 13 ft length because my roof is 'facing the wrong way' if you know what i mean. I'm also hoping the rear vertical portion of the antenna wouldn't make me have to lower it too much more.


so my question is: given the signal problems I've noted above, will the 3020 help me if i keep it inside? Or should I just pay for someone to mount the DB8 on the roof? It seems real fun to put together if it's just in a 5ft box now. Will it help get channel 42 in so it's watchable and will it make the other signals even better?


thank you for your input



edit not sure it matters but 64 is going back to 6vhf in 2009 but i'm not sure i should worry about that now


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Naylia* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For those inquiring about the Terk HDTVa earlier:
> 
> 
> At a distance of 6 miles from the HDTV towers, I recieve hundred percent signal strength on every single channel available to me (16 of them, all UHF) with db measurements in-between 26db and 33db (not sure what exactly that means or what level is normally acceptable for db signal strength, but it was next to signal strength percentage so though there may interest in the info). I don't have any VHF channels to test against.



The dB numbers are probably SNR (Signal-To-Noise Ratio) as determined by the ATSC Decoder.

The minimum SNR for ATSC would be about 15 dB (with infrequent errors).

The maximum SNR will be determined by the granularity of the A/D Converter and other processes in the ATSC Decoder,

which probably won't be much more than your 33 dB number.

The excess above 15 dB is the Fade Margin, or the amount of protection you have against signal fading,

antenna pointing errors (esp in the wind), airplane induced signal flutter, seasonal signal level variations and whatever....


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dsims* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I set an antenna up at my mothers house about 6 months ago, it was a CM 3671 with a CM lowes spartan preamp. Well my brother somehow lost the indoor power supply to the preamp messing with wires and just hooked it up directly to the box. So now there is no indoor power supply to the preamp and she cannot pick channels up above 13. Can I use a radio shack indoor power supply to the CM mounted preamp and not mess the outdoor preamp up? I just happened to still have the radio shack power supply from a few years ago. Any help would be appreciated.



The CM Spartan requires 100ma current draw of +18 VDC (that's 1.8 watts).


If the R-S Power Module puts out anything from about +16 to +20 VDC, it should work just fine.


----------



## dsims

Thank you both for your help!!


----------



## dsims

I looked on the radio shack box and it says 120vac 60hz 3 watt max. Do you think that will be ok?


----------



## fat2020

According to antennaweb, all the DTV channels (all are UHFs) that I need are at 344-345 degree and about 27 miles from my single story home. My neighbor two-story home is in the way. I would like to mount the antenna in my attic. What antenna should I get? Thanks.


----------



## the_bear89451




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fat2020* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> According to antennaweb, all the DTV channels (all are UHFs) that I need are at 344-345 degree and about 27 miles from my single story home. My neighbor two-story home is in the way. I would like to mount the antenna in my attic. What antenna should I get? Thanks.



I think you will need to get your antenna above your neighbor's roof.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dsims* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I looked on the radio shack box and it says 120vac 60hz 3 watt max. Do you think that will be ok?



1.8 watts is less than 3 watts max.


----------



## obeck

Hi All. Here is my situation:


I just got a 37" Syntax LCD with ATSC Input. I live in an apartment in Dunwoody/Atlanta GA, and I am trying to get OTA HD channels. antennaweb says most are 183 degrees south of me, 13 miles away. Unfortunately, that direction puts the rest of the apt. building between me and the HD transmitting stations. Originally, I couldn't get anything on a rabbit ears antenna (not surprising). So, I purchased a Winegard PR4400 antenna, and am able to receive about 15 or 20 digital channels, including all of the networks HD signals (Yeah). The problem: Only one channel... CBS in Atlanta... comes in without interruption. All of the other channels will glitch. Some glitch once every couple of minutes, others every 20 seconds. They all look beautifull... when they are not glitching! There is about 35 feet of cable between the antenna and the receiver. I'd really like to pull in these channels. Will any of these options help? Which one should I try first:


1) a second antenna. Yeah, yeah, I might should have gone with an 8 bay bowtie in the beginning. But the four-bay winegard I purchased *almost does the trick* , so maybe a second combined with this will bring everything in perfectly?


2) a preamp. Preamps don't add what isn't there... would my current situation be helped by a preamp?


3) both.


Thoughts?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> channelmaster 3020 VS DB8?



The DB8 is a far superior UHF antenna. I'd go to the roof and hope for the best.


----------



## Naylia




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The dB numbers are probably SNR (Signal-To-Noise Ratio) as determined by the ATSC Decoder.
> 
> The minimum SNR for ATSC would be about 15 dB (with infrequent errors).
> 
> The maximum SNR will be determined by the granularity of the A/D Converter and other processes in the ATSC Decoder,
> 
> which probably won't be much more than your 33 dB number.
> 
> The excess above 15 dB is the Fade Margin, or the amount of protection you have against signal fading,
> 
> antenna pointing errors (esp in the wind), airplane induced signal flutter, seasonal signal level variations and whatever....



Thanks for the info! Glad to see I have a little padding, but at only 5.9 miles from the antennas I didn't really expect trouble. Now I'm sure I'll be back with more questions why I get around to mounting an antenna on a buddies roof


----------



## fat2020

Quote:

Originally Posted by fat2020

According to antennaweb, all the DTV channels (all are UHFs) that I need are at 344-345 degree and about 27 miles from my single story home. My neighbor two-story home is in the way. I would like to mount the antenna in my attic. What antenna should I get? Thanks.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *the_bear89451* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think you will need to get your antenna above your neighbor's roof.



Thank you for your suggestion. There is a small portion in the front of my house that might have a clear view to the tower. Mounting the antenna in the front of the house might not look good. That's why I will try the attic first. Still what kind of antenna should I get?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hdtvluvr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've been trying to use a 4228 in the attic and have had limited success. I plan on moving it outdoors. I have a 2 story house and was thinking about getting a 40 ft. telescopic mast and mount it at ground level on the gable end of the house. I would add a clamp at the gable which is approx. 20 ft. high (can't attach it directly at the top of the gable because the mast would divide a window on the second floor).
> 
> 
> I can not use guy wires due to the location. Therefore, I was thinking of getting the 40 ft. model and leaving the last section unused except for the 2 ft. or so to mount the antenna. This should provide more strength to the unsupported mast above the roof line / bracket. How much mast can be above the last support bracket? I won't be using a rotor. This should make the top of the antenna about 32 ft. off the ground (12 ft. from the wall bracket).
> 
> 
> Should I go with a 50ft. mast and only use a few feet of the last 2 masts? Again about 12 ft. above the wall bracket but with 2 pieces of pipe extending 2 ft. above the 30 and the 30ft ft. section would be 3 separate tubes.
> 
> 
> What is the best way to do this? Also, I read here that Lowe's sells 30 ft. masts. Where can one find a 40ft. or 50ft? Are the masts 5 ft. sections or 10 ft. sections.
> 
> 
> Thanks



Channel Master recc.'s no more than 15 feet above roofline without guying. This assumes a sturdy ground mount strapped to the house on the way up.

The 4228 is a pretty large wind load, so you might keep it to 10 feet or less.


I installed mine with the mast upside down so the thickest part is at the top.


See http://www.channelmaster.com/pdf/AntInstallGuide.pdf


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fat2020* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Still what kind of antenna should I get?



Analyze this page: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


Bowtie designs work better in attics than yagis.


Unless you have serious blockage issues, almost any antenna listed on that page will work. I'd try the Channel Master 4221, personally.


But there are no guarantees, as there are more factors involved in reception than the average person can guess.


----------



## bt-rtp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fat2020* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> Originally Posted by fat2020
> 
> According to antennaweb, all the DTV channels (all are UHFs) that I need are at 344-345 degree and about 27 miles from my single story home. My neighbor two-story home is in the way. I would like to mount the antenna in my attic. What antenna should I get? Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for your suggestion. There is a small portion in the front of my house that might have a clear view to the tower. Mounting the antenna in the front of the house might not look good. That's why I will try the attic first. Still what kind of antenna should I get?



Hi Fat2020 -- try a Channel Master 4228 first. Mount it inside your attic with a piece of PVC pipe that is attached to the highest peak under the roof where the trussus's meet. Use a quality RG-6 coax cable and be sure to ground it. Use your receiver signal strength meter to align and to the transmitter tower. Tilt it a little as well such as 5 to 10 degrees. If you do not receive the signal well, try a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp. Warren Electronics has all of this stuff in stock.


----------



## rothgar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> First of all, you probably have TOO much signal which is overloading your HDTV.
> 
> Powered antenna and Preamps are not helping this situation.



I thought this might be the case too. But when i tested last night I noticed that 3 of the 5 channels I do get come in ~30% better with the powered antenna over the roof antenna or the rabbit ears.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Then reconnect the coax downlead and connect the "shorting" plug onto the antenna end of the cable and see if the coax is leaking.
> 
> (You might need an RF Splitter to adapt the connectors).



I understood everything you said except this above portion. I just don't follow how I am supposed to hook it up. What indications will show me that the coax is leaking?


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Second thing is to try reducing the signal strength going into your HDTV by inserting a R-S 15-678 Variable RF Attenuator and see if tweaking it will help:



I will try this out this weekend.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you have to use an indoor antenna, you might want to try the highly acclaimed Silver Sensor or Terk HDTVi equivalent which adds Rabbit Ears for VHF.
> 
> Note you might need to order something else for free shipping:



Unfortunatly I have already bought and tried the Terk HDTVi antenna with the same results as everything else.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Other antennas to consider for either outdoor or indoor use are the Antennas Direct DB-2, DB-4, the WG PR4400 and CM-4221 (in increasing order of desirability).
> 
> These are bigger and uglier, but maybe you can hide them behind a chair or in a closet.



I may have to look into these. I do not have the option for a roof antenna because of cost and our roof really doesn't have much that can hold it.

I will try out the things that I understood this weekend and post my results later.

Thank you for your help so far. I hope your suggestions work.


----------



## fat2020




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bt-rtp* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi Fat2020 -- try a Channel Master 4228 first. Mount it inside your attic with a piece of PVC pipe that is attached to the highest peak under the roof where the trussus's meet. Use a quality RG-6 coax cable and be sure to ground it. Use your receiver signal strength meter to align and to the transmitter tower. Tilt it a little as well such as 5 to 10 degrees. If you do not receive the signal well, try a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp. Warren Electronics has all of this stuff in stock.



Thank you - bt-rtp and sregener. I will try 4228. Since the 4228 comes pre-assembled, how do I get it thru the small opening to the attic?


----------



## bt-rtp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fat2020* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thank you - bt-rtp and sregener. I will try 4228. Since the 4228 comes pre-assembled, how do I get it thru the small opening to the attic?



fat2020 -- it will very likely fit through the opening in the ceiling diagonally, assuming it is the standard 24" by 24" size. Also the antenna is very flexible and can be easily disassembled and re-assembled to get it up in the attic. Not a big deal.


----------



## TheRatPatrol




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obeck* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi All. Here is my situation:
> 
> 
> I just got a 37" Syntax LCD with ATSC Input. I live in an apartment in Dunwoody/Atlanta GA, and I am trying to get OTA HD channels. antennaweb says most are 183 degrees south of me, 13 miles away. Unfortunately, that direction puts the rest of the apt. building between me and the HD transmitting stations. Originally, I couldn't get anything on a rabbit ears antenna (not surprising). So, I purchased a Winegard PR4400 antenna, and am able to receive about 15 or 20 digital channels, including all of the networks HD signals (Yeah). The problem: Only one channel... CBS in Atlanta... comes in without interruption. All of the other channels will glitch. Some glitch once every couple of minutes, others every 20 seconds. They all look beautifull... when they are not glitching! There is about 35 feet of cable between the antenna and the receiver. I'd really like to pull in these channels. Will any of these options help? Which one should I try first:
> 
> 
> 1) a second antenna. Yeah, yeah, I might should have gone with an 8 bay bowtie in the beginning. But the four-bay winegard I purchased *almost does the trick* , so maybe a second combined with this will bring everything in perfectly?
> 
> 
> 2) a preamp. Preamps don't add what isn't there... would my current situation be helped by a preamp?
> 
> 
> 3) both.
> 
> 
> Thoughts?



Just curious, where are you mounting this antenna at?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rothgar* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I understood everything you said except the shorting plug leakage test portion. I just don't follow how I am supposed to hook it up. What indications will show me that the coax is leaking?



I show two ways to build a shorting plug and perform leakage tests in the picture below:


1. Type F plug with a center wire soldered to sleeve.

Shown shorting out HDTV/STB/Receiver antenna input.


2. Short piece of junk coax with the shield simply wrapped around the center wire.

Shown shorting out antenna end of coax downlead cable.


The purpose of shorting out the input to the HDTV is to see if the strong TV signals are inadvertently leaking into the tuner.

If they are, a service technician may need to address this problem (highly unlikely, but could happen).

Ideally you shouldn't see any picture, esp for digital channels.

However, it is not a problem if you see some weak, snowy analog stations.

One or more watchable channels indicates excessive leakage.


The purpose of shorting out the downlead coax (as close to the antenna as is feasible)

is to see if there is inadvertent leakage via the coax and associated connections.

This is not all that uncommon a problem within several miles of the transmitter

and is one test that will tell you if you need (double or quad) shielded cable.

The HDTV/STB/Receiver (connected to the other end of the coax) should have same indications as first test.


CAUTION: If you are using a Power Insertion Module to supply power to a Preamp,

unplug the AC power to the Power Insertion Module so that it doesn't send voltage up to the short on the coax.

The Preamp should not be in the segment of coax under test.


PS: If you simply want to buy a test plug, R-S makes (P/N ???) a 75-ohm coax terminator plug that will do the job,

similiar to the fol. inexpensive RCA VH134 found at many home improvement stores:
http://www.summitsource.com/product_...oducts_id=5645 

These are commonly used to "cap-off" unused coax inputs/outputs, such as on SAT Multiswitches and

Distribution Amplifiers to prevent undesirable signals from leaking in (and the desired signal from leaking out).


----------



## obeck




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *theratpatrol* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just curious, where are you mounting this antenna at?





LOL. I'm in a tough spot. Here goes: I am in a first floor apartment of a 3 story building. My windows face the opposite direction from the HD transmission. My best reception is in a closet along a wall that faces the outside. The building faces N/S almost exactly, and my station is at 183/184 degrees.... so my shot is through the building. That said, I was able to watch three stations lastnight with only a handful of dropouts.


I hooked up to analog UHF last night. While there are a couple stations with ghosting, most are ghost-free but still glitch... just like in the digital domain. So I have a mostly signal and very slight ghosting problem? An 8 bay bowtie should help both signal and ghosting. It's kind of beside the point. I really want to purchase a MyHD mdp-130. I have analog cable which *should* have the HD stations in QAM. I just wanted to be sure that I had at least one HD source before getting the mdp-130.


----------



## TheRatPatrol




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *obeck* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> LOL. I'm in a tough spot. Here goes: I am in a first floor apartment of a 3 story building. My windows face the opposite direction from the HD transmission. My best reception is in a closet along a wall that faces the outside. The building faces N/S almost exactly, and my station is at 183/184 degrees.... so my shot is through the building. That said, I was able to watch three stations lastnight with only a handful of dropouts.
> 
> 
> I hooked up to analog UHF last night. While there are a couple stations with ghosting, most are ghost-free but still glitch... just like in the digital domain. So I have a mostly signal and very slight ghosting problem? An 8 bay bowtie should help both signal and ghosting. It's kind of beside the point. I really want to purchase a MyHD mdp-130. I have analog cable which *should* have the HD stations in QAM. I just wanted to be sure that I had at least one HD source before getting the mdp-130.



You know, for people who live in apartments and condos, it would be nice if the owners of these apartment buildings would (or allow renters to) put up antennas on their buildings so everyone would have access to local OTA tv signals. You shouldn't have to put an antenna in your closet.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *theratpatrol* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You know, for people who live in apartments and condos, it would be nice if the owners of these apartment buildings would (or allow renters to) put up antennas on their buildings so everyone would have access to local OTA tv signals. You shouldn't have to put an antenna in your closet.



Most buildings have only one signal distribution system, with distribution amplifiers

and multiple output splitters ensuring that every unit gets a reasonable signal.


The owner(s) can decide to pump OTA, CATV or DVB down that existing system.

If you don't like their choice, you'll be looking at trying to get them to either:


1. Change signal sources to OTA (you'll never get your neighbors to give up CATV/DVB).


2. Agree to pay for installion of a second signal distribution system throughout the entire complex (HA!!!!)


3. Pay for your own roof-mounted antenna and coax run to your unit

Could happen, but then several of your neighbors would want to also do the same thing

and over time the roof would look like it was in the '60's.

So rather than let the camel's nose into the tent, you're stuck with an indoor OTA antenna,

or if you're lucky, a DBS dish pointed out a window or on your balcony.


----------



## golferadam

What is my best chance for getting OTA HD if I live on the 2nd floor of a 6-floor building in downtown State College, Pennsylvania (which has lots of mountains around)? The nearest tower (ABC) is about 30 miles away. I have no options for an outdoor antenna. I am restricted to an indoor antenna. Do I have any chance?


----------



## Rammitinski

I haven't checked out this thread in a while, but after going through the last few pages I've noticed that there have been quite a few people asking about which were the better indoor, set-top type antennas. From my own experiences and others around here in general, along with the Silver Sensor, probably the best results have come from the Radio Shack 15-1880 (which has VHF rabbit ears - it has been discontinued but can still be found in some stores), and also the Radio Shack $15.00 double bowtie (I forget the model no. offhand, but there's only one). Stay away from all those Walmart type RCA's and Philip's - they don't work at all for most people. And that includes the newer, encased Philips Silver Sensor - they're all pretty much junk. Many people have also improved their results with the RS 15-1880 by turning the bowties horizontal rather than vertical.


----------



## etcarroll




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *etcarroll* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the pics, that's what I have. I assume its performance should be equal to the 3075, so I'm going to reinstall it and see what becomes of the signal of my worst, (PBS), channel.



Well, reinstalled the balun that came with my CM4228, and A VAST IMPROVEMENT in signal.










My PBS station went from unwatchable at a signal strength of 14.5 to 16.5 db, ave of 15.3db, to a steady range of 85 to 90db. No other changes other than swapping baluns.


I found the Phillips balun had some rust in it, even with the weather boot, so I wrapped it all in electrical tape after pulling boot over the CM balun/RG6 cable connection as tight as I could.


----------



## TVSaurus

I've concluded that my HD signal is much worse through my D* HR10-250 than directly to my hp 5880n HD DLP set.


I'm using a CM 4221 antenna with a RS amp then to a two splitter. After that one line goest to my HR10 and the other directly to my TV. Watching the same channel on the Tivo is impossible b/c of signal loss versus' the same channel on the antenna input on the TV. Is this possible? What could I do to fix the Tivo side?


----------



## davefre99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVSaurus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've concluded that my HD signal is much worse through my D* HR10-250 than directly to my hp 5880n HD DLP set.
> 
> 
> I'm using a CM 4221 antenna with a RS amp then to a two splitter. After that one line goest to my HR10 and the other directly to my TV. Watching the same channel on the Tivo is impossible b/c of signal loss versus' the same channel on the antenna input on the TV. Is this possible? What could I do to fix the Tivo side?



Couple of things come to mind. First are the cable lengths to each about the same overall length? If so try reversing the leads at the splitter. You might also try eliminating the splitter all together and hooking the cable directly to the HR10-250 just to test if its a cable loss problem. Also is the RS amp a preamp of just a line amp. Many line amps actualy cause more problems do to high signal to noise figures. Some tunners are more sensative to overdrive than others. The tuner in the TV is most likely a newer generation tuner that handles weak singals or multipath better too.


----------



## TVSaurus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *davefre99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Couple of things come to mind. First are the cable lengths to each about the same overall length? If so try reversing the leads at the splitter. You might also try eliminating the splitter all together and hooking the cable directly to the HR10-250 just to test if its a cable loss problem. Also is the RS amp a preamp of just a line amp. Many line amps actualy cause more problems do to high signal to noise figures. Some tunners are more sensative to overdrive than others. The tuner in the TV is most likely a newer generation tuner that handles weak singals or multipath better too.



Antenna to signal amplifier is 50' of RG6 then to splitter. Equal lengths (~3') to both HR10 and TV using same RG6 cable from splitter.


I have gone directly to the HR10 from the indoor amp unit and got the same results.


I'm using the Radio Shack signal amplifier 15-2507


----------



## davefre99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVSaurus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Antenna to signal amplifier is 50' of RG6 then to splitter. Equal lengths (~3') to both HR10 and TV using same RG6 cable from splitter.
> 
> 
> I have gone directly to the HR10 from the indoor amp unit and got the same results.
> 
> 
> I'm using the Radio Shack signal amplifier 15-2507



Have you tried eliminating the amp all together. My guess is that ratshack amp is doing you more harm than good. If you need to boost your signal because its too week then especialy with digital signals you need to do it at the antenna with a good quality pre-amp. The 4221 antenna is a fairly good moderate to fringe antenna and you should not need a booster amp for one 2 way splitter unless you are using either a long cable from the antenna which you said is only 50ft long or you are using poor grade cable. Most recommend good quad shielded RG-6 coax.

I dont see any mention as to how far you are from your signals nor whether you are using an outdoor installation or an attic installation. Attic mounting is not recomended for fringe reception areas.


----------



## TVSaurus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *davefre99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Have you tried eliminating the amp all together. My guess is that ratshack amp is doing you more harm than good. If you need to boost your signal because its too week then especialy with digital signals you need to do it at the antenna with a good quality pre-amp. The 4221 antenna is a fairly good moderate to fringe antenna and you should not need a booster amp for one 2 way splitter unless you are using either a long cable from the antenna which you said is only 50ft long or you are using poor grade cable. Most recommend good quad shielded RG-6 coax.
> 
> I dont see any mention as to how far you are from your signals nor whether you are using an outdoor installation or an attic installation. Attic mounting is not recomended for fringe reception areas.



Was attic mount until yesterday when I put it up on a 25' mast outside. I haven't eliminated the RS amp but can tomorrow and see what happens. The channel I'm having the most problem with is 58 miles away in New Orleans. I'm on the Gulf Coast and its pretty free of obstructions since it's over water mainly. But, remember, I get the channel fine directly to the TV its just a problem going through the Tivo receiver.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVSaurus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've concluded that my HD signal is much worse through my D* HR10-250 than directly to my hp 5880n HD DLP set.
> 
> 
> I'm using a CM 4221 antenna with a RS amp then to a two splitter. After that one line goest to my HR10 and the other directly to my TV. Watching the same channel on the Tivo is impossible b/c of signal loss versus' the same channel on the antenna input on the TV. Is this possible? What could I do to fix the Tivo side?



could be a bad tuner. I tried just this thing recently. I couldn't get in 2 'bad' stations with either HDtivo or my hitachi. but could get the same ones on both machines.


So if your HDtivo is much worse, even using the same exact cable, then it's probably the hdtivo.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVSaurus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Watching the same channel on the Tivo is impossible b/c of signal loss versus' the same channel on the antenna input on the TV. Is this possible? What could I do to fix the Tivo side?



The HDTivo has a lot of problems with "hot" signals - it overloads more readily than other tuners. Since the station you're after is probably weak, that means the HDTivo is being overloaded by other signals. You could try a Channel Master Jointenna for channel 58 - it would mean switching wires (I use a TV/Game swith in my setup) for everything else, but it might work.


I'd try removing the amplifier first. Radio Shack amps aren't doing you any favors.


----------



## KB9KXH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AcuraCL* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think I know the answer but I'll just put the question out there ....
> 
> 
> what is the best solution to a bad multipath problem?
> 
> 
> (Terrain: hilly, forest nearby, townhouses; antenna: SilverSensor; preamp: channelmaster 7777; tuner: Dish 811)



a directional antenna or a circular polarized directional antenna would even be better.


----------



## TVSaurus

Some of you have assisted me in my latest problem with trying to figure out why my D*HR10 seems to receive a weak signal while a direct connection from my antenna gives me a better signal in post #3800 above.


Now here is my real underlying problem....trying to pickup numerous stations from 131 degrees apart. I believe that if I can solve this then maybe I won't notice the poor quality signal from the Tivo unit.


Current setup:

Local zip: 39560 with low terrain and many pine trees

New Orleans zip: 70458 for me line of sight is mainly over water and good.
CM 4221 I went with this because of reports that the 4228 had a narrower field.

Outside mount on a 25' mast
Radio Shack 15-2507 I have the outside amp mounted 12" below 4221 and of course the inside amp installed just before a two-way splitter.

RG6 cable all the way. Equal lengths (~3') from splitter to HR10 and TV and only 12" from inside amp to splitter. Removing the splitter makes no difference in signal quality.


Looking at the attached image you'll see that I currently have the antenna pointed at about 290 degrees. In this position I can pickup all the channels from both directions (all of UHF) however I get signal drop pretty frequently that makes it impossible to watch at times. If I turn the attenna to the direction I need I get perfect signals (85%+) versus the 55-60% I get in the "half-way" point from both directions.


There are 4 signals from New Orleans (with more on the way) and three from the local area. I could just aim for New Orleans and leave it but then I lose my local station which I need for local news and weather. If I aim only for local area then I only get ABC, PBS, and a poor FOX affliate that I could care less about.


What would you recommend for my situation? Is there another antenna that I could try to use that would accomplish getting all the available signals from this wide range? Or do aim for New Orleans where the majority of the signals are (or will be) and then use something else to aim for my one local station that I need?


Thank you.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVSaurus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What would you recommend for my situation? Is there another antenna that I could try to use that would accomplish getting all the available signals from this wide range? Or do aim for New Orleans where the majority of the signals are (or will be) and then use something else to aim for my one local station that I need?



It sounds like you have one local signal you want, and the rest are distant and in the same direction. No good antenna is going to cover 130 degrees, so you're either looking at a rotor or a combination of antennas.


Channel Master makes a product called a Jointenna that would be perfect for your situation. They have one channel-specific input (get it for the channel you want) and another, "everything else" input. Then get a second antenna to aim at the local station (brand and type are unimportant as long as they receive the station you want.) Hook it all up and you're done.


Now, if you want to get even fancier, you could run a second line of coax down to your "head end" and insert the local channel (using the Jointenna) *after* the amplifer's indoor unit does its thing. Then you don't boost the local signal too high, but get the amplification of the more distant signals. Or, if you want a true A/B solution, Radio Shack makes a remote-controlled switch ( http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search ) that would let you select between the two coaxial inputs. The A/B solution would be great if you wanted more than one station from your local market, even if it isn't perfect for recording.


----------



## TVSaurus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener*  /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It sounds like you have one local signal you want, and the rest are distant and in the same direction. No good antenna is going to cover 130 degrees, so you're either looking at a rotor or a combination of antennas.
> 
> 
> Channel Master makes a product called a Jointenna that would be perfect for your situation.



Rotor is out. I record too much on various channels.


So if I go with the jointenna I'll need another antenna. Would I be better off getting the longer range CM 4228 and point towards New Orleans since it is further and I know the 4221 will pick it up. Then use my existing 4221 with a jointenna and point towards my local stations which are less than 30 miles away. Heck the 4221 has a better signal to my local ABC laying flat on the ground than it does in the air! Weird.


Also, do I pick the jointenna that is specific for the HD frequency? WLOX is channel 13 but has a HD frequency of 39 which is 13-1. That would be a 0585-2 from CM which covers UHF 30-49.


----------



## Rammitinski

Speaking of multiple directions, does anyone have any first hand experience with the Sylvania "Smart Antenna"? At various distances, perhaps? It is a promising concept, but there is very little to be found on the net about it in the way of reviews.


----------



## DesmoBob

I'm looking into UHF/VHF antennas for OTA HD, and according to antennaweb, for my particular location, I'll need a medium *outdoor* rooftop directional antenna. However, these things are banned by our neighborhood association.


Therefore I'm wondering about the feasibility of putting such an antenna in my attic crawlspace (this is a 2-story house, BTW). WILL THIS WORK?







I'm quite handy with tools, so I'm confident I can get the actual work done... but I'm clueless about TV reception. Do these outdoor antennas need free open air? Or will it still receive signals through the roof joists? (Note: we don't have thermal insulation.) I do realize that I'll have to remove/shorten the mast.


----------



## Colm

No experience with it. Electronically directable antennas have been around for a long time. This is the first one I know of for consumer TV use that uses a microprocessor to make the decisions on how to tune it. One downside is that you have to use a STB that is designed to work with such antennas. The STB decides whether the signal is as good as it can get and sends commands to the smart antenna to optimize it if not. The other downside is that this particular one is an indoor antenna AFAIK.


----------



## holl_ands

The DX DTA-5000 Smart Antenna is intended for outdoor use.

It is an evolution of the earlier models intended for RV and boat use.


Here is my definitive review, where it was about as effective as a 4-Bay antenna:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...TE#post5979741 


Note that I found that the Dolby Digital (Optical/Coax) output on the Sylvania 6900DTE OTA STB

was somehow incompatible with my Sony STR-DE835 Surround Receiver.

It works okay with my new Pioneer Receiver after they "fixed" it.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DesmoBob* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1) However, these things are banned by our neighborhood association.
> 
> 
> 2) Therefore I'm wondering about the feasibility of putting such an antenna in my attic crawlspace (this is a 2-story house, BTW). WILL THIS WORK?



1. Unless you live in a historical area, that ban is illegal, unenforcable, and a violation of your constitutional rights as interpretted by the courts and the FCC. See here: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html 


2. Maybe. Attics are not good, costing you an average of 88% of the signal you'd get if you didn't have a roof in the way. However, in strong signal areas, or if your roof is more "transparent" to radio signals than most, it might work just fine.


Rather than ruffle feathers, I'd buy an antenna you can fit in your attic and try it. But if it doesn't work, print out a copy of that web page and show it to anyone who complains about your shiny new rooftop antenna.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DesmoBob* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm looking into UHF/VHF antennas for OTA HD, and according to antennaweb, for my particular location, I'll need a medium *outdoor* rooftop directional antenna. However, these things are banned by our neighborhood association.
> 
> 
> Therefore I'm wondering about the feasibility of putting such an antenna in my attic crawlspace (this is a 2-story house, BTW). WILL THIS WORK?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm quite handy with tools, so I'm confident I can get the actual work done... but I'm clueless about TV reception. Do these outdoor antennas need free open air? Or will it still receive signals through the roof joists? (Note: we don't have thermal insulation.) I do realize that I'll have to remove/shorten the mast.



Many people hide their antennas in the attic, since the higher you go the better the signal.

At various locations in the U.S., attic loss has been measured at about 13 dB +/- 7 dB,

so it's significant and varies a lot with location within the attic.

Hawaii is no doubt at the bottom of this scale.

You also get more multipath problems in the attic than roof-mounted.


Only way to know if it will work at your location is to do a trial run...


=========================================

BTW: There are legal guidelines for what a homeowner assoc can and can not do to restrict outdoor antenna placement.

You can erect a (short) ugly antenna as long as it is on property that either you own or you control access to (balcony, patio) for condos and apts:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html 


IT'S THE LAW...


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You can erect a (short) ugly antenna as long as it is on property that either you own or you control access to (balcony, patio) for condos and apts:
> http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html
> 
> 
> IT'S THE LAW...



There is no restriction on the size of the antenna you can install for terrestrial reception such as from OTA television broadcasts. Generally speaking, though, you should keep it within 12' of the peak of your roof.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVSaurus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Now here is my real underlying problem....trying to pickup numerous stations from 131 degrees apart. I believe that if I can solve this then maybe I won't notice the poor quality signal from the Tivo unit.
> 
> 
> There are 4 signals from New Orleans (with more on the way) and three from the local area. I could just aim for New Orleans and leave it but then I lose my local station which I need for local news and weather. If I aim only for local area then I only get ABC, PBS, and a poor FOX affliate that I could care less about.
> 
> 
> What would you recommend for my situation?



I'd try an all channel antenna such as a Chanel Master 3019 aimed at New Orleans and reaim your existing antenna at WXXV-DT, WLOX-DT and WMAH-DT. Next I'd buy three jointennas tuned to channels 16, 39, and 48 plus a three way splitter. Split the local stations to three jointennas (Two if you don't really care about FOX, WXXV-DT) and add those signals to the New Orleans antenna. If you need a preamp for New Orleans, put it before the jointennas. No rotator needed!


Jointennas cost $29.35 at: http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm 


Note that the all channel antenna is needed to get WYES-DT on channel 11. If you don't want WYES, two UHF antennas would work. This is designed to receive the three local digital stations plus most of the New Orleans digital and analog signals.


----------



## TVSaurus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'd try an all channel antenna such as a Chanel Master 3019 aimed at New Orleans and reaim your existing antenna at WXXV-DT, WLOX-DT and WMAH-DT. Next I'd buy three jointennas tuned to channels 16, 39, and 48 plus a three way splitter. Split the local stations to three jointennas (Two if you don't really care about FOX, WXXV-DT) and add those signals to the New Orleans antenna. If you need a preamp for New Orleans, put it before the jointennas. No rotator needed!
> 
> 
> Jointennas cost $29.35 at: http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm
> 
> 
> Note that the all channel antenna is needed to get WYES-DT on channel 11. If you don't want WYES, two UHF antennas would work. This is designed to receive the three local digital stations plus most of the New Orleans digital and analog signals.



Thanks for the input. WYES is not important so I wouldn't need the 3019 so I would probably go for the 4228 instead for distance just in case. I understand most of what you said except for "and add those signals to the New Orleans antenna. " How do I "add" these?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVSaurus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the input. WYES is not important so I wouldn't need the 3019 so I would probably go for the 4228 instead for distance just in case. I understand most of what you said except for "and add those signals to the New Orleans antenna. " How do I "add" these?



Here's a picture of two Jointennas posted by "TotallyPreWired" several days ago. In your case the 4 and 9 antennas would be your 4221 and a splitter. The all channel antenna would be the New Orleans 4228. I'd put your preamp on the 4228 before the Jointennas. I have my Jointenna in the attic, out of the weather.











You could put up the 4228 and try to add the two antennas together in a splitter used backwards before you buy the Jointennas.


----------



## TVSaurus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here's a picture of two Jointennas posted by "TotallyPreWired" several days ago. In your case the 4 and 9 antennas would be your 4221 and a splitter. The all channel antenna would be the New Orleans 4228. I'd put your preamp on the 4228 before the Jointennas. I have my Jointenna in the attic, out of the weather.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You could put up the 4228 and try to add the two antennas together in a splitter used backwards before you buy the Jointennas.



Gotcha. I might just try the reversed splitter first and see what happens since it is a 2 week wait for a jointenna right now according to Warren Elect.


Just a good quality splitter will do?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVSaurus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Gotcha. I might just try the reversed splitter first and see what happens since it is a 2 week wait for a jointenna right now according to Warren Elect.
> 
> 
> Just a good quality splitter will do?



Yes. A splitter used this way will have some loss, but it's worth a try. You may not need the preamp because of the extra gain of the 4228, or the preamp can go after the splitter (adder).


If you put the preamp on the 4228 before the splitter, it may amplify the multipath on your local channels because the 4228 is aimed away from your locals. The function of the jointenna is to eliminate that multipath because it will filter out the local channels from the New Orleans antenna.


----------



## Rack




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There is no restriction on the size of the antenna you can install for terrestrial reception such as from OTA television broadcasts. Generally speaking, though, you should keep it within 12' of the peak of your roof.



Yep, no size restriction. You could even put this up:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/del937.htm


----------



## holl_ands

There is an antenna size restriction, but it seems to only apply to satellite dish size:


"The rule applies to video antennas including direct-to-home satellite dishes

that are less than one meter (39.37") in diameter (or of any size in Alaska),

TV antennas, and wireless cable antennas."


So it does not seem to apply to C-Band BUD (Big Useful Dish).


=======================================

While we are on the subject, can someone explain what the fol quote from the FCC OTARD website

(see above) is supposed to mean:


"Q: I want a conventional "stick" antenna to receive a distant over-the air television signal. Does the rule apply to me?

A: No. The rule does not apply to television antennas used to receive a distant signal."


Seems to say that the FCC rule does not apply to tall (how tall??) antenna stalks used for DISTANT signals.

(I think the key word here is DISTANT, cuz TV signals are presumably only intended for local DMA.)


So if I were a Condo owner, could I install a concrete based, free standing,

50-foot roll-up tower in my enclosed patio/garden area???


======================================

PS: The OTARD allows antennas taller than 12-feet above roof-line,

although it allows a homeowner assoc to have a permitting process

to ensure that it is installed safely....and they must make a good faith effort to approve that permit.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> While we are on the subject, can someone explain what the fol quote from the FCC OTARD website
> 
> (see above) is supposed to mean:
> 
> 
> "Q: I want a conventional "stick" antenna to receive a distant over-the air television signal. Does the rule apply to me?
> 
> A: No. The rule does not apply to television antennas used to receive a distant signal."
> 
> 
> Seems to say that the FCC rule does not apply to tall (how tall??) antenna stalks used for DISTANT signals.
> 
> (I think the key word here is DISTANT, cuz TV signals are presumably only intended for local DMA.)



What a can-o-worms.

#1 How does anybody but the user know if it's being used for 'distant' signals? All, but 1 receivable station(repeater at that), is 50+ miles distant to me.

#2 If 'distant' signals are bad, how can they base their 'Significantly Viewed' ruling on those very same 'distant' signals?


If I were restricted to my DMA for OTA, I'd have 1 analog channel to view(and a whole lot of noise - But, a very good selection of that!).



> Quote:
> So if I were a Condo owner, could I install a concrete based, free standing,
> 
> 50-foot roll-up tower in my enclosed patio/garden area???



As long as no one can claim the space above that patio(think 2nd floor condo), and they can't prove that you are watching a station based in Hong Kong, I don't see why not!









....jc


----------



## newsposter

Do you have a UPS on your amp/preamp? I was just thinking about this today because someone is coming out within a week to move the DB8 up on the roof since the attic has too much signal blocked for reliable channels on 2 of 6 that I want.


Then I got to thinking, If the power goes out, all my electronics except for the antenna are on a ups! So if i'm recording OTA, i'm SOL. I may even have to buy a smaller ups and stick it in the attic...but then again, are they meant for unheated attics? I doubt it. This poses a problem for me now because I dont know how things will be wired after the install.


Therefore, I was going to just have him do a barrel connection where the antenna drops to the ground because in the future I'll be very likely drilling thru my crawlspace (or wire somehow thru my attic) instead of putting the wire around the entire house outside/in breezeway (where no ups is now anyways). But a real pain to do that in winter. (long story)


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do you have a UPS on your amp/preamp?



Nope. Computer stuff only.


> Quote:
> Then I got to thinking, If the power goes out, all my electronics except for the antenna are on a ups! So if i'm recording OTA, i'm SOL. I may even have to buy a smaller ups and stick it in the attic...but then again, are they meant for unheated attics? I doubt it. This poses a problem for me now because I dont know how things will be wired after the install.



Where is your power 'injector' for the preamp? Usually it's quite some distance from the antenna, inside the house. Since mine is in the 'computer room', I could easily put it on my UPS. But, I don't have my widescreen on one, so it's not an issue for me!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> "Q: I want a conventional "stick" antenna to receive a distant over-the air television signal. Does the rule apply to me?
> 
> A: No. The rule does not apply to television antennas used to receive a distant signal."
> 
> 
> So if I were a Condo owner, could I install a concrete based, free standing,
> 
> 50-foot roll-up tower in my enclosed patio/garden area???



The rule states that you can only install an antenna large enough to receive your local market stations. The theory goes that you have a constitutional right to watch NBC, but not the constitutional right to pick which affiliate you watch. Now, there is nothing in the rules that say you can't use your antenna for distant signals, only that any justification of the size of the antenna must be for local signals only. So, unless you go to your HOA and say, "I need a bigger antenna so I can watch station XXXX in the next market over," you can pretty much do what you want.


Your condo roofline (indoor, if you're not on the top level) defines your space. You can't exceed that because you are then in a common area.


As for the significantly viewed rule, I'm baffled about it myself. My county (Olmsted, MN) lists a station as significantly viewed - KTTC. But that station is actually *in market* so who cares? Stations I can receive with my antenna but are out of market are not considered significantly viewed. so satellite can't offer them to me. But cable offers some of them (with blackouts of national programming.) Somebody explain that to me.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I may even have to buy a smaller ups and stick it in the attic...but then again, are they meant for unheated attics? I doubt it.



Spot checking an APC for operating temps, it is only designed for 32-104F. That would be trouble for both winter and summer in an attic.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Spot checking an APC for operating temps, it is only designed for 32-104F. That would be trouble for both winter and summer in an attic.



shucks...summer no biggie..attic fan turns on when i adjust the temp down and i could dea....but winter is colder than 32



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Nope. Computer stuff only.
> 
> 
> Where is your power 'injector' for the preamp? Usually it's quite some distance from the antenna, inside the house. Since mine is in the 'computer room', I could easily put it on my UPS. But, I don't have my widescreen on one, so it's not an issue for me!



it's just a leviton amp...sitting in the attic now right under the antenna..and with tivo on UPS, i can get hours of recording w/o the tv on.


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> As for the significantly viewed rule, I'm baffled about it myself. My county (Olmsted, MN) lists a station as significantly viewed - KTTC. But that station is actually *in market* so who cares? Stations I can receive with my antenna but are out of market are not considered significantly viewed. so satellite can't offer them to me. But cable offers some of them (with blackouts of national programming.) Somebody explain that to me.



sregener,

Significantly viewed is a Nielsen term. It deals with what stations are most watched by the Nielsen families, typically when there are two or more choices for a network on a cable system. Trinity county, a county that no Houston station can reach OTA, was switched to the Houston DMA (Designated Market Area) by Nielsen because the Houston stations were more significantly viewed than the TV stations in the market that they were formerly attached to. The FCC often uses Nielsen's DMAs for rule making that involves consumers.


Bob Chase


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> sregener,
> 
> Significantly viewed is a Nielsen term. It deals with what stations are most watched by the Nielsen families, typically when there are two or more choices for a network on a cable system. Trinity county, a county that no Houston station can reach OTA, was switched to the Houston DMA (Designated Market Area) by Nielsen because the Houston stations were more significantly viewed than the TV stations in the market that they were formerly attached to. The FCC often uses Nielsen's DMAs for rule making that involves consumers.



While Niesen may gather the statistics, I was talking about SHREVA's definition:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *From SHREVA* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Under our rules in effect on April 15, 1976, network affiliates demonstrate significantly viewed status by showing they have at least three percent share of viewing hours in television homes in the community and a net weekly circulation share of at least 25 percent; independent stations must show at least two percent viewing hours and a net weekly circulation of at least five percent.



It is this definition that allows Cable companies & Satellite providers to supply out of DMA stations to a DMA. I stand to receive 3 additional stations when D* implements SV. They are all Denver stations, and I live in the Colorado Springs DMA.

....jc


----------



## rothgar

I am currently using a Samsung SIR-T451 to receive OTA channels. But I still have no luck with channel 11 and the box has very limited adjustments that can be made. Do you think that if i got a different set top box or even a hd capture card that my probrlem may be fixed with certain channels. I imagine that other boxes offer more options or maybe even have better processors for OTA signal. Please let me know if I should buy something else to try out and what you would recommend. I have been looking at the FusionHDTV5 gold card.


----------



## rdwalt

Rothgar, I can't offer much advice but I'm so glad to see that someone else is having problems with this receiver and channel 11. Where I'm at, Kennesaw, GA (30152) channel 11 is the only VHF channel. I only have a CM 4221 but every other channel comes in strong. I'm almost convenced that it's the receiver that's the problem. I can get channel 11 at times at 100% and then like clock-work at around 9:30pm the singal drops completely off. I typically turn the receiver on at 8:00pm. I've posted about this issue on here several times but no one ever responds. If been tempted to contact Samsung but have a feeling they are not going to be very cooperative.


----------



## Dishiki

I'm in Albany, NY, purchasing my first Plasma, and need to get an antenna for my local HDs. I will be using a Directv HD-DVR receiver, not sure which one yet. According to Antennaweb, I am 11.2 miles from all of my signals, and all of them are at 274 except one which is at 271. Two of the channels are VHF, the rest UHF. I was planning on putting the antenna in my attic. (I am renting a house). It's a two story house. The attic is a full 3rd story with nine foot ceilings. The house faces west. In the attic, there is a window that faces west (the front of the house). That give me a clear line of sight to the signals.


What antenna should I get? Do certain ones only do UHF or do they all do both? Since I have a window am I going to experience signal loss, or should I be okay? The Directv guy is coming next week, should I just try to mount the antenna when he does the dish and run the coax with that? The channel that is at 271 is 11.2 miles away, the others at 274 ar 11.1. Will I be okay or will there be some loss? Also, where can I get a signal strentgh meter, Rat Shack? This forum is great and I appreciate all the responses.


----------



## rothgar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rdwalt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Rothgar, I can't offer much advice but I'm so glad to see that someone else is having problems with this receiver and channel 11. Where I'm at, Kennesaw, GA (30152) channel 11 is the only VHF channel. I only have a CM 4221 but every other channel comes in strong. I'm almost convenced that it's the receiver that's the problem. I can get channel 11 at times at 100% and then like clock-work at around 9:30pm the singal drops completely off. I typically turn the receiver on at 8:00pm. I've posted about this issue on here several times but no one ever responds. If been tempted to contact Samsung but have a feeling they are not going to be very cooperative.



I know it is not everywhere. At the house I used to live (covina, ca) channel 11 was crystal clear. Heck every channel I could think of came in great with not a problem. because you cannot mannually add channels I found myself scanning channels in covina and then bringing the box to my new place in Arcadia, ca. This at least allowed me to check signal on channel 11. I have never been able to receive it OTA in arcadia though.


I think I am going to go ahead and try out the FusionHDTV5 gold lite card and hope that all my sorrows will go away. I need to get this to work before Sunday though because 24 comes back on. Wish me luck and I will post back with my results.


----------



## rgathright

Due to Katrina I have two places to live at now with my HDTV's at one and analog at the other (this one I just get to visit, but it is our new home). I have a VHF/UHF combo antenna and a CM 4228 in the attic for my local stations. Channels 4 & 6 are getting a lot of interference from something. Channel 4 is the worse and sometimes it is unwatchable and then it will clear up for no reason that I can find. I have checked the RF cables to make sure they are not touching any of the electrical wiring. It goes diagonal and from very fast to not moving at all.


Now this morning # 4 was OK, until I turned on the kitchen light. This caused some interference, but it was not the same as the other. I have 2 TV/s connected to my antenna and both of them is affected. One of them has a amp, but the other one does not.


Any ideas????


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dishiki* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm in Albany, NY, purchasing my first Plasma, and need to get an antenna for my local HDs. I will be using a Directv HD-DVR receiver, not sure which one yet. .



at this moment there is only the HDtivo. Next quarter is supposed to be HD DVR...we shall see


----------



## mdfuller

Gang,


Can I use the amp that came with the Squareshooter (SS-2000) with the Channelmaster 4221? If I need a different one I have no problem buying one, but I would hate to be buying the same thing. Thanks!


----------



## bt-rtp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mdfuller* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Gang,
> 
> 
> Can I use the amp that came with the Squareshooter (SS-2000) with the Channelmaster 4221? If I need a different one I have no problem buying one, but I would hate to be buying the same thing. Thanks!




That is a bad idea because it will amplify undesirable RF noise with the desired RF signals. This will result in a poor S/N ratio to the receiver and the tuner will struggle.


You need to use a pre-amp mounted near the 4221 antenna to reduce the potential RF noise from being amplified. It is just the right way to do it.


----------



## mdfuller

Cool - I will order a CM 7777 from a site sponsor then.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rgathright* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Due to Katrina I have two places to live at now with my HDTV's at one and analog at the other (this one I just get to visit, but it is our new home). I have a VHF/UHF combo antenna and a CM 4228 in the attic for my local stations. Channels 4 & 6 are getting a lot of interference from something. Channel 4 is the worse and sometimes it is unwatchable and then it will clear up for no reason that I can find. I have checked the RF cables to make sure they are not touching any of the electrical wiring. It goes diagonal and from very fast to not moving at all.
> 
> 
> Now this morning # 4 was OK, until I turned on the kitchen light. This caused some interference, but it was not the same as the other. I have 2 TV/s connected to my antenna and both of them is affected. One of them has a amp, but the other one does not.
> 
> 
> Any ideas????



Wow, it looks like you survived a direct hit!


Diagonal lines indicate interference. It's hard to diagnose without being there. One insidious problem that I have seen is a preamp that is oscillating. The oscillation is coupled from one antenna to another and may even bother the neighbors TV. The only way to be sure, is to watch one TV while you unplug the power supply for the preamp from the AC wall socket.


Other tips on locating interference can be found in an old book issued by the FCC. It can still be found at:
http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interference/tvibook.html


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mdfuller* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can I use the amp that came with the Squareshooter (SS-2000) with the Channelmaster 4221? If I need a different one I have no problem buying one, but I would hate to be buying the same thing. Thanks!



No. The amplifier in the SquareShooter is actually in two parts, and one is built into the antenna itself. The indoor unit alone won't do you any good.


As others have suggested, a Channel Master 7777 is a good choice, provided you actually need an amplifier (most people don't!)


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mdfuller* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Cool - I will order a CM 7777 from a site sponsor then.



The two most important things about a quality pre-amp are that it is low noise and that it has the right gain (low quality pre-amps can do nasty things like oscillate). Channelmaster's 7777 is a very good (low noise) high gain amp. For medium or low gain pre-amps Weingard has some good choices. Your total signal level from all nearby stations determines how much gain is best: Many strong (or one very strong) stations means no pre-amp, a couple of medium strong stations means less gain (10-20dB). No nearby stations means high gain (30dB) can be used. Nearby FM stations need to be included but the amps have FM traps that can help prevent them from being overloaded by radio stations. Note that once you use enough gain to overcome the lead in loss and make the receiver's noise neglegible any more gain will have no positive effect. This is often true with about 20dB of gain.

So my rough guess at pre-amp suggestions would be:


Urban:

No pre-amp


Suburban:

Weingard HDP-269 (combined UHF/VHF) or No pre-amp


Far Suburban:

Weingard AP-8700 (combined UHF/VHF)

or Weingard AP-2870 (separate UHF/VHF)

or Weingard AP-4700 (UHF only) (VHF pass through)


Rural:

Channelmaster CM-7777 (combined or separate UHF/VHF)


Note that you should only need a pre-amp if you are trying to get distant stations


----------



## markbean

Will an attic mount provide better reception than an indoor?


I setup a Terk HDTVi indoor antenna yesterday and am able to receive every digital channel than I'm interested in (channels listed on antennaweb_dot_org as requiring antenna types yellow-blue). The non-digital channels have a lot of static, but I'm not really concerned as everything I want is in digital. While the channels look great when they are tuned in, I don't like having this ugly antenna next to my beautiful TV and I find that the antenna is somewhat sensitive. By sensitive I mean that the channels fade in and out if I'm walking in certain parts of the room. I can't switch to a roof mount because I live in a condo and the association prohibits them. I could mount one in a bucket of cement and place it on my 2nd floor patio, but my wife won't allow it and it would require a fairly long run of cable (75'). My condo is multi-level and I have a crawlspace/attic. While I'm technically not allowed to put anything up there, I'm sure I can get away with it. I think that I'd prefer to go this route rather than battle with the association and wave the FCC Fact Sheet on Placement of Antennas in their face.


I understand that placing an antenna in the attic results in a 30%-50% drop in signal strength. The good this is that the max run of the cable will be 25' since I only need it brought to one jack which is in my upstairs. Will the attic mount result is a signal that is worse than my $39 indoor Terk? I was considering an antenna like the DB4 HDTV from Antennas direct. Does anyone have a better suggestion for receiving channels only 31 miles away and all in the same compass orientation? I will also need to hire someone to install the antenna. Are there any suggestions on finding someone who is experienced with antenna mounting and knows how to point it in the correct direction?


Thanks in advance!


----------



## rdwalt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rothgar* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I know it is not everywhere. At the house I used to live (covina, ca) channel 11 was crystal clear. Heck every channel I could think of came in great with not a problem. because you cannot mannually add channels I found myself scanning channels in covina and then bringing the box to my new place in Arcadia, ca. This at least allowed me to check signal on channel 11. I have never been able to receive it OTA in arcadia though.
> 
> 
> I think I am going to go ahead and try out the FusionHDTV5 gold lite card and hope that all my sorrows will go away. I need to get this to work before Sunday though because 24 comes back on. Wish me luck and I will post back with my results.



You can manually add channels with the SIR-T451.


----------



## jonroach13

Hey guys,


I went looking through the forums and stickys to try to find an answer. The antennae sticky was 127 pages alone!!!


anyways, my question is... i am picking up an LCD LT26HVX today for my room. The main use will be XBOX360 and DVD. Will a HDTV antenna work on this TV or will it not because it doesn't have a built in ATSC tuner.... do I need a TV with an ATSC to do this? (should I wait for the Norcent 26" LCD that will have both tuners built in?)


Thanks!!!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markbean* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Will an attic mount provide better reception than an indoor?
> 
> 
> I understand that placing an antenna in the attic results in a 30%-50% drop in signal strength. Will the attic mount result is a signal that is worse than my $39 indoor Terk? I was considering an antenna like the DB4 HDTV from Antennas direct. Does anyone have a better suggestion for receiving channels only 31 miles away and all in the same compass orientation? I will also need to hire someone to install the antenna. Are there any suggestions on finding someone who is experienced with antenna mounting and knows how to point it in the correct direction?



Okay... First of all, an attic install will usually be better than a TV-top install, because the antenna will be higher and mobile sources of multipath (this includes you walking around the house) are further away. The exception to this is if you have a window that is letting signal through, and your attic has metal between your antenna and the outside world (foil-faced insulation, steel roof, etc) But the 30%-50% loss rule (it's actually much higher) applies to your living room, not just your attic.


So you're getting perfect reception with the Terk in your living room... why not put it in your attic? You don't need more antenna, right? And you already know how to aim it or you wouldn't be getting good reception where it is. To "mount" it, just tie it in place with rope (don't use wire) or place it on a surface where you feel confident it won't move. The only thing you might need a pro for would be to run the cable, and any handyman can do that.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jonroach13* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Will a HDTV antenna work on this TV or will it not because it doesn't have a built in ATSC tuner.... do I need a TV with an ATSC to do this? (should I wait for the Norcent 26" LCD that will have both tuners built in?)



For an HD-Ready set like yours, you'd need an external tuner box (STB) to receive HD through an antenna. See the HDTV Hardware forum for lots of tips and advice about which to buy. Used ones can be had for $100 or so.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jonroach13* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey guys,
> 
> 
> I went looking through the forums and stickys to try to find an answer. The antennae sticky was 127 pages alone!!!
> 
> 
> anyways, my question is... i am picking up an LCD LT26HVX today for my room. The main use will be XBOX360 and DVD. Will a HDTV antenna work on this TV or will it not because it doesn't have a built in ATSC tuner.... do I need a TV with an ATSC to do this? (should I wait for the Norcent 26" LCD that will have both tuners built in?)
> 
> 
> Thanks!!!



You are correct, the ($700-800) Olevia LT26HVX only receives analog NTSC stations, since it does not have an ATSC Decoder:
http://secure.syntaxgroups.com/news/...heet_26hvx.pdf 

To receive ATSC, you would have to buy an external OTA STB, such as the $90 R-S HTS-6000 (good luck trying to locate one)

or one of several others available in the $200 range.


Since this small size has not yet met the ATSC tuner mandate, only a few have an integrated ATSC tuner, such as the following:

SAMSUNG LNR269D ($1200)

Sharp AQUOS LC-26D4U ($1200) also CableCARD ready

Sharp AQUOS LC-26D6U ($1200) also CableCARD ready


Yes, if you wait, LCD prices are said to be headed downward...


----------



## andrewjnyc

I've been experiencing some major headaches tuning in channels with my Radio Shack 15-1880 (connected to a home-built Windows MCE 2005 box I'm using as the receiver). The antenna is on the windowsill of my 2nd floor apartment in New York's East Village, which faces NE onto an airshaft. I point the antenna NW toward the Empire State Building (from which most local stations broadcast in HD via the "combiner") to draw in stations, and I can usually get WCBS, WNBC, WABC, WWOR and WPIX...but the thing is, I can never get them all at the same time. If I move the antenna around into a position where it picks up WNBC, I lose WPIX and WWOR. One day, WPIX may be coming in fine, but the next, I have to move the antenna around again (either scooting it side to side or rotating it) to bring the station back in. I'd love to be able to find a spot where I can get everything and leave the antenna alone and have it *just work*.


Two questions:

1) Could height be a bigger help, reception-wise, than proximity to the window? The windowsill is about 4' off the ground, but I could easily put the antenna on top of a 7' cabinet that is next to the window, though the antenna would no longer be right by it.


2) The antenna's gain is turned up to the max, because it's been difficult to get WNBC otherwise. I've heard that sometimes a lower gain can be better because there can sometimes be conflicts between high gain and a strong signal. Would lower gain + a better position help where WNBC is concerned?


This is a real pain because I want to be able to record programs on different channels while I'm out, but now have to choose between one or the other (ie between Smallville and The Office tonight) because of not being able to recieve everything at the same time. Any tips on how to handle the situation would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## markbean




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Okay... First of all, an attic install will usually be better than a TV-top install, because the antenna will be higher and mobile sources of multipath (this includes you walking around the house) are further away. The exception to this is if you have a window that is letting signal through, and your attic has metal between your antenna and the outside world (foil-faced insulation, steel roof, etc) But the 30%-50% loss rule (it's actually much higher) applies to your living room, not just your attic.
> 
> 
> So you're getting perfect reception with the Terk in your living room... why not put it in your attic? You don't need more antenna, right? And you already know how to aim it or you wouldn't be getting good reception where it is. To "mount" it, just tie it in place with rope (don't use wire) or place it on a surface where you feel confident it won't move. The only thing you might need a pro for would be to run the cable, and any handyman can do that.



The TV and antenna are currently on the second floor. The antenna is facing toward the opposite wall which has two standard sized windows. The attic is really just a crawl space with the insulation on the floor of the attic and nothing on the roof but wood and roofing. I guess I could just use the existing terk up there but I was thinking that a full fledged antenna would be better. What about something simple like the Model: U-75R at Radio Shack? I could still return the Terk and pocket the difference.


The last thing I'd want to have to do is go up there and adjust it. I just have this fear of putting my foot through the ceiling of my bedroom.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *andrewjnyc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've been experiencing some major headaches tuning in channels with my Radio Shack 15-1880 (connected to a home-built Windows MCE 2005 box I'm using as the receiver).



Hmmm. Awful antenna. Having major headaches. Shocker.


Take it back, get your money back, and get a "real" antenna like the Zenith Silver Sensor. It will likely solve a lot of your problems.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markbean* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I guess I could just use the existing terk up there but I was thinking that a full fledged antenna would be better. What about something simple like the Model: U-75R at Radio Shack? I could still return the Terk and pocket the difference.



Well, given that the Terk works so well, I'd guess you won't have too much trouble with just about any conventional antenna design, like the Radio Shack U75. If you're intent on replacing your current antenna, I'd lean towards the bowtie models, though, because they do much better in attics than yagis (which is what the U75 is.) The Channel Master 4221 (4-bay bowtie) is an excellent choice.


----------



## firemantom26

stacking 4228 help


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The way I am going to try it is two equal lengths of coax coming off each baulms into two 7777 amps, run two coax cables "RG6' into the house, then into the power supplies, than combine them at that point, then from there into the TV. What were the best results you have had on spacing each antennas? I have them with each bow tie at equal lengths. I had to over lap the screens to do this. what do you think. How important is the spacing of each antennas?

Thank You

__________________


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *firemantom26* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> stacking 4228 help
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...
> 
> What were the best results you have had on spacing each antennas? I have them with each bow tie at equal lengths. I had to over lap the screens to do this. what do you think. How important is the spacing of each antennas?
> 
> Thank You
> 
> __________________



Horizontal stacking adds nulls to the beampattern including ones in each side of the mainlobe which narrows it. The more widely spaced the stack the closer to the peak the nulls move so wider stacks have narrower mainlobes and higher first sidelobes. Too close of stacking can do other things because if the bowties get too close they affect each other. A typical stack of two 4228 would be with their screens just touching but I would think the spacing you have would be a good wideband choice with reasonably low first side lobes. I would need to model the stack with NEC to be certain though. If one nearby station is causing problems and you only need to point the stack in a single direction it can be helpful to be able to adjust the stack spacing to optimize the nulling of the problem path.


----------



## Noots

Hopefully I got the forum right this time...


OK--first post, Bear with me on this. Just upgraded from SD to HD via DirecTV so I have the 5LNB dish. Yes, I now have HD locals via the dish giving me CBS, NBC, ABC and FOX.


However, one of the things the Mrs. has been carping about since we switched from cable to DirecTV a two years ago was that the Weather Channel no longer recognizes us as being Chicago area for their local segments, meaning we get the whole country's forecast (I swear she could watch that channel all day just to see the radar and forecasts).


So one of the things I thought I'd be getting with my upgrade to HD would be the multicast locals--the stuff like 5.1, 5.2, 5.whatever that people have said would provide 24 hour local weather. I don't get that with my current configuration.


So my question for you all is this: Will I get what I'm looking for by dropping the 50 bucks or so to get an indoor OTA in terms of the locals (hey, I'll get WGN-TV as well for HD Sox games and the Mrs loves their 9PM news)?


Secondarily, I'm looking for a couple of recommendations on antennae. I took a look at this one at Radio Shack yesterday and it looked really sleek--I'm looking for something that will be able to be seen in the room as opposed to mounted in the attic: Radio Shack model 15-1892 (looks like the radar jammer on top of a stealth plane or something).


Has anyone any experience with the above one?


Thanks for taking a moment to look at my mess of questions.


Noots


----------



## rothgar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rdwalt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You can manually add channels with the SIR-T451.



I have been unable to find how to manually add channels in the manual and online. Please do explain. I am able to delete channels once they are autotuned and am also able to add them back if they have previously been deleted. But a channel that does not auto-tune I cannot find how/where to add it.


I know I can add, for example 7-0, but I cannot add 7-1, 7-2, 7-3 etc. because the box only tunes to the *-0 channel when you punch in the channel number manually.


----------



## BrettTRay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Noots* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hopefully I got the forum right this time...
> 
> 
> OK--first post, Bear with me on this. Just upgraded from SD to HD via DirecTV so I have the 5LNB dish. Yes, I now have HD locals via the dish giving me CBS, NBC, ABC and FOX.
> 
> 
> However, one of the things the Mrs. has been carping about since we switched from cable to DirecTV a two years ago was that the Weather Channel no longer recognizes us as being Chicago area for their local segments, meaning we get the whole country's forecast (I swear she could watch that channel all day just to see the radar and forecasts).
> 
> 
> So one of the things I thought I'd be getting with my upgrade to HD would be the multicast locals--the stuff like 5.1, 5.2, 5.whatever that people have said would provide 24 hour local weather. I don't get that with my current configuration.
> 
> 
> So my question for you all is this: Will I get what I'm looking for by dropping the 50 bucks or so to get an indoor OTA in terms of the locals (hey, I'll get WGN-TV as well for HD Sox games and the Mrs loves their 9PM news)?
> 
> 
> Secondarily, I'm looking for a couple of recommendations on antennae. I took a look at this one at Radio Shack yesterday and it looked really sleek--I'm looking for something that will be able to be seen in the room as opposed to mounted in the attic: Radio Shack model 15-1892 (looks like the radar jammer on top of a stealth plane or something).
> 
> 
> Has anyone any experience with the above one?
> 
> 
> Thanks for taking a moment to look at my mess of questions.
> 
> 
> Noots



Let us know how far from the local transmitter towers you are and someone can give you a recommendation on a antenna. Also, to answer one of your questions, Directv doesn't broadcast the multicast stations like .2, .3, just the main station. If you local stations broadcast multicast stations then you will get them via antenna. Me personally I don't like multicast. It takes away from picture quality. I don't mind it as much on 720p stations as bad as 1080i because 720p is a little more tolerant of lower bandwidth. NBC from one of the DMA's I pick up broadcast "The Tube" which I'm glad they do.


----------



## rdwalt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rothgar* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have been unable to find how to manually add channels in the manual and online. Please do explain. I am able to delete channels once they are autotuned and am also able to add them back if they have previously been deleted. But a channel that does not auto-tune I cannot find how/where to add it.
> 
> 
> I know I can add, for example 7-0, but I cannot add 7-1, 7-2, 7-3 etc. because the box only tunes to the *-0 channel when you punch in the channel number manually.



Right, if the receiver doesn't pick up the broadcast you can't add it.


----------



## Noots

Thanks, I appreciate that.


I'm in the Western suburbs and am 20 miles to Sears Tower and John Hancock, where the signals come from.


----------



## newsposter

What's the effect of fog on OTA? I'm 40 miles out with a DB8 and 125 ft run. Paid someone to put the antenna 10 ft up on the chimney this morning. Fox is 2 degrees off but all other stations are the same direction. However it appeared even though it was on the roof, I couldn't get in ch 64 and 67 in the high 80s like i did in the attic. My guess is the chimney was 5 ft to the right of the original spot inside and i guess that made the difference. But i didnt' want the hassle of a tripod.


Anyway, after over 1 hour of struggling aiming the antenna 1 millimeter at a time, and trying a pre amp from the guy (turns out my regular amp was better anyways), I've now gotten fox to be solid mid 60s and channel 67 and 64 seem to be solid 68ish or 72 ish. If everything stays as is, i'll be thrilled as I can record solid 60 signals. But I was wondering if the dense fog helped or hurt the aiming this morning? If all the channels die tonight after the fog is gone, i'll scream lol.


----------



## HDTVChallenged

Not the fog per se, but the radiational temperature inversion the helped produce the fog might have some effect.


I found that it is best to do antenna installs in the mid-afternoon, which usually provides the "worst case" conditions.


----------



## Sirchadwick

FYI - The Television DX'ing is great the past two days. Do a channel surf and you will find many new channels.


By the way, does anyone have the website address which identifies when the DX'ing is good? I know the link was on this website, but I do not recall where.


Thanks....


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HDTVChallenged* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Not the fog per se, but the radiational temperature inversion the helped produce the fog might have some effect.
> 
> 
> I found that it is best to do antenna installs in the mid-afternoon, which usually provides the "worst case" conditions.



wow those are big words...does that mean the conditions were bad in all that dense fog or good?


----------



## HDTVChallenged

"Could be either good or bad," he said cryptically.










*Generally*, inversions tend to improve distant reception as they allow the signal to skip along the ground ... "Locals" can go either way


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sirchadwick* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> By the way, does anyone have the website address which identifies when the DX'ing is good? I know the link was on this website, but I do not recall where.


 http://home.cogeco.ca/~dxinfo/tropo.html


----------



## TVSaurus

Update on my attempt at using both a CM 4221 and 4228 to receive channels from two different directions.


It really doesn't work.


I have the new 4228 mounted on a 25' mast outside and a use a RS15-2507 amplifier and it is aimed at the furtherest location which is New Orleans and I receive those channels great. I'm using splitter in reverse and I do lose some db but not that much.


The 4221 is in the attic and pointed to my local stations. The signal jumps from high to low continueously. If I remove the amplifier from the 4228 the 4221 signal stays steady but the distance channels on the 4228 are barely visable. So I have to have the amp to pick them up.


So in the end I guess my problem is multipath and I'll just have to use a jointenna to accoomplish what I need. No great $ loss since it only cost me a $6 splitter.


----------



## andrewjnyc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hmmm. Awful antenna. Having major headaches. Shocker.
> 
> 
> Take it back, get your money back, and get a "real" antenna like the Zenith Silver Sensor. It will likely solve a lot of your problems.



I used to own a Silver Sensor, but returned it to Amazon because I was having similar problems. This was in the summer of 1994, before the "combiner" transmitter at the Empire State Building went online. I'd hoped that with the combiner in place, the antenna wouldn't make much difference...and I searched this thread and found quite a few endorsements of the 15-1880 here (another factor is that it isn't as "deep" and therefore is easier to stick on the windowsill.


I'm less than 3km as the crow flies from the ESB, where all the local HD channels (except PBS and Fox) originate. Since they're all coming from the same place, I'm confused as to why I can't (for example) get NBC and the WB at the same time.


In any event, it's too late to return the antenna to Radio Shack, since I bought it back in October.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *andrewjnyc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I used to own a Silver Sensor, but returned it to Amazon because I was having similar problems. This was in the summer of 1994, before the "combiner" transmitter at the Empire State Building went online. I'd hoped that with the combiner in place, the antenna wouldn't make much difference...and I searched this thread and found quite a few endorsements of the 15-1880 here (another factor is that it isn't as "deep" and therefore is easier to stick on the windowsill.
> 
> 
> I'm less than 3km as the crow flies from the ESB, where all the local HD channels (except PBS and Fox) originate. Since they're all coming from the same place, I'm confused as to why I can't (for example) get NBC and the WB at the same time.
> 
> 
> In any event, it's too late to return the antenna to Radio Shack, since I bought it back in October.



Have you tried rotating the inner bowties to a horizontal position rather that at the vertical position in which they usually come? It made 100% difference for me and has worked for some others here, too.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Noots* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks, I appreciate that.
> 
> 
> I'm in the Western suburbs and am 20 miles to Sears Tower and John Hancock, where the signals come from.



20 miles is not far at all if you have a clear line of sight towards the towers and preferably some height to your antenna placement. Not sure what antenna that is, but if it's the one shaped like a bullet with both ends pointed, I've never really heard much about it. The Silver Sensor, Radio Shack 15-1880 and the Radio Shack $15.00 double bowtie have all gotten decent results across the board. Just a thought - if the thing you are mainly interested in is the local weather, but you have no luck receiving the TV stations, there's always one of those cheap weather radios like they sell at stores like Radio Shack that run the continually updated National Weather Service area broadcasts 24/7. Or better yet get yourself a radio scanner, as they receive those also. (It can be pretty fun and interesting knowing what's going on "behind the scenes" in your neighborhood!)


----------



## Sirchadwick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> wow those are big words...does that mean the conditions were bad in all that dense fog or good?



Actually, the best DX'ing is in the fog. It is like putting the signal thru a pipe. I have witnessed incredible television reception during these events!


----------



## TVSaurus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVSaurus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Update on my attempt at using both a CM 4221 and 4228 to receive channels from two different directions.
> 
> 
> It really doesn't work.
> 
> 
> I have the new 4228 mounted on a 25' mast outside and a use a RS15-2507 amplifier and it is aimed at the furtherest location which is New Orleans and I receive those channels great. I'm using splitter in reverse and I do lose some db but not that much.
> 
> 
> The 4221 is in the attic and pointed to my local stations. The signal jumps from high to low continueously. If I remove the amplifier from the 4228 the 4221 signal stays steady but the distance channels on the 4228 are barely visable. So I have to have the amp to pick them up.
> 
> 
> So in the end I guess my problem is multipath and I'll just have to use a jointenna to accoomplish what I need. No great $ loss since it only cost me a $6 splitter.



I just realize something....if using two antennas and trying to pickup one station causes problems then how is the jointenna going to help? Since the jointenna is made to the frequency I need then wouldn't the problem continue? Maybe I'm just putting to much into this and should just do it.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVSaurus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just realize something....if using two antennas and trying to pickup one station causes problems then how is the jointenna going to help? Since the jointenna is made to the frequency I need then wouldn't the problem continue? Maybe I'm just putting to much into this and should just do it.



The Jointenna sucks out the ghosty signal from the antenna that is aimed in the wrong direction and replaces it with the clear signal from the antenna that is aimed in the correct direction.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVSaurus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Update on my attempt at using both a CM 4221 and 4228 to receive channels from two different directions.
> 
> 
> It really doesn't work.
> 
> 
> The 4221 is in the attic and pointed to my local stations. The signal jumps from high to low continueously. If I remove the amplifier from the 4228 the 4221 signal stays steady but the distance channels on the 4228 are barely visable. So I have to have the amp to pick them up.
> 
> 
> So in the end I guess my problem is multipath and I'll just have to use a jointenna to accoomplish what I need. No great $ loss since it only cost me a $6 splitter.



By installing the 4221 in the attic, you have attenuated the signal of the local channels. That makes the ghosty signal from the amplified 4228 even stronger than the clean signal of the 4221. It might work with the 4221 on top of the house instead of in the attic.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVSaurus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just realize something....if using two antennas and trying to pickup one station causes problems then how is the jointenna going to help? Since the jointenna is made to the frequency I need then wouldn't the problem continue? Maybe I'm just putting to much into this and should just do it.



Each input of the Jointenna has a set of filters on it. On one input, the filter permits (in theory) only one channel, and filters out everything else. (In practice, the filter isn't that precise, so it lets in a few channels on either side of the desired channel, too.) The other input filters out the frequency permitted by the other input and allows everything else.


If it were a computer program, it would look like this:


INPUT1 - IF channel=x THEN passthru ELSE block

INPUT2 - IF channel=x THEN block ELSE passthru


x = the channel the Jointenna is tuned to.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> By installing the 4221 in the attic, you have attenuated the signal of the local channels. That makes the ghosty signal from the amplified 4228 even stronger than the clean signal of the 4221. It might work with the 4221 on top of the house instead of in the attic.



I'll second the roof as well. Just mounted the DB8 on a 10ft pole on the chimney. In the attic i was getting high 80s signals (and did fluctuate downward 10 sometimes) for upper uhf but never got in channel 42, which was important to me. Now on the roof, since channel 42 is 2 degrees off, i still had to make a compromise, but the upper uhfs are still recording fine at a signal in the 60s and i now have a signal in the 60s for channel 42 also. I'm pretty sure it's because it's a stable signal due to the roof mounting. If i made the same adjustment in the attic, no way would there be a steady signal.


So it's true that a 'clean' low steady signal is better than a 'multipath ridden' higher signal, at least in my case.


----------



## BooniesTom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I bought one of those RS tuners because the clearence price of $90 was too low to resist. I am not sure what the SNR number represents but it is not based on the AGC value or channel power for an analog station. The channel power does seem to affect the signal strength level. When I tune to an analog station number (after clearing all channels by doing an auto re-scan with the antenna unconnected) The SNR number is usually an erratic 17 dB regardless of how strong the station is but the bar graph and signal strength readout is a consistant 49% for strong stations. Both those values seem to have more meaning when tuned to a digital station but I don't think you can read RF signal strength using them..



Most of thread is lost on me, but this response sounds like it may relate to a problem I am having. I'm experimenting with a RS Accurian tuner, and cannot get it to give me a picture on any station. For any reasonably strong station, the tuner seems to "peg" at a signal strength of 49%, and I get no picture. I use a long distance roof antenna, with a CM0064 amplifier. Only one station in my area is HD, but it is a strong station. According to the Accurian, though, even that one is still a "49".


I was assuming my RS tuner had some sort of defect until I saw your post. Any explanation you can offer for this 49% symptom, and how I might overcome it, would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## newsposter

I had to open my mouth and curse myself. It all went to heck this afternoon.


Note I want WB/UPN so waiting for the HDdvr doesn't help me right now.


local installer ($60 per hour) that I hired to put the DB8 that I previously bought on the chimney won't be back in the office until Monday so I wanted my options before then. I had it in the attic but couldn't get in fox (uhf 42) because it was 2 degrees off. I figured if I got 75-90 in the attic on the other nets, (except 54), that on the chimney would be a good compromise to get in fox because in theory the signal is stronger outside right?


Well after much fiddling, we got it to where ch 42/54/64/67 were all pretty solid 60-70. Thing is, even when he was fiddling outside, i never got 64/67 to as good a signal as I had in the attic. I guess this was more of a big deal than I thought at the time. Does it sound reasonable that because the chimney was actually 6-8 ft away from the site in my attic, that it may be the reason I never got in a good signal outside? I'm assuming the antenna is perfectly plumb but of course I have no way of telling. He did seem to take great care when he did the chimney mount.


So overnight we had a very bad thunder storm. however this morning all the channels were the same as yesterday. Then this afternoon the winds and rains kicked up and the channels were all unwatchable during the storm (going from zero up to 70 wildly). Even now that it's calmed down, i can't get back in ch 67 but the others are relatively ok. I'm assuming this means the antenna moved. I didn't think up high on a 10 ft pole was very stable but he assured me it was rock solid. Obviously this isn't true.


So i have to think of my options and it's frustrating


1. tell him the antenna moved and make them somehow shore it up. I'd assume they would have to do this free/reduced cost since it obviously moved. However the problem I have this this option is even at the time of install, i only got low 70s for a high signal when inside i was getting 80s. So this may be foolish to try and solidify an antenna in this relatively poor position.


2. maybe lower the antenna on the 10ft pole down a few feet to make it more stable? Or is this pointless given my 'weak' signals of 60-70?


3. I'm assuming you can do a tripod mount on the peak of any roof. (didn't ask him but i'd assume they can do that). I could have him stand near the spot where I had the good signals inside and try to find a good signal and I'd assume they should be the same/stronger on the roof at that point. Then we can determine how ch 42 will come in at that point. I'd assume they would do this as they are the pros and i dont see how else you could tell a good signal. Also if they can't get in all 6 networks, I may as well put the antenna back inside away from the elements.


4. try to lower the antenna for more stability and just aim for channel 42 then put another antenna back in the attic and get another antenna (though I know it's a 2 week wait for a jointenna unless I can do something like a reverse splitter? Of course then there's the cost for another antenna plus 30 for the jointenna. And now i'm really paranoid about outside mounts not being stable.


5. ask them what antenna they have for my area (I know the like wineguard) and ask him to do a test of it on the chimney mount.



I already spent 200 on friday. I dont know how much more I want to put into this. I definitely have to have him back here, even if just to take the antenna down, as I dont climb on roofs. My gut says have him use a tripod and at least try to move the antenna to a point where the signal is at least as strong as inside and get the antenna as low to the roof as possible to minimize wind problems. I guess the 6 ft to the one side made a big difference.


----------



## holl_ands

The R-S HTS-6000 Accurian Tuner only receives ATSC digital stations, not analog:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...og#post6335957


----------



## rothgar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rothgar* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I know it is not everywhere. At the house I used to live (covina, ca) channel 11 was crystal clear. Heck every channel I could think of came in great with not a problem. because you cannot mannually add channels I found myself scanning channels in covina and then bringing the box to my new place in Arcadia, ca. This at least allowed me to check signal on channel 11. I have never been able to receive it OTA in arcadia though.
> 
> 
> I think I am going to go ahead and try out the FusionHDTV5 gold lite card and hope that all my sorrows will go away. I need to get this to work before Sunday though because 24 comes back on. Wish me luck and I will post back with my results.



Well I bought the FusionHDTV5 gold plus card and I am still working with it but at the very least this card get amazing reception with QAM channels. I have any channel I could want through QAM. I could not get fox OTA yet but my antenna is not in it's usual spot. I will try a couple of things and post back.


At the very least though, this card is much more reliable than the SIR-T451 and I can use multiple peices of software to try the OTA. Mediaportal seems to keep crashing and the fusion software is ok. I am going to try Got All Media and a couple others to see if that changes anything.


----------



## TVSaurus

Well guys....guess what? I did something unusual today. Went to a local salvage store that had a water damaged Radio Shack stock. Found one of the same antenna amp that I had previously purchased and am using on the CH 4228. For 40% off $60 I said to myself what the heck let me give it a try on the weird acting 4221 that I've been using for my locals.


Got home, hooked it up and all my channels from both antennas are performing flawlessly! I'm so happy and it didn't set me back too much money. I'm getting New Orleans to the SW and my locals to the NNE all with a 80-95% signal. Now don't get me wrong the weather is very clear and calm tonight so who knows if this stroke of luck will last. I only hope it does.


Once New Orleans gets all of its HD channels back online this year I could potentially have 8 HD networks from 10 HD channels.


I hope that I didn't just curse myself.


So I've proven that a reversed splitter does work for bring in two antennas. Will it last? We'll see.


Thanks to all that provided great advice and support.


----------



## Phantom Gremlin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I had it in the attic but couldn't get in fox (uhf 42) because it was 2 degrees off.



You seem fixated on 2 degrees in multiple posts as if it makes a major difference in signal strength. I don't think it does. Here is a plot of DB8 performance:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB8.html 


According to that graph you can be +/- 7.5 degrees before losing even 1 dB of signal. But that's a computer simulation so who knows how well it matches reality. There are other antenna hints on that site.


I don't think 2 degrees makes much of a difference on *any* TV antenna you can buy. But that's just theory, so YMMV.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Phantom Gremlin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You seem fixated on 2 degrees in multiple posts as if it makes a major difference in signal strength. I don't think it does. Here is a plot of DB8 performance:
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB8.html
> 
> 
> According to that graph you can be +/- 7.5 degrees before losing even 1 dB of signal. But that's a computer simulation so who knows how well it matches reality. There are other antenna hints on that site.
> 
> 
> I don't think 2 degrees makes much of a difference on *any* TV antenna you can buy. But that's just theory, so YMMV.



I guess maybe overall it's probably that the tower is only 161 high and 305 power vs 350 height and 500 power on the other stations.


Also, in the attic, aiming for ch42 brought that up to signal in the 60s, but did kill the other channels (notably 54 64 67). So i assumed it was the 2 degrees thats the problem. But i guess with a low tower, it's really a power thing


the more i think about this, the chimney is a bad idea. IF he couldn't get the high 80s signal that i got inside, while it was on the chimney, i should have realized something is wrong and made him do something else like a tripod further over on the roof above where it was inside the attic. I think i have a tunnel i'm shooting through the more i think about it. if he can't find the 80s signal on the roof, i'll just have to move it inside and give up fox


Also i've been told a jointenna wont even help me in this situation since it's only 2 degrees apart.


----------



## AntAltMike

I see nothing in newposter's post to indicate that the installer did anything less than a competent job. I have installed a thousand broadcast antennas and I have never checked to see that they are perfectly plumb, and I don't even use any kind of a compass to see where they are pointed. Broadcast TV antennas do not have the same tight, uniform reception characteristics as do parabolic satellite antennas, and frequently, in harsh multipath situations, an antenna will perform better on certain stations when aimed slightly off-target.


A customer who furnishes his own antenna is not a valuable customer, because the installer makes less money on that job than on one in which he also sells the antenna. Don't be surprised of this installer declines to return, since he may be concerned that a dissatisfied customer might not want to pay for the return visit.


----------



## rwantennasat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Google brought this up on the 4257.Likely a precursor to the 4248 with similar specs.
> 
> 
> Edit: Upon closer scrutiny of that pic of the 4257,it has 5 or 6 more director bays than the 4248.This was the largest corner reflector made by Channel Master.It probably has a little more gain on the upper channels (60 and above) which may have been needed years ago.
> 
> http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache...hl=en&ie=UTF-8
> 
> 
> Provided everything with this 15 yr old install is working as good as it did when new,I doubt it will help that much to change to a different UHF antenna-unless you go all-out(see below post).However,with 15 yrs on the twinlead and connection points,there's a chance it's not performing as well as it did when new.Also,if the coax from the preamp is that old,it may need to be changed out too.
> 
> 
> You didn't mention reception on ch20 and 50.I suspect local DT-19 and DT-49 are bleeding over snow on these channels.



I have the gain and curve charts for both the ch.master 4250 6ft parabolic and the 4251 7 ft parabolic. if anyone needs a copy faxed or needs the info e-mail me at :[email protected] B.T.W. we are currenty redesigning the channel master 6 ft antenna to bring back into production. I suspect that we will sell many of these as i've seen nothing in my 25 years in the antenna business that can compare to a parabolic for directivity, fto b ratio or overall gain!


----------



## rwantennasat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I see nothing in newposter's post to indicate that the installer did anything less than a competent job. I have installed a thousand broadcast antennas and I have never checked to see that they are perfectly plumb, and I don't even use any kind of a compass to see where they are pointed. Broadcast TV antennas do not have the same tight, uniform reception characteristics as do parabolic satellite antennas, and frequently, in harsh multipath situations, an antenna will perform better on certain stations when aimed slightly off-target.
> 
> 
> A customer who furnishes his own antenna is not a valuable customer, because the installer makes less money on that job than on one in which he also sells the antenna. Don't be surprised of this installer declines to return, since he may be concerned that a dissatisfied customer might not want to pay for the return visit.



HURRAY HURRAY: i am an installer as well and having 25 years or better at antennas sort of makes me an expert. 2 degres isnt going to make jack of difference. Now if you were using a uhf parabolic as i do you can see some nulls at a 2 degree difference,but no way with a db-8. they're beamwidth is to wide to begin with. wondering if you had an open view (no trees) when in attic but when raised you ran into some obstruction in the path. that would be more likley. or possibly a poor piece of coax? Also dont forget that anything but a FSM is just a relative reading Meters on STB's are not much only for reference. Here in Wny if the cust has an antenna and no rotor we take our fsm and try to max it out on the channels wanted. This does not always take into consideration Multipath problems. Its always best to consult with a EXPERIENCED antenna installer who knows your area. I can tell a person what they need just by asking them where they live. In some cases a multibay works best ,but many times we'll use a winegard yagi and get netter results.

Rich Wertman\\

R.W. antenna svce Inc


----------



## Sirchadwick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rwantennasat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have the gain and curve charts for both the ch.master 4250 6ft parabolic and the 4251 7 ft parabolic. if anyone needs a copy faxed or needs the info e-mail me at :[email protected] B.T.W. we are currenty redesigning the channel master 6 ft antenna to bring back into production. I suspect that we will sell many of these as i've seen nothing in my 25 years in the antenna business that can compare to a parabolic for directivity, fto b ratio or overall gain!



It is good to here the positive feedback about the CM parabolics. As a owner of both the 4251 and the 4257 Diamond Quantum, I feel that these are the best UHF antennas made!


To briefly focus on the 4257, the constuction of this antenna is flawless. I have had this erected for 15 years and cannot say anything negative. The gain of this antenna is the "best" around for a yagi. This is 115" in length and has a gain of 13.8dB at Channel 60. These "older" CM antennas are bulit very well.


Here are the 4257 specs.


Ch F/B ratio (db)


14 20

19 19

27 20

35 18

44 20

52 17

60 15

69 11


For example, in reviewing the Antenna's Direct 91XG, we have rated this as an "underperformer." The construction of the antenna is POOR. The unit which we observed had a rear deflector that was already showing small area of rust. (brand new out of the box) The balun is located in such a poor area, that you have to perform a 180 degree turn on the cable to "run" it along the bottom of the antenna. This is not only an eyesore, but degrades the antennas GAIN, as blocking the signal.


In comparison to the 4257, the elements are stainless steel construction and the entire boom is one long piece, whereas the 91XG is 4 seperate pieces. The 4257 antenna has prooven itself in the field, whereas the 91XG, is a newbie to this market. On another note, the 4257, has a compartment on the rear of the antenna which houses the balun in a weatherproof housing.


After fully revewing the 91XG, it was decided NOT to use it due the exterior rusting on the black reflector, poor assembly & reflector design, and lastly the placement of the balun.


At this point, we decided to upgrade the CM00264 - 300ohm dual input amplier to the CM7777. This in turn required the replacment of the "old" 300 ohm cable from the antennas to the amplifier.


I would recommend replacing the amplifier every 15 years, as new techynology is better. Switching from the Spartan to the Titan was well worth the $60.00.


On the VHF note, I am using the CM 3610. This is the baby to have for the serious DXer's. With a length of 147" and a gain of 11.6dB on channel 13, I have not been able to find another antenna on the market that is bulit as well, or that can perform like this.


In conclusion, you just cannot beat the older CM products! These newer yagi antenna's do NOT have the reliability and contruction of these. I was going to replace both of the CM antennas with new ones, however, I was unable to find something that was better in performance or construction.


Many people are swearing by the 91XG, 4228, etc... however, when you have a 3610 & a 4257 funneled into a Titan 7777 pre-amp at 62 feet in the air, I am viewing stations up to 110 miles in digital. Analog signals are ranging from 115 - 140 miles that can be watched 24/7. Again, this is line of sight, and this is where the gain and amplifier are needed.


----------



## jtbell

[about the Samsung SIR-T451]



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rothgar* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have been unable to find how to manually add channels in the manual and online.



While you're *not* in any of the menus, and none of the on-screen displays is visible (just a blank screen or a picture from another station) enter the channel number that the desired station actually broadcasts its digital signal on, not the channel number that the station is usually known by. For example, my "channel 7" actually broadcasts its digital signal on channel 53, so if I needed to add that station manually I would have to enter 53 not 7. If the receiver manages to lock onto the signal, it picks up the PSIP data, and the little on-screen display then changes from "53-0" to "7-1" plus the callsign. From that point on I can tune it as channel 7. But the *first* time I try to tune it, it has to be 53.


After you've entered the digital channel number, if the receiver doesn't lock onto the signal, you can call up the signal strength meter in the menus to see if you're getting anything at all, and use the meter to guide you as you move the antenna around to try to improve things.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rwantennasat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...i've seen nothing in my 25 years in the antenna business that can compare to a parabolic for directivity, fto b ratio or overall gain!



Just out of curiosity, what is the front-to-back ratio of the CM parabolics? I haven't been able to find the published specs anywhere.


----------



## jayMD

I need some help! I appreciate any info anyone can give. I am able to get all channels OTA except NBC (very important) and PBS (can deal with this in SD although it would be nice). I believe that I currently have The Winegard PR-8800 8-Bay antenna. Below is my antennaweb information. Please let me know if you have any suggestions. Thank you.


DTV Antenna

Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live

Date Compass

Orientation Miles

From Frequency

Assignment

* yellow - uhf WNUV-DT 54.1 WB BALTIMORE MD 357° 17.4 40

* yellow - uhf WJZ-DT 13.1 CBS BALTIMORE MD 357° 17.3 38

* yellow - uhf WMAR-DT 2.1 ABC BALTIMORE MD 357° 17.3 52

* yellow - uhf WMPT-DT 22.1 PBS ANNAPOLIS MD 209° 5.8 42

* yellow - uhf WBAL-DT 11.1 NBC BALTIMORE MD 357° 17.3 59

* yellow - uhf WBFF-DT 45.1 FOX BALTIMORE MD 357° 17.4 46


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jayMD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I need some help! I appreciate any info anyone can give. I am able to get all channels OTA except NBC (very important) and PBS (can deal with this in SD although it would be nice).



The PBS station is probably giving you problems because it is so radically in a different direction from the others.


The stacked bowties don't do well above channel 50, especially the Winegard. That said, at 17 miles it should do the job. Have you made sure the aim is precise? With increased frequency, precise aiming becomes much more important. I'd fiddle with the aim, but if that doesn't work, you might have better luck with a yagi like the PR9022.


----------



## jayMD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The PBS station is probably giving you problems because it is so radically in a different direction from the others.
> 
> 
> The stacked bowties don't do well above channel 50, especially the Winegard. That said, at 17 miles it should do the job. Have you made sure the aim is precise? With increased frequency, precise aiming becomes much more important. I'd fiddle with the aim, but if that doesn't work, you might have better luck with a yagi like the PR9022.




Thank you for your quick response! Are there any tools to help with aiming the antenna (i.e. signal strength meters, etc.)? If so any suggestions? Also, would a amp/preamp help or hurt my situation (or any other tools)?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jayMD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I need some help! I appreciate any info anyone can give. I am able to get all channels OTA except NBC (very important) and PBS (can deal with this in SD although it would be nice). I believe that I currently have The Winegard PR-8800 8-Bay antenna. Please let me know if you have any suggestions. Thank you.



Is the antenna on the roof? (If not, consider moving it there.)

Did you aim the antenna while looking at the signal strength for NBC? (If not, do so. Your TV or set top box should have a built in display.)

There's no terrain in the way toward Earleigh Heights.

Are there buildings in the way? (If so, try relocating the antenna to miss them.)

To get PBS you'll need a rotator or another antenna aimed there and a way to add it to your other antenna. The best way is an antenna adder called a Jointenna. You'll need one tuned to channel 42.


Rotors are a hastle as they take time and won't interoperate well with a DVR.


----------



## jayMD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is the antenna on the roof? (If not, consider moving it there.)
> 
> Did you aim the antenna while looking at the signal strength for NBC? (If not, do so. Your TV or set top box should have a built in display.)
> 
> There's no terrain in the way toward Earleigh Heights.
> 
> Are there buildings in the way? (If so, try relocating the antenna to miss them.)
> 
> To get PBS you'll need a rotator or another antenna aimed there and a way to add it to your other antenna. The best way is an antenna adder called a Jointenna. You'll need one tuned to channel 42.
> 
> 
> Rotors are a hastle as they take time and won't interoperate well with a DVR.



Thank you for your help again. My antenna is attached to my D* dish on the roof. As far as I know there are no buildings in the way (residential neighborhood). I did not install the antenna, a D* installer did this work. I (obviously) am not knowledgable in this area so I am a little hesitant to try to move the antenna, but I may have to when it gets a little warmer. I was hoping maybe a pre-amp or amp might help (I could easily install this on my own). I tried a FM trap and that did not help.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jayMD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was hoping maybe a pre-amp or amp might help (I could easily install this on my own). I tried a FM trap and that did not help.



Preamps and amps are going to cause you serious problems - you're too close, and the signals are too strong. You'll just overload the amp, ruining reception.


Without knowing more about your problem, the only thing I can suggest is a variable attenuator from Radio Shack. It probably won't work, but it has a chance, and you can easily return it if it doesn't help.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rwantennasat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> wondering if you had an open view (no trees) when in attic but when raised you ran into some obstruction in the path. that would be more likley. or possibly a poor piece of coax? Also dont forget that anything but a FSM is just a relative reading Meters on STB's are not much only for reference. Here in Wny if the cust has an antenna and no rotor we take our fsm and try to max it out on the channels wanted. This does not always take into consideration Multipath problems. Its always best to consult with a EXPERIENCED antenna installer who knows your area. I can tell a person what they need just by asking them where they live. In some cases a multibay works best ,but many times we'll use a winegard yagi and get netter results.
> 
> Rich Wertman\\
> 
> R.W. antenna svce Inc



You hit the nail on the head. 6 ft made the difference inside, so DUH...why didn't i think it made a difference outside? This would have saved me trouble. Though it's my fault for telling him to blindly put it on the chimney, I was now thinking if he knew I had 80s on the inside, he in theory should have been trying to get the same 80s signal outside at least at some point in the rotation. But i'm not worried about blame now


I'm convinced I have a tunnel between the neighbors house and an unknown thing not in sight. (he said he saw nothing). So he simply must walk along the whole roof to find the best signal, I dont think there is another way to do it.


Also i did ask him what they use and he said he uses 8 bay winegards. Looks pretty much like the DB8 if i'm thinking right. His shop is on the other side of the county, even further from philly, so i'm pretty sure they are used to distance problems.


And as far as supplying my own antenna, i had it for months in the attic but now that i want fox, it has to go outside. heck i dont care how he does it, what he uses, as long as it works. period. Only requirement is no rotor.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A customer who furnishes his own antenna is not a valuable customer, because the installer makes less money on that job than on one in which he also sells the antenna. Don't be surprised of this installer declines to return, since he may be concerned that a dissatisfied customer might not want to pay for the return visit.



just for the record, he can do anything he wants (except mounting a 50ft tower lol) including put up his own antenna, i dont care


i just want the signals perfect! I'm not cheap but i expect the job done right. So next time i'll be sure to fully inform him of all the parameters i want.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BooniesTom* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Most of thread is lost on me, but this response sounds like it may relate to a problem I am having. I'm experimenting with a RS Accurian tuner, and cannot get it to give me a picture on any station. For any reasonably strong station, the tuner seems to "peg" at a signal strength of 49%, and I get no picture. I use a long distance roof antenna, with a CM0064 amplifier. Only one station in my area is HD, but it is a strong station. According to the Accurian, though, even that one is still a "49".
> 
> 
> I was assuming my RS tuner had some sort of defect until I saw your post. Any explanation you can offer for this 49% symptom, and how I might overcome it, would be greatly appreciated.



What I was referring to was how the Accurian reacts when you tune to an analog NTSC station. Since it only receives digital stations you get no picture and if the station is strong the meter reads a consistant 49. What you need to do is tune the digital station. One way to do that is to do an autoscan, the tuner will report the number of channels + subchannels that it finds. Another way is to key in the actual digital number the station broadcasts on. You can find that out by going to www.antennaweb.org and following the choose an antenna link. In the final output page where it lists all the stations the last column labelled frequency assignment will show the channel number the digital station is on. After the box tunes a station one of these two ways you should be able to select it using the old analog channel number which it will re-map internally to the digital number.


----------



## bt-rtp

What splitter/combiner provides very good performance and is of high quality ?


Are the Pico Macom's pretty good ? Are there any others that have tested well ?


I'm not interested in the $100 Lindsay unit -- yet










- bt-rtp


----------



## Noots

Big time newbie to this and I appreciate the responses I got from the couple of posts I put up here the other day.


I finally put the stealth bomber looking thing up last night. 20 miles from downtown, in the western chicago suburbs. It's on the main floor of my home, around 6 ft off the ground. Plenty of houses and trees between us and the city (I can't see the Chicago skyline from there, but between the antenna and the outside of my house is a huge set of sliding glass doors leading out to the deck/back yard. Stucco ceiling, however, which I hear can cause problems for some antennae. This thing has 10 or 12 antenna direction settings and 3 gain settings (maybe I'll figure out how to use them, LOL). I attached the coax from the antenna out of the 15-1892 to the antenna in of my D**TV receiver, go through the online menus in D**TV and voila! Loads of additional channels, dropped right into my program guide. I never even messed with the direction of the antenna or anything.


I'm extremely new to this, and know I can go back and check each individual channel to see the signal strength and tinker to optimize each per the antenna directional settings. As is, most of them came in crystal clear and well over 80, in fact, channel 9 WGN-TV which is important for me (Sox, Cubs, Bulls) was in the middle 90s. I must have missed the place to program in my zip code, which is probably why the program guide incorporated the channels where they belong but only says something like "regular program" or something next to the D**TV stuff...is that right, or is that all it's gonna say there?


Now, the Mrs sees it, and thinks we're being invaded. So I did a little test. I shoved it into the top shelf of the entertainment unit, which has a partially clear, partially frosted glass door on it...it still delivers crystal clear picture. I feel like the dad from Christmas Story when he gets his "major award."


Tonight I'm going to monkey around with different antenna direction settings and gain settings. I had it on only 1 for the gain last night. This thing also has presets, so I should be able to save the antenna settings for each channel, if it turns out I need to do that. However, seeing as how I'm really only going after either the John Hancock Bldg or Sears Tower, their location from me is in the same general direction and I'm figuring this is not likely to make much of a difference with each setting. We shall see...


Thanks again for all the help guys.


Noots

PS (figures, now that I have this set up, the Bears season is over)


----------



## newsposter

these changing readings will drive me nuts









Code:


Code:


ch      power
26      92
32      92
42      71-76
54      65-70
64      89-92
67      89-92

Maybe the wind 'knocked' it in place after all. Hopefully it storms more so I can see if it's stable


----------



## Rammitinski

Noots - that's good news to hear. Remember - the Winter Olympics are right around the corner! And then, I'm guessing that they'll be showing some of the World Baseball Classic tournament (with the Major Leaguers) in HD - then, it's on to hopefully another great White Sox season!


----------



## newsposter

I came across this wonderful document. Is a list of TV stations, their current digital and analog channels and the channel they have chosen to use for their digital broadcast when analog is turned off.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...-05-2649A2.pdf 


link corrected


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...-05-2649A2.pdf



Your link got truncated. Should be: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...-05-2649A2.pdf 


(In case that doesn't work...

edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-05-2649A2.pdf is the end of it.


----------



## Noots




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Noots - that's good news to hear. Remember - the Winter Olympics are right around the corner! And then, I'm guessing that they'll be showing some of the World Baseball Classic tournament (with the Major Leaguers) in HD - then, it's on to hopefully another great White Sox season!



Thanks. So I came home tonight connected up the antenna after putting it in the top cabinet of the ent. center and it's all g-to-g. The only thing I've really missed out on is the off air WBBM, because I cannot extend the antennae whilst it's in the ent. ctr. But that's not biggie, since it's only the one VHF channel, and D**TV delivers that one in HD just fine anyway.


So I went back into my menus and resolved the other questions I had in terms of

A. entering my zip code so I can have my program guide updated. Done.

B. reprogrammed my D**TV remote because the installation guy didn't bother to pgm the channel input so I could change from video 6 to whatever (less reliant on my actual tv remote)

C. Tinkered with my signal strengths vs gain and antenna direction. I believe it's set on channel 3, direction 7, gain 2 (no, I have no idea what it means, only that it works!). I'm extremely pleased with the results and the SS. I'm getting a SS of between 90 and 100 on all of the important chicago locals. I think the only one that's in the 80s is one of those odd channels like 20 or something like that.


Regarding the Olympics, someone told me that there might be some off air broadcasts that differ from the standard broadcasts, perhaps different events that you can only pick up via he antenna?


Noots


----------



## Rammitinski

Haven't heard anything on that yet. That would be nice. The channel you're probably getting the lower signal on, I'll bet, is 26. I get all the channels at 40 miles out (indoor antenna!) at about 85 - 90%, except that one (3, actually) at a little under 70%. But it's steady.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Noots* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Regarding the Olympics, someone told me that there might be some off air broadcasts that differ from the standard broadcasts, perhaps different events that you can only pick up via the antenna?
> 
> 
> Noots



Here is NBC Press Release that says NBC-HD will be simulcast of analog NBC:
http://www.nbcolympics.com/news/5083321/detail.html 

Some programs will not be in HD, even though they are on an HD channel...not enough HD Cameras to go around....


Here is the detailed event-by-event Olympic schedule, including which channel they are on:
http://www.nbccableinfo.com/insidenb...s/schedule.pdf 


and enter your zipcode into the NBC Olympic website for local channel info:
http://www.nbcolympics.com/index.html 


On 1Feb, Dish plans to activate ESPN2-HD and UNIV-HD....which may also be activation date for many cable systems...

So you're gonna need sat or cable and at LEAST one HD-DVR to keep up....

And replacement eyeballs...


----------



## fat2020

After reading and asking some questions about what antenna to get, I thought I would first try an indoor antenna before I get the Channel Master 4228. I got the silver sensor and was very happy that I got all the local DTV channels and more. I have the following questions:


1. A few channels has white speck the size of a pixel spread about 1 inch apart in the bottom half of the screen. What is the cause and how do I fix it?


2. Currently the RG6 cable from the silver sensor goes directly to my TV, but I also want the cable connected to my PC. Should I split the signal or should I get another silver sensor?


3. It seems I get all the channels that I need from the silver sensor except a few channels with white speck as I said above, do I still need the CM 4228? What other benefits will I get with CM4228?


Thanks in advance.


----------



## bt-rtp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fat2020* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> After reading and asking some questions about what antenna to get, I thought I would first try an indoor antenna before I get the Channel Master 4228. I got the silver sensor and was very happy that I got all the local DTV channels and more. I have the following questions:
> 
> 
> 1. A few channels has white speck the size of a pixel spread about 1 inch apart in the bottom half of the screen. What is the cause and how do I fix it?
> 
> 
> 2. Currently the RG6 cable from the silver sensor goes directly to my TV, but I also want the cable connected to my PC. Should I split the signal or should I get another silver sensor?
> 
> 
> 3. It seems I get all the channels that I need from the silver sensor except a few channels with white speck as I said above, do I still need the CM 4228? What other benefits will I get with CM4228?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance.



The white specks are due to the picture size adjustment being too small, the opposite of "overscan", you have a tiny bit of height underscan. The width might be too small as well, so get a test pattern and adjust both of them.


If you use differnet inputs such as component, DVI or HDMI, then a test pattern from each needs to be used to adjust the size. HDnet provides test patterns every Tuesday morning at 6:00 AM EST. You can record this if you like.


The proper amount of overscan to have varies but 4% to 5% seems to be what is working well for folks.


----------



## bt-rtp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fat2020* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> After reading and asking some questions about what antenna to get, I thought I would first try an indoor antenna before I get the Channel Master 4228. I got the silver sensor and was very happy that I got all the local DTV channels and more. I have the following questions:
> 
> 
> 1. A few channels has white speck the size of a pixel spread about 1 inch apart in the bottom half of the screen. What is the cause and how do I fix it?
> 
> 
> 2. Currently the RG6 cable from the silver sensor goes directly to my TV, but I also want the cable connected to my PC. Should I split the signal or should I get another silver sensor?
> 
> 
> 3. It seems I get all the channels that I need from the silver sensor except a few channels with white speck as I said above, do I still need the CM 4228? What other benefits will I get with CM4228?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance.



Try the 4221 first, it performs better in non-fringe applications.


Your gain from a Silver Sensor is likely fairly low, and it is not expensive, so it might be better to not use a splitter and just buy another.


However, if you go with a 4221, it might provide enough gain to compensate for the 3.5 to 4 db loss of the splitter.


----------



## toddbailey

What about more is better?


If one antenna is good, is the added gain of two worth the expense and bother?


----------



## Neil L

Well Todd...No. OK, well, sometimes. Usually not though. Two antennas don't give much additional gain, because you loose signal in the combiner. But it does narrow the beam width considerably, so in cases of severe multi-path, it could help.


The cable TV tower here has four different quad stacks! But that is beyond your average homeowner to install. Most of the time a single antenna is easier to install and will give the best performance overall, on a wide range on channels.


----------



## StephenMSmith

Holy crap, I just totally blew my mind! I got a free DirecTv H10 HDTV receiver a few days ago. I plugged it in just as a goof because:
I am 27.3 miles away from the Los Angeles HDTV broadcast towers
I am on the 5th floor of a 6 floor apartment complex
I am *completely* surrounded by 12 story condominium complexes about 20 feet away from my only windows
I can not see even a sliver of sky or terrain from my windows, only the sides of these 12 story buildings

Long story short: using a crappy Terk indoor HDTV antenna, I am getting all of the Los Angeles HDTV signals at @ 77% - 86% signal strength. WTF? Please tell me this is some sort of anomoly. Otherwise, I am the world's biggest idiot for just assuming HDTV wasn't possible for my current situation for the last 4 years...


----------



## bfoster

Welcome to one of the few benefits of multipath reflections. The signals are obviously finding your antenna by bouncing off of something!


----------



## KB9KXH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil Laffoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well Todd...No. OK, well, sometimes. Usually not though. Two antennas don't give much additional gain, because you loose signal in the combiner. But it does narrow the beam width considerably, so in cases of severe multi-path, it could help.
> 
> 
> The cable TV tower here has four different quad stacks! But that is beyond your average homeowner to install. Most of the time a single antenna is easier to install and will give the best performance overall, on a wide range on channels.



if you wanna learn about stacking antennas look into moonbounce and the antennas radio amateurs use to bounce their signals off the moon and back to earth. youll never be the same again


----------



## KB9KXH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *toddbailey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What about more is better?
> 
> 
> If one antenna is good, is the added gain of two worth the expense and bother?



stacked antennas can add considerably to the signal strength as long as you understand and follow the physics of spaceing and use good coupleing techniques. also you have to consider the added windload in your tower choice.


----------



## StephenMSmith

Well the sides of the buildings that surround me are mostly glass.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KB9KXH* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> if you wanna learn about stacking antennas look into moonbounce and the antennas radio amateurs use to bounce their signals off the moon and back to earth. youll never be the same again



Yeah, but we're talkin' TV here.


----------



## rothgar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rothgar* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well I bought the FusionHDTV5 gold plus card and I am still working with it but at the very least this card get amazing reception with QAM channels. I have any channel I could want through QAM. I could not get fox OTA yet but my antenna is not in it's usual spot. I will try a couple of things and post back.
> 
> 
> At the very least though, this card is much more reliable than the SIR-T451 and I can use multiple peices of software to try the OTA. Mediaportal seems to keep crashing and the fusion software is ok. I am going to try Got All Media and a couple others to see if that changes anything.



I have tested the FusionHDTV5 gold plus card a bit more and here is what I have found. With 3 different peices of software (beyondtv, Media portal, fusionHDTV) I still get the same OTA reception as I did with the SIR-T451. I can run signal checkers with some software and it still shows no reception with the card. Unfortunatly I do not think the SIR-T451 is to blame for not receiving VHF channels like I had originally thought.


the FusionHDTV5 card is better than the SIR-T451 for a few reasons:

1. channel scanning is much faster and you can manually add channels

2. the QAM support of the fusion card is amazing. The SIR-T451 has crap for QAM support even if it claims it supports it.

3. I can record shows in hd for the same price as just watching them (because I had a spare computer that I eisily put the card in and plugged into my tv). (recordings are HUGE. 1hr = 8gig)

4. you can choose your software so you can choose your UI. If you are going to use QAM then you have to use the FusionHDTV software but if all you are using is OTA then just about any free software will work.


overall I am very happy with my switch and can't wait for more support from free software. It also helps with the fact that the SIR-T451 is still selling on ebay for $130-$170 used. I was able to sell that box and spend very little money on the tuner card. Although if you don't have a decent computer to run the card then you will have to spend a bit more money.


All in all. I am very happy with the switch.


----------



## ctdish

Since you put this in the antennas thread, how about telling us how it works with an over the air antenna. John


----------



## firemantom26




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Your link got truncated. Should be: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...-05-2649A2.pdf
> 
> 
> (In case that doesn't work...
> 
> edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-05-2649A2.pdf is the end of it.




I thought I saw that they were in there second round of channel elections.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *StephenMSmith* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Holy crap, I just totally blew my mind! I got a free DirecTv H10 HDTV receiver a few days ago. I plugged it in just as a goof because:
> I am 27.3 miles away from the Los Angeles HDTV broadcast towers
> I am on the 5th floor of a 6 floor apartment complex
> I am *completely* surrounded by 12 story condominium complexes about 20 feet away from my only windows
> I can not see even a sliver of sky or terrain from my windows, only the sides of these 12 story buildings
> 
> Long story short: using a crappy Terk indoor HDTV antenna, I am getting all of the Los Angeles HDTV signals at @ 77% - 86% signal strength. WTF? Please tell me this is some sort of anomoly. Otherwise, I am the world's biggest idiot for just assuming HDTV wasn't possible for my current situation for the last 4 years...



Probably because it contains a more modern 4th (e.g. LST-4200A)

or possibly 5th generation ATSC Decoder chip

(e.g. LG in DVICO "5 Gold", LG in MPEG4 DirecTV H20, ATI Theater, Zoran)....


It would be of interest to know which manufacturer made your H10:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...er#post5083656


----------



## StephenMSmith

Samsung, according to the thread you linked.


----------



## holl_ands

I still haven't figured out which ATSC Decoder chip is inside which DirecTV Receiver.

And they probably have tamper-proof seals....


But you may find the fol. laboratory test results of interest:
http://www.crc.ca/en/html/crc/home/r...broadcast/rtnt 


The Aug2005 test results for the Samsung is for their so-called "GEMINI"chip.....blows the others away....

Hmmm, I wonder if it's in the H10-200???


The Sep2003 test results for the Zenith PROTOTYPE was probably a precursor to

LG's production 4th (e.g. LST-4200A) and subsequent 5th Gen chips.

The Mar2003 and earlier test results for the LINX (now Micronas) PROTOTYPE was for the mysterious

"CASPER" chip....which may or may not have ever gone into production....


Unfortunately, no test results for Broadcom, Zoran/Orem and ATI (by far the biggest supplier).


----------



## Merten

I've used the amplified antenna from Radio Shack and its worthless. The simple $8.99 rabbit ears work just as well.


----------



## TVSaurus

I've got a major problem with my two antennas (4221 & 4228). I've been out-of-town the last three days and during that time had several things set to record on my HD10-250 with the last being 9pm friday night. Upon getting home late saturday night I found that my Tivo nor TV antenna input will show only 1 of my 5 or 6 HD channels. Some being the newbie that I am I'm attempting to eliminate what may be problem.


First off, the closest local that I get comes in around 95% on the 4221 on a good day. Right now that same signal shows 92% using the D* Tivo signal meter. However, the meter shows the frequency assisgnment, channel number but not the call-sign as it has in the past. When I tune to the channel I get nothing! If the TV were not able to receive a station then it would say "weak signal" on a blank screen. In this situation I get a blank screen but not the message. So I think to myself, that the station must be off the air or something. So I go to another station that is distance which I use the 4228 for. I normally would signals strenths in the 70% range here but now they are very low and do not pickup at all. If I attempt to tune the station on the TV I get the "weak signal" message. I've elimated all splitter, amp and readjusted the pole and no change in results.


Here is the kicker....late friday night early saturday morning we had a bad thunderstorm come through that I was told about upon returning home. Could lightening done some sort of damage? What makes it hard to track down is the fact that I get the same results using the Tivo receiver and the built-in TV receiver. Any suggestions on how to troubleshoot?


The local signal appearing in the 92% range but yet not showing has just about assured me that something weird is going on.


Any help is greatly appreciated.


Here is how I've got everything setup post a few pages back. link


----------



## rothgar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Since you put this in the antennas thread, how about telling us how it works with an over the air antenna. John



the card seems to be about the same as the samsung box. The amount of stuff I have control over now was worth the switch. I can check signal with more than one piece of software, I can try different configurations and drivers for better results, etc.


I didn't notice anything profoundly different with the OTA signal though.


----------



## Neil L

Still, not one word about antennas!?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The Aug2005 test results for the Samsung is for their so-called "GEMINI"chip.....blows the others away....
> 
> Hmmm, I wonder if it's in the H10-200???



Since it was a prototype, I doubt it's in any receiver yet. If it was, we'd all be raving about it. I know I want one for its signal sensitivity.


----------



## kurtlingle

I recently bought the Sony 42 LCD (A10) - 5 days old. I'm using an antenna (OTA) for HD and the Pitt vs Denver game was incredible. But the FOX game, Seatle vs Car was good but not as good. What I mean is this, the FXO logo, the line with the score, time, etc was not sharp, but sort of edgy?


I ran diagnostics and found that all my OTA signals are 95-98 % except for FOX, which is 81-84%. I would have thought that would be fine, and would not affect the letters on the score/time line.


My understanding, was that OTA HD would either be there or not, and not affect PQ? Again, the players looked pretty good, and some words looked great (like the super-imposed 1st and 10 they place on the field once it a while).


Any OTA'ers out there have any comments?


Oh, I never watch hockey, but the flyers game on Sat afternoon (NBC I think) was unbelievable also!


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVSaurus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've got a major problem with my two antennas (4221 & 4228). I've been out-of-town the last three days and during that time had several things set to record on my HD10-250 with the last being 9pm friday night. Upon getting home late saturday night I found that my Tivo nor TV antenna input will show only 1 of my 5 or 6 HD channels. Some being the newbie that I am I'm attempting to eliminate what may be problem.
> 
> 
> First off, the closest local that I get comes in around 95% on the 4221 on a good day. Right now that same signal shows 92% using the D* Tivo signal meter. However, the meter shows the frequency assisgnment, channel number but not the call-sign as it has in the past. When I tune to the channel I get nothing! If the TV were not able to receive a station then it would say "weak signal" on a blank screen. In this situation I get a blank screen but not the message. So I think to myself, that the station must be off the air or something. So I go to another station that is distance which I use the 4228 for. I normally would signals strenths in the 70% range here but now they are very low and do not pickup at all. If I attempt to tune the station on the TV I get the "weak signal" message. I've elimated all splitter, amp and readjusted the pole and no change in results.
> 
> 
> Here is the kicker....late friday night early saturday morning we had a bad thunderstorm come through that I was told about upon returning home. Could lightening done some sort of damage? What makes it hard to track down is the fact that I get the same results using the Tivo receiver and the built-in TV receiver. Any suggestions on how to troubleshoot?
> 
> 
> The local signal appearing in the 92% range but yet not showing has just about assured me that something weird is going on.
> 
> 
> Any help is greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> Here is how I've got everything setup post a few pages back. link



It sounds like you have a combination of a weak signal on most stations with some form of glitch on the strong one the Tivo refuses to receive with a good meter reading. You could try reseting the receivers plus doing a new full autoscan for stations. To check the antenna see how the analog stations are coming in. I would also post in your local thread to see if anyone else has had similar problems since the storm. In CT the local Fox affiliate WTIC sometimes goofs up the PSIP info which causes many receivers to show a blank picture with a good signal reading.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kurtlingle* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I recently bought the Sony 42 LCD (A10) - 5 days old. I'm using an antenna (OTA) for HD and the Pitt vs Denver game was incredible. But the FOX game, Seatle vs Car was good but not as good. What I mean is this, the FXO logo, the line with the score, time, etc was not sharp, but sort of edgy?



CBS and NBC use 1080i, which has higher detail that Fox and ABC's 720p. Many have commented that Fox's picture quality is the worst of the bunch. I find the difference to be very obvious.


It's not your received signal strength that is the problem. It's the source.


----------



## A2D

Question:


I am about to purchase a 4228 for ABC which is about 60 miles away. I am currently placing a silver sensor on the 3rd floor balcony. I can receive CBS and NBS at 100% signal strength and Fox at 70%. All three stations are 30 miles away. I have no signal whatsoever on ABC (35) no matter how do I point the silver sensor.

I know 4228 will help, however, will it be realistic to improve from nothing to watchable (65%) by replacing silver sensor with 4228?

BTW, I know some folks on the other side of the town can receive ABC at 95% with 4228 mounted on mast.


----------



## Eben

I have an Antennas Direct 42XG mounted outside on my sundeck. I live in Fairfax City, Va. (22030) and want to receive NBC, Fox, ABC, CBS, WETA, and WB50 OTA (that's 4, 5, 7, 9, 26, and 50 -- I'd love to get UPN20 but it's signal is too low for now). My AntennaWeb results:


Call Sign Channel Network City Compass Distance Frequency


WRC-DT 4.1 NBC DC 73° 13.8 48

WTTG-DT 5.1 FOX DC 69° 14.3 36

WJLA-DT 7.1 ABC DC 71° 14.2 39

WUSA-DT 9.1 CBS DC 71° 14.2 34

WMPT-DT 22.1 PBS ANNAPOLIS 83° 39.3 42

WETA-DT 26.1 PBS DC 83° 10.1 27

WBDC-DT 50.1 WB DC 73° 17.1 51


Aiming the antenna at approximately 72° I get steady signals on all of the above channels except Fox. That's right, I get a steady, usable signal from WMPT -- nearly 40 miles away! Yet Fox, though it peaks in the mid-80s on the meter of my H10-250 DirecTV HD sat/OTA receiver, it frequently drops so low the signal loses lock. I get macroblocking and loss of sound and picture. My coax run is about 150 ft. and I'm using AntennaDirect's PA-16 preamp.

The compass orientation of ~72° was chosen because that's where Fox seems to be the steadiest (yet I still get dropouts).

Any ideas? Would a different antenna help? Different amp?

TIA,

Eben


----------



## AntAltMike

The Fox 36 signal is screwey. Even when my spectrum analyzer shows it to be a few dB stronger than 34 and 39, it usually produces lower "signal strength" numbers as calculated by residential receiver's signal strength meters. Last I knew, it was eliptically polarized, but no one here has ever offered any kind of cogent theory of how that may be beneficial or how one may take advantage of that unusual propagation pattern.


You might as well try Channel Master 4228, 8 bay bowtie. It is inexpensive and sometimes does the trick.


----------



## ctdish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A2D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Question:
> 
> 
> I am about to purchase a 4228 for ABC which is about 60 miles away. I am currently placing a silver sensor on the 3rd floor balcony. I can receive CBS and NBS at 100% signal strength and Fox at 70%. All three stations are 30 miles away. I have no signal whatsoever on ABC (35) no matter how do I point the silver sensor.
> 
> I know 4228 will help, however, will it be realistic to improve from nothing to watchable (65%) by replacing silver sensor with 4228?
> 
> BTW, I know some folks on the other side of the town can receive ABC at 95% with 4228 mounted on mast.



Probably not but maybe. It is like realestate it all depends on location. Where I live in CT not a chance, but possible in S Cal. Find your local thread and see how others are doing. John


----------



## Eben




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You might as well try Channel Master 4228, 8 bay bowtie. It is inexpensive and sometimes does the trick.



Who sells this in the D.C. area?


----------



## markbean

I bought a DB2 and will be mounting it in my attic/crawl space of my two floor condo. So far I have only propped the antenna up against a 2x4 in the very near to the entrance to the attic. I am an end unit on the side closest to where I need to aim the antenna to receive a signal. So far my reception has been fair with only some fade-outs and lacking only one non-important channel. I will be mounting the antenna on a mast (Radio Shack Model: 15-882) but before doing so I wanted to know how important positioning is. My original plan is to mount the mast and antenna where the antenna is currently propped up. This is about 20' from the roofline. Should I see a benefit in mounting the antenna closer to the roofline even if there are only a few 2x4s in the way?


Thanks in advance!


----------



## newsposter

Mark definitely play around a bit first. In my attic, 6 inches made the difference between unsteady 70s and high 80s signal wise and the DB8 was literally up against the roof and couldn't be moved an inch. But sometimes horizontal is important too. it's honestly different for every single person. So have a temp placement method (post, pipe, etc) and go around and see what's best for you. Heck I had a pole and then tapped in some nails on the rafters and would go around hanging it in different spots using the hole in the pole to hang it by


wish it was a perfect science but it's not.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Eben* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Who sells this in the D.C. area?



Mark Electronics in Beltsville. About two miles north of exit 25 on I-95. They are open at least untl noon on Saturdays. But I'm not sure they would take it back if you don't like it, because they are more of a commercial supplier than a retailer.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A2D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Question:
> 
> 
> I am about to purchase a 4228 for ABC which is about 60 miles away. I am currently placing a silver sensor on the 3rd floor balcony. I can receive CBS and NBS at 100% signal strength and Fox at 70%. All three stations are 30 miles away. I have no signal whatsoever on ABC (35) no matter how do I point the silver sensor.
> 
> I know 4228 will help, however, will it be realistic to improve from nothing to watchable (65%) by replacing silver sensor with 4228?
> 
> BTW, I know some folks on the other side of the town can receive ABC at 95% with 4228 mounted on mast.



What channel is your ABC affiliate broadcasting on? Better yet, your zip code can help someone diagnose your situation.


A 4228 is an excellent UHF only antenna. It turns out that a 4228 does pretty well as a VHF antenna on channel 10, but not so well on other VHF channels. The measurements were posted at:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


The same tests indicate that a Channel Master 3671B would work better on most VHF channels than the 4228.


Silver Sensors are very poor for VHF reception.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVSaurus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've got a major problem with my two antennas (4221 & 4228).
> 
> 
> Any help is greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> Here is how I've got everything setup post a few pages back. link



Put that 4221 on the roof and get the proper jointennas.


----------



## newsposter

Tiny update on my DB8 antenna saga for anyone following along. After the guy trying every foot or so on the length of my roof, and even a higher roof, I settled on the original spot over the place in the attic where i got great numbers. I'm definitely shooting between a house and an unseen object in the distance. The installer was pretty flabbergasted how just a foot made a huge difference.


So now that I was 6ft away from the chimney, using a tripod and 5 ft pole instead of a 10ft on the chimney, I'm pretty confident the high winds wont bug this mount again. CH 64/67 are in the 80s. Ch42 is a solid 71. Wb 54 is a somewhat solid 68. Of course cbs/upn are 90 since they are in the lower UHF.


In my case, higher wasn't always better. A foot horizontally made the difference between 10-15 on the signal meter. I spend 400 in labor etc getting it this far so hope they kill ch 54 and move the programs down to 32. Then I'd be set. Or if they even put CW on directv I'd be ok if the signal was as good as OTA (not likely though)


----------



## A2D




Tower Guy said:


> What channel is your ABC affiliate broadcasting on? Better yet, your zip code can help someone diagnose your situation.
> 
> 
> I think it is on channel 34. My zip code is 24060. Thanks.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...so hope they kill ch 54 and move the programs down to 32.



Channels above 51 are not in the digital core spectrum and will not be available for television broadcasting after the analog shutdown.


----------



## bt-rtp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Channels above 51 are not in the digital core spectrum and will not be available for television broadcasting after the analog shutdown.



That is a good thing since most of the common UHF antannas that people are using do not perform well above the mid 50's channels anyway.


I hate those orange, triple-beam, yagi, euro-trash antennas.


----------



## Tower Guy




A2D said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What channel is your ABC affiliate broadcasting on? Better yet, your zip code can help someone diagnose your situation.
> 
> 
> I think it is on channel 34. My zip code is 24060. Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is significant terrain between you and both Lynchburg, VA and Winston-Salen, NC. If DTV reception can work at all, the 4228 is the right antenna to try. I'd aim toward whichever ABC station is not blocked from your balcony.
> 
> 
> Be careful with a preamp, the local stations are only 15 miles away and could overload it. Your short feedline minimizes most of the advantages of a preamp.
Click to expand...


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Channels above 51 are not in the digital core spectrum and will not be available for television broadcasting after the analog shutdown.



Yup, I even posted that fcc chart a bit ago showing assignments, but was talking short term like the end of this year. WB is iffy now for me but upn is great power.


----------



## dlbeck

Please help. Quick question.


I am about 15 miles away from the TV stations and live in a flat area with no obstacles. However, I have to put my antenna in the attic.


Also, I was looking at antennaweb.org and they recommend a medium-directional antenna. All the transmitters in Des Moines are located in the same place +/- 2 degrees.


Just need to know which antenna to buy. Please help.


Thanks.


----------



## Neil L

dlbeck,

A CM 4221 should work nicely, if all your channels are UHF.


----------



## dlbeck

Yes, all my channels are UHF. Thanks.


----------



## The GAT




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BovineD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> RCA ANT301 (Cant post links yet I guess...)
> 
> 
> Avoid this stinker. I was barely able to get 40-50 signal strength on the closest towers and the signal was unwatchable. Returned unit



FWIW, I am using this antenna right now, and it works great. I live in Fremont, CA and picked it up at Walgreens for $19.99. I just got the Zenith Silver Sensor today from Amazon, and it was working great, but I accidently broke it when I was moving it around. Luckily I had picked up the ANT301 the other day and when I plugged it in it worked without a hitch and I can pick up most stations really well. I have to rotate the knob to get KGO (ABC) to come in, but other than that, it's picks up almost everything else in the area without a problem. The one station that is problematic is KTEH, the PBS station in San Jose.


----------



## A2D




Tower Guy said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A2D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> There is significant terrain between you and both Lynchburg, VA and Winston-Salen, NC. If DTV reception can work at all, the 4228 is the right antenna to try. I'd aim toward whichever ABC station is not blocked from your balcony.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I pulled trigger and ordered 4228.
> 
> I did some homework last night, driving my car with computers on it. I found that a open space only about 300 yards from my building. When I pointed the silver sensor to the right direction, I can get over 90% on Fox and 50-60% on ABC. My balcony is face south. When I placed silver sensor at east (105 degree), I can receive fox at 75%. The ABC is at 89 degree, so basically I need to place the antenna facing one side of the wall. If I can get fox to over 95% with 4228, I might have a shot to get ABC about 65%.
Click to expand...


----------



## newsposter

for those contemplating/having problems with the 4228. When the installer was here trying to aim my db8, it was tedious because of my topography. When we found what was the best spot, he began asking about the antenna and I told him where i got it. He said he'd like to try one of his antennas instead and i said fine, it may work better and if so, i'd buy it.


I didn't ask what it was but it was the spittin image of the 4228 ("solid" with no joiner like the db8 has). In the exact same position on the tripod as the db8 it did worse. Not a huge amount but I needed every drop of signal and the db8 obviously got it for me. So to those that need to eek out every last bar of strength on your meter because of difficult conditions, the db8 may be what you need even though it does cost 2x as much.


----------



## Alan Gordon

I currently use a Channel Master 4228 antenna hooked up to a Channel Master 7777 Pre-Amp. The inside power source for the CM7777 Pre-Amp only has one out, and I'd like to get something that outputs at least four cables.


Can I just pick up a Channel Master Amplifier with four outputs at Lowes, or do I need to pick up a special hook-up to go with the CM7777, or do I just need to make sure that the amps have the same power specifications so I don't fry my CM7777?!


Thanks!

~Alan


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Alan Gordon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I currently use a Channel Master 4228 antenna hooked up to a Channel Master 7777 Pre-Amp. The inside power source for the CM7777 Pre-Amp only has one out, and I'd like to get something that outputs at least four cables.
> 
> 
> Can I just pick up a Channel Master Amplifier with four outputs at Lowes, or do I need to pick up a special hook-up to go with the CM7777, or do I just need to make sure that the amps have the same power specifications so I don't fry my CM7777?!
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> ~Alan



What you need is a 4-Way Power Splitter:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 


You should also be able to find them at Lowes, Circuit City, Best Buy, et. al.


The output of the C-M Power Insertion Module feeds the input of the Splitter and then you have four outputs to distribute...


----------



## slapshot

I'm in the Chicago area (sw subs,about 38 miles out) and decided to get the ChannelMaster 3020. It's a pretty huge antenna,is this overkill in this area? I'm in a new subdivision,no tall trees or buildings,with a two story house. Am also giving it thought to putting it in the attic and seeing how it performs there first.


Also,will running it through my 4x8 multiswitch by means of diplexing it through one of the LNB feeds first and sending it on it's way a good idea? Or should I get a 5x8 and run a new line to it with no diplexors except whatever tv needs one?


----------



## Noots

I'm a newbie, but live in the western burbs as well (around I-355 and Lake Street/Route 20) and had really great luck with a radio shack amplified antenna that I have stowed in the entertainment cabinet next to the TV, on the ground floor.


Alot of what I've read from these boards is "more is better," so I imagine you'll be golden. It seems people tend to have more issues when they're really close to the source of the signal, or really very far (lots further away than you are). From where you are, you should be able to point that baby between the Sears Tower and the John Hancock (which from that distance, visually looks like what, the space between your thumb and pinky finger?) and get a really strong signal.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *slapshot* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm in the Chicago area (sw subs,about 38 miles out) and decided to get the ChannelMaster 3020. It's a pretty huge antenna,is this overkill in this area? I'm in a new subdivision,no tall trees or buildings,with a two story house. Am also giving it thought to putting it in the attic and seeing how it performs there first.
> 
> 
> Also,will running it through my 4x8 multiswitch by means of diplexing it through one of the LNB feeds first and sending it on it's way a good idea? Or should I get a 5x8 and run a new line to it with no diplexors except whatever tv needs one?



It's always better to run it on a separate line if you have the choice.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It's always better to run it on a separate line if you have the choice.



Especially for directv users that want the new 5lnb dish that you can't diplex


----------



## slapshot




> Quote:
> Especially for directv users that want the new 5lnb dish that you can't diplex



Any reason I should get that new dish? I didn't think there was,thats why I'm putting up that bad boy.

I'm thinking the OTA signals will be better (marginally) than MPEG4. Besides D*TV doesn't carry all the local channels.

Also can't use my HDTivo either with the new dish (for HD locals)


----------



## Alan Gordon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What you need is a 4-Way Power Splitter:
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search
> 
> 
> You should also be able to find them at Lowes, Circuit City, Best Buy, et. al.
> 
> 
> The output of the C-M Power Insertion Module feeds the input of the Splitter and then you have four outputs to distribute...



I purchased the one from the top link. However, when I hook it up, my signal on my local FOX affiliate's digital signal drops down from upper 80s to 50-70 range (depending on when you look at it), and my NBC affiliate's signal goes from 70 to 40. Also, one of the other feeds an analog tuner, and I can't pick up several channels that I can get just great if I hook it up direct.


Please advise... thanks!


~Alan


----------



## hdtvluvr

Re: Coax ground


I am going to mount my new antenna on a telesocpic mast. This mast will be mounted to the side of my house and actually standing on my concrete patio. The point of entry of the coax will be into the attic. I will be grounding the mast properly. My question is whether it would be best to mount the coax grounding block to the mast (12 in. from attic entry) which would self ground due to attachment or mount it on the side of the house and run a ground wire. If I can't put it on the mast, can I mount it on the house and run a ground wire to the mast? I just don't really see the point of running 2 separate wires to the grounding rod.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *slapshot* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Any reason I should get that new dish? I didn't think there was,thats why I'm putting up that bad boy.
> 
> I'm thinking the OTA signals will be better (marginally) than MPEG4. Besides D*TV doesn't carry all the local channels.
> 
> Also can't use my HDTivo either with the new dish (for HD locals)



First off you can use the 5lnb dish with HDtivo and it will work exactly as always with the old dish but of course you are right that you can't get mpeg4 locals


A reason to get the new dish is if you can't get certain of the big 4 ota. I was almost ready to go to cable because fox (and wb actually) was hard to get in for me but resolved that issue. So now that fox is ok, i dont need to even get the new dvr when it comes out. If you get everything you need OTA, there simply is no reason to go to mpeg4 at this moment. Now if they ever start rolling out mpeg4 HD networks like sci fi etc (HA, let me stop right there because that wont happen)


Are mpeg4 worse than ota? Glad you asked! Recently i've been racking everyone's brain on that issue. The best answers other people have given me so far are:

START QUOTE

-------------

Well, unless DirecTV is getting the raw SDI datastream from the OTA station (unlikely), what DirecTV is actually doing in recompressing an already compressed picture.


If DirecTV is getting the same MPEG2 stream from the OTA station that we can pick up with our OTA antenna, it would be impossible for any signal sent by DirecTV to us over the satellite, whether further encoded with MPEG2 or reencoded with MPEG4 to look as good as the original OTA signal.


Further lossy compressing an already lossy compressed signal always looks worse than the original lossy compressed signal regardless of the secondary lossy compression method used.

------------


I cant compare the HD DVRs.. but i can tell you that as a technology, a 15-18mb/s MPEG 2 picture is better - by far - than a 10mb/s H.264 MPEG4 picture - at least on the encoders ive used..


When viewed on the large (7') screen, everyone i showed it to could see the difference. MPEG2 was clearly the 'better picture'


MPEG4 is 'damn good' considering it is almost 1/2 the bandwidth.. but for overall picture quality a high b/w MPEG2 source is better.. most of the encoder videophiles agree that high b/w mpeg2 is better than mid b/w MPEG4.. however, bit for bit.. MPEG4 will be better (eg. you cant compare a 10mb/s MPEG2 and MPEG4 source.. mpeg2 is only better at higher bit rates).

--------------------------


it is possible that the re-compressed signal will be only negligibly worse, that is, that the difference won't be noticeable. As an analogy, if you open a JPEG compressed image and edit it and then re-save it, in theory you've lost some quality, but in practice you often won't see a difference unless you do it many times. Some are reporting that they don't see a difference between the re-compressed DirecTV signal and OTA.


---------------------END QUOTE


So therefore I must conclude, after people's answers above, that while I may not be able to tell the difference, mpeg4 pretty much cannot be better than what we get OTA because 'something' is done to it between the TV station and our dishes, where as nothing except a tree is between us and a TV tower










If a person went from mpeg2 to mpeg4 without seeing OTA, I"m sure they would be thrilled. (me included) That's how I like to think of it. But I have no pixels or audio problems since my OTA was perfected tuesday morning and i do hear of problems with the new HR20 receivers so I'm quite happy with OTA and my expensive HDtivo unit for the forseeable future.


----------



## greywolf

I would mount it on the mast. It's a nice, neat installation. What you are missing though is the mast must be connected to the main building ground with a 6ga copper bonding wire. Any grounding point, secondary rod, mast in concrete, etc., must be bonded to the main building ground by code. An effectively single point grounding system must be maintained.


----------



## hdtvluvr

greywolf,


I will ground the mast to a grounding rod about 15 ft. away from the mast and also connect this rod to the house main ground about an additional 40 ft. away.


Thanks!


----------



## longrider

Thank you for that long post, it confirms the way I have been leaning. I am putting my money into a good antenna setup and leaving the D* just the way it is. CBS is still questionable but D* gives me CBS2 out of LA (in mpeg2) so I am covered there.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *longrider* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thank you for that long post, ...



_"I have written you a long letter because I do not have time to write you a short

one.'_


Blaise Paschal


----------



## Keenan

From TV Technology,

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...5-f_doug.shtml 

TVTechnology - RF Technology


Crazy Enough to Build Your Own TV Antenna?


This month, I'll take another look at receive antennas for DTV. My article "Antennas for DTV Reception" in the March 6, 2002 column on antennas for DTV reception was published almost four years ago, yet hardly a week goes by that I don't get a request for Fig. 1, which shows the dimensions for a do-it-yourself UHF TV rhombic antenna. The article is available at www.tvtechnology.com in the Doug Lung on RF section. I've reprinted Fig. 1 here. Refer to the original article for information on how TV antennas work and suggestions for building your own.










Although I've received many requests for Fig. 1, I haven't received as many reports on how the antenna worked. I guess some readers found the size of the elements made construction more difficult than they thought or they built the antenna and weren't happy with the performance. As noted in the article, a rhombic that's five wavelengths on a side (about 100 inches at 600 MHz) will provide a predicted gain of approximately 12 dB. You will see later that smaller commercial TV antennas provide gains close to or greater than this.


RHOMBIC ANTENNAS


If you want to build a huge VHF TV antenna, an article from 1951 by Richard J. Buchan may be helpful, (See http://members.fortunecity.com/wtfdamem/Rhombic1.html ). The antennas described are much bigger than the one I referred to. Buchan describes how a three-bay rhombic can be constructed with gain of more than 100 (20 dB). He notes that even though rhombic antennas are broadband, separate antennas will be needed for low VHF and high VHF, although the high-VHF rhombic can be strung inside the low-VHF rhombic using the same supports.


The article gives construction details, including a parts list, mast construction hints, dimensions and drawings for single bay and two bay antennas. If you want distant VHF-TV reception in a single direction and have the real estate, check it out!


A "Dual Rhomboid" antenna developed by Edmund Laport of RCA was modeled by L.B. Cebik and determined to have gains between 15 and 16 dB at 1296 MHz. This design should be able to be scaled for use at TV frequencies, (See http://www.cebik.com/vhf/rh.html l). In researching this article, I found what must be the ultimate UHF rhombic antenna, if it works as claimed. The Sveriges DX-Frbund Web site ( http://www.sdxf.org/alfa/dxinfo/Antenna%20Articles.pdf ), has a 60-page article on antennas. On p. 35, there is a description of DHR (dual hexamerous rhombic) antenna designed for the 430 MHz band. It should work well at UHF frequencies. The calculated gain of the 2x6 rhomboid antenna is 33 dB! Unfortunately, author Wayne Sarosi said details would be provided in a future posting, but I haven't been able to find it. If anyone can provide details on the DHR antenna, please e-mail me and I'll share the information.


Broadcast engineer Jeremy Lansman at KYES in Alaska has put together an excellent Web page titled "About TV and FM Antennas" at http://kyes.info/antenna/antennadex.html . The page contains links to articles on how TV antennas work, common TV and FM antenna types, and, of relevance to this article, a section devoted to building your own TV or FM antenna.


PRO PERFORMANCE


In my Dec. 14 RF Report (available at http://www.tvtechnology.com/dlrf/issue.php?w=2005-12-14 ), I reported that in the FCC's report to congress on the DTV field strength standards and test procedures for the Satellite Home Viewer Extension and Reauthorization Act of 2005, the commission found no specific changes are needed to the DTV field strength standards and/or planning factors.


The comments filed by the ABC, CBS and NBC affiliate associations in the proceeding included an exhibit by consulting engineer Jules Cohen with a survey of available TV receive antennas and amplifiers. In the report, the FCC cited this survey to show there are antennas currently available that meet or exceed the planning factor criteria. It should be useful if you decide to buy rather than build your own antenna. The affiliate associations' filing can be downloaded using the at http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/ 


comsrch_v2.cgi. Enter 05-182 in the "Proceeding" box and scroll through the listings.


FCC DTV planning factors are based on antenna gains of 4 dB, 6 dB and 10 dB for low-VHF (Channels 2-6), high-VHF (7-13) and UHF (14-69) respectively. Kerry Cozad of Dielectric measured the Channel Master Model 4228 eight-bay bowtie-with-screen UHF antenna and measured gains of approximately 3 dB, 9 dB and 15 dB for low-VHF, high-VHF and UHF. This UHF-only antenna exceeds the planning factor gain at both high-VHF and UHF!


For VHF-only reception, the Antennacraft Model CS1100 claims an average low-VHF gain of 6.9 dB and an average high-VHF gain of 9.6 dB. The Channel Master Model 3610 doesn't do as well at low-VHF, with an average gain of 5.8, but provides a claimed average gain of 11.4 dB at high-VHF channels. While combined UHF and VHF antennas usually do not work as well as separate antennas, the Winegard Model HD7084P specifications show gains from 6.2 to 7.6 dB at low VHF, 10.8 to 12.0 at high VHF and 14.6 dB in the UHF band.


In a table in his exhibit, Jules Cohen shows that if a low-noise amplifier is used at the antenna, reducing the system noise figure to 4 dB, the media noise limited field intensity for DTV reception drops to 19.8 dBµ at low-VHF, 25.8 dBµ at high-VHF and 34.2 dBµ at UHF, based on receiving antenna gains of 6 dB at low-VHF, 10 dB at high-VHF and 12 dB at UHF.


In addition, CEA has an excellent Web site, AntennaWeb.org that allows you to see what TV stations are available at a specific address and what size antenna is required to receive them.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Alan Gordon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I purchased the one from the top link. However, when I hook it up, my signal on my local FOX affiliate's digital signal drops down from upper 80s to 50-70 range (depending on when you look at it), and my NBC affiliate's signal goes from 70 to 40. Also, one of the other feeds an analog tuner, and I can't pick up several channels that I can get just great if I hook it up direct.
> 
> 
> Please advise... thanks!
> 
> 
> ~Alan



In your earlier posts, I see that you also have a Dish system.


First of all, are you using a simple connection on its own downlead (e.g. antenna-balun-preamp-downlead-powermodule-RFSplitter-HDTV etal)?

The power insertion module must be able to supply D.C. power to the Preamp, without any D.C. blocking RF Splitters or Diplexers in the way.


If it is a shared SAT/TV downlead, can you descibe all of the components?

Pay close attention to which port(s) on the SAT/TV Diplexers are marked as being "DC PASS".

The SAT Receiver provides DC power to the Dish via the "DC PASS" ports.


Great care must be taken if you are using both a SAT Receiver and a Preamp, to make sure that they are not shorting each other out.


===============================================

If you are using SAT/TV Diplexers at each end, temporarily try it with the SAT system removed from the downlead.

You can use some in-line coax connectors to bypass both Diplexers.


This will tell you if the SAT system is adversely affecting your TV system.


====================================================

A CM-7777 should have more than enough gain to drive a downlead (maybe 4-6 dB loss) and 4-way splitter (8 dB loss on each leg).

The overall loss of sensitivity due to downlead/Splitter loss is reduced by the amount of gain in the Preamp and hence should only be on the order of a dB or so.


However, you could use a 2-way splitter with one output feeding your HDTV and the other output feeding the 4-way splitter.

This would result in only 4 dB loss for the HDTV at the expense of 12 dB loss for the other components.


You may not like the results for the other TV's, but it does provide one more data point re how critical the splitter loss may be.


====================================================

You may be thinking of adding a Distribution Amplifier to boost the gain on top of the CM7777's already ample gain.

However, this could easily result in overloading the input of the HDTV's and TV's,

unless you are quite a ways from all transmitters.


It would help if you could provide your location to whatever accuracy you feel comfortable with:

zipcode and/or nearby cross streets (+/- a few miles is fine).


----------



## Todd72

Are you pulling ABC from Lynchburg? I'm in Blacksburg and AntennaWeb doesn't show DTV out of Roanoke, nor do I get anything from that direction. I get the rest very nicely though.




A2D said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I pulled trigger and ordered 4228.
> 
> I did some homework last night, driving my car with computers on it. I found that a open space only about 300 yards from my building. When I pointed the silver sensor to the right direction, I can get over 90% on Fox and 50-60% on ABC. My balcony is face south. When I placed silver sensor at east (105 degree), I can receive fox at 75%. The ABC is at 89 degree, so basically I need to place the antenna facing one side of the wall. If I can get fox to over 95% with 4228, I might have a shot to get ABC about 65%.
Click to expand...


----------



## NeezyDeezy

I just got a HDTV tuner, and I'm having problems with the included silver sensor. All I can get to play smoothly is FOX. It's odd, because I am 3-4 miles from the towers. I moved it around all over my room, but I can only get 50-70% of the other ones. I really just want HD PBS and UPN. My zip code is 35213. What should I do? Thanks!


----------



## A2D




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Todd72* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are you pulling ABC from Lynchburg? I'm in Blacksburg and AntennaWeb doesn't show DTV out of Roanoke, nor do I get anything from that direction. I get the rest very nicely though.



Yup, it is channel 13.1 (34) from Lynchburg. I live in the south side of the town. The only problem for me is that my balcony is facing south at 180 while ABC is from east at 89 degree as well as several buildings between mine and the open space. Some folks at North Main reported receiving ABC using 4228 very well. I guess it depends on the location and antenna.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NeezyDeezy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just got a HDTV tuner, and I'm having problems with the included silver sensor. All I can get to play smoothly is FOX. It's odd, because I am 3-4 miles from the towers. I moved it around all over my room, but I can only get 50-70% of the other ones. I really just want HD PBS and UPN. My zip code is 35213. What should I do? Thanks!



When you are that close to the towers, the first thing to try is an attenuator to reduce the signal level going into the tuner:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search


----------



## KB9KXH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *flashbacck* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a really newbie question, so sorry if it sounds dumb. But what in the world is the difference between a Preamp and an Amp? Are they two different terms for the same thing?
> 
> 
> Thanks



a preamp is just an amp that comes earlier in the signal chain, usually a voltage amp tuned to the frequencies it must amplify. to a level acceptable to match the input in of the next stage in the signal chain. nearly all amps are actually several stages , or single amplifiers (one transistor or tube) connected in a chain to bring a signal to the needed power level, step by step, from microvolts at the antenna up to several watts at the speaker or display device. In the frontend of a radio circuit the preamp is before the so called rf amp, in audio circuitry the preamp comes before the power amp, both are called preamps but handle different signal types and power levels.


----------



## KB9KXH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AcuraCL* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> '
> 
> What is your source for this belief?
> 
> 
> I read on the FCC web site that they are reallocating the VHF band to public safety.



in my area hdtv signals are on uhf now but when analog broadcast are phased out they will move back to the vhf frequencies now occupied by their analog counterparts. the public safty allocations will be in 700 and 800 mhz bands


----------



## holl_ands

Unoccupied UHF channel positions CH14-21 are currently in use at various cities for Public Safety radio systems.

By Feb2009, all analog NTSC broadcasts are expected to shut down, but this is a firm NOT TO EXCEED date.

Some stations have shut down already and others may join them at any time.


By 17Feb2009, CH52 thru CH69 should be devoid of any broadcast TV stations and will be available for other purposes,

such as CH55 will be used NATION-WIDE for Qualcom's MediaFlo broadcast to mobile phones (and PCs) and CH 63/64 for Public Safety:
http://wireless.fcc.gov/publicsafety/700MHz/ 
http://www.dailywireless.org/modules...ticle&sid=5049 


===================================================

The results of the DTV Channel Election process can be found here:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...-05-1743A2.pdf 

or fol for Excel spread sheet version:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...-05-1743A2.xls 

There are only a handful of stations that have not selected a final resting place.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

So that means all of us that have those small UHF only antennas from RS have to get new ones?


----------



## Neil L

Not all, but some of you may. There will still be alot of station on UHF. But a few will go back to VHF channels. Here in my market, two station want to go back to VHF, one is already VHF, and three that moved to UHF will stay there. One that moved to UHF years ago, will also stay there.


----------



## Alan Gordon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> First of all, are you using a simple connection on its own downlead (e.g. antenna-balun-preamp-downlead-powermodule-RFSplitter-HDTV etal)?
> 
> The power insertion module must be able to supply D.C. power to the Preamp, without any D.C. blocking RF Splitters or Diplexers in the way.



Last night, I played with it again and found out that it was the coax cable going from the output on the splitter into the input of the HD-TiVo. It worked fine going straight from the output of the power insertion module into the HD-TiVo, but did NOT like it when the splitter was added to the mix. I now have a steady reliable signal (or at least as steady as it was before!)


Also, my current connection is antenna/balun/preamp/downlead/grounding block/downlead/powermodule/RF Splitter/assorted electronics... however, that is about to change. I'd like to take my antenna feed, and diplex the antenna feed into two rooms. What would be the best way for me to do this?!


~Alan


----------



## holl_ands

Although they aren't the best VHF antenna you can get, many UHF-ONLY antennas

will provide adequate performance when used with the more powerful VHF stations.


Heck, unless you are in the boonies, most people get along just fine with simple rabbit ears for VHF.


If you can receive a clear picture from their current analog VHF channel,

you'll probably receive an even better picture when they switch over to digital.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Although they aren't the best VHF antenna you can get, many UHF-ONLY antennas
> 
> will provide adequate performance when used with the more powerful VHF stations.
> 
> 
> Heck, unless you are in the boonies, most people get along just fine with simple rabbit ears for VHF.
> 
> 
> If you can receive a clear picture from their current analog VHF channel,
> 
> you'll probably receive an even better picture when they switch over to digital.



Even most people in the boonies won't need VHF-low so they would have no need for a giant VHF or combo antenna. A VHF-high antenna or future VHF-high/UHF combo antenna (maybe a 156 to 233 Mhz log-periodic which would pick up VHF-high on the fundamental and UHF 14-51 on the 3rd harmonic) would look petite compared to one of those old beasts.


----------



## holl_ands

What do you mean by "Diplex"???

Do you mean taking one of the 4-way splitter outputs, running in through a 2-way splitter and thence to the other rooms, where it then gets split some more???

If this is the case, you probably need a multiple output Distribution Amplifier, instead of the 2-way splitter.



Or do you mean sharing the same downlead for TV and SAT??? Which could get rather complex....

I know you said you have Dish, so we don't yet know if the fol. will be issue when Dish upgrades for MPEG4.

I've read that the new MPEG4 DirecTV 5xLNB Dish is apparently incompatible with sharing the downlead.

So sharing the downlead may only be a temporary arrangement.....maybe you are better off with separate runs.....


----------



## Neil L









Oh! No!







Looks like my NBC station (now using channel 52), has applied to go back to channel 5 after analog shut-off. But I'm not going to worry about it until they actually make the switch. Then I'll figure out what kind of antenna to use.


----------



## MoWheels




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Alan Gordon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also, my current connection is antenna/balun/preamp/downlead/grounding block/downlead/powermodule/RF Splitter/assorted electronics... however, that is about to change. I'd like to take my antenna feed, and diplex the antenna feed into two rooms. What would be the best way for me to do this?!
> 
> 
> ~Alan



Alan,

I've got the following setup in my attic, and it's working well for me:


CM 4228 UHF antenna and a UHF dipole connected to a splitter (used in reverse as a combiner) with the output going into the UHF input of a Channel Master 7777 preamp. (The 4228 is aimed south for WCTV-DT and the dipole is cut for channel 17 - WALB-DT and oriented NE/SW to receive that signal) There is only about a foot of RG-6 between the balun of the 4228 and the combiner and between the dipole and the combiner.


I have a VHF dipole feeding the VHF input of the 7777 preamp. This is oriented to receive WFXL-DT.


The preamp is connected via RG-6 to the preamp power supply. The power supply output feeds the antenna input of a 5x8 multiswitch with the 4 RG-6 cables from the DirecTV 3 LNB dish feeding the four satellite inputs.


Two of the multiswitch outputs go to the HD Tivo. One of the lines feeds a diplexer which in turn feeds one of the satellite inputs and the antenna input.


Two more of the multiswitch outputs similarly feed a SD Tivo in the living room.


One of the multiswitch outputs feeds a SD receiver in the bedroom with a similar diplexer setup.


The remaining 3 multiswitch outputs are unused.


Since all this is in the attic, weatherproofing wasn't an issue, nor is windloading. As a result, it is all a bit "flimsy", but works fine.

Don


----------



## dapack5

is it actually possible to have an antenna too high? i'm curious because i recently raised my antenna to aproximately 32 ft and some channel that i was getting have now disappeared! i also used to be able to ocassionally receive miami and wp beach stations ( HD channels ) here in lehigh acres,fl. but since i raised the antenna i no longer receive them. could there be another reason for this?


using an old winegard UHF antenna and a radio shack up to 30db amplifier,running approximately 60ft of rg6 cable


----------



## ctdish

There is a small chance the signals are weaker up high, but the more likely cause is preamp overload. Dou have any nearby stations? Also the preamp has much more gain than is need for ypur cable length. John


----------



## TheRatPatrol




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Although they aren't the best VHF antenna you can get, many UHF-ONLY antennas
> 
> will provide adequate performance when used with the more powerful VHF stations.
> 
> 
> Heck, unless you are in the boonies, most people get along just fine with simple rabbit ears for VHF.
> 
> 
> If you can receive a clear picture from their current analog VHF channel,
> 
> you'll probably receive an even better picture when they switch over to digital.



So can you use a UHF antenna to get FM stations?


Is there an all in one antenna that also includes AM?


----------



## holl_ands

FM band starts at the top of CH6, so most any VHF antenna also works for FM.


There are some lo-gain indoor antennas (e.g. Terk) that do both AM and FM, but I've never seen any serious medium to high gain TV antennas that also did AM.....


Hmmm, why is that??? After all, cars do it all the time....

And boats can use an AM/FM/VHF Splitter (e.g. Shakespeare 4357-S) to couple their VHF Transceivers into the same whip antenna as their AM/FM Receiver.


Ah-ha, here's one in the same boat catalog: Shakesphere 4358 AM/FM/TV Band Separator (about $40):
http://www.shakespeare-marine.com/catalog/fullline.pdf 

Unfortunately, no specs...


Most any chunk of wire will help to receive AM....the longer the better....

All you would need is an AM/FM Diplexer (aka AM/FM Splitter, aka crossband coupler) with a 2 MHz LPF to filter the low AM freqs to one output

and a 50 MHz HPF for the VHF/UHF freqs to the other. You could build your own....


----------



## Rammitinski

I get pretty good results receiving FM just using rabbit ears.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There are some lo-gain indoor antennas (e.g. Terk) that do both AM and FM, but I've never seen any serious medium to high gain TV antennas that also did AM.....
> 
> 
> Hmmm, why is that??? After all, cars do it all the time....



I can think of a few reasons. Probably the best is that AM isn't hard to receive. The second-best is that AM isn't that popular. The third-best is that an AM dipole is insanely long.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dapack5* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> is it actually possible to have an antenna too high? i'm curious because i recently raised my antenna to aproximately 32 ft and some channel that i was getting have now disappeared! i also used to be able to ocassionally receive miami and wp beach stations ( HD channels ) here in lehigh acres,fl. but since i raised the antenna i no longer receive them. could there be another reason for this?
> 
> 
> using an old winegard UHF antenna and a radio shack up to 30db amplifier,running approximately 60ft of rg6 cable



Try this preamp. 30 db of gain is too much for your location. Some RS preamps are prone to overload problems.


SPECIAL USE PRE-AMP


NEW HDP-269 (75 ohm in 75 ohm down) Special Pre-amp used in high input suburban area to boost signal before long cable run. $55.78


Only 12 dB with 3 dB Noise but can take 350,000 uV of input so it will not overload in strong signal location


----------



## Alan Gordon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Or do you mean sharing the same downlead for TV and SAT??? Which could get rather complex....
> 
> I know you said you have Dish, so we don't yet know if the fol. will be issue when Dish upgrades for MPEG4.
> 
> I've read that the new MPEG4 DirecTV 5xLNB Dish is apparently incompatible with sharing the downlead.
> 
> So sharing the downlead may only be a temporary arrangement.....maybe you are better off with separate runs.....



Currently, I have the 4228 running directly from the Pre-Amp down to the grounding block, and then straight into the Den and then hooked up to the power insertion module, and then to the four way splitter that you recommended. This feeds my HD-TiVo, TV, a modulator (that I use to allow me to watch SD recorded material on my bedroom TV), and one for future use.


My antenna is ONLY used in the Den. However, after getting tired waiting on DirecTV to add SD-LIL for my DMA, and hearing of the WB-UPN merger which will allow me to receive CW programming from a neighboring market's UPN station, I decided that I would like to purchase a Stand-Alone TiVo for the Living Room.


I would like to take a splitter and then bring a line from it to near my Multi-Switch, and then diplex the antenna into two feeds (one of the lines going to a SD DirecTiVo in the Living Room, where the Stand-Alone TiVo will go, and then into another bedroom with another line coming from the multi-switch to a SD DirecTiVo).


So, what do I need? A splitter to split the line going from the antenna to the Den, and then two Diplexor sets to diplex the lines. However, do I need to get another amplifier to the other two rooms, or will the current power module still provide power to these other two runs?!


As far as DirecTV goes, I assume that as long as the diplexors are only on the lines going to SD units, that the KA issue won't be a problem.


~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MoWheels* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Alan,
> 
> I've got the following setup in my attic, and it's working well for me:
> 
> 
> CM 4228 UHF antenna and a UHF dipole connected to a splitter (used in reverse as a combiner) with the output going into the UHF input of a Channel Master 7777 preamp. (The 4228 is aimed south for WCTV-DT and the dipole is cut for channel 17 - WALB-DT and oriented NE/SW to receive that signal) There is only about a foot of RG-6 between the balun of the 4228 and the combiner and between the dipole and the combiner.
> 
> 
> I have a VHF dipole feeding the VHF input of the 7777 preamp. This is oriented to receive WFXL-DT.



I would be interested in knowing more how you did this. Starting this Summer, I'm going to have a lot more channel choices as both the Columbus and Tallahassee DMA will be going full-power, and I'd like to be able to receive as MANY of these channels as possible. If you have a digital camera, could you take some pictures and E-Mail them to me?!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MoWheels* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The preamp is connected via RG-6 to the preamp power supply. The power supply output feeds the antenna input of a 5x8 multiswitch with the 4 RG-6 cables from the DirecTV 3 LNB dish feeding the four satellite inputs.



As holl_ands said in a post above, DirecTV's new KA satellites that will be used to provide new nationals (most likely next year), and HD-LIL for Albany (next year) do not allow diplexors to be used in conjunction with DirecTV's lines. I don't think I will have a problem since I do not have the line to my HD-TiVo diplexed, and so far DirecTV has not announced any plans for SD programming via the KA satellites, and my HD-TiVo will most likely be switched out for DirecTV's new HR20-250 HD-DVR this Fall (if I still want to receive my HD-DNS), so I want to set it up now with less trouble later.


~Alan


----------



## slapshot

From Post 3953


Ok,got my CM3020 and set it up in my attic here in zip 60585,sw of Chicago about 38 miles. Not easy to do as this thing is really long! Anyway,was able to get all of the channels except of course CBS (channel 2,which I had a feeling would be impossible) which is on Digital VHF 3. I have a very faint signal on that according to my Hughes HTL-HD. Would picking up an amplifier (CM7777?) get me what I need to lock it in? Or should I just suck it up and put it on the roof,which I think would pull it in (I hope!) I know it's ok to do it,just wanted to avoid it for aesthetic reasons.


Also,running the feed from the antenna and combining it with satellite signal after the multiswich (a 4x8) with diplexers only to the receivers that need it should be ok right? I don't want to run separate lines to all 4 TV's using a 4 way splitter or some such nonsense.


----------



## gawngulfing

I see on eBay a ton of Direct TV / OTA receivers. What are the restrictions to these?


Can I tune an OTA reception through one without having to subscribe to DirectTV?


I recently dropped my local cable. I could pick up PBS, ABC, CBS, maybe NBC and Fox in April using OTA.


However, if I can do it with a $50 DirectTV / OTA receiver vs. a $150 Samsung OTA only box, my wife would like me much better.


Please shed your unlimited wealth of knowledge with me to know if this is a mistake.


----------



## newsposter

slapshot, it's much easier to just try an amp now while the antenna is in place then if it doesn't work, just return it then try the roof. Or even keep it and use it when the antenna is outside. Point is, it's easier to try everything inside before you go thru the hassle of outside.


as far as the diplexor thing, it should work. Of course if one ever is planning on directvs 5lnb dish, diplexing is out but it doesn't sound like that's an issue for you.


----------



## acresdog

Hi, total newbie to the HDTV lifestyle. Though, I need help with either getting a new antenna or pre-amp (or both).


I am in Kalamazoo, Michigan and according to antennaweb I should be able to get these:


Station, Channel, Network, Miles From,

WOTV-DT, 41.1, ABC, 24 (Signal is 80-90%)

WMXI-DT, 17.1, FOX, 30.7 (Signal is 75-85%)

WGVK/U-DT, 5.1 (mistake? on TV it is 52.1), PBS, 3.7 (Signal is 85-95%)

WOOD-DT, 8.1, NBC, 30.9 (Signal is 75-80%)


I don't pick up the local 'i' channel, and don't care about it. Another channel is listed hasn't gone live yet.


Though, I want:

WWMT-DT, 3.1, CBS, 26.9


And can't pick it up. Over analog it comes in very fuzzy, so I take it with the 'all or nothing' for digital, I get nothing.


Right now I am using, a 80" Boom Length, 32-Element Antenna with no pre-amp.


Should I get a pre-amp first and see if that helps, or what?


----------



## Kamakzie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *acresdog* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi, total newbie to the HDTV lifestyle. Though, I need help with either getting a new antenna or pre-amp (or both).
> 
> 
> I am in Kalamazoo, Michigan and according to antennaweb I should be able to get these:
> 
> 
> Station, Channel, Network, Miles From,
> 
> WOTV-DT, 41.1, ABC, 24 (Signal is 80-90%)
> 
> WMXI-DT, 17.1, FOX, 30.7 (Signal is 75-85%)
> 
> WGVK/U-DT, 5.1 (mistake? on TV it is 52.1), PBS, 3.7 (Signal is 85-95%)
> 
> WOOD-DT, 8.1, NBC, 30.9 (Signal is 75-80%)
> 
> 
> I don't pick up the local 'i' channel, and don't care about it. Another channel is listed hasn't gone live yet.
> 
> 
> Though, I want:
> 
> WWMT-DT, 3.1, CBS, 26.9
> 
> 
> And can't pick it up. Over analog it comes in very fuzzy, so I take it with the 'all or nothing' for digital, I get nothing.
> 
> 
> Right now I am using, a 80" Boom Length, 32-Element Antenna with no pre-amp.
> 
> 
> Should I get a pre-amp first and see if that helps, or what?



Hey fellow Michigander! Come check out this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4&page=1&pp=30 


Lots of West Michigan antenna info there.


----------



## TommyK

I bought a Silver Sensor at Sears a couple of years ago. They had seven stocked on their shelves. Wish I'd picked up a second one at the time because they apparently don't carry them anymore.


----------



## hdtvluvr

I posted this in the Integration forum and didn't get a response.


After reading about the new DirecTV systems and the fact that they will not allow OTA signals to be diplexed, and that I will be moving my antenna outside, I've decided I need to upgrade my cabling in the family room in preparation for the new DVR's. Currently, I have only 1 cable there (installed when the house was built and it may be RG59 - I'm not sure.


The new cable will need to be run outside since there isn't any other way to go from my multiswitch, etc. in the attic down to where it needs to go on the first floor. Therefore, I would like to have 3 Quad shield RG6 (2 for sat and 1 for OTA) along with 2 cat5 or cat6 (so I can also include a phone line to the location and networking later if needed). Does anyone make bundles with 3 RG6 cables? I've searched and can't seem to locate it.


It this isn't available, is there any type of sheath material that can be used to create a bundle? Of course, the material would need to be able to stand up to outside weather. My color preference would be white. I've thought about white PVC but it doesn't hold up to sunlight well.


Any ideas?


----------



## hockey puck

After reading this forum I bought a SS2000 from Solid Signal. It did not work. Did not get 5 of the local HD stations. Repaced it with the cheap one put in by DTV installers. Gets all of the local HD without any issue.


Lesson learned about buying based on advice from people who use such an item in different geographic areas. The SS may be a great antenna for a different local.

Next time I am going to check to see what works for the guy around the block.


Its going to go back to Solid Signal....Though, I must say they have been very helpful so far. Lets see how they do with the return.


----------



## DaveinTucson

I moved to a 10 acre place I bought in SE Arizona in December. Antennaweb.org told me the Tucson TV stations transmit from 54 miles away and analog VHF reception of 1 or 2 stations were all I could hope for. So, I went with Dish network's HD package (I have a Sony 57" rear projection HDTV). ESPN & the couple of other HD channels they offer came in pretty good. But the local station feed for Tucson was terrible. Apparently they get only the analog feed and compress it down to mpeg2. So, I did some research & shopping. There are several mountain ranges between me and Tucson, but I though I just might luck out. I decided to go with a Winegard 9095 antenna - 95" UHF only directional boom, and a Channel Master 7777 preamp. Antennaweb.org told me to orient the antenna at 285 degrees compass heading. I fired everything up and the HD tuner told me I was only getting 20-30% signal strenght. But, 285 degrees was pointing right at a mountain peak about 20 miles away. I kept trying different headings, working my way down. Finally, pointing the antenna just south of due west (maybe 265 degrees) I found the strongest signal, as I was pointing toward a gap between 2 mountain ranges. What I lost from being off-directional I gained with more signal making it through the "holes" in the skyline. I get all 6 Tucson stations broadcasting digital signals, in 70-91% signal strength. Great to have HD OTA back, just in time for the premier of Fox's "24", and the NFL playoffs.

So, it can be done for "fringe reception" (50+ miles). You just need some good equipment, and luck with topography.

Dave now in Cochise


----------



## newsposter

and here i thought i've been watching 24 for 6 weeks now.


----------



## bt-rtp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DaveinTucson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I moved to a 10 acre place I bought in SE Arizona in December. Antennaweb.org told me the Tucson TV stations transmit from 54 miles away and analog VHF reception of 1 or 2 stations were all I could hope for. So, I went with Dish network's HD package (I have a Sony 57" rear projection HDTV). ESPN & the couple of other HD channels they offer came in pretty good. But the local station feed for Tucson was terrible. Apparently they get only the analog feed and compress it down to mpeg2. So, I did some research & shopping. There are several mountain ranges between me and Tucson, but I though I just might luck out. I decided to go with a Winegard 9095 antenna - 95" UHF only directional boom, and a Channel Master 7777 preamp. Antennaweb.org told me to orient the antenna at 285 degrees compass heading. I fired everything up and the HD tuner told me I was only getting 20-30% signal strenght. But, 285 degrees was pointing right at a mountain peak about 20 miles away. I kept trying different headings, working my way down. Finally, pointing the antenna just south of due west (maybe 265 degrees) I found the strongest signal, as I was pointing toward a gap between 2 mountain ranges. What I lost from being off-directional I gained with more signal making it through the "holes" in the skyline. I get all 6 Tucson stations broadcasting digital signals, in 70-91% signal strength. Great to have HD OTA back, just in time for the premier of Fox's "24", and the NFL playoffs.
> 
> So, it can be done for "fringe reception" (50+ miles). You just need some good equipment, and luck with topography.
> 
> Dave now in Cochise



That's cool, you got it right. There is a lot of hocus pocus associated with UHF antennas that's for sure.


----------



## Gary McCoy

I am presently enjoying pristine HDTV from a rooftop antenna, a Wineguard PR-9032. I have some experience with antennas in several prior jobs, I knew what I wanted and needed, and also wanted a minimal impact to the house appearance (the wife's requirement). My site was rather difficult, the extreme South end of Silicon Valley, 49 miles from Sutro Tower and San Bruno Mountain where all the digital transmitters are located. 100' from my house is a 1100' hill which gives a wicked ghost on analog signals. I also have one SF Bay-area station, KNTV-DT, located on VHF channel 12. To add some challenge, many of the digital broadcasts are at considerably reduced power levels compared to the analog broadcasts. Finally my neighborhood has large evergreen trees and palms which would be higher than my antenna and between it and the transmitters.


I decided to start with the high-gain UHF Yagi and antenna rotator I knew I needed, and the Winegard PR-9032 had the highest specified gain. If necessary I could add a small VHF antenna for channel 12. The mount was homemade from two sections of 2X6 heart redwood, screwed to the rear side of the wood-frame chimney and painted house color. The bottom 2X6 is bolted to the rotator, the top 2X6 is bolted to a thrust bearing which is 3' above the rotator and 1' below the chimney top. A single 10-ft mast section was used which places the antenna 6 ft above the chimney top with no guy wires. The thrust bearing was used for a completely rigid mount that could be entirely concealed on the rear of the chimney, and a 3' builder's level was used to insure that the antenna was perfectly vertical. The coax runs down the chimney along with the rotator wire and a 6-guage copper ground wire. The antenna ground and the coaxial feedthough grounding block are both attached to a 1/2" X 8' copper-clad ground rod pounded within 2" of flush to the ground. (You may think you do not need a ground on an antenna located in California which seldom experiences electrical storms. However, if your house burns down an ungrounded antenna installed by a homeowner can be grounds to deny insurance coverage.)


The results are everything I expected. The stations on actual UHF channels 19-57 are all indicating 77%-93% signal strength on my MyHD tuner in my Home Theater. In practice I get all stations on two bearings which are 301 degrees and 338 degrees, and these are marked on the old analog style rotator dial (just turn it and wait a few seconds for it to swing 37 degrees). The VHF channel 12, although nominally out of the band of my UHF Yagi antenna, is received at 47%-55% signal levels. I can receive this one channel equally well at the true bearing of 301 degrees and also at 121 degrees, with the antenna pointed directly away from the transmitter. This fact tells me that my UHF Yagi is acting as a simple dipole with zero gain for this out-of-band signal, and the short (for VHF frequencies) corner reflector and forward antenna director elements are having no effect on channel 12.


There is one channel, KSMS-DT in Monterey (UHF channel 31), which I have zero reception of, it's behind that hill I mentioned, although only 14.1 miles from my house. The eighteen from Sutro Tower and San Bruno Mountain are all there, with no amplification required for the short coax run which is about 40' total.


Gary


----------



## 308wl

I recently bought a Philips 50 inch plasma TV with built-in HDTV tuner for OTA reception of HD signals. This was my first venture into HD so I had much questions regarding how to get OTA HD signals. I found AVSforum most helpful regarding all my questions. However, I was told that if I live in a large city such as Los Angeles and my non-HD reception was adequate then I would not have to buy any special antenna to receive HD OTA. A coat hanger would suffice. So I hooked my new plasma to my old rabbit ear since I live in a condo complex and cannot put out an outdoor antenna. With it, I was able to pull down 4 HD signals but they were unstable. In fact, I was never able get ABC HD and a couple of the local HD stations. I had two other indoor antennae lying around and one was even amplified that I bought from Radio Shack recently. Even with the amplified one, I got no better result then my initial older rabbit ear.


I bought this plasma TV set hoping I would be able to watch "Super Bowl" HD but instead, I had to settle for a slightly doubled imaged analog "Super Bowl". After trying all three antennae in various positions in my condo and ultimately using a longer coaxial, I pulled it out unto my balcony - no difference. No better.


After reading this site and AVS forum and other reviews, I finally settled on trying Terk HDTVi, an un-amplified antenna with some skepticism since I had no luck with all my rabbit ears.


The set up was so easy. Through antennaweb.org, I found out where all Los Angeles' TV towers are and I aimed this unit in that general direction and I repeat my new plasma's channel auto-detection programming function and watched as it tallied up all the digital and non-digital channels it was now able to receive. According to antennaweb.org, I should be able to receive 31 digital channels. Well, by the end of auto-programming cycle, my TV tallied over 45 digital channels and more than 15 non-digitals. I was ecstatic, and for the first time, I was able to get ABC HD and KCOP HD and some other in the high VHF band channels that I never knew existed.


Of course each owners' result will vary from location to location but I am most amazed and pleased with this unit esp. given its very reasonable price. Try it and hopefully your get as good of result as I have. I am very happy.


----------



## cornellalum

I'm new to the antenna and HDTV world. I just bought a HDTV tuner off EBay (also comes with a NTSC tuner for analog stations) and need some advice regarding antenna selection.


I live in an apartment building in Berkeley, around 10 miles east of the Sutro transmission tower in San Francisco. I am on the east side of my building, so when I look out the window, I see the Berkeley Hills, and not the Sutro tower that is west of me. Between my apartment and the west side of the building (towards Sutro tower) is 60 feet and 3 walls.


My friend brought over his Samsung T451 tuner and RCA ANT401 antenna (unamplified VHF/UHF antenna). The T451 picked up channels from Sutro with no problem. I was surprised at the clarity.


So now with my HDTV tuner on the way, I need to buy an antenna. I've heard good things about the Zenith Silver Sensor. I am not sure if the TV signals I received (using friend's equipment) were reflections off the Berkeley Hills. Do you recommend getting a directional antenna or an omni-directional antenna? Would the Zenith Silver Sensor work for me?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cornellalum* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So now with my HDTV tuner on the way, I need to buy an antenna. I've heard good things about the Zenith Silver Sensor. I am not sure if the TV signals I received (using friend's equipment) were reflections off the Berkeley Hills. Do you recommend getting a directional antenna or an omni-directional antenna? Would the Zenith Silver Sensor work for me?



First of all, you don't say which model tuner you bought, and that will probably determine whether you have success or not. The newer models (such as the 451) handle multipath (reflected signals that compete with the primary signal, and appear as "ghosts" on analog channels) much better than the older ones.


That said, the Silver Sensor is probably close to the top of the list of antenna choices. You'll definitely want a directional antenna, but the fact that your friend's RCA worked well (an antenna with relatively poor performance characteristics) means that antenna choice is probably not crucial for you. Avoid anything that says "amplified."


If the choice were mine, I'd buy the Silver Sensor and hope my tuner was good enough to handle to inevitable multipath. If the Silver Sensor didn't work as well as the 451, I'd sell the tuner and buy a newer one.


----------



## cornellalum

Thanks sregener.


I purchased an Epson LSDT2 HDTV tuner. It has the same chassis as the Viewsonic HD12, so my guess is that it's a Viewsonic HD12 with a few changes. For example, there's only Composite, S-Video, and VGA outputs instead of the whole HDMI shabang. How does the HD12 treat multipath signals?


(for more information about what I bought you can search the item number 5861413413 on EBay)


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cornellalum* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How does the HD12 treat multipath signals?



I had no idea Epson or Viewsonic made HD tuners, so I have no idea how they would perform. Perhaps a search or posting on the HDTV Hardware forum would get you better answers.


----------



## cmassa

I live in Northern California (Chico - 95973). Most of our stations are now in HD but at low power. Using an AntennasDirect DB4 I can pull in signal from Redding (67 miles away) most of the time for ABC and PBS although PBS has been worse lately. My problem is that CBS and Fox are about 90 degrees to this and much closer (


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cmassa* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live in Northern California (Chico - 95973). Most of our stations are now in HD but at low power. Using an AntennasDirect DB4 I can pull in signal from Redding (67 miles away) most of the time for ABC and PBS although PBS has been worse lately. My problem is that CBS and Fox are about 90 degrees to this and much closer (


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cmassa* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live in Northern California (Chico - 95973). Most of our stations are now in HD but at low power. Using an AntennasDirect DB4 I can pull in signal from Redding (67 miles away) most of the time for ABC and PBS although PBS has been worse lately. My problem is that CBS and Fox are about 90 degrees to this and much closer (


----------



## cmassa

I don't have a preamp yet. Any recommendations? Actually PBS is the only problem right now. KNVN's signal (323 degrees) is highly variable, going from 95 on the meter to 30 and back again but they only just started HD broadcasts a few days ago and have a lot of other issues as well (very low audio level). I'm thinking that moving the antenna a few degrees towards it won't help much. KHSL and Fox (20 degrees) are actually OK for now even with the antenna pointed at 307 degrees. Signal strength is a little lower but very stable. I'll need to keep an eye on it.


Chris


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cmassa* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't have a preamp yet. Any recommendations?
> 
> Chris



The hottest preamp is the Channel Master 7777, but you may not need that much gain. I'm fond of the Winegard HDP-269.


In your case I'd add the preamp to the DB4 aimed at Redding and buy a second DB4 for FOX and CBS. At first I'd try to add them with a splitter used backwards. If that does not work there's two options, the simplest is to add a second HDP-269 to the FOX/CBS antenna before they are added to the Redding signals.


If that doesn't work buy Jointennas for 20 and 43, feed them with a signal split off the new DB4 antenna line, and add those signals to the existing antenna with the Jointennas daisy-channed. The preamps need to be directly behind the antennas, the rest of the electronics can be sashed anywhere indoors.


----------



## greenehouse

Here's my dilema - hoping for insight from the expertise on this board:


I want to tune the below 2 stations (here's the antennaweb info):

PBS - Chapel Hill - Orientation 309 degrees, Frequency: 59

WB - Raleigh - Orientation 100 degrees, Frequency: 57


Right now, my CM4228 is oriented towards WB (there's other stations that direction too), and that comes in fine. PBS is spotty.


I've tried another antenna [CM3022] oriented towards PBS, and combining the 2 with a 'reverse-splitter', but that gives bad multi-path on PBS.


Seems a 'jointenna' might be the way to go, but note how close the 2 frequencies are. If I get a join-tenna for the 59 frequency, (PBS) I'm worried about impacting my reception on the 57 (WB). [ It probably doesn't help that this particular WB stations' power output is not the strongest either ...







]


I'm basing this concern off of what I've read that jointennas aren't 100% precise for a given frequency, and can also impact frequencies 1 or 2 in both directions


Does anyone have any experience using a jointenna to add a channel that might be this close to another? Any luck?


What about the notion of 'cheating' a little with the jointenna, and using one for Frequency - say - 60, in hopes that it minimizes the multi-path on 59 enough from 1 direction, while impacting the 57 less (than a 59 jointenna would).


As a side-note, I wonder why (if?) no one has come up with a 'tuneable' jointenna. Seems that would be a great product, allow for re-use later in other applications (you move residences), and be good for my situation above. I also wonder why CM seems to be the only company that makes a jointenna (or jointenna like) device. Anyone know of any other vendors?


In any event, thanks in advance for any and all info/guidance anyone can share!


----------



## bt-rtp

Hi greenehouse,


Yes this can be accomplished. However, you have to use an additional Jointenna and a regular splitter (as a combiner) after them to combine their output.


In this configuration, the Jointenna's are used merely as a bandpass filter allowing the desired channel to pass blocking all others. You do this for each channel and antenna, in this case WP and PBS. The extra coax input on the Jointenna that is used for "all channels" is not used and is terminated with a 75 ohm terminator to prevent any strong stray signals from jumping in.


I have this same setup and it works perfect, I have a three way splitter/combiner with the third leg used as input for the antenna pointed to Garner for the major stations. Get a good quality splitter like a Pico Macom or a 2 Ghz Monster Cable brand from Best Buy.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greenehouse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here's my dilema - hoping for insight from the expertise on this board:
> 
> 
> I want to tune the below 2 stations (here's the antennaweb info):
> 
> PBS - Chapel Hill - Orientation 309 degrees, Frequency: 59
> 
> WB - Raleigh - Orientation 100 degrees, Frequency: 57
> 
> 
> Right now, my CM4228 is oriented towards WB (there's other stations that direction too), and that comes in fine. PBS is spotty.
> 
> 
> I've tried another antenna [CM3022] oriented towards PBS, and combining the 2 with a 'reverse-splitter', but that gives bad multi-path on PBS.
> 
> 
> Seems a 'jointenna' might be the way to go, but note how close the 2 frequencies are. If I get a join-tenna for the 59 frequency, (PBS) I'm worried about impacting my reception on the 57 (WB). [ It probably doesn't help that this particular WB stations' power output is not the strongest either ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ]
> 
> 
> I'm basing this concern off of what I've read that jointennas aren't 100% precise for a given frequency, and can also impact frequencies 1 or 2 in both directions
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any experience using a jointenna to add a channel that might be this close to another? Any luck?
> 
> 
> What about the notion of 'cheating' a little with the jointenna, and using one for Frequency - say - 60, in hopes that it minimizes the multi-path on 59 enough from 1 direction, while impacting the 57 less (than a 59 jointenna would).
> 
> 
> As a side-note, I wonder why (if?) no one has come up with a 'tuneable' jointenna. Seems that would be a great product, allow for re-use later in other applications (you move residences), and be good for my situation above. I also wonder why CM seems to be the only company that makes a jointenna (or jointenna like) device. Anyone know of any other vendors?
> 
> 
> In any event, thanks in advance for any and all info/guidance anyone can share!


----------



## pat_h20

Ok, I am new here, so I thought I would ask a question. I apologize if someone has already brought this up and I missed it. Please point me in teh right direction if that is the case.


Has anyone tried Antennas Direct's Lacrosse? I am looking into buying one, and I wanted to see what your experience has been. My uncle has one that he has been using for a few weeks at his house in San Francisco. He said he had a DB4 before that. I've read a couple of reviews for the Lacrosse, that give it high marks, so I am probably going to take the leap.


I live in northwest St. Louis County in Missouri. It says on the Antennas Direct website that they're good for up to 40 miles so I think I should be fine. I'm impressed with the look of them. I don't have an attic, and I had some reservations sticking a big antenna on my roof. But this actually looks better than the dish that I already have out there!


I am pretty much a newbie to HD. Still warming up to the idea that I can get HD picture from an antenna! Any insight you might have on the Lacrosse would be appreciated.


----------



## Rammitinski

Don't know anything about that antenna, but you'd better hurry up and enjoy OTA HD while you still can, because it's slowly but surely getting watered down by adding more subchannels, which is accomplished by lessening the bandwith, lowering bit rates and compressing more, resulting in less detail, softer picture and annoying artifacts such as macroblocking during fast movements. It's still better that most of the satellite HD channels, but that may not be for long.


----------



## rdwalt

Dang Rammitinski! What are you trying to do, make me cry?!?


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pat_h20* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ok, I am new here, so I thought I would ask a question. I apologize if someone has already brought this up and I missed it. Please point me in teh right direction if that is the case.
> 
> 
> Has anyone tried Antennas Direct's Lacrosse? I am looking into buying one, and I wanted to see what your experience has been. My uncle has one that he has been using for a few weeks at his house in San Francisco. He said he had a DB4 before that. I've read a couple of reviews for the Lacrosse, that give it high marks, so I am probably going to take the leap.
> 
> 
> I live in northwest St. Louis County in Missouri. It says on the Antennas Direct website that they're good for up to 40 miles so I think I should be fine. I'm impressed with the look of them. I don't have an attic, and I had some reservations sticking a big antenna on my roof. But this actually looks better than the dish that I already have out there!
> 
> 
> I am pretty much a newbie to HD. Still warming up to the idea that I can get HD picture from an antenna! Any insight you might have on the Lacrosse would be appreciated.



That antenna looks overpriced for what it is. Antenna gain comes from directivity and directivity comes from size measured in wavelengths. Look back in this thread for antenna recommendations. If you go to www.antennaweb.org you can get an idea of the type of antenna that you need. For a UHF antenna without too much horizontal directivity the Channelmaster 4221 or the Antennas Direct DB-4 are good choices.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greenehouse* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here's my dilema - hoping for insight from the expertise on this board:
> 
> 
> I want to tune the below 2 stations (here's the antennaweb info):
> 
> PBS - Chapel Hill - Orientation 309 degrees, Frequency: 59
> 
> WB - Raleigh - Orientation 100 degrees, Frequency: 57...
> 
> 
> Seems a 'jointenna' might be the way to go, but note how close the 2 frequencies are. If I get a join-tenna for the 59 frequency, (PBS) I'm worried about impacting my reception on the 57 (WB)... Does anyone have any experience using a jointenna to add a channel that might be this close to another?
> 
> 
> What about the notion of 'cheating' a little with the jointenna, and using one for Frequency - say - 60, in hopes that it minimizes the multi-path on 59 enough from 1 direction, while impacting the 57 less (than a 59 jointenna would).
> 
> 
> As a side-note, I wonder why (if?) no one has come up with a 'tuneable' jointenna. ...
> 
> 
> I also wonder why CM seems to be the only company that makes a jointenna (or jointenna like) device. Anyone know of any other vendors?



Jointennas are crudely tunable, but you need a spectrum analyzer to tune them.

There are slightly better bandpass filters available that do a little better with alternate channel rejection, but they cost more. You can try contacting Tin Lee Electronics in Canada if you are willing to pay around $100 each.


With alternate channels, you would probably do better using Winegard tunable notch filters, UT-7600, but again, you'd need to use a spectrum analyzer to tune them optimally.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rdwalt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Dang Rammitinski! What are you trying to do, make me cry?!?



No, just mad as hell and not going to take it anymore.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Don't know anything about that antenna, but you'd better hurry up and enjoy OTA HD while you still can, because it's slowly but surely getting watered down by adding more subchannels, which is accomplished by lessening the bandwith, lowering bit rates and compressing more, resulting in less detail, softer picture and annoying artifacts such as macroblocking during fast movements. It's still better that most of the satellite HD channels, but that may not be for long.



well by definition the OTA has to be better than or equal to the satellite so i'm sure we are all safe for a while







But if it gets to be equal to OTA and also gets in all the channels I get OTA, then it may be time to pull down the DB8 but somehow i doubt dtv will ever get in CW or pbs


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No, just mad as hell and not going to take it anymore.



It is sad, the route DTV is taking. There is not much truely high definition left as it is. Just look at almost any sporting event, yuk!


But more to the point Rammitinski, what are _*you*_ going to do about it?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Don't know anything about that antenna, but you'd better hurry up and enjoy OTA HD while you still can, because it's slowly but surely getting watered down by adding more subchannels, which is accomplished by lessening the bandwith, lowering bit rates and compressing more, resulting in less detail, softer picture and annoying artifacts such as macroblocking during fast movements. It's still better that most of the satellite HD channels, but that may not be for long.



Compression equipment is getting better. The use of statmux equipment is more widespread. The combination of the two can create a subchannel with very little impact on the PQ of the main channel.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil Laffoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It is sad, the route DTV is taking. There is not much truely high definition left as it is. Just look at almost any sporting event, yuk!
> 
> 
> But more to the point Rammitinski, what are _*you*_ going to do about it?



Not completely sure yet. I'm just dealing with it as it comes. Keep sending a lot of e-mails I guess. But if it gets really bad, other than pray they keep pushing back the analog cutoff date (some of my local digitals, even the ones without subs, actually look worse than the analogs), I guess all I can do is alert newbies to the fact that it's been declining, and just rally all the like-minded people I can. Here in Chicago, our local thread posters are really disgusted the way they've just recently completly wrecked our formerly glorious 1080i PBS-HD channel with a 2nd sub, and the real kicker is that the sub's so bad you can barely watch it. So us guys in the local OTA thread are doing what we can. We've even got one of their engineers reading our threads. Money wise, I know at least a few of our local PBS contributers are planning on not re-upping in protest. My Dish SD channels are atrocious, so once it gets warmer, I'll probably get up on the roof and get all the parts to send back and cancel (I'm leased). There's already plenty of griping about satellite on this forum. Everyone there is warning potential customers about Direct's HDLite and both's lies to new customers about upgradability to mpeg4 with the older HD equipment that they're still selling. And then there's the lousy customer service in general. And the becoming-as-common-as-cable yearly price increases. A lot of people are just absorbing their losses and actually going back to cable, that's how fed up they are.


----------



## glaesemann

I am supposedly in a good reception area for OTA. My local DirecTv installer has recommended I add the SS1000 Square Shooter to my DirecTv HD dish. She likes it because I really only need 233°-236° and she thinks the ss1000 will help block out other directions. I have read poor reviews of this antenna from others on this board.


Here are my Antennaweb specs. What would you recommend..... DB-2?


Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Compass Miles Frequency


yellow - uhf WWOR-DT 9.1 UPN SECAUCUS NJ 234° 14.1 38

yellow - uhf WPXN-DT 31.1 i NEW YORK NY 233° 17.0 30

yellow - uhf WNYW-DT 5.1 FOX NEW YORK NY 234° 14.1 44

yellow - uhf WPIX-DT 11.1 WB NEW YORK NY 234° 14.1 33

yellow - uhf WXTV-DT 41.1 UNI PATERSON NJ 234° 14.1 40

yellow - uhf WNJU-DT 36 TEL LINDEN NJ 233° 17.0 36

yellow - uhf WCBS-DT 2.1 CBS NEW YORK NY 234° 14.1 56

yellow - uhf WABC-DT 7.1 ABC NEW YORK NY 236° 13.7 45

green - uhf WNBC-DT 4.1 NBC NEW YORK NY 236° 13.4 28

blue - uhf WFUT-DT 68.1 TFA NEWARK NJ 236° 13.7 53

violet - uhf WNET-DT 13.1 PBS NEWARK NJ 234° 14.1 61


Thank you!


Tim


----------



## glaesemann

I am supposedly in a good reception area for OTA. My local DirecTv installer has recommended I add the SS1000 Square Shooter to my DirecTv HD dish. She likes it because I really only need 233°-236° and she thinks the ss1000 will help block out other directions. I have read poor reviews of this antenna from others on this board.


Here are my Antennaweb specs. What would you recommend? Can I get away with just the DB-2? Also, do I still need a receiver like the 7777?


Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Compass Miles Frequency


yellow - uhf WWOR-DT 9.1 UPN SECAUCUS NJ 234° 14.1 38

yellow - uhf WPXN-DT 31.1 i NEW YORK NY 233° 17.0 30

yellow - uhf WNYW-DT 5.1 FOX NEW YORK NY 234° 14.1 44

yellow - uhf WPIX-DT 11.1 WB NEW YORK NY 234° 14.1 33

yellow - uhf WXTV-DT 41.1 UNI PATERSON NJ 234° 14.1 40

yellow - uhf WNJU-DT 36 TEL LINDEN NJ 233° 17.0 36

yellow - uhf WCBS-DT 2.1 CBS NEW YORK NY 234° 14.1 56

yellow - uhf WABC-DT 7.1 ABC NEW YORK NY 236° 13.7 45

green - uhf WNBC-DT 4.1 NBC NEW YORK NY 236° 13.4 28

blue - uhf WFUT-DT 68.1 TFA NEWARK NJ 236° 13.7 53

violet - uhf WNET-DT 13.1 PBS NEWARK NJ 234° 14.1 61


Thank you!


Tim


----------



## glaesemann

I forgot to add that the antenna will go on the roof of my 6 story condo with unobstructed view. This is where the HD dish already is.


Looking forward to your help.


Thank you!


Tim


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *glaesemann* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I forgot to add that the antenna will go on the roof of my 6 story condo with unobstructed view. This is where the HD dish already is.
> 
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> 
> Tim



In your case the DB2 should work. The 7777 preamp may be too much gain because you are line of sight to so many strong stations. Signal strength wise the DB2 and the Square Shooter are similar. It is possible that the amplifier in the Square Shooter could be overloaded. The need for an amplifier depends on the length of the coax and the number of times that you will be splitting the signal before your TV set. For less than 100' of RG6 and no splitter I'd expect it to work without a preamp. If you want a preamp the new Winegard HDP-269 is designed to work in locations such as yours.


The only variable is if there are other buildings nearby that cause reflections. The solution would be a larger antenna than the DB2 such as the Channel Master 4228. No premap will be needed with the 4228 unless you are feeding a signal to every tenant in the building.


----------



## plorell

I'm looking for some guidance in the DTV off air antenna arena...


I live in the DC Metro area and recently bought an indoor off air HD antenna just to see what my new HDTV would pick up. I connected it to my ANT input and picked up no less than 36 channels originating from both DC Metro and Baltimore Metro areas.


DTV will be coming out in a week to install an HD Tivo Box and an outdoor off air antenna that will be connecting directly to the Tivo box to provide DC Metro off air HD channels.


My question...


If I decide to connect my current indoor off air antenna to the Tivo box instead of DTV's outdoor antenna, will I be able to access ALL of the off air HD channels (DC and Balt. Metro) that I am currently getting via the new HD Tivo box program guide or will DTV limit me to DC Metro channels only?


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *plorell* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> My question...
> 
> 
> If I decide to connect my current indoor off air antenna to the Tivo box instead of DTV's outdoor antenna, will I be able to access ALL of the off air HD channels (DC and Balt. Metro) that I am currently getting via the new HD Tivo box program guide or will DTV limit me to DC Metro channels only?



you may have to enter 2 different zip codes but can just use the same antenna as you are using now. The guide data is by zip code and you have a primary and secondary you can choose on the HDtivo.


I wouldn't bother with their antenna if yours works that good. Unless it's free...then i guess can't hurt to try


----------



## glaesemann




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Signal strength wise the DB2 and the Square Shooter are similar. It is possible that the amplifier in the Square Shooter could be overloaded.



I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that the SS1000/Square Shooter did not have an amplifier, but the SS2000 did.


How can I read the signal strength I am receiving?


Thank you!


Tim


----------



## m_wilcox

I posted this in my local OTA thread, but they suggested I post it here.


ok everyone, I just bought a plasma tv and am trying to receive the Chicago HD locals, with no luck. I have tried the Radioshack 15 1880 that I have read so many good things about and that was worse than the Terk HDTVi that I initially purchased. I could receive CBS and NBC sometimes, but the pixelization would start shortly after getting a picture. I can see the antennas on top of the John Hancock from my window. I live in the River North area. Do any of you have suggestions? I"m in a high rise so an outdoor antenna is not an option, and my building has a contract with at DirecTV multi- dwelling provider that has a "master dish" on the roof so I can't add a OTA antenna to the dish.


Thanks for all of your help.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *glaesemann* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that the SS1000/Square Shooter did not have an amplifier, but the SS2000 did.
> 
> 
> How can I read the signal strength I am receiving?
> 
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> 
> Tim



Seeing as all your stations are less than 20 miles and are all UHF, and you have a clear line of sight, I think the SS-1000 should work perfectly fine unless, like TowerGuy says, you're over 100 ft, and splitting the signal a bunch. Otherwise, everything else he says applies.


----------



## Solfan

"There's HDTV In Them Thar Hills"


This article is a good read and might encourage those trying to get OTA signals in difficult locations:

http://ultimateavmag.com/howto/405hdtv/


----------



## dyne

I live in an apartment and use a zenith silver sensor. I cannot use an outdoor antenna or anything, and the antenna is in the best place I can find


When I try to watch ABC in HD, I can *almost* get it ok. The signal strength hovers around high 50s% (I can watch FOX in HD fine at mid 60s%)


Is there anything I can cheaply do to bump up the reception for ABC? maybe some sort of amplifier?


----------



## jmcohen23

Hello all,


this my first time here, and I'm trying to find out if I'm doing something wrong my HDTV. I have a Samsung TX3271H Dynaflat tv (HD tuner built-in). I installed an antenna to my roof, and connected it to the tv set in order to receive the free over-the-air HD broadcasts. So far, most of the stations (that are available for my area) come in great, and then some. However, others (like ABC and WNUV) do not show a picture. When I check the signal strength through my tv set, it shows a strong signal strength, but no picture. When I fidget with the coxial cables, the picture may come in, but I'll lose another station. I tried using the "monster" coaxial cables, ferrite cores, and anneuator filters, but they did not show any improvement.


Does anyone have any suggestions or had a similar experience?


thanks!


--jason


----------



## SnellKrell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dyne* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live in an apartment and use a zenith silver sensor. I cannot use an outdoor antenna or anything, and the antenna is in the best place I can find
> 
> 
> When I try to watch ABC in HD, I can *almost* get it ok. The signal strength hovers around high 50s% (I can watch FOX in HD fine at mid 60s%)
> 
> 
> Is there anything I can cheaply do to bump up the reception for ABC? maybe some sort of amplifier?




You don't provide enough information!


Your location is Central New York - where are you?


How close are you to the transmission sites?


Are there buildings, mountains, etc. in the way of line-of-sight from your antenna to the transmitting towers?


If you are fairly close, a pre-amp or amp more than likely will overload your tuner and will do more harm than good.


I also use the Silver Sensor - in the canyons of Manhattan - filled with multipath -

you have to walk your antenna around your room to find "sweet spots" for the various channels. Usually, the higher the position, the better.


If you buy amplification, make sure you can return the item if it doesn't work.


Hope this helps a bit.


Gary


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jmcohen23* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When I fidget with the coxial cables, the picture may come in, but I'll lose another station.



Sounds like a bad connection. Check your connection at the antenna. Try replacing the cable. If neither of these work, something is probably loose within the set itself.


Wiggling the cable (RG-6, right?) shouldn't change your reception.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jmcohen23* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> 
> this my first time here, and I'm trying to find out if I'm doing something wrong my HDTV. I have a Samsung TX3271H Dynaflat tv (HD tuner built-in). I installed an antenna to my roof, and connected it to the tv set in order to receive the free over-the-air HD broadcasts. So far, most of the stations (that are available for my area) come in great, and then some. However, others (like ABC and WNUV) do not show a picture. When I check the signal strength through my tv set, it shows a strong signal strength, but no picture. When I fidget with the coxial cables, the picture may come in, but I'll lose another station. I tried using the "monster" coaxial cables, ferrite cores, and anneuator filters, but they did not show any improvement.
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any suggestions or had a similar experience?
> 
> 
> thanks!--jason



What type of antenna are you using? Do you have a preamp? Are you using any splitters? Can you look at the analog UHF stations, do you see noise, ghosting, or interference? What is your zip code? Are you interested in Baltimore stations only or DC as well?


----------



## plorell

I'm using a Terk indoor for OTA reception going directly to my TV. The signal I receive is very strong for several Wash, DC / Balt, MD stations. I would like to introduce a DirecTV HD DVR and do the install myself.


Can I use a splitter on the indoor antenna, running one line to the TV and one to the DVR?...or will that setup result in a weak signal for both the TV and the DVR?


Any help is appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## plorell

I'm using a Terk indoor for OTA reception going directly to my TV. The signal I receive is very strong for several Wash, DC / Balt, MD stations. I would like to introduce a DirecTV HD DVR and do the install myself.


Can I use a splitter on the indoor antenna, running one line to the TV and one to the DVR?...or will that setup result in a weak signal for both the TV and the DVR?


Any help is appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## georgemoe




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *plorell* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm using a Terk indoor for OTA reception going directly to my TV. The signal I receive is very strong for several Wash, DC / Balt, MD stations. I would like to introduce a DirecTV HD DVR and do the install myself.
> 
> 
> Can I use a splitter on the indoor antenna, running one line to the TV and one to the DVR?...or will that setup result in a weak signal for both the TV and the DVR?
> 
> 
> Any help is appreciated. Thanks.



I wouldn't even use a splitter. The HR10-250 has two ATSC tuners built in (one input) along with the two sat tuners. Just go direct from your Terk to that.


----------



## plorell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *georgemoe* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I wouldn't even use a splitter. The HR10-250 has two ATSC tuners built in (one input) along with the two sat tuners. Just go direct from your Terk to that.




Thanks. I do want to continue my current OTA setup (connected to the ANT input on my TV) after hooking up the HD DVR. Simply because I would like the option to record two channels and watch another live channel at the same time.


Will a splitter help me in this scenario?


BTW my antenna is of the "amplified" variety.


----------



## MOCKBA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *308wl* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I recently bought a Philips 50 inch plasma TV with built-in HDTV tuner for OTA reception of HD signals. This was my first venture into HD so I had much questions regarding how to get OTA HD signals. I found AVSforum most helpful regarding all my questions. However, I was told that if I live in a large city such as Los Angeles and my non-HD reception was adequate then I would not have to buy any
> 
> ........
> 
> After reading this site and AVS forum and other reviews, I finally settled on trying Terk HDTVi, an un-amplified antenna with some skepticism since I had no luck with all my rabbit ears.
> 
> 
> .........
> 
> Of course each owners' result will vary from location to location but I am most amazed and pleased with this unit esp. given its very reasonable price. Try it and hopefully your get as good of result as I have. I am very happy.



Thank you for sharing your experience. I tried most of antennas I could buy in Radioshack, however wasn't satisfied with result. I live very close to SF and no buildings or mountains between. Unfortunately, mentioned antenna wasn't in stock in my local CC, so I tried another amplified Terk. It was much worse than the cheapest I bought from RS. I've ordered mentioned Terk and will give it a try, then I'll share my experience too.


----------



## georgemoe




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *plorell* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks. I do want to continue my current OTA setup (connected to the ANT input on my TV) after hooking up the HD DVR. Simply because I would like the option to record two channels and watch another live channel at the same time.
> 
> 
> Will a splitter help me in this scenario?
> 
> 
> BTW my antenna is of the "amplified" variety.



That will work fine for what you describe.


----------



## dyne




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gary Press* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You don't provide enough information!
> 
> 
> Your location is Central New York - where are you?
> 
> 
> How close are you to the transmission sites?
> 
> 
> Are there buildings, mountains, etc. in the way of line-of-sight from your antenna to the transmitting towers?
> 
> 
> If you are fairly close, a pre-amp or amp more than likely will overload your tuner and will do more harm than good.
> 
> 
> I also use the Silver Sensor - in the canyons of Manhattan - filled with multipath -
> 
> you have to walk your antenna around your room to find "sweet spots" for the various channels. Usually, the higher the position, the better.
> 
> 
> If you buy amplification, make sure you can return the item if it doesn't work.
> 
> 
> Hope this helps a bit.
> 
> 
> Gary



I'm at school in Geneseo, NY. The transmitting towers are 27 miles away. There are a couple old buildings and maybe a large hill between me and the towers


I have also moved the antenna around the room (around the whole apartment, actually) and not found any better locations for the antenna


----------



## TVSaurus

Does fog effect signal reception? Fog has been bad on the Gulf Coast the last two nights and my normally good signals from New Orleans have been near zero especially in the mornings when its dense.


----------



## bfoster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gary McCoy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ( However, if your house burns down an ungrounded antenna installed by a homeowner can be grounds to deny insurance coverage.)
> 
> Gary




Horses##t!


----------



## DMBox

I have read numerous positions on grounding throughout this thread, and I thought I would leave a little food for thought... As far as outdoors goes, you are foolish to not properly ground your rig. Second, always use home runs (separate individual ground runs) from both antenna base as well as coaxial grounding blocks to your service entrance, (the electrical service provided to your home) not to separate grounding rods. (all grounds must couple at the same termination point, so that you one, do not setup ground loops, and two, building code requires it)


The purposes for grounding your antenna is not to make it lightning proof. Nothing will survive a direct or indirect strike. Period. The reason for grounding removes the unwanted fields of static electricity around the antenna from becoming a magnet for potential. But grounding also provides other important benefits. Metal ungrounded in close proximity of your antenna, does infact become an antenna itself. It can, if within a few feet, couple with your antenna. So no matter if it is inside the attic, or out on the roof, metal objects close to your antenna can induce it's own fields. By grounding your attic mount you remove that potential, and insure a grounded plane close to your antenna's elements. Out on the roof, try to keep guy wires at least 4 foot from your antenna to insure they too don't couple with the antenna.


Happy motoring...


NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVSaurus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does fog effect signal reception? Fog has been bad on the Gulf Coast the last two nights and my normally good signals from New Orleans have been near zero especially in the mornings when its dense.



Fog by itself does not cause much extra signal loss. What may be happening is that the fog is an indication of odd temperature and humidity layers at various heights. These layers can bend the signal in unusual ways.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Fog by itself does not cause much extra signal loss. What may be happening is that the fog is an indication of odd temperature and humidity layers at various heights. These layers can bend the signal in unusual ways.



Fog usually enhances signals to a large degree.However,the enhancment may cover a very large area causing co-channel interference,which will wipe out a local signal in the process.As it's doing here this morning.Of course,us Dxers love this kind of stuff.Back to the dials


----------



## DMBox




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Fog usually enhances signals to a large degree.However,the enhancment may cover a very large area causing co-channel interference,which will wipe out a local signal in the process.As it's doing here this morning.Of course,us Dxers love this kind of stuff.Back to the dials



Welcome to the wonderful world of terrestrial signals. Keep the sunny side of the dials pointing upwards...











APATHY ERROR: Don't bother striking any key.


----------



## Redux

Edited to add: this is probably not the right place to post this. I was up most of the night wrestling with this and I'm tired. I'll move it later.


I have a bunch of digital UHF stations (31,33,35 [very very strong],55) and a VHF (12) all north, and a very strong VHF (10) to the west. An un-amplified CM4228 8 bay bowtie UHF pointed north gets all of these, VHF included, quite well to my DirecTV/Tivo 250 HD receiver.


There is also one UHF (39) to the southwest that reads virtually not at all on the signal quality meter of the receiver. I cannot re-point the rooftop 4228 to get 39 without losing a couple of the others. But I can get that 39 with a simple UHF loop antenna very well at a window near the receiver. Sounds like my solution should be easy, but I can't make it work.


When I run RG-6 from the UHF loop through a coupler (I have tried 5 different types) to the receiver, 39 comes in fine. I can even orient the loop so there is very little quality signal on _any_ of the other channels. When I run a line from the rooftop through the coupler to the receiver I get all the others. But when I plug them both into the coupler at the same time, 39 disappears. There is also some slight attenuation of the others but that's no problem.


Why don't the lines combine?


A switch won't work because the Tivo is frequently recording from 39 at the same time it's recording from the other direction. If I amplify the loop antenna (with a CM7777) I get 39 OK but I lose 2 or 3 of the stations from the 4228. Interference. Overload. Voodoo.


I have tried a number of rooftop solutions with a mast mounted coupler and a small UHF antenna pointed SW. That works a lot better, 39 is no longer a problem, but no matter what I have tried with preamps and coupler combinations I can't get everything at the same time. The best combo gets me everything but 55 (though some stations read right at threshold); 55 is in and out. I have a CM Join-tenna tuned for 39 on order and possibly this might clean up the rooftop solution, which is very close to working.


But the loop antenna approach seems conceptually so simple: the 4228 gives me all but 39 perfectly; the loop gives me 39 perfectly. How can I make this work? Probably I've got interference, overload, where do I start? Attenuate 35 because it's overloading? I can do that with a Winegard tunable trap I suppose. The CM Join-tenna (tuned to 39) for the loop (that doesn't seem like it would help)? Do something about 10 because it's probably both overloading and bouncing all over the place? I don't know exactly how to deal with a digital VHF signal.


Worst nighmare of all: is this some kind of anomaly specific to my receiver? I have no other HD receiver of any kind to test that out.


I've been working on this off and on for a couple of weeks and reading all I can find. I read reports from people doing what seems to be exactly what I am doing and they say it works fine. Help appreciated.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVSaurus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does fog effect signal reception? Fog has been bad on the Gulf Coast the last two nights and my normally good signals from New Orleans have been near zero especially in the mornings when its dense.



It can kill it. I had such dense fog one morning, couldn't see 2 houses away, and totally wreaked havoc with my signals. But 'normal' fog isn't ever a problem for me. That day was just unusual


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Redux* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> the 4228 gives me all but 39 perfectly; the loop gives me 39 perfectly.



The 4228 is probably picking up some signal on channel 39. It's poor enough that your receiver can't do anything with it when you just have the 4228 connected, but it's strong enough to interfere with the signal on 39 from the loop when you connect both antennas. The "signal strength" meter in your receiver doesn't measure raw RF signal strength, but is instead some kind of measure of the quality of the demodulated digital signal.



> Quote:
> The CM Join-tenna (tuned to 39) for the loop (that doesn't seem like it would help)?



Why not? That's the first thing I would think of.


----------



## houselog442

I use a silver sensor antenna i got in the tallahassee area. I was using the new version that phillips has that has VHF dipoles and a built in amp. I can get ABC and CBS no problem but I could not pick up NBC. WTWC is broadcasting digitally on channel 2 and I got nothing but multipath interference. Doesnt appear rabbit ears are gonna work for me, even though i live only 17 miles from the tower. What am i to do?


----------



## houselog442

I use a silver sensor antenna i got in the tallahassee area. I was using the new version that phillips has that has VHF dipoles and a built in amp. I can get ABC and CBS no problem but I could not pick up NBC. WTWC is broadcasting digitally on channel 2 and I got nothing but multipath interference. Doesnt appear rabbit ears are gonna work for me, even though i live only 17 miles from the tower. What am i to do?


----------



## jjnv

Hi,


I am using Terk HDTVi for OTA HDTV. It does a good job. But I could not get all 4 channels I usually watch without moving the antenna. So I bought a Terk BIA-20 inline amplifier hoping it would boast the signal. I added it in between the antenna and my tuner (the Radio Shack Accurian) today. Signal strength dropped down to 0. I tried a few different cable, checked connection. I could not figure out what is wrong. As soon as I remove the amplifier, the signal strength went back to 63%.


Do I have a defective amplifier? Or this one is not designed to used this way?


Please help,


Jane


----------



## Redux




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Why not [the Join-tenna]? That's the first thing I would think of.



I had ordered the Join-tenna for 39 as a first gut reaction, so I will certainly try it. I have doubts, but this is all Outer imits to me.


----------



## Jesse31

Hello all,

Newbee here. I have a 50' telescoping tower and am looking for a source for 18 or 20 gauge guy wire in 100' lengths...(a couple of the guy wires will be over 50' feet long) all the guy wire I can find is in 50' lengths...can anyone point me to a source? I have tried all of the sites that come up in a google search and no luck. Also, I am looking to buy a UHF antenna to replace one that is 10 years old...the signals I want are about 110 miles away...I currently have a UHF 59 element deep fringe (unknown brand) at 43 feet and have been quite successful pulling in these long range signals. (I seem to be in a sweet spot for reception) Signal quality has steadily declined in the past several years and the antenna has taken a beating by hurricanes. With this telescoping tower I will be able to lower it to help prevent damage. I'm using a winegard 8780 preamp. I am considering the 91XG...would like to hear from users of this antenna. Can anyone offer real world comparisons of the 91XG, Antennacraft MXU59, Winegard PR-9032 and Winegard HD9095P?

Is there something better?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jesse31* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can anyone offer real world comparisons of the 91XG, Antennacraft MXU59, Winegard PR-9032 and Winegard HD9095P?



I'd do a search on those antennas and see what you can find. My experience is that the 91XG is a top performer, although I haven't tried any of the other antennas you list. Durability may be a factor for some, though I haven't seen a problem in 18 months of operation. Real-world comparisons are typically worthless due to the variable nature of reception - you cannot place two antennas in exactly the same place at exactly the same time, and thus you cannot know for certain that one antenna is better than the other without knowing all the variables that might impact reception (and most are unknowable to the average person.) Computer modeling is the best way to know which antenna is the best, verified by satisfied customers. (In other words, if computer models show that antenna X gets the best reception, but almost everyone who tries it has nothing but problems, you should avoid antenna X.)


If you're getting good results with your current antenna, odds are good you don't need a top-of-the-line model, and any of the ones you listed would work okay.


If it were me, I'd get the 91XG and be happy.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jesse31* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> Newbee here. I have a 50' telescoping tower and am looking for a source for 18 or 20 gauge guy wire in 100' lengths...(a couple of the guy wires will be over 50' feet long) all the guy wire I can find is in 50' lengths...can anyone point me to a source? I have tried all of the sites that come up in a google search and no luck. Also, I am looking to buy a UHF antenna to replace one that is 10 years old...the signals I want are about 110 miles away...I currently have a UHF 59 element deep fringe (unknown brand) at 43 feet and have been quite successful pulling in these long range signals. (I seem to be in a sweet spot for reception) Signal quality has steadily declined in the past several years and the antenna has taken a beating by hurricanes. With this telescoping tower I will be able to lower it to help prevent damage. I'm using a winegard 8780 preamp. I am considering the 91XG...would like to hear from users of this antenna. Can anyone offer real world comparisons of the 91XG, Antennacraft MXU59, Winegard PR-9032 and Winegard HD9095P?
> 
> Is there something better?



Would need more info on the tower before making any guy material recommendations,like brand,type(steel or aluminum),number of sections,etc.


As far as antennas,the 91XG would be the best of the group you mentioned,but it may make a difference depending on what specific channels you're after.Digital,analog,what are they,with call letters if you know?


----------



## jon_dahl

Does anyone know if I can use a combiner to combine the signal of two digital/HD antennas? I've used one in the past on analog signals but I'd like to get my signal up closer to 100% and thought I might give a this a try.


----------



## Jesse31

Galvanized steel with 5 sections. Right now I'm still using analog only...here are the stations...looks like they are a little closer than I thought:

WLFL 22 WB RALEIGH NC 96.9

WPXU 35 i JACKSONVILLE NC 56.3

WFXI 8 FOX MOREHEAD CITY NC 47.4

WRDC 28 UPN DURHAM NC 81.0

WRAZ 50 FOX RALEIGH NC 81.0

WRAL 5 CBS RALEIGH NC 81.0


I assume these station either are or will go digital...so by the end of this year I hope to be digital.


----------



## Jesse31

Also I noticed that most often the recomendation on a preamp is Channel Master...are Winegards inferior to them?..just wondering.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jesse31* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can anyone offer real world comparisons of the 91XG, Antennacraft MXU59, Winegard PR-9032 and Winegard HD9095P?
> 
> Is there something better?



Jesse,

It looks like at least one of the stations will be broadcasting using VHF(WFXI - 8), so I'd consider a good VHF/UHF Combo. The Winegard 8200P is a big sucker(177") and it is a very good antenna. It also has decent UHF specs. In my personal comparison with the 91XG, the 91 might, I say might, have been slightly better for UHF.


I also compared the 91 to a CM 4228, and it was basically a toss up.



> Quote:
> Also I noticed that most often the recomendation on a preamp is Channel Master...are Winegards inferior to them?..just wondering.



Not necessarily. The CM's do have less noise which is important.

....jc


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jesse31* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also I noticed that most often the recomendation on a preamp is Channel Master...are Winegards inferior to them?..just wondering.



Winegards overload less - good if you're close to transmitters or FM stations. Channel Masters have lower noise which yields better results as long as it doesn't overload.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The Winegard 8200P is a big sucker(177") and it is a very good antenna. It also has decent UHF specs. In my personal comparison with the 91XG, the 91 might, I say might, have been slightly better for UHF.



I replaced my 8200P with a 91XG. Inside of 50 miles, it was a tossup. For long distance reception, the 91XG was the slam-dunk winner.


To get channel 8, a better choice would either be a single channel antenna, or a VHF-Hi only like the Winegard YA-1713. A lot of the 8200P's bulk is for lo-VHF that very few people will need.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *houselog442* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I use a silver sensor antenna i got in the tallahassee area. I was using the new version that phillips has that has VHF dipoles and a built in amp. I can get ABC and CBS no problem but I could not pick up NBC. WTWC is broadcasting digitally on channel 2 and I got nothing but multipath interference. Doesnt appear rabbit ears are gonna work for me, even though i live only 17 miles from the tower. What am i to do?



Just for the record, when I use the Silver Sensor with an added-on amp, I get practically everything from 40 miles out. When I tried that Philips antenna you mention, I got practically nothing (with the same conditions). The Radio Shack 15-1880 gets me the same results as the amped SS, and has pretty good working rabbit ears, too. Unfortunately, they might be hard to find now since they've been recently discontinued. But I don't really think either setup would help you much with major multipath problems anyway.


----------



## newsposter

For anyone that hasn't purchased an antenna yet. See where your TV stations will wind up in 2009. It may make your decision for an antenna more difficult

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...-05-2649A2.pdf


----------



## Jesse31

So can anyone give a source for 18 gauge guy wire in 100' lengths?


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jesse31* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So can anyone give a source for 18 gauge guy wire in 100' lengths?



Just go to a hardware store and get galvanized or stainless steel wire rope(cable) and get each piece you need cut to length.The wire you're talking about sounds more like antenna mast guy wire.


Where on the tower are you going to attach the guy wire? Most multi-section steel crank-ups are designed to be free-standing.


The Winegard 8780 V/U preamp you now have indicates you already have a VHF antenna? It's a good amp.As long as it's functional,keep using it.Your antenna choices depend on whether you want/need the lowband 2-6 channels.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jesse31* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also I noticed that most often the recomendation on a preamp is Channel Master...are Winegards inferior to them?..just wondering.



The Channel Master 7777 has high ratings due to extremely low noise figure. It's weakness is high gain that tends to cause overload when one or more of the signals are very strong. In most cases the gain is excessive. In rural areas it can't be beat.


The Winegard HDP-269 is slightly higher noise figure than the 7777, but it's gain is modest. It is the best preamp for areas that are close to one or more TV tower.


These are two extreme cases.


There are also models that do UHF only or VHF only preamplification. These may be selected in special cases. I have a Winegard AP-4700 that I use on an all channel antenna. It amplifies UHF but bypasses VHF. I am 8 miles from the Albany towers. The HDP-269 was not available when I bought the AP-4700.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There are also models that do UHF only or VHF only preamplification.



Choose carefully! Winegards amplify one band and pass the other. Channel Masters amplify one band and block the other.


Thus, if you need UHF amplification, but want VHF to "pass through" the amp, you'll have to buy a Winegard.


----------



## Jesse31

The winegard I have amplifies VHF at 17 db and UHF at 28 db. I already have a VHF antenna. My tower is a telescoping that is pushed up by hand. I am indeed looking for antenna mast guy wire, but I cannot find it in a length longer than 50' anywhere.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jesse31* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...I have a 50' telescoping tower and am looking for a source for 18 or 20 gauge guy wire in 100' lengths...(a couple of the guy wires will be over 50' feet long) all the guy wire I can find is in 50' lengths...can anyone point me to a source?



I think that when Channel Master furnishes a 1000' case of guy wire, the 20 coils are continuous, so if you ordered six coils, you would be getting a three hundred foot continuous length, as long as they did not cut it into six separate coils.


Try calling Mark Electronics in Beltsville, MD. I think I once bought a box of twenty coils from them that were continuous, and the person you talk to there will probably be the same person who actually pulls the order, so if they still stock it that way, he may be able to make sure that they don't needlessly sever your purchase into separate coils.


----------



## stombujotz

I recently made the jump to HDTV and have a triple LNB satellite dish.....I want to be able to get the local channels without giving Direct TV more of my hard earned money....is there any difference between them..or are they all about the same...I saw an RCA antenna that was about seventy dollars and advertised that it could be installed in minutes......any help is appreciated....Rich


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stombujotz* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I recently made the jump to HDTV and have a triple LNB satellite dish.....I want to be able to get the local channels without giving Direct TV more of my hard earned money....is there any difference between them..or are they all about the same...I saw an RCA antenna that was about seventy dollars and advertised that it could be installed in minutes......any help is appreciated....Rich



Each installation is unique. It depends primarily on the distance to the TV towers and the terrain between you and the towers. Next you need to learn if your location requires a UHF only anttenna, or a VHF/UHF combo. The best location for an antenna is on the roof, the second choice is in the attic. Atttic installations usually require a larger antenna to make up for the signal loss through the roof. Set top antennas are fussy and may require constant adjustment if they work at all.


In many areas a Channel Master 3016 works fine for VHF/UHF and costs about $30. UHF only antennas run from $20-$50.


Go to antennaweb.org and enter your address. It will tell you most of what you need to know about the type of antenna will work properly.


----------



## houselog442




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just for the record, when I use the Silver Sensor with an added-on amp, I get practically everything from 40 miles out. When I tried that Philips antenna you mention, I got practically nothing (with the same conditions). The Radio Shack 15-1880 gets me the same results as the amped SS, and has pretty good working rabbit ears, too. Unfortunately, they might be hard to find now since they've been recently discontinued. But I don't really think either setup would help you much with major multipath problems anyway.



You think the RS's rabbit ears do any improvement compared to the phillips antenna with the rabbit ears? How is the 15-1880 compare to the old 15-1862 that i read really good reviews for? thanks


----------



## Rammitinski

Every Philips and RCA set top antenna I tried didn't even come close to the 15-1880. Maybe if you're real close to the transmitters, but not for me. If you search this forum you will find that the 3 indoor set top type antennas most people have had success with are the 15-1880, the Silver Sensor and the $15.00 Radio Shack double bowtie. And even though most of their stuff sucks, some people have reported some success with the Terk HDTVa (but NOT the un-amped HDTVi version. Terk also makes an amped huge bowtie model which may work for some who are close to the towers, but I've never really known of anyone on this forum who has tried it). The 15-1862 is just an older, no longer available version of the 15-1880, although I think that the amp may have been a tad stronger. They do say that the 15-1880 can still be found in stores, just not from the website. You'll probably have to do what myself and everyone else around here has had to do, and that is try as many as you can until you find one that's satisfactory, but make sure you can return them with no problem.


----------



## KB9KXH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVSaurus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does fog effect signal reception? Fog has been bad on the Gulf Coast the last two nights and my normally good signals from New Orleans have been near zero especially in the mornings when its dense.



fog does effect signals up around 2.4GHz but its not usually a problem at the frequencies in the tv broadcast band. one reason microwave ovens use frequencies up there is because water absorbs them so well. moisture can effect your grounding system and as another post has mentions temperature inversions can produce tropospheric ducting of the signals over very long distances.


----------



## Jesse31

Is anyone using the Research Communications type 9250 HDTV ('F' sockets) preamplifier? Specs are as follows:

BAND - UHF

FREQUENCY - 470-862 MHz. (USA 470-800 MHz.)

NOISE FIGURE - 0.4 dB.

GAIN - 20 dB.

FLATNESS - +/- 1 dB.

MAX. OUTPUT - 127 dB microvolts.

MATCHING - Return loss 14 dB. V.S.W.R. 1.5:1

IMPEDANCE - 75 ohms.

CONNECTORS - F sockets.

POWER - +12V. DC @ 70 ma approx.


----------



## bt-rtp

Needs more cow bell!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jesse31* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is anyone using the Research Communications type 9250 HDTV ('F' sockets) preamplifier? Specs are as follows:
> 
> BAND - UHF
> 
> FREQUENCY - 470-862 MHz. (USA 470-800 MHz.)
> 
> NOISE FIGURE - 0.4 dB.
> 
> GAIN - 20 dB.
> 
> FLATNESS - +/- 1 dB.
> 
> MAX. OUTPUT - 127 dB microvolts.
> 
> MATCHING - Return loss 14 dB. V.S.W.R. 1.5:1
> 
> IMPEDANCE - 75 ohms.
> 
> CONNECTORS - F sockets.
> 
> POWER - +12V. DC @ 70 ma approx.


----------



## Bluestraw

I finaly got around to setting up my HD setup, and I'm using an internal antenna connected to a PC for the reception... I have a signal strength meter on the PC which is giving me readings in mdb - some stations are negative, some positive. Can someone give me an idea what sort of numbers I should look for?


----------



## bt-rtp

Hey Bluestraw


What hardware and software are you using in the PC to have a signal strength meter ?





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bluestraw* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I finaly got around to setting up my HD setup, and I'm using an internal antenna connected to a PC for the reception... I have a signal strength meter on the PC which is giving me readings in mdb - some stations are negative, some positive. Can someone give me an idea what sort of numbers I should look for?


----------



## Bluestraw

I'm using a Vbox Cats Eye USB, and it comes with a handy little utility for measuring signal strength and quality. You just enter the channel #, and it provides realtime stats on the signal!


----------



## Neil L

Bluestraw,

Go over to the HTPC forum and someone there can probably tell you what the Cats Eye utility is actually displaying. Usually the "dB" and "%" numbers that DTV tuners display is not really a signal strenght or signal/noise value, but rather one derived from the tuner's evaluation of the A/D processing, and displayed in some rather meaningless fashion.


----------



## Bluestraw

Will do - thanks!


----------



## ctdish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jesse31* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is anyone using the Research Communications type 9250 HDTV ('F' sockets) preamplifier?.



I installed one of these last summer. It replaced an AP4700. I got a 5-10 point improvement in signal strength reading. A snowy analog had much less snow. In the direction of a strong signal I have overload with either preamp. John


----------



## Jesse31

ctdish (John)

I would like to know where I could purchase a 9250 preamp.


----------



## Jesse31

Also,

I would like opinions on which of these pre-amps would be most effective:

Winegard 8780 - 28db UHF with noise figure of 2.7db

or

Research Comm 9250 - 20db UHF with noise figure of 0.4db


What I'm asking is which factor is THE most important...gain or noise factor...will the higher gain of the Wingard with higher noise be comparable to the 9250 with lower gain but better noise figure. If this is a dumb question, please forgive my ignorance...I am just starting to learn. Thanks.


----------



## bt-rtp

Hi Neil


Can you specifically reference the particular post that details this subject with a link for us ? Thank you.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil Laffoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Bluestraw,
> 
> Go over to the HTPC forum and someone there can probably tell you what the Cats Eye utility is actually displaying. Usually the "dB" and "%" numbers that DTV tuners display is not really a signal strenght or signal/noise value, but rather one derived from the tuner's evaluation of the A/D processing, and displayed in some rather meaningless fashion.


----------



## ctdish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jesse31* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ctdish (John)
> 
> I would like to know where I could purchase a 9250 preamp.



I purchased it from Research Comm. I E-Mailed them and they will accept a credit card.

In many cases 28 dB is too much and the preamp clipps which can destroy reception on most digital channels. In my case 20 dB is too much if I aim at a strong station. Some preamps sold for digital reception have about 10 dB of gain.

If the local noise received by the antenna is low a lower noise figure is the way to go. John


----------



## Hoopnoop

Hi all!


I am new to this forum and am an avid HD viewer. I currently have an OTA only set up using a Winegard Sensar antenna that was installed when I had Voom. I am about 25 miles west of Washington, DC and pick up those stations pretty well. I am also about 45 miles southwest of Baltimore and occasionally pick up those stations (its about a 40 degree difference in angle between the cities). Anyway, I would like to upgrade to a better antenna such as a CM 4221 or 4228. I was hoping to angle it so as to pick up both DC and Baltimore without needing to rotate the antenna. I have two questions: (1) What antenna would you recommend for trying to pick up both cities? and (2) Is self-installation of the antenna hard? I was hoping that I could install the antenna simply by mounting the new antenna and attaching the existing coaxial setup to the new antenna. Does this make sense?


thanks in advance for any advice


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jesse31* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What I'm asking is which factor is THE most important...gain or noise factor...will the higher gain of the Wingard with higher noise be comparable to the 9250 with lower gain but better noise figure. If this is a dumb question, please forgive my ignorance...I am just starting to learn. Thanks.



All tuners have some resistance to the incoming signal, commonly referred to as the noise factor of the receiver. For typical NTSC tuners, this is around 10dB on UHF. That's not a bad number to start with. Then you have insertion loss from each F connector of around .5dB. Splitters cost you 3.5dB. And then there is line loss between the antenna and the receiver, which varies by cable type.


Add all those up and you have the noise you must overcome in amplifying a signal such that the signal received by the tuner's decoder is no weaker than that received at the antenna itself. Anything above this is wasted, as the automatic gain control circuit will just chop it down to size.


Preamps themselves create some noise in amplification, and the higher this number, the less like the original signal the amplified signal will be.


So, as long as you're under or at the noise floor for your receiving system, the amplification is more important. Once you reach that point, any more amplification is moot and noise factor becomes more important. If you've done everything right and your cable length is under 250' or so, 20dB is more than enough.


Of course, if you only need 1/10 the received signal power to lock onto the signal, any amplification is a waste of time. The above really only applies to a "worst case" scenario, and if your signals are stronger than your receive system's resistance, then you only need to make up the difference between the two.


I'm sure someone who knows more than me can convert all the above into dBmv, which is what really matters, but I haven't taken the time to learn that part of antenna lore yet.


----------



## ST RICH

Is it possible to catch a digital television broadcast on the same frequency as an analog television broadcast? There is a local station that is broadcasting on UHF -46 (tower within 15 miles) that I pick up. I am interested in catching the digital broadcast from a station 60 miles away, but they are broadcasting on UHF-46. They will be moving to VHF - 9 in 2009, but for now they are broadcasting on UHF-46. I am able to catch a digital station broadcasting 60 miles away in the same direction, but they are broadcasting on UHF 34. Thanks...


----------



## ctdish

In general if you can see even a very snowy analog channel with the antenna aimed at a digital station, the digital station will be unreceivable. John


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jesse31* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also,
> 
> I would like opinions on which of these pre-amps would be most effective:
> 
> Winegard 8780 - 28db UHF with noise figure of 2.7db
> 
> or
> 
> Research Comm 9250 - 20db UHF with noise figure of 0.4db
> 
> 
> What I'm asking is which factor is THE most important...gain or noise factor...will the higher gain of the Wingard with higher noise be comparable to the 9250 with lower gain but better noise figure. If this is a dumb question, please forgive my ignorance...I am just starting to learn. Thanks.




The question is simple, the answer is not. It most cases the lower noise figure wins. Higher gain wins when the feedline loss is high. Theorectically, with the two preamps listed the feedline loss would have to be about 14 db or more for the 8780 to beat the 9250. Then there is a third factor, the black body radiation from the earth. It radiates noise at 300 degrees Kelvin, which equates to about a 3 db noise figure. That fact minimizes the theoretical advantage of the lower noise figure when the antenna is aimed at the horizon. The super low noise figures are most useful with satellite reception where black body radiation is negligable.


----------



## Snyder81

I get 5 local HD & SD digitals. 2 of the 5 channels have dramatic signal strength variance if a split the signal.


Here are the channels I receive courtesy of AntennaWeb.org:


* yellow - uhf KVEW-DT 44.1 ABC KENNEWICK WA 149° 12.6 44

* yellow - uhf KTNW-DT 31.1 PBS RICHLAND WA 148° 12.6 38

* green - uhf KNDU-DT 25.1 NBC RICHLAND WA 149° 12.6 26

* red - uhf KEPR-DT 19.1 CBS PASCO WA 162° 12.6 18

* blue - vhf KFFX-DT 11.1 FOX PENDLETON OR 105° 66.5 8


When the signal from the antenna is not split, here are the signal strengths I get:

44.1 - High 70's

31.1 - 90's

25.1 - 90's

19.1 - Mid 60's

11.1 - Mid 60's


Here's the problem...when I split the antenna source signal, channels 11.1 and 19.1 have a major signal strength drop(from mid-60's to mid 20's) and this causes occasional audio dropouts.


What kind of booster/preamp do I need so it doesn't boost the other signals too high but does boost 11.1 and 19.1 to they are strong enough?


Thanks!


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jesse31* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also, I would like opinions on which of these pre-amps would be most effective:
> 
> 
> Winegard 8780 - 28db UHF with noise figure of 2.7db
> 
> or
> 
> Research Comm 9250 - 20db UHF with noise figure of 0.4db
> 
> 
> What I'm asking is which factor is THE most important...gain or noise factor...will the higher gain of the Wingard with higher noise be comparable to the 9250 with lower gain but better noise figure. If this is a dumb question, please forgive my ignorance...I am just starting to learn. Thanks.



Preamp Noise Figure and gain interact. The noise temperature Tn of two amplifiers in cascade is the noise temperature of the first plus the noise temperature of the second divided by the gain of the first:


Tn = T1 + T2/G1.


To convert Noise Figure(f) to noise temperature (Tn):


Tn = 290((10^(f/10)) - 1)


The 2.7 dB preamp has a noise temperature of 250K

The 0.4 dB preamp has a noise temperature of 28K.


Let's say that the Noise Figure of your receiver is 10 dB and your RG6 cable

loss is 2.5 dB for total Noise Figure of 12.5 dB. The receiver noise temperature

is 4867K


Then the system noise temperature for the 2.7 dB NF 28 dB gain preamp is:

250 + 4867/631 (28 dB) = 258K


The system noise temperature for the 0.4 dB NF 20 dB gain preamp is:

28 + 4867/100 (20 dB) = 76K


To convert from noise temperature back to Noise Figure:


NF = 10 log(1 + Tn/290)


So the system Noise Figure for the Winegard preamp is 2.76 dB and the system Noise Figure for the Research Comm preamp is 1.01 dB.


With the antenna pointing at the horizon (290K antenna temperature), the Research Comm preamp will give you 1.75 dB more signal to noise ratio.


Ron


----------



## ctdish

Ron,

Throw in a dB or two of loss between the antenna and preamp to account for the balum, SWR mismatch and cable loss and see what the improvement would be. The amount of snow reductiion I saw was signacificant probably more than a 3 dB of SNR increase. Also if a UHF antenna is pointed at the ground it will receive the 290 deg K of noise power, but when pointed at the horizon only half of the main lobe is aimed at the ground so perhaps more like 145 deg of noise whould be picked up. John


----------



## deno

I have a AD DB8 mounted about 25 ft outside. Rg6 cable and winegard 8200? preamp all running to my TV in the family room. Recently I have completed a bonus room upstairs above my garage that is a dedicated home theater room. My question is: is it possible to split my ota feed outside and run the other cable upstairs to my new room without defeating my preamp going to the family room? I don't care if the upstairs is amplified, but I do want to keep the amplified signal going in the family room. With the power supply for the preamp being inside in the family room, this would make things alot easier, but if I remember right, I think I've read somewhere that you can't split the signal before the preamp power supply. Any suggestions greatly appreciated.


Deno


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deno* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a AD DB8 mounted about 25 ft outside. Rg6 cable and winegard 8200? preamp all running to my TV in the family room. Recently I have completed a bonus room upstairs above my garage that is a dedicated home theater room. My question is: is it possible to split my ota feed outside and run the other cable upstairs to my new room without defeating my preamp going to the family room? I don't care if the upstairs is amplified, but I do want to keep the amplified signal going in the family room. With the power supply for the preamp being inside in the family room, this would make things alot easier, but if I remember right, I think I've read somewhere that you can't split the signal before the preamp power supply. Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> Deno



Look for a splitter that passes power from one output back to the input. They are common for satellite systems. Make sure it's rated down to the lowest frequency that you want to use. Channel 2 is 54 mhz. Channel 7 is 174 mhz. Channel 14 is 470 mhz.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ST RICH* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is it possible to catch a digital television broadcast on the same frequency as an analog television broadcast? There is a local station that is broadcasting on UHF -46 (tower within 15 miles) that I pick up. I am interested in catching the digital broadcast from a station 60 miles away, but they are broadcasting on UHF-46. They will be moving to VHF - 9 in 2009, but for now they are broadcasting on UHF-46. I am able to catch a digital station broadcasting 60 miles away in the same direction, but they are broadcasting on UHF 34. Thanks...



Yes, but the digital signal must be the same or stronger than the analog signal. That will be very difficult with the closer channel only 15 miles away.


If you happen to have some terrain between you and the 15 mile station but are clear to the 60 mile station and can use nulls in your antenna to knock down the strength of the closer signal then it is still a long shot.


----------



## davefre99

Its been awhile since I posted about this but I have a situation where I get better signal levels off the side of chm4228 antenna. I live about 60 miles from the LA Mt Wilson transmitters that most of my digital OTA comes from. I also have a high power Pbs station just 13 miles away in almost direct line to the future LA stations. For a long time now I have always figured that when I point my antenna straight at the LA stations the local PBS station was overpowering my distant ones. I am using a chm 7777 pre-amp because without it I get nothing. I also have a rat shack antenna rotor so I can move it inside. In playing around some time ago I was trying pointing my anttena towards the south to see if I could possibly get any San Deigo stations and I found that my LA stations actualy came in stronger when pointint the antenna almost exactly 90 deg. ofline to the south. I always figured that I was just getting a signal off the side lobes of the attenna vs a bounced signal off a hillside. Well I orderd two Join Tenna's , one for ch26 the digital PBS feed and one for ch24 the anolog output of of the same station. I installed then as traps per the instructions on the box comming straight of the antenna and then feeding the Pre-amp and set out to do some testing. To my amazement they really seem to make almost no difference at all accept the signal levels for the trapped channels are slightly lower but still very much there. I would have thought they would be gone alltogether. So now my thoughts are that maybe I just get a better signal bounced or multipathed of the side of the antenna and thats all I can do. Actualy it workes out pretty good all of the LA stations read between 70~80% using my Divco Fusion PC card as a reference. Maybe I will try a different pre-amp like the new wingard low noise one that people are talking about but I sorta think I might be waisting my time.

By the way I am mostly trying to get rid of some microstudder problems that I believe are signal related but I cant be sure.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deno* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a AD DB8 mounted about 25 ft outside. Rg6 cable and winegard 8200? preamp all running to my TV in the family room. Recently I have completed a bonus room upstairs above my garage that is a dedicated home theater room. My question is: is it possible to split my ota feed outside and run the other cable upstairs to my new room without defeating my preamp going to the family room? I don't care if the upstairs is amplified, but I do want to keep the amplified signal going in the family room. With the power supply for the preamp being inside in the family room, this would make things alot easier, but if I remember right, I think I've read somewhere that you can't split the signal before the preamp power supply. Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> Deno



You can split the cable interconnecting the Preamp to its Power Module anywhere along the way, using a "Satellite RF Splitter".

The "D.C. PASS" feature permits the power to go through the splitter, whereas the usual TV/Cable RF Splitter will not.


If you use the R-S 16-2568 or Zenith ZDS5010 (Lowes, et.al.), both ports are "D.C. PASS".

Make sure you don't have a short on the new cable run or in one of the components

prior to connecting it to the new Satellite RF Spitter.

[TV inputs and RF Splitters aren't supposed to short out the D.C. signal...but I've seen some that do.....]


You could also use a Satellite RF Splitter that has D.C. PASS only on one port,

such as Fry's ( www.outpost.com ) p/n 2420680,

guaranteeing that D.C. is not passed down the new cable run: http://shop3.outpost.com/product/242...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG 


This subject was discussed earlier, you might want to look at the jpg's I prepared for a similiar arrangement:


----------



## mcshade311

i have a problem, every time my furnace kicks on, i lose my uhf channels. this also happens if i use my microwave or anything that uses a lot of power. does anyone know how i can fix this.


my set up is radioshack 12 footer and in the attic, also i have the pre amp and power supply up there, would i be better off if i had my power supply down by my tv? and is it normal to have better reception at night?


Thanks for all your help, this is my first post but i've been reading these forums for years.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mcshade311* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> i have a problem, every time my furnace kicks on, i lose my uhf channels. this also happens if i use my microwave or anything that uses a lot of power. does anyone know how i can fix this.
> 
> 
> my set up is radioshack 12 footer and in the attic, also i have the pre amp and power supply up there, would i be better off if i had my power supply down by my tv? and is it normal to have better reception at night?



Your first problem is most likely impulse noise. You can start by making sure your amplifier and television are plugged into a separate circuit than the other objects you're using.


The power supply for a preamp should be as close to the receiving TV as possible.


I get much better reception at night than during the day. Lots of reasons have been proposed for why this might be, but it just is the way it is. My improvements start at sunset and get better over the next hour or so.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mcshade311* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> i have a problem, every time my furnace kicks on, i lose my uhf channels. this also happens if i use my microwave or anything that uses a lot of power. does anyone know how i can fix this.
> 
> 
> my set up is radioshack 12 footer and in the attic, also i have the pre amp and power supply up there, would i be better off if i had my power supply down by my tv? and is it normal to have better reception at night?
> 
> 
> Thanks for all your help, this is my first post but i've been reading these forums for years.



Best to have your pre amp power supply as close to the antenna as possible and put any spitters you may use after the power supply. That way any losses caused by splitters and long cable runs will be after the amplified signal. And use cable with better shielding, so you don't pick up so much noise from other appliances.


Reception is almost always better at night. Especially for distant stations. It doesn't make much difference for station that are at full power and within, oh, about 45 miles.


----------



## Hocken




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *barrygordon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live east of Orlando FL, actually Merritt Island. I currently have two antennas in the attic; a high gain UHF (Channelmaster 4228) and a small YAGI cut for VHF 11. This is because WNBC comes in on channel 11 for HDTV and all others are on UHF. The two antennas feed a Channel master 7777 preamp and then a Spaun multiplexor. I know if I put the antennas on the roof all will be better except with my HOA, who have no say in the matter. I am an officer in the HOA, so i try to be nice and i don't like the look of the antenna on the roof. I may be forced there though.
> 
> 
> I get between 77% and 100% signal strength on 12 digital channels, except for one important one, WCBS. I get no signal there. I do not understand why since all transmitters (the ones I care about are at the same location (Bithlo) and about 35 miles away over Florida Terrain (nothing high).
> 
> 
> I did remove a section of radiant barrier (silver foil) and that improved the received SS by almost 30% to its current level.
> 
> 
> To get WCBS (UHF 58) I have a Jointenna on order. I will then use a small directional UHF in the attic and tie it in via the jointenna and specifically aim it to get a maximum signal on UHF 58. Probably nbeed to take down more radiant barrier. Total cable runs to the sets are about 100 feet from antenna to mlpxr to sets.
> 
> 
> I will post how I make out.





I have been trying to order a jointenna, but can't find a web site to order it from.

If you could give me the web site you order your from I would be thankful.


Thank you.

Hocken


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Hocken* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have been trying to order a jointenna, but can't find a web site to order it from.
> 
> If you could give me the web site you order your from I would be thankful.
> 
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Hocken



Here's one place:
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/ant...Jointennas.htm


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> With the antenna pointing at the horizon (290K antenna temperature), the Research Comm preamp will give you 1.75 dB more signal to noise ratio.



Which is useful information but does not resolve the question of which amplifier is better for this customer in this application. The signal entering the tuner coming from the Winegard preamp will be 1.75dB "noisier", but will also be 8dB stronger. Whether that is better or worse than the signal that would be coming from the Research Comm preamp will also depend on the so-called "sensitivity" of the receiver's tuner. It may perform more reliably with an input signal level of -75dBm and an S/N ratio of 18dB from a Winegard preamp than with a signal level of -83dBm but an S/N ratio of about 20dB from the Research Comm preamp. I would wager that in more instances, the Research Comm output signals would be better, but most residential users don't have the means to measure the receiver input signal strength to venture an informed guess on the subject.


I always look with at least some suspicion at the specs on this device, since it says it has a maximum output of 127dB microvolts, which, if I'm not confusing an uppercase "V" with a lower case "v" (meaning referenced volts versus unreferenced ones), then it claims to have the same maximum output as the industry-standard rack mounted strip amplifiers that have a big sucker semiconductor for their power amplification stage.


And of course, the "maximum output" level of any broadband amplifier plummets with multiple, comparable strength input signals. That is not often a problem for me, since I can measure and trap out the excessively strong signals, but most residential users are not equipped to measure and attenuate them.


A year or two ago, when the Research Comm preamplifier was touted here in other threads, some of the users reported that theirs had suffered from overload problems, but their conclusions may have been just guesses, and it is possible that any overloads they experienced were of tuners that were overloaded by the level of the undesired, excessively strong signals that entered them along with the desired, weak ones, rather than by clipping or intermodulation in the Research Comm preamp itself.


Figuring out or even estimating the effects of preamplifier intermodulation distortion on weaker broadcast signals is impractical and nearly impossible. Manufacturer's published amplifier specs for various intermodulation byproducts are useful for engineering a cable TV distribution system, where all of the signals are at the same level, but an intermodulation byproduct of two strong carriers in a preamp that falls in-band on a weak signal can decimate it, even though such a preamp would appear to be operating safely within its published input/output parameters.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mcshade311* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> i have a problem, every time my furnace kicks on, i lose my uhf channels. this also happens if i use my microwave or anything that uses a lot of power. does anyone know how i can fix this.
> 
> 
> my set up is radioshack 12 footer and in the attic, also i have the pre amp and power supply up there, would i be better off if i had my power supply down by my tv? and is it normal to have better reception at night?



Sounds like you have a problem in the 120VAC system, such as a poor connection in the power wiring.

RF performance wise, it shouldn't matter where the Power Module is located, the insertion loss is the same.


First thing to do is check the Power Module's AC outlet to see if the voltage drops when someone turns on the microwave, heater, etc.

If it drops more than a few volts, you might have a wiring connection that isn't cinched up tight somewhere between the AC outlet, one of several daisy-chained AC outlets/switches and the house breaker box.


Moving the Power Module to a different location, such as next to the TV, may succeed in moving away from this problematic circuit. You can also use a Power Strip/Surge Protector that has EMI/RFI Filtering capability, such as some (but not all) of the Tripplite models:
http://shop3.outpost.com/product/366...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG 

Many Power Strip/Surge Protectors do not provide EMI/RFI Filter capabiity, so read the fine print.


I also would not rule out interference leaking in from the heater motor and microwave. You may simply have a poorly installed F-type connector somewhere along the coax downlead....or you may need double (or quad) shielded cable.


----------



## elove

Can I split an OTA signal. In other words, I have two HD receivers and one Silver Sensor, can I split the signal and use it for both HD receivers.


----------



## SnellKrell

Yes, but realize that you will be lowering your Silver Sensor's signal strength by about 3.5dbs.


I've done exactly the same thing and I have no problem.


Gary


----------



## elove

I have two Silver Sensors and an HD-DVR. How do I hook up both antenna's to the one receiver using a Zenith amplifer. I hoping I will get better reception with the two antennas instead of one.



I tried taking the cable from the antenna out on the amplifer and running it into the splitter and then connecting the the two antennas to the splitter outputs. That didn't work.


Thanks!


----------



## aaronwt

I bought a signal joiner to join the two signals from both my Square Shooters. They join together and then go to my preamp. Then the signal goes to my DirecTV switch to combine it with the SAT signal. It has worked very well for me with my three HDTiVos and VBOX Cat's Eye USB-A-3560 ATSC tuner.


----------



## quaffin1

Guys, just got my first HDTV couple days ago for house on the river.

Currently have standard Dishnetwork hooked up. Vizio LCD has ATSC tuner built-in. I was wanting to set things up to get OTA reception of local HD channels without having to splurge for the HD upgrade on dishnetwork for the time being. As this is not primary residence.

I would be able to install outside antenna on roof.

I am new to this HD stuff, but what I am learning is most channels on UHF

and will benefit from pre-amp most likely. Is rotor needed?

Several stations are 20-30 miles away, I think.

This residence is 8 miles east of Washington,NC


Should I look at radioshack or Lowes and just get biggest antenna I am comfortable with. I understand bigger is usually better and higher is better.


Any advice or if more details needed, I will provide.

Or would I be better off to post this on the reception forum for eastern NC.


Thanks in advance for any help.


----------



## Antares




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *flashbacck* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a really newbie question, so sorry if it sounds dumb. But what in the world is the difference between a Preamp and an Amp? Are they two different terms for the same thing?
> 
> 
> Thanks



Pre-Amp or HT Processor - Box that contains controls for manipulating the sound, like volume balance etc. Also contains inputs for your CD player, DVD player, etc. and a selector switch. Some Preamps do not amplify the signal at all. Others amplify it to a small degree


Power Amp - Cables lead from the Preamp to the power amp. This is the device that actually amplifies your signal. You attach your speakers to the leads on the power amp.


Integrated Amplifier- PreAmp and Power Amp in a single box.


----------



## wildwillie6

I have a working antenna system







but I think I can squeeze out just a little more signal strength if I can minimize a cable run by moving a power supply.


The power supply in question is now at point A in the diagram, just where it should be, upstream of the Join-Tenna and UHF-VHF combiner. But I can make a cable run a lot shorter, and through newer RG-6 cable as opposed to older RG-59 cable, if I can move the power supply to point B in the diagram.


Is it possible to do this by blocking the DC power at points C and D? And if so, would the "DC block" 15-1259 from Radio Shack do the job?


(The reasons for my cable constraints result from this being a 1906 farmhouse where cables were strung at different times, and not in the right places to be accessible to power where I'd like it. Can't change those until we gut the place to the walls, maybe 25 years from now.)


Also, if this is a really stupid question, please forgive.


willie


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wildwillie6* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a working antenna system
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but I think I can squeeze out just a little more signal strength if I can minimize a cable run by moving a power supply.
> 
> 
> The power supply in question is now at point A in the diagram, just where it should be, upstream of the Join-Tenna and UHF-VHF combiner. But I can make a cable run a lot shorter, and through newer RG-6 cable as opposed to older RG-59 cable, if I can move the power supply to point B in the diagram.
> 
> 
> Is it possible to do this by blocking the DC power at points C and D? And if so, would the "DC block" 15-1259 from Radio Shack do the job?



That would work only if the VHF/UHF Joiner and the JoinTenna have DC PASS capability on the ports going to the Preamp.


Does anyone know if the JoinTenna has DC PASS capability on one or both ports???

You can check with a Volt-Ohm-Meter...


----------



## Hoopnoop

I have a quick OTA antenna question. I am west of Washington DC (about 25 miles away) and Baltimore (about 45 miles away) and there is about a 40 degree spread in their geographic location. I want to put up either a CM 4221 or a CM 4228 and try to capture both locations without a rotor. Is this doable? If so, which of the two antennas would your recommend?


thanks in advance for any advice!


----------



## pat_h20




> Quote:
> I get much better reception at night than during the day. Lots of reasons have been proposed for why this might be, but it just is the way it is. My improvements start at sunset and get better over the next hour or so.



This is interesting to me. Can you share some of the more popular reasons people have proposed?


----------



## jtbell

See the section "Tropospheric Enhancement" on the following page:

http://home.cogeco.ca/%7Evem3ont22/p...n/tr-modes.htm


----------



## pat_h20

excellent! Thanks!


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Hoopnoop* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a quick OTA antenna question. I am west of Washington DC (about 25 miles away) and Baltimore (about 45 miles away) and there is about a 40 degree spread in their geographic location. I want to put up either a CM 4221 or a CM 4228 and try to capture both locations without a rotor. Is this doable? If so, which of the two antennas would your recommend?
> 
> 
> thanks in advance for any advice!



My recommendation would be the 4221. If all station are UHF it should have plenty of gain. The 4228 is what I have, but the 4221 is less directional.


----------



## Jesse31

If anyone is looking to purchase a Xg91 antenna here are links to the lowest prices I could find:

http://www.gainsaver.com/bNetStore/T...&Param10=14682 ($55.99)
http://www.audio-discounters.com/xg-91.html ($57.48)

http://www.ambientweather.com/dbxg91.html ($57.86)

http://www.electronicsoutfitter.com/store/XG-91.html ($63.23)


I recently purchased one and paid full price....ggrrrrrr! I just wanted to post this info to keep anyone else from spending too much $$.


----------



## TheRatPatrol




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Hoopnoop* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a quick OTA antenna question. I am west of Washington DC (about 25 miles away) and Baltimore (about 45 miles away) and there is about a 40 degree spread in their geographic location. I want to put up either a CM 4221 or a CM 4228 and try to capture both locations without a rotor. Is this doable? If so, which of the two antennas would your recommend?
> 
> 
> thanks in advance for any advice!



How come they don't have a round antenna that can pick up stations from all directions?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *theratpatrol* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How come they don't have a round antenna that can pick up stations from all directions?



The desired signal comes from a single direction. Multipath, noise, and interference come from all directions. The best results occur when the desired TV channel is significantly stronger than the undesired signals. By definition, an antenna that works equally well in all directions has no gain.


----------



## theroys88

Anyone interested in some free antennas. CM4228, XG91 and a Antennacraft 92 element UHF/Vhf antenna plus a CM uhf preamp. Only catch is you have to get them off the roof. If interested PM me. Thanks.


----------



## Hoopnoop




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil Laffoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My recommendation would be the 4221. If all station are UHF it should have plenty of gain. The 4228 is what I have, but the 4221 is less directional.



Thanks! That's what I needed to here.


----------



## firemantom26




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pat_h20* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This is interesting to me. Can you share some of the more popular reasons people have proposed?



http://home.cogeco.ca/~dxinfo/tropo.html


----------



## pat_h20

Thanks firemantom!


----------



## Colm

Uh, theratpratrol, there are round omnidirectional antennas...


----------



## allen1994

I saw this on E-Bay and was wondering if anyone out there have used this.

I'm planning to install it in the attic if there's a positive feedback.


HDTV VHF UHF FM OUTDOOR ANTENNA w/ ROTOR

NEW IN THE BOX. INCLUDES 360 ROTOR Item number: 5866520805


----------



## bfoster

They don't provide the specs for the antenna itself, I would be leary.


----------



## kdulaney

I purchased a Winegard SquareShooter Antenna. I am about 22 miles from the main transmission tower in the San Franciso area. All I want are the HD channels and the specs on the antenna said that the non-amplified mode would work easily (range of 40- 50 miles quoted for UHF). I first mounted the antenna in the attic with a single layer of plywood and asphalt singles between the antenna and the open air. Figuring a 30% signal loss I thought I would still be OK. I could get channel 5.1 (CBS) and a few others. But not the main ABC, NBC and FOX digital channels (all are on UHF channels so I should stil be able to get them).


The next move I made was to move he antenna to the roof. I mounted it to the chimney and pointed it where antennaweb said to point it. Even tried copying the neighbors poining direction. I got worse signal than before. I checked the cables and just about every component I have and they all checked out. One strange experience was that I connected the antenna using the same cables as on the roof and pointed it out my front door. I got better reception than on the roof. But that exercisce did confirm that my neighbor's pointing direction was more accurate than that from antennaweb.


So my next move was to call Winegard. They were very helpful and suggested I buy an external amplifier which I did. Hooked it up and yes indeed the signal went from a 19 out of 100 on the station I could get (36.1 I believe) to about a 40. Interesting I had better luck getting channels that were supposed to be 90 degrees from where I was pointing the antenna. But alas, I could not get any of the main channels (CBS, etc.) from the main tower. I could get some but not all.


So before I put a big ugly antenna on my roof, does anyone have any insight into what is going on? And what I should do? Thanks.


----------



## SnellKrell

Do you have line-of-site from your home to the transmission towers?


If not, and you "had better luck getting channels that were supposed to be

90 degrees from where I was pointing the antenna," that sounds like multipath

reception.


That is, your stronger signal is actually a reflection of the main signal from the tower.


You say that you're 22 miles from the main transmission tower. Are there obstacles in

between you and the tower - buildings, mountains????


If so, it's multipath.


Hope this helps.


Gary


----------



## david118383

I need some advice on which indoor antenna I should buy. My apartment is going to be about 32 miles away from the broadcast stations. Are there any indoor antennas I can use and pick up HD channels that far away?


----------



## Hoopnoop




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *david118383* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I need some advice on which indoor antenna I should buy. My apartment is going to be about 32 miles away from the broadcast stations. Are there any indoor antennas I can use and pick up HD channels that far away?



Try the Silver Sensor -- it may work. It's highly directional and a bit flimsy but some people swear by it. You can get it at Amazon.com and other places.


----------



## nolanpb

I live in Chicago and am currently using an indoor antenna. I get great reception for all channels except WBBM (CBS), which was expected. Well with the NCAA tourney coming up I really want to be able to receive their signal. Over the weekend I took my indoor antenna outside to just measure the signal strength and see if it would be worth it to go with an outside antenna. To my surprise I went from 0 signal strength to mid 90s on WBBM. This was with no fine tuning, just sticking an antenna outside. So now I am definitely getting an antenna for outside I just need suggestions. I live about 2 miles away from the towers and I need to receive both UHF and VHF.


Any ideas? Thanks in advance for the help


Nolan


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nolanpb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Any ideas? Thanks in advance for the help



Your indoor antenna is probably no more than a simple dipole for VHF. If you only want WBBM during the tourney, consider sticking some rabbit ears outside for the month. Radio Shack has one for $8. It won't last in the weather - probably die within a year, but would work for a month.


If you want a more permanent solution, the Channel Master 2001 should work great.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kdulaney* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I purchased a Winegard SquareShooter Antenna. I am about 22 miles from the main transmission tower in the San Franciso area. All I want are the HD channels and the specs on the antenna said that the non-amplified mode would work easily (range of 40- 50 miles quoted for UHF). I first mounted the antenna in the attic with a single layer of plywood and asphalt singles between the antenna and the open air. Figuring a 30% signal loss I thought I would still be OK. I could get channel 5.1 (CBS) and a few others. But not the main ABC, NBC and FOX digital channels (all are on UHF channels so I should stil be able to get them).
> 
> 
> The next move I made was to move he antenna to the roof. I mounted it to the chimney and pointed it where antennaweb said to point it. Even tried copying the neighbors poining direction. I got worse signal than before. I checked the cables and just about every component I have and they all checked out. One strange experience was that I connected the antenna using the same cables as on the roof and pointed it out my front door. I got better reception than on the roof. But that exercisce did confirm that my neighbor's pointing direction was more accurate than that from antennaweb.
> 
> 
> So my next move was to call Winegard. They were very helpful and suggested I buy an external amplifier which I did. Hooked it up and yes indeed the signal went from a 19 out of 100 on the station I could get (36.1 I believe) to about a 40. Interesting I had better luck getting channels that were supposed to be 90 degrees from where I was pointing the antenna. But alas, I could not get any of the main channels (CBS, etc.) from the main tower. I could get some but not all.
> 
> 
> So before I put a big ugly antenna on my roof, does anyone have any insight into what is going on? And what I should do? Thanks.



1. Can you provide your general location (to nearest cross streets)?

2. Are there nearby hills or buildings between you and N-W towards Sutro Towers?

3. Are you using all new coax or reusing old wiring?

4. How is the signal split to different rooms and/or devices?


==========================================

The Squareshooter is a very low gain, very wide beamwidth antenna....which makes it one of the worst choices...esp. for attic applications.

The C-M 4221, W-G PR4400 or A-D DB-4 would provide more gain, and a moderate degree of protection against multipath.

If mulltipath is the culprit, you may want to go one step further and use the C-M 4228 8-Bay antenna ($50 at Frys),

which has the additional benefit of significant gain for VHF channels.


----------



## marantz1

I'm new to this site


What concerns do I have with placing my Antenna Tower about 200' from my home? I will be using RG11. I do no think I will have a problem receiving a signal. We live about 50 mile from Chicago. My concern is line lose from the distance of the Antenna and the Tower. Local rep siad it wouldn't be a concern until 300'. as long as I use a preamp ect. I would just like to know what i will be up against before I continue with installation. Moving Tower is not an option and we do not want antenna on roof. I plan on using this to receive HDTV signals.


Right now I can receive a good (weak) signal from one of those treck antenna outside laying on the ground next to the house


Please be honest.


Thanks


----------



## GeorgeLV

Have you looked into the satellite companies? Both offer the big four Chicago HD locals and would be a lot less obtrusive than a large antenna tower.


----------



## hakujin

Hello folks,

I"m new to the HDTV scene but I was hoping to get a recommendation from one of you on a indoor HDTV antenna. I live in an apartment about 25 miles from downtown Chicago. I'm currently using a Jensen TV931 amplified antenna which has a 20DB gain and am able to pick up around 20 channels but would like to get something in the $50-200 price range. What are the best indoor antennas that anyone has come across?


Recommendations are greatly appreciated!


----------



## Rory Boyce

A good quality preamp at the antenna will easily cancel out all of your loss from your long cable run. It should work fine. You do need to make sure that your preamp/receiver combination does not get overdriven by strong local signals. Preamps with FM radio traps are available if you have any FM stations nearby.


----------



## Jesse31

Have you considered the XG91? Is there some reason you would not use one? Just curious...Where can 9032 be bought for $35?


----------



## Jesse31

Oh...so you are saying they won't hold up over time...because they work very well...I'm able to pull in completely clear analog uhf from 85 miles during the day.


----------



## brad_arth

Would the Wineguard 9095 work well for me; I looked on AntennaWeb and they recommended a medium sized antenna with a pre-amp? I do live in a larger town, so many of my stations should come in clear with a small antenna, from what AntennaWeb says. I am new and just looking for input. Thank you


----------



## goldrich

As a DXer in an urban area (3-5 miles from most local towers), I've been experimenting with the XG91 for about two years and I've found it to be a very competent antenna. It is very similar to the Triax Unix 100 (wideband). My main UHF antenna setup includes 2-Triax antennas horizontally stacked for added gain and more precise aim to find distant stations through a lot of local clutter. Picture of my Triax setup.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/goldri...cd.jpg&.src=ph 


Sirchadwick, sorry to hear you've already had a problem with the CM 7777. I've owned a 7775 and 7777 for several years and they still work just fine.


Steve


----------



## brad_arth

What is DXing?


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *brad_arth* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What is DXing?



It's a term that people use when they turn on a radio or TV that is connected to a reception antenna and then mindessly change channels to see what comes in. Calling it DXing makes it sound like they are doing something scientific, when in actuality, that so-called hobby involves as much thinking as does sorting through your pocket change, looking for any coins that might have collectable value.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sirchadwick* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am strongly againist the 91XG. The constuction of the antenna does not meet my standards, to say it nicely.



I hear this over and over and over again. I'm still waiting for someone to report a problem with one that has been installed.


Mine went up in July of 2004 and still works as well as the day it was installed. We've had ice storms, small hail (pea-sized) and 70+ mph winds. No visible damage from ground level.


When I was a kid, my parents bought the thickest glasses they could find because they thought those would be the toughest. Instead, they were the most brittle, and snapped easily from any trauma. The eye doctor kept a spare set of frames in stock for me because I was such a regular customer. In high school, I spent my own money and got thin frames. They never broke, in spite of some serious blows from all angles (including a volleyball spike from 2' away that was enough for the glass lens to cut my face.) I think the 91XG gets a knock because it doesn't "feel" solid, not because it isn't solid.


And as for performance, which most of us take to mean actual reception, the 91XG has to be very close to the top of the list, and a bargain compared to the European models. You could buy four for what it would cost to get one Televes DAT75 shipped from England.


----------



## Jesse31

Yeah...what sregener said.


----------



## brad_arth

Where do you find out the signal strength of a channel. I see folks saying a certain channel is 70%. Is there a tool I would use to measure that?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It's a term that people use when they turn on a radio or TV that is connected to a reception antenna and then mindessly change channels to see what comes in. Calling it DXing makes it sound like they are doing something scientific, when in actuality, that so-called hobby involves as much thinking as does sorting through your pocket change, looking for any coins that might have collectable value.



I think this is a little oversimplistic. DXing is like many other hobbies - you can do it seriously, investing much time, money and effort, or you can do it casually, using what you have and putting forth minimal effort.


At its simplest, on days/nights when conditions are favorable, you can spin your antenna and scan through the channels. But when you find something where you expect to find nothing, you must take some effort to identify it or your search was worthless. "Last night, I watched channel 2!" "Channel 2, eh? Where did it come from?" "I have no idea..."


At its most complex, you can invest in antenna setups that far exceed what would be necessary for local reception, you can invest in blocking devices to filter out strong local signals so that weaker ones can come in. You can even use spectrum analyzers to seperate signals out.


AltAntMike, you're a good installer, and I've read what you've done to make local installs work. Surely you wouldn't say that the things you do are not scientific. So why, when some apply those same tools and techniques in other ways, do you feel the need to demean and insult?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *brad_arth* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Where do you find out the signal strength of a channel. I see folks saying a certain channel is 70%. Is there a tool I would use to measure that?



Most digital tuners have a meter or reading called "signal strength." A few lack this. But nearly all are mislabeled and should instead read "signal quality" or "error ratio".


Check the documentation for your tuner to see if it includes such a meter, and how to access it.


----------



## brad_arth




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Most digital tuners have a meter or reading called "signal strength." A few lack this. But nearly all are mislabeled and should instead read "signal quality" or "error ratio".
> 
> 
> Check the documentation for your tuner to see if it includes such a meter, and how to access it.



Thank you for the heads up.


I am planning on putting an HD Tuner in my home computer and then loading media center pc. I can then hope/assume, that a program that comes with the tuner card will have a signal strength meter.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *brad_arth* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What is DXing?



Utilizing long distance signal propagtion for communciations(reception in this case) via radio waves. The usage of acronym "DX" refers to "long distance" in this case.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It's a term that people use when they turn on a radio or TV that is connected to a reception antenna and then mindessly change channels to see what comes in. Calling it DXing makes it sound like they are doing something scientific, when in actuality, that so-called hobby involves as much thinking as does sorting through your pocket change, looking for any coins that might have collectable value.



Apparently you are not aware of the "scientific" interests and aspects involved for some of us who enjoy the TV/DTV Dx'ing hobby ...


And no, that is not saying it's necessary, or required(nor should it be) to be interested in "science", or the "scientific aspects" of long distance VHF/UHF signal propagation in order to enjoy the hobby ....


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


For those who *are* interested, and want to learn about some of the "scientific aspects" of DX'ing and long distance VHF/UHF signal propagation, here are just a few links that should be beneficial - Yes, Scientists and engineers(as well as "hobbyists") have been "Dx'ing" as well as doing useful research and observations concerning long-distance VHF/UHF signal propagation for over 50 years. Although, unfortunetly, there is still much misinformation out there, including in some cases at some(but not all) of the links below. :

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...-signals.shtml 

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...pagation.shtml 

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/TV-FM_DX 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...cy_propagation 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sporadic_E 

http://www.answers.com/topic/tv-fm-dx 


The signal propagation section at : www.dxfm.com 

http://www.amfmdx.net/fmdx/sporadic-e.html 

http://home.cogeco.ca/~vem3ont22/pro...n/tr-modes.htm


----------



## pat_h20




> Quote:
> And as for performance, which most of us take to mean actual reception, the 91XG has to be very close to the top of the list, and a bargain compared to the European models. You could buy four for what it would cost to get one Televes DAT75 shipped from England.



I actually read a comparrison study from the HDTVPrimer website that compared a bunch of commercially available antennas and it looked like the 91XG was at the top of the list, according to his metrics. I will look around and see if I saved the link somewhere. I don't have a 91XG, but if I lived 60+ miles form the towers, I would probably look into it. I will post the link later if I can find it.


----------



## AntennaMaster

I have ordered some additional "middle" sections for the Antennas Direct 91XG antenna. The standard length is 93" with each section 31" in length.


The purpose of this project is to insert three additional sections of boom to increase the gain, and directivity. In theory, the additional length "should" play a factory, however, I am unsure on what the outcome will be.


So, it will make the antenna 186" in length or 15.5 feet! The ability to reposition the holder will allow even distribtion of the modified antenna.


I will be looking at windloading and how much extra length can be added. If you have any other ideas, let me know.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pat_h20* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I actually read a comparrison study from the HDTVPrimer website that compared a bunch of commercially available antennas and it looked like the 91XG was at the top of the list, according to his metrics. I will look around and see if I saved the link somewhere. I don't have a 91XG, but if I lived 60+ miles form the towers, I would probably look into it. I will post the link later if I can find it.



I believe these links relate to what you are referring to, which include tests performed with The AntennasDirect XG91.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html 


Steve


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> We have one VHF digital and another one will be on the air by this summer. And two other local VHF analog stations here have told me they plan to move their UHF DTV channel to their VHF assignment, when analog is shut off.
> 
> 
> The TV channels that will go away after the analog shutoff are _UHF_ channels 52 - 69, not VHF. Article here
> 
> 
> .



Did you notice that the "article" was dated April Fool's Day---four years ago?????


DTV Channel Election results are summarized here:
www.tvantenna.com/links/dtvchannelelections.xls 

Except for a handful of Negotiated Channel Agreements that came later (see 11/23/05 posting):
http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pat_h20* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I actually read a comparrison study from the HDTVPrimer website that compared a bunch of commercially available antennas and it looked like the 91XG was at the top of the list, according to his metrics. I will look around and see if I saved the link somewhere. I don't have a 91XG, but if I lived 60+ miles form the towers, I would probably look into it. I will post the link later if I can find it.



The results posted on hdtvprimer.com are based on NEC computer simulations that are only as good as the model assumptions and piece-wise approximations. Accurately simulating the very complex 91XG would be very, very difficult.....

So take the results with a big grain of salt...


An on-the-air comparison for multiple antennas mounted on the roof (and in an attic) was reported in the below post and summarized/discussed in the subsequent postings:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ic#post6245872 

The 91XG was in the middle of the pack.


You might also find the fol. Excel spread sheet of interest. It summarizes and plots comparisons for various manufacturer spec sheet data vs Kerry Cozad's on-air gain measurements and selected NEC simulations:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST20074


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> An on-the-air comparison for multiple antennas mounted on the roof (and in an attic) was reported in the below post and summarized/discussed in the subsequent postings:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ic#post6245872
> 
> The 91XG was in the middle of the pack.



It's worth noting that that test was done at 10 miles or so, not at the long-range distances where the 91XG really shines.


It also is just one test, done in one location. Bob Chase is a great guy and a super engineer, but that doesn't make his one test in one location worth more than all the others done elsewhere.


One post in this thread did a comparison of a 4228 and a 91XG and found the 91XG was slightly better below channel 30 and slightly worse above channel 30.


I replaced a Winegard HD8200P with a 91XG and saw a marked improvement in reception. I've tried the Channel Master 4248 (also in a vertical stack), a Winegard HD7084P and a Radio Shack U120. None came close to the performance I'm getting from the 91XG, although all performed about the same for stations within 30 miles, and maybe even within 50.


I guess the point I'm trying to make is that location matters a whole lot, and only when long distance (i.e. very weak signals) becomes the defining factor does the 91XG really come into its own.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Most digital tuners have a meter or reading called "signal strength." A few lack this. But nearly all are mislabeled and should instead read "signal quality" or "error ratio".



Someone else pointed out to me that 99% of my signal wasn't getting through my roof and explained about the signal quality thing when I said the signal wasn't too much better outside. It was quite the enlightening discussion about the signal correction meter in my hdtivo.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> One post in this thread did a comparison of a 4228 and a 91XG and found the 91XG was slightly better below channel 30 and slightly worse above channel 30.
> 
> 
> .



Since, by definition, higher UHF is more difficult to receive even at the same powers as lower stations, wouldn't being 'worse' above 30 be a disadvantage?


----------



## jmcohen23

I'm not 100% sure on the antenna type, but it cost $30 at a local electronic store. My zip is 21209, and I would like to pick up the DC HD signals, but I don't think that I can. I think I need to get one of those monster antennas instead.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jmcohen23* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm not 100% sure on the antenna type, but it cost $30 at a local electronic store. My zip is 21209, and I would like to pick up the DC HD signals, but I don't think that I can. I think I need to get one of those monster antennas instead.



You wouldn't need a monster antenna. The furthest station in DC is 37 miles, which means that a Channel Master 4221 should work just fine. This antenna runs about $25 and is 4' high and 2' wide, and about 4" deep. Hardly a monster compared to others that are 15' long.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Since, by definition, higher UHF is more difficult to receive even at the same powers as lower stations, wouldn't being 'worse' above 30 be a disadvantage?



Where did you get the idea that higher UHF channels are harder to receive? At least one engineer I know complains that they're stuck with choosing between 14 and 19, which both suffer far more impulse noise than higher UHF signals.


But I think we're splitting hairs. The 4228 is an excellent UHF antenna. It is even the best antenna for many people in many situations. But the corner reflector of the 91XG is better than the stacked bowtie design of the 4228, at least in one person's tests. For one antenna or the other to be slightly better in one instance for half the UHF spectrum isn't a big deal. The weight and wind load of the 4228 make it a poor choice for people with rotors. The stacked bowtie design is often easier to install in an attic, and the bowtie design outperforms the yagi in attic situations.


There are so many factors that make reception difficult that it's hard to pick one and say, "This is it." Weak signals are a major problem for long-distance reception. Co-channel and cross-channel interference can be others. Multipath is still a bugger. That's why real-world testing isn't considered valid by the "pros" and they rely on computer modeling.


I get a digital station on UHF channel 44 that is at 205kw, and is over 75 miles away. That's good performance, I think. I get a UHF analog station on channel 48 with a very viewable picture that is about 74.5 miles away, and I'm 30 miles beyond their grade B contours. Now, I got these stations with my Winegard HD8200P, as well, but not as clearly and not as often. The difference was obvious to my eyes. Maybe there are other antennas out there that can perform as well as the 91XG, but I have yet to hear of a convincing case of another antenna "besting" the 91XG in long-distance performance over the entire spectrum.


But if your desired channels are above channel 30, and you have no trouble getting the ones below channel 30, the 4228 may be a better choice, provided you don't need a rotor and aren't at risk of overloading your mounting system.


----------



## Sirchadwick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *goldrich* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As a DXer in an urban area (3-5 miles from most local towers), I've been experimenting with the XG91 for about two years and I've found it to be a very competent antenna. It is very similar to the Triax Unix 100 (wideband). My main UHF antenna setup includes 2-Triax antennas horizontally stacked for added gain and more precise aim to find distant stations through a lot of local clutter. Picture of my Triax setup.
> http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/goldri...cd.jpg&.src=ph
> 
> 
> Sirchadwick, sorry to hear you've already had a problem with the CM 7777. I've owned a 7775 and 7777 for several years and they still work just fine.
> 
> 
> Steve



Steve,


Unfortunatley, my famous CM 4257 took a lighting hit. It took out the CM7777 preamp and roasted the antenna. So, I am in the market of buying a new UHF antenna.


I really like your setup. Most people have had problems stacking the antennas perfectly, thus cancelling out any of the associtaed 3dB gain with the stack.


At present, I am going back and forth with the 91XG & the Winegard 9032. It is a tough call for me!


Lastly, also looking at chaning the Amp from the CM 7777 to the Winegard AP2870. The advantage would be the higher front-end overload. Living in the city limits, (20 miles from local transmitters) I experienced this. Actually, there should really be NO difference in picture quality from a pre-amp with a gain of 26dB Vs. 19dB if the coax run is not over 200 feet. (Correct me if I am wrong).


----------



## Sirchadwick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jesse31* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Have you considered the XG91? Is there some reason you would not use one? Just curious...Where can 9032 be bought for $35?



Here you go: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...T=&PROD=PR9032 


Price does not reflect shipping. (Sorry)


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sirchadwick* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Most people have had problems stacking the antennas perfectly, thus cancelling out any of the associtaed 3dB gain with the stack.
> 
> 
> At present, I am going back and forth with the 91XG & the Winegard 9032. It is a tough call for me!



Horizontal stacks do far more for directionality than for gain. Vertical stacks are more for gain than directionality.


The 9032 is a fine antenna. Many have had good luck with it. I'd give it the nod over channel 40. Under that, I'd prefer the 91XG.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Where did you get the idea that higher UHF channels are harder to receive? At least one engineer I know complains that they're stuck with choosing between 14 and 19, which both suffer far more impulse noise than higher UHF signals.
> 
> 
> .



well there's first handed experience (old data I found about my rig at the time)


uhf station signal power height
Code:


Code:


26 (cbs3)    90-92      770/375
31 (pax61)   90-91       
32 (upn 57)  75-80      250/400
34 (wbye35)  80-85      358/377
42 (fox 29)  25-45      305/161
54 (wb 17)   60ish      500/354
64 (abc 6)   85+      500/390
67 (nbc10)   85++      560/377

where ch 64 was very unreliable (that 85 reading wasn't reliable as I soon found out) but ch 32, at half the power but the 'same' height, has never been a problem whether the antenna was indoors or out. Maybe it's not a valid comparision, but in my eyes, getting ch 32 perfectly and 100% reliably indoors vs ch 64s problems led me to think that it's harder to get higher UHF.


I know others have also mentioned it on this board (and others) and I read an article about it on hdprimer or somewhere and will post when I find it. (just dont have the time to search over all my posts when people answered me. ) I did solve the problems by mounting on the roof and spending $$ for someone to aim it.


----------



## newsposter

This wasn't what I was looking for but I found it interesting nonetheless

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html 

scroll to:

Comparing some common 4-to-1 baluns


I truly have no idea what that means...just seemed to support what I thought


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> well there's first handed experience
> 
> 
> ...where ch 64 was very unreliable (that 85 reading wasn't reliable as I soon found out) but ch 32, at half the power but the 'same' height, has never been a problem whether the antenna was indoors or out. Maybe it's not a valid comparision, but in my eyes, getting ch 32 perfectly and 100% reliably indoors vs ch 64s problems led me to think that it's harder to get higher UHF.



Hmmmm. Well... maybe this is why we're not all experts and shouldn't trust personal experience alone in making determinations.


Your antenna is not a flat performer across the board. No antenna is. Your antenna might be tuned for maximum performance somewhere other than the highest channel numbers.


Different frequencies propogate differently. Not necessarily inferior to each other, just different. That means that you might be in a sweet spot for one frequency, but not for another. In other words, it could just be coincidence that one channel came in better than another. The higher frequencies have smaller sweet spots, too, because the wavelengths are shorter.


Without knowing the details of the installation of each antenna, it is possible that one antenna was omni-directional and another had a directional bias. This may not be the case, or it might be. One antenna might be side-mounted on a tower, which would give it some null in one direction or another. WXOW-DT's digital antenna, for instance, is side-mounted, with a definite drop in signal to the northwest compared to the east.


Another example is in St.Paul/Minneapolis : KSTP-DT is broadcasting at 1000kw ERP, but it it the consistent underperformer compared to KARE-DT at 1000kw and WCCO-DT at 1000kw. In fact, all three are broadcast from the same antenna. KSTP is channel 50, WCCO is 32 and KARE is 35. "Ah-ha!" you exclaim. "There's the proof!" But not so fast. First, the antenna is not optimized for channel 50, it is optimized for channels 32-35. Second, even though these antennas are omnidirectional, they have relative peaks and valleys, which are offset by 30 degrees. So if you get great reception of WCCO and KARE, KSTP might be a problem, and vice versa. And since the antenna is optimized for WCCO and KARE, even if you're in the relative null for them, if you get KSTP, you'll certainly get the other two as well.


Since you were using an indoor antenna, you introduced yet another variable into the mix: the absorbtion of the materials in the walls or roof of your home. These are also not flat across the spectrum.


Of course, a station can do a lot to make their signal either easier or harder to receive by, among other things, messing with PSIP data or sending incorrect PSIP data which may serve to confuse receivers.


Finally, higher UHF channels have smaller wavelengths, which means that aiming of the receive antenna must be more precise. What works great on channel 32 may be well outside the gain area of channel 55. See any of the gain charts on hdtvprimer for examples.


The link you provided in the next post serves to further demonstrate that there are too many variables to be sure about anything from one real-world test. Those baluns have higher loss at higher frequencies. That isn't a function of the frequencies that are broadcast, or the difficulty in receiving them; it is a problem of balun design.


I have heard, from those who are supposed to know such things, that there is no practical difference in the receiving a UHF signal at the bottom of the scale from one at the top, provided you use equipment that is optimized for the frequency you're after. Any broadband antenna is not optimized, and most of the electrical components aren't flat across the spectrum, so what you've run into is, if indeed some channels aren't working as well as others and all other factors are equal, maybe just a problem of compromise in design.


It is not a fault or flaw of the 91XG that it works better on the lower frequencies than the higher ones - it is, at best, a compromise. And a good one, I think, since the highest channel number in a few years will be 51. Then all that extra oomph some antennas have on channels 52-69 will be wasted.


To sum up, the number of variables exceeds what can reasonably be tested and verified and proven by a single individual in a single location using commonly available antenna equipment. I'm sorry this post is so long, but it's a rather long-winded way of saying that your results, while interesting, are not definitive or even, without a great deal more research, even valid for comparison purposes.


----------



## brad_arth

I am a noob and would like some suggestions on what you think would work for an antenna. I looked on antennaweb, but not knowing what the various antennas are, its hard to use the suggestions











> Quote:
> channel - compass - miles - freq
> 
> 6.1 - 87 - 4.6 - 22
> 
> 3.1 - 90 - 4.6 - 45
> 
> 7.1 - 89 - 4.6 - 20
> 
> 26.1 - 120 - 6.7 - 17
> 
> 42 - 194 - 17.7 - 42
> 
> 15 - 194 - 17.7 - 15


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *brad_arth* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am a noob and would like some suggestions on what you think would work for an antenna. I looked on antennaweb, but not knowing what the various antennas are, its hard to use the suggestions



The last two are going to make it hard to go with a fixed solution. I'd use a Channel Master 4221 on a rotor to get that list. Avoid preamps or "powered" antennas.


If you wanted to try an indoor antenna, the Zenith Silver Sensor would be the one to get.


----------



## AntennaMaster

It is not a fault or flaw of the 91XG that it works better on the lower frequencies than the higher ones - it is, at best, a compromise. And a good one, I think, since the highest channel number in a few years will be 51. Then all that extra oomph some antennas have on channels 52-69 will be wasted.

*The 91XG performs better at higher frequencies.*


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Horizontal stacks do far more for directionality than for gain. Vertical stacks are more for gain than directionality.



No. At a constant efficiency, gain and directivity are the same thing. It's just spherical geometry:

https://ewhdbks.mugu.navy.mil/ANTENNAS.HTM 


Ron


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No. At a constant efficiency, gain and directivity are the same thing. It's just spherical geometry:
> 
> https://ewhdbks.mugu.navy.mil/ANTENNAS.HTM



For a single antenna, that would be true. For multiple antennas, though, things change.


In theory, directivity is increased with either a vertical or horizontal stack, but this directivity is restricted to one plane. With a vertical stack, sources of multipath above and below the antenna will be reduced relative to the direct signal. With a horizontal stack, sources of multipath at the same height (far more common) will be reduced.


The goal of a stack is to place the two antennas far enough apart that they are in separate waveforms from the transmitter. However, the additive benefits seem to be reduced with a horizontal stack compared to a vertical one. Thus, if your goal is to increase absolute signal strength, vertically stacked antennas are slightly better than horizontal ones. But if you have persistant problems with multipath, or you want to DX signals with extreme selectivity, a horizontal stack is the way to go.


It has been argued that neither stack design actually creates net gain due to the losses of combining the two signals and having mismatched inputs, meaning that the only improvement is in rejection of undesired signals. I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.


----------



## Tarooka

I just received a notice Radio Shack has stock of their legendary Double Bow Tie antenna, which is the best for OTA HDTV reception. Forget Terk and Silver Sensor, this is the real deal and in this day of high end components, it is obscenely inexpensive.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103058


----------



## TheRatPatrol

I want to split my incoming OTA antenna signal to have 3 outputs, 1 going to the TV, and the other 2 going to 2 OTA HD-DVR's in the same room. Can I get a spliter amplifier that has one input and 3 outputs, do they make such a thing, will I loose that much signal, or do I not need to worry about it?


Thanks.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For a single antenna, that would be true. For multiple antennas, though, things change.



No. Stacked antennas are effectively a single antenna. Most consider the CM4228 to be a single antenna, yet it's a stack of bowtie dipoles.


Ron


----------



## CPanther95




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tarooka* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just received a notice Radio Shack has stock of their legendary Double Bow Tie antenna, which is the best for OTA HDTV reception. Forget Terk and Silver Sensor, this is the real deal and in this day of high end components, it is obscenely inexpensive.
> 
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103058



They brought it back a year or two ago after seeing a very big ebay market develop selling this old (and very effective) $5 antenna selling regularly for up to $20 or $25. Plus they couldn't come up with a $99 "HDTV" amplified antenna that performed as well.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The higher frequencies have smaller sweet spots, too, because the wavelengths are shorter.
> 
> 
> Finally, higher UHF channels have smaller wavelengths, which means that aiming of the receive antenna must be more precise. .



Hey I dont understand most of the technical stuff in all this







but didn't you just make my point for me ?


I said that higher UHF is harder to receive and you said they have 'smaller sweet spots" and "smaller wavelength......must be more precise" which I presume means that are 'more difficult' to tune in










well at least by my definition


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I said that higher UHF is harder to receive and you said they have 'smaller sweet spots" and "smaller wavelength......must be more precise" which I presume means that are 'more difficult' to tune in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well at least by my definition



Perhaps we're like two ships passing in the night, not really making contact with each other here...


When it comes to antenna placement and aim, you typically have to be more careful with higher UHF than lower UHF. When it comes to actually receiving the signal, however, there is no real difference.


This is a little like saying that you have to aim a rifle more carefully than a shotgun. But when it comes to hitting the target, either should work if you aim it right.


----------



## AntAltMike

An antenna comprised of array of horizontally stacked _elements_ will be more directional, horizontally, than will an antenna with the same gain but consisting of either a single element or a vertically stacked element array in every situation except the ones an which an unintended multipath signal component fortuitously (or unfortuitously) gets to to the horizontally elements in sync phase.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey I dont understand most of the technical stuff in all this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but didn't you just make my point for me ?
> 
> 
> I said that higher UHF is harder to receive and you said they have 'smaller sweet spots" and "smaller wavelength......must be more precise" which I presume means that are 'more difficult' to tune in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well at least by my definition



But it is not our definition. While UHF antennas have to be aimed "more precisely", that characteristic only makes it more difficult to receive signals from different directions at the same time. Attaining the precision needed to optimize the performance of a UHF antenna with respect to a single transmission path is not considered a hinderance to tuning, because the aiming margin is so large with respect to our ability to aim it and hold its aim. When I point a UHF antenna at a transmitter, I'm sure I never know if it is within 5 degrees of being pointed at it unless I can see the tower, yet generally, I don't care whether it is or not.


If someone has a reception situation in which moving an antenna a few degrees make a difference between adequate reception and inadequate reception, then his problem is most surely multipath, because while moving a UHF antenna a few degrees to the left or right of the target line might only change the gain by a small fraction of a dB, it will often change the sidelobe rejection by more than that. So in harsh reception environments, the tighter precision of the UHF polar reception pattern often makes it easier to receive UHF signals rather than VHF ones, because it develops deeper and sharper sidelobe "troughs"


But there is a propagation disadvantage that burdens the higher frequencies and that is that they don't bend or refract as readily over horizontal obstructions, so it is quite common for someone to have more difficulty receiving the higher frequency UHF channel than the lower frequency ones broadcast from the same tower if there is a nearby object blocking the transmission line-of-sight path.


----------



## jalaram




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CPanther95* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> They brought it back a year or two ago after seeing a very big ebay market develop selling this old (and very effective) $5 antenna selling regularly for up to $20 or $25. Plus they couldn't come up with a $99 "HDTV" amplified antenna that performed as well.



I have one as well. It worked great in Tampa (where the transmitters were reasonably close). Now that I live in Manchester, NH, I can't get any signals. Should I just get a new one or can I put an amplifier on the current antenna?


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Perhaps we're like two ships passing in the night, not really making contact with each other here...
> 
> 
> When it comes to antenna placement and aim, you typically have to be more careful with higher UHF than lower UHF. \\.



yes it sounds like it's semantics (potaaato and potaahhto). I interpret 'be more careful' to mean more difficult because you can't just 'slap' the antenna on the roof and have it pick up the signal even if all the stations are in the same spot. (like in my personal case where 1 millimeter literally made the difference and frustrated the hell out of my installer). You need to spend time fine tuning to optimize reception (as evidenced by my $400 service calls). That = "more difficult" to me vs just setup and go. Whereas you just likely would say 'you have to be more careful"



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But there is a propagation disadvantage that burdens the higher frequencies and that is that they don't bend or refract as readily over horizontal obstructions, so it is quite common for someone to have more difficulty receiving the higher frequency UHF channel than the lower frequency ones broadcast from the same tower if there is a nearby object blocking the transmission line-of-sight path.



Again semantics..but not quite







However it's good to hear the acknowledgment that there is a propagation disadvantage higher up. In my case I had a harder time getting in 64 and 67 and even by your words above, you can have "more difficulty receiving the higher frequency UHF channel than the lower frequency ones."


so I think what both of you differ on is the definition of 'more difficult' yet you both seem to admit in your statements that the higher is "more difficult", at least in some cases and I dare say in many (assuming multipath and other objects are prevalent problems in the USA).


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Perhaps we're like two ships passing in the night, not really making contact with each other here...
> 
> 
> When it comes to antenna placement and aim, you typically have to be more careful with higher UHF than lower UHF. When it comes to actually receiving the signal, however, there is no real difference.
> 
> 
> This is a little like saying that you have to aim a rifle more carefully than a shotgun. But when it comes to hitting the target, either should work if you aim it right.



In addition to narrower antenna beamwidths at higher frequencies, the upper UHF frequencies

also have numerous loss factors making them more difficult to receive:

1. Propagation Loss increases with frequency:

Free Space Loss = 36.58 dB + 20 log (Fo in MHz) + 20 log (Dtr in miles)

2. Downlead Loss increases with frequency.

3. RF Splitter Loss increases at the higher frequencies.

4. VSWR Mismatch increases at the extremes of the designed bandwidth.


An antenna that exhibits more gain at higher frequencies can help to counteract these effects.


Higher frequencies also result in multipath nulls patterns being closer together,

making antenna placement ever more critical:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CPanther95* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> They brought it back a year or two ago after seeing a very big ebay market develop selling this old (and very effective) $5 antenna selling regularly for up to $20 or $25. Plus they couldn't come up with a $99 "HDTV" amplified antenna that performed as well.



You might be thinking of the single bowtie as far as being $5.00 (unless you made a misprint). I'm pretty sure that the double bowtie model has been going for around $15.00 for some time (it may have been only $5.00 at one time, but at least not for the last few years).


----------



## slapshot

Looking for some help here.

A few weeks ago I installed a 3020 CM antenna on my roof about 37 miles SW from downtown Chicago. Went well,got all the local digital channels,even the very hard to get CBS (digital channel 3,all others are uhf here) with very rare dropouts on that channel. On my H20 DTV receiver,I was able to get a fairly steady 65-70 signal strength for that one,all others are 90 plus. Now,after coming back from vacation,I get numerous dropouts for that channel only,with the ss varying greatly,sometimes as low as 30 or so. The antenna is running through a 5x8 multiswitch and diplexed. I tested it out today,ran the line straight through from the antenna to the receiver,bypassing switches and diplexers. Still numerous dropouts,no improvement. Any ideas on what it may be? If it was a bad cable,fitting,etc.,wouldn't all channels be affected?

Or possibly a bad transformer up on the antenna? Antenna is fine,no loose or damaged elements. No obstructions from my roof top to the towers downtown. Antenna is properly grounded. We did have a major storm here Sunday night,in which my HR10-250 did not survive,but I'm not sure if it was a result of the storm or not,(hard drive failure) or just a coincidence.


If anyone has any thoughts,I'd appreciate it,otherwise I guess I'll have to start replacing parts one by one.


----------



## slapshot

Looking for some help here.

A few weeks ago I installed a 3020 CM antenna on my roof about 37 miles SW from downtown Chicago. Went well,got all the local digital channels,even the very hard to get CBS (digital channel 3,all others are uhf here) with very rare dropouts on that channel. On my H20 DTV receiver,I was able to get a fairly steady 65-70 signal strength for that one,all others are 90 plus. Now,after coming back from vacation,I get numerous dropouts for that channel only,with the ss varying greatly,sometimes as low as 30 or so. The antenna is running through a 5x8 multiswitch and diplexed. I tested it out today,ran the line straight through from the antenna to the receiver,bypassing switches and diplexers. Still numerous dropouts,no improvement. Any ideas on what it may be? If it was a bad cable,fitting,etc.,wouldn't all channels be affected?

Or possibly a bad transformer up on the antenna? Antenna is fine,no loose or damaged elements. No obstructions from my roof top to the towers downtown. Antenna is properly grounded. We did have a major storm here Sunday night,in which my HR10-250 did not survive,but I'm not sure if it was a result of the storm or not,(hard drive failure) or just a coincidence.


If anyone has any thoughts,I'd appreciate it,otherwise I guess I'll have to start replacing parts one by one.


----------



## hdtvluvr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You might be thinking of the single bowtie as far as being $5.00 (unless you made a misprint). I'm pretty sure that the double bowtie model has been going for around $15.00 for some time (it may have been only $5.00 at one time, but at least not for the last few years).




The Double bowtie was being discontinued about 3 years ago and they got down to $1 on closeout. I think the ones that are selling now still have twin wire leads. If so, it will need to be replaced with a balun. This requires a balun, 2 small bolts and nuts, and removal of the rivets holding the twin wire lead on.


----------



## fysa

In St. Pete Beach, FL -- mostly level nearby save for some tennis court lighting. The antennaweb for my locale is:


yellow - uhf WTOG-DT 44.1 UPN ST. PETERSBURG FL 74° 30.3 59

yellow - uhf WTTA-DT 38.1 WB ST. PETERSBURG FL 75° 30.3 57

yellow - uhf WFTS-DT 28.1 ABC TAMPA FL 75° 30.3 29

yellow - uhf WEDU-DT 3.1 PBS TAMPA FL 74° 30.3 54

yellow - uhf WCLF-DT 22.1 CTN CLEARWATER FL 78° 29.9 21

green - uhf WFTT-DT 50.1 TFA TAMPA FL 75° 30.3 47

red - vhf WFLA-DT 8.1 NBC TAMPA FL 75° 30.3 7

red - vhf WTVT-DT 13.1 FOX TAMPA FL 79° 31.1 12

red - uhf WTSP-DT 10.1 CBS ST. PETERSBURG FL 0° 33.0 24

red - uhf WUSF-DT 16.1 PBS TAMPA FL 74° 30.3 34


I believe my biggest problem here is with CBS -- is there a single antenna solution that will cover everything above? Without a rotor? Looking to attempt an attic installation first due to high-wind concerns and the house being a rental..


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hdtvluvr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The Double bowtie was being discontinued about 3 years ago and they got down to $1 on closeout. I think the ones that are selling now still have twin wire leads. If so, it will need to be replaced with a balun. This requires a balun, 2 small bolts and nuts, and removal of the rivets holding the twin wire lead on.



Holy Moly! I wish I knew then what I know now. I'd have grabbed a bunch of them!


----------



## Tower Guy

Channel 3 is prone to electrical interference. Take a look at channel 2 analog. If you see rows of noisy dots that crawl up the screen that would confirm electrical inteference. I find electrical interference by tuning a car radio to an unused frequency low in the AM band and drive around listening for a loud buzz. When the buzz is the loudest, the source of the interference is nearby.


Also, look for other obvious problems on channel 2 such as ghosting or airplane flutter. Both of those will hurt DTV reception.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fysa* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I believe my biggest problem here is with CBS -- is there a single antenna solution that will cover everything above? Without a rotor? Looking to attempt an attic installation first due to high-wind concerns and the house being a rental..



A single antenna? Probably not.


But you could buy two Channel Master 4221s and a Channel Master Jointenna for channel 24 and hook the two antennas into that for a single downlead.


Although I normally caution against attic installs, I think you're likely to have success if you're persistent in placement. Don't just stick them up there and expect to have found the best spot.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fysa* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> I believe my biggest problem here is with CBS -- is there a single antenna solution that will cover everything above? Without a rotor? Looking to attempt an attic installation first due to high-wind concerns and the house being a rental..



from what I'm reading you only have a 3 degree difference. I had a 2 degree difference in my case and with my DB8, everyone kept telling me that the antenna would more than cover a 2-3 degree difference when I was telling them I had difficulty getting in the 'off' station. (I have a house in my way which also added to the fun) I initially thought I'd have to get 2 different antennas for the one station that was off but the db8 did get everything in just fine. So you may not need 2 after all.


----------



## slapshot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Channel 3 is prone to electrical interference. Take a look at channel 2 analog. If you see rows of noisy dots that crawl up the screen that would confirm electrical inteference. I find electrical interference by tuning a car radio to an unused frequency low in the AM band and drive around listening for a loud buzz. When the buzz is the loudest, the source of the interference is nearby.
> 
> 
> Also, look for other obvious problems on channel 2 such as ghosting or airplane flutter. Both of those will hurt DTV reception.



Thanks for your help.I didn't think about airplane flutter,that could be a part of it,being under the flight paths of jets coming in to Midway.

Also, just realized there are power lines about half of a mile due ne of me,exactly where I have to point the antenna to the towers downtown. Close enough for them to be a problem on this low VHF frequency?


----------



## kycubsfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rory Boyce* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A good quality preamp at the antenna will easily cancel out all of your loss from your long cable run. It should work fine. You do need to make sure that your preamp/receiver combination does not get overdriven by strong local signals. Preamps with FM radio traps are available if you have any FM stations nearby.



How long of a run is possible with consumer-grade equipment? I'm looking at doing a hilltop tower install, and my only concern is that my lengthy run will result in unacceptable signal loss.


----------



## kdulaney

I am answering your questions


1. Can you provide your general location (to nearest cross streets)?


1105 Blandford Blvd

Redwood City, CA 94062 Cross St is Woodsworth

2. Are there nearby hills or buildings between you and N-W towards Sutro Towers?

There may be some hills and buildings however they are about 3 miles away or further

3. Are you using all new coax or reusing old wiring?

New coax direct run to my HDTV. About 35 foot run. Have installed Winegard amplifier

4. How is the signal split to different rooms and/or devices?

Just direct to the TV through the amplifier. No splits


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> from what I'm reading you only have a 3 degree difference...



On first glance, I thought the same thing. What is so close is distance. Compass readings vary from 0 degrees to 79, with only CBS being due north.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

I've asked this before but didn't get an answer. Whats the best way to split the incoming signal from an OTA antenna, I need at least 4 outputs.


1 to the TV

2 to two HD-DVR's

1 to a stereo receiver for FM reception


All hookups are in the same room.


Thanks.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> On first glance, I thought the same thing. What is so close is distance. Compass readings vary from 0 degrees to 79, with only CBS being due north.



time to head out to grind myself a new eye prescription


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sirchadwick* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I use the MonsterCable splitters.
> 
> 
> The 4 splitter decreases the signal by:
> 
> 
> 5MHz-1GHz: -7.4dB
> 
> 1GHz- 2GHz: -9.6dB
> 
> 
> Stay away from cheapo models!


_When will they ever learn?

When will the ev--er learn?_


From: Where Have All The Flowers Gone

-Lyrics by Pete Seeger

-Recorded by Peter, Paul and Mary


----------



## rca4bg26

I have also experinced problems with directv's H20 off air tuner doesn't seem to be the best built tuner in the world and proved it by using a different tuner (Digital Stream HD1150) in its place. Where the D tuner would not even lock onto the channel the 1150 did just fine, so don't tear your hair out on your antenna install it may be just fine.


Try another tuner if possible first then go after your antenna install.


I agree impulse noise is also a factor and your H20 tuner is already not that great

maybe enough to push it over the edge.


----------



## aaronwt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sirchadwick* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I use the MonsterCable splitters.
> 
> 
> The 4 splitter decreases the signal by:
> 
> 
> 5MHz-1GHz: -7.4dB
> 
> 1GHz- 2GHz: -9.6dB
> 
> 
> Stay away from cheapo models!
> 
> 
> http://monstercable.com/productPage.asp?pin=663



Aren't all OTA frequencies below 900Mhz?


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> _When will they ever learn?
> 
> When will the ev--er learn?_
> 
> 
> From: Where Have All The Flowers Gone
> 
> -Lyrics by Pete Seeger
> 
> -Recorded by Peter, Paul and Mary



P. T. Barnum would have loved him.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Would something like this work for OTA?


Thanks.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *theratpatrol* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Would something like this work for OTA?



Provided that your signal is neither marginally weak (where the noise would be a problem) or nearly too strong (where overload becomes possible from all that amplificaiton) it will work.


----------



## nolanpb

After some research and helped from people here, I am planning on buying a Channelmaster 2001 antenna. I just need help with one more thing. Does anyone know /if I can use a non-penetrating roof mount? Thanks


Nolan


----------



## greywolf

A non penetrating roof mount is normally designed for a flat roof. What do you have? Chimney mounts and eave mounts are some other ways to get an antenna up without drilling the roof.


----------



## nolanpb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greywolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A non penetrating roof mount is normally designed for a flat roof. What do you have? Chimney mounts and eave mounts are some other ways to get an antenna up without drilling the roof.



Thanks for the response. I have a flat roof and would prefer to do no drilling at all, but I am open to suggestions. (obviously







)


Thanks

Nolan


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nolanpb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> After some research and helped from people here, I am planning on buying a Channelmaster 2001 antenna. I just need help with one more thing. Does anyone know /if I can use a non-penetrating roof mount?



Rohn makes a non-penetrating roof mount with a 5', 1-1/4" diameter mast. The part number might be PRN-125 or something like that. As most dealers do not stock that item, you could buy a PRN-166, which had a larger diameter, 1-1/2" ID mast for DirecTV, and drill three, 5/16" holes in any 1-1/4" mast to replace it, which is usually what I do.


If you do find the PRN-125, just make sure that it is being shipped with the 5' mast, as there is a lot of inventory of PRN-125s with 30" masts that were built to accommodate the Sony 18" dishes, and a dealer who was stuck with them shipped me two, with a couple of 3', 1'1/4" mast extensions but with no way to attach them to the mast.


----------



## newsposter

On the topic of non penetrating mounts...reminds me of the time they tried to save $ and put some cinder blocks on some plywood and think that was ok for my 10 ft winegard on my old flat roof.


One storm later, when it was hanging off the edge flat down almost ready to kill the neighbors car, they came out to rescue it and decided it wasn't a good idea afterall.


I'm betting a 18 inch dish would be ok though


----------



## Sirchadwick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> _When will they ever learn?
> 
> When will the ev--er learn?_
> 
> 
> From: Where Have All The Flowers Gone
> 
> -Lyrics by Pete Seeger
> 
> -Recorded by Peter, Paul and Mary



OK, so what is the big deal for using the Monster Cable splitter? Really?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sirchadwick* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> OK, so what is the big deal for using the Monster Cable splitter? Really?



It looks like it's as good as most, but it costs around 5x as much.


----------



## AntAltMike

60% off a $30 Monster 4-way splitter leaves $12, but will not outperform a $3, 4-way splitter


----------



## Sirchadwick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 60% off a $30 Monster 4-way splitter leaves $12, but will not outperform a $3, 4-way splitter



I will have to disagree with you on this topic. As visiting their facility and looking at the components selected in this splitter in comparision to those no name splitters you buy at Rat Shack, there is a difference!


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 60% off a $30 Monster 4-way splitter leaves $12, but will not outperform a $3, 4-way splitter



How did the remark in a post above mine, claiming that the poster got a 60% discount when he bought Monster splitters, manage to disappear, and why?


Wasn't it in a Sirchadwick post? Does he work for a Monster retailer or dealer?


----------



## greywolf

Sir,


It's a much better idea to learn from Mike than to argue with him. He's probably got more experience than the rest of us put together. The only thing he lacks is a better joke writer. Just one thread about Monster may be found at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0&pagenumber=1


----------



## TV Trey

Mike- I'm with you, something like a < $3 CM 7994 would be my choice over the MC spliitter, however i do prefer Johnny Rivers version of "Where Have all the Flowers Gone".


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greywolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It's a much better idea to learn from Mike than to argue with him. He's probably got more experience than the rest of us put together.



I'd agree, up to a point. The question is: what kind of experience does AltAntMike have, and how much does it pertain to someone else's experience or question? I think AltAntMike does a lot of urban/suburban work, so his experience is primarily with strong signal environments with tons of multipath. I think his experience in weak/deep-fringe is much less, and his advice seems to bear this out. Now, most people (statistically) will be in urban/suburban environments, so his experience is worthwhile and germane most of the time.


I believe there is a difference between the splitters above, but that the difference would only be noticable on the weakest signals which means most people wouldn't see any difference. For those who would see a difference, there are probably better parts of the system to upgrade than the splitter.


----------



## slapshot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rca4bg26* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have also experinced problems with directv's H20 off air tuner doesn't seem to be the best built tuner in the world and proved it by using a different tuner (Digital Stream HD1150) in its place. Where the D tuner would not even lock onto the channel the 1150 did just fine, so don't tear your hair out on your antenna install it may be just fine.
> 
> 
> Try another tuner if possible first then go after your antenna install.
> 
> 
> I agree impulse noise is also a factor and your H20 tuner is already not that great
> 
> maybe enough to push it over the edge.



Actually,the H20's are very good at ota reception,it's my HR10's (Tivo) that are having a harder time of it lately on digital channel 3. My old HTL HD receiver that I plugged in just to check couldn't lock on to 3 for anything,whereas the H20's was pretty steady except for the aforementioned dropouts every minute or so.


----------



## AntAltMike

Monster Cable dealers let their employees buy their products for 60% off. I doubt that they are losing money on those sales, so if you take a splitter that Monster can sell at a profit for $12 and charge $30 for it because you call it Monster, how many tenths of a dB does that save?


Blonder Tongue, Sonora and Scientific Atlanta manufacture their products with tender loving care and make them as reliable as possible, but they don't claim that they lose a couple tenths of a dB less of signal, because they don't. The fact that Monster uses one single loss figure for the entire broadcast television band means that they are not even taking their efficiency rating seriously, since it is a physical impossibility to keep a splitter perfectly flat over a range of 800Mz.


In the absence of information to the contrary, I generally assume that the cheaper passive devices lose less signal. I know that the insertion loss of a $20 Jointenna is less than the insertion loss of a $400 Blonder Tongue bandpass filter. When I am trying to rescue an anemic signal, (which I probably do more often than anyone here, because each of my 15-16 channel headends includes one or two stations that are 30 to 40dB below the local ones) I am usually best served by putting a real cheap bandpass filter ahead of the preamp, rather than a more expensive one, or sometimes, I scrape off the strong signals I am trying to avoid preamplifying by using a cheap, cylindrical tier trap, since those have lower insertion losses than any of the more expensive products that I carry.


Go to a television station or a radio station or a cable company headend and see how many Monster products they use. For that matter, thirty years ago, I knew of a few audiophiles who would make sure that all of their RCA connectors were gold plated, but today, as far as I know, no one even makes gold plated XLR connectors, which are the connectors of choice in commercial audio interconnection.


I once installed a $26,000 reflector for ABC News. That unit was manufactured so precisely that the assembly instructions forbade screwing in the several hundred 1/4" fine threaded screws because they said that they had drilled the holes so precisely, the assembler must be able to just push them through the holes, so if you have to screw them in, then one panel is missalinged by a thousandth of an inch or so. ABC actually had a guy checking up on us, to make sure we weren't cheating them by using a battery powered screw driver, but they didn't ask us what we were using for our crimp-on connectors or our passive devices because they didn't care.


Some of you would be surprised to learn that sometimes you actually wind up increasing the strength developed by a fraction of a dB by arbitrarily exchanging cheapo barrel connectors or splitters. Real live RF circuits never wind up with the exact, desired impedance, and sometimes, adding a poor connection or junk component offsets some other mismatch elsewhere and the power development equation is optimized. Unfortunately, you can't predict when and where you will benefit by making a bad situation worse, but I pay no attention the rules of thumb that a barrel splice loses 0.xdB or a UHF balun loses whatever Channel Master or Winegard or HDTV Primer say because I know that baluns vary over the UHF band by several dB, and the ones that you would thing are superior, because of the attributes of their physical construction, actually lose more signals than the junk ones at lots of frequencies.


End of rant.


----------



## AntennaMaster




AntAltMike said:


> Good Quote on the Monster Products... However, I know that the Monster Cable products are superior to the splitters at Rat Shack.
> 
> 
> But on another note, what do you recommend for a splitter manufacturer to go with and lastly for a balun? Again, we are not looking at buying the farm to purchase these, but what would you recommend?


----------



## n8wci

I would like to put up a UHF antenna(s) for DTV. Has anyone compared the Channel Master 4248/3032 to the Winegard PR 9023. Sometimes mfg. gain figures are subjective, or even suspect. I am considering both roof, and attic mount. Also am considering vertical stacking. If going roof, I don't "need" to stack, with all locals being less than 25 m. , but I probably would like to try a little DXing.


n8wci


----------



## n8wci

That Winegard is a PR 9032, not 9023 as I had said previously,


Steve


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntennaMaster* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Good Quote on the Monster Products... However, I know that the Monster Cable products are superior to the splitters at Rat Shack.
> 
> 
> But on another note, what do you recommend for a splitter manufacturer to go with and lastly for a balun? Again, we are not looking at buying the farm to purchase these, but what would you recommend?



Good, cheap splitters/diplexers:
http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf and
http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C3-C4.pdf 


Good cheap balun and combiners/diplexers: http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm 


I have an el-cheapo (like a dollar) 900mhz splitter from Lowe's that I can't even remember the brand of which actually outperforms the Pico splitter by just a little. It's probably an impedance or band specific thing like Mike said. Probably the thing to do is to get a few cheap ones from good companies and experiment and see which work best for you.


The RATSHACK uhf/vhf diplexer is actually very good. It's labeled as a hi/lo separator which is wrong.


For antenna stacking however, I do believe that specially designed strip-line combiners can result in less loss than traditional splitters used in reverse. That's really a different discussion though.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *n8wci* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would like to put up a UHF antenna(s) for DTV. Has anyone compared the Channel Master 4248/3032 to the Winegard PR 9023. Sometimes mfg. gain figures are subjective, or even suspect. I am considering both roof, and attic mount. Also am considering vertical stacking. If going roof, I don't "need" to stack, with all locals being less than 25 m. , but I probably would like to try a little DXing.
> 
> 
> n8wci



The 4248 and the 9032 are comparable,performance wise,with the windload edge going to the 9032.If you want to Dx,horizontal stacking works much better.With locals that close,a Winegard 4700 or HD-269 would be best.


I've got a couple of 9032's if you want them for a fifty spot,plus shipping.Stacking bars can be made easily using 1" galvanized pipe,a tee,and two elbows.About 3ft spacing,and 12" risers.


If you want extreme gain and directivity you can try this 

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...TowerAntennas/ 



Charles,glad you stopped by here.Have any ideas on the best way to protect the R-C LNA from transient surges? Would like to get it back in the air on this stack,but don't want it to let out some more "magic smoke".


Greg B


----------



## JDEATON

I live about 35 miles SW of Atlanta and have an HR10-250 D* DVR. I bought a CM 4228 last week and now have it roof mounted with good results on all DTV channels except 11-1, NBC. Curiously 11-1 has about the best consistent signal strength (92) yet I encounter constant video and audio break up. I also purchased a Winegard channel 10 VHS antenna and have that mounted in the attic. I can eliminate the 11-1 problems by connecting only the Winegard to the receiver, but of course I loose all UHF stations. So far my solution has been to hook both antennas up to an old RS remote controlled coax A/B splitter and to toggle to input B when I watch NBC. It works but its less than a elegant solution. Why am I getting break up on 11-1 through the 4228 when the signal strength is so strong? Is it multipath? Even with the Winegard its almost as if I have to defocus it to the point where the signal is in the low 80's to eliminate the break up on 11-1. Before I bought the CM4228 I had a Yagi in the attic and 11-1 was fine until sometime during the Olympics when the problems started. I also bought a UHF/VHS combiner but that didn't seem to work well and separating the antennas with the switch works much better. I have about 50 to 60 feet of coax from the Antenna to the receiver. Is it possible a CM7777 would help my situation and effectively combine the UHF and VHF signals so I could eliminate the A/B coax switch?


----------



## TV Trey

Try inserting either a variable of fixed attenuator in your line. If you don't have or can't get one locally you can coil-up 50-75 ft. of RG6 and insert with a barrel splicer. Also since you are using the 4228 as a high band VHF antenna as well as UHF, make sure the two reflector panels are and stay touching each other. In your application a preamp should not be required.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you want extreme gain and directivity you can try this
> 
> http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...TowerAntennas/
> 
> Greg B



Oh, yeah? Oh, yeah!


Well, if you want real VERTICAL directivity, try THIS !


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, if you want real VERTICAL directivity, try THIS !



It claims great horizontal directivity, as well.


If only it was broadband instead of single-channel, I'd be seriously drooling. I suppose they work okay for a small range of channels, but probably not over a range from, say, channel 14 to channel 50.


Can you give us a hint as to how much one of those might cost?


The only thing I've read about that might do better is a stacked rhomboid that was talked about in Doug Lung's column a month or two back. That was claiming over 30dB.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The RATSHACK uhf/vhf diplexer is actually very good. It's labeled as a hi/lo separator which is wrong.



Funny you should say that. In another thread, I told someone they could get a VHF/UHF separator from Radio Shack, and they replied that they looked on Shack's site and couldn't find one. I guess that was because they have mis-classified it.


Radio Shack can lose money selling U/V and H/L separators just from the number of sales that result in returned products because the customer didn't realize that the thing he bought did what it did and not what he wanted it to do.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It claims great horizontal directivity, as well.
> 
> 
> If only it was broadband instead of single-channel, I'd be seriously drooling. ...
> 
> 
> Can you give us a hint as to how much one of those might cost?



The antenna pictured in the page I linked is not the one speced at the top of the spec page link that it contains. The antenna in the linked picture has a horizontal beamwidth of 43 degrees but a vertical beamwidth of 9 degrees.


The one you saw speced at the top of that page was a 2x8 stack, which had a horizontal beamwidth figure of 22 degrees, and their 4x8 stack had a horizontal beamwidth of 11 degrees, all of which have the same, 9 degree vertical beamwidth.


Their prices run from about $1,100 for the 8 bay model, to about $4,800 for the 32 bay. Those prices are in Canadian dollars, so you'll have to apply the appropriate exchange rate.


----------



## sebenste

Hey guys,


Take a ChannelMaster 4221 4-bay antenna. Or, a 4228 8-bay antenna.

Now, go to Lowe's, get $4 worth of aluminum window screening.

Cut to two 4' strips, and then make holes every 6 inches or so.

Tie wrap the mesh screen behind the 4221 or 4228. Instant front-to-back rejection of several dB added on, and better receive gain as well. NOTE: do NOT try this on a 4228 mounted outside. The wind load would be killer, and the screen may just rip off anyway.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Charles,glad you stopped by here.Have any ideas on the best way to protect the R-C LNA from transient surges? Would like to get it back in the air on this stack,but don't want it to let out some more "magic smoke".
> 
> 
> Greg B




RS make an in-line coaxial surge protector: http://support.radioshack.com/produc...esults&Reuse=N 


It passes DC (I checked mine). I couldn't find the specs for insertion loss but I wouldn't think it would be much.


Don't ask me to insure it for you though.










Both my RC LNA'a are still up (so far so good, knock on wood).


Now you've got me worrying.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Funny you should say that. In another thread, I told someone they could get a VHF/UHF separator from Radio Shack, and they replied that they looked on Shack's site and couldn't find one. I guess that was because they have mis-classified it.
> 
> 
> .




Here it is: http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 


It appears they've corrected the mislabeling at least on the website. The chassis of the splitter is correctly labeled, it was just the RS packaging which wasn't. I remember detailed instructions for attaching "VHF lo 2-6" to one port and "vhf 7-13/UHF" to the other. It may still be mislabeled at a local store depending on turnover of these things.


RS has changed their website and it seems more difficult to search now.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, if you want real VERTICAL directivity, try THIS !



I've long be fascinated by the Super Zig Zag Series UHF Antennas and would like to try one (or two), but there is no way I can pay the price. I have made my own antennas before and have been thinking of making my own zig zag. Has anyone made your own? Could someone give us some design goals, or spec, or something that would help us understand what we are trying to do if we choose to make our own?


----------



## SoManyInputs

Good Day All,


1) What is the proper length for an antennae element needed to receive RF 10?


2) Any mounting rules or directions?


WJXX-DT 25.1 ABC, deg 57°, 15.4 miles, RF 10


Kind Regards,


SoManyInputs


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SoManyInputs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1) What is the proper length for an antennae element needed to receive RF 10?
> 
> 
> 2) Any mounting rules or directions?
> 
> 
> WJXX-DT 25.1 ABC, deg 57°, 15.4 miles, RF 10



The answer is here: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/R...s.html#Getting 


75" for a straight dipole.


Mount your antenna in free space, with no conductive materials nearby (at least 75" away for channel 10.) Point the dipole so it is perpendicular to the direction of the desired signal.


----------



## n8wci

Max,

I may be interested in your 9032's. Good shape? Was that $50 for the pair? Can they still be disassembled? I'm not too far from you and could pick them up. I need to measure my attic. Is there a way to e-mail directly through this site(I'm new)?


n8wci


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> RS make an in-line coaxial surge protector: http://support.radioshack.com/produc...esults&Reuse=N
> 
> 
> It passes DC (I checked mine). I couldn't find the specs for insertion loss but I wouldn't think it would be much.
> 
> 
> Don't ask me to insure it for you though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both my RC LNA'a are still up (so far so good, knock on wood).
> 
> 
> Now you've got me worrying.



Didn't see any pic,but I assume it's a small barrel type I've seen advertized elsewhere.


This one looks good,and can take multiple hits?

http://www.comm-omni.com/angel/gacoaxgb.htm 


Would this be good between the quad combiner and the preamp? And then a good surge protector to plug the power supply into?


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *n8wci* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Max,
> 
> I may be interested in your 9032's. Good shape? Was that $50 for the pair? Can they still be disassembled? I'm not too far from you and could pick them up. I need to measure my attic. Is there a way to e-mail directly through this site(I'm new)?
> 
> 
> n8wci



Yes,they are like new,and that's for the pair.Just email me from my homepage....

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/DXPHOTOS/ 


BTW,I'll be in Hamilton tomorrow morning at 10AM picking up some tower stuff at R&L electronics.How's that for a coincidence!


----------



## hdtv4prs

I recently upgraded my 25 yr. old RS 160 " vhf/uhf on a 30' tower /w rotor. I used the following:

CM 4228 UHF

Wade VIP-306 VHF

CM 7777 Titan pre-amp

CM 9521A rotor/controller

All new RG-6 coax/ rotor wiring


I now get all Cleveland HD stations with no drop-offs and 92-98 Signal strength. Live about 45 miles south of Parma Farm. Below are some pics.


----------



## ST RICH

I have a Channel Master 4221. I am trying to pick up two additional stations at the fringe of my reception area. I have a bar read out system on my TV tuner. I am receiving one flashing bar (not a steady lock) on the system for each channel. I receive a clear digital picture with a one steady bar signal (that is all I need to recieve the station).


Will a preamp help lock in the signals? OR Should I upgrade to the Channel Master 4228, which has a greater range? Any suggestions will be appreciated. Thanks...


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Didn't see any pic,but I assume it's a small barrel type I've seen advertized elsewhere.
> 
> 
> This one looks good,and can take multiple hits?
> 
> http://www.comm-omni.com/angel/gacoaxgb.htm
> 
> 
> Would this be good between the quad combiner and the preamp? And then a good surge protector to plug the power supply into?



I'm not sure, but I believe the RS model is "one and done" so you may be better off with the one you found. Yes, the RS is a small barrel type.


I wouldn't think .1db would be significant at all assuming that spec. is correct.


Are you sure the surge was from the antenna itself? To me that would indicate a near-hit by lightning. A direct hit wouldn't have been so subtle I'd think.










The reason I say this is I'd think a transient power surge would've come up the other way and so the protector would be better used on the downlead side. If that's the case maybe the surge protector on the PS is all you need.


I'm not sure anything will protect the LNA from a direct lightning strike to the antenna. I know you're properly grounded but for anyone else reading this that is the main safety concern here. The risks we take I guess.


----------



## jvargasg

Hey Guys, I am just getting into all this HDTV thing, I just bought the TV, hasn't arrived yet, looking forward to hook it up, so I am getting ready trying to learn all this about getting OTA HD programming, I have been reading a lot here but I don't know what to try so I can get every possible channel (VHF and UHF) even thougt the towers have differetn locations. I am only interested in the HD channels since I get local channels thru Directv.

My situation is like this I don't have tall buildings or anything that can block the signals pointing north (+/-5 degrees), I live in a two story house and is one of the few two story house in the neighborhood. this is what antennaweb says for my case:

* red - uhf WTTO-DT 21.1 WB HOMEWOOD AL 1° 10.1 28

* red - uhf WIAT-DT 42.1 CBS BIRMINGHAM AL 1° 10.1 30

* red - vhf WJSU-DT 40.1 ABC ANNISTON AL 51° 29.1 9

* red - uhf WVTM-DT 13.1 NBC BIRMINGHAM AL 5° 10.6 52

* red - uhf WABM-DT 68.1 UPN BIRMINGHAM AL 1° 10.1 36

* red - uhf WBIQ-DT 10.1 PBS BIRMINGHAM AL 1° 10.1 53

* red - uhf WBRC-DT 6.1 FOX BIRMINGHAM AL 4° 10.4 50

* blue - uhf WDBB-DT 18.1 WB BESSEMER AL TBD 287° 35.6 18

* blue - vhf WCFT-DT 33.1 ABC TUSCALOOSA AL 287° 37.2 5


So I am thinking in get me a good directional (VHF-UHF) indoor antenna and I was thinking in something like the Terk HDTVi Indoor VHF/UHF HDTV Antenna (HDTVi) that you can find in solidsignal (webpage)

I would like to know from the experts here what do you think about it and what kind fo setup do you recommend to me, somethign not so expensive please, the wife is already mad about the 1700 dls TV so I don't want to spend more than a couple hundreds in the whole setup.


Thanks in advance

JV


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The answer is here: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/R...s.html#Getting
> 
> 
> 75" for a straight dipole.



I checked the link and confirmed that 75" is the length HDTVPrimer advises, but I'm not a believer. The dipole is supposed to be made of two 1/4 wavelength elements, making it half that width. 75" is the width of part of an FM antenna, which works sucky on channel 10.


If a dipole equal to the desired frequency's wave length was a valid design, then someone would be manufacturing them, but no one is.


----------



## MrMolding




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey guys,
> 
> 
> Take a ChannelMaster 4221 4-bay antenna. Or, a 4228 8-bay antenna.
> 
> Now, go to Lowe's, get $4 worth of aluminum window screening.
> 
> Cut to two 4' strips, and then make holes every 6 inches or so.
> 
> Tie wrap the mesh screen behind the 4221 or 4228. Instant front-to-back rejection of several dB added on, and better receive gain as well. NOTE: do NOT try this on a 4228 mounted outside. The wind load would be killer, and the screen may just rip off anyway.



I wouldn't mind giving this a try, but can you give more details about the 4' strips and where to make holes? Is the object to cover the entire reflector on my 4221 with screening or only two parts of it? Got any pictures? Thanks!


----------



## Jesse31

Grounding question...I have a garage located 200' from house...at the garage I have a 50' telescoping mast...mast is grounded with 8' rod...the garage has power feed from house, but there is no bonding wire on the garage service (so the house service and garage service are at different ground potential)...my question is where do I ground the coax?...at the point where it enters the house or at the grounding rod at the garage?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ST RICH* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Will a preamp help lock in the signals? OR Should I upgrade to the Channel Master 4228, which has a greater range? Any suggestions will be appreciated. Thanks...



This is why I hate those on-screen meters. They're great for telling you how well things are working, *IF* they're working, but they're horrible for telling you why things aren't working when they aren't. Quite simply, you could have one of two problems, and the solutions are usually different.


In your case, I'd get the better antenna (4228) first. It solves many multipath problems, and it has more gain for weaker signals.


If you really don't want to mess with the antenna, try a preamp, but make sure the store has a good return policy.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I checked the link and confirmed that 75" is the length HDTVPrimer advises, but I'm not a believer. The dipole is supposed to be made of two 1/4 wavelength elements, making it half that width. 75" is the width of part of an FM antenna, which works sucky on channel 10.
> 
> 
> If a dipole equal to the desired frequency's wave length was a valid design, then someone would be manufacturing them, but no one is.



Upon further reflection, I agree. The part on the length of the rabbit ears was the better length to use, or 43".


----------



## TheRatPatrol




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hdtv4prs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I recently upgraded my 25 yr. old RS 160 " vhf/uhf on a 30' tower /w rotor. I used the following:
> 
> CM 4228 UHF
> 
> Wade VIP-306 VHF
> 
> CM 7777 Titan pre-amp
> 
> CM 9521A rotor/controller
> 
> All new RG-6 coax/ rotor wiring
> 
> 
> I now get all Cleveland HD stations with no drop-offs and 92-98 Signal strength. Live about 45 miles south of Parma Farm. Below are some pics.



Looks great! Wish I could do that here. Whats the antenna all the way at the top, is that an AM antenna or? Thanks.


----------



## TheRatPatrol




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes,they are like new,and that's for the pair.Just email me from my homepage....
> 
> http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/DXPHOTOS/
> 
> 
> BTW,I'll be in Hamilton tomorrow morning at 10AM picking up some tower stuff at R&L electronics.How's that for a coincidence!



I can't believe you get all those stations. Thats amazing!


----------



## jjnv

I got my CM 4221 after work today and tried it. I did not have much time to fine tune it. But I had hard time getting anything through it. I first tried it in my bedroom connecting directly to my HD tuner. It was as sensitive to direction as my little Terk indoor antenna if not more so. So I put it in the attic and I could only get one channel to go through. On the other hand, if I move my Terk up to the Attic, I can easily get a few channels.


I read a lot about the CM 4221 before I ordered. I thought this one is supposed to be not very directional. I really expected it to perform better than my little Terk indoor antenna. What could I possiblely done wrong?


Please help.


Jane


----------



## davefre99

Maybe its just me but why do so many people try to make an antenna thats meant to be installed outside with a clear shot at the transmitters work in an attic that blocks at least 50% of the signal. Yea I know there are HMO situations and nobody wants to climb on there roof and install a mast and run cables but in my opinion most of the time if you have reception problems your never gona be happy with a castrated attic install.

Dont take this personal its just my opinion having worked for more than 20 years in the Tv & satellite business.

One reason the terk may be seem better inside is IF I am not mistaken dosn't it have a pre-amp on it. The ch 4221 is a good medium range antenna and should work well if all your stations are in one general direction but they are still a directional antenna and need to be pointed correctly including elevation. Attics aften have wire in the walls that can block signals too.


----------



## greywolf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jesse31* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Grounding question...I have a garage located 200' from house...at the garage I have a 50' telescoping mast...mast is grounded with 8' rod...the garage has power feed from house, but there is no bonding wire on the garage service (so the house service and garage service are at different ground potential)...my question is where do I ground the coax?...at the point where it enters the house or at the grounding rod at the garage?



Code says the coax must be grounded near where it enters the building. It also says any equipment grounding rod must be bonded to the main house ground with 6ga copper or better.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I checked the link and confirmed that 75" is the length HDTVPrimer advises, but I'm not a believer. The dipole is supposed to be made of two 1/4 wavelength elements, making it half that width. 75" is the width of part of an FM antenna, which works sucky on channel 10.
> 
> 
> If a dipole equal to the desired frequency's wave length was a valid design, then someone would be manufacturing them, but no one is.



Classic dipole lengths are given here:
http://kyes.info/antenna/rabbitear.html#wavetable 


However, don't overlook the possibility that an overly long antenna (e.g. the hdtvprimer recommendations) may also provide "accceptable" performance, esp. when used with 45 degree angle.

A matching network in the base of the rabbit ears can also help with non-optimum rabbit ear lengths....cuz hardly anyone wants to mess with changing the length every time they change channels....on top of the orientation and matching network setting....


Of course, rabbit ears are still the worst of the worst....very narrowband vice an antenna with a broadband feed or a folded dipole....


You might find the fol rabbit ear antenna simulations of interest.

They address the fairly narrow bandwidth across the FM band, but the gain numbers should remain about the same when the antenna is scaled to different TV frequency/lengths.
http://users.tns.net/~bb/rabbit.htm 


Specialty manufacturers make single channel two-five element antennas, mostly for cable front-end reception...

But how many people only want to watch one channel.....

Same argument would apply to a single element dipole....however, since it would have zero suppression of mutipath, performance would be pathetic...


Which is why antenna manufacturers have developed BROADBAND multi-element antennas that provide suppression of multipath (F/B ratio) and have much more gain than rabbit ears across most of the VHF band...

Of course, they no longer fit on top of your TV set....


----------



## Phantom Gremlin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I checked the link and confirmed that 75" is the length HDTVPrimer advises, but I'm not a believer. The dipole is supposed to be made of two 1/4 wavelength elements, making it half that width. 75" is the width of part of an FM antenna, which works sucky on channel 10.
> 
> 
> If a dipole equal to the desired frequency's wave length was a valid design, then someone would be manufacturing them, but no one is.



I wonder if there's a typo in hdtvprimer data?


Using f = 197 MHz and knowing that 2.997e8 = f * wavelength (can't type symbol for lambda), I see wavelength is approx 1.54 meters. Adjusting a little for the "end effect" mentioned at kyes.info means 1/2 wavelenth is around 74 cm. Not coincidentally that's what kyes.info has in its table for channel 10.


So maybe hdtvprimer data was meant to be in cm but was shown in inches.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *davefre99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Maybe its just me but why do so many people try to make an antenna thats meant to be installed outside with a clear shot at the transmitters work in an attic that blocks at least 50% of the signal. Yea I know there are HMO situations and nobody wants to climb on there roof and install a mast and run cables but in my opinion most of the time if you have reception problems your never gona be happy with a castrated attic install.
> 
> Dont take this personal its just my opinion having worked for more than 20 years in the Tv & satellite business.
> 
> One reason the terk may be seem better inside is IF I am not mistaken dosn't it have a pre-amp on it. The ch 4221 is a good medium range antenna and should work well if all your stations are in one general direction but they are still a directional antenna and need to be pointed correctly including elevation. Attics aften have wire in the walls that can block signals too.



I've looked at about a dozen different on-air tests that attempted to measure the loss of an indoor/attic mounted antenna vs an outdoor antenna at (usually) 30-foot height.

There are, of course, many parameters that affect this loss, including loss due to lower antenna height (partially due to loss of ground bounce gain), loss due to building materials and the ever difficult to quantify location loss due to perhaps being in a multipath null for one or more desired channels.


Indoor/Attic loss has been found to be more like 13 dB +/- 6 dB.


In addition to this signal loss, there are also degradations due to the Mess O' Multipath....


Recall Bob Chase's 3/28/05 post re outdoor vs attic measurements which generally show 15-25 dB difference:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1post5399471 



50 percent (3 db) is the figment of someone's wishful hoping....


====================================================

So why do we keep trying indoor and attic locations....because for many of us we get lucky and it WORKS!!!!


So we don't have to hassle with mounting an antenna, guy wires, downlead weatherproof entry to the house, ground wire system, etc while adhering to electrical code, building weatherproofing integrity and various other (WAF, etc) restrictions.


Most people would need to hire a professional installer---which is completely contrary to OTA user's primary goal---avoid spending bunches of money---otherwise might as well bite the bullet and pay the cable/sat company....


=====================================================

P.S. My son's attic mounted CM4228 and Preamp reliably picks up ALL of the digital stations in L.A.----

He is 70 miles away from 6000-ft high Mt Wilson....and definitely not line of sight...


----------



## holl_ands

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Phantom Gremlin*
I wonder if there's a typo in hdtvprimer data?


Using f = 197 MHz and knowing that 2.997e8 = f * wavelength (can't type symbol for lambda), I see wavelength is approx 1.54 meters. Adjusting a little for the "end effect" mentioned at kyes.info means 1/2 wavelenth is around 74 cm. Not coincidentally that's what kyes.info has in its table for channel 10.


So maybe hdtvprimer data was meant to be in cm but was shown in inches.
Even if cm, still doesn't make sense....and bigger differences for high channel numbers than lower.....weird...


And don't forget the 45 degree angle for Rabbit Ears....the projection onto either the horizontal or vertical component is reduced by 0.707.


FYI: Here is a quickie LPDA CH10 design showing element sizes that are consistent with KYES website I cited above:

[You'll have to remove the *.txt to recover the *.xls file extension.]

 

LOGPERIODIC for CH10.xls.txt 59k . file


----------



## hdtv4prs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *theratpatrol* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Looks great! Wish I could do that here. Whats the antenna all the way at the top, is that an AM antenna or? Thanks.



The top of the mast antenna is the CM 4228 UHF and the lower antenna is the Wade VIP-306 VHF. Then a upper thrust bearing to help support the CM 9521A rotor which is 4' below on the tower. The rotating mast is 10' long. Below on the tower is a DirecTv satellite dish. This setup works great for deep fringe OTA HD broadcasts.


----------



## jjnv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *davefre99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Maybe its just me but why do so many people try to make an antenna thats meant to be installed outside with a clear shot at the transmitters work in an attic that blocks at least 50% of the signal. Yea I know there are HMO situations and nobody wants to climb on there roof and install a mast and run cables but in my opinion most of the time if you have reception problems your never gona be happy with a castrated attic install.
> 
> Dont take this personal its just my opinion having worked for more than 20 years in the Tv & satellite business.
> 
> One reason the terk may be seem better inside is IF I am not mistaken dosn't it have a pre-amp on it. The ch 4221 is a good medium range antenna and should work well if all your stations are in one general direction but they are still a directional antenna and need to be pointed correctly including elevation. Attics aften have wire in the walls that can block signals too.



Thanks for the help. I do have the option to install it outside. But I was just testing it out and see. I did get the CM 7777 to go with it. Somehow, it was worse with the CM 7777. Not even one channel would go through. That is why I want to understand what is wrong before I send my husband up to the roof.


So you think this thing will magically pick up many channels once I move it outside? I can try to hold it out side of my window and see how big of a difference that makes.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *davefre99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Maybe its just me but why do so many people try to make an antenna thats meant to be installed outside with a clear shot at the transmitters work in an attic that blocks at least 50% of the signal.



I've argued the same thing, and I've gotten responses along these lines:


1) Maintenance-free. No corrosion. No antenna getting blown by the wind, falling over, etc. Install it and forget it. The antenna doesn't wear out and need replacing.


2) No chance of lightning strikes. (Ignores the fact that a properly grounded antenna is not a likely target for lightning. However, an indoor install eliminates the difficulties of properly grounding the antenna.)


3) Aesthetics. If it works inside, why have it poking above the roofline. (I think this is bunk. Nobody sees my 54' tower. I have to point it out to them.)


Maybe those aren't important to you. I agree that poor reception has a lower WAF than an antenna on the roof. However, many people have had good success with attic installs in spite of the performance degradation. While I still don't recommend an attic install, I understand why some people attempt them.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jjnv* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I read a lot about the CM 4221 before I ordered. I thought this one is supposed to be not very directional. I really expected it to perform better than my little Terk indoor antenna. What could I possiblely done wrong?



You don't say how far you are from your stations, or if they're full power, etc. so it's hard to know for sure. But most likely the problem is not gain but multipath. Multipath is a just a simple way of saying you're receiving reflections off of other objects (especially buildings, cars, etc. that have high metal content) as well as the primary signal. On analog signals, this looks like "ghosts." The 4221 has more gain, and would thus pick up ghosts better than the Terk. The extreme directional sensitivity suggests multipath as well, since the 4221 has a wide acceptance angle - likely you're getting the reflections into nulls when you fine-tune the aim.


The solution is not a preamplifier. A preamplifier only fixes weak signals - what looks like snow on analog channels. The solution is more directivity. A 4228 would probably be a good choice if the 4221 isn't working. The 4228 is much more directional, which makes it more resistant to multipath.


If you're installing an antenna in your attic, keep it as far away as possible from other metal objects (nails, roofing materials, etc.) I have read many times that people have gotten better reception at the floor of the attic than the peak.


I assume the reason outdoor installs aren't an option for you is because you don't own your roof - either as a renter or as part of a condo. Almost all other rule-based reasons (historical districts are the sole exception) not to put up an outdoor antenna are actually illegal and can be ignored. See: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html


----------



## mbabauer

My brother in law has a Westinghouse LTV-27W2 27" LCD tv, and he picked up a RadioShack 15-1892 indoor antenna. He was all proud of the open-box deal he got, but alas there was no owners manual.


I was trying to tell him that the HDTV feeds would be void of snow and display in 16:9 instead of 4:3. I tried looking around in Google and checked the Radio Shack site, but I cannot find a PDF of the owners manual for the antenna.


Can anyone tell me what the heck I am doing? What do I set on the attenna? Do I set the TV for Cable TV, Antenna, or what? Also, what do all those fields on antennaweb.org mean? Does anyone have the PDF owners manual they can send me? The only HD experience I have had is with cable (Bright House) and satelite (DirectTV), and my bro-in-law is too cheap to get either of those.


----------



## jjnv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You don't say how far you are from your stations, or if they're full power, etc. so it's hard to know for sure. But most likely the problem is not gain but multipath. Multipath is a just a simple way of saying you're receiving reflections off of other objects (especially buildings, cars, etc. that have high metal content) as well as the primary signal. On analog signals, this looks like "ghosts." The 4221 has more gain, and would thus pick up ghosts better than the Terk. The extreme directional sensitivity suggests multipath as well, since the 4221 has a wide acceptance angle - likely you're getting the reflections into nulls when you fine-tune the aim.
> 
> 
> The solution is not a preamplifier. A preamplifier only fixes weak signals - what looks like snow on analog channels. The solution is more directivity. A 4228 would probably be a good choice if the 4221 isn't working. The 4228 is much more directional, which makes it more resistant to multipath.
> 
> 
> If you're installing an antenna in your attic, keep it as far away as possible from other metal objects (nails, roofing materials, etc.) I have read many times that people have gotten better reception at the floor of the attic than the peak.
> 
> 
> I assume the reason outdoor installs aren't an option for you is because you don't own your roof - either as a renter or as part of a condo. Almost all other rule-based reasons (historical districts are the sole exception) not to put up an outdoor antenna are actually illegal and can be ignored. See: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html



Hi, thanks a lot for the explanation. Here are the information on the 7 stations I'd like to get. The last one is optional.


1. lt green - uhf WFPT 62 PBS FREDERICK MD 11° 20.1 62

oR blue - uhf WETA 26 PBS WASHINGTON DC 113° 13.6 26

*


* red - uhf WUSA-DT 9.1 CBS WASHINGTON DC 115° 15.2 34

* blue - uhf WTTG-DT 5.1 FOX WASHINGTON DC 114° 14.9 36

* blue - uhf WRC-DT 4.1 NBC WASHINGTON DC 118° 15.2 48

* blue - uhf WJLA-DT 7.1 ABC WASHINGTON DC 115° 15.2 39

* blue - uhf WETA-DT 26.1 PBS WASHINGTON DC 134° 14.3 27


violet - uhf WBDC-DT 50.1 WB WASHINGTON DC 110° 17.7 51


With my Terk indoor antenna, I can get the first 6 with some luck and patient. But almost once a week, the signal would change somehow. Since I use a DVR, I would find out almost always too late.


I do own the house. I actually have a roof top antenna that comes with the house. But it only picks up analog stations. That is why I disconnected it, and tried to put an antenna in the attic. We can install the 4221 on roof top. I just have very little faith with that since I have not seen much coming through that antenna at all. Is it possible to that I have a defect one?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jjnv* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I do own the house. I actually have a roof top antenna that comes with the house. But it only picks up analog stations. That is why I disconnected it, and tried to put an antenna in the attic. We can install the 4221 on roof top. I just have very little faith with that since I have not seen much coming through that antenna at all. Is it possible to that I have a defect one?



First of all, all your stations are within 20 miles so you don't want a preamp. Ever. Signal strength is not going to be your problem. Multipath is, and preamps can make that worse (and they can overload, which makes things bad, too.)


There is no such thing as an antenna that only picks up analog stations. It is highly likely that your existing outdoor antenna would work, though it might have a flaky connection and need to have the balun and maybe the coax connectors replaced.


At 15-20 miles, the 4221 is an excellent choice for an outdoor install. It concerns me that you're getting poor reception with it in your attic - is it possible that your connectors (coax) are bad? I recommend the 4221 to lots of people within 30 miles of transmitters, and they almost never have problems with them - in fact, they report that all their problems go away once they use the 4221.


What do analog UHF stations look like with the 4221? Are they ghosty? Snowy? Both? How about with the outdoor antenna?


You're close enough to Fairfax that calling Fairfax Antennas might be the way to go - they can come out and troubleshoot your existing antenna, or install a replacement. They're one of the best in the country, and they have lots of experience with your area and digital signals. It might seem expensive to call them in at first, but a quality install will beat basic cable in months.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hdtv4prs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I recently upgraded my 25 yr. old RS 160 " vhf/uhf on a 30' tower /w rotor. I used the following:
> 
> CM 4228 UHF
> 
> Wade VIP-306 VHF
> 
> CM 7777 Titan pre-amp
> 
> CM 9521A rotor/controller
> 
> All new RG-6 coax/ rotor wiring



Heh. You've got almost the same setup I'm considering to replace *my* RS 160", except for the Wade. Is it for both low- and high-VHF, or just high-VHF? I'd prefer a high-VHF-only solution, because the only low-VHF signals I get are analog ones that I never watch anymore, and no stations around here are using or going to use low-VHF digital after the analog shutdown. Most of the high-VHF channels will be in use, though. I've got some info at home about an Antennacraft that just does high-VHF, but I forgot the model number.


To give me a sense of scale for your pictures, about how long is the Wade?


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Phantom Gremlin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I wonder if there's a typo in hdtvprimer data?
> 
> 
> Using f = 197 MHz and knowing that 2.997e8 = f * wavelength (can't type symbol for lambda), I see wavelength is approx 1.54 meters. Adjusting a little for the "end effect" mentioned at kyes.info means 1/2 wavelenth is around 74 cm. Not coincidentally that's what kyes.info has in its table for channel 10.
> 
> 
> So maybe hdtvprimer data was meant to be in cm but was shown in inches.



75" / 2.54cm/in.= 29.5", which is about an inch wider than the dipoles on the channel 9 antennas that I stacked to slightly improve their front-to-back ratio at the Encore Condominium, so Phanton Gremlin wins the cupie doll.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Phantom Gremlin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (can't type symbol for lambda)



FYI: When I have to type a symbol I can't type, and when I care (which I ordinarily don't in these user-group type forums), I find a page elsewhere on the net in which the symbol was used, and cut and paste it into my own sentence.


----------



## newsposter

or hunt through the windows character map..that's fun!


----------



## Audiguy3

Excellent review of the Televes DAT-75 HDTV Antenna in April 2006 Sound and Vision

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...rticle_id=1289


----------



## milehighmike

From A4Short:


> Quote:
> Excellent review of the Televes DAT-75 HDTV Antenna in April 2006 Sound and Vision



I really don't mean to criticize your opinion, especially that of a fellow front range resident, but I tend to disagree with you. The review states that the antenna is "designed specifically to capture HD signals". Didn't know there was such a thing. The article also cites a 17 dB gain but the web page link in the article cites a 19 dB gain. Finally, an attic mount was used for the test.


----------



## AntAltMike

λ


----------



## greywolf

That just gave me a taste for a slice of ¶


----------



## dr1394

Length of a dipole formulas:


feet = 468/f in MHz


inches = 5616/f in MHz


Ron


----------



## hdtv4prs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Heh. You've got almost the same setup I'm considering to replace *my* RS 160", except for the Wade. Is it for both low- and high-VHF, or just high-VHF? I'd prefer a high-VHF-only solution, because the only low-VHF signals I get are analog ones that I never watch anymore, and no stations around here are using or going to use low-VHF digital after the analog shutdown. Most of the high-VHF channels will be in use, though. I've got some info at home about an Antennacraft that just does high-VHF, but I forgot the model number.
> 
> 
> To give me a sense of scale for your pictures, about how long is the Wade?



The Canadian built Paralog VHF-only antenna has been around for over 30 years and was built to handle severe Canadian weather. It is 149" long with the following info:

Lo-VHF (ch 2-6) 6-7 gain (dBd)

Hi-VHF (ch7-13) 10-12 gain (dBd)


To see the antenna : www.wade-antenna.com 


The U.S. distributor is : Lafayette Electronic Supply

Layayatte, Indiana

765-447-9660


----------



## Solfan

I just saw this funny-looking one in the "character" map, I wonder what it means? )*(


----------



## TV Trey

The optional MRD was designed to eliminate impulsive noise which can plague certain digitally modulated carriers. Perhaps this is why Televes advertises as "designed for HD signals". Relative to the dB claim,17dBd and 19dBi are basically the same.


----------



## quarque

Anyone know of side-by-side comparison between the DB4 and the 4221? They look to be identical in design but I see posts saying the 4221 performs "much better". Seems a little hard to believe there would be a significant difference.


----------



## erichammer

Hi all,


This is my first post here. I looked through the forums for an answer to this question, but found none so I thought I'd post. I live in Brooklyn, NY. Antenna web lists more than 30 different stations within reach for me, some as close as 4 miles, most a little more than 8 miles. However, I do live in a basement apartment. I really, really don't want to have to mount an antenna on the roof. I've tried three indoor antennas:


1. Terk TV5

2. Zenith Silver Sensor

3. Radio Shack Amplified Indoor Antenna


The only one that gave me any reception was the RS. Unfortunately, it did not seem to get reliable reception. I am using BeyondTV and at times, it got 98% signal (only on two channels though) and at other times, it got 0% and everything in between. For a while, I thought I had found the sweet spot, but it flaked out. Strangely, it didn't matter if I moved the antenna. It could have great reception one minute, then flake out the next and all I'm doing is staring at the screen.


Anyway, I plan to return it to RS and try an outdoor antenna, but I don't want to go with a roof antenna. I don't believe I could do it myself and don't want to spend hundreds of dollars for a professional to install it for me. I was looking around and found the Terk HDTVs which it says is designed for cities where it is not always practical to mount an antenna on the roof and it says it can be mounted on the side of a building since it picks up signals bounced off other buildings.


I know from looking around the forums that people here feel Terk products suck, but this is the only one I've found that is supposed to be able to do this. Does anyone have a reccomendation for something else which might do something similar? I'm thinking of mounting it on top of an awning in the back of the house, which does have a reasonably unobstructed view. Not as good as a roof of course, but not terrible and if I can get it working there, even if not with all stations, I'll be thrilled. From there, it's only around 20 feet or so to my window so it would be reasonably easy to install up there.


Or anternatively, anyone know of a better indoor antenna or would something like the motorola signal booster help me?


Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.


Eric


----------



## mterzich

That sounds like a bunch of marketing hype to me that it can pick up signals that bounce off of buildings. In fact, that is what you don't want. I would suggest that you go out and get a 20' coax and connect it to the indoor antenna that you have and have a friend hold it where you want it to be. If that works reasonably well, then just get a good quality outdoor antenna and install it at that location. If it does work reasonably well, then you have too many obstructions to have it mounted at that location.


In fact, since the stations are within 8 miles, even any indoor/outdoor (one that can withstand the weather) antenna should work including rabbit ears.


----------



## erichammer

Thanks for the advice. Maybe when I go back to RS with my indoor antenna I'll see if they have some kind of decent outdoor antenna and test it around various outdoor locations. . .nice thing about RS is that if it doesn't do the job, I can always return it for a refund. . .


Eric


----------



## Solfan

The 4221 [AKA cm3021] looks to be cheaper, as low as $21.


I've been using it for years [about 15 miles from transmitters, it's a great antenna.


There is a test report here, but it doesn't include the DB4, FWIW.

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/antoutpf.htm


----------



## WinstonSmith

Eric,


My buddy down the street from me has what I think is the Terk you're referring to.


He did not want to mount an antenna in his attic either, so he elected to get that Terk which was simple. It works pretty well for him.


Just to give you an idea.... I live on the same block and have a regular antenna in my attic and I get a little better reception than he does -- a little stronger signal. But, his does very well.


Give it a shot, if it doesn't work, take it back.


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Solfan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The 4221 [AKA cm3021] looks to be cheaper, as low as $21.
> 
> 
> I've been using it for years [about 15 miles from transmitters, it's a great antenna.
> 
> 
> There is a test report here, but it doesn't include the DB4, FWIW.
> 
> http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/antoutpf.htm



Thanks. I know the 4221 is good - I have one on my roof.







What I'm looking for is some hard data on the DB4, preferrably side-by-side tests with 4221 or similar. One guy in our local HD reception forum says the DB4 is junk and I just don't believe it. I can see how the construction might not be as good but the performance should be nearly identical to the 4221.


----------



## holl_ands

Televes claims that the stacked triple director design results in vertical nulls in the antenna pattern....

Which may (or may not) be useful in reducing multipath by suppressing the ground bounce signal component.


The $50 MRD (Margin Rising Device) is an awkward name for a UHF-only Preamp (13 dB Gain, 2 dB Noise Figure, 102 dBuV Overload).

Televes claims that it somehow (clipping???) "eliminates the impulsive noise for digital television signal":
http://www.televes.com/hojastecnicas/103182.pdf 


The antenna elevation angle must be adjusted so that hopefully (after many hours of hunt and peck), the user can minimize the impulse noise coming in from cars, fluorescent lights, motor brushes arcing over, etc if they happen to be between the transmitter and the antenna:
http://www.televes.com/ingles/asiste...%20Aerials.pdf 


Since Televes is a located in Spain, their claim of reducing impulse noise may be of interest to Europeans, since they use the DVB-T (COFDM) system that is much more susceptible to impulse noise.....as is also their analog PAL (and our analog NTSC) system.


Various laboratory tests have shown that ATSC is relatively immune to impulse noise....which is predominantly a VHF rather than UHF phenemona.


====================================

So is it worth $250 + shipping (incl MRD)????? Yikes!!!!


PS: Televes Gain and F/B numbers appear to be maximum values for the absolute best frequency, rather than average values more commonly encoutered.

The fol. 10 dBd gain (low freqs) to 15 dBd gain (high freqs) simulation results are much more believable:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


See the "Long Range Test" where the DAT-75 was good....but missed two stations that other antenna received.....but none of them were "perfect":
http://www.atechfabrication.com/reception_solutions.htm 


If you read the antenna thread you'l find that most on-air comparisons show the DAT-75 to be inferior to other, lower-cost, long Yagis....


And when you're trying an attic location, stations will move back and forth between GOOD and NOGO as you try different locations--and heights in the attic.

Which is where the shorter length of the DAT-75 may prove advantageous.....


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The $50 MRD is used to vary the elevation angle on the antenna so that *hopefully (after many hours of hunt and peck)...*
> 
> 
> Various laboratory tests have shown that ATSC is relatively immune to impulse noise....which is predominantly a VHF rather than UHF phenemona.



What's an MRD? A tilter that is supposed to help steer a vertical null into the impulse noise elevation? That would be a real, wishful thinking remedy.


FWIW, I installed the off-air antenna reception array at National Captioning Institute's headquarters in Vienna, Virginia, and we couldn't reliably develop the closed captions from Baltimore's ABC's channel 2 transmitter using either of their discrete decoder boxes (one commercial grade, one residential) even though we had line of site reception and the signal level developed off the cut-to-channel Yagi was well over 10dB, making its S/N ratio measured with respect to the thermal noise floor surely over 70dB, while the Washington ABC channel 7 captioning was rock solid.


I always speculated that the captioning, which is digitally encoded into the vertical blanking pulse, was getting nailed by impulse bursts like the ones that appeared as confetti on the channel 2 pictures. I don't know the history of the implementation of forward error correction, but perhaps either it wasn't in wide use in 1994, or not used in those relatively inexpensive and technologically unsophisticated devices.


----------



## holl_ands

Initially I thought the MRD was another name for a tiler rising device....until I chased down the Televes links....it's just a Preamp....that normally works with a 240 VAC Power Insertion Module....so it probably requires a 120 VAC Power Insertion Module (like C-M Model 0747).


Which begs the question on how the user is supposed to adjust the elevation angle....I didn't see any adjusters...


----------



## Geordon




> Quote:
> ====================================
> 
> So is it worth $250 + shipping (incl MRD)????? Yikes!!!!



I think I paid less than $200 for two DAT-75 shipped UPS directly from Televes in Spain. They were under $60 apiece, and shipping is the same for one or two units, so I bought two.


----------



## intrac

This site is about the only site I've seen that shows the 4221, DB4, and others.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## AntAltMike

If two antennas look alike, then they will perform alike. Polar plots are more useful in helping you determine that one type of antenna is better for your situation than is another.


----------



## scottyja

I have yet to build my HTPC w/ the HD tuners, and before I do, I want to ensure that I'm going to pick up the local HD channels. I thought the question I have might apply to more than just my area, so I'm not posting in my specific locale (I live in Tucson, AZ).


All/most of the local VHF SD channels and the UHF HD channels are broadcast from a local mountain about 20 miles from my home. My indoor antenna is picking up the VHF channels without a problem. Is it safe to assume that if I'm getting the VHF signals indoors from that location that I'll get the UHF signals from the same location?


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If two antennas look alike, then they will perform alike.



I am so glad someone finally said that...


----------



## TV Trey

FWIW about 2 1/2 years ago i purchase and installed 3 of the DAT-75 antennas, 2 for friends and 1 for myself. I paid $207.55 for all 3 delivered. Since then this antenna has increased in price by 50%, add this to higher shipping rates from Europe and a weaker $ and you have a very expensive antenna. In my experiences the DAT-75 has performed no better than the Winegard's PR-9032 & HD-9095 and only marginally better than the CM's

4228 & 4248 at higher frequencies only.


----------



## mbabauer

Well, I figured out the problem. He and I both miss-read the box, and his TV does NOT have an HDTV tuner.


Is there any Antennas that have a tuner, or even a separate tuner, he could consider?


----------



## etcarroll

For a general question, the general answer is 'go to antennaweb.org'.


If you get the VHF indoors, then you should be able to get UHF, but will never know till you try.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scottyja* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have yet to build my HTPC w/ the HD tuners, and before I do, I want to ensure that I'm going to pick up the local HD channels. I thought the question I have might apply to more than just my area, so I'm not posting in my specific locale (I live in Tucson, AZ).
> 
> 
> All/most of the local VHF SD channels and the UHF HD channels are broadcast from a local mountain about 20 miles from my home. My indoor antenna is picking up the VHF channels without a problem. Is it safe to assume that if I'm getting the VHF signals indoors from that location that I'll get the UHF signals from the same location?


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mbabauer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, I figured out the problem. He and I both miss-read the box, and his TV does NOT have an HDTV tuner.
> 
> 
> Is there any Antennas that have a tuner, or even a separate tuner, he could consider?



Looks like your "cheap" friend is going to have to shell out some more bucks for a separate, standalone, over-the-air set-top digital HD tuner. (There is no such thing as an antenna with a built-in tuner. It's either built-in to the set or has to be added externally. He either has to rent one along with paid satellite/cable service or buy outright a separate tuner of his own from a manufacturer for OTA reception. Welcome to the Catch-22 world of HDTV.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *quarque* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks. I know the 4221 is good - I have one on my roof.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I'm looking for is some hard data on the DB4, preferrably side-by-side tests with 4221 or similar. One guy in our local HD reception forum says the DB4 is junk and I just don't believe it. I can see how the construction might not be as good but the performance should be nearly identical to the 4221.



I think the problem is that the DB-4 may not be as durable, doesn't perform any better, and costs twice as much. Most Terk antennas work. We bust on them because they cost 3x antennas that work better.


For the price of a DB-4, you can get the CM4228, which is at least twice as good.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mbabauer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, I figured out the problem. He and I both miss-read the box, and his TV does NOT have an HDTV tuner.
> 
> 
> Is there any Antennas that have a tuner, or even a separate tuner, he could consider?



Look here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=179095 


Especially the part labeled "Over The Air DTV/HDTV"


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scottyja* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have yet to build my HTPC w/ the HD tuners, and before I do, I want to ensure that I'm going to pick up the local HD channels. I thought the question I have might apply to more than just my area, so I'm not posting in my specific locale (I live in Tucson, AZ).
> 
> 
> All/most of the local VHF SD channels and the UHF HD channels are broadcast from a local mountain about 20 miles from my home. My indoor antenna is picking up the VHF channels without a problem. Is it safe to assume that if I'm getting the VHF signals indoors from that location that I'll get the UHF signals from the same location?



No, UHF has much higher propagation loss than VHF, may be lower in trasmitted power and suffers from much more diffraction loss, building loss (for indoor antennas) and esp. multipath effects.


First start by punching in your location at www.antennaweb.org .

You'll quickly see that Tucson has TWO very different antenna tower locations.

Most of the digital stations are on the same towers as their analog counterparts.

However, note that VHF analog CBS & UPN are on one, and their UHF Digital counterparts are on the other.


----------



## quarque




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think the problem is that the DB-4 may not be as durable, doesn't perform any better, and costs twice as much. Most Terk antennas work. We bust on them because they cost 3x antennas that work better.
> 
> 
> For the price of a DB-4, you can get the CM4228, which is at least twice as good.



The phrase "may not be as durable" is based on what? I agree it is overpriced but most AntennasDirect stuff gets high marks for quality. Does anyone have first-hand knowledge of the DB4's quality?


----------



## AntennaMaster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hdtv4prs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I recently upgraded my 25 yr. old RS 160 " vhf/uhf on a 30' tower /w rotor. I used the following:
> 
> CM 4228 UHF
> 
> Wade VIP-306 VHF
> 
> CM 7777 Titan pre-amp
> 
> CM 9521A rotor/controller
> 
> All new RG-6 coax/ rotor wiring
> 
> 
> I now get all Cleveland HD stations with no drop-offs and 92-98 Signal strength. Live about 45 miles south of Parma Farm. Below are some pics.



I like your set-up! I just purchased my Wade VIP-307SR. I did not put up the CM 4228, due to its inability to have a tight back door. Instead, went with the Winegard PR-9032. Lastly, tried both the CM 7777 and the Winegard AP2870, and had an improved picture withe the Winegard. This is because of the higher threshold in input capabilites.


On another note, in comparing the PR-9032 to the 91XG, the 91XG looks like a fraile piece of crap. The constuction of that thing is just piss poor!


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No, UHF has much higher propagation loss than VHF.....



There is no additional _propagation_ loss with increased frequency. Electromagnetic waves of all frequencies travel through free space with equal loss per unit of distance. The 20 log (Fo in MHz) term in the equation:


Free Space Loss = 36.58 dB + 20 log (Fo in MHz) + 20 log (Dtr in miles)


is really isotropic (0 dBi) antenna aperture versus frequency.


Ron


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntennaMaster* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I like your set-up! I just purchased my Wade VIP-307SR. I did not put up the CM 4228, due to its inability to have a tight back door. Instead, went with the Winegard PR-9032. Lastly, tried both the CM 7777 and the Winegard AP2870, and had an improved picture withe the Winegard. This is because of the higher threshold in input capabilites.
> 
> 
> On another note, in comparing the PR-9032 to the 91XG, the 91XG looks like a fraile piece of crap. The constuction of that thing is just piss poor!



Sounds like Winegard works for you.


I think if you'll check the specs the 4228 has comparable f/b ratio to the 9032. Directivity is probably even higher. The main drawbacks are weight, windload, and difficulty with stacking.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntennaMaster* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> On another note, in comparing the PR-9032 to the 91XG, the 91XG looks like a fraile piece of crap. The constuction of that thing is just piss poor!



Yes, yes. We hear this all the time. But mine is still holding together and I haven't heard of anyone having problems with them.


It seems that everybody looks at this thing and says, "What a piece of junk!" and toss it before giving it a chance. The 91XG will soundly outperform the 9032.


----------



## AntennaMaster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes, yes. We hear this all the time. But mine is still holding together and I haven't heard of anyone having problems with them.
> 
> 
> It seems that everybody looks at this thing and says, "What a piece of junk!" and toss it before giving it a chance. The 91XG will soundly outperform the 9032.




Actually, I teseted both antennas, under near identical conditions and the 9032 captured additional signal. Again, the 91XG is OVER RATED! I know you have one and like it, however, I am used to working with antennas all of time and do some design work with them, and the 91XG is rubbish.


Stick with the PR-9032!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntennaMaster* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Actually, I teseted both antennas, under near identical conditions and the 9032 captured additional signal.



I'm sure we'd all be interested in the documentation of your test. Things like when it was tested. Where. Under what type of weather conditions. Channels used and statistics of each, etc. What means was used to measure the signal. Stuff like that. No offense, but any test can be jury-rigged to give a desired result, and we have nothing but your say-so that you are an expert, or that you even did a test based on the little info you give above.


What's interesting is that according to computer modeling ( http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html ), the 91XG is very similar to the 9032 in net gain at channel 56 and above, but the 9032 begins to drop off below that point to a gap of almost 3dB at channel 28. The curves converge again below that point, with the advantage at channel 14 being about 1dB. Since most digital channels are not above 56 currently, and none will be above 51 come March of 2009, that type of advantage isn't saying much in favor of the 9032. The 9032 is larger, and has higher wind load. Computer modeling has its critics, but without a large amount of real-world data I tend to trust it over single-session, single-location testing.


I've always been impressed with Winegard's build quality, but remain unconvinced that the 9032 is a superior deep-fringe antenna. For anyone inside of 60 miles under typical terrain, I think either would work just fine. Beyond Grade B contours without line-of-sight, I give the nod to the 91XG.


----------



## pat_h20

In all fairness sregener, his name is AntennaMaster, so he knows more than everyone else by default.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntennaMaster* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...I am used to working with antennas all of time and do some design work with them, and the 91XG is rubbish.



I'm sure we'll hit my maximum bandwidth per hour limit on Geocities with everybody checking out this page, but I took some 6MP pictures using a 450mm zoom of my antenna this morning. You can inspect the images (over 1MB each, so dial-up users beware!) for any signs of wear. I couldn't see any at 400%.

http://www.geocities.com/figbert/91xgwear.html 


Edit: Here's a full-rez crop, and a low-rez picture of the image without cropping. Make sure to look at the low-rez version at full (not scaled) resolution, as my browser shows the scaled image with very noticable warp of the screen due to problems with a low-rez image and slanted lines.)


----------



## Jesse31

I am using a 91 XG at 57 feet...I have no tests of other UHF antennas to compare it to but I can receive analog UHF at 81 miles with perfect signal quality 100% of the time...there are a couple at around 100 miles that are clear but slightly snowy. I know it outperforms anything I have ever used or seen used. I wish I had a 9032 to do my own test. As you said sregener, people are saying they are crap without any data to back up their claim...I believe it is because the 91XG is radically different from what they are used to and they refuse to accept change.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jesse31* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...people are saying they are crap without any data to back up their claim...I believe it is because the 91XG is radically different from what they are used to and they refuse to accept change.



Actually, the 91XG looks identical to the Funke 4591. It may even *be* a rebranded Funke 4591. I don't hear anyone complaining about the durability of those.


My first impression of the 91XG was similar to those who say it isn't durable; I wondered if it would last. So far it has, in what I think is a rather hostile environment. Maybe it really is falling apart, but it just isn't visible from ground level. Maybe I've been lucky. Maybe it will break tomorrow. Who knows?


If I read about people swapping their 9032s for 91XGs and getting worse performance, or heard of people swapping out their 91XGs for 9032s and getting better results, I'd be tempted to try it myself. But I haven't heard or read much like that (other than AntennaMaster's claim of better performance from the 9032) so I'm inclined to leave my antenna up there for now.


The DXers love the Funke 4591. They spend the dollars to get every ounce of performance they can. There aren't many stacking 9032s.


----------



## Nitewatchman

Think I've posted this a few times here. Think the XG91 and all of it's other names across the world(funke is but one, there's also one that looks the same from australia with a "jaycar" brand name, and one from another european country with a "dipol" brand name) probably all come from the company at below link --- I think The driven element may differ between different antenna models/"brands"/etc ... (note - just choose "cancel" when it says you need chinese language support - you don't, it's in english) :

http://www.ceda-antenna.com/index.htm 


Details on their so called "91 element" antenna(or whatever you want to call it) - along with very detailed pictures of it are here :

http://www.ceda-antenna.com/91EL.htm 


Update: Oh yes. Note that the box my XG91 from antennasdirect came in said such things as 91EL and "Made in China" on it .... I'm certianly happy with it, regardless, and don't think it is likely to fall apart any time soon ...


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Actually, the 91XG looks identical to the Funke 4591. It may even *be* a rebranded Funke 4591. I don't hear anyone complaining about the durability of those.
> 
> The DXers love the Funke 4591. They spend the dollars to get every ounce of performance they can. There aren't many stacking 9032s.



The XG91 is identical except for the pickup element.The Funke was the original.A Dxer in Cape Cod has used one for several years.I'll get in touch with him and see how long he's had it in the air,and how it's holding up.The only deterioration I've seen is the gold anodizing on the director elements has faded away.Big deal.


I just got rid of a couple of 9032's.A good durable well-built antenna,but inferior bandwidth compared to the Quad-X design.As a Dxer,good performance on every channel is a must.


The Quad-X is rated for 80mph wind(1-1/2 sq.ft/35 lb lateral load).Good enough for me.


I've had this latest stack arrangement in the air since Feb 4th and it's a real "scatter-gitter".Been picking up Fox 53 from Pittsburgh(>300mi) on a daily basis under dead-band conditions.

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...TowerAntennas/


----------



## AntennaMaster

So, how did you find the performace of the 91XG against the 9032's? We will not judge it on the appearance, just performance! My findings, still working on the charts, shows the 9032 to perform significantly better above Channel 35. I have the images from the scope that I will post.


I know the 9032 inside and out! It is a performer.


Srenger, you may want to just try the 9032 on your set-up. You may be surprised. Heck, I will send you a free one if you want one. Maybe, then you may understand.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntennaMaster* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So, how did you find the performace of the 91XG against the 9032's? We will not judge it on the appearance, just performance! My findings, still working on the charts, shows the 9032 to perform significantly better above Channel 35. I have the images from the scope that I will post.
> 
> 
> I know the 9032 inside and out! It is a performer.
> 
> 
> Srenger, you may want to just try the 9032 on your set-up. You may be surprised. Heck, I will send you a free one if you want one. Maybe, then you may understand.




I have two 9032's that I played around with for awhile. Singly, it was inferior pretty much up and down the band to both the 4228 and the DAT 75. Comparing a 9032 stack to a DAT 75 stack the DAT also won handily. It is also a little flimsy at the boom section and requires propping it up so it won't sag in the front. Winegard is widely known for exaggerating their antenna specs and I think the 9032 is a prime example. It's a decent antenna for the money though as it can be had for around 35 bucks. Here's a pic of my 9032 stack:


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntennaMaster* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Srenger, you may want to just try the 9032 on your set-up. You may be surprised. Heck, I will send you a free one if you want one. Maybe, then you may understand.



Based on real-world testing done by others here, my conclusion remains the same: the 9032 is an upper-tier performer that doesn't quite reach the elite status of other models. It's not worth the $60 I'd have to pay to have the antenna put up on my tower (I don't do heights) and then $60 more to replace the inferior 9032 with my original antenna.


But the fact that you're willing to give one to me suggests that you have ulterior motives that have nothing to do with believing the 9032 is the best antenna out there. I suspect you either sell them or work for someone who does. Your tests will be interesting, but without verification that you "did everything honestly" they're going to have to be taken with a grain of salt. You also haven't given any indication of whether your tests are for near-fringe, fringe or deep-fringe. It is in the latter that I think the 91XG really shows its stuff.


----------



## KeithAR2002

Hello, I'm new here, and I was just curious to get some of your opinions on the Radio Shack VU-190 XR. I just bought it, and was checking to see some opinions. Thanks!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KeithAR2002* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello, I'm new here, and I was just curious to get some of your opinions on the Radio Shack VU-190 XR. I just bought it, and was checking to see some opinions. Thanks!



The knock on the 190XR is durability - the Radio Shack VHF elements don't hold up well to weather (and in some cases, large birds) and will break off in a few years. The UHF section is about average - nothing special, but not the worst by far. If you need VHF, you could do far worse than the 190XR, especially if you got it at one of their half price sales. The 190XR is a tried-and-true design and will perform great as long as it takes to rust or break.


----------



## greywolf

A pigeon took out an element on my VU-160XR last month. I know it was a pigeon from the gray and white fluff stuck to the end.


----------



## cpcat

Wow, Greywolf, you've had an extreme makeover!










Sorry if this is old news, but I haven't been here in a while.


----------



## greywolf

I've been playing with Avatars. The picture with the beard is 25 years old.


----------



## AntAltMike

What phase was the moon in when it was taken?

_"Warewolf!"


"Warewolf?"


"Where wolf? There! There wolf. There castle."


"Igor, why are you talking like that?"


"I thought you want to talk like that."


"I don't want to talk like that."


"Suit yourself, I'm easy"_


----------



## KeithAR2002

I thought about getting the CM 3671...but already purchased the 190...by the time I found out about it. Oh well, thanks for the info!


----------



## grizzfan

I'm trying to sort out which kind of antenna to buy. I'll need both VHF/UHF capability and stations are at 344 degrees and 102 degrees, 13 & 3 miles away respectively. I was hoping that a stationary antenna like the two on ebay might work. One is a Terk HDTV-S outdoor and the other is a Wineguard SS-1000. You can see them if you type in ebay's search "HDTV Antenna".


Both station sites are on unobstructed mountain tops.


TV is still in the box and I will start out with some rabbit ears and work up. Please don't make it too technical for me!


Thanks,


Tom


----------



## Neil L

girzzfan,

My guess is that the rabbit ears will work well enough that you won't want to change.


----------



## grizzfan

I'll give the ole rabbit ears a try! Thanks


Tom


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *grizzfan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> TV is still in the box and I will start out with some rabbit ears and work up. Please don't make it too technical for me!



Unamplified is the key. Don't get anything that you have to plug into a power outlet.


I'd suspect that for VHF at least, that's going to work. For UHF, if you need to, you may want to try a double-bowtie design like the one at Radio Shack, or the AntennasDirect DB2. Even the single bowtie that Radio Shack sells for about $5 would probably work for you.


----------



## pyedog




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Take a ChannelMaster 4221 4-bay antenna. Or, a 4228 8-bay antenna. Now, go to Lowe's, get $4 worth of aluminum window screening.
> 
> Cut to two 4' strips, and then make holes every 6 inches or so.
> 
> Tie wrap the mesh screen behind the 4221 or 4228. Instant front-to-back rejection of several dB added on, and better receive gain as well. NOTE: do NOT try this on a 4228 mounted outside. The wind load would be killer, and the screen may just rip off anyway.



No effect at all whatsoever for my location - zip 27587 - NBC 17 is kind of marginal although I have everything else coming in pretty well.


Anyone actually see an improvement doing this?


Thanks,

-Jim


----------



## grizzfan




> Quote:
> I'll give the ole rabbit ears a try! Thanks



Thanks Neil & srengener. This will be a big weekend trial & error for me and I'm pretty fussy about PQ even on my SD stuff.


Now, just in case I might have to go to an outdoor VHF/UHF antenna on the roof, I've been contemplating cable management, grounding and such.


Can I string the coax and bare copper ground wire down the gutter down spouts? (they are aluminum or very light steel). That would be fortunate if I could as the entry point for the coax into the house is very close to one down spout. And it solves the problem of looping the coax etc over the gutters which would look messy.


Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.


Tom


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *grizzfan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1) This will be a big weekend trial & error for me and I'm pretty fussy about PQ even on my SD stuff.
> 
> 
> 2) Can I string the coax and bare copper ground wire down the gutter down spouts? (they are aluminum or very light steel).



1) As you no doubt know, with digital, either the picture quality is perfect or its very bad. Once you have a glitch-free image, you're done. Maxing out the signal quality meter beyond that point gains you nothing.


2) Coax, yes. Bare copper? I doubt it, as the contact with the conductive material of the down spout would interfere. But greywolf is the expert on grounding, so maybe he'll chime in.


----------



## greywolf

The only thing that comes to mind is a conduit situation. When a bare grounding wire is run through metallic conduit, it is supposed to be connected to the conduit at both the entry and exit points. The best idea is to check with your local building department. Codes can vary from region to region. I actually like the idea of grounding the gutter system though. I hadn't really thought about it before but an ungrounded gutter system can be somewhat of a lightning attractor at least in theory.


AntAltMike is the expert. I just post what I've learned and wait to see if he corrects me.


----------



## Rammitinski

Seems Greywolf has finally discovered that ever elusive Fountain of Youth. Does this mean we will soon be seeing him in his own infomercial?


----------



## richard korsgren

I bought 2 dat75Televes UHF antennas (from England) some years ago and it has proved to be a wonderful antenna. And it is built very well and looks as good as the day I put it up. It is highly directional. It picks up HD stations from 3 markets, the furthest one about 50 miles..98% perfect all the way. I paid around $160 for 2 delivered. I consider it a bargain at $80. each. It is one of those rare products you buy and forget except when you glance at the roof and notice how nice the antenna looks up there.


----------



## wbrack




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *grizzfan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks Neil & srengener. This will be a big weekend trial & error for me and I'm pretty fussy about PQ even on my SD stuff.
> 
> 
> Now, just in case I might have to go to an outdoor VHF/UHF antenna on the roof, I've been contemplating cable management, grounding and such.
> 
> 
> Can I string the coax and bare copper ground wire down the gutter down spouts? (they are aluminum or very light steel). That would be fortunate if I could as the entry point for the coax into the house is very close to one down spout. And it solves the problem of looping the coax etc over the gutters which would look messy.
> 
> 
> Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
> 
> 
> Tom



I think running bare copper down an aluminium or steel down spout

is likely to result in a severe corrosion problem. You have got two dissimilar metals

in a wet environment = battery= electrolysis. I don't think I would want to take a

chance on doing that.


wb


----------



## grizzfan

*Neil Lafoon posted:*



> Quote:
> girzzfan,
> 
> My guess is that the rabbit ears will work well enough that you won't want to change.



Thanks for all the help and assistance here about antennas, rabbit ears, grounding and the like. You can't know how much I appreciate your comments.


But here is ground truth: Neil is right!! Rabbit ears in my location is absolutely stunning and perfect. Amazing how 1950s antenna technology works!! Watched the George Mason - Florida game and we were jaw-agape stunned by the picture. Noticed a little picture wiggle on NBC and ABC, but couldn't be happier with the PQ on CBS. Maybe a little adjustment of the rabbit ears is in order.


Tom


----------



## ST RICH

What would be your preference a CM 4228 or a CM 4221 with a Radio Shack in line amplier (10 dB)?


I purchased a CM4221, which allows me to pick up everything locally and two stations (50 miles away). Sometimes (but not theat often) I can pick up a station (70 miles away) and a station (90 miles away). Decided to add an inline amplier yesterday (picking up both these stations better, but still have drop out every 10 minutes or so.


I can purchase a CM 4228 for $50, but will not be able to return it. Before spending the money, I wanted to get some advice from others. What is my best option?


----------



## intrac

My preference is the CM4228 -- without the amp.


You can always add an amp if needed, and in most cases it is not.


An amp is useful only if you have a long cable run.


It will not pick up stations that aren't there.


An amp amplifies everything -- signal and noise, and an amp can even kill a signal when you think you should be getting it.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ST RICH* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Decided to add an inline amplier yesterday (picking up both these stations better, but still have drop out every 10 minutes or so.
> 
> 
> I can purchase a CM 4228 for $50, but will not be able to return it. Before spending the money, I wanted to get some advice from others. What is my best option?



My personal advice is to get a preamp before upgrading your antenna in this situation. However, nothing may solve your occasional dropouts for stations beyond the radio horizon. In fact, if you're only getting dropouts every 10 minutes or so, you're doing very, very well.


Good preamps are made by Winegard and Channel Master. They come in two parts. One goes near the antenna, and the other goes near the receiver. The benefit is that you amplify the signal before all of the line loss. You don't need to run any additional cable because the indoor unit sends the power up the coaxial line that you already use. (Note: This will cause problems if you're using a diplexer.)


If your local stations are 15+ miles away, just about any preamp from Winegard should be okay, and if you're 25+ miles away, any of the Channel Masters should be okay. If your stations are closer, you may want to use the Winegard HDP-269 which is especially designed *not* to overload when there are strong signals nearby.


Generally speaking, inline amplifiers are really bad, and the fact that things are any better for you is somewhat surprising.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ST RICH* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What would be your preference a CM 4228 or a CM 4221 with a Radio Shack in line amplier (10 dB)?



The Radio Shack inline 10dB amp is nearly useless for your application. It has a noise figure of I think 4 or 5dB, and a maximum output of not much more than 30dBmV, meaning it will get overloaded by the stronger local broadcasts.


I sometimes use that product to boost the "return" signal strength in hotel pay-per-view movie systems, but there just aren't very many other useful applications for it as an antenna preamplifier.


Update: I have just seen a current production unit of this product and it now says it works from 50Mz to 2,000Mz, whereas it used to say 5-1000Mz, so I won't be using any new ones to amplify return signals, but otherwise, it looks like the same piece of junk as the earlier version.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ST RICH* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What would be your preference a CM 4228 or a CM 4221 with a Radio Shack in line amplier (10 dB)?
> 
> 
> I purchased a CM4221, which allows me to pick up everything locally and two stations (50 miles away). Sometimes (but not theat often) I can pick up a station (70 miles away) and a station (90 miles away). Decided to add an inline amplier yesterday (picking up both these stations better, but still have drop out every 10 minutes or so.
> 
> 
> I can purchase a CM 4228 for $50, but will not be able to return it. Before spending the money, I wanted to get some advice from others. What is my best option?



Given the choice between adding amplification and getting a bigger, better antenna I can't imagine a situation in which I'd choose amplification.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Given the choice between adding amplification and getting a bigger, better antenna I can't imagine a situation in which I'd choose amplification.



Well, if directionality is an issue (i.e. he needs a wide acceptance angle) a bigger antenna will be more directional and might require the addition of a rotor, while the smaller one with a preamp will still have the wide acceptance angle. The other thing is that preamps can be returned - antennas usually can't.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, if directionality is an issue (i.e. he needs a wide acceptance angle) a bigger antenna will be more directional and might require the addition of a rotor, while the smaller one with a preamp will still have the wide acceptance angle. The other thing is that preamps can be returned - antennas usually can't.



Good point, I should know better to talk in such absolutes.










Maybe I've been away too long.


----------



## velvet396

You guys know waaay more than I do. So consider me a complete antenna newb and help me out...


My Sony 42a10 will be here on April 11th, so I won't know how well it picks up OTA HD until then. We have basic cable so I'm only concerned with getting whatever digital/HD stations I can over the air. Plugging into antennaweb.org, my address is close to 140 derby downs, newark, OH, 43055. (please don't stalk me, I'm not worth it.) Other nearby addresses show the digital versions of CBS/ABC etc coming in fine. As for what I get, the distances range from 10 miles to the local religious channel (which has Cavs games sometimes) to 26 miles for one NBC affiliate and PBS, to 34 miles for the main ABC/CBS/NBCout of Columbus. ABC/CBS/NBS all seem to be coming in from the same direction (260 deg). That's my reception situation according to that website (although it claims that it is conservative).


My friend has recommended that I stick with a $35 antenna and to put it in my attic. However he didn't tell me what kind, make/model, or anything. The closest I'm getting to the attic is the crawlspace behind my closet, and this heads away from the direction I'd like to point. My window points in the exact direction I'd like to receive from (260 deg).


Can anyone recommend (with a link) a make/model indoor antenna for around $35 or less? Preferably less. I'd like to start with a cheapie and see what I get, but like I said in the beginning, I don't know half of what I'm talking about when it comes to this stuff, I'm fairly proficient in most other tech stuff though.
This? 
Or maybe this?? 
Or lastly maybe this cheapest?


----------



## newsposter

any idea why all of a sudden turning on an fm trap on a leviton amp would make a more stable signal? I've been running a few months with it off (125ft run) but just flipped it last night for the fun of it and it's more stable now


i was troubleshooting an HDtivo problem with one tuner out completely and was disconnecting everything in my system to see if there was corrosion and everything was perfect...but decided to hit the trap and voila, wife yelled that there was a more stable signal. weird...was it the leaves on the tree? (200 ft away)


----------



## Solfan

I'd try a Channel Master 4221 [or 3021, same model]. It's a good all-round UHF antenna, about $30 including shipping.


I would avoid Terk. The RS models might work well in strong signals areas.


This silly-looking RS model 15-624 [$15] has gotten good reports from other users:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 


I believe this model was discontinued, glad to see it's back.


----------



## Solfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> any idea why all of a sudden turning on an fm trap on a leviton amp would make a more stable signal? I've been running a few months with it off (125ft run) but just flipped it last night for the fun of it and it's more stable now.



FM stuff sits between VHF channels 6 and 7, so if any of your HDTV channels are near those, it guess it could make a difference.

Most HD channels are in the UHF range, though.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> any idea why all of a sudden turning on an fm trap on a leviton amp would make a more stable signal? I've been running a few months with it off (125ft run) but just flipped it last night for the fun of it and it's more stable now
> 
> 
> i was troubleshooting an HDtivo problem with one tuner out completely and was disconnecting everything in my system to see if there was corrosion and everything was perfect...but decided to hit the trap and voila, wife yelled that there was a more stable signal. weird...was it the leaves on the tree? (200 ft away)



A strong FM station(s) was overloading your amp or receiver front-end.


Ron


----------



## newsposter

i should have noted my uhf is 26 32 42 54 64 67..sorry...plus i'm sitting here waiting for the neighbors tree to fill in...the antenna installer did warn me about it but there was literally only one place on the roof to get in all these channels reliably ....in winter at least










please cross you fingers and pray for me...if leaves hinder me, i'll .......chainsaw?


----------



## Solfan

The full, healthy oak trees surrounding our property have never been an issue, even on windy summer days, FWIW.


[15 miles from NYC, CM4221/3021 on the roof, installed in 4/2000]


----------



## velvet396




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Solfan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'd try a Channel Master 4221 [or 3021, same model]. It's a good all-round UHF antenna, about $30 including shipping.
> 
> 
> I would avoid Terk. The RS models might work well in strong signals areas.
> 
> 
> This silly-looking RS model 15-624 [$15] has gotten good reports from other users:
> 
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search
> 
> 
> I believe this model was discontinued, glad to see it's back.



I'll check them out, and report back once it's time. Thank you!


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Solfan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The full, healthy oak trees surrounding our property have never been an issue, even on windy summer days, FWIW.
> 
> 
> [15 miles from NYC, CM4221/3021 on the roof, installed in 4/2000]



is your antenna pointed right at /thru the treest


interesting observation. So then by his trees being well over 200 ft away then that means even in full bloom i wont have problem right?


----------



## Solfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> is your antenna pointed right at /thru the treest
> 
> 
> interesting observation. So then by his trees being well over 200 ft away then that means even in full bloom i wont have problem right?



Yes, it's aimed directly at the trees [there's no choice, really...] and they're about 75' away.


I've been recording many, many programs over the years on the HD DirecTivo and the PC card recorders and they've been remarkably glitch-free. RF stuff can be weird and sometimes unpredictable, so YMMV.


----------



## Dan Kolton

I'm within 5 miles of most transmitters, and have decent reception using a Silver Sensor indoors during the winter. When the trees (many within 50 feet) leaf out, you can pretty much forget HD, especially when it's windy. Moving the antenna to the attic, and even outside (but not on the roof) doesn't help! I'm very reluctant to try going in the attic, or even on the roof with a 4221, given my experience with the Silver Sensor.


----------



## newsposter

solfan well you are luckier than me....i'm watching something from a weaker channel i recorded last night and the dropouts are killing me.....it could be the hdtivo...just no way to tell


----------



## velvet396

*"HD and digital broadcasts are not in the UHF or VHF band, they are ATSC, and your television being an A10 has the built in ATSC tuner."*


A friend told me this. Is he correct? (about the UHF/VHF/ATSC. I know my a10 has an ATSC tuner) I thought the digital signal was passed along the UHF, and in rare cases along the VHF bad. Can someone clear this up so I can show him how much smarter I am?


----------



## FREEHDTV4ME

Hi, I live in The Bronx, NY 10462 and was wondering if anybody was having trouble picking up the following stations:


WNYE-DT 25.1

WNJU-DT 36

WFUT-DT 68.1

WLIW-DT 21.2 (This is out of Long Island)


I'm able to pickup all other stations in my area except those mention above. See the list below.


2-1 WCBS-HD

4-1 WNBC-HD

4-2 WX-PLUS

4-4 WNBC 4.4

5-1 WNYW-DT

5-2 WWOR DT

7-1 WABC-HD

7-2 WABC+

7-3 WABC NOW

9-1 WWOR DT

9-2 WNYW DT

11-1 WB11 ENGLISH

11-2 WB11 SPANISH

13-1 WNET-HD

13-2 WNET-SD

13-3 WNET-13

31-1 i

31-2 PAX

31-3 WORSHIP

31-4 FAITHTV

41-1 WXTV-DT

68-1 WFUT DT (Programming schedule only - NO AUDIO OR VIDEO)


----------



## FREEHDTV4ME

On a followup question, I wanted to combine Two UHF and One VHF antennas. I was told that the two UHF antennas might cxl eachother out. Any suggestions.


P.S. I will be installing a new 42XG antenna on my roof.


----------



## greywolf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *velvet396* /forum/post/0
> 
> *"HD and digital broadcasts are not in the UHF or VHF band, they are ATSC, and your television being an A10 has the built in ATSC tuner."*
> 
> 
> A friend told me this. Is he correct? (about the UHF/VHF/ATSC. I know my a10 has an ATSC tuner) I thought the digital signal was passed along the UHF, and in rare cases along the VHF bad. Can someone clear this up so I can show him how much smarter I am?



You are correct. Your friend is incorrect.


----------



## newsposter

wow even i knew that one....we only have 2 choices..uhf and vhf...if he was old enough he'd remember tvs with the dial on the bottom that had the notations


----------



## Hoopnoop




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *intrac* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My preference is the CM4228 -- without the amp.
> 
> 
> You can always add an amp if needed, and in most cases it is not.
> 
> 
> An amp is useful only if you have a long cable run.
> 
> 
> It will not pick up stations that aren't there.
> 
> 
> An amp amplifies everything -- signal and noise, and an amp can even kill a signal when you think you should be getting it.



Is this true or a matter of debate? So, if you have a short cable run, a pre-amp will not give you a better ability to get more distant stations? I had been told that a pre-amp can increase your ability to get distant stations.


----------



## Jesse31

I have tried a wingard preamp (17 db VHF/28 db UHF) when using a 20' run of RG6...there was a dramatic improvement...stations that were very weak became clear.


----------



## goldrich

In over 35 years of experimenting with TV reception, I don't remember a time when a preamp didn't help a weak signal. Now if you are near some very strong signals, a preamp can cause problems by overloading the receiver.


About two years ago a radio/antenna design engineer wrote a very positive review of the Motorola TV Signal Booster. I found one on Ebay and gave it a try. It really does work very well, even on small indoor antennas. I now know several who are using this unit with very little overload, even in strong signal areas. It even works almost as well as a Winegard or CM preamp with the 91XG antenna on weak signals (analog and digital). I use another Motorola Signal Booster with a high-band VHF antenna to pull in a DTV on ch. 11 @ 40 miles which is sometimes too weak to lock in without the booster.


Steve


----------



## intrac

Correct -- if you have stronger locals, they may swamp out your weaker signals when you use a pre-amp -- they get amplified too.


The amp can't distinguish which signals you need and amplifies everything -- weak, strong, noise, multi-path, etc., and the net result is stations you expect all of sudden don't come in.


If all you have are weak signals in your area, amp may help.


----------



## Jesse31

Has anyone tried these preamps?
http://www.gme.net.au/matv/mhw_series.php 

34 db UHF gain with NF of


----------



## AntennaMaster

Gents,


Can you give me some feedback on your opinion with RG6Quad Cable? The antenna installer, usually only has the average RG6 on his truck.


With adding some new antennas, I was wondering if I should replace the existing cable. It is about 6 years old.


Here are some questions:


1) Using F660BVV, would it warrant to pay the extra money to get the DigiCon Cable with the connectors already attached?

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...&PROD=DGCBL100 


The purpose of getting this, is the advantage of having the connnectors alreayd applied. I realize that this is adding additional cost, however, most of the local antenna installers have issues with putting on "quality" connectors.


2) Or should I just stick with the standard F660BV?


Thanks for your support!

 

COM5730.pdf 134.9072265625k . file


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntennaMaster* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can you give me some feedback on your opinion with RG6Quad Cable? The antenna installer, usually only has the average RG6 on his truck.



Feedback on this subject will not teach you anything useful. Quad shield does what it is purported to and doesn't do what it isn't purported to. Any feedback that tells you otherwise will only be useful for confirming one's prejudices.


It has nearly the same dB loss per unit length as dual shield. Its "improved" shielding is irrelevant in about 99.999% of all reception situations. It MIGHT make a difference to someone whose house is in the shadow of a full-powered transmitting tower, but I have a few customers in such situations and they have no trouble with dual shield.


Quad shield is favored by the cable companies because they are responsible for controlling the "cumulative leakage" of their signals on certain frequencies that are shared by other services, They are concerned that the total signal egress of their entire system will exceed a certain level as measured in "flyover" surveys and are willing to pay an extra penny per foot to incrementally reduce it a tiny bit. Since broadcast TV signals aren't at those frequencies, then their low level egress leakage is not a problem that the FCC cares about.


The other reason cable companies favor quad shield, in addition to the slight theoretical improvement in shielding factor, is that with four layers of shielding, the cable shielding is less likely to fail due to exterior physical trauma.




> Quote:
> ... most of the local antenna installers have issues with putting on "quality" connectors.



I haven't seen any professional installer (other than me) use crimp connectors in the last couple of years, and I have no basis for believing that any compression connector is any better than any other, except that some do not have an internal "O" ring on the base mating surface of their 3/8" nut and therefore are not suitable for outdoor use unless they are somehow weatherized, like with coax seal, "Stuff", or weather boots)


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Feedback on this subject will not teach you anything useful. Quad shield does what it is purported to and doesn't do what it isn't purported to. Any feedback that tells you otherwise will only be useful for confirming one's prejudices.
> 
> 
> It has nearly the same dB loss per unit length as dual shield. Its "improved" shielding is irrelevant in about 99.999% of all reception situations. It MIGHT make a difference to someone whose house is in the shadow of a full-powered transmitting tower, but I have a few customers in such situations and they have no trouble with dual shield.
> 
> 
> Quad shield is favored by the cable companies because they are responsible for controlling the "cumulative leakage" of their signals on certain frequencies that are shared by other services, They are concerned that the total signal egress of their entire system will exceed a certain level as measured in "flyover" surveys and are willing to pay an extra penny per foot to incrementally reduce it a tiny bit. Since broadcast TV signals aren't at those frequencies, then their low level egress leakage is not a problem that the FCC cares about.
> 
> 
> The other reason cable companies favor quad shield, in addition to the slight theoretical improvement in shielding factor, is that with four layers of shielding, the cable shielding is less likely to fail due to exterior physical trauma.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't seen any professional installer (other than me) use crimp connectors in the last couple of years, and I have no basis for believing that any compression connector is any better than any other, except that some do not have an internal "O" ring on the base mating surface of their 3/8" nut and therefore are not suitable for outdoor use unless they are somehow weatherized, like with coax seal, "Stuff", or weather boots)




I agree on the use of quad shield,not necessary,and crimp connectors are a real PITA to install on most brands of coax.Have to nip off all the shielding and push like hell with a 7/16 socket to get the fittings down far enough.


Your last paragraph brings up a good point.I've seen these so-called weatherproof compression fittings on pre-made cables under the Zenith brand name.No O-ring,and I can't believe water won't find its way around those threads.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *velvet396* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You guys know waaay more than I do. So consider me a complete antenna newb and help me out...
> 
> 
> My Sony 42a10 will be here on April 11th, so I won't know how well it picks up OTA HD until then. We have basic cable so I'm only concerned with getting whatever digital/HD stations I can over the air. Plugging into antennaweb.org, my address is close to 140 derby downs, newark, OH, 43055. (please don't stalk me, I'm not worth it.) Other nearby addresses show the digital versions of CBS/ABC etc coming in fine. As for what I get, the distances range from 10 miles to the local religious channel (which has Cavs games sometimes) to 26 miles for one NBC affiliate and PBS, to 34 miles for the main ABC/CBS/NBCout of Columbus. ABC/CBS/NBS all seem to be coming in from the same direction (260 deg). That's my reception situation according to that website (although it claims that it is conservative).
> 
> 
> My friend has recommended that I stick with a $35 antenna and to put it in my attic. However he didn't tell me what kind, make/model, or anything. The closest I'm getting to the attic is the crawlspace behind my closet, and this heads away from the direction I'd like to point. My window points in the exact direction I'd like to receive from (260 deg).
> 
> 
> Can anyone recommend (with a link) a make/model indoor antenna for around $35 or less? Preferably less. I'd like to start with a cheapie and see what I get, but like I said in the beginning, I don't know half of what I'm talking about when it comes to this stuff, I'm fairly proficient in most other tech stuff though.
> This?
> Or maybe this??
> Or lastly maybe this cheapest?



None of those antennas are going to reliably receive Columbus, and you will probably find the CM-4221/3021 to be inadequate indoors at 34 miles away.


Antennaweb only shows you being able to reliably receive two nearly DTV stations: i-PAX (10 mi, 181 deg) and PBS (26 mi, 286 deg)....that's with an outdoor antenna on a pole.


It appears that you need an antenna with a significant amount of gain in order to work towards receiving the Columbus DTV group 34 miles away (260 degrees).

The other NBC affiliate you mention (26 mi, 122 deg) would be in the sidelobe of any antenna pointed towards Columbus, and would be very difficult to receive.

With the W31AA PBS station (1 mi, 113 deg) being nearly in your backyard, avoid using any amplified antennas, preampliers or distribution amplifiers.

They WILL be overloaded--indeed your HDTV may also be overloaded although loss in the downlead and RF Splitters will reduce the amount of overload.


For your attic mounted situation, and since a preamp can not be used, I would recommend the higher gain CM-4228 8-Bay antenna.

It also has a deep sidelobe null that can significantly reduce the signal level coming from W31AA PBS.


Uniquely, the CM-4228 also provides significant gain in the VHF band, which is needed to receive the digital ABC station on CH13.

And a couple years from now will be needed when other stations move their digital stations to the original analog allocations.


If you find that reception reliability still isn't as good as you'ld like, consider moving the antenna to an outdoor location, either against the eves or on a pole.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Antennaweb only shows you being able to reliably receive two nearly DTV stations: i-PAX (10 mi, 181 deg) and PBS (26 mi, 286 deg)....that's with an outdoor antenna on a pole.



Antennaweb's digital predictions are a little conservative. Okay, maybe a lot. For my address, they predict I'll only get one, and I got three just fine (i.e. perfect) from my rooftop before I moved things up a tower to get much more distant stations.


Generally speaking, if Antennaweb predicts you'll get analog UHF signals from an area, you'll get the digitals whether Antennaweb lists them or not.


That said, most of his digitals are listed as blue or violet, so he'll need a minimum of an outdoor antenna, installed outdoors, like the CM3021. The 4228 would be better.


----------



## smaerd58

I am looking for a good Attic antenna to pick up only Digital HDTV channells out of Philadelphia. I live at 19977 and I have The Dish 811 Reciever with Hitachi 50/v500 Rptv. The run of cable would be around 50 ft. of rg6. Is there any tpe of antennas anyone can recammend? I mainly watch the locals but Dish doesn't have them in HD yet and the HD package isn't worth it without them. Thanks


----------



## etcarroll

Did you even attempt antennaweb.org mentioned in previous post?


Anyway, in an attic, 60 miles away, you got problems. Throw a Channelmaster 4228 on the roof, and if you add a rotor, maybe get Baltimore as well.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smaerd58* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am looking for a good Attic antenna to pick up only Digital HDTV channells out of Philadelphia. I live at 19904 and I have The Dish 811 Reciever with Hitachi 50/v500 Rptv. The run of cable would be around 50 ft. of rg6. Is there any tpe of antennas anyone can recammend? I mainly watch the locals but Dish doesn't have them in HD yet and the HD package isn't worth it without them. Thanks


----------



## smaerd58

Yes, I tried antennaweb. I can't have a antenna on the roof here its against our association and it would look unsightly.


----------



## TV Trey

Your home owners association cannot stop you http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/hdrec.../fccrules.html but perhaps unsightly can.


----------



## smaerd58

Yes, I know that,but out of 450 homes I would be the only one with a huge antenna sticking up.Would be like moths to a flame in my community. I am still searching for something I can put up in my attic it isn't used for anything else.Plenty of room.Thanks


----------



## kycubsfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smaerd58* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes, I know that,but out of 450 homes I would be the only one with a huge antenna sticking up.Would be like moths to a flame in my community. I am still searching for something I can put up in my attic it isn't used for anything else.Plenty of room.Thanks



Who cares? It's your home. Do what you like and let the community pests fume their lives away.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smaerd58* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> red - uhf WEVD-LP 27 ABC DOVER DE 81° 4.2 27
> 
> blue - uhf W14CM 14 TBN DOVER DE 81° 4.2 14



These two present the problem - you won't be able to use most preamplifiers, and for weak distant signals, a preamp is a big help.


I'd try a Channel Master 4228 (8-bay bowtie.) You might try a Winegard HDP-269 preamp, which is designed not to overload, but it may not help and might make things worse. You wouldn't know for sure until you tried.


However, with the install in your attic, count on reception problems when you can least afford them.


The 4228 isn't that large - it's 4'x4'. It's also a top performer. As others have said, your HOA can take their illegal rule and forget it. The case studies at the bottom of this page ( http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html ) should help if you're not feeling brave.


The 811 is a terrible receiver for your situation, though. You need a strong OTA box like the LG, Zenith, or some of the newer models from other major manufacturers. The 811 will fail with good signals, and it's highly unlikely that yours will even be adequate.


----------



## karhill




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *goldrich* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In over 35 years of experimenting with TV reception, I don't remember a time when a preamp didn't help a weak signal. Now if you are near some very strong signals, a preamp can cause problems by overloading the receiver.
> 
> 
> About two years ago a radio/antenna design engineer wrote a very positive review of the Motorola TV Signal Booster. I found one on Ebay and gave it a try. It really does work very well, even on small indoor antennas. I now know several who are using this unit with very little overload, even in strong signal areas. It even works almost as well as a Winegard or CM preamp with the 91XG antenna on weak signals (analog and digital). I use another Motorola Signal Booster with a high-band VHF antenna to pull in a DTV on ch. 11 @ 40 miles which is sometimes too weak to lock in without the booster.



I'm hoping someone with more antenna/RF signal knowledge can shed some light. I've got a situation where a Channel Master 7777 preamp (supposedly a very good preamp) completely kills my reception. Should I be seeing this?


I've got a roof mounted Channel Master 4221 4 bay bow-tie antenna. I receive a number of stations just fine, but a few are too weak to get DTV reception. The antenna is connected to my tuner with about 30 feet of RG-6: as part of this connection there is a mask-mounted 7777 preamp in the line. If I don't supply any power to the 7777, I get decent reception on most channels. If I plug in the power-module for the 7777 my signal reception will drop to 0% on all channels. The power module is connected correctly (tv side to the tv about 4 feet of RG-6 away, power side to the preamp up on the mask, about 30 feet of RG-6 away).


Thinking that I might be amping the signal too much, I put an attenuator in the line (between the TV and the 7777 power module). This did not change anything (but the attenuator appeared to be working as expected when the 7777 power module was not plugged in).


So is there something wrong? Should the CM 7777 help my signal or totally destroy it?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *karhill* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I receive a number of stations just fine, but a few are too weak to get DTV reception. The antenna is connected to my tuner with about 30 feet of RG-6: as part of this connection there is a mask-mounted 7777 preamp in the line. If I don't supply any power to the 7777, I get decent reception on most channels.
> 
> 
> So is there something wrong? Should the CM 7777 help my signal or totally destroy it?



Based on what you describe, the CM7777 should totally destroy it.


How do you know the problem is a weak signal, and not a nosiy/multipath-ridden one?


When you don't supply power to the 7777, it doesn't pass signals through - it blocks them completely. So you're getting reception from your RG-6 and any exposed metal in the line (connectors and the like.) That seems to me to indicate that you've got very strong signals. And in the presence of very strong signals, the 7777 is going to overload, destroying your reception.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smaerd58* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Everybody please can we drop the Civic association BS. I am looking for an attic antenna that will pick up the basic Digital HDchannels in my area ABC,CBS,NBC ...........
> 
> 
> violet - vhf WPVI 6 ABC PHILADELPHIA PA 27° 63.2 6
> 
> violet - vhf WCAU 10 NBC PHILADELPHIA PA 27° 63.2 10
> 
> violet - vhf KYW 3 CBS PHILADELPHIA PA 27° 63.2 3



Those channels listed are analog, not digital, and won't give you HD. Antennaweb undoubtably is not predicting that you'll get digital reception from those stations at your distance. In other words, getting the digital stations to come in *at all* is going to be difficult or impossible, even if you did everything right.


I have a 54' tower and an AntennasDirect 91XG, one of the best performing UHF antennas on the market, combined with a 28dB preamp (which you couldn't use because of strong local signals) and I *still* don't get reliable reception from digital stations 60 miles away.


Attic loss is anywhere from 8-12dB or so, which means you're going to take the already weak signals from Philadelphia and weaken them further by placing your antenna inside.


Quite simply, the reason nobody is giving you a "do this, I'm sure it will work" answer is that what you're trying to do is so unlikely to work that most aren't even bothering to reply to you. I already gave you my advice for what you can try, but you need to be realistic that it may not work at all, or may only work some of the time. You might have no trouble with one channel, but the others refuse to cooperate. Nobody else can realistically promise you better results, though their solutions may vary slightly.


The laws of physics won't change just because you want them to. And that's no civics BS.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smaerd58* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Everybody please can we drop the Civic association BS. I am looking for an attic antenna that will pick up the basic Digital HDchannels in my area ABC,CBS,NBC ...........
> 
> 
> violet - vhf WPVI 6 ABC PHILADELPHIA PA 27° 63.2 6
> 
> violet - vhf WCAU 10 NBC PHILADELPHIA PA 27° 63.2 10
> 
> violet - vhf KYW 3 CBS PHILADELPHIA PA 27° 63.2 3



If you don't want an outdoor antenna at that distance then you'd better call your cable co. or satellite provider to provide your locals.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *karhill* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So is there something wrong? Should the CM 7777 help my signal or totally destroy it?



I agree with Sregener. You don't say how close you are to your stations but it sounds like you are too close for a preamp. You're probably getting overload. Take it out of the loop entirely and see what happens.


----------



## smaerd58

Thanks for the honesty guys.I realized after reading your posts that the stations I mentioned where not Digital and also that the zip code where I live is missleading from antennaweb. I looked across the highway from my house where there is a store and went online to check the Zip it is different.The reason being is that when this community was started there was no local post office so we got grouped in with Dover but I live closer to Smyrna.I put in the new Zip and this is what I came up with. Also new wrinkle is that wife doesn't want antenna on roof. End of story its not worth the fights over this.I have been looking at 2 models of antennas that I can fit up in the attic. Does the 14-69 mean that I won't be able to use it on 3.1,6.1 channels?


40" Boom Length, 17 Elements Outdoor Antenna for UHF-Only (Channels 14-69) Catalog #: 15-2160 (RadioShack)


Channel Master 4228 (8-bay bowtie.)


* violet - uhf

KYW-DT 3.1 CBS PHILADELPHIA PA 31° 54.9 26

* violet - uhf

WYBE-DT 34.1 PBS PHILADELPHIA PA 31° 54.9 34

* violet - uhf

WPSG-DT 57.1 UPN PHILADELPHIA PA 31° 54.9 32

* violet - uhf

WPVI-DT 6.1 ABC PHILADELPHIA PA 31° 54.9 64


----------



## karhill




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Based on what you describe, the CM7777 should totally destroy it.
> 
> 
> How do you know the problem is a weak signal, and not a nosiy/multipath-ridden one?
> 
> 
> When you don't supply power to the 7777, it doesn't pass signals through - it blocks them completely. So you're getting reception from your RG-6 and any exposed metal in the line (connectors and the like.) That seems to me to indicate that you've got very strong signals. And in the presence of very strong signals, the 7777 is going to overload, destroying your reception.



Hmmm....I hope you are correct. However, that doesn't seem to match what I'm seeing: in particular, the recieved signal strength is sensitive to the orientation of the CM antenna, which I don't think it would be if I was only getting reception from the RG-6 and exposed metal in the line. I will however, remove the 7777 preamp from the mask and see what happens.


The problem seems to be a weak signal because I have issues only with the most distant stations, which register a weak dB signal on my signal checker application.


----------



## karhill




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I agree with Sregener. You don't say how close you are to your stations but it sounds like you are too close for a preamp. You're probably getting overload. Take it out of the loop entirely and see what happens.



The stations that I'm getting fine are mostly between 4 and 6 miles away, but I'm also getting one that's 22 miles away just fine. I'm trying to get a PBS station that is listed as 29 miles away. It comes in, but the signal level is only about 9 dB and it's not enough for my DTV tuner (a Divco Fusion 5) to grab a consistent picture.


I would have thought that the attenuator (which is adjustable) would have toned down any excessive amplification. And even if the CM 7777 preamp was overloading the local stations, I wouldn't expect it to completely kill the signal on the weak station that I'm trying to get. But then, I'm not that RF knowledgeable.


Sregener thinks that with the CM 7777 un-powered but still in the line, I'm not getting any signal from the antenna....I'm going to take the un-powered CM 7777 out of the loop and see what happens.


Thanks for the suggestions.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smaerd58* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have been looking at 2 models of antennas that I can fit up in the attic. Does the 14-69 mean that I won't be able to use it on 3.1,6.1 channels?
> 
> 
> 40" Boom Length, 17 Elements Outdoor Antenna for UHF-Only (Channels 14-69) Catalog #: 15-2160 (RadioShack)
> 
> 
> Channel Master 4228 (8-bay bowtie.)
> 
> 
> * violet - uhf
> 
> KYW-DT 3.1 CBS PHILADELPHIA PA 31° 54.9 26
> 
> * violet - uhf
> 
> WYBE-DT 34.1 PBS PHILADELPHIA PA 31° 54.9 34
> 
> * violet - uhf
> 
> WPSG-DT 57.1 UPN PHILADELPHIA PA 31° 54.9 32
> 
> * violet - uhf
> 
> WPVI-DT 6.1 ABC PHILADELPHIA PA 31° 54.9 64



You're still pushing things at 55 miles. It can be done if your terrain is really flat between you and the transmitters, or your location is significantly higher than average terrain, but I'd guess you're still going to have difficulty with an indoor/attic install. Realistically, I don't recommend attic installs for *anyone*, but they do seem to work okay for most inside of 30 miles. For above-average installs with a lot of luck, I've seen 70 miles done. You're still rolling the dice, though.


The Radio Shack is vastly inferior to the 4228.


You will have problems with WPVI-DT after the analog shutoff with these antennas, because WPVI will revert to channel 6. The others will all stay on channels 14-51. (The 3.1, 6.1 etc. are *virtual* channel numbers, and are not the channels they actually broadcast on. Those are the last number in each line. For instance, WPVI is using channel 64 currently to broadcast digitally.) When that happens, you can add a "cut-to-channel" antenna for channel 6 and combine it with your UHF downlead. It is probable that you wouldn't have trouble with WPVI-DT then, except during thunderstorms.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *karhill* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1) The stations that I'm getting fine are mostly between 4 and 6 miles away, but I'm also getting one that's 22 miles away just fine. I'm trying to get a PBS station that is listed as 29 miles away. It comes in, but the signal level is only about 9 dB and it's not enough for my DTV tuner (a Divco Fusion 5) to grab a consistent picture.
> 
> 
> 2) I would have thought that the attenuator (which is adjustable) would have toned down any excessive amplification. And even if the CM 7777 preamp was overloading the local stations, I wouldn't expect it to completely kill the signal on the weak station that I'm trying to get. But then, I'm not that RF knowledgeable.



1) With stations that close, you can't use the 7777. It *will* overload. You shouldn't need amplification for a station 29 miles away, either, unless they're at very low power or are broadcasting from the ground.


2) The problem is that an amplifier isn't a smart device - it doesn't know what signals are strong and what ones are weak. It takes the whole spectrum as input and boosts the waveform. The strongest signals are probably somewhere between 100 and 1000 times stronger than the weakest ones. The amplifier spends most of its voltage boosting those, as they make up most of the input voltage. And once they overload, the signal gets garbled. Attenuating it after that point doesn't matter - the signal is trashed. If you're familiar with digital cameras, if you overexpose a part of the image, it gets represented as "pure white." No amount of playing with curves or other tools will bring back the detail that was there - the information is gone.


If you must use an amplifier for the weak signals, the only one worth considering is the Winegard HDP-269, which isn't supposed to overload like the others do.


----------



## smaerd58

If you absolutely had to go the attic route is there a antenna you would reccamend? Thanks


----------



## AntAltMike

Smaerd58 shouldn't have an overload problem from local analog channels 14 and 27 because they are low powered (11Kw and 81 Kw, and 60 degrees off his Philly boresight.


In desperation, he might go with a CM-4228 and a high gain preamp, and a rotor would be a must for "tweaking:' as may be beneficial. One he determines exactly what direction Philly comes from, he should mast his antenna such that the Philly transmission path avoids any windows, ducts or other metallic or dense parts of his attic.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smaerd58* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you absolutely had to go the attic route is there a antenna you would reccamend? Thanks



The 4228 is the best commercially-made attic antenna, period.


----------



## holl_ands

Highly concur, exclamation mark!!!


CM-4228 not only has very high gain, but is also very compact.

Some people have even used them with rotators....


Only the extremely long Yagi's have more gain on the higher channels,

but good luck mounting and carefully orienting one in between rafters.

And forgetabout a rotator....


----------



## karhill




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1) With stations that close, you can't use the 7777. It *will* overload. You shouldn't need amplification for a station 29 miles away, either, unless they're at very low power or are broadcasting from the ground.
> 
> 
> 2) The problem is that an amplifier isn't a smart device - it doesn't know what signals are strong and what ones are weak. It takes the whole spectrum as input and boosts the waveform.
> 
> 
> If you must use an amplifier for the weak signals, the only one worth considering is the Winegard HDP-269, which isn't supposed to overload like the others do.



Thanks for the further explanation, I've got a better handle on what's happening now. I'm going to pull the 7777 off the mask and see if things improve over the 7777 on the mask, but unpowered.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *karhill* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The stations that I'm getting fine are mostly between 4 and 6 miles away, but I'm also getting one that's 22 miles away just fine. I'm trying to get a PBS station that is listed as 29 miles away. It comes in, but the signal level is only about 9 dB and it's not enough for my DTV tuner (a Divco Fusion 5) to grab a consistent picture.
> 
> 
> I would have thought that the attenuator (which is adjustable) would have toned down any excessive amplification. And even if the CM 7777 preamp was overloading the local stations, I wouldn't expect it to completely kill the signal on the weak station that I'm trying to get. But then, I'm not that RF knowledgeable.
> 
> 
> Sregener thinks that with the CM 7777 un-powered but still in the line, I'm not getting any signal from the antenna....I'm going to take the un-powered CM 7777 out of the loop and see what happens.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions.



With broadcast towers only 4-6 miles away, the CM-7777 is extremely overloaded,

and will prevent reception of the weaker stations, depending on where the intermod products lie...


You should first try moving a high gain antenna (e.g. CM-4228) to different locations to try to optimize reception of distant stations.


If that isn't enough, you could then try the W-G HDP-269 VHF/UHF Preamp.

It is a lower gain Preamp intended for urban applications, with considerably higher overload capability.


BTW: An attenuator to prevent Preamp overload would be used between the antenna and the Preamp.

In very high signal level locations like yours, a second attenuator may be needed on the output of the Preamp

to prevent desensitization of your HDTV's tuner.


I prepared spread sheets to calculate these overload conditions for a similiar situation in Santa Rosa, CA here:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST20070 


And here is another example prepared for San Diego, CA location:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9post6811219


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> CM-4228 not only has very high gain, but is also very compact.
> 
> Some people have even used them with rotators....
> 
> 
> Only the extremely long Yagi's have more gain on the higher channels...



The 4228's advantage is that it is already a horizontal and vertical stack. Attics tend to be awash in reflections from everything metal in the attic. The stacks help to drill through that and only lock onto the primary signal. Outdoors, this advantage decreases and yagis can be better. But in an attic, the 4228 is the champion until you do an 8-bay yagi.


----------



## newsposter

I'm getting a 2nd Hdtivo soon. I have a db8 on the roof...20ft down the wire into the attic i have a leviton 25db amp then about 100 ft of wire to the HDtivo. I must have that amp or i can't watch OTA. On the off chance that a cheapo splitter degrades my signal (i AM on the cusp of losing 2 channels as they are only 71 on the meter), what kind of amp could i put behind the tivos to split that wire successfully? (the tivos will be stacked)


i'm worried about 2 amps on the same ota wire


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smaerd58* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you absolutely had to go the attic route is there a antenna you would reccamend? Thanks



I would recommend getting 2 Quad-X antennas like the Antennas Direct XG91 series,either in vertical or horizontal stack(you said you had plenty of room).Much better gain and directivity on the higher channels(like 62,64,67,PBS,ABC,NBC) than the 4228,plus,if one or two don't work you can send one or both of them back.In all likelyhood you won't be able to return a 4228.The 4228's performance above Ch60 is mediocre.


My 2 cents


Greg B

Midwest Dxer


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm getting a 2nd Hdtivo soon. I have a db8 on the roof...20ft down the wire into the attic i have a leviton 25db amp then about 100 ft of wire to the HDtivo. I must have that amp or i can't watch OTA. On the off chance that a cheapo splitter degrades my signal (i AM on the cusp of losing 2 channels as they are only 71 on the meter), what kind of amp could i put behind the tivos to split that wire successfully? (the tivos will be stacked)
> 
> 
> i'm worried about 2 amps on the same ota wire



I doubt you'll need another amp.


If you do, use another distribution amp.


Good: CM 3042


Even better: Channelvision CVT15PIA


The other option would be to put a preamp in ahead of the Leviton and move the Leviton down right before the split. I don't know how close you are to your stations, though, and how prone you might be to overload. If you are


----------



## AntennaMaster

I would like to personally thank everyone for their assistance and guidance with my antenna selection process.


Your extra effort in answering my emails has made me more aware of what to look for in an antenna.


I have installed the Dehli VIP-307 (VHF) and the Winegard 9032 (UHF) coupled into the Winegard AP-2870 preamp. (will try the CM 7777 later on, just did not want to overdrive the preamp).


At present, I am thinking adding another 9032 (vertical stack). However, with two 9032's and a VIP-307 on the bottom, I wonder if I will have enough distance inbetween the antennas without interfering with one another. That is the UHF and VHF. In doing some research, you want to have the booms 31.5" away from another with the 9032 stack, or that is 1.5" from the corner reflectors.


So, for the final questions:


1) What is your opinion with stacking the 9032's vertically? Is it woth the effort?


2) Adding the addtional antenna will consume more of the mask, which will not allow 4' inbetween them. Ideas?


Thanks..


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntennaMaster* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would like to personally thank everyone for their assistance and guidance with my antenna selection process.
> 
> 
> Your extra effort in answering my emails has made me more aware of what to look for in an antenna.
> 
> 
> I have installed the Dehli VIP-307 (VHF) and the Winegard 9032 (UHF) coupled into the Winegard AP-2870 preamp. (will try the CM 7777 later on, just did not want to overdrive the preamp).
> 
> 
> At present, I am thinking adding another 9032 (vertical stack). However, with two 9032's and a VIP-307 on the bottom, I wonder if I will have enough distance inbetween the antennas without interfering with one another. That is the UHF and VHF. In doing some research, you want to have the booms 31.5" away from another with the 9032 stack, or that is 1.5" from the corner reflectors.
> 
> 
> So, for the final questions:
> 
> 
> 1) What is your opinion with stacking the 9032's vertically? Is it woth the effort?
> 
> 
> 2) Adding the addtional antenna will consume more of the mask, which will not allow 4' inbetween them. Ideas?
> 
> 
> Thanks..



Well, there's the rub. A vertical stack may give you increased performance with little extra effort in regards to installation but it all depends on the installation. If you are using a rotor you'll need a guyed thrust bearing with a vertical stack because of the lever arm above the rotator. A horizontal stack will be added effort in installation but can be installed with minimal lever arm above the rotator and also IMO will perform better overall.


If you aren't planning on a rotator and you have plenty of mast space, try the vertical stack. You've little to lose.


I'm assuming you will put the Delhi below and fix it regardless. 60 inch spacing should be sufficient. You can get away with around 48 inches if your emphasis is high band vhf (7-13).


----------



## smaerd58




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would recommend getting 2 Quad-X antennas like the Antennas Direct XG91 series,either in vertical or horizontal stack(you said you had plenty of room).Much better gain and directivity on the higher channels(like 62,64,67,PBS,ABC,NBC) than the 4228,plus,if one or two don't work you can send one or both of them back.In all likelyhood you won't be able to return a 4228.The 4228's performance above Ch60 is mediocre.
> 
> 
> My 2 cents
> 
> 
> Greg B
> 
> Midwest Dxer



I am new to this but if these are the channels that I may be able to get

violet - uhf

KYW-DT 3.1 CBS PHILADELPHIA PA 31° 54.9 26

* violet - uhf

WYBE-DT 34.1 PBS PHILADELPHIA PA 31° 54.9 34

* violet - uhf

WPSG-DT 57.1 UPN PHILADELPHIA PA 31° 54.9 32

* violet - uhf

WPVI-DT 6.1 ABC PHILADELPHIA PA 31° 54.9 64


and the antenna you like XG91 series uses UHF channels 14-69 my channels are 3,6,10 etc. will this work? Thanks


----------



## karhill




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *karhill* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the further explanation, I've got a better handle on what's happening now. I'm going to pull the 7777 off the mask and see if things improve over the 7777 on the mask, but unpowered.



Holly cow! Sregener was absolutely correct when he said that an unpowered 7777 blocks the signals completely. With the unpowered 7777 preamp, I must have been using just the RG-6 and the metal box of the 7777 itself as the antenna. The asymetrical 7777 box probably accounted for the directional sensitivity I noticed as I rotated the mask.


Taking the 7777 preamp out of the loop, I simply have about 30-35 feet of RG-6 leading to a roof mounted Channel Master 4221A (4 bay bow-tie). And now I get 100% on every digital station, absolutely no problems, from the close-in 4-6 mile stations to the 29 mile station that I was having problems with previously. The improvement is quite dramatic! (I guess that's to be expected when you're going from a length of RG-6 attached to a metal box to an actual antenna!)


My previous antenna was an attic mounted Silver Sensor. Going to a roof-mounted CM 4221A is a very dramatic step up in reception.


Thank you Sregener, cpcat and holl_ands for providing me with a bit of education on RF reception.


----------



## karhill




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntennaMaster* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would like to personally thank everyone for their assistance and guidance with my antenna selection process.
> 
> 
> I have installed the Dehli VIP-307 (VHF) and the Winegard 9032 (UHF) coupled into the Winegard AP-2870 preamp. (will try the CM 7777 later on, just did not want to overdrive the preamp).



If you're looking for a deal on the CM 7777, I've got a brand new one, used for 1 week (and actually powered for only about 15 minutes of that 1 week).


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smaerd58* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am new to this but if these are the channels that I may be able to get
> 
> violet - uhf
> 
> KYW-DT 3.1 CBS PHILADELPHIA PA 31° 54.9 26
> 
> * violet - uhf
> 
> WYBE-DT 34.1 PBS PHILADELPHIA PA 31° 54.9 34
> 
> * violet - uhf
> 
> WPSG-DT 57.1 UPN PHILADELPHIA PA 31° 54.9 32
> 
> * violet - uhf
> 
> WPVI-DT 6.1 ABC PHILADELPHIA PA 31° 54.9 64
> 
> 
> and the antenna you like XG91 series uses UHF channels 14-69 my channels are 3,6,10 etc. will this work? Thanks



I tried to explain this once before, but here goes again, in more detail.


Breaking this down, item by item.


"violet" - refers to type of antenna, violet being the largest.

"uhf" - refers to the band the station is broadcasting on, in this case uhf which is channels 14-69.

"KYW-DT" - call sign of the station, with "DT" meaning digital

"3.1" - the virtual channel sent by the station, and what your receiver will display when you tune to this channel.

"CBS" - the network of the station

"PHILADELPHIA PA" - the station from which the signal originates

"31°" - the compass direction (not magnetically corrected) from your location to the transmitter

"54.9" - the distance in miles the signal must travel to reach your address

"26" - *the actual physical channel the station is broadcasting on*


So to get the stations listed above, you need an antenna that will receive channels 26, 32, 34 and 64.


----------



## smaerd58

sregener , that explanation ROCKS ! Cleared it right up for me.I just finished building a HTPC for my living room so this will complete the high def end I hope.I will post what happens as this might help other people.Thanks again,Rick


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smaerd58* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am new to this but if these are the channels that I may be able to get
> 
> violet - uhf
> 
> KYW-DT 3.1 CBS PHILADELPHIA PA 31° 54.9 26
> 
> * violet - uhf
> 
> WYBE-DT 34.1 PBS PHILADELPHIA PA 31° 54.9 34
> 
> * violet - uhf
> 
> WPSG-DT 57.1 UPN PHILADELPHIA PA 31° 54.9 32
> 
> * violet - uhf
> 
> WPVI-DT 6.1 ABC PHILADELPHIA PA 31° 54.9 64
> 
> 
> and the antenna you like XG91 series uses UHF channels 14-69 my channels are 3,6,10 etc. will this work? Thanks



You'd probably get more info in the philly thread just FYI. but just wanted to let you know if you have trouble getting abc/nbc (64/67) that in 2009, 67 (nbc10) is moving down to 34 and 34 is moving up to 35. 67 (abc) is moving back to VHF 6. And 54 (wb17) was supposed to go to 17 but i'm pretty sure with CW coming, they are going to still reside at channel 32 (UPN will become cw). I forget the exact details but i'm sure they are in that thread.


My point is, you are farther away than me by 15 miles so you are likely going to have some of the same problems as me. Fox was the absolute worst to pick up but WB and nbc were a close second. I hope you have a very clear line of sight to help you







good luck


PS i dont know anything about the xg91 but if it can get in vhf 6, you are a long way towards saving yourself another headache in 3 years. I just put up my DB8 and said i'll worry about that later


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> And 54 (wb17) was supposed to go to 17 but i'm pretty sure with CW coming, they are going to still reside at channel 32 (UPN will become cw).
> 
> 
> PS i dont know anything about the xg91 but if it can get in vhf 6, you are a long way towards saving yourself another headache in 3 years.



First of all, network affiliation changes will have no impact on what each station's digital allocation will be in 2009. WPHL has elected to move to channel 17, period. WPSG has elected to move to channel 32. Now, if you're concerned about watching WB/UPN programming, what's left of it when CW starts in the fall may be on channel 32 (I haven't followed the affiliate selection for Philadelphia.)


The 91XG is a poor antenna for VHF channel 6. I am within the Grade B contours for a channel 6 analog station and getting the picture to be color is very hard, and getting a clear image is well nigh impossible.


If you scroll down this page, search for "# Y-5-2-6LOW BAND 5 ELEMENT for CHANNELS 2 TO 6" for a solution for channel 6: www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm 


You can combine the two using a simple splitter, or the more expensive Channel Master part #0549.


----------



## Morpheus_Rising

Here's my experience (and I need help in choosing a second antenna):


Back in 2004 I started to put together an outdoor antenna system. I put up a 53-foot antenna tower and purchased the


Channel Master 9521A rotor system and two Channel Master 7777 pre-amps. Next, I purchased two long-range antennas, one was


the XG-91 from Antennas Direct,

http://www.antennasdirect.com/91XG_HDTV_antenna.html 


UHF antenna, 93" long, 91 elements, and the other was the Radio Shack VU-210XR

http://www.thesourcecc.com/estore/Pr...C07FA28E88EDCD 


VHF / UHF / FM antenna, 190" long, 58 elements.


I had the two pre-amps set to combine both VHF and UHF. I had an underground pvc pipe going from the antenna tower into a basement bedroom to bring all the cables from the antennas to inside the house. At the end of 2004 to the beginning of 2005, I gutted the basement bedroom and it was totally renovated turning it into a computer room / home theater room / bedroom. In July 2005 I bought the MDP-130 HDTV PCI tv tuner card for my pc and hooked it up to the antennas. I used an A/B coaxial switch so I can choose between antenna one (XG-91) or antenna two (VU-210XR). The second coax connector on the tuner card is connected to tv cable.


I live on the Canadian shore of Lake Ontario and my goal was to orient the antennas south so I can catch the HD stations from the US (mainly the Watertown and Syracuse stations). If I could catch stations from other cities, that would be a bonus. I met with success, I was getting 20 or so stations (both analog and digital). Here's a partial list of stations that I was getting:


Watertown:


ABC 50 WWTI (analog 50, and digital D21)

CBS 7 WWNY (analog 07, and digital D35-1)

Fox 28 WWYF (digtal D35-2)

PBS 16 WPBS (analog 16, and digital D41)


Syracuse:


ABC 9 WIXT (WSYR?) (digital D17)

CBS 5 WTVH (digital D47)

FOX 68 WSYT (analog 68, digital D19)

PBS 24 WCNY (analog 24, digital D25 - main channel plus 2 sub-channels)


WB 43 WNYS (analog 43)

PAX 56 WSPX (analog 56) (Independant station)


NBC 3 WSTM (Digital 54) / UPN 6 WSTQ (I was briefly getting this)



Canadian stations:


CTV 13 CJOH (analog 06)

CBC 11 CKWS (analog 11)


----------------------------------


I was briefly getting ABC 13 WHAM (Rochester) at the beginning when I had the antennas pointing north(?). There's a few other stations that I get faintly. I compared the XG-91 antenna with the VU-210XR and I found that the XG-91 antenna was receiving more channels and with better clarity than the VU-210XR. So, I didn't really use the VU-210XR that much at all.


In November 2005 my antennas become stuck pointing North. I called my antenna installer, who told me that the metal mast the the 2 antennas were connected to (that they provided) was being crunched at the bottom. That and the fact that they mounted the rotor above the tower instead of inside it (between the two triangle plates) which would have given extra support for the wind load - means that they had to take down the 2 antennas and redo it (charging me to do it again). Since these guys didn't do it properly the first time I was going to get someone else to do it. Since it was November and the beginning of winter, I decided to wait until April to have it done. Well in mid-March the antenna mast separated from the rotor and was hanging upside down at the top of the tower (still connected by the 2 coax cables). I had someone come in and take down the antennas, unfortunately both antennas were damaged. I need to get 2 new antennas.


I'm getting another XG-91 from Antennas Direct. I have decided not to get another Radio Shack VU-210XR. I'm doing research trying to chose a second antenna. I saw the the DB8 antenna from Antennas Direct:

http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB8_HD_Antenna.html 


It's almost as good as the XG-91. With the XG-91, I can get VHF channels 6, 7, and 11 very clear, but channels 2, 3, 5, 8, 9, and 10 are very faintly. So, instead of getting the DB8 antenna, I thought about getting a VHF antenna or low-band VHF antenna. Antenna Direct has the V21 High gain UHF / VHF antenna:

http://www.antennasdirect.com/V21_vhf_antenna.html 


and the V4 Low Band VHF antenna:

http://www.antennasdirect.com/V4_antenna.html 



I have to check Winegard and a few others for a VHF/FM long range antenna, or a low-band VHF/FM long range antenna.


----------



## jayfore

I don't mind having to mount one on the roof, if need be. I don't want to see these huge rabbit ears sitting atop my beautiful new TV. I tried the Terk HDTVa and it was basically useless.


I'm wondering... Will I typically get as good a result mounting an antenna in my attic as I will strapping it to my chimney? Will the shingles interfere enough to make a difference? Obviously, the antenna in the attic would be less of a chore to install.


Finally, any recommendations for a good make/model antenna? Are some better than others, or are they all about the same? If going the attic/roof route, do I need an amplified one?


THANKS!


Jay


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jayfore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm wondering... Will I typically get as good a result mounting an antenna in my attic as I will strapping it to my chimney? Will the shingles interfere enough to make a difference? Obviously, the antenna in the attic would be less of a chore to install.
> 
> 
> Finally, any recommendations for a good make/model antenna? Are some better than others, or are they all about the same? If going the attic/roof route, do I need an amplified one?



Jay, you haven't given us enough information to even begin to formulate an answer.


Attic antennas are not recommended, though they do work for many people who are either very close to the transmitters or are just plain lucky. The difference can be significant - 8-12dB is commonly given. 3dB is equal to a doubling of signal strength, so at 12dB, you're talking about letting through less than 13% of the original signal. Will that be enough? It all depends...


If you can provide us your zip code, desired stations, etc., we can tell you more about what antenna to get, and whether you'd want amplification or not. No, they are not all alike. They vary wildly. You didn't really think people put huge antennas on their roof or tower when rabbit ears would have done just as well, do you?


----------



## smaerd58

I was just ready to get my CM 4228 and was checking something out on antennaweb and put in my zip 19977 and there are absolutely no Digital stations available for me now. I can only imagine that they decreased the transmission rate because the Satellite companies are now going to have HD locals for like 5.99 which sounds good except you now have to buy new receivers from them for the mpeg 4. And to get the HD locals you have to have a HD package from them as well.Well I guess this is how they are going to pay back themselves for the upgrade.They got me by the short hairs if I want locals with HD. I hope that the telephone company combines there broadband and tv together to compete.Thanks to everybody here,Rick


----------



## jayfore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Jay, you haven't given us enough information to even begin to formulate an answer.
> 
> 
> Attic antennas are not recommended, though they do work for many people who are either very close to the transmitters or are just plain lucky. The difference can be significant - 8-12dB is commonly given. 3dB is equal to a doubling of signal strength, so at 12dB, you're talking about letting through less than 13% of the original signal. Will that be enough? It all depends...
> 
> 
> If you can provide us your zip code, desired stations, etc., we can tell you more about what antenna to get, and whether you'd want amplification or not. No, they are not all alike. They vary wildly. You didn't really think people put huge antennas on their roof or tower when rabbit ears would have done just as well, do you?



Thanks for your response! My ZIP is 48071 and antennaweb tells me that I'm no more than 10 miles from any of the stations I want to get (basically, all the network stations) and should use a "small multidirectional antenna". I tried that Terk HDTVa and received most of the channels, but they looked less than spectacular (plus, with the antennas extended, the antenna was bigger than my 50" TV -- ridiculous and unacceptable. So that was why I figured I needed something more serious. I'm in a single-story house and that's all I have in my neighborhood, really. Very few trees, too (much to my dismay, where it's not related to TV reception).


Would either of these (1) (2) be worth getting? People seem to say that Terk antennas are junk, and I see a lot of people saying they just have old Radio Shack ones that work great. I guess I'd like to somehow figure out which type would be best for me, and then see if anyone has any recommendations of specific units of that type.


Thanks for any insights!


Jay


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smaerd58* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was just ready to get my CM 4228 and was checking something out on antennaweb and put in my zip 19977 and there are absolutely no Digital stations available for me now.



Must have been a temporary glitch. I tried it just now and got


WYBE-DT (34.1, 34)

KYW-DT (3.1, 26)

WPHL-DT (17.1, 54)

WPSG-DT (57.1, 32)

WPVI-DT (6.1, 64)


all at 54.9 miles. With the flat terrain you have there, you should have a good chance of getting these with a CM4228 on the roof.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smaerd58* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was just ready to get my CM 4228 and was checking something out on antennaweb and put in my zip 19977 and there are absolutely no Digital stations available for me now. I can only imagine that they decreased the transmission rate because the Satellite companies are now going to have HD locals...



You must have made a mistake, or maybe antennaweb was playing with their forumla. I just did a check and there's four digitals listed for you.


The broadcasters aren't going to reduce power just because the satellite companies are offering their signal. They *want* people to watch their signal, which is why they broadcast it in the first place. Satellite may have some influence, but they don't have the money to convince broadcasters to reduce power. Reducing power would also decrease the value of the broadcaster when they sought to sell, which is not a good thing for them.


You've gotten this far, you may as well give it a try.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jayfore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I tried that Terk HDTVa and received most of the channels, but they looked less than spectacular (plus, with the antennas extended, the antenna was bigger than my 50" TV -- ridiculous and unacceptable.
> 
> 
> People seem to say that Terk antennas are junk, and I see a lot of people saying they just have old Radio Shack ones that work great. I guess I'd like to somehow figure out which type would be best for me, and then see if anyone has any recommendations of specific units of that type.



At 10 miles, you don't want anything that is amplified.


The highest recommended antenna for indoor use is the Zenith Silver Sensor. The Terk HDTVa is similar, except for the amplification.


If you're getting the digital signals, that's the best you can do - the pictures won't look better with a better antenna. If you're still watching the analog ones...


You also don't need to extend the antennas - they're for VHF, and none of your digitals are on VHF.


----------



## jayfore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> At 10 miles, you don't want anything that is amplified.
> 
> 
> The highest recommended antenna for indoor use is the Zenith Silver Sensor. The Terk HDTVa is similar, except for the amplification.
> 
> 
> If you're getting the digital signals, that's the best you can do - the pictures won't look better with a better antenna. If you're still watching the analog ones...
> 
> 
> You also don't need to extend the antennas - they're for VHF, and none of your digitals are on VHF.



THANK YOU for the info!! Is this the Zenith antenna that you refer to?


The instructions were so poor with the Terk that I had no idea about those extendable antenna arms only being used for VHF -- thanks again! So much useful information in those few lines.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jayfore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> THANK YOU for the info!! Is this the Zenith antenna that you refer to?



Yes, that's the antenna. It looks similar enough to your HDTVa that you might be able to get comparable results by turning off the amplification on the one you have. But you'll probably save money with the unamplified version from Zenith.


----------



## jayfore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes, that's the antenna. It looks similar enough to your HDTVa that you might be able to get comparable results by turning off the amplification on the one you have. But you'll probably save money with the unamplified version from Zenith.



I tried with and without amplification on the HDTVa (which I returned)... So you figure it's not worth trying one of these? It looks like nobody sells them locally -- I'd like to save on shipping in case it doesn't work out and needs to be returned.


Also, if these types don't work, would you expect that I would have better results with a roof-mounted antenna, then?


----------



## tibidip

Hello all,


I just purchased an HDTV set and connected a TERK HDTVa - Amplified Directional Indoor HDTV Antenna. Although I get all the local HDTV channels (with better results late at night) I'm not 100% pleased with the antenna because of spotty reception and not being able to clearly capture analog feed. So I'm thinking of getting the Winegard Squareshooter SS200 or the Terk HDTV-s.


Anybody have any experience with either of these antennas - are they any good? Also how hard are they to install? I've read where you can mount it to the satellite dish and share the same cable. If I do this installation is it still necessary to ground the antenna?


Any input would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## kenglish

Go with a real antenna....."the uglier, the better" is the saying, although you don't always need something huge, and you don't always need to mount it in the most visible location, either.


If your stations are all UHF, you can get by with something fairly small. A "real" (VHF+UHF) antenna, though, will give you all the existing analog stations, as well as FM reception.


Forget the ones that mount to the dish. They almost always are pointing in the wrong direction, and the metal dish can interfere with reception. Plus, diplexers (for sharing the same cable) aren't the optimal solution.


Use good RG-6/U cable, proper connectors, and be sure to ground the system per the instructions they supply. Main thing is to get it grounded to "earth" and to the same as the house electrical ground, to prevent safety hazards.


Make the coax connections "just beyond finger tight" (being sure the connectors are on straight....watch out on those "D" shaped, and "flat on two sides" connector jacks). Weatherproof everything that's outdoors or in the crawl spaces....tape won't do it, you need something pliable, like RTV or that putty they sell at electronics stores.


Most of the time, a split or two won't hurt. Just get good quality splitters, and make sure the connections are good. For FM, a tap (rather than a splitter) will work to feed the FM receiver....most are far more sensitive than needed. A 12 or 16 dB tap usually is OK. That passes most of the signal on, to the TV, but "taps" a bit off to the FM.


Try to mount the antenna with proper hardware, usually to some solid wall studs or roof joists....don't forget to waterproof the bolt holes.


Radio Shack has many of the cable clamps and stuff, but a trip to a pro Electronics Parts house, like the TV repair guys use, is a good one-stop shopping trip.


----------



## velvet396




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> None of those antennas are going to reliably receive Columbus, and you will probably find the CM-4221/3021 to be inadequate indoors at 34 miles away.
> 
> 
> Antennaweb only shows you being able to reliably receive two nearly DTV stations: i-PAX (10 mi, 181 deg) and PBS (26 mi, 286 deg)....that's with an outdoor antenna on a pole.
> 
> 
> It appears that you need an antenna with a significant amount of gain in order to work towards receiving the Columbus DTV group 34 miles away (260 degrees)...



Got the TV last night and the auto setup found







72 digital channels _not_ on the antenna, but through my basic cable! lol! Granted, about 62 of those are music channels, guess I don't have to worry about messing with an antenna! The only station I don't get is ABC's digital feed, and since I don't watch LOST that's just fine with me!







It would be nice to get FOX though...


----------



## TV Trey

I would try the Winegard Pr-5030 using one of your CM 7777's set for VHF input and your XG-91 with the other CM 7777 set to UHF input. Then combine both antennas together using a Winegard CS-7750. This to be done inside after the CM7777's power supplies. By doing so you can now eliminate your A/B switch.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jayfore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also, if these types don't work, would you expect that I would have better results with a roof-mounted antenna, then?



Yes. The Channel Master 4221 is the antenna of choice for your range.


----------



## jayfore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tibidip* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just purchased an HDTV set and connected a TERK HDTVa - Amplified Directional Indoor HDTV Antenna. Although I get all the local HDTV channels (with better results late at night) I'm not 100% pleased with the antenna because of spotty reception and not being able to clearly capture analog feed.



I had similar results w/ the Terk HDTVa -- worthless to me. I'm in the same boat as you, wondering what is my best route now. Some very useful replies have already been posted on roof antennas -- thanks guys!


----------



## ST RICH

What does the screen on the back of the antenna do? The reason I asked this question is because it does not fit in my attic rafters. If I remove the screen or cut the top corners of the screen, it will fit. Before I ruin this antenna, I wanted some advice (i.e. to remove or not OR to cut or not). Any thoughts would be appreciated.


----------



## tibidip

I was under the impression that you need an HDTV antenna to receive OTA HD programming. According to a thread on this forum this is not the case. With this in mind I currently have an older antenna (at least 8 years old) which is installed on the roof but I have never had to use it because I've always had satellite since moving into the house. Now if this antenna can capture digital/analog signals I'd like to put it to use. However my problem is it's using the older 300-ohm television twin-lead cable. My question is can I replace the twin lead-cable with the newer 75-ohm coaxial cable and if so how hard or difficult would that be?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ST RICH* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What does the screen on the back of the antenna do? The reason I asked this question is because it does not fit in my attic rafters. If I remove the screen or cut the top corners of the screen, it will fit. Before I ruin this antenna, I wanted some advice (i.e. to remove or not OR to cut or not). Any thoughts would be appreciated.



The screen serves two purposes by doing the same thing. Signals reflect off of metal that is longer than 1/2 wavelength. Signals coming from behind (usually reflections) bounce back from whence they came, eliminating a common source of multipath and improving the directionality of the antenna for sources behind it. The screen also reflects the signals that pass through the bowtie area, directiong them back at the bowties. For a perfect reflector, this would improve gain by 3dB. The distance is so short from the bowtie to the screen that the two sources appear to arrive at the same time, so there is no multipath there.


Cutting the top corners would be much better than removing the screen entirely.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tibidip* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was under the impression that you need an HDTV antenna to receive OTA HD programming.
> 
> 
> However my problem is it's using the older 300-ohm television twin-lead cable. My question is can I replace the twin lead-cable with the newer 75-ohm coaxial cable and if so how hard or difficult would that be?



'Tain't no such thing as an HD antenna. Antennas receive signals for the frequencies they're designed for. Since analog and digital television in the US are in the same frequency range, almost any "old" antenna will work. I say "almost" because some antennas are VHF-only, and most digital signals are UHF. It is almost certain that you have a VHF/UHF combo antenna that will work fine for both.


No need to replace that cable. Just get a transformer like this one: http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=family


----------



## barrygordon

To receive HD OTA signals what you need is an antenna that works for the frequencies that the stations are transmitting at. The TV band was divided into two basic frequency ranges. VHF which is channels 2-13 and UHF which is channels 14-83. Most, but not all stations transmitting an HD signal are in the UHF band. You will need to check the stations in your area. Antennaweb.com is a good source of that info.


The antenna you need then is either UHF or VHF or both with appropriate gain to bring in the signals from the stations you desire. The more gain the antenna has, the better it will be at receiving signals. Likewise the higher you mount it the better it will operate.


The old 300 ohm flat leadin may be easily replaced by 75 ohm coaxial. What you need is a Balun or impedance matching transformer to convert from the antennas impedance of 300 ohms to the coaxial cables impedance of 75 ohms. This is an inexpensive device available at radio shack and attaches where the old 300 ohm flat leadin attached to the antenna. It has a F connection to attach the 75 ohm coaxial cable to it.


I suggest replacing the cable. 75 ohm coaxial is less susceptable to noise and interference than the old 300 ohm twin lead. The balun shown in the previous post is normally used indoors behind the TV. It is the type you want if you do not replace the existing downlead. The type you want if you replace the downlead with coaxial (RG6) is the outdoor type that attaches directly to the antenna.


Hope this helps.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tibidip* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was under the impression that you need an HDTV antenna to receive OTA HD programming. According to a thread on this forum this is not the case. With this in mind I currently have an older antenna (at least 8 years old) which is installed on the roof but I have never had to use it because I've always had satellite since moving into the house. Now if this antenna can capture digital/analog signals I'd like to put it to use. However my problem is it's using the older 300-ohm television twin-lead cable. My question is can I replace the twin lead-cable with the newer 75-ohm coaxial cable and if so how hard or difficult would that be?



they got you with their advertising. I can't address the 75ohm thing (i'm pretty sure there is an adapter) but do know that it's definitely worth hooking that up to see if it works. There is simply no difference in HD antennas vs others. A 20 yr old antenna in great shape (an unlikely find i know) is just as good as today. Of course there is a difference in VHF and UHF so you must know what channels you need.


And receivers like a hi definition tivo only do get in the digital channels not the analog, but that's a whole different story. The antenna is still picking up analog.


----------



## tibidip




sregener said:


> 'Tain't no such thing as an HD antenna. Antennas receive signals for the frequencies they're designed for. Since analog and digital television in the US are in the same frequency range, almost any "old" antenna will work. I say "almost" because some antennas are VHF-only, and most digital signals are UHF. It is almost certain that you have a VHF/UHF combo antenna that will work fine for both.
> 
> 
> No need to replace that cable. Just get a transformer like this one:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks a bunch. I'm going to try that route. I'd prefer not have to change the cable unless it's really necessary or because of bad reception. How hard is it to replace the ends of the twin lead if they break off meaning the ends that would fit into the transformer?


----------



## tibidip




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *barrygordon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> To receive HD OTA signals what you need is an antenna that works for the frequencies that the stations are transmitting at. The TV band was divided into two basic frequency ranges. VHF which is channels 2-13 and UHF which is channels 14-83. Most, but not all stations transmitting an HD signal are in the UHF band. You will need to check the stations in your area. Antennaweb is a good source of that info.
> 
> 
> The antenna you need then is either UHF or VHF or both with appropriate gain to bring in the signals from the stations you desire. The more gain the antenna has, the better it will be at receiving signals. Likewise the higher you mount it the better it will operate.
> 
> 
> The old 300 ohm flat leadin may be easily replaced by 75 ohm coaxial. What you need is a Balun or impedance matching transformer to convert from the antennas impedance of 300 ohms to the coaxial cables impedance of 75 ohms. This is an inexpensive device available at radio shack and attaches where the old 300 ohm flat leadin attached to the antenna. It has a F connection to attach the 75 ohm coaxial cable to it.
> 
> 
> I suggest replacing the cable. 75 ohm coaxial is less susceptable to noise and interference than the old 300 ohm twin lead. The balun shown in the previous post is normally used indoors behind the TV. It is the type you want if you do not replace the existing downlead. The type you want if you replace the downlead with coaxial (RG6) is the outdoor type that attaches directly to the antenna.
> 
> 
> Hope this helps.




Thanks a lot it certainly helps. I think i"ll try the indoor balun first and judge if the reception is good if not I guess I'll try to replace the cable. How hard of a job is it? As I'm sure you can tell this is not my forte.


----------



## Rammitinski

Even if your reception is mostly good but you've got any stations that are just borderline, I'd probably go ahead and change it anyway. And even if the antenna is intact, the connections might not be in such great shape. But you may not have to. Depends on your needs, too, I guess. But if you go all out (RG6 or better, preamp, rotor), you may be able to receive more channels, depending on their locations and distances. (Think of all those channels and free HD, and you can go tell the cable/satellite companies to go stick it!).


----------



## tibidip




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Even if your reception is mostly good but you've got any stations that are just borderline, I'd probably go ahead and change it anyway. And even if the antenna is intact, the connections might not be in such great shape. But you may not have to. Depends on your needs, too, I guess. But if you go all out (RG6 or better, preamp, rotor), you may be able to receive more channels, depending on their locations and distances. (Think of all those channels and free HD, and you can go tell the cable/satellite companies to go stick it!).




I'm not totally averse to replacing the 300-ohms flat cable with the coaxial I'm just a little bit apprehensive of whether it's something I'll be able to do. I just went to RadioShack to get the transformer to try Sregener's solution and decided to ask about the outdoor balan which barrygordon alluded to in his post and the guy at Radioshack had no idea what I was talking about. If it's something that just entails unplugging/unscrewing/unhinging the old cable and replacing it with the balan/coaxial cable I'd be more than happy to try it.


Any input or instructions or links to a site that can guide me would certainly be appreciated.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tibidip* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm not totally averse to replacing the 300-ohms flat cable with the coaxial I'm just a little bit apprehensive of whether it's something I'll be able to do. I just went to RadioShack to get the transformer to try Sregener's solution and decided to ask about the outdoor balan which barrygordon alluded to in his post and the guy at Radioshack had no idea what I was talking about. If it's something that just entails unplugging/unscrewing/unhinging the old cable and replacing it with the balan/coaxial cable I'd be more than happy to try it.
> 
> 
> Any input or instructions or links to a site that can guide me would certainly be appreciated.



You can check out Channel Master's 45 page"Off-Air Antenna Installation Guide":
http://www.channelmaster.com/pdf/AntInstallGuide.pdf 


The on-line version (see Chapter 5) is here:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmig.htm


----------



## barrygordon

Go to a different Radio Shack. That guy was Radio Shack Challenged if he did not know what a 300 to 75 ohm Balun was. Try Radio Shack part # 15-1230.


It involves only the use of a screw driver and most times the antenna connection point (where the 300 ohm lead was attached), has wing nuts.


At the antenna you will detac the 300 ohm lead and attach the Balun/adapter. The other end of the Balun has an F screw connection which will match the connector on the end of the cable. Now you have to attach the cable to the house so it does not fly in the wind and run it to the room you want it to end up in.


The hardest part of the whole job is attaching the wire to the house or fishing it through the walls to get to where you want it to be without the Wife going ballistic.


----------



## holl_ands

sregener's R-S link must be messed up.

It is for a Balun which connects downlead coax to a TV that only has twin screw terminals.

Surely your HDTV has a coax input and would not need this type Balun.


Here's the R-S 15-1230 75 to 300-ohm Balun for connecting downlead to TV Antenna:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 


BTW: The loss in the Channel Master Balun from Fry's is better by about a dB:
http://shop3.outpost.com/product/257...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG 


=================================================

Could you describe or post a picture of the kind of antenna you have?

As mentioned earlier, you probably want a combination VHF/UHF antenna, although most of the DTV stations today are still on UHF.


----------



## tibidip




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> sregener's R-S link must be messed up.
> 
> It is for a Balun which connects downlead coax to a TV that only has twin screw terminals.
> 
> Surely your HDTV has a coax input and would not need this type Balun.
> 
> 
> Here's the R-S 15-1230 75 to 300-ohm Balun for connecting downlead to TV Antenna:
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search
> 
> 
> BTW: The loss in the Channel Master Balun from Fry's is better by about a dB:
> http://shop3.outpost.com/product/257...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG
> 
> 
> =================================================
> 
> Could you describe or post a picture of the kind of antenna you have?
> 
> As mentioned earlier, you probably want a combination VHF/UHF antenna, although most of the DTV stations today are still on UHF.






You guys are great! I'm learning so much here. As far as the antenna i'm not sure what brand/type for that matter because as I said it's been in the house since I moved in, at least eight years old but it resembles something like this

http://www.av-outlet.com/media/TV38.jpg 


I think this weekend I'm going to try to install the outdoor balun and run the coaxial cable.


----------



## Rammitinski

If you do need a new antenna, it might be a wise to look into where all your channels might end up after the analog shutoff in 3 years. They most likely won't be in the low/VHF range, but some (like two by me here in Chicago are supposed to) might still be in the high/VHF range, and this will factor into your antenna choice.


----------



## tibidip




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you do need a new antenna, it might be a wise to look into where all your channels might end up after the analog shutoff in 3 years. They most likely won't be in the low/VHF range, but some (like two by me here in Chicago are supposed to) might still be in the high/VHF range, and this will factor into your antenna choice.




That's good to know. I didn't even think of that - I'll keep that in mind.


----------



## jayfore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you do need a new antenna, it might be a wise to look into where all your channels might end up after the analog shutoff in 3 years. They most likely won't be in the low/VHF range, but some (like two by me here in Chicago are supposed to) might still be in the high/VHF range, and this will factor into your antenna choice.



Where would one look into this? A central source, or would you have to check w/ each individual station?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> sregener's R-S link must be messed up.
> 
> It is for a Balun which connects downlead coax to a TV that only has twin screw terminals.



Ummm. He's got 300-Ohm downlead. That's aka twinlead. He screws the two pieces into the screws and plugs the 75-ohm connector into his STB or TV. How's my link messed up? Your link leads to a product which not only requires a separate piece of coax from the transformer to the set, but also requires him to fashion a connector to keep the two wires of 300-Ohm connected to the transformer.


300-Ohm is great compared to 75-Ohm for transmission - much less loss than RG-6. But RG-6 is less impacted by noise and interference. But if you're going to try things out, better to try the $5 solution first and see if it works before spending a lot of $$$ and time to replace cables.


If the antenna looks like the one he's listed, he should have no problem with reception under most conditions.


----------



## tibidip




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ummm. He's got 300-Ohm downlead. That's aka twinlead. He screws the two pieces into the screws and plugs the 75-ohm connector into his STB or TV. How's my link messed up? Your link leads to a product which not only requires a separate piece of coax from the transformer to the set, but also requires him to fashion a connector to keep the two wires of 300-Ohm connected to the transformer.
> 
> 
> 300-Ohm is great compared to 75-Ohm for transmission - much less loss than RG-6. But RG-6 is less impacted by noise and interference. But if you're going to try things out, better to try the $5 solution first and see if it works before spending a lot of $$$ and time to replace cables.
> 
> 
> If the antenna looks like the one he's listed, he should have no problem with reception under most conditions.




Sregener your solution worked like a charm. I thank you very much. I'll probably stick with this unless, as I said the reception becomes spotty in the future, but for now it's clear as water.


One question what tool would you use to strip a 300-ohm flat wire in order to possibly extend it because it's too short and the cable is fraying a bit?


----------



## tibidip




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> sregener's R-S link must be messed up.
> 
> It is for a Balun which connects downlead coax to a TV that only has twin screw terminals.
> 
> Surely your HDTV has a coax input and would not need this type Balun.
> 
> 
> Here's the R-S 15-1230 75 to 300-ohm Balun for connecting downlead to TV Antenna:
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search
> 
> 
> BTW: The loss in the Channel Master Balun from Fry's is better by about a dB:
> http://shop3.outpost.com/product/257...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG
> 
> 
> =================================================
> 
> Could you describe or post a picture of the kind of antenna you have?
> 
> As mentioned earlier, you probably want a combination VHF/UHF antenna, although most of the DTV stations today are still on UHF.




Just follow this link http://homepage.mac.com/gregmac1/PhotoAlbum47.html to see the type of antenna that I have (click on an image to get a better view).


----------



## hdtvluvr

I've attached the pdf file. The tentative channel designation (last column) will be the channel # in 2009.


Anyone looking at an antenna should probably look at there stations to be sure they are all staying UHF before investing in a UHF only solution.

 

Digital Channel Designations.pdf 115.0234375k . file


----------



## mterzich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hdtvluvr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've attached the pdf file. The tentative channel designation (last column) will be the channel # in 2009.
> 
> 
> Anyone looking at an antenna should probably look at there stations to be sure they are all staying UHF before investing in a UHF only solution.



The pdf doesn't work so I don't know what the document says. My understanding is that the government is taking back all the VHF channels for emergency services in 2009.


----------



## jayfore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mterzich* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The pdf doesn't work so I don't know what the document says. My understanding is that the government is taking back all the VHF channels for emergency services in 2009.



PDF opens OK for me... Thanks for posting!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hdtvluvr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyone looking at an antenna should probably look at there stations to be sure they are all staying UHF before investing in a UHF only solution.



I figure that, if necessary, I can add a hi-VHF antenna in 2009. However, my 91XG does a passable job at hi-VHF reception all by itself, and will probably work fine. Many others will find that their UHF antennas do a good enough job to not have to worry about it. (Note that this doesn't apply to the CM7775, which blocks VHF.)


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mterzich* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My understanding is that the government is taking back all the VHF channels for emergency services in 2009.



False. Originally, that was the plan, but it changed years ago. Then they were going to sell off 2-6, but the stations balked and the DTV core is defined as channels 2-51.


----------



## hdtvluvr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mterzich* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My understanding is that the government is taking back all the VHF channels for emergency services in 2009.



I've heard this also. However, an engineer at one of my local stations confirmed they will be going back to channel 5 with digitall when analog goes dark.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I figure that, if necessary, I can add a hi-VHF antenna in 2009. However, my 91XG does a passable job at hi-VHF reception all by itself, and will probably work fine. Many others will find that their UHF antennas do a good enough job to not have to worry about it. (Note that this doesn't apply to the CM7775, which blocks VHF.)



You should probably mention that this may require a rotor for off-axis aiming. UHF yagi/corner reflectors are only decent for high vhf off-axis and "through the back" in my experience. Bowtie antennas do seem to have usable gain on-axis for high vhf.


----------



## mterzich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> False. Originally, that was the plan, but it changed years ago. Then they were going to sell off 2-6, but the stations balked and the DTV core is defined as channels 2-51.



Does that mean DTV is giving back 52-69 when that occurs?


The US has it very good compared to the UK. They lost their VHF channels quite a few years ago and have been broadcasting both analog and digital (they went very digital in the late 90s) on the UHF band spectrum (8 MHz bands instead of 6 MHz) and only have channels 21-69. They want to start OTA HD transmissions but do not even have one 8 MHz band available and the government wants the analog channels back when analog transmission ceases in 2012.


----------



## SnellKrell

Yes!


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You should probably mention that this may require a rotor for off-axis aiming. UHF yagi/corner reflectors are only decent for high vhf off-axis and "through the back" in my experience. Bowtie antennas do seem to have usable gain on-axis for high vhf.



That's because of the length of the antenna when turned sideways, or the longer elements being in the forefront when backwards. I know that even with my little Silver Sensor, I can receive high/VHF channels not too bad that way at times. But I think the distance and signal strength make a difference, too.


----------



## Ahzroe

Direct Tv just did an off air antenna install job at my parents house. I don't know the name of the antenna, but it is a small directional outdoor antenna that looks like a thick saucer. According to antennaweb.org, the house needs a light green antenna (small directional antenna with a pre-amp) to get the locals. The antenna alone is not getting any signals. I am considering going to Radio Shack in the morning and hooking up a pre-amp. This is where I am lost. What is a recommended pre-amp at Radio Shack? Do I just hook it up inside near the input of the HD DVR for it to function properly? Do you think I am on the right path of even trying this out? For what it is worth, the stations are in the Huntsville, AL area and my parents live in Decatur, AL (35603).


No pun intended, but thanks for any direction you can give me on this subject!!


----------



## jayfore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ahzroe* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Direct Tv just did an off air antenna install job at my parents house. I don't know the name of the antenna, but it is a small directional outdoor antenna that looks like a thick saucer. According to antennaweb.org, the house needs a light green antenna (small directional antenna with a pre-amp) to get the locals. The antenna alone is not getting any signals. I am considering going to Radio Shack in the morning and hooking up a pre-amp. This is where I am lost. What is a recommended pre-amp at Radio Shack? Do I just hook it up inside near the input of the HD DVR for it to function properly? Do you think I am on the right path of even trying this out? For what it is worth, the stations are in the Huntsville, AL area and my parents live in Decatur, AL (35603).
> 
> 
> No pun intended, but thanks for any direction you can give me on this subject!!



If you need an amp, how do you know? What will your reception look like before and after amplification? Will it look grainy before, and more crisp after? I am only 10 miles away from my stations and just bought a $20 (unamplified) Radio Shack antenna. My local stations come in pretty good, but they are not absolute perfection -- they are often grainy, and fonts don't look as perfect and crisp as, say, they would on a computer. Is this about as good as it gets for TV? I thought HD broadcasts would be 100% perfection, but my knowledge is obviously lacking. Thanks for any insights!


----------



## Ahzroe

Before amplication, I am not getting any signal. So ANY reception is what I am seeking! In your case, I think a lot depends on the quality of the specific broadcast.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tibidip* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just follow this link http://homepage.mac.com/gregmac1/PhotoAlbum47.html to see the type of antenna that I have (click on an image to get a better view).



Yup, it's a combination VHF/UHF antenna, but it's optimized more for VHF than UHF.

The UHF section is the big fat bowtie element, the two small directors and some reflector elements.


You'll just have to see if UHF reception is adequate....

If not, you could consider an upgrade to a more powerful UHF or VHF/UHF combo antenna.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hdtvluvr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've attached the pdf file. The tentative channel designation (last column) will be the channel # in 2009.
> 
> 
> Anyone looking at an antenna should probably look at there stations to be sure they are all staying UHF before investing in a UHF only solution.



Here is the DTV Channel Election List, conveniently ordered by City/State:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...-05-1743A2.pdf


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ahzroe* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Direct Tv just did an off air antenna install job at my parents house. I don't know the name of the antenna, but it is a small directional outdoor antenna that looks like a thick saucer.



Have them call DirecTV and insist they come back and put up a better antenna. There's no excuse for using that antenna.


A preamp is likely to cause more problems than it solves for you with that antenna. A better choice would be to buy a Channel Master 4221 and put that up. I've seen AntennasDirect DB2's on the J-mount poles, and that would probably work great, too, though it is a little more expensive.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jayfore* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My local stations come in pretty good, but they are not absolute perfection -- they are often grainy, and fonts don't look as perfect and crisp as, say, they would on a computer. Is this about as good as it gets for TV? I thought HD broadcasts would be 100% perfection, but my knowledge is obviously lacking.



Picture quality will vary by program source and station. Likely you're looking at upconverted SD when it looks grainy or not crisp.


HD isn't 100% perfection. It's compressed using a lossy format, and often decompressed and recompressed at the station before being sent to you. Still, it can be jaw-dropping when it's done right.


----------



## Ahzroe




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Have them call DirecTV and insist they come back and put up a better antenna. There's no excuse for using that antenna.
> 
> 
> A preamp is likely to cause more problems than it solves for you with that antenna. A better choice would be to buy a Channel Master 4221 and put that up. I've seen AntennasDirect DB2's on the J-mount poles, and that would probably work great, too, though it is a little more expensive.



Time is important here. I leave tomorrow and I won't be back for a few months. So if a preamp is not recommended, is there an antenna I can buy at Radio Shack (15-2160?) that might have a good chance of working? Also, if I do go with a different antenna, can I use the same mount the installers used?


----------



## Dan Kolton

I'm within about 6 miles of the towers I want to receive, and their directions vary from 66 to 341 degrees. I can receive analogue broadcast almost on a paper clip. HDTV is another thing entirely. I use a Silver Sensor, and it works ok in the winter when there are no leaves on the trees, unless it's windy. From day to day, the best aim for a given station will vary as much as 180 degrees, and with leaves on the trees, HDTV is just impossible. I've tried the antenna in the attic, and also, outdoors, but at ground level. There is no discernable improvement for either. My house is surrounded with very tall and close-by trees. There is no way I'd get high enough, even with a tower, without putting a red light on top to warn aircraft. I've thought about a CM 4221 or 4228 in the attic to see whether tighter directionality might help, but I'd need a rotator, and I'm not certain the Silver Sensor hasn't just as tight an angle of reception. Any ideas (other than cable)?


----------



## Morpheus_Rising




> Quote:
> I would try the Winegard Pr-5030 using one of your CM 7777's set for VHF input and your XG-91 with the other CM 7777 set to UHF input. Then combine both antennas together using a Winegard CS-7750. This to be done inside after the CM7777's power supplies. By doing so you can now eliminate your A/B switch.



I looked at Winegard's VHF antennas, the best two are the PR-5030 and the HD-4053P. The PR-5030 is both VHF and FM which is good, but it has a range of 30 miles. The HD-4053P is VHF only (no FM), has a longer range of 50 miles, more elements (24 elements vs the PR-5030's 17 elements) and is shorter in length (111" vs the PR-5030's 119.5"). Of these two, I'm leaning toward the HD-4053P. Between Antenna's Direct V4 and V21 antennas, I'm leaning toward the V21. It seems most antennas are either VHF/UHF antennas or UHF only antennas. There's very few VHF only antennas.


As for the combiner, my system is hardwired inside the wall so I can't use it. I have one of those gray utility boxes in the wall where the underground PVC pipe enters the house bringing the antenna cables in. From there the coax cables goes to another, larger utility box (one for antenna one and a second box for antenna two). The main antenna coax cable enters the box and goes directly to a coax grounding block. From there it goes to the 7777 pre-amp's power supply box and the output of that goes to Channel Master's powered coax distribution box (1 in, 8 out). Those 8 output lines leave the utility box and run in wall to 2 wall outlets. Each outlet has 4 coax lines (with a 4 coax connector wall plate). One outlet is behind my computer desk and the other outlet is behind the TV audio-video table. So I have Antenna one (one outlet, 4 lines) behind my computer desk, a second outlet (4 lines) behind the TV table. The same goes for Antenna two, and the same goes for TV cable. In the end I have 24 coax lines - and it was a major pain stringing all of that inside the walls. That's why I need an A/b switch. For each TV tuner I have a coax cable from the Antenna one wall plate, and another coax cable from the Antenna two wall plate going to the A/B switch with its output coax cable going to the TV tuner. I need an A/B switch for every TV tuner (which is a pain). If I had thought of using a combiner in the planning stages, I could have elminated the A/B switches and had a better system. It's too late now to change it.


While checking out information for VHF antennas, I came across an item that helps with antenna mast wind load. It's called a TB-105 support bearing. I want to order one and last night I did several google searchs for more information and which websites I can order it from. I found very little information on it and about 4 websites that you can order it from. I haven't checked these websites out yet, but they may not shipped to Canada.


----------



## DougRuss

Few VHF Only Antennas in this Link( maybe you've already seen?):
Stark Electronics 


The Support Bearing Setup if for use with a Rotor Setup, you can find it here also:

((( CLICK ))))


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ahzroe* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Time is important here. I leave tomorrow and I won't be back for a few months. So if a preamp is not recommended, is there an antenna I can buy at Radio Shack (15-2160?) that might have a good chance of working? Also, if I do go with a different antenna, can I use the same mount the installers used?



That antenna is worlds better amd ought to work. Without seeing the mount, I have no idea if it is strong enough or able to get the antenna far enough away from the dish.


----------



## Morpheus_Rising

Yeah, I checked out Stark Electronics. I would like to order the TB-105 from them, but I don't know if they ship to Canada.


----------



## Ahzroe




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That antenna is worlds better amd ought to work. Without seeing the mount, I have no idea if it is strong enough or able to get the antenna far enough away from the dish.



Well I ran out to Radio Shack and tried it. Hooked it up in the living room and it picked up everything it was suppose to. Worked out great!


----------



## TV Trey

Antennacraft makes several VHF/FM models.


----------



## jayfore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Picture quality will vary by program source and station. Likely you're looking at upconverted SD when it looks grainy or not crisp.
> 
> 
> HD isn't 100% perfection. It's compressed using a lossy format, and often decompressed and recompressed at the station before being sent to you. Still, it can be jaw-dropping when it's done right.



Ok, so it sounds like I'm seeing what I should be seeing then... Thanks! It's definitely a huge improvement over what most of my cable channels look like on this new 50" TV.


----------



## newsposter

general comment: if you have directv (not sure it's true for other providers), locals SD OTA are better than the satellite SD locals. I record everything possible OTA, regardless of SD/HD.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Morpheus_Rising* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I looked at Winegard's VHF antennas, the best two are the PR-5030 and the HD-4053P. The PR-5030 is both VHF and FM which is good, but it has a range of 30 miles. The HD-4053P is VHF only (no FM), has a longer range of 50 miles, more elements (24 elements vs the PR-5030's 17 elements) and is shorter in length (111" vs the PR-5030's 119.5"). Of these two, I'm leaning toward the HD-4053P. Between Antenna's Direct V4 and V21 antennas, I'm leaning toward the V21. It seems most antennas are either VHF/UHF antennas or UHF only antennas. There's very few VHF only antennas.



Take the milage figures with a grain of salt. The Winegard HD-4053 has about 2dB more gain than the 5030. They can both work at 100 miles if the terrain is flat, or fail at 30 miles if the line-of-sight is severely obstructed. The gain of your old Radio Shack 210 was probably somewhere in between the two.


Do you know if your lowband VHF analog stations will be moving their digital transmissions down to lowband when the transition is complete? If not, then you should consider a Blonder Tongue BTY-LP-HB for channels 7-13. . If you do need the lowband channels as well, you should consider Blonder Tongue's BTY-LP-BB. Solid Signal has them for about $280 and $380, respectively. I found them listed for less than that at a few websites, but they appeared to be commercial distributors who might not sell them retail. You'd have to check, yourself.


If I recall correctly, the BTY-LP-BB has a flat gain of about 9dB over isotropic, and the BTY-LP-HB might be up around 12 or 13dB of gain, but Blonder-Tongue gain figures are honest figures, their antennas are rugged as hell, and contrary to the implications of some of their published specs, the BB model is "flat" over the entire band from 54 to 216Mz, including FM.


I'm not sure about this, but I think elements used in the Winegard HD series antennas are maybe two gauges thicker than in the PR series. You might call Winegard to try to confirm this. If they are thicker, that would be reason enough to favor the HD series for an antenna going up on a tower.


The HD series also uses a more reliable element locking attachment and in fact, I have to reset a lot of elements on PR-series VHF antennas when the wind "unlatches" the rear elements. If they blow forward and touch a few elements ahead of them, they screw up the lowband reception severely.


How close are your nearest, full powered stations? If they are more than 20 miles away, you could benefit by putting a low-gain preamp right near the antenna, but if any are nearby, you might need to notch down the offending channel, which does take a little expertise.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That would work only if the VHF/UHF Joiner and the JoinTenna have DC PASS capability on the ports going to the Preamp.
> 
> 
> Does anyone know if the JoinTenna has DC PASS capability on one or both ports???
> 
> You can check with a Volt-Ohm-Meter...



I just checked a couple of 0585-2 jointennas (for channels 30-50) and they each had light-gauge inductor coils on the center conductor paths that measured less than one ohm of DC resistance and would have no trouble carrying preamplifier current, and the resistance between the center conductor and ground was over 2Meg, so the only important application detail would be to put a DC block on the input that doesn't have a preamplifier on it.


Some U/V joiners pass power on the V leg and others on the U, but I don't think I've seen one where it was marked on the outside of the case that it passed on both.


----------



## Hoopnoop

I just want to think everyone in this thread for helping me with my antenna installation! I am about 25 miles west of DC and am about 45 miles southwest of Baltimore (they are about 40 degrees difference). Thanks to the advice in this forum, I am using a CM 4221 that is pointed midway between DC and Baltimore. I also added a CM 3041 pre-amp that I bought at Lowes. I have the antenna split to 3 separate receivers (a Sony HDD500 and two Voom receivers). I now get all the DC stations very solid and also get the Baltimore stations solid with occasional breakups.


It turns out that the 4221 had sufficiently wide coverage to capture the two cities despite being 40 degrees apart (I understand that the 4228 is much more directional). Also, the 3041 made a huge difference in terms of both capturing the further Baltimore stations and also getting a strong lock on the DC stations when the antenna is pointed in between the two locations. I used the 3041 primarily because I was somewhat skeptical that the pre-amp would help so I wanted to be able to return it easily. It turned out to be a big help!


----------



## Morpheus_Rising

My top 2 choices are: the HD-4053P from Winegard, and the V21 from Antennas Direct. I sent Antennas Direct an email asking questions about the V21 and V4 and I got the response today.


"The V21 is a VHF/UHF antenna has 11 UHF elements and 10 VHF elements and can do (/should do) FM. The V21 has relatively high gain on the VHF band, it is not as effective on the UHF band. In receiving UHF it is only effective for up to about 25 miles; on VHF, 65 miles."


I was going to send Winegard an email about the HD-4053P. I did a google search for the Blonder Tongue's BTY-LP-BB. I found the Manufacturer's website (the only info they had was a pdf file on all their antennas). It looks like an interesting VHF antenna, I like they way that you can take another UHF antenna and mount it on the front of the BTY-LP-BB, turnning it into a VHF/UHF combo antenna. With the google search, I could find very little else on the BTY-LP-BB. No reviews, no other information, just about 3 websites that sell it ($345-$400US), which it expensive! I have no idea what its range is.


I checked AntennaCraft's website and found one VHF antenna that I liked, the CS1100. The stats are: 42 Elements, 180" Boom Length, and Extreme Deep Fringe (100+ Miles):

http://www.antennacraft.net/CS.htm 


It's very large at 180" (my Radio Shack antenna is 190" long). I preferred to get something smaller, around 120", so maybe the next antenna down, the CS900? These have the highest number of elements for a VHF antenna that I've seen. However, I have heard that AntennaCraft makes the Radio Shack antennas. I was not very impressed with the quality or performance of my Radio Shack antenna. (Also on a strong windy day, I had 3 of the large elements at the back of the antenna were pushed forward which meant getting someone to climb the tower and swing the elements back into place and relock.) So, I'm not sure about getting anything from AntennaCraft.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Morpheus_Rising* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My top 2 choices are: the HD-4053P from Winegard, and the V21 from Antennas Direct. I sent Antennas Direct an email asking questions about the V21 and V4 and I got the response today.
> 
> 
> "The V21 is a VHF/UHF antenna has 11 UHF elements and 10 VHF elements and can do (/should do) FM. The V21 has relatively high gain on the VHF band, it is not as effective on the UHF band. In receiving UHF it is only effective for up to about 25 miles; on VHF, 65 miles."
> 
> 
> I was going to send Winegard an email about the HD-4053P. I did a google search for the Blonder Tongue's BTY-LP-BB. I found the Manufacturer's website (the only info they had was a pdf file on all their antennas). It looks like an interesting VHF antenna, I like they way that you can take another UHF antenna and mount it on the front of the BTY-LP-BB, turnning it into a VHF/UHF combo antenna. With the google search, I could find very little else on the BTY-LP-BB. No reviews, no other information, just about 3 websites that sell it ($345-$400US), which it expensive! I have no idea what its range is.
> 
> 
> I checked AntennaCraft's website and found one VHF antenna that I liked, the CS1100. The stats are: 42 Elements, 180" Boom Length, and Extreme Deep Fringe (100+ Miles):
> 
> http://www.antennacraft.net/CS.htm
> 
> 
> It's very large at 180" (my Radio Shack antenna is 190" long). I preferred to get something smaller, around 120", so maybe the next antenna down, the CS900? These have the highest number of elements for a VHF antenna that I've seen. However, I have heard that AntennaCraft makes the Radio Shack antennas. I was not very impressed with the quality or performance of my Radio Shack antenna. (Also on a strong windy day, I had 3 of the large elements at the back of the antenna were pushed forward which meant getting someone to climb the tower and swing the elements back into place and relock.) So, I'm not sure about getting anything from AntennaCraft.



A very good quality VHF antenna is the Delhi available at Stark's.They're UPS shippable too.

http://www.starkelectronic.com/delhi.htm 


I've used the 4053P.Not too impressed.About equal to the 5030 and costs twice as much.


Do you really need Low-band 2-6?


----------



## Morpheus_Rising




> Quote:
> Do you really need Low-band 2-6?



Yes I do. I'm getting another XG-91 UHF antenna from Antennas Direct and I want a VHF (2-13) antenna for my second antenna.


----------



## TV Trey

Did you look at the Antennacraft 3BG22? It is a heavier duty antenna and also smaller in size. As far as Antennacraft making antennas for RS, you must keep in mind that the product is made to RS's specifications. Finally if you are not concerned about price, then Kathrien-Scala also makes an antenna for channels 2-13.


----------



## CommonSense

Hi there. New to the forum, and just got my first HD set (the Sony 40" Bravia XBR LCD). Love it so far, and have DirecTV scheduled to upgrade my SD TiVo to an HD version on Thursday. They'll also install an OTA antenna. I have some questions about OTA reception.


FYI, my location is Baltimore, MD 21224. This is a city location -- a row house among a sea of row houses -- less than two miles from downtown, and not far from a number of local towers (which sucks for FM DXing, which I also like to do at times).


I've toyed with feeding my FM antenna to the new HD TV and gotten pretty good results. The antenna I'm using is a monster -- it's the Antenna Performance APS-13. I can't post URLs yet, but Google "APS-13" and it's the first link that comes up.


It's great for FM, needless to say. It's tuned ONLY for FM, and is most definitely NOT a TV antenna, much less a UHF TV antenna. I don't intend to use this as my OTA HD antenna (I can't anyway -- I use it with a rotor for FM, and would be moving it around too often.) Still, it gets all Baltimore and nearly all Washington, DC DTV channels (from DC I can't get 20's HD signal if there is one, nor can I get MHz Networks no matter how hard I try). Occasionally Baltimore's 54 DTV signal drops out, but in general it's fine also. Oddly, it doesn't much matter what direction the antenna's pointing, probably because the antenna was never meant for TV in the first place.


My dish is located on the second floor deck, which puts it roughly 15 feet above the 82 feet above sea level altitude of my house (according to Google Earth, anyway) -- close to 100 feet above sea level. The APS-13 antenna is up on the roof, about 10 feet above the roof surface when you factor in the two five-foot masts, making the antenna itself roughly 115 feet above sea level.


I'd like to know what kind of reception I can expect from DirecTV's provided OTA antenna. It'll be at a lower height than the APS-13, but then again, it'll actually be made to pick up TV signals. It won't have the expansive line-of-sight reception the rooftop antenna has, either. But I'm wondering -- since the dish happens to to point very close to the same direction as Washington, DC, will this aid in picking up DC's HD signals?


Second, say I can get DC's HD signals OTA. Now, I know the DirecTV HD DVR lets you add your OTA signals into the program guide, making it available for recording programs, seeing program listings, etc. Does this box allow me to program in BOTH Baltimore and DC channels in the program guide -- i.e., whatever I can pick up, it'll list in the guide?


And third . . . can the OTA antenna that DirecTV installs "ride" on top of one of the coaxes currently running from the dish into the house? I'm not too keen on the idea of fishing yet ANOTHER cable down through the basement crawl space, into the finished portion of the basement, into the drywall, and up into the living room.


Thanks in advance for any help you can offer on the 4,396 questions above. Look forward to the answers!


----------



## newsposter

I can help with just a few things.


Yes you can diplex the OTA on the same lines as HDtivo.


yes there is a secondary selection for your other market to be included in the directv guide.


my guess is so close to the towers, you may need to crank down that signal a bit if you have problems. I dont know anything about directvs antenna though sorry. If you are getting it free, can't hurt to try it, but if it doesnt work, and you paid for it, be sure to get your money back.


You may have better luck with area specific questions in the HDTV thread for DC/Balt.


enjoy the hdtivo! I love my 2 units and the ota pic.


----------



## sregener

Well, I guess it's finally happened. Some 4,400 posts later, every question that can be asked has been asked and answered a dozen times. We can all go home now.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, I guess it's finally happened. Some 4,400 posts later, every question that can be asked has been asked and answered a dozen times. We can all go home now.



I think it would be nice if you could summarize them into a FAQ










So what kind of antenna do you recommend for me? I live in a house, on land, with windows, a roof, a spa, and even have some grass.... and dont want anything ugly


----------



## bernieoc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> or able to get the antenna far enough away from the dish.



Your 'far enough away from the dish' makes me consider my large ch 3 only antenna for Roanoke PBS. It sits above my dish - about 2 feet - and its elements extend over it. This is still my most troublesome channel ( my UHF antenna is about 4 feet above it)

I could move just the ch 3 antenna horizontally about 5 feet away to the other side of the chimney.

Is the dish possibly having a negative effect on the antenna? Worth a try?

Thanks,

Bernieoc


----------



## newsposter

Is it easy to move? If so, i'd try it. The other thing some people have trouble with is those rotating fans that stick out of the attic. Creates all sort of multipath havoc but only when the wind blows.


----------



## Dan Kolton

Quote:"I'm within about 6 miles of the towers I want to receive, and their directions vary from 66 to 341 degrees. I can receive analogue broadcast almost on a paper clip. HDTV is another thing entirely. I use a Silver Sensor, and it works ok in the winter when there are no leaves on the trees, unless it's windy. From day to day, the best aim for a given station will vary as much as 180 degrees, and with leaves on the trees, HDTV is just impossible. I've tried the antenna in the attic, and also, outdoors, but at ground level. There is no discernable improvement for either. My house is surrounded with very tall and close-by trees. There is no way I'd get high enough, even with a tower, without putting a red light on top to warn aircraft. I've thought about a CM 4221 or 4228 in the attic to see whether tighter directionality might help, but I'd need a rotator, and I'm not certain the Silver Sensor hasn't just as tight an angle of reception. Any ideas (other than cable)?"


Since I've not received any reply to this, I thought I'd try once more.


----------



## TotallyPreWired

Dan,

Give us your zip. From your description it sounds like a rotor or multi-antenna setup is needed.

....jc


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dan Kolton* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've thought about a CM 4221 or 4228 in the attic to see whether tighter directionality might help, but I'd need a rotator, and I'm not certain the Silver Sensor hasn't just as tight an angle of reception. Any ideas (other than cable)?"



Both the 4221 and 4228 are dramatically more directional than the SS. I'd give the 4228 on a rotor a try, either in your attic or outside.


However, wind can be a major problem with trees, as they can wildly vary the strength of the signal hitting any antenna, and the automatic gain control just can't keep up with the rapid changes.


Paradoxically, you may get better results with a simple bowtie from Radio Shack (runs about $5.) Their return policy makes it easy to try things out and see if it helps.


----------



## goldrich

Dan,


Your location is very similar to mine. Here in Indy I am located 3 miles from one of my local towers and 5-6 miles from most of the others. Four years ago I first tried the CM 4221 which was really bad with multipath. In fact, the multipath was so bad on one station that the receiver indicated "0" signal. I then tried the CM 4228 and that particular station came in just fine. These tests were with the antennas mounted outside, along with a rotor. I also tested them in the attic, but I never could find a location and azimuth where all stations would come in correctly. It can be done in the attic, but it can be very frustrating getting the right setup.


BTW, thanks to some strong tropospheric enhancement in the area earlier this morning, I enjoyed watching your local Detroit news on WJBK-DT 58 for about 30 minutes.


Steve


----------



## PinkSplice




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dan Kolton* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Quote:"I'm within about 6 miles of the towers I want to receive, and their directions vary from 66 to 341 degrees. I can receive analogue broadcast almost on a paper clip. HDTV is another thing entirely. I use a Silver Sensor, and it works ok in the winter when there are no leaves on the trees, unless it's windy. From day to day, the best aim for a given station will vary as much as 180 degrees, and with leaves on the trees, HDTV is just impossible. I've tried the antenna in the attic, and also, outdoors, but at ground level. There is no discernable improvement for either. My house is surrounded with very tall and close-by trees. There is no way I'd get high enough, even with a tower, without putting a red light on top to warn aircraft. I've thought about a CM 4221 or 4228 in the attic to see whether tighter directionality might help, but I'd need a rotator, and I'm not certain the Silver Sensor hasn't just as tight an angle of reception. Any ideas (other than cable)?"
> 
> 
> Since I've not received any reply to this, I thought I'd try once more.



I live surrounded by tall trees, a large multi-story structure cuts off about 20 degrees of my horizon, and there is a small ridge between myself and the majority of the STL towers (ranges 3-10 miles, spread out over 74 degrees of horizon). To get a constant signal above 75%, I had to mount an outside antenna. Welcome back to the 1950's. Please remember that the FCC mandated coverage assumes an antenna 9 meters/30 feet above ground . City grade coverage is assumed reception 90% of the time at 90% of locations, assuming an outdoor antenna at 30 feet. For those of you playing along on our home game, that's an 81% reliability...hence, dropouts.


You don't want to know about Grades A and B coverage. This is why antennaweb is so conservative. The true case for a maxed ERP at the xmtr is to flood the ground coverage, penetrating inside structures, and filling "holes".


I would say that the CM 4221, mounted outdoors, might be your best solution. At the close ranges for your towers, you might get enough signal off the back side of the antenna to allow you to dispense with a rotor (ah hate 'em). The Radio Shack U 75R ( http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=family )

is rediculously simple to mount, and might work well.


In any case, point the antenna at the "preponderance" of staions for your first try.


----------



## goldrich

Dan,


Update on CM 4221: I finally found the link I was looking for from HDTV Primer regarding multipath. I too found this to be true about this antenna. I live in a fairly wooded subdivision and deal with a lot of leaves.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4221.html 


Steve


----------



## Larry Crowell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jon_dahl* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does anyone know if I can use a combiner to combine the signal of two digital/HD antennas? I've used one in the past on analog signals but I'd like to get my signal up closer to 100% and thought I might give a this a try.



I'm no expert in this area but I'll tell you what has worked for me. I combined two RS 15-624 indoor UHF antennas, stacked vertically. Each is a dual bow-tie with a reflector, about 12" square. They have 300ohm twinlead though I don't know what their actual impedance is. First experiment: I connected each to a 300/75 converter and then into a signal splitter/combiner. This worked seemingly OK and was polarity sensitive, though not as much as I expected. Second experiment: I connected both antennas to the same 300/75 converter (accepting the impedance mismatch) and then directly to the coax line. This worked even better and was definitely polarity sensitive. Conclusions: Simpler is better, so I stayed with the second experiment. This is probably a very special case as the antennas were identical and the twinlead lengths were the same. I don't think the impedance mismatch mattered too much. Also, I don't think there is such a thing as a digital/HD antenna. They are simply just plain old UHF antennas.


----------



## AntAltMike

Here's something that worked for me today.


I was called to service the analog master antenna system for a residential unit on the sixth floor of a twelve story highrise building in McLean VA, about ten miles to the west of the Washington, DC tower cluster. This resident had been using the master antenna system for reception for her old, 25" TV, but now she just bought a plasma TV and decided to go with Cox cable, but the Cox technicians failed on two trips to figure out how to get their signal into this unit (it is post-wired for cable using cove moulding in the hallways) and in trying to figure out how to do it, they inadvertently disabled the master antenna signal, so this disgruntled resident had no TV signal at all.


Well, apparently, the master antenna input coax is now lost inside the wall, and so I told the manager to give notification to the unit above this one so I could fish a new wire down, but in the mean time, I took an 8 foot piece of coax, put an F connector on one end and stripped the other end to expose six inches of bare semiconductor on the other end, and tacked it to her living room wall, at about five feet above the floor. Using the cheap, internal tuner in the TV, she gets rock solid Washington, DC, NBC, ABC, CBS, Fox, WB and Univision, Baltimore WB (Catonsville, MD, actually, and it carries some geezer video service called "The Tube" on its .3 subchannel) and Falls Church Public TV, and tolerable Baltimore NBC and Fox (tiny glitches, here and there).


Not bad for an overlength coat hanger. And her unit is at the western end of the building, meaning that the Washington, DC signals travel through over 500 feet of highrise building. If they were all this easy, I'd have to find another way to make a living.


----------



## wbrack




AntAltMike said:


> Here's something that worked for me today.
> 
> 
> I took an 8 foot piece of coax, put an F connector on one end and stripped the other end to expose _*six inches of bare semiconductor [/*on the other end, and tacked it to her living room wall, at about five feet above the floor.
> 
> 
> That was some strange RG-6 coax You used there, I must have been the bare *semiconductor*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> that did the job.
> 
> 
> wb_


----------



## AntAltMike

Oops! _*center*conductor_

_"Someone offered me a hundred thousand dollars to go to bed with him. That's a tenth of an Indecent Proposal.


I'd be a *semi* Demi Moore.


Or a se-mi', De-mi'!"_


- Ellen Degeneris


----------



## KB9KXH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, I guess it's finally happened. Some 4,400 posts later, every question that can be asked has been asked and answered a dozen times. We can all go home now.



Not so fast, i have a problem no ones asked yet. I subscribed with the power company for some of their "free electrons" but they keep charging me. anyone ran into this before?


----------



## AntAltMike

I never understood whether the "oxygen free" copper conductors in Monster Cables were free of oxygen, or if they gave you the oxygen without charging any extra for it.

_"You buy the Stars, the holes are free!"_


- The Wizard Of Oatz, who makes the holes in the middle of Kellog's, Lucky Stars, the, "toasted oat cereal with the hole in the middle and the sugar on top".


----------



## Morpheus_Rising

I liked AntennaCraft's CS1100 antenna, however because of its size, it is not UPS shippable. I have decided not to get that one. So the next one down is the CS900 (120" long, 33 elements, range 80-90 miles). I then checked Wade-Antenna and looked at the VIP-306SR (148.5" long) and the VIP-307SR (194" long).

http://www.wade-antenna.com/VHF-FMantennas.htm 


However, after checking all over their website, there is almost no information on these 2 antennas (just what is listed on the link above). Also it looks like you can't order from them directly, you have to find a dealer. I need to do more reading on these 2 antennas and find where I can order them from.


So, I have it down to these 3 antennas. The AntennaCraft CS900, I can order that one from a website/company in BC. As for the 2 Wade antennas, there right here in Ontario, so I'm hoping I can order them from someplace in Ontario.


----------



## Johnnycanal

So tonight when I came home my OTA setup on my D* H20 seems to have no signal...


I have a CM4338 bowtie up on a pole mounted to the gable end of the house. On Saturday I was getting 85% to 100% on the Baltimore stations 40 miles distant. I have a CM pre-amp, the CM7775. I switched to this from the Motorola I picked up at my local Circuit City.


Everything has worked great till now and I am stumped.










I unplugged the CM4338 and used the Terk set top hdtv antenna and picked up a signal so I am pretty sure its not the D* H20.


Could the pre-amp have failed?? Thanks, Sean


----------



## Konrad2

> do you see any interference/intermod effects from the local Toledo stations?


What does intermod look like? Is there an example online?


----------



## Konrad2

> I think the stacked bowtie design is wonderful for people who need high gain and

> a relatively wide angle of acceptance. This is almost always the case in attics.


Why would attics need a relatively wide angle of acceptance?


} Bowtie designs work better in attics than yagis.


Why?


----------



## Konrad2

In message 2433, Bob Chase of KHWB-TV writes:


> This phenomenon is called differential gain error because the antenna has

> different gain on different frequencies within the channel.


Is this problem about the same regardless of transmission frequency?

That is, would the magnitude of the problem be the same for channel 2

and channel 51?


> Every antenna has it, some worse than others.


Is data on this available somewhere on the FCC website, or would we

have to ask an engineer at each nearby station?


> It is hard for a DTV tuner to put this back together because there is not

> enough equalization available to reassemble the ATSC data. If we were

> looking at a spectrum analyzer the signal would have huge notches in it

> like the worst multi-path you ever saw.


Are there artifacts of this in a NTSC picture?


What would symptoms be for ATSC tuners? Inability to hold onto a lock?

Dropped packets?


Do some ATSC tuners (perhaps newer generation) do a better job than others?

Perhaps some have more equalization available than others?


> My bet is your are quite correct in that low gain antennas will out perform

> the high gain ones.


Because?


Would one type of receiving antenna (bowtie, Yagi-Uda, parabolic, log-periodic, ...)

be better than another?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> > I think the stacked bowtie design is wonderful for people who need high gain and
> 
> > a relatively wide angle of acceptance. This is almost always the case in attics.
> 
> 
> Why would attics need a relatively wide angle of acceptance?
> 
> 
> } Bowtie designs work better in attics than yagis.
> 
> 
> Why?



1. An 8-Bay antennas is much more compact than a Yagi with more or less equivalent gain and front/back ratio.

That means it has much more flexibility to be mounted in a favorable location in the attic and can even be used

with a 360-degree rotator to tweak sidelobe nulls towards undesired multipath and interference.


2. High above the roof, static multipath patterns are found:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html 

Attics have lots of nearby objects that cause even more complex multipath reflections.

An 8-Bay antenna has many receiving elements distributed in space.

This means that some of the elements may be in signal maxima, while others are in minima. Big advantage for the 8-Bay.


3. I would expect that a long Yagi antenna is adversely perturbed by the nearby attic structures

more than the 8-Bay, although I haven't seen any NEC simulations on this aspect.


==================================================

An antenna with a wide degree of acceptance is an entirely separate issue, unrelated to whether it is located in the attic or not.

In general, a wide degree of acceptance also means more interference and multipath.

The very wide beamwidth of the 4-Bay antenna is only an advantage when arrival directions are more than

about 15 degrees apart (and less than about 60 degrees).

However, the 4-Bay is very inexpensive and would be my first choice for attic use where the additional gain of the 8-Bay is not needed.


----------



## Konrad2

> An 8-Bay antenna has many receiving elements distributed in space.

> This means that some of the elements may be in signal maxima, while

> others are in minima. Big advantage for the 8-Bay.


[ pseudo url due to 5 post restriction ]

hdtvprimer

ANTENNAS

types.html


says:


The formula for the aperture area of any TV antenna is

A=Gl^2/4p

where l is the wavelength and G is the gain factor over an isotropic

antenna (not dB).


(I don't see an explanation for what p is supposed to be. pi?)


So the aperture of the antenna depends on the gain, rather than the

architecture. For example, the 91XG is generally considered to have

about the same performance as an 8-bay bowtie. Thus it should have

about the same aperture.


The 8-bay bowtie would have an advantage in that if you have a gable

facing the transmitters, you could place the 8-bay very close to the

outside wall. This should decrease the reception of reflections

from within the attic. The Yagi-Uda's dipole must be well back from

the outside wall, which might admit more reflections? On the other

hand, if you have a very low pitched roof, the Yagi-Uda might have

the advantage?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So the aperture of the antenna depends on the gain, rather than the architecture. For example, the 91XG is generally considered to have
> 
> about the same performance as an 8-bay bowtie. Thus it should have
> 
> about the same aperture.
> 
> 
> The 8-bay bowtie would have an advantage in that if you have a gable
> 
> facing the transmitters, you could place the 8-bay very close to the
> 
> outside wall. This should decrease the reception of reflections
> 
> from within the attic. The Yagi-Uda's dipole must be well back from
> 
> the outside wall, which might admit more reflections? On the other
> 
> hand, if you have a very low pitched roof, the Yagi-Uda might have
> 
> the advantage?



The problem is multipath, not aperture. And there really is no big advantage to being closer to the outside wall, as all the losses occur in the materials, not in the free space behind it. In fact, since reflection strength diminishes exponentially with distance, being further from the walls may be an advantage. What happens is that all the metal in the attic (ducts, wires, nails, etc.) act as reflectors, bouncing signals around. Inevitably, some of those signals bounce towards the active elements of the antenna.


In the case of a yagi, which has exactly one active element, the multipath signals will hit the active element and be transmitted down the cable to the tuner. However, in a stack such as a bowtie antenna, you have multiple active elements, typically 4 or 8. What this does is create an additive effect for signals that strike all the elements simultaneously, and a negative effect on signals that strike them at different moments. Because the elements are arranged in a plane, only signals coming perpendicular to that plane experience the additive effect. Signals from above, below, or to the side hit different elements at different times, making them relatively weaker compared to the primary signal.


You could create the best of both worlds if you had a large enough attic by stacking four or eight yagis. This would get the better gain of the yagi combined with the multipath resistance of the vertical and horizontal stacks. I suspect that a stack of yagis would outperform a stack of bowties, even in an attic.


----------



## snackmasta

I just had a new roof installed and decided to upgrade from my RS VU-120XR antenna in the process. I initially decided to go with an XG91, as my main concern is receiving local HD channels that are all broadcast on the UHF band in my area. But, the more I read about the impending change in frequency of some stations to the VHF band in 2009, the more I'm thinking about going with a VHF/UHF combo antenna instead. But, looking at the gain comparisons on the infamous HDTV primer comparison (see link), the XG91 appears to have more gain in the VHF band than any VHF/UHF combo antenna tested, like the CM3018 for example. Does the XG91 provide good VHF reception? (I understand it's superb for UHF, which is what it's designed for.) If so, why isn't this fact promoted? The XG91 is relatively small and light compared to the top VHF/UHF combo antennas, which are significant advantages for aesthetics and wind shear. Thanks in advance.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The problem is multipath, not aperture. And there really is no big advantage to being closer to the outside wall, as all the losses occur in the materials, not in the free space behind it. In fact, since reflection strength diminishes exponentially with distance, being further from the walls may be an advantage. What happens is that all the metal in the attic (ducts, wires, nails, etc.) act as reflectors, bouncing signals around. Inevitably, some of those signals bounce towards the active elements of the antenna.
> 
> 
> In the case of a yagi, which has exactly one active element, the multipath signals will hit the active element and be transmitted down the cable to the tuner. However, in a stack such as a bowtie antenna, you have multiple active elements, typically 4 or 8. What this does is create an additive effect for signals that strike all the elements simultaneously, and a negative effect on signals that strike them at different moments. Because the elements are arranged in a plane, only signals coming perpendicular to that plane experience the additive effect. Signals from above, below, or to the side hit different elements at different times, making them relatively weaker compared to the primary signal.
> 
> 
> You could create the best of both worlds if you had a large enough attic by stacking four or eight yagis. This would get the better gain of the yagi combined with the multipath resistance of the vertical and horizontal stacks. I suspect that a stack of yagis would outperform a stack of bowties, even in an attic.



It doesn't matter that the directors in a Yagi aren't "driven" elements, they direct the signals that they recieve to the driven element much like if they were wired to it. The directivity of an antenna and the spatial extent of an antenna are directly related (as in by the Fourier transform of the aperture function): a big aperture means a small beamwidth. A Yagi has an oval effective aperture where the vertical and horizontal directivities are similar. A bowtie stack can have different horizontal and vertical directivities. The 4221 has much more vertical than horizontal directivity for instance. I expect that the worst attic multipath effects are mitigated mostly by vertical directivity which would explain why 4 bay high bowtie stacks work well in attics.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> *So the aperture of the antenna depends on the gain, rather than the
> 
> architecture*. For example, the 91XG is generally considered to have
> 
> about the same performance as an 8-bay bowtie. Thus it should have
> 
> about the same aperture.



You're on the right track. The stuff about multiple elements rejecting multipath from the other posters is totally unfounded. Just look at the patterns of the XG91 compared to the CM4228.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html 

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html 


The CM4228 has huge sidelobes at around 33 degrees off axis, while the XG91 has a much cleaner pattern. If the multipath just happens to be at 33 degrees, the XG91 will provide a better signal.


Ron


----------



## AntAltMike

Does anyone know if the HDTV Primer modeling even attempts to take into account the fact that off-axis signals hit the two 4-bay bowtie stacks in 8-bay bowtie antennas at varying phase relationships when it calculates its off-axis gains, or does it just linearly add the calculated signals from the two stacks? Enquiring minds want to know.


I doubt that vertical multipath is any more of a problem in an attic than it is on a flat roof with the antenna in the middle, which is the most common situation I have since I work primarily on highrise buildings with the antennas in the middle of flat roofs. If vertical reflections were a problem, I would commonly see ghosts on my analog signals, since visible ghost images are developed at unintended-to-intended signal ratios that would be too puny to impede digital signal quality. But when I do have a ghost image on a flat rooftop or in an attic, I never am able to minimize it by vertically raising or tilting the antenna, whereas I can affect its intensity by turning the antenna horizontally. I therefore doubt that vertical reflections are relatively significant either on a flat roof or in an attic.


When I installed a lot of residential UHF antennas five or six years ago, I always tried big Yagis first, mostly PR-9022s and 9032s, because they are what had worked well for me in analog applications, but like so many other people contributing to this forum, I came to realize that the junky-looking Channels Master multibay bowties consistently outperformed them in attic applications. I guess that the phase inefficiency of off-target signals is part of what makes them perform better than I would have expected, but that can't be all of the explanation, or even most of it, because I do a lot of installations in metropolitan situations where there are significant angles between the local towers, and theoretically, the horizontally stacked multibay antenna would be poorly suited to that application. The other factors are that the Channel Master bowties have a denser reflector, which helps the F/B ratio at lower frequencies, and the other thing is, since the extent to which the density of the irregular roofing materials varies abruptly, then of the four or eight unique signal streams that hit the separate, active elements of multi-bay bowties, the stronger ones are also the better quality ones.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> then of the four or eight unique signal streams that hit the separate, active elements of multi-bay bowties, the stronger ones are also the better quality ones.



That is exactly the wrong way to visualize how an antenna works. The correct way is to visualize the antenna as a composite with a specific current magnitude and current direction developed on each part of the physical structure. The magnitude and direction vector of these currents creates a wave-front aperture which is realized as the directional pattern of the antenna.


This is exactly what the modeling program does. It breaks the antenna up into segments (the more segments, the better the simulation), and computes the current distribution of each segment. Then the composite of all the segments is used to generate the directional pattern (and gain, which is just a function of directivity).

https://ewhdbks.mugu.navy.mil/ANTENNAS.HTM 

http://www.borg.com/~warrend/guru.html 


Ron


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *snackmasta* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But, the more I read about the impending change in frequency of some stations to the VHF band in 2009, the more I'm thinking about going with a VHF/UHF combo antenna instead. But, looking at the gain comparisons on the infamous HDTV primer comparison (see link), the XG91 appears to have more gain in the VHF band than any VHF/UHF combo antenna tested, like the CM3018 for example. Does the XG91 provide good VHF reception?



I think you're misreading the chart. I don't see any VHF gain numbers for the 91XG on that page.


I do, however, have a 91XG and it is connected to a 19dB VHF preamp. I had a Winegard HD8200P in the same location, with the same preamp, before I bought the 91XG, so I think I can do a fair comparison.


The 91XG has pretty good hi-VHF (channels 7-13) performance. It is not as good as the 8200P. It also needs to be "misaimed" for optimum results. In other words, if you're not using a rotor, I wouldn't use the 91XG for hi-VHF reception. I have a variety of stations in a variety of directions. The closest station (all of these are analog at this point), at 30 miles, comes in almost perfectly with the right aim. There's a hint of ghosting, and minimal impulse noise. I also get a station that is about 60 miles away, over rough terrain. It comes in fairly close to what the 8200P did, which is to say, it comes in on good days, and looks terrible on bad days. For stations beyond 60 miles, however, the 8200P was a far better antenna. On lo-VHF, the 91XG is terrible, even in the presences of fairly strong signals.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That is exactly the wrong way to visualize how an antenna works. The correct way is to visualize the antenna as a composite with a specific current magnitude and current direction developed on each part of the physical structure. The magnitude and direction vector of these currents creates a wave-front aperture which is realized as the directional pattern of the antenna....



Visualizing that each and every element in a multi-bay antenna receives the same electron stream as each and every other element in an attic installation is a very poor way to contemplate the likely effect of the unique signal streams that hit each element.


Antenna signals received by active antenna elements in attic antennas have been degraded by the reflective, refractive, diffusive and attenuative (whew!) characteristics of the shingles, rafters, joists, flashing, ductwork, and sometimes crates of Christmas decorations and old toys that block and degrade signals on the direct signal path and variously refract otherwise off-target signal streams back toward the reception elements.


I don't get calls from television stations to troubleshoot their off-air antenna reception problems because it is a lot easier for them to evaluate the performance of those antennas, since they are on 500' tall towers. But I did once get a call from one of the nuclear physicists who worked on the first hydrogen bomb to help him with his attic antenna reception because having a Ph D in physics didn't provide him with the means to mathematize the blur of signals pervading his attic.


I got him better reception with a 4 bay bowtie than he was getting with a big Yagi. Yet if the choice of antennas had been made simply based on the HDTV Primer models, then, unless each undesired signal reflection conveniently fell right in the nulls of the bowtie (which would be impossible in the real world, because the null angle decreases with frequency, yet the solid object off which the reflection is bounced stays in one place) he would have chosen the poorer performing Yagi. Welcome to the real world.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The stuff about multiple elements rejecting multipath from the other posters is totally unfounded.



I defer to your greater knowledge of antenna theory. I would appreciate it, however, if you would not only critique other's explanations, but also give your own for the real-world experiences of AltAntMike and many others. If theory says the yagi should be better (and gain-wise/aperature-wise, it *ought* to be) but practice shows that it is not, then there is a problem with the theory.


----------



## holl_ands

Theory is only as good as the ASSUMPTIONS.....


If you ASSUME free space without any multipath signal variations, then aperature is all you got to argue with....


GIGO....


----------



## dr1394

Hold on folks. I'm not refuting the consensus that colinear (bowtie) antennas work better in attics. I'm a firm believer in real world observations, and I fully appreciate the extensive experience of an antenna installer like AntAltMike.


However, the _explanations_ set forth as to why the colinear works better than the yagi were not based on sound antenna theory. As someone who knows a little bit about the subject, I'm compelled to post information that's based on real physics.


That's because there exists a balance between empirical methods and scientific methods. A good example of this is the development of long high gain yagis. Before the advent of computer simulation, yagis were designed by empirical methods. That is, cut and try. Attempts to design high gain yagis with that methodology failed miserably due to the sheer complexity. A long yagi for 400 MHz could have 30 elements. That's a lot of cutting and trying. It wasn't until the mid 1980's and the introduction of antenna modeling software (and PC's powerful enough to run that software), that long yagi designs started working satisfactorily. These days, arbitrarily long yagis can be designed limited only by their physical construction.


Getting back to the attic problem, I'd like to suggest that the real issue is detuning of the antenna due to the close proximity of it's surroundings. Yagis are a much higher "Q" antenna a suffer much more detuning than a lower "Q" structure like the colinear. I've noticed this effect on my own 50 MHz yagi which is surrounded by trees (a mixed blessing, since it does hide the beast from many neighbors). The close proximity of the trees lowers the resonant frequency by about 200 kHz and seems to negatively affect it's performance (compared to similar stations with antennas in the clear).











Ron


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Before the advent of computer simulation, yagis were designed by empirical methods.
> 
> 
> Yagis are a much higher "Q" antenna a suffer much more detuning than a lower "Q" structure like the colinear.



I was under the impression that the length and distance of the parasitic elements was established in an equation by Mr. Yagi, but perhaps my information was wrong.


I readily admit to having no idea what "Q" is.


----------



## AntAltMike

_"I have an I.Q. of 160."_

- Reggie Jackson

_"Out of what, a thousand?"_

-Mickey Rivers


----------



## Konrad2

holl_ands> Attics have lots of nearby objects that cause even more complex

holl_ands> multipath reflections.

holl_ands> An 8-Bay antenna has many receiving elements distributed in space.

holl_ands> This means that some of the elements may be in signal maxima, while

holl_ands> others are in minima. Big advantage for the 8-Bay.


dieter> So the aperture of the antenna depends on

dieter> the gain, rather than the architecture. For example, the 91XG is

dieter> generally considered to have

dieter> about the same performance as an 8-bay bowtie. Thus it should have

dieter> about the same aperture.


sregener> The problem is multipath, not aperture.


I was responding to holl_ands' theory that the 8-Bay has an advantage

because it has many receiving elements distributed in space.

A Yagi with the same gain will have the same size aperture, and thus

would also have part of its aperture in signal maxima and other parts

in signal minima.


I've been thinking about this issue, and have come to the conclusion

that what counts is the radiation pattern, not the architecture.


Of course, in the real world, the radiation pattern is not identical.

It may be that the side lobes and nulls are a significant difference,

especially indoors.


dieter> The 8-bay bowtie would have an advantage in that if you have a gable

dieter> facing the transmitters, you could place the 8-bay very close to the

dieter> outside wall. This should decrease the reception of reflections

dieter> from within the attic. The Yagi-Uda's dipole must be well back from

dieter> the outside wall, which might admit more reflections? On the other

dieter> hand, if you have a very low pitched roof, the Yagi-Uda might have

dieter> the advantage?


sregener> And there really is no big

sregener> advantage to being closer to the outside wall, as all the losses occur

sregener> in the materials, not in the free space behind it.


I'm not concerned with losses, I'm concerned with multipath.


If one has an attic with lots of ducts, wires, and such, one could think

of the attic as a pinball machine, with the incoming signal as the pinball.

If you place the antenna close to the incoming pinballs, and upgrade the

reflector to solid sheet metal (no worries about wind load indoors), there

should be less chance for a multipath pinball to reach the dipole(s).


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was under the impression that the length and distance of the parasitic elements was established in an equation by Mr. Yagi, but perhaps my information was wrong.
> 
> 
> I readily admit to having no idea what "Q" is.



Yagi invented the general structure (driven element, shorter director(s) and longer reflector), but the specific element lengths and spacings are just design variables. The major design parameters are forward gain, front to back ratio and bandwidth. Unfortunately, all three parameters cannot be optimized at the same time, so there are many possible designs.


In the late 1970's, the National Bureau of Standards (NBS) did some modeling (on a mainframe) along with test range measurements, and came up with set of recommended Yagi designs.

http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/general/pdf/451.pdf 


In the 1980's, when antenna modeling software became available for PC's, the first thing folks did was model the NBS designs. They quickly found that the NBS designs were less than optimum. For example, the modeling software showed that the trigonal reflector (Figure 2 in the linked pdf) was a waste of aluminum (increased the windload) and actually decreased the forward gain a few tenths of a dB. Quite a few commercial designs employed the trigonal relector (I had a couple of antennas for 144 MHz that used it), but you won't find it on any current designs (although I think some of the Funke TV antennas still use it).


The "Q" of an antenna is similar to the Q of an LC tuned circuit. It detemines the bandwidth of the antenna. Yagis are typically narrow bandwidth (10% of design frequency), so they are fairly high Q. Of course, TV yagis are tweaked to be wide bandwidth by using directors for the high end of the band coupled to a driven element and corner reflector for the low end of the band (in fact, I don't really think of TV Yagis as "true" Yagis).


A high-Q antenna is more more sensitive to detuning from surrounding objects. The 50 MHz antenna in the picture I posted (designed for high forward gain) is super high-Q, since it's bandwidth is only 400 kHz or less than 1% of the design frequency. It gets detuned from just getting wet from rain.


Ron


----------



## holl_ands

A classic Yagi-Uda (i.e. per textbooks or downloadable "Yagi" design software) is actually the optimized,

high gain configuration, with very narrow bandwidth....on the order of a few percent.

In 1954, Uda and Mushiake wrote the "Yagi-Uda Antenna" book, describing optimized designs for 2 and 3 element antenna.


By "detuning" the element lengths and especially spacing, the usable bandwidth can be pushed to maybe 5 to 10 percent:
http://www.cebik.com/yagi/3lyg2.html 

There are lots of other examples here:
http://www.cebik.com/radio.html 


But that's not even close to what is needed for TV bands....2:1 for UHF.

It helps to use fan dipole radiator elements (like CM-4221 and CM-4228),

which improves the Gain and VSWR throughout the UHF band, at the expense of max gain.

This might also explain why the 91XG is such a good performer compared to other long Yagi's.


Note that the W-G PR-4400 and PR-8800 employ simple dipole radiator elements--and sort of a triangular reflector element arrangement.


====================================================

High gain, narrow bandwidth Yagi-Uda and low gain, wide bandwith LPDA designs are described with fairly simple mathematical equations--

which are readily calculated using available spread sheets.


The advent of computers made possible exhaustive searches of many different element lengths and spacings, "Method of Moments" Integral Equation Analysis,

which evolved into NEC.

From this came the 50-year old designs we still use today, including multi-band quasi-LPDA's, wide bandwidth "Yagi's", the forward swept "fishbone" antenna and those multi-band interlaced monstrosities:
http://www.ece.uiuc.edu/alumni/su04/antennas.html 


Lately, "Genetic" search methods are being employed to search for a quasi-optimum arrangement of what look like random wire arrangements:
http://www.jemengineering.com/Geneti...%203-29-05.pdf 
http://ic.arc.nasa.gov/people/jlohn/Papers/ices2001.pdf 

Note that the optimized, single band "Yagi-Uda" had elements that did NOT uniformly decrease in length.


FYI: Check out the latest FM Quadrapole transmit antenna at NAB2006 (see jpg).


----------



## holl_ands

Note Cibrik's NEC studies for antennas with a reflector and multiple dipoles:
http://www.cebik.com/vhf/f432.html 
http://www.cebik.com/vhf/planar.html


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In the 1980's, when antenna modeling software became available for PC's, the first thing folks did was model the NBS designs. They quickly found that the NBS designs were less than optimum. For example, the modeling software showed that the trigonal reflector (Figure 2 in the linked pdf) was a waste of aluminum (increased the windload) and actually decreased the forward gain a few tenths of a dB. Quite a few commercial designs employed the trigonal relector (I had a couple of antennas for 144 MHz that used it), but you won't find it on any current designs (although I think some of the Funke TV antennas still use it).
> 
> 
> A high-Q antenna is more more sensitive to detuning from surrounding objects. The 50 MHz antenna in the picture I posted (designed for high forward gain) is super high-Q, since it's bandwidth is only 400 kHz or less than 1% of the design frequency. It gets detuned from just getting wet from rain.
> 
> 
> Ron



As I recall, the TRIGONAL reflector arrangement was reported to be ineffective for SHORT Yagi's,

where the author reported he could obtain even more gain by extending the Yagi element lengths:
http://www.qsl.net/kd4cga/antenn1.htm 
http://lists.contesting.com/archives.../msg00167.html 
http://www.rf.org/crms/projects/cushcraftboomer.html 

The TRIGONAL was also derided in the context of very large HF/VHF arrays due to the increase in windloading.


That tells me two things about the Yagi design: 1) it probably wasn't optimum to begin with and

2) it probably did not include detuning effects of nearby objects.


Since HF/VHF Arrays are so close to the ground plane, more realistic results would model the ground, house, (trees?) and tower. HF antenna systems can now be modeled to include the effects of not only the ground plane wires, but also the nearby terrain.


The effect of the nearby ground was included in this early (1928) antenna study that treated the TRIGONAL reflector separate from the Yagi-Uda:
http://www.dee.eng.ufba.br/trabalho/yagi/artigo.pdf 


Lessons learned from short Yagi's should not be directly applied to long VHF/UHF antennas,

where the TRIGONAL reflector has been reported to be significantly more effective than a single reflector element.

For example in the above cited NBS TN688, after optimization, the long (4.2-lamda) Yagi had 0.75 dB higher gain with the TRIGONAL reflector than with a simple rod reflector element. This was reportedly higher than any of the other tested reflector arrangements (planar, solid, parabola, corner)....unfortunately no details were included.


=====================================

Nonetheless, I still believe a Corner Reflector is effective, although at the expense of even higher wind loading.


Interested parties might want to peruse Cebik's designs for a Super Sized Corner Reflector:
http://www.cebik.com/vhf/corn1.html 
http://www.cebik.com/vhf/corner.html 

WOW, nearly as much gain as a Yagi with only one dipole driver element....

With less wind load than a parabolic and a LOT easier for a hobbist to build...


Darn, he didn't do a Corner-Yagi....or a Corner-Yagi-Bowtie...

Must have been left as exercises for the student.....


======================================

BTW: The models that Tom Nist assumed for NEC simulations in
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 

are given here: http://hometown.aol.com/kq6qv/SIMS/ 

The ants.xls file summarizes the detailed gain parameters on sheet 1 and the gain plots on sheet 2.


----------



## AntAltMike

The gain of Blonder Tongue cut to channel Yagis really drops off a cliff at the lower edge of the tuned channel, whereas it tapers off more gradually at the upper edge. In other words, if you use a channel 5 BT Yagi for channel 4 reception, or a channel 9 for channel 7, the picture will be unwatchably ugly due largely due to the lack of flatness across the channel, but you can often live with the performance of a channel 4 antenna will give when used for channel 5 or a channel 7 used for 9.


I have to make such, "replace or Kludge" choice several times a year since most customers of mine who still maintain their master antenna systems for the dozen or so residents who are too cheap to buy cable, are not eager to replace cut-to-channel antennas when one fails.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Johnnycanal* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...Could the pre-amp have failed?? Thanks, Sean



Yes, it could have failed. They are susceptible to surges, etc.


Is your coax and CM 4228 antenna grounded to the main electrical power ground for your house? It should be.


----------



## Johnnycanal




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes, it could have failed. They are susceptible to surges, etc.
> 
> 
> Is your coax and CM 4228 antenna grounded to the main electrical power ground for your house? It should be.



ground the coax and antenna??











yeah I have been meaning to do that... I actually am. Believe it or not there is no ground that I could find yet for this old house (160 years more or less)... I need to go and buy a rod and put it in myself...


Actually I found that it had corroded at the coax connection to the preamp. I plan on opening that box and seeing if I can fix or clean or replace the connection...


For right now I have my backup Motorola working. Not as good but works.


----------



## AntAltMike

The NEC requires that you ground both the antenna mast and the coax downlead as near as possible to the point at which it enters the building, and these grounds must be either directly connected to what is referred to as the ground electrode system or bonded to it. You can't just pound in a ground rod and ground to that.


Somewhere around here there are links to FAQs regarding the proper implementation of ground connections in conformity with the NEC.


That having been said, the likelihood that your preamp or electronics were damages by a surge that would otherwise have been suppressed by a conforming ground are slim at best.


A corroded preamp connection is a likely cause of your problem. If you have more time than money on your hands, and if you have an ammeter available, you can check to see if the preamp is drawing any current. I'd expect a working preamp to draw about 200 milliamps, but it will vary. Some draw less. Even if it is not drawing current, that won't tell you whether it is failing because of an open in the circuit or because the preamp has failed.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ... the likelihood that your preamp or electronics were damages by a surge that would otherwise have been suppressed by a conforming ground are slim at best.



Good point, AntAltMike, and I can see where my post may have looked like I though that's what caused the amp problem.


I was just curious if the antenna mast & coax were properly grounded, because the OP mentioned other things about grounding that made me think the D* installation might not have been done to code.


----------



## greywolf

Some links I keep in an old file include the following. There may be some that have died of old age. Always check local codes as they may differ from the NEC.

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarch...s~20020303.htm 

http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Installation/Grounding.htm 

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/...67#post3618667 


AVSforum member Signal posted the following helpful sites. Dish and antenna masts have the same grounding requirements.



National Electrical Code - Search for "dish" http://forums.nfpa.org:8081/necfaq/necsrch.htm 


The information there also applies to antenna grounding. In the 2002 code update, if a water pipe is used, it must be all metal and connected to the electrical panel within 5ft of where the pipe enters the building. The connection to the pipe from the lightning arrestor/ground block and from the antenna/dish mast must also be within 5ft of the pipe's entry.



Preventing Damage Due to Ground Potential Difference
http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm 


PSIHQ - Grounding Requirements
http://www.psihq.com/iread/strpgrnd.htm 


PolyPhaser Technical Information
http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_technical.asp 


Tower Page - see N1LO's GUYED TOWER TOPIC SUMMARY
http://www.qsl.net/n1lo/tower.htm


----------



## rbautch

I was planning to buy an Antennacraft Y5-2-6 antenna and channelmaster 7777 preamp as suggested here , but after reading a little more of this thread I'm not so sure. I only need to pick up a single VHF station (ch. 3) from 35 miles away, and I need an antenna that can be mounted in my attic. Stark Electronics did not have the Y5-2-6, but instead recommended the Winegard YA6260. Would a cut-to-channel antenna have a better chance at pulling in ch. 3 or should I give the Winegard a shot?


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbautch* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was planning to buy an Antennacraft Y5-2-6 antenna and channelmaster 7777 preamp as suggested here , but after reading a little more of this thread I'm not so sure. I only need to pick up a single VHF station (ch. 3) from 35 miles away, and I need an antenna that can be mounted in my attic. Stark Electronics did not have the Y5-2-6, but instead recommended the Winegard YA6260. Would a cut-to-channel antenna have a better chance at pulling in ch. 3 or should I give the Winegard a shot?



Have you visited the Chicage thread? They will commiserate with you over there. There are problems with an adjacent analog signal, local impulse noise, and transmitter power in general that make that channel tough to receive. No one can reliably assess whether the minuscule benefit of using a channel 3 antenna over a 2-6 antenna will put you across the performance threshold. Most likely, it won't. You might as well start with rabbit ears or make your own channel 3 dipole in the attic with a couple of pieces of wire about 50 or so inches long and oriented to form a "T" perpendicular to the direction of the transmitter and go from there.


I think that digital 3 might be going to channel 11 when the transition is complete.


----------



## greywolf

Before this forum achieved its present format, there were at least two multipage threads dedicated to WBBM reception. The is also a Lo-VHF thread still allowed since it is such a special case. I have a very large combo antenna only 11 miles from the source. I still use the D* national satellite feed for WBBM because it's more reliable than OTA.


----------



## rbautch




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greywolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Before this forum achieved its present format, there were at least two multipage threads dedicated to WBBM reception. The is also a Lo-VHF thread still allowed since it is such a special case. I have a very large combo antenna only 11 miles from the source. I still use the D* national satellite feed for WBBM because it's more reliable than OTA.



Thanks. I get standard def WBBM just fine with DirecTV, but now I'm debating whether or not getting it in high-def is worth the hassle. Since I have to mount in my attic, I doubt I'd get any reception at all without an amp. I guess $50 for an antenna and $60 for an amp is pretty cheap to do an experiment. I'm just curious if my chances are decent, or if I don't have a prayer. I'll check out the WBBM threads.


----------



## AntAltMike

Try it without the preamp first, and if you try a preamp, make sure it contains an FM trap. In most instances, the impediment to successful reception of a VHF lowband signal is impulse noise rather than signal strength.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbautch* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks. I get standard def WBBM just fine with DirecTV, but now I'm debating whether or not getting it in high-def is worth the hassle. Since I have to mount in my attic, I doubt I'd get any reception at all without an amp. I guess $50 for an antenna and $60 for an amp is pretty cheap to do an experiment. I'm just curious if my chances are decent, or if I don't have a prayer. I'll check out the WBBM threads.



You need to check out the local Chicago OTA thread. I don't presently get WBBM OTA, but I can usually get CBS from Rockford. Believe me - it looks a HECK of a lot better, even on a 480i TV, then satellite's SD WBBM signal. The satellite locals are terrible. Letterman may not be as good as he once was, but you may even start watching him again after you see how great the show looks.


----------



## jimmyfoddrell

I have a HDTV receiver (SAMSUNG 150) and a 46" TV and am using DIRECTV. A waiver for me was denied by my local affiliates for me to pick up the HD channels for CBS, NDC, FOX, and ABC. I live 40 miles from Jax fla. So I purchased a Radio Shack Model: VU-120 XR , 120 inch BOOM and also have a PREAMP installed on it. I look at my signal strength and they run 80 - 90 %, except NBC is around 70 %. Antennaweb shows the stations at 172 and 173 degrees from my location. While attempting to watch a program using the OTA antenna, the signal will drop and it will take around 10-20 seconds each time. (My DTV signal does not do this) This happens about every 8 - 10 minutes and its VERY annoying. It even does it when the weather is perfect. The antenna is 20 ft high, but about 25 yards beyond it is a patch of pine trees and oak trees. I have tried adjusting the antenna, and even moved it to different locations around the yard. Do I need a different antenna, different type of amp, or move? Any suggestions are appreciated.


----------



## Konrad2

> So I purchased a Radio Shack


Radio Shack products tend to not be the highest quality.

I'm not suggesting that you necessarily need to upgrade,

but keep it in mind for the future.


> It even does it when the weather is perfect. The antenna

> is 20 ft high, but about 25 yards beyond it is a patch

> of pine trees and oak trees.


Are the trees blowing in the wind when you get the dropouts?


Getting the antenna above the trees should help, but that might

take quite the tower.


Experts:


Do some antennas do better with trees than others?


Do some demodulators do better than others against trees?


Is the theory still that blowing trees modulate the

signal amplitude, as opposed to generating multipath?

I've been reading about the 5th generation demodulators,

and thus far it is all about multipath, nothing about

a better AGC or whatever it takes to work with trees.


----------



## sebenste

Hey gang,


OK, let's say you wat to watch DTV stations from 40 miles away in your Dodge Caravan. You can get an RG-6 cable, no problem, to the roof. There is a roof mount for antennas. You will have a DTV tuner in a laptop, a Winegard 29/28db gain VHF/UHF preamp, and...an antenna.


What antenna should someone use in a situation like this that also drives in thunderstorm activity frequently?


Receving DTV stations on the road...interesting concept, no? Assume 4th generation tuner card. Any news on the 5th generations (besides DirecTV)?


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...You will have a DTV tuner in a laptop, a Winegard 29/28db gain VHF/UHF preamp, and...an antenna.



Why the h*ll would you want to use a preamp with that much gain?

....jc


----------



## sebenste




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Why the h*ll would you want to use a preamp with that much gain?
> 
> ....jc



Forgot to mention...will be in use in areas well away (60 miles) from transmitters while in motion.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Forgot to mention...will be in use in areas well away (60 miles) from transmitters while in motion.



So? You are implying that a preamp is some sort of a magic device. It isn't. If it were, we could put up a matchbox sized antenna, and let the preamp do all the work.


That said, I'd try some sort of an omni-directional antenna(otherwise how do ya aim it?), w/o a preamp, and see how it works.

....jc


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jimmyfoddrell* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> While attempting to watch a program using the OTA antenna, the signal will drop and it will take around 10-20 seconds each time. Do I need a different antenna, different type of amp, or move? Any suggestions are appreciated.



I'd try moving the antenna higher onto a mast, tripod, or small tower. Antennaweb doesn't show any NBC reception at your location, so that's an indication that your antenna was properly installed.


----------



## Jim5506




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So? You are implying that a preamp is some sort of a magic device. It isn't. If it were, we could put up a matchbox sized antenna, and let the preamp do all the work.
> 
> 
> That said, I'd try some sort of an omni-directional antenna(otherwise how do ya aim it?), w/o a preamp, and see how it works.
> 
> ....jc



To get digital reception mobile at 40-60 miles might take some kind of miracle. DTV reception requires a semblance of steady data flow which is easily interrupted by changing surroundings. I say it probably can't be done, especially in an urban setting.


----------



## sebenste




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So? You are implying that a preamp is some sort of a magic device. It isn't. If it were, we could put up a matchbox sized antenna, and let the preamp do all the work.
> 
> 
> That said, I'd try some sort of an omni-directional antenna(otherwise how do ya aim it?), w/o a preamp, and see how it works.
> 
> ....jc



Didn't mean to imply that. Rather, the signals from an omnidirectional antenna

are probably weak, and would need to be amplified for a more consistent signal (albeit maybe not with anywhere near that amplification, depending on the antenna).


Any recommendations for an omnidirectional?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey gang,
> 
> 
> OK, let's say you wat to watch DTV stations from 40 miles away in your Dodge Caravan. You can get an RG-6 cable, no problem, to the roof. There is a roof mount for antennas. You will have a DTV tuner in a laptop, a Winegard 29/28db gain VHF/UHF preamp, and...an antenna.
> 
> 
> What antenna should someone use in a situation like this that also drives in thunderstorm activity frequently?
> 
> 
> Receving DTV stations on the road...interesting concept, no? Assume 4th generation tuner card. Any news on the 5th generations (besides DirecTV)?



Good luck with your science experiment---be sure to let us know how it works.

If you're parked, you gotta shot---however, watching DTV while moving will be quite a challenge.


At 40+ miles, even if you're parked, you'll need a moderate gain antenna pointed towards the desired station....forget the omni...

And the higher the better.....the closer you mount the antenna to the vehicle, the more it's gonna reduce the signal.

There are antennas intended for mobile use that have more gain and multipath rejection than an omni or simple dipole.....

but you won't find it at Winegard.


At home, I'm currently using the DX Antenna DTA-5000 Smart Antenna (with variable gain Preamps) with the Sylvania 6900DTE OTA STB, which is (thus far) the one and only STB with the EIA/CEA-909 Smart Antenna Control Interface:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1post5979741 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9post5891449 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5post5826625 

Unfortunately, the DTA-5000 doesn't automatically track signal direction changes, requiring 15-20 minutes each time you request it to readapt the antenna settings.

If you don't want to go the Smart Antenna route, the last post provides links to the DX Antenna DTA-3500 and DTA-3000, which are manually steered.


==================================================

If you are moving, there is (at least) a double whammy working against you: doppler and dynamic multipath.

These aspects are discussed at length in the references I listed in the fol. posts:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2post6211062 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3post5842783 

Current ATSC Receivers are not designed to track doppler offsets, nor are any yet available with the dual (or preferable triple or quad) antenna diversity needed to work around those nasty dynamic multipath nulls.


The above references summarize the performance of single vs dual antenna diversity systems employing European COFDM DVB-T Receivers. Antenna Diversity provided the dramatic improvement in performance that was needed to overcome dynamic multipath nulls--but there were still doppler correction limitations that limited the top speed to sub-Autobahn speeds.


The current ATSC waveform is much more susceptible to multipath, dynamic multipath and doppler.

So it's gonna need a lot more help to work in a mobile environment.

Which is why ATSC approved the robust Enhanced VSB (E-8VSB) in 2004 and is currently considering the even more robust Advanced VSB (A-VSB) proposal, both of which use error detection coding and other techniques to improve performance and H.264 (MPEG4/AVC) or VC-1 to overcome the subsequent loss in data rate:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7post7647247 


And other mobile TV competitors are implementing variations of COFDM, like MEDIAFLO and DVB-H.....coming soon to your mobile van...


================================================

You might want to consider a SAT system with "In-Motion" antenna:
http://www.winegard.com/mobile/movinview.htm 
http://www.winegard.com/mobile/roadtrip.htm 


================================================

PS: Analog NTSC Receivers are readily available for mobile use---nearly all of which use dual (or quad) antenna diversity....


----------



## sebenste




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Good luck with your science experiment---be sure to let us know how it works.
> 
> If you're parked, you gotta shot---however, watching DTV while moving will be quite a challenge.
> 
> 
> At 40+ miles, even if you're parked, you'll need a moderate gain antenna pointed towards the desired station....forget the omni...
> 
> And the higher the better.....the closer you mount the antenna to the vehicle, the more it's gonna reduce the signal.



LOL! Science experiment, yes. Between doppler shift, signal reflections off the van, etc...it's daunting.


Right now the van owners have a "windshield" TV antenna on the inside. Looks like those old windshield AM/FM antennas, but on a "patch" that looks odd. Never had to deal with reception in vehicles before, so this is new to me. However, physics is physics, and non-directional=low gain/negative gain, no matter what.

This "antenna" looks cheesy and I have tried the reception capabilities...once.

Was completely underwhelmed with it.










Yeah, I know they'll have to be parked. But they travel in rural areas in relatively flat terrain. That will help. Question: will the DTA-5000 improve reception

with ANY tuner, not just the Sylvania one? Or is it model-specific to see the improvements you did?



It probably won't be soon before I try to tackle this with them, but I am trying to get a head start for them. Thanks for your insight, as always!


----------



## ST RICH

Should I replace my current RG-59 cable with the new RG-6 cable? I have two 12 feet RG-59 cables from a CM 4228 and a CM 4221 combine with a two splitter in reverse into a 50 feet of RG-59 cable to my HDTV. It will cost my about $30 to upgrade. Will it worth the cost to upgrade? Any opinions will be accepted. Thanks in advance...


----------



## greywolf

Do you have a problem right now? RG6 will have lower loss but, unless something is wrong, why bother?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> LOL! Science experiment, yes. Between doppler shift, signal reflections off the van, etc...it's daunting.
> 
> 
> Right now the van owners have a "windshield" TV antenna on the inside. Looks like those old windshield AM/FM antennas, but on a "patch" that looks odd. Never had to deal with reception in vehicles before, so this is new to me. However, physics is physics, and non-directional=low gain/negative gain, no matter what.
> 
> This "antenna" looks cheesy and I have tried the reception capabilities...once.
> 
> Was completely underwhelmed with it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I know they'll have to be parked. But they travel in rural areas in relatively flat terrain. That will help. Question: will the DTA-5000 improve reception
> 
> with ANY tuner, not just the Sylvania one? Or is it model-specific to see the improvements you did?
> 
> 
> 
> It probably won't be soon before I try to tackle this with them, but I am trying to get a head start for them. Thanks for your insight, as always!



DTA-5000 only responds to EIA/CEA-909 Smart Antenna Interface controls and hence is only compatible with Sylvania/Funai 6900DTE.

It uses crossed dipoles for VHF and a N/S/E/W array of two-element Yagi antennas (reflector and driven element) for UHF.

I found it to be about as effective as a 4-Bay antenna in both indoor and outdoor comparison tests.

The DTA-3500 appears to have specs that are very close and will accept manual controls.


If you want a more effective antenna, you might want to consider "erecting" the CM-4228 from a stowed position (which might have something to block the full force of the wind when moving).


If you've got money to burn, Katherein-Scala makes the somewhat lower gain CL-1469B LPDA, which has a fiberglass housing:
http://www.kathrein-scala.com/catalog/CL-1469B.pdf 

This was the "standard" antenna in on-the-air comparison tests reported by Bob Chase:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1post5399471


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Between doppler shift, signal reflections off the van, etc...it's daunting.



There should be no doppler shift. You're comparing the speed of light to 60mph. That's why it doesn't matter which direction you're headed - radio sounds the same.


----------



## Konrad2

Is the Winegard CS-7750 VHF/UHF separator/coupler shielded?

I haven't found a description that tells whether the case is

metal or plastic.


Same shielding question for the Winegard CA-8800 FM BAND separator/coupler.

Does the CA-8800 pass both low and high VHF and not hurt channel 6?

Would the CA-8800 work as a FM trap? (Attach a terminator to the

FM output.)


The FT-7500 TRAP is described as having a plastic housing, thus

I assume it is not shielded. Also it is described as hurting

channel 6. I'm surprised that I haven't found a version that

passes chan 6.


Same questions for FT-7600 Variable FM Trap (75 ohm)

Shielded? Can it be adjusted to not hurt chan 6?


Does Winegard make a separator/coupler to split low-VHF from

high-VHF? I haven't found one.


I assume the Channel Master versions are all unshielded plastic?


Are there other brands I should consider?


----------



## holl_ands

Even moderate speeds create significant doppler offsets in the VHF/UHF bands.

The higher the frequency, the larger the doppler shift in received carrier frequency:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...v/reldop3.html 

and for velocity much less than the speed of light:
http://www.viestikallio.fi/tools/doppler.php 

This yields a calculated doppler of as much as 84 Hz at 70 mph for (worst case) CH69.


The fol. post gives you some idea of the amount of doppler observed by a home-brew doppler radar system operating at 26 MHz:
http://www.qsl.net/g3cwi/doppler.htm 

If you scale the frequency of operation for the UHF band, the doppler shifts will be about 20 times larger.


==================================================

DTV Doppler "flutter" effects due to reflections off of moving aircraft of as much as 150 Hz are calculated and discussed in sec 4.5.3.4 of ATSC A/74, "ATSC Recommended Practices, Receiver Performance Guidelines":
http://www.atsc.org/standards/practices/a74.html 


The CRC (Canadian Research Center) conducted tests on several prototype ATSC Receivers:
http://www.crc.ca/en/html/crc/home/r...broadcast/rtnt 


In the most recent (and hence best performing) PROTOTYPE Samsung STB, only fairly small doppler offsets could be tolerated under typical multipath test conditions. Moderate amounts of doppler could be tolerated, but only when the multipath components were at much lower levels than the primary signal.


In earlier tests of the PROTOTYPE 5th Gen Zenith/LG STB, the doppler tolerance was even more limited, as was the ability to tolerate "0 dB" multipath wherein the multipath signal strength is nearly the same as the primary signal.


========================================

BTW: Doppler Correction is also necessary for data comm systems operating with not only aircraft in the HF band, but also to partially compensate for the doppler shifts due to extreme turbulence in the ionosphere.


And of course, doppler offsets for non-synchronous SATCOM systems (like GPS) are significantly higher....


----------



## AntAltMike

_"If you are in a spaceship that is traveling at the speed of light, and you turn on the headlights, does anything happen?"_



- Steven Wright


----------



## bikepoet

Hello everyone,


I recently got a Dell XPS 400 with XP MCE and dual NTSC tuner, so I decided to add an ATSC tuner since ABC, Fox, and PBS broadcast in digital here. I got the Dvico FusionHDTV5 RT lite ATSC tuner card, and a cheap $12 Wal-Mart RCA ANT145 VHF/UHF antenna.


Adjusting the UHF loop and turning the knob, I was able to get 93-97% signal on ABC, 72-80% on Fox, and 75-85% on PBS, all at different UHF antenna angles and knob settings (the broadcast frequencies are all in the UHF range). So I thought if this cheapo antenna is this good, the Silver Sensor should be loads better, right?


Wrong!


I hooked up the Silver Sensor and turn and twisted it, and I could barely get ABC! The other 2 were out of the question.


How could this be? I thought the Silver Sensor was "the" indoor antenna to get. I do live in a south facing apartment and the towers are north of me, so my only explanation was I was getting some useful omnidirectional reception from reflected signal and the Silver Sensor was too directional possibly.


Any ideas? I'm about to send the Silver Sensor back.


Brian


----------



## Nitewatchman

I haven't used the others, but can address Konrad's CA-8800 questions to some extent, and explain how I'm using a CA-8800, just in case it's of any use.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Same shielding question for the Winegard CA-8800 FM BAND separator/coupler.



The "case" on CA-8800 I purchased January 2005 is "metal", appears to be aluminum, or a similar alloy. I purchased it from a local distributor who didn't have one in stock, they had to order it from Winegard. Took a week or two as I recall.



> Quote:
> Does the CA-8800 pass both low and high VHF and not hurt channel 6?



It passes ch 2-6 and 7-13 as well as(per the specs on winegard site) UHF ch 14-69 on the TV port. I haven't personally checked for insertion loss on UHF, as I only use it with VHF+FM(more on this below). I can't say with 100% certianity that "ch 6 is not effected", however I have no problems receiving weak analog stations on channel 6 with TV hooked to "TV" port, nor do I have problems with weak audio carriers from those same channel 6 stations on FM receiver tuned to 87.7MHZ and hooked to its FM port.


Note : As the description on winegard site would seem to imply -- I believe the "TV" and "FM" ports could be used either as a "band seperator" (as I'm using it, even though the ports are labeled "TV", FM" and "Input"), or a "coupler" - such as with seperate TV and FM antennas hooked to the "TV" and "FM" ports respectively.



> Quote:
> Would the CA-8800 work as a FM trap? (Attach a terminator to the
> 
> FM output.)



I don't think so, at least I suspect nowhere near as well as a "real" FM trap. I suspect even Radio shack's FM trap would be much better. Although I haven't tried a terminator on one side to see what happens, nor have I spent much time "fiddling with it" to see ...


From what I can tell from a brief check with it I performed, using the FM+TV ports as "output ports" -- FM signals seem to be "significantly" passed via the "TV" port, and TV signals(at least on VHF) seem to be "significantly" passed via the "FM" port. For instance, just for the heck of it, I hooked up a TV to the "FM" side and still picked up quite strong local VHF signals with it(hi-VHF may not have been quite as "pretty" however), even enough so that a weak signal on 3 from a station 95 miles away was present. And, I certianly still need a FM trap in line on the TV side.


I believe it does have less insertion loss than a 2 way splitter, and for my application that's mainly why I ordered it. My experience with it does lead me to wonder how much isolation there actually is between the "TV" and "FM" port if you are using it as a coupler for seperate TV+FM antennas ...


For the antenna setup, I use it with --- I use seperate feedlines(coax) from seperate VHF+UHF antennas(used with rotor in some cases) to the attic. For VHF/FM, the feedline from a broadband ch 2-13 VHF+FM antenna(Winegard PR5030 - which btw seems to have an "odd" pattern on FM above about 93 MHZ or so, 88~92 MHZ makes perfect sense per the polar patterns for ~ch 6 shown in Winegard's spec sheet) goes into attic, then to CA-8800 - I have feed from the "FM" port on CA-8800 feeding A FM receiver, so I can get FM signals off the antenna before using FM traps and VHF TV channel traps(notch filters) after the TV port.


On the TV side, after the "TV port" from the CA-8800, I have several channel traps from Blonder-Tongue+Winegard in line to knock down strong analog stations on 2+7. note : I use a different antenna setup, on different feedline+A/B switch(s) before receiver(s) to receive those stations as well as UHF digital stations from that market.


I have one of the Winegard traps (a TRT-LO, tunable from 54~88MHZ - I don't think they make the VHF "TRT" traps any more) tuned for greatest "notch" on 88.7MHZ. The specs say it does a -12db notch, half power points at 2MHZ bandwidth. I do this because I have several strong low-FM signals, and the FM traps I've used/tried(note the FM trap in CM7778 seems to work as well as any I've tried) don't quite knock down strong low-FM signals (especailly stations on 88~89 MHZ in my area) enough so channel 6 reception isn't effected, including with the CA-8800 in line.


For instance, without the TRT-LO tuned to knock down low-FM, I'd guess(just guessing really) probably mostly due to "selectivity" issues involving consumer NTSC tuners in TV's --- one particuarly strong station on 88.1MHZ 12 miles distant(NE) pretty much "wipes out"(or makes it look very "ugly") a analog TV station on channel 6(78 miles away - ENE) in nearly the same direction.


While the TRT-LO tuned for 88.7 does seem to slightly effect a weak Channel 6 audio carrier (87.75 MHZ), I can(and do occasionally) tune the FM receiver to 87.7 for the ch 6 audio when necessary, as the "effect" from the strong FM's in several directions on 88.1~88.5, especially w/o the TRT-Lo tuned for 88.7 is even worse anyway ....


Another particularly difficult situation this works well with is a strong FM on 88.5 in nearly the same direction(WSW - 18 miles) as another occasionally viewed analog station on channel 6 approx 100 miles(west) distant.


Anyhow, after the channel traps, the VHF TV feed goes to a CM7778 preamp(with FM trap engaged) and its power supply, then to VHF port on CM0549 VHF/UHF joiner. An XG91 with winegard Mast mount AC-4990 preamp is used for UHF, I also have a Winegard UT-27 tunable UHF trap(older version of UT-2700) in line in attic after power supply for preamp to knock down a strong analog on 22 a bit for the "tuners" ....


Probably more than you wanted to know, but just in case some of it helps ....


----------



## AntAltMike

Why does Konrad2 care about an FM trap? Does he believe his preamp is being overloaded by a local FM station? He won't be able to tune one without a signal meter.


The FT-7500 is the 300 ohm version of the FT-7600 dual notch trap. The notch dimensions are similar to those cited by Nitewatchman in his description of the Winegard traps. The plastic cases are unshielded, but at FM frequencies, the exposed components are inefficient antennas and the ingress is generally of no practical consequence.


Older FT-7500s and 7600s use a .100 inductor adjustment tool, but the newer ones use a .070 tool, which is a little harder to find. One sucky thing about all of them is the tunable inductors are really cheap and once they have been tuned a few times, they tend to stick and become impossible to further retune.


If you need to just knock down a lot of FM stations, cheap FM band-reduction filters commonly used the part numbers FMT and FMT88. An FMT usually supresses the FM band from about 93Mz to 108Mz, whereas the FMT88 attenuates the whole band but severely damages channel 6 analog. As a rule, cities with channel 6 analog stations are smaller cities that do not have strong FM stations at the low end, but there are a few exceptions to that rule, and of course, quite often someone is trying to bring a distant channel 6 into their local market that has a low frequency FM station and therefore may need a notch filter.


Blonder Tongue Hi-Lo separators are engineered to pass the entire FM band, but they probably cost around $20. I think most of the $1 Hi-Los I buy from Holland, Pico, Tru Spec or whomever pass the whole FM band, but I haven't actually tested them.


Tru Spec used to make two models of cheap 75 ohm TV/FM separators that looked like splitters. One was for markets with a channel 6 that rolled off the FM at 93Mz and the other was for markets without one, that passed the entire FM band but would beat up a channel 6 if there was one present. They sold for a couple of bucks each, but there was no demand for them. Unless you are really signal starved, a splitter or tap for the development of an FM port will work just fine.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> _"If you are in a spaceship that is traveling at the speed of light, and you turn on the headlights, does anything happen?"_
> 
> 
> 
> - Steven Wright



No, because electrons take forever to travel along the wire in the direction of the headlights.


Not only that, but the taillights also take forever to turn on, due to the need for the electrons to travel back via the ground return path.


===========================================

"OK, so what's the speed of dark?"

- Steven Wright


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ST RICH* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Should I replace my current RG-59 cable with the new RG-6 cable? I have two 12 feet RG-59 cables from a CM 4228 and a CM 4221 combine with a two splitter in reverse into a 50 feet of RG-59 cable to my HDTV. It will cost my about $30 to upgrade. Will it worth the cost to upgrade? Any opinions will be accepted. Thanks in advance...



Plugging in 803 MHz (for worst case CH69) and 62 ft length, the diff is only about 1 dB:
http://www.timesmicrowave.com/cgi-bin/calculate.pl 

So it's hardly worth the effort. Of course, YMMY if you have moisture in the cable....


----------



## greywolf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No, because electrons take forever to travel along the wire in the direction of the headlights.
> 
> 
> Not only that, but the taillights also take forever to turn on, due to the need for the electrons to travel back via the ground return path.
> 
> 
> ===========================================
> 
> "OK, so what's the speed of dark?"
> 
> - Steven Wright



Well, if the spaceship is traveling at the speed of light, its length will be zero, its mass will be infinite and it will suck the entire universe into a singularity. I wouldn't be concerned about the lights.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bikepoet* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I got the Dvico FusionHDTV5 RT lite ATSC tuner card...
> 
> 
> How could this be? I thought the Silver Sensor was "the" indoor antenna to get. I do live in a south facing apartment and the towers are north of me, so my only explanation was I was getting some useful omnidirectional reception from reflected signal and the Silver Sensor was too directional possibly.



Starting with the modern tuners like the one in the HDTV5, multipath (called "ghosts" on analog stations) can be beneficial rather than harmful to reception. With those, a less directional antenna may be better than a more directional one.


The Silver Sensor is what it is. In certain circumstances, a bad antenna will outperform a good one. Sounds like that's the case for you. Return the SS and be happy with your RCA.


----------



## kycubsfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Starting with the modern tuners like the one in the HDTV5, multipath (called "ghosts" on analog stations) can be beneficial rather than harmful to reception.



Are there any set-top boxes that offer a version of this "modern tuner?" Multipath is a killer in my particular location, and I'd jump at the chance to turn it in my favor.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kycubsfan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are there any set-top boxes that offer a version of this "modern tuner?" Multipath is a killer in my particular location, and I'd jump at the chance to turn it in my favor.



There are "5th Gen" tuners in various PCI Cards, USB Boxes, HDTV's and probably some of the new MPEG4 SAT Rcvrs,

but thus far we don't know of any "5th Gen" or equivalent tuners in either OTA STBs or OTA DVRs.....


Maybe by this summer....

Keep checking the 5TH GEN RCVR CHIP thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...30#post7647330


----------



## kycubsfan

Thank you very much.


----------



## Zeosstud

Hello All,

I have a DB4 antenna hooked to a rotor and mounted on the roof of my house. Recently because of some hail damage I had to get up on the roof and do some repairs. During the process I also did some testing and am curious if this makes sense to anyone. Because of the length of the cable installed I used a Channel Master 7777 PreAmp, when I did my repairs yesterday, when all was said and done, I no longer have the mast mounted part of the 7777 attached, I do however have the 0474 power adapter part hooked up inside. I am getting a pretty good signal on the one VHF channel that historically is the problem, 80-85% signal strength according to the testing on my HD Tivo HR10-250. My question is "does that make any sense" to anyone. If I unplug the 0474 part then the signal goes way down, I am just wondering if I should take the time and effort to reinstall the mast mount part or just leave it. Currently the weather is nice and really things should be coming in well, would hate for alittle weather that would normally not be an issue to become one since I dont have the mast part of the 7777 installed. Thanks for your time.


Rodney


----------



## newsposter

i'm not a technical expert but do know one thing...if it aint broke dont fix it!!!


----------



## ChopOMatic

Just bought a house outside Magnolia, TX. According to AntennaWeb, I'm between 41 and 43 miles from all the Houston DTV transmitters.


Anyone here have a specific antenna recommendation (and amp if needed?) I'll be installing HD DirecTiVo units for satellite HDTV, but I'd really love to have good OTA access if possible.


Thoughts? (Or have I posted in the wrong place?)


Thanks much!


Chop


----------



## newsposter

my DB8 works great 40 miles away with my 2 HDtivos and i split the line right inback of the stacked units....used leviton home depot amp for a long run...trap on made a difference for me. Others say try the CM 4228 since it's less than 1/2 that price.


----------



## ChopOMatic

Thanks much. I also forgot to mention that every transmitter I'm interested in is at a compass heading of 155, 156, or 157.


Chop


----------



## johnml

i just bought a samsung ota hdtv reciever and would like to get by without a outdoor antenna. im about 18-20 miles from the networks. will a indoor antenna work ? thanks


----------



## Konrad2

Thanks Jeff, and AntAltMike. Definitely useful info.


AntAltMike writes:

} Why does Konrad2 care about an FM trap?


For one thing, it's hard to listen to channel 6 with the FM mixed in.


} The plastic cases are unshielded, but at FM frequencies, the exposed

} components are inefficient antennas and the ingress is generally of

} no practical consequence.


Sometimes antennas don't have to be efficient. :-(


Jeff, from another posting:

> Channel traps Note: the channel traps are mounted in a Ammo box

> -- Which some extra(needed since 2/7 come in "off the screws"

> so to speak) RF shielding


That sounds like some seriously thick shielding. Do you also run

the coax inside metal conduit? That would be a major PITA.


Anyone have opinions on the filters from http://www.tinlee.com/ ?


----------



## Konrad2

> Starting with the modern tuners like the one in the HDTV5,

> multipath (called "ghosts" on analog stations) can be beneficial

> rather than harmful to reception. With those, a less directional

> antenna may be better than a more directional one.


Huh? I can't imagine how multipath could ever be beneficial.

Please explain.


----------



## holl_ands

Depends on the nature of the multipath.


If there is a strong, non-fading (e.g. line-of-sight) primary path plus one or more reflected

(and probably fading) paths, then multipath will degrade performance compared to if only line-of-sight.


If there isn't a strong primary path, such as when a building or other object blocks the line-of-sight path, then the

several reflected (usually fading) signals will individually come and go.....but one will tend to fill in when the other fades away.


IF (and that's a very BIG IF) the ATSC Decoder chip can coherently add the various multipath components,

then the resultant SNR could improve compared to only one or two fading paths....or a single non-fading path.


In the Canadian Research Center (CRC) tests on the prototype Samsung ATSC Receiver,

the minimum required SNR improved 1-2 dB under certain multipath test conditions (e.g. Brazil C and D)

compared to non-multipath (Calibration).

The prototype Linx (now Micronas) and prototype Zenith/LG 5th Gen ATSC Receivers had only small, if any multipath combining gain:
http://www.crc.ca/en/html/crc/home/r...broadcast/rtnt


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do you also run
> 
> the coax inside metal conduit?



Definitely not, and I think that would be unnecessary .... At one time, I did have to change the routing of the coax run in the attic concerning it's proximity to an ethernet hub and cat 5 cable, as I was getting some interference on Ch 4 from it ... Thought I might have to install some ferrite beads, but moving the coax a few feet away from the hub/etc. in the attic did the trick ..


BTW, The traps were "installed" inside the ammo box by their previous owner, which I found somewhat beneficial while tuning the traps as I think(hope anyway) I noted previously .... although, of course I couldn't access the traps with the top on the box ..... Also, when I mentioned "2/7" coming in off the screws" I was referring to the signals being sufficently strong to be received to some extent if no antenna was hooked up to NTSC tuner ... As AntAltmike mentioned, I don't think ingress "at the traps" would likely to be in any significant way, detrimental to their "performance" ...


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> AntAltMike writes:...
> 
> } The plastic cases are unshielded, but at FM frequencies, the exposed
> 
> } components are inefficient antennas and the ingress is generally of
> 
> } no practical consequence.
> 
> 
> Sometimes antennas don't have to be efficient.



But you're needlessly and unjustifiably concerned that the FM signal that an unshielded case leaks in would negate its notching effect, which it doesn't. If it did, the unshielded FM trap would be a useless item.



> Quote:
> Anyone have opinions on the filters from http://www.tinlee.com/



I didn't look up the specific linked traps, but Tin Lee traps cost about four times as much as Winegard traps. On the other hand, I'm sure that Tin Lee will tune an FM notch trap to the exact frequency you want, whereas Winegard dealers do not offer that service.


----------



## Konrad2

> IF (and that's a very BIG IF) the ATSC Decoder chip can coherently add the

> various multipath components, then the resultant SNR could improve compared

> to only one or two fading paths....or a single non-fading path.


> In the Canadian Research Center (CRC) tests on the prototype Samsung ATSC Receiver,

...

> http://www.crc.ca/en/html/crc/home/r...broadcast/rtnt 


Quite impressive.


Are there similar tests for 4th generation demodulators?

I poked around on crc.ca and also tried google, but couldn't find any.


From April, 2005:

} Generally speaking, leaves will attenuate signals, especially UHF,

} and if they are being blown by the wind, this attenuation is usually

} too variable for the automatic gain control module in your tuner to

} compensate for.


I didn't see any tests to see how the tuners/demodulators handle this

problem. :-(


I also didn't see anything that appeared to test for tuners/demodulators

ability to deal with transmitter differential gain error. :-(


----------



## Konrad2

AntAltMike writes:

> But you're needlessly and unjustifiably concerned that the FM signal

> that an unshielded case leaks in would negate its notching effect,

> which it doesn't. If it did, the unshielded FM trap would be a useless item.


A filter is only going to affect the signal that goes through it.

Anything that leaks in after the filter will not get filtered out.


Jeff writes:

} Also, when I mentioned "2/7" coming in off the screws" I was referring

} to the signals being sufficently strong to be received to some extent

} if no antenna was hooked up to NTSC tuner


I can get interference without an antenna.


I can *shield* the screws and still get a good NTSC picture on one channel!


Maybe I should look into getting some ammo boxes? :-/


----------



## AntAltMike

How could I have been so stupid?


----------



## newsposter

sounds like new sig material


----------



## islandlad

please comment on what i'm thinking of buying to get some TV reception...Am behind trees & about 300' above sea level...



Channel Master CM 3671 Deepest Fringe Crossfire Series

Antenna (CM3671)


$125



Channel Master CM 9521A Complete Antenna Rotator System with Infra-Red Remote Control (CM9521A)


$ about 90



thanks don


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> > IF (and that's a very BIG IF) the ATSC Decoder chip can coherently add the
> 
> > various multipath components, then the resultant SNR could improve compared
> 
> > to only one or two fading paths....or a single non-fading path.
> 
> 
> > In the Canadian Research Center (CRC) tests on the prototype Samsung ATSC Receiver,
> 
> ...
> 
> > http://www.crc.ca/en/html/crc/home/r...broadcast/rtnt
> 
> 
> Quite impressive.
> 
> 
> Are there similar tests for 4th generation demodulators?
> 
> I poked around on crc.ca and also tried google, but couldn't find any.
> 
> 
> From April, 2005:
> 
> } Generally speaking, leaves will attenuate signals, especially UHF,
> 
> } and if they are being blown by the wind, this attenuation is usually
> 
> } too variable for the automatic gain control module in your tuner to
> 
> } compensate for.
> 
> 
> I didn't see any tests to see how the tuners/demodulators handle this
> 
> problem. :-(
> 
> 
> I also didn't see anything that appeared to test for tuners/demodulators
> 
> ability to deal with transmitter differential gain error. :-(



The CRC tests are unique in that they actually name names---although the production

equipment may perform somewhat better (or worst) than the tested prototype.


A variety of lab and on-tests have been conducted, including the original Grand Alliance (GA)

double-conversion receiver and various 2nd and 3rd Gen receivers:


a. www.atsc.org lists numerous reports incl. fol. dated Dec 2000:
http://www.atsc.org/news_information...Comparison.pdf 


b. Australia 1998 Test Report: ATSC vs DVB-T (dtbfield.doc) (30 pgs):
http://happy.emu.id.au/lab/info/digtv/files/ 


c. Brazil 2000 Test Report: ATSC vs DVB-T (119 pgs):
http://www.anatel.gov.br/english_sit...alises_ing.pdf 


d. Summary of DVB-T (et. al.) Field Trials Around the World:
http://www.bjpace.com.cn/data/tec/te...he%20World.pdf 


e. Zenith 2003: Excellent Summary of Commercial Broadcasters On-Air Tests (19 pgs):
http://www.zenith.com/digitalbroadca...%20Results.pdf 


f. Zenith 2003: ATSC Seminar--See on-air test summary towards end (265 pgs):
http://www.zenith.com/digitalbroadca...r%20Slides.pdf 

[Everything you ever wanted to know about ATSC, but were afraid to ask....]


Tests on so-called 4th and 5th Gen receivers (i.e. LST-4200A and later) are very difficult

to interpret because manufacturer/model designations are generally missing.


Last year, an STB/HDTV receiver comparison test was conducted by MSTV for the FCC,

wherein there were found to be big differences between some high performance tuners

(probably LG 5th Gen & ATI THEATER) and the others (incl the much used ATI NXT2004/2003).


Thomson, Zarlink, Micronas, Zoran, et.al. claim they meet the ATSC A/74 Receiver Guidelines,

but it is unknown if they were incuded in the above tests--probaby not, given the timing.


ATI submitted some (2003/2004) ATSC Decoder test results as part of last year's SHVERA ILLR

proceeding, comparing their latest THEATER chip(s) to unknown "others".


Checkout the 5th Gen Receiver Chip thread for these and other discussions:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...st#post7024579


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> From April, 2005:
> 
> } Generally speaking, leaves will attenuate signals, especially UHF,
> 
> } and if they are being blown by the wind, this attenuation is usually
> 
> } too variable for the automatic gain control module in your tuner to
> 
> } compensate for.



I don't know the "full context" of the above quote, however, I expect "usually" is probably overstating the problem. Not that my results should be considered in any way "typical", however -- For instance, I have 1,000's of mature trees within a short distance of my antenna(some are as close as 20 feet from antenna), and I've never actually experienced the problem when the leaves are ON the trees, no matter how hard the wind is blowing.


However, I have experienced the problem to a certian extent from stations in one market(towers on the same "antenna farm") - specifically only the digital stations in that market operating on channel 50 or above(there are three of them), 12 miles distant+with some "terrain issues" involved --- ONLY when the leaves are OFF the trees and the wind is blowing ... On analog UHF stations from the same market, the "effect" looks very similar to dynamic multipath conditions, with "fluttering ghosts" apparent, and "variable" with the wind gusts ...


As mentioned above, I'm using two different antenna "setups" with seperate feedlines+ an a/b switch before receiver(s) to switch between them. On the "main" antenna setup with rotor(UHF antenna is XG91 at about 37FT above ground), If I rotate the antenna towards the stations in the market with the "wind+tree" problems in the winter months, I never have a problem, including during wind gusts.


However, on the antenna I have side mounted to tower(and aimed towards this market for "convienance" sake so I don't have to use the rotor to receive stations from this market), I had some problems with the wind+tree limbs blowing around as mentioned above. This was solved by #1). a "long-yagi" (31 element UHF yagi+corner reflector, not sure who the manufactuer is, I managed to save it from the dump when I caught my neighbor taking the previous owners antennas down), AND #2). by mounting it 28 feet above ground ... Not 20 feet, not 22 feet, not 25 feet, not 26 feet, not 18 feet, but 28 feet, no problems. Luckily, as I couldn't go lower or higher on this "mast", - Some other "spots" worked fine for 1 or two of 3 the stations transmitting on 50,51+58, but the 28FT "mark" was the only spot which works well for all three when the leaves are off and the wind is blowing .... ........ Not a CM4228, and not a Radio shack early 80's model 25 element UHF Yagi+Corner reflector, and not a couple of other antennas I tried, but the 31 Element yagi+corner reflector I saved from the "dump"... "priceless" .....


What was also a bit surprising to me while moving the antenna to try to find that "sweet spot" I was hoping for was the apparent difference in signal levels between the antenna at 25ft vs 28ft. This was perhaps especially evident on a low power analog station on 40 with a transmitting antenna several hundred feet lower than the other stations in the market .... I suspect the terrain issue is perhaps the most "relevant" factor there ....



> Quote:
> I didn't see any tests to see how the tuners/demodulators handle this
> 
> problem. :-(
> 
> 
> I also didn't see anything that appeared to test for tuners/demodulators
> 
> ability to deal with transmitter differential gain error. :-(



I'd also like to see detailed field/receiver performance tests on this issue, I suspect it may be just as much of a concern as the "multipath" issues ....


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> e. Zenith 2003: Excellent Summary of Commercial Broadcasters On-Air Tests (19 pgs):
> http://www.zenith.com/digitalbroadca...%20Results.pdf
> 
> 
> f. Zenith 2003: ATSC Seminar--See on-air test summary towards end (265 pgs):
> http://www.zenith.com/digitalbroadca...r%20Slides.pdf
> 
> [Everything you ever wanted to know about ATSC, but were afraid to ask....]



I also like this one from Zenith+Gary Sringoli. (26pgs, No slides, but detailed info on the on-air tests+info on ATSC and receiver design considerations), A paper entitled : "DTV Field Test Methodology and Results And Their Effect on VSB Receiver Design", available here :

http://www.zenith.com/digitalbroadca...x%20Design.pdf


----------



## Konrad2

>> From April, 2005:

>} Generally speaking, leaves will attenuate signals, especially UHF,

>} and if they are being blown by the wind, this attenuation is usually

>} too variable for the automatic gain control module in your tuner to

>} compensate for.

>

> I don't know the "full context" of the above quote,


This thread, from April, 2005:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archi...81623-p-8.html 


> On analog UHF stations from the same market, the "effect" looks

> very similar to dynamic multipath conditions, with "fluttering ghosts"

> apparent, and "variable" with the wind gusts ...


I don't recall having ever seen "fluttering ghosts", although it

makes sense, if the variable attenuation affects one path more

than another.


>> I also didn't see anything that appeared to test for tuners/demodulators

>> ability to deal with transmitter differential gain error. :-(

>

> I'd also like to see detailed field/receiver performance tests on this issue,

> I suspect it may be just as much of a concern as the "multipath" issues ....


I wonder if some sort of tilt/equalization could be applied to compensate?

Hard to know what's going on without a spectrum analyser.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I also like this one from Zenith+Gary Sringoli. (26pgs, No slides, but detailed info on the on-air tests+info on ATSC and receiver design considerations), A paper entitled : "DTV Field Test Methodology and Results And Their Effect on VSB Receiver Design", available here :
> 
> http://www.zenith.com/digitalbroadca...x%20Design.pdf



The fol. more complete report also addresses tuner design, diversity antennas, VSWR degradation and related issues:
http://www.atsc.org/news_information...Assessment.pdf


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> >>
> 
> 
> >> I also didn't see anything that appeared to test for tuners/demodulators
> 
> >> ability to deal with transmitter differential gain error. :-(
> 
> >
> 
> > I'd also like to see detailed field/receiver performance tests on this issue,
> 
> > I suspect it may be just as much of a concern as the "multipath" issues ....
> 
> 
> I wonder if some sort of tilt/equalization could be applied to compensate?
> 
> Hard to know what's going on without a spectrum analyser.



What specifically do you mean by "transmitter differential gain error"?


----------



## Konrad2

>>>> I also didn't see anything that appeared to test for tuners/demodulators

>>>> ability to deal with transmitter differential gain error. :-(

>>>

>>> I'd also like to see detailed field/receiver performance tests on this issue,

>>> I suspect it may be just as much of a concern as the "multipath" issues ....

>>

>> I wonder if some sort of tilt/equalization could be applied to compensate?

>> Hard to know what's going on without a spectrum analyser.

>

> What specifically do you mean by "transmitter differential gain error"?


See message #2433 in this thread, by Bob Chase of KHWB-TV:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post5964531 


Additional questions at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post7590513


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't recall having ever seen "fluttering ghosts", although it
> 
> makes sense, if the variable attenuation affects one path more
> 
> than another.



Perhaps "fluttering ghosts" is not the best term to describe it ... To put it another way, it's very similar to what occurs on NTSC signals when a multipath reflection from a overflying aircraft occurs.


What also may be interesting here is -- when the wind isn't blowing, any ghosts present are mininal, although it is a bit worse when the leaves are off on certian channels. When the leaves are on, I can detect no "ghosting" of any consequence. Also, since what occurs is frequency specific(for instance the "fluttery ghosts" when the wind is blowing+leaves are off are most apparent on analog NTSC signal on ch 45), one especially cannot draw any conclusions given the different "channels" used by the digital stations, not to mention the slightly different transmitting antenna height.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hard to know what's going on without a spectrum analyser.



Yes, although I expect with a spectrum analyzer it still may be difficult in such cases to sort out exactly what is occuring.


I expect multiple factors may be involved, at least concerning my observations in my particular circumstance. Perhaps the "variable atteunation" when the wind is blowing, "variable" multipath conditions(leaves on trees vs. leaves off trees), and VSWR could be three possible factors involved.


My understanding is that trees(including leaves) are an attenuation factor, moreso the higher the frequency. My experience is(in a heavily forested "local area"), generally, that attenuation does not seem to be overly (again generally) signficant - From what I can tell, perhaps somewhere in the range of 2~4db on higher UHF TV band frequencies when the leaves are ON trees vs. Leaves off. Since it takes as much as 50~55db of attenuation added into feedline(including estimation of 4db loss on Hi-UHF per 100ft of RG6) to lose a signal lock from local DTV stations, the attenuation from leaves/trees certianly doesn't seem significant in my case.


That is main reason why it's a little difficult for me to grasp why a receiver's AGC circuit would necessarily be the, defacto "primary" concern, here, and why I would like to see more info/field tests involving such matters as tree leaves+wind blowing the tree limbs around. I do know I've used 4 different ATSC receivers(DTC-100, Zenith HDV420, Hisense DB2010, ATSC receiver internal to Sony KD34XBR960 HDTV), and I've detected no apparent differences in performance concerning this matter among those 4 receivers. In fact, I've experienced little apparent indication of significant performance differences among those 4 receivers in any case.


My understanding also is that trees do not "cause" multipath. However, I suspect the varying attenuation factors involved(such as leaves on trees vs. leaves off trees on a "seasonal" basis, or when the wind blows the tree limbs around on a more "immediate" basis) can change(perhaps signficantly in some cases) the multipath conditions at a receiving site.


----------



## holl_ands

I recall the discussion re "differential gain" in the broadcast antenna was concerning impact to nearby listeners

(e.g. under 5 miles for Bob Chase example), but there was no discussion re how a "small" frequency response

error across the 6 MHz bandwidth impacted receiver performance.


Consider the fol. Dielectric White Paper comparing two different types of broadcast antennas:
http://www.dielectric.com/broadcast/slotted.asp 


The (probably worst case) Endfire antenna had differential gain errors as high as 4 dB, (fig 6a), which results in a differential delay of as much as 17 ns (fig 6b) at certain (close in) ranges. The (probably best case) Centerfed antenna had differential gain error of only 1.4 dB (fig 10a), resulting in differential delay of up to 7 ns (fig 10b) at certain (close in) ranges. Per Bob Chase's posted charts for his antenna, a down angle of 4 degrees corresponded to a range of 5 miles....of course YMMV.


Hence differential gain may be emblematic of an underlying broadcast antenna system deficiency, but uncompensated differential envelope delay is what will degrade ATSC receivers. For both of the above examples cited above, the "extra" differential delays will directly reduce the amount of multipath delay that can be corrected in the receiver's equalizer. It would probably take one of the latest 5th Gen ATSC Decoder chips to handle both the transmitter and multipath contributions. [Hopefully future Distributed Transmitter Networks would be far enough away to not cause even more problems....]


However, broadcast antennas may also have a local feedback system that provides pre-equalization in the exciter in order to minimize differential delay in the transmitted signal. This is primarily done to minimize the differential delay due to VSWR mismatch in the antenna system---but could also operate against differential gain.

What I would want to know is where is the "feedback" receiver is located (directly next to the broadcast tower?).

And could it be tweaked to minimize differential delay at the worst case range--at the expense of inducing a "small" amount of differential delay in the far field....


More on VSWR degradation to ATSC reception, expressed as an EVM (Error Vector Magnitude),

or more usually (erroneously) expressed as an increase in Noise Figure or a loss of sensitivity:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ic#post5399965 
http://www.tvantenna.tv/papers/PFactorsV.pdf 

and searching out other papers published in IEEE Trans on Broadcasting by O. Bendov, Denise Schnelle and R. Evans Wetmore.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *islandlad* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> please comment on what i'm thinking of buying to get some TV reception...Am behind trees & about 300' above sea level...
> 
> 
> Channel Master CM 3671 Deepest Fringe Crossfire Series
> 
> Antenna (CM3671)
> 
> Channel Master CM 9521A Complete Antenna Rotator System with Infra-Red Remote Control (CM9521A)
> 
> thanks don



Sorry for the delay in response ... In general+without knowing more info that may be somewhat relevent concerning other choices you might have concerning specifics relevant to your location or operation of your local stations, your choices concerning equipment for your antenna setup seem to be good ones to me.


Only other things I might add is to stress(in a "seat of pants" way) that in some cases it can be of importance to find a spot to mount the antenna which provides a "sweet spot" for reception(up or down, right or left, back or forth even a foot or less from where you "planned" to put it can sometimes make a big difference, especially where the shorter UHF wavelentghs are involved), and to also be sure you have a sturdy mount concerning windloading considerations, and that it is also a very good idea to observe proper grounding procedures.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *islandlad* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> please comment on what i'm thinking of buying to get some TV reception...Am behind trees & about 300' above sea level...
> 
> 
> Channel Master CM 3671 Deepest Fringe Crossfire Series
> 
> Antenna (CM3671) $125
> 
> 
> Channel Master CM 9521A Complete Antenna Rotator System with Infra-Red Remote Control (CM9521A) $ about 90
> 
> 
> thanks don



If trees are causing signal level fluctuations, I would suggest using a stacked antenna arrangement,

This would tend to have a good signal level on one or the other antenna and coincident dropouts

on both antennas would be much less frequent.


A conventional RF Combiner would experience a 4 dB insertion loss whenever one of the antennas suffered

a signal loss....so I would also recommend the low loss (0.2 dB) Lindsay Coupler (about $100 delivered).


Although the Crossfire is probably a good VHF antenna, the UHF gain is several dB lower than the CM-4228 or 91XG.

The 8-Bay CM-4228 has useful gain for the upper VHF channels CH7-13 and less so for CH2-6.


I believe that the CM-4228 will also provide better protection against signals coming and going

between the trees, since it has eight distributed active elements vs the one on most other antennas.

So even if you aren't ready to launch a stacked antenna system, you might want to start with just a single CM-4228.


Hence the old adage still applies: separate VHF and UHF-only antennas are preferred.


So I would recommend starting with a $50 CM-4228.

Depending on how that works, you may need to add a second CM-4228

and a $100 Lindsay Coupler.

If the CM-4228 isn't doing the job for VHF, you could add a VHF-only antena.


It would help if you provided your zipcode and location to nearest cross streets.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The fol. more complete report also addresses tuner design, diversity antennas, VSWR degradation and related issues:
> http://www.atsc.org/news_informatio..._Assessment.pdf



Yes, However, That report is not as complete as the report at link I provided concerning the field tests it covers, or the methodology used. Note that I also specifically mentioned the report at link I provided as it was directly relevant to the links I quoted from your previous post concerning the links(slides/etc) from Zenith site.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If trees are causing signal level fluctuations, I would suggest using a stacked antenna arrangement, This would tend to have a good signal level on one or the other antenna and coincident dropouts on both antennas would be much less frequent.



With all due respect, unless you are aware of info from this poster which I am not(especially as this is his first post here on AVSforum), or more specific info relating to his location, I do believe you may be putting the cart before the horse, here. He said he has trees, he didn't say whether or not he has any reception related difficulties due to those trees, nor does the fact he has trees suggest he will necessarily experience such difficulties.


[update] - Yes, I realize you said "if". One question concerning the above. I'm curious how much experience you've had with stacking broadband antennas for TV reception, and in how many cases you've seen concerning "trees causing signal fluctuations" with vertical and/or horizontal stack vs. a "well placed" single antenna, or in how many circumstances you've seen that the stack was required?



> Quote:
> Although the Crossfire is probably a good VHF antenna, the UHF gain is several dB lower than the CM-4228 or 91XG. The 8-Bay CM-4228 has useful gain for the upper VHF channels CH7-13 and less so for CH2-6.



I'm curious, what info are you using to detirmine "several db" of additional gain on certian frequencies is going to be useful, or necessary in this case ?


While it is true CM4228 offers useful VHF gain on channel 7-13, its directivity on VHF is another matter.



> Quote:
> Hence the old adage still applies: separate VHF and UHF-only antennas are preferred.



What is "preferred" depends upon circumstances. For instance, many folks are likely looking for a single antenna solution, perhaps rather than some of the more complicated possible solutions as detailed in your post - also keep in mind more mast space is required for multiple antennas.


CM3671 is among the best, hi-gain single antenna(Broadband VHF+UHF) solutions I know of [update], including in terms of gain on UHF, and directivity wise.


update: Oh, especially if this is fringe reception we are discussing, a preamp may be benefical for him as well.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> > do you see any interference/intermod effects from the local Toledo stations?
> 
> 
> What does intermod look like? Is there an example online?



Having some extra time, I thought I might provide some comments on the above, as If I recall correctly, I don't believe anyone has commented on it so far.


While I haven't done the "math" nor can I say with 100% certianity that intermodulation distortion is the "direct cause"(although appropriately tuned notch filters for the "on-channel" signal certianly do get "rid of" these issues) -- I can *sometimes* spot what I'll call "tuner or preamp overload" problems from such evidence as :


Signs of Signals from NTSC analog stations "showing up" on frequencies where they shouldn't be -- such as say, channel 2 showing up to some extent on UHF 60, or Portions of "ugly" video transmitted on VHF channel 7(or even "mixtures" of video/audio signals from different stations) "showing up" on cable channel 22(obviously setting the TV to use cable channels with the antenna) ... Using a TV which doesn't "mute" the screen when interference laden or "weak" signals are present can be beneifical for this, as in my case is one particular set I have(samsung TXN2668) that allows you to turn off AFT and tune "manually"(it even lets you "save" your manual tuning setting per channel), and it also has an additional LNA "inside" the TV which can be turned off/on selectively by channel. An "old" TV with mechanical tuners+"manual" tuning may be somewhat beneficial here as well.


BTW, you can also sometimes spot this problem with FM carriers(which could be from other sources besides FM broadcast -- such as the audio carrier from a NTSC TV station, or other narrowband FM signals), FM interference appearing generally as diagonal "lines" on an NTSC video signal ...


With digital - I expect in most cases using such methods as the above to spot such problems would probably be pretty much impossible -- Although, I have noticed it is sometimes possible to recognize a on channel 8VSB signal with a analog NTSC receiver via the appearance of such "indicators" as "big, Horizontal snow", depending upon such factors as the TV's AFT, and/or how you have "manual tuning" adjusted, if any such option is available.


Attached is a set of screenshots providing an example of 8VSB signals as "detected" on an NTSC tuner. These were taken with digital camera of the "snow" that resulted on certian channels via one particular RCA TV I used to have whose AFT "found" these when tuning to a channel with a ATSC signal. In the case of the AFT for this TV, it would only "work", for example, if there wasn't an upper adjacent channel DTV signal present. At Top left is evidence of a particularly strong on Channel ATSC signal, Top right is a somewhat weaker on channel ATSC signal, Bottom left is a on-channel ATSC signal just a few DB above threshold(with a ATSC receiver, of course), Bottom right is of a channel with no detectable "signal" present. (Note: the "horizontal" darker areas I believe are due to camera's shutter speed) ...


----------



## Youngblood




> Quote:
> If you want to spend time and money improving your signal reliability, spend it on the antenna, the mast, the preamplifier or the aiming.




I do agree for that comment.


----------



## roguepirate

Hello everybody i just got my HD tv and am looking for an indoor antenna (i'm unable to mount an outdoor one) that works well. I recently tried the Terk HDTVi and that did not work well at all. I can get certain channels but it was really suceptible to interference from people walking in the room and it didn't really lock in any channels.


The television is on the 2nd floor, and the window facing east.

Zip Code: 91789

Height: 685 feet


any help or suggestions are well appreciated, thanks.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RayL Jr.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks Youngblood, looks like a cool accessory, added it in the list @ start of thread.



I am surely the largest customer of signal filters here, since I install multi-antenna arrays for large buildings, so I went to the opening post to see just what filtering product was being added to the list, but all I found was a link to the seller of some cheap, high-pass filters that are used to steal PPV programming from the cable companies. $45 for the standard model and $60 for the HDTV model. Last I checked, comparable filters were available on eBay for about $5 each....


Is there any legal use for this product?


----------



## markrubin

Moderator


please do not discuss or link to any devices intended to steal cable services: it violates AVS rules and is certainly illegal


posts will be edited/deleted


Thank you


----------



## RayL Jr.

OK, links out...


----------



## tv4u

I need some help with selecting an antenna or antennas.


To keep from starting a new thread I just joined in on this one since it is the closest that I could find. I am from Houston, MS 38851.


I have a Hitachi 57S700 TV and I am wanting to receive the HD and analog broadcasts in my area.


Here is my broadcast information:

Station--VHF/UHF/DTV--Orientation in degrees--miles -- Channel -- Frequency

CBS-----DTV-----122-----15.5-----4.1----35

CBS-----VHF-----122-----15.5------4------4

FOX-----DTV-----169-------5.5-----27-----27

FOX-----UHF-----169-------5.5-----27.1--16

NBC-----VHF-----169-------5.5------9------9

ABC-----UHF-----169-------5.5-----45----45


Would like to get this one too but not near as important

PBS-----VHF-----184-----36.1-------2------2


I would also like to use this to pick up FM radio stations. Most radio stations are 45 plus miles away.


Do I need one antenna or more than one?

Which antenna do you suggest for my situation?

Will I need a rotor?

My wife would rather have an attic mount but would probly go along with the antenna outside if I can keep it where it is not so obvious from the road. Like maybe on the southwest corner of our house.


Here is what I am wanting to wire this I have 6 locations that need to receive the antenna signal and I have Direct TV that I need to run to one receiver in the living room.


I have a distribution box in my attic toward the north end of my house, the dish is on the north end but the antenna needs to be on the south end where the television station transmitters will be in line of sight.


Therefore I am looking a about a 60' run fo cable from the antenna to the distribution location. From there all the runs should be less than 100' except for maybe 2, they may run just a little over.


Can I do an attic mount or do I need an outside mount?

Do I just split the signal in the attic withe splitters or do I need a distribution amp?

Do I need pre-amp and amps.

Do I need a direct run from the antenna to the living room which closer to the south end of the house where the antenna will be if I do an outside mount?


I am lost please help, ask any questions that I may not have answered.


Thanks


----------



## Konrad2

> CBS-----DTV-----122-----15.5-----4.1----35

> CBS-----VHF-----122-----15.5------4------4


I assume this is the same station. Do you know which frequency

the digital broadcast will be on after the analog goes away?

If the digital will stay on channel 34, consider getting a good

UHF-only antenna for this, and try rabbit ears tuned for channel 4.

If the digital will move to channel 4 I'd go the other way around

and look at getting a good VHF antenna for it, possibly a single

channel model if you don't expect additional stations in that

direction. Remember that the analog broadcasts are scheduled

to go away in a couple years.


You can probably get the 169 and 184 stations with a single antenna.


> Will I need a rotor?


Personally I'd avoid a rotor since it can only point in one direction

at a time. If two people want to watch shows in different directions

you have a problem. And getting a VCR/DVR to control a rotor would be a

hassle. Instead I'd try one antenna for CBS and one for all the others.

You can insert the CBS channel(s) into the main feed with something

like a CM Join-tenna, although I'd try and find a shielded version.

Or you can have two coax runs and a switchbox. But this could be a

hassle with 6 locations, and again you have the DVR control problem.


> Can I do an attic mount or do I need an outside mount?


You don't say how much room there is in your attic, or what type of

material the antennas will be looking through. If you have a metal

roof and aluminum siding, or dense materials like stone/brick/slate,

good luck. If there is plenty of room, and little or no metal, give

it a try. If it works in the attic you don't have to worry about

wind, corrosion, etc.


> Do I need pre-amp and amps.


Try it without an amp first. If you get significant snow on analog

channels an amp will probably help. Some of your stations are close

enough to worry about overloading the amp. A preamp will have less

noise than a dist amp, and will probably have a switchable FM trap,

which you might need. A dist amp is less likely to overload. I'd

try a low gain Winegard preamp with FM trap.


> I would also like to use this to pick up FM radio stations. Most

> radio stations are 45 plus miles away.


If you have any nearby FM stations, you might need to keep the FM and TV

separate. Keeping the non-TV stuff out can be as important as getting

the TV stuff in.


----------



## tv4u

" CBS-----DTV-----122-----15.5-----4.1----35

CBS-----VHF-----122-----15.5------4------4


I assume this is the same station. Do you know which frequency

the digital broadcast will be on after the analog goes away?"



Yes this is the same station and no I don't know which frequency they will keep using.



" You can probably get the 169 and 184 stations with a single antenna."



Which antenna do you suggest I have one now from radio shack which is mounted in the attic it is about 80 inches long and it does pretty good but 45 is not coming in worth anything and it is on the same transmiiter as channel 9 which comes in real good. I called the station and they said that 45 is on low power right now for some reason.




"Instead I'd try one antenna for CBS and one for all the others.

You can insert the CBS channel(s) into the main feed with something

like a CM Join-tenna, although I'd try and find a shielded version."



Again which atenna or antennas do you suggest? Explain a little more about the Join-tenna I have never heard of that, don't have a clue. How would you wire for it.







"You don't say how much room there is in your attic, or what type of

material the antennas will be looking through"



I have a pretty good bit of room in there althouth there is bracing every so for apart. I have a 80 inch length antenna in there now and could probably not go any larger. The roof is plywood with fiberglass shingles the wall all the way up on the side of the house where the antenna has to aim is brick.






"I'd try a low gain Winegard preamp with FM trap."



Again this is something I know nothing about. Do you have a link for me?





"If you have any nearby FM stations, you might need to keep the FM and TV

separate."


I should have said all FM stations are 40 miles or more from me.




What about the length of cable run?


I have 2 antennas one is the Radio Shack that I mentioned earlier which I am currently using and the other is a Channel Master CM 4228 8-Bay Bowtie UHF Antenna. Is there a way to combine these two antennas for me to get the maximum performance that I am looking for or do I need to start all over or what.



Thank you for your respons. Anyone else is also welcome to join in.


thanks

tv4u


----------



## Konrad2

>> " You can probably get the 169 and 184 stations with a single antenna."

>

> Which antenna do you suggest I have one now from radio shack which is

> mounted in the attic it is about 80 inches long and it does pretty good

> but 45 is not coming in worth anything and it is on the same transmiiter

> as channel 9 which comes in real good. I called the station and they said

> that 45 is on low power right now for some reason.

...

> the other is a Channel Master CM 4228 8-Bay Bowtie UHF Antenna.


Have you tried to get channel 45 using the CM 4228?

The CM4228 has a pretty good reputation and is considered by many as one

of the best UHF antennas available. (I haven't tried it myself.)


Most Radio Shack products do not enjoy a good reputation.


You might try:


Point Radio Shack antenna at CBS. I'm assuming RS antenna is

a VHF/UHF combo.


Point CM 4228 at Fox/NBC/ABC. The CM4228 has some gain

at channel 9, you might get lucky. See graph at bottom of

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


Although according to the graph, the gain varies by about 5 dB

across the channel, which might cause problems?


Try rabbit ears tuned for channel 2. If that doesn't work

well enough, or if CM4228 can't get chan 9, get a good VHF

antenna for 2 and 9.


A good antenna for channel 2 will be large, due to the wavelength. You might

want to find out if that station will remain on channel 2 after the analog

shutoff. If it will move to VHF-HI (chan 7-13) you could get a VHF-HI antenna

that will be smaller than one that does all of 2-13. If it will move to UHF

you should be able to get it with the CM4228.


> The roof is plywood with fiberglass shingles the wall all the way up on the

> side of the house where the antenna has to aim is brick.


I'd guess you have a good chance going through plywood with fiberglass shingles.

If the antenna has to "look" through brick (e.g. a gable) there will be a lot

of attenuation, especially for UHF.


> Explain a little more about the Join-tenna I have never heard of that, don't

> have a clue. How would you wire for it.


The idea is you have a band-reject filter in the main feed at the frequency

of the station on the aux antenna. You also use a band-pass filter on the aux

antenna. Then you can combine the signals together without getting multipath.

In your case you have two chanels on the aux antenna, so you'd first run the aux

antenna through a 2-way splitter, and then use 2 join-tennas, one for chan 4 and

one for chan 35.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/G...html#jointenna 


I've seen a nice wiring diagram explaining the jointenna, possibly earlier in

this thread. Try the forum's thread search. If not, perhaps google can find it.


See also: Pico-Macom SC-4, MX4U, MX7
http://www.picomacom.com/macom/products/catalog-C1.htm 


Winegard VF-4000
http://www.winegard.com/offair/trapsfilters.htm 


Tin Lee
http://www.tinlee.com/ 


> What about the length of cable run?


Might hurt things slightly if you keep the antennas in the attic and don't use an amp.

If you go with an amp or put the antennas outdoors or both, the cable length should be

fine. I would worry more about the quality and condition of the cable than the length.

Weather/sunlight/water/critters take their toll on cable that is outdoors. I suggest

RG6-quad-shield. If you want to avoid an amp, RG11-quad-shield will have slightly less

loss, but probably isn't worth the hassle and expense. You can get RG6QS with factory

attached connectors at Lowes. The "quad-shield" will help keep bad stuff out. Shielding

is your friend.


>> "I'd try a low gain Winegard preamp with FM trap."

>

> Again this is something I know nothing about. Do you have a link for me?

http://www.winegard.com/ 
http://www.winegard.com/manuals.htm 
http://www.solidsignal.com/manu_disp...&manu=Winegard 

http://www.winegard.com/offair/separatorsjoiners.htm 
http://www.blondertongue.com/ 
http://www.channelmaster.com/ 
http://www.antennacraft.net/ 
http://www.picomacom.com/ 
http://www.mpja.com/ 
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/ 
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm 
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/Att1.htm 
http://www.summitsource.com/ 
http://www.summitsource.com/antennas...s-c-47_48.html 
http://www.weisd.com/ 
http://www.weisd.com/store2/1290LIST.html 
http://www.solidsignal.com/ 
http://www.starkelectronic.com/


----------



## holl_ands

Second Channel Election Results:


WLOV-DT 27.1 (FOX) elected to stay on CH16

WCBI-DT 4.1 (CBS) elected to stay on CH35

WKDH-DT 45.1 (ABC) elected to stay on CH45


WTVA-DT 9.1 (NBC) elected to CHANGE from CH57 back to VHF CH9 (deadline is Feb 2009)

However, due to excessive interference, this has not been approved by the FCC

and may result in some other channel election:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...A-06-991A1.pdf 


WMAB-DT 2.1 (PBS) will remain on VHF CH10 (Miss. State, 184 deg, 35.9 miles, low power 4.3 kW)


First four are "yellow" antenna recommendations per antennaweb.org,

whereas (thus far) low-power PBS is "purple" .

If they raise the power, it could become much easier to receive....


So it looks like you may need both VHF and UHF antennas.

And except for low power PBS, you're in the strong signal strength region.


The narrow beamwidth of your current antennas can not even begin to cover the 47 degrees of separation without a rotator.


Most any inexpensive, non-amplified, widebeamwidth antenna should do the UHF job,

such as the Terk HDTVi (with VHF Rabbit Ears), Loop/Rabbit Ears, Silver Sensor (plus VHF Rabbit Ears),

or if you like, the widebeamwidth CM-4221 4-Bay. Probably doesn't even need to be in the attic.


Although it is possible that you are "below" the main transmit antenna beams,

you could also be picking up strong reflections from a few miles away.....

Which is why you should try pointing the antenna in all directions to find the "sweet spots".

Nulling out reflections from one direction may be the antenna's primary function, rather than simply pointing toward the towers.


Since you are only 5.5 miles away from high power towers, you need to be very, very careful not to overload your system.

You may be experiencing overload with your current high-gain antenna arrangement....

Although the loss through cable downlead and RF Splitters could help.


----------



## holl_ands

You should check your local thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...dh#post7570171 


WKDH on CH45 (ABC) reportedly has not yet changed over from analog to digital....still waiting on FCC approval...


It also looks like WMAA on CH43 (PBS?) in nearby Columbus is also converting from analog to digital....timeframe unknown:
http://radiostationworld.com/locatio...i/tv.asp?m=col


----------



## AntAltMike

Pico's MX4U, a tunable, 4-input UHF bandpass filter/combiner, has been out of production for about a decade and is nearly impossible to find. Its case shielding is not tight, and so it doesn't work well when the signal strength differential between essential channels is great.


Their tunable BPF-UHF, which was an excellent product, is also out of production.


----------



## HD74

After several years of testing various tuners and antennas, I wandered into best buy last week, and saw a Sylvania STB, I got it, it came with an indoor amplified antenna, that worked OK. There was also a jack for a "smart antenna". I decided to try it. Best Buy doesn't carry it, found it at sams club(?). I set it up in my office last week. I am quite surprised at the performance of this omni-mast mount antenna. It has 16 lobes in it and remembers where the best signal is for each channel. Reception from the heart of Lansing includes all locals, plus Ann Arbor, Flint, and Grand Rapids. Hands down better than any omni I have tried in the past.


----------



## Geordon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HD74* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> found it at sams club(?). I set it up in my office last week. I am quite surprised at the performance of this omni-mast mount antenna. It has 16 lobes in it and remembers where the best signal is for each channel. Reception from the heart of Lansing includes all locals, plus Ann Arbor, Flint, and Grand Rapids. Hands down better than any omni I have tried in the past.



Can you give more specifics as to what to look for at Sam's Club? Was it at Edgewood, or East Town Centre? I am in Mason, and my Dat75 works great for K'zoo, G.R., Flint, and most Lansing, except WILX, which is spotty on my Fusion5 and no signal on my Panny Plasma.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tv4u* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Which antenna do you suggest I have one now from radio shack which is mounted in the attic it is about 80 inches long and it does pretty good but 45 is not coming in worth anything and it is on the same transmiiter as channel 9 which comes in real good. I called the station and they said that 45 is on low power right now for some reason....
> 
> 
> Thank you for your respons. Anyone else is also welcome to join in.



Assuming that is probably a RS VU-90 XR VHF/UHF combo antenna ( see here : http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=family or here : http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/VU-90XR.html ), I'd probably start with moving it outside, perhaps on a "temporary/testing" basis and see what you get with it with a little "manual rotation" to perhaps get a better idea concerning whether or not a rotor or other options may be desired, or required. You might want to start with it aimed "roughly" SE or SSE and see what happens before trying more precise aiming for your various stations in different directions. If desired, You might want to try the same with the CM4228 while you are at it to "see what you get", perhaps especially(if necessary) concerning your reception of the station on 45.


If some of the signals are "too strong", adding attentional attenuation in feedline(such as splitters or attenuators - there is a max -20db variable attenuator available at Radio shack) should be benefical(at least where the stronger signals are concerned), and also perhaps give you a bit of an idea concerning what you'll be able to get away with concerning your plan for distributing feed from antenna to 6 different spots receviers .... Each 2 way splitter is about 3.5db of loss, 100FT RG6 is about 4db loss per 100FT on UHF.


-------------------------


As Holl_ands mentioned, I'd also recommend checking out your local thread, as you can probably find reports and suggestions there from others in your area which may be useful, concerning their reception+what equipment they are using for their antenna setup.


----------



## holl_ands

Your antennaweb.org results summary:


ANTENNA/CALL/VIRTUAL/NTWK/DEG/MILES/REAL CHAN

yellow-uhf WLOV 27 FOX 169° 5.5 27

* yellow-uhf WLOV-DT 27.1 FOX 169° 5.5 16 [DTV Channel Election]

yellow-uhf WKDH 45 ABC 169° 5.5 45

* yellow-uhf WKDH-DT 45 ABC 169° 5.5 45 TBD [DTV changeover "soon"??]

yellow-vhf WTVA 9 NBC 169° 5.5 9 [DTV Channel Election Denied]

[WTVA-DT refiled for CH8 in recent Third Round]

* yellow-uhf WTVA-DT 57 NBC 169° 5.5 57 FCC Ext


* yellow-uhf WCBI-DT 4.1 CBS 122° 15.5 35 [DTV Channel Election]

yellow-vhf WCBI 4 CBS 122° 15.5 4


blue-uhf WMAV 18 PBS 310° 44.9 18


blue-vhf WMAB 2 PBS 184° 36.1 2

* violet-vhf WMAB-DT 2.1 PBS 184° 36.0 10 [DTV Channel Election]


violet-uhf W30BY 30 TBN 260° 41.6 30


violet-vhf WMAE 12 PBS 20° 58.4 12

violet-vhf WHBQ 13 FOX 335° 99.3 13

violet-vhf WABG 6 ABC 247° 89.6 6


[I deleted some unlikely results....such as UHF at 80+ miles.....really????]


===========================================

The above HDTVPrimer link only provides the antenna pattern for the VHF part of the R-S VU-90XR.

Note the very wide beamwidth for the lower VHF channels (CH2-6),

and very wide beamwidth (about 30 degrees) for upper VHF channels (CH7-13).

Also note the typical sidelobe nulls at about +/- 30 degrees.

So as long as it's pointed generally South to SE, it should readily pick up CH 2 (PBS), 4 (CBS), 9 (NBC) and 10 (PBS-DT).

Although CH12 (PBS) would be on the backside of the antenna, it still might surprise you with an appearance--but don't count on it.


============================================

Now let's consider how well the current antenna is performing for UHF (at least in theory)....


The VU-90XR appears to be similiar if not the same as the CM3016,

the front UHF section of which appears closest to the CM4308 Corner Yagi--which has a +/- 3 dB

beamwidth of 56 degrees for CH14, decreasing to only 31 degrees for CH60.
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg5.htm 
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg4.htm 


So if you pointed it towards 145 degrees (half-way between 169 degrees and 122 degrees),

CH57 would be about 24 degrees away from the beam max.

However this is close to the typical sidelobe nulls (see CM4018 antenna pattern plot at +/- 30 degrees).


So to bring CH57 out of the sidelobe null, you would need to slightly reorient the antenna to

about 154 degrees, leaving Columbus stations in the other sidelobe null....letting in mostly mutipath...


So it appears that you need something.....different....

Since the beamwidth of the CM4228 is even narrower, viable alternatives would include

either one of the wider beamwidth antennas I mentioned above...or a dual antenna arrangement.


----------



## holl_ands

Dual antenna arrangements can be tricky, so determine how each antenna performs alone

and then see if you lose any stations when you combine them.


Of course, you might want to mount one of the antennas on a rotator with a separate downlead

to the "primary" HDTV and let the other antenna feed the existing house system.

If you have room, you might be able to use the CM-4228 with a rotator in the attic, rather than on the roof.


You can start with the R-S VHF/UHF Combo pointed towards about 175 degrees (half-way between 169 and 184 degrees).

This results in your best VHF antenna being used for the more "distant" CH2 and CH10.


The CM-4228 can then be pointed towards 122 degrees to pick up digital CBS on 4.1 (CH35) and probably/possiby analog CBS on CH4.


There are lots of ways to combine two antenna systems....

You could start with an RF Splitter ("reversed" with antennas on two OUT ports and IN port connected to downlead).


Can we presume that the R-S Combo picks up CH4 just fine and thus the CM-4228 is only needed to add digital CBS?

A better way to add one and only one channel is to use a JoinTennna:
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm 


A JoinTenna is special order for a particular channel (e.g. CH35). One of the ports passes ONLY that channel to the downlead,

whereas the other port passes ALL channels EXCEPT that channel to the downlead....give or take some adjacent channels....

This minimizes the multipath injected from one antenna's signals into the other.

Whether you need the JoinTenna won't become obvious until you do some comparisons with and without both antennas combined.


----------



## holl_ands

You must mean the DTA-5000 Smart Antenna (by DX ANTENNA aka Funai/Sylvania/Sharp)

with the Sylvania 6900DTE OTA STB (aka Funai STB-400E),

which is thus far the one and only OTA Receiver with Smart Antenna interface:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...na#post5826625 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...00#post5979741 

See above link for comparison test--it fared about the same as a larger 4-Bay antenna with Preamp,

and was eventually beat out by the 8-Bay CM4228 with Preamp.


Apparently it only performs the antenna adaptation process when you command it to,

so every few days I have to command it to repeat the entire process (15-20 minutes).

It's in dire need of a "Readapt Current Channel" command.


Here's SamsClub link to OTA STB:
http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/nav...=5&item=330411 

and Smart Antenna
http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/nav...=5&item=170730 


===========================================

PS: Since the Smart Antenna MUST receive controls from the STB, it WILL NOT work with any other OTA Receiver.

However, DX ANTENNA also makes the DTA-3500 which has some sort of manual controls:
http://www.dxantenna.co.jp/english/p.../products.html 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...om=zoomB#xview 
http://www.amazon.com/Sharp-DTA-3500...dp/B00022O9VW/


----------



## Nitewatchman

I stand by my previous suggestions. In summary --- Try the antenna(s - one at a time) you have first, outdoors on a "temporary/testing" basis, with "manual" rotation(as necessary), if for no other reason to get a better idea of what you have to work with, and what you may want to think about trying, next.


You would really probably need a on-site test by a pro-antenna installer for more realistic and "scientific" recommendations than it is likely any of us will be able to provide here.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Although CH12 (PBS) would be on the backside of the antenna, it still might surprise you with an appearance--but don't count on it.



I believe he said that station might not be of uptmost importantce to him, in any case, I do agree a rotor will probably end up being beneficial for him ..


Hence one of the reasons why I suggested he try his existing antenna outdoors, and with "manual rotation" first, to see what sorts of results he achieves with his current antenna(s) before thinking too much about other possible solutions, and what he may want to do. I only suggested the SE direction first as a place to start.


Personally, at this point, FWIW I probably wouldn't mess around too much with Jointennas and the like before analog shut off, or at least until the DTV table of allotments are "set in stone" for post-transistion. But, that's just me.


Unfortunetly, I don't think there is any implementation of CEA-909 "smartenna" interface and appropriate antenna/receivers which would necessarily work well for him given multiple sets/receivers/etc, otherwise, such a solution as you've tried with the "smartenna" and the Sylvania/funai STB which supports it would seem to me to perhaps be an "optimal"(although expensive) solution in this case ... Although, such a solution still may be a good one for a "primary" set, with, along the lines of something you've just mentioned in last post, another antenna used for the other sets ....



> Quote:
> Now let's consider how well the current antenna is performing for UHF (at least in theory)....



In practice, I suspect the difference between the antenna's "real world" performance for reception from the stations desired in the attic(as is the current case), and mounted outdoors will probably likely be substantial.



> Quote:
> The VU-90XR appears to be similiar if not the same as the CM3016,



Its similar in appearance, but, unless something has changed, I do not believe it is "the same". You could probably just as well pull up the specs for the Winegard PR7010(available in PDF format from winegard site) and base your predictions on likely somewhat similar, but also equally (somewhat)incorrect info.



> Quote:
> So it appears that you need something.....different....



I think Appearances can sometimes be "deceiving" concerning real world performance vs. our expectations based on "theory" ....



> Quote:
> Since the beamwidth of the CM4228 is even narrower, viable alternatives would include either one of the wider beamwidth antennas I mentioned above...or a dual antenna arrangement.



I expect a CM4221 may especially be a good choice for UHF in his circumstance, perhaps he could use it for UHF, and use the VU90 only for VHF(or another relatively "small" VHF broadband antenna). Since I believe he indicated he was interested in analog reception as well, I'm doubtful he will acheive an acceptable quality signal for his low-VHF analog with any UHF antenna .... Although, he would still need to use a rotor for optimal reception of all "possible" stations with that setup, just perhaps not quite as often as would be the case with a antenna with a much narrower beamwidth such as CM4228 or XG91 ...


Since it seems I wasn't able to get my "point" on this through the first time .... I'll repeat it again .... Again, my point was, if it were me, I would "see what happens" with his existing antenna(s) first to try to get a better idea of what I might be able to "get away" with - as I noted, on a "temporary/testing" basis and mounted outdoors, before spending more $ and time/effort exploring other options ..... I also expect he will have the oppurtunity to learn quite a bit more about the actual "reception conditions", and what he might need/want to do vs. anything any of us might "predict" concerning his reception, here.



> Quote:
> So if you pointed it towards 145 degrees (half-way between 169 degrees and 122 degrees), CH57 would be about 24 degrees away from the beam max.
> 
> However this is close to the typical sidelobe nulls (see CM4018 antenna pattern plot at +/- 30 degrees). So to bring CH57 out of the sidelobe null, you would need to slightly reorient the antenna to about 154 degrees, leaving Columbus stations in the other sidelobe null....letting in mostly mutipath...



Interesting how I can receive stations almost continuously, without dropouts(except over a few degrees or so where the sidelobe nulls are deepest) via an XG91 WHILE I'm rotating the antenna - 360 degrees all around(4th generation Zenith chipset), and there are *no* dropouts while I'm doing this up until 110 degrees "off target", meaning, including any nulls in the pattern between 0~110 degrees "off target" .... Of course, the wind isn't blowing the trees around currently, either










Interesting that I've heard reception reports from folks using VU90 and "similar" in similar situations as TV4u who receive excellent dropout free reception from all desired stations .....(well, not counting the stations of interest off the "back side") ....


NOW DON'T take that the wrong way. While I agree what you say here makes perfect sense, even if it isn't necessarily based on 100% accurate info on the VU90. HOWEVER, believe it or not, these things can, sometimes turn out better than what you may think .....


Oh, well. At least we don't have to "worry" about you recommending he use an antenna with "spilateral" technology ... (yes, I read OpenDTV as well, and yes, that is a joke) ...











> Quote:
> Of course, you might want to mount one of the antennas on a rotator with a separate downlead to the "primary" HDTV and let the other antenna feed the existing house system.



That, and much of your last post is very much along the lines, or "similar lines" of what I might be thinking about, depending upon how the "test" turns out with the current antenna outdoors+with manual rotation to see what all can be received, to see what extent other options for improvment(such as adding a rotor/multiple antennas/jointennas/etc) might be desired ... If he is going to DIY, what is desired+what is acceptable compromise is really something *he* probably has to work on and decide about, I think ....


----------



## holl_ands

The current Smart Antenna solution can not be shared with multiple receivers and must be used with the Sylvania 6900DTE OTA STB.

Hence I didn't bring it up....


After my first quick post primarily addressing channel election results,

I took the time to figure out what might be possible with the current antenna system.

It's always best to assess whether the current installation can be made to work,

rather than immediately going through the arduous process of removing from the attic

and setting up outdoors.


The antennas I cited are (almost?) idential in construction and it is well known

Channel Master manufactured several of R-S antennas.

The PR7010 is a significantly different design--and has significantly different antenna patterns.


Using R-S for VHF only and CM-4221 for UHF only should also be a viable Dual Antenna alternative.

However, it may be somewhat more susceptibe to multipath than using

a Jointenna with his current R-S and CM-4228 antennas.


Each approach has various pros and cons...


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: WTVA-DT refiled for CH8 in the just completed Third Round of DTV Elections.

Subject to FCC approval, of course...


I updated above list to reflect this info.


I also see from the FCC database that WMAA on CH43 (changing "sometime" to digital WMAA-DT)

only applied for 81 kW and their antenna has a 14.5 dB null in your direction.

Even so, with it being only 15.5 miles away, at some point it may become a viable PBS-DT option.


----------



## Nitewatchman

Going to try this one more time, after this, I'm going to give up and go back to lurking on this thread ...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The current Smart Antenna solution can not be shared with multiple receivers and must be used with the Sylvania 6900DTE OTA STB.
> 
> Hence I didn't bring it up....



Yes, and as I indicated in last post I am aware of that. You did, however bring up the possibility of using a seperate antenna for the "primary" HDTV .... Hence, I mentioned it as, it would seem to be a good solution to me in this case from a purely "reception based" standpoint, such as for solely the "primary HDTV" ....



> Quote:
> It's always best to assess whether the current installation can be made to work,
> 
> rather than immediately going through the arduous process of removing from the attic and setting up outdoors.



I don't believe there is *Any way*, in this particular case your *assessment* can definitively say the poster absolutely WILL NOT be able to acheive satisfactory results with the VU90 mounted outdoors with one heading used for the stations located at 122+169 degrees, or the stations at 169+184 degrees.


Concerning the "possibility" of this working as an acceptable compromise", another way I might say it might be something such as, "it probably isn't likely, and, for the UHF stations in this situation, you might be best off trying an antenna such as CM4221 -- however, my experience, and the reports of success from others in some cases in similar circumstances, and the fact that you have a VU90 on hand to try it also tells me it also may be worth a shot to try it ....."


In my case, I would not consider the process I suggested to be arduous. I suppose it's somewhat a matter of opinion, although don't assume others opinions on this are necessarily the same as yours.


Also, Personally, in addition to assesing the situation "theoretically" to some degree, I would also tend to want to see direct observation/experimentation concerning what happens with the antennas on hand(and outdoors) to gain a better understanding of the "real world" situation before spending more $, time and effort, on more antennas or rotors or jointennas, and also to have better, real world, direct evidence at hand to be able to better make decisions concerning what I might try to improve things, or concerning the compromises that may be involved.


Hence that is MY suggestion, FWIW, and there is nothing wrong with it. The poster asking the questions can take it or leave it.



> Quote:
> The antennas I cited are (almost?) idential in construction and it is well known that Channel Master has manufacturered several of R-S antennas.



I hadn't heard that. Could you provide a link with evidence on this? Thanks. In the past, I've often heard it was antennacraft which used to supply the antennas to Radio shack(don't know about presently), I do not know about the "advantage" series of CM antennas.



> Quote:
> The PR7010 is a significantly different design--and has significantly different antenna patterns.



Signficantly different Yes, but also "somewhat similiar" concerning overall performance and general antenna "type"(it's a mid-size VHF/UHF combo antenna with similar gain - and Beamwidth at 1/2 power points generally in the 30~40 degree range on mid~hI UHF according to the specs) ... Let's look at some pictures.


CM3016 :

http://www.channelmaster.com/images/3016.jpg 


RS VU90XR :

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=family 


As you said, very similar in construction and design. The pics are very little to "go on", and the pic on the RS site isn't a photograph ... however, if you notice, it seems apparent the "middle" two VHF elements on CM3016 are of more similar length than the RS VU90 graphic, which indicates the rear two VHF elements are instead, of more "similar" length. Also, on the VU90, two of the UHF corner reflector elements appear to be considerably longer, whearas they appear to be of similar length in the CM3016 pic .... There are also apparently 4 elements on each of the bottom+top reflectors on VU90, looks like only 3 each in the pic of CM3016 .... Hard to tell, but it looks like driven element on UHF section is closer to the first director element on the CM3016 ....


My point here is, I don't think we know enough at this point to "mix and match" unknown(theoretical) "specs" for VU90 with CM3016 or CM4308 as if they were the *same* antenna. Maybe they are, but where's the evidence that proves it?


Never mind, as it really doesn't matter anyway, as the CM3016 *may* "work" in this circumstance to some desireable extent(including on UHF) as might the VU90 .... And, they *may* not as well ...



> Quote:
> Using R-S for VHF only and CM-4221 for UHF only should also be a viable Dual Antenna alternative.
> 
> However, it may be somewhat more susceptibe to multipath than a using a Jointenna with his current R-S and CM-4228 antennas.
> 
> 
> Each approach has various pros and cons...



I agree with you, here -- however, VU90, perhaps with rotor is also a viable, "one size fits all" option as well, and who knows, It might even be preferred if only "one antenna" could be installed outdoors, and I doubt a CM4228 will perform as well on UHF indoors as the VU90 outdoors ..... Just depends on what the poster "wants", as I said *he* is the one that has to decide that, we can only offer suggestions in hopes it might help him out ....


And What? That's the best "assesment" you can "work out" ? ..."pros and cons" and "may be somewhat more susceptable to multipath?" Sounds like to me you're saying he'll need to "Try it" and see what is best "pro and con" wise.... Gee, sounds a lot like the same thing *I* am saying, imagine that ....










And BTW, I don't believe 80 mile "fringe" local reception on UHF is necessarily all that uncommon in The "Flat lands" of Texas, MS, La+Great plains states. I Also don't know if I'd "personally" consider ~4KW ERP for digital on VHF "low power", although, I suppose most posters on this forum might, and it is certianly 6~9db less than the more typical VHF-HI digital operation, which generally seems to be in 16~30KW ERP range. According to current FCC rules, Low power/class A digital stations on VHF (channel 2-13) are limited to 300Watts ERP .....


----------



## miked2023

Hey guys, Noob here so I apologize in advance - Got Direct TV HD DVR(with their antenna) yesterday - the local HD channels are either breaking up or in the case of ABC not working at all. After doing further research at antenna.org I realised that I'm 22 miles away from the transmitter - I assume this is the reason why. Can anything be done? Like a booster or something? Will the new Direct TV DVR that's supposed to come out address this problem? thanks.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *miked2023* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey guys, Noob here so I apologize in advance - Got Direct TV HD DVR(with their antenna) yesterday - the local HD channels are either breaking up or in the case of ABC not working at all. After doing further research at antenna.org I realised that I'm 22 miles away from the transmitter - I assume this is the reason why. Can anything be done? Like a booster or something? Will the new Direct TV DVR that's supposed to come out address this problem? thanks.



What kind of antenna are we talking about here?


----------



## miked2023

The one that comes with direct TV - I was trying to find a link but no go. I just realised though I get the HD feed on channels 86, 83, etc - so I think I'm all good, no? I'm a little confused what the difference is between these direct TV feeds )86, 87, etc) vs. picking it up off the antenna. thanks and sorry if this is the wrong forum.


----------



## mrtbig

Can someone answer this dish question?


I know I need at least the 3 LNB dish for HD, but will the newer ATR dish for MPG4 still work the the current HD10-250 and non HD tivo's?? Still want to use antenna for the local HD's.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *miked2023* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...I just realised though I get the HD feed on channels 86, 83, etc - so I think I'm all good, no? I'm a little confused what the difference is between these direct TV feeds )86, 87, etc) vs. picking it up off the antenna. thanks and sorry if this is the wrong forum.



Well, there is a good chance that you'll be losing the DNS feeds in the future. Also, I don't know where you live, but your locals are almost certainly different stations than the DNS stations.

....jc


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mrtbig* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can someone answer this dish question?
> 
> 
> I know I need at least the 3 LNB dish for HD, but will the newer ATR dish for MPG4 still work the the current HD10-250 and non HD tivo's?? Still want to use antenna for the local HD's.



Yes.


----------



## miked2023




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, there is a good chance that you'll be losing the DNS feeds in the future. Also, I don't know where you live, but your locals are almost certainly different stations than the DNS stations.
> 
> ....jc




Yes the locals are different (Los Angeles). That sucks I'm going to lose the DNS feeds - are they going to come up with something else to replace? My antenna gets really bad HD reception. Sorry if this is in the wrong section, if so, perhaps someone can point me to the right forum.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *miked2023* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes the locals are different (Los Angeles). That sucks I'm going to lose the DNS feeds - are they going to come up with something else to replace? My antenna gets really bad HD reception. Sorry if this is in the wrong section, if so, perhaps someone can point me to the right forum.



As long as you mention 'Antenna', I think that you're ok.







Never-The-Less, are you saying that you are in the LA DMA, or that's where the DNS feeds are from?







W/O your location(Zip Code) it's hard for people in this forum to be of assistance.









....jc


----------



## miked2023




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As long as you mention 'Antenna', I think that you're ok.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Never-The-Less, are you saying that you are in the LA DMA, or that's where the DNS feeds are from?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> W/O your location(Zip Code) it's hard for people in this forum to be of assistance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....jc




I'm in LA - Sherman Oaks to be exact. Zip 91411. thanks.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *miked2023* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm in LA - Sherman Oaks to be exact. Zip 91411. thanks.



Ok, Mike, U s/b set. I'm surprised that they didn't install you with MPEG4. Since LA is the 'home' of the West feed to HD DNS, I'm not sure of your status(Will they be turning it off because you have HD LIL?). And, why did they give you a new MPEG2 DVR(When they are already obsolete)? Whatever.


22 Miles is 'A Drop in the Bucket'. If there are sizeable obstructions between you and the towers that could be a problem. But, again, 22 miles is not far. You may need to experiment with your antenna location. Or, perhaps get a better antenna. Maybe a preamp(especially if your cable run is long).


There are many here who live in that area, and have better knowledge of that environment than I, and will be better able to give you ideas.


Good Luck!

....jc


----------



## miked2023

Thanks for your help. Now that I understand it a little better, I can see why my posts were somehat confusing. Hopefully I can keep my DNS feed b/c I live in the same market it comes from (can anyome confirm this.) As far as Mpeg 4 - Direct TV said they don't have it yet - and that they'd do an upgrade when the new one comes in - they'd better not charge me! Thanks again.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ok, Mike, U s/b set. I'm surprised that they didn't install you with MPEG4. Since LA is the 'home' of the West feed to HD DNS, I'm not sure of your status(Will they be turning it off because you have HD LIL?). And, why did they give you a new MPEG2 DVR(When they are already obsolete)? Whatever.
> 
> 
> 22 Miles is 'A Drop in the Bucket'. If there are sizeable obstructions between you and the towers that could be a problem. But, again, 22 miles is not far. You may need to experiment with your antenna location. Or, perhaps get a better antenna. Maybe a preamp(especially if your cable run is long).
> 
> 
> There are many here who live in that area, and have better knowledge of that environment than I, and will be better able to give you ideas.
> 
> 
> Good Luck!
> 
> ....jc



Mike - check out your local area OTA HD thread if you're interested in improving your OTA reception.


----------



## HD74

Antenna was only available from sams club online. (and several other online shops, but more$$$) I have not had to re-set it since I installed it, don't know why you would have to. It only works with a STB that has a smart antenna jack, (kind of a goofy looking RJ-45) I'm using a Sylvania receiver which is the only one I've seen so far with the jack.


----------



## Oldfart

I've been trying to buy a CM 7777 for over a month now. Can anyone explain the back order problem with this rather common pre amp?


----------



## etcarroll

I can't speak to the back-order, but I have one I never used, it overloaded my signal. It's been sitting in it's box in my bookcase.


If you want, make an offer.


----------



## Konrad2

My house came with a Winegard Colortron VHF/FM antenna in the attic.


5 active elements

1 reflector at rear

5 shorter (~ 2 feet) directors(?) on top of beam (To help with VHF-HI?)


impedance matching board with:

2 coils

1 resistor

1 balun

jumper for 300 or 75 Ohm


Is anyone familiar with this antenna? Google didn't find it.

I suspect it is from the late 1960s or perhaps the 1970s.


I'm wondering what sort of gain and beam pattern this thing has?


----------



## Morpheus_Rising

Here's my Update: I bought another copy of Antenna's Direct XG-91 (UHF) antenna and I got Wade-Antenna'a VIP-307SR VHS/FM antenna. I also got the TB-105 Support Bearing (very hard to get).


I was planning on using a 2" metal pipe for the antenna mast and when I got the TB-105, I found out the hole for the antenna mast is 1.5" (4.0 cm). So, I went to Home Depot, Rona, and a local hardware store looking for a 1.5" OD x 10 foot long pipe to use for the antenna mast. At the local hardware store, I was talking to a staff member about the metal pipes, and when I told him I needed it for an antenna mast, he told me it won't work, there not strong enough and after awhile, the metal pipe would bend. (This is what happened to me the first time). He told me that I needed a specialized metal pipe (galvanized) made specifically for antennas and recomended I go to Radio Shack, Delphi, or this other company. I checked The Source:

http://www.thesourcecc.com/estore/Pr...roduct=1508017 


Radio Shack:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=family 


Channel Master:

http://www.channelmaster.com/pages/TVS/MountsHrdwr.htm 


Channel Master has 2: Dura-Tube model 1617 - 10 feet long, 1.5", 16 guage


Super Mast model 1615 - 10 feet long, 1.5", 16 guage


and finally Wade-Antenna:

http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/toweraccess.htm 


1.50/16g/10's Galvanized 1.50", 16 Gauge, 10 Foot Swaged



I'm having a hard time figuring this out. I have 3 questions:


1) the gauge - I'm assuming it is like copper wire, the lower the number, the higher the thickness (ie a 16 guage metal tube is thicker than an 18 or 20 guage.


2) the coating - some are galvanized (from what I have read it is a coating, zinc, that helps to prevent rust.) Some are "pre-galvanized" (I don't know what that means) and some are "hot-dip galvanized" (I don't know what that is).


The Channel Master Dura-Tube has a double powder coat painted overcoat. The Channel Master Supermast is pre-galvanized / hot-dip galvanized.


The Wade-Antenna's mast is "Induction welded, galvanized coating / "Pre-Galvanized".


I'm not sure what is the best coating to get.


3) Finally, The Channel Master and Wade-Antenna masts are "Swaged". I'm not sure what this means.


Once I get these questions answered, I can pick an antenna mast, order it, and then I can contact an installer and have my antenna up.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Morpheus_Rising* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> He told me that I needed a specialized metal pipe (galvanized) made specifically for antennas and recomended I go to Radio Shack, Delphi, or this other company.



Specialized, dogmeat! Call a chain link fence supply house. They should have galvy pipes of various diameters and thicknesses. They work like a champ. I've got a short tower with a heavy antenna(Winegard 8200) and high winds. So far, in 4 years, it's still up there taking the abuse!

....jc


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Morpheus_Rising* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm having a hard time figuring this out. I have 3 questions:
> 
> 
> 1) the gauge - I'm assuming it is like copper wire, the lower the number, the higher the thickness (ie a 16 guage metal tube is thicker than an 18 or 20 guage.
> 
> 2) the coating - some are galvanized (from what I have read it is a coating, zinc, that helps to prevent rust.) Some are "pre-galvanized" (I don't know what that means) and some are "hot-dip galvanized" (I don't know what that is).
> 
> The Channel Master Dura-Tube has a double powder coat painted overcoat. The Channel Master Supermast is pre-galvanized / hot-dip galvanized.
> 
> The Wade-Antenna's mast is "Induction welded, galvanized coating / "Pre-Galvanized".
> 
> I'm not sure what is the best coating to get.
> 
> 3) Finally, The Channel Master and Wade-Antenna masts are "Swaged". I'm not sure what this means.
> 
> Once I get these questions answered, I can pick an antenna mast, order it, and then I can contact an installer and have my antenna up.



Morpheous,


1 - The gauge is a measure of wall thickness. Your are correct in your assumption that smaller gauge is thicker material.

2 - Coatings. Galvanized is a form of rust prevention. Pre-galvanized tubing is made from galvanized sheet material that is rolled into a tube and welded. Hot-dipped galvanization is a process where the final product is dropped into a galvanization bath and then removed to dry. This coats the inside, the outside, and the welds with galvanized material. The latter is better but be wary of marketing claims - not everything is as it seems, epecially with consumer products.

3 - Swaged is a crimping process where the outside diameter of the tube is reduced. In this case, so that it will just fit inside another tube. This allows you to 'stack' the tubing to reach greater hights. However, if you do this, each section should have at least one support. For instance a three section stack on the side of the house should have at least three side-mounts attaching the stack to the house.


Both the hardware guys and Totallyprewired are correct, each in their own way. The metal used for antenna masts is stronger. However, as Totallyprewired said, many people use galvanized water pipe for a mast and it works well for them.


1" water pipe is the largest size of galvanized pipe that you can use with a 1.5" opening. If you need more than 10' of pipe, try to find a 20' length of water pipe rather than use a threaded coupling. The pipes bending strength is significantly reduced in the threaded portion.


If you are using a tripod mount, then mount the rotor low (just above the tripod) and the bearing high (just below the lower antenna). The double run of pipe will resist bending better than a single one.


If you are using a guyed installation, again, keep the bearing a high as possible. The less unsupported mast you have, the better off you are. This is particularly true in your situation because of the double antenna stack.


Bob Chase


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I recall the discussion re "differential gain" in the broadcast antenna was concerning impact to nearby listeners
> 
> (e.g. under 5 miles for Bob Chase example), but there was no discussion re how a "small" frequency response
> 
> error across the 6 MHz bandwidth impacted receiver performance.
> 
> 
> Consider the fol. Dielectric White Paper comparing two different types of broadcast antennas:
> http://www.dielectric.com/broadcast/slotted.asp
> 
> 
> The (probably worst case) Endfire antenna had differential gain errors as high as 4 dB, (fig 6a), which results in a differential delay of as much as 17 ns (fig 6b) at certain (close in) ranges. The (probably best case) Centerfed antenna had differential gain error of only 1.4 dB (fig 10a), resulting in differential delay of up to 7 ns (fig 10b) at certain (close in) ranges. Per Bob Chase's posted charts for his antenna, a down angle of 4 degrees corresponded to a range of 5 miles....of course YMMV.
> 
> 
> Hence differential gain may be emblematic of an underlying broadcast antenna system deficiency, but uncompensated differential envelope delay is what will degrade ATSC receivers. For both of the above examples cited above, the "extra" differential delays will directly reduce the amount of multipath delay that can be corrected in the receiver's equalizer. It would probably take one of the latest 5th Gen ATSC Decoder chips to handle both the transmitter and multipath contributions. [Hopefully future Distributed Transmitter Networks would be far enough away to not cause even more problems....]
> 
> 
> However, broadcast antennas may also have a local feedback system that provides pre-equalization in the exciter in order to minimize differential delay in the transmitted signal. This is primarily done to minimize the differential delay due to VSWR mismatch in the antenna system---but could also operate against differential gain.
> 
> What I would want to know is where is the "feedback" receiver is located (directly next to the broadcast tower?).
> 
> And could it be tweaked to minimize differential delay at the worst case range--at the expense of inducing a "small" amount of differential delay in the far field....
> 
> 
> More on VSWR degradation to ATSC reception, expressed as an EVM (Error Vector Magnitude),
> 
> or more usually (erroneously) expressed as an increase in Noise Figure or a loss of sensitivity:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ic#post5399965
> http://www.tvantenna.tv/papers/PFactorsV.pdf
> 
> and searching out other papers published in IEEE Trans on Broadcasting by O. Bendov, Denise Schnelle and R. Evans Wetmore.



Holl_ands,

the newer generation of exciters can both actively and passively modify the 8-VSB errors for best reception. The older exciters only had a moderate active compensation ability.

For instance, if we were staying on ch39, I might chose to use our existing waveguide and end-fed Trasar antenna. If we did this (and had one of the newer exciters) we could calculate the combined group delay of the transmission system (waveguide, coax, & antenna) and have that coded into eprom by the manufacturer of the exciter. This is what I'm calling passive compensation because it requires no engineering or tweaking after the 1st day, even though it does use active circuitry to do this.

The active adjustments in the exciters use a reflected signal sample from the transmission line (post mask filter) to constantly optimize amplitude, group delay, and phase. I don't know of any exciter that uses an outboard receiver to make the compensation adjustments.

Transmitter adjustment (tune-up) procedure is to disable all exciter automatic adjustments, sweep (and adjust) the tubes for flatness, then combine the tubes. Next you tune the manual correction stages of the exciter for maximum flatness and minimum group-delay & phase error. Finally, you turn the automatics back on. With the newer exciters, the correction is said to be significant. On my older exciter, sometimes I see improvement, sometimes I don't.

As for modifying the signal for close-in reception, I doubt anyone would want try that. We have a 2000' stick and it would require a new antenna to just get a decent enough signal to the folks closer in than 4 miles before we ever even considered a form of pre-correction for them. (As more viewers go wired, companies are less inclined to spend money up at 2000'.)

Now having said that, some stations transmitters are in downtown or residential areas. Typically, these stations would be in the Northeast, like the DC area. Because their towers are much shorter (because of the higher ground elevation) the stations covering these cities often have their antennas designed for very close-in reception. The charts I posted some while back are basically true for a 2000' stick with a center-fed antenna, using moderate null-fill. An antenna without null-fill would have larger (deeper) valleys where there is little or no signal close-in. An end-fed antenna, like a Trasar, would have even a larger group delay error close in. A 1400' stick, like those in Indianapolis, would do better at 4 miles, because of the lower radiation center puts the more of the main beam over those homes.


Glad to see that you are still giving good advice out there.


Bob Chase

KHCW-DT


----------



## Konrad2

Bob Chase writes:


> Every antenna has it, some worse than others.


Is data on this available somewhere on the web, perhaps the FCC website,

or would we end-users have to ask an engineer at each nearby station?


> It is hard for a DTV tuner to put this back together because there is not

> enough equalization available to reassemble the ATSC data. If we were

> looking at a spectrum analyzer the signal would have huge notches in it

> like the worst multi-path you ever saw.


Are there artifacts of this in a NTSC picture? (For end-users without spectrum

analyzer.)


What would symptoms be for ATSC tuners? Inability to hold onto a lock?

Dropped packets?


Do some ATSC tuners (perhaps newer generation) do a better job than others?


> My bet is your are quite correct in that low gain antennas will out perform

> the high gain ones.


Because?


----------



## Konrad2

Jeff writes:


> FM interference appearing generally as diagonal "lines" on an NTSC video signal ...


I found some shielded FM traps, speced at -20dB 95-108 MHz each, and they helped a

lot, but I still get the diagonal lines sometimes, Varies from one day to the next.

Perhaps a clue there? I'd expect a normal FM station to be constant.


The next obvious step would be to hunt down a more aggressive FM trap that goes

down to 88 MHz, and hope it doesn't kill channel 6. And/or a tunable version.


Why not make the FM trap go up to 170 MHz or so instead of only up to 108 MHz?

Why not attenuate as much non-TV stuff as possible?


But could the diagonal lines be from something other than FM? A strong NTSC

station perhaps? Is there a formula to calculate the frequency of the

interference given the frequency of the victim channel and the slope of the

diagonal lines? I tried google but didn't find anything.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The next obvious step would be to hunt down a more aggressive FM trap that goes down to 88 MHz, and hope it doesn't kill channel 6. And/or a tunable version.
> 
> 
> Why not make the FM trap go up to 170 MHz or so instead of only up to 108 MHz?
> 
> Why not attenuate as much non-TV stuff as possible?
> 
> 
> But could the diagonal lines be from something other than FM?



The FM band attenuation traps that evenly attenuate down to 88Mhz wreak havoc on channel 6.


You've already been advised of tunable FM notch traps, but you have decided that the affordable ones won't work in your situation due to ingress, notwithstanding the fact that they work just fine for those of us who install them professionally.


There are traps called midband traps that "notch out" 120 - 174Mhz. They are sometimes called A-I deletion filters. Channel Master used to make one, and I bought a few of them on a dealer closeout, but you wouldn't want to use such a product because it is in an unshielded case. Companies like Eagle Comtronics and Microwave filter make cylindrical, shielded A-I traps. Midband A-I traps often attenuate the channel 7 visual carrier by half a dozen dB. When I have seen them used in hotel PPV movie systems to clear the midband for PPV channel insertion, their visual degradation of channel 7 is readily discernible.


The likelihood that you can find an interfering carrier, if that is the cause of your undesirable symptoms, and mitigate it without test equipment, trap inventory or requisite technical expertise is nill. If you pay a competent technician with a spectrum analyzer and some traps to come out and analyze your reception situation and mitigate any RF spikes that may be contributing to your dissatisfaction, it will probably cost you less than $200.


----------



## Konrad2

> You've already been advised of tunable FM notch traps, but you have decided that the affordable

> ones won't work in your situation due to ingress, notwithstanding the fact that they work just fine

> for those of us who install them professionally.


I am not doubting your success, nor do I intend any insult.


It's just that, given what I've observed with unshielded RF devices from

reputable companies (that should know better!) that ADD interference, I

would prefer shielded devices over unshielded ones. Fool me once, shame

on you, fool me twice, shame on me, and all that. Silly me assuming that

products from companies with decent reputations would be designed properly!

If necessary, I could shield an unshielded device. If I really had to, I

could design and build a filter from scratch. But that seems like a lot

of trouble when shielded FM traps are available for $2-3. I now have some

shielded channel-6-killing FM traps on order, and eagerly await the magic

brown truck.


I'm also looking into midband traps.


Meanwhile, I'm wondering if there is a place to get a listing of FM radio

stations similar to the listing of TV stations at www.2150.com or antennaweb.org?

I looked there and also at fcc.gov but didn't find anything. I suspect that

finding a listing of things like NOAA stations would take some serious digging.


----------



## holl_ands

You can query the FCC database for AM, FM or TV stations within a specified radius:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/audio/ 

You can select either html or text format, but unfortunately it's about two pages wide, so cut and paste into Word or Excel to extract distance/azimuth and other relevant info.


Much easier to digest: select "US state" option in the fol. link:
http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/home 


or this very flexible search engine:
http://www.fccinfo.com/cmdpro.php?sz=M&wd=1152 



Also of interest are these Quick lists showing ERP, but not location:
http://radiostationworld.com/north_america.asp


----------



## holl_ands

Location of NOAA Weather Alert VHF transmitters can be found here:
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/nwr/nwrbro.htm 


In my location, they describe location by mountain top.

To find LAT/LONG, you might need to search by callsign in the FCC general database.


Since you are searching for possible VHF/UHF interference sources, don't forget Public Safety

also have assignments....typically CH14-20, but could be anywhere.


There may also be "experimental" or temporary assignmets that aren't in the lists.

To my great consternation, Qualcomm decided to quietly plant their 50 kW MediaFlow transmitter

on CH53 only a few miles away from my location.


And if unlicensed devices are approved for the "white spaces", many of your neighbors will become problems:
http://www.wirelessweek.com/article/...sc=Departments


----------



## pclement

Does anyone know why there aren't any Channel Master 7777 Pre-amplifiers available? None of the stores (brick and mortar or e-tail) seem to have them in stock. Lighting took out my amplifier last week and I can not find another one.



Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## Morpheus_Rising

Not sure what you mean. I did a google search "Channel Master 7777" and just on the first page there are 3 companies selling them. I have 2 of them on my antenna mast (which was banged up and I had to take it down. Both antennas were damaged.) I'm hoping the pre-amps were not damaged from the banging and still work. I won't find out untill I have my new antennas put up.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pclement* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does anyone know why there aren't any Channel Master 7777 Pre-amplifiers available? None of the stores (brick and mortar or e-tail) seem to have them in stock. Lighting took out my amplifier last week and I can not find another one.
> 
> Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.



You didn't say where you were located....suggest you put it in your profile.

Call around to local antenna installers and ask them....


Or do what most everyone else does--order online....


----------



## mdrums

I am having reception problems with NBC and CBS in Tampa. I live in Apollo Beach which is soth of Tampa on the east side of TampaBay. I currently have a round Channel Master antenna on the roof of a 2 story house. I had a Channel Master Stealth on the roof but my installer swaped it out saying the round one is better since I was having problems with CBS HDTV at times. The round one is worse. I can get ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox in HD but a lot of times CBS or NBC will pixilate and or lose the signal. My installer (really just a home theater/alarm guy siad he will put what ever antenna I want on the roof just let him know.


Any suggestions on a better antenna for my area? I am using a D* HR10-250 and have to stay with D* for the NFL package. The antenna is split to 3 tv's in the house.


thanks! Mike


----------



## Konrad2

Thanks, holl_ands, very useful info. I had been under the impression

that the low end of FM was supposed to be only low power stations.

Apparently that is not the case.


Or perhaps it used to be, but the FCC in their infinite wisdom abandoned

that policy along with the policy of not having TV stations on adjacent

channels. And if I'm reading Charles W. Rhodes correctly, even skipping

a channel isn't sufficient:

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...02-16-05.shtml 


Despite that, I may have fixed my diagonal lines problem by putting

a 95-108 FM trap *ahead* of the preamp. Yes the preamp is a respected

brand which is frequently recommended in this and other forums. And

yes, it has a FM trap built in. But it appears the builtin FM trap

is not good enough to prevent the preamp from doing the overload

cross-mod thing and scattering garbage here and there. The interference

comes and goes, so I'm not going to declare the problem fixed for awhile.

But it is looking very promising. Digital reception is much improved

as well.


----------



## mdrums

Rick it is 33572.


----------



## holl_ands

Have you tried VHF/FM without the Preamp?

Perhaps the Preamp is only needed for certain VHF stations...or perhaps UHF only...

In which case there may be other options.....


If you have strong nearby VHF/FM stations and cannot get by using a UHF-only Preamp,

then you may want to try the Winegard HDP-269 low-gain VHF/UHF Preamp.


The specs indicate that it has 5 dB higher VHF overload than the best W-G and C-M Preamps....

and 12 dB higher than CM7777 for UHF.


A Preamp's primary purpose is to establish a good Noise Figure as close as possible to the antenna,

so that the effects of loss after the preamp is reduced by the amount of gain in the Preamp.

Higher gain doesn't make all that much of a difference to the overall SYSTEM NF.


More info re overload (and Preamp etal specs) can be found here (esp PPP 9, 11 & 13:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1145308060


----------



## holl_ands

Antennaweb.org results for that zipcode (your specific location may be slightly different):


* yellow - uhf WUSF-DT 16.1 PBS TAMPA FL 61° 10.1 34

* yellow - uhf WTOG-DT 44.1UPN ST. PETERSBURG FL 61° 10.1 59

* yellow - uhf WTSP-DT 10.1 CBS ST. PETERSBURG FL 326° 36.0 24

* yellow - uhf WTTA-DT 38.1 WB ST. PETERSBURG FL 63° 9.9 57

* yellow - vhf WTVT-DT 13.1 FOX TAMPA FL 75° 10.5 12

* yellow - uhf WXPX-DT 66.1 i BRADENTON FL 72° 9.3 42

* yellow - uhf WWSB-DT 52.1 ABC SARASOTA FL 174° 15.0 52

* yellow - uhf WMOR-DT 32.1 IND LAKELAND FL 72° 9.3 19

* yellow - uhf WFTS-DT 28.1 ABC TAMPA FL 63° 9.9 29

* yellow - uhf WEDU-DT 3.1 PBS TAMPA FL 61° 10.1 54

* yellow - uhf WCLF-DT 22.1 CTN CLEARWATER FL 72° 9.3 21

* yellow - uhf WFTT-DT 50.1 TFA TAMPA FL 63° 9.9 47

* yellow - vhf WFLA-DT 8.1 NBC TAMPA FL 63° 9.9 7

* lt green - uhf WVEA-DT 25.1 UNI VENICE FL 72° 9.3 25


The REAL VHF/UHF channel in the last column.

First, lets assume you don't need duplicate ABC from SARASOTA, eliminating this oddball THIRD direction.


Of course, mounting the antenna much higher should help--

Although it may be difficult to avoid blockage from nearby buildings, trees, hills,...

You didn't say whether you had any particular signal blockage problems...


Note that NBC is on CH7 and although only 10 miles away, requires at least a minimal amount of VHF gain in that direction.

[Probably explains why Stealth was better than "round" omnidirectional (C-M SmartAntenna?]


All UHF DTV stations are from a fairly narrow azimuth (61-75 degrees),

except CBS which is at 326 degrees and a distant 36 miles away.


Unfortunately, most moderate gain antenna upgrades will have great difficulty receiving stations at right angles from each other...


It is possible that a low gain Preamp (like the HDP-269) will improve your distant reception for CBS.

But since you are only 10 miles away, overload is likely to prevent reception of CBS.

This may also be the case if you are currently using an ampified antenna.

Suggest you query your local Miami forum on what other's are using...


A small-moderate unamplified VHF/UHF combo antenna may be a reasonable choice for pointing toward about 72 degrees,

combined with a second UHF-only antenna (e.g. CM4221) pointed toward 326 degrees (and may or may not need a Preamp).


----------



## Konrad2

> Have you tried VHF/FM without the Preamp?


Not since I got the FM traps. I'll give it a shot.


----------



## Konrad2

The FM traps have helped a lot, but I think it is time for an antenna upgrade.

For UHF I'm planning on going with Winegard PR 8800 bowtie unless someone

has a better idea. I don't expect to need VHF-LO after the analog shutdown

and frequency swap.


I'm researching VHF-HI antennas. Here are the ones I have found so far:


Blonder Tongue BTY-LP-HB chan7-13 174-216 MHz

. . . . gain: 13.2 (ch. 7) 12.2 (ch. 13) dBi

. . . . Flatness Over Channel: 0.50 dB

. . . . beamwidth: 50.5 degrees

. . . . front/back: 20 dB

. . . . return loss: 12 dB

. . . . 10 elements

. . . . Length: 104 inches

. . . . Width: 35.5 inches

. . . . 13.25 lbs

. . . . Boom: alum 1.25" square 0.062" wall

. . . . elements: alum 0.5" round 0.049" wall

. . . . $ 282.99 @ http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=SS4871 

. . . . $ 322.24 @ http://www.starkelectronic.com/btp2.htm 

. . . . http://www.blondertongue.com/reception/bty.pdf 


Are radiation plots for the BTY-LP-HB available anywhere? I can't find any.



Winegard YA-1713

. . . . Boom Length: 99.875 inches

. . . . Max Width: 35 inches

. . . . Height: 3"

. . . . weight: 3.25 lbs

. . . . gain: 9.1-10.3 dBd

. . . . beamwidth: 40-56 degrees

. . . . front/back: 10.5-19

. . . . element diameter: 3/8"

. . . . $32.99 @ http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...ain_cat=3&CAT= 

. . . . $37.95 @ http://www.summitsource.com/winegard...13-p-4589.html 

. . . . http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/ya-1713.pdf 


The YA-1713's radiation plots look okay, but I haven't found any elevation plots.



Winegard YA-6713

. . . . Boom Length: 49.875"

. . . . Max Width: 35 inches

. . . . Height: 3"

. . . . 2.15 lbs

. . . . gain: 6.8 - 7.3 dBd

. . . . beamwidth: 53-64 degrees

. . . . front/back: 6-18 dB

. . . . $24.95 @ http://www.summitsource.com/winegard...13-p-4588.html 

. . . . $24.99 @ http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=YA6713 

. . . . $26.97 @ stark

. . . . spec sheet: http://www.starkelectronic.com/wya6713.htm 

. . . . http://www.starkelectronic.com/wnya6713.jpg 

. . . . http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/ya-6713.pdf 


Channel 7 radiation pattern has a significant looking rear lobe, which

would go along with the lame 6dB front/back ratio.

I haven't found any elevation plots.

The 1713 appears to have significantly better performance for only $8 more.


Antennacraft Y10-7-13

. . . . Boom Length: 120 inches

. . . . Max width: 35.75"

. . . . gain: 9.4 dB (d? i?)

. . . . beamwidth: 44.5 degrees

. . . . front/back: 16.5 dB

. . . . $33.51 @ http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm 

. . . . http://www.starkelectronic.com/acantena.htm 


I haven't found any radiation plots for the Antennacraft Y10-7-13.


The gain plots for the Winegard YA-1713 at
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 

look pretty bad, both raw and net. The curve is quite steep in places.


Are similar gain plots available somewhere for any of the other VHF-HI

antennas?


Why is the Blonder Tongue 10 times the price of the other antennas?

Is it really that much better? Or just a matter of selling a 10% better

product to commercial customers with deep pockets?


I am not especially concerned with signal strength. Any of these will likely

provide more than enough signal strength, even indoors without an amp. I am

concerned with most other aspects, including multipath (radiation pattern both

vert and horz), quality, durability, etc. These all have more beamwidth than

I need. 15-20 degrees would be plenty.


holl_ands wrote:


> 3. I would expect that a long Yagi antenna is adversely perturbed by

> the nearby attic structures more than the 8-Bay, although I haven't

> seen any NEC simulations on this aspect.


John wrote:


} I expect that the worst attic multipath effects are mitigated mostly

} by vertical directivity which would explain why 4 bay high bowtie

} stacks work well in attics.


Ron wrote:


] I'd like to suggest that the real issue is detuning of the antenna due

] to the close proximity of it's surroundings. Yagis are a much higher

] "Q" antenna a suffer much more detuning than a lower "Q" structure like

] the colinear.


Anyone have a guess as to how these VHF-HI antennas would perform indoors

or in an attic "looking" through a wood gable? Are they going to get detuned?

Rabbit ears indoors do pretty well, but have a bit more multipath ghosting on

analog than I'd like. I don't currently have any digital stations on VHF-HI,

but expect to have 2 maybe 3 after the big frequency swap.


The pr8800 UHF 8-bay is 34" high 45" wide. Multiply by 470/174 and a VHF-HI

version would be roughly 92" high 122" wide. I need a larger attic.


I've seen suggestions that the CM4228 can be used for VHF-HI as well as UHF,

but looking at the graph, the "frequency response" is shooting up and down

like crazy. That can't be good for reception quality.


Are there other VHF-HI antennas I should consider?


----------



## cpcat

For VHF Hi I can recommend the Antennacraft as well as the Funke psp 1922. The Funke has marginally higher gain and narrower bandwidth. I have a couple that I I'm not using at the moment. MAXHD has them as well the last I heard.


The BT antennas are commercial designs and that's where most of the added cost comes in.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The FM traps have helped a lot, but I think it is time for an antenna upgrade.
> 
> For UHF I'm planning on going with Winegard PR 8800 bowtie unless someone
> 
> has a better idea. I don't expect to need VHF-LO after the analog shutdown
> 
> and frequency swap.
> 
> 
> I've seen suggestions that the CM4228 can be used for VHF-HI as well as UHF,
> 
> but looking at the graph, the "frequency response" is shooting up and down
> 
> like crazy. That can't be good for reception quality.
> 
> 
> Are there other VHF-HI antennas I should consider?



Kerry Cozad of Dielectric (they make transmitter antenna systems) performed ACTUAL ON-THE-AIR

measurements of REAL antennas and found SMOOTH frequency response for CM-4228 in hi-VHF band:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ad#post6423155 

Note CM4228 was much better than PR8800 (or any other tested antenna) in both VHF and UHF bands.


Ya gotta take the NEC computer simulation results with a grain of salt--and for very complex antenna structures better grab a mouthful...

Ya also should know that the CM4228 NEC results have been recently updated and were considerably different a year ago....


----------



## cpcat

The Antennacraft gain is in dBd.

http://antennacraft-tdp.com/pdfs/Y10-7-13.pdf


----------



## rgathright

When I pre-wired my new house I had not idea I could pull in other Cities OTA- HD if I moved my antenna. Now I wished I wired in for a rotor.


Are there any wireless rotors that will receive the signal through my sheetrock ceiling from the living room directly below the antenna?


----------



## Geordon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rgathright* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When I pre-wired my new house I had not idea I could pull in other Cities OTA- HD if I moved my antenna. Now I wished I wired in for a rotor.
> 
> 
> Are there any wireless rotors that will receive the signal through my sheetrock ceiling from the living room directly below the antenna?



I would think it wouldn't be that hard to climb into the attic and fish the controller wire down an inside wall so you can have the controller plugged in in your living room. Two benefits -- no power required in the attic, and you can read the current orientation. Drill a 1/4" in the top of the stud wall, and feed the wire down the wall, then make a hole near the floor to pull the wire out. A wire "fish line" may also be helpful.


----------



## rgathright

Thought about, but the one problem is my walls are 10' tall, so there is an additional block between the studs that has to be drilled also. May still be the best option.


----------



## holl_ands

Channel Master's 9521A Rotator uses IR for R/C:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...&PROD=MTRTR200 

Channel Master website claims the controller is compatibile with a variety of different

Rotators if you want to use an existing/compatible Rotator.


You can mount the controller in the attic using a Wireless Remote Control Extender:
http://www.solidsignal.com/search_re...FS1fDgod9Fn_uQ 
http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Order/Acce...-extenders.htm 
http://www.shop.com/op/~LeapFrog_Wir...7?sourceid=298


----------



## AntAltMike

Or you can always wait for Winegard to release its rotor that shares the coax downlead for rotation and indexing...


----------



## rgathright




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Or you can always wait for Winegard to release its rotor that shares the coax downlead for rotation and indexing...



Any idea when this product will come out?


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rgathright* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Any idea when this product will come out?



Last I heard, three year ago.


----------



## holl_ands

Here are user reviews on the X10 Powermid vs R-S and Terk/Leapfrog products:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...lance&n=172282 

Despite the name, it also uses wireless RF signal.


Although I couldn't find one, there should be IR Extenders that work via AC powerline for locations where a wireless

signal would have problems penetrating. Best I could find was combined with a Video Extender over CAT5 cable.


For info re Extenders, suggest searching Home Theater and Remote Control threads.


----------



## tobybul

Sorry, am sure this has been asked already. Recommendation on tv/hdtv antenna in Grand Rapids, Michigan area. Prefer multi-directional. Want to install in attic. Thanks


----------



## ziggy4212

The terk tv55 would be a good choice http://public.intranet.crutchfield.c...tv55&i=209TV55


----------



## Rammitinski

If you're planning on giving that antenna a try, I'd suggest you buy it from some place where it's easily returnable.


Very few people have had much success with it.


----------



## Phantom Gremlin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Last I heard, three year ago.



Whenever I read about long delays in such simple products, I think of the Far Side cartoon about the dog scientists struggling to understand The Doorknob Principle:

http://www.jhrc.ul.ie/ciandavis/im/door.gif


----------



## kenglish

I would go with something outdoors, if possible.


Check the thread for your area, to see what channels are in use and their locations. You might be able to get away with a small UHF antenna, if the stations are all UHF. Otherwise, something in a small V/U antenna would be best. Attics are not optimal, although they sometimes work OK.


----------



## sebenste




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tobybul* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry, am sure this has been asked already. Recommendation on tv/hdtv antenna in Grand Rapids, Michigan area. Prefer multi-directional. Want to install in attic. Thanks



Hello Toby,


Unfortunately, you are in the same boat as Chicago...you have a digital TV station (specifically, WWMT) on VHF-LO, specifically channel 2, which is hard to pick up. If you want to do an attic, I would at least choose a Radio Shack VU-120 in size; or a medium-sized Winegard VHF-UHF combination antenna found at warrenelectronics.com, or starkelectronic.com. Unfortunately, if you have transmitting antennas in multiple

locations, then your roof may be your only real option for that antenna. I definitely would not usse the VU-120 outside, as that antenna, while picking up VHF quite well for such an antenna, is not made as sturdy as the others.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tobybul* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry, am sure this has been asked already. Recommendation on tv/hdtv antenna in Grand Rapids, Michigan area. Prefer multi-directional. Want to install in attic. Thanks



Gotta know where you are to determine if you even have a ghost of a chance with

a "multi-directional" attic antenna.

Go to www.antennaweb.org and punch in your address/zipcode.

Then do a simple copy/paste of just the results table into a new post on this thread.

If you don't care about analog stations, then you can select just the digital stations.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Kerry Cozad of Dielectric... performed ACTUAL ON-THE-AIR measurements of REAL antennas and found SMOOTH frequency response for CM-4228 in hi-VHF band:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ad#post6423155
> 
> 
> Ya gotta take the NEC computer simulation results with a grain of salt--and for very complex antenna structures better grab a mouthful...
> 
> Ya also should know that the CM4228 NEC results have been recently updated and were considerably different a year ago....



I can't infer that from the graph that Kerry Cozad furnished. It plots single values of 4 dBd for channel 7, 4dBd at ch 9, 5dBd at ch 11 and 5dBd at 13 and then connects them with straight lines, but that does not contradict the data that can be extracted from the HDTV Primer plot for the same antenna.


The HDTVPrimer graph does have a much lower gain value for channel 7, but its center value for channel 9 is about 3dBd, channel 11 is 5 dBd and 13 is also 5dBd, so if you connected 9, 11 and 13 with straight lines on the Primer graph, it would be fairly flat like Cozad's, but look what a roller coaster ride the plots take between those center channel values! On the HDTVPrimer graph, the lower edge value of channel 9 is 0dBd, whereas its upper edge value is +5dBd:, the lower edge of 11 is +6dBd whereas its upper edge is -1dBd, and the plots of channels 7 and 12 gain are bad jokes, with the channel 7 plot shooting up by over 8dB over the first 1Mhz before plummeting 10dB across the remainder of the channel band, and the channel 12 plot looks like someone tuned a notch filter into it, measuring -1dBd at 204Mhz, troughing at -7dBd at about 205.5Mhz, and then recovering to +5dBd at 210Mhz, yet these plots are perfectly consistent with Cozad's primitive graph, which depicts the same spans as flat.



As I recall, Blonder Tongue specs for both their Yagis and log periodics claim flatness across each channel of 1dB or better. With analog signals, the color purity of channels 7 and 12 derived from the irregular response of the 4228 would be putrid (NTSC = Never The Same Color), and I am concerned that digital processing of similarly distorted signal plateaus would be unreliable.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> With analog signals, the color purity of channels 7 and 12 derived from the irregular response of the 4228 would be putrid (NTSC = Never The Same Color), and I am concerned that digital processing of similarly distorted signal plateaus would be unreliable.



I can't answer for the 4228, but I have used my AntennasDirect 91XG as a VHF-HI antenna on channel 10 and find the color to be similar to that of the digital signal. This holds for a large variety of antenna positions, although there is one or two angles where the colors are very distorted. My guess is that the distortion of the 4228 at "optimum" angles is minimal as well. Maybe someone with a 4228 can post some real-world pictures of analog VHF-HI reception and put all our fears to rest...


----------



## Neonapple

I currently live in a highrise built in the 60's that uses a daisy chain method for antenna distribution on a continuous loop. Each unit in the tier taps into the trunk to receive signal from the line. Recently comcast entered my unit after there was a sever in the loop and found that my antenna wallplate was the cause. Rather than replace the plate, he disconnected the two ends from the plate and capped them with male coax connectors and then used a female-to-female coax joiner and simply bypassed my unit. Since I was using cable, I had no issues with it. For some odd reason certain local HD broadcasts do not come through on cable and wish to use the building antenna for HD OTA. Do any of you know where I can purchase a new wallplate that supports daisychain antenna connection on the back to coax connector on the front?


Since the two ends of the loop were capped, I would like to know if there is a wallplate available that has two female connectors on the back that maintains the loop rather than me uncapping the two ends and screwing the raw ends to the plate if at all possible.


----------



## Konrad2

> if you connected 9, 11 and 13 with straight lines on the Primer graph,

> it would be fairly flat like Cozad's, but look what a roller coaster

> ride the plots take between those center channel values!


Good catch!


> As I recall, Blonder Tongue specs for both their Yagis and log periodics claim

> flatness across each channel of 1dB or better.


Blonder Tongue BTY-LP-HB claims 0.5 dB


Looking at the Kerry Cozad graphs, I have to wonder. The Silver Sensor is a

small indoor unamplified UHF antenna, right? Then how does it get over 6 dBd

at channel 4 when it only gets about 4 dBd at best in UHF?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...chmentid=45041 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...chmentid=45040 


} Maybe someone with a 4228 can post some real-world pictures of analog VHF-HI

} reception and put all our fears to rest...


Awhile back, Bob Chase posted a pdf with actual spectrum analyser graphs from a

field test done 2005-09-18 in Pearland Texas. If I'm reading it right, on channels

5 & 9, the CM4228 is significantly more ragged than the Scala, HD7210, and CM5646.

Nearly 10 dB difference within channel 5, about 4 dB within channel 9.


Also interesting:


Compare the slope of the various antennas on channel 9.


Compare the slope of channel 35 with channel 36.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neonapple* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I currently live in a highrise built in the 60's that uses a daisy chain method for antenna distribution on a continuous loop. Each unit in the tier taps into the trunk to receive signal from the line. Recently comcast entered my unit after there was a sever in the loop and found that my antenna wallplate was the cause. Rather than replace the plate, he disconnected the two ends from the plate and capped them with male coax connectors and then used a female-to-female coax joiner and simply bypassed my unit. Since I was using cable, I had no issues with it. For some odd reason certain local HD broadcasts do not come through on cable and wish to use the building antenna for HD OTA. Do any of you know where I can purchase a new wallplate that supports daisychain antenna connection on the back to coax connector on the front?
> 
> 
> Since the two ends of the loop were capped, I would like to know if there is a wallplate available that has two female connectors on the back that maintains the loop rather than me uncapping the two ends and screwing the raw ends to the plate if at all possible.



The fitting removed is called a directional coupler or tap. It is an electronic valve that bleeds off a small amount of signal to your unit while passing most of it along for the units below. Radio Shack does NOT sell them, surely because selection and application of this product requires knowledge that most do-it-yourselfers don't have, and therefore would result in a lot of customer dissatisfaction and returns.


Taps have different values, denoted in negative dB. At the top of a tall building, the value might have been -24dB. In the middle, it might be -16dB, the last few floors will typically have values of -9 or -6dB.


How many stories tall is your building? Is there another wallplate in another room that you can remove to read the tap value off it, so that you can replace the missing one with the same value?


Were you receiving reliable HDTV signal from the antenna system previously? Very few master antenna systems in Arlington distribute UHF signal, though some of the older, smaller garden style apartments that are just overblown residential systems consisting of one antenna and one VHF/UHF distribution amplifier will get you several broadcast HDTV stations, provided there are no taller buildings blocking the direct signal path.


What apartment or Condo are you in? I've serviced the antenna systems in quite a few of them in your market.


----------



## Neonapple




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The fitting removed is called a directional coupler or tap. It is an electronic valve that bleeds off a small amount of signal to your unit while passing most of it along for the units below. Radio Shack does NOT sell them, surely because selection and application of this product requires knowledge that most do-it-yourselfers don't have, and therefore would result in a lot of customer dissatisfaction and returns.
> 
> 
> Taps have different values, denoted in negative dB. At the top of a tall building, the value might have been -24dB. In the middle, it might be -16dB, the last few floors will typically have values of -9 or -6dB.
> 
> 
> How many stories tall is your building? Is there another wallplate in another room that you can remove to read the tap value off it, so that you can replace the missing one with the same value?
> 
> 
> Were you receiving reliable HDTV signal from the antenna system previously? Very few master antenna systems in Arlington distribute UHF signal, though some of the older, smaller garden style apartments that are just overblown residential systems consisting of one antenna and one VHF/UHF distribution amplifier will get you several broadcast HDTV stations, provided there are no taller buildings blocking the direct signal path.
> 
> 
> What apartment or Condo are you in? I've serviced the antenna systems in quite a few of them in your market.



Mike, Thanks for the response. I live in the condo complex called "The Carlton" which is the tallest building in the South Arlington area; so obstruction shouldn't be an issue. It's a 12 story building with me living on the 7th floor. I will go to my neighbors and check her wallplate for the tap value. I unfortunately tossed mine away after it was found to be defective. I do remember seeing a resistor on the back though.


Since you've serviced this area, would you know the dB from your highrise tap value black book before I bother her?


I didn't have an HDTV prior to the bypass, so I don't actually know if I will be able to receive HD or not. Either way, I would like to have this feature back in my unit for when I rent it out in the future.


Also I found this site that sells the couplers, but not plates.
http://www.pacificcable.com/Picture_...Name=201%2D306 


I can probably get something like this once I know the tap and get the male-to-male to screw to the back of the plate from the coupler.


----------



## AntAltMike

I drive by it, but I don't think I've ever serviced it. Do you know who the management company is? I might know someone I can call to find out what the situation is there.


The ones with a visible resistor on the back are unshielded junk. Their tap value is usually printed in black ink on the plate itself. -12dB, -17dB and -23 or 24dB are common values for that kind of plate, whereas the more modern, shielded directional couplers are available in finer increments.


----------



## Neonapple

Mike,

The management company is "Armstrong Management." I also updated my post.


-Alex


----------



## AntAltMike

I service a few other buildings for them. I'll give someone a call next week sometime.


----------



## Neonapple

I appreciate your help. I am in no rush and thanks.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> >
> 
> Awhile back, Bob Chase posted a pdf with actual spectrum analyser graphs from a
> 
> field test done 2005-09-18 in Pearland Texas. If I'm reading it right, on channels
> 
> 5 & 9, the CM4228 is significantly more ragged than the Scala, HD7210, and CM5646.
> 
> Nearly 10 dB difference within channel 5, about 4 dB within channel 9.
> 
> 
> Also interesting:
> 
> 
> Compare the slope of the various antennas on channel 9.
> 
> 
> Compare the slope of channel 35 with channel 36.



FYI: Here are links to Bob Chase's UHF-only outdoor vs attic antenna comparison and an attic location test:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ic#post5399471 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...la#post5410432 

and here's Bob's VHF/UHF outdoor antenna test you cited above:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...60#post6246260 


==============================================

When you see two strong adjacent channels, the transmitter and antenna have frequently been designed

as a single integrated structure. For example, NTSC CH8 and ATSC CH9 are different versions of KUHT.


However, antennaweb.org shows that ATSC CH31 and CH32 are on different towers in slightly different locations,

as are also ATSC CH35 and CH36.


Since ALL of the antennas experienced the SAME frequency response irregularities for CH35/36,

I would suspect either the transmitters or perhaps multipath conditions that affected all antennas equally.


===============================================

The CM4228 (cyan) has a variation of about +/- 4 dB on Low-VHF CH5,

but ya still have to be amazed that it has ANY gain for low-VHF channels and has more gain that any

of the other UHF antennas, including the SS-1000 Square-Shooter that still claims to be a "VHF/UHF" antenna.


Also bear in mind that most locations don't need much of an antenna for low-band VHF.

I've seen people strip off 12-18 inches of coax, leaving just the center conductor.

And Kerry Cozad's "coat hanger" antenna (see slides 11/12) also might be a viable candidate,

although I would take the time to unwind and separate the ends:
https://secure.connect.pbs.org/confe...ns/TC05_43.htm 


It would be interesting to see how the gain changes as the CM4228 is rotated,

since the max VHF gain isn't always aligned with the UHF beam direction....


And it is also possible that the spectrum analyzer was responding to multipath variations in

that particular antenna location vice gain irregularities as it slowly scanned across the channel.


Long experience has taught me that it is difficult to conduct on-air tests in "controlled" test conditions.....

Requiring numerous additional steps (usually not reported) to exclude other confusion factors....


===============================================

on High-VHF CH9 the CM4228 variation across the channel is only about +/- 2 dB.

Compare this to the best VHF/UHF Combo antennas which all experience a slight roll-off with frequency,

resulting in a variation of 2-3 dB. So on CH9, CM4228 has 4-10 dB less gain than purpose built

VHF/UHF Combos and is actually within +/- 2 dB, just like the Combos...


Note that the CM4228 is maintaining good energy across CH9, rather than rolling off like the VHF/UHF Combos.

An adaptive equalizer can overcome freq response irregularities much easier than trying to recover energy that is no longer there.


================================================

In NTSC, the audio carrier should be about 8-15 dB below the visual carrier:
http://www.sencore.com/newsletter/No...files/HDTV.htm 

However, each station can chose a specific setting and what you see on a spectrum analyzer depends on

the bandwidth and integration time settings.

Hence overall, it appears that most NTSC channels are displayed with the audio carrier about 10 dB below the visual.


On NTSC CH11 and CH13, let's look at the relative strengths for the triple peaks (visual, chroma, audio).


On CH11, the three best VHF/UHF Combo antennas have about the same gain as the CM4228 for the visual carrier,

however the Combos also experience perhaps 6-8 dB EXCESS of gain for the audio carrier, the worst being the CM3671.

The CM4228 seems to be experiencing a gradual frequency rolloff, increasing to perhaps 6-8 dB for the audio carrier.


On CH13 the CM4228 APPEARS to be matching the gain of the best VHF/UHF Combos on the visual and audio carriers.

However, if you download and blow up the chart, you'll see that the CM4228 is providing 3-4 dB less gain than the combos.

This overall gain loss of 3-4 dB is also seen across the mid-channel frequencies, illustrating a generally flat response for the CM4228 on CH13.


So on CH11 and 13, the best VHF/UHF Combo antennas only provide a few dB more gain than the CM4228

and on CH11 experienced frequency flatness issues that are on the same order as the CM4228.


=================================================

BTW: STATIC, SMOOTH frequency response irregularities on the order of a few dB can be readily accommodated in an ATSC receiver's adaptive equalizer.

DYNAMIC and/or NOTCHED frequency response irregularities displayed on a spectrum analyzer are evidence of underlying multipath problems.


==================================================

YMMV: Anytime you measure antenna gain in a real-world location, the results will also reflect current multipath signal conditions. The nature of multipath can cause signal nulls and peaks that vary with location, meaning that one antenna may

experience a frequency response problem differently than the others.


Also, the Ground-Bounce reflection can cause as much as a 3 dB increase in measured gain at certain frequencies,

including those reported by Kerry Cozad using an outdoor antenna range. Reflections from nearby buildings can also inflate the measured gain.....


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...the SS-1000 Square-Shooter... still claims to be a "VHF/UHF" antenna.



And I claim that my paper clip is a VHF/UHF antenna. Winegard wants to sell Square Shooters (about $100 each, retail). They can sell more by calling it a combo antenna than by calling it UHF only. Most buyers who also wanted VHF capability may keep it even if it does not meet their expectations because of the investment they have in its installation, as well as the fact that it usually meets their UHF needs.


In fact, in many markets, like mine, the VHF highband final assignments aren't being used yet, so if anyone in this market bought one for that eventuality, he presently doesn't know if the Square Shooter will fail to meet his needs.




> Quote:
> In NTSC, the audio carrier should be about 8-15 dB below the visual carrier:... However, each station can chose a specific setting and what you see on a spectrum analyzer depends on the bandwidth and integration time settings. Hence overall, it appears that most NTSC channels are displayed with the audio carrier about 10 dB below the visual.



I install antennas on tall buildings with clear, line of sight paths to about 16 full-powered analog transmitters ranging from three miles to about forty miles away. I usually use Blonder Tongue BTY-BBs or BTY cut-to-channel antennas for the VHF channels, and Winegard HA9065s or Channel Master CM-4228s for UHF. I don't go out of my way to check to compare the relative strengths of the visual and aural carriers, but I am virtually certain that they all consistently have a differential of 5 to 6dB, with the only possible exception being WMPT 22 analog from Annapolis.


The recommendation that the aural carrier be as low as 15dB below the visual carrier is the recommendation for relative levels of processed signals that are being mixed into an adjacent channel distribution system AFTER they have been faithfully received by the antenna. Strip amplifiers and channel processors typically include an analog tunable notch filter that is used to attenuate the aural carrier so as to minimize visual interference on the upper adjacent channel.


When you properly notch an aural carrier, you do not affect the chroma portion of the NTSC signal, but if you have an antenna that shows 10dB or more of differential between the aural and visual carriers, then it probably has about three dB or more of excessive attenuation of the chroma burst. I would consider that to be indicative of sucky antenna performance




> Quote:
> YMMV: Anytime you measure antenna gain in a real-world location, the results will also reflect current multipath signal conditions. The nature of multipath can cause signal nulls and peaks that vary with location, meaning that one antenna may experience a frequency response problem differently than the others...
> 
> 
> Also, the Ground-Bounce reflection can cause as much as a 3 dB increase in measured gain at certain frequencies,including those reported by Kerry Cozad using an outdoor antenna range. Reflections from nearby buildings can also inflate the measured gain.....



If a ground bounce were equal in strength to the desired signal AND if it hits the dipole exactly in phase with the desired signal AND if the antenna gain in the elevation of the bounced signal was as efficient as the gain in the horizontal plane, THEN, there would be a three dB increase in signal strength. You'd have to have a real world topography of a giant roller skating rink to even make that approach a physical possibility. Maybe, across Bonneville Salt Flat, you might be able to approach a three dB boost...



> Quote:
> So on CH11 and 13, the best VHF/UHF Combo antennas only provide a few dB more gain than the CM4228 and on CH11 experienced frequency flatness issues that are on the same order as the CM4228...
> 
> 
> It also would be interesting to see how the gain changes as the CM4228 is rotated, since the max VHF gain isn't always aligned with the UHF beam direction....



This Saturday, I'm going to be on the rooftop of a building in DC that has a BTY-BB pointed at analog channels 7 and 9, four miles away, another pointed at 11 and 13 maybe 35 miles away, and a couple of CM 4228s and HA9065s. It will be fairly easy for me to do some performance comparisons, and I'll also be able to visually compare the pictures of analog 11 and 13 coming off the BTY-BB and a CM 4228 on the 25" test TV in the mechanical room. Unfortunately, I am not outfitted to produce any kind of a screen capture, so I will be resigned to describing the picture quality as faithfully as I can.


I'll also compare the A/V ratio of analog channel 22 from WMPT from each type of UHF antenna used, to see if the 10dB differential I have measured in Arlington is local to that installation or if that might reflect the real carrier power differential.


----------



## holl_ands

The relative levels of the visual and aural carriers depends on how you measure them.

I didn't immediately see what bandwidth Bob Chase used for these measurements,

but it must be much less than a MHz in order to resolve the individual visual/chroma/aural carriers.

If you are using specialized TV test equipment, the bandwidths of the separate visual and aural filters

are wide enough to include energy in the sidebands and hence will yield different ratios.


Looking at Bob Chase's charts for the UHF band, I see 3 and 6 dB minimum values and 11 db (twice) as the maximum values.

Discarding these anomalous extremes (might be antenna related), the remaining values are 10, 10, 8, 9, 9, 7 and 8

which averages to about 8.7 dB...so my first eyeball guess of 10 dB might be just a tiny bit high.


For low-band CH2, combo antennas have visual/aural ratio of about 4-6 dB and the CM4228 is about 8 dB....only minor roll-off.


In the high-VHF band, CH8 has a ratio of 6 or 7 dB for the Combo antennas....and CM4228 is 9 dB....only minor roll-off.


CH11 ratio is only about 4 dB per VHF/UHF combo antennas...and CM4228 is about 17 dB....significant roll-off. [But is it due to irregular antenna response or an artifact of multipath????]


CH13 is 8 dB per CM3671, 8 dB per Scala....and 7 dB for CM4228....essentially the same.


Moving the antenna up and down, back and forth, can easily change the frequency and location of multipath null patterns, easily resulting in variation in these values by more than a few dB....so don't try to read too much into a 2 dB difference:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html


----------



## SRO Dave




pclement said:


> Does anyone know why there aren't any Channel Master 7777 Pre-amplifiers available? None of the stores (brick and mortar or e-tail) seem to have them in stock. Lighting took out my amplifier last week and I can not find another one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know myself but mine has been on backorder since 5/2/06. When I called Warren Electronics, they tell me that Channel Master keeps pushing back the shipping date.
> 
> 
> May be due to SMD shortage from oversea supplier.
Click to expand...


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The relative levels of the visual and aural carriers depends on how you measure them.
> 
> I didn't immediately see what bandwidth Bob Chase used for these measurements,
> 
> but it must be much less than a MHz in order to resolve the individual visual/chroma/aural carriers.
> 
> If you are using specialized TV test equipment, the bandwidths of the separate visual and aural filters
> 
> are wide enough to include energy in the sidebands and hence will yield different ratios.
> 
> 
> Looking at Bob Chase's charts for the UHF band, I see 3 and 6 dB minimum values and 11 db (twice) as the maximum values.
> 
> Discarding these anomalous extremes (might be antenna related), the remaining values are 10, 10, 8, 9, 9, 7 and 8
> 
> which averages to about 8.7 dB...so my first eyeball guess of 10 dB might be just a tiny bit high.
> 
> 
> In the VHF band, CH6 has a ratio of 5, 7 or 9 dB, depending on which antenna you look at.
> 
> CH11 is 4 dB per the highest gain (CM3671) VHF/UHF antenna and 7 dB per CM5646 VHF/UHF antenna.
> 
> CH13 is 8 dB per CM3671 and 8 dB per Scala.



Holl_ands & AltAntMike

Back then I would have been using 100 kHz RBW with the display set to max (peak hold). I use 4001 data points for the sweep so that I am not skipping over frequencies on that large of a span with that narrow of an RBW. (The default is 401 data points.) Averaging would have been set to off.


If I leave the SA in max for 3 minutes or more, I will usually get all of the sync pulses captured from all the stations before I write the data file. Modern (common mode) transmitters always have some video on their audio carriers, so peak hold gives a slightly higher (1 or 2 dB) reading than what the real (average) aural power level is.


Typically, NTSC transmitters are set up for a 10% Aural to Visual power ratio. The FCC maximum licensed aural power is 20% of visual power and not all stations are licensed for that much. But even way back when we had separate aural & visual transmitters most UHF folks didn't run that high of aural power because of the electric bill. Some modern (common mode) transmitters have to be run down at 5% aural to make intermod specs. (I know of one station in Dallas that runs 3% aural.)



> Quote:
> And I claim that my paper clip is a VHF/UHF antenna.



On a lighter note, I actually got some of them in the mail from a vendor. The clips were in little plastic bags labeled "Precision low-gain HDTV antenna" on one side and had "Installation Instructions" on the other.







Gota love those marketing types.


Bob


----------



## pclement

SRO Dave:


You understand what I was saying about their availability. However, I ordered one from Solid Signal and it is being delivered to my home today (UPS Tracker). Solid Signal may not have any more as they had previously put mine on backorder and said that they were only getting a few units is. Availability is very hit or miss with the e-merchants. I let you know how it works.


----------



## videobruce

With 4600 posts it's kinda impossible to read through them all.


For the TV engineers here (and I see a few), I would like to purchase a Spectrum Analyzer. The use it would have concerning this forum is to tune single UHF channel traps (filters if you prefer). Of course this is not the only reason, nor would it be the only time it would be used. Please don't waste any time telling me of a cheaper route to do this since this is a long term investment, mostly being used to the 2- way radio spectrum (and TV).


From what I have read, RBW is a important issue, but it also seems to take me out of the price range I want to stay in. Some have suggested RBW as low as 100 Hz or even 10 Hz, but that really seems overkill. Of the two units below only the Instek is a real RTSA and it has a RBW of 3kHz which seems ok to me. They do have a LCD version with 2.5 GHz coverage, but it is almost 2x the price.


Here are the links for the GPS-810 ($1750) from Instek and the Protek 3290 ($1900) which is only a "Field Strength" Analyzer, but it gives me 2.9 GHz coverage which the Instek doesn't.

http://www.instek.com/GSP-810.htm 

http://www.protektest.com/ProdInfo.asp?prodId=3290 


I also looked at the Avcom PSA-37XP ($3200) w/ 2.5GHz coverage, a LCD display, but at a much higher price tag and the RBW is only 75 kHz. The B&K 2630 ($1900) gives you a tracking generator, but the RBW is only 20 kHz if I read specs correctly;

http://www.avcomofva.com/products/de...p?page=psa37xp 

http://www.bkprecision.com/www/np_specs.asp?m=2630 


It was also suggested to look at the used market which I did, but I'm not into 'boat anchors' especially considering the weight of some of these (60 lbs). While it doesn't have to be a handheld unit, I need some type of portability. Also, those $30k units from 20 years ago are way to much machine for me even though the prices are sometimes good if you can find someone that has them and can align them (I have and he was trying to sell me a Aglient 8650 or something close to that for around $3k).


Hope most of that made sense.


----------



## AntAltMike

Someone who has an Avcom "37" of some variety posted in another forum that Avcom wanted about $1,000 to fix it, and he was hoping that some member could point him to an independent repair company, which no one did. If that is a representative Avcom. out-of-warranty repair charge, then I'd say if any comparison between buying an Avcom product and a competing one is anywhere near close, I'd go with the other brand.


----------



## Anti-ant

Purchased house with existing antennae, didn't get all local UHF channels, but we were able to get sporadic Digital signal on our HDTV set, so we decided to purchase new Yagi style Antenna (43XG) from Antennas Direct. Once it was set up things were worse then before.


Debating on whether to go back to Cable, but aren't ready to get hit with the huge bill.


If anyone has any suggestions please advise.


-AA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ken H* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Please post your experiences with antennas, preamps, all related equipment, and installation experiences. Indoor & outdoor. To include mounting, cabling, connectors, rotors, etc.
> 
> 
> - Be specific; brands, models, sources, prices, etc.
> 
> 
> - What works, what doesn't, and why?
> 
> 
> - Tricks of the trade, and unique solutions.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for your participation. AVS is only as good as it's members, and our members are the best.


----------



## enier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Anti-ant* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Purchased house with existing antennae, didn't get all local UHF channels, but we were able to get sporadic Digital signal on our HDTV set, so we decided to purchase new Yagi style Antenna (43XG) from Antennas Direct. Once it was set up things were worse then before.
> 
> 
> Debating on whether to go back to Cable, but aren't ready to get hit with the huge bill.
> 
> 
> If anyone has any suggestions please advise.
> 
> 
> -AA



Start with antennaweb.org so you'll know the direction and distances of broadcast towers in your area. Then you'll have to decide which stations you want to get which will determine the antenna you need. A lot of times all you need to do is reposition the antenna to get most if not all the stations you want.


----------



## videobruce

AntAltMike; $1k to repair a $3k unit isn't really outlandish depending on what's wrong with the unit. With something that specialized I wouldn't be surprised that few if any would or even couild repair it. I doubt I would even consider sending to anywhere other than back to the manufacture.


Other than that, where are all the TV engineers in this thread with all that in depth topic discussion??


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Anti-ant* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If anyone has any suggestions please advise.



Well, your alias doesn't make me optimistic, but here's some advice for you.


First, if you want help on this forum we need more information than just what antenna you're using. Distances to the stations, frequencies (real, not virtual) of the digital signals, call letters of the stations you're having trouble with (as not all are broadcasting at high power or from tall towers yet), and what relative analog signals look like. A brief summary of terrain (trees, buildings, hills) between you and the transmitters would also be helpful. You should also include information on what, if anything, is connected between the antenna and your tuner (multiplexers, splitters, etc.) age of coaxial cable and connectors, and tuner model.


Once we have that, it should be easy to determine what the problem is and help you fix it, or tell you the problem can't be easily fixed.


----------



## Konrad2

AntAltMike writes:


> Unfortunately, I am not outfitted to produce any kind of a screen capture


There's always the old fashioned method: point a camera at the screen.


videobruce writes:


} With 4600 posts it's kinda impossible to read through them all.


I did. It takes awhile. You didn't miss a thrilling discussion on spectrum analysers.


} Some have suggested RBW as low as 100 Hz or even 10 Hz


I could see 10 Hz or even lower for audio, but it certainly sounds

like overkill for RF.


What RF application needs 10 Hz?


How are you going to display it?


A HD display at 1920x1080 would only give you a 19,200 Hz wide display.

A Apple/Dell $$$$ 30" 2560x1600 display will give a 25,600 Hz wide display.

A 1200 dpi laser printer with 14" paper gives at most a 168,000 Hz wide display.


} It was also suggested to look at the used market which I did, but

} I'm not into 'boat anchors' especially considering the weight of

} some of these (60 lbs).


} While it doesn't have to be a handheld unit, I need some type of

} portability.


Portable means it has a handle and fits through a submarine hatch. 


I've also been looking at spectrum analysers. For those of us who only

require submarine hatch level portability, does anyone have thoughts on

the Tektronix 7000 series SA plugins? I already have the mainframe.


Has anyone found a SA that connects to a computer? (e.g. a "plugin"

except using a computer for display instead of a scope/analyser mainframe)


At the very low end, there is the Digiair, available from solidsignal.com.

But at 1 pixel per channel, it doesn't look very useful. (It's really a

signal level meter with an extremely wimpy SA mode thrown in.)


I guess the real question that both videobruce and I have, is:

what is the least expensive SA that will get the job done?


----------



## videobruce

I don't understand your paragraph on video display resolution for HD or computer monitors as is has NOTHING to do with the subject.


The 100 & 10 Hz for Resolution BandWidth was a recomendation I have seen a couple of time for tuning filters, but I suspect they were talking about if filters at the board component level. Something I doubt I would ever do.


I have the option of the Protek 3201 or the Instek 810 at around $1700 for either with return privileges.


----------



## AntAltMike

I use a 100Khz bandwidth filter resolution when adjusting FM equalization notches in master antenna systems in which the FM is to be deliberately incorporated, but must not contribute to the overload of the distribution amplifiers. And in the instance of someone needing to attenuate the aural carrier of an NTSC channel where there is an ATSC channel immediately above it, like a channel 2 NTSC aural carrier at 59.75Mhz, without damaging the channel 3 NTSC pilot at 60.9 Mhz, a grade of resolution a little finer than 100 Khz would be helpful but not essential.


----------



## videobruce

Ok, Mike any anyone else, why are these _other_ guys saying 100Hz and even 10Hz for a RBW??









Where would one need something that tight??


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...why are these _other_ guys saying 100Hz and even 10Hz for a RBW??



So it won't seem out of place alongside their Lamborghinis. Or their 1080p TVs.


They may also prefer Monster Cable test leads.


----------



## videobruce

Not in these forums, I was referring to articles I have read from various sources.


----------



## Konrad2

> I don't understand your paragraph on video display resolution

> for HD or computer monitors as is has NOTHING to do with the subject.


My point is that there will be so much data that there is no way

to display it.


A standard TV channel in the US is 6 MHz wide.


If you want a spectrum analyser to show you a graph that is 6 MHz wide

and resolve down to 10 Hz, you need a display with 600,000 pixel

horizontal resolution. I don't know of any display that has anywhere

near that resolution, whether CRT, LCD, plasma, DLP, or paper.


A CRT might be 100 dpi. A laser printer might be 1200 dpi.

At 1200 dpi you would need a piece of paper 41.6 feet (12.7 meters) wide.


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ok, Mike any anyone else, why are these _other_ guys saying 100Hz and even 10Hz for a RBW??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where would one need something that tight??



videobruce,

Narrow resolutions are often used for measuring phase noise and/or am noise on an unmodulated carrier or frequency source. The RBW (Resolution BandWidth) is basically the IF bandwidth of the analyzer. It does not equate to pixels, or more correctly, datapoints, in any way. It is a way to characterize how much energy is being analyzed.


Datapoints on the other hand, are how many samples are shown in the trace or recorded to disk. Too narrow of a RBW coupled with a low number of datapoints on wide sweeps leaves gaps where no energy is analyzed. Wide RBWs coupled with a high number of datapoints over the same sweep range causes the same energy to be included in multiple datapoints, and therefore unintentional averaging occurs. Both RBW and Video Bandwidth (VBW) need to be set for the job you are trying to do.


Mike is correct in using 100 kHz for 6MHz TV channels. 100 kHz RBW/30 kHz VBW and 30 kHz RBW/30 kHz VBW are the two most common setups for looking at a whole TV channel.


Bob Chase

Director of Engineering

KHCW


----------



## videobruce

Konrad2; OK, I understand now. Couldn't figure where you were comming from.


bobchase; Ok, where would one need anything less than 3kHz as two or three of my choices allow? How about a 'FM' broadcast signal or maybe a two-way transmission?


What do you think of this Instek 810 as a choice what what I have posted? I have the return option on the Protek, but I doubt that would satisfy me in the long run.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> > I don't understand your paragraph on video display resolution
> 
> > for HD or computer monitors as is has NOTHING to do with the subject.
> 
> 
> My point is that there will be so much data that there is no way
> 
> to display it.
> 
> 
> A standard TV channel in the US is 6 MHz wide.
> 
> 
> If you want a spectrum analyser to show you a graph that is 6 MHz wide
> 
> and resolve down to 10 Hz, you need a display with 600,000 pixel
> 
> horizontal resolution. I don't know of any display that has anywhere
> 
> near that resolution, whether CRT, LCD, plasma, DLP, or paper.



This is too easy.


I have a 6MP camera. The images are about 3000x2000 pixels. My monitor is only 1280x1080. How do I display the whole picture? Well, to see the whole picture, a bunch of pixels (way more than half) are discarded. But I can zoom in and only show a portion of the picture at a time and see each individual pixel. Likewise, with a SA, there should be no problem "zooming in" on the part of the spectrum you want to analyze.


Sure, you can't see the whole thing at once at that resolution. But who said you had to look at the whole thing at once?


----------



## AntAltMike

I doubt that it is even physically possible to construct a 10Hz wide filter with its center frequency in the RF broadcast band. If it was possible, it would be nearly impossible to determine the center value of such a filter with the precision needed to use it. And most RF signals under consideration would drift by more than 10 Hz, making them unsuitable for visual analysis on a display that repeatedly samples it and creates the illusion of a line by locating the briefly sustained images on top of one another.


Any advice to get a spectrum analyzer with an RBW of 100Hz or 10Hz was either a typo, leaving out the K, or was made by someone who didn't understand that this was to be used for RF frequencies.


While sreneger's exposition on how one views large digitized pictures on a screen with discrete pixels, the reality is, if someone is trying to analyze the quality of a TV channel, they really need to see the whole 6Mz at one time.


As far as I know, a monochrome CRT screen supports continuous variation in beam intensity and is therefore theoretically is capable of infinite resolution, but never achieves it because of other limitations of the tube and input source. The tunable bandpass filter that "sweeps" the band section selected for viewing is sometimes controlled by an analog voltage ramp generator, so horizontal resolution of that ramp cannot necessarily be conveniently counted in pixels.


----------



## WishIhadHDTVnow

I'm new and about to get an HDTV.

In my area, most stations brodcast in UHF, but their channel numbers range from 2 to 66. If i got an UHF only antenna, how would I receive channels 2 thru 13?


----------



## etcarroll

Start with antennaweb.org


----------



## holl_ands

When you copy/paste the antennaweb.org results, also provide your location (zipcode, preferably nearest cross streets) and whether there are nearby hills/buildings between you and the broadcast towers.


----------



## WishIhadHDTVnow

"Start with antennaweb org "


That is where I started and the confusion arose. If a UHF antenna picks up channels 14 thru 69, and antennaweb showed some channels 2 thru 12 broadcasting on the UHF band. How does that work?


----------



## brad_arth

The 2-12 channels are a 'shortcut' per-se ...look at the frequency they are running at....I believe its the last catagory on that same page. That would be the number your looking at when talking about UHF.


----------



## brad_arth

Antennaweb shows that I could use a medium directional antenna. I am having a hard time finding reviews of that type and finding the models. Any help or recommendations would be appreciated, thank you.


----------



## lastplace




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *brad_arth* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Antennaweb shows that I could use a medium directional antenna. I am having a hard time finding reviews of that type and finding the models. Any help or recommendations would be appreciated, thank you.




I have a channel master 4228 mounted in the attic with most stations 30 miles away, all 276 deg west-northwest. It works great. Purchased it locally for $69.

http://www.channelmaster.com/images/4228.jpg


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *brad_arth* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Antennaweb shows that I could use a medium directional antenna. I am having a hard time finding reviews of that type and finding the models. Any help or recommendations would be appreciated, thank you.



In an earlier posts, you provided fol info:


channel - compass - miles - freq

6.1 - 87 - 4.6 - 22

3.1 - 90 - 4.6 - 45

7.1 - 89 - 4.6 - 20

26.1 - 120 - 6.7 - 17

42 - 194 - 17.7 - 42

15 - 194 - 17.7 - 15


The nearly right angle difference between two directions means that most "medium directional" antennas will have difficulty developing gain in both directions.

The 120 degree direction provides additional complication.


However, most of the stations are nearby and will be received with a strong signal no matter what antenna you use--although multipath may be a problem.


I would agree with sregener's earlier suggestion to try the inexpensive CM4221/3021 4-Bay antenna with a rotator.


However, you may get lucky without a rotator and be able to point the antenna towards the furthest away stations (194 degrees) and hope that your receiver isn't overwhelmed by multipath in the other directions. A lower gain antenna, like the DB-2 (a 2-Bay antenna) is probably better suited if you want to try this configuration since the right angle null depth is reduced.


=====================================

If you click on "antenna info" at antennaweb.org, they aren't very helpful describing a "Green", "Medium Directional" antenna, other than if you check the antenna patterns, they indicate that it should have same gain in ALL directions:

"These antennas include novel stick, wing shaped or disk antennas with long elements."


"Wing shaped" antennas probably refer to the Channel Master 3010 StealthTenna and Winegard GS-1100 Sensar, both commonly used with a Sat Dish for On-Air reception....

C-M hasn't posted antenna patterns and W-G only shows CH2, 9 and 50, where it has right angle nulls and would have less gain than the DB-2 for most UHF channels. Hence, they do NOT have the same gain in ALL directions. Would it work in your location??? Maybe--check around the neighborhood. Be sure to use the NON-AMPLIFIED model to prevent signal overload. And "point" the antenna so the wings do NOT point towards a desired direction.


"Disk antennas" probably refers to the C-M 3000A SmarTenna and the Winegard MS-1000....but they don't have "long elements"....whatever that is supposed to be....

These are true omnidirectional antennas with equal (zero) gain in ALL directions--seemingly just what you want... However, it also means no reduction of undesired multipath signal components... You might want to try it, but with zero gain, the station 17.7 miles away may cause problems...


So what is a "novel stick" antenna??? My guess is a 2-Bay or 4-Bay antenna.....and for now I'm "sticking" with that story....especially 'cuz we know they work....


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WishIhadHDTVnow* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> "Start with antennaweb org "
> 
> 
> That is where I started and the confusion arose. If a UHF antenna picks up channels 14 thru 69, and antennaweb showed some channels 2 thru 12 broadcasting on the UHF band. How does that work?



And then simply copy/paste the antennaweb.org results into a post, including your location (zipcode, preferably nearest cross streets) and general description of any nearby hills/buildings that may block the signal...


In antennaweb.org results, the REAL channel is in the LAST column, whereas the VIRTUAL channel number (e.g. 7.1, 7-1) points back to the original analog channel assigment.


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> I doubt that it is even physically possible to construct a 10Hz wide filter with its center frequency in the RF broadcast band. If it was possible, it would be nearly impossible to determine the center value of such a filter with the precision needed to use it. And most RF signals under consideration would drift by more than 10 Hz



I never really thought about that since I assume he/they were talking aboput $30-60k analyzers that wouldn't waste my time even taking a look at (because of price). I can't remember where I read it as I have been doing searches for information many times.


I appears Protek will be importing from GSI (actual manufacture) a new model. Unlike their "Field Strength" Analyzers it is label a "Spectrum Analyzer":

http://www.gsinstrument.com/eng/prod...re/rf_7830.htm 


I have a unconfirmed price of $2600.


I'm still leaning towards the Instek 810. The tracking generator option adds another $580 to the base $1710 bringing it to $2290 which has to installed before you purchase (it isn't a user upgrade or retrofit after the fact). I know it's use for filters, but I don't know how much use I would have with it.

How could it be used for antennas to see the bandpass or could it?


----------



## WishIhadHDTVnow

"In antennaweb org results, the REAL channel is in the LAST column, whereas the VIRTUAL channel number (e.g. 7.1, 7-1) points back to the original analog channel assigment."


zip code 60099 Zion IL no hills or trees multiple level home

* yellow - uhf WTTW-DT 11.1 PBS CHICAGO IL 166° 41.1 47

* yellow - uhf WPWR-DT 50.1 UPN GARY IN 167° 41.1 51

* yellow - uhf WLS-DT 7.1 ABC CHICAGO IL 166° 41.1 52

* yellow - uhf WMAQ-DT 5.1 NBC CHICAGO IL 166° 41.1 29

* yellow - uhf WFLD-DT 32.1 FOX CHICAGO IL 166° 41.1 31

* yellow - uhf WCIU-DT 26.1 IND CHICAGO IL 166° 41.1 27

* yellow - uhf WGN-DT 9.1 WB CHICAGO IL 166° 41.1 19

* yellow - uhf WSNS-DT 44.1 TEL CHICAGO IL 166° 41.1 45

* green - uhf WXFT-DT 60.1 TFA AURORA IL 166° 41.1 59

* green - uhf WCPX-DT 38.1 i CHICAGO IL 166° 41.1 43

* red - vhf BAM-DT 2.1 CBS CHICAGO IL 165° 40.0 3

* red - uhf WPXE-DT 55.1 i KENOSHA WI 359° 44.5 40

* red - uhf WGBO-DT 66.1 UNI JOLIET IL 165° 40.0 53

* red - uhf WYCC-DT 20.1 PBS CHICAGO IL 165° 40.0 21

* blue - ufo WTMJ-DT 4.1 NBC MILWAUKEE WI 359° 44.2 28

* blue - uhf WISN-DT 12.1 ABC MILWAUKEE WI 357° 45.7 34

* blue - vhf WMVS-DT 10.1 PBS MILWAUKEE WI 359° 44.5 8

* violet - uhf WMVT-DT 36.1 PBS MILWAUKEE WI 359° 44.5 35

* violet - uhf WCGV-DT 24.1 UPN MILWAUKEE WI 359° 44.5 25

* violet - uhf WJJA-DT 48 IND RACINE WI TBD 359° 43.9 48



Now I'm beginning to understand it now. So the number to the far right is the number you would punch in on the HDTV tuner, right? So a UHF only antenna would suffice in my case, except CBS in Chicago. Thanks for helping me see the light.

Dan


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WishIhadHDTVnow* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So the number to the far right is the number you would punch in on the HDTV tuner, right? So a UHF only antenna would suffice in my case, except CBS in Chicago.



You could definitely do it that way. However, all stations include PSIP information with the virtual channels listed on the left. After you run the autoprogram feature on your tuner/television, you could punch in the virtual channels and it should tune into the stations the same.


However, as far as your antenna is concerned, only the real channel number matters.


At your distance, I doubt any antenna is going to get good reception of WBBM-DT on channel 3.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...I'm still leaning towards the Instek 810. The tracking generator option adds another $580 to the base $1710 bringing it to $2290 which has to installed before you purchase (it isn't a user upgrade or retrofit after the fact). I know it's use for filters, but I don't know how much use I would have with it....
> 
> 
> How could it be used for antennas to see the bandpass or could it?



I bought a white noise generator with a 5-2,000Mhz output and -10dBmV output level for about $300 that is the size of a cigarette pack. I think it was made by Applied Instruments. It broke once, a year after I bought it, and I think they charged me about $55 to repair it. I sometimes use that when I bench-test filters.


I think my Blonder Tongue BTSA4, which I keep for backup but never use because its tuning controls S-U-C-K, has an internal noise generator in it that can be accessed through a jack on the side of its case, using a special plug accessory that I don't have.


Sometimes, I have access to a franchised cable system that has digital channels starting from around 500Mhz to 550Mhz and use that to analyze my tunable UHF bandpass filter's roll-offs.


The spectrum analyzers I have owned don't have marker generators, so I don't have "hands-on" familiarity with them, but I guess they generate narrow frequency spikes that probably look like FM radio carriers. To tune a lowpass or highpass roll-off, you set one of those at the frequency you want to pass unimpeded and one at the frequency at which you believe you have interference and then tune the filter to perform optimally. To center or flatten a bandpass adjustment, you set one marker at the low end of the channel and one at the high end, and then center the adjustment within the mechanical range of the settings at which the two markers remain at equal strength.


----------



## videobruce

Is it better to tune a TV single channel trap (filter) with the actual signal as opposed to a generated signal??


----------



## AntAltMike

It is better to tune it in-circuit, since you can see the tradeoff between preserving the desired signal and attenuating the undesired one. I often have to pass a digital channel 48 while attenuating an analog chanel 50 from one antenna, and then mix that with the signal from another antenna that receives the analog channel 50 while attenuating the channel 48. At UHF frequencies, that takes some compromising, so I can best evaluate my compromise by evaluating the performance of the filter on the signals to be attenuated.


----------



## holl_ands

An off-the-shelf RF Noise Gen for $300 sounds pretty good.


However, I am aware of at least one RF Noise Gen Kit for $39:
http://www.elecraft.com/manual/N-gen...%20rev%20C.pdf 
http://www.elecraft.com 

Search for the NGEN Kit in the Mini-Modules section--note user comments at top of the page.


The NGEN specs say within 3 dB from 100 kHz to 500 MHz, although the Minicircuits MAR-1

spec sheet shows only 3 dB down at 1000 MHz:
http://www.minicircuits.com/cgi-bin/...vv105.gif&bv=4 

After all, why would a Ham radio operator need anything above the 434 MHz Amateur TV band....


If $39 still seems like an outrageous price, then you might want to simply connect the

noisy output of a zener diode to the input of an extra VHF/UHF Preamp.


----------



## holl_ands

The fol. Dallas-Maxim App Note also describes a DIY Noise Gen project using a variety of zener diodes:
http://pdfserv.maxim-ic.com/en/an/AN3469.pdf 

They decided to cascade two MAX2611 Amp modules (3 dB down at 1100 MHz),

so the response probably falls off gradually beyond the "flat" 100 MHz section they chose to display.


=====================================

Another Noise Gen DIY experience:
http://astro.u-strasbg.fr/~koppen/RJove/calibrator.html 


=====================================

FYI: www.noisecom.com also makes Noise Sources and Noise Diode components.


----------



## barchamb

Here is my antennaweb.org info:


* yellow - uhf KCOY-DT 12.1 CBS SANTA MARIA CA 99° 20.7 19

* yellow - uhf KEYT-DT 3.1 ABC SANTA BARBARA CA 123° 47.3 27

* yellow - uhf KTAS-DT 34.1 TEL SAN LUIS CA 326° 23.9 34

* red - uhf KSBY-DT 6.1 NBC SAN LUIS OBISPO CA 327° 23.9 15


I currently have a DB-2 mounted in my attic, and with that, I get 19 with anywhere between 80 - 100% signal, and 27 with anywhere between 50 and 75% signal. However, I am not getting a signal from 15 at all. Looking at the "View Street Level Map", the elements (bowties) on my DB-2 are pointed roughly in the direction of 19 and 27. In my area, 19 was the only station broadcasting HD anyway, the others were just retransmitting their SD content, so I didn't care about 15. Now 15 is doing HD, and I'd like to get both. Since they are pretty much in opposite directions from each other, that probably means I need a rotator, or a strong omni, correct?


----------



## Konrad2

> I need a rotator, or a strong omni, correct?


Keep in mind that a rotator means that 2 people can't watch

two different shows at once. Or 1 person and a DVR.

A DVR is unlikely to be able to move the rotator.


Keep in mind that a omni is more likely to add multipath.


Another option is 2 antennas. You can use 2 downleads and a

switchbox, or use a "Join-Tenna" or similar. You might be able

to get away with using a splitter backwards, if it doesn't

add too much multipath.


You may want to find out if these stations will stay UHF, or

if they will move to VHF after the analog shutdown and frequency

swapfest.


Also note that 15 is listed as "red", so you might need a

higher gain antenna for it. You could try pointing your DB2

at KSBY and see how well it does.

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm 


[ Not an endorsement of warrenelectronics.com or the Channel Master

Join-Tenna. I've never used either of them. Word is that the

Join-Tenna is not shielded. ]


----------



## barchamb

Thanks for the tip on the join-tenna. However, it works by blocking out a certain range of channels. The channels I care about are 15, 19, and 27, and the join-tenna blocks 14-29, 30-49, or 50-69, so it would basically block all the channels I care about instead of blocking 2 and letting one through, which is what I would need.


And, as you state, the whole point is to use the DVR, so a rotator is out of the question. Sounds like I'm kinda screwed, huh?


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *barchamb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the tip on the join-tenna. However, it works by blocking out a certain range of channels. The channels I care about are 15, 19, and 27, and the join-tenna blocks 14-29, 30-49, or 50-69, so it would basically block all the channels I care about instead of blocking 2 and letting one through, which is what I would need.



Nope. They are tuned to the correct frequency. So, the 14-29 can be tuned to a frequency within that range. However, expect 1 - 2 channels either side of the required frequency to be blocked.

....jc


----------



## bobchase

videobruce

If you want to know about tracking generators and spectrum analyzers, check out the agilent website. Look for Application Note AN-150 for starters. It's a huge PDF but it's full of information about SA's, how to set them up, and why. There is a wealth of info on that website, including operation manuals. While you probably will never need to own one, the App Notes and the Op Manuals can take you way past SA 101.


Bob C


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It is better to tune it in-circuit, since you can see the tradeoff between preserving the desired signal and attenuating the undesired one. I often have to pass a digital channel 48 while attenuating an analog chanel 50 from one antenna, and then mix that with the signal from another antenna that receives the analog channel 50 while attenuating the channel 48. At UHF frequencies, that takes some compromising, so I can best evaluate my compromise by evaluating the performance of the filter on the signals to be attenuated.



When you tune some notch filters, the tuning can change if it has a removable box or lid....and of course you should use a non-metalic tuning wand. If this detuning occurs, you could inject an opposite amount of detuning to compensate.


How accurate do you need to be? The bandwidth of the video carrier is fairly wide and the FM aural carrier signal is about 200 kHz wide...but you're trying to center the notch on the carrier spike...so probably within 10-30 kHz or so.
http://www.sencore.com/newsletter/No...files/HDTV.htm 

Note you can check FCC database to see if an NTSC station has been assigned a freq offset up or down by about 10 kHz...with a tolerance of under 1 kHz.


=====================================

If you have a choice of spending $300 on a RF Noise Gen or $300 on a Tracking Generator option for the Spectrum Analyzer, I would probably favor the latter because it is more flexible and makes it much easier to print out a nice smooth frequency response plot, rather than looking for the location of a fuzzy "notch" in a random noise curve.

The (expensive) tracking generators I've used provide a rapid sweep through the band so you can immediately see the displayed frequency response curve as you tweak the device.


====================================

Another consideration with an RF Noise Gen is the available dynamic range. The Instek noise floor seems to be -100 dBm (typical) for 220 kHz VBW, which is equivalent to -153 dBm/Hz. That's -82 dBm for 6 MHz bandwidth. [Note that the specs are confusing...maybe the noise floor is -95 dBm, in which case subtract 5 dB from the dynamic range.]


The API NS-1 output spec is -39 dBm for 24 MHz bandwith, which is equivalent to -113 dBm/Hz. That's -45 dBm for 6 MHz bandwidth. So you can display a notch depth of not quite 37 dB.


The $39 NGEN Kit claims 35 dB "excess noise", (i.e. more than -174 dBm/Hz thermal noise floor), which is a noise output level of -139 dBm/Hz. That's -71 dBm for 6 MHz bandwidth. So you can display a notch depth of not quite 14 db...so you'll need to use a Preamp with the NGEN to pump up the dynamic range.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When you tune some notch filters, the tuning can change if it has a removable box or lid....



Blonder Tongue actually sells an overpriced "tuning cover" to use when tuning the 10dB notch trap in its single channel UHF preamps. It is basically a metal cover with a tiny hole in it.



A funny thing about tuning Winegard UT-2700s is that even though the adjustable tuning component is a capacitor, which is non-inductive, it is in the proximity of inductive circuitry, so an inductive tuning tool will throw off the tuning value just by being near some other component when adjusting those variable capacitors. These appear to be the same variable capacitors that I have no trouble tuning in MX-4U 4-channel combiners (discontinued a decade ago, but I have a stash that I won't share with anyone at any price!) using the smaller of the two, Radio Shack, anti-static blade-type tuner adjustment tools, but when I remove the tool from the UT-2700s, the notch moves, so I first see what the maximum benefit is that I can get with the tool installed, then I misadjust it a little to the left and right until, upon removal of the tool, the notch jumps back to where it had been optimal with the tool inserted in the capacitor's slot.


The slot on those tunable capacitors is really slim, and I haven't yet found a non-inductive tuning blade. If anyone can recommend one, I'll buy it and give it a shot.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *barchamb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here is my antennaweb.org info:
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf KCOY-DT 12.1 CBS SANTA MARIA CA 99° 20.7 19
> 
> * yellow - uhf KEYT-DT 3.1 ABC SANTA BARBARA CA 123° 47.3 27
> 
> * yellow - uhf KTAS-DT 34.1 TEL SAN LUIS CA 326° 23.9 34
> 
> * red - uhf KSBY-DT 6.1 NBC SAN LUIS OBISPO CA 327° 23.9 15
> 
> 
> I currently have a DB-2 mounted in my attic, and with that, I get 19 with anywhere between 80 - 100% signal, and 27 with anywhere between 50 and 75% signal. However, I am not getting a signal from 15 at all. Looking at the "View Street Level Map", the elements (bowties) on my DB-2 are pointed roughly in the direction of 19 and 27. In my area, 19 was the only station broadcasting HD anyway, the others were just retransmitting their SD content, so I didn't care about 15. Now 15 is doing HD, and I'd like to get both. Since they are pretty much in opposite directions from each other, that probably means I need a rotator, or a strong omni, correct?



Just a few quick comments:


1. FCC database shows an analog K15DB (KTBN repeater) Santa Barbara station on CH15,

which could block reception of KSBY-DT from SLO:
http://radiostationworld.com/Locatio...a/tv.asp?m=sba 


2. Although antennaweb.org shows it as "yellow", an omni will probably not be adequate for KEWY,

since it is 47 miles away.


3. You might want to try inexpensive CM-4221 4-Bay with rear reflector screen removed so it is bi-directional.


4. And moving the DB-2 outdoors might even work...


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> It is better to tune it in-circuit, since you can see the tradeoff between preserving the desired signal and attenuating the undesired one.



As in using the actual TV signal as opposed to a 'test' signal from a TG?


> Quote:
> After all, why would a Ham radio operator need anything above the 434 MHz Amateur TV band....



Because privileges extend well above 440. Who said anything about Ham radio??









holl_ands; A broadband noise generator would be as good as a tracking generator??


bobchase; I have been to Agilents' site, but their application documents seem to be way above me (at this point anyway). I will take another look though. I also have been at Sencores' site and came across some articles, but those seem to be just the opposite of Agilent; a little too basic. I need something in between.


> Quote:
> When you tune some notch filters, the tuning can change if it has a removable box or lid



The older filters are externally tunable. The newer traps are CATV type cylinders that would have to be opened to be re-tuned. It's the older ones that I would be tuning. (no problem)


holl_ands; Just saw and printed that Sencore link yesterday. Nice brief reference for DTV signals.


> Quote:
> If you have a choice of spending $300 on a RF Noise Gen or $300 on a Tracking Generator option for the Spectrum Analyzer, I would probably favor the latter



The TG option for the 810 is $600. At $300 I wouldn't have a issue, but since I can get the Instek 810 for UNDER $1700 (competition is getting hungry) I don't see the value for me.


----------



## videobruce

A update on the choices.


Protek 3201 $1375

Instek GSP-810 $1675 (w/ TG $2265)
*New:*

Protek 7830 "Spectrum Analyzer" under $2600.


I requested a owners manual. Here is the spec sheets. I compared this with the 3201/3290 and I am puzzled regarding them calling this a "Spectrum" Analyzer since there is *NO* RBW listed in the specs. The only 'bandwidth' that is listed is the same for the 3201/3290;


> Quote:
> Modulation Bandwidth: Narrow FM:12.5 kHz, AM/SSB:2.4 kHz and Wide FM:180 kHz all at -6db



They also list a "step range";


> Quote:
> AM/SSB:2.5 kHz fixed. FM:6.25 kHz



It still seems as this 810 is the best buy, but I don't want to rule out the others yet.


----------



## apotocki

Hi - rather new to the forum and have found a wealth of information in it.


I recently purchased my HDTV (50 inch Sony) and have a question relating to HDTV reception. I'm not in a position right now to 'upgrade' my cable (WOW) to include the HDTV channels so I went out and purchased an indoor RCA (ant585) which is a powered antenna with 25db of gain (cost $39.95).

I connected the antenna and the TV recognized (found) all my local HD stations.

The stations all come in looking good....but.....here is my problem/question.

It appears that all of the stations experience intermittent sound cut-outs (only lasting for a second or two) and even less occasional picture 'glitches'. Any ideas? Is this just the nature of the local HD broadcasting? or, is the indoor antenna not getting good enough reception? or, is the 25db gain overpowering the tv? I do not experience this with the cable channels.

My first thought was that I need a better antenna.....but before going through that, I wanted to get additional opinion/feedback. I'm about 20 miles from all of my local HD stations with no buildings and just a couple trees nearby.

Any and all feedback/suggestions are appreciated.


Thanks

Alan


----------



## videobruce

Geting back to the 100 & 10 Hz RBW recomendations, the following was taken from Agilents' app. note AN 1315:


> Quote:
> RBW filter:
> 
> Since noise is a function of the RBW filter, use caution when interpreting phase noise or DANLspecifications.
> 
> Phase noise specifications are normalized to a 1 Hz RBW filter even if the analyzer does not have a 1 Hz RBW filter. In order to determine the actual achievable phase noise level, it is necessary to convert from the specified 1 Hz RBW to the actual RBW filter used for the measurement. The correction factor is determined as follows: Phase noise level correction (dB) = 10 log (actual RBW /1 Hz)
> 
> For example, the phase noise specification for the Agilent E4411B at a 10 kHz offset is –90 dBc/Hz, but the minimum RBW setting is 10 Hz. The correction factor for the 10 Hz RBW is: 10 log (10 Hz/1Hz) = 10 dB. Taking this correction factor into account, the actual achievable phase noise is –80 dBc in the analyzer’s minimum RBW of 10 Hz.


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> is the indoor antenna not getting good enough reception? .........is the 25db gain overpowering the tv?



Possibly. See this;
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post7625830


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *apotocki* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My first thought was that I need a better antenna.....but before going through that, I wanted to get additional opinion/feedback.



Yes, you need a better antenna. Not more expensive, just better. That RCA is a piece of junk. Return it while you still can.


Good indoor antennas are the Terk HDTVi or Zenith Silver Sensor, both of which run about $30. Another good choice, although it doesn't come with a stand is the AntennasDirect DB2. Radio Shack makes an excellent indoor antenna, the 15-624 which runs about $15. If you're getting nearly perfect reception with the RCA, any of these should be more than adequate.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *apotocki* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi - rather new to the forum and have found a wealth of information in it.
> 
> 
> I recently purchased my HDTV (50 inch Sony) and have a question relating to HDTV reception. I'm not in a position right now to 'upgrade' my cable (WOW) to include the HDTV channels so I went out and purchased an indoor RCA (ant585) which is a powered antenna with 25db of gain (cost $39.95).
> 
> I connected the antenna and the TV recognized (found) all my local HD stations.
> 
> The stations all come in looking good....but.....here is my problem/question.
> 
> It appears that all of the stations experience intermittent sound cut-outs (only lasting for a second or two) and even less occasional picture 'glitches'. Any ideas? Is this just the nature of the local HD broadcasting? or, is the indoor antenna not getting good enough reception? or, is the 25db gain overpowering the tv? I do not experience this with the cable channels.
> 
> My first thought was that I need a better antenna.....but before going through that, I wanted to get additional opinion/feedback. I'm about 20 miles from all of my local HD stations with no buildings and just a couple trees nearby.
> 
> Any and all feedback/suggestions are appreciated.
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Alan



Location, Location, Location.


Get the antenna as high as is feasible (mine's at top of living room cathedral ceiling).....and attic is must better if you don't have to adjust it.....and outdoors is always best....

Get it away from other metallic (and wooden) objects as much as is feasible.

And placing it near or preferably pointing through a window towards the towers will usually find a stronger signal.


You didn't say where you were located (zipcode, preferably nearest cross streets), buildings/trees/hills in the way....

If there are no "nearby" stations (within about 10 miles) then I would recommend trying an amplified indoor antenna, such as the fol. amplified variant of the Silver Sensor, which also adds rabbit ears for VHF channels:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...lance&n=172282 


Terk makes an amplified VHF/UHF equivalent, the HDTVa, but it costs more and is not enclosed and hence isn't as resistant to abuse:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...23050?n=172282 


To make sure that there aren't any nearby low-power stations that could overload an amplified antenna, your location needs to be entered into www.2150.com/broadcast with say a 30 mile radius and be sure to check the "List Low Power" and "List Analog" boxes.

Just to make sure there are no surprises....


----------



## Konrad2

> Get it away from other metallic (and wooden) objects as much as is feasible.


Why the recommendation to keep antennas away from wood? I've read that

dry wood is fairly transparent to RF.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> > Get it away from other metallic (and wooden) objects as much as is feasible.
> 
> 
> Why the recommendation to keep antennas away from wood? I've read that
> 
> dry wood is fairly transparent to RF.



At the time, I was thinking about "wooden" RPTV and equipment cabinets that might have veneer over metallic frames....with metallic objects inside....including CDs & DVDs with metalic film.


However, I would also be concerned about nearby objects (whether metallic or "semiconductor" wood) perturbing an indoor antenna's gain pattern and esp. VSWR.


=============================================

NIST measured the attenuation of various dry and wet building materials from 500 MHz (UHF CH19)

up through 800 MHz (UHF CH69) and higher:
http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build97/art123.html 

They also tried to correlate attenuation and material density if you want to predict for other materials...


CH19, CH69:

0.2, 0.6 dB for 1/4 inch (5.7 mm) Single Pane Glass

1.3, 1.8 dB for 1/2 inch (12.5 mm) Single Pane Glass


0.35, 0.6 dB for 3/4 inch Plywood Sheet (Dry)

0.75, 1.2 dB for Two 3/4 inch Plywood Sheet (Dry)


2.0, 2.6 dB for 1.5 inch Spruce-Pine-Fir Panel (Dry)

1.4, 2.1 dB for 3 inch Spruce-Pine-Fir Panel (Dry)

2.0, 3.1 dB for 4.5 inch Spruce-Pine-Fir Panel (Dry)

4.4, 5.5 dB for 6 inch Spruce-Pine-Fir Panel (Dry)


Note the big jump from 1/4 inch to 1/2 inch Glass....very strange...

Also note the attenuation was LESS for the 3 inch thick Panel--even though it was constructed

with criss-crossed 2"x12" planks with less leakage in the cracks....very strange...


So the calculated attenuation through a "typical" roof with a 3/4 inch Plywood Sheet with

100 percent overlap for 3/8 inch thick shingles would be about 0.75 for CH19 and 1.2 dB for CH69.


Which doesn't correlate at ALL with the 13 dB +/- 7 dB attic loss actually measured.


An unexpected result even if some of the more modern ones skew the results with mylar foil backing on insulation....and at least some receive the signal at an angle through multiple 2x12s...


Clearly wooden 2x4s are capable of significantly perturbing the electromagnetic field and I would thereby expect them to perturb the antenna pattern and VSWR of any nearby antenna.


----------



## holl_ands

Re. my "eyeball" estimate of about 13 dB +/- 7 dB for indoor and/or attic loss....

Most are unspecified "indoor" locations, so it's difficult to determine whether the height gain

of an attic location is included or not...


And recall that Bob Chase measured roughy 20 dB of loss in his attic....


Here's a 265 page "ATSC Seminar" posted on Zenith's website which summarizes indoor/attic

loss measurements conducted to validate DTV coverage, starting on page 181:
http://www.zenith.com/digitalbroadca...20Appendix.pdf 

BTW: It's a 6.7 MB file.


And here are the 525 VU-graphs that goes along with it:
http://www.zenith.com/digitalbroadca...r%20Slides.pdf 

BTW: It's a 9.4 MB file.


I know there's a link with only the 19 page summary, but I couldn't get my hands on it....


===============================================

EDIT (12Oct2009): Above links no longer available on Zenith website.

Following is a much shorter 65 VU-graph summary:
http://www.iptv.org/dtv/2001/webpres...nith/index.htm


----------



## gioux

So I briefly tried getting HD over the air. So far no luck, but will keep trying. Here is the interesting thing though. I have regular old cable, do not pay for HD. I just plugged the coax into my TV. The TV appears to be getting HD channles, and it lists them as 720p or 1080i on the display and 16:9 (I have a Sony 32" xbr1). Does that mean that I am getting HD or does everyone pick up those channels but you only get real HD display if you pay? Anyone have any ideas? Thanks!


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gioux* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So I briefly tried getting HD over the air. So far no luck, but will keep trying. Here is the interesting thing though. I have regular old cable, do not pay for HD. I just plugged the coax into my TV. The TV appears to be getting HD channles, and it lists them as 720p or 1080i on the display and 16:9 (I have a Sony 32" xbr1). Does that mean that I am getting HD or does everyone pick up those channels but you only get real HD display if you pay? Anyone have any ideas? Thanks!



On most cable systems, the LOCAL HD channels are being carried as an unencrypted QAM digital signal,

as is mandated by Federal Law to be available as part of BASIC CABLE....for no additonal cost...


DCR (Digital Cable Ready) HDTVs can receive these unencrypted QAM channels without a CableCard decryption module.


Unfortunately, the cable systems go out of their way to not advertise this Federally Mandated requirement...


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> On most cable systems, the LOCAL HD channels are being carried as an unencrypted QAM digital signal,
> 
> as is mandated by Federal Law to be available as part of BASIC CABLE....for no additonal cost...Unfortunately, the cable systems go out of their way to not advertise this Federally Mandated requirement...



Where I live, ALL local HD stations are encrypted. Only way to get them on cable is to subscribe to the HDTV package, and subscribe to the digital TV package, and rent the cable box, and if you want HD-PVR thats another ten bucks a month. Sheesh, if there really are FCC rules and regulations (I doubt that there are Federal Laws) that mandate clear QAM on basic cable, these folks are in violation big time.


Sorry for helping to take this so far off the antenna topic. Just had to vent.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> On most cable systems, the LOCAL HD channels are being carried as an unencrypted QAM digital signal,
> 
> as is mandated by Federal Law to be available as part of BASIC CABLE....for no additonal cost...



I don't think there is any such law yet. Cable systems aren't even required to carry the local HD channels (i.e., no "must-carry") let alone send them in a specific manner or package.


----------



## videobruce

Are you sure it doesn't extend to digital channels??


----------



## AntAltMike

It would be impractical to implement at present. A lot of cable companies still use lowpass filters to separate their Basic from itheir deluxe or enhanced basic, so there is no available room below the lowpass point for them in such systems at present.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Where I live, ALL local HD stations are encrypted. Only way to get them on cable is to subscribe to the HDTV package, and subscribe to the digital TV package, and rent the cable box, and if you want HD-PVR thats another ten bucks a month. Sheesh, if there really are FCC rules and regulations (I doubt that there are Federal Laws) that mandate clear QAM on basic cable, these folks are in violation big time.
> 
> 
> Sorry for helping to take this so far off the antenna topic. Just had to vent.



The FCC does require that the cable company provide a cablecard if you request it instead of an HD set top box. That should save a few bucks if you have a TV with a cablecard slot.


----------



## washtenaw

edit: nevermind, there are converters to be found everywhere










I'll leave my questions just in case... now I just to have to pull up some floorboards in the attic in order to see the best way to go about fishing the cable from up there to the room below.

I just got my LCD and xbox is a beauty on it. However, that's about all I can do with it until I get the 15-624 I just ordered from Radio Shack based on recommendations given in here.


I have a question about this antenna. What products are recommended for converting the twin-lead to coax -- is it balun or bust? Where would I be able to find these products? The run will not be terribly long (20 feet at most) from my attic.


Thanks in advance, and your patience with the complete newb questions


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *washtenaw* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> edit: nevermind, there are converters to be found everywhere
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll leave my questions just in case... now I just to have to pull up some floorboards in the attic in order to see the best way to go about fishing the cable from up there to the room below.
> 
> I just got my LCD and xbox is a beauty on it. However, that's about all I can do with it until I get the 15-624 I just ordered from Radio Shack based on recommendations given in here.
> 
> 
> I have a question about this antenna. What products are recommended for converting the twin-lead to coax -- is it balun or bust? Where would I be able to find these products? The run will not be terribly long (20 feet at most) from my attic.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance, and your patience with the complete newb questions



Radio Shack also sells Baluns, like these:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 


Connect the twin-lead on the Balun to the antenna.

The other end of the Balun connects via standard coax down to your TV.

For a short run, lower cost RG-59 coax (Radio Shack again) is quite suitable and expensive RG-6 is overkill.


To minimize noise pickup and minimize loss, it is best to connect the Balun as close as possible to the antenna terminals rather than to the end of the twin-lead that comes with the antenna.


----------



## washtenaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Radio Shack also sells Baluns, like these:
> 
> 
> (snip)...
> 
> 
> Connect the twin-lead on the Balun to the antenna.
> 
> The other end of the Balun connects via standard coax down to your TV.
> 
> For a short run, lower cost RG-59 coax (Radio Shack again) is quite suitable and expensive RG-6 is overkill.
> 
> 
> To minimize noise pickup and minimize loss, it is best to connect the Balun as close as possible to the antenna terminals rather than to the end of the twin-lead that comes with the antenna.



Thanks a ton for taking the time! Weird that product searches for 'balun' really don't turn up much.


----------



## newsposter

this forum or tivo said otherwise...not sure the post..will research it when time permits


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It would be impractical to implement at present. A lot of cable companies still use lowpass filters to separate their Basic from itheir deluxe or enhanced basic, so there is no available room below the lowpass point for them in such systems at present.



Here is FCC Factsheet re "Tier Buy Through" as prescibed BY LAW in the 1992 Cable Act:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/DOC-231469A1.pdf 


1. Local broadcast channels are required to be carried on Basic Cable. [DTV are local broadcast channels.]


2. Basic Cable is the ONLY prerequisite for subscribing to programs available on either a "per channel" or "per event" basic, specifically identified as Premium (e.g. HBO, SHO/TMC, STARZ, CMAX, Playboy) or Pay Per View channels and is to include the entire Multiplex of associated Premium channels (that's over 3 dozen channels for us).


For TWC-SD, it takes 13 QAM channels to carry all of the qualifying and Premium "per channel" multiplexes plus 2 more for Local HD. (Although they could consolidate it into maybe 10 channels total.) At least a few more QAM carriers would be needed for qualifying PPV channels, Cable Modem and VoIP Phone service.


It is conceivable that some of the smaller MSOs have chosen to fit a few--perhaps as many as a dozen--QAM channels into a "gap" betwen Basic Cable and an "Expanded" tier. It would be obvious simply by looking at their channel lineup--there would be a big gap between Basic and "Expanded" channel numbers. However, I doubt that there are more than a handful of systems that have taken this approach.


But certainly not COMCAST, TWC, COX, etc. with their large number of analog and Premium Multiplex choices...plus PPV, OnDemand, VoIP and Cable Modems...


The cable operator would need to use Band Reject Filters to deny access to the "Expanded Tier", such as the fol. BRF-222-526 example:
http://www.soontai.com/BRF.html 


Like most MSOs, we have a total of 71-75 analog channels. QAM digital carriers are on higher channels. [BTW: on TWC-SD, two QAM carriers on 91 and 97 MHz (mosty Hispanic tier) are in the "FM Gap".]


So a simple LPF to roll-off "Expanded" cable (and above) simply isn't feasible in modern digital cable systems....it would also roll off access to the Premium Multiplexes, PPV, Cable Modems and VoIP.


So if they erroneously installed an antique LPF filter left over from the '70s, have your MSO replace it with a more modern Band Reject Tier Filter.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here is FCC Factsheet re "Tier Buy Through" as prescibed BY LAW in the 1992 Cable Act:
> http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/DOC-231469A1.pdf
> 
> 
> 1. Local broadcast channels are required to be carried on Basic Cable. [DTV are local broadcast channels.]



Time and again, the FCC has said that digital television is *NOT* covered by the same terms and conditions as analog. You are inferring from this document that digital television is considered legally to be "local broadcast channels." The reasoning behind this is that requiring both would be to require double carriage of broadcast programming - once in analog and once in digital - without any just compensation due to the cable company for the lost bandwidth should local stations invoke "must carry."


Charter Communications does not include HD locals in their basic package, at least in my area. They require a digital subscription in order to receive those channels. If they were in violation of FCC law, something would have been done about this before now. As it is, they've done this for over a year with no response from the FCC.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The FCC does require that the cable company provide a cablecard if you request it instead of an HD set top box. That should save a few bucks if you have a TV with a cablecard slot.



Well, I don't. I only have a PC card that will tune QAM. I don't mind spending the money for premium channels if I want them. But I am against spending extra money for channels that I can get OTA.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So if they erroneously installed an antique LPF filter left over from the '70s, have your MSO replace it with a more modern Band Reject Tier Filter.



That isn't the case. They do carry one (1) clear QAM channel. I didn't mention it earlier because it is NOT HD. It is the 24/7 weather sub channel from the local ABC station. But they encrypt the main HDTV channel from this same local station. I get this channel fine with my antenna. It's all the other networks that are 70 plus miles away that I would like to get from cable, as my OTA reception is not reliable. The local cable co carries all those distant (analog) station, but only about half of them are available even if you pay for the HD package. Granted the HDTV package does include some premium content, ESPN-HD, Discovery HD, a movie channel or two, etc. All I really want is the OTA networks HD content via clear QAM.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> the FCC has said that digital television is *NOT* covered by the same terms and conditions as analog



I've read several pages of FFC rules , regulations and definitions, and what you said, is the way it looks to me also. Cable "must carry" only one version of a local broadcast on basic cable. And the one my local company chooses to carry is the analog.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Time and again, the FCC has said that digital television is *NOT* covered by the same terms and conditions as analog. You are inferring from this document that digital television is considered legally to be "local broadcast channels." The reasoning behind this is that requiring both would be to require double carriage of broadcast programming - once in analog and once in digital - without any just compensation due to the cable company for the lost bandwidth should local stations invoke "must carry."
> 
> 
> Charter Communications does not include HD locals in their basic package, at least in my area. They require a digital subscription in order to receive those channels. If they were in violation of FCC law, something would have been done about this before now. As it is, they've done this for over a year with no response from the FCC.



Nothing is simple....let me know if my understanding of the fol isn't accurate/complete....


In Feb 2001, the FCC did not endorse Dual Must Carry rules released in a Jan 2001 "Report and Order", reportedly because they were "ambiguous" (maybe unconstitutional) and hence MSOs are NOT required to carry both analog and digital versions of local channels that elect the "Must Carry" rule.
http://www.gacable.com/images/Digita...Carry-2005.pdf 

However, the FCC did endorse the Simplex Digital Must Carry rule for digital only stations.

And "Low Power" stations apparently never had digital Must Carry but want it:
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6346147.html 


The FCC put off--again--the meeting to re-address "Must Carry" rules for local digital multicast signals---reportedly to allow time for it to be addressed in Congress (along with Broadcast Flag, et.al.)---but also cuz they didn't have the "right" concensus---so stay tuned:
http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6340640.html 


=========================================

BUT, we mustn't get too wrapped up in the brou-haha re mandatory "Must Carry" rules.


I've read that most local stations are using "Retransmission Consent" instead--which means it's whatever agreements the local station, local MSOs and franchise entities negotiate into a contract....which could/should mandate that the digital version be available unencrypted as part of Basic Cable.


Here's the Title 47 LAW that mandates that local broadcast channels must remain unencrypted:
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...0.1.1.4.23.3.4 
_§ 76.1904 Encoding rules for defined business models.

(a) Commercial audiovisual content delivered as unencrypted broadcast television shall not be encoded so as to prevent or limit copying thereof by covered products or, to constrain the resolution of the image when output from a covered product._


The wording was actually written by the MSOs and CEA as part of their voluntary Dec 2002 "Plug-and-Play Agreement" that addressed how these spiffy new digital channels are to integrated into Digital Cable Ready TVs via Navigation PODs (CableCard) and non-DCR TVs via DVI/HDMI and Firewire ports:
http://www.1394ta.org/Download/Membe...ile_stamp4.PDF 

See pdf page 36 for the applicable section and pg 4 for the MSO signatures, including COMCAST.....


[Thanks to michaelscott for the links in the SA8300HD PASSPORT thread....]


=======================================================

So you have to pester the MSO supervisors to read the fine print and clarify company policy on how to order only Local HD as part of Basic Cable for your Digital Cable Ready HDTV....which of course the CEA/MSOs somehow gerrymandered onto the ATSC Tuner Mandate.


In San Diego (and elsewhere) persistent pestering has resulted in Local (mandatory unencrypted) HD channels being available with only Basic Cable on TWC and COX....but the CSRs are clueless....


In order for Cable Techs to install the "right" Tier Filter, it helps if you have (or had) a service that use a higher frequency (e.g. Cable Modem, cancelled CableCard for a Premium tier buy-through channel(s), STB on a second TV, VoIP?, et. al.)

So YMMV....check your local thread to see if others are getting unencrypted QAM to work...


BTW: On TWC-SD (and other MSOs are following suit), all analog channels are Digital Simulcast on digital QAM carriers--but they are all encrypted--go figure--so much for the "not enough capacity" argument....


Obviously, getting Local HD via cable to work may eliminate the installation/WAF hassles and partial reception problems many of us experience with HDTV Antenna(s)---bringing this post right on-topic...


----------



## JasonBrown

What kind of antenna would folks suggest for the following? My setup is a HR10-250 HD DVR from DirecTV*:


DTV Antenna

Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live

Date Compass

Orientation Miles

From Frequency

Assignment

* yellow - uhf KDTN-DT 2.1 DAY DENTON TX 142° 17.5 43

* yellow - vhf WFAA-DT 8.1 ABC DALLAS TX 139° 14.5 9

* yellow - uhf KXAS-DT 5.1 NBC FORT WORTH TX 137° 14.8 41

* yellow - uhf KXTX-DT 40.1 TEL DALLAS TX 137° 14.8 40

* yellow - uhf KTXA-DT 21.1 UPN FORT WORTH TX 142° 17.5 18

* yellow - uhf KSTR-DT 49.1 UNI IRVING TX 142° 17.5 48

* yellow - uhf KUVN-DT 23.1 UNI GARLAND TX 137° 14.5 24

* yellow - uhf KDAF-DT 33.1 WB DALLAS TX 142° 17.5 32

* yellow - uhf KDFW-DT 4.1 FOX DALLAS TX 139° 14.5 35

* yellow - uhf KFWD-DT 52.1 IND FORT WORTH TX 137° 14.6 51

* green - uhf KDFI-DT 27.1 IND DALLAS TX 142° 17.5 36

* green - uhf KPXD-DT 68.1 i ARLINGTON TX 137° 14.4 42

* red - uhf KERA-DT 13.1 PBS DALLAS TX 136° 15.7 14

* red - uhf KMPX-DT 30.1 DAY DECATUR TX 49° 13.9 30

* red - uhf KTVT-DT 11.1 CBS FORT WORTH TX 136° 15.7 19

* blue - uhf KDTX-DT 58.1 TBN DALLAS TX 137° 14.5 45

* blue - uhf KLDT-DT 55.1 IND LAKE DALLAS TX 19° 18.9 54


really only interested in 8.1, 5.1, 21.1, 33.1, 4.1, 27.1, and 11.1


----------



## bobby515

hi first post i got a samsund hdtv lcd, hd is great reg. comcast stinks including hbo, encore, the only great picture is hd, comcast say line is good samsung said i need to live with it , is there anything i can do..

bob


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JasonBrown* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What kind of antenna would folks suggest for the following?



A Channel Master 3021 (4-bay bowtie) should be perfect for your situation. Mount it on the roof if possible, though it will likely work in an attic if you're willing to fiddle with positioning to find the best spot.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobby515* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> hi first post i got a samsund hdtv lcd, hd is great reg. comcast stinks including hbo, encore, the only great picture is hd, comcast say line is good samsung said i need to live with it , is there anything i can do..



If I understand your problem, you're saying that HD looks great, but analog and SD digital stations look terrible. There are a couple reasons why this is so, and there are some things you can do, but you may never end up happy.


First of all, your new HD set has much better resolution and definition than the older NTSC sets did. It is also probably bigger than your older set was. This is great when the picture is really clear, but when there are flaws, they'll stand out because you can see everything clearly now, while it was blurred before by the limits of the old technology. There's nothing that can be done to make analog look better than it is.


However, properly adjusting your color, brightness, contrast, and the sharpness control (which should be set at zero) may make the picture look better. An overly bright/contrasty picture will look worse than it should. Sharpness actually introduces noise into the picture, and noise is made worse on exactly those things that don't belong. You can adjust these yourself using a DVD like Video Essentials, or you can pay someone who is ISF certified to come out and adjust these things and many others that the average person shouldn't try to mess with. Typically, you'd pay $20 for a DVD and get a pretty good picture, or $300 for an ISF tech and get the best picture your set can display. The choice is yours.


----------



## bobby515

sregener , i think what you said makes lots of sense my 3 y/o rear projection, downstairs in my living room look way better, cable company checked the line tv is 2 weeks old new samsung 4000-1 32 lcd. Channel Master 3021 will this help me with hbo non hd channels????and what kind od dvd is that and where can i buy one

bob


----------



## FranksPlace2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobby515* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> hi first post i got a samsund hdtv lcd, hd is great reg. comcast stinks including hbo, encore, the only great picture is hd, comcast say line is good samsung said i need to live with it , is there anything i can do..
> 
> bob



You can consider over-the-air signals for HDTV local channels. You need a ATSC tuner and a UHF antenna. Get antenna & signal info here:
http://antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx 


Frank


----------



## bobby515

samsung tell me that the problem will get fixed it feb. when the laws change, if i switch to a dlp rear projection will it get any better.my toshiba works great..i want to take tv back i love the hd channels, but disc, encore, all hbo non high def. play like crap about 80+channels

thanks for all the impit

bob


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobby515* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Channel Master 3021 will this help me with hbo non hd channels????and what kind od dvd is that and where can i buy one



The Channel Master 3021 is an antenna for receiving over-the-air broadcasts. It won't help with HBO unless you live in one of the few communities in the country that broadcast it.


I searched Amazon and found new and used copies, as well as "The Avia Guide to Home Theater" which some say is better.


Your cable company is wrong about 2/2009 - that won't help any of the stations that are giving you troubles.


----------



## bobby515

samgsung said feb 2007 the gov. will make them change, will it help me, if not would you buy a different tv...my older projection works great this is for a bedroom

thanks again bob


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobby515* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...if not would you buy a different tv...my older projection works great...



Your older projection is not HD, right? Have you gotten very close to the screen to make sure the picture looks as good as you think it does? I suspect the same image problems are there on the old set, but it's harder to see.


I would make sure the current set is configured properly before I'd get rid of it. Any television that isn't properly set up could give you trouble, and few are set up properly at the factory - they're set up for display in a store, not for viewing at home.


----------



## bobby515

samsung has good suport and said they cannot fix it ,its 2 weeks old, my older projection is hd with same type on hd box, the picture on hbos encores max.hbo are way better, i took first tv back last week and got the same as a replacement thinking i had a bad one

bob


----------



## texasozzie

I'm looking for some advice on getting an HD Antenna. Here is the AntennaWeb data for me:


AntennaType Call Sign Ch Network City Azimath Miles Freq

yellow - uhf KFTH-DT 67.1 TFA ALVIN TX 149° 13.8 36

yellow - uhf KHOU-DT 11.1 CBS HOUSTON TX 148° 14.7 31

yellow - uhf KHCW-DT 39.1 WB HOUSTON TX 147° 14.3 38

yellow - uhf KETH-DT 24.1 TBN HOUSTON TX 150° 14.4 24

yellow - uhf KAZH-DT 57.1 AZA BAYTOWN TX 149° 13.8 41

yellow - uhf KXLN-DT 45.1 UNI ROSENBERG TX 150° 14.4 46

yellow - uhf KZJL-DT 44 SAH HOUSTON TX 148° 14.9 44

yellow - uhf KTXH-DT 20.1 UPN HOUSTON TX 150° 14.4 19

yellow - uhf KNWS-DT 51.1 IND KATY TX 148° 14.7 52

yellow - uhf KTMD-DT 47.1 TEL GALVESTON TX 149° 13.8 47

yellow - uhf KTRK-DT 13.1 ABC HOUSTON TX 145° 14.1 32

yellow - uhf KTBU-DT 55.1 IND CONROE TX 150° 14.4 42

yellow - uhf KPRC-DT 2.1 NBC HOUSTON TX 147° 14.3 35

yellow - vhf KPXB-DT 49.1 i CONROE TX 149° 13.8 5

yellow - uhf KRIV-DT 26.1 FOX HOUSTON TX 145° 14.0 27

yellow - vhf KUHT-DT 8.1 PBS HOUSTON TX 145° 14.0 9

blue - uhf KBTX-DT 3.1 CBS BRYAN TX 331° 61.0 50

violet - uhf KLTJ-DT 22.1 DAY GALVESTON TX 139° 38.5 23


I live in Houston and live in a subdivision without any buildings taller than 2 stories. I hae a 2 story house and a 1 story garage in back. I have a D*TV dish on my garage that gets a good strong signal. I had to place the dish on the garage, because I had 2 large trees (over 40') blocking the southern view from the house. I have 2 HDTVs that I want to getsignal to.


So here are my questions:


1. What model antenna would work best?

2. Where should I mount the Antenna?

3. Do I need to amp the antenna signal if I split it? What length of antenna run would require amplification?


THANKS!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasozzie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm looking for some advice on getting an HD Antenna.
> 
> 
> ...So here are my questions:
> 
> 
> 1. What model antenna would work best?
> 
> 2. Where should I mount the Antenna?
> 
> 3. Do I need to amp the antenna signal if I split it? What length of antenna run would require amplification?



1) Since all of your channels are on UHF, about 15 miles away, and within 5 degrees of each other, probably the best choice is the Channel Master 3021 (4-bay bowtie.)


2) The best place to put an antenna is always outdoors, as high as is reasonable. Indoor or attic antennas can work at your distance, but placement has to be precise, and you need a little luck to have stable reception.


3) You would not want to use an amplifier at that distance, as it would be overloaded by the strong signals. I imagine, at that distance, you'd probably need a cable run over 500 feet to really have a problem.


----------



## pclement

I recently installed a CM 7777 with my setup. Distance to towers varies (12 to 60 miles from three directions), but averages around 40 miles (the 12 miles is a low power station).


Without the CM 7777 I was getting signal strengths of 50 to 93 (In the basement, I was using a CM quad output distribution amplifier of 23 db to boost the signal at 8db per output).


With the CM 7777 installed my signal strength dropped significantly 0 to 70 with many signals lost. I removed the distribution amplifier and the signals with just the CM 7777 improved to 70 to 100. I have the power unit for the CM 7777 in the basement and have the output signal going to a dual output splitter (not a diplexer). Each output goes to a diplexer where the antennae signal is combined with my DirecTV signal (Please note that I have a Phase III DirecTV system. I understand that the AT9 (MPEG 4)system does not allow the signals to be combined.). I use a single RG6 to convey the signal to each of my H10 receivers where I again use diplexers to split the antennae signals from the DirecTV signals. This seems to work very well.There is such a thing as too much gain with the digital signals.


When I moved the power unit for the CM 7777 closer to the antennae, I was able to use the CM quad distributor with no loss in signal (but no gain either). This does allow for four outputs with no signal loss.


I am able to get Baltimore, MD, Washington, DC and Harrisburg, PA signals for ABC (except in PA), CBS, NBC, FOX, PBS, UPN (MyTV), WBN and a couple of independent channels. All in all about twenty stations (about 45 channels counting subchannels).


I do sometimes get stations farther away, but not on a regular bassis.


I am very pleased with the performance of the CM 7777 and would recommend it for use in fringe areas. I do not really need the distribution amplifier, but it does allow me to output to more TVs.


----------



## bobby515

hi sregener

if i switched to an edtv plamsa 42 '" would that be a down grade, i have read on consumer reports that on local cable some model work good, all lcd rated there for now have bad ratings for cable tv, plasma has better, mostly panasonic has the good ratings any feedback would help me thanks

bob


----------



## rlapporte

I live about 20 miles outside of Chicago and was wondering what the best antenna would be for me for HD programming. I live in a townhouse and the association forbids outdoor antennas. From my understanding, they can't enforce it, but I don't know if I really want to battle with my neighbors, so I'm leaning toward locating it in my attic. Here is the reception in my area from anennaweb:


I assume CBS will be a problem, right?


* yellow - uhf WSNS-DT 44.1 TEL CHICAGO IL 148° 22.8 45

* yellow - uhf WXFT-DT 60.1 TFA AURORA IL 148° 22.8 59

* yellow - uhf WFLD-DT 32.1 FOX CHICAGO IL 148° 22.8 31

* yellow - uhf WCIU-DT 26.1 IND CHICAGO IL 148° 22.8 27

* yellow - uhf WCPX-DT 38.1 i CHICAGO IL 148° 22.8 43

* yellow - uhf WYCC-DT 20.1 PBS CHICAGO IL 144° 22.1 21

* yellow - uhf WTTW-DT 11.1 PBS CHICAGO IL 148° 22.8 47

* yellow - uhf WPWR-DT 50.1 UPN GARY IN 148° 22.7 51

* yellow - uhf WLS-DT 7.1 ABC CHICAGO IL 148° 22.8 52

* yellow - uhf WMAQ-DT 5.1 NBC CHICAGO IL 148° 22.8 29

* yellow - uhf WGN-DT 9.1 WB CHICAGO IL 148° 22.8 19

* yellow - uhf WGBO-DT 66.1 UNI JOLIET IL 144° 22.1 53

* green - vhf WBBM-DT 2.1 CBS CHICAGO IL 144° 22.1 3

Note:


----------



## Konrad2

> I live about 20 miles outside of Chicago and was wondering what the best antenna

> would be for me for HD programming.


> I'm leaning toward locating it in my attic


In addition to avoiding a fight, the attic will protect your antenna from wind,

corrosion, etc. At the expense of less signal, perhaps a lot less if the antenna

has to "look" through metal or dense materials like brick/stone/concrete.

It's worth trying. If you don't get enough signal you can always move it

outside.


For the UHF, I'd suggest the Winegard PR-8800, assuming you have enough height

in your attic. 34"H 45"W about $40 plus shipping. Mostly aluminum, so less

weight and less problems with corrosion than steel antennas.


If you don't have the height for an 8-bay, I'd look at Yagis. The XG91 has

a good reputation.


IIRC, WBBM-DT is problematic, so see your local forum for advice.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rlapporte* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live about 20 miles outside of Chicago and was wondering what the best antenna would be for me for HD programming. I live in a townhouse and the association forbids outdoor antennas. From my understanding, they can't enforce it, but I don't know if I really want to battle with my neighbors, so I'm leaning toward locating it in my attic. Here is the reception in my area from anennaweb:
> 
> 
> I assume CBS will be a problem, right?
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf WSNS-DT 44.1 TEL CHICAGO IL 148° 22.8 45
> 
> * yellow - uhf WXFT-DT 60.1 TFA AURORA IL 148° 22.8 59
> 
> * yellow - uhf WFLD-DT 32.1 FOX CHICAGO IL 148° 22.8 31
> 
> * yellow - uhf WCIU-DT 26.1 IND CHICAGO IL 148° 22.8 27
> 
> * yellow - uhf WCPX-DT 38.1 i CHICAGO IL 148° 22.8 43
> 
> * yellow - uhf WYCC-DT 20.1 PBS CHICAGO IL 144° 22.1 21
> 
> * yellow - uhf WTTW-DT 11.1 PBS CHICAGO IL 148° 22.8 47
> 
> * yellow - uhf WPWR-DT 50.1 UPN GARY IN 148° 22.7 51
> 
> * yellow - uhf WLS-DT 7.1 ABC CHICAGO IL 148° 22.8 52
> 
> * yellow - uhf WMAQ-DT 5.1 NBC CHICAGO IL 148° 22.8 29
> 
> * yellow - uhf WGN-DT 9.1 WB CHICAGO IL 148° 22.8 19
> 
> * yellow - uhf WGBO-DT 66.1 UNI JOLIET IL 144° 22.1 53
> 
> * green - vhf WBBM-DT 2.1 CBS CHICAGO IL 144° 22.1 3
> 
> Note:



Yellow means you should have plenty of signal for a modest (e.g. CM4221, PR4400, DB-4) UHF antenna in the attic.


Although the DB-8 and PR8800 8-Bays should also work, the CM4228 8-Bay would be a better choice since it may have enough gain in the VHF band to pick up CH2, and its design uniquely provides significant gain for the upper VHF channels when DTV channels are relocated in a couple years. [As others and I have discussed in this forum many times...]


Green means you have plenty of VHF CH3 signal--but if the CM4228 is insufficient, you should use at least a pair of rabbit ears (or a DIY folded dipole)....and a UHF/VHF Combiner for the downlead.


Since most rabbit ears don't extend out to 89 inches (2.26 m), here's how to construct a higher performance folded dipole for CH3, using twin-lead:
http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html 


However, you might want to try the CM4228 or CM4221....if necessary, first with the cheap rabbit ears....at that range I should think that most any chunk of wire would work for VHF....


----------



## bobby515

is edtv better then hd with are current cable problems...consumer reports says panasonic plamsas at last review had better picture under cable conections, 4 of them rated good, all others were pooor or very bad..also how id edtv on movies and hdtv channels, all options and answeres would be great

bob


----------



## Neil L

Bob,

You are in the Antenna forum. I think you will get more response if you ask about plasma TVs in the Plasma TV section of the forum.


----------



## Morpheus_Rising

Well, I finally got my antenna mast. It's from Wade-Antenna, 1.5" OD, 16G x10 feet long, with the swagged end. What I don't understand is why the make antenna masts so thin? The thickness of the metal tube is about 1mm. I find this is too thin (it's the same thickness as my old antenna mast which had gotten crunched at the bottom where it was attached to the rotor) - it should be about 3mm thick (about 1/8") , that would make it stronger.


This is why I bought the TB-105 Support Bearing - to add extra support to the antenna mast. Which goes into another problem I had. I took the TB-105 support bearing from the box and tried to slide it onto the bottom of the antenna mast, and it would only go about 1.5" into the support bearing before stopping (halfway through). The reason was that inside the short tube part of the support bearing, in the middle was some excess metal that was bulging out, preventing the antenna mast from continuing. I had to get a rounded file and some sandpaper and file it down to remove it (it took about 30 minutes) so that the support bearing can slide through the antenna mast. I'm not sure if this is going to cause a problem since the filing/sanding has removed some of the coating.


Now all I have to do is figure out the spacing of the antenna mast (where the parts are going to go and the spacing in-between the parts). What I have worked out now is - the bottom 6-8" of the antenna mast is going to be connected to the rotor. About 2 feet, 4" above that at the 3 foot mark is where the TB-105 Support Bearing is going to go. This would leave 7 feet of antenna mast above it. Next one foot space then the two Channel Master 7777 pre-amps and then another one foot of space above that. At the 5 foot level (2 feet above the support bearing), the Wade-Antenna VIP-307SR VHF/FM antenna would be mounted (6" thick). This would leave 4.5 feet left, with the Antenna's Direct 91-XG UHF antenna mounted 4 feet above the Wade-Antenna, leaving 6" left on the antenna mast.


I'm pretty sure someone stated that you should leave a space of 4 feet between antennas. Can anyone confirm this? I have decided not to use metal guy wire for the TB-105 Support Bearing for 2 reasons: 1) it causes interference with the antennas and you should have a minmum of 4 feet between the guy wire and the antenna, and 2) the 2 coax-downlead cables from the pre-amps have to be able to move around when the antennas rotate and the guy wires would be in the way. I'm open to advice on how to improve the spacing of the components on the antenna mast.


----------



## AntAltMike

Three feet between the UHF and VHF booms is plenty. The distance needed is really determined by the antenna with the shorter wavelength. I always like to have 5 feet between two low band antennas on the same mast, and two and a half to three feet for VHF high band, and I never even give a hoot about spacing betweeh the UHFs, because unless I am using Blonder Tongue Yagis without corner reflectors, it would be physically impossible to get them too close together.


Put the UHF antenna at the top of the mast. Put the VHF three feet below it. Mount the two pre-amps between them. Set the bearing within a foot of the VHF boom, so the VHF is no more than one foot above it and the UHF four feet above the bearing and three feet above the VHF. You can even reduce that distance to half a foot if you'd like. Then, the rotor winds up wherever it winds up. Either six feet from the bearing if you leave your 10 foot rotating section intact, or a little closer if you prefer to trim it. The objective is to minimize the leverage that the rotating section has on the rest of the system.


----------



## mattdp

Winegard releasing a rotator? Will it have any advantages over the CM models? Will it have a nifty little Remote control and microscopic sized controller like the new CM models?


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mattdp* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Winegard releasing a rotator?



Godot ain't comin' See post #316, above.


----------



## Konrad2

> Although the DB-8 and PR8800 8-Bays should also work, the CM4228 8-Bay would be

> a better choice since it may have enough gain in the VHF band to pick up CH2


CH2 ? Looks like the actual digital frequency is channel 3.


The Kerry Cozad chart shows the PR-8800 as having more gain at channels

2 and 3 than your beloved CM-4228. It also has less weight and less

wind loading, and likely less problems with rust/corrosion.


The Cozad chart doesn't have the DB-8, but they tend to be about twice as expensive,

so even if it has slightly better gain you could get 2 PR-8800 (or CM-4228)

and set up a 16 bay for the same money. Or add a seperate VHF antenna.


----------



## LlamaLarry

Code:


Code:


blue - vhf      WRC     4       NBC     WASHINGTON      DC              70°     42.2    4
        blue - uhf      WDCA    20      UPN     WASHINGTON      DC              67°     41.9    20
        blue - uhf      WETA    26      PBS     WASHINGTON      DC              68°     42.0    26
        blue - vhf      WUSA    9       CBS     WASHINGTON      DC              70°     42.6    9
        blue - vhf      WTTG    5       FOX     WASHINGTON      DC              69°     42.7    5
        blue - uhf      WDCW    50      WB      WASHINGTON      DC              70°     45.5    50
        blue - vhf      WJLA    7       ABC     WASHINGTON      DC              70°     42.6    7
*       yellow - uhf    WNVT-DT 30.1    IND     GOLDVEIN        VA              103°    17.7    30
*       red - uhf       WPXW-DT 66.1    i       MANASSAS        VA              76°     25.6    43
*       violet - uhf    WJLA-DT 7.1     ABC     WASHINGTON      DC              70°     42.6    39
*       violet - uhf    WTTG-DT 5.1     FOX     WASHINGTON      DC              69°     42.7    36
*       violet - uhf    WUSA-DT 9.1     CBS     WASHINGTON      DC              70°     42.6    34
*       violet - uhf    WRC-DT  4.1     NBC     WASHINGTON      DC              70°     42.2    48

I am considering upgrading my OTA antenna but wanted to see what you guys thought. I live out in the sticks, current antenna is an unknown brand, uknown age rig that was here when I moved in 7 years ago. I have replaced the preamp with a CM 7777, replaced the balun and the external wiring. I can most of the channels listed but 5 is really iffy in the rain and 20 gives 0 signal on HR10-250 and a SIR-T451.


The house is 15 years old and I would not be the least bit surprised if the antenna were that old, or older.


House is 3 stories, mast is 5 feet above roofline, no buildings or tall trees for miles.


----------



## frozen_rope

Hi, what would be your suggestion for an HDTV antenna for me? I would like to integrate it into my DirecTv system with three HR10-250 receivers. I live in Delray Beach, FL in a two-story house and my antennaweb profile is as follows:


DTV Antenna

Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live

Date Compass

Orientation Miles

From Frequency

Assignment

* yellow - uhf WSCV-DT 51.1 TEL FORT LAUDERDALE FL 196° 34.2 52

* yellow - uhf WAMI-DT 69.1 TFA HOLLYWOOD FL 196° 34.2 47

* yellow - uhf WHDT-DT 59.1 IND STUART FL 6° 17.6 59

* yellow - uhf WXEL-DT 42.1 PBS WEST PALM BEACH FL 312° 12.1 27

* yellow - vhf WPEC-DT 12.1 CBS WEST PALM BEACH FL 322° 11.0 13

* yellow - uhf WPXP-DT 67.1 i LAKE WORTH FL 322° 11.0 36

* yellow - uhf WPTV-DT 5.1 NBC WEST PALM BEACH FL 321° 11.2 55

* yellow - uhf WFGC-DT 49 CTN PALM BEACH FL FCC Ext 322° 11.0 49

* yellow - uhf WFLX-DT 29.1 FOX WEST PALM BEACH FL 312° 12.1 28

* green - uhf WTCE-DT 38.1 TBN FORT PIERCE FL 356° 38.7 38

* red - uhf WTVX-DT 34.1 UPN FORT PIERCE FL 342° 48.7 50

* red - uhf WPBF-DT 25.1 ABC WEST PALM BEACH FL 342° 48.7 16

* red - uhf WPXM-DT 35.1 i MIAMI FL 196° 34.2 26


All I really care about is the 4 major networks which are channels 5.1, 12.1, 29.1, and 25.1.


Thanks!


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> > Although the DB-8 and PR8800 8-Bays should also work, the CM4228 8-Bay would be
> 
> > a better choice since it may have enough gain in the VHF band to pick up CH2
> 
> 
> CH2 ? Looks like the actual digital frequency is channel 3.
> 
> 
> The Kerry Cozad chart shows the PR-8800 as having more gain at channels
> 
> 2 and 3 than your beloved CM-4228. It also has less weight and less
> 
> wind loading, and likely less problems with rust/corrosion.
> 
> 
> The Cozad chart doesn't have the DB-8, but they tend to be about twice as expensive,
> 
> so even if it has slightly better gain you could get 2 PR-8800 (or CM-4228)
> 
> and set up a 16 bay for the same money. Or add a seperate VHF antenna.



I fixed the CH2 "typo" the same day I posted it...I see corrected CH3 now...


Since not much of antenna should work for CH3 at short range, I would be more concerned about whether the chosen antenna would need to be replaced in a couple years when Chicago's WLS-DT goes to CH7 and CH3 may/probably moves to CH11.


----------



## SEMIJim

I'm about 14 miles from the cluster of towers that originate most of the analog and digital broadcasts in my area. Everything on VHF and UHF analog is pretty good, other than channel 62. The stronger DTV stations are good, but two channels are frequently so-frequently disrupted as to make them unusable. So I'm thinking of starting with a roof antenna upgrade. Here's my short list:


Channel Master 3016

Winegard HD7078P

Winegard PR-5646

Winegard PR-7010


Anybody have any opinion on the over-all quality, construction and performance of Channel Master vs. Winegard?


This http://www.rochesterhdtv.com/viewtop...243&highlight= kind of concerned me.


Thanks!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SEMIJim* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anybody have any opinion on the over-all quality, construction and performance of Channel Master vs. Winegard?



I like the Winegards a little better for build quality, and their "HD" lineup has better UHF performance than the Channel Masters, but I'm sure you'll get the opposite viewpoint from somebody else.


----------



## bobby515

i had a reception problem with local cable tvs

bob


----------



## SEMIJim




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I like the Winegards a little better for build quality, and their "HD" lineup has better UHF performance than the Channel Masters,



Yes, here's the same list, with the average VHF low, VHF high and UHF gains, as well as boom length and max. width:

Code:


Code:


Channel Master 3016 - 1.2/7.9/7.7db,  66 x 84

Winegard HD7078P    - 2.8/9.0/10.6db, 65 x 110

Winegard PR-5646    - 2.9/7.4/8.9db,  67 x 104

Winegard PR-7010    - 2.6/6.8/7.9db,  67 x 111

The HD7078P looks the best, but its maximum width is 3' wider than the CM!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> but I'm sure you'll get the opposite viewpoint from somebody else.



We shall see


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SEMIJim* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm about 14 miles from the cluster of towers that originate most of the analog and digital broadcasts in my area. Everything on VHF and UHF analog is pretty good, other than channel 62.



just wait until 2009 when 62 is gone







Then it hopefully will be easier to get in


----------



## acrolect

Good afternoon; i'm looking at a PR-8800 for the following channels. I'm only interested in the major networks; we are literally right on the Mason Dixon line and I prefer the Pennsylvania channels (blue) 8.1, 21.1, 27.1 and 43.1; will the PR-8800 work ? Thank you



* blue - uhf WGAL-DT 8.1 NBC LANCASTER, PA 54° 30.4 58

* blue - uhf WLYH-DT 15.1 UPN LANCASTER, PA 48° 47.7 23

* blue - vhf WHP-DT 21.1 CBS HARRISBURG, PA 21° 44.1 4

* blue - uhf WPMT-DT 43.1 FOX YORK, PA 56° 30.8 47

* blue - vhf WHTM-DT 27.1 ABC HARRISBURG, PA 15° 41.5 10

* blue - uhf WGCB-DT 30.1 IND RED LION, PA 71° 26.4 30

* violet - uhf WITF-DT 33.3 PBS HARRISBURG PA 21° 44.1 36


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *acrolect* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Good afternoon; i'm looking at a Silver Sensor or a PR-8800 for the following channels.



To get ABC and CBS from PA, you'll need a VHF/UHF antenna, and neither of the ones you've selected are going to work.


----------



## SEMIJim

Called a local store that carries Channel Master and Winegard this afternoon. Guy there suggested either the Channel Master 3679 or the Winegard HD7082P. Well, the Winegard HD7078P that was already on my short list has better UHF and hi-VHF gain figures than the CM3679, and is about half the boom length. Given that the stations I want are mostly solid, save two, I suspect the HD7082P is over-kill. Besides, the guy thought I was a _lot_ further away from the tower cluster than antennaweb and a city-to-city distance calculator says I am. So I think I'm gonna go with the Winegard HD7078P.


----------



## SEMIJim

Well, this ain't lookin' good. The only local Winegard dealer I've found so far that sells to the public doesn't stock the HD7078P and his prices are pretty steep on the bigger Winegard antennas. Can anybody recommend an Internet dealer? Perhaps one that supports AVSForum?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SEMIJim* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can anybody recommend an Internet dealer? Perhaps one that supports AVSForum?



I've had good luck with Stark Electronic and Warren Electronics.


----------



## SEMIJim




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've had good luck with Stark Electronic and Warren Electronics.



Thanks. This Stark Electronics and this Warren Electronics ?


Either one an AVSForum supporter?


----------



## Konrad2

> Given that the stations I want are mostly solid, save two,

> I suspect the HD7082P is over-kill.


Unless you are trying to pull in signals from different

directions and thus want a wide beamwidth, I'd suggest going

with the tightest beam pattern you can find, especially

in the vertical direction. This will, in general,

correspond to higher gain. You may not need the additional

signal strength, but a tighter beam pattern means less

chance for multipath and interferrence.


> The only local Winegard dealer I've found so far that sells

> to the public doesn't stock the HD7078P and his prices are

> pretty steep on the bigger Winegard antennas. Can anybody

> recommend an Internet dealer?


solidsignal.com had the best prices I could find on the

Winegards I wanted (PR-8800 UHF and YA-1713 VHF-HI).

Be sure to include shipping charges when comparing prices

to your local dealer. The Winegards are mostly aluminum

and thus very light, but there must be a special shipping

charge for long boxes.


The VHF reception of the PR-8800 is better than I expected,

I probably could have gotten by without the YA-1713. Oh well.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SEMIJim* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, this ain't lookin' good. The only local Winegard dealer I've found so far that sells to the public doesn't stock the HD7078P and his prices are pretty steep on the bigger Winegard antennas. Can anybody recommend an Internet dealer? Perhaps one that supports AVSForum?



Be sure to CALL re shipping, incl. oversize charges....


From Ft Wayne, IN: http://www.summitsource.com/ 

From Livonia, MI: http://www.solidsignal.com/ 

From San Diego, CA: http://shop.willyselectronics.com/


----------



## SEMIJim

Only Warren and Summit have the HD7078P. Anybody know if either or both of them are AVSForum advertisers/supporters? I guess I'll call and order from one of them tomorrow.


Thanks for all the feedback, folks!


P.S.: holl_ands: Yeah, I'll keep an eye on the shipping charges. Thanks!


----------



## Konrad2

> I doubt that it is even physically possible to construct a 10Hz wide filter

> with its center frequency in the RF broadcast band.


If I'm reading the numbers right, old "boatanchor" $$$$$ SAs can do 30 Hz.

Maybe the newer models can do 10?


> I use a 100Khz bandwidth filter resolution


> a grade of resolution a little finer than 100 Khz would be helpful but not essential


Well, if 100 Khz is good enough, there is:

www.aaronia.de 


The HF-4040 model has:

10 MHz - 4 GHz

100 kHz resolution

Accuracy base unit (typical) +/-3dB [ sounds kinda lame? ]


price: 499,95 Euro


This thing clearly isn't going to do what a serious "boatanchor" $$$$$ SA can

do, but it is cheaper and portable.


I have a couple of concerns with this unit. Is it good enough to squeak

by for things like evaluating the quality of reception, and for seek and

destroy missions against interference? Or does it need better specs?

And I suspect that some essential functionality is only available via a

binary that requires wintel. If so, that makes it useless for me.


----------



## jrnoel

I'm new. I am having dish netork installed next sun. 7-23. I am getting the hd package. I also am getting the local channels, but they are not availible in hd. I live in slidell, about 30 miles outside of new orleans. I ordered a channel master 4228 and it will be here wed. I was planning to put have the satilite installer install it in my attic. If it does not pick up the locals clearly in hd, how hard is it to install the pre amp cm 7777. Should i go ahead and order it now so that the satilite installer can install it also. I was wanting to wait to see how the antenna worked alone before buying the amp. Also, any thoughts on dish network. Ive never had satitile and was wondering if you really loose signals in rain and how good the picture quality is. I currently have charter.


----------



## Konrad2

> how hard is it to install the pre amp


With a 4228 and only 30 miles away, you probably don't need a

preamp, unless your attic walls/roof is metal or dense material

like concrete/brick/stone.


If you do need a preamp, adding one is trivial.


Set any switches as needed (e.g. FM trap). My reception is a

lot better with the FM band trapped out, your mileage may vary.


Unscrew coax "F" connector from antenna balun.


Screw into output of preamp instead.


Connect a short length of coax from the antenna balun

to the preamp input. (RG6 quad shield recommended,

Lowes has this with waterproof weatherproof connections)


In a similar manner, add the power supply "downstream"

of the preamp.


If you have AC power in your attic you can put the power supply

up there. Otherwise put it downstairs.


One thing you need to watch out for is that some devices

like splitters may not pass the DC power up to the preamp.

If your splitters say "power pass" or something similar you

should be okay. Otherwise, you need to put the power supply

on the preamp side of any device that doesn't pass DC. Or

you can replace the device with one that does pass DC, if

possible.


If you get a model of preamp with 300 Ohm inputs instead

of the 75 Ohm coax input, you would remove the balun,

and connect the antenna to the preamp with a short length

of twinlead instead of using coax.


----------



## jrnoel

thanks for your help


----------



## Dan Kolton

I've posted before about my problems with wind when there are leaves on the trees. I've finally purchased a CM4221 and installed it in the attic as several have recommended. I find the only difference compared to using either a Silver Sensor or a "rabbit ears" loop on top of the TV is that there is a slightly higher signal strength or quality indicated on my LG3410a meter. The picture is no less prone to going away when the wind blows (even at very low speed). The meter reading drops from between the two "O"s in "GOOD" to the "B" in "BAD". I'm sure someone will recommend that I move the 4221 outside, but that's a lot of work, and I fail to see how this will improve the situation when I almost can't see any clear sky through the trees, and signal strength seems not to be any problem whatsoever when the weather is calm. Does anyone have another suggestion?


----------



## JasonATL




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dan Kolton* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've posted before about my problems with wind when there are leaves on the trees. I've finally purchased a CM4221 and installed it in the attic as several have recommended. I find the only difference compared to using either a Silver Sensor or a "rabbit ears" loop on top of the TV is that there is a slightly higher signal strength or quality indicated on my LG3410a meter. The picture is no less prone to going away when the wind blows (even at very low speed). The meter reading drops from between the two "O"s in "GOOD" to the "B" in "BAD". I'm sure someone will recommend that I move the 4221 outside, but that's a lot of work, and I fail to see how this will improve the situation when I almost can't see any clear sky through the trees, and signal strength seems not to be any problem whatsoever when the weather is calm. Does anyone have another suggestion?



You could try a good pre-amp. By "good," I mean, for example, a Channel Master CM 7777 Titan2. The trouble is, you have a multipath problem that may or may not go away if you clean up the signal. Don't bother with a signal amplifier.


Going outside is definitely changing the situation and very likely to improve it. On a windy day, just take the antenna outside (not on the roof) and try it. See if you have the same problem. The higher you go, the better to get a clearer view of the antennas.


Do you have more height in your attic? In my old attic installation, it mattered WHERE within the attic it was, include height.


----------



## Konrad2

> I'm sure someone will recommend that I move the 4221 outside, but that's

> a lot of work, and I fail to see how this will improve the situation when

> I almost can't see any clear sky through the trees, and signal strength

> seems not to be any problem whatsoever when the weather is calm.


I've read that the antenna needs to be about 10 feet above the trees.

If the trees are very tall that might be impractical.


Have you tried aiming your antenna up above the trees? If you can get

enough signal that way, it might be less affected by the wind.


From http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archi...81623-p-8.html 


>} Generally speaking, leaves will attenuate signals, especially UHF,

>} and if they are being blown by the wind, this attenuation is usually

>} too variable for the automatic gain control module in your tuner to

>} compensate for.


Do you know what tuner (RF front end) and demodulator your LG3410a has?

A unit with a different RF front end and/or different demodulator

might have better luck. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any tests of the

AGC in the test reports I've read.


Has anyone seen tests of AGC performance?


Speaking of tests, has anyone seen any tests of the Thomson DTT7611

and/or the Zoran/Oren OR51132 ?


I also have a problem with variable reception quality, and wind in the trees

was a prime suspect. But the thing that has helped the most is trapping out

the FM band. I'd like to try filtering out the other non-TV frequencies,

but I haven't found a source of filters with the right frequencies for OTA.


----------



## wilchrist

hello


i have and old 1050's style antenna on my rooftop that ive never used. recently i hooked it up to an atcs tuner in a 32d46. my main question is if anyone has ever seen this adapter that the main line is connected to. i can pick up one digital channel (not well at all). maybe the ancient adapter im using is the problem. im not sure how to describe it. there old style coaxial running into the house, then there is a white box with serated tension screws that the outside of the line is tightened into until wire is met. then there are uhf/vhf wires coming out of the box, then another adapter for rf coax coversion. its pretty old, guess my main question is do they still make them, or maybe something better?



thanks

wil


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dan Kolton* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm sure someone will recommend that I move the 4221 outside, but that's a lot of work, and I fail to see how this will improve the situation when I almost can't see any clear sky through the trees, and signal strength seems not to be any problem whatsoever when the weather is calm.



Let's say that the signal you're getting right now, on a calm day, is good enough for reception by 10dBmv. Now, if the trees blow and block the path, let's say they reduce the signal by 20dBmv. And let's say that the attic roof materials are blocking 50dBmv. (All of these are hypothetical numbers - it doesn't matter what they really are to get the gist of the point.) Now if you move your antenna outdoors, you're getting 60dBmv on a good day, but on a windy day the signal only drops to 40dBmv above your necessary level, meaning reception stays solid. That's how moving your antenna outdoors could help.


On windy days, does the signal meter jump around a lot, or does it just drop down into the Bad range and stay there?


----------



## Konrad2

>> The meter reading drops from between the two "O"s in "GOOD" to the "B" in "BAD".


Do we know if the LG3410a meter is signal strength, or signal quality?

I suspect it is signal quality.


I believe the theory is not that the wind reduces the signal strength,

but that it makes the signal strength change rapidly, and the AGC is

not fast enough to smooth it out.


If so, adding an amplifier seems unlikely to help. Moving the antenna

outside might help, especially if it is higher. But I wouldn't count

on it helping enough, unless you get the antenna above the trees.


Tuners have a wide range of acceptable static signal strength, thanks to

the AGC. A lab test of the "5th gen Zenith" (presumably the LG3303 chip)

found a range of 76.1 dB.


You can test how much static signal strength margin you have by adding

attenuators on a good (no wind) day.


> Now, if the trees blow and block the path


The wind could just as easily blow trees *out* of the path.

Has anyone ever heard of wind in the trees *helping* reception?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wilchrist* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> hello
> 
> 
> i have and old 1050's style antenna on my rooftop that ive never used. recently i hooked it up to an atcs tuner in a 32d46. my main question is if anyone has ever seen this adapter that the main line is connected to. i can pick up one digital channel (not well at all). maybe the ancient adapter im using is the problem. im not sure how to describe it. there old style coaxial running into the house, then there is a white box with serated tension screws that the outside of the line is tightened into until wire is met. then there are uhf/vhf wires coming out of the box, then another adapter for rf coax conversion. its pretty old, guess my main question is do they still make them, or maybe something better?
> 
> 
> 
> thanks
> 
> wil



An antique antenna system can suffer death by a thousand cuts.

The antenna elements may no longer make good connections.

It sounds like you have problematic "twinlead" (about 1/2-in wide flat wires) from the antenna to an rf coax converter (a "balun" transformer). These will all degrade from moisture getting into micro-fracturers. Old coax can also degrade from moisture leaking in via old corroded connectors. Each and every connection will degrade from corrosion and should be replaced. Do I need to go on???? You know where this is headed....


If the antenna looks serviceable, you can start by replacing everything between the coax and the antenna, making sure you redo the coax connector (cut back as much as possible to replace with new coax). Run coax all the way to the antenna and attach to the antenna using a Balun Transformer, such as the fol:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103912 
http://shop4.outpost.com/product/257...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG 

I prefer the Channel Master Balun after measuring a lower loss.


If you are more than about 10-15 miles from nearest TV station, you might want to consider adding a Preamp between the balun and the coax downlead. The CM7777 and Spartan models are for fringe (greater than 30 miles) whereas the lower gain WG models (AP-4700, AP-8700 and HDP-269) are for suburban use.


Since you didn't say where you were located (zipcode & preferably nearest cross streets), or describe (post a picture?) of your antenna, we can't comment on whether it's suitable or not....


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> >
> 
> If you get a model of preamp with 300 Ohm inputs instead
> 
> of the 75 Ohm coax input, you would remove the balun,
> 
> and connect the antenna to the preamp with a short length
> 
> of twinlead instead of using coax.



Which is better a 300 ohm or 75 ohm??? I have a 300 ohm antenna and wonder which amp to get.

One other question, how important is grounding the antenna and is there a better or worse way to do it, not to loose signal. I ask as i have a brand new media center pc plugged into it and soon a hdtv


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Which is better a 300 ohm or 75 ohm??? I have a 300 ohm antenna and wonder which amp to get.



It probably doesn't make any difference if comparing apples to apples with the same circuitry, except for one Preamp the 1.2 dB loss Balun is internal and for the other external.


Winegard specs are 1.2 dB lower Noise Figure for 75-ohm model, which would be lost in the external balun, making it equal to the 300-ohm model.


CM Spartan specs have same Noise Figure for both 75-ohm and 300-ohm models, but I would guess their "standard" measurement would include an external balun with the 75-ohm model, making them equal.


Just make sure you only use the high gain (CM-7777, Spartan) models well away from TV broadcast towers.


----------



## gjvrieze

Here is my info, so i would assume, i am far away, also i do NOT have line sight and am well below the elevation of the towers. I am mainly interested in dtv stations and not listed here is WKBT-DT which is EAST of me and sregener says i should be able to get it, and i do not so, i want to know what i should do first..

red - uhf K60DS 60 TBN ROCHESTER MN 82° 6.3 60

blue - vhf KAAL 6 ABC AUSTIN MN 229° 44.2 6

blue - uhf KSMQ-DT 15.1 PBS AUSTIN MN 185° 27.2 20

blue - uhf KXLT 47 FOX ROCHESTER MN 185° 27.2 47

blue - vhf KTTC 10 NBC ROCHESTER MN 175° 32.0 10

violet - uhf KTTC-DT 10.1 NBC ROCHESTER MN 185° 27.2 36

violet - uhf WHLA 31 PBS LA CROSSE WI 104° 56.9 31

violet - uhf WXOW 19 ABC LA CROSSE WI 104° 56.9 19

violet - uhf WLAX 25 FOX LA CROSSE WI 104° 56.7 25

violet - uhf KYIN 24 PBS MASON CITY IA 200° 49.2 24

violet - vhf KIMT 3 CBS MASON CITY IA 200° 49.2 3

violet - uhf KSMQ 15 PBS AUSTIN MN 226° 36.4 15

violet - vhf WKBT 8 CBS LA CROSSE WI 84° 56.1 8

so which amp should i go with, right now i have a 190in radio shack style antenna which i am going to put up tonight, i do not know the brand but it looks just like the radio shack 80in that is currently in use.

thanks for info,

Garrett


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here is my info, so i would assume, i am far away, also i do NOT have line sight and am well below the elevation of the towers.



I'm in about the same location and have a 28dB UHF preamp that I use to great effect. I recommend the Winegards simply because they don't overload as quickly as the Channel Masters.


----------



## gjvrieze

Also do you use a 300ohm or 75ohm? I just want to make sure whatever i buy works, i had a radio shack and it killed my signal completely, and i used a new antenna and wires and properly connected.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It probably doesn't make any difference if comparing apples to apples with the same circuitry, except for one Preamp the 1.2 dB loss Balun is internal and for the other external.
> 
> 
> Winegard specs are 1.2 dB lower Noise Figure for 75-ohm model, which would be lost in the external balun, making it equal to the 300-ohm model.
> 
> 
> CM Spartan specs have same Noise Figure for both 75-ohm and 300-ohm models, but I would guess their "standard" measurement would include an external balun with the 75-ohm model, making them equal.



Do they still have internal baluns? I would think that some versions of integrated circuit amplifiers would have inverting and non-inverting inputs that could be configured to develop a natural, 300 ohm load, and so they wouldn't need a high loss balun to match the line and source impedance with the load impedance.


----------



## holl_ands

CM uses internal Baluns on each of the VHF and UHF 300-ohm inputs, as shown in this picture showing the multi-purpose CM Spartan Circuit Board. The circuit board is populated as necessary for the different model numbers.


----------



## PinkSplice




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just make sure you only use the high gain (CM-7777, Spartan) models well away from TV broadcast towers.



Indeed. I'm within 3 miles of the Shrewsbury antenna farm in STL, and I need FM traps on my teeth...


----------



## newsposter

dan i'm curious..how far away are the trees? My installer said i may have problems since he installed in January and no leaves up, but i had a very very difficult 'tunnel' to see thru between my neighbors house and some unknown far off object so had to have it exactly where it was. His tree is about 200 ft away from my house and the DB8 is literally facing right at it. But i have zero problems. I guess the signal is going' around' the tree or something


----------



## Dan Kolton

There is no possible way short of a chain saw to get away from or above the trees. In earlier posts I've described setting the antenna outside at ground level. The bad behavior didn't change at all compared to any other position in the house (including the attic). I understand the building material attenuaton argument, but why then would the signal be the same whether I'm inside or outside or at ground level or in the attic? When calm day signal is almost at the top of the meter, I have trouble believing that going outside would help. At the moment, it's all academic, because it's far too hot for me to crawl up into the attic to move the antenna anywhere.


----------



## newsposter

50ft away...zoinks....I have no experience that close......and the signal could be the same in and out...I had high 80s for some channels with my hdtivo in the attic and still only get about the same outside...however...i got a more stable signal with little fluctuation PLUS a few more stations I didnt get before.


Also horizontal sometimes does matter. I put over ..gosh i forget..maybe 25+ hours into it myself and then paid 400 for someone else to do more to find the perfect signal. Free tv aint cheap


----------



## spainman

Hi, I am in zip code 35242 and need to install an OTA in my attic. I would appreciate any suggestions as to type and whether or not a preamp is advised.



Thanks


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dan Kolton* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I understand the building material attenuaton argument, but why then would the signal be the same whether I'm inside or outside or at ground level or in the attic?



Because your signal meter doesn't measure signal strength but signal quality - in other words, the error ratio of your signal. That can stay the same even with signals 20x stronger (or weaker.) What makes digital reception work isn't the absolute strength of the signal (although there is a minimum and a maximum in which it can work) but the quality of that signal, how clean it is.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *spainman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi, I am in zip code 35242 and need to install an OTA in my attic. I would appreciate any suggestions as to type and whether or not a preamp is advised.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks



You should repost in the ANTENNA thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...51#post8037351


----------



## Brian.Leveille

All,


So I was happy the past few days with my reception.


Until last night.


The t-storms we had last night must have done something to my antenna install. I am no longer receiving about half the stations I was a couple of days ago.


I did a quick visual inspection from the ground, and it looks like the antenna hasn't moved or been broken.


I know that I did not waterproof my connections. Could water be a problem? Could it have seeped into the F connectors somehow and be 'shorting' something out?


Somewhat frustrated,


-BL


----------



## jrnoel

Anyone here use a diplexer? I am having dish network with the hd package hooked up sunday and was going to hook up an ota, for my locals in hd, to the satilite cable with a diplexer. Is there any loss of picture quality for either the satilite or the ota? Is there any difference in different brands of diplexers? Are all diplexers for hd? I didn't want to run a seperate cable from my ota, cm 4228 in the attic, but if it makes a big difference then I may.


----------



## jrnoel

I'm new and have a couple of questions. I am having Dish network hd package installed sunday. 1. If I'm putting an ota in my attic do I need to ground it? 2. If I use a diplexer for the ota and the satilite, do I loose any picture quality. I am only worried about hd channels. Is there any difference in brands of diplexers or certain diplexers for hd channels?


----------



## Dan Kolton

sregener,


Please note: I've posted several times that I've tried both the CM4221 and the Silver Sensor out of doors in several locations, but at ground level. The results were no improvement over any indoor (including attic) location that I've tried. Picture is wonderful with no wind and useless with wind. I will try the 4221 up higher outside when I figure out a reasonable way, but I'll be extremely surprised if this solves the problem.


----------



## milehighmike

I use a diplexer on one of my three E* satellite feeds because I had only only cable in the wall and I can't fish another one due to a plant shelf with open space above it to the ceiling. I have the Dish 1000. I honestly cannot see a difference between the diplexed feed and the other two TV's that I have separate satellite and OTA lines running to. I bought the diplexers at Radio Shack. I think they were about $20 each and you need one at each end. Make sure you get the ones that pass DC for the satellite feed.


----------



## SEMIJim




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Brian.Leveille* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I know that I did not waterproof my connections. Could water be a problem? Could it have seeped into the F connectors somehow and be 'shorting' something out?



Could be. You should always weatherproof electrical connections. Wet electrical connections tend not to work so well. If the weather dries out for a few days and things improve again, odds are that was the problem. If this is the problem, and you fail to address it, those connections will steadily degrade over time. (I just replaced my roof antenna. The F-connector connection to the balun was booted and taped. Upon disassembly I found it as clean, bright and tight as the day I put it together--14 years ago







.)


Could also be that you didn't properly secure the coax, wind whipped it around, and the connections are no longer mechanically sound.


Could also be there was a very close lightning hit and your receiver was damaged.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dan Kolton* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> sregener,
> 
> 
> Please note: I've posted several times that I've tried both the CM4221 and the Silver Sensor out of doors in several locations, but at ground level.



Antenna height is critical - I got nothing at ground level, but a good signal at 22' outdoors. If I had to choose between ground level outdoors, and attic level indoors, I'd always pick attic level.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Antenna height is critical - I got nothing at ground level, but a good signal at 22' outdoors. If I had to choose between ground level outdoors, and attic level indoors, I'd always pick attic level.



Since i have personal experience I need to say higher is not 'always' better. (maybe 99.9%, but not always) The guy installed my DB8 10ft up off the chimney. signal sucked and he had to come back out because my difficult station was still being difficult.


lowered it to a 2 ft tripod about 10 ft down the roof, came in fine every since then. I admit to having a very very difficult setup shooting past a neighbors house and some other unknown object. But just wanted to remind people that nothing is absolute in the antenna world (except if he stands in front of the antenna i get no signal







) and horizontal can pay off too.


----------



## gjvrieze

I may not have near the experience that sregener has, but i know from the past few months, that no two installs are the same, it is always different from home to home... BUt i have also noticed that height is very important...


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> installed my DB8 10ft up off the chimney. signal sucked. lowered it to a 2 ft tripod about 10 ft down the roof, came in fine every since then. I admit to having a very very difficult setup shooting past a neighbors house and some other unknown object.



Yes, finding the signal "hot spot" can do wonders for reception. But, by going lower your installer had to look for a hot spot. If you go higher, above the obstructions, you are more likely to find a good signal with less critical positioning.


So you can't really say lower was better, even in your difficult situation. Lower just happened to work, where higher might have worked as well, or even better. Albeit, there is probably much more expense involved in going higher.


----------



## Dan Kolton

Last night, I was able to get a more stable signal using the Silver Sensor atop my set than using the CM4221 in my attic. There was only a slight breeze; neither antenna gave a reliable picture and I ended up watching analogue (which was also of variable quality, but didn't completely lose either picture or sound).


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> So you can't really say lower was better, even in your difficult situation. Lower just happened to work, where higher might have worked as well, or even better. Albeit, there is probably much more expense involved in going higher.



lower was better than the higher position easily available to me..how's that?


----------



## SEMIJim




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> lower was better than the higher position easily available to me..how's that?



You're comparing apples and oranges: He moved the antenna 10 feet over. For an apples:apples comparison, you'd have to compare the antenna at the different heights in the _same_ locations. Now it may be that lowering the antenna in the original location might not have made things any worse. And it might be that raising the antenna in the new location wouldn't make things any better. But comparing the two heights at different locations proves nothing other than it worked better in the latter location.


----------



## JasonBrown

I have a Zenith Silver Sensor and get around 85-90 signal strength on all my stations in the UHF band. ABC HD is a VHF frequency, in the location as the others (12 miles, due south basically) and I'm not able to get a good signal for that one in my media room (I get signal strength in the 70s in the living room though). Is there a way I can piggyback a pair of rabbit ears to the SilverSensor in an attempt to get the VHF feed?


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JasonBrown* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a Zenith Silver Sensor and get around 85-90 signal strength on all my stations in the UHF band. ABC HD is a VHF frequency, in the location as the others (12 miles, due south basically) and I'm not able to get a good signal for that one in my media room (I get signal strength in the 70s in the living room though). Is there a way I can piggyback a pair of rabbit ears to the SilverSensor in an attempt to get the VHF feed?



You could join the two together using something like this.....
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm Use the 0549 if you are not using a preamp, and use the 0538 if you are using a preamp on the line.


Steve


----------



## jtbell

You need a "joiner", like one of the ones on the page linked below. Your setup is indoors, so the CM 7207 looks like a good match. You can probably find something similar at Radio Shack, but I can't find anything quickly in their online catalog.

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SEMIJim* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You're comparing apples and oranges: He moved the antenna 10 feet over. For an apples:apples comparison, you'd have to compare the antenna at the different heights in the _same_ locations. Now it may be that lowering the antenna in the original location might not have made things any worse. And it might be that raising the antenna in the new location wouldn't make things any better. But comparing the two heights at different locations proves nothing other than it worked better in the latter location.



didnt you just prove my point that higher is not always necessarily better ?







Each location must be evaluated individually.


----------



## iLLWiLL

I am within 20 miles of all transmitters (UHF), which are all pointing in the same direction.


I bought *this RCA antenna* from Best Buy. But I have issues such as the signal breaking up occasionally. On most stations, I'll fluctuate from about 88% to 100%. But sometimes I will spike down to 0% (which obviously is causing the signal to break up).


Is there a better [indoor] antenna out there that I can buy? At a reasonable price? I've seen some people in this forum say they maintain a 100% signal.(







)



Any suggestions? Thanks!


----------



## rgoodwin

This is why I never throw anything away







I just got into OTA HDTV and needed a "balun" and had no clue what it was....


Thanks to Google I found a picture and sure enough I had not one but two in my junk drawer including a 2100B that I have NO clue the source of.


Anyway, thought it was amusing and it's so quick to reply...












> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR's post, he provided link to my comparison test:
> http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/2489.html
> 
> Note that the maximum loss value for the CM balun was much less than any of the other outdoor baluns.
> 
> 
> Of the baluns at hand for testing, the one with the lowest loss was actually the RMS CA-2100B, intended for indoor use.
> 
> Feel free to post any comparison results of your own....there isn't much to be found on this subject.
> 
> 
> FYI: Here are results posted in hdtvprimer for CM0090 and two R-S balun models
> 
> and the (extremely high loss) found in the KYES test for a back-to-back Philmore/Pfantone combination:
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html
> http://www.kyes.com/antenna/balun.html


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *iLLWiLL* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is there a better [indoor] antenna out there that I can buy?



Zenith Silver Sensor or Terk HDTVi.


----------



## ST RICH

Should I replace my current RG-59 cable with the new Quad Shield RG-6 cable?


My situation -> I have an attic configuration. I have two 12 feet RG-59 cables from a CM 4228 and a CM 4221 combine with a splitter in reverse into a Channel Master in line amplifier splitter. I have 4 lines (RG-59 - 50 feet) coming out of the splitter into my HDTVs and DVRs. There are two digital stations that I can not lock onto.


Will I get enhanced picture quality or will I be able to lock onto the stations (by reducing the line loss) with the new cables? Any opinions will be accepted. Thanks in advance...


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *iLLWiLL* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've seen some people in this forum say they maintain a 100% signal.(
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> 
> 
> Any suggestions? Thanks!



I can't help you choose one but will tell you, 100% isn't that important. my most difficult station only has about 65- 75 but it's rock solid. Stability is more important that a high meter reading.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ST RICH* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My situation -> I have an attic configuration. I have two 12 feet RG-59 cables from a CM 4228 and a CM 4221 combine with a splitter in reverse into a Channel Master in line amplifier splitter. I have 4 lines (RG-59 - 50 feet) coming out of the splitter into my HDTVs and DVRs. There are two digital stations that I can not lock onto.
> 
> 
> Will I get enhanced picture quality or will I be able to lock onto the stations (by reducing the line loss) with the new cables? Any opinions will be accepted. Thanks in advance...



I'm assuming that your two antennas are pointed in different directions. Even if they aren't, the odds are against you having the antennas in phase. What that means is that you're creating multipath with the second antenna. This is probably why you're not able to lock onto two stations. It has nothing to do with your cables.


Picture quality is not enhanced for digital reception - either you get a perfect, breakup-free picture, or you don't. There really isn't much in between.


If you did decide to replace cables, double-shielded is all you'd really need.


----------



## ST RICH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm assuming that your two antennas are pointed in different directions. If you did decide to replace cables, double-shielded is all you'd really need.



Thanks for the response. You are correct about the antennas are in direct directions. One is point east towards Baton Rouge to pick up the NBC station (I do not have a local NBC station). The FOX and ABC local stations are picked up by the same antenna. I can not pick up the local PBS and CBS stations without the extra antenna. The second antenna is pointed northwest. If I remove the second antenna and the splitter, I pick up the two stations in questioned (FOX and WB) without trouble. I understand that I loss about 3.5 db due to the splitter. I was wondering if I could gain it back with a better cable, but I do not want to waste money if the cables will not gain the 3.5 db loss back. Thanks again...


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ST RICH* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I remove the second antenna and the splitter, I pick up the two stations in questioned (FOX and WB) without trouble. I understand that I loss about 3.5 db due to the splitter. I was wondering if I could gain it back with a better cable, but I do not want to waste money if the cables will not gain the 3.5 db loss back.



You're using the splitter in reverse, so there isn't 3.5dB of loss - more like 0.5dB of loss. And loss isn't your problem - multipath is, multipath you are creating by using two antennas pointed in two different directions that are both picking up signals on the same frequency. You would do better to invest in a remote A/B switch to switch between the two antennas instead of the splitter, or look into filtering if you absolutely must get all the channels at once.


----------



## SEMIJim




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *iLLWiLL* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am within 20 miles of all transmitters (UHF), which are all pointing in the same direction.



One imagines you mean they're all on roughly the same bearing from your location







.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *iLLWiLL* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've seen some people in this forum say they maintain a 100% signal.(
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )



Yeah, and if they're doing it with an indoor antenna, they're certainly not 20 miles away from the broadcast towers. The signal strength (the real signal strength, not some randomly-based number a TV or radio comes up displays on its meter) of a radio wave decreases with the square of the distance. E.g.: If you're 2 miles further away than somebody else, you see 1/4 the power they do.


----------



## Kolchak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ST RICH* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the response. You are correct about the antennas are in direct directions. One is point east towards Baton Rouge to pick up the NBC station (I do not have a local NBC station). The FOX and ABC local stations are picked up by the same antenna. I can not pick up the local PBS and CBS stations without the extra antenna. The second antenna is pointed northwest. If I remove the second antenna and the splitter, I pick up the two stations in questioned (FOX and WB) without trouble. I understand that I loss about 3.5 db due to the splitter. I was wondering if I could gain it back with a better cable, but I do not want to waste money if the cables will not gain the 3.5 db loss back. Thanks again...




As sregener stated, the problem is multipath. In the past I have vertically stacked two CM4221 in opposing directions with success. As the lowest channel to be received was a high frequency, the vertical spacing was only 9 inches. Just a quick test, use the half wavelength for vertical spacing or full for horizontal of your lowest channel to receive. Slim possibility this may reduce your multipath as your stack may be to close together.


----------



## GLW65

I am having problems with digital off air tv reception and need some advise about what to do next. I live in Ohio east of Columbus. TV towers for digital channels 13 (ABC), 14 (NBC),21 (CBS),38 (PBS), 36 (Fox), and 53 (UPN) are all about 32 miles away. My biggest problem is that I am located behind a hill and trees. This winter I was able to pull in all but Ch14. Now with leaves on trees, etc. I am able to get some channels one night and not the next. I have tried a variety of things to try to get reception including moving the antenna vertically on the mast. I have a CM3021 4 bow tie antenna. Actually, I have 2 of them and have tried a various times to make a CM4228 by joining them horizontially. I can get various combinations of reception. Tonight, I am getting Ch 13 with as strong a signal as I ever get (about 70 on my H10-250 Directv receiver). I also get 53 strong. I can't get the signal on 14 to lock in and I can't get 36 to lock in. This is particularly strange since I believe that 36 and 13 broadcast from the same antenna location. I have a CM rotor and a CM7777 amplifier. Rotating the antenna does not get the channels. I am thinking about buying either a CM4228 or a yagi. My signal often jumps from 20 to 60 but won't lock in a digital signal. Does anyone have any ideas?


----------



## jrnoel

I am receiving my locals with my ota. The signal strength on most channels is 70-80%. What is a good, (cheap) preamp or signal booster that would help my reception. My antenna is a cm 4228 that is in my attic.


----------



## Kolchak

"Actually, I have 2 of them and have tried a various times to make a CM4228 by joining them horizontially."


Many will advise the CM4228 when obstructed by an obstacle such as a hill (increased directivity and gain). However, two of the CM4221 are easier to maneuver especially in attics where the opening often does not accommodate the larger one. ST RICH's situation is more complicated as the towers are in opposite directions. Stacking two together in the same direction yields improved gain and directivity. If attic install try vertical stacking (if space permits) and outside try horizontal. Ensure both pieces of coax are the same length to combiner to keep in phase. I am surprised how well ABC is received. Usually, one 4221 does not pick up a 213MHz signal like the 4228 with its continuous screen adding vhf gain. Also, unsure why NBC is problematic. Unless I'm mistaken, channel 14 is at full 1000kW power. Your receiver may be overloaded. The CM7777 boosts at least 26dB IIRC. Try attenuating the signal by at least 10dB.


----------



## SEMIJim

Somebody here recommended this: Winegard HDP-269 pre-amp 


Why do you think you need it? Are (some of) your stations not solid?


70-80% signal strength means absolutely nothing. What's 70-80% for you could be 60-70% for somebody else and 90-95% for another person. So-called "signal strength" meters are no more than a relative measure of signal strength for a given receiver model.


Btw: "Good" and "cheap" are more often than not mutually exclusive.


----------



## GLW65

I have tried stacking the 3021 antennas both vertically and horizontally. The problem is that I get one set of channels one day and a different set the next. A couple of days ago I could not pick up Ch13 at all, but was getting 14,21 and 36 fine. I have tried joining the annenas horizontally both with wood connectors to hold them together and with metal ones. This seems to make a difference, but nothing has solved the problem yet. Without the CM7777 in place, I get very little signal and nothing will lock in.


----------



## jrnoel

I will lose my signal for a few seconds sometimes. A every so often the picture will get pixely. Would the preamp help this?


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SEMIJim* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> SSo-called "signal strength" meters are no more than a relative measure of signal strength for a given receiver model.



They don't even measure signal strength as such. They're actually a measure of signal quality, perhaps obtained from error-correction rates in the decoding process. Insert a variable attenuator in the antenna cable. As you turn the knob and increase the attenuation (reducing the signal strength), the reading on the meter will probably stay more or less constant for a while, then start to drop rapidly. Pretty soon thereafter the picture will pixelate (macroblocking) and then disappear completely. That's what happens with my setup.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GLW65* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My biggest problem is that I am located behind a hill and trees.



Looks like this IS your problem. Changing antennas and pre-amps is not likely to make much difference. You probably are not getting any direct signal, only defraction or reflections that spill over the hill. Thus, the inconsistent reception.


It may be that the only way to get a solid, consistent signal, is to get the antenna high enough to get a direct signal. How high would you have to go to clear the hill and trees?


I'm in a similar situation where it would take about a 100ft tower to get my CM4228 above a hill and trees. So far, I have not been willing to go to that expense to see if it would make much difference.


Another thing you could try is aiming the antenna in what might seem to be the wrong direction. If you are getting a signal coming around the hill that is stronger than what is spilling over it, you could be having multi-path issues. Experiment with aim over 180 degrees or so, and see if you can locate the direction of your best signal.


----------



## GLW65

Thanks guys. I am trying one last thing. I have mounted the 2 3021's on the same mast vertically. They are currently about 8 feet apart. I have some different signal strengths than I had before. I have to leave now, but on my return I will move the lower antenna up and down on the mast and see if I can get a good combination. I believe that multipath may be my primary problem as I sometimes have the signal strength jump to 70 for a second or two and then drop back down. If I have to go to a new antenna which do you think would be better, a yagi or the 4228 of something else? I would have to go way up to get higher. I currently have the top antenna about 40 feet, but would need another 60 or 80 to see over the hill.


----------



## AntAltMike

When you are behind a hill, the signal that bends over the hill is no longer in the horizontal plane, so as long as your mast is perfectly vertical, the signals will be hitting the upper elements on your multi-bay bowtie element stacks before they hit the lower ones, and therefore they wil not be completely in phase with one another.


You might do better with just a 4-bay bowtie tilted back just a little, or with a big sucker Yagi with a corner reflector, like a Winegard PR-9032. If you get an improvement with a 9032, then you might buy a second one and horizontally stack it.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GLW65* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am having problems with digital off air tv reception and need some advise about what to do next. I live in Ohio east of Columbus. TV towers for digital channels 13 (ABC), 14 (NBC),21 (CBS),38 (PBS), 36 (Fox), and 53 (UPN) are all about 32 miles away. My biggest problem is that I am located behind a hill and trees. This winter I was able to pull in all but Ch14. Now with leaves on trees, etc. I am able to get some channels one night and not the next. I have tried a variety of things to try to get reception including moving the antenna vertically on the mast. I have a CM3021 4 bow tie antenna. Actually, I have 2 of them and have tried a various times to make a CM4228 by joining them horizontially. I can get various combinations of reception. Tonight, I am getting Ch 13 with as strong a signal as I ever get (about 70 on my H10-250 Directv receiver). I also get 53 strong. I can't get the signal on 14 to lock in and I can't get 36 to lock in. This is particularly strange since I believe that 36 and 13 broadcast from the same antenna location. I have a CM rotor and a CM7777 amplifier. Rotating the antenna does not get the channels. I am thinking about buying either a CM4228 or a yagi. My signal often jumps from 20 to 60 but won't lock in a digital signal. Does anyone have any ideas?



You need to post your location (zipcode and preferably nearest cross streets) and even better if you could cut and paste the antennaweb.org results for your location.


You should determine how close other (e.g. WSFJ, WSFJ-DT and low power) stations are to your location in order to determine whether you are far enough away (with perhaps additional terrain/tree blockage?) to use the high-gain CM7777 Preamp--or whether a low gain Winegard model is more suitable to minimize desensitization.


----------



## Kolchak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you get an improvement with a 9032, then you might buy a second one and horizontally stack it.



Two questions on the 9032. First, I've used the 9085 but never had luck with any hi vhf. Any luck for GLW65 on Ch13 with this one? Second, would he use the full wavelength of roughly 2 feet (using Ch 14 as the lowest to receive) on horizontal spacing, or do you recommend a longer distance?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You're using the splitter in reverse, so there isn't 3.5dB of loss - more like 0.5dB of loss. And loss isn't your problem - multipath is, multipath you are creating by using two antennas pointed in two different directions that are both picking up signals on the same frequency. You would do better to invest in a remote A/B switch to switch between the two antennas instead of the splitter, or look into filtering if you absolutely must get all the channels at once.



An RF Splitter used in reverse can COMBINE the signals from two antennas.

Inside is an RF Hybrid Transformer, which uses a 1:2 transformer to split each input, with half of the signal energy dumped to an internal "unbalanced load" resistor (one of these is connected out of phase to the other):
http://www.macom.com/Application%20Notes/pdf/m560.pdf 
http://www.macom.com/Application%20Notes/pdf/m561.pdf 
http://www.macom.com/Application%20Notes/pdf/m568.pdf 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...id#post5774611 


With half the energy from each input dumped to the internal load resistor, the insertion loss is about 3.5 dB, EXCEPT when the signals from the two antennas are EQUAL AMPLITUDE and IN-PHASE, at which time the loss in the Hybrid Combiner can approach 0.5 dB. Under these "balanced" conditions, the signal energy dumped into the internal load resistor from each of the inputs is equal and exactly out of phase from each other, resulting in no net voltage being applied to the resistor and hence minimal insertion loss.


When you have two MATCHED antennas pointed in the same direction the Hybrid loss can approach 0.5 dB under IDEAL conditions. Of course multipath effects will frequently result in signals with different amplitude and phase, so the actual insertion loss over time will rapidly fluctuate between 0.5 and 3.5 dB.


When you have two antennas pointed in different directions, the Hybrid will always have 3.5 dB insertion loss.


Stripline Combiners, like the $100 Lindsay, will always have an insertion loss under 0.2 dB, irrespective of antenna configuration:
http://www.lindsayelec.com/antenna/c...combiners.html 


Of course, the above INSERTION LOSSES are IN ADDITION to whatever constructive and destructive cycles may be caused by summing the mis-matched phase and amplitude of the two antenna input signals....we usually call this MULTIPATH....


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Kolchak* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Two questions on the 9032. First, I've used the 9085 but never had luck with any hi vhf. Any luck for GLW65 on Ch13 with this one? Second, would he use the full wavelength of roughly 2 feet (using Ch 14 as the lowest to receive) on horizontal spacing, or do you recommend a longer distance?



The PR-9032 will perform similarly to the HD or CA-9085. I've never used a UHF antenna for channel 13 reception. It can work in good reception situations, but generally will workk poorly in difficult reception situations. You should use a UHF antenna or array to meet your UHF needs, and you can buy a nice channel 7-13 antenna cheap. I haven't checked around lately for residential grade antennas cut narrower than 7-13. If there are any and if they are cheap, a 10-13 antenna might gain a dB or two more than a 7-13 antenna of comparable boom length.


With a horizontal stack, I don't have a fixed spacing preference, since in the few instances when I have used one, I was spacing to phase cancel the single strong multipath signal, so the spacing was dependent on its phasing with respect to the desired signal.


When I stacked vertically, I did in well in the VHF highband with 1/4 wavelength spacing.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When you are behind a hill, the signal that bends over the hill is no longer in the horizontal plane, so as long as your mast is perfectly vertical, the signals will be hitting the upper elements on your multi-bay bowtie element stacks before they hit the lower ones, and therefore they wil not be completely in phase with one another.
> 
> 
> You might do better with just a 4-bay bowtie tilted back just a little, or with a big sucker Yagi with a corner reflector, like a Winegard PR-9032. If you get an improvement with a 9032, then you might buy a second one and horizontally stack it.



Let me see....if the top of my antenna is say 60 feet lower than the crest of my backyard hill, and is about 80 feet away,

then (by Pythagorean Theorem) the distance from the top of my antenna to the crest of the hill is 100 feet.

And the distance from the bottom of my 3-foot high antenna is 101.8 feet [(63^2 + 80^2)^0.5].


A delta of 1.8 feet is a significant difference for CH 69 (wavelength = 1.2 ft) and even for the longest CH14 (wavelength = 2.1 ft).

And moving the bottom of the 3-foot antenna nearly 2 feet closer is more than "just a little" tweak....


Of course, YMMV....


----------



## holl_ands

Quote:

Originally Posted by *ST RICH*
Should I replace my current RG-59 cable with the new Quad Shield RG-6 cable?


My situation -> I have an attic configuration. I have two 12 feet RG-59 cables from a CM 4228 and a CM 4221 combine with a splitter in reverse into a Channel Master in line amplifier splitter. I have 4 lines (RG-59 - 50 feet) coming out of the splitter into my HDTVs and DVRs. There are two digital stations that I can not lock onto.


Will I get enhanced picture quality or will I be able to lock onto the stations (by reducing the line loss) with the new cables? Any opinions will be accepted. Thanks in advance...
Presuming the old cable is not degraded from moisture or physical damage, the difference in loss for 50-feet of RG-59 vs RG-6 could be several dB.


Using info in Belden Cable catalog, I plotted specs for various RG-6 and RG-11 cables over the UHF band (470-806 MHz),

to which I just added the most common (and lowest loss) RG-59 part number.

Note that there can be a wide variation in loss for different cable part numbers, each labeled "RG-6", from just this one high quality manufacturer.

And the Quad Shielded cable did not have the lowest loss....


There was a similiar variation in their RG-59 cable offerings.....

And each manufacturer will be somewhat different....


======================================================

WTMI??? Yes, you could save 2-3+ dB by changing 50-feet of (unknown) RG-59 to high quality RG-6...and another few tenths in the 12-foot sections.

Careful brand name shopping is advised to avoid low quality cable.

At least Google the cable part number to see if the manufacturer even claims a loss spec....


However, cable loss AFTER the Preamp (your CM Distro Amp) is of only minor significance.

The loss of sensitivity (Noise Figure) due to cable loss is REDUCED by the amount of Gain in the Preamp.

I posted some Excel spread sheets for calculating Fade Margins here:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1135634429 

The additional loss in sensitivity due to 10 dB of cable and splitter loss (on the output of the CM Distro Amp) is on the order of only a dB or so versus no loss.


So unless you suspect the cable (try a simple jumper cable first), RG-59 is "good enough" when using a Preamp.


========================================================

You could reduce insertion loss in the antenna combiner from 3.5 to 0.2 dB by using $100 Lindsay Stripline Combiner.


======================================================

Are you sure that there are no nearby (perhaps low power) TV stations that would desensitize the CM Distro Amp???

You should search a range of about 30 miles at www.fccinfo.com or www.2150.com/broadcast (check all four search boxes).


The CM7777 (if no nearby stations), the Winegard 17 dB Gain Preamps or Winegard HDP-269 VHF/UHF Preamp (best for nearby stations) with a 1:4 RF Splitter would probably be 2-3+ dB more sensitive than the CM Distro Amp.


It would help if you could post your zipcode (and preferably nearby cross streets) and perhaps even cut and paste your results from antennaweb.com.

 

RG Cable Loss.zip 3.56640625k . file


----------



## TV Trey




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mdrums* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am having reception problems with NBC and CBS in Tampa. I live in Apollo Beach which is soth of Tampa on the east side of TampaBay. I currently have a round Channel Master antenna on the roof of a 2 story house. I had a Channel Master Stealth on the roof but my installer swaped it out saying the round one is better since I was having problems with CBS HDTV at times. The round one is worse. I can get ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox in HD but a lot of times CBS or NBC will pixilate and or lose the signal. My installer (really just a home theater/alarm guy siad he will put what ever antenna I want on the roof just let him know.
> 
> 
> Any suggestions on a better antenna for my area? I am using a D* HR10-250 and have to stay with D* for the NFL package. The antenna is split to 3 tv's in the house.
> 
> 
> thanks! Mike



Mike, I live in zipcode 33872 and i'm using a Televes 1096 which is a high band only VHF and UHF combination antenna. I receive all the stations from Tampa with the exception of 10. However at the same setting it receives analog 11/ digital 9 out of Ft.Myers. It's an extremely well made antenna and is only about 50" long.

You can check it out at www.televes.com


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GLW65* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have tried stacking the 3021 antennas both vertically and horizontally. The problem is that I get one set of channels one day and a different set the next...





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GLW65* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have mounted the 2 3021's on the same mast vertically. *They are currently about 8 feet apart*. I have some different signal strengths than I had before. ...I will move the lower antenna up and down on the mast and see if I can get a good combination. ... I currently have the top antenna about 40 feet, but would need another 60 or 80 to see over the hill.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When you are behind a hill, the signal that bends over the hill is no longer in the horizontal plane, so as long as your mast is perfectly vertical, the signals will be hitting the upper elements on your multi-bay bowtie element stacks before they hit the lower ones, and therefore they wil not be completely in phase with one another.
> 
> 
> You might do better with just a 4-bay bowtie tilted back just a little, or with a big sucker Yagi with a corner reflector, like a Winegard PR-9032. If you get an improvement with a 9032, then you might buy a second one and horizontally stack it.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...if the top of my antenna is say 60 feet lower than the crest of my backyard hill, and is about 80 feet away, then... the distance from the top of my antenna to the crest of the hill is 100 feet.
> 
> 
> And the distance from the bottom of my 3-foot high antenna is 101.8 feet...
> 
> 
> A delta of 1.8 feet is a significant difference for CH 69 (wavelength = 1.2 ft) and even for the longest CH14 (wavelength = 2.1 ft)....And moving the bottom of the 3-foot antenna nearly 2 feet closer is more than "just a little" tweak....
> 
> 
> Of course, YMMV....




I don't see how you conclude that, "a delta of 1.8 feet is significant for channel 69". If the channel 69 wavelength is 1.2 feet, or 14 inches, then the signal wavefront hitting a lower element just 7 inches further away will be 180 degrees out of phase with the signal wavefront when it hits the upper element, resulting in theoretical total cancellation.


Assuming that, on a 4-bay bowtie, the top element is 24 inches above the bottom one, it will be 180 degrees out of phase at channel 69 if the antenna's vertical axis differs by about 16.3 degrees (ArcTan 7/24) from that of the wave plane. For channel 14, it would be 180 degrees out of phase if the vertical axis was about 30.3 degrees (ArcTan 14/24) off the wave plane.


But GLW65's vertically stacked bowtie span is not 3 feet, it is 8 feet, since he is vertically stacking two 4-bay bowties, which is a recipe for disaster. ArcTan 7"/ 96", for channel 69 is 4.2 degrees. ArcTan 14/96, for channel 14, equals about 8.3 degrees of mast tilt with respect to the propagation front to result in 180 degree phase differential. The likelihood of a hobbiest stumbling onto the most efficient mast plane, or even a decidedly more favorable one, through experimentation at these short wavelengths is not promising, and probably not as likely as winding up with an out-of-phase array that is worse than the performance he would get from any antenna that has a single, active reception element.


----------



## SEMIJim




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jrnoel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I will lose my signal for a few seconds sometimes. A every so often the picture will get pixely. Would the preamp help this?



That depends on the reason for which that's happening. If it's weak signal strength: Yes, a pre-amp _might_ help. If it's due to multipath: No, a pre-amp will probably do nothing for you, and could possibly make things worse.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ............... and you can buy a nice channel 7-13 antenna cheap. I haven't checked around lately for residential grade antennas cut narrower than 7-13. If there are any and if they are cheap, a 10-13 antenna might gain a dB or two more than a 7-13 antenna of comparable boom length.



Here's some info regarding high band VHF antennas and single channel VHF antennas.

http://www.starkelectronic.com/wya6713.htm 
http://www.starkelectronic.com/winp12.htm


----------



## SEMIJim

Problem channels were, and are, channel 62 analog, channel 62 digital (real channel is 44) and channel 56 digital (real channel 43). 62 analog noisy and ghost-y. Channels 56 and 62 digital suffer various degrees of disruption, esp. when the wind blows.


TV stations are all in a cluster, with a 12 degree spread, at an average distance of 14 miles. The problem channels are all on the same tower, at 16.5 miles--the furthest away. The digital ones are only 200KW.


Single-story ranch, 963 feet of elevation (ground level). No tall buildings nearby, but plenty of mature trees.


Want to have 62 analog work well for recording. Want to have the digital channels working well for the obvious reasons







.


Upgraded 15+ year old VHF/UHF antenna to new Winegard HD7078P VHF/UHF antenna. Produced a marked improvement, but channel 56 and 62 digital remained a problem. Pointed it on the bearing to the problem stations. Channel 62 analog improved a bit more, but the digital stations (remember: On the same tower) did not improve further.


Note that both the median bearing for the entire cluster and the bearing for the problem stations each point right through a close cluster of very dense (deciduous) trees.


Seeking further improvement: Moved the antenna up three feet, re-terminated the coax (about 60 feet of Belden 9248 [specs similar to 1694A]) with Paladin compression connectors (had screw-on connectors), drove a new ground rod, bonded it to the electrical system ground rod, grounded the mast with 8 ga. solid copper, added a lightning arrestor (now I'm up to code, at least), removed the APC surge protector, split the signal with an Ideal 1GHz splitter in lieu of going through the VCR to the TV.


Channels 62 and 56 digital got worse! _Much_ worse










On a hunch, re-pointed the antenna through a gap in the near trees, to about 155 degrees, and now 56 and 62 digital are about where they were before I raised the antenna and did my other "improvements"--maybe a _bit_ better. Channel 62 analog, however, is much worse.


Earlier, somebody asserted that more height isn't always better, and then cited his case, where a lower height at a different location did better than the former site at a greater elevation. That was not an apples-to-apples comparison, but this certainly is.


The question now is: Where to go from here, if anywhere? I'm now regretting not having gone with a bigger Winegard HD-series antenna, but I'm loath to basically throw-away the $90 invested in the one I have. Plus: There's no guarantee that going up a couple steps, to the HD7082P, will yield any improvement at all--much less one worth the investment.


Then again: I _suspect_ the problem is _not_ multi-path. I _suspect_ it's purely a case of the the 200KW signals 16.5 miles away being marginal. I _suspect_ that when the wind blows the trees around, the signal is intermittently weakened further and _that's_ the cause of my troubles with these two stations. I _suspect_ that when I raised the antenna three feet, things got worse with those two stations because it was then pointing though denser foliage. But I have no way of knowing these things, as the TV has no "signal strength" or signal quality meter.


Anybody got any ideas on how I might proceed? I'm rather at a loss, at this point.


----------



## GLW65

I got a chance to work some more on the antenna. I first attached one of the CM3021's to the top of the mast. The second I positioned 2 feet below the first pointing the same direction. This resulted in low signal. I then moved the lower antenna to just below the top antenna. This produces good signal (60+) on all channels except one. If I move the whole assembly vertically I can get a spot which gets all channels except 13. If I move to another spot I get all channels (including 13) but I lose 14. I cannot find a vertical placement which yields both CH13 and Ch14 reception. In either spot I get 21, 36 and 46 well. I am now at a loss as to what to do next.


----------



## Neil L

GLW65,

Have you tried using just one antenna? Sorry, I don't remember and I'm too lazy to go back and read your previous posts. I've found that, most of the time, I get better reception with a single antenna than with a stack. I know stacking works well, sometimes, for multi-path rejection, but it is very difficult to get it right.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GLW65* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I move the whole assembly vertically I can get a spot which gets all channels except 13. If I move to another spot I get all channels (including 13) but I lose 14. I cannot find a vertical placement which yields both CH13 and Ch14 reception. In either spot I get 21, 36 and 46 well. I am now at a loss as to what to do next.



Do you understand the difference between channels 13 and 14? They are not contiguous channels. Channel 13 is a channel band from 210Mhz to 216Mhz. Channel 14 is 470Mhz to 476Mhz. Channel 14 is about 43 channels above channel 13. They are not optimally received by the same antennas.


----------



## SEMIJim

Likewise there's a gap between channels 6 & 7, dividing VHF-low from VHF-high, equal to about 14 channels.


----------



## JamesF in NK

Two related questions - both having to do with antenna locations in attics. I have installed a new coax RG6U from my new Plasma on the ground floor up two stories high into the attic.


1. Is there anything I need to do about grounding RE an attic installation of an OTA antenna?


2. The attic is as high as any chimney installation would be (without a lot of extra costs). Coupled with tree limb concerns, an attic installation might be my best (and most maintenance free) installation. However, how much reception does one lose in the attic? In other words, what's lost when a signal tries to penetrate a typical roof (plywood, shingles, etc.)? -- Jim F.


----------



## jrnoel

I have the rg6 running straight from the antenna to the tv digital box. When i install the amp, is it ok to put hte power source near the tv or does it have to be in the attic with the antenna?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JamesF in NK* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1. Is there anything I need to do about grounding RE an attic installation of an OTA antenna?
> 
> 
> 2. The attic is as high as any chimney installation would be (without a lot of extra costs). Coupled with tree limb concerns, an attic installation might be my best (and most maintenance free) installation. However, how much reception does one lose in the attic? In other words, what's lost when a signal tries to penetrate a typical roof (plywood, shingles, etc.)? -- Jim F.



1) You don't need to ground an indoor antenna. Grounding bleeds off static buildup caused by wind passing by the metal elements, something that shouldn't be happening in your attic.


2) Typically, about 86% of the signal is lost. The remaining signal may be sufficient, but the only way to know is to try it. Amplification is not recommended for attic installs, as they almost always make the situation worse rather than better.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jrnoel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have the rg6 running straight from the antenna to the tv digital box. When i install the amp, is it ok to put hte power source near the tv or does it have to be in the attic with the antenna?



Doesn't make any difference where you put the Preamp Power Module, as long as there are no DC Blocking components (e.g. RF Splitters) in between.


----------



## GLW65

I do understand that ch13 is high vhf and ch 14 is uhf and that they are separated by a considerable amount. The truth is, however, that the antenna I am using will pick up Ch13 well at on point on the mast, but not Ch14. If I move the antenna vertically a couple of fee t on the mast, I get Ch14, but loose 13. If the same antenna picks up either channel by itself, doesn't it make sense that it should pick them both up if I can find the right position.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JamesF in NK* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Two related questions - both having to do with antenna locations in attics. I have installed a new coax RG6U from my new Plasma on the ground floor up two stories high into the attic.
> 
> 
> 1. Is there anything I need to do about grounding RE an attic installation of an OTA antenna?
> 
> 
> 2. The attic is as high as any chimney installation would be (without a lot of extra costs). Coupled with tree limb concerns, an attic installation might be my best (and most maintenance free) installation. However, how much reception does one lose in the attic? In other words, what's lost when a signal tries to penetrate a typical roof (plywood, shingles, etc.)? -- Jim F.



Extensive tests to measure Attic and/or Indoor Loss were referenced here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ss#post7892248 

Figure about 13 dB +/- 7 dB, depending on construction variables, etc...


I would recommend trying a (returnable) Preamp in an attic location before you give up and mount it on the roof.....


And the extra attic attenuation may permit the use of a Preamp which would otherwise be overloaded by "nearby" stations if mounted on the roof....


----------



## ltj

GLW65, I agree with you very much. Finding a magic location is no easy job. You may also try to move the antenna horizontally to find out what happens.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GLW65* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I do understand that ch13 is high vhf and ch 14 is uhf and that they are separated by a considerable amount. The truth is, however, that the antenna I am using will pick up Ch13 well at on point on the mast, but not Ch14. If I move the antenna vertically a couple of fee t on the mast, I get Ch14, but loose 13. If the same antenna picks up either channel by itself, doesn't it make sense that it should pick them both up if I can find the right position.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SEMIJim* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Upgraded 15+ year old VHF/UHF antenna to new Winegard HD7078P VHF/UHF antenna.
> 
> 
> Seeking further improvement: .....split the signal with an Ideal 1GHz splitter in lieu of going through the VCR to the TV.
> 
> 
> Channels 62 and 56 digital got worse! _Much_ worse
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anybody got any ideas on how I might proceed? I'm rather at a loss, at this point.



The splitter that you added has loss. A preamp at the antenna will overcome the losses of both the splitter and the coax. I'd suggest the Winegard HDP-269.


----------



## SEMIJim




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The splitter that you added has loss.



Thanks for the follow-up, Tower Guy. (And for wading through that rather lengthly exposition!) Yeah, I know. About 3.5 DB to each receiver. As an experiment, I connected the antenna directly to the TV. No difference.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A preamp at the antenna will overcome the losses of both the splitter and the coax. I'd suggest the Winegard HDP-269.



I thought of that. Either that or bite the bullet and upgrade the antenna (again!) to an HD7082P (two steps up from the HD7078P I have). Not sure which, if either, will produce an improvement, but the HDP-269 is certainly the less expensive gamble, that's for sure.


I've been reading about trees and UHF. Particularly when there are close, dense trees, UHF can be a real crap shoot. I think my next experiment, which will cost me no more than a bit of time, will be to: 1. Find the bearing that yields the strongest analog signal from that same tower. (That should be relatively straight-forward.) 2. Experiment with various heights, by raising and lowering the antenna on the mast, to obtain the most interference-free digital performance. One article I read on UHF and close trees said as little a few inches in antenna elevation can mean the difference between night and day.


Then, depending on how that experiment turns out, give either the HDP-269 or HD7082P a go. Or both.


It would be nice to hear from somebody that experienced similar "close trees" problems and how they addressed it. Short of cutting down the trees, that is


----------



## dennishp50

I've been looking for a directional HDTV antenna that is small and can reach out to "blue" area. I ran across this model (HDTVo) that can be attached to the DirectTV or Dish mast and pick up the local HD channels.


Anyone have this Antenna?


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SEMIJim* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Problem channels were, and are, channel 62 analog, channel 62 digital (real channel is 44) and channel 56 digital (real channel 43). 62 analog noisy and ghost-y. Channels 56 and 62 digital suffer various degrees of disruption, esp. when the wind blows.
> 
> 
> TV stations are all in a cluster, with a 12 degree spread, at an average distance of 14 miles. The problem channels are all on the same tower, at 16.5 miles--the furthest away. The digital ones are only 200KW.
> 
> 
> Anybody got any ideas on how I might proceed? I'm rather at a loss, at this point.



You can do a much better job optimizing your UHF reception if you confine your heroic remedy to UHF components. If you really need VHF, either for some analog now, or, two and a half years from now when some of your DTV channels revert to their final assignment, then you can take those off whatever behemoth you have on your mast, but you can more effectively and more cheaply experiment with the development of a UHF only array.


What's your zip code?


----------



## SEMIJim




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You can do a much better job optimizing your UHF reception if you confine your heroic remedy to UHF components. If you really need VHF, either for some analog now, or, two and a half years from now when some of your DTV channels revert to their final assignment, then you can take those of whatever behemoth you have on your mast, but you can more effectively and more cheaply experiment with the development of a UHF only array.



"Heroic remedy" - LOL!










No doubt I could. I do want to keep VHF in the near term, if for no other reason than the Canadian station south of the border (yes, south, really). One of the problems with this, to which you've alluded, is that when I go to boost UHF performance with the antenna, I end-up carrying along a bunch of VHF "baggage" I don't actually need. Then again: Who knows what'll happen in 2-1/2 years?


In any event: I'm willing to entertain suggestions. That's why I asked







.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What's your zip code?



48327. But that's a big zip code. Just the zip will give you misleading data, particularly since I'm actually in the corner of it closest to the station cluster. So here:
Code:


Code:


DTV Ant. Type     Call      Ch.  Net. City & St.  Bearing  Dist.  Freq.
 *  yellow - uhf  WXYZ-DT   7.1  ABC  DETROIT MI  149°     12.7   41
 *  yellow - uhf  WMYD-DT  20.1  WB   DETROIT MI  141°     16.5   21
 *  yellow - uhf  WDIV-DT   4.1  NBC  DETROIT MI  139°     13.7   45
 *  yellow - uhf  WJBK-DT   2.1  FOX  DETROIT MI  145°     14.4   58
 *  green  - uhf  WWJ-DT   62.1  CBS  DETROIT MI  141°     16.5   44
 *  green  - uhf  WTVS-DT  56.1  PBS  DETROIT MI  141°     16.5   43
    red    - vhf  WXYZ      7    ABC  DETROIT MI  149°     12.7   7
    red    - uhf  WWJ      62    CBS  DETROIT MI  141°     16.5   62
    red    - uhf  WKBD     50    UPN  DETROIT MI  160°     10.3   50
 *  red    - uhf  WKBD-DT  50.1  UPN  DETROIT MI  160°     10.3   14
    red    - uhf  WTVS     56    PBS  DETROIT MI  160°     10.3   56
    red    - uhf  WMYD     20    WB   DETROIT MI  160°     10.3   20
    red    - vhf  WJBK      2    FOX  DETROIT MI  145°     14.4   2
    red    - vhf  WDIV      4    NBC  DETROIT MI  139°     13.7   4

I've edited that down to only the ones of importance.


Note that _none_ of the above-listed stations give me any trouble, except 62, 62.1 and 56.1. Channel 2.1 very infrequently will glitch--but generally so rarely and so briefly that most times I'm not sure I saw it and, sometimes even when I am, I'm not sure if it was me or them.


The thing that's driving me nuts is that, with the antenna at its current location and elevation, I can get 62 analog in quite nicely by aiming directly on its bearing. But if I do that, 62 and 56 digital go away almost completely. Again: They're all three on the same tower.


I should get up on the roof and take a picture of the bearing on that tower from my antenna's location.


----------



## YellowSpoon

I'm about to dump cable and go OTA only. I'll be replacing one of my TV's with a digital TV, but I still will have 2 analog TVs (at least until 2009). I live only 6 miles from the location from which all Boston stations broadcast. I want to get a good UHF antenna to reach for far-away UHF stations. I don't care about VHF stations other than those 6 miles away. VHF channels are being abandoned in three years so I don't want to waste my time getting a VHF antenna if I don't need it. My question is ... Will just-about-any UHF antenna be able to get those 1000 kW VHF stations only 6 miles away over flat terrain?


----------



## YellowSpoon

I'm about to dump cable and go OTA only. I'll be replacing one of my TV's with a digital TV, but I still will have 2 analog TVs (at least until 2009). I live only 6 miles from the location from which all Boston stations broadcast. I want to get a good UHF antenna to reach for far-away UHF stations. I don't care about VHF stations other than those 6 miles away. VHF channels are being abandoned in three years so I don't want to waste my time getting a VHF antenna if I don't need it. My question is ... Will just-about-any UHF antenna be able to get those 1000 kW VHF stations only 6 miles away (over flat terrain)?


----------



## intrac

Best bet is any UHF outdoor antenna. 6 mi is close enough.


It will work as long as you have an ATSC tuner (either built-in or external).


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *YellowSpoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm about to dump cable and go OTA only. I'll be replacing one of my TV's with a digital TV, but I still will have 2 analog TVs (at least until 2009). I live only 6 miles from the location from which all Boston stations broadcast. I want to get a good UHF antenna to reach for far-away UHF stations. I don't care about VHF stations other than those 6 miles away. VHF channels are being abandoned in three years so I don't want to waste my time getting a VHF antenna if I don't need it. My question is ... Will just-about-any UHF antenna be able to get those 1000 kW VHF stations only 6 miles away (over flat terrain)?



Being line-of-sight only 6 miles away, just-about-any UHF antenna will do the local job, but your biggest problem is avoiding overload....esp. when trying to receive the distant stations. A high gain antenna pointed toward the nearby towers may be okay--and if not you might want to add a Variable RF Attenuator (R-S 15-678) on your HDTV's input.


When you point the high gain antenna to distant stations, your HDTV's tuner will be desensitized by the intermod products from the nearby towers. These can be minimized by tweaking the rotator position so that a NULL is pointed towards the nearby towers. The Variable RF Attenuator can also reduce the intermod products, so tweak it to optimize the sensitivity for each channel.

A high gain antenna (e.g. CM4228, 91XG, etc) with deep sidelobe nulls is needed to suppress the local signals. And obviously a Preamp will make things worse...


Good luck, reception within 6 miles can also be plagued with multipath from all of the nearby reflections---and signal leakage into your downlead needs to be minimized by using double or quad shielded RG-6.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *YellowSpoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm about to dump cable and go OTA only. I'll be replacing one of my TV's with a digital TV, but I still will have 2 analog TVs (at least until 2009). I live only 6 miles from the location from which all Boston stations broadcast. I want to get a good UHF antenna to reach for far-away UHF stations. I don't care about VHF stations other than those 6 miles away. VHF channels are being abandoned in three years so I don't want to waste my time getting a VHF antenna if I don't need it. My question is ... Will just-about-any UHF antenna be able to get those 1000 kW VHF stations only 6 miles away over flat terrain?



You should be able to get the Providence stations. One of them has a VHF DTV channel. WHDH will return to channel 7 in 2009. You will need a rotator to get more than just the Boston stations. I'd think again of limiting your consideration to a UHF only antenna.


----------



## Morpheus_Rising




> Quote:
> VHF channels are being abandoned in three years so I don't want to waste my time getting a VHF antenna if I don't need it.



??????? I think you are confusing analog OTA tv stations with VHF-range stations. On February 17, 2009 all analog OTA will cease, as well as UHF stations 53-69 are being elminated. Current 53-69 stations will be reassigned, some might go on the VHF range. Currently, in some areas, there are HDTV stations on VHF. You are limiting yourself by getting only an UHF antenna. Besides, that's two and a half years away, are you going to give up 12 *free* stations for two and a half years?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *YellowSpoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm about to dump cable and go OTA only. I'll be replacing one of my TV's with a digital TV, but I still will have 2 analog TVs (at least until 2009). I live only 6 miles from the location from which all Boston stations broadcast. I want to get a good UHF antenna to reach for far-away UHF stations. I don't care about VHF stations other than those 6 miles away. VHF channels are being abandoned in three years so I don't want to waste my time getting a VHF antenna if I don't need it. My question is ... Will just-about-any UHF antenna be able to get those 1000 kW VHF stations only 6 miles away over flat terrain?



Yes, most UHF antennas should receive your local WHDT-DT when it moves to CH7 VHF station in a couple years....indeed a bent coat hanger should be adequate....


WWDP-DT (SAH network??? currently 20+ miles away in Norwell on CH52) apparently will MOVE to CH10....I hestitate to make any preditions....maybe they are relocating further away to the existing CH10 tower in Providence??? In which case the fol. would also apply...


Although, as you indicated above, you probably don't NEED these duplicative CBS and FOX network feeds.....WPRI-DT will remain on CH13, and WNAC-DT will move to CH12. Being about 30+ miles away in Providence RI, these may need the CM4228, which actually has reasonable gain for the upper VHF (7-13) channels. The CM4228's narrow UHF beam also helps to suppress the local signal levels so you can pick up the distant UHF signals. [Not so much for VHF....]


Tentative Channel Election Results can be found here (FCC posted 23May2006):
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...A-06-991A2.xls


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dennishp50* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've been looking for a directional HDTV antenna that is small and can reach out to "blue" area. I ran across this model (HDTVo) that can be attached to the DirectTV or Dish mast and pick up the local HD channels.
> 
> 
> Anyone have this Antenna?



BLUE means you need a serious antenna....and a Preamp, if indeed you are far enough away from ANY AND ALL towers.


Get a REAL antenna (you know, the ones that actually publish detailed specifications, with separate numbers for the antenna and the Preamp), rather than that overpriced underperformer from Terk.....


Yikes, best on-line price is about $80 and R-S wants $120!!!

Compare that to the CM4221 and CM4228 that we buy locally for $40 to $50....or any of several Winegard Corner-Yagi antennas we can buy locally for even less....plus another $50 for a Preamp....


----------



## coolhdtv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> BLUE means you need a serious antenna....and a Preamp, if indeed you are far enough away from ANY AND ALL towers.
> 
> 
> Get a REAL antenna (you know, the ones that actually publish detailed specifications, with separate numbers for the antenna and the Preamp), rather than that overpriced underperformer from Terk.....
> 
> 
> Yikes, best on-line price is about $80 and R-S wants $120!!!
> 
> Compare that to the CM4221 and CM4228 that we buy locally for $40 to $50....or any of several Winegard Corner-Yagi antennas we can buy locally for even less....plus another $50 for a Preamp....



Can the CM4221 and CM4228 go in the attic? I'm 35 to 45 miles from the towers in 02360 on a hill and get very good reception with rabbit ears except for FOX. Wanted to try these plus the preamp to get everything plus not have rabbit ears in the room.

Thanks


----------



## YellowSpoon




> Quote:
> It will work as long as you have an ATSC tuner (either built-in or external).



The new TV will have an ATSC tuner. I'm concerned about the old NTSC TV's. If I put a UHF-only antenna on the roof, will I be able to pick up the NTSC-analog-VHF stations that are only 6 miles away. I don't want to waste money on a VHF antenna if it'll be obsolete in 30 months. Also, the VHF portion is a lot larger (and uglier) than a cute li'l Yagi or 4-bay.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *YellowSpoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I put a UHF-only antenna on the roof, will I be able to pick up the NTSC-analog-VHF stations that are only 6 miles away. I don't want to waste money on a VHF antenna if it'll be obsolete in 30 months. Also, the VHF portion is a lot larger (and uglier) than a cute li'l Yagi or 4-bay.



You'll probably have to reaim the antenna for best results, but you should get a viewable picture. I have a 91XG and get decent hi-UHF reception from much further than 6 miles, but lo-VHF is hard to gauge, since I'm over 40 miles from the nearest.


At that distance and for that length of time, you could buy a pair of rabbit ears and stick them on your roof. Sure, they'll rust, but even if you went through two or three sets, you wouldn't be out much money.


----------



## SEMIJim




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *YellowSpoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't want to waste money on a VHF antenna if it'll be obsolete in 30 months.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *YellowSpoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> VHF channels are being abandoned in three years so I don't want to waste my time getting a VHF antenna if I don't need it.



The VHF channels are not going to be "abandonded" in 2-1/2 years. What's being re-assigned is the *UHF* portion currently occupied by channels 52-69. Please see How do current TV broadcasts and DTV compare to each other? and 

Are DTV signals broadcast on special frequencies?


----------



## SEMIJim




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *coolhdtv* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can the CM4221 and CM4228 go in the attic?



I suppose that would depend on the dimensions of your attic. Suggest you go to ChannelMaster's web site , find the antennas in question, make a note of their (size) specs, and measure your attic space.


----------



## YellowSpoon




> Quote:
> The VHF channels are not going to be "abandonded" in 2-1/2 years. What's being re-assigned is the UHF portion currently occupied by channels 52-69. Please see (link omitted)



Let me rephrase. Our local VHF stations are being abandoned. Local channels 2,4,5, 6, and 10 have announced their intention of moving to UHF. Only channels 7 and 12 will use VHF for digital after the switchover. VHF low (2-6) won't have anybody. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


Now, I don't care about channel 12 as we already have a CBS affiliate on channel 30. What I'm asking is that if I get a good UHF antenna to reach those faraway UHF stations, will that UHF antenna pickup channel 7 which is only 6 miles away? I don't wanna get a bulky VHF antenna if I don't have to.


----------



## GLW65

Here is an update on my ability to get CH13 and CH14 to come in at the same time. I repositioned one of the CM3021 antennas on the mast so it received CH14 (plus 21,36,38,46). It does not get CH13. Since 13 is high VHF, I positioned the other CM3021 about 3 feet to the side and about six feet lower than the other antenna using a separate mast. I did have both antennas fed into a splitter and fed into the combined input of my CM7777 preamp. With the second antenna optimized to CH13, I separated the inputs and changed the setting on the CM7777 with the CH13 receiving CM3021 going into the VHF input. I now get all channels with a 60+ signal strength. Even so, I get some drop outs on the UHF channels. I still have the close trees and the hill to contend with. I will try this for a while, but may later combine the two CM3021's to make a CM4228 equivalent and use it for the UHF signals. Then, I will buy another antenna to get Ch13. How much gain do you suspect I might get in going from a CM3021 to a CM4228? Any suggestions on how to combine the 2 CM3021's into a 4228? Should I join them with metal connectors or non conductive connectors?


----------



## jrnoel

I have a cm 4228 mounted in my attic. I live about 30 miles from my local stations and I get 70-94% signal on them all. I don't have a preamp hooked up. Only one of my locals gets a little pixely from time to time and that is the one that is a little over 70%. I would try the antenna by it self first and if you don't get good enough signal, then get the preamp.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *YellowSpoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What I'm asking is that if I get a good UHF antenna to reach those faraway UHF stations, will that UHF antenna pickup channel 7 which is only 6 miles away?



Probably. I have a CM 4228 to receive UHF from 70 miles away, and I have a VHF on channel 9 that is 30 miles away, and at a 90 degree angle to the distant one. I can receive channel 9 just fine. I used to have a RS U-75R (model?) UHF antenna that would pick up the channel 9 if I pointed it right at the tower. YMMV


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *coolhdtv* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can the CM4221 and CM4228 go in the attic? I'm 35 to 45 miles from the towers in 02360 on a hill and get very good reception with rabbit ears except for FOX. Wanted to try these plus the preamp to get everything plus not have rabbit ears in the room.
> 
> Thanks



I'm not sure where you are located. Zipcode 02360 is Plymouth MA (about 30+ miles East of Providence RI), whereas your one and only other post is for Ft Meyers, FL thread (zipcode 339xx)....which is it????


The CM4228 may be difficult to get through some attic entry holes--in which case the rear screens can be readily removed by disconneccting input connection screw pair and untwisting some tabs. But it is compact enough to fit in between most rafters--unlike many of the big VHF/UHF Combos and Corner-Yagi's....


Of course, if you need to use a rotator in the attic, it becomes more difficult to "swing" a CM4228 and the CM4221 also may be a tight squeeze.

But, if you have the room, it's doable as these other users have demonstrated:


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *YellowSpoon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What I'm asking is that if I get a good UHF antenna to reach those faraway UHF stations, will that UHF antenna pickup channel 7 which is only 6 miles away? I don't wanna get a bulky VHF antenna if I don't have to.



It's only 6 miles away--it's gonna leak in no matter WHAT you do!!!!!


If you are looking for something more quantitative, Kerry Cozad (Dielectric Co, the guys who make DTV Xmit antennas) performed actual on-air measurements of VHF antenna gain for several UHF-only antennas, found here:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1126051755


----------



## foamy909

Hi -

I have been lurking in this forum for about a week now and I have to say there is a wealth of information here and in the Chicago OTA thread. I am in the first stages of looking into getting a HDTV, and would like some advice regarding an antenna and placement. From AntennaWeb, I have gotten the following:


yellow-uhf__WTTW-DT_11.1__PBS__CHICAGO__IL__14°__10.7__47

yellow-uhf__WPWR-DT_50.1__UPN__GARY_____IN__14°__10.7__51

yellow-uhf__WFLD-DT__32.1__FOX__CHICAGO__IL__14°__10.7__31

yellow-uhf__WLS-DT____7.1__ABC__CHICAGO__IL__14°__10.7__52

yellow-uhf__WMAQ-DT__5.1__NBC__CHICAGO__IL__14°__10.7__29

yellow-uhf__WGN-DT____9.1__WB__CHICAGO__IL__14°__10.7__19

green-uhf__WJYS-DT__36.1__REL_HAMMOND__IN__14°__10.7__36

red-vhf____WBBM-DT__2.1__CBS__CHICAGO__IL__16°__12.2__3

red-uhf____WCIU-DT__26.1__IND__CHICAGO__IL__14°__10.7__27


I am looking at the Winegard HD7210P Ghost Killer. There is what looks like a previous antenna mount on a dormer on the east side of the house. What worries me is a significant pine tree twenty feet to the north, directly in line with the mount, probably fifteen feet wide at the height of the antenna. Is it worth even attempting to install it there?


Other options would probably avoid the tree, but lack either height or accessibility. I have a small one-car attached garage with a flat roof, but I don't think I could get the antenna much more than 13' above ground level, which would place it below the roofline of the neighbor's house to the north. There is a peak towards the front of the house by the chimney, but the pitch of the roof is extremely steep and the installation would prove difficult.


We are going to have a new roof installed within the month, doing a complete tear-off. Is a tripod mount on the center peak (not as steep), avoiding the tree, a good option? I would guess that they could insure the integrity of the roof, installing it at the best possible stage.


One item to note: We are at approximately 650 ft elevation, within a couple blocks of the highest point in the city.


Thanks in advance for any and all advice


----------



## Oldfart

GLW65:


When it comes to reception of high band VHF, two CM3021 antennas do not equal one CM4228. If you look at the picture of the 4228 at http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/4228manual.pdf , you will see a rectangular support structure. It is that support structure which to a significant extent accounts for the VHF capability of the 4228.


----------



## coolhdtv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm not sure where you are located. Zipcode 02360 is Plymouth MA (about 30+ miles East of Providence RI), whereas your one and only other post is for Ft Meyers, FL thread (zipcode 339xx)....which is it????
> 
> 
> The CM4228 may be difficult to get through some attic entry holes--in which case the rear screens can be readily removed by disconneccting input connection screw pair and untwisting some tabs. But it is compact enough to fit in between most rafters--unlike many of the big VHF/UHF Combos and Corner-Yagi's....
> 
> 
> Of course, if you need to use a rotator in the attic, it becomes more difficult to "swing" a CM4228 and the CM4221 also may be a tight squeeze.
> 
> But, if you have the room, it's doable as these other users have demonstrated:



Thank you, that's exactly what I needed including pictures! The only other picture I found was someone who had it standing in the living room. The 4228 will fit in the attic I just wasn't sure how to install it and what the signal strength should be. It arrives tomorrow via UPS. I'll hold off on the rotator and amp for now and drop the RG6 down through the wall to the TV. I'm in Plymouth for summer and Ft Myers for winter so I'd like to take it with me rather than attach to roof plus I get bad wind. Although I get local HD on H20 via sat out of Boston, I like the antenna for backup and a few extra channels. Ft Myers requires OTA for HD locals. Thanks again!


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *foamy909* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What worries me is a significant pine tree twenty feet to the north, directly in line with the mount, probably fifteen feet wide at the height of the antenna. Is it worth even attempting to install it there?



Sure is. I doubt you'd have any reception troubles due to the tree at your distance.


The antenna you've picked looks okay, but as you well know from the Chicago thread, WBBM is going to be tricky.


----------



## geogecko

I've got a couple FusionHDTV 5 Lite cards in my HTPC, which I use for OTA HDTV reception. I also have the DB-8 antenna in my attic from AntennasDirect.


The recent upgrade was adding the second Fusion card, which caused me to install a 2-way splitter to get a signal to both cards. I appear to have dropped the signal enough now, that I get stuttering on the feeds. Using the Signal Checker software from DViCO, I monitored the local Fox channel in my area. I used to have 100% signal strength on that channel, now I'm down to about 80-85% or about 23dB. (Not sure what the power was at 100%.)


Anyway, I went to the local Radio Shack, and bought the 15-1170 in-line amplifier, and installed the amplifier directly on the coax output of the antenna in the attic. There is about 75 feet of RG6 between the antenna and the connection down in the living room (no splits). I installed the power injector on the cable that I have hooked up to the wall outlet, and then the other side of that to my 2-way splitter.


Well, after powering the amp up, I have exactly the same power level I did before installing it!


So, I'm guessing that that amp is a piece of junk (as the sales associate tried to tell me, but I didn't listen, because he said almost everyone that buys it brings it back, I just figured people weren't hooking it up right).


So, I'm now considering the 15-2507, which has a potential 20-30dB of gain. Could this possibly work where the other one failed? I guess if the in-line amplifier (1170) was already saturated, to where it was clipping, then my signal from the antenna may have been strong enough, and the need for a pre-amp was nil? That is the only explanation I can come up with, except for the fact that it's just junk.


Could I possibly be providing too much gain by going with the 15-2507, or should I consider the 15-2505, and just put that inside the house, right before the splitter?


----------



## foamy909




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sure is. I doubt you'd have any reception troubles due to the tree at your distance.
> 
> 
> The antenna you've picked looks okay, but as you well know from the Chicago thread, WBBM is going to be tricky.



Thanks for the info...I am not 100% sold on the Winegard and am open to other ideas. I picked it due to availability at TriState Electronics, which is not far from where I work. Do you have another suggestion in a similar price range? ($50-$60).


I have looked at the Folded Dipole link by Rick Matthews and thought an attic installation on the north side of the house would help with WBBM, if necessary.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *foamy909* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do you have another suggestion in a similar price range? ($50-$60).



Given that you need VHF hi and lo, and UHF, there's probably nothing else in that price range that would be better. You'd have to go larger (and therefore more expensive) to get significantly better results.


----------



## SEMIJim

If you want a real amplifier, I fear you're going to have to go somewhere other than Radio Shack. RS has its uses, but high-quality electronics isn't precisely what they're known for.


The best place for a pre-amp is _before_ the long coax run. That way you're not amplifying any noise induced by the coax run itself.


----------



## geogecko




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SEMIJim* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you want a real amplifier, I fear you're going to have to go somewhere other than Radio Shack. RS has its uses, but high-quality electronics isn't precisely what they're known for.
> 
> 
> The best place for a pre-amp is _before_ the long coax run. That way you're not amplifying any noise induced by the coax run itself.



Might you have any suggestions? Perhaps one of the ones on the list here?


I do not mind spending a few bucks to get a good amplifier, but really wouldn't want to pay more than $100.


Yeah, I did notice the words, "Made in China" stamped on the back of the power injector...so after it didn't work, I just assumed that it might have something to do with that.


----------



## foamy909




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Given that you need VHF hi and lo, and UHF, there's probably nothing else in that price range that would be better. You'd have to go larger (and therefore more expensive) to get significantly better results.



I would consider moving up to the Winegard HD7080P for a few bucks more if it would significantly improve reception of vhf-lo, but it is not that much larger, seemingly just more elements. I am not knowledgable about what specifications would help the most in that area. The HD7082P is a bit more than what I want to spend, and seems a bit much for my needs.


----------



## brunowolf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Probably. I have a CM 4228 to receive UHF from 70 miles away, and I have a VHF on channel 9 that is 30 miles away, and at a 90 degree angle to the distant one. I can receive channel 9 just fine. I used to have a RS U-75R (model?) UHF antenna that would pick up the channel 9 if I pointed it right at the tower. YMMV



Are you using a preamp with the CM 4228?


I am 25-40 miles from my local (Greensboro,NC) towers all on a heading of 56-66 degrees. In the opposite direction, 235-257 degrees, are the Charlotte stations at 60 miles. I would like pull in both sets of stations.


Do you think I need a rotator if I use the CM 4221 or 4228? Or would I need a preamp instead?


Thanks for helping an OTA newbie.


----------



## geogecko

Anyone have details on the Pico Macom MPA-HD?


Can't seem to find any data sheets on it.


----------



## nyupipe

I live about 3 miles outside of NYC in NJ. I have Directv installing their OTA tommorrow on my roof. Should I be considering another route? How difficult is it to pick up stations listed as blue on antennaweb.org? Based on your expert opinions which of the following channels will the Directv antenna pick up, and is there another solution which does not involve an extremly large or expensive antennas which would provide a significant increase in reception?


Here is the info provided by antennaweb.


DTV Antenna

Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live

Date Compass

Orientation Miles

From Frequency

Assignment

* yellow - uhf WNJN-DT 51.1 PBS MONTCLAIR NJ 325° 11.2 51

* yellow - uhf WNJU-DT 36 TEL LINDEN NJ 168° 3.4 36

* yellow - uhf WPXN-DT 31.1 i NEW YORK NY 168° 3.4 30

* yellow - uhf WWOR-DT 9.1 UPN SECAUCUS NJ 114° 2.9 38

* yellow - uhf WNYW-DT 5.1 FOX NEW YORK NY 114° 2.9 44

* yellow - uhf WPIX-DT 11.1 WB NEW YORK NY 114° 2.9 33

* yellow - uhf WXTV-DT 41.1 UNI PATERSON NJ 114° 2.9 40

* yellow - uhf WNET-DT 13.1 PBS NEWARK NJ 114° 2.9 61

* yellow - uhf WABC-DT 7.1 ABC NEW YORK NY 103° 2.8 45

* yellow - uhf WCBS-DT 2.1 CBS NEW YORK NY 114° 2.9 56

* green - uhf WNBC-DT 4.1 NBC NEW YORK NY 99° 3.1 28

* green - uhf WFUT-DT 68.1 TFA NEWARK NJ 103° 2.8 53

* red - uhf WNYE-DT 25.1 IND NEW YORK NY 157° 5.7 24

* red - uhf WMBC-DT 63.1 IND NEWTON NJ 315° 33.8 18

* blue - uhf WNJT-DT 43.1 PBS TRENTON NJ 239° 47.1 43


----------



## newsposter

trees are not always obstacles. My installer was worried about a tree (it was winter) but i said, nope, that's the best signal and put it there. I'll worry about it later if it goes out.


Well into summer now and zero problems. The tree is well over 100ft high and very wide. BUT fortunately it's 200ft away. I know there is a diagram somewhere about how uhf travels but cant' find it. Good luck!


----------



## holl_ands

It doesn't immediately pop up on www.picomacom.com .

However, Google found it in their catalog (page B-6):
http://www.picomacom.com/macom/pdf/c.../Section-B.pdf 


15-17 dB Gain (higher for UHF???)

3 dB VHF N.F. (ok) and 5 dB UHF N.F. (not so hot)

30 dBmV = 90 dBuV (VHF) and 25 dBmV = 85 dBuV (UHF) Maximum Input with 15 simultaneous carrier signals (very poor)


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ................ I know there is a diagram somewhere about how uhf travels but cant' find it. Good luck!



I think this is what you were looking for.......... http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html 


Steve


----------



## geogecko

Hmm...thanks for finding that. I e-mailed them, and they said they didn't have it in PDF format, so they scanned a picture of it from that very catalog, but it was unreadable...


I just bought a Channel Master 7777. It seems to have better specs. than this Pico Macom. Are there max input specs for the 7777?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *foamy909* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> We are going to have a new roof installed within the month, doing a complete tear-off. Is a tripod mount on the center peak (not as steep), avoiding the tree, a good option? I would guess that they could insure the integrity of the roof, installing it at the best possible stage.
> 
> 
> One item to note: We are at approximately 650 ft elevation, within a couple blocks of the highest point in the city.



You aren't very far away from the towers (10-12 miles) and have lots of height to begin with....

Have you considered mounting it in the attic so it doesn't shoot through the trees???

No climbing, no weather, no maintenance....


----------



## nyupipe

I live about 3 miles outside of NYC in NJ. I have Directv installing their OTA tommorrow on my roof. Should I be considering another route? How difficult is it to pick up stations listed as blue on antennaweb.org? Based on your expert opinions which of the following channels will the Directv antenna pick up, and is there another solution which does not involve an extremly large or expensive antennas which would provide a significant increase in reception?


Here is the info provided by antennaweb.


DTV Antenna

Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live

Date Compass

Orientation Miles

From Frequency

Assignment

* yellow - uhf WNJN-DT 51.1 PBS MONTCLAIR NJ 325° 11.2 51

* yellow - uhf WNJU-DT 36 TEL LINDEN NJ 168° 3.4 36

* yellow - uhf WPXN-DT 31.1 i NEW YORK NY 168° 3.4 30

* yellow - uhf WWOR-DT 9.1 UPN SECAUCUS NJ 114° 2.9 38

* yellow - uhf WNYW-DT 5.1 FOX NEW YORK NY 114° 2.9 44

* yellow - uhf WPIX-DT 11.1 WB NEW YORK NY 114° 2.9 33

* yellow - uhf WXTV-DT 41.1 UNI PATERSON NJ 114° 2.9 40

* yellow - uhf WNET-DT 13.1 PBS NEWARK NJ 114° 2.9 61

* yellow - uhf WABC-DT 7.1 ABC NEW YORK NY 103° 2.8 45

* yellow - uhf WCBS-DT 2.1 CBS NEW YORK NY 114° 2.9 56

* green - uhf WNBC-DT 4.1 NBC NEW YORK NY 99° 3.1 28

* green - uhf WFUT-DT 68.1 TFA NEWARK NJ 103° 2.8 53

* red - uhf WNYE-DT 25.1 IND NEW YORK NY 157° 5.7 24

* red - uhf WMBC-DT 63.1 IND NEWTON NJ 315° 33.8 18

* blue - uhf WNJT-DT 43.1 PBS TRENTON NJ 239° 47.1 43


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *brunowolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are you using a preamp with the CM 4228?



Yes, I am.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *brunowolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am 25-40 miles from my local (Greensboro,NC) towers all on a heading of 56-66 degrees. In the opposite direction, 235-257 degrees, are the Charlotte stations at 60 miles. I would like pull in both sets of stations.



Might work if you aimed the antenna towards Charlotte. Can't say for sure 'till you try. If you remove the screen on the back of either the 4221 or 4228, they become essentially bi-directional. But the stations from one city could interfere with ones from the other if they are close in frequency.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *brunowolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do you think I need a rotator if I use the CM 4221 or 4228? Or would I need a preamp instead?



Rotators are good for a number of reasons, but I never installed mine after I saw how good the results were without it. As for the pre-amp, I'd recommend you try without one first and if that doesn't work, then add the amp. All things considered, you are better off without a pre-amp, if you don't really need one.


----------



## foamy909




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You aren't very far away from the towers (10-12 miles) and have lots of height to begin with....
> 
> Have you considered mounting it in the attic so it doesn't shoot through the trees???
> 
> No climbing, no weather, no maintenance....



I think my elevation number is a bit misleading. The highest point in the city that I mentioned is only maybe 100 ft higher than the lowest point, at the shore of Lake Michigan. All I meant by it was that there was not much between us and the towers (except the previously discussed tree). I guess that is why people from Wisconsin call us flatlanders, usually with an expletive in front of it...


With all of the problems I have heard about WBBM-DT ( low-vhf) I don't think an attic mount will probably work. I have a couple pictures I may try to attach, but I don't think I have enough posts.


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *foamy909* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info...I am not 100% sold on the Winegard and am open to other ideas. I picked it due to availability at TriState Electronics, which is not far from where I work. Do you have another suggestion in a similar price range? ($50-$60).
> 
> 
> I have looked at the Folded Dipole link by Rick Matthews and thought an attic installation on the north side of the house would help with WBBM, if necessary.



Foamy

I use the HD7210 in my attic for both analog and digital reception at about 10 miles from the antenna farm in Houston. We have a ch-2 analog and a ch-5 digital that we receive with it. The reason I chose the 7210 over the rest was simply because the Lo-V elements allowed me to navigate around the attic supports better than most other antennas, thus I could place it where I got the best signal rather than having to just put it where I could fit it. (One of the few cases where less is more.)


If I had my antenna mounted outside, I'd probably use a CM5646 "Super-V" antenna instead. It does slightly better on both Hi-V and Lo-V than the 7210; UHF is too close to close to call. It usually does better with the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) too, due to the V configuration having less width, thus appearing to be a smaller antenna than the 7210.


Bob Chase

KHCW-DT


----------



## foamy909




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> trees are not always obstacles. My installer was worried about a tree (it was winter) but i said, nope, that's the best signal and put it there. I'll worry about it later if it goes out.
> 
> 
> Well into summer now and zero problems. The tree is well over 100ft high and very wide. BUT fortunately it's 200ft away. I know there is a diagram somewhere about how uhf travels but cant' find it. Good luck!



I think I might have a bit more of a problem, as the tree is very close. Looking at the above link (Thanks *goldrich*!) makes me think I should consider a different mount. I think I can now post a picture as this is my fifth post...I hope they show up..


The mount is on the right edge of the dormer, with the tree directly to the north. Pointing the antenna to the recommended 14° puts it straight through the tree. The pix turned out a bit small, but I think the ground-view shows it better.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bobchase* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I use the HD7210 in my attic for both analog and digital reception at about 10 miles from the antenna farm in Houston. We have a ch-2 analog and a ch-5 digital that we receive with it. The reason I chose the 7210 over the rest was simply because the Lo-V elements allowed me to navigate around the attic supports better than most other antennas, thus I could place it where I got the best signal rather than having to just put it where I could fit it. (One of the few cases where less is more.)



Using our attic would be a short term solution, as we will probably be finishing it in a year or so. I did notice another part of the roof that may work ok, but I will have to take another look over the weekend. I may look into the ChannelMaster you mentioned, if I can find a place where I can pick it up and not have to ship.


thanks to all for your advice


----------



## SEMIJim




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geogecko* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Might you have any suggestions? Perhaps one of the ones on the list here?



Not really. I've had a couple of people here recommend to me the Winegard HDP-269 (about $50 on-line), but that's a relatively low-gain pre-amp primarily designed to overcome coax and splitter loss, I believe. Then again: Looking back, that seems to be precisely your issue, so maybe that one would be a perfect fit for you? Warren Electronics carries them. I bought my antenna from them and was satisfied with the experience.


I suggest doing a search in this forum section (_HDTV Reception Hardware_) and the _Local HDTV Info and Reception_ section for "pre-amp" and see what turns up. (You'll probably get lots of hits.)



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geogecko* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yeah, I did notice the words, "Made in China" stamped on the back of the power injector...so after it didn't work, I just assumed that it might have something to do with that.



Not particularly. Most of the electonics we buy in North America anymore are made somewhere off-shore, where the labour is much less expensive







.


----------



## rcodey




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nyupipe* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live about 3 miles outside of NYC in NJ. I have Directv installing their OTA tommorrow on my roof. Should I be considering another route? How difficult is it to pick up stations listed as blue on antennaweb.org? Based on your expert opinions which of the following channels will the Directv antenna pick up, and is there another solution which does not involve an extremly large or expensive antennas which would provide a significant increase in reception?



3 miles outside NYC,you shouldn't have any problems with NYC stations.I'm 12 miles West of NYC and have no trouble.


----------



## geogecko

Yeah, I just noticed the Channel Master I bought has the same text, "Made in China."


Hopefully it will perform better.


I just measured with my signal checker software, and the splitter taken off, and I see about 28-29dB, or what it calls, 95-100% signal strength. So, that 4dB appears to be what is killing me.


It will probably be a week or so, since I bought one off of eBay.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *foamy909* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think my elevation number is a bit misleading. The highest point in the city that I mentioned is only maybe 100 ft higher than the lowest point, at the shore of Lake Michigan. All I meant by it was that there was not much between us and the towers (except the previously discussed tree). I guess that is why people from Wisconsin call us flatlanders, usually with an expletive in front of it...
> 
> 
> With all of the problems I have heard about WBBM-DT ( low-vhf) I don't think an attic mount will probably work. I have a couple pictures I may try to attach, but I don't think I have enough posts.



WBBM-DT is only 12 miles away, and although it doesn't have lots of power, it has enough to provide calculated Class B coverage out to about 50 miles for roof mounted antennas.


Can you receive a GOOD signal for Analog WBBM on CH2 using rabbit ears indoors ...or in attic????

If so, WBBM-DT on CH3 should work well with same antenna arrangement.


You could probably get by with a UHF antenna (attic or roof) which will have at least some "gain" for CH3 (esp CM4228), although you could also try a pair of rabbit ears or a very "low profile" folded dipole in the attic and use a conveniently located UHF/VHF combiner.

It's at least worth a trial run using CH2 before you start trying different roof mount locations....esp. since lo-band VHF antennas can be monsters....


BTW: Although a big tree can block the direct path, multipath reflections off of your neighbors will also bounce signals into your antenna....today's so-called 5th Gen receivers are very good at coherently combining these signals.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *goldrich* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think this is what you were looking for.......... http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html
> 
> 
> Steve



thanks, and as an aside, it's finally nice to have independent confirmation that higher isn't always better


----------



## foamy909




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can you receive a GOOD signal for Analog WBBM on CH2 using rabbit ears indoors ...or in attic????
> 
> If so, WBBM-DT on CH3 should work well with same antenna arrangement.
> 
> 
> You could probably get by with a UHF antenna (attic or roof) which will have at least some "gain" for CH3 (esp CM4228), although you could also try a pair of rabbit ears or a very "low profile" folded dipole in the attic and use a conveniently located UHF/VHF combiner.
> 
> It's at least worth a trial run using CH2 before you start trying different roof mount locations....esp. since lo-band VHF antennas can be monsters....
> 
> 
> BTW: Although a big tree can block the direct path, multipath reflections off of your neighbors will also bounce signals into your antenna....today's so-called 5th Gen receivers are very good at coherently combining these signals.



I think I will try the channel 2 analog test with a set of rabbit ears, just to get an idea. I am going to investigate a new possible roof mount location this weekend, as I noticed something I had not before.


In regards to the 5th gen tuners, is there any way to tell what chip is in what tv? I had not considered that variable in regards to making a choice. I thought I saw on other forums that it is an LG chipset. I would assume the newest Philips LCD models would have it, considering their relationship with LG.


I know this is not the correct forum for this, so if anyone can point me in the right direction, I would appreciate it.


----------



## SEMIJim




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> thanks, and as an aside, it's finally nice to have independent confirmation that higher isn't always better



Somehow I just _knew_ that was coming







.


For the record: I never asserted that "higher is always better." The point I was trying to make was that _your particular experience_ was not a valid demonstration that it wasn't. You cannot change a number of variables all at once, point to a change in the outcome, and then assume it was one particular variable out of all that were changed that was solely responsible for the changed results.


I made a number of changes to my antenna installation last weekend. Amongst them was raising the antenna height by 3 feet. The things I was looking to improve actually got worse. I _suspect_ antenna height is the culprit. But until I do further experimentation, changing variables one-by-one, thus elminating the influence of the other variables, I won't know that for sure.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> thanks, and as an aside, it's finally nice to have independent confirmation that higher isn't always better



I think the problem is that everyone wants hard-and-fast rules for reception, and there just aren't any. There are general principles, but there are hundreds of variables involved in reception and they interact in a lot of goofy ways.


If it makes you feel better, lower is better than higher if the higher location is inside a metal, lead-lined box.


There is also a limit to higher is better, generally accepted at be about 12' above the highest obstacle between you and the transmitting antenna. Above that point, benefits tend to disappear for relatively minor changes.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *foamy909* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think I will try the channel 2 analog test with a set of rabbit ears, just to get an idea. I am going to investigate a new possible roof mount location this weekend, as I noticed something I had not before.
> 
> 
> In regards to the 5th gen tuners, is there any way to tell what chip is in what tv? I had not considered that variable in regards to making a choice. I thought I saw on other forums that it is an LG chipset. I would assume the newest Philips LCD models would have it, considering their relationship with LG.
> 
> 
> I know this is not the correct forum for this, so if anyone can point me in the right direction, I would appreciate it.



ALL of the chip manufacturers are making chips that are head and shoulders better than the limited performance chips that they made two years ago. These new chips are finally getting into new HDTVs, USB Tuners and PCI Card Tuners.


Unfortunately we haven't seen any OTA STBs or DVRs with the new chips.

Although I don't yet know what is used in the OTA tuners in the new TIVO Series 3.....

Good News: Samsung announced a new OTA STB will be available "this fall":
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6354840.html 

Which begs the question as to which of their HDTVs include new chips, and whether from Samsung, LG or ATI....


The Zenith 5th Gen chip gets a lot of coverage, but the ATI Theater chip is roughly equal and is probably in more new HDTVs and the new Samsung chip is probably in some receivers, but it is very difficult to determine which has what.... Other chip manufacturers have new and presumably improved chips, but they haven't released test data, so they remain incognito...


In the fol thread you will see that most LG HDTVs presumably include the new LG 5th Gen chip---but other manufacturers are also using LG and other 5th Gen chips as well...


Until someone actually opens up the set and LOOKS for the ATSC Decoder chip, there is no easy way to confirm for sure....unless you're a knowledgeable service tech....maybe you can call tech support and hopefully get an understandable answer....


Here is the 5th Gen Chip thread, where I posted links to lab tests performed on PROTOTYPE Lynx/Micronas, LG/Zenith, and Samsung 5th Gen chips....ATI comparison tests and an FCC sponsored comparison test:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9post7024579 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7post6339487 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6post6059066 

Of course note that these tests are on prototypes vice later production equipment.

The latest tested Samsung chip had the best performance, but there has been lots of time for the Micronas and LG to improve their chips since they were last tested....


----------



## coolhdtv

I finally got the CM4228 installed in the attic. Hardest part was fishing the coax. What signal meter are you using to determine the db and what is the expected level? My HR10-250 shows antenna signal of 93% sat of 99% but I'm not sure if there's more I need to know. OTA has never been better and I finally get FOX from 02360.


I now plan to split the signal to the H20 in another room. I saw a powered RCA splitter at Home Depot when I got the brackets. Is that what I use or should I use just a generric 2 way coax splitter.


CM4228 $49

50ft RG6 $25

Brackets $9

More channels and less compressed locals than MPEG4...


Priceless


----------



## coolhdtv

Thanks, I'm at 02360. I'll use a normal splitter first then check the strength on the H20 if I can find out how and if I can fish the coax. I'll get any signal meter. I just didn't see one at Home Depot. I'll probably use it as much as my electric voltage meter. Once.


----------



## geogecko

My guess is you're going to drop to about 85% by using a passive splitter. The drop will be between 3.5 and 4dB. This may or may not work for you. When I did it, it did not work, I still got a signal, but it was pixelated and stuttered quite often.


----------



## Myth

i agree


----------



## BoB-O TiVo

Hey all,


I just put a RS VU-90 XR in my attic. VHF looks great. Analog UHF looks great. Digital channels are another question; I can't lock most channels. I live in Redmond, WA (suburb of Seattle) and am 15 miles away from the transmitters I want to receive. My D* receiver tells me that I'm getting a ~15 signal on the major networks. The question is, will an amplifier help? I have a 50ft run from the attic to the wiring closet and then point-to-point runs to each room.


If an amp isn't the way to go, can somebody suggest a good combo antenna (CM 3018?) or a good antenna 'system' (antennas, combiners, amps, etc.) to get VHF (for my guest bedrooms) and good digital UHF?


Thanks!

BoB


----------



## geogecko

Rick.


I was basing my numbers on his comment:



> Quote:
> My HR10-250 shows antenna signal of 93% sat of 99% but I'm not sure if there's more I need to know.



If that measurement is correct, and depending on how sensitive the Rx is, I would think it is somewhat safe to say that he'll be around 85%. That may not mean that he won't be able to Rx it, but it's getting closer to that point of not being able to.


You are right, ideally, a 2-way splitter "should" only drop the power by half, but I've found in practice, at least with locally available (and maybe that's part of the problem), it's more like 4dB.


Now, if he had said that he had 100%, then one couldn't really make any judgement, because at 100%, you don't know if the power is "just right" or 6dB, 9dB over what the Rx needs to consider 100%. In that case, inserting the splitter may still leave him at 100%. But the fact that he is seeing 93% in some cases, means the Rx is not getting what it considers a perfect level signal.


Maybe I was a bit dramatic, and since I know nothing about his Rx, or his antenna setup, I couldn't say for sure. We'll just have to see.


On another note, I just bought the CM-7777, but I do live almost exactly 35 miles from the towers (some 32 miles). The other thing is, that my antenna is in the attic, and not on the roof, which is why I bought an antenna that could bring in signals about 70 miles away. I'm hoping that this amplifier will be able to help with the cable and single 2-way splitter losses that I have, and at least give me enough to stay around the 100% mark on my tuners.


Any idea what the losses are through 75 feet of RG6? I'm guessing between 3-6dB, for most of the UHF channels?


----------



## AntAltMike

I haven't followed this thread recently, so I don't know if this coment is redundant or not, but the displyed signal strength number is something arbitrary derived from a secret algorithm incorporated into each receiver, and that differs from receiver to receiver. It probably varies inversely with the amount of forward error correction taking place. I can pad down a strong signal by 20dB and get the same signal strength reading as I get at full strength, and if I continuously vary its strength, it will sometimes go up and down over that range.


----------



## geogecko

LOL. I'd be interested in your numbers from your HD Tivo. I've got my OTA coming into FusionHDTV 5 Lite PC cards. They seem to be rather sensitive to anything below about 85% or so (24dB coming in). When I have about 99-100% (or about 28dB), they are more than happy with that.


It sounds like the CM should help, if my cable losses are more than your cable losses (which I'm sure they are, if you're using Belden cable), plus adding the 4dB of drop from the splitter, that should be fine. I bought the in-line piece of crap from Radio Shack, and it did not give any signal improvement at all. I took it back, and ordered the CM.


Thanks.


----------



## geogecko

Mike. That's interesting, and kind of what I expected. I figured that not everyone uses the same algorithm, seeing as how each device could be using a different tuner, which could require different signal strenths.


So, it's up to the guy putting in the splitter to let us know how much his signal went down.


----------



## AntAltMike

We don't have any way to calculate or even reliable estimate our preamplifier input overload thresholds because the problem I most often encounter is when an intermodulation byproduct of the stronger signals degrades one of the weaker signal to the point at which it cannot be reliably processed. To calculate that level, we'd have to know the absolute strength and frequency of each signal in the system, calculate the amplitude and frequency of each undesired, on-channel byproduct, and then determine whether that byproduct was of a magnitude and nature to fatally degrade the desired signal.


Most consumer pre-amplifier ratings are for a small number of equal strength channels, calculating the point at which one of the equal strength analog channels would first develop visible degradation, either in the form of sync compression, or ribs from inband spikes. Cable companies, on the other hand, have large, uniform loads and the additional complication of cascading of intermodulation byproducts, but while their amplifiers theoretically produce lot more interference, because of the larger channel load and need to drive them to maximum power, the people engineering those distribution systems have it easier than we do, because all of their system parameters are known and constant.



That's why we wing it here, instead.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geogecko* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> LOL. I'd be interested in your numbers from your HD Tivo. I've got my OTA coming into FusionHDTV 5 Lite PC cards. They seem to be rather sensitive to anything below about 85% or so (24dB coming in). When I have about 99-100% (or about 28dB), they are more than happy with that.



I don't know to whom that request was directed, but don't have an HD Tivo. I do have a FushionHDTV5 USB module that I bought to use for roof-top analysis of "signal quality", since the last time I priced a meter with the capability of measuring and displaying pre-corrected bit error rates for broadcast 8VSB, the cheapest stand-alone one costs $8,000, but I haven't used my Fusion unit in a long time because it takes my PC forever to boot up with that program.


I also have a customer base of a couple hundred large buildings for which I maintain the master antenna system, and have installed multi-antenna array broadcast DTV reception headends in about a dozen, and I filter and balance each input signal as best as I can within my budget. My systems typically mix the antenna inputs of at least 16 broadcast DTV channels and a dozen analog ones, coming from five different cities. Since I try to keep the price of these headends down to $5,000 each, I don't always have the means to balance adjacent or even alternate channels as well as I'd like to.


When I am putting the finishing touches on a system, I usually have a consumer DTV tuner box in the room where the headend processing equipment is stored, and of course I also have a spectrum analyzer, so I have a lot of reliable information available to me regarding the relationship of actual signal levels, measured in dBmV or dBm, and the numbers that a randomly chosen consumer DTV tuner produces. Conclusions that people arrive at regarding the relationship between signal processing reliability and input signal strength based on observations of the performance of, and primitive metering ability of, one residential DTV receiver are unreliable as a basis for either interpreting what is happening within one's own system or predicting what results others may have in attempting to managing their own unique situations.


----------



## johnsojs

Just want to see if anyone can help me with this. I need an antenna mast, like a 50 ft or so, and I can't seem to find one. Does anyone know where a good place to order one is?


----------



## DougRuss




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnsojs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just want to see if anyone can help me with this. I need an antenna mast, like a 50 ft or so, and I can't seem to find one. Does anyone know where a good place to order one is?



Your looking for a Tower:

http://www.solidsignal.com/cat_displ...tenna%20Towers


----------



## Keenan

He might be thinking of something like these, I just picked this site at random, there may be better prices elsewhere. I tried one of these awhile back and it's a nightmare to setup.

http://www.firstmilewireless.com/prod_tele-mast.html 

Telescoping Masts


----------



## milehighmike

Channel Master makes masts in 30, 40 and 50 foot lengths. Lowes carries the 30 footer, model 1830. It's under $50 but does require guy wires. I'm sure the 50 footer is more expensive, but I don't think it'll cost hundreds of $'s like the items in the above two posts.


----------



## geogecko

Thanks AAM. That little spheal brings me back to the days of DSP and Communications classes, not much of which I remember, since I'm not working in the field.


So, if I understand correctly, I assume that OTA signals will all be at different power levels, partly because each tower is a different distance from the others, partly because they transmit at different power levels, and probably other effects, depending on what frequency they are Txing.


Which is why I get different signal levels on different channels. So, I guess it's a big compromise, for most of us home users, since we don't have thousands of dollars to spend on a setup that would allow us to filter (or, rather equalize) each channel independently of the others.


So, basically what I think I'm hearing, is that just by using this preamplifier, I may help one channel, but hinder another, if it ends up overdriving the Rx'er.


Is there ever a point where the amplifier will be saturated at a particular frequency, thus keeping it from providing any more gain to that one frequency, but allowing others to be boosted? Or does that one saturation keep the others from being boosted at all? Man, it's been a long time...in the digital world.


It would be nice to have a spectrum analyzer to see what is really going on, but I don't happen to have one of those around the house. That is one thing I didn't understand about the FusionHDTV utility. It displays power levels in dB, but dB is a relative term, is it not? dB/V or dBm would make more since. I never thought about using it as just a power meter, but you're right, it's a relatively inexpensive way to measure signal strength.


I tried to look up the specs on the LG tuner in the Fusion cards, but couldn't find it. I was trying to find out what the max input level is supposed to be.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnsojs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Just want to see if anyone can help me with this. I need an antenna mast, like a 50 ft or so, and I can't seem to find one. Does anyone know where a good place to order one is?



The seller in Keenan's link charges a minimum of $250 for freight. I bought a 40 footer from my local Channel Master distributor that he had in stock and paid no freight. I'm pretty sure I paid less than a hundred bucks for it, but I don't remember for sure.


I think that Channel Master sends its truck out once a month, and I don't think their distributors are charged freight on those monthly deliveries.


----------



## sjso395




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I bought a 40 footer from my local Channel Master distributor that he had in stock and paid no freight. .



What type of base are you all using on these telescoping mast? I am looking at a 30 ft telescoping mast that my local CM dealer has in stock.


----------



## hdtvluvr

I have a 50 ft. unit that I am only going to extend to about 40 ft. My plans are to place about 2 ft. in the ground and attach the mast to the eave of my 2 story house. This way, about 15 ft. will be above the roof line. My plans are not to use any quy wires. Of course, the last section will actually be 2 pieces of pipe (one inside the other) since I won't be going the full 50 ft. I'm going to install a Wingard HD-7084 antenna.


The 50 footer was about $125.


----------



## hdtvluvr

Thanks for the idea and photos. However, I purchased the items several months ago - just waiting to get back to this project.


My original plan was to do almost all of it on the ground (patio) and raise the sections. I really don't like ladders and roofs and wanted to minimize my time on either. Then while I was working on another project that required trenching, I realized that I could use the upper part of the trench for PVC containing the RG6, etc. and actually locate the antenna off the patio. This put the project on hold until all of the other work was done.


I hope to have the antenna up within the next 2 months.


----------



## sebenste




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BoB-O TiVo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey all,
> 
> 
> I just put a RS VU-90 XR in my attic. VHF looks great. Analog UHF looks great. Digital channels are another question; I can't lock most channels. I live in Redmond, WA (suburb of Seattle) and am 15 miles away from the transmitters I want to receive. My D* receiver tells me that I'm getting a ~15 signal on the major networks. The question is, will an amplifier help? I have a 50ft run from the attic to the wiring closet and then point-to-point runs to each room.
> 
> 
> If an amp isn't the way to go, can somebody suggest a good combo antenna (CM 3018?) or a good antenna 'system' (antennas, combiners, amps, etc.) to get VHF (for my guest bedrooms) and good digital UHF?
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> BoB



Hi Bob,


Well, 50' of RG-6 won't cause much damage to the signal...but splitting the signal 3 or 4 ways certainly will. A VU-90 should be good enough with a good amp,

especially if you are getting non-"ghosting" pictures on the analog.


Before you do that, see if the analog and digital stations are all on the same towers. Many times they are, but sometimes they are built a considerably different direction than the analog. In Chicago, WJYS-TV 62's tower is just off

I-80, but their DTV tower is on Sears.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Good News: Samsung announced a new OTA STB will be available "this fall":
> http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6354840.html
> 
> Which begs the question as to which of their HDTVs include new chips, and whether from Samsung, LG or ATI....



I'm waiting on this one, personally, as the Canadian tests of the Samsung showed it to be dramatically better with weak signals, to within just a few dB of the noise floor. Now they just need to integrate a hard drive and a few DVR features and they could make a mint.


----------



## BoB-O TiVo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sebenste* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi Bob,
> 
> 
> Well, 50' of RG-6 won't cause much damage to the signal...but splitting the signal 3 or 4 ways certainly will. A VU-90 should be good enough with a good amp,
> 
> especially if you are getting non-"ghosting" pictures on the analog.
> 
> 
> Before you do that, see if the analog and digital stations are all on the same towers. Many times they are, but sometimes they are built a considerably different direction than the analog. In Chicago, WJYS-TV 62's tower is just off
> 
> I-80, but their DTV tower is on Sears.



Thanks for the input. Yesterday, I tried going to Home Despot and getting an amp (10dB - 25dB). At anything over about 15dB, I was getting very visible ghosting on the analog channels. I backed it off until that went away, then looked at digital. I was now getting about 60 on the D* signal meter. I went up in the attic and turned the antenna. It's now pointing significantly off the heading that it should be at, but I'm getting mid 80s on the signal meter now. I think I'm getting a reflection off my neighbor's roof. Oh well, as long as I have a good picture (and I do), I'm happy.


Thanks to all for this great thread!

BoB


----------



## rgathright

Has anyone used this antenna mast? It will be for a CM 4228.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=DS-3000


----------



## geogecko




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> To keep the situation simple since you do not have access to instumentation.
> 
> 
> At the site I determine the distance to towers , take into account other signals in the area (fm, etc), the gain of the antenna , the length of coax, number of signal splits, long and short runs, etc.
> 
> 
> I basically use 4 preamps and a couple distribution amps: fixed, variable, and some commercial qualitity with variable gain contol for vhf and uhf. I use splitters not amplified splitters.
> 
> 
> Cm7777, winegard ap8275 for 35+ miles
> 
> ap8700 for the mid range 25-35 miles
> 
> Winegard hdp269 for the suburbs less than 30 or so miles
> 
> 
> I select a preamp based on distance...If the preamp overloads, shows co channel or adjacent channel interference, I then go to the next one down in gain . If all preamps overload the next step is distribution amps of various gain (as mentioned above.) I avoid attenuation to tame overload by selecting the proper amp for the situation.
> 
> 
> Lately have been using the winegard hdp269 preamp at the antenna with splitters in place of the distribution amps with splitters. If I get a little overload I install it outside at the grounding block in stead of the antenna.
> 
> 
> If I want to get fancy, if I have all day to screw around, and the customer wants to pay me fot the time, I will give it the spectrum analyzer treatment.



Well, hopefully the CM-7777 will work for what I need. If not, I went ahead and got a CM-3042 distribution amplifier to place just before the 2-way splitter. Hopefully, one of these two methods (or possibly both combined), will help my situation.


----------



## JamesF in NK

I am trying to tune my Panasonic TH-42PX60U plasma to receive two HD OTA channels since live in one of many areas where CBS HD and FOX HD are not available to cable customers due to a rights fee dispute between my cable provider, COX and the joint owners of the our local CBS and FOX stations.


Not quite sure how to phrase this question - but here goes. How strong must the OTA digital signal be for the build in tuner to work? In other words, I can tune the analog channel, 12 for example, perfectly. However, the digital channel is "Not Available". I guess that means that the digital signal is not as strong or something. Is there a comparison between analog strength and digital strength needed for an HDTV?


I know this all sounds very uneducated. But everyone keeps telling me I should be able to pick up the OTA HDTV stations I want (only 23 miles away) and I cannot even get a sniff.


----------



## ctdish

James,

I am in Mystic, CT. I receive both Ch 12 and Ch 64 with a small amount of snow. The digital WPRI is reliable about 90 percent of the time and WNAC-DT about 80 percent. You might have a set up problem, you need to set the digital tuner for over the air signals and do a scan. Then try tuning in channel 12 or channel 13. Sometimes WPRI's remapping doesn't seem to work. Also if you see ghosts in the analog signal it may be difficult to get the digital signal. A rotator here was a necessity and will make reception a lot easier in many locations. What antenna set up are you using? John


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JamesF in NK* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Not quite sure how to phrase this question - but here goes. How strong must the OTA digital signal be for the build in tuner to work? In other words, I can tune the analog channel, 12 for example, perfectly. However, the digital channel is "Not Available"



Here's some pictures for comparison purposes: http://www.geocities.com/figbert/8vsb.html 


However, you say you get analog channel 12 perfectly. It is likely your digital stations are on UHF (actual channels 14 and above.) Comparing reception of channel 12 to channel 14 is apples to oranges. You need to compare reception of analog UHF stations to the digital ones you want to receive.


----------



## ctdish

WPRI-DT is on channel 13 and uses the same xmit antenna as channel 12 so in this case a comparison is pretty valid. John


----------



## houselog442

I think I have finally got my OTA set up figured out pretty good. I live about 17 miles from the towers in the tallahassee market. I have really tall trees in the yard so multi-path interference can be a problem. I use zenith silver sensor hooked to a small 12 db amp i got from walmart. I also have a standard pair of rabbit ears I bought at Radio Shack and is laid on my big curtain bar with the rabbit ears laid out completely horizontally (like an antenna element). This is done to pick up WTWC-DT which is NBC HD on channel 2. Both of the antennas are then hooked to a special combiner than combines one low VHF signal and one UHF signal. I use this special combiner (which i got at Radio Shack part# 15-2586) to combine the signals from both anteannas while at the same time, filter out the signals they both pick up but aren't supposed to because I found a standard combiner will cause those signals to interfere with each other and make it impossible to pick up the channel. This is especially true with channel 2. The setup works well, I get CBS and ABC with the silver sensor (and soon FOX as well), while the rabbitt ears gets NBC. The only thing that still interferes with the low vhf station is when lightning is in the area it will momentarily mess up the signal. Other than that, it works well.


----------



## rgathright




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> the mount is not suggested for the cm4228.
> 
> 
> the cm 4228 is rather bulky and offers alot of wind load.



Any recommendations for something similiar? I do not want to go through my new roof and need it to be not very noticible.


----------



## legolad

Hey folks,


I'm in the midst of re-working my RF distro to include an ATSC OTA antenna feed.


I'd like to know if you think my plan will work.


MY EQUIPMENT

2 door cameras with built-in modulators (channels 8 - 125).


1 modulator (7-69) that I use for distributing my AV Receiver's output to the smaller TVs in the house.


1 ChannelVision 3x8 Coax distro panel with bi-directional IR support


1 OTA antenna


2 4x1 splitters


MY FLOW

Right now the OTA antenna feeds the 2 splitters which, in turn, feed the off-air tuners in several Satellite receivers.


The DoorCams and Modulator feed into a 3x1 splitter (using it in reverse) and then into the 3x8 distro panel.


This lets me get my doorcams and AV receiver anywhere in the house.


MY NEW PLAN

I had this thought that I could combine the doorcams, the modulator, and the ATSC feed into one cable and run that to 3x8 distro panel. I thought this might allow me to get pass-through of the analog doorcam signals on my satellite receivers. Then it occurred to me that the tuners on the sat receiver are ATSC only...so the only real benefit is that I can distribute the same coax signal everywhere and let the end device (TV, Sat Tuner, whatever) decide how to use it.


MY QUESTIONS

I did a dry run of this and lost most of the ATSC signals. Of course, I didn't bother to change the current doorcam channels (15 and 20). The results were pretty nasty. Lost most if not all of my OTA channels. The splitter was the same one I had been using which is old and doesn't even have a frequency range specified on it.


1. What's the best tool for combining these signals?

2. Will a simple 4-way splitter/combiner with 1GHz range be okay?

3. Is the 7dB insertion loss a big deal?

4. Do you have any other tips or suggestions for making locally modulated NTSC signals play nice with a live OTA ATSC feed?


Thanks in advance!


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *legolad* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> MY QUESTIONS
> 
> 1. What's the best tool for combining these signals?
> 
> 2. Will a simple 4-way splitter/combiner with 1GHz range be okay?
> 
> 3. Is the 7dB insertion loss a big deal?
> 
> 4. Do you have any other tips or suggestions for making locally modulated NTSC signals play nice with a live OTA ATSC feed?



I have something similar, and I don't have any problems. My 1st thought would be to make sure that the OTA signals are amplified prior to using a 4-way splitter. I have a 3 channel and 2 single channel modulators and an OTA feeding into a CV 3 x 12(actually it's now a 3 x 16) distribution panel, and all works fine. I do use channels in the 60's for my modulators to keep them away from the OTA. So that could be a problem for you. And, of course, all of the modulators send out an amplified signal, and I do have a preamp on my OTA. So, all signals going in are amplified.

....jc


----------



## SEMIJim




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rgathright* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Any recommendations for something similiar?



The problem is not the mast (pipe) itself, it's the small footprint of its attachment to the roof (or whatever). Ever stuck your arm out the window of a car going 60 MPH or more? Now imagine something the size of a CM 4228 in your hand and imagine the force. All that force ends up exerted on the point at which the mast is mounted.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rgathright* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I do not want to go through my new roof and need it to be not very noticible.



I can understand your reluctance, but going through the roof isn't a big deal. You just have to do it right and make sure it's all sealed-up well. (And get up there and re-check it from time-to-time, like I have to do with the poorly-installed electrical service entrance I have that's due for a re-sealing.)


That CM 4228 is pretty big. I don't know as I'd want the wind load it looks like that thing could generate even on my heavy-duty chimney mount.


----------



## rgathright




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SEMIJim* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The problem is not the mast (pipe) itself, it's the small footprint of its attachment to the roof (or whatever). Ever stuck your arm out the window of a car going 60 MPH or more? Now imagine something the size of a CM 4228 in your hand and imagine the force. All that force ends up exerted on the point at which the mast is mounted.
> 
> 
> I can understand your reluctance, but going through the roof isn't a big deal. You just have to do it right and make sure it's all sealed-up well. (And get up there and re-check it from time-to-time, like I have to do with the poorly-installed electrical service entrance I have that's due for a re-sealing.)
> 
> 
> That CM 4228 is pretty big. I don't know as I'd want the wind load it looks like that thing could generate even on my heavy-duty chimney mount.



How would something like this work?


http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=RON3442


----------



## SEMIJim




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rgathright* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How would something like this work?
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=RON3442



It'll certainly be much stronger than the other thing. Whether it'll hold up or not I'd hesitate to say. It'll be a weakest link situation: If the bolts are big enough and the eve is strong enough, or, looked at the other way, if the wind load doesn't exceed the strength of either one...


Personally, I think a tri-pod, with the bolts backed by 2x4's or 2x6's, top and bottom (to distribute the force at the attachment points), best for a large antenna. A tri-pod has an additional advantage: If ever you don't need it anymore, it's trivially easy to take away the tri-pod and cover the holes. Big holes drilled into the eves, on the other hand...


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rgathright* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How would something like this work?
> 
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=RON3442



I've used them. It is generally suitable, but its weakenesses are that you can't get much vertical distance betwen the two parts if the roof is not steep, which gives the mast a lot of leverage. I like to keep my wallmounts three or four feet apart if I am using 15 fet of mast (at 10' and a 5' section), which will put the antenna about ten feet above the peak.


The only other vulnerability of that mount is that the face board it attaches to is sometimes not structuraly sound. But I've never had such a mount fail.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JamesF in NK* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am trying to tune my Panasonic TH-42PX60U plasma to receive two HD OTA channels since live in one of many areas where CBS HD and FOX HD are not available to cable customers due to a rights fee dispute between my cable provider, COX and the joint owners of the our local CBS and FOX stations.
> 
> 
> Not quite sure how to phrase this question - but here goes. How strong must the OTA digital signal be for the build in tuner to work? In other words, I can tune the analog channel, 12 for example, perfectly. However, the digital channel is "Not Available". I guess that means that the digital signal is not as strong or something. Is there a comparison between analog strength and digital strength needed for an HDTV?
> 
> 
> I know this all sounds very uneducated. But everyone keeps telling me I should be able to pick up the OTA HDTV stations I want (only 23 miles away) and I cannot even get a sniff.



Digital stations are usually on UHF freqs, whereas CH12 is VHF--which makes a big difference in propagation/cable loss characteristics, big difference in loss through building materials and each requires an appropriate antenna.


Q1: What antenna are you using?

Q2: Is it indoors, attic mount or roof top? (indoor probably won't cut it for UHF)

Q3: What direction(s) is it pointed? (did you check www.antennaweb.org yet?)

Q4: What obstacles are between it and desired stations? (trees, buildings, hills)

Q5: How is the antenna wired to your HDTV? (twin-lead or coax? how many RF splitters?

Q6: Where are you located (at least zipcode, preferably to nearby cross streets)

www.antennaweb.org should give you a general idea on how well each station should be received and which general type of antenna/preamp is recommended.


----------



## ctdish

He seems to live in the 02852 -02854 zip code region. The CBS digital is channel 13 and the FOX digital is channel 54. Probably half of the path between his location and the xmitters is over water. Unless he is right behind a hill, rabbit ears can likely get CBS. John


----------



## JamesF in NK

Thanks to CTDISH and HOLL_ANDS for your input. Here's an update of my status which is instructional for newbies - this is, frankly, somewhat embarrasing.










I have had a Panasonic 42PX60U (built in tuner) for only one week (love it). I originally could not get any digital channels, only analog when I connected an OTA antenna. What I did wrong initially is NOT let the TV scan for channels. For example, I thought that what I had to do to view WPRI HD channel 12.1 was enter 12-1 on my remote and hit OK. But the TV does not seem to know what that is until it first scans and finds that channel first (because the frequency assignment is something different) - as you have pointed out. That sounds silly on my part, but this technique is not addressed in the owner's manual. Once I tried to let the TV scan for ALL channels, it "married up" or found the digital channels just fine. Now it knows what 12.1 is, for example.


This is an exercise that's not real obvious to new owners like myself (this is my first non-analog TV in owning TVs for 40 years). Going a step farther, there were some HD channels that were clearly within range of me that I did not get at first - notably FOX HD. I adjusted the antenna alignment towards the transmitter and re-scanned (i.e. let the TV re-find channels) and, bingo, got the channels I wanted.


I am using a "Terk HDTVo" amplfied antenna (an impatient, Best Buy off-the--shelf purchase), attic mounted (until I can get the hardware assembled to get it mounted outside). I live 45 feet about sea level with the antenna, in the attic, 25 feet about ground - 40' RG6U unspliced, unsplit run to a small amplifier just before the TV. CBS HD 12.1 rock solid, FOX 64.1 is shaky in the daytime, OK at night. Sight line to transmitter through dense collection of oak trees.


----------



## ctdish

James,

Welcome to the world of remapping. Don't feel bad about the initial glitch. Everyone I know around here, when they first receive digital signals thinks renaming the channel number is stupid. I got my first digital receiver in 2000 and the first channel I received for any lenght of time was CBS from NY. I spent 10 or 15 min. turning the the VHF antenna rotator to try to peak it, befor going to the internet to look up the actual channel of 56.

John


----------



## Porsche576

Are amplified antennas beter than ones that rn't ?Thanks


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JamesF in NK* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks to CTDISH and HOLL_ANDS for your input. Here's an update of my status which is instructional for newbies - this is, frankly, somewhat embarrasing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have had a Panasonic 42PX60U (built in tuner) for only one week (love it). I originally could not get any digital channels, only analog when I connected an OTA antenna. What I did wrong initially is NOT let the TV scan for channels. For example, I thought that what I had to do to view WPRI HD channel 12.1 was enter 12-1 on my remote and hit OK. But the TV does not seem to know what that is until it first scans and finds that channel first (because the frequency assignment is something different) - as you have pointed out. That sounds silly on my part, but this technique is not addressed in the owner's manual. Once I tried to let the TV scan for ALL channels, it "married up" or found the digital channels just fine. Now it knows what 12.1 is, for example.



I wouldn't blame the Panasonic Operating Instructions. Page 13 is clearly labeled (in huge font) "FIRST TIME SETUP"..."Turn TV Power On, "Select Your Language", "Adjust the Clock" and finally "Auto Channel Setup".


I would blame whomever thought up the problematic virtual channel remapping scheme that nearly EVERYONE has problems with...


And maybe a little impatience....you were very close....

If you had entered the REAL CH13.1 (vice VIRTUAL 12.1) DTV channel number, the HDTV would have found WPRI-DT, decoded the PSIP to find the virtual channel numbers and would then probably replace the REAL channel number with the VIRTUAL channel number.


So did you get everything you wanted to receive???


----------



## greywolf

It depends on how far from the source you are. I consider amplification a last resort for long distance attempts as amps both add noise and amplify already present noise. For outlying areas though, they can be a godsend.


----------



## NightHawk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Porsche576* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are amplified antennas beter than ones that rn't ?Thanks



It depends also on the type and quality of the amplifier and receiver. For long distance reception and/or reception of low-powered transmitters, _system_ noise figure becomes important. If the pre-amp or amplified antenna has a better (lower) noise figure than your receiver does, there is a net increase in system signal-to-noise ratio. Most pre-amps have a significantly better noise figure than most DTV receivers.


If however the stations are close and/or strong, noise figure is unimportant and the pre-amp will be a disadvantage. The additional gain will decrease dynamic range and linearly increase the probability of saturation (overload).


----------



## JamesF in NK




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So did you get everything you wanted to receive???



After some very sweaty time in the attic and some trial and error rescanning, we're in business. Thanks.


----------



## christo76

Looking for some help deciding on an antenna. I will be getting my new TV (first HD) in a few days.


Used antennaweb to try to figure out antenna, but it seems a bit odd because nearly all the stations are in the exact same direction and distance, labeled as "Yellow" for antenna, but then 1 will be green, another red. All these are 16.9 miles away at 46 degrees. I also have one station, FOX, that is labeled as "Blue" even though its 17.8 miles away at 69 degrees.


My house in on a hill, there is one large willow tree east of me that is just taller then my roof. I have directv with a 3x4 splitter that I was going to have the antenna feed into, then use diplexers at each tv (will be 2 eventually).


Is there an indoor/attic antenna that would be best? Do I need a "blue" medium directional antenna with pre-amp to get an 18mile away signal?


I also have an old antenna, on a mast about 20ft above the roof, but its 40 years old and the wire was cut. Would I be best to climb the mast, open it up and attach a twinlead, or balun then RG6? Its not a big antenna, looks sort of like a winegard HD7210P.


Any help would be appreciated,

thanks

chris


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *christo76* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> nearly all the stations are in the exact same direction and distance, labeled as "Yellow" for antenna, but then 1 will be green, another red. All these are 16.9 miles away at 46 degrees.



Even when transmitting from the same location, reception can depend on transmitter power level and on frequency (channel number).



> Quote:
> I also have one station, FOX, that is labeled as "Blue" even though its 17.8 miles away at 69 degrees.



It must be either at a very low power level, or "hidden" from your location by a mountain or something.[/quote]


----------



## geogecko

I was told that if using an antenna in your attic, versus outside, then you should derate the distance that an antenna can "reach" by half. In other words, if the antenna is good for up to 70 miles, then it's ~35 miles in your attic.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geogecko* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was told that if using an antenna in your attic, versus outside, then you should derate the distance that an antenna can "reach" by half. In other words, if the antenna is good for up to 70 miles, then it's ~35 miles in your attic.



UHF Attic loss has been measured to be about 13 dB +/- 6 dB...and Bob Chase measured about 20 dB in his attic.


The difference between a "70-mile" and a "35-mile" antenna is probably on the order of just a few dB.


Yes, it helps to have a more powerful antenna (and maybe a Preamp) for an attic antenna....


But, don't believe this "rule of thumb"....


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Even when transmitting from the same location, reception can depend on transmitter power level and on frequency (channel number).
> 
> 
> It must be either at a very low power level, or "hidden" from your location by a mountain or something.



Note that antennaweb.org also calculates co-channel and adjacent channel interference. There may be a nearby station that is either on the same channel or an adjacent channel that will limit how far away some channels are received.

The transmit antenna patterns can also be different in both azimuthal and elevation coverages.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *christo76* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Looking for some help deciding on an antenna. I will be getting my new TV (first HD) in a few days.
> 
> 
> Used antennaweb to try to figure out antenna, but it seems a bit odd because nearly all the stations are in the exact same direction and distance, labeled as "Yellow" for antenna, but then 1 will be green, another red. All these are 16.9 miles away at 46 degrees. I also have one station, FOX, that is labeled as "Blue" even though its 17.8 miles away at 69 degrees.
> 
> 
> My house in on a hill, there is one large willow tree east of me that is just taller then my roof. I have directv with a 3x4 splitter that I was going to have the antenna feed into, then use diplexers at each tv (will be 2 eventually).
> 
> 
> Is there an indoor/attic antenna that would be best? Do I need a "blue" medium directional antenna with pre-amp to get an 18mile away signal?
> 
> 
> I also have an old antenna, on a mast about 20ft above the roof, but its 40 years old and the wire was cut. Would I be best to climb the mast, open it up and attach a twinlead, or balun then RG6? Its not a big antenna, looks sort of like a winegard HD7210P.
> 
> 
> Any help would be appreciated,
> 
> thanks
> 
> chris



You didn't say where you were located (at least zipcode, preferably nearby cross streets).


----------



## firemantom26

I need some help. Looking to purchace a VHF antenna and wanted to know what is the best available to get. I need it for only VHF not UHF.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *firemantom26* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I need some help. Looking to purchace a VHF antenna and wanted to know what is the best available to get. I need it for only VHF not UHF.



Here's one choice: http://www.starkelectronic.com/wnpr5030.htm 


You might get slightly better results by buying an HD8200P and using a CM#0549 to combine it with whatever you're using for UHF.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you had entered the REAL CH13.1 (vice VIRTUAL 12.1) DTV channel number, the HDTV would have found WPRI-DT, decoded the PSIP to find the virtual channel numbers and would then probably replace the REAL channel number with the VIRTUAL channel number.



Many tuners won't do this and I know my Panny 50U won't. Neither will the 4th gen LG. Most won't in my experience. The only tuner I've had that will do this consistently is the LG LST 3510-A (3rd gen LG). Even after a channel scan is done often you can't access by the actual channel with most I've used (must use the virtual).


The 4th gen LG has a "manual channel add" that will allow it but it requires accessing a submenu, you can't simply enter the channel directly. Some won't even allow manual channel adding at all.


I think it stinks to design it this way.


----------



## greywolf

I've only used DirecTV OTA digital tuners and the ones I had do it as well as others I've read about. It's good to know not all tuners do.


----------



## Roly935

Terk TV32 for $80 at circuit city


works pretty good considering it's in my attic, but with poor reception of WPLG (signal strength of 62) and can't lock in WSVN (signal strength of 42). all other channels work perfectly.


I know that attic mounted antenna isn't the best for reception, but my association frowns upon it. Will a simple signal booster help me out or am I doomed?


btw... I'm about 30miles out from the farm


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greywolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've only used DirecTV OTA digital tuners and the ones I had do it as well as others I've read about. It's good to know not all tuners do.



I have both the HTL-HD and the H10 and neither allow direct access via the actual channel number. The H10 won't allow manual addition of channels at all. You have to enter alternate zip codes on the H10 to get it to save channels at more than one bearing. I'm not sure about the H20. Which D* receivers are you referring to?


----------



## FreeBaGeL

I also need some help selecting an antenna. I've been looking for a quality indoor OTA antenna to pick up my local OTA HD stations. I've done quite a bit of searching and reading and it seems like the Zenith Silver Sensor ZHDTV has gotten great reviews and is nice and small so won't look bad in the living room. However, all the posts and reviews I've read about it are from early 2004 so I'm not sure if things have changed and there are better options out there nowadays. I also noticed it doesn't have an amplifier, which many modern antennas boast about. Does this matter?


I am located in central Florida (zip 32607). The channels I am trying to pick up are all yellow-uhf on antennaweb. They are 5.3, 6.7, 11.0, and 19.3 miles away respectively. There are no tall buildings in between but there are lots and lots of trees.


Is the Silver Sensor a good selection in my case? TIA.


----------



## christo76




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You didn't say where you were located (at least zipcode, preferably nearby cross streets).



Sorry... around 1300 east roberta ave, 53186.


The street is a pretty steep hill. I tried entering 1300 e. roberta and it drops the blue channels to red. I didn't know if antenna web would use street level then add 10 ft for single story and 20ft for mulitple story. If so then using 1300 should get a more correct elevation, as it is further up the hill, and my house sits 10-15 above street, putting the attic above 35-40 above street and the old tower about 55-60 ft above street.


Though I don't know how to change the antenna on the tower, its old, steel, and has no pivots on the bottom, just straight into concrete. I will try climbing up to it this weekend with a ladder to see if I can rewire it, though it has a couple foot-long metal pieces that seem to have fallen off.


chris


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The 4th gen LG has a "manual channel add" that will allow it but it requires accessing a submenu, you can't simply enter the channel directly. Some won't even allow manual channel adding at all.
> 
> 
> I think it stinks to design it this way.



And, of course, it won't add a channel that it doesn't 'find'. What sucks, is without a channel being 'added', you can't view the 'signal strength'. Which means that you can't view the strength while you are trying to tune the antenna, if you couldn't successfully add the channel. Faulty logic.

....jc


----------



## jtbell

For best results with antennaweb.org, have it display the street level map, then zoom in on your neighborhood and re-center the map on your actual location if necessary. When I enter my address, the location comes up a few hundred yards off, giving predictions that are somewhat different after I adjust the location.


----------



## PGDave

Several months ago, someone here commented that a parabolic dish antenna would provide the best gain

for fringe-area reception. I'm 84 miles from my most-watched stations.


I was intrigued by this idea and since I have 10.5' satellite dish that I rarely use anymore, I thought

I would try to make a parabolic terrestial antenna.


After tilting the dish to an upright position, I removed the feedhorn and replaced it with the back 1/3

of an XG-91 UHF antenna coupled with a Winegard 8275 preamp.


It worked like a champ and provides a much better signal than a stand-alone XG-91. It is much more

directional so its off-axis performance is worse than the XG-91. I also made a dipole for high VHF from

a couple of strips of aluminum and wired it into the XG-91 box with twinlead. I now get a perfect reception on VHF channels 7 and

above.


To see the attached photos, please click on the links below:


----------



## christo76




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For best results with antennaweb.org, have it display the street level map, then zoom in on your neighborhood and re-center the map on your actual location if necessary. When I enter my address, the location comes up a few hundred yards off, giving predictions that are somewhat different after I adjust the location.




Wow, didn't know I could move it on there... thanks alot. With that I come up with Red for the furthest stations.


Is there a preferred antenna for RED... medium directional? Is there one that could be easily mounted to the side of my existing tower?


Chris


----------



## SEMIJim




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> And, of course, it won't add a channel that it doesn't 'find'. What sucks, is without a channel being 'added', you can't view the 'signal strength'. Which means that you can't view the strength while you are trying to tune the antenna, if you couldn't successfully add the channel. Faulty logic.
> 
> ....jc



Well, digital channels aren't really where the TV says they are, anyway. Even if they were: Signal "strength" meters aren't really signal strength meters, they're more signal quality meters. On analog, strength usually equates with quality, so it mostly works out. Digital is a whole different beast. I don't know as you could actually do the "turn the antenna and watch the meter" kind of a thing with digital.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SEMIJim* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, digital channels aren't really where the TV says they are, anyway. Even if they were: Signal "strength" meters aren't really signal strength meters, they're more signal quality meters. On analog, strength usually equates with quality, so it mostly works out. Digital is a whole different beast. I don't know as you could actually do the "turn the antenna and watch the meter" kind of a thing with digital.



I do it all the time. I have a Zenith HDR230 and a Zenith TV, both with fourth-generation chipsets. I tune to the real channel (e.g. 35-1 instead of the virtual 11-1 for KARE-DT in Minneapolis) and then bring up the signal meter. Then I spin the antenna until I get the best signal on the meter. It actually registers on the meter long before it gets a lock which implies a calculated net "signal strength" - a combination of signal quality and actual dBmv.


If I were to design a meter for a STB, I'd actually make it a two-stage meter. When there was no digital lock, I'd want it to display dB. Once there was a digital lock, I'd want it to display error rates only. That way, for finding a weak signal, I could get as close as I could, but once I locked, I could emphasize signal quality - by trying to find the peak correct data location.


----------



## SEMIJim




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I do it all the time.



Fascinating. Y'learn something new every day.


----------



## KeithAR2002

sregener,


I noticed in the link you posted above, that you installed a 55 foot tower. About how much does that cost? I've got a CM 4228, along with a RS VU-190 for VHF channels, both connected to a 7777 preamp. I live a good 70 miles from the nearest "Big 4" digital transmitters. The CBS affiliate for my market is probably around 75 miles, and they broadcast on RF 7 for digital. I really have had more luck with the 4228 in receiving that (a few times, on good nights) than I have with the 190. I've barely locked on to it once, and it was very pixelated. According to the coverage map for KNOE-DT , I am right outside the coverage area. I would love to get a tower, but would like to try everything else possible, before doing so. I have both antennas about 25 feet off the ground (10 feet above roofline). I also can receive KTBS-DT - ABC out of Shreveport on occasion, although I am right out of the coverage area . It seems my strongest digital is KMSS, the FOX affiliate from Shreveport, I get them after 6:30 PM every evening..and I am definitely outside their coverage area .


What do you reccomend I do about my situation? I realize I live far out, but you seemed to at least have some luck, even before your tower installation.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Many tuners won't do this and I know my Panny 50U won't. Neither will the 4th gen LG. Most won't in my experience. The only tuner I've had that will do this consistently is the LG LST 3510-A (3rd gen LG). Even after a channel scan is done often you can't access by the actual channel with most I've used (must use the virtual).
> 
> 
> The 4th gen LG has a "manual channel add" that will allow it but it requires accessing a submenu, you can't simply enter the channel directly. Some won't even allow manual channel adding at all.
> 
> 
> I think it stinks to design it this way.



Either prior to or after making a channel scan, my son's Sony GrandWega (in L.A.) and my Sylvania 6900DTE OTA STB (in San Diego) will still accept a tuning command for the REAL channel and will replace it with the VIRTUAL channel number, except for those few stations where the PSIP doesn't makes "sense".


----------



## cpcat

Could be I'm biased by the cheaper designs in the D* receivers. I also tried the Walmart USDigital box and it didn't allow direct real/actual channel access either as I recall.


----------



## KeithAR2002

The ProBrand 3150 Plus at Circuit City allows direct channel access, along with a one-touch signal meter. You can then choose to add the channel by simply pushing a button on the remote. All in all, I love mine, though the signal meter will sometimes stick on 49% when the signal is actually just below the threshold to lock.


----------



## geogecko

Rick.


Do you think this antenna selection is good enough for my situation? I've already got the antenna installed, in my attic, but am not getting very good reception for a couple of the channels.

http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB8_HD_Antenna.html 


My location is 4200 Blue Grass Court 75028.


I've recentered the map to look like this:











I have 50 feet of their RG6 cable between the antenna and the wall plate in my living room, then about another 10 feet of coax from there to my tuner. My house is single story, with a high pitch roof.


I'm mainly interested in the yellow and green channels, but realize that ABC is VHF, which I cannot receive with my current antenna (would be nice).


Fox is the one I'm having the hardest time with. Getting stuttering and pixelation on that channel. I don't know if it's my reception, or something to do with the way they are broadcasting the signal (do they ever change power levels during the day?).


I've tried using the CM-7777 with no luck. Signal level, strangely enough, stayed exactly the same level, with or without the pre-amp. (At least, for Fox, anyway.)


Fox shows a signal level of about 80 to 90% strength, or about 22-23dB.


Thanks for any assistance. If you would recommend another antenna, which would you recommend (would prefer one in my attic, versus outside the home).


What do you think of those square antennas, that look more like a patch antenna, similar in size to a Direct TV dish? I could see mounting one of those outside my house, but the coax length would be probably closer to 150-200 feet.

http://www.antennasdirect.com/lacrosse.html 
http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KeithAR2002* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I noticed in the link you posted above, that you installed a 55 foot tower. About how much does that cost?
> 
> 
> What do you reccomend I do about my situation? I realize I live far out, but you seemed to at least have some luck, even before your tower installation.



I don't know exactly what it cost. The antenna dealer was removing it for another customer and basically took it down on his property and put it up on mine. I traded up on the antenna, and he charged me $900 installed, $800 if I dug the hole myself (which I didn't.) I know new setups were going for about $1700 a few years back.


For an outdoor install for UHF, I'd get an AntennasDirect 91XG. If it doesn't get the signal, then almost nothing on the market will. If you want to do everything you can, there have been posts about a very low noise (like 0.5db) preamp available from Europe that runs about $150. For your VHF station, you might do best to get a Blonder-Tongue cut-to-channel antenna for channel 7. They're expensive, but there's nothing better. A cheaper alternative is the Winegard HD8200P or the almost as good YA-1713.


You don't say what kind of tuner you've got, but that can make all the difference in the world. The new Samsung chipset looks promising, but the LG 4th generation (and probably 5th as well) chipset is the best that's out there right now.


Hope this helps.


----------



## KeithAR2002

I've got an LG 32LC2D 32" HDTV with the built in tuner... I've noticed it's quite a bit more sensitive than other built in tuners. I also have the ProBrand 3150 Plus, which is pretty sensitive, also. I alternate between the two.


So the 91 XG is a better performer than the 4228? I got the 4228 due to all the positive reviews on the forum. I have been looking at purchasing the 91 XG, though.

I also looked at the Blonder Tounge. I would get one of those, but KNOE is switching back to their analog channel 8, once analog is shut down. I'm curious, would a CM 3020 be a better performer than the VU-190? I'm sure the Channel Master is a lot more durable.


Also, about the tower, what kind of places install and take down towers? There is one listing under antennas in the yellow pages, but it doesnt mention anything about what services they offer.


----------



## geogecko

Thanks Rick. That's interesting. Are you saying the results on antennaweb don't seem right, such as the antenna to use, or just the fact that they didn't have all the channels listed. I found it strange that I moved the location about 100 feet, and it changes the results of the stations that it lists...


I may get the DB-8 outside, and see if that improves anything, but that may be a bit difficult, until I get some extra coax.


In regards to the HD7082P, is there a recommended way to install these in an attic? The DB-8 was pretty easy, I just bought an attic mount (basically a pole on a bracket that I mounted to a vertical support in the attic, but these type of antennas look like that wouldn't work.


Maybe a pole mounted on the top of a wall? I've also heard of people using fishing line to string an antenna to rafters...


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KeithAR2002* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What do you reccomend I do about my situation? I realize I live far out, but you seemed to at least have some luck, even before your tower installation.



If you need channels 7-69 then first pic with DAT 75's on top. The XG 91's could substitute for the DAT 75's and provide equivalent performance.


If you need channels 7-40 or so then second pic with Triax Unix 100 Band A's on top.


The bottom VHF antennae are Antennacraft Y10 7-13's.


----------



## geogecko

Mainly asthetics. Our house is on a corner lot, on the inside, so the house is visable from basically all sides, except maybe the NE side. The only other thing, is that the installation gets more complicated. Having to find a way to bring the coax in, mounting a mast to the roof, and grounding the antenna. I'm not positive, but I'm also sure WAF would also not allow me to install it outside.


I've been doing some tests, using the Fusion signal checker software. I have both Fusion cards hooked up now, using one splitter.


I made measurements on every channel, and I'm seeing between 0-4dB loss from the last time I did this, with just one tuner, and no splitter.


Fox used to be one of the strongest stations, and still is, but I've got other stations with the same power level, that have no stuttering problems. (Interesting, that some appear to have gained power...probably due to my averaging...) I just watch the signal for a while, and then write down numbers that are in the middle of the highs and lows that I'm seeing.


One thing I don't understand exactly, is why the pre-amp does not help. Since I don't have any channels sitting at 100% or more, it leads me to believe the receiver is not being overdriven. Will a distribution amp help with this?


I think the next step, is to probably take the DB-8 outside, and see what happens. In the spreadsheet below, the highlighted yellow rows are the channels that I currently even care about having (well, except ABC).


----------



## KeithAR2002

Wow! That's a complex antenna system you've got. And it stays in place with just that roof eave mount? They must be stronger than I thought!


I was comparing the HD8200P and the CM 3671 earlier. The 3671 is 67.00 cheaper, I like the fact that one doesn't need a matching transformer with the HD8200P. How would these two compare with each other? I'm trying to be as effective and pennywise as possible, and I've probably gone over budget already


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geogecko* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Rick.
> 
> 
> Do you think this antenna selection is good enough for my situation? I've already got the antenna installed, in my attic, but am not getting very good reception for a couple of the channels.
> 
> http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB8_HD_Antenna.html
> 
> 
> My location is 4200 Blue Grass Court 75028.
> 
> 
> I've recentered the map to look like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have 50 feet of their RG6 cable between the antenna and the wall plate in my living room, then about another 10 feet of coax from there to my tuner. My house is single story, with a high pitch roof.
> 
> 
> I'm mainly interested in the yellow and green channels, but realize that ABC is VHF, which I cannot receive with my current antenna (would be nice).
> 
> 
> Fox is the one I'm having the hardest time with. Getting stuttering and pixelation on that channel. I don't know if it's my reception, or something to do with the way they are broadcasting the signal (do they ever change power levels during the day?).
> 
> 
> I've tried using the CM-7777 with no luck. Signal level, strangely enough, stayed exactly the same level, with or without the pre-amp. (At least, for Fox, anyway.)
> 
> 
> Fox shows a signal level of about 80 to 90% strength, or about 22-23dB.
> 
> 
> Thanks for any assistance. If you would recommend another antenna, which would you recommend (would prefer one in my attic, versus outside the home).
> 
> 
> What do you think of those square antennas, that look more like a patch antenna, similar in size to a Direct TV dish? I could see mounting one of those outside my house, but the coax length would be probably closer to 150-200 feet.
> 
> http://www.antennasdirect.com/lacrosse.html
> http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm



The SquareShooter has very little gain and is only intended for receiving nearby stations.

And we still haven't heard much about the LaCrosse on the antenna forum....


As far as "unobtrusive" outdoor antennas go, you might consider mounting a CM4228 on the ledger board....either above or below the rain gutters. Note that the CM4228 is one of the very few UHF antennas that provides useful gain for upper VHF CH7-13.


You have two stations 7 miles away and two 15 miles away--which means the CM7777 would be overloaded.

The W-G HDP-269 VHF/UHF Preamp is a much better choice to try where there are nearby stations.


----------



## TV Trey

Geogecko- Due to odd harmonics, many UHF antennas have very useful gain on certain high band VHF frequencies. The Televes 1044/X43 is a very good antenna that draws little attention to itself and has good gain at channel 9. The 4228 does well on high band VHF channels, however it is so ugly the only place to install it is the attic.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KeithAR2002* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So the 91 XG is a better performer than the 4228? I got the 4228 due to all the positive reviews on the forum. I have been looking at purchasing the 91 XG, though.
> 
> 
> I'm curious, would a CM 3020 be a better performer than the VU-190? I'm sure the Channel Master is a lot more durable.
> 
> 
> Also, about the tower, what kind of places install and take down towers? There is one listing under antennas in the yellow pages, but it doesnt mention anything about what services they offer.



For an outdoor install, I think the 91XG is better. But probably not a lot. However, if you're using it with a rotor, you need a rotor bearing or other support for the mast above the rotor.


Antennas of similar length perform about the same. You mentioned the 3671, and it's probably about the same as the HD8200P, though I haven't read any conclusive reviews.


Most antenna installers should do towers. If they don't, they should know who would.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KeithAR2002* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wow! That's a complex antenna system you've got. And it stays in place with just that roof eave mount? They must be stronger than I thought!
> 
> 
> :



No, it's a ground mount, see first pic below.


Re: thrust bearing. To avoid needing a guyed thrust bearing, you must keep the lever arm above the rotator as short as possible. See the second pic.


----------



## KeithAR2002

Someone reccommended I get a thrust bearing for my rotor, as I have the 4228 on it, and it is heavy. Where exactly can I get one?


Well today (since it's a bit cooler, not by much) I'm going to get another tripod, and move the VU-190 on to it, which will be a few feet away from the 4228. I wanted to get the two apart, as I thought it may be causing interference, and plus there is a good opening with not as many trees, where that location is. I moved my entire setup to the highest peak of my roof, which should have put the height at 25-27 feet, and it helps with reception from Shreveport. The down side is, I'm aiming the VHF antenna right into a big tree in the new location. That won't be the case if I can move it. If that doesn't prove very successful, then I guess it'll be time to invest in a 3671, and find a tower


----------



## goldrich

KeithAR2002,


Maybe you should try a quad-stack, like MAX HD's in Greensburg, IN.
http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...TowerAntennas/ This setup is very directional but also provides a lot of gain.


My antenna setup is very similar to cpcat. I've downloaded a picture of it. It's on a steel pipe mast with a hinged base so it can be lowered quite easily. It was designed by MAX HD, Greg. I'm 3-5 miles from the Indy antenna farm, but it also provides me an opportunity to DX other DTV stations. This setup works great for channels 7-69. Here's the description.............


Triax Unix 100-UHF(2- ant. hor. stacked) @ 30 ft. w/CM 7775 preamp; Antennacraft high band VHF @ 27 ft. w/Motorola Signal Booster.


Steve


----------



## KeithAR2002

Both of those setups look quite advanced...I'd probably have to find someone to do that kind of job... Yours isn't on a tower, so would having a setup like that be a better alternative to having a tower?


Also, really liked your DTV DX photos.... I've started a collection myself, but I've only logged stations in the 150-175 mile range.


----------



## KeithAR2002

Here is a couple photos of my current setup, in case anyone was interested. I don't like the idea of the 190 being on the same mast as the 4228, for sure...


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KeithAR2002* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Both of those setups look quite advanced...I'd probably have to find someone to do that kind of job... Yours isn't on a tower, so would having a setup like that be a better alternative to having a tower?
> 
> 
> .




Hard to answer that. A tower just really wasn't an option for me and additonally I live on a hill with no real obstructions around me. For me, a better antenna was probably more important.


If you have obstructions around you that you can get above with a tower that may be preferrable.


Re: the CM4228 on the rotator. It's a great antenna but it is heavy and hard on a rotator. Something like the xg91 would give you similar performance but you could mount it so the total lever arm is much shorter i.e. just long enough so the reflector is above the top of the rotator housing.


There's no problem with having the vhf below on the same mast. That's how mine was set up initiallly. 60 inches separation should do fine for high band vhf (7-13) and you can probably cheat a little even down to 48 inches. Technically that's not enough separation for low band (2-6) but it still seems to work ok in my experience.


Here's one of my earlier setup.


----------



## KeithAR2002

My neighborhood has a lot of trees around, that a 40 foot tower could most likely get above. The thing is, I need to find an installer, which Im sure there are some around, as I see some fairly new tower installations around town. And it seem like a big undertaking without having someone professional. In any case, The 4228 probably wouldn't fair well on a tower due to the weight, so if I was to get a tower, the XG91 would be a perfect candidate.


Actually, there is a house across the street that has a 50 foot tower up, the occupants moved a few years ago, I know them quite well and they still own the house, I thought about contacting them about the one there, but it's rusted, and has vines growing on it, so I'm sure it would be difficult to take apart. I guess I'll start calling some television service shops in the area, just to see if maybe they can tell me where to find an installer.


I think the separation between the 190 and 4228 is less than 48 inches....which could be trouble.


----------



## KeithAR2002

Just an update, I moved my VHF antenna back to where I originally had it, and managed to pull in KNOE last night...could have been due to the weather, so I'll have to see again tonight...I also started receiving my new local PBS station, that I haven't been able to receieve since I moved it from that location. So far, so good, but I may end up getting a rotator, and a higher gain antenna like the 3671, since the PBS transmitter and the direction of KNOE are about 50 degrees or so apart. I get PBS with the antenna pointed toward Monroe, but the signal strength isn't all that great.


----------



## geogecko




> Quote:
> - Would rather see you spend your money on a winegard hd7082p. I usually go with a winegard hd7084p at 35 miles (you show up as yellow and would go down a size). or add a ch 7-13 vhf antenna with your db-8 to get your vhf station. But if you do that, you might as well purchase the combo (hd7082P) and have one antenna.



You said that you normally go with a HD7084P at 35 miles, but for yellow, would go down a size. Is this with an outside antenna, or inside?


If outside, would you recommend the 7084P instead of the 7082P, or something else.


It appears that my reception while at 80%, appears to be the problem. On another forum, another user gets 100% on their signals, and has stutter free video (they had problems before when it was less than 90%).


I'm just wondering if the Winegard antennas will provide better performance than the DB-8. I've tried to align the DB-8 better, but I still do not get any better results than I already have, just moving it between 180 and 130 degrees (161 degrees is the real compus number), and the results never get better.


Oh, and are the Winegard HD series antennas uni-directional, or multi-directional?


----------



## Keenan

Anyone have experience Kathrein Scala products? I was looking at the parabolic model listed on the below page. A PDF is provided when you click on parabolic. I have no idea what these cost either, but apparently they're popular for commercial use such as cable companies picking up station's signals. I was wondering how they compared to the CM 4228/4248.


BTW, the Blonder-Tongue link in the first post is broken.

http://www.kathrein-scala.com/uhf-tv.htm 

Kathrein Scala Division - professional antenna and filter products for broadcast, land mobile and wireless communication applications.


----------



## milt9

I have no idea what these cost.

if you have to ask the price, you cannot afford it


----------



## Keenan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *milt9* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have no idea what these cost.
> 
> if you have to ask the price, you cannot afford it



I only asked as I have not contacted Kathrein Scala myself yet. If the thing works, and the cost is even somewhere in the low 3 digits, I have no problem with that.


I was mostly interested if anyone has actually used and has experience with the antenna.


----------



## AntAltMike

Do you have any reason to believe they will perform better than what you are using now? The difference between most consumer and commercial reception products is durability, not performance.


I thought that you were behind a hill, trying to get channels 40 to 50 miles away, with possible concern that a station some 15 miles away and 30 degrees offline might be complicating your amplification. Did you ever try either filtering off the likely offending signals or using a lower gain amplifier?


----------



## Keenan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do you have any reason to believe they will perform better than what you are using now? The difference between most consumer and commercial reception products is durability, not performance.
> 
> 
> I thought that you were behind a hill, trying to get channels 40 to 50 miles away, with possible concern that a station some 15 miles away and 30 degrees offline might be complicating your amplification. Did you ever try either filtering off the likely offending signals or using a lower gain amplifier?



I'm currently using a Research Comm pre-amp with the 91XG Yagi I talked about earlier, along with a Dish 622 receiver. The Dish is doing a better job than the HD-TiVo I was using before, but of course, it's still just not there.


The biggest problem is I get random complete loss of signal, when I do have the signal, which is 90-95% of the time it's good, no problem. If I can figure out what's causing the complete loss, and if there is a solution, then I'd be set. Something else of note, the local PBS station (RF-23), about 10-15 miles away, is pegging the Dish signal meter. There is also a Ch-41 block on the lead prior to the pre-amp. The desired channel is RF-45.


No, I have no reason to believe the KS product would be any better, I'm basically just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. That complete dropout of signal drives me nuts.


----------



## Keenan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> overload maybe
> 
> 
> what does the analog look like in regards to co channel and adjacent channel intereferences.
> 
> 
> the amp you have may be very low noise but the higher gain wrecks havoc. The 23 db gain of that unit is alot for stations 15 miles away...plus the 91xg has alot of gain to begin with.
> 
> 
> heck I would love to use a low noise higher gain amp at my place 12-19 miles from the towers with my winegard hd8200p.
> 
> 
> I had to settle with the winegard hdp-269 amp. on a good day I receive buffalo digital over 120 miles away. no attenuation...no dropouts, no multipath, no headaches, I hate using attenuation.
> 
> 
> I plan on experimenting with the 91xg this fall...that antenna intrigues me.



Can't tell, there is no analog tuner in the 622. If it was overload from Ch-22 wouldn't it be constant? I've been watching the ESPN game simulcast on Ch-45 and it hasn't dropped out in over an hour, that's not to say it won't happen a minute from now.


I think the most likely culprit is weather, the SF bay area has all sorts of micro-climates that are constantly changing during the day, and if that's the case, I'm pretty much SOL.


----------



## rastafurion

Can anyone recommend the best way for me to get broadcast hdtv without cable or satellite?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rastafurion* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can anyone recommend the best way for me to get broadcast hdtv without cable or satellite?



With an antenna and a digital tuner.


If you want more specifics, you'll have to be more specific: where are you located (zip code)? Can you put an antenna up outside? Are you on a hill, in a valley? Are you surrounded by tall buildings or trees?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rastafurion* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can anyone recommend the best way for me to get broadcast hdtv without cable or satellite?



OTA (over the air) digital TV including HDTV requires an ATSC tuner. This may already be incorporated into your TV if it is new or alternatively you may need to purchase an add-on set top box (STB). For info on various choices, visit the HDTV reception hardware section of AVS.


The signal for OTA (over the air) digital TV gets to your tuner in the traditional fashion via antenna/coax cable/antenna preamp. How much antenna, whether indoor or outdoor, and the need for a preamp depends on your location and distance to your local stations. The signals are broadcast over uhf/vhf just as they have been in the past and the technology is identical all the way up to the point of the HDTV tuner which is the only real difference.


Your local stations are currently broadcasting both analog (NTSC) and digital TV (ATSC) simultaneously as part of the so-called "digital transition". Last I heard, analog will shut down some time in 2009.


For a general idea of what antenna setup to use, go to http://www.antennaweb.org 


Also, you can go to http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp and put in your lat/longitude in decimal form for bearings/distances to your local stations. A link to find your magnetic variation from true north is also provided there.


Source to find your lat/longitude: http://terraserver.microsoft.com/ 


Also visit the OTA reception FAQ: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=611957 


Antennas, preamps, etc. thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=546066 


That should get you started. Once armed with the basic info, any further questions can be posted in the reception thread at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...50#post8211150 



To KEN H:

Maybe this reply could be copied and placed at the beginning of this thread?


----------



## RayL Jr.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keenan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> BTW, the Blonder-Tongue link in the first post is broken.



Thanks for the heads up, I corrected the link to Blonder Tongue's main page: *Blonder Tongue BTY Series VHF & UHF antennas* (page also has link to preamps, etc...).


As for the parabolic link, I'll look into it. Was going to put in Channel Master's 7 foot parabolic dish but that one has been discontinued...


----------



## RayL Jr.

I guess deals can still be had for the CM 4251 - manufacture was stopped in 2000. The Kathrein-Scala parabolics seem to list for "about" $767 MSRP from this page . And there are people on the web that seem happy with them, I did a search on Google for "Kathrein Scala parabolic" and ""Kathrein Scala PR-TV".


----------



## Keenan

Thanks, Ray and Rick.


What makes that 4251 so expensive? The size, the specs, or the fact that it's discontinued? There was one these at a local Home Theater store for years until he went out of business. I was going to ask the owner about it but he closed up shop and took the antenna with him before I got around to it.


As far as the KS stuff, as AltAntMike notes, it appears it's their durability that makes them special, unless there is something about their performance that makes them better, I haven't done a side by side comparison of the specs.


----------



## Keenan

Possibly another link for the first post. Wade Antenna Ltd.

http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/index.htm 

Antenna Manufacturer for VHF, UHF, Wi-Fi 802.11 Antenna Products.


The PB-82-BB "looks" good according to the specs. Looks to have high gain and a real narrow beam, which I'm guessing would be good in my situation. Haven't checked prices though, if it like the CM4251 it's too much, but at half that amount, and if it's a substantial improvement over the 91XG, it'd a real possibility.

http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/upaes.htm 

Wade Cable TV Antennas - UHF Broadband Parabolic Antennas


Something else I'm curious about. How would go about finding someone that would do a site survey, check for signal availability and possible interfering signals..that sort of thing, and what does that typically run cost-wise? Reason I ask about the interference is that in another part of the SF bay area there was a case where two different mobile radio transmissions would cancel out the frequency the person was trying to get and would cause dropouts very similar to what I'm having. I think one of the outfits was the local police, don't recall the other, but they did get it resolved after tracking down who was doing what.


----------



## Keenan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> did you try angling the 91xg to the horizon. you might find a sweetspot where reflections are minimized. the signal from the mtn. can bounce off the hills to the rear, etc.
> 
> 
> the area has a challenging topography...and must add...beautiful.



Not really, all we've done is go up and down around 10' feet with it. The installation would make it difficult to make elevation changes easily, although it could be done. I had given up on doing anything with it until I recently gave it a shot on the Dish 622 and got such a stable signal that my interest has peaked again. The installation itself is mounted atop a 70' redwood tree so it makes adjustments more than a simple chore, and no, wind moving the tree has not correlated to the dropouts, in fact, tree movement seems to have very little effect on the signal.


Before I try anything else I would like to try and understand the reason for the complete dropouts. To me, it would seem that weather would be gradual, possibly commercial jets from SFO using a particular flight pattern, I don't know, I'm guessing.


Yes, it is quite beautiful in this area, definitely outweighs moving just to get a better TV signal.


----------



## geogecko

I just realized that there is a rather large (at least 12", maybe 16") diameter HVAC duct running directly under my DB-8, well, about 2-3 feet below. Could that possibly be causing my problems with reception?


I notice that when I bring a compass within a few inches of the antenna, I get invalid readings...


If buying equipment for a mast at a home improvement store, what type of material is used for the mast itself? Steel pipe? What size is it?


----------



## keeper

Hey guys need some help here. I have a channel 4 digital/21 analog. Its about 21 miles away and there is a hill in my path. Experimenting with my CM 4228 the analog comes in below average. Audio is solid but the analog pq has some weird things going on with it. I take it is because of the mountain. Anyway is channel 4 easier to get than a uhf channel21? I am hoping since it is vhf it will be easier becuase of the wave lengths to acquire. My plan is to use a cut vhf channel 4. I need this channel. Thanks


----------



## generallee

My Winegard Square Shooter is great for urban settings and it looks good too. I get excellent reception.


----------



## MastaMind

Hey guys,


I moved into a new home several months ago, and my older antenna (Terk TV5 indoor) no longer picks up the channels that it used to. I'm looking for a replacement indoor antenna for Fishers, IN 46038. Would anyone be willing and able to help me find a replacement? Thanks.


----------



## keeper

I guess my question is - all things being equal is vhf (4) easier to aquire than uhf stations? I think that a vhf signal will go longer distances than a uhf so I am hoping the vhf is easier to get.


----------



## markrubin

my Wineguard Chomstar series 2000 mast mounted preamp has failed again:


this time I want to replace it with something better that is sealed from the ambient (the Wineguard is not a sealed device: this is the third one to fail over 4 years)


used for ATSC reception


any suggestions for a better preamp that will withstand a seashore enviornment?


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keeper* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> vhf (4) easier to aquire than uhf stations? I think that a vhf signal will go longer distances than a uhf so I am hoping the vhf is easier to get.



VHF signals do propagate better than UHF because their wavelength is longer so they diffract ("bend") more at ridge tops and can follow the earth's curvature to some extent. Also they pass more easily through trees etc. Lower channel numbers have longer wavelengths, so these factors work best for low VHF channels (2-6).


On the other hand, VHF signals are more susceptible to electrical interference and impulse noise, and the lower channels are the worst in this respect. Unfortunately, digital signals are much more sensitive to this than analog signals are. With analog, the noise shows up as bands of bright "sparkles" which are annoying, but the picture is still watchable. With digital, the noise causes the picture to break up completely.


----------



## tyromark

I was checking out just this situation for my bro-in-law on NW side of Indy. I'd consider outdoor or attic installation of a comparatively powerful and unobtrusive cm4221 pointed at the towers in Indy for a fixed set-up. If you wanted the signals from Bloomington, a larger antenna and rotator might be called for.


----------



## keeper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> VHF signals do propagate better than UHF because their wavelength is longer so they diffract ("bend") more at ridge tops and can follow the earth's curvature to some extent. Also they pass more easily through trees etc. Lower channel numbers have longer wavelengths, so these factors work best for low VHF channels (2-6).
> 
> 
> On the other hand, VHF signals are more susceptible to electrical interference and impulse noise, and the lower channels are the worst in this respect. Unfortunately, digital signals are much more sensitive to this than analog signals are. With analog, the noise shows up as bands of bright "sparkles" which are annoying, but the picture is still watchable. With digital, the noise causes the picture to break up completely.



Thanks, That is what I was looking for.


----------



## Keenan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markrubin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> my Wineguard Chomstar series 2000 mast mounted preamp has failed again:
> 
> 
> this time I want to replace it with something better that is sealed from the ambient (the Wineguard is not a sealed device: this is the third one to fail over 4 years)
> 
> 
> used for ATSC reception
> 
> 
> any suggestions for a better preamp that will withstand a seashore enviornment?



How about using a junction box that you can seal? The example below may be too small but it works fine with my pre-amp as it's about the size of a pack of cigarettes, but you can get boxes like that in larger sizes. It's not the most elegant of solutions when it comes to attaching to the mast, but it works.


----------



## markrubin

keenan


good idea but it adds a lot of complexity up on the roof


I am thinking I may just remove the preamp on the mast and use one inside the house: the difference is about 100 feet of RG-6


I was hoping someone made a good quality preamp


----------



## Keenan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markrubin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> keenan
> 
> 
> good idea but it adds a lot of complexity up on the roof
> 
> 
> I am thinking I may just remove the preamp on the mast and use one inside the house: the difference is about 100 feet of RG-6
> 
> 
> I was hoping someone made a good quality preamp



What's happening to it? Is the underside open to the elements along the edge? If so, why not run a bead of silicon around the edge to completely seal it? I've done that with a CM I've used and it worked fine, although I'm not near saltwater, but I think it would work just as well.


Or is it the housing itself deteriorating?


100 feet of RG6 will give you about a 3db loss on the signal if I'm not mistaken. If you're using a pre-amp to begin with I'm assuming you have weak signals already so that may become a factor.


----------



## markrubin

the board itself is corroding


I never tried it without the preamp: just specified it when I had it installed


I think I will jump out the preamp and see if I can do without


----------



## geogecko

Hmm...well, the distrubution amp did not help the signal level any, at least, on channel 35.


Moving the antenna away from the HVAC duct also did not seem to improve the signal level, however, the annoying stuttering that was happening, has gone away. I haven't yet determined if it was due to moving the antenna, or the amp, at this point.


I like my new mounting though. I installed a 2x4 spacer between the Radio Shack attic mount, so that the antenna can sit level (not that it makes a difference), but it's much easier to adjust now.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markrubin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am thinking I may just remove the preamp on the mast and use one inside the house: the difference is about 100 feet of RG-6



Right now my preamp (a Channel Master 7777) is inside the house because I haven't gotten around to getting an installer to put it outside near the antenna. I want to revamp my antenna setup anyway because the mast is rather old and I want to switch to a 2-antenna setup (one for high-VHF and one for UHF).


I think my biggest problem in the future is going to be impuse noise on the VHF channels and the lowest UHF channels. Will moving the preamp up near the antenna help with this? That is, does a significant amount of impulse noise enter via the coaxial cable coming down from the roof (in which case having the preamp near the antenna should improve things), or does it mostly come via the antenna? I think most of my impuse noise comes from external sources (power lines, transformers etc.).


Fortunately, right now only two stations that I can receive, broadcast their digital signal on a VHF channel, and I have UHF alternatives on the same network for both of them. After analog shutdown, some others will switch to VHF. All will be high VHF (7-13), including both of the ABC stations that are within range.


----------



## vonshu

Hi, I need an over-the-air small multidirectional antenna to recieve local hd broadcasts. I think i need it to be VHF/UHF but i dont know very much about them so im not sure. i also need one thats fairly cheap and it has to be indoors. I don't really have any tall buildings or trees very close to me either and i live in a 1 story house. If anyone has any more info for me it would be appreciated. Thanks.


I live in Davie, Florida


and incase you need to know, this is the tv im using:


and i also have a surround sound system that i want to use with it, here it is:


well nevermind about the tv and surround sound, it wont let me post links yet. Hopefully you guys dont need them


----------



## geogecko

Mainly afraid of my wife coming home one day, and screaming, "what the heck is that big, ugly contraption attached to the roof?!" I'd much rather install it outside, for one, to improve reception, and secondly, at some point, I was wanting to get a weather station, which to get accurate wind speed and direction, needs to be mounted up high and away from buildings and trees. So, an antenna mast would provide two functions.


The only other thing, is getting motivated to do it myself. I need the cable, hardware, and then probably a good full day to do a good installation, hopefully, without interrupting the incoming fall season.


I think that is my next move, to test the waters of having an antenna on the roof. I sure wish our house faced North, so that I could just mount something on the back of the house.


----------



## Keenan

Tell the wife having an antenna on your roof is a status symbol, it means you're well off enough to have an HD-TV.


----------



## geogecko

Nice. I'll see where that gets me.


----------



## geogecko

Do you just let the coax and ground wire from a mast on the roof just go down the roof line, without attaching it? Or do you need to attach it at regular points? I'd rather just let it hang there, so I don't put unnecessary holes in the roof. It would probably only be going some 30-40 feet before going down the side of the house.


----------



## geogecko

LOL, nice story. All good points.


Any comments on the cabling going down the roof? Is just letting it lie there good enough?


I assume this list would do it? I plan on getting outside with my DB-8 at some point, but in the end, would probably want to replace it with a combo UHF/VHF antenna.


Okay, so I guess posting a link to eBay is not proper...anyway, the Winegard HD7084P.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 


Would that ground wire be sufficient? Also, I guess I'd need some sort of coax lightning surge suppressor?


----------



## milehighmike

My coax, about 20 feet of it, just lies on the roof, running at about a 45 degree angle from the bottom of the mast at the peak to the roof edge. Been that way for about 3 years. Never had a problem, don't suspect I ever will.


----------



## etcarroll

What we need is your zip.


Or, you can enter it yourself at antennaweb.org


----------



## epauladams

I'm for sure not one of the resident experts but you are either 7 miles to 12 miles from the transmission towers. Next closest is about 35 miles. If you just want the close in channels I would recommend the Silver Sensor.


What do you regular guru's think?


He does have one vhf channel in the group but at 7 to 12 miles the Silver Sensor would still work, wouldn't it?????




edit for stupid spelling mistake


----------



## vonshu

yea i already did the antenna web thing and these are the results:




DTV Antenna

Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live

Date Compass

Orientation Miles

From Frequency

Assignment


yellow - vhf WPLG 10 ABC MIAMI FL

147° 12.4 10

* yellow - vhf WPLG-DT 10.1 ABC MIAMI FL

147° 12.4 9

* yellow - uhf WPPB-DT 44 IND BOCA RATON FL TBD 134° 12.7 44

* yellow - uhf WPXM-DT 35.1 i MIAMI FL

139° 12.1 26


yellow - uhf WSCV 51 TEL FORT LAUDERDALE FL

139° 12.1 51

* yellow - uhf WSCV-DT 51.1 TEL FORT LAUDERDALE FL

139° 12.1 52


yellow - vhf WSVN 7 FOX MIAMI FL

148° 12.5 7

* yellow - vhf WSVN-DT 7.1 FOX MIAMI FL

148° 12.5 8

* yellow - uhf WTVJ-DT 6.1 NBC MIAMI FL

149° 11.9 31


yellow - uhf WLRN 17 PBS MIAMI FL

149° 12.8 17

* yellow - uhf WLRN-DT 17.1 PBS MIAMI FL

141° 12.3 20


yellow - uhf WLTV 23 UNI MIAMI FL

149° 11.9 23

* yellow - uhf WLTV-DT 23.1 UNI MIAMI FL

149° 11.9 24


yellow - vhf WFOR 4 CBS MIAMI FL

149° 11.9 4

* yellow - uhf WFOR-DT 4.1 CBS MIAMI FL

149° 11.9 22


yellow - uhf WBFS 33 UPN MIAMI FL

147° 12.5 33

* yellow - uhf WBFS-DT 33.1 UPN MIAMI FL

147° 12.4 32


yellow - uhf WAMI 69 TFA HOLLYWOOD FL

147° 12.5 69

* yellow - uhf WAMI-DT 69.1 TFA HOLLYWOOD FL

139° 12.1 47


yellow - uhf WBZL 39 WB MIAMI FL

149° 11.9 39

* yellow - uhf WBZL-DT 39.1 WB MIAMI FL

149° 11.9 19

* yellow - uhf WHDT-DT 44 IND MIAMI FL

146° 12.2 44


yellow - uhf WHFT 45 TBN MIAMI FL

134° 12.7 45

* yellow - uhf WPBT-DT 2.1 PBS MIAMI FL

149° 12.8 18

* yellow - uhf WPTV-DT 5.1 NBC WEST PALM BEACH FL

17° 34.0 55


yellow - uhf WXEL 42 PBS WEST PALM BEACH FL

14° 32.8 42

* yellow - uhf WXEL-DT 42.1 PBS WEST PALM BEACH FL

14° 32.8 27


yellow - uhf WFLX 29 FOX WEST PALM BEACH FL

14° 32.8 29

* yellow - uhf WFLX-DT 29.1 FOX WEST PALM BEACH FL

14° 32.8 28

* green - uhf WPXP-DT 67.1 i LAKE WORTH FL

18° 33.9 36


green - uhf WPPB 63 IND BOCA RATON FL

78° 10.5 63


green - uhf WFUN-CA 48 HSN MIAMI, ETC. FL

147° 12.4 48


green - vhf WPBT 2 PBS MIAMI FL

149° 12.8 2


lt green - vhf WTVJ 6 NBC MIAMI FL

197° 40.2 6

* lt green - uhf WHFT-DT 46.1 TBN MIAMI FL

134° 12.7 46


lt green - uhf WGEN-LP 57 SPA MIAMI FL

197° 40.2 57


lt green - vhf WPEC 12 CBS WEST PALM BEACH FL

18° 34.0 12


lt green - vhf WPTV 5 NBC WEST PALM BEACH FL

17° 34.0 5

* red - uhf WFGC-DT 49 CTN PALM BEACH FL FCC Ext 18° 34.0 49

* red - vhf WPEC-DT 12.1 CBS WEST PALM BEACH FL

18° 34.0 13


red - uhf WPXM 35 i MIAMI FL

182° 29.3 35


blue - uhf WJAN-CA 41 IND MIAMI FL

198° 23.9 41


blue - uhf WIMP-CA 25 BOX MIAMI FL

164° 24.9 25


blue - uhf WSBS-CA 21 SPA MIAMI, ETC. FL

163° 24.8 21


blue - uhf WPXP 67 i LAKE WORTH FL

14° 45.9 67


blue - uhf WFGC 61 CTN PALM BEACH FL

14° 45.9 61


blue - uhf WDLP-CA 21 SPA POMPANO BEACH FL

65° 17.1 21


violet - uhf WTCN-CA 19 IND PALM BEACH FL

13° 64.0 19


violet - uhf WTCE 21 TBN FORT PIERCE FL

3° 91.6 21


violet - uhf WWHB-CA 48 AZA STUART FL

13° 64.0 48


violet - uhf WTVX 34 UPN FORT PIERCE FL

2° 70.0 34


violet - uhf WPBF 25 ABC TEQUESTA FL

1° 70.0 25


violet - uhf WWJV-LP 53 TFA JUPITER FL

23° 50.3 53


violet - uhf WBPX-LP 31 i WEST PALM BEACH FL

23° 50.3 31


violet - uhf WBBH 20 NBC FORT MYERS FL

304° 101.5 20


violet - uhf WFTX 36 FOX CAPE CORAL FL

302° 102.5 36


violet - uhf WGCU 30 PBS FORT MYERS FL

304° 101.0 30


violet - vhf WINK 11 CBS FORT MYERS FL

303° 100.5 11


violet - uhf WZVN 26 ABC NAPLES FL

290° 83.3 26


ok that kinda got messed up but hopefully u can understand it. My zip code is 33325. and also, it looks like 2 digital channels in the yellow are vhf. and i want both of those channels so i kinda need vhf/uhf. so what antenna do u recommend now?


----------



## m_vanmeter

as a purely "static bleed" the small gauge ground wire will work, but personally I would install at least a 10 guage copper grounding conductor from the antenna mast to the ground rod.


Coax laying on the roof is OK. I live on top of a hill and the winds get fairly high at times. My coax is held down with zip ties in a couple of places where it was convienient to use them and very well tied off to the bottom of the mast.


Make sure you have a can of roofing mastic to goo up everything where you bolt the tripod to the roof. It's sloppy as hell, but the more the better - you don't want any pesky water leaks.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vonshu* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My zip code is 33325. and also, it looks like 2 digital channels in the yellow are vhf. and i want both of those channels so i kinda need vhf/uhf. so what antenna do u recommend now?



At 12 miles, the Silver Sensor is the way to go, even for hi-VHF (channels 7-13.)


----------



## vonshu




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> At 12 miles, the Silver Sensor is the way to go, even for hi-VHF (channels 7-13.)



wait, so your saying the silver sensor can get vhf channels 7-13 aswell? How is that possible if its only for uhf? Because if it can get those then it will be perfect for me. but if not, how do you think this one is?


----------



## Kolchak




epauladams said:


> If you just want the close in channels I would recommend the Silver Sensor.
> 
> 
> Agreed. Silver Sensor for indoor, DB2 for indoor or outdoor. Both are UHF, will pick up digital VHF 8 and 9 at your range. First, try regular rabbit ears with UHF loop. You may be surprised at the digital stations it can pull in.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (impulse) noise can be minimized if (you)
> 
> 
> -use the highest gain antenna
> 
> -install preamp at the antenna
> 
> -use dual shield cable
> 
> -proper fitting installation
> 
> -minimize the cable run to as short as possibe (less exposure to the noise)
> 
> -isolate where the noise is coming from and address that



Those who have tried to minimize the white speckles on VHF lowband channels know that very little can be done to mitigate impulse noise at any price. I installed the master antenna array at National Captioning Institutes headend and could do nothing to visiby reduce the white speckles on analog channel 2. We used quad shielded RG-11, a Blonder Tongue cut-to-channel commercial antenna and a Blonder Tongue single channel amplifier.


In rare instances, you can find a local interference source and mitigate it. In most instances, the interference is coming from lots of sources which you can't pinpoint or control, and it is picked up in-band by the antennas active element, and to the extent that its source is unfavorable, it may even be amplified by the antenna's gain structure.


----------



## Keenan

Possible link addition for the first post. They're in Canada but do ship to the USA

http://www.tinlee.com/ 

Deletion Filters, Cable Television Filters, CATV Filters, Traps Etc. For TV and Cable TV Systems


----------



## vonshu




Kolchak said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *epauladams* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you just want the close in channels I would recommend the Silver Sensor.
> 
> 
> Agreed. Silver Sensor for indoor, DB2 for indoor or outdoor. Both are UHF, will pick up digital VHF 8 and 9 at your range. First, try regular rabbit ears with UHF loop. You may be surprised at the digital stations it can pull in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but i dont need channels 8 and 9, I need channels 10.1 and 7.1. Unless you mean the frequencies, in which case, yes 8 and 9 are for those channels.
Click to expand...


----------



## keeper

One quick question. Does the CM 4228 split into two pieces? I thought that I read that some years ago. Thanks


----------



## KeithAR2002

I thought about getting the Silver Sensor for when Im out of town, and carrying my "Vacation" 19" Polaroid HDTV for HD. (I dont think it would be practical for me to haul my LG 32" to a hotel)... I've found that those rabbit ears with the fine tuning dials don't work too well for digital. Are there any big box stores (Best Buy, CC) that carry the SS? I just dont feel like ordering it online.



> Quote:
> but i dont need channels 8 and 9, I need channels 10.1 and 7.1. Unless you mean the frequencies, in which case, yes 8 and 9 are for those channels.



10.1 and 7.1 are the virtual channels for the analog channels. The FCC required stations to add the virtual channel info into PSIP information, so it wouldn't confuse consumers.


For example, the local NBC affiliate here is analog channel 10, and digital channel 27. It confused me at first, I didn't understand why I had to tune to a UHF channel. And when I turned to 27, it remapped as 10-1. IOW, the only thing that matters is what the real frequency is, in my case, channel 27. Many people make the mistake in getting a VHF antenna when they really need a UHF antenna, and vise versa...due to the confusion.


I actually like the fact that the stations re-map, now


----------



## keeper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> the cm4228 comes with the screen in 2 halves.
> 
> 
> you can drill out the rivets, 4 rivets top and bottom that attach the support structure, and the hardware that attach the feed lines at the middle of the antenna. disassemble, then reassemble with screws. see pic
> 
> 
> I allign the two screens and attach nylon ties to better support the screens from flopping about in the wind. the screens usually are a mess out of box...not alligned, on top of each other, etc.




Thanks


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vonshu* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> wait, so your saying the silver sensor can get vhf channels 7-13 aswell? How is that possible if its only for uhf? Because if it can get those then it will be perfect for me. but if not, how do you think this one is?



The Terk HDTVi that you linked is also a fine choice. Either should work for you.


Antennas are just hunks of metal. They pick up *every* frequency, but they are best at picking up the range they are designed for. All UHF antennas pick up some hi-VHF signal, usually more than enough for digital reception inside of 20 miles.


----------



## vonshu

Ok, thanks for all the help guys. I think I'm going to get the TERK HDTVi just to be safe. But my last question is, how do I know which way to point the antenna (compass orientation). I want it around the 134-149 range, so how do I know which direction that is in. Thanks.


----------



## goldrich

vonshu,


0 degrees is north, 90 degrees is east and 180 degrees is south. So 134-149 would be southeast. I hope that helps.


Steve


----------



## adamuncw

Ok, here is my antenna info for where I live, will a Silver Sensor Indoor Antenna work?


yellow - uhf WMMP-DT 36.1 UPN CHARLESTON SC 245° 6.5 35

* yellow - uhf WTAT-DT 24.1 FOX CHARLESTON SC 245° 6.5 40

* yellow - uhf WCBD-DT 2.1 NBC CHARLESTON SC 182° 8.1 50

* yellow - uhf WCSC-DT 5.1 CBS CHARLESTON SC 94° 12.1 47

* yellow - uhf WITV-DT 49.1 PBS CHARLESTON SC 94° 12.1 49

* red - uhf WCIV-DT 4.1 ABC CHARLESTON SC 94° 12.1 34

Note:


If so, can someone provide brief info on any setup required?


----------



## goldrich

With a fairly flat terrain here in the Indy area for fairly good line of sight reception, I've experimented with the Silver Sensor in the 35-40 mile range. I've been able to receive most of the full power/high tower (for good line of sight signal) stations, but even those were VERY sensitive to antenna placement. If I moved the antenna even a few inches, I could either find the signal or I could completely lose it. Or even when the signal looked fine, sometimes I could lose the signal by walking around the room in front of the antenna.


One of my tests at 38 miles distant from most stations, I used a very short piece of RG-6 coaxial cable (about 4 ft.) between the SS and the receiver for very little line loss. Another time I tried a longer piece of coax (about 12 ft.) along with a Motorola Signal Booster to amplify the signal, and got slightly better results.


In most cases, it is tough to get reliable reception with a small indoor antenna beyond 30 to 40 miles, but YMMV (your mileage may vary). But I guess you'll never know until you try. A lot of reception reports are based on trial and error. Also, DTV tuners are not all created equal as I've discovered after testing several of them over the past five years. Good luck.


Steve


----------



## KeithAR2002

goldrich, is the Silver Sensor sold at Circuit City still? I remember seeing them a while back, but havent looked lately. I'd like to experiment with one, as it sounds like one of the best digital indoor antennas around.


BTW, excellent DTV DX photos! Seeing your album motivated me to post my DTV results, as well







Did you have an LG tuner, or LG television? Because some of the PSIP info looks similar to mine.


----------



## geogecko

Thanks for all the advice here. I stopped by Radio Shack, and picked up the tripod and both the 5' and 10' masts (I have 30 days to bring one back).


I ordered several lengths of RG6 off eBay, and a lightning coax surge suppressor/grounding block. Now all I need, is a #10 grounding wire, a grounding rod, and wire clamp. I also need to pick up some of that roofing sealant, and some silicone sealant for the eve.


The hard part is going to be getting the cable into the attic. I will probably be going into an eve, but the ones that are close by, are where the roof is sloping down to. Most likely, I'll have to drill a hole, and push the wire up from outside, hoping that it comes out somewhere where I can get it.


----------



## SEMIJim




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geogecko* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do you just let the coax and ground wire from a mast on the roof just go down the roof line, without attaching it?



That's what I did. Then they go over the gutter, curve back in under the soffit, and run through the top pair of stand-offs about 2 feet down or so.


You especially don't want any sharp bends in the ground wire, or any more bends/curves than necessary.


Ground rod should be at the bottom of the vertical ground wire run, at or beyond the drip line. Recommendation is to put lightning arrestor close to the entry point into the home. I put mine at the bottom of the vertical run to make the ground wire run shorter and simpler.


If you don't have an F-connector tool yet, I can _highlyh_ recommend the Paladin DataShark 70019 kit Home Depot carries.


As far as the wife pitching a *****, well... it's your house too, you know. My wife isn't real exited about ours, but it's either that or hideous $$/mo. for cable or satellite, so...


----------



## goldrich

Keith, according to this post http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=711469 the Silver Sensor is available at CC. I bought mine online about a year ago.


You've done a nice job of putting up your DTV pics, and great job of catching the Houston DTVs at over 300 miles. It appears you're in a sweet spot for DXing. I guess I'm doing okay considering I have to contend with so much strong RF, as I'm just 3-5 miles from most of the Indy towers.


Yes, I own the LG LST-3100A STB. I thought the same thing while looking at your pics. Also, I own the Radio Shack closeout STB, the Accurian. The PSIP channel banner on it is virtually identical to your ProBrand. I believe I read that the RS Accurian was made by ProBrand. Currently my favorite DTV DXing STB is the RCA ATSC11 (2003 model) because of its very sensitive tuner and what I call "DXer friendly" features. I picked it up on Ebay.


Steve


----------



## KeithAR2002

I'm probably in a good spot, due to there being only one transmitter here... and it's 25 miles away. The rest are in the 70-80 mile range. It's unfortunate that I can't get reliable HD from my location (except at night)...but it makes me appreciate HD that much more! And I like the challenges of DXing.


Wow, I looked at that RCA model, and it's expensive on ebay! I might try it later on, but 474.00 is a pretty penny! It really must have been an excellent product. I like the ProBrand that I have, but I find that sometimes it has a difficult time deciding if a channel is analog or digital. I can use the LG tuner, and it'll pick up a stations right away, but not with the ProBrand..same goes for the LG though, I can get one signal with the ProBrand and nothing with the LG. I end up just alternating between the two.


----------



## goldrich

Keith, I know what you mean by alternating between receivers when DXing. I find I do that, too. Most stations decode easier with the RCA STB, but occasionally the LG will decode some ahead of the RCA. Also, I have the Humax HFA-100, which has a great tuner, but DXing with it is very difficult. But if I force it to decode a station I know is available, it will sometimes decode ahead of any of my other digital receivers. It can be a toss up.


BTW, I did not spend that much for the RCA ATSC11 on Ebay. It was a different seller and I got it for a little over $200, and it was a new one. A few weeks ago there were some used ones available that went for around $85. They were banged up a little, but a DXer here in Indy bought one and it works great. On Ebay, it's all in the timing. 


Steve


----------



## KeithAR2002

Yeah, all the boexs on ebay were $474.00..but there were only thre or four of them.


I have the US Digital box, box it's not nearly as good as I thought. I think it suffers from multipath problems. One thing I do like about it is the program guide, channel guide, etc is well set-up and easy to get to. I only use this box when I'm out of town, though. I've been having problems with the USD box accepting just regular A/V inputs. When I hook it up to a regular TV, nothing happens. When I hook it up to an HD compatible TV, it works. Very odd... and it just started a couple weeks ago.


----------



## hdtvluvr

Dont forget when you sink the grounding rod, that you will need to 'bond" it to your main house ground in order to meet building code and to prevent gound loops. In other words, you will need to run #10 wire from your new ground rod to the grounding rod connected to your main electrical service.


----------



## milehighmike




> Quote:
> Dont forget when you sink the grounding rod, that you will need to 'bond" it to your main house ground in order to meet building code and to prevent gound loops. In other words, you will need to run #10 wire from your new ground rod to the grounding rod connected to your main electrical service.



I agree with this but the thought occurred to me - why go through the trouble and expense of sinking a second ground rod if you have to run ground wire to the main electrical ground anyway? Why not just run the ground wire and skip the second ground rod?


----------



## hdtvluvr

You can use the main ground rod. However, one should ground the coax and antenna as close as possible to where the coax enters the house. This may not be close to the main ground. If not, add a dedicated ground rod and bond it to the house ground.


The idea is to get the static discharge from coax / antenna to the ground in the shortest distance possible. The bonding of the 2 grounds prevents any imbalances between the 2 grounds which can cause problems.


----------



## geogecko

Well, that stinks. I didn't think about tying the ground rods together. I might have re-thought where I was going to place the antenna, had I remembered that it's a good idea to do that.


The current ground rod, and the one I was thinking of installing, are about 40 feet apart.


Maybe one thing to note, is that I'm not sure it would need to be 10AWG wire, because really, all that's trying to be done, is to eliminate the two grounding rods from drifting apart in voltage. If lightning strikes, the "syncing" of the two rods does not matter at this point, just to get the high voltage down the antenna mast and to earth ground, does it not? But, if buying 10AWG wire anyway, why not?


One question I have, is do you guys think the tripod that I bought, can support a 15 foot mast, with antenna? I got to thinking, that the 5 foot mast alone, nor the 10 foot mast, will be high enough, initially, with the 4 bank bowtie, to get it above the roof line. (My original location, is on a lower peak of the house, in the back (north), so that it cannot be seen from the front of the house, which faces south.


I'm starting to think now, with the grounding issue, that it may be better to just mount it on the highest peak, use the 5 foot mast, original ground, and be done with it. I should have enough coax to reach that far anyway, but just finding the optimal position on that peak, to eliminate negative curb appeal, will be the hardest task. It also makes the install easier, since that particular location, is above the garage, and there does not happen to be blown-in insuallation in the attic.


I think I've just convinced myself to change the install location. I can use two carefully placed trees to sheild the view of the antenna.


Oh, one other question. I was just going to use the foot pad that is bolted to the tripod (the others have rivits), to use for my ground location. Is that good enough, or should the actual mast be used? I guess if I filed away part of the paint on the mast, where one of the bolts pushes against it, that should give me enough of a ground.


----------



## hdtvluvr

If I remember correctly from what I've read, 10 ga is the minimum that should be used to bond ground rods together.


You could always purchase 10ga with insulation and bury it in a slit in the ground from one rod to the other. Just keep the turns to a minimum and make curves instead of 90 deg bends.


Regarrding the tripod, I would use bolts instead of screws and use a piece of 2X4 several inches long as a backplate in the attic. The bowtie style antenna will have a large windload and the best scenario would be that it would only loosen screws, Worst case, it could pull the screws completely out of the deck. Either way may cause a leak. Of course, the higher you mount the antenna, the less force it will take to do either since the antenna will be the end of the lever.


----------



## DougRuss




> Quote:
> I think I've just convinced myself to change the install location. I can use two carefully placed trees to sheild the view of the antenna.



Don't worry about the View !!


Show Pride in what you have !!










After a few weeks,you'll never notice it up there(and Neither should your NOSEY Neighbors !).


----------



## geogecko









Yeah, I know, I'm bad about thinking about stuff too much. That's why it takes me forever to do anything, but hey, I take pride in my work. That's why it took me 6 months to make two pairs of redwood shutters for my house!







They look darn good though!


Those are some good points about the 2x4's in the attic. Not a bad idea. So, I assume you use a drill to drill holes through the shingles and decking? How thick is normal decking? 1/2"? I guess you have to fasten the 2x4 after you've drilled the holes, so that you know where it put it inside the attic. On top of that, you'd have to tack it down for a bit, while you went back up to the attic, to drill the holes through the 2x4.


If mounting it on the new location, I can just use the 5' mast, so that should reduce the load on the tripod arms. I think I may just order the winegard antenna, that way, if I don't finish the installation in time, I can at least still have "decent" reception, until I do get it done. While the tilting action of the tripod is nice, I'm not sure it would be useful for me, since the pitch of my roof, and the location on the roof, would make it almost impossible to climb down to the end of the mast, once it is tilted down on the roof.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hdtvluvr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Dont forget when you sink the grounding rod, that you will need to 'bond" it to your main house ground in order to meet building code and to prevent gound loops. In other words, you will need to run #10 wire from your new ground rod to the grounding rod connected to your main electrical service.



The mast must be grounded with 10 gauge copper, 8 gauge aluminum or 17 gauge copper clad steel wire. Any auxilliary ground rod driven to develop a more direct path to the earth must be bonded to the building's ground electrode system with *6* gauge copper wire.


----------



## geogecko

I think I'm going to order the HD7084P. The bowtie DB-8 would probably be enough, but if I'm going to this trouble to mount the antenna, I wouldn't mind getting ABC, and I don't think the DB-8, even mounted on the roof, will pull it in.


I thought about using the ground with the coax, but I couldn't tell what gauge the ground wire was (seemed like it was smaller than 10 AWG, not that it matters, most inspectors I've seen, don't do that great of a job inspecting things such as that. They are more concerned with water, HVAC, drainage, foundation, etc. Guess if you paid one enough, they might point that out. Since I already ordered the coax, I'll probably just get some 10 AWG, and zip tie them together about ever foot or two.


Sounds like a good install, Rick. I think I'll go with the lag screws, for now, unless something happens to rip the thing off the roof.


Ouch, 6 AWG to tie the points together! Now I know I'm not going to mount it remotely. I'm going straight to the main ground. It is funny to see all the boxes on the outside of the house. The only two wires that go straight to the ground rod directly, are the breaker box, and the telephone box. The Verizon FiOS, sprinkler system, and old Comcast cable ground, all are just jumpered over to the electrical meter.


I just scoped out the new mounting location. It's going to be great. It is covered from VIEW only (does not effect the path of the antenna), from 3 trees!!! Basically, there is only a couple places in the front yard that you can stand, that you'd be able to see it. It will be great when we try and sell the house, because pictures could be taken that don't show it.


Thanks for all the help, I know I'll probably be back within a couple weeks to report on how the installation went.


----------



## hdtvluvr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> *6* gauge copper wire.



Thanks for this info. I had thought it was all supposed to be 10ga.


----------



## geogecko

Well...good old Home Depot doesn't stock 10 AWG solid wire, so I ended up buying solid 12 AWG. I got to thinking, why not just use two 12 AWG wires. According to a wire gauge chart I found, two 12 AWG wires is almost equal in size to a single 6 AWG wire. I think that should do it.


I guess you want to keep away from stranded wire, due to corrosion around the grounding rod. I found these neat little copper grounding 'tabs' that have a hole in one side, then have a little block of copper on the other, with a set screw. I'm planning on using one of these to attach the ground wire to the tripod.


Hopefully, my antenna will make it here before Friday, but I doubt it. UPS ground is usually rather slow. At least I could attach the ground clap to the rod, and maybe get a coax to come out of the attic to the outside of the house...


----------



## AntAltMike

The ground wire for the mast doesn't have to be solid, nor does the 6 gauge bonding wire. The wire for grounding the outer conductor of the coax as near as possible to the point at which it enters the building used to have to be solid and insulated, but I think they did away with those two requirements in the 2002 revision of the Code, of which I do not have a copy.


----------



## foamy909

I just wanted to thank everyone here for their input. I have been able to get a consistent signal on WBBM-DT (low VHF channel 3) using the folded dipole recommended by several posters. I was not able to find twin-lead anywhere, so I used 16 gauge wire, some cable clips, and a two four-foot strips of plywood. I have placed the dipole in the attic, wiring it to RG-6 using a 300 - 75 ohm transformer. Initially, it worked fine on the floor of the living room, but my wife was not very pleased... ;-)


I placed a simple VHF/UHF coupler from Radio Shack on the coaxial input of the HDTV, and used rabbit ears with a UHF loop for the rest of the stations, which are all UHF. My location helps, as I am only 12 miles from the Chicago transmitters.


I still plan on installing a Winegard 7210 on the roof fairly soon, as a couple of the UHF stations are a bit weak, but I at least know that I can add the dipole via a join-tenna if necessary. Warren Electronics seems to be the only outlet for one that will join/trap channel three, but hopefully, it will not be necessary.


The newest 5th Gen LG Chipset (in a 37" LG LC2D) also seems to work as advertised, as I have not had any multipath issues (except for the occasional airplane on approach to Midway)


Posting on this forum and lurking in the Chicago thread gave me more than enough information to get this done at fairly little cost. Thanks again for all the input!


----------



## steve liebert

I purchased one of the used RCA ATSC11 tuners on ebay. Technically it works fine, but I have one problem which I can't seem to figure out. I can't manually add channels to the memory. The unit will auto scan and pick up all channel with the antenna at one position, but when you change the position to add additional stations into memory, it drops the previous channels.(it does this intentionallly as you have to confirm this erasure before the scan.) This is pretty annoying. It's hard to believe that the tuner was designed this way.


Anyone have any thoughts. Would a multi-directional antenna help?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *steve liebert* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The unit will auto scan and pick up all channel with the antenna at one position, but when you change the position to add additional stations into memory, it drops the previous channels.(it does this intentionallly as you have to confirm this erasure before the scan.) This is pretty annoying. It's hard to believe that the tuner was designed this way.
> 
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts. Would a multi-directional antenna help?



It does appear that this is how the ATSC11 was designed. (Nobody uses rotors anymore, right? That's so... quaint.)


Multidirectional antennas typically do a poor job with digital reception, but you're certainly free to try.


I take it manual tuning is not acceptable to you, or isn't an option with the 11?


----------



## steve liebert




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It does appear that this is how the ATSC11 was designed. (Nobody uses rotors anymore, right? That's so... quaint.)
> 
> 
> Multidirectional antennas typically do a poor job with digital reception, but you're certainly free to try.
> 
> 
> I take it manual tuning is not acceptable to you, or isn't an option with the 11?




Manual input does not seem to be an option. There is nothing in the menu other than auto scan and just using the remote to select a channel and then hitting the add/delete button won't do anything. I have to change the rotor direction in some cases anyway but to have to go thru autoscan each time is riduclous. The engineers/programmers who design these things must not use them or mgmt. is trying to save $.30/unit. It just doesn't make any "cents" to me.


----------



## AntAltMike

If you point an antenna in each direction and couple them through a splitter, receivers will usually perceive each channel during a channel scan, even if it can no longer reliably process them. Unfortunately, this is easier for me to do, since I have more toys at my disposal than you do.


I'm not familiar with that model of receiver. Can you manually select a real channel that is not in the guide, using the remote and either the "." or "-"? With HR10s, which are controlled by DirecTV software, the autoscan can only check for channels within a zip code, but we can then directly enter a channel, and if we instruct the DVR to record it, it then forces it into the guide. I don't know what back-door remedies might be available for your tuner.


What's your zip code? If one market is closer than another, you may get away with using a cheaper, possibly indoor antenna to temporarily point at the closer stations, which you would combine with the better, rooftop antenna pointed at the weaker ones.


----------



## steve liebert




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you point an antenna in each direction and couple them through a splitter, receivers will usually perceive each channel during a channel scan, even if it can no longer reliably process them. Unfortunately, this is easier for me to do, since I have more toys at my disposal than you do.
> 
> 
> I'm not familiar with that model of receiver. Can you manually select a real channel that is not in the guide, using the remote and either the "." or "-"? With HR10s, which are controlled by DirecTV software, the autoscan can only check for channels within a zip code, but we can then directly enter a channel, and if we instruct the DVR to record it, it then forces it into the guide. I don't know what back-door remedies might be available for your tuner.
> 
> 
> What's your zip code? If one market is closer than another, you may get away with using a cheaper, possibly indoor antenna to temporarily point at the closer stations, which you would combine with the better, rooftop antenna pointed at the weaker ones.




I cannot find a way to "force" a manual entry into the memory. Why they delete previously saved channels when you do a new scan is baffling to me especially when there is no manual "backdoor". To have to wait the 3-5 minutes for a new scan when changing the rotor is annoying. I must say tho that I am somewhat of a glutten with the channels. I am at about 3000 ft. in SW Virginia and can receive the Charlotte, W/S G'boro, High Point markets in NC and the Roanoke,Lynchburg market in Va.


I do have access to a second rooftop antenna and had thought about using both of them at the same time to try and lock as many channels into memory as possible. Does a splitter "run" both directions, combining both signals into one? I also have two signal amplifiers. Should I amplify each signal before coupling or after they are combined?


Thanx for your advise.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *steve liebert* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1) Does a splitter "run" both directions, combining both signals into one? I also have two signal amplifiers.
> 
> 
> 2) Should I amplify each signal before coupling or after they are combined?



1) Yes.


2) Makes no difference.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *steve liebert* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Should I amplify each signal before coupling or after they are combined?
> 
> 
> Thanx for your advise.



It depends. If you are combining two identical antennas i.e. antenna stacking you would definitely want to combine before amplification. If you are combining two dissimilar signals, i.e. uhf and vhf, amplifying before the diplexer is more ideal if your setup allows.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *steve liebert* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I cannot find a way to "force" a manual entry into the memory. Why they delete previously saved channels when you do a new scan is baffling to me especially when there is no manual "backdoor".



I own the RCA ATSC11, and personally, I love this unit, because as a human, I have some control over this STB, which is not allowed by most of the newer units. Personally I HATE units that require auto scan before you can even watch a single channel. I own several digital receivers, but this is one of my favorites.


With this unit, there is no need to "force" a manual entry into the memory. Direct manual channel entry is allowed. Simply enter the true RF channel number of the station you want and as soon as the station decodes, the remapped, or virtual channel number plus any subchannels are automatically saved in memory. Yes, you are correct as far as I can tell, that anytime you do perform an auto scan, all previous stations are lost unless they are found again during the latest auto scan.


For your use, after adding all the stations you want, you might want to go back and mark the most watched stations as your "Favorite Channels" (found in the menu section) and then you can easily find and enter just those channels by pushing the "FAV CH+" button on the remote.


I hope this helps.


Steve


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *steve liebert* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I cannot find a way to "force" a manual entry into the memory. Why they delete previously saved channels when you do a new scan is baffling to me especially when there is no manual "backdoor". To have to wait the 3-5 minutes for a new scan when changing the rotor is annoying.



There appears to be no standard approach to scanning, retaining channel info from previous scans, or manually entering a channel. The Samsung SIR-T451 wipes out the channel lists on a scan, but it does allows for indirect manual input of channels. For example, if I enter the digital broadcast channel of a station not in the list, and it finds a channel there, that channel is added to the list. I discovered this accidentally when I entered a wrong channel number (12) and there was a digital station there. The Samsung suddenly displayed a channel 60 (the mapped channel #) for a station I did not know I could get. The station had gone full power in the months since the last scan. What is odd about the Samsung is that they don't list what the real channel #s are or provide for an update scan.


OTOH, I have a Sony DHG-HDD250 with NTSC, ATSC, and QAM tuners. It allows for both a full scan (wiping out previous lists) and an update scan. But I can not manually enter a digital channel number. There is no consistency in features or behavior in the ATSC receivers on the market. Has anyone ever asked the ATSC organization if they plan to address issues for people with a rotator antenna setup by specifying update scans and manual add of digital channels as recommended capabilities.


----------



## KeithAR2002




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> . The Samsung SIR-T451 wipes out the channel lists on a scan.



I got the T451 back in March, and I returned it for that reason. Main things I look for in a HD receiver:


1) An easy access signal meter (preferably a percentage reading)


2) Allows input of RF channel numbers.


3) An update scan that won't delete saved channels.



I have the ProBrand 3150 Plus, and all of these features are included. The only complaint I have is that when I delete a channel, it's not really deleted, it's just left on the channel list. I also have the US Digital box and my built in LG tuner. The program guide looks better on these two than the ProBrand...the ProBrand EPG just looks plain. Anyway, just my 2 cents


----------



## geogecko

Thanks Mike. Went back and got the 10 AWG stranded. It is pretty thick stranding anyways, so it should be fairly resistant to the elements.


One last question before installing this thing (the antenna got here, man, I didn't realize there was so much work to "unfold" it!). If I were to install the antenna in the attic, would it be better to be pointing it at a wall with decking and shingles, or at a wall that just had backing board, and bricks on the outside?


I may give the DB-8 one more try in the new (bricks) location, and see what the reception looks like, before mounting the Winegard on the roof. If it gets better, I may consider just mounting the Winegard in the attic. I'm just wondering if the DB-8, being multidirectional, may be picking up multipath in the attic, versus the unidirectional 7084P, which may solve the problem I'm having all together.


Comments?


----------



## st8kout

I've been trying to use a CM4221 in a somewhat fringe area. It's not that the stations are far away, it's the buildings surrounding me that, no doubt, are the problem.


I just ordered a CM7777 and 100' of RG6 to try to do something about it. This should give me room to roam to find a good spot for it outside.


As it is now it's hanging on the wall next to the tv where sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. It's like some mysterious, more art than science, hocus pocus trying to get good reception. Heck, my CBS station comes in 100% when I just lay it down on the floor







I tried the attic and that was a total bust, couldn't get squat. I even tried laying it down in the attic just above where I laid it down on the floor--nothing.


Another thing. Why is it so sensitive to any movement of the balun and coax? Moving the balun even half an inch between the connecting terminals will result in good reception of some channels and bad reception of others. Is it because the signal is not strong enough? I'm thinking of drilling a hole in the mast so I can feed the balun through the mast and connect it to the coax on the backside. Maybe this will minimize the feedline's influence on the antenna. Ideally, they should allow you to run the coax down through the mast, but you can't because of the connecting rivets.


Now all I need is cooler weather to work outside


----------



## RommelB

I know this is probably a noob question but since this is the official antenna thread i decided not to make another one...


Does anyone know if there's an indoor antenna capable of recieving HD signal from a tower 48 miles away? I have dish network and they don't have WB-HD and Fox-HD here (San Diego, CA). I have a mitsubishi wd-62627 HDTV and HD-DVR Vip622 reciever from dish network. Currently using component but will be using hdmi if it doesn't crash. Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advanced.


----------



## KeithAR2002

I'd think the only indoor antenna capabe of doing that would be the Silver Sensor, which if I'm not mistaken can be found at Circuit City. There are a couple outdoor antennas that would be small enough for indoors, though.


Example:

AntennasDirect DB2 


More than likely, you'll need an outdoor antenna, though. A good choice is the CM 4228 .


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RommelB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does anyone know if there's an indoor antenna capable of recieving HD signal from a tower 48 miles away?



Capable? Under ideal circumstances, yes. Otherwise, no.


----------



## RommelB

my problem is that i live in an apartment and i don't have space for a big antenna. I might be able to drill a smaller size to the wall but it would have to be behind the tv. Will the antenna being right behind the tv effect it's signal? I have a 62" rear projection and the antenna would be no more than a couple of feet behind it. How about those terk antennas or little ones you throw on top of a table or something?


----------



## Kolchak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RommelB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Will the antenna being right behind the tv effect it's signal?



Your chances of receiving a stable signal diminish with this approach. A possible compromise between a small indoor and large outdoor would be the 4221. http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4221.htm 

Your best chance will be to place on a wall by a window facing the towers.


----------



## geogecko

I give up. I'm just going to install it on the roof. I was going to try it in the attic, but now seeing how much effort is required to assemble it, it would probably take me a couple hours, just to assemble and disassemble it, if it did not work well enough in the attic.


The 7084P is, well, wow, very large. I have the two halves, (back side only half assembled), assembled, sitting in the garage. We'll see what my wife says, when she comes home tonight.


Okay, I thought the wide bars were supposed to be pointed at the towers, but it appears that the widest bars go away from the towers, correct?


----------



## SEMIJim




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geogecko* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Okay, I thought the wide bars were supposed to be pointed at the towers, but it appears that the widest bars go away from the towers, correct?



Yes, the "pointy" end is pointed at the signal source.


And the "bars" to which you refer are properly called "elements."


----------



## geogecko

Thank you sir.


It's funny, they keep using all these terms, such as UHF directors, reflector booms, expecting your average joe to know what they are...


...wife just got home. "That's going to look tacky..."


Oh, well.


----------



## geogecko

LOL. =)


Yes, sir!


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RommelB* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> my problem is that i live in an apartment and i don't have space for a big antenna. I might be able to drill a smaller size to the wall but it would have to be behind the tv. Will the antenna being right behind the tv effect it's signal? I have a 62" rear projection and the antenna would be no more than a couple of feet behind it. How about those terk antennas or little ones you throw on top of a table or something?



There are only a few reports for Vista and nearby San Marcos areas found at hdtv.forsandiego.com and www.hdtvpub.com . They all use a mast mounted outdoor antenna. Other than dropouts for distant XETV-DT, reception is very good for both S.D. and L.A. with an outdoor antenna.


However, unless you are in the hills overlooking Vista, you are probably too far away to use an indoor antenna for 6.1 (XETV-DT) and may have problems with other S.D. stations, esp 8.1 and 10.1 from Mt. Soledad.


The RPTV will effect an antenna to some extent, depending on how much metal is in the frame....but mostly it's empty air and glass. You could try hiding an antenna behind it--but try to keep it as high as possible.....


The highly rated Silver Sensor antenna has insufficient gain for your location. Listed in increasing order of effectiveness, you could try one of the more effective indoor antennas such as the Radio Shack RS 15-624 Double Bow, the Antennas Direct DB-2 2-Bay or even the Winegard PR-4400 4-Bay (my favorite "indoor" antenna, which is less obtrusive than the CM-4221 or DB-4):
http://shop.willyselectronics.com/browse.cfm/4,163.htm 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=SPR4400 


You should also use a good low noise VHF/UHF Preamp, such as the WG AP-8700 or CM-7777:
http://shop.willyselectronics.com/browse.cfm/4,73.htm 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=ANC7777 


However, indoor reception at your distance can be very difficult, so be prepared to experiment and take advantage of liberal return policies.


A more reliable alternative would be to order "Limited Basic Cable" from Cox Cable for $12.50/mo and watch all the local HD stations via your HDTV's unencrypted QAM tuner (no CableCARD required)....at least until the missing local HD channels finally show up on Dish and DirecTV.


----------



## geogecko

Gotta go to a meeting now, but it's already blasted hot out there. I spent a couple hours assembling the rest of the antenna, and sawing about a foot off the 5 foot mast. Then I got the ground wire attached to the tripod, cable about where it needs to go, both zip tied to the tripod.


Hopefully, when I get back, I will be able to zip tie about 15 feet of the two cables together, which will be the part running down the roof, and then depending on how hot it is, may see about mounting at least the tripod on the roof.


I think I'll have to take the tripod and antenna up as two pieces, because it would be too clumbsy to take them both up there, put together.


I'm also wondering if I got enough coax. Looks like I may have to get some more to make it...


Sorry I reported back before getting it up! Oh, yeah, I think it's funny that they tell you to try and hit the rafters with the lag screws. Yeah, right. The spacing isn't right but to hit just one rafter. I think the decking will be good enough.


----------



## RommelB

thanks holl_ands for your post. Everyone told me my chances of getting these channels with an indoor or outdoor antenna are slim to none. I'll give it a try with the info you provided and if doesn't work out I'll just return it. Thanks for your help guys.


----------



## geogecko

To align, rotate mast in tripod, or antenna around mast?


----------



## geogecko

Well, as luck would have it, guess what came in the mail today? An updated version of the "Design Guidelines and Review Procedures for Residential Modifications," i.e., HOA restrictions.


Under the heading, "Disallowed Items at ..."



> Quote:
> Shall include but not be limited to the following:
> 
> ...
> 
> Exterior antenna of any kind with the exception of miniature satellite dishes as detailed in these Guidelines.
> 
> ...



Now, before we jump the gun, and everyone posts this link (unless this is outdated):
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html 


There are some questions to answer.


First, what exactly does this mean?



> Quote:
> Q: What types of antennas are covered by the rule?
> 
> 
> A: The rule applies to the following types of antennas:
> 
> 
> (1) A "dish" antenna that is one meter (39.37") or less in diameter (or any size dish if located in Alaska) and is designed to receive direct broadcast satellite service, including direct-to-home satellite service, or to receive or transmit fixed wireless signals via satellite.
> 
> 
> (2) An antenna that is one meter or less in diameter or diagonal measurement and is designed to receive video programming services via broadband radio service (wireless cable) or to receive or transmit fixed wireless signals other than via satellite.
> 
> 
> (3) An antenna that is designed to receive local television broadcast signals. Masts higher than 12 feet above the roofline may be subject to local permitting requirements.
> 
> 
> In addition, antennas covered by the rule may be mounted on "masts" to reach the height needed to receive or transmit an acceptable quality signal (e.g. maintain line-of-sight contact with the transmitter or view the satellite). Masts higher than 12 feet above the roofline may be subject to local permitting requirements for safety purposes. Further, masts that extend beyond an exclusive use area may not be covered by this rule.



I'm guessing that #2 is not the one that applies, but #3 (I hope)?


Because, at this point, my HD7084P is much larger than 1 meter in diameter, 131" to be exact.


Please help me understand this, before mounting the tripod. At this point, I'm stopping work. Also, if I do go ahead with this, because the FCC says that HOA cannot impose these restrictions, do I have a long battle ahead of me, or get in danger of being on the blacklist or something?


----------



## milehighmike

#3 is applicable to OTA tv. Apparently, the author of your HOA guidelines didn't do any fine tuning of the wording homework. An OTA antenna is not a "miniature satellite dish" and I don't think a reference to Alaska in necessary in Texas!


----------



## DougRuss




> Quote:
> I painted the dish pole brown to make it look like a tree.



Yep.... that sure looks like a Tree to Me !!...........................



maibe aftwer aphew beirs ?












Now this looks like a Tree:


----------



## geogecko

You all are crazy.


So, do they have ground to say I can't do it, or not? I spent about 2 hours this evening, folding enough of the antenna up to be able to get it into the attic, on the tripod, and still no dice. Strangely enough, it's almost exactly like the reception of the DB-8, minus the fact that I was able to get channel 9.


So, I've now got it folded back up, out of the attic, and in the garage, awaiting an attempt tomorrow, to just put it on the roof, and see if I get any better reception. I'm going to drill the eve hole to get the coax in, set the tripod up top, with antenna, and see what my reception looks like.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geogecko* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> To align, rotate mast in tripod, or antenna around mast?



This question reads like a set-up for a Polish joke.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geogecko* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...So, do they have ground to say I can't do it, or not? I spent about 2 hours this evening, folding enough of the antenna up to be able to get it into the attic, on the tripod, and still no dice.



As my father's army sargent used to say, "We can't make you do anything... but we can make you wish you did".


Restrictions that prohibit, or unreasonably delay the installation of or increase the cost of an off-air antenna installation are UNENFORCEABLE, as long as the antenna is attached to and over a surface that is under your exclusive control, the mast is no taller than 12 feet, and it is not in a Historic District. But someday you may need to enlist the support of those who oppose your antenna installation to get the HOA to pay for something that you want done...


----------



## geogecko

Oh, well. Already too hot outside, and just got off the roof, and it won't be me installing this antenna, that's for sure. I'd need to make at least 2-3 trips to the mounting location, and as hard as it was to hang Christmas lights, I now remember why I didn't put lights on this particular peak.


I figure I've already got too many negatives going against me, I guess I'll have to live with the reception I already have, or hire someone to do it.


----------



## cpcat

Got this a few weeks ago. It replaces a Research Communications 9250 HDTV LNA I had been using for UHF. The HDTV LNA was apparently fried by a near-strike or a power surge.


For a little background, I'm in the fringe with closest major cities 65, 70, 110, and 135 miles away. I have only one full power PBS station at around 45 miles and another full power CBS, PBS at 55, but otherwise anything around me is low power or FM.


I went back to a CM 7777 initially after the 9250 went down. Performance was obviously inferior with almost constant dropouts on a digital 30 from Knoxville 65 miles away which was really annoying. I'm not saying the 7777 isn't excellent for most, mind you, but for me it wasn't working. The 9250 had given me consistent performance and I'd gotten accustomed to it.


I really didn't want to spend the bucks for another 9250 so I took another look at the Sitco PA24 for broadband UHF. It seemed good via specs and also more robust than the 9250 so I called Sitco and bought it. It comes with a +24V power supply made by Triax (Denmark). The PA24 itself is also stamped "made in Denmark". Sitco is located in Porland, OR.


Shipment/ordering was a breeze. The first thing you notice about the PA24 is how rugged it is. This is obviously a commercial product and I'd expect high reliability. Installation was easy except I had to modify the mast clamp slightly to accept a 3/4 inch mast. It's designed for larger diameters. Initial performance was good but only slightly better than the CM 7777. I can say I was a little dissappointed. I then tried it with a front-end filter (high port of a low/hi separator) and performance improved significantly. Basically, the performance I think nearly equals that of the 9250. My channel 30 is back without dropouts. Analogs seem noticeably better with the PA24 over the 7777 and probably equivialent to the 9250.


Overall, I've had fairly extensive experience with 4 high performance UHF preamps in the last couple of years. The CM 7777, RC 9248, RC 9250, and now the Sitco PA24. I still use the RC 9248 for high band vhf. I'd rate them accordingly overall for long distance UHF performance:


RC 9250

Sitco PA24

RC 9248

CM 7777


The advantage to the Sitco for ruggedness at least on initial impressions. I guess time will tell for sure.

Sitco PA24 Broadband UHF


----------



## geogecko

LOL, now that's an antenna setup.


So you think the lower frequency UHF was causing your preamp to get saturated, therefore, not allowing your weaker frequencies to be amplified?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geogecko* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So you think the lower frequency UHF was causing your preamp to get saturated, therefore, not allowing your weaker frequencies to be amplified?



Most likely it was FM causing the problem. A high/lo separator separates high band vhf and up (including UHF) from low band. Using the high port is a very effective way of trapping FM. Basically everything below channel 7 is filtered out. The high band vhf part of the antenna system is further diplexed after that with a UHF/VHF diplexer. I also use the high port of a hi/lo separator in front of the high band amplifier.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Got this a few weeks ago. It replaces a Research Communications 9250 HDTV LNA I had been using for UHF. The HDTV was apparently fried by a near-strike or a power surge.
> 
> 
> For a little background, I'm in the fringe with closest major cities 65, 70, 110, and 135 miles away. I have only one full power PBS station at around 45 miles and another full power CBS, PBS at 55, but otherwise anything around me is low power or FM.
> 
> 
> I went back to a CM 7777 initially after the 9250 went down. Performance was obviously inferior with almost constant dropouts on a digital 30 from Knoxville 65 miles away which was really annoying. I'm not saying the 7777 isn't excellent for most, mind you, but for me it wasn't working. The 9250 had given me consistent performance and I'd gotten accustomed to it.
> 
> 
> I really didn't want to spend the bucks for another 9250 so I took another look at the Sitco PA24 for broadband UHF. It seemed good via specs and also more robust than the 9250 so I called Sitco and bought it. It comes with a +24V power supply made by Triax (Denmark). The PA24 itself is also stamped "made in Denmark". Sitco is located in Porland, OR.
> 
> 
> Shipment/ordering was a breeze. The first thing you notice about the PA24 is how rugged it is. This is obviously a commercial product and I'd expect high reliability. Installation was easy except I had to modify the mast clamp slightly to accept a 3/4 inch mast. It's designed for larger diameters. Initial performance was good but only slightly better than the CM 7777. I can say I was a little dissappointed. I then tried it with a front-end filter (high port of a low/hi separator) and performance improved significantly. Basically, the performance I think nearly equals that of the 9250. My channel 30 is back without dropouts. Analogs seem noticeably better with the PA24 over the 7777 and probably equivialent to the 9250.
> 
> 
> Overall, I've had fairly extensive experience with 4 high performance UHF preamps in the last couple of years. The CM 7777, RC 9248, RC 9250, and now the Sitco PA24. I still use the RC 9248 for high band vhf. I'd rate them accordingly overall for long distance UHF performance:
> 
> 
> RC 9250
> 
> Sitco PA24
> 
> RC 9248
> 
> CM 7777
> 
> 
> The advantage to the Sitco for ruggedness at least on initial impressions. I guess time will tell for sure.
> 
> Sitco PA24 Broadband UHF



OK,now how much was it?


I've had the 9250 back in the air for about 3 weeks,but I disconnect everything if any storms are in the area.It does work well....when it works!


----------



## cpcat

468.00 including the power supply and 2nd day air shipping.


I looked back and I paid 163.00 sterling for the 9250 including the ps, weatherproof case and shipping.


Hopefully I'm paying for reliability.







I guess I was remembering the 9250 costing more.


I may have to double check my 9250 to see if it works. I thought yours was fried too?


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DougRuss* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yep.... that sure looks like a Tree to Me !!...........................
> 
> 
> 
> maibe aftwer aphew beirs ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now this looks like a Tree:



This reminds me of something I think I heard either David Brenner or Gary Shandling say in an interview. He was talking about the moose hunters wearing green clothing with irregular black lines drawn on them so that if the moose saw them, it would think they were trees, and he asked, "If a Moose came into my livingroom with a picture of a refrigerator taped to it, do you think I'd say, 'Look. There's a refrigerator!' ?"


----------



## st8kout




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Most likely it was FM causing the problem. A high/lo separator separates high band vhf and up (including UHF) from low band. Using the high port is a very effective way of trapping FM. Basically everything below channel 7 is filtered out. The high band vhf part of the antenna system is further diplexed after that with a UHF/VHF diplexer. I also use the high port of a hi/lo separator in front of the high band amplifier.



While a $60 CM7777 cannot be expected to do as well as the other preamps you have, did you use the FM trap on the 7777? Also, doesn't it also have two separate amp inputs, one for VHF and the other for UHF?


----------



## Keenan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DougRuss* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yep.... that sure looks like a Tree to Me !!...........................
> 
> 
> 
> maibe aftwer aphew beirs ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now this looks like a Tree:



Naw, now this one really looks like a tree.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *st8kout* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> While a $60 CM7777 cannot be expected to do as well as the other preamps you have, did you use the FM trap on the 7777? Also, doesn't it also have two separate amp inputs, one for VHF and the other for UHF?



It has an internal FM trap as well as separate vhf/uhf inputs. Using the uhf input and having the internal switch on "separate" engages an internal uhf/vhf diplexer so in effect it already has a front end filter. I have tried it just for kicks with an added filter and it doesn't make any difference. The internal FM trap on the CM 7777 _does_ make a difference if using the vhf input or if it's configured for combined vhf/uhf input.


None of the other amps listed employ any front-end filtering so you have to provide your own if necessary.


The newest RC amp (9253 I think) looks to be a 9250 with an added front-end filter.

http://www.researchcomms.com/hdtv.html


----------



## AntAltMike

When you are trying to process distant signals, it is always a good idea to have a spectrum analyzer available. I once serviced a master antenna system on a property adjacent to a tower which was experiencing a terrible amplifier overload. My spectrum analyzer showed that something was broadcasting at 369Mhz and, just through ingress, it was 20dB stronger than the other balanced signals. Fortunately for me, this was in a 36 channel private cable system, so I called Eagle Comtronics and they sent me half a dozen channel cable channel 42 lowpass filters (passes to 336 Mhz cleanly and has about 50dB of rejection from about 350 Mhz) and I installed one on the input side of each distribution amplifier to eliminate the overload.


Now, suppose a residential antenna system was trying to receive UHF signals in that locality. How deep and how sharp do you think the highpass edge of a UHF pre-amp's input filter is? I know from experience that I can pass enough 330 Mhz signal from a UHF remote control through the UHF side of a VHF/UHF separator/combiner for it to satisfy the input needs of a receiver, because I sometimes do that so that I can send the UHF remote control signal back to a receiver on the same coax that is furnishing a modulated channel 3 signal to a distant TV, so I doubt that the input filter of a preamp is any sharper or deeper than that. I've also sent cable channels up to about 29 or 30 (about 250 to 260Mhz) through the lowpass side of a VHF/UHF separator, so there are broadcast MMDS signals that will surely pass through the internal lowpass filter on a VHF amplifier if it is similarly contoured.


Eagle Comtronics, Microwave Filter and Communications and Energy Corp. all have off-the-shelf "tier traps" that can shore up the edges of your broadcast bands that are available off-the-shelf and can be bought in single quantities for about $20 each. A channel 13 lowpass filter and a cable channel 65 or slightly lower high pass filter will definitively eliminate a lot of possible ingress range, and will do so cheaper than paying someone a couple hundred bucks to check your reception with a spectrum analyzer, and even if you paid someone to do that test, the interfering carrier might be intermittent and not present when your spectrum was analyzed. If you know the highest UHF channel you need to pass, you might benefit from a UHF lowpass filter as well. I think Channel Vision has a cable channel 104 or 105 lowpass filter available from their retailers that passes everything up to about UHF channel 49 cleanly and you can probably live with its channel 50 and 51 performance unless they are your most distant channels.


Midband reject filters, also called A-I filters (120 -174Mhz) tend to degrade the visual carrier of channel 7 by about 5 dB or so, but my market has strong broadcast interference that lands in cable channel 20, which is just three channels below broadcast channel 7, and I doubt that consumer preamps effectively trap out midband interference, if they trap it out at all.


The insrtion loss of these cylindrical, tier traps has always measured under 1dB when I have checked it, and their RF shielding is exceptional.


----------



## st8kout

I found I could improve the performance of my CM 4221 by running the coax and balun inside the mast. The only expense was a rubber gasket for the hole from Home Depot.


It would have been nice if the pigtails of the balun had been about 1/4 inch longer, but it does work as is, and overall works much better than it did before. I get a noticeable improvment in reception. Maybe I can find a balun with longer pigtails, or lengthen them.


I think the feedline outside the mast, no matter how I ran it, was detuning the antenna. Why didn't Channel Master think of this?


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This question reads like a set-up for a Polish joke.



Hey! Hey!


I resemble that remark!












(Actually, I haven't got an iota of Slav in me







.)


----------



## geogecko




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey! Hey!
> 
> 
> I resemble that remark!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Actually, I haven't got an iota of Slav in me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .)



LOL...yeah, I'm like 1/4th or 1/8th Polish...or something...but German...etc...


----------



## Davinleeds




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *st8kout* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I found I could improve the performance of my CM 4221 by running the coax and balun inside the mast. The only expense was a rubber gasket for the hole from Home Depot.
> 
> 
> It would have been nice if the pigtails of the balun had been about 1/4 inch longer, but it does work as is, and overall works much better than it did before. I get a noticeable improvment in reception. Maybe I can find a balun with longer pigtails, or lengthen them.
> 
> 
> I think the feedline outside the mast, no matter how I ran it, was detuning the antenna. Why didn't Channel Master think of this?



This is something I will try on my CM4228. Thanks. Info on the HDTVprimer.com website talks about the balun taking 3db and suggests using 300ohm from antenna to a preamp accepting 300 to achieve minimal loss. Any experience with this? Thanks


----------



## ctdish

I measured the loss on the baluns that came with CM 4248 antennas and they were about 0.5 dB at channel 50.

John


----------



## st8kout




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Davinleeds* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This is something I will try on my CM4228. Thanks. Info on the HDTVprimer.com website talks about the balun taking 3db and suggests using 300ohm from antenna to a preamp accepting 300 to achieve minimal loss. Any experience with this? Thanks



When I was shopping for a preamp I wondered why more preamps didn't have a 300 ohm input. Everyone seemed to like the CM7777 so I went with that. Just got it this afternoon and I'm sorry to report that so far, it makes no difference, at all. Period. I went back and forth with the comparisons--no difference. My first thought was that it was not working, so I tried using just the vhf input (after throwing the switch) and it did improve my local ch 2-1 which is at the top end of the vhf spectrum, but then all the other channels were suppressed.


To add insult to injury, the one I got from Solid Signal is obviously a returned item, given the scratches of being previously mounted on a mast. I guess the former owner didn't see any difference either. This was supposed to be a new item, not an open box sale. Thanks a lot Solid Signal--NOT! You'll won't be getting any more of my money. You can stick your 15% restocking fee...sorry, I just needed to vent


----------



## geogecko

LOL, I got my 7777 from them too, and it was missing the wall screws for the power injector! I kept reading the instructions, and it said they were inlcuded, but no matter where I looked, I couldn't find them... Not a big deal, since I didn't mount that part to a wall anyway.


----------



## st8kout

Now that you mention it, I'm also missing the same screws. *sigh*


----------



## geogecko




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *st8kout* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Now that you mention it, I'm also missing the same screws. *sigh*



Maybe it was supposed to read, "Not Provided."


----------



## Rammitinski

I could go for the obvious joke here, but I'll manage to resist.


----------



## DougRuss




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *st8kout* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Now that you mention it, I'm also missing the same screws. *sigh*



It takes a man to admit to that !!


----------



## st8kout

(lol)


----------



## tyromark

You know, this is really odd.

I got a FMSS omnidirectional FM antenna from Solid Signal, and it was missing the balun, which the instructions described as included. I called and they sent one promptly, apologized, etc. but these reports are awfullllllllly coincidental.....


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tyromark* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You know, this is really odd.
> 
> I got a FMSS omnidirectional FM antenna from Solid Signal, and it was missing the balun, which the instructions described as included. I called and they sent one promptly, apologized, etc. but these reports are awfullllllllly coincidental.....



When I buy something cheap through the mail, I really don't give a damn whether it is new or not, unless it is a prophylactic.


----------



## ocelot4ark

(WARNING! NEWB!)

Okay, I used to live in an area where picking up OTA was very easy. I went and bought a philips indoor antenna and VOILA, I had HD. Well, I've since moved. My philips doesn't work anymore due to, I suppose, distance. I went to antennaweb and entered my new information. Here's what it's telling me for local DTV channels:


RED - vhf - KLTVDT 7.1 - ABC - Tyler, TX - 268 degrees - 21.3 miles - Frequency 10

Violet - uhf - KMSSDT 34.1 - Fox - Shreveport, LA - 75 degrees - 54.6 miles - Frequency 34

Violet - uhf - KTBSDT 3.1 - ABC - Shreveport, LA - 77 degrees - 54.7 miles - Frequency 28

Violet - uhf - KFXKDT 31.1 - Fox - Longview, TX - 118 degrees - 9.7 miles - Frequency 31


Now, at minimum I'd like to get all of these channels. However, I'd also LOVE to be able to get some channels from Little Rock (about 250 miles to my NE) so that I can maybe get SEC football games. Heck, getting Dallas (120 miles West) would be great as well for when the NBA comes back. My TV has a built in QAM and ATSC tuner (I think those are the right acronyms!).


I currently live in a duplex. Getting something up on the roof is probably not an option. I could put something in the backyard or indoors. It also needs to be somewhat mobile, as I'll probably be moving in 5 months or so. Does anyone have any ideas?


What's a good one that will get me at least local (within 60 miles)? How bout local AND extended (up to 300 miles or so)? I really appreciate any help you guys could give me!


Josh


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ocelot4ark* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Now, at minimum I'd like to get all of these channels. However, I'd also LOVE to be able to get some channels from Little Rock (about 250 miles to my NE) so that I can maybe get SEC football games. Heck, getting Dallas (120 miles West) would be great as well for when the NBA comes back. My TV has a built in QAM and ATSC tuner (I think those are the right acronyms!).



For 50 miles, you'll need a big outdoor antenna. And, for 120 miles a lot of luck. It probably won't happen. 300 miles? That's DX'ing range. It won't happen.

....jc


----------



## ocelot4ark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For 50 miles, you'll need a big outdoor antenna. And, for 120 miles a lot of luck. It probably won't happen. 300 miles? That's DX'ing range. It won't happen.
> 
> ....jc



Do you have any recommendations for a big outdoor antenna? Would it even work that well if it was just on a tripod?


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ocelot4ark* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do you have any recommendations for a big outdoor antenna? Would it even work that well if it was just on a tripod?



For UHF a CM 4228 or AD 91XG, for both UHF & VHF a Winegard 8200. Height is everything. A tripod might work, but something higher is almost always a better choice.

....jc


----------



## ocelot4ark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TotallyPreWired* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For UHF a CM 4228 or AD 91XG, for both UHF & VHF a Winegard 8200. Height is everything. A tripod might work, but something higher is almost always a better choice.
> 
> ....jc



Great, thanks for the advice. I'm going to run by radio shack on the way home and pick up a VU-75 XR and a 15-1892. I'm hoping I'll get lucky and one of those will work for me. If not, maybe I'll just go all out and read up on this DX stuff.


----------



## etcarroll

Try the following link;

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/sizing.html


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ocelot4ark* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Great, thanks for the advice. I'm going to run by radio shack on the way home and pick up a VU-75 XR and a 15-1892. I'm hoping I'll get lucky and one of those will work for me. If not, maybe I'll just go all out and read up on this DX stuff.



Save your money! Neither of those antennas will likely do the job. As suggested read the HDTV Primer. A wealth of info there! Buy quality stuff from CM or Winegard(and others), and you'll likely have a better chance of success.

....jc


----------



## ocelot4ark

Well in that case, I'll just save up and try to get some really good gear and go from there. I wasn't really wanting to spend >$100 on this. With all the mounting stuff I'd have to do, and it being a rent house with no roof access, I guess it looks like I'll just have to wait if there are no viable indoor options. I should be in my own house in another 1.5 years, so might as well wait til then I suppose. Thanks anyway guys.


----------



## Kolchak

For deep fringe reception:

1) CM 4228 (UHF)

2) Wade-delhi VIP-306 (VHF)

3) CM titan 7777 preamp

4) 30' + (antenna height)

5) CM 9521a rotator


Note: Reception is difficult beyond 70 miles due to curvature of the earth


----------



## st8kout




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When I buy something cheap through the mail, I really don't give a damn whether it is new or not, unless it is a prophylactic.



Not me. It should be as advertised. If it says open-box, then I know what to expect. I gave Solid Signal the lowest rating available on the BizRate survey which btw, was a big mistake for taking the bait for their survey. I'm suddenly getting bombarded with spam. You cannot even unsubscribe from BizRate. You click the Unsubscribe link and all you get are more opportunities for more surveys.


----------



## Davinleeds

Any tried tilting the antenna (CM 4228) , or any other, up towards the tree (horizon) line ? This is another suggestion I've read. My antennna protection is up to date.


----------



## texasbrit

Josh, what's your zip code? What about the other Tyler digital stations?


----------



## ocelot4ark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasbrit* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Josh, what's your zip code? What about the other Tyler digital stations?



I'm in 75693.


I went by radio shack on the way home and got one of their internal antennas. It was actually able to pull in the ABC from shreveport (54 miles away). I'd keep it, but it only gets two other stations and neither of those come in NEAR as well. BUT, this does give me SOME hope that an external ant will really work for the areas i'm trying to reach.


----------



## sebenste

Hey gang,


SOmeone on the Chicago OTA board wants an antenna on his roof. Does anyone know of anyone who still does that stuff for residential housing in the area, besides the one in Morris?


----------



## texasbrit

Josh - antennaweb seems to be severely lacking in info on your local stations. There are at least four in Tyler - KLTV, KFXK, KYTX, KETK - alll with digital stations although a couple of them have not started HD yet ("soon"). You should be able to get all of those no problem. An outside antenna like the CM4228 with a rotator will give you the best shot at getting the distant stations. The CM4228 is UHF but with good performance down to channel 7 in the hi-VHF band.


----------



## SCriss

Perhaps this is a dumb question. Here's my situation.


I am 6.8 miles from one tower that carries two channels I want, one uhf, the other Ch. 13 vhf. I am 4.8 miles from another tower that has two uhf channels I want. They are at 148 and 153 degrees, so in the scheme of the universe, practically right next to each other. I have several 30'+ trees in my yard between me and the towers, no other obstructions. If anything, the ground I am on is at a higher elevation than ground on which the towers sit.


I have an amplified indoor rabbit ear/ring uhf/vhf antenna that will pull any one of the stations in at 90 "signal strength". The prolem is that I cannot tune them all in at the same time, and a windy day forces me to SD cable reception. So I'd like to get a small outdoor antenna that will be more reliable in crappy weather.


Dumb question: Will a small UHF antenna, like the small Winegard 4400 or the larger 8800 pull in the VHF ch. 13?


I don't want a huge yagi style uhf/vhf antenna, so if I am stuck with a dual antenna, I'll probably go with the Winegard/Terk Squareshooter.


But if I can get away with it, I'd like to just get a cheaper, low profile UHF. So is it possible to get ch. 13 with a UHF?


----------



## snarfshark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SCriss* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Perhaps this is a dumb question. Here's my situation.
> 
> 
> I am 6.8 miles from one tower that carries two channels I want, one uhf, the other Ch. 13 vhf. I am 4.8 miles from another tower that has two uhf channels I want. They are at 148 and 153 degrees, so in the scheme of the universe, practically right next to each other. I have several 30'+ trees in my yard between me and the towers, no other obstructions. If anything, the ground I am on is at a higher elevation than ground on which the towers sit.
> 
> 
> Dumb question: Will a small UHF antenna, like the small Winegard 4400 or the larger 8800 pull in the VHF ch. 13?
> 
> 
> I don't want a huge yagi style uhf/vhf antenna, so if I am stuck with a dual antenna, I'll probably go with the Winegard/Terk Squareshooter.
> 
> 
> But if I can get away with it, I'd like to just get a cheaper, low profile UHF. So is it possible to get ch. 13 with a UHF?



Most UHF antennas will receive high band vhf (including ch 13). Some do a better job than others.


Check out the bottom of this page, there is a section about using common UHF antennas for high VHF reception:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


At your distance I would say you have a good shot at receiving ch 13 with a UHF antenna. But everyone's location is unique, topography and man-made obstructions greatly affect signal strength.


Best advice I can give is to purchase an antenna from a source which will accept returns. Watch out for restocking fees from Internet vendors. Then get a couple of sections of antenna mast (cheap from RS) and some sort of tripod mount. A bicycle repair stand can work well at providing a temporary base to which you can clamp the mast. With a 10 ft mast you should be able to get some idea of whether you can receive a good signal, prior to attempting a permanent install.


----------



## bobchase

Quote:

Originally Posted by *ocelot4ark*
I'm in 75693.


I went by radio shack on the way home and got one of their internal antennas. It was actually able to pull in the ABC from shreveport (54 miles away). I'd keep it, but it only gets two other stations and neither of those come in NEAR as well. BUT, this does give me SOME hope that an external ant will really work for the areas i'm trying to reach.
There is not a lot of TV out your way. In the attached document, if you look at the "Transmitter Antenna" column, the red line is pointing towards you. Knowing that, if you look at KETZ-DT, they are broadcasting away from you. (You are on the back-side of their antenna and will get very little signal from them.) A similar situation exists for KLTS-DT. Other stations, like KSHV-DT, are at low power and/or broadcasting from a low antenna. Again, a significantly reduced signal.



Bob

 

default.pdf 314.6416015625k . file


----------



## texasbrit

Bob - I'm a bit confused here. One of my friends says there are three other stations in Longview/Tyler, all with digital transmissions - KFXK, KYTX and KETX. They don't show up on your report (or in antennaweb). Maybe this is because both programs use the same database and these stations are missing???


----------



## dabl

I'd like some advice on using antenna preamps and distribution amps.


I'm about 3-4 miles from most of the transmitters in my area I use for getting off the air digital signal via antenna. My Lat-Long is: 39.87 (39°52') | -86.1 (-86°8')


I have Zenith Silver Sensor antenna in my attic currently feeding a single TV, a Samsung HL-R6167. I get pretty good results with all the channels but do see occaisional drop outs on several at certain times of the season/day.


I also have regular analog cable and currently split that 3 ways, 1 to a cable modem, 1 to the HL-R6167 and 1 to another TV.


I'll soon have a need to feed more sources since I'm adding an HTPC to the mix. The PC will have a max of 2 HD tuners and 2 analog tuners.


I'll want to distribute my antenna signal to 3 places: the Samsung TV and the 2 PC tuners.


I'll want to distribute the analog cable to 4 places: the cable modem, the Samsung TV, and the 2 TV tuners. I don't care about the other tv for now....


I just started looking at preamps and distribution amps and have seen some recent talk about the Winegard HDP-269 which seems like it might be a good choice for my application to use for the antenna pre-amp given my close proximity and the HDP-269's particular features. I'd be interested in any comments and/or specific other recommendations about that.


I'm wondering about using a distribution amp following the HDP-269 and for the analog cable. I was thinking that I could then get rid of the splitter completely and that that would be a good thing. Is my thinking correct on this?


I was looking at the Channel Master 3044. Would that model be good choice? Maybe there's something better? I was also looking at the Channel Plus

DA-506BID. Are the antenna preamps and the distribution amps a 'get what you pay for' thing? Will a DA-506BID be better than a 3044. What about Radio Shack or Recoton? I was thinking in the case that one or more of these devices actually made things WORSE it might be nice to try out something I could get locally and could return without a restocking fee etc.


I'm unclear about one issue in general about using a preamp with an attic antenna, the physical proximity of the AC power outlet to the antenna itself.

I haven't found very good clear instruction at the various antenna preamp manufacturer websites I've checked (Channel Master, Winegard etc) but I

gather that in most cases an antenna preamp configuration assumes that AC power is NOT located particularly close to the actual antenna?


Would there be a significant advantage to having AC power in my attic near the antenna so the cable run from the preamp to the antenna could be kept very short? I could accomplish this easily as I have a friend who's an electrician and could easily install an AC outlet in the attic for the preamp if it would be a significant help. Would this make any difference depending on the model (Winegard HDP-269 vs Winegard 8700 vs Channel Master 7777) etc?


Re: my antenna and occaisional drop outs, I'm wondering if those are possibly multipath related. I've heard that some PC tuner cards can actually handle multipath issues significantly better than some TV tuners so I was hoping that I might see that kind of improvement on the HDTV inputs. On the otherhand I'd have no problem springing for a better/more appropriate antenna for an attic mount if it would be worthwhile and would be all ears on that


thanks for any comments,


--Don


----------



## Neil L

texasbrit,


You can get info about those stations on the Official FCC website .


----------



## abbygayle

I'm looking at rotors right now. Are radio antenna rotors and tv antenna rotors basically the same? Will they do the same job? I have a UHF and VHF antenna that I'll need to mount. Preferably an automatic rotor if those work ok, but I didn't know if I need to be sure that I DON'T get a radio antenna rotor by accident.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasbrit* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Bob - I'm a bit confused here. One of my friends says there are three other stations in Longview/Tyler, all with digital transmissions - KFXK, KYTX and KETX. They don't show up on your report (or in antennaweb). Maybe this is because both programs use the same database and these stations are missing???



The stations are there. Antennaweb is very conservative, it doesn't think that you'll be able to receive them. Take KFXK for instance. It's only broadcasting at 0.25kW if they haven't gone to full power yet. And, the digital antenna is only 27 meters above the terrain(the analog antenna is 381 meters).

....jc


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *abbygayle* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm looking at rotors right now. Are radio antenna rotors and tv antenna rotors basically the same? Will they do the same job? I have a UHF and VHF antenna that I'll need to mount. Preferably an automatic rotor if those work ok, but I didn't know if I need to be sure that I DON'T get a radio antenna rotor by accident.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you are combining a vhf and a uhf the standard popular tv rotor, the cm 9521A is not enough rotor
> 
> 
> call norm's rotor service for the better choice for your system.
> 
> http://www.rotorservice.com



The Radio Shack and Channel Master rotors are physically about the same. In fact, I think they buy the rotor mechanism from the same manufacturer.


The only cheap rotor product I personally have ever had trouble with was the controller box with the Centronnix rotors, but they don't even make those any more.


A few years ago, there was a temporary rotor supply problem because of some problem the consumer rotors were having and their manufacture was temporarily suspended, but I have heard no complaints since then.


The only time someone might have a problem with residential-grade rotors is if they develop a significant strain on the rotor, which can happen with multiple antennas or antennas with reflector screens (Channel Master 4221, 4228), but ordinarily, if you cut the mast piece that the antenna is mounted to short (typically, 2 feet or less, you shouldn't have a problem.


If you have to make it much longer because of the vertical span of your antenna array, you can buy a thrust bearing for, I think, around $40 that will solve the leverage problem.


The "better choice" rotor in the furnished link costs over $1,200. I'd move to another house in another market where I wouldn't need such an antenna before I'd pay $1,200 for an antenna rotor.


----------



## DougRuss




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you are combining a vhf and a uhf the standard popular tv rotor, the cm 9521A is not enough rotor
> 
> 
> call norm's rotor service for the better choice for your system.
> 
> http://www.rotorservice.com



It should be enough to handle it!


It's not like he's going to be swinging the antenna around every hour or so.( your not are you ?







)


I had a Large Combo on mine for several years,before a large tree branch took out the antenna, never had a problem. Even with the Brutal Midwest Winters.


----------



## geogecko

dabl.


(I'll disclaim this, since I do not claim to be an expert.)


If you are living at a max distance of only 4 miles, I'm thinking a pre-amp isn't going to do you much good, as your signal strength should be pretty much maxed out. (What do you see as signal strengths?)


The way most pre-amplifiers work, is that they have two pieces. The first piece, the amplifier, goes as close to the antenna as possible. The second piece, is sometimes referred to as a power injector, and consists of a DC block on one side (the side you connect to your TV or capture card), and then an A/C adapter power brick, or input for power, which it then sends out on the other side of the coax, towards the antenna. (In other words, it's sending the DC power for the amplifier over the coax.) Then, the amplifier receives the DC power, and also has another DC block on the other side of the amplifier, to prevent DC from going to the antenna.


So, long story short, you don't need an outlet close to the pre-amp, in most cases.


My initial guess, is that a distribution amplifier would be what you are after. I'd just go with a single in, single out, amplifier, and then use passive splitters after the amp.


----------



## dabl




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geogecko* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> dabl.
> 
> 
> (I'll disclaim this, since I do not claim to be an expert.)
> 
> 
> If you are living at a max distance of only 4 miles, I'm thinking a pre-amp isn't going to do you much good, as your signal strength should be pretty much maxed out. (What do you see as signal strengths?).



I see, interesting. I'm not at home to check. I also wrote them down. The signal strength display on the Samsung is a simple incremental segmented bar type graph without any numerics, but in general the number of lit up segments averaged 8 out of 10 so perhaps I'm doing ok there.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geogecko* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The way most pre-amplifiers work, is that they have two pieces. The first piece, the amplifier, goes as close to the antenna as possible. The second piece, is sometimes referred to as a power injector, and consists of a DC block on one side (the side you connect to your TV or capture card), and then an A/C adapter power brick, or input for power, which it then sends out on the other side of the coax, towards the antenna. (In other words, it's sending the DC power for the amplifier over the coax.) Then, the amplifier receives the DC power, and also has another DC block on the other side of the amplifier, to prevent DC from going to the antenna.
> 
> 
> So, long story short, you don't need an outlet close to the pre-amp, in most cases.?).



extremely helpful and makes perfect sense thanks!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geogecko* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My initial guess, is that a distribution amplifier would be what you are after. I'd just go with a single in, single out, amplifier, and then use passive splitters after the amp.



Ok, but is there some reason I shouldn't simply get a 1 in four out distribution amplifier for each source (antenna, cable) given the number of display devices I want to feed? Is there some disadvantage of using one of those over passive splitters? To me pasive splitters seem like a really lame way of doing things. I can't stand the idea of reducing a signal level that already seems anemic. I know that the first 'high quality 2 Ghz splitter' I bought was completely useless because the cable modem wouldn't function with it. I know the cable modem can only withstand something like a 3db loss in signal and uses a 'special' leg of my 3 way splitter that only presents such a small loss versus something like 7db on the other legs etc. The whole passive splitter thing seems to me to be a very feeble solution and a powered multitap distribution box sounds (with presumeably no or much less loss on each leg sounds MUCH more appealing. But that's why I'm asking, perhaps there's something I'm missing......


----------



## geogecko

If all of your components are located in one place, then a distribution amplifier with multiple output ports would work well. The problem you get into, is that if you need to amplify the signal, it is better to have all the legs coming off the amplifier to be the same length, so that the signals relative to each other, are the same. If you have 3 sources in one place, and the other one 100 or more feet away, then the one furthest away will have a weaker signal.


Usually, the best way to run signals through a house, is to locate the incoming coax signal, near the center of all connection points. Then, if amplification is needed, make sure it is done at this point. From that point, split the signal off to go to different locations in the house, trying to keep a single coax going to more than one location, then splitting it at the last possible place, of course, keeping the two legs of the split, the same length.


It's not always easy to do this, especially in a house already built.


You would probably be okay running a multiple port distribution amplifier, since it sounds like most of your stuff will be in one place. What would be nice, is a distribution amp that had individual attenuators (or gain adjustments) built-in to each outgoing port, so that it wouldn't matter how long the legs are, relative to each other. You could tune each leg to have the same signal strength.


This guide as a lot of useful information in it.

http://www.channelmaster.com/pdf/Ant...ation%20pdf%22


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SCriss* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Perhaps this is a dumb question. Here's my situation.
> 
> 
> I am 6.8 miles from one tower that carries two channels I want, one uhf, the other Ch. 13 vhf. I am 4.8 miles from another tower that has two uhf channels I want. They are at 148 and 153 degrees, so in the scheme of the universe, practically right next to each other. I have several 30'+ trees in my yard between me and the towers, no other obstructions. If anything, the ground I am on is at a higher elevation than ground on which the towers sit.
> 
> 
> I have an amplified indoor rabbit ear/ring uhf/vhf antenna that will pull any one of the stations in at 90 "signal strength". The prolem is that I cannot tune them all in at the same time, and a windy day forces me to SD cable reception. So I'd like to get a small outdoor antenna that will be more reliable in crappy weather.
> 
> 
> Dumb question: Will a small UHF antenna, like the small Winegard 4400 or the larger 8800 pull in the VHF ch. 13?
> 
> 
> I don't want a huge yagi style uhf/vhf antenna, so if I am stuck with a dual antenna, I'll probably go with the Winegard/Terk Squareshooter.
> 
> 
> But if I can get away with it, I'd like to just get a cheaper, low profile UHF. So is it possible to get ch. 13 with a UHF?



You can get the Terk SS-1000 at Best Buy, and if it works well for you, you can return it and get it for a bit over half the price online. It should normally pick up channel 13 decently at that short of a distance.


Those trees may or may not be a problem. All you can do is try.


----------



## goldrich

dabl,


We're not too far apart, as I live just south of Carmel. Also, I'm 3 miles from the WTHR tower and around 5 miles from most of the other towers. My past tests with distribution amps has been disastrous. WAY TOO MUCH overload from the nearby locals. I'm testing a unit now (at work now, and I don't remember brand/model info) which even allows for manual adjustments, and even with the gain turned down all the way there is still too much signal overload.


The only thing similar to a distribution amp that I've had success with is the Motorola Signal Booster which you can see at the CC website.


Send me a private message sometime if you'd care to chat more. Thanks.


Steve


----------



## dabl

Geogecko and Steve, thanks mucho for the info, greatly appreciated.


Steve, you'll no doubt see my cross post in the local Indy HDTV AVS forum (won't make a habit of that) and I sent you a PM.


--Don


----------



## st8kout

FOLLOW UP:


After berating Solid Signal for sending me an open box preamp instead of a new one, I feel it's only right for me to post their apologetic email I received after they read my Bizrate comments about them.


=========================================

"We truly apologize for your mishap. Sometimes our products come tested from the manufacturer and we, like you, expect them to be new and unblemished.


We care about our customers and we value our customer service reputation. May we send you a new replacement item with a prepaid freight label? All you would have to do is send back the item you currently have with the prepaid label we send you. Alternatively, if your item is already in use, and, since you feel you received an "Open Box Item, we can change the charge amount to our true open box price of $42.99.


Please advise me on your decision

Again, we apologize and hope you are willing to test Solid Signal's desire to be your online source for consumer electronics."


============================================


Since mine "is already in use" I'll opt for the reduced price (although I still prefer to buy most everything new).


I have to give them props for trying to make good


----------



## geogecko

Well, if this doesn't do it, I give up. Here's a preview review of the Lacrosse Amplified antenna.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post8338974


----------



## SCriss




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You can get the Terk SS-1000 at Best Buy, and if it works well for you, you can return it and get it for a bit over half the price online. It should normally pick up channel 13 decently at that short of a distance.
> 
> 
> Those trees may or may not be a problem. All you can do is try.



That's actually a great idea. I'm going to check it out this weekend.


----------



## geogecko

What's the deal with these anchor bolts that the J-Mount came with? How do you install these? Drill a hole the same size as the hole in the J-Mount foot, and then jam them in and tighten them down?


I've never seen anything like them. I was expecting lag screws...


Is this suitable for roof mounting? I would guess I'd want to be careful to *not* hit any rafters in this case...


----------



## DougRuss

Think those anchor bolts are for if you have to mount in Brick or Concrete?

Take a pic to show us.


----------



## geogecko




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DougRuss* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Think those anchor bolts are for if you have to mount in Brick or Concrete?
> 
> Take a pic to show us.



I hope not. Seems a little strange they would provide that, versus something to mount it in wood...


----------



## hdtvluvr

I believe those are called tapcons. They are designed for concrete/brick only. With the force they can exert, I would not use them on brick personally.


----------



## DougRuss

No...those are Sleeve Anchors. Used for Concrete or Brick.

Sleeve Anchor 


You'll have to buy some "Lag Screws" if they didn't come with it,if your mounting into Wood !




BTW:


These are Tapcons


----------



## geogecko

Hmm...guess I'll be making a trip to Lowe's then.


Seems a bit odd that they would give you mason attachement hardware, with an HD antenna J-Mount, does it not? I mean, I'd figure most people would be mounting into wood...


So, anyone know what size lag screws I should get? These sleeve anchors are 1/4", so I assume I should get 1/4" lag screws, about 2 inches long.


Thanks for the assistance.


----------



## DougRuss

If the Hole Diameters on the Mounting Foot is only 1/4" then go for that, but a 3/8" would probably be better( you would have to drill them out some)?


----------



## geogecko




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DougRuss* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If the Hole Diameters on the Mounting Foot is only 1/4" then go for that, but a 3/8" would probably be better( you would have to drill them out some)?



Will do. I'll just take the mounting foot with me, and see what fits. I might consider drilling them out, but I assume the mounting foot and mast are made of steel, so if I do drill it out, it could expose the metal, and allow it to rust if it wasn't sealed. I bought some roofing sealant, so I plan on gooping the screws, and probably also around the mounting foot.


I found these nice little mounting plates that you can use to mount your mounting foot too (hmm...a mounting foot for a mounting foot), but it is a plate, that has two other plates that slide under two different shingles, where you screw them down, then flip the shingle back over it. Then it has a plate that you mount the mounting foot to.


Ah, found the link. It's near the bottom.
http://www.hometech.com/video/satmount.html 


Too late for my today installation, as long as it doesn't start raining...


----------



## texasbrit

Goldrich - you obviously don't need a distribution amp. your signal is already strong enough. You just need to use a splitter...


----------



## DougRuss

I just seen that Type of Mounting Plate at my Local Menards,,,On Sale too !!









Menards 


But they don't have in Texas










Good Luck and let us know how it goes !!


----------



## geogecko

Figures.


Well, I'm going to check the local Home Depot and Lowe's to see if they have one of these, otherwise, I may just wait and order one. I think mounting one of the mounting plates would make it easier to install.


----------



## DougRuss




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geogecko* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Figures.
> 
> 
> Well, I'm going to check the local Home Depot and Lowe's to see if they have one of these, otherwise, I may just wait and order one. I think mounting one of the mounting plates would make it easier to install.


 http://www.rstcenterprises.com/find_...phtml?state=TX 


http://www.rstcenterprises.com/insta...training.phtml


----------



## geogecko

Thanks Doug. I came across that as well, but I called a couple of those ABC Supplies, and Bradco's, and they only appear to be open during the week...


Looks like if HD or Lowe's doesn't have them, I'll be waiting until next weekend.


I like the idea of being able to remove the antenna later, if we move, and just leaving the mount there...


----------



## chrisj1

All the Phoenix channels are on one mountain and live about 895 feet above sea level. I think I can receive these channels with no problem with either a Zenith ZHDTV1 HDTV-UHF Digital Indoor Antenna (Silver and Black) or a Terk Technology HDTVi VHF/UHF HDTV Indoor Antenna. Is there a advantage of one over the other or is there a better one out there in that price range. It must be indoors. No trees or high buildings just desert. Is there any advantage getting one of them amplified or not.



* yellow - uhf KDTP-DT 39 DAY PHOENIX AZ TBD 91° 28.3 39

* yellow - uhf KPPX-DT 51.1 i TOLLESON AZ 91° 28.4 52

* yellow - uhf KTVW-DT 33.1 UNI PHOENIX AZ 92° 28.3 34

* yellow - uhf KTVK-DT 3.1 IND PHOENIX AZ 91° 28.3 24

* yellow - uhf KPHO-DT 5.1 CBS PHOENIX AZ 91° 28.4 17

* yellow - uhf KPNX-DT 12.1 NBC MESA AZ 92° 28.3 36

* yellow - uhf KAET-DT 8.1 PBS PHOENIX AZ 92° 28.3 29

* yellow - uhf KNXV-DT 15.1 ABC PHOENIX AZ 92° 28.3 56

* green - uhf KASW-DT 61.1 WB PHOENIX AZ 91° 28.3 49

* green - uhf KSAZ-DT 10.1 FOX PHOENIX AZ 91° 28.3 31

* green - uhf KUTP-DT 45.1 UPN PHOENIX AZ 91° 28.5 26

* red - uhf KPAZ-DT 21.1 TBN PHOENIX AZ 91° 28.3 20


----------



## starreem

I mounted a Channel master 9512A on top of a 5 foot mast, that is attached by means of two-8" stand-offs, to the eave of my house. The two stand-off brackets are approx 18" apart, and into solid wood with 1-1/2 #10 lag bolts. It ends up about three feet above my roof line. I then mounted a RadioShack UHF Yagi (a tad shorter than the CM3222) about 8" from the top of another 5 foot mast. See the attached jpeg


Only afterwards did I notice one of my install guides suggests only using a 3 foot mast above the rotor. All the illustrations in the guide show big vhf/uhf antennas.


Would it be best to:

a) cut the mast and mount the antenna lower.

b) lower the antenna on the mast to 3' above the rotor and leave the mast above the antenna.

c) move the lower stand-off to the bottom of the gable vent, lower the rotor's mast approx 2 two feet, leaving the antenna mounted near the top of the 5 foot mast.

d) do nothing, its a small antenna










a and b are possible, c is a little harder since I don't have the ladder I borrowed anymore to get to the gable vent (I get to the roof from a lower part of the roof)


I don't want to put undue strain on rotor or the mounts. Thanks in advance for any advice.


----------



## DougRuss

For that size antenna,there is No problem ,even though it isn't a Winegard







! *( D )*


----------



## starreem

Thanks for the advice, figured it was OK but much better experience here in these forums. I haven't finished the install yet. Still need to get the cables under my house and up into the floor or wall to my TV. Significantly improved reception with this set-up. I was having lots of multipath problems with the Zenith Silver sensor, despite having good signal strength.


----------



## starreem

Do you get any leaks in the roof where the legs attach?


----------



## mtnsean

I currently can pick up all of my local HD broadcasts with a cheapo $7 unamplified rabbit-ears-plus-hoop style antenna plugged into my HDTivo. We have 4 UHF channels and 1 VHF (frequency 10). The problem is that if I orient the antenna to pick up the one VHF channel best, the UHF channels suffer, and vice-versa. The circular "hoop" doesn't turn independently of the "ears" (can't expect much for $7 bucks I guess). So I figure I could upgrade to something a little better and be able to pick up all 5 channels without constantly fussing with the antenna. I tried the Zenith "Silver Sensor", and while that worked superbly for the UHF channels, it couldn't see the VHF one at all (no surprise I guess).


Any recommendations for a decent indoor antenna that can pull in both UHF and VHF? It doesn't have to be the best UHF antenna ever made - just needs to be adequate, and allow me to orient the UHF and VHF independently. That, or any suggestions for combining a decent indoor VHF antenna with the Zenith Silver Sensor (presumably a splitter could do the trick)?


Thanks,

Sean


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mtnsean* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I currently can pick up all of my local HD broadcasts with a cheapo $7 unamplified rabbit-ears-plus-hoop style antenna plugged into my HDTivo. We have 4 UHF channels and 1 VHF (frequency 10). The problem is that if I orient the antenna to pick up the one VHF channel best, the UHF channels suffer, and vice-versa. The circular "hoop" doesn't turn independently of the "ears" (can't expect much for $7 bucks I guess). So I figure I could upgrade to something a little better and be able to pick up all 5 channels without constantly fussing with the antenna. I tried the Zenith "Silver Sensor", and while that worked superbly for the UHF channels, it couldn't see the VHF one at all (no surprise I guess).
> 
> 
> Any recommendations for a decent indoor antenna that can pull in both UHF and VHF? It doesn't have to be the best UHF antenna ever made - just needs to be adequate, and allow me to orient the UHF and VHF independently. That, or any suggestions for combining a decent indoor VHF antenna with the Zenith Silver Sensor (presumably a splitter could do the trick)?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Sean



The Zenith/Philips/Gemini Silver Sensor is UHF only.


The Terk HDTVi and HDTVa (amplified) are very similiar, except they add collapsible rabbit ears for VHF reception:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=br_ss_hs...0&Go.y=0&Go=Go 


=========================================

If you try to combine a VHF antennas (e.g. rabbit ears or folded dipole) with a UHF antenna using a typical RF Splitter/Combiner, you will have 4 dB of insertion loss for each antenna.


What you should use is a VHF/UHF Combiner that has very low loss (typically 0.5 dB) for each antenna, such as the fol:
http://www.pacificcable.com/Picture_...taName=201-604


----------



## dabl




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasbrit* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Goldrich - you obviously don't need a distribution amp. your signal is already strong enough. You just need to use a splitter...



I think you're intending to reply to my original query, Goldrich doesn't need any help with this. Thanks though!


Actually what would be really helpful is a pointer to some kind of basic faq/doc on when/how to use preamps and splitters such as was summarized in geogecko's reply.


--Don


----------



## geogecko

Yes, but a more authoritative person would be better quoted in an official FAQ like that. I'm no expert.


----------



## bobchase

Quote:

Originally Posted by *texasbrit*
Bob - I'm a bit confused here. One of my friends says there are three other stations in Longview/Tyler, all with digital transmissions - KFXK, KYTX and KETX. They don't show up on your report (or in antennaweb). Maybe this is because both programs use the same database and these stations are missing???
Tex,


The guy that runs 2150.com actually uses the FCC public database (that others told you to go look at) to derive his webpage. It's just that I don't usually check-mark the 'expired records' when I am doing a station search for someone. Unfortunately, the FCC is in the middle of going through the renewal process for all the TV stations in Texas. That causes some licences, STA's (Special Temporary Authority, and CP's (Construction Permits) appear to be expired, when actually they are not, they are just waiting in line at the FCC for renewal. Once it is done, the new licenses will expire in August of 2014.


Bob

 

Broadcast Television Station Search.pdf 348.7353515625k . file


----------



## Davinleeds




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dabl* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Actually what would be really helpful is a pointer to some kind of basic faq/doc on when/how to use preamps and splitters
> 
> 
> --Don



HDTV PRIMER.com go to antennas, informational.


----------



## AntAltMike

_"Someone should like take a piece of paper with all the days of the week written on it and put numbers under them, like, you know, 'one' 'two' 'three', so anytime someone wants to know what day something is going to be on, they can just look at it and see."_


- Kelly Bundy


_Pumpkin, do you know what today is?_


- Al Bundy

_"Of course I do. Its the bright part that comes before 'tonight'."_


- Kelly


----------



## geogecko




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Davinleeds* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> HDTV PRIMER.com go to antennas, informational.


 http://www.hdtvprimer.com/


----------



## holl_ands

Although it doesn't have all of the fancy bells and whistles of www.2150.com/broadcast ,

I've found that the fol website usually finds most of the nearby stations:
http://www.fccinfo.com/cmdpro.php?sz=L&wd=1280


----------



## Davinleeds




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geogecko* /forum/post/0
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/



Thanks


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Although it doesn't have all of the fancy bells and whistles of www.2150.com/broadcast ,
> 
> I've found that the fol website usually finds most of the nearby stations:
> http://www.fccinfo.com/cmdpro.php?sz=L&wd=1280



Holl_ands,


I've worked with those guys before but I didn't know they had a website like that fixed up. I will definitely bookmark it.


Thanks,


Bob


----------



## SCriss




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You can get the Terk SS-1000 at Best Buy, and if it works well for you, you can return it and get it for a bit over half the price online. It should normally pick up channel 13 decently at that short of a distance.
> 
> 
> Those trees may or may not be a problem. All you can do is try.




As a follow up, I did get the Terk HDTVS (the SS-1000). It pulls in the UHF stations I am trying to get at about 98 on the signal strength and a consistent 92-95 on the VHF (13) channel that I want. Each station is practically "locked" on the signal - the meter almost never varies. If it does, the UHF stations never drop below 95, the VHF actually increases to 95, never dropping below 92.


For what it's worth, a Sony tech that came out to replace a bad ATSC tuner told me that the number that matters is the SNR(dB) number, and each station comes in at 28-30, which is higher all around than it ever was before.


So add me to the list of people who endorse the HDTVS (Square shooter).


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SCriss* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As a follow up, I did get the Terk HDTVS (the SS-1000). It pulls in the UHF stations I am trying to get at about 98 on the signal strength and a consistent 92-95 on the VHF (13) channel that I want. Each station is practically "locked" on the signal - the meter almost never varies. If it does, the UHF stations never drop below 95, the VHF actually increases to 95, never dropping below 92.
> 
> 
> For what it's worth, a Sony tech that came out to replace a bad ATSC tuner told me that the number that matters is the SNR(dB) number, and each station comes in at 28-30, which is higher all around than it ever was before.
> 
> 
> So add me to the list of people who endorse the HDTVS (Square shooter).



That's great. I'm glad it worked out for you. I had a feeling it might.


----------



## starreem

Great resource at www.hdtvprimer.com I had cobbled most of the information from other various sources, nice to find it all in one place. ---


I don't consider myself in a high probability lightning strike area, a large canopy of taller trees than my antenna. That said...


I mounted my antenna on the side of my house, opposite from the power entrance. The antenna coax comes down near to the phone co wire, and enters the house in the same penetration of the phone co wiring . I noticed the ground wire of the phone NID going under my house, tacked to the floor joists, and heading towards the other side of the house. I didn't follow it all the way to the other side. I used a split bolt to connect the ground wire of the phone co to the ground wire of my antenna coax going into the ground rod I pounded in.


After I connected it all together, I used a continuity meter to determine the house ground and the antenna coax ground are not connected. I assume the phone co ground was cut/removed in some plumbing or other renovation under my house. I'm thinking it would be best to cut the phone co ground and attact it directly to the ground rod for the antenna, rather than having this flaming wire going nowhere under my house if I had a close lightning strike. I don't relish the thought of running a ground wire all the way to the other side of the house. Is this a totally bad idea?


----------



## geogecko

Code says that two ground rods should be joined together by 6 AWG wire. Having two different earth grounds can cause problems with your receiver, due to a possible differential in ground voltage. But you may not see any problem...


Seems a bit odd that the telephone service would come in on the other side of the house, but I don't know all that much about construction practices.


Lightning does not always favor the tallest structure. Lightning is attracted to static electricity. Your antenna (mast) if not properly grounded, can have static electricity build up, due to wind moving the antenna back and forth. Your antenna mast *and* coax should both be grounded.


I'm no expert, but grounding both of those, using a second ground rod in leu of no ground, is probably better than not grounding at all.


However, with a pier and beam house, wouldn't it be fairly easy to run a wire from one ground to the other?


----------



## starreem




> Quote:
> wouldn't it be fairly easy to run a wire from one ground to the other?



Easy is a realtive term-the crawl space under my house is very limited in certain areas. I haven't grounded the mast yet. I need to grind off some of the painted surfaces of the mast, so it's all grounded.


My original question-should I cut that phone co ground wire that goes somewhere/nowhere under my house? I do have it grounded to the coax ground rod.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *starreem* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Easy is a realtive term-the crawl space under my house is very limited in certain areas. I haven't grounded the mast yet. I need to grind off some of the painted surfaces of the mast, so it's all grounded.



If you can borrow a set of "push rods" from someone, you won't need to crawl under the house. Or you can pay a little kid five or ten bucks to do the crawl for you.


----------



## silbeR32

Hello all -


The past couple of days I've been reading through many of the posts in this thread, looking for an antenna. Previously I was maybe 10 miles from the towers for the Boston area (02474), and used a Radioshack indoor UHF/VHF antenna to recieve all of the local HD channels. We've now moved to 01606, and not surprisingly the indoor doesn't work since the towers are now ~30miles distant. 4.1 would occasionally come in, but ~60% signal strength resulted in frequent "pixelation."


Below is the antennaweb data for my address. I'm only interested in receiving the signals at bearings 105° and 106°. We've got an unfinished walk up attic (cape style house, only single floor is finished) so I could put something up there, or even in the garage rafters, but I'm not opposed to putting something outside on the chimney.


It looks like the CM4228 is a popular choice here, but I'm concerned about wind loading due to its size/shape.


Thanks


yellow - uhf WUNI-DT 27.1 UNI WORCESTER MA 91° 5.3 29

red - uhf WGBH-DT 2.1 PBS BOSTON MA 106° 29.6 19

blue - uhf WGBX-DT 44.1 PBS BOSTON MA 106° 29.6 43

blue - uhf WUTF-DT 66.1 TFA MARLBOROUGH MA 89° 17.1 23

blue - vhf WPRI-DT 12.1 CBS PROVIDENCE RI 153° 40.9 13

blue - uhf WJAR-DT 10.1 NBC PROVIDENCE RI 154° 41.4 51

blue - uhf WCVB-DT 5.1 ABC BOSTON MA 106° 29.6 20

blue - uhf WBZ-DT 4.1 CBS BOSTON MA 106° 29.6 30

blue - uhf WHDH-DT 7.1 NBC BOSTON MA 105° 30.7 42

violet - uhf WLVI-DT 56.1 WB CAMBRIDGE MA 106° 30.6 41

violet - uhf WBPX-DT 68.1 i BOSTON MA 106° 30.3 32

violet - uhf WNAC-DT 64.1 FOX PROVIDENCE RI 154° 40.8 54

violet - uhf WLNE-DT 6.1 ABC NEW BEDFORD MA 154° 41.4 49

violet - uhf WFXT-DT 25.1 FOX BOSTON MA 106° 30.6 31

violet - uhf WMFP-DT 18.1 SAH LAWRENCE MA TBD 106° 30.3 18

violet - uhf WWDP-DT 52.1 SAH NORWELL MA 134° 42.6 52

violet - uhf WSBK-DT 38.1 UPN BOSTON MA 106° 29.6 39

violet - uhf WYDN-DT 47 DAY WORCESTER MA TBD 106° 30.3 47


----------



## Dan Kolton

Perhaps this has been answered before, but I'd like to know, if my LG3410a measures signal quality, what can I use instead to measure signal strength? This might be useful in locating and orienting my antenna.


----------



## KnordRW

I'm at my wit's end here. I've been looking thru all of the forums, and all of the messages, and the more I research the less I seem to know.


I live relatively close to all of the towers for the channels I want to get. I have a Philips inside antenna hooked up to my HR10-250, and I can get all but one channel with decent signal strength pretty much no matter where in the house I put it. Obviously some spots are better than others, but you get the idea. The problem is the one I can't get. No matter where I put the antenna, I can't get a strong enough signal to lock on at all. In fact, the only way to get any hint of any signal at all on this channel is to hang the antenna out the upstairs west side window, and even then it peaks for a few seconds and then goes away. I've tried an amplifier, I've moved the thing all over the house, nothing. I'm just about ready to pull my hair out. If anyone can suggest a solution, please help.


The antennaweb info for my address is:


yellow - uhf WTVH-DT 47.1 CBS SYRACUSE NY 165° 2.2 47

yellow - uhf WSTM-DT 3.1 NBC SYRACUSE NY 164° 2.2 54

yellow - uhf WNYS-DT 44.1 MNT SYRACUSE NY 218° 7.1 44

yellow - uhf WCNY-DT 24.1 PBS SYRACUSE NY 163° 2.2 25

yellow - uhf WSYT-DT 19.1 FOX SYRACUSE NY 218° 7.1 19

red - uhf WSYR-DT 9.1 ABC SYRACUSE NY 121° 6.2 17


The channel I can't get at all is WSYR- the ABC channel. The others I can get with little to no problem. About the only obstacles in my area is the neighbor's tree which is in the vague direction of the towers and a little higher than the house (1.5 story house).


I'm a total newb at this, and the idea of putting up an outdoor antenna scares the crap out of me because I am afraid I am not going to ground it properly or somehow screw it up and blow up my TV or other equipment. I'd also hate to have to go thru all the work of putting this antenna up and find out that either I could have gotten the channel in some manner with an indoor antenna, or that nothing I do can get the channel at my house - that last one would really piss me off.


I've read pretty much everything suggested here and I'm no closer to a solution. In fact, my head is about ready to explode from the overload of information.


----------



## sea157




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you can borrow a set of "push rods" from someone, you won't need to crawl under the house. Or you can pay a little kid five or ten bucks to do the crawl for you.



If you can see under the house from one side to the other a bow and arrow works great for this sort of thing.


Tie a stout string to the arrow and shoot it through, then tie the string to the wire and just pull it through.


----------



## Kolchak

KnordRW,

Due to your close proximity to the towers, the Silver Sensor may be your best bet as recommended by holl_ands and sregener. Buying locally will enable easy return. I am unable to recollect the name of a poster who mentioned a rotatable indoor antenna at Radio Shack. It came with a small remote that turned the antenna to previously entered coordinates when a channel was entered.

silbeR32

While attic installs cause more attenuation, reflections, etc., you may be in luck doing this as your stations are at the same bearing and only at 30 miles. Many have had success with the 4 bay CM4221. If your cable run is long, you may need a 10dB preamp. Its bigger brother, the 4228, is no slouch either if the extra weight or width is not a problem. I'm not a big fan of chimney mounts, but a small light weight yagi should not cause any problems under wind load.


----------



## DougRuss

Or tie a String on a dogs Collar and call him from the other side !


----------



## starreem

Thanks for all the suggestions-even the less than practical ones.







I am doomed to crawl through there, I want to get it tacked up to the floor joists. This ones too important to leave laying on the ground, just to get snagged/disconnected on aonther trip under the house.


----------



## geogecko




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *starreem* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the suggestions-even the less than practical ones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am doomed to crawl through there, I want to get it tacked up to the floor joists. This ones too important to leave laying on the ground, just to get snagged/disconnected on aonther trip under the house.



Actually, I've leave it as loose as possible. Typically, you want the ground wire to have as few bends in it as possible, so the lightning has an easy time going down the wire...


----------



## n8wci

Can anyone suggest a good coaxial grounding block(sheilded?) for an outside instalation of rg6 coax. also a block for running 2 identical uhf's together.

Thanks,


Steve


----------



## DM2006RI

hi guys,

I purchased a CM 4228 and a 7777 preamp to go along with it. It works great for all my Providence stations with no break up, but some of the Boston channels (about 50-60 miles out from me) do break up at times -- esp. during the day time.


If I added an amp, could that possibly help? (the signal is only being split at the end of the line, but doesn't seem to make any difference if it is or not in terms of getting those channels in -- I've run the wire straight through, passing the splitter, but the same break up occur at the same general time of day on the stations further out). I do not have any obstuctions.


If so which CM amp should I get?


----------



## ctdish

Sounds like an amplifier is not the solution, you need a better signal comming from the the antenna. What town do you live in? If the antenna is not outside, getting it out helps. A rotator would allow you to point the antenna at the weak stations better which would help.

Also some of the Boston channels have stations from Hartford on the same channel and you could be getting interference especially in Northwestern RI.

John


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DM2006RI* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> hi guys,
> 
> I purchased a CM 4228 and a 7777 preamp to go along with it. It works great for all my Providence stations with no break up, but some of the Boston channels (about 50-60 miles out from me) do break up at times -- esp. during the day time.



If you are located over 50 miles from the Boston TV towers the curvature of the earth is beginning to block the signal. For example, WBZ-DT 30 transmits from an antenna @ approximately 1280 ft. (HAAT) which theoretically means the line of sight signal would travel approximately 50 miles before hitting the ground. Beyond this distance the signal strength is affected by many propagation factors like weather conditions, tropospheric conditions, etc. Sunlight has a negative impact on the signal so reception will usually improve, at least somewhat, after sunset and during the nighttime hours.


I'm not saying you will not be able to receive these stations from Boston at over 50 miles, but it will certainly be more of a challenge. Not always, but usually the higher you can get your antenna the better you'll do as you try to climb above the ground clutter which will help your antenna's "line of sight" to the TV tower.


I have a DTV station @ 60 miles. Sometimes I can get and sometimes I can't. The signal strength varies a lot.


Steve


----------



## DM2006RI




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *goldrich* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you are located over 50 miles from the Boston TV towers the curvature of the earth is beginning to block the signal. For example, WBZ-DT 30 transmits from an antenna @ approximately 1280 ft. (HAAT) which theoretically means the line of sight signal would travel approximately 50 miles before hitting the ground. Beyond this distance the signal strength is affected by many propagation factors like weather conditions, tropospheric conditions, etc. Sunlight has a negative impact on the signal so reception will usually improve, at least somewhat, after sunset and during the nighttime hours.
> 
> 
> I'm not saying you will not be able to receive these stations from Boston at over 50 miles, but it will certainly be more of a challenge. Not always, but usually the higher you can get your antenna the better you'll do as you try to climb above the ground clutter which will help your antenna's "line of sight" to the TV tower.
> 
> 
> I have a DTV station @ 60 miles. Sometimes I can get and sometimes I can't. The signal strength varies a lot.
> 
> 
> Steve



Thanks Steve. For whatever reason Channels 2, 4 and 5 from Boston reach me at any time of the day -- very little break up on them, and Channel 2's signal is unbelievably strong. Other Boston channels tend to come and go depending on the weather as you say and time of day (38, 56, 44, etc.). Must have something to do with where I am and the signal of those particular stations.


As I'm on the water and have gone through numerous antennas over the years with a rotor (weather can be nasty and very windy in the winter time), we opted not to go that route again. We mounted the 4228 on the roof (on the side of the chimney mount to be precise) so it's anchored on all 4 sides strong and ought to be stable from any wind direction.


Where we have it pointed, I'm getting no problem with any of the Providence HD stations in any weather (with good readings) and can pick up those 3 Boston channels just fine. The downside is I can't move it, but I'd rather get what I know I can from the angle it's at, then have to worry about climbing up there in the middle of winter once a storm knocks it off-course or blows it off completely (which happened with our old Radio Shack antenna a few years ago).


I was just trying to figure out if there's anything else I can do in-house to maybe get those stations, but it's not a big deal if I can't (if that makes any sense) since I'm set with the Providence OTA HD locals.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Kolchak* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> KnordRW,
> 
> Due to your close proximity to the towers, the Silver Sensor may be your best bet as recommended by holl_ands and sregener. Buying locally will enable easy return. I am unable to recollect the name of a poster who mentioned a rotatable indoor antenna at Radio Shack. It came with a small remote that turned the antenna to previously entered coordinates when a channel was entered.
> 
> silbeR32
> 
> While attic installs cause more attenuation, reflections, etc., you may be in luck doing this as your stations are at the same bearing and only at 30 miles. Many have had success with the 4 bay CM4221. If your cable run is long, you may need a 10dB preamp. Its bigger brother, the 4228, is no slouch either if the extra weight or width is not a problem. I'm not a big fan of chimney mounts, but a small light weight yagi should not cause any problems under wind load.



That Radio Shack remote-controlled model is the 15-1892, price: $49.95.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KnordRW* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm at my wit's end here. I've been looking thru all of the forums, and all of the messages, and the more I research the less I seem to know.
> 
> 
> I live relatively close to all of the towers for the channels I want to get. I have a Philips inside antenna hooked up to my HR10-250, and I can get all but one channel with decent signal strength pretty much no matter where in the house I put it. Obviously some spots are better than others, but you get the idea. The problem is the one I can't get. No matter where I put the antenna, I can't get a strong enough signal to lock on at all. In fact, the only way to get any hint of any signal at all on this channel is to hang the antenna out the upstairs west side window, and even then it peaks for a few seconds and then goes away. I've tried an amplifier, I've moved the thing all over the house, nothing. I'm just about ready to pull my hair out. If anyone can suggest a solution, please help.
> 
> 
> The antennaweb info for my address is:
> 
> 
> yellow - uhf WTVH-DT 47.1 CBS SYRACUSE NY 165° 2.2 47
> 
> yellow - uhf WSTM-DT 3.1 NBC SYRACUSE NY 164° 2.2 54
> 
> yellow - uhf WNYS-DT 44.1 MNT SYRACUSE NY 218° 7.1 44
> 
> yellow - uhf WCNY-DT 24.1 PBS SYRACUSE NY 163° 2.2 25
> 
> yellow - uhf WSYT-DT 19.1 FOX SYRACUSE NY 218° 7.1 19
> 
> red - uhf WSYR-DT 9.1 ABC SYRACUSE NY 121° 6.2 17
> 
> 
> The channel I can't get at all is WSYR- the ABC channel. The others I can get with little to no problem. About the only obstacles in my area is the neighbor's tree which is in the vague direction of the towers and a little higher than the house (1.5 story house).
> 
> 
> I'm a total newb at this, and the idea of putting up an outdoor antenna scares the crap out of me because I am afraid I am not going to ground it properly or somehow screw it up and blow up my TV or other equipment. I'd also hate to have to go thru all the work of putting this antenna up and find out that either I could have gotten the channel in some manner with an indoor antenna, or that nothing I do can get the channel at my house - that last one would really piss me off.
> 
> 
> I've read pretty much everything suggested here and I'm no closer to a solution. In fact, my head is about ready to explode from the overload of information.



The hill just East of you is blocking the signal from CH9.1

If I move the location just a few blocks West, antennaweb.org shows it as being "yellow".


In order to obtain the maximum sensitivity for that channel, I would first recommend inserting a variable RF attenuator (R-S 15-678) on the antenna input of your HDTV (try from MIN to about 12 o-clock):
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 

A small attenuation in the strong signals from the nearby transmitters will yield a 3-fold reduction in intermod products levels, e.g. a 10 dB attenuator on the input level will yield a 30 dB reduction in intermod products. The goal is to reduce the intermod signal levels (3:1 reduction) below the level of the desired signal (1:1 reduction).


Secondly, if the attenuator doesn't work, you should consider an outdoor antenna, such as the CM4221....unfortunately you'll have to play around with the direction, trying to maximize CH9.1 without unduly affecting the other channels.


Q: What kind of Philips antenna are you using??? If it is amplified, it's overloaded....


----------



## Kolchak

Rammitinski,

Thank you for the model number. Should it have the same capabilities the 15-1880 had, it would be a welcome benefit for those with opposing towers unable to perform outdoor installs. If memory serves, the 1880 could acquire digital stations 43 miles distant with low 90's signal strength at awkward angles to the towers.


----------



## jritze

I work at a retail store and we well some tv's. We have arround 50+ . We get our cable via sattelite broadcast from the home store so we don't have the option of what is viewed. But we would like to ad an antenna to view local news or football games on the sales floor or just in the break room.


But putting an antenna outside is not an option because there is NO drilling holes in the roof. The roff is held up with all steel so when we put an antenna up there, or a small one anywhere, we got nothing.


Are there any other options?


----------



## hdtvluvr

If it is a flat roof you can use something like this with a small antenna:
http://www.shopjubilee.net/itm00402.htm 


You put cinder blocks in the trays for stability. I've also seen one for angled roofs where it sits on both sides of the peak.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That Radio Shack remote-controlled model is the 15-1892, price: $49.95.



But that model is AMPLIFIED, even at the lowest gain setting, and hence will cause overload problems with KnordRW's stations being so near....


----------



## jritze

Sorry, I should have explained more. No holes include the coaxial cable. So what i meant to say was are there any indoor solutions?


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> But that model is AMPLIFIED, even at the lowest gain setting, and hence will cause overload problems with KnordRW's stations being so near....



Sorry - I didn't realize how close he was. I just now noticed.


I was just adding to what Kolchak said when he mentioned the antenna.


----------



## hdtvluvr

Can you not run the coax through an existing hole - such as where the phone line or current cable is or through a roof vent, etc?


If you have a lot of steel in the building, you probably won't be able to get any OTA signals from an indoor antenna.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DM2006RI* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ..... For whatever reason Channels 2, 4 and 5 from Boston reach me at any time of the day -- very little break up on them, and Channel 2's signal is unbelievably strong. Other Boston channels tend to come and go depending on the weather as you say and time of day (38, 56, 44, etc.). Must have something to do with where I am and the signal of those particular stations.
> 
> .........................



In your comments above, are those analog channels? Here are some good links that help explain the different characteristics of VHF and UHF frequencies. It should make it clearer as to why those low-band VHF channels (2, 4 and 5) from Boston are easier to receive than the higher UHF channels (38, 44 and 56).

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html 
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/G...yA.html#fading 
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/g...yA.html#fringe 


Steve


----------



## 10frog

Thanks for all the posts. There's a lot of good info on this board. I am confused about the UHF only 4228 vs. the combined VHF/UHF 3671. Looking at Channel Master's table, they show the 4228 with a range of 60 miles UHF. They show the 3671 at 60+ miles UHF. Everyone says use UHF only antenna to maximize reception in fringe areas. But 60+ > 60 so what gives?


I have what looks like a 4228 left on the roof by the previous owner. I have hooked it up with the CM 7777 amp with good results. I am in s. mid-TN (37334). Over several days, I was consistently able to lock on 1 Chattanooga station (digital on channel 47, transmitter at 67 miles) and 1 Dalton, GA station (digital on channel 16, transmitter at 64 miles).


In order to pull in Nashville (70-85 miles, ch. 2,4,5) and Chattanooga (~70 miles, ch. 3,9,12) VHF stations, I purchased the 3671. The 4228 picks up the VHF-hi channels okay, but, of course, can't get the VHF-lo channels which are one of my main goals (because of Nashville). The VHF-lo issue may become moot in 2009, depending on what the stations do, but at least I'll have it until then. Of course, I'd also like to be able to pull in any digital I can get.


I have been testing the 3671 attached to my shed along with the 7777 amp. The antenna elevation is probably 15-20 foot lower than the 4228 on the house. The 3671 picks up the VHF channels well, but I've had poor results on UHF. I understand that UHF is more line-of-sight so this might be expected.


I'm wondering how the performance compares between the two. I haven't found channel by channel detailed specs from CM.


The reason I am asking about the 4228, UHF only, performance vs. the 3671, broadband, performance is that it will take some effort to get the 3671 to the roof. The area where I will want to mount it is over the attached garage. The pitch is 45 degrees with the peak at about 27 feet. The side wall is all brick. I have a 40 foot telescoping pole available left by the previous owner. (It's what I've got the 3671 on now, but attached to my detached shed and not fully extended). I am considering whether to attach the telescoping pole to the ground and house or whether just to mount a tripod to the peak. I see pros and cons both ways but would appreciate any insight. I get a little queasy (sp?) thinking about doing installation and maintenance at the edge of the peak.


----------



## goldrich

10frog, see if these previous posts, regarding a similar situation, help explain what you might or might not expect. With the terrain in your area, a high location could be very beneficial while a low or valley spot could be a very difficult location for reception at your distances. My 2 cents. Good luck.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post8377470 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post8385023 


The CM 4228 and 3671 have been tested against some other antennas and are charted here...... http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## ChicagoTC

I figured I'd post my success with an OTA antenna. When D* installed my OTA antenna a few months back they installed a DB2 from antennas direct. While this worked great for most stations it obviously wouldn't pull in low band VHF CBS. After tons of message board reviews I decided to give the Winegard GS-1100 a shot.


Here are my antennaweb stats

yellow - uhf WYCC-DT 20.1 PBS CHICAGO IL 128° 8.6 21

yellow - uhf WSNS-DT 44.1 TEL CHICAGO IL 137° 8.9 45

yellow - uhf WPWR-DT 50.1 MNT GARY IN 137° 8.9 51

yellow - uhf WMAQ-DT 5.1 NBC CHICAGO IL 137° 8.9 29

yellow - uhf WTTW-DT 11.1 PBS CHICAGO IL 137° 8.9 47

yellow - uhf WLS-DT 7.1 ABC CHICAGO IL 137° 8.9 52

yellow - uhf WCIU-DT 26.1 IND CHICAGO IL 137° 8.9 27

yellow - uhf WCPX-DT 38.1 i CHICAGO IL 137° 8.9 43

yellow - uhf WXFT-DT 60.1 TFA AURORA IL 137° 8.9 59

yellow - uhf WFLD-DT 32.1 FOX CHICAGO IL 137° 8.9 31

yellow - uhf WGN-DT 9.1 CW CHICAGO IL 137° 8.9 19

green - uhf WGBO-DT 66.1 UNI JOLIET IL 128° 8.6 53

green - vhf WBBM-DT 2.1 CBS CHICAGO IL 128° 8.6 3

blue - uhf WJYS-DT 36.1 REL HAMMOND IN 137° 8.9 36



For $20 I really didn't care if it worked or not. I didn't order any mounts as I figured I could jury rig a mount. It came with a bracket and two u bolts. I was able to mount it about 20' in the air attached to existing conduit that ran to spot lights. I used a handheld GPS and aimed it the 137* antennaweb said my stations were broadcasting from.


I then ran it into the antenna lead on my eagle aspen 5x8 multiswitch, then diplexed at 3 HDTVs.


Overall I'm VERY pleased, I'm pulling 15 channels at 93% and CBS is coming in at 85%. Granted I'm only 9 miles from the stations, but for $20 I couldn't be happier. So for anyone on the NW side of the city this little $20 antenna works wonders.


I also bought a Squareshooter and while I was able tp pick up the same stations, the signal strength was typicall 10-15pts lower esp on VHF 3.


The fiance is also very happy since we finally get CSI, Without a trace and her other CBS shows in HD!


----------



## KnordRW

Thanks for the suggestion of that attenuator, I will try that next. The Phillips I was using was indeed amplified. After trying the Silver Sensor with no better luck, I took a drive by the WSYR tower in Pompey and saw that Sentinel Heights is indeed in my way. That's when I went out to Radio Shack and got a U-75R and a few lengths of mast pole and got out on the roof to find the best spot for it....unfortunately the only difference that made was it brought the other channels up close to 100% signal from an average of 70% - still nothing solid on Ch 9.1


I'm going to try the attenuator this week, but I'm thinking that I've been spinning my wheels on this whole thing. Stupid hill, stupid tree, stupid low power ch 9!


Guess I'll have to move to get Lost in HD.


----------



## 10frog

Goldrich


Thanks for your response. I guess I'll do my own A-B test of the 3671 and 4228. I may wind up with a stack if there's significant difference. 'Not looking forward to that. I still don't understand what factor would lead CM to advertise the 3671 with better range in UHF if those charts you linked are anything like the real performance.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *10frog* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Goldrich
> 
> 
> Thanks for your response. I guess I'll do my own A-B test of the 3671 and 4228. I may wind up with a stack if there's significant difference. 'Not looking forward to that. I still don't understand what factor would lead CM to advertise the 3671 with better range in UHF if those charts you linked are anything like the real performance.



Unfortunately, the charts in www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html are incomplete, e.g. leaving off the low VHF channels for the CM3671.


If you look at the box at the top of that page, you'll see the fol. link:
http://hometown.aol.com/kq6qv/SIMS/ 

Download and print ant.xls to see the Charts (sheet 2) and Data (sheet 1).


Look for the chart that plots NET GAIN (not RAW) for the CM4228 vs CM3671 as a single curve from CH10 up through UHF channels to see how much better (a simuated) CM4228 performs compared to a (simulated) CM3671.


You can also compare the VHF performance of the CM3671 to the CM4228.

It should come as no surprise that the CM4228 is only a so-so VHF antenna---but is much better than most UHF-only antennas.


Of course, these are all NEC computer simulations, which may differ from actual performance....


================================================

PS: Gain specifications for CM antennas can be found here:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg2.htm 
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg3.htm 
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg4.htm 
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg5.htm


----------



## fedward

I'm in Washington, DC at the top of Columbia Heights (one of the higher points in DC), almost comically close to several transmitters:

Code:


Code:


*   yellow - uhf    WFDC-DT 14.1    TFA ARLINGTON   VA      301°    3.0     15
*   yellow - uhf    WRC-DT  4.1     NBC WASHINGTON  DC      301°    3.0     48
*   yellow - uhf    WDCW-DT 50.1    CW  WASHINGTON  DC      14°     2.5     51
*   yellow - uhf    WETA-DT 26.1    PBS WASHINGTON  DC      257°    6.0     27
*   green - uhf     WPXW-DT 66.1    i   MANASSAS    VA      250°    18.7    43
*   green - uhf     WNVC-DT 57.1    IND FAIRFAX     VA      262°    11.0    57
*   red - uhf       WUSA-DT 9.1     CBS WASHINGTON  DC      313°    3.2     34
*   red - uhf       WJLA-DT 7.1     ABC WASHINGTON  DC      313°    3.2     39
*   blue - uhf      WNUV-DT 54.1    CW  BALTIMORE   MD      46°     34.9    40
*   blue - uhf      WJZ-DT  13.1    CBS BALTIMORE   MD      46°     34.9    38
*   blue - uhf      WHUT-DT 33      PBS WASHINGTON  DC  TBD 313°    3.2     33
*   blue - uhf      WTTG-DT 5.1     FOX WASHINGTON  DC      317°    3.6     36
*   violet - uhf    WNVT-DT 30.1    IND GOLDVEIN    VA      237°    30.1    30
*   violet - uhf    WMAR-DT 2.1     ABC BALTIMORE   MD      46°     34.9    52
*   violet - uhf    WFPT-DT 62.1    PBS FREDERICK   MD      337°    27.7    28
*   violet - uhf    WBAL-DT 11.1    NBC BALTIMORE   MD      46°     34.9    59
*   violet - uhf    WBFF-DT 45.1    FOX BALTIMORE   MD      46°     34.9    46

Eyeballing on Google Earth, I get my antenna position as:

38° 55' 31.15" N, 77° 01' 48.15" W The ground elevation is 185' and the antenna is mounted on a chimney mount about 35 feet above that (above my DirecTV dish). Even on a day of thick haze I can see the WDCW tower from the roof, and the path to the Tenleytown location of several important broadcast towers is largely unobstructed by tall buildings (although it seems WTTG is the exception).


Based on the multiple compass headings and my proximity to most of the stations, I opted for a Winegard MS-1000 (non-amplified). Note also that when I actually ordered the antenna a couple months ago (the actual project to get on the roof and replace cable was delayed), antennaweb.org said that WTTG-DT was yellow for me, not blue.


Saturday I finally got on the roof and installed the antenna. I receive all the yellow stations listed above except WETA-DT, which I couldn't get a lock on with any orientation of the antenna. I don't get any green stations, and I get both red stations perfectly. I can't get a reliable lock on WTTG-DT. I do, however, get a strong lock on WNUV-DT (but none of the other Baltimore stations at the same heading and distance), and I get a strong lock on WMPT-DT out of Annapolis (frequency assignment 42), which doesn't even show up on antennaweb.org for me.


In an attempt to improve reception for WTTG-DT, I picked up an amplifier yesterday and tested it with some screwy results: I still can't pick up WTTG-DT, I get an OK lock on WJZ-DT (out of Baltimore), and I completely lose WMPT if the amp is so much as plugged in, even if it's set to minimum gain.


Since the MS-1000 does seem to be exactly what I need for everything but WTTG-DT and WETA-DT, and the amplifier didn't really seem to help, what's to be done for those two channels? I can:


1. Sigh and conclude I won't receive them. In the case of WETA that's not such a big loss since I do get WMPT, but it'd be nice to have WTTG.


2. Keep the amp and reorient the antenna, which probably isn't going to help either but might be worth the effort the next time I have access to the roof.


3. Replace the antenna with something else entirely.


4. Install a new directional antenna or two solely for those channels (and maybe for the other Baltimore locals), keeping the MS-1000 for my DC locals.


A rotator is out of the question since my upstairs neighbor/landlord is also relying on the same antenna and what worked for me might not work for him at any given time of day.


Any suggestions? If I do add another antenna (or more) how do I combine the signals?


----------



## SteroMAdMAn

OK, before I think myself numb trying to figure stuff out. I will ask 2 questions.


First my info from antennaweb;


yellow - uhf KPXM-DT 41.1 i ST. CLOUD MN 359° 20.6 40

red - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL MN 90° 28.6 50

red - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 90° 28.6 32

red - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 90° 28.6 35

red - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 91° 29.3 21

blue - uhf KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN 90° 28.6 44

blue - uhf KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 91° 29.3 34

blue - uhf KTCI-DT 17.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 91° 29.3 16

blue - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 91° 29.3 26

violet - uhf WUCW-DT 23.1 CW MINNEAPOLIS MN 90° 28.6 22



1st question.


Most of the channels I care about are in the RED other than FOX which is BLUE. What would be the best antenna for my application? I don't have many tree's in the general direction of the stations or buildings/hilss, etc.


2nd question.


I'm guessing without have a HD tuner in my TV a Panny 53x54. I'm most likely going to be SOL. Is there anyway to get the HD signal without a Sattelite/cable STB and having a built in tuner? Is there a box out there(non cable/sat) for just descrambling OTA HD signals for applications like mine?



Trying to stay away from Satellite as Cable is not offered. Save some $$$ for a bit while we get adjusted to the new house and bills


----------



## klipsch

I've recently moved and my distances have gone from 6 miles from the towers to around 15 miles. Consequently, my indoor antenna no longer works. Channels 3, 6 10, and Fox are my only real concerns and they are all UHF.


I live in an area with about 1000 townhouses. Other than the houses, I have some trees, but mostly open clear skies in the 140° direction.


What would be the best antenna for me? I'm thinking I do not need an amplifier. Is this correct?


Would something like the Zenith Gemdtv-1 work well or is there a much better antenna out there?



Antennaweb info


* red - uhf KYW-DT 3.1 CBS PHILADELPHIA PA 141° 14.5 26

* red - uhf WTVE-DT 51.1 IND READING PA 321° 16.8 25

* blue - uhf WYBE-DT 34.1 PBS PHILADELPHIA PA 140° 14.7 34

* blue - uhf WPVI-DT 6.1 ABC PHILADELPHIA PA 141° 14.5 64

* blue - uhf WGTW-DT 27.1 TBN BURLINGTON NJ 140° 14.7 27

* violet - vhf WBPH-DT 59.1 FMN BETHLEHEM PA 13° 27.0 9

* violet - uhf WPPX-DT 61.1 i WILMINGTON DE 140° 14.7 31

* violet - uhf WPHL-DT 17.1 MNT PHILADELPHIA PA 140° 14.7 54

* violet - uhf WTXF-DT 29.1 FOX PHILADELPHIA PA 136° 13.9 42


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *klipsch* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've recently moved and my distances have gone from 6 miles from the towers to around 15 miles. Consequently, my indoor antenna no longer works. Channels 3, 6 10, and Fox are my only real concerns and they are all UHF.
> 
> 
> I live in an area with about 1000 townhouses. Other than the houses, I have some trees, but mostly open clear skies in the 140° direction.
> 
> 
> What would be the best antenna for me? I'm thinking I do not need an amplifier. Is this correct?
> 
> 
> Would something like the Zenith Gemdtv-1 work well or is there a much better antenna out there?
> 
> 
> 
> Antennaweb info
> 
> 
> * red - uhf KYW-DT 3.1 CBS PHILADELPHIA PA 141° 14.5 26
> 
> * red - uhf WTVE-DT 51.1 IND READING PA 321° 16.8 25
> 
> * blue - uhf WYBE-DT 34.1 PBS PHILADELPHIA PA 140° 14.7 34
> 
> * blue - uhf WPVI-DT 6.1 ABC PHILADELPHIA PA 141° 14.5 64
> 
> * blue - uhf WGTW-DT 27.1 TBN BURLINGTON NJ 140° 14.7 27
> 
> * violet - vhf WBPH-DT 59.1 FMN BETHLEHEM PA 13° 27.0 9
> 
> * violet - uhf WPPX-DT 61.1 i WILMINGTON DE 140° 14.7 31
> 
> * violet - uhf WPHL-DT 17.1 MNT PHILADELPHIA PA 140° 14.7 54
> 
> * violet - uhf WTXF-DT 29.1 FOX PHILADELPHIA PA 136° 13.9 42



you forgot 10.1 on the antennaweb







I'll assume it's 140ish though therefore the 3 stations are all the same except fox a few degrees off.But being so close it shouldn't matter.


I'm 40 miles out and have a roof mounted DB8 and even get in 17 and 57 and a bunch of NJ stuff. That DB8 would be overkill for 15 miles out. no amp needed unless you have a long wire run (maybe not even then).I have 125+ feet of RG6 and it's a must for me because of that.


People here swear by the silver sensor for indoor so i'd attempt that one first from someplace that has it locally. I'm not familiar with the antenna you spoke of but you could always get a smaller UHF from radio shack for outdoors. That close you are definitely at an advantage and I it probably wouldn't be difficult to just use what they have in stock and the returnablility is kep there. There is also a DB2 (which is a DB8 shrunk in a copier







) online if you can't get R/S to work


sounds like an EZ install compared to what a lot of us go thru..good luck


----------



## klipsch




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> you forgot 10.1 on the antennaweb
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll assume it's 140ish though therefore the 3 stations are all the same except fox a few degrees off.But being so close it shouldn't matter.
> 
> 
> I'm 40 miles out and have a roof mounted DB8 and even get in 17 and 57 and a bunch of NJ stuff. That DB8 would be overkill for 15 miles out. no amp needed unless you have a long wire run (maybe not even then).I have 125+ feet of RG6 and it's a must for me because of that.
> 
> 
> People here swear by the silver sensor for indoor so i'd attempt that one first from someplace that has it locally. I'm not familiar with the antenna you spoke of but you could always get a smaller UHF from radio shack for outdoors. That close you are definitely at an advantage and I it probably wouldn't be difficult to just use what they have in stock and the returnablility is kep there. There is also a DB2 (which is a DB8 shrunk in a copier
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) online if you can't get R/S to work
> 
> 
> sounds like an EZ install compared to what a lot of us go thru..good luck



For some reason Antennaweb didn't include 10.1 ... I found that odd as well


Sorry, I should have mentioned I used the Silver Sensor with little success. The Silver Sensor worked wonders from 6 miles, but now at 15 miles I'm not getting much of signal past 35-55db. I'll have to try the local stuff from RS and then the DB2 if needed. Thanks for the help


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fedward* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm in Washington, DC at the top of Columbia Heights (one of the higher points in DC), almost comically close to several transmitters:
> 
> ...
> 
> In an attempt to improve reception for WTTG-DT, I picked up an amplifier yesterday and tested it with some screwy results: I still can't pick up WTTG-DT, I get an OK lock on WJZ-DT (out of Baltimore), and I completely lose WMPT if the amp is so much as plugged in, even if it's set to minimum gain.



If you check the Baltimore-Washington thread, you will see a lot of postings on the status of WTTG-DT Fox 5 and WDCA-DT My 20. The digital antennas for both stations are in the process of being replaced or upgraded. The new antenna for WTTG-DT has yet to go up. It is not clear what antenna WTTG-DT is using while the upgrade work is going on, but the reception has been spotty for many people the past few weeks. The work was supposed to be done by labor day weekend, but has been delayed by weather (that is the excuse anyway). WTTG-DT and WDCA-DT have been going off the air during weekdays quite frequently since July so don't over react if you get nothing for either during the day. I would wait for the upgrade work to be finished for WTTG-DT before spending a lot of money on other antennas or gear to get their signal.


----------



## fedward




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would wait for the upgrade work to be finished for WTTG-DT before spending a lot of money on other antennas or gear to get their signal.



Thanks for the reply. I kinda forgot there's a whole Washington/Baltimore thread. (D'oh!). As for my antenna, I did see the construction permit for WTTG on the FCC web site, but I didn't know if that was any reliable indicator that things will actually get better. That said, if they actually finish what they've got the permit for, the extra 25 feet of tower should probably solve my reception problem.


Considering that the amplifier made my signal quality numbers go down for all the other locals, I'm probably going to stick with the unamplified MS-1000, and kick around the idea of a directional antenna for Baltimore locals if I get bored with what I'm getting now.


----------



## grityyz

I am installing a CM 7777 for my Dad this weekend, he lives in a log home, and pre-run wires makes things a bit difficult when managing where in the line I can place certain things.


I am doing this install for a chance to boost both VHF analog and UHF digital signals throughout the house for multiple tvs. Not being familiar with the wireing, and not living close, I'm not sure where in the line I will be able to put the power box for the CM 7777.


I know that running everything pre-splitter is the best option, but if that option is not available to me, will the amp still work if the power box is located after the splitter in the line?


Also, I know the main unit of the amp should be as close to the antenna as possible, but again, unsure of exactly what I'm dealing with, will this work - even somewhat- if I can not place either the head unit or the power unit in their ideal locations, or will I get 'nothing'???


----------



## holl_ands

Most splitters will block the power signal from the power insertion module to the Preamp.

However, most "Satellite Splitters" are designed to pass power from the SAT Receiver to the SAT Dish (on one or both ports) and hence will do what you need:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 

Note that the Philips Satellite Splitter has POWER PASS on both ports and extends the bandwidth beyond the TV band into the SAT frequency band.


Do not confuse the above "Satellite Splitter" with a "Satellite Duplexer", which passes only the TV freq band on one port and only the SAT freq band on the other port:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 

A pair of these is used to share a single downlead coax between a TV Antenna and a SAT Dish.


----------



## geogecko

There are some issues with trying to place a power injector after a splitter.


1. Depending on how the splitter is designed, the splitter may have a series resitive element, which means, that depending on how much current the amplifier is drawing, will produce a loss in voltage (V=IR), which usually means, less Vp-p that the amplifier can swing, which may either not provide you with enough amplification, or may introduce clipping of the signal.

2. If you are not careful, you may blow up a receiver, if you do not make sure that the power injector DC voltage does not go to the other output of the splitter. In other words, you would either need to buy a DC block for the other output of the splitter, or ensure that you buy a splitter that contains a DC block for one of it's outputs.


While it may not be easy, it may be wise to just see if you can connect the power injector directly to the amplfier, if a power outlet is close by. This eliminates any guess work. Otherwise, you may need to disconnect every TV in the house, hook up the power injector, and go measure DC voltage at every TV location, to make sure a splitter isn't in the loop somewhere.


EDIT:


Looks like Holl_ands covered it. But, that part that was suggested (first one), make SURE that you DC block the other output port. I don't see anywhere where it says that one is DC blocked from the other...but maybe it is... Use a voltmeter to be sure.


----------



## AntAltMike

If a splitter passes power on one port and blocks it on the other, it will have a line on the sticker label that goes from the common port to the power-passing port.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do not confuse the above "Satellite Splitter" with a "Satellite Duplexer", which passes only the TV freq band on one port and only the SAT freq band on the other port:
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search
> 
> A pair of these is used to share a single downlead coax between a TV Antenna and a SAT Dish.



Also, do not confuse the $19.95 diplexer in the above link for a good value. I just bough a case of 100 diplexers for $1 each. You should be able to find them in single quantities for $3 each or less.


----------



## klipsch

I figured I would share my experiences from Collegeville, PA ...


I just purchased/tried the 40" boom (15-2160) and 120" boom (15-2154) from RS. I also tried the circular directional antenna (15-2187). I added the Signal Amplifier (15-2507) to the 120". I was only able to get Channel 3 with all 3 of them. 77% Was my highest signal which I got with both the circular directional and the 120" with the amp. Each boom was placed in my attick and off of my second story deck. The attic actually got better signals when pointed at 140 degrees as suggested by antennaweb.


As I posted before, I only have 14 miles to the towers, but antennaweb says I require a violet-uhf. I really do not know what antenna or what exactly to try next. Does anyone have any ideas or am I SOL?


----------



## newsposter

klipsch you must have some serious blockage to not get a signal that close. I"m 40 miles out and a DB8 works fine for all the philly stuff plus some NJ stuff even. I can't say if DB8 would work in your particular circumstance, only that the $100 bucks was worth it in my circumstance.


for some additional perspective also, even indoors i was able to get cbs, abc, nbc pretty strongly but fox and wb were iffy so I had to move it outside.


maybe ask more in the philly thread?


----------



## texasbrit

Have you tried a CM4228, it's got great UHF performance but as a bonus also works well at hi-VHF (where the DB-8 is very weak)


----------



## rcodey

I received the 9253 preamp from Research Communications.The power unit has three wires and the one page info sheet states that brown is live,blue is neutral and yellow/green is earth.I'm not an electrican nor electrically inclined.How do I connect the power unit to my household power? Do I need an apadter or device?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rcodey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I received the 9253 preamp from Research Communications.The power unit has three wires and the one page info sheet states that brown is live,blue is neutral and yellow/green is earth.I'm not an electrican nor electrically inclined.How do I connect the power unit to my household power? Do I need an adapter or device?



Their website sez that it requires +12 VDC, which can be supplied either via the coax or separate wiring, depending on how you order it:
http://www.researchcomms.com/hdtv.html 

Didn't you also order the Model 9251 Power Supply???

Rather than take a guess, I would suggest you contact R-C to make sure you have what you need and how they recommend connecting it.


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rcodey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I received the 9253 preamp from Research Communications.The power unit has three wires and the one page info sheet states that brown is live,blue is neutral and yellow/green is earth.I'm not an electrican nor electrically inclined.How do I connect the power unit to my household power? Do I need an apadter or device?



Household wiring (US) - black is live, white is neutral, and green or uninsulated is ground. If you just want to plug it in, buy a three-prong plug and hook up the ground wire to the round ground pin, the neutral wire to the wider flat pin, and the hot wire to the narrower flat pin.


Make sure that this unit is supposed to get 120V first!


----------



## rcodey

Thanks for the info NY and yes the info sheet says the power supply runs 110-120 volts AC.


----------



## rcodey

Looked on Radio Shack and Goggle and could not find a three prong plug that accepts three wire inputs on the non-plug side.Does anyone know where I could find one?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rcodey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Looked on Radio Shack and Goggle and could not find a three prong plug that accepts three wire inputs on the non-plug side.Does anyone know where I could find one?



You should be able to find something in your local Home Depot (or equivalent).


Here is a variety of choices from Parts Express (also a good source for cables, adapters, speakers, etc):
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage....7&WebPage_ID=3 

You can also sign up for their free catalog.


I found the search engines for the usual electronics supply houses to be very difficult to yield useful/viewable results--so I suggest ordering free print catalogs from MOUSER and/or NEWARK:
http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler=catalog 
http://www.newark.com/


----------



## cutshot70

I've been reading through this thread trying to get an idea of what my options are for OTA after purchasing my first HDTV. Here's my question based on two options:


1. South Bend locals. I have a clear southwest view across the lake I live on toward 216 degrees and these are all UHF channels at a distance of 50 miles (but no ABC).


2. Grand Rapids locals which range from -2.1 to 5.8 degrees at an average distance of 35 miles. A mix of UHF and VHF and the CBS station broadcasts on channel 2. The north side of my house has several tall trees close by.


The local PBS station is 10 miles away at 338 degrees and I think I can get that either way.


So, am I more likely to find an antenna that gives me consistent performance in one scenario over another? Does the mix of UHF/VHF, low power and trees present more of a reception challenge than the UHF SB channels that are 15 to 20 miles further away?


Thanks for your input.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasbrit* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Have you tried a CM4228, it's got great UHF performance but as a bonus also works well at hi-VHF (where the DB-8 is very weak)



is there anything that would get 6 in? In 2009 our abc is going back to 6 and that gives me scant 3 years to find a replacement for the db8


----------



## mwl001

Wanted to post this since everyone else's experience and advice has been so helpful -- I believe I've found my solution!


Phoenix proper, 4.5 miles from the towers

HR10-250 DirecTV receiver

Zenith Silver Sensor

Stucco 2 story house


I first tried an RCA ANT 145, on clearance at Target, since I was so close I didn't think it would be worth spending any more on an antenna. However, from what I've gathered, the HR10-250 is easily overloaded by a strong signal, which is what I believe I get, being so close. Also, the RCA was omni-directional, and with all the fences and houses around I'm guessing I get a ton of multipath as well. Long story short, I could get a good signal on all the networks that matter to me (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, PBS), but I would always have to choose at least one station that came in unreliably. Not a big deal, unless you need to have the capability to record on any channel at any time (can't be there to babysit reception!) So, the RCA not only overloaded the receiver with a strong signal, but it also gave it way too many choices. Based on my need for directionality, no need for VHF, and no need for amplification, I purchased a Silver Sensor yesterday and I think I'm set. I was most worried about the effect my chicken-wire-wrapped stucco house would have on an indoor antenna, but it doesn't seem to be a problem. However, I think I'm picking up secondary signals, which is fine, since they're constant for all stations between 85-90 (according to the HR10). I have the antenna oriented at a 90 degree angle to the exterior wall only an inch away, between the wall and the 50 inch plasma TV. I'm assuming secondary signals because never before have all the signals been more tightly grouped in terms of strength -- I can get better reception than that if I point directly at the towers, which I can see out a window less than 2 feet from the TV. However, pointing directly at the towers didn't yield a satisfactory signal on all channels for some reason, possibly because it was too strong? It seems like the best strategy is to start pointing directly at the towers (from antennaweb), finding your weakest station, then adjusting until that station is the strongest. It's likely there will still be an adequate signal for other stations, since this antenna gets such a good signal. I'm guessing the only adjustments others in Phoenix would have to make would be either attenuation or amplification, because all the towers are located in the same location for most.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cutshot70* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does the mix of UHF/VHF, low power and trees present more of a reception challenge than the UHF SB channels that are 15 to 20 miles further away?



Over water is almost like free distance - the resistance to the signal is so low that people get great results over 100 miles away. So the trees would likely be more of a problem.


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cutshot70* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So, am I more likely to find an antenna that gives me consistent performance in one scenario over another? Does the mix of UHF/VHF, low power and trees present more of a reception challenge than the UHF SB channels that are 15 to 20 miles further away?



Maybe 1 VHF antenna, 1 UHF -- point the UHF across the lake and pick up CBS (on VHF which isn't as affected by terrain) from the north, then combine them. Not sure what you'd do with the PBS; depending on how directional your UHF antenna is, you might get it.


----------



## rcodey




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You should be able to find something in your local Home Depot (or equivalent).
> 
> 
> Here is a variety of choices from Parts Express (also a good source for cables, adapters, speakers, etc):
> http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage....7&WebPage_ID=3
> 
> You can also sign up for their free catalog.
> 
> 
> I found the search engines for the usual electronics supply houses to be very difficult to yield useful/viewable results--so I suggest ordering free print catalogs from MOUSER and/or NEWARK:
> http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler=catalog
> http://www.newark.com/



Great advice Holl and Thanks! Walked into Home Depot and they had the connectors in electrical.


----------



## Mrboombastik

Hi all


I just bought a 42in LCD screen from Spectre, What's the best indoor or outdoor HD antenna out there for Local HD channel broadcast?


Thanx all


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mrboombastik* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi all
> 
> 
> I just bought a 42in LCD screen from Spectre, What's the best indoor or outdoor HD antenna out there for Local HD channel broadcast?
> 
> 
> Thanx all



Go to www.antennaweb.org first and see what type of antenna they recommend, then report back.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mrboombastik* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What's the best indoor or outdoor HD antenna out there for Local HD channel broadcast?



Oh, if only it were that simple. But then, if it were this thread wouldn't be approaching 5,000 posts.


----------



## etcarroll

Amen!




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Oh, if only it were that simple. But then, if it were this thread wouldn't be approaching 5,000 posts.


----------



## BoB-O TiVo

Hey all,


I've decided to get a dedicated UHF antenna for HDTV. As I'd like to use the primary VHF on my combo antenna, I'll need to get a combiner. Do combiners usually filter the inputs to strip the UHF off the VHF input and vice versa? If not, what can I do to isolate the VHF on my combo antenna?


Thanks,

BoB


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mrboombastik* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi... What's the best indoor or outdoor HD antenna out there for Local HD channel broadcast?



Pass on any that claim to use "Spirilateral Technology".


----------



## Keenan

Would that be like using the coil springs out of my truck and mounting them horizontally? Probably look pretty cool...hmm...maybe not..


----------



## Konrad2

> I've decided to get a dedicated UHF antenna for HDTV. As I'd like to use the primary VHF on my

> combo antenna, I'll need to get a combiner. Do combiners usually filter the inputs to strip the UHF

> off the VHF input and vice versa? If not, what can I do to isolate the VHF on my combo antenna?


I'm not sure exactly what is in those things, but they don't do a great job of filtering.

You can try a good UHF antenna alone and see if it has enough VHF response.

If not, you could try a low-pass filter between the VHF antenna and the combiner,

and a high-pass filter between the UHF antenna and the combiner. The question

is where to find filters with cutoff frequencies appropriate for OTA rather

than cable. If you find anything, please let us know.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BoB-O TiVo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey all,
> 
> 
> I've decided to get a dedicated UHF antenna for HDTV. As I'd like to use the primary VHF on my combo antenna, I'll need to get a combiner. Do combiners usually filter the inputs to strip the UHF off the VHF input and vice versa? If not, what can I do to isolate the VHF on my combo antenna?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> BoB



You just need a uhf/vhf diplexer. They are available from multiple manufacturers including RS, Pico, Channelmaster. Attach the output from the combo antenna to the diplexer's vhf input, the output from the uhf antenna to its uhf input. Now your combo antenna has effectively been converted to a vhf-only antenna as the diplexer will filter out the uhf frequencies on its vhf input.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You can try a good UHF antenna alone and see if it has enough VHF response.
> 
> If not, you could try a low-pass filter between the VHF antenna and the combiner,
> 
> and a high-pass filter between the UHF antenna and the combiner. The question
> 
> is where to find filters with cutoff frequencies appropriate for OTA rather
> 
> than cable. If you find anything, please let us know.



See above.


----------



## BoB-O TiVo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You just need a uhf/vhf diplexer. They are available from multiple manufacturers including RS, Pico, Channelmaster. Attach the output from the combo antenna to the diplexer's vhf input, the output from the uhf antenna to its uhf input. Now your combo antenna has effectively been converted to a vhf-only antenna as the diplexer will filter out the uhf frequencies on its vhf input.



Do you happen to have a web link handy for a simple diplexer?


Also, do you suppose the CM 7777 preamp has the correct filtering built-in? I'm a bit leery to use the 7777 as I'm only 10-15 miles away and it has an awful lot of gain. Right now I'm using a ratshak 10-20db preamp/amp, but it doesn't have separate VHF and UHF, so I may just go with the diplexer.


BoB


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BoB-O TiVo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do you happen to have a web link handy for a simple diplexer?
> 
> 
> Also, do you suppose the CM 7777 preamp has the correct filtering built-in? I'm a bit leery to use the 7777 as I'm only 10-15 miles away and it has an awful lot of gain. Right now I'm using a ratshak 10-20db preamp/amp, but it doesn't have separate VHF and UHF, so I may just go with the diplexer.
> 
> 
> BoB



The CM7777 has an internal uhf/vhf diplexer, but you are right you are too close.


UHF/VHF diplexers:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...tId=2103923&cp 

http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf 

http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm (CM 0549)


----------



## BoB-O TiVo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The CM7777 has an internal uhf/vhf diplexer, but you are right you are too close.
> 
> 
> UHF/VHF diplexers:
> 
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...tId=2103923&cp
> 
> http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf
> 
> http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm (CM 0549)



Thanks! I see Warren Electronics also carries the CM0549. Since I want to get that and a 4221, they look like a good choice. Are they reputable?


Thanks,

BoB


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BoB-O TiVo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks! I see Warren Electronics also carries the CM0549. Since I want to get that and a 4221, they look like a good choice. Are they reputable?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> BoB



Sure.


----------



## Konrad2

cpcat wrote:


> Originally Posted by Konrad2

>> You can try a good UHF antenna alone and see if it has enough VHF response.

>> If not, you could try a low-pass filter between the VHF antenna and the combiner,

>> and a high-pass filter between the UHF antenna and the combiner. The question

>> is where to find filters with cutoff frequencies appropriate for OTA rather

>> than cable. If you find anything, please let us know.

>

> See above.


You missed an important part:


>> they don't do a great job of filtering.


I'm sure that in some cases, the crappy filtering that combiners/diplexors

do is enough. But in other cases it is not, and I'm still looking for

a good source of OTA frequency filters.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure that in some cases, the crappy filtering that combiners/diplexors
> 
> do is enough. But in other cases it is not, and I'm still looking for
> 
> a good source of OTA frequency filters.



For most OTA applications they work fine. Not sure what your specific needs are, but you can order customized diplexers/filters here: http://www.tinlee.com


----------



## Reuban

Hello, new to the HD world, and I am about to take the plunge and Buy an HD TV.


I have D* and they do not offer HD locals in my area, because of the small market.


This is my Attenaweb output:


* yellow - uhf WHRM-DT 20.1 PBS WAUSAU WI 347° 32.6 24

* yellow - uhf WAOW-DT 9.1 ABC WAUSAU WI 347° 32.6 29

* red - uhf WSAW-DT 7.1 CBS WAUSAU WI 347° 32.6 40


So My first question is, what's a good antenna in the "Mid Sized" Directional Category. I've got some tall tree's on my lot, and I'm hoping that the Mid Sized will be enough.


As you can see there is no digital fox or nbc in my area. Now NBC is not a big deal, because I can get an HD exception to the national feed, however Fox will not allow this. I believe the following analog channel has a Digital HD counter part:


WLUK 11 FOX GREEN BAY WI 93° 75.8 11


But is not listed on my list. Do I have any chance of getting a digital channel from 75 miles? And if so I'm assuming I would need two antenna's due to the almost right angle of the directions I would need to point them.


Thanks for your help.


Reu


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Reuban* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So My first question is, what's a good antenna in the "Mid Sized" Directional Category.
> 
> 
> Do I have any chance of getting a digital channel from 75 miles? And if so I'm assuming I would need two antenna's due to the almost right angle of the directions I would need to point them.



A good midsized antenna is the Channel Master 4221. Should easily do the trick for 30 miles.


75 miles is possible, if everything is in your favor. The higher you get the antenna, the better. You'd also want something like the AntennasDirect 91XG to get as much signal as possible, combined with a Channel Master 7777 preamplifier. Even then, it may not be enough, or may only work some of the time. You'll need a Jointenna to combine the signals from the two antennas, as well.


----------



## lovebohn

Reu,


Where do you live? Your correct about Fox but you should be able to pull in the NBC station from Eau Claire.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sregener* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You'll need a Jointenna to combine the signals from the two antennas, as well.



Or a rotator.


----------



## KeithAR2002

All of my digitals are 75-80 miles out (save for one PBS station)..and with the 4228, rotator, and 7777 preamp, I usually have good luck with them in time for primetime HD. I can get all the HD feeds from D*, but OTA quality is a lot better, if possible










My system is only about 27 feet up...so I bet if I could get it on a tower, reception would improve drastically.


Which antenna is a better performer? The 4228, or the 91XG?


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KeithAR2002* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My system is only about 27 feet up...so I bet if I could get it on a tower, reception would improve drastically.
> 
> 
> Which antenna is a better performer? The 4228, or the 91XG?



Once you're about 10' above local obstructions (trees, hills inside of 1 mile, houses) the gains from more antenna height are minimal.


The 4228 and the 91XG are about the same. However, they are different designs so one may outperform the other in specific situations. The 91XG is preferred for rotor installs because it is lighter and has lower wind load. Most rotors (Ham-based ones excepted) burn out quickly spinning a 4228.


----------



## Reuban

Bohn,


I'm located in Plover, so I belever Eau Claire is even further than GB =)


Reu


----------



## lovebohn

Rue,

I live in Rapids and have had no problems getting channel 13 in the past. I use the 4228 with the CM 7777 preamp roof mounted and pull Wausau in the 90's and Eau Claire in the 60's. I bought a rotor but found aiming the antenna at Eau Claire will pull Wausau in 70's and get NBC fine. I have not put this antenna on the roof of our new house yet but have tried the smaller version in the attic and get Wausau great and even the analog NBC, but not the digital. I live near a large amount of tall trees now which i think is causing the problem. Madison and Green Bay just don't work unless i install a tall tower but i could get La Cross and even Iowa on good days go figure?? You might have better luck in Plover with Green Bay, I know at my parents with a 40ft tower i could get channel 2 from Green Bay with no problems. Please look over in the LaCrosse/Wausau thread too. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...12#post8419512


----------



## Mrboombastik




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Go to www.antennaweb.org first and see what type of antenna they recommend, then report back.




Thanks Ram


I've checked on the site my location is about 7-65miles from the broacast antennas.


The furthest one

violet - uhf KTLN-DT 47.1 IND NOVATO CA 308° 65.4 47


The closest one being

yellow - uhf KRON-DT 4.1 MNT SAN FRANCISCO CA 293° 40.4 57


What is the difference between the


Yellow UHF

Red UHF

Blue VHF

Violet UHF

Violet VHF


Thanks


----------



## Noah

I live in the 5th floor of a 6-story building on the North side of downtown St. Paul, MN. Here's my AntennaWeb reading:


* yellow - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 340° 8.2 32

* yellow - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 340° 8.2 35

* yellow - uhf KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN 340° 8.2 44

* yellow - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL MN 340° 8.2 50

* green - uhf WUCW-DT 23.1 CW MINNEAPOLIS MN 340° 8.2 22

* red - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 344° 7.7 26

* red - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 344° 7.7 21

* red - uhf KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 344° 7.7 34

* red - uhf KTCI-DT 17.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 344° 7.7 16


So far I've tried a Silver Sensor and a Godar Electronics Super Antenna I (a combination dipole/yagi). I'm having trouble getting channels 2, 11, 17, 41 (which I can do without) and 45. 11 and 45 I can get sporadically by moving the antenna, but it's not a workable solution.


I'm stuck using whatever I get indoors but I'd be willing to try a small outdoor model like an Antennas Direct DB2/DB4 or a Winegard PR-9012 . My only windows face Southwest, unfortunately, and all the stations are a few degrees West of due North.


Any suggestions?


----------



## LlamaLarry

I've had a CM 7777 for several years, but recently paired it with a CM 4228 when I switched to HD. Was working great until this evening.


I was replacing the RG59 that was there when I bought the house with ~100 feet of RG11. Apparently the last time I was on the roof I decided to be dumb and tightened the heck out of the Output/Power connection. I had to use a wrench to get it off, but all I really did was break the barrel connector loose from the legs inside.







I even managed to completely break off the two outermost legs from their traces (and they fell out when I removed the board from the cover). :::sigh:::


Does anyone have a schematic of a 7777, or a physical unit handy? I am pretty sure what I have to jump but would be nice to know it's right the first time.


----------



## bourmb

Here is my antennaweb download for 61571:

Antenna

yellow - uhf WMBD 31 CBS PEORIA IL 234° 6.9 31

* yellow - uhf WMBD-DT 30.1 CBS PEORIA IL 233° 6.9 30

yellow - uhf WEEK 25 NBC PEORIA IL 233° 7.5 25

* yellow - uhf WEEK-DT 25.1 NBC PEORIA IL 233° 7.5 57

yellow - uhf WTVP 47 PBS PEORIA IL 238° 8.5 47

* yellow - uhf WTVP-DT 47.1 PBS PEORIA IL 238° 8.5 46

yellow - uhf WYZZ 43 FOX BLOOMINGTON IL 105° 13.8 43

* yellow - uhf WYZZ-DT 43.1 FOX BLOOMINGTON IL 105° 13.8 28

yellow - uhf WHOI 19 ABC PEORIA IL 251° 8.6 19

* yellow - uhf WHOI-DT 19.1 ABC CREVE COEUR IL 251° 8.6 40

yellow - uhf WAOE 59 MNT PEORIA IL 307° 3.3 59

* yellow - uhf WAOE-DT 39.1 MNT PEORIA IL 215° 4.7 39

red - uhf W50DD 50 TBN PEORIA IL 217° 11.8 50

blue - uhf W51CT 51 TBN BLOOMINGTON IL 123° 27.3 51

blue - uhf WRSP 55 FOX SPRINGFIELD IL 181° 62.0 55

blue - uhf WBUI 23 CW DECATUR IL 149° 56.6 23

blue - uhf WAND 17 NBC DECATUR IL 149° 60.4 17

blue - uhf WWTO 35 TBN LASALLE IL 33° 48.0 35


I live in a 2 story house with a D* satelite feed into a Sony SXRD 50". I at a minimum want to receive all HD locals in YELLOW. Additional analog outside of Peoria (red/blue) might be a bonus but is certainly not mandatory. I would mount external on the roof. Would a CM 4221 do the trick? What about a AD 1XG instead? I am also concerned about the mount being wind-resistant. I am thinking a DB4, CM 4221, or Winegard PR4400 would be more than sufficient due to the low mileage to all towers around me. Which one would be better? Since my indoor Terk TV-5 works great for all channels (signal strength 93 using the D* signal meter) except WMBD, WHOI, and CW (new), can I setup my system to use the Terk TV-5 for FOX WYZZ and a one of the above antennas mentioned for everything else? What about a pre-amp? If I used a CM 7777, would it overload the signal? Would a Winegard HDP-269 or AP-8800 be a better choice?


----------



## lovebohn




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Noah* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live in the 5th floor of a 6-story building on the North side of downtown St. Paul, MN. Here's my AntennaWeb reading:
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 340° 8.2 32
> 
> * yellow - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 340° 8.2 35
> 
> * yellow - uhf KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN 340° 8.2 44
> 
> * yellow - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL MN 340° 8.2 50
> 
> * green - uhf WUCW-DT 23.1 CW MINNEAPOLIS MN 340° 8.2 22
> 
> * red - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 344° 7.7 26
> 
> * red - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 344° 7.7 21
> 
> * red - uhf KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 344° 7.7 34
> 
> * red - uhf KTCI-DT 17.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 344° 7.7 16
> 
> 
> So far I've tried a Silver Sensor and a Godar Electronics Super Antenna I (a combination dipole/yagi). I'm having trouble getting channels 2, 11, 17, 41 (which I can do without) and 45. 11 and 45 I can get sporadically by moving the antenna, but it's not a workable solution.
> 
> 
> I'm stuck using whatever I get indoors but I'd be willing to try a small outdoor model like an Antennas Direct DB2/DB4 or a Winegard PR-9012 . My only windows face Southwest, unfortunately, and all the stations are a few degrees West of due North.
> 
> 
> Any suggestions?



I think you need to get one on the roof if you can or is going outside of your windows the only option? Do you have other large building around you apartment?


----------



## Noah




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lovebohn* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think you need to get one on the roof if you can or is going outside of your windows the only option? Do you have other large building around you apartment?



Unfortunately, I think even outside the windows would be a stretch.


There are other large buildings around, but most are South of me while the transmitters are North. I'm sure I'm still getting multipath from them, but I don't think they're interfering with my line of sight reception.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mrboombastik* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What is the difference between
> 
> 
> Yellow UHF
> 
> Red UHF
> 
> Blue VHF
> 
> Violet UHF
> 
> Violet VHF
> 
> 
> Thanks



If you click on the colorized block, antennaweb.org provides the fol chart:
http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/antenna.aspx?color=B 

also see the fol. additional explanation of the color code system:
http://www.solidsignal.tv/about_CEA.asp 


This site lists those antennas CLAIMING to be certifed for the different colors---

although I think that there are many wild claims of overperformance included in these charts:
http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/hdtv-antenna-zones.php 


Various sites list the CEA antenna certification in their list of specs, for example:
http://www.solidsignal.tv/channelmas...enna_chart.asp 
http://www.solidsignal.tv/winegard_antenna_chart.asp 


Many manufacturers, including Antennas Direct, also use a "range" recommendation system:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/hdtv_a..._selector.html 
http://www.antennasdirect.com/HDTV_antennas.html


----------



## bourmb

Here is my antennaweb download for 61571:

Antenna

yellow - uhf WMBD 31 CBS PEORIA IL 234° 6.9 31

* yellow - uhf WMBD-DT 30.1 CBS PEORIA IL 233° 6.9 30

yellow - uhf WEEK 25 NBC PEORIA IL 233° 7.5 25

* yellow - uhf WEEK-DT 25.1 NBC PEORIA IL 233° 7.5 57

yellow - uhf WTVP 47 PBS PEORIA IL 238° 8.5 47

* yellow - uhf WTVP-DT 47.1 PBS PEORIA IL 238° 8.5 46

yellow - uhf WYZZ 43 FOX BLOOMINGTON IL 105° 13.8 43

* yellow - uhf WYZZ-DT 43.1 FOX BLOOMINGTON IL 105° 13.8 28

yellow - uhf WHOI 19 ABC PEORIA IL 251° 8.6 19

* yellow - uhf WHOI-DT 19.1 ABC CREVE COEUR IL 251° 8.6 40

yellow - uhf WAOE 59 MNT PEORIA IL 307° 3.3 59

* yellow - uhf WAOE-DT 39.1 MNT PEORIA IL 215° 4.7 39

red - uhf W50DD 50 TBN PEORIA IL 217° 11.8 50

blue - uhf W51CT 51 TBN BLOOMINGTON IL 123° 27.3 51

blue - uhf WRSP 55 FOX SPRINGFIELD IL 181° 62.0 55

blue - uhf WBUI 23 CW DECATUR IL 149° 56.6 23

blue - uhf WAND 17 NBC DECATUR IL 149° 60.4 17

blue - uhf WWTO 35 TBN LASALLE IL 33° 48.0 35


I live in a 2 story house with a D* satelite feed into a Sony SXRD 50". I at a minimum want to receive all HD locals in YELLOW. Additional analog outside of Peoria (red/blue) might be a bonus but is certainly not mandatory. I would mount external on the roof. Would a CM 4221 do the trick? What about a AD 1XG instead? I am also concerned about the mount being wind-resistant. I am thinking a DB4, CM 4221, or Winegard PR4400 would be more than sufficient due to the low mileage to all towers around me. Which one would be better? Since my indoor Terk TV-5 works great for all channels (signal strength 93 using the D* signal meter) except WMBD, WHOI, and CW (new), can I setup my system to use the Terk TV-5 for FOX WYZZ and a one of the above antennas mentioned for everything else? What about a pre-amp? If I used a CM 7777, would it overload the signal? Would a Winegard HDP-269 or AP-8800 be a better choice?


----------



## cutshot70

I live in Kalamazoo and my problem is with trying to get the Grand Rapids locals. The north side of my house has several tall trees close by, there's a mix of UHF/VHF and CBS is on channel 2. I've been considering going another route - South Bend for OTA. I have a clear southwest view across the lake I live on toward 216 degrees where all the towers are located - they are all UHF channels at a distance of 50 miles.


Here's what Mike at Solid Signal says:

_I recommend the Terrestrial Digital 43xg antenna. You need a Mast, Mount, and a CM 7777pre-amp!
_

I'm going to mount it on my DirectTV dish.


Anyone out there in similar circumstances using this set-up? How's it working for you?


Craig


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bourmb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1) Would a CM 4221 do the trick?
> 
> 
> 2) What about a AD 1XG instead?
> 
> 
> 3) I am also concerned about the mount being wind-resistant. I am thinking a DB4, CM 4221, or Winegard PR4400 would be more than sufficient due to the low mileage to all towers around me. Which one would be better?
> 
> 
> 4) Since my indoor Terk TV-5 works great for all channels (signal strength 93 using the D* signal meter) except WMBD, WHOI, and CW (new), can I setup my system to use the Terk TV-5 for FOX WYZZ and a one of the above antennas mentioned for everything else?
> 
> 
> 5) What about a pre-amp?
> 
> 
> 6) If I used a CM 7777, would it overload the signal?
> 
> 
> 7) Would a Winegard HDP-269 or AP-8800 be a better choice?



1) Most probably.


2) The 91XG? Overkill. I can't find a 1XG.


3) The wind load of those three antennas is likely to be the same.


4) This is a good choice, but you'll need a Channel Master Jointenna tuned to channel 28 for it to work. A Jointenna has two inputs - one for channel 28, and another for "everything else."


5) Why do you think you need a preamp? They're not magic devices that automatically make reception better. In your case, I suspect they would make things much worse.


6) Definitely. No doubt about it. Overload city.


7) The 269 is a better choice if you need amplification, but I don't think you'll need it. Preamps help with weak signals only, and you've got a lot of really strong signals there. I couldn't live without my preamp, but my nearest station is almost 30 miles away. Inside of 20 miles, anything other than the 269 is going to overload.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bourmb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here is my antennaweb download for 61571:
> 
> * yellow - uhf WMBD-DT 30.1 CBS PEORIA IL 233° 6.9 30
> 
> * yellow - uhf WEEK-DT 25.1 NBC PEORIA IL 233° 7.5 57
> 
> * yellow - uhf WTVP-DT 47.1 PBS PEORIA IL 238° 8.5 46
> 
> * yellow - uhf WYZZ-DT 43.1 FOX BLOOMINGTON IL 105° 13.8 28
> 
> * yellow - uhf WHOI-DT 19.1 ABC CREVE COEUR IL 251° 8.6 40
> 
> * yellow - uhf WAOE-DT 39.1 MNT PEORIA IL 215° 4.7 39
> 
> ...
> 
> Would a CM 4221 do the trick? What about a AD 1XG instead?



You are not very far from your primary stations. Keep it simple before you worry about pre-amps which unless you have a long cable run or distant stations (> 40 miles) you want to try to pickup.


For starters, a Zenith/Philips Silver Sensor should outperform that Terk. You may get all the digital stations on the list above with just a Silver Sensor even with the Fox station in the opposite direction. But if you want to go with a roof or attic setup, a better choice in this situation would be the CM 4221 or the AntennasDirect DB-2. My CM4221 picks up 2 stations at over 40 miles in the backside of the antenna, so the flat screen design with bowties does have a good backlobe response. I expect either antenna up on a roof or in a attic would way outperform the Terk TV-5 and get all your local stations aimed in the 240 degree azimuth direction. Get the antenna, try it out, and see what you can get without a pre-amp or other pricey gear.


----------



## bourmb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You are not very far from your primary stations. Keep it simple before you worry about pre-amps which unless you have a long cable run or distant stations (> 40 miles) you want to try to pickup.
> 
> 
> For starters, a Zenith/Philips Silver Sensor should outperform that Terk. You may get all the digital stations on the list above with just a Silver Sensor even with the Fox station in the opposite direction. But if you want to go with a roof or attic setup, a better choice in this situation would be the CM 4221 or the AntennasDirect DB-2. My CM4221 picks up 2 stations at over 40 miles in the backside of the antenna, so the flat screen design with bowties does have a good backlobe response. I expect either antenna up on a roof or in a attic would way outperform the Terk TV-5 and get all your local stations aimed in the 240 degree azimuth direction. Get the antenna, try it out, and see what you can get without a pre-amp or other pricey gear.



I keep hearing about the comparisons between the DB-4 and the 4221. I have even seen testing done and it looks as if the 4221 is slightly better. However, it seems individuals prefer the DB-4. I don't know if the 3x more expensive price factor is really worth the DB-4 besides it being made out of aluminum instead of galvinized steel. Thoughts?


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bourmb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I keep hearing about the comparisons between the DB-4 and the 4221. I have even seen testing done and it looks as if the 4221 is slightly better. However, it seems individuals prefer the DB-4.



Who is that? From my reading of this entire forum, the CM4221 (aka 3021) is recommended much more frequently than the AD DB-4. The price difference is probably the main reason for the popularity of the CM4221 over the DB-4, but both get a lot of positive reports on here. Since CM does not offer a 2 Bay bowtie version, the AntennasDirect DB-2 gets recommendations for situations where a smaller size is needed.


----------



## Noah




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Noah* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live in the 5th floor of a 6-story building on the North side of downtown St. Paul, MN. Here's my AntennaWeb reading:
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 340° 8.2 32
> 
> * yellow - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 340° 8.2 35
> 
> * yellow - uhf KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN 340° 8.2 44
> 
> * yellow - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL MN 340° 8.2 50
> 
> * green - uhf WUCW-DT 23.1 CW MINNEAPOLIS MN 340° 8.2 22
> 
> * red - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 344° 7.7 26
> 
> * red - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 344° 7.7 21
> 
> * red - uhf KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 344° 7.7 34
> 
> * red - uhf KTCI-DT 17.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 344° 7.7 16
> 
> 
> So far I've tried a Silver Sensor and a Godar Electronics Super Antenna I (a combination dipole/yagi). I'm having trouble getting channels 2, 11, 17, 41 (which I can do without) and 45. 11 and 45 I can get sporadically by moving the antenna, but it's not a workable solution.
> 
> 
> I'm stuck using whatever I get indoors but I'd be willing to try a small outdoor model like an Antennas Direct DB2/DB4 or a Winegard PR-9012 . My only windows face Southwest, unfortunately, and all the stations are a few degrees West of due North.
> 
> 
> Any suggestions?



One minor update: Solid Signal recommended a Winegard Sharpshooter SS-3000. I've read mixed reviews of this model, so I'm hesitant to try it. Winegard claims increased resistance to multipath and better reception without line-of-sight, which are 2 of my problems.


Would a CM4221 be a better bet?


----------



## bourmb

I am interested in a CM 4221. I would prefer to install on my roof, too. What typical roof mounts are people using for this type of antenna? Would a Winegard DS-3000 be acceptable with wind or weight of the antenna?


----------



## oregoncalfroper

ok heres one 25 miles from portland antennaweb says i should eb able to get yellow I Am assuming w/o antenna but heres the kicker.... I have a metal roof and I am not getting anything inside with a regualr indoor non amplified antenna because of roof do i need to go outside ?


----------



## nybbler

What's the deal with grounding of antennas? I have a Terk HDTVo attached to my deck and pointing in the right direction, but I haven't connected it inside my house yet. I've found several semi-conflicting bits of advice on grounding


1) Install ground rod and grounding block, connect cable through it at the point nearest the house, and connect rod to block.


2) Do 1), and also connect the mast to the same ground wire


3) Same as 1, but skip the grounding rod and connect to hose bib or house electrical ground. I looked around the neigborhood and this is how the DirectTV guys do it, but they could be lazy rather than right. (the plumbing is all-copper to the ground point)


4) Do 1, and 2, AND connect the ground wire directly to the incoming household electrical ground. One source claims the model electrical code requires this. It's extremely impractical, though -- this is a townhouse and the antenna is located on the opposite side of the house.


Other considerations: the Terk is on its 18" mini-mast, and it's at the level of the middle of the first floor (open basement below and one story above), so I'd expect far less of an issue than with a big antenna on the roof. The association might have issues with my driving in a ground rod, as well.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Noah* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> One minor update: Solid Signal recommended a Winegard Sharpshooter SS-3000. I've read mixed reviews of this model, so I'm hesitant to try it. Winegard claims increased resistance to multipath and better reception without line-of-sight, which are 2 of my problems.
> 
> 
> Would a CM4221 be a better bet?



Why don't you do something that apparently no one else has done with the pricey SS-3000 SharpShooter--

buy both and do a "credible" test of one vs the other? Then return the "loser"...and let us know the results...

I would be curious as to whether (at 8 miles away) the SS-3000's internal amplifier is overloaded or not ....


This appears to be the ONLY SS-3000 reception report in this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...00#post5973045 

It lost out to the Silver Sensor....but YMMV....


Which is why again and again you'll find people recommending the wide beamwidth CM-4221 (and it's kissing cousins the PR-4400 and DB-4) as providing the biggest bang for the buck....unless you truly NEED a big antenna and it's attendant mounting and pointing problems.


----------



## YoungWilliams

High guys. I just got a free upgrade to a Dell W3201c LCD, and it has an ATSC tuner. I need an antenna, but only for my HD channels, as I get my local stations through DirecTV. Here's my antennaweb info:


> Quote:
> * yellow - uhf KOAT-DT 7.1 ABC ALBUQUERQUE NM 62° 6.8 21
> 
> * yellow - uhf KOB-DT 4.1 NBC ALBUQUERQUE NM 64° 6.8 26
> 
> * yellow - uhf KLUZ-DT 41.1 UNI ALBUQUERQUE NM 64° 6.8 42
> 
> * yellow - uhf KNME-DT 5.1 PBS ALBUQUERQUE NM 63° 6.8 35
> 
> * yellow - uhf KTFQ-DT 14 TFA ALBUQUERQUE NM TBD 320° 18.1 14
> 
> * yellow - uhf KASA-DT 2.1 FOX SANTA FE NM 63° 6.8 27
> 
> * yellow - uhf KASY-DT 50.1 MNT ALBUQUERQUE NM 63° 6.8 45
> 
> * yellow - uhf KWBQ-DT 19.1 CW SANTA FE NM 63° 6.8 29
> 
> * yellow - vhf KCHF-DT 10.1 FMN SANTA FE NM 353° 41.2 10
> 
> * green - uhf KAZQ-DT 32.1 IND ALBUQUERQUE NM 62° 6.8 17
> 
> * red - uhf KNAT-DT 24.1 TBN ALBUQUERQUE NM 62° 6.8 24



I'm ridiculously close to the towers on the Sandia Crest, less than 7 miles for the transmitters I care for. I swung by the RadioShack down the street, and all they had was a RadioShack "HD Ready" Antenna (Hoop and Extendable Dipoles, I'd post a link if I could).


With the amp turned off, it pulls in PBS and CBS (antennaweb doesn't show CBS for some reason) fine, barely finds ABC and NBC, and can't find Fox at all. It doesn't pull in any HD channels with the amp on. I'm wondering if I'd do better with an HD specific antenna, like the Silver Sensor or the Terk indoors. Any thoughts? Given my proximity, I'd think I'd be doing much better than I am. My neighbor's second story blocks line of sight, if that matters.


----------



## texasbrit

You are so close that a Silver Sensor should perform very well. You are probably too close for an amplified antenna, you are probably getting signal overload either in the amp or at the tuner when you switch on the amplifier.


----------



## Shygnome

I have D* HD10-250 with all local SD and a FOX HD waiver. I need to add OTA to pickup HD for these three:

* green - uhf KOTV-DT 6.1 CBS TULSA OK 161° 51.0miles 55

* green - uhf KJRH-DT 2.1 NBC TULSA OK 161° 51.0miles 56

* blue - vhf KTUL-DT 8.1 ABC TULSA OK 158° 55.4miles 10


I'd prefer to do a third story attic install, but can go mast on roof if absolutely need be. Any suggestions recomendations as to antenna and assessories would be greatly appreciated.



FYI - here are the remainder of stations available, but lower in priority.


* red - uhf KOED-DT 11.1 PBS TULSA OK 161° 51.0 38

* red - uhf KMYT-DT 41.1 MNT TULSA OK 161° 50.6 42

* red - uhf KOKI-DT 23.1 FOX TULSA OK 161° 50.6 22

* violet - uhf KWHB-DT 47.1 REL TULSA OK 161° 51.0 48

* violet - uhf KDOR-DT 15.1 TBN BARTLESVILLE OK 149° 17.0 15


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Whats the best way to distribute an OTA signal to 5 different things, all in the same room? Is there some sort of "splitter amp" that you can buy?


Thanks.


----------



## newsposter

years ago i bought a R/S distribution amp for about 30 bucks but it only did 4 outputs..perhaps they have updated it since then. I'd even try home depot, they had some interesting stuff when i was there looking for a certain box I needed.


----------



## jerryhiggins

Zip code: 36024


I just set up a 4228 on my roof with a CM 7777 amp and I am trying to get WAKA which is about 58 miles away according to antennaweb. I was able to pull it in Saturday during the day at 68% but it dropped out that night. Sunday it was cloudy and I was getting a reading of 62%.


I want a more reliable signal and was wondering if a XG91 might provide a little better signal.


Thanks.


----------



## bourmb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The mast must be grounded with 10 gauge copper, 8 gauge aluminum or 17 gauge copper clad steel wire. Any auxilliary ground rod driven to develop a more direct path to the earth must be bonded to the building's ground electrode system with *6* gauge copper wire.



Any ideas where I could look around my house foundation for the house grounding rod? It is new construction if that helps. The power distribution box is on an outer wall in the walk-out basement. Would the grounding rod be completely submerged in the soil?


----------



## Rick0725

Best place to look is in the vacinity of your electric meter out doors.


----------



## Davinleeds




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bourmb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Would the grounding rod be completely submerged in the soil?



If final landscape is done some time after electical connection. Follow the electric panel groung wire and observe where the phone company attached their ground-should be the same-near the meter, like rick says.


----------



## bourmb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Davinleeds* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If final landscape is done some time after electical connection. Follow the electric panel groung wire and observe where the phone company attached their ground-should be the same-near the meter, like rick says.



I did landscape around the area and don't remember a grounding rod, so it must be buried somewhat in the area. My meter is right by the phone connection box, so the two as previously mentioned are sharing the same ground.


If I am able to locate the house ground, wouldn't it make sense to just run the ground from the antenna and coax to the house ground rather than creating a seperate ground for the two and running a jumper from the antenna grounding rod to the house grounding rod? The only thing I would need clarification on is there any risk of running the ground lead from one side of the house in the basement along the same path as all my other electrical wires within the floor joists. If I took an electrical hit on my house, the charge would follow that lead that is in very close proximity to all my other 110/220V power leads, too! Your thoughts?


----------



## bourmb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bourmb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I did landscape around the area and don't remember a grounding rod, so it must be buried somewhat in the area. At what depth would it be at? My meter is right by the phone connection box, so the two as previously mentioned are sharing the same ground.
> 
> 
> If I am able to locate the house ground, wouldn't it make sense to just run the ground from the antenna and coax to the house ground rather than creating a seperate ground for the two and running a jumper from the antenna grounding rod to the house grounding rod? The only thing I would need clarification on is there any risk of running the ground lead from one side of the house in the basement along the same path as all my other electrical wires within the floor joists. If I took an electrical hit on my house, the charge would follow that lead that is in very close proximity to all my other 110/220V power leads, too! Your thoughts?



Do I need to treat the ground with respect as I would a live feed?


----------



## Davinleeds

The ground is there as a potential live feed. It's sort of insurance. If a problem develops, the electrical "problem" will "go to ground" instead of you or your house stuff. It should be close cause wire equals money and it has to be installed to code or they're responsible. Take a shovel and dig around-easily-and find the rod to confirm and ease your own mind. Creat a ground close to your antenna/dish, AND connect it to your common ground (at meter). I'd keep wire outside if possible-CHECK LOCAL CODES. Some are different than National. It's all about insurance-and YOU. DO NOT install a separate ground-all must be connected.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jerryhiggins* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> wondering if a XG91 might provide a little better signal.



Probably not. At channel 55 the 4228 and XG91 have about the same gain. Your reception situation likely has more to do with terrain than antenna choice.


----------



## bourmb

Take a look here. I also want to protect my OTA antenna and Satellite coax from my A/V equipment with a surge protector. The problem is it appears you need to spend around $100 to get a setup that has enough coax terminals for both a OTA and satellite connections. Has anyone used a setup like this? http://www.daveswebshop.com/surge1.shtml


----------



## greywolf

A surge protector for Sat and Ant connections is the most useless thing I can think of offhand. Grounding to code specs is all that is required. What would be the source of the surge that a surge protector would help with? It's not going to stop lightning. CableTV is a different matter.


----------



## geogecko




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bourmb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Take a look here. I also want to protect my OTA antenna and Satellite coax from my A/V equipment with a surge protector. The problem is it appears you need to spend around $100 to get a setup that has enough coax terminals for both a OTA and satellite connections. Has anyone used a setup like this? http://www.daveswebshop.com/surge1.shtml



How many coax cables do you have?


I used one of these guys:


Item: 5846804058 on eBay.


I do not see a place to attach a grounding wire to the one you posted. This one has a screw terminal in order to install a #10 wire to your ground rod. They should be placed as close to the place where it enters the dwelling as possible.


IMO, just grounding the antenna mast is not good enough. That still leaves the door open for lightning to get on the coax ground/conductor, and travel into your house. Granted, even with the protector, you may not stand a lightning strike, but you should at a minimum, ground the outer conductor (shield) of the coax to your grounding rod. (They make grounding blocks up to 4 (or maybe 6) in one, that provide this feature. Item: 9707749642)


----------



## PinkSplice

I currently have a Radio Shack VU-190XR that I'm testing. This monster seems to have only fractionally better performance on VHF than my CM 4228's. No pre-amps can be used in my location, as I am 3 miles from the Shrewsbury antenna farm. Tropo ducting is supposed to be good tonight, and I'm hoping for decent reception. If the -190 doesn't deliver (it's been up for two months), it's history, as it is a monster (13 ft boom). Where should I list it for sale? It's too big to ship economically anywhere outside of the local area. Somebody in a rural area will probably appreciate it, and I have a 7778 VHF/UHF pre-amp to go with it.


----------



## bourmb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geogecko* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How many coax cables do you have?
> 
> 
> I used one of these guys:
> 
> 
> Item: 5846804058 on eBay.
> 
> 
> I do not see a place to attach a grounding wire to the one you posted. This one has a screw terminal in order to install a #10 wire to your ground rod. They should be placed as close to the place where it enters the dwelling as possible.
> 
> 
> IMO, just grounding the antenna mast is not good enough. That still leaves the door open for lightning to get on the coax ground/conductor, and travel into your house. Granted, even with the protector, you may not stand a lightning strike, but you should at a minimum, ground the outer conductor (shield) of the coax to your grounding rod. (They make grounding blocks up to 4 (or maybe 6) in one, that provide this feature. Item: 9707749642)



I have the coax lead from my one dish and the OTA antenna.


----------



## geogecko




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bourmb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have the coax lead from my one dish and the OTA antenna.



So if you only have 2 coax cables, how would $7.95 x 2 = >$100?


I'm confused. I thought maybe you had like 8 or more lines coming in...


If you were talking about a power strip surge protector to protect your equipment on the coax side, I'd chunck that idea, because once it's in your house, it's too late. Those are more designed for non-direct lightning strikes (or from the cable company) or for surge supression on your AC lines, an OTA issue would be a direct strike problem.


----------



## bourmb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geogecko* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So if you only have 2 coax cables, how would $7.95 x 2 = >$100?
> 
> 
> I'm confused. I thought maybe you had like 8 or more lines coming in...
> 
> 
> If you were talking about a power strip surge protector to protect your equipment on the coax side, I'd chunck that idea, because once it's in your house, it's too late. Those are more designed for non-direct lightning strikes (or from the cable company) or for surge supression on your AC lines, an OTA issue would be a direct strike problem.



Ok, how about this setup: 1- Quad ground block satellite coax coaxial cable 3Ghz for both my satellite and OTA coax cable coming in the house plus a spike/surge protector ground block for both the OTA and satellite coax. Both would be connected to ground. Which one would you want installed closer to ground, the ground block or the spike/surge protector? With this setup, could I ditch the idea of spending money on another surge protector strip that has 2 sets of coax terminals for the OTA and satellite connections?


Do you notice any degredation of signal with these spike/surge protectors?


----------



## geogecko

I'm not sure you would need both. I've got one of the spike protectors myself, but I can't comment on the loss yet, because I have not installed my antenna outside yet.


I believe it says 1db on the package, but I can't remember for sure.


----------



## greywolf

Grounding the mast and coax bleeds off static buildup which dramatically reduces the chance of a lightning strike. If lightning does strike, you have a problem. No surge protector is going to react in time to a direct strike. Even if it did, lightning has more than enough energy to jump gaps in a line. It's the nearby strikes that propagate through wires and cables or electrical system difficulties that a surge protector can help with. Antennas and dishes are isolated from such conditions because they don't reach beyond your house. Surge protectors can cause problems with signal passage though. For antennas and dishes, surge protectors are as useful as the proverbial mammary glands on amphibians.


----------



## ray50

Just thought I would post my antenna success story. I have OTA only and needed to pull from Location #1 (~35miles away ) and Location #2 (~50 miles away). I had and huge older RS antenna (RS-120 I think) for analog with a RS preamp/amp. After getting a Samsung STB (SIR-151) I started upgrading. First I replaced the RS antenna and coax with a Winegard 8200P and RG-6. Not much different then the RS antenna (but cost a lot more). Next I replaced the RS preamp with a Winegard AP-8275 and saw good VHF analog improvement and some UHF improvement. Next upgraded the old 25 zenith TV and STB to a 32 Sanyo HDTV. Still having some breakups on HDTV and DTV channels. Next I got a Winegard HD9095P high gain UHF antenna and mounted it 4 feet above the 83200P. I then got a UHF/VHF combiner and added the two together. UHF was slightly worse and VHF (analog) was the same as before. Next I removed the 2 UHF solid wires on the 8200P combo antenna from the antenna combiner so that the combo was now just a VHF antenna. YES good strong VHF and UHF. Been using this for months. Very few dropouts from weather or leaves coming out which used to give me problems. Yes it took awhile and some $$ to find a good combination that worked for me BUT, no cable or satellite bill either. (can watch DTV for many days at a time with NO drop out at all and receive about 12 strong DTV channels.)


----------



## bourmb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greywolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Grounding the mast and coax bleeds off static buildup which dramatically reduces the chance of a lightning strike. If lightning does strike, you have a problem. No surge protector is going to react in time to a direct strike. Even if it did, lightning has more than enough energy to jump gaps in a line. It's the nearby strikes that propagate through wires and cables or electrical system difficulties that a surge protector can help with. Antennas and dishes are isolated from such conditions because they don't reach beyond your house. Surge protectors can cause problems with signal passage though. For antennas and dishes, surge protectors are as useful as the proverbial mammary glands on amphibians.



Would the following be a benefit beyond just a coax grounding block connected to ground? Item: 5846804058 on eBay


----------



## Rick0725




> Quote:
> Next I *removed the 2 UHF solid wires* on the 8200P combo antenna from the antenna combiner so that the combo was now just a VHF antenna. YES good strong VHF and UHF.



can you be more specific on your process. exactly what did you do. do not understand from your description.


can you give model#s of combiners,etc.


you have peaked my interest.


central new york? me too.


also have a hd8200p.


----------



## greywolf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bourmb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Would the following be a benefit beyond just a coax grounding block connected to ground? Item: 5846804058 on eBay



For an OTA antenna cable, yes. For a dish, no. It has a gas discharge unit that can help discharge the static buildup on antenna elements by ionizing the gas and allowing the charge on the coax center wire to discharge through the ionized gas to the grounded shield.


----------



## ray50

Rick0725

The HD8200P has a plastic box on the mask which combiles VHF and UHF. There are 2 solid wires that run out of the box toward the UHF driven element and I just pulled them back out of the box and bent them too one side leaving them hang out in free air. This seems to make the 8200 a VHF only antenna only. I think I got the combiner at Rshack but I am not sure. It looks like a splitter but has inputs for UHF (from my HD9095P) and VHF (from my HD8200P) and an output that I connected to my preamp. When I was trying all this I had my daughter down at the TV on a Syracuse DTV channel watching the signal strength meter. I am no expert on antennas but this combo worked the best and gave me the strongest signal. I am 35 miles south west of Syracuse (map and ruler) and 55 miles south east of Rochester. I get good solid DTV from both. I have also locked in on Buffalo (110 miles) DTV stations but not good enough to watch. (also my UHF antenna is about 40' off the ground on my 3 story house chimney.) Good luck with your setup!


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ray50* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Rick0725
> 
> The HD8200P has a plastic box on the mask which combiles VHF and UHF. There are 2 solid wires that run out of the box toward the UHF driven element and I just pulled them back out of the box and bent them too one side leaving them hang out in free air. This seems to make the 8200 a VHF only antenna only.



That will do it. A word to the wise: remove the cartridge before pulling them out, otherwise you might damage it because it when it was installed, its "gas tight"push terminals got wegded into those "wires", which might better be called rails.


----------



## bourmb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greywolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For an OTA antenna cable, yes. For a dish, no. It has a gas discharge unit that can help discharge the static buildup on antenna elements by ionizing the gas and allowing the charge on the coax center wire to discharge through the ionized gas to the grounded shield.



Where would it be of most benefit for its location, near the antenna or ground, before or after the coax grounding block? Would there be any loss of signal quality or strength?


----------



## bourmb

I have my search down to the Monster Power MP-HTS400HP and the Tripp Lite TLP810SAT surge protectors. I like them both as they have 2 sets of Coax protectors. Am I right for thinking Monster products are overpriced and over-hyped?


----------



## Carl Newman

I'd go with Tripp Lite. They were in the electrical/electronic field long before Monster created it's first inflated press release.


Carl


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bourmb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Would the following be a benefit beyond just a coax grounding block connected to ground? Item: 5846804058 on eBay



There are three general types of coax surge protectors (aka Grounding Block):


1) Air Gap--relies on a spark jumping across an air gap:

Which SHOULD be inside a protective enclosure to keep out dirt & dust (most are not).

They also act as a high current conductor when overwhelmed by a high voltage event:
https://www.tselectronic.com/pico/grb_hrl.html 

I've yet to see any specs on breakdown voltage (probably quite high), reaction time

(probably quite slow) and current capability vs time to destruct....

but for house entry points for OTA Antenna, SAT & Cable, they "meet NEC code"....


2) Gas Tube (e.g Holland GRB-AR) with internal spark gap:

Very careful construction means the breakdown characteristics can be controlled

inside the gas filled tube. Holland even provides detailed specs:
http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/upload_file/Filters-Cable_Drop_Protection.pdf 
http://www.l-com.com/item.aspx?id=20928 

But, since they still rely on an "air" gap, the breakdown voltage is fairly high

(90 volts for GRB-AR), so don't expect them to provide very much protection to attached

electronics equipment. Also note the higher current ratings for the Toner Cable devices.


3) Solid State devices (e.g. MOV & Silicon Avalanche, such as Holland SA-1F SiDACtor):
http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/upload_file/Filters-Cable_Drop_Protection.pdf 

have a much lower breakdown voltage (25 volts for the SA-1F) and hence will leak off

static electricity build-up and thereby prevents excessive voltages being applied

to sensitive electronics equipment. But when the solid state device is overstressed,

it will blow, meaning the only protection is whatever air gap was (hopefully???)

intentionally designed into the device.

I've seen many coax MOV type devices listed, but very few quote specs....


If you check the current specs for the Holland devices, note that neither device

will sustain high current conditions for more than a handful of microseconds---

whereas a lightning strike will typically consist of multiple strikes, each lasting

for dozens of microseconds over a period of up to 100 milliseconds.....so don't

think that any of these devices will provide much protection against a direct

lightning spike:
http://www.aharfield.co.uk/lightning-protection-services/about-lightning 


MOV (& Si avalanche) type devices, such as are found in most "Power Surge Protectors",

are usually combined in parallel to increase the overall energy absorbing rating (joules).

As power spikes are absorbed, individual "crystals" within each device are sacrificed,

eventually making each device inoperative....hence the need to parallel individual devices:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varistor 
http://www.teal.com/pdfs/AppsNote11.pdf 

Unfortunately, this can also slowly degrade RF signals going through Coax Surge Protectors,

which can result in significant signal attenuation that increases over time...so test frequently....


=========================================

The best approach is to use a combination of either #1 or #2 for protection

against large (but very rare) surge voltage events and and a solid state devices

to drain off static electricity on a daily basis.


PS: If you have reception problems, carefully check to make sure that these devices

are not contributing excessive loss--esp if the device has undergone one too many spikes...


For more info:
http://www.arcelect.com/lightnin.htm NOTE THE USE OF THREE DEVICES!!!
http://www.lightningman.com.au/surge_technologies.html 
http://www.panamax.com/PDF/IEEE_Guide.pdf 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector 


Explains Static Electricity Buildup:
http://www.renewwisconsin.org/wind/Toolbox-Fact%20Sheets/Lightning.pdf 
http://www.atlanticscientific.com/lightning.html 

and DISSIPATION:
http://www.nottltd.com/lightning.html 



==============================================

OTA TV Antenna Grounding info contained in C-M Installation Guide:
http://manuals.solidsignal.com/AntInstallGuide.pdf 


SAT Dish Grounding References (also apply to OTA TV Antennas):
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/GB-HTML/HTML/GroundingSatelliteDishandLead-InCables~20020303.htm 
http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Installation/Grounding.htm


----------



## bourmb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There are three general types of coax surge protectors (aka Grounding Block):
> 
> 
> 1) Air Gap--relies on a spark jumping across an air gap:
> 
> Which should be inside a protective enclosure that also acts as a high current conductor when overwhelmed by a high voltage event:
> https://www.tselectronic.com/pico/grb_hrl.html
> 
> I've yet to see any specs on breakdown voltage (probably quite high), reaction time (probably quite slow) and current capability vs time to destruct....but they are supposed to "meet code"....
> 
> 
> 2) Gas Tube (e.g Holland GRB-AR) with internal spark gap:
> 
> Very careful construction means the breakdown characteristics can be controlled inside the gas filled tube.
> 
> Holland and Toner Cable even provide detailed specs:
> http://www.hollandelectronics.com/ca...ages/49_50.pdf
> http://www.tonercable.com/Files/Prod...II-210&212.pdf
> 
> But, since they still relies on an "air" gap, the breakdown voltage is quite high (90 volts for GRB-AR), so don't expect it to provide very much protection to attached electronics equipment. Also note the higher current ratings for the Toner Cable devices.
> 
> 
> 3) Solid State (e.g. MOV device, such as Holland SA-1F):
> http://www.hollandelectronics.com/ca...ages/49_50.pdf
> 
> Has a much lower breakdown voltage (25 volts for the SA-1F) and hence will leak off static electricity build-up and thereby prevents excessive voltages being applied to sensitive electronics equipment. But when the MOV device is overstressed, it will blow, meaning your only protection is whatever air gap was (hopefully???) intentionally designed into the device.
> 
> I've seen many coax MOV devices listed, but very few quote specs....for example, the fol:
> http://www.tonercable.com/Files/Prod...II-210&212.pdf
> 
> 
> If you check the current specs for the Holland devices, note that neither device will sustain high current conditions for more than a handful of microseconds---whereas a lightning strike will typically last for many milliseconds.....so don't think that any of these devices will provide much protection against a direct lightning spike....
> 
> 
> The best approach is to use a combination of either #1 or #2 for protection against large (but very rare) surge voltage events and and a solid state MOV type device to drain off static electricity on a daily basis.
> 
> 
> PS: If you have reception problems, carefully check to make sure that these devices are not contributing excessive loss--esp if the device has undergone one too many spikes...
> 
> 
> For more info:
> http://www.panamax.com/Literature/PDF/SAT_BROCHURE.pdf
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector



Thanks for the very helpful information. Based on your recommendations, I am going to install a GRB-AR inline with a SA-1F and have both tied to ground. Which one should be installed closer to the AV equipment? How can you tell if either device has failed due to a surge? Why wouldn't you just install a SA-2F and not the GRB-AR since the SA-2F includes a ground?


----------



## moogs69

Hi,

I know pretty much nothing about antenna's, but gleaning this topic it seems that parabolic antenna's are highly directional and therefore good for OTA reception. Can a Bell ExpressVu satellite antenna be used for OTA reception? Any advice on configuring it? Can I hook it up in tandem with an RCA dipole yagi (I think that is what it is called, it's the basic RCA CANT711 shaped like a tube, please correct me if wrong), and will that result in better reception?


Thanks very much.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moogs69* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> seems that parabolic antenna's are highly directional



Yes, this is true.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moogs69* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> and therefore good for OTA reception.



Sometimes, but not always.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moogs69* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can a Bell ExpressVu satellite antenna be used for OTA reception?



Won't be very effective at UHF frequencies and much less so at VHF. Those little dishes are very good for microwave frequencies, though.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moogs69* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Any advice on configuring it?



For OTA, you will need a parabola with a diameter of five feet minimum and possible much larger.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moogs69* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can I hook it up in tandem with an RCA dipole yagi (I think that is what it is called, it's the basic RCA CANT711 shaped like a tube, please correct me if wrong), and will that result in better reception?



I doubt it. BTW, what is your present reception like? If you are using the RCA dipole, and getting anything at all, simple using a better outdoor antenna would be better.


----------



## nybbler

Reviewing this thread I see a lot about pre-amps but not much about distribution amps. With my antenna and pre-amp connected with 25ft of RG-59, I can get all the channels I want on one TV. But when I actually have it set up to go to all TVs and the DVR, it's going to be running through a lot (>100ft) of RG-6 and more than one splitter. If this turns out not to work, is there a recommended distribution amp? Should I instead install a second pre-amp before the splitter? And how much do these very low noise amps cost anyway? The web sites tend to leave out that information, which makes me nervous.


I'm only 16 miles from the towers but terrain puts me in the violet on antennaweb for several of the channels. Nothing on VHF now but at least one of the stations (now on channel 55) will be moving there.


----------



## Andrew K

I just noticed this thread and I was wondering if anyone could help me with my question. I'm trying to get a few weak digital signals that my TV can't lock onto. Channels 20 and 41.


I'm currently using a silver sensor with a pre-amplifier. I've tried moving this thing up, down, right, left, 360 degrees, out a window in the direction of the transmitter, and whatever. But I haven't successfully locked on to the low signal.


An outdoor antenna is out of the question for me, so I was wondering if anyone could tell me from experience what they think is the best indoor antenna setup.


----------



## nybbler

Antennaweb.org for Akron doesn't show a channel 20 or 41. Reception might not be feasible for some reason.


----------



## Andrew K




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Antennaweb.org for Akron doesn't show a channel 20 or 41. Reception might not be feasible for some reason.



WFMJ-DT 20 and WKBN-DT 41 from Youngstown...


Both are weak, but can be received by analog.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Andrew K* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Both are weak, but can be received by analog.



Both are using less power for digital than analog, and their digital antenna are a little lower on the tower than the analog. If you can see a very snowy picture with analog, you probably don't have good enough signal-to-noise ratio for digital to work.


And, at 45 (or so) miles from the towers, an indoor antenna just isn't going to work very well.


----------



## moogs69

Thanks for the advice.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> For OTA, you will need a parabola with a diameter of five feet minimum and possible much larger.



Unfortunately, that will not be possible, as I live in an apartment building.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> BTW, what is your present reception like? If you are using the RCA dipole, and getting anything at all, simple using a better outdoor antenna would be better.



The ATSC is not too bad when it is out on the balcony, I'm on the 19th floor and have a clear view of the transmission towers for the 2 ATSC channels I get, the NTSC is not as good. In both cases I often have to move it, which is somewhat annoying. That is why I was thinking of hooking it up in tandem with another antenna, and living in an apartment my options are limited.


----------



## ddingle

I was thinking the other day that I have probably installed a thousand or more television antennas over the last 25 years or so.

It is still interesting to continue to gain insight in the field.

I just got back from Naples,Florida. I found myself checking some outdoor satellite and tv antenna connections on the roof of a 14 story condo directly on the Gulf of Mexico. We had initially installed the dish and 4 bay bowtie,but after the hurricanes last year I had a local guy repair the "Gainmaster" dish. As you might imagine warm salty breezes consistently blow in on the rooftop antenna site.

Corrosion potential on all connectors is at an extremely high level,so it is a good test bed for prevention techniques.

The local guy reused our snap and seal connectors,but do not use the "waterproofing" nut with a rubber seal that we had put on originally. Unfortunately he did not tighten the connections on the lnbs very well either.

The end result was internal corrosion to the point of a dead short on the Sat C lnb connector. I cleaned it with "Cramolin" a contact cleaner and for the first time I have observed "bubbles" of cleaning action as the agent interacted with the corrosion. The satellite is fine now

The UHF 4 bay antenna actually has survived a couple of pretty big Hurricanes! The 75 to 300 ohm balun seemed in good condition until I pulled off the boot to check the snap an seal connection. It looked like the bottom of an old boat! Barnacles of corrosion on the outside of the connector. It would seem the boot amplified the corrosion effects. Once inside the boot it sits there and builds up. It would probably make sense not to use a boot under most circumstances when using snap and seals or the like.

The "waterproofing" nut was intact. When I inspected the inside of the connector, it was basically spotless!! The combination of the nut and the general seal of the back of the snap and seal had really kept out the salt. Corrosion was only superficial on the outside of the connector. So it looks like the Snap and Seal with the additional "nut"seal would be highly recommended in any outdoor reception installation and "boots" on baluns may do more harm than good. Hope this helps. Dallas


----------



## ddingle

Here are some pictures of the snap and seal connectors and waterproofing seal. Rather small,but hopefully viewable.


----------



## usnret

Need some advise. We reside in Edinburg, ND. We are approx. 35 miles S of the Canadian border. We would like to receive CBC Manitoba via OTA. Any suggestions as to what type of antenna system might work?? No real mountains between us and the border (no silo's either), so wondering if it would be possible. Thank you.


----------



## rcodey




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddingle* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was thinking the other day that I have probably installed a thousand or more television antennas over the last 25 years or so.
> 
> It is still interesting to continue to gain insight in the field.
> 
> I just got back from Naples,Florida. I found myself checking some outdoor satellite and tv antenna connections on the roof of a 14 story condo directly on the Gulf of Mexico.



Sounds like you were at Pelican Bay.


----------



## PinkSplice




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PinkSplice* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I currently have a Radio Shack VU-190XR that I'm testing. This monster seems to have only fractionally better performance on VHF than my CM 4228's. No pre-amps can be used in my location, as I am 3 miles from the Shrewsbury antenna farm. Tropo ducting is supposed to be good tonight, and I'm hoping for decent reception. If the -190 doesn't deliver (it's been up for two months), it's history, as it is a monster (13 ft boom). Where should I list it for sale? It's too big to ship economically anywhere outside of the local area. Somebody in a rural area will probably appreciate it, and I have a 7778 VHF/UHF pre-amp to go with it.



Forget it. I stripped it of useful hardware, and my enterprising lawn guy got it for scrap. I replaced it with my third 4228. I now have *three* 4228's on my roof, each feeding a single set. The amp is going to E-Bay.


----------



## ddingle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rcodey* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sounds like you were at Pelican Bay.



Yes! Our client just bought one of the new condos next door at "Aqua". He currently resides on the top floor of the one of the Pelican Lakes buildings next door.

His new Home Theater is going to be(hopefully) pretty darn cool.

It is a couple of years to completion though


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *usnret* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Need some advise. We reside in Edinburg, ND. We are approx. 35 miles S of the Canadian border. We would like to receive CBC Manitoba via OTA. Any suggestions as to what type of antenna system might work?? No real mountains between us and the border (no silo's either), so wondering if it would be possible. Thank you.



Possible, yes; easy, no. First you need to know the channels and locations.


I use http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp 

For your location I used 48.497, -97.862


The data shows CBWT (analog) on channel 27, 1000 KW at 1066' height, 89 miles away at 10 degrees azimuth.


KCPM is also on channel 27 digital, 18 KW at 314' height, 52 miles away at azimuth 134 degrees.


The two channel 27s will interfere with each other. If you really wanted to try it, you'd need a tower (or silo), and a large UHF antenna with a preamp. There is a way to add two Channel Master 4228 antennas together to get slightly more signal, but the combination can also null out the interfering signal from another direction. Here's how to do it: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/16bay.html 

The side by side combination is configured to reduce provide a null for you on channel 27 in the proper direction to eliminate KCPM!


It would be a bit easier to get CKY (CTV) on channel 46, at 984' high, 81 miles away at 22 degrees azimuth.


----------



## nybbler

My antenna is a Terk HDTVo. From the antenna to the ground block is 17', followed by about 18-20' in the house. From there it splits two ways into existing wiring, one back 17' to a TV and the other an unknown distance (but probably about 25') to the main distribution point, where it splits three ways again -- I could reduce this to two ways. The rest is existing wiring which I can't really measure. I believe one of the runs (probably to the upstairs) must split at least 2:1 once more, but I don't know which one. And at one of the TVs, there's a 2:1 split for the DVR. This is all RG-6; the RG-59 was just a convenient cable to test with. Rewiring with a more sensible distribution scheme isn't really an option; I'd have to tear up too much drywall.


Antennaweb results are


* yellow - uhf WPVI-DT 6.1 ABC PHILADELPHIA PA 142° 16.0 64

* yellow - uhf KYW-DT 3.1 CBS PHILADELPHIA PA 142° 16.0 26

* red - uhf WTVE-DT 51.1 IND READING PA 319° 15.3 25

* blue - uhf WGTW-DT 27.1 TBN BURLINGTON NJ 141° 16.2 27

* blue - uhf WYBE-DT 34.1 PBS PHILADELPHIA PA 141° 16.2 34

* violet - uhf WPHL-DT 17.1 MNT PHILADELPHIA PA 141° 16.2 54

* violet - uhf WTXF-DT 29.1 FOX PHILADELPHIA PA 138° 15.3 42

* violet - uhf WPPX-DT 61.1 i WILMINGTON DE 141° 16.2 31


These are ridiculously conservative; I get a few channels not listed, including WHYY-DT (channel 55). With the Terk's internal pre-amp off I get all except WTXF-DT and WHYY-DT. (and maybe WPPX, I don't really care about that one)


----------



## nybbler

I have, but I'm limited being in a townhouse community. I can't attach anything to the roof, and I'm stretching things (at least according to the letter of the FCC regs) by having the Terk hang out over the deck. A CM4221 or similar would likely irritate the heck out of the neighbors.


----------



## bourmb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have, but I'm limited being in a townhouse community. I can't attach anything to the roof, and I'm stretching things (at least according to the letter of the FCC regs) by having the Terk hang out over the deck. A CM4221 or similar would likely irritate the heck out of the neighbors.



I was in the process of mounting a CM4221 on the roof of our house this weekend when my wife was complaining on how ugly it looks and that it stuck out like a sore thumb. I thought it was beautiful. Being her nagging began to run into other parts of our relationship, I gave in to her like a man without any balls and remounted it in the attic. Eventhough I was loosing approximately 30% signal strength, I was pulling in all my locals at 100% as I am only 10 miles from almost all the towers.


----------



## DougRuss




> Quote:
> Being her nagging began to run into other parts of our relationship, I gave in to her like a man without any balls and remounted it in the attic


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bourmb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the very helpful information. Based on your recommendations, I am going to install a GRB-AR inline with a SA-1F and have both tied to ground. Which one should be installed closer to the AV equipment? How can you tell if either device has failed due to a surge? Why wouldn't you just install a SA-2F and not the GRB-AR since the SA-2F includes a ground?



The SA-2F (a Littelfuse SiDACtor and other similar MOV devices) are solid state devices that gradually self-destruct as they provide protection, esp. when several devices are paralled to increase the current rating--which means that it is difficult to tell how much "life" is left in the device. A simple GO-NOGO test would be to apply greater than 25 volts via a current limiting resistor and verify that it clamps the voltage like a zener diode.


The solid state SiDACtor and MOV devices are not intended to replace the NEC Code mandated high current spark gap devices. I would place the SiDACtor or MOV type device close to the equipment to be protected, which ensures maximum attenuation of overvoltage signals via the interconnecting coax from the spark gap device.


The spark gap device must be installed in accordance with NEC Code requirements, which ensures that lightning and static buildup has the SHORTEST possible (hopefullly OUTDOOR) route to ground. You don't want a lighting bolt running through your house or garage on it's way to a "more convenient" grounding point.


Other than checking for an obvious short and melted metal, I don't think there is any simple way to test how well a spark gap device is working--unless you have experience working with tubes and their high voltage power supplies, you probably don't want to do a test to verify the high voltage breakdown voltage.....


----------



## bourmb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The SA-2F (a Littelfuse SiDACtor and other similar MOV devices) are solid state devices that gradually self-destruct as they provide protection, esp. when several devices are paralled to increase the current rating--which means that it is difficult to tell how much "life" is left in the device. A simple GO-NOGO test would be to apply greater than 25 volts via a current limiting resistor and verify that it clamps the voltage like a zener diode.
> 
> 
> The solid state SiDACtor and MOV devices are not intended to replace the NEC Code mandated high current spark gap devices. I would place the SiDACtor or MOV type device close to the equipment to be protected, which ensures maximum attenuation of overvoltage signals via the interconnecting coax from the spark gap device.
> 
> 
> The spark gap device must be installed in accordance with NEC Code requirements, which ensures that lightning and static buildup has the SHORTEST possible (hopefullly OUTDOOR) route to ground. You don't want a lighting bolt running through your house or garage on it's way to a "more convenient" grounding point.
> 
> 
> Other than checking for an obvious short and melted metal, I don't think there is any simple way to test how well a spark gap device is working--unless you have experience working with tubes and their high voltage power supplies, you probably don't want to do a test to verify the high voltage breakdown voltage.....



Thanks for the advice, but no need now since my wife took control of the situation (see above).


----------



## ChocoLab

Hi, I've surfed and surfed but haven't really found any info on this...


I need a hi-band VHF antenna, and the two best candidates are the Antennacraft Y10-7-13 and the Winegard YA1713. The two are similar, and I can't decide which would be best.


The Winegard is a little shorter and has fewer elements.


The Antennacraft is longer, has more elements, and has a folded dipole, which I really prefer.


I know most people might say Winegard right off the bat, but I think that's mainly because they know Antennacraft makes Radio Shack's antennas and they didn't have a good experience with them. But I think Antennacraft has some good designs that they don't make available to RS -- and frankly I like my RS Fm antenna better than the Winegard 6065 I purchased. The Winegard is kind of flimsy and despite being a "better" antenna, it really doesn't work much if any better than the cheaper and smaller Antennacraft-made RS antenna.


If anyone has any experience with these two antennas, I'd really appreciate hearing about it.


----------



## Bruce/Fl

Hi All,


Been awhile since I posted here, but after finding out that D* won't give me waivers for ABC and CBS HD, I went out and bought a mast, rotor, amp/preamp, etc. I already have the antenna.


I'm ready to put it up.


The spot I picked out is going to a few feet in the ground up past the peak of my house. The mast will be mounted to the outside wall with standoffs, from the bottom up to the point where the peak of the house is. My main question is, how much higher can I go above the roofline without guy wires being needed (last spot the mast will be secured is a few inches below the roofline) I am kind of in a valley here in Niceville, so height will probably be real important.


Here are the particulars.


I have four 10 foot sections of 16 guage mast, 1 1/2 inch diameter.


Two of the sections from the ground are almost level with the peak of the house, so, once I sink a few feet of it in the ground with concrete, it will be a few feet below the peak, add another section, it will be roughly 7-8 feet above the roofline, then add a little for the rotor and antenna assembly. I would think this would be ok as is, but would like any info you all might want to add.


Now I assume adding in the last ten foot section (making it 17-18 foot above the peak of the house) would be too wobbly if unsecured, or would it? Any thoughts? Could I go even higher, if secured? What are my limitations here?


Thanks for any info you can give me.


----------



## Davinleeds

Bruce/FL, keep in mind thats it's your local station that wont give you the wavier and it's making you spend your money to set up an antenna. D* will send you a signal if THEY (your station) approve the wavier. Usually HD OTA is better. These posters know their stuff.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bruce/Fl* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> 
> The spot I picked out is going to a few feet in the ground up past the peak of my house. The mast will be mounted to the outside wall with standoffs, from the bottom up to the point where the peak of the house is. My main question is, how much higher can I go above the roofline without guy wires being needed (last spot the mast will be secured is a few inches below the roofline) I am kind of in a valley here in Niceville, so height will probably be real important.
> 
> 
> .



This is called a ground mount and is one of the most sturdy installations. I don't see any advantage of sinking the bottom into the ground. Just use a footer of some sort i.e. large flat rock or cement sidewalk tread.


I would recommend using a telescoping mast. I used a 30 footer and installed it upside down so the stiffest part is at the top. This also allows you to raise/lower the antenna very easily for fine tuning the signal.


There's an antenna installation guide at CM's website. I think it says 10 feet above roofline without need for guying with this type of mount. This is a rough estimate and obviously depends on your particulars, primarily how big of an antenna you put up.


I've had my rig up for a couple of years now and it's about 8 feet above roofline without problems. I could go higher but it actually is in the "sweet spot" for signal as is.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ChocoLab* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi, I've surfed and surfed but haven't really found any info on this...
> 
> 
> I need a hi-band VHF antenna, and the two best candidates are the Antennacraft Y10-7-13 and the Winegard YA1713. The two are similar, and I can't decide which would be best.
> 
> 
> The Winegard is a little shorter and has fewer elements.
> 
> 
> The Antennacraft is longer, has more elements, and has a folded dipole, which I really prefer.
> 
> 
> I know most people might say Winegard right off the bat, but I think that's mainly because they know Antennacraft makes Radio Shack's antennas and they didn't have a good experience with them. But I think Antennacraft has some good designs that they don't make available to RS -- and frankly I like my RS Fm antenna better than the Winegard 6065 I purchased. The Winegard is kind of flimsy and despite being a "better" antenna, it really doesn't work much if any better than the cheaper and smaller Antennacraft-made RS antenna.
> 
> 
> If anyone has any experience with these two antennas, I'd really appreciate hearing about it.



I've used both and found them to be nearly equal in performance.The Antennacraft a slight edge at my particular location on certain channels.


If you like the folded-dipole design,I have some Funke PSP.1922's available.They are incrementally better than the above models(13ft length/higher gain/better front/back)).I use two in a horizontal stack with modified booms.They seem to be holding up well to the elements.Here's a pic of one installed(top antenna),courtesy of forum member cpcat.Send me a pm if interested.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...chmentid=35151 

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...TowerAntennas/


----------



## snomis79

This is my info from antennaweb:


yellow - uhf WHRO-DT 15.1 PBS HAMPTON-NORFOLK VA 261° 11.9 16

yellow - uhf WTVZ-DT 33.1 MNT NORFOLK VA 261° 11.9 38

yellow - uhf WVEC-DT 13.1 ABC HAMPTON VA 261° 9.8 41

yellow - uhf WPXV-DT 49.1 i NORFOLK VA 261° 11.9 46

yellow - uhf WTKR-DT 3.1 CBS NORFOLK VA 261° 11.9 40

red - uhf WGNT-DT 27.1 CW PORTSMOUTH VA 258° 9.7 50

red - uhf WAVY-DT 10.1 NBC PORTSMOUTH VA 266° 12.1 31

red - uhf WVBT-DT 43.1 FOX VIRGINIA BEACH VA 266° 12.1 29



We live in an apartment building on the first floor. It has to be an indoor antenna. We already have the following antenna from radio shack we're using on our old non-HD tv: Antenna @ Radio Shack 


Is that going to be enough? I've been looking at the Zenith/Philips everybody has, which looks like it would get us the same channels.


Opinions?


----------



## DougRuss












Now that would get a *HOA* Riled up !!
















*Cpcat......* Sweet set-up !!


----------



## nybbler

What IS that? I'm guessing the bottom two are ganged VHF yagis, though the extra unconnected dipole looks odd. But why are the UHF yagis on top tripled and at different angles?


Hmm. I could perfectly legally mount such a setup attached to my deck. Then the association would BEG for a simple CM4221 extending off of it .


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What IS that? .



Televes DAT 75's on top (uhf) at 57 in. spacing.


Antennacraft Y10 7-13's on bottom (high band vhf) at 83 in. spacing.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *snomis79* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This is my info from antennaweb:
> 
> 
> yellow - uhf WHRO-DT 15.1 PBS HAMPTON-NORFOLK VA 261° 11.9 16
> 
> yellow - uhf WTVZ-DT 33.1 MNT NORFOLK VA 261° 11.9 38
> 
> yellow - uhf WVEC-DT 13.1 ABC HAMPTON VA 261° 9.8 41
> 
> yellow - uhf WPXV-DT 49.1 i NORFOLK VA 261° 11.9 46
> 
> yellow - uhf WTKR-DT 3.1 CBS NORFOLK VA 261° 11.9 40
> 
> red - uhf WGNT-DT 27.1 CW PORTSMOUTH VA 258° 9.7 50
> 
> red - uhf WAVY-DT 10.1 NBC PORTSMOUTH VA 266° 12.1 31
> 
> red - uhf WVBT-DT 43.1 FOX VIRGINIA BEACH VA 266° 12.1 29
> 
> 
> 
> We live in an apartment building on the first floor. It has to be an indoor antenna. We already have the following antenna from radio shack we're using on our old non-HD tv: Antenna @ Radio Shack
> 
> 
> Is that going to be enough? I've been looking at the Zenith/Philips everybody has, which looks like it would get us the same channels.
> 
> 
> Opinions?



If you're getting good reception on the analog channels with the RS model, the chances are good that you'll have acceptable results with it on the digitals. Have you got a digital tuner yet?


As for the Silver Sensor, it's probably the best indoor, set-top antenna made. Since your stations are basically all in the same direction, and they're all UHF (which is only what the SS will receive), it should be as good a choice as any, if not better. Just find the right (sweet) spot for it and you should never even have to touch it or turn it. If you can find one at a Circuit City near you, you can always return it easily enough should it not do the job.


----------



## chris83

Here are my results from Antenna Web:


Red-UHF KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MPLS MN 324° 34.8 Miles 35

Red-UHF WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MPLS MN 325° 34.2 Miles 21

Red-UHF WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MPLS MN 324° 34.8 Miles 32

Red-UHF KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MPLS MN 325° 34.2 Miles 26

Red-UHF KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MPLS MN 324° 34.8 Miles 44

Red-UHF KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC MPLS MN 324° 34.8 Miles 50

Red-UHF KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS MPLS MN 325° 34.2 Miles 34

Red-UHF KTCI-DT 17.1 PBS MPLS MN 325° 34.2 Miles 16

Blue-UHF WUCW-DT 23.1 CW MPLS MN 324° 34.8 Miles 22


They suggested a "Medium Directional rooftop with pre-amp"


I live in a pretty heavily wooded area. All things being equal, I'd prefer to try a good *INDOOR* antenna first. I currently just have a little Jensen indoor, similar to the TV910. It does an "okay" job, but there's frequently a lot of breakup. I have it hooked into my DirecTV H20, and since I have "locals" thru DTV, I just need an antenna to pull in the digital signals that AREN'T part of the locals package: PBS, CW are a couple of those I need the digital signal help with. I already get the "Majors" (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX) digitally thru DTV.


Any advice would be greatly appreciated. If "outdoor" is the way to go, that's fine too.


Thanks.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> the computer simulations show the dat75 to match up pretty closely to the 91xg
> 
> 
> .



I keep wanting to get a couple 91xg's and stack them to compare but I've not done it as of yet. I've not seen a report of the 91xg stacked yet either. Forum member MaxHD uses Funke 4591's and thinks they are a little better than the DAT 75's and the xg is basically a clone of the 4591.


----------



## Cornhustler

Does anyone have any ideas on how to mount a Channel Master 9521A rotor to a Rohn 25G accessory shelf (AS25G)? It's to be mounted inside a 25AG4 top section that includes a thrust bearing. I know the thrust bearing is not absolutely necessary but I have it and I want to use it. I had a bracket built by a machine shop but I'm not happy with the results. The rotor wouldn't turn like it used to since I can't get it lined up perfectly with the thrust bearing. I considered using a heavier duty ham rotor but apparently none of them are capable of using a remote with automatic presets like the Channel Master controller. I've attached a photo of the old bracket. It was basically a pipe welded onto a flat plate which was attached to the accessory shelf. I tried loosening the bolts in the thrust bearing but it still had problems. Any suggestions are welcome.


----------



## Davinleeds




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> see pic.
> 
> 
> not much of a box and lots of pieces to put together. Was stunned when I received it.
> 
> 
> my first reaction was..."you got to be kidding me."
> 
> 
> The 91xg works great though...nice improvement over the hd8200P and the cm 4228 uhf. Plus it receives vhf.



You mentioned it handles multipath better than the CM4228- still the same opion?


----------



## Davinleeds




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> the hd8200p and 91xg both tame multipath nicely.
> 
> 
> I have trees back and both sides (see pic) and I had stable signal with the hd8200p and 91xg. The cm 4228 did not process multipath as well and the signal was jumping around.
> 
> 
> The bowties all tend to process multipath the same (because of their design). The hd8200p and 91xg type antennas are more directional with more front to back ratio receiving vere little signal from the back...thats a good thing if you have a hill or trees behind you.
> 
> 
> notice I said tame multipath...it does not get rid of it in all cases.
> 
> 
> I could not use bowties in my area because of the local geography.



But how will it handle it if the towers are on the other side of many hills?


----------



## Davinleeds




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Good question.
> 
> 
> Hills block uhf signal. Luckily my problems are to my back and sides which are alot better than issues in front of the antenna.
> 
> 
> All you can do is try.
> 
> 
> The 91xg is very directional which is a plus when you attempt to receive signal.
> 
> 
> the antenna supposedly also has an adjustment on the mounting bracket so you can angle the antenna slightly to the horizon which can help.
> 
> 
> I did not play with that adjustment ...mine is set up horizontally.



I had the tilt on my 4228 on a 10' pole-not good for my rotor. Lowered it to 5 and lost two channels. I think with the XG and the newer STB I may get some stability. Thanks.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cornhustler* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any ideas on how to mount a Channel Master 9521A rotor to a Rohn 25G accessory shelf (AS25G)? It's to be mounted inside a 25AG4 top section that includes a thrust bearing. I know the thrust bearing is not absolutely necessary but I have it and I want to use it. I had a bracket built by a machine shop but I'm not happy with the results. The rotor wouldn't turn like it used to since I can't get it lined up perfectly with the thrust bearing. I considered using a heavier duty ham rotor but apparently none of them are capable of using a remote with automatic presets like the Channel Master controller. I've attached a photo of the old bracket. It was basically a pipe welded onto a flat plate which was attached to the accessory shelf. I tried loosening the bolts in the thrust bearing but it still had problems. Any suggestions are welcome.



Hello Cornhustler!


The CM rotor will not work very well as it turns the masting in a "wobble" pattern as you've observed.I think the least wobble is with 1-3/8 O.D material.If you are determined to have a stiff bearing-supported mast you can get a TB-105 rotor support mast bearing from Stark's and mount it on the top tower plate using an L-shaped bracket..ie a short piece of 3" angle iron should do it.


What exact bearing are you using?


----------



## newsposter

someone wrote to me saying:


Old style antennas weren't designed for digital signals. A new one that will do the job can be found for less than $100



I'm not an antenna expert but I thought antennas aren't "designed" for digital today and all the hype is marketing BS and that they all are fine for analog or digital?


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> someone wrote to me saying:
> 
> 
> Old style antennas weren't designed for digital signals. A new one that will do the job can be found for less than $100
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not an antenna expert but I thought antennas aren't "designed" for digital today and all the hype is marketing BS and that they all are fine for analog or digital?



Analog and digital stations use the same UHF and VHF frequencies. There is no difference between an analog antenna and a digital antenna. The only difference seems to be in PR hype and price! What a scam.............


----------



## Cornhustler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello Cornhustler!
> 
> 
> The CM rotor will not work very well as it turns the masting in a "wobble" pattern as you've observed.I think the least wobble is with 1-3/8 O.D material.If you are determined to have a stiff bearing-supported mast you can get a TB-105 rotor support mast bearing from Stark's and mount it on the top tower plate using an L-shaped bracket..ie a short piece of 3" angle iron should do it.
> 
> 
> What exact bearing are you using?



I'm using a Rohn TB-3 thrust bearing mounted in the top section of the tower. I already have a TB-105 I'm not using which I ordered from Stark a few years ago so I will give it a shot. Thanks for the advice, I'll see what I can come up with.


----------



## PinkSplice




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chris83* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here are my results from Antenna Web:
> 
> 
> Red-UHF KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MPLS MN 324° 34.8 Miles 35
> 
> Red-UHF WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MPLS MN 325° 34.2 Miles 21
> 
> Red-UHF WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MPLS MN 324° 34.8 Miles 32
> 
> Red-UHF KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MPLS MN 325° 34.2 Miles 26
> 
> Red-UHF KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MPLS MN 324° 34.8 Miles 44
> 
> Red-UHF KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC MPLS MN 324° 34.8 Miles 50
> 
> Red-UHF KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS MPLS MN 325° 34.2 Miles 34
> 
> Red-UHF KTCI-DT 17.1 PBS MPLS MN 325° 34.2 Miles 16
> 
> Blue-UHF WUCW-DT 23.1 CW MPLS MN 324° 34.8 Miles 22
> 
> 
> They suggested a "Medium Directional rooftop with pre-amp"
> 
> 
> I live in a pretty heavily wooded area. All things being equal, I'd prefer to try a good *INDOOR* antenna first. I currently just have a little Jensen indoor, similar to the TV910. It does an "okay" job, but there's frequently a lot of breakup. I have it hooked into my DirecTV H20, and since I have "locals" thru DTV, I just need an antenna to pull in the digital signals that AREN'T part of the locals package: PBS, CW are a couple of those I need the digital signal help with. I already get the "Majors" (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX) digitally thru DTV.
> 
> 
> Any advice would be greatly appreciated. If "outdoor" is the way to go, that's fine too.
> 
> 
> Thanks.



At well over fifty klicks out, and with woods all around, an outdoor antenna is your best option. Channel Master's 4228 may be your best antenna.


----------



## ctdish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cornhustler* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any ideas on how to mount a Channel Master 9521A rotor to a Rohn 25G accessory shelf (AS25G)? It's to be mounted inside a 25AG4 top section that includes a thrust bearing. I tried loosening the bolts in the thrust bearing but it still had problems. Any suggestions are welcome.



If you mount the rotator lower in the tower, the longer mast between the rotator and bearing will flex fairly easily allowing the rotator to turn freely.

John


----------



## fmcomputer

I have a Samsung DLP system with a OTA tuner using a UHF antenna installed on my roof. It gets great reception local HD. When I hookup the antenna to the OTA on a E* VIP622 I can not lock on to all scanned stations that the Samsung turner receives. Whats the deal..

*E sent second box. Same thing. Are the OTA tuners on the VIP622 not as good as my Samsung tuner.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chris83* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here are my results from Antenna Web:
> 
> 
> Red-UHF KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MPLS MN 324° 34.8 Miles 35
> 
> Red-UHF WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MPLS MN 325° 34.2 Miles 21
> 
> Red-UHF WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MPLS MN 324° 34.8 Miles 32
> 
> Red-UHF KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MPLS MN 325° 34.2 Miles 26
> 
> Red-UHF KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MPLS MN 324° 34.8 Miles 44
> 
> Red-UHF KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC MPLS MN 324° 34.8 Miles 50
> 
> Red-UHF KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS MPLS MN 325° 34.2 Miles 34
> 
> Red-UHF KTCI-DT 17.1 PBS MPLS MN 325° 34.2 Miles 16
> 
> Blue-UHF WUCW-DT 23.1 CW MPLS MN 324° 34.8 Miles 22
> 
> 
> They suggested a "Medium Directional rooftop with pre-amp"
> 
> 
> I live in a pretty heavily wooded area. All things being equal, I'd prefer to try a good *INDOOR* antenna first. I currently just have a little Jensen indoor, similar to the TV910. It does an "okay" job, but there's frequently a lot of breakup.



All of your stations are currently broadcasting (digitally) on UHF, but looking up the FCC information, KMSP 9 and KARE 11 will switch their digital signal back to VHF 9 & 11 when the analog shutdown occurs in February, 2009. So if you are looking for an antenna setup that will still work then, you need to get both UHF and upper VHF (7 to 13).


The Channel Master 4228 8 Bay bowtie would do the job & work fine with the upper VHF stations in 2009, but it is a large and heavy outdoor long range antenna which requires a very sturdy mount. If you are getting the stations with breakups with a small indoor loop antenna, that suggests a smaller medium range indoor or attic setup is very likely do the job. Another option is the CM 4221 4 Bay bowtie UHF antenna which is smaller & lighter and I expect it will get the upper VHF stations in 2009. The cm4221 can go in the attic if that works Other suggestions are the AntennasDirect DB-2 two bay bowtie mounted either inside or outside or take a shot on a Zenith Silver Sensor mounted with a clear view in the directions of the broadcast towers. The Silver Sensor will outperform that Jensen UHF loop antenna you have. You could always add a modest size upper VHF antenna in 2009 if the UHF antenna proves not to be reliable enough.


----------



## bourmb

Does the 4228 have a narrower bandpath range than the 4221? I have the 4221 in the attic and it pulls in every local channel perfectly along with ABC and FOX from Springfield (note all that are highlighted BOLD). I am wondering though, if I could pull in more channels and not loose the ones I already have if I had the 4228. Attic mount is only option, too.


yellow - uhf WMBD 31 CBS PEORIA IL 234° 6.9 31

* yellow - uhf *WMBD*-DT 30.1 CBS PEORIA IL 233° 6.9 30

yellow - uhf WEEK 25 NBC PEORIA IL 233° 7.5 25

* yellow - uhf *WEEK*-DT 25.1 NBC PEORIA IL 233° 7.5 57

yellow - uhf WTVP 47 PBS PEORIA IL 238° 8.5 47

* yellow - uhf *WTVP*-DT 47.1 PBS PEORIA IL 238° 8.5 46

yellow - uhf WYZZ 43 FOX BLOOMINGTON IL 105° 13.8 43

* yellow - uhf *WYZZ*-DT 43.1 FOX BLOOMINGTON IL 105° 13.8 28

yellow - uhf WHOI 19 ABC PEORIA IL 251° 8.6 19

* yellow - uhf *WHOI*-DT 19.1 ABC CREVE COEUR IL 251° 8.6 40

yellow - uhf WAOE 59 MNT PEORIA IL 307° 3.3 59

* yellow - uhf *WAOE*-DT 39.1 MNT PEORIA IL 215° 4.7 39

red - uhf W50DD 50 TBN PEORIA IL 217° 11.8 50

blue - uhf W51CT 51 TBN BLOOMINGTON IL 123° 27.3 51

blue - uhf *WRSP* 55 FOX SPRINGFIELD IL 181° 62.0 55

blue - uhf WBUI 23 CW DECATUR IL 149° 56.6 23

blue - uhf WAND 17 NBC DECATUR IL 149° 60.4 17

blue - uhf WWTO 35 TBN LASALLE IL 33° 48.0 35

violet - uhf *WICS* 20 ABC SPRINGFIELD IL 182° 61.6 20

violet - vhf WILL 12 PBS URBANA IL 139° 60.6 12

violet - vhf WCIA 3 CBS CHAMPAIGN IL 129° 65.9 3


----------



## PinkSplice




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bourmb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does the 4228 have a narrower bandpath range than the 4221? I have the 4221 in the attic and it pulls in every local channel perfectly along with ABC and FOX from Springfield (note all that are highlighted BOLD). I am wondering though, if I could pull in more channels and not loose the ones I already have if I had the 4228. Attic mount is only option, too.
> 
> 
> yellow - uhf WMBD 31 CBS PEORIA IL 234° 6.9 31
> 
> * yellow - uhf *WMBD*-DT 30.1 CBS PEORIA IL 233° 6.9 30
> 
> yellow - uhf WEEK 25 NBC PEORIA IL 233° 7.5 25
> 
> * yellow - uhf *WEEK*-DT 25.1 NBC PEORIA IL 233° 7.5 57
> 
> yellow - uhf WTVP 47 PBS PEORIA IL 238° 8.5 47
> 
> * yellow - uhf *WTVP*-DT 47.1 PBS PEORIA IL 238° 8.5 46
> 
> yellow - uhf WYZZ 43 FOX BLOOMINGTON IL 105° 13.8 43
> 
> * yellow - uhf *WYZZ*-DT 43.1 FOX BLOOMINGTON IL 105° 13.8 28
> 
> yellow - uhf WHOI 19 ABC PEORIA IL 251° 8.6 19
> 
> * yellow - uhf *WHOI*-DT 19.1 ABC CREVE COEUR IL 251° 8.6 40
> 
> yellow - uhf WAOE 59 MNT PEORIA IL 307° 3.3 59
> 
> * yellow - uhf *WAOE*-DT 39.1 MNT PEORIA IL 215° 4.7 39
> 
> red - uhf W50DD 50 TBN PEORIA IL 217° 11.8 50
> 
> blue - uhf W51CT 51 TBN BLOOMINGTON IL 123° 27.3 51
> 
> blue - uhf *WRSP* 55 FOX SPRINGFIELD IL 181° 62.0 55
> 
> blue - uhf WBUI 23 CW DECATUR IL 149° 56.6 23
> 
> blue - uhf WAND 17 NBC DECATUR IL 149° 60.4 17
> 
> blue - uhf WWTO 35 TBN LASALLE IL 33° 48.0 35
> 
> violet - uhf *WICS* 20 ABC SPRINGFIELD IL 182° 61.6 20
> 
> violet - vhf WILL 12 PBS URBANA IL 139° 60.6 12
> 
> violet - vhf WCIA 3 CBS CHAMPAIGN IL 129° 65.9 3



http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## texasbrit

chris83: the CM4221 and the DB-2 are very poor on VHF-hi. You need the CM4228 or a two-antenna setup to handle the move back to VHF-hi of 9.1 and 11.1. The CM4228 will go in most attics and it has the advantage of being easy to aim in an attic, unlike the large VHF/UHF combination antennas which need several feet of attic space to rotate in.


----------



## RoninNOLA

Novice here.


I have Charter cable in Mandeville, LA which doesn't carry FOX on HD. On the advice of a co-worker, I purchased a $40 Phillips Indoor / Outdoor HDTV antenna from Wal-Mart about three weeks ago.


Hooked it up, set it in my window (indoors) and on first try was able to get a bunch of channels in HD (including FOX, ABC, UPN, PBS). Occasionally, the picture would tile or freeze but I would come back if I relocated the antenna.


I noticed that a couple of the channels dropped off (PBS) but I mainly wanted FOX to catch the NFL and FOX was still working fine.


Since about Wednesday this week, I've been unable to catch any HD channels. Thought may something went wrong with the pre-amp so I returned the antenna and got a new one but still having the same problems. I've attempted to re-memorize the channels but I only pick up analog (and most channels are fuzzy). All of the digital channels indicate "no signal or off-air". What's off is that when the TV is scanning and memorizing the digital channels, it appears to be adding the digital channels but they don't tune in after the memorization process is completed.


Since everything worked so well at first hook-up and I am now unable to tune any digitial channels, I'm starting to wonder if there is something wrong with the tuner on my TV (Mitsubishi DLP).


I did a check on antennaweb and all of the DT channels in my area are in the violet range for antenna type (with the exception of WUPL-DT, MNT) which is blue. So they do recommend a large-directional w/pre-amp for my location.


Anyone have any words of wisdom? Should I get my digital tuner checked, or did I maybe just get lucky during those first few weeks with conditions that were very good for reception in my area. Hate to schedule a service call for the TV if it's an antenna issue and there is nothing wrong with my TV.


Thanks.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RoninNOLA* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Novice here.
> 
> 
> I have Charter cable in Mandeville, LA which doesn't carry FOX on HD. On the advice of a co-worker, I purchased a $40 Phillips Indoor / Outdoor HDTV antenna from Wal-Mart about three weeks ago.
> 
> 
> Hooked it up, set it in my window (indoors) and on first try was able to get a bunch of channels in HD (including FOX, ABC, UPN, PBS). Occasionally, the picture would tile or freeze but I would come back if I relocated the antenna.
> 
> 
> I noticed that a couple of the channels dropped off (PBS) but I mainly wanted FOX to catch the NFL and FOX was still working fine.
> 
> 
> Since about Wednesday this week, I've been unable to catch any HD channels. Thought may something went wrong with the pre-amp so I returned the antenna and got a new one but still having the same problems. I've attempted to re-memorize the channels but I only pick up analog (and most channels are fuzzy). All of the digital channels indicate "no signal or off-air". What's off is that when the TV is scanning and memorizing the digital channels, it appears to be adding the digital channels but they don't tune in after the memorization process is completed.
> 
> 
> Since everything worked so well at first hook-up and I am now unable to tune any digitial channels, I'm starting to wonder if there is something wrong with the tuner on my TV (Mitsubishi DLP).
> 
> 
> I did a check on antennaweb and all of the DT channels in my area are in the violet range for antenna type (with the exception of WUPL-DT, MNT) which is blue. So they do recommend a large-directional w/pre-amp for my location.
> 
> 
> Anyone have any words of wisdom? Should I get my digital tuner checked, or did I maybe just get lucky during those first few weeks with conditions that were very good for reception in my area. Hate to schedule a service call for the TV if it's an antenna issue and there is nothing wrong with my TV.
> 
> 
> Thanks.



Words of wisdom....sure.....get a Channelmaster 4228 antenna and put it outdoors,or maybe in an attic space 20-30ft above ground level.Also,a CM 7777 preamp may be needed.


Absolutely nothing wrong with your present equipment.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RoninNOLA* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I purchased a $40 Phillips Indoor / Outdoor HDTV antenna from Wal-Mart about three weeks ago.





> Quote:
> I did a check on antennaweb and all of the DT channels in my area are in the violet range for antenna type (with the exception of WUPL-DT, MNT) which is blue. So they do recommend a *large-directional w/pre-amp for my location.*



My guess is that your 1st attempt was a fluke(maybe a good atmospheric day







) Wisdom? Forget testing the TV at this point and concentrate on the antenna. Follow Antennaweb's advice and start with an external antenna. Preamp? Not unless your 1st test doesn't give you satisfactory results and/or your cable run is long.

....jc


----------



## RoninNOLA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Words of wisdom....sure.....get a Channelmaster 4228 antenna and put it outdoors,or maybe in an attic space 20-30ft above ground level.Also,a CM 7777 preamp may be needed.
> 
> 
> Absolutely nothing wrong with your present equipment.



Thanks.


Like I said, I realize it was a cheap antenna but what threw me off was that it not only worked great immediately upon installation but on numerous occasions over a three week period. Being unfamiliar with OTA HD it seemed odd that I could go from consistently getting everything with this antenna to getting nothing.


----------



## jtbell

Because of the all-or-nothing nature of digital reception, if you're on the borderline for a particular station, weather conditions can swing you back and forth over the line, and not just on a day-by-day basis.


I have one station in particular that I monitor as a sort of "benchmark" for atmospheric conditions. It's about 85 miles away (I have a large combination UHF/VHF antenna on the roof), and over the long term I'd say that I can receive it in the evening and at night about 60% of the time (but never during the day!). But sometimes I can get it solidly for a week, and then it doesn't show up at all during the next week. Sometimes it's two days "on" and one day "off."


I think I've read somewhere that these fluctuations can be more severe in coastal areas, maybe because of variations in atmospheric humidity.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Because of the all-or-nothing nature of digital reception, if you're on the borderline for a particular station, weather conditions can swing you back and forth over the line, and not just on a day-by-day basis.
> 
> 
> I have one station in particular that I monitor as a sort of "benchmark" for atmospheric conditions. It's about 85 miles away (I have a large combination UHF/VHF antenna on the roof), and over the long term I'd say that I can receive it in the evening and at night about 60% of the time (but never during the day!). But sometimes I can get it solidly for a week, and then it doesn't show up at all during the next week. Sometimes it's two days "on" and one day "off."
> 
> 
> I think I've read somewhere that these fluctuations can be more severe in coastal areas, maybe because of variations in atmospheric humidity.



FWIW, some interesting links to more info relating to TV reception.............

http://www.dxinfocentre.com/propagation/tr-modes.htm 
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/g...yA.html#fading 
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/g...yA.html#fringe 
http://www.geocities.com/toddemslie/UHF-TV-DX.html 


Steve


----------



## rlz2

I have been watching over-the-air HDTV in the Philadelphia area for over a year now. I had been using an old Radio Shack antenna with an 80 inch boom mounted on my roof, along with a Philips antenna amplifier which added another 12 db ($19.95 at Walmart). However, I had occasionally experienced a problem with periodic signal drops with one channel or another (the picture then freezes or disappears). I did not have this problem with more than one channel at a time, so I assumed it must be the broadcaster's problem. I am using an Accurian HDTV receiver (also purchased at Radio Shack, on sale, for $90.) Last winter, this problem of signal drop only happened on the local NBC affiliates digital broadcast. More recently, I noticed it on the ABC broadcast. When the station denied they had a problem, I began to trouble shoot. Not long after this, however, I completely lost the PBS station. The Accurian digital receiver says these kind of problems are due to the antenna or cable. I inspected the antenna closely, and was able to determine that a squirrel had used it to jump to a tree and had bent down one of the elements. Since this had happened twice (and trimming the tree was problematic) I decided to try a newer, encased antenna with no exposed elementsa Radio Shack "Outdoor High Definition TV Antenna Model 15-2185", $49.95. It has a small, built-in amplifier. I thought that this would solve all problems. I was wrong.


Giving a detailed description of my experience may be more than readers of this web site want. I can be emailed, I suppose, by those who want details. Here is a summary of where I stand now after lots of adjustments: I am currently using both of my antennas. The new antenna is mounted on the roof and the old antenna is now in my attic. The old antenna in the attic is connected to my HDTV with 50 feet of the cheapest coaxial cable I could find ($4 for 50 ft.). Incredibly, using this old antenna with the Philips amplifier still provides me with the strongest digital signal for all of the stations but one: the local PBS station. The roof top antenna provides a stronger signal only for the local PBS station. I made this discovery yesterday when I tried to watch the NFL game on Fox in HDTV. The signal from the new antenna would constantly drop off and the picture would freeze. When I connected the TV to the attic antenna, this stopped and I had great signal strength readings. Curiously, while the roof top antenna is supposed to be HD (and compatible with analog broadcasts) I have found that it does a better job on the analog broadcasts than the digital (excepting the PBS broadcast). This has all been quite an aggravation. Oh yes. The new antenna on the roof performed better in the evening. Perhaps something was interfering with it during the day time?


----------



## F355FTS

Just had my new Sammy delivered and need a OTA antenna ASAP.


Looking for a good one i can pick up at Best buy or Radio shack.


Which one do you guys recommend?


I am in omaha so my local HD antenna are only about 4 miles. But Lincoln is about 45 miles away and id like to tap into there signals also.


Thanks.


----------



## geogecko

Check out antennaweb.org , that should give you a good idea as to what type of antenna you need. For the 4 miles away, you could probably use an indoor antenna and do just fine with that. For 45 miles, you're going to probably need an outdoor, rooftop antenna to pull those in. Attic antennas would be sketchy at that distance, while some may work, it would be trial and error.


You also need to figure out if you need a unidirectional antenna, or a multi-directional. antennaweb will help with that.


----------



## Cornhustler

I recommend you stay away from Best Buy. Radio Shack may have something available but they tend to be high priced for what you get.


You are actually 70 miles from the KLKN transmitter and 65 miles from the KOLN transmitter. (check map)


I would recommend a CM 4228 mounted outdoors for those two and depending on your location a 4221 for KETV, KMTV & WOWT. Then use a splitter in reverse to splice them together. Be sure to use RG-6 cable. If you need an amplifier for KLKN and KOLN I would recommend the Winegard 8700. Not sure of your location to KPTM & KXVO but they should come in easily as well. You could probably mount the 4221 in the attic. I just helped a friend in Lincoln set up a CM 4221 and he's getting all the Omaha stations great @ 50 miles with a CM 4221 mounted outdoors. It took him two days to get it after ordering it from Warren Elec. in Moline. http://www.warrenelectronics.com/ 

Stark Elec. and Solid Signal are also reputable but further away.


Huskers are in HD Saturday so if that's why you're in a hurry something simple should suffice in the short term to get KETV.


Post this question at the Omaha/Lincoln section and you'll get more answers.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4&page=1&pp=30 


I see you beat me to it.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rlz2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have been watching over-the-air HDTV in the Philadelphia area for over a year now. I had been using an old Radio Shack antenna with an 80 inch boom mounted on my roof, along with a Philips antenna amplifier which added another 12 db. However, I had occasionally experienced a problem with periodic signal drops with one channel or another (the picture then freezes or disappears).



You are probably experiencing overload of the preamp. I'd put the 80" antenna back up on the roof and completely eliminate the amplifier.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *F355FTS* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am in Omaha so my local HD antenna are only about 4 miles. But Lincoln is about 45 miles away and id like to tap into their signals also.
> 
> 
> Thanks.



An amplifier is extremely likely to be overloaded by the stations 4 miles away. To get Lincoln, you'll need some height, a high gain antenna, and a rotator. The Channel Master UHF only 4228 antenna is a good place to start.


----------



## Cornhustler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> An amplifier is extremely likely to be overloaded by the stations 4 miles away. To get Lincoln, you'll need some height, a high gain antenna, and a rotator. The Channel Master UHF only 4228 antenna is a good place to start.



True, but the AP-8700 is one of the few amplifiers that is designed to handle plenty of signal without overloading. (see chart) http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/Chart29.pdf but even then you could have problems. Start simple and go from there. Their HDP-269 can handle even more signal without overloading but it gives up a little gain. I know there are people from the Gretna and LaVista areas getting the stations west of Lincoln so hopefully you can too.


----------



## rlz2

When I first put the 80 inch antenna on the roof, I could get all the Philadelphia area digital broadcasts but the PBS station (whyy). It was a bit weak, and I needed the little amplifier to secure a strong signal. However, last winter, during the Olympics, the NBC digital broadcast exhibited signal strength drops. This seems to have gone away. But then recently, the CBS station had exhbited this problem. The station claims they are having no problems (if they can be believed) It was then that I noticed that a part of my antenna was bent. A part which sticks upward, vertical from the ground had gotten bent downward, and was preventing me from getting the PBS station (this had happened once before many months ago). I believe squirrels have done this as they jump to and from an overhead tree. I thought a fully encased antenna would be less susceptible to being bent by squirrels, and perhaps would reduce the signal drop problem. At this stage, my old Radio Shack antenna has been opened and closed so often that it is starting to break up (literally). I dare not move it again. I'd buy another if it was not for the squirrels. If I could only get a good PBS signal with the antenna in the attic, it would be fine. I'd either return the new antenna, or point it north to get another PBS station in Allentown, PA. Unfortunately, PBS has stopped broadcasting OTA digitally for a few days. They are making some changes. Maybe it will improve things. This is what they told me this evening:


WHYY-DT is off the air for required technical construction. The station

will return to the air late tomorrow or Weds. When we return to the air

the station will be located on UHF Channel 50. You will need to rescan

your DTV receiver or manually enter Ch. 50. The channel 55 location will

be unused as a result of this transition.


Others in the Philadelphia area may find this information useful.


----------



## newsposter

rlz2


i'm not sure how far out you are but i'm 40 miles out and have a DB8 and get in everything pretty good except pbs only comes in at night (reliably at least). I've noticed low signal readings on 57 lately in the AM but my PM shows have all come in Ok so far this TV season on that station. I've had virtually no problems on any of the big 5 networks so if you are having any problems with them, it probably is your setup/location.


caveat...most of our stuff is recorded at night but my wife likes rachael ray and oprah and even those come in OTA with 95% reliability. So much so that she's canceled the directv backup feed.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rlz2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When I first put the 80 inch antenna on the roof, I could get all the Philadelphia area digital broadcasts but the PBS station (whyy). It was a bit weak, and I needed the little amplifier to secure a strong signal. However, last winter, during the Olympics, the NBC digital broadcast exhibited signal strength drops.



I still feel that your amplifier is overloaded. Perhaps it's OK in the summer with a little extra loss through the leaves. There is only one preamp designed for strong signal locations, the Winegard HDP-269.


It's interesting that PBS is moving from channel 55 to channel 50 prior to the end of analog. I doubt that the performance will change much and it may get a bit worse. The power for WHYY on channel 55 is listed as 87 KW. The proposed power for channel 50 is 50 KW. The FCC data does not even indicated that WHYY is attached to the channel 50 allocation.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=165726


----------



## Rammitinski

Those Walmart Philips amps are on the high side noise-wise.


Could it be possible that's causing the problem?


----------



## FrankVP

Another newbie question. I am purchasing a Sony A2000 and I have an unused shortwave

antenna mounted in our attic. Can I use this as an external antenna on the TV?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cornhustler* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> True, but the AP-8700 is one of the few amplifiers that is designed to handle plenty of signal without overloading. (see chart) http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/Chart29.pdf but even then you could have problems. Start simple and go from there. Their HDP-269 can handle even more signal without overloading but it gives up a little gain. I know there are people from the Gretna and LaVista areas getting the stations west of Lincoln so hopefully you can too.



I have a AP-4700. It's in a box on the shelf. It overloads easily 8 miles from the Albany, NY stations, even when my 4228 antenna is aimed away from the Albany stations. I can only use the AP-4700 after a channel filter. The AP-8700 and AP-4700 have the same UHF overload characteristics.


----------



## Swift.Death.

Hello, just got a mits 1080p t.v. and i wanted to start recieving over the air HD. I don't really want cable cause i don't watch tv that often and i've heard the hd cable channels kinda suck anyway. I live in Portland Or, but on the very edge north of beaverton so im like 10 miles from downtown. What would I need to recieve HD over the air. Can you use a regular antenna or are there special ones? sorry for the noob question.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Swift.Death.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello, just got a mits 1080p t.v. and i wanted to start recieving over the air HD. I don't really want cable cause i don't watch tv that often and i've heard the hd cable channels kinda suck anyway. I live in Portland Or, but on the very edge north of beaverton so im like 10 miles from downtown. What would I need to recieve HD over the air. Can you use a regular antenna or are there special ones? sorry for the noob question.



From antennaweb.org, here's your stations, channels and distances:

* yellow - uhf KOIN-DT 6.1 CBS PORTLAND OR 107° 4.2 40

* yellow - uhf KPDX-DT 49.1 MNT VANCOUVER WA 108° 3.2 48

* yellow - uhf KGW-DT 8.1 NBC PORTLAND OR 106° 3.4 46

* yellow - uhf KNMT-DT 45.1 TBN PORTLAND OR 106° 4.2 45

* yellow - uhf KATU-DT 2.1 ABC PORTLAND OR 107° 4.2 43

* yellow - uhf KRCW-DT 32.1 CW SALEM OR 106° 4.2 33

* yellow - uhf KOPB-DT 10.1 PBS PORTLAND OR 106° 3.4 27

* yellow - uhf KPTV-DT 12.1 FOX PORTLAND OR 107° 3.4 30

* yellow - vhf KPXG-DT 22.1 i SALEM OR 106° 4.2 4

* blue - uhf KOAC-DT 7.1 PBS CORVALLIS OR 183° 66.9 39

There are 9 UHF stations and 1 VHF station. They are very close to you. If you ignore channel 4, the Zenith silver sensor might work for you.
http://www.zenith.com/sub_prod/produ...sp?cat=&id=131 

Rabbit ears would work for channel 4.

If you want to avoid the adjustment hassles that comes with indoor antennas, this antenna is fine and would work in the attic.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103084


----------



## nybbler

No, an antenna designed for shortwave (HF) won't work. TV is VHF and UHF, mostly UHF for digital for the moment.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FrankVP* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have an unused shortwave antenna mounted in our attic.



You must have one *HUGE* attic.







As most all the shortwave antenna I've seen are about five time the size of even a VHF antenna. Anyway, nybbler is correct, it's not what you need for TV.


----------



## rodder

I need some help selecting an antenna for my area. Most of the main networks are on UHF but CBS is now on VHF and I am not sure whether to get a combination or 2 separate antenna. The CEA recommends a small multidirectional. I was planning on mounting the antenna in the attic space. I was looking at the DB4 or the CM4221 but then would need a VHF recommendation. Any help would be appreciated.


By the way this is for a Sony 65" Grand Wega. So I want quality HD reception. I tried the Zenith Silver Sensor with mixed results. Had frame freeze and dropout problems and it was very sensitive to direction.


Following is the station infomation from CEA:

yellow - uhf WTVK 46 CW NAPLES FL 354° 14.8 46

yellow - uhf WTVK-DT 45.1 CW NAPLES FL 354° 14.8 45

yellow - uhf WRXY 49 CTN TICE FL 354° 14.8 49

yellow - uhf WRXY-DT 33.1 CTN TICE FL 354° 14.8 33

yellow - vhf WINK 11 CBS FORT MYERS FL 1° 15.5 11

yellow - vhf WINK-DT 11.1 CBS FORT MYERS FL 1° 15.5 9

yellow - uhf WFTX 36 FOX CAPE CORAL FL 353° 15.5 36

yellow - uhf WFTX-DT 36.1 FOX CAPE CORAL FL 353° 15.5 35

yellow - uhf WGCU 30 PBS FORT MYERS FL 2° 16.6 30

yellow - uhf WGCU-DT 30.1 PBS FORT MYERS FL 2° 16.6 31

yellow - uhf WZVN 26 ABC NAPLES FL 149° 12.9 26

green - uhf WTPH-LP 14 AZA FORT MYERS FL 352° 10.7 14

lt green - uhf W38CO 38 TBN FORT MYERS FL 352° 10.7 38

red - uhf WZVN-DT 26.1 ABC NAPLES FL 1° 17.1 41

red - uhf WBBH 20 NBC FORT MYERS FL 1° 17.3 20

red - uhf WBBH-DT 20.1 NBC FORT MYERS FL 1° 17.1 15

blue - vhf WEVU 4 MNT FORT MYERS FL 308° 8.8 4

blue - uhf WXPX 66 i BRADENTON FL 336° 65.2 66

blue - uhf WDPX-LP 18 i FORT MYERS FL 237° 8 18

violet - uhf WXDT-LP 23 IND NAPLES FL 193° 26.1 23

violet - vhf WTIG-LP 2 i NAPLES FL 191° 18 2

violet - uhf WYDT-CA 32 IND NAPLES FL 193° 26.1 32

violet - uhf WZDT-LP 39 IND NAPLES FL 193° 26.1 39


----------



## texasbrit

If you use a CM4228 it should give you good reception on frequency 11 as well as on UHF. It's one of the few UHF antennas that give decent performance on VHF-hi (the XG91 is another). And it will probably give you all your digital stations even in the attic - though you may need the CM7777 preamp.

I have an attic-mounted CM4228 in Dallas and it gets good reception on all the main DFW digital stations including a "red" station on frequency 9 and a few "violet" stations.


----------



## rgathright

I currently have the CM4228 and it works great most of the time.


Is there an UHF antenna that is better than the CM4228? I am trying to pull in the Baton Rouge NBC station which is just out of the range of the CM4228.


----------



## texasbrit

What's that distance, about 90 miles?? Your problem is the curvature of the earth is blocking the signal - can you get your antenna up any higher?? The 91XG MAY be marginally better than the CM4228 at some frequencies - what channel is the station on? And what are you using for a pre-amp?


----------



## rgathright

I have the CM7777 pre-amp. It is channel 33.1 (I think) NBC.


----------



## texasbrit

Do you get any signal at all, and what sort of tuner do you have? Any splitters??


----------



## rgathright

No splitters and it depends on the weather (I guess) if I get something or not. When I first got it I had a strong signal, then the next day could not get anything.


As you can see in my address I am living/working in Spring. I get to visit our house twice a month, so am limited on time to play with the antenna. I will be there for 7 days around the end of November and will attempt to play around with it more. This is the reason for asking about the (possible 91XG) antenna.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rgathright* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have the CM7777 pre-amp. It is channel 33.1 (I think) NBC.



Is this the NBC station you are trying to get: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WVLA? WVLA-DT broadcasts digitally on UHF 34, analog on 33. The FCC entry shows a STA low power of 1 KW and a construction permit to go to a full power of 1000 KW, but they may have gone full power back in July with the July 1 deadline. You should check with the Baton Rouge locals thread or contact the station to confirm that they are full power before you put a lot of effort into trying to get the signal.


Just how far are you from WVLA-DT? The terrain in that area is fairly flat so that does help with long range pickup, but anything beyond 65+ miles usually becomes a crapshoot with UHF.


----------



## texasbrit

I think they are at full power although you do need to check.

I think the distance is just over 80 miles which as afiggatt says makes it a crapshoot with UHF because of earth curvature. How high is your antenna, at that range just a few feet can make a lot of difference, and what tuner do you have, newer systems have much better tuners...


----------



## rgathright

I have the Directv HD200 by Sony receiver.


----------



## texasbrit

OK, here's what I would do.

1) If possible, try to get some extra height on your CM4228. As I said, even a few feet can have a positive impact at that range.

2) Call DirecTV and ask for an upgrade to the H20 receiver. If you have been a good customer they may do this free of charge - get the new 5-lnb dish installed while you are at it (it is part of the package), you may need it in the future when DirecTV starts broadcasting more national HD channels. The H20 has a very good OTA ATSC tuner, much better than any of the previous generation receivers (including the HD200)

3) If that still does not work, and you are absolutely set on getting the Baton Rouge station, try the 91XG. The danger is it might still not work and you will have spent some money!!


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rgathright* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is there an UHF antenna that is better than the CM4228? I am trying to pull in the Baton Rouge NBC station which is just out of the range of the CM4228.



Let me add my $.02 worth to this discusion. You may well have the best antenna for your situation already. The XG91 is an excellent Yagi with a fairly good corner reflector. Very different in design from the 4228, but the gain figures are about equal. Most of the testing I've seen puts the XG91 slightly better above channel 50, and the 4228 slightly better below channel 50.


Thing is, no receiving antenna "pulls in" a signal. The broadcast antenna pushes (so to speak) the signal your direction. If that signal is not getting to your antenna, it won't matter how much gain your antenna has, it won't send any signal down your lead-in cable. Antennas are kind of like a transformer. They take the RF energy from the air and transform it into a voltage that the lead-in carries to your receiver. The higher the antenna gain the more voltage your tuner sees. If that is still not enough voltage for the tuner to lock on, your pre-amp may boost the voltage enough for the tuner to lock. But, if the signal isn't reaching the antenna, the situation is like 0 X (antenna gain) X (pre-amp gain) still equals 0.


And, yes, at your distance (and mine) from the transmitters, weather conditions, antenna height, antenna aim, and many other factors have a much greater affect on reception than does the choice of antenna.


----------



## texasbrit

Agree completely with Neil's analysis. There have however been recent reports that the 91XG seems to outperform the CM4228 even at the lower UHF frequencies (despite the gain figures). I have a CM4228 and works great for me, but I am only 42 miles from the transmitters - anyway I have no need to try the 91XG.

The only four variables that you really have control of are antenna height, direction, tuner performance and cable/connector quality. So if your antenna is as high as possible, pointed correctly, you have decent quality RG6 cable and your connectors are in good shape, and you have the best tuner you can get - then not much is left. I have seen reports of people stacking two 91XGs to get an extra 3db, but 3db gain on zero signal is still zero.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rgathright* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I currently have the CM4228 and it works great most of the time.
> 
> 
> Is there an UHF antenna that is better than the CM4228? I am trying to pull in the Baton Rouge NBC station which is just out of the range of the CM4228.



The most obvious factor to me is how well you can receive WVLA analog on Ch33.If their DT on 34 is at full height and full power you should be able to receive the DT,IF the analog comes in fairly well(color,some snow),AND if there is no other station within 150 miles on Ch34.


Reception past 70mi over flat terrain is iffy for various reasons.The above mentioned antennas will be about equal on 34.The only thing better would be a large Euro Band A.Has around 5db more gain,but you may need A LOT MORE than that,to be reliable.


----------



## rgathright

The problem is I am in a new neighborhood and the restrictions will not let me go any higher with the antenna even with the FCC rule.


Just will have to wait until the NBC station from New Orleans gets back online.


texasbrit


Due to the B**** Katrina I have two residences now. My main Directv setup is for the Houston area being I am here more than at my actual home. So by getting the HD20 and the dish will not do me any good for the HD locals from Directv. Some of my wife's favorite shows are on NBC, so the reason for trying to get the Baton Rouge station.


----------



## cpcat

To get significantly better than the 4228 you'll have to either go with a grouped channel (or even single channel) antenna or do a horizontal/vertical stack. The Triax Unix 100 Band A is excellent for channel 34 as MaxHd mentioned. The disadvantage to the grouped channel antenna obviously is that you give up wide band performance.


There are preamps which are better than the 7777 (i.e. Research Comms. HDTV LNA) as well but any improvement will be incremental not monumental.


----------



## texasbrit

I was suggesting that somehow you get the H20 just for the improvement in OTA tuner performance...


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasbrit* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was suggesting that somehow you get the H20 just for the improvement in OTA tuner performance...





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasbrit* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The H20 has a very good OTA ATSC tuner, much better than any of the previous generation receivers (including the HD200)



Can you expand on that? I wasn't aware of the H20 having the rep of being any better than prior tuners for long distance. If you're referring to the LG-built box, I'd suspect it would actually perform slightly worse for long distance as it's designed for rejecting multipath.


----------



## greywolf

The 5th generation LG chipset doesn't reject multipath but uses it. It takes all the signal reflections and fits them together in phase. The H20-600 uses it and gets rave reviews for its OTA tuner. The trick is to get one that doesn't burn your fingers and constantly reboot.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greywolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The 5th generation LG chipset doesn't reject multipath but uses it. It takes all the signal reflections and fits them together in phase. The H20-600 uses it and gets rave reviews for its OTA tuner. The trick is to get one that doesn't burn your fingers and constantly reboot.



Are you sure you aren't confusing the 5th gen LG with the so called "Casper" chip which never materialized?


I've heard others report the 5th gen LG is less than stellar with long distance reception. What have you compared it with and from how far?


----------



## greywolf

All I have are reports on the difference between the H20-100(RCA) and the H20-600(LG) for long distance pickup and my memory of a description of the LG chip function. There have been a number of people who had -600s replaced because they were constantly rebooting due to a software problem. The 100s which replaced them caused problems getting long distance OTA for a number of respondents.


----------



## cpcat

Unfortunately, as manufacturers/designers have tried to deal with multipath for those at close range, the tuners have gotten a little less sensitive. I have 3rd and 4th gen LG as well as whatever is in the H10. I've also used the Walmart/USDigital box as well as whatever is in my Panny 50PX50U plasma. For long distance, the 3rd gen LG has been the best overall for me. The 4th gen LG does seem a little better with the one signal I have which I believe is multipathed (based on it's analog equivalent).


It doesn't sound like I'll be trying the 5th gen LG anytime soon unless it comes out in another box. That's good info on the other D*box as well, thanks. Guess I won't be getting that one either.


The older RCA ATSC11 model seems to have the rep of very high sensitivity but I've never used it and they are hard to find.


----------



## ctdish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've heard others report the 5th gen LG is less than stellar with long distance reception. What have you compared it with and from how far?



I haven't seen any indication that 5 gen chips are less sensitive than earlier types. I compared the performance of a 5 gen AutumnWave USB HDTV GT receiver with several others here. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ghlight=ctdish HDTV GT I have one channel FOX on 54 that is just above the noise here and the 5 th gen chip did just fine.

John


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I haven't seen any indication that 5 gen chips are less sensitive than earlier types. I compared the performance of a 5 gen AutumnWave USB HDTV GT receiver with several others here. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ghlight=ctdish HDTV GT I have one channel FOX on 54 that is just above the noise here and the 5 th gen chip did just fine.
> 
> John




I wasn't aware the 5th gen LG chip was used with that tuner. I'm assuming you are referring to another chipset which has remained highly sensitive in later generations or is this actually the LG chip?


The problem has been that tuners which do better with multipath tend to be less sensitive. I've not seen anything that suggests this has been solved.


Edit: I see that that is the LG chip. What would be nice for me to see is a comparison of this to their 3rd and 4th gen chips. Also, it sounds like you were experiencing a fair amount of multipath for whatever reason which certainly should favor the 5th gen LG.


----------



## ctdish

I only get to experment with multipath from the Providence channels because with a large antenna up high that is what I receive. These stations are 50 miles away and not line of sight due to the hills of New England. My experience is that at long distances I always get some multipath. I watch the four major networks from Providence because they come in the best. I don't have a good way to measure the SNR of the channels but channel 54 went from usable about 60% of the time to 90% when I changed the antenna preamp from an AP4700 to a Research Comms. 0.4 dB N.F. one.


----------



## stanger89

Hello all,


I posted this in my local reception forum, but no bites yet, and I'm sure you guys have some suggestions:


I'm having a bit of trouble getting a couple locals, 2, 7, and 9 (on 51, 55, and 52). 27/28 and 35/32 come in perfect, with (IIRC) 100% strenght on every tuner I have. The others, 2, 7, and 9 are right on the threshold, being unreliable, working most of the time on some tuners and only partially on others.


The setup is a 10' V/UHF antenna from Radioshack an ancestor or the VU-120XR I believe (I stole it from my parrents). That feeds an RS amp (had laying around), amp is place within 6' of cable of the antenna. From there it feeds a splitter and then onto an Avermedia A180, MyHD MDP-130, and a Dish VIP211.


As near as I can tell, without having a compass handy, I'm aimed at 2,7,9,35, and I've moved the antenna around to maximize the signal. Just looking for suggestions. Is there any way to tell if the problem is lack of strengh vs multipath?


I have no interest in analog (read VHF) reception, just digital, and I'm wondering if a better, smaller (I don't need 8-feet of wasted VHF antenna) would serve me better.


Thanks


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I only get to experment with multipath from the Providence channels because with a large antenna up high that is what I receive. These stations are 50 miles away and not line of sight due to the hills of New England. My experience is that at long distances I always get some multipath. I watch the four major networks from Providence because they come in the best. I don't have a good way to measure the SNR of the channels but channel 54 went from usable about 60% of the time to 90% when I changed the antenna preamp from an AP4700 to a Research Comms. 0.4 dB N.F. one.




Interesting. My reception is from 50-130 miles and I only have one channel with any degree of multipath and it is at around 55 miles and out of a very mountainous area (Hazard KY). I assume the digital is multipathed because the analog equivalent is. My remaining analogs are just weak/snowy so I assume their digital equivalents are similar.


I have also found the RC preamps to be very good at long distances. I use the 9248 for hi band vhf, have used the 9250 for uhf (up to the point where a near lightning strike fried it), and now use the 9253 for uhf. Both the 9250 and 9253 are slightly better than the Sitco wide band uhf preamp which is in turn a fair amount better than the CM 7777 for uhf in my experience.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stanger89* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> 
> I posted this in my local reception forum, but no bites yet, and I'm sure you guys have some suggestions:
> 
> 
> I'm having a bit of trouble getting a couple locals, 2, 7, and 9 (on 51, 55, and 52). 27/28 and 35/32 come in perfect, with (IIRC) 100% strenght on every tuner I have. The others, 2, 7, and 9 are right on the threshold, being unreliable, working most of the time on some tuners and only partially on others.
> 
> 
> The setup is a 10' V/UHF antenna from Radioshack an ancestor or the VU-120XR I believe (I stole it from my parrents). That feeds an RS amp (had laying around), amp is place within 6' of cable of the antenna. From there it feeds a splitter and then onto an Avermedia A180, MyHD MDP-130, and a Dish VIP211.
> 
> 
> As near as I can tell, without having a compass handy, I'm aimed at 2,7,9,35, and I've moved the antenna around to maximize the signal. Just looking for suggestions. Is there any way to tell if the problem is lack of strengh vs multipath?
> 
> 
> I have no interest in analog (read VHF) reception, just digital, and I'm wondering if a better, smaller (I don't need 8-feet of wasted VHF antenna) would serve me better.
> 
> 
> Thanks



I'm assuming with that size antenna you are around 50+ miles from your stations. That being the case, you could certainly improve things for uhf by going with a dedicated uhf antenna such as a CM 4228 or wide band Yagi/corner reflector i.e. Antennasdirect XG91. You could also improve your performance with a better preamp from either CM (7777) or Winegard.


Don't forget that some of your locals may switch frequencies after analog shuts off so you might should keep the combo antenna in storage. If the analogs are 2, 7, 9 with corresponding digitals of 51, 55, and 52 it's very likely you'll need to have vhf capability as probably both 7 and 9 will continue to be vhf for digital after the changeover. The "core" channels of 2-51 will be the only ones available at that point so they will be forced to go to something other than 55 and 52. Go to http://www.tvradioworld.com for links to this info for your locals. Look under "complete FCC info" and then under the certificates for channel election.


Multipath is evidenced by ghosting on your analog channels. Weak signals without multipath will look snowy.


----------



## ctdish

I only can see multipath on analog stations with the antenna misaimed. Fox's analog station is on channel 64. It has moderate snow, somestimes a bit herring bone or a sort of texture, but nothing that could be caused a ghost. The peaks and dips on tne digital stations vary a little from minute to minute and a lot from day to day, but the only way i have found to see that amount of multipath is with the spectrum analyzer.

John


----------



## stanger89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm assuming with that size antenna you are around 50+ miles from your stations.



Actually more like 30:


KCRG-DT 9.1 325° 24.1 52
_KRIN-DT 35.1 325° 24.1 35_

KGAN-DT 2.1 325° 24.1 51

KWWL-DT 7.1 333° 28.8 55
_KFXA-DT 28.1 279° 25.8 27_


The 35 and 28 I get fine. I believe I'm aimed at about 325. The amp is mainly compensate for the splitter.


I guess my real question is if my reception hardware is "rolling off" above 35, the only channels I have trouble with are the relatively high frequency ones.



> Quote:
> Don't forget that some of your locals may switch frequencies after analog shuts off so you might should keep the combo antenna in storage.



I doubt I'll toss it, but I'm not really worried about it.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stanger89* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Actually more like 30:
> 
> 
> KCRG-DT 9.1 325° 24.1 52
> _KRIN-DT 35.1 325° 24.1 35_
> 
> KGAN-DT 2.1 325° 24.1 51
> 
> KWWL-DT 7.1 333° 28.8 55
> _KFXA-DT 28.1 279° 25.8 27_
> 
> 
> The 35 and 28 I get fine. I believe I'm aimed at about 325. The amp is mainly compensate for the splitter.
> 
> 
> I guess my real question is if my reception hardware is "rolling off" above 35, the only channels I have trouble with are the relatively high frequency ones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Most likely the gain is actually increasing with frequency if it's a typical yagi/corner reflector design. The beamwidth also narrows, though, so aim becomes more critical in the upper frequencies. You might double check your aim.


----------



## nybbler

One reason for the lower frequency channels doing better than the high ones would be if you've got a hill between you and the transmitting antennas; the higher the frequency the less tolerance to an obstructed line of sight. But your splitters and/or your amp or cables could be at fault also. Or it could be coincidence; those channels could be transmitting at lower power.


Another possibility with yagis is you've actually aimed a sidelobe at the station, rather than the main lobe. The sidelobes move with frequency.


----------



## 667dark

I'm new to HDTV and new to these boards. I have been looking into getting an antenna for ota broadcasts and need some advise. I live in a narrow forested canyon on the slopes of a mountain. I have the PBS and FOX tower in view and antenna web tells me the tower is only 2 miles away. I get the PBS hd channel with rabbit ears easily. Antenna web tells me that PBS is the only digital station I can recieve. There are two other digital stations in my area but the tower is over a mountain but only 15 miles away.


Will an antenna be able to pull in the digital channels? If so what antenna would you all recommend.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *667dark* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There are two other digital stations in my area but the tower is over a mountain but only 15 miles away.
> 
> 
> Will an antenna be able to pull in the digital channels?



No. Antenna don't pull channels.







If the signal gets to your antenna, however, you will be fine. And you may well get some defraction over the mountain. Could try setting the rabbit ears on the roof as an experiment, and see what you get.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *667dark* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If so what antenna would you all recommend.



What channels are these two stations on?


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *667dark* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm new to HDTV and new to these boards. I have been looking into getting an antenna for ota broadcasts and need some advise. I live in a narrow forested canyon on the slopes of a mountain. I have the PBS and FOX tower in view and antenna web tells me the tower is only 2 miles away. I get the PBS hd channel with rabbit ears easily. Antenna web tells me that PBS is the only digital station I can receive.



The default Antennaweb settings are very conservative for digital reception. Go to the antennaweb address & zip page, enter your address, click on the options link at the bottom of the page and enter in something like 100 feet or higher into the height box. I have to enter around 150 feet to get a close match to the digital stations that I get with a Channel Master 4221 4 Bay and CM 7777 pre-amp mounted in my attic.


If you give us your zip code, we can look up the local broadcast stations for you and see if some are at low power or not broadcasting digitally at all (Class A stations for example). Also, find out what channels these stations are broadcasting their digital signal on: UHF, upper VHF (7 to 13), low VHF (2 to 6)?


----------



## Buckeyefan

I'm about to install an antenna on my gable end of my roof. I have a two story house in Columbus (maybe 15 miles northeast max from the major stations). My problem is I've got a 40' maple in the path of downtown Columbus and where my antenna will be. I'd like to use a larger boom antenna, but am limited to where I can place it, as I live on a corner in a suburban neighborhood.


Is it better to put a larger antenna behind a tree, or a smaller unit off the side of the house (lower) in the path of the signal? I'd really like a UHF/VHF antenna if possible.


Please help, as this is going up before the Buckeye game tomorrow and Time Warner doesn't do ABC in HD.


Thanks in advance.


----------



## Neil L

Buckeyefan,


At your close range, I would go with the smaller antenna in the clear. You shouldn't need a large antenna, and trees may not hinder reception, but they can. Or wind may blow branches into or onto the antenna and break it.


----------



## rsv1000

I am looking for some advice. I am about 55 miles from the one channel that I still need to pick up (ch 19). I would like to keep it in the attic if possible even though I know that hurts my siginal.

I have been looking at info about several different 8-bay antennas; the Antennas Direct DB8, Winegard PR 8800, and the CM 4228. The 8800 seems like it might be the best for the channel that I need and it is also the least expensive, but I haven't seen it discussed much.

Please help me...


----------



## 667dark

Thanks for your help and good sugestions. My zip is 59803 I am about 2 miles from 59801 where there is a line of sight to the three digital stations I am trying to get. The channels are 8.1 13.1 and 36.1. Two are uhf and one vhf.


Thanks again


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *667dark* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for your help and good sugestions. My zip is 59803 I am about 2 miles from 59801 where there is a line of sight to the three digital stations I am trying to get. The channels are 8.1 13.1 and 36.1. Two are uhf and one vhf.



Hmm, interesting - Missoula, MT. Yep, you are not near a top 100 DMA city!










From antennaweb, for a street somewhere in your zip & plugging in a silly high antenna height, I get 4 stations:

* yellow - uhf KUFM-DT 27.1 PBS MISSOULA MT 94° 3.1 27

* yellow - vhf KPAX-DT 8.1 CBS MISSOULA MT 349° 13.9 7

* green - uhf KECI-DT 13.1 NBC MISSOULA MT 349° 13.9 40

* lt green - uhf KTMF-DT 36.1 ABC MISSOULA MT 349° 14.0 36

I see there is a Fox affiliate in Missoula, KMFF 17, but the FCC database only shows an application for a digital flash cut for their remote translator, not for the main station. But I also see that you have found the locals thread, so perhaps someone can help you find out what the deal is with the station or you can contact the station. The FCC database ( http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/tvq.html ) also shows some of the stations are at low power.


You are obviously in a challenging situation for TV reception. You will need the maximum height you can get up on a roof with a good medium to long range upper VHF/UHF antenna. If it was not for the mountain, I would suggest the Channel Master 4221 4 bay. Small enough to mount high up on a pole. But you may need maximum antenna gain for even a chance of success. Hope someone else can make a good suggestion for what might work for you.


----------



## texasbrit

The CM4221 is very poor at VHF-hi (channel 7). You would probably need a CM4228 to get that channel, or a VHF/UHF combination antenna.


----------



## 667dark

Thanks afiggatt. Great information. Yes Missoula is not the center of the ota HD world.










I called the fox station and they do not expect to be broadcasting a digital signal until the end of next year. I have dish network for local stations now. As I understand it the digital stations for Missoula are not available on the dish. The dish signal is so compresses anyway that I would prefer the ota if possible. Is the CM4228 a posibility for me?


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasbrit* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The CM4221 is very poor at VHF-hi (channel 7). You would probably need a CM4228 to get that channel, or a VHF/UHF combination antenna.



I would not call the CM4221 "poor" for VHF 7. While it is not by no means the best UHF antenna which also can get the upper VHF channels, I get good picture quality with a CM4221 for analog stations 7 and 9 from 16 miles away. I also get a digital VHF 12 station located behind the antenna from some 46 miles away. VHF 7 will propagate over a mountain ridge better than the UHF channels, so he is not likely to need a long range VHF antenna, but one with good UHF gain.


But, yes, the CM 4228 is better for long range and has more gain for upper VHF channels. But it has a much narrower beamwidth, and 667dark has a PBS station located some 100 degrees off in azimuth from the rest. The station may be close enough that the CM4228 will pick up the station, but it may not. The CM4228 is also rather heavy & large and will require a very sturdy outdoor mount to handle the snow and wind loads that one is likely to get in Montana. OTOH, that will be a concern for any antenna 667dark puts up, just more so for the CM4228.


667dark, in case you have not checked out this website, it has a lot of useful info on antennas: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html .


----------



## rungefamily

I recently (10/27) lost my local reception. I have a TERK indoor antenna, that up until now worked just fine getting the local feeds in HD. Now my TV just states that the signals are not available.


HELP, if you all can!


----------



## Neil L

Is it just HD that you have lost? Are you still getting SD digital? Still getting analog stations?


----------



## rungefamily

Yes. Only HD is lost. Analog comes in.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rungefamily* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I recently (10/27) lost my local reception. I have a TERK indoor antenna, that up until now worked just fine getting the local feeds in HD. Now my TV just states that the signals are not available.



I'm in the DC area and all the digital local stations are on the air. No problem getting them, although we do have heavy rains moving through the area. I would suggest you try a rescan with your ATSC receiver. Check the Baltimore-Washington locals thread ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=517400 ) if you are not sure about the status of the DC stations.


----------



## rungefamily

afiggatt--thanks. I also read back a few pages--it appears that during summer months, indoor antennae seem to work well. With the fairly drastic weather change over literally the past few days here, it doesn't surprise me. Unfortunately, I don't have any way to put in an outdoor unit.


Funny thing is that I have the same receiver (and problem) as the person who posted #5037 on page 168


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rungefamily* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> afiggatt--thanks. I also read back a few pages--it appears that during summer months, indoor antennae seem to work well. With the fairly drastic weather change over literally the past few days here, it doesn't surprise me. Unfortunately, I don't have any way to put in an outdoor unit.



Which model Terk antenna do you have? I'm wondering if your problem is that you had a borderline signal which dropped below the threshold with the heavy weather. There may be a better indoor antenna you can use. Or if you have an attic, put an antenna there. With a CM 4221 in my attic, the DC stations come in fine at 16 miles and the Baltimore stations come in pretty reliably at 43 miles, although WBAL 11 will suffer dropouts in poor weather. If you also provide your zip code, we can make recommendations for the antenna setup.


----------



## rungefamily

TERK HDTVA is the model. I never had an issue on any digital or HD channel until last night. Never a dropout, but now I get nothing. I did a rescan and got nothing. Pretty wierd. I am in Ashburn and not much further out than yourself. I have no attic as I am in an APT. Oh ya....20148


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rungefamily* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> TERK HDTVA is the model. I never had an issue on any digital or HD channel until last night. Never a dropout, but now I get nothing. I did a rescan and got nothing. Pretty wierd. I am in Ashburn and not much further out than yourself. I have no attic as I am in an APT. Oh ya....20148



If the digital stations are still out, you should try to clear the ATSC receiver channel list. Disconnect the antenna at the TV or STB and do a full scan to clear the list. Then reconnect the antenna, check all the coaxial connections, and then do another scan.


You have the Terk copy of the Silver Sensor which is a good indoor UHF antenna. Better than most of the other Terk models. If you need to stick to an antenna which can fit indoors, the AntennasDirect DB-2 will offer better performance than the Terk. You will have to create a mount for it as it is sold as an outdoor antenna. If you look at the chart on the HDTVprimer website located here: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html , you will see the DB-2 (line L) has 1 to 4 dB more gain than the Silver Sensor (I). Click on the links for the two antennas for charts and more info.


----------



## texasbrit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would not call the CM4221 "poor" for VHF 7.



Well, it looks like its performance on VHF is worse than "rabbit ears" so I would call that a "not recommended" at least. Look at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


There is a section looking at the performance of UHF antennas on VHF. You will see that "rabbit ears" are shown with a gain of -2 to -6db on VHF-lo and around -6db on VHF-hi. The CM4221 numbers are 0db on channel 13, -18db on channel 7, and -25db or worse on VHF-lo. The antennaweb requirements for "yellow" channels are -15db on VHF-hi and -25db on VHF-lo. So the CM4221 is marginal on yellow VHF-lo at best, and certainly worse than "rabbit ears".


Of course the "yellow" category covers a very wide range of stations - if you have a high-power or close in station then there will be no problem with the CM4221 - if your station is at the extreme edge of "yellow" then you could have problems. And everyone's situation is different, so all these numbers are only approximate. I am just suggesting a note of caution when hoping to use the CM4221 for VHF-lo;

you might be disappointed.


And yes, you are right that moving to the CM4228 reduces the beamwidth and so would cause a problem if the stations are spread widely.


----------



## rungefamily

Afiggatt--

Thanks--I'll give the DB-2 a try. I just hope it isn't my TV tuner. Is there any way to verify that before I go through this? I only wonder about this because reception was perfect watching TV on Wednesday, then Thurs. evening we turned on the TV to crap reception in analog.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rungefamily* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Afiggatt--
> 
> Thanks--I'll give the DB-2 a try. I just hope it isn't my TV tuner. Is there any way to verify that before I go through this? I only wonder about this because reception was perfect watching TV on Wednesday, then Thurs. evening we turned on the TV to crap reception in analog.



If the picture quality has gone to crap on the analog stations and you cannot get the digital channels, you have a problem. Could be the receiver or a bad connection. First step is to check all the connections from the antenna to the tuner - disconnect and reconnect them. Check the antenna as well. What ATSC tuner are you using? STB, built in to the TV?


----------



## Buckeyefan

Quick couple of questions - First off, I got my CM 3018 for the Buckeye game Saturday but didn't get it mounted due to high winds. I was able to pick up the game quite nicely by just setting the UHF part on my deck! That alone picked up over 20 stations. I can't wait to get it mounted on the roof.


1) I bought a 100' run of RG6 in white. Lowes nor Home Depot had quad shield RG6 in white, and my entire house is white with white trim. The cable needs to hug the gable rake and travel down a corner. Is this ok, or should I have gone with quad shield? (I had some RG59, but didn't want to risk all this work for a paper thin cable).


2) My roof top is approximately 28' at the gable. I plan on using a 5' pole. After the bracket is mounted, the antenna will probably be 30' up (gable mount bracket). Should I purchase a 10' pole instead? Will it make that much of a difference being 35' in the air as opposed to 30'? I'm about 15 miles from downtown Columbus, and I have a pretty clear shot from here. Most of the stations I was pulling in from the deck were weak other than ABC.


----------



## rsv1000

I am looking for some advice. I am about 55 miles from the one channel that I still need to pick up (ch 19). I would like to keep it in the attic if possible even though I know that hurts my siginal.

I have been looking at info about several different 8-bay antennas; the Antennas Direct DB8, Winegard PR 8800, and the CM 4228. The 8800 seems like it might be the best for the channel that I need and it is also the least expensive, but I haven't seen it discussed much.

Please help me...


----------



## texasbrit

If you look here http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html you will see that the 8800 is shown to be marginally better than the other antennas at channel 19 but drops off above that so is not the best general choice. Attic mounting for 55 miles is not a good choice, you can get 50% or more signal loss in the attic. But before spending money, do you know if you have any chance of getting this station even with the best antenna? Go to antennaweb.org and put in your exact address, then cut and paste the results into your reply to this post.


----------



## tyromark

Buckeyefan - I understand RG6 is fine, and quad-shield unnecessary. As for the mast height, people say much of the hit-or-miss nature of reception comes in the vertical direction as well as horizontal. If you have a 10' mast that is one piece, why not hold it up there at the mount and try lowering the mast to see if there's any difference? Just experiment a few minutes. There may be a sweeter spot a couple of feet lower than the max... And the lower the mast the less wind (remember Saturday) damage potential.


----------



## FreeBaGeL

Wow this looks like a great thread going here, lots of good info but I have a few more specific questions.


I live in Central Florida (Gainesville) and I will be switching to E* this week and HD locals are not available in my area. E* has said that if I have an outdoor OTA antenna they will attach it for me when they install my satellite dish.


Below is the list of digital stations available in my area via antennaweb. Being able to pick up the ABC, CBS, and FOX stations are a must for me. I've been playing around with an indoor Silver Sensor antenna and can pick up ABC no problem, but despite looking like it should come in easily I have not been able to pick up CBS nor have I been able to pick up FOX (which is further away).


My condo complex has several two story buildings and there are quite a few trees nearby. What antenna should I be looking at? I would also prefer something multi-directional that I do not ever have to rotate.


If it helps, my zipcode is 32607. Is there a good solution out there that will for sure pick up at least the channels listed below (although PBS is much less important than the others)? Any outside chance of pulling in Jacksonville or Orlando's FOX/NBC HD (neither even show up on antennaweb for me)?


Thanks in advance.



> Quote:
> DTV Antenna
> 
> Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live
> 
> Date Compass
> 
> Orientation Miles
> 
> From Frequency
> 
> Assignment
> 
> * yellow - uhf WCJB-DT 20.1 ABC GAINESVILLE FL 189° 6.7 16
> 
> * yellow - uhf WGFL-DT 28.1 CBS HIGH SPRINGS FL 273° 11.0 28
> 
> * yellow - uhf WUFT-DT 36.1 PBS GAINESVILLE FL 1° 5.3 36
> 
> * yellow - uhf WOGX-DT 51.1 FOX OCALA FL 173° 19.3 31


----------



## rgathright




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasbrit* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was suggesting that somehow you get the H20 just for the improvement in OTA tuner performance...



Well my Sony HD200 may have bite the dust. Will I have to change the dish out if I order the H20?


----------



## rsv1000

Here are my results from antennaweb.com


yellow - 41.1 FOX LOUISVILLE KY 323° 2.2 49

yellow - 3.1 NBC LOUISVILLE KY 356° 3.0 47

yellow - 11.1 ABC LOUISVILLE KY 331° 2.5 55

yellow - 58.1 MNT SALEM IN 323° 2.2 51

yellow - 15.1 PBS LOUISVILLE KY 354° 2.9 17

yellow - 32.1 CBS LOUISVILLE KY 356° 3.0 26

yellow - 38.1 PBS LOUISVILLE KY 354° 2.9 38

red - 21.1 i LOUISVILLE KY 173° 20.5 8

blue - 34 CW CAMPBELLSVILLE KY 163° 58.6 34


Note:

The above listing is a conservative prediction of stations received. Depending on the specifics of your installation, you may be able to receive stations that do not appear in this list.


I know that ch19 (34.1) is not listed, but it being broadcasted from Campbellsville, KY. And I have picked it up before using a Terk HDTVo mounted outside about 5' off the ground, but I was only getting about 35-50 signal strength. So, I know it is there.


What do you think?


----------



## cncjay

Greetings Folks,


I'm seeking help here in the Antenna HD OTA section, perhaps one of you experts can help diagnose the issue.


ZIPCODE: 91789 (Outskirts of Los Angeles, 30 miles East of downtown Los Angeles, located in the City of Walnut). There is a gradual incline that blends into a small hill behind my house. In addition, the neighbor has a large tree (wouldn't you know it) that is in the general direction of where the TV transmitters are located (Mount Wilson)


Utilizing Antennaweb.org, it displays NO digital channels available, which I'm not surprised given the hilly terrain (and of course, the neighbor's huge tree ;-)). Despite seen that, I ventured out last year and purchased a Channel Master CM4228 and the Channel Master Antenna Rotor. The antenna is attached to the chimney of a single story house. It probably extends another 5 ft from the top of the chimey, an oveall 15 ft from the ground. With the antenna rotor and the Channel Master 4228, I am able to pick up a good percentage of the HD/digital channels from over the air broadcast channels. CBS/ABC/NBC/WB seem fairly stable. PBS (One from Los Angeles County (KWHY) and the other, from Orange County (KOCE) was a hit or miss. Seems like I get one at and not the other depending on the time of day etc etc. Once in a while I get both of them. Nonetheless, either one available is just fine. I cannot pick up FOX whatsoever.


I have an LG Over the Air HD box. The signal strength bar seems to be right below the half mark. There are no actual percentage values displayed. One side is labeled as "bad", the other side as "good".


Dilemma:


I recently purchased a Sony HD Over the Air unit (DHG-HDD250) which also has the recording capabilities in HD. I basically replaced the LG set top box with the Sony. With the Sony unit, I've lost 98% of my HD channels. I only pick up one or two obscure 'digital channels". As it appears, perhaps, the LG set top box has a better tuner in comparing to the Sony. None of the network channels nor the PBS channels can be picked up with the Sony unit.


Given what I have as my configuration, can anyone please make a recommendation, suggestion, or an improvement to my current configuration that will help improve the reception. I'm thinking of raising my antenna another foot or two and see if increasing the height is of help. Would selecting a different antenna be of help ?


I stongly feel all the HD material I want is available over the air and shouldn't have to pay my cable company or subscribe to a satellite service but given where I live and the terrain conditions around me are as such, then I will look into a pay solution.


Regards,

Jay


----------



## jeffloby

Quote by RSV1000


"AD DB8, Winegard PR 8800, or CM 4228

Here are my results from antennaweb.com


yellow - 41.1 FOX LOUISVILLE KY 323° 2.2 49

yellow - 3.1 NBC LOUISVILLE KY 356° 3.0 47

yellow - 11.1 ABC LOUISVILLE KY 331° 2.5 55

yellow - 58.1 MNT SALEM IN 323° 2.2 51

yellow - 15.1 PBS LOUISVILLE KY 354° 2.9 17

yellow - 32.1 CBS LOUISVILLE KY 356° 3.0 26

yellow - 38.1 PBS LOUISVILLE KY 354° 2.9 38

red - 21.1 i LOUISVILLE KY 173° 20.5 8

blue - 34 CW CAMPBELLSVILLE KY 163° 58.6 34


Note:

The above listing is a conservative prediction of stations received. Depending on the specifics of your installation, you may be able to receive stations that do not appear in this list.


I know that ch19 (34.1) is not listed, but it being broadcasted from Campbellsville, KY. And I have picked it up before using a Terk HDTVo mounted outside about 5' off the ground, but I was only getting about 35-50 signal strength. So, I know it is there.


What do you think?"


I have had both a Winegard PR8800 and a Channel Master 4228. The Channel Master 4228 beat the Winegard 8800 hands down. I live about 30 miles north of Knoxville on I-75. It is a mountainous area so I feel it is farther than posted by antennaweb taken the terrain into account. The 4228 pulls in all the channels available including the VHF channel 7 and it holds a stronger and more consistent signal. The Channel Master 4228 is also stronger for me on channels 40 and above.


Thanks, Jeff


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FreeBaGeL* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If it helps, my zipcode is 32607. Is there a good solution out there that will for sure pick up at least the channels listed below (although PBS is much less important than the others)? Any outside chance of pulling in Jacksonville or Orlando's FOX/NBC HD (neither even show up on antennaweb for me)?



You are in a tricky situation with 4 stations in different directions. Punching in a high antenna height for your zip (click on options on the webantenna.com page), shows the analog NBC station and the other stations in Jacksonville to be around 67 miles away. WTLV-DT NBC 12 is broadcasting on VHF 13 and the FCC database service contour map for the full digital power entry ( http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=WTLV ) shows Gainesville at the outer edge. Antennaweb is not showing it because there is still a low power entry for the station. If you had a house, you could probably get WTLV-DT with a long range roof mount antenna.


But you are in a condo and I can't tell from your posting if you have windows or a back balcony in the direction of the ABC station while the CBS station is looking through the building or not. Do you have a back deck that you can put an antenna on that has a clear view - more or less - from 173 to 273 degrees in azimuth? You already have a good indoor antenna in the Silver Sensor. The next step up would be the AntennasDirect DB-2 which has a broad beamwidth and might get the 3 core stations if you have a spot with the minimum amount of building obstruction to place it.


----------



## FreeBaGeL




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You are in a tricky situation with 4 stations in different directions. Punching in a high antenna height for your zip (click on options on the webantenna.com page), shows the analog NBC station and the other stations in Jacksonville to be around 67 miles away. WTLV-DT NBC 12 is broadcasting on VHF 13 and the FCC database service contour map for the full digital power entry ( http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=WTLV ) shows Gainesville at the outer edge. Antennaweb is not showing it because there is still a low power entry for the station. If you had a house, you could probably get WTLV-DT with a long range roof mount antenna.
> 
> 
> But you are in a condo and I can't tell from your posting if you have windows or a back balcony in the direction of the ABC station while the CBS station is looking through the building or not. Do you have a back deck that you can put an antenna on that has a clear view - more or less - from 173 to 273 degrees in azimuth? You already have a good indoor antenna in the Silver Sensor. The next step up would be the AntennasDirect DB-2 which has a broad beamwidth and might get the 3 core stations if you have a spot with the minimum amount of building obstruction to place it.



The CBS direction is in fact the complete opposite direction as to where my TV is located. IE my TV is located in the back of the condo and the CBS signal comes from the direction facing the front of the condo, so that could be it but a few of my buddies have had no problems picking CBS and FOX, neither of which I can pick up with my indoor antenna.


I would have no problem with an outdoor antenna mounted with the dish if I could be sure I would get FOX, CBS, and ABC digital signals prior to making the switch over to satellite. Beyond that I'd be looking at a more involved roof mount which quite frankly I'm not sure I have the know-how to do, and the different directions provide a twist as well since I would prefer not to have to worry about the orientation of the antenna especially if it is mounted outside.


----------



## Swift.Death.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> From antennaweb.org, here's your stations, channels and distances:
> 
> * yellow - uhf KOIN-DT 6.1 CBS PORTLAND OR 107° 4.2 40
> 
> * yellow - uhf KPDX-DT 49.1 MNT VANCOUVER WA 108° 3.2 48
> 
> * yellow - uhf KGW-DT 8.1 NBC PORTLAND OR 106° 3.4 46
> 
> * yellow - uhf KNMT-DT 45.1 TBN PORTLAND OR 106° 4.2 45
> 
> * yellow - uhf KATU-DT 2.1 ABC PORTLAND OR 107° 4.2 43
> 
> * yellow - uhf KRCW-DT 32.1 CW SALEM OR 106° 4.2 33
> 
> * yellow - uhf KOPB-DT 10.1 PBS PORTLAND OR 106° 3.4 27
> 
> * yellow - uhf KPTV-DT 12.1 FOX PORTLAND OR 107° 3.4 30
> 
> * yellow - vhf KPXG-DT 22.1 i SALEM OR 106° 4.2 4
> 
> * blue - uhf KOAC-DT 7.1 PBS CORVALLIS OR 183° 66.9 39
> 
> There are 9 UHF stations and 1 VHF station. They are very close to you. If you ignore channel 4, the Zenith silver sensor might work for you.
> http://www.zenith.com/sub_prod/produ...sp?cat=&id=131
> 
> Rabbit ears would work for channel 4.
> 
> If you want to avoid the adjustment hassles that comes with indoor antennas, this antenna is fine and would work in the attic.
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103084



Thanks for the info. Where could i buy that first antenna, and what is the difference between uhf and vhf.


----------



## texasbrit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jeffloby* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Quote by RSV1000
> 
> 
> "AD DB8, Winegard PR 8800, or CM 4228
> 
> Here are my results from antennaweb.com
> 
> 
> yellow - 41.1 FOX LOUISVILLE KY 323° 2.2 49
> 
> yellow - 3.1 NBC LOUISVILLE KY 356° 3.0 47
> 
> yellow - 11.1 ABC LOUISVILLE KY 331° 2.5 55
> 
> yellow - 58.1 MNT SALEM IN 323° 2.2 51
> 
> yellow - 15.1 PBS LOUISVILLE KY 354° 2.9 17
> 
> yellow - 32.1 CBS LOUISVILLE KY 356° 3.0 26
> 
> yellow - 38.1 PBS LOUISVILLE KY 354° 2.9 38
> 
> red - 21.1 i LOUISVILLE KY 173° 20.5 8
> 
> blue - 34 CW CAMPBELLSVILLE KY 163° 58.6 34
> 
> 
> Note:
> 
> The above listing is a conservative prediction of stations received. Depending on the specifics of your installation, you may be able to receive stations that do not appear in this list.



If you go back to antennaweb and increase your height (click on "options") by say 150 ft, see if 34.1/19 appears. Antennaweb is very conservative when it comes to digital stations so increasing your height is a good way of seeing which stations you MAY be able to receive.


For 34.1/19 you will certainly need a good UHF antenna, I would suggest you go for the CM4228 or the Antennas Direct 91XG. One problem is all your other stations are in the opposite direction so that suggests you will need a rotator. However, they are so close to you that MAYBE the CM4228 would get the stations off the backside of the antenna, just point it at 34.1/19 and see what you get.

Normally with some stations very close and others at far fringe distance you would not be able to use a preamp. However since the close stations would be behind you a preamp might actually help - but if you use a rotator forget the preamp, you will overload severely when pointing at the Louisville stations.


I am sure some of the other posters on this forum will have comments on this!!!


----------



## Tower Guy

 http://www.solidsignal.tv/prod_displ...T=&PROD=ZHDTV1 


UHF has shorter wavelengths than VHF. This means that a small UHF antenna will be more directional than a large VHF antenna. A full sized VHF antenna picks up a stronger signal than a UHF antenna.


----------



## Davinleeds

Agree. I can receive 40 mile away signal when my 4228 is in opposite direction. But with dropouts.


----------



## texasbrit

Or you could try the Terk HDTVi (not the other Terk antennas) which is a Silver Sersor "clone" with added "rabbit ears".....


----------



## rsv1000

Thanks guys,


I think I will try an 8-bay antenna, how does the CM4228 compare with the Antennas Direct DB8 (jeffloby post: The Channel Master 4228 beat the Winegard 8800 hands down)? Should I go ahead and get a preamp, and if what kind?


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FreeBaGeL* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The CBS direction is in fact the complete opposite direction as to where my TV is located. IE my TV is located in the back of the condo and the CBS signal comes from the direction facing the front of the condo, so that could be it but a few of my buddies have had no problems picking CBS and FOX, neither of which I can pick up with my indoor antenna.



How much have you experimented with moving the Silver Sensor antenna around? If the CBS station is in the direction of the front of the condo, get a 25' RG-6 cable and barrel connector (if you do not have a long co-axial cable - BTW, Lowes or Home Depot are cheaper for cable than the Best Buy type stores) and move the antenna closer to the front of the condo or closer to a window facing more or less in the direction of the CBS and the Fox station if possible. Indoor or attic setups will have dead zones for reception for weaker signals, have to be prepared to move the antenna around until you find a good spot. You could have air ducts and the A/C system inside the condo between your antenna and the stations which are blocking the signal.


----------



## jeffloby




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rsv1000* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks guys,
> 
> 
> I think I will try an 8-bay antenna, how does the CM4228 compare with the Antennas Direct DB8 (jeffloby post: The Channel Master 4228 beat the Winegard 8800 hands down)? Should I go ahead and get a preamp, and if what kind?



I can not compare the 4228 and the DB8, but check out this website. It has good info. Overall I feel the 4228 is the best out there.




http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## FreeBaGeL




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How much have you experimented with moving the Silver Sensor antenna around? If the CBS station is in the direction of the front of the condo, get a 25' RG-6 cable and barrel connector (if you do not have a long co-axial cable - BTW, Lowes or Home Depot are cheaper for cable than the Best Buy type stores) and move the antenna closer to the front of the condo or closer to a window facing more or less in the direction of the CBS and the Fox station if possible. Indoor or attic setups will have dead zones for reception for weaker signals, have to be prepared to move the antenna around until you find a good spot. You could have air ducts and the A/C system inside the condo between your antenna and the stations which are blocking the signal.



Ah, thanks. I went ahead and got the means to extend the cable about 40 feet and that did the trick. Was able to pick up all the local OTA stations with my silver sensor in its new location. Most were at about half signal strength with FOX coming in at about 20%. My main concern was that I would switch to satellite and not be able to get my digital locals so this should pretty much clear that up, as it should mean with an ourdoor OTA antenna I should be able to pick all of them up with an even stronger signal (preferably quite a bit stronger), correct?


----------



## Rammitinski

I have a question I would like to pose.


I get various answers on this, but what is the correct type of splitter to use when the split comes between the two parts of a pre-amp?


----------



## ctdish

It needs to pass DC through at least one leg. The one that Radio Shack sells for satellite will work.

John


----------



## holl_ands

Satellite RF Splitters with DC PASS on one or both ports:
http://www.radioshack.com/sm-satelli...i-2103928.html 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=SP2HFA 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=SP2HF1 
http://www.amazon.com/ZENITH-ZDS-501.../dp/B00009W3X0 
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1110262781904 


You should use a Volt-Ohm Meter to make sure that there are no shorts on either cable run.

I've seen regular cable RF Splitters that were DC short circuits (they weren't very good in VHF band either).

It's perhaps also possible that there might be a TV out there somewhere that also acts as a DC short, in which case a DC isolator (e.g. standard cable RF Splitter) would be needed.


----------



## Rammitinski

Thanks.


----------



## rungefamily




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If the picture quality has gone to crap on the analog stations and you cannot get the digital channels, you have a problem. Could be the receiver or a bad connection. First step is to check all the connections from the antenna to the tuner - disconnect and reconnect them. Check the antenna as well. What ATSC tuner are you using? STB, built in to the TV?




I have it built into my Mitsubishi TV. I just got my new antenna from Antenna direct and I"ll see how it works


----------



## FreeBaGeL

Ok I had my local dish installer out today and was asking him about OTA antennas. I asked if I could just get my own OTA antenna and have him install it and he said yes, but that he could also provide the antenna. He mentioned that there's were "pretty good" but didn't know the model. I assume I'm better off just getting something on my own? Perhaps the 4228 that everyone seems to like?


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FreeBaGeL* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My main concern was that I would switch to satellite and not be able to get my digital locals so this should pretty much clear that up, as it should mean with an ourdoor OTA antenna I should be able to pick all of them up with an even stronger signal (preferably quite a bit stronger), correct?



Yes, if you have a location for the antenna that has a view of the direction of the broadcast towers. If you are looking for a compact antenna to mount outside on a wall which has more gain than the Silver Sensor, you should consider the AntennasDirect DB-2.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FreeBaGeL* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ok I had my local dish installer out today and was asking him about OTA antennas. I asked if I could just get my own OTA antenna and have him install it and he said yes, but that he could also provide the antenna. He mentioned that there's were "pretty good" but didn't know the model. I assume I'm better off just getting something on my own? Perhaps the 4228 that everyone seems to like?



How far are you from the broadcast towers? The CM 4228 is a long range directional UHF antenna for 40, 60, 70 mile ranges or difficult terrain. If you can give up your zip code, we can make recommendations for your situation.


----------



## FreeBaGeL

Zip is 32607, all the locals (ABC HD, CBS HD, FOX digital non-HD) are within 35 miles or so. Any chance of picking up the Jacksonville NBC-HD or FOX-HD affiliates?


----------



## Buckeyefan

After mounting my CM3018 to my roof at the gable end - probably 26 feet in the air unobstructed from downtown Columbus, Ohio, I'm finding the reception to be horrific.

http://www.pctinternational.com/chan...advantage.html 


I'd say I'm at most 12-15 miles from all the major stations including Fox. I'm only picking up Fox and ABC in HD with a perfectly clear signal. I've checked my home's position at the county GIF website, google maps, antenna.org, etc... as well as tweaking the antenna at every possible angle. I'm at a point where I'm thinking the antenna I have isn't the right one for HD.


Are these mast antenna's that sensitive that you must be within a few degrees to pick up a station with no distortion? Could it be I'm too close? There's not even leaves on the trees in the distance to affect the signal.


I was expecting 10-20 perfect signals once this antenna went up. I picked up 4-5 when I placed the UHF section of this antenna on the deck last weekend to watch the Buckeye game (ABC doesn't come in on HD with Time Warner Cable, thus the reason to erect an antenna).


I did notice a big difference when moving the antenna a few degrees towards and away from downtown. At one point, ABC totally went out. That was not a good thing during the game.


Would the CM4228 have made that much difference in signal pull? The site says 45 miles for mine, as opposed to 60 miles for the CM4228. As close as I am, I thought I'd get an antenna that would pull in VHF stations (ABC is VHF in Columbus, OH) instead of an all UHF antenna).


Thanks in advance.


Confused in Columbus


----------



## jeffloby

Try a CM4228. It will also pull in VHF. I went thru several antennas before getting the 4228 and it has been the best by far. nbc(4),abc(6),cbs(10) are VHF and fox(28) is uhf in Columbus. The CM4228 will handle these stations, it does for me and I have a weak station that is vhf channel 7 and it comes in fine.


----------



## texasbrit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jeffloby* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Try a CM4228. It will also pull in VHF. I went thru several antennas before getting the 4228 and it has been the best by far. nbc(4),abc(6),cbs(10) are VHF and fox(28) is uhf in Columbus. The CM4228 will handle these stations, it does for me and I have a weak station that is vhf channel 7 and it comes in fine.



NBC and CBS in Columbus are on UHF not VHF for their digital stations, the only one on VHF is ABC. And everyone is staying on their current digital channel when analog goes away.

From your location, are all the transmitters in the same direction?

The CM4228 is a much better UHF antenna than the CM3018 but at your distance you should not be having these problems. Are you getting zero signal strength on the other stations? Are you using a preamp, if so you may be getting overload...


----------



## FreeBaGeL

Well, haven't been able to get word on whether or not this will work so maybe I'll just go ahead and give it the old college try with a CM4228 and CM7777. Where's the best place ot purchase these?


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Buckeyefan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> After mounting my CM3018 to my roof at the gable end - probably 26 feet in the air unobstructed from downtown Columbus, Ohio, I'm finding the reception to be horrific.
> 
> ...
> 
> I'd say I'm at most 12-15 miles from all the major stations including Fox. I'm only picking up Fox and ABC in HD with a perfectly clear signal. I've checked my home's position at the county GIF website, google maps, antenna.org, etc... as well as tweaking the antenna at every possible angle. I'm at a point where I'm thinking the antenna I have isn't the right one for HD.
> 
> 
> Are these mast antenna's that sensitive that you must be within a few degrees to pick up a station with no distortion? Could it be I'm too close?



What is your zip code? The CM 3018 is a directional medium to long range antenna with a narrow pickup beam pattern. The key is the spread in azimuth and distances for local stations. The CM 4228 is also a long range directional antenna. If the stations are mostly within 15 miles, the CM 4221 has a much wider spread in azimuth. Checking Columbia, SC I see there is an ABC station at digital VHF 8 which is a drawback for selecting the CM 4221. But if it is under 20 miles and at a decent power level, I would expect the CM 4221 to pick it up.


OTOH, if your stations are only 10 to 15 miles, a Zenith/Philips Silver Sensor indoor antenna combined a rabbit ears may get them all. I suspect your problem is that the CM 3018 is the wrong antenna for your situation.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FreeBaGeL* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, haven't been able to get word on whether or not this will work so maybe I'll just go ahead and give it the old college try with a CM4228 and CM7777. Where's the best place ot purchase these?



Well, no one replied, so maybe you should try to specify what your situation is again. Looking at your zip (32607), you have nearby stations with the Jacksonville stations around 66 miles away. A CM4228 with a CM 7777 might get the Jacksonville stations, but the the signal may well overload on the local stations. Perhaps 2 antennas with a switch? Looking up the NBC station in Jacksonville in the FCC database ( http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html ), it is listed to be broadcasting digitally on VHF 13 at 25 KW which is full power for VHF. So you may be able to get it at 66 miles in the flat terrain of Florida with a rooftop setup.


----------



## Buckeyefan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What is your zip code? The CM 3018 is a directional medium to long range antenna with a narrow pickup beam pattern. The key is the spread in azimuth and distances for local stations. The CM 4228 is also a long range directional antenna. If the stations are mostly within 15 miles, the CM 4221 has a much wider spread in azimuth. Checking Columbia, SC I see there is an ABC station at digital VHF 8 which is a drawback for selecting the CM 4221. But if it is under 20 miles and at a decent power level, I would expect the CM 4221 to pick it up.
> 
> 
> OTOH, if your stations are only 10 to 15 miles, a Zenith/Philips Silver Sensor indoor antenna combined a rabbit ears may get them all. I suspect your problem is that the CM 3018 is the wrong antenna for your situation.



My zip code is 43230. The stations are in the general vicinity (southwest to downtown Columbus), but tweaking the antenna a few degrees brings in certain stations crystal clear, while others get "fuzzy."


I never thought a large rooftop antenna would be too much, or too directional being as close as I am. Rabbit ears were worthless for most stations. The digital stations would come in but freeze now and then. At least now ABC and Fox, the two stations I don't get on TMC in HD do come in clear. I was just hoping to pick up several PBS stations, as well as all national networks perfectly clear in HD.


There are some tall trees off in the distance in the path, but since it's fall, I can't imagine it's making that much of a difference.


Here's a few pics of the antenna:
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...11-6-06021.jpg 
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...11-6-06018.jpg


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Buckeyefan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> After mounting my CM3018 to my roof at the gable end - probably 26 feet in the air unobstructed from downtown Columbus, Ohio, I'm finding the reception to be horrific.
> 
> 
> I'm at a point where I'm thinking the antenna I have isn't the right one for HD.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance. Confused in Columbus



I'd say that antenna should work fine. What else might be causing your problem? Are there any FM stations within one mile of you? If so, you need an FM trap. Are you using a preamp? If so, disconnect it. What does an analog station such as channel 28 look like? Is it clear, snowy, or ghosty?


----------



## Buckeyefan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'd say that antenna should work fine. What else might be causing your problem? Are there any FM stations within one mile of you? If so, you need an FM trap. Are you using a preamp? If so, disconnect it. What does an analog station such as channel 28 look like? Is it clear, snowy, or ghosty?



There's no preamp, just RG6 straight to the tv. The RG6 is 100', and I need almost all of it. I'm wondering how much dB loss I'm experiencing. I don't think there are any FM stations nearby - definitely not within a mile. Channel 28 isn't perfect, but comes in decent. I'd rate it 75 out of 100 for analog.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Buckeyefan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My zip code is 43230. The stations are in the general vicinity (southwest to downtown Columbus), but tweaking the antenna a few degrees brings in certain stations crystal clear, while others get "fuzzy."
> 
> 
> I never thought a large rooftop antenna would be too much, or too directional being as close as I am. Rabbit ears were worthless for most stations. The digital stations would come in but freeze now and then. At least now ABC and Fox, the two stations I don't get on TMC in HD do come in clear. I was just hoping to pick up several PBS stations, as well as all national networks perfectly clear in HD.



Are you looking at the analog stations or just the digital stations? You should not get "fuzzy" pictures with digital. Digital dropouts, yes, but not "fuzzy".


Plugging your zip i & 100 feet in height (to make up for variances in your zip) in the options set at antennaweb, I get:

* yellow - vhf WSYX-DT 6.1 ABC COLUMBUS OH 233° 10.4 13

* yellow - uhf WWHO-DT 53.1 CW CHILLICOTHE OH 208° 33.6 46

* yellow - uhf WTTE-DT 28.1 FOX COLUMBUS OH 233° 10.4 36

* yellow - uhf WCMH-DT 4.1 NBC COLUMBUS OH 245° 9.3 14

* yellow - uhf WBNS-DT 10.1 CBS COLUMBUS OH 245° 9.3 21

* yellow - uhf WOSU-DT 34.1 PBS COLUMBUS OH 350° 8.5 38


All of these qualify as yellow or for a small multi-directional. The CM 3018 is a large directional VHF/UHF antenna which falls into the "purple" category, although the Cm 3018 is not among the better of the large directionals. BTW, the last number in each row is the digital broadcast channel which states that you have 1 upper VHF 13 channel and the rest are UHF. No need for a big low VHF channels 2-6 antenna for your digital stations.


In the stations in the antennaweb list, you have a spread of 142 degrees in azimuth. Except for WWHO-DT in Chillicothe, the stations are close, so one would expect most of them to come in on even a very directional antenna as the UHF part of the CM 3018. But you need a medium range antenna with a wide pickup pattern with good response for VHF 13 and UHF, not a large directional VHF/UHF antenna. You may have a multi-path issue, but I would get a more appropriate antenna first before worrying about that. The CM 4221 4 Bay or the AntennasDirect DB-2 should work much better than the CM 3018 and be a lot easier to put up on the roof. Heck, an indoor antenna should get all your close stations. Get a more suitable antenna and then determine if you need a pre-amp for the 100' RG-6 cable run or to get the more distant stations.


----------



## Buckeyefan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are you looking at the analog stations or just the digital stations? You should not get "fuzzy" pictures with digital. Digital dropouts, yes, but not "fuzzy".
> 
> 
> Plugging your zip i & 100 feet in height (to make up for variances in your zip) in the options set at antennaweb, I get:
> 
> * yellow - vhf WSYX-DT 6.1 ABC COLUMBUS OH 233° 10.4 13
> 
> * yellow - uhf WWHO-DT 53.1 CW CHILLICOTHE OH 208° 33.6 46
> 
> * yellow - uhf WTTE-DT 28.1 FOX COLUMBUS OH 233° 10.4 36
> 
> * yellow - uhf WCMH-DT 4.1 NBC COLUMBUS OH 245° 9.3 14
> 
> * yellow - uhf WBNS-DT 10.1 CBS COLUMBUS OH 245° 9.3 21
> 
> * yellow - uhf WOSU-DT 34.1 PBS COLUMBUS OH 350° 8.5 38
> 
> 
> All of these qualify as yellow or for a small multi-directional. The CM 3018 is a large directional VHF/UHF antenna which falls into the "purple" category, although the Cm 3018 is not among the better of the large directionals. BTW, the last number in each row is the digital broadcast channel which states that you have 1 upper VHF 13 channel and the rest are UHF. No need for a big low VHF channels 2-6 antenna for your digital stations.
> 
> 
> In the stations in the antennaweb list, you have a spread of 142 degrees in azimuth. Except for WWHO-DT in Chillicothe, the stations are close, so one would expect most of them to come in on even a very directional antenna as the UHF part of the CM 3018. But you need a medium range antenna with a wide pickup pattern with good response for VHF 13 and UHF, not a large directional VHF/UHF antenna. You may have a multi-path issue, but I would get a more appropriate antenna first before worrying about that. The CM 4221 4 Bay or the AntennasDirect DB-2 should work much better than the CM 3018 and be a lot easier to put up on the roof. Heck, an indoor antenna should get all your close stations. Get a more suitable antenna and then determine if you need a pre-amp for the 100' RG-6 cable run or to get the more distant stations.



The digital stations are coming in nicely this evening. I'm assuming the signal is stronger during the evening, on a clear night. They are the 6 you listed. All look outstanding right now.


The others that I'm surprised aren't coming in as clear (analog), say, as SD cable, are as follows:

Ok picture (approaching SD cable):

4

4.2

6.2

10

28

28.2

34.2

34.3


The following are coming in lousy (fuzzy):

6

8

10.2

17

19

23

48

51

53


Are my expectations too high? I probably would have simply installed a basic UHF antenna had I known the VHF analog stations would have been so tempermental to exact direction. Is this typical of VHF?


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Buckeyefan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The digital stations are coming in nicely this evening. I'm assuming the signal is stronger during the evening, on a clear night. They are the 6 you listed. All look outstanding right now.
> 
> 
> The others that I'm surprised aren't coming in as clear (analog), say, as SD cable, are as follows:
> 
> Ok picture (approaching SD cable):
> 
> 4
> 
> 4.2
> 
> 6.2
> 
> 10
> 
> 28
> 
> 28.2
> 
> 34.2
> 
> 34.3
> 
> 
> The following are coming in lousy (fuzzy):
> 
> ...
> 
> 10.2



The x.2 and x.3 are the digital sub-channels. If they are "fuzzy", then these presumably highly compressed SD sub-channels. They will not look like HD, but should be 4:3 pillarboxed. Are these weather or news sub-channels? Is one of them The Tube music video SD sub-channel which is carried in a number of markets?


As for the analog channels, you have a very directional antenna which has poor gain for the stations which are off-axis.


----------



## Buckeyefan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The x.2 and x.3 are the digital sub-channels. If they are "fuzzy", then these presumably highly compressed SD sub-channels. They will not look like HD, but should be 4:3 pillarboxed. Are these weather or news sub-channels? Is one of them The Tube music video SD sub-channel which is carried in a number of markets?
> 
> 
> As for the analog channels, you have a very directional antenna which has poor gain for the stations which are off-axis.



They are wide screen, one is a weather channel and one is The Tube. It plays old school music from the 70' and 80's.


I guess I need a rotor for the other VHF channels.


----------



## FreeBaGeL

So where is the best place to purchase a channel master 4228 antenna?


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Buckeyefan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> They are wide screen, one is a weather channel and one is The Tube. It plays old school music from the 70' and 80's.
> 
> 
> I guess I need a rotor for the other VHF channels.



The Tube is not wide screen, but is a 4:3 SD program on the two OTA stations that I get it from. I don't know of any stations that are sending out widescreen SD on their additional SD sub-channels. Check the zoom settings for the OTA SD channels on your TV and/or STB if you have an external ATSC receiver box. Chances are that you are stretching or zooming in for the SD channels. Cycle it back to normal or whatever your particular TV/STB calls it. A zoom for window-boxed 16:9 SD material will make the channels look more "fuzzy".


----------



## tyromark

FreeBaGel - You can get one incl. S&H for $63 from warrenelectronics.com

That's about as cheap as it can be found anywhere, and I've gotten very good mail-order service from them (incl. a return) in the past.


----------



## Buckeyefan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The Tube is not wide screen, but is a 4:3 SD program on the two OTA stations that I get it from. I don't know of any stations that are sending out widescreen SD on their additional SD sub-channels. Check the zoom settings for the OTA SD channels on your TV and/or STB if you have an external ATSC receiver box. Chances are that you are stretching or zooming in for the SD channels. Cycle it back to normal or whatever your particular TV/STB calls it. A zoom for window-boxed 16:9 SD material will make the channels look more "fuzzy".



You were right, it was on "full screen."


So is there anything I can do to pick up the VHF/SD stations better without hooking up a rotor? I do enjoy the free SD stations that I assume I might not get with the 4228.


----------



## gregmb

I've been reading this thread, and decided to try my luck for some antenna advice.


I'm interested in DTV. And putting it in my antic even if it isn't the best thing to do.


My house sit a top a hill and has no visible obstruction,

except of course the Rocky Mountians to the West.










Attic is about 3 stories up.


Location:

Fort Collins CO 80524


AnntennaWeb has the following:


* yellow - vhf KKTU-DT 11.1 ABC CHEYENNE WY 209° 8.6 11

yellow - uhf KFCT 22 FOX FORT COLLINS CO 80° 14.5 22

green - uhf KDEN 25 IND LONGMONT CO 155° 39.0 25

lt green - uhf K48CG 48 TBN LOVELAND CO 210° 8.4 48

* red - uhf KDEN-DT 29.1 IND LONGMONT CO 155° 39.0 29

* red - uhf KPXC-DT 43 i DENVER CO TBD 175° 67.2 43

red - vhf KRMA 6 PBS DENVER CO 177° 63.5 6

red - vhf KMGH 7 ABC DENVER CO 177° 63.5 7

red - uhf KDVR 31 FOX DENVER CO 177° 63.5 31

blue - uhf KDEO-LP 23 REL AURORA CO 175° 67.2 23

blue - uhf KMAS-LP 63 TEL DENVER CO 175° 67.2 63

blue - uhf KPXC 59 i DENVER CO 175° 67.2 59

blue - vhf KBDI 12 PBS BROOMFIELD CO 188° 69.7 12

blue - uhf K54IK 54 IND FORT COLLINS CO 209° 8.6 54

blue - vhf KGWN 5 CBS CHEYENNE WY 358° 31.9 5

blue - uhf KLWY 27 FOX CHEYENNE WY 10° 30.0 27

* violet - uhf KFCT-DT 21.1 FOX FORT COLLINS CO 80° 14.5 21

* violet - uhf KDVR-DT 31.1 FOX DENVER CO 177° 63.5 32


I've been thinking about the 4228 every one seems to think is a good one, but don't know if this is over kill.

For my situation.


I like to avoid a rotor if possible, since I have no easy way of routing rotor control cable to the attic.


I also have have a run of approx 200 ft of RG-6.


What do people suggest?


Thanks


----------



## TallGuy

Quick question - maybe a dumb one, I don't know - I could swear that I read someplace once about specialized antennas that are tuned to a specific frequency. So if you got channel 42 from the opposite direction as your other stations, you could point a UHF/VHF antenna to the north, and a channel 42-specific antenna to the south, and join them and get the best of both worlds.


If this exists, I can't find where to buy them. Was I smoking something, or are there actual antennas you could buy online made for a given frequency?


----------



## Rick0725

You would need the following to combine a uhf channel into your current system


appropriate uhf antenna (does not need to be channel specific)


cm jointenna tuned for ch 42


----------



## TallGuy

that's it - not an antenna but the antenna joiner for a specific frequency - hard to search in google without the right name - thanks!


----------



## hdtv00

Can you use an outdoor one indoors. I dont care how big it is or stupid it looks.


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hdtv00* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can you use an outdoor one indoors. I dont care how big it is or stupid it looks.



Sure! I used to do it all the time when, uh, decor was not a big deal!









....jc


----------



## bourmb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hdtv00* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can you use an outdoor one indoors. I dont care how big it is or stupid it looks.



I would recommend mounting a CM 4228 on the wall.


----------



## KeithAR2002




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bourmb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would recommend mounting a CM 4228 on the wall.




That's exactly what Im planning on doing...well I'm just going to have it on a tripod, but I don't think it'll look bad


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bourmb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would recommend mounting a CM 4228 on the wall.



Yea, I used to hang a yagi from the ceiling with fishing line.







I had another line from the one end to a wall so I could swing it. Pretty racy. Well...







back then...

....jc


----------



## bourmb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KeithAR2002* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That's exactly what Im planning on doing...well I'm just going to have it on a tripod, but I don't think it'll look bad



You could always pass it off as a form of an art sculpture.







You have given me some ideas, now. I think I am going to go home tonight and order a 108" fringe antenna for my dining room...


----------



## GSA53

Hello, I just finished installing a CM OTA antenna, with great HD results. But now I am concerned about how I grounded the system. I ran a splitter off the main transmission line. One coax lead will go up to the Sat multi-switch, and attach to a diplexor, so I can use the same line to feed the upstairs TV. The installer grounded the Sat system to a water outlet in the back yard.


The other part of the split goes around the base of the house to the side where it will enter the basement and feed the other TVs. This happens to be where the phone company buried a earth ground for their lines. I installed a grounding block at this point and attached a copper grounding wire and clamped the other end to the earth ground rod on top of the original phone company clamp. From the block I will run a line into the house to a distribution amp.


Does this seem to properly ground the Antenna?


One other question. The antenna was installed on a all-brick chimney which was built from the floor in the basement up to above the roof line of the house. I didnt ground the mast. I was thinking that the brick couldn't conduct electricity, and it was buried in the ground anyway.


How far off is this thinking? I am sure someone with experience in these installs will bash my thinking here. But I hope to learn from the experience. Thanks in advance!


----------



## Tower Guy

I have been trying to receive DTV stations from adjacent markets. I am 8 miles from the Albany antenna farm, with nothing in the way. I have a Channel Master 4228 at 125' fed with 400' of 3/4" hardline. (8 db loss on UHF) Due to overload, I have been unable to use a preamp. My first attemp was two years ago using a UHF only Winegard AP-4700. The HDP-269 was not available at that time.


Last week I got a HDP-269 and assumed that it would work without overload. I was wrong. It actiually worked worse than the UHF only AP-4700. The 4228 picked up too many VHF signals that overload the preamp. The result was worse reception than with no preamp.


Next I used a VHF/UHF band Splitter/Joiner as a filter to attentuate the VHF signals with the 4228 connected to the UHF port. It helped, but the reception was no better than with no preamp.


I have learned that the HDP-269 cannot be reccomended with a 4228 unless the antenna is much further than 8 miles from the TV stations.


I'm guessing that those who have the 91XG may not experience the same problem because the 91XG is not very good at VHF reception.


For anyone who would like to compare their situation with mine, the Albany transmitters include;


WRGB channel 6 analog 93 KW ERP

WXXA-DT channel 7 DTV 9 KW ERP

WTEN channel 10 316 KW ERP

WNYT-DT channel 12 9 KW ERP

WNYA-CA channel 15 150 KW ERP

WMHT channel 17 2,630 KW ERP

WXXA channel 23 3,675 KW ERP

WTEN-DT channel 26 700 KW ERP

WMHT-DT channel 34 325 KW ERP

WRGB-DT channel 39 600 KW ERP

WCWN-DT channel 43 676 KW ERP

WCWN channel 45 2,950 KW ERP

W52DH channel 52 40 KW ERP

W58?? channel 58 20 KW ERP


There are about 6 full-power FM stations at the same location.


WNYT channel 13 analog is aimed away from the antenna farm.


The overload occurs even when my antenna is aimed away from the antenna farm.


Next I will build a filter from channel 26 through channel 38 to install prior to the preamp. That will attenuate all the strongest analog transmitters.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have been trying to receive DTV stations from adjacent markets. I am 8 miles from the Albany antenna farm, with nothing in the way. I have a Channel Master 4228 at 125' fed with 400' of 3/4" hardline. (8 db loss on UHF) Due to overload, I have been unable to use a preamp.
> 
> 
> Next I used a VHF/UHF band Splitter/Joiner as a filter to attentuate the VHF signals with the 4228 connected to the UHF port. It helped, but the reception was no better than with no preamp.
> 
> 
> I have learned that the HDP-269 cannot be reccomended with a 4228 unless the antenna is much further than 8 miles from the TV stations.
> 
> 
> For anyone who would like to compare their situation with mine, the Albany transmitters include;
> 
> 
> WRGB channel 6 analog 93 KW ERP
> 
> WXXA-DT channel 7 DTV 9 KW ERP
> 
> WTEN channel 10 316 KW ERP
> 
> WNYT-DT channel 12 9 KW ERP
> 
> WNYA-CA channel 15 150 KW ERP
> 
> WMHT channel 17 2,630 KW ERP
> 
> WXXA channel 23 3,675 KW ERP
> 
> WTEN-DT channel 26 700 KW ERP
> 
> WMHT-DT channel 34 325 KW ERP
> 
> WRGB-DT channel 39 600 KW ERP
> 
> WCWN-DT channel 43 676 KW ERP
> 
> WCWN channel 45 2,950 KW ERP
> 
> W52DH channel 52 40 KW ERP
> 
> W58?? channel 58 20 KW ERP
> 
> 
> There are about 6 full-power FM stations at the same location.
> 
> 
> WNYT channel 13 analog is aimed away from the antenna farm.
> 
> 
> The overload occurs even when my antenna is aimed away from the antenna farm.
> 
> 
> Next I will build a filter from channel 26 through channel 38 to install prior to the preamp. That will attenuate all the strongest analog transmitters.



You are in the mountains, eight miles from your local broadcast tower farm. You had a reception tower installed that is 125 feet tall (or is that 125 feet above sea level?), and yet its downlead is 400 feet long, meaning that you put the tower up on higher ground, meaning that you had professional assistance with this project and you knew you were in a horrendous reception situation to begin with. What happened to your installer? Did he tell you this is a lost cause and abandon ship?


And you have a UHF-only antenna on this tower, making it poorly suitable for receiving your local PBS-DT 13.1, which is presently on VHF 12, and your local Fox DT 23.1, which is presently on channel 7, but which will surely revert to UHF after the transition because of the local channel 7 conflicts.


According to Antennaweb, the four of your six local DT channels are UHF (12, 26, 34, 39, and 43)..


Are you getting those four reliably?


Do you have a rotor installed?


There isn't a snowball's chance in hell that any kind of amplifier will improve your Albany reception. I also see that there are a few PBS and independent analog stations off in other directions at distances ranging from 40 to 80 miles away. TBN, PBS, and and ABC affiliate in Adams, Mass, but I don't even know if they are yet broadcasting digitally.


Is there any way for you, yourself to climb this tower to change your antenna? If so, then you might tend to improve your reception of 13.1/12DT and of 23.1/7DT by adding a Winegard or Antennacraft 7/13 antenna, which is fairly small.


Realistically, you need satellite TV for your HDTV local channel reception. If your market is not going to be so-served in the foreseeable future, then your only plausible alternative will be to set up a New York City address


----------



## Rick0725

Towerguy is 8 miles from the albany towers and likes to also receive distant signals.


He is trying to amplify alittle to improve distant reception but can not because of signal overload caused by amplification with his close proximity to the albany market towers...even with the hdp269 which is of lower gain (12db) with extremely high overload tolerance (300,000+).


The 91xg receives high band vhf rather well actually (ch9 here). Even receives ch5 without noise. which surprised me.


I installed my preamps at the grounding block on the ground and not at the antennas.


for two reasons...so I did not have to go to the roof every time I want to experiment and to take the edge off some of the signal. I did experience some overload but not enough to affect digital response... mostly analog.


going to purchase an ap 4700 tomorrow morning, experiment and compare results with the 2 hdp 269's I use here.


----------



## texasbrit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gregmb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've been thinking about the 4228 every one seems to think is a good one, but don't know if this is over kill.
> 
> For my situation.
> 
> 
> I like to avoid a rotor if possible, since I have no easy way of routing rotor control cable to the attic.
> 
> 
> I also have have a run of approx 200 ft of RG-6.
> 
> 
> What do people suggest?
> 
> 
> Thanks



There is no way the CM4228 is an overkill if your antennaweb numbers are correct. You have two of your digital stations rated by antennaweb as violet and two more at red, with two of your stations at over 60 miles - you are definitely in a fringe reception area. You also don't have an NBC or CBS digital listed at all. If I play around with antennaweb for your zip by increasing the height, I can get it to see CBS in Denver but still no NBC. I am not sure but maybe the NBC station is still not on full power.

You can find a lot more Ft Collins info in the Northern Colorado/se Wyoming thread here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...hlight=cheyenne 

I suggest you post there and see what other people are receiving, and with what antenna.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GSA53* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does this seem to properly ground the Antenna?
> 
> 
> One other question. The antenna was installed on a all-brick chimney which was built from the floor in the basement up to above the roof line of the house. I didnt ground the mast. I was thinking that the brick couldn't conduct electricity, and it was buried in the ground anyway.
> 
> 
> How far off is this thinking? I am sure someone with experience in these installs will bash my thinking here. But I hope to learn from the experience. Thanks in advance!



Search this thread for grounding and posts by AVS'er Greywolf:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=381623


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> According to Antennaweb, the four of your six local DT channels are UHF (12, 26, 34, 39, and 43)..
> 
> 
> Are you getting those four reliably?
> 
> 
> Do you have a rotor installed?



I have two antennas, one on the roof for the Albany stations and the one on the tower for DX.


The Albany stations are fine. I can get Adams, MA without the tower. PBS in Rutland is fine. WKTV-DT in Utica is also easy. Without the preamp I can also get a number of analog stations, both Fox and ABC from Utica, NBCs from White River Junction, VT and Hartford, CT. Channels 3 from either Burlington, VT or Hartford, CT were visable when I had an all channel antenna on the tower.


Yes, there is a rotator. I put up the tower myself. It is 120' of Rohn 45. The UHF filter that I used is not a commercial UHF splitter/Joiner, but a high pass filter that I built myself. It's a three element Pi section filter with a cutoff of 450 mHz. The capacitor is 5 pf, the two inductors are .015 uH each.


Now that the Burlington, VT DTV stations are up on MT. Mansfield, I was trying to get them. So far, no luck.


My real quest is for WWNY-DT in Watertown, NY on channel 35. I am hoping to see the Buffalo Bills when the local CBS station carries the Jets. WTVH-DT in Syracuse is closer, but there's an LPTV station on the same channel that is too strong.


I am not interested in playing "moving" games with satellite TV.


I was simply sharing my experiences with the highly rated HDP-269 preamp. It's not as good as it's made out to be.


Note to Rick0725: The HDP-269 with a UHF joiner should still outperform a AP-4700. The optimum should be two HDP-269's, one for VHF and one for UHF.


----------



## Rick0725




> Quote:
> The HDP-269 with a UHF joiner should still outperform a AP-4700. The optimum should be two HDP-269's, one for VHF and one for UHF.



I am currently using 2 hdp-269 preamps, one for uhf and one for vhf.


I filter off the uhf on the hd8200p but never thought of filtering off the vhf on the 91xg.


Im going to try an ap4700 uhf preamp and filter off the vhf with another cm0549 on the 91xg for the heck of it latter this week.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am currently using 2 hdp-269 preamps, one for uhf and one for vhf.
> 
> 
> I filter off the uhf on the hd8200p but never thought of filtering off the vhf on the 91xg.
> 
> 
> Im going to try an ap4700 uhf preamp and filter off the vhf with another cm0549 on the 91xg for the heck of it latter this week.



The AP-4700 has the filter built into it.


----------



## Rick0725

From my experiences, the AP4700 passes vhf and does not filter it (other brand of amps do filter).


Since the amp passes vhf and the 91xg has reasonable gain on high band vhf thought filtering the vhf off the 91xg would lessen vhf/uhf band interferences when I recombine inside?


----------



## goldrich

Tower Guy,


FWIW, I am a TV/DTV DXer who lives 5 miles from the Indy antenna farm, including one local tower just 3 miles away (WTHR-13 @ 316 kW & WTHR-DT 46 @ 1000 kW). My antenna setup includes two Triax Unix 100 wideband UHF antennas horizontally stacked @ 30 feet (not on a 120 foot tower...wow!) with the CM 7775 preamp and an Antennacraft high-band VHF antenna @ 27 feet with a Motorola Signal Booster. Most of the posters here would definitely not advise the CM 7775 in my strong RF location, but I have minimal overload issues. Meanwhile, every VHF preamp I've tried has created way too many overload issues. That is why I'm using the signal booster, which doesn't overload and definitely helps with weak DTV signals.


Here's a link to a website where I've collected screen shots of some of the various DTV stations (100-plus miles) I've been able to receive (at least for a few seconds). The site also includes a pic of my antenna setup. http://new.photos.yahoo.com/goldrich...60762323367709 


YMMV, but at least this antenna setup works quite well for my highly-saturated signal area. The stacked UHF antenna array is very directional and greatly helps to null a lot of the strong local signals, much better than other antennas I've experimented with. It was designed and previously used by MAX HD in Greensburg, IN (halfway between Indy and Cincinnati). http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...TowerAntennas/ 


BTW, after trying a number of various STBs over the past five years, I believe one of the best STBs for DXing is the RCA ATSC11.


Best wishes in coming up with a workable antenna setup for your location.


Steve


----------



## rsv1000

Well I received the CM4228 Friday and got it set-up in the attic. I just aimed where antennaweb said and hooked it up and there it was. Ch 19 coming in clear.

Thanks for the advice. The only other thing that I was wondering is, what could I try to pick up a stronger signal? It is 65-75% now, is it worth trying to improve or is this strong enough? I am about 60 miles away and my antenna is in the attic.

What do you think?


----------



## jeffloby

That is a great signal for being in the attic at that distance.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *goldrich* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Tower Guy,
> 
> 
> FWIW, I am a TV/DTV DXer who lives 5 miles from the Indy antenna farm, including one local tower just 3 miles away (WTHR-13 @ 316 kW & WTHR-DT 46 @ 1000 kW). My antenna setup includes two Triax Unix 100 wideband UHF antennas horizontally stacked @ 30 feet (not on a 120 foot tower...wow!) with the CM 7775 preamp and an Antennacraft high-band VHF antenna @ 27 feet with a Motorola Signal Booster. Most of the posters here would definitely not advise the CM 7775 in my strong RF location, but I have minimal overload issues. Meanwhile, every VHF preamp I've tried has created way too many overload issues. That is why I'm using the signal booster, which doesn't overload and definitely helps with weak DTV signals.
> 
> 
> Here's a link to a website where I've collected screen shots of some of the various DTV stations (100-plus miles) I've been able to receive (at least for a few seconds). The site also includes a pic of my antenna setup. http://new.photos.yahoo.com/goldrich...60762323367709
> 
> 
> YMMV, but at least this antenna setup works quite well for my highly-saturated signal area. The stacked UHF antenna array is very directional and greatly helps to null a lot of the strong local signals, much better than other antennas I've experimented with. It was designed and previously used by MAX HD in Greensburg, IN (halfway between Indy and Cincinnati). http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...TowerAntennas/
> 
> 
> BTW, after trying a number of various STBs over the past five years, I believe one of the best STBs for DXing is the RCA ATSC11.
> 
> 
> Best wishes in coming up with a workable antenna setup for your location.
> 
> 
> Steve



Hi Steve;


Thanks for your story. In addition to a narrow filter, I'm also considering a Wade-Delhi 8' dish.


I know a bit about WTHR. David Letterman was replaced by Bob Gregory back in the early 70's. The GM in the 90's was Mike Corken, now retired.


The interesting part of this story is that DTV reception will get much easier when all the analog stations go off the air!


My TV is a 34" Zenith CRT TV built in 2002. I am more interested in overlaod characteristics than the multipath improvements in the 5th generation DTV chips. The multipath with the antenna at 125' is minimal.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> From my experiences, the AP4700 passes vhf and does not filter it (other brand of amps do filter).
> 
> 
> Since the amp passes vhf and the 91xg has reasonable gain on high band vhf thought filtering the vhf off the 91xg would lessen vhf/uhf band interferences when I recombine inside?




Let me know how it works out.


I am assumming that filter in the AP-4700 that bypasses the VHF would also keep the VHF signals from overloading the amplifer. Yet, my experience with the HDP-269 has shown that odd things can happen.


----------



## FreeBaGeL

Anyone know anything about the Channel Master 3020? I'm in Gainesville, FL (zip 32607) and was going to pick up the CM4228 which does 60 miles UHF for locals, but we don't have NBC HD OTA here and I noticed that Jax's NBC station is VHF (3020 says it will do 100 miles for VHF). Would the 3020 be a better choice? Jax's NBC doesn't even show up on antennaweb but it is within 100 miles. Lots of trees around though.


----------



## TheIceMaster

Hi.


I am currently using a cheap antenna (AV-891) with built-in preamp and rotor. I have no way of knowing the quality of either but it seems to be quite allright. However, I would like to use it indoors for the winter but the signal gets too weak for a good reception (barely).


My TV seems to needs ~17-18db for a stable lock. However, I am currently receiving most signals with a strenght of around 13-14db (I have a spliter connecting my TV + a DViCO FusionHDTV5 to get the db readout). I seem to have a little headroom if I could amply the signal as a whole since, if I aim the antenna correctly, I can reduce the strongest channel to around 24-25db while having the 13-14 for the rest.


Since I am a dummy in the world of amplification, what are my best options to give it a little push to the ~20db+ range (if at all possible) for a more stable connection?


Note: I'll be erecting a tower and replace this antenna with something with good back rejection next year so changing it now is not an option.


Thank you in avance,


TiM


----------



## gregmb

Thanks for the reply.

I tried the link you posted however something must be wrong, since

I get the 404 error that the page is not found.


Could you repost that link is again.

Thanks

Greg


----------



## TheIceMaster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> replace the antenna with something better . the antenna has a built in amp (34 db) and adding another amp most likely may not improve the situation.
> 
> 
> A-Neutronics AV-891...I joke around about that antenna (piece of garbage)...someone actually purchased one...unbelievable.



As I said before, not replacing it right now and simply asked if it was possible to add an amp to give it a little humph that I need for stability. The amp isn't actually 34db, it's the combination of the amp + antenna. I'll have to ask for separate specs to see if replacing the preamp is an option (the one I would be using next years after my tower mount).


Regarding the «Piece of Garbage» comment, have you tried it? I know people feel its crap but considering that I am currently at 70miles from the tower and indoors, I feel its doing a pretty good job at almost locking on to a station considering the fact that I cannot really aim at the tower while indoors due to the orientation of the house (no window opening in that direction). When I put it outside of the house on the balcony about 10 feets above ground level, I am able to get all the channels perfectly at +25db except WVNY (RF13) which alot of people on the Montreal area are having problems with even with dedicated RF13 only antennas! I wonder how its a «piece of garbage» as you said for 30$ (antenna + preamp + rotor) but the only part where I agree with your comment is the quality of the component: lots of plastic and, if put outdoors, I woud really recommend some silicone around the joints of the plastic boxes to prevent a short!


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rsv1000* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well I received the CM4228 Friday and got it set-up in the attic. I just aimed where antennaweb said and hooked it up and there it was. Ch 19 coming in clear.
> 
> Thanks for the advice. The only other thing that I was wondering is, what could I try to pick up a stronger signal? It is 65-75% now, is it worth trying to improve or is this strong enough? I am about 60 miles away and my antenna is in the attic.
> 
> What do you think?



Don't go by the number. If the signal is has no freezes or significant pixelization, the actual strength is not material.


----------



## KeithAR2002

So what do all of you think about hanging a 4228 on the wall? Im in the process of moving to Jackson, MS, and tonight I was experimenting with the 4228 being against the wall... unfortunately my wall faces opposite of the transmitters, but what would happen if I had the front of the antenna towards the transmitters, but right against the wall? In my opinion, the 4228 really isn't a bad looking antenna. It could easily pass as a work of art







Would I do better just having it on a tripod, as I was discussing earlier? A user posted a photo of his 4228 on a tripod next to his television... it was back in July and I can't find the post now... but what are some of your suggestions? I personally think it would look better on the wall... but the tripod idea wouldn't look too bad, either. Could I have some feedback?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FreeBaGeL* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyone know anything about the Channel Master 3020? I'm in Gainesville, FL (zip 32607) and was going to pick up the CM4228 which does 60 miles UHF for locals, but we don't have NBC HD OTA here and I noticed that Jax's NBC station is VHF (3020 says it will do 100 miles for VHF). Would the 3020 be a better choice? Jax's NBC doesn't even show up on antennaweb but it is within 100 miles. Lots of trees around though.



The 3020 has a high band VHF (channels 7-13) gain of 8.6 db. To go 100 miles you are going to need all the gain that you can get.


The Winegard antenna line does better on those channels. See the HD7084P. It's gain on high V is over 10 db.


You might also consider a Channel Master 4221 for the local UHF stations and an Antennacraft Y10 7-13 for JAX. Add the two together with a VHF/UHF band seperator/joiner. That will also allow you to aim the two antennas in different directions without using a rotator.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FreeBaGeL* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyone know anything about the Channel Master 3020? I'm in Gainesville, FL (zip 32607) and was going to pick up the CM4228 which does 60 miles UHF for locals, but we don't have NBC HD OTA here and I noticed that Jax's NBC station is VHF (3020 says it will do 100 miles for VHF). Would the 3020 be a better choice? Jax's NBC doesn't even show up on antennaweb but it is within 100 miles. Lots of trees around though.



From the center of your zip code, the stations in Jacksonville are 67 miles away. (I plugged in a height of 1000 feet in the antennaweb options to get the Jacksonville stations to show up). To have a chance of getting the Jacksonville stations, you need a top performing antenna and the CM 3020 is not regarded as such. The NBC station in Jackonville,WTLV-DT, is digitally broadcasting on VHF 13. The Cm 4228 might get it, but you should look into the dedicated long range VHF antennas.


I agree with Towerguy's recommendations. One antenna for the Jacksonville stations - though I would suggest you might as well try to get all of the major stations which means upper VHF and UHF if you are going to the trouble of getting WTLV-DT - and the CM 4221 for the local stations. You could put in a A/B switch or add in a 2nd ATSC tuner if you are up to running 2 RG-6 cables into the house. A number of choices here, but skip the CM3020.


----------



## gtadell

Having some recent signal strength issues and want to re-integrate y CM pre-amp.

Current setup is this: CM4228 in attic, cabled out of attic to satellite on roof where singal is then diplexed into my family room with one of the satellite feeds and then split back out via a diplexer. I then split the antenna feed into my HR10-250 Directv HD tuner and direct to my HD TV. This has worked well for about a year but am having some recent troubles with a low signal on some stations. I am about 30 miles from the stations.


My question is how to add the pre-amp in the family room and pass the power to the antenna. I bought a new diplexer that passes power on one side. Do I put this in the family room with the pre-amp or does this need to go on the roof at where I split off to the satellite and attic antenna?


Any advice is appreciated.


----------



## greywolf

A preamp normally comes in two parts, the amplifier and the power supply. The amplifier is best put as close to the antenna as possible. You want to amplify the best signal you can, not the one that has been degraded some by loss over the length of the coax. Then the problem becomes avoiding mixing the power from the satellite receivers with the power from the preamp's power supply. Some preamps can actually use the satellite receiver's power output to the LNBs instead of a power supply. The diplexer at the antenna and dish connection would be an all port power passing type in that case. The receiver's power goes to the LNBs and the preamp. The receiver will typically put out less power than the usual preamp power supply so a preamp designed to use receiver power is a good idea. The receiver output is 13VDC when requesting even numbered transponders and 18VDC when requesting odds while a typical preamp power supply is 24VDC.


To use a more powerful preamp with its own power supply, again the preamp is to be placed near the antenna. The preamp's power supply must be placed between the top diplexer and the antenna. Both diplexers need to be single port power passing types.


DirecTV will be moving all HD programming to Ka band MPEG4 channels probably sometime in the next couple of years. The equipment for that uses the B Band at 250-750MHz which conflicts with OTA signals. The B-Band converter that is normally placed on the receiver will also have to be above the top diplexer when using Ka band equipment. The H20-600, H20-100, and HR20-700 already have such capability and come with B-Band converters.


----------



## slksc

I need an antenna to receive only one channel (my local ABC station) that won't license its HD signal for TimeWarner cable. It's 15 miles away, at 358°. I was thinking of using an external antenna mounted about 12 feet high on the side of my deck that faces due north. Any suggestions?


Another question: on my Panasonic 58PX600U, I use a Cablecard for cable channels. What would be the best way to switch between the cable feed and the external antenna?


Many thanks.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *slksc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I need an antenna to receive only one channel (my local ABC station) that won't license its HD signal for TimeWarner cable. It's 15 miles away, at 358°. I was thinking of using an external antenna mounted about 12 feet high on the side of my deck that faces due north. Any suggestions?



Is the ABC station broadcasting digitally on UHF or VHF? Will the station switch back to upper VHF in February, 2009? (of course by then, TW will likely be carrying the station). If you provide your zip code, we can provide more accurate recommendations. If the station is on UHF, an AntennasDirect DB-2 is compact and can be mounted on the side of a deck.


----------



## slksc

The station is UHF; I have no idea what they'll be doing after 2009. The station is owned by Sinclair Broadcasting, which I think is notorious for not negotiating with cable companies in a number of local markets.


My zip code is 27106. When I just went back to antennaweb.com, I see I made a mistake. WXLV-45 analog is 15 miles away at 358°, but the digital broadcast is 34 miles away at 132°. Here are the coordinates from my house:


WXLV-DT 45.1 ABC WINSTON-SALEM NC 132° 34.2 29


That means I can't mount it on the deck as I had planned, but I might be able to mount it on the southeast corner of the house if I can use a mount that works on brick.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *slksc* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My zip code is 27106. When I just went back to antennaweb.com, I see I made a mistake. WXLV-45 analog is 15 miles away at 358°, but the digital broadcast is 34 miles away at 132°. Here are the coordinates from my house:
> 
> 
> WXLV-DT 45.1 ABC WINSTON-SALEM NC 132° 34.2 29
> 
> 
> That means I can't mount it on the deck as I had planned, but I might be able to mount it on the southeast corner of the house if I can use a mount that works on brick.



Looking up your zip code, all of your local stations are broadcasting on UHF with two groupings spread around 140 degrees in azimuth. Tricky situation if you wanted to get all the stations, but you have only 1 critical station. I recommend you get the Channel Master 4221 4 Bay Bowtie. It should have little problem getting WXLV and may well get all of your locals if you can set it up with a reasonably clear view to the north. As for how to mount it, check out the different mount options at the on-line dealers such as solidsignal.com.


However, connecting the antenna to the Panasonic TH-58PX600 when you are using cable cards for QAM cable is a problem. The Panasonic manual shows only 1 RF input which means the TV is intended to be used for cable or with an OTA antenna, not both. You could put in an A/B switch, but you will likely have to change the input configuration and re-scan every time you want to switch from cable to OTA. Simply just not a viable approach. Either get a cable box (HD-DVR) and use the TV for the tuner or get an external ATSC tuner so you only have to switch input selections to go from cable to OTA. Most TVs do not come with 2 RF inputs and two separate ATSC & QAM tuners. They are intended to be used for 1 or the other digital source as far as the built-in tuners are concerned.


----------



## slksc

Many thanks. That's exactly what I needed.


----------



## gtadell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greywolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> To use a more powerful preamp with its own power supply, again the preamp is to be placed near the antenna. The preamp's power supply must be placed between the top diplexer and the antenna. Both diplexers need to be single port power passing types.



I do have a powered pre-amp (CM7777 I think). My antenna is in the attic and I also have power up there. Would there be any reason why I could not power the pre-amp close to the antenna? Is that what you mean by placing the power supply between the top diplexer and the antenna?


Thanks.


----------



## bschmidt25

Need some input... I'm having serious reception issues. It's all over the place. Some days I get almost everything, most days I get very little with constant drop outs. I am very close to the towers - here is my antennaweb data:


* yellow - uhf WISN-DT 12.1 ABC MILWAUKEE WI 169° 2.6 34

* yellow - uhf WDJT-DT 58.1 CBS MILWAUKEE WI 171° 2.6 46

* yellow - uhf WITI-DT 6.1 FOX MILWAUKEE WI 335° 2.5 33

* yellow - uhf WTMJ-DT 4.1 NBC MILWAUKEE WI 156° 4.4 28

* yellow - vhf WMVS-DT 10.1 PBS MILWAUKEE WI 156° 4.1 8

* yellow - uhf WMVT-DT 36.1 PBS MILWAUKEE WI 156° 4.1 35

* yellow - uhf WPXE-DT 55.1 i KENOSHA WI 156° 4.1 40

* green - uhf WJJA-DT 48 IND RACINE WI TBD 157° 4.7 48

* red - uhf WCGV-DT 24.1 MNT MILWAUKEE WI 156° 4.1 25

* red - uhf WVCY-DT 30.1 REL MILWAUKEE WI 156° 4.1 22

* red - uhf WVTV-DT 18.1 CW MILWAUKEE WI 156° 4.1 61


Problem is... I live on the second floor of a 3 story condo, facing the complete opposite direction of where the towers are. Each floor of the condo is seperated by a concrete and metal floor (which extends out to the patio where I have the antenna located). There are many trees (though not very dense), and a pond in front of the antenna. There are other buildings to the sides. There aren't any tall buildings between me and the towers - just alot of trees and 2-3 story buildings. I'm currently using a DB2 and the integrated tuner on my Sony KD34XBR960. The antenna is pointed pretty much directly opposite of where the towers are, which seems to work best. I know I'm dealing with multipath here and I'm trying to find the best antenna for this situation - being that I'm only about 4 miles from the towers. I have the most problems with 12-1 and 6-1 and the least (relatively) with 4-1 and 58-1 which are both very high power stations. (On a side note, it says 6-1 is at 335 degrees, but I believe they have recently relocated to where the other transmitters are). I was thinking the SS-1000 or 2000 would be a good choice, but admittedly I'm just going by what I have been reading in the forums. Any other suggestions are appreciated!


Thanks!

Bryan


----------



## holl_ands

First of all, you should try an Variable RF Attenuator (R-S 15-678) on the input to reduce the signal overload problem.....

This may allow you to point the DB-2 towards the towers to see if you can pick up the direct path that is probably passing THROUGH your building.


============================================

To reduce multipath, you need an antenna with a NARROWER beamwidth.

The SS-1000/2000 is a very wide beamwidth antenna....also large, heavy and overpriced...

PS: To avoid signal overload, you should NOT be using a Preamp or amplified antenna, like the SS-2000.


If the RF Attenuator doesn't do the job, you might want to try either a 4-Bay or an 8-Bay antenna.


----------



## lovebohn

Or see if you can get the antenna on the roof top.


----------



## bschmidt25




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lovebohn* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Or see if you can get the antenna on the roof top.



I'm also trying that route, but have been unsuccessful so far with my association. I would gladly pay for the antenna and share it with the building if I could. They gave me a hard time about having the antenna on my patio until I printed out the FCC rules. They don't want to allow antennas or satellite dishes on the common areas at all - probably because someone sued them (unsuccessfully) to allow them to put a dish up on the roof so they could receive foreign programming. They probably don't want to set any sort of precedent on that. There is an antenna on the roof already and each unit is wired to it, but my guess is that it is a VHF only antenna as I can get no UHF stations - analog (poor reception) or digital. Funny thing is I can receive analog cable channels 2-13 using the antenna, and I do not have cable service. This leads me to believe that it has a pretty power amplifier attached to it somewhere and it's picking up someone's bleeding signal.


----------



## thp427

Please help me with some basic antenna information. As a Dish satellite subscriber, I will be losing my ABC (a "distant network" out of Chicago, as there is no true local ABC). The closest ABC (the one carried by cable) is about 75 miles away. I am considering going the antenna route and forgoing locals carried by satellite, but don't know where to start.


I went to antennaweb.org to figure out if I could get reception, and it looks like I should be able to. (zip 62305). ABC is 71 miles away, VHF, and a "medium directional with pre-amp" was recommended. I understand that I need a directional, but all the other channels are only 5 miles away. Will a directional still pick up these closer signals? I read something about not using an amp with close signals - so will use of the pre-amp to pick up the station 71 miles away interfere with the reception of the close stations?


If you could clear this up for me, and give me some specific recommendations for antenna setup, I would really appreciate it. Thanks.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *thp427* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Please help me with some basic antenna information. As a Dish satellite subscriber, I will be losing my ABC (a "distant network" out of Chicago, as there is no true local ABC). The closest ABC (the one carried by cable) is about 75 miles away. I am considering going the antenna route and forgoing locals carried by satellite, but don't know where to start.
> 
> 
> I went to antennaweb.org to figure out if I could get reception, and it looks like I should be able to. (zip 62305). ABC is 71 miles away, VHF, and a "medium directional with pre-amp" was recommended. I understand that I need a directional, but all the other channels are only 5 miles away. Will a directional still pick up these closer signals? I read something about not using an amp with close signals - so will use of the pre-amp to pick up the station 71 miles away interfere with the reception of the close stations?
> 
> 
> If you could clear this up for me, and give me some specific recommendations for antenna setup, I would really appreciate it. Thanks.



KTVO analog is on channel 3. Reception of that may be possible. KTVO's DTV channel is 33, but is running 87 KW, not enough to go 71 miles.


Hence, an all channel antenna with as much gain as possible on channel 3 is called for. The Winegard HD-8200P is one such antenna. You will need a good rotator.


Another approach is a low band only antenna coupled to a UHF only without a rotator. Aim the low-band at KTVO, the UHF only at the Quincy stations.

Low-band: http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/YA1026.htm 

UHF only: http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4221.htm 

Joiners: http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm 


A preamp is not needed on channel 3. Erect the antenna as high as possible.


The use of a preamp in a high signal strength area causes intermod. The intermod usually won't bother the strong local stations, but will cover up the weak distant stations. Hence, an overloaded preamp prevents reception of exactly the signal that you want to receive.


A preamp is more necessary on UHF than VHF. Your ABC analog on channel 3 won't be helped by a preamp even if it were not overloaded by the local stations.


----------



## thp427

Thanks. It's the specific recommendations like this that make this site so helpful.


----------



## FROTH

I am experiencing HD dropouts that I have not been able to resolve. Analog reception very good except for channel 3 (understandable because low freq VHF on a UHF antenna)

. Location - Crestwood KY 40014 . SR15 Antenna - 10 ft above roof line at 280 degrees

. SAMSUNG T351 Box . Towers 20 -22 miles at 276/280 degrees

. 75 ft RG6 Coax . No Amp

. HD Freq 8, 17,26, 38, 47, 49, 51, 55 . Analog Freq 3, 11, 15, 21,32, 41, 58, 68

. Low hill about 300 yds away . Tree about 50 ft away.


Summer is usually poor on all HD freq, winter I have been able to get a day or two with great HD reception on all channels but then it will start dropping out & pixelating on all freq. Seems to be weather related.

Neighbor 200 ft away gets OTA HD w/o dropout using double bow tie about same height.

(He does have different HD tuner.) Tried 43XG as recommended by Solid Signal - no improvement in dropouts or signal strength compared to SR15. Tried various heights up to 15 ft above roof. (Note SR15 is well made -The 43XG was flimsy in comparison.)


I have read the first 66 forum pages and have not yet found salvation. Is there any hope?


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FROTH* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am experiencing HD dropouts that I have not been able to resolve. Analog reception very good except for channel 3 (understandable because low freq VHF on a UHF antenna)
> 
> . Location - Crestwood KY 40014 . SR15 Antenna - 10 ft above roof line at 280 degrees
> 
> . SAMSUNG T351 Box . Towers 20 -22 miles at 276/280 degrees
> 
> . 75 ft RG6 Coax . No Amp
> 
> . HD Freq 8, 17,26, 38, 47, 49, 51, 55 . Analog Freq 3, 11, 15, 21,32, 41, 58, 68
> 
> . Low hill about 300 yds away . Tree about 50 ft away.
> 
> 
> Summer is usually poor on all HD freq, winter I have been able to get a day or two with great HD reception on all channels but then it will start dropping out & pixelating on all freq. Seems to be weather related.
> 
> Neighbor 200 ft away gets OTA HD w/o dropout using double bow tie about same height.
> 
> (He does have different HD tuner.) Tried 43XG as recommended by Solid Signal - no improvement in dropouts or signal strength compared to SR15. Tried various heights up to 15 ft above roof. (Note SR15 is well made -The 43XG was flimsy in comparison.)
> 
> 
> I have read the first 66 forum pages and have not yet found salvation. Is there any hope?




If all the analog UHF channels are good with no ghosting,then it must be the STB.Try a different box,or a TV with a built-in tuner.If that doesn't solve the problem,try an XG91 or CM4228 8-bay with no preamp.


The only other thing that could cause this would be a faulty appliance or electrical wiring problem,but that should show up on the analogs as well.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FROTH* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am experiencing HD dropouts that I have not been able to resolve. Analog reception very good except for channel 3 (understandable because low freq VHF on a UHF antenna)
> 
> . Location - Crestwood KY 40014 . SR15 Antenna - 10 ft above roof line at 280 degrees
> 
> . SAMSUNG T351 Box . Towers 20 -22 miles at 276/280 degrees
> 
> . 75 ft RG6 Coax . No Amp
> 
> . HD Freq 8, 17,26, 38, 47, 49, 51, 55 . Analog Freq 3, 11, 15, 21,32, 41, 58, 68



All of your local stations are around 21 miles and all are at UHF with the exception of WBNA-DT 21 Pax/i station on VHF 8. Since both of the antennas you tried are UHF only, I would assume this station is not important (well it is Pax, now i, the informercal network). Both of them are yagi style which can be touchy for the right aim. I think you would get better results with a CM 4221 4 Bay bowtie. Should provide more gain on average across all the UHF channels. The CM 4221 is a widely recommended antenna here for a reason.


----------



## beanpod

Currently using a CM Stealth with amplifier card mounted outside about 25 feet high pointed toward the 312 degree antenna farm...no rotary. At 312 deg I get WRAL and WNCN are fairly consistant. My local Greenville stations and even the New Bern station are solid. Omnidirection reception is a strength of the Stealth.


I want to tap solidly into all stations at the 312 deg antenna farm without a rotary and without losing my local stations. I am considering a CM 4221 plus amplifier because it might pick up New Bern on the back side and also CBS out of Greenville is VHF. Second consideration is 4228, but I understand it to be more directional. If I must, I'll install a rotary, but I wanted to toss this out for suggestion before making a decision.


Any options/combinations/suggestions, etc welcome. Thanks in advance.


Below are my AntennaWeb results. And BTW, my local FOX hasn't even begun digital broadcast and is a primary reason for interest in the Raleigh antenna farm.



* yellow - uhf WEPX-DT 38 MNT GREENVILLE NC TBD 29° 18.3 38

* yellow - vhf WNCT-DT 9.1 CBS GREENVILLE NC 38° 17.0 10

* yellow - uhf WITN-DT 7.1 NBC WASHINGTON NC 38° 17.0 32

* yellow - uhf WCTI-DT 12.1 ABC NEW BERN NC 114° 11.9 48

* yellow - uhf WUNM-DT 19.1 PBS JACKSONVILLE NC 114° 11.9 18

* green - uhf WYDO-DT 21 FOX GREENVILLE NC TBD 34° 22.6 21

* green - uhf WUNK-DT 25.1 PBS GREENVILLE NC 2° 28.0 23

* blue - uhf WNCN-DT 17.1 NBC GOLDSBORO NC 312° 66.4 55

* blue - uhf WRAL-DT 5.1 CBS RALEIGH NC 312° 66.4 53

* blue - uhf WRAZ-DT 50.1 FOX RALEIGH NC 312° 66.4 49

* violet - uhf WTVD-DT 11.1 ABC DURHAM NC 312° 66.4 52

* violet - uhf WPXU-DT 35.1 MNT JACKSONVILLE NC 182° 43.9 34


----------



## FROTH




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If all the analog UHF channels are good with no ghosting,then it must be the STB.Try a different box,or a TV with a built-in tuner.If that doesn't solve the problem,try an XG91 or CM4228 8-bay with no preamp.
> 
> 
> The only other thing that could cause this would be a faulty appliance or electrical wiring problem,but that should show up on the analogs as well.



Thanks - I am considering a different box or 4 bay bow tie antenna. I think what I am really searching for is understanding why I can sometimes get good reception for a whole day or two and then it starts to dropout again. This in my small mind means the antenna & box can work together. I need to understand why changing the STB or using a 4/8 bay bow tie antenna can make it work all the time? So I beg your indulgence with some more info and questions.


There is some minor ghosting on a couple of channels but others are clear to me. How bad does analog ghosting have to be before it equates to HD dropout due to multipath? Or is everything depend on the HT Tuner? Does the Samsung T351 have a bad history of being unable to "lock on" unless conditions are perfect? Is there some spec on tuners that equates to signal lock ability? What I am afraid of is that I am in a location that somehow prevents good solid HD signal unless I get a "magic" day that bends/reflects the signal to the antenna and no STB or antenna would work. Has this happened to anyone?


What what conditions would a bow tie antenna be better than a directional yagi when all the stations are in the same direction?


I always get from 5 to 9 bars (of a max 10). This signal strength is consistant whether or not I have good reception or dropouts & pixelation. When I have dropout, the signal strength on the STB reading drops to "0" then back up again.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *beanpod* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> I want to tap solidly into all stations at the 312 deg antenna farm without a rotary and without losing my local stations. I am considering a CM 4221 plus amplifier because it might pick up New Bern on the back side and also CBS out of Greenville is VHF. Second consideration is 4228, but I understand it to be more directional. If I must, I'll install a rotary, but I wanted to toss this out for suggestion before making a decision.



There's no off-the-shelf answer to your situation. Two antennas, one UHF only such as the 4228 aimed at 312 and an all channel antenna aimed at about 33 will receive most signals. There's no good way to add them together. You could try just adding them using a splitter backwards as a combiner and hope that the multipath and loss won't matter.


----------



## beanpod

Thanks TowerGuy. That is an option I considered, but then I have additional masting issues. I talked with a tech rep at CM and he suggested removing the amp from the Stealth if I tried a combo approach.


Anyone else have suggestions???


----------



## texasbrit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> All of your local stations are around 21 miles and all are at UHF with the exception of WBNA-DT 21 Pax/i station on VHF 8. Since both of the antennas you tried are UHF only, I would assume this station is not important (well it is Pax, now i, the informercal network). Both of them are yagi style which can be touchy for the right aim. I think you would get better results with a CM 4221 4 Bay bowtie. Should provide more gain on average across all the UHF channels. The CM 4221 is a widely recommended antenna here for a reason.



Just FYI, in 2009 when analog goes away WHAS is going back to channel 11 so there will be another VHF-hi station. At 21 miles the CM4221 may be OK for this VHF station but if you are still in the same house after 2009 you may suddenly start to have problems.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> so the end result is...going to have to live with a more simplifed system without amplification. The signal strength actually went up a few points after I removed all the electronics. But I can not receive the distant signals as well.



I found the same thing here. I'm considering the next step.

There's an amplifer designed for extremely high signal levels, the ZHL-1010-75.
http://www.minicircuits.com/dg03-176.pdf 

The gain is a bit low at 9.5 db.


The other approach is filtering before the preamp and specific antennas for each distant signal - very complicated, but effective.


I'm mulling over what it would take to build a preamp that has multiple amplifiers, one for each section of the TV band. The famous 7777 has two amplifiers. What if there were 4 amplifiers set up as follows?

1. Low band

2. High band

3. UHF 14-36

4. UHF 38-69

I don't know yet if a filter that separates the UHF band as shown is practical. It's handy to have channel 37 as a dead channel.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Btw---retuned the jointenna to minimize adjacent attenuation on ch 54 digital.
> 
> 
> ...first tried instrumentation, then by eye and a little luck..



What are you using for "instrumentation"


You can probably get sharper notching of the undesired channel using a Winegard UT-2700, which is fairly inexpensive, though it is a little funky to tune.


A Blonder Tongue MWT-u will get you very tight notches, but at about $250 or so, it is cost prohibitive for most applications.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *beanpod* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Currently using a CM Stealth with amplifier card mounted outside about 25 feet high pointed toward the 312 degree antenna farm...no rotary. At 312 deg I get WRAL and WNCN are fairly consistant. My local Greenville stations and even the New Bern station are solid. Omnidirection reception is a strength of the Stealth.
> 
> 
> I want to tap solidly into all stations at the 312 deg antenna farm without a rotary and without losing my local stations. I am considering a CM 4221 plus amplifier because it might pick up New Bern on the back side and also CBS out of Greenville is VHF. Second consideration is 4228, but I understand it to be more directional. If I must, I'll install a rotary, but I wanted to toss this out for suggestion before making a decision.
> 
> 
> Any options/combinations/suggestions, etc welcome. Thanks in advance.
> 
> 
> Below are my AntennaWeb results. And BTW, my local FOX hasn't even begun digital broadcast and is a primary reason for interest in the Raleigh antenna farm.
> 
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf WEPX-DT 38 MNT GREENVILLE NC TBD 29° 18.3 38
> 
> * yellow - vhf WNCT-DT 9.1 CBS GREENVILLE NC 38° 17.0 10
> 
> * yellow - uhf WITN-DT 7.1 NBC WASHINGTON NC 38° 17.0 32
> 
> * yellow - uhf WCTI-DT 12.1 ABC NEW BERN NC 114° 11.9 48
> 
> * yellow - uhf WUNM-DT 19.1 PBS JACKSONVILLE NC 114° 11.9 18
> 
> * green - uhf WYDO-DT 21 FOX GREENVILLE NC TBD 34° 22.6 21
> 
> * green - uhf WUNK-DT 25.1 PBS GREENVILLE NC 2° 28.0 23
> 
> * blue - uhf WNCN-DT 17.1 NBC GOLDSBORO NC 312° 66.4 55
> 
> * blue - uhf WRAL-DT 5.1 CBS RALEIGH NC 312° 66.4 53
> 
> * blue - uhf WRAZ-DT 50.1 FOX RALEIGH NC 312° 66.4 49
> 
> * violet - uhf WTVD-DT 11.1 ABC DURHAM NC 312° 66.4 52
> 
> * violet - uhf WPXU-DT 35.1 MNT JACKSONVILLE NC 182° 43.9 34



I have a combiner that may work for this.It breaks at Ch37 and can be configured to amplify upper,lower,or both.


Triax....TMC 3739 STP

Insertion loss...20db

Thru-power...switchable


Let me know if you need one.


Greg B


----------



## DLCPhoto

I would appreciate some help here:


I just bought a Sony KDF-42E2000, and needed an indoor antenna for OTA HDTV. I normally don't get Radio Shack stuff, but it was on the way home, and I have 30-days to try/return if need be, Target didn't have anything, so I bought RS's "Indoor UHF/VHF/HDTF Antenna with RF Remote Control" (# 15-892 in their catalogue). Here is a link to it at their website:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 


I went to AntennaWeb's site, and got the following results:


* yellow - uhf WJZY-DT 46.1 CW BELMONT NC 242° 24.2 47

* yellow - uhf WCNC-DT 36.1 NBC CHARLOTTE NC 242° 25.5 22

* yellow - uhf WMYT-DT 55.1 MNT ROCK HIL SC 242° 24.2 39

* yellow - uhf WBTV-DT 3.1 CBS CHARLOTTE NC 245° 25.7 23

* yellow - uhf WUNG-DT 58.1 PBS CONCORD NC 149° 17.6 44

* yellow - uhf WSOC-DT 9.1 ABC CHARLOTTE NC 175° 21.1 34

* yellow - uhf WCCB-DT 18.1 FOX CHARLOTTE NC 176° 20.6 27

* yellow - uhf WAXN-DT 64.1 IND KANNAPOLIS NC 175° 21.1 50

* green - vhf WTVI-DT 42.1 PBS CHARLOTTE NC 169° 19.8 11

* red - uhf WUNE-DT 17.1 PBS LINVILLE NC 308° 68.0 54

* red - uhf WFMY-DT 2.1 CBS GREENSBORO NC 75° 57.9 51

* violet - uhf WXLV-DT 45.1 ABC WINSTON-SALEM NC 75° 58.7 29

* violet - uhf WXII-DT 12.1 NBC WINSTON-SALEM NC 30° 61.1 31

* violet - uhf WMYV-DT 48.1 MNT GREENSBORO NC 75° 58.7 33


I hooked it up, left it in its default position, had my Sony search for channels, and I am able to get a good signal and picture from all the stations in yellow. I was pretty impressed. WMYT was a little dicey at times, but I found that choosing a different position setting for the antenna remedied that.


My only problem is that I can't pick up WTVI-DT, 42.x, out of Charlotte (which is where I'm near, and where most of the other stations that I do get are located). I have done some fiddling with the antenna's internal settings, its physical position, etc., but can't seem to pick up this station. According to the AntennaWeb site, this signal originates quite close in orientation to others that I receive fine, so I would guess that the physical position and orientation of the antenna isn't the problem.


I should mention that downstairs I have had a Mitsu WS-65869 RP-CRT HDTV for a number of years, hooked up to a rooftop antenna (Radio Shack Model Model: VU-90 XR or similar) on a rotor, and I receive this station without any problem. The new TV is on the 2nd floor, different side of the house.


I don't have any technical knowledge with respect to antenna design and reception, so am looking for some advice in terms of what I can do with this indoor Radio Shack antenna to pull in this VHF station. It has a set of 'rabbit ears' on the back, but I really don't know which signal these are supposed to pull in.


I can still return this, and get something different, but I am pretty impressed by the solid reception it provides for all the other 'yellow' stations on my list.


Any thoughts/recommendations/information appreciated.


----------



## DougRuss




> Quote:
> don't have any technical knowledge with respect to antenna design and reception, so am looking for some advice in terms of what I can do with this indoor Radio Shack antenna to pull in this VHF station. It has a set of 'rabbit ears' on the back, but I really don't know which signal these are supposed to pull in.



The Rabbit Ears are used for the VHF....Try extending them out all the way...and you'll have to fiddle with it some!


----------



## DLCPhoto




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DougRuss* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The Rabbit Ears are used for the VHF....Try extending them out all the way...and you'll have to fiddle with it some!



Thanks for the quick reply.


I have done that, extending all the way, rotating them (and the unit itself) in various dimensions. My Sony has a live signal strength indicator, and it pretty much stays at 41 (and drops to 0 if I uncouple the antenna). When I check the strength on the others, they are generally at least 70, many over 90.


It's almost as if there is no VGA reception at all, but that at least theoretically is not the case, according to the specs for this antenna.


Any other thoughts or suggestions appreciated.


----------



## beanpod




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There's no off-the-shelf answer to your situation. Two antennas, one UHF only such as the 4228 aimed at 312 and an all channel antenna aimed at about 33 will receive most signals. There's no good way to add them together. You could try just adding them using a splitter backwards as a combiner and hope that the multipath and loss won't matter.



If I tried a 4228 at 312 plus Stealth (curently amplified) at about 33 and combined coax post amplified (just before connecting to TV), does that cause multipath issues or is multipath a product of relative positioning of the 2 antennas to each other?? Coax runs will be about 50 ft each.


If I went with the 4228 and rotary combo...would you suggest an amplifier. Would amplification be too much for the 12-22 mile stations??



> Quote:
> I have a combiner that may work for this.It breaks at Ch37 and can be configured to amplify upper,lower,or both.
> 
> 
> Triax....TMC 3739 STP
> 
> Insertion loss...20db
> 
> Thru-power...switchable



I'm not sure how this fits into my situation. Thanks for the input though.


----------



## NightHawk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I found the same thing here. I'm considering the next step.
> 
> There's an amplifer designed for extremely high signal levels, the ZHL-1010-75.
> http://www.minicircuits.com/dg03-176.pdf
> 
> The gain is a bit low at 9.5 db.
> 
> 
> The other approach is filtering before the preamp and specific antennas for each distant signal - very complicated, but effective.
> 
> 
> I'm mulling over what it would take to build a preamp that has multiple amplifiers, one for each section of the TV band. The famous 7777 has two amplifiers. What if there were 4 amplifiers set up as follows?
> 
> 1. Low band
> 
> 2. High band
> 
> 3. UHF 14-36
> 
> 4. UHF 38-69
> 
> I don't know yet if a filter that separates the UHF band as shown is practical. It's handy to have channel 37 as a dead channel.




A better choice might be the Minicircuits ZHL 2010 on the same page. It has a better gain number at 20 dB. I think 9.5 is simply too low if you have any significant loss to the receiver. The very high +26 dBm 1 dB compression point will help mitigate any overload problems (compare that with the +2 dBm output capability of the channel master 7777 or the + 13 dBm output of the Winegard HDP 269). Although it's a 50 Ohm amplifier that won't make much of a difference when interfaced with a wideband UHF antenna. All of the Minicircuits amplifiers need protection from the elements as they are not designed for outdoor use.


As for the multiple amplifiers, most amplifiers exibit significant gain outside their designed frequency of operation. You can't expect them to function as filters based on their frequency coverage specifications. You can effectively pre-filter, but the downside there is the insertion loss and mismatch loss of the filter, which adds directly to the noise figure.


----------



## bschmidt25




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bschmidt25* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Need some input... I'm having serious reception issues. It's all over the place. Some days I get almost everything, most days I get very little with constant drop outs. I am very close to the towers - here is my antennaweb data:
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf WISN-DT 12.1 ABC MILWAUKEE WI 169° 2.6 34
> 
> * yellow - uhf WDJT-DT 58.1 CBS MILWAUKEE WI 171° 2.6 46
> 
> * yellow - uhf WITI-DT 6.1 FOX MILWAUKEE WI 335° 2.5 33
> 
> * yellow - uhf WTMJ-DT 4.1 NBC MILWAUKEE WI 156° 4.4 28
> 
> * yellow - vhf WMVS-DT 10.1 PBS MILWAUKEE WI 156° 4.1 8
> 
> * yellow - uhf WMVT-DT 36.1 PBS MILWAUKEE WI 156° 4.1 35
> 
> * yellow - uhf WPXE-DT 55.1 i KENOSHA WI 156° 4.1 40
> 
> * green - uhf WJJA-DT 48 IND RACINE WI TBD 157° 4.7 48
> 
> * red - uhf WCGV-DT 24.1 MNT MILWAUKEE WI 156° 4.1 25
> 
> * red - uhf WVCY-DT 30.1 REL MILWAUKEE WI 156° 4.1 22
> 
> * red - uhf WVTV-DT 18.1 CW MILWAUKEE WI 156° 4.1 61
> 
> 
> Problem is... I live on the second floor of a 3 story condo, facing the complete opposite direction of where the towers are. Each floor of the condo is seperated by a concrete and metal floor (which extends out to the patio where I have the antenna located). There are many trees (though not very dense), and a pond in front of the antenna. There are other buildings to the sides. There aren't any tall buildings between me and the towers - just alot of trees and 2-3 story buildings. I'm currently using a DB2 and the integrated tuner on my Sony KD34XBR960. The antenna is pointed pretty much directly opposite of where the towers are, which seems to work best. I know I'm dealing with multipath here and I'm trying to find the best antenna for this situation - being that I'm only about 4 miles from the towers. I have the most problems with 12-1 and 6-1 and the least (relatively) with 4-1 and 58-1 which are both very high power stations. (On a side note, it says 6-1 is at 335 degrees, but I believe they have recently relocated to where the other transmitters are). I was thinking the SS-1000 or 2000 would be a good choice, but admittedly I'm just going by what I have been reading in the forums. Any other suggestions are appreciated!
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Bryan



After heeding some advice of going with a more directional antenna, I have narrowed my options to the following:


Terrestrial Digital (AntennasDirect) 42XG or SR15

Winegard PR9014


Good options or not?


Thanks!


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *beanpod* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I tried a 4228 at 312 plus Stealth (curently amplified) at about 33 and combined coax post amplified (just before connecting to TV), does that cause multipath issues or is multipath a product of relative positioning of the 2 antennas to each other?? Coax runs will be about 50 ft each.
> 
> 
> If I went with the 4228 and rotary combo...would you suggest an amplifier. Would amplification be too much for the 12-22 mile stations??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how this fits into my situation. Thanks for the input though.




The combiner can be configured to use the 4228 pointed towards the 312 deg stations using a preamp on the high side,then use the other antenna for your locals(unamped).The low-side of the combiner will pass everything from Ch2 up to 38 or so.Would be a good solution,at least for a couple years,or so.


Greg B


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a combiner that may work for this.It breaks at Ch37 and can be configured to amplify upper,lower,or both.
> 
> 
> Triax....TMC 3739 STP
> 
> Insertion loss...20db
> 
> Thru-power...switchable
> 
> 
> Greg B



I didn't know about those filters. Thanks for the tip.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> what I ended up doing was
> 
> 
> split the combined incoming signal with a 2 way splitter. used a 3 way splitter for 3 short runs (eliminated 1 line that was not used much to cut down on the losses) behind the hometheater system and installed a channel plus DA-500 distribution amp to amplify just the 2 long runs.
> 
> 
> In line installed a radio shack variable attenutor after the distribution amp and adjusted till the co channel interference was not noticable (11 oclock on the dial).



I just found out about this:
http://www.triax.com/upload/triax_in...guide_2006.pdf 

See page 15.


----------



## beanpod




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The combiner can be configured to use the 4228 pointed towards the 312 deg stations using a preamp on the high side,then use the other antenna for your locals(unamped).The low-side of the combiner will pass everything from Ch2 up to 38 or so.Would be a good solution,at least for a couple years,or so.
> 
> 
> Greg B



Not trying to be difficult, but I was thinking in reverse. Considering my current antenna (CM Stealth) already has an amplifier card and pointed at 312 and I can get 2 sataions fairly consistant, I was told by a local installer I was in a "sweet spot" because the Stealth was not suppose to have that capability. Therefore, I'm thinking about the 4228 unamped at 312 plus the Stealth (amped) at 33 for locals. Local ABC transmits at 48 Hz, but rest of locals are below 39 and I believe I'd need the Stealth amped for local ABC since it is the odd direction.


Speaking of the local installer, he's mostly a sat guy and I could tell in conversation he wasn't the strongest knowledge base for OTA antenna. He suggested a Winegard HD995 (another installer had mentioned it to him as a popular UHF antenna), but it looks like a yagi and I'm trying to avoid a rotator (at present). Any thoughts on the HD995???


How would this factor into the combiner use?? I'm still unclear about the point of multipath interference. Is it only an interaction of 2 antennas or does the signal get jumbled upon combining???


I appreciate the input so far.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *beanpod* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Not trying to be difficult, but I was thinking in reverse. Considering my current antenna (CM Stealth) already has an amplifier card and pointed at 312 and I can get 2 sataions fairly consistant, I was told by a local installer I was in a "sweet spot" because the Stealth was not suppose to have that capability. Therefore, I'm thinking about the 4228 unamped at 312 plus the Stealth (amped) at 33 for locals. Local ABC transmits at 48 Hz, but rest of locals are below 39 and I believe I'd need the Stealth amped for local ABC since it is the odd direction.
> 
> 
> Speaking of the local installer, he's mostly a sat guy and I could tell in conversation he wasn't the strongest knowledge base for OTA antenna. He suggested a Winegard HD995 (another installer had mentioned it to him as a popular UHF antenna), but it looks like a yagi and I'm trying to avoid a rotator (at present). Any thoughts on the HD995???
> 
> 
> How would this factor into the combiner use?? I'm still unclear about the point of multipath interference. Is it only an interaction of 2 antennas or does the signal get jumbled upon combining???
> 
> 
> I appreciate the input so far.



You stated in a previous post the Stealth picks up all your locals,including Ch10 solid.Good.Now you're trying to add some upper UHF from Raleigh.Right? Ok,at 66mi you need an antenna that performs well in that frequency range.I would suggest either a 91XG(best) or a 4221 4-bay(it's as good,or better than a 4228 at the higher frequencies),and use a 7775 or 7777 preamp.Then,combine both systems after amplification into the combiner.The combiner output would then go to the Tv,tuner,ect.


The only channel in question would be WCTI on 48,but it's only 12 miles away,so whatever antenna you use for the Raleigh stations should pick them up off the back no problem.


On second thought,in your situation with close locals I'd use an additional combiner(high side)between the Raleigh antenna and preamp input to knock down the local stuff by 20db before amplification.I have two.


Greg B


----------



## texasbrit

The 4228 has better performance than the 4221 on all UHF channels up to the low 60s. And when analog goes away in 2009 there will be no UHF channels above 52 anyway. The only real advantage of using the 4221 is that it has a much wider beamwidth than the 4228, so can sometimes be used in situations where you would otherwise need a rotor. And it's smaller and lighter.


The 91XG also shows better performance than the 4228 at high UHF, probably anything above channel 53 or so. But again this isn't important if you are planning for 2009 when those channels currently above 52 will be moving down.


And all these performance numbers are pretty theoretical. The 4228 and 91 XG are both excellent UHF antennas, which one is best for you will often depend on your particular situation and you can only know for sure by trying them both.


----------



## hdtv00

So now Im trying to help my dad get his reception going. He's got a nice tower 25ft up or so with an unknown to me but I believe one of the common fringe antennas not sure if its 30 mile version or the 60mile UHF version. Anyway he gets a few channels but all dont come in. He also makes it worse by splitting it in the house into at least a 3 way, if not 4 way splitter, then theres the in the end about a 70 ft run of cable to get to the final hdtv.


Try what first, line straight to tv,amp the line, better antenna or all of the above. Also seen brand I cant remember at local farm and fleet deep fringe antenna said it has 80mile UHF range 51 element. Anyone know if this is better than a channel master 60mile range antenna.


Also since stations have a semi wide angle can you rig two antennas pointing at each spot and combine them then run into same hdtv. I pretty much know a few answers like I mentioned just wanted to see what you pros had to add.


It says hes 25.6 from the main antenna farm and 14 from the other but its well off angle to the others.


----------



## NightHawk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hdtv00* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So now Im trying to help my dad get his reception going. He's got a nice tower 25ft up or so with an unknown to me but I believe one of the common fringe antennas not sure if its 30 mile version or the 60mile UHF version. Anyway he gets a few channels but all dont come in. He also makes it worse by splitting it in the house into at least a 3 way, if not 4 way splitter, then theres the in the end about a 70 ft run of cable to get to the final hdtv.
> 
> 
> Try what first, line straight to tv,amp the line, better antenna or all of the above. Also seen brand I cant remember at local farm and fleet deep fringe antenna said it has 80mile UHF range 51 element. Anyone know if this is better than a channel master 60mile range antenna.
> 
> 
> Also since stations have a semi wide angle can you rig two antennas pointing at each spot and combine them then run into same hdtv. I pretty much know a few answers like I mentioned just wanted to see what you pros had to add.
> 
> 
> It says hes 25.6 from the main antenna farm and 14 from the other but its well off angle to the others.



Try a single line straight to a single TV. That should gain you some signal. If that works either a pre-amp or distribution amplifier before the splitter might be needed. You need to verify the antenna type first. A better antenna is the best place to start if the one you have is deficient.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> it is a challenge that continues to torment me trying to find a solution that will allow me the best of both worlds...local and distant reception.



Try this;


Get two Triax splitters (listed 2 posts earlier) along with a VHF/UHF splitter/joiner. Connect one HDP-269 for the high UHF channels, another HDP-269 for the low UHF channels, and a straight through cable for VHF. Add the output of the two HDP-269's using a second Triax splitter, and then combine it to the VHF bypass cable with a second VHF/UHF splitter.


Each HDP-269 will have half the signals, but the peak power in each one will be 1/4 or less. The overload resistance should get better by 6 db to 600,000 uvolts.

The noise figure will be the loss of the splitters (1.5 db +/-) plus the noise of the HDP-269. The loss of the second Triax splitter and UHF/VHF joiner won't matter.


I'll do the same test when I get some time to play.


----------



## nyprimus4

I'm new to antenna HD programming.


According to antennaweb.org I can get CBS, NBC, FOX, and ABC in the yellow which are the only channels I care about. I would have liked ESPN the most but the cable with everything is $15 a month.


I live in a 2 story house with no large buildings around.


I just recently purchased the Samsung Slimfit 30" HDTV (TXS3082WHX) which has a built in HD tuner. I would only need an HD antenna now, correct?


Would the Terk Indoor Amplified HDTV Antenna from Bestbuy for $69.99 give me an awesome looking 1080i, reliable image?
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1118844608800 


I'm on the top floor of the house in the corner in a mid-sized room, if the Terk antenna I mentioned is good enough can I just mount the antenna on the ceiling closest to my window?


----------



## crhinehart

Here are my Antennaweb results (for desired stations):


yellow - uhf WXTX 54 FOX COLUMBUS GA 173° 8.5 54

* yellow - uhf WXTX-DT 54.1 FOX COLUMBUS GA 173° 8.5 49

yellow - uhf WLTZ 38 NBC COLUMBUS GA 176° 8.6 38

* yellow - uhf WLTZ-DT 38.1 NBC COLUMBUS GA 176° 8.6 35

* green - uhf WJSP-DT 23 PBS COLUMBUS GA 07-08 35° 22.1 23

red - vhf WTVM 9 ABC COLUMBUS GA 161° 19.2 9

* red - uhf WTVM-DT 9.1 ABC COLUMBUS GA 161° 19.2 47

red - vhf WRBL 3 CBS COLUMBUS GA 161° 19.2 3

* red - uhf WRBL-DT 3.1 CBS COLUMBUS GA 161° 19.2 15

* blue - vhf WACS-DT 8 PBS DAWSON GA 07-08 158° 48.9 8


I am really only interested in the DT stations for OTA, as I have cable for SD reception. I have a projector and I am ready to get OTA HDTV. I have ample attic space and need help with antenna selection. I have been reviewing info online for three days now and realize there is no one answer. That said, I have a couple of questions:


1. (Ignoring for the moment the PBS stations) since the VHF channels 3 and 9 are broadcasting DT on UHF channels, can I get away with a UHF-only antenna? I think the answer is 'yes' but can someone please confirm?


2. Depending on the answer to #1, can you provide recommendations for an antenna for my attic? I don't know line of sight info, but in general it's pretty darn flat here in South GA. There are trees between me and the antennas (which are mostly at CSG airport, I think). CM-4221, CM-4228 (overkill?)? some of the smaller set-top antenna units (from Zenith, Radio Shack, Jensen, Terk, etc)? Winegard Square Shooter? SharpShooter? other Winegard? AntennasDirect DB2 or DB4? Help? I'm in "Antenna Overload!!"


I have a coax cable run from my attic down to my basement theater with Optoma projector and 7 foot (horizontal) screen. I'm so excited about getting HD. I don't have a tuner yet but have my eye on the new Samsung.


Thanks for your input!


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nyprimus4* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> According to antennaweb.org I can get CBS, NBC, FOX, and ABC in the yellow which are the only channels I care about. I would have liked ESPN the most but the cable with everything is $15 a month.
> 
> 
> I live in a 2 story house with no large buildings around.
> 
> 
> I just recently purchased the Samsung Slimfit 30" HDTV (TXS3082WHX) which has a built in HD tuner. I would only need an HD antenna now, correct?
> 
> 
> Would the Terk Indoor Amplified HDTV Antenna from Bestbuy for $69.99 give me an awesome looking 1080i, reliable image?...
> 
> I'm on the top floor of the house in the corner in a mid-sized room, if the Terk antenna I mentioned is good enough can I just mount the antenna on the ceiling closest to my window?



A yellow color code on antennaweb is not much of a guide. How far are you from the local broadcast towers? 10 miles? 30 miles? 50 miles? Are all the stations currently digitally broadcasting on UHF or are some on VHF? Are they all in the same direction? These questions should be answered before you select an antenna and setup. If you provide your zip code, we can look up the antennaweb entry and other sources to provide valid recommendations for your situation. The Terk you listed is ok for a Terk but is UHF only and for closer range situations, typically inside of 20 miles.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *crhinehart* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Antenna for Midland / Columbus, GA - attic
> 
> * yellow - uhf WXTX-DT 54.1 FOX COLUMBUS GA 173° 8.5 49
> 
> * yellow - uhf WLTZ-DT 38.1 NBC COLUMBUS GA 176° 8.6 35
> 
> * green - uhf WJSP-DT 23 PBS COLUMBUS GA 07-08 35° 22.1 23
> 
> * red - uhf WTVM-DT 9.1 ABC COLUMBUS GA 161° 19.2 47
> 
> * red - uhf WRBL-DT 3.1 CBS COLUMBUS GA 161° 19.2 15
> 
> * blue - vhf WACS-DT 8 PBS DAWSON GA 07-08 158° 48.9 8
> 
> 
> 2. Depending on the answer to #1, can you provide recommendations for an antenna for my attic? I don't know line of sight info, but in general it's pretty darn flat here in South GA. There are trees between me and the antennas (which are mostly at CSG airport, I think). CM-4221, CM-4228 (overkill?)? some of the smaller set-top antenna units (from Zenith, Radio Shack, Jensen, Terk, etc)? Winegard Square Shooter? SharpShooter? other Winegard? AntennasDirect DB2 or DB4? Help? I'm in "Antenna Overload!!"



Ignoring the WACS PBS station broadcasting on VHF 8, all your digital stations are currently on UHF. The four major network stations are all in the same direction. If you are going with an attic mount, the Channel Master 4221 4 Bay is a good choice. The DB-2 will likely do the job as well, but the CM 4221 offers a good combination of range and wide pickup in azimuth & may pick the closer of the PBS stations. You don't need to get into the large long range & directional antennas if your goal is to the key stations on the list above.


----------



## hdtv00

crhinehart


I have that exact same antenna basically came with tv wonder and I live 12.5 miles from towers and it cuts in and out. I wouldn't say get one unless you want drop outs. Especially for that insane price. If you want no drop outs buy one of the flat panel like ones and hang it on a wall or something. Heck you have a house have at it with a real setup. Just be glad you dont live in an apt.


----------



## crhinehart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hdtv00* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> crhinehart
> 
> 
> I have that exact same antenna basically came with tv wonder and I live 12.5 miles from towers and it cuts in and out. I wouldn't say get one unless you want drop outs. Especially for that insane price. If you want no drop outs buy one of the flat panel like ones and hang it on a wall or something. Heck you have a house have at it with a real setup. Just be glad you dont live in an apt.



HDTV00, thanks for the reply. For clarification, please tell me which antenna you are referring to. The one I am leaning toward at this point is the ChannelMaster 4221A (same as ChannelMaster 3021, as I understand). These are large, outdoor mount antennas. Are you saying that one of these came with your TV? They only cost $25 plus shipping, with a total of about $36 from Warren Electronics.


Please clarify your comment, if you don't mind. Thanks.


----------



## wtxlonghorn

Ok I will preface this by stating the obvious, I am a newbie. I am trying to pickup my "locals" OTA and have several questions. My first question involves the CES Pie chart. What determines green, red, violet??? Is it signal strength? distance, a combo of them both? Second I live in a part of our grand nation where the local affilate for ABC has choose not to broadcast in HD, so while this may seem like a stupid question I will ask it anyway. Just because I am using a HDTV antenna does not mean I cannot recieve the standard analog channels on the same antenna, correct? I am currently using a HDTV antenna I bought from Radio Shack and I am not sure of the model, but it is suppose to be good for 70 miles. I have gathered from all the forums that I would do better with a Winegard or Channel Master, but has anyone ever used the AntennaCraft antennas? if so, How do they perform? I am only getting one OTA channel right now and it is in the "RED" slice of pie and I am getting between 85 and 90% Signal. I do have plans to make the investment and improve things, I will probablly be able to go up to about 25ft, and plan on installing a pre-amp and rotor, but my main question is; I am approx. 400ft below the terrain where the broadcast are transmitted and wonder what effect if any this will present? I would also be intrested in knowing how long my drop can be before suffering significant signal loss. Thanks in advance for any and all who reply. I am sure I will have more questions in the future.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *crhinehart* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> HDTV00, thanks for the reply. For clarification, please tell me which antenna you are referring to. The one I am leaning toward at this point is the ChannelMaster 4221A (same as ChannelMaster 3021, as I understand). These are large, outdoor mount antennas. Are you saying that one of these came with your TV? They only cost $25 plus shipping, with a total of about $36 from Warren Electronics.
> 
> 
> Please clarify your comment, if you don't mind. Thanks.



As long as you don't have any multipath issues at your location, the CM 4221 should be a good antenna for your local stations. Five years ago when I bought my first STB, I also bought the 4221 but found that a couple of my locals had lots of dropouts. One station, just 5.5 miles away, sometimes wouldn't even decode. The problem turned out to be multipath...... http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/g...html#multipath 


I then purchased the CM 4228 and my particular multipath issues were resolved. I later read this information, which mentions the multipath issue relating to the 4221.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/glossaryR.html#n4bay 
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/glossaryR.html#n8bay 


If you see a lot of ghosting with your local analog stations, then you may experience some multipath issues with DTV.


Steve


----------



## texasbrit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wtxlonghorn* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ok I will preface this by stating the obvious, I am a newbie. I am trying to pickup my "locals" OTA and have several questions. My first question involves the CES Pie chart. What determines green, red, violet??? Is it signal strength? distance, a combo of them both? .



OK, for us to help you we need to know a bit more about your situation. First, go back to antennaweb, put in your exact address (not just your zip code) and then copy/paste the complete results into your reply to this post.

Second, are you looking just for digital stations or do you really need analog as well? This will probably have a big input on any antenna recommendation, beacause most (not all) digitals are on UHF, and many analog stations are on VHF. In particular many of the network affiliates use VHF-lo (channels 2-7) for their analog station, and VHF-lo requires much larger antennas (it's just physics).


The color code on the antenna selection chart is based on how much antenna gain you need to get stable reception, so it is the signal strength at your location that determines the color code for a particular station, This is a function of the transmitter power, distance and the terrain at your particular location.


You can forget anything on the antenna box that says "70 miles", it's completely unscientific. Even the color coding is only an approximation. If you post your antennaweb results we can give you some comments on your current antenna (if you can find out which model it is), and some recommendations based around how antennas actually perform in real-world situations.


----------



## hdtv00

Sorry crhinehart I meant the post above yours where he was talking about that little terk antenna. I have that and it does work but it doesn't work well enough not to wanna strangle someone and Im only 12.5 miles from tower farm. Im on 2nd floor apt pointing the exact direction of them and still get drop outs using it from time to time. I want drop free reception. It was nyprimus4 that I meant the reply for, sorry for the confusion.


Im not using the stealth master or something , the plane with wings looking one and it works well too now if I could just find the sweet spot. It was given to me so I thought id try and see what results I could get before I went with something better.


It seems to work but again kinda hit and miss better than the mini terk looking thing but still not perfect all the time.


----------



## beanpod




> Quote:
> Currently using a CM Stealth with amplifier card mounted outside about 25 feet high pointed toward the 312 degree antenna farm...no rotary. At 312 deg I get WRAL and WNCN are fairly consistant. My local Greenville stations and even the New Bern station are solid. Omnidirection reception is a strength of the Stealth.
> 
> 
> I want to tap solidly into all stations at the 312 deg antenna farm without a rotary and without losing my local stations. I am considering a CM 4221 plus amplifier because it might pick up New Bern on the back side and also CBS out of Greenville is VHF. Second consideration is 4228, but I understand it to be more directional. If I must, I'll install a rotary, but I wanted to toss this out for suggestion before making a decision.
> 
> 
> Any options/combinations/suggestions, etc welcome. Thanks in advance.
> 
> 
> Below are my AntennaWeb results. And BTW, my local FOX hasn't even begun digital broadcast and is a primary reason for interest in the Raleigh antenna farm.
> 
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf WEPX-DT 38 MNT GREENVILLE NC TBD 29° 18.3 38
> 
> * yellow - vhf WNCT-DT 9.1 CBS GREENVILLE NC 38° 17.0 10
> 
> * yellow - uhf WITN-DT 7.1 NBC WASHINGTON NC 38° 17.0 32
> 
> * yellow - uhf WCTI-DT 12.1 ABC NEW BERN NC 114° 11.9 48
> 
> * yellow - uhf WUNM-DT 19.1 PBS JACKSONVILLE NC 114° 11.9 18
> 
> * green - uhf WYDO-DT 21 FOX GREENVILLE NC TBD 34° 22.6 21
> 
> * green - uhf WUNK-DT 25.1 PBS GREENVILLE NC 2° 28.0 23
> 
> * blue - uhf WNCN-DT 17.1 NBC GOLDSBORO NC 312° 66.4 55
> 
> * blue - uhf WRAL-DT 5.1 CBS RALEIGH NC 312° 66.4 53
> 
> * blue - uhf WRAZ-DT 50.1 FOX RALEIGH NC 312° 66.4 49
> 
> * violet - uhf WTVD-DT 11.1 ABC DURHAM NC 312° 66.4 52
> 
> * violet - uhf WPXU-DT 35.1 MNT JACKSONVILLE NC 182° 43.9 34



First, thanks to MAX HD and texasbrit for the earlier responses to my inquiry.


Now I'm leaning toward the 4228 shooting to 312* from inside my attic. 312* is almost square to my west gable and if I attic mount the 4228, I won't have to beef up my current outdoor pole and wind load issue is nullified. Line of sight is clear.


I may have one issue though and request input.


My west gable has a window (36"x28") in center, but exterior has ALUMINUM SIDING. Gut instinct tells me the siding will be trouble. Those of you with knowledge, I will appreciate a response. Thanks in advance.


----------



## newbeestl

Hi, I'm looking to rig up for OTA HD signals from St. Louis. Below are my results from AntennaWeb after my exact address was entered. I don't really need to receive VHF since I also have cable running into my tv. I already have a pole outside so I will probably mount the antenna on it. The pole is about 20 feet high. Any recommendations would be appreciated! Thanks!


red - uhf KTVI-DT 2.1 FOX ST. LOUIS MO 263° 41.9 43

red - uhf KMOV-DT 4.1 CBS ST. LOUIS MO 262° 38.0 56

red - uhf KDNL-DT 30.1 ABC ST. LOUIS MO 268° 39.2 31

red - uhf KPLR-DT 11.1 CW ST. LOUIS MO 267° 39.0 26

blue - uhf KSDK-DT 5.1 NBC ST. LOUIS MO 266° 39.4 35


----------



## texasbrit

Suggest you use a CM4228.......


----------



## texasbrit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *beanpod* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> First, thanks to MAX HD and texasbrit for the earlier responses to my inquiry.
> 
> 
> Now I'm leaning toward the 4228 shooting to 312* from inside my attic. 312* is almost square to my west gable and if I attic mount the 4228, I won't have to beef up my current outdoor pole and wind load issue is nullified. Line of sight is clear.
> 
> 
> I may have one issue though and request input.
> 
> 
> My west gable has a window (36"x28") in center, but exterior has ALUMINUM SIDING. Gut instinct tells me the siding will be trouble. Those of you with knowledge, I will appreciate a response. Thanks in advance.



I think your situation is a bit more complex than we had thought. With the CM4228 you are probably not going to get several of the channels without a rotor. So are you talking about trying to combine the two antennas? Combining antennas is a real challenge because the signals from the two antennas are out of phase with each other and so you are essentially creating multipath which is a killer for digital signals. Also just FYI you will have a couple more VHF stations to contend with in 2009 when analog goes away. WTVD is going back to channel 11 and WCTI is going back to channel 12. Although the CM4228 (in theory a UHF-only antenna)has OK performance on VHF-hi if WTVD is still rated "violet" when it goes back to VHF (don't know if it will be, depends on all sorts of factors) then this would be a stretch for a CM4228. You may need a VHF-hi band antenna for this, or you may need to go right now for a good VHF/UHF combination antenna on a rotor.


----------



## newbeestl




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasbrit* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Suggest you use a CM4228.......



Was that directed at me? Do you think that would be good enough? I was kind of thinking the AntennasDirect 91XG.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newbeestl* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Was that directed at me? Do you think that would be good enough? I was kind of thinking the AntennasDirect 91XG.



The XG-91 may well work just fine for you, even after the analog shutdown in February, 2009. We are now close enough to 2009 that whether the local upper VHF 7 to 13 stations will switch back to 7 to 13 (as is common) or whether any of the low VHF (2 to 6) will switch to low VHF (not common) has to be taken into consideration when selecting an antenna. However, the FCC list for the 1st & 2nd round digital channel selections for the post-shutdown era show that all of your VHF locals in St. Louis have opted to stay at UHF. This includes KPLR-DT CW 11 which will stay on UHF 26.


The CM 4228 is more widely recommended here than the XG-91 in part because the 4228 8 Bay design has decent response for upper VHF (7 to 13). The XG-91 is a UHF only antenna so it should be used for UHF stations only. In your case, unless there are more distant digital stations on or will be on upper VHF that you may want to try to get, the XG-91 will be ok. However, you are only 40 miles from the broadcast towers and in the flatter terrain of the mid-west, this is normally not considered a challenging or very long range application. There are any number of UHF antennas that should work just fine.


----------



## WS65711

I need to find the right size F-connectors to match to some existing RG-59 (I know, I know) cable runs in my house. The outer jacket of the cable is approx .22 inches diameter and the dielectric is approx .13 inches diameter. All of the RG-59 connectors I can find at Lowe's, Home Depot, and Radio Shack have an outer sleeve that is way too large of diameter for this cable, and will obviously never crimp down properly.
























Can someone direct me to a source for connectors that properly fit the existing cable I have to work with?


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WS65711* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I need to find the right size F-connectors to match to some existing RG-59 (I know, I know) cable runs in my house. The outer jacket of the cable is approx .22 inches diameter and the dielectric is approx .13 inches diameter. All of the RG-59 connectors I can find at Lowe's, Home Depot, and Radio Shack have an outer sleeve that is way too large of diameter for this cable, and will obviously never crimp down properly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone direct me to a source for connectors that properly fit the existing cable I have to work with?



You can almost always get connectors to crimp down to a thinner outer jacket by putting some shim stock, like manilla folder paper, in the crimper's jaws.


----------



## LucasD

Hello gurus... Great forum.


I just purchased a Panasonic HDTV with a built in tuner.


I connected it to my roof-top antenna, which is a standard UHF/VHF model from Radio Shack. I think it's about four feet in length. All of my HD channels came in great, but the channel I liked best, 36.1, would become slightly pixilated and drop audio for a second or two every couple of minutes.


Being a noob I figured I needed a better HD antenna, so I ordered a DB2 from Antennas Direct and installed it directly below my current antenna. I also ordered a signal combiner and connected my UHF/VHF antenna to the VHF input and the DB2 to the UHF input.


Much to my disappointment, channel 36.1 still exhibited the pixilation and audio drop outs. In addition to that, I found that when it rains channel 12.1 becomes very pixilated and will often drop out. This was very upsetting during Monday night football.










After doing some more reading, I'm beginning to think I'm suffering from multipath issues, rather than signal issues. The TV reports channel 36.1 as having a signal strength of 94% or better, even when it drops out a bit. Channel 12.1 drops to 74% as it becomes pixilated and eventually drops out. How can I discern between a weak signal and multipath problems? Also, if you believe it to be a multipath issue, can you recommend a better Antenna setup based upon my AntennaWeb data shown below?


I am in a single story house, surrounded by large trees.


* yellow - uhf WISN-DT 12.1 ABC MILWAUKEE WI 85° 4.9 34

* yellow - uhf WITI-DT 6.1 FOX MILWAUKEE WI 32° 6.2 33

* yellow - uhf WDJT-DT 58.1 CBS MILWAUKEE WI 85° 4.8 46

* yellow - uhf WTMJ-DT 4.1 NBC MILWAUKEE WI 99° 6.2 28

* yellow - vhf WMVS-DT 10.1 PBS MILWAUKEE WI 97° 6.0 8

* yellow - uhf WMVT-DT 36.1 PBS MILWAUKEE WI 97° 6.0 35

* yellow - uhf WPXE-DT 55.1 i KENOSHA WI 97° 6.0 40

* yellow - uhf WJJA-DT 48 IND RACINE WI TBD 102° 6.3 48

* yellow - uhf WCGV-DT 24.1 MNT MILWAUKEE WI 97° 6.0 25

* green - uhf WVTV-DT 18.1 CW MILWAUKEE WI 97° 6.0 61

* red - uhf WVCY-DT 30.1 REL MILWAUKEE WI 97° 6.0 22


----------



## crhinehart




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *goldrich* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As long as you don't have any multipath issues at your location, the CM 4221 should be a good antenna for your local stations. Five years ago when I bought my first STB, I also bought the 4221 but found that a couple of my locals had lots of dropouts. One station, just 5.5 miles away, sometimes wouldn't even decode. The problem turned out to be multipath...... I then purchased the CM 4228 and my particular multipath issues were resolved. I later read this information, which mentions the multipath issue relating to the 4221. If you see a lot of ghosting with your local analog stations, then you may experience some multipath issues with DTV.
> 
> 
> Steve



Thanks, Steve.


1) How would I know whether or not I have multipath issues before purchasing and installing a 4221? I measured my attic space, and I have the room for a 4228 (40x40) with no problem. I'm not trying to throw money away, but should I go ahead and spring for the 4228? I have no idea what my reception would be., as I currently have no HDTV (although I just ordered the Samsung from J&R for $159, backordered) Maybe I should connect a set of rabbit ears in the attic just to get an idea what it's like. Thoughts?


2) The coax (RG-6) run between the attic and my theater room is presently unterminated. I used to work with twinax cable and there was a little kit thing that was self-contained. It had a screw-on sort of end and didn't, as I recall, require a special too. Is there any to terminate RG-6 without buying a $40 tool or paying someone $75 for a service call?


3) How do I feed the signal from my antenna AND the cable television feed into the Samsung, when I get it?


Thanks to all for your input!


----------



## Chardog

I need a little bit of help:


yellow - uhf KABC-DT 7.1 ABC LOS ANGELES CA 18° 28.5 53

* yellow - uhf KCET-DT 28.1 PBS LOS ANGELES CA 18° 28.5 59

* yellow - uhf KCOP-DT 13.1 MNT LOS ANGELES CA 17° 28.6 66

* yellow - uhf KFTR-DT 46.1 TFA ONTARIO CA 18° 28.5 29

* yellow - uhf KAZA-DT 54.1 AZA AVALON CA TBD 18° 28.5 47

* yellow - uhf KNBC-DT 4.1 NBC LOS ANGELES CA 18° 28.5 36

* yellow - uhf KJLA-DT 57.1 IND VENTURA CA 18° 28.5 49

* yellow - uhf KPXN-DT 30.1 i SAN BERNARDINO CA 19° 27.9 38

* yellow - uhf KRCA-DT 62.1 IND RIVERSIDE CA 19° 27.9 68

* yellow - uhf KXLA-DT 44.1 IND RANCHO PALOS VERDES CA 18° 28.5 51

* yellow - uhf KVEA-DT 39 TEL CORONA CA TBD 19° 27.9 39

* yellow - uhf KTBN-DT 23.1 TBN SANTA ANA CA 18° 28.5 23

* yellow - uhf KTTV-DT 11.1 FOX LOS ANGELES CA 18° 28.5 65

* yellow - uhf KMEX-DT 34.1 UNI LOS ANGELES CA 18° 28.5 35

* yellow - uhf KTLA-DT 5.1 CW LOS ANGELES CA 18° 28.5 31

* yellow - uhf KCAL-DT 9.1 IND LOS ANGELES CA 18° 28.5 43

* yellow - uhf KCBS-DT 2.1 CBS LOS ANGELES CA 17° 28.6 60

* yellow - uhf KOCE-DT 50.1 PBS HUNTINGTON BEACH CA 18° 28.5 48

* yellow - uhf KDOC-DT 56.1 IND ANAHEIM CA 18° 28.5 32


I receive signal at 86% with my pre-amp / amp


but on certain channels, it fluctuates badly; it'll go from 60-80 and major blockage occurs. How can I get a solid 86 or anything solid? Why would my signal fluctuate like that?


I have 2 tv's and both have the same problem. Channel 5.1 seems good and solid, but 4.1, 7.1 and a bunch of others have the fluctuating problem.


----------



## beanpod




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasbrit* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think your situation is a bit more complex than we had thought. With the CM4228 you are probably not going to get several of the channels without a rotor. So are you talking about trying to combine the two antennas? Combining antennas is a real challenge because the signals from the two antennas are out of phase with each other and so you are essentially creating multipath which is a killer for digital signals. Also just FYI you will have a couple more VHF stations to contend with in 2009 when analog goes away. WTVD is going back to channel 11 and WCTI is going back to channel 12. Although the CM4228 (in theory a UHF-only antenna)has OK performance on VHF-hi if WTVD is still rated "violet" when it goes back to VHF (don't know if it will be, depends on all sorts of factors) then this would be a stretch for a CM4228. You may need a VHF-hi band antenna for this, or you may need to go right now for a good VHF/UHF combination antenna on a rotor.



Rats!! You figured my objective correct and I really appreciate your taking the time to assess my situation. I was confused about multi-path. I read the multi-path links posted earlier, but still couldn't ascertain whether multi-path becomes an issue upon combining coax from 2 antennas, just how the sgnal reaches an antenna. Makes sense though. What MAX HD mentioned about a combiner with signal separation is clearer now. Thanks for the WTVD/WCTI VHF move info. The plot thickens...and leads to new questions.


1) From what I've read, seems the 4221 is a bit better for upper VHF compared to the 4228. True or False??


Assuming roof mounted with rotor...


2) Would 4228 plus 7777 amp overload reception for my 12-24 mile range locals and cause multi-path issues??


3) Could the 4228 without amp pull in the 312*, 64 mile stations with confidence??


4) Could the 4221 plus 7777 amp pull in the 312* stations and be OK with locals??


5) Finally, any recommendations for a good VHF/UHF combination antenna??


Thanks again in advance.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Chardog* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I need a little bit of help:
> 
> 
> I receive signal at 86% with my pre-amp / amp
> 
> 
> but on certain channels, it fluctuates badly; it'll go from 60-80 and major blockage occurs. How can I get a solid 86 or anything solid? Why would my signal fluctuate like that?
> 
> 
> I have 2 tv's and both have the same problem. Channel 5.1 seems good and solid, but 4.1, 7.1 and a bunch of others have the fluctuating problem.



Do I read that correctly that you have both a preamp and an amp? If so, eliminate one of the two.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Chardog* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I need a little bit of help:
> 
> 
> yellow - uhf KABC-DT 7.1 ABC LOS ANGELES CA 18° 28.5 53
> 
> [and other LA stations]
> 
> 
> I receive signal at 86% with my pre-amp / amp
> 
> 
> but on certain channels, it fluctuates badly; it'll go from 60-80 and major blockage occurs. How can I get a solid 86 or anything solid? Why would my signal fluctuate like that?



What antenna are you using? Indoor or outdoor rooftop setup? You should not be using both a pre-amp AND a amp if you are doing so. You may be getting some multipath and a better antenna or a better position might fix that.


----------



## texasozzie

It was suggested by several people on here to get the Channel Master 4221, but all the stores are carrying is the new CM Stealth 3010. Is the unamplified version of that any good or is it better to order the 4221 online somewhere? If the 4221 is still the hands down winner (I can't find any charts on the 3010), hiw high abave the fenceline should it be mounted (as in 1-10' post or 2-10' posts assuming it is sunk in 2' footer).


----------



## texasbrit

texasozzie. Before we can answer you, give us your zip code, that will help to give you better recommendations.


----------



## texasbrit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *beanpod* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1) From what I've read, seems the 4221 is a bit better for upper VHF compared to the 4228. True or False??
> 
> 
> .



I only have a couple of minutes so I thought I'd respond to this part of your question. Go look at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html You will see that the CM4228 is much better than the CM4221 at VHF-hi. In fact there are really only two UHF antennas that have any sort of performance at VHF-hi, the CM4228 and the Antennas Direct 91XG.


----------



## beanpod




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasbrit* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I only have a couple of minutes so I thought I'd respond to this part of your question. Go look at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html You will see that the CM4228 is much better than the CM4221 at VHF-hi. In fact there are really only two UHF antennas that have any sort of performance at VHF-hi, the CM4228 and the Antennas Direct 91XG.



The "Using UHF for VHF" graph does show better gain with the 4228. Unfortunately the 91XG wasn't shown on that graph. In the "UHF only" graph, the 91XG actually looks like it has better net gain compared to the 4228. The 91XG is a long puppy though. Wind load is a concern and why I had interest in the 4221 plus amp.


Range for the 91XG is shown to be 50-70+ miles (assume w/o amp). Do you think it would be OK for station in the 12-24 mile range??


What's the difference between dBi and dBd and which is more relavent?? Also, considering I already have one local DT transmitting at frequency 10 and another planned to move to 12 in 2009, what might be a suggested minimum VHF gain for 12-24 miles??


Again all input appreciated and again...Thanks.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *crhinehart* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks, Steve.
> 
> 
> 1) How would I know whether or not I have multipath issues before purchasing and installing a 4221? I measured my attic space, and I have the room for a 4228 (40x40) with no problem. I'm not trying to throw money away, but should I go ahead and spring for the 4228? I have no idea what my reception would be., as I currently have no HDTV (although I just ordered the Samsung from J&R for $159, backordered) Maybe I should connect a set of rabbit ears in the attic just to get an idea what it's like. Thoughts?
> 
> 
> 2) The coax (RG-6) run between the attic and my theater room is presently unterminated. I used to work with twinax cable and there was a little kit thing that was self-contained. It had a screw-on sort of end and didn't, as I recall, require a special too. Is there any to terminate RG-6 without buying a $40 tool or paying someone $75 for a service call?
> 
> 
> 3) How do I feed the signal from my antenna AND the cable television feed into the Samsung, when I get it?
> 
> 
> Thanks to all for your input!



1) I was assuming you owned an analog TV with rabbit ears/UHF loop that would give you an idea as to how your analog reception is. This is usually, but not always, a pretty good way to gauge what your digital reception will be like. If the analog screen indicates a lot of ghosts, or ghosting around objects, more than likely there is multipath in your area.


2) You could try some of the screw-on F-connectors, but I've never had much luck with them. Sometimes you can find really good prices (cheap) on a coaxial cable stripper and crimp tool at local hardware stores or online. Or you could replace your current coaxial cable with new cable that already has the end connectors in place. I don't know what else to tell you there.


3) Unless the Samsung receiver has more than one antenna/cable input, you'll need something like this, which is popular around here.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 

I've also seen a model similar to this at Fry's Electronics, if you have one nearby.


Steve


----------



## texasbrit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *beanpod* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The "Using UHF for VHF" graph does show better gain with the 4228. Unfortunately the 91XG wasn't shown on that graph. In the "UHF only" graph, the 91XG actually looks like it has better net gain compared to the 4228. The 91XG is a long puppy though. Wind load is a concern and why I had interest in the 4221 plus amp.
> 
> 
> Range for the 91XG is shown to be 50-70+ miles (assume w/o amp). Do you think it would be OK for station in the 12-24 mile range??
> 
> 
> What's the difference between dBi and dBd and which is more relavent?? Also, considering I already have one local DT transmitting at frequency 10 and another planned to move to 12 in 2009, what might be a suggested minimum VHF gain for 12-24 miles??
> 
> 
> Again all input appreciated and again...Thanks.



The CM4228 and the 91XG are in general very similar in performance. A few people who have done comparitive testing have come out in favor of one over the other in their particular location, but with no majority one way or the other. They are both great antennas. If you look at the net gain graphs, the CM4228 has better performance until you get up to channel 52 or so. And after 2009 there will be no channels above 52 anyway. But remember the graphs are only based on simulations although real-world experience seems to support the data. Both antennas should be fine with VHF-hi at only 12-24 miles.


The CM4228 has higher wind-loading than the 91XG because it has a large area exposed to the wind - you may need a heavier-duty rotor. But the 91XG as you say is very long. The CM4228 has a much wider beamwidth than the 91XG meaning it can capture stations at 10-15 degrees away from where it is pointed; that's good because sometimes it means you can do without a rotor. The 91XG is very directional, but that makes it better at resisting multipath. So whatever you do it's a tradeoff.


The CM4221 is a great UHF antenna if it has enough gain for your location. It also has a very wide beamwidth. You would have to try it out and see what you get. Its VHF-hi performance according to the graphs is fairly weak although in the real world it seems to perform better than that. But you probably won't get WTVD when it goes back to channel 11 - even with the CM4228 or the 91XG.


You've got to be careful with your choice of preamp otherwise the close-in local stations will overload it. A Winegard HDP269 might be a better choice than the CM7777.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasozzie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It was suggested by several people on here to get the Channel Master 4221, but all the stores are carrying is the new CM Stealth 3010. Is the unamplified version of that any good or is it better to order the 4221 online somewhere? If the 4221 is still the hands down winner (I can't find any charts on the 3010), hiw high abave the fenceline should it be mounted (as in 1-10' post or 2-10' posts assuming it is sunk in 2' footer).



If you go to the ChannelMaster website and dig up the product catalog, there is a reference page for the CM antennas. The CM Stealth 3010 has an average gain for UHF of -1.6 dB while the CM 4221 is 10.2 dB. In fact, the unamplified CM 3010 has the worse performance number for UHF of all the antennas on the reference page. The only advantage to the CM 3010 is that it may pick up close stations over a wide spread in azimuth and it looks cool (well, maybe to those who don't appreciate the beauty of a antenna that works.







)


Doing a quick lookup of your posts, I see you posted your antennaweb results some months back and you have some upper VHF digital stations. The CM 4221 may not get those stations very well, but it will do a lot better for UHF than the CM 3010. You should post your zip code and situation (house, apartment, rooftop) again, so we can provide more accurate advice. Perhaps start a new thread in the Hardware reception forum as this thread gets hard to follow when we have 4 or 5 people asking for help at the same time.


----------



## beanpod




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasbrit* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The CM4228 and the 91XG are in general very similar in performance. A few people who have done comparitive testing have come out in favor of one over the other in their particular location, but with no majority one way or the other. They are both great antennas. If you look at the net gain graphs, the CM4228 has better performance until you get up to channel 52 or so. And after 2009 there will be no channels above 52 anyway. But remember the graphs are only based on simulations although real-world experience seems to support the data. Both antennas should be fine with VHF-hi at only 12-24 miles.
> 
> 
> The CM4228 has higher wind-loading than the 91XG because it has a large area exposed to the wind - you may need a heavier-duty rotor. But the 91XG as you say is very long. The CM4228 has a much wider beamwidth than the 91XG meaning it can capture stations at 10-15 degrees away from where it is pointed; that's good because sometimes it means you can do without a rotor. The 91XG is very directional, but that makes it better at resisting multipath. So whatever you do it's a tradeoff.
> 
> 
> The CM4221 is a great UHF antenna if it has enough gain for your location. It also has a very wide beamwidth. You would have to try it out and see what you get. Its VHF-hi performance according to the graphs is fairly weak although in the real world it seems to perform better than that. But you probably won't get WTVD when it goes back to channel 11 - even with the CM4228 or the 91XG.
> 
> 
> You've got to be careful with your choice of preamp otherwise the close-in local stations will overload it. A Winegard HDP269 might be a better choice than the CM7777.



Thanks again. At this point, I'll likely go with the 4228 w/o amp to begin with and see how it does. Heck, the ol Stealth is pulling in WNCN and WRAL digital channels at 312* at present, so maybe I'm in a topo sweet spot. I'm thinking a gable mount for the 4228 would be secure...AND Thanks Again!


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *beanpod* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> What's the difference between dBi and dBd and which is more relavent??



dBi is gain over an isotopic antenna; an antenna with no directivity at all.

dBd is gain over a dipole. A dipole has 2.14 dB gain over an isotrope. Either number is valid as along as you use the same standard for your comparisions. Some will contend that companies that use dBd are more honest than those who use dBi.


dBi + 2.14 = dBd

dBd - 2.14 = dBi


----------



## basaywhat

I need some help, I am new to this whole antenna thing I have a pole from previous antenna that I will use to mount a new one up on top of my house. I am just not real sure what i need. I live in zip code 61455 and this is my antennaweb data.


* yellow - uhf WMEC-DT 22.1 PBS MACOMB IL 221° 5.8 21

red - uhf WTJR 16 TBN QUINCY IL 226° 48.9 16

red - uhf WMEC 22 PBS MACOMB IL 221° 5.8 22

blue - uhf KLJB 18 FOX DAVENPORT IA 13° 61.6 18

blue - vhf WQAD 8 ABC MOLINE IL 14° 60.6 8

blue - vhf WGEM 10 NBC QUINCY IL 225° 50.0 10

blue - uhf WRSP 55 FOX SPRINGFIELD IL 125° 78.7 55

blue - uhf WICS 20 ABC SPRINGFIELD IL 125° 77.9 20

blue - uhf WEEK 25 NBC PEORIA IL 78° 59.5 25

blue - uhf WHOI 19 ABC PEORIA IL 76° 57.8 19

blue - uhf WTVP 47 PBS PEORIA IL 78° 58.3 47

violet - vhf KWQC 6 NBC DAVENPORT IA 7° 75.6 6

* violet - uhf KWQC-DT 6.1 NBC DAVENPORT IA 14° 60.5 56

* violet - uhf WQAD-DT 8.1 ABC MOLINE IL 14° 60.6 38

violet - vhf WHBF 4 CBS ROCK ISLAND IL 7° 75.6 4

violet - uhf WQPT 24 PBS MOLINE IL 13° 61.6 24



Can somebody please help me figure out what I need and what to buy so I can get this hooked up. I about to lose my distant networks from Dishnetwork and will not be able to watche the Bears games for the rest of the year.


Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!


----------



## nikov3

i just bought a RCA Amplified Flat-Panel HDTV Antenna Model: ANT537

it picks up the hd channels great but i live near the train station so everytime a train comes by i lose signal to all hd channels.....i am only capable of using an indoor antenna, is there anything i can do to stop this from happening? or a different antenna i can use that might help? i dont know if the tv matters but its a olevia 232v


since everyone seems to be posting the list of channels in their area, heres mine (11219)


* yellow - uhf WNYE-DT 25.1 IND NEW YORK NY 27° 4.7 24

* yellow - uhf WNYW-DT 5.1 FOX NEW YORK NY 17° 8.6 44

* yellow - uhf WPIX-DT 11.1 CW NEW YORK NY 17° 8.6 33

* yellow - uhf WXTV-DT 41.1 UNI PATERSON NJ 17° 8.6 40

* yellow - uhf WNET-DT 13.1 PBS NEWARK NJ 17° 8.6 61

* yellow - uhf WABC-DT 7.1 ABC NEW YORK NY 17° 9.2 45

* yellow - uhf WCBS-DT 2.1 CBS NEW YORK NY 17° 8.6 56

* yellow - uhf WNBC-DT 4.1 NBC NEW YORK NY 19° 9.4 28

* yellow - uhf WNJU-DT 36 TEL LINDEN NJ 6° 6.2 36

* yellow - uhf WPXN-DT 31.1 i NEW YORK NY 6° 6.2 30

* yellow - uhf WWOR-DT 9.1 MNT SECAUCUS NJ 17° 8.6 38

* blue - uhf WNJN-DT 51.1 PBS MONTCLAIR NJ 340° 19.7 51

* violet - uhf WLIW-DT 21.2 PBS GARDEN CITY NY 81° 30.8 22

* violet - vhf WNJB-DT 8.1 PBS NEW BRUNSWICK NJ 283° 26.5 8

* violet - uhf WFUT-DT 68.1 TFA NEWARK NJ 17° 9.2 53


----------



## texasozzie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasozzie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It was suggested by several people on here to get the Channel Master 4221, but all the stores are carrying is the new CM Stealth 3010. Is the unamplified version of that any good or is it better to order the 4221 online somewhere? If the 4221 is still the hands down winner (I can't find any charts on the 3010), hiw high abave the fenceline should it be mounted (as in 1-10' post or 2-10' posts assuming it is sunk in 2' footer).



I am in Houston witihn the 77077 zipcode. AntennaWeb lists the following data for me:


* yellow - uhf KTBU-DT 55.1 IND CONROE TX 154° 13.7 42

* yellow - uhf KPRC-DT 2.1 NBC HOUSTON TX 151° 13.5 35

* yellow - uhf KAZH-DT 57.1 AZA BAYTOWN TX 153° 13.1 41

* yellow - uhf KXLN-DT 45.1 UNI ROSENBERG TX 154° 13.7 46

* yellow - uhf KZJL-DT 44 SAH HOUSTON TX TBD 152° 14.2 44

* yellow - uhf KTXH-DT 20.1 MNT HOUSTON TX 154° 13.7 19

* yellow - uhf KNWS-DT 51.1 IND KATY TX 152° 13.9 52

* yellow - uhf KTMD-DT 47.1 TEL GALVESTON TX 153° 13.1 47

* yellow - uhf KTRK-DT 13.1 ABC HOUSTON TX 149° 13.3 32

* yellow - uhf KLTJ-DT 22.1 DAY GALVESTON TX 141° 37.7 23

* yellow - vhf KPXB-DT 49.1 i CONROE TX 153° 13.1 5

* yellow - uhf KRIV-DT 26.1 FOX HOUSTON TX 148° 13.3 27

* yellow - vhf KUHT-DT 8.1 PBS HOUSTON TX 148° 13.3 9

* yellow - uhf KFTH-DT 67.1 TFA ALVIN TX 153° 13.1 36

* yellow - uhf KHOU-DT 11.1 CBS HOUSTON TX 152° 13.9 31

* yellow - uhf KHCW-DT 39.1 CW HOUSTON TX 151° 13.5 38

* yellow - uhf KETH-DT 24.1 TBN HOUSTON TX 154° 13.7 24


I can't seem to find any information on the CM 3010 and I'm not sure how it compares to the CM4221. I couldn't find this discussed in the thread, but I apologize if I missed it. Thanks for any help anyone can provide on this.


----------



## beanpod




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasozzie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am in Houston witihn the 77077 zipcode. AntennaWeb lists the following data for me:
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf KTBU-DT 55.1 IND CONROE TX 154° 13.7 42
> 
> * yellow - uhf KPRC-DT 2.1 NBC HOUSTON TX 151° 13.5 35
> 
> * yellow - uhf KAZH-DT 57.1 AZA BAYTOWN TX 153° 13.1 41
> 
> * yellow - uhf KXLN-DT 45.1 UNI ROSENBERG TX 154° 13.7 46
> 
> * yellow - uhf KZJL-DT 44 SAH HOUSTON TX TBD 152° 14.2 44
> 
> * yellow - uhf KTXH-DT 20.1 MNT HOUSTON TX 154° 13.7 19
> 
> * yellow - uhf KNWS-DT 51.1 IND KATY TX 152° 13.9 52
> 
> * yellow - uhf KTMD-DT 47.1 TEL GALVESTON TX 153° 13.1 47
> 
> * yellow - uhf KTRK-DT 13.1 ABC HOUSTON TX 149° 13.3 32
> 
> * yellow - uhf KLTJ-DT 22.1 DAY GALVESTON TX 141° 37.7 23
> 
> * yellow - vhf KPXB-DT 49.1 i CONROE TX 153° 13.1 5
> 
> * yellow - uhf KRIV-DT 26.1 FOX HOUSTON TX 148° 13.3 27
> 
> * yellow - vhf KUHT-DT 8.1 PBS HOUSTON TX 148° 13.3 9
> 
> * yellow - uhf KFTH-DT 67.1 TFA ALVIN TX 153° 13.1 36
> 
> * yellow - uhf KHOU-DT 11.1 CBS HOUSTON TX 152° 13.9 31
> 
> * yellow - uhf KHCW-DT 39.1 CW HOUSTON TX 151° 13.5 38
> 
> * yellow - uhf KETH-DT 24.1 TBN HOUSTON TX 154° 13.7 24
> 
> 
> I can't seem to find any information on the CM 3010 and I'm not sure how it compares to the CM4221. I couldn't find this discussed in the thread, but I apologize if I missed it. Thanks for any help anyone can provide on this.



I haven't tried the 4221, but I have the CM3010 Stealthtenna with built-in amp board (part # CM3018 I think). It's about 25' high, no rotator and aimed towards an antenna farm 312* west at 64 miles and can pull in a couple of high power DT stations fairly consistant. In addition, in pulls solid DT signals from all my local stations at 42* (~ 20 miles) and even 114* (~ 12 miles) from the back side. It's VHF/UHF omnidirectional, low wind load. With your stations at ~ 15 miles, you would have no problem, esp with the amp card. I wish I had a similar situation. I orginally got it for VHF only some years ago, but it has performed well for UHF. Good Luck.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasozzie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I can't seem to find any information on the CM 3010 and I'm not sure how it compares to the CM4221. I couldn't find this discussed in the thread, but I apologize if I missed it. Thanks for any help anyone can provide on this.



You must have missed my post just a few messages back on the CM 3010 specs on the channel master website. Channel Master's own spec sheet gives it a much poorer gain performance for UHF compared to the CM 4221 or every other antenna on their spec sheet. Go to http://www.pctinternational.com/chan...mentation.html and download the the Channel Master TV 5 catalog. Page 4 has their antenna reference chart.


You are close to your broadcast stations, but several are digitally broadcasting on VHF, including one on VHF 5. The CM 3010 is likely to get the VHF stations, so it does have that advantage over the CM 4221.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *basaywhat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I need some help, I am new to this whole antenna thing I have a pole from previous antenna that I will use to mount a new one up on top of my house. I am just not real sure what i need. I live in zip code 61455 and this is my antennaweb data.
> 
> ...
> 
> Can somebody please help me figure out what I need and what to buy so I can get this hooked up. I about to lose my distant networks from Dishnetwork and will not be able to watche the Bears games for the rest of the year.



bayaywhat, you are obviously in a challenging situation with only 1 nearby PBS station and the rest of the digital stations some 50, 60, 70 miles away. A useful trick with antennaweb is to click on the options link and enter a high height, say 300 or 500 feet for the antenna; then show digital stations only. Ignore the color code with this height, as you may never get all those stations, but it gives you an idea of where and how far away the digital stations are.


Plugging in 500' for your zip shows stations for ABC, Fox, NBC in Davenport, IA at 14 degrees and at some 61 miles. In another direction at 78 degrees are stations in Peoria, IL at 60 miles in another direction. Two of the stations have their analog channels on VHF (KWQC 6, WQAD 8), but a check of the FCC data for the post-2009 analog shutdown states that both stations will remain at UHF.


You will need that rooftop mount. But since all of your digital stations are at UHF, the 2 long range UHF antennas you should look at are the Channel Master 4228 8 Bay bowtie and the AntennasDirect XG91 combined with a rotator. The XG-91 is lighter than the CM 4228 and may present less stress for high winds on your existing mount. Look up the 2 antennas at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html under the comparing commercial antennas link.


----------



## thp427

Hi,

Just wanted to clarify. A few posts up, towerguy recommended the 1026 antenna for me to pick up a vhf signal at 70 miles. On the sites that sell these, I've seen them recommended for up to 25 miles.


Is this really enough antenna for me, or do I need something that is rated for more distance, like the 4053p or 7080p? I don't know much about these, so sorry for the ignorance.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *thp427* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Just wanted to clarify. A few posts up, towerguy recommended the 1026 antenna for me to pick up a vhf signal at 70 miles. On the sites that sell these, I've seen them recommended for up to 25 miles.
> 
> 
> Is this really enough antenna for me, or do I need something that is rated for more distance, like the 4053p or 7080p? I don't know much about these, so sorry for the ignorance.



Don't go by distance, those numbers are meaningless.


Winegard rates the gain of the 1026 at about 5 db
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/Ya-1026.pdf 


Yet an independant calculation suggests more like 8 to 9 db on channel 3.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


7080P 5 db
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/HD7080P.pdf 

4053P low 6's db
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/HD4053P.pdf 


If you compare the beamwidth's on the polar plots (not the tables), the 1026 has a narrower beamwidth than the 4053P. A narrow beam means more gain. So, the 1026 is better, but not by that much. I can't explain the discrepancy.


If you can find one, the Channel Master Y5-3 has 4.9 db gain for about $30
http://www.starkelectronic.com/acantena.htm#Y5 

The part number Y5-2-6 means that there are 5 different antennas, one for each channel. Y5-3 is the channel 3 part number.


Here's an antenna with 10 db gain on channel 3, the Delhi 10 element channel 3 for model 10Y-3S $ 95.35.
http://www.starkelectronic.com/delhi.htm


----------



## revivalizt

I have Panasonic 42 plasma 60U

My question is :


I just bought the Terk HDTVa indoor antenna for my "Over the Air" HDTV broadcast.

and I know my plasma only has 1 coaxial input ..


I heard that you can add " a signal combiner " so that I dont have to use big external hardware to switch channels between my OTA and Cable..



My question is .. since my indoor antenna is already "amplified" .. should I get a "combiner" that's amplified also .. or a regular cheap combiner should do fine for my Cable TV?


Please I need inputs.



Thank you

Mike


----------



## ctdish

You cannot combine cable and antenna signals except fot the SD cable box output on channel 3 or 4.

John


----------



## goldrich

As ctdish mentioned, you cannot combine those two signals together. You could use an A-B switch to change the input (cable or OTA signal) into your Panny. A couple of examples........
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search


----------



## bobchase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasozzie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am in Houston witihn the 77077 zipcode. AntennaWeb lists the following data for me:
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf KTBU-DT 55.1 IND CONROE TX 154° 13.7 42
> 
> * yellow - uhf KPRC-DT 2.1 NBC HOUSTON TX 151° 13.5 35
> 
> * yellow - uhf KAZH-DT 57.1 AZA BAYTOWN TX 153° 13.1 41
> 
> * yellow - uhf KXLN-DT 45.1 UNI ROSENBERG TX 154° 13.7 46
> 
> * yellow - uhf KZJL-DT 44 SAH HOUSTON TX TBD 152° 14.2 44
> 
> * yellow - uhf KTXH-DT 20.1 MNT HOUSTON TX 154° 13.7 19
> 
> * yellow - uhf KNWS-DT 51.1 IND KATY TX 152° 13.9 52
> 
> * yellow - uhf KTMD-DT 47.1 TEL GALVESTON TX 153° 13.1 47
> 
> * yellow - uhf KTRK-DT 13.1 ABC HOUSTON TX 149° 13.3 32
> 
> * yellow - uhf KLTJ-DT 22.1 DAY GALVESTON TX 141° 37.7 23
> 
> * yellow - vhf KPXB-DT 49.1 i CONROE TX 153° 13.1 5
> 
> * yellow - uhf KRIV-DT 26.1 FOX HOUSTON TX 148° 13.3 27
> 
> * yellow - vhf KUHT-DT 8.1 PBS HOUSTON TX 148° 13.3 9
> 
> * yellow - uhf KFTH-DT 67.1 TFA ALVIN TX 153° 13.1 36
> 
> * yellow - uhf KHOU-DT 11.1 CBS HOUSTON TX 152° 13.9 31
> 
> * yellow - uhf KHCW-DT 39.1 CW HOUSTON TX 151° 13.5 38
> 
> * yellow - uhf KETH-DT 24.1 TBN HOUSTON TX 154° 13.7 24
> 
> 
> I can't seem to find any information on the CM 3010 and I'm not sure how it compares to the CM4221. I couldn't find this discussed in the thread, but I apologize if I missed it. Thanks for any help anyone can provide on this.



Tex,


you will get better data about Houston reception on this thread:

This is the first post, that tells you what to expect.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post4432818 


This is the latest post:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2&goto=newpost 


If you are mounting the antenna outside think about using a CM 3016

If you are mounting the antenna in the attic, think about using a CM 4228


Both antennas can usually be found at Fry's or Lowes.


Call me at the station if you have questions


Bob Chase

Director of Engineering

KHCW-TV (ch39)


----------



## sebenste




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *basaywhat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I need some help, I am new to this whole antenna thing I have a pole from previous antenna that I will use to mount a new one up on top of my house. I am just not real sure what i need. I live in zip code 61455 and this is my antennaweb data.
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf WMEC-DT 22.1 PBS MACOMB IL 221° 5.8 21
> 
> red - uhf WTJR 16 TBN QUINCY IL 226° 48.9 16
> 
> red - uhf WMEC 22 PBS MACOMB IL 221° 5.8 22
> 
> blue - uhf KLJB 18 FOX DAVENPORT IA 13° 61.6 18
> 
> blue - vhf WQAD 8 ABC MOLINE IL 14° 60.6 8
> 
> blue - vhf WGEM 10 NBC QUINCY IL 225° 50.0 10
> 
> blue - uhf WRSP 55 FOX SPRINGFIELD IL 125° 78.7 55
> 
> blue - uhf WICS 20 ABC SPRINGFIELD IL 125° 77.9 20
> 
> blue - uhf WEEK 25 NBC PEORIA IL 78° 59.5 25
> 
> blue - uhf WHOI 19 ABC PEORIA IL 76° 57.8 19
> 
> blue - uhf WTVP 47 PBS PEORIA IL 78° 58.3 47
> 
> violet - vhf KWQC 6 NBC DAVENPORT IA 7° 75.6 6
> 
> * violet - uhf KWQC-DT 6.1 NBC DAVENPORT IA 14° 60.5 56
> 
> * violet - uhf WQAD-DT 8.1 ABC MOLINE IL 14° 60.6 38
> 
> violet - vhf WHBF 4 CBS ROCK ISLAND IL 7° 75.6 4
> 
> violet - uhf WQPT 24 PBS MOLINE IL 13° 61.6 24
> 
> 
> 
> Can somebody please help me figure out what I need and what to buy so I can get this hooked up. I about to lose my distant networks from Dishnetwork and will not be able to watche the Bears games for the rest of the year.
> 
> 
> Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!



Hi basaywhat,


You're in Macomb...ouch. You're a "3 market" area, on the border between

the Peoria, Quad Cities, and Quincy, IL/Hannibal, MO markets.


You will need a rotor and an *outdoor* antenna, given your elevation and location. I'd recommend an XG-91 or a ChannelMaster 4228. The 4228 has a high wind load, and you get a lot of severe weather there. So, I'd go for the XG-91

available at AntennasDirect.com. If you are happy getting just one market, then point it or the ChannelMaster 4228 at Peoria. You may get more games, however, if you are able to pick up Quad Cities and also Quincy, so that's why I'd recommend the rotor. Line of sight is 60 miles from a rooftop, so an indoor antenna will likely yield marginal results.


I'd also get a Winegard AP-8700 preamplifier to lock those signals on bad weather days.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=SAP8700


----------



## hitekfun

Need assist on OTA suggestion.

I'm using the latest DirecTV dish and have an old HD Tivo that can't get the locals in HD.

I would like to add the locals OTA like I did in Dallas. I used a simple TERK there but left it with the house. I'd like a suggestion on the best HD OTA antenna for my location. Really looking for ABC the most.

THANKS!


Here's my AntennaWeb data:

DTV Antenna

Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live

Date Compass

Orientation Miles

From Frequency

Assignment

yellow - vhf WKRN 2 ABC NASHVILLE TN 11° 11.1 2

* yellow - uhf WKRN-DT 2.1 ABC NASHVILLE TN 11° 11.1 27

* yellow - uhf WNPT-DT 8.1 PBS NASHVILLE TN 11° 11.1 46

* yellow - vhf WSMV-DT 4.1 NBC NASHVILLE TN 1° 17.4 10

green - vhf WSMV 4 NBC NASHVILLE TN 1° 17.4 4

red - vhf WNPT 8 PBS NASHVILLE TN 11° 11.1 8

red - vhf WTVF 5 CBS NASHVILLE TN 11° 26.5 5

red - uhf WZTV 17 FOX NASHVILLE TN 1° 17.4 17

red - uhf WHTN 39 CTN MURFREESBORO TN 63° 27.4 39

blue - uhf WJFB 66 IND LEBANON TN 58° 32.5 66

blue - uhf WNAB 58 CW NASHVILLE TN 10° 26.2 58

blue - uhf WUXP 30 MNT NASHVILLE TN 10° 26.2 30

blue - uhf WPGD 50 TBN HENDERSONVILLE TN 30° 45.2 50

* violet - uhf WZTV-DT 17.1 FOX NASHVILLE TN 10° 26.2 15

* violet - uhf WTVF-DT 5.1 CBS NASHVILLE TN 11° 26.5 56

* violet - uhf WNAB-DT 58.1 CW NASHVILLE TN 10° 26.2 23

* violet - uhf WJFB-DT 44.1 IND LEBANON TN 58° 32.5 44

* violet - uhf WNPX-DT 28.1 i COOKEVILLE TN 10° 26.2 36


----------



## drwho9437

So my parents live about 40 miles from both Baltimore and Washington, on the top of a hill in an oak forest. The zip is 21770. I know plenty of theory about of radiation (physicist) however, practice is always best.


It would seem to me that multi path interference could be an issue with all the trees, but in general.


Antennas Direct 91XG and DB8 look like possible picks.


I should say that VHF signals from DC come in strong at this location. They have a medium UHF/VHF radioshack on the roof now. Last year they tried HDTV, but took it back as nothing much came in. I tried to convince them they just should get a better mast and antenna, but anyway.


Antenna web says very different things for slight changes in location near the house. Here is a list of the DT:


* green - uhf WFPT-DT 62.1 PBS FREDERICK MD 222° 8.6 28

* blue - uhf WBAL-DT 11.1 NBC BALTIMORE MD 104° 30.8 59

* blue - uhf WTTG-DT 5.1 FOX WASHINGTON DC 175° 29.3 36

* blue - uhf WRC-DT 4.1 NBC WASHINGTON DC 175° 30.4 48

* blue - vhf WWPX-DT 60.1 i MARTINSBURG WV 289° 45.1 12

* blue - uhf WJLA-DT 7.1 ABC WASHINGTON DC 175° 29.8 39

* blue - uhf WBFF-DT 45.1 FOX BALTIMORE MD 104° 30.9 46

* blue - uhf WNUV-DT 54.1 CW BALTIMORE MD 104° 30.9 40

* blue - uhf WJZ-DT 13.1 CBS BALTIMORE MD 104° 30.8 38

* blue - uhf WUSA-DT 9.1 CBS WASHINGTON DC 175° 29.8 34

* blue - uhf WMAR-DT 2.1 ABC BALTIMORE MD 104° 30.8 52

* violet - uhf WMPB-DT 67.1 PBS BALTIMORE MD 87° 24.5 29

* violet - uhf WFDC-DT 14.1 TFA ARLINGTON VA 175° 30.4 15

* violet - uhf WDCW-DT 50.1 CW WASHINGTON DC 169° 29.9 51

* violet - uhf WHUT-DT 33 PBS WASHINGTON DC TBD 175° 29.8 33

* violet - uhf WETA-DT 26.1 PBS WASHINGTON DC 181° 33.1 27



The strongest VHF signal at the location is:

WTTG 5 FOX WASHINGTON DC 175° 29.3 5



Any advise would be most helpful.


----------



## revivalizt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You cannot combine cable and antenna signals except fot the SD cable box output on channel 3 or 4.
> 
> John




So basicly we can use any switcher.. even the one from Walmart?

Would an expensive switcher do any better?


Do you mind telling me why a "combiner" would not work on Cable+Antenna OTA?


----------



## texasbrit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *revivalizt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So basicly we can use any switcher.. even the one from Walmart?
> 
> Would an expensive switcher do any better?
> 
> 
> Do you mind telling me why a "combiner" would not work on Cable+Antenna OTA?



Because the cable and OTA signals occupy the same frequency band.....


----------



## revivalizt

any good recommendation on which switcher is THE "best" ?

for OTA antenna + Cable ...


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *drwho9437* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So my parents live about 40 miles from both Baltimore and Washington, on the top of a hill in an oak forest. The zip is 21770. I know plenty of theory about of radiation (physicist) however, practice is always best.
> 
> 
> It would seem to me that multi path interference could be an issue with all the trees, but in general.
> 
> 
> Antennas Direct 91XG and DB8 look like possible picks.
> 
> 
> I should say that VHF signals from DC come in strong at this location. They have a medium UHF/VHF radioshack on the roof now. Last year they tried HDTV, but took it back as nothing much came in. I tried to convince them they just should get a better mast and antenna, but anyway.



Your parents are only 30 miles from the stations in both cities, but with a ~70 degree split in azimuth between them. The Channel Master 4228, the XG-91, and the DB-8 are all long range very directional antennas. Your parents would have to use a rotator to switch between the 2 cities with any of these long range types. You should use a medium range antenna with a wide pickup in azimuth.


All of the stations in DC and Baltimore are at full power on their digital broadcast (with 2 exceptions) and currently broadcasting on UHF. With your parents located on a hilltop and using an outdoor rooftop antenna, the tricky part is the wide spread in azimuth between broadcast stations in the 2 cities.


I live in Sterling, VA with the DC stations at 16 miles and the Baltimore stations at 43 miles with a 50+ degree spread in azimuth between the 2 cities. With a Channel Master 4221 4 Bay UHF antenna (combined with a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp) in the attic, I can get all the DC and Baltimore stations along 4 other stations spread around me in azimuth without a rotator. The advantage of the CM 4221 is a wide pickup beam pattern(see the charts at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html ) which should allow your parents to get both Baltimore and DC without having to use a rotator all the time.


The disadvantage of the CM 4221 is that it is a UHF antenna with limited response for upper VHF. I get a good picture for the analog WJLA 7 and WUSA 9 with the CM 4221, but they are only 16 miles away. In February, 2009, after the analog shutdown, channels 7 & 9 in DC and 11 and 13 in Baltimore will switch their digital broadcast to their upper VHF channels. (WRC 4, WMAR 2, WTTG 5 will stay at UHF). So anyone putting an antenna in the area should be prepared for this. My suggestion is to put up the CM 4221 on the pole above the current Radio Shack antenna - if this will work. Use a VHF/UHF combiner for the VHF from the current antenna and the UHF from the CM 4221. This should give you a good setup for all the VHF and UHF analog & digital stations.


You should also check the Baltimore-Washington thread for info if you have not done so: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=517400 .


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hitekfun* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Need assist on OTA suggestion.
> 
> I'm using the latest DirecTV dish and have an old HD Tivo that can't get the locals in HD.
> 
> I would like to add the locals OTA like I did in Dallas. I used a simple TERK there but left it with the house. I'd like a suggestion on the best HD OTA antenna for my location. Really looking for ABC the most.
> 
> THANKS!
> 
> 
> Here's my AntennaWeb data: [trimmed for digital stations only]
> 
> * yellow - uhf WKRN-DT 2.1 ABC NASHVILLE TN 11° 11.1 27
> 
> * yellow - uhf WNPT-DT 8.1 PBS NASHVILLE TN 11° 11.1 46
> 
> * yellow - vhf WSMV-DT 4.1 NBC NASHVILLE TN 1° 17.4 10
> 
> * violet - uhf WZTV-DT 17.1 FOX NASHVILLE TN 10° 26.2 15
> 
> * violet - uhf WTVF-DT 5.1 CBS NASHVILLE TN 11° 26.5 56
> 
> * violet - uhf WNAB-DT 58.1 CW NASHVILLE TN 10° 26.2 23
> 
> * violet - uhf WJFB-DT 44.1 IND LEBANON TN 58° 32.5 44
> 
> * violet - uhf WNPX-DT 28.1 i COOKEVILLE TN 10° 26.2 36



Are you looking to use an indoor, attic or an outdoor mounted antenna? Your stations are mostly in the same direction and up to 26 miles. You have a WSMV-DT NBC 4 broadcasting on VHF 10 at 17 miles, the rest are on UHF. So you need an antenna which can receive upper VHF and UHF. With station up to 32 miles away, you should be looking at a attic or roof top antenna for reliable reception. Look for a medium range UHF/upper VHF antenna for starters.


----------



## drwho9437

While they do live on a hill they aren't the highest point for miles around. What they have is probably a medium direction antenna. They don't care much about he Baltimore, market. It think the trees or the local hill must be somewhat of an issue. Sorry I didn't make it more clear. I will check the BW thread thanks for the pointer.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Your parents are only 30 miles from the stations in both cities, but with a ~70 degree split in azimuth between them. The Channel Master 4228, the XG-91, and the DB-8 are all long range very directional antennas. Your parents would have to use a rotator to switch between the 2 cities with any of these long range types. You should use a medium range antenna with a wide pickup in azimuth.
> 
> 
> All of the stations in DC and Baltimore are at full power on their digital broadcast (with 2 exceptions) and currently broadcasting on UHF. With your parents located on a hilltop and using an outdoor rooftop antenna, the tricky part is the wide spread in azimuth between broadcast stations in the 2 cities.
> 
> 
> I live in Sterling, VA with the DC stations at 16 miles and the Baltimore stations at 43 miles with a 50+ degree spread in azimuth between the 2 cities. With a Channel Master 4221 4 Bay UHF antenna (combined with a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp) in the attic, I can get all the DC and Baltimore stations along 4 other stations spread around me in azimuth without a rotator. The advantage of the CM 4221 is a wide pickup beam pattern(see the charts at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html ) which should allow your parents to get both Baltimore and DC without having to use a rotator all the time.
> 
> 
> The disadvantage of the CM 4221 is that it is a UHF antenna with limited response for upper VHF. I get a good picture for the analog WJLA 7 and WUSA 9 with the CM 4221, but they are only 16 miles away. In February, 2009, after the analog shutdown, channels 7 & 9 in DC and 11 and 13 in Baltimore will switch their digital broadcast to their upper VHF channels. (WRC 4, WMAR 2, WTTG 5 will stay at UHF). So anyone putting an antenna in the area should be prepared for this. My suggestion is to put up the CM 4221 on the pole above the current Radio Shack antenna - if this will work. Use a VHF/UHF combiner for the VHF from the current antenna and the UHF from the CM 4221. This should give you a good setup for all the VHF and UHF analog & digital stations.
> 
> 
> You should also check the Baltimore-Washington thread for info if you have not done so: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=517400 .


----------



## basaywhat

Several people have responded to my telling me to use a 91-XG with a rotor, What is a good rotor to use? I was looking around and there are so many different ones. Which is the best one for what I need?


I want to thank the 2 who answered my first post and have given me some great ideas!


Thanks in advance!


----------



## videobruce

I came across this small, low cost UHF 2 bay antenna for under $20;
http://www.eagleaspen.com/products/products_1.php?id=49 


Of course, if you want to pay almost 3x the price for basically the same thing, this was posted in the 1st post in this thread







;
http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB2_Indoor_antenna.html 


6-8 db gain, increasing w/ frequency,

70-46 degree -3db beamwidth.

13" x 20" (6" deep)


Easily would fit in a closet mounted from the wall or ceiling with a wood block and a 2" PVC pipe. Could also be designed to turn. Perfect for apartments etc. where any outdoor antenna wouldn't work. Replaces a set top Silver Sensor with a far better antenna.


I was impressed with the built quality. The antenna is based on the Channel Master 4228, but only 2 bay instead of eight.


----------



## videobruce

From the same company (importer) they also have a rotor. Looks like the much copied Channel Master design from 25+ yearts ago, but it has a control box that uses a remote control instead of the old style 'motor' and dial design.


What sets this apart is this is the first (that I know of) that uses *DiSEqC code* as in satellite control protocol that eliminates the separate rotor cable, but more so, they claim 2° 2° accuracy using Hall sensors that count every motor revolution. It also provides preamp power.


The only other way to get this 2° accuracy is with a $300+ amateur radio type rotor with a 5 or 6 wire rotor control cable.

http://www.eagleaspen.com/products/products_1.php?id=90 

*But*, I do see three problems;


1. *There is a 2db additional loss*. This is because the downlead goes _through_ the rotor _and_ the control box as opposed to straight from the antenna to your TV.

2. This is fine for one TV, but for multiple sets, *the feed for additional outlets would have to be off the output of the control box*, not up near where the downlead enters the building (attic or crawl space). This is a serious issue with any setup other than one or maybe two TVs', especially where one has a 'weak signal' issue(s).

3. If you need to 'amp' the signal and you have issues with very strong *and* very weak signals, the amp would be after the control box also where additional loss already occured.


For me that is a no-no. That DiSEqC sounds good on paper, but with the small 350ma current limitation, it restricts the size of the motor and puts a serious restraint on the touque of the rotor. Fine for small antennas, but useless for large installs, same problem with FTA dishes.


----------



## hitekfun

I'm trying to do this with in-atic efforts.

I really need to know the best antenna units for my area and for the 30 or so miles i need to pick up a signal from.

Thoughts?


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *basaywhat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Several people have responded to my telling me to use a 91-XG with a rotor, What is a good rotor to use? I was looking around and there are so many different ones. Which is the best one for what I need?
> 
> 
> I want to thank the 2 who answered my first post and have given me some great ideas!
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance!



I'm currently using the CM 9521A, which seems to be rather popular around here, with the 91XG and the Triax Unix 100 (2 ants. horizontally stacked).
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/9521A.htm 

Attached picture shows the 91XG on the left and the Triax on the right.


In the spring I'm replacing the CM 9521A rotor on the right with this stronger, more heavy-duty rotor.
http://www.gigaparts.com/store.php?a...sku=ZYS-G-450A


----------



## bigorange

Here is my antenna web info:


red - uhf WBXX 20 CW CROSSVILLE TN 32° 19.1 20

red - uhf WVLR 48 REL TAZEWELL TN 64° 55.8 48

blue - uhf WKOP 15 PBS KNOXVILLE TN 76° 32.6 15

blue - vhf WVLT 8 CBS KNOXVILLE TN 77° 31.6 8

* blue - uhf WVLT-DT 8.1 CBS KNOXVILLE TN 77° 31.6 30

blue - vhf WATE 6 ABC KNOXVILLE TN 76° 32.4 6

* blue - uhf WATE-DT 6.1 ABC KNOXVILLE TN 76° 32.4 26

blue - vhf WBIR 10 NBC KNOXVILLE TN 76° 32.6 10

* blue - uhf WBIR-DT 10.1 NBC KNOXVILLE TN 76° 32.4 31

blue - uhf WTNZ 43 FOX KNOXVILLE TN 76° 32.4 43

* blue - uhf WTNZ-DT 43.1 FOX KNOXVILLE TN 76° 32.4 34

blue - vhf WDEF 12 CBS CHATTANOOGA TN 227° 68.5 12

blue - uhf WDSI 61 FOX CHATTANOOGA TN 228° 63.0 61

blue - uhf WTCI 45 PBS CHATTANOOGA TN 228° 63.3 45

blue - vhf WTVC 9 ABC CHATTANOOGA TN 228° 67.0 9

blue - vhf WRCB 3 NBC CHATTANOOGA TN 228° 66.9 3

* violet - uhf WKOP-DT 17.1 PBS KNOXVILLE TN 77° 31.6 17

* violet - uhf WFLI-DT 53.1 CW CLEVELAND TN 228° 63.0 42


I'm believe I'm going to set-up the CM-4228 in the attic. I'm mainly interested in the HDTV out of Knoxville at around 30 miles. Might try a CM 7777 preamp with a rotor also just incase I can get more stations than displayed.great site,thanks


----------



## tibidip

Hello all,


I just had my directv service upgraded to the HD package. Unfortunately the installer had to swap out my existing Aspen multiswitch and replace it with a Zinwell WB68 switch. The consequence of this is that I end up losing my OTA reception because the antenna signal was run through the Aspen multiswitch.


From what the installer is telling me there is no output for the ANT In on the Zinwell WB68. Is there an adapter that I can use to run the antenna signal through the Zinwell?


Also is it me or is the OTA HD reception superior to Directv HD? I compare the same programming on the directv and the OTA reception by switching between them using a small portable antenna and I must say that the directv HD cannot hold a candle to the OTA HD reception. Anybody else notice this? It might be function Directv compressing the signal but I don't know.


Any input would be appreciated.


----------



## texasbrit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tibidip* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> 
> I just had my directv service upgraded to the HD package. Unfortunately the installer had to swap out my existing Aspen multiswitch and replace it with a Zinwell WB68 switch. The consequence of this is that I end up losing my OTA reception because the antenna signal was run through the Aspen multiswitch.
> 
> 
> From what the installer is telling me there is no output for the ANT In on the Zinwell WB68. Is there an adapter that I can use to run the antenna signal through the Zinwell?
> 
> 
> Also is it me or is the OTA HD reception superior to Directv HD? I compare the same programming on the directv and the OTA reception by switching between them using a small portable antenna and I must say that the directv HD cannot hold a candle to the OTA HD reception. Anybody else notice this? It might be function Directv compressing the signal but I don't know.
> 
> 
> Any input would be appreciated.



First, OTA vs DirecTV HD. Assuming you have enough signal strength, the OTA will always be better than the DirecTV HD locals because OTA locals are broadcast with MPEG-2 encoding/compression, and DirecTV locals are broadcast in MPEG-4, and there will be some losses in the conversion. This has nothing to do with the "HD-lite" situation, where DirecTV actually reduces the resolution of the signal to save on bandwidth, as far as I know there has been no real move to do this on HD locals because right now the new satellites have plenty of bandwidth. At their best, the HD locals are as good as (or maybe "almost") the OTA channels. The MPEG-4 encoders still have some issues but they seem to be correcting these.


Second, OTA. The reason why the WB68 does not have an antenna input is that in 2007 DirecTV will launch two new satellites, DirecTV 10 and 11. These will broadcast in the Ka-lo band, which overlaps the OTA frequency band. So if you simply diplex the OTA onto the satellite signal, the two will interfere with each other. "Officially" this means you need to run a new cable to each location where you need OTA.

There is a probable solution and it involves the b-band converters, if you have an H20 receiver you should have one of these, the hR20 has two, one for each line. These plug into the inputs of the receiver, and they take the Ka-lo signals and move them to part of the Ka-hi band so the receiver can decode them. There are technology reasons why DirecTV had to do it this way. So if you move the b-band converter to the output of the multiswitch (you will need some additional connectors to change the "gender" of the connections on the b-band converter) this will move the signals into Ka-hi just after the multiswitch. So you can use diplexers to add the OTA signal to the satellite signal and then remove it again at the receiver. The signal path then looks like multiswitch, b-band converter, diplexer (OTA in), cable run,diplexer (OTA out),receiver.

Do this for each cable where you want OTA. If you need OTA on more than one cable you would need a splitter (2-way, 4-way, whatever you need) on the incoming OTA signal so you can route it to the diplexers.

Everyone believes this will work, DirecTV "insiders" have said it will work, but until the new satellites start transmitting in mid-2007 we won't know for sure.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hitekfun* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm trying to do this with in-atic efforts.
> 
> I really need to know the best antenna units for my area and for the 30 or so miles i need to pick up a signal from.
> 
> Thoughts?



All of the digital stations on your list, with the exception of the independent, are in the same direction. As I posted before, you have 1 digital station on VHF 10. The CM 4221 is a good medium range UHF antenna, but that channel 10 is on the iffy side for it. If you have enough room in the attic, the CM 4228 8 bay may be on the overkill side for your stations at the 12 to 26 mile ranges, but it should be able to get the VHF 10 station.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...Winegard rates the gain of the 1026 at about 5 db
> http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/Ya-1026.pdf
> 
> 
> Yet an independant calculation suggests more like 8 to 9 db on channel 3.
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
> 
> 
> 7080P 5 db
> http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/HD7080P.pdf
> 
> 4053P low 6's db
> http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/HD4053P.pdf



You are comparing Winegard's measured gain relative to a reference dipole with HDTVPrimer's "calculated" gain relative to an "isotropic radiator". The numberecl scale you should be looking at on their chart is the one on the right side, not the left side, and it indicates that the calculated gain of that antenna is about 6dBd


Winegard is legendary for furnishing the most inflated performance statistics it can justify, so it is wholly implausible that its actual performance is better than its own published specs.



> Quote:
> If you compare the beamwidth's on the polar plots (not the tables), the 1026 has a narrower beamwidth than the 4053P. A narrow beam means more gain. So, the 1026 is better, but not by that much. I can't explain the discrepancy.



The antenna's gain is what it is. You can't compare gain between two dissimilar antennas by simply comparing the shape of their polar plots. A 1026 antenna is a ten element antenna tuned for channels 2-6 (54Mhz to 88Mhz). A 4053 is a monstrosity whose VHF section is tuned for channels 2-13 (54Mhz to 216Mhz). An antenna that is tuned from front to back for one channel will have a tighter beamwidth than will a broadband antenna with the same gain.



> Quote:
> If you can find one, the Channel Master Y5-3 has 4.9 db gain for about $30
> http://www.starkelectronic.com/acantena.htm#Y5
> 
> The part number Y5-2-6 means that there are 5 different antennas, one for each channel. Y5-3 is the channel 3 part number.



The "5" in the part number "5Y-2-6" means it has five elements: a dipole, a reflector and three directors. The 2-6 is the tuned bandwidth, meaning it is for channels 2 through 6


Edit: While Channel Master and Winegard apended the upper and lower channel numbers to their part number to bracket the tuned high and lowband (1713, for example is ten element, 7-13) after they had discontinued their true cut-to-channel models, it appears that Delhi actually uses separate numerical digits for each tuned channel model.


Winegard and Channel Master stopped making single channel, cut-to-channel antennas a decade ago. I think Jerrold recently started making cheap single channel VHF antennas sold under the Delphi brand name, but I'm not certain of that. I think I saw them in a liked page earlier in this thread somewhere.



> Quote:
> Here's an antenna with 10 db gain on channel 3, the Delhi 10 element channel 3 for model 10Y-3S $ 95.35.
> http://www.starkelectronic.com/delhi.htm



But the linked page says they are out of all but a few channels and will not be restocking. I don't know who esle carries these, or if they are ven still being manufactured.


Where did you get the 10dB gain figure? Does it say if that gain is with respect to dipole rather than isotropic? If not, then subtract 2.2 from the claimed gain figure.


Blonder Tongue, which only publishes honest numbers, says the gain of its BTY-5 cut-to-channel lowband antennas is just 8dB over isotropic, making them about 6dB over dipole, so if you basically put a few more directors on the front of it, you might get another three dB out of such a monstrosity, but consider that Blonder Tongue doesn't even make 10 element lowband antennas because they are rarely needed, and are very vulnerable to wind damage.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> From the same company (importer) they also have a rotor. Looks like the much copied Channel Master design from 25+ yearts ago, but it has a control box that uses a remote control instead of the old style 'motor' and dial design.
> 
> 
> What sets this apart is this is the first (that I know of) that uses *DiSEqC code* as in satellite control protocol that eliminates the separate rotor cable, but more so, they claim 2° 2° accuracy using Hall sensors that count every motor revolution. It also provides preamp power.
> 
> 
> The only other way to get this 2° accuracy is with a $300+ amateur radio type rotor with a 5 or 6 wire rotor control cable.
> 
> http://www.eagleaspen.com/products/products_1.php?id=90
> 
> *But*, I do see three problems;
> 
> 
> 1. *There is a 2db additional loss*. This is because the downlead goes _through_ the rotor _and_ the control box as opposed to straight from the antenna to your TV.
> 
> 2. This is fine for one TV, but for multiple sets, *the feed for additional outlets would have to be off the output of the control box*, not up near where the downlead enters the building (attic or crawl space). This is a serious issue with any setup other than one or maybe two TVs', especially where one has a 'weak signal' issue(s).
> 
> 3. If you need to 'amp' the signal and you have issues with very strong *and* very weak signals, the amp would be after the control box also where additional loss already occured.
> 
> 
> For me that is a no-no. That DiSEqC sounds good on paper, but with the small 350ma current limitation, it restricts the size of the motor and puts a serious restraint on the touque of the rotor. Fine for small antennas, but useless for large installs, same problem with FTA dishes.



What kind of off-air antenna array could this rig not drive? Even if it has five feet of mast above a throw bearing and several antennas, the only time you'd have an exessive load is if the wind was blowing in opposition to your direction of rotation.


Whether 350ma is adequate is determined in part by the gear ratio, and so possibly, they have geared this down a little to increase the force it can generate at the expense of speed of rotation. I've moved a 16 foor dish that weighed about two tons with a 1 amp actuator controller. I only had the breaker trip when the wind was blowing unfavorably.


I don't understand your concern about the 2dB of loss through what I guess is some kind of internal diplexer. The preamp will surely go between the rotor and the antenna, so the output level will be far enough above the noise floor to make that 2dB no more important than having another 30 to 40 feet of RG-6 coax. If you felt that because of some unique combination of strong and weak signals, you would ordinarily have to put the preamp somewhere down the line, then the 2dB of insertion loss will have the same desirable effect on the combined signal level as the additional coax length would have.


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> 1. There is a 2db additional loss. This is because the downlead goes through the rotor and the control box as opposed to straight from the antenna to your TV.



After I posted that it occurred to me, why not just uise a two conductor wire between the control box and the rotor either by soldering a F fitting on each end or changing the fitting on both to some more user frendly jack. You loose the 'one cable' advantage, but so what?


> Quote:
> I don't understand your concern about the 2dB of loss through what I guess is some kind of internal diplexer. The preamp will surely go between the rotor and the antenna, so the output level will be far enough above the noise floor to make that 2dB no more important than having another 30 to 40 feet of RG-6 coax. If you felt that because of some unique combination of strong and weak signals, you would ordinarily have to put the preamp somewhere down the line, then the 2dB of insertion loss will have the same desirable effect on the combined signal level as the additional coax length would have.



I don't like external (inaccessible & subject to the weather) active (or even passive) devices and would go to extra lengths to avoid them. While that isn't always possible usually it is unless you are using a really tall tower and have to run a preamp to receive weak signals.


But, my point is, if you have a mix of very strong *and* very weak signals (over +30db and under -20db) that preamp will be overloaded to some degree without single channel traps. Notice I said 'traps', not a 'pad' which would defeat the purpose of the installation.


> Quote:
> What kind of off-air antenna array could this rig not drive?



Probably nothing as far as actually just turning the antenna. My concern is that rocking back and forth in wind situations without a thrust bearing which almost no one uses (with consumer installs).


My 1 meter FTA disk (Winegard) dish using one of the largest H-H motors (Stab 120) struggles from the furthest western bird back east with that measly 350ma motor. It's only because of the extra gear reduction that it even moves the thing.


And yes, I realize the smallest of motors can do wonders with the right gear reduction..............


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Winegard and Channel Master stopped making single channel, cut-to-channel antennas a decade ago. I think Jerrold recently started making cheap single channel VHF antennas sold under the Delphi brand name, but I'm not certain of that.........


 http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/cutchannel.pdf 


Locate a Delhi distributor through this link.
http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/Del...stributors.htm 


Steve


----------



## mnarracci

I live in Tiverton, RI, and just got a Sony KDS55A2000 SXRD TV. I want to put an antenna in my attic so I can receive OTA HD. I have checked Antenna Web, and the Providence HD towers are all less than 20 miles from my home, and within a few degrees of one another. Boston is about 50 miles. I tried a small Radio Shack antenna in my basement home theater, and could only get the Fox affiliate. I really don't want to put an antenna on my roof. Any suggestions? How is the DB4? Any help is greatly appreciated.


----------



## tibidip




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasbrit* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> First, OTA vs DirecTV HD. Assuming you have enough signal strength, the OTA will always be better than the DirecTV HD locals because OTA locals are broadcast with MPEG-2 encoding/compression, and DirecTV locals are broadcast in MPEG-4, and there will be some losses in the conversion. This has nothing to do with the "HD-lite" situation, where DirecTV actually reduces the resolution of the signal to save on bandwidth, as far as I know there has been no real move to do this on HD locals because right now the new satellites have plenty of bandwidth. At their best, the HD locals are as good as (or maybe "almost") the OTA channels. The MPEG-4 encoders still have some issues but they seem to be correcting these.
> 
> 
> Second, OTA. The reason why the WB68 does not have an antenna input is that in 2007 DirecTV will launch two new satellites, DirecTV 10 and 11. These will broadcast in the Ka-lo band, which overlaps the OTA frequency band. So if you simply diplex the OTA onto the satellite signal, the two will interfere with each other. "Officially" this means you need to run a new cable to each location where you need OTA.
> 
> There is a probable solution and it involves the b-band converters, if you have an H20 receiver you should have one of these, the hR20 has two, one for each line. These plug into the inputs of the receiver, and they take the Ka-lo signals and move them to part of the Ka-hi band so the receiver can decode them. There are technology reasons why DirecTV had to do it this way. So if you move the b-band converter to the output of the multiswitch (you will need some additional connectors to change the "gender" of the connections on the b-band converter) this will move the signals into Ka-hi just after the multiswitch. So you can use diplexers to add the OTA signal to the satellite signal and then remove it again at the receiver. The signal path then looks like multiswitch, b-band converter, diplexer (OTA in), cable run,diplexer (OTA out),receiver.
> 
> Do this for each cable where you want OTA. If you need OTA on more than one cable you would need a splitter (2-way, 4-way, whatever you need) on the incoming OTA signal so you can route it to the diplexers.
> 
> Everyone believes this will work, DirecTV "insiders" have said it will work, but until the new satellites start transmitting in mid-2007 we won't know for sure.




Thanks for your input.


----------



## sjcabby

Will the CM 4228 fit onto the j-mount that DirecTV uses? DirecTV put up a Winegard propeller antenna using a j-mount. I want to mount the CM 4228 onto the j-mount but need to know what else I might need to make it fit. Thanks.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sjcabby* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Will the CM 4228 fit onto the j-mount that DirecTV uses? DirecTV put up a Winegard propeller antenna using a j-mount. I want to mount the CM 4228 onto the j-mount but need to know what else I might need to make it fit. Thanks.



No. The 4228 is much too large and heavy, and has too high of a wind load.


----------



## sjcabby




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No. The 4228 is much too large and heavy, and has too high of a wind load.



That's what I figured. On Saturday a D* tech was at the house and he told me it would be fine. I don't think I believe him.


----------



## Jedah Doma

I've been trying to trudge through this thread, but the length is already quote overwhelming. I'm an HD "noob" with a few quick questions.


Just for the info, I have a Sony CRT 970.


At the moment I have Cox cable. For now I'm getting HD signals from the feed from Cox. I have no idea how or why this works, but suffice to say, I was just happy it did and I could get HD channels. The problem is I don't watch any of the other BS offered with my Cox cable and I have just the basic digital package. Most of the time if the mrs. and I want to watch a show, it's on normal over the air channels.


So, I'm thinking about just dumping the Cox and going with an antenna to watch the HD channels and such. I've seen the stuff at Wal-Mart (your typical Phillips BS antenna), but I'm not sure how good it will perform. I've been scanning through this thread and have seen a lot of thoughts on a good antenna. Most folks in this threads have talked about a channel master antenna that is freaking huge. While I don't doubt the quality, I'm looking for something under the $50. I don't want to spend a lot, but I want something good enough that I can get decent reception.


As others have suggested, I've gone to antenna web and found out all that fun information about the channels and such.


yellow - uhf KSAS-DT 24.1 FOX WICHITA KS 321° 16.8 26

yellow - uhf KAKE-DT 10.1 ABC WICHITA KS 320° 17.3 21

yellow - uhf KSCW-DT 33.1 CW WICHITA KS 321° 18.6 31

yellow - uhf KSNW-DT 3.1 NBC WICHITA KS 320° 16.7 45

red - vhf KWCH 12 CBS HUTCHINSON KS 320° 40.8 12

red - uhf KWCH-DT 12.1 CBS HUTCHINSON KS 320° 40.8 19

red - uhf KSMI-LP 51 AZA WICHITA KS 353° 7.7 51

red - vhf KSNW 3 NBC WICHITA KS 320° 17.0 3

red - uhf KSCW 33 CW WICHITA KS 320° 18.8 33

red - uhf KMTW 36 MNT HUTCHINSON KS 329° 27.9 36

red - uhf KTQW-CA 49 IND WICHITA KS 354° 7.7 49

red - uhf KSAS 24 FOX WICHITA KS 321° 16.8 24

red - uhf K59DA 59 TBN WICHITA KS 2° 8.5 59

red - vhf KAKE 10 ABC WICHITA KS 320° 17.3 10

blue - uhf KFVT-LP 40 IND WICHITA KS 358° 10.6 40

blue - uhf KMTW-DT 36.1 MNT HUTCHINSON KS 334° 26.8 35

blue - vhf KPTS 8 PBS HUTCHINSON KS 319° 40.9 8

violet - uhf KPTS-DT 8.1 PBS HUTCHINSON KS 319° 40.9 29


Basically I want the normal 4 channels plus the CW and anything else is a bonus. Mind you I'm renting a house so I don't really want to tear up my yard or attic with a huge antenna. Thanks for any help in advance and if you need me to clarify anything, just let me know.


----------



## ama299

blue - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.8 32

blue - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.8 35

violet - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL MN 221° 47.8 50

violet - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.5 26

violet - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.5 21


Trying to decide the best antenna for this setup. I was thinking the 91XG antenna would work best, but is there a cheaper one that would work. I'm also having a hard time with the wife "I don't want an ugly antenna on the roof" I live in a wood house no steel do you think I could mount the 91XG in the attic? I know I'm better off with it outside on the roof of my two story house. It's just a pain to get up there. I would need a preamp too.


What are your thoughts?


Thanks


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ama299* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Trying to decide the best antenna for this setup. I was thinking the 91XG antenna would work best, but is there a cheaper one that would work. I'm also having a hard time with the wife "I don't want an ugly antenna on the roof" I live in a wood house no steel do you think I could mount the 91XG in the attic? I know I'm better off with it outside on the roof of my two story house. It's just a pain to get up there. I would need a preamp too.



The 91XG is close to 8 feet long, so you need a lot of room for it. No reason it should not work in the attic, provided the loss from the roof is not enough to cause you to not get those stations. But if those stations are at high power levels, 48 miles is not that far. If the size of the 91XG is a problem, the Channel Master 4228 should do the job as well, but then you have to fit a large 4'x4' square shaped object in the attic. Try the antenna in the attic first, but also don't lock it down in position until you find a good spot with the best signals from the all stations.


----------



## ama299




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The 91XG is close to 8 feet long, so you need a lot of room for it. No reason it should not work in the attic, provided the loss from the roof is not enough to cause you to not get those stations. But if those stations are at high power levels, 48 miles is not that far. If the size of the 91XG is a problem, the Channel Master 4228 should do the job as well, but then you have to fit a large 4'x4' square shaped object in the attic. Try the antenna in the attic first, but also don't lock it down in position until you find a good spot with the best signals from the all stations.



Thanks for the info


----------



## intrac

ama299


Have you looked at this site:

http://www.solidsignal.com/antenna_selector.asp


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jedah Doma* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> IJust for the info, I have a Sony CRT 970.
> 
> 
> At the moment I have Cox cable. For now I'm getting HD signals from the feed from Cox. I have no idea how or why this works, but suffice to say, I was just happy it did and I could get HD channels. The problem is I don't watch any of the other BS offered with my Cox cable and I have just the basic digital package. Most of the time if the mrs. and I want to watch a show, it's on normal over the air channels.
> 
> 
> So, I'm thinking about just dumping the Cox and going with an antenna to watch the HD channels and such. I've seen the stuff at Wal-Mart (your typical Phillips BS antenna), but I'm not sure how good it will perform. I've been scanning through this thread and have seen a lot of thoughts on a good antenna. Most folks in this threads have talked about a channel master antenna that is freaking huge. While I don't doubt the quality, I'm looking for something under the $50. I don't want to spend a lot, but I want something good enough that I can get decent reception.
> 
> 
> As others have suggested, I've gone to antenna web and found out all that fun information about the channels and such.
> 
> 
> yellow - uhf KSAS-DT 24.1 FOX WICHITA KS 321° 16.8 26
> 
> yellow - uhf KAKE-DT 10.1 ABC WICHITA KS 320° 17.3 21
> 
> yellow - uhf KSCW-DT 33.1 CW WICHITA KS 321° 18.6 31
> 
> yellow - uhf KSNW-DT 3.1 NBC WICHITA KS 320° 16.7 45
> 
> red - uhf KWCH-DT 12.1 CBS HUTCHINSON KS 320° 40.8 19
> 
> blue - uhf KMTW-DT 36.1 MNT HUTCHINSON KS 334° 26.8 35 [list of stations trimmed]
> 
> 
> Basically I want the normal 4 channels plus the CW and anything else is a bonus. Mind you I'm renting a house so I don't really want to tear up my yard or attic with a huge antenna. Thanks for any help in advance and if you need me to clarify anything, just let me know.



No one responded to your post, so I hope you see this reply.


Looking at your list of digital stations, they are all currently digitally broadcasting on UHF, you live in rather flat country if I am not mistaken, and the stations are in the same direction, mostly around 20 miles away with the KWCH CBS station at 41 miles. The CBS station comes up red on antennaweb because there is a low power STA entry for it in the FCC database, but there is also a licensed entry for the DT broadcast at a full 1000 Kilowatts. The Wichita area locals thread should be able to tell you if it is at full power.


I would not be surprised if you could get most of the stations with a Silver Sensor UHF antenna mounted inside the side of the house facing the broadcast towers. Maybe even the CBS station given the flat country. Because you do not want to mess with a rooftop antenna because of the rented house, my suggestion is try a AntennasDirect DB-2 or even a Silver Sensor UHF antenna. I have not looked up whether any of the stations will switch their digital broadcast to VHF come February, 2009, but since you live in a rental, I would assume that is not that important. Another possibility is a Square Shooter ir DB-2 mounted on the outside of the house attached to the eaves facing the broadcast towers. You could put that up and take it down without any serious damage to the house besides some easily repaired screw holes. Run the RG-6 cable indoors through a window or service access point.


The Silver Sensor has been sold at some Circuit Cities recently under the Philips brand name, model # PHDTV1, for around $25. If you buy one there, you could take it back if it does not work. You would likely have to buy the DB-2 on-line.


----------



## ama299




intrac said:


> ama299
> 
> 
> Have you looked at this site:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just went to it and filled it out we will see what they say.
> 
> 
> Here is my info from antenna . or
> 
> 
> blue - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.8 32
> 
> blue - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.8 35
> 
> violet - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL MN 221° 47.8 50
> 
> violet - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.5 26
> 
> violet - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.5 21


----------



## akron05

My landlady has informed me that the antenna on my roof does in fact have a rotor, but there's no "control unit" for it. In the basement I found the wire and confirmed that it is in fact connected to the rotor and has three wires inside it.


Is there an aftermarket rotor controller I could try to hook into this to see if it would work??


----------



## akron05

There is a rotor attached to the antenna on my roof. The landlady says it does work but there's no "control box" in the house, the last tenants apparently stole it (they stole a lot of stuff...drug addicts...long story)


So, anyway, the wire comes into the house and is a three-wire system. Is there somewhere I can buy a control box only and hook it up to see how well it works? I don't want to spend $100 or anything...where could I get one?


----------



## videobruce

Flea market and/or Hamfest for starters. You coukld also try people that insdtall antennas, they might have a spare lying around.

You can get a remore control, control box (no motor inside) that will work with most Channel Master rotors and probably the clones for around $60 (I believe).


----------



## DougRuss

Akron05,


Think this will work ?

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/9537.htm 

.PDF


----------



## Morpheus_Rising

You should find out which rotor you have (Manufacturer and model #) to make sure the contoller unit would work with it. Some rotors use 3-wire, others use 5 or maybe 8 wires. Channel Master rotors use 3 wire. Radio Shack uses the Channel Master rotor/controller which can be upgraded to the remote control one.


----------



## Jedah Doma




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No one responded to your post, so I hope you see this reply.
> 
> 
> Looking at your list of digital stations, they are all currently digitally broadcasting on UHF, you live in rather flat country if I am not mistaken, and the stations are in the same direction, mostly around 20 miles away with the KWCH CBS station at 41 miles. The CBS station comes up red on antennaweb because there is a low power STA entry for it in the FCC database, but there is also a licensed entry for the DT broadcast at a full 1000 Kilowatts. The Wichita area locals thread should be able to tell you if it is at full power.
> 
> 
> I would not be surprised if you could get most of the stations with a Silver Sensor UHF antenna mounted inside the side of the house facing the broadcast towers. Maybe even the CBS station given the flat country. Because you do not want to mess with a rooftop antenna because of the rented house, my suggestion is try a AntennasDirect DB-2 or even a Silver Sensor UHF antenna. I have not looked up whether any of the stations will switch their digital broadcast to VHF come February, 2009, but since you live in a rental, I would assume that is not that important. Another possibility is a Square Shooter ir DB-2 mounted on the outside of the house attached to the eaves facing the broadcast towers. You could put that up and take it down without any serious damage to the house besides some easily repaired screw holes. Run the RG-6 cable indoors through a window or service access point.
> 
> 
> The Silver Sensor has been sold at some Circuit Cities recently under the Philips brand name, model # PHDTV1, for around $25. If you buy one there, you could take it back if it does not work. You would likely have to buy the DB-2 on-line.



A big thanks for the response. I will go check out that atenna you sggested. That should be a good solution. I'd have an outdoor atenna without tearing up the house. Thanks again man, you're a life saver!


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jedah Doma* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A big thanks for the response. I will go check out that atenna you sggested. That should be a good solution. I'd have an outdoor atenna without tearing up the house. Thanks again man, you're a life saver!



I don't know about being a life saver, but I will take the thanks. I did not post the link, but just in case you have not seen this handy website for antenna info, it has picture and charts for many of the antennas discussed here: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html . Click on the comparing commercial link.


----------



## sabex

I am looking for a workable indoor antenna that I can use to get my locals channels in HD. Can anyone make a suggestion? Thanks

antennaweb information:

* yellow - uhf WTVR-DT 6.1 CBS RICHMOND VA 328° 14.4 25

* yellow - uhf WRIC-DT 8.1 ABC PETERSBURG VA 328° 14.4 22

* yellow - uhf WWBT-DT 12.1 NBC RICHMOND VA 348° 11.1 54

* yellow - uhf WCVE-DT 23.1 PBS RICHMOND VA 328° 14.4 42

* green - uhf WCVW-DT 23.1 PBS RICHMOND VA 328° 14.4 44

* red - uhf WUPV-DT 47.1 CW ASHLAND VA 29° 28.3 47

* red - uhf WRLH-DT 35.1 FOX RICHMOND VA 328° 14.4 26


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sabex* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am looking for a workable indoor antenna that I can use to get my locals channels in HD. Can anyone make a suggestion? Thanks
> 
> antennaweb information:
> 
> * yellow - uhf WTVR-DT 6.1 CBS RICHMOND VA 328° 14.4 25
> 
> * yellow - uhf WRIC-DT 8.1 ABC PETERSBURG VA 328° 14.4 22
> 
> * yellow - uhf WWBT-DT 12.1 NBC RICHMOND VA 348° 11.1 54
> 
> * yellow - uhf WCVE-DT 23.1 PBS RICHMOND VA 328° 14.4 42
> 
> * green - uhf WCVW-DT 23.1 PBS RICHMOND VA 328° 14.4 44
> 
> * red - uhf WUPV-DT 47.1 CW ASHLAND VA 29° 28.3 47
> 
> * red - uhf WRLH-DT 35.1 FOX RICHMOND VA 328° 14.4 26



First, all of the stations on your list are currently digitally broadcasting on UHF channels (the actual broadcast channel is the last number on the row). All, except for the CW station, are only 14 miles away and in the same exact direction. WRLH-DT Fox 35 comes in with a red color code, but the FCC data base ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WRLH and click on the FCC database link) shows a STA low power of 12.4 KW and a full power construction permit. Check with the Richmond locals thread to find out if WRLH-DT has gone full power or not.


If the CW station is not that important, you should be able to get the locals with an indoor Silver Sensor UHF antenna. Circuit City has been selling them under the Philips band name for $25, model # PHDTV1. If you have an attic, you could consider putting up a Channel Master 4221 4 Bay bowtie UHF antenna. It should get all your stations including the CW station.


----------



## strider209

Sorry if this is a cross post, I'm just trying to get as much info as I can.

First off, I get the following from antennaweb


* yellow - uhf KXTV-DT 10.1 ABC SACRAMENTO CA 320° 25.4 61

* yellow - uhf KSPX-DT 29.1 i SACRAMENTO CA 321° 27.4 48

* yellow - uhf KOVR-DT 13.1 CBS STOCKTON CA 320° 25.4 25

* yellow - uhf KUVS-DT 19.1 UNI MODESTO CA 50° 34.7 18

* red - uhf KTNC-DT 42.1 AZA CONCORD CA 253° 32.4 63

* blue - uhf KCRA-DT 3.1 NBC SACRAMENTO CA 320° 25.8 35

* blue - uhf KTXL-DT 40.1 FOX SACRAMENTO CA 321° 27.5 55

* blue - uhf KQCA-DT 58.1 MNT STOCKTON CA 324° 26.4 46

* violet - uhf KMAX-DT 31.1 CW SACRAMENTO CA 323° 26.7 21

* violet - uhf KVIE-DT 6.1 PBS SACRAMENTO CA 321° 27.5 53

* violet - vhf KNTV-DT 11.1 NBC SAN JOSE CA 241° 63.6 12


I've tried various indoor antennas but I only get a weak signal.

As far as I know the area between me and Sacramento is flat.

There is some overhead powerlines about 1/4 mile north of me and a municipal airport about 2-4 miles east of me. I'm mainly interested in getting the towers in Sacramento (320º-324º) I know 2 stations are planned to switch back to VHF in 2009 but I can deal with those later. If I do a roof mount the run from the antenna to the receiver would be less than 25 ft. Attic mount is preferred but if a roof mount is necessary I would like the antenna to be small/medium sized (i.e. CM 4228 would be too big) From previous suggestions it seems like CM 4221 is the way to go. I'd like to try something local from Radio Shack or Lowes than can be returned if needed before I commit to buying a CM 4221 that would not be returnable. What would be my best bet for an antenna to try? FYI: To my knowledge Lowes carries CM 3010, 3016, 3018 and 3020. They also carry some pre-amps. My budget for antenna/pre-amp is $75 total but less would be better!


----------



## sabex




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> First, all of the stations on your list are currently digitally broadcasting on UHF channels (the actual broadcast channel is the last number on the row). All, except for the CW station, are only 14 miles away and in the same exact direction. WRLH-DT Fox 35 comes in with a red color code, but the FCC data base shows a STA low power of 12.4 KW and a full power construction permit. Check with the Richmond locals thread to find out if WRLH-DT has gone full power or not.
> 
> 
> If the CW station is not that important, you should be able to get the locals with an indoor Silver Sensor UHF antenna. Circuit City has been selling them under the Philips band name for $25, model # PHDTV1. If you have an attic, you could consider putting up a Channel Master 4221 4 Bay bowtie UHF antenna. It should get all your stations including the CW station.



Awesome. I really appreciate the advice.


----------



## High Gear

I have the Directv 5LNB dish and would like to pick up more OTA HD channels with a DB4 or DB8 antenna that I plan to mount in the attic. My question is. I have a double coax cable running to the STB from the dish. One of the cables does not connect to the STB. Can I hook into this coax cable at the dish with a line from the antenna? If so, what would I need to make the connection?


Thanks!


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *strider209* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'd like to try something local from Radio Shack or Lowes than can be returned if needed before I commit to buying a CM 4221 that would not be returnable. What would be my best bet for an antenna to try? FYI: To my knowledge Lowes carries CM 3010, 3016, 3018 and 3020. They also carry some pre-amps. My budget for antenna/pre-amp is $75 total but less would be better!



Well, the Steathtenna there is priced at nearly $65.00 (including tax), and the one CM pre-amp I know of that they sell is well over $10.00. (They do carry a couple of other CM distribution amps, I know - but they are most certainly over $10.00, also.) And I think that even the cheapest full-size UHF/VHF model isn't much cheaper than the Stealth (the 3016?) - if it even actually is. You'd have to go there and price things. You might have to try without the amp first. Plus, you're going to need other installation hardware, remember.


But they are very accomodating, as far as returns go. I've done that many times there myself. Just keep the packaging intact.


I'm pretty familiar with your situation from your other posts, and I understand your hesitance to order online because of your reception troubles so far. If you have a Fry's in your area, they sell the 4228 for $50.00. They also carry the Stealth, and the special amp that goes inside (if you need it - although you can use any amp). I know that Menards sells a large, VHF/UHF Philips model. Home Depot used to carry a mid-sized RCA model, but I know the one by me stopped carrying it. Other than that, all I can think of is Radio Shack. Or Abt's Electronics, if you have one of those around.


I would just go with whatever was suggested to you as far as the CM models at Lowe's in the other posts (I can't recall which offhand). They are very easy to return to. Those guys that replied to you know their stuff pretty good - I would definitely trust them. The Stealthtenna is very easy to assemble and disassemble, if you wanted to just start with that. But if the Radio Shack U75R didn't do the job for you, I doubt if the Stealth will. I just tried both myself, and the U75R was definitely better, on distance, anyway. And the Stealth is ANYTHING BUT directional, if that matters to you. But, if I remember right, you are not that awful far from the towers at all, so anything's possible. You'll probably just have to keep experimenting.


----------



## texasbrit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *High Gear* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have the Directv 5LNB dish and would like to pick up more OTA HD channels with a DB4 or DB8 antenna that I plan to mount in the attic. My question is. I have a double coax cable running to the STB from the dish. One of the cables does not connect to the STB. Can I hook into this coax cable at the dish with a line from the antenna? If so, what would I need to make the connection?
> 
> 
> Thanks!



You can connect the cable from your antenna to the "spare" cable using a barrel connector, just unplug it at the dish, but you should protect this connector from the weather using a cable "boot" and dielectric grease to keep the moisture out. Or if the "spare" cable runs through the attic make the connection there....


Just FYI, the CM4228 is a better antenna than the DB8 and is less expensive. Also if you have any VHF-hi band stations the CM4228 although (like the DB8) it is a UHF antenna has useful reception in VHF-hi, the DB8 is much poorer. And some of your UHF stations may be going back to VHF after 2009 when analog goes away. What's your zip code, it will help us give you advice on antennas....?


----------



## shep22

I am about 50 miles from both Philadelphia and New YorkCity (in Princeton, NJ). Do I have any chance of getting HDTV signals from an outdoor antenna at that distance? I want the PBS channel primarily.


(As of now, I am receiving fair-to-good (but far from excellent) conventional VHF analog TV from both places, with a very good directional rooftop antenna. NYC reception used to be a lot better when I got signals from the top of the World Trade Center)


----------



## High Gear




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasbrit* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You can connect the cable from your antenna to the "spare" cable using a barrel connector, just unplug it at the dish, but you should protect this connector from the weather using a cable "boot" and dielectric grease to keep the moisture out. Or if the "spare" cable runs through the attic make the connection there....
> 
> 
> Just FYI, the CM4228 is a better antenna than the DB8 and is less expensive. Also if you have any VHF-hi band stations the CM4228 although (like the DB8) it is a UHF antenna has useful reception in VHF-hi, the DB8 is much poorer. And some of your UHF stations may be going back to VHF after 2009 when analog goes away. What's your zip code, it will help us give you advice on antennas....?



I'm in central Connecticut at 06109. Thanks for any info!


----------



## bierboy

Welcome to the thread!


You should be able to get UHF digitals (depending on their power) from that distance if you're on the rooftop. But use a good UHF antenna like a Channel Master or Winegard designed for picking up signals from that distance. For Channel Master, I'd use the CM 4221 or CM 4228. Go to www.antennaweb.org then plug in your address, and it'll tell you what to expect (and recommend an antenna type). But be aware -- antennaweb sometimes skews to the conservative side.


----------



## bberkley

I just upgraded to a DirecTV H20 and the Slimline MPEG4 Ka/Ku dish, and only get a few local channels in HD from Portland, but not CBS or ABC. I have an el-cheapo indoor antenna that allows me to pick up KOAC out of Corvallis, and thats the only OTA signal I get right now.


Antennaweb says this for my location:


* yellow - uhf KOAC-DT 7.1 PBS CORVALLIS OR 247° 8.5 39

* yellow - uhf KVAL-DT 13.1 CBS EUGENE OR 164° 44.9 25

* yellow - uhf KEPB-DT 28.1 PBS EUGENE OR 164° 44.9 29

* yellow - uhf KMTR-DT 16.1 NBC SPRINGFIELD OR 155° 37.3 17

* green - uhf KEZI-DT 9.1 ABC EUGENE OR 155° 37.3 44

* red - uhf KOIN-DT 6.1 CBS PORTLAND OR 359° 62.3 40

* red - uhf KPDX-DT 49.1 MNT VANCOUVER WA 358° 62.5 48

* red - uhf KRCW-DT 32.1 CW SALEM OR 359° 62.3 33

* red - vhf KPXG-DT 22.1 i SALEM OR 359° 62.3 4

* red - uhf KOPB-DT 10.1 PBS PORTLAND OR 359° 62.6 27

* red - uhf KGW-DT 8.1 NBC PORTLAND OR 359° 62.6 46

* red - uhf KATU-DT 2.1 ABC PORTLAND OR 359° 62.3 43

* red - uhf KPTV-DT 12.1 FOX PORTLAND OR 359° 62.5 30

* red - vhf KOAB-DT 11 PBS BEND OR FCC Ext 96° 95.9 11

* red - uhf KLSR-DT 34.1 FOX EUGENE OR 163° 44.9 31

* blue - uhf KOHD-DT 51.1 ABC BEND OR TBD 96° 95.9 51


I'm looking at getting a chimney mount, a CM 4228 and a CM 7777 preamp and pointing it to the Eugene market so I can get the rest of the channels I want.


Will the proximity to Corvallis and the use of a preamp overload the other signals?


Should I run it into my Zinwell WB68? Will that allow me to tune the OTA signals from my H20 DirecTV box? Or do I need to split the signal where it comes out of the wall, and run it into the antenna input on my HDTV? Or run it direct to the TV?


----------



## greywolf

The WB68 does not have an antenna input. The Ka band MPEG4 signals used by D* locals includes a 250-750MHz section that overlaps OTA frequencies. They cannot occupy the same cable before reaching the B Band Converter that normally is connected to the rear of the H20. A separate line for OTA until the Sat line reaches the BBC is required.


----------



## bberkley




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greywolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The WB68 does not have an antenna input. The Ka band MPEG4 signals used by D* locals includes a 250-750MHz section that overlaps OTA frequencies. They cannot occupy the same cable before reaching the B Band Converter that normally is connected to the rear of the H20. A separate line for OTA until the Sat line reaches the BBC is required.



So, do I use a diplexer between the BBC and the H20 to feed OTA into the H20? Or just plumb OTA direct to my antenna input on the TV?


----------



## herdfan

A recent problem has developed and I haven't been able to fix it. All of a sudden, I am having touble receiving some of my OTA locals. I know it not my antenna specifically because I can mov it and get a strong signal when I am pointing at a specific tower.


I have a CM 4228 with CM7777 pre-amp. I have removed one of the screens from the 4228 and up until a couple of weeks ago was able to get my locals.


Part of the problem is that my locals are about 120 degrees a part as follows:


FOX (19) and ABC (41) 4 miles at 168 degrees

NBC (23) and CBS (47) 16 miles at 288 degrees


It would be much easier to join two antennas if the lower channels were one direction and the higher ones the other, but that is not the case.


I am willing to try joining two antennas but am slightly confused about how something like a jointenna works. I see specific ones for VHF channels, but on ranges for UFH channels.


Any suggestions as to how to use two antennas with a jointenna to solve my problem?


Thanks.


----------



## Rick0725

a jointenna allows you to insert a signal from another antenna with a specific channel without interference. it can also be wired to be used as a filter attenuating a specfic channel about 20 db.


the vhf models are single channel models. there are 3 uhf models.


UHF Channels Model Number

ch14-29 cm0585-1

ch30-49 cm0585-2

ch50-69 cm0585-3


if you want to insert ch 56 for example you would order#cm 0585-3 for ch 56. jointennas are special order with a 2 week leadtime.


the issue to be aware of is that the uhf jointenna attenuates signals 5 channels either side of the channel you want to insert. If you want to insert ch 56 and you have a ch 54 digital, ch 54 will be attenuated.


to install, there are 2 inputs and 1 output

-antenna in for ch you want to insert (ch 56 for example)

-antenna in for the all channel antenna (cm4228, vhf/uhf combo, etc)

-out to tv.


see picture


at my home, use the 91xg for all channel uhf and insert ch 56 with a jointenna#cm 0585-3 tuned to ch 56. I use a 2 bowtie antenna mounted to the side of the house . The jointenna is mounted near the grounding block.


I also use my old hd8200p for vhf only and combine the uhf after the jointenna with a cm0549 vhf/uhf spliter/combiner, see pic.


works pretty darn good too. Insertion loss is only .5db to boot.


----------



## greywolf

Both diplexers, combining and diverging, need to be between the BBC and the receiver. I'd connect the Ant leg of the bottom diplexer to the H20. It's handier having the OTA channels in the guide.


----------



## christy123

Hey guys!


I just bought a house. I noticed that there are two huge antennas on the roof. I guess they used these for TV in good old days.


I am planning to put up a new roof in a week or so. Should I get rid of those antennae or just leave them there. Do I need to put a new antenna for HDTV or I can get signals from this one ?



Also if I wanted the antenna go to more than one room, how do i do that?


appreciate your help


----------



## tsaksa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *christy123* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey guys!
> 
> 
> I just bought a house. I noticed that there are two huge antennas on the roof. I guess they used these for TV in good old days.
> 
> 
> I am planning to put up a new roof in a week or so. Should I get rid of those antennae or just leave them there. Do I need to put a new antenna for HDTV or I can get signals from this one ?
> 
> 
> 
> Also if I wanted the antenna go to more than one room, how do i do that?
> 
> 
> appreciate your help



There is no significant difference between an old TV antenna, and a "digital" antenna. The new so called "digital" antennas are more likely to be UHF only since most digital stations are in the UHF band. Also, some of the new antennas try to maintain a more modern apperence and smaller size, often at the expense of performance. But other than that, the old designs are usually as good if not better than many of the "digital" variety even for digital reception as long as you do not mind their retro apperance.


The real question is what type of antenna do you have, VHF, UHF, or combined, and is it still in good working condition? Do you know how old it is? Does it look like it was properly installed with grounding blocks etc? Are any elements bent or missing? How is the lead in cable?


Antennas, wires and even the mounts do not last forever. The lower quality ones can degrade quickly when exposed to bad weather, so it is hard to say how servicable yours might be. It is also possible that it was never installed correctly to begin with which could be unsafe. It would be best to have someone who knows what they are doing look at it for you to see if it would be worth keeping.


----------



## coldnorth

the hdtvprimer website is very complete but is hard to read


there are other sites that are easier to read like stallions and howtoinstalltvantennas


----------



## texasbrit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *High Gear* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm in central Connecticut at 06109. Thanks for any info!



I can give you advice based on your location and the results from antennaweb.org but I suggest you consult an antenna expert who lives in New London, he can give you advice based not just on the theory but on a knowledge of what the individaul stations are doing and what actually works in your area. His "handle" is tigerbangs and he can be contacted through the forum at http://www.highdefforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=9 . Suggest you start off by posting there and see what advice he can give you.


----------



## coldnorth

up in the north central united states we have our tv station's transmitting antennas at pretty large distances from us. The nice thing is that we have them all in line for the most part so just one big antenna is all we need.


whey are hdtv receivers so hard to come by now? i can't find any at best buy, walmart, sears, sams club, rex tv, or anywhere else! does anyone have an idea why this is?


----------



## strider209

Looks like I might be ordering a 4221. I tried the $25 radio shack yagi again along with the CM 3041 Spartan 3 preamp that was extremely discounted at my local Lowes ($4) I tried attic mounting since hardware for attic mount was $5 compared to $20+ for roof mounting. Also I don't have to deal with the time/effort/aesthetics of an outside antenna. I'm still getting 1 signal bar on my PC but am able to tune in all the channels in Sacramento (320 degree area) though I still get stuttering on occasion. Not sure if this is related to my tuner card or software. I'm using windows media center on Windows Vista RTM. I still prefer an attic mount and the 4221 is only about $10 more than the Radio Shack yagi so I think I'll try that. Anyone have any suggestions? Is it my antenna setup that's the problem? maybe my tuner card? Issue with Vista RTM and windows media center? Any help would be great!


----------



## bberkley

I talked to a local antenna business today about getting the CM 4228, and he felt that would be sufficient for OTA from the Eugene, OR market without a preamp.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *coldnorth* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> up in the north central united states we have our tv station's transmitting antennas at pretty large distances from us. The nice thing is that we have them all in line for the most part so just one big antenna is all we need.
> 
> 
> whey are hdtv receivers so hard to come by now? i can't find any at best buy, walmart, sears, sams club, rex tv, or anywhere else! does anyone have an idea why this is?



1. Cuz most of us who bought sets without ATSC tuners already bought an OTA STB if we wanted/needed one....

(and could dump it onto eBay if Time Warner Cable ever adds CW-HD).


2. Cuz HD SAT Rcvrs now include ATSC tuner and HD LIL channels....and SD SAT Receiver owners are dumping their old OTA STB's onto eBay as they upgrade to HD SAT.


3. Cuz ATSC tuner mandate forced manufacturers to INCLUDE it in new DTVs.


4. Cuz the government has funded the DEVELOPMENT of a mass produced, low cost OTA STB prototypes that would presumably be available for only $50, with $40 of that defrayed via a COUPON program....however, now we all know that the OTA STB's will be limited to low-rez output only and may (or may not) be carefully rationed to those most affected by the Feb2009 analog shutdown. But interest in new OTA STB development has been dampened due to the continuing uncertainty as to what will or won't be allowed in the specs--how the program will be administered--and not to mention trying to compete against what are now government subsidized OTA STB developers (LG and Thomson/RCA):
http://www.tri-vision.ca/documents/2...20Comments.pdf 


Hence a separate OTA HDTV STB is a small, vanishing, niche market.


Suggest you consider an on-line order for the new Samsung DTB-H260F OTA STB:
http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_g...sung+DTB-H260F


----------



## kawahl

Firstly, thank you in advance for your help. What a great site!


I live in Western New York by Buffalo and Directv will not allow me to receive the HDTV feeds from the locals, so I would like to put up an ota antenna. Based on what I have learned thusfar, I have a printout from the AntennaWeb site as follows.


yellow - vhf WIVB 4 CBS BUFFALO NY 252° 15.9 4

* yellow - uhf WIVB-DT 4.1 CBS BUFFALO NY 252° 15.9 39

yellow - vhf WKBW 7 ABC BUFFALO NY 247° 16.5 7

* yellow - uhf WKBW-DT 7.1 ABC BUFFALO NY 247° 16.5 38

yellow - uhf WNYO 49 MNT BUFFALO NY 290° 5.5 49

yellow - vhf WGRZ 2 NBC BUFFALO NY 262° 11.4 2

* yellow - uhf WGRZ-DT 33.1 NBC BUFFALO NY 262° 11.4 33

red - uhf WNYB 26 TBN JAMESTOWN NY 251° 51.7 26

red - uhf WPXJ 51 i BATAVIA NY 74° 19.0 51

* blue - uhf WPXJ-DT 53 i BATAVIA NY TBD 74° 19.0 53

* blue - uhf WNYB-DT 26.1 TBN JAMESTOWN NY 251° 51.7 27

blue - uhf WNED 17 PBS BUFFALO NY 313° 34.0 17

blue - uhf WNGS 67 RTN SPRINGVILLE NY 223° 29.9 67

* violet - uhf WNGS-DT 46 RTN SPRINGVILLE NY TBD 220° 29.0 46

* violet - uhf WNYO-DT 49.1 MNT BUFFALO NY 290° 5.5 34

violet - uhf WNLO 23 CW BUFFALO NY 313° 34.0 23


I can do an external antenna without too much trouble.


Thanks for the thoughts and help!

Keith


----------



## coldnorth

I am an engineer at a TV station. The correct answer is VHF channels 2-6 are being taken by the FCC and UHF channels 52-69 are being taken back. Our channel 8 is the channel we are going to broadcast our HDTV signal on. Because of this reason, we are going to lose our channel 59 that we are currently using for our DTV channel. The reason we are choosing to use our current designation is that to broadcast UHF channels, the FCC requires a higher power output. This requires us to use very high power vacuum tubes and larger power supplies, filters, ect. The power requirements for VHF are lower and we can be solid state.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kawahl* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Firstly, thank you in advance for your help. What a great site!
> 
> 
> I live in Western New York by Buffalo and Directv will not allow me to receive the HDTV feeds from the locals, so I would like to put up an ota antenna. Based on what I have learned thusfar, I have a printout from the AntennaWeb site as follows.



If you can provide your zip code, it is easier for us to look up the digital stations you might be able to get. First question is whether you are interested in the digital stations only or do you want to also get the analog stations that are at low VHF? Second, are you interested in only the Buffalo stations?


All of the Buffalo stations are currently digitally broadcasting on UHF. A check of the FCC spreadsheet for the digital channel selections after the 2009 analog shutdown shows the Buffalo stations, including WKBW-DT ABC 7, have elected to stay at UHF. You are 5 to 16 miles from the Buffalo broadcast towers and there are a few other smaller network digital stations on UHF scattered around you in azimuth. You could probably get most of the Buffalo stations with an indoor Silver Sensor UHF antenna. But if you have no issues with a rooftop mount and reliable reception for the digital stations is what matters, the Channel Master 4221 4 Bay bowtie UHF antenna is probably the best overall for your situation. The CM 4221 is around $25 plus shipping from solidsignal.com or warrenelectronics.com.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *coldnorth* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am an engineer at a TV station. The correct answer is VHF channels 2-6 are being taken by the FCC and UHF channels 52-69 are being taken back. Our channel 8 is the channel we are going to broadcast our HDTV signal on.



True, UHF channels 52 to 69 are being taken away by the FCC. However, VHF 2 to 6 is still currently reserved for TV broadcasting after the 2009 analog shutdown. While many stations have elected to stay out of the lower VHF channels, some 50+ stations have selected to digitally broadcast from VHF 2 to 6 after the analog shutdown. Real nuisance for those who will live in outer fringes of those stations because they will have to put up a very large lower VHF antenna whereas with only upper VHF and UHF stations, a more compact and lighter antenna setup is possible.


Obviously way too late and would reduce the amount the federal government expects to raise from the spectrum auction as the upper UHF frequencies are more valuable and useful than low VHF for portable communications, but a better long term solution might be to keep, say, UHF 52 to 54 for TV and dump low VHF altogether for digital TV. But the choices have been made and that is not going to change now. There has been speculation that we may eventually see several of the low VHF 2 to 6 channels being taken away, but as I understand it, it is only speculation at this point.


----------



## kawahl

My zip code is 14167


----------



## wildwillie6

_why are hdtv receivers so hard to come by now?_


Certainly all the reasons in http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...57#post9145757 apply, but in addition:


After March 1, the DVD recorders are going to have ATSC tuners. Some of them will presumably output hi-def, thereby providing the functionality of an HDTV receiver, even though they can only record a down-rezzed version to the DVD. These DVD recorders won't cost as much as (DVD recorder + HDTV receiver).


As Joe Isuzu used to say, you have my word on it.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kawahl* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My zip code is 14167



I had to enter a rather high antenna height for your zip code to get a list of the Buffalo stations. A lot of blue and red color codes for reception, despite being only 12 to 18 miles from the broadcast towers. However, the map that pops up for just your zip puts in somewhere in a large blank area, so the default location for the zip may be down at a low point. How hilly is your area?


I also did not get a Fox station in Buffalo to show up on the antennaweb list, but a check shows there is a WUTV-DT Fox 29 (UHF 14) which has a low power and full digital power entry in the FCC database. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WUTV and click on the FCC database link. Antennaweb is using the low power entry but the station may be at full power. Check with the Buffalo locals thread for WUTV-DT status.


With the color codes, I think you should go with the rooftop antenna. I still recommend the Channel Master 4221 UHF antenna if the digitals are all you want. Add a Channel Master or Winegard pre-amp later if you can't get reliable reception with just the antenna or if you have a long (RG-6) cable run.


----------



## psm1man

Thank you in advance for your help. What a great site!


I live SouthEast of Rochester,NY - currently have Dish 622 and would like to put up an ota antenna for UHF locals out of Syracuse (Syracuse seems to carry more HD than the Roc stations according to a neighbor and TitanTv). Below is a printout from the AntennaWeb (zip code 14425):


* lt green - uhf WSYR-DT 9.1 ABC SYRACUSE NY 101° 66.4 17

red - uhf WXXI 21 PBS ROCHESTER NY 327° 17.7 21

red - uhf WNYS 43 MNT SYRACUSE NY 106° 57.7 43

red - uhf WSYT 68 FOX SYRACUSE NY 106° 57.7 68

red - vhf WHAM 13 ABC ROCHESTER NY 327° 17.7 13

* blue - uhf WHAM-DT 13.1 ABC ROCHESTER NY 327° 17.7 59

blue - vhf WTVH 5 CBS SYRACUSE NY 101° 62.1 5

blue - vhf WSTM 3 NBC SYRACUSE NY 101° 61.6 3

blue - uhf WPXJ 51 i BATAVIA NY 275° 34.5 51

* blue - uhf WXXI-DT 21.1 PBS ROCHESTER NY 327° 17.7 16

blue - vhf WHEC 10 NBC ROCHESTER NY 327° 17.7 10

blue - uhf WCNY 24 PBS SYRACUSE NY 101° 61.6 24

blue - vhf WROC 8 CBS ROCHESTER NY 327° 17.7 8

blue - uhf WUHF 31 FOX ROCHESTER NY 327° 17.7 31

violet - uhf W26BZ 26 MNT VICTOR NY 334° 7.1 26

* violet - uhf WPXJ-DT 53 i BATAVIA NY TBD 275° 34.5 53

* violet - uhf WNYS-DT 44.1 MNT SYRACUSE NY 106° 57.7 44

* violet - uhf WSTM-DT 3.1 NBC SYRACUSE NY 101° 61.6 54

violet - vhf WSYR 9 ABC SYRACUSE NY 101° 66.4 9


I would like to go with an antenna and preamp if required initially (for UHF only) - and later add a rotor if justified. Have been reading here and elsewhere that the 4228 and 91XG seem to be good choices, but am open to whatever will do the job. I have a neighbor using a TERK TV38 (with amp or Preamp?) and getting good reception from Syr. (though I don't need the VHF as he does). I do have a couple of questions:

1.- Will the 91XG be too directional to pick up WSYT - 68 - FOX at 5 degrees difference (at 60+ miles) if I point the antenna at the 101 antennas? (have a little concern with the wind loading on 4228)

2.- Will a single Maple tree about 100 ft from my house hurt reception in the future if I try to get the Roc stations?


Thanks,

Lyle...


----------



## Morpheus_Rising

Well this happened to me a second time. On Saturday December 2nd, I woke up to find that my antennas had been knocked down for the second time. The first time this happened was at the end of March 2006. I had to get 2 new antennas and a new antenna mast. I also managed to get a TB-105 support bearing. I had gotten the person who I bought my tower from (and who erected it) to install my 2nd set of antennas. He placed the rotator on top of the top triangle plate and did the whole set-up. However there was a problem with using the TB-105 support bearing - the 2 masts were slightly off so I had a problem rotating my antennas. They would rotate for a bit and then jam.


When they came lose this time, the antenna mast was still connected to the rotator (lying on it's side on the top triangle plate). The tower mast (which connected the rotator to the tower) had bent severely, causing the rotator with the mast and antennas to flip about 90 degrees. The good thing was since the rotator was still attached this kept the antennas away from the tower so they weren't damaged.


The installer came in on the Sunday a tied a rope from the antenna mast to the tower just in case (it was too windy on Saturday or Sunday to bring the antennas down). On Monday he came in and safely brought down the antennas with the mast and rotator. We discussed the new set up - moving the rotator inside the tower, mounting the Wade-Antenna support bearing on top of the top triangle plate, and placing another mast inside my mast to make it more rigid.


He waited until there was low wind day which was a week later (Monday Dec 11th) and got about 2/3 done. He came on the next day (yesterday) and finished it off. He told me that my rotator had died on him when he was mounting a bracket on it which would connect it to a new bottom triangle plate. He's selling me a used rotator (an older Channel Master unit that's suppose to be a heavy duty one. He states that the current Channel Master rotators are light duty and are not as good quality as the older ones since Channel Master has been bought out by another company).


Before he left yesterday, we synched the antennas to North and rotated them around abit. So no more rotating problems. However, I think there might be another problem. He mounted my VHF antenna (Wade VIP-307SR) lower, so it is about 1 foot above the top of the tower. I don't know if this is the cause or not, but I found I'm having reception problems using that antenna. Channels that I used to get, I'm having problems with. It could be the weather, since it's been overcast/rainy the last 2 days.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *psm1man* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live SouthEast of Rochester,NY - currently have Dish 622 and would like to put up an ota antenna for UHF locals out of Syracuse (Syracuse seems to carry more HD than the Roc stations according to a neighbor and TitanTv). Below is a printout from the AntennaWeb (zip code 14425):
> 
> [snip]
> 
> I would like to go with an antenna and preamp if required initially (for UHF only) - and later add a rotor if justified. Have been reading here and elsewhere that the 4228 and 91XG seem to be good choices, but am open to whatever will do the job. I have a neighbor using a TERK TV38 (with amp or Preamp?) and getting good reception from Syr. (though I don't need the VHF as he does). I do have a couple of questions:
> 
> 1.- Will the 91XG be too directional to pick up WSYT - 68 - FOX at 5 degrees difference (at 60+ miles) if I point the antenna at the 101 antennas? (have a little concern with the wind loading on 4228)
> 
> 2.- Will a single Maple tree about 100 ft from my house hurt reception in the future if I try to get the Roc stations?



Summarizing what I see with antennaweb, you have two group of digital stations: Rochester tightly clumped at 324 degrees & 16 miles and Syracuse at 102 to 108 degrees & around 60 miles. All of the digital stations are currently at UHF. For the Syracuse stations, you should go with a outdoor or rooftop mount.


However, the FCC spreadsheet shows that WHEC-DT NBC 10 and WHAM-DT ABC 13 in Rochester have selected to switch their digital broadcast back to the their upper VHF 10 & 13 channels after the analog shutdown in February, 2009. All of the other stations in Rochester & Syracuse will stay at UHF. What this means is that, if you want your setup to be able to get all the stations come 2009, you need an antenna setup that can receive upper VHF. The good news is that it is 2 of the closer set of stations at only 16 miles that will go upper VHF, not the far more distant ones in Syracuse.


I have seen posts here that claim the the 91XG can pick up upper VHF channels, but not hard numbers or details on this. The CM 4228 does have some upper VHF response as shown here: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html (click on the CM 4228 link and also check the VHF for UHF chart down the page).


The CM 4228 also has a good backlobe for picking up stations behind it. Your stations are around 140 degrees apart. It is possible that if you aim the CM 4228 at or a bit south of Syracuse, that you might well be able to get the Rochester stations from the backside without having to rotate the antenna. If you were to go this route, you would probably still want a rotator as this may not work in all conditions or seasons and you may still either have to tweak the aim from time to time or have to rotate for a solid lock on a particular station.


Now if someone with a 91XG in similar circumstances could weigh in here, that would be helpful. But from the looks of it, the CM 4228 may be the better fit of the two long range UHF antennas for your situation.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *psm1man* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 1.- Will the 91XG be too directional to pick up WSYT - 68 - FOX at 5 degrees difference (at 60+ miles) if I point the antenna at the 101 antennas? (have a little concern with the wind loading on 4228)
> 
> 2.- Will a single Maple tree about 100 ft from my house hurt reception in the future if I try to get the Roc stations?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Lyle...



1. Probably not.

2. The tree could cause problems when full of leaves and the wind is blowing, expecially if the signal has to pass through the foliage.


----------



## psm1man

Thanks to both for the follow-up.

Another question if you will, which preamp would you recommend for the 4228? I have read a couple of places where the 7777 might overload my closer channels and that the HTB269 may be better.

Thanks again in advance for your inputs.

Lyle...


----------



## chazzz

Can anyone recommend an antenna for my location? solidsignal.com recommends the DB4. Thanks in advance for your expertise.



* yellow - uhf KTVI-DT 2.1 FOX St. Louis MO 249° 5.6 43

* yellow - uhf KMOV-DT 4.1 CBS ST. LOUIS MO 207° 2.7 56

* yellow - uhf KDNL-DT 30.1 ABC ST. LOUIS MO 291° 3.0 31

* yellow - uhf KPLR-DT 11.1 CW ST. LOUIS MO 283° 2.7 26

* yellow - uhf KSDK-DT 5.1 NBC ST. LOUIS MO 275° 3.0 35

* yellow - uhf KETC-DT 9.1 PBS ST. LOUIS MO 229° 8.7 39

* red - uhf KNLC-DT 24.1 FMN ST. LOUIS MO 226° 20.3 14

* red - uhf WRBU-DT 46.1 MNT E. ST. LOUIS IL 223° 16.7 47


----------



## strider209

They are all UHF and most are yellow and within 10 miles.

I'd try an indoor first like a silver sensor.


----------



## tyromark

psm1man - I use the Weingard 269 pre-amp with a cm4228, have stations from 7 to 37 miles away and get good results. FWIW


----------



## chazzz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *strider209* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> They are all UHF and most are yellow and within 10 miles.
> 
> I'd try an indoor first like a silver sensor.



Thanks, I'll check it out. I should note that I don't have accessible attic space to mount. Even if this is indoor can I mount on the roof? If not what outdoor model can you recommend?


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chazzz* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks, I'll check it out. I should note that I don't have accessible attic space to mount. Even if this is indoor can I mount on the roof? If not what outdoor model can you recommend?



You are only 3 to 5 miles from the bulk of the St. Louis broadcast towers. The only HD network station that is moderately far away is the My Network WRBU-DT 46.1 MNT at 16 miles. All of the stations are digitally broadcasting on UHF and all of the St. Louis stations will stay at UHF after the analog shutdown in 2009, so a UHF antenna will do the job for you.


I would start off with the Silver Sensor UHF indoor antenna. Unless there are issues with the house construction - wire mesh in the walls, metal frame construction, I would keep your antenna setup simple. Try an indoor antenna first and see if you can get all the stations including WRBU-DT with it. According to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WRBU (click on the FCC database link and follow down to the Service Contour map link for details), the power is at 109 KW, so you may not be able to pick it up with the Silver Sensor. OTOH, the broadcast antenna is 318 meters above the average terrain (HAAT) so that helps with coverage. Note: wikipedia is very handy for looking up station broadcast info using the call letters.


If you can buy the Silver Sensor locally, you can return it if it does not get all the stations. Circuit City has been carrying the Silver Sensor under the Philips brand name, model # PHDTV1, for $25, but not all stores may stock it. Circuit City has the Terk copy of the Silver Sensor. Starting out, I would stay away from the amplified antennas given your close proximity to some of the broadcast towers. At 2.7 miles, a coat hanger bent into a UHF loop touching the coaxial socket would probably work.


Added: for Silver Sensor info, go to http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html and go down to http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/silver.html (although there is a lot of stuff there on how to combine two Silver Sensors to deal with multipath)


----------



## psm1man

TYROMARK - Thanks for the input - based on other posts, I had been leaning toward the Winegard 269.


----------



## kawahl

Firstly, Thanks for the help!


Fortunately I live on top of a rather tall hill. I will take your suggestion and report back! Anything specific re: where to purchase or how to install the CM 4221 UHF?


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kawahl* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Firstly, Thanks for the help!
> 
> 
> Fortunately I live on top of a rather tall hill. I will take your suggestion and report back! Anything specific re: where to purchase or how to install the CM 4221 UHF?



For buying antennas on-line, solidsignal.com or warrenelectronics.com are routinely recommended on here. The CM 4221 is not widely sold in the chain stores. I brought my CM 4221 from solidsignal last year and was satisfied with their service, especially the quick shipment of a replacement CM 4221, after UPS somehow managed to crush the 1st one in shipment. If you want to go local on mounting equipment, try Lowe's or Radio Shack. The home supply stores such as Lowe's or Home Depot are also cheaper on RG-6 co-axial cable.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wildwillie6* /forum/post/0
> 
> _why are hdtv receivers so hard to come by now?_
> 
> 
> Certainly all the reasons in http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...57#post9145757 apply, but in addition:
> 
> 
> After March 1, the DVD recorders are going to have ATSC tuners. Some of them will presumably output hi-def, thereby providing the functionality of an HDTV receiver, even though they can only record a down-rezzed version to the DVD. These DVD recorders won't cost as much as (DVD recorder + HDTV receiver).
> 
> 
> As Joe Isuzu used to say, you have my word on it.



Yup, LG has low-rez DVD Recorders coming "soon" that will also have an OTA ATSC tuner:
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/LGline2007.html 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748465 

Too bad the recordings aren't hi-rez.....


Which also might help to explain why LG isn't making an OTA capable DVR.

The $800 TIVO Series 3 seems to be the ONLY OTA DVR in production (other than an even more expensive HTPC).

Hopefully, more are on the way.....


Since we are mentioning "value added" (e.g. up-scale) products that just happen to also have an ATSC tuner,

I suppose we should also include the JVC HD-DT100 D-VHS (truly hi-rez) Recorder with an (extra cost) integrated ATSC tuner:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=455324 

Which, of course, can record nearly ANY channel on cable (including encrypted premiums) when connected

to a suitably equipped (and WORKING!!!!) IEEE-1394 Firewire interface.


----------



## chazzz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You are only 3 to 5 miles from the bulk of the St. Louis broadcast towers. The only HD network station that is moderately far away is the My Network WRBU-DT 46.1 MNT at 16 miles. All of the stations are digitally broadcasting on UHF and all of the St. Louis stations will stay at UHF after the analog shutdown in 2009, so a UHF antenna will do the job for you.
> 
> 
> I would start off with the Silver Sensor UHF indoor antenna. Unless there are issues with the house construction - wire mesh in the walls, metal frame construction, I would keep your antenna setup simple. Try an indoor antenna first and see if you can get all the stations including WRBU-DT with it. According to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WRBU (click on the FCC database link and follow down to the Service Contour map link for details), the power is at 109 KW, so you may not be able to pick it up with the Silver Sensor. OTOH, the broadcast antenna is 318 meters above the average terrain (HAAT) so that helps with coverage. Note: wikipedia is very handy for looking up station broadcast info using the call letters.
> 
> 
> If you can buy the Silver Sensor locally, you can return it if it does not get all the stations. Circuit City has been carrying the Silver Sensor under the Philips brand name, model # PHDTV1, for $25, but not all stores may stock it. Circuit City has the Terk copy of the Silver Sensor. Starting out, I would stay away from the amplified antennas given your close proximity to some of the broadcast towers. At 2.7 miles, a coat hanger bent into a UHF loop touching the coaxial socket would probably work.
> 
> 
> Added: for Silver Sensor info, go to http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html and go down to http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/silver.html (although there is a lot of stuff there on how to combine two Silver Sensors to deal with multipath)



Thanks!


I am currently using this antenna, which was already installed on the roof of my house when I moved in: Radio Shack Antenna . It's big and bulky, and right now it's not picking everything up.


From the list of channels I have a strong signal for 4.1, 5.1, and 30.1. I have a sporadic signal on 2.1. I have nothing for 9.1, 11.1, 24.1, or 46.1.


What I am interested in doing is keeping 4.1, 5.1 and 30.1, strengthening 2.1, and also picking up 9.1 and 11.1, while trying to find something more asthetically pleasing than the big kite on top of my roof. I am not interested in the red channels 24.1 or 46.1, I don't watch them.


I could probably go up and adjust it to help with some of the other channels but I want to replace it anyway.


----------



## sregener




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Now if someone with a 91XG in similar circumstances could weigh in here, that would be helpful. But from the looks of it, the CM 4228 may be the better fit of the two long range UHF antennas for your situation.



I've got a 91XG and with a Winegard preamp, I get an analog signal from the local NBC affiliate (channel 10) from almost any direction. It is best when misaimed by about 30 degrees, but the picture is near perfect. For long distance (over 60 miles) it's not as great.


I don't have hard and fast numbers, but with a rotor, I get as good a picture with the 91XG on channel 10 as I did with a Winegard HD8200P. Draw your own conclusions.


The 4228 is murder on rotors - I never recommend one for an outdoor install because of the "sail" effect.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chazzz* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am currently using this antenna, which was already installed on the roof of my house when I moved in: Radio Shack Antenna . It's big and bulky, and right now it's not picking everything up.
> 
> 
> From the list of channels I have a strong signal for 4.1, 5.1, and 30.1. I have a sporadic signal on 2.1. I have nothing for 9.1, 11.1, 24.1, or 46.1.



I wish you had posted that you already had that antenna on the roof before. Do you have that EXACT antenna or just something close to it? Looking more closely at your antennaweb list dump, you have up to a 80 degree spread in azimuth between the stations. Your problem is that antenna is too directional for UHF channels in your situation. You may find a better aim, but that antenna will have a hard time picking up stations 80 degrees apart.


Since you already have a roof mount with a pole and cabling running indoors to the TV, I will change my recommendation. If the analog stations don't matter to you, replace that antenna with either a Channel Master 4221 UHF 4 Bay or the smaller AntennasDirect DB-2. I think either one will do the job. Check my post a couple of posts back on where to buy either one on-line. If your roof mount can handle the wind load of the CM 4221, it will likely get all of your locals with a little tweaking in the aim (somewhere between the CBS and ABC stations).


Check your antenna cabling to see if it is RG-6 coaxial. If it is RG-59 and you have a long run, consider replacing it with RG-6.


----------



## chazzz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I wish you had posted that you already had that antenna on the roof before. Do you have that EXACT antenna or just something close to it? Looking more closely at your antennaweb list dump, you have up to a 80 degree spread in azimuth between the stations. Your problem is that antenna is too directional for UHF channels in your situation. You may find a better aim, but that antenna will have a hard time picking up stations 80 degrees apart.
> 
> 
> Since you already have a roof mount with a pole and cabling running indoors to the TV, I will change my recommendation. If the analog stations don't matter to you, replace that antenna with either a Channel Master 4221 UHF 4 Bay or the smaller AntennasDirect DB-2. I think either one will do the job. Check my post a couple of posts back on where to buy either one on-line. If your roof mount can handle the wind load of the CM 4221, it will likely get all of your locals with a little tweaking in the aim (somewhere between the CBS and ABC stations).
> 
> 
> Check your antenna cabling to see if it is RG-6 coaxial. If it is RG-59 and you have a long run, consider replacing it with RG-6.



I believe it is that exact antenna from Radio Shack, at least it looks identical and has the same number of elements. I don't need analog because I get them from DirecTV.


Good point about the cabling, I am sure it is probably RG-59.


What I find curious is that my best 2 stations reception-wise right now are CBS and ABC. Those look to be on opposite ends of the spectrum from my address. I am not getting stations "in between" like FOX (2.1), PBS (9.1) and CW (11.1).


Looks like the CM 4221 is big and ugly. I would probably try it as a last resort. I will give the DB2 a shot first. Since you posted about the silver sensor I have been reading up on it. I read a couple of reviews that say people have mounted it outdoors. I may give that a shot....or now do you feel that may be too much of a directional antenna for me as well?


Thanks again for your help.


----------



## psm1man

SREGENER - thanks for the input. How do your UHF stations come in from 60+ miles with the 91XG?


----------



## eberniard

Awsome forum, I have learned so much just from browsing the topics.


I just bought an HDTV (w/ASTC) and I am trying a silver sensor with mixed results. The broadcast sources are all in the same area, here is what I got from antennaweb:


KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS 327° 11.1 26

KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS 325° 11.7 35

WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS 325° 11.7 32

WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS 327° 11.1 21

KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MINNEAPOLIS 325° 11.7 44

KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL 325° 11.7 50

KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS ST. PAUL 327° 11.0 34

KTCI-DT 17.1 PBS ST. PAUL 327° 11.0 16

WUCW-DT 23.1 CW MINNEAPOLIS 325° 11.7 22


With the silver sensor I get about 5-6 bars signal strength (out of 8 max I think - LN-S3251D). Other than a rooftop antenna, what can I try to improve reception? I had hopes of placing something like a Terk TV-55 above my drop ceiling, but I expect that will be worse than a silver sensor in the open aimed through a window at the source. Is there anything small that would work above a tiled drop ceiling? How about the silver sensor with an amp?


Thanks,

Chip


----------



## otaguy

I live in Swarthmore PA 19081 39 53 52.8N 75 20 37.3W

Current setup: medium sized Radio Shack UHF Yagi roof mounted, probably about 25' above the ground.

No preamp

CM rotator with remote

About 85' of coax downlead, no splitters

Motorola HDT100 STB


There are a bunch of ATSC stations in Roxborough 11 miles away at 30 degrees that I get easily. The Motorola signal strength meter doesn't have numbers, just three red bars, three yellow bars and three green bars. Most of these stations come in at three yellow bars, sometimes one green bar.


There are two stations (WNJS and WMCN) in Camden 29 miles away at 114 degrees. If I point the antenna between these and Roxborough I can usually get WNJS and the Roxborough stations to come in without moving the antenna (so I guess my Radio Shack Yagi isn't terribly directional). Sometimes I have to move a little to the east to get WMCN.


Now here's my problem. There are two stations in Allentown on the same tower 46 miles away at 354 degrees I'd like to upgrade my setup to be able to get. The easier of the two in theory is WFMZDTon channel 46 broadcasting at 400kW. I'm inside (barely) the blue circle on the FCC service area map at 41 dBu but I can't get my Motorola to even find the station, let alone lock on it. I've tried moving the antenna one degree, try to add the station, STB times out, move another one degree, try again, etc. No luck. The station I'd really like to get is considerably harder than that. WLVTDT is on the same tower as WFMZDT but a little lower down and a lot less power (47.7 kW).


I spoke with an engineer at WLVT and he suggested a preamp to overcome line loss on my 85' of coax but I'm afraid that would overload the STB on the Roxborough stations. I guess I could also go to a larger higher gain antenna which would have to be aimed more precisely than I can currently get away with. Anyone have an opinion as to whether it's possible or practical to get this 47.7 kW station at a distance of 46 miles and if so what would be the best way to go?


----------



## Morpheus_Rising

Well yesterday was a nice sunny day. I went throught channel 2-68 on my VHF antenna and it's the same thing. Channels that I was getting clear, I don't get very well. So, it's not the weather. I think the problem is that the VHF antenna is mounted too low on the mast, and too near the tower (about 1 foot above the top of the tower) and this is causing the interference. I think the VHF antenna needs to be raised another 1.5 feet (total about 2.5 feet above the tower).


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *otaguy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live in Swarthmore PA 19081 39 53 52.8N 75 20 37.3W
> 
> Current setup: medium sized Radio Shack UHF Yagi roof mounted, probably about 25' above the ground.
> 
> No preamp
> 
> CM rotator with remote
> 
> About 85' of coax downlead, no splitters
> 
> Motorola HDT100 STB



I went to Antennaweb for your location. I entered an imaginary tower 300' tall. The digital stations in Allentown did not show up, only the two analogs. It did pop in with a 1000' tower. It's not likely that a simple setup will receive DTV from Allentown.


The number of stations in Philly that are close to you preclude the use of a preamp, even the highly rated HDP-269, unless you use a channel filter prior to the preamp. WLVT-DT is on channel 62. So a large antenna such as the 91XG, a channel 62 channel filter, and finally the preamp would be your only hope. Even then, I'd be surprised if it worked.


----------



## jspENC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *otaguy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live in Swarthmore PA 19081 39 53 52.8N 75 20 37.3W
> 
> Current setup: medium sized Radio Shack UHF Yagi roof mounted, probably about 25' above the ground.
> 
> No preamp
> 
> CM rotator with remote
> 
> About 85' of coax downlead, no splitters
> 
> Motorola HDT100 STB
> 
> 
> There are a bunch of ATSC stations in Roxborough 11 miles away at 30 degrees that I get easily. The Motorola signal strength meter doesn't have numbers, just three red bars, three yellow bars and three green bars. Most of these stations come in at three yellow bars, sometimes one green bar.
> 
> 
> There are two stations (WNJS and WMCN) in Camden 29 miles away at 114 degrees. If I point the antenna between these and Roxborough I can usually get WNJS and the Roxborough stations to come in without moving the antenna (so I guess my Radio Shack Yagi isn't terribly directional). Sometimes I have to move a little to the east to get WMCN.
> 
> 
> Now here's my problem. There are two stations in Allentown on the same tower 46 miles away at 354 degrees I'd like to upgrade my setup to be able to get. The easier of the two in theory is WFMZDTon channel 46 broadcasting at 400kW. I'm inside (barely) the blue circle on the FCC service area map at 41 dBu but I can't get my Motorola to even find the station, let alone lock on it. I've tried moving the antenna one degree, try to add the station, STB times out, move another one degree, try again, etc. No luck. The station I'd really like to get is considerably harder than that. WLVTDT is on the same tower as WFMZDT but a little lower down and a lot less power (47.7 kW).
> 
> 
> I spoke with an engineer at WLVT and he suggested a preamp to overcome line loss on my 85' of coax but I'm afraid that would overload the STB on the Roxborough stations. I guess I could also go to a larger higher gain antenna which would have to be aimed more precisely than I can currently get away with. Anyone have an opinion as to whether it's possible or practical to get this 47.7 kW station at a distance of 46 miles and if so what would be the best way to go?



]


OTA guy,

I am also using that Motorola receiver and the bars are not right on it. Basically they are reversed. If you are seeing yellow bars then that is very strong, if the bars go all the way across to the right in green then that is a weak signal. Tune in a channel, go to the manual scan menu and run that. Look at the SNR rate. If it is 25 DB that is as strong as you can get. If it is 15 that is very weak. I would say anything over 16 on that SNR reading is good.


----------



## sabex




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sabex* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am looking for a workable indoor antenna that I can use to get my locals channels in HD. Can anyone make a suggestion? Thanks
> 
> antennaweb information:
> 
> * yellow - uhf WTVR-DT 6.1 CBS RICHMOND VA 328° 14.4 25
> 
> * yellow - uhf WRIC-DT 8.1 ABC PETERSBURG VA 328° 14.4 22
> 
> * yellow - uhf WWBT-DT 12.1 NBC RICHMOND VA 348° 11.1 54
> 
> * yellow - uhf WCVE-DT 23.1 PBS RICHMOND VA 328° 14.4 42
> 
> * green - uhf WCVW-DT 23.1 PBS RICHMOND VA 328° 14.4 44
> 
> * red - uhf WUPV-DT 47.1 CW ASHLAND VA 29° 28.3 47
> 
> * red - uhf WRLH-DT 35.1 FOX RICHMOND VA 328° 14.4 26



I ended up with a Silver Sensor and managed to get OTA activated on my DVR last night. Now I am struggling to orient the antenna for the best signal, using only the crappy strength meters on the HR20.

Remarkably I can get 12 and 35 pretty well but cannot get 6 and 8 only intermittently.

Is there a method (other than trial and error) that can help me get the best orientation for the antenna, or should I just get an amplifier? The obvious answer would be a signal strength meter but I don't see myself buying one (unless they are way cheaper than I suspect). I do have an electrical multimeter but I suspect that won't do the job.


Any advice appreciated!


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sabex* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I ended up with a Silver Sensor and managed to get OTA activated on my DVR last night. Now I am struggling to orient the antenna for the best signal, using only the crappy strength meters on the HR20.
> 
> Remarkably I can get 12 and 35 pretty well but cannot get 6 and 8 only intermittently.
> 
> Is there a method (other than trial and error) that can help me get the best orientation for the antenna, or should I just get an amplifier? The obvious answer would be a signal strength meter but I don't see myself buying one (unless they are way cheaper than I suspect). I do have an electrical multimeter but I suspect that won't do the job.



How many locations have you tried for the Silver Sensor? Indoor setups will have dead zones for antenna reception of weaker signals. Have you tried placing it at a window in the direction of the broadcast towers? Placed it as high up in the room or house as you can? Location and aim both matter. WRLH-DT Fox 35 is probably at full power while Antennaweb is using the low power STA entry in the FCC database as the power level for the station, hence the "red" code for it.


BTW, yes, a multimeter won't help with measuring signal strength.


If you can't get the stations reliably with a Silver Sensor, then you should return the antenna to the store and step up to a larger antenna for the attic or outdoors such as the Channel Master 4221 4 Bay that I suggested you might have to go with before.


----------



## sabex




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How many locations have you tried for the Silver Sensor? Indoor setups will have dead zones for antenna reception of weaker signals. Have you tried placing it at a window in the direction of the broadcast towers? Placed it as high up in the room or house as you can? Location and aim both matter. WRLH-DT Fox 35 is probably at full power while Antennaweb is using the low power STA entry in the FCC database as the power level for the station, hence the "red" code for it.
> 
> 
> BTW, yes, a multimeter won't help with measuring signal strength.
> 
> 
> If you can't get the stations reliably with a Silver Sensor, then you should return the antenna to the store and step up to a larger antenna for the attic or outdoors such as the Channel Master 4221 4 Bay that I suggested you might have to go with before.



After much pointing and playing and purchase of a few other variations I am convinced that the Silver Sensor is the best of the bunch but not quite good enough.

I am off to return all the items I purchased. In order to get anything run from the attic I am going to need some more cable run. Since I need at least one more run for my DVR second input, I will get both done at the same time.

Now I just need to find a reputable & cheap installer!


----------



## DeeBeeEff

(Apologies for double-posting this.)

Trying to find out why my rotor isn't working...

In testing my rotor controller, I found anywhere between 25 and 30 volts output across any two posts no matter which direction it was turning. Does this make sense?

One would think that the "wide wire" is common and wouldn't each of the other two wires only have voltage depending upon the direction. Or do I not undertsand the way this works?

Thanks,

Dave


----------



## bberkley

Installed my CM 4228 today oriented towards Eugene. Took a small TV up on the roof with me, and was pulling VHF channels very strong, and its a UHF antenna! Got everything connected up, went inside and had my TV scan channels, and had my buddy on the roof tune the antenna to get the best signal strength and checked it with the other channels I was interested in getting.


I'm getting 98% signal strength on KMTR, KVAL, and KEPB, and 80-85% on KEZI. I don't get the FOX affiliate at all, but I'm ok with that since I have FOX and KGW coming in on D*.


I am not using a pre amp, or an amp. The mount is a duopod, and I just shoved the mast into the short J tube mast from my old 2LNB mount and plumbed it.


Really, really happy with this combo. I expect with a rotator that I could dial the FOX station in, but this works for me.


----------



## texasbrit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bberkley* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Installed my CM 4228 today oriented towards Eugene. Took a small TV up on the roof with me, and was pulling VHF channels very strong, and its a UHF antenna! Got everything connected up, went inside and had my TV scan channels, and had my buddy on the roof tune the antenna to get the best signal strength and checked it with the other channels I was interested in getting.
> 
> 
> I'm getting 98% signal strength on KMTR, KVAL, and KEPB, and 80-85% on KEZI. I don't get the FOX affiliate at all, but I'm ok with that since I have FOX and KGW coming in on D*.
> 
> 
> I am not using a pre amp, or an amp. The mount is a duopod, and I just shoved the mast into the short J tube mast from my old 2LNB mount and plumbed it.
> 
> 
> Really, really happy with this combo. I expect with a rotator that I could dial the FOX station in, but this works for me.




Yes, the CM4228 is one of the few UHF antennas that has any decent performance on VHF, certainly on VHF-hi.


----------



## jeep05

Guys, i'm in zip 27909 and according to Antennaweb, i need a medium directional with preamp. I recently purchased a Winegard 9095 but am having no luck pulling in locals from Norfolk/Newport News DMA. Most towers are roughly 35-40 miles from here. Directly in front of my residence, there are numerous tall pines, that fall in the direction of the towers. I have not tried a pre-amp at this point and am wondering if this would even help.


I failed to mention, that this is a two-story residence and the antenna was mounted roughly 7ft. about the roof peak.


Any suggestions would be appreciated.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jeep05* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Guys, i'm in zip 27909 and according to Antennaweb, i need a medium directional with preamp. I recently purchased a Winegard 9095 but am having no luck pulling in locals from Norfolk/Newport News DMA. Most towers are roughly 35-40 miles from here. Directly in front of my residence, there are numerous tall pines, that fall in the direction of the towers. I have not tried a pre-amp at this point and am wondering if this would even help.
> 
> 
> I failed to mention, that this is a two-story residence and the antenna was mounted roughly 7ft. about the roof peak.



According to your zip, all of those stations are in the same direction and are currently digitally broadcasting on UHF. I pasted the antennaweb list below with a 100 foot height for the antenna. The Winegard 9095 should be able to pull at least some of those stations in. Do you get any hits at all with the channel scan? Have you tried entering the digital broadcast channel directly? Such as 16 for WHRO-DT PBS 15?


* yellow - uhf WUND-DT 2.1 PBS EDENTON NC 201° 27.8 20

* yellow - uhf WHRO-DT 15.1 PBS HAMPTON-NORFOLK VA 348° 38.2 16

* green - uhf WPXV-DT 49.1 i NORFOLK VA 348° 38.2 46

* green - uhf WTKR-DT 3.1 CBS NORFOLK VA 348° 38.2 40

* red - uhf WTVZ-DT 33.1 MNT NORFOLK VA 348° 38.2 38

* blue - uhf WVBT-DT 43.1 FOX VIRGINIA BEACH VA 348° 39.1 29

* blue - uhf WAVY-DT 10.1 NBC PORTSMOUTH VA 348° 39.1 31

* violet - uhf WVEC-DT 13.1 ABC HAMPTON VA 352° 38.0 41


----------



## jeep05

Thanks afiggatt 







Channel scan revealed only one hit and that was 27.1 at 25% signal strength with D* HR20 and also the same on the tv.


----------



## newsposter

FM Trap gone wild (leviton 25db amp) ? Over summer had some regular troubles receiving some channels, finally decided to flip the trap switch (recalling I had to do that in spring to make things alright) and things were good most of the summer. Then had troubles and decided to flip the switch again. Fixed things pretty good.


past few days, 2 channels were really giving me problems. As a joke i told my wife let me go up and flip the switch. Well it works. But the problem is, it's not 'consistent.' For example, yesterday morning the trap was on, then a bit later I had to turn it off and repeat and rinse










Basically, when my channel didnt come in, i flipped the switch to the other position and it makes the station come in. It appears it doesnt really matter that it's on or off but that I moved it. Sounds very strange. Could it be a 'bad' trap. The unit sits on a 25 ft run from the roof, in the attic, then a 75 ft run to my tivos.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jeep05* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks afiggatt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Channel scan revealed only one hit and that was 27.1 at 25% signal strength with D* HR20 and also the same on the tv.



If you are getting that poor detection performance, I'm not sure that a pre-amp would help enough. The primary purpose for a pre-amp to make up for the signal loss from a long cable run. Have you tried moving the antenna aim to the left and to the right? Raise or lower your antenna a couple of feet? With the antenna up there on the roof of a two story house, tweaking the aim is difficult and a bit dangerous. But the antenna may be in a dead spot or need to be aimed off to one side or the other because of the trees. Did you try the antenna out from the ground before putting it up on the roof just to see what it picked up? I would also double check your co-axial RG-6 cable connections to make sure that they are all tight and have no moisture in them.


If you can't improve the reception of your locals at all, you may have to look into getting a UHF antenna with more gain such as the AntennasDirect 91XG combined with a pre-amp.


----------



## emikendral

I live in the St. Louis area and use a DB4 antenna.

I'm having trouble getting the PBS station to come in. I think

it may be multipath. Should I buy a tripod which would

raise the antenna about 4 feet or go with a more directional antenna with

a rotor.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> FM Trap gone wild (leviton 25db amp) ? As a joke i told my wife let me go up and flip the switch. Well it works. But the problem is, it's not 'consistent.' For example, yesterday morning the trap was on, then a bit later I had to turn it off and repeat and rinse



I'd guess that the FM trap switch has become flakey. I'd switch it back and forth about 100 times and see if it settles down. Back in the days of rotary tuners they sold a cleaning/lubricating spray that would help, but that's hard to find now.


----------



## jeep05




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you are getting that poor detection performance, I'm not sure that a pre-amp would help enough. The primary purpose for a pre-amp to make up for the signal loss from a long cable run. Have you tried moving the antenna aim to the left and to the right? Raise or lower your antenna a couple of feet? With the antenna up there on the roof of a two story house, tweaking the aim is difficult and a bit dangerous. But the antenna may be in a dead spot or need to be aimed off to one side or the other because of the trees. Did you try the antenna out from the ground before putting it up on the roof just to see what it picked up? I would also double check your co-axial RG-6 cable connections to make sure that they are all tight and have no moisture in them.
> 
> 
> If you can't improve the reception of your locals at all, you may have to look into getting a UHF antenna with more gain such as the AntennasDirect 91XG combined with a pre-amp.



Thanks again afiggatt










Moved it left to right a few times but did not try it while on the ground. As you said, being a two story house, it becomes difficult to do allot of moving to different locations. All cables and connections are OK and new.


What other antennas would be suggested, that maybe would be more useful and smaller in size that could be mounted easier, either on the roof or on gable end? I really expected the Winegard to perform much better than it did, and i'm not quite at the point of giving up on it, short of killing myself on the roof.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jeep05* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks again afiggatt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moved it left to right a few times but did not try it while on the ground. As you said, being a two story house, it becomes difficult to do allot of moving to different locations. All cables and connections are OK and new.
> 
> 
> What other antennas would be suggested, that maybe would be more useful and smaller in size that could be mounted easier, either on the roof or on gable end? I really expected the Winegard to perform much better than it did, and i'm not quite at the point of giving up on it, short of killing myself on the roof.



You are only 40 miles from the stations. You should be getting some stations with that antenna, even with dense woods. If you have the antenna up on a pole, try lowering it several feet. Or take it down and try it from a second floor window or balcony. Your antenna may be at a bad location or there is something wrong with the setup. Try a scan at night to see if you have any better luck in picking up the local stations. Also, there is nothing in the signal path other than RG-6 cabling? No amps, no splitters?


There is also the possibility that you have a defective ATSC tuner. What are you using? TV tuner or external STB? If you know someone with a STB ATSC tuner you could borrow, you may want to test it to see if you can get the stations with it.


----------



## catherwood

Hi everyone, question on either the db8/cm4228 vrs the db4/cm4221. I plan on doing an attic install, I am on a ridge with clear view of both tranmission clusters. One cluster is 16 miles away and one is 35 miles away. The clusters are 55 degrees apart.


My question : is the db8/cm4228 to directional to pick up both clusters...I am hoping to direct it at the farther cluster and still pick up the nearer. I understand that the db4/cm4221 is designed to pick up a much wider spread of signals, but I was aftaid it would not be powerful enough to pick up the 35 mile cluster from the attic.


Thanks for your help


----------



## jeep05




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You are only 40 miles from the stations. You should be getting some stations with that antenna, even with dense woods. If you have the antenna up on a pole, try lowering it several feet. Or take it down and try it from a second floor window or balcony. Your antenna may be at a bad location or there is something wrong with the setup. Try a scan at night to see if you have any better luck in picking up the local stations. Also, there is nothing in the signal path other than RG-6 cabling? No amps, no splitters?
> 
> 
> There is also the possibility that you have a defective ATSC tuner. What are you using? TV tuner or external STB? If you know someone with a STB ATSC tuner you could borrow, you may want to test it to see if you can get the stations with it.



Moved it over to the other side of the roof on the front corner and down 3 feet. Bingo!...........................get em all.










Thanks for the help afiggatt


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *catherwood* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi everyone, question on either the db8/cm4228 vrs the db4/cm4221. I plan on doing an attic install, I am on a ridge with clear view of both tranmission clusters. One cluster is 16 miles away and one is 35 miles away. The clusters are 55 degrees apart.
> 
> 
> My question : is the db8/cm4228 to directional to pick up both clusters...I am hoping to direct it at the farther cluster and still pick up the nearer. I understand that the db4/cm4221 is designed to pick up a much wider spread of signals, but I was aftaid it would not be powerful enough to pick up the 35 mile cluster from the attic.



I have a similar situation. I choose the CM 4221 precisely because of it's combination of good medium range performance and wide pickup pattern. I have Baltimore stations at 43 miles at 61 degrees azimuth and Washington DC stations at 16 miles mostly around 113 degrees in azimuth. That is a 50+ degree spread in azimuth. The CM 4221 is in the attic and aimed at the more distant Baltimore stations. It gets the stations in both cities along with other stations scattered around in azimuth. I live in a townhouse and the direction to the Baltimore stations is obstructed by the top of 3 townhouses down the row. I added a CM 7777 pre-amp to make up for the signal loss of the obstructions and the cable run.


If you have a clear view of both sets of broadcast towers, the CM 4221 should do the job. However, are all of the stations in both cities digitally broadcasting on UHF? The CM 4221 has some pickup for upper VHF, but it probably won't work very well for any upper VHF stations in the 35 mile group. I get good quality pictures for the analog channels WJLA 7 and WUSA 9 in DC with my CM 4221, very noisy pictures for the analog channels WBAL 11 and WJZ 13 at 43 miles.


If you look at the performance charts at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html for the DB4 vs the CM 4221, the Cm 4221 is a bit better according to that website.


----------



## eberniard

I would like to get a recommendation on mounting an antenna above a drop ceiling. Has anyone tried using the Zenith GEMDTV-1? This would fit pretty well in the given space. I am using a silver sensor right now (on a table) with an amp and I get everything except WUCW which I assume must be due to a weaker transmitter.


My zip code is 55119.


yellow - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS 327° 11.1 26

yellow - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS 325° 11.7 35

yellow - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS 325° 11.7 32

yellow - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS 327° 11.1 21

yellow - uhf KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MINNEAPOLIS 325° 11.7 44

yellow - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL 325° 11.7 50

yellow - uhf KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS ST. PAUL 327° 11.0 34

green - uhf KTCI-DT 17.1 PBS ST. PAUL 327° 11.0 16

red - uhf WUCW-DT 23.1 CW MINNEAPOLIS 325° 11.7 22


Thanks,

Chip


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *eberniard* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Has anyone tried using the Zenith GEMDTV-1?



If you want to try something of a similar design and size that's half the price and will probably give you twice the results (and can be bought and easily returned locally), try the Radio Shack U75R.


Honestly, I don't think I've ever heard of any good reviews of the GEMDTV-1 by people here who have tried it. 'Course, I could be wrong.


----------



## holl_ands

To begin with, the GEMDTV-1 might actually fit cuz it's a lot smaller than R-S U75R.

I don't think enough people have used them--much less conducted a comparison test....

It looks like it's optimized for upper UHF channels.....same as Silver Sensor...


A picture showing BOTH antennas was posted on 27Feb2005

and scroll to bottom for a picture of a triple GEMDTV-1 installation in the attic:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1111472397


----------



## catherwood




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a similar situation. I choose the CM 4221 precisely because of it's combination of good medium range performance and wide pickup pattern. I have Baltimore stations at 43 miles at 61 degrees azimuth and Washington DC stations at 16 miles mostly around 113 degrees in azimuth. That is a 50+ degree spread in azimuth. The CM 4221 is in the attic and aimed at the more distant Baltimore stations. It gets the stations in both cities along with other stations scattered around in azimuth. I live in a townhouse and the direction to the Baltimore stations is obstructed by the top of 3 townhouses down the row. I added a CM 7777 pre-amp to make up for the signal loss of the obstructions and the cable run.
> 
> 
> If you have a clear view of both sets of broadcast towers, the CM 4221 should do the job. However, are all of the stations in both cities digitally broadcasting on UHF? The CM 4221 has some pickup for upper VHF, but it probably won't work very well for any upper VHF stations in the 35 mile group. I get good quality pictures for the analog channels WJLA 7 and WUSA 9 in DC with my CM 4221, very noisy pictures for the analog channels WBAL 11 and WJZ 13 at 43 miles.
> 
> 
> 
> If you look at the performance charts at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html for the DB4 vs the CM 4221, the Cm 4221 is a bit better according to that website.



Thanks for the info. Yes all the broadcast towers are digital. I went to that antenna.org site and selected only digital boradcast towers. I was hoping that the CM4228 would get both because it is supposed to do pretty good with VHF also. I did look at the pickup patterns of both, but I wanted to make sure that I was interperting them correctly. Looks like I was, as you apparently came to the same conclusion, and have been quite successful with the 4221. I havent investigated pre-amps. If I do need a signal boost, I may have to go this route. Where does the 7777 reside.. at the antenna or at the reciever? What is the MSRP?

thanks again


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *catherwood* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info. Yes all the broadcast towers are digital. I went to that antenna.org site and selected only digital boradcast towers. I was hoping that the CM4228 would get both because it is supposed to do pretty good with VHF also. I did look at the pickup patterns of both, but I wanted to make sure that I was interperting them correctly. Looks like I was, as you apparently came to the same conclusion, and have been quite successful with the 4221. I havent investigated pre-amps. If I do need a signal boost, I may have to go this route. Where does the 7777 reside.. at the antenna or at the reciever? What is the MSRP?



The CM 7777 pre-amp is placed at the antenna close to the start of the cable run. You run a short coaxial from the antenna to the CM 7777 clamped to the pole. The CM 7777 is powered through the co-axial cable line so the power supply can be placed at the other end of the cable run near a electrical outlet. The CM 7777 has dual inputs for VHF and UHF so you could run a separate VHF antenna to it if you needed to. The CM 7777 is also the most powerful pre-amp CM offers and may be too much gain if one is too close to the broadcast towers. Both Winegard and Channel Master offer a range of pre-amps.


I would suggest you try the antenna first without a pre-amp. If you have a clear view and the cable run is not too long, odds are that you will get good reception w/o a pre-amp. If you get dropouts or have weak stations, then add a pre-amp. Check the prices and specs at the reputable on-line dealers such as solidsignal.com or warrenelectronics.com.


If you provide your zip code, we can verify that all of the stations are broadcasting digitally on UHF and whether they will stay on UHF after the analog shutdown in 2009. In the Washington DC and Baltimore markets for example, channels 7, 9, 11, 13 will be switching their current UHF digital broadcast to their analog channel assignment after the analog shutdown in February, 2009.


----------



## otaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I went to Antennaweb for your location. I entered an imaginary tower 300' tall. The digital stations in Allentown did not show up, only the two analogs. It did pop in with a 1000' tower. It's not likely that a simple setup will receive DTV from Allentown.
> 
> 
> The number of stations in Philly that are close to you preclude the use of a preamp, even the highly rated HDP-269, unless you use a channel filter prior to the preamp. WLVT-DT is on channel 62. So a large antenna such as the 91XG, a channel 62 channel filter, and finally the preamp would be your only hope. Even then, I'd be surprised if it worked.



Thanks for your help and thanks for pointing out the Antennaweb capability of putting in a different antenna height (I didn't know it would do that). I think I'm going to give up on the idea of receiving WLVT OTA. I'm 46 miles away and there must be some tall hills in the way and WLVT is low power to begin with.


The information at Antennaweb isn't perfect - with a hypothethical 1000' tower it doesn't even mention two stations which I lock in easily with my actual 30' high antenna - WMCN and WNJS, both broadcasting from the same location in Camden NJ.


----------



## otaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jspENC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ]
> 
> 
> OTA guy,
> 
> I am also using that Motorola receiver and the bars are not right on it. Basically they are reversed. If you are seeing yellow bars then that is very strong, if the bars go all the way across to the right in green then that is a weak signal. Tune in a channel, go to the manual scan menu and run that. Look at the SNR rate. If it is 25 DB that is as strong as you can get. If it is 15 that is very weak. I would say anything over 16 on that SNR reading is good.



I've always thought that the signal strength meter on the Motorola HDT100 STB is kind of funky and clunky and not very useful. When you try to add stations manually there might be a SNR reading of something like 10 before you start the scan and if the channel is added successfully it might then give a SNR reading of 25 but if it doesn't work it might read 10 and then you rotate the antenna a couple of degrees and it works and gives an SNR of 25.


The other thing it does is occasionally forgets some of the channels or puts in multiple copies of the same channel in the channel list (6.1,6.1,6.1,6.2,6.2,6.2 or similar) at which point the only remedy is to scan all of the channels again which takes a good fifteen minutes. Another owner of this unit reported that it would occasionally change the password for no apparent reason; apparently there's something glitchy in the memory on this box. Mine mostly works so I'm not going to swap it out until prices on HDTV's with integrated tuners come down a little more.


----------



## catherwood




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The CM 7777 pre-amp is placed at the antenna close to the start of the cable run. You run a short coaxial from the antenna to the CM 7777 clamped to the pole. The CM 7777 is powered through the co-axial cable line so the power supply can be placed at the other end of the cable run near a electrical outlet. The CM 7777 has dual inputs for VHF and UHF so you could run a separate VHF antenna to it if you needed to. The CM 7777 is also the most powerful pre-amp CM offers and may be too much gain if one is too close to the broadcast towers. Both Winegard and Channel Master offer a range of pre-amps.
> 
> 
> I would suggest you try the antenna first without a pre-amp. If you have a clear view and the cable run is not too long, odds are that you will get good reception w/o a pre-amp. If you get dropouts or have weak stations, then add a pre-amp. Check the prices and specs at the reputable on-line dealers such as solidsignal.com or warrenelectronics.com.
> 
> 
> If you provide your zip code, we can verify that all of the stations are broadcasting digitally on UHF and whether they will stay on UHF after the analog shutdown in 2009. In the Washington DC and Baltimore markets for example, channels 7, 9, 11, 13 will be switching their current UHF digital broadcast to their analog channel assignment after the analog shutdown in February, 2009.



Thanks Ill do that. I am interested in which broadcasts may change in 2009, my zip is 35124...but that is misleading from my location high on a ridge I can get broadcasts from the following cities: Birmingham, Al. 16miles, Tuscaloosa, Al. 35 miles, Anniston, Al. 45miles. I dont know the zip codes for these cities. thanks


----------



## dmanko

I recently purchased the Pioneer 1140 plasma and am trying to make a decision on whether to upgrade my current Dish service to the HD DVR or make a switch to Direct tV. In the meantime, i would like to use OTA signal to enjoy the benefits of HDTV.


I live in West los Angeles. Based on the antennaweb website (AVS would nto let me post the link until I have posted more than 5 messages) I am approx 22 - 23 mile from the tower. Orientation of channels is between 41 to 45. The required antenna type was yellow - small multi directional.


Currently there is a large roof antenna on the house (was there when we purchased the house - I do not have any info on it). I managed to find where this was coming into the house and ran a cable (about 50ft) from the outlet to the current location of the TV. I was able to get a lot of channels but many are pixelated and broken (most importantly for me ABC and CBS). I used the TV menu to evaluate the signal strength - which came in only at 20. I tried going up on the roof to see if I could adjust the positioning (rotate) of the antenna. I was not able to - I did not see any mechanism which would allow one to rotate the antenna. I think if I proceed with this I will have to get a professional into to move it.


My questions are:


1. Is it worth the expense of getting someone in to try make this antenna work optimally or should I just switch out to a "cheap" indoor antennae.


2. could the distance that I am running the cable be effecting the reception


3. In reviewing the forum I have seen reference made to an amplifier. Is this something that might help?


4. long term - once I decide on the Dish vs DirectTV - if I wanted to continue receiving locals channels from OTA broadcast would I be able to record these on my satellite HDDVR. I would not want to have two recording devices - one for satellite and one for OTA.


Any and all advise help is appreciated.


Thanks


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *catherwood* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks Ill do that. I am interested in which broadcasts may change in 2009, my zip is 35124...but that is misleading from my location high on a ridge I can get broadcasts from the following cities: Birmingham, Al. 16miles, Tuscaloosa, Al. 35 miles, Anniston, Al. 45miles. I dont know the zip codes for these cities. thanks



Good thing you posted your zip because you have one local digital broadcasting on VHF 5. The CM 4221 is very unlikely to receive that channel. You can compensate for a random low elevation point for a zip code by entering a height for the antenna under the options link. I used your zip with a height of 600 feet and then sorted by azimuth to make the groupings of stations easier to read. The last number on each row is the actual broadcast channel #.


WPXH-DT 44.1 i GADSDEN AL 26° 43.9 45

WJSU-DT 40.1 ABC ANNISTON AL 48° 29.5 9

WUOA-DT 23 i TUSCALOOSA AL 250° 47.4 23

WCFT-DT 33.1 ABC TUSCALOOSA AL 289° 38.7 5

WDBB-DT 18.1 CW BESSEMER AL 01-07 290° 37.1 18

WABM-DT 68.1 MNT BIRMINGHAM AL 357° 11.8 36

WBIQ-DT 10.1 PBS BIRMINGHAM AL 357° 11.8 53

WIAT-DT 42.1 CBS BIRMINGHAM AL 357° 11.8 30

WTTO-DT 21.1 CW HOMEWOOD AL 357° 11.8 28

WBRC-DT 6.1 FOX BIRMINGHAM AL 359° 12.1 50

WVTM-DT 13.1 NBC BIRMINGHAM AL 0° 12.2 52


You have a WJSU-DT ABC 40 in Anniston broadcasting on VHF 9 and a WCFT-DT ABC 33 in Tuscaloosa broadcasting on lower VHF 5. WDFT-DT 33 will be switching to channel 33 for the digital broadcast after the analog shutdown in February, 2009. WBIQ-DT 10 and WVTM-DT 13 in Birmingham will be switching their digital channel to 10 and 13.


I expect the CM 4221 will get the two upper VHF stations in Birmingham at 16 miles come 2009. It is a poor candidate to get the WJSU ABC station in Anniston on VHF 9 at ~ 45 miles. It is very unlikely to get the WCFT ABC station in Tuscaloosa down at VHF 5. The CM 4221 has some response for upper VHF 7 to 13, none for lower VHF 2 to 6. If you want to receive that station before Feb, 2009 you will need a VHF antenna; it is too far away for rabbit ears to work.


Given the wide spread in azimuth and the VHF ABC stations, your situation is complicated. You could still get the CM 4221 but combine it with a upper VHF antenna such as the Winegard YA6713. A simpler approach would be to try a more conventional VHF/UHF V shaped antenna but a medium range model which is not so directional on the UHF reception. I suggest you go to the Channel Master, Winegard, and AntennasDirect web sites and look at the specs and beam patterns for the various antennas.


Anyone have a suggestion for a broader beam combined VHF/UHF antenna which should be able to pick up both cities?


----------



## eberniard

Thanks for the link and the feedback. I do have a local retailer (Menards) that stocks the GEMDTV-1, so my plan is to try it out. It is about three times the price of the U-75R but as you pointed out a bit smaller. I first want to see if something will work in the confined space of my drop ceiling. If the performance is no better than the silver sensor, then the next step is to try mounting something in the attic for which the U-75R may be better suited.


----------



## pduncan

I currently have a CM4228 and 7777 amp. Since one of my HD signals is Ch 9 (WISH out of Indianapolis), I get a lot of breakup, so I purchased a Channel Master 3671, which I haven't hooked up yet.


I am right in the middle between Louisville and Indianapolis. What I was thinking about doing is Pointing the 3671 towards Indianapolis and the 4228 toward Louisville. Have them on the same mast, but about 5' apart.


Now for the questions:

1. What is the best way to combine two antennas like this? Would a splitter/combiner work to join the two. ((The 7777 had two inputs, one for VHF only and one for UHF/Combo. So that won't work. ))


2. Is Five feet enough of a separation. This will be on a 30' tower so I think it will be strong enough to handle the weight.


3. Is this a dumb thing to do?


Pretty much only use this for HD, so ghosting due to two antennas pointing in opposite directions isn't really and issue (I don't think), but I understand it probably would be for Analog.


So what say the experts?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pduncan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I currently have a CM4228 and 7777 amp. Since one of my HD signals is Ch 9 (WISH out of Indianapolis), I get a lot of breakup, so I purchased a Channel Master 3671, which I haven't hooked up yet.
> 
> 
> So what say the experts?



5' spacing is fine.


If you have a rotator you could mount the 3671 on one tower leg and aimed at Indy and use the 7777 VHF input or a channel 9 jointenna to add it to the rotating UHF antenna. Leave the rotator aimed in the most used position and turn it just to get the other market.


You could try to add the two antennas in a splitter. If there is little ghosting it might work. The loss of the splitter will make it harder to get the distant market. If it works, that's ideal, but trail and error is the only way to know for sure.


Some use an A/B switch to switch between antennas. If you have more than one HD tuner you could connect one antenna to one box and the other to the HDTV set itself.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pduncan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I currently have a CM4228 and 7777 amp. Since one of my HD signals is Ch 9 (WISH out of Indianapolis), I get a lot of breakup, so I purchased a Channel Master 3671, which I haven't hooked up yet.
> 
> 
> I am right in the middle between Louisville and Indianapolis. What I was thinking about doing is Pointing the 3671 towards Indianapolis and the 4228 toward Louisville. Have them on the same mast, but about 5' apart.
> 
> 
> Now for the questions:
> 
> 1. What is the best way to combine two antennas like this? Would a splitter/combiner work to join the two. ((The 7777 had two inputs, one for VHF only and one for UHF/Combo. So that won't work. ))
> 
> 
> 2. Is Five feet enough of a separation. This will be on a 30' tower so I think it will be strong enough to handle the weight.
> 
> 
> 3. Is this a dumb thing to do??



Use the uhf input for the 4228 and vhf input for the 3671 on the CM7777 and you should be good to go. Point the antennas independently as the 7777 will diplex the signal for you. You will have VHF-only from the 3671 and UHF-only from the 4228. Be sure the internal switch on the 7777 is set to "separate".


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> To begin with, the GEMDTV-1 might actually fit cuz it's a lot smaller than R-S U75R.
> 
> I don't think enough people have used them--much less conducted a comparison test....
> 
> It looks like it's optimized for upper UHF channels.....same as Silver Sensor...
> 
> 
> A picture showing BOTH antennas was posted on 27Feb2005
> 
> and scroll to bottom for a picture of a triple GEMDTV-1 installation in the attic:
> http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1111472397



Yeah, I wasn't picturing them accurately in my head. The reflector on the Zenith is smaller.


I think a couple of guys on our local thread tried it and didn't have too much luck with it. But I suppose it's pretty similar in performance. I can say that I often get stations over 60 miles away with my U75R, though.


----------



## TiVoComBlankMan

To receive OTA I installed a Channel Master 4228 in my attic. I added a Radio Shack two piece amplifier, half mounted by the antenna, half by the TV, and all in all was getting a strong enough signal for my HR10-250.


I recently purchased a Samsung 1080p DLP HL-S5687W and since it has an HD tuner I connected the antenna to it also. I was getting a decent signal but was seeing some minor pixelation and audio dropouts every few minutes on 2 OTA channels.


So embarking on a quest to correct that I looked for an amplifier/splitter combination and didn't really find too many choices that had a decent gain on all 4 outputs. I was trying to locate a Channel Master 3044 locally but the only place I found one wanted $12 over MSRP.


So I called this Skywalker Communications place that Channel Master lists as a distributor. They didn't have one so I let the guy talk me into a $10 Skywalker 25db Amp and a 4-way splitter. Well adding that Amp inline did not improve anything, in fact I got no reception on any channel on any receiver.


Turns out I was probably overdriving the signal. So just for grins I took the RS unit out of the config thinking that won't work because it also supplies power to the antenna mounted amp and it will be dead so there will be no signal. Well, to my surprise there was a signal and not too bad of one either.


So that prompted me to then bypass the amp mounted by the antenna and just use the Skywalker amp by the TV. That worked pretty good. Even better it turns out then the RS amp. My signal strength increased on just about every channel. Ok, the RS amp is out the Skywalker amp is in.


But I was still getting those occasional drop outs on one channel. So I decided to try re-aiming the antenna. I have a map indicating the direction of all the transmitter antennas and I had my antenna pointed in that direction then fine tuned it for signal strength.


Well it appears that by rotating the antenna about 15 degrees I was able to increase the signal strength on just about every channel. Now half of them are in the 90's, with the remainder in the mid 80's to low 90's. Quite an improvement. But I still get those occasional dropouts on one OTA channel even though it's signal strength is in the 88-90 range (out of 100).


So what I've have now is a Channel Master 4228 in the attic with about a 75 ft run to the Skywalker 25db adjustable gsin amplifier, the output of which connects to s Spaun 5x8 MultiSwitch. I then use splitters by the receivers to split the outputs from the Spaun into the DTV receiver component and the OTA component and connect them accordingly.


----------



## Davinleeds

I would try direct feed, no splitters etc. just as an experiment to see if dropouts stop-you're getting close.


----------



## Trickie Dickie

I Have Just Recieved A 30" Sony Widescreen Hdtv With A Phillips Hdtv Model Mant510 Antenna. I Can Only Recieve Abc Hdtv,nothing Else Comes In.i Live In Warner Robins,ga.the Search Shows That I Should Have Many Channels To Choose From. Do You Have Any Sugestions That Might Help? ""merry Christmas""


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Trickie Dickie* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I Have Just Recieved A 30" Sony Widescreen Hdtv With A Phillips Hdtv Model Mant510 Antenna. I Can Only Recieve Abc Hdtv,nothing Else Comes In.i Live In Warner Robins,ga.the Search Shows That I Should Have Many Channels To Choose From. Do You Have Any Sugestions That Might Help?



Your zip code will make it easier for people to look up your antennaweb.org results and your local stations. The Philips Mant 510 is an indoor antenna and only suitable for closer to broadcast tower situations. The first steps are to position the antenna in a spot with a clear view in the direction of the broadcast towers, move to several different locations if you are not getting all the stations, and tweak the aim of the flat plate for the digital UHF stations and the rabbit ears for any DIGITAL VHF stations you may have.


----------



## thisisfun

Hi all,


A bit confused about OTA reception. I am in the Detroit

area but I am not sure if this is a particularly location

dependent question (unless other Detroit-area people are

seeing what I am seeing???)


(Last wk), I hooked up a Samsung tuner (SIR T351) to an

antenna and pointed the antenna towards the cluster of

Detroit stations. I am using a Radio Shack amp about 3'

from the antenna hookup. After monkeying around w/ the

antenna position, I now get all the stations in that cluster

(7 HD and a handful of SD's too). There is a "signal

strength" meter on the Samsung and every station gets either

8 or 9 bars (of 10). And every station comes in crystal

clear except ABC, which has periods of block-like artifacts

when the signal strength either stays at 8/9, or just drops

to zero before recovering.


Is anyone else seeing problems like this w/ the Detroit ABC

station? Or could my hardware have some bizarre,

station-dependent problem ?


Thx!


----------



## dsm1212

I've got a channelmaster that I've had for about 16 years. I've got a radio shack preamp on the mast. I'm not sure what model either of these are unfortunately, but the antenna is about 10 feet long. Looks like a crossfire in the newer models. I have directv with an HD Tivo, but I also have a couple of sets just hooked to the antenna so it needs to do more than just high UHF.


I can pick up 2,4,5,7, 44 very clearly in HD out of boston, but Fox 25 in HD is very sporadic. Most of the times there is not enough signal to get a picture. This hasn't bothered me so much but I've got this large front projection screen now and the 2007 super bowl will be on Fox. What do you recommend I do to try to pull in Fox 25 in HD?


I've actually got an unused new rotor that's been sitting here for a couple of years in my basement. I got directv and never bothered to put it up. But there is no other fox in the area so I don't think that will help.


New antenna? New amplifier? Both? The easiest thing for me to do would be to pick up a new amplifier and try that first, but frankly I have a feeling the Rat Shack model isn't all that bad. It sure makes a big difference when it is not in use.


-steve


----------



## dsm1212

Also, my zip is 01462 and I think I'm about 30 miles west of the HD transmitters in Boston. Antennaweb for my address doesn't even list the stations I can get quite clearly!


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *thisisfun* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There is a "signal strength" meter on the Samsung and every station gets either 8 or 9 bars (of 10). And every station comes in crystal clear except ABC, which has periods of block-like artifacts when the signal strength either stays at 8/9, or just drops to zero before recovering.
> 
> 
> Is anyone else seeing problems like this w/ the Detroit ABC station? Or could my hardware have some bizarre,station-dependent problem ?



You could be having multi-path problems with the WXYZ-DT ABC 7 (41) station. Or it could be signal fluctuation because of moving trees & leaves. Looking at a antennaweb list for Detroit, the broadcast towers, with the exception of combined CBS, PBS, MNT tower are at different locations. If you questions about the station, go to the Detroit thread in the Local Reception forum. First step is to try different aims for the antenna. Then if that doesn't work, tell us what antenna you have, indoor or outdoor setup, and post your zip code so we can evaluate whether you have the right antenna for your situation.


Also the Samsung SIR-T351 is several generations old. The new Samsung DTB-H260F is getting a lot of positive reports for locking in stations that were frequently not solid with older STB ATSC tuners. But a new $180 ATSC STB is the expensive route. Try tweaking the antenna setup first.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dsm1212* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also, my zip is 01462 and I think I'm about 30 miles west of the HD transmitters in Boston. Antennaweb for my address doesn't even list the stations I can get quite clearly!



Check with the Boston OTA thread ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=28454 ) for info on the Boston WFXT-DT Fox station. The FCC database (accessible through http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WFXT ) for the digital signal shows a licensed power of only 78 KW. There is an application for a full 1000 KW, but I recall seeing posts before about the Fox station in Boston being at not very high power.


Antennaweb.org is very conservative on digital reception. Try entering your address, but this time click on the options link and enter a height of 100 or 200 feet or even higher. See what digital stations now show up on their list. As for the Radio Shack pre-amp, the Channel Master and Winegard pre-amps are regarded as the better brands.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dsm1212* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This hasn't bothered me so much but I've got this large front projection screen now and the 2007 super bowl will be on Fox. What do you recommend I do to try to pull in Fox 25 in HD?
> 
> -steve



The superbowl will be on CBS this year.


----------



## thisisfun

Hi,


Thanks VERY much for the reply! I have posted a similar

question over at the Detroit thread.


Multipath eh? So (I am new to this so plz forgive newbie

HDTV questions!) that would be coherent interference

between the xmitter-antenna signal and the

xmitter-SUV_in_the_street-antenna signal? If so, kind of

weird that it does not affect the other channels, unless

the extra xmitter-street-antenna distance just happens to

be a diabolical multiple of pi/4 wavelengths at the ABC

frequency but not the other channel frequencies?


I am using an antenna that was left in my garage by the

previous owner of my place. He left it up on the studs in

the top part of the garage so I just turned it towards the

Detroit broadcast cluster (I am zip 48105, so I tried to

get it about 65 degrees E (CW) of N -- I hope I interpreted

the antennaweb information correctly). It is a Channel

Master (maybe 10' long, w/ some rust so prob. pretty old!).

I am running it inside to my basement -- prob. about 50'

of coax before it gets to the T351. As it turns out, I

borrowed the T351 from a friend of mine at work just to

see if I could receive HD over the air, so now that I am

hooked







I need to go out and get a receiver pretty

quickly anyway to avoid abusing my friend's kindness. I

can easily pick up a DTB-H260F, prob. this afternoon

(if not sold out at local BestBuy/Circuit City).


Thanks again, I can see why everyone is so excited about

HD, what an amazing picture ....


----------



## ama299

Hello


I would like some of your opinions on which antenna would be best for me. Here is the info from antennaweb.org. I contacted solidsignal and they recommend the Ch 6371 I think that might be more then what I would need plus that antenna is huge thats my problem with it. I hoping the ch4228 will work. I have a little B&W tv out in the garage that has just a stick antenna and I'm able to pick up 3 channels with some snow. I'm looking to get HD channels


blue - vhf WCCO 4 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.8 4

blue - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.8 32

blue - uhf WFTC 29 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.5 29

blue - vhf KTCA 2 PBS ST. PAUL MN 221° 47.5 2

blue - uhf KTCI 17 PBS ST. PAUL MN 221° 47.6 17

blue - uhf KPXM 41 i ST. CLOUD MN 257° 61.0 41

blue - vhf KMSP 9 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.5 9

blue - uhf WUCW 23 CW MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.8 23

blue - vhf KARE 11 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.8 11

blue - uhf KSTC 45 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.8 45

blue - vhf KSTP 5 ABC ST. PAUL MN 221° 47.8 5

blue - uhf WHWC 28 PBS MENOMONIE WI 140° 47.2 28

violet - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL MN 221° 47.8 50

violet - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.8 35

violet - uhf W24CL 24 PBS GRANTSBURG WI 0° 18.2 24

violet - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.5 26

violet - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.5 21


Thanks


----------



## dsm1212

>> The superbowl will be on CBS this year.


Hey you're right Tower Guy. I misread the superbowl site and was looking at the wrong year.


afiggatt - Thanks for the pointers. Maybe Fox will be boosting their signal in the future. It sounds like I should do the easy thing first and upgrade the amplifier.


thanks,


steve


----------



## texasbrit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ama299* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello
> 
> 
> I would like some of your opinions on which antenna would be best for me. Here is the info from antennaweb.org. I contacted solidsignal and they recommend the Ch 6371 I think that might be more then what I would need plus that antenna is huge thats my problem with it. I hoping the ch4228 will work. I have a little B&W tv out in the garage that has just a stick antenna and I'm able to pick up 3 channels with some snow. I'm looking to get HD channels
> 
> 
> blue - vhf WCCO 4 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.8 4
> 
> blue - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.8 32
> 
> blue - uhf WFTC 29 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.5 29
> 
> blue - vhf KTCA 2 PBS ST. PAUL MN 221° 47.5 2
> 
> blue - uhf KTCI 17 PBS ST. PAUL MN 221° 47.6 17
> 
> blue - uhf KPXM 41 i ST. CLOUD MN 257° 61.0 41
> 
> blue - vhf KMSP 9 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.5 9
> 
> blue - uhf WUCW 23 CW MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.8 23
> 
> blue - vhf KARE 11 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.8 11
> 
> blue - uhf KSTC 45 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.8 45
> 
> blue - vhf KSTP 5 ABC ST. PAUL MN 221° 47.8 5
> 
> blue - uhf WHWC 28 PBS MENOMONIE WI 140° 47.2 28
> 
> violet - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL MN 221° 47.8 50
> 
> violet - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.8 35
> 
> violet - uhf W24CL 24 PBS GRANTSBURG WI 0° 18.2 24
> 
> violet - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.5 26
> 
> violet - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.5 21
> 
> 
> Thanks



So if you just want digital channels, antennaweb shows KSTP-DT ABC, KARE-DT NBC, KMSP_DT FOX, and WCCO-DT CBS. They are all on UHF today. But KMSP will be going back to channel 9 and KARE back to channel 11 when analog goes away in 2009. Your two PBS stations in Minneapolis don't show up but they may still be in the antennaweb database as low-power.


The recommendation for the 3671 is not a bad one if you want to receive the analog VHF stations between now and 2009. For the UHF digitals either the CM4228 or the Antennas Direct 91XG would be a better choice, mounted outside as high as you can, coupled with a CM7777 preamp. Both these antennas are UHF but with some performance on VHF-hi as well, but in 2009 when analog goes away you will probably need to add a VHF-hi antenna to get KARE and KMSP, maybe you can worry about that when it happens. There are a couple of VHF-hi antennas around and you may see more of these as 2009 approaches.


----------



## ama299




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasbrit* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So if you just want digital channels, antennaweb shows KSTP-DT ABC, KARE-DT NBC, KMSP_DT FOX, and WCCO-DT CBS. They are all on UHF today. But KMSP will be going back to channel 9 and KARE back to channel 11 when analog goes away in 2009. Your two PBS stations in Minneapolis don't show up but they may still be in the antennaweb database as low-power.
> 
> 
> The recommendation for the 3671 is not a bad one if you want to receive the analog VHF stations between now and 2009. For the UHF digitals either the CM4228 or the Antennas Direct 91XG would be a better choice, mounted outside as high as you can, coupled with a CM7777 preamp. Both these antennas are UHF but with some performance on VHF-hi as well, but in 2009 when analog goes away you will probably need to add a VHF-hi antenna to get KARE and KMSP, maybe you can worry about that when it happens. There are a couple of VHF-hi antennas around and you may see more of these as 2009 approaches.



Thanks for all the info. The analog VHF stations are not that important to me so I will try either the 91XG or the CM4228.


----------



## smackman1

I am installing a channel master 4228. All of my signals come from different directions. My question is should I install a pre-amp? One of my towers is 15 miles away the other is 35 miles away in opposite direction 15 degrees compared to 165 degrees compared to due north. I have a old small yagi on a 20' pole right now that will bring in the station 35 miles away and also pick up the other station on the backside with no pre-amp. The 35 mile station is at 57 signal strength the other at 72. I realize and hope the 4228 will get better gain than this old yagi I have straped up there that I actually dismantled from a 20 year old uhf-vhf antenna. The yagi is sorta pointed upwards also instead of being straight. The 57 signal strength will try to pixil sometimes. I have a channel master 3041 DSB pre- amp that I paid 30 dollars for at Lowes. Will a pre-amp cause me problems? I am hoping to pick up the strong station from the backside of 4228; I am doing this now with this yagi. I also might be able to pick up shreveport Louisiana with 4228 but will need pre-amp because I am 70 miles away. Will pre-amp cause problems when some stations are real close but needed for far away stations? If I install pre-amp do you suggest using 300 ohm twin lead from antenna to pre-amp? This pre-amp has a 300 ohm input. I have heard that matching transformers will cause a 2 db loss which would give me a 4 db loss before I ever hit the pre-amp. I have some good300 ohm twin lead. If I can pick up Shreveport I will install rotor later.

Thanks

Smackman


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smackman1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am installing a channel master 4228. All of my signals come from different directions. My question is should I install a pre-amp?



Try it first without the pre-amp. If you are satisfied leave it that way.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smackman1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Will a pre-amp cause me problems?



It could. Many pre-amps overload easily in the presence of strong signals.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smackman1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am hoping to pick up the strong station from the backside of 4228; I am doing this now with this yagi.



Might work. Try it.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smackman1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I also might be able to pick up shreveport Louisiana with 4228 but will need pre-amp because I am 70 miles away. Will pre-amp cause problems when some stations are real close but needed for far away stations? If I install pre-amp do you suggest using 300 ohm twin lead from antenna to pre-amp? This pre-amp has a 300 ohm input. I have heard that matching transformers will cause a 2 db loss which would give me a 4 db loss before I ever hit the pre-amp. I have some good300 ohm twin lead. If I can pick up Shreveport I will install rotor later.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Smackman



I use a 4228 with a preamp to pick up several stations from 70 to 75 miles away. But, I don't get 24/7 reception from any of them. I have two other stations at 90 degrees from where the antenna is pointed that are only 25 miles away and I get good reception from them all the time.


----------



## Davinleeds

I get 60mile plus channels from the backside of my 4228. But in direction of hills, only the 91xg will zero in. I can leave the 4228 in one position and get 95% of my channels. Site specific requires use of both. Over the hills, the 4228 drops out every 20 seconds but the 91xg will give me a 60 to 90% reception. Sometimes you need both to tame the multipath beast.


----------



## ewitte

Completely flat terrain and very few buildings (there is a 2 store house next door). Information on anntenaweb. Most stations are UHF between 84-88 degrees and 10-12 miles. The majority list the color code as "yellow." Will the DB4 in the attic perform well? Most lower frequncy vhf stations are analog and have a UHF digital showing the exact same content so this antenna will pick up nearly everything listed at antennaweb save 3-4 out of about 37 stations. Actually pretty much all of the vhf stations are analog and have a digital version on UHF. Except for one 50 miles away in Conroe I can live without. And channel 8 (PBS) on frequency 9 thats 11.7 miles away. I can live without that and/or watch it on sat if needed.


I'd say directional at 86 degrees would be good but I don't know how that would work in the attic. I really don't want to pay someone to mount it on the roof.


BTW attic is pretty thin because its a newer house but there is a radiant barrier.


----------



## jspENC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Davinleeds* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I get 60mile plus channels from the backside of my 4228. But in direction of hills, only the 91xg will zero in. I can leave the 4228 in one position and get 95% of my channels. Site specific requires use of both. Over the hills, the 4228 drops out every 20 seconds but the 91xg will give me a 60 to 90% reception. Sometimes you need both to tame the multipath beast.



Is this with the screens on or off? I have stations coming from all directions, but the ones I'm mainly interested in come from the S. southwest, 60 miles and the north

at 25 miles and 41 miles. One of those at 41 miles is VHF on channel 10. One person

in my market gets the VHF at over 90% with the 4228. So if I was to get this antenna, would I be able to point it southward and still receive the stations to the north with it reliably? Right now I have two antennas joined together pointing in

these directions, but am missing one NBC channel to the south at 55 miles.


Thanks for the advice.


----------



## Davinleeds

Screens on. Use CM pre amp 7777. Alot depends on topography and if you're joining antenna, be sure to do it correctly, as it's a science. A good rotor is handy.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jspENC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is this with the screens on or off? I have stations coming from all directions, but the ones I'm mainly interested in come from the S. southwest, 60 miles and the north
> 
> at 25 miles and 41 miles. One of those at 41 miles is VHF on channel 10. One person
> 
> in my market gets the VHF at over 90% with the 4228. So if I was to get this antenna, would I be able to point it southward and still receive the stations to the north with it reliably? Right now I have two antennas joined together pointing in
> 
> these directions, but am missing one NBC channel to the south at 55 miles.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice.



Have you considered the use of an additional antenna and a channel 44 Jointenna for WECT-DT?


----------



## jspENC

I join two antennas now with a splitter in reverse and get all Wilmington channels strong with the exception of WECT. It works in the evenings and mornings occasionally. All other channels (both WIlmington and Greenville) come in perfectly the way I have it set up now. I use a CM pre- amp after the splitter. I was thinking the 4228 might be enough to get WECT also- I just

don't want to lose the others, and would like to use just one antenna if possible.


----------



## chas4430

Wis Dells Need Staitions About 60 Miles Away, Have A 40 Ft Tower With Rotor And An 1985 Antenna. Out In The Woods I Think The Trees Are The Problem. Do I Need A New Antenna And A Amplifier? What Are My Options And About How Much Should I Spend???


----------



## mhoover

Hello. Need some advice on antenna selection, if pre-amp will be needed, and if my distance is too far to even attempt an attic install. Here are the specs from antennaweb:


blue - uhf KTBO 14 TBN OKLAHOMA CITY OK 292° 36.9 14

blue - uhf KOCM 46 IND NORMAN OK 294° 37.9 46

blue - uhf KOKH 25 FOX OKLAHOMA CITY OK 289° 36.4 25

blue - vhf KFOR 4 NBC OKLAHOMA CITY OK 291° 37.0 4

* blue - uhf KFOR-DT 4.1 NBC OKLAHOMA CITY OK 294° 37.9 27

blue - vhf KETA 13 PBS OKLAHOMA CITY OK 289° 36.8 13

* blue - uhf KETA-DT 13.1 PBS OKLAHOMA CITY OK 294° 37.9 32

blue - uhf KTUZ 30 TEL SHAWNEE OK 256° 25.0 30

blue - uhf KAUT 43 MNT OKLAHOMA CITY OK 293° 37.4 43

blue - uhf KSBI 52 IND OKLAHOMA CITY OK 271° 33.4 52

blue - uhf KOCB 34 CW OKLAHOMA CITY OK 289° 36.4 34

* blue - uhf KOCB-DT 34.1 CW OKLAHOMA CITY OK 290° 36.5 33

blue - vhf KOCO 5 ABC OKLAHOMA CITY OK 290° 36.8 5

* blue - vhf KOCO-DT 5.1 ABC OKLAHOMA CITY OK 290° 36.8 7

* blue - uhf KOKH-DT 25.1 FOX OKLAHOMA CITY OK 289° 36.4 24


Distance between 33-38 miles on flat land, no obstructions. Compass orientation within 5 degrees to all but one independent channel which is 23 degrees off main stations. ABC is the only vhf station. Would like to not break the bank if possible but make sure I have enough antenna to do it right the first time (within reason). Thanks for the help.


----------



## afiggatt





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mhoover* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello. Need some advice on antenna selection, if pre-amp will be needed, and if my distance is too far to even attempt an attic install. Here are the specs from antennaweb:
> 
> Distance between 33-38 miles on flat land, no obstructions. Compass orientation within 5 degrees to all but one independent channel which is 23 degrees off main stations. ABC is the only vhf station. Would like to not break the bank if possible but make sure I have enough antenna to do it right the first time (within reason). Thanks for the help.



If you don't have obstructions in the attic such as metal ducts or metal liners, 33 to 38 miles should be doable for an attic antenna. I get stations at 43+ miles with a CM 4221 in my townhouse attic and I have local obstructions of the tops of other townhouses to contend with.


You have KOCO-DT broadcasting on VHF 7 with a confusing set of entries in the FCC database for it's power level (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KOCO and click on FCC database link). You will need to select an antenna which work for both UHF and upper VHF. The CM 4228 may work, but it rather large for an attic. With all the stations in the same direction, a more conventional VHF/UHF antenna is probably what you should look at. Antennas from Winegard and Channel Master for starters.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chas4430* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wis Dells Need Staitions About 60 Miles Away, Have A 40 Ft Tower With Rotor And An 1985 Antenna. Out In The Woods I Think The Trees Are The Problem. Do I Need A New Antenna And A Amplifier? What Are My Options And About How Much Should I Spend???



If you provide your zip code and some details on the current antenna - model, VHF, UHF? - we can respond with some more helpful suggestions. If the 1985 antenna has a UHF antenna and is in good condition, maybe you should try it to see what digital stations you can get with it if you have a TV or STB with a ATSC tuner.


----------



## puddnhead

Hi, just got my first HDTV set yesterday & am trying to upgrade my surrounding setup. One of the first things I'm tackling is a new antenna system, and would appreciate any advice. Because we don't get cable or dish, I'd be relying on it for all our viewing except DVD, so I am willing to do what it takes, within what I am able due to my circumstances (see below).


One of the things I'm trying to find is some kind of comprehensive comparison review of HDTV antennas. I've googled & looked through a few of the 107+ pages of this thread (!) but haven't found anything yet. Any pointers for that genral advice/info appreciated!


More specifically, I discovered antennaweb & inputed my location, & obtained it's recommendations; I have attached the map it generated to this post. A couple comments on this:

It got my location slightly wrong; I put the actual house location on as a red square if it matters
based upon this, I think I have an exceptionally clear horizon to the towers. I live just off a golf course, and the directions on the map go right through a large gap between two houses that immediately adjoin the course, then there are no other buildings for at least 600 yards.
My house is a 2 story and the roof/attic is higher than any trees along those lines between me and the other end of the golf course
However there is a water tower about 1600 yards away, along the general direction of the line to the towers. It is the only structure of any significantly greater height in those general directions for a couple miles at least.
The terrain in my part of the country is very flat.


As you can see on the map, I have two sets of towers I want to pull in, but all in a driection within six compass degrees, so I'm hoping whatever works for one works for all. Here is the tabular output from antennaweb recommendation to accompany map (I wish i could put it in an html table fot make it easier to read but don't see that I can in this forum software):


> Quote:
> DTV Antenna Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Compass Orientation Miles From Frequency Assignment
> 
> * yellow - uhf WBAY-DT 2.1 ABC GREEN BAY WI 49° 40.7 23
> 
> * yellow - uhf WFRV-DT 5.1 CBS GREEN BAY WI 55° 38.0 39
> 
> * green - uhf WIWB-DT 14.1 CW SURING WI 55° 38.0 21
> 
> * green - uhf WLUK-DT 11.1 FOX GREEN BAY WI 55° 38.0 51
> 
> * red - uhf WPNE-DT 38.1 PBS GREEN BAY WI 49° 40.7 42
> 
> * red - uhf WGBA-DT 26.1 NBC GREEN BAY WI 53° 39.1 41
> 
> * violet - uhf WACY-DT 32.1 MNT APPLETON WI 53° 39.1 59
> 
> _note: the violet/32.1 channel last on the list is one that I don't watch often & would not be that bothered if it did not come in perfectly_
> 
> Station list to accompany map:
> 
> 
> A: 2.1, 26.1, 32.1, 38.1
> 
> B: 5.1, 11.1, 14.1



First a request for confirmation/clarification: it surprises me that some channels are listed as uhf; I was under the impression that some would be vhf, according to channel number (2-13 vs 14+)? Does this mean I only need a uhf capable antenna, I don't need to worry about vhf reception???


Finally, my personal circumstances: This is a 2-story condo townhouse that we rent, so I may have some limitations regarding roof/eaves mount -- I can talk to landlord if necessary, but if it's possible to make this work with an indoor/attic setup that would be preferred. The room the set is in has a cathedral ceiling, all the way up to the roof (no attic in this part of buidling), so I think mounting to the ceiling of the room somehow (if the antenna is not too big/ugly) would be equivalent to an attic mount? This room is in the back of the place, i.e. facing the direction of the towers I want to pick up, the signal would only have to travel through the roof (no attic in htis part of the house).


So far from preliminary investigation I am wondering if the Philips MANT950 might work for my circumstances. There is an intruiging review at epinions that seems to match my circumstances, and it looks unobtrustive enought for a cathedral ceiling mount (thinking near the hightest point, so at second story ceiling, effectively). But then again, it's just an epinions review, nothing normalized. Here is the complete text (since as a new user, the forum software won't let me link to it):


> Quote:
> Digital channels with no recurring fees... from 40 miles away!
> 
> Dec 22 '06
> 
> 
> Author's Product Rating
> 
> Product Rating: 5.0
> 
> 
> Pros
> 
> Excellent reception, multiple mounting options, inconspicuous.
> 
> 
> Cons
> 
> Somewhat expensive and really directional
> 
> 
> The Bottom Line
> 
> If you can get over the air HD and need a medium range antenna, you can't go wrong with the MANT950.
> 
> 
> Full Review
> 
> I bought the Philips MANT950 as part of my maiden voyage into the world of home theater. I didn't want to pay the extra $20 per month that it cost to get HD programming from Dish Network just to watch CSI in high definition. I bought the MANT950 at Circuit City because they'd let me bring it back if I couldn't receive any channels. I didn't have high hopes because according to antennaweb I live 36 - 40 miles from the HD sources in my area.
> 
> 
> First Impressions
> 
> Well at first I thought I was going to have to assemble the MANT950, but Philips has cleverly designed the antenna so that the two "arms" fold down effectively cutting the length in half for transportation. I opened the box and unfolded the arms and viola, the antenna is ready to connect to your TV or receiver. There is a well written manual that details how to get the best reception along with the hardware that you'd need to mount the antenna to the side of the house or a pole. For ease of assembly, it doesn't get any better than this.
> 
> 
> Aesthetically, the MANT950 isn't gaudy looking, it's designed to be inconspicuously mounted under the eaves. It comes in an unobtrusive gray finish that would match a DSS satellite dish well and it can be painted to match the house to camouflage it even more.
> 
> 
> Mounting
> 
> The Philips MANT950 is a medium sized, directional HDTV antenna. That means that it must be aimed at the digital source for the best reception. When I got my TV, I connected the antenna with it in the living room and didn't get any digital channels, but I was receiving analog pretty well.
> 
> 
> I didn't really want to put the antenna outside, because of the direction I'd have to point it, eave mounting was out of the question and I didn't want to mount it on a pole. I mounted my MANT950 in my attic. Note, that this isn't ideal as it cuts down on your reception. I figured that if I didn't get anything I'd try it outside, but to my surprise I was able to dial the antenna in so that I receive all the digital broadcast in my area except one. That one being a few miles east of the rest so since it isn't CBS I don't care.
> 
> 
> I mounted the MANT950 as high as I could to the rafters in my attic. I had to rig a bracket to get it at the correct angle for the best reception, but the mounting process was relatively painless. It would have been very easy if I'd had someone watching the digital signal strength while I moved the antenna.
> 
> 
> You'll need somewhere to plug in the power for the antenna. It's provided via a small power supply that connects to the coaxial cable from the antenna, I had a receptacle in the attic so no big deal for me.
> 
> 
> Reception
> 
> Like I said earlier, I live a long way from the broadcast sources, add to that the fact that the antenna is inside my attic and you have a recipe for failure. I'm pleased to report that I have well over 60% signal on every channel and over 80% on a couple (CBS is the one I dialed in on). My TV displays crystal clear picture as long as the signal strength stays above 30%. Only ABC doesn't display, and that's because it's 30 miles east of the others and thus I'd have to turn my antenna to get it. It is the closest of the bunch and if I turn the antenna in that direction I get an 88% signal.
> 
> 
> Signal strength remains constant in all weather. Even in heavy rain I've maintained excellent reception.
> 
> 
> Durability
> 
> I haven't had it long enough to comment, but the only part that could fail is the amplifier. I don't think I'll have to worry about durability with the antenna protected from the elements. It looks like water could probably get into the case, but the internals could be sealed for all I know. The plastic casing will probably fade in the sun, but that's speculation.
> 
> 
> The Verdict
> 
> Antennas either work or they don't right? The Philips MANT950 works. Even though I live a long way off in some hilly terrain I'm able to get High Definition programming for what 5 months would have cost me from Dish Network.
> 
> 
> If antennaweb.orgsays you need a "medium amplified directional antenna", give the MANT950 a shot, you'll be glad you did.
> 
> 
> Recommended:
> 
> Yes



Any advice or comments on my thinking would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## mhoover




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you don't have obstructions in the attic such as metal ducts or metal liners, 33 to 38 miles should be doable for an attic antenna. I get stations at 43+ miles with a CM 4221 in my townhouse attic and I have local obstructions of the tops of other townhouses to contend with.
> 
> 
> You have KOCO-DT broadcasting on VHF 7 with a confusing set of entries in the FCC database for it's power level (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KOCO and click on FCC database link). You will need to select an antenna which work for both UHF and upper VHF. The CM 4228 may work, but it rather large for an attic. With all the stations in the same direction, a more conventional VHF/UHF antenna is probably what you should look at. Antennas from Winegard and Channel Master for starters.



Thanks for the reply. AntennaWeb says I need a medium directional with pre-amp. What is the difference and pro's/con's of getting an amped medium directional vs. a large directional w/o a pre-amp. Or am I barking up the wrong tree? ABC KOCO-DT on vhf 7 broadcasts at a 100 kw and will be most likely my toughest challenge. Knowing this, does this change any antenna strategy or will it come down to trial by fire. Appreciate any help.


----------



## holl_ands

1. For Antenna Comparisons, see fol. avsforum thread re antennas,

rotators, preamps, etc. (which includes below highlights):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...96#post5711296 


2. Esp. be sure to click on the three "Heavy Metal" and ATech Fabrication

long distance on-air comparison tests:
http://www.atechfabrication.com/reception_solutions.htm .


3. Links to Bob Chase's on-air outdoor vs indoor comparisons for eight antennas,

incl. an attic placement investigation:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2post6245872 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...71#post5399471 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...32#post5410432 


4. Link to NEC computer simulation studies:
www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNA/comparing.html 


5. Kerry Cozad's antenna on-air test range results for a few selected antennas:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1126051755 


6. Attached is my updated spread sheet, summarizing/plotting manufacturer spec sheet info,

as well as some of Kerry Cozad's measurements....

 

DTV_Antennas_RevD-3875.zip 22.6435546875k . file


----------



## boylan13

I'm using a pretty inexpensive roof-mount Radio Shack UHF/VHF antenna to tune in both NTSC and ATSC channels. The tuner is a Sony DHG-HDD500 HD PVR.


I recently developed a problem where I'm not reliably tuning in the PBS digital channels in New York City (13.1, 13.2, 13.3) but the rest of the ATSC channels are coming in fine (NBC, CBS, ABC Fox, etc.). I understand that the PBS channels are lower power than the rest, but a roof antenna 1.5 miles from the transmitter on the ESB (direct line of sight) should be able to tune it in.


I have a standard 300ohm-75ohm transformer connected to the antenna, RG6 cable running down maybe 75 feet to a splitter (in the house) where I'm splitting the signal once (1-to-2). I find that if I disconnect one of the 300 ohm leads at the antenna, the signal improves (visible on analog channels), though not enough to lock into the PBS digital channels. Could this be caused by some kind of grounding problem on the antenna itself or the mast? Or is it more likely to be a cable or connector shield fault?


I initially had two feeds hooked up directly to the antenna, each running to different parts of the house, but recently disconnected the second feed to try to beef up the main feed. The frustrating thing is that the second feed which is now disconnected from the antenna entirely (just a dangling 75ohm-300 ohm transformer on the roof) is actually tuning in the PBS channels fine without an antenna but with a channel Master amplifier! I tried this with the other feed but it was not strong enough to pick up the PBS digital feed from the ATSC receiver in our living room.


Is it likely to be a problem with the antenna itself or the cabling? I have a section of the RG6 cable plastered right into the wall so I'm hoping it's not the cable. I'm tempted to just buy a better UHF-only antenna and see if this works better, but would appreciate any suggestions from the antenna gurus.


Thanks,


-Chris


----------



## Larry Kenney

It's most likely a multipath problem, Chris. Try turning your antenna a few degrees one way or the other. It can make the difference between great signal and no signal if multipath is part of the mix.


Good luck!


Larry


----------



## kenglish

Also, try an FM Trap on the antenna line. At that distance, there will likely be overload from any FM stations nearby. That can cause noise and distortion byproducts that mask the lower-powered signals.


----------



## cpcat

I've really been itching to do a quad of DAT 75's. I have a Lindsay 2 way combiner so called up Lindsay to order a 4 way model. Lindsay UHF/VHF combiners 


Guess what? They no longer manufacture them. Called fellow AVS'er MaxHD to see if he could help and although he didn't have a source for the 4WCU, he did have a couple Televes ref. 5006's on hand which are basically preamp/uhf combiners all in one. Televes ref. 5006 I figured maybe I could use them with a power passing splitter to do the quad. I ordered the DAT 75's from cpc with the usual 7:00 a.m phone call due to the time difference.










Guess what? The DAT75's now have redesigned larger reflectors (presumably for added gain in the lower uhf). Needless to say, I was a little dissappointed as I wanted 4 identical antennas. I decided to try anyway though. In the meantime, I called/emailed Lindsay again (acting more desperate this time) and an extremely helpful person there found a 4WCU for me







. Through all of this in the last month or so, I've been trying various combinations for this setup and thought I'd share my results here.


Equipment:

4 semi-identical Televes DAT 75's

Research Comm. 9253 HDTV LNA with ps

Televes ref. 5006 x2 with ps x2

Lindsay 2WCU and 4WCU uhf combiners

Lindsay LS2A vhf combiner

power passing wide band uhf splitters of various brands


Initially, using the ref 5006's through a power-passing splitter didn't work very well. The performance overall was less than that of just a horizontal stack with the 2WCU combiner into the RC 9253 LNA. I suppose the phasing just wasn't perfect enough through the splitter. For novices out there, phasing is critical when combining antennas for added gain. The signals need to be identical as possible and in-phase which means everything needs to be symmetrical (i.e. equal signal paths and cable lengths) up to the point of combination.


Using the 2WCU as the power-passing splitter worked better. I'd say about equal in performance to the initial horizontal stack. Incidentally, this configuration isn't actually a quad stack. It's better termed a _stack-of-stacks_. No matter what the combination, it seemed that a _vertical stack of horizontal stacks_ outperformed a _horizontal stack of vertical stacks_. Not sure why that is but it wasn't even close.


Using regular resistive splitters, whether 3 dual or one 4-way didn't work at all for me. Others seem to have some success using these, but I can't say they work at all.


Next up, the true quad (actually an H-quad) using the 4WCU into both the ref 5006 (using only a single input) and the RC 9253. The ref 5006 held it's own BTW against the 9253. Not sure if I could tell any major differences. The quad, however, was overall somewhat dissappointing. I tried various stacking distances and it seemed 36 inches square worked the best. There were some channels for which it seemed to perform excellent, but others were poor. I think it may be that it's difficult to phase a true quad properly for a wide band setup and this would work better for narrow-band or single channel setups. I also couldn't really get the antennas much closer than 36 inches square (due to the megareflector on the new DAT75) so it may be that the phasing would have improved at closer distances. I did figure out a way to create an identical 4-antenna array BTW. The reflectors are interchangeable so I tried it with one large and one small on each antenna. It worked, but overall it seemed to worka little better in the pictured configuration below. Also, you'll notice I've added screening to the reflectors. This improves F/B ratio and helps me with co-channel interference I have between an analog and digital 34. Anyhow, that's a whole other story.


So, needless to say, at this point I was quite bummed with the quad stack performance. I then tried using the 2WCU and the 4WCU (used as a 2-way) to combine the stacks through the ref 5006. For some reason, this just wouldn't work. The 2WCU and 4WCU are exactly the same size/length and the only internal difference that I could see is that the 4WCU has 4 f-sockets soldered inside the end of the combiner while the 2WCU only has 2. Obviously, there must be more difference than that as they just wouldn't phase at all. Maybe someone who knows how stripline combiners work can answer this?


So, almost in desperation (again), I decided to try to use the 2WCU and the LS2A to combine each stack. The stacks were then combined through the ref 5006's dual uhf inputs. I compensated for the added length of the 2WCU by adding corresponding length to the cable coming off the LS2A (actually, I tried multiple lengths and settled on 13 inches as the best). Bingo! It worked. Performance now surpassed that of the original horizontal stack throughout the uhf band. It's difficult to quantify exactly, but I'd say my performance now is overall similar from channels 14-38 to my Triax Unix 100 Band A stack. This is excellent performance in this range for a wide-band uhf setup. For channels 39 and up, I'd say better by a small margin over the original DAT 75 stack.


Obviously, the next logical step would be to replace the LS2A with another 2WCU. However, I'm not sure when one will turn up and my WAF doing all this is currently on empty.

















I'll keep you posted.


Charles


----------



## cpcat

I've really been itching to do a quad of DAT 75's. I have a Lindsay 2 way combiner so called up Lindsay to order a 4 way model. Lindsay UHF/VHF combiners 


Guess what? They no longer manufacture them. Called fellow AVS'er MaxHD to see if he could help and although he didn't have a source for the 4WCU, he did have a couple Televes ref. 5006's on hand which are basically preamp/uhf combiners all in one. Televes ref. 5006 I figured maybe I could use them with a power passing splitter to do the quad. I ordered the DAT 75's from cpc with the usual 7:00 a.m phone call due to the time difference.










Guess what? The DAT75's now have redesigned larger reflectors (presumably for added gain in the lower uhf). Needless to say, I was a little dissappointed as I wanted 4 identical antennas. I decided to try anyway though. In the meantime, I called/emailed Lindsay again (acting more desperate this time) and an extremely helpful person there found a 4WCU for me







. Through all of this in the last month or so, I've been trying various combinations for this setup and thought I'd share my results here.


Equipment:

4 semi-identical Televes DAT 75's

Research Comm. 9253 HDTV LNA with ps

Televes ref. 5006 x2 with ps x2

Lindsay 2WCU and 4WCU uhf combiners

Lindsay LS2A vhf combiner

power passing wide band uhf splitters of various brands


Initially, using the ref 5006's through a power-passing splitter didn't work very well. The performance overall was less than that of just a horizontal stack with the 2WCU combiner into the RC 9253 LNA. I suppose the phasing just wasn't perfect enough through the splitter. For novices out there, phasing is critical when combining antennas for added gain. The signals need to be identical as possible and in-phase which means everything needs to be symmetrical (i.e. equal signal paths and cable lengths) up to the point of combination.


Using the 2WCU as the power-passing splitter worked better. I'd say about equal in performance to the initial horizontal stack. Incidentally, this configuration isn't actually a quad stack. It's better termed a _stack-of-stacks_. No matter what the combination, it seemed that a _vertical stack of horizontal stacks_ outperformed a _horizontal stack of vertical stacks_. Not sure why that is but it wasn't even close.


Using regular resistive splitters, whether 3 dual or one 4-way didn't work at all for me. Others seem to have some success using these, but I can't say they work at all.


Next up, the true quad (actually an H-quad) using the 4WCU into both the ref 5006 (using only a single input) and the RC 9253. The ref 5006 held it's own BTW against the 9253. Not sure if I could tell any major differences. The quad, however, was overall somewhat dissappointing. I tried various stacking distances and it seemed 36 inches square worked the best. There were some channels for which it seemed to perform excellent, but others were poor. I think it may be that it's difficult to phase a true quad properly for a wide band setup and this would work better for narrow-band or single channel setups. I also couldn't really get the antennas much closer than 36 inches square (due to the megareflector on the new DAT75) so it may be that the phasing would have improved at closer distances. I did figure out a way to create an identical 4-antenna array BTW. The reflectors are interchangeable so I tried it with one large and one small on each antenna. It worked, but overall it seemed to worka little better in the pictured configuration below. Also, you'll notice I've added screening to the reflectors. This improves F/B ratio and helps me with co-channel interference I have between an analog and digital 34. Anyhow, that's a whole other story.


So, needless to say, at this point I was quite bummed with the quad stack performance. I then tried using the 2WCU and the 4WCU (used as a 2-way) to combine the stacks through the ref 5006. For some reason, this just wouldn't work. The 2WCU and 4WCU are exactly the same size/length and the only internal difference that I could see is that the 4WCU has 4 f-sockets soldered inside the end of the combiner while the 2WCU only has 2. Obviously, there must be more difference than that as they just wouldn't phase at all. Maybe someone who knows how stripline combiners work can answer this?


So, almost in desperation (again), I decided to try to use the 2WCU and the LS2A to combine each stack. The stacks were then combined through the ref 5006's dual uhf inputs. I compensated for the added length of the 2WCU by adding corresponding length to the cable coming off the LS2A (actually, I tried multiple lengths and settled on 13 inches as the best). Bingo! It worked. Performance now surpassed that of the original horizontal stack throughout the uhf band. It's difficult to quantify exactly, but I'd say my performance now is overall similar from channels 14-38 to my Triax Unix 100 Band A stack. This is excellent performance in this range for a wide-band uhf setup. For channels 39 and up, I'd say better by a small margin over the original DAT 75 stack.


Obviously, the next logical step would be to replace the LS2A with another 2WCU. However, I'm not sure when one will turn up and my WAF doing all this is currently on empty.

















I'll keep you posted.


Charles


----------



## pyedog




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 6. Attached is my updated spread sheet, summarizing/plotting manufacturer spec sheet info,
> 
> as well as some of Kerry Cozad's measurements....



Thanks for providing this!


I have limited space in my attic for a 3rd UHF only antenna that I'm trying to use to pick up a single station. My goal is to mount it above my 4228 pointing in the opposite direction - thus It can't be very tall or long.


From looking at your chart I have a couple questions:


1) The DB8 is listed at 14.0 dBd while the CM 4228 is at 11.9 - I have a hard time beliving there is that much difference between two VERY similar antennas - do 4 separate reflectors really help?


2) The Blonder Tongue BTY-UHF-BB would seem to be the pick for a compact UHF antenna at 10.2 dBd and only 24" - but is it really this good? Obviously the price is beyond reason, but I can't imagine why other manufacturers wouldn't build a similar antenna if they can get this much gain from this small of a size - there are many far larger antennas with less gain.


Right now the 43XG would seem to be the best for the size (at 39" it is as large as I can fit) - but I'm a bit dubious about the numbers given the abnormally high DB8 numbers.


Any other suggestions for a compact UHF attic antenna?


Thanks!


----------



## AntAltMike

The gain of the Blonder Tongue UHF BB is unremarkable. Blonder Tongue reference its gain figures to "isotropic" rather than to "tuned dipole", so you would have to subtract 2.2 from it to compare it to most other publiched gain specs. You can buy something for $30 that is a foot or two longer with the same gain.


I have installed over half a dozen of them. They are designed for durability rather than for extraordinary performance. You would be wasting your money using one in an attic unless you are incredibly cramped. I only use them on highrise buildings


The likelihood of a dB of improvement in published gain figures will discernibly improve your reception is slim, at best.


----------



## ctdish

cpcat,

I use four CM 4248 stacked 2 0ver 2 with about 40 inch spacing. They are connected to a Lindsa 4WCU and Research Comm preamp. The preamp provided a noticable improvement over the AP 4700 it replaced. I measured the loss of a few of the small 2 and 4 port splitter/combiners by going through two so I had a single port at each end. This showed about a 5dB loss indicating a 2.5 dB loss for each one.

Hopefully you used four exactly equal lengths of cable to connect the antennas to the combiner.

With the pairs of mismatched antennas you might try putting similar antennas above each other. The phase mismatch will show up as a response peak slightly off the center of the expected pointing direction. If it is not too large reaiming the rotator will find the peak with little loss of total gain.

John



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've really been itching to do a quad of DAT 75's. I have a Lindsay 2 way combiner so called up Lindsay to order a 4 way model. Lindsay UHF/VHF combiners
> 
> 
> 
> Guess what? The DAT75's now have redesigned larger reflectors (presumably for added gain in the lower uhf).
> 
> Equipment:
> 
> 4 semi-identical Televes DAT 75's
> 
> Research Comm. 9253 HDTV LNA with ps
> 
> Televes ref. 5006 x2 with ps x2
> 
> Lindsay 2WCU and 4WCU uhf combiners
> 
> Lindsay LS2A vhf combiner
> 
> power passing wide band uhf splitters of various brands
> 
> 
> Initially, using the ref 5006's through a power-passing splitter didn't work very well. The performance overall was less than that of just a horizontal stack with the 2WCU combiner into the RC 9253 LNA. I suppose the phasing just wasn't perfect enough through the splitter.
> 
> Using regular resistive splitters, whether 3 dual or one 4-way didn't work at all for me. Others seem to have some success using these, but I can't say they work at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Charles


----------



## Rick0725

what did you use for screen and how did you attach it.


with the 91xg would you cover the entire screen or partial as you did?


please explain.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> cpcat,
> 
> I use four CM 4248 stacked 2 0ver 2 with about 40 inch spacing. They are connected to a Lindsa 4WCU and Research Comm preamp. The preamp provided a noticable improvement over the AP 4700 it replaced. I measured the loss of a few of the small 2 and 4 port splitter/combiners by going through two so I had a single port at each end. This showed about a 5dB loss indicating a 2.5 dB loss for each one.
> 
> Hopefully you used four exactly equal lengths of cable to connect the antennas to the combiner.
> 
> With the pairs of mismatched antennas you might try putting similar antennas above each other. The phase mismatch will show up as a response peak slightly off the center of the expected pointing direction. If it is not too large reaiming the rotator will find the peak with little loss of total gain.
> 
> John



I did make them all identical by interchanging the reflectors i.e. each antenna had a small and a large reflector. In fact, this is how I did the majority of the testing with the H-quad. The phase seemed correct on some channels but not on others and this seemed to vary among channels with spacing. It's possible I suppose that I have a defective 4WCU.


I'd be interested in how your performance would compare if you did a stack of stacks instead of a quad.


The Research Comm. 9253, 9252, as well as the Televes ref. 5006 and Sitco PA24 all outperform the CM 7777 for uhf in my experience. I've not used the Winegard AP 4700 so can't comment on that one.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> what did you use for screen and how did you attach it.
> 
> 
> with the 91xg would you cover the entire screen or partial as you did?
> 
> 
> please explain.



1/2 inch chicken wire (available at Lowe's) fixed with plastic wire ties to each top and bottom reflector.


I covered the entire back except for the top and bottom most space of the earlier vintage DAT 75 with the small reflector and the same area of the larger one to cut down some on wind load.


The XG's reflector is even a little smaller than the earlier DAT75's so I'd probably just cover it entirely. OTOH, the XG's is already a mesh-type so it may not help as much.


----------



## herdfan

What is the purpose of the wire cage material on one side of CM 4221/4228 and DB2/4/8 antennas?


What happens if I remove it?


Thanks.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *herdfan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What is the purpose of the wire cage material on one side of CM 4221/4228 and DB2/4/8 antennas?
> 
> 
> What happens if I remove it?
> 
> 
> Thanks.



It's there to block signals coming from the back. If you remove it, the antenna will become more bidirectional. Usually this is a disadvantage unless you have a specific reason for allowing a signal in from the back.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *herdfan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What is the purpose of the wire cage material on one side of CM 4221/4228 and DB2/4/8 antennas?
> 
> 
> What happens if I remove it?
> 
> 
> Thanks.



Multipath is caused by signals being received by the antenna from different directions--and hence with different arrival times.

Digital receivers have a very limited tolerance to multipath, esp. when the various signals are more or less the same signal strength.


Antennas maximize gain in the desired direction by minimizing gain in undesired directions.

The reflector screen attenuates the usually strongest multipath signal, which occurs when the signal reflects

back off of buildings and hills slightly further along the signal path than your antenna.


Think of a flashlight reflecting off of an all-glass high-rise into the "back' of your antenna....

vice glancing reflections from buildings and hills off to the side of the direct signal path....


If you have signals coming from opposite directions, taking the screen off can help to receive signals

on the former "back" of the antenna....although with a lower (-3 dB) gain towards the "front"....


This will also receive a lot more multipath...which may or may not be tolerable, depending on topography, geometry, et. al......

So, as usual, it's pretty much trial and error...


----------



## eberniard




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yeah, I wasn't picturing them accurately in my head. The reflector on the Zenith is smaller.
> 
> 
> I think a couple of guys on our local thread tried it and didn't have too much luck with it. But I suppose it's pretty similar in performance. I can say that I often get stations over 60 miles away with my U75R, though.



Just to follow up on this again, I did buy the GEMDTV-1 and tried it out though I eventually returned it. In my side by side informal comparison I found that the GEMDTV was comparable to the silver sensor and the U75R was superior to both. The size of the GEMDTV was compact enough to mount in the drop ceiling, but the multipath was significant enough to compromise performance. In the end I went with the U75R in the attic which is perfect (until 2009 anyway when I will need VHF).


Thanks for the comments.


----------



## herdfan

Thanks for the explanation. My dad lives at about 120 degrees between tower farms, so I have tried tweaking his antenna to receive both signal with mediocre sucess.


However, for the bowl games, I had to go on the roof and peak for CBS for the Gator and then go back up to peak for the Rose and the rest of the BCS games. He will watch Saturday's NBC games in SD.


So my options are a joiner, which will be hard given how the channels are, just combining 2 antennas and seeing what happens or removing all or part of the screen on his DB4.


----------



## puddnhead

Thanks for the help holl_ands. I happened to be at a local Menards looking for something else when I saw their antenna selection & that they carried the Philips MANT950 antenna for $80, so I figured I'd pickit up & see what it'd do. Almost as an afterthought I picked up the MANT510 indoor setup amplified antenna for $22 too, figured I'd just give it a shot, who knows, I could return it later.


I got the 950 ouit & just held it up inside, near the roof, & was happy to see that that it got all the channels in my list quite. But while I was at it I got out the MANT510 too and ... wow. All the channels I wanted came in quite clearly except one, just from this little indoor unit sitting on top of my entertainment center, without any real fiddling. Been using it a couple days with no complaints. As a reminder here is my antennaweb output again:



> Quote:
> DTV Antenna Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Compass Orientation Miles From Frequency Assignment
> 
> * yellow - uhf WBAY-DT 2.1 ABC GREEN BAY WI 49° 40.7 23
> 
> * yellow - uhf WFRV-DT 5.1 CBS GREEN BAY WI 55° 38.0 39
> 
> * green - uhf WIWB-DT 14.1 CW SURING WI 55° 38.0 21
> 
> * green - uhf WLUK-DT 11.1 FOX GREEN BAY WI 55° 38.0 51
> 
> * red - uhf WPNE-DT 38.1 PBS GREEN BAY WI 49° 40.7 42
> 
> * red - uhf WGBA-DT 26.1 NBC GREEN BAY WI 53° 39.1 41
> 
> * violet - uhf WACY-DT 32.1 MNT APPLETON WI 53° 39.1 59
> 
> 
> Station list to accompany map:
> 
> 
> A: 2.1, 26.1, 32.1, 38.1
> 
> B: 5.1, 11.1, 14.1



Odd that I got 32.1 (violet) quite strongly, but I could only get 14.1 (green) intermittently & only with careful alignment of MANT950 (not at all with MANT510). All the rest were good reception with either. I don't care much about the 14.1 CW channel, so I'm planning to go the way of simplicity and low cost & keep the MANT510


----------



## mga56grg

I have a cable line (which broadcasts 20 or so unscrambled channels, which i don't pay for) leading upto my apartment and an HD antenna. unfortunately i have brick walls and can only run the existing coax through the wall. I tried to mix the lines together with a combiner/mixer (from radio shack). this didn't work for i thought it would (i only recieve the cable broadcast and the HD signal says no/weak). when i unplug the cable line from the combiner (and run it just with the HD antanna in) the HD signal to the TV is fine. this suggests to me that the cable line is overpowering the antenna line. is this right?

any suggestions? do i actually have to have two lines coming into the house?

Thank you


----------



## texasbrit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mga56grg* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a cable line (which broadcasts 20 or so unscrambled channels, which i don't pay for) leading upto my apartment and an HD antenna. unfortunately i have brick walls and can only run the existing coax through the wall. I tried to mix the lines together with a combiner/mixer (from radio shack). this didn't work for i thought it would (i only recieve the cable broadcast and the HD signal says no/weak). when i unplug the cable line from the combiner (and run it just with the HD antanna in) the HD signal to the TV is fine. this suggests to me that the cable line is overpowering the antenna line. is this right?
> 
> any suggestions? do i actually have to have two lines coming into the house?
> 
> Thank you



Cable and antenna signals are in the same frequency band so there is no way to combine them. You need separate cables for each of them.


----------



## shoptangerine

Hello all, first post here...


I live in Murrieta california, it is like 65 miles from the Los Angeles signals being shot of Mt Wilson. According to antennaweb, I do not see any DT channels for my address-well there is one in san bernadino, pbsdt.


I put a channelmaster 4228 on roof just to try before I went and bought a preamp, mast, etc....all I get is snowy old school channels and that one pbsDT channel. My house is right behind a slope, and above that guy is another slope, then 3 miles away is a little mountain range.


I have heard of a couple people getting signal in my town, but I think my area might be the worst? Is there any hope to get OTA HD here? or do I have to get it through my directv (barf)


Thanks in advance


Craig in Murrieta


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shoptangerine* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live in Murrieta california, it is like 65 miles from the Los Angeles signals being shot of Mt Wilson. According to antennaweb, I do not see any DT channels for my address-well there is one in san bernadino, pbsdt.
> 
> 
> I put a channelmaster 4228 on roof just to try before I went and bought a preamp, mast, etc....all I get is snowy old school channels and that one pbsDT channel. My house is right behind a slope, and above that guy is another slope, then 3 miles away is a little mountain range.



First go to antennaweb.org and at the address page, click on the options link and enter an antenna height of 200 or 300 feet or even higher; then select digital stations only. You may not get all those digital stations & the color codes are not that meaningful (not that they are all that accurate to begin with), but this should give you a list of where and what directions the digital stations are.


If you have a slope behind the house, tilt the center aim of the CM 4428 upwards towards the ridge line if you can. The CM 4228 is rather directional and that may pick up the signals refracting across the top of the hill. Also raise or lower the antenna or just move the antenna a few feet if you can, just in case you put it at a local dead spot. Try these steps before getting a pre-amp, although a pre-amp is not likely to make that much difference if you can't get the digital towers on the top of Mt. Wilson at all.


Also, what ATSC tuner are you using? Some tuners are better than others at locking on to marginal signals.


----------



## shoptangerine




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> First go to antennaweb and at the address page, click on the options link and enter an antenna height of 200 or 300 feet or even higher; then select digital stations only. You may not get all those digital stations & the color codes are not that meaningful (not that they are all that accurate to begin with), but this should give you a list of where and what directions the digital stations are.
> 
> 
> If you have a slope behind the house, tilt the center aim of the CM 4428 upwards towards the ridge line if you can. The CM 4228 is rather directional and that may pick up the signals refracting across the top of the hill. Also raise or lower the antenna or just move the antenna a few feet if you can, just in case you put it at a local dead spot. Try these steps before getting a pre-amp, although a pre-amp is not likely to make that much difference if you can't get the digital towers on the top of Mt. Wilson at all.
> 
> 
> Also, what ATSC tuner are you using? Some tuners are better than others at locking on to marginal signals.



I had to goto 200' in the air till I got one network, CBS, 300' finally got me all the networks, ktladt, fox, etc....


Looks like I am screwed for OTA eh? as I am not putting a 300' mast up









Thanks


----------



## holl_ands

Quote:

Originally Posted by *pyedog*
Thanks for providing this!


I have limited space in my attic for a 3rd UHF only antenna that I'm trying to use to pick up a single station. My goal is to mount it above my 4228 pointing in the opposite direction - thus It can't be very tall or long.


From looking at your chart I have a couple questions:


1) The DB8 is listed at 14.0 dBd while the CM 4228 is at 11.9 - I have a hard time beliving there is that much difference between two VERY similar antennas - do 4 separate reflectors really help?


2) The Blonder Tongue BTY-UHF-BB would seem to be the pick for a compact UHF antenna at 10.2 dBd and only 24" - but is it really this good? Obviously the price is beyond reason, but I can't imagine why other manufacturers wouldn't build a similar antenna if they can get this much gain from this small of a size - there are many far larger antennas with less gain.


Right now the 43XG would seem to be the best for the size (at 39" it is as large as I can fit) - but I'm a bit dubious about the numbers given the abnormally high DB8 numbers.


Any other suggestions for a compact UHF attic antenna?


Thanks!
Although the DB-8, CM4228 and WG PR8800 appear to be very similar 8-Bay antennas,

the feed structures and reflector screens are electrically quite different.


It is frequently difficult to determine whether a manufacturer is specifying "typical" or "minimum" specs,

i.e. whether it's an average/median value or a guaranteed for 90+ percent of shipped units.

Or perhaps was only measured on the carefully tweaked prototype model....

And sometimes it's difficult to determine whether they used dBd (relative to a dipole)

or the 2.15 dB "inflated" dBi (relative to isotropic) gain measurement units.


CM and Winegard provide very detailed spec sheets with gain, beamwidth and Front/Back Ratio for several UHF channels.


However, Antennas Direct simply claims "15.8 dB gain" for the DB-8, where it is unclear whether this is

in dBd or dBi (2.15 dB higher) units....and whether this is an AVERAGE across the UHF band or (much more likely),

the MAXIMUM gain for the BEST channel....

I determined the "14.0 dB" value for average UHF gain, by converting

15.8 dbi to 13.6 dBd and gave then the benefit of the doubt by simply rounding up to guessitimate the average UHF gain....

I would guess that this is actually MAX vice AVERAGE, so it's probably still overinflated by 2-3 dB...


===================================

I rechecked the "Data UHF NEC + Measured" spread sheet page which contains NEC Simulations results for average UHF gain.

The NEC Sim data points have been updated and provided via downloadable "ants.xls" file since I "eyeballed" data off the charts.

My "eyeballed" CH14 gain numbers were off by quite a bit (too small) with only minor tweaks for other channels.

Updated averages are below.


CM4228, 14.6 dBd measured, 11.3 dBd NEC Sim vs 11.9 dBd "spec"

PR8800, 13.2 dBd measured, 10.0 dBd NEC Sim vs 11.6 dBd "spec"

AD DB-8, unk dBd measured, 11.9 dBd NEC Sim vs 15.8 dB? "spec"

Surely, you can you see which "spec" claim doesn't fit....


Also, if you check www.hdtvprimer/ANTENNAS/comparing.html ,

you'll see that the author did not include the (presumably 1-2 dB) loss

in the DB-8's combiner in the NEC model.....


So all of the 8-Bay antennas are "close", with the edge given to the CM4228....

Kerry Cozad measured 1.4 dB MORE average gain across the UHF band for the CM4228 than the PR8800....

which is consistent with NEC Sim.

And actual on-the-air test results generally show that all three 8-Bay antennas are very good,

with the CM4228 having a reportedly small performance (and price) advantage....


BTW: Due to receiving both the direct path and the "ground bounce" signal, Kerry Cozad's model range test data can be

2-3 dB higher than "isotropic", i.e. "free space" gain cited in NEC simulation results and (presumably) also spec sheets.


========================================

Fortunately, Antennas Direct isn't the only source of data on the 43XG:
http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSea...sp?SKU=AP00815 
http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSea...cpc/253268.xml 

Probably dBi units (subtract 2.15 to find dBd).

http://www.ceda-antenna.com/index.htm 
http://www.funke.nl/ 

Hmmm, CEDA website seems to be down and Funke is rebuilding theirs...

Guess I'll just attach the data sheet.....

Based on comparison to "simple" antennas, I've determined that Funke uses the inflated dBi units rather than dBd.

And, as is usual with non-U.S. antenna manufacturers, you have to be careful to read the frequencies (in MHz)

and might have to convert their channel numbers into U.S. channel numbers.

 

NL - Funke 43el Bowtie Reflector - 220_140302_dcf4543_230505_790501400.pdf 169.6572265625k . file


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shoptangerine* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I had to goto 200' in the air till I got one network, CBS, 300' finally got me all the networks, ktladt, fox, etc....
> 
> 
> Looks like I am screwed for OTA eh? as I am not putting a 300' mast up
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks



Don't use the antenna height at avsforum as gospel. I have to enter 150' at antennaweb for my address to get a list of digital stations that is close to what I get with a CM 4221 in my attic.


But if you have hills blocking the line of sight, that is a problem. Before you give up, try out different aims & locations for the antenna such as I suggested. If there is a high rise building behind you, you could even aim the antenna at the building to see if you might be able to pick up reflected signals off of the building.


----------



## jhb50

I am 95 miles from the LA towers but in a direct line through a mountain pass between 2 10,000 foot peaks. On that same line is a strong DT station 20 miles away.


I also have 3 local stations at 90 degrees, that I get with a Radio Shack HDTV Antenna (Shaped like a DBS dish) which claims 6dB gain and has a 10dB preamp that I will connect with an A-B switch or reverse splitter which ever works..


I had assumed and been advised for the LA stations to get either the 4228 or XG91 along with the 269 12dB Urban Preamp rather than the 7777 because of the 20 mile station and mount the whole thing on the roof.


Over New Years, in order to get the bowl games and Rose Parade on KTLA, I took the RS antenna and stuck it on my deck at floor level behind glass doors pointed at LA, and too my surprise, I get all the LA channels at 65-75% on my sets Signal Strength bar but I do have to shift the antenna sideways 1-2 feet to get the signal on some of them. I tried moving the antenna to other locations on and well off the deck and the roof overhead but never got as good a signal.


Does it make sense that I just happen to have a 4 foot hot spot just at the front side of my house, 4 feet from the ground, and just at the front of a deck which is covered with a 12'x16' aluminum awning? Everything I have read says this should not be. It does have a clear line across a golf course and open desert though with no houses or trees in the way.


So now I am thinking of using a 4228 or its half sized version and standing it just outside the fixed glass door, with the hope that its larger span will gather all the hot spot signals and eliminate the need to shift the antenna 2-3 feet. Assuming a 12 dB gain and a 12 dB amp and 4 db loss for 50' of RG6, that's 20 dB rather than the 10-12 I have now.


Based on this I'm now thinking of dropping the on the roof approach. What would you do if you were me?


----------



## mga56grg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasbrit* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Cable and antenna signals are in the same frequency band so there is no way to combine them. You need separate cables for each of them.



thanks - Do you think it would work if i split the line once inside my apartment, and ran one into the cable input and another into the antenna input? or am i completely out of luck?


----------



## texasbrit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mga56grg* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> thanks - Do you think it would work if i split the line once inside my apartment, and ran one into the cable input and another into the antenna input? or am i completely out of luck?



No, you have to carry the antenna and the cable signals on separate cables all the way.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *puddnhead* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> [Antennaweb] got my location slightly wrong; I put the actual house location on as a red square if it matters



You can re-center the map by clicking on the desired location. This also re-computes and updates your channel listings. It makes a noticeable difference for me because the default location for my address is a couple hundred yards away and down a slight hill from where my house is actually located.


----------



## swandog

Hi,

I have an antenna in my attic and there is a run of RG6 quad from it down to the basement which connects into a Channel Plus Model DA-8200HHR distribution unit...and from there I go to 4-5 locations in the house...will this type of setup affect a HD signal differently from analog? My current plan is to use this setup with HD...I am planning on adding a CM 4221 antenna in the attic and then using a CM 538 joiner to combine the two antenna's (the current antenna gets better VHF signals than UHF)..Does this sound reasonable or am I waisting my time...btw the wife will not allow an antenna outside...and I'm not getting rid of her







...


thanks

Doug


----------



## TVSaurus

I'm currently using a 25' mast for my 4228 do you think its possible to get a better signal if I go higher up on a 50' mast for the weak signals I'm receiving?


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *herdfan* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So my options are a joiner, which will be hard given how the channels are, just combining 2 antennas and seeing what happens or removing all or part of the screen on his DB4.



Or, of course, installing a rotator.










(it appears that you have an outdoor antenna)


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jhb50* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am 95 miles from the LA towers but in a direct line through a mountain pass between 2 10,000 foot peaks. On that same line is a strong DT station 20 miles away.
> 
> 
> I also have 3 local stations at 90 degrees, that I get with a Radio Shack HDTV Antenna (Shaped like a DBS dish) which claims 6dB gain and has a 10dB preamp that I will connect with an A-B switch or reverse splitter which ever works..
> 
> 
> I had assumed and been advised for the LA stations to get either the 4228 or XG91 along with the 269 12dB Urban Preamp rather than the 7777 because of the 20 mile station and mount the whole thing on the roof.
> 
> 
> Over New Years, in order to get the bowl games and Rose Parade on KTLA, I took the RS antenna and stuck it on my deck at floor level behind glass doors pointed at LA, and too my surprise, I get all the LA channels at 65-75% on my sets Signal Strength bar but I do have to shift the antenna sideways 1-2 feet to get the signal on some of them. I tried moving the antenna to other locations on and well off the deck and the roof overhead but never got as good a signal.
> 
> 
> Does it make sense that I just happen to have a 4 foot hot spot just at the front side of my house, 4 feet from the ground, and just at the front of a deck which is covered with a 12'x16' aluminum awning? Everything I have read says this should not be. It does have a clear line across a golf course and open desert though with no houses or trees in the way.
> 
> 
> So now I am thinking of using a 4228 or its half sized version and standing it just outside the fixed glass door, with the hope that its larger span will gather all the hot spot signals and eliminate the need to shift the antenna 2-3 feet. Assuming a 12 dB gain and a 12 dB amp and 4 db loss for 50' of RG6, that's 20 dB rather than the 10-12 I have now.
> 
> 
> Based on this I'm now thinking of dropping the on the roof approach. What would you do if you were me?



Primary response to your double post is found here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...33#post9241533 


Your house is probably blocking the nearby TV transmitters so that you have a better chance to receive distant LA stations.

Be sure to try it without the Preamp as well as with it.....


Can you post a brief list of which stations (analog or digital) you are able to receive so we can see

how many local stations are blocking reception from LA???


----------



## herdfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Or, of course, installing a rotator.



The proble with a rotator is that the antenna is hooked to a D* HR10 and it has no way to change the direction when it wants to record something.


----------



## StanMan76

I need help picking a new antenna. I am at zip code 54726. All my channels are within 40 miles except for 1 channel CBS which is about 60 miles away. Right now all my digital channels broadcast on UHF but come 2009 two channels are switching to VHF. I was considering the 4228 before the two channels are switching. I know the 4228 picks up VHF good but the 1 channel switching is the CBS channel that is going to be on 8.1. The other channel will be on 13.1 and I am sure I would be able to pick it up with that antenna. Will the 4228 pick up a VHF channel from 60 miles away? What other antennas would be a good choice?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jhb50* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Based on this I'm now thinking of dropping the on the roof approach. What would you do if you were me?



I think that you are on the right track. Antennas interact with the ground such that it is possible to gain up to 6 db if the ground slopes at the perfect angle and the antenna is placed at the optimum height.


A basic explaination is here: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html


----------



## Gamedev123

Picked up a DB2 a few days ago to replace my Terk Hdtvi. Although it seems to be giving me much better reception on all channels, I've lost my favorite HD channels (PBS). No matter what direction I point it in, I still can't get any PBS HDTV channels.


Thoughts?


Also, I'm in an apartment building and thinking about securing the antenna to the fire escape outside ... of course, in a totally non-obvious manner. ;-)


Any thoughts on this as well?


----------



## Bobbarry

I was going to post this in the Providence, RI thread but noticed this thread after writing what is below. I did not read all 180 pages but I have a rough idea of where I am headed. Zip code 02748.


My objective is to find an antenna to fit my situation and objectives. Some of the facts are as follows:


At most I can mount an antenna 45' above sea level. Fifty yards from my house to the North and North West are trees which exceed 45'.


I can mount the antenna outside. The cable length needed will be 75'. There is no electrical outlet near the antenna.


My house is located 29 miles from and at a bearing of 335 degrees to the transmitting cluster for Providence (NBC, FOX, CBS, PBS) and New Bedford (ABC). The frequencies for these stations are 51, 54, 13, 36 and 49 respectively.


My house is located 55 miles from and at a bearing of 359 degrees to the transmitting cluster for Boston (ABC, CBS, PBS). The frequencies for these stations are 20, 30 and 19 respectively.


I have used three store bot antennas with the following results:


1. UHF, 13" X 4", outside mount, multi-directional, 18 dB, at 45' above sea level receives ABC-49, CBS-13, PBS-36.


2. UHF, 6" X 6", outside mount, multi-directional, 35 dB, at 30' above sea level receives FOX-54, CBS-13.


3. UHF, 11 dB, inside mount, 13" directional, at 35' above sea level receives NBC-51, ABC-49.


Please note all antennas receive CW-22 (16 miles) and other non HDTV stations.




I would like to receive the Boston stations, in particular PBS but this may not be possible.


I know the antenna signal will have to be amplified and that the quality of my reception depends on the strength of the received signal not the amplification.


I believe the type of antenna I need is UHF based on the signal frequencies (not the station numbers).


I am thinking of using an multi-directional antenna. Perhaps a directional antenna (Yagi style) would be better if I wish to receive Boston stations. There is only 24 degrees between the Providence and Boston transmitters and as such a rotor may not be needed (?).


I was looking at the DB4 antenna on antennasdirect. Has anyone tried building their own antenna, I think there are a couple of oven racks I could use.


I would prefer to mount the antenna on the side of my house rather than the roof, which would preclude rotation of a long antenna. The side of my house where I would install the antenna points directly toward the Boston transmitters and I could angle it slightly away from the house to point at the Providence transmitters.


I have been using store bot antennas because they are easy to return to local merchants. Odds are I will end up ordering an antenna so I want to purchase the right one the first time.


Any thoughts you have concerning antenna type, placement strategy, amplifiers, where to buy would be appreciated.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *StanMan76* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I need help picking a new antenna. I am at zip code 54726. All my channels are within 40 miles except for 1 channel CBS which is about 60 miles away. Right now all my digital channels broadcast on UHF but come 2009 two channels are switching to VHF. I was considering the 4228 before the two channels are switching. I know the 4228 picks up VHF good but the 1 channel switching is the CBS channel that is going to be on 8.1. The other channel will be on 13.1 and I am sure I would be able to pick it up with that antenna. Will the 4228 pick up a VHF channel from 60 miles away? What other antennas would be a good choice?



The CM 4228 8 Bay has ok gain for upper VHF, but I suspect getting a VHF 8 station at 60 miles will be iffy. Depends on your terrain, surrounding trees, and what power the station - WKBT-DT CBS 8 correct? - will go to when they switch in 2009. Looking at your antennaweb results, you have stations scattered around in azimuth, so a rotator will be needed with the very directional 4228. My suggestion is that you get either the 4228 or 91XG, but put up a sturdy enough mount with enough extra space on the pole so you can add a upper VHF antenna in 2009 if it turns out that you need it. Winegard has several dedicated upper VHF 7 to 13 antennas which you can find on their website.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gamedev123* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Picked up a DB2 a few days ago to replace my Terk Hdtvi. Although it seems to be giving me much better reception on all channels, I've lost my favorite HD channels (PBS). No matter what direction I point it in, I still can't get any PBS HDTV channels.



What channel is the PBS station digitally broadcasting on? For us to be much help, we need your zip code or the PBS station call letters. Just not enough information here.


----------



## Jedi5

Hello everyone.

Long time lurker first time poster here.


Well, I've finally decided that I want to look into a HDTV antenna.

Problem is, I really don't know what I'm looking for.

I do know that if I can get away with it, I would prefer to buy an indoor antenna.

There are no buildings or towers in my immediate area.

The channels I am looking to watch are all about 35 miles away.


Right now I'm not sure if I need an antenna or antenna with an amplifier.


Can someone please tell me what other information they would need in order to help me out?


thanks to all


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jedi5* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I do know that if I can get away with it, I would prefer to buy an indoor antenna.
> 
> There are no buildings or towers in my immediate area.
> 
> The channels I am looking to watch are all about 35 miles away.
> 
> 
> Right now I'm not sure if I need an antenna or antenna with an amplifier.
> 
> 
> Can someone please tell me what other information they would need in order to help me out?



For starters, we could use your zip code and some information about whether you live in a house or condo/apartment, roof mount or attic mount possible, live on a hill or higher elevation. 35 miles is a challenge for an indoor antenna.


----------



## Jedi5

Sorry.


60087 zip code, Chicago area. Northern Chicago between IL and WI.

This is for a 2 story home where both attic and roof install are very possible.

The reason I was looking into an indoor antenna was for the less hassle.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jedi5* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry.
> 
> 
> 60087 zip code, Chicago area. Northern Chicago between IL and WI.
> 
> This is for a 2 story home where both attic and roof install are very possible.
> 
> The reason I was looking into an indoor antenna was for the less hassle.



I recommend that you go to the Chicago thread and learn the bad news about channel 2/3 over there.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I recommend that you go to the Chicago thread and learn the bad news about channel 2/3 over there.



Indoor antennas won't work well.


----------



## yardline

So my question on buying a dedicated UHF antenna like the Dat 75 is this: If in 2009 all HDTV stations have to give up their UHF bandwidth and switch back to the VHF 2-13 frequencies, what will that mean for my $200 investment?


Thanks for the help in trying to figure this out.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jedi5* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 60087 zip code, Chicago area. Northern Chicago between IL and WI.
> 
> This is for a 2 story home where both attic and roof install are very possible.
> 
> The reason I was looking into an indoor antenna was for the less hassle.



Plugging your zip and a antenna height of 200' into antennaweb, I get the following list of closer Chicago stations:


* yellow - uhf WTTW-DT 11.1 PBS CHICAGO IL 165° 38.1 47

* yellow - uhf WPWR-DT 50.1 MNT GARY IN 165° 38.1 51

* yellow - uhf WLS-DT 7.1 ABC CHICAGO IL 165° 38.1 52

* yellow - uhf WMAQ-DT 5.1 NBC CHICAGO IL 165° 38.1 29

* yellow - uhf WGN-DT 9.1 CW CHICAGO IL 165° 38.1 19

* yellow - uhf WSNS-DT 44.1 TEL CHICAGO IL 165° 38.1 45

* yellow - uhf WXFT-DT 60.1 TFA AURORA IL 165° 38.1 59

* yellow - uhf WFLD-DT 32.1 FOX CHICAGO IL 165° 38.1 31

* yellow - uhf WCIU-DT 26.1 IND CHICAGO IL 165° 38.1 27

* yellow - uhf WCPX-DT 38.1 i CHICAGO IL 165° 38.1 43

* green - vhf WBBM-DT 2.1 CBS CHICAGO IL 163° 37.0 3

* green - uhf WGBO-DT 66.1 UNI JOLIET IL 163° 37.0 53

* green - uhf WYCC-DT 20.1 PBS CHICAGO IL 163° 37.0 21

(You have Milwaukee stations to the north at 49 miles in the opposite direction; some of these may come in the backlobe of the antenna aimed at Chicago).


The key station is WBBM-DT CBS 2 with the digital signal at VHF 3. All of the others are currently at UHF. The good news is that in 2009, WBBM-DT will switch it's digital channel to VHF 11. If you want to get that station - and I gather it is a major problem station for OTA reception in the Chicago area - you will need a VHF/UHF antenna setup. An attic mount can certainly work depending on the construction and material used in the attic.


There are a number of approaches you could consider. One is to get a UHF only antenna such as the Channel Master 4228 8 Bay or CM 4221 4 Bay and combine that with a VHF only antenna. Or get a conventional VHF/UHF antenna from Winegard or Channel Master. If you go with an attic mount, don't fix the antenna mount down until you have found a spot with good receptions. Lots of dead zones in attic. But a roof mount would be better.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *yardline* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So my question on buying a dedicated UHF antenna like the Dat 75 is this: If in 2009 all HDTV stations have to give up their UHF bandwidth and switch back to the VHF 2-13 frequencies, what will that mean for my $200 investment?
> 
> 
> Thanks for the help in trying to figure this out.



The switch will be to channels 2-51. UHF reception for 14-51 will still be needed. Check your local thread to see where your locals will end up. Most final channel assignments have been decided had this point.


Whether the DAT75 is worth it is another discussion. There are antennas which are equal or at least very close in performance for much less. The big problem with the DAT is of course the shipping cost assuming you live in the US.


----------



## habscolts

Hey I am wondering if anyone could give me some advice on a preamp. I just hooked up a Channel Master 4228 and I am hoping to pick up stations from 65 miles away. Currently without a preamp, I am able to get a signal that never drops out from WVNY-22 (physical channel 13). They are broadcasting at 10kW. I am getting whispers on CBS WCAX-3 (53, 628 kW) and NBC WPTZ-5 (14 ~330 kW) and WFFF-44 (43 ~40 kW). They are all, including WVNY, broadcasting from the same mountain peak. I have 50 feet of cable in a direct run from the antenna to my tv. Would a preamp make the difference to bring in at least one of the other 3?


----------



## smackman1

I installed this 4228 today in place of a 4 foot yagi and I gained 15% in signal strength! Myu analog pictures on upper VHF are good to excellent! I am sold on this baby. If you need UHF reception and Upper VHF this is your antenna.

Smackman


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *habscolts* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey I am wondering if anyone could give me some advice on a preamp. I just hooked up a Channel Master 4228 and I am hoping to pick up stations from 65 miles away. Currently without a preamp, I am able to get a signal that never drops out from WVNY-22 (physical channel 13). They are broadcasting at 10kW. I am getting whispers on CBS WCAX-3 (53, 628 kW) and NBC WPTZ-5 (14 ~330 kW) and WFFF-44 (43 ~40 kW). They are all, including WVNY, broadcasting from the same mountain peak. I have 50 feet of cable in a direct run from the antenna to my tv. Would a preamp make the difference to bring in at least one of the other 3?



A preamp may be enough for WCAX, but I doubt that it would get the others. Channel 14's power is about 3 db below channel 53 and the 4228 has less gain on channel 14. WFFF at 40 kw...never mind.


The 91XG is a better choice for 14, but it won't do 13.


What more can you do? Try other locations for the antenna. Sometimes higher isn't better when the signal is refracted off a mountain. Your reception of channel 13 suggests that you are behind some terrain.


You can also stack two antennas for more signal.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/16bay.html


----------



## cltambo

I'm moving into a new part of a subdivision that will not have cable ran to it for a couple more months. In the meantime I was just going to use an antenna. According to antennaweb, I will be within 15 to 20 miles of all of the local stations I'm interested in. These are a mixture of red blue and violet and are in the same direction. Lowes has a Channel Master Stealthtenna Outdoor Antenna that looks ok. If I use this with an indoor booster can I just hook it up to the main cable line and run all my TVs off it. I would prefer not to put up a big boom antenna. In too months after I can get cable I plan on just putting it on and AB switch to use as a backup incase the cable goes out.


----------



## habscolts




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A preamp may be enough for WCAX, but I doubt that it would get the others. Channel 14's power is about 3 db below channel 53 and the 4228 has less gain on channel 14. WFFF at 40 kw...never mind.
> 
> 
> The 91XG is a better choice for 14, but it won't do 13.
> 
> 
> What more can you do? Try other locations for the antenna. Sometimes higher isn't better when the signal is refracted off a mountain. Your reception of channel 13 suggests that you are behind some terrain.
> 
> 
> You can also stack two antennas for more signal.
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/16bay.html



I'm actually almost at the top of a hill, there's maybe 10 more feet of elevation and then there is a great shot to Burlington and Montreal. It doesn't make much sense to me


----------



## sha04

I live in Newport News VA I got the terk tv5 I have all yellow and one red code channel. I am using 25ft of rg6 and I am also using an extra 12db amplifier and I have 88%+ on all channels but every once in a while about every 5 to 10 minutes some of the channels just drop then come right back up. Is there anything I can do to avoid the drop. I live about 18.5 miles away from the towers and the towers are between 190 degrees and 199 degrees on the compass so they are pretty close in direction.

any help would be great

thanks

Shawn

ps I have directv


----------



## Fester13

I was shocked and now ecstatic about the abilities of the Phillips MANT510 amplified antenna. I tried a $10 basic set of rabbit ears from Radio Shack and was able to get a couple digital channels. I live about 20-25 miles outside of Philadelphia. After I returned the "ears", I did a little research. Antennaweb was the best place to start and then I searched these forums and Googled OTA antennas. I settled on a stepped list of indoor antennas from a price standpoint and the next choice was the Phillips. When I pointed it towards the signals I found from antennaweb site, I instantly picked up 8 digital channels. This was with it sitting on a stereo speaker next to my TV. When I moved the antenna on top of a hutch, the digital world opened up to me. Mind you, I live in a 100 year old twin house on the side that doesn't face the signals. I aimed this antenna towards my neighbors house and BAM!, I got 25 analog (which I have since deleted) and 15 digital feeds. I am a D*TV customer and I didn't want to pay for their HD package and I'm extremely satisfied with this antenna. Does the signal occasionally drop, yes it does for a couple seconds. Do I care, hell no!







Watching Letterman and Leno in HD is amazing! I watched all the NFL playoff games in HD last weekend and the BCS game Monday. Digital Rocks! Do your research and be patient. You'll find something that works for you. For now, I'm good!


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sha04* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live in Newport News VA I got the terk tv5 I have all yellow and one red code channel. I am using 25ft of rg6 and I am also using an extra 12db amplifier and I have 88%+ on all channels but every once in a while about every 5 to 10 minutes some of the channels just drop then come right back up. Is there anything I can do to avoid the drop. I live about 18.5 miles away from the towers and the towers are between 190 degrees and 199 degrees on the compass so they are pretty close in direction.



Plugging in a random zip code for Newport News, VA - 23607 - into antennaweb, I get the following digital stations:


* yellow - uhf HERO-DT 15.1 PBS HAMPTON-NORFOLK VA 210° 13.2 16

* yellow - uhf WGNT-DT 27.1 CW PORTSMOUTH VA 201° 12.4 50

* yellow - uhf WAVY-DT 10.1 NBC PORTSMOUTH VA 213° 12.6 31

* yellow - uhf WVBT-DT 43.1 FOX VIRGINIA BEACH VA 213° 12.6 29

* yellow - uhf WVEC-DT 13.1 ABC HAMPTON VA 203° 12.1 41

* yellow - uhf WPXV-DT 49.1 i NORFOLK VA 210° 13.2 46

* yellow - uhf WTKR-DT 3.1 CBS NORFOLK VA 210° 13.2 40

* yellow - uhf WTVZ-DT 33.1 MNT NORFOLK VA 210° 13.2 38


All of the stations are currently digitally broadcasting on UHF. The good news for simplyfing antenna selection is that only WVEC-DT ABC 13 will be switching it's digital channel back to upper VHF, in their case 13, after the analog shutdown in February, 2009. Many UHF antenna can pick up VHF 13 reasonably well.


The Terk TV5 you have is not considered to be a very good antenna. If you are doing that well with it, you might want to give the Silver Sensor UHF antenna a shot. But you should place the antenna in a spot with a clear shot in the direction of the broadcast towers and where people don't walk in front of the antenna. Circuit City has been carrying the Silver Sensor under the Philips brand for around $25.


If you want to get somewhat more ambitous and have an attic or are willing to consider an outdoor mount, the Channel Master 4221 4 Bay should get all of those stations. The CM 4221 can be ordered online from places like solidsignal.com or warrenelectronics.com.


----------



## ama299




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Fester13* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was shocked and now ecstatic about the abilities of the Phillips MANT510 amplified antenna. I tried a $10 basic set of rabbit ears from Radio Shack and was able to get a couple digital channels. I live about 20-25 miles outside of Philadelphia. After I returned the "ears", I did a little research. Antennaweb was the best place to start and then I searched these forums and Googled OTA antennas. I settled on a stepped list of indoor antennas from a price standpoint and the next choice was the Phillips. When I pointed it towards the signals I found from antennaweb site, I instantly picked up 8 digital channels. This was with it sitting on a stereo speaker next to my TV. When I moved the antenna on top of a hutch, the digital world opened up to me. Mind you, I live in a 100 year old twin house on the side that doesn't face the signals. I aimed this antenna towards my neighbors house and BAM!, I got 25 analog (which I have since deleted) and 15 digital feeds. I am a D*TV customer and I didn't want to pay for their HD package and I'm extremely satisfied with this antenna. Does the signal occasionally drop, yes it does for a couple seconds. Do I care, hell no!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Watching Letterman and Leno in HD is amazing! I watched all the NFL playoff games in HD last weekend and the BCS game Monday. Digital Rocks! Do your research and be patient. You'll find something that works for you. For now, I'm good!



I agree I too have had great successes with this antenna. I live 47 miles from the stations and I have this in my living room. I have to play around with it to pick it up. I can pick up analog stations 60 miles away. Also I have tried the MANT310 which works just as good as the 510 for the UHF band.


I have a CM4228 on order I want my DT all the time, and all the Channels


----------



## Dewey TO

I have seen numerous ravings about the CM 7777 preamp. I have the 7777, and I also have the CM 0264. I compared them using the Winegard 8800 bow antenna, and the 0264 outgained the 7777 by about 10% in my setup. The reason is that the 0264 has 300 ohm inputs and a balun is not needed.


----------



## jplayland

I have tried the silver sensor and the terk HDTVa antennas and depending on location within my apartment I can get most channels without signal loss, or all channels with frequent signal loss on a few.


I live at 55077, on the ground floor of a 3 story apartment built in the late 60s. My patio faces south and my bedroom window faces East. To the north and west are other apartments in my building and other apartment buildings. According to antennaweb signals are comming from 345° (NNW). Dish Network is being installed Monday but I ellected to skip locals since they do not carry them all, and I have been told OTA should be better quality. I would like to recieve the following locals:


* yellow - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 347° 13.2 26

* yellow - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 344° 13.6 35

* yellow - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 344° 13.6 32

* yellow - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 347° 13.2 21

* yellow - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL MN 344° 13.6 50

* yellow - uhf KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 347° 13.2 34

* red - uhf KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN 344° 13.6 44 -can live without this one

* blue - uhf WUCW-DT 23.1 CW MINNEAPOLIS MN 344° 13.6 22


Will I have better luck with an outdoor antenna with my location/obstructions/placement options? Is there an antenna that can be attached to the dish being installed? What would you guys recommend for an (indoor or outdoor) antenna and its placement?


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jplayland* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Dish Network is being installed Monday but I ellected to skip locals since they do not carry them all, and I have been told OTA should be better quality.



Just to make sure you're aware -


If you do not subscribe to the locals from Dish (Either HD or SD), you will not receive the guide info for those channels.


You can get the info from websites such as www.titantv.com or www.zap2it.com , though.


----------



## Gbell

ANy tips for a guy living in a condo building with ni balcony? I have two silvor sensors split and pointed in opposite directions (glass building across the street, so I'm assuming multicast).. I get NBC, but that is it!


----------



## Gbell

Oh, I live in downtown San Diego. my apartment faces west.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Gbell* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ANy tips for a guy living in a condo building with ni balcony? I have two silvor sensors split and pointed in opposite directions (glass building across the street, so I'm assuming multicast).. I get NBC, but that is it!



You mean multi-path. Did you have any results with 1 Silver Sensor antenna?


----------



## tsunami2311

Hi, I have an Digital amp and Analog amp and 2 HDTV


1 tv has a line from from the Digital amp (get more Digital HD with high signal)


2 tv has line going from the Digital to Analog amp then to the tv (get few digital HD with much lower singal that go in and out)



If line is going through a Digital then Analog amp does the Analog negate the Digital amps work?


I attach picture of diagram

Pic


----------



## tsunami2311

Cause only 2 tv have atsc tuner and rest are ntsc and when we got the d.amp we only have one tv with atsc tuner



I just wana know if the line I using on my tv which is going through the d.amp then a.amp if I take the a.amp out of the line would it fix the signal problem my tv has cause it very low on digtal channels while other line that isnt going through the a.amp has nice signal



Antenna=unknown

a.amp=rca

d.amp=channel master


probably about 35-45 feet total of coxial


----------



## tsunami2311

Im sorry the Channelmaster one is Pre-amp 1way(model 0064 DSB) digital amp only while the rca is 4way a.amp is analog only or so i told


I need both amps cause some one "needs" to have there ntsc signal amp or it all snow and in general with out the amp/pre-amp analog is snow and digital dont come in


As the Tv1 only pick up the digital channel all the analog channels are snow


Tv2 Pick up Digtal channels that TV1 gets but the signal is terrible this line and mostly go out this is on a spliter one line goes to my tv and the other tv


we also have Channel master antenna rotator but moving constanly not really and option


----------



## tsunami2311

Talked to my dad some more about the setup since it was setup before i even got my tv
pic update 



this setup would imply my line is not going through the psu for the digital amp.... which would explian why my digital singal strength is bad but analog is good.....but this would imply he not get the analog channels cause he going through the psu for the digital amp???


maybe I should put the psu for the CM amp first then have that go to the 4way rca amp but if I did this analog channels would be snow every other tv get analog channels fine and I cant have that as they dont come in on tv1.. and run another line so I dont go through a spilter?


BTW I try to pick up Ny,New york locals as the suppliers to North NJ


CBS-2

NBC-2

FOX-5

ABC-7

UPN-9

WB/CW-11


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jplayland* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live at 55077, on the ground floor of a 3 story apartment built in the late 60s. My patio faces south and my bedroom window faces East. To the north and west are other apartments in my building and other apartment buildings. According to antennaweb signals are comming from 345° (NNW).
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Will I have better luck with an outdoor antenna with my location/obstructions/placement options? Is there an antenna that can be attached to the dish being installed? What would you guys recommend for an (indoor or outdoor) antenna and its placement?



If you can place an antenna on the patio facing west, that might work. The AntennasDirect DB-2 two bay bowtie can be mounted indoors or in a patio area where it small enough to mounted in a discrete spot. See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB2.html for a discussion. Look at the gain charts at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html .


----------



## KeithAR2002

I have a question about the 7777 Preamp. My 7777 power supply has gone out, and I was wondering if the power supply to the CM Spartan 3041DSB would work for the 7777. They sell the 3041DSB at Lowe's, and I didn't want to wait a week to get another 7777. If the power supply brick for the 3041DSB will work, then I would like to just go to Lowe's and pick it up, just for the power supply. Will this work? The power supply bricks look identical.


Thanks!


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KeithAR2002* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a question about the 7777 Preamp. My 7777 power supply has gone out, and I was wondering if the power supply to the CM Spartan 3041DSB would work for the 7777. They sell the 3041DSB at Lowe's, and I didn't want to wait a week to get another 7777. If the power supply brick for the 3041DSB will work, then I would like to just go to Lowe's and pick it up, just for the power supply. Will this work? The power supply bricks look identical.
> 
> 
> Thanks!



Yep,It'll work.


----------



## bradesp

Guys,


I'm ordering a CM7777 to work with my attic antenna (CM4221). The cable run from the antenna to my HTPC on the first floor of my house is approx. 100 feet. I also have an HDTV / Plasma in another room (upstairs) I want to feed as well.


So here's my question:


Let's assume a preamp is necessary (I can't pull in channels now, so I'm hoping it will help. the antennaweb folks say I'm yellow and red with one blue). I'm in North Raleigh, NC and the UHF Towers are all clustered in one location south east of where I am, and approx. 18 miles away.


How would you feed both tv's? How about this:

Antenna > Preamp > distribution Amp > splitter > two runs, one to each HDTV location.


Or would you go:


Antenna > Preamp > Splitter > Two runs and then avoid the distribution amp altogether?


Thanks!!!


bradesp


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bradesp* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How would you feed both tv's?



Brad,

I'd just try a splitter after the preamp 1st. Please remember that the 7777 is putting out 26 dB(UHF). Way more than enough to overcome 100' of cable attenuation, and easily enough to feed another 200' of cable.

....jc


----------



## ctdish

The distribution amp most likely won't help. If you really can't get anything at 18 miles either something is not connected correctly or the attic is well sheilded and the preamp is unlikely to solve the problem. Yellow and red signals are very strong and could overload the preamp so even that may hurt at your location. How do analog stations look on your TV, especially UHF ones? Ghosts indicate multipath and very snowy is caused by weak signal.

John


----------



## bradesp

I'll check out the queston regarding analog signal tonight and report back.


thx!


----------



## puddnhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Fester13* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was shocked and now ecstatic about the abilities of the Phillips MANT510 amplified antenna. I tried a $10 basic set of rabbit ears from Radio Shack and was able to get a couple digital channels. I live about 20-25 miles outside of Philadelphia. After I returned the "ears", I did a little research. Antennaweb was the best place to start and then I searched these forums and Googled OTA antennas. I settled on a stepped list of indoor antennas from a price standpoint and the next choice was the Phillips. When I pointed it towards the signals I found from antennaweb site, I instantly picked up 8 digital channels. This was with it sitting on a stereo speaker next to my TV. When I moved the antenna on top of a hutch, the digital world opened up to me. Mind you, I live in a 100 year old twin house on the side that doesn't face the signals. I aimed this antenna towards my neighbors house and BAM!, I got 25 analog (which I have since deleted) and 15 digital feeds. I am a D*TV customer and I didn't want to pay for their HD package and I'm extremely satisfied with this antenna. Does the signal occasionally drop, yes it does for a couple seconds. Do I care, hell no!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Watching Letterman and Leno in HD is amazing! I watched all the NFL playoff games in HD last weekend and the BCS game Monday. Digital Rocks! Do your research and be patient. You'll find something that works for you. For now, I'm good!



Hey, I don't know if you were responding directly to my post furhter down the page from the week before, where I reported how I stumbled on the MANT510, buying it on a lark while I was trying out "real" (big/expensive) antennas. If not, you may want ot scan down teh page to my 1/4 post. Sounds like we had similair experiences.


----------



## KeithAR2002




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yep,It'll work.



Thanks for the info... I went and got it today, and it worked perfectly. Thanks again!


----------



## WooleyBooger

Based on this info from AntennaWeb...what would be my best bet (as cheaply as possible) to receive these channels? I am new to all of this, but have been trying to learn all i can. Thanks for the help...



* red - uhf KTAL-DT 6.1 NBC TEXARKANA TX 169° 30.3 15

* blue - uhf KTBS-DT 3.1 ABC SHREVEPORT LA 166° 45.8 28

* violet - uhf KMSS-DT 34.1 FOX SHREVEPORT LA 167° 47.2 34

* violet - uhf KSLA-DT 12.1 CBS SHREVEPORT LA 167° 46.5 17


----------



## keeneye

Hello,


I've just gotten my hand on an old CM 0064C preamp (Spartan 2). It has a single 300 Ohm UHF/VHF combined input.


I wasn't able to find any specs for this model on the web.


Anyone here knows what the specs for this older model are?


Thanks!


----------



## m_vanmeter

tsunami2311---


your digital amp at the antenna is not getting the injected DC voltage to operate, it is probably blocked at the distribution amp. Plus, it is usually a bad practice to try to amplify an amplified signal - injecting way too much noise into the signal.


you need to simplify your setup. The amp at your antenna should be a very high grade Winegard or Channel Master unit and replace the "analog amp" with a high grade 4 way splitter. put the voltage injector for the antenna amp in-line before the splitter.


in reality, there is not such thing as a digital vs. analog amp. They all amplify the RF signal regardless of it's modulation.


----------



## exguitarplayer

I am confused about HDTV reception and cold weather. I live in upstate NY and I can receive OTT channels from MT. Mansfield, VT. I am using a antenna direct Uhf 91XG with a Winegard AP 8283 Chromstar 2000 Series Pre Amplifier, of course a rotor, approx. 60' in the air. I am by theory NOT suppose to receive the channels as I am out of the range and live in a DEEP fringe location.

Theory was wrong, I do receive most of the HD OTA with about a 60%-70% signal.

Now the question! When it drops to under 25 * my signal increases dramatically. Fox which transmits on Freq. 43 is almost impossible to view, but when the weather is cold (like today) 0* it is fantasic. It does not matter whether it is cloudy or clear...just cold!!!

Perhaps someone has the answer! I am afraid when spring comes my OTA will vanish like the snow...


----------



## KeithAR2002




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *exguitarplayer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am confused about HDTV reception and cold weather. I live in upstate NY and I can receive OTT channels from MT. Mansfield, VT. I am using a antenna direct Uhf 91XG with a Winegard AP 8283 Chromstar 2000 Series Pre Amplifier, of course a rotor, approx. 60' in the air. I am by theory NOT suppose to receive the channels as I am out of the range and live in a DEEP fringe location.
> 
> Theory was wrong, I do receive most of the HD OTA with about a 60%-70% signal.
> 
> Now the question! When it drops to under 25 * my signal increases dramatically. Fox which transmits on Freq. 43 is almost impossible to view, but when the weather is cold (like today) 0* it is fantasic. It does not matter whether it is cloudy or clear...just cold!!!
> 
> Perhaps someone has the answer! I am afraid when spring comes my OTA will vanish like the snow...



That's pretty odd... I have a terrible time receiving OTA during the winter months, but once Spring rolls around, I'm able to watch all the Shreveport digitals (80 miles) pretty much daily. I'm interested in seeing the responses to your question... I'd like to know the answer, as well.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WooleyBooger* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Based on this info from AntennaWeb...what would be my best bet (as cheaply as possible) to receive these channels? I am new to all of this, but have been trying to learn all i can. Thanks for the help...
> 
> 
> * red - uhf KTAL-DT 6.1 NBC TEXARKANA TX 169° 30.3 15
> 
> * blue - uhf KTBS-DT 3.1 ABC SHREVEPORT LA 166° 45.8 28
> 
> * violet - uhf KMSS-DT 34.1 FOX SHREVEPORT LA 167° 47.2 34
> 
> * violet - uhf KSLA-DT 12.1 CBS SHREVEPORT LA 167° 46.5 17



It is always useful to provide your zip code, so we can look up what other stations you may be able to receive. All four of the stations on your list are digitally broadcasting on UHF and these four will stay at UHF after the analog shutdown in 2009. They are all in the same direction at 30 to 47 miles. The typical antenna recommendation for you would be the Channel Master 4228 8 Bay or the AntennasDirect 91XG mounted on the roof. Look these antennas up at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html under the comparing commercial antennas link.


----------



## WooleyBooger

Thanks for the info! I will take a look at both of those options. My zipcode btw is 75501.


Thanks again...


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *exguitarplayer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> When it drops to under 25 * my signal increases dramatically.



My experience is just the opposite. From what I've read about signal propagation, it seems that a high dew point creates conditions that allow the TV signal to bend around the curve of the earth, thus the ability to receive at farther distances. When the air is cold and dry (low dew point), it should be pretty much line of sight only. 'Course there are several other factors involved.


My reception, at 75 miles, is much better from spring through fall, than it is in winter. Temp here right now is about 25 degrees and my reception sucks. Of the seven distant station I get during the summer, I'm only getting one of them right now.


----------



## KeithAR2002

Hey Neil, I'm just curious, but what is the one distant station you receive this time of the year? Is it from Memphis? I can usually at least get the Shreveport FOX station from here (El Dorado) after dark, but reception has been just horrible for the past week. Without some enhancement, all I can receive digitally is AETN, and NBC-HD. I'm guessing all you can receive under normal conditions are AETN and KAIT-DT. It's difficult living out in the sticks...lol...


----------



## exguitarplayer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *exguitarplayer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am confused about HDTV reception and cold weather. I live in upstate NY and I can receive OTT channels from MT. Mansfield, VT. I am using a antenna direct Uhf 91XG with a Winegard AP 8283 Chromstar 2000 Series Pre Amplifier, of course a rotor, approx. 60' in the air. I am by theory NOT suppose to receive the channels as I am out of the range and live in a DEEP fringe location.
> 
> Theory was wrong, I do receive most of the HD OTA with about a 60%-70% signal.
> 
> Now the question! When it drops to under 25 * my signal increases dramatically. Fox which transmits on Freq. 43 is almost impossible to view, but when the weather is cold (like today) 0* it is fantasic. It does not matter whether it is cloudy or clear...just cold!!!
> 
> Perhaps someone has the answer! I am afraid when spring comes my OTA will vanish like the snow...



Thanks for the replies.....My zip is 12912 and here are the stations per antennaweb

WPTZ-DT 5.1 NBC NORTH POLE NY 123° 33.4 14

uhf WETK-DT 33.1 PBS BURLINGTON VT 123° 33.4 32

uhf WCAX-DT 3.1 CBS BURLINGTON VT 123° 33.4 53

vhf WVNY-DT 22.1 ABC BURLINGTON VT 123° 33.4 13

uhf WFFF-DT 44.1 FOX BURLINGTON VT 123° 33.4 43

uhf WCFE-DT 57.1 PBS PLATTSBURGH NY 287° 20.9 38 (transmitting from Lyon MT, NY)

I do receive all the stations listed, however when it is above 30* the signal drops to the 50%-60% with much pixalization and drop outs. Like stated earlier 20* and below all on 70*-80* signal strength. I have spoke to the techs at Mt. Mansfield, VT. many times, they are as confused as I. They know my exact location and call me often when they are having problems (running on reduced power) to ask about my signal. Kind of neat really to have contact with the guys pushing out the power.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WooleyBooger* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info! I will take a look at both of those options. My zipcode btw is 75501.



The complete list of the digital stations you should get should include:


* green - uhf KPXJ-DT 21.1 CW MINDEN LA TBD 166° 51.0 21

* red - uhf KSHV-DT 45.1 MNT SHREVEPORT LA 166° 53.4 44

* violet - uhf KLTS-DT 24.1 PBS SHREVEPORT LA 165° 51.5 25


The range is different because I am using only your zip code. The interesting thing is that KPXJ-DT CW 21 is a digital only station because they shut their analog broadcast in 2005. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KPXJ for details.


A check of the Shreveport local thread shows that KTAL NBC 6 is not yet broadcasting in HD, supposed to do so by mid-February.


----------



## shakin cliches

Hi everyone. I would love some insight on what kind of antenna to get.


Here are my numbers:

* red - uhf WLEX-DT 18.1 NBC LEXINGTON KY 122° 17.4 39

* red - vhf WKYT-DT 27.1 CBS LEXINGTON KY 122° 16.8 13

* red - vhf WDKY-DT 56.1 FOX DANVILLE KY 138° 27.0 4

* red - uhf WKON-DT 52.1 PBS OWENTON KY 349° 26.7 44

* blue - uhf WKLE-DT 46.1 PBS LEXINGTON KY 139° 26.9 42


Ideally, I would like to be able to pull it off with an indoor antenna, but if needed can mount an outdoor on the eastern side of my house.


Any input or ideas?


Thanks a bunch.


----------



## exguitarplayer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shakin cliches* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi everyone. I would love some insight on what kind of antenna to get.
> 
> 
> Here are my numbers:
> 
> * red - uhf WLEX-DT 18.1 NBC LEXINGTON KY 122° 17.4 39
> 
> * red - vhf WKYT-DT 27.1 CBS LEXINGTON KY 122° 16.8 13
> 
> * red - vhf WDKY-DT 56.1 FOX DANVILLE KY 138° 27.0 4
> 
> * red - uhf WKON-DT 52.1 PBS OWENTON KY 349° 26.7 44
> 
> * blue - uhf WKLE-DT 46.1 PBS LEXINGTON KY 139° 26.9 42
> 
> 
> Ideally, I would like to be able to pull it off with an indoor antenna, but if needed can mount an outdoor on the eastern side of my house.
> 
> 
> Any input or ideas?
> 
> 
> Thanks a bunch.



As a personal thought I would immediately go with the outside antenna option. As described in your post the different direction of signals you may want to purchase a rotor also.

I believe the Channel Master U/V/FM (3679) might be your choice as your receiving two VHF digital. However, if you want to TRY the indoor method 1st, the Channel Master Indoor UHF/VHF/FM INDOOR ANTENNA (4010) might work well.


----------



## shakin cliches




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *exguitarplayer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As a personal thought I would immediately go with the outside antenna option. As described in your post the different direction of signals you may want to purchase a rotor also.
> 
> I believe the Channel Master U/V/FM (3679) might be your choice as your receiving two VHF digital. However, if you want to TRY the indoor method 1st, the Channel Master Indoor UHF/VHF/FM INDOOR ANTENNA (4010) might work well.



Thanks for the advice.


Really I don't need the channel 52.1 at 349deg as long as I can pick up 46.1 at 139deg.


That would mean all 4 of my channels would be between 122 and 139 degrees. Would that change your opinion?


----------



## exguitarplayer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shakin cliches* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice.
> 
> 
> Really I don't need the channel 52.1 at 349deg as long as I can pick up 46.1 at 139deg.
> 
> 
> That would mean all 4 of my channels would be between 122 and 139 degrees. Would that change your opinion?



Yes, if I were in your position I would go to the nearest Radio Shack and purchase their best Indoor Amplified Antenna, keep the receipt as you may want to return it. At the very least this would provide you an inference on what you are able to receive using the indoor option. Good luck !!


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *exguitarplayer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes, if I were in your position I would go to the nearest Radio Shack and purchase their best Indoor Amplified Antenna, keep the receipt as you may want to return it. At the very least this would provide you an inference on what you are able to receive using the indoor option. Good luck !!



You might want to try RS's 15-1892 model. It's remote controlled and repositions for every channel. It has gotten some good results for a few people here.


----------



## HBIC

antennaweb.org says that I need anywhere from a medium directional to a large directional with pre-amp


Fox is the one that comes up needing the large directional w/pre-amp but I get it(and about 14 other OTA Digital Signals off top of my head) with my Zenith Silver Sensor($23.75 delivered off Ebay)


my zipcode is 23185 but 23188 and 23090 are both very close to me too:

*23185:*


violet - uhf WTKR-DT 3.1 CBS NORFOLK VA 165° 33.6 40

* violet - uhf WHRO-DT 15.1 PBS HAMPTON-NORFOLK VA 165° 33.6 16

*23090*


green - uhf WTKR-DT 3.1 CBS NORFOLK VA 169° 39.1 40

* green - uhf WHRO-DT 15.1 PBS HAMPTON-NORFOLK VA 169° 39.1 16

* lt green - uhf WCVE-DT 23.1 PBS RICHMOND VA 295° 48.0 42

* red - uhf WTVR-DT 6.1 CBS RICHMOND VA 295° 48.0 25

* red - uhf WRIC-DT 8.1 ABC PETERSBURG VA 295° 48.0 22

* red - uhf WTVZ-DT 33.1 MNT NORFOLK VA 169° 39.1 38

* red - uhf WVBT-DT 43.1 FOX VIRGINIA BEACH VA 169° 38.2 29

* red - uhf WVEC-DT 13.1 ABC HAMPTON VA 166° 39.4 41

* red - uhf WPXV-DT 49.1 i NORFOLK VA 169° 39.1 46

* red - uhf WAVY-DT 10.1 NBC PORTSMOUTH VA 169° 38.2 31

* red - uhf WWBT-DT 12.1 NBC RICHMOND VA 296° 42.7 54

* blue - uhf WCVW-DT 23.1 PBS RICHMOND VA 295° 48.0 44

* violet - uhf WRLH-DT 35.1 FOX RICHMOND VA 295° 48.0 26

*23188:*

yellow - uhf WHRO-DT 15.1 PBS HAMPTON-NORFOLK VA 169° 35.4 16

* yellow - uhf WTKR-DT 3.1 CBS NORFOLK VA 169° 35.4 40

* yellow - uhf WTVZ-DT 33.1 MNT NORFOLK VA 169° 35.4 38

* yellow - uhf WVBT-DT 43.1 FOX VIRGINIA BEACH VA 170° 34.5 29

* yellow - uhf WVEC-DT 13.1 ABC HAMPTON VA 166° 35.6 41

* yellow - uhf WPXV-DT 49.1 i NORFOLK VA 169° 35.4 46

* yellow - uhf WAVY-DT 10.1 NBC PORTSMOUTH VA 170° 34.5 31

* blue - uhf WCVE-DT 23.1 PBS RICHMOND VA 298° 50.3 42

* blue - uhf WCVW-DT 23.1 PBS RICHMOND VA 298° 50.3 44

* blue - uhf WWBT-DT 12.1 NBC RICHMOND VA 300° 45.0 54

* blue - uhf WUPV-DT 47.1 CW ASHLAND VA 328° 42.5 47

* blue - uhf WTVR-DT 6.1 CBS RICHMOND VA 298° 50.3 25

* blue - uhf WRIC-DT 8.1 ABC PETERSBURG VA 298° 50.3 22

* violet - uhf WRLH-DT 35.1 FOX RICHMOND VA 298° 50.3 26



I will ck tonite what channels i get exactly but i do know that Fox is 35.1 and that I dont get the Fox on 43.1


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HBIC* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> my zipcode is 23185 but 23188 and 23090 are both very close to me too:



Note that with Antennaweb, you can click on the street-level map to re-center it and update the channel listings accordingly. With a bit of work, you can center it on your exact location (give or take a hundred feet or so). Or you can enter your address to give it a starting point that's close to your actual location, although I can understand why you might not want to do that.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KeithAR2002* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey Neil, I'm just curious, but what is the one distant station you receive this time of the year? Is it from Memphis?



Yes, it's WREG.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KeithAR2002* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I can usually at least get the Shreveport FOX station from here (El Dorado) after dark, but reception has been just horrible for the past week. Without some enhancement, all I can receive digitally is AETN, and NBC-HD. I'm guessing all you can receive under normal conditions are AETN and KAIT-DT.



That is correct. KAIT-DT is about 25 miles away, and AETN is 20 miles. I get both 24/7 in any kind of weather.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KeithAR2002* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It's difficult living out in the sticks...lol...



Yup. When conditions are good, I get an excellant signal from some (if not all) of the Memphis stations. Other times the signal is too weak to get a lock.


----------



## steverichmond




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> cm7777 question.
> 
> 
> is it a good idea to terminate the unused port on the cm7777 preamp. if terminated, what affect should it have on overall system performance.




I Also have a cm7777 preamp question. I have one connection between my power supply and the amp and I unscrewed the connection to replace the connector with a new one while the power supply was plugged in. I noticed a small electrical arch when I began screwing them back together. Did I damage my preamp with my negligence? Sorry if this is a stupid question.


----------



## greywolf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *steverichmond* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I Also have a cm7777 preamp question. I have one connection between my power supply and the amp and I unscrewed the connection to replace the connector with a new one while the power supply was plugged in. I noticed a small electrical arch when I began screwing them back together. Did I damage my preamp with my negligence? Sorry if this is a stupid question.



It depends on whether the spark was from making the connection or shorting the leads. If there was damage, it won't work at all.


----------



## geekgirrl

Ok guys I bought the Channel Master 4228 antenna today and put it up.

One of the tech guys at the electronics store made a phone call to an installer and he said the antenna that's half the size of the 4228(8 bay) and an amp would be plenty and that the 4228 and amp would be too much and I might get some bleed through from other channels.


I decided to just get the 4228 and put it up without an amp and see how it does.

I did buy the amp but will only hook it up if I need to.

The amp is Winegard AP-4700 PRE AMP.


So the antenna is up and the antenna cable comes down the side of the house to a splitter block and that is about a 25' run. Then the antenna cable runs maybe 10' to the H20 Directv receiver and also about 30' from the splitter block to my HR10-250 receiver.


Here is my dilemma. The H20 gets all the local HD stations I could want with no pixelization. On the sat strength screen all the channels come in between 66% to 78%. On the HR10-250 channel 23-1(fox) doesn't come in at all. I cant seem to get the OTA signal strength meter to work on the HR10-250.


What should I do? Add the amp to the antenna to get in the stations? Replace the cable on the HR10-250?

Is the HR10-250 known for needing a stronger signal?


My concerns are that I might over power the H20 if I hook up the amp but I think that's what I'm going to do today. We'll see how it all works out while I'm hooking it up.


I also have a HR20 coming Feb 1st : ) Then I guess the HR10-250 will replace the H20 in the other room.


Thanks for the help : )


----------



## geekgirrl

I hooked up the amp and now the h20 gets 905-100% on all my OTA HD stations and two are 45 miles away so that's pretty good.

The HR10-250 now gets all the OTA stations in HD but the signal meter still doesn't work.


Thanks for the help : )





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> try it down low first outside at the splitter block so you do not have to climb . or at the antenna if you want to get on the roof.
> 
> 
> see how it works inside, make sure the aim of the antenna is right on.
> 
> 
> if the amp does not overload, install at the antenna. the sign of overload would be co channel interference on analog and signal going down on digital aimed at the towers and as you aim away, the signal would go up.
> 
> 
> do not worry about overkill. in over 30 years of doing this, I never experienced overload with an oversize antenna unamplified unless the towers were "across the street".
> 
> 
> on the hr10 if the signal meters do not work unplug the unit for a minute and let it restart. this is common especially after the update a few months ago.


----------



## thejokell

I've been looking for a good antenna for my new HDTV. So far I've used two that I could buy at Best Buy - a Terk HDTVa and an RCA ANT537. Neither have been good enough for my use. I'm currently trying to decide between the Winegard SS-3000 and the Winegard SS-1000. I've heard great things about both of them. I want to stick with an indoor antenna if possible, but I realize that an outdoor may be necessary. Here's my stats from AntennaWeb:


yellow - uhf WHRO-DT 15.1 PBS HAMPTON-NORFOLK VA 301° 14.0 16

* yellow - uhf WGNT-DT 27.1 CW PORTSMOUTH VA 305° 12.1 50

* yellow - uhf WPXV-DT 49.1 i NORFOLK VA 301° 14.0 46

* yellow - uhf WTKR-DT 3.1 CBS NORFOLK VA 301° 14.0 40

* yellow - uhf WTVZ-DT 33.1 MNT NORFOLK VA 301° 14.0 38

* green - uhf WAVY-DT 10.1 NBC PORTSMOUTH VA 303° 14.8 31

* red - uhf WVBT-DT 43.1 FOX VIRGINIA BEACH VA 303° 14.8 29

* red - uhf WVEC-DT 13.1 ABC HAMPTON VA 306° 12.5 41


Anyone familiar with those two Winegards have any advice? I'd love to be able to buy one in a store, so I can return it if necessary, but I can't seem to find anyone locally that sells one.


Thanks!


----------



## Wozzer73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You might want to try RS's 15-1892 model. It's remote controlled and repositions for every channel. It has gotten some good results for a few people here.




I can't generalize, but in my limited experience I found setting up the 15-1892 frustrating because of the dual variables of placing the antenna somewhere, and THEN having to use the built in motor to rotate it to find the "sweet spot". Furthermore, my TV would not "add" any digital channels unless I did the whole set tuning, meaning it would erase any channels not being received in the antenna's current position. I found that the Radio Shack 15-2186 gave me slightly better reception, is smaller than the 15-1892, and is way less frustrating to setup. The 15-2186 is still imperfect so I'm going to give the silver sensor a try, then I might just go back to the 15-2186 or get a DB-2. Anyone know if the DB-2 without a preamp will be better than the 15-2186?


----------



## exguitarplayer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wozzer73* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I can't generalize, but in my limited experience I found setting up the 15-1892 frustrating because of the dual variables of placing the antenna somewhere, and THEN having to use the built in motor to rotate it to find the "sweet spot". Furthermore, my TV would not "add" any digital channels unless I did the whole set tuning, meaning it would erase any channels not being received in the antenna's current position. I found that the Radio Shack 15-2186 gave me slightly better reception, is smaller than the 15-1892, and is way less frustrating to setup. The 15-2186 is still imperfect so I'm going to give the silver sensor a try, then I might just go back to the 15-2186 or get a DB-2. Anyone know if the DB-2 without a preamp will be better than the 15-2186?



I have found the Antenna Direct 91XG to be an outstanding antenna. I reside in a deep fringe area in upstate NY.....this antenna does the job for me!

WPTZ-DT 5.1 NBC NORTH POLE NY 123° 33.4 14

uhf WETK-DT 33.1 PBS BURLINGTON VT 123° 33.4 32

uhf WCAX-DT 3.1 CBS BURLINGTON VT 123° 33.4 53

vhf WVNY-DT 22.1 ABC BURLINGTON VT 123° 33.4 13

uhf WFFF-DT 44.1 FOX BURLINGTON VT 123° 33.4 43

uhf WCFE-DT 57.1 PBS PLATTSBURGH NY 287° 20.9 38


----------



## Mike Maloney

I think I suck at hooking up my antenna. Long story short, my apartment building has Dish Network running through the building, but it can currently only handle MPEG2, not MPEG4, so while I can get ESPNHD, TNTHD, etc., I can't get any of my local HD channels. So...I picked up an indoor antenna (RCA ANT1250). I looked up a list of antennas on antennaweb (60610). Now, since I live in downtown Chicago, there are a number of antennas in the vicinity, so I would assume I would be able to pick up signals.


Well, after some fiddling around, I've managed to get my Dish receiver (Model 811) to pick up CBS-HD. However, I can't for the life of me get anything resembling signal strength from any other channel. I figure with three antennas within a mile of my building, I have to be doing something wrong.


My antenna has the option to be amplified. I was told this could cause overload, so I have been trying to pick up the signals without the amplification (Well, I've tried it both ways, neither works). Now, since our whole building is supplied by Dish, I have to use the regular cable coax input into the receiver, since that's how everything is hooked up. So I have my satellite input running through the antenna, and then the antenna hooks up to the receiver. I'm just going based on the antenna's instructions. Should I be putting the antenna into my receiver's 'antenna' input, and if so, what does that do for me? What else could I be doing wrong? I have to be screwing up somewhere in order to not get any signal strength from any of the digital channels out there.


Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mike Maloney* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So...I picked up an indoor antenna (RCA ANT1250). I looked up a list of antennas on antennaweb (60610). Now, since I live in downtown Chicago, there are a number of antennas in the vicinity, so I would assume I would be able to pick up signals.
> 
> ...
> 
> My antenna has the option to be amplified. I was told this could cause overload, so I have been trying to pick up the signals without the amplification (Well, I've tried it both ways, neither works).



You typically can't turn the amplifier off with these cheap antennas with the built-in amps. Turning the amp off shuts off the signal path from the antenna. Turn the amp on and you may overload the front end and/or make your multipath problems a lot worse. If you live close to the broadcast towers, you should *NOT* buy an antenna with a built-in amp.


In Chicago, you have the problem of getting the low VHF station while the other digital stations are currently at UHF. Get an non-amplified antenna with rabbit ears for VHF and either a UHF loop or Silver Sensor UHF antenna. Hate to recommend a Terk, but give the Terk HDTVi (NOT the HDTVa!!!!) a shot.


----------



## ctdish

- Also connect the apartment building cable to the F connector labeled Satellite and your TV antenna to the TV F connector, both on the back of the 811. Then do a scan for local channels. John


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *exguitarplayer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have found the Antenna Direct 91XG to be an outstanding antenna. I reside in a deep fringe area in upstate NY.....this antenna does the job for me!
> 
> WPTZ-DT 5.1 NBC NORTH POLE NY 123° 33.4 14
> 
> uhf WETK-DT 33.1 PBS BURLINGTON VT 123° 33.4 32
> 
> uhf WCAX-DT 3.1 CBS BURLINGTON VT 123° 33.4 53
> 
> vhf WVNY-DT 22.1 ABC BURLINGTON VT 123° 33.4 13
> 
> uhf WFFF-DT 44.1 FOX BURLINGTON VT 123° 33.4 43
> 
> uhf WCFE-DT 57.1 PBS PLATTSBURGH NY 287° 20.9 38



Most wouldn't consider 33 miles deep fringe. Probably more like medium range.

Glad you are having success though.


----------



## exguitarplayer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Most wouldn't consider 33 miles deep fringe. Probably more like medium range.
> 
> Glad you are having success though.




It is considered deep fringe as this location has many mountains directly in my line of sight. As you stated though, I am having success.


----------



## nugs

Hi All,


Hoping to get some recommendations on an antenna, UHF and VHF. I'm only worried about HD channels. I've checked out several listed in this thread, mainly ones from Radio Shack because that seems to be the way to go and there's one near by, but I'm open to anything.


I picked up the "Silver Surfer" a week or so ago with not much hope because I'm pretty far from most of the towers. The SS picks up one local HD channel fine (WTIU), but no others. So I'm looking for something bigger. I'm not worried about mounting it outside or in the attic (even better) Here is my antennaweb info. Zipcode is 47429 and will point towards Indianapolis.


uhf WTIU-DT 30.1 PBS BLOOMINGTON IN 134° 10.0 14

uhf WTTV-DT 29.1 CW BLOOMINGTON IN 69° 28.7 48

uhf WIPX-DT 63.1 i BLOOMINGTON IN 69° 28.8 27

uhf WCLJ-DT 56.1 TBN BLOOMINGTON IN 69° 28.6 56

uhf WRTV-DT 6.1 ABC INDIANAPOLIS IN 30° 51.4 25

vhf WISH-DT 8.1 CBS INDIANAPOLIS IN 30° 50.7 9



The U-75R looks good but is it strong enough? What about the VU-75XR? Do I need an amplified antenna? Any indoors like the 15-1892 worth it? Any suggestions? I'm trying to get the Indy stations mainly. Thanks


----------



## cpcat

In case this info might be useful to anyone, I've finally figured out what was wrong with my quad. The "new" DAT 75 with the large reflector also has a new PCB balun. By trial and error and alot of hair pulling, I've been able to phase the "old" and "new" DAT 75's by adding around 5.5 inches to the cables on the "old" DAT 75. The signal path inside the PCB on the new one is apparently longer and this would also seem to be confirmed by inspecting the PCB itself.


Obviously, it would have been nice if Televes would have made this info more readily available. They probably should have redesignated the new antenna with a different model number as well IMO.


----------



## cpcat

In case this info might be useful to anyone, I've finally figured out what was wrong with my quad. The "new" DAT 75 with the large reflector also has a new PCB balun. By trial and error and alot of hair pulling, I've been able to phase the "old" and "new" DAT 75's by adding around 5.5 inches to the cables on the "old" DAT 75. The signal path inside the PCB on the new one is apparently longer and this would also seem to be confirmed by inspecting the PCB itself.


Obviously, it would have been nice if Televes would have made this info more readily available. They probably should have redesignated the new antenna with a different model number as well IMO.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nugs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> 
> uhf WTIU-DT 30.1 PBS BLOOMINGTON IN 134° 10.0 14
> 
> uhf WTTV-DT 29.1 CW BLOOMINGTON IN 69° 28.7 48
> 
> uhf WIPX-DT 63.1 i BLOOMINGTON IN 69° 28.8 27
> 
> uhf WCLJ-DT 56.1 TBN BLOOMINGTON IN 69° 28.6 56
> 
> uhf WRTV-DT 6.1 ABC INDIANAPOLIS IN 30° 51.4 25
> 
> vhf WISH-DT 8.1 CBS INDIANAPOLIS IN 30° 50.7 9



At 50 miles, probably a CM 4228 outdoors with a preamp would be your best first step. You could also go with a long range yagi/corner reflector like the XG91 but you won't have much of a chance at WISH on vhf 9 if you go that way. The CM 4228 has decent gain at channel 9 but still may not do it.


If you need to, add a high band vhf antenna like the antennacraft Y10 7-13. You will need to diplex the antennas if that is the case. The CM 7777 preamp will diplex them for you so that would be the preferred preamp to get.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nugs* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I picked up the "Silver Surfer" a week or so ago with not much hope because I'm pretty far from most of the towers. The SS picks up one local HD channel fine (WTIU), but no others. So I'm looking for something bigger. I'm not worried about mounting it outside or in the attic (even better) Here is my antennaweb info. Zipcode is 47429 and will point towards Indianapolis.
> 
> 
> uhf WTIU-DT 30.1 PBS BLOOMINGTON IN 134° 10.0 14
> 
> uhf WTTV-DT 29.1 CW BLOOMINGTON IN 69° 28.7 48
> 
> uhf WIPX-DT 63.1 i BLOOMINGTON IN 69° 28.8 27
> 
> uhf WCLJ-DT 56.1 TBN BLOOMINGTON IN 69° 28.6 56
> 
> uhf WRTV-DT 6.1 ABC INDIANAPOLIS IN 30° 51.4 25
> 
> vhf WISH-DT 8.1 CBS INDIANAPOLIS IN 30° 50.7 9
> 
> 
> The U-75R looks good but is it strong enough? What about the VU-75XR? Do I need an amplified antenna? Any indoors like the 15-1892 worth it? Any suggestions? I'm trying to get the Indy stations mainly. Thanks



The Radio Shack U-75R yagi is a highly directional UHF antenna. It is very unlikely to receive WISH-DT CBS 8 which is broadcasting on VHF 9. You have around a 40 degree spread in azimuth between the two main groups of stations. The PBS station is well off in azimuth from the rest, but at 10 miles, you may be able to pick it up with an antenna aimed at your more distant stations.


The Radio Shack VU-75XR is a candidate as it is a medium range VHF/UHF antenna and should have a wider pickup in azimuth than long range directional antennas. You are going to have to go with an attic or rooftop mount with stations at 50 miles. A rotator is also probably going to be required, especially if you go with a roof mount. Some here will recommend the Winegard and Channel Master antennas as better made than the Radio Shacks.


Plug in a height of 150 or 200 feet into antennaweb under the options link. This is a useful trick to get a more complete list of digital stations, although you may not be able to get all of them.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> cm7777 question.
> 
> 
> is it a good idea to terminate the unused port on the cm7777 preamp. if terminated, what affect should it have on overall system performance.



I've tried it with a 75 ohm terminator on the vhf port and it didn't seem to make any difference even with the internal switch at "separate". With the internal switch this way, the inputs are run through a vhf/uhf internal diplexer so it really shouldn't make a difference. With the switch at "combined", only the uhf/combined input is active so again there wouldn't likely be any effect.


Using 75 ohm terminators on the unused inputs of my Lindsay quad combiner (while using as a dual combiner) actually seemed to make things worse.


----------



## ryancmor17

Here is my antenaweb for 44035.


I was ready to pull the trigger on a RS VU-90 XR, but neither store near me has any in stock so I will take this time to get a second opinion. The spec says up to 70 miles, so ignoring the Akron/Canton stations I should be ok for all others. In my case for ease of installation in the snow I want to temporarily mount this in the attic until spring, will this be overkill at 70 miles in the attic or should I go smaller?


* yellow - uhf WJW-DT 8.1 FOX CLEVELAND OH 101° 18.6 31

* yellow - uhf WEWS-DT 5.1 ABC CLEVELAND OH 99° 18.5 15

* yellow - uhf WQHS-DT 61.1 UNI Cleveland OH 97° 19.3 34

* green - uhf WUAB-DT 43.1 MNT LORAIN OH 98° 18.4 28

* red - vhf WOIO-DT 19.1 CBS SHAKER HEIGHTS OH 96° 19.7 10

* red - vhf WKYC-DT 3.1 NBC CLEVELAND OH 96° 20.0 2

* red - uhf WBNX-DT 55.1 CW AKRON OH 97° 19.7 30

* blue - uhf WEAO-DT 50.1 PBS AKRON OH 139° 30.9 50

* blue - uhf WVPX-DT 59 i AKRON OH TBD 138° 33.7 59

* violet - uhf WDLI-DT 39.1 TBN CANTON OH 139° 33.7 39


----------



## ctdish

Did you try swapping the two wires from the balun to the antenna without using the short length of coax? The balun input polarity will cause a zero or 180 degree phase shift depending on which way it is connected. The ones I had had no polarity markings on them so I had to test them, two at a time looking at signal strength on a spectrum analyzer to see if signals summed from them increased or decreased. After I had determined the proper way to sum signals I marked one lead with a blue terminal lug which always went on the left side of the antenna.

John


----------



## hellsredsled

ok, my parents have a Sony KDF50WE655. On the back there is no dedicated HD antenna input like my Mits TV. Does the HD antenna hook up to the uhf/vhf antenna input and receive over the air HD programing? Help plz..


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hellsredsled* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ok, my parents have a Sony KDF50WE655. On the back there is no dedicated HD antenna input like my Mits TV. Does the HD antenna hook up to the uhf/vhf antenna input and receive over the air HD programing? Help plz..



Yup.


----------



## cpcat

The PCB baluns don't have reversible polarity like a ferrite one. You can simply turn the antenna upside down to reverse the polarity if you need to though.


If you compare the "new" and "old" DAT 75 PCB you can easily see the longer circuit tracing on the board with the new one. They have different part numbers on the board as well.


I did actually try bypassing the PCB baluns with identical CM ferrite baluns. After getting it all phased, the performance was dissappointing. These antennas are obviously designed around the PCB balun.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hellsredsled* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> On the back there is no dedicated HD antenna input like my Mits TV.



does that tv actually say HD antenna on the back of it?


----------



## TotallyPreWired




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> does that tv actually say HD antenna on the back of it?



I have an older Mits, and mine says: *ANT-DTV*. It also has 2 other Antenna inputs for analog. All 3 are Female F-Connectors.

....jc


----------



## Pnb9878

I need to know what i need to do to pick up HDTV channels. I have a standard cable and a standard cable box. i have been looking at the HDTV antenna and the only one that looks like the right one for me is the Trek indoor antenna. Will this work and will it pick up the HDTV channels or is there anything better for my situation.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hellsredsled* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ok, my parents have a Sony KDF50WE655. On the back there is no dedicated HD antenna input like my Mits TV. Does the HD antenna hook up to the uhf/vhf antenna input and receive over the air HD programing? Help plz..



"VHF/UHF" input receives both NTSC (Analog) and ATSC (Digital) on-air broadcasts.


"CABLE" input receives NTSC (Analog for Basic/Extended Cable),

Unencrypted QAM (local HD digital channels, does not require CableCARD)

and Encrypted QAM (all other digital cable channels when CableCARD is used).


----------



## holl_ands

First of all, we need to know your location, at least zipcode and preferably nearby cross streets.

You can help by plugging your location into www.antennaweb.org and cut/paste the results table

into your next post on the "ANTENNAS" thread, which is better equipped to deal with this question:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...13#post9572713 


Be sure to describe how much "stuff" (buildings, trees, hills) there is between you and the desired towers,

whether you want to try for anything other than "yellow & green", and whether an attic or patio is available.


This thread may also be of use:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=611957&page=1


----------



## jpell3

I looking for a good indoor antenna to receive HDTV in Terre Haute, IN and outlaying areas? Does anyone have some good recomindations for me? I have looked at winegard gs 2200, winegard ss 3000 or terk hdtvlp, terk hdtvi, antennas direct db2, zenith silver sensar. I am just wondering what is the best for indoor use. Any recomindations would be appreciated. Thanks


----------



## m_vanmeter

if you will post your ZIP code, forum members can research www.antennaweb.org and give you a better recommendation.


----------



## Boc3phus

Hi All.


I am really a newb at this stuff but I am considering dropping the Locals from my current Satellite provider's HD plan. I would like any and all recommendations for an antenna and accessories that would help me pick up the channels from AntennaWeb below. (These are the results from my exact location.) No tree or two-story homes are in my path.


The antenna would likely go in my attic or be mounted to the Dish mount on my roof. I currently have an extra mount because my current dish could not use the existing mount on my home.



Any and all help is appreciated.


Thanks




* yellow - uhf KXAS-DT 5.1 NBC FORT WORTH TX 179° 41.1 41

* yellow - uhf KUVN-DT 23.1 UNI GARLAND TX 179° 40.8 24

* yellow - uhf KDAF-DT 33.1 CW DALLAS TX 178° 44.0 32

* yellow - uhf KDFW-DT 4.1 FOX DALLAS TX 179° 41.2 35

* yellow - uhf KFWD-DT 52.1 IND FORT WORTH TX 179° 40.9 51

* yellow - uhf KERA-DT 13.1 PBS DALLAS TX 177° 41.5 14

* yellow - uhf KXTX-DT 40.1 TEL DALLAS TX 179° 41.1 40

* yellow - uhf KTVT-DT 11.1 CBS FORT WORTH TX 177° 41.5 19

* yellow - uhf KTXA-DT 21.1 IND FORT WORTH TX 178° 44.0 18

* yellow - uhf KPXD-DT 68.1 i ARLINGTON TX 179° 40.8 42

* yellow - uhf KDTN-DT 2.1 DAY DENTON TX 178° 44.0 43

* green - uhf KSTR-DT 49.1 UNI IRVING TX 178° 44.0 48

* green - vhf WFAA-DT 8.1 ABC DALLAS TX 179° 41.2 9


----------



## jpell3

My zip code is 47807


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boc3phus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am really a newb at this stuff but I am considering dropping the Locals from my current Satellite provider's HD plan. I would like any and all recommendations for an antenna and accessories that would help me pick up the channels from AntennaWeb below. (These are the results from my exact location.) No tree or two-story homes are in my path.



You have 1 digital station at upper VHF in the antennaweb list, WFAA-DT ABC 8 (9). A check of the FCC data for the post analog shutdown in February, 2009 shows KTVT-DT CBS 11 (19) switching it's digital broadcast to VHF 11 in 2009. So you need to get UHF and upper VHF 7 to 13 stations. All the stations are in the same direction at 40 to 44 miles, so a medium to long range directional antenna should do the job.


A Channel Master 4228 would work for the UHF stations, but it may not have the performance for the upper VHF stations at 40+ miles. It also is rather large to go on a dish style mount. On the other hand, you should have rather flat terrain, so a more compact medium range antenna such as the Square Shooter might work, but may also not perform well for upper VHF. Just how large an antenna can your mount setup handle?


----------



## forget_f1

Hi

I hope you guys can help me. This is what I got from antennaweb:

* yellow - uhf WGFL-DT 28.1 CBS HIGH SPRINGS FL 257° 13.4 28

* yellow - uhf WUFT-DT 36.1 PBS GAINESVILLE FL 311° 2.6 36

* yellow - uhf WCJB-DT 20.1 ABC GAINESVILLE FL 198° 10.7 16

* green - uhf WOGX-DT 51.1 FOX OCALA FL 180° 22.7 31

Note the four orientations (180,199,257,311) and the distance, furtherst being 22.7 miles. I am only interested for these digital signals for my samsung SIR-T451 HDTV tuner.


The issue is that I do not want a rotor and another remote since the orientations are spread out. I want all the channels available at the same time. The signal is going to 1 TV. I got two recomendations:

1) Get a DB8 (multidirectional with 100° beam width) antenna and aim 1 array (ie a DB4 antena) at 190° (to get 180° and 198° transmitters) and the other array at 285° (to get 257° and 311°). I am afraid of ghosting and multipath (what is multipath?). Basically two multi-directional antennas in different directiond.

2) Get a DB4, basically one array of DB8, (multidirectional with 90° beam width) and aim it at 210° to get (257°,198° and 180° - all within a 80° beam width) and hope to get 311° from behind (but the back of 210° is 30°) since it is 2.5 miles away. If I cannot receive it then add a small directional antenna to avoid ghosting.


Is choice (2) good? If I were to add the second directional antenna what equipment will I need (e.g. combiner) and more important what distance should I leave between the multidirectional and directional antennas or the two multidirectional if I were to go with choice (1) (vertical and horizontal - I have the liberty to place them in different places).


Thank you for taking the time to read this and I appreciate any help.

Stressed OTA fan.


----------



## texasbrit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You have 1 digital station at upper VHF in the antennaweb list, WFAA-DT ABC 8 (9). A check of the FCC data for the post analog shutdown in February, 2009 shows KTVT-DT CBS 11 (19) switching it's digital broadcast to VHF 11 in 2009. So you need to get UHF and upper VHF 7 to 13 stations. All the stations are in the same direction at 40 to 44 miles, so a medium to long range directional antenna should do the job.
> 
> 
> A Channel Master 4228 would work for the UHF stations, but it may not have the performance for the upper VHF stations at 40+ miles. It also is rather large to go on a dish style mount. On the other hand, you should have rather flat terrain, so a more compact medium range antenna such as the Square Shooter might work, but may also not perform well for upper VHF. Just how large an antenna can your mount setup handle?




You have pretty typical results for DFW at 40 miles; I am just east of Allen at about 42 miles from the transmitter farm at Cedar Hill, slightly worse reception area than you. I have a 4228 and CM7777 preamp, attic mounted on a tripod, and get all the DFW stations OK. The reception with the CM4228 on upper VHF is OK at this range; the CM4228 is basically the "antenna of choice" for DFW. You can forget the Square Shooter. The CM4228 will not fit a dish style mount so if you want to put it outside (preferred) it will have to be mounted on a pole attached to your wall or chimney, or on the roof.


----------



## Boc3phus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You have 1 digital station at upper VHF in the antennaweb list, WFAA-DT ABC 8 (9). A check of the FCC data for the post analog shutdown in February, 2009 shows KTVT-DT CBS 11 (19) switching it's digital broadcast to VHF 11 in 2009. So you need to get UHF and upper VHF 7 to 13 stations. All the stations are in the same direction at 40 to 44 miles, so a medium to long range directional antenna should do the job.
> 
> 
> A Channel Master 4228 would work for the UHF stations, but it may not have the performance for the upper VHF stations at 40+ miles. It also is rather large to go on a dish style mount. On the other hand, you should have rather flat terrain, so a more compact medium range antenna such as the Square Shooter might work, but may also not perform well for upper VHF. Just how large an antenna can your mount setup handle?



afiggatt,


Thanks for the information. After looking the 4228 up, it definately will not work on the Dish mount. Looks like it will need to go in the attic as i really don't want to put it anywhere else outside. I just hope that having the antenna in the attic wont degrade the reception to much and keep me from getting the ABC and eventually the CBS channels.


----------



## Boc3phus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasbrit* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You have pretty typical results for DFW at 40 miles; I am just east of Allen at about 42 miles from the transmitter farm at Cedar Hill, slightly worse reception area than you. I have a 4228 and CM7777 preamp, attic mounted on a tripod, and get all the DFW stations OK. The reception with the CM4228 on upper VHF is OK at this range; the CM4228 is basically the "antenna of choice" for DFW. You can forget the Square Shooter. The CM4228 will not fit a dish style mount so if you want to put it outside (preferred) it will have to be mounted on a pole attached to your wall or chimney, or on the roof.




texasbrit,


Thanks for the response. I agree about the 4228 not working on the dish mount, now that I've seen that antenna. I do like the idea of the tripod in the attic. I'm sure I can find a nice spot to put it. Right now, all i want is to run the wire to the living room but that could change. Can you recommend a splitter for me? I will probably do this in the next couple of months so i have plenty of time to read up on wires, etc and get everything purchased.


Thanks Again.


----------



## RubberToe

Ok,

This is more of an OTA antenna wiring question than anything else. I live in a 30 year old condo building that has an OTA antenna with a building wide distribution syste, Currently there is a 300 ohm screw in wall jack. I need to move this jack to another location, which will require extending the current wire (not sure what kind), and also converting it to the more typical 75 ohm cable jack to run to my ATSC tuner. There are currently some electronics behind my wall jack, not sure what they do.


I'm in Pasadena, Ca. and I have been calling all the local antenna places to no avail. Everyone is getting out of that business. Does anyone have a referral to someone who could do this work, or even a link to a wiring diagram that would allow my current electrician to do it?


Thanks,

Robert


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rnowicki* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ok,
> 
> This is more of an OTA antenna wiring question than anything else. I live in a 30 year old condo building that has an OTA antenna with a building wide distribution syste, Currently there is a 300 ohm screw in wall jack. I need to move this jack to another location, which will require extending the current wire (not sure what kind), and also converting it to the more typical 75 ohm cable jack to run to my ATSC tuner. There are currently some electronics behind my wall jack, not sure what they do.
> 
> 
> I'm in Pasadena, Ca. and I have been calling all the local antenna places to no avail. Everyone is getting out of that business. Does anyone have a referral to someone who could do this work, or even a link to a wiring diagram that would allow my current electrician to do it?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Robert



Sounds like all you need is a 300-to-75 OHM BALUN TRANSFORMER:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 
http://shop3.outpost.com/%7BvUP1hfcl...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG 


You connect the two leads of the BALUN TRANSFORMER to your existing 300-ohm wall connector

and then run RG-59 or RG-6 coax cable (Fry's, R-S, Home Depot) to your TV.


Actually MOVING the antique wall mount connector could get messy when the fragile old wiring is disturbed.

And the "electronics" is probably a power divider network, which probably has a divide ratio other than a simple 2:1.....


----------



## RubberToe




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sounds like all you need is a 300-to-75 OHM BALUN TRANSFORMER:
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search
> http://shop3.outpost.com/%7BvUP1hfcl...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG
> 
> 
> You connect the two leads of the BALUN TRANSFORMER to your existing 300-ohm wall connector
> 
> and then run RG-59 or RG-6 coax cable to your TV.
> 
> 
> Actually MOVING the antique wall mount connector could get messy when the fragile old wiring is disturbed.
> 
> And the "electronics" is probably a power divider network, which probably has a divide ratio other than a simple 2:1.....



Holl-ands,

This is quite funny, I actually just bought 3 of those from Radio Shack for when I help others in the building connect to their new HDTV's.


There are 2 reasons why my installation isn't that simple. I need to move the wall jack about 8 feet away from where it is now. The cable inside the wall isnt long enough so it will need to be spliced with about 8 feet added. Since I'm already doing that, I figured I might as well make the end of it a 75 ohm connector right on the wall for a clean look.


I suppose I could do what you suggested and then run the RG-59 in the wall to the back of a 75 ohm jack. The front of the jack would then look the same as it would in my proposed setup, except that there is that 300-75 ohm transformer buried behind drywall. Don't know if that presents any signal integrity problems or not.


Robert


----------



## muchium

Hi all, I'm new to this as well.

I've been reading all the information here and I would appreciate some advice.


I live in Phoenix, AZ 85028. Intersection is Tatum & Shea, about 18 miles from the signal towers.


These are the local stations given to me by AntennaWeb


lt green - uhf KTVP-LD 56 HTN PHOENIX AZ TBD 96° 20.8 56

red - vhf KTVK 3 IND PHOENIX AZ 183° 18.1 3

red - vhf KPHO 5 CBS PHOENIX AZ 182° 18.0 5

blue - vhf KPNX 12 NBC MESA AZ 183° 18.1 12

blue - vhf KSAZ 10 FOX PHOENIX AZ 183° 18.0 10

blue - vhf KAET 8 PBS PHOENIX AZ 183° 18.1 8

violet - uhf KTVW 33 UNI PHOENIX AZ 183° 18.1 33

violet - uhf KNXV 15 ABC PHOENIX AZ 183° 18.1 15

violet - uhf KUTP 45 MNT PHOENIX AZ 182° 18.0 45

violet - uhf KPPX 51 i TOLLESON AZ 182° 18.0 51


The website recommended I get a medium to large directional antenna with a pre amp.


I currently have several analog tv sets and would like to cancel my basic cox cable subscription.

I also have a dish with a digital tuner box for receiving international channels.

I would like to wire the whole house using the signal from the antenna.

I plan to upgrade to HDTV in the near future, as soon as the antenna is setup.


I've decided on the *42XG* antenna from Antennas Direct.


Will this antenna be sufficient for me? Can I wire my house from this antenna?

I was planning to mount the antenna on the side of the house, but the neighbor's house blocks line of sight. I can also mount this on my chimney, which should give me a better LOS but there is a small hill in the way.


Thanks in advance for all your advice.


----------



## Mike Maloney

Okay, update time...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You typically can't turn the amplifier off with these cheap antennas with the built-in amps. Turning the amp off shuts off the signal path from the antenna. Turn the amp on and you may overload the front end and/or make your multipath problems a lot worse. If you live close to the broadcast towers, you should *NOT* buy an antenna with a built-in amp.
> 
> 
> In Chicago, you have the problem of getting the low VHF station while the other digital stations are currently at UHF. Get an non-amplified antenna with rabbit ears for VHF and either a UHF loop or Silver Sensor UHF antenna. Hate to recommend a Terk, but give the Terk HDTVi (NOT the HDTVa!!!!) a shot.



So, I picked up the Terk HDTVi per your suggestion. I can't get any channels with this one, while I was able to at least get CBS-HD with the other antenna. I tried plugging it into the TV F connector and the Antenna F connector, no luck with either one.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> - Also connect the apartment building cable to the F connector labeled Satellite and your TV antenna to the TV F connector, both on the back of the 811. Then do a scan for local channels. John



My receiver can't pick up a signal if I connect the building cable to the F connector labeled satellite. It's supposed to go into the TV F connector. That is the only way to get a satellite picture.


So, I tried a new antenna, and had even worse results. So, I'm still 1 for about 15 channels, and I still have no idea what I'm doing wrong.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *muchium* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi all, I'm new to this as well.
> 
> I've been reading all the information here and I would appreciate some advice.
> 
> 
> I live in Phoenix, AZ 85028. Intersection is Tatum & Shea, about 18 miles from the signal towers.
> 
> 
> These are the local stations given to me by AntennaWeb
> 
> 
> lt green - uhf KTVP-LD 56 HTN PHOENIX AZ TBD 96° 20.8 56
> 
> red - vhf KTVK 3 IND PHOENIX AZ 183° 18.1 3
> 
> red - vhf KPHO 5 CBS PHOENIX AZ 182° 18.0 5
> 
> blue - vhf KPNX 12 NBC MESA AZ 183° 18.1 12
> 
> blue - vhf KSAZ 10 FOX PHOENIX AZ 183° 18.0 10
> 
> blue - vhf KAET 8 PBS PHOENIX AZ 183° 18.1 8
> 
> violet - uhf KTVW 33 UNI PHOENIX AZ 183° 18.1 33
> 
> violet - uhf KNXV 15 ABC PHOENIX AZ 183° 18.1 15
> 
> violet - uhf KUTP 45 MNT PHOENIX AZ 182° 18.0 45
> 
> violet - uhf KPPX 51 i TOLLESON AZ 182° 18.0 51
> 
> 
> The website recommended I get a medium to large directional antenna with a pre amp.
> 
> 
> I currently have several analog tv sets and would like to cancel my basic cox cable subscription.
> 
> I also have a dish with a digital tuner box for receiving international channels.
> 
> I would like to wire the whole house using the signal from the antenna.
> 
> I plan to upgrade to HDTV in the near future, as soon as the antenna is setup.
> 
> 
> I've decided on the *42XG* antenna from Antennas Direct.
> 
> 
> Will this antenna be sufficient for me? Can I wire my house from this antenna?
> 
> I was planning to mount the antenna on the side of the house, but the neighbor's house blocks line of sight. I can also mount this on my chimney, which should give me a better LOS but there is a small hill in the way.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for all your advice.



OUCH---Took a quick look using GoogleEarth....you have a big hill blocking Phoenix reception.

LOS to South Mtn Towers goes right through that very high peak just South of you.

It's 1000-ft higher and will block nearly all signals.


However, my guess is that you have a good chance for a bounce off

Praying Monk/Camelback Mtn to the East of Tatum Blvd to get Phoenix DTV stations

(and/or bounce off nearby mountains to NE).
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/defaul...=Show+Stations 


Since www.antennaweb.org is notoriously conservative,

I punched in 200-ft antenna height and found fol. for DTV:


lt green - uhf KTVP-LD 56 HTN PHOENIX AZ TBD 96° 20.8 56

red - uhf KUAT-DT 6.1 PBS TUCSON AZ 125° 109.3 30

blue - uhf KMSB-DT 11.1 FOX TUCSON AZ 125° 109.3 25

blue - uhf KTTU-DT 18.1 MNT TUCSON AZ 125° 109.3 19

blue - uhf KGUN-DT 9.1 ABC TUCSON AZ 126° 109.2 35

violet - uhf KUVE-DT 46.1 UNI GREEN VALLEY AZ 126° 109.2 47

violet - uhf KOLD-DT 13.1 CBS TUCSON AZ 125° 109.3 32


So you may have a shot at Tucson DTV stations as well.


Since you're gonna need as much help as possible--higher is better.

I would suggest higher gain CM-4228 (which also has gain in upper-VHF), a rotator

and the CM-7777 Preamp---which has more than enough gain to drive multiple RF Splitters.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rnowicki* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Holl-ands,
> 
> This is quite funny, I actually just bought 3 of those from Radio Shack for when I help others in the building connect to their new HDTV's.
> 
> 
> There are 2 reasons why my installation isn't that simple. I need to move the wall jack about 8 feet away from where it is now. The cable inside the wall isnt long enough so it will need to be spliced with about 8 feet added. Since I'm already doing that, I figured I might as well make the end of it a 75 ohm connector right on the wall for a clean look.
> 
> 
> I suppose I could do what you suggested and then run the RG-59 in the wall to the back of a 75 ohm jack. The front of the jack would then look the same as it would in my proposed setup, except that there is that 300-75 ohm transformer buried behind drywall. Don't know if that presents any signal integrity problems or not.
> 
> 
> Robert



Can you identify the type of cable feeding the wallplate and whether is a simple dead-end drop,

or whether it's just one stop in a daisy-chain?


If it's a dead-end coax feed, the "electrical stuff" should be just a balun and maybe all you need to do is cut and crimp

on a F-type connector so you can attach an extender cable via female-female in-line connector.

Then you can buy a new wallplate with a coax connector....or simpy poke the cable through a simple hole-in-one wallplate.

I've seen them at our local Home Depot and R-S.


If it's a dead-end twin-lead (300-ohm) cable, I would just solder the leads, wrap with electrical tape,

bury the balun in the wall and attach an extension coax.

I would try to mount the balun to keep the twin-leads away from nearby objects as much as possible....


If it's a daisy chain, ya gotta know what kind of divider network was used...probably time for a pro...


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mike Maloney* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think I suck at hooking up my antenna. Long story short, my apartment building has Dish Network running through the building, but it can currently only handle MPEG2, not MPEG4, so while I can get ESPNHD, TNTHD, etc., I can't get any of my local HD channels. So...I picked up an indoor antenna (RCA ANT1250). I looked up a list of antennas on antennaweb (60610). Now, since I live in downtown Chicago, there are a number of antennas in the vicinity, so I would assume I would be able to pick up signals.
> 
> 
> Well, after some fiddling around, I've managed to get my Dish receiver (Model 811) to pick up CBS-HD. However, I can't for the life of me get anything resembling signal strength from any other channel. I figure with three antennas within a mile of my building, I have to be doing something wrong.
> 
> 
> My antenna has the option to be amplified. I was told this could cause overload, so I have been trying to pick up the signals without the amplification (Well, I've tried it both ways, neither works). Now, since our whole building is supplied by Dish, I have to use the regular cable coax input into the receiver, since that's how everything is hooked up. So I have my satellite input running through the antenna, and then the antenna hooks up to the receiver. I'm just going based on the antenna's instructions. Should I be putting the antenna into my receiver's 'antenna' input, and if so, what does that do for me? What else could I be doing wrong? I have to be screwing up somewhere in order to not get any signal strength from any of the digital channels out there.
> 
> 
> Any help would be appreciated.



First of all, you need to start with an UNAMPLIFIED antenna....

even when in the lowest power mode, it can still overload.


Just for kicks, take a piece of wire that is about a foot long and somehow (paper clip?)

attach it to the center pin on the coax.

Surely you should be able to receive some stations.....

If not, perhaps it's SAT Receiver problem--or you've got very serious multipath...


Next step would be to try an unamplified indoor antenna that can reject multipath, such as the Silver Sensor (search Amazon.com for best price).


----------



## greywolf

You need to check with the condo maintenance people. Doing something wrong can cut off service to other units. Coax systems use taps instead of splitters for example. They also need to know which units are connected to keep the system balanced.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *forget_f1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> I hope you guys can help me. This is what I got from antennaweb:
> 
> * yellow - uhf WGFL-DT 28.1 CBS HIGH SPRINGS FL 257° 13.4 28
> 
> * yellow - uhf WUFT-DT 36.1 PBS GAINESVILLE FL 311° 2.6 36
> 
> * yellow - uhf WCJB-DT 20.1 ABC GAINESVILLE FL 198° 10.7 16
> 
> * green - uhf WOGX-DT 51.1 FOX OCALA FL 180° 22.7 31
> 
> 
> The issue is that I do not want a rotor and another remote since the orientations are spread out. I want all the channels available at the same time.



I'd start with 2 four bay antennas, either the DB4 or 4221. Add them together with a splitter backwards and try it.


Multipath is a fancy name for ghosting. Too much ghosting and the DTV receiver won't decode the signal.


----------



## forget_f1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'd start with 2 four bay antennas, either the DB4 or 4221. Add them together with a splitter backwards and try it.
> 
> 
> Multipath is a fancy name for ghosting. Too much ghosting and the DTV receiver won't decode the signal.



Thanks for help. After multiple discussions I've decided to go with a DB4 to pick up the three transpoders at (180,198,257) and hope to get the 311 transponder on the backside since it is only 2.5 miles away. If not, then I can add a small directional antenna like the SR-15 to avoid multipath. The question is should I get the DB4 for $55 or the DB8 (basically 2 DB4) for $85.


----------



## mamaduce

Currently I have a 2-bow antenna installed by Directv. It picks up all my local ota channels except for my local nbc and fox. I can pick up these channels if I connect the antenna cable directly to the tv, but not through the receiver. What other type of outdoor antenna can you recommend to replace the 2-bow antenna. antennaweb suggests a medium directional antenna. My zip is 76542. Any suggestions. Looking for antenna that is not to large.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *forget_f1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> I hope you guys can help me. This is what I got from antennaweb:
> 
> * yellow - uhf WGFL-DT 28.1 CBS HIGH SPRINGS FL 257° 13.4 28
> 
> * yellow - uhf WUFT-DT 36.1 PBS GAINESVILLE FL 311° 2.6 36
> 
> * yellow - uhf WCJB-DT 20.1 ABC GAINESVILLE FL 198° 10.7 16
> 
> * green - uhf WOGX-DT 51.1 FOX OCALA FL 180° 22.7 31
> 
> Note the four orientations (180,199,257,311) and the distance, furtherst being 22.7 miles. I am only interested for these digital signals for my samsung SIR-T451 HDTV tuner.
> 
> 
> The issue is that I do not want a rotor and another remote since the orientations are spread out. I want all the channels available at the same time. The signal is going to 1 TV. I got two recomendations:
> 
> 1) Get a DB8 (multidirectional with 100° beam width) antenna and aim 1 array (ie a DB4 antena) at 190° (to get 180° and 198° transmitters) and the other array at 285° (to get 257° and 311°). I am afraid of ghosting and multipath (what is multipath?). Basically two multi-directional antennas in different directiond.
> 
> 2) Get a DB4, basically one array of DB8, (multidirectional with 90° beam width) and aim it at 210° to get (257°,198° and 180° - all within a 80° beam width) and hope to get 311° from behind (but the back of 210° is 30°) since it is 2.5 miles away. If I cannot receive it then add a small directional antenna to avoid ghosting.



I would try a single DB4 or the Channel Master 4221 4 Bay first before getting into the complexity of two antennas. You are pretty close to the broadcast towers, so you may well be able to get them all without a rotator.


The flat panel bowtie design is able to pick up stations over a wide range in azimuth. I have a CM 4221 with a CM 7777 pre-amp in my attic aimed just south of the Baltimore stations at around 70 degrees in azimuth. I get stations at the following azimuths and ranges using a Samsung SIR-T451 tuner:

47 deg, 16 miles - 1 station

61 deg, 43 miles - 6 stations (Baltimore)

112 to 116 deg, 16 miles, 8 stations (Washington DC)

190 deg, 29 miles, 1 station (subject to dropouts but it is not a very high power station)

307 deg, 46 miles, 1 station on digital VHF 12

321 deg, 54 miles, 1 station


Go with the single 4 Bay bowtie antenna first. Although I would suggest you get the less expensive CM 4221 over the DB4, but if you have ordered the DB4, go for it.


----------



## texasbrit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> OUCH---Took a quick look using GoogleEarth....you have a big hill blocking Phoenix reception.
> 
> LOS to South Mtn Towers goes right through that very high peak just South of you.
> 
> It's 1000-ft higher and will block nearly all signals.
> 
> 
> However, my guess is that you have a good chance for a bounce off
> 
> Praying Monk/Camelback Mtn to the East of Tatum Blvd to get Phoenix DTV stations
> 
> (and/or bounce off nearby mountains to NE).
> http://www.2150.com/broadcast/defaul...=Show+Stations
> 
> 
> Since www.antennaweb.org is notoriously conservative,
> 
> I punched in 200-ft antenna height and found fol. for DTV:
> 
> 
> lt green - uhf KTVP-LD 56 HTN PHOENIX AZ TBD 96° 20.8 56
> 
> red - uhf KUAT-DT 6.1 PBS TUCSON AZ 125° 109.3 30
> 
> blue - uhf KMSB-DT 11.1 FOX TUCSON AZ 125° 109.3 25
> 
> blue - uhf KTTU-DT 18.1 MNT TUCSON AZ 125° 109.3 19
> 
> blue - uhf KGUN-DT 9.1 ABC TUCSON AZ 126° 109.2 35
> 
> violet - uhf KUVE-DT 46.1 UNI GREEN VALLEY AZ 126° 109.2 47
> 
> violet - uhf KOLD-DT 13.1 CBS TUCSON AZ 125° 109.3 32
> 
> 
> So you may have a shot at Tucson DTV stations as well.
> 
> 
> Since you're gonna need as much help as possible--higher is better.
> 
> I would suggest higher gain CM-4228 (which also has gain in upper-VHF), a rotator
> 
> and the CM-7777 Preamp---which has more than enough gain to drive multiple RF Splitters.



I think the OP mentioned analog also, the CM4228 will not receive the VHF-lo band analog stations.


----------



## mamaduce

Have you ever heard of an antenna with rotor "Mitzu CRA-5000"? Saw one of these on ebay and reviews seems ok.


----------



## Rick0725

thought your issue looked familiar.


Nurse, whispering: "Wake up... wake up sir... c'mon, time to wake up..."


"UUuuuuuhhhhh... where am I?"


"You're in the hospital. You've had a nasty accident."


"What the hell is that thing?"


"That's our new Mitzu CRA-5000 VHF/UHF Physiotherapeutic Back-Cracker that you'll be strapped onto for the next several years."


"UUuuuuuhhhhh..."


The Mitzu CRA-5000 VHF/UHF is in the same league as the other antenna beauties at ebay.


There's a sucker born every minute!


all funniness aside. If you were shopping around and an antenna with rotor caught your eye, why would you not consider a proven antenna system with rotor. Just a little more money and a maybe more challenging to install.


But at the same time, the Mitzu CRA-5000 can be an interesting concept with potential.


We are all curious how it works. try one and let us know.


Maybe borrow one from a friend.


----------



## schnurmac

Im not able to pick up some of my local channels now that I installed my ANT out side.

It worked for all channels indoors but was hit or miss with pict. freeze at night only.

I used diplexers so I didn't have to run more coax. Does it degrade the signal when combining both on same coax? I have DTV and am using a RS amplified HD ant Model 15-2186. Maybe its me but DTV and HD local channels that I do get don'tlook as good.

Can anyone help me? Or shoul I have spent my $50.00 on a better one.
















zip 23701


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasbrit* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think the OP mentioned analog also, the CM4228 will not receive the VHF-lo band analog stations.



Kerry Cozad measured +2 dBd gain for CH2, 4 and 6 on a real CM4228....

Or about what a folded dipole provides after you account for some "ground bounce gain" in Cozad's measurements.


I would try it and see what diffracts over (and around) that hill--which is easier for VHF--after all towers are only 18 miles away.


It would be of interest to know what kind of antenna is currently used for CH6 and below.....

And how well it works...


And if it doesn't work, he can use a separate (existing?) VHF antenna with a UHF/VHF Hybrid Combiner for the CM4228.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *schnurmac* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Im not able to pick up some of my local channels now that I installed my ANT out side.
> 
> It worked for all channels indoors but was hit or miss with pict. freeze at night only.
> 
> I used diplexers so I didn't have to run more coax. Does it degrade the signal when combining both on same coax? I have DTV and am using a RS amplified HD ant Model 15-2186. Maybe its me but DTV and HD local channels that I do get don'tlook as good.
> 
> Can anyone help me? Or should I have spent my $50.00 on a better one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zip 23701



The R-S 15-2186 is an amplified antenna, which requires 9 VDC from it's Power Inserter

(did you locate it BETWEEN the antenna and Diplexer).


SAT Receiver provides much higher voltage levels and signaling to the attached dish via SAT coax cables.

You have to be very careful to make sure that the right voltage goes only to each unit.

SAT RF Splitters have DC PASS on one or both ports, whereas conventional RF Splitters block DC.


And MPEG-4 HD Receivers are more difficult to share the same coax...suggest you research in D* forum.


----------



## forget_f1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would try a single DB4 or the Channel Master 4221 4 Bay first before getting into the complexity of two antennas. You are pretty close to the broadcast towers, so you may well be able to get them all without a rotator.
> 
> 
> The flat panel bowtie design is able to pick up stations over a wide range in azimuth. I have a CM 4221 with a CM 7777 pre-amp in my attic aimed just south of the Baltimore stations at around 70 degrees in azimuth. I get stations at the following azimuths and ranges using a Samsung SIR-T451 tuner:
> 
> 47 deg, 16 miles - 1 station
> 
> 61 deg, 43 miles - 6 stations (Baltimore)
> 
> 112 to 116 deg, 16 miles, 8 stations (Washington DC)
> 
> 190 deg, 29 miles, 1 station (subject to dropouts but it is not a very high power station)
> 
> 307 deg, 46 miles, 1 station on digital VHF 12
> 
> 321 deg, 54 miles, 1 station
> 
> 
> Go with the single 4 Bay bowtie antenna first. Although I would suggest you get the less expensive CM 4221 over the DB4, but if you have ordered the DB4, go for it.



Thanks, I think I'll go with the DB4 because in the specifications I saw on a site (solidsignal.com) it says that the DB4 has a 90° beam width.


----------



## Jhamps10

HELP!!!!!! Newbie here


I'm say 70+ miles from all stations, plus I have different stations from different markets, so I know a rotor, and mostlikely an amp will be required. I'm real confused here. my zip is 62839. I know I'll need it to be mounted outside, and maybe a lot taller than my house (one story ranch home). I did the height of 200 feet and here's what it showed:


yellow - vhf WPXS 13 IND MOUNT VERNON IL 251° 25.9 13

yellow - uhf WUSI 16 PBS Olney IL 60° 21.7 16

* yellow - uhf WUSI-DT 16.1 PBS OLNEY IL 60° 21.7 19

green - uhf WNOI-LP 24 FMN FLORA IL 97° 6.5 24

blue - uhf WVUT 22 PBS VINCENNES IN 93° 53.7 22

blue - vhf WTVW 7 FOX EVANSVILLE IN 128° 75.1 7

blue - uhf WEIL-LP 54 CW EFFINGHAM IL 359° 37.8 54

blue - vhf WTWO 2 NBC TERRE HAUTE IN 57° 70.2 2

blue - vhf WTHI 10 CBS TERRE HAUTE IN 57° 70.4 10

blue - uhf WEHT 25 ABC EVANSVILLE IN 140° 74.4 25

blue - uhf WFIE 14 NBC EVANSVILLE IN 138° 75.1 14

blue - vhf WSIU 8 PBS CARBONDALE IL 228° 57.4 8

violet - vhf WNIN 9 PBS EVANSVILLE IN 127° 80.8 9

violet - uhf WEVV 44 CBS EVANSVILLE IN 138° 74.1 44

violet - vhf WSIL 3 ABC HARRISBURG IL 198° 76.4 3

violet - uhf WFXW 38 FOX TERRE HAUTE IN 57° 69.5 38


A LOT of these stations have DT signals, but are not at full power yet btw except for WTHI and why they aren't there besides than antennaweb is too conservative. I know that for a fact because my grandma lives about 80 miles east of st. louis and can pick up all but 1 of the STL stations pretty clearly on analog on her antenna, I have no clue what it is as it was there when she moved in some 15 years ago, but it is set up maybe 5 feet at most above her house on a tower and antenna web shows her not getting ANY stl stations.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jhamps10* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm say 70+ miles from all stations, plus I have different stations from different markets, so I know a rotor, and mostlikely an amp will be required. I'm real confused here. my zip is 62839. I know I'll need it to be mounted outside, and maybe a lot taller than my house (one story ranch home). I did the height of 200 feet and here's what it showed:...



One key question is whether all the digital stations are on UHF or not. Plugging in a height of 1200' just to get a complete list of the digital stations around you (you are not likely to get all those stations, but just for the list), I see all but one station are currently on UHF. The one exception is WINN-DT PBS 9 on upper VHF 12 in Evansville, IN and that is 81 miles from your zip code. WTHI-DT CBS 10 is currently broadcasting on VHF 24 at not very high power, but will be switching it's digital signal to VHF 10 in 2009.


So for now, you need a long range UHF antenna for the digital stations. If you are willing to take a gamble, get a AntennasDirect 91XG UHF antenna, a CM 7777 pre-amp, a rotator, and put up a tall mast on the roof. You should put up a mast sturdy and long enough to have room to add a VHF or upper VHF antenna in 2009. You should check the local threads for each city to find out about the status of each station. Entering the station call letters into wikepedia is also useful for station info and provides a shortcut to the FCC database ( http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html ). Stacking two 91XGs may be something you may have to look into.


You should also look into getting the best ATSC tuner available to increase your odds of success. The new Samsung DTB-H260F is getting good marks for locking onto weak signals and handling multi-path problems.


Good luck. You will need it!


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *forget_f1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks, I think I'll go with the DB4 because in the specifications I saw on a site (solidsignal.com) it says that the DB4 has a 90° beam width.



I don't see any beamwidth specs on www.antennasdirect.com ---solidsignal info is an obvious typo...

BTW: Antennas Direct uses dBi (which is 2.15 dB inflated from usual dBd, re to dipole)

and appears to be the MAX gain for the BEST channel, rather than average gain used by C-M and W-G.


Here you can compare CM-4221 and DB-4's beamwidth.

They are both about 60 to 50 degrees, decreasing with frequency.

(Beamwidth is total azimuthal angle from -3 dB on either side of peak gain):
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## Rick0725

solid signal is really pushing the antennas direct antennas lately..anything to get a sale and meet sales quota it appears...even through their technical staff suggestions.


you can buy 2 cm4221's for the price of the db4. The cm4221's perform better too.


He should try the Mitzu CRA-5000 VHF/UHF


----------



## Mustang1

Hi, im 21 miles away from the main antennas. Is this any good?

http://shop3.outpost.com/%7BIqrYZz4z...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG 


Or do you recommend another brand. thnx


I'm located in the San Fernando valley, Los Angeles County area.


----------



## Jhamps10




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> One key question is whether all the digital stations are on UHF or not. Plugging in a height of 1200' just to get a complete list of the digital stations around you (you are not likely to get all those stations, but just for the list), I see all but one station are currently on UHF. The one exception is WINN-DT PBS 9 on upper VHF 12 in Evansville, IN and that is 81 miles from your zip code. WTHI-DT CBS 10 is currently broadcasting on VHF 24 at not very high power, but will be switching it's digital signal to VHF 10 in 2009.
> 
> 
> So for now, you need a long range UHF antenna for the digital stations. If you are willing to take a gamble, get a AntennasDirect 91XG UHF antenna, a CM 7777 pre-amp, a rotator, and put up a tall mast on the roof. You should put up a mast sturdy and long enough to have room to add a VHF or upper VHF antenna in 2009. You should check the local threads for each city to find out about the status of each station. Entering the station call letters into wikepedia is also useful for station info and provides a shortcut to the FCC database ( http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html ). Stacking two 91XGs may be something you may have to look into.
> 
> 
> You should also look into getting the best ATSC tuner available to increase your odds of success. The new Samsung DTB-H260F is getting good marks for locking onto weak signals and handling multi-path problems.
> 
> 
> Good luck. You will need it!




what about an vhf/uhf long range combo antenna such as the VU-190 from radio shack? I've noticed that a lot of people around here has that kind of antenna and also what height above the roof should I put this? I don't want it to be too tall, due to being susptible to high winds which are possible around here during severe storms.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jhamps10* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> what about an vhf/uhf long range combo antenna such as the VU-190 from radio shack? I've noticed that a lot of people around here has that kind of antenna and also what height above the roof should I put this? I don't want it to be too tall, due to being susptible to high winds which are possible around here during severe storms.



For starters, the Radio Shack VU-190XR is a very large antenna. But many here would recommend the Winegard, Channel Masters, and AntennasDirect conventional VHF/UHF antennas over the Radio Shacks. I don't see any detailed specs for dB gain performance on the antennas at Radio Shack's website. Winegard, Channel Master, and AntennasDirect do provide those basic specs.


The 91XG gets high marks here for long range UHF performance as does the CM 4228. The 91XG is much lighter than the CM 4228, so that is why a number of people use it. Have you look at the charts at this site - http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html? Given where you are, you will need all the gain you can get. One option is to get the 91XG and combine that at the outset with a VHF only antenna.


Perhaps you can get several others with similar very long range setups to weigh in here.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jhamps10* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> HELP!!!!!! Newbie here
> 
> 
> I'm say 70+ miles from all stations, plus I have different stations from different markets, so I know a rotor, and mostlikely an amp will be required. I'm real confused here. my zip is 62839. I know I'll need it to be mounted outside, and maybe a lot taller than my house (one story ranch home). I did the height of 200 feet and here's what it showed:
> 
> 
> .



A long range yagi/corner reflector like the antennasdirect xg91 on a rotator and a vhf antenna fixed below it with a CM 7777 preamp would be a start. You may need to consider doing a stack of dual xg91's at that distance. A combo vhf/uhf antenna will not perform as well as separates and you will need all the performance you can get. Here's a pic of one of my prior setups. UHF is on top, high band vhf (7-13) is below.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mustang1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi, im 21 miles away from the main antennas. Is this any good?
> 
> http://shop3.outpost.com/%7BIqrYZz4z...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG
> 
> 
> Or do you recommend another brand. thnx
> 
> 
> I'm located in the San Fernando valley, Los Angeles County area.



Small amplified antennas such as that are not likely to work very well at 21 miles. Get a real antenna. The broadcast towers for LA are located way up there on Mt. Wilson and, IIRC, the digital stations are all currently at UHF. If you are looking for an interim solution and have a window or upper floor with a clear view of the mountains to the north, try a Silver Sensor UHF antenna. Circuit City may have one under the Philips brand name for $25, model # PHDTV1.


If you are looking for a more permanent attic or roof mounted setup, the Channel Master (CM) 4221 4 Bay bowtie, CM 4228 8 Bay, or any number of medium range VHF/UHF antennas should do the job.


----------



## goldrich

Jhamps10,


You posted your need for assistance at the Indy/Terre Haute site, since Terre Haute is one of your closest TV markets (70-75 miles). Unfortunately, with the slight exception of MAYBE receiving WTHI-DT 24, you'll have to look at some other potential stations.


You do have several nearby PBS stations (UHF) to choose from, so at least one of those should be rather easy to receive. IMHO, after assessing other stations in your area, here are your best bets for the four main networks:


WSIL-DT 34 (3-1) ABC, Harrisburg, IL 200 degrees @ 76 miles (1000 kW, non-directional)

WEVV-DT 45 (44-1) CBS, Evansville, IN 136 degrees @ 75 miles (500 kW, non-directional)

WFIE-DT 46 (14-1) NBC, Evansville, IN 135 degrees @ 76 miles (250 kW, non-directional, best tower height @1017 ft. [height above average terrain])


Within a few weeks (fingers crossed), this station will be going full power with 1000 kW @ 896 ft. (HAAT). It will be using a directional antenna, but it doesn't cut the signal too much in your direction................

WTVW-DT 28 (7-1) Fox, Evansville, IN 126 degrees @ 76 miles


As mentioned above by cpcat and afiggatt, you are going to need a very good high gain antenna with a preamp and as much height as possible. I would recommend a stack, like in the picture from cpcat. I have a very similar setup (for receiving distant stations outside of Indianapolis) with the Triax Unix 100 antenna (pic attached). This antenna is very similar to the XG91 (also listed as the 91XG).


All of the stations I listed above will remain on UHF channels after Feb. 2009, so unless you are interested in receiving some VHF stations, like WNIN-DT, Evansville or WTHI-DT, Terre Haute after Feb. 2009, I'm not sure that you will need a VHF antenna. That depends on what stations you are interested in and what your reception capabilities are like.


Steve


----------



## justechn

I have been reading a lot of posts and I have gotten a lot of good information. I was hoping I could confirm my choices with you before I make a final decision. Here is the list from AntennaWeb. The coordinates of my house are:

Lat: 40.087787

Lon: -111.620134


* yellow - uhf KUEN-DT 9.1 PBS OGDEN UT 307° 47.3 36

* yellow - uhf KPNZ-DT 24 IND OGDEN UT TBD 309° 50.0 24

* yellow - uhf KTVX-DT 4.1 ABC SALT LAKE CITY UT 309° 50.0 40

* yellow - uhf KUED-DT 7.1 PBS SALT LAKE CITY UT 309° 50.0 42

* yellow - uhf KUCW-DT 30.1 CW OGDEN UT 309° 50.0 48

* yellow - uhf KUPX-DT 16.1 i PROVO UT 309° 49.6 29

* yellow - uhf KUTV-DT 2.1 CBS SALT LAKE CITY UT 309° 45.8 34

* yellow - uhf KJZZ-DT 14.1 MNT SALT LAKE CITY UT 309° 50.0 46

* yellow - uhf KBYU-DT 44.1 PBS PROVO UT 309° 50.0 44

* yellow - uhf KSL-DT 5.1 NBC SALT LAKE CITY UT 309° 50.0 38

* blue - uhf KSTU-DT 13.1 FOX SALT LAKE CITY UT 309° 50.0 28


It says I only need the smallest of MultiDirectional antennas, but I am about 50 miles from the nearest tower. I would like to get FOX but I would probably need an outdoor or attic antenna and that is not an option.


I was looking at the Philips PHDTV3 Indoor HDTV UHF/VHF antenna, but I am really not interested in VHF because all the digital channels are in the UHF band. Is this the best antenna? Is there a better UHF only antenna? When it says it is powered is that for both UHF and VHF?


If you need more info please let me know.


Thanks

Ryan


----------



## RubberToe




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If it's a dead-end coax feed, the "electrical stuff" should be just a balun and maybe all you need to do is cut and crimp
> 
> on a F-type connector so you can attach an extender cable via female-female in-line connector.
> 
> Then you can buy a new wallplate with a coax connector....or simpy poke the cable through a simple hole-in-one wallplate.
> 
> I've seen them at our local Home Depot and R-S.



This is exactly the situation, and it is also just what we are planning on doing.


Thanks,

Robert


----------



## shakin cliches

Repost:

Hi everyone. I would love some insight on what kind of antenna to get.


Here are my numbers:

* red - uhf WLEX-DT 18.1 NBC LEXINGTON KY 122° 17.4 39

* red - vhf WKYT-DT 27.1 CBS LEXINGTON KY 122° 16.8 13

* red - vhf WDKY-DT 56.1 FOX DANVILLE KY 138° 27.0 4

* red - uhf WKON-DT 52.1 PBS OWENTON KY 349° 26.7 44

* blue - uhf WKLE-DT 46.1 PBS LEXINGTON KY 139° 26.9 42


Ideally, I would like to be able to pull it off with an indoor antenna, but if needed can mount an outdoor on the eastern side of my house.


Any input or ideas?


Thanks a bunch.




Update:


I've tried several indoor antennas with little to no luck. I'm going to have to go outdoor.


The wife is requesting that I don't get a monster 120"x110" aerial.


Getting WDKY (VHF-3) would be nice, but apparently it's virtually impossible around here.


Getting WKYT (VHF-13) is imperative. Is there a relatively small, less noticeable antenna I can mount next to the dish to get the digital channels?


Is the CM Sleathtenna any good?


Thanks again.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *justechn* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have been reading a lot of posts and I have gotten a lot of good information. I was hoping I could confirm my choices with you before I make a final decision. Here is the list from AntennaWeb.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> It says I only need the smallest of MultiDirectional antennas, but I am about 50 miles from the nearest tower. I would like to get FOX but I would probably need an outdoor or attic antenna and that is not an option.
> 
> 
> I was looking at the Philips PHDTV3 Indoor HDTV UHF/VHF antenna, but I am really not interested in VHF because all the digital channels are in the UHF band. Is this the best antenna? Is there a better UHF only antenna? When it says it is powered is that for both UHF and VHF?



Your house must be a ridge or high hill for antennaweb to come up with yellow at 50+ miles. All of your digital stations are currently on UHF. However, KSTU Fox 13 (28) will be switching it's digital broadcast to VHF 13 after the analog shutdown in 2009. All the other stations will be staying at UHF. So for the long run, you will need an antenna which can pick up VHF 13 which many UHF antennas will do.


Even with yellow from antennaweb, an indoor antenna at 50 miles is asking a lot. The Philips PHDTV3 is an antenna with a built-in amplifier IIRC, which is rather expensive for what it does. If you have a spot with a clear shot at 309 degree azimuth, give the ~$25 Philips PHDTV1 Silver Sensor or the PHDTV3 a shot if you can buy it locally and return it if it does not work. Normally at 50 miles, the Channel Master 4221 4 Bay or more often, the CM 4228 8 Bay mounted in the attic or on the roof would be the category of antenna that would be recommended.


----------



## HBIC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Note that with Antennaweb, you can click on the street-level map to re-center it and update the channel listings accordingly. With a bit of work, you can center it on your exact location (give or take a hundred feet or so). Or you can enter your address to give it a starting point that's close to your actual location, although I can understand why you might not want to do that.



i actually did use my exact address with the 23185 area code and it only showed those 2 channels...but I am very happy with what I am getting with my Sensor


----------



## exguitarplayer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hellsredsled* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ok, my parents have a Sony KDF50WE655. On the back there is no dedicated HD antenna input like my Mits TV. Does the HD antenna hook up to the uhf/vhf antenna input and receive over the air HD programing? Help plz..





Yes...it does!


----------



## igator99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *exguitarplayer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes...it does!



I'm trying to get a Baton Rouge LouisianaNBC station. I live about 65 miles away and I can pull it in on occasion using the largest Radio Shack antenna. I pick up my local NOLA HD channels with no problem but the NOLA NBC station hasn't broadcast in HD since Katrina. I was thinking about buying the Radio Shack large UHF antenna and getting another of their top amps just for that antenna. Do you guys think this will work or can you suggest something better? THanks abunch!


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *igator99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm trying to get a Baton Rouge LouisianaNBC station. I live about 65 miles away and I can pull it in on occasion using the largest Radio Shack antenna. I pick up my local NOLA HD channels with no problem but the NOLA NBC station hasn't broadcast in HD since Katrina. I was thinking about buying the Radio Shack large UHF antenna and getting another of their top amps just for that antenna. Do you guys think this will work or can you suggest something better? THanks abunch!



If you provide your zip code, it is easier to look up the digital stations around you. But if you have a station broadcasting on UHF at 65 miles, step up to better antennas than you can get at Radio Shack. For UHF at that range, the AntennasDirect 91XG yagi and the Channel Master 4228 8 Bay bowtie are the antennas of choice here.


----------



## Mustang1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Small amplified antennas such as that are not likely to work very well at 21 miles. Get a real antenna. The broadcast towers for LA are located way up there on Mt. Wilson and, IIRC, the digital stations are all currently at UHF. If you are looking for an interim solution and have a window or upper floor with a clear view of the mountains to the north, try a Silver Sensor UHF antenna. Circuit City may have one under the Philips brand name for $25, model # PHDTV1.
> 
> 
> If you are looking for a more permanent attic or roof mounted setup, the Channel Master (CM) 4221 4 Bay bowtie, CM 4228 8 Bay, or any number of medium range VHF/UHF antennas should do the job.




Thnx, i ordered one online.










Btw, can the coax go directly to the hdtv set or does it need a receiver of some sort?? sorry im a newb at this.


----------



## Jhamps10




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *igator99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm trying to get a Baton Rouge LouisianaNBC station. I live about 65 miles away and I can pull it in on occasion using the largest Radio Shack antenna. I pick up my local NOLA HD channels with no problem but the NOLA NBC station hasn't broadcast in HD since Katrina. I was thinking about buying the Radio Shack large UHF antenna and getting another of their top amps just for that antenna. Do you guys think this will work or can you suggest something better? THanks abunch!



question, are you mounting this on your roof, or in your attic. if you are having your antenna in the attic you may just need to mount it on your roof.


----------



## 13th shadow

Hello all, newbie here with a question(s).


Brief history:


At our home we have a RS outdoor antenna (about 1 yr old) model # VU-75 XR ( I think that's the one) set on the roof. The signal is split for three different tvs using the cabling installed by Dish when we had it, so I don't know the specific type of cable it is (rf? coaxial?).


The cable leading to my tv, Sammy LN4095D, is roughly about 50 ft. When I purchased the tv, early Dec., I was able to pull in just about everychannel available in my area. I had problems with signal breakup on digital channels so I went back to RS and purchased the High Gain Signal Amplifier model # 15-2507. All the channels looked great, even the SD channels. One problem though, it deteriorated the feed to the other two tvs.


So I was forced to take down the amp. (parent's house, parents rules unfortunately), but now have lost most of my channels. The signal is worse on my tv than before, and I have actually lost some channels. I checked the signal strength on the digital channels I was able to get back and they are definitely weaker.


Did the amp. screw up my tv? cabling? ant.?


My dad seems to think that because we disconnected the cables from the splitter the connections have been compromised. Something about first time connections being stronger than a connection that has been disconnected/reconnected. He is definitely not the most tech savvy person I know so I have a hard time believing him. Unfortunately, I don't know much about this particular area either so I am at a loss as to what to do. Any help would be greatly appreciated, even if you just point to another thread.


Sorry for the long post but I didn't want to leave any small detail out. Zip code is 78521 in case that helps at all.


Once again thanks for helping out a newb.


-Victor


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *13th shadow* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello all, newbie here with a question(s).
> 
> 
> Brief history:
> 
> 
> At our home we have a RS outdoor antenna (about 1 yr old) model # VU-75 XR ( I think that's the one) set on the roof. The signal is split for three different tvs using the cabling installed by Dish when we had it, so I don't know the specific type of cable it is (rf? coaxial?).
> 
> 
> The cable leading to my tv, Sammy LN4095D, is roughly about 50 ft. When I purchased the tv, early Dec., I was able to pull in just about everychannel available in my area. I had problems with signal breakup on digital channels so I went back to RS and purchased the High Gain Signal Amplifier model # 15-2507. All the channels looked great, even the SD channels. One problem though, it deteriorated the feed to the other two tvs.
> 
> 
> So I was forced to take down the amp. (parent's house, parents rules unfortunately), but now have lost most of my channels. The signal is worse on my tv than before, and I have actually lost some channels. I checked the signal strength on the digital channels I was able to get back and they are definitely weaker.
> 
> 
> Did the amp. screw up my tv? cabling? ant.?
> 
> 
> My dad seems to think that because we disconnected the cables from the splitter the connections have been compromised. Something about first time connections being stronger than a connection that has been disconnected/reconnected. He is definitely not the most tech savvy person I know so I have a hard time believing him. Unfortunately, I don't know much about this particular area either so I am at a loss as to what to do. Any help would be greatly appreciated, even if you just point to another thread.
> 
> 
> Sorry for the long post but I didn't want to leave any small detail out. Zip code is 78521 in case that helps at all.
> 
> 
> Once again thanks for helping out a newb.
> 
> 
> -Victor



I punched your zipcode into www.fccinfo.com and found quite a few nearby broadcast towers.

You'll need to provide (or DIY) a more accurate position (e.g. nearby cross-streets) to determine exactly how far away.


High-gain Preamps are not intended to be used near broadcast towers due to internal distortion (overload) problems.

Depending on where the intermodulation (IM) products fall, certain channels will suffer from interference....and others may not....


If you are within "about" 10-15 miles, you'll need to insert some attenuation between the antenna and the Preamp to suppress IM well below the level of the desired signal (each 1 dB of attenuation results in 3 dB of IM reduction).


Radio Shack has a variable RF attenuator you can use (indoors only) until you figure out how big a fixed attenuator to use....or simply start with one and then two 3 dB fixed attenuators. [PS: You can also try an RF Splitter, which has 3-4 dB of loss.]


Alternatively, the low-gain Winegard HDP-269 Preamp has a much, much higher resistance to overload and may not need any attenuation if you are at least 5-10 miles from the nearest broadcast tower:
http://www.summitsource.com/product_...oducts_id=5577 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...PROD=ANWHDP269 


If you are within about 3-5 miles, using a Preamp may be too difficult....esp since signals leak in via cables and connectors...


----------



## Rick0725

The preamp situation discussed is valid advise.


Low noise preamplifiers are designed to improve the signal to noise ratio of your system. This means increasing signal levels, but with minimal noise contribution (higher signal to noise ratio).


The radio shack preamps are in the 5-6 db noise range and to honest 30 db gain is a bit much for most applications.


High noise preamplifers also increase signal levels, but they also increase noise, which can degrade picture quality. not a desireable combination.


The compromise would be to beef up the antenna gain some instead of adding amplification then toning the signal down. adding amplification so close to the towers puts your system at risk of overload and poor overall results.


Sometimes it is better to beef up the antenna gain some instead of adding amplification then toning the signal down.


I would replace the radio shack antenna with a higher performing antenna like a winegard hd7082p and get buy without amplification.


If you split the signal several times and you find that the higher frequencies/channels are not to your liking and need aboost, add the winegard hdp 269 preamp, amplify uhf, and pass the vhf signal. You really can not go with a uhf only preamp like the winegard ap4700 which passes vhf because the gain is too high.


----------



## lordpookdai

hey! i'm new here and after reading quite a bit of this thread i decided it would probably be the best place to post.


My situation:


Dorm room (1st floor) around 10 minutes from trenton and im looking to get the philadelphia stations (from 31 or miles away at 251 degrees). Im using an HDTV wonder and the antenna that came with it. However, 251 degrees is not out my window but instead out the window across the hall (sorry for sounding so confusing). At this point i can't get any stations (most likely because im surrounded by concrete).


Is this a hopeless cause, or would an antenna with a preamp (such as a silver sensor) allow me to get the stations from 30 miles away? Thanks in advance for any help that can be thrown my way.


----------



## dhmcg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *igator99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm trying to get a Baton Rouge LouisianaNBC station. I live about 65 miles away and I can pull it in on occasion using the largest Radio Shack antenna. I pick up my local NOLA HD channels with no problem but the NOLA NBC station hasn't broadcast in HD since Katrina. I was thinking about buying the Radio Shack large UHF antenna and getting another of their top amps just for that antenna. Do you guys think this will work or can you suggest something better? THanks abunch!



I live 43 miles from the New Orleans transmitters and 52 miles from the Baton Rouge transmitters. I installed the Channel Master 4228 and 7778. The antenna is on a 20' pole. It is aimed at New Orleans an approximately 135 deg. I pick up channels 2,4,4.1,8,8.1,9,12,12.1,18,20,20.1,22,23,26,26.1,27,27.1,27. 3,27.5, 28,32,33,33,1,38,38,1,44,44.1,44.2,47,49,49.1,49,4,54,54.1. The vhf analog is very poor but all digitals are clear. Some of the higher analog channels are fairly clear to clear. Checl the local HD forum for both Baton Rouge and New Orleans.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...51#post9413751 

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...19#post9430919 


Some people are stacking 2 4228's and a high quality combiner (not sure if this is the proper term) with a7777 or 7778 preamps.


Dan

Ponchatoula, La


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mustang1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Btw, can the coax go directly to the hdtv set or does it need a receiver of some sort?? sorry im a newb at this.



Since no one replied to this, does your HD TV have an digital ATSC tuner? If so, connect the coaxial cable to the RF input port, aim the antenna, and do a digital channel scan. You may have to repeat the scan a few times to find the best aim for the antenna.


----------



## holl_ands

Here's a more complete list of Preamp Specs I've been collecting for awhile.

If anyone sees any typos or omissions, feel free to chime in....


Note that I attempted to correlate a Lab Test published in IEEE to Preamps that matched known

Preamp Gain specs-- feel free to offer up any alternative correlations....

 

Preamp_Specs_RevA-3781.zip 9.3720703125k . file


----------



## holl_ands

The terrain database and propagation predictions algorithms have been changed in www.antennaweb.org 
http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0114/t.1014.html 


So does this mean it will generate a more complete list of "receivable" stations.....


At least with RADIO MOBILE (and SPLAT!) we can see what the assumptions are...


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here's a more complete list of Preamp Specs I've been collecting for awhile.
> 
> If anyone sees any typos or omissions, feel free to chime in....



I can't download the list. I instead get, "Internet Explorer was not able to open thin internet site. The requested site was either unavailable or cannot be found. Please try again later."


----------



## Dan Kolton




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lordpookdai* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is this a hopeless cause, or would an antenna with a preamp (such as a silver sensor) allow me to get the stations from 30 miles away? Thanks in advance for any help that can be thrown my way.



The Silver Sensor isn't amplified, and I don't know whether it would work for you, but it might be worth a try. I bought mine from Amazon for about $25. I doubt that an amplifier would help. You can also buy from local Best Buy, Lowes or CC so it's easier to return if necessary.


----------



## lordpookdai

thanks for you help, i will most likely give that a try


----------



## muchium




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Since you're gonna need as much help as possible--higher is better.
> 
> I would suggest higher gain CM-4228 (which also has gain in upper-VHF), a rotator
> 
> and the CM-7777 Preamp---which has more than enough gain to drive multiple RF Splitters.



Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try the CM-4228 and CM-7777 and see how that works.


----------



## 13th shadow

Thanks to both holl_ands and Rick0725. I will be looking into your suggestions, hopefully by next weekend, and hopefully I'll be back to enjoying all my programs again.


Thanks for the advice.


----------



## Tim Lones

Hello:

I've asked some general antenna questions in the Cleveland Forum..I thought I'd put down what I'd like to get..I am in SW Canton Ohio..about 60 miles south of Cleveland and 45-50 miles southwest of Youngstown. Antennaweb says I should get these channels:




yellow - uhf WEAO 49 PBS AKRON OH 337° 23.2 49

* yellow - uhf WEAO-DT 50.1 PBS AKRON OH 337° 23.2 50

yellow - uhf WVPX 23 i AKRON OH 342° 20.8 23

* yellow - uhf WVPX-DT 59 i AKRON OH TBD 342° 20.9 59

red - uhf WNEO 45 PBS ALLIANCE OH 81° 27.1 45

* red - uhf WNEO-DT 46.1 PBS ALLIANCE OH 81° 27.1 46

red - uhf WOAC 67 SAH CANTON OH 17° 22.1 67

red - uhf WIVM-LP 52 IND CANTON OH 55° 9.8 52

red - uhf WDLI 17 TBN CANTON OH 67° 7.9 17

blue - vhf WTOV 9 NBC STEUBENVILLE OH 134° 51.8 9

blue - vhf WKYC 3 NBC CLEVELAND OH 348° 43.5 3

* blue - vhf WKYC-DT 3.1 NBC CLEVELAND OH 348° 43.5 2

blue - uhf WOIO 19 CBS SHAKER HEIGHTS OH 348° 43.7 19

blue - vhf WJW 8 FOX CLEVELAND OH 345° 42.5 8

* blue - uhf WOAC-DT 47.1 SAH CANTON OH 17° 22.1 47

blue - uhf WVIZ 25 PBS CLEVELAND OH 343° 41.6 25

blue - vhf WEWS 5 ABC CLEVELAND OH 346° 43.2 5

blue - uhf WUAB 43 MNT LORAIN OH 346° 43.6 43

blue - uhf WQHS 61 UNI Cleveland OH 347° 43.5 61

blue - uhf WBNX 55 CW AKRON OH 348° 43.4 55

* blue - uhf WBNX-DT 55.1 CW AKRON OH 348° 43.4 30

blue - uhf WKBN 27 CBS YOUNGSTOWN OH 73° 43.7 27

* violet - uhf WKBN-DT 27.1 CBS YOUNGSTOWN OH 73° 43.7 41

* violet - uhf WFMJ-DT 21.1 NBC YOUNGSTOWN OH 71° 44.7 20

* violet - uhf WQHS-DT 61.1 UNI Cleveland OH 347° 43.5 34

violet - vhf KDKA 2 CBS PITTSBURGH PA 113° 75.6 2

* violet - uhf WDLI-DT 39.1 TBN CANTON OH 339° 20.6 39

violet - vhf WTRF 7 CBS WHEELING WV 153° 61.2 7

violet - uhf WOUC 44 PBS CAMBRIDGE OH 180° 48.8 44


All I can do at this point is either an indoor antenna or a clip on the dish type..I know my best shot is at the Yellow and Red listings. Hoping for some of the blue..What would be the best antenna for my situation?..And would an amplified antenna help?..Thanks for any responses..


----------



## TVSaurus

Couldn't find a CM7777 in stock anywhere so I bought a 7778 instead which is to replace my Radio Shack amp. I was hoping for better gain to get some distant signals.


Hooked it up today and wondered if I need to set it for the combined UHF/VHF or slit? Left it in the default settings for now. So far, I don't have any signal.


Think I wasted my money on the 7778 when I should have waited for the 7777?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVSaurus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Couldn't find a CM7777 in stock anywhere so I bought a 7778 instead which is to replace my Radio Shack amp. I was hoping for better gain to get some distant signals.
> 
> 
> Hooked it up today and wondered if I need to set it for the combined UHF/VHF or slit? Left it in the default settings for now. So far, I don't have any signal.
> 
> 
> Think I wasted my money on the 7778 when I should have waited for the 7777?



What's your zipcode---and nearby cross-streets if you don't mind...


----------



## TVSaurus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What's your zipcode---and nearby cross-streets if you don't mind...



39560


hwy 90 & Island View


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVSaurus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Couldn't find a CM7777 in stock anywhere so I bought a 7778 instead which is to replace my Radio Shack amp. I was hoping for better gain to get some distant signals.
> 
> 
> Hooked it up today and wondered if I need to set it for the combined UHF/VHF or slit? Left it in the default settings for now. So far, I don't have any signal.
> 
> 
> Think I wasted my money on the 7778 when I should have waited for the 7777?



I've used both preamps and can't tell much difference between the two.


I checked your zip and you need a substantial install.You need to get that 4228 up around 40-50ft on a sturdy guyed mast or tower.As far as a CBS station,WWL @61mi should be your best bet with their 1000ft tower with omni radiation.Not sure what their current status is though.Your other CBS is even farther away on a 6-700ft tower and running on a construction permit.


----------



## TVSaurus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've used both preamps and can't tell much difference between the two.
> 
> 
> I checked your zip and you need a substantial install.You need to get that 4228 up around 40-50ft on a sturdy guyed mast or tower.As far as a CBS station,WWL @61mi should be your best bet with their 1000ft tower with omni radiation.Not sure what their current status is though.Your other CBS is even farther away on a 6-700ft tower and running on a construction permit.



With the RS preamp I could get WWL fairly well along with Fox8 but did have some occasional dropouts. I was thinking the CM would solve that problem. But after installing the CM I can't get anything. Its like I didn't install it correctly. On the RS unit I can see the red light on whereas this unit there is no indication. So should I use the combined input jack?


I may just go back to the other unit if needed.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TVSaurus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> With the RS preamp I could get WWL fairly well along with Fox8 but did have some occasional dropouts. I was thinking the CM would solve that problem. But after installing the CM I can't get anything. Its like I didn't install it correctly. On the RS unit I can see the red light on whereas this unit there is no indication. So should I use the combined input jack?
> 
> 
> I may just go back to the other unit if needed.



Use UHF/combined input and set the internal switch to combined.If you unplug the power supply signals will be severely degraded.Good way to tell if it's working.


Fringe distant signals will vary substantially with the weather/seasonal changes.This is probably what you're experiencing.


----------



## zenbig42

Greetings, new here. I live in area where problems are like deep-fringe, but I think mountains are problem, not distance.


My basic question is what antenna (UHF) or set-up do you think is best for dealing with multi-path in weak signal area?


I haven't been able to get any advice on my local thread. Seems everyone there is on comcast and/or not challenged by OTA.


Here's my situation:

Zip 05674, (Latitude = 44.1064, Longitude = -72.8914) in the mountains, elev 1600'. 29 miles from transmitters. All digital channels I want are co-located on Mt. Mansfield (at 3800' elev). System: samsung 4092 tv, dish vip622 receiver, antenna radio shack vu90-xr, 10' mast on roof ridge, 40 feet above ground, channel master 7778 pre-amp (using combined UHF/VHF input, yes I tried checking/switching the internal switch), rg6 (80', properly grounded, direct to tv tuner). We have DishNetwork, which carries locals, but not in HD. (and they are the worst of any of the SD channels!). Four local channels are now broadcasting OTA HD in digital (at Mt. Mansfield).


Antennaweb says I should only get one analog channel (wcax ch3). this one comes in fine, with some minimal ghosting, but of course I'm looking for the digital signals. I've tried a number of different antennas with varying results. I can reliably get one channel (wvny-dt on ch13-vhf), though I can most often lock on the 3 other digital channels (all on UHF 14, 32, 53), but the signal strength (using on-screen samsung meter) fluctuates (usually 3-4 bars out of 10) and I get frequent pixelation and dropouts so the channels are unwatchable for 3/4 of the time, I get the rare moments or hours when I can direct the antenna (very slight aiming adjustment) and get to watch the channel I want for a bit. Again, the exception is the my sole VHF digital channel 13 wvny which is solid (but still only 3-4 strength). I have the antenna hooked directly to the TV ant input, as the samsung tuner deals with the weak signals I have much better. the dish vip622 doesn't recognize (with a scan) any of the other channels other than the ch13 wvny.


I've also tried these antennas: CM 4228, the AntennasDirect 43XG, and the larger Radio Shack vu-190. But none have been able to improve my results. I have used lots of patience and plenty of experimentation (with and with out pre-amp for each; careful aiming, adjusting both the height of the antenna and the physical location on the roof). I was really surpised that I actually get better reception (on uhf channels) with the radio shack vu90xr than with the CM 4228, b/c the 4228 is recommended in so many places online, in discussion forums, and hdtvprimer as the solution for both fringe and multipath problems.


Even though my antenna is high, the hill I am on slopes gently up in the direction of the towers (adding yet another obstruction) and the trees are higher (nearest at 50' and they are spruce with needles all year). There are numerous mountains that block line-of-sight to towers. I thought the nearby trees might be the problem, but then I tried the CM 4228 near the top of one of these spruce trees up about 60' off ground - nothing in front of the antenna (yeah, my wife that experiment...LOL!) in calm clear weather and did not get any improvement with this installation over the same antenna on the roof. In the tree, I had a clear view (no trees) of the nearest horizon, the top of my local hill, about 1000' feet away, my rg6 run was about 200' total to tv in this set-up.


The most frustrating part is that I KNOW we have some signal here, but its either just too weak, too much multipath, or not the right antenna (or all the above!) I am thinking about trying next the XG91 or CM 3023 (same as CM 4248) antenna. I am also considering the 16-bay CM 4228 solution (on hdtvprimer website) or a stack of 2 XG91's. I realize nothing may work any better and that I'm SOL in my area (or have to live with just one OTA HD channel), but any advice or recommendations about this situation would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *zenbig42* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Greetings, new here. I live in area where problems are like deep-fringe, but I think mountains are problem, not distance.
> 
> 
> My basic question is what antenna (UHF) or set-up do you think is best for dealing with multi-path in weak signal area?
> 
> 
> I haven't been able to get any advice on my local thread. Seems everyone there is on comcast and/or not challenged by OTA.
> 
> 
> Here's my situation:
> 
> Zip 05674, (Latitude = 44.1064, Longitude = -72.8914) in the mountains, elev 1600'. 29 miles from transmitters. All digital channels I want are co-located on Mt. Mansfield (at 3800' elev). System: samsung 4092 tv, dish vip622 receiver, antenna radio shack vu90-xr, 10' mast on roof ridge, 40 feet above ground, channel master 7778 pre-amp (using combined UHF/VHF input, yes I tried checking/switching the internal switch), rg6 (80', properly grounded, direct to tv tuner). We have DishNetwork, which carries locals, but not in HD. (and they are the worst of any of the SD channels!). Four local channels are now broadcasting OTA HD in digital (at Mt. Mansfield).
> 
> 
> Antennaweb says I should only get one analog channel (wcax ch3). this one comes in fine, with some minimal ghosting, but of course I'm looking for the digital signals. I've tried a number of different antennas with varying results. I can reliably get one channel (wvny-dt on ch13-vhf), though I can most often lock on the 3 other digital channels (all on UHF 14, 32, 53), but the signal strength (using on-screen samsung meter) fluctuates (usually 3-4 bars out of 10) and I get frequent pixelation and dropouts so the channels are unwatchable for 3/4 of the time, I get the rare moments or hours when I can direct the antenna (very slight aiming adjustment) and get to watch the channel I want for a bit. Again, the exception is the my sole VHF digital channel 13 wvny which is solid (but still only 3-4 strength). I have the antenna hooked directly to the TV ant input, as the samsung tuner deals with the weak signals I have much better. the dish vip622 doesn't recognize (with a scan) any of the other channels other than the ch13 wvny.
> 
> 
> I've also tried these antennas: CM 4228, the AntennasDirect 43XG, and the larger Radio Shack vu-190. But none have been able to improve my results. I have used lots of patience and plenty of experimentation (with and with out pre-amp for each; careful aiming, adjusting both the height of the antenna and the physical location on the roof). I was really surpised that I actually get better reception (on uhf channels) with the radio shack vu90xr than with the CM 4228, b/c the 4228 is recommended in so many places online, in discussion forums, and hdtvprimer as the solution for both fringe and multipath problems.
> 
> 
> Even though my antenna is high, the hill I am on slopes gently up in the direction of the towers (adding yet another obstruction) and the trees are higher (nearest at 50' and they are spruce with needles all year). There are numerous mountains that block line-of-sight to towers. I thought the nearby trees might be the problem, but then I tried the CM 4228 near the top of one of these spruce trees up about 60' off ground - nothing in front of the antenna (yeah, my wife that experiment...LOL!) in calm clear weather and did not get any improvement with this installation over the same antenna on the roof. In the tree, I had a clear view (no trees) of the nearest horizon, the top of my local hill, about 1000' feet away, my rg6 run was about 200' total to tv in this set-up.
> 
> 
> The most frustrating part is that I KNOW we have some signal here, but its either just too weak, too much multipath, or not the right antenna (or all the above!) I am thinking about trying next the XG91 or CM 3023 (same as CM 4248) antenna. I am also considering the 16-bay CM 4228 solution (on hdtvprimer website) or a stack of 2 XG91's. I realize nothing may work any better and that I'm SOL in my area (or have to live with just one OTA HD channel), but any advice or recommendations about this situation would be greatly appreciated.




I am not too faimillar with mountains situation, but I would check the some of the west coast local forum such as


There is one guy in that Seattle OTA fourm can't remember name, but he is very good getting info out to people with mountains problems as he installs OTA and Satatllie dishes in mountains area.


Seattle, WA OTA
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=397256 


Los Angeles, CA OTA
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=191672 


Sacramento, CA OTA
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=397256 


From what I read in those local forum sometime you need to point the antenna toward the sky like 45 degree up or point to a hill behind you or off to the side and get reflection off another hill or mountain and maybe point it alittle off side. I would e-mail to those local station engineer and ask them what they suggestion to solve the problem as I am sure they get allot of request to solve the problem.


Good Luck


----------



## zenbig42

Thanks. I have talked with several of the different stations engineers on my challenges. will keep trying!


----------



## Mustang1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Since no one replied to this, does your HD TV have an digital ATSC tuner? If so, connect the coaxial cable to the RF input port, aim the antenna, and do a digital channel scan. You may have to repeat the scan a few times to find the best aim for the antenna.



http://www.dealtime.com/xPF-Mitsubis...www.google.com 


yes it has a tuner. i tried today, and im receiving static on the channels, on channel 2 it shows the program but there is still some heavy rain, I mounted an squareshooter 2000 onto a pole about 4 feet high, but im still receiving bad reception. the Coax cable is connected to the power splitter it came with and then connected to the tv coax. The channels are only 20 miles away from me, but still cannot produce clear picture. Unless im pointed it the wrong way.










Edit: its on the roof of my house.


zip code is 91331 in Ca http://www.antennaweb.org 

I was planning to use this for the super bowl










Edit2: woohoo.. holy crap..







i set up the tv, it was the tv this whole time, after i set up woo it works perfect with the HD channels..







im watching the laker game right now it looks amazing!







Thnx you so much!


----------



## hlg1951

I just made the antenna in this article and put on the floor in the bedroom. It is receiving better than the Phillips MANT940 I bought. I am using the amplifier from the Phillips though. Sorry, had to remove the rest of this because it would not let me post it. You can figure out where to put the dots.


uhfhdtvantenna blogspot c o m


I will put it in the attic tomorrow and the reception should max out. Channels that were at about 30% are now in 60-70% range. I am about 35 miles from antennas in DFW area, north of Dallas. The only channel I do not get is channel 8 which uses the VHF channel 9 for their DT signal. I can pick them up good on my scanner discone antenna which is outside. I will have to figure out how to combine the signals from the two antennas so I can also get channel 8.


Actually the discone antenna picks up all channels up to about 33. Not bad, but I want the channels above that also.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *zenbig42* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Greetings, new here. I live in area where problems are like deep-fringe, but I think mountains are problem, not distance.
> 
> 
> My basic question is what antenna (UHF) or set-up do you think is best for dealing with multi-path in weak signal area?
> 
> 
> I haven't been able to get any advice on my local thread. Seems everyone there is on comcast and/or not challenged by OTA.
> 
> 
> Here's my situation:
> 
> Zip 05674, (Latitude = 44.1064, Longitude = -72.8914) in the mountains, elev 1600'. 29 miles from transmitters. All digital channels I want are co-located on Mt. Mansfield (at 3800' elev). System: samsung 4092 tv, dish vip622 receiver, antenna radio shack vu90-xr, 10' mast on roof ridge, 40 feet above ground, channel master 7778 pre-amp (using combined UHF/VHF input, yes I tried checking/switching the internal switch), rg6 (80', properly grounded, direct to tv tuner). We have DishNetwork, which carries locals, but not in HD. (and they are the worst of any of the SD channels!). Four local channels are now broadcasting OTA HD in digital (at Mt. Mansfield).
> 
> 
> Antennaweb says I should only get one analog channel (wcax ch3). this one comes in fine, with some minimal ghosting, but of course I'm looking for the digital signals. I've tried a number of different antennas with varying results. I can reliably get one channel (wvny-dt on ch13-vhf), though I can most often lock on the 3 other digital channels (all on UHF 14, 32, 53), but the signal strength (using on-screen samsung meter) fluctuates (usually 3-4 bars out of 10) and I get frequent pixelation and dropouts so the channels are unwatchable for 3/4 of the time, I get the rare moments or hours when I can direct the antenna (very slight aiming adjustment) and get to watch the channel I want for a bit. Again, the exception is the my sole VHF digital channel 13 wvny which is solid (but still only 3-4 strength). I have the antenna hooked directly to the TV ant input, as the samsung tuner deals with the weak signals I have much better. the dish vip622 doesn't recognize (with a scan) any of the other channels other than the ch13 wvny.
> 
> 
> I've also tried these antennas: CM 4228, the AntennasDirect 43XG, and the larger Radio Shack vu-190. But none have been able to improve my results. I have used lots of patience and plenty of experimentation (with and with out pre-amp for each; careful aiming, adjusting both the height of the antenna and the physical location on the roof). I was really surpised that I actually get better reception (on uhf channels) with the radio shack vu90xr than with the CM 4228, b/c the 4228 is recommended in so many places online, in discussion forums, and hdtvprimer as the solution for both fringe and multipath problems.
> 
> 
> Even though my antenna is high, the hill I am on slopes gently up in the direction of the towers (adding yet another obstruction) and the trees are higher (nearest at 50' and they are spruce with needles all year). There are numerous mountains that block line-of-sight to towers. I thought the nearby trees might be the problem, but then I tried the CM 4228 near the top of one of these spruce trees up about 60' off ground - nothing in front of the antenna (yeah, my wife that experiment...LOL!) in calm clear weather and did not get any improvement with this installation over the same antenna on the roof. In the tree, I had a clear view (no trees) of the nearest horizon, the top of my local hill, about 1000' feet away, my rg6 run was about 200' total to tv in this set-up.
> 
> 
> The most frustrating part is that I KNOW we have some signal here, but its either just too weak, too much multipath, or not the right antenna (or all the above!) I am thinking about trying next the XG91 or CM 3023 (same as CM 4248) antenna. I am also considering the 16-bay CM 4228 solution (on hdtvprimer website) or a stack of 2 XG91's. I realize nothing may work any better and that I'm SOL in my area (or have to live with just one OTA HD channel), but any advice or recommendations about this situation would be greatly appreciated.



I would certainly give you an E for effort,for what you've tried so far.Your best diagnostic tool would be Ch33 and 22 viewed on an analog tv.I'm surprised the xg43 didn't perform the best.If indeed your problem is multipath,but sufficient signal to work with,I'd try two xg91's in a horizontal stack experimenting with placement and width spacing.That's basically all you can do.Also,you might check for signals less than 40ft above the ground.Strange things can happen.


You might leave the v/u90 on current mast for VHF w/o a rotor,then put up another mast for the UHF w/a rotor as mutipath sweetspots can and do come in at varying angles.


----------



## DanKurts




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *zenbig42* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Greetings, new here. I live in area where problems are like deep-fringe, but I think mountains are problem, not distance.
> 
> 
> My basic question is what antenna (UHF) or set-up do you think is best for dealing with multi-path in weak signal area?
> 
> 
> I haven't been able to get any advice on my local thread. Seems everyone there is on comcast and/or not challenged by OTA.
> 
> 
> Here's my situation:
> 
> Zip 05674, (Latitude = 44.1064, Longitude = -72.8914) in the mountains, elev 1600'. 29 miles from transmitters. All digital channels I want are co-located on Mt. Mansfield (at 3800' elev). System: samsung 4092 tv, dish vip622 receiver, antenna radio shack vu90-xr, 10' mast on roof ridge, 40 feet above ground, channel master 7778 pre-amp (using combined UHF/VHF input, yes I tried checking/switching the internal switch), rg6 (80', properly grounded, direct to tv tuner). We have DishNetwork, which carries locals, but not in HD. (and they are the worst of any of the SD channels!). Four local channels are now broadcasting OTA HD in digital (at Mt. Mansfield).
> 
> 
> Antennaweb says I should only get one analog channel (wcax ch3). this one comes in fine, with some minimal ghosting, but of course I'm looking for the digital signals. I've tried a number of different antennas with varying results. I can reliably get one channel (wvny-dt on ch13-vhf), though I can most often lock on the 3 other digital channels (all on UHF 14, 32, 53), but the signal strength (using on-screen samsung meter) fluctuates (usually 3-4 bars out of 10) and I get frequent pixelation and dropouts so the channels are unwatchable for 3/4 of the time, I get the rare moments or hours when I can direct the antenna (very slight aiming adjustment) and get to watch the channel I want for a bit. Again, the exception is the my sole VHF digital channel 13 wvny which is solid (but still only 3-4 strength). I have the antenna hooked directly to the TV ant input, as the samsung tuner deals with the weak signals I have much better. the dish vip622 doesn't recognize (with a scan) any of the other channels other than the ch13 wvny.
> 
> 
> I've also tried these antennas: CM 4228, the AntennasDirect 43XG, and the larger Radio Shack vu-190. But none have been able to improve my results. I have used lots of patience and plenty of experimentation (with and with out pre-amp for each; careful aiming, adjusting both the height of the antenna and the physical location on the roof). I was really surpised that I actually get better reception (on uhf channels) with the radio shack vu90xr than with the CM 4228, b/c the 4228 is recommended in so many places online, in discussion forums, and hdtvprimer as the solution for both fringe and multipath problems.
> 
> 
> Even though my antenna is high, the hill I am on slopes gently up in the direction of the towers (adding yet another obstruction) and the trees are higher (nearest at 50' and they are spruce with needles all year). There are numerous mountains that block line-of-sight to towers. I thought the nearby trees might be the problem, but then I tried the CM 4228 near the top of one of these spruce trees up about 60' off ground - nothing in front of the antenna (yeah, my wife that experiment...LOL!) in calm clear weather and did not get any improvement with this installation over the same antenna on the roof. In the tree, I had a clear view (no trees) of the nearest horizon, the top of my local hill, about 1000' feet away, my rg6 run was about 200' total to tv in this set-up.
> 
> 
> The most frustrating part is that I KNOW we have some signal here, but its either just too weak, too much multipath, or not the right antenna (or all the above!) I am thinking about trying next the XG91 or CM 3023 (same as CM 4248) antenna. I am also considering the 16-bay CM 4228 solution (on hdtvprimer website) or a stack of 2 XG91's. I realize nothing may work any better and that I'm SOL in my area (or have to live with just one OTA HD channel), but any advice or recommendations about this situation would be greatly appreciated.



zenbig42

Well, you have several things you're fighting.


My topo program's not ultra accurate, but pretty close most of the time. It shows your house as about 500ft up the hill on S. Hollow Road, where it goes basically north/south, from the turn at the bottom, and you're on the east side of the road. At that point it says your elevation is 1565ft. The top of the hill is 1780ft, and about 2300 ft north, and just a hair east, where the signal crosses it. Normally, 200ft of hill that far away is not a big deal. That's why WCAX comes in okay. It's transmitting on ch53 digital with 628kw. That's pretty good power over that distance of only 29.6 miles. WVNY ch 13 is a whimp. It only has 10kw of power. Granted, you don't need as much power in the VHF range. Normally I would expect it to be around 200 to 300kw. They're running on fumes. Throw in a hill, and trees over a 1/4 mile that add another 50ft to that hilltop to soak what's left, and you can barely smell the fumes! WETK ch 32 is also very weak. It's analog signal on ch33 has 1350kw, nice and hot, but it's digital ch32 is only 90kw, not even 10% of the analog. The simple fact that you got no better going up on the treetop shows how weak it is. The preamp should have more than made up for the 200ft of RG6.

Then there's another factor to understand. The actual analog video carrier is only about a half mhz wide, digital is 6 mhz wide. And, it ALL has to get there within about 5 to 6db in strength, or the decoder just can't lock in on it. Trees are great at chopping up that fat signal. Multipath is when you have strong signal bouncing off of things. You have MultiBlocking! Wide angle antennas like the 4228 do have good gain, but they pickup everything. Yagis are very narrow, and will allow you to thread the needle through the trees. That's partly why the RatShack worked better. It has a yagi on the front for UHF, and it's VHF design is fairly narrow. To get good UHF gain requires big yagis and stacked. Wait, it gets worse. When you stack them, they get real "peaky", meaning their gain gets slightly better, but over a narrower range of frequencies. Since you're trying to get ch32 to 53, that's a pretty wide range. Granted, 53 is hot and could live with less antenna, you might still have problems. Never was able to find what/where ch14 was, but that's way down the frequency scale from ch53, more problems. My experience with stacking yagis has been a lot of work for very little gain. Yes, it can work, but frankly, with my 35 years of experience at this, there's no way I would want to attempt stacking with out my meter. You just don't know what you're fighting, and when you're winning or loosing. The "meter" you see on you're TV or sat box is really measuring signal to noise ratio. Once you get above the minimums for the decoder to work, you could see very high readings, yet be actually hanging on by your fingernails. It's hard to tell what's really going on because small improvements in reception will still read the same.


I've e-mailed you some screen shots of my topo program showing what the hills look like in relation to your reception path. It will explain how to read it.


I never say never, but it looks pretty bad. Throw crazy money at it, and get approval from the FCC for a 250ft tower to clear your hill, some ultra low noise preamps, low loss cable, etc, and you could make it work. Not realistic for you, but I've done a couple for small communities and it works.


Those other antennas you mentioned, the XG91, or similar Blake style UHF yagis all claim crazy numbers, but in the real world, I didn't see it. I've tried many of them against other yagis, while doing installs, to see if there's a better mousetrap. Not impressed. I use the 4248 for a big yagi 95% of the time, and the Antennacraft MXU59 for the few times the 4248 gets fussy at some locations. Most of these people on the forums that claim brand A or B is the best double-throwdown-slamma-jamma out there, simply used one, and it worked. They probably could've gotten by with much less, just didn't know it. I have used only two 4228's in the last 10 years of HD installs. I use the 4221 instead. Far more forgiving. If I need gain, a 7775 preamp. We don't have VHF HD out here in Seattle, but we do have lots of hills and heavy Fir trees, far worse than Pine. Our HD frequencies range from ch18 to 48 for the main channels. We have three different main sites, so it can get tricky for direction and antenna type to get all with one. You're lucky, in that they're all one direction. Sadly, that's about the only good thing you have going.


Wish I could say something better. If you have cable, that may be the only choice.


There are two things I can suggest.

One is that Samsung now has a really good over air tuner for HD only. It's only $179 at Circuit City or Best Buy. I tried one at several really tough locations, including my house, and it did amazing things with really ugly, weak signals. You could try one out, if it doesn't work, return it. It's about the most sensitive and selective tuner I've seen in years. It's brand new
http://www.samsung.com/Products/Digi...B_H260FXAA.asp 


If that doesn't do it, nothing will.

Now here's the neat part. It's also a QAM tuner, which means it will decode unscrambled cable. The cable companies are required to not only carry all your local channels in analog, but your HD channels as well. If you have a TV with a QAM tuner built in, or it's Cable Card ready, you can just hook up cable and you have the locals in HD. Here we have Comcast. Basic cable service is $13/mo. You don't need to pay extra for the digital cable box unless you want the other cable HD channels, like ESPN, Showtime, HBO, etc. If they tell you you have to have the basic package for $40/mo or so, that's BS. If you ask for it, they have to give it to you. You can't watch the QAM channels without the box, but the little Samsung tuner will decode it for you. All this is assuming the local cable company has your local HD channels. At least you could watch local HD for minimum bucks.

If you have questions, fire away. Or call me. I'll send my phone number in the e-mail. I'll be home Sunday doing office work (No, I'm not watching the Stupid Bowl. Our Sea-Chickens gave away our chance this year!)


Last, I would give you an A for effort. You're not in the know about a lot of this stuff, obviously, but you did do your homework and research, and accomplished a lot with what you had. The results weren't an A, but now you know why.

Big smile!


Dan


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *zenbig42* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks. I have talked with several of the different stations engineers on my challenges. will keep trying!



I'd echo the suggestion of trying different heights on the mast. I live in fairly mountainous terrain and I actually have a "hot spot" around 6-8 ft. above my roofline. Higher than that point and the signal drops off significantly. You might also consider using a variable attenuator at the receiver's input. Sometimes you can attenuate the reflected signal enough to allow a lock on the direct one.


There have been promising reports on the new samsung tuner. That would be another consideration. Make sure you are allowed the option for return and I guess there's little or no risk to trying it.


Other than that, assuming you don't want to consider a tower and a significant increase in height, you are left with the option of horizontal stacking two yagi/corner reflectors like the xg91. The advantage stacking has with dealing with multipath is narrow beamwidth. Up to a point, the wider the spacing the narrower the beamwidth. Don't be afraid to experiment with fairly wide distances up to 60 inches or so. For very weak signals, you need a low loss combiner. However, in your situation a splitter used in reverse would probably work fine. You can do this on the same mast with a vhf antenna mounted underneath if you want, just allow ample spacing between the vhf and uhf sections on the mast. This means around 48 inches for ch. 7-13, 60 inches for 2-6.


Good luck.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DanKurts* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The cable companies are required to not only carry all your local channels in analog, but your HD channels as well.



This seems to be a common missunderstanding around here.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DanKurts* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you have a TV with a QAM tuner built in, or it's Cable Card ready, you can just hook up cable and you have the locals in HD. You don't need to pay extra for the digital cable box unless you want the other cable HD channels, like ESPN, Showtime, HBO, etc.



This is becoming increasingly rare it seems. My provider has all digital channels encrypted, including local OTA HD stations. In fact, reports are coming in from various cities around the country where this is the case. So the antenna solution is becoming even more popular than ever in many places.


----------



## DanKurts




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This seems to be a common missunderstanding around here. This is becoming increasingly rare it seems. My provider has all digital channels encrypted, including local OTA HD stations. In fact, reports are coming in from various cities around the country where this is the case. So the antenna solution is becoming even more popular than ever in many places.



Neil L

Sorry to hear the cable companies are doing more encryption. In our area, they are required to carry the locals, analog and HD. They obviously could encrypt the HD portion, but have chosen not to. There are many other digital channels unencrypted, but are the public channels for the various cities and government affairs. They even allow the Music Choice channels to come through.

And I'm NOT sorry the antenna solution is popular. Keeps me busy!

Dan


----------



## Bozzmonster

Was wondering if there's any input out there. I feel pretty lucky that I live in a fairly flat area in SE Michigan. Plus, my overall elevation is about 200 feet above the general area, but there is a slight rise to my SE in the direction of Detroit. So, I get a pretty good selection of stations. I have two issues:


The stations I get are in multiple directions from three metro areas (Detroit, Bay City/Saginaw/Flint and Lansing, MI.) Multipath isn't a huge issue, but there are trees moderately close by. It is a bigger issue when foliage is on the trees. What are some good suggestions on a trim sized outdoor antenna that might be visible, but is discreet?


Here is a listing of stations. Most of these I can get in with a UHF element I pulled from a Terk 'Silver Sensor' lookalike antenna with a preamp indoors. I have it wall-mounted to a 2 ft piece of wood that is hinged in two locations so I can move it around about a 270 degree arc. Works really well, and I can get the yellow and green stations with no issue. The reds and beyond are a bit iffy. The violet WKBD actually comes in more like one of the 'red' stations. WADL is a no-show, but I really don't care about it.


However, as of now I have to walk to one end of the house, aim the antenna, and walk back to the living room. As the living room is near my PC and other equipment, RF really seems to do a number on reception, so I can't locate there. Whole thing is hooked to the set with RG-6 cable. Thanks for the input!


Zip 48442


yellow - WLNS-DT 6.1 CBS LANSING MI 264° 39.3 59

yellow - uhf WFUM-DT 28.1 PBS FLINT MI 59° 10.1 52

yellow - uhf WDIV-DT 4.1 NBC DETROIT MI 143° 30.9 45

yellow - uhf WAQP-DT 49.1 TBN SAGINAW MI TBD 329° 35.9 48

yellow - uhf WJRT-DT 12.1 ABC FLINT MI 329° 36.5 36

yellow - uhf WSMH-DT 16.1 FOX FLINT MI 329° 35.9 16

green - uhf WEYI-DT 25.1 NBC SAGINAW MI 356° 28.6 30

green - uhf WNEM-DT 12.5 CBS BAY CITY MI 353° 47.0 22

lt green - uhf WDCQ-DT 15.1 PBS BAD AXE MI 4° 50.6 15

red - uhf WJBK-DT 2.1 FOX DETROIT MI 146° 31.7 58

red - uhf WMYD-DT 20.1 MNT DETROIT MI 144° 33.7 21

red - uhf WKAR-DT 23.1 PBS EAST LANSING MI 266° 40.9 55

red - uhf WPXD-DT 31.1 i ANN ARBOR MI 224° 37.8 33

red - uhf WTVS-DT 56.1 PBS DETROIT MI 144° 33.7 43

red - uhf WXYZ-DT 7.1 ABC DETROIT MI 148° 30.0 41

red - uhf WWJ-DT 62.1 CBS DETROIT MI 144° 33.7 44

violet - uhf WKBD-DT 50.1 CW DETROIT MI 152° 27.4 14

violet - uhf WADL-DT 39.1 IND MOUNT CLEMENS MI 122° 41.1 39


----------



## Joshua2639

Hello,


I think I understand Whats going on but I am looking for any advice.


Here is my data from antenna web:

* yellow - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 134° 18.0 32

yellow - uhf WUCW 23 CW MINNEAPOLIS MN 134° 18.0 23

yellow - vhf KARE 11 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 134° 18.0 11

* yellow - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 134° 18.0 35

yellow - uhf WFTC 29 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 133° 18.8 29

* yellow - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 133° 18.8 21 yellow - uhf KSTC 45 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN 134° 18.0 45

* yellow - uhf KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN 134° 18.0 44

* yellow - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL MN 134° 18.0 50

* yellow - uhf KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 133° 18.8 34

* yellow - uhf KTCI-DT 17.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 133° 18.8 16

yellow - uhf KPXM 41 i ST. CLOUD MN 300° 17.7 41

* yellow - uhf KPXM-DT 41.1 i ST. CLOUD MN 300° 17.7 40

yellow - vhf KMSP 9 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 133° 18.8 9

* yellow - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 133° 18.8 26

green - uhf KTCI 17 PBS ST. PAUL MN 133° 18.8 17

green - vhf KTCA 2 PBS ST. PAUL MN 133° 18.8 2

green - vhf KSTP 5 ABC ST. PAUL MN 134° 18.0 5

green - vhf WCCO 4 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 134° 18.0 4

lt green - uhf WDMI-LP 62 DAY MINNEAPOLIS MN 161° 19.9 62

lt green - uhf K58BS 58 TBN MINNEAPOLIS MN 161° 19.9 58

* red - uhf WUCW-DT 23.1 CW MINNEAPOLIS MN 134° 18.0 22


Looks to me like everything I need is 133-134 degrees and about 18miles away. No big hills or anything else like that. The chart says I should get a small multidirectional antenna. Is bigger always better like the first post on this thread 2+ years ago said? Or will I get good results with a small one? Also, I would prefer to put the antenna in the attic. I have a 2 story house, with asphalt shingles, with 1/2 OSB. Does that matter? Will I have problems in the attic versus on the roof? I would prefer to stay off the roof because I have alot of high winds at my place with the community pond in the back.


I have assured my wife I know what I am doing so I have just one chance to get this right.


Also, One more question. I want to be able to run a cable to hook up all tv through out the house. Will this need an amplified antenna? I have Amplifiers from the Cable company but they are in line before the spliter, not with the antenna.



Thanks for any help,


Josh


----------



## zenbig42




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DanKurts* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> zenbig42
> 
> Well, you have several things you're fighting.....(And the rest)
> 
> 
> Last, I would give you an A for effort. You're not in the know about a lot of this stuff, obviously, but you did do your homework and research, and accomplished a lot with what you had. The results weren't an A, but now you know why.
> 
> Big smile!
> 
> 
> Dan




Hey, thanks for all the time you took to analyze my spot. I agree...MultiBlocking! First time I heard that term. Besides my hill, there are a number of other mountains that block the direct line of sight btw here an transmitters (even though they are on top of VT's highest peak!)


I will continue to experiement with the antenna placement (height, etc) when the weather's a little warmer (near zero F here!). I did get the CM 4248 yagi to experiment with. All the same principles on installation apply, I assume? Good thoughts on stacking. Not sure I want to throw that much $ at it with the possibilty of return being questionable...but the again I love to try to solve tough problems. Tower is out of question too. Fortuately, some good online sources that will let you return antennas that haven't worked for me have saved me a lot of $.


As for cable..our company is far behind. No HDTV, and no current plans to offer it before 2009. That's why we switched to Dish when we got new TV. The cable is a local company Waitsfield Cable that has thrown all their resources at DSL broadband internet (....the future of HD content...???) which for our rural area is amazing.... 6 mb down/2 mb up and 100% coverage in our area. Wish I could get the cable channels that way!


Couple of questions on the tuner: I have the Samsung TV model 4092 LCD with ATSC tuner. QAM is different? Does this Samsung have it? The TV's tuner definitely works much better than the DishNetwork Vip622 tuner...which won't lock on anything except for wvny (VHF ch13). I have the antenna hooked directly to the TV (with pre-amp set-up of course) which gets me a lock on the digital ch. most of the time (but mostly unwatchable due to dropouts except wvny-always good and wcax-sometimes good).


Give you a call to say thanks, chat a few minutes if you email #. I will be watching the stupid bowl! Displaced and disgruntled Giants fan here.


----------



## zenbig42




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Other than that, assuming you don't want to consider a tower and a significant increase in height, you are left with the option of horizontal stacking two yagi/corner reflectors like the xg91. The advantage stacking has with dealing with multipath is narrow beamwidth. Up to a point, the wider the spacing the narrower the beamwidth. Don't be afraid to experiment with fairly wide distances up to 60 inches or so.
> 
> 
> Good luck.



Thanks for the advice cpcat.

Did you custom make the booms and mount for your stack? Or off the shelf? Nice setup, and great pictures.....some wife think these are ugly....I say beautiful!

zenbig42


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *zenbig42* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice cpcat.
> 
> Did you custom make the booms and mount for your stack? Or off the shelf? Nice setup, and great pictures.....some wife think these are ugly....I say beautiful!
> 
> zenbig42



Fiberglass tubes/rods: http://www.mgs4u.com/ 


I use 1.25 inch tubes with 1 inch tubes stuffed inside to increase stiffness. It's only necessary to use fiberglass for parts which are horizontal and at a right angle to the oncoming signal.


The main attachment to the vertical rotor mast is via the Blonder Tongue BTY-MC stacking clamp. The secondary attachments to the fiberglass tubes are via modified CM attic mounts. The secondary attachments don't see as much stress.

Initially, I used the same attic mount mod for the main attachment to the rotor mast. In the pic you can see the wear/tear this created on the mount.


The bty-mc is expensive but is stainless steel and very sturdy/robust.


----------



## germ79

Hello all! I just signed up for satellite and will need to get an antenna for local HD channels. I went to the site recommended, but I'm not sure I understand completely what it is saying.


Here is a screen shot of what my results were:

 


Does this mean a small indoor antenna will suffice?


Thanks so much!


Jeremy


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joshua2639* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here is my data from antenna web:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Looks to me like everything I need is 133-134 degrees and about 18miles away. No big hills or anything else like that. The chart says I should get a small multidirectional antenna. Is bigger always better like the first post on this thread 2+ years ago said? Or will I get good results with a small one? Also, I would prefer to put the antenna in the attic. I have a 2 story house, with asphalt shingles, with 1/2 OSB. Does that matter? Will I have problems in the attic versus on the roof? I would prefer to stay off the roof because I have alot of high winds at my place with the community pond in the back.
> 
> 
> Also, One more question. I want to be able to run a cable to hook up all tv through out the house. Will this need an amplified antenna? I have Amplifiers from the Cable company but they are in line before the spliter, not with the antenna.



Are you interested in only the digital stations or do you need to receive the analog stations as well? All of your digital stations are currently broadcasting on UHF (last number on each row). However, KMSP-DT Fox 9 (DT=26), will switch it's digital broadcast to upper VHF 9 in 2009 after the analog shutdown. So for the near future, you need only a UHF antenna, but for 2009, you will need an antenna setup which can handle UHF and upper VHF.


Provided you attic does not have a radiant barrier lining, an antenna in the attic should work for only 18 miles. Since all of your stations are yellow, except for WUCW-TV CW 23 and that station may be at full power, an indoor antenna might work. But an attic mount is better than indoor. There are a lot of antennas that should do the job. A channel master 4221 4 Bay fits into an attic fairly well and should pick up all your UHF stations. Or a standard medium range VHF/UHF antenna should do. I would put up the antenna without a pre-amp to see if you can get all the stations. You can add a pre-amp or distribution amp later if it turns out to be needed.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *germ79* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello all! I just signed up for satellite and will need to get an antenna for local HD channels. I went to the site recommended, but I'm not sure I understand completely what it is saying.
> 
> 
> Here is a screen shot of what my results were:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does this mean a small indoor antenna will suffice?
> 
> 
> Thanks so much!
> 
> 
> Jeremy



No. Your CBS DTV station is purple. A rooftop antenna with a preamp is called for. There are so many directions that you'll need a rotator too.


----------



## DanKurts




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *zenbig42* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey, thanks for all the time you took to analyze my spot. I agree...MultiBlocking! First time I heard that term. Besides my hill, there are a number of other mountains that block the direct line of sight btw here an transmitters (even though they are on top of VT's highest peak!)
> 
> 
> I will continue to experiement with the antenna placement (height, etc) when the weather's a little warmer (near zero F here!). I did get the CM 4248 yagi to experiment with. All the same principles on installation apply, I assume? Good thoughts on stacking. Not sure I want to throw that much $ at it with the possibilty of return being questionable...but the again I love to try to solve tough problems. Tower is out of question too. Fortuately, some good online sources that will let you return antennas that haven't worked for me have saved me a lot of $.
> 
> 
> As for cable..our company is far behind. No HDTV, and no current plans to offer it before 2009. That's why we switched to Dish when we got new TV. The cable is a local company Waitsfield Cable that has thrown all their resources at DSL broadband internet (....the future of HD content...???) which for our rural area is amazing.... 6 mb down/2 mb up and 100% coverage in our area. Wish I could get the cable channels that way!
> 
> 
> Couple of questions on the tuner: I have the Samsung TV model 4092 LCD with ATSC tuner. QAM is different? Does this Samsung have it? The TV's tuner definitely works much better than the DishNetwork Vip622 tuner...which won't lock on anything except for wvny (VHF ch13). I have the antenna hooked directly to the TV (with pre-amp set-up of course) which gets me a lock on the digital ch. most of the time (but mostly unwatchable due to dropouts except wvny-always good and wcax-sometimes good).
> 
> 
> Give you a call to say thanks, chat a few minutes if you email #. I will be watching the stupid bowl! Displaced and disgruntled Giants fan here.



zenbig42

Send me a note at [email protected] and I'll send you the pictures of the signal path and hills. The file's too big for this forum. It will make more sense when you see it in 3D.

There's only one hill in your way, the top of the hill just north of you. After that it's line of sight.


The only install principal you may not be aware of is keeping the balun wires neat and tidy, away from the boom, and not twisted together. Preferably the same shape on each lead, too. Beyond that, you've already had some success, so you must be doing the rest close enough to right. Here's a good site for info on stacking, as well as a lot of other data.
http://kyes.info/antenna/stacking.html 

cpkat has built a great mount setup for stacking and playing with various permutations. You most likely won't need a rotor. Just button it down enough that you can still turn it a little. Tilting the nose upwards a few degrees may help a little, but tweak everything dead level first. When you've maxed it, then play with tilt. Another key is to keep the two antennas (or four) as identical

as possible in cable lengths to the combiner(splitter), directions parallel, etc.

And then there's patience. Don't whip the antenna around quickly. The decoders need a few seconds on the uglier signals to lock in. Move it a little, wait, move, wait....


ATSC is the over the air method of encoding the signals for the carrier. QAM is the method cable companies use. If your TV has a "cable card ready" notation, or small slot on the back for what looks like a PCMCIA card, then it has the QAM tuner/decoder. However, since your cable company is not up to speed, it doesn't make much difference.


The little Samsung 260 tuner is a 5th generation decoder. That's why I mentioned it. It's hands down the best one I've seen. It might be able to get you that extra edge. Far better than the ones in the Samsung TV's out now, or any other's.


To give you an example, I have one PBS station that's in the opposite direction from all the others I receive. My antenna is a 4221, mounted on the side of my house, no preamp. The backplane, or screen, is designed to reject signals from the back side. The PBS station is about 8 miles away. I also have a 300ft high hill in that direction, about a half mile away. And, like your weak stations, this one is ch27 and only has 6kw of power. When I hook up my meter, it shows nothing. To summarize, that's a whimpy transmitter, hiding behind a hill, and the signal is also blocked by my house, my neighbors house, and the backplane of the antenna.

And it works! The tuner has a "strength indicator" that shows ten bars for a max signal. Ch27 comes in at only 2 bars, but it's rock solid. That's just unbelievable.

It performed similarly in 2 other ugly locations. That doesn't mean it will work everywhere, but looks very promising. I have owned or tried about every tuner out there at my house, at one time or other, over the last ten years we've had HD here. None would do that. My other PBS station signal, from the normal direction for my antenna, is pretty chopped up by trees right behind my house. I don't watch that station, but try it every now and then, and it occasionally comes in, but readings bounce all over the map on my Zenith/LG 3200, which is an above average tuner.

The Samsung locks it in at ten bars.


The only other thing I've seen that's close is the PC tuner V-box 3560. I've had about ten of them on different installs, in impossible locations, again, when my meter wouldn't even read some of the channels, (that's below -30db) and they all worked. Obviously, your mileage may vary.


I mention all this because the Samsung might just level the playing field for you. If you can wrangle one for a test, with a return policy, it could save you a whole lot of grief.


Must admit, I watched the last 5 minutes of the bowl game, to see if the Bears got whooped. Excellent!


Send me an e-mail.

Dan


----------



## Joshua2639

Thanks for the advice Afiggatt. I will need both the Hd and Analog channels so I will stick with the medium uhf/vhf antenna. I have read quite a few post of yours and you seem to mention Channel Master in most of them. I will order from warren electronics; I just could use a hand deciding which one. Here are the two am looking at. Please let me know if one is better than another or if there is a different one you would suggest.


3018

3677


Or would I be better off installing the 4 bay and installing another antenna for the VHF?


Thanks for your advice,


Josh


----------



## ZenithPete

Hi, I realize bigger is generally better, but I want to try and get channels about 35 miles out, with as slim or small an outdoor antenna as possible. What are some of the better slimline/smallish antennas on the market that don't compromise too much in terms of range? Thanks.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joshua2639* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice Afiggatt. I will need both the Hd and Analog channels so I will stick with the medium uhf/vhf antenna. I have read quite a few post of yours and you seem to mention Channel Master in most of them. I will order from warren electronics; I just could use a hand deciding which one. Here are the two am looking at. Please let me know if one is better than another or if there is a different one you would suggest.
> 
> 
> 3018
> 
> 3677
> 
> 
> Or would I be better off installing the 4 bay and installing another antenna for the VHF?



If you want to get the low VHF analog stations, the Winegard conventional VHF/UHF antennas get more recommendations here than the Channel Master series. Take a look at the Winegard 7078P. But you are only 18 miles from stations all in the same direction, I would not be surprised if a Silver Sensor in the attic worked for the UHF digital stations.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ZenithPete* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi, I realize bigger is generally better, but I want to try and get channels about 35 miles out, with as slim or small an outdoor antenna as possible. What are some of the better slimline/smallish antennas on the market that don't compromise too much in terms of range? Thanks.



What is your zip code? We need more info than general range. Are your stations all digitally broadcasting on UHF or will some be switching to upper VHF in 2009 after the analog shutdown. What is your terrain? Flat or hilly terrain with dense woods? Your zip code will allow us to look that info up and see what antennaweb.org has to say.


----------



## germ79




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No. Your CBS DTV station is purple. A rooftop antenna with a preamp is called for. There are so many directions that you'll need a rotator too.



Oh my goodness! That sure seems like a lot to be able to pull in that one station! How big of an antenna are we talking about? Can you please point me in the right direction as to which brand/style to get and how to install/connect?


As far as the rotator is concerned, is that necessary or can you just have different "elements" pointing in different dirctions?


My father-in-law lives about 2 miles away and using a indoor Terk TV5 he gets most of those stations. I can't remember if he gets the CBS or not, but I know he had all of the major networks.


Thanks for your help!


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *germ79* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Oh my goodness! That sure seems like a lot to be able to pull in that one station! How big of an antenna are we talking about? Can you please point me in the right direction as to which brand/style to get and how to install/connect?
> 
> 
> As far as the rotator is concerned, is that necessary or can you just have different "elements" pointing in different dirctions?
> 
> 
> My father-in-law lives about 2 miles away and using a indoor Terk TV5 he gets most of those stations. I can't remember if he gets the CBS or not, but I know he had all of the major networks.
> 
> 
> Thanks for your help!



You can't aim one antenna in four directions. If you don't want a rotator, you'll need four antennas joined together.


You'll want two of these; one for NBC/CW and one for ABC/FOX. http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4221.htm 

This is the right antenna for PBS.
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/y10713.htm 

This is for CBS.
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4228.htm 

This is how you add them together;
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/ant...Jointennas.htm 


Now do you appreciate the suggestion that you get a rotator?


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *germ79* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Oh my goodness! That sure seems like a lot to be able to pull in that one station! How big of an antenna are we talking about? Can you please point me in the right direction as to which brand/style to get and how to install/connect?
> 
> 
> As far as the rotator is concerned, is that necessary or can you just have different "elements" pointing in different dirctions?
> 
> 
> My father-in-law lives about 2 miles away and using a indoor Terk TV5 he gets most of those stations. I can't remember if he gets the CBS or not, but I know he had all of the major networks.



The reason that WCIA-DT CBS 3 (DT=48) station is getting a purple color code from antennaweb is that the digital signal is at low power. According to the wikipedia entry - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WCIA-TV - the station is also still not broadcasting an HD signal. It is owned by NexStar Broadcasting which has been putting off going to full digital power for many stations they own. Don't let that station drive your antenna selection as you may not be able to get it until they boost the digital signal.


The rest of the significant digital stations are yellow, but spread around in azimuth. One is broadcasting on VHF 9, the rest on UHF. If you provide your zip code, it is a lot easier to figure out what antenna is best for your situation. The default antennaweb settings tend to be over conservative on digital reception.


----------



## germ79




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you provide your zip code, it is a lot easier to figure out what antenna is best for your situation. The default antennaweb settings tend to be over conservative on digital reception.



Thank you both for your help. I'm new to this whole new antenna thing! My zip is 62549.


Thank you VERY much!


Jeremy


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *germ79* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thank you both for your help. I'm new to this whole new antenna thing! My zip is 62549.



I plugged in an antenna height of 200' into antennaweb for your zip code to get the list below. The color codes are not that relevant when you do this, but it provides a more complete list of the digital stations you MAY get. First, WICS-DT ABC 20 comes in purple, but the FCC database for the station shows a low power STA entry and a full power licensed entry. Antennaweb is using the low power number in it's calculations. Check with your local central IL thread at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=195213 for the status of the stations. They should also be able to provide local advice on antennas.


The trimmed list for your digital stations is:

* yellow - uhf WRSP-DT 55.1 FOX SPRINGFIELD IL 274° 30.5 44

* yellow - uhf WAND-DT 17.1 NBC DECATUR IL 11° 12.2 18

* yellow - uhf WBUI-DT 23.1 CW DECATUR IL 2° 11.8 22

* yellow - vhf WILL-DT 12.1 PBS URBANA IL 32° 20.9 9

* lt green - uhf WCIA-DT 3.1 CBS CHAMPAIGN IL 46° 31.8 48

* violet - uhf WCFN-DT 49.1 MNT SPRINGFIELD IL 273° 34.1 53

* violet - uhf WICS-DT 20.1 ABC SPRINGFIELD IL 275° 31.3 42


The WILL PBS 12 station is broadcasting on VHF 9, the rest are currently on UHF. My suggestion would be to get a Channel Master 4221 4 bay bowtie UHF antenna and put it in the attic or better yet outside. If you put it on the roof, get a rotator. The CM 4221 can pick up stations spread around in azimuth, but your situation is a challenge. Try the CM 4221 by itself first, maybe combined with a medium boost pre-amp. Aim it at the more distant Springfield stations. The CM 4221 has some pickup for upper VHF, but you may need to add a upper VHF antenna - the Winegard YA-6713 - aimed at the PBS station if it does not come in. However combining a UHF and a VHF antenna is easy with a simple VHF-UHF antenna combiner.


For info on antennas and OTA reception, go to http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html . Hope this all makes sense.


Good luck!


----------



## cbaker007

I am looking to buy an antenna for OTA reception of HD only. I have have been doing research for a few months now and have used the antennaweb site several times, read many posts here in this thread, and have read the Antenna Primer listed here as well. I was curious if anyone could offer any antenna recommendation. I would appreciate any recommendations I can get from someone who is an expert on antennas or those with exeriences similiar to mine:


1) Looking to pickup OTA HD on UHF and High VHF (I know that Chicago WBBM-DT is on VHF low, but with all the issues with WBBM-DT not worried about it - beside they are moving to High VHF at some point, CH-11).

2) All stations I care about are in one direction (40-41 degrees) (will let go of the few in Gary, IN if they don't come in - totally different direction).

3) I am estimating that I am 30-40 miles away. Using AntennaWeb site and put in a multi-story building (same results with single story), all the HD ( -DT ) stations that I care about show at Yellow or less. (WBBM-DT in Low VHF shows in Green along with a bunch of SD stations.)

4) Due to the orientation of my home (front faces toward the antennas), I don't want to place a large, "finger type" antenna on the 2nd story roof (really steep roof, so 3 stories up) on the outside.

5) The first obstruction is a series of 2-story, brick homes about 250' away.


1) Any chance I could use one of these smaller "rod" (example - Terk TV55) or "flat panel" (example - Terk HDTVs or Winegard SS-2000) type antenna just outside, even if the house (brick) or if put on a chimey on the back "L" part of the house (which would have the roof (shingles and plywood) in the way.

2) If that wouldn't work, would putting one of these low profile antennas listed above work on the first floor outside in the front?

3) Or would I need to go with a larger, "finger type" unit in the attic. I have one on top of the 2nd story that would just have plywood and thick asphalt shingles. About 100' of cable to run.

4) I have a single story attic too, but that has a gable end with metal foil insulation, plywood, and brick between the antenna and transmitter.


Any recommendations out there?


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cbaker007* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am looking to buy an antenna for OTA reception of HD only. I have have been doing research for a few months now and have used the antennaweb site several times, read many posts here in this thread, and have read the Antenna Primer listed here as well. I was curious if anyone could offer any antenna recommendation. I would appreciate any recommendations I can get from someone who is an expert on antennas or those with exeriences similiar to mine:
> 
> 
> 1) Looking to pickup OTA HD on UHF and High VHF (I know that Chicago WBBM-DT is on VHF low, but with all the issues with WBBM-DT not worried about it - beside they are moving to High VHF at some point, CH-11).
> 
> 2) All stations I care about are in one direction (40-41 degrees) (will let go of the few in Gary, IN if they don't come in - totally different direction).
> 
> 3) I am estimating that I am 30-40 miles away. Using AntennaWeb site and put in a multi-story building (same results with single story), all the HD ( -DT ) stations that I care about show at Yellow or less. (WBBM-DT in Low VHF shows in Green along with a bunch of SD stations.)
> 
> 4) Due to the orientation of my home (front faces toward the antennas), I don't want to place a large, "finger type" antenna on the 2nd story roof (really steep roof, so 3 stories up) on the outside.
> 
> 5) The first obstruction is a series of 2-story, brick homes about 250' away.
> 
> 
> 1) Any chance I could use one of these smaller "rod" (example - Terk TV55) or "flat panel" (example - Terk HDTVs or Winegard SS-2000) type antenna just outside, even if the house (brick) or if put on a chimey on the back "L" part of the house (which would have the roof (shingles and plywood) in the way.
> 
> 2) If that wouldn't work, would putting one of these low profile antennas listed above work on the first floor outside in the front?
> 
> 3) Or would I need to go with a larger, "finger type" unit in the attic. I have one on top of the 2nd story that would just have plywood and thick asphalt shingles. About 100' of cable to run.
> 
> 4) I have a single story attic too, but that has a gable end with metal foil insulation, plywood, and brick between the antenna and transmitter.
> 
> 
> Any recommendations out there?





Welcome to the fourm, You have come to the right place for information and you have provide us with alot of information but missing the most important thing is the zip code. Just post the zip code and you will get quicker responce. And About Terk TV-55 is way over priced and I will have to admit it work for me 70 miles away to get major Chicago stations but it very directional even some station is on the same building but I had to move it to one side or another or move it up and down to get it.


----------



## waporvare

I have two hr10-250's and I want to receive digital channels from Memphis which is 77 miles from me. Directv gives me Paduca,KY locals, non hdtv. I just ordered a 5x8 powered multiswitch, the Eagle Aspen S-4180-GX+, an Antennas Direct 91XG, and a Channel Master CM 7775. I have seven lines running from the multiswitch with lenghts going from 50 to 100ft. This will be roof mounted on a pole about 6 feet above the roof (single story) centerline. I plan on using the multiswitch to merge the antenna and sat signals and using a diplexer at the two hdtv receivers. By my calculations I'm probably looking at a -3db loss across all lines.


Does that sound right? Does this configuration sound like it should work?


----------



## majik99

I was wondering if I could get some opinions on my situation. I am at zip code 76132. I currently have a 68-80% signal on all of the UHF digital stations in my area. I am using a older cheap loop and rabbit ears uhf/vhf antenna. My apartment has a balcony on the west side. The stations broadcast from the east, and that is the direction I have my set top antenna pointed towards. The only problem I am having is with WFAA, a VHF station. I am going to buy a new antenna, but I am not sure what to get. I could get a slightly better indoor antenna and put it in the same spot. Or I could get an outdoor antenna. The problem is that since my balcony is even further west (only a few feet ofcourse, but we know what a few feet can mean in terms of reception) will putting an outdoor antenna there help? I tried to move my indoor antenna closer to the balcony and I lost all the channels. So I guess my question is, is an outdoor antenna always better even if it has to point through the same amount, or even one additional wall? Thanks for the help.


----------



## cbaker007

Thanks,


60467


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I can't download the list. I instead get, "Internet Explorer was not able to open thin internet site. The requested site was either unavailable or cannot be found. Please try again later."



Did you eventually get it to work???


I posted spreadsheets containing compendiums of ANTENNA SPECS, PREAMP SPECS and CABLE SPECS

into the "HOW TO RUN RADIO MOBILE IN S.D & L.A." thread:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST27664


----------



## caryraleigh

Do anyone know if the the TREK indoor antenna with amplifier

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...597040-9650212 


is better then this one

http://www.antonline.com/p_Terk--HDT...na-_220325.htm 


I have Rabbit Ear Antenna(Loop) with amplifier which is distorting picture and dropping signal in every 1 minute for few seconds and thinking that these kind of antenna may be better based on what I read from HDTV primer site with lot of info on antenna.


Also how does this one compares to the above models

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Phili...oductDetail.do 


Thanks


----------



## ryancmor17




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ryancmor17* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here is my antenaweb for 44035.
> 
> 
> I was ready to pull the trigger on a RS VU-90 XR, but neither store near me has any in stock so I will take this time to get a second opinion. The spec says up to 70 miles, so ignoring the Akron/Canton stations I should be ok for all others. In my case for ease of installation in the snow I want to temporarily mount this in the attic until spring, will this be overkill at 70 miles in the attic or should I go smaller?
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf WJW-DT 8.1 FOX CLEVELAND OH 101° 18.6 31
> 
> * yellow - uhf WEWS-DT 5.1 ABC CLEVELAND OH 99° 18.5 15
> 
> * yellow - uhf WQHS-DT 61.1 UNI Cleveland OH 97° 19.3 34
> 
> * green - uhf WUAB-DT 43.1 MNT LORAIN OH 98° 18.4 28
> 
> * red - vhf WOIO-DT 19.1 CBS SHAKER HEIGHTS OH 96° 19.7 10
> 
> * red - vhf WKYC-DT 3.1 NBC CLEVELAND OH 96° 20.0 2
> 
> * red - uhf WBNX-DT 55.1 CW AKRON OH 97° 19.7 30
> 
> * blue - uhf WEAO-DT 50.1 PBS AKRON OH 139° 30.9 50
> 
> * blue - uhf WVPX-DT 59 i AKRON OH TBD 138° 33.7 59
> 
> * violet - uhf WDLI-DT 39.1 TBN CANTON OH 139° 33.7 39



The RS model works great for all channels but FOX, the signal goes from 80% to 20% and back. Needless to say this causes a few seconds of freeze frame.


Any suggestions to help pull in a better signal for FOX until spring?


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Did you eventually get it to work???
> 
> 
> I posted spreadsheets containing compendiums of ANTENNA SPECS, PREAMP SPECS and CABLE SPECS
> 
> into the "HOW TO RUN RADIO MOBILE IN S.D & L.A." thread:
> http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST27664



While I still can't get the linked page from post #739 to work, I was able to open the "Forsandiego" link to the same table.


We are still a long way from being able to determine preamp sufficiency from published specs. Channel Master seems to use the exact same values for its 46dB cross modulation threshold that it used to use for its 5% sync compression threshold. Are they coincidentally the same, or did someone producing sales literature make that labeling change on his own?


These input levels are for peak analog carrier levels of typically 2, 4, or 8 inputs at the same voltage level, but we are dealing with wide digital signals that may have about ten times the power of an NTSC signal with a comparable peak voltage strength.


A few years ago, someone here said that if you draw on a power supply to the point where 5% sync compression occurs, it affects strong and weak NTSC signals to the same degree, but when we are creating intermodulation byproducts that land in-band on the weak signals, it is the weak signals that will get degraded beyond recovery. I think we are going to have to learn a lot more about various intermodulation byproducts to be able to assess the extent to which they beat up the weaker signals before we can reliably ascertain the efficacy of any preamplifier in a given system relying on measured input signal levels and published preamplifier intermodulation and distortion specs.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *majik99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was wondering if I could get some opinions on my situation. I am at zip code 76132. I currently have a 68-80% signal on all of the UHF digital stations in my area. I am using a older cheap loop and rabbit ears uhf/vhf antenna. My apartment has a balcony on the west side. The stations broadcast from the east, and that is the direction I have my set top antenna pointed towards. The only problem I am having is with WFAA, a VHF station. I am going to buy a new antenna, but I am not sure what to get. I could get a slightly better indoor antenna and put it in the same spot. Or I could get an outdoor antenna. The problem is that since my balcony is even further west (only a few feet ofcourse, but we know what a few feet can mean in terms of reception) will putting an outdoor antenna there help? I tried to move my indoor antenna closer to the balcony and I lost all the channels. So I guess my question is, is an outdoor antenna always better even if it has to point through the same amount, or even one additional wall? Thanks for the help.



Have you tried placing your current antenna outside on the balcony? Just to see if the signals get stronger or not. You will have to test out different orientations for both antennas and different lengths for the rabbit ears. One thing you should try with the rabbit ears is to extend them only about 1/2 way. WFAA-DT 8 is on upper VHF 9 with a wavelength of 1.6 meters. Try spreading the rabbit ears to a closer spacing.


However, the FCC database for WFAA-DT 8 (see http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=WFAA-TV ) shows the digital power is 18.6 kilowatts, while not a weak signal, is not that strong for an upper VHF station. Even though antennaweb shows a yellow antenna color for it, you may need to add a more substantial antenna for upper VHF reception.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cbaker007* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> 60467



Except for the infamous WBBM-DT CBS 2 on VHF 3, all of your stations are yellow (using your zip code) and currently digitally broadcasting on UHF. The range using your zip code is only 23 to 25 miles and almost all in the same direction. You will also have WLS-DT switching to VHF 7 in 2009.


You posted so many options it is hard to sort through them. An attic with metal foil insulation is not a good bet. So scratch that as an option. A CM 4221 or a Square Shooter shoot get the UHF stations. A Silver Sensor indoor UHF antenna placed somewhere up in the house might get most of those stations for that matter. You could get one locally at Circuit City under the Philips brand (model PHDTV1) or at Best Buy under the Terk brand name if you want to give it a try to find out how strong your UHF stations are.


The problem is WBBM-DT on VHF 3. You could go with a medium range VHF/UHF "Y" style antenna in the higher attic space. The medium range antenna does not have to large. The Winegard 7078p or 7080p offer a shot at getting the CBS station. Add a pre-amp for the 100' RG-6 cable run.


----------



## majik99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Have you tried placing your current antenna outside on the balcony? Just to see if the signals get stronger or not. You will have to test out different orientations for both antennas and different lengths for the rabbit ears. One thing you should try with the rabbit ears is to extend them only about 1/2 way. WFAA-DT 8 is on upper VHF 9 with a wavelength of 1.6 meters. Try spreading the rabbit ears to a closer spacing.
> 
> 
> However, the FCC database for WFAA-DT 8 (see http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=WFAA-TV ) shows the digital power is 18.6 kilowatts, while not a weak signal, is not that strong for an upper VHF station. Even though antennaweb shows a yellow antenna color for it, you may need to add a more substantial antenna for upper VHF reception.



Alright thanks for the ideas. I bought a terk hdtva today. It boosted the signals I was already getting to 75-90%. I still didnt get wfaa. I moved it outside like you said, and depending on where I put it, I got some signal for WFAA. Enough for the TV to add it as a digital channel finally. So it looks like an outdoor antenna might work. My question is now, which one? ALmost all of them tout their ability to receive UHF. What is the best one for VHF while not loosing my UHF stations. Is it the CM 4228? I see that getting "good" reception reviews around here for VHF.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *majik99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Alright thanks for the ideas. I bought a terk hdtva today. It boosted the signals I was already getting to 75-90%. I still didnt get wfaa. I moved it outside like you said, and depending on where I put it, I got some signal for WFAA. Enough for the TV to add it as a digital channel finally. So it looks like an outdoor antenna might work. My question is now, which one? ALmost all of them tout their ability to receive UHF. What is the best one for VHF while not loosing my UHF stations. Is it the CM 4228? I see that getting "good" reception reviews around here for VHF.



The Cm 4228 is a long range directional UHF antenna which is rather large to fit onto a balcony and which has to aimed at the broadcast towers. See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html for details on this antenna and http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html for useful antenna info.


If you are reliably getting all the UHF stations with the Terk HDTVa, stick with it. For WFAA, you could stick a VHF only antenna up near the ceiling or out in the balcony area. See the Winegard YA-6713 as an example of a specialized upper VHF antenna. But experiment first with different lengths and V angles for the rabbit ears to see if it will lock in on WFAA-DT. You could also look into building a simple dedicated dipole antenna for VHF 9 if you are into do it yourself stuff.


----------



## majik99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The Cm 4228 is a long range directional UHF antenna which is rather large to fit onto a balcony and which has to aimed at the broadcast towers. See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html for details on this antenna and http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html for useful antenna info.
> 
> 
> If you are reliably getting all the UHF stations with the Terk HDTVa, stick with it. For WFAA, you could stick a VHF only antenna up near the ceiling or out in the balcony area. See the Winegard YA-6713 as an example of a specialized upper VHF antenna. But experiment first with different lengths and V angles for the rabbit ears to see if it will lock in on WFAA-DT. You could also look into building a simple dedicated dipole antenna for VHF 9 if you are into do it yourself stuff.



Well I have been playing with the rabbit ears all night. I finally got the TV to see WFAA so I could play with the antenna and actually see the signal increase and decrease. So I came up with one ear all the way out and the other only halfway and that seems to be the best so far. Ill stick with this for now, and see how it does. Thanks again!


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *majik99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well I have been playing with the rabbit ears all night. !



Just in case you haven't seen this:

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html


----------



## zenbig42

Has anyone out there done a direct comparision of the Antennas Direct XG91 yagi vs. the Channel Master 4248 yagi in the field in a tough spot, with trees, weak signal area?? I know that published numbers on gain don't exactly equate to what you often get installed.


----------



## Rick0725

the cm4228 and 91xg are the heavy hitters. the 91 xg is favored to tame multipath. they both have 2 db more gain. computer simulations may be more accurate then user comments in general since there are may variables out there.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## zenbig42

Has anyone out there done a direct comparision of the Antennas Direct XG91 yagi vs. the Channel Master 4248 yagi in the field in a tough spot, with trees, weak signal area?? I know that published numbers on gain don't exactly equate to what you often get installed.


----------



## delpis

hi would like help on choosing the right antenna and rg6 cable. the antenna will be used indoors. my zipcode is 02171. any other stuff you need to know, just ask.


i was told by 1 member to get the radio shack u-75r. is that the best choice?


then i need to get an rg6 cable and i don't know how to choose one. double or quad shielded? CSS or copper center? how long? could i just get one from monoprice.com or is Belden the better choice for a few dollars more? if Belden, which one do i get from Here


----------



## phitz

My XG-91 is in the attic and behind trees, works much better than the CM 4248 in this situation.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *caryraleigh* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Do anyone know if the the TREK indoor antenna with amplifier
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...597040-9650212
> 
> 
> is better then this one
> 
> http://www.antonline.com/p_Terk--HDT...na-_220325.htm
> 
> 
> I have Rabbit Ear Antenna(Loop) with amplifier which is distorting picture and dropping signal in every 1 minute for few seconds and thinking that these kind of antenna may be better based on what I read from HDTV primer site with lot of info on antenna.
> 
> 
> Also how does this one compares to the above models
> 
> http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Phili...oductDetail.do
> 
> 
> Thanks



You'll probably find more people claiming success with the Silver Sensor

(Philips/Zenith/Gemini are all the same) vs the Terk copy-cat....


On the other hand, the Terk has rabbit ears for VHF....


The difference between HDTVa and HDTVi models is addition of Preamp in "a" model.

If you are close (say within 5-10 miles) to a nearby broadcast tower,

a Preamp probably won't help and can cause overload problems.


At about 20 miles and beyond (YMMV), a Preamp usually helps (YMMV),

but you may also need a "real" antenna....preferably in the attic or outdoors....


FYI: The Philips PHDTV3 is an amplified version of the Silver Sensor,

which is enclosed to protect the elements:
http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PHDTV3...&s=electronics 


If your location is suitable for an amplified antenna, you also might want

to consider the Radio Shack 15-2187 "circular disc" antenna:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 


Haven't seen very many reports re this antenna (similar to W-G SS-2000???)...

Here is a post from "jhb50" who is amazingly 95 miles away from the L.A. towers:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...06#post9458206 


Anyone else using the R-S "disc"????


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *waporvare* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have two hr10-250's and I want to receive digital channels from Memphis which is 77 miles from me. Directv gives me Paduca,KY locals, non hdtv. I just ordered a 5x8 powered multiswitch, the Eagle Aspen S-4180-GX+, an Antennas Direct 91XG, and a Channel Master CM 7775. I have seven lines running from the multiswitch with lenghts going from 50 to 100ft. This will be roof mounted on a pole about 6 feet above the roof (single story) centerline. I plan on using the multiswitch to merge the antenna and sat signals and using a diplexer at the two hdtv receivers. By my calculations I'm probably looking at a -3db loss across all lines.
> 
> 
> Does that sound right? Does this configuration sound like it should work?



The overall TV sensitivity (i.e. Noise Figure) is primarily determined by CM-7775 Preamp.

The HDTV's sensitivity (est. 7-13 dB), cable (and other) losses also reduce overall sensitivity,

but their contribution is REDUCED by amount of GAIN in CM-7775 Preamp....

so it's only another couple dB of sensitivity loss.


The Eagle Aspen S-4180-GX+ Multiswitch specs show insertion loss of 5 dB for

the TV input, so it apparently includes a low-gain (est. 7+ dB) Preamp to overcome

the approx. 12+ dB loss in the 8-way splitter/diplexer network.
http://www.eagleaspen.com/admin/prod...n/file_243.pdf 


Because there is a Preamp in the Multiswitch, it is possible that the CM-7775 could

overload it's input (from local stations), causing a loss of sensitivity on some channels.

You might want to try inserting a R-S Variable RF Attenuator on the Eagle's

TV input and "tweak" for best reception.


You didn't give your zipcode (and preferably cross streets) so that we could

determine if you had any "nearby" transmitters....if so, a low gain/high overload

W-G Preamp may be a better choice...


True TV/SAT DIPLEXERS have insertion loss under a 1 dB (e.g. RCA VHD920).


Be careful wrt "SAT/TV SPLITTERS" which are just standard RF Splitters with extended

2 GHz bandwidth....and 4 dB insertion loss, such as R-S 16-2568, Philips ZDS5010, et. al.


----------



## germ79




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The WILL PBS 12 station is broadcasting on VHF 9, the rest are currently on UHF. My suggestion would be to get a Channel Master 4221 4 bay bowtie UHF antenna and put it in the attic or better yet outside. If you put it on the roof, get a rotator. The CM 4221 can pick up stations spread around in azimuth, but your situation is a challenge. Try the CM 4221 by itself first, maybe combined with a medium boost pre-amp. Aim it at the more distant Springfield stations. The CM 4221 has some pickup for upper VHF, but you may need to add a upper VHF antenna - the Winegard YA-6713 - aimed at the PBS station if it does not come in. However combining a UHF and a VHF antenna is easy with a simple VHF-UHF antenna combiner.



Thank you all so much for your help!


Well, I'm going to try out my father-in-law's Terk antenna to see how it works. I'm assuming it will get everything except that darned CBS station.


I'd rather not put an antenna on our roof. The way our house is shaped and facing, I think it will look goofy.


If I'm going to put one in the attic, is there anything special I should know? Should I get something bigger or more powerful since it will be in the attic? I don't know how much being insided the attic will take away compared to being on the roof. I kind of have to keep in mind that the attic doesn't have a very large opening to get inside, so I can't have anything that is huge and one-piece.


The Dish Network guy is coming Saturday. Is there anything I need to have him do that would make adding an antenna easier for me? I heard someone somewhere else talke of a diplexer that their Dish guy installed so it would be easier to add an antenna. Is this something I need?


Thanks in advance!


Jeremy


----------



## zenbig42




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *phitz* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My XG-91 is in the attic and behind trees, works much better than the CM 4248 in this situation.



You tried a CM 4248 (yagi, not the 4228 8-bay) in the same spot? How far are you from the transmitter(s)? Any hills in the way?

thanks!


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *germ79* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I'm going to put one in the attic, is there anything special I should know? Should I get something bigger or more powerful since it will be in the attic? I don't know how much being insided the attic will take away compared to being on the roof. I kind of have to keep in mind that the attic doesn't have a very large opening to get inside, so I can't have anything that is huge and one-piece.



If you put an antenna in the attic, don't bolt the mast down to a specific spot until you have tried it out and find a spot with good reception. Attics can have dead spots for reception because of signals reflecting off of the walls. I have a CM 4221 in my crawl space attic mounted to a large enough piece of flat scrap wood. I used a $5 attic mounting bracket I got at Lowes to mount the PVC pipe mast to the scrap wood. I used it move the antenna around until I found a good location and have pretty much left it there since then. Attics do cut down signal strength, but I can get stations over 45 miles away with the antenna in the attic, so it can work there provided you do not have radiant barrier lining or other metal obstructions.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *germ79* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The Dish Network guy is coming Saturday. Is there anything I need to have him do that would make adding an antenna easier for me? I heard someone somewhere else talke of a diplexer that their Dish guy installed so it would be easier to add an antenna. Is this something I need?



Yes, you could run the antenna signal through the diplexer, although this complicates the setup, especially if you want to add a pre-amp to the antenna. But how far away from the satellite dish is the attic? If you are going to run a RG-6 co-axial from the attic, would it be simpler to just run it directly to the TV? This depends on the layout of your house and where the satellite dishes are. If it can be done without tearing out walls, running a dedicated coaxial line for the OTA antenna is the preferred approach. Then you can add a pre-amp with the power supplied down at the TV and not have to worry about dealing with a diplexer. But you know the layout of your house and what is involved in doing this.


If the Dish installer is running coaxial cables into the house, you could ask him if he would be willing to add another co-axial line for the OTA antenna.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *zenbig42* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Has anyone out there done a direct comparision of the Antennas Direct XG91 yagi vs. the Channel Master 4248 yagi in the field in a tough spot, with trees, weak signal area?? I know that published numbers on gain don't exactly equate to what you often get installed.



Personally I have not tried either (I use a 4228), but you might want to take a look at the following post in this thread.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post9677365


----------



## waporvare




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The overall TV sensitivity (i.e. Noise Figure) is primarily determined by CM-7775 Preamp.
> 
> The HDTV's sensitivity (est. 7-13 dB), cable (and other) losses also reduce overall sensitivity,
> 
> but their contribution is REDUCED by amount of GAIN in CM-7775 Preamp....
> 
> so it's only another couple dB of sensitivity loss.
> 
> 
> The Eagle Aspen S-4180-GX+ Multiswitch specs show insertion loss of 5 dB for
> 
> the TV input, so it apparently includes a low-gain (est. 7+ dB) Preamp to overcome
> 
> the approx. 12+ dB loss in the 8-way splitter/diplexer network.
> 
> 
> 
> Because there is a Preamp in the Multiswitch, it is possible that the CM-7775 could
> 
> overload it's input (from local stations), causing a loss of sensitivity on some channels.
> 
> You might want to try inserting a R-S Variable RF Attenuator on the Eagle's
> 
> TV input and "tweak" for best reception.
> 
> 
> You didn't give your zipcode (and preferably cross streets) so that we could
> 
> determine if you had any "nearby" transmitters....if so, a low gain/high overload
> 
> W-G Preamp may be a better choice...
> 
> 
> True TV/SAT DIPLEXERS have insertion loss under a 1 dB (e.g. RCA VHD920).
> 
> 
> Be careful wrt "SAT/TV SPLITTERS" which are just standard RF Splitters with extended
> 
> 2 GHz bandwidth....and 4 dB insertion loss, such as R-S 16-2568, Philips ZDS5010, et. al.



Thanks for the info thus far. So you think I may not need the pre-amp? I live 77 miles from those towers and the next nearest towers are about 180 degrees out from those and 60 miles away.


My zip is 38079. cross street is sunkist beach and clubhouse lane


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *zenbig42* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Has anyone out there done a direct comparision of the Antennas Direct XG91 yagi vs. the Channel Master 4248 yagi in the field in a tough spot, with trees, weak signal area?? I know that published numbers on gain don't exactly equate to what you often get installed.



Look here: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 

The XG-91 and 4248 are similar. The XG91 does better on the higher channels, the 4248 on the lower channels. They're very close from channels 20-50.


----------



## Rick0725

looking at your antennaweb profile and your setup.


60-70 miles will be a reception challenge for you.


The 91 xg and cm7775 (you did not mention a rotor which I think you will need) will be a great start and the cm7775 is a great preamp choice and necessary in your setup.


you are going to need all the signal strength you can muster. I would strongly think about a separate distribution system for off air to your tuners from the antenna. avoiding all the signal losses associated with diplexing and the complications I foresee with using the amplified multiplexer you selected.


If you lived under move favorable reception conditions I would say diplexing would be fine. But NOT in your case.


The system will need to be simple, avoiding any potential for issues that would contribute to signal loss, interference, or other complications. when you install...run a line direct from the antenna, preamp, to the tuner and see if you even get a signal. Then add the other stuff and see what happens.


The multiplexer (amplified) and diplexing definately are going to make things interesting there!


----------



## waporvare




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> looking at your antennaweb profile and your setup.
> 
> 
> 60-70 miles will be a reception challenge for you.
> 
> 
> The 91 xg and cm7775 (you did not mention a rotor which I think you will need) will be a great start and the cm7775 is a great preamp choice and necessary in your setup.
> 
> 
> you are going to need all the signal strength you can muster. I would strongly think about a separate distribution system for off air to your tuners from the antenna. avoiding all the signal losses associated with diplexing and the complications I foresee with using the multiplexor you selected.
> 
> 
> If you lived under move favorable reception conditions I would say diplexing would be fine. But NOT in your case. The system will need to be simple, avoiding any potential for issues that would contribute to signal loss, interference, or other complications.



Should I consider a better multiplexer?


If I bypass the multiplexer could I have better results with a diplexor on both ends of the line just going to one tv?


I'm trying, if at all possible, to avoid having to run new lines.


10 years ago this house had an antenna and rotor and picked up the analog stations from Memphis. But that got blown away in a storm and I'm just now putting an antenna back for digitals.


----------



## Rick0725

The system will need to be simple, avoiding any potential for issues that would contribute to signal loss, interference, or other complications.


when you install and aim...run a line direct from the antenna, preamp, to the tuner and see if you even get a digital signal. Then add the other stuff and see what happens.


If the results are not satisfactory after adding the other electronics, a separate off air distribution system may be your only alternative.


----------



## greywolf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *waporvare* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Should I consider a better multiplexer?
> 
> 
> If I bypass the multiplexer could I have better results with a diplexor on both ends of the line just going to one tv?
> 
> 
> I'm trying, if at all possible, to avoid having to run new lines.
> 
> 
> 10 years ago this house had an antenna and rotor and picked up the analog stations from Memphis. But that got blown away in a storm and I'm just now putting an antenna back for digitals.



DirecTV will be moving to all Ka band MPEG4 coded signals for HD before very long. Only the HR20 receiver and HR20 DVR or models not yet available will be able to get them with a 5LNB dish. The Zinwell WB68 is the only 8 output multiswitch available right now that will work with those signals. The Ka/Ku band for satellite signals covers 250-2150MHz so diplexing will no longer work. You will need to have a direct line from the antenna for OTA. At least some local HD will be available via the dish in the changeover process. If you are in the Memphis DMA, channels 5, 13 and 24 are available now on the Ka band.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *waporvare* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info thus far. So you think I may not need the pre-amp? I live 77 miles from those towers and the next nearest towers are about 180 degrees out from those and 60 miles away.
> 
> 
> My zip is 38079. cross street is sunkist beach and clubhouse lane



I entered your zip into www.fccinfo.com to see if there were any nearby towers,

because antennaweb.org overlooks many so-called "Low Power" stations.


Closest tower is about 35 miles, so a Preamp is suitable.....and highly recommended....

My concern is wrt whether or not the CM7775 has TOO much gain and may or may not

need to be attenuated a bit before it goes through the Distribution Preamp in the Eagle.

Of course, this is going to depend on how well the antenna pattern suppresses all of those "nearby" towers.


In Sep2005 I posted some spread sheets showing how to calculate various signal levels

with and without a Preamp, including a cascaded Preamp/Distro Amp configuration:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...sa#post6206737 

Yes, it's a bit of work, but can be simplified if you use the simple LOS path loss calculator

and add a swag for additional diffraction loss.


The original thread referencing the (FREE!!!) RADIO MOBILE Propagation Prediction Program

have been archived. Here is a link to the partially reconstructed thread:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1170794076


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...run a line direct from the antenna, preamp, to the tuner and see if you even get a digital signal. Then add the other stuff and see what happens.
> 
> 
> If the results are not satisfactory after adding the other electronics, a separate off air distribution system may be your only alternative.



I agree 100 percent. I'd probably run two dedicated lines for OTA even while you are doing it.


Plus, as Greywolf mentioned, depending on your Sat service diplexing may not work for long anyway.


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I agree 100 percent. I'd probably run two dedicated lines for OTA even while you are doing it.
> 
> 
> Plus, as Greywolf mentioned, depending on your Sat service diplexing may not work for long anyway.




I agree with cpcat and Greywolf. By running 2 dedicated RG-6Q line for OTA you could have 2 antenna and have 2 different pre-amp then combine inside or use a A/B switch. As newer Sat use some of the OTA band and beside the cost of running a dedicated coax for OTA would be cheaper and it give one less reason for the Sat co to ***** because it the OTA is hook up to the diplexer and causing the problem. Yes I understand it makes it easier to hook up but must remember the voltage is different and can harm or destroy the Sat receiver, Pre-amp and the TV.


It would be nice to have a thread somewhere to discuss pre-wiring a new house or in remodeling such as talk about how many coax run from the attic to distribution center and then from there to room outlet I would recommend adding CAT5 phone/Data line and now the Fiber line will be near so nice to pre-install them or use of conduit to add line later. I know there is forum on room construction but just for theater room not really about wiring the whole house.


----------



## tfjazz

Hi everyone,


I'm interested in buying an antenna for OTA HD only. I've been reading these forums and the HD primers for the past few weeks but I'm still a little lost as to how much antenna I need. A majority of the discussion is about UHF and most of my digital channels are VHF. My priorities would be to get ABC, CBS, and NBC. If getting the CW would require more equipment or significantly more work I can pass on it.


Anyways if someone could present me with a couple of different options I could go with that'd be great.


Here's the antennaweb info for my zipcode 89084.


* yellow - vhf KTNV-DT 13.1 ABC LAS VEGAS NV 149° 24.7 12

* yellow - uhf KINC-DT 15.1 UNI LAS VEGAS NV 149° 24.6 16

* yellow - vhf KLAS-DT 8.1 CBS LAS VEGAS NV 149° 24.7 7

* yellow - vhf KLVX-DT 10.1 PBS LAS VEGAS NV 141° 21.4 11

* yellow - vhf KVBC-DT 3.1 NBC LAS VEGAS NV 140° 21.3 2

* yellow - uhf KBLR-DT 40.1 TEL PARADISE NV 140° 21.3 40

* red - uhf KVMY-DT 21.1 MNT LAS VEGAS NV 141° 21.4 22

* red - uhf KVCW-DT 33.1 CW LAS VEGAS NV 141° 21.4 29


thanks


----------



## PhantomOG

my zip is 78749. I'm getting DishHD-DVR setup next week and I'd like to know which antenna to purchase for my local HD. Here's what Antenna web says for my address, digitals only:

* yellow - uhf KLRU-DT 18.1 PBS AUSTIN TX 21° 9.9 22

* yellow - uhf KEYE-DT 42.1 CBS AUSTIN TX 16° 9.6 43

* yellow - uhf KVUE-DT 24.1 ABC AUSTIN TX 16° 9.6 33

* red - uhf KXAN-DT 36.1 NBC AUSTIN TX 17° 9.9 21

* blue - vhf KCWX-DT 2.1 CW FREDERICKSBURG TX 01-09 260° 44.8 5

* violet - uhf KNVA-DT 54.1 CW AUSTIN TX 17° 9.9 49

* violet - vhf KAKW-DT 62.1 UNI KILLEEN TX 343° 37.5 13


Thanks for any help!


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PhantomOG* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> my zip is 78749. I'm getting DishHD-DVR setup next week and I'd like to know which antenna to purchase for my local HD. Here's what Antenna web says for my address, digitals only:
> 
> * yellow - uhf KLRU-DT 18.1 PBS AUSTIN TX 21° 9.9 22
> 
> * yellow - uhf KEYE-DT 42.1 CBS AUSTIN TX 16° 9.6 43
> 
> * yellow - uhf KVUE-DT 24.1 ABC AUSTIN TX 16° 9.6 33
> 
> * red - uhf KXAN-DT 36.1 NBC AUSTIN TX 17° 9.9 21
> 
> * blue - vhf KCWX-DT 2.1 CW FREDERICKSBURG TX 01-09 260° 44.8 5
> 
> * violet - uhf KNVA-DT 54.1 CW AUSTIN TX 17° 9.9 49
> 
> * violet - vhf KAKW-DT 62.1 UNI KILLEEN TX 343° 37.5 13
> 
> 
> Thanks for any help!



If you can live without KAKW-DT (and KCWX-DT, which is a duplicate CW channel), I'd just attach an Antennas Direct DB2 to the dish arm, point it at about 18 degrees, and leave it at that. Barring any major obstructions to the signal path, that would be about the simplest thing to do. 10 miles out is a stone's throw, if you have a reasonably clear shot.


It's always best to run it in on it's own, separate line, but the installer can try to diplex it into the satellite line and see if that's good enough first. The DB4 is larger and has more gain, but you'll have to make sure the arm is sturdy enough first. Otherwise, just get the DB4 and install it separate from the dish arm. Or better yet, go with the Channel Master 4221.


----------



## waporvare

I got the equipment today and just did a ground level check. I couldn't pick up a Memphis local going direct to the receiver, but I had already figured as much considering I know I need to be on the roof to clear the treeline that is a few hundred yards away from me. I did pick up a digital from MO, KBSI in Cape Girardeau. It is only 9 KM closer than the Memphis channels. So hopefully Memphis won't be a problem once I get the antenna mounted 30' in the air. Most likely I'll bypass the multiswitch and run a new line. Sigh...


If I do manage to get the Memphis locals, how do I get the correct guide data, for the HR10-250, considering it is out of my local market? Can the receiver have two zip codes to draw OTA data from?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *waporvare* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I do manage to get the Memphis locals, how do I get the correct guide data, for the HR10-250, considering it is out of my local market? Can the receiver have two zip codes to draw OTA data from?




You won't regret the dedicated line. Like I said, run two while you're at it.


Sorry to tell you this, but the HR10-250 doesn't have the best rep for an OTA receiver. I've not used it myself.


For long distance, the best D* receivers will be the older models aka HTL-HD, LST3100a, Sony Sat300. The H10 is also decent. The H20 is better than the H10 but not quite as sensitive as the HTL-HD/LST3100a/Sat 300. I don't know much about the OTA performance on the new HR20.


The guide data comes from the satellite. You can enter more than one zip code and depending on just how you do it you can receive guide info from multiple markets.


----------



## waporvare

I know this is a stupid question but, where do you enter the multiple zip codes at? I can't find it.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tfjazz* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm interested in buying an antenna for OTA HD only. I've been reading these forums and the HD primers for the past few weeks but I'm still a little lost as to how much antenna I need. A majority of the discussion is about UHF and most of my digital channels are VHF. My priorities would be to get ABC, CBS, and NBC. If getting the CW would require more equipment or significantly more work I can pass on it.
> 
> 
> Anyways if someone could present me with a couple of different options I could go with that'd be great.
> 
> 
> Here's the antennaweb info for my zipcode 89084.
> 
> 
> * yellow - vhf KTNV-DT 13.1 ABC LAS VEGAS NV 149° 24.7 12
> 
> * yellow - uhf KINC-DT 15.1 UNI LAS VEGAS NV 149° 24.6 16
> 
> * yellow - vhf KLAS-DT 8.1 CBS LAS VEGAS NV 149° 24.7 7
> 
> * yellow - vhf KLVX-DT 10.1 PBS LAS VEGAS NV 141° 21.4 11
> 
> * yellow - vhf KVBC-DT 3.1 NBC LAS VEGAS NV 140° 21.3 2
> 
> * yellow - uhf KBLR-DT 40.1 TEL PARADISE NV 140° 21.3 40
> 
> * red - uhf KVMY-DT 21.1 MNT LAS VEGAS NV 141° 21.4 22
> 
> * red - uhf KVCW-DT 33.1 CW LAS VEGAS NV 141° 21.4 29



Are you looking for an indoor, attic, or outdoor antenna setup? Looking up the FCC database on KVCW-DT ( http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=KVCW ), there are 2 entries for the digital signal: a 4.9 kW low power STA and a full power 1000 kW entry. Antennaweb is likely using the 4.9 kW power level in it's color codes. Check the Las Vegas locals thread to find out the status of the station. If the station is at 1000 kW, you should have little trouble picking it up.


Given that all the stations are yellow or red, in the same direction, and 21 miles, an indoor setup might work, but rabbit ears at 21 miles is iffy. (You could try a basic VHF rabbit ear and UHF loop antenna that you can find at almost any electronic store just to see what stations you can get). With the low VHF and UHF stations, a standard medium range VHF/UHF antenna is your best bet. Look at the Winegard 7078p, Channel Master 3677, Radio Shack stuff. Getting all your stations should not be a problem.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PhantomOG* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> my zip is 78749. I'm getting DishHD-DVR setup next week and I'd like to know which antenna to purchase for my local HD. Here's what Antenna web says for my address, digitals only:



I noticed that there was no Fox station on your list, but there is a Fox affiliate in Austin: KTBC-DT Fox 7 (DT = 56). According to wikipedia, the station is at full power of 1000 kW, so you should be able to receive it. Antennaweb is probably using the old low power level of a mere 0.8 kW in it's computations. BTW, KTBC-DT will be switching it's digital signal to VHF 7 in 2009 after the analog shutdown.


Rammitinski suggestions are good ones. However, you are only 9 miles away, so an Silver Sensor indoor UHF antenna may get all the stations. But DB2 or CM 4221 mounted outdoors would do the trick. You might to add a upper VHF antenna in 2009, although I expect a CM 4221 will get a digital VHF 7 at 10 miles.


----------



## SlumLord1701

I'm kinda new at this so I would like some help. I have access to a 4228 and 7777 with rotator from a friend I would like to receive the following channels.


According to antennaweb for my zip 43605 I should receive the following..

* yellow - uhf WGTE-DT 30.1 PBS TOLEDO OH 68° 5.6 29

* yellow - uhf WTOL-DT 11.1 CBS TOLEDO OH 70° 8.5 17

* yellow - uhf WNWO-DT 24.1 NBC Toledo OH 76° 9.4 49

* yellow - uhf WUPW-DT 36.1 FOX TOLEDO OH 65° 5.0 46

* red - uhf WTVG-DT 13.1 ABC TOLEDO OH 59° 7.4 19

The above are listed under "digital only". The following channels are listed under analog only for my zip. I checked under a different zip closer to Detroit just to see if they had digital channels and they showed up with the same compass orientation and distance as the analog ones. The following specs are analog under my zip with the Digital Channel # and Frequency assignment from alternate zip in parenthesies.


violet - uhf WKBD 50 CW DETROIT MI 17° 60.7 50 (dig is 50.1 w/FreqAssn of 14)

blue - uhf WMYD 20 MNT DETROIT MI 24° 60.1 20 (dig is 20.1 W/ FreqAssn of 21)

Is possible to receive either of these with this setup or will I need to meke some modifications? Another dumb newbe question does it matter what type of cable you use? I'm assuming rg6 but do you need quad shield and does aluminum or copper braid make a difference? When running the ground wire from antenna to ground rod is any particular gauge suggested. Thanks in advance to all of you All Knowing Oracle's for your kind help and guidance.


----------



## cpcat

You have to go into intial setup for my HTL-HD and H10. The H20 has a separate menu for it. Like I said, I don't have the HR10-250 so if you still can't find it maybe try the DVR forum/owner's thread for that model.


----------



## greywolf

Rerun guided setup.


From the manual


Setup Local Network Areas. (Only appears if you selected Satellite and off-air antenna

as your program source.) Your local network areas are used to acquire program

information for your off-air antenna channels. If you completed Guided Setup, your

primary network area has already been set, based on the ZIP code you entered. Setting the

secondary network area is optional. You should do so if you live very near another major

TV market city which broadcasts off-air channels your antenna can receive.


Menu/Messages and Settings/Settings/Channels/Off-Air Channels/Setup Local Network Areas/


----------



## AntAltMike

If someone inadvertently adds an off-air channel, is there any way to remove them from the guide one by one, rather than doing a master reset? I have one customer who has some non-existent channels entered into his guide (like 51.11) because of ham-handed use of a buttonless, Crestron remote, and I have another who entered a few zip codes from other areas of the country where he had previously lived, but if I do a master reset, I'm concerned that it will wipe out his DVR recording schedule.


----------



## greywolf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If someone inadvertently adds an off-air channel, is there any way to remove them from the guide one by one,



Menu/Messages and Settings/Settings/Channels/Off-Air Channels/Channel List


----------



## PhantomOG




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> However, you are only 9 miles away, so an Silver Sensor indoor UHF antenna may get all the stations.



Thanks for your help. I can't seem to find a place to buy a silver sensor, so after the install next week I'm thinking about buying this from Circuit City.

Phillips PHDTV1 UHF Antenna 


Hopefully it will work as well.


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PhantomOG* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for your help. I can't seem to find a place to buy a silver sensor, so after the install next week I'm thinking about buying this from Circuit City.
> 
> Phillips PHDTV1 UHF Antenna
> 
> 
> Hopefully it will work as well.





Siliver Sensor goes under few different names can't remember all name brands but Philips PHDTV1 is one of it. Zenith is the original brand. But stay away from Terk they just a copycat of Siliver Sensor and way overpriced. Circuit City would be the place should cost around $25.00.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PhantomOG* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for your help. I can't seem to find a place to buy a silver sensor, so after the install next week I'm thinking about buying this from Circuit City.
> 
> Phillips PHDTV1 UHF Antenna
> 
> 
> Hopefully it will work as well.



That is the "official" Silver Sensor.


That's the one you want.


----------



## PhantomOG

Doh! Didn't even notice the product page does say Silver Sensor.










But wait! Its out of stock online, and in all 3 stores within 15 miles of me










Hopefully they'll get some in stock before my install on Wednesday.


----------



## NYSmoker

I just picked one (Silver Sensor) up today at Circuit City. I am in Queens, NY, 6.2 miles from the ESB. I live on the 1st floor of a two family house. I'm hoping it works well.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SlumLord1701* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm kinda new at this so I would like some help. I have access to a 4228 and 7777 with rotator from a friend I would like to receive the following channels.
> 
> 
> According to antennaweb for my zip 43605 I should receive the following..
> 
> * yellow - uhf WGTE-DT 30.1 PBS TOLEDO OH 68° 5.6 29
> 
> * yellow - uhf WTOL-DT 11.1 CBS TOLEDO OH 70° 8.5 17
> 
> * yellow - uhf WNWO-DT 24.1 NBC Toledo OH 76° 9.4 49
> 
> * yellow - uhf WUPW-DT 36.1 FOX TOLEDO OH 65° 5.0 46
> 
> * red - uhf WTVG-DT 13.1 ABC TOLEDO OH 59° 7.4 19
> 
> The above are listed under "digital only". The following channels are listed under analog only for my zip. I checked under a different zip closer to Detroit just to see if they had digital channels and they showed up with the same compass orientation and distance as the analog ones. The following specs are analog under my zip with the Digital Channel # and Frequency assignment from alternate zip in parenthesies.
> 
> 
> violet - uhf WKBD 50 CW DETROIT MI 17° 60.7 50 (dig is 50.1 w/FreqAssn of 14)
> 
> blue - uhf WMYD 20 MNT DETROIT MI 24° 60.1 20 (dig is 20.1 W/ FreqAssn of 21)
> 
> Is possible to receive either of these with this setup or will I need to meke some modifications? Another dumb newbe question does it matter what type of cable you use? I'm assuming rg6 but do you need quad shield and does aluminum or copper braid make a difference? When running the ground wire from antenna to ground rod is any particular gauge suggested. Thanks in advance to all of you All Knowing Oracle's for your kind help and guidance.



Whew, complicated situation. For your local digital stations in Toledo, the CM 4228 is normally severe overkill for stations at only 5 to 9 miles. I looked up on wikipedia the affiliates for CW and My Network. Toledo has a low power analog only station for MNT and a cable only analog CW "station". The CW network does offer some decent HD program, but I have to admit that My Network at this time is not something I would put much effort into being able to get in HD.


If you have not done so, you should check with the Toledo local thread to see whether others in your area can get the Detroit CW and MNT stations.


You could put up the CM 4228 and aim it at Detroit. Your locals are so close that the CM4228 might pick them up in the sidelobes. But the pre-amp may overload with stations so close by. If you really want to do this, put up the CM 4228 outdoors or upstairs with a temporary mount and no pre-amp, and see what stations you can get. You should be able to get the Toledo digital stations with a Silver Sensor. One possibility is a two antenna setup with the Silver Sensor indoors, a CM 4228 on the roof for the Detroit stations, and a A/B switch.


Looking at the Detroit stations, the wikipedia entry for WKBD-TV ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WKBD-TV ) has a link to the FCC database. WKBD-DT CW 50 (DT=14) is not showing up on antennaweb because it is operating at either 58.7 kW or 200 kW. Depending on the elevation of your house and the terrain, you may have a hard time getting that station at 60 miles. The WMYD-DT MNT station in Detroit is at 500 kW.


If you can borrow a CM 4228, try some experiments with it by setting it upstairs near a window or outside and try aiming it at different stations. If you are willing to spend $25, get a Silver Sensor for testing your local station reception.


As for the cabling, you want to get good quality RG-6, quad shielded is fine. BTW, RG-6 is cheaper at places such as Lowes or Home Depot than at Best Buy or Circuit City as the electronic chain stores have taken to seriously marking up cables.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SlumLord1701* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Another dumb newbe question does it matter what type of cable you use? I'm assuming rg6 but do you need quad shield and does aluminum or copper braid make a difference? When running the ground wire from antenna to ground rod is any particular gauge suggested. Thanks in advance to all of you All Knowing Oracle's for your kind help and guidance.



Type of RG6 doesn't matter. Whether to add quad shielding probably doesn't matter in most situations but doesn't hurt either.


Technically, you should ground to your house ground, not a grounding rod. If using a grounding rod, it (the grounding rod) should be bonded to the house ground with #6 copper.

The size of the wire from the antenna to the ground depends on the wire type. As I recall, it's at least 14g copper and 10g aluminum.


----------



## needhelpguy

I started with a cheapie radio shack antenna and got all ota hd signals in the charlotte nc area. BUT....no sound for ABC. got a more expensive radio shack antenna and same thing! the radio shack guy had no clue what might cause this. anybody got any ideas. the hdtv is a 50" rear projection toshiba tv bought this year.


thx for listening.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *needhelpguy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I started with a cheapie radio shack antenna and got all ota hd signals in the charlotte nc area. BUT....no sound for ABC. got a more expensive radio shack antenna and same thing! the radio shack guy had no clue what might cause this. anybody got any ideas. the hdtv is a 50" rear projection toshiba tv bought this year.



If you are getting the picture for a station, but not the sound, the problem is not with the antenna. Both sound and video are part of the same digital data stream.


Do a re-scan and check the sound settings on the receiver and TV. You should ask in the Charlotte, NC or closest to locals thread about if there are known issues with the local ABC broadcast.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you are getting the picture for a station, but not the sound, the problem is not with the antenna.



True. When our local ABC station first started trying to broadcast DTV a few years ago, there were times when I got audio or video without the other. But, it was always becase of a broadcast equipment problem. Never my antenna.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Both sound and video are part of the same digital data stream.



Aren't the audio and video sub-carriers transmitted just a few Mhz apart? I know they are with analog, not sure about digital.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Aren't the audio and video sub-carriers transmitted just a few Mhz apart? I know they are with analog, not sure about digital.



Although they share the same 6 MHz bandwidth and channel assignments, digital ATSC 8-VSB transmission is very different from analog. See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/what_is_ATSC.html if you want some technical discussion.


----------



## delpis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *delpis* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> hi would like help on choosing the right antenna and rg6 cable. the antenna will be used indoors. my zipcode is 02171. any other stuff you need to know, just ask.
> 
> 
> i was told by 1 member to get the radio shack u-75r. is that the best choice?
> 
> 
> then i need to get an rg6 cable and i don't know how to choose one. double or quad shielded? CSS or copper center? how long? could i just get one from monoprice.com or is Belden the better choice for a few dollars more? if Belden, which one do i get from Here



anyone? i want to watch in the comfort of my own home instead of driving 38 min to a friends house.


----------



## Neil L

Yes, it's understood that ATSC and NTSC are different. With NTSC, on channel 24 for example, the 6Mhz frequency range is 530-536Mhz, the video is centered on 531.25Mhz, the chroma at 534.8295Mhz and the audio at 535.75Mhz. What I'm not clear on is how the 6Mhz band is used with ATSC. Is there really just a transport stream that carreis all audio and video info in one package? Google has not given me the answer yet. I'm just curious, don't really need to know.


----------



## steverichmond




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *delpis* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> anyone? i want to watch in the comfort of my own home instead of driving 38 min to a friends house.



Since I only had your zip code to go by, I would think a antennadirect db4 would do the job. All the digital channels in your area are uhf so a all uhf antenna will do nicely. You said indoors, are you thinking attic? Do you have any hills or structures blocking the boston direction?


Steve


----------



## woodsmith

I live in Hamden, Ct and just purchased a new Sony 40V2500. I would like to get the free HD local channels. Will an indoor antenna be fine? What type of wire hookup will it wind uo being? Thanks for ther help. Woodsmith


----------



## delpis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *steverichmond* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Since I only had your zip code to go by, I would think a antennadirect db4 would do the job. All the digital channels in your area are uhf so a all uhf antenna will do nicely. You said indoors, are you thinking attic? Do you have any hills or structures blocking the boston direction?
> 
> 
> Steve



any additional info can i give u that would be more help? it will be used in my bedroom. i don't think there are any hills, but possibly some structures.


my previous antenna was the ZHDTV1 (silver sensor). it didn't work that well. if i put it in one direction, i couldn't get all the channels without signal loss. so whenever i wanted to watch a specific channel, i would have to keep moving it around until i found the sweet spot. even then the signal would drop for a few seconds.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *woodsmith* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live in Hamden, Ct and just purchased a new Sony 40V2500. I would like to get the free HD local channels. Will an indoor antenna be fine? What type of wire hookup will it wind uo being? Thanks for ther help. Woodsmith



So your zip code is 06518? Do you live at a higher elevation or down in a valley? There are some hills in that part of CT if I'm not mistaken. You are not far from the New Haven stations however, so an indoor antenna should work for those. But looking at antennaweb, most of the network stations are further away in Waterbury / New Britain or Hartford. Which city or cities are you interested in getting digital reception for?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yes, it's understood that ATSC and NTSC are different. With NTSC, on channel 24 for example, the 6Mhz frequency range is 530-536Mhz, the video is centered on 531.25Mhz, the chroma at 534.8295Mhz and the audio at 535.75Mhz. What I'm not clear on is how the 6Mhz band is used with ATSC. Is there really just a transport stream that carreis all audio and video info in one package? Google has not given me the answer yet. I'm just curious, don't really need to know.



As you can see from the above ATSC description--it's verry, verrry complicated.

Because it's digital, with a single, serial stream of ones and zeros, there must be a hierarchy of structure,

including error detection and correction schemes and various data labeling (PSIP) schemes.


One ATSC channel can contain several different data streams, some of which are MPEG2 and some

of which can be other things, such as downloads to Moviebeam type systems, firmware updates

to suitably equipped HDTVs or data broadcasts to commercial users.


MPEG2 data streams contain a compressed digital video data stream and (in general) can contain about

a dozen digital audio data channels. ATSC supports a single Primary DD5.1 data stream

and a Secondary (SAP) Stereo data stream.


ATSC (i.e. 8-VSB) begins as a carrier (the "Pilot" frequency) which is amplitude modulated with

8 levels of digital amplitude (each carrying 3-bits of information). The lower sideband is then

partially filtered off, leaving what is called the "Vestigial Sideband". This explains why most of the

energy is contained above the "Pilot" frequency.


----------



## SlumLord1701

I just wanted to say thanks to afiggatt and cpcat for your help!


----------



## buckiii1

Ok finally getting around to post about this antenna. Bought it from Solid Signal. They have a 30 day return policy. My current antenna was a Zenith Gemini. I live in San Antonio, Tx and I am about 26 miles from the TV towers. I could not receive channels 9-1, 9-2, 9-3 and 9-4, PBS channels. I e-mailed PBS and found out they were VHF. I also found out that my antenna is for UHF. I also was not picking up channels 16-1, 16-2, 16-3, 16-4 and 16-5, the church channels. After I had done a lot of internet research I decided to give the HDX1000 made by Antenna Craft a try. The first time I mounted it (roof) I could only get 6 channels. I was very disappointed and was getting ready to return it. This was on a Friday evening. I figured I would e-mail Solid Signal to see if they had any suggestions. They e-mailed me back Monday. They suggested that I remove all splitters. So Monday evening after work I crawled back on the roof to give it another try, I had already removed it. This time it pulled in every available DT channel in my area, signal stregth is 76 to 82! I am now a happy camper. By the way you can have splitters but they have to be after the power supply. I paid $69.00 for this antenna. It is very light and easy to mount. The antenna also picks up analog channels fairly well. Happy with it so far.

Report Post


----------



## Rick0725

looks similar to this radio shack

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search 

http://www.antennacraft.net/HDX1000.htm


----------



## woodsmith

I am trying to get the locals such as ABC,CBS,NBC,FOX. Thanks for the help. I am looking at a Terk HDTVi antenna. Any feelings about those? Thanks


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> looks similar to this radio shack
> 
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search
> 
> http://www.antennacraft.net/HDX1000.htm




Yes the Radio Shack is the same as antennacraft as most of the outside antenna is built by antennacraft and some are built by Winegard but they are made to Radio Shack specs so it may look the same sometime with cheaper materials. or just little different designs or colors.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *woodsmith* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am trying to get the locals such as ABC,CBS,NBC,FOX. Thanks for the help. I am looking at a Terk HDTVi antenna. Any feelings about those? Thanks



What is your zip code (again)? Are you located at a high elevation or down in a valley? Do you live in a house or in a condo/apartment?


----------



## woodsmith

My zip is 06517. I live on a level area with a noticable valley closer to New Haven easterly. I live in a 2 story house. If possible I would like tyo get a indoor antenna but will do an outside if I need to. The DISH sat system is regular not HD and for the cost of just getting 25 stations I would just as soon wait another year till my contract runs out and go back to Direct TV. DISH dosen't even offer the locals in HD. I think all basic stations ABC,CBS,NBC,and FOX are all being broadcast in HD. Thanks for all the help. I just want to get the most out of new Sony 40V2500.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *woodsmith* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My zip is 06517. I live on a level area with a noticable valley closer to New Haven easterly. I live in a 2 story house. If possible I would like tyo get a indoor antenna but will do an outside if I need to. The DISH sat system is regular not HD and for the cost of just getting 25 stations I would just as soon wait another year till my contract runs out and go back to Direct TV. DISH dosen't even offer the locals in HD. I think all basic stations ABC,CBS,NBC,and FOX are all being broadcast in HD.



You have the major stations in a spread of 35 degrees in azimuth to the north and ranging from 5 to 30 miles from the center of your zip. Two of the stations are digitally broadcasting on upper VHF, so you need a setup that cover UHF and upper VHF.


Plugging your zip and an antenna height of 250' under options to make up for the random zip code location & to get a more complete list of digital stations, the edited results are [deleting the independents and SD only nets]:

* yellow - uhf WCTX-DT 59.1 MNT NEW HAVEN CT 350° 5.5 39

* yellow - uhf WEDW-DT 49.1 PBS BRIDGEPORT CT 265° 15.1 52

* yellow - vhf WTNH-DT 10.1 ABC NEW HAVEN CT 350° 5.5 10

* blue - uhf WVIT-DT 30.1 NBC NEW BRITAIN CT 23° 24.6 35

* blue - vhf WTXX-DT 20.1 CW WATERBURY CT 23° 24.8 12

* violet - uhf WFSB-DT 3.1 CBS HARTFORD CT 24° 29.9 33

* violet - uhf WEDH-DT 45 PBS HARTFORD CT 23° 24.8 45

* violet - uhf WTIC-DT 31.1 FOX HARTFORD CT 23° 24.8 31


The last number on each row is the digital broadcast channel for the station, which is a critical bit of info. The Terk HDTVi is questionable for the stations at 25 to 30 miles, but you can buy it locally and give it a shot. However you are likely to end up looking at an outdoor or attic mounted antenna. The Channel Master 4221 4 Bay is a good option for the UHF stations and should get the WTNH-DT ABC (VHF 10) station at 5 miles. However the WTXX-DT CW 20 on VHF 12 at 25 miles is a poor bet for the CM 4221. Another option is a conventional short/medium range VHF/UHF antenna which is not too directional.


PS Check the Hartford, New Haven OTA thread for info on the local stations and what antennas people are using in your area: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=315169


----------



## woodsmith

Thank you for your help. Do you think that a omnidirectional antenna indoor antenna from Radio Shack would work? They have one for about $50.00 that looks good. Or any other indoor from Radio Shack? The reason why is that I can return the item if I need to get a outside one.


----------



## mentho

If anybody has the time I could use some help choosing an antenna for my situation. I live in Seattle, WA, less than three miles from all the of stations I'd like to receive. You'd think this would be simple, but i live in an apartment that on the ground floor and there's another fairly large apartment building between me and the antennas -- so I have no LoS. I bought this antenna at Target over the weekend, thinking i wouldn't need much to pick up the stations, but i was wrong. I get really spotty reception of 4, 5 and 7 (which are the ones I want) and great reception of 9 and 11 (which I don't care about much.) I only care about DTV reception. The reception I get is really finicky, I have to have the antenna in just the right spot and the loop angled just the right way to bring them in. The broadcast for Fox 13 is much farther away from me and I've yet to get it at all.


I might be able to mount an antenna outside if I need to but I won't be able to get it above the apartment building that's blocking my LoS.


Anybody have suggestions for me?


Here's my antennaweb info:


* yellow - uhf KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS SEATTLE WA 142° 2.8 41

* yellow - uhf KMYQ-DT 22.1 MNT SEATTLE WA 142° 2.8 25

* yellow - uhf KONG-DT 16.1 IND EVERETT WA 195° 1.9 31

* yellow - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 199° 1.9 38

* yellow - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 195° 1.9 48

* yellow - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE WA 204° 1.9 39

* yellow - uhf KWDK-DT 42.1 DAY TACOMA WA 104° 19.7 42

* yellow - uhf KWPX-DT 33.1 ION BELLEVUE WA 104° 19.7 32

* green - uhf KWOG-DT 51.1 IND BELLEVUE WA 103° 19.7 50

* blue - uhf KCPQ-DT 13.1 FOX TACOMA WA 234° 23.4 18

* blue - uhf KSTW-DT 11.1 CW TACOMA WA 143° 2.9 36

* violet - uhf KHCV-DT 44.1 SAH SEATTLE WA 104° 19.7 44


----------



## texasbrit

Mentho - it's a challenge for sure. The stations you do get are at 142/143 degrees, the ones you want are at 195/204 degrees.


First, you could try the Silver Sensor unamplified antenna http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PM-HDT.../dp/B00022O9VM , you can often get it at Circuit City. In general, this is probably the best UHF indoor antenna. It is pretty directional so if you point it at 200 degrees you may not get any of the stations at 142. If you don't get anything at 200 degrees, just change the direction of the antenna and it's possible you will pick up reflections of the signal at a completely different angle.


If that does not work you should try the CM4221. It's an outside antenna but it is flat and fairly small and many people have used it indoors. If that does not work either indoors or out then I'm not sure what will.


----------



## andy.s.lee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *woodsmith* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My zip is 06517. I live on a level area with a noticable valley closer to New Haven easterly. I live in a 2 story house. If possible I would like tyo get a indoor antenna but will do an outside if I need to. The DISH sat system is regular not HD and for the cost of just getting 25 stations I would just as soon wait another year till my contract runs out and go back to Direct TV. DISH dosen't even offer the locals in HD. I think all basic stations ABC,CBS,NBC,and FOX are all being broadcast in HD. Thanks for all the help. I just want to get the most out of new Sony 40V2500.




The strongest channels in your area are to the north and to the south. The attached radar plot shows the actual broadcast channel numbers for each of the transmitters. Longer bars indicate stronger channels. Shorter bars in the red zone are generally too weak to pick up unless you get a really good outdoor directional antenna pointed at them.


Here are more detailed stats about the local transmitters:
Code:


Code:


Callsgn Channel Type    Rx_dBm  Latitude        Longitude       RCAMSL  HAAT    Path    Dist    Azimuth Freq    Tx_EIRP
WCTX    59      (A)     -29.9   41.42301        -72.95100       524.9   314.0   LOS     8.9     338.5   741.26  5000.000
WTNH    8       (A)     -32.3   41.42301        -72.95100       574.9   364.0   LOS     8.9     338.5   181.25  174.000
WNHX-LP 51      (A)     -34.4   41.32843        -72.90649       126.0   54.1    LOS     2.3     169.0   693.24  93.699
WEDY    6       (D)     -42.3   41.32843        -72.90649       130.7   58.8    LOS     2.3     169.0   82.31   0.400
WTXX    20      (A)     -45.1   41.51781        -73.01860       586.9   366.0   LOS     20.9    334.7   507.25  2240.000
WEDY    65      (A)     -46.1   41.32843        -72.90649       133.0   61.1    LOS     2.3     169.0   777.25  7.940
WCTX    39      (D)     -47.5   41.42301        -72.95100       511.9   301.0   LOS     8.9     338.5   620.31  61.828
WTNH    10      (D)     -48.1   41.42301        -72.95100       552.9   342.0   LOS     8.9     338.5   192.31  5.228
WVIT    30      (A)     -69.9   41.70080        -72.83201       672.1   451.0   1Edge   39.8    9.6     567.26  3023.662
WSAH    43      (A)     -70.7   41.36204        -73.11289       271.3   76.2    2Edge   16.9    275.2   645.24  1347.836
WTIC-TV 61      (A)     -72.1   41.70362        -72.83166       700.7   506.0   1Edge   40.2    9.6     753.26  5000.000
WEDW    49      (A)     -72.2   41.27871        -73.18511       307.0   146.3   1Edge   24.1    251.2   681.24  1883.557
WSAH    42      (D)     -72.5   41.36204        -73.11289       284.5   89.4    2Edge   16.9    275.2   638.31  780.000
W28AJ   28      (A)     -77.6   41.29149        -72.96705       98.0    50.8    1Edge   7.8     216.1   555.25  2.366
WUVN    18      (A)     -80.6   41.77501        -72.80051       515.4   299.0   1Edge   48.5    11.0    495.24  3160.000
WFSB    3       (A)     -81.2   41.77510        -72.80510       358.1   140.1   2Edge   48.4    10.6    61.26   100.000
WFTY-TV 67      (A)     -81.8   40.88975        -72.95313       257.3   219.0   2Edge   51.2    183.9   788.25  2496.912
WVIT    35      (D)     -84.6   41.70080        -72.83201       655.1   434.0   1Edge   39.8    9.6     596.31  144.780
WTXX    12      (D)     -90.4   41.70362        -72.83166       390.7   196.0   1Edge   40.2    9.6     204.31  16.332
WEDH    24      (A)     -91.3   41.77425        -72.80497       742.2   517.0   1Edge   48.3    10.6    531.25  56.671
WTIC-TV 31      (D)     -91.3   41.70362        -72.83166       700.7   506.0   1Edge   40.2    9.6     572.31  18.661
WEDW    52      (D)     -91.3   41.27899        -73.18511       273.2   113.2   1Edge   24.1    251.3   698.31  41.257
WCBS-TV 2       (A)     -91.6   40.74843        -73.98569       430.1   389.0   1Edge   111.8   233.3   55.25   45.000
WEDH    45      (D)     -92.9   41.70362        -72.83166       699.7   505.0   1Edge   40.2    9.6     656.31  22.835
WNBC    4       (A)     -95.3   40.74844        -73.98569       452.0   410.9   1Edge   111.8   233.3   67.25   30.000
WFSB    33      (D)     -95.7   41.77510        -72.80510       375.8   157.8   2Edge   48.4    10.6    584.31  998.114
WNYW    5       (A)     -97.8   40.74843        -73.98569       378.6   337.5   1Edge   111.8   233.3   77.25   30.000


Channels at the top are strong, channels at the bottom are weak. Distance is given in km. This info takes into account the transmitter's power (Tx_EIRP) and terrain (mountain blockage), but does not take into account any buildings. Terrain and transmitter directions are highly dependent on exact location, so a more accurate reading can be generated for specific coordinates. The center of the zip code 06517 was used to generate this table.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *andy.s.lee* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The strongest channels in your area are to the north and to the south. The attached radar plot shows the actual broadcast channel numbers for each of the transmitters. Longer bars indicate stronger channels. Shorter bars in the red zone are generally too weak to pick up unless you get a really good outdoor directional antenna pointed at them.
> 
> 
> Here are more detailed stats about the local transmitters:
> Code:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Callsgn Channel Type    Rx_dBm  Latitude        Longitude       RCAMSL  HAAT    Path    Dist    Azimuth Freq    Tx_EIRP
> WCTX    59      (A)     -29.9   41.42301        -72.95100       524.9   314.0   LOS     8.9     338.5   741.26  5000.000
> WTNH    8       (A)     -32.3   41.42301        -72.95100       574.9   364.0   LOS     8.9     338.5   181.25  174.000
> WNHX-LP 51      (A)     -34.4   41.32843        -72.90649       126.0   54.1    LOS     2.3     169.0   693.24  93.699
> WEDY    6       (D)     -42.3   41.32843        -72.90649       130.7   58.8    LOS     2.3     169.0   82.31   0.400
> WTXX    20      (A)     -45.1   41.51781        -73.01860       586.9   366.0   LOS     20.9    334.7   507.25  2240.000
> WEDY    65      (A)     -46.1   41.32843        -72.90649       133.0   61.1    LOS     2.3     169.0   777.25  7.940
> WCTX    39      (D)     -47.5   41.42301        -72.95100       511.9   301.0   LOS     8.9     338.5   620.31  61.828
> WTNH    10      (D)     -48.1   41.42301        -72.95100       552.9   342.0   LOS     8.9     338.5   192.31  5.228
> WVIT    30      (A)     -69.9   41.70080        -72.83201       672.1   451.0   1Edge   39.8    9.6     567.26  3023.662
> WSAH    43      (A)     -70.7   41.36204        -73.11289       271.3   76.2    2Edge   16.9    275.2   645.24  1347.836
> WTIC-TV 61      (A)     -72.1   41.70362        -72.83166       700.7   506.0   1Edge   40.2    9.6     753.26  5000.000
> WEDW    49      (A)     -72.2   41.27871        -73.18511       307.0   146.3   1Edge   24.1    251.2   681.24  1883.557
> WSAH    42      (D)     -72.5   41.36204        -73.11289       284.5   89.4    2Edge   16.9    275.2   638.31  780.000
> W28AJ   28      (A)     -77.6   41.29149        -72.96705       98.0    50.8    1Edge   7.8     216.1   555.25  2.366
> WUVN    18      (A)     -80.6   41.77501        -72.80051       515.4   299.0   1Edge   48.5    11.0    495.24  3160.000
> WFSB    3       (A)     -81.2   41.77510        -72.80510       358.1   140.1   2Edge   48.4    10.6    61.26   100.000
> WFTY-TV 67      (A)     -81.8   40.88975        -72.95313       257.3   219.0   2Edge   51.2    183.9   788.25  2496.912
> WVIT    35      (D)     -84.6   41.70080        -72.83201       655.1   434.0   1Edge   39.8    9.6     596.31  144.780
> WTXX    12      (D)     -90.4   41.70362        -72.83166       390.7   196.0   1Edge   40.2    9.6     204.31  16.332
> WEDH    24      (A)     -91.3   41.77425        -72.80497       742.2   517.0   1Edge   48.3    10.6    531.25  56.671
> WTIC-TV 31      (D)     -91.3   41.70362        -72.83166       700.7   506.0   1Edge   40.2    9.6     572.31  18.661
> WEDW    52      (D)     -91.3   41.27899        -73.18511       273.2   113.2   1Edge   24.1    251.3   698.31  41.257
> WCBS-TV 2       (A)     -91.6   40.74843        -73.98569       430.1   389.0   1Edge   111.8   233.3   55.25   45.000
> WEDH    45      (D)     -92.9   41.70362        -72.83166       699.7   505.0   1Edge   40.2    9.6     656.31  22.835
> WNBC    4       (A)     -95.3   40.74844        -73.98569       452.0   410.9   1Edge   111.8   233.3   67.25   30.000
> WFSB    33      (D)     -95.7   41.77510        -72.80510       375.8   157.8   2Edge   48.4    10.6    584.31  998.114
> WNYW    5       (A)     -97.8   40.74843        -73.98569       378.6   337.5   1Edge   111.8   233.3   77.25   30.000
> 
> 
> Channels at the top are strong, channels at the bottom are weak. Distance is given in km. This info takes into account the transmitter's power (Tx_EIRP) and terrain (mountain blockage), but does not take into account any buildings. Terrain and transmitter directions are highly dependent on exact location, so a more accurate reading can be generated for specific coordinates. The center of the zip code 06517 was used to generate this table.



Andy, what did you use to generate that table?

By the way the transmitter information seems to be based on what will happen after the build out of the WTIC tower on Rattlesnake Mountain is complete (except for WTXX-DT). WTIC-DT and WTXX-DT are not yet at the top of the tower and WEDH-DT is not expected to be on the air for many months.


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *delpis* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> any additional info can i give u that would be more help? it will be used in my bedroom. i don't think there are any hills, but possibly some structures.
> 
> 
> my previous antenna was the ZHDTV1 (silver sensor). it didn't work that well. if i put it in one direction, i couldn't get all the channels without signal loss. so whenever i wanted to watch a specific channel, i would have to keep moving it around until i found the sweet spot. even then the signal would drop for a few seconds.



Your best bet is a 4 bay bow-tie like the DB-4 or the Channelmaster CM-3021 (aka CM-4221) this will give you the most signal without having a too narrow horizontal beamwidth. The Channelmaster is an outdoor antenna but maybe you can find a place to put it where it won't look too bad. You can get the Channelmaster from starkelectronic.com in Worcester MA for $26 + $10 shipping which makes it a better buy than the DB-4:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/uhf.htm 

If that doesn't work well you could try adding a good pre-amp from Channelmaster or Winegard.


----------



## andy.s.lee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Andy, what did you use to generate that table?
> 
> By the way the transmitter information seems to be based on what will happen after the build out of the WTIC tower on Rattlesnake Mountain is complete (except for WTXX-DT). WTIC-DT and WTXX-DT are not yet at the top of the tower and WEDH-DT is not expected to be on the air for many months.



This information is based on (all data is downloadable for free):

1) The FCC database, available from ww.fcc.gov/mb/audio/tvq.html 

2) Antenna radiation patterns (also from FCC), available from ww.fcc.gov/mb/databases/querydata 

3) Terrain data, available from the Shuttle Radar Topography Mission (SRTM)

4) RF propagation modeling software based on the Longley-Rice Irregular Terrain Model


I develop RF propagation modeling software as part of my job and thought it might be useful here. Based on personal experience, I have found the antennaweb information to be too generic. Their radar plots don't seem to take any physics into account (tx power, terrain, etc.), plus on several occasions, I've found errors and omissions in their data. Compared to the (free) data I have available to me, my propagation models seem to give me more realistic expectations than antennaweb.


However, you are absolutely right that the information does not always reflect current reality. Most transmitters show up in the FCC database months before they are actually built and turned on. When the FCC grants a transmitter license, it may show up in their database immediately, yet it will take the broadcaster quite a while to install and test a new transmitter.


So, any simulation results will always have a few caveats:


- Just because something exists in the FCC database does not mean it exists in the real world. For the most part, the FCC database agrees about 95% of the time.


- The RF model uses SRTM terrain data to estimate propagation losses. This does not include any building information, so local building obstructions may alter the actual received signal levels.



I simply make this information available because I think the relative bar lengths are more useful than the plots available on antennaweb and I also believe I'm getting less false information by directly using the FCC data (although it's not perfect).


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mentho* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If anybody has the time I could use some help choosing an antenna for my situation. I live in Seattle, WA, less than three miles from all the of stations I'd like to receive. You'd think this would be simple, but i live in an apartment that on the ground floor and there's another fairly large apartment building between me and the antennas -- so I have no LoS. I bought this antenna at Target over the weekend, thinking i wouldn't need much to pick up the stations, but i was wrong. I get really spotty reception of 4, 5 and 7 (which are the ones I want) and great reception of 9 and 11 (which I don't care about much.) I only care about DTV reception. The reception I get is really finicky, I have to have the antenna in just the right spot and the loop angled just the right way to bring them in. The broadcast for Fox 13 is much farther away from me and I've yet to get it at all.
> 
> 
> I might be able to mount an antenna outside if I need to but I won't be able to get it above the apartment building that's blocking my LoS.
> 
> 
> Anybody have suggestions for me?
> 
> 
> Here's my antennaweb info:
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS SEATTLE WA 142° 2.8 41
> 
> * yellow - uhf KMYQ-DT 22.1 MNT SEATTLE WA 142° 2.8 25
> 
> * yellow - uhf KONG-DT 16.1 IND EVERETT WA 195° 1.9 31
> 
> * yellow - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 199° 1.9 38
> 
> * yellow - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 195° 1.9 48
> 
> * yellow - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE WA 204° 1.9 39
> 
> * yellow - uhf KWDK-DT 42.1 DAY TACOMA WA 104° 19.7 42
> 
> * yellow - uhf KWPX-DT 33.1 ION BELLEVUE WA 104° 19.7 32
> 
> * green - uhf KWOG-DT 51.1 IND BELLEVUE WA 103° 19.7 50
> 
> * blue - uhf KCPQ-DT 13.1 FOX TACOMA WA 234° 23.4 18
> 
> * blue - uhf KSTW-DT 11.1 CW TACOMA WA 143° 2.9 36
> 
> * violet - uhf KHCV-DT 44.1 SAH SEATTLE WA 104° 19.7 44



With the high power broadcast towers being right in your back yard,

your HDTV's receiver is already operating close to the overload point.

Using an AMPLIFIED antenna results in a double whammy--

the input of the Antenna's Preamp is overloaded,

and the gain in the Preamp results in even more overload to the HDTV receiver.


An unamplified Silver Sensor is a good choice to start with--

but the elements are unprotected from prying fingers.

You might also have success with a variety of other UNAMPLIFIED indoor antennas...


If we are to believe the blue color, antennaweb sez it's questionable whether you'll get FOX---

but why should nearby CW be a problem????

These stations are authorized for full power: 600 KW for FOX-HD and 850 KW for CW.

Maybe you can check your local thread to see if others have problems receiving these stations,


If they are received about same as other stations, it may be yet another problem in the

antennaweb.org database....In which case, the 4-Bay may be a bit of overkill....

So to prevent overload, you may need to try inserting a couple of RF Splitters (4 dB loss each)

on the HDTV's input....or a R-S Variable RF Attenuator.


My first choice for outdoor Four-Bay is CM-4221/4225/3021,

but you may find the reflector is just too ugly for indoor use:
http://www.summitsource.com/product_...oducts_id=5738 


For indoors, I would go with the Winegard PR-4400,

which is just a bunch of "sticks" you can hide....or hang with pride:
http://www.summitsource.com/product_...oducts_id=4596 

I've used both of these in a ground floor apt. with equal success...


----------



## woodsmith

OK, thanks for all the help. I tried an indoor antenna (Radio Shack UHF/VHF) and the channels came in great except they fluctuate too much. I believe I need a outdoor antenna which I would like to put on my existing Dish Sat pole. Any suggestions? HDTV really looks great once one gets it stabile. Too bad I can't use an indoor but can'y get CBS. Thanks


----------



## delpis




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deconvolver* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Your best bet is a 4 bay bow-tie like the DB-4 or the Channelmaster CM-3021 (aka CM-4221) this will give you the most signal without having a too narrow horizontal beamwidth. The Channelmaster is an outdoor antenna but maybe you can find a place to put it where it won't look too bad. You can get the Channelmaster from starkelectronic.com in Worcester MA for $26 + $10 shipping which makes it a better buy than the DB-4:
> http://www.starkelectronic.com/uhf.htm
> 
> If that doesn't work well you could try adding a good pre-amp from Channelmaster or Winegard.



thanks for the help. worcester is an hour away so i'll drive down and get the channel master. is there anything else i would need? cables, mount, etc?


----------



## andy.s.lee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mentho* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If anybody has the time I could use some help choosing an antenna for my situation. I live in Seattle, WA, less than three miles from all the of stations I'd like to receive. You'd think this would be simple, but i live in an apartment that on the ground floor and there's another fairly large apartment building between me and the antennas -- so I have no LoS. I bought this antenna at Target over the weekend, thinking i wouldn't need much to pick up the stations, but i was wrong. I get really spotty reception of 4, 5 and 7 (which are the ones I want) and great reception of 9 and 11 (which I don't care about much.) I only care about DTV reception. The reception I get is really finicky, I have to have the antenna in just the right spot and the loop angled just the right way to bring them in. The broadcast for Fox 13 is much farther away from me and I've yet to get it at all.
> 
> 
> I might be able to mount an antenna outside if I need to but I won't be able to get it above the apartment building that's blocking my LoS.
> 
> 
> Anybody have suggestions for me?
> 
> 
> Here's my antennaweb info:
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS SEATTLE WA 142° 2.8 41
> 
> * yellow - uhf KMYQ-DT 22.1 MNT SEATTLE WA 142° 2.8 25
> 
> * yellow - uhf KONG-DT 16.1 IND EVERETT WA 195° 1.9 31
> 
> * yellow - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 199° 1.9 38
> 
> * yellow - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 195° 1.9 48
> 
> * yellow - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE WA 204° 1.9 39
> 
> * yellow - uhf KWDK-DT 42.1 DAY TACOMA WA 104° 19.7 42
> 
> * yellow - uhf KWPX-DT 33.1 ION BELLEVUE WA 104° 19.7 32
> 
> * green - uhf KWOG-DT 51.1 IND BELLEVUE WA 103° 19.7 50
> 
> * blue - uhf KCPQ-DT 13.1 FOX TACOMA WA 234° 23.4 18
> 
> * blue - uhf KSTW-DT 11.1 CW TACOMA WA 143° 2.9 36
> 
> * violet - uhf KHCV-DT 44.1 SAH SEATTLE WA 104° 19.7 44



See attached radar plot for relative channel signal strengths and directions. Channel numbers in square brackets are the digital ones.


Detailed stats are here:
Code:


Code:


Callsgn Channel Type    Rx_dBm  Latitude        Longitude       RCAMSL  HAAT    Path    Dist    Azimuth Freq    Tx_EIRP
KOMO-TV 4       (A)     -16.5   47.63177        -122.35374      294.0   156.4   LOS     3.0     206.5   67.25   100.000
KING-TV 5       (A)     -17.7   47.63177        -122.35096      297.0   160.5   LOS     2.9     202.8   77.26   100.000
KONG-TV 16      (A)     -17.7   47.63177        -122.35096      279.0   142.5   LOS     2.9     202.8   483.24  3821.822
KIRO-TV 7       (A)     -19.7   47.63343        -122.35679      297.0   175.1   LOS     2.9     212.1   175.25  316.000
KMYQ    22      (A)     -21.7   47.61565        -122.30846      309.0   183.0   LOS     4.9     155.4   519.26  5000.000
KCTS-TV 9       (A)     -24.8   47.61593        -122.30901      285.0   155.3   LOS     4.9     155.7   187.25  316.000
KIRO-TV 39      (D)     -25.7   47.63343        -122.35679      271.0   149.1   LOS     2.9     212.1   620.31  991.047
KONG-TV 31      (D)     -26.8   47.63177        -122.35096      258.0   121.5   LOS     2.9     202.8   572.31  661.260
KING-TV 48      (D)     -27.7   47.63177        -122.35096      279.0   142.5   LOS     2.9     202.8   674.31  757.622
KSTW    11      (A)     -28.5   47.61538        -122.30929      311.3   181.2   LOS     4.9     156.2   199.26  157.869
KOMO-TV 38      (D)     -29.6   47.63177        -122.35374      270.0   132.4   LOS     3.0     206.5   614.31  404.285
KSTW    36      (D)     -32.8   47.61510        -122.30901      311.3   182.8   LOS     5.0     156.1   602.31  526.887
KCTS-TV 41      (D)     -34.0   47.61593        -122.30901      299.0   169.3   LOS     4.9     155.7   632.31  427.000
K57HB   47      (A)     -35.5   47.63177        -122.35096      304.0   167.5   LOS     2.9     202.8   669.25  124.000
KMYQ    25      (D)     -37.1   47.61565        -122.30846      326.1   200.1   LOS     4.9     155.4   536.31  155.000
KTBW-TV 20      (A)     -40.4   47.54704        -122.79542      599.0   95.6    LOS     36.5    250.6   507.25  3550.000
KUNS-TV 51      (A)     -42.1   47.50455        -121.96901      952.0   100.7   LOS     32.2    121.6   693.26  3372.318
KWDK    56      (A)     -42.9   47.50455        -121.96956      927.0   72.0    LOS     32.2    121.6   723.25  2992.549
KCPQ    13      (A)     -43.3   47.54787        -122.80737      718.0   221.6   LOS     37.3    251.2   211.24  316.000
KWPX    33      (A)     -47.4   47.50455        -121.96873      948.2   98.7    LOS     32.2    121.5   585.26  705.558
K68DL   40      (A)     -48.2   47.61565        -122.30846      247.0   121.0   LOS     4.9     155.4   627.24  16.508
KCPQ    18      (D)     -48.6   47.54787        -122.80737      693.0   196.6   LOS     37.3    251.2   494.31  523.179
KUNS-TV 50      (D)     -54.0   47.50455        -121.96901      952.0   100.7   LOS     32.2    121.6   686.31  212.989
KWDK    42      (D)     -55.0   47.50455        -121.96956      926.8   71.8    LOS     32.2    121.6   638.31  144.000
KTBW-TV 14      (D)     -56.0   47.54704        -122.79570      581.0   80.6    LOS     36.5    250.6   470.31  84.884
KHCV    45      (A)     -56.5   47.50455        -121.96956      944.0   89.0    LOS     32.2    121.6   657.26  109.561
KWPX    32      (D)     -61.7   47.50455        -121.96873      948.2   98.7    LOS     32.2    121.5   578.31  25.687
KUSE-LP 30      (A)     -64.4   47.60454        -122.32235      392.0   286.6   LOS     5.8     169.9   567.25  0.448
KBTC-TV 28      (A)     -76.9   47.27871        -122.51290      258.0   143.0   1Edge   44.1    197.5   555.25  604.000
KVOS-TV 12      (A)     -83.9   48.67760        -122.83130      771.0   77.5    2Edge   119.8   342.0   205.26  234.000
KBCB    24      (A)     -86.6   48.67927        -122.84324      792.6   132.1   2Edge   120.3   341.6   531.25  2408.072
KBTC-TV 27      (D)     -87.4   47.27871        -122.51290      274.0   159.0   1Edge   44.1    197.5   548.31  45.000
CHEKTV  6       (A)     -92.2   48.77427        -123.17075      904.5   496.0   2Edge   139.5   333.4   83.25   100.000
KVOS-TV 35      (D)     -93.8   48.68038        -122.84074      834.7   150.1   2Edge   120.3   341.7   596.31  576.256
KHCV    44      (D)     -95.1   47.50455        -121.96956      901.0   46.0    LOS     32.2    121.6   650.31  0.015
KBCB    19      (D)     -98.7   48.67927        -122.84324      792.6   132.1   2Edge   120.3   341.6   500.31  128.586

The nearby channels are very strong and arriving from a lot of different directions. Multipath reflections can be a problem and YMMV depending on the quality of the tuner used.


To minimize the possibility of multipath, your best bet is to use a highly directional passive (no pre-amp) antenna on the roof with a motorized rotator (so you can point to the different towers). Next best choice is to go with an omni rooftop antenna to avoid having the rotator, but then you'll be subject to greater amounts of multipath (and corresponding difficulty for your tuner).


Indoor antennas will probably suffer from the greatest amount of multipath, but if it's highly directional and you're able to pick out a signal path with low multipath interference, a good tuner might still be able to pick up the channel.


----------



## mentho

Thanks for the help texasbrit, holl_ands and andy.s.lee. I think I might take back the antenna I bought and buy one of the ones you suggest. Seems like I could probably install a small antenna outside, though I still wouldn't get LoS, perhaps there would be less stuff between the antenna and the source. I'll ditch the amplifier I have on my antenna -- what are the risks/consequences with overloading my tuner? I'm using an ATI 650 Tuner card in my computer.


Thanks so much.


----------



## markkent

I just replaced a possibly 30 year old Jerrold antenna

with a CM3671... and get vastly degraded signal,

all over the spectrum.


I'm at 700ft elevation. There is a 50' hill about

400 feet away, that obstructs my line-of-sight to

Mt.Sutro (San Francisco) but after that it's a

straight shot of about 27 miles to Mt.Sutro.


Here is a picture of the old beat up antenna

(it's missing some elements and others are dangling):

http://a.mainstreet.net/antenna.jpg 


Five years ago, I put a ChannelMaster 7777 on it

and I can get digital CBS, ABC, NBC and KQED, but

not Fox-DT and KRON-DT (higher frequency than the

rest)... just as predicted by AntennaWeb.

I was hoping that with the newer and better antenna

that I'ld generally improve everything and get Fox-DT.


With the CM3671, which I've tried with and without

the pre-amp, and with a new cable run direct from

antenna to my digital receiver, I get very very

poor VHF reception for the analog channels 2-11,

and incredibly finicky and not-as-strong-as-before

UHF reception for both digital and analog channels.

It's unwatchable for all analog channels. If I try

real hard, I can get one digital signal at about

half previous strength, but then lose the others.


Previously, I could get everything coming off

MtSutro with the same position of the antenna.


Now that I've done some reading, I figure the

radiation pattern for my old Jerrold must be fat

and round, while the pattern (from hdtvprimer.com)

for the cm3671 has peaks and valleys and is much

more directional.


If I'm right, then I may be in a position where I

would need to optimize the direction, and possibly

height, depending on the desired channel. This

would not be good.


If so, this tells me that in my exact situation,

with my unique geographical position, that a

lower-gain antenna with a fat and round radiation

pattern may be exactly what I need.


I'ld appreciate hearing comments from experts on my

reasoning.


But I do have a question about the antenna... there

are two spots where the baluns could attach.

One on the top side, and one on the under-side.

Should there be any difference in which one is

used?


I have to admit that I don't "get" antennas. I get

dishes, visually I can see how they focus a beam.

I don't get how the signal makes it to the point

where the two short leads from the baluns connect,

given the insulators between the elements.


Thanks,

-mark


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *delpis* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> thanks for the help. worcester is an hour away so i'll drive down and get the channel master. is there anything else i would need? cables, mount, etc?



You should call Stark, their phone number is on the main web page. You will need some cable, maybe 25' of RG-6 with f-connectors depending on where you want to put the antenna. I don't have that antenna so I am not sure how to mount it inside; maybe you could just prop it up somewhere. I guess a small tripod mount and a bit of 1¹⁄₄ mast would work but the mount will look like something to be bolted to a roof so you would need furniture pads to keep it from scratching the floor. Solidsignal has the installation diagram on their web site:
http://www.solidsignal.tv/manuals/4221_3021manual.pdf


----------



## deconvolver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markkent* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> I don't get how the signal makes it to the point
> 
> where the two short leads from the baluns connect,
> 
> given the insulators between the elements.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -mark



From the manual:
http://www.solidsignal.tv/manuals/Crossfiremanual.pdf 

it looks like you need to install the connecting rods from the wires that criss-cross between the VHF elements to the top of the bow-tie shaped dipole and the balun connects to the bottom of the dipole. The Crossfire should not perform *that* much differently than your old antenna, I would guess you have it assembled wrong.


----------



## andy.s.lee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markkent* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm at 700ft elevation. There is a 50' hill about 400 feet away, that obstructs my line-of-sight to Mt.Sutro (San Francisco) but after that it's a straight shot of about 27 miles to Mt.Sutro.



See attached map for digital channel coverage in the Bay Area. It sounds like you're in the hills somewhere to the left of Cupertino. If you can provide approximate coordinates, I can generate a more precise prediction of expected signal strengths.




> Quote:
> Five years ago, I put a ChannelMaster 7777 on it and I can get digital CBS, ABC, NBC and KQED, but not Fox-DT and KRON-DT (higher frequency than the
> 
> rest)... just as predicted by AntennaWeb. I was hoping that with the newer and better antenna that I'ld generally improve everything and get Fox-DT.
> 
> 
> With the CM3671, which I've tried with and without the pre-amp, and with a new cable run direct from antenna to my digital receiver, I get very very poor VHF reception for the analog channels 2-11, and incredibly finicky and not-as-strong-as-before UHF reception for both digital and analog channels. It's unwatchable for all analog channels. If I try real hard, I can get one digital signal at about half previous strength, but then lose the others.
> 
> 
> Previously, I could get everything coming off MtSutro with the same position of the antenna.
> 
> 
> Now that I've done some reading, I figure the radiation pattern for my old Jerrold must be fat and round, while the pattern (from hdtvprimer) for the cm3671 has peaks and valleys and is much more directional.
> 
> 
> If I'm right, then I may be in a position where I would need to optimize the direction, and possibly height, depending on the desired channel. This would not be good.
> 
> 
> If so, this tells me that in my exact situation, with my unique geographical position, that a lower-gain antenna with a fat and round radiation pattern may be exactly what I need.



The digital channels in the area come from Sutro, San Bruno, Mt. Diablo, and Monument / Allison Peak. If you are also interested in analog channels, then we should also include Loma Prieta in the discussion. From your location, that means that the channels are mostly coming from the north-west and from the east (and the south-east if you include Loma Prieta).


A single directional antenna cannot capture these signals simultaneously, so you'll either need to install a motorized rotator, install multiple directional antennas with a combiner, or go with a less directional (omni) antenna.


Since you also seem to have terrain blockage in the direction of San Bruno / Sutro, you'll want to install your antenna as high as possible to maximize signal strength. If the obstructing hill is just slightly above your LOS path, even a little bit of antenna height can make a big difference. If you are willing to share your exact coordinates (PM me if you want to keep it private), I can calculate a more accurate signal path.


FCC rules allow you to install antennas up to 12 feet above the roofline essentially without restrictions and higher if your local regulations permit it. For more info on OTA antenna laws, check out ww.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html .


All the signals in the area should be quite strong with the exception of Mt. Diablo and perhaps the blocked signals from San Bruno / Sutro. Assuming you can get past the San Bruno / Sutro blockage, a lower gain omni antenna should work just fine.


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *delpis* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> thanks for the help. worcester is an hour away so i'll drive down and get the channel master. is there anything else i would need? cables, mount, etc?




What I did for my indoor mount for 4228 is I use this satllite mount http://www.rstcenterprises.com/our_p...kadapter.phtml I got this from Menard's. I know Home Depot and Lowes don't have it but if you have a ABC Supply they should have it. I mounted the deck adapter to a soild building block 3 1/2" x 8" X 16" any home impovements should carry them. I also have a rotor mounted on that also and a 5 ft mast. Works for me. You will get a 300 ohm to 75 ohm Balun that comes with the all Channel Master antenna. It will come with mounting brackets you just need to get a antenna mast or you could use a emt conduit since it will be indoor.


Good Luck!


----------



## markkent

>> it looks like you need to install the connecting rods from the wires

>> that criss-cross between the VHF elements to the top of the bow-tie shaped dipole


Where do you read that in that page? Thanks for the pointer, btw.

I looked earlier and found a generic manual that seems like it was

written in the '50s.


Based on the instructions, I did find two things wrong: the bowtie dipole

was not snapped out into position. That seems rather critical 


And one spacer was missing in the cross-over assembly that runs down the

main spine, shorting the two runs. I put a glove in there to compensate.


But I don't see where it says that the cross-over assembly connects to the

bowtie dipole...


BTW, I get high-VHF now, not good lo-VHF, and no real UHF to speak of.


Thanks,

-mark


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mentho* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the help texasbrit, holl_ands and andy.s.lee. I think I might take back the antenna I bought and buy one of the ones you suggest. Seems like I could probably install a small antenna outside, though I still wouldn't get LoS, perhaps there would be less stuff between the antenna and the source. I'll ditch the amplifier I have on my antenna -- what are the risks/consequences with overloading my tuner? I'm using an ATI 650 Tuner card in my computer.
> 
> 
> Thanks so much.



Overload doesn't cause physical damage...


"High" input levels (fraction of a milliwatt) will generate intermodulation distortion

all across the band that makes it difficult/impossible to receive moderate to weak stations.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *markkent* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just replaced a possibly 30 year old Jerrold antenna
> 
> with a CM3671... and get vastly degraded signal,
> 
> all over the spectrum.
> 
> 
> I'm at 700ft elevation. There is a 50' hill about
> 
> 400 feet away, that obstructs my line-of-sight to
> 
> Mt.Sutro (San Francisco) but after that it's a
> 
> straight shot of about 27 miles to Mt.Sutro.
> 
> 
> Here is a picture of the old beat up antenna
> 
> (it's missing some elements and others are dangling):
> 
> http://a.mainstreet.net/antenna.jpg
> 
> 
> Five years ago, I put a ChannelMaster 7777 on it
> 
> and I can get digital CBS, ABC, NBC and KQED, but
> 
> not Fox-DT and KRON-DT (higher frequency than the
> 
> rest)... just as predicted by AntennaWeb.
> 
> I was hoping that with the newer and better antenna
> 
> that I'ld generally improve everything and get Fox-DT.
> 
> 
> With the CM3671, which I've tried with and without
> 
> the pre-amp, and with a new cable run direct from
> 
> antenna to my digital receiver, I get very very
> 
> poor VHF reception for the analog channels 2-11,
> 
> and incredibly finicky and not-as-strong-as-before
> 
> UHF reception for both digital and analog channels.
> 
> It's unwatchable for all analog channels. If I try
> 
> real hard, I can get one digital signal at about
> 
> half previous strength, but then lose the others.
> 
> 
> Previously, I could get everything coming off
> 
> MtSutro with the same position of the antenna.
> 
> 
> But I do have a question about the antenna... there
> 
> are two spots where the baluns could attach.
> 
> One on the top side, and one on the under-side.
> 
> Should there be any difference in which one is
> 
> used?
> 
> 
> I have to admit that I don't "get" antennas. I get
> 
> dishes, visually I can see how they focus a beam.
> 
> I don't get how the signal makes it to the point
> 
> where the two short leads from the baluns connect,
> 
> given the insulators between the elements.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -mark



In your Jerrold picture, we can see that the Jerrold is actually two antennas--

ne for VHF and a second for UHF.

The front part is for UHF and the larger elements are for VHF.


It looks like the "driven" element in the Jerrold's VHF section is a folded dipole

(the one that forms a loop, just behind the UHF section)....

And elements with increasing length behind it appear to be fed via dual boom method.


=================================

The CM3671 Crossfire has VHF elements of two different lengths that target both

the low-band (CH2-6) and hi-band (CH7-13) channels.

I haven't used one (and the manual isn't very clear), but from fol. NEC simulation data (see gif's),

it appears that there is a single balun feeding a combo VHF/UHF antenna:
http://hometown.aol.com/kq6qv/SIMS/ 

The VHF signal goes THROUGH bottom of UHF Folded Dipole element and out the top,

where there are TWO feed pairs (CM calls them "connecting rods") going to the rear of the antenna,

apparently for the lo-VHF (long length) and hi-VHF (medium length) elements respectively.


Perhaps other owners can help re how it's supposed to be connected.....


======================================

To help you "get" antennas, note that the front is a "Corner Reflector Yagi" type

for the UHF band, similar to the fol.:
http://www.lashen.com/vendors/winegard/pdf/pr-9018.pdf 


The balun connects to the "driven" element (usually a "folded dipole"), which is located

in front of the "corner reflector".

The "corner reflector" is formed by the element just behind the "driven" element and the

collection of elements above and below the boom.


In the UHF band, the "corner reflector" focuses the signal onto the active 'driven" element,

similar to how a dish works.

The elements in front of the "driven" element steadily decrease in size and will narrow

the beamwidth and thereby generate more gain.


The "back" (big) part of both antennas is a Log Periodic Dipole Array (LPDA) type

antenna structure for the VHF band.

There are two kinds of feed structures for interconnecting the active elements:

dual-boom feed and zig-zag feed. The two kinds can be seen in this tutorial re LPDA Antennas:
http://62.181.33.2/pub/hamradio/ru3d...ook/chap10.pdf 


In the dual-boom feed structure, elements are connected alternatively to one boom and

the remaining to the other boom.

In the zig-zag feed structure, a pair of zig-zagging wires, interconnect alternate elements.


If you trace the feed structures, you may or may not find that the UHF and VHF sections

are interconnected....and in others they are designed with separate VHF and UHF connections.


Separate connections allow the user to use just a UHF Preamp, followed by a VHF/UHF Diplexer.

To use an antenna with separate VHF and UHF antenna connections with a Preamp which only

has combined VHF/UHF Preamp inputs, you'll need some short jumper wires.

Fortunately, the CM7777 can be used either with separate VHF and UHF connections (need two baluns),

or can be attached via a single balun if the antenna can be configured as a combined VHF/UHF unit.


The fol. manual for the CM3014-3020 clearly shows the separate VHF and UHF

connections in Fig 6 and 6A respectively:
http://www.pctusa.net/channelmaster/...al_3014_20.pdf 


=========================================

Fol. antenna tutorials comes from unusual sources, but it beats buying a book:
http://ece.uprm.edu/~pol/AntennaIntro.pdf 
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/185030a.pdf 
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/185030b.pdf 
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/185030c.pdf 
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/185030d.pdf


----------



## Eggplant Jeff

Does anyone know what an impedance mismatch looks like on analog TV? I have a repeated ghost (of the main image), 1/4 inch to the right of the image, then a fainter ghost 1/4 to the right, then a fainter one 1/4 inch to the right, etc. With the right picture (say a nice crisp color on black background) I can see 4 or 5 of them. They're present on every station, so I don't think it is a normal multipath ghost.


The reason I'm asking about analog is because my digital reception isn't great, and I'm trying to diagnose it...


Supposedly mismatched impedance can cause "reflections" of the signal, but I haven't seen any description of what that looks like in TV terms.


Also what problem is caused by combining the leads from UHF and VHF antennas together without using a splitter/combiner? Do you get more noise, interference, what? I've tried it both ways without seeing a huge difference, but that could be that my cheapo radio shack combiner doesn't actually do much.


----------



## andyk45

Looking for some advice on an indoor antenna that will pull in some stations for me. I bought a silver sensor and am only able to pull in wews from cleveland. Would some thing like the DB2 be better or somrthing else, also would an amp help me out. My zip is 44685 and below are the results I got from the website. Thanks






Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live

Date Compass

Orientation Miles

From Frequency

Assignment

yellow - uhf WNEO 45 PBS ALLIANCE OH 106° 25.2 45

yellow - uhf WDLI 17 TBN CANTON OH 151° 9.6 17

* yellow - uhf WDLI-DT 39.1 TBN CANTON OH 309° 12.6 39

* yellow - uhf WEWS-DT 5.1 ABC CLEVELAND OH 337° 33.2 15

yellow - uhf WVPX 23 ION AKRON OH 312° 12.4 23

* yellow - uhf WVPX-DT 59 ION AKRON OH TBD 312° 12.4 59

* yellow - uhf WJW-DT 8.1 FOX CLEVELAND OH 336° 32.5 31

green - uhf WKBN 27 CBS YOUNGSTOWN OH 88° 39.2 27

* green - uhf WKBN-DT 27.1 CBS YOUNGSTOWN OH 88° 39.2 41

green - vhf WJW 8 FOX CLEVELAND OH 336° 32.5 8

green - vhf WEWS 5 ABC CLEVELAND OH 337° 33.2 5

green - uhf WUAB 43 MNT LORAIN OH 337° 33.6 43

* red - uhf WUAB-DT 43.1 MNT LORAIN OH 337° 33.6 28

red - uhf WQHS 61 UNI Cleveland OH 338° 33.3 61

red - uhf WOIO 19 CBS SHAKER HEIGHTS OH 339° 33.4 19

red - uhf WEAO 49 PBS AKRON OH 311° 15.3 49

* red - uhf WEAO-DT 50.1 PBS AKRON OH 311° 15.3 50

* red - uhf WNEO-DT 46.1 PBS ALLIANCE OH 106° 25.2 46

red - uhf WVIZ 25 PBS CLEVELAND OH 333° 31.9 25

red - uhf WOAC 67 SAH CANTON OH 22° 10.4 67

red - uhf WBNX 55 CW AKRON OH 339° 33.2 55

* red - uhf WBNX-DT 55.1 CW AKRON OH 339° 33.2 30

* blue - uhf WOAC-DT 47.1 SAH CANTON OH 22° 10.4 47

* blue - uhf WFMJ-DT 21.1 NBC YOUNGSTOWN OH 86° 39.8 20

blue - uhf W35AX 35 A1 CLEVELAND OH 339° 33.2 35

blue - uhf WYTV 33 ABC YOUNGSTOWN OH 87° 39.8 33

blue - vhf WKYC 3 NBC CLEVELAND OH 340° 33.2 3

* blue - vhf WKYC-DT 3.1 NBC CLEVELAND OH 340° 33.2 2

blue - uhf WIVM-LP 52 IND CANTON OH 137° 7.9 52

* blue - uhf WQHS-DT 61.1 UNI Cleveland OH 338° 33.3 34

* violet - vhf WOIO-DT 19.1 CBS SHAKER HEIGHTS OH 339° 33.4 10

violet - vhf WTOV 9 NBC STEUBENVILLE OH 144° 58.7 9

violet - vhf KDKA 2 CBS PITTSBURGH PA 122° 78.6 2

Note:


----------



## andy.s.lee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Eggplant Jeff* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does anyone know what an impedance mismatch looks like on analog TV? I have a repeated ghost (of the main image), 1/4 inch to the right of the image, then a fainter ghost 1/4 to the right, then a fainter one 1/4 inch to the right, etc. With the right picture (say a nice crisp color on black background) I can see 4 or 5 of them. They're present on every station, so I don't think it is a normal multipath ghost.
> 
> 
> The reason I'm asking about analog is because my digital reception isn't great, and I'm trying to diagnose it...
> 
> 
> Supposedly mismatched impedance can cause "reflections" of the signal, but I haven't seen any description of what that looks like in TV terms.



Impedance mismatch can cause the symptoms you are describing, but to have so many reflections showing up means that you probably have a mismatch at both ends of a fairly long cable run. I'm not sure how big 1/4 inch is relative to your screen size, but if I were to make a rough guess, I'd say your looking at reflections along about 130 feet of cable. It's possibly a scenario of signal hitting an impedance mismatch at the bottom (near your receiver), reflecting back toward the antenna, reflecting again at the top (near the antenna), and repeating this until the signal level has attenuated enough become unnoticable.


However, in order to have as many visible ghosts as you are seeing, there must be a rather big impedance mismatch. What is the impedance of your antenna, the cable, and your termination point (tuner, distribution amp, or whatever you might have)? And are you using any baluns?



> Quote:
> Also what problem is caused by combining the leads from UHF and VHF antennas together without using a splitter/combiner? Do you get more noise, interference, what? I've tried it both ways without seeing a huge difference, but that could be that my cheapo radio shack combiner doesn't actually do much.



In the worst case, connecting UHF and VHF antennas together electrically can alter the radiation pattern, gain, and frequency response of either or both of the antennas. The magnitude of the change depends on the relative positioning / orientation of the antenna elements. Antennas that are close to each other (especially if one is "in front" of the other) are more likely to affect each others' characteristics.


This may or may not affect you depending on how much you rely on the antennas having a particular radiation pattern / gain / frequency response (i.e., if you have several strong signals coming from many directions, a lower gain omnidirectional pattern might not be such a bad thing). It's less "clean" if you care about these things and you might have a harder time fine tuning the antennas since the radiation pattern might not be what you expect any more.


A good combiner (or better yet, a diplexer) will have several dB of isolation between its inputs and therefore will have much less electrical coupling between each of the antennas.


----------



## andy.s.lee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *andyk45* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Looking for some advice on an indoor antenna that will pull in some stations for me. I bought a silver sensor and am only able to pull in wews from cleveland. Would some thing like the DB2 be better or somrthing else, also would an amp help me out. My zip is 44685 and below are the results I got from the website. Thanks



Here's an alternative prediction of channels for your zip code:
Code:


Code:


Callsgn Channel Type    Rx_dBm  Path    Dist    Azimuth Freq    Tx_EIRP
WVPX    23      (A)     -33.1   LOS     17.6    309.7   525.26  4874.885
WDLI-TV 17      (A)     -43.4   LOS     17.7    305.3   489.24  423.741
WOAC    67      (A)     -44.1   LOS     17.7    23.8    789.25  4369.973
WVPX    59      (D)     -44.7   LOS     17.6    309.7   740.31  608.762
WEAO    49      (A)     -47.6   LOS     22.2    306.7   681.26  692.000
WDLI-TV 39      (D)     -48.1   LOS     17.7    305.3   620.31  200.000
WOIO    19      (A)     -49.4   LOS     52.6    334.0   501.25  3435.723
WBNX-TV 55      (A)     -50.0   LOS     52.2    333.8   717.24  4729.084
WKYC-TV 3       (A)     -51.7   LOS     52.2    334.5   61.25   93.300
WOAC    47      (D)     -51.8   LOS     17.7    23.8    668.31  810.439
WEAO    50      (D)     -53.5   LOS     22.2    306.7   686.31  180.000
WKYC-TV 2       (D)     -62.2   LOS     52.2    334.5   54.31   8.000
WNEO    45      (A)     -67.7   1Edge   43.3    98.5    657.26  1820.000
WEWS-TV 5       (A)     -68.1   1Edge   52.1    331.4   77.26   93.300
WJW     8       (A)     -68.3   1Edge   50.9    330.9   181.26  236.000
WVIZ    25      (A)     -71.2   1Edge   49.9    327.5   537.26  2041.894
WBNX-TV 30      (D)     -72.2   1Edge   52.2    333.8   566.31  989.518
WQHS-TV 61      (A)     -72.9   1Edge   52.4    333.3   753.25  2000.000
WUAB    43      (A)     -73.9   1Edge   52.7    331.6   645.25  2235.081
WOIO    10      (D)     -75.7   LOS     52.6    334.0   192.31  2.362
W63CH   18      (A)     -76.1   LOS     17.0    19.0    495.26  1.588
WEWS-TV 15      (D)     -76.9   1Edge   52.1    331.4   476.31  870.000
WJW     31      (D)     -77.7   1Edge   50.9    330.9   572.31  625.000
WQHS-TV 34      (D)     -79.3   1Edge   52.3    333.2   590.31  338.375
WUAB    28      (D)     -85.0   1Edge   52.7    331.6   554.31  110.007
WKBN-TV 27      (A)     -88.9   2Edge   65.9    81.0    549.25  871.000
WNEO    46      (D)     -90.4   2Edge   43.3    98.5    662.31  17.497
WAOH-LP 29      (A)     -91.3   LOS     17.0    19.0    561.25  0.055
W35AX   35      (A)     -92.9   1Edge   52.2    333.8   597.25  10.224
WKBN-TV 41      (D)     -93.5   2Edge   65.9    81.0    632.31  700.000
WFMJ-TV 21      (A)     -95.0   2Edge   66.8    78.8    513.24  2770.380
WXOX-LP 44      (A)     -98.3   2Edge   52.2    333.9   651.26  8.298

The attached radar plot summarizes this information visually. Longer bars mean stronger signals. Short bars in the "red zone" are weaker and probably require an external directional antenna to pick up. Distances are in km, Azimuth is relative to true north (not magnetic north).


Many of the channels in your area are borderline, which means that they will be difficult to pick up with an indoor antenna on the ground floor of a building. You'll want to put your antenna as high as possible. Second floor would be better, attic is even better. If you really want a lot of channels, install an antenna on the roof.


If you restrict yourself to indoor antennas, you'll want one with as much gain as possible since most of the channels will be rather weak indoors. In that respect, I'm sure the DB2 will perform better than the Silver Sensor (aesthetics aside). The DB2 is a directional antenna, so you may need to re-point the antenna depending on which group of transmitters you're trying to get.


An amplifier should not be necessary if the cable length is short. If you are running a longer cable or are splitting the signal to multiple destinations, then you'll want a "small" pre-amp (10-15 dB gain should be enough) installed as close to the antenna as possible. If you've just got the antenna going directly to the TV, don't bother with any amp.


----------



## Eggplant Jeff




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *andy.s.lee* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how big 1/4 inch is relative to your screen size, but if I were to make a rough guess, I'd say your looking at reflections along about 130 feet of cable.



It's not a big screen, 26". The cable run is about 35 feet, however, the cable isn't a great setup. I need to get to the hardware store and buy some bulk RG6 and connectors... I used what I had on hand, so the wiring actually looks like this:

Antenna > balun (300/75 twin lead to coax) > 3ft RG6 > 25ft RG59 > splitter > 6ft RG59 > TV.


The other half the splitter is split again and goes to a tuner and an FM radio (for the radio I figured an antenna's an antenna, I'm not too concerned with great radio reception).


Now before you all start laughing at me, this is my first time setting up an antenna / wiring setup so I prefer constructive rather than sarcastic criticism.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *andy.s.lee* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> However, in order to have as many visible ghosts as you are seeing, there must be a rather big impedance mismatch. What is the impedance of your antenna, the cable, and your termination point (tuner, distribution amp, or whatever you might have)? And are you using any baluns?



One balun, mentioned above. How do I measure impedance? My antenna setup is two T2FDs, one sized for VHF, one sized for UHF and nestled inside the larger one (I thought this would be less likely to cause interference between 'em because they're receiving at basically the exact same location, but is that wrong?). Supposedly they are a 300 ohm just like any twin-lead antenna but I built 'em myself and have not measured it.


Thanks for the info!


P.s. on most stations most of the time, you only notice the first ghost. It's only if you look closely at a picture with a good foreground/background constrast that you can make out the others.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *andyk45* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Looking for some advice on an indoor antenna that will pull in some stations for me. I bought a silver sensor and am only able to pull in wews from cleveland. Would some thing like the DB2 be better or somrthing else, also would an amp help me out. My zip is 44685 and below are the results I got from the website. Thanks



I plugged in your zip code and an antenna height of 75' to make up for where ever the center of your zip code is. Your list is hard to read because it has both digital and analog stations. Here is an edited list of your the digital stations only :


* yellow - uhf WDLI-DT 39.1 TBN CANTON OH 313° 11.0 39

* yellow - uhf WEAO-DT 50.1 PBS AKRON OH 314° 13.8 50

* yellow - uhf WEWS-DT 5.1 ABC CLEVELAND OH 339° 32.2 15

* yellow - uhf WBNX-DT 55.1 CW AKRON OH 342° 32.3 30

* yellow - uhf WVPX-DT 59 ION AKRON OH TBD 317° 10.9 59

* green - uhf WQHS-DT 61.1 UNI Cleveland OH 341° 32.4 34

* green - vhf WKYC-DT 3.1 NBC CLEVELAND OH 342° 32.3 2


----------



## markkent

>> where there are TWO feed pairs (CM calls them "connecting rods")

>> going to the rear of the antenna,


My antenna is missing those. I made the connections using some wire and

now, not surprisingly, I get VHF. BTW, this lack of electrical connection,

which I figured was by design, was part of the reason that I earlier typed

that I didn't "get" antenna. It makes a lot more sense now.


So, here's a review of what was wrong with my "professional" install:


a) VHF part of antenna not connected electrically to terminal leads

(step 1 of instructions)

b) Spacer not installed as indicated in step 3 of instructions, thus shorting the

two sides of VHF antenna.

c) Bow-tie dipole, which appears to be the focal point of the UHF assembly,

not opened to "installed" position.


I still get poor UHF. Can't get 5-1, 7-1, 9-1. Surprisingly, I get brief glimpses of

4-1 (higher freq. UHF, ch. 57). Previously I had fairly wide latitude for the now

missing channels... I had maybe 30 degrees of play where I could still get them.

Now they barely trigger the signal meter on the receiver.


I'll be trying different heights today.


Thanks,

-mark


----------



## Rick0725




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Kerry Cozad measured +2 dBd gain for CH2, 4 and 6 on a real CM4228....
> 
> Or about what a folded dipole provides after you account for some "ground bounce gain" in Cozad's measurements.
> 
> 
> I would try it and see what diffracts over (and around) that hill--which is easier for VHF--after all towers are only 18 miles away.
> 
> 
> It would be of interest to know what kind of antenna is currently used for CH6 and below.....
> 
> And how well it works...
> 
> 
> And if it doesn't work, he can use a separate (existing?) VHF antenna with a UHF/VHF Hybrid Combiner for the CM4228.



cm4228 for low land vhf?


I have a ch 3 and a ch 5 here and the reception was poopey with the cm4228 and preamp.


yellow - WSTM 3 NBC SYRACUSE NY 189° 14.9 3

yellow - WTVH 5 CBS SYRACUSE NY 187° 14.2 5


with ch 9 not bad

yellow - vhf WSYR 9 ABC SYRACUSE NY 172° 15.8 9


I'm yellow!


why do you folks continue to suggest a uhf antenna to receive vhf. I can accept trying a cm4228 for high band vhf maybe up to red with an amp...but come on.


do you install antennas or do you rehash what you read.


what works for one user may not work for another.


a user wants an antenna that would work great for them. no hypotheticals are allowed.


----------



## Neil L

The CM 4228 is NOT a VHF antenna, but it will pick up strong signals on channel 3. I have an analog station on channel 3 that is 70 miles away, and I can usually get a very snowy signal from that station. There is a channel 5 the same distance away that I never pick up at all with the 4228. I did get a weak picture from a distant channel 2 once or twice during tropo conditions. So a 4228 can pick up a low VHF station, but I don't think it has any gain over a dipole at those frequencies. A tuned dipole would probably be better.


----------



## delpis

damn, the mount is gonna be a pain in the ass!


for the rg6 cable, double or quad shielded? CSS or copper center? could i just get one from monoprice.com or is Belden the better choice for a few dollars more? if Belden, which one do i get from here


----------



## F.Carver

Newbie here on this forum.


I have a puzzling situation here. I live in zip code 15417, About 40 miles S of Pittsburgh, PA and about the same distance N of Morgantown, WV.


I have used a regular antenna with a radio shack preamp on the mast for years to pick up standard analog broadcasts.


I had the chance to hook up two different TVs to pick up digital signals.


The first was a Samsung plasma EDTV and I was able to get channels 4.1, 11.1, 11.2, 13.1 and 24.1 with pretty strong signals. Sometimes they would break up when the signal was weak. (It had a signal meter built in).


I was also able to get 13.2, 24.2, and 24.3 on occasion, but they were always weak. Atmospheric conditions?


Now I have a Visio LCD hooked up and it picks up 2.1 the best - a station I could never get with the other set. It also picks up 4.1, 11.1 and 11.2 occasionally, but I can never figure out why. Often, when it picks up these stations, it won't get 2.1 at all.


Is this due to the tuners in the two different sets? Is there a way to tell which TVs have better tuners before i would buy one?


What do I need to do the antenna to get the best reception in my area?

Here's a list from a website - I forget which one - that lists local stations, the direction from my house, and the distance to the station.


TV Stations - Degrees and Distance


red - uhfWNPB24PBS MORGANTOWNWV 169° 22.724


*red - uhfWNPB-DT24.1PBS MORGANTOWNWV 169° 22.733


red - vhfWTAE4ABC PITTSBURGHPA 24° 19.84


*blue - uhfWTAE-DT4.1ABC PITTSBURGHPA 24° 19.851


blue - uhfWPMY22WB PITTSBURGHPA 26° 31.622


blue - uhfWPCW19UPN JEANNETTE PA 81° 41.119


blue - uhfWPCB40FMN GREENSBURGPA 22° 27.540


blue - uhfWWAT-CA45BOX UNIONTOWN PA 148° 17.645


violet - uhfWPGH53FOX PITTSBURGHPA 0° 34.253


violet - vhfWTOV9NBC STEUBENVILLEOH 310° 44.39


violet - vhfWPXI11NBC PITTSBURGH PA 359° 32.111


violet - vhfKDKA2CBS PITTSBURGH PA 358° 34.22


violet - uhfW56CG56IND GREENSBURGPA 47° 26.356


violet - vhfWJAC6NBC JOHNSTOWNPA 71° 54.96


violet - vhfWQED13PBS PITTSBURGHPA 3° 30.613


violet - uhfWQEX16HSN PITTSBURGHPA 3° 30.616


violet - vhfWWCP8FOX JOHNSTOWNPA 81° 41.78


My sincere apologies if this is in the wrong thread or if I failed to provide pertinent info. I did read the stickies that I thought would apply.


Thanks in advance for any info!


----------



## andy.s.lee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Eggplant Jeff* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It's not a big screen, 26". The cable run is about 35 feet, however, the cable isn't a great setup. I need to get to the hardware store and buy some bulk RG6 and connectors... I used what I had on hand, so the wiring actually looks like this:
> 
> Antenna > balun (300/75 twin lead to coax) > 3ft RG6 > 25ft RG59 > splitter > 6ft RG59 > TV.
> 
> 
> The other half the splitter is split again and goes to a tuner and an FM radio (for the radio I figured an antenna's an antenna, I'm not too concerned with great radio reception).
> 
> 
> Now before you all start laughing at me, this is my first time setting up an antenna / wiring setup so I prefer constructive rather than sarcastic criticism.



Do you still get the reflections if you eliminate the splitters and go directly into the TV only? Just make sure that the other branches of the distribution network are not adding to the problem (i.e., perhaps a mismatched FM receiver termination) by testing with only a single feed going directly into the TV.


Since there are so many visible after-images, it's possible there's more than just impedance mismatches causing problems. A poor connection along the way can create a high-impedance reflection point along the path. The outer conductor of the coax could also be acting as part of the antenna and re-radiating the signal. Lots of strange things can happen with RF, so nobody should be laughing...


If you still get the after-images with only the TV, the next step is to check for the simple things first. Are all the connections good? Make sure they are snug, but do not over-tighten. If any of the cables are hand-made, are the connectors attached securely to the cable (e.g., is the coax braid making good contact with sleeve of the F-type connector)?


Sometimes, even the simplest off-the-shelf parts can cause grief. I once had a right-angle F-type connector adaptor that had an internal impedance problem. I never suspected the part, but after hours of testing every other component of the system, I finally fixed the system by swapping out the $2 part.


Another thing to try is attaching rabbit ear antennas directly to the TV, thus bypassing anything in your antenna and distribution network. If the ghosts still show up the same way with rabbit ears, then it's possible that the problem is environmentally generated and is not caused by anything wrong in your setup.


Experiment some more and let us know what you find...




> Quote:
> One balun, mentioned above. How do I measure impedance? My antenna setup is two T2FDs, one sized for VHF, one sized for UHF and nestled inside the larger one (I thought this would be less likely to cause interference between 'em because they're receiving at basically the exact same location, but is that wrong?). Supposedly they are a 300 ohm just like any twin-lead antenna but I built 'em myself and have not measured it.



A T2FD antenna's impedance is dependent on the value of the terminating resistor between the elements. To make the impedance at the feed point 300 ohms, the terminating resistor is supposed to be about 390 ohms. The antenna can have a 600 ohm impedance if the terminating resistor has a value of about 650 ohms. The antenna's impedance is not automatically 300 ohms unless it's made to be that way. A plain folded dipole would be 300 ohms.


Measuring antenna impedance is not very straightforward. With fancy lab equipment (i.e., RF network analyzers) it can be a snap, but it's more tricky if you don't have access to those kinds of tools. A reasonably quick and cheaper alternative is to get an portable antenna analyzer like those used by ham radio operators (e.g., Autek RF5 VHF Analyzer). These kinds of tools have all the built-in HW and algorithms to give you a direct reading of your antenna's impedance, but they cost about $200-300. If you know all the physical and electrical characteristics of your antenna, it's also possible to have software compute the impedance once the model has been entered. There are many other techniques for getting the impedance of an antenna, but you'll be diving into a lot of antenna theory and technologies that are probably beyond the scope of this forum and what you're trying to achieve.


I'd say the bottom line is that you don't need to know your antenna's impedance. If you know or can estimate the impedance of your antennas, having an approximate match is good enough. No need to spend your time or money trying to find the perfect impedance match.


BTW, having one antenna nested inside the other will affect the antennas. Placing antennas in close proximity to each other can change the reactance / impedance / frequency response of the antenna as well as radiation pattern. It will probably require direct measurement or simulation in order to tell how much the antenna's characteristics have been altered from their free-space equivalent.




> Quote:
> P.s. on most stations most of the time, you only notice the first ghost. It's only if you look closely at a picture with a good foreground/background constrast that you can make out the others.



This is actually encouraging to hear. A small number of visible ghosts is more typical of real-world multipath. This could mean that your ghosting is caused by the environment rather than your antennas.


You had mentioned earlier that you didn't think this was normal multipath because it seemed to affect all the channels the same way. You're right that the ghosts will most likely look different for channels coming from different directions, but it's something that should be checked.


At my office, our building happens to be at exactly the right place to receive TV reflections off a three story office building (with metallic window film, making it an excellent RF reflector) about a block away. I work with TV signals as part of my job, which is why I know. The reflected signals are actually approximately the same power as the LOS signal, which creates a very visible double image. All the channels from that transmitter cluster (over 20 channels) were affected the same way.


If your neighborhood has multi-story buildings with large flat surfaces, then you might be seeing the reflections off of them.


The best way to combat multipath (if you have an idea which direction the reflections are coming from) is to use directional antennas to pick out only the direct path signal. Since T2FD antennas are "omnidirectional", they don't discriminate between any of the multipath signals and hence you're more likely to see all the reflected signals floating around your area.


Again, if the rabbit ears test from above shows the same ghosting, then you are probably dealing with multipath rather than anything in your antenna setup. You may want to do that test first before spending any time fiddling with your entire antenna network.


If you are dealing with multipath, then you may need to consider a different kind of antenna arrangement and forego the T2FD antennas.


----------



## Rick0725




> Quote:
> What do I need to do the antenna to get the best reception in my area?
> 
> Here's a list from a website - I forget which one - that lists local stations, the direction from my house, and the distance to the station.



F.Carver

your digital reception will be affected by your local geography being in the adirondack area.


suggest the antennas direct 91xg antenna, cm7777 preamp and rotor. do not suggest the cm4228 since it tames multipath poorly.


in 2009


wwcp is going from ch 29 to ch8

wqed is going from ch 38 to ch13


at this time you would need to add a winegard ya0713 or antenna craft y10 7-13.


if you do not desire 2 antennas suggest the winegard hd7084P or hd8200p


before you "pimp your antenna ride"...run a coax direct from the antenna and preamp to a tv . if the signal is satisfactory there lies an issue within your antenna setup. If not satisfied time to order new stuff.


----------



## woodsmith

Hi, I think I am just going to get an Wingard SS-1000 and have it mounted on my existing Dish Network sat pole. It appears it should do fine. I'll let you know how everything works out. Thanks for all the help. Jeff


----------



## woodsmith

Hi, I think I am just going to get an Wingard SS-1000 and have it mounted on my existing Dish Network sat pole. It appears it should do fine. I'll let you know how everything works out. Thanks for all the help. Jeff


----------



## andyk45




> Quote:
> I plugged in your zip code and an antenna height of 75' to make up for where ever the center of your zip code is. Your list is hard to read because it has both digital and analog stations. Here is an edited list of your the digital stations only :
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf WDLI-DT 39.1 TBN CANTON OH 313° 11.0 39
> 
> * yellow - uhf WEAO-DT 50.1 PBS AKRON OH 314° 13.8 50
> 
> * yellow - uhf WEWS-DT 5.1 ABC CLEVELAND OH 339° 32.2 15
> 
> * yellow - uhf WBNX-DT 55.1 CW AKRON OH 342° 32.3 30
> 
> * yellow - uhf WVPX-DT 59 ION AKRON OH TBD 317° 10.9 59
> 
> * green - uhf WQHS-DT 61.1 UNI Cleveland OH 341° 32.4 34
> 
> * green - vhf WKYC-DT 3.1 NBC CLEVELAND OH 342° 32.3 2


----------



## tnic

your response on best antenna (exact name) to get. I agree with the bigger, higher outside mantra. Main issue where I live is trees.


red - uhf WUPL 54 MNT SLIDELL LA 120° 13.6 54

blue - uhf WNOL 38 CW NEW ORLEANS LA 161° 29.3 38

blue - uhf WGNO 26 ABC NEW ORLEANS LA 161° 29.3 26

blue - uhf WLAE 32 PBS NEW ORLEANS LA 161° 29.3 32

violet - vhf WDSU 6 NBC NEW ORLEANS LA 163° 31.4 6

* violet - uhf WUPL-DT 54.1 MNT SLIDELL LA 120° 13.6 24

violet - vhf WWL 4 CBS NEW ORLEANS LA 173° 33.4 4

violet - vhf WVUE 8 FOX NEW ORLEANS LA 162° 31.3 8


----------



## F.Carver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> F.Carver
> 
> your digital reception will be affected by your local geography being in the adirondack area.
> 
> 
> suggest the antennas direct 91xg antenna, cm7777 preamp and rotor. do not suggest the cm4228 since it tames multipath poorly.
> 
> 
> in 2009
> 
> 
> wwcp is going from ch 29 to ch8
> 
> wqed is going from ch 38 to ch13
> 
> 
> at this time you would need to add a winegard ya0713 or antenna craft y10 7-13.
> 
> 
> if you do not desire 2 antennas suggest the winegard hd7084P or hd8200p
> 
> 
> before you "pimp your antenna ride"...run a coax direct from the antenna and preamp to a tv . if the signal is satisfactory there lies an issue within your antenna setup. If not satisfied time to order new stuff.



Rick0725 - Thanks for the reply! I appreciate it a lot.


I think I've done it before, but I put a coax feed directly into the DTV connection instead of through the splitter.. I got the same channels. 4.1, 11.1, and 11.2 - no more channels than through the splitter.


I may have a slightly better signal with the direct feed - It seemed to break up a little less on a hockey game. Right now it goes into a 4way splitter (one lead for each of the tuners in the LCD TV, one to the VCR, and one to a TV in a bedroom.) I tried a powered splitter from radio shack about a month ago and didn't notice any signal improvement, so I took it back.


The question that really puzzles me is this. Why do I get different stations with the two different TVs with the exact same antenna setup?


Channel 2 Analog TV is usually the most degraded image of all the analog stations I watch. Channel 2.1 digital TV *never* came in on the Samsung digital, but 2.1 usually is the *strongest* signal of all the DTV stations on the LCD. Then again, occasionally it doesn't come in at all.


On the other hand, The Samsung plasma always picked up 11.1 and 13.1, but the Visio LCD only gets 11.1 occasionally and never has picked up 13.1.


I just thought of something. The Samsung had only one coax connection. The Visio has two - one for analog and a separate one for digital. Would that matter?


Is this an antenna problem or is this the tuners?


Oh - FYI the rooftop antenna is a big one that looks like the large winegard models. It has two beams down the center. At the front, they go into a plastic box and a single square beam goes out the front. This beam has horizontal, flat, wedge shaped pieces of aluminum with the tips bent 90 degrees down. There is no corner reflector.


The middle section has narrower pieces of aluminum in the shape of a capital H with the top left and lower right projections cut off. These are riveted in place.


The back section has progressively longer tubes projecting out perpendicular to the beams. Some of these tubes have short tubes mounted about 3" away and parallel to the main tubes.


There is a 2 foot section of 300 ohm heavy flat antenna cable from the antenna to the preamp. From there down, it is 25 feet of coax to the inside preamp box. By the way, If I unplug the preamp while the TV is on, the picture turns to static in about 1 second.


From there it goes to the splitter described above and the TV and VCR are only 2-3 feet further - except for the bedroom TV with 50 feet of cable.


Once again - Thanks for any help! I really appreciate it!


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tnic* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> your response on best antenna (exact name) to get. I agree with the bigger, higher outside mantra. Main issue where I live is trees.



If you post your zip code, we can be of more help. Your antennaweb list has only 1 digital station. You should also check with the New Orleans local thread to see what antennas people are using in your area.


----------



## tnic

70471. Thanks


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tnic* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 70471. Thanks



The antennaweb results for your zip code for the digital stations (edited a bit) are:


* green - uhf WPXL-DT 26.1 ION NEW ORLEANS LA 173° 33.4 50

* green - uhf WVUE-DT 8.1 FOX NEW ORLEANS LA 165° 31.8 29

* green - uhf WDSU-DT 6.1 NBC NEW ORLEANS LA 166° 32.0 43

* red - uhf WWL-DT 4.1 CBS NEW ORLEANS LA 175° 34.2 36

* red - uhf WUPL-DT 54.1 MNT SLIDELL LA 126° 13.2 24

* red - uhf WNOL-DT 38.1 CW NEW ORLEANS LA 164° 30.0 40

* red - uhf WGNO-DT 26.1 ABC NEW ORLEANS LA 164° 30.0 15

* red - uhf WLAE-DT 31 PBS NEW ORLEANS LA FCC Ext 164° 29.9 31

* red - vhf WYES-DT 12.1 PBS NEW ORLEANS LA 165° 31.9 11

* red - uhf WHNO-DT 20.1 IND NEW ORLEANS LA 173° 33.4 21


You have one station, WYES-DT PBS 12 broadcasting on VHF 11, the rest are currently at UHF. Except for WUPL-DT My Network 54 station in Slidell, the stations are in a 10 degree spread in azimuth at around 30 miles. Looking at a FCC spreadsheet, WVUE-DT Fox 8 will be switching it's digital broadcast to upper VHF 8 in 2009 after the analog shutdown. Pretty straightforward case for medium range directional antenna or antennas which can receive UHF and upper VHF 7 to 13. Lots of viable choices here from Channel Master, Winegard, Radio Shack, AntennasDirect.


----------



## iluvmysh

despite the numerous pages.. i skimmed through a few.. i was wondering if anyone could tell me if there is an antenna that's the "best bang for the buck" that i can get? i went to antenna web and it recommended me a yellow-uhf... thanks for any help!


edit: this will be used in my bedroom.. i'd like to utilize an antenna that's indoor. there's i'd say a house that's directly in view that's blocking the towers (if the towers are in downtown LA)?


----------



## m_vanmeter

Silver Sensor by Zenith ( if you can find one, seem to be very rare now )


or something like this from Antennas Direct
http://www.antennasdirect.com/SR8_indoor_yagi.html


----------



## calvinb

Guys I need some help with my OTA setup (I will probably post in my local also). I recently split my OTA feed in order to get OTA on another HDTV in another room. In main room #1 I am feeding an HR10-250 and in room #2 I am feeding an HR-20. ( I do realize these both have dual internal tuners, therefore the signal is split again internally, correct?) Feed is coming from a CM 4221 in the attic and also going thru the CM Titan 7777 pre-amp. I am splitting the cable on the output side of the 7777 in order to feed both rooms. On windy days / marginal weather days, I am getting dropouts on my local CBS station (WSPA-DT) and also my local Fox (WHNS-DT). This was quite annoying yesterday during the race and the golf tournament (dropouts on both stations!). A month ago I never had problems. So my questions are; how do I resolve? Bigger antenna, less splitting? With March madness coming up I am concerned about my local HD feed (no Mpeg4 in Greenville yet). I am located in zip 29650 in Upstate SC, about 20 miles from WSPA-DT.


----------



## Rick0725

issue on windy days.


you are noticing the drop outs more now...you always had them. splitting the signal lowered the signal just enough to make dropouts more pronounced.


2 things to address...maybe 3


-get the antenna outside..multipath from the outside and inside environment


-replace the antenna with different style antenna . bowties tame multipath poorly. you will also need an antenna a few sizes bigger with more gain to increase the signal strength... so if the signal drops it would be high enough not to cause issues.


-the cm7777 is a tadd high gain for your setup with stations in yellow and distances from towers.


* yellow - vhf WNTV-DT 9.1 PBS GREENVILLE SC 292° 9.1 9

* yellow - uhf WYFF-DT 4.1 NBC GREENVILLE SC 312° 24.5 59

* yellow - uhf WSPA-DT 7.1 *CBS* SPARTANBURG SC 360° 18.5 53

* yellow - uhf WLOS-DT 13.1 ABC ASHEVILLE NC 328° 45.9 56

* yellow - uhf WHNS-DT 21.1 *FOX* ASHEVILLE NC 314° 30.8 57

* yellow - uhf WYCW-DT 62.1 CW ASHEVILLE NC 329° 27.6 45

* red - uhf WGGS-DT 16.1 TBN GREENVILLE SC 292° 9.1 35

* red - uhf WUNF-DT 33.1 PBS ASHEVILLE NC 328° 45.9 25



If I came across your situation would suggest to replace the cm4221 with a 43xg or similar which would tame the multipath issue better and is more drectional with high front back ratio....and a small 5 bay vhf to receive high band vhf.


your preamp has plenty of gain to supply your system...maybe too much.


fyi- received a couple of complaints for fox and dropouts yesterday.


----------



## jvandrew

Hey, I'm new to OTA HDTV. I've been doing some reading and have a couple questions.


1. My zip code is 08246 (it's a tiny, tiny zip, so I live right in the center of the zip). When I put this into antennaweb, it only gives me info about ABC/FOX/CW from Philadelphia, PA and NBC from Atlantic City. I am fine with NBC Atlantic City, but I am shooting for ABC/CBS/FOX from New York, NY. According to antennaweb, the transmitter for those NY stations is 54.1 miles from Toms River, NJ. I live 63 miles due South of Toms River, so I figure I'm about 127 miles from the NY transmitters. it seems like there is some success getting stations from this far, especially since there isn't a single area that is even above sea level between myself, Toms River, and NY. It is flat as can be. Can anyone recommend any antenna/amp setup where I might be able to get the stations? Maybe one of these parabolic antennas? I understand this would have to be a pretty serious setup if feasible.


2. I think I already know the answer to this question. If the antenna setup works, is there any way to diplex it into my cable line and view the channels on my Motorola 6200 digital cable box? I assume the answer to this is no and I have to get a separate ATSC tuner for OTA, and use the digital cable box for the cable channels. I of course do get local channels from Comcast on the 6200, but although we used to get some locals from NY and Philadelphia, Comcast has been taking away the NY stations (Comcast owns Philadelphia sports teams, and they ram them down our throats). Hence why I'm interested in an antenna solution.


----------



## Dieter2

Does anyone in the US sell Soontai products?


For example:


BPF - 174-216 (bandpass filter)

HPF - 174 (high pass filter)

HPF - 470

LPF - 216 (low pass filter)

DPX1 - 265/470 (diplexer)


Or similar products from other companies?


Thanks


----------



## Rick0725

You have a shot at philladelphia. nyc highly unlikely.


cm4228, cm7777 amp, and rotor.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dieter2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does anyone in the US sell Soontai products?
> 
> 
> For example:
> 
> 
> BPF - 174-216 (bandpass filter)
> 
> HPF - 174 (high pass filter)
> 
> HPF - 470
> 
> LPF - 216 (low pass filter)
> 
> DPX1 - 265/470 (diplexer)
> 
> 
> Or similar products from other companies?
> 
> 
> Thanks


 http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf 


or

http://www.tinlee.com (Canada) for more custom/specific needs.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dieter2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Does anyone in the US sell Soontai products?



You can buy direct if you'll take 500 of the same item. You wouldn't believe how low their prices are in that quantity.


----------



## jaceace32

Hey guys, i've been searching like crazy for the discontinued Radio Shack 15-1862 antenna.. Does anyone happen to have an extra lying around or know if some radio shacks still carry them?


-Jonathan


----------



## calvinb

Is it possible to combine a distribution amp (like a CM 3044) with a pre-amp (like a CM 7777)? Or is this a bad idea, ie, too much amplification? I am dealing with a split OTA line feeding two HDTV's. Thanks in advance for any advice.


----------



## Rick0725

it is normally not suggested nor typical to combine a preamp with a distribution amp in a setup.


unless your runs are excessive. you loose about 1 db per 16-18 ft and you need to include the losses in the splitters.


just slitting 2 ways is really not much unless the signal coming from the antenna is marginal


it is best to ask for more details of your setup before we quess what the issue is.


zipcode

where is the antenna

describe your wiring hookup

length of runs

-antenna to distribution point

-length of each run

-do you diplex with satellite, etc.


----------



## calvinb

Rick, thanks for the feedback. Some of my info is a few messages back on pg 26. I am in 29650. 4221 antenna in attic. About 60 ft' of RG6 to TV #1 (using HR10-250). OTA split is on output side of CM 7777 at TV #1. Then another 40 ft of RG6 to TV #2 and HR-20. Currently using a regular "HD" splitter (no such thing I know) to split the OTA feed. I do not diplex. I need the pre-amp to pull in several of the local channels (espec. WLOS-DT which is 45+ miles away and WHNS-DT is 30+ miles away). I am considering using a CM distrib amp to replace the regular old splitter. I really do not want to change antennas or put something on the roof. In theory, D* and MPEG 4 are in my immediate future and I can go back to not splitting my OTA. I will keep my 4221 though, as long as my HD TiVo works. Thanks again for the advice.


----------



## Rick0725

the cm4221 is typically a 20-35 mile antenna outdoors.


the cm7777 offers plenty of gain for your splits.


not what you want to hear but that is the deal.


----------



## Dieter2

Thanks for the reply, cpcat.


I am trying to eliminate interference. Filters are the obvious method,

but lacking that, a diplexor with better rejection might help.


I already have the Picomacom diplexors. They are okay, but the Soontai

ones look like they would be better. The Picomacom UVSJ claims 23 dB rejection,

Soontai claims better than 45 dB rejection.


The Tinlee products claim good specs, but are custom and priced accordingly.


The Soontai products have good specs. They appear to be mass produced rather

than custom, so they should be less expensive than Tinlee. Doesn't anyone in

the US sell Soontai products? Is Soontai the only company that mass produces

filters?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *calvinb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is it possible to combine a distribution amp (like a CM 3044) with a pre-amp (like a CM 7777)? Or is this a bad idea, ie, too much amplification? I am dealing with a split OTA line feeding two HDTV's. Thanks in advance for any advice.



Your zipcode has several stations that may be less than 15 miles away...depending on your location.

It would help to tell us how close you are to Greenville stations

(or identify some nearby cross streets...or post antennaweb.org results).


Normally the CM7777 would be poor-marginal for use 10-15 miles from nearby towers.

However attic losses and terrain blockages could reduce input signal levels to more acceptable levels.


In order to ascertain whether there is TOO much signal going into the CM7777, temporarily

insert an RF Splitter (3-4 dB loss) between the antenna's balun transformer and the CM7777.

If this improves your situation you could decide to leave it--or replace with a lower gain Winegard Preamp.


"Overdriving" causes loss of sensitivity for certain channels, depending on characteristics of

intermodulation interference. Inserting 3-4 dB of loss will REDUCE undesirable intermodulation

interference by a factor of THREE (9-12 dB), pushing the Preamp's sensitivity back towards

the thermal noise floor.


Strong signals on the output of the CM7777 can not only overdrive the distro amp,

but it can in turn overdrive your HDTV, even with some splitters.


=======================================

If the above test makes reception much worse, you are probably suffering from either too weak

a signal---or multipath problems---in which case you might want to consider trying different attic locations,

change to lower gain/higher overload Winegard Preamp and a possible antenna upgrade to the CM4228.


----------



## cpcat

I don't know exactly what you are trying to do, but you can always gang two filters in series for added rejection. I use the high side of a Pico HLSJ as a front end filter on my antenna (in addition to the front end filtering already on the preamp) and also use another down-line for both added filtering and also as a power injector via the low port.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *calvinb* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Rick, thanks for the feedback. Some of my info is a few messages back on pg 26. I am in 29650. 4221 antenna in attic. About 60 ft' of RG6 to TV #1 (using HR10-250). OTA split is on output side of CM 7777 at TV #1. Then another 40 ft of RG6 to TV #2 and HR-20. Currently using a regular "HD" splitter (no such thing I know) to split the OTA feed. I do not diplex. I need the pre-amp to pull in several of the local channels (espec. WLOS-DT which is 45+ miles away and WHNS-DT is 30+ miles away). I am considering using a CM distrib amp to replace the regular old splitter. I really do not want to change antennas or put something on the roof. In theory, D* and MPEG 4 are in my immediate future and I can go back to not splitting my OTA. I will keep my 4221 though, as long as my HD TiVo works. Thanks again for the advice.



My brother in law brings in WLOS-DT as well as the others from Greer, SC with a Silver Sensor in his attic. He has around 50 ft. RG6 and no preamp to one TV.


Have you tried it without the preamp and just to one TV without the splitter?


You may find that you actually need less amplification, not more. I might also try it with the distribution amp alone placed right before the split.


----------



## newsposter

I need recommendations for a reliable amp for a long cable run. I have a DB8 on the roof then 25 ft of wire coming into my unheated attic, then the leviton 25db amp with fm trap, then 75 ft of wire to my HDtivos where they are split. (do freezing/high temps of attic perhaps play havoc with it also?)


The amp works great...when it works. after a year of it, I had to flip the fm trap every once in a while to get it to work. It used to be seasonal but towards december, i'd flip it on a few days, then off, etc etc. Just seemed like flipping the switch made it work.


i got a new one, same model. Well i'm headed down the same path again in the first 2 months of ownership. Got low signals but flip it on and off and it's ok for a while.


i do not want a preamp as i cant get to the antenna. Also my installer tried one and my amp was better anyway. So where's a good dependable one with a trap? I am not sure now that i really need the trap, maybe the switch was just all goofy, but isnt it better to have and not need than the other way around?



edit to add.: at no point are any wires in any conditioned' space. What I mean is heated etc. The wires all run thru the attic and outside thru a breezeway blah blah.


The closest thing it comes to heat is when it enters the crawlspace under the house but that's only 10 ft from where the line comes up thru the living room floor. So pointless to put it there. And I do have electric in the attic.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I need recommendations for a reliable amp for a long cable run. I have a DB8 on the roof then 25 ft of wire coming into my unheated attic, then the leviton 25db amp with fm trap, then 75 ft of wire to my HDtivos where they are split. (do freezing/high temps of attic perhaps play havoc with it also?)
> 
> 
> The amp works great...when it works. after a year of it, I had to flip the fm trap every once in a while to get it to work. It used to be seasonal but towards december, i'd flip it on a few days, then off, etc etc. Just seemed like flipping the switch made it work.
> 
> 
> i got a new one, same model. Well i'm headed down the same path again in the first 2 months of ownership. Got low signals but flip it on and off and it's ok for a while.
> 
> 
> i do not want a preamp as i cant get to the antenna. Also my installer tried one and my amp was better anyway. So where's a good dependable one with a trap? I am not sure now that i really need the trap, maybe the switch was just all goofy, but isnt it better to have and not need than the other way around?



Yeah, it's probably better to have one, just in case. Channel Master and Winegard both make excellent, low noise amps.


You can try:

www.solidsignal.com ,

www.warrenelectronics.com .


----------



## newsposter

are those amps ok to just have sitting in the unprotected attic on the floor? They all seem to be mast mount. Obviously my attic "weather" shouldn't be an issue since they are designed for outside i assume


----------



## Dieter2

> you can always gang two filters in series for added rejection


Already tried that, along with multiple FM traps.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *newsposter* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> are those amps ok to just have sitting in the unprotected attic on the floor? They all seem to be mast mount. Obviously my attic "weather" shouldn't be an issue since they are designed for outside i assume



The distribution amps do not have to be mast-mounted (neither do the pre-amp/amp types, for that matter). Both places sell both types - you just have to search the sites a little more thoroughly.


If you're definitely going to keep the unit up there, you might as well go with the 2-piece, mast mounted type, which is built to withstand outside weather anyways. You can just screw the pre-amp down to anything - it doesn't HAVE to go on a mast.


If you'd rather use a distribution-type amp, then I would keep it outside of the attic - you'd still have to plug it in somewhere outside of the attic anyway.


----------



## Dieter2

> i got a new one, same model. Well i'm headed down the same path again

> in the first 2 months of ownership. Got low signals but flip it on

> and off and it's ok for a while.


You might try some contact cleaner on the switch. Or open up the

box and solder a jumper across the switch.


> i do not want a preamp as i cant get to the antenna.


A preamp does not *have* to be right at the antenna. That's just the best

location to pick up the least possible amount of noise.


You can use an unswitched FM trap inline ahead of an amp that doesn't

have a FM trap. A "distribution" amp may not have a FM trap, and

will not be weatherproof.


> do freezing/high temps of attic perhaps play havoc with it also


Hmmm, perhaps the temp contraction/expansion could be contributing to

the switch problems?


High temps will shorten the life of electronics. On the other hand,

preamps survive being in direct sunlight for years.


You could run coax down into a closet and put the amp there.


----------



## JETninja

Quick Question...


I Bid and won an auction on e-Bay for a Zenith Silver Sensor Antenna......


What arrived today is the Philips version. The Pic on the box looks exactly like the Zenith version, and I mean exactly. But I bid specifically on the Zenith one because I know the reputation of that Antenna....I don't know if there is anything different then in the Philips version.


Can anyone tell me if they are the same? Or is there some difference I should know about, and in that case get back to the seller. (its a Canadian place, they sell these all day long)


Thanks!!!


----------



## wonderwoman77

Wondering what kind of Mast Mount Pre-Amp I should get for my TV?I have a 30" Sanyo HDTV hooked up to a RS VU190XT.Currently it is only up about 15-18' on a mast pole that houses my 2m/440 Ham antenna.I plan to raise it to 30-40' this summer if I can.My Zip Code is 45319 and I get all the Dayton HD stuff ok.I have no rotor ATM,but I have the antenna aimed about 210-220° to get Cincinnati stations.I get WLWT(5),WSTR(64),WCET(48) without trouble.Rarely,I get WKRC(12),WXIX(19),WPTO(14).I am thinking if I add an amp,I could buck up those signals to where the TV could get a "lock".I also am going to get a rotor later.I can get a Hy-Gain for $62.95 locally and may be getting a free tower to put it all on.I should be able to get the Columbus stuff pretty well also(Except for WSYX(6) and WTTE(28) due to Sinclair's silliness) after getting the rotor.Anyhow,any ideas/recommendations?Thanks.  - Kaci


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JETninja* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Quick Question...
> 
> 
> I Bid and won an auction on e-Bay for a Zenith Silver Sensor Antenna......
> 
> 
> What arrived today is the Philips version. The Pic on the box looks exactly like the Zenith version, and I mean exactly. But I bid specifically on the Zenith one because I know the reputation of that Antenna....I don't know if there is anything different then in the Philips version.
> 
> 
> Can anyone tell me if they are the same? Or is there some difference I should know about, and in that case get back to the seller. (its a Canadian place, they sell these all day long)
> 
> 
> Thanks!!!



They're all the same. Philips bought Gemini Industries who earlier bought accessories part of Zenith,

who in turn obtained manufacturing rights from UK's Antiference:
http://www.accessorystore.co.uk/acat...er_Sensor.html 
http://www.antiference.co.uk/ 

(Antiference website is temporarily under re-construction.)


And Korea's LG got Zenith's ATSC patent rights.


----------



## andy.s.lee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wonderwoman77* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wondering what kind of Mast Mount Pre-Amp I should get for my TV?I have a 30" Sanyo HDTV hooked up to a RS VU190XT.Currently it is only up about 15-18' on a mast pole that houses my 2m/440 Ham antenna.I plan to raise it to 30-40' this summer if I can.My Zip Code is 45319 and I get all the Dayton HD stuff ok.I have no rotor ATM,but I have the antenna aimed about 210-220° to get Cincinnati stations.I get WLWT(5),WSTR(64),WCET(48) without trouble.Rarely,I get WKRC(12),WXIX(19),WPTO(14).I am thinking if I add an amp,I could buck up those signals to where the TV could get a "lock".I also am going to get a rotor later.I can get a Hy-Gain for $62.95 locally and may be getting a free tower to put it all on.I should be able to get the Columbus stuff pretty well also(Except for WSYX(6) and WTTE(28) due to Sinclair's silliness) after getting the rotor.Anyhow,any ideas/recommendations?Thanks.  - Kaci



A good pre-amp would be the Channel Master 7777. It's low noise figure and high gain should give you the best chance at getting the most channels. Since the Dayton channels are coming in so strong (maybe too strong), you may want to aim off-axis for those towers if you find out you're overloading the pre-amp.


The high gain on the 7777 should be enough to overcome any cable / splitter loss in most installations unless you happen to have a very long cable run or multiple power dividers.


You shouldn't have any problems with RG-6 runs of up to a couple hundred feet. Don't use RG-59 since it's twice a lossy per foot compared to RG-6. If you have a ridiculously long cable run (> ~300 ft), you might consider using RG-11.


If you want to split the signal many ways, then a distribution amp like the Channel Master 3044 would fit the bill.


The Cincinnati and Columbus channels you're trying to get are tough indeed. Their distance puts them below the horizon, so you won't be able to get a LOS path. However, they are within reach.


The fact that you are already receiving WLWT(5), WSTR(64), and WCET(48) is a good indication of that. Your difficulty with WKRC(12), WXIX(19), and WPTO(14) is probably related to your antenna's weakness at VHF and low UHF frequencies and/or how well it is aimed. Another combo antenna that might do a little better is the Channel Master 3671. If you really want to go after every last dB of signal, then you're better off going with separate VHF and UHF antennas (which are handled nicely by the 7777 pre-amp, BTW).


If you go the route of separate VHF and UHF antennas, Here are some good options:

- Channel Master 4228 8-bay (UHF)

- AntennasDirect XG91 (better performing UHF Yagi)

- Televes DAT-75 (another high performance UHF Yagi, but funny looking)

- Winegard HD4053 (VHF)


One thing to keep in mind with these high gain antennas is that they have a lot of elements, are highly directional, and start to add up in weight. Some of these antennas are prone to snow accumulation and/or wind drag. Direction control and stability are very important, so you'll have to consider the snow and wind loading aspects of keeping your antennas up and operational under all conditions.


Here's a summary of the channels in your area:
Code:


Code:


Callsgn Type    Channel Freq    Tx_kW   Rx_dBm  Path    Dist    Azimuth
WBDT    (A)     26      543.26  3949.84 -39.9   LOS     33.9    230.4
WDTN    (A)     2       55.25   100.00  -41.3   LOS     34.4    229.7
WKEF    (A)     22      519.26  2340.00 -42.0   LOS     34.5    230.4
WHIO-TV (A)     7       175.26  200.00  -42.9   LOS     32.8    231.2
WPTD    (A)     16      483.26  1510.00 -43.1   LOS     33.8    229.5
WRGT-TV (A)     45      657.25  1142.31 -46.9   LOS     33.9    230.4
WHIO-TV (D)     41      632.31  931.69  -47.2   LOS     32.8    231.2
WDTN    (D)     50      686.31  1000.00 -48.0   LOS     34.4    229.7
WPTD    (D)     58      734.31  290.00  -53.8   LOS     33.8    229.5
WKEF    (D)     51      692.31  95.50   -58.1   LOS     33.9    230.4
WBDT    (D)     18      494.31  29.48   -60.5   LOS     33.9    230.4
WWRD-LP (A)     32      579.26  28.53   -65.6   LOS     28.9    203.2
WRGT-TV (D)     30      566.31  10.55   -66.0   LOS     33.9    230.4
WKOI-TV (A)     43      645.26  2290.00 -67.4   LOS     74.0    232.3
WRCX-LP (A)     40      627.26  1.74    -80.2   LOS     34.7    228.7
WCMH-TV (A)     4       67.25   95.50   -80.8   2Edge   78.7    85.7
WSYX    (A)     6       83.26   77.44   -83.9   2Edge   79.1    88.4
WKOI-TV (D)     39      620.31  441.80  -86.6   1Edge   74.0    232.3
WBNS-TV (A)     10      193.26  316.00  -88.4   2Edge   78.7    85.7
WSTR-TV (A)     64      771.24  5000.00 -88.6   2Edge   93.8    211.4
WLWT    (A)     5       77.24   69.20   -90.6   2Edge   101.1   208.9
WCPO-TV (A)     9       187.25  316.00  -91.0   2Edge   100.1   207.9
WXIX-TV (A)     19      501.26  4468.86 -92.1   2Edge   102.4   209.9
WKRC-TV (A)     12      205.25  316.00  -92.8   2Edge   101.1   207.8
WWHO    (A)     53      705.25  4528.89 -92.9   2Edge   80.2    117.2
WSYX    (D)     13      210.31  46.66   -97.0   2Edge   79.1    88.5
WTTE    (A)     28      555.24  1440.00 -97.5   2Edge   79.1    88.5
WBNS-TV (D)     21      512.31  1000.00 -97.6   2Edge   78.7    85.7
WCET    (A)     48      675.24  2240.00 -97.6   2Edge   101.0   208.9
WCMH-TV (D)     14      470.31  902.00  -98.0   2Edge   78.7    85.7
WLWT    (D)     35      596.31  1000.00 -100.5  2Edge   101.1   208.9
WSTR-TV (D)     33      584.31  303.75  -100.9  2Edge   93.8    211.4
WWHO    (D)     46      662.31  722.24  -101.2  2Edge   80.2    117.2
WCET    (D)     34      590.31  292.93  -105.0  2Edge   101.1   208.9
WCPO-TV (D)     10      192.31  16.30   -105.4  2Edge   100.1   207.9
WKRC-TV (D)     31      572.31  330.00  -107.1  2Edge   101.1   207.8
WPTO    (D)     28      554.31  284.00  -108.1  2Edge   102.4   209.9
WXIX-TV (D)     29      560.31  204.19  -108.9  2Edge   102.4   209.9
WPTO    (A)     14      471.26  204.00  -108.9  2Edge   81.3    235.7

You'll notice that all the distant channels you're trying to get are single or double edge diffracted (under the "Path" column), because you're essentially getting ground-wave that's curving over the horizon.


And attached is the same information represented in radar plot form, showing the direction and relative signal strengths of the various channels. Longer bars indicate stronger signal (10 dB per ring).


I hope this helps.


Best regards,

Andy


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JETninja* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I Bid and won an auction on e-Bay for a Zenith Silver Sensor Antenna......
> 
> 
> What arrived today is the Philips version. The Pic on the box looks exactly like the Zenith version, and I mean exactly. But I bid specifically on the Zenith one because I know the reputation of that Antenna....I don't know if there is anything different then in the Philips version.
> 
> 
> Can anyone tell me if they are the same?



Yes, the Philips Silver Sensor is identical to the Zenith one. Probably made in the same factory, although the Silver Sensor is not that a complicated item to make.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wonderwoman77* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ........I should be able to get the Columbus stuff pretty well also(Except for WSYX(6) and WTTE(28) due to Sinclair's silliness).......... - Kaci



What silliness? I'm confused by this comment. WTTE-DT 36 (28.1) and WSYX-DT 13 (6.1) provide very good OTA signals. As a DTV DXer, I see WTTE-DT quite often here in Indy (@ 165 miles) during times of tropospheric enhancement.


If the "silliness" comment refers to the retransmission-consent scuffle between Time Warner Cable (Columbus) and Sinclair (Columbus stations) earlier this year, that has been resolved, according to posts at the Columbus, OH thread. The cable issue and your ability to receive the Columbus Sinclair stations OTA have nothing in common. And, BTW, I do not work for Sinclair.


Steve


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wonderwoman77* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wondering what kind of Mast Mount Pre-Amp I should get for my TV?I have a 30" Sanyo HDTV hooked up to a RS VU190XT.Currently it is only up about 15-18' on a mast pole that houses my 2m/440 Ham antenna.I plan to raise it to 30-40' this summer if I can.My Zip Code is 45319 and I get all the Dayton HD stuff ok.I have no rotor ATM,but I have the antenna aimed about 210-220° to get Cincinnati stations.I get WLWT(5),WSTR(64),WCET(48) without trouble.Rarely,I get WKRC(12),WXIX(19),WPTO(14).I am thinking if I add an amp,I could buck up those signals to where the TV could get a "lock".I also am going to get a rotor later.I can get a Hy-Gain for $62.95 locally and may be getting a free tower to put it all on.I should be able to get the Columbus stuff pretty well also(Except for WSYX(6) and WTTE(28) due to Sinclair's silliness) after getting the rotor.Anyhow,any ideas/recommendations?Thanks.  - Kaci



I punched your zipcode into www.fccinfo.com and found some (future and existing)

low power stations only 5 miles away from (Post Office?) location....you should enter your location....


These strong signals can reduce the sensitivity of the high-gain CM7777 due to intermod products.

Better choice is lower-gain, high overload tolerant, Winegard AP-8700 Preamp...to ensure

performance as new stations come on-line and if existing stations upgrade power.


If local stations go to high power, you may eventually need to change to the low gain W-G HDP-269.


----------



## andy.s.lee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I punched your zipcode into www.fccinfo.com and found some (future and existing)
> 
> low power stations only 5 miles away from (Post Office?) location....you should enter your location....
> 
> 
> These strong signals can reduce the sensitivity of the high-gain CM7777 due to intermod products.
> 
> Better choice is lower-gain, high overload tolerant, Winegard AP-8700 Preamp...to ensure
> 
> performance as new stations come on-line and if existing stations upgrade power.
> 
> 
> If local stations go to high power, you may eventually need to change to the low gain W-G HDP-269.



Good thinking, holl_ands...


Here's a link to the data directly from the FCC for zip code 45319 .


The three closest transmitters are W20CL on channel 20, a new unnamed application on channel 24, and WWRD-LP on channel 32.


All three are translator stations. W20CL and WWRD-LP are analog and the new one on channel 24 will be digital. Being translator stations, you can expect that these will never broadcast with very much power. They do not produce their own content, and instead take and existing feed and re-broadcast it to serve smaller, isolated communities. These facilities only put out tens of kilowatts, so their field strength will fall to "normal" levels within very short distances.


holl_ands is right that it's a good thing to check for if you live close to any kind of transmitter facility (check for TV, FM, and ham radio stations). Being too close to any transmitter can make life difficult on your amps and tuners.


I excluded W20CL in the previous analysis to avoid confusion, but here's the same analysis with the translators included:
Code:


Code:


Callsgn Type    Channel Freq    Tx_kW   Rx_dBm  Path    Dist    Azimuth
WBDT    (A)     26      543.26  3949.84 -39.9   LOS     33.9    230.4
WDTN    (A)     2       55.25   100.00  -41.3   LOS     34.4    229.7
WKEF    (A)     22      519.26  2340.00 -42.0   LOS     34.5    230.4
WHIO-TV (A)     7       175.26  200.00  -42.9   LOS     32.8    231.2
WPTD    (A)     16      483.26  1510.00 -43.1   LOS     33.8    229.5
WRGT-TV (A)     45      657.25  1142.31 -46.9   LOS     33.9    230.4
WHIO-TV (D)     41      632.31  931.69  -47.2   LOS     32.8    231.2
WDTN    (D)     50      686.31  1000.00 -48.0   LOS     34.4    229.7
WPTD    (D)     58      734.31  290.00  -53.8   LOS     33.8    229.5
W20CL   (A)     20      507.26  3.58    -57.8   LOS     8.8     56.0
WKEF    (D)     51      692.31  95.50   -58.1   LOS     33.9    230.4
W66AQ   (A)     22      519.26  54.00   -58.4   LOS     34.5    230.4
WBDT    (D)     18      494.31  29.48   -60.5   LOS     33.9    230.4
WWRD-LP (A)     32      579.26  28.53   -65.6   LOS     28.9    203.2
WRGT-TV (D)     30      566.31  10.55   -66.0   LOS     33.9    230.4
WKOI-TV (A)     43      645.26  2290.00 -67.4   LOS     74.0    232.3
WRCX-LP (A)     40      627.26  1.74    -80.2   LOS     34.7    228.7
WCMH-TV (A)     4       67.25   95.50   -80.8   2Edge   78.7    85.7
WSYX    (A)     6       83.26   77.44   -83.9   2Edge   79.1    88.4
WKOI-TV (D)     39      620.31  441.80  -86.6   1Edge   74.0    232.3
WBNS-TV (A)     10      193.26  316.00  -88.4   2Edge   78.7    85.7
WSTR-TV (A)     64      771.24  5000.00 -88.6   2Edge   93.8    211.4
WLWT    (A)     5       77.24   69.20   -90.6   2Edge   101.1   208.9
WCPO-TV (A)     9       187.25  316.00  -91.0   2Edge   100.1   207.9
WXIX-TV (A)     19      501.26  4468.86 -92.1   2Edge   102.4   209.9
WKRC-TV (A)     12      205.25  316.00  -92.8   2Edge   101.1   207.8
WWHO    (A)     53      705.25  4528.89 -92.9   2Edge   80.2    117.2
WSYX    (D)     13      210.31  46.66   -97.0   2Edge   79.1    88.5
WTTE    (A)     28      555.24  1440.00 -97.5   2Edge   79.1    88.5
WBNS-TV (D)     21      512.31  1000.00 -97.6   2Edge   78.7    85.7
WCET    (A)     48      675.24  2240.00 -97.6   2Edge   101.0   208.9
WCMH-TV (D)     14      470.31  902.00  -98.0   2Edge   78.7    85.7
WLWT    (D)     35      596.31  1000.00 -100.5  2Edge   101.1   208.9
WSTR-TV (D)     33      584.31  303.75  -100.9  2Edge   93.8    211.4
WWHO    (D)     46      662.31  722.24  -101.2  2Edge   80.2    117.2
WCET    (D)     34      590.31  292.93  -105.0  2Edge   101.1   208.9
WCPO-TV (D)     10      192.31  16.30   -105.4  2Edge   100.1   207.9
WKRC-TV (D)     31      572.31  330.00  -107.1  2Edge   101.1   207.8
WPTO    (D)     28      554.31  284.00  -108.1  2Edge   102.4   209.9
WXIX-TV (D)     29      560.31  204.19  -108.9  2Edge   102.4   209.9
WPTO    (A)     14      471.26  204.00  -108.9  2Edge   81.3    235.7
WOSU-TV (A)     34      591.25  1170.00 -111.3  2Edge   91.5    72.9
WBQC-CA (A)     38      615.25  132.24  -112.9  2Edge   100.1   207.9
W63AH   (A)     63      765.25  10.42   -114.1  2Edge   54.5    348.8
WTLW    (A)     44      651.26  912.00  -115.7  2Edge   96.3    348.0
WSFJ-TV (D)     24      530.31  702.57  -116.2  2Edge   108.4   80.5
WTTV    (A)     4       67.25   58.90   -117.6  Tropo   196.0   253.1
WOTH-LP (A)     25      537.25  31.02   -117.7  2Edge   100.1   207.9
WGCT-CA (A)     8       181.25  2.62    -118.2  2Edge   77.5    82.5
WRTV    (A)     6       83.25   100.00  -118.4  Tropo   192.1   269.4
WLIO    (D)     8       180.31  22.40   -118.8  2Edge   93.7    350.4
WTTE    (D)     36      602.31  11.20   -119.4  2Edge   79.1    88.5

I happened to use the coordinates 39.918333, -83.948611 to represent the zip code 45319. If wonderwoman77 is closer to some of these transmitters then a re-evaluation may be warranted. But as you can see, even at only 8.8 km (~5.5 mi), the signal strength of W20CL is already less than the signal levels coming from most of the Dayton channels.


The updated radar plot is also attached.


Best regards,

Andy


----------



## holl_ands

Hey Andy--the above "Rx dBm" calculations appear to be way, way too low....maybe they are spectral density???

I'm also curious as to why W20CL is listed with only 3.58 kW ERP, whereas FCC license indicates

10 kW max with downward beam tilt and did not include the usual azimuthal antenna pattern.

What's going on????


PS: Distance in table is obviously in km (vice miles).


===================================

Levels I'm familiar with are shown in the fol. two jpg's for path calculations at my location,

using the (FREE) RADIO MOBILE propagation prediction program.


"MediaFlo_CH53-to-RH" is a 50 kW transmitter that is LOS at 3.2 km (2.0 miles).

RM calculates -1.7 dBm at output of antenna (OUCH!!!). [Of course, at 4.0 miles it would drop to -7.7 dBm.]


Because CH55 is already occupied, Qualcomm (based in San Diego), temporarily set up a MediaFlo

transmitter on Black Mtn using CH53.

Unfortunately, almost in my back yard, rather than one of the usual locations.....

And thankfully, with only one nearby transmitter, the intermods are greatly suppressed.


"KSWB-DT to RH" is a 323 kW transmitter that is LOS at 35.9 km (22.4 miles).

RM calculates -17.5 dBm at the output of a 10 dBd antenna.

(With 4470 kW Analog counterpart at -9.2 dBm.....et. al.)


I've attached a simplified "DTV Overload Calculation" spread sheet that illustrates simple LOS calculations.

The KSWB-DT example replicates RADIO MOBILE results and provides "typical" receive levels at various LOS ranges.


I also included an example calculation at increasing LOS ranges for a 10 kW low power transmitter,

showing the range at which various Preamps would be desensitized.


Yup, the CM-7777 is likely to be severely desensitized by the nearby low power transmitters.


One of the lower gain Winegard Preamps would be a better choice.

It would help if we knew how far and which direction wonderwoman77 is from W20CL tower

(or from center of Donnelsville) to compare AP-4700 vs HDP-269.


BTW: www.antennaweb.org lists W47CB on CH47, (which does not exist in FCC database)

in same location as W20CL (on CH20 per FCC database).

In www.2150.com , W47CB is also listed, but license sez W20CL on CH20.....I guess W47CB is really W20CL.

So this is probably (yet another) error in antennaweb....
 

 

DTV_Overload_Calc_RevH - wonderwoman77 in Ohio.zip 8.5263671875k . file


----------



## andy.s.lee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey Andy--the above "Rx dBm" calculations appear to be way, way too low....maybe they are spectral density???
> 
> I'm also curious as to why W20CL is listed with only 3.58 kW ERP, whereas FCC license indicates
> 
> 10 kW max with downward beam tilt and did not include the usual azimuthal antenna pattern.
> 
> What's going on????



Great! It looks like someone's paying attention to details. Actually you're right on the W20CL issue. In my older snapshot of the FCC database, they had actually included an antenna pattern ID even though they specified a non-directional configuration. The antenna ID happened to match an existing antenna ID in their database, so my software used it. I've corrected that now. Nice catch!



> Quote:
> Levels I'm familiar with are shown in the fol. two jpg's for path calculations at my location,
> 
> using the (FREE) RADIO MOBILE propagation prediction program.
> 
> 
> "MediaFlo_CH53-to-RH" is a 50 kW transmitter that is LOS at 3.2 km (2.0 miles).
> 
> RM calculates -1.7 dBm at output of antenna (OUCH!!!). [Of course, at 4.0 miles it would drop to -7.7 dBm.]
> 
> 
> Because CH55 is already occupied, Qualcomm (based in San Diego), temporarily set up a MediaFlo
> 
> transmitter on Black Mtn using CH53.
> 
> Unfortunately, almost in my back yard, rather than one of the usual locations.....
> 
> And thankfully, with only one nearby transmitter, the intermods are greatly suppressed.
> 
> 
> "KSWB-DT to RH" is a 323 kW transmitter that is LOS at 35.9 km (22.4 miles).
> 
> RM calculates -17.5 dBm at the output of a 10 dBd antenna.
> 
> (With 4470 kW Analog counterpart at -9.2 dBm.....et. al.)



There are at least 3 important differences in what / how the models differ which accounts for the differences. I hadn't gone into all the details of the RF calculations in the models since I thought it might be a bit out of scope for this forum, but since you asked, it's a great chance to share...


1) Your model includes receiver gain factors. RADIO MOBILE can account to antenna gain, pre-amp, cable losses, etc. In this case, it looks like you were including about 10 dB of net gain at the receiver. My modeling does not take into account any receiver. That is, it only estimates the field strength dBuV/m at a point in space. Since every receiver chain is different, I left that up to the reader to add/subtract his/her receive path's gain/loss. This should account for about 10dB of difference.


2) Your results seem to be derived from two different modeling techniques: a) free space loss, and b) first Fresnel zone terrain model. These are extremely common models, yet they tend to be optimistic. Free space loss is, by definition, the most optimistic model. Fresnel zone modeling accounts for diffraction effects, but its accuracy will vary depending on the exact shape of the terrain profile. There's a big difference between a true knife edge diffraction and skimming across the top of a flat rounded obstruction. The Longley-Rice model takes a different approach by modeling the physics along the entire path of the profile. It takes into account groundwave, diffraction, tropospheric, and earth curvature effects and integrates the cumulative effects along the given terrain profile. The intent of the model was to be as realistic as possible. So certain terrain profiles can certainly cause the L-R model to differ significantly from the other models. This may account for another ~10dB of difference.


3) Most of these models (and there are a whole lot of others out there) use empirically derived "fudge factors" to make the predictions fit with real-world expectations. In the case of the L-R model, there are aspects of the model that depend on the EM properties (permittivity, permeability) of the terrain the wave is passing over. Radio waves will behave differently passing over water vs. sand vs. ferrous rock. In the L-R model, they've put together a table of these properties for different terrain approximations. Seven different parameter tables have been empirically derived for these classifications of terrain: equatorial, continental subtropical, maritime tropical, desert, continental temperate, maritime temperate over land, and maritime temperate over sea. I use continental temperate since that is most applicable to North America.


Also as part of the L-R are two dimensions in the "statistical bell curve" for each estimate. Since we don't know _exactly_ what the composition of the terrain is, there is a Confidence measure and a Reliability measure associated with how conservative/aggressive you want the estimate to be, using terrain variability statistics. The FCC has standardized on using a (50%, 90%) confidence/reliability setting for evaluating license applications for coverage and interference analysis. I've found that setting to be too optimistic compared to my own field testing, so I use a (99%, 99%) setting in my models. Maybe I'm being a little too conservative, but I've found good correlation between my simulated and measured results. If I run the same model using the FCC settings, I get estimates that are about 20 dB higher, but I still feel that those numbers are a bit too optimistic. Perhaps the true value should be somewhere in between (50,90) and (99,99). This probably accounts for about 20dB of difference.




I think that estimating amp overload using optimistic models, as you have been doing, is a good thing since you'll actually be on the conservative side in avoiding strong signals.


I think my results are actually more realistic if you're looking at measurements taken with a spectrum analyzer. From my experience, I think that (99,99) is much more consistent with reality than (50,90), but the numbers are about 10 dB too low. Overall, the L-R model has been the most realistic model I've ever used. It's probably due to the fact that it actually takes into account much more real data than any other model commonly used.


No matter what, there's always varied and uncontrolled differences between simulated results and real-world measurements. In the end, I don't think it's the absolute accuracy that matters, but rather the overall trends and relative quantities that can be gleaned from the simulation results.


In one model, you may find that your receivability cutoff is at -60dBm. In another, the cutoff might be -90dBm. In either case, the important thing is that things above that threshold are easy to get and things below that threshold are difficult to get. Once you begin to get a feel for and understand the model you are using, the net benefit ends up being the same.


If it makes you feel any better, you can add a constant fudge factor like 40dB (or whatever it happens to be) to make my numbers line up with the numbers you're used to seeing. I still contend that the L-R model correlates with reality the best, although the conservative settings probably drop the dBm values by about 10 dB compared to reality.



> Quote:
> BTW: www.antennaweb.org lists W47CB on CH47, (which does not exist in FCC database)
> 
> in same location as W20CL (on CH20 per FCC database).
> 
> In www.2150.com , W47CB is also listed, but license sez W20CL on CH20.....I guess W47CB is really W20CL.
> 
> So this is probably (yet another) error in antennaweb....



I've frequently found strange omissions or inclusions in the antennaweb database. I think it's great that they've created a simple to use interface to help guide the average OTA customer. But being the engineer that I am, I find that actually understanding relative signal strengths of channels is far more useful than the colored pie charts antennaweb gives you. As such, I'd still point people at antennaweb as a starting point and then refer to my own analysis when it comes to understanding the details of a particular installation.


Thanks for the great comments.


Best regards,

Andy


----------



## majik99

I have a quick question. I am now using the Terk HDTVa from best buy. My zip is 76132. I live in an apartment with a western view and the towers are to the east. I am on the second floor and can get all of the UHF stations perfectly. The only one I am having trouble with is WFAA. I know that it is VHF, and a lot of people in Dallas area have trouble receiving it. I can usually get it pretty well with a few disruptions every once in a while. Sometimes the sound goes for a second or so every 10 seconds. Which makes watching very annoying. With the Terk it only has rabbit ears for VHF. Is there a better option for VHF with an indoor antenna? I read some reviews for this antenna http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Phili...oductDetail.do 

Would it improve my VHF reception? I could most likely hang it near the ceiling instead of on a lower book shelf like I have the Terk now. Or I could put on the west facing patio. I dont know if that would help or not. Thanks again.


----------



## Nitewatchman

Few things I should comment on related to the recent discussion+wonderwoman77's situation as it involves my general area+Local stations I'm familiar with ...


WWRD-LP is currently on 55, transmits from Near Bellbrook, OH(SouthEast of Dayton, basically) it's a independant LPTV station, not a translator. They've run various religious+home shopping programming over the years, I can even recall seeing shows such as "The rifeman", and "leave it to beaver" on there in the past. They are currently mostly running "Gospel Music channel". They have a current analog CP to move to 32. It really shouldn't be an "overload" issue from Donnelsville, which is outside of it's "predicted" service area. Here's a Link to their website :

http://www.lifebroadcastingnetwork.org/wwrd_tv_55.htm 


Here's the contour map from FCC website that shows their transmitter location+predicted service area :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=TX286845.html 


W20CL(TBN translator) was on 47 (was W47BC) until a little over a year ago when they moved to 20 because of interference protection issue with a Lima DTV station on 47. The W20CL antenna pattern is shown on FCC site as non-directional, that is why there isn't antenna pattern(azimuth) info shown for their current facilities on FCC site (relative field values would be "1" in all directions) - It does show ERP at 8.7 KW ERP, 10.2 KW below Horizontal plane(beam tilt) See here:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state...&slon2=&size=9 


The LD app on 24 for Springfield is a digital companion channel app from W20CL. I don't recall exactly how I matched it up on a previous occasion, but somewhere in FCC CDBS info at some point in the process for original application for digital companion channel the realted analog facility ID was shown, but now I can't seem to dig that up. The last time I checked it, FCC hadn't granted their app yet, and the most recent action was an amendment to lower power because of interference protection concern invloving co-channel WCVN-DT 24, Covington, KY(Just across Ohio river from Cincinnati).


the good news is, W20CL transmitter location is NE of Donnelsville, between the two curves on SR41, so she shouldn't need to be aiming the front side of antenna anywhere near it, but it could easily be right off the back side of antenna ....


The bad news is, If She's east of Donnelsville on/Near and North of US 40 (between Springfield+Donnelsville), it's possible she could be as close as a few thousand feet to W20CL (I didn't check to see where the zip codes change in that area, however - if she's right on US 40/East of Donnelsville, the closest she could be to W20CL/WEEC-FM/WDHT-FM wuld be 2 miles) ...And, she did tell us in Dayton thread she is near US40/near Donnelsville .....


This will show W20CL+proposed digital facilities on 24 location :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...TX1104982.html 


More bad news is, there are 2 50 KW ERP FM's (WEEC 100.7 +WDHT 102.9) transmitting from nearly the same location as W20CL :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=FM101044.html 

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=FM175936.html 


I suspect The FM's might be the bigger issue here, especially as a VU190 would probably have a decent amount of gain on FM, and perhaps not as much F/B rejection as a higher performance FM Yagi(such as APS-13) -- For instance, while I certianly receive a weak signal here from W20CL from 39 miles away, WEEC+WDHT are at near "blow torch" signal levels, even here ...


While the FM traps in preamps such as CM7778 seem to work fairly well, I dunno how well they'd work if you had two 50KW FM's on your "back door", so I expect some additional attenuation of FM signals before the preamp might be a good idea. A 1/4 wave coax stub filter is fairly inexpensive to make, and if cut precisely enough, could knock down both 100.7+102.9 by nearly 20db -- Of course, you'd probably want to put the stub filter solely on the "VHF" side of things, as I haven't done the math to say what specific channels would be effected in this case, but harmonics involved would cause the stub filter to also effect certian UHF frequencies/channels. With vhf/UHF combo antenna, that would require seperating VHF+UHF before preamp/inserting the filter, and then recombining VHF/UHF either before the preamp if it has a "combined" VHF/UHF input, or use of preamp with seperate VHF/UHF input).


I don't know, but hopefully there's not a RF shielding issue involved here as well ....


----------------


Another issue to pay attention to here are the several Co-channel Cincinnati+Columbus stations : WCPO-DT 10 Cincy/WBNS 10 Columbus, WCMH-DT 14 Columbus/WPTO 14 Oxford, WPTO-DT 28 Oxford(currently transmitting from Cincinnati)/WTTE 28 Columbus, WCET-DT 34 Cincy/WOSU 34 Columbus ... There are also a couple of cincinnati LP's+Columbus digitals that are co channel (WOSU-DT 38/WBQC-CA 38 and WTTE-DT 36/W36DG 36) ----


And, also there are various 1st adajcent channel relationships among Cincinnati/Dayton, or Dayton/Columbus stations ... Perhaps the most "serious" potential problem one given the antenna aiming required being WRGT-DT 30 Dayton, and WXIX-DT 29/WKRC-DT 31 Cincinnati. While FCC "says" as much as 46db d/U ratio should work fine with DTV first adajcent channels, I dunno if that's been proven or not, or what "variances" might be involved regarding different models of tuners selectivity/sensitivity issues/etc, nor do I know what the signal levels/differences between them for those stations at Kaci's antenna actually is ..... I do know co-located 1st adjacent channel facilities seem to work best with DTV ...


Just some thoughts, FWIW ....


----------



## andy.s.lee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *majik99* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a quick question. I am now using the Terk HDTVa from best buy. My zip is 76132. I live in an apartment with a western view and the towers are to the east. I am on the second floor and can get all of the UHF stations perfectly. The only one I am having trouble with is WFAA. I know that it is VHF, and a lot of people in Dallas area have trouble receiving it. I can usually get it pretty well with a few disruptions every once in a while. Sometimes the sound goes for a second or so every 10 seconds. Which makes watching very annoying. With the Terk it only has rabbit ears for VHF. Is there a better option for VHF with an indoor antenna? I read some reviews for this antenna http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Phili...oductDetail.do
> 
> Would it improve my VHF reception? I could most likely hang it near the ceiling instead of on a lower book shelf like I have the Terk now. Or I could put on the west facing patio. I dont know if that would help or not. Thanks again.



You'll probably get better feedback by posting this question in the Dallas thread . Locals may have better information on specific broadcasters than I have.


In any case, attached is the digital channel radar plot for an arbitrary point in zip code 76132. From the looks of it, there are lots of very strong signals coming from the east, including channel WFAA, channel 9. You should have plenty of signal strength to work with.


The more probable explanation for your troubles is multipath. The UHF portion of your Terk antenna is directional, so it's better at picking a single signal while attenuating unwanted extra multipath signal. However, rabbit ears are more omni-directional, so you're probably getting lots of multipath on VHF channels, making them harder to receive.


You might be able to get things more stable by arranging the rabbit ears in a more directional configuration and pointing it in just the right direction. This requires a lot of experimentation, so you'll need to be patient.


You could also try moving the antenna to a location that is subjected to fewer multpath images. It's hard to say where multipath reflections are coming from, so again, this will require a lot of experimentation. Moving the antenna higher (e.g., the attic) might help.


A third option is to use a more directional VHF antenna, but these will tend to be big.


Multipath is difficult to predict and hard to combat, you use your own judgement and experiment as much as you can.


Good luck!


Best regards,

Andy


----------



## wonderwoman77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Few things I should comment on related to the recent discussion+wonderwoman77's situation as it involves my general area+Local stations I'm familiar with ...
> 
> 
> 
> the good news is, W20CL transmitter location is NE of Donnelsville, between the two curves on SR41, so she shouldn't need to be aiming the front side of antenna anywhere near it, but it could easily be right off the back side of antenna ....
> 
> 
> The bad news is, If She's east of Donnelsville on/Near and North of US 40 (between Springfield+Donnelsville), it's possible she could be as close as a few thousand feet to W20CL (I didn't check to see where the zip codes change in that area, however - if she's right on US 40/East of Donnelsville, the closest she could be to W20CL/WEEC-FM/WDHT-FM wuld be 2 miles) ...And, she did tell us in Dayton thread she is near US40/near Donnelsville .....
> 
> 
> This will show W20CL+proposed digital facilities on 24 location :
> 
> http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...TX1104982.html
> 
> 
> More bad news is, there are 2 50 KW ERP FM's (WEEC 100.7 +WDHT 102.9) transmitting from nearly the same location as W20CL :
> 
> http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=FM101044.html
> 
> http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=FM175936.html
> 
> 
> I suspect The FM's might be the bigger issue here, especially as a VU190 would probably have a decent amount of gain on FM, and perhaps not as much F/B rejection as a higher performance FM Yagi(such as APS-13) -- For instance, while I certianly receive a weak signal here from W20CL from 39 miles away, WEEC+WDHT are at near "blow torch" signal levels, even here ...
> 
> 
> While the FM traps in preamps such as CM7778 seem to work fairly well, I dunno how well they'd work if you had two 50KW FM's on your "back door", so I expect some additional attenuation of FM signals before the preamp might be a good idea. A 1/4 wave coax stub filter is fairly inexpensive to make, and if cut precisely enough, could knock down both 100.7+102.9 by nearly 20db -- Of course, you'd probably want to put the stub filter solely on the "VHF" side of things, as I haven't done the math to say what specific channels would be effected in this case, but harmonics involved would cause the stub filter to also effect certian UHF frequencies/channels. With vhf/UHF combo antenna, that would require seperating VHF+UHF before preamp/inserting the filter, and then recombining VHF/UHF either before the preamp if it has a "combined" VHF/UHF input, or use of preamp with seperate VHF/UHF input).
> 
> 
> I don't know, but hopefully there's not a RF shielding issue involved here as well ....
> 
> 
> Perhaps the most "serious" potential problem one given the antenna aiming required being WRGT-DT 30 Dayton, and WXIX-DT 29/WKRC-DT 31 Cincinnati. While FCC "says" as much as 46db d/U ratio should work fine with DTV first adajcent channels, I dunno if that's been proven or not, or what "variances" might be involved regarding different models of tuners selectivity/sensitivity issues/etc, nor do I know what the signal levels/differences between them for those stations at Kaci's antenna actually is ..... I do know co-located 1st adjacent channel facilities seem to work best with DTV ...
> 
> 
> Just some thoughts, FWIW ....




Nitewatchman and others,

That may be the case.Only channels I know of on VHF are WLIODT(8),WCPODT(10),and WSYXDT(13).That is what I have been talking about,the digital channels.I know WDTNDT is on 50,WHIODT is on 41,and so on.The antenna(VU190XT) is aimed SSW to get the Cincinnati stuff.No amp at all,I get WLWTDT,WCETDT,WSTRDT,WKOIDTand all the Dayton/Springfield stuff.I don't expect to get anything from Columbus or Lima as the antenna should be highly directional and block out any signal not near SSW.Add an amp,and you lose everything but the Dayton/Springfield Digital Channels.I don't do any analog as the TWC Cable is hooked up to the analog input and I just leave it that way.Also I would have to think it is possible as some have said for WKRCDT(31) and WXIXDT(29) to be getting overloaded,amp or not,by WRGTDT(30).But I have no idea.We'll see what happens when I raise the antenna later this spring.If conditions are really good of a night,I'll get WKRCDT,WXIXDT,and WPTODT and I'll be happier.But as I had stated,Thanks again for all the help.It is most appreciated.It'll get there.Have a great day!


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wonderwoman77* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Only channels I know of on VHF are WLIODT(8),WCPODT(10),and WSYXDT(13).



Yes, WKRC-DT will be moving to VHF 12 after analog shut off as well. There aren't any Locals for you on Low VHF Currently(WDKY-DT 4 Lexington is Closest), so for local digital reception you don't need the "biggest part" of your current antenna(now+probably in the future as well), and seperate(but smaller, more or less) Hi-VHF/UHF antennas would probably be the best way to go in terms of performance, and in terms of cutting down signal from the Springfield FM's -- Such as XG91 for UHF, Winegard YA1713 for VHF-HI (ch 7-13 - 174~213MHZ) ....


If it stays the way it looks right now, there won't be any Low VHF(ch 2-6 - 54~88MHZ) DTV's in this area after analog shut off either, but you never know what "new" stations may pop up in the future, especially perhaps LP's ....



> Quote:
> as the antenna should be highly directional and block out any signal not near SSW.



It won't block *all* of the signal out, it'll just be much weaker than if you have the antenna aimed that way ... and, it will "reject" more signal in some directions vs. others. I haven't looked for a representation of the VU190's pattern on various frequencies, but, I'm a bit familar with that antenna as I used a VU210 here for about 15 years --- generally, as is the case with most antennas you can count on it rejecting more signal off the side than off the back, although there are antennas available with better directivity(more rejection of signal off side lobes or rear) ....


Given your location, That is why it's very possible very strong springfield W20CL+FM's could be a "overload" problem issue for preamp, and why stronger columbus co-channel stations could still raise the noise floor a bit for you for the Cincinnati stations(Given what I know about the VU210, perhaps especially so regarding WBNS 10/WCPO-DT 10) -- especially when improved conditions for what I'll loosely call "improved beyond the normal everyday situation tropo scattering" signal propagation occurs .... often on a stable, nightly basis around here in spring/summer months with a decent rooftop antenna(but nothing necesarily all that "special") you'll be able to see stable signals out 100~150 miles or so in the evenings through morning hours for hours on end, even via nothing more than "normal" radiational cooling occuring that sets up a "sort of" minor temperature inversion ..... We even had an evening like that last weekend, the night you noted improved reception of Cincinnati stations on Dayton thread, I was seeing good signals out of Lexington+Indianapolis(100~120 miles) ....


And, especially given the above+the current co-channel situation with Columbus/Cincinnati for your location, using antenna system with high degree of directivity would probably be very good idea for your location, especially regarding the Cincinnati stations, the latter for which a preamp(but without the springfield stations WEEC/WDHT-FM, or W20CL nearby, perhaps ... would probably be a good idea as well ......



> Quote:
> .I don't do any analog as the TWC Cable is hooked up to the analog input and I just leave it that way.



Yes, but at present with the analogs still on the air you can still probably(in a general sense) find out a lot about what is happening with your digital reception by looking at the analog stations OTA in the area, and seeing the effects when you add/remove the preamp/etc, especially perhaps the effects on the weaker signals may be of interest. Best to use a TV that doesn't "mute" the screen with blue or black on channels via it's NTSC tuner where there is no or weak or "interference" laden signals are present) in the area. As, Concerning what is "happening" with the reception of the analog stations, you can tell a lot about what is going on by what you can see right on the screen .... such as, generally, snow=weak signal, ghosts=multipath, "squiggly" diagonal lines=interference from a FM carrier, seeing some sort of ugly bit's of signal showing up for stations on channels they aren't transmitting on(other than some bit of signal showing up on 1st adjacent channels for the strongest signals in area - part of that often has to do with the AFT of the tuner, however) is a sign of "overload" issues being a potential problem issue ...


Unfortunetly, With digital reception, when the right "solution" to a problem isn't easily apparent, you probably really just about need a spectrum analyzer($$$$) to "really" be able to properly diagnose what is causing reception issues, although in some cases you can make a good guess, for instance. The meters on digital receiver's usually really don't tell us much .. A common misconception for instance is that they are true "signal strength meters"(understandable, since some are labeled that way right on the screen), but they are not, at least not in any instance I'm aware of ....



> Quote:
> and all the Dayton/Springfield stuff



I'm sure you know this, but keep in mind, except for W20CL, all the TV/DTV stations listed under "springfield" at FCC site actually broadcast from the same "antenna farm" just Southwest of Dayton ..... Springfield in this case only denotes their "community of license"(for WBDT+WRGT if I recall correctly) which they must(and do) serve with a strong/high quality signal(basically) .... Now, in the past (until around 2000 or so), what is now WBDT (previously WTJC 26 - Independant, then WDPX(Pax) for a while) did in fact broadcast from Springfield and a location just South of you.



> Quote:
> Thanks again for all the help.It is most appreciated.It'll get there.Have a great day!



You're welcome+be sure to let us know how it turns out/what you end up with ....


----------



## jmdaught

I live in Pine Grove Mills.

Fed up with the rate hikes, I went and bought a small powered inside antenna at Radio Shack just to see what I would pick up. I found the major stations (PBS, CBS, ABC, FOX)... and then I found this forum.


I am not really satisfied with the inside antenna because I have to fidget with it too much when changing channels. Further, I got poor reception of the local VHF stations.


Although I would love to play around with larger antennas... I simply don't have time. I have too many projects on the table now. Is there anyone who does antenna installs and configs around here? I imagine there are people who do this, and have the equipment to set you up with the best antenna for your house?


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jmdaught* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live in Pine Grove Mills.
> 
> Fed up with the rate hikes, I went and bought a small powered inside antenna at Radio Shack just to see what I would pick up. I found the major stations (PBS, CBS, ABC, FOX)... and then I found this forum.
> 
> 
> I am not really satisfied with the inside antenna because I have to fidget with it too much when changing channels. Further, I got poor reception of the local VHF stations.
> 
> 
> Although I would love to play around with larger antennas... I simply don't have time. I have too many projects on the table now. Is there anyone who does antenna installs and configs around here? I imagine there are people who do this, and have the equipment to set you up with the best antenna for your house?




Welcome to the fourm.

It would help if you post your zip code and you can also check out at www.antennaweb.org and you can find out what you can get and which direction and how many miles away from the tv tower. If you post your zip and you will get better suggestion from of the fourm member.


----------



## holl_ands

For info re local installers, you should try your local thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=453241


----------



## MeowMeow

I was told in another part to post this question over here:


I live 40 Miles from Altoona PA and 60 miles from Pittsburgh PA. I just bought a shiny new HDTV, and I can only pull in one HD channel (34.1, WJAC out of Johnstown, PA).

I live halfway up a hill and there are a few tall trees nearby and opposing hills between the transmitters and me.


What would be an ideal antenna to purchase to get more HD reception in this sort of medium fringe situation?


----------



## andy.s.lee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MeowMeow* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was told in another part to post this question over here:
> 
> 
> I live 40 Miles from Altoona PA and 60 miles from Pittsburgh PA. I just bought a shiny new HDTV, and I can only pull in one HD channel (34.1, WJAC out of Johnstown, PA).
> 
> I live halfway up a hill and there are a few tall trees nearby and opposing hills between the transmitters and me.
> 
> 
> What would be an ideal antenna to purchase to get more HD reception in this sort of medium fringe situation?



If you're living in a hilly / mountainous area, TV reception can be tricky depending on what's blocked and what isn't. You can use antennaweb to tell you which channels are available at your house. Hint: If you expand "options" at the bottom of the page, you can enter a large antenna height (e.g. 200 ft), which will have the effect of returning a greater number of channels. Otherwise, the site will return a very conservative list of channels.


Once you have the results, you can read through the site's suggestions on possible antenna requirements.


Alternatively, if you're willing to provide more precise location (e.g., coordinates) and an estimate of how high you will be installing your antenna (e.g., ground floor, second floor, attic, rooftop, # feet off the ground, etc.), I can generate a more detailed analysis, with my own tools, to predict which channels you can expect.


It's hard to recommend an antenna until we have an idea of how easy or difficult your situation might be.


Best regards,

Andy


----------



## avsforum2005

newbie questions


i pick up a radio shack indoor antenna with a remote. this antenna has 3 level amplified, the max is 19dB. i'm about 23 miles from the tower. since i set my antenna about waist high, i notice setting it to level 3 amplified help make the signal stronger. but i combine it with a signal Attenuator, which has a max of 20dB. so basically, i max out both the indoor antenna amplified at 19dB + the 20dB from the Attenuator.


is there a health concern or safety concern for combining the max of 19dB and 20dB?


thanks in advance


----------



## m_vanmeter

an amplifier "increases" signal.....an attenuator "decreases" signal.


If I read your post correctly you are nulling out any signal increase with the attenuator ????


----------



## avsforum2005

strange. the signal seemed a little more stable with the attenuator added. possible that i have interference because the antenna is so low to the ground. also, with some channels the signal meters are bouncing like crazy, from 0 to 100 strength. but others seemed more stable with the added attenuator.


i need to test more than.


but either way, does this cause any health or safety issues?


thanks


----------



## MeowMeow

My Lat/Long: 37.0625, -95.677068


This will be a roof installation on a two story with a fairly high peak. The roof is in the neighborhood of 30 feet above ground. The pole adds 10 feet. Also, I intend when I do this to move the antenna over to a better line of site, and probably use a single antenna that is either omni- or multi-directional. This time I intend to take a laptop with a tuner card up to the roof so I can play around with the best location on the roof.


I'm not particularly keen on AntennaWeb because it was miles off on the analog channels I can receive. It said I could only receive channel 3 and channel 6 and channel 23, when in point of fact I can receive 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9 (WTOV out of Steubenville, OH), 10, 11, 13, 19, 22, 40 and 53. So, I am assuming that with the right antenna I should be able to get good digital channels from Pittsburgh and Johnstown-Altoona.


I can also receive tolerable signal for 21, 23 and 34 out of OH (the big hill nearby apparently kills 23 out of ALtoona so badly that the Ohio 23 station comes in better). I do wonder if the Ohio analog 34 could be interfering with 34 digital signal from WJAC in Johnstown.


Now, if I couldn't get decent reception on the upper UHF analogs, I'd be complacent and say OK. Now, of course, HDTV tends to require something just a little past decent reception.


Any suggestions are welcome.


Thank you, Andy.


----------



## MeowMeow

Sorry, I didn't even read what I cut and pasted for Lat/Long... Jeez... I bumped the mouse when I was playing around on Google Maps...


40.947937, -78.968056


----------



## andy.s.lee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MeowMeow* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry, I didn't even read what I cut and pasted for Lat/Long... Jeez... I bumped the mouse when I was playing around on Google Maps...
> 
> 
> 40.947937, -78.968056





> Quote:
> This will be a roof installation on a two story with a fairly high peak. The roof is in the neighborhood of 30 feet above ground. The pole adds 10 feet. Also, I intend when I do this to move the antenna over to a better line of site, and probably use a single antenna that is either omni- or multi-directional. This time I intend to take a laptop with a tuner card up to the roof so I can play around with the best location on the roof.
> 
> 
> I'm not particularly keen on AntennaWeb because it was miles off on the analog channels I can receive. It said I could only receive channel 3 and channel 6 and channel 23, when in point of fact I can receive 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9 (WTOV out of Steubenville, OH), 10, 11, 13, 19, 22, 40 and 53. So, I am assuming that with the right antenna I should be able to get good digital channels from Pittsburgh and Johnstown-Altoona.
> 
> 
> I can also receive tolerable signal for 21, 23 and 34 out of OH (the big hill nearby apparently kills 23 out of ALtoona so badly that the Ohio 23 station comes in better). I do wonder if the Ohio analog 34 could be interfering with 34 digital signal from WJAC in Johnstown.
> 
> 
> Now, if I couldn't get decent reception on the upper UHF analogs, I'd be complacent and say OK. Now, of course, HDTV tends to require something just a little past decent reception.



Here is what's expected at your coordinates. In these radar plots, longer bars mean stronger signals. The list to the right of the plot gives details about each transmitter. The Rx_dBm column indicates how strong each signal should be. These values represent the field strength at a point in space, so your antenna gain, amps, cable loss, splitters, receiver sensitivity, dynamic range, etc. are not factored in (since I don't know what they are).



*My interpretation:*


- It looks like all the transmissions are non line-of-sight (LOS). In fact, all of them are either reaching you via a double-edge diffraction ("2Edge" under "Path" column) or tropospheric bounce. This kind of result means that you're surrounded by higher topography that prevents anything from reaching you directly.


- You are correct that there are plenty of analog channels within reach. I think that picking up channels 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 10, 11, 13, 19, 22, and 40 is reasonable. People usually have a very hard time pulling in anything below about -105 to -110 dBm on this scale, so I'd expect analog channels 9, 19, and 53 to have a pretty fuzzy picture if they come in at all. If you are receiving such weak signals, then your antenna is doing an exceptional job at those frequencies.


- The choice of digial channels seems to be quite limited. Even with a fairly good antenna, you're only likely to pick up 3 or 4 digital channels.


- I do not see any signs of interfering transmitters on channel 34. The next strongest broadcast on that channel is too low to register. What analog 34 were you receiving out of Ohio? The closest one seems to be over 340km away, so the only way to receive that would be off the troposphere on a good day.


- In hilly terrain, these readings can be very sensitive to your exact location because a small change in position on the hill can make a big difference in how much blockage you are experiencing. Just to make sure these numbers are accurate, you might want to double-check the coordinates being analyzed. If you are actually higher up on the hill, then you can expect the signal strengths to come out higher. If you are actually receiving watchable pictures on channels 9, 19, and 53, then you're probably at a location slightly better than what I've simulated.



*My recommendations:*


- I'm not sure how much moving around on one rooftop will make a difference. Usually, the small distances that you can move (unless your roof spans a huge area) are not enough to make a significat difference in reception. Usually other factors like tree obstructions, other antenna structures, building blockage, or interference sources (e.g., power lines) play a bigger role than the actual change in signal reception due to positioning.


- However, if you still have the choice and want to optimize things, the best thing to do is place the antenna as far as possible from the obstructions. If you are stuck behind obstructions that force to you have diffracted signals reaching you, you'll want to minimize the angle of diffraction to minimize the signal drop. Moving away from a ridge line usually decreases the angle that the signal must bend.


- That being said, I think you'll get far better improvement with height rather than by horizontal optimization. A few feet of added height will reduce the angle of diffraction for all signals (coming from any direction) and signal strengths will get better as a result.




I hope this helps. Good luck!


Best regards,

Andy


----------



## mightydarwin

First, I'm about 10 miles from the antenna farm here in Houston. I live in an apartment, bottom floor. For OTA HD I first tried an indoor RCA ANT301 (Fry's $19). Not all channels came through strong enough. I took it back and got a Philips SCA060. Much better but it was $15 more.


I happened to be at Electronic Parts Outlet yesterday and they had some Recoton TV2000 antennas (kind of rare now http://www.gizmos2go.com/xcart/produ...?productid=871 ) for $15 so I bought one as it looked to be a simple design. I tried it indoors and it worked great (but better outdoors, natch). Most of the channel's signal strength were on the weak side so I hooked up the amplifier it came with and pow! 2-3 times the signal strength (though I still can't get PBS HD content??) and I can mount it on the wall above my TV where I couldn't with the previous antennea.


Its off-white color makes it less conspicuous than other antennas. And the mounting/placement options are more varied so I'm sticking with this one. Plus it comes with 6', 12', and 40' coaxial cables so no need to spend money on more cables or a long cable if I ever need to mount it outside.


----------



## insomnialex

I have a RadioShack 15-1838 amplified antenna that i picked up for $15.

At first I had the antenna right near the TV, reception was poor and i could only pick up about 3 channels, sometimes.


I checked with antennaweb to find the locations of the HD broadcast towers in the area, moved the antenna to an area of the house where fewer walls and trees would be in the direction of the towers, ran a coax through the attic to the TV and now i can get all the major networks in HD and STV except for PBS without moving the antenna around or messing with the fine tune.


NBC - 2.1, 2.2

CBS - 6.1, 6.2

ABC - 9.1, 9.2

FOX - 35.1

CW - 18.1

27.1 - wrdq

65.1 - mytv


There are some other HD channels that i can pick up, but i din't list them because i deleted them from the TV, and i don't remember what they are.


----------



## Ragnrok23

I just bought a Mitsubishi LT46131. I am trying to get HD channels using this antenna . My zip code is 02790 (if you want a more acurate spot, move east 4 times when using antennaweb.org) I was able to pick up NBC pretty good (about 75%) and I did get a weak (25%) signal from Fox and ABC. I did not get a reading for CBS at all. I am thinking of getting either this or this . If I get the first one I will mount it on the wall behind my TV, if I get the second one, I will just put it on the floor behind the TV stand.


I forgot to add the TV is in the basement. There are no windows in the room. The room to the west of the TV has a window facing north, French Doors facing north, and a window facing west. I am not able to put an antenna outside on in the attic.


----------



## Intheswamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ragnrok23* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I forgot to add the TV is in the basement. There are no windows in the room. The room to the west of the TV has a window facing north, French Doors facing north, and a window facing west. I am not able to put an antenna outside on in the attic.



* yellow - uhf WJAR-DT 10.1 NBC PROVIDENCE RI 339° 21.5 51

* yellow - uhf WNAC-DT 64.1 FOX PROVIDENCE RI 339° 22.1 54

* yellow - uhf WLNE-DT 6.1 ABC NEW BEDFORD MA 339° 21.5 49

* yellow - uhf WLWC-DT 28.1 CW NEW BEDFORD MA 42° 12.9 22

* green - vhf WPRI-DT 12.1 CBS PROVIDENCE RI 341° 22.1 13

* red - uhf WSBE-DT 36.1 PBS PROVIDENCE RI 339° 21.5 36

* red - uhf WWDP-DT 52.1 SAH NORWELL MA 9° 27.8 52

* blue - uhf WPXQ-DT 69.1 ION PROVIDENCE RI 280° 30.4 17

* violet - uhf WCVB-DT 5.1 ABC BOSTON MA 3° 49.3 20

* violet - uhf WBZ-DT 4.1 CBS BOSTON MA 3° 49.3 30

* violet - uhf WHDH-DT 7.1 NBC BOSTON MA 4° 49.2 42

* violet - uhf WGBX-DT 44.1 PBS BOSTON MA 3° 49.3 43

* violet - uhf WGBH-DT 2.1 PBS BOSTON MA 3° 49.3 19

* violet - uhf WDPX-DT 58.1 ION VINEYARD HAVEN MA 96° 36.4 40

* violet - uhf WLVI-DT 56.1 CW CAMBRIDGE MA 4° 48.6 41


In a room in the basement with no windows...you're doing pretty good to get the reception you stated.


If you could get your antenna located in the north window I think you would get the best reception. 339° seems like it would be a good bearing to focus on...21° to the west of north. Looks like the antenna farm in Providence, RI would be the target...it's also 27 miles closer than the farm in Boston. I think your present antenna is sufficient for now...you just need to get it to where it can see the transmitter antennas better.


Ed


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ragnrok23* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just bought a Mitsubishi LT46131. I am trying to get HD channels using [Silver Sensor] . My zip code is 02790 (if you want a more acurate spot, move east 4 times when using antennaweb.org) I was able to pick up NBC pretty good (about 75%) and I did get a weak (25%) signal from Fox and ABC. I did not get a reading for CBS at all. I am thinking of getting either [MANT950] or [Tiny amplified antenna]. If I get the first one I will mount it on the wall behind my TV, if I get the second one, I will just put it on the floor behind the TV stand.
> 
> 
> I forgot to add the TV is in the basement. There are no windows in the room. The room to the west of the TV has a window facing north, French Doors facing north, and a window facing west. I am not able to put an antenna outside on in the attic.



You are around 20 miles from the broadcast towers! Any antenna in the basement is going to have problems, depending in part on how much of the basement is above ground. You need as much elevation as you can. Do you get any better results by raising the Silver Sensor up to the ceiling or at a high point in the room? Try different locations in the room for starters. I also suggest you get a 25' (or longer) RG-6 cable with a RF connector and place the Silver Sensor in the room with a window facing north to see what stations you can get.


However, the Silver Sensor you have is a UHF antenna only! The edited list of the antennaweb results for your local stations shows:

* yellow - uhf WLWC-DT 28.1 CW NEW BEDFORD MA 49° 14.0 22

* red - uhf WJAR-DT 10.1 NBC PROVIDENCE RI 344° 20.4 51

* red - uhf WNAC-DT 64.1 FOX PROVIDENCE RI 343° 21.0 54

* red - vhf WPRI-DT 12.1 CBS PROVIDENCE RI 345° 21.0 13

* blue - uhf WLNE-DT 6.1 ABC NEW BEDFORD MA 344° 20.4 49

* blue - uhf WSBE-DT 36.1 PBS PROVIDENCE RI 344° 20.4 36


WPRI CBS 12 is digitally broadcasting on VHF 13. No wonder the Silver Sensor does not get it at all. You will need rabbit ears for VHF or an antenna with good upper VHF reception to get WPRI. I don't see rabbit ears for the tiny Radio Shack amplified antenna; skip that one entirely. The MANT 950 might work if you get it up to the ceiling level, but no guarantee on this. At $100, it is rather expensive for what looks to be a basic dipole with an amplifier.


----------



## Ragnrok23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> WPRI CBS 12 is digitally broadcasting on VHF 13. No wonder the Silver Sensor does not get it at all. You will need rabbit ears for VHF or an antenna with good upper VHF reception to get WPRI. I don't see rabbit ears for the tiny Radio Shack amplified antenna; skip that one entirely. The MANT 950 might work if you get it up to the ceiling level, but no guarantee on this. At $100, it is rather expensive for what looks to be a basic dipole with an amplifier.




I'm a little confused by this. Considering I NEED CBS (Pats football!) I would almost do without all the other channels just to be able to watch the Pats in HD.







On my TV the stations were showing up as 6.1, 10.1, 64.1......


If I did get the MANT900, I would hang it on the wall about 5 feet high


----------



## Intheswamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You are around 20 miles from the broadcast towers! Any antenna in the basement is going to have problems, depending in part on how much of the basement is above ground. You need as much elevation as you can. Do you get any better results by raising the Silver Sensor up to the ceiling or at a high point in the room? Try different locations in the room for starters. I also suggest you get a 25' (or longer) RG-6 cable with a RF connector and place the Silver Sensor in the room with a window facing north to see what stations you can get.
> 
> 
> However, the Silver Sensor you have is a UHF antenna only! The edited list of the antennaweb results for your local stations shows:
> 
> 
> * red - vhf WPRI-DT 12.1 CBS PROVIDENCE RI 345° 21.0 13
> 
> 
> WPRI CBS 12 is digitally broadcasting on VHF 13. No wonder the Silver Sensor does not get it at all. You will need rabbit ears for VHF or an antenna with good upper VHF reception to get WPRI. I don't see rabbit ears for the tiny Radio Shack amplified antenna; skip that one entirely. The MANT 950 might work if you get it up to the ceiling level, but no guarantee on this. At $100, it is rather expensive for what looks to be a basic dipole with an amplifier.



Since WPRI could be a problem and it's 21-22 miles away I'd try a $5 pair of rabbit ears from a discount store...kind of a cheap VHF alternative. I'm with afiggatt, $100 seems a bit strong to me. Are "asthetics" important to you? If not, you might try an "outdoor" antenna hung close to the ceiling pointing toward that northern window.


Antenna location is very important. The better your antenna can "see" the transmitting antenna the better reception will be. One of my nephews who's moved out on his own mentioned how bad his OTA reception was via the rabbitears he had hooked up. He lives in a mobilehome in a rural area. On a whim I bought a $5 set of rabbitears and cut a long bamboo pole. We taped the rabbit ears to the tip of the 20' bamboo, hooked a coax to the rabbitears and his television. He was amazed at the difference that it made getting the antenna outside and elevated. I love living in south Alabama!










Another option would be to run coax cable to an upstairs location on the north side of the house/apartment, it doesn't have to be in the attic. The extra elevation will help greatly. You could put the antenna in a window on one of the upper levels or, if your house doesn't have any foil-backed insulation/sheathing, you could set it on a shelf in a closet. Placing the antenna on the floor behind the tv would be the worst place...remember that UHF reception is line-of-sight reception and the lowest point (the floor) of a basement (lowest point in the house) will more or less be the worst location for the antenna.


I really think that, other than an outdoor-type antenna, that the Silver Sensor that you have is good enough. If you could put it in a north window I believe it would really make a world of difference.


Location, location, location.










Ed


----------



## Intheswamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ragnrok23* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm a little confused by this. Considering I NEED CBS (Pats football!) I would almost do without all the other channels just to be able to watch the Pats in HD.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On my TV the stations were showing up as 6.1, 10.1, 64.1......
> 
> 
> If I did get the MANT900, I would hang it on the wall about 5 feet high



I just checked out http://www.2150.com/broadcast/ and found that WPRI(CBS) is supposedly transmitting at less than 20kw, whereas WJAR(NBC) is transmitting at 1000kw on one antenna and 526kw on another antenna. WPRI is, for the time being, transmitting at what is termed "lowpower". Many digital stations are transmitting with low power as they check out there equipment and prepare for the big switchover from analog to digital in 2009. Some stations are ahead of others in regards to power output.


As an example, I have an ABC station transmitting digital at 11kw from a distance of 42 miles. It doesn't even make a blip on the receiver with my outdoor 4228 UHF antenna and CM7777 pre-amp. On the opposite end of the spectrum I've got a CBS station transmitting digital at 1000kw 68 miles away that comes in great.


As 2009 nears more and more stations should come online with more power. It is feasible that WPRI *might* increase there power between now and the 2007-2008 football season. You might want to call them (try to get someone in the technical department) and inquire of their plans....who knows, they might even tell you.







But, for now, you're going to be very hard pressed to get reception of WPRI...you may have to settle for analog (non-HD) until they kick the power up.


Best wishes,

Ed


----------



## Intheswamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ragnrok23* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Considering I NEED CBS (Pats football!) I would almost do without all the other channels just to be able to watch the Pats in HD.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On my TV the stations were showing up as 6.1, 10.1, 64.1......



The 6.1, 10.1, etc, are digital sub-channels. Each digital channel is subject to have more than one "channel" associated with it. My local NBC affiliate on channel 12 has three channels...the main primary channel, a weather channel, and "The Tube" (music videos).


I failed to comment on an alternate to WPRI...


CHANNEL4, WBZ-DT (CBS), Boston. This station is transmitting at 825kw which is much stronger than what WPRI is transmitting at. It's antenna is also a couple of hundred feet taller than WPRI's...the added antenna height should help some in negating the extra distance being as WBZ's antenna is roughly 28 miles further away. Since you appear to want CBS over any other channel I would try to run some coax to a 1st or 2nd floor and set the Silver Sensor in a window on the east side of the house.


Remember, too, that the local terrain between your receiver and the transmitting antenna has A LOT to play in all of this. Hills, mountains, tall buildings, etc., etc., between the receiver and transmitter can all cause problems with reception.


Ed


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ragnrok23* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm a little confused by this. Considering I NEED CBS (Pats football!) I would almost do without all the other channels just to be able to watch the Pats in HD.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On my TV the stations were showing up as 6.1, 10.1, 64.1......
> 
> 
> If I did get the MANT900, I would hang it on the wall about 5 feet high



Those are the sub-channels. Usually the HD sub-channel is the .1 channel for the HD stations. However, the digital broadcasts are being done at different channels than the analog channel number you know the station by. The actual broadcast channel is the last number on each row of the antennaweb list. The digital ATSC broadcast standard provides for channel remapping, so the digital channel is automatically mapped to the 6.1, 10.1, 64.1 that you see.


In your case, you currently have one major network digital station on upper VHF (13) and the rest at UHF. In 2009, after the analog shutdown, WNAC-DT Fox 64 will be switching it's digital signal to upper VHF 10 so your antenna setup will need to work for the entire upper VHF 7 to 12 range.


If you get the MANT 900, I would look to place it as high up in the room as possible, but don't fix into place until you have tried out different locations to find a location with good reception.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Intheswamp* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just checked out http://www.2150.com/broadcast/ and found that WPRI(CBS) is supposedly transmitting at less than 20kw, whereas WJAR(NBC) is transmitting at 1000kw on one antenna and 526kw on another antenna. WPRI is, for the time being, transmitting at what is termed "lowpower". Many digital stations are transmitting with low power as they check out there equipment and prepare for the big switchover from analog to digital in 2009. Some stations are ahead of others in regards to power output.



This is mis-leading. The ERP power level requirements are different for each of the three channel bands: VHF low (2 to 6), VHF high (7 to 13), and UHF (14 to 69). The maximum power allowed for digital broadcasts for upper VHF is 65 kW while for the same approximate coverage for UHF, the maximum power is 1000 kW. WPRI-DT licensed power is 18 kW for VHF 13. This is not particularly high power, but the service area map in the FCC database for WPRI-DT shows that it should cover Providence and out to Boston as well. The coverage map may be optimistic, but the OP should be able to get WPRI-DT's signal with the right antenna setup. It is the indoor only requirement that is the challenge.


----------



## Intheswamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> This is mis-leading. The ERP power level requirements are different for each of the three channel bands: VHF low (2 to 6), VHF high (7 to 13), and UHF (14 to 69). The maximum power allowed for digital broadcasts for upper VHF is 65 kW while for the same approximate coverage for UHF, the maximum power is 1000 kW. WPRI-DT licensed power is 18 kW for VHF 13. This is not particularly high power, but the service area map in the FCC database for WPRI-DT shows that it should cover Providence and out to Boston as well. The coverage map may be optimistic, but the OP should be able to get WPRI-DT's signal with the right antenna setup. It is the indoor only requirement that is the challenge.



Sorry to have mislead anyone by my ignorance. I'll bow out of the conversation now. Thanks for the correction afiggatt.









Ed


----------



## Ragnrok23

Thanks for the help everyone


Unfortunatly- looks is very important to the wife. she is already complaining that the antenna has to move- it's on the floor on the side of the TV stand.


I am curious as to why everyone is telling me to point the antenna north? The stations I am trying to get all all to the west. Right now I have the antenna pointing to the west.


I am very limited to what I can I do. Other than drilling holes to hang things on the wall, I am not allowed to do much else


This could all be avoided if Charter would just suck it up and start to offer HD cable I wouldn't have this problem


----------



## whines83

hey guys i have tried several antenna's and i finally found one that works up 70 miles away..


i am getting stations i didnt even know that existed..


this is the antenna i speak of its UHF only.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=family 


i get 25 stations free with 3 of these antenna's.


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jvandrew* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey, I'm new to OTA HDTV. I've been doing some reading and have a couple questions.
> 
> 
> 1. I live 63 miles due South of Toms River, so I figure I'm about 127 miles from the NY transmitters. it seems like there is some success getting stations from this far, especially since there isn't a single area that is even above sea level between myself, Toms River, and NY. It is flat as can be.



Your problem here is the curvature of the earth. The distance to the horizon for WCBS at 395 meters is only about 42 miles. You'd have to have a really high tower (even higher than theirs) to get line-of-sight.


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ragnrok23* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the help everyone
> 
> 
> Unfortunatly- looks is very important to the wife. she is already complaining that the antenna has to move- it's on the floor on the side of the TV stand.
> 
> 
> I am curious as to why everyone is telling me to point the antenna north? The stations I am trying to get all all to the west. Right now I have the antenna pointing to the west.
> 
> 
> I am very limited to what I can I do. Other than drilling holes to hang things on the wall, I am not allowed to do much else
> 
> 
> This could all be avoided if Charter would just suck it up and start to offer HD cable I wouldn't have this problem



Hey, if you can pull it off, you'll have the best quality HD signals available - just look at it that way







.


----------



## Ragnrok23




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hey, if you can pull it off, you'll have the best quality HD signals available - just look at it that way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .




Thanks!


Looks like I am going to give this one a try. I just hope CC lets me return the first one I bought a week later.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ragnrok23* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am curious as to why everyone is telling me to point the antenna north? The stations I am trying to get all all to the west. Right now I have the antenna pointing to the west.



The antennaweb results for your zip code placed the broadcast towers at a magnetic direction of around 345 degrees. The correction for your zip code for magnetic north is 15 degrees W so the compass points 15 degrees west of true north. The means the actual direction to the broadcast towers is around 330 degrees or a little North of NW. You should get better results if you aim the antenna NW.


Go ahead and get the Philips antenna if you insist. It does have rabbit ears for VHF and might even work. But the small amplified antennas that are made for appearance over function don't work as well as a "real" antenna. Good website for antenna basics: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html .

Good luck.


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ragnrok23* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the help everyone
> 
> 
> Unfortunatly- looks is very important to the wife. she is already complaining that the antenna has to move- it's on the floor on the side of the TV stand.
> 
> 
> I am curious as to why everyone is telling me to point the antenna north? The stations I am trying to get all all to the west. Right now I have the antenna pointing to the west.
> 
> 
> I am very limited to what I can I do. Other than drilling holes to hang things on the wall, I am not allowed to do much else
> 
> 
> This could all be avoided if Charter would just suck it up and start to offer HD cable I wouldn't have this problem



Just don't give up on the first try there will be allot of trial and error so keep moving it around until you can find a sweet spot. Just try in the daytime and night time sometime it make differences. If it fails take it back and find difference antenna. Most time CC and BB will have 30 days returns. Just make sure you have plenty of MGD-Lite on hand to move the antenna around







with spring around the bend maybe try to stick the antenna out of doorway or window.


Good Luck

-Willie


----------



## MeowMeow

Thanks to Andy et al (other forums, here, too) for their helps. Still crossing fingers for better weather. Also looking at buying a place on top of a hill right now (not for antenna reasons, but it won't hurt my feelings).


----------



## Intheswamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MeowMeow* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks to Andy et al (other forums, here, too) for their helps. Still crossing fingers for better weather. Also looking at buying a place on top of a hill right now (not for antenna reasons, but it won't hurt my feelings).



The hilltop location definitely won't hurt things!







Unless you have a *definite*, *the antenna absolutely has to go here* location picked out for your antenna you might want to try "probing". It's basically mounting the antenna on your mast but moving it from location to location and raising/lowering it till you get the best reception. Takes some effort but supposedly (see, I didn't do it myself







)works. UHF waves are, if I recall correctly, something like 4-feet apart...thus raising or lowering the antenna just a few feet might actually put you in, or out, of the signal wave. And, of course, moving the antenna around a few feet might move it from a spot of interference to a clear reception spot. You can actually use a smaller, battery-powered tv with it's whip antenna since your interest is in finding the best reception area...then mount your large antenna there.










I just thought I'd mention probing.


Ed


----------



## Intheswamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MeowMeow* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks to Andy et al (other forums, here, too) for their helps. Still crossing fingers for better weather. Also looking at buying a place on top of a hill right now (not for antenna reasons, but it won't hurt my feelings).



I just reread your original post...be very careful on that roof!


Before you climb the roof with the antenna you might want to just try it down on the ground and see what you get. My location seems to be pretty good but my antenna is only 15.5' high. Last night I discovered the "barren area" to my south is actually rich in transmitters...they're just 100+ miles away!!! I'm not sure I will be able to keep receiving them or not, but...










Here's a link to my report on this, in case you're interested: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post9972496 


Best wishes,

Ed

EDIT: Yelp, the 100+ mile reception was tropopheric ducting that brought those stations in so nicely....which opens up a whole new can of interest.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Intheswamp* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> EDIT: Yelp, the 100+ mile reception was tropopheric ducting that brought those stations in so nicely....which opens up a whole new can of interest.



I kind of figured you must have been lucky that way, that night. For a couple of nights last week, during that brief warm spell, I was getting unusually good reception on stations that I can't usually receive.


My personal record is about 150 miles: WTBS-DT in Atlanta for a couple of hours one night last fall. I got to watch most of "Caddyshack," then the signal disappeared right at the beginning of the big golf match at the end.


----------



## pretzelkid

Hello All...

My situation is this, I have 2 stations nearly 180 degrees apart on the same rf channel (19). One is 70 miles away and is WGN in Chicago it's the one i want to receive, and the other is about 50 miles in the opposite direction in Madison Wisconsin which I really couldn't care less about. I have 2 antennas mounted on a 50' tower, a Winegard 7084 combo with rotor and pre-amp(not sure of the model#) and then a side mounted CM4228 with rotor and CM7777 amp mounted about 10' down from the top. I currently can receive Chicago stations like FOX and NBC from Chicago (pretty reliable most of the time) with either antenna but WGN is getting squashed by the Madison station in the opposite direction. I was able to pull in WGN once when the Madison channel went down with antenna problems and lowered power temporarily and on nights when tropo is strong. My question is would I be able to pull in WGN if I changed the 7084 setup with something like an XG91 and 7084 combined into a CM7777 mounted on the top of the tower. I see from some of the documents posted here that the front-back ratio of the XG91 and the CM4228 aren't all that different so if I can't get WGN with the CM4228 I currently have (even though it's about 10' lower on the tower) mating an XG91 with my 7084 won't be that different (although it will be about 15' higher at that point)

I know the only way to find out is to try it but does anyone have any expert opinions?...maybe a different antenna type to combine with my 7084?


----------



## andy.s.lee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pretzelkid* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello All...
> 
> My situation is this, I have 2 stations nearly 180 degrees apart on the same rf channel (19). One is 70 miles away and is WGN in Chicago it's the one i want to receive, and the other is about 50 miles in the opposite direction in Madison Wisconsin which I really couldn't care less about. I have 2 antennas mounted on a 50' tower, a Winegard 7084 combo with rotor and pre-amp(not sure of the model#) and then a side mounted CM4228 with rotor and CM7777 amp mounted about 10' down from the top. I currently can receive Chicago stations like FOX and NBC from Chicago (pretty reliable most of the time) with either antenna but WGN is getting squashed by the Madison station in the opposite direction. I was able to pull in WGN once when the Madison channel went down with antenna problems and lowered power temporarily and on nights when tropo is strong. My question is would I be able to pull in WGN if I changed the 7084 setup with something like an XG91 and 7084 combined into a CM7777 mounted on the top of the tower. I see from some of the documents posted here that the front-back ratio of the XG91 and the CM4228 aren't all that different so if I can't get WGN with the CM4228 I currently have (even though it's about 10' lower on the tower) mating an XG91 with my 7084 won't be that different (although it will be about 15' higher at that point)
> 
> I know the only way to find out is to try it but does anyone have any expert opinions?...maybe a different antenna type to combine with my 7084?



What are your coordinates and antenna height. I can run an analysis to see how things look. Send them via PM if you prefer privacy.


Best regards,

Andy


----------



## KenL




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pretzelkid* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...My question is would I be able to pull in WGN if I changed the 7084 setup with something like an XG91 and 7084 combined into a CM7777 mounted on the top of the tower. I see from some of the documents posted here that the front-back ratio of the XG91 and the CM4228 aren't all that different so if I can't get WGN with the CM4228 I currently have (even though it's about 10' lower on the tower) mating an XG91 with my 7084 won't be that different...



I also have a similar situation only my co-channel to the rear is closer but low power analog. My desired digital is also about 70 miles. What I initially discovered was putting the antenna much lower (behind the house) blocked the analog sufficiently to secure the digital 24/7. But of course at the cost of other distant digitals. Turns out my co-channels are 190 degrees apart so going a few degrees off the forward direction nulled the rear analog. I also found a spot in the attic which blocks the rear sufficiently I can use a 4228 to get the forward digital co-channel reliably, while keeping the rooftop array peaked for other channels.


Your two are 169 degrees apart (from zipcode 53115) so you might try a dual horizontal stack of 91XGs to narrow the beam (deepen nulls) might give you a better shot. With other benefits to boot. But the situation is especially difficult with both being digital and so close in axis. And looks like both are staying on 19.


----------



## pretzelkid




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *andy.s.lee* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What are your coordinates and antenna height. I can run an analysis to see how things look. Send them via PM if you prefer privacy.
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Andy



Hi Andy,

The coordinates i used on www.2150.com are:

latitude=42.582864

longitude=-088.647355

mag dev=-2.28

range=100 miles


The Madison station is NBC15 at 309.8 degrees, 53.44 miles with an

antenna height of 1269' and power at 56kw ERP/HAAT


The Chicago station is WGN-DT at 135.2 degrees, 71.01 miles with an antenna height of 1486' and power at 645kw ERP/HAAT


My own info is tower height of ~55' and I'm not sure of my elevation although I am in a woodsy area, large trees and a rising elevation southeast of me which is the direction of Chicago for me.


Thanks for the help Andy

John


----------



## pretzelkid




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenL* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I also have a similar situation only my co-channel to the rear is closer but low power analog. My desired digital is also about 70 miles. What I initially discovered was putting the antenna much lower (behind the house) blocked the analog sufficiently to secure the digital 24/7. But of course at the cost of other distant digitals. Turns out my co-channels are 190 degrees apart so going a few degrees off the forward direction nulled the rear analog. I also found a spot in the attic which blocks the rear sufficiently I can use a 4228 to get the forward digital co-channel reliably, while keeping the rooftop array peaked for other channels.
> 
> 
> Your two are 169 degrees apart (from zipcode 53115) so you might try a dual horizontal stack of 91XGs to narrow the beam (deepen nulls) might give you a better shot. With other benefits to boot. But the situation is especially difficult with both being digital and so close in axis. And looks like both are staying on 19.



I need the height to get the Chicago channels because of terrain to my southeast so using structure to deaden that rear channel is pretty much out. I didn't want to get too crazy with stacked arrays and such. Originally the Madison channel was slated to go to their current rf channel 15 so I was going to wait a couple of years and deal with it then but like you said they decided to stick on rf 19 now so I wanted to explore some options.


----------



## pretzelkid




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If this has anything to do with the Chicago Cubs, then let me just say this - don't get your hopes up too high.



LOL well sports are mostly the reason I'd like to get a hold of WGN but being a born and raised SOUTHSIDER the White Sox is the team I root for the most...and I'm not one of those cubby haters at all, if they win that's fine with me too but thank the Lord the Sox won it all the season before last!!!


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pretzelkid* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello All...
> 
> My situation is this, I have 2 stations nearly 180 degrees apart on the same rf channel (19). One is 70 miles away and is WGN in Chicago it's the one i want to receive, and the other is about 50 miles in the opposite direction in Madison Wisconsin which I really couldn't care less about. I have 2 antennas mounted on a 50' tower, a Winegard 7084 combo with rotor and pre-amp(not sure of the model#) and then a side mounted CM4228 with rotor and CM7777 amp mounted about 10' down from the top. I currently can receive Chicago stations like FOX and NBC from Chicago (pretty reliable most of the time) with either antenna but WGN is getting squashed by the Madison station in the opposite direction. I was able to pull in WGN once when the Madison channel went down with antenna problems and lowered power temporarily and on nights when tropo is strong. My question is would I be able to pull in WGN if I changed the 7084 setup with something like an XG91 and 7084 combined into a CM7777 mounted on the top of the tower. I see from some of the documents posted here that the front-back ratio of the XG91 and the CM4228 aren't all that different so if I can't get WGN with the CM4228 I currently have (even though it's about 10' lower on the tower) mating an XG91 with my 7084 won't be that different (although it will be about 15' higher at that point)
> 
> I know the only way to find out is to try it but does anyone have any expert opinions?...maybe a different antenna type to combine with my 7084?





Hi pretzelkid I am over in Walworth and I have the same problem as you do but WGN-9 kills WMTV-15 for me.


Heads up to be in 2009 Chicago WBBM-2 will be on CH 11 which will be the same as Madison WMSN-47 currently on DT 11 and will stay after 2009 also with WBBM going to 1.2 KW so WMSN will kill that for sure. In Madison WISC-3 (DT 50) and will stay on and Aurora WXFT-60 Currently on (DT 59) will move to DT 50 in 2009 I think Madison will kill this also. So in 2009 there will be 1 VHF station in each of our 4 markets with expect in Chicago will have 2. WLS-7 (DT-52) will move back to 7, WBBM-2 on DT-3 now and move to 11, Rockford WREX-13 (DT-54) will move back to 13, Madison WMSN-47 (DT-11) will stay on 11 and Milwaukee WMVS-10 (DT-8) will stay on 8.


-Willie


----------



## KenL




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pretzelkid* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...The Madison station is NBC15 at 309.8 degrees, 53.44 miles with an
> 
> antenna height of 1269' and power at 56kw ERP/HAAT
> 
> 
> The Chicago station is WGN-DT at 135.2 degrees, 71.01 miles with an antenna height of 1486' and power at 645kw ERP/HAAT...



That is really tough. Only 5 degrees off-axis. And the terrain is unfavorable as well? A digital warzone.










On the plus side 645kw ERP is rather generous for channel 19 and it seems to be aimed right at you.


One 91XG is more directional than a 4228 (even with the CM feedlines removed) but dual-horizontal-stacked X-director yagis provide the most practical enhanced directionality these days. However 5 degrees is just not much to work with. It's possible 4228 has better front-to-back (on channel 19) than a single 91XG. And unfortunately anything you use to block (improve screen etc.) becomes wind load.


I know you don't want to get too crazy but ...


----------



## pretzelkid




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WillieAntenna* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi pretzelkid I am over in Walworth and I have the same problem as you do but WGN-9 kills WMTV-15 for me.
> 
> 
> Heads up to be in 2009 Chicago WBBM-2 will be on CH 11 which will be the same as Madison WMSN-47 currently on DT 11 and will stay after 2009 also with WBBM going to 1.2 KW so WMSN will kill that for sure. In Madison WISC-3 (DT 50) and will stay on and Aurora WXFT-60 Currently on (DT 59) will move to DT 50 in 2009 I think Madison will kill this also. So in 2009 there will be 1 VHF station in each of our 4 markets with expect in Chicago will have 2. WLS-7 (DT-52) will move back to 7, WBBM-2 on DT-3 now and move to 11, Rockford WREX-13 (DT-54) will move back to 13, Madison WMSN-47 (DT-11) will stay on 11 and Milwaukee WMVS-10 (DT-8) will stay on 8.
> 
> 
> -Willie



Hi Willie,

That's kinda weird that WGN squashes your Madison channel...I guess a few degrees this way or that way really makes a difference. I'm not really concerned with receiving all the Chicago channels all the time I just used the 2 I do get reliably for reference, with WGN being similar in height (Sears Tower) and power with them. I can't get WLS at all but they are running only 156 kw compared to Fox at 690kw and NBC at 350kw. WBBM-2 out of Chicago is a lost cause as half the people 20 miles from the antenna can't get that channel...the Chicago OTA thread is full of sob stories...I get all the networks out of Milwaukee just fine. It just bugs me to not be able to get WGN.


----------



## pretzelkid




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenL* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I know you don't want to get too crazy but ...



Oh man I remember those uhf dishes when I was a kid growing up in Chicago and the bars had them so they could pull in blacked out Bears games out of the Rockford Illinois market 90 or so miles northeast...


----------



## andy.s.lee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pretzelkid* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The coordinates i used on www.2150.com are:
> 
> latitude=42.582864
> 
> longitude=-088.647355
> 
> mag dev=-2.28
> 
> range=100 miles
> 
> 
> The Madison station is NBC15 at 309.8 degrees, 53.44 miles with an
> 
> antenna height of 1269' and power at 56kw ERP/HAAT
> 
> 
> The Chicago station is WGN-DT at 135.2 degrees, 71.01 miles with an antenna height of 1486' and power at 645kw ERP/HAAT
> 
> 
> My own info is tower height of ~55' and I'm not sure of my elevation although I am in a woodsy area, large trees and a rising elevation southeast of me which is the direction of Chicago for me.



Here you go, John!


See attached radar plot for the results. Longer bars represent stronger signals. The predicted signal strength "in the air" at this location is listed under "Rx_dBm" in the table on the right (your antenna, amp, cable, splitters, receiver, etc. have not been factored in).



*My interpretation:*


- First, let me say that this location seems to be one of the worst places for co-channel interference that I have ever seen. Either the FCC planning tools are not detailed enough to notice this or you just happen to be at an unfortunate spot between bigger markets where channel re-use collisions are at their worst. The degree of co-channel interference might not be so bad that you'd necessarily notice it all the time, but I hardly ever see my tools generate so many warnings about potential interference.


- It's good that you have your antenna up high. Your location has a slightly lower elevation than surrounding areas and your distance to most of the transmitters means that you need to overcome some terrain and Earth curvature induced signal losses.


- Now, as for receiving WGN, I'm afraid your prospects look pretty bad. The analysis is showing that WMTV is reaching your antennas about 21 dB stronger than WGN. An ATSC tuner needs a minimum of about 15 dB of signal-to-interference ratio (SIR) in order to decode a channel, and in practice you'll want quite a bit more (i.e., 20-25 dB). That means that if you want to watch WGN, you'd need an antenna with a front-to-back ratio of something like 41-46 dB or better. The XG91 has a very good F/B ratio, but even then, you're only going to get about 30-35 dB of separation at best. I doubt you'll be able to find an antenna with enough selectivity to overcome this huge difference. The more practical solution, if possible, is to use a large RF obstruction (e.g., a building, mountains, etc.) behind the antenna to get the desired channel isolation.


Edit: Parabolic dishes have high gain, but their F/B ratio is not necessarily that high (I typically see ~20-30 dB). In this scenario, the F/B ratio matters more than the gain, so I have a feeling that even a dish won't solve the problem, although I must admit that I haven't looked at a whole lot of dish options.


- One interesting observation is that at 55', WMTV has a clear LOS path to your antenna while WGN does not. It is this propagation advantage that gives WMTV most of its 21 dB advantage over WGN. Hypothetically, if you were to lower your antenna to a level below 25', you would put WMTV at about the same disadvantage as WGN, at which point, WMTV would only be about 7 dB stronger than WGN (remember that WMTV is still closer, afterall). At this level, an antenna like the XG91 or DAT-75 might have enough F/B ratio to let you watch WGN. Unfortunately, as the antenna gets lower, all the signal levels drop, and at 25', the signals are starting to get hard to pick up. On paper, it looks like this should work, but it's definitely getting near the limits of what's possible. I actually DO NOT recommend trying this because: a) it's not guaranteed to work, b) it would take a lot of experimentation to get it working, and c) there probably wouldn't be much margin left in the system to help cope with bad weather, blowing trees, etc. On the other hand, if you've got time to kill, have a good signal level meter (to tune every last dB out of the system), and just gotta try it, then that's up to you.




I wish I had better news for you, but there's only so much that can be done when you're trying to dig up a channel from underneath another one.




Good luck!



Best regards,

Andy


----------



## decadude

i am very new to this and i like what the beginning part said i need to receive a signal from about 50 to 60 miles away



this may be more trouble than what its worth










thanks to all that reply


----------



## pretzelkid




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *andy.s.lee* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here you go, John!
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I had better news for you, but there's only so much that can be done when you're trying to dig up a channel from underneath another one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Andy



Thanks so much for doing that Andy, I always say knowledge is power so it looks like I'll just sit tight and hope one channel or the other wises up and reverts to their original analog channel. The station engineer at the Madison channel said that they had to stick on rf 19 (instead of going to their planned rf 15 in 2009) so that a low power station west of them (also on rf 15) wouldn't get squashed...oh well...Thanks again.

John


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *andy.s.lee* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> - Now, as for receiving WGN, I'm afraid your prospects look pretty bad. The analysis is showing that WMTV is reaching your antennas about 21 dB stronger than WGN. An ATSC tuner needs a minimum of about 15 dB of signal-to-interference ratio (SIR) in order to decode a channel, and in practice you'll want quite a bit more (i.e., 20-25 dB). That means that if you want to watch WGN, you'd need an antenna with a front-to-back ratio of something like 41-46 dB or better. The XG91 has a very good F/B ratio, but even then, you're only going to get about 30-35 dB of separation at best. I doubt you'll be able to find an antenna with enough selectivity to overcome this huge difference.



There's one technique that may get what you want for WGN; stagger stacking. This will work because the two stations that you want are 174.6 degrees apart, very close to opposite directions.


Take two identical antennas such as the 91XG. Mount them one above the other, but offset by 1/4 wavelength (5 7/8"), and then use an extra 1/4 electrical wavelength of RG6 (4 7/8") to match the phase from the front of the antenna. Signals from the rear of the antenna will be out of phase. The antenna that is mounted closer to Chicago should have the extra coax length before the combiner. This will add almost 20 db to the F/B ratio of the 91XG on channel 19. 20 db more F/B is what Mr. Lee's calculations suggest is necessary.


Here's a reference with a picture: http://www.anarc.org/wtfda/stagger.pdf see page 3.


When you do this is is advised to re-drill both antenna booms, one back half the distance, and one forward half, but in a location that misses the elements on both antennas. This is designed to balance the windload as much as possible.


----------



## KenL




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There's one technique that may get what you want for WGN; stagger stacking...



Such a clean solution it's nearly irresistible.










And here is a source for (91XG equivalent) Jaycars, delivered (a pair) for less than the price of a single 91XG, so *pretzelkid* should have no excuse not to try this one.










Wonder if stagger stacking would null WMTV to the point that even a (leaky) channel 19 jointenna might be used to inject WGN back into the 7777 along side whatever the 4228 is rotated toward at any time? That of course would kill WMTV for (any) viewing.


(otherwise it would mean another preamp and run of coax to the house which may be preferable)


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenL* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Such a clean solution it's nearly irresistible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here is a source for (91XG equivalent) Jaycars, delivered (a pair) for less than the price of a single 91XG, so *pretzelkid* should have no excuse not to try this one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wonder if stagger stacking would null WMTV to the point that even a (leaky) channel 19 jointenna might be used to inject WGN back into the 7777 along side whatever the 4228 is rotated toward at any time? That of course would kill WMTV for (any) viewing.
> 
> 
> (otherwise it would mean another preamp and run of coax to the house which may be preferable)



A pair of these Winegard PR9032's would be even cheaper.

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/pr9032.htm 


I don't think that a Jointenna has enought rejection to properly couple the WGN antenna to a second rotatable.


----------



## pretzelkid




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There's one technique that may get what you want for WGN; stagger stacking.



That's pretty interesting stuff and I'd be lying if I said my curiosity wasn't tweaked. Andy mentioned possibly lowering the antenna to 25' to get out of LOS to the Madison channel and my roof peak is just about 30' down from the top of the tower...hmmmm... I do have a 5' tripod somewhere in the garage...it would be easier for me to experiment on the roof top first...I'm not a tower climber anyway...with all the posts about 2 for the price of one antennas I'll have to ponder this a while....


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pretzelkid* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi Willie,
> 
> That's kinda weird that WGN squashes your Madison channel...I guess a few degrees this way or that way really makes a difference. I'm not really concerned with receiving all the Chicago channels all the time I just used the 2 I do get reliably for reference, with WGN being similar in height (Sears Tower) and power with them. I can't get WLS at all but they are running only 156 kw compared to Fox at 690kw and NBC at 350kw. WBBM-2 out of Chicago is a lost cause as half the people 20 miles from the antenna can't get that channel...the Chicago OTA thread is full of sob stories...I get all the networks out of Milwaukee just fine. It just bugs me to not be able to get WGN.




Not really werid it because I have my CM 4228 w/CM 7777 indoor in second floor 15-20 ft from ground with clear view to the south So I get the best LOS to Chicago and Rockford and I do get Madison 3, 21 & 27 but can't get 15 & 57. I can't get Fox-39 yet until they boot up to 1 MW anytime in next few weeks. Andy is right if you lower the 4228 another 20ft you might get out of Madison LOS. I do have a homemade DB-2 w/CM 7777 and I am able to lock on to Chicago station major station expect PBS. And last night I was building a CH 19 folded dipole antenna and behold I not only I got 9 but also 5, 32 & 50.


-Willie


----------



## KenL




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A pair of these Winegard PR9032's would be even cheaper.
> 
> http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/pr9032.htm ...



Actually with the current exchange rate and bulk discount for 2, the Jarcars are only $36 each. With the cheap airmail from down under, it should be about the same as those Winegards.


I'd rather the 91XG equivalents, since the 9032s have unremarkable gain on 19, as well as less front-to-back, compared to the Extreme Gain X-director yagis. For stagger stacking, I'm not sure how the front-to-back would play out between those two pairs.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...I don't think that a Jointenna has enough rejection to properly couple the WGN antenna to a second rotatable.



Probably not. Jointenna likely strikes out, both for lack of rejection and lack of shielding.


----------



## KenL




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pretzelkid* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That's pretty interesting stuff and I'd be lying if I said my curiosity wasn't tweaked. Andy mentioned possibly lowering the antenna to 25' to get out of LOS to the Madison channel and my roof peak is just about 30' down from the top of the tower...hmmmm... I do have a 5' tripod somewhere in the garage...it would be easier for me to experiment on the roof top first...I'm not a tower climber anyway...with all the posts about 2 for the price of one antennas I'll have to ponder this a while....



Now that's what we want to hear.










Go for it!


(little to lose in trying and WGN in the balance)


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KenL* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Actually with the current exchange rate and bulk discount for 2, the Jarcars are only $36 each. With the cheap airmail from down under, it should be about the same as those Winegards.
> 
> 
> I'd rather the 91XG equivalents, since the 9032s have unremarkable gain on 19, as well as less front-to-back, compared to the Extreme Gain X-director yagis. For stagger stacking, I'm not sure how the front-to-back would play out between those two pairs.Probably not. Jointenna likely strikes out, both for lack of rejection and lack of shielding.



At $36 USD each, I agree; go with Jarcar. The higher F/B ratio will help.


----------



## Miriamhill

Hi. I'm a reporter for The Philadelphia Inquirer, and I'm writing about people who buy antennas to get better HD TV reception. If you are one of these people, and you live in the Philadelphia, South Jersey or Delaware area, I'd love to interview you for my story. Please e-mail me or call 215-854-5520. Thanks. Miriam Hill


----------



## newsposter

newsman would be the perfect candidate for an interview..being so close to fox philly and not getting it


----------



## meeters

I bought a Terk HDTVS antenna which I'm going to mount permanently this weekend. I live in a single story ranch and plan to install the antenna in the attic over the garage. I temporarily set it up there last night to make sure it worked and after moving it around for a while I got very good pictures on all the HD channels in my area. My question is - If I install it inside the attic, should I ground antenna?


Thanks.


----------



## enier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Miriamhill* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi. I'm a reporter for The Philadelphia Inquirer, and I'm writing about people who buy antennas to get better HD TV reception. If you are one of these people, and you live in the Philadelphia, South Jersey or Delaware area, I'd love to interview you for my story. Please e-mail me or call 215-854-5520. Thanks. Miriam Hill



Very interesting... you might have better response in the Philadelphia-OTA thread

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=620626


----------



## Intheswamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *meeters* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I bought a Terk HDTVS......My question is - If I install it inside the attic, should I ground antenna?
> 
> 
> Thanks.



From everything I've read it appears grounding isn't required in the attic.


Ed


----------



## wu-infinite

I finally found a small antenna that works!

anybody else have this antenna?










I bought this Philips antenna at walmart.com for under 50 bucks and I was amazed in the performance, I getting about 24 OTA channels, I don't get all my network channels, but I'm amazed that I'm picking up channels that according to antennaweb.org should be around 60 miles from my location. I finally got to watch some of my favorite shows in hd, and the picture quality is better than the hd channels I get from dish, I know they don't broadcast in true hd. the antenna is not even a foot high and maybe 6" wide. it was definetly a great buy


----------



## Zman2342




wu-infinite said:


> I finally found a small antenna that works!
> 
> anybody else have this antenna?
> 
> 
> I bought this Philips antenna at for under 50 bucks and I was amazed in the performance, I getting about 24 OTA channels, I don't get all my network channels, but I'm amazed that I'm picking up channels that according to should be around 60 miles from my location. I finally got to watch some of my favorite shows in hd, and the picture quality is better than the hd channels I get from dish, I know they don't broadcast in true hd. the antenna is not even a foot high and maybe 6" wide. it was definetly a great buy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey wu-infinite,
> 
> 
> Did you use this antenna outdoor or indoor? Did you get low Freq. VHF with it or not. Looking for this solution if so. Thanks


----------



## dxernut




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ken H* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Please post your experiences with antennas, preamps, all related equipment, and installation experiences. Indoor & outdoor. To include mounting, cabling, connectors, rotors, etc.
> 
> 
> - Be specific; brands, models, sources, prices, etc.
> 
> 
> - What works, what doesn't, and why?
> 
> 
> - Tricks of the trade, and unique solutions.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for your participation. AVS is only as good as it's members, and our members are the best.



I have been up on my roof many times,more than I could count. Today we had excellant weather conditions extream fog 93% humidity 43 degrees at 9 am near Pittsburgh Pa 3/27/07. I decided to fine tune my 91XG Antenna again,this time I took a TV up there with me to moniter live what was happening. I set up the antenna strength display , and began experimenting with height and tilt. It's mounted on the chimney towards the rear of the house.I hand turned just about 1/4 of an inch at a time back and forth .Super sensative adjustment. Finally removed the mast out of it's rotor holder mount and held the antenna at a different location about 9" behind the chimney and my signal came in at 5 bars steady .It is now 1pm and the sun is out good, so conditions are not as good as the mornings were.To achive 5 bars at this time is good. The NEW location of the antenna will be physically impossibly to keep held by hand, so I tried turning the rotor assembly half turn, which helps compansate for the 9" inches . It made a WORLD of difference now I have 5 bars daytime viewing nighttime should at least gain me 2 more bars. Point of the story is I would have never achieved this If I didn't take up a live tv to the roof. I should mention that the channel is 62.5 miles away all the locals come in better also. So don't just believe what the compass says, experiment with different locations on the roof and if at all possible take up a live tv with you.


----------



## wu-infinite




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Zman2342* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Hey wu-infinite,
> 
> 
> Did you use this antenna outdoor or indoor? Did you get low Freq. VHF with it or not. Looking for this solution if so. Thanks



it is a UHF antenna, does not receive VHF it has an 18db gain. there is another model MANT950 that does receive both, I think circuit city.com has it.

I installed it on my roof, I did not use a mast, just screwed the plate to the top of the roof, and by the way I have giant pine trees all around my house! I took the picture below to show my instal, sorry for the pine needles( by the way look at the size of the pine cone compared to the size of the antenna, you can see is not very large)


----------



## tnichols

I just bought an amplified Terrestrial Digital Lacrosse antenna. I put it up and used a compass to generally aim it at the main TV tower in my area (West of Seattle, WA). I immediately can get 50-65% signal on all the channels. Interestingly the 65% signal is on a tower 90 degrees off of where I aimed the antenna! I still need to go up and fine tune the aiming of the antenna with the signal meter going.


There are two towers that I hope to get signals from. Both are about 35 miles away, and they are about 90 degrees apart from each other at my location.


Does anyone know how the tilt is supposed to be oriented on the Lacrosse? Every picture I've seen of the LaCrosse has it tilted back at about a 30-45 degree angle. It would make more sense to me to aim the face directly at a tower, rather than up into the sky. The documentation on the antenna is incredibly sparse.


----------



## kniles

I am using a DB-8 at 25' with a 7777 pre-amp, finely tunned to pick up ABC 63 miles away. I receive a 60-72% signal on my HR10-250. About 5% of the time I have drop outs on windy days. It does work good at night and early morn. but fall off in the day time. ABC HD is new to my area and I suspect ABC is not up to full power. The bottom line is that it is very close to being reliable, but falls a little short for recording HD programming. *My question is could I make this 5% a little more stable by adding one more pre-amp, or is there a easy fix to bust the signal a little bit.*


----------



## sfeitler

Hi, I was pointed to this forum by my local OTA group. I have a 10' mast and a RadioShack VU-190 I'd like to install in my backyard. I've checked it out without really installing the mast (husband held the mast up with the antenna on it), and I get a good signal anywhere between 6 and 10 feet above ground level. All I need now is ideas about how to secure the mast.


The location I'm looking at is about 15' away from the house. I have raised gardens; the first level is about 2' high with a brick retaining wall in front of it, and the next level is perhaps 6 inches higher than the first. I'm thinking of digging the dirt out right behind that first retaining wall, and sinking the mast in a foot or two. But I'd sort of like to avoid using concrete, or if I have to use concrete, I'd like to be able to take the mast out easily (so maybe a plastic pipe inside concrete?). I'm hoping the retaining wall will provide some support, but I'm guessing I have to use guy wires or something like that as well. There is a wooden fence perhaps 6 feet behind the proposed mast location, and another one perhaps 6 feet to the right. But probably I shouldn't rely upon wooden fences to hold any sort of load.


Has anyone done an installation like this? Any suggestions?


-Sarah in Colorado


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kniles* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am using a DB-8 at 25' with a 7777 pre-amp, finely tunned to pick up ABC 63 miles away. I receive a 60-72% signal on my HR10-250. About 5% of the time I have drop outs on windy days. It does work good at night and early morn. but fall off in the day time. ABC HD is new to my area and I suspect ABC is not up to full power. The bottom line is that it is very close to being reliable, but falls a little short for recording HD programming. *My question is could I make this 5% a little more stable by adding one more pre-amp, or is there a easy fix to bust the signal a little bit.*



A second preamp is apt to make things worse. In some cases you can get better results with a lower gain preamp designed for better overload resistance. Without knowing your exact location it's hard to predict if your 7777 is overloaded or not. The other two things that might help are antenna height and/or antenna gain.


----------



## Intheswamp

That's a pretty big antenna you've got. I went back and read some of your other posts in other threads


You mentioned mounting the antenna away from your house and possibly burying the cable...you need to acquire some coax that is stated as being for underground burial.


Burying the mast a foot deep definitely isn't going to do the trick. The 10' mast and antenna would be too top-heavy to stand up reliably...throw a breeze at it and there will definitely be trouble. Also, the soil in the raised bed is probably much looser than that of regular yard dirt.


Using concrete for a foot deep hole isn't good either. I would think a minimum of a 2.5-3 foot deep hole with the pipe cemented in would be good. Your idea of embedding a short (larger diameter) pipe in the concrete to slide the mast into is a good one. I would recommend, though, a piece of 1 1/4" - 1 1/2" galvanized water pipe (slide this piece into the short piece embedded in the cement) as the ground contact portion of the mast...the thin-walled mast material really won't last that long in the ground and would probably snap off at ground level when the first moderate wind started swaying it. I've got a 16-gourd wooden purple martin rack built using galvanzied pipe for the pole...the base is concreted into a 3' post hole...it has survived through a few near-misses from some hurricanes.







A posthole digger and a bag of quickcrete would do the job. You could use an 8' piece of galvanized pipe and attach your mast to it via u-bolts....one bolt high and one bolt low, 3'-4' apart.


If your wooden fence would hold up some potted hanging plants it should hold up an antenna. You could use some eve mounts (radio shack) and mount them onto one of the upright 4"x4" posts...use one at top and one about 3' toward the bottom. That should hold your antenna. As you mentioned in another message, your neighbors might squawk at the idea of a big ol' antenna in the neighborhood and you really do want to be friends with your neighbors. Being in your backyard and no higher than what it will be, I think the only one to be concerned with would be the one on the other side of the fence where the antenna might be mounted. You might want to chat with them about it. Good neighbors are an asset.










Do not mount this antenna to the chimney of your hotwater heater, ventpipe for the plumbing, etc., or your regular chimney....I would think it would wreck any of these.


Have you checked your attic yet to see if there is enough room up there to mount it? With the good reception that you reported by just walking the antenna around in the yard the attic would be a very good spot (if your roof isn't metal !)...it would be weatherproofed and all!


Ed



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sfeitler* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi, I was pointed to this forum by my local OTA group. I have a 10' mast and a RadioShack VU-190 I'd like to install in my backyard. I've checked it out without really installing the mast (husband held the mast up with the antenna on it), and I get a good signal anywhere between 6 and 10 feet above ground level. All I need now is ideas about how to secure the mast.
> 
> 
> The location I'm looking at is about 15' away from the house. I have raised gardens; the first level is about 2' high with a brick retaining wall in front of it, and the next level is perhaps 6 inches higher than the first. I'm thinking of digging the dirt out right behind that first retaining wall, and sinking the mast in a foot or two. But I'd sort of like to avoid using concrete, or if I have to use concrete, I'd like to be able to take the mast out easily (so maybe a plastic pipe inside concrete?). I'm hoping the retaining wall will provide some support, but I'm guessing I have to use guy wires or something like that as well. There is a wooden fence perhaps 6 feet behind the proposed mast location, and another one perhaps 6 feet to the right. But probably I shouldn't rely upon wooden fences to hold any sort of load.
> 
> 
> Has anyone done an installation like this? Any suggestions?
> 
> 
> -Sarah in Colorado


----------



## sfeitler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> a more robust mounting arrangement is required for the vu190 because of windload and its size. try grabbing that antenna in the wind out of a rotor mount from the mast. requires two people otherwise you would kill yourself from the force of the antenna being pushed around by the wind. almost impossible to hold on to by yourself.
> 
> 
> a fence mount is not an option. in the ground is not that great either. the antenna would not perform to its potential that low.
> 
> 
> time to go back to the drawing board.
> 
> 
> maybe side wall mount braced with emt conduit instead of guy wires?



If the only concern with the ground mount is the antenna performance, I'm ok with that. I had a UHF-only Winegard antenna mounted on the roof at my old house 2 miles away (we just moved), and it wasn't doing as well as this one does on the ground. As far out from Denver's low-power towers as I am, getting numbers higher than the 70s is unlikely, no matter where I put it...


There are some good side-mount spots on one end of the house, but I'm lazy. If I'm getting "good enough" and it means I don't have to go on the roof, I'll take it. We haven't tried the attic, husband is concerned we'll break all the tabs off of the element brackets if we fold the antenna up again, and we have a 2.5x2.5 foot access hole into the attic, so we'd have to take the antenna apart. Not that we shouldn't try it, but that's why we haven't.


We have upgraded our plans to a 3' hole in the regular old ground, not the raised bed. It's against the retaining wall, and we'll pour concrete in there, and stick in a pvc pipe (or galvanized if we have to, but PVC on galvanized will squeak less). We'll put galvanized inside that pvc. Ed (intheswamp) mentioned putting the mast on the galvanized--is there a reason to do that, or just convenience? I had just thought we could get a length of galvanized that was long enough to put the antenna up 8 feet--so, an 11' length--and put the antenna directly on that.


-Sarah


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: Here's the Channel Master Off-Air Antenna Installation Guide:
http://www.pctinternational.com/chan...stallation.pdf


----------



## holl_ands

A quote from the ATSC DVD RECORDER Forum:


"Initially the Philips (3505) wouldn't tune in FOX HD anyway, but today I came up with another ingenious idea to connect with plain old-fashioned speaker wire the large barb wire fence of my neighbors, through a signal amplifier, and into the Philips, and BINGO! I got FOX HD."


BARB WIRE---that's just too clever....

The fact that it's his NEIGHBOR'S fence.....PRICELESS...


----------



## Keenan

Barb wire?? Where does the guy live, and who's his neighbor?


----------



## nybbler

Just don't try it with an _electrified_ fence. At least not without a good high-pass filter .


----------



## vttom

Thought folks in this thread might get a kick out of this...


I recently built my own Log Periodic Dipole Array (LPDA) antenna. I found an online LPDA calculator and entered the frequency band from my lowest local HDTV channel, ch13 (WVNY-DT) to the highest, ch53 (WCAX-DT). It spit out the number of elements and all the dimensions.


I then proceeded to assemble it using some scrap wood for the "backbone", old aluminum curtain rods (cut to length using tin snips) as the elements, and picture-hanging wire (a cheap and readily-available uninsulated conductor). For the downlead, I simply chopped one end off a short piece of RG6 patch cable and attached it to the screws at the feedpoint.


I located the antenna under the roof of my garage (this ain't exactly a weather-tight antenna), about 15ft off the ground.


I also added an inline VHF/UHF amplifier from RadioShack to drive the ~40ft. of RG6 cable to my first tuner on one leg of a splitter, and then another ~40ft. of RG6 on the other leg of the splitter to my second tuner.


The performance is excellent. I get all the local HDTV stations with very high signal strength. Although it does help that I have LoS to all of the local HD transmitters, which are co-located atop the same mountain (Mt. Mansfield) 20-30 miles away.


Picture from the back -> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...chmentid=78206 

Close up -> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...chmentid=78207


----------



## sfeitler

Beautiful! How long is your board? How many elements?


-Sarah



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vttom* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thought folks in this thread might get a kick out of this...
> 
> 
> I recently built my own Log Periodic Dipole Array (LPDA) antenna. I found an online LPDA calculator and entered the frequency band from my lowest local HDTV channel, ch13 (WVNY-DT) to the highest, ch53 (WCAX-DT). It spit out the number of elements and all the dimensions.
> 
> 
> I then proceeded to assemble it using some scrap wood for the "backbone", old aluminum curtain rods (cut to length using tin snips) as the elements, and picture-hanging wire (a cheap and readily-available uninsulated conductor). For the downlead, I simply chopped one end off a short piece of RG6 patch cable and attached it to the screws at the feedpoint.
> 
> 
> I located the antenna under the roof of my garage (this ain't exactly a weather-tight antenna), about 15ft off the ground.
> 
> 
> I also added an inline VHF/UHF amplifier from RadioShack to drive the ~40ft. of RG6 cable to my first tuner on one leg of a splitter, and then another ~40ft. of RG6 on the other leg of the splitter to my second tuner.
> 
> 
> The performance is excellent. I get all the local HDTV stations with very high signal strength. Although it does help that I have LoS to all of the local HD transmitters, which are co-located atop the same mountain (Mt. Mansfield) 20-30 miles away.
> 
> 
> Picture from the back -> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...chmentid=78206
> 
> Close up -> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...chmentid=78207


----------



## vttom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sfeitler* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Beautiful! How long is your board? How many elements?



It's about 4ft long and has 22 elements (11 dipoles).


----------



## videobruce

Unless I missed it here, there was a discussion elsewhere about this.

Eagle Aspen came out with a new rotor design last Fall using a single cable;
http://eagleaspen.com/products/products_1.php?id=90 


I contacted the company since my first concern was signal loss through the control box and the rotor itself. Eagle Aspens designs their products even though they aren't made here and specs the loss to be less than 2db for both devices with 1.5 db being the average. Thought I would use separate feeds (as before) since any 2 conductor wire would be fine for the rotor control (doesn't have to be coax). All would be need to be done is to solder that line to a short RG59 length with a F fitting on each end to connect to the rotor and the controller to eliminate the loss.


The tech I spoke to also mentioned that the same guy who designed the Channel Master 9537 remote controlled controller designed this controller and the Pioneer cable box remote code will work on this also (as it does for the 9537).

There is a limiting factor regarding current available for a preamp through the control box (using a single cable) which is another reason to use separate feeds.


I have used the Channel Master designed rotor system for years exclusively, but because of the constant back and forth 'tweaking' for correct position, it's impossible to keep both in 'sync' even with the solid state 9537 controller (which I hoped would help, but it didn't).

I plan on replacing it with this from Solid Signal;
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=ROTR100 


(BTW, I have seen this as high as $140 elsewhere.)



Also, the link for the Wade UHF parabolics is dead;


4' version: http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/uhfparabolic.pdf 


There is also a 6', a 8' and a dual 8 footer, but at 70, 100 & 155 lbs, those might be a slight chalenge to erect.


----------



## videobruce

It's not a' natual' blonde.


----------



## videobruce

I did a little research, though I still can't verify dealer cost, but I believe it would be safe to say that the Kathrein UHF antenna that is listed above those Wade parabolics' should be taken off the list. Why?:

*$767* plus shipping (and that is for a *single* channel).


The Wade antennas?
*List* price starts at $465 plus $140 shipping (not verified) for the 4 footer and $3630 plus $260 shipping for the dual 8 footer. The six footer is $1,000 MORE than the four footer. I am guessing dealer cost for the 4' model is around $300 plus shipping.


I don't think to many forum members will be getting many of these...................


----------



## cpcat

Not to mention that largest dual parabolic weighs in at 155 lbs.


----------



## videobruce

If you can afford the $3500, the weight of that array is of little concern.


----------



## carltonrice

Given that when stations switch over to their final destination frequencies in 2009 those frequencies probably be in the channel 7 through channel 51 range, why haven't there been more antennas manufactured specifically for the high VHF/low UHF frequencies? Is anyone making something for them?


----------



## videobruce

You are best off with a separate VHF high band & a separate UHF antenna. Combo antennas have *always* been a compromise.

Is your market reverting back to VHF (actual frequencies, not those drumed up misleading 7.1 when it is actually 38.1 channel numbers) after 2009?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you can afford the $3500, the weight of that array is of little concern.



I can afford it. Not that I'm rich mind you.


The weight is definitely a concern as is the windload and torque load.


A heavy-duty rotator mounted inside of at least a medium duty guyed tower would be mandatory. It's this part that's prohibitive for me.


----------



## videobruce

I was making a funny about the weight.


The difference between their smallest two models is 3x the weight (70 vs 25 lbs) and 3x the price ($1400 vs $460).

The *gain* difference is only 2 db.


I can't imagine why they even try to sell the 6 footer.


----------



## Cornhustler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *carltonrice* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Given that when stations switch over to their final destination frequencies in 2009 those frequencies probably be in the channel 7 through channel 51 range, why haven't there been more antennas manufactured specifically for the high VHF/low UHF frequencies? Is anyone making something for them?



Good question. You mean like the bottom antenna in the attached photo?


I've been waiting for CM, Winegard or Antennacraft to introduce something like this. I would think there would be a large market for something like this which will allow viewers to maintain reception seamlessly for stations going back to their high band vhf frequencies or for those remaining on uhf after Feb. 2009. Seems silly to put up a monster designed to receive low band when most areas won't have any stations using channels 2-6.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...The difference between their smallest two models is 3x the weight (70 vs 25 lbs) and 3x the price ($1400 vs $460).
> 
> The *gain* difference is only 2 db.
> 
> 
> I can't imagine why they even try to sell the 6 footer.



They aren't trying very hard to sell them. You won't see them advertised during the Super Bowl.


UHF analog TV broadcasters have to assure that their reception antenna develops a signal level of 0dBmV to qualify for "must carry" status, and digital stations must develop -12dBmV. Distant and low powered transmitters sometimes have trouble meeting that standard, so paying another thousand dollars for 2dB of gain is often a better value than increasing the tower heght and is a relatively small expenditure in light of the value of the market accessed.


----------



## cpcat

I could go for the added gain in my situation but my current installation is maxed out I'm afraid.


I tried raising my mast by only a few feet and just the other night I was clobbered for it. About 7-8 ft above roof line is about all it will take.


I'm probably averaging around 18dbi for wideband UHF.


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I can afford it. Not that I'm rich mind you.
> 
> 
> The weight is definitely a concern as is the windload and torque load.



Satellite dishes can be had more cheaply and lighter. Put a bowtie instead of an LNB at the feed point (which might require some custom hardware) and you should have the equivalent of the old Channel Master parabolics, unless I'm missing some subtlety. I'm assuming mesh designed for 10Ghz should be effectively solid at 300-800 Mhz.


----------



## willscary

Alright...long time AVS member here. Also a long time HDTV forum lurker. I have always had Charter cable and a year ago added the HD package. Unfortunately, after being a happy customer for 18 years, they are going to raise my subscription price by about 40% in a month. When I found out, I called desperately for DSL to replace the cable internet. I received an email the other day that a new hub close to my home will be up and running in a few weeks!


That means a dish and DSL and goodbye Charter! Instead of paying the $5/ month for local stations in standard def, I decided to put up an antenna.


Antennaweb says I can not get my locals in HD because I live on the wrong side of a large hill and the towers are all 37 miles away from me. Outdoor mounting is frowned on by my wife and I would be afraid of lightning and wind anyways because the north and west horizons are viewable to about 15 miles from my bedroom windows. The east, however, is blocked by the hill.


I took a flier and mounted an Antennacraft MXU59 in my attic. Space is tight in the attic. The bottom of the back yagi is buried about an inch into the isulation. The top of the back yagi hits the rafters. The nose of the antenna is resting on a very small nail protruding through the exterior sheathing into the attic. the antenna was aimed at 92 degrees. All of my digital stations are between 88 degrees and 96 degrees and are all 37-38 miles away. The nose of the antenna sits 26' above ground level.


SUCCESS! All stations come in crystal clear! First try even! BUT...I have a question. I have success running the signal through 25' of quad shielded 18ga solid copper RG6 to a brand new Samsung 19" LCD TV in my bedroom. My signal strength on the TV is, at worst, 6-7 bars on the PBS station and is 8-10 bars on all other stations. I want to split this signal either 3 or 4 ways and run each of the splits to other TVs in the house. From the antenna, I have 25' of cable to the 3 or 4 way splitter. From there, one will go nearly directly into the 19" bedroom LCD. The other 3 will each travel 50' through the same quad shield 18ga. solid copper RG6 to 2 or 3 other TVs. My question is this...do I get the Winegard Chromestar AP-8275 and mount it next to the antena? Will this get me full bars at all locations after the split and cable runs? I am considering the 8275 because the UHF antenna does a fairly decent job picking up the local channel 11. In 2009, I am finding that channel 11 will move its HDTV back to this frequency and I thought I may need a VHF/UHF amp to receive it well on the Antennacraft UHF antenna. (I don't want to get an amp that filters VHF, and I am not sure that simply passing it will allow enough signal from an antenna that is no listed as VHF.


Any suggestions on the amp situation?


Thanks,


Bill


----------



## vttom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *willscary* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That means a dish and DSL and goodbye Charter! Instead of paying the $5/ month for local stations in standard def, I decided to put up an antenna.



I don't have an answer for your primary question about the amplifier, but I did want to clarify one thing for you... If you subscribe to DishNetwork and get something like the ViP622, which is an HD PVR with ATSC tuner, you still need to subscribe to the locals package in order for the programming info for the OTA HD locals to show up in your EPG. Without the locals package, you can still tune in the OTA locals, you just don't see any programming info in the guide, which makes DVRing programs difficult.


----------



## carltonrice




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cornhustler* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Good question. You mean like the bottom antenna in the attached photo?



Yep... Who makes this one and what model is it?


----------



## Tobias Ziegler

Here's a general question, folks. Has anyone seen mention of commercially produced antennas being redesigned in anticipation of UHF channel 51 being the new highest channel number? Since any multiple-channel antenna's design is a compromise, I'd think that the optimum dimensions for channels 14-51 would be different than those for channels 14-69.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Has anyone seen mention of commercially produced antennas being redesigned in anticipation of UHF channel 51 being the new highest channel number?



I've been wondering the same thing. Have not seen anything advertised yet, though. Many are made for the world market, not just the US, so there may already be something in production that will work well here in the US.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Since any multiple-channel antenna's design is a compromise, I'd think that the optimum dimensions for channels 14-51 would be different than those for channels 14-69.



This is true. Generally a Yagi is tuned to near the highest frequency it needs to receive, as sensitivity drops of much faster above the tuned frequency than below. The multiple bow-tie style seems to work very well already in the low to mid UHF range.


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here's a general question, folks. Has anyone seen mention of commercially produced antennas being redesigned in anticipation of UHF channel 51 being the new highest channel number? Since any multiple-channel antenna's design is a compromise, I'd think that the optimum dimensions for channels 14-51 would be different than those for channels 14-69.




I think it won't happen until after late 2008 or in 2009 with FCC is trying to ( not madate ) push every one off 2-6 to VHF-high or UHF, then the commercially made antenna could make a 7-51 ch antenna. That would cut down on the wide VHF elements.


Channel Master is making a 2 bay antenna ( small Directional antenna) now that is good for VHF-high and UHF, have not seen the prices on it, the size is just half of the 4-bay 4221.


----------



## Cornhustler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *carltonrice* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yep... Who makes this one and what model is it?



This was mounted on a business that installs commercial and residential antennae. I called them and they told me they had them specially made to receive their local stations so it doesn't have a model name or number. It is an example of the type of antenna they should be selling to the general public. I don't remember which company made them but I want to say Antennacraft.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




WillieAntenna said:


> I think it won't happen until after late 2008 or in 2009
> 
> 
> I have to wonder if they aren't in the middle of a surge in antenna sales compared to the last 30 years or so, as people try for digital reception to get HD.
> 
> 
> I'd just as soon they'd bring new designs to market now, so I could be buying something for the long term. If I'm not going to be trying to pull in anything above ch 51, I'd rather have my UHF antenna tuned for mid/high 40s. If I had a CM 4221, I guess I could do something to lengthen the bowtie elements, but it seems that proper retuning would also involve increasing the distance between the plane of the bowties and the plane of the reflector; and maybe the distance between the bowties themselves.
> 
> 
> While I'm typing, can someone answer something else for me? I seem to remember that when the HDTV format was being evaluated back in the early/mid 90s that the plan was to move everything off of VHF, and return those bands to the FCC for other uses. Now that I'm getting around to trying for over the air reception, I'm seeing that I'm going to need a high band VHF antenna. Is my memory faulty, or was there some kind of change made along the way that nobody consulted me on ?


----------



## storm.exe

I could use some advice on possible antenna requirements.


Zip code is 77382, second story apartment with no buildings "behind" me in the direction of the towers (~44 miles)


These are the stations that I am interested in picking up:

digital - violet - vhf

KTXH-DT 20.1 MNT HOUSTON TX 178° 44.2 19

KHCW-DT 39.1 CW HOUSTON TX 177° 43.8 38

KUHT-DT 8.1 PBS HOUSTON TX 177° 43.4 9

KHOU-DT 11.1 CBS HOUSTON TX 177° 44.3 31

violet - uhf KTRK-DT 13.1 ABC HOUSTON TX 177° 43.4 32

violet - uhf KPRC-DT 2.1 NBC HOUSTON TX 177° 43.8 35


I currently have one of those $15 philips unamplified indoor loop/rabbit ear antennas and I am able to receive 30% signal strength on 11.1(CBS) and 13.1(ABC), 70% on 20.1. I cannot get my TV to admit to seeing 2.1 or 8.1 at all.


Since they are all Violet - UHF antennaweb says that I need a large directionaloutdoor preamplified antenna. Is that really the case if I can get these numbers with just this crappy little loop? Since it is an apartment roof-top mounting is out of the question, but I could mount it outside on the balcony without an issue.


Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## holl_ands




Tobias Ziegler said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WillieAntenna* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think it won't happen until after late 2008 or in 2009
> 
> 
> I have to wonder if they aren't in the middle of a surge in antenna sales compared to the last 30 years or so, as people try for digital reception to get HD.
> 
> 
> I'd just as soon they'd bring new designs to market now, so I could be buying something for the long term. If I'm not going to be trying to pull in anything above ch 51, I'd rather have my UHF antenna tuned for mid/high 40s. If I had a CM 4221, I guess I could do something to lengthen the bowtie elements, but it seems that proper retuning would also involve increasing the distance between the plane of the bowties and the plane of the reflector; and maybe the distance between the bowties themselves.
> 
> 
> While I'm typing, can someone answer something else for me? I seem to remember that when the HDTV format was being evaluated back in the early/mid 90s that the plan was to move everything off of VHF, and return those bands to the FCC for other uses. Now that I'm getting around to trying for over the air reception, I'm seeing that I'm going to need a high band VHF antenna. Is my memory faulty, or was there some kind of change made along the way that nobody consulted me on ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently "they" didn't consult with everyone....
> 
> The lower VHF band was picked by 43 DTV stations....8 more than now:
> http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0001/t.1158.html
> 
> Probably saves some money to reuse antenna and high power feeds and maybe the high power amp.
> 
> But big savings are in a greatly reduced monthly electric bill---with extended range coverage.
> 
> 
> ====================================
> 
> I remember seeing a European manufacturer who offered a standard 4-Bay design, except the
> 
> bottommost wires were nearly twice as long.
> 
> Hence the lower half of the bottom Bay was "tuned" for extended low freq response.
> 
> I wouldn't cringe too much re VSWR and all that---cuz any antenna covering 2:1 in UHF band is already compromised.
> 
> 
> But it also compromised the VHF "design", cuz the reflector isn't big enough...and is too close.
> 
> 
> I would rather see some sort of VHF Yagi (even if only 2 or 3 elements) to reject multipath on the rear of the antenna.
Click to expand...


----------



## videobruce

Wow, if the below links are correct; 18 stations (though six are low power), 35 miles away, all in the same direction. An installers wet dream!;
http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/mapb...bel=Spring,+TX 
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/defaul...=Show+Stations 


BTW, your zip code isn't reconized by the US Census Bureau (first link) or by the NOAA data center;
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/seg/geomag/jsp/Declination.jsp 


Is your balcony facing south?


----------



## storm.exe




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> BTW, your zip code isn't reconized by the US Census Bureau (first link) or by the
> 
> NOAA data center
> 
> 
> Is your balcony facing south?



Yeah, it is on the south side of the building.


That is really strange about the zip code not being recognized..


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> cm4220 dbd gain
> *Ch7 -19
> 
> 13 -8*
> 
> 14 7.7
> 
> 21 6.8
> 
> 33 8.6
> 
> 42 8.1
> 
> 55 6.6
> 
> 68 8.3
> 
> 
> nothing special on vhf high band. maybe yellow and darkgreen outside.




Rick, I can get WMVS PBS Analog 10 DT-8 is 43 miles away, with Ant web set at antenna location and 2nd story with no height set in the option and it did not show WMVS but at 200-500 feet height it show in the red and I am able to lock it in. The antenna set up I have is the homemade DB-2 antenna and CM 7777 preamp. The antenna set up in 2nd floor apartment inside it about 2 ft off the floor. I just got my Sammy 260 last Friday and it can't pick up the DT 8 but my Polaroid can pick it up and lock it. But as soon I settle in my new place I will get my CM 4228 set back up and see what more I can get hoping to get some Chicago station back. As at my old place I was able to pick up analog 7,9,10 well with the 4228 and 7777 not picture perfect but watchable.


As you said before, there is so many varables to take in.


You won't know until you try it. As I like to try to build one or do something different to get better siginal, just much as you do trying different setup at your house, you won't know how it will turn out until you tried it.


Yes people laugh at my homemade antenna, but I get the last laugh because the the looks on thier faces







when they see the picture quality is good as or better than what they paid for thier oversize antenna.







"Priceless"



-Willie


----------



## videobruce

How high up?


----------



## storm.exe




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How high up?



Relative to the ground, only about 20 feet up.


Relative to sea-level, about 160 feet according to usgs.gov


Regarding the zip code, I guess 77381 can be used for a general reference of the area on those sites, but it is technically 77382.


Thanks in advance.


----------



## Jesse31

Storm.exe

Where on usgs.gov can I access elevation data?


----------



## videobruce

Try Google Earth.


----------



## Tim Lones

I just bought a Terk 44 clip on antenna to use with my Dish Network 622 HD receiver. I attempted to install it myself..bad move..With moving the Cabling around I lost my 129 Satellite signal..Had to have an installer re connect it. He connected the cables back and tried to hook the 44 up but it still doesnt work..(got my 129 back though)..My question is..Can this be made to work with a 1 receiver- 2-tuner-3 satellite system..I left the antenna on the dish. Took off the antenna cable inside..Doesnt seem to affect the Satellites so they are still ok..Thanks for any suggestions.


----------



## storm.exe

I was using: http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnispub...53820097795229 


I downloaded Google Earth and I prefer it, though.


----------



## SWHouston

storm.exe,


I have a VU-90XR (Rad Shack) mounted in my Attic. Good reception !

If you have access to it (attic) !?!


Have a good Day !


----------



## willscary

Well, I bought the AP-8275. I installed the amp and introduced a 4 output splitter into the path directly after the power module. Even though I went from a direct connection to the antenna to a connection through a 4 way splitter, my signal strength gained 1 to 2 bars on a 10 bar scale. I now have a solid 8 bars on PBS and 10 (with an occational momentary blip to 9 bars) on all other stations!


In the attic, on the back side of a hill, 37 miles away from all stations, I have acheived what is basically a 95% signal for all 7 local HD channels by using an Antennacraft MXU59 antenna and a Winegard AP-8275 preamp after a 4 way split. I am a very happy person right now!


Total cost:


Antenna: $44.29


Preamp: $55.20


Quad Shield cable 3 @ 25' + 1 @ 12' + 3 @ 3' and a 4 way splitter $72.10


----------



## dqtmg2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vttom* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you subscribe to DishNetwork and get something like the ViP622, which is an HD PVR with ATSC tuner, you still need to subscribe to the locals package in order for the programming info for the OTA HD locals to show up in your EPG. Without the locals package, you can still tune in the OTA locals, you just don't see any programming info in the guide, which makes DVRing programs difficult.



I was just about to do what you are talking about here. I do want to DVR OTA locals but do not want to pay DISH for them. When you say it is difficult, what exactly do you mean? Is it not possible at all, or just a much more manual process? Could I still set up their VIP622 to record OTA local shows at the same time every week outside of the guide? Also, will I be able to pause, rewind, etc. the local OTA channels without subscribing?


tim


----------



## Anthony R

Hello All:


I had posted a similar type of question in another thread, but thought it might be better put here:


My question: I need a short-term indoor antenna solution (08859 zip code), and I am looking to test out the Terk HDTVi or HDTVa over the next few days (I do also have a Phillips Silver Sensor on order, but it won't be arriving for a week or so). I think that the Terk HDTVi and HDTVa are the EXACT same antenna except for the additional add-on amplifier that comes with the HDTVa. Is this correct.are they otherwise the exact same antenna? Assuming this is so, then (rather then buy both) I would presume that I could just buy the HDTVa and test it out both with and without the amplifier added on. Which brings up the next question.would the HDTVa even work without the amp added on?


Any help on these questions would be appreciated.


----------



## vttom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Anthony R* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would presume that I could just buy the HDTVa and test it out both with and without the amplifier added on. Which brings up the next question.would the HDTVa even work without the amp added on?



I don't know for sure, because I don't own either Terk antenna, but you may find that the amplifier is integrated into the housing of the antenna. If so, you might be able to try it without powering the amplifier, but having it in-line but un-powered might actually reduce the signal more than if there were no amplifier at all.


So, to be safe, you might want to try them both.


Also, the Silver Sensor is a great antenna, but it has trouble in the VHF band, so it might work for you or it might not, depending on whether you have any station broadcasting in the VHF band, how close they are, at what power, etc.


----------



## willscary

Well, a new experiment. I bought a second MXU59. I pointed it northwest towards Wausau (my first antenna is pointed east towards Green Bay). Although I am pointing directly at the Green Bay stations from inside my attic, I live on the west side of a large hill, 37 miles from the Green Bay tower locations. The Wausau stations are about 60 miles away, but my view in that direction is clear.


Originally, after hooking up the MXU59 in the attic to a AP-8275 amp and then to a 4 way splitter, my signal strengths were superb. I decided I wanted to try to get Wausau and Wittenberg stations. I bought a second antenna and aimed it as close as I could towards Wittenberg. I am about 5 degrees north of where I want to be, and pointed about 19 degrees north of the Wausau stations.


Before the second antenna, the Wausau stations would come in after dark with about a 10% signal strength. Now, the Green Bay stations have lost about 20% of their signal (down to 70-80% on all but PBS, which dropped to 55-65%), but I picked up ALL the northern channels with a 70-100% signal!


These channels are redundant during prime time, but have different programming at other times. This includes sporting events. The Packers are in their home market in Green Bay, but there are times when the Wausau stations can carry the second game of a double header when Green Bay stations can not. There are times when different games are fed to the Wausau market. This is SOOOO cool!


----------



## rgharrin

How many of us have invested in a UHF antenna because

all the stations in Green Bay are UHF?


Wouldn't life be a lot simpler, if WLUK stayed on channel 51?


As consumers, don't we have anything to say about it?


Complaining to WLUK, gets no response.


Doesn't anyone represent us?


In Madison, Fox is going the other way, from 11 to 47.


I have a cm 4228. If you need the 4228 for UHF then you're too

far away for it to be valuable for VHF.

I pick up channel 51 (strong) but nothing from analog 11.


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rgharrin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How many of us have invested in a UHF antenna because
> 
> all the stations in Green Bay are UHF?
> 
> 
> Wouldn't life be a lot simpler, if WLUK stayed on channel 51?
> 
> 
> As consumers, don't we have anything to say about it?
> 
> 
> Complaining to WLUK, gets no response.
> 
> 
> Doesn't anyone represent us?
> 
> 
> In Madison, Fox is going the other way, from 11 to 47.
> 
> 
> I have a cm 4228. If you need the 4228 for UHF then you're too
> 
> far away for it to be valuable for VHF.
> 
> I pick up channel 51 (strong) but nothing from analog 11.




Madison Fox 47 (DT-11) will be staying on 11 after analog shutdown.


Where are you located at ? I currently have a homebuilt DB-2 2-bay antenna with Channel Master 7777 preamp and I get Madison 47 (DT-11) that is 60 miles away and I get Milwaukee PBS 10 ( DT-8 ) 43 miles away with no problem. I also have a 4228 but not have set it up yet. Channel Master has just came out with a 2-Bay antenna CM 4220 it a little brother to the 4221 4-bay.



-Willie


----------



## willscary

My MXU59 has no problems getting analog channel 11 clearly. For that matter, analog channels 9 and 7 out of Wausau are clear also. Analog 2 and 5 out of Green Bay come in, but they have interference lines (diagonal zig zags).


These antennas are UHF only, but do a good job on upper VHF. I purposely bought the AP-8275 because it amplifies both UHF and VHF. I am hoping that when ths switch comes, and 11 goes back to 11 (and 7 goes back to 7), I will still be able to pick them up cleanly in the digital format. With the success I have had, I am thinking positively that this will most likely work out.


Bill


----------



## willscary

Last night I changed one of the lengths of RG6. I had been running a 3 ft pc of RG6 from each antenna to the combiner, then another 3 ft pc to the amplifier head. I was getting wild changes on Green Bay channel 5 signal strength. It would go from 70 to 80% to 0 to 10%, then back to 70 to 80%. This only happened during the daytime yesterday.


I immediately thought of interference between antennas, so I unplugged the Wausau antenna and things settled down immediately and signal strength went up to 90% on channel 5.


I then replaced the 3' RG6 on the Wausau antenna with a 25' long RG6 still coiled up as it was originally packaged. The Wausau stations are now at 70-90% signal strength and the Green Bay stations are all up to 85-95% with no drops.


I hope these results help some of you.


----------



## rgharrin

Willie,

I am 70 mi from Wausau, Green Bay, and Madison. I'm probably lucky

I get anything. Madison is blocked by trees (many and tall). Wausau

last I checked put out weak signals in HD (56kW and 117kW).


I do have a clear shot at the horizon for Green Bay.

ABC, CBS, Fox, come in consistently. PBS can be iffy.

NBC is not dependable. I'm talking about HD out of GB.


ABC-HD does it right. Reception is always strong with there non-directional

1000 kW transmitter


Willscary do you get Wausau in HD from 60 miles?


----------



## lovebohn

willscary,


Are you just using a splitter to combine the two different antennas? I can see this causing a problem like you described above. Most of the time if your using two different antennas you need to use something like the jointenna's http://www.warrenelectronics.com/ant...Jointennas.htm I'm not a pro on this topic but with you signal strength bouncing around your receiver was getting mixed signals with the different stations. Combining two antennas will not boost the signal and will just cause problems like your seeing unless you have a very directional antenna. The jointenna's will block a set channel frequency to help stop this problem. I don't know why the longer cable helped with Wausau, I could see if your Green Bay stations with the addition of the amp was over powered and you added it to that antenna if may help. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Dave


----------



## lovebohn




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rgharrin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Willie,
> 
> I am 70 mi from Wausau, Green Bay, and Madison. I'm probably lucky
> 
> I get anything. Madison is blocked by trees (many and tall). Wausau
> 
> last I checked put out weak signals in HD (56kW and 117kW).
> 
> 
> I do have a clear shot at the horizon for Green Bay.
> 
> ABC, CBS, Fox, come in consistently. PBS can be iffy.
> 
> NBC is not dependable. I'm talking about HD out of GB.
> 
> 
> ABC-HD does it right. Reception is always strong with there non-directional
> 
> 1000 kW transmitter
> 
> 
> Willscary do you get Wausau in HD from 60 miles?




I have no problems with 7 or 9 from Wausau. 9 always has a stronger signal and will sit around 95-100% 24/7. Channel 7 is in the 70's most of the time and I live about 40 miles from the towers.


----------



## Anthony R

Hello all:


Does anyone know if it is possible to use a Silver Sensor (PHDTV1) antenna with a Channel Master 3041 pre-amp? The problem seems to be that the Silver Sensor has a coax output, whereas the 3041 has a twin-lead input. Is there an adapter (or some other connector available from some website) which would allow me to join the Sensor's coax output with the 3041's twin-lead input?


Any help on this would be appreciated.


----------



## willscary

I live on the southwest corner of New London, just out of the city limits. The Green Bay towers on Scray's Hill in Depere are 38 miles east of me, as are the towers in Suring (2 are at 88 degrees and the other 5 are at 96 degrees). The Wausau towers for channels 7, 9 and 20 are 60 miles northwest of me. The Fox 55 tower is in Wittenberg about 58 miles northwest of me (7, 9 and 20 are at 312 degrees and 55 is at 326 degrees).


I pointed the first antenna directly at NBC 26 (because it is weak) at 96 degrees and I was able to get a consistant 95-100% signal on 2, 5, 11, 26 and 32, 90% on 14 and 80% on 38. At night 7 and 9 would come in after dark on this antenna. It is in my attic with a high power AP-8275 preamp and all RG6 quad shield cable. The signal is then split FOUR ways.


I decided the other day that I would buy a second antenna and point it towards Wausau because 7 has different games on then CBS 5 does and I like the variety. I also work in Wausau, so I like the news once in a while. I pointed the second antenna at 330 degrees (closest I could get due to attic constraints) and ran a short RG6 into a splitter to pick up both antennas. From the splitter (combiner) I have a 3' RG6 going to the preamp.


The first night every thing was fine. The added antenna cost me about 20% on all Green Bay channels due to the added noise floor of the second antenna. Channels 9 and 20 from Wausau are showing a signal strength of 90% while channel 7 is at 60%. Nighttime viewing was excellent. But then I came home and turned the TV on in the afternoon and channel 5 had a signal that was bouncing all over.


I figured I had interfering signals between the two antennas, so I unhooked the Wausau antenna and everything stabilized. All Green Bay signals went way back up and channel 5 was again fine.


I thought about this. I removed the 3' long RG6 that connected the Wausau antenna to the splitter/ combiner. Channel 5 instantly cleared up and went to 80% signal strength. I replaced the 3' coax with a 25' RG6 between the Wausau antenna and the combiner. Channel 5 stayed at 80% while the other Green Bay stations went back up to 90% except for channel 38, which only rose back to 60%. Wausau channels 9 and 20 are both at 90%, while channel 7 is at 60%. All channels lock 100% of the time with no dropouts.


I live on the west side of a hill. Green Bay is on the other side and is a problem. Wausau is a clear shot...I can see about 20 miles to the horizon when I look northwest. The Wausau towers are quite a bit higher in elevation.


If only I could figure out a way to rotate the Wausau antenna about 10 degrees farther west...I am sure I could get 7 in at 90%. Damn old farmhouse attic!


Bill


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rammitinski* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Yeah, it's probably better to have one, just in case. Channel Master and Winegard both make excellent, low noise amps.
> 
> 
> You can try:
> 
> www.solidsignal.com ,
> 
> www.warrenelectronics.com .



I'm looking at the 7777 http://www.solidsignal.com/tech_help_CM777X.asp 


It does have an FM trap doesnt it? For the fun of it i flipped off my current amps trap and got zip on the tv, so apparently FM trap is vital to my viewing.


Also i see it can just all sit on the floor of my unprotected attic and may even last longer than my distribution amp, which is likely being hurt by all these temp swings


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rgharrin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Willie,
> 
> I am 70 mi from Wausau, Green Bay, and Madison. I'm probably lucky
> 
> I get anything. Madison is blocked by trees (many and tall). Wausau
> 
> last I checked put out weak signals in HD (56kW and 117kW).
> 
> 
> I do have a clear shot at the horizon for Green Bay.
> 
> ABC, CBS, Fox, come in consistently. PBS can be iffy.
> 
> NBC is not dependable. I'm talking about HD out of GB.
> 
> 
> ABC-HD does it right. Reception is always strong with there non-directional
> 
> 1000 kW transmitter
> 
> 
> Willscary do you get Wausau in HD from 60 miles?




Try moving the antenna around on the roof you may need to find a sweet spot. CM 4228 is very good antenna but in your case it may not be the best because of the multi-path problem you will need more of directional antenna to tame the multi-path such as what willscary has MXU59 I belive it a Antenna Craft or go with Antenna Direct 91xg is a very good good antenna also. Don't give up to easly yet. It all trial and error setup. Just like my homemade DB-2 2 bay antenna could pick up DT 11 that is 60 miles away but in your case it won't because of the trees. If you can post just your zip code so I can get better idea where you are at.


One question are you using a antenna pre-amp? if yes which one ?



-Willie


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Anthony R* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello all:
> 
> 
> Does anyone know if it is possible to use a Silver Sensor (PHDTV1) antenna with a Channel Master 3041 pre-amp? The problem seems to be that the Silver Sensor has a coax output, whereas the 3041 has a twin-lead input. Is there an adapter (or some other connector available from some website) which would allow me to join the Sensor's coax output with the 3041's twin-lead input?
> 
> 
> Any help on this would be appreciated.




Yes you could but you will need a 300ohm to 75ohm transformer. Run the Coax cable from the Silver Senor then put the transformer then to the pre-amp.


Siliver Sensor >


----------



## vttom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Anthony R* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is there an adapter (or some other connector available from some website) which would allow me to join the Sensor’s coax output with the 3041’s twin-lead input?



Looking for something like this?

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103912


----------



## Anthony R

WillieAntenna & vttom:


Thanks! that's exactly the info I was looking for !


----------



## rgharrin

Willie,

I have the cm7777. Without it I'd get nothing.

zip is 54982

I've done the sweet spot thing.


----------



## willscary

Hey! I've got a picture of Silver Lake that I took while passing through in early February of this year! Every Wednesday I have meetings on jobsites and for the last couple of years I have been travelling through your neck of the woods quite often.

http://webpages.charter.net/willscar...%20websize.jpg 


A nice place to live!


----------



## rgharrin

Willscary,

Nice jpg

thanks


----------



## mrjim

Need help combining two antennas to one. Both antennas have pre-amps. Tried using Winegard CC-7870 antenna coupler, but only one antenna works. Live between Milwaukee to the north Chicago to the south.


----------



## Rick0725




> Quote:
> CC-7870 2-Set Antenna Coupler (VHF/UHF/FM)
> 
> Couples two 75 ohm leads from any 2 full band antennas to a 75 ohm coax downlead. Input and output through standard 75 ohm F-jacks. *AC/DC passive input to Set 1 side.* Includes three FC-5910 connectors. -3.5 insertion loss.



The CC-7870 is a full band antenna combiner that passes juice on only 1 leg. What antennas are you trying to combine. This combiner is not used to combine vhf and uhf for example.


If you need to power 2 preamps run 2 separate coax from each antenna to the 2 separate power inserters and combine with the cc-7870 from the tv out after the power inserters from each antenna inside. then split etc. from the combined output.


If you need to combine separate vhf and uhf antennas you would use a cm0549 or Winegard CS-7750 VHF/UHF separator/coupler.


If the results are not to your satisfaction you may need to spend some time finding a sweet spot with antenna aim since the 2 antennas may "react" with each other when not pointed in the same direction. You may need to aim each antenna a few degrees off so to speak.


You would not have this issue with a VHF/UHF combiner combining a vhf antenna with a uhf antenna since the bands are isolated and do not fall within each.


----------



## mrjim

Trying to combine AntennaCraft HDX1000 VHF UHF HD Antenna and Channel Master CM 3679 Deep Fringe Crossfire Series Antenna or close to it. Both have a pre-amp.


----------



## Rick0725




> Quote:
> Trying to combine AntennaCraft HDX1000 VHF UHF HD Antenna and Channel Master CM 3679 Deep Fringe Crossfire Series Antenna or close to it. Both have a pre-amp.



These are full band antennas and you are using the right combiner.


The CC-7870 is a full band antenna combiner that *passes power on only one side and not the other*.


If you need to power 2 preamps run 2 separate coax from each antenna preamp module to the 2 separate preamp power inserters and combine with the cc-7870 from the tv out *after* the power inserters (from each antenna) inside. then split etc. from the combined output of the CC-7870.


If the results are not to your satisfaction you may need to spend some time finding a sweet spot with antenna aim since the 2 antennas may "react/interfere" with each other when not pointed in the same direction. You may need to aim each antenna a few degrees off so to speak till you find the right combination.


----------



## killabee44




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Anthony R* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hello All:
> 
> 
> I had posted a similar type of question in another thread, but thought it might be better put here:
> 
> 
> My question: I need a short-term indoor antenna solution (08859 zip code), and I am looking to test out the Terk HDTVi or HDTVa over the next few days (I do also have a Phillips Silver Sensor on order, but it won't be arriving for a week or so). I think that the Terk HDTVi and HDTVa are the EXACT same antenna except for the additional add-on amplifier that comes with the HDTVa. Is this correct.are they otherwise the exact same antenna? Assuming this is so, then (rather then buy both) I would presume that I could just buy the HDTVa and test it out both with and without the amplifier added on. Which brings up the next question.would the HDTVa even work without the amp added on?
> 
> 
> Any help on these questions would be appreciated.




I have some similar questions regarding a DVR. I currently have dish network and would like to set up an antenna on my roof so that I dont have to pay them the $5.00 fee and I can get true HD reception on my locals.


Will I be able to see the locals in the guide and be able to record them if I get rid of the dish network $5.00 locals?


Can you guys recomend the smallest quality roof mount antenna that will get me the miami locals (I am only about 7 miles away from the towers (so antennaweb says) in zip 33026? I have never installed one before. I live in a hurricane zone, so I need really good hardware too...


I would be connecting its coax to a multiplexer which would combine the signals going to my tv and then splitting them up again at the satellite box.


Thanks a lot!


----------



## vttom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *killabee44* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Will I be able to see the locals in the guide and be able to record them if I get rid of the dish network $5.00 locals?



I have Dish and the ViP622 receiver, so I can't comment on any other combinations. In my experience, if you don't pay for a local package, you'll still see the local HDTV channels in the line-up in the EPG after doing a local channel scan. You can tune to them, and use all of your PVR functions. You just won't see any programming info next to the channel number in the EPG grid. At it will say is "Digital Programming". If you want to record something, you'll have to setup a manual timer.


Note that when you have a locals package, you get 10 days of programming for the HDTV locals in the EPG grid from Dish. The schedule in the PSIP data embedded in the OTA HDTV broadcasts only goes out a few hours. So, to me, the $5 fee is justified.


----------



## Rikimaru

I live in an apartment and am considering buying a DB2 to use indoors. I'm curisous to see if any of you also use this antenna indoors, and if so what do you use as a stand? Thanks!


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rikimaru* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live in an apartment and am considering buying a DB2 to use indoors. I'm curisous to see if any of you also use this antenna indoors, and if so what do you use as a stand? Thanks!



How far are you from the broadcast towers? The DB2 is a UHF only antenna (with some limited performance for the upper VHF channels), are all of your digital stations on UHF? If you post your zip code, we can look up the local stations and tell you if the DB2 is going to cut it.


As for mounting the DB2, since it is not that large, there should many way ways to do it. Build something yourself with a PVC pipe or wooden pole and a flat piece of wood for a base. Or mount it high up on a wall facing the broadcast towers.


----------



## rgharrin

E-Mailed to FCC


When analog TV ends in 2009, WLUK-DT (Green Bay, WI) plans to move from channel 51 to channel 11. This would make them the only VHF station in Green Bay. As a consequence, thousands will have to invest in a second antenna to pick up just one station. Complains have been made to the station management. Is there any other recourse?

Thanks,

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Your recent inquiry was referred to me.


The FCC approves TV station channel allocations and the only recourse I can think of is to submit a complaint through our informal complaint process at 


Dan Rumelt

Federal Communications Commission


----------



## rawise

Just got an HDTV and hooked up an old UHF hoop antenna I had laying around. With precise placement I am able to lock onto Baltimore DT stations (all 3 major networks) but with very low signal (~30 out of 100). The hoop antenna is presently set up indoors on the 1st floor of a 2 story house in the corner of the house nearest to the direction of the towers. Towers are ~48 miles away. Surprisingly, the channels are very watchable even at signal strength 30, but any slight movement of the antenna can cause signal drop. I'd like to improve signal strength with preferably (1) an outdoor antenna mounted at or below roof height or (2) an attic antenna.


Do I understand correctly that the hoop may be picking up reflected signals and that a larger outdoor/attic antenna (say a CM 4221, DB4, XG91, etc.) designed for direct signal pickup may not necessarily perform better -- or am I pretty much guaranteed a better signal with an outdoor/attic set up compared to what I am getting with the hoop?


All the Baltimore stations I am targeting are in the same direction (243 deg) at 48 miles. If I could also pick up Lancaster/York stations centered at about 320 deg, 40 miles, that would be a bonus. Philadelphia is actually closer than either of these but LOS is not as good. Any recommendations on an antenna?


Thanks.


----------



## ray50

I put up an Winegard HD8200 (on roof) to pick up DTV ~60 miles away. While this worked 'OK' I had a poor signal with dropouts in bad weather and after leaves came out. I then mounted an HD9095P UHV antenna 4 ft. above the 8200 and combined the two. UHF wasn't much better so I tried disconnecting the UHF section of the 8200 and saw an improvement. I have been watch DTV (HDTV) for months with signals 50%-80%. Now that the weather is better I an thinking about replacing the 'very directional high gain' 9095P with maybe an 8-Bay like the CM4228 or the Winegard 8800. Anyone have experience switching between a multi-bay and a single reflector type antenna. How about multipath rejection. (BTW the antenna has a Winegard AP-8275 pre-amp also)

Thanks


----------



## killabee44

Hey wu-infinite,


I just ordered the MANT950 online and should have it early next week. Wish me luck!


----------



## Tobias Ziegler

Let us know how the MANT950 works


----------



## killabee44

Ray50,


For UHF try the mant940. I read reviews about it and they are very good. Wu-infinite posted about it on page 190 of this thread with pics. They are selling it at walmart for less than $40.00.


----------



## ray50

Killabee44 thanks. I may have one already as I was tring to get DTV at my daughters house only about 15 miles from towers. We went with powered rabbit ears (UHF/VHF) so she can still watch VHF analog. I still have the 940 waiting to go back to W*mart. I will give it a try this weekend, however I am old school when it comes to antennas and have always believed that bigger is better. Seems like a 6' yagi would be better than that small antenna BUT maybe I will be learn something new.


----------



## killabee44




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ray50* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Killabee44 thanks. I may have one already as I was tring to get DTV at my daughters house only about 15 miles from towers. We went with powered rabbit ears (UHF/VHF) so she can still watch VHF analog. I still have the 940 waiting to go back to W*mart. I will give it a try this weekend, however I am old school when it comes to antennas and have always believed that bigger is better. Seems like a 6' yagi would be better than that small antenna BUT maybe I will be learn something new.



No problem. I also believe that in general the bigger the antenna, the better the reception will be. Its just that I live in Florida and hurricanes destroy large antennas. Hurricane Wilma was really bad in my area.


When doing my research, I wanted an antenna that could receive VHF as well as UHF. I chose the MANT950 based on the reviews. When it is up and installed, it is supposed to be about 6' across but is just one plastic pipe, so less for a hurricane to grab on to.


----------



## nybbler

rawise -- at or below roofline mount plus high vhf reception (come 2009, Baltimore will have 11 and 13) points to the Channel Master 4228. If you want to get Philly and/or Lancaster you'll probably have to get above the roofline (otherwise your house will block the signal) and put in a rotor (or use multiple antennas), and a different antenna might be appropriate.


Given that a simple UHF loop works, the 4221 MIGHT work, but at 48 miles I'd go for the 4228 anyway, as inexpensive insurance against having to mount an antenna twice.


----------



## willscary

Just to put in my $.02. I have a pair of Antennacraft MXU59 antennas mounted in my attic, pointing to 2 different cities. With this UHF antenna, I pick up analog channels 7 and 9 in Wausau crystal clear. The towers are 62 miles away. I would think that these antennas will work perfectly fine for upper VHF when the switch comes.


----------



## Rick0725




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ray50* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I put up an Winegard HD8200 (on roof) to pick up DTV ~60 miles away. While this worked 'OK' I had a poor signal with dropouts in bad weather and after leaves came out. I then mounted an HD9095P UHV antenna 4 ft. above the 8200 and combined the two. UHF wasn't much better so I tried disconnecting the UHF section of the 8200 and saw an improvement. I have been watch DTV (HDTV) for months with signals 50%-80%. Now that the weather is better I an thinking about replacing the 'very directional high gain' 9095P with maybe an 8-Bay like the CM4228 or the Winegard 8800. Anyone have experience switching between a multi-bay and a single reflector type antenna. How about multipath rejection. (BTW the antenna has a Winegard AP-8275 pre-amp also)
> 
> Thanks



ray


combine your hd8200p for vhf/fm with the 91xg for uhf mounted about 3.5' apart. I tried the cm 4228 and found that the cm 4228 does not tame multipath well from the trees. I have some big trees here. I combined the hd8200p with the 91xg at my home and found that I had the best results with this combination. I tried a ton of different antenna combinations here the last 23 years.


The Ap 8275 has very high gain for vhf and uhf and might be alittle high for you if you have stations less than 30 miles away with short run of coax and few splits.


when you combine the 2 antennas, you may want to amplify uhf and pass the vhf from the hp8200p if you can and examine if the ap8275 is the right preamp for your conditions.


you should not combine the hd8200p and a uhf antenna together with a standard 2 way combiner. you would need to use a cm0549 vhf/uhf combiner or can use a preamp with dual vhf/uhf inputs (if the isolation is accepable between bands).


see picture of my install showing the big trees.


you may get alot of opinions but I can honestly say from experience that the 91xg hd8200p combination tames multipath well and the 91xg out performs the uhf portion of hd8200p and does better on channels than the cm4228.


----------



## newsposter




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rikimaru* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live in an apartment and am considering buying a DB2 to use indoors. I'm curisous to see if any of you also use this antenna indoors, and if so what do you use as a stand? Thanks!



I had my DB8 hanging in my attic for a while. I used an old broom handle and hung it on a nail on the joist. Obviously you cant do that in an apt, but maybe will give you some ideas .


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rikimaru* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live in an apartment and am considering buying a DB2 to use indoors. I'm curisous to see if any of you also use this antenna indoors, and if so what do you use as a stand? Thanks!




I also live in a apartment and I have a homebuilt DB-2 on a 1x3 board and I have a three sided outside wall closets and set it leaning against the wall over the hanging rack shelf. But as mounting the DB-2 I would do it take a 1 1/4" round wood rod and get a 1x4 for a base and mount the wood pole with a long screw from bottom of the base and go though the pole but don't tight it to tight just leave a little loose so you can turn the pole with little force. If you put it in the closet mount the pole on the end and make sure can swing round if need to and use the 3m tape that they use for the wall mount hangers put couple of those under the base board and top of the coat rack shelf. All the parts is from Lowe's or Home Depot. I got the 1x3x24 board from HP for $1.80. With the way I mount my I pick up station 60 miles away with no problem even DT 8 & 11 comes in great. Now only if I can find a smaller rotor for the DB-2 that would be great.


-Willie


----------



## newsposter

 http://www.solidsignal.com/tech_help_CM777X.asp 


1. Choose a location for mounting the indoor power supply as close to the television set and a 120 volt 60 Hz AC electrical outlet as possible.


-------

Am I going to have a problem with my setup? Currently I have a 25 ft run into my unconditioned (ie HOT and freezing) attic, an amp with fm trap, then 75ft to my tv.


if i follow the above instructions, the power supply for the amp will be 100 ft away from the antenna, right in back of the tv. Will it amplify or 'push' just as well as the one in the attic, 75ft closer did?


----------



## engage

Hi all. Im a noob that wants to go OTA all the way. No cable, no satellite just Netflix for my Oppo and whatever is free. I recently ran RG6 to three rooms plus a run to the chimney where I plan to install a Yagi. All the runs converge in the basement where I plan to split the signal. I have one new 40" Sony flat panel and one older Sony 32" XBR. My thinking is to get an OTA digital receiver for the older Sony but the market is not exactly flooded with em. Any recommendations that won't break the bank? Also Im thinking of using the terrestial digital Y2XG for the antenna. Here's my specs for location. Zip 55416 The antenna farm is about 13 miles compass orientation is 48 and 45, frequencies are between 21 and 44. The problem is the Twin Cities are in between me and the farm. Oh yes there are lots of trees big elms and maples and yes I have a wife which means no antenna higher than the chimney. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks, Tom


----------



## Rick0725

The 43 xg would be perfect there today.


I now use a 43 xg here and prefer it over the 42xg, cm4221, rs u75r which I have tried and compared here. I have a tree issue also and the 43xg tamed the signal fluctuations from the trees best out of the bunch mentioned .


2 channels are going to vhf in 2009.

KARE TO CH11

KMSP TO CH 9


considering the tree issue, would therefore select a winegard hd7080p or hd7082p. this will also allow you have plenty of cushion for windy days, to receive fm if interested, enough signal to maybe go without a preamp, and still view the vhf analog stations on the older equipment in the home till the transition in 2009.


if a preamp is necessary suggest the winegard hdp269.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=TD-43XG 

http://www.summitsource.com/winegard...69-p-5577.html 

http://www.summitsource.com/winegard...le-p-4562.html 

http://www.summitsource.com/winegard...le-p-4563.html


----------



## engage

Thanks Rick. I think I'll go with the 43 XG and stick with an all digital signal for now. Any suggestions for a digital receiver for my sony XBR?


Tom


----------



## Rick0725

the lg below receives ntsc, atsc, and qam ...and you get an 1080i upconverting dvd player/recorder. $199 on sale this week.


the samsung atsc/qam tuner alone is $179 in comparison. $20 gets you a dvd player/recorder.


I love my lg's. great picture for off air. damn I might just buy one!

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1169512521931 

http://us.lge.com/download/product/f...469/DR787T.pdf


----------



## bjriffel

I bought a Channel Master 4228 UHF antenna and the Winegard 8275 preamp. I thought there was a chance that I could pick up VHF 7 with the 4228, but it seems that I am just too far away from the tower. What are my options for adding a VHF antenna? Right now I have the 4228 mounted on the side of my house, just even with the top of my privacy fence. I don't want the antennas visible from the road, and there are no buildings between me and the tv towers (well, none within 200 feet). Is there a small VHF outdoor antenna that I could hook up using a Jointenna? All of the VHF antennas I've seen are those huge roof top models. With the UHF antenna I have now, the signal is at about 20% for VHF 7, I only need a little better signal to be happy. If I added a small VHF antenna and could get to 40% that would be perfect.


Any ideas?


----------



## bjriffel

Also, since my antenna isn't above my roof line, I didn't know if I still need it to be grounded. Will that improve any signal, or is it just for lightning protection?


----------



## alaskaman1666

Did anyone try the Jaycar 91 el UHF antenna. How does it compare to the 91XG?


----------



## alaskaman1666




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bjriffel* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also, since my antenna isn't above my roof line, I didn't know if I still need it to be grounded. Will that improve any signal, or is it just for lightning protection?



If your CM 4228 won't get the Vhf station you want add a VHF High Band Yagi.

Look at the Winegard YA1713 VHF High Band Antenna.(SOLIDSIGNAL WEBSITE)

Grounding is mostly for lightning protection.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> the lg below receives ntsc, atsc, and qam ...and you get an 1080i upconverting dvd player/recorder. $199 on sale this week.
> 
> 
> the samsung atsc/qam tuner alone is $179 in comparison. $20 gets you a dvd player/recorder.
> 
> 
> I love my lg's. great picture for off air. damn I might just buy one!
> 
> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1169512521931
> 
> http://us.lge.com/download/product/f...469/DR787T.pdf



As long as you understand that the ATSC signal in ALL of these DVD Recorders

is down-rezzed....so it isn't HD, even when used as as OTA tuner:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...post10012691 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD_rec..._DVD_recorders


----------



## Rick0725

what a bummer!!!


stinks actually.


----------



## videobruce

More of a joke, a scam and misrepresentation. A "HD" tuner that doesn't output HD.


----------



## bjriffel

Channel 7 is KMBC 9 in Kansas City. I'm in Ottawa, KS 66067. What is the difference between the joiner and the Jointenna I looked at?


----------



## videobruce

No, one out directly as compoment, the other out to be downconverted for the recorder. One tuner, two outputs (internally). The reason it is this way is in my sig.


----------



## yardbird

I didn't see his mileage to the tower. I can say I have the CM4228 and I am getting channel 7 here extremely well from about 38 miles AND I'm shooting through 60' trees that are only about 25 feet from my antenna. The CM4228 is on a 20' mast at the gable end of my house.


----------



## dv9384




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vttom* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Note that when you have a locals package, you get 10 days of programming for the HDTV locals in the EPG grid from Dish. The schedule in the PSIP data embedded in the OTA HDTV broadcasts only goes out a few hours. So, to me, the $5 fee is justified.




vttom, I also have Dish with the ViP622 and OTA for HD locals. From your comment about PSIP from OTA only going out a few hours, does this mean you are getting the PSIP info to show through the 622? All I get, and I have called Dish, is "Digital Programming" to show up for my OTA locals.


If you are getting PSIP info from OTA locals, how are you doing this? Dish tells me the 622 doesn't support this. I'm so ticked at them for not correcting this in the software of the 622 - if that's really the problem.


Thanks


----------



## JRRandall

Hi everyone. This looks like a helpful thread so I will ask my question here. I live in a southern suburb of Boston roughly 9 - 12 miles away from 11 transmitting towers ranging from 358 to 5 degrees on the compass. I want^H^H^H am forced to do an attic installation because my wife hates the way antennas look yada yada. I live within 2 miles of a small airport and near some tall trees. I'm also on top of a hill. I am concerned not about signal strength but mostly about multipath interference. I am thinking a directional antenna would be best in my case, but I am here to ask the experts what they think. Here is a list of my digital stations:
Code:


Code:


yellow - uhf    WSBK-DT 38.1    IND     BOSTON  MA              358°    9.3     39
yellow - uhf    WFXT-DT 25.1    FOX     BOSTON  MA              3°      8.6     31
yellow - uhf    WGBH-DT 2.1     PBS     BOSTON  MA              358°    9.3     19
yellow - uhf    WGBX-DT 44.1    PBS     BOSTON  MA              358°    9.3     43
yellow - uhf    WLVI-DT 56.1    CW      CAMBRIDGE MA            3°      8.6     41
yellow - uhf    WBPX-DT 68.1    ION     BOSTON  MA              2°      9.0     32
yellow - uhf    WHDH-DT 7.1     NBC     BOSTON  MA              5°      9.2     42
yellow - uhf    WBZ-DT  4.1     CBS     BOSTON  MA              358°    9.3     30
yellow - uhf    WCVB-DT 5.1     ABC     BOSTON  MA              358°    9.3     20
green - uhf     WMFP-DT 18.1    SAH     LAWRENCE MA             2°      9.0     18
red - uhf       WYDN-DT 47      DAY     WORCESTER MA            2°      9.0     47

Like I said before I'm concerned about multipath so I am considering the Terrestrial Digial 42XG as an option for the attic installation even though it is an "outdoor" antenna. I am also considering the Channel Master CM 4221A bow tie style antenna which is more prone to multipath obviously. My questions are do these look like viable solutions in your opinions? And is the 42XG overkill for me since the range on it says 10-50 miles from transmitters? I am thinking that since this is an attic install the gain and range will be far less, which should work out okay for me since 9 miles is the sweet spot. Any advice will be appreciated. I am most interrested in OTA HDTV. Thanks!


----------



## vttom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dv9384* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> vttom, I also have Dish with the ViP622 and OTA for HD locals. From your comment about PSIP from OTA only going out a few hours, does this mean you are getting the PSIP info to show through the 622? All I get, and I have called Dish, is "Digital Programming" to show up for my OTA locals.
> 
> 
> If you are getting PSIP info from OTA locals, how are you doing this? Dish tells me the 622 doesn't support this. I'm so ticked at them for not correcting this in the software of the 622 - if that's really the problem.
> 
> 
> Thanks



No, the 622 does not display the PSIP data. The behavior as you describe it is normal. I can look at the PSIP data if I use the ATSC tuner built-into my HDTV.


----------



## vttom




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JRRandall* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live in a southern suburb of Boston roughly 9 - 12 miles away



9-12 miles away? You could probably do fine with tin foil and a coat hanger. Seriously, have you tried a simple indoor UHF loop or bow tie? You might be surprised.


----------



## Rikimaru




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How far are you from the broadcast towers? The DB2 is a UHF only antenna (with some limited performance for the upper VHF channels), are all of your digital stations on UHF? If you post your zip code, we can look up the local stations and tell you if the DB2 is going to cut it.
> 
> 
> As for mounting the DB2, since it is not that large, there should many way ways to do it. Build something yourself with a PVC pipe or wooden pole and a flat piece of wood for a base. Or mount it high up on a wall facing the broadcast towers.



76301.


----------



## JRRandall




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> JR
> 
> 
> If you are concerned about multipath and all your channels are uhf.
> 
> 
> prefer the 43xg over the 42xg, cm4221, db2, rs u75r.
> 
> 
> just went through the exercise. spent all afternoon in a hot, yucky, cramped attic and the 43xg was the best performer in there...period!
> 
> 
> also at my home, I struggled with a 5,000,000 watt station 7.8 miles from the home on the other side of trees. tried all the antenna above and the 43 xg was best at taming the multpath.
> 
> 
> So do not be concerned with overkill...non issue. the cushion will come in handy trust me.



Excellent Rick! Thank you for the info, I will seriously consider the 43xg now. Appreciate it. I'll post back with results


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *yardbird* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I didn't see his mileage to the tower. I can say I have the CM4228 and I am getting channel 7 here extremely well from about 38 miles AND I'm shooting through 60' trees that are only about 25 feet from my antenna. The CM4228 is on a 20' mast at the gable end of my house.



Be careful. The 4228 has a huge "suck out" area with low gain near the top of channel 7. See the last graph here: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


Reception of WKBW, an analog channel, will still work, but with a slightly softer picture. Reception of digital on channel 7 will be much harder.


----------



## duffaukid

I'm moving my attic antenna outside to a 12 foot pole on the peak of my roof.


I will set the base of the pole on my ceiling joists and cut a hole in my roof near the peak which is about 5 feet above the joist. That should allow my 12 foot high antenna to withstand substantial winds without any wires holding the mast up.


Is there any reason I can't use 1 inch pvc for the mast?


Should I do a ground wire to the peak for lighting protection?


----------



## yardbird

I had to go learn what you meant by "suck out" area.







And fortunately, WKBW's digital HD that MAPS to 7.1 is actually 38-1 so ... when I first read your response I was wondering why 7 digital would be harder until I realized you meant actual channel 7 VHF. (I'm still learning and easily confused)


I didn't get the 4228 with any thoughts of using it for VHF. And while I found it interesting that it received some of the VHF channels so well at these distances, I remove them after a scan anyways. I got the antenna for local HD only. The rest I get on satellite.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *yardbird* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I had to go learn what you meant by "suck out" area.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And fortunately, WKBW's digital HD that MAPS to 7.1 is actually 38-1 so ... when I first read your response I was wondering why 7 digital would be harder until I realized you meant actual channel 7 VHF. (I'm still learning and easily confused)
> 
> 
> I didn't get the 4228 with any thoughts of using it for VHF. And while I found it interesting that it received some of the VHF channels so well at these distances, I remove them after a scan anyways. I got the antenna for local HD only. The rest I get on satellite.



That makes sense.


As near as I can tell, the idea that the 4228 is a good VHF antenna began in Connecticut, where WTNH-DT is on channel 10. The 4228 actually does pretty well on channel 10. Due to the dynamics of Forums, that lore has spread out to other geographical areas where the well-intended advice turns into misinformation.


----------



## yardbird




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That makes sense.
> 
> 
> As near as I can tell, the idea that the 4228 is a good VHF antenna began in Connecticut, where WTNH-DT is on channel 10. The 4228 actually does pretty well on channel 10. Due to the dynamics of Forums, that lore has spread out to other geographical areas where the well-intended advice turns into misinformation.



Ahh... so THAT's where it came from... hehehhe...


Actually... I get channel 2 VHF on the 4228 as well... and channel 4... both from about 38 miles. Channel 2 is completely understandable, but not what I'd call watchable. Channel 4 is snowy but you could watch it in a pinch. channel 7 comes in quite clearly, but as I said... that's kind of a novelty and I only really mention that it receives them because I was surprised that it got them at all. When I bought the 4228 I bought a UHF antenna. As a UHF antenna I'm pulling in stations from Toronto (about 43 miles to the CN Tower from my house) off the BACKside of the antenna. If I ever get a rotor, I think I'm in a good spot to pull Buffalo, Grand Island, Toronto and possibly.... possibly... Rochester, but that might be asking a bit much as I think I'm 63 miles from some of the Rochester transmitters.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Be careful. The 4228 has a huge "suck out" area with low gain near the top of channel 7. See the last graph here: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
> 
> 
> Reception of WKBW, an analog channel, will still work, but with a slightly softer picture. Reception of digital on channel 7 will be much harder.



I would also be careful with NEC computer simulation results posted on hdtvprimer....

Unfortunately, in many cases, it's all we got.....


Kerry Cozad (Dielectric Antennas) measured gain on REAL antennas,

including CM-4228 (see the Excel spread sheet):
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1126051755 


Although Kerry only measured odd channel numbers in the VHF range,

CH7/9/11/13 had nearly same gain (9 dBd +/- 0.5 dB, incl. "ground bounce gain").


In this thread on 24Sep2005, (Stn Engr in Houston) posted

spectrum analyzer received signal levels for 8 OUTDOOR antennas, incl. CM-4228:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2post6245872 

Note that NTSC CH8 (KUHT) and DTV CH9 (KUHT-DT) come from same antenna structure.

You'll have to really zoom in on the *.pdf to see the different colors....


For CH9/11/13, CM-4228 exhibits only 3-4 dB less gain than W-G HD7210

(which has 3 VHF elements) and has about 5-7 dB less gain for CH8...so maybe

there is a loss of 3-4 dB on CH8 relative to higher channels.

[PS: Compare the peaks vice in-between video levels, which varies with picture.]


Note the POOR performance for 91XG and SS-1000 in upper VHF band....

And the additional gain realized with a "big" VHF antenna...if you "NEED" it....


================================

Clearly, the very deep nulls in the frequency response depicted in the hdtvprimer

NEC SIM results for the CM-4228 are an exaggeration in the computer's imagination....


Also note the hdtvprimer currently posted NEC SIM results for the CM-4228

(with and without screen connections) are MUCH WORSE than the earlier results

(I'm looking at a Jun2005 printout), which depicted -4 dBd (vice -11 dBd) gain on CH8

and -2 dBd (vice -7 dBd) gain on CH12.


----------



## bushy

Hi there


I am looking for a small Indoor antenna for my condo. My zip is 92618. I have a large sliding glass window that faces west. Any suggestions?


Thanks


Bushy


----------



## Revolutionary




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bushy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi there
> 
> 
> I am looking for a small Indoor antenna for my condo. My zip is 92618. I have a large sliding glass window that faces west. Any suggestions?
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> Bushy



I think you'll find that most people here will recommend the Terrestrial Digital DB-2. (some will persist in recommending the Silver Sensor by Philips, but it is really not in the same league as the DB-2). It is designed to be used outside, but it is small and svelte enough to be used indoors in most homes/apartments. I've got one behind a big chair.










This is something of an announcement for DB-2 fans: up until now, many people have been hesitant to try the DB-2 because indoor antenna buying is so hit-or-miss and you really need to be able to return a non-performer--folks were nervous about buying it from AntennasDirect.com. Well, the DB-2 is now available at Target (*online only*). You can buy it online, and if it doesn't work out for you, return to your nearest B&M.










Cheers,

Rev


----------



## acesea

Been lurking through this thread and regret I have not gotten into HDTV over the air transmissions ealier. I have a very basic understanding of antennas through wifi deployment, but now I am looking at serving hdtv- a bit different imagine.


I work for a residential developer and we have a few new building coming up in the Chicago downtown area (South Loop, specifically Roosevelt & S. Michigan.). One 20 story and one 10 story building. I've been approached by numerous local cable providers trying to get us to subscribe. Would deploying an hd antenna on the roof be a viable alternative to offering free high quality channels to the buildings residents?

I am willing to spend more time studying the art and science behind it, would I be able to follow through the deployment of the cabling and antennas myself or is it in my best interest to get a pro to do it? Any idea what the cost might be associated with this?


Thanks for any input.


----------



## vttom

I'm sure if you look hard enough you can find a commercial system which does what you're looking for. For example, my local Best Buy has probably close to 100 HDTV displays all showing the same programming. Tinkering with the input settings on one of the sets revealed that it's being delivered to each set via RF and the built-in ATSC tuner. You could probably use a similar system to distribute the HD OTA signals throughout the building.


However, you're only going to get the local network affiliates that way. I think the reality is that most people will still opt for a more-extensive cable-channel line-up in SD than for a OTA-channel line-up in HD.


Edit: Oh yeah. And what about people who want to get cable-modems? You'd better make sure you make DSL available if you don't offer cable.


----------



## jtbell

What you want is an MATV (Master Antenna Television) system. At least one person who hangs out here has professional experience in them. Take a look a the following thread to get an idea of some of the issues involved:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=779057


----------



## escopa

I think what he wants is a second free alternative to Hd broadcasting, not a another whole subscribe system. If you're at 10 or 20 stories then you're probably going with a flat top tar shingled roof. You'd be able to go with a two antenna system. One pointed at the Hancock and another at Sears in order to get all local stations, then going into a dual antenna preamp trap. You would then amp distribute each floor or every 100 or so feet. I would only go with this an altnerative option to the units. I don't know of too many condo buyers only opting for free broadcast. You'll still have to wire the units up for cable, either get RCN or Comcast to split that cost if they want your customers.


What ever you do don't go with the outlets half way up the wall or an outlet directly over the firplace. If anything, on the side of the fireplace. I've been inspecting new 4 flat construction in Jefferson Park and that seems to be the new trend. It is a must to at least prewire the bedrooms and least two places in the den with a coax outlet. You might also want to consider a coax hot box if you decide to let tenants have DBS.


----------



## nybbler

acesea: You're going to need a pro. If for no other reason, that it probably requires a license or two to do the wiring and put the antennas on the roof. As jtbell says, what you're looking for is an MATV system.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would also be careful with NEC computer simulation results posted on hdtvprimer....
> 
> Unfortunately, in many cases, it's all we got.....
> 
> 
> In this thread on 24Sep2005, (Stn Engr in Houston) posted
> 
> spectrum analyzer received signal levels for 8 OUTDOOR antennas, incl. CM-4228:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2post6245872
> 
> Note that NTSC CH8 (KUHT) and DTV CH9 (KUHT-DT) come from same antenna structure.
> 
> You'll have to really zoom in on the *.pdf to see the different colors....
> 
> ================================
> 
> Clearly, the very deep nulls in the frequency response depicted in the hdtvprimer
> 
> NEC SIM results for the CM-4228 are an exaggeration in the computer's imagination....



Bob Chase's measurements were not intended to show this specific characteristic of the 4228 antenna.


The Chase measurements on channel 8 are limited by the skirt selectivity of his spectrum analyzer. In this case the strong channel 7 analog signal is actually showing up as response in the lower section of channel 8. That effect is likely causing the tilt on channel 8 of the three VHF antennas shown on the graph. To see the equipment limitation more clearly, look at the wide shoulders on the analog signal on channel 20 in his UHF plot. The same tilt evident on channel 8 also shows up on channels 27, 35, 46, and 48 with the analog channels 26, 34, 45, and 47 below. If you try to compensate for the effect to impute a channel 8 "suck-out" number for the 4228, it's still in the 8 db range, but that estimate can't be trusted. According to the NEC calculations on HDTV primer, the "suck out" gain minimum of the 4228 on channel 8 is about 11 db.


Even 8 db of suckout sure makes the adaptive equalizer in the receiver work hard.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *yardbird* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ahh... so THAT's where it came from... hehehhe...
> 
> 
> If I ever get a rotor, I think I'm in a good spot to pull Buffalo, Grand Island, Toronto and possibly.... possibly... Rochester, but that might be asking a bit much as I think I'm 63 miles from some of the Rochester transmitters.



You should do fine with Rochester stations. I grew up in Bergholz. (3 miles from Sanborn) We got the VHF stations in Rochester and most of Sanborn is higher than Bergholz.


----------



## acesea

Thanks for the info thus far everyone. I will look into the Master Antenna Television thread and related material. In the meantime, anyone know of or have experience with a professional in the Chicago area? I am open to recommendations.

Also, escopa, when you say that I should get RCN or Comcast to split the cost.. are you refering to having them pay for a part of the free ota system? Just want to be clear on this. I have a lot of local cable reps killing for my business so I want to know that I have leverage in some things which I can use.


----------



## SubaruB4

Whoa this topic has too many pages.. but has anyone tried to build their own DB2 Antenna?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Bob Chase's measurements were not intended to show this specific characteristic of the 4228 antenna.
> 
> 
> The Chase measurements on channel 8 are limited by the skirt selectivity of his spectrum analyzer. In this case the strong channel 7 analog signal is actually showing up as response in the lower section of channel 8. That effect is likely causing the tilt on channel 8 of the three VHF antennas shown on the graph. To see the equipment limitation more clearly, look at the wide shoulders on the analog signal on channel 20 in his UHF plot. The same tilt evident on channel 8 also shows up on channels 27, 35, 46, and 48 with the analog channels 26, 34, 45, and 47 below. If you try to compensate for the effect to impute a channel 8 "suck-out" number for the 4228, it's still in the 8 db range, but that estimate can't be trusted. According to the NEC calculations on HDTV primer, the "suck out" gain minimum of the 4228 on channel 8 is about 11 db.
> 
> 
> Even 8 db of suckout sure makes the adaptive equalizer in the receiver work hard.



But the "skirt" above N20 is also N21-LP....

And, of course, "skirt" selectivity should affect all antennas equally....


Only the frequency response across a particular channel is of interest,

rather than the total amount of "suck-out" across multiple channels....


Across D09, none of the antennas exceeds +/- 2 dB, which is hardly any problem....

If there truly is a "skirt" effect, it only adds another 2 dB unevenness across the band.

Which is STILL within the ballpark of what a receiver will have to cope with

using ANY of the antennas on channels D27, D35, D36, D46 & D48.


Plotting the more or less stable signal points (NTSC Video and Audio carriers),

yields the freq response shown in the below jpg.....note that CM4228 is relatively

flat across N08, although at a level about 6 dB lower than CH11-13.

NEC SIM runs also predicted a huge (~10 dB) frequency roll-off across CH11,

but on-air measurements only shows 3 dB.....


I just don't see evidence of huge, sharp nulls in the frequency response....

We have to bear in mind that REAL antennas will have different element

spacings and separations, which spreads out any resonance effects....

and "fills-in" deep nulls....so they're much milder freq response variations....


I chose to plot the gain values relative to the W-G HD7210 (no gain specs avail),

you can look at the CM3671 and VU-90XR NEC SIM on hdtvprimer and

CM3671/CM3016 specs on stark electronics website....

You'll find rough agreement, although the slope magnitudes will vary...


=============================

The uneven response for CM4228 on D05 and D09 has the rippled "look"

of multipath.....which causes the signal to vary with frequency over time....

so we should be careful cuz we're only looking at a snapshot.....


Multipath "signature" is also seen with SS-1000 (brown) on D24, D27 and D32.


Although gain is important, the ability to reject multipath is also important...esp. for NTSC.

Obviously, a purpose built VHF antenna is going to have a better controlled F/B ratio.


Fortunately, modern 5th Gen ATSC tuners are much more tolerant

of multipath than earlier generation receivers....


So is a CM4228 as good as a purpose built VHF antenna--of course not,

but it's still worth trying when DTV moves to Hi-VHF.....many people

should find that it is more than "adequate"....and fits in the attic with a rotator...


Some might be lucky enough to find that their so-called UHF antenna also works

for CH2-6.....just as some find an old coat hanger is "good enough" now....


Just don't count on it.....YMMV.....


----------



## escopa

acesea- it sounded like you were going to foot the bill for installing the coax throughout the building. Get the cable company to install and foot the bill of wiring the building presheetrock. And you can always add to the bid, that they have to run a bi-wire system. One going to the roof (OTA) and one going to the street (cable). As a builder, I would never pay for an install that's going to an outside provider.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Plotting the more or less stable signal points (NTSC Video and Audio carriers),
> 
> yields the freq response shown in the below jpg.....note that CM4228 is relatively
> 
> flat across N08, although at a level about 6 dB lower than CH11-13.
> 
> NEC SIM runs also predicted a huge (~10 dB) frequency roll-off across CH11,
> 
> but on-air measurements only shows 3 dB.....
> 
> 
> I just don't see evidence of huge, sharp nulls in the frequency response....
> 
> We have to bear in mind that REAL antennas will have different element
> 
> spacings and separations, which spreads out any resonance effects....
> 
> and "fills-in" deep nulls....so they're much milder freq response variations....
> 
> 
> Just don't count on it.....YMMV.....



The CM4228 in Chase's graph looks flat on channel 8, but it really isn't. All real VHF antennas show a higher signal at the bottom of channel 8, but it's really channel 7 aural filling in the lower portion of channel 8. The CM4228 goes lower than the real antennas by 8 db. Yet, the calculation is not simply decibel subtraction. The skirts of channel 7 fill in the suck out. To me it clearly shows a greater than 8 db notch in channel 8.


The measurements of gain plotted on aural and visual carriers use insufficient data points to be useful.


I still believe the NEC calculations.


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SubaruB4* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Whoa this topic has too many pages.. but has anyone tried to build their own DB2 Antenna?




I have built a home made DB-2 and it works great for me. I even pick up a DT channel 11 that is 57 miles away indoor also get DT on 8 that is 43 miles away also. Here the link on how to build DB-2

http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9613 


Read it good and it really simple to build it only cost me about $8.00 to build it. At my old apartment which I had line of sight to Chicago that was 70 miles away and I locked on all Chicago DT station but WBBM CBS 2. If I was to put the antena in the attic I could get the Chicago station also.


Good luck building one.


-Willie


----------



## Rick0725

ch 11 57 miles...ch 8 43 miles ...on a double bow. receive how good.


I am going to try my double bow right now and see what I get.


ch 2 70 miles...come on.


----------



## escopa

acesea- You might want to give D.L. Markley & Associates a call. If they can't help you, then they might know of someone who can. They're in Peoria, but do a lot of work in the city. They have a web site that'll give you all the contact info.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ch 11 57 miles...ch 8 43 miles ...on a double bow. receive how good.
> 
> 
> ch 2 70 miles...come on.



Obviously this is not normal, everyday reception. But such things can (and do) happen. There is an analog channel 2 about 245 miles away from me, that I can pick up with my 8-bay bow-tie UHF antenna, a couple of times a year. And a channel 10 70 miles away that I can get almost every day.


Just goes to show that there are other factors that make more of a difference in reception that the antenna itself. Such as location, location, location...and tropospheric conditions, weather, etc.


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ch 11 57 miles...ch 8 43 miles ...on a double bow. receive how good.
> 
> 
> I am going to try my double bow right now and see what I get.
> 
> 
> ch 2 70 miles...come on.




Well Rick, I live in a 2nd floor apartment, there is 3 rows of 16 units I am on the far west building and on the westside of that building second in from the northside. Right now I have the antenna in the closet on the outside wall and it about 6 off the floor and it is faceing due east with slightly pointing to the sky and the analog channel 10 is digitaly trasmit on Ch 8 is northeast of me and analog channel 47 is digitaly trasmit on 11 and is northwest of me. And all other is in the UHF range.


How good do I get it I am using the Samung 260 as a reading. Channel 10 on 8 is reading 3 of 10 bars with no break up soild lock and the channel 47 on channel 11 it is rock solid also at 4 of 10 bars.


I did get Chicago Fox analog 32 which is on 31 digital but it had to be in the middle of my living room and just below the ceiling and it was a soild lock as well. I did not try the others station because my arm got sore from holding it up high. It about 74 miles away.


I did what most of the instructions in that link and made few mod and I am happy with it. At first I didn't think it would work but it proved me wrong it did work as well as my 4228 in some case it worked better than the 4228. So it is a sicence work but it work in my place and it my not work in your place or someone else, but you won't know until you try it and it was cheap and fun to build one. Some weekend I am going to try the DB-4 or make a 4220 / 4221 design and I will still have it under $10.00 to build one and best of all if it don't work you can take it apart and rebuild it or make a different one.


So let me know how your build one works out for you.


-Willie


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Obviously this is not normal, everyday reception. But such things can (and do) happen. There is an analog channel 2 about 245 miles away from me, that I can pick up with my 8-bay bow-tie UHF antenna, a couple of times a year. And a channel 10 70 miles away that I can get almost every day.
> 
> 
> 
> Just goes to show that there are other factors that make more of a difference in reception that the antenna itself. Such as location, location, location...and tropospheric conditions, weather, etc.




Well the the Digital 8 and 11 is lock on soild everyday 24/7. Both through the Samsung 260 and the Polaroid 3234-B HDTV set. I don't have the analog side hook up, the digtial spoiled me







so I don't watch analog channel.


-Willie


----------



## Rick0725




> Quote:
> How good do I get it I am using the Samung 260 as a reading. Channel 10 on 8 is reading 3 of 10 bars with no break up soild lock and the channel 47 on channel 11 it is rock solid also at 4 of 10 bars.



when I tried mine here this morning...ch 3 was a mess, ch 5 was less of a mess, ch 9 was decent. Ch 20 and 33 56 miles away were snowy, and the local ch 14 8 miles away at 13kw was snowy.


A double bow is a double bow. lets face it . 3 or 4 out of 10 is typical of what to expect from a double bow tie lock or no lock. lets not make it sound like the homemade double bow will perform a miracle or will the results be typical for all users.


I could pickup ch 3 with the double bow and rs u75r antenna and it was watchable (barely)...would I sell it to a customer or suggest one here. NO


What does pickup mean anyway?


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> when I tried mine here this morning...ch 3 was a mess, ch 5 was less of a mess, ch 9 was decent. Ch 20 and 33 56 miles away were snowy, and the local ch 14 8 miles away at 13kw was snowy.
> 
> 
> A double bow is a double bow. lets face it . 3 or 4 out of 10 is typical of what to expect from a double bow tie lock or no lock. lets not make it sound like the homemade double bow will perform a miracle or will the results be typical for all users.
> 
> 
> I could pickup ch 3 with the double bow and rs u75r antenna and it was watchable (barely)...would I sell it to a customer or suggest one here. NO
> 
> 
> What does pickup mean anyway?




Sorry Rick, it didn't work for you, But I don't get snowy picture on my digital 8 or 11 channel or any of the digital channel.


I NEVER said " the homemade double bow will perform a miracle or will the results be typical for all users."


I said " So it is a sicence work but it work in my place and it my not work in your place or someone else, but you won't know until you try it "


As your favortie XG-91 that would not work for me here, so don't lead others that your set up will work for everyone as you always do say. I just responded to SubaruB4 question I never said it would work for him just pointed the link so he can see for himself, and I was the only one responded to his question I see you didn't respond his question. And you always say "antenna science is not an exact science" Well it is a science, but you can't do the test from your place and find it don't work for you and then it don't work for anyone or anywhere else. It a work of science at everyplace where the antenna will be install, as Neil L said " Just goes to show that there are other factors that make more of a difference in reception that the antenna itself. Such as location, location, location...and tropospheric conditions, weather, etc." So it is a science.




-Willie


----------



## iaflyer

Hi guys - I'm needing some help on my antenna and improving my signal strength. I live outside Detroit, MI about 30 miles from the main antenna. I get most of my TV through DirecTV, but my receiver doesn't get the HDTV local stations - so I get those off the air.


I currently have a Phillips Silver Sensor UHF antenna - it's an indoor antenna but I've got it mounted outside.


My zipcode is 48103: here's the output from my address from antennaweb - only the digital stations are listed. The last number for each station is a relative signal strength off my D* receiver (0-100, 100 is perfect).

Code:


Code:


Antennaweb.org output

red - uhf       WDIV-DT 4.1     NBC     DETROIT MI              70°     32.0    45   88
red - uhf       WKBD-DT 50.1    CW      DETROIT MI              65°     27.2    14   51
red - uhf       WTVS-DT 56.1    PBS     DETROIT MI              75°     32.6    43   68
red - uhf       WMYD-DT 20.1    MNT     DETROIT MI              75°     32.6    21   28 
red - uhf       WJBK-DT 2.1     FOX     DETROIT MI              72°     30.9    58   71
red - uhf       WWJ-DT  62.1    CBS     DETROIT MI              75°     32.6    44   71
red - uhf       WXYZ-DT 7.1     ABC     DETROIT MI              70°     29.6    41   60
violet - uhf    WLNS-DT 6.1     CBS     LANSING MI              319°    41.8    59
violet - uhf    WTOL-DT 11.1    CBS     TOLEDO  OH              160°    46.6    17

I can get 4.1 fine, but 2.1 comes in with lots of pixelization. I'm trying to improve the signal so I can rely on the OTA for my wife to watch HDTV off the local stations (American Idol finale anyone? ;-) )


Ideas? - would an amplifier work? I found an old Radio Shack (so old the brand name was Archer!) amplifer, but it reduced the signal strength, I think it was only VHF.


----------



## serndipity

[QUOTE A double bow is a double bow. lets face it . [/quote]


A bow tie is just a dipole antenna with greater frequency response (broadband). It has the same performance of rabbit ears.


A DB2 is two bow ties in phase with a planar reflector. The combination provides some directivity and gain compared to rabbit ears (i.e. 5 dBd).


The lumenlab.com site also includes a lot of useful discussion on DTV reception issues (e.g. multi-path, SWR, baluns, coax loss, pre-amps etc.) and designs on really high performance antennas (e.g. log periodic dipoles, rhombics, co-linear arrays, 3 D reflectors etc.).


This weekend I posted a design for a monopole with 3 D reflector that cost less than $5 to build, has superior multi-path rejection and is capable of a gain in the 14 - 18 dBi range.


See post # 736 at:

http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index...ic=9613&st=720


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *iaflyer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hi guys - I'm needing some help on my antenna and improving my signal strength. I live outside Detroit, MI about 30 miles from the main antenna. I get most of my TV through DirecTV, but my receiver doesn't get the HDTV local stations - so I get those off the air.
> 
> 
> I currently have a Phillips Silver Sensor UHF antenna - it's an indoor antenna but I've got it mounted outside.
> 
> 
> My zipcode is 48103: here's the output from my address from antennaweb - only the digital stations are listed. The last number for each station is a relative signal strength off my D* receiver (0-100, 100 is perfect).



My advice would to be start by getting a better outdoor antenna with more gain rather than to try to boost the Silver Sensor. The Silver Sensor is a fine indoor UHF only antenna, but it is not really suitable for 30 miles with your color codes. Also, checking the FCC data, WJBK-DT Fox 2, currently on UHF 58, will switch to VHF 7 in February, 2009 after the analog shutdown. Oddly enough WXYZ-DT ABC 7 will stay on UHF 41. The Silver Sensor by itself will not get a VHF 7 station at that range.


Are you interested in trying to get Toledo or other digital stations? They are 40 to 50 miles in other directions and a broad pickup antenna may be able to get some of them. For your UHF stations, the Channel Master 4221 should easily get the Detroit stations and offers a shot at getting some of the other stations in Toledo & Lansing if you can aim it just right. But the future VHF 7 at 30 miles would be iffy for a CM 4221. Is there a size constraint for the antenna on your outside mount? Maybe a CM 4220 2 Bay or CM 4221 4 Bay combined with a dipole for VHF?


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My advice would to be start by getting a better outdoor antenna with more gain rather than to try to boost the Silver Sensor. The Silver Sensor is a fine indoor UHF only antenna, but it is not really suitable for 30 miles with your color codes. Also, checking the FCC data, WJBK-DT Fox 2, currently on UHF 58, will switch to VHF 7 in February, 2009 after the analog shutdown. Oddly enough WXYZ-DT ABC 7 will stay on UHF 41. The Silver Sensor by itself will not get a VHF 7 station at that range.



I am currently using a Silver Sensor, but considering all the results I have been able to find from TV Fool (mostly -85 to -99) and Antenna Web (violet), I don't understand why it's performing so well at 51 miles. I have a CM 3043 amp, but even w/o it the reception is quite good in my attic. As I am in the LA area (Orange County), all my channels are within a 1 degree angle.


I wouldn't think it possible for a small indoor antenna to work at this range. I am looking at getting a larger antenna, such as a CM4221 (getting the 4228 in the attic would be a real chore), but with all the channels (46, including sub-channels) I'm getting, I guess I should just call it a day. I even had good results with the RS 15-1634, which doesn't even seem like a real antenna to me.


I am concerned about the move back to VHF in time as the Silver Sensor doesn't get it done there. I will try and find some 'rabbit ears' to see if that is all I would need for VHF, but that seems equally absurd at my distance.


Is it conceivable that aspects of my terrain and the fact that hills block signals from most other directions lead to these results? I am quite excited it works so well, but I am the kind of person that wants to know why something works... and if I can make it even better, that would be great.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am currently using a Silver Sensor, but considering all the results I have been able to find from TV Fool (mostly -85 to -99) and Antenna Web (violet), I don't understand why it's performing so well at 51 miles. I have a CM 3043 amp, but even w/o it the reception is quite good in my attic. As I am in the LA area (Orange County), all my channels are within a 1 degree angle.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't think it possible for a small indoor antenna to work at this range. I am looking at getting a larger antenna, such as a CM4221 (getting the 4228 in the attic would be a real chore), but with all the channels (46, including sub-channels) I'm getting, I guess I should just call it a day. I even had good results with the RS 15-1634, which doesn't even seem like a real antenna to me.
> 
> 
> I am concerned about the move back to VHF in time as the Silver Sensor doesn't get it done there. I will try and find some 'rabbit ears' to see if that is all I would need for VHF, but that seems equally absurd at my distance.
> 
> 
> Is it conceivable that aspects of my terrain and the fact that hills block signals from most other directions lead to these results? I am quite excited it works so well, but I am the kind of person that wants to know why something works... and if I can make it even better, that would be great.



You are in LA where the broadcast towers are up on the top of Mt. Wilson at over 6000'. This gives those towers a long clear view over much of the LA area and to the south of it. If you don't have hills or buildings blocking the signal path in the direction of Mt. Wilson, you can get away with a small UHF antenna at ranges that most other places can't.


Don't know what the power will be for the digital upper VHF stations when they switch over, but you could make your own dipole antenna with the length optimized for the middle of upper VHF, get a VHF/UHF combiner, and see how the picture quality looks for the current upper VHF analog stations. If you get decent pictures for them, chances are that your setup will work for the post transition. If not, you could get a dedicated upper VHF antenna such as the Winegard YA-6713 ( http://www.winegard.com/offair/vhf.htm ) which is reasonably compact.


----------



## Konrad2

> I am looking at getting a larger antenna, such as a

> CM4221 (getting the 4228 in the attic would be a real

> chore),


If you have room in the attic but the problem is getting

a 4228 through the hatch, consider the Winegard PR-8800.

Gain is a tad less than 4228, but much better than 4221

and has better multipath rejection. The PR-8800 comes

folded up, you could put it through a doggie door.


----------



## yardbird

uh... the 4228 comes apart.









The screen comes off REALLY easily by bending (or UNbending) a few tabs. And I would think it would fit through a hatch easily without the screen attached. Then you can just reattach the screen. Considering the results you're already getting though, the 4221 might be easier.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Don't know what the power will be for the digital upper VHF stations when they switch over, but you could make your own dipole antenna with the length optimized for the middle of upper VHF, get a VHF/UHF combiner, and see how the picture quality looks for the current upper VHF analog stations. If you get decent pictures for them, chances are that your setup will work for the post transition. If not, you could get a dedicated upper VHF antenna such as the Winegard YA-6713 ( http://www.winegard.com/offair/vhf.htm ) which is reasonably compact.



Thanks for the info. So, channels 2-6 are going away? I was trying to figure out exactly which channels were being auctioned and could only confirm 52-69. Channels 2-6 are so far down the ladder it makes me wonder why they are there.


I tried out analog VHF with the Silver Sensor and channels 2, 4 & 5 were predictably bad. However, some channels in the 7-13 range were halfway decent.


I found some rabbit ears, which I will try out. I may try them with a reverse splitter at first, but I'm sure a proper combiner would be better.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *yardbird* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> uh... the 4228 comes apart.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The screen comes off REALLY easily by bending (or UNbending) a few tabs. And I would think it would fit through a hatch easily without the screen attached. Then you can just reattach the screen. Considering the results you're already getting though, the 4221 might be easier.



The attic opening is 20x28" with about 35" available on the diagnol. I've heard that some of the rivets can be drilled out on the 4228, but didn't know that the screen comes off. If the screen is one piece, I would still have a problem, if it is sectional, my prospects would be better.


A local electronics store (Fry's) has a bunch of 4228's on the shelf, but no 4221's. The box for the 4228 is huge and won't fit in my car. I would probably have to have it shipped.


The Winegard PR-8800 might be a better choice as it appears to be comparable or maybe something like the DB-4?


If channels 2-6 are going away, it probably doesn't make sense for me to consider a CM Crossfire or Advantage antenna, does it? These would be "fun" to install as I'd have to go between the rafters, etc. I once had a CM Quantum years ago when I was living in the San Diego area... that thing was a monster but worked pretty well (on the roof). Roof mounting is not an option for me now.


Thank you the suggestions.


----------



## yardbird

The CM4228 screen is in 2 halves. The "seam" runs vertically. If you've got anywhere CLOSE to 35" on the diagonal, it should pass through that hole easily. You shouldn't have to drill out any rivets. What kind of car? You could use the same trick to get it home. unbox it, take the reflector screen off, stick it in your car and then reinstall the screen up in the attic. All you'll need is a small pliers to bend and unbend the tabs. When I get home, I'll go up on the roof and see if the whole antenna can easily be separated into halves. I don't remember how the horizontal bars are connected to each half. I don't remember those being riveted, but I could be wrong.


----------



## Konrad2

> The Winegard PR-8800 might be a better choice as

> it appears to be comparable or maybe something like

> the DB-4?


The DB-4 is comparable to the Winegard PR-4400 and CM 4221. (4-bay)

The DB-8 is comparable to the Winegard PR-8800 and CM 4228. (8-bay)


If you have room inside the attic, I recommend going with an 8-bay.

An 8-bay gives you more gain and less multipath.


If you have a low pitch roof, measure the height available. If you

don't have enough height you might have to look at yagis instead.


> If channels 2-6 are going away


You would have to check the plans for your area.


> CM Crossfire or Advantage antenna, does it? These would be

> "fun" to install as I'd have to go between the rafters, etc.


If you need VHF-HI, the 8-bays might be enough. A VHF-HI yagi like

the Winegard YA-1713 is only 35 inches wide. A VHF-LO antenna

will be about twice as wide.


The YA-1713 also comes folded up and will fit through a hatch no problem.


----------



## Rick0725

ch 2-6 is not actually going away. there are about 40 stations in the US that have been assigned or elected to choose vhf ch 2-6. some stations are in the process of trying to win an assignment/change there mind in hi vhf or uhf before everything is said and done. this is still a work in progress..


an act of congress (not the fcc) passed legistation specifying the digial tv spectrum. it has been assumed by fcc wording in documents, by word of mouth, and interpretation, and not written in legislaion. it can only therefore be assumed that the fcc would like to see the stations move to hi band vhf or uhf since doing away with ch 2-6 is not written in legislation.


if you have a vhf assignment in your market, it is a good idea to determine what is going on before you make a decision.


dont ya think?


----------



## holl_ands

Out of the box, the rear screens on my CM-4228 are 39.5-in wide and 36-in high.


Once you remove the two rear screens (via unbending tabs), the bowtie elements

are 36-in wide and 30-in high.

Hence it "should" fit through an opening that is more than 30-in on the diagonal.

If not, you'll have to drill four (or worst case eight) rivets. [Located on same piece as bendable tabs.]


The 39x41x5.5-in box fits rear hatch of Volvo Stn Wagon, but NOT via rear passenger door....YMMV...


The fol. pictures are for my son's CM-4228. (The ruler is 36.25-in long.)

Note that HIS bowtie elements are about 37.5-in wide and 28-in high!!!!


Hmmm, appears that HIS bowties came bent closer together than mine.....

Betcha NEC SIM runs would show that mine is ever so slightly better

at high UHF freqs and his is ever so slightly better at lower UHF freqs.....


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info. So, channels 2-6 are going away? I was trying to figure out exactly which channels were being auctioned and could only confirm 52-69. Channels 2-6 are so far down the ladder it makes me wonder why they are there.



FYI: In ALL of Calif., Eureka CH3 is the ONLY DTV Channel Election in CH2-6 band.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> > I am looking at getting a larger antenna, such as a
> 
> > CM4221 (getting the 4228 in the attic would be a real
> 
> > chore),
> 
> 
> If you have room in the attic but the problem is getting
> 
> a 4228 through the hatch, consider the Winegard PR-8800.
> 
> Gain is a tad less than 4228, but much better than 4221
> 
> and has better multipath rejection. The PR-8800 comes
> 
> folded up, you could put it through a doggie door.



But the CM4228 is the only one that has significant gain in Hi-VHF band.


----------



## iaflyer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My advice would to be start by getting a better outdoor antenna with more gain rather than to try to boost the Silver Sensor. The Silver Sensor is a fine indoor UHF only antenna, but it is not really suitable for 30 miles with your color codes. Also, checking the FCC data, WJBK-DT Fox 2, currently on UHF 58, will switch to VHF 7 in February, 2009 after the analog shutdown. Oddly enough WXYZ-DT ABC 7 will stay on UHF 41. The Silver Sensor by itself will not get a VHF 7 station at that range.



Thanks for the suggestion - I was hoping to boost the Silver Sensor as it's the easiest option but 30 miles is far, I know. Also, the Silver Sensor is a bit of a kludgy solution outside. A windy day and it can get out of alignment. Interesting on the frequency switch for Fox 2 - thanks for that.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are you interested in trying to get Toledo or other digital stations? They are 40 to 50 miles in other directions and a broad pickup antenna may be able to get some of them. For your UHF stations, the Channel Master 4221 should easily get the Detroit stations and offers a shot at getting some of the other stations in Toledo & Lansing if you can aim it just right. But the future VHF 7 at 30 miles would be iffy for a CM 4221. Is there a size constraint for the antenna on your outside mount? Maybe a CM 4220 2 Bay or CM 4221 4 Bay combined with a dipole for VHF?



Toledo or others don't interest me a bunch - I'm happy with the Detroit stations at the moment, can't see what the others would provide (but what do I know).


As for size there isn't a constraint other than visual appeal. The house basically faces the antenna (within 10 degrees) - I was thinking some mount on the chimney - otherwise I think it would look a bit ugly attached to the side of the house (chimney side). Also - the house has vinyl siding over wood siding (1938 construction).


I would prefer the CM4220 for size - but the specs say "30 miles" - I'm right on the edge of that at 32 miles so I'm not sure. I have a clear view to the east (except for some trees), I'm on a hill of sorts (as much of a hill as you can get in Michigan) so it might work.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *iaflyer* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As for size there isn't a constraint other than visual appeal. The house basically faces the antenna (within 10 degrees) - I was thinking some mount on the chimney - otherwise I think it would look a bit ugly attached to the side of the house (chimney side). Also - the house has vinyl siding over wood siding (1938 construction).
> 
> 
> I would prefer the CM4220 for size - but the specs say "30 miles" - I'm right on the edge of that at 32 miles so I'm not sure. I have a clear view to the east (except for some trees), I'm on a hill of sorts (as much of a hill as you can get in Michigan) so it might work.



The CM 4220 2 bay is very similar to the Antennas Direct DB-2 (but cheaper). Look at the gain charts for UHF for a bunch of antennas here: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html . The DB-2 (line L) has around 2-3 dBi gain over the Silver Sensor (line I) while the CM 4221 4 Bay (line B) offers 5-7 dBi gain over the Silver Sensor. The CM 4220 may get you a stable lock on the local stations (and is made for outdoor use), but only way to find out is to try it. If the size, weight, and harder to hide looks of the CM 4221 is not a major problem, I would get the CM 4221. I have one in my attic and it performs very well (for my situation with stations in different directions and out to 43+ miles).


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Once you remove the two rear screens (via unbending tabs), the bowtie elements
> 
> are 36-in wide and 30-in high.
> 
> Hence it "should" fit through an opening that is more than 30-in on the diagonal.
> 
> If not, you'll have to drill four (or worst case eight) rivets. [Located on same piece as bendable tabs.]



Thank you for the pictures and the information! It looks like this will be the way to go then. The High-VHF response of the 4228 vs. others was interesting to find out as well. Even the 4221 suffers by comparison according to that chart.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


So, unless something changes with the 2-6 assignment, perhaps this is all I would need.


Sometimes I miss having an SUV...


----------



## PA_MainyYak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/0
> 
> Thanks for the info. So, channels 2-6 are going away? I was trying to figure out exactly which channels were being auctioned and could only confirm 52-69. Channels 2-6 are so far down the ladder it makes me wonder why they are there.
> 
> 
> I tried out analog VHF with the Silver Sensor and channels 2, 4 & 5 were predictably bad. However, some channels in the 7-13 range were halfway decent.
> 
> 
> I found some rabbit ears, which I will try out. I may try them with a reverse splitter at first, but I'm sure a proper combiner would be better.



Channels 2-6 are not going away; however, very few stations plan to use them post-transition. For now they remain part of the DTV core. In those markets where low VHF stations will operate, OTA viewers will need rabbit ears or VHF-UHF combo antennas. One example is Harrisbburg, PA, where one station will retain its ch 4 digital channel, while the other stations in the market are (and will remain) in the UHF band.


----------



## Konrad2

> Sometimes I miss having an SUV...


A roof rack works well for many things. Thule, Yakama, ...


----------



## Stillglade

I am just getting into the world of OTA HDTV. After reading this thread, it is surprisingly much more complicated that I thought it would be! I was hoping to get some advice from you gurus.


I have a tall 2 story house in Hemby Bridge NC (approx LL 35.116306, -80.622775). I have an HDTV upstairs and one downstairs. I temporarily obtained some bunny ears (Philips MANT510) and am able to receive a handful of channels with varying degrees of success. There are about 4 stations 305 degrees 35 miles away, and another 4 stations 335 degrees 12 miles away. The best comes in nearly always with just a little hiccup if someone stands in the wrong spot of the room. The worst only occasionally gets a signal for a second or two at a time. There is nothing really between my house and the antennas, but not quite line of sight I don't think (over 30 miles there is bound to be some tall trees or houses or something).


What is my best bet on an antenna? I assume that the angle is close enough that I could point a directional at the farther stations and it would pick up the closer ones as well. How would I set it up so both TVs can use the same antenna? I currently have cheap $8 basic analog cable that I would like to keep if possible along with the antenna; could they share the same coaxial house wiring?


Thanks for your input and help! If there is more information that would help, let me know. Here is the list of channels:


Station - Frequency - Channel - Direction - Distance

CBS - 23 - 3.1 - 305 - 36.1 miles

ABC - 34 - 9.1 - 335 - 11.4 miles

FOX - 27 - 18.1 - 334 - 11.9 miles

NBC - 22 - 36.1 - 304 - 34.7 miles

PBS - 11 - 42.1 - 346 - 12.2 miles

CW - 47 - 46.1 - 306 - 34.4 miles

MNT - 39 - 55.1 - 306 - 34.4 miles

UNC - 44 - 58.1 - 9 - 16.4 miles

IND - 50 - 64.1 - 335 - 11.4 miles


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Stillglade* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a tall 2 story house in Hemby Bridge NC (approx LL 35.116306, -80.622775).Thanks for your input and help!



A Channel Master 4221 or Winegard DB-4 aimed at about 320 plus a VHF only aimed at 346 added together with a VHF/UHF band splitter/Joiner should get all but UNC. You may be able to split it to two TV's without an amplifer.


You can't share the cable wiring.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Stillglade* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> II have a tall 2 story house in Hemby Bridge NC (approx LL 35.116306, -80.622775). I have an HDTV upstairs and one downstairs. I temporarily obtained some bunny ears (Philips MANT510) and am able to receive a handful of channels with varying degrees of success. There are about 4 stations 305 degrees 35 miles away, and another 4 stations 335 degrees 12 miles away.



I also vote for the Channel Master 4221 4 Bay bowtie mounted up in the attic or outside. The CM 4221 has a broad pickup pattern to the front, so it should be fine for stations 30 degrees apart. (see http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4221.html ). You have one digital station, WTVI-DT PBS 42 broadcasting on VHF 11, but it is 12.5 miles with a yellow color code. The CM 4221 is a UHF antenna, but has some modest gain for the very upper end of VHF, say 11 to 13. It is likely to get the WTVI-DT PBS station ok. If not, you can add a simple rabbit ear antenna with a UHF/VHF antenna combiner.


As for sharing co-axial cable, you can not share an OTA antenna with the signals coming from the cable TV company on the same co-axial cable. Broadcast TV and cable TV use many of the same frequencies. You will have to run a separate RG-6 co-axial line from the antenna to the TVs. Try it without a pre-amp first. 35 miles in your country is really too far to expect an indoor antenna to work near the TV. You need to get the antenna up in the attic or outdoors for increased height and to get it away from people walking around the antenna.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Out of the box, the rear screens on my CM-4228 are 39.5-in wide and 36-in high.
> 
> 
> Once you remove the two rear screens (via unbending tabs), the bowtie elements
> 
> are 36-in wide and 30-in high.
> 
> Hence it "should" fit through an opening that is more than 30-in on the diagonal.
> 
> If not, you'll have to drill four (or worst case eight) rivets. [Located on same piece as bendable tabs.]
> 
> 
> The 39x41x5.5-in box fits rear hatch of Volvo Stn Wagon, but NOT via rear passenger door....YMMV...



To my surprise, I was able to fit the box in the trunk of my car, at least width-wise. I had to tie down the trunk as it wouldn't close, but getting it out of the Fry's store was harder. The box is certainly unwieldy and navigating through narrow aisles when people aren't paying attention was a bunch of fun.


Everything after that wasn't bad at all. I did have to detach the screens and re-attach them, but it was easy to do. Thank you again for letting me know about that trick!


It's in the attic on a mast that I put up along one of the vertical rafters, which wasn't as straight as I thought. If I got it to work right, attached is an image of my installation.


How does it work? Very well in that spot and I'm very pleased with its performance. All the stations that I would get before are at 100% except for 1 at 99% and another at 87%. The two tough local stations to get are now coming in fine. I'm still using the CM3043 distribution amp. as it made a very big difference before I put the antenna into the attic. I think I will leave it in place since I'm driving 2 TV's.


One question I have is whether I should use a grounding wire. Since it's in the attic, I don't have to worry about the elements, but perhaps it would be a good idea if I can find anything nearby to ground it with.


Thanks again for helping make this possible!


----------



## holl_ands

There is no NEC requirement to use a grounding wire indoors.


Attic installations are tricky, trying to find a good line of sight to the towers with

a minimum of intervening "stuff"....and reflections from nailing plates, wires, etc....


If you have any more problems, it's worth it to try several different locations.


----------



## cylonsix

How reliable are rotators???

My "Magnavox M61415" stopped working today, stuck pointing north. The controller has power, I checked with a voltmeter. I have only have had it hooked-up 2 months. This was my 1st rotator.

Did I get a lemon???


Anyone recommend a rotator that can handle 5ft maste w/ a med sized antenna on top & that will last a few years!!


The 'Magnavox M61415' manuel said that 5 ft maste for my sized antenna was fine. Should I cut it down to 2.5 feet next time? It died today & it will be a week or 2 until I can get someone to take it down so I can see what the real problem is.


thanks for any help


----------



## videobruce

They use to be very reliable, but with all these Chineese imports who knows. The onbly rotor I ever used is Channel Master. Now that there are a dozen 'clones' out there and even Channel Master imports their model, I don't know how reliable they are.

I purchased the Eagle Aspen DiSEqC rotor, but haven't installed it yet (other projects are coming first). I'll have to see how well that holds up.


As far as that Magotbox version, it's probably as good or bad as any of the others. Take the antenna down and try the rotor inside as see what happens. It might be something simple.


----------



## videobruce

I think I would go with a no name import before I would ever consider that 'thing'. That had to be the worst designed control box ever made. I have seen those at many Hamfests and they just ususlly get tossed where as the CM design usually get bought (sometimes by me). I will admit they are no fun to 'rebuild' and I never took a Alliance apart, but the CM design have held up for me over the years (other than the grease drying out).


I'm really surprised you even mentioned those.


----------



## tyromark

Maybe a dumb idea, but I'm just thinking... As of 2/2009 the Cincinnati market will have only 2 VHF channels, transmitting from about 5 degrees apart on Channels 10 and 12. I've got a CM4228 on a rotator now which picks up broadcast Ch. 10 fine, but I just wondered: Would producing a monster single channel 11 antenna in the attic with about 16 feet of length and 1/2" pipe for elements combine well with a VHF/UHF combiner and pull in the hi-VHF channels from that direction for sure? If "more is better, too much is just right" affecting my thinking here? I'm also not web-savvy enough to locate some of those posts where folks made DIY non-weathproof antenna out of curtain rods, etc. Anyone point me to the sites where they would tell you the element length and spacing for a DIY job? Or is this doomed to fail? Thanks.


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tyromark* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Maybe a dumb idea, but I'm just thinking... As of 2/2009 the Cincinnati market will have only 2 VHF channels, transmitting from about 5 degrees apart on Channels 10 and 12. I've got a CM4228 on a rotator now which picks up broadcast Ch. 10 fine, but I just wondered: Would producing a monster single channel 11 antenna in the attic with about 16 feet of length and 1/2" pipe for elements combine well with a VHF/UHF combiner and pull in the hi-VHF channels from that direction for sure? If "more is better, too much is just right" affecting my thinking here? I'm also not web-savvy enough to locate some of those posts where folks made DIY non-weathproof antenna out of curtain rods, etc. Anyone point me to the sites where they would tell you the element length and spacing for a DIY job? Or is this doomed to fail? Thanks.




GO to above on page 194 post #5803 or just click here it will take you there
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...post10580435 read that post and read post #5807 and don't let Rick0725 scare you, I think he just jealous that my antenna works for me and his didn't










At http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9613 there is 38 pages long but I use the first one and made few mods and it works great for me. There is other desgins on that website, just go look though all of them. I did pick up a 1MW DT 51 that is 73 miles away with no problem also. I am also using Channel Master pre-amp 7777 in the setup. I am going to try the new Channel Master 4220 desgin someday and see how that one will works the bow is longer and wider V than DB-2 antenna.


Good luck on building your own DIY antenna.


-Willie


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tyromark* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> .. As of 2/2009 the Cincinnati market will have only 2 VHF channels, transmitting from about 5 degrees apart on Channels 10 and 12. .



These should work fine on both 10 and 12:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=Y5-7-13 
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/y10713.htm


----------



## holl_ands

Modern broadband TV antenna designs use computers to vary the element

lengths and spacings in order to search through a large number of "de-tuned"

antenna designs until they stumble across a "good enough" design that

more or less optimizes gain across the entire design bandwidth:
http://ic.arc.nasa.gov/people/jlohn/Papers/ices2001.pdf 


Hence, it would be difficult for you to build a multi-channel Yagi antenna.

The above recommendations are very good for $20-50....


============================

But, if you just must DIY, Single Channel Yagi info is found here:
http://www.skyscan.ca/Antennas.htm 
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/diy-yagi/ 
http://www.k7mem.150m.xxx/Electronic.../yagi_vhf.html 

[For some reason forum won't accept this webite. Replace "xxx" with "com"]

Note that Ham Radio boom designs are matched to 50-ohm transmitters....close enough???


However, in the VHF band, the bandwidth in a moderate to high gain Single Channel

Yagi may not even cover CH11, and the severe slope in frequency response

through CH10 and CH12 could cause problems:
http://www.cebik.com/vhf/scales.html 


============================

An LPDA (Log Periodic Dipole Array) would be a more feasible multi-channel DIY project.

It provides more or less constant gain across all channels, at the expense

of maximum gain on a single channel.


DIY LPDA info is found here:
http://www.wb0dgf.com/ 
http://www.physics.adelaide.edu.au/~...g-Periodic.pdf 
http://www.qrz.com/download/antennas/index.html 

The lowest and highest design frequencies for the LPDA should be about 20 percent

lower and higher than the desired reception frequencies.


See LPDA Spread Sheet Calculator below (from QRZ) for an example Hi-VHF Band design.

 

LOGPERIO.zip 8.1064453125k . file


----------



## holl_ands

Here is more info re DIY Folded Dipole....which becomes a Yagi with Reflector and (optional) Director:
http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html 


Note the "DIY" (search thread) subject has been discussed several times before:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...iy#post6313277


----------



## Caison

I have a problem that I'm sure has been addressed somewhere in this thread, but in the intrest of time I will ask again. I live in the Wilmington, NC area with the closest broadcast tower (ABC) about 7.3 miles away from my home and the furthest being about 16.8 miles away (NBC & PBS from the same tower). After discovering that I could recieve OTA HD I decided that I would give a set top antenna a shot. With the set top antenna I was able to pull in all of my local stations with good signal strength (60-70%) except for NBC. I was confused why I could recieve PBS, but not NBC because they are both brodcast from the same tower. I soon learned that PBS broadcasts from a higher elevation on the tower. After doing some reading I decided that I would give the Radio Shack U-75R outdoor antenna a shot (only $30). So I ran about 100' of RG6 up to the attic and attached the antenna to a mast high in the top of my attic. Wow, now I get NBC @ 85%, FOX @ 95%, and PBS at 100% with all of them being rock solid stable. Now I'm having trouble staying locked on ABC! The signal for ABC jumps around from 0-75+%. It's really annoying because the picture keeps pixelating. Since I'm only about 7.3 miles from their tower I think what I am experiencing is multipath. Does this sound like multipath? If so, is there any way around this or am I just going to have to decide which channel I want the most, ABC with the indoor antenna or NBC with the attic antenna? Do you think a non-yagi antenna like the Eagle Aspen DTV2BUHF two bay antenna would work better to reduce multipath, or is a yagi best in this situation? I really like the attic antenna setup because I don't have to look at the UHF loop in my living room. ANY HELP WILL BE GREATLY APPRECIATED!!! I'm almost ready to pull my hair out here. Thanks.


----------



## holl_ands

Try moving the antenna up and down on the mast and if that doesn't work, try different locations.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Caison* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a problem that I'm sure has been addressed somewhere in this thread, but in the intrest of time I will ask again. I live in the Wilmington, NC area with the closest broadcast tower (ABC) about 7.3 miles away from my home and the furthest being about 16.8 miles away (NBC & PBS from the same tower). After discovering that I could recieve OTA HD I decided that I would give a set top antenna a shot. With the set top antenna I was able to pull in all of my local stations with good signal strength (60-70%) except for NBC. I was confused why I could recieve PBS, but not NBC because they are both brodcast from the same tower. I soon learned that PBS broadcasts from a higher elevation on the tower. After doing some reading I decided that I would give the Radio Shack U-75R outdoor antenna a shot (only $30). So I ran about 100' of RG6 up to the attic and attached the antenna to a mast high in the top of my attic. Wow, now I get NBC @ 85%, FOX @ 95%, and PBS at 100% with all of them being rock solid stable. Now I'm having trouble staying locked on ABC! The signal for ABC jumps around from 0-75+%. It's really annoying because the picture keeps pixelating. Since I'm only about 7.3 miles from their tower I think what I am experiencing is multipath. Does this sound like multipath? If so, is there any way around this or am I just going to have to decide which channel I want the most, ABC with the indoor antenna or NBC with the attic antenna? Do you think a non-yagi antenna like the Eagle Aspen DTV2BUHF two bay antenna would work better to reduce multipath, or is a yagi best in this situation? I really like the attic antenna setup because I don't have to look at the UHF loop in my living room. ANY HELP WILL BE GREATLY APPRECIATED!!! I'm almost ready to pull my hair out here. Thanks.



Your zip code PLEASE!!!! We need to look your stations up by call letter (just ABC does not tell us very much of use). How far apart in azimuth are your ABC and NBC & PBS stations? The Radio Shack U-75R yagi is a directional antenna and is VERY touchy for finding the right aim. I had one and dumped it in favor of a Channel Master 4221 4 Bay because I wanted to get digital UHF stations over a wide spread in azimuth.


----------



## Caison




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Your zip code PLEASE!!!! We need to look your stations up by call letter (just ABC does not tell us very much of use). How far apart in azimuth are your ABC and NBC & PBS stations? The Radio Shack U-75R yagi is a directional antenna and is VERY touchy for finding the right aim. I had one and dumped it in favor of a Channel Master 4221 4 Bay because I wanted to get digital UHF stations over a wide spread in azimuth.



Sorry, I forgot to give that information. My zip code is 28479. Thanks for the help.


----------



## videobruce

Too bad their control box was so noisey.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Caison* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry, I forgot to give that information. My zip code is 28479. Thanks for the help.



The edited antennaweb results for your zip code for your local digital stations:


* yellow - uhf WECT-DT 6.1 NBC WILMINGTON NC 334° 16.8 44

* yellow - uhf WUNJ-DT 39.1 PBS WILMINGTON NC 334° 16.8 29

* yellow - uhf WWAY-DT 3.1 ABC WILMINGTON NC 284° 7.3 46

* yellow - uhf WSFX-DT 26.1 FOX WILMINGTON NC 56° 10.7 30

* red - uhf WPXU-DT 35.1 MNT JACKSONVILLE NC 60° 44.6 34


You have a 50 degree spread in azimuth between the WECT-DT NBC and WWAY-DT ABC. No wonder the very directional Radio Shack U-75R can't get them. The Fox station is probably coming in a weak sidelobe. Looking deeper at the antennaweb results, your local CBS station is WILM-LP 10 which is a low power analog only station which presumably won't go digital until 2009. Your nearest digital CBS station is WBTW-DT CBS 13 (DT=56) at ~ 74 miles away in Florence, SC. Do you have any interest in trying to get this station as it would require a deep fringe antenna up on the roof, but with no guarantee of success?


My recommendation that for your local stations, you get the Channel Master 4221 4 Bay bowtie. You will have to experiment with the aim, but it offers a good shot at getting all of your locals. It may also pick up the WPXU-DT My Network station in Jacksonville.


----------



## Caison




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The edited antennaweb results for your zip code for your local digital stations:
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf WECT-DT 6.1 NBC WILMINGTON NC 334° 16.8 44
> 
> * yellow - uhf WUNJ-DT 39.1 PBS WILMINGTON NC 334° 16.8 29
> 
> * yellow - uhf WWAY-DT 3.1 ABC WILMINGTON NC 284° 7.3 46
> 
> * yellow - uhf WSFX-DT 26.1 FOX WILMINGTON NC 56° 10.7 30
> 
> * red - uhf WPXU-DT 35.1 MNT JACKSONVILLE NC 60° 44.6 34
> 
> 
> You have a 50 degree spread in azimuth between the WECT-DT NBC and WWAY-DT ABC. No wonder the very directional Radio Shack U-75R can't get them. The Fox station is probably coming in a weak sidelobe. Looking deeper at the antennaweb results, your local CBS station is WILM-LP 10 which is a low power analog only station which presumably won't go digital until 2009. Your nearest digital CBS station is WBTW-DT CBS 13 (DT=56) at ~ 74 miles away in Florence, SC. Do you have any interest in trying to get this station as it would require a deep fringe antenna up on the roof, but with no guarantee of success?
> 
> 
> My recommendation that for your local stations, you get the Channel Master 4221 4 Bay bowtie. You will have to experiment with the aim, but it offers a good shot at getting all of your locals. It may also pick up the WPXU-DT My Network station in Jacksonville.



I'm not really all that intrested in recieving CBS because I'm don't want to install a rooftop antenna. ABC, NBC, and FOX are all I really want to watch anyways. Like I said before, the Radio Shack U-75R is pulling in all the stations (except CBS of course), I'm just trying to combat multipath from WWAY-DT ABC. Do you think a 2 or 4 bay bowtie antenna would eliminate the multipath? Once again, thanks for the help.


----------



## Nitewatchman

I haven't used a U110, but I do use an Alliance HD-73-1. It's great .... Heavier duty than would be needed for most TV antenna setups, but that won't hurt anything ... Note although actually currently on my TV antenna setup I'm using a very old CDE-44 -- A Potientiometer is bad in the alliance, so I swapped rotors and haven't had a chance to fix it yet ...


On HD73 Control box is quiet, and the dual speed is nice as well. For instance the slow speed regarding precise aiming for weak, distant stations. There is an odd quirk to a control circuit however as it came ... at least on my mine(which I bought new directly from them at Dayton Hamfest in Early 90's --- interestingly enough -- for less cost than it seems to be currently available) ... if the bulb that illuminates the azimuth indication meter burns out, you can't turn the rotor until it's replaced, LOL ...


CDE-44 works nicely as well, but I like the alliance for the dual speed control .....


----------



## videobruce

Those really aren't classified as TV rotors,

Different league.


----------



## Rick0725

just recently tried to tame a few multipath issues.


started with the eagle 2 bay...that didnt work...then a cm4221....that didnt work...then a u75 that didnt work. it was good better best as mentioned. ended up using a 43xg.


from my experiences, the bowties tame multipath poorly so would avoid them for now. what I would try first before you buy anything is see if you can get a stable lock on your problem station by experimenting with aim. do not worry about what happens to the good stations. you just want to see if an antenna will get a decent lock aimed in the right direction. this way you can narrow down some of the causes. then we will go from there. your issue may not be multipath but a poor signal. this will be a way to find out.


are you amplifying?


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Caison* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm not really all that intrested in recieving CBS because I'm don't want to install a rooftop antenna. ABC, NBC, and FOX are all I really want to watch anyways. Like I said before, the Radio Shack U-75R is pulling in all the stations (except CBS of course), I'm just trying to combat multipath from WWAY-DT ABC. Do you think a 2 or 4 bay bowtie antenna would eliminate the multipath? Once again, thanks for the help.



Your problem is probably not multipath. You are using a highly directional antenna while you have stations at 284°, 334°, and 56°. You need a multi-directional or omni-directional antenna. Did your set top antenna that you were originally using have a UHF loop antenna (this would be a loop about 7.5" in diameter)? The UHF loop has a very broad gain pattern (see http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/Loop.html ).


----------



## Caison




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Your problem is probably not multipath. You are using a highly directional antenna while you have stations at 284°, 334°, and 56°. You need a multi-directional or omni-directional antenna. Did your set top antenna that you were originally using have a UHF loop antenna (this would be a loop about 7.5" in diameter)? The UHF loop has a very broad gain pattern (see http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/Loop.html ).



The set top antenna that I was using was a non amplified UHF loop. When I used it in the living room I was able to stay locked on WWAY-DT with no drop out or pixelation and maintained about 65% signal strength. I took the UHF loop up to the attic and put it on the line that I ran for the U-75r and it drops out and pixelates the same way the U-75r does, but with lower reception strenghts.


In answer to the previous post, no I am not amplifying the signal. I didnt think that it was neccesary because most of my stations come in at 75+% including WWAY-DT when it grabs the signal.


----------



## sjv

I'm about to replace my Terk TV55 HD antenna thats mounted in my attic. I got good signal strength (95-98) but it "died" tonight during bad weather (nothing hit remotely close). I'm considering the CM 4220 for a replacement (attic mount). My station stastics are:



* yellow - uhf WDSU-DT 6.1 NBC NEW ORLEANS LA 207° 22.1 43

* yellow - uhf WGNO-DT 26.1 ABC NEW ORLEANS LA 209° 19.8 15

* yellow - uhf WLAE-DT 31 PBS NEW ORLEANS LA FCC Ext 209° 19.9 31

* yellow - vhf WYES-DT 12.1 PBS NEW ORLEANS LA 206° 21.6 11

* yellow - uhf WVUE-DT 8.1 FOX NEW ORLEANS LA 206° 21.6 29

* yellow - uhf WNOL-DT 38.1 CW NEW ORLEANS LA 209° 19.8 40

* red - uhf WUPL-DT 54.1 MNT SLIDELL LA 297° 8.0 24

* red - uhf WWL-DT 4.1 CBS NEW ORLEANS LA 213° 7.2 36

* red - uhf WPXL-DT 26.1 ION NEW ORLEANS LA 213° 25.8 50

* violet - uhf WHNO-DT 20.1 IND NEW ORLEANS LA 213° 25.8 21



All of the stations are 25.8 miles or less from me and are within 206 to 213 degrees, a 7 degree spread, except for WUPL-DT which we never watch. Aiming at 210 degrees gave me a strong signal with the Terk TV55 bafore it croaked.


Based on the above, would the CM4220 or CM4221 pick up WYES-DT 12.1 which has a VHF frequency assignment of channel 11? Also, what kind of performance should I expect from these antennas? Thanks for reply(s).


----------



## Rick0725

Reception Range cm4220

Channels 7 thru 13 - Up to 20 miles

Channels 14 thur 69 - Up to 30 miles


based on mfg's specs above (up to 20 miles for ch 7-13) the cm4220 would most likely be marginal/risky at your home.


I would therefore suggest something different in your case.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sjv* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm about to replace my Terk TV55 HD antenna thats mounted in my attic. I got good signal strength (95-98) but it "died" tonight during bad weather (nothing hit remotely close). I'm considering the CM 4220 for a replacement (attic mount). My station stastics are:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> All of the stations are 25.8 miles or less from me and are within 206 to 213 degrees, a 7 degree spread, except for WUPL-DT which we never watch. Aiming at 210 degrees gave me a strong signal with the Terk TV55 bafore it croaked.
> 
> 
> Based on the above, would the CM4220 pick up WYES-DT 12.1 which has a VHF frequency assignment of channel 11? Also, what kind of performance should I expect from this antenna? Thanks for reply(s).



WYES-DT PBS 12 is listed to be at 70.8 kW on VHF 11, so it is at a respectable power level for digital upper VHF. If you have room in the attic, I suggest you get the CM 4221 4 Bay bowtie instead. Has more gain than the CM 4220 and should bring the station on VHF 11, assuming no nearby obstructions. If you play with the aim of either CM antenna a bit by aiming it either south of the 209° to 213° group of stations to put the My Network station in the back lobe or north of the group to put it in the sidelobe, you can probably get that station as well (WUPL-DT has an authorized power of 1000 kW for UHF 24), even though it is not important to you. But you might as well as get all your local digital stations.


----------



## james_k_p




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sjv* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm about to replace my Terk TV55 HD antenna thats mounted in my attic. I got good signal strength (95-98) but it "died" tonight during bad weather (nothing hit remotely close). I'm considering the CM 4220 for a replacement (attic mount). My station stastics are:
> 
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf WDSU-DT 6.1 NBC NEW ORLEANS LA 207° 22.1 43
> 
> * yellow - uhf WGNO-DT 26.1 ABC NEW ORLEANS LA 209° 19.8 15
> 
> * yellow - uhf WLAE-DT 31 PBS NEW ORLEANS LA FCC Ext 209° 19.9 31
> 
> * yellow - vhf WYES-DT 12.1 PBS NEW ORLEANS LA 206° 21.6 11
> 
> * yellow - uhf WVUE-DT 8.1 FOX NEW ORLEANS LA 206° 21.6 29
> 
> * yellow - uhf WNOL-DT 38.1 CW NEW ORLEANS LA 209° 19.8 40
> 
> * red - uhf WUPL-DT 54.1 MNT SLIDELL LA 297° 8.0 24
> 
> * red - uhf WWL-DT 4.1 CBS NEW ORLEANS LA 213° 7.2 36
> 
> * red - uhf WPXL-DT 26.1 ION NEW ORLEANS LA 213° 25.8 50
> 
> * violet - uhf WHNO-DT 20.1 IND NEW ORLEANS LA 213° 25.8 21
> 
> 
> 
> All of the stations are 25.8 miles or less from me and are within 206 to 213 degrees, a 7 degree spread, except for WUPL-DT which we never watch. Aiming at 210 degrees gave me a strong signal with the Terk TV55 bafore it croaked.
> 
> 
> Based on the above, would the CM4220 pick up WYES-DT 12.1 which has a VHF frequency assignment of channel 11? Also, what kind of performance should I expect from this antenna? Thanks for
> 
> reply(s).



You will get everything with no problem in your location with a CM4220. WYES has a strong signal and you'll easily have 100%. I live in Huntwyck by the mall and get 100% on WYES. I don't have a CM4220, but I have a similiar outdoor that I bought from Circuit City.


----------



## Rick0725




> Quote:
> I don't have a CM4220, but I have a similiar outdoor that I bought from Circuit City.



can you share with us which antenna you have that is successful for you. it would be a good opportunity for the user in question.


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sjv* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm about to replace my Terk TV55 HD antenna thats mounted in my attic. I got good signal strength (95-98) but it "died" tonight during bad weather (nothing hit remotely close). I'm considering the CM 4220 for a replacement (attic mount). My station stastics are:
> 
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf WDSU-DT 6.1 NBC NEW ORLEANS LA 207° 22.1 43
> 
> * yellow - uhf WGNO-DT 26.1 ABC NEW ORLEANS LA 209° 19.8 15
> 
> * yellow - uhf WLAE-DT 31 PBS NEW ORLEANS LA FCC Ext 209° 19.9 31
> 
> * yellow - vhf WYES-DT 12.1 PBS NEW ORLEANS LA 206° 21.6 11
> 
> * yellow - uhf WVUE-DT 8.1 FOX NEW ORLEANS LA 206° 21.6 29
> 
> * yellow - uhf WNOL-DT 38.1 CW NEW ORLEANS LA 209° 19.8 40
> 
> * red - uhf WUPL-DT 54.1 MNT SLIDELL LA 297° 8.0 24
> 
> * red - uhf WWL-DT 4.1 CBS NEW ORLEANS LA 213° 7.2 36
> 
> * red - uhf WPXL-DT 26.1 ION NEW ORLEANS LA 213° 25.8 50
> 
> * violet - uhf WHNO-DT 20.1 IND NEW ORLEANS LA 213° 25.8 21
> 
> 
> 
> All of the stations are 25.8 miles or less from me and are within 206 to 213 degrees, a 7 degree spread, except for WUPL-DT which we never watch. Aiming at 210 degrees gave me a strong signal with the Terk TV55 bafore it croaked.
> 
> 
> Based on the above, would the CM4220 or CM4221 pick up WYES-DT 12.1 which has a VHF frequency assignment of channel 11? Also, what kind of performance should I expect from these antennas? Thanks for reply(s).




I have a Homebuilt DB-2 antenna and I can get Fox 47 on DT 11 with no problem that is 57 miles away. So go for it the CM 4220. I also have a PBS 10 on DT 8 that 43 miles away and lock on good with NO BREAK-UPs.


-Willie


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> can you share with us which antenna you have that is successful for you. it would be a good opportunity for the user in question.




Just look up at CC and I don't see XG-91 antenna so it won't be that one. Bummer


----------



## wayne1935

I'm currently using a RS VU-90 XR antenna for HDTV and FM and there is about 8' of coax before the split point. The first TV/FM location is at the split point and there is another 8' to the second split.


I was splitting the signal with a Monster 3 way splitter with outputs to a TV and FM in one location and the third output to another location. This third output was then split again with a 2 way splitter to a HDTV PCI card and an FM tuner. This caused a some channel loss and drop outs; so I replaced the Monster 3 way with a 2 way to just the HDTV and HDTV PCI card and the HDTV all our OTA channels are fairly steady on both.


All the signals - TV and FM come from the same direction and are about 30 miles away.


I would like to use an outdoor antenna for the FM; so what would be the preferred option:


1. A second dedicated FM antenna which I used to use before we went HDTV. I can't do much with the antenna mounting; so I may not have sufficient space on the pole for antenna spacing.


2. Some kind of pre-amp (Hi gain or low gain).


3. A distribution amp.


TIA,


Wayne


----------



## Rick0725

the vu90 has a huge gain dip on fm below 95 mhz so a separate fm antenna is a good idea.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


adding a separate fm antenna is best. there are several options. the fm-6 and hd6065p are good performers. It is best not to amplify fm. the hd 6065p is pretty nice. of course there are bigger and better choices.

http://www.starkelectronic.com/fm.htm 


instead of using a standard splitter use a winegard ca 8800 fm/tv splitter combiner. the losses are much less. the ca 8800 has only *.4 db insertion loss* instead of 3.5 db of a standard 2 way splitter.

http://www.summitsource.com/winegard...00-p-5703.html 


you can at the same time take the opportunity to replace the uv90 antenna if you want to take the opportunity to upgrade . if all your channels are uhf, the 91xg would stack nicely with the fm antenna. if you desire uhf/vhf suggest the winegard hd7082p or hd7084p (if you have reception challenges...next size up) for 30 miles. the hd7082p and hd7084p work well with fm. the smaller 7080p not good.

http://www.summitsource.com/winegard...le-p-4563.html


----------



## sjv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sjv* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm about to replace my Terk TV55 HD antenna thats mounted in my attic. I got good signal strength (95-98) but it "died" tonight during bad weather (nothing hit remotely close). I'm considering the CM 4220 for a replacement (attic mount). My station stastics are:
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf WDSU-DT 6.1 NBC NEW ORLEANS LA 207° 22.1 43
> 
> * yellow - uhf WGNO-DT 26.1 ABC NEW ORLEANS LA 209° 19.8 15
> 
> * yellow - uhf WLAE-DT 31 PBS NEW ORLEANS LA FCC Ext 209° 19.9 31
> 
> * yellow - vhf WYES-DT 12.1 PBS NEW ORLEANS LA 206° 21.6 11
> 
> * yellow - uhf WVUE-DT 8.1 FOX NEW ORLEANS LA 206° 21.6 29
> 
> * yellow - uhf WNOL-DT 38.1 CW NEW ORLEANS LA 209° 19.8 40
> 
> * red - uhf WUPL-DT 54.1 MNT SLIDELL LA 297° 8.0 24
> 
> * red - uhf WWL-DT 4.1 CBS NEW ORLEANS LA 213° 7.2 36
> 
> * red - uhf WPXL-DT 26.1 ION NEW ORLEANS LA 213° 25.8 50
> 
> * violet - uhf WHNO-DT 20.1 IND NEW ORLEANS LA 213° 25.8 21
> 
> 
> All of the stations are 25.8 miles or less from me and are within 206 to 213 degrees, a 7 degree spread, except for WUPL-DT which we never watch. Aiming at 210 degrees gave me a strong signal with the Terk TV55 bafore it croaked.
> 
> 
> Based on the above, would the CM4220 or CM4221 pick up WYES-DT 12.1 which has a VHF frequency assignment of channel 11? Also, what kind of performance should I expect from these antennas? Thanks for reply(s).



Just wanted to update. I purchased a CM4221 mainly based on what I read here......*THANKS*! Last night, I got it installed in the attic where the Terk was for three years. With no amp, in the Oak Harbor area of south Slidell (very few tall trees), I'm getting a consistant *98* on my signal meter on *all* N.O. HD stations currently on the air. With the Terk, I used to get Biloxi and one Baton Rouge station but no more......but thats OK! I didn't watch them anyway.







Needless to say, I'm thrilled the problem was the dead Terk and not my brand new 70"XBR2! Now we can throw away the Sony box thats taking up half of my garage.


----------



## Rick0725

curious


how is ch 11 being received with the cm4221 and how does signal strength compare with the other uhf channels.


please give examples.


----------



## sjv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> curious
> 
> 
> how is ch 11 being received with the cm4221 and how does signal strength compare with the other uhf channels.
> 
> 
> please give examples.



Channel 11 (WYES-HD 12.1) is also coming in with a consistant signal 98 (as are all the rest)


Examples:


Physical Channel: 11

Frequency KHz: 201000

Modulation: 8VSB

Status: LOCK

Errors: 0

SNR (db): 32

AGC (%): 34


I'm 21.6 miles from the Ch.11 transmitter and I have the antenna aimed @ 210 to cover the spread (206-213). The CM4221 and CM4228 are known to give good results on the upper VHF digital band as well as UHF.


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sjv* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Channel 11 (WYES-HD 12.1) is also coming in with a consistant signal 98 (as are all the rest)
> 
> 
> Examples:
> 
> 
> Physical Channel: 11
> 
> Frequency KHz: 201000
> 
> Modulation: 8VSB
> 
> Status: LOCK
> 
> Errors: 0
> 
> SNR (db): 32
> 
> AGC (%): 34
> 
> 
> I'm 21.6 miles from the Ch.11 transmitter and I have the antenna aimed @ 210 to cover the spread (206-213). The CM4221 and CM4228 are known to give good results on the upper VHF band as well as UHF.




With WYES at 70.8 Kw You could of gotten away with a 4220. As I can pickup DT-8 at 25 Kw at 43 miles away and DT-11 at 15 Kw at 57 miles away with a homebuilt DB-2.


----------



## sjv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WillieAntenna* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> With WYES at 70.8 Kw You could of gotten away with a 4220. As I can pickup DT-8 at 25 Kw at 43 miles away and DT-11 at 15 Kw at 57 miles away with a homebuilt DB-2.



Why get away with $5 difference in price between the 4220 and 4221.







I didn't want to take the chance. I've got all the locals pegged @98 signal strength............good enough for me. Thanks.


----------



## wayne1935




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> the vu90 has a huge gain dip on fm below 95 mhz so a separate fm antenna is a good idea.
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
> 
> 
> adding a separate fm antenna is best. there are several options. the fm-6 and hd6065p are good performers. It is best not to amplify fm. the hd 6065p is pretty nice. of course there are bigger and better choices.
> 
> http://www.starkelectronic.com/fm.htm
> 
> 
> instead of using a standard splitter use a winegard ca 8800 fm/tv splitter combiner. the losses are much less. the ca 8800 has only *.4 db insertion loss* instead of 3.5 db of a standard 2 way splitter.
> 
> http://www.summitsource.com/winegard...00-p-5703.html
> 
> 
> you can at the same time take the opportunity to replace the uv90 antenna if you want to take the opportunity to upgrade . if all your channels are uhf, the 91xg would stack nicely with the fm antenna. if you desire uhf/vhf suggest the winegard hd7082p or hd7084p (if you have reception challenges...next size up) for 30 miles. the hd7082p and hd7084p work well with fm. the smaller 7080p not good.
> 
> http://www.summitsource.com/winegard...le-p-4563.html



Rich,


Thanx for the links. I'm not even considering replacing our antenna until analog cut-off and channel shifting is sorted out. The FM situation is interesting in that my antenna, according to one of the links, has the greatest drop off in the higher FM frequencies but I'm interested in the lower frequencies, especially the public broadcasting frequencies.


I think I will try one of the Winegard splitters though before I opt for any other upgrades - amplifier/pre-amplifier or different antenna configuration.


Our local OTA is currently split evenly between VHF and UHF and it is my understaning that there isn't going to be much difference when analog shuts off. The VHF/UHF line up may be somewhat different but there will still be VHF and UHF broadcasters.


Wayne


----------



## giantcycle

Sorry for the newbie question, but can cable internet service and the signal from my OTA antenna coexist on the same RG-6 going throughout my house? (Ordinary splitters to combine and then split out between the computer and TV area?) I understand that regular cable TV and OTA can't share the same cable.


----------



## holl_ands

Not a good idea.


Whatever signals remain on the cable coax (probably most digital QAM channels

plus the cable modem freq) will leak out of your antenna (an FCC violation).


Even if they employ "tier filters" to pass ONLY the cable modem frequency,

the residual noise on the cable coax could still degrade your OTA reception....


----------



## Tobias Ziegler

Anyone else have problems with CM Jointennas being bad out of the box? I bought three, two work fine, one doesn't pass it's tuned channel through its bandpass filter without knocking its level down a lot. Are there any alternatives to these devices? If they're going to be faulty or mistuned (after waiting a month to arrive), I'd like to consider other options... preferably something I can tune myself.


----------



## sjv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> There are losses using jointennas...........



I have a CM4221......works great! What's a jointenna?


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sjv* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a CM4221......works great! What's a jointenna?



It's a two-input combiner with a band pass filter on one input and a band stop filter on the other.


The typical use for it is that if you have two antennas, one pointed at several TV transmitters, and the other pointed in another direction at a lone transmitter, you can combine the two antenna signals without the two antennas' signals interferring with each other. (It's rare that you can successfully take two antennas and connect their signals with a simple combiner.)


You order the Jointenna tuned for a specific channel number, the channel of the lone transmitter. You then hook that lone antenna's signal into the bandpass filter input, and ONLY that one channel's signal is passed on to the internal combiner. You hook the other antenna's signal into the band stop filter, and every signal from that antenna EXCEPT the specified channel is passed on to the internal combiner.


If the Jointenna is working properly, the signals that are intentionally passed through from either input are not attenuated very much. In my case, a non-specified channel's signal coming into the band stop input dropped from a reading of 70 on my TV's meter to 67....a nominal amount. The specified channel's signal coming into the band pass filter dropped from a reading of 73 to a value in the low 40s, making it useless on its own. I scrounged up an amp to give a preliminary boost to the specified channel's antenna, and that got the signal to come through at about a value of 57 on my TV, but that's a kludge that shouldn't be needed. I have two other Jointennas, and their specified channels tend to pass signal through with only a drop of about 3, like I'd expect.


So the unit in question is either outright faulty, or (I'm guessing more likely) not tuned properly. And that's what [email protected]@@@@ me off , er, uh, bothers me. When you order a Jointenna, you have to wait several weeks for it to be custom tuned. If they're not going to tune it any better than this, I'd rather do it myself.


Open question to all: Have any of you tuned a Jointenna yourself? Is it worth trying on my own, or are the adjustments too quirky to try?


----------



## sjv

Tobias, thanks for that comprehensive explanation. I had no clue as to what a jointenna was. I'm now informed. Thanks again and I hope you get your problem worked out.


----------



## HuskerMike

OK, quick question. I just installed a Antennas Direct DB-8 in the attic and have it split, one 25 feet to a LCD in the kitchen and the other feed 75 feet to a Pioneer in the basement. My stations are all over the place:


yellow - vhf WOWT 6 NBC OMAHA NE 63° 7.0 6

* yellow - uhf WOWT-DT 6.1 NBC OMAHA NE 63° 7.0 22

yellow - vhf KMTV 3 CBS OMAHA NE 65° 6.9 3

* yellow - uhf KMTV-DT 3.1 CBS OMAHA NE 65° 6.9 45

yellow - vhf KETV 7 ABC OMAHA NE 64° 7.0 7

* yellow - uhf KETV-DT 7.1 ABC OMAHA NE 64° 7.0 20

red - vhf KUON 12 PBS LINCOLN NE 235° 18.3 12

* red - uhf KUON-DT 40.1 PBS LINCOLN NE 235° 18.3 40

red - uhf KXVO 15 CW OMAHA NE 191° 14.4 15

red - uhf KYNE 26 PBS OMAHA NE 93° 7.5 26

* red - uhf KYNE-DT 26.1 PBS OMAHA NE 93° 7.5 17

red - uhf KPTM 42 FOX OMAHA NE 191° 14.4 42

blue - uhf KBIN 32 PBS COUNCIL BLUFFS IA 90° 16.5 32


My best alignment is pointing it west-southwest, that gets the closer CBS/ABC/NBC stations through the back, but enough pointed at the FOX and CW stations to get those. PBS is very weak though. On the downstairs Pioneer, most stations have signal strengths in the 60's, though occasionally dropping out to the 50's and showing pixelation. PBS really doesn't come through in HD down there. I'm thinking I need a pre-amp coming out of the splitter to the basement. (I can probably live without it on the LCD.) I tried a Magnavox pre-amp from Menards and it seemed to make things worse.


Any recommendations? I don't think I need much of a boost, though I wouldn't mind picking up a distant CBS and ABC signal that's 60 miles west. Occasionally I get a very snowy analog picture from the CBS affiliate on VHF, so I know I'm not COMPLETELY out of range.


----------



## coyote1

I'm in zip 95618, about 22 miles LOS from most of the stations of interest. I recently picked up a Samsung 260F HD STB and connected it to my rooftop antenna (similar to the winegard-hd7010 or Channel Master 3016)


This antenna gave quite good VHF/UHF NTSC reception. For HD OTA I get 80-100% for most stations, however both Fox and PBS (both lower power than the rest) tend to come in ok after dark, but have dropouts with 0-50% signal strength during daylight.


Question: do I need a better antenna (suggestions?), or would a preamp help more? I did take the single splitter out for now and this improved Fox/PBS (generally up to 80% most of the time, but still some 1-4 second drop outs now and then, but much less frequently). Another point might be wind/trees; there are several redwoods (ca 30' high) about 30' from the antenna, but they're kinda thin and you can generally see thru them.


My cable length is about 75' to the STB (25' to the splitter)


thanks for any suggestions


----------



## videobruce

HuskerMike; Not knowing exactly where you are, I used this point (1/2 mile from KYNE);

http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/maps...onf=mapnew.con 


to provide this;

http://www.2150.com/broadcast/defaul...=Show+Stations 


I don't see the need of any amp with stations less than 18 miles away (unless you want the ones further out). Especially with your CBS & ABC affilates' output as high as it is.


----------



## m_vanmeter

how old is your coax and is it RG6 or better ?


for giggles, try a straight run of coax, replace the splitter with a double female "F" barrel connector, and see if the two stations improve during the day. A splitter means a 3db loss (about 50%) in signal to each TV and can seriously degrade the received signal for the two lower power stations


----------



## SWHouston

HuskerMike,


Gees, that spread on your Tower Locations, looks a LOT like it does for me here in Houston!

First of all, I found your Antenna at:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB8_HD_Antenna.html 


Now, IF you bit into the harp/BS of what they call multidirectional, you shouldn't have!

You got a directional Antenna, even though they say otherwise.


Bow Tie Antennas may have a bit broader view than do the Yagi types, but never the less, you only got about 20-30* to use, and there are NO TWO locations that you have provided, which can be viewed with one setting. Here's a fat free list of your Tower Locations, regrouped according to Azimuth.


WOWT___ 6___ NBC 63° 7.0

WOWT-DT 6.1_ NBC 63° 7.0

KETV____ 7___ ABC 64° 7.0

KETV-DT_ 7.1_ ABC 64° 7.0

KMTV____ 3__ CBS 65° 6.9

KMTV-DT 3.1_ CBS 65° 6.9


KBIN____ 32__ PBS 90° 16.5

KYNE____ 26__ PBS 93° 7.5

KYNE-DT_ 26.1 PBS 93° 7.5


KXVO____ 15_ CW 191° 14.4

KPTM____ 42_ FOX 191° 14.4


KUON____ 12__ PBS 235° 18.3

KUON-DT_ 40.1 PBS 235° 18.3


Furthermore, given that the DB-8 has a mesh reflector as most BT's do, it inhibits reception from the back side of the Antenna, intentionally! So, even though your locations are at 63 & 235* (almost directly across from each other) I don't think you're going to be able to receive both of those locations, with one setting on the Antenna.


I agree with videobruce about the Amp, IF you got the Cable in right.

Hopefully, you used the RG-6 instead of the RG-56, it's a lot more capable wire, and, hopefully you didn't route that 75' run, near any electrical wires, and your system is Grounded well.


Additionally, the type of Splitter you used (anything but Rad Shack's) should have a Grounding Lug on it, where you can single wire off to a Cold Water Pipe in the Attic.


So, it looks like you are stuck with one setting at a time, or, get a Motor/Rotator, or, an A/B Switch with a second Antenna, and possibly have to do an Auto Channel Search each time you change from A to B.

Sorry about that.


Just a tip, IF you have a small Portable TV, take it up to the Attic, use a short cable to connect it to the Antenna, and do a single channel setting (adjusting for best reception), on each channel you have. Make notes of the exact Azimuth, with a Compass, and compare what you get, to the actual Azimuth listed above.


This procedure will identify where you may have signals which are being reflected from surrounding structures, and allow you to redirect the Antenna to reduce that.


And another thing, go to:
http://www.tvfool.com 

and set your Range/Distance for 70 to 90 miles. Just check out what's out there, that the DB-8 can get. Given how close you are to your towers, you might have selected a smaller antenna, but, more is usually better !? This should provide about the same chart as the second URL that videobruce gave you. But, havng a second refference, may be helpful to you.

Best of luck!


Have a good Day !


----------



## coyote1




> Quote:
> how old is your coax and is it RG6 or better ?



it's less than a year old, and it's RG6...all pretty new after my roof was done 18 months ago. My previous antenna got trashed, and this one was around so I put it up -- I think it's an old radio shack that was sitting in the attic (it hasn't been exposed much).



> Quote:
> for giggles, try a straight run of coax, replace the splitter with a double female "F" barrel connector,




I did do this (that's what I was trying to say in the 3rd paragraph); it did get better, but still needs some more improvement. I'm trying to figure out whether a preamp or larger antenna would work better (or maybe something else?)


thanks!


----------



## nybbler

You're clearly right on the margin with those stations; if removing the splitter helps, either a pre-amp or a larger antenna will help. The pre-amp is probably easier to install.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *coyote1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm in zip 95618, about 22 miles LOS from most of the stations of interest. I recently picked up a Samsung 260F HD STB and connected it to my rooftop antenna (similar to the winegard-hd7010 or Channel Master 3016)
> 
> 
> This antenna gave quite good VHF/UHF NTSC reception. For HD OTA I get 80-100% for most stations, however both Fox and PBS (both lower power than the rest) tend to come in ok after dark, but have dropouts with 0-50% signal strength during daylight.
> 
> 
> Question: do I need a better antenna (suggestions?), or would a preamp help more? I did take the single splitter out for now and this improved Fox/PBS (generally up to 80% most of the time, but still some 1-4 second drop outs now and then, but much less frequently). Another point might be wind/trees; there are several redwoods (ca 30' high) about 30' from the antenna, but they're kinda thin and you can generally see thru them.
> 
> 
> My cable length is about 75' to the STB (25' to the splitter)
> 
> 
> thanks for any suggestions



A mast mounted (even if only at the bottom) Preamp will provide a big improvement,

and no worries about overload from nearby stations.


----------



## jjnemoiii

Looks like all of your dtv stations will stay in UHF after analog shutdown in 2009. also, according to FCC map you are well within the coverage area of Fox - KTXL, ( http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...DT1018506.html ), and Pbs - CAVIE ( http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DS658432.html ). I would swap your antenna for a Channel Master 4228, cost $50-60 plus ship. Save the added (small) cost of electricity powering amp 24/7.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jjnemoiii* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Looks like all of your dtv stations will stay in UHF after analog shutdown in 2009. also, according to FCC map you are well within the coverage area of Fox - KTXL,



If you are responding to the zip code 95618 query, his stations are all not on UHF right now. He has KNTV-DT NBC 11 on VHF 12. There is also KVIE-DT PBS 6 on UHF 53 which is currently slated to switch to VHF 6 in 2009. The CM 4228 is a good choice for the KNTV-DT NBC station, but not if he wants to get KVIE-DT PBS in 2009. coyote1 needs to stick with a full VHF/UHF coverage antenna setup. A Winegard or Channel Master pre-amp is easier than putting up a new antenna, but it may be that the old Radio Shack antenna is not very good for UHF.


coyote1, do you know the model number of the Radio Shack antenna or can you match it approximately to one of the current Radio Shack antennas shown on their website?


----------



## coyote1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> coyote1, do you know the model number of the Radio Shack antenna or can you match it approximately to one of the current Radio Shack antennas shown on their website?



There are only three outside antennas on the Radio Shack site; they all are better than what I've got. Basically there are 4 pairs of VHF angled elements, with 6 elements (3 up and 3 down) on the vertical *V* , plus 6 or so on the front. Total is 18-20 elements or so. The entire antenna is 5-6 feet long (front to back). It is definately a low end unit. It looks similar to the winegard-hd7010 or Channel Master 3016.


----------



## coyote1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> the antennas in the class you are using generally are underperformers. their weaknesses stick out when reception conditions are not ideal.
> 
> 
> To improve the reception situation
> 
> 
> -install a winegard hdp269 preamp to start and see how you make out. the hdp 269 preamp is the suggested amp for the suburbs.
> 
> 
> -if the situation is still not to your liking, then replace your current antenna with the winegard hd7082p. The size smaller (hd7080P) is not suggested in your case since it performs poorly on ch6 which you will need moving forward after the transition.
> 
> 
> you would use the hdp269 preamp on the antenna replacement (if you decide to do so later) so you should not be concerned. I would not purchase a more powerful amp than the hdp 269 because if you end up replacing the current antenna with one of higher performance the higher gain amp may become an issue.



Thanks for the information and suggestions - I had more or less figured the antenna was an underperformer, but didn't know where to go from here. I've ordered the hdp269 preamp and it sounds like that will do the trick!


----------



## ChocoLab

Oh man, it's been a while since I read this thread...


But does anyone have any thoughts on a long-range UHF antenna? I'm no rookie -- been chasing this stuff for years now. But those situations were more for a home application with a weak local station. I didn't have much room, so I had to use a bowtie-style antenna.


Now I have more room at a different location and I'd like to try a distant station (for fun, I'm not counting on this to work under all atmospheric conditions). I'd love to hear people's opinions on:


CM 4248/3023 Yagi

Winegard PR-9032

Antennacraft MXU-59


I own the Winegard PR-8800 and CM 4228 already.


On other sites I've read the "long range solution" claiming that the 8-bay bowties are definitely better for long-range reception. But in my experience, comparing the Radio Shack $24.95 UHF yagi and the Antennas Direct 42XG to the bowties, the 8-bays don't seem to work any better. Suffice to say, I don't see the clear superiority of the 4228 that so many claim. (And I think the wind loads of those are too great for my location anyway.)


And some other tests I've seen, like the atechfabrication one, don't seem to support that the 8-bays are superior anyway.


So does anyone have any thoughts on the yagis? Honestly, I'm tempted to try that Antennacraft MXU59 for some reason, but it's claimed gain isn't that great. (Which isn't always a negative -- I find the exaggerated gains from Antennas Direct a real turnoff.)


I don't know why, but my impression of CM isn't the best. Probably for no good reason, but maybe because I am kind of underwhelmed with the CM 4228.


The logical choice might be the Winegard 9032, as they claim high gain for it and I've had good luck with the PR-8800 and a Winegard FM yagi I have. But I thought I'd ask here for opinions.


Thanks, everyone.


----------



## Rick0725

I prefer the 91xg over all the antennas you have mentioned.


I have screwed around with many of the antennas you mentioned the last 25 years or so and am content with the 91xg.


I tried the cm 4228 recently but was not pleased and it tamed the multipath poorly at my home. if you tried the cm4228 and pr8800 I would not consider the db8.


the yagis you listed are in the second tier performance wise.


I like the 91xg alot...I can honestly say I am rather content and have no need to upgrade again. and that's good.


----------



## ChocoLab




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I prefer the 91xg over all the antennas you have mentioned.
> 
> 
> I have screwed around with many of the antennas you mentioned the last 25 years or so and am content with the 91xg.
> 
> 
> I tried the cm 4228 recently but was not pleased and it tamed the multipath poorly at my home. if you tried the cm4228 and pr8800 I would not consider the db8.
> 
> 
> the yagis you listed are in the second tier performance wise.
> 
> 
> I like the 91xg alot...I can honestly say I am rather content and have no need to upgrade again. and that's good.



Thanks for the input, Rick.


I'd almost forgotten about the XG91. I guess I hadn't considered it just because it's so much more expensive than the other ones that are around $50-60 or so shipped. I also was skeptical if it was truly superior to the other yagis like the 4248 or the 9032, or just a more high-tech looking design with a bigger price tag.


But if it's really that much better, it would work well considering I need a lighter antenna with a lower wind load where I live.


Also, I was almost considering ganging two of the cheaper yagis since two of them might cost about what one of the 91s would, but this would certainly be simpler to do. Anyone have any thoughts on if two 9032s would be much better than one 91XG?


----------



## Jeff D

Man, 200 pages and I'm not wanting to look for what I need and I suspect it has been covered many times.... so can anyone point me to or answer this question?


I need to use two directional antennas to pickup all my local OTA channels one or two are not in line with the others. So, I want to use a two antenna setup and that's where I'm concerned.


I know of the problems with ghosting and such when dealing with analog broadcasts, but not sure how this applies with digital. I know there are rules (but I'll need to find those again) on placement, cable length to joiner, etc. but this is all new to me.


I'll be using a CM 8 bow tie (can't remember the model) and a CM stealth, CM 7777 (may be 7775) preamp. I know there's filters and blocks that I can get if I've got problems with that setup. But, I'm holding off on getting those until I know what's needed.


Anyone got advice on pulling this off?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jeff D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I need to use two directional antennas to pickup all my local OTA channels one or two are not in line with the others. So, I want to use a two antenna setup and that's where I'm concerned.
> 
> 
> Anyone got advice on pulling this off?



It depends on the channel number and directions. A list of the channels that you want to receive or your zip code for antennaweb would be a start.


----------



## Jeff D




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It depends on the channel number and directions. A list of the channels that you want to receive or your zip code for antennaweb would be a start.




Ok, that's odd. Since moving here I haven't looked at antennaweb and your prompting got me to check it out.


Strange thing is that everything I wasn (excpet for PBS) appears it should be in the same direction, one channel is 1° off, but that shouldn't make a huge difference...

Code:


Code:


* red - uhf     WRAL-DT   5.1  CBS  RALEIGH NC    162° 21 53 
* red - uhf     WRAZ-DT   50.1 FOX  RALEIGH NC    162° 21 49 
* red - uhf     WRDC-DT   28.1 MNT  DURHAM NC     162° 21 27 
* red - uhf     WTVD-DT   11.1 ABC  DURHAM NC     163° 21 52 
* red - uhf     WLFL-DT   22.1 CW   RALEIGH NC    162° 21 57 
* red - uhf     WNCN-DT   17.1 NBC  GOLDSBORO NC  162° 21 55 
* violet - uhf  WUVC-DT   40.1 UNI  FAYETTEVI NC  216° 34 38 
* violet - uhf  WRPX-DT   47.1 ION  ROCKY MNT NC  78°  30 15 
* violet - uhf  WUNC-DT   4.1  PBS  CHAPEL HI NC  266° 26 59

I guess the more interesting thing may be my signal strengths...
Code:


Code:


94%   50.1 FOX  RALEIGH NC    162° 21 49 
93%   28.1 MNT  DURHAM NC     162° 21 27 
54%   11.1 ABC  DURHAM NC     163° 21 52


----------



## GutterPoet

Hey Jeff D... Where exactly are you? I'm between Raleigh and Wilmington... I just ordered a bunch o' crap to install a 91xg. I really wanted a Blake JBX 21WB but couldn't find one in the states and Blake wanted 150% of purchase price to ship it!


----------



## texasbrit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jeff D* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Ok, that's odd. Since moving here I haven't looked at antennaweb and your prompting got me to check it out.
> 
> 
> Strange thing is that everything I wasn (excpet for PBS) appears it should be in the same direction, one channel is 1° off, but that shouldn't make a huge difference...
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> * red - uhf     WRAL-DT   5.1  CBS  RALEIGH NC    162° 21 53
> * red - uhf     WRAZ-DT   50.1 FOX  RALEIGH NC    162° 21 49
> * red - uhf     WRDC-DT   28.1 MNT  DURHAM NC     162° 21 27
> * red - uhf     WTVD-DT   11.1 ABC  DURHAM NC     163° 21 52
> * red - uhf     WLFL-DT   22.1 CW   RALEIGH NC    162° 21 57
> * red - uhf     WNCN-DT   17.1 NBC  GOLDSBORO NC  162° 21 55
> * violet - uhf  WUVC-DT   40.1 UNI  FAYETTEVI NC  216° 34 38
> * violet - uhf  WRPX-DT   47.1 ION  ROCKY MNT NC  78°  30 15
> * violet - uhf  WUNC-DT   4.1  PBS  CHAPEL HI NC  266° 26 59
> 
> I guess the more interesting thing may be my signal strengths...
> Code:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 94%   50.1 FOX  RALEIGH NC    162° 21 49
> 93%   28.1 MNT  DURHAM NC     162° 21 27
> 54%   11.1 ABC  DURHAM NC     163° 21 52


----------



## Don F.




ChocoLab said:


> Oh man, it's been a while since I read this thread...
> 
> 
> But does anyone have any thoughts on a long-range UHF antenna?
> 
> 
> So does anyone have any thoughts on the yagis?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I use the cm 4248 with the cm 7777 amp. The stations I watch are between 56 and 72 miles away in the Carolinas, and with 180 degree rotation I can get two Atlanta stations on a daily basis, 80 miles away. All of the Carolina station transmitters are on mountain tops, and I also have good elevation, with line of site to all but one. The Atlanta reception is just being in the right spot. I keep having ideas of a BIG antenna to receive all of the Atlanta stations. Of course weather and time of year are always a player. I am also open to suggestions. Happy viewing.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ChocoLab* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts on if two 9032s would be much better than one 91XG?



Better, yes, assuming it's set up correctly. Stacking is a fair amount of fiddling and takes some time to get the best out of the setup though.


If you're going to the trouble, I'd say stack two XG91's.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don F.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I am also open to suggestions. Happy viewing.



Here you go:


----------



## cpcat

Or, if you're really feeling crazy.


----------



## sjv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Or, if you're really feeling crazy.



WOW!







Ground control to Major Tom!


----------



## Mloot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Or, if you're really feeling crazy.



I can't imagine the headache and hassle that getting that kind of setup exactly tuned must have caused. I've had enough trouble just getting my single antenna placed exactly right so all my channels come in without losing one or two due to small variations in placement.


----------



## MAX HD

Or,if you need high gain and extreme directivity,try this....

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...TowerAntennas/


----------



## Don F.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here you go:




Thanks for the idea, but those were really ugly sites, and sights too. I may gang another 4248 someday, but nothing more, maybe. I hope to wait until Feb. 09 to see what comes out of the wash before deciding what to use. I may need a high vhf or a low vhf, or both.

If those sites were yours, they really didn't look that bad. I'll bet the wife was out of town when those things went up.


OOPS, I took a look at your stuff, sorry about the ugly comment. I live pretty much in the sticks myself, but how far away are the stations you are trying to pull in?


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It's a two-input combiner with a band pass filter on one input and a band stop filter on the other.
> 
> 
> The typical use for it is that if you have two antennas, one pointed at several TV transmitters, and the other pointed in another direction at a lone transmitter, you can combine the two antenna signals without the two antennas' signals interferring with each other. (It's rare that you can successfully take two antennas and connect their signals with a simple combiner.)
> 
> 
> You order the Jointenna tuned for a specific channel number, the channel of the lone transmitter. You then hook that lone antenna's signal into the bandpass filter input, and ONLY that one channel's signal is passed on to the internal combiner. You hook the other antenna's signal into the band stop filter, and every signal from that antenna EXCEPT the specified channel is passed on to the internal combiner.
> 
> 
> If the Jointenna is working properly, the signals that are intentionally passed through from either input are not attenuated very much. In my case, a non-specified channel's signal coming into the band stop input dropped from a reading of 70 on my TV's meter to 67....a nominal amount. The specified channel's signal coming into the band pass filter dropped from a reading of 73 to a value in the low 40s, making it useless on its own. I scrounged up an amp to give a preliminary boost to the specified channel's antenna, and that got the signal to come through at about a value of 57 on my TV, but that's a kludge that shouldn't be needed. I have two other Jointennas, and their specified channels tend to pass signal through with only a drop of about 3, like I'd expect.
> 
> 
> So the unit in question is either outright faulty, or (I'm guessing more likely) not tuned properly. And that's what [email protected]@@@@ me off , er, uh, bothers me. When you order a Jointenna, you have to wait several weeks for it to be custom tuned. If they're not going to tune it any better than this, I'd rather do it myself.
> 
> 
> Open question to all: Have any of you tuned a Jointenna yourself? Is it worth trying on my own, or are the adjustments too quirky to try?



If you are using a Jointenna with a Pre-amp, where do you put in the amplifier, before the Jointenna, or after?


----------



## Don F.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> don
> 
> 
> the 91xg is a better performer than the cm4248 by a few db across most of the uhf band.
> 
> 
> you may be better off replacing the cm4248 now. it is only about $90 delivered from solid signal.
> 
> 
> once it is installed you may not need to stack two.



Thanks Rick. The 91xg has been a temptation, it shows almost 7 db more gain than the 4248, that's a lot. I would like to hear from someone who uses ONE (1). I am assuming by your location, you would not need that much gain.


----------



## Keenan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don F.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks Rick. The 91xg has been a temptation, it shows almost 7 db more gain than the 4248, that's a lot. I would like to hear from someone who uses ONE (1). I am assuming by your location, you would not need that much gain.



I installed a 91XG about 8-10 mos ago and couldn't be happier with it. I'm about 65-75 miles from Sutro Tower in SF, with lots of hills in between and no line of sight. The 91XG brings in more channels and is stabler than anything else I've tried which included the CM 4228 and CM4248.


To qualify the above I should say I'm also using a Research Communications pre-amp, the combination of the 2 have given me stable reception on some channels where I would struggle with constant dropouts previously.

http://www.researchcomms.com/hdtv.html 

HDTV Low Noise Amplifiers and Preamplifiers, Preamps, NF 0.4 dB - Research Communications Ltd UK


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don F.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the idea, but those were really ugly sites, and sights too.
> 
> OOPS, I took a look at your stuff, sorry about the ugly comment. I live pretty much in the sticks myself, but how far away are the stations you are trying to pull in?



Greg's setup is alot prettier.










I'm between 60-140 miles away. My primary stations are in Knoxville about 65 miles to the south.


----------



## jspENC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *texasbrit* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Remember also that several of your stations will be moving their transmission frequencies in 2009 when analog goes away. Most of them are just moving from one UHF channel to another but WTVD is moving back to channel 11 in VHF-hi. Since it sounds like you have a CM4228, this is just about the only UHF antenna with any sort of VHF-hi performance and so you may be lucky and receive WTVD OK when it moves channels. Otherwise you will need to add a VHF-hi antenna, and couple it to the output of the CM4228 via the CM7777.



I live 45 miles from WNCT channel 10/ 9.1-9.2 and use a UHF 4221 with VHF/UHF amp and have no problems picking up the VHF with it pointed in just about any direction. With the UHF frequencies however, I find I have to be just about right on with the aim.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paulstefano* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If you are using a Jointenna with a Pre-amp, where do you put in the amplifier, before the Jointenna, or after?



I put a preamp at every antenna, so they're upstream of the jointennas. Yes, it's more expensive than a single amp after all the combiners, but I wanna amplify the signals before line loss and devices attenuate them into the noise floor (never to be heard from again).


You might get away a single amp in many situations, but this is becoming more of a hobby than a necessity for me, so the more toys, the better !


----------



## Mloot

I just have a quick question. I have a 91xg and a VHF/UHF combo antenna tied together with a CM 7777 pre-amp. I know that if you are combining identical antennas you are supposed to use identical cable lengths from the antennas to the joiner, but am I supposed to do the same for my situation? Currently, the cable from my 91xg to the pre-amp is about twice the length of the one from the combo antenna to the 7777. Can this cause reception problems? I am currently having issues with one channel and I am trying to determine if it is being caused by multipath or some other problem.


----------



## greywolf

Are you using the 91xg for VHF and the combo for VHF? If so, make sure the 7777's switch is set for VHF on one input and UHF on the other as marked. If you are using the two antennas for UHF channels from different directions, that causes multipath issues that may be addressed by connecting them with a jointenna tuned for one station on the secondary antenna. If you are trying to make a stacked antenna system which is the only scenario requiring equal length leads, identical antennas are required.


Also, if any station is closer than 20-30 miles away depending on strength, you could be getting preamp overload.


----------



## Don F.




Code:


QUOTE=Rick0725] I also use the 91xg at my home and am pleased with the performance.


Keenan


I placed an order today for the 91XG, and the Winegard YA 1713. The combo will be aimed toward Atlanta, with a cm 7777 in line.

Thanks for the info on the XG, I should know the results within a couple weeks.


----------



## paulstefano

If I were to tie together 2 CM 4221 antennas with a splitter (understading the need for indentical cable) would that antenna function similarly to the 4228? Will there be a gain over the 4221?


----------



## holl_ands

Not really...the CM-4228 uses a low-loss quarter-wave feed structure vice lossy combiner.


----------



## Mloot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *greywolf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are you using the 91xg for VHF and the combo for VHF? If so, make sure the 7777's switch is set for VHF on one input and UHF on the other as marked. If you are using the two antennas for UHF channels from different directions, that causes multipath issues that may be addressed by connecting them with a jointenna tuned for one station on the secondary antenna. If you are trying to make a stacked antenna system which is the only scenario requiring equal length leads, identical antennas are required.
> 
> 
> Also, if any station is closer than 20-30 miles away depending on strength, you could be getting preamp overload.



Yes, I am using the combo for VHF only. I am about 36 miles from the transmitters. Thank you for eliminating the cable length as one cause of my problems with the one channel I am having trouble with.


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Not really...the CM-4228 uses a low-loss quarter-wave feed structure vice lossy combiner.



I should clarify.


I bought a 4221, but I don't think it's enough antenna for me. I am just short of pulling in what I need. I was thinking of purchasing another to combine, to get close to the effect of the 4228, without spending another $80. Plus, I'm using the 4221 in my attic, and I'm not sure I could fit the 4228 through the door.


Is this nuts?


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paulstefano* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> I bought a 4221, but I don't think it's enough antenna for me. I am just short of pulling in what I need. I was thinking of purchasing another to combine, to get close to the effect of the 4228, without spending another $80. Plus, I'm using the 4221 in my attic, and I'm not sure I could fit the 4228 through the door.
> 
> 
> Is this nuts?



If your antenna is on the threshold of working/not working, you might consider its location. It's not always enough for your antenna to be pointed in the right direction. It's also a matter of where it is located. Something simple as moving it a few feet (or even inches) can make a difference. In my case, an antenna located in my garage's attic pointed through the house works better than the same antenna located in the house's attic. It's not magic, but it is a science of subtleties.


----------



## nybbler

Connecting two 4221s together as you describe should work. You won't get the additional VHF-hi gain of the real 4228, but in general you should get additional gain.


Note the Antennas Direct DB8 works exactly like this; it's two DB4s with a combiner.


If you've got a long coax run out of your attic you might want to consider a preamp instead of or in addition to the antenna.


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Connecting two 4221s together as you describe should work. You won't get the additional VHF-hi gain of the real 4228, but in general you should get additional gain.
> 
> 
> Note the Antennas Direct DB8 works exactly like this; it's two DB4s with a combiner.
> 
> 
> If you've got a long coax run out of your attic you might want to consider a preamp instead of or in addition to the antenna.



I have a preamp installed already. It helps tremendously, but I'm on the fringe of the signal. I pull in the analog, clearly, but the digital is not there.


thanks,


paul


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paulstefano* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I should clarify.
> 
> 
> I bought a 4221, but I don't think it's enough antenna for me. I am just short of pulling in what I need. I was thinking of purchasing another to combine, to get close to the effect of the 4228, without spending another $80. Plus, I'm using the 4221 in my attic, and I'm not sure I could fit the 4228 through the door.
> 
> 
> Is this nuts?



Here is how to fit CM-4228 through a small attic access hatch:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...s#post10612061 

And is only known UHF-only antenna with significant hi-VHF band gain.


Sure, you could combine two CM-4221's with a simple splitter/combiner...

just won't be as good as CM-4228....and very poor for VHF.

Combining gain depends on careful matching of gain and phase,

so make sure antennas are securely aligned in the same plane.


Which Preamp? And can you provide location, say to nearest cross streets?


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here is how to fit CM-4228 through a small attic access hatch:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...s#post10612061
> 
> And is only known UHF-only antenna with significant hi-VHF band gain.
> 
> 
> Sure, you could combine two CM-4221's with a simple splitter/combiner...
> 
> just won't be as good as CM-4228....and very poor for VHF.
> 
> Combining gain depends on careful matching of gain and phase,
> 
> so make sure antennas are securely aligned in the same plane.
> 
> 
> Which Preamp? And can you provide location, say to nearest cross streets?



I'm at 21093. Nearest cross St. is Seminary Ave and Joppa Road


I'm using the Winegard HDP-269 pre-amp


----------



## holl_ands

GoogleEarth and Yahoo Maps don't show those streets crossing anywhere....


I see where W. Joppa Rd crosses I83/I695 and runs into Falls Road,

which then goes 1/2-mile further North to W. Seminary Ave.


Am I close??? Can you get me a little closer???

Distance from the 200-ft high hill towards the North makes a difference...


LAT/LONG (rounded to three decimals) is also good....


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyone else have problems with CM Jointennas being bad out of the box? I bought three, two work fine, one doesn't pass it's tuned channel through its bandpass filter without knocking its level down a lot. Are there any alternatives to these devices? If they're going to be faulty or mistuned (after waiting a month to arrive), I'd like to consider other options... preferably something I can tune myself.



I've never known of a Jointenna being mistuned or bad out of the box, and I've bought a lot of them.


It's been several years since I bench tested a bunch of them using a white noise generator and a spectrum analyzer, but as I recall, the insertion loss on the single channel input was typically a dB or two, whereas the full, out of band rejection on that port was around 20 dB in the UHF band. Incredibly, the rejection was only about 5 dB on the two, non-tunable VHF lowband Jointennas I tested.


Losses incurred through any passive device cannot be measured by the signal quality percentage meters that are incorporated into receivers. These numbers are derived through the application of mystery algorithms that rely heavily on the amount of forward bit error correction taking place. If you use a Jointenna as a bandpass filter on a weak signal in a market that also has some very strong signals, often the displayed signal strength percentage will actually go up, especially on receivers with early generation tuners, because it will reduce the overload that beats up the weaker signal in the tuner. I recently was able to increase the displayed signal strength of some weak signals that I was feeding into a Radio Shack Accurian receiver by 15% to 20% by individually bandpass filtering them.


If you post your map co-ordinates and tell us what you are using for antennas, maybe we can figure out why certain channel couplings may be difficult in your situation.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I put a preamp at every antenna, so they're upstream of the jointennas. Yes, it's more expensive than a single amp after all the combiners, but I wanna amplify the signals before line loss and devices attenuate them into the noise floor (never to be heard from again).



Generally, a very bad idea, and believe me, I've experimented at more of this than any of you ever will. You will invariably degrade the weak signal more by the intermodulation distortion developed in the preamp than you could ever degrade it by moving it a dB or so closer to the thermal noise floor by preamplifying it.


Those published "maximum input level" figures that preamp manufacturers furnish, even when accurate for their application, are the maximum level of equal strength inputs, such that they will not excessively degrade any other equal strength channels. But a preamp receiving a few relatively strong signals that might be 10 dB or more below that maximum inpout level will still wreak havoc on desired signals that commonly 30 or more dB weaker than the stronger ones.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *acesea* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...I work for a residential developer and we have a few new building coming up in the Chicago downtown area (South Loop, specifically Roosevelt & S. Michigan.). One 20 story and one 10 story building. I've been approached by numerous local cable providers trying to get us to subscribe. Would deploying an hd antenna on the roof be a viable alternative to offering free high quality channels to the buildings residents?
> 
> I am willing to spend more time studying the art and science behind it, would I be able to follow through the deployment of the cabling and antennas myself or is it in my best interest to get a pro to do it? Any idea what the cost might be associated with this?.



I just stumbled across this post while looking up something else.


1. No developer will ever have the expertise to develop an MATV headend (antenna array and procesing) in house. If you want to include this amenity in your buildings, you need someone local to become your "antenna guy" and to develop something affordable that can be adapted to each situation.


2. As far as wiring is concerned, you should always pay for your own "home run" wiring from the cable closets to each unit. If you take free wiring from a cable company, it becomes cost prohibitive for any units to ever obtain TV signal any other way.


3. You should run two home run lines to each unit. Coax costs less than ten cents per foot. By having two home runs to each unit, any resident will be able to also receive signal from a second source, be it your master antenna system, DBS satellite (DirecTV or DISH, for example) or even a second cable company.


I've only done one Chicago satellite headend installation (N Michigan Ave., ~30 story building) and while I didn't install any off-air antennas there, I did eyeball the off-air reception situation, and while their roof had line-of-sight to both towers, there would still have been the likelihood of strong multipath reflections bounding off taller buildings that would have to be ameliorated by a headend designer/installer who knew how to deal with them.


----------



## AntAltMike

The future has arrived.










http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm 


Antennacraft channel 7-69 antenna for $29.95.


Based on its physical appearance, it probably develops around 9dB of gain at most UHF frequencies, and maybe 4-5dB of VHF highband gain, but perhaps more importantly, gain across the VHF channel will be much flatter than it is with a Channel Master 4228.


And it is always considered to be better to have the mast behind the UHF dipole, as this antenna does, rather than in front of it, but I don't know how much difference that actually makes.


----------



## cpcat

Nice to see a high band vhf/uhf combo on this side of the pond.


I guess we'll have to wait a little longer for the 7-51 tuned models.


----------



## texasbrit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The future has arrived.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm
> 
> 
> Antennacraft channel 7-69 antenna for $29.95.
> 
> 
> Based on its physical appearance, it probably develops around 9dB of gain at most UHF frequencies, and maybe 4-5dB of VHF highband gain, but perhaps more importantly, gain across the VHF channel will be much flatter than it is with a Channel Master 4228.
> 
> 
> And it is always considered to be better to have the mast behind the UHF dipole, as this antenna does, rather than in front of it, but I don't know how much difference that actually makes.



I wondered if/when we would see antennas like this. For everyone except those with UHF only, and the unfortunate few who will still have to put up with vhf-lo after the digital transition in 2009, this is a great idea.


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> GoogleEarth and Yahoo Maps don't show those streets crossing anywhere....
> 
> 
> I see where W. Joppa Rd crosses I83/I695 and runs into Falls Road,
> 
> which then goes 1/2-mile further North to W. Seminary Ave.
> 
> 
> Am I close??? Can you get me a little closer???
> 
> Distance from the 200-ft high hill towards the North makes a difference...
> 
> 
> LAT/LONG (rounded to three decimals) is also good....



I'm right at the spot where 695 and I-83 intersect. In fact, the road is in my backyard.


----------



## holl_ands

No Gain & Beamwidth specs (only "range") on antennacraft website:
http://www.antennacraft.net/HBU22.htm 


It's hard to tell from tiny photo, but UHF section seems "similar" to W-G PR-9018:
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/Pr-9018.pdf 

which claims 13-14 dBd gain at low and mid-band UHF.


Since the Hi-VHF section is probably a 3 (or 4?) element "*LPDA*",

above gain seems optimistic.

PS: In most combo antennas, the folded dipole is the active element

for the forward UHF section and a feed structure continues to the rear

for the VHF *LPDA* section.


Fracarro (Italy) 4E512F is 4-element, Band 3 (Hi-VHF, 174-230 MHz) *YAGI*

with 2-3 dBd (4-5 dBi) gain.

You can download Fracarro and Lacey's Catalog from www.laceys.tv (Aussie) website....

PS: Check gain for 4-Bay & 2-element Yagis to verify whether they use dBd or dBi (usually).


Funke (Netherlands) 4-element, Hi-VHF *YAGI* claims 3-4 dBd (5-6 dBi) gain:
http://www.funke.nl/library/120_0420..._790500471.pdf 


An *LPDA* is usually less efficient than a *YAGI*....

Hence HBU-22 gain is probably closer to 3 dBd for VHF....esp. with UHF section perturbation.


I look forward to seeing some meaningful on-air comparisons to CM-4228.

I think CM-4228 will equal if not outperform HBU-22 in Hi-VHF and for sure in UHF.


================================

Here is the A2610 combo from Dipol (Poland), which uses a corner reflector *YAGI*

to improve the gain of the rear VHF section, resulting in 4-5 dBd Hi-VHF gain:
http://www.dipol.com.pl/sx/en/catalo...ital_A2610.htm 

Surely Hi-VHF gain for (*LPDA*) HBU-22 is somewhat less....


===============================

FYI: Fracarro also makes several *LPDA* that cover both Hi-VHF Band 3 and UHF,

using a long COMMON dual-boom feed structure with small UHF elements

at the front and longer Hi-VHF elements towards the back....

Fracarro LP345F gain specs claim 7 dBd (9 dBi) for both Hi-VHF and UHF bands.


Ditto specs for LPDA from Funke (Netherlands):
http://www.funke.nl/library/235_1566...en%20instr.pdf 


Dipol (Poland) makes a similar *LPDA*, claiming 6 dBd for Hi-VHF and

12 dBd for UHF (dBd = dBi - 2.15 dB):
http://www.dipol.com.pl/sx/en/catalo...2-65_A4015.htm 

PS: Frequencies help to identify "Band 3"...but in this case, ya gotta check

the country's channel conversion chart....in Poland Hi-VHF is CH6-12.

It's 8.52 Euros (before VAT)....plus (mostly) shipping....


=============================

Televes (Spain) added some extended elements to the UHF DAT-45,

claiming 6.3 dBd (8.5 dBi) Hi-VHF Gain:
http://www.televes.com/ingles/produc...ha.asp?COD=229 
http://www.televes.com/ingles/produc...as.asp?COD=229 

This is probably MAX gain, esp. given Televes overly optimistic spec practice....


----------



## holl_ands

Wouldn't want to leave out the funky Hi-VHF/UHF Combos from Funke (Netherlands):
http://www.funke.nl/library/285_0390..._790500004.pdf 
http://www.funke.nl/library/270_1757..._790501757.pdf 
http://www.funke.nl/library/280_1785..._790501785.pdf 
http://www.funke.nl/library/280_1785..._790501785.pdf 


Be sure to at least look at this one:
http://www.funke.nl/library/280_1787..._790501787.pdf 

Look....up in the sky.....it's a bird....it's a plane....no, it's a Funke.....


Maybe we'll see more Hi-VHF/UHF combo antennas in U.S. as we approach Feb2009....

PS: Funke (like most of the world) uses dBi, so subtract 2.15 dB to convert to dBd.


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paulstefano* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm right at the spot where 695 and I-83 intersect. In fact, the road is in my backyard.



Here's my situation, maybe you can help. For the folks from the Washinton/Balitmore thread, sorry for the repeat.


Anyway, from my location, I'm trying to pick up WPMT, a FOX station in York, PA. I moved my 4221 to a pole over my roof, following the "Higher is always better" advice. It's now about 40 feet in the air.


I still can't get the digital signal on 47. I can get analog on 43, really well, but I think there is interference. Can somebody confirm what I am seeing?


On analog 43, I get a VERY clear signal, no jumping or skipping, but there is a fuzzy grain to the picture. If I get close, or put it on my 42 inch plasma, it looks like an Impressionist painting you're too close to. Is this interference? I have a Jointenna on the way, because at 4 miles from the Baltimore Towers, with WBFF broadcasting at 46, I think that may be an issue.


Also, I can pull in channel 49, WGCB, which is at 6.4 degrees according to tvfool.com. WPMT (my target) is at 3.9 degrees. WGCB is 33 miles away, as opposed to 42 miles from WPMT. This makes me think I may need more gain. With that little difference in the azimuth, I should have a good shot with a higher gain antenna, no?


thanks,


paul


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paulstefano* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyway, from my location, I'm trying to pick up WPMT, a FOX station in York, PA. I moved my 4221 to a pole over my roof, following the "Higher is always better" advice. It's now about 40 feet in the air.
> 
> 
> I still can't get the digital signal on 47. I can get analog on 43, really well, but I think there is interference. Can somebody confirm what I am seeing?
> 
> 
> On analog 43, I get a VERY clear signal, no jumping or skipping, but there is a fuzzy grain to the picture.



I have been trying to help Paul on the Washington-Baltimore thread and via private messages. Paul, if I may, here are the analog and digital stations in the region to help the experts get a better understanding of your possible interference issues with getting WPMT-DT 43 (DT=47) at some 40 miles to his north.


DT 42 - WMPT-DT MPT 22 in Annapolis

DT 43 - WPXW-DT Ion/Pax 66 in Manassas, VA (90 kW and well south of him)

TV 43 - WPMT Fox in in York/Harrisburg, PA

DT 44 - WWPB-DT MPT 31 in Hagerstown, MD (long ways off)

TV 45 - WBFF Fox 45 in Baltimore (~ 4 miles away)

DT 46 - WBFF-DT Fox 45 in Baltimore (~ 4 miles away at 550 kW)

DT 47 - WPMT-DT Fox 43 in York/Harrisburg, PA (40 miles to the north)

DT 48 - WRC-DT NBC 4 in DC (~ 42 miles to the south)


The issue with WPMT-DT on UHF 47 is possibly adjacent channel interference due to the close distance to WBFF-DT on UHF 46. I have suggested to Paul that he put up a metal mesh screen behind the antenna as an experiment just to see if that helps him get a temporary lock on WPMT-DT. Paul, what do you get on the signal meter when you tune to digital channel 47 - if your ATSC tuner allows it? Perhaps you should borrow a 5th gen Samsung DTB-H260F which is ATSC only so you can manually tune to UHF 47 and see whether you get anything on the signal meter. I have also strongly suggested you take out the pre-amp entirely and see what you can get without it. Have you tried that?


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It's hard to tell from tiny photo, but UHF section seems "similar" to W-G PR-9018:...



The PR-9018 has two more reflector and two more director elements. I derived my 9dB estimate from the specs for the UHF section of the Winegard PR-5456. 


I was guessing that the middle VHF element was a dipole, with a reflector behind it and a director ahead, but again, the picture is just too small to see for sure.


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have been trying to help Paul on the Washington-Baltimore thread and via private messages. Paul, if I may, here are the analog and digital stations in the region to help the experts get a better understanding of your possible interference issues with getting WPMT-DT 43 (DT=47) at some 40 miles to his north.
> 
> 
> DT 42 - WMPT-DT MPT 22 in Annapolis
> 
> DT 43 - WPXW-DT Ion/Pax 66 in Manassas, VA (90 kW and well south of him)
> 
> TV 43 - WPMT Fox in in York/Harrisburg, PA
> 
> DT 44 - WWPB-DT MPT 31 in Hagerstown, MD (long ways off)
> 
> TV 45 - WBFF Fox 45 in Baltimore (~ 4 miles away)
> 
> DT 46 - WBFF-DT Fox 45 in Baltimore (~ 4 miles away at 550 kW)
> 
> DT 47 - WPMT-DT Fox 43 in York/Harrisburg, PA (40 miles to the north)
> 
> DT 48 - WRC-DT NBC 4 in DC (~ 42 miles to the south)
> 
> 
> The issue with WPMT-DT on UHF 47 is possibly adjacent channel interference due to the close distance to WBFF-DT on UHF 46. I have suggested to Paul that he put up a metal mesh screen behind the antenna as an experiment just to see if that helps him get a temporary lock on WPMT-DT. Paul, what do you get on the signal meter when you tune to digital channel 47 - if your ATSC tuner allows it? Perhaps you should borrow a 5th gen Samsung DTB-H260F which is ATSC only so you can manually tune to UHF 47 and see whether you get anything on the signal meter. I have also strongly suggested you take out the pre-amp entirely and see what you can get without it. Have you tried that?



On my Directv box (HR20), I get nothing most of the time on 47, but an occasional blip at 25 percent. So, I must be aiming right, correct?


As for the Amp. I have not pulled it out. Let me ask a question, as I am still a bit of a newbie. The amp has 2 pieces. One I put on the mast, the other (the power injector) I have near the receiver connected to the downlead. If I wanted to take the amp out of the circuit, do I need to remove the Mast mounted piece as well as the power injector?


When I took just the power injector out of the circuit, I got no difference in my digital reception, but a complete loss of analog 43.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paulstefano* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Here's my situation, maybe you can help.
> 
> 
> Anyway, from my location, I'm trying to pick up WPMT, a FOX station in York, PA. I moved my 4221 to a pole over my roof, following the "Higher is always better" advice. It's now about 40 feet in the air.
> 
> 
> paul



You have about 4 factors preventing reception of York, PA.


1. Weak signal

2. Strong and close locals

3. Inability for any multiple channel preamp to work with close locals

4. The possible need for a larger antenna


The first thing that I'd try is a single channel 47 filter between the 4221 and the HDP-269 preamp. Of course, once you do that, you'll need a second antenna for everything else. Ideally, you need an adjacent channel filter, but they are expensive. You can try a cheaper filter if you like, but it may not work. Even a pricey adjacent channel filter might not be enough without more antenna gain.


http://www.tinlee.com/BandPass_Matv_Catv.htm#CF7:%20Semi-Adjacent%20Bandpass%20(any%20channel%205-800%20MHz)
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=SS4805 
http://www.cefilter.com/products/dis...dID=57&CatID=3 
http://www.microwavefilter.com/bandpass.htm 


I looked at 39.4226 and -76.6706 on tvfool. If those numbers are exact, I would not try too much more or spend much money. If not, please put an X on your house and repost it.
http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=...ad27&layer=DRG


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You have about 4 factors preventing reception of York, PA.
> 
> 
> 1. Weak signal
> 
> 2. Strong and close locals
> 
> 3. Inability for any multiple channel preamp to work with close locals
> 
> 4. The possible need for a larger antenna
> 
> 
> The first thing that I'd try is a single channel 47 filter between the 4221 and the HDP-269 preamp. Of course, once you do that, you'll need a second antenna for everything else. Ideally, you need an adjacent channel filter, but they are expensive. You can try a cheaper filter if you like, but it may not work. Even a pricey adjacent channel filter might not be enough without more antenna gain.
> 
> 
> http://www.tinlee.com/BandPass_Matv_Catv.htm#CF7:%20Semi-Adjacent%20Bandpass%20(any%20channel%205-800%20MHz)
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=SS4805
> http://www.cefilter.com/products/dis...dID=57&CatID=3
> http://www.microwavefilter.com/bandpass.htm
> 
> 
> I looked at 39.4226 and -76.6706 on tvfool. If those numbers are exact, I would not try too much more or spend much money. If not, please put an X on your house and repost it.
> http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=...ad27&layer=DRG



I'm a little east of there. I looked at TV Fool, and they show WPMT as Grey with an antenna height of 39 Ft or less. Red with 40 Ft. or more. I am at 40 feet now.


As for the filter, I have a CM Jointenna ordered for channel 47. I only care about that one channel, as I have locals on Directv in HD.


When I get the Jointenna, should I put it before the amp? Does that mean before the Mast mounted part too?


Also, is it worth upgrading to a CM 4228 before the jointenna comes, or is there a shot my 4221 will pull in the channel with the Jointenna?


----------



## AntAltMike

I wouldn't spend any money for the 4228 before the filter arrives. You may get this whole thing working on-the-cheap with what you have already bought.


What does TV fool say the relative signal strengths are? The CM will have a front to back ratio of over 20dB, and weaker DTV signal can typically be processed alongside an adjacent DTV signal that is about 26 to 28 dB stronger. I'm pretty sure that the 26 to 28 dB differential is measured in dBmV of signal power. If TV fool furnishes signal strengths in volts rather than in watts, you'll have to do some thinking to figure out if that ratio is plausible.


Should this antenna be able to develop that signal level differential with that antenna at this location? If so, then the next step will be to avoid preamplifier intermodulation with the bandpass filter.


If you can't get your channel 47 signal up to within 26 to 28dB of your channel 46 hitting the back of the antenna, but if you have access to a signal meter, you might point another antenna at the channel 46 transmitter, pad its output down so that it is exactly the same coming from both antennas, and then couple them through a hybrid splitter/combiner and move the antenna targeted at the channel 46 transmitter towards that trnasmitter until the measured, combined channel 46 signal strength reaches its minimum because the two signal sources are 180 degrees out of phase.


Unfortunately, the point at which the channel 46 boxcar is weakest might vary across its band. If I were going to try to phase cancel or phase mitigate a strong UHF signal, I would probably use Winegard PR-9032s, because it might be impossible to get all of the dipole elements of a 4-bay or 8-bay antenna to be in perfect sync with each other.


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I wouldn't spend any money for the 4228 before the filter arrives. You may get this whole thing working on-the-cheap with what you have already bought.
> 
> 
> What does TV fool say the relative signal strengths are? The CM will have a front to back ratio of over 20dB, and weaker DTV signal can typically be processed alongside an adjacent DTV signal that is about 26 to 28 dB stronger. I'm pretty sure that the 26 to 28 dB differential is measured in dBmV of signal power. If TV fool furnishes signal strengths in volts rather than in watts, you'll have to do some thinking to figure out if that ratio is plausible.
> 
> 
> Should this antenna be able to develop that signal level differential with that antenna at this location? If so, then the next step will be to avoid preamplifier intermodulation with the bandpass filter.
> 
> 
> If you can't get your channel 47 signal up to within 26 to 28dB of your channel 46 hitting the back of the antenna, but if you have access to a signal meter, you might point another antenna at the channel 46 transmitter, pad its output down so that it is exactly the same coming from both antennas, and then couple them through a hybrid splitter/combiner and move the antenna targeted at the channel 46 transmitter towards that trnasmitter until the measured, combined channel 46 signal strength reaches its minimum because the two signal sources are 180 degrees out of phase.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, the point at which the channel 46 boxcar is weakest might vary across its band. If I were going to try to phase cancel or phase mitigate a strong UHF signal, I would probably use Winegard PR-9032s, because it might be impossible to get all of the dipole elements of a 4-bay or 8-bay antenna to be in perfect sync with each other.



Mike, you lost me on almost all of that. I will probably wait until I get the Jointenna to see of that works. After that, I don't know.


Can you answer something for me? Where do I put the Jointenna? Does it have to be inline before the pre-amp with just 1 antenna? If so, what's the best way to do that? 2 downleads? I don't think the Jointenna is weather safe.


thanks,


paul


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The PR-9018 has two more reflector and two more director elements. I derived my 9dB estimate from the specs for the UHF section of the Winegard PR-5456.
> 
> 
> I was guessing that the middle VHF element was a dipole, with a reflector behind it and a director ahead, but again, the picture is just too small to see for sure.



The W-G PR-5646 appears to have 7 directors in front of the UHF active element:
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/Pr-5646.pdf 


When I blew up the A-C HBU-22 image, I think I saw something that looked like

a folded dipole UHF active element, with 8 directors in front of it....


Or maybe only 7....too blurry to tell the difference.....


----------



## Tobias Ziegler

[QUOTE= If I wanted to take the amp out of the circuit, do I need to remove the Mast mounted piece as well as the power injector?


The mast mounted piece is the part with the active electronic components. If you leave it in the signal path without the power being applied, you might possibly see a very strong signal dribble through, but more likely you will see no signal at all pass through it. Both components should be removed. And by the way, make sure that you disconnect the power BEFORE you remove the mast mounted piece. If you remove the amp out at the antenna while power is still being applied, you can damage the power supply (the "wall wart") when you hook up the coax to the balun. I know that from experience ! Of course, this vulnerability may vary from model to model.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I wouldn't spend any money for the 4228 before the filter arrives. You may get this whole thing working on-the-cheap with what you have already bought.
> 
> 
> What does TV fool say the relative signal strengths are? The CM will have a front to back ratio of over 20dB, and weaker DTV signal can typically be processed alongside an adjacent DTV signal that is about 26 to 28 dB stronger. I'm pretty sure that the 26 to 28 dB differential is measured in dBmV of signal power. If TV fool furnishes signal strengths in volts rather than in watts, you'll have to do some thinking to figure out if that ratio is plausible.
> 
> 
> Should this antenna be able to develop that signal level differential with that antenna at this location? If so, then the next step will be to avoid preamplifier intermodulation with the bandpass filter.
> 
> 
> If you can't get your channel 47 signal up to within 26 to 28dB of your channel 46 hitting the back of the antenna, but if you have access to a signal meter, you might point another antenna at the channel 46 transmitter, pad its output down so that it is exactly the same coming from both antennas, and then couple them through a hybrid splitter/combiner and move the antenna targeted at the channel 46 transmitter towards that trnasmitter until the measured, combined channel 46 signal strength reaches its minimum because the two signal sources are 180 degrees out of phase.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, the point at which the channel 46 boxcar is weakest might vary across its band. If I were going to try to phase cancel or phase mitigate a strong UHF signal, I would probably use Winegard PR-9032s, because it might be impossible to get all of the dipole elements of a 4-bay or 8-bay antenna to be in perfect sync with each other.



The Power Insertion Module can be left in the line, but you can't simply remove

power to the Preamp....you must BYPASS/REMOVE the mast-mounted Preamp.

Without power, it doesn't pass any signals....


===============================

Assuming Antenna F/B Ratio of about 20 dB and plugging Radio-Mobile calculated

Path Loss in my spread sheet calculator, Digital CH46 (WBBF-DT) is about

35.4 dB stronger than desired Digital CH47.

ATSC A/74 Receiver "Guidelines" advise the Digital next adjacent should be no

more than 33 dB stronger than the desired Digital.

So local CH46 needs to be suppressed by at least 3 dB.


Next adjacent CH45 (Analog WBBF) is calculated to be 43.8 dB stronger than CH47.

ATSC A/74 Receiver "Guidelines" advise the Analog N-2 adjacent channel should

be no more than 40 dB stronger than the desired Digital.

So local CH45 also needs to be suppressed by at least 4 dB.


This presumes 40-foot roof mounted CM-4228 with HDP-269.


However, actual HDTV performance may not meet A/74 Guidelines, as was

concluded in the following FCC OET tests on STB/HDTVs available in 2005-2006:
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/document...s-03-30-07.pdf 
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/document...on-testing.pdf 


==============================

BTW: JoinTenna might suppress CH45 some, but it isn't going to do much against CH46,

cuz it has to have fairly flat frequency and *envelope delay response* throughout CH47.


===========================

My spreadsheet calculator also predicts about 17.1 dB Fade Margin

(ignoring adjacent channel problem for the moment), which may not be quite

enough to support long term reliability....give or take uncertainties in assumptions....


I've been trying mightily to "calibrate" TVFool by comparing it to

Radio-Mobile, but TVFool estimate for Path Loss is AT LEAST 8 dB higher

for non-LOS (Line-Of-Sight) paths, which would reduce Fade Margin by that amount.


Check TVFool thread for more info....


=============================

A Stagger Tuned Dual Antenna Array would significantly increase F/B Ratio:
http://www.anarc.org/wtfda/stagger.pdf 
http://www.matchmaster.com.au/Pdf/01...0NZ%205-06.pdf 

(See page 2)


===============================

Here's the Radio-Mobile calculated Profile for WPMT-DT.

Yikes!!! That's quite a hill you're behind...


PS: R-M "RX Relative" (Fade Margin) calculation needs some "adjustments".

Since I only use the Path Loss calculation, I cut corners by assigning 1000 kW ERP

(vice 194 KW, 7.1 dB less) and R-M doesn't include a Cascade Noise Figure calculation....


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The Power Insertion Module can be left in the line, but you can't simply remove
> 
> power to the Preamp....you must BYPASS/REMOVE the mast-mounted Preamp.
> 
> Without power, it doesn't pass any signals.....



But don't have the power module powered up.....unplug it from the wall outlet.


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ==============================
> 
> BTW: JoinTenna might suppress CH45 some, but it isn't going to do much against CH46,
> 
> cuz it has to have fairly flat frequency and *envelope delay response* throughout CH47.
> 
> 
> .



I thought the Jointenna was supposed to tune out EVERYTHING other than the channel you have it tuned to?


----------



## paulstefano




Tobias Ziegler said:


> If you remove the amp out at the antenna while power is still being applied said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this would have been good to know a few weeks ago.
> 
> 
> I've connected and disconnected the pre-amp on several models recently, without disconnecting or even unplugging the power supplies. I don't think I've done any damage, as the signal still comes through when everything is connected properly.
> 
> 
> Perhaps because I've always left a coaxial cable hanging from the balun, and just moved the amp from antenna to antenna?
Click to expand...


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paulstefano* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I thought the Jointenna was supposed to tune out EVERYTHING other than the channel you have it tuned to?



Paul, the Jointenna is a bandpass filter but it is not a rectangular notch for the channel you select. It will not suppress adjacent channels very much. Which is why I wrote that I don't expect the Jointenna to do you that much good against an adjacent channel.


As others have already posted (and IIRC I wrote back in the Washington-baltimore thread), removing the power does NOT result in a bypass of the pre-amp. It instead results in almost no signal coming from the antenna. You must go up to the antenna and bypass the pre-amp from the co-axial cable run. Then aim the CM 4221 north at WPMT-DT and see what stations you get (write them down) & what the signal meter shows for digital UHF 47 (or 47-1) if your ATSC tuner allows you to directly tune to the digital broadcast channel. Do this to baseline your setup before you get into pre-amps, Jointennas, larger antennas, multiple antennas.


PS yes, unplug and disconnect the power supply for the pre-amp before removing the pre-amp at the antenna.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




paulstefano said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this would have been good to know a few weeks ago.
> 
> 
> I've connected and disconnected the pre-amp on several models recently, without disconnecting or even unplugging the power supplies. I don't think I've done any damage, as the signal still comes through when everything is connected properly.
> 
> 
> Perhaps because I've always left a coaxial cable hanging from the balun, and just moved the amp from antenna to antenna?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, the problem is when you hook up the coax directly to the balun while the power is on. Many if not all baluns have a coil on coax side of their circuit, and a coil is practically a direct short for DC. Better quality power supplies might handle it without damage, but in my case, the wall wart died. Now that I think of it, it might also be possible for the balun to be damaged if the power supply can deliver enough current for a long enough time. In any event, power off and you'll have a happier life.
Click to expand...


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Assuming Antenna F/B Ratio of about 20 dB and plugging Radio-Mobile calculated Path Loss in my spread sheet calculator, Digital CH46 (WBBF-DT) is about 35.4 dB stronger than desired Digital CH47.
> 
> ATSC A/74 Receiver "Guidelines" advise the Digital next adjacent should be no
> 
> more than 33 dB stronger than the desired Digital.
> 
> So local CH46 needs to be suppressed by at least 3 dB.
> 
> 
> Next adjacent CH45 (Analog WBBF) is calculated to be 43.8 dB stronger than CH47. ATSC A/74 Receiver "Guidelines" advise the Analog N-2 adjacent channel should be no more than 40 dB stronger than the desired Digital. So local CH45 also needs to be suppressed by at least 4 dB...
> 
> 
> However, actual HDTV performance may not meet A/74 Guidelines, as was
> 
> concluded in the following FCC OET tests on STB/HDTVs available in 2005-2006:
> http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/document...s-03-30-07.pdf
> http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/document...on-testing.pdf
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> My spreadsheet calculator also predicts about 17.1 dB Fade Margin
> 
> (ignoring adjacent channel problem for the moment), which may not be quite
> 
> enough to support long term reliability....give or take uncertainties in assumptions.......



I don't think I've ever reliably processed a signal that was more than 30dB weaker than an adjacent one, using either my Radio Shack Accurian (I grabbed four when they closed out on them for $90 each) or my early model Samsung. Does hol_lands know if the Accuran tuner even has a varactor bandpass filter on its input? I suspect either that it does not, or if it does, it is an anemic one, since the so-called signal strength numbers that the Accurian displays on very weak signals can go up substantially if I bandpass filter off strong signals that are even fifty Mhz away from the weak, tuned signal (my weak, unamplified DTV channel 59 could not be processed until I filtered off my strong analog channel 50).


Even if paulsteffano's antenna can develop a D/U ratio of 33dB, and even if his receiver can meet that standard, he still needs a more favorable ratio than that, since the adjacent signal is going to get beaten up in the preamp by 3rd Order IMD. While 3rd Order IMD is about 12 dB stronger on the strong channel itself than it is on the adjacent channel(s), it will still become excessive on the adjacent channel first. In another thread, I pointed out that I have a system with an undesired DTV channel 39 that is 18 to 20 dB stronger than my adjacent DTV channels 38 and 40, and even though my Accurian can process 38 and 40 unamplified, producing so-called "signal strength" numbers around 65% to 70%, as soon as I pass it through a Winegard AP4727 (23 dB gain version of the AP4700/4800), the IMD kills 38 and 40, even though no analog carriers are within ten dB of Winegard's published overload specs and even the strong channel 39 is more than ten dB weaker than the analog carriers.


I'm a little surprised that in an analysis that says a 33dB D/U differential of adjacent digital is acceptable, that the comparable D/U threshold for an N-2 analog signal is 40dB. I have to wonder, as we go from report to report and try to reach conclusions based on the knowledge we accumulate, how often we are comparing apples to oranges. I suspect that an analysis that says that 33dB is the minimum D/U ratio for N-1 digital and 40dB is the minimum D/U ratio for N-2 analog is measuring RMS power within the analog channel 45's 6 Mhz band width, rather than the channel 45 carrier peak, which is all that most of us are outfitted to measure with our field-grade FSMs. If the report was referring to RMS power of the analog channel , then hol_lands should check to see if his channel 45 calculation was for RMS power or for visual carrier peak. I just can't see the channel 45, N-2 analog carrier in this instance contributing anywhere near the degradation that the channel 46, N-1 digital signal will.


Regrettably, the uncertainties that result from being behind a steep hill render this situation a poor one for analysis. Without a spectrum analyzer to measure the received signal strengths, even if he gets his link to work, we won't know which of the inaccurately estimated factors contributed more significantly or less significantly to his satisfactory results, and if he is unsuccessful, we won't know if he missed by an inch or a mile.


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't think I've ever reliably processed a signal that was more than 30dB weaker than an adjacent one, using either my Radio Shack Accurian (I grabbed four when they closed out on them for $90 each) or my early model Samsung. Does hol_lands know if the Accuran tuner even has a varactor bandpass filter on its input? I suspect either that it does not, or if it does, it is an anemic one, since the so-called signal strength numbers that the Accurian displays on very weak signals can go up substantially if I bandpass filter off strong signals that are even fifty Mhz away from the weak, tuned signal (my weak, unamplified DTV channel 59 could not be processed until I filtered off my strong analog channel 50).
> 
> 
> Even if paulsteffano's antenna can develop a D/U ratio of 33dB, and even if his receiver can meet that standard, he still needs a more favorable ratio than that, since the adjacent signal is going to get beaten up in the preamp by 3rd Order IMD. While 3rd Order IMD is about 12 dB stronger on the strong channel itself than it is on the adjacent channel(s), it will still become excessive on the adjacent channel first. In another thread, I pointed out that I have a system with an undesired DTV channel 39 that is 18 to 20 dB stronger than my adjacent DTV channels 38 and 40, and even though my Accurian can process 38 and 40 unamplified, producing so-called "signal strength" numbers around 65% to 70%, as soon as I pass it through a Winegard AP4727 (23 dB gain version of the AP4700/4800), the IMD kills 38 and 40, even though no analog carriers are within ten dB of Winegard's published overload specs and even the strong channel 39 is more than ten dB weaker than the analog carriers.
> 
> 
> I'm a little surprised that in an analysis that says a 33dB D/U differential of adjacent digital is acceptable, that the comparable D/U threshold for an N-2 analog signal is 40dB. I have to wonder, as we go from report to report and try to reach conclusions based on the knowledge we accumulate, how often we are comparing apples to oranges. I suspect that an analysis that says that 33dB is the minimum D/U ratio for N-1 digital and 40dB is the minimum D/U ratio for N-2 analog is measuring RMS power within the analog channel 45's 6 Mhz band width, rather than the channel 45 carrier peak, which is all that most of us are outfitted to measure with our field-grade FSMs. If the report was referring to RMS power of the analog channel , then hol_lands should check to see if his channel 45 calculation was for RMS power or for visual carrier peak. I just can't see the channel 45, N-2 analog carrier in this instance contributing anywhere near the degradation that the channel 46, N-1 digital signal will.
> 
> 
> Regrettably, the uncertainties that result from being behind a steep hill render this situation a poor one for analysis. Without a spectrum analyzer to measure the received signal strengths, even if he gets his link to work, we won't know which of the inaccurately estimated factors contributed more significantly or less significantly to his satisfactory results, and if he is unsuccessful, we won't know if he missed by an inch or a mile.



I had forgotten about that giant hill when I started all this. I know it's there, becuase it's a favorite place of mine to ride my bike for the great view. Maybe I should just buy a house there!


I had wondered why antenna web's info varied so greatly when I would change the plot by 1/2 mile or less to the east. Thanks for the reminder. Of course realizing this, moving the antenna up or down 15 feet is probably not making much of a difference.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paulstefano* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I thought the Jointenna was supposed to tune out EVERYTHING other than the channel you have it tuned to?



Nope. A Jointenna passes several channels above and below the desired channel. The Jointenna will not help intermod from 45/46 being generated in the preamp from getting into 47.


Another approach is to stack two identical antennas horizontally such that they null out 45/46 and add on 47. The stacking distance must be calulated for the exact location and frequency. That plus the front/side ratio if the antennas could get as much as 40 db of isolation between 45/46 and 47.


----------



## holl_ands

Because the desired and undesired stations are in opposite directions,

the horizontal distance stacking calculator yields nonsense results.


See above Matchmaster's "Stagger Stacking" on pg 3, vice "Stacking for Gain" on pg 2.


----------



## AntAltMike

I picked a street address within a block of the I-695/ I-83 intersection and estimated that the rear attack angle of channel 46 is just one degree off the channel 47 target line. The half-wavelength of 645 Mhz is 9.15". The secant of 89 degrees is 57.23. Therefore, the space between the horizontally stacked antennas needs to be about 524" Hmmmm...


That's why it is better to point a second antenna at the Baltimore transmitter, pad it down by 50 dB or so until its channel 46 equals the 46 from the Pennsylvania antenna, and then slide that antenna towards or away from the Baltimore tower until the two signals phase cancel. You should use a variable attenuator like Radio Shack used to make, and each time you move that antenna an inch, wiggle it a little because the output level might vary a little from place to place.


You can put a wire or a string through the boom of the antenna you will be moving to make sliding it easy, or perhaps you can use a moveable, non-penetrating mount.


You will need to be using Yagis with single dipoles and rigid 75 ohm terminator boards, as the loss through a wire lead balun can vary by a couple dB just from the leads flexing.


Or if you want to save the work, Microwave Filter Corp sells a phase shifter that will do that for you. I bought a lowband and a highband model several years ago for a brutal job that the customer then canceled, but they make (or at least, made) a UHF model also. They retailed for $700 each. I think I paid about $450-$500 each.


At this point, before he spends/wastes any more money, paulstefano needs to go on eBay and buy a cheap meter to see just what his channel 47 signal strength is. Someone just bought a digital meter that tunes by frequency for about $20 yesterday. Actually, it is a digital meter that measured peak power within a 250 Mhz bandwidth. I estimate that you would add about 8dB to what the meter produces for a reading. But you'd first have to amplify the signal enough to reach the meter's threshold.


----------



## paulstefano

Well,


I appreciate everybody's help. Not one to sit quitely, I decided to do some more experimenting. If anybody cares to comment, I'd love to hear it.


I decided to try to make a notch filter for channel 45 myself. I bought a BNC T connector and some BNC to F adapters. Then I bought a BNC R59 coaxial cable and began to cut. After a bunch of trial and error, I was able to get a stub that seemed to work. I was watching analog 43 on one TV and my Directv Signal meter on another.


My CM 4221 is still on a mast at 40 feet and still connected to my Winegard HDP-269 amp. With the antenna pointed directly at the WPMT tower at 6 degrees azimuth from my house, I am still getting WBFF at 187 degrees. It's not a 100%, but very strong with only occasional dropouts.


I inserted the T connector with notch both before and after the power injector in the line. The result seemed to be about the same.


When I got to the right length, 7.43 centimeters, I completely lost analog 43. On my signal meter, WBFF (Real 46)went to 0, and I saw a quick blip of 25% on WPMT (Real 47), but nothing else.


So, I was able to get rid of WBFF on 46. From the little I know about notch filters, I probably was killing 47. I kept cutting to experiment, and even with a 2 inch piece of wire for a stub, I had suppressed 46, but never saw any more of 47.


Questions: Is this worth pursuing at all? I thought I'd take out the pre-amp (when it's not raining) and try again with another piece of coax. If so, do I need to notch out several stations?


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> IThat's why it is better to point a second antenna at the Baltimore transmitter, pad it down by 50 dB or so until its channel 46 equals the 46 from the Pennsylvania antenna, and then slide that antenna towards or away from the Baltimore tower until the two signals phase cancel. You should use a variable attenuator like Radio Shack used to make, and each time you move that antenna an inch, wiggle it a little because the output level might vary a little from place to place.



What does it mean to "pad down" a transmitter?


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paulstefano* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I decided to try to make a notch filter for channel 45 myself. I bought a BNC T connector and some BNC to F adapters. Then I bought a BNC R59 coaxial cable and began to cut.



They actually make type F "Tee" and "X" connectors. Someone sends me a catalog a couple of times a year that list them, but they are scarce.



> Quote:
> When I got to the right length, 7.43 centimeters, I completely lost analog 43. On my signal meter, WBFF (Real 46)went to 0, and I saw a quick blip of 25% on WPMT (Real 47), but nothing else.
> 
> 
> So, I was able to get rid of WBFF on 46. From the little I know about notch filters, I probably was killing 47. Questions: Is this worth pursuing at all? I thought I'd take out the pre-amp (when it's not raining) and try again with another piece of coax. If so, do I need to notch out several stations?



I think you're wasting your time with a stub filter. We analyzed them here a few years ago, and they were not very sharp, meaning, yes, if it knocks out 46, then it is degrading 47.


And the "elimination" of 46 is an illusion. If your notch lands on the channel 46 pilot carrier, you can probably render channel 46 unprocessable while only reducing its RF power by a couple of dB, especially if your attenuation of it is not linear. If you were in a high stakes situation and you need to throw everything but the kitchen sink at this, you could use a Blonder Tongue MWT-U to put a couple of deep notches into the channel 46 boxcar, but even then, you couldn't reduce its power by more than a few dB that way, either.


I reiterate from my previous post, you need to buy a used meter on eBay. Unfortunately, the one that went recently for $20 was an aberration. Used meters more commonly sell for $150 to $200.


----------



## paulstefano

What do you think of this?

http://cgi.*********/SADELCO-VHF-UHF...QQcmdZViewItem 


apparantly I can't link to ebay.


Anyway, if you go there and search "uhg signal meter" the only result is an attractive UHF meter. What do you think of that?


----------



## AntAltMike

260134234453 $150, 1.5 days. Will sell for twice that.


200125057764 $140, 2 days, 18 hrs, prob good value at $200


Display Max Jrs go for $200-$250, but for some reason, one is now up to $400.


Display Max 3000 is better for your situation, but expect them to sell for $300.


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: I posted an update to my DTV Signal Level Calculator spreadsheet which compares

Propagation Prediction results from RADIO-MOBILE vs antennaweb.org and now

includes at attempt at "calibrating" and comparing to TVFool.com on-line calculator:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...post10961518


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paulstefano* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I had forgotten about that giant hill when I started all this. I know it's there, becuase it's a favorite place of mine to ride my bike for the great view. Maybe I should just buy a house there!
> 
> 
> I had wondered why antenna web's info varied so greatly when I would change the plot by 1/2 mile or less to the east. Thanks for the reminder. Of course realizing this, moving the antenna up or down 15 feet is probably not making much of a difference.



FYI: I also included detailed calculations for your situation within the

spreadsheet calculator (see sheet 11) just cited above.


Yup, CH45 and CH46 are too strong.


You might be able to suppress them with either the "screen" mentioned above,

and/or temporarily mount the antenna on the North side of the house so that it

attenuates signals coming from the South....and try different heights.


After that, Stagger Stacked antennas has my vote for "most likely to succeed"....


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> FYI: I also included detailed calculations for your situation within the
> 
> spreadsheet calculator (see sheet 11) just cited above.
> 
> 
> Yup, CH45 and CH46 are too strong.
> 
> 
> You might be able to suppress them with either the "screen" mentioned above,
> 
> and/or temporarily mount the antenna on the North side of the house so that it
> 
> attenuates signals coming from the South....and try different heights.
> 
> 
> After that, Stagger Stacked antennas has my vote for "most likely to succeed"....



does this screen need to be one contiuous piece? I was thinking of using some chicken wire, but the largest width I can find is 4 feet. Can I piece it together, without harming much?


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Nope. A Jointenna passes several channels above and below the desired channel. The Jointenna will not help intermod from 45/46 being generated in the preamp from getting into 47.
> 
> 
> Another approach is to stack two identical antennas horizontally such that they null out 45/46 and add on 47. The stacking distance must be calulated for the exact location and frequency. That plus the front/side ratio if the antennas could get as much as 40 db of isolation between 45/46 and 47.



Would it make sens to get a Jointenna for something below 47, so that it would also attenuate 45 and 46, but not degrade 47?


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're wasting your time with a stub filter. We analyzed them here a few years ago, and they were not very sharp, meaning, yes, if it knocks out 46, then it is degrading 47.
> 
> 
> And the "elimination" of 46 is an illusion. If your notch lands on the channel 46 pilot carrier, you can probably render channel 46 unprocessable while only reducing its RF power by a couple of dB, especially if your attenuation of it is not linear. If you were in a high stakes situation and you need to throw everything but the kitchen sink at this, you could use a Blonder Tongue MWT-U to put a couple of deep notches into the channel 46 boxcar, but even then, you couldn't reduce its power by more than a few dB that way, either.
> 
> 
> .



If I read holl_ands report right, then the overloading past what 47 should tolerate is only 2.3 db for channel 46 and 3.8 db for channel 45. That should easy to trap out with almost any equipment properly tuned right?


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paulstefano* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> does this screen need to be one contiuous piece? I was thinking of using some chicken wire, but the largest width I can find is 4 feet. Can I piece it together, without harming much?



No it does not need to be one continuous piece so long as you don't have gaps in the screen.


Have you tried getting WPMT-DT yet without the pre-amp in the signal path? Do you get WBFF-DT Fox 45 (DT=46) with the pre-amp installed?


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No it does not need to be one continuous piece so long as you don't have gaps in the screen.
> 
> 
> Have you tried getting WPMT-DT yet without the pre-amp in the signal path? Do you get WBFF-DT Fox 45 (DT=46) with the pre-amp installed?



Sounds like you have a typo there. You mention 2 separate situations.


WITH the pre-amp installed I get WBFF-DT strong, although the antenna is pointed 180 degrees away from the tower.


WITHOUT the pre-amp...Not sure, I plan to try that tonight.


Given holl_ands report, doesn't it seem like a dual channel trap would work? I think the Jointenna still has a shot, as it will degrade both 46 and 45 a little, maybe enough to knock of 2.3 and 3.8 db respectively.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paulstefano* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If I read holl_ands report right, then the overloading past what 47 should tolerate is only 2.3 db for channel 46 and 3.8 db for channel 45. That should easy to trap out with almost any equipment properly tuned right?



These projections incorporate more precision than is warranted by the accuracy of our data. Hol_lands recommendations of D/U ratios are based on the assumption that a tuner meets a recommended performance level, but he and I have both warned that many, if not most, tuners do not perform that well. Further, the 2.3 dB channel 46 reduction prescription is only for instances with no subsequent preamplification. Any preamplification will cause intermodulation distortion, and a signal that is 30dB weaker than the one adjacent to it will be degraded by even the weak intermodulation distortion that will be developed by a quality amplifier that is being driven well below its benchmark overload conditions.


You really need to determine that you have enough channel 47 signal to salvage if processed properly before going any further.


----------



## holl_ands

We must also bear in mind that long distance, weak signals are more sensitive to changes

in propagation conditions (e.g. refractive index) and consequently the calculated R-M

signal levels represent some sort of AVERAGE signal strength, which will be significantly

LOWER as the signal suffers from both seasonal changes, and also multipath fades.


On the other hand, the local signals remains pretty much rock steady...


For long term reliability, it wouldn't hurt to factor in 10 dB for "conservative engineering".

So the amount of CH45/46 suppression for real-world environment is

perhaps 10 dB more than lab measurements.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> These projections incorporate more precision than is warranted by the accuracy of our data. Hol_lands recommendations of D/U ratios are based on the assumption that a tuner meets a recommended performance level, but he and I have both warned that many, if not most, tuners do nort perform that well. Further, the 2.3 dB channel 46 reduction prescriotion is only for instances with no subsequent preamplification. Any preamplification will cause intermodulation distortion, and a signal that is 30dB weaker than the one adjacent to it will be degraded by even the weak intermodulation distortion that will be developed by a quality amplifier that is being driven well below its benchmarl overload conditions.
> 
> 
> You really need to determine that you have enough channel 47 signal to salvage if processed properly before going any further.



In the spreadsheet calculator, I included a derivation of how strong undesired

signals could be for the maximum SFDR (Spurious Free Dynamic Range),

wherein the intermod products are no higher than the thermal noise floor.

When pointing North, the W-G HDP-269 was calculated to be operating with

undesired signals 10 dB BELOW this point, hence IMD desensitization "should"

not be a problem (with the CM-4228).


CM-4221 will be somewhat worse...

C-M specs for F/B Ratio are 4 dB less, although it looks more like 10 dB difference in:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


Re. Stagger Stacked Antenna choice: A pair of Corner Yagis is probably better than

a pair of back-to-back CM-4221's....but the latter is cheaper and hence worth trying....


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Because the desired and undesired stations are in opposite directions,
> 
> the horizontal distance stacking calculator yields nonsense results.
> 
> 
> See above Matchmaster's "Stagger Stacking" on pg 3, vice "Stacking for Gain" on pg 2.



Correct. I did not analyze the directions closely before I wrote the response. Stagger stacking is the answer.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paulstefano* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Would it make sens to get a Jointenna for something below 47, so that it would also attenuate 45 and 46, but not degrade 47?



If you wanted to try that trick you'd need a Jointenna for channel 48 or 49. Even then that's unlikely to be effective.


----------



## paulstefano

Update:


I removed the HDP-269 from the line and I retained 43 Analog very cleary, if not as cleary as I had it with the amp. WBFF-DT is not showing up on my Directv Signal meter, nor is WPMT-DT. I am, strangely picking up intermittently, WMAR-DT.


So, does everybody's recommendations still stand?


If I am to go the stacked antenna route, what's my best options? Given, I already have a CM 4221, I see it like this.


1. Stack 2 4221 antennas (most affordable)

2. Buy a 4228, try it alone, if not stack it with the 4221 (not sure if this will work)

3. Buy 2 Yagis and basically start over (Model recommendations would be appreciated)


Finally, is everybody convinced that attenuating 45 and 46 with a notch, a trap or bandpass filter is worthless?


thanks again for all your help.


paul


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paulstefano* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So, does everybody's recommendations still stand?
> 
> 
> If I am to go the stacked antenna route, what's my best options?
> 
> 
> Finally, is everybody convinced that attenuating 45 and 46 with a notch, a trap or bandpass filter is worthless?
> 
> 
> thanks again for all your help.
> 
> 
> paul



Notch or traps are almost worthless. A bandpass filter will help. It is easier than stagger stacking, but more expensive.


Stagger stacking a pair of 4221's will require building a custom standoff for one of the 4221's. A pair of Yagis will be easier to construct because the boom can be drilled to accommodate the needed offset.


The magic dimensions for stagger stacking on channel 47 are 4 3/8" antenna offset and 3 5/8" more RG-6 for the antenna closer to York than the further antenna.


----------



## holl_ands

1. The Stagger Stacked Antenna Array ensures that the two signals going into the combiner

are OUT-OF-PHASE with each other. It does this by mounting the antennas so that the antenna

feed points are a quarter-wavelength apart (for the undesired channel) and there is another

quarter-wavelength difference between the two cables.

[And note the adjustment for velocity factor in the cables.]

But the nulling bandwidth is very limited....


2. But that's not the only configuration:

If two CM-4221's are mounted back-to-back, measure the physical distance between

the two antenna feed points, figure how much of a wavelength that is (say 0.4 lamda)

for the undesired channel and then make the two interconnecting cables

so that the OVERALL DIFFERENCE is a multiple of one-half lamda

On one of the balun transformers, you'll need to flip the pair connecting to one

of the antennas anyway to make sure they're out-of-phase.

[Watch signal strength indicator while watching CH46.]

Obviously, a DIY system would need an RF attenuator to reduce the signal level

for the (unamplified) antenna pointed to the local stations....which isn't easy to adjust...


3. A similar arrangement with two (more or less) arbitrarily located antennas can

be used in a phase canceling antenna system:
http://pages.cthome.net/fmdx/phase.html 
http://www.geocities.com/toddemslie/...ncellation.htm 

Electrical components are used to selectively insert phase shift delays and adjust signal levels.

Off-the-shelf Phase Cancelers are available---but mostly for Amateur Radio bands....


==============================

The advantage of all of these approaches is the the signal coming from

the desired direction is unaffected by any filtering processes.

The only degradation is due to whatever additional noise and multipath is

picked up by the UNAMPLIFIED and ATTENUATED antenna pointing

in the opposite direction...presumably a small effect....


Since the nulling bandwidth is very limited, it would only suppress the upper

portion of CH46 without adversely affecting CH47, and a filter would still be

needed to attenuate CH45 (and lower part of CH46).


Hope this helps to understand the options....

But it would be difficult for a DIY project if you can't measure signal levels....


===============================

FWIW: My Sylvania OTA STB and DTA-5000 "Smart Antenna" supposedly

searches all 16 compass headings and picks the one with the "best" performance.

But it's mostly a low gain beam former, rather than directing nulls towards

undesired signal directions---like a true Adaptive Antenna Array would do....


I look forward to a new generation of "Smart Antennas"....


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> But it would be difficult for a DIY project if you can't measure signal levels....



I don't mean to sound flippant here, but if paulstefano still, "wants to play, he has to pay". None of the advice given in the last few pages of posts could possibly be worked into a real world solution without a signal meter. Ideally, he would have a spectrum analyzer, which, if bought on eBay, would cost $500 to $700 for a 1 Mhz scope with 80dB of vertical scale and that probably cost about $3,000 new, but if he had a lot of wearwithall, he could probably pull this off with a $200 digital readout FSM. But when the antenna being tweaked is on a 40 foot mast, fine tuning through trial and error can be hell.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> In the spreadsheet calculator, I included a derivation of how strong undesired signals could be for the maximum SFDR (Spurious Free Dynamic Range), wherein the intermod products are no higher than the thermal noise floor. When pointing North, the W-G HDP-269 was calculated to be operating with undesired signals 10 dB BELOW this point, hence IMD desensitization "should" not be a problem (with the CM-4228)....



But the only published specs for the HDP-259's intermodulation products are those found in Winegard's latest "funny numbers" preamplifier table, which says that the "maximum total input voltage" is 350,000 total microvolts. What are total microvolts? To keep this in simple digits for exposition's sake, if I impress five volts across a one ohm resistor, I sink five amps and develop 25 watts of output, but if I impress one volt across each of five one ohm resistors, I arguably have five total volts, but I only develop only 5 watts. Why would I use "total volts" to express a limit that does not remain constant with different aggregations of voltages?


The new HDP-259 specs table is eerily similar to the earlier Winegard tables that have been vilified in this forum previously. You know, the one where they used to say that the ratings were for five, equal strength channels, but then dropped that qualifier from later printings, and sometimes they called the maximum input/output levels the levels at which the analog signals incurred 5% sync compression, but then later, said that those exact same signal levels were the ones at which -46 dBc of cross modulation took place.


Winegard has variously claimed that the AP4700 can handle inputs of 90,000 microvolts (about 39 dBmV), meaning it would output 56 dBmV after amplifying the signals by 17 dB, and that the AP4800 can handle inputs of 30,000 (about 29.5 dBmV), meaning it similarly would output about 57.5 dBmV under those conditions without overloading. And now, in the HDP-259's table, which is similarly formatted and is sans channel load parameter, it will allow an input of 350,000 microvolts, resulting in an output of 63 dBmV without overloading? I have three things to say about that claim:


1. Ho-ho-ho!


2. Hee-hee-hee!


3. Ha-ha-ha!


I should stop buying Blonder Tongue BIDA distribution amplifiers for $400 each and just use Winegard preamps in the same applications, instead.


A few weeks ago, I mentioned that the Winegard AP4727, which is a 22 or 23 dB gain mongrel brother of the AP4700 and AP4800, couldn't hold a candle to the Channel Master OSD 0065, which has the identical gain. when used in the same application. The Winegard AP4727 beat some weaker, adjacent digital channels into paste, yet, if you simply started with the assumption that a Winegard preamp could amplify even one digital channel to 57 dBmV without the IMD being excessive (what is our arbitrary benchmark for 3rd Order IMD? Perhaps -40 dBc? I don't think I've seen a figure in any manufacturer's published literature), and then figure that the adjacent channel 3rd order IMD is 12 dB below that, and then recalculate based on the fact that my strong adjacent digital input signal, at no more than 10 dBmV, was at least 24 dB below that maximum input level (57 dBmV out minus 23 dB gain = 34 dBmV max input), and therefore calculate that the 3rd Order IMD must be down by 72 dB (according to various technical literature, dropping the output level by one dB reduces the 3rd Order IMD by 3 dB, thus 24 dBmV power reduction results in 72 dB reduction in 3rd Order IMD), which makes it below the thermal noise floor. So if it is below the thermal noise floor, why can't any of my receivers lock onto the weaker adjacent signals after the AP4727 has "gently" amplified them? And I tried two different AP4727s, with the same result.


I just ordered a Winegard HDP-259. I will put it to "the test". I will feed it a channel 38 and 40 that are about 30 dB below the local channel 39 and then see how it performs at different power levels. I will also compare it to some 10 dB and 15 dB cable TV amps that I can buy on eBay for $10 to 15 each. I will wager that the HDP-259 doesn't come close to performing satisfactorily under the relatively extreme signal differentials I feed into it, and I doubt that it outperforms the $10 cable TV amplifiers. I used a couple of them as preamps recently and they worked great.


What are you predicting the signal strength of the channel 46 and 47 DTV signals to be?


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't mean to sound flippant here, but if paulstefano still, "wants to play, he has to pay". None of the advice given in the last few pages of posts could possibly be worked into a real world solution without a signal meter. Ideally, he would have a spectrum analyzer, which, if bought on eBay, would cost $500 to $700 for a 1 Mhz scope with 80dB of vertical scale and that probably cost about $3,000 new, but if he had a lot of wearwithall, he could probably pull this off with a $200 digital readout FSM. But when the antenna being tweaked is on a 40 foot mast, fine tuning through trial and error can be hell.



I'll be honest, this is getting a little more expensive than I thought. My whoe reason to start out doing this was to stop paying Directv for the NFL Sunday Ticket. They charge $250 and make you order ALL games. Since I only want to watch the Philadelphia Eagles, I thought I'd try to pick up an OTA broadcast. Along those lines, can somebody with Google Earth tell me if I would have a shot at the Philly Stations with a bigger antenna? The towers are 55 degrees from the WPMT tower from my location, and that's also 55 degrees away from that big hill!


Anyway, to get WPMT right, I would need to spend much more than $250. I think I may just watch the next 2 seasons in Analog on channel 43, and be done with it.


paul


----------



## SowegaBowler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paulstefano* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...can somebody with Google Earth tell me if I would have a shot at the Philly Stations with a bigger antenna?



andy.s.lee has a terrific app for Google Earth that shows transmitter locations, and another one that shows signal strength [i.e., coverage area and antenna suggestions]; they are being discussed here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=821480


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paulstefano* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Since I only want to watch the Philadelphia Eagles, I thought I'd try to pick up an OTA broadcast. Along those lines, can somebody with Google Earth tell me if I would have a shot at the Philly Stations with a bigger antenna?



Certainly not WTXF (Fox). Their digital transmitter is pretty low and even local people have trouble with it. You're deep fringe for Philly anyway.



> Quote:
> Anyway, to get WPMT right, I would need to spend much more than $250. I think I may just watch the next 2 seasons in Analog on channel 43, and be done with it.



Unfortunately, WBFF-DT is staying on 46 and WPMT on 47, so come 2009, you have the same problem. Unless the Eagles move to a different channel. Plenty of time to work on it, though. Maybe you could move so the giant hill blocks WBFF instead of WPMT


----------



## holl_ands

And if you enable display of ALL analog and digital stations in GoogleEarth,

you'll quickly see that you are SURROUNDED with stations all fighting for a

limited number of channel positions....and causing adjacent channel problems.


The TVFool.com charts list all potentially viewable stations....where the

bottom of the list is somewhere between iffy and fergetit.


WTXF-DT (FOX), 85 miles away in Philly is on CH42...

but so is WMPT-DT (PBS) and only 28 miles away.


----------



## Konrad2

>>> On analog 43, I get a VERY clear signal, no jumping or skipping,

>>> but there is a fuzzy grain to the picture.


"Fuzzy grain" sounds like snow, which means a poor signal/noise ratio.

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interfer...erencedex.html 
http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interference/tvibook.html 


Does someone make a peaky single channel yagi for UHF? Let the antenna

do some bandpass filtering. Looks like this would work well for VHF-LO,

less well for VHF-HI, but probably not for UHF?
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/WadeSCY.html 


Or... find an antenna with a better front/back ratio. Is there a front/back

spec for the XG91? Looks good on the simulated plots:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html 

Same for DAT75:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DAT75.html 


>> weaker DTV signal can typically be processed alongside an adjacent DTV

>> signal that is about 26 to 28 dB stronger


CRC test says 37.1 dB for the Samsung. Looks like they didn't

do this test for Linx or LG.


>> channel 46 boxcar


"boxcar" ?


> Maybe you could move so the giant hill blocks WBFF instead of WPMT 


Do you have the antenna pointed up, just above the top of the hill?


Perhaps try a different tuner/demodulator?


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> "boxcar" ?



When a spectrum analyzer is set on moderately fine resolution (say, 300 Khz), the waveform is often described as boxcar shaped. When it is set on a wider resolution (commonly, 3 Mhz), it is more accurately described as haystack shaped.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> >> weaker DTV signal can typically be processed alongside an adjacent DTV
> 
> >> signal that is about 26 to 28 dB stronger
> 
> 
> CRC test says 37.1 dB for the Samsung.



Here is what the FCC is using for D/U reference levels in determining whether to allow some DTV allotment changes

FCC 73.623 DTV applications and changes to DTV allotments. 

Revised as of July 5, 2007



The threshold levels at which interference is considered to occur are:
Code:


Code:


D/U Ratio
   Co-channel:                                                     
   DTV-into-analog TV                                      +34
   Analog TV-into-DTV                                       +2
   DTV-into-DTV                                            +15
   First Adjacent Channel:                                         
   Lower DTV-into-analog TV                                −14
   Upper DTV-into-analog TV                                −17
   Lower analog TV-into-DTV                                −48
   Upper analog TV-into-DTV                                −49
   [B]Lower DTV-into-DTV                                      -28
   Upper DTV-into-DTV                                      −26[/B]
   Other Adjacent Channel (Channels 14-69 only)                    
   DTV-into-analog TV, where N = analog TV channel 
    and DTV Channel:
   N-2                                                     −24
   N+2                                                     −28
   N-3                                                     −30
   N+3                                                     −34
   N-4                                                     −34
   N+4                                                     −25
   N-7                                                     −35
   N+7                                                     −43
   N-8                                                     −32
   N+8                                                     −43
   N+14                                                    −33
   N+15                                                    −31

I'm not familiar with the CRC Samsung test to which Konrad2 has alluded, but before anyone shells out another two or three hundred dollars, be forewarned that, 1) any ratio would probably vary somewhat with frequency, and, 2) any receiver that significantly outperforms the field by one measure may underperform it by another.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> >>>
> 
> Does someone make a peaky single channel yagi for UHF? Let the antenna
> 
> do some bandpass filtering. Looks like this would work well for VHF-LO,
> 
> less well for VHF-HI, but probably not for UHF?
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/WadeSCY.html
> 
> *A1: Notice above Lo-VHF antennas have a "Q" (ratio of bandwidth to op. freq)
> 
> of about 10, which barely covers one channel width.
> 
> For Hi-VHF, "Q" is also about 10, which now covers about 3 channels.
> 
> For UHF, a "Q" of 10 would range from 8-13 channels....
> 
> consistent with Blonder-Tongue BTY series, Fracarro et. al. super Yagis.*
> 
> 
> Or... find an antenna with a better front/back ratio. Is there a front/back
> 
> spec for the XG91? Looks good on the simulated plots:
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html
> 
> Same for DAT75:
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DAT75.html
> 
> *A2: Antennas Direct (as well as Funke "equivalent"), claim 28 dB F/B for 91XG
> 
> and 27 dB for 43XG. But in keeping with their usual spec practice, this may be
> 
> for the best channel, perhaps along the best, more or less rear facing azimuth....
> 
> Nonetheless, the 91XG has higher gain than CM-4228 and hence higher F/B Ratio.*
> 
> 
> >> weaker DTV signal can typically be processed alongside an adjacent DTV
> 
> >> signal that is about 26 to 28 dB stronger
> 
> CRC test says 37.1 dB for the Samsung. Looks like they didn't do this test for Linx or LG.
> 
> *A3: Below jpg is Fig 15-1 from recent FCC Office of Eng'n'g Tech. test of 8 HDTVs:
> http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/document...s-03-30-07.pdf
> 
> which supplements earlier sensitivity and multipath tests:
> http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/document...on-testing.doc
> 
> Fig 15-1 shows fairly good performance against adjacent digital channels,
> 
> but unexpectedly some HDTVs (shhhh, no names please) were even
> 
> more sensitive to interference on the NEXT adjacent channels (N+2, N-2).
> 
> Note channels further away were ALSO causing interference for some HDTVs.
> 
> The "humps" at N+7 (and probably also N-6) are due to oscillator image effects.
> 
> BTW, out of 30 HDTVs tested, ALL had single conversion tuners.*
> 
> 
> Do you have the antenna pointed up, just above the top of the hill?
> 
> *A4: The profile chart greatly exaggerates the terrain height.
> 
> The elevation angle is negligible--less than a degree.*
> 
> 
> Perhaps try a different tuner/demodulator?
> 
> *A5: He has two already.*



Sorry if this doesn't really help paulstefano's situation...

but roaming around on and off topic is what we do best....


----------



## holl_ands

CRC (Communications Research Centre, Canada) conducted tests on

three PROTOTYPE ATSC Receivers:
http://www.crc.ca/en/html/crc/home/r...broadcast/rtnt 


One of these is an early Linx (now Micronas) that may or not have gone into production.


The LG/Zenith "5th Gen" Receiver was an early PROTOTYPE.

It had problems with some of the multipath test ensembles, that may

or may not have been fixed in production units.


The Samsung "Gemini" ATSC Processor chip was used with an off-the-shelf ALPS tuner module.

(I think "Gemini" was code name for ATI Xillion chip, now found in the DTB-H260F.)

(Or whatever is found inside the Samsung version of the D* Receivers.)


----------



## Konrad2

>> Here is what the FCC is using for D/U reference levels in determining

>> whether to allow some DTV allotment changes


One might hope that the FCC is being very conservative. (Although I

read somewhere a claim that the FCC managed to get the required

field strength wrong by 56 dB. If true they might get other things

wrong as well.)


>> I'm not familiar with the CRC Samsung test to which Konrad2 has alluded,

http://www.crc.ca/en/html/crc/home/r...broadcast/rtnt 


>> but before anyone shells out another two or three hundred dollars, be

>> forewarned that, 1) any ratio would probably vary somewhat with frequency,

>> and, 2) any receiver that significantly outperforms the field by one

>> measure may underperform it by another.


True. And in the real world the tuner/demod will be fighting multiple

problems at once which might degrade the ability to fight the D into D

interference.


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> >>> On analog 43, I get a VERY clear signal, no jumping or skipping,
> 
> >>> but there is a fuzzy grain to the picture.
> 
> 
> "Fuzzy grain" sounds like snow, which means a poor signal/noise ratio.
> 
> http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interfer...erencedex.html
> http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interference/tvibook.html
> 
> 
> Does someone make a peaky single channel yagi for UHF? Let the antenna
> 
> do some bandpass filtering. Looks like this would work well for VHF-LO,
> 
> less well for VHF-HI, but probably not for UHF?
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/WadeSCY.html
> 
> 
> Or... find an antenna with a better front/back ratio. Is there a front/back
> 
> spec for the XG91? Looks good on the simulated plots:
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html
> 
> Same for DAT75:
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DAT75.html
> 
> 
> >> weaker DTV signal can typically be processed alongside an adjacent DTV
> 
> >> signal that is about 26 to 28 dB stronger
> 
> 
> CRC test says 37.1 dB for the Samsung. Looks like they didn't
> 
> do this test for Linx or LG.
> 
> 
> >> channel 46 boxcar
> 
> 
> "boxcar" ?
> 
> 
> > Maybe you could move so the giant hill blocks WBFF instead of WPMT
> 
> 
> Do you have the antenna pointed up, just above the top of the hill?
> 
> 
> Perhaps try a different tuner/demodulator?




Wow, after looking at this link what I have on WPMT Analog is definitely poor signal. It's "clear" in so much as it doesn't ghost, or jump, but it looks alot like the sample of "poor signal".


Given that, Does anybody think I should just try an antenna with more gain, like the CM 4228?


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paulstefano* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Wow, after looking at this link what I have on WPMT Analog is definitely poor signal. It's "clear" in so much as it doesn't ghost, or jump, but it looks alot like the sample of "poor signal".
> 
> 
> Given that, Does anybody think I should just try an antenna with more gain, like the CM 4228?



Well. given that your analog channel 43 and digital channel 47 travel the same path, their degradation should be similar. From your description, the peak power level of the visual carrier of the analog channel 43 coming off the antenna might be between -5dBmV and -15dBmV. What do hol_land's models (Radio Mobile and TV fool) predict for relative strength of 43 and 47 at this site? From that, we can more reliably estimate your present channel 47 RMS power level to see if it is suitable for further processing or needs to be increased..


Again, I reiterate the concern that I expressed earlier, which is that in calculating signal levels using any of these evolving models, we must make sure that we know if the analog signals are expressed in RMS power or peak visual carrier power. I haven't followed their development enough to have any idea.


----------



## Konrad2

>>>> I've connected and disconnected the pre-amp on several models recently


Does this imply that you have more than one amp sitting around to play with?

If so, once the jointenna arrives try a higher gain amp, with the amp

"downstream" of the jointenna so that the jointenna eliminates most

stations and hopefully prevents the amp from overloading.


>>> You should use a variable attenuator like Radio Shack used to make


Here's one
http://www.antennasdirect.com/attenuator.html 

(Ignore the nonsense about an attenuator helping with multipath.)


>> What does it mean to "pad down" a transmitter?


attenuate


>> I removed the HDP-269 from the line and I retained 43 Analog very cleary,

>> if not as cleary as I had it with the amp.


>> Wow, after looking at this link what I have on WPMT Analog is definitely

>> poor signal. It's "clear" in so much as it doesn't ghost, or jump, but it

>> looks alot like the sample of "poor signal".


>> Given that, Does anybody think I should just try an antenna with more gain,

>> like the CM 4228?


An antenna with more gain will help reduce snow on 43 Analog. As will removing

any splitters if you are using any. An amp with a lower noise figure will help,

although one better than your HDP-269 will be expensive. A higher gain amp

should help if you can keep it from overloading.


An antenna with more gain might help with digital 47. If the main problem with

47 is interference from 46, you want to try and reduce the amount of 46 that

the antenna picks up. The station list a few messages back doesn't include

angles, but I presume that 46 is in the opposite direction from 47? So you want

high gain, and you also want a high front-to-back ratio. Get the exact angles

and then look at the radiation patterns for various high gain UHF antennas.

Figure out what direction 46 will be with the 0 dB lobe pointing at 47. Find

the antenna with the smallest gain pointing at 46. A null (plot curves in to the

center of the chart) would be ideal.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html 
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DAT75.html 
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w8800.html 
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB8.html 
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html 


>>> Assuming Antenna F/B Ratio of about 20 dB

>>> ...

>>> So local CH46 needs to be suppressed by at least 3 dB.


> Antennas Direct (as well as Funke "equivalent"), claim 28 dB F/B for

> 91XG and 27 dB for 43XG. But in keeping with their usual spec practice,

> this may be for the best channel, perhaps along the best, more or less

> rear facing azimuth.... Nonetheless, the 91XG has higher gain than

> CM-4228 and hence higher F/B Ratio.


So a different antenna might be enough.


>>>> I don't think the Jointenna is weather safe.


Experiment on a nice day. 


If you find a solution that requires a Jointenna, attenuator,

or similar device to be near the antenna, they sell weatherproof

boxes for that purpose.


----------



## Alan Gordon

I have a Channel Master 4228 UHF antenna hooked up to a Channel Master 7777 Pre-Amp.


For a while, I only had the antenna hooked up to one room (Den), but last year, I put in a splitter near the grounding block and ran a second line from the splitter to a line coming from my DirecTV where I diplexed the signal and split it again inside to two lines... one going to my SD DirecTiVo and a Series 2 Stand-Alone TiVo in the Living Room. I was unable to plug my Channel Master 7777 pre-amp in, but I was able to pick all the stations up anyway... so no big deal. However...


The other day I was out running new RG6 runs for when DirecTV installs my new 5-LNB dish and decided to run a new dedicated line for the Living Room that WAS diplexed... but when I plug it into the splitter, I don't get reception in that Living Room... nor do I get reception in the other Den. I unplug it, and I get reception in the Den... I unplug the Den, I get reception in the Living Room.


Any suggestions as to what my problem is, and how to correct it?


~Alan


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What do hol_land's models (Radio Mobile and TV fool) predict for relative strength of 43 and 47 at this site? .



I don't completely understand the numbers so I'm not sure where to look in the file.?


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Alan Gordon* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I was unable to plug my Channel Master 7777 pre-amp in, but I was able to pick all the stations up anyway... so no big deal. However...



You need to keep track of where the DC power is going, and make sure it is correct.


If I understand your current situation, you've got

Code:


Code:


Antenna -- preamp -- splitter -- DEN
                             |-- LIVING ROOM

and the DirecTV wiring is completely separate. You've got no DC power at all, so your pre-amp is acting as an attenuator instead of an amplifier. That it works at all with one side disconnected is basically accident.


Install the 0747 power injector before the splitter, if you can. If you can't do that, and the splitter is power-pass on one port (usually indicated by a line on the splitter label from one of the outputs to the input), plug the 0747 power injector into the coax coming off of that port. If it is power-pass on all ports, plug the injector into the coax coming off of either port, and install a DC blocker on the other port. If it doesn't pass power at all, you need a new splitter.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well. given that your analog channel 43 and digital channel 47 travel the same path, their degradation should be similar. From your description, the peak power level of the visual carrier of the analog channel 43 coming off the antenna might be between -5dBmV and -15dBmV. What do hol_land's models (Radio Mobile and TV fool) predict for relative strength of 43 and 47 at this site? From that, we can more reliably estimate your present channel 47 RMS power level to see if it is suitable for further processing or needs to be increased..
> 
> 
> Again, I reiterate the concern that I expressed earlier, which is that in calculating signal levels using any of these evolving models, we must make sure that we know if the analog signals are expressed in RMS power or peak visual carrier power. I haven't followed their development enough to have any idea.



Calculated signal levels at input of Preamp, assuming CM-4228 pointed North:

CH43 (A-WPMT): -74.1 dBm (-25.3 dBmV) with 62.2 dBuV/m E-Field level.

CH47 (WPMT-DT): -65.4 dBm (-16.6 dBmV)

So DTV is calculated to be significantly stronger than Analog.

And PEAK DTV signal level is 7+ dB higher still.....


PEAK is used for Analog and AVERAGE across DTV bandwidth for Digital.

This applies to the ERP transmitter power allotments, ATSC sensitivity specs,

Analog and Digital Class A/B reception criteria and test equipment measurements.


The fol. Potomac and Boonton App. Notes explain conversions for DTV

when using older Analog meter:
http://www.pi-usa.com/pdf/dtva.pdf 
http://www.boonton.com/2002/pdf/AN50.pdf 

see also "Television Field Strength: Prediction and Measurement"
http://www.pi-usa.com/support.htm 


When considering Preamp overload, we have to be worried most about PEAK

voltage excursions, because those are the ones that cause infrequent data errors.

In the OVERLOAD Calculation spreadsheet, I noted that the Peaks of a

DTV signal are 7 +/- 1 dB above the calculated average signal levels.


----------



## Alan Gordon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You need to keep track of where the DC power is going, and make sure it is correct.
> 
> 
> If I understand your current situation, you've got
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Antenna -- preamp -- splitter -- DEN
> |-- LIVING ROOM
> 
> and the DirecTV wiring is completely separate. You've got no DC power at all, so your pre-amp is acting as an attenuator instead of an amplifier. That it works at all with one side disconnected is basically accident.



Actually, I have the line running into the Den plugged into a Surge Protector, and then into the power injector. I only had the power injector unplugged when I had the line into the Living Room diplexed as it interefered with the DirecTV multi-switch... and it worked fine without it. It still works fine with it unplugged as long as ONLY ONE LINE is hooked up to the splitter... but it doesn't work at all (plugged or unplugged) if both are hooked up to the splitter.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Install the 0747 power injector before the splitter, if you can. If you can't do that, and the splitter is power-pass on one port (usually indicated by a line on the splitter label from one of the outputs to the input), plug the 0747 power injector into the coax coming off of that port. If it is power-pass on all ports, plug the injector into the coax coming off of either port, and install a DC blocker on the other port. If it doesn't pass power at all, you need a new splitter.



I can't install the power injector before the splitter as I have no way to get power to it under the house. As far as the splitter that I'm using, I have no idea regarding the power-pass capabilities (I'll try to look into it when I get home from work), but I swapped it with another splitter (same type though) and a four-way power splitter... and still no good.


DC Blocker?


Also, what I find so strange regarding the whole thing is that I had it working fine when I had the antenna diplexed to the living room... yet I do a dedicated line and everything screws up. You'd think it would be the other way around...


~Alan


----------



## paulstefano

I have a grounding question. If I have an outdoor antenna with a downlead into an attic, then back out of the attic and into the basement, is grounding it at the basement enough?


thanks,


paul


----------



## paulstefano

Okay,


I've decided to find out if my situation will be improved by more antenna gain, so I need to decide between 2 models, the Wingard PR 8800 or the CM 4228.


The PR 8800 can be had locally, for $63 and, I can avoid shipping charges.


All the C2 4228 dealers charge $25 or more to ship that giant box, making the price $75-$80.


So, is there THAT much of a difference between the two?


----------



## nybbler

Checking hdtvprimer.com, the PR-8800 has about 1dB less gain at ch 47 and has significantly larger sidelobes than the CM-4228. In your very marginal situation, you need every DB and every bit of directionality you can get.


----------



## Konrad2

> I've decided to find out if my situation will be improved by more

> antenna gain, so I need to decide between 2 models, the Wingard

> PR 8800 or the CM 4228.


> So, is there THAT much of a difference between the two?


A year ago I was deciding between these two. I waded through this entire

thread. Summary:


CM 4228 is steel and weighs more than the mostly aluminum Winegard PR-8800.


CM 4228 has higher wind load than PR-8800. Consumer TV rotors have problems

with the CM 4228. If you want to use the CM 4228 with a rotor look into

a heavy duty ham rotor.


PR-8800 has more gain than CM 4228 below channel 24-28.

CM 4228 has more gain than PR-8800 above channel 24-28.

CM 4228 is said to be usable for VHF-HI despite the poor frequency response.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


Simulations show different radiation patterns, so one or the other might be

better for a particular situation. I have no idea how accurate the

simulations are.


Some people say that CM quality has gone downhill, and is now lower than

Winegard.


I picked the PR-8800 and it works well. PR-8800 works okay for VHF-HI.

I can't compare it with the 4228 since I don't have a 4228.


Have you ruled out the Yagis such as the XG91 and DAT75 ? I would

think that they would be preferred over the 8 bays for your situation?


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> > I've decided to find out if my situation will be improved by more
> 
> > antenna gain, so I need to decide between 2 models, the Wingard
> 
> > PR 8800 or the CM 4228.
> 
> 
> > So, is there THAT much of a difference between the two?
> 
> 
> A year ago I was deciding between these two. I waded through this entire
> 
> thread. Summary:
> 
> 
> CM 4228 is steel and weighs more than the mostly aluminum Winegard PR-8800.
> 
> 
> CM 4228 has higher wind load than PR-8800. Consumer TV rotors have problems
> 
> with the CM 4228. If you want to use the CM 4228 with a rotor look into
> 
> a heavy duty ham rotor.
> 
> 
> PR-8800 has more gain than CM 4228 below channel 24-28.
> 
> CM 4228 has more gain than PR-8800 above channel 24-28.
> 
> CM 4228 is said to be usable for VHF-HI despite the poor frequency response.
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
> 
> 
> Simulations show different radiation patterns, so one or the other might be
> 
> better for a particular situation. I have no idea how accurate the
> 
> simulations are.
> 
> 
> Some people say that CM quality has gone downhill, and is now lower than
> 
> Winegard.
> 
> 
> I picked the PR-8800 and it works well. PR-8800 works okay for VHF-HI.
> 
> I can't compare it with the 4228 since I don't have a 4228.
> 
> 
> Have you ruled out the Yagis such as the XG91 and DAT75 ? I would
> 
> think that they would be preferred over the 8 bays for your situation?



I tried the 46XG and I my results were the same for Digital, but things got much worse for Analog. I have had the best Analog reception with the 4221, and if I end up staying with just analog for the next 20 months, the PR 8800 should be the best option.


----------



## holl_ands

But when testing REAL ANTENNAS (vice computer simulations cited above) the

CM-4228 demonstrated a consistent 2 dB improvement over W-G PR-8800 for CH20-68:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...tml?1126051755 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...d#post10555890 


PS: Kerry Cozad works for Dielectric, the guys who build DTV transmitter antennas.


----------



## oraphus

Based on the bellow info for my area what outdoor antenna would work best for me?

From what i undersrtand it should be bi-directional. Othe then that is their a real adavantage to having amplifoed vs non-amplefied antenna and if anyone can recommend one it would be much appreciated.




DTV Antenna Call Sign Channel Network Compass Miles

Type Orientation From

* yellow - uhf KKPX-DT 65.1 ION 297° 37.8

* yellow - uhf KBCW-DT 44.1 CW 301° 41.8

* yellow - uhf KCNS-DT 38.1 SAH 301° 41.8

* yellow - uhf KGO-DT 7.1 ABC 301° 41.8

* yellow - uhf KBWB-DT 20.1 IND 301° 41.8

* yellow - uhf KPIX-DT 5.1 CBS 301° 41.8

* yellow - uhf KTSF-DT 26.1 IND 297° 37.8

* yellow - uhf KTVU-DT 2.1 FOX 301° 41.8

* yellow - uhf KFSF-DT 66.1 TFA 301° 41.8

* yellow - uhf KQED-DT 9.1 PBS 301° 41.8

* yellow - uhf KMTP-DT 33.1 IND 301° 41.8

* yellow - uhf KRON-DT 4.1 MNT 301° 41.8

* yellow - vhf KNTV-DT 11.1 NBC 297° 37.7

* yellow - uhf KCSM-DT 43.1 PBS 301° 41.8

* yellow - uhf KDTV-DT 14.1 UNI 358° 12.7

* yellow - uhf KSTS-DT 48.1 TEL 358° 12.7

* yellow - uhf KTEH-DT 54.1 PBS 0° 12

* yellow - uhf KICU-DT 36.1 IND 0° 12

* red - uhf KSMS-DT 31.1 UNI 139° 20.7

* blue - uhf KTLN-DT 47.1 IND 313° 68

* violet - vhf KSBW-DT 8.1 NBC 134° 45.4


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> > I've decided to find out if my situation will be improved by more
> 
> > antenna gain, so I need to decide between 2 models, the Wingard
> 
> > PR 8800 or the CM 4228.
> 
> 
> > So, is there THAT much of a difference between the two?
> 
> 
> A year ago I was deciding between these two. I waded through this entire
> 
> thread. Summary:
> 
> 
> CM 4228 is steel and weighs more than the mostly aluminum Winegard PR-8800.
> 
> 
> CM 4228 has higher wind load than PR-8800. Consumer TV rotors have problems
> 
> with the CM 4228. If you want to use the CM 4228 with a rotor look into
> 
> a heavy duty ham rotor.
> 
> 
> PR-8800 has more gain than CM 4228 below channel 24-28.
> 
> CM 4228 has more gain than PR-8800 above channel 24-28.
> 
> CM 4228 is said to be usable for VHF-HI despite the poor frequency response.
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
> 
> 
> Simulations show different radiation patterns, so one or the other might be
> 
> better for a particular situation. I have no idea how accurate the
> 
> simulations are.
> 
> 
> Some people say that CM quality has gone downhill, and is now lower than
> 
> Winegard.
> 
> 
> I picked the PR-8800 and it works well. PR-8800 works okay for VHF-HI.
> 
> I can't compare it with the 4228 since I don't have a 4228.
> 
> 
> Have you ruled out the Yagis such as the XG91 and DAT75 ? I would
> 
> think that they would be preferred over the 8 bays for your situation?



Well, I bought and installed the PR 8800 in my attic. Same results. Analog signal on 43 pretty good, digital on 47, not there. As predicted by most, I was able to pick up some stations from the side, 4 in total.


I suppose next, I'll wait to install that Jointenna to see if that helps, after that, who knows. I may give up, or if I can't lose the itch, I'll try the stagger stacking method.


BTW, the Winegard construction was HORRID. All of the pieces were bent. It has dipoles that you have to unfold over plastic clips. Well, 90 percent were bent down, so that the only way to pull them over the clips was to bend them back. In doing this, I snapped 2 of the clips and hand to krazy glue them. I don't think that will hold if I move this thing to the mast and the outdoors. Very dissapointing.


----------



## MeowMeow

FTR, I put up a CM 4228 with a CM 7777 and I have so far been fairly impressed. I'm in TV reception hell, and I get four very solid DTs (three are 38 mi, one is 63 mi away), three pretty good (two are 63 mi, and one is 85 mi) and four others that show up under ideal conditions.


I have no trouble picking up VHF as low as channel 8.


I am surrounded by a lot of opposing, taller hills, trees and most of my channels' directions overshoot the town and there is an FM tower a little over one mi away. I don't have a 5th gen tuner, either.


YMMV, but I'm happy with the CM 4228. The only other antenna that intrigues me is the XG-91.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oraphus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Based on the bellow info for my area what outdoor antenna would work best for me?
> 
> From what i undersrtand it should be bi-directional. Othe then that is their a real adavantage to having amplifoed vs non-amplefied antenna and if anyone can recommend one it would be much appreciated.



Somehow the REAL channel numbers (on the far right) didn't get posted,

so fol. is "close" (give or take 0.1 mile)--a couple miles S. of San Jose Airport:


DTV, Antenna Type, Call Sign, "Fake" Channel, Network, City, State, Live Date,

Compass, Miles, "Real" Channel Assignment

* yellow - uhf KKPX-DT 65.1 ION SAN JOSE CA 298° 37.8 41

* yellow - uhf KBCW-DT 44.1 CW SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 41.7 45

* yellow - uhf KCNS-DT 38.1 SAH SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 41.7 39

* yellow - uhf KGO-DT 7.1 ABC SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 41.7 24

* yellow - uhf KBWB-DT 20.1 IND SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 41.8 19

* yellow - uhf KPIX-DT 5.1 CBS SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 41.8 29

* yellow - uhf KTSF-DT 26.1 IND SAN FRANCISCO CA 298° 37.8 27

* yellow - uhf KTVU-DT 2.1 FOX OAKLAND CA 301° 41.7 56

* yellow - uhf KFSF-DT 66.1 TFA VALLEJO CA 301° 41.7 34

* yellow - uhf KQED-DT 9.1 PBS SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 41.7 30

* yellow - uhf KMTP-DT 33.1 IND SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 41.7 33

* yellow - vhf KNTV-DT 11.1 NBC SAN JOSE CA 297° 37.7 12

* yellow - uhf KCSM-DT 43.1 PBS SAN MATEO CA 301° 41.7 43

* yellow - uhf KDTV-DT 14.1 UNI SAN FRANCISCO CA 358° 12.7 51

* yellow - uhf KSTS-DT 48.1 TEL SAN JOSE CA 358° 12.7 49

* yellow - uhf KTEH-DT 54.1 PBS SAN JOSE CA 0° 12.1 50

* yellow - uhf KRON-DT 4.1 MNT SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 41.7 57

* yellow - uhf KICU-DT 36.1 IND SAN JOSE CA 0° 12.1 52

* red - uhf KSMS-DT 31.1 UNI MONTEREY CA 139° 20.7 31

* blue - uhf KTLN-DT 47.1 IND NOVATO CA 313° 68.0 47


Note that VHF CH12 is NBC-HD....and by Feb2009 several other stations

will revert to VHF....so a combo VHF/UHF is best....


All "yellow" stations are all within a few degrees of same heading.

Since other stations are dupes, why would you want the "red" and "blue" stations?

if you do, you'll need to add a rotator....and probably a higher gain UHF antenna.


Any of the mid-range VHF/UHF combo antennas at Fry's (Lowes, R-S, etc)

should be adequate, such as CM-4016 or CM-4018 Advantage models:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmadv.htm 


Preamp should not be needed....nearby stations are fairly close

and would preclude all except W-G HDP-269.


----------



## Konrad2

> I tried the 46XG


Is this the correct model number? Google couldn't find it.

There is a 42XG and a 43XG.
http://www.antennasdirect.com/42XG_t...n_antenna.html 
http://www.antennasdirect.com/43XG_digital_antenna.html 


Yeah it was 'fun' getting the elements into place. I managed to

do it without breaking anything. I guess none of the consumer

units are built the way we'd like them to be. Maybe the

commercial stuff like Blonder Tongue is better? At 10x the

price it ought to be.


While you have the PR-8800 in the attic, you could try improving

the reflector by adding some sheet aluminum. Sold for roof

flashing at hardware stores, Lowes, Home Depot, ...

This would catch a lot of wind outdoors, but not a problem in

the attic.


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> > I tried the 46XG
> 
> 
> Is this the correct model number? Google couldn't find it.
> 
> There is a 42XG and a 43XG.
> http://www.antennasdirect.com/42XG_t...n_antenna.html
> http://www.antennasdirect.com/43XG_digital_antenna.html
> 
> 
> Yeah it was 'fun' getting the elements into place. I managed to
> 
> do it without breaking anything. I guess none of the consumer
> 
> units are built the way we'd like them to be. Maybe the
> 
> commercial stuff like Blonder Tongue is better? At 10x the
> 
> price it ought to be.
> 
> 
> While you have the PR-8800 in the attic, you could try improving
> 
> the reflector by adding some sheet aluminum. Sold for roof
> 
> flashing at hardware stores, Lowes, Home Depot, ...
> 
> This would catch a lot of wind outdoors, but not a problem in
> 
> the attic.



It was the 43XG


----------



## Keenan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Somehow the REAL channel numbers (on the far right) didn't get posted,
> 
> so fol. is "close" (give or take 0.1 mile)--a couple miles S. of San Jose Airport:
> 
> 
> DTV, Antenna Type, Call Sign, "Fake" Channel, Network, City, State, Live Date,
> 
> Compass, Miles, "Real" Channel Assignment
> 
> * yellow - uhf KKPX-DT 65.1 ION SAN JOSE CA 298° 37.8 41
> 
> * yellow - uhf KBCW-DT 44.1 CW SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 41.7 45
> 
> * yellow - uhf KCNS-DT 38.1 SAH SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 41.7 39
> 
> * yellow - uhf KGO-DT 7.1 ABC SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 41.7 24
> 
> * yellow - uhf KBWB-DT 20.1 IND SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 41.8 19
> 
> * yellow - uhf KPIX-DT 5.1 CBS SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 41.8 29
> 
> * yellow - uhf KTSF-DT 26.1 IND SAN FRANCISCO CA 298° 37.8 27
> 
> * yellow - uhf KTVU-DT 2.1 FOX OAKLAND CA 301° 41.7 56
> 
> * yellow - uhf KFSF-DT 66.1 TFA VALLEJO CA 301° 41.7 34
> 
> * yellow - uhf KQED-DT 9.1 PBS SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 41.7 30
> 
> * yellow - uhf KMTP-DT 33.1 IND SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 41.7 33
> 
> * yellow - vhf KNTV-DT 11.1 NBC SAN JOSE CA 297° 37.7 12
> 
> * yellow - uhf KCSM-DT 43.1 PBS SAN MATEO CA 301° 41.7 43
> 
> * yellow - uhf KDTV-DT 14.1 UNI SAN FRANCISCO CA 358° 12.7 51
> 
> * yellow - uhf KSTS-DT 48.1 TEL SAN JOSE CA 358° 12.7 49
> 
> * yellow - uhf KTEH-DT 54.1 PBS SAN JOSE CA 0° 12.1 50
> 
> * yellow - uhf KRON-DT 4.1 MNT SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 41.7 57
> 
> * yellow - uhf KICU-DT 36.1 IND SAN JOSE CA 0° 12.1 52
> 
> * red - uhf KSMS-DT 31.1 UNI MONTEREY CA 139° 20.7 31
> 
> * blue - uhf KTLN-DT 47.1 IND NOVATO CA 313° 68.0 47
> 
> 
> Note that VHF CH12 is NBC-HD....and by Feb2009 several other stations
> 
> will revert to VHF....so a combo VHF/UHF is best....
> 
> 
> All "yellow" stations are all within a few degrees of same heading.
> 
> Since other stations are dupes, why would you want the "red" and "blue" stations?
> 
> if you do, you'll need to add a rotator....and probably a higher gain UHF antenna.
> 
> 
> Any of the mid-range VHF/UHF combo antennas at Fry's (Lowes, R-S, etc)
> 
> should be adequate, such as CM-4016 or CM-4018 Advantage models:
> http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmadv.htm
> 
> 
> Preamp should not be needed....nearby stations are fairly close
> 
> and would preclude all except W-G HDP-269.



Try the CODE switch, using brackets around CODE and /CODE.

Code:


Code:


*       yellow - uhf    KKPX-DT 65.1    ION     SAN JOSE        CA              298°    37.8    41
*       yellow - uhf    KBCW-DT 44.1    CW      SAN FRANCISCO   CA              301°    41.8    45
*       yellow - uhf    KCNS-DT 38.1    SAH     SAN FRANCISCO   CA              301°    41.7    39
*       yellow - uhf    KGO-DT  7.1     ABC     SAN FRANCISCO   CA              301°    41.7    24
*       yellow - uhf    KBWB-DT 20.1    IND     SAN FRANCISCO   CA              301°    41.8    19
*       yellow - uhf    KPIX-DT 5.1     CBS     SAN FRANCISCO   CA              301°    41.8    29
*       yellow - uhf    KTSF-DT 26.1    IND     SAN FRANCISCO   CA              298°    37.8    27
*       yellow - uhf    KTVU-DT 2.1     FOX     OAKLAND CA              301°    41.7    56
*       yellow - uhf    KFSF-DT 66.1    TFA     VALLEJO CA              301°    41.7    34
*       yellow - uhf    KQED-DT 9.1     PBS     SAN FRANCISCO   CA              301°    41.7    30
*       yellow - uhf    KMTP-DT 33.1    IND     SAN FRANCISCO   CA              301°    41.8    33
*       yellow - vhf    KNTV-DT 11.1    NBC     SAN JOSE        CA              297°    37.7    12
*       yellow - uhf    KCSM-DT 43.1    PBS     SAN MATEO       CA              301°    41.8    43
*       yellow - uhf    KDTV-DT 14.1    UNI     SAN FRANCISCO   CA              358°    12.7    51
*       yellow - uhf    KSTS-DT 48.1    TEL     SAN JOSE        CA              358°    12.7    49
*       yellow - uhf    KTEH-DT 54.1    PBS     SAN JOSE        CA              0°      12.1    50
*       yellow - uhf    KICU-DT 36.1    IND     SAN JOSE        CA              0°      12.1    52
*       yellow - uhf    KRON-DT 4.1     MNT     SAN FRANCISCO   CA              301°    41.7    57
*       red - uhf       KSMS-DT 31.1    UNI     MONTEREY        CA              139°    20.7    31
*       blue - uhf      KTLN-DT 47.1    IND     NOVATO  CA              313°    68.0    47


----------



## oraphus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Note that VHF CH12 is NBC-HD....and by Feb2009 several other stations
> 
> will revert to VHF....so a combo VHF/UHF is best....
> 
> 
> All "yellow" stations are all within a few degrees of same heading.
> 
> Since other stations are dupes, why would you want the "red" and "blue" stations?
> 
> if you do, you'll need to add a rotator....and probably a higher gain UHF antenna.
> 
> 
> Any of the mid-range VHF/UHF combo antennas at Fry's (Lowes, R-S, etc)
> 
> should be adequate, such as CM-4016 or CM-4018 Advantage models:
> http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmadv.htm
> 
> 
> Preamp should not be needed....nearby stations are fairly close
> 
> and would preclude all except W-G HDP-269.



Just yellow stations is all i am interested in and since they're all in pretty much the same direction i should be able to pick them up with almost any antenna acc to my understanding.

so would somethign like this work? http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...prod=ANWGS1100 

I am trying to stay away from the big bulky antenna for asthetic and ease of install reasons.


----------



## holl_ands

At 40 miles, you're a bit far out for that antenna....and it doesn't provide much suppression

of multipath coming from surrounding mountains.


If you're looking for a somewhat lower profile antenna, would the CM4228 fit the WAF???

It's one of the best UHF antennas, with moderate hi-VHF (CH7-13) performance.


Any of the 4-Bay antennas (CM-4221, W-G PR4400, AD DB-4) would work for UHF,

but may come up short for VHF stations....but is still worth trying.


----------



## paulstefano

A few posts up, I mentioned how I purchased a new Winegard PR8800 Antenna, and it was damaged out of the box.


I relayed my story to the Customer Service email address on Winegard's website, and they told me they'd send me another one!


They just earned a customer for life!


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paulstefano* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> They just earned a customer for life!




Before you commit to that, wait until you see what arrives










Just kidding. But please DO let us know about it. I'm on the fence about buying an 8800. The low UHF reception it's supposed to have is intriguing.


----------



## rviele




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Before you commit to that, wait until you see what arrives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just kidding. But please DO let us know about it. I'm on the fence about buying an 8800. The low UHF reception it's supposed to have is intriguing.



wasn't toby ziegler the presidents right hand man on west wing?


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Before you commit to that, wait until you see what arrives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just kidding. But please DO let us know about it. I'm on the fence about buying an 8800. The low UHF reception it's supposed to have is intriguing.




The 8800 appears to be great a pulling in Digital signals, especially from a wide angle. I'm pulling in FOX while the antenna is pointed 175 degrees away from the towers. It's not really doing what I hoped it would, but I have a bit of a unique situation, with an overly strong signal, and I really didn't expect it to.


I probably need to stagger stack. One of the reasons I wanted the 8800 is that I can take them apart and use them as 2 separate 4 bays and stagger them.


As I said, you can't beat the customer service.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rviele* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> wasn't toby ziegler the presidents right hand man on west wing?



Yeppers.....picked the name after him......love grumpy curmudgeons.


----------



## cwood

Having learned there are three low powered digital repeaters on the air in the area where I live, I purchased a Channel Master 4228 and a CM 0064 amplifier. Being an old time DXer, I did it more for the challenge than for the viewing because I already have two HD satellite systems.


The antenna arrived yesterday afternoon and not having time till this weekend to do a permanent roof install, I did a temporary hookup propping it against a patio chair about two feet above the ground and behind a concrete wall. To my surprise after doing a channel scan with the ATSC tuner in my SONY 50" I logged 27 channels with a high number of duplicated programs due to the number of repeaters scattered throughout this area. All of the digital signals were flawless.


I then decided to hook up the setup to my DISH 942 DVR. After autoscanning I only picked up 13 channels but all of the digitals came in at 100% signal strength and with the bonus of having the channels integrated in the program guide with the ability to DVR them.


This morning I decided to swing the antenna around about a 130 degrees to look at another hill about 12 miles away with a set of low power repeaters. After doing so I went inside and found a Lost Signal message on the screen. I assumed I might have shorted the 300 ohm connection at the antenna or have a wiring problem. After checking it out thoroughly I still had the problem. After going through some basic swap and reboot procedures I decided to hook the antenna back up to the SONY and lo and behold everything is fine. Returning it back to the DISH 942, the Lost Signal message returns. At this point I'm thinking I had a random, coincidental failure of the tuner in the 942.


Anyone have a clue or thought????


----------



## holl_ands

Perhaps the difference is because Dish 942 doesn't receive analog stations.


Per www.TVFool.com list of station locations (downloaded into Google Earth),

there are five DTV directions from St. George, UT:


1 mile N-W: 1 analog

1 mile S: 1 analog

3 miles S: 10 analog and 3 digital

3 miles S-E: 4 analog

17 miles W: 11 analog and 3 digital

25 miles E: 17 analog and 4 digital

31 miles N: 4 analog and 1 digital

34-48 miles N-E: 8 analog and 7 digital


They're everywhere!!!! They're everywhere!!!!


So that's about 56 analog and 18 digitals near St. George, plus whatever

might be possible further away....minus whatever isn't on the air yet...


And with so many occupied channels, there may be problems with

a particular channel making it difficult to receive adjacent and

next adjacent channel assignments....which depends on quality of tuner....


You should enter your location into www.antennaweb.org and www.tvfool.com 

in order to see what is possible and in what direction.


----------



## jtbell

How old are the TV and the DVR? If the TV is newer, it's possible that it has a better tuner (more sensitive and/or less prone to multipath interference, etc.).


----------



## ChocoLab




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Before you commit to that, wait until you see what arrives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just kidding. But please DO let us know about it. I'm on the fence about buying an 8800. The low UHF reception it's supposed to have is intriguing.



Just in case one person's story might help, our Fox station is on physical channel 15 and very tough to receive -- it's about 20 miles away and very low powered (still







). My PR-4400 wouldn't get it, so I got a PR-8800. This worked well, but only when the antenna was perfectly positioned. Hoping for more improvement, I got a CM 4228. The 4228 was worse; it barely got a signal at all. I compared the two over a period of several days, but the situation didn't change -- the 8800 was better every time. I ended up returning the 4228.


So for me, the Winegard definitely worked better on the lower channels, just as the HDTV Primer graphs show.


Oh, and also for the record, this was for an apartment patio, so I wasn't able to use a long yagi. But I've always wondered if the 9032 or other Winegard yagi would be even better, as the Winegard figures show. I've never understood why the Winegard gain figures are much better for their best yagi over their 8-bay, while CM has the 4228 as better than their best yagi.


Anyway, back to the 8800. Years later I got a CM 4228 when my Winegard became very beat up after numerous falls -- that's a downside to the lighter weight aluminum -- and I have to say that in analog testing of fringe UHF stations, I can't tell that the 4228 receives any better even on the mid UHF channels. If there's a difference, I'd bet it was because of the 4228's screen.


Here's something -- I've considered getting some good #10 copper wire and extending the length of the 4228's elements slightly to see how much that would improve the 4228 on the lower channels. Has anyone ever tried a modification like that?


----------



## oraphus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> At 40 miles, you're a bit far out for that antenna....and it doesn't provide much suppression
> 
> of multipath coming from surrounding mountains.
> 
> 
> If you're looking for a somewhat lower profile antenna, would the CM4228 fit the WAF???
> 
> It's one of the best UHF antennas, with moderate hi-VHF (CH7-13) performance.
> 
> 
> Any of the 4-Bay antennas (CM-4221, W-G PR4400, AD DB-4) would work for UHF,
> 
> but may come up short for VHF stations....but is still worth trying.



okay, bought a CM-4221 today at Fry's - BTW its on sale there for $29

will try it out and let you know.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ChocoLab* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Here's something -- I've considered getting some good #10 copper wire and extending the length of the 4228's elements slightly to see how much that would improve the 4228 on the lower channels. Has anyone ever tried a modification like that?



I've wondered the same thing. A while back (maybe a different thread...who can keep track?) I asked about optimizing UHF antennas. UHF used to span from channel 14 up to 83 (or 82, 84, somewhere up there). In the early 1980's UHF was trimmed back to channel 69 on the high end. Now it's about to be trimmed back to channel 51 for the most part. Has anyone redesigned the antennas for the narrower band, so that a bit more performance could be achieved? I've never heard anything definite about it.


But lengthening the elements would seem to be a step in that direction. Moving the screen a bit farther from the elements would seem to be in order too, but that would be more work. If I recall things I've read, the bowtie angle could be narrowed too. A straight dipole is best for a single frequency. A wider angle is better for a band of frequencies. So something inbetween the stock angle and a straight dipole would seem to be better for a narrower band of frequencies.


The antennas are built for outside installation. But if you're playing with one in an attic, you have more options, because you don't have to worry about icing or wind. Perhaps the screen can be improved by covering it with metal window screen or aluminum foil. Every dB helps, whether it's in gain, beam width, front to back ratio, whatever. Perhaps the screen could be widened too. And hey, one of the great things about playing with antennas is that you can experiment for minimal cost, with little risk of damage to equipment, and if something performs worse, you can put it back to how it was before you started. Just be careful about electrical safety, don't fall off a ladder/tower, and don't put your foot through your bedroom's drywall ceiling.


----------



## HD_crazy

How do I get HD reception through a regular antenna?? My friend just did it on his and he said all he did was run an auto scan as "antenna" on his TV setting and it started finding HD channels but it was uploading really slowly like downloading a file?


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> all he did was run an auto scan as "antenna" on his TV setting and it started finding HD channels



Yep.


> Quote:
> it was uploading really slowly like downloading a file



Uploading?. That is the scan process. It has to 'see' the channel, then ID that channel, then ID all of the sub channels. It takes awhile.

These aren't your fathers (grandfathers) TV's anymore.


BTW, where are you and welcome to the forums.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HD_crazy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How do I get HD reception through a regular antenna??



The term "HDTV antenna" is just a marketing gimmick. Digital TV (including HDTV) is broadcast in the same frequency bands (VHF and UHF) as analog TV. An antenna cares only about the frequency of the signal that it's receiving: a VHF antenna usually can't pick up UHF very well, and vice versa. Whether the content of the signal carried on that VHF or UHF channel is analog or digital doesn't matter until it gets to the TV's tuner (or set-top-box's tuner, for people using a standalone HDTV receiver).


Most of the so-called "HDTV antennas" have designs that are decades old.


----------



## videobruce

Don't forget to also specify "Color Approved".


----------



## oraphus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oraphus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> okay, bought a CM-4221 today at Fry's - BTW its on sale there for $29
> 
> will try it out and let you know.



wow... this thing rocks! I get all the HD stations clear - no artifacts. Huge improvement over the hyped up indoor Phillips I was using.. and it was just sitting on the floor in front of the tv.


Now i need to find where to mount it. Whats a good place to find a mounting kit for roof antenna?


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oraphus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> wow... this thing rocks! I get all the HD stations clear - no artifacts. Huge improvement over the hyped up indoor Phillips I was using.. and it was just sitting on the floor in front of the tv.
> 
> 
> Now i need to find where to mount it. Whats a good place to find a mounting kit for roof antenna?



Radio Shack is good for mounting supplies. They are also good because, so long as you don't screw the item up too badly, you can return it.


I have a 10 foot mast, attached to another 5 foot, mounted to my chimney with a wall mount. I got it all from Radio Shack. Oh, and this was all for my CM 4221.


----------



## sjv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oraphus* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> wow... this thing rocks! I get all the HD stations clear - no artifacts. Huge improvement over the hyped up indoor Phillips I was using.. and it was just sitting on the floor in front of the tv.
> 
> 
> Now i need to find where to mount it. Whats a good place to find a mounting kit for roof antenna?



Yes, it does rock! It depends how far you are from your stations (and terrain). I have my CM4221 mounted in the attic at the top at about 28' above ground. I'm 20-25 miles from all transmitters (flat) with a 8 degree spread and I get a signal 98 on all didital stations except one and it's at 90 degrees to the side (it's an independent that we don't watch anyway).


I used a simple PVC plastic pipe and a U clamp mounted to the very top roof rafter. Works like a dream!


----------



## Konrad2

> Whats a good place to find a mounting kit for roof antenna?


Lowes, Home Depot, ...


----------



## schnurmac




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HD_crazy* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> How do I get HD reception through a regular antenna?? My friend just did it on his and he said all he did was run an auto scan as "antenna" on his TV setting and it started finding HD channels but it was uploading really slowly like downloading a file?



You will need a UHF antenna. Also a HD TV with a digital tuner. Some TVs don't have a tuner. I know allot of people who thought they got a good deal a TV with no tuner. Or a set top box with an antenna input. I have my antenna run into a coax splitter then to my TV and the other to my DT receiver so I can use picture in picture. Once you have it connected go to menu on tv and scan for available channels. As asked before where are you located. Others here can tell you what you can get as far as channels and what kind and size of antenna to get. If you live in a city you may get away with a small indoor one. I do mine is this one. http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Phili...oductDetail.do


----------



## b233314

Has anyone looked at the Terrestrial Digital PF7 Picture Frame Antenna? I am about 18kms (11 miles) from my tower signal source. I am only looking to pull down my local OTA HD signal.


Thanks in advance!


----------



## Don F.

CPCAT & RICK0725 About that 91GX you guys recommended.


When it arrived the box was not impressive, upon unpacking, it looked like a toy from K-tel (that was a long time ago). All those gold plastic looking elements, man ....I felt like Mr. T on a pole.

But all is well!!!!


It will not be mounted in its proper place until this week-end, but in it's present position it is very impressive. I am holding three Atlanta day time signals, and in the evening two more channels join the steady stream. These stations are 80 miles away. I have pretty good elevation and a cm 7777 in line. I am adding a rotor and going up another 10 ft this week end, hopefully I will not screw it up. Thanks for info on the 91gx.


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paulstefano* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The 8800 appears to be great a pulling in Digital signals, especially from a wide angle. I'm pulling in FOX while the antenna is pointed 175 degrees away from the towers. It's not really doing what I hoped it would, but I have a bit of a unique situation, with an overly strong signal, and I really didn't expect it to.
> 
> 
> I probably need to stagger stack. One of the reasons I wanted the 8800 is that I can take them apart and use them as 2 separate 4 bays and stagger them.
> 
> 
> As I said, you can't beat the customer service.



Update, I got my replacement PR 8800 from Winegard in the mail yesterday. It was in much better shape than the one I bought locally. Based on the paint and the packaging, I now think the one I bought locally, might have been a return, oh well.


So, I put it on my mast, 40 feet in the air, and hooked it up. Unfortunately, I had similar results. Good reception on WPMT analog (channel 43), Solid signal on Digital Channel 49 (some independent station, I had previously pulled in), and no Digital WPMT (Channel 47). The only difference was I could also pull in WBAL with a solid 60% signal. Weird since the tower is 180 degrees from where I was pointing.


The other bit of good news was there was no WBFF DT (channel 46) at all. It would appear then, the bulk of my problems are interference from WBFF Analog (Channel 45).


I tried this with both my HDP-269 pre-amp in the line, and without. The analog signal on 43, was much cleaner with the amp. It would appear, that the amp does help with the long runs.


paul


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paulstefano* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...there was no WBFF DT (channel 46) at all. It would appear then, the bulk of my problems are interference from WBFF Analog (Channel 45)...



Things are not as they seem. The PR-8800 will have about the same gain and front-to-back characteristics on channel 46 as it does on channel 45. You have almost exactly the same ratio of channel 45 signal power to channel 46 signal power now as you did before, but for technical reasons, your receiver simply is unable to develop a lock on that defective channel 46 data stream and is generating a no-signal message. You are farther away from a solution than you think.


> Quote:
> I tried this with both my HDP-269 pre-amp in the line, and without. The analog signal on 43, was much cleaner with the amp. It would appear, that the amp does help with the long runs.



.


Not necessarily. with channel 43, you are trying to sustain an analog channel at about 30 to 40 dB above the thermal noise floor. With channel 46, you may be trying to either boost this much weaker signal above the receiver's input threshold or to at least maintain a S/N ratio of 16dB without qualitatively degrading it through intermodulation distortion. While the preamp visibly improved the analog channel 43, it may be helping or hindering your reception of digital 47.


At this point, you either have to erect a hundred foot mast or try phase canceling. The quarter wave stack solution does not require any sophisticated test equipment to implement.


----------



## ChocoLab




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don F.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> CPCAT & RICK0725 About that 91GX you guys recommended.
> 
> 
> When it arrived the box was not impressive, upon unpacking, it looked like a toy from K-tel (that was a long time ago). All those gold plastic looking elements, man ....I felt like Mr. T on a pole.
> 
> But all is well!!!!
> 
> 
> It will not be mounted in its proper place until this week-end, but in it's present position it is very impressive. I am holding three Atlanta day time signals, and in the evening two more channels join the steady stream. These stations are 80 miles away. I have pretty good elevation and a cm 7777 in line. I am adding a rotor and going up another 10 ft this week end, hopefully I will not screw it up. Thanks for info on the 91gx.



Good info, Don, I hope you'll let us know how it works once you get it put up.


Yesterday I again was fiddling with my 4228 and once again, I was disappointed in its performance. An old Radio Shack U-75 (or whatever the $24.95 Yagi was called) does almost as well, and the XG42 I have seems to do better. I'd almost think something was wrong with the 4228, but it looks perfect -- nothing bent or anything of that nature.


I actually tried ordering that Jaycar version that's very similar to the 91XG, but the transaction failed twice. They may have finally caught on to that super-cheap shipping from Australia. I hate to pay close to $100 for a "tinkering" application, but if the XG91 is really that good, and really that much better than the PR-9032 from Winegard, I may do it anyway.


----------



## Rick0725

I prefer the 91xg over the pr9032 and would intall one anyway.


----------



## ToddUGA

Yep, I've been super happy with my 91XG. Much better for UHF than the CM 3671 I was using.


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Things are not as they seem. The PR-8800 will have about the same gain and front-to-back characteristics on channel 46 as it does on channel 45. You have almost exactly the same ratio of channel 45 signal power to channel 46 signal power now as you did before, but for technical reasons, your receiver simply is unable to develop a lock on that defective channel 46 data stream and is generating a no-signal message. You are farther away from a solution than you think.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> Not necessarily. with channel 43, you are trying to sustain an analog channel at about 30 to 40 dB above the thermal noise floor. With channel 46, you may be trying to either boost this much weaker signal above the receiver's input threshold or to at least maintain a S/N ratio of 16dB without qualitatively degrading it through intermodulation distortion. While the preamp visibly improved the analog channel 43, it may be helping or hindering your reception of digital 47.
> 
> 
> At this point, you either have to erect a hundred foot mast or try phase canceling. The quarter wave stack solution does not require any sophisticated test equipment to implement.



Yeah, I'm working on a quarter wave stack solution. I'm going to try a Jointenna (that I already ordered) first, and if that doesn't work, I plan to pull apart my PR-8800, essentially making it 2 PR-4400s and stack them. I already cut the wires to the proper length, in preparation!


----------



## Don F.




ChocoLab said:


> Good info, Don, I hope you'll let us know how it works once you get it put up.
> 
> 
> With a lot of help from my brother-n-law, the XG is in its new location. It continues to deliver good results. I wanted to get more height, and in order to do that, a lateral move of about 15ft. was needed in order to guy the new combo.. The combo includes the XG91, a Winegard YA1713, cm preamp, and cm rotor. With addition of another 10 ft. I had hopes of increasing signal strength, but none improved. I believe the original location is the sweet sport, but no way to guy the now heavy load. The XG is about 30ft. above gound.
> 
> Both TV fool and Antenna web indicate Atlanta would be a challenge in my area, so I am very pleased with the results. I live on one of several ridges that run through my county.
> 
> The YA 1713 ads NBC dt ch 10. Their signal strength is not the strongest but very stable, all the other stations are uhf, with signal swings depending on atmospheric conditions.
> 
> My previous attempt to pull in these stations was with a cm 4248, which resulted in two fairly steady signals. The XG91/YA 1713 combo gives me four daytime signals on a regular basis, and up to seven at night. Of course all are subject to break-up from time to time. That can be expected at an 80 mile distance.
> 
> I am sold on the XG91.


----------



## sjv

Dumb question here:







Is it possible to combine a cable feed (sd & hd) with an antenna feed (HD), using a diplexer, to a single cable outlet to the TV?









Thanks


----------



## WJonathan

After many hours of experimentation with different models of indoor antennas, I wanted to mention that best low cost amped traditional style (loop & rabbit ears) antenna I tried was a $10 model at Big Lots. I tried a bunch of junk from Philips, an RCA, and a few other brands including a $40 outdoor Philips model, and the best one in terms of both reception and amplification clarity was the Big Lots model. It's a generic brand in a red and black box for $9.99, and I believe the amplification is 24 db. Anyone looking for a cheap indoor antenna to improve marginal local signals should give this one a go first. Hope that helps somebody.


----------



## Bob Coxner

I'm looking for recommendations on an indoor antenna. My situation from antennaweb is:


yellow - uhf KWKT-DT 44.1 FOX WACO TX 195° 9.8 57

yellow - uhf KWTX-DT 10.1 CBS WACO TX 193° 9.1 53

yellow - uhf KWBU-DT 34.1 PBS WACO TX 202° 9.8 20

green - vhf KCEN-DT 9.1 NBC TEMPLE TX 161° 12.4 9

red - uhf KXXV-DT 25.1 ABC WACO TX 193° 8.0 26

red - uhf KNCT-DT 46.1 PBS BELTON TX 209° 38.4 38


I'm currently using an old Radio Shack rabbit ears antenna 15-1864. My typical signal strengths (as reported by my HR20-700 DirecTV DVR) are:


Channel 9.1 = 65% to 70% (generally good but occasional pixelation)

10.1 = 100% (always good)

25.1 = 100% (always good)

34.1 = 50% to 80% (quality bounces around a lot, moderate video/audio dropouts)

44.1 = 40% (the quality is actually pretty good, with only occasional dropouts)

46.1 = 0%


My major problem is 9.1 vs 44.1. If I tweak to get a better 9.1 I lose 44.1 entirely. If I tweak to get a better 44.1 then I either lose 9.1 or it gets really bad. To get all of them I'm right on the razor's edge. I had to tweak for an hour to get reception on all channels and even then I still have the 9.1 and 44.1 problems that come and go. I would also like for 34.1 to be more stable. It would be nice if I could get 46.1 but it's not critical.


I'd prefer an antenna that's sold by Amazon, given their liberal return policies. In my situation, does anyone have any thoughts about the


Terk HDTVi or HDTVa

Philips PHDTV3 or PHDTV1

Jensen TV931


I wish I could go with a pure UHF antenna but, if I read antennaweb correct, 9.1 is their final landing spot.


Thanks!


----------



## WJonathan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bob Coxner* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm looking for recommendations on an indoor antenna. My situation from antennaweb is:...
> 
> I wish I could go with a pure UHF antenna but, if I read antennaweb correct, 9.1 is their final landing spot.
> 
> 
> Thanks!



Ok, does your current antenna have a loop, or just poles?


I have been in a similar situation here in Richmond VA where I live near the towers but reception is affected by my altitude and treelines. My final solution after a lot of experimentation is "cheap antenna, quality amplifier".


If you have a Big Lots nearby, try the $3 unamped loop n pole antenna they sell. Being multidirectional. it can be positioned to grab channels from a few different angles. And I have had the best luck with these cheap, simple models of generic Big Lots antennas than any of the name brand trash made by Philips, RCA etc sold at retail.


My final solution has been to gang a Zenith Silver Sensor together with a cheap Big Lots loop and pole together with a $4 GE splitter/combiner, and run it through a Leviton 25 db amp to clear up a few of the weak signals. I got the amp, which has an FM trap and a variable gain dial, new off ebay for $20. The two antennas have been positioned just right to prevent mulitpathing.


The reason I went through all this was because only one TV in the house is digital, with two remaining old analogue TVs. I wanted to run it all through the currently unsused cable box, to avoid antennas in the house. Of course, the analogue towers are all over town, with one being 180 deg from the rest. The digital towers are all clustered to gether. So the Silver Sensor, which is a great unidirectional antenna, picks up the digital towers, and the other handles the off-angle analogue ones. I have 90+ signal strength on the digitals, and good reception on the analogues with a touch of ghosting.


BTW I have an XBR970 too. Nice set isnt it.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sjv* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Dumb question here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it possible to combine a cable feed (sd & hd) with an antenna feed (HD), using a diplexer, to a single cable outlet to the TV?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks



NO!!!!! You would need to use an RF Switch.


Cable systems populate EVERY OTA channel position, which would swamp the weak OTA signal in the combiner.


There isn't all that much reverse isolation in the combiner, so the high level cable signals

could ALSO leak out via your OTA antenna, which is an FCC violation,

and could result in your neighbors receiving a duplicate, delayed version (i.e. ghosting).


And BTW, there are ALSO cable frequencies outside the OTA TV bands.....oops....

and the intermods and harmonics are EVERYWHERE....


The cable company would also be upset if you re-distributed their extra-cost analog tier.


----------



## videobruce

If this is you;
http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/maps...onf=mapnew.con 


Then this is what you get;
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/defaul...=Show+Stations 


Looks like you are either too close or too far away. The five networks you should be able to receive with just about anything.

If you want the distant stuff, you will probably have a problem (if it is even possible which I doubt, at least because of overload from the locals).


Too bad you have that oddball VHF station (NBC 9.1) to contend with. Most UHF antennas will receive the high band ok. Since they are not in the same direction you really need to be able to turn the antenna. Do you have a attic or crawl space (or access to) where you are? How about a large closet with a open ceiling area where an antenna could be placed?


It's best to use the actual channel numbers (another reason I don't like antennaweb). The only VHF you have is the one I mentioned;


25.1 ABC

9.1 NBC

53.1 CBS

57.1 FOX

20.1 PBS


The only other VHF stations are; 13.1, (Univision) 63 miles away, a low power 12.1 (72 miles) and another 9.1 (86 miles low power).


Bang for the buck, this is still my recomemded choice (and at the same price for the SS clones, under $20);
http://www.eagleaspen.com/products/products_1.php?id=49


----------



## Falcon_77

It looks like CC is dropping this antenna? If so, that is sad, considering how well it works for its size.


I have still been able to find it in Fry's, though it is harder to find in some of those as well. The San Marcos, CA store had a bunch when I drove by there last. Other than that, they have been very hard to find in any retail store.


I certainly hope it is still being produced. It is a very handy test antenna and works well enough as a regular antenna for a few locations.


Does anyone have insight on what is happening to the Silver Sensor?


----------



## WJonathan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> It looks like CC is dropping this antenna? If so, that is sad, considering how well it works for its size.
> 
> 
> I have still been able to find it in Fry's, though it is harder to find in some of those as well. The San Marcos, CA store had a bunch when I drove by there last. Other than that, they have been very hard to find in any retail store.
> 
> 
> I certainly hope it is still being produced. It is a very handy test antenna and works well enough as a regular antenna for a few locations.
> 
> 
> Does anyone have insight on what is happening to the Silver Sensor?



It's agreat antenna, assuming your towers are lined up a few degress from each other. I know Philips still makes it, and even if CC drops it plenty of online retailers still carry it. A bunch of independent retailers still sell it on Amazon. I just bought the _Zenith_ model brand new from soembody off ebay, so the Philips manufactured ones should still be in warehouses for a while even if LG/Philips discontinues them.


----------



## sjv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> NO!!!!! You would need to use an RF Switch........



Thanks for your response. I'm showing my ignorance here but what's an RF switch?


----------



## jtbell

RF = Radio Frequency. It's a common shorthand for the signal from an antenna or cable. What you need is a box with two coaxial-cable inputs and one output (screw-on connectors), and a switch that selects the input you want to use. You can get a small manual switch at Radio Shack or Wal-Mart for a few dollars, or you can spend more for a remote-control switch.


----------



## dxernut




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ChocoLab* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Good info, Don, I hope you'll let us know how it works once you get it put up.
> 
> 
> Yesterday I again was fiddling with my 4228 and once again, I was disappointed in its performance. An old Radio Shack U-75 (or whatever the $24.95 Yagi was called) does almost as well, and the XG42 I have seems to do better. I'd almost think something was wrong with the 4228, but it looks perfect -- nothing bent or anything of that nature.
> 
> 
> I actually tried ordering that Jaycar version that's very similar to the 91XG, but the transaction failed twice. They may have finally caught on to that super-cheap shipping from Australia. I hate to pay close to $100 for a "tinkering" application, but if the XG91 is really that good, and really that much better than the PR-9032 from Winegard, I may do it anyway.



I own a 4228 and a 91XG antenna. The 91XG Blows away the 4228 in my situation. Also very light. Have heard 2 91xgs side by side works great for mulitipath, but I have enough money invested in these antennas!


----------



## ChocoLab

Don F. and dxernut -- Thanks!










In a way, I'm almost disappointed because just late Friday afternoon, I found out that a local wholesale electronic outfit sells CM 4248s for 40-something dollars. After several internet/mail orders and road trips to Frys a hundred miles away to pick up different antennas, I couldn't believe that someone in my small city had some good ones right under my nose!


I was really tempted to try one, except that I guess the 4248 and 4228 are pretty comparable... Or at least, most posts I've read seem to think that. Is that what people here have found?


Hate to pay almost double the 4248's price, but if the 91 is that good, I guess I'll end up doing it...


By the way, Don F.: If you see see this post, how far away again is the channel 10 you're getting with the YA-1713? I have a far-off channel 11 I wish I could get, and that might be a cheap way to try it. (I'd love to try that huge Funke, but I'm not sure I have room for it.)


Thanks again, guys. Good stuff.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ChocoLab* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Hate to pay almost double the 4248's price, but if the 91 is that good, I guess I'll end up doing it...



The performance XG91 is excellent. Because of it's "X" directors, expect a couple of db more gain than the 4248 on the upper end of the UHF spectrum. But, those "X" directors add more weight and wind resistance.


The 4248 has a larger and wider corner reflector than does the XG91, so that could make the 4248 stronger on the low end of the UHF spectrum, but probably not by much, maybe one or two db.


Personally, I just like the looks of the XG91, but suspect it's performance to be very similar to other manufacturers high gain antennas.


----------



## Don F.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ChocoLab* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Don F. and dxernut -- Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was really tempted to try one, except that I guess the 4248 and 4228 are pretty comparable... Or at least, most posts I've read seem to think that. Is that what people here have found?
> 
> 
> Hate to pay almost double the 4248's price, but if the 91 is that good, I guess I'll end up doing it...
> 
> 
> By the way, Don F.: If you see see this post, how far away again is the channel 10 you're getting with the YA-1713? I have a far-off channel 11 I wish I could get, and that might be a cheap way to try it. (I'd love to try that huge Funke, but I'm not sure I have room for it.)
> 
> 
> Thanks again, guys. Good stuff.



I have no experience with the 4228, but many in my area use one with good results. The 4248 is not as heavy and data says it is better in the upper vhf range. I was pleased with my 4248 (I paid $70) and its ability to pick up the Carolina stations, but my "mission" was to receive Atlanta. Four counties here in N E Ga. are in the Greenville dma, which means if you use satellite your "locals" are Carolina not Georgia, and I have beaten that horse to death.

The XG has outperformed the 4248 in receiving the Atlanta signals, enabling me to actually view news, weather, & sports from my own state.

I would advise you to get the xg91, and put to rest any doubt that will be in your head, if you buy the 4248.

The ya-1713 is doing a good job with ch. 11, 80 miles away. A few daytime drop-outs on ocassion, but at sunset ch 11 (dt 10 ) becomes very steady.

Your location and terrain will of course be the deciding factor. Most of the transmitters in Atlanta are about 2-thousand feet above sea level, and my location is 1-thousand feet above, with two edges inbetween, so says tv fool.

Good luck....


----------



## EArkHog

I bought a nice TV with digital tuner and I've been loving the improved PQ. I began messing around with the old attic VHF/UHF antenna, trying to perfect the reception. After several weeks, I moved the antenna up to the chimney, and was very surprised to discover that there was little, if any, improvement in PQ. I still had problems during the day - certain channels with macroblocking (term?), picture freezing, ... the usual stuff for digital reception.


I got tired of messin' around with it, so I bought a Channel Master 4228, and I thought I had finally licked the problem for good. My location is about 30 miles from all broadcast towers. And lucky for me, every broadcast antenna is pretty well grouped in a narrow (20 deg) range. (zip code 72301)


More than a few times, after spending hours bouncing (ha ha, I'm 56 - "bouncing" - right) between the top of the chimney and the living room, I went to bed happy that I finally achieved some really good reception (like 95 to 100 on the meter for every channel). But then the next morning, there it was again (on those same few problem channels) - those damned macro blocks. What really bugs me is that one of my problem channels is the excellent PBS station with all the HD broadcasts.


I am inclined to suspect the tree adjacent to the house is at least part of my problem. But that tree don't go nowhere at night, and my PQ is excellent after dark.


I am afraid that throwing money (i.e., channel master 7777 preamp) at this stuborn problem isn't going to solve it. I don't know if the problem is due to differences in the broadcast at night compared to the daytime, of if there is something about how the RF signal travels during the day vs. night.


I am concerned about overloading. But I don't know what else to do.


Ideas? Suggestions? Valium?


----------



## MeowMeow

At 30 mi overload shouldn't be an issue. However, getting the antenna away from the tree would be the better option if feasible.


I have the CM 4228 with the CM 7777, and I have four channels at 40 mi through a tree. Three are solid locks all the time. The fourth I've never seen, but it has two side channels and a co-channel all with in 80mi, so you could have a hard time blaming the tree.


I'd strongly suggest trying to move the antenna around if possible.


If you have a long run (50' plus) throw on the CM 7777. Remember, the preamp is meant to hold a signal over a long run of cable. it cannot magically make the reception better.


----------



## EArkHog




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MeowMeow* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> At 30 mi overload shouldn't be an issue. However, getting the antenna away from the tree would be the better option if feasible.
> 
> 
> I have the CM 4228 with the CM 7777, and I have four channels at 40 mi through a tree. Three are solid locks all the time. The fourth I've never seen, but it has two side channels and a co-channel all with in 80mi, so you could have a hard time blaming the tree.
> 
> 
> I'd strongly suggest trying to move the antenna around if possible.
> 
> 
> If you have a long run (50' plus) throw on the CM 7777. Remember, the preamp is meant to hold a signal over a long run of cable. it cannot magically make the reception better.



Okay, thanks. I've got the 7777 on order (cable run is 100 ft.). I'm glad to know it won't hurt my reception, at least.


If I cut down that tree, there's still another tree in the neighbor's yard 50 feet away. And another tree after that - etc. I guess my neighborhood is just 'tree infested', or shady, depending on how you look at it.


I did some pruning this weekend to clear out branches and twigs within about 15 feet of the antenna. I damn near killed myself up in that tree, but it didn't seem to make any difference to the PQ. (grrrr)


Anyone have any thoughts about the daytime /night time difference in reception "phenomenon"?


----------



## MeowMeow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EArkHog* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts about the daytime /night time difference in reception "phenomenon"?



That's just the diurnal cycle. The atmosphere heats and cools. The end consequence is that the reflection of the signal changes between day and night.


This will also shift as fall and winter come. Generally, these shifts are positive.


And when the trees lose their leaves, you might see some better signal from that, too.


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> At 30 mi overload shouldn't be an issue.



Better look at the link I provided. He has stations less than 10 miles away. That amp will be swamped as any other will.


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> yagi style is suited best and bowties handle the situation worst



Rick, please explain why.


Regarding that Winegard preamp, you don't think any preamp will be overload with that many stations 8-10 miles away?? I saw your thread in two other forums, have you found any plain 'amps' that have a very high input level capibility? The best I found was discontinued many years ago, but still may be available (Winegard DA-1018).


----------



## MeowMeow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Better look at the link I provided. He has stations less than 10 miles away. That amp will be swamped as any other will.



Missed that 10 mi stations part. My bad. Good catch.


----------



## videobruce

Since I don't know exactly where he is, that location was based on what the Tiger Map Server showed (which I know is not the best source).


----------



## KenL




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Better look at the link I provided. He has stations less than 10 miles away. That amp will be swamped as any other will.



Who has that many stations 10 miles away?


Looks like *MeowMeow* was addressing EArkHog near Memphis (72301) and from that zip looks to be only a single (low power) station within 10 miles. Most around 25 miles or more away. Anything fading during the day (from weak signal) surely isn't strong enough to appreciably overload an amp and likely not a receiver for that matter, after 100 feet of coax. Of course 30 miles away and fading could be other issues, I'd want to check the corresponding analogs.


----------



## EArkHog

[/quote] the only times I have an issue with amplification is if the user is not content with just receiving the local market stations...but also want to receive stations in the next market or 2. you really do not need an amp in the suburbs unless the coax runs are long and split many times. and gain should be minimal under 30 miles.


I tend to install oversized antennas anyways and not smaller and have to amplify and deal with the issues associated with overamplification. many of the distribution amps that I have tried just do not suit my needs and have instead used the hdp 269 as a distribution amp.


the boonies are another process all together different.[/quote]

I bought the CM 4228 thinking it was oversized for the distance, and being less direction might do better at picking up signals filtering through the trees. But those thoughts were not based on any understanding of how this stuff really works.


I checked antennaweb again. You're right - it's not 30 miles. I've got 3 stations that are 25 miles out and 3 that are 20 miles out. I am interested only in the digital broadcasts, which are currently all UHF (hence the bowties).


I am afraid "suck it up" is what I'm stuck with. That and a brand new 7777.


You guys have great. Thanks.


----------



## Konrad2

I'm experimenting with signal levels, and increasing the signal level

(remove attenuators & splitters) helps some of the stations, both analog

and digital. But if I remove the last splitter then I get diagonal lines

on a low power analog UHF station (54). 54 needs about 6-8 DB of attenuation

(a 7.4 dB 4-way splitter is about right) to knock the lines down. But being

a weak station it is starting to flirt with snow. Another few dB (like a

3-way splitter) and there is significant snow. So I'm thinking it must not

be 54 that is too strong, this must be interference from the stronger TV

stations. I have the FM band trapped out, not using a preamp or dist amp.


Are diagonal lines a symptom of intermodulation distortion? Is there a way

to tell if reception problems on digital stations are from IMD?


Using the formulas on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodulation 

I wrote a shell script to see what stations would give IMD, assuming a general

case where any frequency within the 6 MHz band could do it. With NTSC it would

most likely be the carriers that do the damage, but half the stations are ATSC.


Output for three of the more problematic stations:


chan30 (566-572MHz) - chan33 (584-590MHz) hurts chan27 (548-554MHz) via 2f1-f2 IMD

chan33 (584-590MHz) - chan40 (626-632MHz) hurts chan27 (548-554MHz) via 2f1-f2 IMD

chan40 (626-632MHz) - chan5 (72-78MHz) hurts chan27 (548-554MHz) via f1-f2 IMD

chan40 (626-632MHz) - chan6 (82-88MHz) hurts chan27 (548-554MHz) via f1-f2 IMD

chan40 (626-632MHz) - chan54 (710-716MHz) hurts chan27 (548-554MHz) via 2f1-f2 IMD


chan2 (54-60MHz) + chan24 (530-536MHz) hurts chan33 (584-590MHz) via f1+f2 IMD

chan30 (566-572MHz) - chan27 (548-554MHz) hurts chan33 (584-590MHz) via 2f1-f2 IMD

chan40 (626-632MHz) - chan46 (662-668MHz) hurts chan33 (584-590MHz) via 2f1-f2 IMD

chan40 (626-632MHz) - chan48 (674-680MHz) hurts chan33 (584-590MHz) via 2f1-f2 IMD

chan43 (644-650MHz) - chan2 (54-60MHz) hurts chan33 (584-590MHz) via f1-f2 IMD

chan43 (644-650MHz) - chan54 (710-716MHz) hurts chan33 (584-590MHz) via 2f1-f2 IMD

chan46 (662-668MHz) - chan5 (72-78MHz) hurts chan33 (584-590MHz) via f1-f2 IMD

chan46 (662-668MHz) - chan6 (82-88MHz) hurts chan33 (584-590MHz) via f1-f2 IMD

chan48 (674-680MHz) - chan6 (82-88MHz) hurts chan33 (584-590MHz) via f1-f2 IMD


chan4 (66-72MHz) + chan43 (644-650MHz) hurts chan54 (710-716MHz) via f1+f2 IMD

chan6 (82-88MHz) + chan40 (626-632MHz) hurts chan54 (710-716MHz) via f1+f2 IMD

chan8 (180-186MHz) + chan24 (530-536MHz) hurts chan54 (710-716MHz) via f1+f2 IMD

chan40 (626-632MHz) - chan27 (548-554MHz) hurts chan54 (710-716MHz) via 2f1-f2 IMD

chan43 (644-650MHz) - chan33 (584-590MHz) hurts chan54 (710-716MHz) via 2f1-f2 IMD

chan48 (674-680MHz) - chan43 (644-650MHz) hurts chan54 (710-716MHz) via 2f1-f2 IMD

chan49 (680-686MHz) - chan43 (644-650MHz) hurts chan54 (710-716MHz) via 2f1-f2 IMD


2 is 100 KW NTSC

4 is 16 KW ATSC

5 is 2.7 KW NTSC

6 is 100 KW NTSC

8 is 316 KW NTSC

24 is 2690 KW NTSC

27 is 381 KW ATSC

30 is 741 KW ATSC

33 is 750 KW ATSC

40 is 839 KW ATSC

43 is 500 KW ATSC

46 is 1000 KW ATSC

48 is 200 KW ATSC

49 is 2950 KW NTSC

54 is 105 KW NTSC


But I also get hits for stations with very good reception.

48 comes in fine despite being adjacent to the strong 49.

Some digital stations come in better with more signal strength,

while others come in the same over a wide range. Some stations

frequently come in 100% perfect with a reported signal quality of

55%, while other stations consistantly have errors with a

reported signal quality of 95%.


One thing I'm trying to figure out is if I should use am amp to make up for

splitting the line several ways (at least 4 ways). But if the TV is getting

overloaded when not using a splitter, an amp would likely be overloaded

as well. Or would it?


Am I barking up the right tree? Or it it something else (not IMD) that is

creating the diagonal lines?


----------



## nybbler

Any chance that Qualcomm is broadcasting on channel 55 in your area? That's another possible source of intermod products.


If it's coming from channel 49, you could probably play games like using two Jointennas to split channel 54 out, amplify it separately, and join it back in. If it's channel 55 (adjacent), things get much harder (read: more expensive).


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Are diagonal lines a symptom of intermodulation distortion? Is there a way to tell if reception problems on digital stations are from IMD?
> 
> 
> Am I barking up the right tree? Or it it something else (not IMD) that is
> 
> creating the diagonal lines?



Tracing intermod can be hard, but your detailed explanation of the symptoms suggest that you are up to the task. Eliminate one of the two signals in the list that you posted and look for the interference. If the lines are still there, the filtered out suspect station is not the cause.


The layman's method to trace the source is creative use of filtering. For instance, a VHF/UHF band Joiner/Splitter can be used as a low pass filter to eliminate the VHF signal from getting to the tuner. This could be used eliminate the possibility of VHF stations intermoding with the UHF stations. I saw that on my antenna. At different times I took out the low band VHF stations by using a 4228 UHF only antenna and again by using a AP-4700 UHF only preamp.


Difficult FM interference may take two FM traps. Channel 54 is the 7th harmonic of 101.5 through 102.3 and the 8th harmonic of 88.7 through 89.5.


A single channel filter is very useful for troubleshooting, but they are expensive.


It may be helpful if you were willing to post your distance from the transmitters or even your exact location.


----------



## Konrad2

Code:


Code:


zip: 97005
antennas: Winegard PR-8800 and YA-1713
coax: Philips RG6 quad shield
diplexor: Picomacom UVSJ
filters:
        Picomacom HPF-54MHZ  54 MHz high pass  no attenuation spec

        3 95-108 MHz FM traps 20 dB each
         [URL='http://www.mpja.com/prodinfo.asp?number=4252+TV']http://www.mpja.com/prodinfo.asp?number=4252+TV[/URL] 

        1 88-108 MHz FM trap  no attenuation spec
         [URL='http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?catalog_name=MCMProducts&product_id=33-341&CMP=datafeeds&ATT=froogle']http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?...ds&ATT=froogle[/URL] 

        I suspect the FM traps are similar to
         [URL='http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interference/fm/frqrsp.jpg']http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interference/fm/frqrsp.jpg[/URL] 
         [URL='http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interference/fm/sfmtrap.jpg']http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interference/fm/sfmtrap.jpg[/URL] 

        ferrite sleeves to knock down common mode

splitter: Monster Cable 1 Ghz 4-way  7.4 dB

The antennas are in the attic, "looking" through wood clapboards.

Adding the 2nd 95-108 trap helped.  I'm not sure if the third is
doing anything significant.  But they didn't fix channel 6, so...

The 88-108 trap is to knock down KBVM 88.3 FM which interferes
with channel 6 audio.  More than one of these damages channel 6
too much.

I removed the 4-way splitter and verified the return of diagonal
lines on chan 54.  I disconnected the VHF-HI antenna and replaced
it with a terminator at the diplexor.  The diagonal lines on chan 54
disappeared, there is a hint of snow.  And/or possibly a form of
interference that looks similar to snow, like FM.

This diplexor isn't much of a filter.  Channel 8 still comes in
perfectly, chan 10 and 12 have a little snow but are still pretty
good.  The VHF-LO analogs are still there but very snowy.  I didn't
check digital chan 4.

nybbler> Any chance that Qualcomm is broadcasting on channel 55 in your area?
nybbler> That's another possible source of intermod products.

The web says they are putting out 50,000 Watts ERP.  What's the deal?
I thought they had to wait until 2009?

Tower Guy> Difficult FM interference may take two FM traps. Channel 54 is
Tower Guy> the 7th harmonic of 101.5 through 102.3 and the 8th harmonic
Tower Guy> of 88.7 through 89.5.

So the 7th and 8th harmonics are strong enough to worry about?  If the 88-108
trap is also 20 dB minimum, then most of the FM band should be at least 80 dB
down.  I suspect that at some point the amount leaking in past the crappy
F connectors and the epoxy sealed back will be as much as an additional filter
would help.  The traps don't help with the common mode, hence the ferrite
sleeves.  No specs on those but the FM interference on chan 10 (visual, unlike
chan 6) went away.

I have 8 FM traps (4 of each).  Would it be worthwhile to try hooking up all
of them and running reception tests on the digitals?

My main goal is to get the digitals as reliable and error free as possible,
in preparation for the analogs going away.  Even a minor glitch on digital
can be far more disruptive than a little snow or a faint ghost on analog.
I don't have a spectrum analyser, and diagnostic info on the digitals is
extremely limited, so I'm trying to use the analogs to find clues.

Some of the digital channels are sensitive to the signal level, others are not.
This would make sense if it were the powerful stations vs the weak stations,
but that's not it.  Perhaps there is a clue here?


----------



## Rick0725




> Quote:
> The 88-108 trap is to knock down KBVM 88.3 FM which interferes
> 
> with channel 6 audio. More than one of these damages channel 6
> 
> too much.




zip: 97005

antennas: Winegard PR-8800 and YA-1713

coax: Philips RG6 quad shield

diplexor: Picomacom UVSJ


you are 4 miles from the towers with a pr8800 and ya1713. are the antenna web results correct?


* yellow - uhf KOIN-DT 6.1 CBS PORTLAND OR 47° 3.8 40

* yellow - uhf KPDX-DT 49.1 MNT VANCOUVER WA 33° 3.4 48

* yellow - uhf KGW-DT 8.1 NBC PORTLAND OR 36° 3.5 46

* yellow - uhf KNMT-DT 45.1 TBN PORTLAND OR 47° 3.9 45

* yellow - uhf KATU-DT 2.1 ABC PORTLAND OR 47° 3.8 43

* yellow - uhf KRCW-DT 32.1 CW SALEM OR 47° 3.9 33

* yellow - uhf KOPB-DT 10.1 PBS PORTLAND OR 36° 3.5 27

* yellow - uhf KPTV-DT 12.1 FOX PORTLAND OR 36° 3.5 30

* yellow - vhf KPXG-DT 22.1 ION SALEM OR 47° 3.9 4

* red - uhf KOAC-DT 7.1 PBS CORVALLIS OR 184° 63.1 39


is fm really an issue at your home? you are using a uhf and ch7-13 antenna somewhat oversized for 4 miles and has minimal gain under 98 mhz (FM).


you need to determine which channels in your market you wish to receive ...analog/digital or both and start from scratch in your setup...ie. antenna choice, simplify your wiring setup, move the antenna outside and go from there.


you mention analog channels. you have analog VHF ch 2,6,7,8,10,12 in the mix. ch6??? the ya 1713 is not used for ch 2 and does not have appropriate gain for 6 and should not be used as a determining factor for your reception success on ch 6.


Time to step back and determine what you want to receive and design the system appropriately around that one step at a time.


your current setup is geared for ch 7-69. If you desire ch2-69 you may be better off with a combo vhf/uhf antenna like winegard hd7082P installed outside for example. But in 2009 you are only going to need uhf.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Am I barking up the right tree? Or it it something else (not IMD) that is
> 
> creating the diagonal lines?



I don't know if IM distortion has an identifiable "signature" like say a ground loop or FM would have, but I can tell you that my LP locals have always looked crappy. They even tend to look crappy on my local cable system. It could be something inherent to the transmission and therefore beyond your control. IF that's the case, then any other reception issues you are having are independent of what you are seeing from the LP station.


----------



## Konrad2

> you are 4 miles from the towers with a pr8800 and ya1713.

> are the antenna web results correct?


> * yellow - uhf KOIN-DT 6.1 CBS PORTLAND OR 47DEG 3.8 40

> * yellow - uhf KPDX-DT 49.1 MNT VANCOUVER WA 33DEG 3.4 48

> * yellow - uhf KGW-DT 8.1 NBC PORTLAND OR 36DEG 3.5 46

> * yellow - uhf KNMT-DT 45.1 TBN PORTLAND OR 47DEG 3.9 45

> * yellow - uhf KATU-DT 2.1 ABC PORTLAND OR 47DEG 3.8 43

> * yellow - uhf KRCW-DT 32.1 CW SALEM OR 47DEG 3.9 33

> * yellow - uhf KOPB-DT 10.1 PBS PORTLAND OR 36DEG 3.5 27

> * yellow - uhf KPTV-DT 12.1 FOX PORTLAND OR 36DEG 3.5 30

> * yellow - vhf KPXG-DT 22.1 ION SALEM OR 47DEG 3.9 4

> * red - uhf KOAC-DT 7.1 PBS CORVALLIS OR 184DEG 63.1 39


That looks about right. I am not trying to get KOAC Corvallis,

since I have KOPB on 10 NTSC & 27 ATSC.


> you mention analog channels. you have analog ch 2,6,7,8,10,12

> in the mix. ch6??? the ya 1713 is not used for ch 2 or 6.


Yes, I know that the YA-1713 is VHF-HI. Our VHF-LO stations

are supposed to go away in 2009 and the YA-1713 has better

specs than a VHF 2-13 antenna.


The YA-1713 does okay on VHF-LO, not as good as on VHF-HI

but good enough to get by for a couple years. Even the low

power channel 4 comes in pretty well. If I only split 4 ways

channel 4 is still reported as 100% signal strength from

the digital tuner, with signal quality of 75%. Sometimes

it is received perfectly, although usually it drops a few

packets per hour. Channel 4 is supposed to move to channel 22

in 2009.


> But in 2009 you are only going to need uhf.


8 10 and 12 are currently analog, but will become digital in

2009. The VHF-LO analogs (2,5,6) go away in 2009. Channel 4

moves to channel 22 in 2009. So I will need VHF-HI and UHF.

So I bought the YA-1713 and PR-8800.


> move the antenna outside


Yes, I would probably get a better signal with the antennas

outside... until the next wind storm. High gain antennas

less than 5 miles from the towers looking through wood ought

to work okay. And for some stations they do. I chose highly

directional antennas to reduce multipath.


> is fm really an issue? you are using a uhf and ch7-13 antenna

> that has minimal gain under 98 mhz.


Adding the 1st 95-108 trap helped. Adding the second one

helped more. Adding the 88-108 trap knocked KBVM 88.3 FM

down enough that I can listen to the audio on channel 6 NTSC

without having KBVM superimposed on top of it. Adding

the ferrite sleeves appears to have reduced common mode FM

that messed up the picture on chan 10 NTSC. Like this:

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interfer...nofmfilter.jpg 


The most problematic station is 33, it is 750 KW and is supposed

to remain at channel 33 after 2009. It usually drops packets and

always has decoding errors. The Cascade2 demodulator reports

100% signal strength and 95% signal quality. This is the best

reported signal quality of any station, but it has the worst

actual reception. (Actual reception meaning decoding errors.)

The reported signal quality does change with signal level.

If 33's signal strength is reduced to 75%, quality goes down to 55.

As opposed to channel 27 which reports a quality of 55-65%

regardless of signal strength.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The most problematic station is 33, it is 750 KW and is supposed
> 
> to remain at channel 33 after 2009. It usually drops packets and
> 
> always has decoding errors.



Is there a pattern to the errors on channel 33?


Do they occur more on windy days? (possible tree issue)

Can you time them with a stopwatch? (possible datastream problem)

Is it more likely to occur on a hot or cold day? (possible antenna beam tilt at the station)

Is there an airplane in the path when the pixelization occurs? (You are aimed toward the airport)


If you notice any of these trends it may suggest a solution.


----------



## Rick0725

Konrad


you should consider a more "commercial quality" notch filter made to order from here.

http://www.cefilter.com 


much deeper and tighter notch and really not that expensive. The filter can be tuned tighter at the company above so not to affect ch 6 as much if you explain the sitation to the technician.


suggest both a 50db notch full band barrel style fm filter and a filter tuned to 88.3 mhz (if the fm band filter does not do the job).


another option...try a tri shield rg-6 coax instead of quad shield. slightly better shielding for signal ingress. Like Belden 7915A with foil tape, 80% braid, and an outer layer of foil.

https://www.tselectronic.com/belden/...6cb10b50b3bf1d 


I am not a big fan of the PR8800 UHF expecially with trees and troublsome reception. Think there is room for improvement in that area too.


----------



## Konrad2

Tower Guy> Is there a pattern to the errors on channel 33?


Not that I have noticed. I've mostly looked for patterns (temp,

street traffic, wind, time of day, ...) with KOPB 27, since reception

quality varies a lot on 27. 33 is always bad.


The only correlation I've found is with the show itself. If I have

bad reception of a show and they (OPB) rerun the show later that day, or

the next day, or 2 months later, it is likely to have a reception problem.

Which might make sense if they were transmitting exactly the same bits

each time, but sometimes their decoder goes out to lunch and I get a

black screen (except for the station logo) for a moment, And then when

it reruns I don't get the black screen, so they are obviously

decoding/encoding the show each time. But I usually get a reception

problem (at a different time within the program) every time for a

particular show. Strange.


Tower Guy> Do they occur more on windy days? (possible tree issue)


I've tried to figure this out, but wind is such a localized thing

that data from the airports probably isn't that useful. It doesn't

take much wind to move leaves around. There are a few trees in the way,

other than that I have a clear view of the transmitting towers.


Tower Guy> Can you time them with a stopwatch? (possible datastream problem)


What do you mean by "datastream problem"? Who needs a stopwatch when you

have software decoders that tell you the time down to 0.1 second and even the

exact frame number?


chan 33 2007_04_08 beginning at 4:55am


frame=23844 q=0.0 size= 2791875kB time=794.9 bitrate=28770.6kbits/s dup=22 drop=0

frame=36390 q=0.0 size= 4262109kB time=1213.6 bitrate=28770.7kbits/s dup=22 drop=0

frame=37394 q=0.0 size= 4379766kB time=1247.1 bitrate=28770.6kbits/s dup=22 drop=0

frame=61876 q=0.0 size= 7249570kB time=2064.2 bitrate=28770.8kbits/s dup=22 drop=0

frame=63385 q=0.0 size= 7425586kB time=2114.3 bitrate=28770.9kbits/s dup=22 drop=0

frame=64027 q=0.0 size= 7500820kB time=2135.7 bitrate=28771.1kbits/s dup=22 drop=0

frame=92725 q=0.0 size=10863867kB time=3093.3 bitrate=28771.0kbits/s dup=22 drop=0

frame=92920 q=0.0 size=10886719kB time=3099.8 bitrate=28771.1kbits/s dup=22 drop=0

frame=92936 q=0.0 size=10888594kB time=3100.3 bitrate=28771.0kbits/s dup=22 drop=0

frame=93513 q=0.0 size=10956445kB time=3119.6 bitrate=28770.9kbits/s dup=22 drop=0

frame=118002 q=0.0 size=13826016kB time=3936.7 bitrate=28771.2kbits/s dup=22 drop=0

frame=126502 q=0.0 size=14822109kB time=4220.3 bitrate=28771.2kbits/s dup=22 drop=0


chan 33 2007_05_03 beginning at 10:55pm


frame= 5200 q=0.0 size= 607031kB time=172.9 bitrate=28767.2kbits/s dup=33 drop=0

frame=14124 q=0.0 size= 1653281kB time=470.8 bitrate=28770.3kbits/s dup=33 drop=0

frame=14275 q=0.0 size= 1670625kB time=475.7 bitrate=28770.9kbits/s dup=33 drop=0

frame=15923 q=0.0 size= 1863633kB time=530.7 bitrate=28769.8kbits/s dup=33 drop=0

frame=36691 q=0.0 size= 4297500kB time=1223.6 bitrate=28770.6kbits/s dup=33 drop=0

frame=38280 q=0.0 size= 4483828kB time=1276.7 bitrate=28770.6kbits/s dup=33 drop=0

frame=39136 q=0.0 size= 4584023kB time=1305.2 bitrate=28771.0kbits/s dup=33 drop=0

frame=62977 q=0.0 size= 7378008kB time=2100.7 bitrate=28771.2kbits/s dup=33 drop=0

frame=65166 q=0.0 size= 7634297kB time=2173.7 bitrate=28770.9kbits/s dup=33 drop=0

frame=67253 q=0.0 size= 7878984kB time=2243.4 bitrate=28771.0kbits/s dup=33 drop=0

frame=68886 q=0.0 size= 8070234kB time=2297.9 bitrate=28770.9kbits/s dup=33 drop=0

frame=69074 q=0.0 size= 8092734kB time=2304.3 bitrate=28771.0kbits/s dup=33 drop=0

frame=69136 q=0.0 size= 8099648kB time=2306.2 bitrate=28771.2kbits/s dup=33 drop=0

frame=72560 q=0.0 size= 8500781kB time=2420.4 bitrate=28770.9kbits/s dup=33 drop=0


> Is it more likely to occur on a hot or cold day? (possible antenna beam tilt at the station)


Not that I have noticed. I'll check the next time we have an especially hot or cold day.

I had both perfect and horrible reception of KOPB 27 during a recent hot spell.


> Is there an airplane in the path when the pixelization occurs? (You are aimed toward the airport)


Airplanes are far enough away that I rarely hear them outdoors, much less indoors.

Wouldn't airplanes affect all the stations about the same, given that the transmitting

towers are all clumped together?


KATU 43 comes in perfectly recently, as does KPDX 48 and KPTV 30. KOPB 27 usually

comes in perfectly lately, but occasionally it is quite bad.


I've looked for a correlation with street traffic (some people have trouble with

trucks, busses, ... ), but haven't found one.


----------



## hdtvluvr

I purchased a Winegard HD7084P last year for 2 reasons. 1 to move my antenna outside and 2 for a combo antenna because some of my channels will revert back to 5 and 13 in 2009. I currently have a Channel Master CM 4228 in the attic. I get dropouts at times.


Well, I started the installation today. It is about 40 ft. above ground level. Making small adjustments to the direction it is pointing, I was able to get 90 on some channels and 0 to 17 on others. My current attic antenna (CM 4228) gets all channels with a reading of 70 - 90.


The channels that I want to receive are below. There is a 20 deg span at a range that varies from 10.3 to 18.3 miles.


Is the pickup beam on the HD7084P too narrow for my purposes? Please help! I'm getting discouraged.


Cable run to each TV is approximately 150 ft.




Antenna Call Sign Channel Network City State Compass Miles Frequen cy

yellow - uhf WPTY-DT 24.1 ABC MEMPHIS TN 163° 10.3 25

yellow - uhf WKNO-DT 10.1 PBS MEMPHIS TN 178° 18.3 29

yellow - uhf WPXX-DT 50.1 MNT MEMPHIS TN 176° 14.4 51

yellow - uhf WLMT-DT 30.1 CW MEMPHIS TN 163° 10.3 31

yellow - uhf WREG-DT 3.1 CBS MEMPHIS TN 180° 16.4 28

yellow - uhf WMC-DT 5.1 NBC MEMPHIS TN 163° 10.3 52

yellow - uhf WHBQ-DT 13.1 FOX MEMPHIS TN 183° 16.9 53


----------



## tyromark

hdtvlvr - With a long cable run ("each TV"? You have it split to several?), maybe a preamp would make a difference for you. Just a guess.


----------



## hdtvluvr

I have D* (HD Tivo) and I am combining the OTA signal to the dish signal.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hdtvluvr* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I purchased a Winegard HD7084P last year for 2 reasons. 1 to move my antenna outside and 2 for a combo antenna because some of my channels will revert back to 5 and 13 in 2009. I currently have a Channel Master CM 4228 in the attic. I get dropouts at times.
> 
> 
> Well, I started the installation today. It is about 40 ft. above ground level. Making small adjustments to the direction it is pointing, I was able to get 90 on some channels and 0 to 17 on others. My current attic antenna (CM 4228) gets all channels with a reading of 70 - 90.
> 
> 
> The channels that I want to receive are below. There is a 20 deg span at a range that varies from 10.3 to 18.3 miles.
> 
> Is the pickup beam on the HD7084P too narrow for my purposes? Please help! I'm getting discouraged.
> 
> Cable run to each TV is approximately 150 ft.



Looking at the spec sheet for the HD7084P, the beam pattern does get narrow at the higher UHF channels and you have three stations at UHF 51 to 53. Any particular for choosing a long range antenna such as the HD7084P rather than the medium range HD7080P?


But your 150' cable run suggests you need a pre-amp. If you are running it through a diplexer, then you will have to place the power supply for the pre-amp ahead of the diplexer.


The CM 4228 should be fine for getting WHBQ-DT Fox 13 when it switches to VHF 13. WMC-DT NBC 5 is shown as in the FCC 1st/2nd round selection as going to VHF 5. But since you already have a good antenna, I would have recommended that you wait until it is confirmed by the final round of channel selections that WMC-DT will end up on VHF 5. The FCC is still working it's way to the final post transition digital channel assignments. You could have put up a full VHF/UHF antenna next year if WMC-DT was shown as still switching to VHF 5.


----------



## hdtvluvr

I thought I might as well get the biggest possible. However, it may be too directional (I didn't think about that). Would the medium range work (beam pattern wide enough)?


The antenna cable is connected to a 5X8 D* switch so the signal is injected in with the satellite signal and routed to the TV's. It won't be a problem to add the power supply. Is the pre-amp water proof and can go outside? Which pre-amp.


With the CM 4228, I get pixelation and dropouts at times. I was hoping to improve the signal by moving it outside and add VHF ability at the same time. Maybe I just need a pre-amp on the 4228 (until the FCC decides on 5)? I just realized that there is about 120 ft. of cable for the CM 4228 antenna.


----------



## Rick0725

The hd7084P should work fine and be more than enough antenna for the stations you describe in your market at your distances of around 10-12 miles.


I install a ton of the hd7084p's here in a market where the towers are around 20 degrees apart with stations on chs 47,54,56, and 68. if some of the station patterns are on the "funky side" at your home, you may need to compromise some and aim a tadd towards the weaker signal.


your issue may actually center around your use of diplexing and the longer runs of 150' and would not loose hope just yet.


I suggest the winegard hdp269 preamp for your distances from the towers. this amp should be enough to offset the line losses in your setup. you may need more gain tough to tell from here but the hdp 269 is a good start.


if the amp does not correct the situation you may need to think about running a separate line for off air. diplexed setups can be troublesome.


if at the end you are still not satisified you could use the hd7084p for vhf/fm and combine the cm4228 for uhf. this situation would offer the best of both worlds. you would combine the signals from each antenna with a cm 0549 vhf/uhf combiner then amplify the signal off the cm 0549 with the hdp269 preamp.


another thing to look at. the hd7084p. make sure the circuit board in the plastic housing is properly installed with the board properly seated and making adequate contact with the antenna elements. look out for shorting/touching, make sure the contacts are far enough apart, and at the same time make sure the 2 antenna elements are making adequate contact with the circuit board. if not you may need to bend the elements sightly till they do. I see this issue many times during service calls.


I would first purchase the hdp 269 preamp and wire the amp into your system and see what happens. if still not satisfied, you may need to take a look at your wiring setup. then explore the possibility of combining both antennas. fyi...for example, you could leave the cm4228 in the attic and the hd7084p outside run coax from the hd7084p inside and combine everything in the attic close to the cm4228 and integrate into your current setup. or you can install the cm4228 and hd 7084 on the same mast or separate ones outside.


you have plenty of options.


from my experiences, the hd7084p should be awesome and much more than enough antenna at your distances from the towers unless


-the elements are shorted in the plastic housing

-you are expriencing signal blockage from local geography or other factors

-inadequate wiring and signal distribution setup

-losses associated with diplexing and splitting


if you are experiencing loss of signal in the uhf channel range, losses from diplexing, splitting , and long cable runs can be the issue. adding an amp may be the bandaid and redesigning the setup may be better in the long run.


you have runs over 120' plus diplexing which adds even more losses.


150' = ~9 db loss ...then add the losses associated with diplexing and splitting. I bet the situation will improve tremendously if you clean up your wiring and signal distribution setup.


----------



## hdtvluvr




Are you suggesting a simple splitter?


>>if at the end you are still not satisified you could use the hd7084p for vhf/fm and combine the cm4228 for uhf. this situation would offer the best of both worlds.another thing to look at. the hd7084p. make sure the circuit board in the plastic housing is properly installed with the board properly seated and making adequate contact with the antenna elements. look out for shorting/touching, make sure the contacts are far enough apart, and at the same time make sure the 2 antenna elements are making adequate contact with the circuit board. if not you may need to bend the elements sightly till they do. I see this issue many times during service calls.


----------



## Rick0725




> Quote:
> if the amp does not correct the situation you may need to think about running a separate line for off air. diplexed setups can be troublesome. >>
> 
> 
> Are you suggesting a simple splitter?



I am suggesting removing the off air distribution away from diplexing with satellite. separate lines with splitters...separate from satellite.






> Quote:
> if at the end you are still not satisified you could use the hd7084p for vhf/fm and combine the cm4228 for uhf. this situation would offer the best of both worlds.
> 
> 
> The antennas are at opposite ends of the house and the cable run to combine them would be impossible.



just run a coax from the hd7084p inside to the where the cm 4228 is and combine from there if you decide to. 2 hdp 269's would be suggested. 1 to amplify the vhf off the hd7084p and one for the cm4228. (you may not need to amplify the vhf since the losses per foot on vhf are much less than uhf over the longer distances and splitting)




> Quote:
> Regarding the winegard hdp269, I guess I should try it on the attic mounted 4228 first and see if that improves the UHF channels. If so, I can attempt to get 5 (VHF) if it reverts back to VHF later.
> 
> 
> I could move both antenna's into the attic space over another part of the house, and combine them. How would I remove the UHF portion of the wingard? Part of the UHF elements are on the main antenna and the rest are on the added extension. Putting them in that part of the attic would still give me about the same length of cable runs.



you would not remove the uhf portion of the hd7084p but leave the hd7084p intact. see pic.


the cm0549 vhf/uhf combiner will isolate the vhf and uhf signals enough and not create any issues. I combine a hd8200p for vhf/fm with a 91xg for uhf at my home for example using the hdp 269 preamp and cm0549. I have directv and do not diplex the sat with off air and instead distribute the off air signal separately at least 12 times around the home with no problems.


the entire installation may seem like a pain in the ass at first...but once completed satisafactorily you should receive great service for many years. as simple as off air seems, some installs can be a challenge for "do it yourselfers" if the coditions are not cut and dry.


----------



## extacamo

I have a quick couple of questions. I need to install an amp and rotor with my CM4228. The questions I have is where is the best place to mount the amp with a rotor? Should I put the amp before or after the rotor? Also, what is the best way to deal with dressing the RG-6 so it doesn't come loose from the constant twisting when the antenna spins? Thanks


----------



## MeowMeow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *extacamo* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a quick couple of questions. I need to install an amp and rotor with my CM4228. The questions I have is where is the best place to mount the amp with a rotor? Should I put the amp before or after the rotor? Also, what is the best way to deal with dressing the RG-6 so it doesn't come loose from the constant twisting when the antenna spins? Thanks



I put mine below the rotator. With a 6' coax it has enough slack, because the balun is only a couple feet above the rotator once you have the CM 4228 mounted.


----------



## hdtvluvr

I've ordered the winegard hdp269. I noticed that it appears to have an FM trap. Does it? Or is FM still passed but just not amplified? Not a real big deal but would like to know in case I try to replace my small FM antenna.


Will post back when I get / try the winegard hdp269


----------



## Falcon_77

Is there a small VHF antenna that would be good for testing purposes? I thought this was a simple matter of getting rabbit-ears but perhaps not.


I am currently trying an RCA ANT115 as a test antenna and the UHF loop does ok, but it is horrible at VHF, even with the dipoles fully extended.


I used this antenna to test reception in the Mystic CT area and I couldn't get hardly anything on WFSB 3 no matter what I tried. The result didn't surprise me considering what I was dealing with there. However, now that I am back in CA, with a mostly clear view of Mt. Wilson (from Irvine), I am having no luck getting KCBS 2. Channels 4 and 5 are very weak, though it improves a bit for VHF-High.


I had an older pair of rabbit ears that went missing. I seem to remember those working much better than this before I put up the CM4228. However, the old rabbit ears did not have a UHF loop and I had a balun attached. The RCA ANT115 just has a (very thin) Coax cable coming out of the base.


This seems like a silly question, but what is a good pair of test rabbit-ears? Perhaps it is as simple as finding another pair w/o the UHF loop combo.


----------



## EArkHog




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MeowMeow* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> That's just the diurnal cycle. The atmosphere heats and cools. The end consequence is that the reflection of the signal changes between day and night.
> 
> 
> This will also shift as fall and winter come. Generally, these shifts are positive.
> 
> 
> And when the trees lose their leaves, you might see some better signal from that, too.



I know you've been worrying about me, so I figured I'd better report...


I am DELIGHTED to report that the CM7777 did the trick. I didn't have to chop down trees or move my chimney-mounted 4228. All is well here in 72301.


----------



## sharktooth

EArkHog: did CM 7777 help you gain signal for the existing channels or did you get any new channels and how far are you from the Tower? I got CM 4228 myself and I am about 60 miles away from Grand Island, Buffalo but I am not getting any of the Buffalo stations. So, I am wondering if I should get a different kind of antenna or install CM 7777 to see if I can get any new stations.


----------



## EArkHog




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sharktooth* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> EArkHog: did CM 7777 help you gain signal for the existing channels or did you get any new channels and how far are you from the Tower? I got CM 4228 myself and I am about 60 miles away from Grand Island, Buffalo but I am not getting any of the Buffalo stations. So, I am wondering if I should get a different kind of antenna or install CM 7777 to see if I can get any new stations.



My set of available local stations is set. I am only 25 miles from the broacast towers. I was having trouble getting daytime reception through that damned tree next to the house. Your issues are more challenging. I am certainly no expert, but I'll bet you need a more directional antenna than the 4228. Fortunately this forum provides us with access to some real experts. Good luck.


----------



## sharktooth

Can anyone help me with my problem here? Is CM 4248 going to improve the situation or anything that will help me get the Buffalo stations? Any help is appreciated.


----------



## Mloot

I just recently got back from a vacation in Oregon, and on the way up there, I saw a few of the larger type of antenna on some people's houses. I've never seen one before, so I was hoping someone could identify it for my curiosity's sake.

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/171/p1010644se5.jpg 



TIA.


----------



## EArkHog




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sharktooth* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can anyone help me with my problem here? Is CM 4248 going to improve the situation or anything that will help me get the Buffalo stations? Any help is appreciated.



Don't forget to browse this adjacent thread - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=381623


----------



## paulstefano

I have Stagger stacking question.


For those of you who remember my situation, a quick update. I received my channel 47 Jointenna. For further testing I bought a Samsung DTB H260F. For the record, that H260F is much better at picking up local signals, but didn't help my situation at all. I may keep it just to use as a spare receiver, though.


Anyay, I put in my Jointenna, and got 0 help, as predicted here. I put it ahead of the pre-amp (please let me know if that was dumb) and then into my HDP269 pre-amp then to my 100 foot downlead.


I tried this 3 ways.


1. With pre-amp and attic mounted Winegard PR-8800

2. Without pre-amp in the attic

3. With pre-amp, with outdoor mounted Winegard PR-8800 on a 40 foot mast (thanks to the good people at Winegard, I now have 2)


Results: I got 0 picture on my DTV HR20, and Samsung SIRTS-160. and 1 signal bar on my H260F; in all 3 scenerios.


So, I'm off to stagger stack. I know I should buy a signal meter, but I can't bring myself to drop the coin on that (even though I've spent way more on supplies so far), so please humor me.


My question is this: If I mount the antennas on the same mast with a rubber or plastic sleeve under the U-Bolt, will that cancel out the conducitve properties of the mast enough for the antennas not to "see" each other?


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mloot* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just recently got back from a vacation in Oregon, and on the way up there, I saw a few of the larger type of antenna on some people's houses. I've never seen one before, so I was hoping someone could identify it for my curiosity's sake.
> 
> http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/171/p1010644se5.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> TIA.



It's a deep fringe VHF 2-13 Channelmaster Crossfire,now discontinued.Can't remember the model number,but a good antenna.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paulstefano* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> My question is this: If I mount the antennas on the same mast with a rubber or plastic sleeve under the U-Bolt, will that cancel out the conducitve properties of the mast enough for the antennas not to "see" each other?



The antennas should be stacked with sufficient distance between them. With such distance, there is no need to isolate the boom and the mast.


----------



## Rick0725




> Quote:
> Anyay, I put in my Jointenna, and got 0 help, as predicted here. I put it ahead of the pre-amp (please let me know if that was dumb) and then into my HDP269 pre-amp then to my 100 foot downlead.



connection of jointenna is AFTER the preamps.


antenna to preamp module at the antenna

coax to preamp "to ant" input of preamp

tv out of preamp to jointenna


2 preamps work best. one for each antenna.


I usually run 2 coax inside from each antenna to 2 separate preamp power inserters. the tv out of each preamp is attached to the jointenna inputs (ch ?? and all channel input). the output of the jointenna is then sent to the tuners.


choice of antennas. would rather have seen you use 91xgs for your application. the pr8800's do not turn me on...though inexpensive you would be better off with something different.


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> connection of jointenna is AFTER the preamps.
> 
> 
> antenna to preamp
> 
> tv out of preamp to jointenna
> 
> 
> 2 preamps work best. one for each antenna.
> 
> 
> I usually run 2 coax inside from each antenna to 2 separate preamp power inserters. the tv out of each preamp is attached to the jointenna inputs (ch ?? and all channel input). the output of the jointenna is then sent to the tuners.



So you are saying that you don't put the Jointenna in until AFTER the power inserter?


----------



## Rick0725




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paulstefano* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> So you are saying that you don't put the Jointenna in until AFTER the power inserter?


YES


choice of antennas. would rather have seen you use 91xgs for your application. the pr8800's do not turn me on...though inexpensive you would be better off with something different.


----------



## Falcon_77

I ended up picking up a pair of rabbit ears at Radio Shack. The results for 2 are only slightly better (I can almost see the makings of a picture).


It just seems that 80" rabbit ear dipoles just don't cut it for VHF-Lo. It is somewhat ironic, however, that these rabbit ears (this pair is w/o a UHF loop) work better for UHF than VHF. I am able to tune up to channel 62 with them, with far better results than 2-5.


Maybe one day I will understand what is so good about VHF. Are VHF channels really worth the monster antennas they require (such as the one just above)?


----------



## Rick0725

falcon


if you do NOT have reception issues impeding reception and live in an urban/suburban setting, rabbit ears can work for you.


BUT


the issues can be any of the following

-signal blockage from local geography

-noise from electric transformers, appliances, other outside sources, etc

-home construction


in general uhf can better "tolerate" some of this stuff but is still affected. the technical explanation is too broad to give explicit details and difficult to determine what exactly is causing your issues 3000 miles away in new york


most indoor rabit ears will give you results in the same general ballpark. vhf require larger antennas because of the wavelength transmitted on. I do not have a clue what will work reliably for you inside.


----------



## Konrad2

> http://www.cefilter.com 

>

> much deeper and tighter notch and really not that expensive.


How expensive are they? I didn't find prices on their web site.

Custom sounds expensive?


I've thought of trying a notch filter instead of the 88-108 for

chan 6, but improving chan 6 isn't my primary goal, given that

it is going away. I'm trying to improve reception of the digitals.

Some sort of high-pass/low-pass/band-pass/band-reject filters to

eliminate all the non-TV frequencies would be a useful thing to try.


> another option...try a tri shield rg-6 coax instead of quad shield.

> slightly better shielding for signal ingress. Like Belden 7915A with

> foil tape, 80% braid, and an outer layer of foil.


I'm assuming that quad shield is two braid plus two foil? It is not

obvious how 3 would be better than 4 (thicker foil maybe?), although

I could believe that Belden is better than Philips.


There's only 3 feet of coax between the splitter and the digital tuners.

The filters and splitter are connected with F-to-F adapters, not cables.


However, the 50 foot run from the diplexor to the filters is near Ethernet.

Could picking up Ethernet hurt 27, 33 and 46 but not 30, 43 or 48?


> I am not a big fan of the PR8800 UHF expecially with trees and

> troublsome reception. Think there is room for improvement in that area too.


I can see where a different antenna could help with multipath, (e.g. put a

null where the multipath is coming from) but I don't see how it would help

with trees inline with the towers?


If you believe http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 

the only antenna with more net gain than the PR-8800 at channel 33 is the

CM 4228 and only by about 1 dB. Presumably this means that the PR-8800

is the 2nd most directional at chan 33 and the most directional at chan 27.

The PR-8800 has a flatter frequency response in the 27-33 range than the

CM 4228.


Holl_ands will disagree, pointing at Kerry Cozad's measurements. (Are these

available in a non-MS format?)


----------



## Konrad2

> Anyay, I put in my Jointenna, and got 0 help, as predicted here.

> I put it ahead of the pre-amp (please let me know if that was dumb)


It wasn't dumb, but it might not be the optimum setup.


If the preamp is not overloading, you would be better off having the

Jointenna after the preamp so that the signal doesn't suffer attenuation

before being amplified. If the preamp is overloaded, having the

Jointenna before the preamp would help keep the preamp from being

overloaded. If you have the Jointenna after the preamp you might

have to have it after the power inserter as well, since it might not

pass power. The instructions should say if it passes power or not.


IIRC you said that the analog station (43?) still has some noise (snow)

even with the preamp? So 47 might also be weak, even with the preamp.

If you have another amp sitting around, and the preamp isn't overloading,

you could try


antenna --> preamp --> power insert --> Jointenna --> 2nd amp --> power insert --> tuner


You could try this without the Jointenna and see what 43 looks like.

But without the Jointenna the 2nd amp is more likely to overload.

And it might overload even with the Jointenna.


Did you connect anything to the wideband antenna input of the

Jointenna? It might not perform properly with that input

open circuit? Try connecting a terminator. A terminator

doesn't cost much, it is just a 75 Ohm resistor in an F connector.

Or you could connect an unused tuner input (old TV or VCR, ...)

to terminate it.


The stagger stack is probably your best bet.


----------



## Rick0725

Konrad


Just got off the phone with the filter company and quickly described your situation.


contact Dave Dan at 1-800-882-1587 and explain your situation. He will out line your options. He works till a little after 4pm eastern time.


A barrel filter for 88.3mhz would cost $16.08 for example


this is how belden explaiins tri shield cable


Belden

7915A Duobond Plus® 3GHz RG6/U Tri-Shield Broadband Coax


Belden 7915A Duobond Plus® is a Belden innovation that features a three-shield construction consisting of Duobond II (foil tape) surrounded by 80 percent braid and an outer layer of foil with a unique shorting fold that creates the electrical effect of a solid metal conduit. The combination offers superior high frequency sheilding compared with traditional Quad shield designs.


Duobond® Plus foil shield ( Duobond II Foil + 80% aluminum braid + Duofoil tape with shorting fold).

18 awg solid bare copper center conductor , the best choice for baseband thru broadband applications

Sweep tested 5MHZ to 3GHz


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> > Anyay, I put in my Jointenna, and got 0 help, as predicted here.
> 
> > I put it ahead of the pre-amp (please let me know if that was dumb)
> 
> 
> It wasn't dumb, but it might not be the optimum setup.
> 
> 
> If the preamp is not overloading, you would be better off having the
> 
> Jointenna after the preamp so that the signal doesn't suffer attenuation
> 
> before being amplified. If the preamp is overloaded, having the
> 
> Jointenna before the preamp would help keep the preamp from being
> 
> overloaded. If you have the Jointenna after the preamp you might
> 
> have to have it after the power inserter as well, since it might not
> 
> pass power. The instructions should say if it passes power or not.
> 
> 
> IIRC you said that the analog station (43?) still has some noise (snow)
> 
> even with the preamp? So 47 might also be weak, even with the preamp.
> 
> If you have another amp sitting around, and the preamp isn't overloading,
> 
> you could try
> 
> 
> antenna --> preamp --> power insert --> Jointenna --> 2nd amp --> power insert --> tuner
> 
> 
> You could try this without the Jointenna and see what 43 looks like.
> 
> But without the Jointenna the 2nd amp is more likely to overload.
> 
> And it might overload even with the Jointenna.
> 
> 
> Did you connect anything to the wideband antenna input of the
> 
> Jointenna? It might not perform properly with that input
> 
> open circuit? Try connecting a terminator. A terminator
> 
> doesn't cost much, it is just a 75 Ohm resistor in an F connector.
> 
> Or you could connect an unused tuner input (old TV or VCR, ...)
> 
> to terminate it.
> 
> 
> The stagger stack is probably your best bet.



I did not terminate the open "All Channels" input. That could be the problem. I was picking up stations, all over the place, with the Jointenna plugged in. It sure seemed like things weren't working properly.


I will try the suggestions you described.


thanks,


paul


----------



## Rick0725

terminating the port on the jointenna will make the unit a notch filter for the channel you had it tuned to. Is that what you want to accomplish...filter ch 47. keep in mind that the jointenna will filter 5 channels adjacent either side of center and there is a sizeable insertion loss.


thought you were using the jointenna to combine 2 antennas.


you have me confused with what you are trying to accomplish.


Are you trying to use 1 antenna to get reception of another channel from the rear hoping that filtering the more powerful signal with help the other lock.


going to be a challenge if that is the case...or you luck out.


keep us posted of how you make out.


----------



## AntAltMike

I just bought a couple square feet of copper foil from a local art supply house so that I could shield some Winegard UT-2700 notch filters and Channel Master Jointennas. Even at the local art store's inflated prices, the foil cost per trap shielded will only be a buck and a half.


As luck would have it, today I got a catalog in the mail from my lowest-price supplier for UT-2700s. I had been buying them in single quantities from them for just under $22. Well, surprise, surprise! They now sell them for $45.60 in single quantities, with the price dropping to $41.50 if I buy a dozen at a time.


I just searched this item out on the internet, and nearly everyone is now charging $46 to $50 for it, with Solid Signal charging $79.99. One eBay seller is offering them in his "store" for $28.94, but with $21.75 added to that for shipping and no combined shipping discounts (in a bubble envelope, the actual shipping cost would be a few dollars, tops).


I found only one seller cheaper than that, quoting $37.25, but it looked like an old page and I will be surprised if they stil will sell them that cheaply if I order a bunch.


This filter costs no more to make than Winegard's FM-7600, yet my main supplier held its price for those at $16.10 each, $14.95/12. I guess it is a simple matter of requests coming in for this product and Winegard analyzing the marketplace and seeing that no one is offering any kind of a tunable notch for under $100.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sharktooth* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Can anyone help me with my problem here? Is CM 4248 going to improve the situation or anything that will help me get the Buffalo stations? Any help is appreciated.



Find your geographical coordinates with a GPS or a mapping program and enter them here: http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=29 


DTV stations on UHF shown with a signal strength of -80 dbm or stronger will be fine. Between -80 and -90 dbm should also work if the conditions are favorable. Weaker than -90 dbm depends on many other factors.


----------



## paulstefano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> terminating the port on the jointenna will make the unit a notch filter for the channel you had it tuned to. Is that what you want to accomplish...filter ch 47. keep in mind that the jointenna will filter 5 channels adjacent either side of center and there is a sizeable insertion loss.
> 
> 
> thought you were using the jointenna to combine 2 antennas.
> 
> 
> you have me confused with what you are trying to accomplish.
> 
> 
> Are you trying to use 1 antenna to get reception of another channel from the rear hoping that filtering the more powerful signal with help the other lock.
> 
> 
> going to be a challenge if that is the case...or you luck out.
> 
> 
> keep us posted of how you make out.




I'm trying to pick up channel 47 at 3 degrees azimuth. Behind me, less than 5 miles away is WBFF on channel 46 at 187 degrees azimuth. I was trying to use the Jointenna to ALLOW channel 47. Can somebody clarify how to wire this thing to accomplish that? I wasn't even planning on using another antenna. I have all my locals from DTV, I just want channel 47, because it's out of market.


On another note, I tried a temporary stagger stack solution in the attic:


I took apart a Winegard PR-8800 and made it two 4 bays.


I pointed 1 at Channel 47 on a mast. I left antenna #2 on the ground floor of my attic. I then wired both to a BNC T connector with the #2's lead 1/4 wavelength longer. I then tuned to WBFF (virtual 45, actual 46). I picked up antenna #2 and started waving it around. After a while I discovered a sweet spot to completely cancel out 46. This spot turned out to be just in front and slightly lower than antenna 1 (probably the exact correct stagger distance had I measured and mounted it) Channel 46 was gone visually, and had Zero signal on my Samsung H260F. Then I tuned to channel 47, and still nothing but 1 signal bar. I did the same thing with my Winegard hdp269 amp wired in. Still no better.


This leads me to believe I am having issues with analog 45, also directly behind me less than 5 miles away. Either that, or I just can't get a strong enough digital signal from 47. The strange part is, I still get great analog reception on the same network at channel 43.


So, thoughts? I canceled out WBFF-DT succesfully, I think. Are there any options left?


thanks,


paul


----------



## Konrad2

> I still get great analog reception on the same network at channel 43


How much snow does 43 have?


How much power is 47 putting out relative to 43? And is 47 really

putting out that much, or are they limping along at half power

waiting for repair parts?


> I took apart a Winegard PR-8800 and made it two 4 bays.


If you use the two PR-8800s rather than splitting one in two

you should get about 3dB more signal.


You will probably get a stronger signal with the antennas up above

the roof rather than in the attic. (higher is usually better, and

no attenuation from the attic roof or wall) If your mast can handle

two antennas (weight and wind load). And you would need to fabricate

a mount for the stagger.


You can also try different locations within the attic, if there is room.

UHF can have hot and cold spots a few inches apart. That might make

finding the stagger distance by nulling 46 problematic. You might do

better setting the stagger distance with a ruler.


> I was trying to use the Jointenna to ALLOW channel 47. Can somebody

> clarify how to wire this thing to accomplish that?


Connect antenna to the single channel input. Terminate the all channel

input. Connect the output to your preamp.


BTW some splitters come with a terminator.


After reading
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...post10946969 

you might want the Jointenna ahead of the preamp even if the preamp

isn't overloading.


The Jointenna should allow you to use more amplifier gain than without.

If 43 has snow (*) you may need more gain for 47. In theory digital

doesn't require as much signal-to-noise ratio as analog, but in

practice it seems to.


(*) without the Jointenna attenuating it, and the stagger probably

(I haven't done the math to check) doesn't do 43 any favors either.


----------



## wildwillie6

Just to throw this into the mix, here's my case, in which a Join-tenna works just as intended: I have one signal on UHF 49 that comes from about 90 degrees apart from all my other signals.


I have a ChannelMaster 4221 getting that signal and sending it down through a 7777 preamp. All my other signals come from a ChannelMaster 4248 through a separate 7777 preamp. Downstream from both preamps, I put the signal from the 4221 in on the "Ch. 49 in" of the Join-tenna, then the signal from the 4248 in on the "all other channels."


Then I take the signal out from the Join-tenna to the TVs. And it works. (Previous testing with the rotator and the 4248 had shown it was hopeless to find a compromise angle to get all the stations with one antenna.)


I assume this is the obvious case in which the Join-tenna "should work," "ought to work," "of course it works," but there's the experience in case someone can benefit.


----------



## Rick0725

paulstefano


willie has some valid points. the jointenna is best used to combine 2 antennas with 1 antenna pointed to the station the jointenna is tuned to and the other for all channel use. the other application is for a 20 db channel trap for a specified channel.


the pr8800 is really not an antenna of choice for challenging reception situations. you may need to select a different antenna/ antennas for better results.


If I were going to take on the challenge here, I would use 2 antennas...one for the locals 5 miles away and one aimed at ch 47. the selection of antennas is very important because of the considerations of the adjacent channels and signal levels/distances involved in the combination. the jointenna setup is also going to be a challenge because they attennuate signal 5 channels either side of the center channel in your case ch 47 (your ch 45 and 46).


I also would suggest antennas that have the specs suitable for more accuracy. the gain of the antenna and the way the antennas match for the situation at hand is going to be important. for example, if ch 47 is weaker and farther away use an antenna with more gain for ch 47 and use an antenna of less gain for the stations close up so you can attemp to balance the signals better and minimize interferences.


amplification is also going to be an issue. amplification must be properly matched for the situation. amplification is not going to help matters because of the stations close by affecting or impeding reception of the stations far away. you may be better off without amplification and choosing appropriate antennas to compensate.


your set of circumstances may require a pro. you would need to try several alternatives...different antennas, amps, filters, instumentation, etc.


it is very difficult to offer concrete solutions to your problems from afar because to be honest there may not be any.


----------



## Damascada

Hello,


We are planning to upgrade our current antenna in advance of purchasing an LCD flat screen and the upcoming Feb 09 changeover to digital. The current antenna is in an inconvenient location and damaged. I am unsure of the brand and the size is about medium or average. We generally have good reception on the major networks form Austin (about 50-60 miles away). Our zip is 78642.


Antennaweb says we need a blue-violet LD antenna. After reading various reviews we are inclined towards the CM 4228 or XG-91. There is a single VHF channel (FOX 7) which we occasionally watch which does not yet have a digital signal. The rest are all UHF in the 18-42 range. All are in the 161-163 degrees orientation range.


We have a mast installed about 8 feet from the side of the house--set 2-3 feet (we hit rock) in concrete and bolted to a line fence post (also set in concrete). The diameter of the steel pole is 2 3/8". Height about 16'. Wind should not be a huge issue as long as the attachment of the actual antenna is strong (tips?)


Is the CM 4228 or XG-91 a good choice or would you recommend another product?


What additional items will we need to attach the antenna to our 2 3/8" mast? How would you recommend doing this?


What additional items will we need to ground the antenna? How would you recommend doing this?


Our current antenna wire runs from the much more distant current pole to the side of the attic--the tension has caused it to pull away from the wall so repair will be needed. Our satellite internet service is run from a dish with the cable buried for maybe 8 linear feet a few inches in the ground to the edge of our porch and then through the porch rafters and into the house. This works well. We would prefer to do the same with the antenna cable but the location it is coming from has a tendency to flood and remain in standing water for a few hours to a few days at a time in heavy rains. We intend to use RG6 quad shielded 75 ohm coax. Would the burying/flooding be a problem with reception or other issues? We feel we would again encounter problems with attachment/weight of cable if we run to the attic and since the new mast is higher the wire would run *down* to the attic thus possibly creating water infiltration issues even with a drip loop.


Thanks for any advice you can give.


----------



## Rick0725

the cm 4228 is a good choice but not sure it will be sufficient for the vhf later. there are a couple hi band vhf possibilities in your market but I do not have the fcc chart handy with me right now


I am leaning towards a 91xg and ya1713 ch 7-13 combo setup. If you need to add vhf later this combination is easier to stack on a mast.


----------



## Don F.

Need some advise on how high to go with a radio shack pole.


I have a 15 ft. mast that sits in a mount on the roof of my porch. Seven feet up, the mast is anchored to the eve of the house, four ft. higher I have three-way guy wires, a foot above the wires is a cm rotor. Currently I have a 5 ft. mast in the rotor with an xg91, YA1713 and preamp. I think that is around ten pounds. I want to go up another 5 feet. If the addition is no problem, I would add a support bearing about 18 inches above the rotor and another set of guy wires at that point.

That would put the height of the xg91 at 16 to 17 feet above the eve of the roof, and about 8 ft. above the last set of guy wires.

Safe or not? Thanks


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Damascada* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Our satellite internet service is run from a dish with the cable buried for maybe 8 linear feet a few inches in the ground to the edge of our porch and then through the porch rafters and into the house. This works well. We would prefer to do the same with the antenna cable but the location it is coming from has a tendency to flood and remain in standing water for a few hours to a few days at a time in heavy rains.



Cable meant for burial is available. If you use regular cable under those circumstances it's not going to last, unless you run it in conduit.


----------



## m_vanmeter

a suggestion would be to add the 5' section below the rotor and add another set of guy wires. Adding much more above the rotor, and unsupported, is almost a sure bet the next heavy wind will bend it at the least, bring it down at the worst. Your 5' above the rotor is enough for the CM rotor to handle.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don F.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Need some advise on how high to go with a radio shack pole.
> 
> 
> I have a 15 ft. mast that sits in a mount on the roof of my porch. Seven feet up, the mast is anchored to the eve of the house, four ft. higher I have three-way guy wires, a foot above the wires is a cm rotor. Currently I have a 5 ft. mast in the rotor with an xg91, YA1713 and preamp. I think that is around ten pounds. I want to go up another 5 feet. If the addition is no problem, I would add a support bearing about 18 inches above the rotor and another set of guy wires at that point.
> 
> That would put the height of the xg91 at 16 to 17 feet above the eve of the roof, and about 8 ft. above the last set of guy wires.
> 
> Safe or not? Thanks



You don't need two sets of guy wires.Use a rotor support bearing,overlap about 3ft,attach the guy wires to the bearing and you're done.If you use a 10ft section of antenna mast you'll have 7ft above the bearing,plenty of room for the two antennas.


----------



## Rick0725

I would still limit the length of the mast above the rotor to a trimmed 5' heavy duty mast. with the ya1713 as close to the rotor as possible (less than a foot) and the 91xg about 3.5' above the ya1713.


an alternatve to guys...try 1.25" emt conduit bent/molded to attach to the roof and below the rotor if you are able. extremely sturdy and something to hold onto when you are puttering on the roof.


I tried 7.5' above the rotor at my home earlier this year and the mast bent from the wind in less than 6 months and caused the rotor to bind. so I would not suggest that. had to replace and go shorter.


see pic for example.


----------



## Don F.

Rick, Max, & m_..... Thanks for the suggestions on the antenna height question.


I will temporally add 5 ft. from the bottom just to see if my signal improves. If there is no benefit, I will leave the antenna as it is today. If it helps, wish me luck. I have about 4ft. of separation between the ya1713 and xg91. I was concerned that was not enough, but acorrding to your info that should be good. The xg is at the top of the mast.

I have been very pleased with this combo, viewing stations 80 miles away on a regular basis.

Thanks again for your help!!


----------



## Boxcar74

Just to let you know, I am very new at this.


I live about 10 miles from most of the towers, and trying to get the digital broadcasts from my local stations. I live in a small condo so an outdoor antenna is out. I am currently using rabit ears and they just aren't cutting it. Does anyone have any suggestions for a good small indoor antenna?


----------



## tokerblue




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Boxcar74* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live in a small condo so an outdoor antenna is out. I am currently using rabit ears and they just aren't cutting it. Does anyone have any suggestions for a good small indoor antenna?



- I would go to the local HDTV forum and see what other people in your area are using. I've tried a lot of different indoor antennas and the only one I've had success with is the Zenith Silver Sensor. The biggest problem with it though is that it is very directional, so I was constantly moving it when changing channels.


I ended up with an outdoor andtenna because of this.


----------



## MLock

I posted this in the Indianapolis thread, but it may be more appropriate here.


I'm brand new to HDTV; just got a great television and am awaiting D* hookup. However, my local CBS affiliate is not carried on D* so I need to be able to pick it up OTA. This station is the ONLY one in Indy to broadcast its HD on a VHF frequency; all the others are on UHF.


Because I'm constrained (legally, I'm beginning to think) by Murphy's Law, I can get every single HD station that's on UHF quite well. I am using just a $20 antenna (VHF and UHF) I got at Circuit City, and my signal is upwards of 80 on every station.


Antennaweb tells me that this CBS affiliate should be the *easiest* chann for me to pick up -- but I don't get anything at all. No pixellation, no information -- it just isn't there at all.


I'm hoping I'm just doing something dumb. That would also, unfortunately, be quite common... but easier to fix!


Thanks for any help you can provide.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MLock* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> II'm brand new to HDTV; just got a great television and am awaiting D* hookup. However, my local CBS affiliate is not carried on D* so I need to be able to pick it up OTA. This station is the ONLY one in Indy to broadcast its HD on a VHF frequency; all the others are on UHF.
> 
> 
> Because I'm constrained (legally, I'm beginning to think) by Murphy's Law, I can get every single HD station that's on UHF quite well. I am using just a $20 antenna (VHF and UHF) I got at Circuit City, and my signal is upwards of 80 on every station.
> 
> 
> Antennaweb tells me that this CBS affiliate should be the *easiest* chann for me to pick up -- but I don't get anything at all. No pixellation, no information -- it just isn't there at all.



If you provide your zip code, we can look up how far you are from the CBS station. You may need a more substantial VHF antenna. Looking up Indianapolis, the station is WISH-DT 8 on VHF 9. Have you optimized the length of your rabbit ears for VHF 9 (186 to 192 MHz) with the ears extended to about 32" in total length? Also the open plane of the ears should be facing in the direction of the station.


----------



## MLock

Thanks for the offer. My zip is 46259.


I'll do as you say on the ears and report back.


----------



## jtbell

I'm looking for some advice about mounting a replacement outdoor antenna setup.

Here's a picture of what I have now , a Radio Shack VU-190XR combination VHF/UHF antenna on an old mast mounted at the side of my house. If you look closely, you can see the mast below the rotator is in three sections. The third section is shorter because about two years ago, my neighbor's tree trimmers knocked down my previous antenna, kinking the top few feet of the mast over sharply. I bought the RS antenna, which is somewhat larger than its predecessor, and the neighbor and a friend mounted it and the rotator on the stump left over after sawing off the kinked-over portion of the mast.


After this happened, I got into digital TV, and I now know that I don't need low VHF capability any more. Therefore I'd like to replace this antenna with a combination of Antennasdirect 91XG for UHF and Winegard YA-1713 for high-VHF, and replace the mast while I'm at it.


Would it be feasible to go with a three-section mast again? As you can see from the picture, the second section of the existing mast ends about a foot or so above the peak of the roof. The previous antenna was probably about 10' above that, but it was smaller than the one I have now. With the combination I want, it looks like I'd want the VHF about 1' above the rotator, and the UHF about 3' above that.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MLock* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the offer. My zip is 46259.
> 
> 
> I'll do as you say on the ears and report back.



Looking at the antennaweb results for your zip code, you are on the outer edges or outside of what normally be considered viable for an indoor antenna in many places. The antennaweb results for your zip code and a antenna height of 150' under options to get a more complete lists shows the following digital stations:


* yellow - uhf WTHR-DT 13.1 NBC INDIANAPOLIS IN 337° 21.1 46

* yellow - uhf WRTV-DT 6.1 ABC INDIANAPOLIS IN 331° 19.9 25

* yellow - uhf WCLJ-DT 56.1 TBN BLOOMINGTON IN 208° 19.1 56

* yellow - uhf WFYI-DT 20.1 PBS INDIANAPOLIS IN 331° 19.9 21

* yellow - uhf WIPX-DT 63.1 ION BLOOMINGTON IN 207° 19.0 27

* yellow - vhf WISH-DT 8.1 CBS INDIANAPOLIS IN 330° 19.5 9

* yellow - uhf WXIN-DT 59.1 FOX INDIANAPOLIS IN 330° 19.3 45

* yellow - uhf WDTI-DT 44 PBS INDIANAPOLIS IN TBD 330° 19.3 44

* yellow - uhf WNDY-DT 23.1 MNT MARION IN 9° 34.2 32

* red - uhf WTTV-DT 29.1 CW BLOOMINGTON IN 208° 18.9 48

* violet - uhf WTIU-DT 30.1 PBS BLOOMINGTON IN 220° 44.3 14

* violet - uhf WHMB-DT 40.1 IND INDIANAPOLIS IN 6° 24.8 16


You have Indianapolis stations 19 miles to the NW and a CW station in Bloomington ~ 19 miles to the S. You have the one upper VHF station, WISH-DT on VHF 9. In February, 2009, after the analog shutdown, WTHR-DT NBC 13 will switch from UHF 46 to VHF 13. Since you are doing ok, with the indoor antenna, see if you can get better results putting it high up in a window or upstairs.


Since you are using D*, you might want to consider mounting a Channel Master 4220 two bay bowtie or CM 4221 4 Bay bowtie outside and using a diplexer to connect it to the D* STB or TV. The CM 4221 in the attic with a separate cable run is another option. Based on my results with the CM 4221, it has a good shot at picking up a strong VHF 9 station at 19 miles. If you got either antenna, I would experiment with the aim to try to pull in the stations in both places.


----------



## dotay

I've currently got a Zenith ZHDTV1 silverstar antenna that worked great for a while but I've recently moved a little further away from the source so I am looking to go for an in attic model. I doubt I'll need anything powered since I'm still pretty close but I'm not sure what would best suit my needs.


Call Sign Channel Network City State Compass Miles Frequency

WANE-DT 15.1 CBS FORT WAYNE IN 335° 3.1 31

WISE-DT 33.1 NBC FORT WAYNE IN 338° 3.0 19

WPTA-DT 21.1 ABC FORT WAYNE IN 336° 3.7 24

WFWA-DT 39.1 PBS FORT WAYNE IN 333° 4.0 40

WFFT-DT 55.1 FOX FORT WAYNE IN 333° 4.4 36


Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## MLock




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Looking at the antennaweb results for your zip code, you are on the outer edges or outside of what normally be considered viable for an indoor antenna in many places. The antennaweb results for your zip code and a antenna height of 150' under options to get a more complete lists shows the following digital stations:




Your advice is all sound, and I think I will eventually put an antenna of some sort in my attic -- when it isn't 112 degrees up there. But for now, the resolution was oh so much simpler.


The TV I bought is a Sony KDS-55A2020. It has two auto-detect options, "Analog" and "Digital". (You probably already know what's going to happen) Of course, I kept telling it to auto-find digital channels (tuning directly to, say, 8.1 or 9 without doing the auto-find yielded nothing but snow), and it would find all of them I wanted except WISH (9, or 8.1). I, of course, just *knew* it was because my VHF antenna stunk.


Well, for the heck of it, this afternoon I ran a "full scan" which finds both analog and digital. Bingo. It found 10 analog and 24 digital. One of them is a 78-strong WISH-HD signal.


Apparently, to Sony, at least on this model, when you tell it to scan for "digital", it scans only UHF for digital. When you tell it to scan for analog, it scans both VHF and UHF for analog. If you tell it to scan both, that's the only time it'll find digital on VHF.


Thanks very much for your help. I'll be doing an attic installation but I won't be in such a rush now.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler

Does anyone know if TV stations adjust their transmission power around sunrise/sunset like many radio stations do?


----------



## Neil L

I don't know for sure, but I don't think TV stations ever adjust their power. However, sunrise and sunsets do provide the kind of temperature inversions that provide good dx'ing.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MLock* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Apparently, to Sony, at least on this model, when you tell it to scan for "digital", it scans only UHF for digital. When you tell it to scan for analog, it scans both VHF and UHF for analog. If you tell it to scan both, that's the only time it'll find digital on VHF.



Wow. Who wrote that software? There are currently several hundred full power stations with digital VHF channels and we will have around 500 total on VHF after the analog shutdown. Are people going to have to "full" analog scans to get their stations after analog goes away? This is a big enough bug that Sony should be required to send out a firmware update to fix it.


Impressive that the indoor tabletop antenna works at 19 miles. Good luck.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dotay* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I've currently got a Zenith ZHDTV1 silverstar antenna that worked great for a while but I've recently moved a little further away from the source so I am looking to go for an in attic model. I doubt I'll need anything powered since I'm still pretty close but I'm not sure what would best suit my needs.
> 
> 
> Call Sign Channel Network City State Compass Miles Frequency
> 
> WANE-DT 15.1 CBS FORT WAYNE IN 335° 3.1 31
> 
> WISE-DT 33.1 NBC FORT WAYNE IN 338° 3.0 19
> 
> WPTA-DT 21.1 ABC FORT WAYNE IN 336° 3.7 24
> 
> WFWA-DT 39.1 PBS FORT WAYNE IN 333° 4.0 40
> 
> WFFT-DT 55.1 FOX FORT WAYNE IN 333° 4.4 36



What results are you getting with the Silver Sensor from your new location? If the antennaweb list is for your new location, you are only 3 to 4 miles, so the Silver Sensor is a good bet to work.


But for an attic antenna suggestions, all 5 of the digital stations are on UHF and will stay on UHF after the analog shutdown (which makes sense as their analog channels are all UHF). A Channel Master 4220 two bay UHF antenna is a good candidate for your location. Remember, that attics can have dead zones. My solution was to mount a CM 4221 on a flat piece of scrap wood using mounting bracket so I could slide the antenna around in the attic until I found a good spot.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I don't know for sure, but I don't think TV stations ever adjust their power. However, sunrise and sunsets do provide the kind of temperature inversions that provide good dx'ing.



Over the last few weeks I've been trying to determine the best antenna positions in my home for various tv stations, and I cant seem to nail it down because even local stations' strengths seem to change (from time to time) for no apparent reason. Tonite I noticed a drop in signal strength of my local stations over the half hour period that sundown occured. So it clicked in my mind. Maybe they're changing their broadcast strength the way radio stations do.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MLock* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Apparently, to Sony, at least on this model, when you tell it to scan for "digital", it scans only UHF for digital. When you tell it to scan for analog, it scans both VHF and UHF for analog. If you tell it to scan both, that's the only time it'll find digital on VHF.
> 
> 
> Thanks very much for your help. I'll be doing an attic installation but I won't be in such a rush now.



Interesting info. Thank you for sharing this. Apparently somebody at Sony doesn't realize that there are some VHF digital channels, with many more coming in '09. I will have to watch out for this when the time comes.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Is there a small VHF antenna that would be good for testing purposes? I thought this was a simple matter of getting rabbit-ears but perhaps not.
> 
> 
> I am currently trying an RCA ANT115 as a test antenna and the UHF loop does ok, but it is horrible at VHF, even with the dipoles fully extended.
> 
> 
> I used this antenna to test reception in the Mystic CT area and I couldn't get hardly anything on WFSB 3 no matter what I tried. The result didn't surprise me considering what I was dealing with there. However, now that I am back in CA, with a mostly clear view of Mt. Wilson (from Irvine), I am having no luck getting KCBS 2. Channels 4 and 5 are very weak, though it improves a bit for VHF-High.
> 
> 
> I had an older pair of rabbit ears that went missing. I seem to remember those working much better than this before I put up the CM4228. However, the old rabbit ears did not have a UHF loop and I had a balun attached. The RCA ANT115 just has a (very thin) Coax cable coming out of the base.
> 
> 
> This seems like a silly question, but what is a good pair of test rabbit-ears? Perhaps it is as simple as finding another pair w/o the UHF loop combo.



The problem with Rabbit Ears is they aren't even CLOSE to the right size for low-band VHF....

and hence, the impedance is (cough-cough) "indeterminate".....


Here are instructions for building a DIY Folded Dipole (0 dbd gain), with optional Reflector (+3 dBd)

and Director (+5 dBd) elements to turn it into a single channel Yagi-Uda antenna:
http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html 

Note CH2 requires a Dipole element that is 2.5 meters long.....try THAT with Rabbit Ears!!!!


PS: A Folded Dipole is nominally 300-ohm, eliminating the lossy balun transformer.


----------



## Nitewatchman

while the "rod" antennas included with for instance, small portable TV's sometimes aren't even long enough to be a 1/4 wavelength vertical on low VHF, Most rabbit ears I've ever used are center fed dipole(therefore 300Ohms) and can be extended such that they are (more or less) a 1/2 wave dipole on channel 2, which is approx 8.5 feet.

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> while the "rod" antennas included with for instance, small portable TV's sometimes aren't even long enough to be a 1/4 wavelength vertical on low VHF, Most rabbit ears I've ever used are center fed dipole(therefore 300Ohms) and can be extended such that they are (more or less) a 1/2 wave dipole on channel 2, which is approx 8.5 feet.
> 
> http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html



Uhhhmmm......Center Fed Dipoles are nominal 75-ohm impedance at resonance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipole_antenna 

and should be connected to 75-ohm coax via a 1:1 Balun Transformer (balanced to unbalanced)....

(or equivalent).... which I bet most cheap Rabbit Ear Antennas simply omit....like in the wikipedia article!!!!


Folded Dipole is nominal 300-ohm:
http://personal.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Pers...es/rodres.html 

And can be connected directly to 300-ohm Preamp or TV input and requires a

readily available 300:75-ohm Balun Transformer (or Quarter-Wave Stub Transformer per above article)

for connection to 75-ohm coax.


FYI: Fol. website claims to calculate Folded Dipole Impedance for arbitrary element

sizes and spacings:
http://www.n-lemma.com/calcs/dipole/


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Uhhhmmm......Center Fed Dipoles are nominal 75-ohm impedance at resonance:/[/url]



Good point, thanks for the correction.


72 Ohms is actually what I remembered(but not well enough!) from "radio school", dunno why I was thinking of center fed rabbit ears as 300 ohms(it never worked that way for center fed dipoles for HF - such as "inverted vee's" ....) ...


Anyway, same info is also here in #2 section of below link, and I also wonder why they don't say anything about the typical impedance of your run of the mill "rabbit ears", given they do talk a lot about how to make the most out of them(rabbit ears) at their site ... :

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennat...ennatypes.html 


And here's another graphic of a folded dipole made out of twinlead :

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennatypes/twinlead.jpg 



> Quote:
> which I bet most cheap Rabbit Ear Antennas simply omit....



I dunno, but other than comparing their performance with other antennas(such as folded dipole) expect you'd probably pretty much have to destroy them to find out .... i.e. just exactly what(if anything) is in that hard plastic between the "ears" ? ... It certianly does seem to usually be 300 Ohm balanced line coming "out" of that plastic ...... Of course, there are cheap rabbit ears out there these days with coax coming out of that plastic "stuff" as well .....


---------------


Update .... Hmmm ... here's perhaps another bit of an interesting "rabbit ear" read ..

http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/rabbit.htm


----------



## dotay




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What results are you getting with the Silver Sensor from your new location? If the antennaweb list is for your new location, you are only 3 to 4 miles, so the Silver Sensor is a good bet to work.
> 
> 
> But for an attic antenna suggestions, all 5 of the digital stations are on UHF and will stay on UHF after the analog shutdown (which makes sense as their analog channels are all UHF). A Channel Master 4220 two bay UHF antenna is a good candidate for your location. Remember, that attics can have dead zones. My solution was to mount a CM 4221 on a flat piece of scrap wood using mounting bracket so I could slide the antenna around in the attic until I found a good spot.



Thanks for the reply.


It's good at times but I have to point across the seating area and it seems very susceptible to any movement in front of the antenna. I suppose I could try this antenna in the attic as well and see what kind of results I get. Does anyone have any experience with the Silver Sensor in an attic? The antenna you suggested doesn't seem too pricey though so I might just pick one of those up to try it out.


Are there any general rules to try to stick to as far as placement goes, closer/further away from a wall is better?


----------



## lasko

I need to point in two diffent directions to get all my local HD channels. I do not want a large antenna and rotor. Found the Phillips MANT940 works really well and is small in size. Already have a roof mast mounted so I would like to combine them at the roof so I don't have to run another cable to the basement. Is there some sort of splitter/combiner that would work?


----------



## Neil L

lasko,

You might want to look into a Jointenna. Search this forum and this very topic for information.


----------



## mamaduce

I replaced my DB2 from Directv with a radio shack VU-90 XR in hopes that I would be able to pick up a few distant channels in Austin, TX (about 55 miles away). They were intermittently coming in with the DB2 I thought with the bigger antenna they would pop right in. They do sometimes at night or when the wind blows the right direction, but not for very long. Do you think a pre-amp would help the stations come in and stay in. My zip is 76542 and the stations in Austin I want to pick up are 24-1 and 7-1, 42-1, and 54-1. I saw a winegard 8700 in a local store was wondering if that model is worth trying. Don't know anything about antennas and any info will help.


----------



## CT_Wiebe

Rick0725 -- I have a CM 4228 and it is a very good antenna (it replaced a 30 year old VHF/UHF antenna). I am 50 miles from most of the local network towers and the local PBS tower is 18+ miles away and 30 degrees off axis, but still comes in strong (I don't have to use my rotator at all). All the HD OTA channels have excellent picture quality.


From what I've read, the CM 4228 works down below the analog channel 7 frequency (at least analog channel 9 comes in at my house and its tower is also 50 mile away). See the Channel Master web site. It does have a gain roll-off in the high UHF bands, but those will be going way too. The usability of the antenna below channel 14 is supposed to be undesirable, but it really isn't for those areas of the country that will be using the high VHF for digital TV. The Winegard equivalent of the CM 4228, doesn't have that "advantage".


----------



## MeowMeow

The next antenna I buy, I intend to try the 91xg. I have the CM 4228, and it does pretty respectably, considering I'm in TV reception hell. I live halfway down a valley, my channels are spread across from 75 degrees all the way to 285. I have numerous surrounding large trees, and all but one of my signals must cross directly over the town and a large opposing ridge that is 200 feet higher that where I am.


I have noticed that the high UHF issue with the CM 4228 is not limited to 50+. KDKA in Pittsburgh (UHF 25) is a solid lock from 200-260 degrees all the time while all the higher channel DTV Pittsburgh stations come in intermittently depending mostly on time of day at 240-250 degrees.


I have to think this is an example of where the 91xg's considerably better directionality and stronger gain on higher UHF would be helpful.


Also, it ought to be taken into consideration that the CM 4228 is a mammoth antenna especially if you're installing it by yourself. Once you add two masts, a rotor, a VHF antenna, a pre-amp and a tripod... well, that's a hell of a lot weight to move around on a roof.


----------



## T-Techster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mamaduce* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I replaced my DB2 from Directv with a radio shack VU-90 XR in hopes that I would be able to pick up a few distant channels in Austin, TX (about 55 miles away). They were intermittently coming in with the DB2 I thought with the bigger antenna they would pop right in. They do sometimes at night or when the wind blows the right direction, but not for very long. Do you think a pre-amp would help the stations come in and stay in. My zip is 76542 and the stations in Austin I want to pick up are 24-1 and 7-1, 42-1, and 54-1. I saw a winegard 8700 in a local store was wondering if that model is worth trying. Don't know anything about antennas and any info will help.



A pre-amp will definitely help. Since you're in Killeen, that's close enough to pick up the Austin HD signals (unless your southern line of sight is obstructed). I read some other posts about reception being good in the 80 mile range, but pre-amp was needed.


All the Austin HD signals are currently on UHF. But in 2009 when the analog is gone, KTBC (FOX) will move the digital signal over to VHF Ch. 7.


So it's good that you got a VHF/UHF antenna.


----------



## mamaduce

Thanks, I will try the pre-amp and let you know if it works


----------



## videobruce

I know this has been brought up many times and I'm sure it works to some extent to eliminate the need for a rotor, but combining two antennas, pointing different directions, is it really worth while?


Using the 4228 copy cat DB-8 as example in one direction and a DB-4 in the other, considering the loss of the additional splitter, to combine both antennas, to me, all I see is additional loss on top of the issue of receiving reflections from the antenna of the opposite direction.


What do you guys think?


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> What do you guys think?



I think those are DB-4 and DB-8. But yeah, combining antennas pointing in different directions without a Jointenna is probably not such a great idea. For instance, combining two 4-bays pointed in opposite directions gives you at best the same gain as one 4-bay with the screen removed.


----------



## lamartina

im in forest, va (24551-1035) and have no idea on what type of antenna to get....... i cant get any channels except for WSET (abc) in Lynchburg, va with my Phillips indoor antenna. i can get a signal strength of about 0%-10% on all the other stations based in Roanoke, Richmond, AND Charlottesville.........although Richmond is 70+ miles away, and Charlottesville is about 62 miles away.............. any help would be appreciated.


----------



## jspENC

You need a low band VHF antenna for PBS on channel 3 and a UHF antenna. You could either go with seperate antenna's or could go for one of those big combo antenna's with UHF corner reflector.


Here's the link I looked at with the zip code http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=29


----------



## jtbell

The problem with combining two antennas pointing in different directions is that the antenna pointing in direction 1 still picks up a reduced signal from direction 2, and vice versa. When you add the two signals for the same channel together, they're time-shifted a bit with respect to each other, which gives you multipath interference.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The problem with combining two antennas pointing in different directions is that the antenna pointing in direction 1 still picks up a reduced signal from direction 2, and vice versa. When you add the two signals for the same channel together, they're time-shifted a bit with respect to each other, which gives you multipath interference.



True, but that could be almost eliminated by stacking the two bow-tie antennas above each other. (Yagi's are another matter) The other issue is reflections that could be picked up by the wrong antenna.


If the home has few reflecting surfaces in the main beam of either of the two antennas it much more likely to work with simple unfiltered combining than in a location surrounded by buildings.


----------



## christ1

I live in downtown Baltimore, MD and I am looking into receiving OTA HD stations from DC. Looking at antenna web, I get the following for DC stations.


blue - uhf WDCW-DT 50.1 CW WASHINGTON DC 238° 32.6 51

blue - uhf WJLA-DT 7.1 ABC WASHINGTON DC 240° 35.2 39

blue - uhf WUSA-DT 9.1 CBS WASHINGTON DC 240° 35.2 34

blue - uhf WTTG-DT 5.1 FOX WASHINGTON DC 241° 35.1 36

blue - uhf WRC-DT 4.1 NBC WASHINGTON DC 239° 35.8 48


A distance of 35 miles and a medium directional with preamp. My question is, can I receive these DC stations reliably from this distance, especially on Sundays for Redskins games? What would be the best antenna; people seem the like Channel Master? Also, do I need anything else besides an antenna? I have a HDTV with a built in tuner. Thanks.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *christ1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live in downtown Baltimore, MD and I am looking into receiving OTA HD stations from DC. Looking at antenna web, I get the following for DC stations...
> 
> 
> WDCW-DT 50.1...
> 
> WJLA-DT 7.1...
> 
> WUSA-DT 9.1...
> 
> WTTG-DT 5.1...
> 
> WRC-DT 4.1
> 
> 
> A distance of 35 miles and a medium directional with preamp. My question is, can I receive these DC stations reliably from this distance, especially on Sundays for Redskins games?



There are tall buildings in downtown Baltimore. If any interdict your antenna path, they will make it impossible to reliably predict the reception quality at your location. If any are positioned so as to be the source of multipath reflections, they will also degrede your signal quality in a manner that we cannot predict.


The fact that channel 20.1 doesn't show up on your list is troubling. It could indicate that there is a hill between you and the Washington transmitters, or it just could be that the antennaweb data has not been revised to reflect the fact that channel 20.1 significantly increased its power about a year ago.


It's time to start experimenting. With antennas, bigger is better and higher is better, but of you are in an apartment and can't roof mount, you might as well start with something small but efficient that you can move around, like a Silver Sensor or a 2-bay bowtie. An amplifier will probably not help you and would probably be overloaded by your local UHF transmitters.


If you can't find a reliable, universal antenna position, your goal would be to find the spots where each station that provides unique programming can most reliably be received.


----------



## videobruce

nybbler; Yes you are right (previous post corrected). Those are the first DB4/8 antennas I have seen locally. They are such a copy cat (rip off) of the Channel Master design, at 2x the price, I can't see they are worth it.


christ1; since I have no idea exactly where you are, I came up with this starting point;
http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/maps...onf=mapnew.con 


That gave me this;
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/defaul...=Show+Stations 


Those five 'locals' are just 3 miles away with another one 8 miles away. *ANY* amp (especially a preamp) will be overloaded with stations that close even though the Washington stations are SW of you and the Baltimore 'locals' are SE (with the reference chosen). Though they are 90 degrees apart which will help, I can't see how any amp would work. 35 miles isn't that far, but since I don't know the terrain and as the previous poster mentioned, tall buildings will be a major factor.


BTW; welcome to the forums.


----------



## videobruce

lamartina; with this as reference;
http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/maps...24551__Forest_ 


I got this;
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/defaul...=Show+Stations 


My first question is; how high up are you and how 'hilly' is the terrain? You will need a good antenna array for most of that list along with a good preamp.


BTW; welcome to the forums.


----------



## christ1

videobruce


I don't have enough posts to put links in but I got pretty much the same result using the 2150 site for my specific location.


When you say amp, is this the same as the antenna? And you say "I can't see how any amp would work," does that mean that whatever antenna I get, the DC stations will be overloaded by the Baltimore stations? I guess I will just have to pay for NFL sunday ticket to watch Redskins games.


----------



## lamartina

thx, well, about the terrain, i live in the foothills of the BLUE RIDGE MTNS (Allegheny Mtn range), so its very 'hilly'.


im about 795 ft. above sea level.


----------



## Mloot

I think videobruce is meaning something like a pre-amp, which is a device attached to the mast of an outdoor antenna and then plugged into a wall socket inside the home in order to amplify the signal coming from the antenna. It could also apply to any number of indoor antennas that have a built-in amplifier.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *christ1* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I live in downtown Baltimore, MD and I am looking into receiving OTA HD stations from DC. Looking at antenna web, I get the following for DC stations.
> 
> 
> A distance of 35 miles and a medium directional with preamp. My question is, can I receive these DC stations reliably from this distance, especially on Sundays for Redskins games? What would be the best antenna; people seem the like Channel Master? Also, do I need anything else besides an antenna? I have a HDTV with a built in tuner. Thanks.



The key question is what is your view to the southwest in the direction of DC? Do you have tall buildings in the way? Also, do you want to get the Baltimore and other stations in the area as well as the DC stations? Are you in a condo/apartment or in a house/rowhouse where you have access to an attic or roof?


All of the digital stations in Baltimore, DC, and in the area are currently on UHF. But WJLA-DT 7, WUSA-DT 9, WBAL-DT 11, WJZ-DT 13 will switch their digital channels to their upper VHF channels after the analog shutdown in February, 2009. Check the first post of the Washington DC - Baltimore thread in the locals forum for digital channel assignments.


I get the Baltimore (43 miles), DC stations (16 miles), and several others from Sterling, VA with a Channel Master 4221 4 Bay bowtie in my attic. However, I recently added a Winegard YA-6713 upper VHF antenna to be prepared so I can get the more distant upper VHF stations in Baltimore after the analog shutdown.


You are probably too close to the Baltimore stations to use a pre-amp. But you should not need a pre-amp for pickup at 35 miles, depending on terrain and how long the cable run is. If you can provide us more information, then we can provide more help.


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> But WJLA-DT 7, WUSA-DT 9, WBAL-DT 11, WJZ-DT 13 will switch their digital channels to their upper VHF channels after the analog shutdown in February, 2009.



Where did you get that from? All those digital channels are UHF.


----------



## videobruce

Concern here is what is between you and them and how high.


----------



## lamartina

the mountains with an elevation of any where from 1,000-4,000 ft.


----------



## christ1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The key question is what is your view to the southwest in the direction of DC? Do you have tall buildings in the way? Also, do you want to get the Baltimore and other stations in the area as well as the DC stations? Are you in a condo/apartment or in a house/rowhouse where you have access to an attic or roof?
> 
> 
> All of the digital stations in Baltimore, DC, and in the area are currently on UHF. But WJLA-DT 7, WUSA-DT 9, WBAL-DT 11, WJZ-DT 13 will switch their digital channels to their upper VHF channels after the analog shutdown in February, 2009. Check the first post of the Washington DC - Baltimore thread in the locals forum for digital channel assignments.
> 
> 
> I get the Baltimore (43 miles), DC stations (16 miles), and several others from Sterling, VA with a Channel Master 4221 4 Bay bowtie in my attic. However, I recently added a Winegard YA-6713 upper VHF antenna to be prepared so I can get the more distant upper VHF stations in Baltimore after the analog shutdown.
> 
> 
> You are probably too close to the Baltimore stations to use a pre-amp. But you should not need a pre-amp for pickup at 35 miles, depending on terrain and how long the cable run is. If you can provide us more information, then we can provide more help.



There are a couple of 7-10 story buildings about a mile to the SW and a couple of smokestacks. Other than that everything is only 2-3 stories in the immediate vicinity. I am in a 2 story rowhome so I have easy access to the roof. I will have Baltimore HD channels with Directv so I only want the OTA DC stations. I am not thinking about 2009 because by then i might be in a different place and a different TV setup. Correct me if I am wrong but the OTA UHF HD channels will not be affected by the shutdown or will all channels be moving to VHF before the shutdown? How high would I need to place the antenna? If I don't need a pre-amp, the antenna is the only thing to purchase correct? Thanks a lot.


----------



## Neil L

christ1,


After the analog shut-off, UHF channels 52-69 will no longer be used for TV. And almost no one wants to use VHF channels 2-6, so the FCC is deciding what to do about that. A lot of stations are using temporary UHF channels for digital right now, and still have their analog channels where they have always been. When the analogs are shut down, many stations will want to keep the same channel assignment they had for analog, so they will move from their temporary assignment back to the old assignment, whether that was UHF or VHF.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Where did you get that from? All those digital channels are UHF.



The FCC final channel selection list, which is an update of the list that was put out in 2006, is available at http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/ . Read the document posted on May 18 under "Third Periodic Review of the Commission's Rules and Policies Affecting the Conversion to Digital Television" if you want to see some of the complex issues behind the digital transition.


A discussion of the final digital channel selection is at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=823166 . It has been established for some time that the four upper VHF stations in DC and Baltimore would be moving their digital channel from UHF to their analog channel after the analog shutdown. In fact, 517 full power stations (give or take a few final channel changes) across the US will be moving their digital channel to their current analog channel after the shutdown. As stated, the digital channel range will be from VHF 2 to UHF 51 after the shutdown, albeit with only 37 full power stations opting for low VHF 2 to 6. One of them is WPVI-DT ABC 6 in Philadelphia which will be a problem for anyone at further ranges from the station who put up a UHF only antenna for digital reception.


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> In fact, 517 full power stations (give or take a few final channel changes) across the US will be moving their digital channel to their current analog channel after the shutdown.



I understand some stations will revert back to VHF, but when I looked at a couple of the applications through the FCC database, they just showed UHF, no VHF was listed.


----------



## lamartina

and there are lots of trees that are over 30 feet tall.....


----------



## mamaduce




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *T-Techster* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A pre-amp will definitely help. Since you're in Killeen, that's close enough to pick up the Austin HD signals (unless your southern line of sight is obstructed). I read some other posts about reception being good in the 80 mile range, but pre-amp was needed.
> 
> 
> All the Austin HD signals are currently on UHF. But in 2009 when the analog is gone, KTBC (FOX) will move the digital signal over to VHF Ch. 7.
> 
> 
> So it's good that you got a VHF/UHF antenna.



We tried the pre-amp and lost some of the locals we had (Winegard 8700). Directv has the ota antenna running through a splitter to 2 receivers. Today we are going to try to run it straight to the tv and see if we get the same results.


----------



## PA_MainyYak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/11322811
> 
> 
> Where did you get that from? All those digital channels are UHF.



Only temporarily. On February 9, 2009, the Washington-Baltimore DTV lineup will look like this:


Station______________(Old Analog)__(New DTV)
*WJLA WASHINGTON............7__________7

WUSA WASHINGTON...........9__________9

WBAL BALTIMORE..............11_________11

WJZ BALTIMORE................13_________13*

WETA WASHINGTON...........26_________27

WMBP BALTIMORE..............67_________29

WHUT WASHINGTON...........32_________33

WDCA WASHINGTON...........20_________35

WTTG WASHINGTON............5_________36

WMAR BALTIMORE...............2_________38

WNUV BALTIMORE..............54_________40

WUTB BALTIMORE..............24_________41

WBFF BALTIMORE..............45_________46

WRC WASHINGTON.............4_________48

WDCW WASHINGTON.........50_________50



The complete list is on the FCC web site:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-07-138A2.xls


----------



## Falcon_77

Would it be practical to build an LPDA antenna for VHF-HI? What I'm thinking of is building a VHF antenna similar to what a Silver Sensor accomplishes for UHF. I suppose the lower frequencies (even for VHF-HI) doesn't make this practical, but thought I would ask why I only seem to find Yagi's for VHF-HI (other than rabbit ears).


Is there a construction guide for LPDA's?


If std. dipole lengths apply, The Silver Sensor appears to be made to support considerably higher frequencies than we need. As I understand it, the Silver Sensor was a UK imported design, so that might make sense. It also can be assembled in vertical polarization mode, which is rather useless here.


----------



## nybbler

Most full-band VHF TV antennas are LPDAs or log-cell yagis. Probably most VHF-Hi only antennas are straight Yagis because of the relatively smaller bandwidth needed, and the simpler Yagi construction.


Wade advertises a few LPDA VHF-hi antennas but they're CATV antennas and presumably priced accordingly.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/11351747
> 
> 
> Would it be practical to build an LPDA antenna for VHF-HI? What I'm thinking of is building a VHF antenna similar to what a Silver Sensor accomplishes for UHF. I suppose the lower frequencies (even for VHF-HI) doesn't make this practical, but thought I would ask why I only seem to find Yagi's for VHF-HI (other than rabbit ears).




Channels 14-51's center frequencies span from 473MHz to 693Mhz, while Channels 7-13's are 177MHz to 213MHz. This is pretty much a 3 to 1 ratio. So it might be worth a saturday afternoon to put together a SS clone that's scaled up 3 to 1 in size. I've no idea what it will do in terms of impedences, but the wavelengths should be right for the physical dimensions. Try it and let us all know how it works out.


----------



## AntAltMike

Buy yourself a copy of the ARRL antenna book. I bet you can find one on eBay for a few dollars. For your purposes, it won't matter how old it is. It should give you guidelines on building your own antenna that will be much better conceived than anything that you yourself could concoct experimentally.


----------



## Zero HD

I have a Sammy 4661 with an ATSC tuner in it. I am on the 15th floor of an apartment building in Hamilton, Ontario that looks over the water all the way to Toronto (about 45 kilometers straight across. Up until now I was using a crappy philips powered indoor antenna but had to put it on my balcony to get the Toronto stations.


I am interested in getting an antenna that is a bit larger but not full sized, maybe one of the flat wall mounted ones that I could install on my balcony, any recommendations?


----------



## lemmalone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/11351747
> 
> 
> Would it be practical to build an LPDA antenna for VHF-HI?



You might go to this thread. There are posts by serndipity and others on lpdas, and although I think he was aiming at higher frequencies, you might find some ideas. Also, some people made double-quad reflectors, and I seem to recall that they were aimed at VHF.

http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9613


----------



## MAX HD

I remember seeing a post recently on here,or maybe another forum,where someone built their own highband antenna and had it in their attic with nice pictures.The elements were fastened to a large board.IIRC,it was round a 10 element,or thereabouts.I'll poke around and see if I can find it.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/11370038
> 
> 
> I remember seeing a post recently on here,or maybe another forum,where someone built their own highband antenna and had it in their attic with nice pictures.The elements were fastened to a large board.IIRC,it was round a 10 element,or thereabouts.I'll poke around and see if I can find it.



This is weird. I never look at this thread but I did today. You may be referring to me. Here's the info:

http://www.aa6g.org/Lp/lp.html 


If anyone is going to build it, build the 12 element version. It's better on channel 13.


Chuck


----------



## T-Techster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mamaduce* /forum/post/11336122
> 
> 
> We tried the pre-amp and lost some of the locals we had (Winegard 8700). Directv has the ota antenna running through a splitter to 2 receivers. Today we are going to try to run it straight to the tv and see if we get the same results.



If you have too much signal from your local analog UHF channels (Ch 25, 44, etc) the pre-amp might over amplify and cause some harmonics and distortion. If the pre-amp is getting too much signal from the local analog stations, it will kill your digital reception on the Austin stations you're trying to pick up.


Good idea to try and bypass the splitter. You can also try and point the antenna slightly more to the SW. Since the 8700 is directional, this might reduce the signal you're getting off the back end (local analog from towers between Temple and Waco).


----------



## lamartina

Is the ANTENNA CRAFT MXU59 a good choice? or are the CM4228 and 91XG better choices?, in other words, what are the differences?


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Zero HD* /forum/post/11361260
> 
> 
> I have a Sammy 4661 with an ATSC tuner in it. I am on the 15th floor of an apartment building in Hamilton, Ontario that looks over the water all the way to Toronto (about 45 kilometers straight across. Up until now I was using a crappy philips powered indoor antenna but had to put it on my balcony to get the Toronto stations.
> 
> 
> I am interested in getting an antenna that is a bit larger but not full sized, maybe one of the flat wall mounted ones that I could install on my balcony, any recommendations?



If the digital stations in Toronto are all on UHF, the Channel Master 4220 2 Bay bowtie should outperform the Philips indoor antenna. The CM 4220 is fairly new, but it a half sized CM 4221 4 Bay. The CM 4220 is sold by some vendors with a satellite dish type wall mount ( http://www.pctinternational.com/channelmaster/0612/ ). See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html for comparisions of some antenna models.


----------



## mamaduce

Directv has a lot of splitters and diplexers running everywhere, that we don't know which cable goes to what. We hired a private contractor to come out the end of the week to clean them up and remove all those excess splitters and diplexer. He couldn't believe all the splitter that directv had installed over the 10 years we have had them. Will try your suggestion as soon as he cleans up all the cables. Thank for your help T-Techster


----------



## videobruce

For those of you that are looking at those DB4 & DB8 antennas, MCM is now carrying these "Terrestrial Digital" models that Antennas Direct sells.

The catalog numbers are; 30-2066 (DB4) $50 & 30-2067 (DB8) $81. Still overpriced compared to the 4224 & the 4228, but cheaper than what I have seen elsewhere.

The also sell the 2 bay version (30-2065), but at $36, that is over 2x the price of this same antenna ($16 dealer cost);
http://www.petra.com/product_info.ph...id=EASDTV2BUHF 


They also have three 'yagis';

30-2070 15 element, 35" boom ($43 "installer price"),


43XG (30-2071) 43 element 62" boom ($58 "installer price");
http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?...5Fid=30%2D2071 


91XG (30-2072) 91 element, 93" boom ($81 "installer price");
http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?...5Fid=30%2D2072 


They also have what appears to be a rip off of a older BT broadband amp; 36db gain w/ a FM trap and adjustable gain,

($18 "installer price" in their latest flyer) 33-8745;
http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?...5Fid=33%2D8745


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/11370552
> 
> http://www.aa6g.org/Lp/lp.html
> 
> 
> If anyone is going to build it, build the 12 element version. It's better on channel 13.
> 
> 
> Chuck



Thank you for the responses. It appears that even a VHF-HI LPDA will need to be fairly large.


I will see if I can find that book as well. Right now I have the 1998 "Practical Antenna Handbook" (Carr), which I have not found to be very practical with someone of my skill level.


I will see what I can come up with.


Thanks again,


----------



## 99gecko




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/11376664
> 
> 
> If the digital stations in Toronto are all on UHF, the Channel Master 4220 2 Bay bowtie should outperform the Philips indoor antenna. The CM 4220 is fairly new, but it a half sized CM 4221 4 Bay. The CM 4220 is sold by some vendors with a satellite dish type wall mount ( http://www.pctinternational.com/channelmaster/0612/ ). See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html for comparisions of some antenna models.



afiggatt,

Unfortunately *ZeroHD* is going after some very low powered stations. They range in power from CITY-DT @ 1.2 kW to CBLT-DT (CBC) @ 38 kW ERP. However, elevation is in ZeroHD's favour as most Toronto stations broadcast @ ~1000' to > 1600' HAAT, and there are no major obstructions (hills) since he/she is looking over Lake Ontario. As well, CITY-DT's pattern is directional to the North.

ZeroHD, I would recommend a CM4221, if there is anyway you could conveniently get it on your balcony. Some others apartment/condo residents, have placed the mast in a bucket of concrete/sand.


Yes all Toronto stations are on UHF.


hope this helps and good luck.


----------



## Don F.

Need advice again. I installed a cm 3020 for my niece a couple of years ago and she needs some improvement with uhf. She lives about 50 miles n e of Atlanta and is satisfied with most of her signals with the exception of ch 46. At this point she is still analog. I no longer use my cm 4248. Would it be worth while to remove the uhf section of the 3020, mount the 4248 a few feet higher on the mast, and connect it with the vhf portion? Thanks


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don F.* /forum/post/11426910
> 
> 
> Need advice again. I installed a cm 3020 for my niece a couple of years ago and she needs some improvement with uhf. She lives about 50 miles n e of Atlanta and is satisfied with most of her signals with the exception of ch 46. At this point she is still analog. I no longer use my cm 4248. Would it be worth while to remove the uhf section of the 3020, mount the 4248 a few feet higher on the mast, and connect it with the vhf portion? Thanks



The 4248 should be a little better.Use a CM7777 preamp dual-input and you're good to go.The antennas should be at least 3ft apart vertically.You dont have to remove the UHF section,but for windload factors you may want to.You could also reposition the 3020 for balance by drilling new holes for the ubolt clamp,plus it will look better


----------



## Don F.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/11427245
> 
> 
> The 4248 should be a little better.Use a CM7777 preamp dual-input and you're good to go.The antennas should be at least 3ft apart vertically.You dont have to remove the UHF section,but for windload factors you may want to.You could also reposition the 3020 for balance by drilling new holes for the ubolt clamp,plus it will look better



Should the current uhf section remain in the system? I have read where combined antennas should be the same make up.


----------



## Mloot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don F.* /forum/post/11428531
> 
> 
> Should the current uhf section remain in the system? I have read where combined antennas should be the same make up.



Yes, that's fine. The CM7777 has two inputs, one for VHF and one for UHF. Hook up the 4248 to the UHF input and hook up the 3020 to the VHF input. The 7777 has band separators so that when the 3020 is hooked up to the VHF input, it amplifies the VHF portion that the antenna is picking up and dampens its UHF frequencies. Works like a charm.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don F.* /forum/post/11428531
> 
> 
> Should the current uhf section remain in the system? I have read where combined antennas should be the same make up.



I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, but separate uhf and vhf antennas will ALWAYS be better than a combo. This makes front end filtering possible (uhf/vhf filter, low/hi filter, FM trap whichever applicable) which cleans up the signal before amplification. It also obviously allows for an antenna to be designed for the specific band to be received. It makes no difference as far as performance to leave the uhf section (on a combo antenna used for vhf) as long as you are properly filtered.


MaxHD was referring to minimizing wind load and aesthetics which certainly can be significant but not from the standpoint of performance..


Identical antennas are necessary if combining on the same frequency, i.e. if combining two uhf antennas for increased gain and narrower bandwidth.


----------



## Don F.




cpcat said:


> I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, but separate uhf and vhf antennas will ALWAYS be better than a combo. This makes front end filtering possible (uhf/vhf filter, low/hi filter, FM trap whichever applicable) which cleans up the signal before amplification. It also obviously allows for an antenna to be designed for the specific band to be received. It makes no difference as far as performance to leave the uhf section (on a combo antenna used for vhf) as long as you are properly filtered.
> 
> 
> Question is, in order to improve uhf reception, would it be worth while to remove the uhf section of a cm 3020 and replace it with a cm 4248 located a few feet higher on the mast, and wired to the remaining vhf section of the 3020? Funds may not be available for pre-amp. Thanks


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don F.* /forum/post/11441195
> 
> 
> Question is, in order to improve uhf reception, would it be worth while to remove the uhf section of a cm 3020 and replace it with a cm 4248 located a few feet higher on the mast, and wired to the remaining vhf section of the 3020? Funds may not be available for pre-amp. Thanks



Sure you could do this. You'd need to combine the two with a uhf/vhf combiner. However, if your signals are weak a preamp may be mandatory (especially for uhf which will attenuate more quickly along the cable run).


Assuming you are 40+ miles out from the majority of your stations, your best first step may be simply trying the 3020 with a good preamp such as the CM 7777. The CM7777 is configurable for either separate vhf/uhf or combined input.


----------



## Don F.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/11442177
> 
> 
> Sure you could do this. You'd need to combine the two with a uhf/vhf combiner. However, if your signals are weak a preamp may be mandatory (especially for uhf which will attenuate more quickly along the cable run).
> 
> 
> Assuming you are 40+ miles out from the majority of your stations, your best first step may be simply trying the 3020 with a good preamp such as the CM 7777. The CM7777 is configurable for either separate vhf/uhf or combined input.




Thanks guys for all the info. Sounds like the preamp is the most likely solution. Thanks again for the help.


----------



## Larrydalooza

35 miles from antennas in Chicago. Just made my $2.00 antenna out of solid copper #14 wire... 4 bowties ... I tuned 23 HD channels and 17 Analog just by leaning it against a wall. No reflector or anything, just the thing the guy on YouTube made.


Lar.


----------



## Larrydalooza

35 miles from antennas in Chicago. Just made my $2.00 antenna out of solid copper #14 wire... 4 bowties ... I tuned 23 HD channels and 17 Analog just by leaning it against a wall. No reflector or anything, just the thing the guy on YouTube made.


Lar.


----------



## lemmalone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mamaduce* /forum/post/11336122
> 
> 
> We tried the pre-amp and lost some of the locals we had (Winegard 8700). Directv has the ota antenna running through a splitter to 2 receivers. Today we are going to try to run it straight to the tv and see if we get the same results.



Another option would be to try a 4 or 8bay bowtie, e.g., db4 or Channel Master 4221, or the db8 or Channel Master 4228. You can experiment inexpensively by making some from the thread below. The Antennas Direct 91xg might provide a solution, at least for the distant stations. Also, several people have written alot about receptions similar to yours. You might look for posts by Rick0725 in particular, who has posted about the 4228 and the 91xg.


http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index...opic=9613&st=0


----------



## oraphus

Quick question...

on my set when i watch over the air HD material the sound is not synked with the picture. Like when you see peoples lips moving before the sound comes out.

AS far as i understand this is related to my HD signal.

I only see this with HD material, reg cable looks fine.

Is there anything i can do to sync the picture with the sound?


I notice that when i go in to menu and chancge to Antenna Vs Cable signal setting and then switch it back to cable the sound and the picture gets synked up, but then over time in the next 15-30 min they will again go out of sync.


----------



## videobruce

What TV?

What audio receiver/amp?

Internal or external speakers?


Is the audio ahead or behind the video?


----------



## oraphus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/11460126
> 
> 
> What TV?
> 
> What audio receiver/amp?
> 
> Internal or external speakers?
> 
> 
> Is the audio ahead or behind the video?



TV- Vizio VP42HDTV

TV internal speakers

I believe the sound comes after the lip movement, so ahead... will have to check again.


----------



## Postmoderndesign

Posted on a local reception thread:

Has anyone tried the Kowatec antenna yet? There was a pretty good review in HT Mag. I think this could potentially solve the multidirectional issues I am having. Here is the site if want more information. http://www.kowatec.com/ 


I am also wondering about the effectiveness of this antenna. I contacted the company and got this reply:


"Thank you for your interest in our Antenna. The CS-102 is available only through Kowatec Corporation.


The price is $45. We accept Visa and Mastercard. You can either call me or I can call you to get your payment information. We have the item in stock and we can ship it to you right away.


Thank you once again for your inquiry.


Don't delay....Go Digital Today!



Best Regards,


[PERSONAL INFORMATION REMOVED BY REQUEST -Doc]


I don't need to be the first canary down this mineshaft because I am using two silver sensors and a roof antenna all on a combiner and getting all my local over the air stations. But if others find this antenna to get good reception I would give it a try.


----------



## Neil L

The Kowatec looks like it might be a double bow-tie inside a fancy case. If that is true, then we have a $10 antenna at best, selling for $40. I just don't see anything at all special about this one. FWIW.


----------



## fluffysheap

I'm trying to get OTA HD reception. My zip code is 98040. I'm using the receiver built into my Mitsubishi 65732.


Right now I have a generic amplified loop antenna that I bought at Fry's. It's not bad, but sometimes I get dropouts on NBC, and Fox can get a little difficult to tune in from time to time. With football and the new fall TV season coming up, I'm looking for a little better reception.


I'm considering the Winegard SS-3000, the Silver Sensor and the AntennasDirect.com DB2. Seems to me the Silver Sensor is compact and looks nice, but is the least powerful; the DB2 is the best but I have to build my own stand (both pros and cons to that I guess) and the SS-3000 looks good but nobody talks about it. I'm in an apartment, so I'm stuck with only indoor antennas.


I can't seem to find the Silver Sensor anywhere locally (Seattle area) or I'd just go get one and try it out.


Will I need an amplifier? My current antenna has one built in but most of the amplifiers out there cost more than I paid for my whole antenna, so I must be missing something.


----------



## lemmalone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fluffysheap* /forum/post/11476271
> 
> 
> the DB2 is the best but I have to build my own stand
> 
> I can't seem to find the Silver Sensor anywhere locally (Seattle area) or I'd just go get one and try it out.
> 
> 
> Will I need an amplifier? My current antenna has one built in but most of the amplifiers out there cost more than I paid for my whole antenna, so I must be missing something.



You could probably hang a db2 on the wall or in front of a window, and some people have success putting the antenna on the floor out of sight. You might also think about the Channel Master 4220, also a 2bay bowtie and much less expensive. Or you could make one, something that several of us have mentioned in various posts, which you might want to do if you have to build a stand for it anyway.


----------



## jnardone

Hi:

My antenna was damaged in storm and I replaced two parts that were obviously broken (the pre-amp & transformer - the piece on the antenna, not the voltage transformer) but I am still getting no signal to my HD box. Can I use a voltmeter to trace the signal from the antenna connector through the pre-amp to see if I have a broken cable or bad connection? What type of signal should I be looking for?

Thanks,

Joseph


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fluffysheap* /forum/post/11476271
> 
> 
> I'm trying to get OTA HD reception. My zip code is 98040. I'm using the receiver built into my Mitsubishi 65732.
> 
> 
> Right now I have a generic amplified loop antenna that I bought at Fry's. It's not bad, but sometimes I get dropouts on NBC, and Fox can get a little difficult to tune in from time to time.



The Silver Sensor is somewhat directional and you have stations in different directions. You need to think along the lines of a antenna that can get stations spread around in azimuth. The antennaweb results for your zip code for digital stations are:


* yellow - uhf KMYQ-DT 22.1 MNT SEATTLE WA 295° 5.0 25

* yellow - uhf KSTW-DT 11.1 CW TACOMA WA 295° 5.0 36

* yellow - uhf KONG-DT 16.1 IND EVERETT WA 291° 7.3 31

* yellow - uhf KTBW-DT 14.1 TBN TACOMA WA 249° 26.4 14

* yellow - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 291° 7.3 48

* yellow - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 290° 7.4 38

* yellow - uhf KBTC-DT 28.1 PBS TACOMA WA 196° 23.9 27

* yellow - uhf KCPQ-DT 13.1 FOX TACOMA WA 250° 27.0 18

* yellow - uhf KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS SEATTLE WA 295° 5.1 41

* yellow - uhf KWOG-DT 51.1 IND BELLEVUE WA 91° 12.9 50

* yellow - uhf KWDK-DT 42.1 DAY TACOMA WA 91° 12.8 42

* yellow - uhf KWPX-DT 33.1 ION BELLEVUE WA 91° 12.8 32

* violet - uhf KHCV-DT 44.1 SAH SEATTLE WA 91° 12.8 44


The last number on each line is the actual broadcast channel. All of your digital stations are currently on UHF. However, this will change in February 2009 when 3 of your locals - KCTS-DT 9, KSTW-DT 11, KCPQ-DT 13 - will switch their digital channel to their current analog upper VHF channel.


KBTC-DT Fox 13 is 27 miles so it is no surprise that you have problems getting it with an indoor antenna. If you can mount an antenna in the window or out on a balcony, I suggest you consider the Channel Master 4220 2 bay (~$20 plus shipping on-line) or maybe the CM 4221 4 Bay bowtie. Aim the antenna in the direction of the Fox station but shift it around to find a spot which gets you all the important stations. The better antenna may not need a pre-amp or amp at all.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Those discontinued Radio Shack model 1880 Indoor Antennas are hard to find. But I found one!


----------



## rgharrin

How to protect preamp?

In the last 3 weeks 2 Channel Master 7777 preamps have burned out.

Both during storms. 1st storm knocked out neighborhood elect. The 2nd storm had little lightning. The antenna is not on the house but on a steel pole 100 feet from house. The pole is driven into the ground. RG6 runs along the ground to the house. The power supply end of the the preamp is plugged into a surge strip. Other things plugged into the strip, including computer were not affected.

Any ideas?


----------



## greywolf

That steel pole acts like a grounding rod. It needs to be connected to the main house ground with a 6ga copper wire to retain single point grounding (electrically), meet building codes and prevent damage from nearby lightning strikes. See http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm


----------



## fluffysheap

I don't really care about any of those stations to the east. I only care about the five networks (including CBS which for some reason is not on that list) which are all in more or less the same direction (at least, they're all to the west), so somewhat directional reception seems ok.


I can, theoretically, put an antenna on my patio under the "exclusive access" rule, but this will annoy my landlord, and I'd rather just keep it inside if I can.


Edit:

I found a Silver Sensor at Fry's, and it's better than the generic loop, but it's not good enough. All my other stations come in at 90% strength now and never have any dropouts, but I still can't get Fox unless I put it outside. Interestingly, when I do that, I get the best reception by pointing the antenna almost directly opposite where the station is - I guess I have a reflection that is louder than the actual signal! Which is plausible, actually, since I have a big hill between me and the station, and there's a pretty tall building behind me.


So, anyway, I guess next up is to try a 2 bay bowtie, and if I have to put it outside, well, tough. Sure would be nice if I could put it behind the sofa, though










I'm a little concerned about stations, especially Fox, moving to VHF. Do I have, basically, any hope of receiving this station after the switchover? It looks like rabbit ears will be about 8 dB worse than my current, already marginal antenna, so unless the transmitter power increases significantly, it seems like that station might become excessively difficult. And there doesn't seem to be much in the way of well-regarded indoor-capable VHF antennas. Maybe the Channel Master Smartenna? I don't really have a problem with using different antennas for VHF and UHF if necessary, I have two antenna connectors on my TV (both coax).


Thanks for your help


----------



## rgharrin

Greywolf,


Thanks for the information.

Run a copper wire from pole to house ground, in my case 150 ft.

Or does it take just a short copper wire connection from 75 ohm cable, where it

enters the house, to the common ground like the cable installers use?

The outside (as opposed to the copper wire) of the cable itself is a grounding connection?


----------



## videobruce

fluffysheap; Using this as a reference point;
http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/mapb...r%20Island )


I got this for your stations;
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/defaul...=Show+Stations 


You are on top of most of them so any antenna will work anywhere (assuming this is where you are). Since they are so close you can not use any type of amo or pre-amp because of overload.

Seven are NW and four are SSE of you.


----------



## greywolf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rgharrin* /forum/post/11491058
> 
> 
> Greywolf,
> 
> 
> Thanks for the information.
> 
> Run a copper wire from pole to house ground, in my case 150 ft.
> 
> Or does it take just a short copper wire connection from 75 ohm cable, where it
> 
> enters the house, to the common ground like the cable installers use?
> 
> The outside (as opposed to the copper wire) of the cable itself is a grounding connection?



Since the pole is in the ground, it needs to be treated like a secondary grounding rod. That means a 6 gauge copper wire from the pole to the house ground is required. The cables also need to be grounded near where they enter the house as you have stated. Both types of ground connections are required. One doesn't replace the other.

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarch...s~20020303.htm 

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarch...s~20020701.htm 

http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Installation/Grounding.htm 


AVSforum member Signal posted the following helpful sites. Dish and antenna masts have the same grounding requirements.



National Electrical Code - Search for "dish" http://forums.nfpa.org:8081/necfaq/necsrch.htm 


The information there also applies to antenna grounding. In the 2002 code update, if a water pipe is used, it must be all metal and connected to the electrical panel within 5ft of where the pipe enters the building. The connection to the pipe from the lightning arrestor/ground block and from the antenna/dish mast must also be within 5ft of the pipe's entry.



Preventing Damage Due to Ground Potential Difference
http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm


----------



## fluffysheap

Videobruce: That 2150 site is nice! I like the extra detail about the transmitters.


You're right, I have very good reception on everything... except KCPQ Fox, which is 27 miles away, on the other side of Puget Sound, and apparently not very high powered. And on top of that, I'm in an apartment building behind a hill.


Why they put their transmitter there I can't say, but I have to live with it. And I can get it if I put my Silver Sensor on the patio. So, if my indoor antenna can get it outdoors, maybe an outdoor antenna can get it indoors! Failing that... I'll just put it on the patio.


----------



## revelstone77

Please forgive my ignorance. I am new to all this. Just got my first HD and don't want to pay the subscription mongers for service. I don't watch that much TV. Threw a small rabbit ear type i had laying around and managed to pick up a few stations. Very impressive. Went to antennaweb and determined i need a red antenna. I live in South Florida and am not aware of any electronics superstore like Fry's around here. Where the heck can I get an appropriate antenna. It obviously needs to be an outside antenna and as high as possible. Since I live a hurricane zone i would even like to have a rectractable mast if they exist. Any help anyone can provide will be greatly appreciated.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *revelstone77* /forum/post/11493525
> 
> 
> Please forgive my ignorance. I am new to all this. Just got my first HD and don't want to pay the subscription mongers for service. I don't watch that much TV. Threw a small rabbit ear type i had laying around and managed to pick up a few stations. Very impressive. Went to antennaweb and determined i need a red antenna. I live in South Florida and am not aware of any electronics superstore like Fry's around here. Where the heck can I get an appropriate antenna. It obviously needs to be an outside antenna and as high as possible. Since I live a hurricane zone i would even like to have a rectractable mast if they exist. Any help anyone can provide will be greatly appreciated.



As always, please provide your zip code so we can look up your stations, the channels they are on and their distance & direction from your approximate location. If you have an attic and are not that far away, putting the antenna in attic can work provided there are no radiant barriers or construction material that blocks VHF & UHF signals.


----------



## ucladave

I too just recently bought an HDTV and am sick of paying directv for what should be free programming. I watch exclusively OTA broadcasts but would be watching more than just the primetime HDTV broadcasts.


I am in zip 90064. I am the top floor of a 4 story condo building and have no obstructions. However, there is a small general avaiation airport across the street. Without that airport, antennaweb says I need yellow for most stations, but with it it gives me red. I am not really sure it would affect anything but better safe than sorry I guess.


I currently have directv set up on the roof above my unit, with three 75 ohm cables coming down into the unit - a double cable for the tivo and a single for the bedroom. Ideally I would like to put an antenna (not too big!) on the roof and throw away the dish, connect two cables via a splitter to service both the bedroom and main room.


Questions:


1) will the splitter ruin the signal strength? If so I just wont use the bedroom one...


2) All the HDTV broadcasts are UHF, but during the daytime I would need VHF I think to receive regular programming (does this sound right, or do the digital stations broadcast regular def shows as well?)


3) I was looking at the terk HDTVs antenna because it is relatively small, and receives VHF as well as UHF stations. Is this a good bet, or can you guys recommend something better for my situation?


----------



## revelstone77

Sorry, the zip is 33418 but i am extreme northern end of that zip. i have a metal roof so i don't think an attic antenna will be of much use. seems like most of the stations are 192 -193 degrees. thx for the quick response. over in the reception forum i noticed a lot of people talking about measuring signal strength. How are they doing that?


----------



## fluffysheap

ucladave:

1) Yes, but you can get amplified splitters that will prevent it from being a problem.

2) If a channel has both analog and digital, they both broadcast all the time (broadcasting standard def programs via digital channel is no problem). For now, most stations are on UHF for their digital, and whatever their normal channel is for their analog. But in 2/2009, when analog goes away, many stations will move their digital back to VHF. So at that point you may need both.

3) You can start with a cheap $10 indoor loop/rabbit ears antenna and see how it does. Antennaweb is pretty conservative and you may find that a basic antenna is enough for you - if not you will have to look at stronger stuff. Most of Terk's antennas are not real good, an exception being the one based on the ubiquitous Silver Sensor.


----------



## ucladave

Thanks for the help there. Can you recommend an amplified splitter?


Also, I plugged in a set of rabbit ears and get quite a lot of stations. The digital UHF ones come in nicely, but the VHF ones come in pretty crappy I must admit. You can see picture but there is snow.


I would really like to go rooftop since the cables are already there and the antenna will be out of the way. If terk sucks, maybe you can recommend one thats decent but also small?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fluffysheap* /forum/post/11495475
> 
> 
> ucladave:
> 
> 1) Yes, but you can get amplified splitters that will prevent it from being a problem.
> 
> 2) If a channel has both analog and digital, they both broadcast all the time (broadcasting standard def programs via digital channel is no problem). For now, most stations are on UHF for their digital, and whatever their normal channel is for their analog. But in 2/2009, when analog goes away, many stations will move their digital back to VHF. So at that point you may need both.
> 
> 3) You can start with a cheap $10 indoor loop/rabbit ears antenna and see how it does. Antennaweb is pretty conservative and you may find that a basic antenna is enough for you - if not you will have to look at stronger stuff. Most of Terk's antennas are not real good, an exception being the one based on the ubiquitous Silver Sensor.


----------



## fluffysheap

afiggatt and videobruce:

I bought a DB-8 that I found on craigslist and stuck it in a window I don't usually look out of, where it fits perfectly. Reception problems solved (with extreme prejudice). And most people would say the DB-8 is too big to be used as an indoor antenna!










ucladave:

I looked you up on that nice 2150.com site:
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/defaul...=Show+Stations 


So, you are getting nothing but static on channel Z, eh?










Looking at antennaweb, it seems like basically everything is in the same direction, so a highly directional antenna is probably what you want. But they are also relatively far away at 24 miles. I think, you'll probably do OK with most decent size Yagi-style antennas. http://www.antennasdirect.com/V10_vhf_antenna.html , just as a first guess.


I'm no expert, but:

The Channel Master CM-3043 amplifier ( http://www.pctinternational.com/chan...mplifiers.html ) seems like it is appropriate for your application. If you go with an outdoor antenna, on the other hand, you might want a mast mounted amplifier like the CM-7777, which will probably be strong enough that you don't need or want another amplifier in the splitter.


It seems likely (to me) that for now, you should be able to get all your channels on UHF, unless there is some particular one you want that is still VHF only and does not have a digital copy in UHF. Generally, VHF channels 2-6 require a different antenna style than 7-13 although lots of VHF antennas combine both styles into one unit. You might even be able to get 7-13 with your UHF antenna, if they are strong enough. However, low VHF is not going to be used much in the future. So you may not need that at all. Generally, the really long antennas are for upper VHF, and the really wide ones are for lower VHF.


The other thing to take into consideration is omnidirectional vs. directional. You can still use a directional antenna if you get a rotator to point it in the right place for your channels, I'd consider that inconvenient, but less so than futzing around with rabbit ears!


Really, though, you don't want my recommendations because I am pretty new at this myself. I don't know model numbers backward and forward like some people.


----------



## rgharrin

Greywolf,

Thanks for all the information!!


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> I like the extra detail about the transmitters.



That's what my 'sig' is about. fluffysheap; Too bad you aren't closer to Canada. One great thing about where I live, I am, and Canadian stations give you more choices and since they now have a cut off date (2011) they should be seeing more digfital stations in the next couple of years.

Your Fox station will require a outdoor antenna. It shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## videobruce

revelstone77; If this is you;
http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/maps...m_Beach_Garde_ 


Here are your stations;
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/defaul...=Show+Stations 


Looks as a bi-directional antenna would work since everything is either north or south of your location.

Are you trying for the Miami stations at 60 miles? You will have a problem with 49 & 59 being less than 8 miles away. They are to the north, so aiming south (no rotor) should drop their signal. Something with a good F/B (front to back) ratio would be in order

If not then try here;
http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/UHF.htm 

SL-4BT 4-bay bi-directional (figure 8) antenna.


> Quote:
> over in the reception forum i noticed a lot of people talking about measuring signal strength. How are they doing that?



By using what their TV reports. Problem is, that usually isn't a signal _strength_ "meter", but a BER (bit error rate) indicator, which is better than nothing, but it isn't a level indicator. Unless you have a SLM (signal level meter) there isn't any way of knowing.

The easiest way is to use a analog station from the same location (as close as possible) and aim the antenna there looking for the 'best' image on the screen.


BTW, welcome to the forums.


----------



## ucladave

Ok a new update that may shed some light on things for people. I found a pair of old rabbit ears and stuck them behind the TV set. I get every single UHF DTV channel in the area with full signal strength!


At this point I would love to stick something small and inexpensive on the rooftop just because the cables are already strung down into the unit AND into the back bedroom. The bedroom has a few reinforced walls blocking its "view" of the broadcast antennas, so I would like use just the one main antenna and split it to both TV's. Can you split rabbit ears?


Also, does anyone know if the los angeles stations will be changing back to VHF in 2009?


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *revelstone77* /forum/post/11495260
> 
> 
> Sorry, the zip is 33418 but i am extreme northern end of that zip. i have a metal roof so i don't think an attic antenna will be of much use. seems like most of the stations are 192 -193 degrees. thx for the quick response.



Yes, a metal roof rules out the attic. The antennaweb results for your zip code, adding 150' to antenna height under options to get a more complete list, show the following digital stations:


* yellow - uhf WPXP-DT 67.1 ION LAKE WORTH FL 199° 18.1 36

* yellow - vhf WPEC-DT 12.1 CBS WEST PALM BEACH FL 199° 18.1 13

* yellow - uhf WFGC-DT 49 CTN PALM BEACH FL FCC Ext 223° 6.8 49

* yellow - uhf WFLX-DT 29.1 FOX WEST PALM BEACH FL 205° 19.4 28

* yellow - uhf WPTV-DT 5.1 NBC WEST PALM BEACH FL 200° 18.1 55

* yellow - uhf WHDT-DT 59.1 IND STUART FL 161° 8.8 59

* yellow - uhf WXEL-DT 42.1 PBS WEST PALM BEACH FL 205° 19.4 27

* yellow - uhf WPBF-DT 25.1 ABC WEST PALM BEACH FL 326° 24.9 16

* yellow - uhf WTCE-DT 38.1 TBN FORT PIERCE FL 354° 12.9 38

* yellow - uhf WTVX-DT 34.1 CW FORT PIERCE FL 327° 24.7 50

* violet - uhf WAMI-DT 69.1 TFA HOLLYWOOD FL 189° 59.3 47

* violet - uhf WSCV-DT 51.1 TEL FORT LAUDERDALE FL 189° 59.3 52


The last number on each line is the actual current digital broadcast channel. All of the stations are on UHF, except for WPEC-DT CBS 12 on VHF 13. A check of the FCC data, shows that after the analog shutdown in February, 2009, WPTV-DT NBC 5 will be switching from UHF 55 to VHF 12. The rest stay on UHF.


You have stations in different directions and need to cover UHF and the upper end of upper VHF, channels 12 & 13. The Channel Master 4221 4 Bay bowtie is a good antenna for your location. It has decent gain for VHF 11 to 13. You should be able to find a aim that picks up the major network stations without having to constantly rotate it. With a roof mount, I would recommend you get a rotator so you don't have to climb up and down to tweak the aim. For starters, I would aim the CM 4221 in the direction of the more distant WPBF-DT ABC 25 station and try to get the closer stations off in the sidelobes.


See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html and http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4221.html .


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ucladave* /forum/post/11499352
> 
> 
> Ok a new update that may shed some light on things for people. I found a pair of old rabbit ears and stuck them behind the TV set. I get every single UHF DTV channel in the area with full signal strength!
> 
> 
> At this point I would love to stick something small and inexpensive on the rooftop just because the cables are already strung down into the unit AND into the back bedroom. The bedroom has a few reinforced walls blocking its "view" of the broadcast antennas, so I would like use just the one main antenna and split it to both TV's. Can you split rabbit ears?
> 
> 
> Also, does anyone know if the los angeles stations will be changing back to VHF in 2009?



Yes, the upper VHF analog stations in LA will be switching their digital channels to their upper VHF channel in February, 2009 - channels 7, 9, 11, 13. Your zip code places you around 25 miles from the monster antenna farm on Mt. Wilson. Many people in the LA area pick up the digital stations with indoor or small antennas at long range because of the line of sight to the antenna farm at 6000' above sea level.


Simple rabbit ears may do the trick for the upper VHF stations in 2009. I assume your old "rabbit ear" antenna has a 8" loop UHF antenna which is what is picking up the digital stations, not the rabbit ears which are for VHF.

You can combine a VHF and a UHF antenna using a $10 or so combiner. One option is to put up a Channel Master 4220 2 bay bowtie (around $20 on-line, Fry's may carry it) which may have enough gain to get the upper VHF digital stations in 2009. If not, then a short dipole antenna may do the trick for upper VHF. Just leave room on the outdoor mounting mast for a small upper VHF antenna.


Yes, you can split the cable run from the antenna. If you have a long cable run or have to split it too many times, then you may have to add a pre-amp or distribution amp to boost the signal strength. Use RG-6 cable, not RG-59 for the co-axial cable run to the antenna.


----------



## revelstone77

Many thanks to Afiggatt and Videobruce! I am placing the order for the antenna tonight. I am going with a telescoping mast and rotator. Should I add an amplifier or should i wait to see what i get? I want to put a splitter in the attic so I can make a run into the bedroom also.


----------



## scoobiesnackarff

I just purchased my first HDTV and like many here I would prefer to not pay my subscriber for the HDTV stations. My zip code is 99224 and its a townhome so upstairs and downstairs however there is no balcony nor do I have roof access. My TV is a Philips 1080P 47in ambi light, don't know if that would help figure out what I need but felt I would include it just in case. Any recommendations would be much appreciated.


Alan


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *revelstone77* /forum/post/11510872
> 
> 
> Many thanks to Afiggatt and Videobruce! I am placing the order for the antenna tonight. I am going with a telescoping mast and rotator. Should I add an amplifier or should i wait to see what i get? I want to put a splitter in the attic so I can make a run into the bedroom also.



You are only 18 to 25 miles from the stations. You should not need a pre-amp or distribution amp unless you have a long cable run or split it multiple times. See if you can get all the stations without a pre-amp first. Oh, also be sure to use RG-6 cable for the co-axial cable., not RG-59, and to ground the antenna mast as well as use a grounding block on the co-axial cable.


----------



## videobruce

revelstone77; I wouldn't even consider a preamp with those two stations less than 8 miles away (even if they are off the back side of the antenna). A amp maybe (indoors out of the weather where you can get at it might be a option, ONLY if it had high input capibility (few do).


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scoobiesnackarff* /forum/post/11513030
> 
> 
> I just purchased my first HDTV and like many here I would prefer to not pay my subscriber for the HDTV stations. My zip code is 99224 and its a townhome so upstairs and downstairs however there is no balcony nor do I have roof access. My TV is a Philips 1080P 47in ambi light, don't know if that would help figure out what I need but felt I would include it just in case. Any recommendations would be much appreciated.



At about 12 miles from the transmitters your prospects appear to be very good, especially if you have any views to the East. At first, you may want to try the most basic rabbit-ear loop combo (un-amplified) as that may be sufficient.


If you do not have a clear view to the East and if the results of the basic antenna are not up to speed, there are plenty of others than can be tried (such as the Silver Sensor).


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scoobiesnackarff* /forum/post/11513030
> 
> 
> I just purchased my first HDTV and like many here I would prefer to not pay my subscriber for the HDTV stations. My zip code is 99224 and its a townhome so upstairs and downstairs however there is no balcony nor do I have roof access. My TV is a Philips 1080P 47in ambi light, don't know if that would help figure out what I need but felt I would include it just in case.



You are around 9 miles from most of the digital broadcast stations in Spokane. The antennaweb results for your zip with 200' added to antenna height under options to get a more complete list (edited for just Spokane stations):


* yellow - vhf KXLY-DT 4.1 ABC SPOKANE WA 24° 26.5 13

* yellow - vhf KSPS-DT 7.1 PBS SPOKANE WA 97° 9.6 8

* yellow - uhf KREM-DT 2.1 CBS SPOKANE WA 89° 9.2 20

* yellow - uhf KSKN-DT 22.1 CW SPOKANE WA 89° 9.2 36

* yellow - uhf KHQ-DT 6.1 NBC SPOKANE WA 95° 9.6 15

* yellow - uhf KGPX-DT 34 ION SPOKANE WA 01-08 87° 9.1 34


KSPS-DT PBS 7 is on upper VHF 8, KXLY-DT ABC 4 is on VHF 13, the rest are on UHF. Antennaweb does not show a local Fox station for either analog or digital, although there is a KAYU-DT Fox 28 on UHF 30: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KAYU-TV . The FCC database shows KAYU-DT has a licensed power of 335 kW on UHF 30, so you should be able to get it. There may be an error in the antennaweb database for KAYU.


You need upper VHF and UHF coverage. The KXLY-DT ABC station at 26 miles may be the challenge. For starters, try a cheap VHF rabbit ear and UHF loop table top antenna. It that doesn't work, then maybe an amplified indoor antenna, but stay away from the small UHF only models or models with silly amp numbers like 45 or more dB. Another option is a Channel Master 4220 2 bay bowtie (~ $21 plus shipping online) upstairs in a window or tucked up in a eave somewhere aimed at 30° to 50° NE.


Remember, when you hook up the antenna, you need to do a digital channel scan for it to build a map of the local stations. You will likely have to do multiple scans while tweaking the aim to get all the stations.


----------



## revelstone77

Once again, my thanks to Afiggatt and Videobruce. I'll be sure to post the outcome after i get everything in place.


----------



## TheKaz

Hey all,


Completely new to the HDTV over-the-air thing. I just picked up a 42 inch Sharp HDTV and currently use DirecTV. Unfortunately, DirecTV does not offer the local channels in my area in HD so I think my only option at this point is to go the antenna route. I KNOW local stations in my area broadcast in HD because I was able to pick up NBC in HDTV with a pair of rabbit ears (my signal strength topped out at 60/100).


This was the antenna I tried after buying it for 8 bucks at Walmart:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HKGK8Y/ 


My problem is that I am specifically looking for CBS and FOX in HDTV more-so than NBC since the NFL season starts this Sunday. I have confirmed that the stations in my area for those networks DO broadcast in HD. My zip code is 29073.


I am hoping that I can get these channels in my two story home (with the HDTV on the bottom floor) with an indoor antenna that can sit somewhere near the HDTV I have.


Is there a specific make/model of indoor antenna anyone can recommend that can accomplish this or am I out of luck? According to antennaweb.org, I see that I am 30 miles from most towers (I'm not sure how this affects my chances, however).


Thanks for all the help!


----------



## DECdaze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TheKaz* /forum/post/11527787
> 
> 
> ... I KNOW local stations in my area broadcast in HD because I was able to pick up NBC in HDTV with a pair of rabbit ears (my signal strength topped out at 60/100)...



Typically any antenna that can pick up UHF will work well. However, you note:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TheKaz* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...I am hoping that I can get these channels in my two story home (with the HDTV on the bottom floor) with an indoor antenna that can sit somewhere near the HDTV I have.



You may need an amplified antenna to boost the signal. You may also need a directional antenna to cut out some reflection. Finally, you may want to consider putting an antenna into your attic to try to reduce interference from other houses, trees and hills. Though a hassle, it may be the best bet to get a better signal.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TheKaz* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ...Is there a specific make/model of indoor antenna anyone can recommend that can accomplish this or am I out of luck? According to antennaweb.org, I see that I am 30 miles from most towers (I'm not sure how this affects my chances, however).



I use a Terk HDTVa. I hear the Phillips Silver Sensor does a good job.


Here's an article from a local TV station, which has pioneered HDTV OTA:

http://www.wral.com/wral-tv/story/1180264/ 


Hope that helps.


----------



## ceta123

Hi,


Try the CS-102 indoor UHF antenna. It has been tested by antenna expert Pete Putman and he has rated high in his article in Home theater magazine. www.kowatec.com


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ceta123* /forum/post/11530532
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> 
> Try the CS-102 indoor UHF antenna. It has been tested by antenna expert Pete Putman and he has rated high in his article in Home theater magazine. www.kowatec.com



Okay. I give up. How does a planar design make something omni-directional ?


Uni-directional, maybe. Bi-directional, certainly. Omni-directional?


----------



## Falcon_77

Another question I have is how can an "omni-directional" antenna have gain? Isn't gain directly proportional to how directional an antenna is?


I also see the "DVB-T antenna" on the unit. I wonder which market it is designed for? I would think a UHF only antenna would be designed for the UK, but they usually call them "aerials."


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TheKaz* /forum/post/11527787
> 
> 
> I KNOW local stations in my area broadcast in HD because I was able to pick up NBC in HDTV with a pair of rabbit ears (my signal strength topped out at 60/100).
> 
> 
> This was the antenna I tried after buying it for 8 bucks at Walmart:
> 
> 
> My problem is that I am specifically looking for CBS and FOX in HDTV more-so than NBC since the NFL season starts this Sunday. I have confirmed that the stations in my area for those networks DO broadcast in HD. My zip code is 29073.
> 
> 
> I am hoping that I can get these channels in my two story home (with the HDTV on the bottom floor) with an indoor antenna that can sit somewhere near the HDTV I have.



You are 20 to 30 miles from your local broadcast towers, making an indoor antenna iffy. An indoor antenna might work if you can place it high up or on the 2nd floor, but you nay be prone to dropouts. You may have to consider putting the antenna in the attic or outside on the side of the house.


The antennaweb results for your zip code with an antenna height of 200' to get a more complete list of digital stations:


* yellow - uhf WACH-DT 57.1 FOX COLUMBIA SC 68° 29.0 48

* yellow - uhf WRLK-DT 35.1 PBS COLUMBIA SC 56° 20.9 32

* yellow - vhf WOLO-DT 25.1 ABC COLUMBIA SC 68° 29.0 8

* yellow - uhf WKTC-DT 38.1 MNT SUMTER SC 68° 29.0 39

* yellow - uhf WLTX-DT 19.1 CBS COLUMBIA SC 71° 28.5 17

* yellow - uhf WIS-DT 10.1 NBC COLUMBIA SC 68° 29.7 41

* red - uhf WAGT-DT 30.1 NBC AUGUSTA GA 231° 50.4 30

* red - uhf WRDW-DT 12.1 CBS AUGUSTA GA 232° 50.6 31

* blue - uhf WRJA-DT 28.1 PBS SUMTER SC 99° 54.2 28

* violet - uhf WJBF-DT 6.1 ABC AUGUSTA GA 231° 50.4 42


The last number on each line is the actual broadcast channel. WOLO-DT ABC 25 is on upper VHF 8, the rest are currently on UHF. WIS-DT NBC 10 will be moving in February, 2009 from UHF 41 to it's current analog channel, VHF 10. Your local CW station, WZRB CW 47, is analog only and has to wait to do a digital cut conversion to provide a digital signal ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WZRB ). The bottom line is that you need an antenna which can receive upper VHF and UHF. The Kowatec is UHF only, forget it. If you get a Silver Sensor UHF antenna, you need to get a model with VHF rabbit ears such as the Terk HDTVa.


If you insist on indoor, the Radio Shack #15-1892 "mushroom" antenna gets good marks. The Terk HDTVa might work. Another possibility is the Channel Master 4220 2 bay mounted up in the room. I suggest you buy something locally so you can return if it does not get all your locals (likely). See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html for antenna info.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/11534292
> 
> 
> Another question I have is how can an "omni-directional" antenna have gain? Isn't gain directly proportional to how directional an antenna is?



Think in terms of three dimensions instead of two. Making the antenna's reception pattern more pancake-shaped instead of spherical increases the gain, while still being omnidirectional in the horizontal plane.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/11534292
> 
> 
> Another question I have is how can an "omni-directional" antenna have gain? Isn't gain directly proportional to how directional an antenna is?
> 
> 
> I also see the "DVB-T antenna" on the unit. I wonder which market it is designed for? I would think a UHF only antenna would be designed for the UK, but they usually call them "aerials."



A true "omni-directional" antenna has 0 dBi gain (relative to isotropic).

If it's a planar antenna, then it likely has nulls in the antenna pattern

along the plane of the panel....so "0-360 degrees (azimuth)"

would have significant losses in some directions.

The Kowatec's spec sez "4.35 dB gain", which is presumably dBi...or 2.2 dB dBd (relative to a dipole).

The latter number tells us that the antenna has more directivity than a dipole in some directions....

at the expense of NULLS in other directions....


A true "omni-directional" antenna can boost the gain by narrowing the response in the

vertical direction...

but this would be contrary to Kowatec's "0-90 degrees (elevation)" spec....

it is possible the Kowatec is including the nulls towards the top and bottom of the panel....


But of course, they never specified how consistent the gain was

in those directions....so let the buyer beware....


FYI: DTV broadcast antennas vertically stack multiple elements to achieve

narrow elevation angles with high "omni-directional" gain:
http://www.dielectric.com/broadcast/...TF-batwing.pdf 

But due to it's compact height, I doubt the Kowatec uses vertically stacked elements....


BTW: DVB-T is the European standard for digital television,

which has been adopted by many countries around the world.

The U.S. developed ATSC system was only chosen by a few "close" friends....


The VHF and UHF TV bands tend to be the same around the world,

so many of the same antennas can be used worldwide.

However, the quoted channel number specs typically don't

line up due to the use of 6, 7 and 8 MHz channel spacing....


----------



## PA_MainyYak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TheKaz* /forum/post/11527787
> 
> Hey all,
> 
> 
> Completely new to the HDTV over-the-air thing. I just picked up a 42 inch Sharp HDTV and currently use DirecTV. Unfortunately, DirecTV does not offer the local channels in my area in HD so I think my only option at this point is to go the antenna route. I KNOW local stations in my area broadcast in HD because I was able to pick up NBC in HDTV with a pair of rabbit ears (my signal strength topped out at 60/100).
> 
> 
> This was the antenna I tried after buying it for 8 bucks at Walmart:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HKGK8Y/
> 
> 
> My problem is that I am specifically looking for CBS and FOX in HDTV more-so than NBC since the NFL season starts this Sunday. I have confirmed that the stations in my area for those networks DO broadcast in HD. My zip code is 29073.
> 
> 
> I am hoping that I can get these channels in my two story home (with the HDTV on the bottom floor) with an indoor antenna that can sit somewhere near the HDTV I have.
> 
> 
> Is there a specific make/model of indoor antenna anyone can recommend that can accomplish this or am I out of luck? According to antennaweb.org, I see that I am 30 miles from most towers (I'm not sure how this affects my chances, however).
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the help!



You can get a very good estimate of signal strength and coordinates by using the Signal Analysis Tool at TVFool.com/ . I checked it using your zip code and it appears an indoor antenna just might work for you. And, all the stations you are interested in appear to be in the same area northeast of your location. This tool allows you to enter your address or lat/long coords for a more precise estimate.

As for antenna recommendations, Antennas Direct is an excellent resource for your reception research.

Good luck.


----------



## gbynum




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/11534292
> 
> 
> Another question I have is how can an "omni-directional" antenna have gain? Isn't gain directly proportional to how directional an antenna is?



There are 2 considerations. First is the "reference" to which the gain is referenced. A "point source" radiates in a sphere and is used to make numbers look better (by, I think, 3dB). A vertical dipole covers half a sphere.


Directionality is the path to antenna gain; a pattern looking like a frisbee vs a half grapefruit results. Covering 18 degrees vs 180 might give 10 dB of gain ... Comment here ... most power boat antennas don't waste power up, sending all they can out ... mast antenna's on sailboats can have range reduced almost 10 times when sharply heeled with a typical power boat antenna ... and use height and a vertical dipole, usually.


----------



## Falcon_77

Ok, thank you for clarifying. It seems I have made the "Khan" mistake of not thinking in 3 dimensions.










I suppose Omni-Directional sounds better for marketing. Omni-Planar just doesn't sound as good, does it?


----------



## Tobias Ziegler

I still don't buy it. A frisbee standing on edge with pickup pattern that is omni directional in the horizontal plane? Uh Uh. If the frisbee was horizontal, maybe. But that's not what was pictured.


----------



## holl_ands

It's probably just a simple loop antenna inside the frame....

Which would resemble the bi-directional (0 dBd) response of a DIPOLE.....


If they've actually managed to obtain additional gain wrt a loop,

it's the result of NULLS in some direction(s)....

which would be contrary to their "omni-directional" claim....

But NULLS can help to reduce multipath....which is why the Silver Sensor works so well...


Don't expect any miracles....it's still a short range antenna like the

UHF loop in a set of rabbit ears....


----------



## nybbler

A full-wave loop does have some gain over a half-wave dipole... I could believe 2.2dBd. Nulls are in the plane of the antenna.


----------



## dgough

Hello to all,

I need some advice on what equipment will allow me to receive some OTA HD channels. First off my zip code is 79720 and my location is N32.2804 W101.5147. I currently have no ant. equipment so I am open to any and all suggestions (within normal monetary limits). The channels that I would really like to receive are KWAB-DT, KMLM-DT, KPBT-DT, KOSA-DT, KUPB-DT, KMID-DT, KPEJ-DT, and KWES-DT. From what I have read here I think that KWAB-DT is going to cause me all kinds of problems being so close. If I could reject KWAB-DT and receive KWES-DT instead that would be great because KWAB-DT will not show up on my DTV program guide but KWES-DT does. Antenna height would probably be ~40 feet.

Thanks in advance.

Danny


----------



## slightlysalted

Well at-least helpless at the time being. I went tvfool.com to check out where the HD channels where in my area. My zip is 47362 by the way. Though I am a little confused. I see that I will be able to pick PBS rather well. But the thing is the others that I want are in yellow. I live in the second story of a house that was converted into a apartment on the top floor where I live. So I don't see me being able to put up an outside antenna. I was reading that with yellow I would need a medium gained antenna. I'm not sure what that is. The only HD antenna I've been told about is the Zenith ZHDTV1. I have a feeling that won't work for me to get the other channels like ABC or CBS. Can anyone help me figure out how I might be able to get those channels over the air, even though I am in an apartment. Thanks for any help. Again my zip code is 47362, if that can help any.


----------



## RedStickHam




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DECdaze* /forum/post/11528672
> 
> 
> Typically any antenna that can pick up UHF will work well. However, you note:
> 
> 
> 
> You may need an amplified antenna to boost the signal. You may also need a directional antenna to cut out some reflection. Finally, you may want to consider putting an antenna into your attic to try to reduce interference from other houses, trees and hills. Though a hassle, it may be the best bet to get a better signal.
> 
> 
> 
> I use a Terk HDTVa. I hear the Phillips Silver Sensor does a good job.
> 
> 
> Here's an article from a local TV station, which has pioneered HDTV OTA:
> 
> http://www.wral.com/wral-tv/story/1180264/
> 
> 
> Hope that helps.



I just bought a Terk HDTV antenna and it works very well. It's the Terk that is a look alike for the Silver Sensor. I can pick up all of the local channels in my area(Baton Rouge, LA), including some I couldn't pick up on rabbit ears. I paid $70.00 for it, but I think it was worth it. The antenna is just sitting on to of a bookcase, pointed west towards downtown. They sell the antenna at Best Buy, give is a try!


RedStickHam


----------



## lamartina

Is the ANTENNA CRAFT MXU59 a good choice? or are the CM4228 and 91XG better choices?, in other words, what are the differences?


----------



## ChocoLab

Just came across this and thought I would point it out...


Antennacraft appears to have come out with a redesigned 4-bay and a brand new 8-bay. It will be interesting to see how people like them once they try one. Probably not much different than the Winegard or CM bowties, but as we know there will be some differences.

http://www.antennacraft.net/4%20&%208%20Bay.htm


----------



## new2hdtv07

HELP!

When I moved into my house, the previous owner left their attic antenna. I'm a newbie when it comes to understanding the ins and outs of getting the best antenna reception.


The antenna that is there is somewhat similar style to :
http://www.pctinternational.com/chan...0612/3018.html 

Its a uhf/vhf combo antenna. All the VHF elements (the long ones right?) are connected to what looks like an aluminum wire. All of the elements are insulated from the main trunk with some plastic. One of these element pairs inside the uhf "V" has the 300 to 75ohm transformer, but again what appears to be isolated from the uhf elements. Should I be seeing a point to connect to the UHF as well as VHF then use a combiner? Or does the V essentially reflect the UHF bandwidth onto the single VHF element pair inside the "V". I didn't see any other way the "V" would do anything for my signal.


Question 1: Can someone set me straight on this on whether I should get a combiner for my existing antenna or not?


And on a side note a few other questions to sneak in:


Question 2: The previous owner had the antenna sitting on wood in the rafters, if the element is touching even wood, would that impact the signal integrity? Do I need to install a mast in my attic for the antenna?


Question 3: I have a lot of devices in my house to hook up to the antenna. I have a home theater PC that records shows OTA, so that is up to 5 connections right there (3 analog, now 2 digital). I have 2 hdtvs and 2 analog TVs, and a couple AV amps that have a coax input for FM. All together that makes for about 10 devices. My antenna is approximately 50 feet from my distribution center. What would be the recommended distribution solution? Pre-amp and bunch of passive splitters? Is any old splitter addiquit, or do you have product recomendations? Right now I don't have a pre-amp, just a powered 4-way distribution amp that I split as needed with passive splitters.


Question 4: Are there any specific grounding schemes to use or ways to avoid ground interference or ground loops?


Thanks in advance for any help you can offer in making my signal quality the best it can be.

Justin


----------



## nybbler

The VHF part of the antenna is called a "Log periodic" antenna. This type of antenna has its elements connected together. The UHF part of antenna is a combination Yagi/Corner Reflector. In that sort of the antenna, the elements are not connected; they work by modifying the field in the air around the antenna. So the lack of connection between UHF elements is expected. The combiner should be integral to the antenna, but I believe different manufacturers implement it in different ways.


Ideally, the antenna shouldn't be touching anything. But then, ideally, it shouldn't be in an attic. If the wood is just touching the boom (what you call the "main trunk"), it's probably having little effect. If it's touching or in between the active elements, it could be more troublesome.


You should set up your system with a single device first, preferably one close to the antenna. Then try a single device at the distribution point. Then start worrying about amps.


Attic antennas don't need to be grounded, so they shouldn't have any effect on ground loops.


----------



## new2hdtv07




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/11613125
> 
> 
> The combiner should be integral to the antenna, but I believe different manufacturers implement it in different ways.



Ok, so my vhf elements are all connected to the boom, but my uhf elements are insulated from the boom. There are NO boxes that connect them, so it is reasonable that the uhf part of the antenna is "combining" the signal by increasing the gain of the field of uhf frequencies around the first vhf element that is connected to my transformer and coax.


----------



## MEJHarrison

I've been asking about my problems over in the Portland, OR OTA thread, but thought I might have better luck with more eyes looking at the issue. The problem is I can't get decent reception with an indoor antenna even though everyone tells me I should be just fine. Here's the details.


I'm roughly 6 miles from the towers. They're due east from my house (maybe just a hair NE) and plainly visible from outside or from a second story window. There are no hills or large buildings (other than the neighbor's 2 story house) nearby. No really large trees.


My antenna is sitting behind my TV in the SE corner of the house. Being so close, I started with a cheap $10 antenna. I got a few stations very well (7-10 bars). A few I can't really get in at all (0-2 bars). Maybe a little if I fool with the antenna, but they go in and out. And the rest are somewhere in the middle. So I upgraded to a $40 powered antenna. Very little change. So I got one of those Silver Sensor antennas. That gave me the best results, but the overall results are about the same as the $10 antenna. It's just a little more reliable.


Last night I decided to try an experiment. I moved the antenna outside on our patio (about a 5' move to the south). From outside, I was getting about 8-10 bars on every single channel.


Now everyone tells me any old cheap pair of rabbit ears should work great for me given that I'm so close to the broadcasting towers. Yet I can't seem to get decent results no matter what I try. I've tried pointing the antenna, moving it to other parts of the room, lifting it higher (it's about 4' off the ground at this point), holding it up at the ceiling level. But no matter what I do, the reception barely changes. Only moving it outside did the trick.


So if anyone has any great ideas, I'd love to hear them. I'm upgrading my D* service on Monday and will finally have the ability to record OTA HD. So I'd love to get a stable setup. Unless someone can pinpoint my problem, I'm just going to have the installer run a third line from the dish (mounted outside on our patio roof) and I'll mount the antenna out there (under the patio roof obviously to keep it out of the weather). It would be nice to keep the setup simple, but I don't know what else to do at this point.


If it helps, my location is Beaverton, OR 97006. I can provide the exact address if that helps.


----------



## Falcon_77

Do your walls have stucco? Can you aim the antenna out of a window?


It sounds like it could be a multipath problem within the house itself. Perhaps an attenuator is needed within the house to cut down on noise/interference.


I also see that you have a digital station on physical channel 4. That is probably going to be tough considering what I've heard on VHF-LO DTV stations (see Chicago WBBM).


----------



## MEJHarrison

No stucco on the walls. It's a regular, plain-jane house from the early 90's with vinyl siding. I can put the antenna in the window on the south side (towers are on the east side) and give that a shot. But we always keep those blinds (aluminum) shut and the curtains closed since it's directly next to the TV and the sun shines on the screen otherwise. I'll give that a shot tonight.


So, where does one pick up an attenuator? I searched online at Radio Shack and Fry's since both are real close, but neither found anything searching for "attenuator". And would there be any difference having it hooked up to my TV (Samsung HL-S5687 DLP) today and hooking it up to the DirecTV HR20 I'll be getting on Monday? I thought I heard something about some receivers needing a stronger signal.


As for the station on channel 4, it's ION (whatever the hell that is). I don't really care if I get it or not since I've never even heard of it.







Plus I think I've been able to pick it up in the past.


----------



## borekk

Quick question regarding receiving OTA HD signals. I'm going to blow my ignorance on this subject completely wide open (and I know this is a simple question), so please bear with me.


I just picked up a 50" Samsung plasma (HPT5054...on the advice of this forum, thanks!) today. I have never before tonight owned a device that can get HD channels. However, I'm unable to "see" any HD channels.


I do not have any type of HD antenna or anything of the like plugged in. I simply have the coax from my existing cable service plugged into the TV and those channels are coming in ok.


From the reading I've done here (and getting confused in a big hurry), it looks like all I need to do is purchase some kind of an antenna and hook it up to the TV in order to have it 'scan' to find the channels, is that correct? Is there a difference between a regular antenna and an HD antenna? Should I be looking for something specific when I go out tomorrow morning to buy one?


I hit up that antennaweb.org site and all of my local HD channels that I want to get are within 9 miles and yellow in color...evidently that means that they are the easiest to get?


Sorry if these are extremely base-line questions. I've read through several threads and it's obvious to me that I am light-years behind the curve of where I need to be to understand this comfortably right now. If anyone could offer me any advice, I would appreciate it.


Thanks in advance.


----------



## DECdaze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *borekk* /forum/post/11629024
> 
> 
> Quick question regarding receiving OTA HD signals. I'm going to blow my ignorance on this subject completely wide open (and I know this is a simple question), so please bear with me.



LOL! Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt, happy to pass on a few hints and tips, since you clearly are attempting to learn.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *borekk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I just picked up a 50" Samsung plasma (HPT5054...on the advice of this forum, thanks!) today. I have never before tonight owned a device that can get HD channels. However, I'm unable to "see" any HD channels.



Yup. One of the big box stores has an advertisement, which points out you need an HDTV, an HD source, their installation team, a Swiss bank account number ...











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *borekk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I do not have any type of HD antenna or anything of the like plugged in. I simply have the coax from my existing cable service plugged into the TV and those channels are coming in ok.



Sounds as if you are like me, you have standard (analog) cable TV service. You could purchase digital TV service from your cable company. They would then give you a set top box. Additionally - for a mere second mortgage - you can get an HD set top box, which gives you several HD channels. What they don't tell you is that with only a few exceptions those are available free as over the air (OTA) digital TV broadcasts.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *borekk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> From the reading I've done here (and getting confused in a big hurry), it looks like all I need to do is purchase some kind of an antenna and hook it up to the TV in order to have it 'scan' to find the channels, is that correct? Is there a difference between a regular antenna and an HD antenna? Should I be looking for something specific when I go out tomorrow morning to buy one?



There is no difference between an antenna that can receiver digital TV OTA broadcasts and one that receives analog broadcasts. That being said, most of the digital TV broadcasts are in the UHF band. We are in a transition period, when the broadcasters are transmitting both analog and digital signals. In 2009 the analog broadcasts will end. When that happens, some stations will change their final broadcast station. You can check those in your area. However, some stations (especially stations with the lower VHF band channels) will stay with UHF band channels:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...-06-1082A2.pdf 
So, yes. You use the following URLs to search for stations in your area:
http://www.antennaweb.org/ 
http://www.tvfool.com/ 
Are they all UHF (channels 14+) or are some VHF (channels 2-13)? If they are UHF, then you don't need to worry about the VHF frequencies and you can focus on just a UHF antenna.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *borekk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I hit up that antennaweb.org site and all of my local HD channels that I want to get are within 9 miles and yellow in color...evidently that means that they are the easiest to get?



Bingo. You can probably use a small indoor antenna to receive the UHF stations. Some of the antenna are omni-directional. The problem with that is that the signal can be reflected off nearby hills and buildings. On analog stations this can cause 'ghosts'. On digital stations it can cause enough of a drop in the signal strength to cause pixelation and sound loss.


So, many of the UHF antennas are directional. Some are amplified. Some are not. Some are the old classic circular loop and rabbit ear format. Some look like a modern sculpture.


Some are amplified many are not. Some HDTVs include a Low Noise Amplification circuit. With the stations only 9 miles away, you probably won't need an antenna with an amplifier.


Now, how well an indoor antenna will do will depend on several factors. Do you have a single or multi story house. Where is the antenna in relation to that? On the bottom story, the upper story may create more interference than if the antenna is on the upper story. Near a lot of trees? That can create a lot of interference. In a valley instead of a hill? You can get lots of multi-path reflection.


So, it's not just as simple as pick up 'x' antenna and away you go. However, that might be all you need. I wanted to see how well it work work, so I picked up a directional / amplified indoor antenna. It does pretty well. Well enough to convince me to try an attic mounted antenna to overcome some signal issues.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *borekk* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sorry if these are extremely base-line questions. I've read through several threads and it's obvious to me that I am light-years behind the curve of where I need to be to understand this comfortably right now. If anyone could offer me any advice, I would appreciate it.



For further reading you might also want to try:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/


----------



## barbie845




> Quote:
> I do not have any type of HD antenna or anything of the like plugged in. I simply have the coax from my existing cable service plugged into the TV and those channels are coming in ok.
> 
> 
> From the reading I've done here (and getting confused in a big hurry), it looks like all I need to do is purchase some kind of an antenna and hook it up to the TV in order to have it 'scan' to find the channels, is that correct? Is there a difference between a regular antenna and an HD antenna?



Call your cable company. Tell them you got a brand new toy and you need a HD box. If they want to charge you a billion $'s for it tell them you'll go elsewhere. D* is just about giving HD boxes away now.


As for an antenna if all your locals are in the same area/direction I recommend getting a inexpensive UHF directional antenna and if you have an attic, stick it up there somewhere and point it towards your locals. Something like this from Radio Shack should work fine for you...

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...rt&tab=summary


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MEJHarrison* /forum/post/11625603
> 
> 
> No stucco on the walls. It's a regular, plain-jane house from the early 90's with vinyl siding. I can put the antenna in the window on the south side (towers are on the east side) and give that a shot. But we always keep those blinds (aluminum) shut and the curtains closed since it's directly next to the TV and the sun shines on the screen otherwise. I'll give that a shot tonight.



Aluminum blinds? Have you tried reception with those pulled up? These are probably acting as screens and reflectors, which can hamper the signals.


Can you run a cable to another room with a view to the East, since it appears that the room in question doesn't have one?



> Quote:
> So, where does one pick up an attenuator? I searched online at Radio Shack and Fry's since both are real close, but neither found anything searching for "attenuator". And would there be any difference having it hooked up to my TV (Samsung HL-S5687 DLP) today and hooking it up to the DirecTV HR20 I'll be getting on Monday? I thought I heard something about some receivers needing a stronger signal.



The easiest attenuators to find are splitters. Even a 2-way split will cut the signal by 3.5-4dB (just over half). If you have any 3 or 4 way splits, they will decrease the signal further. I have some attenuators courtesy of the cable company, but perhaps Fry's would have them as well. I will check my local store today.


My brother used to live in Beaverton, but we didn't know about DTV in those days ('02). I still remember the phrase, "Drive Slow in LO," from my trip.


Edit: My local Fry's didn't have any attenuators, so they appear to be harder to find than I thought. The splitter approach will probably have to do for now.


----------



## chnky18

noob to all this but done my searching and reading so just want to check which antenna would be best...all my stations but 1 are in the green on tvfool.com. They come from the southside of my house where there is a window right next to the tv. So from reading an inside antenna will take care of me. Being in dfw, I need uhf/vhf. With that said, any recommendations on which antenna to get? Also, do i just place the antenna in the room, by the window, hang it in front of the window, keep the blinds up or is leaving them down fine? or does it matter? Then i run coax from ant. to "air" on my tv?


DO i need one with an amplifier?


good or no?
http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Phili...oductDetail.do 
http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Phili...oductDetail.do 
http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Phili...oductDetail.do


----------



## barbie845




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chnky18* /forum/post/11639545
> 
> 
> noob to all this but done my searching and reading so just want to check which antenna would be best...all my stations but 1 are in the green on tvfool.com. They come from the southside of my house where there is a window right next to the tv. So from reading an inside antenna will take care of me. Being in dfw, I need uhf/vhf. With that said, any recommendations on which antenna to get? Also, do i just place the antenna in the room, by the window, hang it in front of the window, keep the blinds up or is leaving them down fine? or does it matter? Then i run coax from ant. to "air" on my tv?
> 
> 
> DO i need one with an amplifier?
> 
> 
> good or no?
> http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Phili...oductDetail.do
> http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Phili...oductDetail.do
> http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Phili...oductDetail.do



It all matters, blinds, window or no window, etc. But if you're going to buy your antenna from CC buy the least expensive one, try it, see the results, and if it doesn't work bring the antenna back and get the next best/more expensive..


There's NO hard and fast rules with these OTA antennas and signals. I live 65 miles from Albany NY and pick up every station but 1. I've read where other people live 25 miles from the transmitters and pick up nothing.


It's trial and error. But since it sounds like you live close to these stations, start cheap, point the antenna you get out your window, preferably without the blinds( they may cause signal degradation), and plug it into 'air' on your box or TV.


----------



## Grayson73

Can someone recommend me some indoor antennas to try, preferably something I can buy and return B&M (Best buy, Circuit City, Sears, Radio Shack, etc)?


yellow - uhf WUSA-DT 9.1 CBS WASHINGTON DC 152° 8.9 34

yellow - uhf WTTG-DT 5.1 FOX WASHINGTON DC 151° 8.5 36

yellow - uhf WHUT-DT 33 PBS WASHINGTON DC TBD 152° 8.9 33

yellow - uhf WJLA-DT 7.1 ABC WASHINGTON DC 152° 8.9 39

green - uhf WDCA-DT 20.1 MNT WASHINGTON DC 152° 8.9 35

green - uhf WPXW-DT 66.1 ION MANASSAS VA 214° 19.8 43

green - uhf WNVC-DT 57.1 IND FAIRFAX VA 200° 12.4 57

red - uhf WDCW-DT 50.1 CW WASHINGTON DC 136° 10.4 51

red - uhf WFPT-DT 62.1 PBS FREDERICK MD 345° 16.0 28

blue - uhf WFDC-DT 14.1 TFA ARLINGTON VA 155° 9.4 15

blue - uhf WRC-DT 4.1 NBC WASHINGTON DC 155° 9.4 48

violet - uhf WETA-DT 26.1 PBS WASHINGTON DC 176° 11.3 27


----------



## gbynum




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *borekk* /forum/post/11629024
> 
> 
> I simply have the coax from my existing cable service plugged into the TV and those channels are coming in ok.



Nobody's lied much , but they haven't mentioned how to get the "in-the-clear" channels that PROBABLY are there.


In your configuration, you can have the jack either look at ATSC-8VSB or at QAM ... this is called terrestrial (antenna) or cable in many sets. Select "cable" then let it scan ... will take about an hour ... and odds are good you will have "some" channels. It may find the encrypted ones but not have any picture. It may find the music. It may find others PPV watching of the moment.


Good hunting!


----------



## Falcon_77

I picked up a Channel Master Advantage 3020 today. The store (Fry's) also had a 3016, and a 3671, but they wanted far too much for the 3671 as well as the 2 and 4 bay bow-ties ($50 each). I already have a CM4228, so the new one is a test antenna of sorts.


I was surprised by how dirty and greasy the 3020 was. I had to wash my hands about a dozen times while putting it together and aluminum shavings were falling all over the place. This was quite a shock after the 4228, which being a steel antenna, had none of these problems.


As expected, the 3020 is quite large. Too large to put the VHF and UHF portions together in my family room.










Incidentally, I got this antenna to try my hand at getting San Diego stations w/o disturbing my 4228. However, it's VHF-HI performance isn't that great. I measured all the dipoles and found that none of them appear to be tuned for VHF-HI.


These are the measurements I took:


UHF:


6" Directors: 19 - these seem quite short... am I right that these are tuned for ~936 MHz?

17" Corner Reflectors: 4 top, 4 bottom (330 MHz)

14" Corner Reflectors: 3 top, 3 bottom (400 MHz)

11.5" Driven Element: 1 (488 MHz)


VHF:


55" Reflectors: 4

29", 32",38", 41", 47", & 53" LPDA elements: 2 each (53-96 MHz)


The VHF elements are swept forward. This seems to be counterproductive. They can be left more or less straight, which I may try.


Since it doesn't have any VHF-HI length dipoles, what would the effect be if I cut down the elements to form a VHF-HI LPDA instead? Has anyone tried this?


Does anyone know when Channel Master, Winegard and the like will start stocking 7-51 specific antennas. Especially on the high end, cutting UHF directors for channel 69 (or higher?) doesn't seem like a good idea anymore.


As for performance, both the UHF and VHF portions worked well enough separately, but I don't have enough room to combine them (no outside option here).


I also ended up ordering a Winegard YA1713, which I will be very curious to test. I wonder if it will be as greasy...


----------



## tyromark

I've wondered about cutting the length of VHF-low elements on an older combo antenna many of us may have laying around. If the measurements were correct and cutting/crimping precise, is there any reason NOT to try this when we're trying to receive frequencies that may be no lower than VHF channels 7 (in my market, Ch. 10, actually) and up?


----------



## MeowMeow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tyromark* /forum/post/11646767
> 
> 
> I've wondered about cutting the length of VHF-low elements on an older combo antenna many of us may have laying around. If the measurements were correct and cutting/crimping precise, is there any reason NOT to try this when we're trying to receive frequencies that may be no lower than VHF channels 7 (in my market, Ch. 10, actually) and up?



Hmm... I hadn't thought about that. It's an interesting idea. Unfortunately for me, none of my locals will be VHF until Feb 2009. On the upside, I have several antennas to test with.


----------



## Audioman1

I have the channel master 3020 and I can pick up stations 75 miles away when I turn the rotor that way, I have it about 40 feet in the air tho.


----------



## Nitewatchman

Would imagine The spacing between the elements, as well as specifics involving different element lengths(for reflectors/directors/etc) is as important(or more) for broadband receive antenna design as it is for single frequency Yagi's.


In other words, I'm not so sure you can just "cut down" the elements of a broadband VHF(or VHF/UHF antenna) to be ~1/2 wavelength dipole on hi-VHF and expect it to perform well on Hi-VHF.


As for the reason VHF elements on antennas like CM3020 are "swept forward", and "don't" have elements of ~1/2 wavelength on hi~VHF ... it involves a harmonic relationship between low VHF(and thus the lo-VHF "elements" on the antenna) and hi~VHF ... In other words, the "swept forward" low VHF elements are "used" for Hi-VHF reception as well ...


This is explained in more detail and accuracy here, specifically beginning in the 4th paragraph of the "comparision shopping" section(you'll probably want to read the rest of the article as well, however) :

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...antennas.shtml


----------



## wmbjr

I live in zip code 29063. I have most of the main channels in one general direction. However, my ABC channel is VHF 8 and another will be moving to VHF 10 in 2009. Will a basic Channelmaster 4 bowtie such as the 4021 work to pick up all channels or will I need a separate UHF and VHF antenna? Thanks.


----------



## Neil L

wmbjr, a 4-bay bow-tie might work OK, but the Channelmaster 8-bay is much stronger on hi-vhf. My CM 4228 picks up channels 8 and 9 from about 30 miles just fine. I also get analog channels 10 and 13 very well from about 75 miles away.


----------



## TV Trey




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tyromark* /forum/post/11646767
> 
> 
> I've wondered about cutting the length of VHF-low elements on an older combo antenna many of us may have laying around. If the measurements were correct and cutting/crimping precise, is there any reason NOT to try this when we're trying to receive frequencies that may be no lower than VHF channels 7 (in my market, Ch. 10, actually) and up?



Combination VHF/UHF antennas like the CM 3020 have the VHF elements cut to cover frequencies from 54 to 88 Mhz. Due to odd harmonics, these same elements will also work well for frequencies in the 164 to 264Mhz. Changing the length of the elements would not be advised. The elements are swept forward to reduce beam splitting.


----------



## wmbjr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/11650871
> 
> 
> wmbjr, a 4-bay bow-tie might work OK, but the Channelmaster 8-bay is much stronger on hi-vhf. My CM 4228 picks up channels 8 and 9 from about 30 miles just fine. I also get analog channels 10 and 13 very well from about 75 miles away.



My main concern is the fact I will likely end up with the antenna in my attic instead of outside. I am not sure I will have room for the 4228. I will certainly consider it though. If I end up going the smaller antenna route, any combinations of UHF and VHF that would work in an attic? Thanks.


----------



## Nitewatchman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TV Trey* /forum/post/11651045
> 
> 
> Combination VHF/UHF antennas like the CM 3020 have the VHF elements cut to cover frequencies from 54 to 88 Mhz. Due to odd harmonics, these same elements will also work well for frequencies in the 164 to 264Mhz. Changing the length of the elements would not be advised. The elements are swept forward to reduce beam splitting.



From 2 posts above that :



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nitewatchman* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As for the reason VHF elements on antennas like CM3020 are "swept forward", and "don't" have elements of ~1/2 wavelength on hi~VHF ... it involves a harmonic relationship between low VHF(and thus the lo-VHF "elements" on the antenna) and hi~VHF ... In other words, the "swept forward" low VHF elements are "used" for Hi-VHF reception as well ...
> 
> 
> This is explained in more detail and accuracy here, specifically beginning in the 4th paragraph of the "comparision shopping" section(you'll probably want to read the rest of the article as well, however) :
> 
> http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...antennas.shtml



Anyone want to find a 3rd way to say this ?










edit: It probably wouldn't be a bad idea, because I've seen posts in local threads of people "getting rid" of the lo-VHF elements of their VHF/UHF combo+expecting them to still work well on HI-VHF ...


----------



## Falcon_77

So, it appears the Crossfire series is far different from the Advantage series. I can clearly see the VHF-HI elements on the pictures.


What purpose do the reflectors serve on the back of the Advantage? Behind a Yagi driven element is one thing, but behind an LPDA?


Well, I won't make any changes to it yet. I need to test it higher up to see how it compares with my ground level reception. If I put it in the attic, it might be even more fun than getting the 4228 up there.


----------



## Jigga Moog

My zip is 44142. I would like to put it in the attic of my ranch I have no obstructions. DB8 or 4228 or something else. I am undecided.


* yellow - vhf WKYC-DT 3.1 NBC CLEVELAND OH 109° 5.1 2

* yellow - vhf WOIO-DT 19.1 CBS SHAKER HEIGHTS OH 108° 4.8 10

* yellow - uhf WUAB-DT 43.1 MNT LORAIN OH 121° 3.7 28

* yellow - uhf WQHS-DT 61.1 UNI Cleveland OH 113° 4.5 34

* yellow - uhf WVIZ-DT 25.1 PBS CLEVELAND OH 158° 4.7 26

* yellow - uhf WBNX-DT 55.1 CW AKRON OH 111° 4.8 30

* yellow - uhf WJW-DT 8.1 FOX CLEVELAND OH 133° 4.4 31

* yellow - uhf WEWS-DT 5.1 ABC CLEVELAND OH 125° 4.0 15

* blue - uhf WEAO-DT 50.1 PBS AKRON OH 168° 23.3 50


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jigga Moog* /forum/post/11652274
> 
> 
> My zip is 44142. I would like to put it in the attic of my ranch I have no obstructions. DB8 or 4228 or something else. I am undecided.
> 
> 
> * yellow - vhf WKYC-DT 3.1 NBC CLEVELAND OH 109° 5.1 2



You are only 4 to 5 miles from the broadcast towers. Have you tried an indoor antenna? WKYC-DT NBC 3 is on VHF 2, so you need a VHF antenna to with a UHF antenna. I would start with a basic table top VHF rabbit ears and UHF loop antenna high up in the room or near a window if you have not tried an antenna yet. Extend the rabbit ears all the way for the long wavelength of VHF 2.


----------



## Jigga Moog




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/11652506
> 
> 
> You are only 4 to 5 miles from the broadcast towers. Have you tried an indoor antenna? WKYC-DT NBC 3 is on VHF 2, so you need a VHF antenna to with a UHF antenna. I would start with a basic table top VHF rabbit ears and UHF loop antenna high up in the room or near a window if you have not tried an antenna yet. Extend the rabbit ears all the way for the long wavelength of VHF 2.



I have literally 30 year(the guy I bought the house from told me he put it up there) antenna in my attic and it does not get 25,50,or 55 so I was going to upgrade which I really don't mind doing. My TV is in the basement so I wanted to stay away from rabbit ears. What about that new ubh 22(I think that's the model #)that was mentioned a while back in this thread.


----------



## DECdaze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jigga Moog* /forum/post/11654442
> 
> 
> I have literally 30 year(the guy I bought the house from told me he put it up there) antenna in my attic and it does not get 25,50,or 55 so I was going to upgrade which I really don't mind doing. My TV is in the basement so I wanted to stay away from rabbit ears. What about that new ubh 22(I think that's the model #)that was mentioned a while back in this thread.



Since you already have the wiring in place, you may want to add a UHF antenna in attic and join them. Perhaps something like a Channel Master 4220 antenna and a Channel Master 0549 VHF/UHF antenna joiner.


Of course, I also bet the coax has not been replaced in those 30 years. That could result in signal loss as well. Those cables don't last forever. So, that might also need work at the same time.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jigga Moog* /forum/post/11654442
> 
> 
> I have literally 30 year(the guy I bought the house from told me he put it up there) antenna in my attic and it does not get 25,50,or 55 so I was going to upgrade which I really don't mind doing. My TV is in the basement so I wanted to stay away from rabbit ears. What about that new ubh 22(I think that's the model #)that was mentioned a while back in this thread.



Ok, the basement could be an issue for an indoor antenna. The old antenna may be fine, provided that it has a decent UHF antenna on it. The problem may be in the cable which at that old, may be twinlead or RG-59 coaxial. Co-axial cable does age and crack. If the cable is at all accessible, you should replace it with RG-6. Short of that, check the connection points for oxidization or corrosion.


If you replace the antenna, you need to get a full VHF/UHF short to medium range antenna to get WKYC-DT NBC 3 on VHF 2. BTW, WKYC-DT NBC 3 will be switching it's digital channel to UHF 17 in 2009 after the analog shutdown. The Winegard HD7080P or one of several shorter range Channel Master VHF/UHF antennas should do the job.


----------



## Jigga Moog




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/11655228
> 
> 
> Ok, the basement could be an issue for an indoor antenna. The old antenna may be fine, provided that it has a decent UHF antenna on it. The problem may be in the cable which at that old, may be twinlead or RG-59 coaxial. Co-axial cable does age and crack. If the cable is at all accessible, you should replace it with RG-6. Short of that, check the connection points for oxidization or corrosion.
> 
> 
> If you replace the antenna, you need to get a full VHF/UHF short to medium range antenna to get WKYC-DT NBC 3 on VHF 2. BTW, WKYC-DT NBC 3 will be switching it's digital channel to UHF 17 in 2009 after the analog shutdown. The Winegard HD7080P or one of several shorter range Channel Master VHF/UHF antennas should do the job.



How about the Winegard HD7084P would it be overkill. Is overkill such a thing in the antenna world? I plan on replacing the cable,about 50-75 feet,with RG6 quad. Do I need a pre-amp? I don't mind spending a little extra money if it helps me in the long run.


----------



## DECdaze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jigga Moog* /forum/post/11655999
> 
> 
> How about the Winegard HD7084P would it be overkill. Is overkill such a thing in the antenna world? I plan on replacing the cable,about 50-75 feet,with RG6 quad. Do I need a pre-amp? I don't mind spending a little extra money if it helps me in the long run.



Within 4 or 5 miles of the broadcast tower, I doubt you need the 84. The 80 should suffice. Besides the 84 is 11 foot in length! The 80 is only 7.5 foot. If the smaller antenna suffices you'll have less problems with it. (Larger = heavier = requires more bracing = harder to rotate if needed = too much of a good thing).


As to the preamp, well 100' of coax at upper UHF frequencies causes about 6dB signal loss. Not much if you are 4 to 5 miles away. The following URL helps you get a sense of the signal strength in your area:

http://www.tvfool.com/ 


Enter your address and check the strength (rx dBm). In the green range a small antenna - even with 100' of coax cable - should suffice without a preamplifier. By the way, I used this to compare the signal strengths in other areas around our metropolitan area. I plug in different ZIP codes to get a sense of how much distance impacts the signal strength.


By the way, from my reading, it appears old cable causes more signal loss in the UHF band than the VHF bands, so just the cable replacement can help. But 30 years old probably also suggests an antenna replacement and check of the mount while you are replacing the antenna.


Some good reading on this can be found at:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ 


Just my 2 cents.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nitewatchman* /forum/post/11650270
> 
> 
> Would imagine The spacing between the elements, as well as specifics involving different element lengths(for reflectors/directors/etc) is as important(or more) for broadband receive antenna design as it is for single frequency Yagi's.
> 
> 
> In other words, I'm not so sure you can just "cut down" the elements of a broadband VHF(or VHF/UHF antenna) to be ~1/2 wavelength dipole on hi-VHF and expect it to perform well on Hi-VHF.
> 
> 
> As for the reason VHF elements on antennas like CM3020 are "swept forward", and "don't" have elements of ~1/2 wavelength on hi~VHF ... it involves a harmonic relationship between low VHF(and thus the lo-VHF "elements" on the antenna) and hi~VHF ... In other words, the "swept forward" low VHF elements are "used" for Hi-VHF reception as well ...
> 
> 
> This is explained in more detail and accuracy here, specifically beginning in the 4th paragraph of the "comparision shopping" section(you'll probably want to read the rest of the article as well, however) :
> 
> http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...antennas.shtml



A little history: Back in the late 50's/early 60's, researchers at U. of Illinois (and elsewhere)

developed numerical calculation methods for a variety of log periodic antenna structures:
http://wwwold.ece.uiuc.edu/alumni/su04/antennas.html 


This included the common LPDA, the swept forward LPVA (Log Periodic Vee Array),

the Triangular Trapezoid Log Periodic Array and the Spiral Log Periodic:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/g...ml#logperiodic 

The LPLA (Log Periodic Loop Array) came later:
http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/ava...d/ETD_LPLA.pdf 


Once these numerical techniques were developed, it was possible to

model arbitrary arrangements of metallic structures.

Which led to complicated multi-band antenna structures, such as

a mixture of element lengths throughout the antenna, such as

CM Crossfire and some WG series:
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/HD7084P.pdf 

and LPDAs with Yagi-type reflector and director elements.


If you take the time to learn the NEC modeling program, you could

determine what happens when you shorten antenna elements.

However, bear in mind that you should ALSO be changing the

spacing between elements as well.

Simply hacking off elements can cause very strange results because

each element affects all of the other elements due to mutual coupling.

You might end up with deep nulls where you least expect them....


The pros perform thousands of trial and error runs (check out the

crazy antenna in Fig2):
http://alglobus.net/NASAwork/papers/...006Antenna.pdf 
http://ic.arc.nasa.gov/people/jlohn/Papers/ices2001.pdf 
http://www.stormingmedia.us/28/2807/A280744.html 


Some example NEC models for LPDA/LPVA's:
http://www.cebik.com/lpda/teler.html 

Lots of other examples if you follow the links at the bottom....


----------



## tyromark

=ahem= (clears throat) Yes, well, I see there ARE some good reasons for not cutting down the VHF-low elements on an old antenna. Thanks.


----------



## DECdaze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/11685681
> 
> 
> ... The pros perform thousands of trial and error runs (check out the crazy antenna in Fig2):
> http://alglobus.net/NASAwork/papers/...006Antenna.pdf



Wow! They look more like someone spending a few minutes bending a paperclip than the result of hundreds or thousands of hours trying to optimize an antenna for weight and signal reccption.


By the way, this is a great post. Informative at lots of different levels. The math is beyond me, but you include sources that allowed us to learn without being completely overwhelmed. Thanks for taking the time and effort!


----------



## Rick0725




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jigga Moog* /forum/post/11655999
> 
> 
> How about the Winegard HD7084P would it be overkill. Is overkill such a thing in the antenna world? I plan on replacing the cable,about 50-75 feet,with RG6 quad. Do I need a pre-amp? I don't mind spending a little extra money if it helps me in the long run.



im my opinion there is no such thing as overkill unless you are not using an appropriate amplifier close up. If you want the best and it fits I have no problem with the hd7084p. I am 12-18 miles from towers and I use an hd8200p with no problems. The pictures are pristine and if I want to play and receive distant channels I have the flexibility.


To lessen overload potential I use an hdp269 preamp and only amplify the uhf and pass vhf/fm. If that interests you I can send you a diagram. I use the hdp 269 winegard preamp as a distribution amp mounted indoors at the distribution point. I get overload with the preamp mounted at antenna. The hdp269 is low noise and has only 12db gainwith much better specs than most distribution amps and a good match to give the higher frequencies a boost around the home. The vhf does not need to be amplified and I use the antenna for fm which I enjoy when I want to listen to music outside on the deck.


The hd7080p is ok but the hd7082P is a better matched antenna spec wise, only 18" longer, and only a few dollars more.


In regards to rg 6 coax. I have gone with tri shield cable with problem installs where signal ingress issues are suspect...no more quadshield and feel trishield works better. I use standard high quality rg6 otherwise since I have found that quad is not really necessary and requires special connectors. the standard rg6 connector works on trishield.


----------



## holl_ands

Finally found Cebik's NEC modeling article re LPDA ("log-cell") with reflector and director...
http://www.cebik.com/qex/lcy.pdf 
http://www.cebik.com/logcell/logc.html 

The best of both designs: the much wider frequency coverage of an LPDA

with the higher gain from the quasi-Yagi reflector and director elements.


He includes an analysis of the LPVA ("Vee") antenna:
http://www.cebik.com/logcell/logc4.html 

For the chosen hybrid Log-cell Yagi design, Cebik didn't see any

advantage for the "Vee" over a straight Log-Cell Yagi.

But he didn't compare a pure LPDA to a pure LPVA.....


Note that he's only covering the narrow 10-meter amateur radio band,

so don't expect these high gains for an extremely wideband TV antenna.


----------



## Nitewatchman

holl_ands,


Thanks for the providing the detailed info+Links .... As others have noted, Excellent post, and fun reading.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Note that he's only covering the narrow 10-meter amateur radio band,
> 
> so don't expect these high gains for an extremely wideband TV antenna.



Perhaps however a ~6 element Hi-VHF(174~216MHZ) LPDA might offer "good enough" performance for many folks, while being significantly smaller than a winegard YA-1713 or the "homebrew" Hi-VHF LPDA mentioned farther below ...


It seems to no longer be on Winegard site, but Starkelectronics still shows this Winegard 6 element, (50" boom - maximum width 35") ch 7-13, what they call "broadband yagi"-* antenna on their site (Note : for reasons discussed before, personally I might view the winegard spec sheet info included at this link, especially perhaps the gain figures provided with a bit of a "grain of salt")

http://www.starkelectronic.com/wya6713.htm 


* - Note - That's what it says, I didn't call it that ... I think many of these broadband TV receive antennas are probably usually more accurately defined as something that could be reffered to as "hybrid" design rather than something that is "strictly" say, a LPDA or yagi ....


Perhaps something along those lines may work for what falcon77 is looking for in a "smaller" VHF-Hi antenna(obvioulsly, it won't offer the gain/directivity of the YA1713 or the "homebrew" hi-VHF LPDA mentioned below).


For those who missed it earlier in this thread, Those interested in designs and info on a homebrew Hi-VHF LPDA receive antenna(12 or 13 elements, 92" boom length --for ch 7-13, 174~216MHZ) May want to see this post earlier in this thread by Calavaras + the info on it in URL provided in his post(also included below) :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=6130 

http://www.aa6g.org/Lp/lp.html 



> Quote:
> .... However, bear in mind that you should ALSO be changing the
> 
> spacing between elements as well.....
> 
> 
> ..... Simply hacking off elements can cause very strange results because
> 
> each element affects all of the other elements due to mutual coupling.
> 
> You might end up with deep nulls where you least expect them....



Yep, Very well said ...


Also, along the lines of DECdaze's post -- Your excellent post+the info at links you provided should hopefully illuminate a bit the complex issues involved regarding designing such broadband receive antennas(especially relatively "small" ones), and involving the compromises usually necessary to design a product which will not only make it to market, but also achieve some success there ....


Given the situation regarding Lo-VHF and as it looks right now : Few full service DTV broadcasters in U.S. using it now, or for after analog shut off(unless we get a lot of "new" full service or potentially LP stations after analog shut off) : I do wonder if we will see more Hi-VHF+UHF antenna designs such as this one, discussed previously either in this or another antenna related thread :

http://www.antennacraft.net/HBU22.htm 


Given that I expect for many folks there is a "lot to be said" for only needing one "all in one" antenna for TV reception, where only hi-VHF+UHF tv reception is required or desired, perhaps it would be good to see more hi VHF+UHF combo antenna designs like HBU22 available for folks ...


But, I think at least currently the best option for those who don't need/want decent lo-VHF or FM reception or the generally "larger" antennas involved, but do want or need good performance on VHF-HI and UHF in most circumstances would be to use seperate UHF and Hi-VHF antenna(such as Winegard YA-1713) along with VHF/UHF coupler such as CM #0549 or seperate VHF/UHF inputs on some preamps. Think this can also be advantagous in such situations w/o rotor where a single, desired HI-VHF station is in a different direction from desired UHF station, as then antenna can be aimed in different direction. Of course, a single channel Hi-VHF antenna would be a good option in this case as well, provided the station involved is going to "stay there" post analog shut off.


Of course, in addition to "for Hi-VHF" some of us also use either broadband VHF antennas or combo VHF/UHF antennas for FM reception and/or for lo-VHF TV/DTV ....


------------------


----------



## Falcon_77

Well, I guess I won't be cutting down on the 3020's VHF elements after all.










Thank you for the information, though it is a bit more than I can digest right now.


Actually, just the VHF elements on the 3020 are performing very well for me, but the size of the thing is making it a daunting task to mount anywhere. It also performs well enough for most of the UHF channels, probably for the same reasons it does ok in upper VHF.


I assembled the Winegard YA-1713 last night. Unlike every other antenna I have tried, this is a very narrow band antenna. As predicted 7-13 come in well, but it is more bi-directional than I thought it would be. Maybe it is just a case of strong signals, but 9 came in just as well from the back-end as far as I could see.


In general, I have found the front-to-back ratios on most antennas to be overly forgiving. On the UHF portion of the 3020, the back-side can still pick up a great deal of signal.


Perhaps I should have stated my goal for the current project a while back. I'm trying to pick up San Diego stations from my attic.










I have only been able to pick up analog 8, 10 and 15 from San Diego thus far. The 4228's back side gets 8 & 10, but only on occasion, when enhancement is good.


Up to this point, the 1713 hasn't improved 8 and 10, but I haven't put it in the attic yet. Oddly enough, 15 came in from the VHF part of the 3020.


There are absolutely no signs of any digital signals from San Diego, but I am only using a 10dB distribution amp and not the CM7777 as yet.


Perhaps I should mention that San Diego is obscured by a few hills and I have to look through another unit's 3rd floor as well (My attic is on the 3rd floor). The 4228 is mounted where it cannot be rotated and faces Mt. Wilson, so I'm trying others to point to San Diego.


It makes for a fun project, that's for sure.


----------



## Jigga Moog

What kind of cable should I use with winegard 7082? Is there a drawback using RG6 quad?


----------



## JJPP

I live in Howell near Pickney zip 48843. I was hoping to get away with a cm 4221 or at most cm 4228. I am looking for an antenna to use in my attic or indoors for Detroit/Lansing hd/dtv. I currently am using a Radio Shack 15-1892 with so so results. I would like a more stable picture. I don't want to invest a lot of $$$ because when my Dish contract is up I am changing to Directv w/hd. I refuse to pay Dish's upgrade prices and new contract. Most store antennas are junk and if I order one off the internet I don't want to try to return it.


----------



## JJPP

I live in Howell near Pickney zip 48843. I was hoping to get away with a cm 4221 or at most cm 4882. I am looking for an antenna to use in my attic or indoors for Detroit/Lansing hd/dtv. I currently am using a Radio Shack 15-1892 with so so results. I would like a more stable picture. I don't want to invest a lot of $$$ because when my Dish contract is up I am changing to Directv w/hd. I refuse to pay Dish's upgrade prices and new contract. Most store antennas are junk and if I order one off the internet I don't want to try to return it.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JJPP* /forum/post/11701433
> 
> 
> I live in Howell near Pickney zip 48843. I was hoping to get away with a cm 4221 or at most cm 4882. I am looking for an antenna to use in my attic or indoors for Detroit/Lansing hd/dtv. I currently am using a Radio Shack 15-1892 with so so results. I would like a more stable picture. I don't want to invest a lot of $$$ because when my Dish contract is up I am changing to Directv w/hd. I refuse to pay Dish's upgrade prices and new contract. Most store antennas are junk and if I order one off the internet I don't want to try to return it.



Using the default location on antennaweb.org, you will need to mount the antenna above your roof to get more than a couple DTV stations. Plan to use a rotator for multiple markets.


Ultimately you'll get Detroit stations with DirecTV, but the Lansing stations will be easier with the antenna. You may want to use both D* and OTA.


----------



## Dan Kolton

Try phone: (800) 528-9984

http://www.dennysantennaservice.com in Ithaca,MI. Denny is pretty knowledgeable, and he gives you a full year return priviledge. I'm in Southfield. He sold me a CM4221 for my attic, and it works great after moving it around a few times, but I'm a lot closer to the broadcast towers than you.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JJPP* /forum/post/11701416
> 
> 
> I live in Howell near Pickney zip 48843. I was hoping to get away with a cm 4221 or at most cm 4882. I am looking for an antenna to use in my attic or indoors for Detroit/Lansing hd/dtv. I currently am using a Radio Shack 15-1892 with so so results. I would like a more stable picture. I don't want to invest a lot of $$$ because when my Dish contract is up I am changing to Directv w/hd.



All of your locals are currently on UHF and scattered around in azimuth, so the CM 4221 is a reasonable choice in that regard. Complicated list of digital stations in different directions that are up to 44+ miles away. Checking the FCC data, I see 2 stations switching to upper VHF in Feb., 2009: WJBK-DT Fox 2 will switch from UHF 58 to VHF 7 and WJRT-DT ABC 12 in Flint will switch from UHF 36 to VHF 12. The CM 4221 may not get the WJBK-DT Fox 2 on VHF 7 in 2009 at your range of some 44 miles. You might need to add a upper VHF antenna at that time.


You are pretty far from some of the stations for a CM 4221. I do get stations out to 43+ miles in different with a CM 4221 and a CM 7777 pre-amp in my attic. The CM 4228 (I assume that is what you meant) has more gain, but is more directional, so you may have to use a rotator with it. Your closest station is 17 miles, so a pre-amp won't be a problem.


You could try a CM 4221 combined with a CM 7777 pre-amp. The CM 7777 pre-amp has switchable separate inputs for UHF and VHF, so you can add a VHF antenna to it later. You could try the CM 4221 without a pre-amp and get the pre-amp later if you decide you need it.


If you put the antenna in the attic. my advice is to mount it to a piece of flat wood or a movable stand. Attic have dead zones, so you want the flexibility of moving the antenna around in the attic until you find a good location for receiving the weaker stations. You will have to experiment with the aim of the CM 4221 or 4228 for best overall results. Start by aiming it at the more distant stations and see if you can pick up the closer stations in the other directions in the backlobe. Taking the reflecting back-screen off of the CM bowties is an option to make the antenna fully bi-directional.


----------



## Geo05

Based on info from this thread (thanks!), I installed a CM4221 in the attic of my ranch home. The NY broadcast stations are ~26 miles away. The main digital stations of interest are coming in with good reception (signal strength ~80).

However, Ch 13 (VHF, green) comes in but is a bit fuzzy. The problem is worsened due to the fact that my TV requires separate analog and digital signal inputs. If I use a splitter, signal strength drops by ~10.


Any suggestions on how I may improve Ch 13 reception?


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Geo05* /forum/post/11705535
> 
> 
> Based on info from this thread (thanks!), I installed a CM4221 in the attic of my ranch home. The NY broadcast stations are ~26 miles away. The main digital stations of interest are coming in with good reception (signal strength ~80).
> 
> However, Ch 13 (VHF, green) comes in but is a bit fuzzy. The problem is worsened due to the fact that my TV requires separate analog and digital signal inputs. If I use a splitter, signal strength drops by ~10.
> 
> 
> Any suggestions on how I may improve Ch 13 reception?



I take it you mean that analog 13 is fuzzy (PBS?). Doesn't its digital channel carry the same programming? That should be pristine.


The 4221 is designed for UHF channels 14-69. You can sometimes get away with using it on digital channels 7-13 because you can also sometimes get them with a coathanger.


There are people here who will tell you that the CM4228 is better on VHF highband channels 7-13, but analog channels require flatness across the channel more-so than do digital channels, so you might be dissatisfied with analog reception of channel 13 even if digital reception of channel 13 in other markets has been satisfactory.


If you are trying to get a good looking analog channel 13, then you can buy any small VHF highband antenna, commonly called model 6713, meaning 6 elements, ch 7-13, for which you will pay less than $40, and couple it using something called a UVSJ, which you can find on the internet for three bucks.


Is your channel 13 now coming from the same tower as the other NYC channels?


----------



## Geo05

Thanks, AntAltMike.

Yes, its PBS (WNET) I'm interested in. For some reason, the WNET-DT has a different program schedule. Yes, you are right, the digital version is indeed pristine. But it shows "Rick Steve's Europe", when I want the "News Hour".

Not sure if the "News Hour" is bradcast in digital, or how I may find out...


----------



## MeowMeow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Geo05* /forum/post/11706170
> 
> 
> Thanks, AntAltMike.
> 
> Yes, its PBS (WNET) I'm interested in. For some reason, the WNET-DT has a different program schedule. Yes, you are right, the digital version is indeed pristine. But it shows "Rick Steve's Europe", when I want the "News Hour".
> 
> Not sure if the "News Hour" is bradcast in digital, or how I may find out...



Most PBS stations run PBS-HD as their big waa-hoo and then run the local station's analog programming as a sub channel. For example, my nearest PBS runs HD on 3.1, it's regular analog signal on 3.2 and PBS World on 3.3.


----------



## richard korsgren




Tower Guy said:


> Using the default location on antennaweb.org, you will need to mount the antenna above your roof to get more than a couple DTV stations. Plan to use a rotator for multiple markets.
> 
> 
> Ultimately you'll get Detroit stations with DirecTV, but the Lansing stations will be easier with the antenna. You may want to use both D* and OTA.[/QUOI
> 
> 
> I am somewhat west of you by 10 miles and I receive Detroit locals via Directv and the Lansing locals via UHF Televes antenna (loud and clear). I also have a rotator but really never use it. I 'split' the difference in locations of Lansing towers and still get 90-100 as signal strength. I have a Directv HD DVR. I would image, sometime in 08, Directv will carry Lansing stations. I can also get Flint stations but really find no need to do so. I find Directv and OTA give me about the same quality and that quality is excellent. For good reception an antenna must be mounted outdoors on roof with good line of sight to transmitting towers. You will need a rotator if you want to get sttions in opposite directions. I would go with Directv for Detroit locals and OTA for Lansing locals.


----------



## JJPP

Thanks Richard, I am going to switch to Directv as soon as my Dish contract expires. I didn't plan on a hdtv just yet but the old tv crapped out so I was not worried about it when I signed the contract. Now I've been spoiled by the sports that I can pickup ota. I was just looking to bridge the gap with a more reliable antenna. I was wondering when you get Directv Hd do you get all the digtal stations with hd or just the main hd brodcast?


----------



## MeowMeow

*Rotator drift?*


Somewhat odd question. I have a CM rotator that seems to drift off target. It doesn't take it very long before it is more than 100 degrees off target.


Is this normal?


It feels like one of those problems that you call the manufacturer and they send you a tiny screw to fix it.


----------



## Geo05




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MeowMeow* /forum/post/11710225
> 
> 
> Most PBS stations run PBS-HD as their big waa-hoo and then run the local station's analog programming as a sub channel. For example, my nearest PBS runs HD on 3.1, it's regular analog signal on 3.2 and PBS World on 3.3.



Unfortunately not in my case. There are sub channels: 13.1 is 13-HD (different), 13.2 is kids-13 and 13.3 is a latino family entertainment channel in Spanish.


I am not sure about a separate VHF antenna, since I will nevertheless have to use a splitter at the TV and lose quality of both analog and digital signals. Would a pre-amp help? If it compensated for the spltter and gave a slight additional boost, I expect to be in good shape!


----------



## navyblue2000

I was up in my attic today, and where they had previously wired the house for cable, they had this as an amp:

http://www.vonero.com/index/showproduct/830895 


VSA-604C amplifier. It's 100 bucks or more retail, but that doesn't speak to its quality. I'm wondering if it's a good amp to use, and if the blue output is any different than the others. I'm still kinda new to this and I haven't found much information on the specifics of this amp.


Thanks for any info!


----------



## Mallego

navy, that amplifier was made by the Viewsonic Division of Emerson. It doesn't seem to be in their current product lineup.


I am familiar with their product line and can say that this amplifier has a good noise figure and 15 dB of gain, minus the loss of the 4 way splitter, gives 8 dB of boost on the outputs. You don't mention waht you are going to do with it, use it on your antenna system maybe? If so, it should work pretty well, I use a similar unit to ampilify some of my UHF channels with great results.


Mallego


----------



## MeowMeow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Geo05* /forum/post/11716595
> 
> 
> Unfortunately not in my case. There are sub channels: 13.1 is 13-HD (different), 13.2 is kids-13 and 13.3 is a latino family entertainment channel in Spanish.
> 
> 
> I am not sure about a separate VHF antenna, since I will nevertheless have to use a splitter at the TV and lose quality of both analog and digital signals. Would a pre-amp help? If it compensated for the spltter and gave a slight additional boost, I expect to be in good shape!



Actually, the CM 7777 preamp can act as a VHF-UHF combiner and might help some of your problem.


As for your digital subs, you need to ask your PBS station what they plan to do after the shutdown. What happens to your truly local programming? Is it done for? Kapput?!


The PBS channel out of Pittsburgh, PA, for example, bends over backwards to make as much local programming available as possible, with one of their subs dedicated to purely local programs and nothing else and another sub with mixed national and local stuff. The Penn State PBS station also lays on a pretty good coat of PSU-oriented local/propaganda programming on it's one sub. Both carry the HD channel.


Without local programming, one of the more significant contributions of PBS goes to waste.


----------



## Rick0725

Awww..you purchased a cm4221 and can not receive vhf to your satisfaction.


----------



## navyblue2000

Yeah, right now it's amplifying my antenna system. I have standard cable + cable internet, cable TV is going unamplified to 2 TV's. Funny thing is all this time I thought I was connecting with the amplifier until I got back up there to move the cables around - turns out I was watching unamplified the whole time, LOL. It's pointed towards cincinnati (I'm ~20 miles away, to the E/NE, but I get some dayton channels which are due North of me).


----------



## jk870

Hi guys,


I have a CM 3016 mounted on a chimney, currently with a cheapo 10db mast-mounted amp I bought on Ebay, and roughly 75' of RG6 cable. It appears as though the VHF-Low gain is very low on this model (~1.2db), but I am getting perfect reception on analog channel 4 (I also have unobstructed LOS at 33 miles).


My question is this: I completely understand the CM 4228 is not intended for VHF, particularly low VHF, but would the gain really be any worse than the 3016 on Ch 4? Is anyone having any luck at all with low-VHF on the 4228?


After 2009, analog 4 moves to 7, where its digital channel is now, but my other channels are 13, 16, and 29. I'd like to move to the 4228 now to get the bulk of the other channels, as long as I might still be able to get 4's analog signal.


Appreciate any insight!


----------



## Falcon_77

I have checked the VHF-Low analog channels on my CM4228 just to see what it can do for that band. It does a bit better on 2 than 4 and especially 5. However, the picture quality is abysmal compared to the VHF-High performance.


I would not call my 4228's performance on channel 4 as "watchable," but I'm at 51 miles and it's in my attic. If you want to add a 4228 now, you are probably better off getting a VHF/UHF combiner so that you can still use the VHF part of the 3016. Is the 3016 not getting it done on UHF?


The rated spec of the 3016 for Lo-VHF might be +1.2dB, but the 4228 is reported at -11dB at best (Channel 2) and it gets much worse from there.


You may want to look at *Using a UHF antenna for VHF* on this site:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## jk870

Great info, thanks!


The 3016 only receives 1 of the 3 digital UHF channels. I am looking to change to a CM 7777 preamp and noticed the UHF/VHF inputs, but frankly I hadn't been able to get to the 3016 to see how involved it would be to remove the UHF section.


----------



## xlr231

Is there anything I can do to boost daytime reception of stations about 60-70 miles away? The channel I am trying to get is Fox 28 in HD out of South Bend IN. When I am watching football during the day I only get about 1-2 (out of 10) bars of signal and frequent drop outs on my receiver's signal meter. At night I get 9-10 bars on the same channel.


I have a Channel Master Spartan 3 amp, I don't remember the exact model, but I think it is UHF only. I recently switched from a Radio Shack 40" 17 element UHF antenna to an Antennas Direct 91XG. My daytime signal stayed about the same but I get much better signal at night. With the old antenna I only got about 4-5 bars with occasional dropouts.


My amp only has a 300 ohm input so I am using an 75-300 ohm adapter from the antenna to the amp. Could that be hurting my signal strength? Do you think a better amp would help or is there nothing I can do because of the distance to the tower and atmospheric conditions?


Also should I run a separate ground wire for my antenna mast or is just running the coax through a grounding block ok?


----------



## DECdaze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *xlr231* /forum/post/11729167
> 
> 
> ... My amp only has a 300 ohm input so I am using an 75-300 ohm adapter from the antenna to the amp. Could that be hurting my signal strength? Do you think a better amp would help or is there nothing I can do because of the distance to the tower and atmospheric conditions? ... Also should I run a separate ground wire for my antenna mast or is just running the coax through a grounding block ok?



First things first. Yes, do ground both the antenna mast and the coax. If lightening strikes the mast, your house and not the coax would be the next path for it to reach ground.


Next, the 75-300 ohm balun (adapter) can cause signal loss. If you are using a Channel Master balun, I doubt it will be all that much. See:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html 
The Spartan 3 has a 23db gain on UHF, so should do fairly well.


However, a caution. UHF going over 50 miles, you probably will always contend with fading:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/g...yA.html#fading 
Plus, beyond 50 miles you are in the deepest fringe, and reception will always be a bit dicey:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/g...yA.html#fringe 
A Channel Master 4228 might help, as well as a Channel Master 7775 or 7777 pre-amplifier. But that's pretty much a complete overhaul.


----------



## w0en




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jk870* /forum/post/11728794
> 
> 
> Great info, thanks!
> 
> 
> The 3016 only receives 1 of the 3 digital UHF channels. I am looking to change to a CM 7777 preamp and noticed the UHF/VHF inputs, but frankly I hadn't been able to get to the 3016 to see how involved it would be to remove the UHF section.



The CM7777 should rolloff any weak UHF signal from the 3016 on it's own by taking it apart and moving the input switch to separate and plugging it into the VHF. No need to hack up the 3016. At least it has worked that way for me, YMMV.


My own experience with low VHF channels on the 4228 has been dismally snowy analog performance on 2,4,5 analog even with a CM7777 at 42 miles. 9 & 11 analog on VHF high were watchable.


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *xlr231* /forum/post/11729167
> 
> 
> My amp only has a 300 ohm input so I am using an 75-300 ohm adapter from the antenna to the amp. Could that be hurting my signal strength?



If you open up the plastic box where the coax goes in on the 91XG, you'll find a 75-300 ohm balun. Remove both your balun and that balun and run twin lead directly from the amp to the antenna, and you could get a dB or two.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jk870* /forum/post/11728794
> 
> 
> The 3016 only receives 1 of the 3 digital UHF channels. I am looking to change to a CM 7777 preamp and noticed the UHF/VHF inputs, but frankly I hadn't been able to get to the 3016 to see how involved it would be to remove the UHF section.



Are the UHF channels of interest further away than channel 4, noted at 33 miles above? If you can provide your ZIP code, it will help us make a more accurate assessment of your needs.


As for taking the UHF part off the 3016, it may not be necessary as I would expect the VHF input on the 7777 to filter it out. Perhaps someone else who has tried that can comment.


Judging from my 3020 test antenna, it shouldn't be too difficult to remove the UHF part, but it's a bigger pain when it's already mounted on the roof.


----------



## mglass1646

*quote from xlr231*: _Is there anything I can do to boost daytime reception of stations about 60-70 miles away? The channel I am trying to get is Fox 28 in HD out of South Bend IN. When I am watching football during the day I only get about 1-2 (out of 10) bars of signal and frequent drop outs on my receiver's signal meter. At night I get 9-10 bars on the same channel.

I have a Channel Master Spartan 3 amp, I don't remember the exact model, but I think it is UHF only. I recently switched from a Radio Shack 40" 17 element UHF antenna to an Antennas Direct 91XG. My daytime signal stayed about the same but I get much better signal at night. With the old antenna I only got about 4-5 bars with occasional dropouts._


I sometimes watch DTV from Terre Haute, about 77 miles away. I have found the same as you. It is hard to get a decent signal during the day, but no problem at night. I have two 91XGs stacked together at 35' AGL for TV DX. Most DTV stations within 50 miles are no problem if they have a decent amount of power. WSJV-DT only has 220kw which is 1/5 of the max allowed on UHF. Go to TVFool.com to find out what they think your reception should be.


Mike


----------



## reign80

So My tv set has a QAM tuner in it and it is picking up the HD version of these channel.

FOX, NBC, ABC and CBS. I am looking for a nice Antenna so that I could make these HD channel a little clearer and when I do buy this antenna do I plug it into the slot that as AIR instead of CABLE is that correct?


Thank You


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *reign80* /forum/post/11758694
> 
> 
> ...when I do buy this antenna do I plug it into the slot that as AIR instead of CABLE is that correct?



Yes, that is correct. Seems so obvious, doesn't it? Almost like it's too easy.


----------



## Rick0725




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jk870* /forum/post/11728184
> 
> 
> Hi guys,
> 
> 
> I have a CM 3016 mounted on a chimney, currently with a cheapo 10db mast-mounted amp I bought on Ebay, and roughly 75' of RG6 cable. It appears as though the VHF-Low gain is very low on this model (~1.2db), but I am getting perfect reception on analog channel 4 (I also have unobstructed LOS at 33 miles).
> 
> 
> My question is this: I completely understand the CM 4228 is not intended for VHF, particularly low VHF, but would the gain really be any worse than the 3016 on Ch 4? Is anyone having any luck at all with low-VHF on the 4228?
> 
> 
> After 2009, analog 4 moves to 7, where its digital channel is now, but my other channels are 13, 16, and 29. I'd like to move to the 4228 now to get the bulk of the other channels, as long as I might still be able to get 4's analog signal.
> 
> 
> Appreciate any insight!



Combine the cm 3016 for vhf with the cm4228 for uhf with a cm7777 preamp set to separate.


if you currently only have a single input preamp and you are happy with the performance, combine the 2 antennas with a cm0549 vhf/uhf combiner (.5db insertion loss, $10) and amplify the combined signal with the preamp. The length of coax between antennas is not an issue. you can run 2 separate coax inside and combine there if you want. therefore mounting the 2 antennas in separate locations outside is not an issue. Would not want to mount both antennas on the chimney and you need to allow at least 3.5" spacing between antennas.

http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm 


In 2009 you can remove the cm3016 if the hi band vhf of the cm4228 is satisfactory. My quess is the cm3016 hi band vhf should outperform the cm4228 hi band a tadd.


I would never use the cm4228 for ch 2-6 vhf...waste of time and money. You may also want to think about replacing your current preamp with the much better performing cm7777.


----------



## Neil L

I will echo what Rick said. I'm using a 4228 and can say it won't work for low VHF, except for channel 2 (but it is very,very weak on 2). It will pick up upper VHF, but it is weak there also, not as good as an antenna designed for those frequencies.


----------



## The Hound




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *reign80* /forum/post/11758694
> 
> 
> So My tv set has a QAM tuner in it and it is picking up the HD version of these channel.
> 
> FOX, NBC, ABC and CBS.
> 
> Thank You



You mean an ATSC tuner.

Right?


----------



## MorningHill

Problem - breakup of picture on digital channels. The channels I want are digital except for PBS which has some programs I want only on analog. Signal strength on digital channels ranges from around 33% on CBS to 88% on FOX and CW.

Location - 22 miles NE of Portland OR

Antenna Web shows all the transmitters I want are within 4 degrees of one another, 22 miles from here, and should be OK with a yellow coded antenna.


ABC ch 2.1 freq 43

CBS ch 6.1 freq 40

NBC ch 8.1 freq 46

PBS ch 10.1 freq 27

FOX ch 12.1 freq 30

CW ch 32.1 freq 33


History - Have been using an attic mounted CM Crossfire antenna since 1998. This did fine for the analog channels feeding an older NEC CRT analog TV, SD only. Now have a 2004 Sony DHG HDD500 DVR-Tuner feeding a 720P Panasonic Plasma monitor. The Panny is monitor only, no tuner. Have heard the Sony doesn't have a great tuner.


CW and FOX are stable, ABC, NBC, and PBS sometimes stable, CBS rarely stable. Solid Signal and Antennas Direct both recommended a DB8 style antenna. Looked at this at local RS but wont fit through attic access. Tried a CM 3021 (DB4) but this is much less effective than the Crossfire, so doubt the DB8 will do the trick.


I'm looking at the 91XG from Antennas Direct. Comments? Other suggestions?


----------



## wsuetholz

Hello, I'm in the Milwaukee, WI market around 10 miles from the various broadcasting antennas for the major stations here. In the 53051 zip code.


I'm using a Terk TV-55 antenna mounted to my chimney. It's at least 6' higher than the top of the chimney, and most stations come in fine without turning on the onboard preamp via the power injector. I have a Samsung TV with a built in HDTV tuner that seems to work ok for all the stations, there are issues with Channels 18 and 6 HD sometimes. I recently got a HDHomeRun network digital tuner, and it has the ability to monitor not just signal strength like the TV, but also two other levels, that indicate the noise on the signal being received.


For Channel 6 I get no signal strength at all on the device unless I turn on the preamp on the antenna. But when I turn on the preamp the signal quality drops 2 bars on all the other stations I think that means 20%.

Which makes a couple of the stations that were good become marginal, more signal dropout.


I looked at the maps of the TV stations antenna at www.2150.com and noticed that TV6 has a much more focused spread then the others, which is probably the problem.


I tried turning the antenna, and I found that I can't point it the direction I thought it should be pointing, but instead it is turned a bit north... Instead of pointing E-SE (mostly east) It's pointing E-NE.


Ok, now for the questions..

1) IS channel 6 going to beef up their transmitter, and have the broadcast be more widespread?

2) Would getting a ChannelMaster or Winegard preamp introduce less noise to the signal.. Keeping in mind that I'd rather not have to preamp, since the only station that is helped by the preamp is CH6, all the others are hurt by the preamp.


I hope it isn't a problem that I posted this message in the Milwaukee thread as well, I thought that this would be a better forum for the preamp questions.


Thank you,


----------



## new2hdtv07

I am debating if it is worth while for me to buy a pre-amp for my antenna(uhf/vhf combo) for hd signal reception. I have an attic antenna in a single story house on a hill, with about 50 or 60ft of RG6 that runs to a 4-way distribution amp in the basement purchased from the local home depot.


I am soliciting for any speculation as to whether I would notice an improvement by adding a preamp to my situation. I see some dropouts here and there, especially when recording CBS.


Here are my station locations (I'm not so worried about 39 since I get ABC on 20).

Code:


Code:


netwk   orient    miles  freq
NBC       134°        23.1     7
FOX       135°        22.2    19
ABC       143°        30.2    20
CBS       143°        24.7     2
PBS       343°         4.5    11
ABC       359°        28.5    39




If a pre-amp won't help me a lot over my distribution amp, then if I had a $50 budget to improve my signal, what would you recommend?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *new2hdtv07* /forum/post/11812278
> 
> 
> I am debating if it is worth while for me to buy a pre-amp for my antenna(uhf/vhf combo) for hd signal reception.
> 
> 
> CBS 143° 24.7 2
> 
> 
> If a pre-amp won't help me a lot over my distribution amp, then if I had a $50 budget to improve my signal, what would you recommend?



Your performance on channel 2 is limited by the indoor antenna. I'd spend 20 bucks on an eave mount and a mast. Antenna height helps more on channel 2 than you would expect.


If outdoor isn't an option, a bigger attic antenna might help.


----------



## mlmahon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *new2hdtv07* /forum/post/11812278
> 
> 
> I am debating if it is worth while for me to buy a pre-amp for my antenna(uhf/vhf combo) for hd signal reception. I have an attic antenna in a single story house on a hill, with about 50 or 60ft of RG6 that runs to a 4-way distribution amp in the basement purchased from the local home depot.
> 
> 
> I am soliciting for any speculation as to whether I would notice an improvement by adding a preamp to my situation. I see some dropouts here and there, especially when recording CBS.
> 
> 
> Here are my station locations (I'm not so worried about 39 since I get ABC on 20).
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> netwk   orient    miles  freq
> NBC       134°        23.1     7
> FOX       135°        22.2    19
> ABC       143°        30.2    20
> CBS       143°        24.7     2
> PBS       343°         4.5    11
> ABC       359°        28.5    39
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If a pre-amp won't help me a lot over my distribution amp, then if I had a $50 budget to improve my signal, what would you recommend?



it's always best to amplify the signal as close to the antenna as possible before any loss occurs. Amplifying after line loss does little good and increases noise.


I'd go for the antenna preamp.


----------



## new2hdtv07




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mlmahon* /forum/post/11813510
> 
> 
> it's always best to amplify the signal as close to the antenna as possible before any loss occurs. Amplifying after line loss does little good and increases noise.
> 
> 
> I'd go for the antenna preamp.



How many times can I split a pre-amped signal before needing a powered distribution? 4way, 8way?


I have the following setup:

Jack 1: CRT Tv + VCR

Jack 2: DFP Tv

Jack 3: DFP Tv + Computer tuner + FM amp

Jack 4: CRT Tv

Jack 5: Digital Tuner + Digital Tuner


I would think then I'd be advisable to use a passive 4way ( and a 2way to split jack 2 and 4), then use 2 and 3 way splitters as needed in the rooms. So worst case I'd expect about a 18db loss (from splitting and cable lengths) to the devices on Jack 3, is that correct? Is that enough to stay passive after a pre-amp?


Where would anyone recommend getting some good quality brand of passive splitters to look for? Maybe on ebay?


----------



## holl_ands

Preamp near antenna primarily determines overall sensitivity.

Sensitivity loss due to additional attenuation AFTER the Preamp

is reduced by the amount of gain in the Preamp.

So you should be able to tolerate quite a bit of loss in cable

and RF Splitters....so try it with ONLY the Preamp.


However, since you are very near PBS tower, the low gain,

very high overload W-G HDP-269 is your only option---

everything else will overload.


And you still might need a small amount of loss

(e.g. 3 db or 6 dB pad) between antenna and Preamp.


If you decide a distribution amp is needed, be sure to have

a significant amount of cable/RF Splitter loss between the

Preamp and the Distro Amp--otherwise you'll overload it's input.


=================================

Another alternative solution (presuming VHF is not a problem):

Use the existing antenna for VHF and use a separate, better UHF

antenna (e.g. CM-4228). Only use Preamp on UHF antenna and

use a VHF/UHF Combiner to feed the coax downlead, such as fol:
http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf 

BTW: The UVSJ will filter out VHF signals coming from CM4228,

leaving only the unamplified VHF from your existing antenna.


----------



## Rick0725

if overload is an issue you can take the edge off by installing the hdp269 preamp at the distribution point away from the antenna.


The example above amplifying uhf and passing vhf works wonders by the way.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mlmahon* /forum/post/11813510
> 
> 
> it's always best to amplify the signal as close to the antenna as possible before any loss occurs. Amplifying after line loss does little good and increases noise.
> 
> 
> I'd go for the antenna preamp.



The things that work well on UHF don't necessarily apply to channel 2.


The noise performance on channel 2 is limited by atmospheric, cosmic, and man made noise, not the noise figure of the receive system. The use of a preamp at the antenna won't do anything to reduce the three primary sources of noise on channel 2.


That's why receiving a stronger signal from the transmitter by the installation of a outdoor antenna or a larger antenna in the attic are the best options.


----------



## mlmahon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/11820197
> 
> 
> The things that work well on UHF don't necessarily apply to channel 2.
> 
> 
> The noise performance on channel 2 is limited by atmospheric, cosmic, and man made noise, not the noise figure of the receive system. The use of a preamp at the antenna won't do anything to reduce the three primary sources of noise on channel 2.
> 
> 
> That's why receiving a stronger signal from the transmitter by the installation of a outdoor antenna or a larger antenna in the attic are the best options.



I agree. My answer was for the system "as is."


----------



## new2hdtv07




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mlmahon* /forum/post/11820511
> 
> 
> I agree. My answer was for the system "as is."



So it sounds like it may not help me all that much to add a pre-amp. And if I do, I may have to say good-bye to PBS. If I do overload PBS, I won't be ruining any device, I'm just destroying the signal right?


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *new2hdtv07* /forum/post/11830806
> 
> 
> So it sounds like it may not help me all that much to add a pre-amp. And if I do, I may have to say good-bye to PBS. If I do overload PBS, I won't be ruining any device, I'm just destroying the signal right?



You probably won't damage equipment, but overloading on any signal can cause problems to all signals.


You may be able to add the preamp if you first reduce the offending signal's level with a filter of some sort. But that starts to get complicated.


----------



## Hemi345

My zip is 80521. I have taken screen caps of the antennaweb site below:

 

 


After reading most of this thread, I'm still confused on which antenna(s) I should get. Right now, my goal is to get analog channels clear but be ready to receive digital channels in a few months when I get a digital tuner for my PVR and the digital towers begin broadcasting full power. Denver Colorado's towers seem to be well behind the rest of the US with regards to broadcasting digital signals.


I need attic installation in my 2 story house as HOA prohibits outdoor antenna. The major channels I would like to receive are 4,7 & 22. It sounds like the CM 3016 w/ CM 7777 preamp might be the ticket, or is channel 7 high enough in VHF that the CM4228 could pick them up with the preamp?


Not much chatter about the Terrestrial Digital/Antenna Direct DB8. I'm leaning towards this one if this style antenna would be better as it looks like I could take the reflectors off to get it up into the attic and reassemble easier (32" max diag measurement attic access).


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Hemi345* /forum/post/11839919
> 
> 
> My zip is 80521. I have taken screen caps of the antennaweb site below:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After reading most of this thread, I'm still confused on which antenna(s) I should get. Right now, my goal is to get analog channels clear but be ready to receive digital channels in a few months when I get a digital tuner for my PVR and the digital towers begin broadcasting full power. Denver Colorado's towers seem to be well behind the rest of the US with regards to broadcasting digital signals.
> 
> 
> I need attic installation in my 2 story house as HOA prohibits outdoor antenna. The major channels I would like to receive are 4,7 & 22. It sounds like the CM 3016 w/ CM 7777 preamp might be the ticket, or is channel 7 high enough in VHF that the CM4228 could pick them up with the preamp?
> 
> 
> Not much chatter about the Terrestrial Digital/Antenna Direct DB8. I'm leaning towards this one if this style antenna would be better as it looks like I could take the reflectors off to get it up into the attic and reassemble easier (32" max diag measurement attic access).



If you are in a condo-type building then you don't own your roof and

HOA rules apply to COMMONLY OWNED areas only.


IF you OWN your house (including it's roof), HOA's are forbidden

by Federal Law to prevent you putting up a 10-foot high TV antenna:
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/consumerdish.html 
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html 


=================================================

CH7 is missing from your posted list, but I see that it is same location as CH2 & 4.


Why bother with CH4 from Denver, when CH5 (KGWN) is half the distance?

If you look at your location at www.tvfool.com , we can see that CH4 is (at least)

26 dB WEAKER than CH5, which cannot be suppressed by Front-To-Back-Ratio

of any available Lo-VHF band antenna.

[I trilaterated your position to 1/2-mile North of Post Office off Wakonda Drive.]


Other than CH5, 11 and 13, VHF channels (incl CH7) will be difficult,

even if you can use an outdoor antenna. CH11 and probably also CH13

should be receivable using CM4228--depending on how much loss

there is in your attic....


On the other hand, UHF CH22 should be easy....


Will a Preamp help??? Maybe, but the CM7777 will be overloaded by nearby,

strong signals, so you better try the low gain, very high overload W-G HDP-259.


=================================================

PS: I posted detailed info/photos on how to disassemble CM-4228 for attic use:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...s#post10612061 

It may or may not be sufficient for lo-VHF (CH2-6), and will have to be used

with a rotator to cover all directions.


FYI: I finally figured out I had to delete the "t-" preceeding the filename to see full size picture.

You should be aware of this for next time.....


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *new2hdtv07* /forum/post/11830806
> 
> 
> So it sounds like it may not help me all that much to add a pre-amp. And if I do, I may have to say good-bye to PBS. If I do overload PBS, I won't be ruining any device, I'm just destroying the signal right?



PBS may come through just fine---overload will generate

intermodulation noise that desensitizes some channels and not others.

The weakest channels are most at risk from overload


----------



## Hemi345

Thanks for the reply. I'll take this up with my HOA. I own the home.


You should have been able to click on the pics I posted.


What are the pros and cons of the 3016 style vs the 4228 ?


----------



## holl_ands

CM3016 is good for VHF and better than average for UHF--but can't mount on a rotator in most attics.

As far as combo VHF-UHF antennas go, it's about "average", but is a good choice for roof mount.


CM4228 is very poor for lo-band VHF (CH2-6), so-so for hi-band VHF (CH7-13) and excellent for UHF....

and fits on rotator in many attics.


----------



## dr.greghouse

I haven't been able to find the answer through searches and know some one here knows the answer.


If I have a signal strength of 50% vs. 100%; Does the 100% signal "get" more bit's per second vs. the 50% signal?


Say the


----------



## Tim Winders




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr.greghouse* /forum/post/11844439
> 
> 
> I haven't been able to find the answer through searches and know some one here knows the answer.
> 
> 
> If I have a signal strength of 50% vs. 100%; Does the 100% signal "get" more bit's per second vs. the 50% signal?
> 
> 
> Say the



No. Digital either works or it doesn't work. At 50% signal strength, it's likely you won't get any picture at all. If you do, you'll be subject to drop outs, pixellation, sound issues, etc.


----------



## dr.greghouse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tim Winders* /forum/post/11844467
> 
> 
> No. Digital either works or it doesn't work. At 50% signal strength, it's likely you won't get any picture at all. If you do, you'll be subject to drop outs, pixellation, sound issues, etc.



Okay. I thought it might work like Wi-Fi, where the signal strength determines your througput. So I should see either a perfect picture or a blank screen.


Thank You.


----------



## Tim Winders




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr.greghouse* /forum/post/11844574
> 
> 
> Okay. I thought it might work like Wi-Fi, where the signal strength determines your througput. So I should see either a perfect picture or a blank screen.
> 
> 
> Thank You.



Not quite. If the signal strength is low enough, you won't get any picture. But, it might be high enough where you will get a picture, then pixellation, then sound dropouts, then a good picture, then nothing, etc. I guess you could think of the symptms as similar to Wifi. It doesn't determine the bandwidth, but the signal stregth is a direct correlation to the quality of picture you'll receive. When it works, it's rock solid. When it doesn't the picture will freeze, have dropouts or just not be there at all.


But, it's not like analog, where if you have a bad picture, you'll hear static in the sound or see bad video. Witht digital, you get no sound, or audio dropouts and not picture, picture freezing or picture pixellation.


I'm repeating and ranting. Sorry. It's difficult to explain, but once you've experienced it, you'll understand.


----------



## jtbell

Also note that the "signal strength" indicators on digital TV receivers don't actually measure the amplitude of the signal that comes in from the antenna or signal source. It's more of a quality-level indicator, and isn't standardized. On one receiver, a particular signal might show 90%; on another receiver, the same signal might show 80%, or 70%, or something else.


My Sony DVR shows "signal strength" as a percentage, and I usually get dropouts when it falls below about 65%. My Samsung external receiver shows it as one to ten bars, and a signal that drops out on the Sony might show two or three bars on the Samsung. (and the Samsung can give me a usable picture down to one or two bars)


----------



## AntAltMike

It appears that the numerical value of signal strength % displayed by receivers varies inversely with the amount of bit error correction taking place, but as jtbell said, it isn't even standardized from one receiver to another.


Many years ago, back when DISH Network still used a 1-100% scale for its DBS signal strength measurements, someone was able to determine the exact "%" cutoff level at which a DISH receiver could no longer hold a "lock", and he somehow observed that it varied by a few percentage points based on what the FEC ratio was on that particular transponder. It might have been 38% for an FEC of 3/4 versus 34% for an FEC of 7/8. Something like that.


When DISH went to the oval DISH 500 antenna, they changed the scale to 0-125% just to make sure that the customer would see a "greater" signal strength number on every transponder and not browbeat the installation technician into either tweaking it forever or reinstalling the round dish antenna.


Very few participants in these forums will even be using a real field strength meter when peaking their antennas, and even if they did, it may not be a good indicator of signal quality, so as far as the signal strength numbers that your receiver produces are concerned, all you can really do is get them as high as you can, but you can't do much in the way of calculations with those numbers to guide you as far as alternative antenna choices or placements are concerned. Ours is a trial and error hobby, and those percentage numbers are useful in allowing us to develop the best signal we can, even if we cannot actually quantify any desirable characteristic of it.


----------



## lakerfan27

I just received my new HDTV and I was eager to check out my new tv so I hooked it up to a cheap rabbit ear and I was able to pick up quite a few HD channels.


Would I get a better result if I were to hook it up to a Zenith Silver Sensor?


Here's my AntennaWeb result:

*Antenna Type CallSign Channel Compass Miles From Freq Assign*yellow - uhf KABC-DT 7.1 318° 27.8 53

yellow - uhf KLCS-DT 58.1 318° 27.5 41

yellow - uhf KCET-DT 28.1 318° 27.5 59

yellow - uhf KFTR-DT 46.1 318° 27.8 29

yellow - uhf KAZA-DT 54.1 318° 27.8 47

yellow - uhf KJLA-DT 57.1 318° 27.8 49

yellow - uhf KCOP-DT 13.1 318° 27.9 66

yellow - uhf KNBC-DT 4.1 318° 27.7 36

yellow - uhf KTTV-DT 11.1 318° 27.6 65

yellow - uhf KMEX-DT 34.1 318° 27.8 35

yellow - uhf KPXN-DT 30.1 318° 26.8 38

yellow - uhf KRCA-DT 62.1 318° 26.8 68

yellow - uhf KXLA-DT 44.1 318° 27.8 51

yellow - uhf KSCI-DT 18.1 318° 26.8 61

yellow - uhf KOCE-DT 50.1 318° 27.8 48

yellow - uhf KDOC-DT 56.1 318° 27.8 32

yellow - uhf KVEA-DT 39 318° 26.8 39

yellow - uhf KTBN-DT 23.1 318° 27.5 23

yellow - uhf KCAL-DT 9.1 318° 27.8 43

yellow - uhf KCBS-DT 2.1 318° 28.3 60

yellow - uhf KTLA-DT 5.1 318° 27.8 31

yellow - uhf KWHY-DT22.1 318° 27.8 42

violet - uhf KVCR-DT 24.1 65° 32.1 26


----------



## holl_ands

You didn't say whether you received all of the stations coming from Mt. Wilson (yellow),

and whether you were experiencing dropouts on any of them (e.g. KTTV-DT and KCOP-DT).


----------



## Hemi345

Can someone explain how a DB-8 is considered a multi-directional antenna while a similar looking CM4228 is uni-directional? Is it because the reflectors are broken up on the DB-8?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Hemi345* /forum/post/11857548
> 
> 
> Can someone explain how a DB-8 is considered a multi-directional antenna while a similar looking CM4228 is uni-directional? Is it because the reflectors are broken up on the DB-8?



They are BOTH unidirectional....if you see anything to the contrary, it's a misprint.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler

I'm still waiting to find out how an antenna shaped like a frisbee standing on edge can be omnidirectional. Did anyone verify that?


----------



## tsheley

I am new to this OTA antenna stuff so please bare with me. I live in Holmen WI and was wondering if anybody has any suggestions in an antenna to pull in the following channels.

We live in a river valley and are surrounded by bluffs...


yellow - uhf WXOW 19 ABC LA CROSSE WI 204° 11.1

yellow - uhf WXOW-DT 19.1 ABC LA CROSSE WI 204° 11.1

yellow - uhf WLAX 25 FOX LA CROSSE WI 205° 11.4

yellow - uhf WHLA 31 PBS LA CROSSE WI 204° 11.2

yellow - uhf WHLA-DT 31.1 PBS LA CROSSE WI 204° 11.2

yellow - vhf WKBT 8 CBS LA CROSSE WI 342° 9.9

yellow - uhf WKBT-DT 8.1 CBS LA CROSSE WI 342° 9.9

green - uhf KQEG-CA 23 IND LA CRESCENT MN 184° 14.2

violet - uhf WLAX-DT 25.1 FOX LA CROSSE WI 205° 11.4

violet - vhf WEAU 13 NBC EAU CLAIRE WI 18° 51.4


----------



## lovebohn




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tsheley* /forum/post/11865463
> 
> 
> I am new to this OTA antenna stuff so please bare with me. I live in Holmen WI and was wondering if anybody has any suggestions in an antenna to pull in the following channels.
> 
> We live in a river valley and are surrounded by bluffs...




tsheley,


I would also look over in the Wausau/La Crosse tread for some first hand experience with the hills and bluffs in your area.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post11815279


----------



## tsheley

Thanks!


----------



## jkseger

Hi all,


I'm in Elmhurst, IL about 16-18 miles from the Sears Tower and Hancock Buildings where all of the broadcast antennas are located. I need to pick up on OTS HD antenna and was wondering if anyone would have any suggestions for me, as I need all the help I can get.


I'd prefer to mount the antenna in my attic which is about 25 feet from ground level and faces East toward the towers. I'd also like to be able to pick up CBS which is on VHF but can do without if necessary. I will also need to split the signal into multiple (~4) DirecTV receivers so an amplifier might be necessary.


FYI, I think the low voltage guy our builder used tried installing a Winegard 7210 in the attic space but it was too big. I'm trying to become more knowledgable so I can converse with him better (i.e. make sure I get the right antenna).


If you need any other info, please let me know.


Thanks in advance.


John


----------



## wirelong

I am 12 miles from station antennas, I have trees [100 yards] and 2 hills [40 feet higher 100 yards away][100 feet higher .5miles away] The stations will be in the 20-50 range when they go all digital. Should I get the CM 4228 or the 91xg.


----------



## holl_ands

You didn't cut/paste results from www.antennaweb.org and/or www.tvfool.com 


You also didn't provide your location, preferably zipcode and nearest cross streets.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/11861879
> 
> 
> I'm still waiting to find out how an antenna shaped like a frisbee standing on edge can be omnidirectional. Did anyone verify that?



Only if you spin the frisbee really, really fast....


----------



## jkseger

Sorry about that.


I live in Elmhurst - 60126, just SE from the corner of York and St Charles Rds.


Here's my antennaweb pasting.


* yellow - uhf WYCC-DT 20.1 PBS CHICAGO IL 88° 16.0 21

* yellow - uhf WTTW-DT 11.1 PBS CHICAGO IL 93° 15.3 47

* yellow - uhf WPWR-DT 50.1 MNT GARY IN 93° 15.3 51

* yellow - uhf WLS-DT 7.1 ABC CHICAGO IL 93° 15.3 52

* yellow - uhf WSNS-DT 44.1 TEL CHICAGO IL 93° 15.3 45

* yellow - uhf WMAQ-DT 5.1 NBC CHICAGO IL 93° 15.3 29

* yellow - uhf WJYS-DT 62.1 REL HAMMOND IN 93° 15.3 36

* yellow - uhf WGBO-DT 66.1 UNI JOLIET IL 88° 16.0 53

* yellow - uhf WGN-DT 9.1 CW CHICAGO IL 93° 15.3 19

* yellow - uhf WCIU-DT 26.1 IND CHICAGO IL 93° 15.3 27

* yellow - uhf WCPX-DT 38.1 ION CHICAGO IL 93° 15.3 43

* yellow - uhf WXFT-DT 60.1 TFA AURORA IL 93° 15.3 59

* yellow - uhf WFLD-DT 32.1 FOX CHICAGO IL 93° 15.3 31

* green - vhf WBBM-DT 2.1 CBS CHICAGO IL 88° 16.0 3


Thanks,


John


----------



## wirelong

Mainly I am interested in the hill and tree problem. Also which style of antenna would be better for the 20-50 channel range.


----------



## Hemi345




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/11861064
> 
> 
> They are BOTH unidirectional....if you see anything to the contrary, it's a misprint.


 http://www.terrestrial-digital.com/m...rectional.html


----------



## holl_ands

If you look at the antenna azimuthal gain curves, you'll see these are ALL unidirectional:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 

Note that at 90-degrees (sides) and 180-degrees (rear), the antenna has lost about 20 dB gain on most UHF channels.


Also note that Antennas-Direct is too proud to post these kind of detailed specifications for their products....


----------



## Joshua2639




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/9690610
> 
> 
> If you want to get the low VHF analog stations, the Winegard conventional VHF/UHF antennas get more recommendations here than the Channel Master series. Take a look at the Winegard 7078P. But you are only 18 miles from stations all in the same direction, I would not be surprised if a Silver Sensor in the attic worked for the UHF digital stations.




This last Febuary It was suggested that I get a Winegard 7078p. I am just now ordering it. I got reply from Warren Electronincs that it is not in stock and nt being made any more. Did winegard replace this modle or is there some esle I should consider? I am looking for something in the $100 price range (or less if it will work well).


Here is my stats again (from Feb, I hope these didnt change too). I would like to put this in my attic, unless it is small enough/ sturdy enough to go on roof.
* yellow - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 134° 18.0 32

yellow - uhf WUCW 23 CW MINNEAPOLIS MN 134° 18.0 23

yellow - vhf KARE 11 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 134° 18.0 11

* yellow - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 134° 18.0 35

yellow - uhf WFTC 29 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 133° 18.8 29

* yellow - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 133° 18.8 21

yellow - uhf KSTC 45 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN 134° 18.0 45

* yellow - uhf KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN 134° 18.0 44

* yellow - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL MN 134° 18.0 50

* yellow - uhf KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 133° 18.8 34

* yellow - uhf KTCI-DT 17.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 133° 18.8 16

yellow - uhf KPXM 41 i ST. CLOUD MN 300° 17.7 41

* yellow - uhf KPXM-DT 41.1 i ST. CLOUD MN 300° 17.7 40

yellow - vhf KMSP 9 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 133° 18.8 9

* yellow - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 133° 18.8 26

green - uhf KTCI 17 PBS ST. PAUL MN 133° 18.8 17

green - vhf KTCA 2 PBS ST. PAUL MN 133° 18.8 2

green - vhf KSTP 5 ABC ST. PAUL MN 134° 18.0 5

green - vhf WCCO 4 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 134° 18.0 4

lt green - uhf WDMI-LP 62 DAY MINNEAPOLIS MN 161° 19.9 62

lt green - uhf K58BS 58 TBN MINNEAPOLIS MN 161° 19.9 58

* red - uhf WUCW-DT 23.1 CW MINNEAPOLIS MN 134° 18.0 22


Thanks again for the help,


Josh


----------



## Jesse31

Do a google search if you want that antenna...there are several places still selling it.


----------



## Rick0725

it is a good thing you did not purchase the 7078p...the antenna stinks actually.


the next size up is the hd7080p. the hd 7082p is only 18" longer, a few dollars more and a much better balanced performer.


for example

hd 7080p
http://www.summitsource.com/advanced...7080p&x=11&y=9 



hd 7082p
http://www.summitsource.com/advanced...8d6598&x=8&y=8


----------



## HeavyC

I had a Channel Master 3010 Stealth Antenna (I know, not the best) installed a few years back when I had VOOM as my provider. The Antenna worked perfectly picking up all my local stations. VOOM went under, and I went with cable for a few years. Now, I'm back with Dish Network.

Stealth Antenna 


I had them hook the antenna back up, and everything appeared to be fine, but I'm no longer pulling in WEEK-DT (NBC in Peoria/Bloomington Illinois). This is by far the strongest signal being broadcast in the area and the last one I expected to have problems with.


If you look at the attached image, you'll see WMBD-DT at 195 degrees, WTVP-DT at 201 degrees, and WHOI-DT at 207 degrees. All of those are very strong signals consistently between the high 70's and high 90's. All of them are rock solid. Right in the middle is WEEK-DT at 197 degrees. I can't for the life of me figure out why it's not coming in.











I've attached the antenna directly to my TV's tuner and it can't find it. I've attached the antenna directly to the Dish Network 622 and a 211 and neither can find it. If I pull up the diagnostic screen on the 622 and try to manually lock on to WEEK-DT it shows 0 signal. I've also called WEEK-DT and confirmed they are in fact broadcasting and currently not experiencing issues.


The Dish Installer said the antenna could be damaged and that I might need to replace it. That's fine, but what I fail to see is what can be damaged that would cause the one specific channel to not come in, especially when all the others I receive without issue. Any suggestions would be appreciated. My fear is that I'll go to the expense of swapping out the antenna only to have overlooked something else.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HeavyC* /forum/post/11912329
> 
> 
> I had a Channel Master 3010 Stealth Antenna (I know, not the best) installed a few years back when I had VOOM as my provider. The Antenna worked perfectly picking up all my local stations.



I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the Voom receiver was a better performer than either of the ones that you have now. The issue could be the image of analog channel 43, WYZZ on an image frequency of channel 57. A TV channel 14 channels higher or lower is referred to as a taboo channel because of the image problem.


The question is how to prove or resolve the problem. If you still have your VOOM receiver, dust it off and give it a try. If not, a filter that passes channel 57 or one that notches channel 43 could be used to troubleshoot the interference. (If it is interference.)


----------



## HeavyC

So, if I drop in a filter that removes WYZZ (Analog 43), that might allow the NBC to come through? That's very interesting. Wanted to make sure I understand what you are saying.


----------



## F355FTS

I have a Samsung HLS6187w and have only ever used a lower end Terk antenna, It is a small powered loop one. I have been having some problems picking up PBS and ch15 so i did some research and everyone seems to like the new Terk indoor directional.


I bought it brought it home hooked it up and tried it out with out the power first. Picked up PBS and ch 15. I was like great up to 3 or 4 bars on my signal strength indicator.


So i powered it on thinking here we go. And i loose PBS and 15 and a few bars on my 3,6, and 7.


What gives?


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *F355FTS* /forum/post/11922809
> 
> 
> What gives?



I'd say you don't need an amplified antenna at all. Looks like very strong signals are overloading the amp and causing reception problems.


----------



## DM2006RI

I had a question for the experts: I'm using a Channel Master CM 4228 with a Titan CM 7777 pre-amp. I go from the pre-amp (powered unit) and split the signal to my two TV sets, results are good but I'm wondering if I added an amplifier (like the CM 3043) and got rid of the splitter that I would see any additional benefits on "fringe" stations, which come in intermittently.


Is there any benefit from using an amp in conjunction with a pre-amp in this instance?


----------



## Rick0725

adding a distribution amp is not suggested.


in most cases the cm7777 has enough gain to handle signal and the losses from normal splitting . In the general sense, if there is a very long run in your set up say over hundred feet, a distribution amp of appropriate gain can compensate for losses associated in the cable on that run.


in regards to actual signal...it is best to improve the receiving antenna in those cases. adding the distribution amp can make matters worse.


----------



## MeowMeow

Overload. When you start seeing the nice yellows and reds on antennaweb, you need to start small and work your way up to something bigger and higher.


At your distance I would try a two bowtie antenna, and then maybe go up to a four bowtie (CM 4221) if that doesn't work. Or try the Silver Sensor.


Nothing amplified, powered, etc.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Are there any recommended easy mods or tweaks to the xg91?


----------



## mamaduce




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *T-Techster* /forum/post/11270464
> 
> 
> A pre-amp will definitely help. Since you're in Killeen, that's close enough to pick up the Austin HD signals (unless your southern line of sight is obstructed). I read some other posts about reception being good in the 80 mile range, but pre-amp was needed.
> 
> 
> All the Austin HD signals are currently on UHF. But in 2009 when the analog is gone, KTBC (FOX) will move the digital signal over to VHF Ch. 7.
> 
> 
> So it's good that you got a VHF/UHF antenna.



Directv finally came out and replaced my dish and removed most of the splitter and diplexers. It took a while but finally got a tech who would do a attic drop to run 2 lines direct from the antenna to my two receivers. All my local and Austin local came in fine on my hd dvr receiver, but on the hd receiver my local and austin pbs channels flash in and out. All my other local and austin channels come in just fine. They come in for about 4 or 5 seconds and go out over and over again. Any suggestions


----------



## JJPP

I live in Howell, MI 48843 near Pickney and I was just wondering if any one has used the Winegard MS 2000 and how well it works?


----------



## mx148

Hello, Im new to the site and looking for info on getting OTA chanels. Id like to pick you brains to get the best equipment I can the first time around. Ive got a blank slate here. Just a older tv and a 38 foot tower. I'm located in Fremont OH 43420. Any advice on hardware would be awesome.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mx148* /forum/post/11986039
> 
> 
> Hello, Im new to the site and looking for info on getting OTA chanels. Id like to pick you brains to get the best equipment I can the first time around. Ive got a blank slate here. Just a older tv and a 38 foot tower. I'm located in Fremont OH 43420. Any advice on hardware would be awesome.



CM 4228 8bay with maybe a full range preamp.Detroit's a bit far to be reliable at 77mi.Probably need a rotor too.


----------



## mphtrilogy

Hi,


I am enjoying OTA signals with my current Radio Shack Iindoor/Outdoor Antenna, but realize I need something that is more stable for my Tivo HD, I get reception issues in bad weather and wind.


Can someone please suggest a reasonable (


----------



## AntAltMike

What else is there for forums that discuss local broadcast HDTV reception? I presently check out threads on this subject here and at the satellite forums: DBSForums, DBS Talk, DishRetailer, Transmitter News and SatGuys, but I was wondering if I am missing a national forum audience anywhere else.


----------



## The Hound

Your killing me





















............


----------



## champion6

I'm a noob with HD... just got my first HDTV and also switched from analog cable to Dish Network. Dish gives me SD locals, so I'm trying to find an antenna to pick up HD locals. I'm getting tired of the trial-and-error method I've used so far.


I currently have a Radio Shack 15-1892 amplified interior antenna, connected to the TV Antenna In on my ViP 722 DVR. I can't get a consistent strong signal from C & G and I can't find D at all. I can't find F, but it isn't important to me at all.

Zip Code = 61873

A yellow - uhf WICD-DT 15.1 ABC CHAMPAIGN IL 119° 6.8 41

B yellow - uhf WCCU-DT 27.1 FOX URBANA IL 25° 14.9 26

C red - vhf WILL-DT 12.1 PBS URBANA IL 263° 34.4 9

D blue - uhf WBUI-DT 23.1 CW DECATUR IL 258° 45.9 22

E blue - uhf WCIA-DT 3.1 CBS CHAMPAIGN IL 271° 22.3 48

F violet - uhf WEIU-DT 51.1 PBS CHARLESTON IL 204° 40.5 50

G violet - uhf WAND-DT 17.1 NBC DECATUR IL 257° 44.0 18


I can install an outdoor antenna in my attic - framed ranch with fiberglass shingles. There are no tall trees and the terrain is flat forever.


Obviously the most distant sources are to the west. The towers to the northeast and southeast are close to me.


I would appreciate your advice.


Mike


----------



## shadowcaster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/11889410
> 
> 
> it is a good thing you did not purchase the 7078p...the antenna stinks actually.
> 
> 
> the next size up is the hd7080p. the hd 7082p is only 18" longer, a few dollars more and a much better balanced performer.
> 
> 
> for example
> 
> hd 7080p
> http://www.summitsource.com/advanced...7080p&x=11&y=9
> 
> 
> hd 7082p
> http://www.summitsource.com/advanced...8d6598&x=8&y=8



Rick, the current pricing on your link for the 7080 looks like it's been reduced to where it is very attractive vs the 7082.


For some reason antennaweb tonight is not listing any of the NYC digital channels for my location (it did yesterday)

Any idea why this is happennning ? Do their ch results change w/reception conditions ?


BTW, I'm 32 mi from NYC network transmitters, on LI, north shore, 220' asl. Is the Winegard 7080p a good choice for me. (35-60mi rated)


----------



## Rick0725




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shadowcaster* /forum/post/12053671
> 
> 
> Rick, the current pricing on your link for the 7080 looks like it's been reduced to where it is very attractive vs the 7082.
> 
> 
> For some reason antennaweb tonight is not listing any of the NYC digital channels for my location (it did yesterday)
> 
> Any idea why this is happennning ? Do their ch results change w/reception conditions ?
> 
> 
> BTW, I'm 32 mi from NYC network transmitters, on LI, north shore, 220' asl. Is the Winegard 7080p a good choice for me. (35-60mi rated)



do not go by those ratings. for 32 miles purchase the hd7082p. do not consider the hd7080p


I know the area and which antenna is a better match. A cousin has a satellite home theater business on the island and know what performs.


for a preamp use a winegard hdp269 if you need one.


----------



## shadowcaster

Thanks Rick !


I Googled the preamp and saw your thread on the HiDef forum, from last May. Good background.

BTW, I do have tall trees, so I probably do need the preamp.

_*Edit >>*_For those interested : Click Here


----------



## Dan Kolton

Rick0725,

I'm within 5 miles of most towers, but I'm using a CM 4221 in the attic. It's fine in calm weather (after much trial and error in location), but it goes nuts on both HD and analogue when it is windy. I'm surrounded by very tall trees. Any chance that the Winegard ADP=269 would help?


----------



## lemmalone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/12032805
> 
> 
> What else is there for forums that discuss local broadcast HDTV reception? I presently check out threads on this subject here and at the satellite forums: DBSForums, DBS Talk, DishRetailer, Transmitter News and SatGuys, but I was wondering if I am missing a national forum audience anywhere else.



Highdefforum--a very good source of information.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dan Kolton* /forum/post/12072700
> 
> 
> Rick0725,
> 
> I'm within 5 miles of most towers, but I'm using a CM 4221 in the attic. It's fine in calm weather (after much trial and error in location), but it goes nuts on both HD and analogue when it is windy. I'm surrounded by very tall trees. Any chance that the Winegard ADP=269 would help?



Unlikely. Your problem is multipath, not a weak signal. Attic installs can make multipath worse.


Can you mount that 4221 outside?


----------



## Dan Kolton

No! The information on the link implied that this pre-amp might be particularly immune to overload and might help with trees.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dan Kolton* /forum/post/12079990
> 
> 
> No! The information on the link implied that this pre-amp might be particularly immune to overload and might help with trees.



Amplifying multipath does not solve anything.


If you had a weak signal caused by tree loss, then the amp would help. You are too close to the towers to need a preamp.


What prevents you from mounting the antenna outdoors?


----------



## Dan Kolton

1) I've tried it jury rigged outdoors with no significant improvement.

2) I ain't goin' through that hassle!


----------



## mkjnovak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *champion6* /forum/post/12047094
> 
> 
> I'm a noob with HD...have a Radio Shack 15-1892 amplified interior antenna...I can't get a consistent strong signal from C & G and I can't find D at all. I can't find F, but it isn't important to me at all.
> 
> Zip Code = 61873
> 
> A yellow - uhf WICD-DT 15.1 ABC CHAMPAIGN IL 119° 6.8 41
> 
> B yellow - uhf WCCU-DT 27.1 FOX URBANA IL 25° 14.9 26
> 
> C red - vhf WILL-DT 12.1 PBS URBANA IL 263° 34.4 9
> 
> D blue - uhf WBUI-DT 23.1 CW DECATUR IL 258° 45.9 22
> 
> E blue - uhf WCIA-DT 3.1 CBS CHAMPAIGN IL 271° 22.3 48
> 
> F violet - uhf WEIU-DT 51.1 PBS CHARLESTON IL 204° 40.5 50
> 
> G violet - uhf WAND-DT 17.1 NBC DECATUR IL 257° 44.0 18



I'm in Urbana, and the Decatur stations are tough for me at 35 miles; I imagine 45 miles will make it near impossible without serious height on an outdoor antenna.


BTW there is a CU/Decatur/Springfield specific forum .


Good luck,

Mike


----------



## DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR

Hi all, I'm back, if anyone here happens to remember my posts from 2 years ago -- started with the big Radio Shack VHF/UHF antenna (VU-160XR) in the attic, and after moving it outside and getting the CM 7777 pre-amp, it ended up performing as well as the 91XG in my situation.







It's been great since then







, but we will finally be moving this month, and I wanted to ask for advice about setting up an antenna at the new place.


It will be about 10 miles closer, and TV Fool (reports attached) shows about 25dB stronger signals. Should I take the current setup over there, or would it be risking signal overload? (I have no idea.) Use the antenna without amp? Get a new, smaller antenna and use the 7777? For digital, UHF-only is fine of course, though I would like to get analog KETC-9/PBS until the shutoff for the time signal.







TV Fool shows its analog strength as -87 here, -72 there...


My signal levels here using the DirecTV H10 tuner are generally as follows, best to worst:


WRBU-46 (90%) -- This is the ONE that would never disappear back when tweaking things









KTVI-2 (90%)

KSDK-5 (90%)

KMOV-4 (80-90%)

KDNL-30 (80%)

KPLR-11 (70-80%)

KETC-9 (50-70%)


Those 7 network channels are the ones I care about. There are some trees behind the house across the street, if they might affect signals at all? You can see in the attached picture; just a narrow line that runs for 1000+ ft at exactly 125 degrees (or a fraction more). I think the location I have in mind would just clear that 125 "line" to the left (e.g. KTVI-2 would go through the trees most, and KETC-9 would almost clear to the right).


Thoughts, advice? Just wondering WHAT the signal level differences will mean in practice.







Thanks!


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dan Kolton* /forum/post/12072700
> 
> 
> Rick0725,
> 
> I'm within 5 miles of most towers, but I'm using a CM 4221 in the attic. It's fine in calm weather (after much trial and error in location), but it goes nuts on both HD and analogue when it is windy. I'm surrounded by very tall trees. Any chance that the Winegard ADP=269 would help?



I, too, am 5 miles from most of the Indy towers and six years ago when I bought my first HDTV setup, I installed a CM 4221 outdoors @ about 25 feet. Reception from most of the DTVs was very good except for one, which I couldn't receive at all. I then figured it was a multipath issue, so I purchased the CM 4228. As soon as I replaced the 4221 with the 4228 outdoors in the same place, my reception of that one DTV was fine. I later read an article that mentioned the 4221 is not very good at taming multipath due to its rather wide beamwidth. Narrow the beamwidth, like with the CM 4228 or the Antennas Direct 91XG, and the multipath isssue should be much better. Both of these antennas have worked better at my location. A rotor is almost a requirement though because aiming the antenna to maximize the main signal and to minimize the multipath signals is CRITICAL.


I've experimented with that Winegard preamp and it can help boost the signal through long coax runs but it won't tame the multipath issues as noted by Tower Guy.


BTW, I've experimented a lot with antennas in my attic but I've never had much success. It always seemed that multipath was enhanced and that it was almost impossible to find that one sweet spot to receive ALL the local stations.


Steve


----------



## Dan Kolton

Thanks, Steve. Worth some thought on my part. Use of a rotator precludes programmed recording from several different channels, so that's a problem.


----------



## iw84no1

This is a really big thread, not enough time to look through it all.

What's the best antenna for reception of hd channels? I hear the Zenith silver sensor is up there. Also, could this antenna be mounted outside or does it always have to be adjusted?

Right now, I have the old skool antenna, and I can only pick up 5 HD channels. We tried adjusting it, was able to get 2 others, but then lost 2 I had. I think that the antenna is not capable of picking them up.

Is adjustment of this antenna similar to satellite dishes, in the sense of, they have a narrow band in which you point at to pick up the signal? I'm on the east side of Toronto, Ont., and we are pointing our antenna right now at the CN Tower, but no improvement.


----------



## The Hound

Try looking HERE for some local help.


----------



## shadowcaster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR* /forum/post/12119157
> 
> 
> *There are some trees behind the house across the street, if they might affect signals at all?* You can see in the attached picture; just a narrow line that runs for 1000+ ft at exactly 125 degrees (or a fraction more). I think the location I have in mind would just clear that 125 "line" to the left (e.g. KTVI-2 would go through the trees most, and KETC-9 would almost clear to the right).
> 
> 
> Thoughts, advice? Just wondering WHAT the signal level differences will mean in practice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!



OMG Larry, you call those trees ? Here's trees !!


I'm 43 mi from NYC and can receive all network HD's except NBC. 22 yr old Winegard antenna w/a Radio Shack 11db amp.

Signal strenght is so, so. I'm going to upgrade to a new ant w/a winegard HDP-269 pre amp.

I can't see your trees being any kind of a problem whatsoever, or needing an amp. Try the ant first and see what kind of a signal you get.


First shot of the ant looking from the deck. The next three taken on the roof. Center, then left, then right views.


----------



## Dan Kolton

Looks very much like my house, except I'm lots closer to the towers. On a windy day with leaves on the trees, you can just forget about watching digital broadcasts. Don't know what I'll do after analogue is dropped.


----------



## t6sam

I would appreciate any input on antenna selection for the following application:


Attic installation in a two story house located in Elmhurst IL (suburb of Chicago). House is located 96 degrees (to broadcast towers) and 16.0 miles. I would like to be capable of watching WBBM CH2. I have 80 feet of RG-6 quad shield cable strung from the TV to the attic. Attic is large so antenna size/price is not a concern but I don't want to install it outside.


Thanks very much for your help,

Sam


----------



## aktick

Looking for an antenna for OTA HD that will connect to multiple DirecTV receivers. It will most likely be placed in the attic. Here's the antennaweb.org info for the location...what specific antenna(s) would you recommend trying? Thanks a lot.


----------



## dj4monie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *aktick* /forum/post/12216900
> 
> 
> Looking for an antenna for OTA HD that will connect to multiple DirecTV receivers. It will most likely be placed in the attic. Here's the antennaweb.org info for the location...what specific antenna(s) would you recommend trying? Thanks a lot.



I am interested in this as well, I want to add another D*TV tuner to my MCE.


----------



## Mister B

As no one in your area is jumping in here with advice, I will offer mine although I live in Texas. You have evidently heard how hard WBBM is to receive, the good news is that after February 2009 they will be moving from actual channel 3 to 11. Also, your WLS will move from channel 52 back down to 7. You will need to decide if you want to just wait until 2009 to get WBBM or try for it now.

I like Winegard antennas and have a lot of experience with them so will discuss only them. Channel Master and Antennas Direct make good antennas and Radio Shack is convenient and for some applications their medium quality and limited selection will work just fine.

If you want to try for WBBM now, I would suggest the Winegard HD-5030. It is for channels 2-13 and has better specs than even the YA-6260 which is only for channels 2-6. It is good that you say size is not a problem as it is 119 inches long. The HD-5030 would then serve your needs after 2009 for channels 7 and 11 although the longer rods would no longer be in use for the lower channels. This could be coupled with the HD-4400 for all of your other channels in the UHF band (14-59). You can get a UHF/VHF coupler on-line or at Radio Shack.

If you would rather wait on WBBM, then the YA-1713 is an excellent antenna for channels 7-13 and again couple it with the HD-4400.

Finally, if you would prefer the convenience of one antenna that does it all the HD-7084P has just as good of specs, but does come in at 131 inches.

I hope this information can get you started in choosing an antenna.


----------



## Fishman1

Hello All,

Noob to this forum and to OTA HD.

Pardon my ignorance, but am looking to receive OTA HD on a non(semi)obstructed (max)110mi shot.I am not vertically challenged so a Rohn tower is not a problem. What would be recommendations as to type, quantity, elevation, and configuration for (semi)consistant reception on this long of a shot? I'm ok with techno speak cuz I was Cable/Antenna EI man in the USAF, but it's been a lonnnnngggg time ago. Sorry, I haven't had time to read 106 pages of messages.....


Fish

South Texas

right between BFE and MFN..


----------



## shadowcaster

wow ! 110 mi is quite a distance. I wouldn't think it's possible but you can

check on TVfool's web site to see if it's feasible.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Fishman1* /forum/post/12224632
> 
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> Noob to this forum and to OTA HD.
> 
> Pardon my ignorance, but am looking to receive OTA HD on a non(semi)obstructed (max)110mi shot.I am not vertically challenged so a Rohn tower is not a problem. What would be recommendations as to type, quantity, elevation, and configuration for (semi)consistant reception on this long of a shot? I'm ok with techno speak cuz I was Cable/Antenna EI man in the USAF, but it's been a lonnnnngggg time ago.



I agree, check tvfool.com with your exact location and projected antenna height to see what stations are within reach. If you want some advice on antenna selection, post your zip code so we can see what stations are within that 110 mile range. 110 miles puts the broadcast towers well below the horizon in just about all circumstances, so it is serious deep fringe range. It might work, might work only at night, only in the right weather, or not at all.


----------



## Fishman1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/12227035
> 
> 
> I agree, check tvfool.com with your exact location and projected antenna height to see what stations are within reach. If you want some advice on antenna selection, post your zip code so we can see what stations are within that 110 mile range. 110 miles puts the broadcast towers well below the horizon in just about all circumstances, so it is serious deep fringe range. It might work, might work only at night, only in the right weather, or not at all.




Excellent site!


A lot more digital stations in Corpus Christi than previously listed on Antennaweb, and San Antonio's are closer than expected....


I DL'd the Google Earth kmz files for San Antonio and Corpus Christi and the color graphics are off in both SA is centered on Austin and CC is on Victoria. Wonder if it's just a coordinate issue? I've got the newest version.....


Ok, here's the pix..


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *aktick* /forum/post/12216900
> 
> 
> Looking for an antenna for OTA HD that will connect to multiple DirecTV receivers. It will most likely be placed in the attic. Here's the antennaweb.org info for the location...what specific antenna(s) would you recommend trying? Thanks a lot.



A Channel Master CM 4221 4bay bowtie antenna should work well. It is small enough for attic installation and not expensive.


Many of your stations are in opposite directions. To make the CM 4221 bi-directional, try removing the wire screen on the back, if you can't find a good direction to pick up all the stations.


If you connect to several TVs, you _may_ need a good preamp. The CM 7777 is a good one. But amps can overload the signal, which can make digital reception worse. So don't add one unless you find your signal strength is too low.


----------



## shadowcaster

Rick0725 (other commenters welcome as well, of course)


You previously recommended the WG 7082 for my location (just north of exit 50 LIE)


I'm thinking that if all stations are going to be digital in '09, does it make sense to replace my existing WG yagi (pics in post #6330 on the previous pg) with another one (note the trees) ?

I'm really only interested in the HD digital ch at this point anyway.

Plus the 7082 shows a UHF range of ~30 mi, while tvfool shows I'm 44 mi from the NYC transmitters (chart below)


Would I be better off with a multi bay(8) UHF ant like the Winegard 8800 39 element and Channel Master 4228 32 element that range up to 60 mi?.

If so, which one is better, or is it a toss up ? Thanks!


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Fishman1* /forum/post/12228232
> 
> 
> A lot more digital stations in Corpus Christi than previously listed on Antennaweb, and San Antonio's are closer than expected....
> 
> 
> I DL'd the Google Earth kmz files for San Antonio and Corpus Christi and the color graphics are off in both SA is centered on Austin and CC is on Victoria. Wonder if it's just a coordinate issue? I've got the newest version.....



The trick with antennaweb to get a more complete list of stations is to enter a high antenna height under the options link. You may not get those stations, but entering 500' or something higher is useful just to see what is out there. Antennaweb is conservative on digital reception. One caveat with tvfool.com is that the list is based on the FCC database which has low power digital station assignments, but most of these won't be on the air until the station does a digital flash cut conversion and shuts down the analog signal.


----------



## shadowcaster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/12238933
> 
> 
> you mentioned that the reception is just ok on uhf from your place with your current antenna so I would avoid the combos.



Correct, the CBS dt comes in at ~60 signal strength. NBC unreceivable, FOX, ABC (1,2&3) ~45-50, WOR and CW the same.

WLIW (ch21 Garden City) ~70. That's with a 10db RS amp, downline from the ant.


Thanks for the suggestions Rick! I like the 91xg and ya1713.


----------



## shadowcaster

Got it, thanks Rick!


----------



## MeowMeow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shadowcaster* /forum/post/12225254
> 
> 
> wow ! 110 mi is quite a distance. I wouldn't think it's possible but you can
> 
> check on TVfool's web site to see if it's feasible.



110 mi is not doable without a gigantic tower (at least several hundred feet), especially considering most DTV channels are on the UHF band which does not propagate well beyond 60-70 mi.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MeowMeow* /forum/post/12244906
> 
> 
> 110 mi is not doable without a gigantic tower (at least several hundred feet), especially considering most DTV channels are on the UHF band which does not propagate well beyond 60-70 mi.



As a TV DXer since I was a kid in the 1960s, I would have agreed with your comment. Well, that is until this past June when I installed a simple UHF antenna setup for a friend in a rural area near Quincy, IL to receive DTV stations from St. Louis, MO, in the 99-107 mile range. I didn't think it would be possible to receive these stations on a semi-regular basis, but it is. Most of the St. Louis stations are high power (several at the max. 1000 kW) with good tower height (1000-1100 ft. HAAT). Location, location, location of your antenna seems to be the key to good DTV reception, no matter how far you are from the transmitters/towers.


The pictures of this antenna setup, which I've attached, make this whole scenario even more unusual, as the antenna is an older, simple RS yagi/corner reflector unit mounted @ only 12 ft. AGL. But the fairly unobstructed terrain to the south (toward St. Louis) overlooking a corn field, has to help this situation. The preamp is the CM 7777 and the rotor is the CM 9521. The last picture, taken from the roof of the house, looking south toward St. Louis, gives you an idea as to how the terrain looks.


I figured that when the summer tropo enhancement ended, my friend's reception of these DTV stations around 100 miles would end, but he tells me that they are still USUALLY there, even this time of the year when the atmosphere provides little or no signal bounce.


Fishman1, good luck with your antenna project in TX and let us know what you decide to install and please let us know your reception results.


Steve


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *goldrich* /forum/post/12250490
> 
> 
> Well, that is until this past June when I installed a simple UHF antenna setup for a friend in a rural area near Quincy, IL to receive DTV stations from St. Louis, MO, in the 99-107 mile range. I didn't think it would be possible to receive these stations on a semi-regular basis, but it is. Most of the St. Louis stations are high power (several at the max. 1000 kW) with good tower height (1000-1100 ft. HAAT). Location, location, location of your antenna seems to be the key to good DTV reception, no matter how far you are from the transmitters/towers.



With results like these, I continue to question the use of the VHF band for DTV. For many areas, it's much easier to deal with UHF only.


What are the prospects for St. Louis in 2009? It looks like it may be one of the lucky areas w/o VHF after the analog switch-off, but the FCC chart lists the stations by license city vs. by location.


Thank you for the info.


----------



## Wireman134

I'm using a Antennacraft Y5-2-6 for VHF combined with a DIY DB4 4 bay UHF (very simple to make) joined together with a UVSJ to one cable to my HDTV. I'm 30+ miles SW of the towers downtown. The Y5-2-6 pulls in the VHF High freq. just fine, and during low interference (late night early morning) the Y5-2-6 picks up Milwaukee VHF Ch 4.1 & Ch 6.1. Also my DB4 Clone pulls in from all directions. These are both in my attic at about 620' elev.
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=Y5-2-6


----------



## SmogTDI




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *goldrich* /forum/post/12250490
> 
> 
> As a TV DXer since I was a kid in the 1960s, I would have agreed with your comment. Well, that is until this past June when I installed a simple UHF antenna setup for a friend in a rural area near Quincy, IL to receive DTV stations from St. Louis, MO, in the 99-107 mile range.



We are pulling reliable and watchable DTV stations 110 miles away using an old rusted Channel master CM4221 no preamps


BUT


we live in the mountains north of Montreal PQ while the antennas for the burlington VT DTV is on top of of the Mt Mansfield mountain.... so yes we get line of sight (kind of... it's the St-Laurence valley and the Champlain valley between me and the transmitter)


and the rusted CM4221 also pull the analog VHF stations 50 miles away (Montreal Canada).


So I'm now looking to get a new CM4228 8 bays UHF antenna to replace the old rusty 4 bays.


well.. I don't have any other choice than pulling the 110 miles distance as there's no freakin DTV station available in my area (ok, CBC and SRC are public dtv stations)


----------



## MeowMeow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *goldrich* /forum/post/12250490
> 
> 
> I figured that when the summer tropo enhancement ended, my friend's reception of these DTV stations around 100 miles would end, but he tells me that they are still USUALLY there, even this time of the year when the atmosphere provides little or no signal bounce.



It is tropo reception. Tropo is not dependable. And 100 mi ain't the same as 110 mi. Especially when UHF propagation drops at an exponential rate the further you are from the transmitter.


I never said reception at 110 mi was impossible. But, long range UHF reception becomes much less practical once you go over 70 mi from the transmitter, maybe 80-90 mi in a very flat part of the world with high transmitter towers (quite a few parts of the midwest have this).


If it worth playing with? Yup. I'm in central-western PA, and I have received DTV UHF out of Cleveland and Buffalo. But, those aren't channels I bet on receiving when I sit down to actually watch TV in the evening.


----------



## Dwdrumon

Im mostly looking to pick up Fox in HD. I have directv with the hd package and that is the only local i dont get in HD that i want.


Can i get some opinions on what a good antenna would be? Im looking for something indoor and realtively cheap. I dont understand all the talk between amplified, direction, multidirectional.


If you have a few suggestions i would greatly appreciate it.



* yellow - uhf WFRV-DT 5.1 CBS GREEN BAY WI 79° 19.4 39

* yellow - uhf WGBA-DT 26.1 NBC GREEN BAY WI 74° 20.0 41

* green - uhf WLUK-DT 11.1 FOX GREEN BAY WI 79° 19.4 51

red - uhf WGBA 26 NBC GREEN BAY WI 74° 20.0 26

red - uhf WACY 32 MNT APPLETON WI 74° 19.9 32

* red - uhf WACY-DT 32.1 MNT APPLETON WI 74° 20.0 27

red - vhf WLUK 11 FOX GREEN BAY WI 64° 20.9 11

red - uhf WPNE 38 PBS GREEN BAY WI 63° 20.4 38

* red - uhf WPNE-DT 38.1 PBS GREEN BAY WI 63° 20.4 42

* red - uhf WBAY-DT 2.1 ABC GREEN BAY WI 63° 20.4 23

red - vhf WBAY 2 ABC GREEN BAY WI 63° 20.4 2

red - vhf WFRV 5 CBS GREEN BAY WI 64° 20.2 5

red - uhf WIWB 14 CW SURING WI 12° 32.7 14

* red - uhf WIWB-DT 14.1 CW SURING WI 78° 19.4 21

blue - uhf W17CF 17 TBN OSHKOSH WI 213° 16.2 17

blue - uhf WWAZ 68 FMN FOND DU LAC WI 183° 29.5 68

Note:


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MeowMeow* /forum/post/12259868
> 
> 
> It is tropo reception. Tropo is not dependable. And 100 mi ain't the same as 110 mi. Especially when UHF propagation drops at an exponential rate the further you are from the transmitter.



LOS and diffraction-based reception falls off geometrically. Tropo isn't a monotonic function of distance. No exponentials involved.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler

Got High?


Is anyone aware of a High-Selecting Signal device at a consumer price?


I'd like to have more than one antenna, perhaps of the same model, located a few feet or more apart (side to side or above/below) pointing in the same direction. Rather than combining the two signals, I'd like to automatically select the stronger signal based on the strength of a frequency (channel) that I can select (perhaps with a pot or dip switches). Is there such a thing at a non-industrial price?


----------



## MeowMeow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/12261458
> 
> 
> LOS and diffraction-based reception falls off geometrically. Tropo isn't a monotonic function of distance. No exponentials involved.



But it is still very unreliable. Yeah, you get a lucky bounce, it works. And, in some areas some nice geographic feature will help.


Where I live depending on tropo is inviting bad reception. Once it gets into October, we get virtually no tropo.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dwdrumon* /forum/post/12261387
> 
> 
> Im mostly looking to pick up Fox in HD. I have directv with the hd package and that is the only local i dont get in HD that i want.
> 
> 
> Can i get some opinions on what a good antenna would be? Im looking for something indoor and realtively cheap. I dont understand all the talk between amplified, direction, multidirectional.



All of your local digital stations are currently on UHF and around 20 miles away over a 15 degree spread in azimuth. WLUK-DT Fox 11 will switch from UHF 51 to VHF 11 in 2009 after the analog shutdown. The good news is that most larger UHF antennas can pick up the upper end of VHF stations ok.


An indoor antenna is iffy at 20 miles given the red color codes. If you want to try indoor, the Silver Sensor UHF antenna - nonamplified - is worth a shot if you can buy it locally (and return if it does not work). You should place it high up in the room or facing a window in the direction of the broadcast stations if you can. Another type of UHF antenna that can be used indoors that should also work for VHF 11 is the Channel Master 4220 or the AntennasDirect DB-2 two Bay bowties. These are outdoor antennas so they can be mounted in the attic or on the side of the house if you need the performance. See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html for antenna basics and more info under the comparing commercial antennas link.


----------



## rwatson73

I have a Radio Shack VU-190 XR and @ 10 feet above roof top... I get 56 total station and some comes in great and some come in bad.... but get both Cincinati and Dayton station..... I would like to recieve stations further away... would DB8 Antenna, & Low Noise Amplifier be good? and should I get a antenna rotator? I am new at this but have a HDTV with HD Built In.... I live in Zip Code 55402.. Thanks could use all the help i can get...

Robert


----------



## tyromark

Robert -

You're getting 56 signals and NOT using a rotor? Some of the signals must be coming in off the back of your antenna (let me guess - the poor reception). Your zip code in Middletown would have to be 45042 or 45044, I think, in case anyone else is looking up the Dayton/Oxford/Cincinnati/No. Ky. stations for you. Use Rick's prescription and by all means, put a rotor under it all.


----------



## Fishman1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MeowMeow* /forum/post/12259868
> 
> 
> It is tropo reception. Tropo is not dependable. And 100 mi ain't the same as 110 mi. Especially when UHF propagation drops at an exponential rate the further you are from the transmitter.
> 
> 
> I never said reception at 110 mi was impossible. But, long range UHF reception becomes much less practical once you go over 70 mi from the transmitter, maybe 80-90 mi in a very flat part of the world with high transmitter towers (quite a few parts of the midwest have this).
> 
> 
> If it worth playing with? Yup. I'm in central-western PA, and I have received DTV UHF out of Cleveland and Buffalo. But, those aren't channels I bet on receiving when I sit down to actually watch TV in the evening.




I was thinking of going with a DB8 8bay for the UHF but what about the VHF? Suggestions?









The terrain from me to the towers is decidedly uphill...


----------



## MeowMeow

Deleted because I was answering the wrong guy.


----------



## MeowMeow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Fishman1* /forum/post/12267228
> 
> 
> I was thinking of going with a DB8 8bay for the UHF but what about the VHF? Suggestions?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The terrain from me to the towers is decidedly uphill...



I'm not the best person to tell you about closer reception. My advice is start small and work your way up.


I'd start with something like a two bowtie indoors and then maybe up to an outdoor four bowtie.


If you're less than 10mi, it shouldn't take much antenna, unless your conditions are horrific (blocked by a major mountain).


----------



## Fishman1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MeowMeow* /forum/post/12268673
> 
> 
> I'm not the best person to tell you about closer reception. My advice is start small and work your way up.
> 
> 
> I'd start with something like a two bowtie indoors and then maybe up to an outdoor four bowtie.
> 
> 
> If you're less than 10mi, it shouldn't take much antenna, unless your conditions are horrific (blocked by a major mountain).



Nope, I'm the one with 110 miles to go.....tho after TVFool it turns out to be 60-75 LOS. May use a pair, one for 331-332degAz(60-70mi) and a DB4(or another db8) for 169-173degAz(45-60mi). We live out between BFE(Bumf***egypt) and MFN(Middle 'o frickennowhere).


----------



## MeowMeow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Fishman1* /forum/post/12269405
> 
> 
> Nope, I'm the one with 110 miles to go.....tho after TVFool it turns out to be 60-75 LOS. May use a pair, one for 331-332degAz(60-70mi) and a DB4(or another db8) for 169-173degAz(45-60mi). We live out between BFE(Bumf***egypt) and MFN(Middle 'o frickennowhere).



Please let us all know what your results are. It would certainly be interesting to have someone assemble a rig that works well for this goal.


If you're going to be ganging, forget the CM 4228. It is pretty heavy by itself. If you're going to gang UHF antennas there is only one realistic option (because of weight) and that's the 91XG.


Hopefully you won't have to be one of these folks ganging four 91XGs on a 100' tower. Not that that doesn't look supremely badass -- and if I had the resources and the time to make it work I'd totally have a party with it -- but I think most folks who come to this website are looking for reasonable consumer-grade solutions.


----------



## Mister B

Fishman1, I thought I would offer some advice from a fellow Texan although I am about 500 miles from you. I live in the desert east of El Paso and have experimented with antennas since I was a kid in rural New Mexico.


I looked up the TV stations in your area and also any frequency changes to take place in February of 2009. I don't see that you have taken into account the two channels in Victoria, TX which you may prefer for the most local news and weather and it appears the only FOX network possible at this time. As you may know ABC is on 15 and FOX is on 11 in Victoria.


Corpus Christi has another ABC on 8, NBC/CW on 13, your only PBS for now on 23 and CBS now on 18 but due to move to channel 10.


San Antonio has another ABC affiliate on 48 but due to move to 12, CBS on 55 to stay on UHF but move to 39 and NBC on 58 going to 48.


This presents the problem of both UHF and VHF channels in all 3 directions.


It seems that you prefer separate antennas pointed different directions (of course one must use a RF switch) rather than the use of a rotor. I like to use a switch also as the change is instant rather than waiting for a rotor to turn around. Also a rotor adds weight to the mast and they tend to get out of alignment. However, if you choose to use a rotor then only one UHF and one VHF would be needed (combined with a UHF/VHF band splitter/combiner), sometimes called a diplexer although that term has become to be used more often to combine satellite and antennas.


I believe I would go with separate VHF and UHF antennas pointed at Victoria and the same for Corpus Christi. That would give you all of the major networks. San Antonio may be more difficult. You see that TV Fool shows those channels as "2 edge". That can mean several things but definitely presents problems. You could always leave San Antonio as a project for a later time.


As far as antenna selection, I have the Winegard HD-9032 and pick up a PBS station from New Mexico 48 miles away through a mountain pass. The 9095P is a nice looking antenna but is twice as heavy (wind is a problem here) and it does not have quite the specs as the 9032. Also, I am a bit concerned how it hangs completely off one side of the mast rather than balancing in the middle. Most people feel the Antennas Direct 91XG has a bit better performance. It is also felt that it may not hold up under high winds as well, it is heavier and more expensive.


For high band VHF (7-13) I have the Winegard YA-1713. We have no VHF digital at this time but will in 2009. I actually bought it for analog and was very pleased. I had never received our PBS station on analog 13 without a ghost and with the YA-1713 the signal is perfect.


In summary, if I were in your situation (and as best I can tell from 500 miles away), I would mount one Winegard HD-9032 coupled with a Winegard YA-1713 about 25 feet high pointed at Victoria and an identical configuration pointed at Corpus Christi. I like the remote control RF switches although they do loose a little more signal than manual switches. That would leave San Antonio a a fun project for later.


----------



## Thomas Choong

I'm using an Antennas Direct DB2 indoors, and most of the time, I get a good signal. Sometimes when it's cloudy and/or raining, I get dropouts. Is this due to multipath? Would the problem be solved if I moved it outdoors? There are some tall trees around the house, they're 50+ feet tall.


----------



## ChaseArcher




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Thomas Choong* /forum/post/12289968
> 
> 
> I'm using an Antennas Direct DB2 indoors, tall.



Could the person answering the previous question answer a quick one of mine as well... Both Amazon.com and the manufacturer list this as a multi-directional antenna. From what I've read here that doesn't seem to be the case.


If in fact it's a directional antenna, what is the 'front'? I'm assuming the metal grill is at the rear, the bow-ties are in front of that, and the direction you aim it is perpendicular to the plane the bow-ties are in.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ChaseArcher* /forum/post/12290826
> 
> 
> Could the person answering the previous question answer a quick one of mine as well... Both Amazon.com and the manufacturer list this as a multi-directional antenna. From what I've read here that doesn't seem to be the case.
> 
> 
> If in fact it's a directional antenna, what is the 'front'? I'm assuming the metal grill is at the rear, the bow-ties are in front of that, and the direction you aim it is perpendicular to the plane the bow-ties are in.



The DB2 has a wide beam-width compared to higher gain antennas. The following page has a polar gain plot to help illustrate.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB2.html 


"Multi-directional" is not the best term, it would be better to say that it has a wide acceptance angle.


Yes, the bow-ties are the front, so the screen should be towards the back. The screen blocks unwanted signals from the rear.


----------



## Neil L

"The screen blocks unwanted signals from the rear", is not the best term either. It would be better to say, it attenuates signals from the rear somewhat. Although, if you wanted a bi-directional antenna with a wide acceptance angle in both forward and rearward directions, you could remove the screen.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Thomas Choong* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm using an Antennas Direct DB2 indoors. Sometimes when it's cloudy and/or raining, I get dropouts. Would the problem be solved if I moved it outdoors?



It is more likely wind moving the leaves on the trees around that is causing the dropouts. How far are you from the broadcast towers? What is their ERP? Putting the antenna outside is usually better, try it for a while and see.


----------



## Thomas Choong




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/12292330
> 
> 
> It is more likely wind moving the leaves on the trees around that is causing the dropouts. How far are you from the broadcast towers? What is their ERP? Putting the antenna outside is usually better, try it for a while and see.



How do leaves affect the signal? If I put the antenna outside, I'm guessing leaves will still be a factor. Is any antenna leaf-proof, or am I going to get dropouts every time leaves move?


I'm less than 10 miles from most of the towers. I think my attachment has ERP stats, take a look.


----------



## kevlo911

Here are the channels I can receive, it seems I need a very strong antenna.

* red - uhf WBIF-DT 51 RTN MARIANNA FL TBD 113° 41.5 51

* red - uhf WMBB-DT 13.1 ABC FL-Panama City FL 122° 51.6 19

* red - uhf WDFX-DT 33.1 FOX OZARK AL 45° 45.3 33

* violet - vhf WJHG-DT 7.1 NBC PANAMA CITY FL 117° 47.8 8

* violet - uhf WFSG-DT 38.1 PBS Panama City FL 155° 28.2 38

* violet - uhf WTVY-DT 4.1 CBS DOTHAN AL 63° 27.0 36
http://kevlo911.ic3donline.com/images/Radar-Digital.png 

Those are the results from TVfool



I just bought a Sony KDS-55A3000 and would like to pick up the local HD channels. I see that many of the antenna that fall under Violet from CM are HUGE. So I wanted to know what antennas I can look at and how much signal loss there would be if I used a 50-75 foot cable from the TV to the antenna. If I can use this long cable w/o a major loss in signal I can mount the antenna on a pole 15-20ish feet high with nothing in its' way. Or do you guys think that I will have to mount the antenna closer with a shorter cable?


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Thomas Choong* /forum/post/12292779
> 
> 
> How do leaves affect the signal? If I put the antenna outside, I'm guessing leaves will still be a factor. Is any antenna leaf-proof, or am I going to get dropouts every time leaves move?
> 
> 
> I'm less than 10 miles from most of the towers. I think my attachment has ERP stats, take a look.




Outside mount would be better or if you have a 2nd floor room facing toward the towers put the antenna there or up in the attic.


What kind of coax are you using? RG-59 or RG-6 and are you using any kind of amp or pre-amps ? Buy a long coax with ends already on it and run it up to the roof though a window and place it on a temp mount setup and move it around to find a sweet spot. I have a homebuilt DB-2 and I have it in my coat closet shelf on outside wall in 2nd floor apartment and I get stations 60 miles away.


-Willie


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Thomas Choong* /forum/post/12292779
> 
> 
> How do leaves affect the signal? If I put the antenna outside, I'm guessing leaves will still be a factor. Is any antenna leaf-proof, or am I going to get dropouts every time leaves move?



If the antenna is behind a tree, it is in overlapping fields: a weak field that passes through the tree plus a weak field that is diffracted around the tree. Overlapping fields are complicated, with strong spots and weak spots. If you get a UHF antenna to work behind a tree, you will likely see dropouts when the wind blows because the strong and weak spots will move around as the tree deforms. Even in a good-signal neighborhood it is inadvisable to put a UHF antenna behind a tree.


The farther away a tree is, the less of a problem it is. For far away trees, assume no signal penetrates the tree, and reception will be by diffraction around the tree.


So, yes, the leaves will still be a factor outside, but less so. No antenna is leaf-proof. The only solution is antenna location. Above the trees, below the branches or to the side of the offending tree(s). My antenna is outside, about twenty feet AGL, looking right into some huge trees about 75ft away. The transmitters are about twenty miles away and I don't have any trouble from the trees. But then the two channels coming in from that direction are 9 and 21. Not as affected as higher UHF.


----------



## Thomas Choong




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WillieAntenna* /forum/post/12293071
> 
> 
> Outside mount would be better or if you have a 2nd floor room facing toward the towers put the antenna there or up in the attic.
> 
> 
> What kind of coax are you using? RG-59 or RG-6 and are you using any kind of amp or pre-amps ? Buy a long coax with ends already on it and run it up to the roof though a window and place it on a temp mount setup and move it around to find a sweet spot. I have a homebuilt DB-2 and I have it in my coat closet shelf on outside wall in 2nd floor apartment and I get stations 60 miles away.
> 
> 
> -Willie



The antenna is already on the 2nd floor pointed towards the towers using RG6, no amp or preamp. The signal is perfect as long as there's no wind, I guess. Some stations are still find even if it's windy.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/12293198
> 
> 
> The only solution is antenna location. Above the trees, below the branches or to the side of the offending tree(s).



Thanks. I guess the only solution is to place it to the side of the trees.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevlo911* /forum/post/12292936
> 
> 
> Here are the channels I can receive, it seems I need a very strong antenna.
> 
> * red - uhf WBIF-DT 51 RTN MARIANNA FL TBD 113° 41.5 51
> 
> * red - uhf WMBB-DT 13.1 ABC FL-Panama City FL 122° 51.6 19
> 
> * red - uhf WDFX-DT 33.1 FOX OZARK AL 45° 45.3 33
> 
> * violet - vhf WJHG-DT 7.1 NBC PANAMA CITY FL 117° 47.8 8
> 
> * violet - uhf WFSG-DT 38.1 PBS Panama City FL 155° 28.2 38
> 
> * violet - uhf WTVY-DT 4.1 CBS DOTHAN AL 63° 27.0 36
> http://kevlo911.ic3donline.com/images/Radar-Digital.png
> 
> Those are the results from TVfool



Welcome!


NBC is on channel 8 from 117 degrees, FOX is channel 9 at 123 degrees. An Antennacraft T10-7-13 aimed at 120 will get both of them. The Antennacraft HBU-22 covers both VHF high and UHF and might be good enough for NBC, FOX, and ABC. CBS is in a different direction, suggesting either a rotator or a separate UHF antenna for CBS. Antennaweb and TVfool disagree about the strength of WTVY-DT. Perhaps your address is more accurate on one web site than the other. In any event a separate UHF only antenna would work fine, but which one?


----------



## DECdaze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Thomas Choong* /forum/post/12292779
> 
> 
> How do leaves affect the signal? If I put the antenna outside, I'm guessing leaves will still be a factor. Is any antenna leaf-proof, or am I going to get dropouts every time leaves move?
> 
> 
> I'm less than 10 miles from most of the towers. I think my attachment has ERP stats, take a look.



How can leaves be a factor? Well, believe it or not even only 10 miles away from the broadcast tower most of the UHF channels (especially higher channels) can be blocked by trees and leaves. For a much more detailed explanation, you might want to read:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html 


The HDTV Primer web page provides a lot of great information about antennas and some of the challenges you may face.


----------



## Thomas Choong




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DECdaze* /forum/post/12293564
> 
> 
> How can leaves be a factor? Well, believe it or not even only 10 miles away from the broadcast tower most of the UHF channels (especially higher channels) can be blocked by trees and leaves. For a much more detailed explanation, you might want to read:
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html
> 
> 
> The HDTV Primer web page provides a lot of great information about antennas and some of the challenges you may face.



Thanks!


----------



## ChaseArcher




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/12292330
> 
> 
> "The screen blocks unwanted signals from the rear", is not the best term either. It would be better to say, it attenuates signals from the rear somewhat. Although, if you wanted a bi-directional antenna with a wide acceptance angle in both forward and rearward directions, you could remove the screen.



So here's my situation... My media room is in my basement, surrounded on all sides by lots of house and dirt. My antenna's location will require a cable run, so I figure it's just as easy to put it outside. I'm close enough that I don't think I need anything immense. Here are the stations I'm interested in:



I started with a small GE Futura Outdoor HDTV antenna. I got a 100' reel of RG6 and ran it downstairs to my HTPC which will be doing the tuning. I screwed the antenna to a 2 x 4 and clamped that to my deck outside on the 2nd floor of my house so I could move it around easily.


That antenna came with a small inline signal booster. I guess ideally that should be near the antenna end of the cable, but I didn't have a way to hook it up there, so I stuck it at the media room end.


I've got a couple of things I'm basing the signal strength on. Hauppauge has a program they call a ' Digital Signal Strength Indicator ' that shows SNR, Received Errors and Uncorrectable Errors. Also I'm using Beyond TV, and the setup wizard has a tool that scans through the channels and assigns them ratings which I'm guessing are on a 0-100 scale.


So with the included signal booster at the wrong end of the cable I was getting poor signals. I swapped out that with this Motorola Signal Booster I'd picked up to deal with the multiple cable splits I needed to deal with my HTPC. Now I was finally getting good strong signals, but it seemed like there was always one or two channels that weren't coming through. In this case I think it was one of the ones at the greater distance. So I decided to try a better antenna, and I ordered a DB2.


When that came I set everything up again. My best results were with the antenna aimed at the more distant stations. Everything was coming in clear except for CBS. I'd been using AntennaWeb, and I don't remember seeing station broadcast strength. Then I saw a link for TVFool, and that was listed. I see now that my CBS station is the weakest of the three near stations at 21 kW. Is it likely that the screen on my antenna is blocking that signal, and pulling it off will fix things?


Also, when and if I finally find a sweet spot for the antenna, I'm going to tidy up the cable run, and I'm guessing that the 100' will shrink to maybe 30-40'. What's that extra 60' of missing cable going to do to the signal? Can I boost it too much?


Lastly, in this situation is there a better antenna I could be using, since I'm trying to take a uni-directional antenna and bastardize it into service as a multidirectional.


Sorry for the verbosity of this post. I'm new to the whole antenna thing and I didn't want to leave out anything important.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ChaseArcher* /forum/post/12293910
> 
> 
> Here are the stations I'm interested in:



Interesting situation: You're too close to three of the stations to use an amplifier. The direction to the other two is almost 180 degrees. Yet, all of your stations are at modest power levels. Removing the screen on the DB2 will get the proper pattern, and the impedance would be wrong, but it is likely to work. If not try two DB2's, one aimed at 210, the other at 37; coupled with a splitter used backwards.


----------



## Rick0725




> Quote:
> The antenna is already on the 2nd floor pointed towards the towers using RG6, no amp or preamp. The signal is perfect as long as there's no wind, I guess. Some stations are still find even if it's windy.



from my experiences over the years dealing with the issue at user's homes and at the same time living with a huge wall of trees behind me. I would prefer trees behind me any day. Having trees in front is much worse.


the antenna


-must be several sizes larger at least 2-3 times larger than what is typical under normal conditions.

-must have a high front to back ratio with trees behind you and more forward gain

-bow ties of any size tame the affect of the wind and trees poorly

-the antenna system must be soundly mounted and not allowed to sway during the wind gusts.


The extra gain of an oversized antenna allow the signal strength to be above the threshold of the receiver during the fluctuations up and down. The large antennas tend to have a larger front to back ratio and are more directional...all good traits necessary to tame the effects.


The dips in signal during wind gusts really never go away. the extra gain just allows for more cushion during the peaks and valleys of signal.


you are going to need an antenna 2-3 sizes bigger that normally suggested for your conditions. A db2, db4, cm4221 therefore generally are not going to cut it. and would mount outdoors. mounting indoors also just adds to the issues.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by ChaseArcher View Post
> 
> Here are the stations I'm interested in:
> 
> http://www.woodenbadger.com/temp/radar.png





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/12294963
> 
> 
> Interesting situation: You're too close to three of the stations to use an amplifier. The direction to the other two is almost 180 degrees. Yet, all of your stations are at modest power levels. Removing the screen on the DB2 will get the proper pattern, and the impedance would be wrong, but it is likely to work. If not try two DB2's, one aimed at 210, the other at 37; coupled with a splitter used backwards.



The only "GE Futura" antennas I could find were indoor rabbit-ears and "loop" type, with a built-in amplifier.....

I would guess that what you think is an in-line amplifier is actually the AC Power Module for the amplifier inside the antenna.


Without the AC Power Module, the amplifier inside the antenna is nearly DEAD.

And WITH the AC Power Module, the amplifier is blown away with signal overload.


----------



## Cheryl63

It must get really tiring answering the same question over and over, and I for one really appreciate you guys taking the time to do this for us video newbies.


I live in Raleigh, NC, and my zip is 27609. What type of antenna do you recommend for me?


Thanks in advance.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cheryl63* /forum/post/12296149
> 
> 
> I live in Raleigh, NC, and my zip is 27609. What type of antenna do you recommend for me?



Assuming the closest station group is the desired target, for now an Antennas Direct DB2 or a Channel Master 4220 should be sufficient. You may want to try a simple (un-amplified) rabbit ear/loop combo at first to see if that works.


Looking ahead to 2009, WTVD will be moving back to VHF channel 11, so a separate VHF antenna may be required then if you get a UHF only antenna now.


Will you be using a built-in HDTV tuner or a STB (box)?


----------



## Thomas Choong




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/12295486
> 
> 
> you are going to need an antenna 2-3 sizes bigger that normally suggested for your conditions. A db2, db4, cm4221 therefore generally are not going to cut it. and would mount outdoors. mounting indoors also just adds to the issues.



What antennas do you recommend for my case?


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Thomas Choong* /forum/post/12298649
> 
> 
> What antennas do you recommend for my case?



It appears that you need a more directional antenna than a DB2, etc. However, a larger (Yagi type) antenna will have more gain.


Does it make sense to get something like a 91XG and then use an attenuator? An amp should be avoided, but will the 91XG overload the front end of the tuner in this case?


I am also wondering about the effectiveness of cable attenuators for OTA applications. I have 10dB and 20dB cable TV attenuators, but it is unclear if they are having the desired effect.


I suppose the signal can be attenuated by splitters, but that doesn't seem to be an elegant approach.


----------



## Rick0725




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/12298743
> 
> 
> It appears that you need a more directional antenna than a DB2, etc. However, a larger (Yagi type) antenna will have more gain.
> 
> 
> Does it make sense to get something like a 91XG and then use an attenuator? An amp should be avoided, but will the 91XG overload the front end of the tuner in this case?
> 
> 
> I am also wondering about the effectiveness of cable attenuators for OTA applications. I have 10dB and 20dB cable TV attenuators, but it is unclear if they are having the desired effect.
> 
> 
> I suppose the signal can be attenuated by splitters, but that doesn't seem to be an elegant approach.



overload is rare unless you are amplifying or right on top or of close proximity to the transmitters. You can use a 91 xg within reason. I do not like to use attenuation.


----------



## Rick0725




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Thomas Choong* /forum/post/12298649
> 
> 
> What antennas do you recommend for my case?



If I were to install at your home , I would use the winegard hd7080p combo aimed between 132-145 deg. with the db-2 you currently own and ch 38 jointenna aimed at 46 degrees. And if the db2 did not work at 46 degress then a 43xg.


If you split the signal with decent runs I would add an hdp 269 preamp at the distribution point used as a distribution amp and only amplify uhf and pass vhf.


If you want a wiring diagram let me know.


----------



## kevlo911




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/12293534
> 
> 
> Welcome!
> 
> 
> NBC is on channel 8 from 117 degrees, FOX is channel 9 at 123 degrees. An Antennacraft T10-7-13 aimed at 120 will get both of them. The Antennacraft HBU-22 covers both VHF high and UHF and might be good enough for NBC, FOX, and ABC. CBS is in a different direction, suggesting either a rotator or a separate UHF antenna for CBS. Antennaweb and TVfool disagree about the strength of WTVY-DT. Perhaps your address is more accurate on one web site than the other. In any event a separate UHF only antenna would work fine, but which one?




Yeah, just need to figure out the antennas, what do you think about using the long cable? I can't find the antennacraft T10? Any others I should be looking at?


----------



## WillieAntenna




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevlo911* /forum/post/12307442
> 
> 
> Yeah, just need to figure out the antennas, what do you think about using the long cable? I can't find the antennacraft T10? Any others I should be looking at?



Antennacraft T10 was mistyped it should be Y10 here link to antennacraft website with specs http://www.antennacraft.net/pdfs/Y10-7-13.pdf 


-Willie


----------



## tlniec

Hello, all.

I just ordered a DTB-H260F ATSC tuner, and am now shopping antennas. I popped into antennweb, and came up with the following results:


* yellow - uhf KFXA-DT 28.1 FOX CEDAR RAPIDS IA 248° 17.0 27

* yellow - uhf KGAN-DT 2.1 CBS CEDAR RAPIDS IA 335° 10.1 51

* yellow - uhf KCRG-DT 9.1 ABC CEDAR RAPIDS IA 335° 10.1 52

* yellow - uhf KRIN-DT 35.1 PBS WATERLOO IA 335° 10.1 35

* yellow - uhf KWWL-DT 7.1 NBC WATERLOO IA 347° 15.5 55

* yellow - uhf KPXR-DT 48.1 ION CEDAR RAPIDS IA 323° 9.1 47

* green - uhf KWKB-DT 20.1 CW IOWA CITY IA 144° 38.4 25

* violet - uhf KIIN-DT 45.1 PBS IOWA CITY IA 144° 39.0 45


I'm interested in Cedar Rapids and Waterloo stations only, not the Iowa City ones. That suggests that an indoor antenna should do fine. Now, my question is WHICH indoor antennas should I look at?


I would like to place the antenna in the northwest corner of my basement, if that makes a difference. Thanks!


----------



## DECdaze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tlniec* /forum/post/12315913
> 
> 
> Hello, all.
> 
> I just ordered a DTB-H260F ATSC tuner, and am now shopping antennas. I popped into antennweb, and came up with the following results:
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf KFXA-DT 28.1 FOX CEDAR RAPIDS IA 248° 17.0 27
> 
> * yellow - uhf KGAN-DT 2.1 CBS CEDAR RAPIDS IA 335° 10.1 51
> 
> * yellow - uhf KCRG-DT 9.1 ABC CEDAR RAPIDS IA 335° 10.1 52
> 
> * yellow - uhf KRIN-DT 35.1 PBS WATERLOO IA 335° 10.1 35
> 
> * yellow - uhf KWWL-DT 7.1 NBC WATERLOO IA 347° 15.5 55
> 
> * yellow - uhf KPXR-DT 48.1 ION CEDAR RAPIDS IA 323° 9.1 47
> 
> * green - uhf KWKB-DT 20.1 CW IOWA CITY IA 144° 38.4 25
> 
> * violet - uhf KIIN-DT 45.1 PBS IOWA CITY IA 144° 39.0 45
> 
> 
> I'm interested in Cedar Rapids and Waterloo stations only, not the Iowa City ones. That suggests that an indoor antenna should do fine. Now, my question is WHICH indoor antennas should I look at?



So, I'm reading along, thinking everything is fine. Then I continue on and read....



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tlniec* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I would like to place the antenna in the northwest corner of my basement, if that makes a difference. Thanks!



Yeouch!







Uh, this brings up a whole host of questions. Basement?







Houston, we have a problem!


First of all, I assume the northwest corner points in the correct direction. Else, you might need to think of another approach.


Second, the UHF signal probably will not penetrate cinder block - often used in basement construction. Do you have a closet above that area? You might be able to place an antenna in that closet and run a cable through the floor to wire it to the TV.


As to the type of indoor antenna, I note you have two stations over 15 miles away. You might want an amplified indoor antenna. The broadcast towers in my area are 19 miles away. I successfully use a Terk HDTVa antenna. The good thing about this type of antenna is that it is directional - it helps eliminate reflections that can interfere with the signal. In your case, that might be a problem since KFXA points off in a different direction. If you have your antenna in a closet, changing the direction may be a nuisance - at the very least.


----------



## tlniec

D'oh. Basement is poured concrete, 8" thick walls. Sounds like that'll be an impediment to UHF, eh? No windows in that area of the basement, either; about the best I could do (while keeping it indoors) would be to put it up between the floor joists (no sheetrock on the ceiling in that part of the basement).

If subterranean placement is an absolute no-no, would putting an "indoor" antenna outdoors (e.g. on the underside of my deck) be a better idea? That'd at least get it outside of the concrete.

Either way, I'm hoping for a set-and-forget antenna, and I DO want to make sure I get KFXA in addition to the other channels; hopefully a multi-directional antenna will be OK. The Samsung tuner box I'm getting is reportedly copes well with multipath. Thanks!


----------



## Fishman1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mister B* /forum/post/12278075
> 
> 
> Fishman1, I thought I would offer some advice from a fellow Texan although I am about 500 miles from you. I live in the desert east of El Paso and have experimented with antennas since I was a kid in rural New Mexico.
> 
> 
> I looked up the TV stations in your area and also any frequency changes to take place in February of 2009. I don't see that you have taken into account the two channels in Victoria, TX which you may prefer for the most local news and weather and it appears the only FOX network possible at this time. As you may know ABC is on 15 and FOX is on 11 in Victoria.
> 
> 
> Corpus Christi has another ABC on 8, NBC/CW on 13, your only PBS for now on 23 and CBS now on 18 but due to move to channel 10.
> 
> 
> San Antonio has another ABC affiliate on 48 but due to move to 12, CBS on 55 to stay on UHF but move to 39 and NBC on 58 going to 48.
> 
> 
> This presents the problem of both UHF and VHF channels in all 3 directions.
> 
> 
> It seems that you prefer separate antennas pointed different directions (of course one must use a RF switch) rather than the use of a rotor. I like to use a switch also as the change is instant rather than waiting for a rotor to turn around. Also a rotor adds weight to the mast and they tend to get out of alignment. However, if you choose to use a rotor then only one UHF and one VHF would be needed (combined with a UHF/VHF band splitter/combiner), sometimes called a diplexer although that term has become to be used more often to combine satellite and antennas.
> 
> 
> I believe I would go with separate VHF and UHF antennas pointed at Victoria and the same for Corpus Christi. That would give you all of the major networks. San Antonio may be more difficult. You see that TV Fool shows those channels as "2 edge". That can mean several things but definitely presents problems. You could always leave San Antonio as a project for a later time.
> 
> 
> As far as antenna selection, I have the Winegard HD-9032 and pick up a PBS station from New Mexico 48 miles away through a mountain pass. The 9095P is a nice looking antenna but is twice as heavy (wind is a problem here) and it does not have quite the specs as the 9032. Also, I am a bit concerned how it hangs completely off one side of the mast rather than balancing in the middle. Most people feel the Antennas Direct 91XG has a bit better performance. It is also felt that it may not hold up under high winds as well, it is heavier and more expensive.
> 
> 
> For high band VHF (7-13) I have the Winegard YA-1713. We have no VHF digital at this time but will in 2009. I actually bought it for analog and was very pleased. I had never received our PBS station on analog 13 without a ghost and with the YA-1713 the signal is perfect.
> 
> 
> In summary, if I were in your situation (and as best I can tell from 500 miles away), I would mount one Winegard HD-9032 coupled with a Winegard YA-1713 about 25 feet high pointed at Victoria and an identical configuration pointed at Corpus Christi. I like the remote control RF switches although they do loose a little more signal than manual switches. That would leave San Antonio a a fun project for later.



I feel for you Mr. B! The Santa Ana's are a drag! I lived in "Hell Paso" for 8 years(Bliss) and 2 years in Alamogordo/Tularosa(Holloman)NM. Never wanna see the sandbox again...but now Cloudcroft..hmmm.


----------



## DECdaze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tlniec* /forum/post/12318800
> 
> 
> D'oh. Basement is poured concrete, 8" thick walls. Sounds like that'll be an impediment to UHF, eh? No windows in that area of the basement, either; about the best I could do (while keeping it indoors) would be to put it up between the floor joists (no sheetrock on the ceiling in that part of the basement).



I think it will have the same problem. The UHF signal would need to penetrate several inches of solid wood. Unless there is a space where you can aim it through siding and not something like the frame.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tlniec* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If subterranean placement is an absolute no-no, would putting an "indoor" antenna outdoors (e.g. on the underside of my deck) be a better idea? That'd at least get it outside of the concrete.



Under the deck should be fine, if you don't have any major obstructions.


As to the type of antenna, you would do better using an outdoor antenna.

Why? An outdoor antenna is designed to handle the weather.


One word of caution. If the antenna is outside you *must* ground it. A great site to learn more about antennas is:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tlniec* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Either way, I'm hoping for a set-and-forget antenna, and I DO want to make sure I get KFXA in addition to the other channels; hopefully a multi-directional antenna will be OK. The Samsung tuner box I'm getting is reportedly copes well with multipath. Thanks!



You should be able to get an antenna that should handle all the towers. A directional antenna will probably help more with multipath issues than the set top box. But the HDTV Primer website should help. Lots of reading and learning, but I found it a good resource.


----------



## tlniec

I suppose I could pick up an indoor antenna, cross my fingers, and give it a try... maybe play around with placement in various locations. I home-ran many RG6 lines, so I could do a fair amount of experimentation. Worst-case, if I can't find an indoor location I'm happy with, I'd just have to take the antenna back and trade up to something else.

Also, I'll take a look at the HDTV Primer site. Thanks!


-edit-

I ended up grabbing a cheapie Philips amplified V/UHF antenna last night -- I had to pick up a couple of things at Target... figured while I was there, I'd pick up whatever antenna they had as a first try. Got home, hooked it up to my DTB-H260F (which had just arrived that same day), and did initial testing and setup in a different room from my main viewing area. I was still in the basement, but in the Northeast corner instead of northwest -- this allowed me to set the antenna on a windowsill. It worked great, and picked up all the "yellow" stations I mentioned before. When I moved around in the room, I could provoke dropouts on KGAN, but that was it.

So, next step - now that I had all the channels programmed in, it was time to move into the 'real' location... the Northwest corner of the basement. That's where the equipment rack feeding my projector resides. I was a little worried, being that there are no windows in that area of the basement. But as it turns out, I encountered no (uncorrectable) problems. I put the antenna at the top of my rack (so its base was ~6' off the floor), hooked everything up, and checked it out. All the stations still came in, but I was getting dropouts every minute or so on KCRG. I turned the UHF element on the antenna a little bit, dialed in some more gain, and boom -- no more dropouts.

Sorry for the long story, but I'm so excited. This is my first foray into HDTV. I was flipping between the SD subchannel and HD main channel of my CBS affiliate last night during Letterman... the SD feed looked like what I'd get from my NTSC cable box, but the HD feed made my jaw hit the floor!


----------



## Wireman134

I so enjoy this forum. Allot of helpful information here to say the least. I've got my OTA setup in the attic, which consists of a DIY DB4 4 bay, combined with a AntennaMaster Y5-2-6 for my VHF. They are joined with a UVSJ that has like .3-5db loss and the VHF side passes DC for a preamp. I get 99% of the Chicago OTA channels in my area with this configuration thanks to all you guys. All my digital channels but two are broadcast on UHF, WBBM-DT 2.1 ch.3 and WWTO-DT 35.1 ch.10. After the analog shutdown some stations will go back to VHF high band so I will be keeping the VHF antenna because it pulls in the VHF high just fine. I have a chance of getting a older Blonder Tongue Horizon III VHF preamp that has 300ohm/300ohm (in/out) hook ups. As I want to increase the channel 3 signal from 25% that doesn't stay locked 24/7. My question is, will the voltage from the power inserter make it to the preamp on the mast, through a balun properly, baluns are passive bi-directional devices and should pass DC correct? I do expect some loss through the balun though but all i need is a little boost to get VHF channel 3 locked tight. Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## Rick0725

If ch3 is received poorly you are better off using a higher gain vhf antenna instead of screwing around with the marginal signal with your current antenna. too much amplification (you are already getting 99% on ch 2) will screw everything up.


run 2 separate coax into the home from each antenna


amplify both antennas separately and appropriately. With a higher gain vhf antenna you may be able to get away with not amplifying vhf and only amplifying uhf. If you are less than 30 miles from the towers use winegard hdp269 preamps.


combine the antenna signals after the preamps inside and then split signal to the devices


this will result in less conflicts and more flexibility


----------



## Wireman134




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/12345575
> 
> 
> If ch3 is received poorly you are better off using a higher gain vhf antenna instead of screwing around with the marginal signal with your current antenna. too much amplification (you are already getting 99% on ch 2) will screw everything up.
> 
> 
> run 2 separate coax into the home from each antenna
> 
> 
> amplify both antennas separately and appropriately. With a higher gain vhf antenna you may be able to get away with not amplifying vhf and only amplifying uhf. If you are less than 30 miles from the towers use winegard hdp269 preamps.
> 
> 
> combine the antenna signals after the preamps inside and then split signal to the devices
> 
> 
> this will result in less conflicts and more flexibility



Rick0725, thanks but I'm not getting 99% signal strength, I stated 25% signal for WBBM-DT channel 3. As far as a higher gain VHF antenna I can't fit anything bigger in my attic and the Y5-2-6 Yagi has a high gain and is cut for VHF low band. Both antennas are connected to quad shield RG6 no more than 60' total length. I do not need to amplify the UHF 4 Bay I have as I'm getting 50-85% signal strength on all the UHF digital channels. Just a little boost in VHF band is all I need.


----------



## cansatfan

Have usable signals on the North and South side so I plan to use a rotor...how does the HTL-HD handle the auto scan function when I perform it a number of times in different antenna positions?


----------



## Landlubber

As background, I recently purchased an HDTV to replace our old CRT. We don't have cable or a satellite. Right now all I have is a Radio Shack 15-2187 HD antenna sitting in my attic pointing in the general direction recommended by antennaweb.org. The "power injector" that came with the antenna is connected directly to the TV. According to antennaweb we are about 50 miles from most of the LA station transmitters. Despite the stated limitations for this antenna, we have excellent digital and OK analog reception of nearly all stations (Channel 13 seems to be the lone exception.).


My question is this:


I am wondering if I can use this antenna to serve the other small TV's (none of which are HD) in the house. My house was built prewired, so all the cabling comes to a logical distribution point in a downstairs closet. Are there splitters and/or amplifiers that I can use without degrading the signal too badly?


If I have oversimplified my situation or left important considerations unstated, please let me know. As the title says...


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Landlubber* /forum/post/12360656
> 
> 
> As background, I recently purchased an HDTV to replace our old CRT. We don't have cable or a satellite. Right now all I have is a Radio Shack 15-2187 HD antenna sitting in my attic pointing in the general direction recommended by antennaweb.org. The "power injector" that came with the antenna is connected directly to the TV. According to antennaweb we are about 50 miles from most of the LA station transmitters. Despite the stated limitations for this antenna, we have excellent digital and OK analog reception of nearly all stations (Channel 13 seems to be the lone exception.).
> 
> 
> My question is this:
> 
> 
> I am wondering if I can use this antenna to serve the other small TV's (none of which are HD) in the house. My house was built prewired, so all the cabling comes to a logical distribution point in a downstairs closet. Are there splitters and/or amplifiers that I can use without degrading the signal too badly?
> 
> 
> If I have oversimplified my situation or left important considerations unstated, please let me know. As the title says...



You didn't say where in L.A. you are located (nearby cross streets???).

If you are "too close" to outlying TV stations (e.g. Simi Valley, Riverside areas), you may have

overload problems using a Preamp or Distribution Amp.


If not, try the W-G HDP-269 VHF/UHF Preamp, since it has very high overload resistance.

The Preamp module should be located as close as possible to the antenna and the Power Insertion

Module can be located either in the attic (needs 120V AC power) or in your wiring closet,

followed by a 4-Way (or whatever) RF splitter(s).


----------



## tgw13

Hi antenna folks! I have been searching through a lot of posts here but can't really find an answer to my question. Looks like everyone's setup and details are important so I will post mine and hope that some of you guys with more experience can help.


I am a Dish Network customer using the 622 recieiver. Currently locals are not available in Austin (TX) in HD through Dish. That is okay, OTA actually gives me more recording flexibility through the STB. I picked up a Radio Shack 15-1878 indoor amplified antenna just to see what I could get. It does a pretty good job of picking up my digital locals (75-80 signal, and i have the "gain control" set all the way up) however, if I move too close to the antenna or walk by it I lose signal completely. Until I back away.

The home owners assoc in my neighborhood would flip right out if I tried to install a traditional aerial antenna. So I was looking at the Terk TV 44 that clips onto the dish. I figure put the antenna outside and I won't be able to interfere with the signal. Right? Is this Terk antenna any good? Any better low profile suggestions?


Here is what TVfool.com had to say:










Thanks for any suggestions.


----------



## Landlubber

Thanks for the quick response. Sounds relatively easy, even for a knucklehead like me.


For the record, we live 50 miles EAST of LA (Loma Linda).


----------



## shadowcaster

I can't suggest alternatives but the general consensus here on the forum is that the Terk is NOT a good choice.

*Edit :*To quote another poster "The things that always bothered me about clip ons is they are relatively low gain folded dipoles which are size dependent for best frequency fit, and are bidirectional but cannot be aimed."


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tgw13* /forum/post/12363260
> 
> 
> Hi antenna folks!
> 
> 
> The home owners assoc in my neighborhood would flip right out if I tried to install a traditional aerial antenna.
> 
> 
> Thanks for any suggestions.



This antenna is directional and doesn't look like a conventional antenna. It is High band VHF plus UHF. It's VHF pattern is skewed to the left, which is exactly what you need for KAKW-DT.

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/ss1000.htm 


This is a small conventional antenna that covers channels 7-69 only. It is missing the long elements that cover channels 2-6.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HBU22 


You do not want or need an amplifier.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Landlubber* /forum/post/12363316
> 
> 
> Thanks for the quick response. Sounds relatively easy, even for a knucklehead like me.
> 
> 
> For the record, we live 50 miles EAST of LA (Loma Linda).



A Preamp or Distribution Amp in your Loma Linda location can be difficult.

High power KVCR-TV and KVCR-DT are 6-7 miles due South and lower power KSGA-LP is only 2-3 miles S-W.

Fortunately, they are somewhat suppressed, due to being off to the side of the antenna.


You should first try no preamp and an RF Splitter.

Then you could try adding the HDP-269 and RF Splitter and see if you gain or lose any stations.


Then you can insert a small attenuator BETWEEN the antenna and the Preamp to see if you gain

or lose any stations.

An RF Splitter is handy, cuz it has about 3-4 dB of loss, thereby reducing the intermod distortion products

by a factor of three: 9-12 dB. IMD products only affect certain channels and not others:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ic#post6163454 



Pick whichever works the best....


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shadowcaster* /forum/post/12363595
> 
> 
> I can't suggest alternatives but the general consensus here on the forum is that the Terk is NOT a good choice.
> 
> *Edit :*To quote another poster "The things that always bothered me about clip ons is they are relatively low gain folded dipoles which are size dependent for best frequency fit, and are bidirectional but cannot be aimed."



Here are two "architecture friendly" outdoor antennas that you might want to consider:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/lacrosse.html 
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=family 

The Lacrosse is available unamplified and with a low-gain (high overload) amplifier.

The Radio Shack 15-2187 also has a low-gain amplifier and may be okay since nearby TV towers are over 10 miles away.


You also might want to consider wood/vinyl/fibreglass lattice work or other structures to "hide" an outdoor antenna.


----------



## DECdaze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tgw13* /forum/post/12363260
> 
> 
> ... The home owners assoc in my neighborhood would flip right out if I tried to install a traditional aerial antenna...



While I tend to agree you might want some architectural friendly options, you should know your rights. First, if you own your house and the exterior, then your home owners association has no right to bar your from erecting an antenna. See the following two websites:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html 
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html 


The first site states:



> Quote:
> If you have been told that you may not erect a small outdoor TV antenna, that is probably wrong. The Telecommunications Act of 1996 has a provision that preempts (overrules) nearly all local restrictions such as deed restrictions, home-owners association rules, renters contracts, and so on.



So, remember you have the right to erect an antenna to receive over the air broadcasts.


----------



## tgw13

Thanks everyone for your responses. So with the closest towers around 11mi away, I do not/ should not get one with an amplifier? That will save some trouble with electrical, I suppose. As long as I still get a clear signal.

The Lacrosse one seems to be a good fit.


DECdaze, I agree with what you are saying, and honestly nothing would please me more sometimes than to trump the HMO with law. Sometimes the rules are pretty absurd. But a 20' pole with a large fish skeleton on top is way against the WAF as well. 


Guess I am not really going to get away from this without having to run a separate coax. I was really hoping to diplex into the dish wiring but it sounds like diplexers are not a good idea and that the Dish 1000 is especially difficult to diplex anyway.


Thanks again and I welcome any other thoughts.


----------



## holl_ands

Since you're only 11 miles from local towers, there are lots of options....you don't NEED a big, high antenna.

It also appears that you don't NEED to try to pick up channels in the opposite direction...


You could put a 4-Bay or 8-Bay UHF antenna in the attic...either will also pickup some hi-VHF channels.


Or hang it outdoors just above (or below) the roof ledger board.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tgw13* /forum/post/12366758
> 
> 
> The Lacrosse one seems to be a good fit.
> 
> 
> Thanks again and I welcome any other thoughts.



The Lacrosse is not intended for VHF reception. You may not care about KAKW-DT on channel 13, but consider that some UHF stations will be moving back to VHF. In your case KTBC-DT is on channel 56. KTBC-DT can't stay on channel 56 after February 17, 2009. I don't know their final channel election, but I'd guess that it will be channel 7. I don't have any personal experience with the Lacrosse, but it's not designed for reception of channel 7. The Square Shooter looks much like the Lacrosse, should work on channel 7, and last I checked it was less expensive.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/12367888
> 
> 
> In your case KTBC-DT is on channel 56. KTBC-DT can't stay on channel 56 after February 17, 2009. I don't know their final channel election, but I'd guess that it will be channel 7.



Yes, KTBC-DT has elected to return to channel 7 in '09.


There are very few MSA's that won't have at least 1 major station on VHF after the analog shut-down.


Is the Square Shooter really effective for VHF-High? HDTV Primer didn't have a glowing view for its performance on VHF-Low or High. It seems to be vertically polarized. Is it vertically polarized for FM reception?

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/SquareShooter.html 


For this range it might work, if tilted.


----------



## lemmalone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tgw13* /forum/post/12366758
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks again and I welcome any other thoughts.



Lowes has a Philips antenna that looks like the Square Shooter etc. I think it's about $40. I don't know if it's any good, but if you can return it, it could provide a cheap no risk solution. I agree with holl_ands that a bowtie might be hung unobtrusively outside, and if you want to experiment very cheaply you can make one pretty easily. The thread below has lots of instructions.

http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index...opic=9613&st=0


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/12368186
> 
> 
> Is the Square Shooter really effective for VHF-High? HDTV Primer didn't have a glowing view for its performance on VHF-Low or High. It seems to be vertically polarized.
> 
> 
> For this range it might work, if tilted.



I did not know that the Square Shooter was vertically polarized on channels 7-13. Mounting it tilted (with one of the corners up) sounds like a workable solution.


----------



## tgw13

Hmmmm, seems like I would need to be pretty dead on when angling and mounting the SS. Has anyone had any experience with this one?

HDTV Indoor/Outdoor Directional Antenna


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/12367888
> 
> 
> The Lacrosse is not intended for VHF reception. You may not care about KAKW-DT on channel 13, but consider that some UHF stations will be moving back to VHF. In your case KTBC-DT is on channel 56. KTBC-DT can't stay on channel 56 after February 17, 2009. I don't know their final channel election, but I'd guess that it will be channel 7. I don't have any personal experience with the Lacrosse, but it's not designed for reception of channel 7. The Square Shooter looks much like the Lacrosse, should work on channel 7, and last I checked it was less expensive.



Bob Chase (Houston Station Engineer) compared signal levels across TV band for 8 outdoor antennas:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2post6245872 


Although CH7 was not active in Houston, you can look at the 180.5 MHz "hump" just above CH7

(as well as other VHF channels) to see that the CM-4228 8-Bay "UHF" antenna outperforms

the SS-1000 VHF/UHF by about 10 dB. Square-shooter is pretty pathetic for VHF....


PS: The "hump" was due to a datacasting sub-carrier on CH8.


Additional, supporting performance data was summarized here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ic#post9332997 

Note that Kerry Cozad included the SS-1000 in an calibrated outdoor antenna range test.


============================================

I haven't seen any equivalent data for the A-D Lacrosse, however their website has a gain chart

showing about 4 dBi gain for CH7....betcha that's more than SS-1000....


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tgw13* /forum/post/12373318
> 
> 
> Hmmmm, seems like I would need to be pretty dead on when angling and mounting the SS. Has anyone had any experience with this one?
> 
> HDTV Indoor/Outdoor Directional Antenna



AVS user "jhb50" had unexpected success 95 miles due East of L.A. stations on Mt Wilson,

using the Radio Shack 15-2187 "Cheese Cake?" antenna:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...50#post9468924 


I was really surprised, given a group of nearby stations only 4 miles on the "backside" of the antenna.

So the built-in Preamp no doubt also has high overload tolerance....given imperfect fence "shielding"....


Note that since he is feeding a Dish vip622 (which does not support NTSC analog channels),

he can't tell us how well the RS 15-2187 works for VHF.


----------



## nybbler

According to the FCC database, KTBC is broadcasting with circular polarization and therefore the (linear) polarization of the antenna shouldn't matter. With a full power station 11 miles away, you don't need much antenna, anything with positive gain will likely work.


----------



## Landlubber




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tgw13* /forum/post/12373318
> 
> 
> Hmmmm, seems like I would need to be pretty dead on when angling and mounting the SS. Has anyone had any experience with this one?
> 
> HDTV Indoor/Outdoor Directional Antenna




I own this antenna and love it. I live 60 miles east of LA (don't have cable or satellite) and when I recently (a month ago) purchased an HDTV I went to RS and bought this antenna. All I did was stick it up in the attic space and point it in the general direction of the transmitters. It's not even rigidly mounted to anything; it's just sitting vertically on the insulation. Without any fine tuning or adjustments I get all the local HD and SD signals from Channels 2 (CBS), 4 (NBC), 5 (CW), 7 (ABC), 9 (Ind/CBS), 11 (Fox), PBS (28 & 50), including the all-weather and all-news broadcasts from NBC and ABC and a plethora of other UHF broadcasts. For some reason we only get the analog signal for Channel 13 (MyNetwork). According to antennaweb I need a "violet" antenna; according to the chart at 2150.com we are just outside of the broadcast range of the transmitter.


I have no experience with other similar antennas, but I am very satisfied with this one.


Related to my range limitation, I am not a gearhead, and I did not see an obvious (external) adjustment for this antenna. Is there anything I can do the improve on what I already think is a good thing?

*Late Add:* To clarify the VHF situation for me, we do get decent SD signals from the stations in the VHF band (2 thru 13) compared to what we had with the "rabbit ears" we used previously. Even though we do not get the digital version of Channel 13 (see comment above), we do receive their analog signal...


----------



## cpcat

Pics of two horizontal quads (DAT 75's and Triax UNIX100A's) for those who might be interested.


Current preamp is the Sitco PA24.

Combiner is a Lindsay quad uhf combiner.

Spacing is 27 inches.


----------



## Landlubber

Thanks, holl_ands. I now have some experimenting to do.


----------



## holl_ands

For anyone trying to follow this multi-threaded exchenage, I posted a

signal level analysis response to your query in the New To OTA Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=611957&page=3 

Nearby KSGA is preventing reception of KCOP-DT....

Careful antenna pointing and chicken wire "fence" is first thing to try.....


----------



## ishcm

I just got a new HDTV and am new to this. I want to get OTA HD channels, but am not sure which antenna to get. Can anyone recommend one? My budget is no more than $100 (though the cheaper the better) for this and I prefer an indoor one, so I don't have to deal with all the hassle of going on the roof or through the attic. Any suggestions?


----------



## holl_ands

Where are you?

At least zipcode and preferably nearby cross streets....


----------



## ishcm

I'm located at 92870


----------



## IDRick

Hello,


I presently have two HDTV's supplied by cable co DVR's. I am considering changing to satellite service and adding an antenna for OTA locals. I went to Antenna web and found the following info:


Ant type Call sign Chan Netw. Compass Miles Freq

==============================================

green - uhf KISU-DT 10.1 PBS 257° 29.8 17

red - vhf KIDK 3 CBS 256° 29.8 3

red - uhf KIDK-DT 3.1 CBS 256° 29.9 36

red - vhf KIFI 8 ABC 256° 29.6 8

red - vhf KPVI 6 NBC 186° 42.4 6

red - uhf KPVI-DT 6.1 NBC 186° 42.4 23

red - uhf KPIF 15 CW 194° 49.5 15

red - uhf KFXP 31 FOX 186° 42.4 31

red - vhf KISU 10 PBS 257° 29.8 10



I am about a half mile south of an airport. The 257 degree compass orientation would cross the west end of the runway and 186 degrees is nearly due south of the airport. In talking with the sales folks at the local big box stores, they say most people are able to tune in the channels that are ~30 miles away with an indoor antenna. The ones further south are a bit more problematic.


I have visited with a local satellite installer for both Dish and Direct. They also do OTA antenna installs. They are expensive at $250 for the installation. The installers recommended a Winegard PR 7032. Any thoughts on this antenna for my application? Are there smaller antennas that would work just as well? If needed, my zip is 83402. The terrain is flat between my home and the two broadcast locations (compass orientation 257 and 186).


Thank you for any assistance you can provide!


All the best,


Rick


----------



## Landlubber

I understand rotating my antenna to improve KCOP/minimize KSGA. Can you give me a better idea of what to do with the chicken wire? See my post at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=611957&page=3 .


----------



## mlmahon

I think that the Winegard PR 7032 would be marginal in your situation. I'd go with the Channel Master CM3679. It would probably perform well with no dropouts in all weather/atmosphere/aircraft conditions. Use an antenna preamp if your coax run is more than 50 feet. Since this antenna has a narrow beam width of 30 degreees you'll probably need a rotor if you can't (or don't want to) manually reposition for aiming at the transmitter towers. 15 to 20 foot mast ought to be good.


----------



## Nourdmrolnmt1

okay, i need a good indoor antennae, i cant get ANYTHING on the stupid Terk i bought.


my situation from antennae web.


* yellow - uhf WVPX-DT 59 ION AKRON OH TBD 225° 27.7 59

* green - uhf WDLI-DT 39.1 TBN CANTON OH 225° 28.6 39

green - uhf W51BI 51 TBN KIRTLAND OH 351° 5.6 51

green - uhf WVPX 23 ION AKRON OH 225° 27.8 23

red - uhf WBNX 55 CW AKRON OH 278° 22.4 55

red - uhf WOIO 19 CBS SHAKER HEIGHTS OH 278° 22.4 19

* red - vhf WOIO-DT 19.1 CBS SHAKER HEIGHTS OH 278° 22.4 10

red - vhf WJW 8 FOX CLEVELAND OH 274° 23.5 8

* red - uhf WJW-DT 8.1 FOX CLEVELAND OH 274° 23.5 31

red - vhf WKYC 3 NBC CLEVELAND OH 278° 22.1 3

* red - vhf WKYC-DT 3.1 NBC CLEVELAND OH 278° 22.1 2

red - vhf WEWS 5 ABC CLEVELAND OH 276° 23.6 5

* red - uhf WEWS-DT 5.1 ABC CLEVELAND OH 276° 23.6 15

red - uhf WOAC 67 SAH CANTON OH 199° 19.5 67

red - uhf WVIZ 25 PBS CLEVELAND OH 271° 24.9 25

blue - uhf WUAB 43 MNT LORAIN OH 277° 23.7 43

blue - uhf WQHS 61 UNI Cleveland OH 277° 22.7 61

* blue - uhf WQHS-DT 61.1 UNI Cleveland OH 277° 22.7 34

blue - uhf WNEO 45 PBS ALLIANCE OH 159° 37.8 45

blue - uhf WEAO 49 PBS AKRON OH 231° 28.5 49

* blue - uhf WBNX-DT 55.1 CW AKRON OH 278° 22.4 30

violet - uhf WKBN 27 CBS YOUNGSTOWN OH 133° 39.3 27

* violet - uhf WEAO-DT 50.1 PBS AKRON OH 231° 28.5 50

violet - uhf WDLI 17 TBN CANTON OH 189° 36.9 17

* violet - uhf WUAB-DT 43.1 MNT LORAIN OH 277° 23.7 28


----------



## Rick0725

stations coded red and and above are going to be a challenge for most indoor antennas...you can try a radio shack model 15-2187. if it does not work you can return it. You will at least have a feel where you stand reception wise in your home.


Your market has network stations in the high and low band VHf which are difficult to receive indoors to begin with under favorable conditions. Rabbit ear and squareshooter style antennas therefore would be out of the question there. All uhf are more "forgiving" reception wise.


If not successful with the above rs antenna, you may be SOL for indoors.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...Page=familyyou .


you are going to need a combo vhf / uhf antenna based on your channel profile...a uhf antenna alone will not suit your needs unfortunately.


a winegard hd7082p combo minimum mounted outside with an hdp269 preamp may work. hd7084p would be better.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Landlubber* /forum/post/12404536
> 
> 
> I understand rotating my antenna to improve KCOP/minimize KSGA. Can you give me a better idea of what to do with the chicken wire? See my post at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=611957&page=3 .



Chicken wire is commonly found in stucco walls, where it greatly reduces indoor signal levels.


You can also use it in your attic to reduce the signal level coming from KSGA.

It acts as an electromagnetic "mirror", reflecting KSGA's signals away from your antenna.


A "wall" of chicken wire can be strung up between the antenna and KSGA.

It should be about 6-8 feet high (measured vertically) and at least 8-12 feet wide.

In your case, you might want to extend it further to the "left" in order to also reduce

signals coming from analog KVCR & KVCR-DT (6 miles, 193 degrees).


To minimize antenna perturbations, keep it away from the antenna (6-8 feet away is best)

and make sure it doesn't come close to the line-of-sight towards Mt Wilson.


Staple it along the sloping ceiling starting at the highest point and as you get closer

to the narrow spots you could simply let it "hang" down vertically.

Obviously rafters are going to get in the way so you'll have to figure how to work around them,

such as using "strips" of interconnected sections with only small "holes" for the rafters themselves.


It can conform to the shape of the attic if you want or you could string it perpendicular to the

line between antenna and KSGA...doesn't really matter. And doesn't have to be "straight and even".


And it doesn't have to be connected to a ground wire, but you can if you want to.


Sorry I don't have (as Arlo Guthrie would say):

"27 eight-by-ten color glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph

on the back of each one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence"....


----------



## Landlubber

Your description is clear enough that I understand what I need to do. And thanks for bringing back fond memories of "Alice's Restaurant".


Appreciate your help.


Glenn.


----------



## flopdanuts

Is there any difference between a silver sensor and the Terk HDTVa , in terms of quality uhf signal reception? Thanks


----------



## jtcrusader




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ishcm* /forum/post/12398709
> 
> 
> I just got a new HDTV and am new to this. I want to get OTA HD channels, but am not sure which antenna to get. Can anyone recommend one? My budget is no more than $100 (though the cheaper the better) for this and I prefer an indoor one, so I don't have to deal with all the hassle of going on the roof or through the attic. Any suggestions?



Not sure where you are...but I, too, was on a budget. I just got the Radio Shack 15-2187 indoor/outdoor directional antenna. I live 55 miles from the main towers and get 75-80% signal. My only regret is that I did not do this 6 months ago. I mounted it inside the house on a plant ledge overlooking the living room.


----------



## strpyw

I live in Los Gatos , California, zip 95032.I also just bought the RS 15-2187 and mounted on a lamp post on the second story, aiming at Mt. Sutro. Great reception for all the stations. but cannot get those from Mt. San Bruno, namely channel 2 and channel 11. Those are VHF, I tried varying angles horizontally/vertically, no avail. Any suggestion what to do next.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *flopdanuts* /forum/post/12466561
> 
> 
> Is there any difference between a silver sensor and the Terk HDTVa , in terms of quality uhf signal reception? Thanks



UHF performance is about the same comparing unamplified Terk HDTVi to

unamplified Silver Sensor:
http://www.amazon.com/tag/silver%20sensor 

However, Terk HDTVi has collapsible rabbit ears for VHF that are not found in

unamplified Silver Sensor:
http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Technolog...dp/B0001FV36E/ 


Performance is also about the same comparing the amplified Terk HDTVa to

the amplified Silver Sensor (both have rabbit ears for VHF):
http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PHDTV3.../dp/B000B58VNM 

Note the "kid-friendly" packaging....this would be my choice....


However, amplified antennas should not be used within about 5 miles of

local towers to prevent overload and bear in mind most indoor antennas

are insufficient when you're distant from towers.


----------



## JawKnee

I recently moved my Comcast/Motorola STB downstairs for use with the new plasma, so instead of renting another STB, I want to try to get HD OTA on the other HDTV upstairs.


I went to Radio Shack and picked up 2 antennas, but I don't think either is working. Perhaps, I don't have either setup correctly?


In any event, I picked up the 15-1892 and the 15-1868 .


Below is the info from TV Fool (zip of 98059):












Should either one of the antennas that I bought work for me? Thanks and Happy Holidays!


----------



## DECdaze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JawKnee* /forum/post/12578757
> 
> 
> I recently moved my Comcast/Motorola STB downstairs for use with the new plasma, so instead of renting another STB, I want to try to get HD OTA on the other HDTV upstairs.
> 
> 
> I went to Radio Shack and picked up 2 antennas, but I don't think either is working. Perhaps, I don't have either setup correctly?
> 
> 
> In any event, I picked up the 15-1892 and the 15-1868 .
> 
> 
> Below is the info from TV Fool (zip of 98059):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Should either one of the antennas that I bought work for me? Thanks and Happy Holidays!



Both should work, though the first may have better directionallity. Since this is the upstairs location, you should have decent signal access. You are within 20 miles of the broadcast towers.


You might want to see if the antenna works better when you place it near a window facing toward your local broadcast towers. It's possible you can not receive the signals through your siding. For example, foil lined insulation can turn your house into a virtual Faraday Cage:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage 


Or your house might be screened by trees. Or it might be down in a valley. Lots of factors can limit the signal strength from the broadcast towers.


Sometimes it's necessary to place an antenna in the attic or on the roof to attain the signal level needed.


----------



## johnstonamerica

Just set up my HDTV and am now looking to receive some OTA local channels... I'm sorry not to have read through 100+ pages, hope someone out there doesn't mind offering me some advice!


Here is my info from TVFool:




I would like to receive as many of the listed channels as possible. I can mount on top of my house (about 30 ft) and price and size aren't an issue, although I'd prefer not to use a rotor. Mainly just trying to get the networks in HD! D*sh Network is my satellite provider if that makes a difference, and I am signed up for local channels.


Thanks in advance, hope someone can help, let me know if you need more info!


edited to add: Is there one brand of antenna that is definitely heads above the rest for rural areas trying to receive HD?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnstonamerica* /forum/post/12601551
> 
> 
> I would like to receive as many of the listed channels as possible. I can mount on top of my house (about 30 ft) and price and size aren't an issue, although I'd prefer not to use a rotor. Mainly just trying to get the networks in HD! D*sh Network is my satellite provider if that makes a difference, and I am signed up for local channels.



The requirement to go without a rotator makes things hard for you, but that's not a bad decision.


I'd opt for an all-channel antenna aimed at the Albany DTV tower plus a UHF only aimed at Hartford. The cheap and easy method to share directions is a simple A/B switch. To add the antennas together full time you should get a Jointenna tuned to channel 32 (halfway between 31 and 33, which would work for both WFSB-DT and WTIC-DT. The problem then is that PBS from Albany, WMHT-DT, is on channel 34, which won't make it through the Jointenna and your other choice for PBS is on channel 45, the same as WCWN analog, which will interfere with WEDH-DT.


I'd guess that the Albany stations would be HD on Dish Network sometime in 2008. As such, you could get a Winegard HD7082P now, aim it at Albany, and turn it toward Hartford when you get locals in HD from Echostar.


If you can't get the stations with just the antenna, you are a good candidate for a preamp.


----------



## johnstonamerica

Thanks for the info Tower Guy!


I was looking at the Winegard HD7082P earlier today as one of my choices, so it's nice to hear someone who knows what they are talking about recommending the same antenna I was already looking at!







I'm guessing Winegard is a top name..


If I pointed the Winegard at Albany now do you know how many stations I'd be looking at getting without pointing another antenna towards Hartford? I can't seem to figure out where all of these channels are coming from!


I'm also a newbie when it comes to Jointennas - is this a brand name, how does it work, and where can I get one?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnstonamerica* /forum/post/12604562
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info Tower Guy!
> 
> 
> I was looking at the Winegard HD7082P earlier today as one of my choices, so it's nice to hear someone who knows what they are talking about recommending the same antenna I was already looking at!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing Winegard is a top name..
> 
> 
> If I pointed the Winegard at Albany now do you know how many stations I'd be looking at getting without pointing another antenna towards Hartford? I can't seem to figure out where all of these channels are coming from!
> 
> 
> I'm also a newbie when it comes to Jointennas - is this a brand name, how does it work, and where can I get one?



The Winegard antenna performs well and can survive some ice and wind. My experience with an all-channel Radio Shack antenna wasn't so good, but their UHF only has been on my roof for more than 20 years.


Your tvfool data shows which stations are strong enough to work readily available antennas. Look at the color code on the line for the station. Yellow ones are relatively easy, pink ones work when the antenna is installed with a preamp in an optimum location. In your case, The only Albany station that isn't yellow is the CW affiliate, WCWN. You would add a preamp to eliminate any dropouts, to add a splitter for multiple TVs, or to compensate for a long cable run.


Here is info on Jointennas: http://www.warrenelectronics.com/ant...Jointennas.htm


----------



## johnstonamerica

great help - I've sent you a pm!


----------



## keithbickford

Often the terms are used interchangeably and each segment of the industry has their own definition. Universally accepted: A preamp amplifies the signal at the beginning of the signal chain (antenna) to reduce noise that lines and other components may impart on the signal. An amp of course is a more general term and does not imply what type of amp or where it is located. However, by not calling an amp a preamp, it is probably a final amp and used just prior to the last segment of the signal chain.


----------



## scsiguy72

So much information my head is swimming.










OK So this is what I think I understand. I live in the Bay Area and I am about 35 Miles from the towers. CBS and ABC are digital HD on UHF and NBC is VHF Only 10 compass points apart. If I get a DB8 and aim at the towers I will not get the VHF signals?


The only other NBC that broadcast on UHF is about 45 Miles away and 40 compass points differant.


So Directional is NOT a good idea? What would be a good option to get both?


----------



## DECdaze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scsiguy72* /forum/post/12639263
> 
> 
> So much information my head is swimming.



Let me make it swim some more. A good website with HD and antenna information is:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scsiguy72* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> OK So this is what I think I understand. I live in the Bay Area and I am about 35 Miles from the towers. CBS and ABC are digital HD on UHF and NBC is VHF Only 10 compass points apart. If I get a DB8 and aim at the towers I will not get the VHF signals?



Depends on the antenna. A Channel Master 4228 can pull in the upper VHF channels (channel 7-13). It's not all that strong, so you might want a dedicated VHF antenna for NBC.


Also, is NBC really on VHF as a digital signal? I doubt it. That channel might move back to VHF, but it might not. One of the channels in my area will move the digital signal back to VHF channel 13 when Feb 2009 roles around. Until then I watch the UHF HD simulcast of the analog signal on channel 13.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scsiguy72* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> The only other NBC that broadcast on UHF is about 45 Miles away and 40 compass points differant.
> 
> 
> So Directional is NOT a good idea? What would be a good option to get both?



Really? I would think by now most major networks have all their affiliates broadcasting both a analog and digital signal. You can check with the TVFool:

http://www.tvfool.com/ 


This site provides signal strength and direction based on your location and height. For example, it will show you what happens if the antenna is indoors or on the roof.


If you could provide your just zipcode, we might be able to provide more detailed suggestions.


By the way, at those distance you will want to preamplify the signal.


No doubt others can provide more detailed responses.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scsiguy72* /forum/post/12639263
> 
> 
> So much information my head is swimming.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK So this is what I think I understand. I live in the Bay Area and I am about 35 Miles from the towers. CBS and ABC are digital HD on UHF and NBC is VHF Only 10 compass points apart. If I get a DB8 and aim at the towers I will not get the VHF signals?



The DB-8 has poor performance for upper VHF. The Channel Master 4228 is better - in terms of the 8 Bay bowties - for upper VHF because of the large reflection screen. If you want help with antenna recommendations, your zip code is much more useful so we can look up the local stations and your distance to them. We can also look up the final digital channel assignments for the local stations.


To answer the other poster: 'Also, is NBC really on VHF as a digital signal? I doubt it.". Yes, it is. KNTV-DT NBC 11 in San Jose is broadcasting on VHF 12. Don't assume that because in your market all the analog VHF stations are UHF, that this is true everywhere. In Las Vegas for example, they have 5 analog and 4 digital stations on VHF. Las Vegas does not have any nearby cities filling up other VHF slots, so in Vegas, some of the local stations could use VHF for digital broadcasting from the start (unfortunately with the NBC station on VHF 2 - ouch!).


----------



## holl_ands

We need your location (e.g. zipcode plus nearby cross streets)

to check for nearby local broadcast towers and intervening hills.


Or DIY and enter your location into www.tvfool.com and post

BOTH the Analog and Digital *.png files.


----------



## scsiguy72




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/12642108
> 
> 
> We need your location (e.g. zipcode plus nearby cross streets)
> 
> to check for nearby local broadcast towers and intervening hills.
> 
> 
> Or DIY and enter your location into and post
> 
> BOTH the Analog and Digital *.png files.



I live in Livermore, CA Zip code 94550 main street nearby is El Padro Dr


Thanks for the help!


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scsiguy72* /forum/post/12643212
> 
> 
> I live in Livermore, CA Zip code 94550 main street nearby is El Padro Dr



I added 300' for the antenna height under options for your zip code into antennaweb.org to get a more complete list of digital stations as antennaweb is conservative on digital reception. The color codes this results in are not valid, but even with 300', I get purple color codes for your zip code which strongly suggest you should be looking at a rooftop antenna. The attic might work depending on the construction of the house.


Antennaweb shows the following digital stations:


* yellow - vhf KNTV-DT 11.1 NBC SAN JOSE CA 259° 39.3 12

* yellow - uhf KTFK-DT 64.1 SAH STOCKTON CA 311° 19.4 62

* red - uhf KTNC-DT 42.1 AZA CONCORD CA 315° 19.5 63

* violet - uhf KTVU-DT 2.1 FOX OAKLAND CA 266° 40.8 56

* violet - uhf KCSM-DT 43.1 PBS SAN MATEO CA 266° 40.8 43

* violet - uhf KQED-DT 9.1 PBS SAN FRANCISCO CA 266° 40.8 30

* violet - uhf KRON-DT 4.1 MNT SAN FRANCISCO CA 266° 40.8 57

* violet - uhf KGO-DT 7.1 ABC SAN FRANCISCO CA 266° 40.8 24

* violet - uhf KMTP-DT 33.1 IND SAN FRANCISCO CA 266° 40.8 33

* violet - uhf KPIX-DT 5.1 CBS SAN FRANCISCO CA 266° 40.8 29

* violet - uhf KCNS-DT 38.1 SAH SAN FRANCISCO CA 266° 40.8 39

* violet - uhf KOVR-DT 13.1 CBS STOCKTON CA 1° 42.5 25

* violet - uhf KBWB-DT 20.1 IND SAN FRANCISCO CA 266° 40.8 19


The San Francisco stations are around 40 miles and in the same direction, so a directional antenna will work. The Sacramento / Stockton stations are over 90° away at some 44 miles to the north. KGO-DT ABC 7 will switch from UHF 24 to VHF 7 after the analog shutdown in February, 2009. So the antenna needs to cover upper VHF 7 to 13 and UHF.


With the 90° difference between the two cluster of stations, you should get a rotator so you can switch between the cities and tweak the aim. The CM 4228 is a possibility although it may not have enough gain for upper VHF. Another possibility is a good VHF/UHF antenna such as a Winegard HD7084P. What you should do is plug your exact address into antennaweb.org (with an antenna height of 100') as well as tvfool.com to see what they predict for signal strength.


----------



## scsiguy72




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/12644163
> 
> 
> With the 90° difference between the two cluster of stations, you should get a rotator so you can switch between the cities and tweak the aim. The CM 4228 is a possibility although it may not have enough gain for upper VHF. Another possibility is a good VHF/UHF antenna such as a Winegard HD7084P. What you should do is plug your exact address into antennaweb.org (with an antenna height of 100') as well as tvfool.com to see what they predict for signal strength.




OK thanks for your patience. I think I am starting to understand.


A few more facts:


I plan a rooftop installation

I can go rotor, not my first choice, but if that is best, I'm in.

I really don't want to go to high with my mast; mainly I don't want to use Guide Wires

My house has 2 chimneys, so I was hoping to strap a 10-15 foot mast to one

Preamps and Amps are no problem; I will split the signal once if it does not affect the main set too much (Bedroom set is old SD TV)


I still don't understand how to read the signal strengths


The address of the installation is 12xx El Padro Dr, Livermore CA 94550


I really thank you for your help. Sometimes this whole process starts to get overwhelming and I start to think about staying with D*TV.










My main goal is to set up a good install so I can get OTA Locals and save $65+ a month, so I don't mind putting out a little extra upfront


----------



## Konrad2

> I live in the Bay Area and I am about 35 Miles from the towers.

> CBS and ABC are digital HD on UHF and NBC is VHF Only 10 compass points apart.


Are these the only TV stations you care about? No PBS, Fox, UPN, WB/CW, etc?


> If I get a DB8 and aim at the towers I will not get the VHF signals?


The DB8 is intended for UHF only. You might get lucky and get good enough

VHF reception from it. If not, add a VHF-HI antenna such as the Winegard YA-1713.


>> With the 90DEG difference between the two cluster of stations, you should get a rotator

> I can go rotor, not my first choice, but if that is best, I'm in.


With a rotor, you can't watch/record stations from two directions at once.

And how do you get a DVR to control the rotor? Consider multiple antennas instead.


> My house has 2 chimneys, so I was hoping to strap a 10-15 foot mast to one


Be aware that exhaust fumes will contribute to corrosion. You might try

seeing if you can get good reception from the attic.


----------



## Amber O'Doul

I live on a hill, but 20 miles away from the only two transmitting stations I am interested in. They are separated by only about 10° All my stations are digital CH 13-38


I am using rabbit-ears right now, and they work OK, but I sometimes get digital artifacs when it is snowing or raining. My upstairs TV gets better reception than the downstairs (as one might expect)


Any recommendations ?

Thanks.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scsiguy72* /forum/post/12647721
> 
> 
> OK thanks for your patience. I think I am starting to understand.
> 
> 
> A few more facts:
> 
> 
> I plan a rooftop installation
> 
> I can go rotor, not my first choice, but if that is best, I'm in.
> 
> I really don't want to go to high with my mast; mainly I don't want to use Guide Wires
> 
> My house has 2 chimneys, so I was hoping to strap a 10-15 foot mast to one
> 
> Preamps and Amps are no problem; I will split the signal once if it does not affect the main set too much (Bedroom set is old SD TV)
> 
> 
> I still don't understand how to read the signal strengths
> 
> 
> The address of the installation is 12xx El Padro Dr, Livermore CA 94550
> 
> 
> I really thank you for your help. Sometimes this whole process starts to get overwhelming and I start to think about staying with D*TV.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My main goal is to set up a good install so I can get OTA Locals and save $65+ a month, so I don't mind putting out a little extra upfront



Below are snapshots from RADIO MOBILE Propagation Prediction Program.


Sutro Towers is the futuristic triple tower structure on top of hill in central S.F.

NBC (CH12) comes from a nearby hill SE of Daly City with only a very small

(negligible) difference in angle of arrival.


"RX Relative" is the amount of "excess" gain needed to overcome multipath

fading and seasonal variations....at least 20 dB and preferably 30+ dB is needed.


"Worse case" CW and FOX stations had "RX Relative" of about 40 dB, presuming

Preamp and moderate gain antenna.

Without Preamp, this will probably shrink to barely 30 dB Fade Margin.

Actual numbers would be somewhat less due to various other loss factors,

as I've explained in spread sheet calculators previously posted herein....


Any moderate to high gain UHF antenna will bring in DTV stations from Sutro Towers.

That's all of the networks plus others listed in tvfool at 37.8 miles (280 degrees).


NBC CH12, the "i" network and KTSF-DT broadcast from Daly City Towers, which

is slightly south of Sutro Towers. The Fade Margin with and without Preamp

was about same as for CW + FOX.


You don't need a rotator if these are adequate for your needs.

If you want MyNetwork (KQCA-DT), you'll need a rotator and may be iffy even with

a Preamp. Weaker stations are even less likely, e.g."RX(dbm)" below -100 dBm....


W-G HDP-269 Preamp or one of the other low-gain W-G models will avoid

desensitization problems from nearby stations. (Skip the high gain CM-7777.)


The CM-4228 "should" pick up CH12...but if you still want analog CH2-6,

a big combo would be better.


You can mount a CM-4228 on a pole attached to either just the ledger

board or on a pole attached to the building for rigidity (see page 12):
http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/AntInstallGuide.pdf 

and also:
http://www.summitsource.com/winegard...0c7cbdb54fc846 
http://www.summitsource.com/product_...oducts_id=5178 
http://www.summitsource.com/antenna-...b4-p-6483.html


----------



## miztahsparklez

I'm in need of an HD antenna in the office located in Emeryville, CA. I'm right on the water, overlooking san francisco, 13 floors up. An indoor antenna is a must. The antenna must also receive signal through one conference room into an adjacent room across the hall. Think of it like the conference room is in a larger O and the media room is in a smaller o maybe 10 feet away. the conference room is a little wider than the hallway which would put it at 10-20ft.


i did a quick tvfool lookup, and it appears everything is green. Since this is an office setup, money not being an issue, whats the best indoor antenna i can get?


thanks in advance


----------



## robandjeanne

I've got two UHF antennas in my attic pointing in different directions. I've also got two CM7777 pre-amps on these two antennas which I need to overcome cable loss. What I want to do is amplify both UHF antennas before combining and run the combined signal down the same cable. Since the pre-amps (PA) are in the attic, and the power supply (PS) for them is downstairs, one way I could do this is use a splitter/combiner between the PS and the PA. However the splitter/combiner would have to be able to pass DC power to the PA. Does anyone know if they make splitter/combiners that will pass DC? A corrolary of this question is can two PAs operate off one PS?


Another way to do this would be to actually put the two PSs in the attic with the two PAs. I could then combine after the PA and feed down one cable. There are two problems with this however. The PSs are not designed to operate in extreme temperatures like the PAs and might fail. Also it is nice to be able to control the power to the PA from downstairs so you don't have to leave the PA on all the time.


----------



## colinfindlay

Hi,


I'm having some weird problems and I was hoping someone could help me out. I've rewired my aerial, as the cable was over several pieces of varying quality. I've now got a single 20m (60ft) run of RG6, however connecting it isn't working as expected.

Currently the setup is


AerialF-Type ConnectorRG6 CableTV Coax connectorTV


This is about as simple as it gets, although a splitter will be inserted when things are working correctly.


What doesn't work: Well - when the shield of the cable is connected to the F-Type I get no signal - only static. I actually get a decent signal with just cable and my finger on the core, and then as soon as the outer part of the connector touches the shield - no signal. Without the shield connected to the F-Type the signal is not too bad - but with some interference.

Why is this?? - I've checked the both connectors throughly - and there is no rouge short between the core and the shield.


Currently I have Analogue SDTV - but will move to OTA DTV in about 6 months. I'd like the picture as clear as possible - which it used to be before I touched anything!



Col.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *robandjeanne* /forum/post/12656184
> 
> 
> I've got two UHF antennas in my attic pointing in different directions. I've also got two CM7777 pre-amps on these two antennas which I need to overcome cable loss. What I want to do is amplify both UHF antennas before combining and run the combined signal down the same cable. Since the pre-amps (PA) are in the attic, and the power supply (PS) for them is downstairs, one way I could do this is use a splitter/combiner between the PS and the PA. However the splitter/combiner would have to be able to pass DC power to the PA. Does anyone know if they make splitter/combiners that will pass DC? A corrolary of this question is can two PAs operate off one PS?
> 
> 
> Another way to do this would be to actually put the two PSs in the attic with the two PAs. I could then combine after the PA and feed down one cable. There are two problems with this however. The PSs are not designed to operate in extreme temperatures like the PAs and might fail. Also it is nice to be able to control the power to the PA from downstairs so you don't have to leave the PA on all the time.



Check out "SATELLITE" RF Splitters at your local electronic store or home center.

Some have "DC PASS" on one port and some have it on BOTH ports

(e.g. RS 16-2568 and Zenith ZDS5010):
http://www.radioshack.com/sm-satelli...i-2103928.html 
http://www.amazon.com/ZENITH-ZDS-501.../dp/B00009W3X0 


========================================

I don't see any DC current draw specs for CM-7777

(you could measure it with a VOM meter....plus maybe 20% when it's really hot).

FWIW: Footnote for similar Spartan series says they'll draw 100 ma current

using SAT Receiver as DC source.


The max DC output current (in ma) should be on the label on your DC Power Module.


----------



## andy.s.lee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *miztahsparklez* /forum/post/12656029
> 
> 
> I'm in need of an HD antenna in the office located in Emeryville, CA. I'm right on the water, overlooking san francisco, 13 floors up. An indoor antenna is a must. The antenna must also receive signal through one conference room into an adjacent room across the hall. Think of it like the conference room is in a larger O and the media room is in a smaller o maybe 10 feet away. the conference room is a little wider than the hallway which would put it at 10-20ft.
> 
> 
> i did a quick tvfool lookup, and it appears everything is green. Since this is an office setup, money not being an issue, whats the best indoor antenna i can get?
> 
> 
> thanks in advance



Doesn't look like anyone else has responded, so here's my two cents...


First, a word of warning. Many office buildings use a reflective coating on the windows that have metallic content. This can turn the entire building into the equivalant of a big metal box. This might make indoor reception extremely difficult.


Even if the windows are not a problem, there may be rebar and/or foil-backed insulation in the walls that will also make reception difficult.


Assuming that your building composition is cooperative, then I have a few questions:


1) Is this a temporary setup or long term?

2) Are you interested in all digital channels or just one?

3) Can you access the space above the drop-ceiling?

4) Are you willing to ask for roof access (sometimes it's easier than you think)?

5) Are there any constraints on antenna visibility/appearance?




Until you answer those, here are some very general comments/recommendations:


- If your building is "easy", then a simple indoor antenna may be all that you need. The best compact set-top type antenna is the Philips PHDTV1 (UHF only) or Terk HDTVi (non-amplified version).


- For "tough" buildings, you'll want to try some really good outdoor antennas and use them inside. Two of the best outdoor antennas are the Channel Master 4228 and the Antennas Direct 91XG. Both are fairly large, so this is where appearance and placement may become an issue. These were designed to be mounted on a mast, so you may need to get creative.


- You might want to place the antenna in a different room or put it right against the window facing the transmitters. You could run a length of coax from the antenna to your media room, using the space above the drop-ceiling.


- For longer term installations and "really tough" buildings, you might want to see if the building manager is willing to let you put something on the roof. There should already be pre-existing roof entry points and cable-chases that run through the building. The work to do it is actually quite simple assuming you can work out the details with the landlord. I've done this on many occasions.




Best regards,

Andy


----------



## Intheswamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *miztahsparklez* /forum/post/12656029
> 
> 
> I'm in need of an HD antenna in the office located in Emeryville, CA. I'm right on the water, overlooking san francisco, 13 floors up. An indoor antenna is a must. The antenna must also receive signal through one conference room into an adjacent room across the hall. Think of it like the conference room is in a larger O and the media room is in a smaller o maybe 10 feet away. the conference room is a little wider than the hallway which would put it at 10-20ft.
> 
> 
> i did a quick tvfool lookup, and it appears everything is green. Since this is an office setup, money not being an issue, whats the best indoor antenna i can get?
> 
> 
> thanks in advance



As Andy stated above, you may need to try using an outdoor antenna but before you do, definitely start simple by picking up one of the set-top type of antenna and try it. If it doesn't work carry it back to the store and go on to bigger and better antennas. You never know...


I would think the 91XG would be more cumbersome in the confines of your office than the CM4228 would be...the 91XG being a LONG antenna where as the CM4228 is a flat, rectangular one. You might could even hide the CM4228 inside of a artistically painted box hanging on the wall. The 91XG will handle multi-path problems better than the CM4228 , though.


Either way you go it will be interesting to see how things work out being as the antenna appears to be enveloped within several layers of the building.


Something like this might be worth looking into, though I feel the CM4228 might be better... Ratshack antenna .


Best wishes with your project!

Ed


----------



## johnstonamerica

Hi all -


Hoping one of you experts can help me out.


I have Dish Network and wanted OTA locals in HD so just put an antenna on the roof this afternoon.


I have just installed a CM 3671 w/ a CM 7777 preamp. I have it pointed at the transmitter in Albany NY and I'm receiving FOX and NBC beautifully - signals of 90+ However, I can't even find ABC, CBS, and PBS which all are listed as being transmitted from the same tower. It looks like I am only getting VHF, but I was lead to believe the 3671 was a VHF/UHF and that the default setting for the 7777 was for both?


So I'm not sure if there is a setting on the antenna (never saw one), in the preamp, or maybe a dish network tuner setting? I have the VIP 622dvr.


I'm a bit confused (and disappointed), hopefully someone has an easy answer for me!


----------



## cpcat

The 7777 has a "uhf/combined" and "vhf/separate" input. Be sure you are connected to "uhf/combined". The internal switches should be set by default to "combined" and FM trap "in" which should be correct for you. If it still doesn't work, you'll need to disconnect the preamp, open it up, and check the internal switches.


----------



## johnstonamerica

Thanks cpcat - I'm thinking the same thing - though I'm sure I'm connected to the UHF combined...


Can you think of any other reason I'd be getting Fox & NBC so well and nothing else?


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnstonamerica* /forum/post/12699646
> 
> 
> Thanks cpcat - I'm thinking the same thing - though I'm sure I'm connected to the UHF combined...
> 
> 
> Can you think of any other reason I'd be getting Fox & NBC so well and nothing else?



I agree with cpcat, open the CM 7777 and check the switch settings and that the co-axial is connected to the combined input. Try manually tuning to 26.1, the actual broadcast channel for WTEN-DT and see if you get anything on the signal meter. You can manually enter the actual broadcast channel with many ATSC tuners.


----------



## MAX HD




Can you think of any other reason I'd be getting Fox & NBC so well and nothing else?[/QUOTE said:


> Yep,the tuner in the 622 is set to cable instead of antenna or off-air.


----------



## johnstonamerica

Thanks afiggatt - I've tried to manually scan but get absolutely no signal above the 12 (WNYT).


I'll have to climb up on the roof tomorrow am (it's freezing rain and dark here now







) and check the 7777.. I stupidly thought it would have been set to UHF by default and never opened it to check before I put it up!


----------



## johnstonamerica

Hey Max - where do I find that setting? I've checked and can't seem to find a place to change the 622 to antenna instead of cable..


----------



## johnstonamerica

ahh, n/m MAX - found it! You were right, I've found some more channels now!


The plot thickens however







I still can't get CBS.. hrm..


I now have:


Fox (XXA)

NBC (NYT)

ABC (TEN)

IND (TBY)


But not


CBS (RGB)

PBS (MHT)


How the heck can I get 4 from the same tower as the 2 I can't get? *scratches head*


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnstonamerica* /forum/post/12700254
> 
> 
> But not
> 
> 
> CBS (RGB)
> 
> PBS (MHT)
> 
> 
> How the heck can I get 4 from the same tower as the 2 I can't get? *scratches head*



WRGB (39) and WMHT (34) are on higher UHF frequencies than WTEN (26). Higher frequencies have a harder time bending around terrain and getting through other obstructions, which may be enough to make the difference in your case. I see that all of these signals are 2+ edge signals from the TV Fool plot.


A few more thoughts/questions:


1) What results are you getting for analog UHF?

2) Does the receiver show any signal strength for the missing DTV channels?

3) What is the strength for WTEN?

4) WTBY is coming in even though it is 96 degrees off of the main site. This appears to be close to a side lobe on the antenna, but I would suggest double checking your aim. Have you tested aiming the antenna at different angles as well?

5) Have you tried pointing your antenna to Hartford to check the results or is the view in that direction more difficult?


----------



## johnstonamerica

Hey Falcon_77!


I believe now that it is a pointing issue - I have been up on the roof this am and turned it a bit away from the WTBY and have now picked up CBS (WRGB) - the weird thing is that I have now lost ABC and the antenna seems to be pointed more North than Northwest.. maybe CBS is bouncing off of a hill or something?


In any case, I think it's just going to be touchy as I'm so far out and I may have to choose between ABC & CBS...


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnstonamerica* /forum/post/12705198
> 
> 
> In any case, I think it's just going to be touchy as I'm so far out and I may have to choose between ABC & CBS...



With your situation mainly requiring uhf and vhf hi, you could easily separate the two with either a uhf yagi like the antennasdirect xg91 or the cm4228 for uhf and use something like an antennacraft y10 7-13 for vhf hi. This would increase your performance, allow independent aiming for uhf and vhf, and you'd still have less windload on the mast compared to the 3671.


You'd need around 48 inch spacing on the mast between the two and I'd probably put the uhf higher up. You could probably get away with even less spacing if you had to but you'd just need to experiment. The spacing will affect the vhf performance first.


----------



## johnstonamerica

Thanks so much to everyone - I think instead of using two antennas (especially since I just bought this one) I may consider a rotor - I am now only missing FOX OTA but still have it via my dish so that may even be good enough until Dish gets the Albany networks to me in HD... who knows when that will be though










Thanks again to everyone who replied to me - awesome advice - friendly and informative!


----------



## Dirac

Sorry if this has been asked before--long thread. Is there anything wrong with installing a distribution amp and a preamp together? I have in mind the CM 3044 in line with the CM 7777. I do not want to use a 4-way splitter because of signal loss, but I am worried about amplifying noise too much if I use 2 amplifiers. Thanks.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dirac* /forum/post/12710766
> 
> 
> Sorry if this has been asked before--long thread. Is there anything wrong with installing a distribution amp and a preamp together? I have in mind the CM 3044 in line with the CM 7777. I do not want to use a 4-way splitter because of signal loss, but I am worried about amplifying noise too much if I use 2 amplifiers. Thanks.



In most cases a distribution amplifier will overload when used with a 7777 preamp. With a 7777 preamp a distribution amp is completely unnecessary, even when split 4 ways.


----------



## johnstonamerica

Great idea Rick but I'm not sure I want to go much higher with my mast.


Right now I have the 3' CM tripod holding a 5' mast with the 3671 on top. Wouldn't I have to get another mast - 8' to 10' in order to stack them? I don't want to have to put guide wires up..


I thought I was doing well to buy the CM 3671 as it stated "deep fringe" - Should I have considered another antenna if I wanted to try for all the channels with one unit?


----------



## johnstonamerica

ahh awesome - sounds pretty straight forward!


now I have a new problem










just watching CBS OTA and am noticing major "stuttering" of the picture - it will freeze for a fraction of a second, then catch up, then freeze again... very annoying










what is my problem now!!?? heheh


----------



## johnstonamerica

I should mention that it doesn't seem to stutter at all during commercials - and it is definitley worse in "action" scenes where there is quick movement...


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnstonamerica* /forum/post/12713487
> 
> 
> I should mention that it doesn't seem to stutter at all during commercials - and it is definitley worse in "action" scenes where there is quick movement...




I see that too. It may not be a reception problem.


----------



## johnstonamerica

ahh good to know - I'll wait it out.. thanks TG!


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnstonamerica* /forum/post/12713246
> 
> 
> ahh awesome - sounds pretty straight forward!



Just sticking a bug in your ear again. The antennacraft y10 7-13 is only around 30 bucks (last I checked) and will be significantly lighter/less load than keeping the 3671 up there. I'd say many of us here have more than one antenna lying around because we decided to take it down.







Here's a pic of a setup I had some time back with the CM7777 and separate uhf/vhf hi sections, the y10 7-13 is below. 48 inch spacing is good, but you could probably get away with around 36 inches if you had to. If you want to add a rotator later, you could also consider just rotating the uhf section and leaving the vhf fixed. That will allow you to keep a short mast segment above the rotator for less stress:


----------



## cpcat

Here's another pic. Obviously, you would have only one yagi on top (the xg91 or whatever). You could leave out the rotator for now and the yagi would go about where my rotator is and should be OK for spacing.


----------



## cpcat

And for anyone else interested I'll use this as an excuse to show off a quad:


Triax Unix 100 Band A's

Lindsay quad combiner

Sitco pa24 preamp


----------



## johnstonamerica

Thanks cpcat!










Is the Y10 7-13 better at grabbing VHF than the 3671 or is it just lighter?


Also, is the XG91 definitely my best bet for pulling in those really weak UHF signals?


Thanks for the pics, looks like you've had more than one set up!!


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnstonamerica* /forum/post/12718201
> 
> 
> Thanks cpcat!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is the Y10 7-13 better at grabbing VHF than the 3671 or is it just lighter?
> 
> 
> Also, is the XG91 definitely my best bet for pulling in those really weak UHF signals?
> 
> 
> Thanks for the pics, looks like you've had more than one set up!!



The problem with a Y10 7-13 and a XG-91 is that there is no low band VHF ability. The CBS affiliate in Albany will be returning to channel 6 in February 2009.


----------



## johnstonamerica

I'm thinking I may still just use a rotor - I can get decent signals from the 3671 but just need to point them in slightly different directions. This seems a bit strange to me as I understand everything is broadcasting from the same tower, but you can't refute the facts










It seems I have to point the antenna further north in order to catch CBS, which still leaves me with NBC & ABC, but loses FOX and PBS. I've tried turning it back westward by very small degrees w/ my girlfriend yelling from the livingroom to see if I can find a spot to catch everything but it's a no-go. As soon as I turn it back far enough I lose one or the other.


That's why I'm a bit concerned about installing another UHF only (even if it is able to pick up weaker signals) - because it would still have to be able to catch the northward CBS and the NW FOX w/o moving.


A rotor seems to be the simple fix as I can get decent signal strengths, just need to turn slightly.


Now I need to teach myself how to install a rotor and to find the best brand










I'm assuming the mast that hold the antenna is slid into a slightly bigger mast in the tripod so it can turn in that??


----------



## johnstonamerica

OK, doing some digging it looks like the rotor attaches to a mast, then the mast w/ your antenna sits on a "shelf" on the rotor and turns that way.. simple enough.


Is a 5' mast too tall if the rotor is on the bottom and the 3671 is on top - i.e. - about 5 ft of mast between the rotor and the top of the antenna? Just need to know if that will put too much strain on the rotor...


----------



## johnstonamerica

Yes, using the CM 7777... interesting...


If I were to just unplug the power to the preamp would I be able to tell if this is my problem? Or will I have to bypass it altogether to check?


Also, the strength is not only going down as I turn it, but will cut out completely after a certain point..


----------



## TV Trey




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/12714717
> 
> 
> And for anyone else interested I'll use this as an excuse to show off a quad:
> 
> 
> Triax Unix 100 Band A's
> 
> Lindsay quad combiner
> 
> Sitco pa24 preamp



You must have some severe multi-path issues for a configuration such as this. Have you tried stacking 2 on 2?


----------



## jspENC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnstonamerica* /forum/post/12722841
> 
> 
> Yes, using the CM 7777... interesting...
> 
> 
> If I were to just unplug the power to the preamp would I be able to tell if this is my problem? Or will I have to bypass it altogether to check?
> 
> 
> Also, the strength is not only going down as I turn it, but will cut out completely after a certain point..




You would need to first unplug the Pre-amp, then bypass it completely. Be sure to unplug the power before disconnecting the cables at the antenna or it could short circuit the pre-amp.


I believe you found the problem, sounds just like too much pre-amp to me. Do you split the signal at all, or have a long cable run from antenna to TV? 75' or more? If not you don't need that much pre-amp.


----------



## johnstonamerica

I was planning on splitting to an upstairs TV - cable run is 50'


I just figured I would need a preamp because the transmitter is about 50 miles away.. and there are a few hills between me and it...


----------



## jspENC

I'd take the pre-amp off. I think your over amplified. You've got a huge antenna on the roof, and have a short run going to only one TV right now, so that is definetely creating more problems than fixing.


Once you decide to split to mutiple TV's then you might be able to use the 7777. You could do 6 to 8 TV's with that pre-amp I think!


----------



## johnstonamerica

awesome! I'll try that first as it won't require me to shell out any more $$ and it'll be easy enough to see if it works or not..


Thanks jspENC!


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/12719409
> 
> 
> therefore a good idea to keep the cm3671 and add a 91xg for improved uhf performance.



Good catch you guys re: channel 6 after the transition. I'd still personally use the Y10 7-13 and then change later maybe to a wideband vhf such as the winegard 5030 but then I have no problem buying antennas/getting on my roof.







I probably wouldn't leave the 3671 up there as is but that's just my way of thinking. You might be able to remove the corner reflector and uhf section on the 3671 and re-drill mast clamp holes further back on the antenna at the new center of gravity. This would effectively convert it to vhf-only and decrease weight/wind load. I did this with my Winegard 8200 and it didn't seem to negatively effect the vhf performance at all.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/12719409
> 
> 
> How does the Sitco PA24 compare to the cm7777 in performance. I can not use one here just curious.
> 
> http://www.simplicitytool.com/preamplifier.htm
> 
> 
> where can users purchase the triax antennas.



The pa24 from my experience is marginally better up and down the range for uhf than the 7777. It is only slightly bested by the Research Comms 9254 which I have up currently.


Triax available at http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/home/homepage.jsp 


You have to call them directly to order once you have the item #. They don't like doing international orders online.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TV Trey* /forum/post/12723072
> 
> 
> You must have some severe multi-path issues for a configuration such as this. Have you tried stacking 2 on 2?



Yep. I'm not sure if it's multipath per se, but the horizontal quad just seems to perform better. It's sort of like a laser beam in reverse.







The beamwidth is extremely narrow as you might suspect, only maybe 5-10 degrees max. with the sweet spot being probably +/-2 degrees.


----------



## johnstonamerica

thanks again cpcat.. I think I'll try bypassing the preamp first, a few members seem to think that may be the problem.


if that doesn't work you may see pics of a new "double setup" sometime in the near future!


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/12722171
> 
> 
> When I used a preamp at the home with too much gain, I needed to aim the antenna away from the towers to get a higher signal. As I aimed towards the tower the signal level on the digital tuner went down. this can screw up your bearings and give false signs.
> 
> 
> This is typically a sign of signal overload.



The symptoms do match overload, but the distance, terrain, and signal strengths suggests that overload is unlikely. Perhaps different frequencies are arriving from different refractions off the hills.


----------



## Dirac




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/12711040
> 
> 
> In most cases a distribution amplifier will overload when used with a 7777 preamp. With a 7777 preamp a distribution amp is completely unnecessary, even when split 4 ways.



Thanks. This is an attic install 53 miles away from the towers... so I'm definitely in fringe territory. So I can still get away with a passive splitter?


----------



## TV Trey




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/12726259
> 
> 
> Yep. I'm not sure if it's multipath per se, but the horizontal quad just seems to perform better. It's sort of like a laser beam in reverse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The beamwidth is extremely narrow as you might suspect, only maybe 5-10 degrees max. with the sweet spot being probably +/-2 degrees.



When you state that it " just seems to perform better", are you comparing the 4 Unix 100A's stack horizontally to the 4 Dat-75's stacked 2 on 2?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TV Trey* /forum/post/12733349
> 
> 
> When you state that it " just seems to perform better", are you comparing the 4 Unix 100A's stack horizontally to the 4 Dat-75's stacked 2 on 2?



Actually the comparison was between the Dat's horizontal vs. traditional over/under. I never bothered with the Band A's. Once I got the second pair of them, I just put them up horizonatal and never looked back. It's easily the best performance for ch. 14-38 I've had so far.


Maybe I'll try the traditional quad with the A's at some point just for kicks, but for now my experience tells me the horizontal is preferred.


Here's a pic of the horizontal quad of Dat's.


----------



## cpcat

pic


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/12741364
> 
> 
> pic



You're going to have to put up another mast,or two...


I'll agree with the horizontal Quad arrangement.I tried square and diamond setups,but the in-line Quad has a much better pattern;less nasty sidelobes and extreme directivity.The -3db beamwidth downpoint has to be less than 2deg on the BandA Quad that I use,at 40"spacing.Now,I need another Quad combiner for the upper UHF Quad and can't locate anything,anywhere.If anyone has one,let me know.Pics....

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...TowerAntennas/


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/12743826
> 
> 
> You're going to have to put up another mast,or two...



I was wondering if you'd show up.










I'd love another mast (or two) but, alas, 'twon't happen I'm afraid. I'd love to try the 40 inch spacing on the horizontal quad but my installation won't allow it (27 inches max). _That_ might happen at some point but I'd have to get in touch with maxgain for some longer rods.


I did experiment with spacing though, and moving the inner two antennas farther apart does seems to help i.e. asymmetrical spacing. This may be due to my limited space though, and potentially might not apply if you already have adequate spacing.


----------



## johnstonamerica

thanks again to everyone who has offered me advice - it looks like signal overload is not the reason I can't get CBS pointing directly at the tower. I bypassed my 7777 altogether and got zip from anywhere - nothing










52 miles out over some very hilly terrain makes me think I'm just having to grab a reflected signal for CBS...


I think my next step will be a rotor, as my signal strengths are good (80's) - it's just my direction that needs a 30 degree twist...


The reason I'm worried about 2 separate units (VHF & UHF) is that CBS, ABC, and PBS are all UHF, but as mentioned, the direction is different. I'd hate to put 2 units up and have the same pointing problem


----------



## jspENC

I'm beginning to think that channel master antenna isn't very good for UHF. The rotor might be the way to go.


The reason I say the CM isn't very good is I know of someone else using that same one that lives in a flat area, and they have to point theirs to the southeast to get channels that are coming from the north. These channels are in the 50's. They are also using the 7777 and are right on the fringe. They only pick up the channels in the 50's at night too.


----------



## TV Trey




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/12741324
> 
> 
> Actually the comparison was between the Dat's horizontal vs. traditional over/under. I never bothered with the Band A's. Once I got the second pair of them, I just put them up horizonatal and never looked back. It's easily the best performance for ch. 14-38 I've had so far.
> 
> 
> Maybe I'll try the traditional quad with the A's at some point just for kicks, but for now my experience tells me the horizontal is preferred.
> 
> 
> Here's a pic of the horizontal quad of Dat's.



I tried a vertical stack with 2 Dat-75's and actually had poorer results than with just one. I wonder if the triple boom causes problems when stacked on top of each other? Thanks for the pictures, i always wondered how 4 would look.


----------



## johnstonamerica




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jspENC* /forum/post/12748853
> 
> 
> I'm beginning to think that channel master antenna isn't very good for UHF. The rotor might be the way to go.
> 
> 
> The reason I say the CM isn't very good is I know of someone else using that same one that lives in a flat area, and they have to point theirs to the southeast to get channels that are coming from the north. These channels are in the 50's. They are also using the 7777 and are right on the fringe. They only pick up the channels in the 50's at night too.



hmm, that's interesting... I wonder if there is a better rated combination unit that would allow me to forego a rotor?


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnstonamerica* /forum/post/12749794
> 
> 
> hmm, that's interesting... I wonder if there is a better rated combination unit that would allow me to forego a rotor?



Some may consider the Winegard HD8200P to be a better combo antenna, but I think you would be better off with separates than a combo.

http://www.winegard.com/offair/vhfuhf.htm 


Note that, generally speaking, "better" antennas with more gain increase the need to use a rotor.


----------



## jspENC

The only way I would use a combo like the 3671 or HD8200 is if I had a channel in the 2-6 low band range. Otherwise I would use seperate VHF and UHF. A High band such as an antennacraft Y-10 and a antennas direct 91XG for instance, or channel master bow ties. These are much easier to work with than those huge combos.


----------



## johnstonamerica

That makes good sense jsp - some other knowledgeable folks here have already suggested that to me.


My only worry is that since CBS and ABC are both UHF from Albany, and I have to turn the 3671 now to receive one or the other - I'm worried that if I got a separate UHF like the 91XG I'd still be in the same predicament - i.e - having to turn it to receive one or the other...


----------



## jspENC

True, and you can't guarantee that won't happen. The only way to know is to try.


----------



## tyromark

Right. If the TV is in the living room of a small house and others are asleep, you fell guilty about changing channels and moving the antenna...


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnstonamerica* /forum/post/12751096
> 
> 
> That makes good sense jsp - some other knowledgeable folks here have already suggested that to me.
> 
> 
> My only worry is that since CBS and ABC are both UHF from Albany, and I have to turn the 3671 now to receive one or the other - I'm worried that if I got a separate UHF like the 91XG I'd still be in the same predicament - i.e - having to turn it to receive one or the other...



Putting the rotator up will be the most hassle/labor. Once that's done, it won't be much work really to play around with antenna choices. If the 3671 on the rotator doesn't work to your satisfaction, put the xg91 on the rotator and your choice for vhf below it.


A cheaper choice for uhf would be the winegard 9032. It's pretty decent and certainly should outperform the 3671 for uhf.


----------



## johnstonamerica

Yep, that's my next step










If the rotor doesn't work out satisfactorily I'll probably go with the 91XG next..


The saga continues..


----------



## Eagles Dare

I was using a Rat Shack VU-90 w/ preamp and my signal strengths on many channels were a little suspect. Ordered a 91XG and put it up this morning. Performed much worse across the entire lot of UHF channels than the combo VU-90 did. I have a rotor so aiming shouldn't be the problem.


Does that seem right? I was expecting at least SOME improvement with the 91XG.


This is what TV Fool looks like:

Attachment 98669 


I'd really like to get WTIC. With my current setup I can sometimes get a marginal signal, usually at night. Seldom enough for a lock. I was hoping the 91XG would make the difference, but I get no WTIC signal at all with it.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Eagles Dare* /forum/post/12769928
> 
> 
> Does that seem right? I was expecting at least SOME improvement with the 91XG.



What pre-amp are you using? Looking at the TV Fool plot, you have stations at around 30 miles, with WTIC and other Hartford stations at almost 70 miles. These are all along the same relative angle.


It sounds like you may have an overload problem, though I wouldn't normally expect it on a -85dBm signal.


Have you compared the analog results?


Another suggestion is to re-run the TV Fool plot with the coordinates instead of the address. It should yield a more accurate result. Looking at the TV Fool coverage maps, there are some spots of stronger coverage.


If you are getting even marginal results with a VU-90 (for WTIC), I have to think that the current plot TV Fool gave you is off by a bit.


----------



## basmith2004

Live out in the James Island area, just outside of Downtown Charleston, SC. I just got a Samsung 4661 and wanted to try out the antenna to see what i could get. I bought the RCA - Amplified Indoor Off-Air HDTV Antenna. So far not so good. Wondering if I'm doing something wrong or if the antenna is no good? Any help is very much appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## w0en

Anyone have any comments on the new Winegard 769 series antennas for channels 7-69. They have model numbers like HD 769nP. Antennacraft seems to have a new VHF High/UHF yagi/corner reflector model as well. I wonder why they didn't just optimize the UHF section to maximize channels 14-51 instead an extra 100 MHz to get to 69?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/12788035
> 
> 
> If you need improved uhf performance [over the new hi band/uhf combos] in the fringe still go with separates...91xg and ya1713.
> 
> 
> .



I'd agree. Unless you plan to consider stacking them.







Might be interesting to try.


----------



## Wireman134




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *basmith2004* /forum/post/12782961
> 
> 
> Live out in the James Island area, just outside of Downtown Charleston, SC. I just got a Samsung 4661 and wanted to try out the antenna to see what i could get. I bought the RCA - Amplified Indoor Off-Air HDTV Antenna. So far not so good. Wondering if I'm doing something wrong or if the antenna is no good? Any help is very much appreciated. Thanks.



Go to TV fool.com and direct this DIY antenna using a compass toward the transmitters. http://uhfhdtvantenna.blogspot.com


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/12788035
> 
> 
> The announcement of this series of antennas from Winegard was great news since they manufacture a great hd series antenna.



Yes, this is good news. This will simplify making antenna recommendations for outdoor & attic mounted medium to short of deep fringe range antennas for those who need UHF coverage now and upper VHF coverage for 2009 and have all their stations in the same direction (out to what a 30 degree spread in azimuth).


This news is worthy of it's own thread in the hardware reception forum because some people may miss it buried in a loonng running thread.


----------



## Eagles Dare




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/12777997
> 
> 
> What pre-amp are you using? Looking at the TV Fool plot, you have stations at around 30 miles, with WTIC and other Hartford stations at almost 70 miles. These are all along the same relative angle.
> 
> 
> It sounds like you may have an overload problem, though I wouldn't normally expect it on a -85dBm signal.
> 
> 
> Have you compared the analog results?
> 
> 
> Another suggestion is to re-run the TV Fool plot with the coordinates instead of the address. It should yield a more accurate result. Looking at the TV Fool coverage maps, there are some spots of stronger coverage.
> 
> 
> If you are getting even marginal results with a VU-90 (for WTIC), I have to think that the current plot TV Fool gave you is off by a bit.



The preamp is a Ratshack model that was decently rated 5 or 6 years ago when I got the VU-90. I don't have the model number but I think it's stamped 40db. It's a 3 or 4 inch cylinder. I thought that might be the problem so I tried the 91XG without it. All channels went to "0" strength except for WGGB, which dropped from 80 to 40. With the preamp that's the only station that comes in on the XG. With the VU, I get WGBY,WFSB, and WWLP. WTIC shows a limited signal of around 30, not enough for a lock.


I guess I'm going to leave things alone until the leaves come out and see if I lose anything. Signal strengths on everything watchable except WGGB are in the low 60's. Not much room for error.


----------



## TV Trey




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/12791104
> 
> 
> The 91xg should have atleast double the gain on uhf (+3db) than the uhf on the VU 90. There is something else going on there. Anyone ??? Aim, connection, setup...?



Perhaps either improper assembly or a defective balun?


----------



## jspENC

91XG doesn't have a balun does it? Maybe it is improperly assembled? The VU-90 is at best 8 to 9 DB of gain on UHF, and the XG 91 is around 13 and 14 Dbs so something is not making contact on the XG whether it is the connection point or the elements.


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jspENC* /forum/post/12793182
> 
> 
> 91XG doesn't have a balun does it?



Yes, it's in the black plastic box where you attach the coax.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *w0en* /forum/post/12786680
> 
> 
> Anyone have any comments on the new Winegard 769 series antennas for channels 7-69. They have model numbers like HD 769nP. Antennacraft seems to have a new VHF High/UHF yagi/corner reflector model as well. I wonder why they didn't just optimize the UHF section to maximize channels 14-51 instead an extra 100 MHz to get to 69?



Post Feb2009, some of those upper channels will be broadcasting NEW SERVICES,

some of which we are supposed to buy into with a vengeance.....

Such as Qualcomm's MEDIAFLO on CH55....and wireless broadband service....


----------



## DJ GAINS BOND

ok folks, i have a 52" sony xbr 5, zip code is 06377, sterling ct, what would be the best antenna for all, if at all possible? thx in advance for your help, yes I've read through some pages, lol. Here's a link http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/Stations.aspx


----------



## Eagles Dare




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TV Trey* /forum/post/12792240
> 
> 
> Perhaps either improper assembly or a defective balun?



The instructions that come with the antenna suck. I thought it was very possible that I put it together wrong. However there's much better instructions w/ pictures at solidsignal.com My assembly is exactly like it's shown there. It's a PITA to connect the cable with the preamp on it. The balun points towards the rear reflectors and there's barely enough room to fit the preamp in there.


I'm leaning towards something being wrong with the balun. The cable connector on it is not real great. It spins slightly when the final tightening of the cable is made. The only thing that makes me doubt that diagnosis is the fact that ONE station does come in at around 80 strength. If the balun connection was broken or defective it seems like that wouldn't be happening.



> Quote:
> please supply tv fool results of your exact addres,



Here's the results for all channels, with coordinate instead of address search:

Attachment 98987


----------



## Dirac




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/12731286
> 
> 
> What are you using for an antenna



Sorry Rick... been out for a bit. I've got a CM4228 and Winegard YA-1713 both in the attic connected to the CM7777. My UHF stations are 53 miles away, and the VHF station (Ch 9) is 63 miles away and the weakest transmitter of the bunch (WALA). I am in ZIP 32564. Reception is pretty solid in good weather but I'm worried that splitting it 3 or 4 ways with a passive splitter will lead to too much signal loss. On the other hand, I was worried about clipping if I used a distribution amp with the 7777 preamp. One guy replied that I'd be fine and I didn't want to use a distribution amp if I already had a 7777... I just wanted to make sure that applied in my fringe reception situation.


----------



## DJ GAINS BOND




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DJ GAINS BOND* /forum/post/12806078
> 
> 
> ok folks, i have a 52" sony xbr 5, zip code is 06377, sterling ct, what would be the best antenna for all, if at all possible? thx in advance for your help, yes I've read through some pages, lol. Here's a link http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/Stations.aspx



bizzump any help is greatly appreciated.


----------



## bozey45

Go to tvfool.com and put your zip in and see what they come up with. Looks like you're in a hard area for reception of a lot of stations. Antennaweb shows 3 VHF and 1 UHF so you need a good high gain VHF/UHF combo on a rotor. Winegard and CM have some on their websites. You don't mention any obstructions like trees or hills or whatever between you and the transmitters or whether you want an indoor or outdoor array or an attic antenna. If you want to shoot for other stations than those 4 showing up on Antennaweb then an outdoor array on a rotor might be best. You need line of site (LOS) for best reception; trees and hills can be murder for reception. What indoor one have you tried? Sometimes sticking one in the attic can work. The specific antenna is hard to say until your particular location factors are given. your distance from the transmitters is not too bad.


----------



## Eagles Dare




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/12808498
> 
> 
> the chart suggests reception challenges.



Yep, very fringe on many of the channels. If I got next to nothing with the VU-90 I'd understand it. But receiving five with it vs. one with the supposedly superior XG91 has me scratching my head. The loss of WWLP-DT even makes some sense as it's really out of the recommended freq. range of the XG (high VHF 11).


I guess I'll take apart the balun and see what it looks like in there.


----------



## jspENC

I'm at a loss on the VU 90 being superior too. I had one, and it stunk on UHF, that's why I can't understand the XG not being much better. The VHF was OK, but nothing to brag about either.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Eagles Dare* /forum/post/12812567
> 
> 
> Yep, very fringe on many of the channels. If I got next to nothing with the VU-90 I'd understand it. But receiving five with it vs. one with the supposedly superior XG91 has me scratching my head. The loss of WWLP-DT even makes some sense as it's really out of the recommended freq. range of the XG (high VHF 11).
> 
> 
> I guess I'll take apart the balun and see what it looks like in there.



I had problems with the 91XG when I had all 3 booms assembled, but in my case, it was due to overload. My results were better with just one boom than all 3, but 2 seemed to be the best compromise for the moment. If it is convenient, I would be curious to know if you see a similar result. My 91XG is also pointing at WTIC, incidentally, but from SE CT.


While WGGB is stronger on the more exact TV Fool plot, it still doesn't seem strong enough to cause overload. It is about 15dBm weaker than my overload stations in SE CT.


When I first saw the 91XG box, I was surprised by how small it was. As I discovered while assembling, a smaller box = more work. I had to take a few breaks to assemble it as my hands were so worn out. It makes the CM4228 seem so much easier, despite its weight.


What do you see on the analog UHF stations with the 91XG. If you could post a few pictures of them with the VU-90 and the 91XG, it may help to figure out what is wrong. Is there any sign of analog WVIT 30?


----------



## Shade00

This may be a simple question, but I really need a decent little indoor antenna to receive digital channels. I have three tuners: a US Digital box, the tuner built into my Panny plasma, and a USB ATSC tuner. I will most likely only be feeding one of these, but I *may* split to two. Anyway, I live in metro Jackson, MS, zip code 39211, and here is what AntennaWeb has to say:


* yellow - uhf WJTV-DT 12.1 CBS JACKSON MS 239° 17.4 52

* yellow - uhf WMPN-DT 20.1 PBS JACKSON MS 231° 19.4 20

* yellow - uhf WAPT-DT 16.1 ABC JACKSON MS 234° 10.6 21

* red - uhf WDBD-DT 35.1 FOX Jackson MS 232° 17.4 41

* red - vhf WLBT-DT 3.1 NBC JACKSON MS 232° 17.4 9


Nothing over 19.4 miles. However, the tiny old RCA antenna I have only seems to pick up FOX and CBS, and I get poor signal quality. I live in a condo complex (single story only) so it needs to be an indoor antenna. If this is the wrong place or perhaps answered somewhere else, I apologize. Thanks in advance for any advice.


----------



## chemboy007

I live in the boon docks, about 50-60 miles from the towers I want, however, they lie in all directions - yes, 60 miles in all directions. I have an antenna on the roof (20 foot peak with a 10 foot mast-stand combination), with a new rotator (CM9521a). I need a good one size fits all directional antenna that can receive both UHF and VHF all the way down to channel 3, since there is a pretty even mix of both in the area. The digital signals don't seem to be only broadcasting in UHF. I don't want to overload my mast with two antennas, because we occasionally get some pretty high winds.


Can anyone give me a recommendation on the best deep fringe UHF/VHF antenna? I realize that a combination of something like the VIP-306 (or another yagi) and a CM4228 would produce the the best signal (when combined with a Titan 7777), but I don't think it would be wise to add onto the mast (since most of that 10 feet is stand, only about 3 feet is mast) and hike up a CM4228 on a rotator (I hear the wind resistance to that thing is pretty high). I think the wind would rip down the stand and a portion of my roof in the first strong storm.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Shade00* /forum/post/12818516
> 
> 
> This may be a simple question, but I really need a decent little indoor antenna to receive digital channels. I have three tuners: a US Digital box, the tuner built into my Panny plasma, and a USB ATSC tuner. I will most likely only be feeding one of these, but I *may* split to two. Anyway, I live in metro Jackson, MS, zip code 39211, and here is what AntennaWeb has to say:
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf WJTV-DT 12.1 CBS JACKSON MS 239° 17.4 52
> 
> * yellow - uhf WMPN-DT 20.1 PBS JACKSON MS 231° 19.4 20
> 
> * yellow - uhf WAPT-DT 16.1 ABC JACKSON MS 234° 10.6 21
> 
> * red - uhf WDBD-DT 35.1 FOX Jackson MS 232° 17.4 41
> 
> * red - vhf WLBT-DT 3.1 NBC JACKSON MS 232° 17.4 9
> 
> 
> Nothing over 19.4 miles. However, the tiny old RCA antenna I have only seems to pick up FOX and CBS, and I get poor signal quality. I live in a condo complex (single story only) so it needs to be an indoor antenna. If this is the wrong place or perhaps answered somewhere else, I apologize. Thanks in advance for any advice.



All of your stations are in the same direction, so a directional antenna is fine. Is the "tiny old RCA antenna" a UHF loop (~8" in diameter) and rabbit ears for VHF tabletop antenna? WLBT-DT NBC 3 is on upper VHF 9. WJTV-DT CBS 12 will be moving it's digital channel from UHF 52 to VHF 12 by Feb. 17, 2009. So you need an indoor antenna to get UHF and upper VHF.


First, have you tried different locations and aim for the RCA antenna? Raised it higher up in the room, placed it in a window facing SW in the direction of the stations? Tweaked the aim of the rabbit ears and shortened them to ~ 32" long to try to get WLBT-DT NBC? If it has a UHF loop, aimed the open face of the loop towards the stations?


If that does not work, a Silver Sensor UHF antenna combined with rabbit ears for VHF is a good next step. Hate to recommend Terks, but they are available at local stores. The Terk HDTVi is an unamplified version, but is not widely carried by the chain stores. The Terk HDTVa has a built-in amp and is rather overpriced at $50, but can be found at many local stores. Another option is a 2 Bay bowtie such as the Channel Master 4220 mounted on a mast facing a window or outside on a deck if you have one.


----------



## Eagles Dare




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/12815359
> 
> 
> What do you see on the analog UHF stations with the 91XG. If you could post a few pictures of them with the VU-90 and the 91XG, it may help to figure out what is wrong. Is there any sign of analog WVIT 30?



Thanks for your help. The antenna is up on my garage roof and we got 8" of snow yesterday. It's going to be a week or two before I'll be climbing up there to experiment again.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chemboy007* /forum/post/12819894
> 
> 
> I live in the boon docks, about 50-60 miles from the towers I want, however, they lie in all directions - yes, 60 miles in all directions. I have an antenna on the roof (20 foot peak with a 10 foot mast-stand combination), with a new rotator (CM9521a). I need a good one size fits all directional antenna that can receive both UHF and VHF all the way down to channel 3, since there is a pretty even mix of both in the area. The digital signals don't seem to be only broadcasting in UHF. I don't want to overload my mast with two antennas, because we occasionally get some pretty high winds.
> 
> 
> Can anyone give me a recommendation on the best deep fringe UHF/VHF antenna? I realize that a combination of something like the VIP-306 (or another yagi) and a CM4228 would produce the the best signal (when combined with a Titan 7777), but I don't think it would be wise to add onto the mast (since most of that 10 feet is stand, only about 3 feet is mast) and hike up a CM4228 on a rotator (I hear the wind resistance to that thing is pretty high). I think the wind would rip down the stand and a portion of my roof in the first strong storm.



Might help if you would reveal your general location/markets you're wanting to pick up.


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chemboy007* /forum/post/12819894
> 
> 
> I live in the boon docks, about 50-60 miles from the towers I want, however, they lie in all directions - yes, 60 miles in all directions. I have an antenna on the roof (20 foot peak with a 10 foot mast-stand combination), with a new rotator (CM9521a).



Your zip code would provide a better understanding of your location, terrain, what frequency bands the stations are on and whether any will move from UHF to VHF high or even low next year.


----------



## Shade00




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/12820370
> 
> 
> All of your stations are in the same direction, so a directional antenna is fine. Is the "tiny old RCA antenna" a UHF loop (~8" in diameter) and rabbit ears for VHF tabletop antenna? WLBT-DT NBC 3 is on upper VHF 9. WJTV-DT CBS 12 will be moving it's digital channel from UHF 52 to VHF 12 by Feb. 17, 2009. So you need an indoor antenna to get UHF and upper VHF.
> 
> 
> First, have you tried different locations and aim for the RCA antenna? Raised it higher up in the room, placed it in a window facing SW in the direction of the stations? Tweaked the aim of the rabbit ears and shortened them to ~ 32" long to try to get WLBT-DT NBC? If it has a UHF loop, aimed the open face of the loop towards the stations?
> 
> 
> If that does not work, a Silver Sensor UHF antenna combined with rabbit ears for VHF is a good next step. Hate to recommend Terks, but they are available at local stores. The Terk HDTVi is an unamplified version, but is not widely carried by the chain stores. The Terk HDTVa has a built-in amp and is rather overpriced at $50, but can be found at many local stores. Another option is a 2 Bay bowtie such as the Channel Master 4220 mounted on a mast facing a window or outside on a deck if you have one.



This is some great information. I really appreciate you taking the time to answer me in such detail.


The antenna I have is a UHF loop and rabbit ears - I put the antenna up as high as could, got no real improvement, and played a little bit - I guess I should hook it up again and see if I can make it work better.


I will take a look at the other antennas you mentioned. I wish I could go with a CM antenna, but my complex frowns on ugly things hanging outside on our patios.


----------



## chemboy007

Of course...

I live in 49412...Michigan.


It's somewhat hilly, but not horribly, and I'm near the top of one of the small hills. Mostly farmland. I have a few medium size deciduous trees nearby, but they're not usually a problem.


I currently have an 8 foot antenna of unknown make, probably 20-50 years old with approximately 100 foot run of RG-11 leading to the one (very pretty 47" Philips 1080p) TV.


My reception is mediocre, currently, and I hope that upgrading to a deep fringe will give me the Southern Grand Rapids and Cadillac stations without the drop out problems I periodically get, now (even in seemingly ideal weather).


Oh, and my one wish is for World Peace...B-)


Antenna suggestions?


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chemboy007* /forum/post/12827803
> 
> 
> I live in 49412...Michigan.



antennaweb.org list the following stations for your ZIP code. I have set the antenna height at 500' to overcome antennaweb's very conservative estimates.


* yellow - uhf WZZM-DT 13.1 ABC GRAND RAPIDS MI 175° 10.9 39

* yellow - uhf WCMU-DT 14.2 PBS MOUNT PLEASANT MI FCC Ext 66° 41.8 56

* green - uhf WTLJ-DT 54.1 IND MUSKEGON MI 181° 35.2 24

* lt green - vhf WOOD-DT 8.1 NBC GRAND RAPIDS MI 162° 58.2 7

* lt green - uhf WWTV-DT 9.1 CBS CADILLAC MI 38° 55.3 40

* red - uhf WXMI-DT 17.1 FOX GRAND RAPIDS MI 163° 57.7 19

* red - vhf WGVU-DT 35.1 PBS GRAND RAPIDS MI 180° 35.0 11

* blue - uhf WOTV-DT 41.1 ABC BATTLE CREEK MI 163° 66.4 20

* blue - vhf WWMT-DT 3.1 CBS KALAMAZOO MI 165° 61.2 2

* violet - uhf WMKG-DT 38 FMN MUSKEGON MI TBD 220° 18.0 38

* violet - uhf WZPX-DT 43.1 ION BATTLE CREEK MI 145° 70.2 44


WWMT/CBS 3 (DT 2) is going to tough to get, due to this station being on Low-VHF. 2 and 3 are especially hard to receive. However, WWMT will be moving to High-VHF 8 next year, which should be considerably easier to pick-up.


Western Michigan has quite a few VHF DTV stations as compared to the rest of the country.


WGVK/PBS 52 (DT 5) is slated to remain on Low-VHF 5, so if you have a need to receive that station. Note that antennaweb would not show it even at 500', but there appears to be an outside to be able to receive it.


If you can receive WWTV for CBS and WCMU for PBS, then you may not need to worry about Low-VHF.


WZZM/ABC is not very far at all, at 10.9 miles. This will cause problems, especially with a pre-amp as it will likely overload most pre-amps when the antenna is pointed in that direction.


If you are looking for a VHF/UHF combo and still want to have Low-VHF capability, then you may want to look at something like a Channel Master 3671 or a Winegard HD8200P. ...oh my, the HD8200P has been discontinued by Winegard?

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=HD8200P


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/12828386
> 
> 
> ..oh my, the HD8200P has been discontinued by Winegard?



There is a replacement that is UPS shippable!

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=HD8200U


----------



## emddvm

I currently have an old Radio Shack antenna mounted on a two story house. Height of the antenna is probably 25 feet or so. I live in a wooded area south of Memphis with big trees about 200 feet away from the house in the direction of the towers. I cannot receive channels 5.1 or 13.1 with this setup. The other digital channels come in pretty good, more so in the winter with leaves off the trees. The coax cable is ran through an amplifier inside the house and split off to two tv's. Below are the antennaweb results. Zip is 38651. Can someone recommend an antenna to try and improve the reception on these two channels? Thanks. Mike


red - uhf WREG-DT 3.1 CBS MEMPHIS TN 30° 22.8 28

red - uhf WKNO-DT 10.1 PBS MEMPHIS TN 34° 21.6 29

blue - uhf WLMT-DT 30.1 CW MEMPHIS TN 29° 30.0 31

blue - uhf WMC-DT 5.1 NBC MEMPHIS TN 29° 30.0 52

blue - uhf WPTY-DT 24.1 ABC MEMPHIS TN 29° 30.0 25

violet - uhf WHBQ-DT 13.1 FOX MEMPHIS TN 29° 22.1 53


----------



## Shade00




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *afiggatt* /forum/post/12820370
> 
> 
> All of your stations are in the same direction, so a directional antenna is fine. Is the "tiny old RCA antenna" a UHF loop (~8" in diameter) and rabbit ears for VHF tabletop antenna? WLBT-DT NBC 3 is on upper VHF 9. WJTV-DT CBS 12 will be moving it's digital channel from UHF 52 to VHF 12 by Feb. 17, 2009. So you need an indoor antenna to get UHF and upper VHF.
> 
> 
> First, have you tried different locations and aim for the RCA antenna? Raised it higher up in the room, placed it in a window facing SW in the direction of the stations? Tweaked the aim of the rabbit ears and shortened them to ~ 32" long to try to get WLBT-DT NBC? If it has a UHF loop, aimed the open face of the loop towards the stations?



I toyed with the antenna some more using your advice. I had just unplugged it and put it in the closet after having unsatisfactory results before. I am now able to get 9 digital stations (ABC, CBS, PBS, FOX, their substations, and another that I'm not sure of). Signal strength is excellent. My tuner does not even find NBC (3.1), though. This is with a US Digital standalone tuner - I will try my television's built-in ATSC tuner later. I am very happy to get HDTV now - Comcast here does not give us any freebie QAM stations.


----------



## rbarbier

Ok..


I live at zipcode 92571 and my local Digital channels are from Los Angeles. I am about 55 miles from Mt. Wilson and live in an apartment. Currently, I recieve all my local channel (except 13 but I don't need this) by using the Square Shooter ss-1000 with the CM-7777. What I am worried about is in 2009, channels 2-5 will stay on UHF (good) but 7,9,11,13 will be on the High Band VHF. Will this setup still work for me or do I need to change my antenna? Also, what would be a good antenna for my situation (apartment on the second floor with a balcony facing towards Mt. Wilson).


Thanks.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/12834805
> 
> 
> What I am worried about is in 2009, channels 2-5 will stay on UHF (good) but 7,9,11,13 will be on the High Band VHF. Will this setup still work for me or do I need to change my antenna? Also, what would be a good antenna for my situation (apartment on the second floor with a balcony facing towards Mt. Wilson).



The Square Shooter is probably not going to get it done. For now, the best way to tell is to look at the analog VHF reception. If it is poor or worse, you will probably need to make a change or add a VHF antenna in '09.


Until recently, we did not have a local VHF DTV station, but KFLA-LD is now available on channel 8. However, it is a low power station and as such is probably not strong enough to pick-up in Perris.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *emddvm* /forum/post/12833344
> 
> 
> The coax cable is ran through an amplifier inside the house and split off to two tv's.



Have you tested the reception without the amplifier? There are some strong stations at ~22 miles, which may overload an amp.


How is WPXX coming in on analog 50? Since the problem stations are in the 50's as well, this may give an indication of the problem. Higher frequencies tend to have more problems with trees.


----------



## chemboy007




> Quote:
> * yellow - uhf WZZM-DT 13.1 ABC GRAND RAPIDS MI 175° 10.9 39
> 
> * yellow - uhf WCMU-DT 14.2 PBS MOUNT PLEASANT MI FCC Ext 66° 41.8 56
> 
> * green - uhf WTLJ-DT 54.1 IND MUSKEGON MI 181° 35.2 24
> 
> * lt green - vhf WOOD-DT 8.1 NBC GRAND RAPIDS MI 162° 58.2 7
> 
> * lt green - uhf WWTV-DT 9.1 CBS CADILLAC MI 38° 55.3 40
> 
> * red - uhf WXMI-DT 17.1 FOX GRAND RAPIDS MI 163° 57.7 19
> 
> * red - vhf WGVU-DT 35.1 PBS GRAND RAPIDS MI 180° 35.0 11
> 
> * blue - uhf WOTV-DT 41.1 ABC BATTLE CREEK MI 163° 66.4 20
> 
> * blue - vhf WWMT-DT 3.1 CBS KALAMAZOO MI 165° 61.2 2
> 
> * violet - uhf WMKG-DT 38 FMN MUSKEGON MI TBD 220° 18.0 38
> 
> * violet - uhf WZPX-DT 43.1 ION BATTLE CREEK MI 145° 70.2 44
> 
> 
> WWMT/CBS 3 (DT 2) is going to tough to get, due to this station being on Low-VHF. 2 and 3 are especially hard to receive. However, WWMT will be moving to High-VHF 8 next year, which should be considerably easier to pick-up.
> 
> 
> Western Michigan has quite a few VHF DTV stations as compared to the rest of the country.
> 
> 
> WGVK/PBS 52 (DT 5) is slated to remain on Low-VHF 5, so if you have a need to receive that station. Note that antennaweb would not show it even at 500', but there appears to be an outside to be able to receive it.
> 
> If you can receive WWTV for CBS and WCMU for PBS, then you may not need to worry about Low-VHF.
> 
> 
> WZZM/ABC is not very far at all, at 10.9 miles. This will cause problems, especially with a pre-amp as it will likely overload most pre-amps when the antenna is pointed in that direction.
> 
> 
> If you are looking for a VHF/UHF combo and still want to have Low-VHF capability, then you may want to look at something like a Channel Master 3671 or a Winegard HD8200P. ...oh my, the HD8200P has been discontinued by Winegard?




I hadn't noticed the 8200U...I had been considering the 8200P when they canceled it. I was not happy. I don't understand the mix of UHF and VHF, does anyone have any idea why the stations are laid out the way they are? Is there a preference for one band over another? Is that important to the digital signal?


I've never gotten WCMU, WOTV or WZPX; but WGVU has three stations at 35.1, 35.2, and 35.3, Channel 8 runs an 8.1 and an 8.2 (the non cable version of the weather channel - all local satellite all the time). Channel 17 runs a 17.1 and a 17.2 (where they play music videos - usually 80s and 90s. I enjoy the nostalgia). I can see all of the others, but the issue is how well and how often.


When a broadcaster is using multiple channels, like 35.1, 35.2, and 35.3, do they use the same band and just squeeze more info into it, which the tuner then separates?


btw...thanks for the help finding an antenna. I think the 8200U is the perfect choice!


----------



## Intheswamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *emddvm* /forum/post/12833344
> 
> 
> I currently have an old Radio Shack antenna mounted on a two story house. Height of the antenna is probably 25 feet or so. I live in a wooded area south of Memphis with big trees about 200 feet away from the house in the direction of the towers. I cannot receive channels 5.1 or 13.1 with this setup. The other digital channels come in pretty good, more so in the winter with leaves off the trees. The coax cable is ran through an amplifier inside the house and split off to two tv's. Below are the antennaweb results. Zip is 38651. Can someone recommend an antenna to try and improve the reception on these two channels? Thanks. Mike



Mike, a couple of things come to mind. Beware, I'm not one of the regular experts here...just a tinkerer.










1. Take the amplifier out of the circuit and see what happens.


2. If you can get to the antenna without much trouble slightly flex all the elements that you can...over a period of years oxidation and corrosion will cause high-resistant connections or even cause completely broken connections. While you're at it check the coax connections. I've done the "exercise" procedure on some older antennas and was quiet pleased with the results.


3. It looks like the two stations that you are interested in are (for now) in the upper UHF frequencies. If your antenna is a big, long, triangular shaped antenna it is probably predominately for VHF. A UHF antenna would probably help tremendously. I personally use an 8-bay Channel Master 4228 with a 7777 pre-amp and 100' of RG-6 coax. I really like the CM4228. They also make a 4-bay, the CM4221. You could also tinker with building one by checking out this link.... diy antenna thread .


My stations range from 21, 40, and 67 miles from me...these all come in consistently with my setup. I've got a couple of stations in the 20-40 mile range that I *can't* receive though







...these are still running low-power with their antenna still at a low height, once they go full-power they will come in fine. You might need to check and make sure that the stations that you can't receive have adequate power and antenna height for you to receive them. Being as WMC-DT is at the bottom of the listing but it isn't the most distance station it makes me think it hasn't gone full-power or maybe it's antenna isn't that high.


It's still interesting that the two problem stations are in the upper UHF range. How does WPXX-DT 50.1 (ION) come in? It's close to the same frequencies as the two others. ????


Out of curiosity I checked...looks like WHBQ is running low-power of only a couple of kilowatts. WMC is putting out a touch under 400kw which really isn't too shabby. You can go here and enter your lat/long and see the distances/power/etc.,.


Just some thoughts,

Ed


----------



## afiggatt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *chemboy007* /forum/post/12838231
> 
> 
> When a broadcaster is using multiple channels, like 35.1, 35.2, and 35.3, do they use the same band and just squeeze more info into it, which the tuner then separates?



All of the sub-channels are part of the same digital broadcast channel signal. An ATSC broadcast is a constant 19.4 Mb/sec data rate which can be divided into separate SD and a HD sub-channel. In this case, WGVU-DT 35 is broadcasting digitally on VHF 11 with 3 sub-channels.


----------



## emddvm

Intheswamp and Falcon77

Thank you for the replies. I have used the amplifier for several years and had to replace it a year or so ago. Without it I had trouble getting any reception on the TV that is farthest away from the splitter. I can try and remove it again though and see what happens.

As far as channel 50.1, I don't receive it either and had never considered it, so you all may be right that there is a problem with the upper UHF channels. The radio shack antenna I have is a VHF/UHF. I don't really know how to describe it but it is long with two smaller parts that come off the top and bottom of the front part that is aimed towards the towers. It is at least 15 years old. I have tried moving it around some on the direction it is pointed but it hasn't improved anything. I started to check the coax connection not too long ago but didn't since it seemed to have a covering that had kind of "melted" and I was afraid I might not be able to get it back together if I took it apart.

I would like to keep the VHF analog channels for now so if I do replace the antenna should I get something that does UHF and VHF? It looks like the CM4228 is primarily UHF. I will try things without the amplifier again and may try and check the coax/antenna connection. I just hope I can get it back together...

Thanks again.

Mike


----------



## miztahsparklez




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *andy.s.lee* /forum/post/12665052
> 
> 
> *Apparently we have a large TERK antenna inside the conference room that is adjacent to the room that I am working in. I have been informed that it does work, but I have not verified that myself. The setup seems to be an outdoor antenna, a few feet in length, maybe the diameter of a small coffee can. It happens to be just leaning against the wall in the room with all the wires. Luckily, the side of the building the antenna is working in faces at least two of the major broadcast locations.*
> 
> 
> Assuming that your building composition is cooperative, then I have a few questions:
> 
> 
> 1) Is this a temporary setup or long term?
> *The setup is long term*
> 
> 
> 2) Are you interested in all digital channels or just one?
> *The more channels the better. However, there's no real specific channel needs to get to.*
> 
> 
> 3) Can you access the space above the drop-ceiling?
> *Sure can, but it's preferable to keep the wire running within the same section of the room, as the building likes to have any extraneous wiring run by the electrician. I will have to double check to see what is acceptable by building policies.*
> 
> 
> 4) Are you willing to ask for roof access (sometimes it's easier than you think)?
> *I think we are looking to minimize the complexity here. Roof access would be too much trouble for what usage the antenna would actually get. ( we already have DirecTV and the like)*
> 
> 
> 5) Are there any constraints on antenna visibility/appearance?
> *It would be nice to have something we can hide away in a corner somewhere.*




Thanks for your replies


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *emddvm* /forum/post/12844656
> 
> 
> I started to check the coax connection not too long ago but didn't since it seemed to have a covering that had kind of "melted" and I was afraid I might not be able to get it back together if I took it apart.



Melted?










It sounds like the antenna has a UHF corner reflector, but it appears that something in the cabling may be hindering the higher frequencies.


Which analog stations are you able to receive?


I would like to see a picture of that melted connection if possible.


----------



## mlcarson

Any suggestions for an antenna here?


55BS 48deg, 7.6miles

59:CBS 61deg, 8.6miles


38:FOX 210deg, 12.9miles

51:ABC 180deg, 14.4miles

57:NBC 191deg, 13.1miles


I'm looking for an antenna (either outdoor or in attic) which could be fixed. All of these stations are close but they are in different directions. Was wondering if a round channelmaster 3002 smartenna might do the trick. I also have a 4221 uhf antenna in the attic that I might try taking the screen off from since it'll only work for 38,51,57 or 55,59 but not both at the moment. My main outdoor antenna is a dual 4248 horizontal mount combo that I was experimenting with for very distant stations -- this will work if pointed in between the stations but I'm now looking for something a bit smaller for just the local stations rather than the out of area ones.


Results:

Took the screen off the 4221 and pointed it toward 190 deg (the results are good enough). 55 didn't seem to lose signal or pixelate at all.

55BS 48deg, 7.6miles (53-58%)

59:CBS 61deg, 8.6miles (87%)


38:FOX 210deg, 12.9miles (100%)

51:ABC 180deg, 14.4miles (75%)

57:NBC 191deg, 13.1miles (100%)


----------



## dk2nv

Everything was good till I decided to wire correctly. I have an U-75R from Radioshack: http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=family It worked great on the stations below when it was mounted outside and connected directly to my TV. No it is fed to a distribution box and spit to two tvs. The signal seems very weak overall and fox will not work. Do I need a different antenna or a pre-amp? I also thought about moving the antenna into the attic, so there is less clutter outside at the dish.


The dish installer thought he could diplex this feed with the TV2 output from the DVR. When this was done, there was nothing from the stations below. Was this because he can not do this with diplexers or because the signal was too weak.


Thank you.


* yellow - uhf WCJB-DT 20.1 ABC GAINESVILLE FL 148° 20.1 miles 16

* yellow - uhf WGFL-DT 28.1 CBS HIGH SPRINGS FL 175° 9.8 miles 28

* red - uhf WOGX-DT 51.1 FOX OCALA FL 154° 32.7 miles 31


----------



## mlcarson

No idea what 55,57,59 are transitioning to. If they went to their old VHF frequencies, it would be 23,10,6 respectively. They should just stay where they are -- or is that not an option? Smaller antenna for high freq UHF versus huge VHF antennas (especially for low vhf).


I'll probably try the screen removal on the 4221 and see if that will work. If it doesn't try one of the radio shack antennas... Hoping to find a solution which will work in the attic.


----------



## mstasko

I have been eyeing the DB4 Antenna. Nice and compact & reviews that I have read on the web give it high marks.


----------



## mlcarson

Not sure where you got the new channel numbers but thanks.

Ch 36 will conflict with neighboring WJRT unless they are also transitioning since that's their current digital channel. And yay - channel 57 has to be different and go VHF requiring everybody to use 2 antennas.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dk2nv* /forum/post/12863729
> 
> 
> Everything was good till I decided to wire correctly. I have an U-75R from Radioshack: http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=family It worked great on the stations below when it was mounted outside and connected directly to my TV. No it is fed to a distribution box and spit to two tvs. The signal seems very weak overall and fox will not work. Do I need a different antenna or a pre-amp? I also thought about moving the antenna into the attic, so there is less clutter outside at the dish.
> 
> 
> The dish installer thought he could diplex this feed with the TV2 output from the DVR. When this was done, there was nothing from the stations below. Was this because he can not do this with diplexers or because the signal was too weak.
> 
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> 
> * yellow - uhf WCJB-DT 20.1 ABC GAINESVILLE FL 148° 20.1 miles 16
> 
> * yellow - uhf WGFL-DT 28.1 CBS HIGH SPRINGS FL 175° 9.8 miles 28
> 
> * red - uhf WOGX-DT 51.1 FOX OCALA FL 154° 32.7 miles 31



Can you describe in detail how the Dish feed is shared...and which UHF channel is TV2 using?


----------



## holl_ands

DTV Channel Elections (per Aug2007):
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-07-138A2.pdf


----------



## dk2nv

Outside I have 5 cables coming in. Two for each 622 and one for the UHF antenna. All five cables go to a structured wire panel. From this panel I have three cable to the master bedroom (DVR # 1) and living room (DVR # 2). The plan was to use two cables for the sat feed and the third cable would be diplexed to carry the second TV and UHF signal. The second TV is set to channel 60. Does this sound like it would work? To try to narrow things down I removed the diplexers and did not hook up the TV2 output. So basically I had the two sat feeds and one UHF feed to each 622. With this setup the signal is very weak. Hope this is detailed enough. (I was thinking there was too many splitters and line connections (connection at antenna, where it enters the house, in the panel its split, at the diplexer in the panel, at the diplexer at each 622, and back to the panel.)


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mlcarson* /forum/post/12864602
> 
> 
> Ch 36 will conflict with neighboring WJRT unless they are also transitioning since that's their current digital channel. And yay - channel 57 has to be different and go VHF requiring everybody to use 2 antennas.



WJRT is going back to their analog channel (12) in 2/09.


There are quite a few areas that will only have 1 VHF full power station after the analog shut-off. So much for making it easy for the viewer.


----------



## dk2nv

ok. So I found a little 10db amplifier in the garage and hooked it up. I now have decent sighal strength on the two tv's in questions. Now I need to backfeed TV2 from the master br. Should I diplex the TV2 feed with one of the sat lines or with the UHF line?

Thanks. DK


----------



## holl_ands

Since you have MORE than enough cables, it would be better....and simpler if you did fol:


1. Run antenna to a splitter which feeds each room---one OTA coax per room.


2. Use a coax pair to each room for each Dish Receiver.


3. When that works, to add TV2 distribution, check out Example 4 (without Dish Pro Separator)

or Example 8 (with Dish Pro Separator, e.g. Dish1000/1000.2, one less coax):
http://www.solidsignal.tv/dishpro_installation.asp 

Note diplexers "backfeed" TV2 UHF signal to location of Super Home Node for distribution.


The Dish Super Home Node (e.g Eagle SHN-24) is an amplified 4-Way splitter designed to

redistribute TV2 UHF via OTA coax (dishstore wants way too much):
http://www.dishstore.net/product_inf...roducts_id=138 
http://www.appliedtel.com/Site/Shop/...spx?prdID=1505 

[You may...or may not...find that a passive splitter will sort of work...temporarily...]


If your Dish has an internal multiplexer (i.e. is compatible with a Dish Pro Separator),

another similar option is also possible:

4. Use Example 8, except eliminate the Diplexers and run the CH2 UHF signal

direct to the Super Home Node on the coax freed up by using the Separator.


PS: You are WAY TOO CLOSE to 5 MW A-WGFL to use a Preamp.

I would usually recommend going to a lower TV2 UHF channel, but after looking

at your location via www.tvfool.com , the best open channel I could see with no strong

adjacent stations are CH46 & CH57, which may have slightly less cable loss than CH60.


----------



## dk2nv

I ended up using example 3. I diplexed the TV2 with one of the sat feeds. This allowed me to have a single line for the UHF (no worries of broadcasting). Thanks for your help. I noticed that when I disconnected the masterbr sat feeds the coax arced. Why is this? Is this safe for the tv's? I have noticed that WGFL does appear to have a little more noise in it with the amp, but without it I can not get WOGX to come in clear. Thanks again.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dk2nv* /forum/post/12868090
> 
> 
> i have everything working! Thanks for your help. I noticed that when I disconnected the masterbr sat feeds the coax arced. Why is this? Is this safe for the tv's?



SAT Receivers output DC power up the coax to the SAT dish.

You should power down before swap....


----------



## bernieoc

My Roanoke PBS will be on Ch 3. You know how big that antenna must be!


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bernieoc* /forum/post/12868392
> 
> 
> My Roanoke PBS will be on Ch 3. You know how big that antenna must be!



WBRA may regret not going back to their analog UHF channel (15). I see that they are currently on VHF 3 for DTV, how much of a problem that has been so far?


Looking at Roanoke, the next PBS station appears to be WVPT (11), but it seems to be out of range. WSBN (32) is too weak and much too far.


----------



## johnstonamerica

Just wanted to thank everyone again for the help - I now have the 91XG mounted on the top of my mast for UHF and the 3671 below for VHF. The 7777 acts as the filter to separate the UHF from VHF. I have also installed a rotor and am able to receive the Hartford stations along with the Albany ones.


This forum made it easy for me to find the equipment I needed and I am extremely pleased to report that I am receiving all of these staions with no problems at all!


Thanks everyone who helped!!


Now my next task is finding the perfect recliner to fall asleep in when I watch TV


----------



## Konrad2

> Now my next task is finding the perfect recliner to fall asleep in when I watch TV

http://www.ekornes.no/us/stressless/...ess_recliners/ 

http://relaxtheback.com/massage-recl...tegory-6389770 

http://www.brookstone.com/sl/home-gifts/chair-recliner


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnstonamerica* /forum/post/12874541
> 
> 
> Just wanted to thank everyone again for the help - I now have the 91XG mounted on the top of my mast for UHF and the 3671 below for VHF. The 7777 acts as the filter to separate the UHF from VHF. I have also installed a rotor and am able to receive the Hartford stations along with the Albany ones.
> 
> 
> This forum made it easy for me to find the equipment I needed and I am extremely pleased to report that I am receiving all of these staions with no problems at all!
> 
> 
> Thanks everyone who helped!!
> 
> 
> Now my next task is finding the perfect recliner to fall asleep in when I watch TV



Good work J! Let's see a pic!


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mlcarson* /forum/post/12863835
> 
> 
> No idea what 55,57,59 are transitioning to. If they went to their old VHF frequencies, it would be 23,10,6 respectively. They should just stay where they are -- or is that not an option?



It's not an option. Channel 52 and above are required by law to be vacant after the transition, so they can be sold off for other uses. Some stations got stuck with pre-transition digital channels in that range because it wasn't possible to give all stations two channels (analog and digital) without causing a lot of interference in some places.


In my area, NBC, CBS, ABC and FOX are currently on digital 59, 53, 56 and 57 respectively, so they all have to move for the final transition. NBC doesn't want to use its current analog channel (4) because it's low-VHF which is very problematical for digital signals, so it's moving to 36. The others are moving to their current analog channels (7, 13 and 21 respectively).


----------



## Konrad2

> NBC doesn't want to use its current analog channel (4) because

> it's low-VHF which is very problematical for digital signals,


VHF gets through trees and walls much better than UHF. Impulse

noise is supposed to be a problem with VHF-LO, but don't assume

that VHF-LO will be worse than UHF, because it isn't always.


I have a low power ATSC channel 4 which is much *less* problematical

than several of my high power UHF ATSC stations, even though

(A) I'm using a VHF-HI antenna to get it, and (B) I chose the

UHF antenna (8 bay) specifically for the higher gain (and more

importantly higher directivity) in the problematic frequency range.

The VHF-LO analogs have various problems with this antenna.

(The VHF-LO stations are all scheduled to go away, which is why I

didn't bother getting a good VHF-LO antenna.) I suspect I may have

*more* trouble with this station when it moves to UHF.


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: Summary of On-Air Tests for VHF vs UHF Impulse Noise:
http://www.mstv.org/docs/techinfo.pdf 


A lot depends on how close you are to VHF impulse noise sources....


----------



## johnstonamerica




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/12876155
> 
> 
> Good work J! Let's see a pic!



will snap a pic tomorrow










thanks for the links to the chair sites Konrad.. that massage chair looks awesome but may be a bit out of my price range atm


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/12878898
> 
> 
> FYI: Summary of On-Air Tests for VHF vs UHF Impulse Noise:
> http://www.mstv.org/docs/techinfo.pdf
> 
> 
> A lot depends on how close you are to VHF impulse noise sources....



Thanks for the article. It seems to me if that Low-VHF will remain in the "core," that the ERP levels allowed will have to be increased significantly.


I have seen other analysis confirming the high relative noise levels for Low-VHF. That, coupled with the fact that larger (unsightly) antennas are needed, I am still baffled that the US is clinging to channels 2-6.


It seems to me that Low-VHF stations are only effective in the least populated markets.


----------



## PA_MainyYak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/12877657
> 
> 
> > NBC doesn't want to use its current analog channel (4) because
> 
> > it's low-VHF which is very problematical for digital signals,
> 
> 
> VHF gets through trees and walls much better than UHF. Impulse
> 
> noise is supposed to be a problem with VHF-LO, but don't assume
> 
> that VHF-LO will be worse than UHF, because it isn't always.
> 
> 
> I have a low power ATSC channel 4 which is much *less* problematical
> 
> than several of my high power UHF ATSC stations, even though
> 
> (A) I'm using a VHF-HI antenna to get it, and (B) I chose the
> 
> UHF antenna (8 bay) specifically for the higher gain (and more
> 
> importantly higher directivity) in the problematic frequency range.
> 
> The VHF-LO analogs have various problems with this antenna.
> 
> (The VHF-LO stations are all scheduled to go away, which is why I
> 
> didn't bother getting a good VHF-LO antenna.) I suspect I may have
> 
> *more* trouble with this station when it moves to UHF.



VHF-LO remains part of the TV spectrum post-transition, although by my count only 38 stations have elected channels 2-6 as their permanent digital home, compared to 456 on VHF-HI (7-13), and 1,330 on UHF (14-51). The FCC had expressed it's strong desire to clear the VHF-LO band, but that has not happened. In some cases (for example WPVI-6 in Philadelphia) there are simply no other channels available. On the other hand, it appears the majority of stations that will inhabit channels 2-5 elected their old NTSC channel, which the FCC has blessed with the proposed final DTV Table of Allotments.


----------



## kycubsfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/12881348
> 
> 
> Thanks for the article. It seems to me if that Low-VHF will remain in the "core," that the ERP levels allowed will have to be increased significantly.
> 
> 
> I have seen other analysis confirming the high relative noise levels for Low-VHF. That, coupled with the fact that larger (unsightly) antennas are needed, I am still baffled that the US is clinging to channels 2-6.
> 
> 
> It seems to me that Low-VHF stations are only effective in the least populated markets.



As I've said elsewhere, I'm thrilled that my nearest FOX affiliate (WDKY) has elected to stick with VHF 4. At nearly 90 miles out, I'm going to enjoy a pristine Super Bowl feed. This station's network peers on UHF might as well not even exist.


VHF-LO is perfect for situations like that seen in Lexington, a metro area whose TV market reaches well beyond the city and across huge swaths of mountainous terrain. I just wish other Lexington stations had followed suit, but I know full well that reception in far-flung, often impoverished Appalachia is not a priority for these guys.


For me, the bigger (and more unsightly) the antenna the better.


----------



## holl_ands

You'll reach a much bigger audience by posting this question in the ANTENNA thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...81623&page=220


----------



## holl_ands

Nearly all of the analog stations with "K" followed by two digit channel number

are either low power special interest stations (religious/community/etc) or are

low power REPEATERS for a more distant station (no, I don't know what's what).


Low power/repeaters are NOT required to shut down analog by Feb2009.

In fact, until Feb2009 analog shutdown opens up a bunch of channels,

they have (until recently) been discouraged from seeking digital assignments.


So don't expect most of the nearby analog stations to go digital until some

period of time ON or AFTER Feb2009.


=======================
www.antennaweb.org (above) only found one DTV station (KMCC-DT in Laughlin).

www.tvfool.com finds KMCC-DT plus three more DTV stations with

STRONGER, line-of-sight signal strengths:

KMOH-DT on CH19 (Independent),

K35JA-D on CH35 (owned by Smoke & Mirrors),

K28EU on CH28 (KVVU-DT L.V. FOX repeater) and

K25HD on CH25 (reportedly goes digital Feb2009).

The last three "low power" stations probably go digital on or shortly after Feb2009....


=========================

Tvfool also predicts five Las Vegas stations with low to very low signal levels:

CH2 (NBC-HD), CH7 (CBS-HD), CH9 (FOX-HD) and CH11 (PBS-HD).

And there are other L.V. stations with extremely weak signal levels....


However, since Bullhead City is also transmitting on CH2, CH7 and CH9 it would

be very difficult to sufficiently suppress these strong line-of-sight stations.

[It would even be a challenge for a staggered antenna nulling system].


BTW: Post Feb2009, KMOH-DT and KMCC-DT as well as the listed Las Vegas

digital stations will remain on their current channel assignments.

Most "low power" stations will probably try to stay on their current assignments.

However, K63HJ and K57FY will have to move out of the new "700 MHz Band".


----------



## holl_ands

Before we can recommend an antenna, you need to determine which stations

you want to receive...and/or could live without....now and post-2009

Where can we draw the line wrt decreasing signal strength???


BTW: If you can receive analog station now, you'll probably receive digital when

they change post-2009.


----------



## Mister B

I used to live in small towns in New Mexico and depend on rural translators for TV reception. They are not always reliable although most of the Albuquerque stations were good about taking reports about reception problems. It is alway good to have a back-up for the same network form another small town even if it is not as strong of a signal.

If I were in your situation, I would first get a rotor so as to be able to turn the antenna and note which channels are receivable. You could up-grade to a better UHF antenna, many of which are discussed on this forum and add separate VHF high band or even low band antennas later.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kycubsfan* /forum/post/12890136
> 
> 
> VHF-LO is perfect for situations like that seen in Lexington, a metro area whose TV market reaches well beyond the city and across huge swaths of mountainous terrain. I just wish other Lexington stations had followed suit, but I know full well that reception in far-flung, often impoverished Appalachia is not a priority for these guys.
> 
> 
> For me, the bigger (and more unsightly) the antenna the better.



Thank you for the info. I have a few questions.


What antenna are you using?


How does WDKY (4) compare with the upper VHF stations in the area: WLJC (7), WYMT (12) and WKYT (13). WKYT appears to be about 10 miles behind WDKY. The others are closer, is it easy to receive them?


The power levels on the VHF Lexington area stations are quite high at between 26.5 and 50kW, which no doubt helps reception. WDKY is listed as the 4th most powerful low VHF-station for 2009, after KYES (AK), WCES (GA) and KVBC (NV). The median Low-VHF power is around 7kW.


----------



## dmiller1971

Hi everyone. I'm new to this so turning to the pros for help! I live in Charlotte NC (28278) and installing an antenna (dropping cable altogether). Thinking based on the results from Antennaweb that the CM4221 will work for me fine (although appreciate any comments - my info is below). My question is related to install - I have a locked time warner box on the back of my house and will continue to use TW for internet. How do I connect my antenna to the existing cabling throughout the house so that I have antenna reception on all the TV's being used? There appears to be one coax connection outside of the box that is not being used but can't tell if it is "in" our "out". Take it easy on me with responses - I'm new to terminology here!


My antennaweb results.

yellow - uhf WBTV-DT 3.1 CBS CHARLOTTE NC 336° 21.5 23

yellow - uhf WJZY-DT 46.1 CW BELMONT NC 340° 20.6 47

yellow - uhf WCNC-DT 36.1 NBC CHARLOTTE NC 336° 20.0 22

yellow - uhf WCCB-DT 18.1 FOX CHARLOTTE NC 57° 18.8 27

yellow - uhf WSOC-DT 9.1 ABC CHARLOTTE NC 59° 18.9 34

green - uhf WMYT-DT 55.1 MNT ROCK HIL SC 340° 20.6 39

red - uhf WMYT 55 MNT ROCK HILL SC 340° 20.6 55

red - uhf WAXN 64 IND KANNAPOLIS NC 59° 18.9 64

red - uhf WAXN-DT 64.1 IND KANNAPOLIS NC 59° 18.9 50

red - uhf WUNG 58 PBS CONCORD NC 56° 28.1 58

red - uhf WUNG-DT 58.1 PBS CONCORD NC 56° 28.1 44

red - uhf WTVI 42 PBS CHARLOTTE NC 58° 21.3 42

red - vhf WTVI-DT 42.1 PBS CHARLOTTE NC 58° 21.3 11

red - vhf WSOC 9 ABC CHARLOTTE NC 59° 18.9 9

red - uhf WCNC 36 NBC CHARLOTTE NC 337° 20.0 36

red - uhf WJZY 46 CW BELMONT NC 340° 20.6 46

red - vhf WBTV 3 CBS CHARLOTTE NC 336° 21.5 3

red - uhf WCCB 18 FOX CHARLOTTE NC 58° 18.6 18

red - uhf W52CW 52 TBN CHARLOTTE NC 65° 20.3 52

blue - uhf W38CN 38 TBN CHARLOTTE NC 336° 20.0 38

blue - uhf WNSC 30 PBS ROCK HILL SC 191° 17.8 30

blue - uhf WGTB-LP 28 FMN CHARLOTTE NC 38° 14.4 28

violet - uhf WNSC-DT 30.1 PBS ROCK HILL SC 191° 17.8 15

violet - vhf WFMY 2 CBS GREENSBORO NC 57° 84.0 2

violet - uhf WUNE 17 PBS LINVILLE NC 331° 82.1 17


----------



## johnstonamerica

cp and others.. sorry I haven't put pics up yet, still having problems..


lost all my channels completley a few days agao, and after scrambling all over the roof in freezing weather checking my connections over and over determined the problem was with the power supply to the CM7777 right in my livingroom! I could wiggle the connections (hard) and sometimes get a signal for a second.


I replaced the power supply and voila, had everything back again!

Then, after a few hours away, I checked again, and am now missing my UHF completely while still getting my VHF fine. So crazy.


I noticed when I put the 91XG together the connection on the black box (balun?) seemed to move way too muc (in and out). Could it be that I have a faulty balun and that is why I lost UHF and not VHF.


Man this is getting more and more frustrating







Every time I think I have it, victory is snatched out of my hands again and again!


Any thoughts would certainly be welcomed!


----------



## johnstonamerica

Thank you so much for the advice and encouragement Rick!


It has to be something wrong with the connection between the 91XG and the preamp, right? Otherwise why would I still be getting VHF?


Also, I keep wondering why the heck I got UHF fine when I first replaced the power supply. Plugged the new supply in and watched UHF for about 2 hours, no problems at all. Then a few hours later, absolutley nothing. Why the heck would it work fine first, then just stop when nothjing has changed? Coule the power supply be overheating or something?


I'm assuming the plastic housing on the balun comes off easily?


Appreciate the reply, I'm learning more about antennas than I ever thought was possible


----------



## donnyjaguar

Hi guys. I'm considering stacking 4 UHF yagis vertically on one pole. What's the best way to feed this kind of rig? Right now I'm leaning towards joining the equal lengths of 300Ω twinlead at a common point connected directly to the coax. I'll then use a current balun on the 75Ω coax. This is what the ham guys do. I've not tried it myself (due to weather in NE) so I thought I'd see how others were doing it. RF savvy on this end so no need to laymanize response.


Ta


----------



## w0en




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnstonamerica* /forum/post/12927004
> 
> 
> cp and others.. sorry I haven't put pics up yet, still having problems..
> 
> 
> lost all my channels completley a few days agao, and after scrambling all over the roof in freezing weather checking my connections over and over determined the problem was with the power supply to the CM7777 right in my livingroom! I could wiggle the connections (hard) and sometimes get a signal for a second.
> 
> 
> I replaced the power supply and voila, had everything back again!
> 
> Then, after a few hours away, I checked again, and am now missing my UHF completely while still getting my VHF fine. So crazy.
> 
> 
> I noticed when I put the 91XG together the connection on the black box (balun?) seemed to move way too muc (in and out). Could it be that I have a faulty balun and that is why I lost UHF and not VHF.
> 
> 
> Man this is getting more and more frustrating
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Every time I think I have it, victory is snatched out of my hands again and again!
> 
> 
> Any thoughts would certainly be welcomed!



Remember while you are troubleshooting the CM7777 has a UHF and a VHF section and a switch internally to separate them. Don't overlook bad connections within the amp or internal switch itself. The cold/damp can shrink a poor connection enough to make it intermittant. Take a hair dryer along to see if heat helps.


----------



## miztahsparklez




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *miztahsparklez* /forum/post/12857864
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *andy.s.lee* /forum/post/12665052
> 
> 
> *Apparently we have a large TERK antenna inside the conference room that is adjacent to the room that I am working in. I have been informed that it does work, but I have not verified that myself. The setup seems to be an outdoor antenna, a few feet in length, maybe the diameter of a small coffee can. It happens to be just leaning against the wall in the room with all the wires. Luckily, the side of the building the antenna is working in faces at least two of the major broadcast locations.*
> 
> 
> Assuming that your building composition is cooperative, then I have a few questions:
> 
> 
> 1) Is this a temporary setup or long term?
> *The setup is long term*
> 
> 
> 2) Are you interested in all digital channels or just one?
> *The more channels the better. However, there's no real specific channel needs to get to.*
> 
> 
> 3) Can you access the space above the drop-ceiling?
> *Sure can, but it's preferable to keep the wire running within the same section of the room, as the building likes to have any extraneous wiring run by the electrician. I will have to double check to see what is acceptable by building policies.*
> 
> 
> 4) Are you willing to ask for roof access (sometimes it's easier than you think)?
> *I think we are looking to minimize the complexity here. Roof access would be too much trouble for what usage the antenna would actually get. ( we already have DirecTV and the like)*
> 
> 
> 5) Are there any constraints on antenna visibility/appearance?
> *It would be nice to have something we can hide away in a corner somewhere.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for your replies
Click to expand...



Any other thoughts on this? Ive added my commentary in bold.


----------



## mangokm40

Hello.


I'm a neophyte looking for ideas.







The following is the information I get when I type my address at antennaweb.org:


yellow - uhf 69.1 TFA 32° 20.1 47

yellow - uhf 4.1 CBS 29° 18.3 22

yellow - uhf 33.1 MNT 31° 18.5 32

yellow - vhf 10.1 ABC 31° 18.4 9

yellow - uhf 44 IND 35° 21.1 44

yellow - uhf 35.1 ION 32° 20.1 26

yellow - uhf 51.1 TEL 32° 20.1 52

yellow - vhf 7.1 FOX 31° 18.2 8

yellow - uhf 2.1 PBS 32° 17.9 18

yellow - uhf 6.1 NBC 29° 18.3 31

yellow - uhf 17.1 PBS 33° 19.6 20

yellow - uhf 23.1 UNI 29° 18.3 24

lt green - uhf 46.1 TBN 35° 21.1 46

red - uhf 39.1 CW 29° 18.3 19


My rabbit-ear test picked up everything (and more!) on UHF. However, I can't make the dipoles pick up the 2 VHF channels. Since they are going to stay VHF (8 moves to 7 and 9 moves to 10) next year, whatever solution I get will likely continue to work. I was going to get a Winegard GS1100 because they can be had for 

Thanks for your time.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mangokm40* /forum/post/12931558
> 
> 
> My rabbit-ear test picked up everything (and more!) on UHF. However, I can't make the dipoles pick up the 2 VHF channels. Since they are going to stay VHF (8 moves to 7 and 9 moves to 10) next year, whatever solution I get will likely continue to work. I was going to get a Winegard GS1100 because they can be had for
> 
> 
> It appears that you are in the Miami, FL area?
> 
> 
> I'm guessing that multi-path interference is hampering your VHF signals. A real outdoor antenna like Rick suggests above would be good, as staying with an indoor solution may be problematic.
> 
> 
> I have not had much success coming up with an indoor VHF directional antenna, which would help multi-path. Physics dictate that a directional VHF antenna will have to be larger.
> 
> 
> How big would a "bow-tie" high-VHF antenna need to be I wonder... 4x as big as a 4228? It's no wonder I haven't seen one and that VHF relies on boom types.


----------



## johnstonamerica

does it matter if the coax from my 91xg passes right by the 3176 on the way down to the preamp? could that be the reason I'm getting no UHF?


it may even touch it at times when the rotor turns...


----------



## johnstonamerica

thanks Rick - yes the tuner is swithed to off air correctly. I have taken apart the 7777 and everything looks to be OK inside.


Now I have the mast back off the roof (a real pita in the cold!) and have the balun apart from the 91XG.


Connections look good there too

I have no clue.. guess I'll double check all connections as suggested tomorrow am..


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *donnyjaguar* /forum/post/12927646
> 
> 
> Hi guys. I'm considering stacking 4 UHF yagis vertically on one pole. What's the best way to feed this kind of rig? Right now I'm leaning towards joining the equal lengths of 300Ω twinlead at a common point connected directly to the coax. I'll then use a current balun on the 75Ω coax. This is what the ham guys do. I've not tried it myself (due to weather in NE) so I thought I'd see how others were doing it. RF savvy on this end so no need to laymanize response.
> 
> 
> Ta



Ham Radio bands are narrow and hence quarter-wavelength combiners are

usable across the entire (narrow) band.


However, UHF TV covers 2:1 in wavelength so you need to use RF Combiners.


A conventional 4-Way Splitter/Combiner will have about 1 dB of insertion loss

(and 6 dB combining gain) if all of the signals arrive with same signal strength

and phase (unlikely) and the antenna elements are "matched" so that the

various signals have the same signal energy and phase (possible, but small

variations degrade the matchings). Mismatches are dissipated in an internal resistor.


The Triax 841/UHF Stripline Combiner (and Lindsay 4WCU 4-Port Combiner)

use modern microstrip technology to avoid this matching problem, resulting

in an inserion loss of only 0.2 dB irrespective of poor input "matching":
http://www.triax.co.uk/?alPage=&rkPa...-4B524F03A2CB} 

See page 59 in Triax Catalog.


Since Lindsay (Ottawa Canada) was bought out by Wade/Taco/Delhi, I've

been unable to locate a source (if any are left).


----------



## kycubsfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/12912725
> 
> 
> Thank you for the info. I have a few questions.
> 
> 
> What antenna are you using?



I'm using a Terk TV-36 mounted at the peak of my single-story home's roof.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/12912725
> 
> 
> How does WDKY (4) compare with the upper VHF stations in the area: WLJC (7), WYMT (12) and WKYT (13). WKYT appears to be about 10 miles behind WDKY. The others are closer, is it easy to receive them?



I get WLJC-7 without fail. I've never been able to tune WKYT-13.


WYMT-12 is available only intermittently, but I attribute this to man-made obstructions in my immediate area which block my view toward Hazard. I plan to mount a Wade VIP-307/AD XG91 combo on a 60 ft. (or higher) tower to clear a shot to Hazard, as well as give me a chance at the UHF digital PBS (WKHA-35) and post-transition VHF digitals in Knoxville (WBIR-10) and Johnson City (WCYB-5.)



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/12912725
> 
> 
> The power levels on the VHF Lexington area stations are quite high at between 26.5 and 50kW, which no doubt helps reception. WDKY is listed as the 4th most powerful low VHF-station for 2009, after KYES (AK), WCES (GA) and KVBC (NV). The median Low-VHF power is around 7kW.



Interesting. I assume this was done with the challenges of the Lexington DMA in mind.


----------



## Mister B

Since no one else has answered this question I looked up some information today. It is a bit unusual to have major broadcast stations from three different directions. You have 5 channels from roughly 60 degrees and another 4 from about 335 degrees. As the PBS station at 182 is the third in your market, possibly you could do without that channel.

I looked up channel assignments for February 2009 and none of yours are going to change, also unusual. Your PBS station, WTVI is the only VHF frequency being on 11. I usually do not recommend trying to get VHF with a UHF antenna, however it is up to you if you would like to try depending on how important this channel is to you and there is the PBS affiliate WUNG on 44.

Pointing one UHF antenna half way between the two transmitter sites may or may not work. The 4 and 8 bay "bowtie" units do have a wider degree of signal capture range than Yagi units, so you could give it a try. If the signal is not sufficient then you would have to resort to either a rotor or two antennas with one pointed in each direction and select between them with a switch. As you have indicated that you are interested in connecting more than one TV, a rotor or switch does not allow all TV's to have access to all of the channels at once. Be aware that "omni-directional" antennas seldom perform well and you can not just tie two antennas of the same frequency range together with a coupler.

As for tapping into the existing cable line to distribute the signal throughout the house, if having Internet service also means keeping basic cable TV the frequencies would overlap, especially that channel 11. It would be far more preferable to run separate cable for the antenna system and keep the number of taps to a minimum. Again, you could experiment and try to use the existing cable but it may not work.

This is probably a more complicated answer than you had hoped for, but as I stated above, you are in a rather unique situation.


----------



## cpcat

Just FYI for this thread Research Communications now has a new line of HDTV preamps with the addition of much needed surge protection. I have the 9254/9255 combo and it's excellent. The additional surge protection hasn't altered performance in any way that I can tell. RC continues to make the best performing wideband uhf preamp available for long distance reception IMO. The only drawback has been ruggedness/reliability which presumably should now be improved with the addition of surge protection.


The wideband version (9254) is also excellent for high band vhf but requires that you add your own front-end filtering in most situations. I use the hi port of a hi/lo combiner (Pico).

http://www.researchcomms.com/hdtv.html


----------



## mangokm40

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I guess I knew the answer but hoped for some 'magic bullet'.







I guess I'll get the 7694 and try it in the attic first. If that doesn't work well, I'll bite the bullet and put it where it belongs.










Thanks again.


----------



## Nicolae

Hey guys, I've recently re-done my HTPC setup, and am now using a Silicondust HDHomeRun. However, when trying to split my current antenna's signal to go to both tuners, I'm no longer able to reliably watch some of the stations that come in just fine without the splitter. The antenna itself is starting to fall apart (just like the last one I had, it's a silver sensor clone from Philips) and I've been looking into getting a new one but I'm kinda lost.


I'm outside of Richmond, VA, 21 miles from all but one transmitter, and I'm 17 miles from that one. Right now, I've got the SS pointing out a window on the back of my house, which works well with some slight issues picking up the local Fox station (anything that makes the antenna vibrate, even slightly, causes it to break up).


I figure going for an outdoor antenna is best, even if I have to crawl under the house to run the cable. I'd prefer something I can just mount on the side of the house (for now), and I was looking at both the Antennas Direct DB2 and the ChannelMaster 4220, which seem to be similar. However, I will need something that can pick up VHF channel 12 come 2009, as the local NBC affiliate will be going back to their current analog station then.


My other question is whether I'll need a preamp or amp for this, for splitting it into 2 (and possibly 4 down the road).


No idea if it'll be helpful, but I've attached my TV Fool "Radar" map. I'm only interested in the first 6 stations, the CW would be nice but I'd have to deal with my neighbor's backyard jungle to get a signal.


----------



## Falcon_77

I would suggest moving up to the 4221 instead of the 4220. You probably won't want a very strong pre-amp at your range. The Winegard HDP-269 is probably the best bet, but I would suggest trying a 4221 w/o a pre-amp first.


The 4221 may also be enough to receive the VHF channel 12, but you want to consider one of the new Winegards as well:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=HD7694P


----------



## Dan Kolton

I presently have an attic antenna, and would like to try it outside, but don't want to go on the roof. I'm right on top of most stations (3-6 miles) but have big problems when it gets at all windy. Is it possible to mount on the side of the house at, say, 10 or 12 feet above the ground and expect any improvement? What about lighting protection?


----------



## Ben98gs

Looking into setting this up with my tax check, but do not really know where to start.


I would prefer to have the antenna in attic (I think there might be something in the neighborhood association rules about antennas... But I thought I read somewhere that it was against the law for them to try and limit you on where you can mount them... Maybe someone can chime in on that too), but would possibly be willing to go with a roof mount if it was small enough in size that I could "hide" it on the back of the house (I am the first house you see coming into the housing addition).


Here is a list of the local stations from antennaweb (I live at zip code 46055 at approximately N 700 W and Pendleton Pike/SR67)


yellow - uhf WTHR-DT 13.1 NBC INDIANAPOLIS IN 288° 13.4 46

yellow - uhf WRTV-DT 6.1 ABC INDIANAPOLIS IN 279° 14.0 25

yellow - uhf WXIN-DT 59.1 FOX INDIANAPOLIS IN 276° 14.1 45

yellow - uhf WNDY-DT 23.1 MNT MARION IN 4° 18.5 32

green - uhf WFYI-DT 20.1 PBS INDIANAPOLIS IN 279° 14.0 21

green - vhf WISH-DT 8.1 CBS INDIANAPOLIS IN 276° 14.3 9

red - uhf WFYI 20 PBS INDIANAPOLIS IN 279° 14.0 20

red - uhf WIPX-LP 51 ION INDIANAPOLIS IN 240° 14.0 51

red - vhf WISH 8 CBS INDIANAPOLIS IN 276° 14.3 8

red - uhf WIIH-CA 17 UNI INDIANAPOLIS IN 276° 14.3 17

red - uhf WBXI-CA 47 IND INDIANAPOLIS IN 276° 14.3 47

red - uhf WDTI 69 DAY INDIANAPOLIS IN 261° 13.0 69

red - uhf WDTI-DT 44 DAY INDIANAPOLIS IN TBD 277° 14.3 44

red - vhf WRTV 6 ABC INDIANAPOLIS IN 279° 14.0 6

red - uhf WXIN 59 FOX INDIANAPOLIS IN 276° 14.1 59

red - vhf WTHR 13 NBC INDIANAPOLIS IN 288° 13.4 13

red - uhf WNDY 23 MNT MARION IN 4° 18.5 23

red - uhf WHMB 40 IND INDIANAPOLIS IN 277° 14.3 40

red - uhf WALV-CA 50 IND INDIANAPOLIS IN 288° 13.4 50

red - uhf WCLJ 42 TBN BLOOMINGTON IN 203° 34.9 42

red - uhf WCLJ-DT 56.1 TBN BLOOMINGTON IN 203° 34.9 56

red - uhf WTTK 29 CW KOKOMO IN 2° 31.6 29

red - uhf WHMB-DT 40.1 IND INDIANAPOLIS IN 349° 9.5 16

blue - uhf WTTK-DT 29.1 CW KOKOMO IN 2° 31.6 54

blue - uhf WIPB 49 PBS MUNCIE IN 61° 35.2 49

blue - uhf WIPB-DT 49.1 PBS MUNCIE IN 67° 32.3 52

blue - vhf WTTV 4 CW BLOOMINGTON IN 203° 34.7 4

blue - uhf WTTV-DT 29.1 CW BLOOMINGTON IN 203° 34.7 48

blue - uhf WIPX 63 ION BLOOMINGTON IN 202° 34.8 63

blue - uhf WDNI-LP 65 IND INDIANAPOLIS IN 255° 12.3 65

violet - uhf WIPX-DT 63.1 ION BLOOMINGTON IN 202° 34.8 27

violet - uhf WLFI 18 CBS LAFAYETTE IN 318° 50.0 18


There are no real stations that I need, but would like everything red, yellow, and green (could care less about the blue and violet, but if I can get them, I would not complain).


I currently do not have anything, so what OTA box and antenna would your recommend for me.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Nicolae* /forum/post/12949446
> 
> 
> Hey guys, I've recently re-done my HTPC setup, and am now using a Silicondust HDHomeRun. However, when trying to split my current antenna's signal to go to both tuners, I'm no longer able to reliably watch some of the stations that come in just fine without the splitter. The antenna itself is starting to fall apart (just like the last one I had, it's a silver sensor clone from Philips) and I've been looking into getting a new one but I'm kinda lost.
> 
> 
> I'm outside of Richmond, VA, 21 miles from all but one transmitter, and I'm 17 miles from that one. Right now, I've got the SS pointing out a window on the back of my house, which works well with some slight issues picking up the local Fox station (anything that makes the antenna vibrate, even slightly, causes it to break up).
> 
> 
> I figure going for an outdoor antenna is best, even if I have to crawl under the house to run the cable. I'd prefer something I can just mount on the side of the house (for now), and I was looking at both the Antennas Direct DB2 and the ChannelMaster 4220, which seem to be similar. However, I will need something that can pick up VHF channel 12 come 2009, as the local NBC affiliate will be going back to their current analog station then.
> 
> 
> My other question is whether I'll need a preamp or amp for this, for splitting it into 2 (and possibly 4 down the road).
> 
> 
> No idea if it'll be helpful, but I've attached my TV Fool "Radar" map. I'm only interested in the first 6 stations, the CW would be nice but I'd have to deal with my neighbor's backyard jungle to get a signal.



I don't disagree with Falcon_77's suggestions, they're right on target.


However, if you're interested in a lower profile antenna, check out RS 15-2185:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2348191 
http://rsk.imageg.net/graphics/uc/rs...2187_PM_EN.pdf 

It has a wide UHF beamwidth (like 4-Bay) to cover both arrival directions,

has a built-in low-gain (10dB), high overload preamp and moderate VHF performance.

Cost is about same as 4-Bay plus Preamp....


So you have a range of options from 2-Bay (probably needs a Preamp), 4-Bay, R-S Disc

and long-range HD7694P that may pick up stations towards SE (with a rotator).


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/12937997
> 
> 
> Just FYI for this thread Research Communications now has a new line of HDTV preamps with the addition of much needed surge protection. I have the 9254/9255 combo and it's excellent. The additional surge protection hasn't altered performance in any way that I can tell. RC continues to make the best performing wideband uhf preamp available for long distance reception IMO. The only drawback has been ruggedness/reliability which presumably should now be improved with the addition of surge protection.
> 
> 
> The wideband version (9254) is also excellent for high band vhf but requires that you add your own front-end filtering in most situations. I use the hi port of a hi/lo combiner (Pico).
> 
> http://www.researchcomms.com/hdtv.html



Another recent entry from the top of the heap.This one is a dedicated Broadcast quality low-noise DTV preamplifier for the most discerning buyer.And,it even comes with a 24V power supply! All for the low,low price of 499.00.Sounds like a bargain to me.Click n scroll...

http://www.tonercable.com/Product.aspx?ID=1615


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/12962726
> 
> 
> All for the low,low price of 499.00.Sounds like a bargain to me.



Looks interesting. Trying to empty my wallet?


----------



## bozey45

My antenna will be on a high gable near center of the house. My ground wire run is about 30 feet to roof edge then down 20 feet or so, to an existing ground rod. Question is can I run this through a metal gable vent trough that starts right below the antenna mast? There are holes ever so often to attach the wire to the trough so it would not be loose on the roof. The wire is #10 copper insulated; it would go off the roof edge gently curved downward down the side of the house through a long plastic cable hider like cable and satellite companies do to hide their cables. The antenna mast has to go this location on the house because of trees at a gable end that would be too close to the antenna and also I wanted it as high as I could get because of a stand of trees about 300 feet south of me towards the towers in Riverview, FL. The other way i could run the ground wire is down a short 8 foot or so of gable down to an added on metal sun room roof then a run of 12 feet to it's edge and down to a ground rod, this run somewhat shorter (about 25 feet), would only have to drive a ground rod at this location; I know its preferred to have the ground wire run short but the reason I was thinking of that first run is that it goes to an existing ground rod for the house. The ground rod stuff is new to me, never grounded an antenna mast at my other house that was up for 25 years, just never did it; this time I'm trying to do it correctly; any suggestions about these 2 choices of runs are appreciated.


----------



## mlmahon

Hey, anybody know the recommended spacing for stacking 2 91XG's vertically??


----------



## bozey45

All the recommendations I see say 4 to 5 feet spacing between antennas.


----------



## donnyjaguar

Run the ground wire as short and straight as you can. I personally would use a separate 10ft ground rod for the antenna. There is a potential to cause ground loops if your collective AV system is in any way grounded to the other (power) ground in your house. These problems are not insurmountable though. Basically you want to keep a direct hit out of your house. Tying the antenna to a ground shared with your electrical outlets does provide a path into your dwelling.


----------



## bozey45

Yes, glad you said that, I did choose the separate path that is shorter and has the separate ground rod; got that done today; the only deviation of the ground wire from straight from the antenna mast is where it goes over the edge of the sun room roof, actually a gutter edge down to the rod. From the gable mount I have it going thru 3 standoffs down the gable to the sun room roof.


----------



## hdtvluvr

bozey45

According to most electrical codes, any extra ground rods must be bonded with the main electrical ground. This means that a wire must connect both ground rods. I believe code says 10 ga. solid copper is the minimum.


Having a separate ground can cause a ground loop which can cause electrical interference with your electronics.


It should be evident that grounding the antenna is not for providing a path from the antenna to the ground when lightning hits it. The ground wire is there to remove any buildup of electrical charge (due to wind, etc.) which can actually draw a lightning strike. Lightning most likely will destroy the wire from your antenna to the ground should your antenna take a direct strike. I've heard that some insurance companies will look for non-bonded grounds when claims are made for lightning problems such as house burning, electronic failures, etc. and deny claims if any are found.


Call you local electrical code enforcement office and see what is required. You can call anonymously if you desire.


----------



## scsiguy72




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DECdaze* /forum/post/12639540
> 
> 
> Let me make it swim some more. A good website with HD and antenna information is:
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/
> 
> 
> 
> If you could provide your just zipcode, we might be able to provide more detailed suggestions.
> 
> 
> By the way, at those distance you will want to preamplify the signal.
> 
> 
> No doubt others can provide more detailed responses.



I want to thank all the people on this forum that helped me out with this.


Yesterday I put up a VU-120RX (Radio Shack $29.00) and a 5 foot mast strapped to my Chimney pointed the unit without a compass due west hoping to pick up the Sutro Towers 45 miles away in San Francisco. No Pre-Amp and about 50 feet of RG6 cable.


I was very pleased at the results. I got 29 Digital channels (about half were Spanish or other languages)


I can get all the networks 2 different PBS stations and most channels are giving me somewhere between 5-7 bars of signal strength. Very happy with the picture and my next call will be to Direct TV to cancel my service and go OTA only


I live in Livermore 94550


----------



## donnyjaguar




> Quote:
> I was very pleased at the results. I got 64 Digital channels



That calls for a resounding RIGHT ON!!

I have 19 DTV channels right now and I'm already crying tears of joy.










> Quote:
> According to most electrical codes, any extra ground rods must be bonded with the main electrical ground.



Not 'round these parts. Although I concede that this is generally fine. Provided the path of least resistance is to ground, you should be fine.


> Quote:
> Having a separate ground can cause a ground loop which can cause electrical interference with your electronics.



You see this happen when running CableTV into your FM receiver. If you put a pair of baluns back to back you get rid of the ground loop. Most AV equipment nowadays doesn't have the third prong on the cord, largely to avoid these type of problems.


> Quote:
> It should be evident that grounding the antenna is not for providing a path from the antenna to the ground when lightning hits it.



Sorry, this is just not correct.


> Quote:
> The ground wire is there to remove any buildup of electrical charge (due to wind, etc.) which can actually draw a lightning strike.



This is quite true. If the collective system is more positively charged than the surrounding area, and this can definitely happen if there's no ground, it will be more appealing to lightning.


> Quote:
> Lightning most likely will destroy the wire from your antenna to the ground should your antenna take a direct strike.



That's why you need to use a nice thick one like 0 AWG.










> Quote:
> I've heard that some insurance companies will look for non-bonded grounds when claims are made for lightning problems such as house burning, electronic failures, etc. and deny claims if any are found.



I've never heard of this insurance company mentality. If it were the case then they would've completely denied the claim of my neighbour whose undrounded satellite dish on the peak of the roof took the hit. The fire gutted the house, BTW. If it was grounded properly this wouldn't have happened.


----------



## hdtvluvr

Thanks for your opinion. However, if you search the net you will find numerous articles that explain the reason for grounding. Here is an excerpt of one:


"One very important thing to know about grounding. Having it present will NOT protect you if you take a direct or even a secondary hit. What it does, is reduce the probability of getting hit in the first place and it provides much better protection against the damaged caused by the silent hits which is the most common of all static electricity damage. Many misunderstand this important point and I cannot repeat this point too often"


Here is the full link:

http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/hdrec...grounding.html 


Hopefully, the OP grounded the coax and antenna.


----------



## ccaihc

So, I have a Terk HDTVi antenna, it's uhf/vhf. I live in Worcester, Ma. I'm trying to pick up an HD channel from Boston which is 29.3 miles away. Now, antennaweb says it's light purple(which I'm not really sure I know what it means, is that bad?) Now, if I use tvfool it says it's the 3rd best signal and that I should be recieving it. I'm really confused about what I should do. I've tried pointing it everywhere, is there just no way I'm going to recieve ABC or PBS(same tower)?


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ccaihc* /forum/post/12994808
> 
> 
> So, I have a Terk HDTVi antenna, it's uhf/vhf. I live in Worcester, Ma. I'm trying to pick up an HD channel from Boston which is 29.3 miles away. Now, antennaweb says it's light purple(which I'm not really sure I know what it means, is that bad?) Now, if I use tvfool it says it's the 3rd best signal and that I should be recieving it. I'm really confused about what I should do. I've tried pointing it everywhere, is there just no way I'm going to recieve ABC or PBS(same tower)?



Can you consider an outdoor antenna or at least an attic antenna? I don't think an indoor antenna is going to get it done in Worcester.


Are you getting any channels right now or are these the only problem stations?


WUNI is close at about 7 miles, which makes amplification problematic as well.


----------



## piratefan2

Hi,


I have a CM 4228 antenna and a CM 7775 preamp that I hooked up last Sunday. I am new to this stuff, but it was working great. When I came home last night, I couldn't get some channels that are on the fringes of what I can pick up. I checked the connections and they all seemed fine.


I have the 7775 going to a splitter that combines it with a set of rabbit ears (for vhf) before going to the tv.


I tried going straight fromthe 7775 to the TV, and I ended not being able to pick up ANY stations! When I unplugged the 7775 from the power outlet, I was back to getting just my very local channels.


What should I do?


Thanks.


----------



## holl_ands

Is the VHF/UHF power combiner/splitter between the

Power Insertion Module and the Preamp?


If it is, it may not be passing DC Power to the Preamp.

The fol. Micom device passes DC and has only 0.5 dB insertion loss

(vice 3.5+ dB for typical Cable or SAT RF Splitter/Combiner):
http://www.beachaudio.com/Pico-Macom...CID=C12585x003 

Check for inadvertent shorts in the various cables and other components.


Due to high loss, you especially want to avoid DC Passing Satellite

Splitter/Combiners and Radio Shack's RS-1234

"UHF/VHF 2-Way Coaxial Coupler/Combiner":
http://support.radioshack.com/suppor...oc31/31128.htm


----------



## piratefan2

No. The combiner/splitter is between the indoor component of the preamp (I don't what the technical name for this part is) and the TV.


However, when I went straight from the preamp to the TV (no splitter at all), the TV couldn't get a signal if the preamp was plugged in to the power outlet. When I would unplug the power to the preamp, I would get a signal (just not as strong as it was a couple of days ago).


----------



## holl_ands

The technical name for the little box that plugs into the wall outlet is

"Power Insertion Module" (PIM)...it inserts DC power onto the coax.

So, YES, your VHF/UHF Combiner is between the PIM and the Preamp.


Where are you located...zipcode and preferably nearby cross streets???


----------



## Nicolae




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/12952849
> 
> 
> I would suggest moving up to the 4221 instead of the 4220. You probably won't want a very strong pre-amp at your range. The Winegard HDP-269 is probably the best bet, but I would suggest trying a 4221 w/o a pre-amp first.
> 
> 
> The 4221 may also be enough to receive the VHF channel 12, but you want to consider one of the new Winegards as well:
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=HD7694P





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/12955907
> 
> 
> I don't disagree with Falcon_77's suggestions, they're right on target.
> 
> 
> However, if you're interested in a lower profile antenna, check out RS 15-2185:
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2348191
> http://rsk.imageg.net/graphics/uc/rs...2187_PM_EN.pdf
> 
> It has a wide UHF beamwidth (like 4-Bay) to cover both arrival directions,
> 
> has a built-in low-gain (10dB), high overload preamp and moderate VHF performance.
> 
> Cost is about same as 4-Bay plus Preamp....
> 
> 
> So you have a range of options from 2-Bay (probably needs a Preamp), 4-Bay, R-S Disc
> 
> and long-range HD7694P that may pick up stations towards SE (with a rotator).



I don't intend to mount anything on the roof, so anything that can't be mounted to a wall like a dish or something is out. Is the 4221 too bulky/awkward for such a mount?


I also don't know if I would even need that much antenna; even with a simple UHF loop I get all the locals with only intermittent dropouts. Again, though, I do want to split it to 2, maybe 4 at some point so I may just be better off with a larger antenna than trying to mess with an (pre)amp at this range?


Also, based on my (probably wrong) interpretation of some graphs over at HDTV Primer , the 4221 has slightly better gain on channel 12 than a set of rabbit ears. Given that I can currently receive analog channel 12 almost perfectly with (indoor) rabbit ears, is that a good indication that the 4221 will do well for me with channel 12 come 2009? The current analog and digital transmitters are on the same tower, but I believe the analog has the height advantage. Honestly, if the 4221 will suffice for channel 12 and can be wall-mounted I'll probably go with that.


Thanks for the help so far!


----------



## piratefan2

My zipcode is 28513.


I had the combiner bewtween the PIM and the TV, but I have taken that out of the equation.


I replaced the 7775 with a 7777 and I'm getting the same problem. I get only my closests channels (7, 9, 14) without plugging the 7777 into the power outlet. When I plug it into the power outlet, I get nothing.


I was getting 7, 9, 11, 12, 14, 25, 28, & 50 before I started having these problems.


Is it possible that some water got into my coax cable and that that is causing a problem?


I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions.


----------



## cpcat

Welcome to the random and changing nature of TV reception. Judging from your location, you are too close to your locals for that preamp. You probably don't need a preamp at all. What's most likely happening is you are overloading the TV's tuner and/or the preamp. That's why it improves with the ps unplugged and the splitter in-line. How were you getting the signals initially? See the first line above.


----------



## piratefan2

I was getting a great signal initially. I was able to pick up 5, 7, 9, 11, 12, 14, 25, 28, & 50. Now, all of a sudden, I'm only getting 7, 9, 12, & 14 when the amp is unplugged.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *piratefan2* /forum/post/13008360
> 
> 
> I was getting a great signal initially. I was able to pick up 5, 7, 9, 11, 12, 14, 25, 28, & 50. Now, all of a sudden, I'm only getting 7, 9, 12, & 14 when the amp is unplugged.



Unplugging the power module and keeping the pre-amp in the path will greatly attenuate the signal. Looking at the TV Fool plot for your area (attached), you are too close to local TV stations for the 7777 and/or the 7775 from overload.


With local stations under 5 miles, even the relatively overload resistant Winegard HDP-269 may have problems.


What problems were you trying to solve when you installed the pre-amp?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *piratefan2* /forum/post/13008360
> 
> 
> I was getting a great signal initially. I was able to pick up 5, 7, 9, 11, 12, 14, 25, 28, & 50. Now, all of a sudden, I'm only getting 7, 9, 12, & 14 when the amp is unplugged.



That's why I said "Welcome to the random/changing nature of TV reception".










Initially, the local signals were likely attenuated for some other reason allowing reception of the more distant ones and preventing overload. Under more typical conditions (now) you are experiencing overload at either the amp or tuner or both.


You're better off either with no preamp at all or using a much lower gain amp with higher signal handling characteristics. The bottom line may be that it's difficult/impractical for you to receive the more distant stations due to the locals. One idea would be to run RG-11from your antenna to a low noise distribution amp like the ChannelVision CVT-15PIA at the first indoor opportunity.


Another possibility would be a GaSFet amp with high signal handling characteristics and low noise (also expensive). http://www.tonercable.com/Product.aspx?ID=1615


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *piratefan2* /forum/post/13005320
> 
> 
> My zipcode is 28513.
> 
> 
> I had the combiner between the PIM and the TV, but I have taken that out of the equation.
> 
> 
> I replaced the 7775 with a 7777 and I'm getting the same problem. I get only my closest channels (7, 9, 14) without plugging the 7777 into the power outlet. When I plug it into the power outlet, I get nothing.
> 
> 
> I was getting 7, 9, 11, 12, 14, 25, 28, & 50 before I started having these problems.
> 
> 
> Is it possible that some water got into my coax cable and that that is causing a problem?
> 
> 
> I really appreciate you taking the time



Were you simply unplugging power to Power Insertion Module or did you

physically bypass the Preamp???

A Preamp without power is going to block most signals---unless they leak across.


Hopefully you're using the CM-4228 with a rotator in order to optimize reception....

Which may mean pointing one of the two sidelobe nulls (at +/- 30 degrees)...

or rear of the antenna...towards nearby strong stations:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html 


========================

Zipcode 28513 is location of the U.S. Post Office, East of Ayden N.C.


There is a tower with two Megawatt transmitters only 1 mile NNE away.

Another tower with a Megawatt transmitter is only 3.2 miles SW away.

And a tower with four more strong stations only 4.7 miles SSW away.


You didn't provide nearby cross streets, but it's clear you are in the midst of

extremely high signal levels.


There is essentially NO WAY to get a Preamp working in your situation.


And even without a Preamp, the strong signals can generate unwanted

intermod products in the RF front-end of your HDTV, making it much less

sensitive on certain affected channels.


========================

These strong signals COULD be leaking into cables, connectors....and even

directly into your HDTV.


First thing is to make sure connectors are secure and carefully crimped.

You may need to cut off and use a crimping tool to install a new connector.

Quad shielded RG-6 is recommended to minimize leakage into the cable.


Second thing to try is to insert an RF Attenuator on your HDTV's input.

Two of 2-Way RF Splitters in series....or a 4-Way RF Splitter will insert 8 dB

of attenuation....which reduces intermod products by a factor of three...or 24 dB.

[And a single 2-Way RF Splitter reduces intermods by 12 dB.]


Radio Shack may have a variable RF Attenuator (RS 15-678) for more

careful tweaking....or order from Antennas Direct:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/attenuator.html 


If you are still not quite satisfied, a Dual-Notch Filter tuned to CH14

can also be inserted to attenuate the strongest nearby signal.

And maybe a second tuned to CH38....or simply wait for Feb2009...
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=UT-2700 
http://www.summitsource.com/product_...oducts_id=5344 

BTW: In these Dual Notch filters, one notch targets the video carrier

and the other targets the audio carrier.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13011318
> 
> 
> If you are still not quite satisfied, a Dual-Notch Filter tuned to CH14
> 
> can also be inserted to attenuate the strongest nearby signal.
> 
> And maybe a second tuned to CH38....or simply wait for Feb2009...
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=UT-2700
> http://www.summitsource.com/product_...oducts_id=5344
> 
> BTW: In these Dual Notch filters, one notch targets the video carrier
> 
> and the other targets the audio carrier.



The Winegard notch filters are overpriced junk. They doubled the price recently, so I can't even buy them wholesale for any less than about $45 or so. Holl_and's retail links price them at $58 and $80.


Their notches are not even narrow enough to meaningfully center on one carrier, even with a spectrum analyzer, and you need to find a non-inductive tuner with a really thin blade to tune them. The components that you will be tuning are non-inductive but they are in close proximity to circuitry that is inductive. When I have to use one for maximum attenuation of one UHF signal, I don't even try to land them on the individual notches. I just tweak one to weaken both carriers, and then tweak the other to weaken both carriers.


Unfortunately, the only quality UHF notchtrap readily available to the general public is Blonder Tongue's MWT-u, which you can get from various suppliers for $250, and the best price I can get as a dealer is $200. If you search the internet and stumble across a page that has them for about $115, that is a very obsolete listing. I telephoned them to see what they could get them for and they said they don't even carry that product line anymore.


Eagle Comtronics recently sold me a nice, shielded single notch of about 25dB of depth, and there is one adjustment to widen the notch while sacrificing depth, making it more suitable for attenuating digital signals if necessary.


----------



## cpcat

Works well. I use it to attenuate a local analog 44. Allows me to insert a post-amplifier inline without intermodulation. Pricey though, as mentioned. Probably not a practical solution to buy two or three of these in this situation.


I agree about the Winegard filters. Not very good. I think they're too shallow and not narrow enough. Read: not a very good notch filter.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13011318
> 
> 
> If you are still not quite satisfied, a Dual-Notch Filter tuned to CH14
> 
> can also be inserted to attenuate the strongest nearby signal.
> 
> And maybe a second tuned to CH38....or simply wait for Feb2009...
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=UT-2700
> http://www.summitsource.com/product_...oducts_id=5344
> 
> BTW: In these Dual Notch filters, one notch targets the video carrier
> 
> and the other targets the audio carrier.



I'm assuming that these traps are worthless for attenuating DTV signals if they only affect NTSC audio and video carriers.


I had a dual channel filter made by Tin Lee, which shows the attenuation throughout the selected channels. I haven't had a chance to test it at the site yet however and it wasn't cheap.


A question have: Is a 5MW peak power analog NTSC signal more harmful than a 1MW average power ATSC signal? i.e. is overload more likely from NTSC signals than ATSC signals?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/13012758
> 
> 
> I'm assuming that these traps are worthless for attenuating DTV signals if they only affect NTSC audio and video carriers.
> 
> 
> I had a dual channel filter made by Tin Lee, which shows the attenuation throughout the selected channels. I haven't had a chance to test it at the site yet however and it wasn't cheap.
> 
> 
> A question have: Is a 5MW peak power analog NTSC signal more harmful than a 1MW average power ATSC signal? i.e. is overload more likely from NTSC signals than ATSC signals?



DTV 8-VSB Peak-to-Average Power Ratio is 7 dB +/- 1 dB, depending on

where you look on the probability distribution curve.


NTSC Peak-to-Average Power Ratio is 5.14 dB for Mid-Gray luminance level,

7.55 dB for Pure White and 2.23 dB for Pure Black. [That's 4.9 dB +/- 2.7 dB]


Peak-To-Average Ratios for ATSC vs NTSC overload was discussed in

Antenna/Rotator/Preamp thread on 26Sep2005, reading down through 29Sep:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...io#post6256839 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...io#post6268128 


Peaks in NTSC and DTV signals cause worst bit errors...just like overload

clipping in audio amplifiers.


NTSC horizontal sync pulses result in a very repetitive (30 Hz), peaky signal....

which doesn't vary all that much.....

Hence NTSC signals are always measured with a PEAK reading meter.


ATSC signals are more like gaussian noise and are always measured with

an AVERAGE reading meter....so need to be careful comparing apples & oranges.


Add 7 dB to ATSC AVERAGE signal level (e.g. 1 MW) to find PEAK signal level (i.e. 5 MW).


Hence a 5 MW NTSC station generates roughly the same PEAK levels as a

1 MW ATSC station---give or take some statistical arguments re how many

bit errors are caused by horiz sync pulse overload vice random ATSC spikes....


[Bit Error Rate derivation is left as a student exercise.....]


----------



## holl_ands

Specs for Blonder Tongue BT-MWT-U, Single Notch Filter:
http://www.blondertongue.com/headend/mwt.pdf 

Note notch can target either video carrier or audio carrier--

but bandwidth is too narrow to be effective against BOTH.


A simple, inexpensive notch (trap) filter can only target a narrow bandwidth...

primarily the video carrier frequency...and will provide much less

attenuation for the rest of the 6 MHz wide channel:
http://www.soontai.com/curve/TRFch5_fg1.gif 
http://www.soontai.com/da_filterprofile.html 
http://www.dewtronics.com/tutorials/...ter/neghtw.pdf 


A Dual Notch can also target the Audio carrier..and the combination

somewhat suppresses the lower level Chroma carrier....but it's far from perfect.


Dual Notch provides significant, but not "perfect", attenuation of DTV signals....

We don't need 40-80 dB of attenuation. A mere 10 dB attenuation will

suppress intermod products by 30 dB.


The "best" filter is a complex, multipole design, rather than just

one or two "poles". But very few people want to spend that much:
http://www.tinlee.com/Graph_CR7E.php?active=1 
http://www.tinlee.com/Graph_CE7_Spec_Order.php?active=1 


Really expensive but very effective Multipole Notch Filters:
http://www.cefilter.com/products/dis...dID=57&CatID=3 


Yet another Multipole Notch Filter...a DIY Kit:
http://www.dewtronics.com/tutorials/...ter/df222.html 
http://www.dewtronics.com/tutorials/...ter/notch.html


----------



## AntAltMike

Soontai filters may be inexpensive, but when I was negotiating with them a few years ago, their minimum quantity for the products I was looking at was 500 units. I think they quoted me $1.35 per unit for cylindrical lowpass filters with about 40dB of rejection and $2.00 per unit for highpass filters. I have stations from one city using channels 33-36, and from another city using 38, 40, 41 and 42, so I can primitively and inexpensively channel them from two separate antennas using "tier trap" grade filters.


I agree with holl_ands that even a cheap tunable notch filter like the Winegard will more than adequately suppress a strong digital channel. For analog reinsertion, we need over 40dB of channel-wide suppression, but to reduce overloads, we need very little attenuation.


Oops department. The filter I bought that I said in Post #6621 came from Eagle was actually a single cavity filter from Communications and Energy. I had ordered from so many companies the day I ordered it that I didn't even remember who I bought that one from. It wasn't real expensive but it did cost over $100.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13013796
> 
> 
> Yet another Multipole Notch Filter...a DIY Kit:
> http://www.dewtronics.com/tutorials/...ter/df222.html
> http://www.dewtronics.com/tutorials/...ter/notch.html



That kit only goes up to 216 MHz. I've bought similar products that go to cable channel 36 (300 MHz) but never found any that could be tuned into the UHF range. They were designed to notch out the 2.2 MHz offset, "interfering carrier" that cable companies used to use to scramble premium channels back in the 1980s. I used brag that I was the only regular customer for that product who bought it to use it legally, as I used it to reduce aural carriers in adjacent channel master antenna systems.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13013796
> 
> 
> Specs for Blonder Tongue BT-MWT-U, Single Notch Filter:
> http://www.blondertongue.com/headend/mwt.pdf
> 
> Note notch can target either video carrier or audio carrier--
> 
> but bandwidth is too narrow to be effective against BOTH.



The MWT-U actually has two separately tunable filters so this is incorrect.


----------



## AntAltMike

The notch dimension specs on the MWT-u
Code:


Code:


Notch width dB v frequency:

-3  (10 MHz)
-12 (3 MHz)
-20 (1.8MHz)

So if you tune it to +1.5 MHz and +4.5 MHz within a 6 MHz ATSC channel band, the signal will be weakened variously by anywhere from 12 to about 40 dB across the plateau. That would be unacceptable filtering for clearing out a digital a channel for analog insertion/replacement, but more than adequate for addressing overload situations that one can remedy with UHF notch filtering.


One caveat about using the MWT-u, however. I believe that the severe unevenness of the dual notches impressed upon an ATSC waveform will qualitatively degrade it to the point at which it cannot be reliable tunes, whereas gentle attenuation with cheap, Channel Master Jointennas or even Winegard UT-2700s will leave the weakened channel in a processible form. One way around this problem is to use two downleads and insert a directional coupler tap, with a low insertion loss, like a DC-20, with an insertion loss of maybe about half a dB, and put the notch filter and preamp on the through line, and use the weaker, tap port as the signal source for your stronger stations. The awkwardness of doing that is that you'd have to manually switch back and forth between the coaxes, which is inconvenient for scheduled program recording.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Specs for Blonder Tongue BT-MWT-U, Single Notch Filter:
> http://www.blondertongue.com/headend/mwt.pdf
> 
> Note notch can target either video carrier or audio carrier--
> 
> but bandwidth is too narrow to be effective against BOTH.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/13014733
> 
> 
> The MWT-U actually has two separately tunable filters so this is incorrect.



Maybe I was thinking of the old Channel Master notch filters????


I haven't used the MWT-U ($250 at starkelectronic.com).


So why does spec sheet say there are "coarse" and "fine" tuning controls...

and I only see two tweakers on the unit??? Wouldn't it need four for dual notch?


Does anyone have any actual MEASURED attenuation curves???

And perhaps instructions for tuning....


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/13015040
> 
> 
> , whereas gentle attenuation with cheap, Channel Master Jointennas



That would seem to be the easiest/cheapest way for an amateur to pre-filter strong locals as these are pre-tuned. I can't imagine the headache of trying to tune 4 or 5 notch filters. I'd probably have to call you.










The potential problem with the jointennas though would be that the broader notch might attenuate weak adjacent channels. Also, you'd have to deal with the additive loss of several in series.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13015149
> 
> 
> Maybe I was thinking of the old Channel Master notch filters????
> 
> 
> I haven't used the MWT-U ($250 at starkelectronic.com).
> 
> 
> So why does spec sheet say there are "coarse" and "fine" tuning controls...
> 
> and I only see two tweakers on the unit??? Wouldn't it need four for dual notch?
> 
> 
> ....



There's a coarse and a fine tuning adjustment for each of the two filters. The more prominent/visible adjustment screws are the fine while the coarse are flat and more flush with the housing.


Here's a better pic:


----------



## AntAltMike

The coarse and fine controls on a Blonder Tongue MWT-u just allow you to more rapidly yet precisely hit the bullseye. Each of the two traps is independently tunable over the entire UHF band. When we use attenuators to reduce aural carriers, we need to attenuate the carrier just the right amount, but if we are not careful, the deepest part of the notch falls below the aural carrier and screws up the NTSC color burst, but that is of no concern here.


The Blonder Tongue MWT-2, 3 and 4 have another knob for trap depth that the MWT-u doesn't have, but I never had to experiment with it. I have dozens of MWT-2s in service to weaken FM radio carriers before they enter an FM strip amp.


The old Channel Master tunable, UHF traps weren't very deep or very sharp, but they had nice vernier dials that made it more practical for a hobbiest without test equipment to experiment with them while eyeballing a picture on a TV screen. They also were well shielded. I still have one in use in an MDU headend. They are each independently tunable over the entire UHF spectrum as well.


You can buy AVCOM spectrum analyzers on eBay for about $700 to $800 that typically have 300 KHz resolution and are excellent for evaluating and managing broadcast HDTV signals. Comparable units sell new for about $3,500. I carry an Applied Instruments, battery operated, 5-2000 MHz white noise generator that I paid about $370 for. It is the size of a pack of cigarettes. I sometimes use it as a signal source when I try to tweak the Winegard UT-2700s, which are murder to do because I don't have a non-inductive tool that fits into their tuning slots, so I have to offtune it, watch the notch jump as I remove the tool, and then re-offtune it until the notch jumps to where I want it to be.


Someone working at Winegard was supposed to find out where they were buying the tweaker tool that they use to pretune these UT-2700s, but she never got back to me. You can tune MWT traps with an ordinary screwdriver, just as you can tune their aural carrier reducers on their strip amps with a small (1/8" or smaller blade) without the inductance of the blade affecting the attenuator notch frequency.


My favorite source of VHF tunable notch traps used to be a company called Star Circuits. They made traps that were the functional equivalent of the kits that holl-ands referenced above, but they were in shiny plastichrome cases. They used to advertise extensively in Popular Science, Popular Electronics and Electronics Now, but they are no longer in business, as their only customers other than me were people who wanted to clear beeping channels.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13015149
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any actual MEASURED attenuation curves???
> 
> And perhaps instructions for tuning....



You can take Blonder Tongue's published specs to the bank.


I just connected a Winegard UT-2700 to a white noise generator and then measured its single trap notch using a Sencore SL753D, which resolves to 100 KHz, but measures it through a 260 KHz wide filter.


My primitive Blonder Tongue BTSA-5 field-grade spectrum analyzer showed me that one notch is presently tuned to around 673 MHz. I then connected it to my Sencore meter, and took readings at 645 and 655, then in 1 MHz increments from 660 to 690, and then 700 and 710 MHz.


The maximum attenuation was 17dB at 673 MHz (around UHF channel 47). The -10dB trap depth points were at 669 MHz and 777 MHz, which is just slightly wider than one entire broadcast channel. The 3 dB attenuation points were are 663 and 685 MHz.


If you tune such a filter to the lower end of the UHF band, the notch widths will narrow slightly, proportionate to frequency, so they will be about 30% narrower at channel 14 than at channel 47.


By the way, the Sencore SL735D is nearly impossible to configure for digital signal measurement. The instruction manual doesn't tell you how to do it, and Sencore can only furnish a magazine article describing the arduous process of developing a digital, "custom" channel plan for the SL754D, which doesn't have exactly the same menu, so I've given up on it. I instead measure frequency samples within the 8VSB channel band, and then add 8dB to whatever the display reads.


----------



## ccaihc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/12996820
> 
> 
> Can you consider an outdoor antenna or at least an attic antenna? I don't think an indoor antenna is going to get it done in Worcester.
> 
> 
> Are you getting any channels right now or are these the only problem stations?
> 
> 
> WUNI is close at about 7 miles, which makes amplification problematic as well.



I don't know if it's possible, I am in a dorm. I can get telemundo and one more channel, which is another useless channel.


----------



## Dan Kolton

Is there an inexpensive method for measuring signal strenght at the antenna (other than the meter on your TV)? What instrument might one use, and how does it distinguish which channel is being measured?


----------



## AntAltMike

You can buy an analog fieldstrength meter on eBay for $20 to $40, or you can buy a digital meter that is designed to measure NTSC signals for $150 to $200, which is fine for measuring digital signals except that it will only show signal strength, but not quality (no bit error rate or flatness), and you will have to add about 8dB to whatever it says the signal strength is.


----------



## Konrad2

> Soontai filters may be inexpensive, but when I was negotiating with them a few years ago, their

> minimum quantity for the products I was looking at was 500 units. I think they quoted me $1.35

> per unit for cylindrical lowpass filters with about 40dB of rejection and $2.00 per unit for

> highpass filters.


We have a business opportunity for someone to import Soontai (or similar) filters

and sell them in small quantities. There is enough demand. My local electronics

store gets lots of inquiries, but can't quite figure out that it would be profitable

to carry things that customers are asking for.


----------



## AntAltMike

I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. There are hundreds of traps, and the customer dissatisfaction rate would be high since, quite often, the filter would not do for them what they believed they needed done. Notice that Radio Shack doesn't even carry directional taps even though there is demand for them. I am certain that the problem is that such products would also take too much sales time and result in too many returns.


Pico used to stock hundreds of thousands of tier-trap cylindrical filters. Low pass, high pass, deep notch. Then, they got out of the business. Back about seven or eight years ago, I found that they had their inventory in "dead stock" that only a few employees knew about, and they read me the inventory quantities of some filters that they had hundreds of units each of. I bought maybe 20 lowpass filters that rolled off at about UHF channel 16, half a dozen that rolled off at 27, and half a dozen highpass filters that rolled off below UHF 23 (they were all actually CATV values, which are off-shifted by 2 MHz). I paid around $6 each for them.


But a couple of years later, they had just gotten rid of that stock. I called the company that supposedly had acquired it, but they claimed they didn't have it. I was persistent, calling different people in different departments at different times at both PICO and the company that had supposedly acquired the stock, but came up empty. They, a few years later, an industry veteran went to work for PICO and I asked him to poke around and see what he could find out about them and even he came up empty. Pico can buy the parts for a fraction of what I ever could, it already had them in inventory, and it has a large distribution network, but it decided to exit that business anyway. If they could no longer make any money in the bullet filter business (because addressable cable boxes minimized the need for channel-trap type filters) then no one else can either.


I now have someone supplying me with cylindrical filters for $12.50 each in quantities of ten of each value, but they won't sell to or take calls from individuals because they could wind up expending hundred dollars of sales time for each consumer sale that they might wind up making


----------



## Konrad2

> I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.


No one said *you* had to.


> customer dissatisfaction rate would be high


speculation


The stereotypical mom isn't going to be ordering these.


> Radio Shack doesn't even carry


Radio Shack has been basically useless for decades. I'm not

sure it ever was useful.


> I am certain that the problem is that such products would

> also take too much sales time and result in too many returns.


Plenty of places are web-order only. No sales time.

The return shipping would cost more than the filter.

Add a restocking fee and you will not get returns.


> Pico used to stock hundreds of thousands of tier-trap cylindrical filters.


They still sell a few filters. As do a few other companies.


> I was persistent, calling different people ...


You have trouble getting the parts you need, and then you post that

you think that selling these parts would not be profitable, based

on one business model with high sales costs, ignoring other

business models which are successful selling similar items.

That doesn't make it easier to get the parts you need. (Someone

might believe you.)


> Pico ... decided to exit that business anyway.


Companies are run by people. Sometimes people make bad decisions.


----------



## Falcon_77

I will repost the image from yesterday that was lost when the board crashed.


I later found that Channel Master has these specs on a document on their website. It would be nice if they included these specs on all their antennas.


----------



## NJ Bulldog

Is there anything wrong installing this antenna against the side of a wall? We have regular wind gusts in the 25 to 35 knots and at least twice a year we can expect 50 knot gusts. The prevailing southerly winds would be hitting my future installation virtually right from behind and I wanted the option of mounting it on the north facing side of my chiminey. I realize that I have to get the best signal and this may not be an option. I'm questioning possible signal degradation and I don't think a wall behind an antenna makes a bit of difference, but I wanted to ask someone in the know. Thanks!


----------



## Falcon_77

I think this would probably work if the wall faces the towers that you want to receive. However, if the wall is stucco or has some other type of metal siding, this may not be a good idea, but I don't know for sure.


It sounds like a fun experiment, so I will try mounting a smaller CM4220 against a wall tonight to see what it does to the signal.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/13039644
> 
> 
> I will try mounting a smaller CM4220 against a wall tonight to see what it does to the signal.



My tests only showed 1 channel (KABC) with a lower signal quality with the back of the 4220 to the exterior wall. The other channels did not have a noticeable change.


If your stations are straight out from the wall, I think the CM4228 would work in this fashion as well.


----------



## NJ Bulldog




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/13041627
> 
> 
> My tests only showed 1 channel (KABC) with a lower signal quality with the back of the 4220 to the exterior wall. The other channels did not have a noticeable change.
> 
> 
> If your stations are straight out from the wall, I think the CM4228 would work in this fashion as well.



Thanks a heckuva lot for the extra effort, Falcon. I have a lot to do before I can test this location, but I'll make sure to post my results.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NJ Bulldog* /forum/post/13038392
> 
> 
> Is there anything wrong installing this antenna against the side of a wall? We have regular wind gusts in the 25 to 35 knots and at least twice a year we can expect 50 knot gusts. The prevailing southerly winds would be hitting my future installation virtually right from behind and I wanted the option of mounting it on the north facing side of my chiminey. I realize that I have to get the best signal and this may not be an option. I'm questioning possible signal degradation and I don't think a wall behind an antenna makes a bit of difference, but I wanted to ask someone in the know. Thanks!



I temporarily hung a 4-Bay against a brick garage pillar looking for a distant

signal. I didn't get a reliable signal until I moved it a few feet away.

Seems there was an interaction of some kind....


----------



## fletchmath

That's probably the title of 60% of the posts in this thread... sorry.


I posted in my locals thread earlier, and have concluded that I need a rooftop installation to have a good shot at picking up what I want. I've attached the TV fools output for my location. With an indoor antenna (RS mushroom), I can get a solid signal for PBS, a decent signal for NBC, a passable signal for FOX, a good signal for CW (don't watch it though, so I may be wrong), and no signal whatsoever for the VHF broadcasts, ABC and CBS. The CBS one is a low-vhf signal, which is particularly annoying, or so I gather.


From the tower distribution I gather that I need an omni-directional antenna with vhf/uhf coverage --- am I correct about that? Or, will a directional antenna be able to receive everything? Does anyone have specific antenna recommendations?


Thanks so much,

Ken


----------



## Konrad2

VHF-LO is not necessarily bad. If WHP is staying with channel 4 after

the switchover a year from now, get a good VHF-LO antenna, or better yet

a channel-4-only antenna.


And a VHF-HI or channel-10-only antennas for ABC.


You could try pointing a UHF antenna west and trying to get 23 from the rear.


And a 2nd UHF pointing south.


> omni-directional antenna


2 problems with omni-directional antennas, 1- they have less gain, so you

get weaker signals, and 2- they pick up more multipath.


You might be able to find a high gain UHF that has lobes spaced such

that you can get both the west and south stations with a single antenna.

Hunt through the graphs on http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ 


e.g.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w8800.html 
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html 
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB8.html 
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html 

and so on


> with vhf/uhf coverage


Separate VHF and UHF antennas will perform better than a combo.


You could get 1 antenna and a rotor, but then you can't record one

show and watch another.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/13046957
> 
> 
> If WHP is staying with channel 4 after
> 
> the switchover a year from now, get a good VHF-LO antenna, or better yet
> 
> a channel-4-only antenna.



WHP will be returning to its analog UHF channel (21), so a VHF Low antenna should not be needed unless reception is needed for that station in the interim.


WHTM and WGAL will both be on upper VHF in 2009, but they are well off angle from each other, but at ~22 miles perhaps a lower gain/wider angle VHF High antenna will get the job done for those two.


You may want to consider combining a CM4221 for UHF with an Antennacraft Y5-7-13 for upper VHF or try the CM4221 to see if it is enough for WHTM now.


----------



## fletchmath

I posted a couple of days ago; I'm using a RS "mushroom" and getting PBS, NBC, Fox, and CW. In a lark, I picked up the outdoor 15-2187 to give a try (I read some good things, and didn't really think my location all that challenging).


Well, the 15-2187 is an abysmal failure; Even up on the roof, I can only get a lock on PBS; nothing else comes in. The little mushroom does MUCH better.


Does this make any sense at all? I would have expected it to at least compete with the indoor antenna, but it doesn't even match the rabbit ears and loop that I tried first.


----------



## holl_ands

It's possible the R-S antenna is defective.....maybe.....

Or it's Preamp is overloaded by nearby (SE 7.2 miles) stations.

Or you aren't pointing it accurately enough for each station of interest.

You would need to control a rotator while watching Signal Quality display.

And isn't very good for CBS on CH4 (specs say -20 dB gain for Low-Band VHF).


With a rotator, I would have used an inexpensive 4-Bay (or 8-Bay or 91XG)

antenna and a separate, non-rotating, Low-Band VHF antenna for CH4:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=TD-V4 

Yes, it's rather big....as it should be for CH4....


If you don't want to use a rotator, you could try a low-gain NON-AMPLIFIED antenna,

although that kind of antenna may not be directional enough to suppress multipath

from the surrounding mountains:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...prod=ANWGS1000 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...prod=ANWGS1100 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=SMS1000 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=ANC3010


----------



## Wireman134




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fletchmath* /forum/post/13043871
> 
> 
> That's probably the title of 60% of the posts in this thread... sorry.
> 
> 
> I posted in my locals thread earlier, and have concluded that I need a rooftop installation to have a good shot at picking up what I want. I've attached the TV fools output for my location. With an indoor antenna (RS mushroom), I can get a solid signal for PBS, a decent signal for NBC, a passable signal for FOX, a good signal for CW (don't watch it though, so I may be wrong), and no signal whatsoever for the VHF broadcasts, ABC and CBS. The CBS one is a low-vhf signal, which is particularly annoying, or so I gather.
> 
> 
> From the tower distribution I gather that I need an omni-directional antenna with vhf/uhf coverage --- am I correct about that? Or, will a directional antenna be able to receive everything? Does anyone have specific antenna recommendations?
> 
> 
> Thanks so much,
> 
> Ken



I'd try the CM4221 for outside or a DIY 4 bay in the attic combined with a Y5-2-6 Yagi http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=Y5-2-6 . Pulls in VHF high band just fine for me 35 miles out.







Why not just get one antenna and a rotor if your really set on a outside install.
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=4BG26 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=CCS1233 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=CCS822 

This is my setup http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post12852274 

Do you have open attic space?


----------



## holl_ands

Channel Master VHF/UHF Combos also may be found at home improvement stores:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=ANC3016 


However, big outdoor antennas seem an overkill for "only" 19 miles, esp. since

it is unlikely to be of use for distant stations because they are so weak.


I'ld start with 4-Bay (roof or attic without rotator) and see if it happens

to ALSO pick up CH10 (fairly easy) and CH4 (more of a challenge)....

After all it's "only" 19 miles LOS...any ol' coat hanger outta work for VHF....


The 4-Bay also is likely to pick up the nearby (7.2 mile) station on the

"back" of the antenna, so no need to readjust rotator direction....

Then you can ascertain whether you need a rotator.....or not...


----------



## Wireman134




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13065241
> 
> 
> Channel Master VHF/UHF Combos also may be found at home improvement stores:
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=ANC3016
> 
> 
> However, big outdoor antennas seem an overkill for "only" 19 miles, esp. since
> 
> it is unlikely to be of use for distant stations because they are so weak.
> 
> 
> I'ld start with 4-Bay (roof or attic without rotator) and see if it happens
> 
> to ALSO pick up CH10 (fairly easy) and CH4 (more of a challenge)....
> 
> After all it's "only" 19 miles LOS...any ol' coat hanger outta work for VHF....
> 
> 
> The 4-Bay also is likely to pick up the nearby (7.2 mile) station on the
> 
> "back" of the antenna, so no need to readjust rotator direction....
> 
> Then you can ascertain whether you need a rotator.....or not...



Agree, with the 4 bay to start. It should pull in that channel 10. But I don't think that low power channel 4, that one needs a Y5-2-6, YA-6260 or V4 low band VHF antenna.


----------



## Auzivision

I just bought my first HDTV and am trying to decide what is the best avenue for receiving HD content. I’ve always used cable, was with Insight which just switched to Comcast. I’m leaning toward retaining standard cable and see what the QAM pick ups or possibly upgrading to digital cable. As a secondary (or possible primary) source I’d like to add an antenna.


I have two lines of questions ones related to digital cable and the other related to OTA antennas. I hope I’m not too off topic for this thread, but if I go to digital cable, can I still pickup regular cable on my other TVs or will they each require some type of digital cable box?


As for on topic questions… I am trying to decide which antenna to get. My choices are some sort of small inconspicuous type to mount on top or side of the chimney. By this I mean something like the Winegard Sensor GS-2200/1100, the Radio Shack 15-2187, or Channel Master 3000A. My other choice could be to put multi bow tie or Yagi style antenna in the attic above the garage. By this I mean a CM4228, CM4221A, Winegard HD7080P, or CM3016.


The access to the attic above the upstairs bed room is only 20” square so I don’t think I can get an antenna of any reasonable size up there plus it wouldn’t be easy to adjust or ad an amp if needed. The garage attic isn’t ideal either since the 2nd story of the house is blocking the strongest channels to the west, but is unobstructed for the weaker channels to the north and south. My TV is going to be mounted above my fireplace so the inconspicuous outdoor antenna wouldn’t have far to go where as the garage attic will probably require at 60 or 80 feet of coax and possibly an amp. If I could manage to get an antenna in the attic above the bedrooms, it will be a one-time deal… set it and forget it.


So my million-dollar question is… do you think I would be better off with a lesser antenna mounted somewhere on my chimney or would a more sophisticated antenna hidden in the attic further away yield better results?


----------



## Whidbey

I acquired this antenna a while back for free. I had never really tried it out until the other day. I hooked it up to the TV in my garage, held it up, and to my surprise it brought in some analog high VHF (>8) channels and UHF channels very clear. All analog, I'm waiting for my coupon converter box to test digital.
[img=http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3097/sd536573bh6.th.jpg]


----------



## Neil L

Looks to be a Channel Master 4221, or something very similar.
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...om=Large#xview


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wireman134* /forum/post/13067157
> 
> 
> Agree, with the 4 bay to start. It should pull in that channel 10. But I don't think that low power channel 4, that one needs a Y5-2-6, YA-6260 or V4 low band VHF antenna.



Maybe, but 4-Bay may surprise us at only 19 miles....

Any ol' coat hanger.....


Or a DIY folded dipole (in the attic?) for VHF:
http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Auzivision* /forum/post/13070367
> 
> 
> I just bought my first HDTV and am trying to decide what is the best avenue for receiving HD content. I've always used cable, was with Insight which just switched to Comcast. I'm leaning toward retaining standard cable and see what the QAM pick ups or possibly upgrading to digital cable. As a secondary (or possible primary) source I'd like to add an antenna.
> 
> 
> I have two lines of questions ones related to digital cable and the other related to OTA antennas. I hope I'm not too off topic for this thread, but if I go to digital cable, can I still pickup regular cable on my other TVs or will they each require some type of digital cable box?
> 
> 
> As for on topic questions I am trying to decide which antenna to get. My choices are some sort of small inconspicuous type to mount on top or side of the chimney. By this I mean something like the Winegard Sensor GS-2200/1100, the Radio Shack 15-2187, or Channel Master 3000A. My other choice could be to put multi bow tie or Yagi style antenna in the attic above the garage. By this I mean a CM4228, CM4221A, Winegard HD7080P, or CM3016.
> 
> 
> The access to the attic above the upstairs bed room is only 20 square so I don't think I can get an antenna of any reasonable size up there plus it wouldn't be easy to adjust or ad an amp if needed. The garage attic isn't ideal either since the 2nd story of the house is blocking the strongest channels to the west, but is unobstructed for the weaker channels to the north and south. My TV is going to be mounted above my fireplace so the inconspicuous outdoor antenna wouldn't have far to go where as the garage attic will probably require at 60 or 80 feet of coax and possibly an amp. If I could manage to get an antenna in the attic above the bedrooms, it will be a one-time deal set it and forget it.
> 
> 
> So my million-dollar question is do you think I would be better off with a lesser antenna mounted somewhere on my chimney or would a more sophisticated antenna hidden in the attic further away yield better results?



Re Cable: Since we don't know what COMCAST offers in your area

(maybe they are ALL DIGITAL???), you need to ask this question in your local

(Indianapolis?) thread....and/or call COMCAST.

If it isn't ALL DIGITAL, the Standard (analog) channels should show up at

any coax wall outlet.

If it's ALL DIGITAL (cable systems are in transistion....), COMCAST will need to

provide a cable box for each TV (extra cost or "free"???).


===============================

Below are www.tvfool.com results for Fisher, IN, 46038 (U.S. Post Office location).

There are several high power stations close to you, meaning you should NOT

be using a Preamp....and you may be closer than the below printout.....


Rules out GS-2200, R-S 15-2187 & C-M 3000A...no need for Preamp anyway...


Should be easy to pick up ANY station where Path = LOS (Line-Of-Sight).

But you'll need a rotator if you want WNDY-DT (MyN, My Network),

WIPB-DT (second PBS), WCLJ-DT and/or WIPX-DT.


Note that WISH-DT (CBS) is on VHF CH9...and WIIH-DT (?) on CH8.


I doubt you'll pick up WLFI-DT (2nd CBS) on CH11 due to capture of tuner's

AGC (Automatic Gain Control) by next adjacent CH13 and CH9.

AGC capture, intermod noise floor and lack of signal strength will also thwart

reception of the remaining weak stations.


In your location, I would put the antenna(s) in the attic so they are

protected from severe weather. You are certainly close enough.


As we said above, start with a 4-Bay (or 8-Bay) on a rotator and try it.

You might get lucky and receive some of the nearby stations on the

"back" of the antenna, so you may not need to rotate for every station.


Either of these should be adequate for VHF CH9. [It's ONLY 12 miles!!!!]

PS: The CM-4228 has much better VHF CH9 gain than CM-4221....about the

same as CH9 gain with CM-3016....but I'm rooting for the 4-Bay.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...1&d=1130363811 


Most 4-Bay and 8-Bay antennas either come collapsed or have removable

rear screens, so they'll fit into attic. Earlier I posted CM-4228 measurements:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...le#post6422668 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...5&d=1179549221 


I esp. liked the below attic installation photo showing CM-4228 with rotator.

You can also mount the rotator on the floor....


----------



## Auzivision

Thank you for your feedback. I’m beginning to lean towards the 4221 or similar four bay bow tie. My wife would like it in the attic, but I might be able to get away with putting it on the back side of the chimney since it most likely won’t fit through the access hole.


Now I’m trying to get an idea of how directional these bow ties really are… I presume the whiskers need to be closest to the source and the shield needs to be furthest. Perhaps some signal will come in on the sides and presume the least will come in from the opposite side of the grid.


So if I mount this to the back or side of my chimney and point it west… do I need to retain some sort of ability to rotate this? I could put it on a corner which would allow 90 degrees of rotation. If I need more, I’m back to the attic. Please let me know what your best guess would be … outside with limited mobility or in the attic with full rotation.


Thanks again for all your help.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Auzivision* /forum/post/13076453
> 
> 
> Now I'm trying to get an idea of how directional these bow ties really are



Here is a gain plot (relative to the main lobe) for the CM4221:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4221.html 


Yes, the elements (bow-ties) should face the towers, though it is still possible to receive some strong signals through the shield.


Unless you need 11 and 52, a rotor may not be needed. 32 is probably strong enough to be received from the back.


----------



## holl_ands

Roof: Antenna and coax are exposed to the elements...may have to replace more often...

and whenever it's blown over. Mast requires ground wire per NEC code requirements.

Must figure out a weather proof entry technique, including a spark gap

protection device grounded per NEC requirements....plus perhaps additional

surge protection devices (i.e. gas tube and/or MOV).


Attic: Lasts essentially forever....simple installation. At 19 miles, should be easy.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Whidbey* /forum/post/13073015
> 
> 
> I acquired this antenna a while back for free. I had never really tried it out until the other day. I hooked it up to the TV in my garage, held it up, and to my surprise it brought in some analog high VHF (>8) channels and UHF channels very clear. All analog, I'm waiting for my coupon converter box to test digital.
> [img=http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3097/sd536573bh6.th.jpg]




That's a Radio Shack antenna, I don't know the model. It's a good little unit as long as you don't expect the world from it. I use mine as my "sniffer".....when I'm looking for possible locations to try a bigger/heavier antenna, I hold that one by hand as a first test. It's smaller and much lighter than a 4221, but works quite well. By the way...you've got it upside down !!!! ;-)


----------



## dizzytaz00

Hi about 2 weeks ago I bought a Radioshack HDTV ampifed antenna Model: 15-2187 for $79.99 . Since I can't mount it outside, I use it indoors & it works great atleast ,girlfriend not yelling I want cable







Has anyone reveiwed or used this antenna?




Ok now i have pictures of this antenna but I've no where to post them. So from this antenna is working soothly. Using indoors & getting signals between 50 to 71 strength on the second floor next to a window.

I do gets some audio glitching on 2 channels. 22.1(cbs) & 28.1 (nbc) which come in hdtv of 720p & 1080I

using the Digitalstream DTX9900 the antenna comes with a 10db gain & is working fine. Any question just ask & I'll see if i can answer them.


----------



## iw84no1

Hi, I have a question about an antenna that I saw on ebay (I don't see any rules about posting links or talking about ebay, so I hope I'm not breaking any).

It's advertised as a new style for 08 and is really small with both uhf/vhf. Does anyone know about this antenna and how good it is, especially compared to an 8-bay uhf antenna? I'm less than 60 mi from Buffalo, which I need to point to and since this antenna is so cheap, I wonder if it can do the job? But I can't find any info on it on the net.

Thanks


----------



## holl_ands

Rather than referring to some "small" antenna buried somewhere

within eBay, why don't you ask what antenna you NEED....

which at 60 miles is probably going to be "big" and preferably roofmount.


You can post www.tvfool.com results as attachments

(please provide both Analog & Digital *.png's)

or at least give zipcode and nearby cross streets.


========================

Small? How small?

3-meters, 3-feet, 3-inches????


----------



## iw84no1

Well, if you search for "uhf antenna", you'll see it. It's not just 1 for sale, it's a few people selling alot of them.

When I asked for advice on an antenna, I was told to get an 8 bay uhf. But right now, with an old vhf antenna, I'm picking up 7 HD stations, including 2 of 7 that are around 60 mi's away, in Buffalo.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *iw84no1* /forum/post/13113355
> 
> 
> Well, if you search for "uhf antenna", you'll see it. It's not just 1 for sale, it's a few people selling alot of them.
> 
> When I asked for advice on an antenna, I was told to get an 8 bay uhf. But right now, with an old vhf antenna, I'm picking up 7 HD stations, including 2 of 7 that are around 60 mi's away, in Buffalo.



If you are thinking of the one attached, stay far away.


Your money would be far better spent making a 4 bay UHF antenna yourself.


----------



## iw84no1

Falcon, that's the one.

Well, this is why I'm asking. What info do you have on it? Either I didn't search hard enough on the net, but I came up empty.

I emailed and got a response back from a guy that bought this on ebay. He lives about 50mi from the tower he needs to point to. He said that he'll let me know how it works and his results.


----------



## holl_ands

DTV experts are seriously questioning the methodology and conclusions in a

recent DTV Coverage Study by Centris:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0015/t.11299.html 

The study attempts to quantify the impact on viewers of the upcoming

Feb2009 shift to all DTV reception.....


According to a Centris's Press Release, they used www.antennaweb.org to calculate

DTV Coverage by entering zipcodes at increasing distances from broadcast towers:
http://www.centris.com/pages/viewnew...ID=34&SiteID=9 


Centris predicts fol. percent of current analog viewers will lose one or more

"top-five" network channels: Las Vegas (2.5%), Philadelphia (5%) & St. Louis (10%):
http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6531546.html 

Although FCC Coverage Maps estimate 65 mile DTV coverage, Centris claims

it will only be about 35 miles.


Centris SVP Barry Goodstadt also indicated they assumed the use of a

"small or medium-size omnidirectional antenna installed on their roof", rather

than an indoor set-top antennas which their survey results indicate is actually

used by 75-83 percent of viewers. [But hopefully not at the extreme ranges!!!!]


Unfortunately, the report itself is "proprietary"....


================================

Further muddying the waters, FCC Chairman Kevin Martin says about

5 percent of viewers may be missing one or more stations:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0015/t.11298.html 

Absolutely no explanation.....


But I could think of a few:

a. It'll take awhile for some stations to build to full power/antenna pattern.


b. Many long distance CH2-6 stations are moving to short range Hi-VHF or UHF.

[This will especially impact viewers using simple rabbit ears, without a UHF loop.]


c. Many (most?) current DTV viewers are using UHF-ONLY antennas and may

(or may not) need to upgrade their antenna system to also receive VHF.


===============================

TVTechnology's Dave Lung requested viewers email him if they receive

DTV beyond 35 miles:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0115/t.11319.html 


===============================

Many users have commented on how www.antennaweb.org failed to

list many if not all of their successfully received DTV stations.


Suggest you include an accuracy evaluation wrt www.antennaweb.org 

(and also www.tvfool.com ) prediction results in your email to Dave Lung.


PS: And post a copy to this thread.


----------



## holl_ands

LOCATION: 92563, few miles NE of French Valley Airport, Winchester, CA.

DISTANCE: 70 miles to Mt Wilson.

CONFIG: Attic, CM-4228, Spartan Preamp, 100-ft RG-6, 2-Way RF Splitter, Dish vip622.

COMMENTS: One VHF and two UHF "low-power" stations only 5 miles away.

RECEIVE: All L.A. DTV stations plus KVMD-DT and KVCR-DT if rotate antenna.

[KCOP-DT not reliably received...but that's THEIR problem....]

ACCURACY: antennaweb FAILED to list ANY DTV stations from Mt Wilson (L.A.).


* yellow - uhf KVMD-DT 23.1 IND TWENTYNINE PALMS CA 16° 34.6 23

* red - uhf KVCR-DT 24.1 PBS SAN BERNARDINO CA 325° 27.1 26

* blue - vhf KABC-DT 7 ABC LOS ANGELES CA Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 295° 69.8 7

* blue - vhf KCAL-DT 9 IND LOS ANGELES CA Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 295° 69.8 9

* blue - vhf KTTV-DT 11 FOX LOS ANGELES CA Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 295° 69.6 11

* blue - vhf KCOP-DT 13 MNT LOS ANGELES CA Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 295° 69.6 13


----------



## holl_ands

LOCATION: 92128, about 1 mile W of Post Office, San Diego, CA

DISTANCE: Mt Soledad (14 miles), Mt San Miguel (22 miles) & Tijuana (34 miles).

CONFIG: Attic, CM-4228, No Preamp, 50-ft RG-6, no RF Splitters, Sylvania 6900DTE.

COMMENTS: 60-ft hill in backyard plus 1200-ft Black Mtn blocks 2 DTV on Mt Soledad.

Hill also affects FOX, XETV-DT from Tijuana and lesser impact to 4 DTV from Mt San Miguel.

Big Pine Tree & several smaller trees towards Mt San Miguel.

MediaFlo 50 kW CH53 on Black Mtn (2 miles). Six low power stations 7 miles away.

RECEIVE: All four DTV stations on Mt San Miguel.

ACCURACY: antennaweb FAILED to list ANY DTV stations from Mt San Miguel.


* blue - vhf KGTV-DT 10 ABC SAN DIEGO CA Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 209° 14.3 10

* blue - vhf KFMB-DT 8 CBS SAN DIEGO CA Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 209° 14.4 8


===========================

If I increase antenna height from (actual) 16-ft to 60-ft, antennaweb

results finally approximate what I see using an exterior test antenna:


* yellow - uhf KSWB-DT 5.1 CW SAN DIEGO CA 145° 22.1 19

* yellow - uhf KNSD-DT 39.1 NBC SAN DIEGO CA 144° 22.2 40

* yellow - uhf KPBS-DT 15.1 PBS SAN DIEGO CA 144° 22.2 30

* lt green - uhf KUSI-DT 51.1 IND SAN DIEGO CA 144° 22.2 18

* red - vhf KGTV-DT 10 ABC SAN DIEGO CA Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 209° 14.3 10

* red - vhf KFMB-DT 8 CBS SAN DIEGO CA Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 209° 14.4 8


----------



## Falcon_77

Antennaweb lists only 3 current DTV stations that I can receive, if I use the actual height of 30':


* red - vhf KABC-DT 7 ABC LOS ANGELES CA Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 319° 51.8 7

* red - vhf KCAL-DT 9 IND LOS ANGELES CA Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 319° 51.8 9

* red - vhf KTTV-DT 11 FOX LOS ANGELES CA Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 320° 51.6 11

* red - vhf KCOP-DT 13 MNT LOS ANGELES CA Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 320° 51.6 13

* violet - uhf KCBS-DT 2.1 CBS LOS ANGELES CA 319° 52.3 60

* violet - uhf KOCE-DT 50.1 PBS HUNTINGTON BEACH CA 319° 51.8 48

* violet - uhf KDOC-DT 56.1 IND ANAHEIM CA 319° 51.8 32

* violet - uhf KSCI-DT 18 IND LONG BEACH CA Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 319° 50.8 18

* violet - uhf KRCA-DT 45 IND RIVERSIDE CA Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 319° 50.8 45

* violet - uhf KCBS-DT 43 CBS LOS ANGELES CA Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 319° 52.3 43


The VHF predictions for the post transition seem to be ok, but does antennaweb have a grudge against UHF?


I can receive every full power station from Mt. Wilson at 51 miles with 1-2 edge diffraction, with a CM4228. That is 22 stations, not to mention numerous sub-stations. I can also get all but 1 (KABC) if my 4228 is aimed 64 degrees off line, towards KVCR.


With a rabbit ear/loop combo on the first floor, I can receive about 90% of the stations.


I have a YA1713 waiting in the wings for VHF, but the 4228 will probably work for those as well.


----------



## jonnyozero3

Anyone noticed this yet? I didn't see it in any searches:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2008/02/prweb672763.htm 

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/02/17...e-ota-antenna/ 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Engadget.com* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Antennas Direct unveils ClearStream2 long-range OTA antenna
> 
> 
> Posted Feb 17th 2008 7:50AM by Darren Murph
> 
> 
> Just a few short months after Antennas Direct's president witnessed unprecedented sales of its OTA antennas, the firm is fleshing out its product line with the all new ClearStream series. The first device in said lineup will be the ClearStream2, which enables owners to pull in UHF / VHF signals some 55 miles away in a design that measures just 10- x 20-inches. Additionally, the company promises that "up to 98-percent of the available broadcast signal" will actually reach the incoming antenna cable compared to "just 10-percent" in most alternatives. Interestingly, we aren't told how much this unit will demand -- and we're left to imagine what it'll actually look like -- but availability is promised for next month, with mid-range and ultra long-range designs to follow shortly.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jonnyozero3* /forum/post/13136912
> 
> 
> Anyone noticed this yet?



Interesting. I'll be curious to see what the upcoming "ultra-long range" version is like. A healthy dose of skepticism is in order, though. Hard to re-invent the wheel afterall.


----------



## andy.s.lee

Sorta, but not really, related to the Centris debate, TV Fool has now released it's own analog shutdown analysis here .


Best regards,

Andy


----------



## w0en

Check out the lumenlab coathanger antenna thread. The thread is huge but 400-500 posts in they are starting to play with some loops with claimed amazing results. Just remember some of these guys put the the feedpoint on a 4 bay at the bottom cause it's easier....not too many rf engineers on the thread, but experimenters and homebrewers all. My kudos to them, they may have unearthed a design long ignored with some possibility.


----------



## nybbler

By a dual loop do you mean two vertical loops with the feedpoint in the center across the loops? I've seen them (and built one) for UHF but they've got a pretty narrow bandwidth. The VHF element is then another loop which goes around the outside of the reflector.


----------



## Burnasty

I live in McKinney Texas and according to antennaweb live 43 miles from the closest Tower. I recently built an 8 bay UHF antenna mounted in my attic. I have metal lining most of my roof except one corner. I placed the antenna there and am receiving remarkable reception. I am getting hd channels from Dallas and Fort Worth, in total 12, and some 35 analog channels (unfortunatly mostly spanish and bible channels). The antenna I used as a template was the db-8 from antennas direct which with shipping and tax would have cost around $150. I purchased all new materials and my antenna cost me about $45. I did put a 10 db amplified splitter 5 feet from the antenna at my cable hub because I am running over 100 ft. of cable and running to four rooms. All works flawlessly. I hope you all have the luck I have had.


----------



## jclemmojoe

If you're near Mechanicsville send me a personal message and I'll give you my phone number. I just replaced my combo VHF/UHF Radio Shack antenna with a 91 XG UHF. All I'm looking for is OTA HD reception. Sounds like the Radio Shack is what you need. I'd probably let it go for a case of beer!. It's like new!


Joe Clemmons


----------



## firemantom26

I am running stacked 4228"s on a cm 7775 amp now and want to replace it with a cm 7777 to be able to pick some vhf high channels. When I have it switch to combined, will uhf channels be as good as before using a cm 7775


----------



## mlmahon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *firemantom26* /forum/post/13186361
> 
> 
> I am running stacked 4228 on cm 7775 amp now and want to replace it with a cm 7777 to be able to pick some vhf high channels. When I have it switch to combined, will uhf channels be as good as before using a cm 7775



Yes.


----------



## firemantom26

mlmahon

I am happy to hear that when I have it switched to combined position on the 7777, that I would not loose any uhf signal. The 7775 performs so good and there is only a few that will be on vhf high when the switch is made in Feb 2009


----------



## ctmooregottapee

moved from prime metro area to the boonies and was looking for any detailed advice for the following tvfool plot; advanced options are very welcome


indy ch10 and 51 are not desired/required, and only one of the fox or cbs nets are needed


i was thinking a 4228 and 7777 aimed at the most difficult stations, ch18 & 22, then hoping enough of the stronger stations would get picked up.


if that doesn't work, would a channelmaster jointenna aimed at those two stations, combined with a 4228 aimed south work?


was also hoping the 4228 would pick up the high vhf ch9, but i'm willing to live without that vhf ch9 as it is pbs with 2 subchannels and 12mbps of HD which is just not worth much to me.


i can do a tower of some height, but would prefer to avoid it due to rough weather. two-story roof access or similar small tower is no problem.


i'm a little hesitant to go crazy as locals in such a small market are sorta crap quality wise and may stuff themselves with subchannels at some point. if i had a shot at chicago then i would def go all out, but some of these guys are not even 5.1 yet.


i noticed some .4db noise PHEMT preamps - compared to the 2.0db noise channel master 7777; is this something i should consider or are there other downsides to the lower noise spec preamps?


appreciate your time to reply, ct


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctmooregottapee* /forum/post/13213562
> 
> 
> I was thinking a 4228 and 7777 aimed at the most difficult stations, ch18 & 22, then hoping enough of the stronger stations would get picked up.



I'd start with an XG-91 or the 4228, the 7777 and a rotator. I'd put up a Y10-7-13 for channel 9, but mounted below then rotator, fixed at WILL. Next I'd verify what can actually be received. If you ever want to drop the rotator, the XG-91 has less windload than the 4228 and slightly more gain on channels 18 and 22. If you can get all the stations you want and wish to eliminate the rotator, an optimum setup would have 5 antennas and 3 Jointennas. (Channels 28, 41, and 48)


With three Jointennas, the loss will be a factor. The solution is to use a separate preamp on each antenna before the Jointennas, or try the GASFET preamp. In normal cases a GASFET noise figure is too low to be helpful, but if there are losses before the preamp, that generality is wrong. You won't need a preamp for WYZZ.


You will need to clear all trees to get WAND and WBUI. Pick the end of the house that is clear to those two stations. The other end of the house can be the location for a second stack of antennas. A tower will help until you clear the trees, then not as much as you might think.


----------



## PCTools

Wanted to inquire if anything would be gained by swapping out my NEW X91 and going to the Winegard 9032?


I have no problem pulling in stations at 70 miles on my 40" XBR TV, and having them in the high 80's and low 90's in signal strength. I can pull Detroit in the evening, which is over 150 miles in Digital.


You guys are probably saying, what else do you need? Well, I want more. Believe it or not, my system is ONLY 15 feet off the ground. This is because I have no tower, and laid off. (Cash flow).


Lucky for me, I am in the one of the highest points in Ohio. That is, 880 feet elevation. I live in farm country, and no big buildings between me and the transmitters.


Or maybe do some vertical stacking?


Your comments...
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/9...enna017dr4.jpg 

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4...enna004nk7.jpg


----------



## MAX HD

The XG91 is the better antenna.Never seen a tripod used on the ground.If you want more height put it on the peak of the roof with no more than 10 ft of masting.Or,use a gable mount on the end of the house for more total height.


A stacked array won't help with stations 150mi away,but the ones 70mi away might be more stable.


----------



## PCTools

Darn, I just ordered the Wingard 9032 for $29.99 + 18.99 shipping. I thought for sure this baby would do better than the XG91.


But, you guys are the pro's. Hmm.. No more than 10' above the eve. I was hoping to push her up a little more. Even decided to skip the rotor, as this would add more weight.


The Details:


House peak is 15 Ft.


Thought I would take take 3 pieces of 10' pipe and stack them. I would then be 15' above the eve bracket with NO rotor. Do you think I would be looking for a diaster?


Lastly, why do you feel the XG91 is better than the 9032?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/13230309
> 
> 
> The XG91 is the better antenna.Never seen a tripod used on the ground.If you want more height put it on the peak of the roof with no more than 10 ft of masting.Or,use a gable mount on the end of the house for more total height.
> 
> 
> A stacked array won't help with stations 150mi away,but the ones 70mi away might be more stable.


----------



## holl_ands

 http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


What Preamp are you using????

Do you have any FM or TV stations within 20 miles????

Suggest you post your digital and analog results from www.tvfool.com


----------



## PCTools

Doh, I just took a step back.







My local TV Installer swears by that darn 9032. So, what happens I end up buying junk! Too late for me to cancel the order. Atleast, I got a good deal on it. $29.99.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13230895
> 
> 
> Doh, I just took a step back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My local TV Installer swears by that darn 9032. So, what happens I end up buying junk! Too late for me to cancel the order. Atleast, I got a good deal on it. $29.99.



Why do you call it junk?


If you look at the raw data in the link Holl_ands posted before you, the 9032 looks inferior to the XG91. Look a little closer and you'll see that the XG91's peak gain is for a channel in the mid-60's. The 9032 is only down ~2 dB over channels 15-52 (?) that we'll retain after 2/09. The 9032 is a lighter, simplier, cheaper design.


Perhaps your installer swears by it because his customers get good picture quality for a reasonable price and he gets fewer call-backs for wind or weather?


In your case, for $30, I'd be tempted to try them both ... can you see a signal difference? One neat thing about ATSC tuners is they all have signal strength meters!


HAve fun,

Frank


PS Also remember (as I failed to in my initial look) that Holl_ands link is to antenna *simulations*, not empirical data as I implied. I would not be surprised if there were a couple dB difference between antenna models and actual behavior across the channel band, but the relative curve shapes and heights are likely still valid.


----------



## Mister B

I choose the Winegard 9032 here in West Texas as I was concerned by several comments read on this forum about the wind tolerance of the XG91. I am very satisfied with the results as I am pulling in a digital channel 23 from 80 miles away through a mountain pass.


----------



## donnyjaguar

FWIW, I use a Delhi CYD1470 and it looks to be damn near identical to the Winegard 9032. If its a hunk o' junk that wouldn't explain why I get reception day and night of stations over 100 miles away.







I haven't owned it long enough to proclaim it'll last a lifetime, but it looks to be well built and there are certainly lots of them around my location. YMMV.


----------



## Junglerock

If anyone is interested it appears the Winegard HD 7698P is now available: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=HD7698P At 14' long and 17lbs.


----------



## bozey45

Just ordered a 91-XG from Solid Signal so I'll see how it performs here in west central Florida at about 40 ft. up. Should arrive next week I guess. Next decision is one for VHF; Am into DX so will need one to cover 2-13.


----------



## PCTools

Well, let me start-over. The 9032 is NOT a piece of junk. Actually, it is one of the native antennas that is made in the USA and not imported! You can immediately tell the difference in quality and craftsmanship.


Now, since my two of my digital channels Ch. 11 and 13 (Toledo), will no longer broadcast their signals in the UHF Band, I will need to purchase a 7-13 antenna. (Prior to Feb. 2009)


The best one I have found is the Winegard YA-1713. A good gain antenna that is light weight.

http://winegard.com/offair/pdf/Ya-1713.pdf 


Comments?


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13241098
> 
> 
> Well, let me start-over. The 9032 is NOT a piece of junk. Actually, it is one of the native antennas that is made in the USA and not imported! You can immediately tell the difference in quality and craftsmanship.
> 
> 
> Now, since my two of my digital channels Ch. 11 and 13 (Toledo), will no longer broadcast their signals in the UHF Band, I will need to purchase a 7-13 antenna. (Prior to Feb. 2009)
> 
> 
> The best one I have found is the Winegard YA-1713. A good gain antenna that is light weight.
> 
> http://winegard.com/offair/pdf/Ya-1713.pdf
> 
> 
> Comments?



The 9032 is certainly not junk.I've compared it to XG-type on the same mast and the overall performance level across the band was not as good.As a Dxer,I look for best FB,directivity and good frequency response on EVERY channel.


Re:if you want the largest highbander available,I have a few left.Check this thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1000398


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Junglerock* /forum/post/13235810
> 
> 
> If anyone is interested it appears the Winegard HD 7698P is now available: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=HD7698P At 14' long and 17lbs.



I might try one in this neighborhood with two markets at 55mi and two at 70mi.Kinda salty though at a dollar an inch!


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13230557
> 
> 
> 
> But, you guys are the pro's. Hmm.. No more than 10' above the eve. I was hoping to push her up a little more. Even decided to skip the rotor, as this would add more weight.
> 
> 
> The Details:
> 
> 
> House peak is 15 Ft.
> 
> 
> Thought I would take take 3 pieces of 10' pipe and stack them. I would then be 15' above the eve bracket with NO rotor. Do you think I would be looking for a diaster?



You can go 15ft above the peak with the right mast construction,but your hip pocket engineering better be good.Hint..you'll need to use two braces 5ft up from the peak and run them back at an angle and attach them about 2-3 rafters back from the gable end of the roof,lagged into the rafters well.pm me for more complete details if you want to pursue it.


----------



## PCTools

I purchased the VIP-307 last year. It is a monster, and a heck of a performer.


But nowadays, I would focus on a 7-13 antenna. I have no use for the 2 -6 channels. I am in process of finding the best place to buy the Winegard YA-1713. So far $50 delivered.


I was going to purchase some 10" masp pipe and was floored at the price. Do you feel it is worth the exrta money to get the 1.66" vs the 1.5" stuff? Don't even think about that cheapo 1.25" Lowes stuff.


I am going to do a eve mount with the 91XG and YA-1713. About 14 feet over the peak.


----------



## girdnerg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Junglerock* /forum/post/13235810
> 
> 
> If anyone is interested it appears the Winegard HD 7698P is now available: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=HD7698P At 14' long and 17lbs.



I noticed that there were several in this series. Is anyone using one in the series, and if so, can you give some feedback?


I ask because I'll have 2 channels going back to VHF in 2009.


Thanks,

Rob


----------



## Dru the Fu

*Background*: Currently a D*tv customer. My commitment will be coming up soon and am looking to get rid of my subscription. I've realized that the majority of TV I watch is on local stations and/or DVD. Having a DVR/Tivo is not an issue as I am OK with buying a stand-alone HD Tivo unit and pay that subscription price. My TV's have built in tuners (my main TV has ATSC and QAM). I live in Vacaville, CA (Zip = 95688), which is at about the halfway point between Sacramento and San Francisco. My home is single story with a slate tile roof, with no large trees, no tall buildings, and a small airport a few miles away.

*Looking For*: I want to get an antenna that is fully compatable for the digital conversion, can receive HD, and can be fed to multiple TV's (via a switch I assume). Having the antenna located/mounted in the attic would be ideal, but I am not opposed to having it outside as long as it's not a beast (D*tv 5-LNB dish size is about as large as I'd like to go), and if it were to be outside, having it piggyback or mount on top of my existing dish would be ideal.


Please, if it's not too much to ask, point me in the direction of a worthy antenna (and line equipment such as amp, switch, etc if needed). I looked into antennaweb.com for a starting point and am lost and confused with the 'results' of my search. If I were to receive on Sacramento stations I can live with that, and receiving San Francisco Bay Area stations would be a Christmas bonus.


----------



## girdnerg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/13246954
> 
> 
> the antennas are basically the 2-69 winegard platinum antennas with elements cut for ch 7-69.
> 
> 
> the platinum antennas are great antennas that outperform the other mfg antennas in the same size ranges. They also hold up better under weather, ice, wet snow, wind because of design differences.
> 
> 
> If you live in the boonies, would tend to go with separates for uhf and vhf instead of the large combos...hd7698p for example. the cm4228 and 91 xg would perform better on uhf although the large platinums do decent stuff on vhf



I'm currently using this Philips model and a CM7777. In your opinion (or anyone else), how would you compare it to the new Winegard HD 7698P?


Appreciate it,

Rob


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13246538
> 
> 
> I was going to purchase some 10" mast pipe and was floored at the price. Do you feel it is worth the exrta money to get the 1.66" vs the 1.5" stuff? Don't even think about that cheapo 1.25" Lowes stuff.



It really depends on the yield strength of the pipe. Typical water pipe has a yield strength of about 30,000 psi. Structural tubing can be in the 60,000 psi range. (But not always) 1.66" implies a 1 1/4" pipe size and 1.5" implies the actual OD of real tubing. Neither spec refers to the alloy of the material. Good TV mast has a higher yield strength than pipe.


If you want to try water pipe, look for schedule 80. It has a thicker wall than the typical schedule 40.


----------



## bozey45

That is the wedge design similar to a Winegard out years ago that I used to have and posted about on one of the forums last week. The info has nothing about the gain on various channels; how does it perform for you? I don't see much about Phillips antennas on these forums. Everyone is into Antennas Direct, Winegard and Wade-Delhi it looks like. Just curious how the actual performance is with that Phillips.


----------



## bozey45

I see the other Rick answered my gain questions for the Phillips wedge. Thanks, guess nothing comes close to the Wade for gain.


----------



## PCTools

Well, I did some comparisons with the Field Strength Meter tonight on these two antennas.


Long story short, the 9032 could not lock in a couple digital signals, whereas the 91XG could. That impressed me!


Both antennas were setup in near identical conditions. I will have to say, the $40 spent on the PR-9032 was a learning experience. I proofed it for myself that the 91XG is the choice antenna.


----------



## Carnivore

Hey guys, I'm trying to pick up stations in every direction. Got a rooftop-mounted CM-4221 that almost does the job but seems just a little too directional, I can't find a sweet spot where it gets everything. Oddly enough with the 4221 pointed southeast it's pulling in my most distant station to the north but missing some closer ones in other directions.


I'm thinking about trying a non-amplified Winegard MS-1000 omnidirectional antenna, but it would probably be non-returnable so I'd be stuck with it if it doesn't work.


Any other suggestions? Is there something cheap I could combine with the 4221 to boost the off-axis performance? Most of these stations aren't too far and I don't want to go with an amp or a rotor. I'm up high on the NJ Palisades cliffs across from NYC.


Here are the towers I need:

WNBC-DT NEW YORK, NY 186° 4.5M, CH 28

WNYE-DT NEW YORK, NY 188° 9.4M, CH 24

WABC-DT NEW YORK, NY 190° 4.7M, CH 45

WPXN-DT NEW YORK, NY 190° 5.3M, CH 30

WPIX-DT NEW YORK, NY 190° 5.3M, CH 33

WCBS-DT NEW YORK, NY 190° 5.3M, CH 33 (post-transition)

WWOR-DT SECAUCUS, NJ 190° 5.3M, CH 38

WNYW-DT NEW YORK, NY 190° 5.3M, CH 44

WCBS-DT NEW YORK, NY 190° 5.3M, CH 56

WNET-DT NEW YORK, NY 190° 5.3M, CH 61

WABC-DT NEW YORK, NY 201° 7.9M, CH 7 (post transition)

WPIX-DT NEW YORK, NY 201° 7.9M, CH 11 (post-transition)

WNET-DT NEW YORK, NY 201° 7.9M, CH 13 (post-transition)

WPXN-DT NEW YORK, NY 201° 7.9M, CH 31 (post-transition)

WNJN-DT MONTCLAIR, NJ 297° 11.3M, CH 51

WLIW-DT GDN CITY, NY 108° 28.3M, CH 22

WRNN-DT KINGSTON, NY 15° 45.9M, CH 48 (good digital signal here despite distance)


----------



## holl_ands

You can try removing the reflector screen on the CM-4221 so it has response both N and S.


That will probably do the job...but there are also some NON-AMPLIFIED quasi-dipole type

antennas you can try such as:
http://www.beachaudio.com/Winegard/G...CID=C12585x003 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=ANC3010 

The CM-3010 is unamplified (CM-3038 is optional amplifier module):
http://www.pctinternational.com/chan...anual_3010.pdf 


However, they have much less gain than CM-4221, even w/o rear screen.


----------



## fbov

Another factor could be altitude/elevation - where's it pointed relative to the horizon. The CM-4221 has a tighter vertical spread than horizontal: you're down 10 dB at 25 degrees off axis vertically but over 45 degrees horzontally.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4221.html 


Standing at the antenna, the reception aperture is an elipse nearly twice as wide as it is high. Your stations are close together; left-right shouldn't be your problem unless you're aimed high and so only using the bottom part of the elipse, not the major axis.


Most of us are in valleys and pointing up. You're on a hilltop, maybe you'll see improvement pointing down? This won't blend well with Holl_ands idea to remove the screen, unless your back side transmitters need you to aim up.


Have fun,

Frank


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13255160
> 
> 
> Another factor could be altitude/elevation - where's it pointed relative to the horizon. The CM-4221 has a tighter vertical spread than horizontal: you're down 10 dB at 25 degrees off axis vertically but over 45 degrees horzontally.
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4221.html
> 
> 
> Standing at the antenna, the reception aperture is an elipse nearly twice as wide as it is high. Your stations are close together; left-right shouldn't be your problem unless you're aimed high and so only using the bottom part of the elipse, not the major axis.
> 
> 
> Most of us are in valleys and pointing up. You're on a hilltop, maybe you'll see improvement pointing down? This won't blend well with Holl_ands idea to remove the screen, unless your back side transmitters need you to aim up.
> 
> 
> Have fun,
> 
> Frank



Even in L.A., with 5000-ft Mt Wilson, antenna elevation is not required.

Try some simple geometry calculations.....


PS: Palisades Cliff, NY is about 300-ft and WNBC-DT antenna is about 1000-ft,

which is looking UP...with distant stations more towards (4/3 Earth) horizon...


----------



## girdnerg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/13249979
> 
> 
> phillips is a 51 element antenna
> 
> 
> the hd 7698p a 71 element antenna
> 
> 
> the hd 7698p is a deep fringe antenna
> 
> 
> the phillips red/blue zone antenna.
> 
> 
> the hd 7698p will give you much more gain on uhf
> 
> 
> and vhf hi will be in the 8-10 range for phillips
> 
> 
> 10+ for the winegard.
> 
> 
> the winegard is much better constructed



Thanks Rick. I appreciate the response.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bozey45* /forum/post/13250072
> 
> 
> That is the wedge design similar to a Winegard out years ago that I used to have and posted about on one of the forums last week. The info has nothing about the gain on various channels; how does it perform for you? I don't see much about Phillips antennas on these forums. Everyone is into Antennas Direct, Winegard and Wade-Delhi it looks like. Just curious how the actual performance is with that Phillips.



If you were asking about the philips I'm using. It's so-so. It pulls in all my stations with a strength of 90+. However, I live in a pretty tricky spot. I'm about 40 miles away from the antenna farm, no LOS, and shooting thru a row of trees. Multi-path on UHF is pretty good, with only a picture pixilation here and there. It doesn't handle it as well on VHF. At least twice during a 1 hour show, I'll get a 2-3 second drop-out. ABC is one of my digital channel on VHF, and it's ticking off the wife, since it always happens when something important is happening (she missed a big clue on Lost last night







).


Anyway, I went with the philips because it was available locally, and given my situation, that was important at the time. Now I'm just looking for a replacement for when I get around to it. I'd prefer to stay with a combo since it would require a major pole-guy wire rework to get the spacing for a dual setup, but it's not out of the question.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13255311
> 
> 
> Even in L.A., with 5000-ft Mt Wilson, antenna elevation is not required.
> 
> Try some simple geometry calculations.....
> 
> 
> PS: Palisades Cliff, NY is about 300-ft and WNBC-DT antenna is about 1000-ft,
> 
> which is looking UP...with distant stations more towards (4/3 Earth) horizon...



Agreed, 1000 ft over 5 miles is 2 degrees, but you never know what his local conditions might be. He might be in a shadow, or his tuner may not deal well with multipath issues - it sounds like he's ripe for them


I'm in a shallow valley, 7 miles from Roch NY antennas, using a home-built Yagi (pic attached) in a first-story attic aiming into a forest. From Carnivore's post, it sounds like I get better reception than his bigger, commercial, roof-mounted antenna on a cliff 5 miles from the towers. That seems unexpected, don't you think?


My tuner's a Sony 34XBR970, but I'm grabbing a CECB as soon as the coupons are out to see if 6th gen ATSC tuners do better, but I'll also be needing a different antenna, post transition. This one's centered on 675 MHz for channels 16 to 59. In a year, I'll need to cover channels 10 to 45 ...


I'm considering a 4221, but may need a 4228 for its VHF coverage. Thus discussions like this are helpful.


Have fun,

Frank


----------



## holl_ands

Biggest problem is he's five miles North of Empire State Bldg, and not

all NYC stations are even on the ESB...and then there are all those

buildings his signal is shooting through/above, each contributing multipath clutter....


Direct path is constructively/destructively interferring with "ground/building" bounce path.

FYI: The Televes DAT-75 was specifically designed to suppress the bounce path....


And he didn't say which stations work and which do not....insuff. data....

Nor whether he has tried different antenna locations and heights....


BTW: www.tvfool.com will no doubt yield a much more complete list....


----------



## Carnivore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13259491
> 
> 
> Biggest problem is he's five miles North of Empire State Bldg, and not
> 
> all NYC stations are even on the ESB...and then there are all those
> 
> buildings his signal is shooting through/above, each contributing multipath clutter....



The immediate area is pretty residential, mostly houses with a few multi-storey apt buildings ranging from several blocks to a couple miles away, but none standing right in the signal paths. As I rotate that 4221 I do see multipath come and go on the analog channels.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13259491
> 
> 
> And he didn't say which stations work and which do not....insuff. data....
> 
> Nor whether he has tried different antenna locations and heights....



The CM-4221 is on my rooftop atop a 5-ft mast in tripod mount. It's a 2-storey home plus an attic just like most of the surrounding homes. I can get easily get all of the specified channels as long as the antenna is aimed at them. In fact I can even get them all with an indoor Silver Sensor as long as I aim it at them. I just can't quite seem to get them all at the same time.


The closest I've gotten so far is with the CM-4221 aimed about halfway between the Empire State Building at 190° and WLIW at 108°. In this position my Samsung TV tuner gets every digital channel including the ones way behind it at 15° and 297°, but I get some occasional breakup on WLIW. When I connect that same antenna lead to my DirecTV HR20-100, I don't receive WLIW at 108° or WNJN at 297° at all, and WWOR has some breakup. This makes me think the HR20 is not handling multipath as well as my TV tuner.


If I rotate that CM-4221 any farther away from 190° I lose WNET which seems to put a much weaker signal into my location than any of the other stations on the ESB.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13259491
> 
> 
> BTW: www.tvfool.com will no doubt yield a much more complete list....




I ommitted the channels I don't care about in my OP but here's the TVfool result, with the red lines being the stations I need:


----------



## fbov

Carnivore,

You've got similar results with antennas of widely varying gain, as long as you can adjust the position? This is sounding more like a tuner issue, or specifically its ability to deal with a strong-but-complex signal field.


I'm also following the converter box thread, and some people have reported excellent performance with the 6th gen LG ATSC chip. It is reportedly much better at multipath, and may be a more-effective option than antenna changes. Coupon-eligible boxes won't have digital outputs or HD, but it's a cheap way to test the hypothesis.


Have fun,

Frank


----------



## holl_ands

Nearby apt buildings can contribute to the multipath coming via NYC bounce path.


Since multipath (vice signal strength) appears to be your main problem...and presuming you

aren't going to rush out and get a new HDTV, you need a better antenna strategy.


WLIW-DT is at about 90-degree offset from NYC stations....which is nearly impossible

to cover from any reasonable gain antenna unless you either use a rotator...or dual antennas.


You could use another antenna pointed to WLIW-DT and use either an RF switch

or an RF combiner. My first choice would be a CM-4228, which has some

hi-VHF gain for Post2009. [CM-4228 for NYC and CM-4221 for WLIW-DT.]


A simple RF combiner can be tricky because the antenna pointed towards NYC will also

pick up all of WLIW-DT's multipath energy on CH22, thereby possibly degrading the desired

signal from the antenna pointed towards WLIW-DT.

[The WLIW-DT antenna also picks up multipath for all the NYC stations.]


You might get lucky and it will work without fussing with it....or you might

need to insert some attenuation (perhaps 6 dB?) on the NYC port.


A JoinTenna ordered for CH22 would be the best approach for combining two antennas,

although CH20-24 could be degraded...do you care???


----------



## fbov

I did a little testing today that might be of interest. I'm in a close-but-weak-signal location, per TVFool.com, and have tried a couple antennas. I'm amazed at the degree of signal variation I get, as well as the quality of the simple clip-on bow tie that got me interested in antennas in the first place.


I'm in the Rochester, NY DMA, 6.9 miles from 5 co-located stations, but I still have a weak signal (-70 to -77.5 dBm), probably due to all 2-edge diffraction and a LOS height of 150-175 ft. TVFool chart attached.


Comparisons were done in the center of 15x20 family room aiming through a 3-pane sliding glass door (~1x1.5m panes), aluminum frame, into Al-screened in porch. Beyond the porch is a few hundred feet of forest, a creek, then an open field for ~1000 ft. No buildings in sight, just trees and hills.


I got a Sony 34XBR970 tuner in fall, 2006, and quickly found simple UHF antennas could give an excellent picture, albeit with dropouts (I was new to digital.). I made a small Yagi antenna based on internet directions and local channel frequencies and measured it's performance using the TV's diagnostic screen. Since I wanted OTA for the NFL, I started tracking signal strengths whiler I watched (see attached timeline, chart 1). Not surprisingly, weak stations varied widely over time, and you can clearly see that two stations increased radiated power between seasons. But WHEC, 10.1 real 58 and lowest predicted signal strength, remained inconsistent. WHEC is also one of two stations converting their analog VHF transmitters to digital next year, so I'll have need of VHF 10 and 13.


Reading here about various DTV issues, I decided to upgrade my antenna. I'd tried combining signals from two UHF loops without success, and Radio Shack no longer carried their little 2-bay bowtie; this time I made a 4-bay bowtie, a clone of the CM-4221.


Chart 2 in the timeline shows the results with this new antenna, compared with my Yagi. All the data's on sheet 1. I'd planned to try the 4-bay with/without reflector, front and back, but when I saw channel 8.1 signal rise when I put the Yagi backwards next to the TV, I did front/back with it, too. I'd done azimuth sensitivity when I made it, but some stations came in better backwards than forwards!


Regardless, the *worst* results with the 4-bay are better than the _best_ with the Yagi.


I honestly considered returning what I bought to make the reflector. The naked 4-bay was giving me 80/100 signal on all stations; the Yagi couldn't give me a lock on them all only 10 minutes earlier! I was putting the 4-bay in exactly the same spot I'd tested the Yagi, mounted on a stand so heights were similar. When I noticed that normally-strongest 31.1 was "only" 90, I tried optimizing the naked 4-bay.


This was a revelation. I'd been testing angular sensitivity, but not position. Moving as little as 6 inches perpendicular to the transmitters made a big difference! The optimum for the 4-bay was rotated ~30 degrees North, tilted back a little and shifted to the "right" spot. Stations all varied a couple points, but it raised the average from 90.6 to 94.2 on the TV's meter.


I mounted the reflector and saw a marked change in directionality. More forward gain (93.2 avg. on the meter) and less rear gain - no surprise. The added weight made it hard to keep the antenna vertical, so it may have taken on some of the upward tilt that was beneficial pre-reflector; when optimized I only got to 95.6 avg.


The best part is that I'm doing just as well from the attic; the antenna's long-term home, and analog reception on channels 10 and 13 is strong and ghost-free. I may not need a 4228 ...


Conclusions

Location matters in 2-edge (diffracted) reception. hdtvprimer has some great stuff on why. When the CECB coupons come out, I'll see how the tuner affects my reception (with the Yagi, of course).
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html 


Bowtie antennas are no slouches. They're awfully simple, and the simple expedient of ganging 4 of them in a series/parallel arrangement means there are no impedence issues with a 4:1 balun.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html 


Reflector bowtie antennas are flexible. You can have high gain and directional focus with the reflector, or the twin lobes of the classic, bi-directional dipole without. (No, I didn't test for nulls at 90 degrees.)


You can make a functional antenna yourself. You will *not* save money and could get less performance than a commercial unit, but it may be fun ...


Antennas are cheap; get more than you need.


Have fun,

Frank


----------



## fbov

And since the attachments failed to appear ...
 

 

Antenna Timeline.zip 9.6201171875k . file


----------



## skjardel

Would appreciate some help and guidance. I currently have a Terk TV32 antenna mounted outside approx 10' off the ground and receive all of my DT stations(listed below) out of Philadelphia without any problems. My concern is as outlined below two of the stations will move to VHF next Feb and one of them will move to low band VHF. At the moment I can receive these VHF stations reasonably well on my TV's analog tuner but not sure how they will look when they switch to digital. Will my current antenna be adequate when the change occurs or will I need a VHF antenna - and if I do I prefer not to mount a large antenna so what would be the best option - something like AntennaCraft HDX1000?



My zipcode is 08020


DTV Call Compass Compass

Antenna Sign Channel Heading Miles Freq Heading Miles Freq


* yellow uhf KYW-DT 3.1 9° 16.8 26

* yellow uhf WPVI-DT 6.1 9° 16.8 64

* yellow vhf WPVI-DT 6.1 2-17-2009 (post-transition) 9° 16.8 6

* red uhf WHYY-DT 12.1 10° 16.7 50

* yellow vhf WHYY-DT 12.1 2-17-2009 (post-transition) 10° 16.7 12

* red uhf WUVP-DT 29.1 2-17-2009 (post-transition) 10° 16.7 29

* red uhf WCAU-DT 10.1 10° 16.7 67


----------



## holl_ands

"don't worry, be happy"...

You're only 16.7 bloddy miles away....


FCC is supposed to allocate DTV power so stations have same coverage area.


So general rule is if you can receive the analog channel, it'll be okay when digital

takes over the old assignment. Although it may take awhile for them to

build up to full power and relocate antenna to top of mast...


----------



## AntAltMike

From sixteen miles away, skjardel might as well go with a Winegard 7010, which is half the size of a 7082, costs half as much and is less likely to blow over in the wind. Cripes, from 16 miles, he might have a chance with a Stealth or a Sensar or a trashcan lid.


----------



## holl_ands

And musn't overlook the coat hanger....it's a classic...









Kerry Cozad measured a "4-leaf-clover" antenna pattern:
https://secure.connect.pbs.org/confe...ns/TC05_43.htm 


[Although I might try reworking the feed to improve the VSWR.....]


----------



## Carnivore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13268067
> 
> 
> WLIW-DT is at about 90-degree offset from NYC stations....which is nearly impossible to cover from any reasonable gain antenna unless you either use a rotator...or dual antennas.



I tried removing the screen from the CM-4221 today, as per a previous suggestion. No luck getting the 90-degree offset stations no matter how I positioned it though.


Next I tried Radio Shack's 15-1634 amplified omnidirectional antenna, which appears to be a rebadged Antennacraft 5MS921. It actually worked better than I expected, but not good enough, so it's going back.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13268067
> 
> 
> You could use another antenna pointed to WLIW-DT and use either an RF switch or an RF combiner. My first choice would be a CM-4228, which has some hi-VHF gain for Post2009. [CM-4228 for NYC and CM-4221 for WLIW-DT.]



I'm not sure I need to go that big. The CM-4221 actually does a good job pulling in the current analog hi-VHF stations when aimed at NYC so I shouldn't need more than that for post-2009 hi-VHF. I'd like to keep the size and weight down and avoid having to add a taller mast, so I'm thinking of trying one of two things now:


1. Keep the CM-4221 aimed south at NYC for UHF/hi-VHF, and add a smaller CM-4220 or DB2 aimed east for WLIW-DT.


Or...


2. Aim the CM-4221 at WLIW-DT for more gain than above, and add something like the Antennacraft HBU22 aimed at NYC for a tighter UHF beamwidth and better hi-VHF performance.


The potential problem with #2 is I'd still like to get WRNN-DT to my north (their cool Funimation anime subchannel isn't carried by DirecTV). I know from experience the CM-4221 picks up that channel from the rear when aimed south at NYC, even with the screen on, but I don't know if the HBU22 would have too much rear rejection to do the same.


I also don't want to forget WNJN-DT to the west...that one is pretty strong here and has been fairly easy to pull in way off-axis but again I'm not sure how much adding the narrower HBU22 might complicate that.


So basically I'm planning to point two antennas south and east and hope together they still provide enough pickup to the north and west to get those other channels, which up til now have not been the biggest problems.


As for an RF combiner and/or JoinTenna I'll just experiment starting with the cheapest.


Any thoughts on the above scenarios?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Carnivore* /forum/post/13277487
> 
> 
> The CM-4221 actually does a good job pulling in the current analog hi-VHF stations when aimed at NYC so I shouldn't need more than that for post-2009 hi-VHF. I'd like to keep the size and weight down and avoid having to add a taller mast, so I'm thinking of trying one of two things now:



I predict that your VHF reception assumption for the 4221 will be faulty.


WABC is moving back to channel 7. The 4221 has -15 db gain on channel 7. The 4221 works better on the higher VHF channels, so it has a reputation as a VHF performer. That reputation has not been true in cities with a DTV station on channel 7. (Like Albany, NY)


The gain data for channel 7 comes from the last graph on this web page:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## Carnivore

I've seen that chart but I'm just 5 miles from the VHF transmitters and the current analog 7 comes in crystal clear with that CH-4221, so I can't see how it would become a problem when that frequency goes digital.


I'm leaning towards option 1 posted above . If that's the case then I'll just need to choose whether to add a CM-4220 or a DB2. Any thoughts as to which would work better for my needs, or is there not much difference between them? It looks like the DB2 might have a little more reception from behind, is that correct?


----------



## garyhalstead




In my attic I have an old combination VHF/UHF style antenna. Its one of those where the VHF part looks like many airplane wings lined up several inches apart, and the UHF is a small part of the tail. Its worked well for me pulling in VHF all these years and the UHF is now pulling in a few HD OTA stations.


I want to mount a larger better UHF antenna next to this one but reading in these forums it sounds like to UHF antennas mounted side by side (pointed in the same direction) may cause a conflict.


What if I removed the UHF portion of the old antenna and then used a splitter to combine the old VHF and new UHF together and fed that into an amp. before the signal reached the end point. I still have several analog TVs and VCRs that need the VHF antenna.


Anyone see a problem with this or something different I should consider?


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/13278742
> 
> 
> I predict that your VHF reception assumption for the 4221 will be faulty.
> 
> 
> WABC is moving back to channel 7. The 4221 has -15 db gain on channel 7. The 4221 works better on the higher VHF channels, so it has a reputation as a VHF performer. That reputation has not been true in cities with a DTV station on channel 7. (Like Albany, NY)
> 
> 
> The gain data for channel 7 comes from the last graph on this web page:
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html



In addition, WABC's transmitter power on channel 7, post transition, falls from 123 kW analog to 3.19 kW digital. Signal at the antenna will be much lower. Where I live, TVFool predicts the digital transition will drop VHF signal strength at the antenna by about 18 dB.


My conclusion is that a strong signal from today's analog stations may not be a good predictor of post-transition reception. Some aspects of image quality apply (ghosting), but a higher VHF gain may be required than you have today.


HAve fun,

Frank


----------



## tyromark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *garyhalstead* /forum/post/13281162
> 
> 
> In my attic I have an old combination VHF/UHF style antenna. Its one of those where the VHF part looks like many airplane wings lined up several inches apart, and the UHF is a small part of the tail. Its worked well for me pulling in VHF all these years and the UHF is now pulling in a few HD OTA stations.
> 
> 
> I want to mount a larger better UHF antenna next to this one but reading in these forums it sounds like to UHF antennas mounted side by side (pointed in the same direction) may cause a conflict.
> 
> 
> What if I removed the UHF portion of the old antenna and then used a splitter to combine the old VHF and new UHF together and fed that into an amp. before the signal reached the end point. I still have several analog TVs and VCRs that need the VHF antenna.
> 
> 
> Anyone see a problem with this or something different I should consider?



Use a Channel Master 0549 VHF/UHF combiner to join the UHF antenna you're adding to the current VHF one; a splitter won't do. Someone else could tell you if the preamp is a good idea for your proposal or not. You do want to keep several feet of space between the two antennas. I tried out the CM0549combiner with a combo antenna and analog TV just to see if it filtered out the UHF frequencies from the combo antenna, and it worked great. I was impressed. When you say the "tail" of the "airplane" is its UHF section, are you sure this is pointed in the right direction?


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Carnivore* /forum/post/13281080
> 
> 
> I've seen that chart but I'm just 5 miles from the VHF transmitters and the current analog 7 comes in crystal clear with that CH-4221, so I can't see how it would become a problem when that frequency goes digital.
> 
> 
> I'm leaning towards option 1 posted above . If that's the case then I'll just need to choose whether to add a CM-4220 or a DB2. Any thoughts as to which would work better for my needs, or is there not much difference between them? It looks like the DB2 might have a little more reception from behind, is that correct?



You'll see the issue with the CM-4221's gain at channel 7 by comparing "signal Rx" for today's analog 7 with post-transition digital 7 on TVFool.


It seems to me that your option 1 points a low gain antenna at a distant station. It might be logical to do the opposite; get as much locally as you can with a 2-bay, and use the 4-bay for WLIW. For course, a 2-bay will be even worse than the CM-4221 for VHF ...


The neatest idea is Holl_ands' second antenna connected by a JoinTenna. I'd substitute a channel-specific, high-gain Yagi for the CM-4228; it's smaller and should add less unwanted signals to the line.


HAve fun,

Frank


----------



## garyhalstead

Should I take the UHF part off of the old antenna?


----------



## Wireman134




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *garyhalstead* /forum/post/13283077
> 
> 
> Should I take the UHF part off of the old antenna?



No need to cut that antenna up, just get a UVSJ (GOOGLE it) EBAY has it. This little combiner blocks UHF on the VHF side allowing just the VHF to pass and vice -versa with the UHF side. see here; http://www.picomacom.com/products/di...xtSearch=PMC25


----------



## mdodge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13276476
> 
> 
> And musn't overlook the coat hanger....it's a classic...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Although I might try reworking the feed to improve the VSWR.....]



Yup, it appears the dielectric constant of the paint (assuming the hanger is the more expensive painted type) at the antenna feed point leaves a bit to be desired. Might want to untwist it a bit to give it some air.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13282570
> 
> 
> In addition, WABC's transmitter power on channel 7, post transition, falls from 123 kW analog to 3.19 kW digital. Signal at the antenna will be much lower. Where I live, TVFool predicts the digital transition will drop VHF signal strength at the antenna by about 18 dB.
> 
> 
> My conclusion is that a strong signal from today's analog stations may not be a good predictor of post-transition reception. Some aspects of image quality apply (ghosting), but a higher VHF gain may be required than you have today.
> 
> 
> HAve fun,
> 
> Frank



You can't simply look at the lower power assignments for digital.


Analog is always measured with a PEAK reading meter, whereas digital is measured

with an AVERAGE reading meter.

You have to reduce analog power (e.g. 123 kW) by 7-8 dB (factor of about 6)

to find average power (20 kW).

Digital also operates with a much smaller Signal-To-Noise ratio (about 15 dB)

than analog, which permits an even lower digital power level.

And finally, digital is more tolerant to co-channel and adjacent channel interference.


These factors are taken into account in assigning digital power so that the

coverage areas remain the SAME.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mdodge* /forum/post/13283324
> 
> 
> Yup, it appears the dielectric constant of the paint (assuming the hanger is the more expensive painted type) at the antenna feed point leaves a bit to be desired. Might want to untwist it a bit to give it some air.



I was thinking of untwisting so that it connects to a balun looking like a UHF loop

antenna (albeit somewhat out of round) and put two capacitors in series

with loop so that it looks more like an "inverted-L" whip (vice a short) at VHF freqs.

[One capacitor on one of top "corners", the second at the bottom,

where short leg reconnects to balun....disconnects at VHF freqs.]


----------



## Carnivore




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13282949
> 
> 
> The neatest idea is Holl_ands' second antenna connected by a JoinTenna. I'd substitute a channel-specific, high-gain Yagi for the CM-4228; it's smaller and should add less unwanted signals to the line.



Interesting angle. Where can I find one of those?


----------



## fbov

I just posted some antenna construction details on the UHF antenna construction thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post13285135


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/13284943
> 
> 
> Keep in mind that the jointenna blocks all frequencies but the one it is tuned for....1 jointenna per antenna
> 
> 
> available here. special tuned with about a 3 week lead time
> 
> http://www.warrenelectronics.com/ant...Jointennas.htm



And this gives some interesting info on the Wade line of single-channel antennas. The issue may be getting one aimed at UHF 22 ...
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/WadeSCY.html 


What makes this appealing to Carnivore's situation is the desire to get a single station at near right-angle to his main source. Combination of both narrow channel gain in the antenna and a JoinTenna sounds like it would do what he needs, if anyone makes the right antenna.


Have fun,

Frank


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13285160
> 
> 
> I just posted some antenna construction details on the UHF antenna construction thread.
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post13285135



And I just noticed that I screwed up my base dimensions and built my antenna ~10% larger than the intended CM-4221 clone. If the size difference is just a linear frequency shift, I get a much better fit to the 14-52 post-transition UHF channel range.


Thus a question: how will antenna designs change to accommodate the post-transition spectrum

- UHF 14-52 only (all but the 8-bays have gain peaks beyond 52)

- fairly common use of VHF hi

- rare use of VHF low, but in large markets


We're (hopefully) all aware of the many devices with dubious or uncomfirmed performance; what's out there on the possible side?


Have fun,

Frank


----------



## holl_ands

You may want to maintain coverage for the so-called 700 MHz band if new features turn

out to be "must haves"....such as 1080p MPEG4 file delivery services....or whatever else appears...


FYI: Wade Antennas also makes CYD (and pro J) series Yagis for UHF band:
http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/UHF%20Antennas.pdf 
http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/jseriesuhf.pdf 

in addition to the VHF "single-channel" antennas:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/WadeSCY.html 


Note that percent bandwidth is about the same, whether in lo-VHF,

hi-VHF or UHF band....hence "single-channel" antennas cover just

one channel in lo-VHF band, three channels in hi-VHF and about 10 in UHF.


Wade-Antennas (in Canada) makes an extensive range of Home, Pro (CATV)

and military antennas:
http://www.wade-antenna.com/


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13285349
> 
> 
> ....Carnivore... desire(s) to get a single station at near right-angle to his main source. Combination of both narrow channel gain in the antenna and a JoinTenna sounds like it would do what he needs, if anyone makes the right antenna.



The Jointenna, if installed on the downlead, wipes out too many nearby channels. It would be best to use the Jointenna as just a bandpass filter, putting an F75T on its "all channels" input port, and combining it into the main coax with a 2-way splitter.


Pico/ TruSpec used to make a nice, inexpensive, field tunable bandpass filter, BPF-UHF, that outperformed the Jointenna and sold it for under $40, but they discontinued it years ago. Here is an old catalog page showing its pass-band.

http://www.multicominc.com/active/ma...mhz_bpfuhf.pdf 


You should NOT call the phone number of the host of that linked page to try to obtain one, as they do not have any and don't sell to individuals, and will probably delete that page if anyone calls them.


I'm trying to get Pico to make up some more, but they say they need to be able to sell a thousand to make it worth their while, but I can only commit to taking a hundred and I haven't had any luck getting anyone else to order large enough quantities.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13297347
> 
> 
> You may want to maintain coverage for the so-called 700 MHz band if new features turn
> 
> out to be "must haves"....such as 1080p MPEG4 file delivery services....or whatever else appears...



It would be ironic if the upper UHF channel auction resulted in greater need for consumer OTA reception ...


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13299291
> 
> 
> It would be ironic if the upper UHF channel auction resulted in greater need for consumer OTA reception ...



I was thinking about this. Maybe I won't want to filter out above 52, if I could be getting Internet access, etc. over my 4228 some day.


----------



## holl_ands

Using JoinTenna as a bandpass notch filter on "wideband" antenna input

suppresses multipath on protected channel prior to combiner.


However, if the JoinTenna's other "single-channel" filter port is bypassed,

multipath picked up by that antenna can degrade ALL other channels.


Which is why the JoinTenna is intended to pass (only) one channel on one input

and will notch out that same channel on the other input in order to suppress

multipath both ways.


Of course, both methods can be configured to see which works better.

And see how many channels near the protected channel are affected,

if at all (after all most are only 5 miles away).


----------



## fbov

Mike, if I understand you and Holl_ands correctly, the big issue with the JoinTenna is the bite it takes out of the adjacent channel space. The bandpass filter takes a smaller bite, but both interfere with reception from the primary antenna on either side of the target channel.


Carnivore, have you looked at your post-transition signal field on TVFool? WLIW will move down a channel and nearby channels will increase power. You might find that today's solution is short-lived if you don't consider these changes.


HAve fun,

Frank


----------



## mdodge




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13283459
> 
> 
> I was thinking of untwisting so that it connects to a balun looking like a UHF loop
> 
> antenna (albeit somewhat out of round) and put two capacitors in series
> 
> with loop so that it looks more like an "inverted-L" whip (vice a short) at VHF freqs.
> 
> [One capacitor on one of top "corners", the second at the bottom,
> 
> where short leg reconnects to balun....disconnects at VHF freqs.]



When I get back to work next week, I'll have to look for a coat hanger. Just for grins, I'll hookup a network analyzer to it and do a sweep. I'll send you a Smith Chart of the sweep so you'll have a place to start.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13299486
> 
> 
> Mike, if I understand you and Holl_ands correctly, the big issue with the JoinTenna is the bite it takes out of the adjacent channel space. The bandpass filter takes a smaller bite, but both interfere with reception from the primary antenna on either side of the target channel.



The Jointenna combines a bandpass filter, a bandstop or notch filter, and a low loss combiner in one device, but its bandstop filter is inconveniently wide, attenuating more than half a dozen channels around its tuned frequency.


If you use either the Jointenna or any other filter just as a bandpass filter on the single channel antenna line, then nothing gets filtered off the main, wideband antenna line, but your desired signal coming from the single antenna will exceed and overwhelm the undesired signal of that same channel that is coming off the wideband antenna, which is not pointed at the single, off-axis transmitter. With analog signals, you would wind up with a double image, but digital signals can withstand low levels of undesired signals and you usually get away with it.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mdodge* /forum/post/13299999
> 
> 
> When I get back to work next week, I'll have to look for a coat hanger. Just for grins, I'll hookup a network analyzer to it and do a sweep. I'll send you a Smith Chart of the sweep so you'll have a place to start.



Cool...we can compare to VSWR sweeps Kerry Cozad did for loop/rabbit-ears, et. al.


Just to make sure, here's a marked up drawing showing the mods.

Impedance changes due to capacitors is small, so don't expect miracles....as if.....










Of course, if you only need UHF, don't bother adding the capacitors....

they're the frustrating part of the mod anyway.... & might receive close in VHF.


For those wondering what an "Inverted-L" antenna is:
http://www.cebik.com/wire/ltv.html 

They are normally used in HF band (esp. vehicle whip antennas bent over & tied-back)

to exploit short-range NVIS (Near Vertical Incidence Skywave) propagation.


PS: Years ago my wife went through the entire house and replaced wire coat hangers

with plastic....leaving me with nothing to work with...


----------



## Falcon_77

As respects the New York DMA, the channels around WLIW do not appear to be all that crowded:


Within a range of 3 channels, I am showing the following for pre-and post-transition:


WMBC ind. 18 18

WLIW PBS 22 21

WFTY telef 23 23

WNYE ind. 24 24


Would getting a 21 jointenna now be a good idea, with the assumption that the notch may be wide enough to pass 22 in the interim?


----------



## holl_ands

Cuz the trash can lid has better WAF "aesthetics"....like the SS-1000.


----------



## goober55

I am on the outskirts of Windber, PA over 80 miles from Pittsburgh. Using a DB8 multidirectional UHF/HD antenna and PA-16 UHF Amp kit both made by Terrestrial Digital, I pull in ALL of the Pittsburgh digital HD stations at 80% !!

as well as the Johnstown, PA locals at 100%. Did not expect this kind of reception. Very pleased.


----------



## dumbfeet57

Attached is output from tvfool.com. Although the location I am working with is close to the towers, it is in a valley with N-S ridges both to the west and east (


----------



## alphanguy

Well, after much research and wringing of hands, I've decided to stack 2 XG-91's to try to pull in a station that is 78 miles form me. It brodcasts at 50KW, transmitter height is 1000 ft. Currently, I have a radio shack lp-210 with UHF gain of 9.2, and radio shack pre-amp. Since the XG-91 advertizes a gain on this channel (17) for about 14.5 Db... I would hope the stak would pull it in reliably. TVfool puts the signal at my location for this channel at -123. I do receieve analog on this with my current setup, very snowy most of the time, just mildly snowy in the morning and evening. My question is this: Should I stack vertically or horizontally.... advantages or disadvantages of each?


----------



## fbov

As an overall resource ... all the other links are here.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=546066 


You'll find these at the top for a side-by-side:
http://www.atechfabrication.com/info...nna_system.htm 
http://www.atechfabrication.com/prod...on_antenna.htm 


And another on the general antenna topic
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html 

with a link part way down to
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html 

He also discusses his experiences with ganging antennas.


Most people will recommend Channel Master or Wineguard over Radio Shack for antenna amps, combiners, baluns, etc. For weak signals, it's a noise issue; the better stuff will give you weaker stations.


The stacking direction will determine the way the reception pattern changes - narrower in the direction of the stack. The principles discussed under ganging above apply regardless of antenna type. Vertical will give a wide pattern that's focused at the horizon; side-by-side a narrow pattern that is not sensitive to tilt.


The one subtlety I've seen with Yagis is that side-by-side needs a secondary boom on each, to move the cross members below the reflector aperture. Verticals aren't involved in reception, but a horizontal cross member can become part of the antenna.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dumbfeet57* /forum/post/13322396
> 
> 
> Attached is output from tvfool.com. ... The antenna is a ~10 yr old Phillips combo rabbit ears/UHF loop w/built-in amp positioned in the upper SE corner (living space, not attic) of the house (2-story). ... Signal is passively split to three TVs in various parts of the house, one new digital, two older analog...waiting for coupons
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Coax runs are probably 50 to 75 feet.
> 
> 
> 1. I would like to upgrade at as low a cost as possible to eliminate/reduce the reception problems noted above.
> 
> 2. I would like to keep the antenna indoors, if possible.
> 
> 
> Any insight would be appreciated.
> 
> 
> DH



Your radar plot looks like mine; no distance to the transmitters, but no signal, either. If rabbit ears in a closet are working, even a little, may I suggest you upgrade them where they are?


An inexpensive choice with a major increase in gain is a 4-bay array. The Channel Master CM4221 is under $25 and I can attest that a clone I built was a tremendous improvement over a small Yagi that, in turn, improved upon a UHF loop, despite a 1-story attic mounting. There's even a thread for making antennas, if you'd like to experiment.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798265 


Literally put this in the same closet you use now. The increased gain should be quite noticable. To take care of distribution, an antenna pre-amp would not be a bad idea as long as you stick to CM, Wineguard and the like. The down side is that the pre-amp is twice as much as the antenna! Sorry ...


(I'll note that he does have a VHF 11 station, but with 16 dB greater signal than his UHF's. The CM4221 is only down 12 dB at ch 11 (201 MHz) vs. ch 14 (473 hz). I get a real nice 8 and 10.)


----------



## richo270

On the antenna basics page, I read about the signal loosing strength every time one splits it. In my home I have my antenna signal split into 4 different runs of coax to feed TVs in 4 rooms. My question is, would the signal still lose strength if the TVs were off, or only used one at a time, as is usually the case


----------



## ctdish

The loss is independent of whether the TV's are on or off. So you are losing 6 to about 10 dB by splitting.

John


----------



## richo270

OK, well that answers that question. The reason I was asking is that I am thinking of how to arrange my system post-transition to the digital signal conversion. I had thought to only get one converter box, and insert it into the line before I split it. Could I use an in-line amplifier after the converter box to make up for the loss, or do I really need a box for every TV?


Thanks,

Richo


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *richo270* /forum/post/13327443
> 
> 
> do I really need a box for every TV?



I don't know this for sure, but I'm thinking that what is being called a "converter box" is in fact a ATSC receiver with a output that an analogTV can receive. According to HDTVexpert you will need a separate box for each TV.

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/diecast.html 


Does anyone know for sure if those LG boxes are really converters, or tuners?


----------



## richo270

Neil,


Yes, of course you are quite right. As I understand it, these boxes are both converters and tuners. Converters, in that they take the over-the-air signals that now will be in digital form, and convert it into an analog form that most of our old TVs can see. And they also are a tuner, in that we will have to use these boxes, usually through the remote that comes with them, in order to change channels.


This will not be much different than what I do now. I have two inputs into my house TV system. One is a Dish satellite antenna that goes through a Dish box, that I have to use to select any of the many Dish channels. The other is an over-the air antenna input that sees my local UHF TV signals. I have an A-B switch that lets me switch between them to go into my house network, and when I am on the Dish network, I have to go to the room with the Dish box to change channels.


Those of us who live in rural areas will not get any local channels over our Dish network, and so we will not get any local news, weather, or sports from our local area, except over our over-the air signal.


Thus what I think I understand is that once the Digital Transition happens, I will have to go to my central TV signal distribution center to BOTH change the Dish channels for the whole-house TV network, AND use the Digital-to Analog converter/tuner to change/tune the over-the-air signals, because my old analog TVs do not have digital tuners.


This will be the case if and only if, I can use one digital-to-analog tuner/converter for my whole house system. Thus my original question, can I use one digital converter box, and split it up, perhaps with an in-line amplifier to overcome signal loss?


If I can not do this, then of course I would have to distribute my antenna signal to all my TVs , and get a number of converter boxes to translate and tune each TV individually. Not my first choice.


Thanks,

Richo


----------



## alphanguy

Many of you are familiar with Wade-Delhi's power zoom UHF extender. I've always wondered... since that thing is supposed to increase gain, has anyone ever tried attatching more than one to the front of a UHF antenna? Theoretically... could you attatch 2 or even 3 and get more improvement in gain?


----------



## fbov

Richo,

I'm no expert, but I've read enough to give a layman's response.


Regarding the coupon eligible converter boxes (CECBs), they are a replacement tuner, not a converter. They only output the single channel they're tuned to output, via either composite, (rarely S-video, but all with stereo audio) and always RF/antenna on ch 3 or 4. They do not, however, convert the entire digital reception range to RF for the TV's receiver to tune. The TV stays on 3/4.


That means you need a separate box for every channel you want to watch, usually one for each TV - a set-top box, STB. If you replicate your current satellite box model, the one CECB works the same. I believe there are satellite combiners, but if you're combining RF, it's just like splitters.


The RF signal distribution is straightforward, regardless if you're distributing digital RF to STBs or distributing STB output RF to TVs. There are two parts, reception and distribution. For the latter, the dish box or CECB should give you plenty of signal; search one of the dish threads for your box to be sure.


The antenna needs to provide enough signal for the CECB to decode reliably - maybe 80+ on the built-in signal level meter. That starts with sufficient size/gain, proper mounting and aiming, and includes a mast-mounted pre-amp if you have a long cable run or want very faint stations. The single CECB simplifies distribution; individual CECBs will likely demand a mast pre-amp to ensure enough gain through the splitters.


How's that sound?

Frank


----------



## PA_MainyYak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *goober55* /forum/post/13316841
> 
> 
> I am on the outskirts of Windber, PA over 80 miles from Pittsburgh. Using a DB8 multidirectional UHF/HD antenna and PA-16 UHF Amp kit both made by Terrestrial Digital, I pull in ALL of the Pittsburgh digital HD stations at 80% !!
> 
> as well as the Johnstown, PA locals at 100%. Did not expect this kind of reception. Very pleased.



I live in Brownstown and even with Laurel Mountain in the way, I'm able to (sometimes) pick up the Pittsburgh stations. I'm not surprised at your altitude that the Pittsburgh stations come in. Have you had any luck with the Altoona stations?


----------



## richo270




fbov said:


> Richo,
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding the coupon eligible converter boxes (CECBs), they are a replacement tuner, not a converter. They only output the single channel they're tuned to output, via either composite, (rarely S-video, but all with stereo audio) and always RF/antenna on ch 3 or 4. They do not, however, convert the entire digital reception range to RF for the TV's receiver to tune. The TV stays on 3/4.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Frank,
> 
> 
> I do understand that I will have to tune all of my TVs at the CECB, and that is fine with me. If I am willing to tune all my TVs with the one box to the same channel at one time, sometimes in another room, then I think what you are saying is that I can get by with one box.
> 
> 
> I am trying with this to simplify my system as much as I can. My situation is that from my TVFool readout post-transition, I will have 2 stations transmitting in the VHF Lo bands, two in the VHF Hi bands, and 3 in the UHF bands. Plus, I will have a number of translators that will remain with analog signals. Most all of these will have very marginal signal strength.
> 
> 
> Currently I get only marginal reception with a rooftop antenna system with a rotator and amplifier. The two main local analog signals come in OK, but the rest are quite snowy, which is fine, I do not watch them much, and I am used to it. I am not line-of-sight, living up in the mountains and bouncing the signal off of several mountains to get to me. One of my main concerns is that I may not get signal lockup at the CECB box with the marginal signal strength.
> 
> 
> So it looks like I will have a UHF and VHF signal coming in, then splitting it so part goes through the converter to translate the digital signal, and part remaining analog to pick up the low power repeaters Then I will have to recombine them to go over my home distribution network. When you combine that with my Dish signal, it sounds like I will have a number of signal switches to deal with. My wife is not happy with that.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Richo


----------



## fbov

Richo,

Don't upgrade anything until you get your CECB and give it a try. People on those threads report some boxes have excellent sensitivity; verify the problem before fixing it.


And sadly some switching is in your future.


Frank


----------



## scsiguy72

I put up a VU-120RX (Radio Shack $29.00) Chimney mount and get most all the channels I want. I don't have a pre-amp or rotor.


The only real problem I have is Channel 11.1 I get very poor pixilation and the signal is the weakest on that channel. The source is less than 10 compass points different but it is VHF.


If I aim directly at it, I lose some of my independent stations and the networks get occasional dropouts. Would a pre-amp help and if so any recommendations?



* yellow - vhf KNTV-DT 11.1 NBC SAN JOSE CA 259° 39.3 12

* yellow - uhf KTFK-DT 64.1 SAH STOCKTON CA 311° 19.4 62

* red - uhf KTNC-DT 42.1 AZA CONCORD CA 315° 19.5 63

* violet - uhf KTVU-DT 2.1 FOX OAKLAND CA 266° 40.8 56

* violet - uhf KCSM-DT 43.1 PBS SAN MATEO CA 266° 40.8 43

* violet - uhf KQED-DT 9.1 PBS SAN FRANCISCO CA 266° 40.8 30

* violet - uhf KRON-DT 4.1 MNT SAN FRANCISCO CA 266° 40.8 57

* violet - uhf KGO-DT 7.1 ABC SAN FRANCISCO CA 266° 40.8 24

* violet - uhf KMTP-DT 33.1 IND SAN FRANCISCO CA 266° 40.8 33

* violet - uhf KPIX-DT 5.1 CBS SAN FRANCISCO CA 266° 40.8 29

* violet - uhf KCNS-DT 38.1 SAH SAN FRANCISCO CA 266° 40.8 39

* violet - uhf KOVR-DT 13.1 CBS STOCKTON CA 1° 42.5 25

* violet - uhf KBWB-DT 20.1 IND SAN FRANCISCO CA 266° 40.8 19


----------



## fbov

scsiguy,

There's a bunch of info here on various antenna options, along with gain curves for comparison. This analysis includes the VU-120 in VHF, in case you want to see your gain curve.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


Options I see:

- Increase antenna gain by changing to a bigger UHF/VHF (CM3671B) or a UHF with substantial VHF-high sensitivity (CM4228)

- Add a mast pre-amp. You have a threshold station here. A good (NOT Radio Shack) low noise pre-amp will give you a better signal-to-noise (S/N)ratio so your current antenna can use the gain it's got.

- Add a rotator, since with an angular change, you get all stations.

- Use 2 antennas, a VHF aimed at KNTV and a UHF aimed like you have the VU-120XR, with a low noise pre-amp to combine UHF and VHF feeds.


My guess is that a rotator would do the job, but require adjustment, control line installation, etc. A different antenna may be all you need, but you won't know until you try it; return policies vary so you may be stuck withit if it doesn't work. The pre-amp should give the S/N ratio enough of a boost to make 12 look good, power is supplied by the existing coax down lead, and you can always change the antenna if you're not happy.


AVS members generally recommend Channel Master or Wineguard mast pre-amps. The critical spec for you is noise factor; lower is better, and 2 dB in UHF is pretty good.


Have fun,

Frank


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alphanguy* /forum/post/13330684
> 
> 
> Many of you are familiar with Wade-Delhi's power zoom UHF extender. I've always wondered... since that thing is supposed to increase gain, has anyone ever tried attatching more than one to the front of a UHF antenna? Theoretically... could you attatch 2 or even 3 and get more improvement in gain?



Adding more directors to a yagi improves gain, but I think it's pretty much logarithmic, so you quickly reach a point of diminishing returns.


----------



## donnyjaguar

I'm guessing you could keep adding range extenders to the Delhi, but the practical limit is probably just one. The boom would sag under the weight and pull the elements out of alignment and this would have a detrimental effect on performance.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scsiguy72* /forum/post/13342739
> 
> 
> The only real problem I have is Channel 11.1 I get very poor pixilation and the signal is the weakest on that channel. The source is less than 10 compass points different but it is VHF.



What does analog 11 look like? Is it badly ghosted or filled with noise? The VU-120 is not very directional for VHF, at 10 degrees off, it appears to be down less than 1dB.


What tuner are you using? Do you need Low-VHF for the interim? If not, a 7-51 antenna may be a better choice.


----------



## PanamaMike

I wanted to know if it's possible to feed multiple TV's via one antenna. Is it possible to have it tap into the main cable line that feeds the entire house?


A faq or something of the sort that would help me better understand how I could use an antenna would be much appreciated.


Regards,


Mike


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PanamaMike* /forum/post/13363465
> 
> 
> I wanted to know if it's possible to feed multiple TV's via one antenna. Is it possible to have it tap into the main cable line that feeds the entire house?
> 
> 
> A faq or something of the sort that would help me better understand how I could use an antenna would be much appreciated.



It is certainly possible to feed multiple TV's with one antenna, though a distribution and/or pre-amp may be needed to get this done.


It is not possible, however, to use a cable TV line and add an antenna to it, w/o filtering out the cable spectrum that lies in the OTA spectrum at least. A separate cable run would be needed if you want to have both.


As for a FAQ, this page might be useful, though it is rather lengthy and has one of the worst color schemes:

http://www.tvtower.com/hdtv_antenna_and_reception.html 


The distances noted on the antennas, however, seem to be way too short for most areas. 20-45 miles for a 3671, for instance. I would go with 50+ for that one, though most areas won't need Low-VHF capabilities.


----------



## wildwillie6

There's also a pretty good FAQ on antennas at http://www.plainmoney.com , though it may be a bit basic for your needs.

_The distances noted on the antennas, however, seem to be way too short for most areas. 20-45 miles for a 3671, for instance. I would go with 50+ for that one, though most areas won't need Low-VHF capabilities._


I wonder about quoted distances like those . . . I assume they're just being conservative, to avoid disappointment. But I'm regularly getting signals from 95 miles away over two mountain ridges, using a ChannelMaster 4248 with 7777 preamp.


----------



## richo270




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PanamaMike* /forum/post/13363465
> 
> 
> I wanted to know if it's possible to feed multiple TV's via one antenna. Is it possible to have it tap into the main cable line that feeds the entire house?
> 
> 
> A faq or something of the sort that would help me better understand how I could use an antenna would be much appreciated.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Mike




Hi Mike,


Another way you might go is to do what I do and have a simple A/B switch you can get from Radio Shack, and switch either your cable TV (I have satellite) or the antenna feed into you whole house system. That way you can use a single coax system throughout your house. I seldom watch my local antenna stations in other rooms, so the switching is not a big hassle.


For my main TV in the room with the satellite box, it is even easier if your TV has both coax and AV inputs (the red and white jacks). I run my satellite input into the AV TV inputs, and the antenna into the coax F-connector input. Then on the TV remote I can chose any of the antenna channels, or hit 00 and it will switch to the satellite AV input.


Regards,

Richo


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wildwillie6* /forum/post/13376638
> 
> 
> There's also a pretty good FAQ on antennas at http://www.plainmoney.com , though it may be a bit basic for your needs.



The antenna page on that site is here:

http://www.plainmoney.com/antenna/ 


I will have to disagree with this statement, at least in part:



> Quote:
> What are the harder channels to get good reception on?
> 
> 
> Generally, the higher-numbered channels. That's especially true of the UHF (Ultra High Frequency) channels above 13, which are usually more difficult than all the VHF (Very High Frequency) channels 2-13.



Higher UHF channels (~50+) are generally more difficult to receive than lower ones (20's-30's), but Low-VHF (2-6) DTV channels are usually the most difficult. Upper VHF 7-13 stations may be the "easiest" to receive, but it depends on the circumstances.


----------



## 99gecko

It is a re-engineered 1950's Hoverman being dubbed the Double Bay Gray-Hoverman. It has been rethought by retired antenna engineers and OTA hobbyists using modern antenna modeling software.

Early indications are that it outperforms the CM4228 in the UHF bandwidth up to ~ channel 53.
http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardwar.../2021223.shtml 


Oh yeah, it is open source.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *99gecko* /forum/post/13382616
> 
> 
> ... Early indications are that it outperforms the CM4228 in the UHF bandwidth up to ~ channel 53.



Because it's designed to peak at ch 53, not 63 like most commercial UHF antennas. The single G-H curve looks a lot like my 125% 4221 - it's shifted to lower frequencies - and not surprisingly, 127mm pops up a lot in the G-H design since 10" (254 mm) is the basis dimension of a 125% 4221.


For more information:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post13331468


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: The Hoverman was discussed in this thread:
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/...d.php?t=567148 

Links are all broken, so you'll have to search..


Fol. is a picture of my old Hoverman (vertical zig-zag) in action.

[Note moon in top left...and broken element at bottom.]

I use it for mobile testing, because it collapses to a small size.


I've tested the 4-Bay Hoverman vs CM-4221 vs DTA-5000 Smart

Antenna vs CM-4228. Missing an element, it's close to CM-4221....

[At least on CH 18, 19, 30 & 40.]


----------



## PanamaMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *richo270* /forum/post/13379161
> 
> 
> Hi Mike,
> 
> 
> Another way you might go is to do what I do and have a simple A/B switch you can get from Radio Shack, and switch either your cable TV (I have satellite) or the antenna feed into you whole house system. That way you can use a single coax system throughout your house. I seldom watch my local antenna stations in other rooms, so the switching is not a big hassle.
> 
> 
> For my main TV in the room with the satellite box, it is even easier if your TV has both coax and AV inputs (the red and white jacks). I run my satellite input into the AV TV inputs, and the antenna into the coax F-connector input. Then on the TV remote I can chose any of the antenna channels, or hit 00 and it will switch to the satellite AV input.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Richo



Thanks for the input guys, it's much appreciated. My situation is as follows. I have a Dish Sat. system and use 722 DVR. I can tune local channels using the 722, but there are days the signal is week, or based on the direction of the antenna, I lose at least one channel.


I'm using a silver sensor type antenna. I've used the antenna mapping sites before, I've learned I'm approx. 9 miles away from the main towers. This is supposed to be close and provide for a good signal, but since I live in a somewhat hilly area, I guess I may be getting blocked signals or getting some sort of RF interference. I was hoping to be able to determine which of these may be my issue.


As far as asking about multiple tuners to one antenna. I've been playing with the idea of getting multiple HD PVR cards for an HTPC so that I can record multiple OTA channels simultaneously since all the best shows usually run at the same time. It would be nice to just get once nice antenna rig to do this.


Also a secondary use would be to get OTA for other TVs that would be on different levels in the house. Running cable would be an expensive and difficult proposition, that's why I asked about tapping into the regular wires.


Mike


Mike


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13384407
> 
> 
> ... I've tested the 4-Bay Hoverman vs CM-4221 vs DTA-5000 Smart Antenna vs CM-4228. Missing an element, it's close to CM-4221.... [At least on CH 18, 19, 30 & 40.]



Missing an element? I'm seeing extras! This is an interesting design, especially the folding-element reflector - fairly compact compared with a 4221's. Assuming it's a 10" basis, Ch 18-40 should be it's sweet spot.


----------



## holl_ands

My Hoverman has two vertical "whiskers" sort of resembling the feed on a CM-4221,

and short "kinks" on some elements.
http://www.wtfda.org/images/stories/pdf/hoverman.pdf 

Note above pdf has vertical "whiskers", but is missing "kinks"....


BTW: I'm not sure whether we ought to call it a 4-Bay (cuz it's nearly

same size at CM-4221)....or a 3-Bay....recount the "bow-ties"....


My Hoverman appears to be same as in the lo-rez R-S Hoverman picture

found in the Super Gray-Hoverman report:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/ 

However, the Super Gray-Hoverman greatly extends the "kinks" and

eliminates the vertical "whiskers".....and used a more efficient screen reflector.


----------



## fbov

I've seen these links. If I'd known it was for real, I might have given it a try, especially if I had an old VHF Yagi sitting around. Instead I'm staring at my second 4221 clone - new CM baluns and diplexer on order.


And of course, it's performance improvement is real; it trades upper UHF for better 14-52 channel gain, just more severely than mine. Does anyone gang these together?


Frank


----------



## gcd0865

Hi All:


Thanks to everyone on this board for all the very helpful information, as I'm currently upgrading my antenna setup in preparation for my upcoming HDTV purchase. I'm testing out a YA-1713 on analog channels 11 and 13 at a distance of 65 miles over pretty flat terrain. The digital versions of both channels are currently on UHF, but will revert back to 11 and 13 next February. The analog 11 and 13 currently come in at around a 6-7 out of 10 in the daytime, and 7-8 out of 10 in the evening (no multipath/ghosting at all for either channel).


Wondering whether these signal strengths will be sufficient for when the digital channels revert back to 11 and 13 next February. I've read on this board that the Funke PSP-1922 VHF-high antenna has a little more gain than the YA-1713, but I'm not sure how much more (a little confused about the dBi and dBd ratings I saw). How much might the analog signal strengths on my 11 and 13 improve if I switched to the 1922?


Also had a few questions about the 1922. I see that the 1922 is about 13 feet long, whereas the YA-1713 is 8 feet, 4 inches long. Is the maximum width (at the rear) also about 35 inches (same as the YA-1713)? The rear reflectors look to be considerably larger than those on my 91XG - true? And would RG-11 coax fit within the 1922's connector assembly?


Thanks in advance for your kind assistance...


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gcd0865* /forum/post/13396093
> 
> 
> Hi All:
> 
> 
> Thanks to everyone on this board for all the very helpful information, as I'm currently upgrading my antenna setup in preparation for my upcoming HDTV purchase. I'm testing out a YA-1713 on analog channels 11 and 13 at a distance of 65 miles over pretty flat terrain. The digital versions of both channels are currently on UHF, but will revert back to 11 and 13 next February. The analog 11 and 13 currently come in at around a 6-7 out of 10 in the daytime, and 7-8 out of 10 in the evening (no multipath/ghosting at all for either channel).
> 
> 
> Wondering whether these signal strengths will be sufficient for when the digital channels revert back to 11 and 13 next February. I've read on this board that the Funke PSP-1922 VHF-high antenna has a little more gain than the YA-1713, but I'm not sure how much more (a little confused about the dBi and dBd ratings I saw). How much might the analog signal strengths on my 11 and 13 improve if I switched to the 1922?
> 
> 
> Also had a few questions about the 1922. I see that the 1922 is about 13 feet long, whereas the YA-1713 is 8 feet, 4 inches long. Is the maximum width (at the rear) also about 35 inches (same as the YA-1713)? The rear reflectors look to be considerably larger than those on my 91XG - true? And would RG-11 coax fit within the 1922's connector assembly?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for your kind assistance...



The 1922 will have around 2db better gain on 11 and 13.Whether that will be enough is anyone's guess at this point in time.The rear reflector elements are 33".RG-11 is too large.Assuming you're using a preamp @ 60+ miles,a short RG-6 lead would be the prefered method.If you want to try one,let me know.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gcd0865* /forum/post/13396093
> 
> 
> Hi All:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've read on this board that the Funke PSP-1922 VHF-high antenna has a little more gain than the YA-1713, but I'm not sure how much more (a little confused about the dBi and dBd ratings I saw). How much might the analog signal strengths on my 11 and 13 improve if I switched to the 1922?
> 
> 
> Also had a few questions about the 1922. I see that the 1922 is about 13 feet long, whereas the YA-1713 is 8 feet, 4 inches long. Is the maximum width (at the rear) also about 35 inches (same as the YA-1713)? The rear reflectors look to be considerably larger than those on my 91XG - true? And would RG-11 coax fit within the 1922's connector assembly?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for your kind assistance...



I don't think it's much wider but it's certainly longer and heavier. I noticed a significant improvement with the 1922 over the antennacraft Y10 7-13 which should be equivalent to the Winegard. I wouldn't go to the trouble of RG11 if I were you for vhf and it won't fit inside the balun on the 1922 anyway. You will pick up .1db or so from the raw connection on the balun which would be more than you'd get from RG11 over RG6 at vhf frequencies.


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: If you look at the gain for some of the simpler Funke antennas and compare to

equivalent W-G/C-M products, you'll quickly see that Funke uses dBi = dBd + 2.15 dB.


----------



## Carnivore

Following up on my earlier post re NYC stations, I was able to get most of what I wanted by combining two antennas without having to use a Jointenna. I aimed a 4-bay CM-4221 at the Empire State Building for NY UHF & VHF channels, and an 2-bay DB2 at Long Island for WLIW-DT 22. I ran separate RG6 lines from each antenna into the house and joined them inside with an ordinary Channel Plus splitter/combiner. This arrangement also picks up nearby NJN even though I'm not aimed at it.


My only disappointment is that I'm not picking up WRNN-DT 48.3 to my north from the backside of the 4221. Maybe I'll be able to remove the screen after the transition but for now I need it to get WNET's weak signal from the Empire until they upgrade it.


What do I need to do now to minimize lightning risk? HERE is a picture of the installation.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Carnivore* /forum/post/13401034
> 
> 
> ... What do I need to do now to minimize lightning risk? HERE is a picture of the installation.



First off, glad to hear your solution is no more than a complete second antenna system! (Yes, I'm being sarcastic, but if it works ...)


Any roof top antenna needs to meet NEC requirements. I recommend reviewing the stuff at the bottom of this link and if you think anything's missing, consult a licensed electrician, just so your insurance co. can't back out of a claim.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html 


Congrats again!

Frank


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Carnivore* /forum/post/13401034
> 
> 
> What do I need to do now to minimize lightning risk? HERE is a picture of the installation.



In addition to adequate grounding, I'm currently using one of these before and after my preamp in an attempt to cut down on surge damage to a GaSFet preamp. We'll see how it goes. The loss on these is negligible and I've not been able to see any differences in signal levels.


----------



## TMullenJr

I'm looking for some help. I bought a Channel Master 3671 with the desire of getting channels from NYC, but with the likely fallback to get WTNH-8 (ABC) in CT. After installing the antenna on my roof and aligning it, I wasn't getting anything at all from NYC, so I shifted to my WTNH fallback, and I'm only getting a signal in the mid 30's on my DirecTV HR-20 receiver. The station is supposed to be about 30 miles away. I know I'm in a valley, but I really expected to be able to get at least this channel. When I put it together, I made sure that none of the criss-cross pieces were touching.


My question is there any way to test the antenna for possible issues? For example, if I put an ohm meter on the antenna connections, should I get 300 ohms?


Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm in New Milford, CT 06776, and have the antenna aimed around 130 degrees.


Thanks.


----------



## Konrad2

> My question is there any way to test the antenna for

> possible issues? For example, if I put an ohm meter

> on the antenna connections, should I get 300 ohms?


The 300 Ohms is the AC impedance at RF frequencies.

A DC Ohm meter might read 0 Ohms (UHF loop) or

infinity (rabbit ears). In addition, the impedance

will almost certainly vary significantly with

frequency, there might only be 1 or 2 frequencies that

are actually 300 Ohms.


You can do a visual inspection. Make sure everything is

assembled correctly, no missing or extra pieces, nothing

bent or otherwise damaged.


Make sure you have the antenna pointed in the correct direction.

It might be that the front and back of the antenna are reversed

from what you think. (Yes, people have done this.)


If you can't see the towers and are aiming with a compass,

make sure the directions you are using are for magnetic north

rather than true north.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TMullenJr* /forum/post/13404327
> 
> 
> After installing the antenna on my roof and aligning it, I wasn't getting anything at all from NYC, so I shifted to my WTNH fallback, and I'm only getting a signal in the mid 30's on my DirecTV HR-20 receiver. The station is supposed to be about 30 miles away. I know I'm in a valley, but I really expected to be able to get at least this channel.



You may want to run a TVFool.com plot for your location. A general ZIP code (06776) plot of the area shows WTNH as your best bet, but at -86dBm. However, it sounds like you may be in a tougher spot than the general ZIP plot is showing.


Are you using a pre-amp?


----------



## TMullenJr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/13407968
> 
> 
> Are you using a pre-amp?



No. I didn't really think I would need any amps for 30 miles with an antenna rated at 100+ miles for VHF.


And I know it is not uncommon to have the antenna backwards, but it is correct. I even doubted myself when I wasn't getting a signal & spun it around to double check.


----------



## fbov

Please post a TVFool file for your exact address. Falcon_77 is right that TVFool can be very location-specific, especially if you use lat/long. (And include before/after transition). If nothing else, it'll give folks here some idea what's available to your antenna. Your zip code looks atrocious, but if you were on the right hill, that all could change. Distance isn't as important as what's in the way.


The pre-amp may not be needed for signal level, but rather signal-to-noise ratio, to enable a signal lock.


----------



## ctdish

The other thing to note is how does analog channel 8 look. Is there any snow or ghosts? Aiming a long antenna is best done with the picture watched as the antenna is turned and peaking for best signal. The best picture on channel 8 will produce the best chance of getting WTNH DT.

John


----------



## TMullenJr

Here are the before & after images from tvfool.


----------



## TMullenJr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/13410663
> 
> 
> The other thing to note is how does analog channel 8 look. Is there any snow or ghosts? Aiming a long antenna is best done with the picture watched as the antenna is turned and peaking for best signal. The best picture on channel 8 will produce the best chance of getting WTNH DT.
> 
> John



Believe it or not, I actually don't have anything with an analog tuner in that room. I'm going to hook up a VCR temporarily to see the analog quality. I'll post the results tomorrow night.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TMullenJr* /forum/post/13409793
> 
> 
> No. I didn't really think I would need any amps for 30 miles with an antenna rated at 100+ miles for VHF.



Distance measurements are a "rough" indicator or relative gain, but aren't very useful in the real world, especially in situations like yours.


After reviewing the TV Fool plot, I would still suggest trying a pre-amp, like a CM7777. However, -84dBm shouldn't be hard to receive w/o one, so perhaps something else is amiss. How high above the roof is the antenna? I'm assuming it is a wooded area as well?


A look at analog WTNH 8, as suggested by John, would be a good idea. I would be curious to know what else can be seen on analog.


----------



## fbov

Tmullen,

You are in a fringe to deep fringe area, regardless of your distance from transmitters. I'm in a valley, and need an attic antenna at 7 miles. You're several valleys worse off than me!


You've got the right idea in the 6971; a big VHF/UHF antenna, but it still needs help to deliver the most usable signal. I'd put a low noise pre-amp close to the antenna, so you can see what this baby can really do. I assume you've got good coax to your tuner with professional terminations outside; waterproof the pre-amp connections as best you can.


It'll also be important to aim accurately; do you have a rotor on it? I doubt you can get both Hartford and New Haven directions at once, and you may need to fine tune within those directions.


The last thing would be to upgrade the UHF section. The 6971 has the UHF gain profile of a 4-bay bow-tie, very good but you could upgrade to an 8-bay or high-end Yagi. It comes down to how badly you want to watch PBS ...


Frank


----------



## TuxBobble

I'm looking into getting an OTA antenna. (a small indoor one that I can move if I need to)


My first question is: can I have the antenna hooked up as well as a coax cable connection at the same time? I have no other way of connecting my cable TV (I live in a dorm, so there's no cable box like with a company like Comcast/Time Warner/etc.) and I want to get better digital/HD reception on the OTA channels, but I don't want to sacrifice the channels I get over the coax connection. Is there any solution to this problem? I've never bought/seen an OTA so I didn't know how they connect, or if they can be connected at the same time.


Thanks for all your help, in advance.


----------



## fbov

TuxBobble,

Some quick questions. I'll assume you're set up llike my daughter's dorm, with a coax cable signal feed that screws onto the back of the set.

- does the TV have a tuner (vs "HD Ready" sets)?

- if so, does it tune NTSC, ATSC, QAM or a combination?

- does the TV have separate "antenna" and "cable" screw connections?


As long as you have a tuner, you can use an antenna. If there are separate ANT and CBL connections, both will hook to the TV and it'll switch inputs. If there's only one input on your TV, an external RF switch ($5-10) can allow you to select between cable and OTA.


The type of tuner determines what signals you can see. NTSC is classic analog TV that's going away Feb. 2009 (TVs are still usable through use of a converter box). ATSC is its digital replacement available now but with some channel changes 2/09. QAM is a digital cable TV tuner, for tuning digital cable without a STB.


Finally, go to TVFool.com and find out what channel signal strengths look like where you live. Posting that, now and post-transition, will be very helpful as well.


That's the basics, what have you got?

Frank


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13417967
> 
> 
> - does the TV have a tuner (vs "HD Ready" sets)?



To clarify this point, look for an integrated ATSC/QAM tuner. All new TV's sold since March of last year have at least ATSC (and most QAM), but the easiest way to find out on yours is to look at your remote. Does it have a "." or a "-" next to the number input area?


"HD Ready" means that a TV can accept HD sources through component, etc., but those do not have a tuner.


----------



## richo270




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/13420178
> 
> 
> To clarify this point, look for an integrated ATSC/QAM tuner. All new TV's sold since March of last year have at least ATSC (and most QAM), but the easiest way to find out on yours is to look at your remote. Does it have a "." or a "-" next to the number input area?



Could you be a little more explicit about what "." means, and what "-" means?


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *richo270* /forum/post/13431346
> 
> 
> Could you be a little more explicit about what "." means, and what "-" means?



"." means "dot", and "-" means "dash".


----------



## fbov

As in subchannels 3.1, 3.2, or 3-1, 3-2. A digital tuner remote will have these channel options, in place of plain old analog 3. It's one sign of an ATSC tuner.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13432220
> 
> 
> As in subchannels 3.1, 3.2, or 3-1, 3-2. A digital tuner remote will have these channel options, in place of plain old analog 3. It's one sign of an ATSC tuner.



See the attached picture for an example. This is for my small Westinghouse TV with an integrated tuner. Some use a "." and some a "-" but it does the same thing.


This TV allows me to just enter "2" w/o a dot, to get 2.1 when I'm in digital mode. However, my other TV plays dumb. If I don't enter a 2.1 on my Sony it will pull up a screen that says "no signal." It also has a separate digital mode vs. analog mode (unlike the Samsungs I've seen), so this behavior is puzzling.


----------



## TuxBobble

My TV does have a "." on the remote. But before I got to that explanation I looked on the box and found out that it has a built in ATSC/QAM/NTSC tuner. Easier since the box is right next to me. (I held onto it for transporting the TV places--it's a 26" and therefore is mobile enough to bring with me between my dorm and my house. There is no antenna hookup, only a cable coax. So I assume I'd need some sort of switch, as fbov said, to add an antenna onto it?


I looked at TVFool.com and it was somewhat helpful in identifying signal strengths and what's available in the area, both at home and in my dorm room. Thanks for that information. I guess it really comes down to whether I want the inconvenience of the switcher or not, haha...


----------



## ghken

I've had a weird degradation in reception affecting only one channel that started a little over a month ago. Zip is 49417 and I'm 25-40 miles from my local towers and have had good luck pulling all stations in with an attic mounted antenna. I have available to me both a RS VU-75 VHF/UHF antenna as well as Winegard YA1713 VHF + CM 4221 UHF setup. I use a CM 7777 preamp and a 100' run of RG6.


One of the stations - WOOD-DT 8.1 broadcasting on VHF 7 - dropped in signal strength about a month ago. It used to be solid with very few droputs. Then a month ago dropped to ok but more frequent dropouts. In the last few days it has gotten really bad and is unwatchable. At each of those three phases of reception quality, the signal strength readings on both my Series 3 Tivo and Samsung DTB-H260F tuners has dropped accordingly. On the Tivo, signal strength used to be in the low 80's. Then a month ago dropped to the mid 60's, and now it's at 50 or worse.


I did the following to try to isolate the problem:


1) Ran 25' coax directly from antenna to tuner

2) Swapped antennas

3) Swapped tuner hardware


None of these actions made a difference. The strange thing is that all other locals are unchanged and come in at the same strength they always have. Only WOOD-DT on VHF 7 has deteriorated.


I contacted the station engineer and he told me nothing has changed on the broadcast side. I keep up with the AVS Grand Rapids HDTV thread and asked whether anybody has had trouble with WOOD-DT. No one has.


What could cause VHF 7 to go south while all other channels are unchanged? Could it be the preamp (the only thing I haven't swapped out so far)? Or perhaps some RF interference in the neighborhood or my house that affects VHF 7?


Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ghken* /forum/post/13437782
> 
> 
> What could cause VHF 7 to go south while all other channels are unchanged? Could it be the preamp (the only thing I haven't swapped out so far)? Or perhaps some RF interference in the neighborhood or my house that affects VHF 7?



It sounds like something in your area may be putting out noise on VHF 7. Have you noticed any difference in the signal on analog 8?


I know that bad power lines can significantly affect Low-VHF reception, but I'm not sure on upper VHF. Maybe it's time for the power company to check your local lines to see if any insulators have cracked, etc.


Did you get a new computer? I have seen those cause problems to my analog upper VHF signals.


----------



## fbov

I've noodled this for a bit, and the one thing that explains it is if the VHF section of the pre-amp is dying. Easy to test - cut the power and see if the signal drops. No change in signal is a clear indicator.


If the pre-amp's working, you're back to Falcon_77's ideas, or big new construction between you and the transmitter.


good luck, Frank


----------



## holl_ands

You can't just "cut power" to a Preamp....it becomes a very effective

attenuator (kills the signal). You have to physically bypass or remove it....


If you take down the antenna, while you're at it, try hunting around

(incl. up/down) looking for CH7:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html


----------



## seekermeister

Judging by the length of this thread, I may be beating a dead horse, but so much reading only confuses me more, rather than less. But this thread also appears to be a place to find people that know enough to make my quest a bit easier.


I just got and installed a FusionHDTV7 Gold RT tuner yesterday, but I have not yet bought a new antenna. I have a pair of Radio Shack rabbit ears that I used for testing. When the software scanned the channels, it only found analog channels, and then only 4 out of 15 stations available, and only 2 that displayed...no HDTV channels.


From comments that I have read, people in Australia have no problems receiving digital channels on any antennas, but then they use DVB T tuners instead of ATSC,


Without rambling too much, it boils down to choosing a new antenna. I live in a complex that prohibits attaching any antennas to the building, so I'm limited to something that I can mount on the patio (probably using a mast running through the umbrella hole on the patio table. This limits height considerably to 6-8 feet. I would prefer a multi-directional antenna to eliminate or reduce having to manually adjust to channels, but all of the digital stations are spread on the compass rose between Southeast and Southwest, except one that is Northeast. If I include the analog stations, then they would cover the entire compass rose.The distance of most of the stations vary between 5-25 miles, except one that is 73 miles. Other factors (terrain, obstructions, etc.) aren't too bad. I only want to spend between $50 to $100, but I'm wondering if this amount would be a waste and I should spend more?


All inputs appreciated.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13441242
> 
> 
> You can't just "cut power" to a Preamp....it becomes a very effective
> 
> attenuator (kills the signal). You have to physically bypass or remove it....
> 
> ...



Agreed, but that's the power of the test when one suspects a malfunctioning pre-amp. If the pre-amp is working, he sees a big difference. If it's malfunctioning, it's already an effective attentuator and he sees no difference. And his feet stay on the ground.


You are correct that cutting power does not test effectiveness of a functioning pre-amp - you have to bypass the functioning pre-amp to see if it's doing what you want.


But ghken has a fairly high-end set-up, and may well have had it installed for some time. If his pre-amp has been progressively biting the big one, it explains his observations, and it's easy to test. Make sense?


Frank


----------



## fbov

seekermeister,

you mention Australia and DTB-T - where are you?


If in the US (only, I beleieve) you can ask for a station location and signal analysis at TVFool.com. Put in your exact street address, or better, the long/lat of your proposed antenna location. Post it here and we'll be able to give you some concrete recommendations. 25 miles line-of-sight (LOS) may still be rabbit ear territory, or a low spot at 7 miles with a few hills in the way may require a long-distance antenna.


Balconies will alway do well in the direction they face, and poorly in the opposite due to the building, but as areas of exclusive use, you have a Federal right to an antenna. And there are some good, inexpensive antennas. The actual recommendation will depend on channels, directions and signal strengths, and will likely fit your budget.


Have fun, Frank


----------



## Falcon_77

I don't think there are any Radio Shacks in Australia. I'm guessing that he was reading Fusion reviews, many of which were done in Australia. As for no problems on any antennas there, it is probably for a single review. Reading the Australian board ( http://www.dtvforum.info/ ) will show plenty of problems with reception there as well.


seekermeister, if you can provide your ZIP code, we can run a general area plot from TVFool.com to check your prospects for reception.


----------



## TuxBobble

Sorry for this last post, but I was just wondering if anyone had any positive experience with specific small, indoor, HD antennas (directional or omni, doesn't matter) that they could share. I'll be in the Philadelphia area, or in the NYC area, depending on if I'm home or at school, if that helps...


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13443824
> 
> 
> Agreed, but that's the power of the test when one suspects a malfunctioning pre-amp. If the pre-amp is working, he sees a big difference. If it's malfunctioning, it's already an effective attentuator and he sees no difference. And his feet stay on the ground.
> 
> 
> You are correct that cutting power does not test effectiveness of a functioning pre-amp - you have to bypass the functioning pre-amp to see if it's doing what you want.
> 
> 
> But ghken has a fairly high-end set-up, and may well have had it installed for some time. If his pre-amp has been progressively biting the big one, it explains his observations, and it's easy to test. Make sense?
> 
> 
> Frank



I hear you, but I'm not so sure your test "tells" us anything of value, cuz

nothing can reasonably be expected to "change"....yup, still no signal....


Also could be a degraded cable/connector on the VHF input to the preamp....

Still sounds like he needs to send a trained monkey up the mast....or drop it...


----------



## Dan Kolton

I've requested help on this forum many times in the past because I've had so much trouble with horrible reception in inclement, especially windy, weather. I'm surrounded by close, tall trees. I recently switched from an LG 3410A to a Tivo Series 3 box. No problems at all since the switch, but we'll see when the trees leaf out. Sometimes, apparently, some tuners just can't keep up.


----------



## RadicalRik

Requesting any reommendations for upgrades and improvements as the members of the house have a desire to remain OTA Terrestrial antenna only viewing until or unless satellite offers "a la carte" programming...they just don't offer what I want and whole lot I don't.

Cable (Comcast) is not permitted out in these sticks from what I'm told by Embarq.


Any suggestions are much appreciated.


Antenna:

Radio Shack VU-110 @ 25 Feet.

High-quality double-shield Belden RG-6 coax.

Rotor is disabled due to close lightning strike.


Antenna feeds (2) television sets using RadioShack gold 4-way splitter.

1 - coax into splitter

1- coax to my TV

1 - coax to my VCR

1 - coax to kitchen TV


*Recent purchase of Philips DVDR3575H/37 with ATSC tuner and amplified splitter

will allow the elimination of 4-way splitter to 2-way.

1 - antenna coax into splitter

1 - coax to Philips 3575 then to TV

1- coax to kitchen TV

0 - coax to VCR


Would using two coax downleads running to each TV be better than using a splitter?

If the answer is no, then is the R-Shack splitter as good as any?


As you can see my channel selection, only 2 channels will be VHF and the PBS will be VHF channel 3 and 13 will remain 13 (only digital).


I was hoping to eliminate VHF after the digital change and replace the old RS VU-110 with an improved UHF - only antenna. That is not to be it seems.


I would like to go with a Channel Master or Winegard "combo" antenna but with the straight elements versus the arrow or angled forward type.


I also want to replace rotor with new and better type. Any recommendations? My current dead rotor is a Genie? made by a garage door opener company that stopped making them.


I'm not sure if I need any amplifiers, but if it is recommended, then what type(s)?


My stations as listed by TVfool:

WDRL-DT 41 (24) Ind 18.1mi 247deg

WSET-DT 13 (13.1) ABC 21.6 mi 310 deg

W40BM 47 (32.1) 22.3 mi 358 deg

WWCW 20 (21.1) FOX 21.7 mi 311 deg

WSLS-DT 30 (10.1) NBC 46.9 mi 283 deg

WDBJ-DT 18 (7.1) CBS 47.3 mi 282 deg

WFXR-DT 17 (27.1) FOX 47.2 mi 282 deg

WPXR-DT 36 (38.1) Ind 47.4 mi 282 deg

OR

WDBJ-DT 18 (CBS)

WSLS-DT 30 (NBC)

WSET-DT 34 (ABC) moves to 13 during summer 2009.

WBRA-DT 03 (PBS)

WWCW-DT 20 (FOX) boosts power in February 2009.

WDRL-DT 41 (Unknown status) moves to 24 in February 2009.

WFXR-DT 17 (FOX)

WPXR-DT 36 (Ind/ION)


My Address with Lat/Long:

Address: 1010 Chellis Ford Rd

Lynch Station, VA 24571 [physical location is Leesville. Lynch Station is a post office 7 miles away]

(37.113945, -79.398008)

Latitude37.113945 °

N 37 ° 6' 50.2"

37 ° 6.8367' (degree m.mmmm)

Longitude-79.398008 °

W 79 ° 23' 52.8"

-79 ° 23.8805' (degree m.mmmm)

(37.11469533281682, -79.39821481704712)


----------



## seekermeister

fbov and Falcon_77,


I tried your website for the zip code 74112 (Oklahoma), and found it similar to one that I used at antennaweb.org, but got somewhat differing results. I guess that is to be expected though, because of variables and the accuracy of the information that they use. In any case, I should be receiving alot more stations than I do. I'm going to play with my current antenna some more to see if I can improve it. At least I want to get at least 1 or 2 digital stations so that I can know that the tuner works. It may just be my location, because my upstairs neighbor gets alot better reception than I have...at least on analog stations.


The only reason that I bought this particular tuner is because my other tuner doesn't have a XP x64 driver (PVR 150), and that is my preferred OS. I just received my flat coax to run through the patio door, so I will see what happens when I put the antenna on the patio.


EDIT: I noticed that neither website's output was based on the type of antenna used (directional, multi-directional, analog, HDTV, etc.) and that is the main thing that I was looking for...something to base a purchase decision on.


----------



## bozey45

A lot of posters on these forums seem to like the Channel Master 9521 rotor. Good place to see the specs and all is Solidsignal.com.


----------



## holl_ands

*RadicalRik:* A Preamp should help quite a bit.

A "typical" installation could see a 10 dB improvement in sensitivity,

if nearby stations do not cause desensitization problems.


WDRL-DT will be only 9.6 miles away (Post-Feb2009) and Analog KTLU (CH50)

is only 6 miles away and might increase power in the future.


Hence it would be advisable to avoid hi-gain preamps (e.g. CM-7777) and use a lower gain,

high overload preamp such as W-G AP-8700 (SolidSignal.com, SummitSource.com, et al.).

The overall difference in sensitivity between preamps would be small anyway....


----------



## seekermeister

I played with the antenna some, and now I pickup a couple more channels than before, including 3 digital stations, but only one of them displays. It's picture is almost as good as cable, except that the signal strength varies and when it drops low the picute and sound stutters. Analog stations are nothing to brag about in terms of picture quality, but at least they are stable.


I'm trying to determine if the problem is more with the antenna, or with the display software...I suspect both. I think that the first thing to do is to get a better antenna, but I'm still lost on how to choose the best for my circumstances.


I have also been wondering if BeyondTV works with all tuners or not? I've run into a number of things that I know are display software related.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seekermeister* /forum/post/13446846
> 
> 
> fbov and Falcon_77,
> 
> 
> I tried your website for the zip code 74112 (Oklahoma), and found it similar to one that I used at antennaweb.org, but got somewhat differing results. ...
> 
> 
> EDIT: I noticed that neither website's output was based on the type of antenna used (directional, multi-directional, analog, HDTV, etc.) and that is the main thing that I was looking for...something to base a purchase decision on.



The value of TVFool over Antennaweb is the signal estimate it calculates based on transmitter power and local topography. Just throwing in your zip, I see you should get 10-12 stations with rabbit ears/loop antennas. From your initial post, I assume you're not, and that means you may need to input your actual address.


Here's why.


I live 6.9 miles from my transmitters and I usually give TVFool the lat/long of my antenna, but street address is very close. My local testing indicates TVFool signal estimates are accurate, both for how powerful an antenna I need and relative reception, best to worst.

_*However*_, if I just put in my zip code, it's off by *30 dB*, across the board because I live in a local low spot - a 99.9% error due to inputing an inaccurate address. I suspect something similar is happening to you; perhaps it's the building (won't be estimated) or a landscape feature (will be estimated) that's reducing your signal, because small indoor antennas should work at the post office.


Since you want an antenna recommendation, I've also looked at your post-transition spectrum, which will include current digital 10, plus Ch 8. This complicates things - you need both UHF and VHF reception. One good choice that's likely to fit on your balcony and receive the stations you want is the Channel Master CM-4228, a ~$50 antenna that's a top UHF antenna and a good VHF-high choice. I'm using a clone of it's little brother (CM-4221, ~$25) and all stations are 90+ on my TV with it in the attic. Then again, if rabbit ears can get your VHF channels, a CM4221 might be all you need. Here's a link:
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4228.htm 


While this ones big (36x40) it's flat; the next best recommendation is a combo VHF/UHF that's much longer and so not well suited to your patio.


I'll also note that digital tuners can be hard to use when aiming at a weak station. You'll likely have to input the real channel and then adjust antenna direction to see if you can get a lock. If you can, there's usually a signal display you can maximize. The trick is getting that initial lock.


Hope this helps,

Frank


----------



## rca4bg26




Rick0725 said:


> The ap 8700 would be a risk in regards to overload with the stations below and the splitting arrangment described. Would rather not take the chance and select the winegard hdp269 preamp instead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have had lots of issues with the HDP-269 preamp with strong local FM stations as it has NO FM trap. Need to be aware of this for certain areas. If there is no local FM that you know of than this is a good choice, or you may have to add an external FM trap if you do have one.


----------



## bozey45

What is the sure-test to see if the 7777 is working properly???? I have a 91-XG with the 7777 and still can't pull in channel 40 analog or its digital 52 from a distance of 43 miles. From all I've heard about these two OTA products i should be able to pull at least the analog on 40. It comes in very snowy and seeing their coverage map at the FCC website their coverage area i guess its grade B goes all the way to northern Hillsborough County, just a few short miles south of us. I don't have a rotor yet but have tried the antenna in various positions, used a compass, tilted the 91-XG and still can't get channel 40 worth a crap. There has to be something amiss in this set-up and I can't figure what it is. I have RG-6 coax, all the coax is on the right inputs on the 7777, the switch is on "combined" on the 7777; the only thing this goes thru is the lightning block and that makes no difference because I bypassed that and still nothing. The 7777 really changed nothing at all on the set-up, everything looks basically the same. There is also a LP channel 30 in Tampa that I get better without the pre-amp than with and even with the pre-amp it should not overload being an LP 24 miles from here. The full power locals are perfect, digital and analog. is it the fact that I DO need a rotor or is it the 7777 OR even a lousy tuner on the set?? It's just that when i read all these postings about the 91-XG and 7777 being used all over the place pulling in stations 50-70 miles away with no problem, I feel something is amiss here. I asked in the local Tampa HDTV forum if anyone else uses the 91-XG and no replies after 3 weeks. If anyone has half a clue what the problem could be please fill me in.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/13450921
> 
> 
> I use deep notch fm barrel filters when there are fm issues prior to the antenna input of the hdp269. The fm filters in most preamps are inadequate anyways for troublsome situations.
> 
> 
> There are 3 large filter companies in town so I am lucky in that regard.
> 
> 
> About $16.



If you have no need for low band (2-6) using the high port of a hi/lo combiner also works well. About 2-3 dollars each the last I checked.
http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf


----------



## holl_ands

Antenna thread is better place for this question.

Also need you location (zipcode, preferably nearby cross streets)

Or post your Analog & Digital results from www.tvfool.com


----------



## seekermeister




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13448855
> 
> 
> The value of TVFool over Antennaweb is the signal estimate it calculates based on transmitter power and local topography. Just throwing in your zip, I see you should get 10-12 stations with rabbit ears/loop antennas. From your initial post, I assume you're not, and that means you may need to input your actual address.
> 
> 
> Here's why.
> 
> 
> I live 6.9 miles from my transmitters and I usually give TVFool the lat/long of my antenna, but street address is very close. My local testing indicates TVFool signal estimates are accurate, both for how powerful an antenna I need and relative reception, best to worst.
> 
> _*However*_, if I just put in my zip code, it's off by *30 dB*, across the board because I live in a local low spot - a 99.9% error due to inputing an inaccurate address. I suspect something similar is happening to you; perhaps it's the building (won't be estimated) or a landscape feature (will be estimated) that's reducing your signal, because small indoor antennas should work at the post office.



Actually, I ran it both ways...by zip code and by address.


> Quote:
> Since you want an antenna recommendation, I've also looked at your post-transition spectrum, which will include current digital 10, plus Ch 8. This complicates things - you need both UHF and VHF reception. One good choice that's likely to fit on your balcony and receive the stations you want is the Channel Master CM-4228, a ~$50 antenna that's a top UHF antenna and a good VHF-high choice. I'm using a clone of it's little brother (CM-4221, ~$25) and all stations are 90+ on my TV with it in the attic. Then again, if rabbit ears can get your VHF channels, a CM4221 might be all you need. Here's a link:
> http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4228.htm
> 
> 
> While this ones big (36x40) it's flat; the next best recommendation is a combo VHF/UHF that's much longer and so not well suited to your patio.



the problem with these antennas is that my apartment manager is very picky. When I discussed this with her, I was read the riot act, therefore, I want something less conspicuous.


> Quote:
> I'll also note that digital tuners can be hard to use when aiming at a weak station. You'll likely have to input the real channel and then adjust antenna direction to see if you can get a lock. If you can, there's usually a signal display you can maximize. The trick is getting that initial lock.
> 
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Frank



I have about decided that the viewing software is half of the problem, because I tried using BeyondTV, and it made alot of difference...at least during the scanning of the channels. Unfortunately, I'm having a problem getting BTV working properly.


I think that it may take both items to make things right...antenna and software. As far as the antenna goes, I have been looking at some of the small multi-directional ones, so that I won't have to readjust the antenna every time that I change the channel. Even that wouldn't be so bad if it had an electric roter, but I have seen very few such critters. I understand that this kind of antenna would have less performance than a directional antenna, but judging by what I saw on BTV's channel scanner using just my rabbit ears, it may be enough.


----------



## fbov

Re: TVFool, can I assume zip and address gave similar results?


Re: picky apartment managers, see"
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html 

"The rule applies to individuals who place antennas ... on property that they own or rent and that is within their exclusive use or control ... such as a balcony or patio ..."


OTARD - over the air reception devices - is a congressionally mandated FCC rules that defines, among others, antenna rules for renters. If you follow the rules, your apartment manager is bound by it. Better not to make an issue, however, unless truly necessary.


Re: tuners, if that's the real issue, then try a good, small or indoor antenna. You may not need much more signal. Here's a good comparison:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


Since there's a lot of information there, let me point to some highlights. The CM4228 is "A" in the UHF plot and at the top of the heap. Your rabbit ears are "J", small indoor loops (rabbit ears are a VHF antenna, "G" in the VHF plots). As you can see, there are a LOT of choices in between. The Silver Sensor (I) is an indoor antenna with a bit more gain, or you can get a small outdoor antenna and use it indoors. The CM4220 (not shown) is a 2-bay bowtie version of a 4228 array, as is the DB-2 (L). Both are similar to the Double Bowtie (K), but physically larger and so higher gain, and without legs. If used without their reflector, they become bi-directional, potentially satisfying your directional needs at the cost of much of their gain.


By the way, with a patio antenna, aren't you the rotor?


Frank


----------



## ghken

Thanks for the input so far. I didn't get a chance to play with it over the holiday weekend but will get back to it after the out of town guests leave tomorrow. I will try bypassing the preamp and see what that shows.


Here's a couple of additional points. The problems with VHF 7 started when I started swapping antennas, which required me to open up the CM7777 and switch it to the separate UHF/VHF input setting. When I noticed the drop in VHF 7 signal with the new antennnas and CM7777 configuration, I put everything back the way it was - the old RS antenna with the CM7777 switched back to combined VHF/UHF input. Signal for VHF 7 was still bad and all the various combinations I've tried since then hasn't brought it back to where it used to be.


I've always suspected the preamp to be the leading suspect, but it didn't make sense that only VHF 7 would be affected. I have two other stations broadcasting on VHF - 2 and 11 - that come in at the same level as they always have. I figured if the VHF section of the preamp was going bad then all 3 stations would be impacted.


----------



## donnyjaguar

Hi folks, I just thought I'd share this latest monsterpiece I built.
http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u...t=e051b622.pbw 

Its a remote switch to take my UHF preamplifier out of the loop and also has a switchable 20dB attenuator on the input from the antenna. Too cold to install just yet, but works fine in the workshop. I'm optimistic this will lend another level of versatility to my OTA setup.


I got the idea from my DISEqC switch on my satellite system.


DJ


----------



## b1gmoose

I know CM makes a UHF only 75 ohm pre-amp, but they do not have any 300 ohm input UHF only pre-amps.


Does anybody know of a source for UHF only 300 ohm pre-amps / amplifying baluns?


Thanks,


~ryan


----------



## fbov

ghken,

As I now understand it, you upgraded from the RS VU-75 combo to a YA1713 and CM4221 and had to switch the 7777 to use both UHF and VHF inputs. At that point, you noticed Ch 7 WOOD-DT signal had dropped (the opposite of your expectation) so you put everything back, but WOOD-DT was still weak.


Process of elimination would say you did something to the pre-amp at the initial changeover. The bypass test should tell for sure. Just guessing, but how's the FM trap set?


Frank


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *donnyjaguar* /forum/post/13456987
> 
> 
> Hi folks, I just thought I'd share this latest monsterpiece I built.
> http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u...t=e051b622.pbw
> 
> Its a remote switch to take my UHF preamplifier out of the loop and also has a switchable 20dB attenuator on the input from the antenna. Too cold to install just yet, but works fine in the workshop. I'm optimistic this will lend another level of versatility to my OTA setup.
> 
> 
> I got the idea from my DISEqC switch on my satellite system.
> 
> 
> DJ



Your workshop test.....did it include the antenna being hooked up and reception with a TV? I'm curious because at UHF frequencies, subtle issues like the routing of wires can affect operation. Also....I look and look at the photos, but just cant seem to see the vacuum tubes that are in the first schematic! ;-)


----------



## seekermeister




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13456518
> 
> 
> Re: TVFool, can I assume zip and address gave similar results?



Yes.


> Quote:
> Re: picky apartment managers, see"
> http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html
> 
> "The rule applies to individuals who place antennas ... on property that they own or rent and that is within their exclusive use or control ... such as a balcony or patio ..."
> 
> 
> OTARD - over the air reception devices - is a congressionally mandated FCC rules that defines, among others, antenna rules for renters. If you follow the rules, your apartment manager is bound by it. Better not to make an issue, however, unless truly necessary.



I agree about not making an issue of it, but that OTARD link is interesting. One thing that I remember when discussing this with the apt. manager, is that they require proof of insurance, naming them, so that if someone gets injured by flying or falling antennas, they are covered. somehow, I think that might fall under the OTARD provision for unreasonable expense.


> Quote:
> Re: tuners, if that's the real issue, then try a good, small or indoor antenna. You may not need much more signal. Here's a good comparison:
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html



The reason that I'm wanting an ourdoor antenna is because when I place the rabbit ears outside on the patio table there is a significant improvement. I think that there is something about the construction of the unit that is interfering with reception.


> Quote:
> Since there's a lot of information there, let me point to some highlights. The CM4228 is "A" in the UHF plot and at the top of the heap. Your rabbit ears are "J", small indoor loops (rabbit ears are a VHF antenna, "G" in the VHF plots). As you can see, there are a LOT of choices in between. The Silver Sensor (I) is an indoor antenna with a bit more gain, or you can get a small outdoor antenna and use it indoors. The CM4220 (not shown) is a 2-bay bowtie version of a 4228 array, as is the DB-2 (L). Both are similar to the Double Bowtie (K), but physically larger and so higher gain, and without legs. If used without their reflector, they become bi-directional, potentially satisfying your directional needs at the cost of much of their gain.



Aren't some of the small multi-directional anatennas an improvement over the rabbit ears? Radio Shack and one other company have ones that look like large frisbees. Some others that I have seen look like plastic pipes...are these any good?


> Quote:
> By the way, with a patio antenna, aren't you the rotor?



I suppose that would be true with most people, but I'm lazy.


----------



## ghken




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13458373
> 
> 
> ghken,
> 
> 
> Process of elimination would say you did something to the pre-amp at the initial changeover. The bypass test should tell for sure. Just guessing, but how's the FM trap set?
> 
> 
> Frank



Frank, yes you understand my situation correctly.


I believe the CM7777 ships with the FM trap engaged, so that's how I had it when it was first installed with the RS antenna. When I was switching over to the Winegard/CM antennas, I did switch the FM trap off, thinking I might try using the antenna with my stereo tuner. I have since switched it back on and neither setting appears to noticeably change the signal level on VHF 7.


----------



## donnyjaguar

Hey Bozey, you may have the same problem I do. I'm getting sacked by the "local" stations at 23 miles making my more distant stations impossible to get. I think I found the solution, posted on the other thread, but its not for everyone.


----------



## RadicalRik

I connected a Philips DVDR-3575H/37 with it's ATSC internal tuner.

I can now receive most all of the digital channels and have an idea of reception quality which is pretty impressive for my 15 - 20 year-old *RS-VU-110 Yagi combo...

*to be replaced as soon as new antenna system is decided.


However, during installation of this component, I found that I am handicapping my already old and shabby antenna system with a 5-way splitter (or 4-way depending on how the antenna input is counted). That is, behind the TV is an RS gold splitter with antenna and 4 outputs. The unused one has a dummy load.


I currently feed and will continue to feed (2) TVs with my antenna (old and new). The splitter fed my TV, VCR and kitchen TV. The lead to the kitchen runs all the way from the back of my TV back to the basement and up to the kitchen. The splitter would be better in the basement in the spot where the cables could divide to come up to each TV (instead of doubling back for the kitchen TV).


Someone suggested to me perhaps a Channel Master "distribution amplifier" in the basement instead of a smaller 2-way splitter (downsized from my 4-5-way).

The antenna downlead would feed into the distribution amp, the off to each TV.


Is that a better solution for feeding two TVs off one antenna and cutting loss?


----------



## bozey45

Which thread are you referring to??


----------



## The Hound

I'm sure someone else will speak up but, if you don't have to use an amplifer don't.

By going from 4way to 2 way splitter you've doubled the signal you had.

This may be enough.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seekermeister* /forum/post/13460342
> 
> 
> ... The reason that I'm wanting an ourdoor antenna is because when I place the rabbit ears outside on the patio table there is a significant improvement. I think that there is something about the construction of the unit that is interfering with reception.
> 
> 
> Aren't some of the small multi-directional anatennas an improvement over the rabbit ears? Radio Shack and one other company have ones that look like large frisbees. Some others that I have seen look like plastic pipes...are these any good? ...



Buildings are bad for reception. For comparison, I've attached a link showing relative gain, outdoors and in an attic (not my work). Note the 15-20 dB loss. YMMV, but buildings are bad for reception, thus my initial question if your balcony faces any of the transmitter locations. I'd assumed it didn't, thus the big antenna recommended.


Antennas, while horribly complex at the detailed level, are pretty simple to first order. Since there's no free lunch, the only way to get gain - increase antenna output - is to become directional. Here's another HDTVPrimer link
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/types.html 


While he uses "radiate" in place of "receive," they are equivalent.


Antenna geometry drives much of gain and beam width. He describes the difference between an isotropic and a dipole antenna, since it's a simple change and both isotropic and dipoles are used as a basis for comparison. The comparison link shows dBi (i for isotropic) on the left and dBd (d for dipole) on the right. That difference is worth +2.16 dB, a gain increase, and suddenly you have dead spots (nulls) you can aim at interfering stations just as you'd aim a gain peak at one you wanted.


Note that the dipole is still omni-directional in the plane perpendicular to the elements - its elevation plot is circular. That's wasted gain, unless you want TV from airplanes and your downstairs neighbor. 2-bay dipoles retain the directional (L/R) profile of the dipole but with increased gain due to a flatter elevation plot. A 4-bay gets even flatter - these bays stack vertically, so it's the vertical pattern (elevation plot) that changes. You can see the effect clearly in the links below - same directional pattern, very different elevation. Free gain, so to speak, by reducing gain in the vertical directions you can't use.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB2.html 
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB4.html 


Some of the highest gain antennas availalble carry this one step further by adding a reflector - the large screen you see behind all the commercial multi-bay dipole antennas. This is what gives the commercial gain plots the characteristic directional shape you see at the bottom of the antenna types link, and in the DB2 and DB4 links above.


Here's a secret - you can take off the reflector. Now you're back to the fat-figure-8 dipole directional profile with it's two sharp nulls separating broad gain peaks.


I checked your TVFool plot and you do have strong stations 90 degrees apart; KGEB/KTPX are almost as strong as, but 90 degrees separated from your best stations. To get both groups, you'd aim inbetween; if one interfered with another, you'd aim the peak at one and the null at the other.


Two other neat things:

- the reflector is the most visible part, so removing it makes the antenna hard to see. (The flip side is that the dipole elements are an eye hazard.)

- You can test it for the price of 4 coat hangers and a 2x4.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798265 

(NOTE: this is a UHF-high design; increase 7" dipole spacings and wiskers to 9" for best reception of channels 14-52.)


Bottom line:

Omni-antennas have lower gain. If your balcony faces the transmitters, they'll work well, but so would a cheap directional. If your balcony faces away from the transmitters, omni's may not have the gain to receive through the building. A reflector-less 2- or (better yet) 4-bay dipole/bowtie would likely do as well.


I should mention the smart antenna. It uses multiple small antennas to synthesize a single, higher-gain antenna whose aim can be adjusted by the controller. You would need a compatible tuner, and can find out more - holl_ands just summarized a couple years' work.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post13461020 


Frank


Where's the attachment you ask? So do I!


----------



## fbov

Quote:

Originally Posted by *fbov* 
... Where's the attachment you ask? So do I!
Here it is.

 

2004-12-11 testing attic antenna performance v03.pdf 129.5986328125k . file


----------



## seekermeister

fbov,


After reading a comment earlier in this thread, I got to thinking that I could improve the signal strength to the tuner by disconnecting the TV and DVD player from the antenna. I had tried adding an amplifier, even though the rabbit ears are amplified, but instead of helping, the reception got worse...I don't really understand that.


In reference to your question regarding the direction that my patio faces, it is West, so the building only gets in the way of signals coming from the Eastern directions.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seekermeister* /forum/post/13468494
> 
> 
> fbov,
> 
> 
> After reading a comment earlier in this thread, I got to thinking that I could improve the signal strength to the tuner by disconnecting the TV and DVD player from the antenna. I had tried adding an amplifier, even though the rabbit ears are amplified, but instead of helping, the reception got worse...I don't really understand that.
> 
> 
> In reference to your question regarding the direction that my patio faces, it is West, so the building only gets in the way of signals coming from the Eastern directions.



You're thinking in the right direction; we should have asked ... I'd assumed the antenna went straight to the tuner, which is not always the case. What do you get with only the tuner loading down the ears? Do you see any difference with the amp on/off (is it helping)?


A second (distribution) amplifier is not needed unless you have a long cable run or split the signal to many devices; you may have been overloading the tuner, or if you used a second pre-amp, overloading the second amp's inputs.


If your patio faces due West, 270*, an antenna on the railing (no overhang) might have line of sight (LOS) from about 190* to 350*. You'd have a chance at KGEB and KTPX LOS at 220*,but the majority are at 124*, so you're either receiving through the building (same as indoors), or catching reflections from farther downstream.


If you actually face SSW you'd be LOS to both. If you actually face NW, the buildings in the way for all of them. The true orientation matters, but based on your reports, I'm betting you really do get most stations through the building. No point in going outside if that's the case; a closet will do.


One last suggestion, then: Make a 4-bay coat-hanger bow-tie.


I suggested it in the last post, and referenced the link. I don't recommend the blogspot design without the stretch to 9", but this is very close to what's in my _attic_ receiving signals (-70 to -78dBm) that are 30dB _weaker_ than you get from the 124* antenna farm (-40 to -46 dBm).


----------



## donnyjaguar

See Official AVS Antenna Topic near the bottom.


----------



## RadicalRik




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/13449562
> 
> 
> You can use your current antenna for vhf and add a yagi style uhf antenna like a 91xg, mount them on a 5' mast spaced about 3.5' apart, combine the antennas with a pico uvsj vhf/uhf combiner then amplify with the hdp269. will cost you less than $100.



Most of my channels are in the UHF range and only 2 are in the VHF.

If separate VHF & UHF antennas are used instead of a "combo" then must the UHF be mounted above or below the VHF?


If the 2 VHF stations are in the same (magnetic) compass direction, then the VHF antenna can be aimed for best reception and no rotor is necessary.


However, if the bulk of the stations in UHF range are more spread out on the compass and even perhaps behind the antenna's directed aim.


Would it then be better to use an antenna such as a Channel Master CM4228 rather than an LX9 "corner Yagi"? Some antennas receive from a wider range of directions that others. The corner Yagi with the rear reflector keeps signals from the rear, if I read it right. A flat Yagi with it's elements is more directional than and array antenna? This part falls into the "beam width" of an antenna I suppose.


It would be nice to receive all of the channels (limited as they are) without a rotor.

A UHF that pulls in the "60 miles" (I know that claim means little or nothing) that receives from multi-directions versus an antenna that receives primarily what it is aimed at. I suppose I wondering if a CM4228 will pull in UHF stations the same distance as the LX9 but from a wider compass width?


----------



## TuxBobble

Sorry for posting so many questions but I have one more...


I had asked before how I would go about hooking up an antenna in addition to a cable box, etc. to my TV that has only one coax input. I just saw something advertised for a coax splitter, however, that makes me curious--the splitter's advertisement lists under its "features":


"Versatile element: This splitter can split a signal from one antenna to two TVs or VCRs, or it can combine signals from two antennae to one lead-in."


So I was wondering--does this mean that I could hook this up in reverse, so that instead of splitting a cable signal to 2 TVs, I could combine the cable and antenna signal to one TV? That's what it sounds like to me but I wanted to know if anyone's aware of if it works, and how effective it would be?


Just to point out, I can't hook up my coax TV connection any other way because I'm in a dorm room, and thus there's no cable "box" just a jack in the wall to hook the TVs up to. Otherwise I'd just use a component hookup for that. Thanks for the help, yet again.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TuxBobble* /forum/post/13488957
> 
> 
> does this mean that I could hook this up in reverse, so that instead of splitting a cable signal to 2 TVs, I could combine the cable and antenna signal to one TV?



Yes, you can use a splitter in reverse as a combiner. But, the problem with your installation is you would be combining cable and antenna, both of which would be using the same frequencies so it would be impossible to tune in OTA channel 13, for example, because there would be a cable channel 13 there. And, the OTA channel would likely cause problems with the cable channels as well, so you would loose the signal from both in a lot of cases.


So, bottom line is, it won't work.


----------



## hdtvluvr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TuxBobble* /forum/post/13488957
> 
> 
> Sorry for posting so many questions but I have one more...
> 
> 
> I had asked before how I would go about hooking up an antenna in addition to a cable box, etc. to my TV that has only one coax input.



You need something like:

http://www.amazon.com/Parts-Express-.../dp/B0002ZPIQ4 


You should be able to get it at Radio Shack.


It isn't automatic but it will do what you need it to do.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RadicalRik* /forum/post/13480125
> 
> 
> It would be nice to receive all of the channels (limited as they are) without a rotor.
> 
> A UHF that pulls in the "60 miles" (I know that claim means little or nothing) that receives from multi-directions versus an antenna that receives primarily what it is aimed at. I suppose I wondering if a CM4228 will pull in UHF stations the same distance as the LX9 but from a wider compass width?



Beamwidth typically narrows as forward gain increases. F/B ratio also increases in general with increasing forward gain and narrower beamwidth. There is no free lunch in other words. A better performing antenna for long distances will necessarily also have narrower beamwidth.


The 4228 is a very directional antenna.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/13499770
> 
> 
> Beamwidth typically narrows as forward gain increases. F/B ratio also increases in general with increasing forward gain and narrower beamwidth. There is no free lunch in other words. A better performing antenna for long distances will necessarily also have narrower beamwidth.
> 
> 
> The 4228 is a very directional antenna.



Antenna beam-width is often simplified to only represent the azimuth plane, but the elevation plane needs to be considered as well.


For instance, the 4221 4-bay and the 4228 8-bay both have similar elevation beam-widths, but the azimuth beam-width on the 4228 is much narrower, due to how it's configured. It makes me wonder how a 2 vertical stack 4221 would perform.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/13501118
> 
> 
> Antenna beam-width is often simplified to only represent the azimuth plane, but the elevation plane needs to be considered as well. ...



I've made 2 4221-clones and planned to shorted their spines to make a cleaner 8-bay. Maybe I should retain enough spine length to align them stacked. In theory, you're right that the stacked aperture should have the tight elevation pattern of a stacked 16-bay
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/16bay.html 

while retaining the broad azimuth pattern of a 4221.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4221.html 


Unfortunately, I'm at least a couple weeks away from trying anything; still waiting for my coupon ...


Frank


----------



## seekermeister

After pondering and shopping a bit, I found a Radio Shack antenna that falls within my budget and space/location limitations, but from the reviews, I'm not sure that it would be a good choice. The most common cons were that it was flimsy and didn't last too long. Outside of weather/environmental factors, what makes an antenna last or not last? For something without any moving parts and simple design, it would seem that they should last forever, but with only a 90 day warranty, I'm sure that isn't true. At least it is directional, which everybody says is better, but would it still be so if set in the horzontal plane?

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...t&tab=features


----------



## fbov

Somewhere I've seen that antenna with the cover off, but I can't find the link. It's basically a dipole with some very creative element contouring, like a cross between a fractal diagram and a martial arts throwing disc. The only knock has been reliability; cheap electronics don't last in harsh environments. Judging by my Sears garage door opener, my garage is a harsh environment.


One thing, since it is directional, follow the install instructions. I bet a good fraction of purchasers miss that, aim it straight up, like many omni-domes, and wonder why it doesn't work.


----------



## seekermeister

fbov,


When you spoke about reliability, was that about this particular antenna, or just electronics in general? I had just about decided to mount the antenna indoors, because I assumed that the remarks that I read about it being flimsy had to do with it standing up in the wind. If it is strong enough to receive good signals indoors, that seems the way to go. The problem with that is that if it is attached to a wall, then it's direction can't be changed much, and since it is not bidirectional I will have to pick a wall that faces most of the channels, but not all.


----------



## fbov

I was making a general comment. I have no experience with this product.


Mounting indoors should increase it's lifespan, regardless. It comes with mast mounting hardware, so it's intended for a pole or J-mount. A wall mount would be fine as long as it was hinged, like a cabinet door; you will need to aim it. If you buy, try it out before installing; many times, antennas aren't returnable if they've been installed.


----------



## RadicalRik

Thanks cpcat, Falcon_77 & fbov -

I have been spending a lot of time on the hdtvprimer site and reading about the different antennas and beamwidth etc...


In my situation for the Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA broadcast channels and their allotted channel frequencies, there are NOT many happy campers with what has been settled on.

Our PBS station [WBRA 15] will be assigned channel 3 which is low VHF. Our ABC station [WSET 13] will move back from UHF 34 to 13 post Feb 2009. That will leave us with two VHF channels and one of them low. The rest will remain broadcasting their digital in the UHF range.


According to TVfool using my longitude/latitude, my farthest station is in the 42 mile range (as are several others) up on one of the Blueridge Mountains.


I'm in sort of a valley (or downhill) if I'm standing on the front porch facing west. That is the direction of the mountains where the antennas are located and to which my TV antenna faces.


At my distance from the transmitters, VHF seems settled. Currently, I have a Radio Shack VU-110XR that is a combo VHF/UHF antenna with 10 elements (5-dipoles) and the corner yagi - 100" boom length @ 25ft.


I suppose the only decision left is for a UHF antenna... I notice that on both the CM4228 and the XG9, both have the ability to be aimed at the "skyline" On my current 'combo' antenna, the UHF is parallel to the ground (along with the VHF) at the house aiming at the center of the uphill grade.


My question concerns using a separate UHF antenna and aiming it at the skyline/horizon mounted 3.5' above a VHF antenna on the mast. Is this advisable?


I'm probably going to install a new rotor to replace my third frozen one that is currently up there because there is "no free lunch"


However, I am not antenna savvy enough to figure out which type of UHF antenna is the best choice: the CM4228 bowtie 8-bay array? OR the XG9 corner yagi? Angling either towards the skyline and rotating them, which would result in improved reception?


Azimuth and elevation beamwidths start to rise above my technical understanding... I had half-wave 80 & 40 meter dipoles in my HF amateur radio days and a vertical for everything above, but never the tower with the element yagis and loops and all...

I suppose that if i were able-bodied, I would experiment by building crude types of both and trying them out.


----------



## cpcat

The xg91 and 4228 are pretty close overall for uhf. The main difference is that the 4228 will be much greater wind load and stress on your rotator. Decision made IMO. Put the xg91 or another equivalent yagi/corner reflector on the rotator above your vhf antenna.


----------



## seekermeister




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13506584
> 
> 
> I was making a general comment. I have no experience with this product.
> 
> 
> Mounting indoors should increase it's lifespan, regardless. It comes with mast mounting hardware, so it's intended for a pole or J-mount. A wall mount would be fine as long as it was hinged, like a cabinet door; you will need to aim it. If you buy, try it out before installing; many times, antennas aren't returnable if they've been installed.



Since my last post, I ran over to the Radio Shack and bought it, but it is not the same as I had seen before. It is considerably thicker and heavier. The mounting hardware include a short mast which is bent at about 40 degrees and attaches to the base with a swivel of about 80 degrees. When I mentioned this to the saleman, he said that it was an older type, but I got the impression that he really didn't know anything about it.


As you suggested, I'm in the process of trying it out now, but I'm not having much luck with it. Although it is picking up more analog channels, it hasn't found but one digital channel, and that one isn't displaying. I vaguely recall reading a comment in a customer's review about locating the amplifier at least 6 feet from the antenna, but that means that I'm going to need another cable. What bothers me most, is that with either the rabbit ears or this dish, none of the channels...analog or digital are coming in with color...just B&W. I'm not sure if that is becaise of the antenna, tuner or software?


----------



## RadicalRik




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/13506960
> 
> 
> The xg91 and 4228 are pretty close overall for uhf. The main difference is that the 4228 will be much greater wind load and stress on your rotator. Decision made IMO. Put the xg91 or another equivalent yagi/corner reflector on the rotator above your vhf antenna.



Thank you cpcat! I needed that. I have been reading several pages back that some are not very happy with the XG91's quality (or rust and poor construction), but I suppose in I go with a Winegard VHF, I can also find a UHF that is the equivilent.


I was told that they need to be 3.5' apart (above/below). Can the rotor go below and rotate both?


The whole problem with my situation is the blasted VHF channels! I keep reading articles that the HDTV may all end up in the UHF range eventually even if they seem to have it all settled right now where they're going to land.


I appreciate your help. Perhaps, I should wait for a period and see how things settle...or the old RS-VU-110 falls down...


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RadicalRik* /forum/post/13507037
> 
> 
> Thank you cpcat! I needed that. I have been reading several pages back that some are not very happy with the XG91's quality (or rust and poor construction), but I suppose in I go with a Winegard VHF, I can also find a UHF that is the equivilent.
> 
> 
> I was told that they need to be 3.5' apart (above/below). Can the rotor go below and rotate both?
> 
> 
> The whole problem with my situation is the blasted VHF channels! I keep reading articles that the HDTV may all end up in the UHF range eventually even if they seem to have it all settled right now where they're going to land.
> 
> 
> I appreciate your help. Perhaps, I should wait for a period and see how things settle...or the old RS-VU-110 falls down...



You can aim the vhf independently from the uhf. Are the low and high vhf channels in different directions? If so, you might separate further using a lo/hi combiner allowing independent lo vhf and hi vhf antennas. Alternatively, you could rotate both the RS combo and the xg91 but again more stress on the rotator. If the lo/hi vhf channels are in the same location then just rotate the uhf.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RadicalRik* /forum/post/13507037
> 
> 
> The whole problem with my situation is the blasted VHF channels! I keep reading articles that the HDTV may all end up in the UHF range eventually even if they seem to have it all settled right now where they're going to land.



WHERE have you read an article saying DTV may quit VHF band????


The only thing I have heard is a proposal to extend FM band to CH6 and

maybe also CH5...which NAB will fight vigorously for many years to come:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0015/t.10139.html 


In the L.A. thread, I SPECULATED that if NAB/MSTV are successful in beating

back White Space Devices (WSD) throughout the TV bands, the WSD guys

(Google, Microsoft, et.al.) may also make a run on the LOW VHF channels (CH2-6),

which are well suited for IP based protocols that can work through impulse noise.

[Why pay for 700-MHz channel, when they think they can use TV band for FREE....]


That would be a big shock to 43+ Lo-VHF and 427+ Hi-VHF Full Power broadcasters

(out of 1,400+ total) who have spent many megabucks for a "temporary"

UHF DTV station that must now be shut down as they spend megabucks to

upgrade their old VHF transmitter for DTV:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0001/t.1158.html# 

BTW: This does NOT include statistics for more than 7,000 Repeaters & Low Power

transmitters who are not yet mandated to switch to DTV.....


----------



## RadicalRik




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/13507611
> 
> 
> You can aim the vhf independently from the uhf. Are the low and high vhf channels in different directions? If so, you might separate further using a lo/hi combiner allowing independent lo vhf and hi vhf antennas. Alternatively, you could rotate both the RS combo and the xg91 but again more stress on the rotator. If the lo/hi vhf channels are in the same location then just rotate the uhf.



Channel 3 (PBS) [VHF-low] from my Long/Lat 'ground-zero' is 19.1 mi. @ mag compass 286 deg.


Channnel 13 (ABC) [VHF-high] from my Long/Lat 'ground zero' is 42.1 mi @ mag compass 326 deg.


Not the same locations, but not too far apart? Not quite like one is behind me.


These (2) channels only remain VHS. Really cruddy how they're at opposite ends of the frequency spectrum huh? Would be nice to have been able to get either a VHF-low or VHF-high only antenna. A lot of complaints on the Roanoke/Lynchburg VA forum regarding Channel 15 (PBS) analog having to move down to 3 for their digital transmission....interference bigtime or no signal at all in digital, when they receive the analog 15 just fine.


All the rest: CBS, NBC, FOX, ION are all at the same location and distance as Channel 3 PBS. That is the antenna farm on Poor Mountain in the Blueridge for most Roanoke Stations. WSET 13 (ABC) is a Lynchburg station on Thaxton mountain.


I agree about stress on the rotor. If it were a case of VHF-high-only and UHF, there would be no problem... I may just have to go with another combo.

The RS-VU-110 does have to be replaced. It's 15+ years up there and I get effects and distortions from wind or rain or fog that I've never had. Channel 13 goes all rainbow on me and has been a ghosty analog station from the get-go...(not it's DT transmission though).

The RS-VU-110 has 10 VHF elements (or 5 dipoles) angled forward V-type and a corner yagi at the front.

Perhaps another combo from Winegard about the same length and elements, (only the straight elements)...perhaps slightly longer..


----------



## RadicalRik




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13507875
> 
> 
> WHERE have you read an article saying DTV may quit VHF band????
> 
> 
> The only thing I have heard is a proposal to extend FM band to CH6 and
> 
> maybe also CH5...which NAB will fight vigorously for many years to come:
> http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0015/t.10139.html
> 
> 
> In the L.A. thread, I SPECULATED that if NAB/MSTV are successful in beating
> 
> back White Space Devices (WSD) throughout the TV bands, the WSD guys
> 
> (Google, Microsoft, et.al.) may also make a run on the LOW VHF channels (CH2-6),
> 
> which are well suited for IP based protocols that can work through impulse noise.
> 
> [Why pay for 700-MHz channel, when they think they can use TV band for FREE....]
> 
> 
> That would be a big shock to 43+ Lo-VHF and 427+ Hi-VHF Full Power broadcasters
> 
> (out of 1,400+ total) who have spent many megabucks for a "temporary"
> 
> UHF DTV station that must now be shut down as they spend megabucks to
> 
> upgrade their old VHF transmitter for DTV:
> http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0001/t.1158.html#
> 
> BTW: This does NOT include statistics for more than 7,000 Repeaters & Low Power
> 
> transmitters who are not yet mandated to switch to DTV.....



I read a tech article on Google news awhile back about going digital for better or worse. It talked first about analog cell phones like my old emergency Motorola. Then, it talked about DTV and how the top guns were lusting after frequency spectrum for Homeland security and other needed purposes...blah blah blah...and pushing the powers that be to make immediate chage-over to all-digital before Feb 2009 in some areas. [That prompted me to order my coupons too early and they expire by May 29]


I read this while at the Wingard antenna site:


"The modulation system currently being used for DTV in the United States is Eight Level Vestigial Sideband (8VSB). As Terrestrial Digital / HDTV broadcasts become more prominent, UHF antennas will play a larger role because the majority of the HDTV/Digital channel allocations will be in the UHF frequency band."


I was overstating DTV. They seem to be indicting HDTV will want to be in UHF range. I must have focused on "majority"


I'm sorry if I mislead or got it wrong. I'm learning as I go and read. That is why I come here to be set straight on all things AVS


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RadicalRik* /forum/post/13508498
> 
> 
> Channel 3 (PBS) [VHF-low] from my Long/Lat 'ground-zero' is 19.1 mi. @ mag compass 286 deg.
> 
> 
> Channnel 13 (ABC) [VHF-high] from my Long/Lat 'ground zero' is 42.1 mi @ mag compass 326 deg.
> 
> 
> Not the same locations, but not too far apart? Not quite like one is behind me.
> 
> 
> .



Channel 3 is close to you and will be wider bandwidth reception typically. I bet you'll be ok aiming for 13 or just a shade to the left. Wait and see then make a change if necessary.


----------



## RadicalRik




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/13508608
> 
> 
> Channel 3 is close to you and will be wider bandwidth reception typically. I bet you'll be ok aiming for 13 or just a shade to the left. Wait and see then make a change if necessary.



I agree and thank you. I can wait awhile. I'm doing my research now, to then make my decisions, then my purchases of equipment and accessories, so that when work starts outside on the house and ladders are up, I'll have my antenna package ready to put up. It's easier when they're already up there painting the roof or scraping the side house for painting...


If PBS on 3 gets too much interference or lack of reception, complaints from those who receive fine analog, but no digital etc... they may have to move somewhere up the band if they're alowed. Everything else is between 13 & 36


I don't see anything on 15 for DTV. Too bad they could not just stay there at 15...though I don't know enough to answer the "why not" question.


----------



## holl_ands

With most VHF channels already being allocated to Analog, currently most

(but certainly not all) DTV stations were forced to operate in the UHF band.


There are only 12 VHF and 56 UHF channels, (shrinking to 38 UHF Post-Feb2009).

So by sheer force of numbers, most DTV stations will continue to operate in UHF band.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RadicalRik* /forum/post/13508728
> 
> 
> Everything else is between 13 & 36
> 
> 
> .



If you truly only need uhf 14-36 then I've the perfect antenna for you:

http://cpc.farnell.com/AP00620/aeria...u=TRIAX-108791 


It will outperform both the 4228 and the xg91 by a fair margin for channels 14-36 and will only be slightly more stress on the rotator vs the xg91.


There's some hassle/added expense with the overseas shipping etc. but worth it IMO. You need to order over the phone. You may also be able to find North American sources for band-specific antennas. Check here: http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/UHF%20Antennas.pdf 


I can personally recommend the Triax. I have no experience with the Wade CYD series.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seekermeister* /forum/post/13507017
> 
> 
> Since my last post, I ran over to the Radio Shack and bought it, but it is not the same as I had seen before. It is considerably thicker and heavier. The mounting hardware include a short mast which is bent at about 40 degrees and attaches to the base with a swivel of about 80 degrees. When I mentioned this to the saleman, he said that it was an older type, but I got the impression that he really didn't know anything about it.
> 
> 
> As you suggested, I'm in the process of trying it out now, but I'm not having much luck with it. Although it is picking up more analog channels, it hasn't found but one digital channel, and that one isn't displaying. I vaguely recall reading a comment in a customer's review about locating the amplifier at least 6 feet from the antenna, but that means that I'm going to need another cable. What bothers me most, is that with either the rabbit ears or this dish, none of the channels...analog or digital are coming in with color...just B&W. I'm not sure if that is becaise of the antenna, tuner or software?



That short mast with a bend is the J-mount. It should allow you to mount to a number of locations and still aim.


The amplifier should be integrated into the unit; the box on the antenna line is a power supply, sending DC power to the amp through the coax. Its distance to the antenna doesn't matter under 100 yards. I'm assuming the coax plugs right into the antenna.


Let me do a quick checklist of what I guess you did to set this up.

- amp plugged in to AC

- coax line from amp to TV

- coax line from amp to antenna (both as labeled)

- antenna mounted vertically, like a pie plate on the wall

- antenna aimed roughly toward transmitter through minimal obstruction (window?)

- tuner set to known,strong digital channel in that direction

- antenna aim fine-adjusted to get a picture.


Comparisons with rabbit ears are useful. If it's not a lot better, exchange it (could be a malfunctioning unit);if it's still not better than $7 rabbit ears, return it.


As to B/W reception, the only reason I can see is if they're showing reruns of early Mayberry RFD or the original Outer Limits. The latter's opening sequence might mislead you initially ...


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seekermeister* /forum/post/13507017
> 
> 
> none of the channels...analog or digital are coming in with color...just B&W. I'm not sure if that is becaise of the antenna, tuner or software?



Well, I've been receiving OTA from my fringe location for about 35 years now, and in the old days I used to have such a weak signal on occasion that I would get a very snowy picture with no color. With analog, the chroma part of the picture is on a slightly different frequency from the luminance, and the color required a considerably stronger signal than the B&W luminance. But digital doesn't work that way. I'm still receiving those distant stations now in the digital age, and when the signal is too weak (as it often is here), the picture pixelates (but still in color), or the screen is just blank. Maybe it's what fbov said.


----------



## TalkingRat

You might try an old-fashioned free solution and see if that helps, since you aren't too far from the signal. I'm 14.4 miles from my stations, 1 edge. I just cancelled cable tv and while I figure all this out, I made a coathanger antenna which picks up channels 8+ fine. On analog currently I have 2 and 6, and when I get my converter I will have channel 4 digital until after the transition.


So I threw together a dipole antenna from old antenna wire, optimized to channel 4 (83"). I just split the wire down the middle until I got the right length, left it insulated except it had wire connectors on the ends already. I taped it to the back of a strip of painted 3/4" trim, which I tacked with a single finishing nail under my window, on a wall at approximate 90 degrees to the towers. It blends in with the window trim. I used really old balun and splitter/combiner, and the signal is crystal clear; unlike rabbit ears, it requires no adjustment. I waved the stick around a bit before I settled on a position. Currently upper VHF is 8,10,12 and those will be digital in 2009, but the coathanger antenna starts pulling in at channel 8, so I'm covered. Getting an antenna installed in 2009 may mean a bit of a wait, but towers and power are still moving targets, so I thought I'd wait and see. Here's the chart I used for wire length. My ~83" for my digital channel 4 solution picks up 2 and 6 analog, and helps out channel 8 a bit as well. After the transition, I may shorten it up a bit if I need help with 8/10/12.

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html


----------



## RadicalRik




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TalkingRat* /forum/post/13512960
> 
> 
> You might try an old-fashioned free solution and see if that helps, since you aren't too far from the signal. I'm 14.4 miles from my stations, 1 edge. I just cancelled cable tv and while I figure all this out, I made a coathanger antenna which picks up channels 8+ fine. On analog currently I have 2 and 6, and when I get my converter I will have channel 4 digital until after the transition.
> 
> 
> So I threw together a dipole antenna from old antenna wire, optimized to channel 4 (83"). I just split the wire down the middle until I got the right length, left it insulated except it had wire connectors on the ends already. I taped it to the back of a strip of painted 3/4" trim, which I tacked with a single finishing nail under my window, on a wall at approximate 90 degrees to the towers. It blends in with the window trim. I used really old balun and splitter/combiner, and the signal is crystal clear; unlike rabbit ears, it requires no adjustment. I waved the stick around a bit before I settled on a position. Currently upper VHF is 8,10,12 and those will be digital in 2009, but the coathanger antenna starts pulling in at channel 8, so I'm covered. Getting an antenna installed in 2009 may mean a bit of a wait, but towers and power are still moving targets, so I thought I'd wait and see. Here's the chart I used for wire length. My ~83" for my digital channel 4 solution picks up 2 and 6 analog, and helps out channel 8 a bit as well. After the transition, I may shorten it up a bit if I need help with 8/10/12.
> 
> http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html



If a person wanted to make a 1/2-wave dipole for channel 3 only and add perhaps a director and reflector (or two) is there a chart for the length of the aditional elements and haw far forward and behind the should be located?


I've seen antennas made with 1/2" PVC. The PVC is cut to length for either side of the dipole (cap for the ends), then a length of mast cut and a T fitting. Down the mast is fed 300 ohm "twin-lead" that is connected to either side of the dipole inside the T and then glued. At the bottom where the twin comes out the balun is connected to the twin lead and coax connected to that. Some have run a pieces of coax as the dipole arms inside the PVC and the shield (only) was used as the antenna.


I was wondering if a person had an old existing antenna and cut one pair of elements to channel 3 used as the active elements/ dipole, then left a pair of elements ahead and behind (director/reflector) and sawed off the rest of the front and rear of the mast... Would that make a good channel 3 only antenna?

The length of the reflector and director elements would need to be knoow though.


----------



## TalkingRat

I'll have to leave your question to the smart antenna people around here. For channel 3, 91%(to correct for end effect) of 1/2 wave is 92" according to that link. But I don't know if it applies to antennas, or they have some way of combining length so you don't need the full half wave in one long rod. I guess I'll learn that if I stick around here.


----------



## holl_ands

Folded Dipole with Reflector and (optional) Director elements:
http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html 

After cutting the elements to proper length using chosen

wire sizes, you may need to tweak spacing to optimize gain.


Higher gain Yagi-Uda Antennas only cover a limited bandwidth,

about 1 channel in Lo-VHF, 3 channels in Hi-VHF and about

8-12 channels in UHF band. More info:
http://www.skyscan.ca/Antennas.htm 
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/diy-yagi/ 
http://personal.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Pers...s/yagiuda.html 

Be sure to read the ending paragraph in the above link.


----------



## ghken

Here's a followup on a problem I reported last week with an inexplicable loss of reception on one of my locals - WOOD-DT on VHF 7 in Grand Rapids, MI.


Up until this week, the only piece in the reception chain I hadn't swapped out was my preamp. So I picked up another CM 7777, hooked it up, and sadly the results were the same.










As a test I was asked to bypass the CM7777 altogether and see what happened. Well, going from antenna directly to my tuner I get zero reception on WOOD-DT and just barely pull in their analog on VHF 8. With it, there is a noticeable improvement in both digital and analog, but the digital has constant dropouts and is unwatchable.


So I'm left wondering what has changed. Even though this tower is about 40 miles out, I used to easily pull it in. Heck, I could even reliably get it using a homemade dipole I had cut for VHF 2 - mounted inside the attic!


The mystery remains. I have heard from a couple of other folks in the Grand Rapids forum with similar problems with WOOD-DT that started recently. The station has denied making any changes.


I'm left wondering if there is some interference coming in from outside markets. I imagine there are stations on VHF 7 in the markets surrounding me - Chicago/Milwaukee/Detroit/Traverse City.


Any other theories as to what/who the culprit is here? I sure don't want to have to start paying $$$ to Charter to get my HD locals.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RadicalRik* /forum/post/13508589
> 
> 
> I read this while at the Wingard antenna site:
> 
> 
> "The modulation system currently being used for DTV in the United States is Eight Level Vestigial Sideband (8VSB). As Terrestrial Digital / HDTV broadcasts become more prominent, UHF antennas will play a larger role because the majority of the HDTV/Digital channel allocations will be in the UHF frequency band."



That was more true when it was written. We are 11 months away from a major shift back to VHF for DTV.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *n4yqt* /forum/post/13512806
> 
> 
> For most of you, the VHF low-band channels (2-6) are being discontinued after the Feb. 2009 transition.



Have you actually counted? It's possible that there will be more DTV stations on channels 2-6 after February 2009 than there are today.


----------



## Mloot

I don't know if this is possible, but I figure it won't hurt to ask.


I currently have an outdoor UHF/VHF combo antenna and mast-mounted pre-amp that is split 2 ways to my pc tuner cards in the 1st floor living room.


Now, I am wanting to add OTA reception to a 2nd floor room on the opposite side of the house. The outside of the house is already wired for all rooms for cable tv distribution (I have since dropped cable tv service). I know that if the signal from my antenna was strong enough, I could simply split the signal 2 ways and then hook it into to the two outdoor coax lines that I would be using.


It is when I consider adding a pre-amp that I get confused. My current setup requires that any splits in the signal occur after the power injector inside the 1st floor living room. In my case, there doesn't seem to be a practical way to split the signal inside and then run another cable up to the 2nd floor room.


My question is this: is there a way to amplify and then split the signal outside (near the antenna) so that I can send the amplified signal through the outdoor cable runs to both rooms?


----------



## PeterTheGeek

I found another press release on the Direct Antenna's new products. The non-smart antenna units look interesting as well. But the press release contains more information on all the antennas including the smart antenna.
Press release Link 


No pictures on the smart antenna, it hasn't been designed yet, but there is pictures for the other two.
New Antenna Pictures


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mloot* /forum/post/13517197
> 
> 
> My question is this: is there a way to amplify and then split the signal outside (near the antenna) so that I can send the amplified signal through the outdoor cable runs to both rooms?



The amplifier you now have should work OK for this, as long as any splitters you put between the mast mounted amp and the power injector are able to pass the DC current (most won't, but they make some that do). Your mast mount unit is where the amp is, so as long as you are getting power to it, it will still work.


----------



## Mloot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/13517532
> 
> 
> The amplifier you now have should work OK for this, as long as any splitters you put between the mast mounted amp and the power injector are able to pass the DC current (most won't, but they make some that do). Your mast mount unit is where the amp is, so as long as you are getting power to it, it will still work.



Thanks for the quick reply. Does this mean that if I split the signal just after the mast mount unit (even though the power injector is at the end of the 1st cable run) the amplified signal will go to both cables? I assume you are talking about a 2-way splitter that is power passive on both ports?


----------



## fbov

Mloot,

Let me test my understanding. You have an outdoor antenna connected to 2 PC tuners. You also have an outdoor, cable TV feed to whole-house distribution. You'd like to hook the antenna up to the whole-house feed, but keep the PC feed.


What I'd suggest, assuming you have a splitter that will pass DC, is to split the signal out of the pre-amp, just as you describe, then put a distribution amp in the line to the whole house feed if the signal's too weak. Test it first - good splitters are only $6 - and only add the dist. amp if you get weak signal issues with the tuners you plan to use.


And since you'll be cutting coax and installing F-connectors, anything you can do to weatherproof the splitter and it's connections will only add to the longevity of the installation.


The one downside would be if you're marginal with the PC tuners now, adding a splitter upstream will drop their signal 3+dB (>50%). If that happens, a higher gain pre-amp ought to do the trick.


Frank


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ghken* /forum/post/13513960
> 
> 
> I'm left wondering if there is some interference coming in from outside markets. I imagine there are stations on VHF 7 in the markets surrounding me - Chicago/Milwaukee/Detroit/Traverse City.



Check with WPBN out of Traverse City to see if they made any changes. I'm surprised to see that WPBN and WOOD will both be on 7 next year for DTV operations. At only 110 miles from each other and with a non-directional antenna on WPBN, it could probably get worse in the summer months. WPBN's DTV transmitter on 50 was about 35 miles North, but they are moving back to 7 next year.


What do analog 7 and 8 look like? If you see any interference (other than snow) on 7, that may yield some clues.


----------



## Joshua2639

I have a Chanel Master antenna in the attic. I am running the RG-6 down to the basement (about 70') and connecting it to a 8 way splitter. I have tried it with the amp, and without the amp.


The HDTV signals bounce from upper 80's down to the 30's, which makes watching a show difficult. Back when I had Comcast Cable, the digital cable would do the same thing. I would always end up unpluging the digital box and connect directly to the TV. I would lose a lot of the features, but at least I could watch without the freezing.


Is this more than likely the same problem? When I built the house I had my electrician put in two cable runs in a different attic (which I remembered after I put in the new run for the antenna). One, or both of these lines might be plugged into the splitter. There is one more cable plugged into the splitter than I have jacks throughout the house. Might this have something to do with it?

Josh


----------



## majik

I hope I'm posting in the right place...


Since the main shows I care to watch are on OTA channels, I am considering getting rid of cable. I signed up and got a coupon (well two) for the digital converter box. After looking over some comments in AVS, I went with the Zenith DTT900. Now I need an antenna to connect to it. What kind of antenna would I need to receive the digital channels? Noting that "outdoor, higher, closer, bigger is better" is emphasized here, would a plain ol' set of rabbit ears not be good enough? What's the cheapest I can go on an antenna? At the very least, I've been able to determine that I don't need an "HD Ready" antenna . Any help is appreciated.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *majik* /forum/post/13518996
> 
> 
> What kind of antenna would I need to receive the digital channels?



It's impossible to say without knowing how strong the signals are at your location. This depends on how powerful the transmitters are, how far away they are from you, whether you're down in a valley or on top of a hill, etc.


Go to http://www.tvfool.com/ and enter your location (exact location is best). This gives you a table with information about the OTA signals at your location, as a PNG image. Save the image on your computer and attach it to a post here. Then people will have a clear idea of what you're dealing with.


----------



## majik




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/13520254
> 
> 
> Go to http://www.tvfool.com/ and enter your location (exact location is best). This gives you a table with information about the OTA signals at your location, as a PNG image. Save the image on your computer and attach it to a post here. Then people will have a clear idea of what you're dealing with.



Here ya go:


----------



## ctdish

TVFool is showing very weak signals even though you are not too far from the TV stations. I guess large mountains are blocking the signals and you might get something from a reflection by pointing in the wrong direction. You could see if anyone in your area has had any luck by checking in the appropriate Local HDTV Info and Reception thread. You are probably going to have to keep cable.

John


----------



## fbov

Majik,

For grins, I threw your zip into MS's local.live.com; you're trying for Mt Wilson, the HARD way - from the end of the range, near Santa Clarita! This qualifies as deep fringe, but with a strong shift in channel assignments next year. Today, you need an antenna for ch 24-68. Next year, its ch 7 to 38. In both cases, since you can't get closer, you'll need bigger and higher because nothing indoor will cut it.


If you check out this link, you'll understand what I'll suggest. In all cases, it needs to be outdoors as high as you can get it, with a pre-amp on the mast and a rotor if you want more than Mt Wilson.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html (modeling based)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...72#post6245872 (empirical data, some of the same antennas as above)


Today, you need gain through Ch 68. The highest gain curves, labeled S, T and D, are for an 8-bay array and two Yagi's. These are premium antennas with excellent gain all-around, but they peak in the 60's, channel-wise and will set you back $100+. That makes an interesting tradeoff, since two different antennas, A and E, both 8-bay arrays, have better gain in the lower channels where you'll be after Feb. 2009, and they're a bit cheaper as well. The CM4228 has a lot of fans - look at it's VHF curve and you'll see another reason why.


After Feb. 2009, you also need VHF-high. You can add a dedicated VHF antenna for 7, 9 and maybe 13, or you can use a combo. Wineguard's got a new line of "HD" antennas that are really just VHF-high optimized VHF sections with a big UHF section. The Channel Master 3671B (marked "O") is the only UHF/VHF combo on the UHF charts. A dedicated pair (UHF and VHF) will absolutely work better than a combo, but at twice the price, it ought to!


The question is what you need. At minimum, a pre-amp is ~$50, a rotor another $70, the mast cost depends on height and anchoring options, maybe $30-300? Then you buy an antenna ($50-$250) and get it mounted on the mast. Cable TV starts looking better ...


Frank


----------



## holl_ands

Or go with a D* or E* satellite system...


That's got to be with WORST OTA reception situation I've ever seen......

Yup, you're in the Santa Clarita hole NW of Mt Wilson....

You might get a BOUNCE off mountains further NW or W of you.....maybe..


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Joshua2639* /forum/post/13518978
> 
> 
> I have a Chanel Master antenna in the attic. I am running the RG-6 down to the basement (about 70') and connecting it to a 8 way splitter. I have tried it with the amp, and without the amp.
> 
> ... There is one more cable plugged into the splitter than I have jacks throughout the house. Might this have something to do with it?
> 
> Josh



With a 70' run and marginal signal, my first question is what kind of amp? You want a mast-mounted pre-amp at the antenna to drive the signal down to the splitter, and perhaps a distribution amp in place of the splitter to feed the house.


Pre-amps have UHF or UHF/VHF inputs and one output, and they're powered through the coax by a separate power supply. They help tremendously when there's very little signal at the antenna, but they don't have enough gain to push through a lot of coax and splitters.


Distribution amps are 1-box units with one input and several outputs. As the name implies, they're designed to push signal over long runs to multiple locations, but without the pre-amp sending it a good signal, they have little benefit. It all starts at the antenna.


But it does matter where it ends; all ports must be terminated. A small screw-on cap is all you need to give un-connected ports the proper termination - if only I could think of their name ...


BTW, getting the antenna out of the attic may be the real solution. If you already have a functioning pre-amp at the antenna, and still can't get a lock connected directly (no STB or splitters) that's what's really needed. A good pre-amp will drive through 70' of coax easily, but it won't unless it had signal inputs in the first place.


Frank


----------



## majik

Bummer....thanks!


----------



## dmulvany

I decided to move to this thread a conversation about antennas that had been started on another thread (ATSC Converter Box Comparisons).


I have a houseboat in Sausalito that has had trouble getting OTA reception; the location is at Liberty Dock, Sausalito, CA 94965.


My main goal is just to get access to television for emergency purposes after a disaster like an earthquake. I'm hard of hearing and can't understand radio communication, so I'd like to know if it's possible to receive OTA television after the digital transition. (Despite numerous requests, Marin County still hasn't come up with a system to send out emergency information via email at this time, so deaf and hard of hearing residents in the county don't have independent access to emergency information from the county if they have no access to TV.)


Most people who have houseboats in the harbor seem to use satellite or cable. However, I did see one house on shore with a massive arrangement of antennas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *holl_ands* 
*dmulvany:*

Northern Sausalito is maybe 10 miles, almost due North of Sutro Tower facility.

However, it's a double edge diffraction path. [Not over water....]

Indoor antenna may work.....I'm thinking reflections off hills N of you....

[Something the propagation prediction programs ignore.....]


But roof top VHF/UHF Combo would be better.
Thanks for looking this up, holl_ands. The peninsula that Sausalito is on is like a mountain range that's *higher* than the hills on the northern side (Tiburon). So it may be very difficult to get digital signals that are passing over that part of the peninsula (which I think is called the Marin Headlands).


The following picture is of a map from AntennaWeb which shows that the signals from the most useful stations would be coming across the high Marin Headlands.











I've also attached an pdf file in case the URL doesn't work.


The most useful stations would transmit right over very high parts of the Marin Headlands (they're indicated by "F"). My best bet for getting any channel at all might be the NBC affiliate, channel 11, which at least would be better than nothing.


I'd appreciate any thoughts people would have about this, including whether I should get a CECB with a double conversion tuner or a smart antenna interface.


Dana

 

SandBargeAntennaZoomedOutWebMap.pdf 100.5478515625k . file


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dmulvany* /forum/post/13525996
> 
> 
> I decided to move to this thread a conversation about antennas that had been started on another thread (ATSC Converter Box Comparisons).
> 
> 
> I have a houseboat in Sausalito that has had trouble getting OTA reception; the location is at Liberty Dock, Sausalito, CA 94965.
> 
> ...
> 
> I'd appreciate any thoughts people would have about this, including whether I should get a CECB with a double conversion tuner or a smart antenna interface.
> 
> 
> Dana



Dana,

First off, thanks for your efforts on the CECB threads; you fill a void no one else is covering. And I was going to suggest asking here ...


Antennaweb is of limited usefulness compared with TVFool.com. I've attached that site's output for Liberty Dock, for you consideration. It gets even better with the lat/long of your antenna site; this might be for the dock street level. In your case, I'd get as precise as you can.


If this is what you see on the water, you're not in bad shape. The San Jose stations at the top (127*) are at rabbit-ear signal levels, line of sight to the transmitters. These should be strong even if you lose LOS down on the water.


San Francisco is the challenge, but at signals in this analysis that are within rooftop antenna range. This is where the precise location is important as a few dB either way can make a difference. A big UHF antenna will get all the signals shown for Liberty Dock, and might even get VHF 7 and 12, post transition.


Bottom line: nothing's going to prevent you from getting San Jose even if you lose LOS, so you'll have PBS, Uni TEL and an independent. SF will depend on how accurate the TVFool predictions are for the dock vs. the boat. I suggest finding your long/lat at the boat and re-running TVFool. You may end up aiming at the hill crest, but I bet you can get something, if only 7 and 12, whose longer wavelengths should bend over the hills better.


As to antenna recommendations, I'd rather wait for a more accurate TVFool plot, since there's a chance you're out of luck at water level.


Hope this helps,

Frank


----------



## DrBri99

I've attached my tvfool results.


With a CM 4228, about 35 feet of cable, then a 4 way splitter, and then from 15 - 30 feet of cable to the 4 outlets I recieve WCVW (real 44, -113.2) and up with the exception of WWBT (real 54). All outlets seem to get the same results, even without the splitter I seem to have the same reception strength.


My question is...Is there an explanaintion for why I get drop outs more frequently on WTVR (CBS), and WRIC (ABC), while the weaker WCVW stays solid longer, unless we have heavy fog (like last night)?


(That raises another question, in the fog my analog reception last night looked much clearer, why is fog better for analog but not digital?)


I've spoken with someone in my area who lives at a much lower elevation, he is able to aviod dropouts on CBS, and he thinks it is from his 4221 stack. Should I go with one too?


----------



## dmulvany




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13527745
> 
> 
> Dana,
> 
> First off, thanks for your efforts on the CECB threads; you fill a void no one else is covering.



It's nice you think that! Other people have been very helpful, though, like holl_ands and smpowell, both of whom have been updating useful spreadsheets about the CECBs (and including information about digital closed captioning in them).



> Quote:
> Antennaweb is of limited usefulness compared with TVFool.com. I've attached that site's output for Liberty Dock, for you consideration. It gets even better with the lat/long of your antenna site; this might be for the dock street level. In your case, I'd get as precise as you can.



I had tried TVfool.com before, but find it a bit difficult to understand. It's also been a bit difficult finding the exact latitude and longitude of the houseboat since the actual location doesn't correspond to the "street" location, and on one tool I used, Liberty Dock was mislabeled. I wish that the satellite version of Google (which clearly indicates where my houseboat is) could be used to find latitude and longitude. Regular map views don't show the houseboats. So I'm not absolutely sure I have the correct latitude and longitude for the houseboat, but I've gotten pretty close, I think.



> Quote:
> If this is what you see on the water, you're not in bad shape. The San Jose stations at the top (127*) are at rabbit-ear signal levels, line of sight to the transmitters. These should be strong even if you lose LOS down on the water.



Those stations (PBS, Uni, TEL) don't transmit emergency news in English, however (as far as I know).



> Quote:
> San Francisco is the challenge, but at signals in this analysis that are within rooftop antenna range. This is where the precise location is important as a few dB either way can make a difference. A big UHF antenna will get all the signals shown for Liberty Dock, and might even get VHF 7 and 12, post transition.
> 
> 
> Bottom line: nothing's going to prevent you from getting San Jose even if you lose LOS, so you'll have PBS, Uni TEL and an independent. SF will depend on how accurate the TVFool predictions are for the dock vs. the boat. I suggest finding your long/lat at the boat and re-running TVFool. You may end up aiming at the hill crest, but I bet you can get something, if only 7 and 12, whose longer wavelengths should bend over the hills better.



If I could get NBC *and* ABC, that would be good for emergency purposes. If I could get only NBC using an indoor antenna, that might be okay as a back-up in case I can't use the satellite receiver (due to earthquake damage or some other reason). (I have a 20-inch HDTV that might be able to run off my portable power supply or a generator if I get one.)



> Quote:
> As to antenna recommendations, I'd rather wait for a more accurate TVFool plot, since there's a chance you're out of luck at water level.



I'd be curious what the ballpark figure would be to get rigged up to get more channels (and how many channels I might be able to get), but the marine environment and the wind would also be tough on outside antennas.


Here are the pre-transition and post-transition digital channels for the houseboat:


----------



## andy.s.lee




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dmulvany* /forum/post/13535824
> 
> 
> It's also been a bit difficult finding the exact latitude and longitude of the houseboat since the actual location doesn't correspond to the "street" location, and on one tool I used, Liberty Dock was mislabeled. I wish that the satellite version of Google (which clearly indicates where my houseboat is) could be used to find latitude and longitude. Regular map views don't show the houseboats. So I'm not absolutely sure I have the correct latitude and longitude for the houseboat, but I've gotten pretty close, I think.



You can try web sites like http://www.earthtools.org/ to help you find more accurate coordinates for your location. You can select between the usual map or satellite views. Just keep zooming in until the cross-hairs in the center of the map are on top of the point you want to reference.


The coordinates are shown in the upper left hand corner of the screen. If you want a VERY accurate coordinate, you can click on the tab labeled "Location" just underneath. This will reveal the coordinates down to an excessive number of decimal places. Simply cut-and-paste the coordinates as needed.


Best regards,

Andy


----------



## PA_MainyYak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *andy.s.lee* /forum/post/13536029
> 
> 
> You can try web sites like http://www.earthtools.org/ to help you find more accurate coordinates for your location. You can select between the usual map or satellite views. Just keep zooming in until the cross-hairs in the center of the map are on top of the point you want to reference.
> 
> 
> The coordinates are shown in the upper left hand corner of the screen. If you want a VERY accurate coordinate, you can click on the tab labeled "Location" just underneath. This will reveal the coordinates down to an excessive number of decimal places. Simply cut-and-paste the coordinates as needed.
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Andy



Andy probably as the better idea, but I wanted to suggest Google Earth. There's a status line at the lower left of the map that displays the coordinates, the altitude and apparent height above surface of the view where the cursor is pointed. Since it reads from the cursor position, cut & paste is out -- you have to transcribe the coordinates, but it is extremely accurate.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dmulvany* /forum/post/13535824
> 
> 
> ...It's also been a bit difficult finding the exact latitude and longitude of the houseboat ...



I use topozone.com. It can be hard interpreting topographic maps, but they give you 6 significant figures and you can read altitude off the contours.

Frank (gotta run!)


----------



## dmulvany




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *andy.s.lee* /forum/post/13536029
> 
> 
> You can try web sites like http://www.earthtools.org/ to help you find more accurate coordinates for your location. You can select between the usual map or satellite views. Just keep zooming in until the cross-hairs in the center of the map are on top of the point you want to reference.



Thanks, Andy. Very helpful.


The Earthtools also looks useful for estimating the height of the "mountain range" between the houseboat and the TV transmitters to the south. 101, for example, goes through a tunnel, and the height of the mountain that it goes through is 672.6 feet (or 205 meters). That "mountain range" is about 2.1 miles southwest from the houseboat (and possibly in the way of the transmissions from San Jose). However, it depends on just where those TV transmitters are.


When I've walked out on the roof towards the northeastern end of the houseboat, I can see the eastern part of San Francisco when the other boats around are at low tide. I've never used an antenna on that part of the houseboat. Possibly using an antenna at the northeastern part of the houseboat would intercept the transmissions from San Jose better.


I've uploaded the TVfool pictures based on the more accurate latitude and longitude and from the northeastern part of the boat.


Looks like it will get easier to get ABC after the transition occurs.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *andy.s.lee* /forum/post/13536029
> 
> 
> You can try web sites like http://www.earthtools.org/ to help you find more accurate coordinates for your location. ...



Andy, great site; Google maps with a pointer.

(No where near TVFool, however)


Frank


----------



## fbov

Quote:

Originally Posted by *dmulvany* 
Thanks, Andy. Very helpful.

...

I've uploaded the TVfool pictures based on the more accurate latitude and longitude and from the northeastern part of the boat.

...
According to Andy ...

"_The most important value to pay attention to is the "Rx(dBm)" value since that is roughly how much signal you have to work with. ... in VERY ROUGH TERMS, signals above about -70 dBm should be strong enough to receive with an indoor antenna, signals above about -90 dBm should be strong enough to receive with an attic antenna, and signals above about -110 dBm should be strong enough to receive with a rooftop antenna._"


I've only tested the -70 dBm recommendation and I was just UN-able to get stations weaker than -70dBm with an indoor antenna but get them very well with an attic antenna. The key was that he correctly predicted the hole I live in and it's affect on signal.


In your case, most of the plot is in the -90 to -110 range, so it predicts that a good rooftop antenna will do the trick. I can specifically recommend the Channel Master 4228 as it's a proven design with high UHF gain AND enough VHF-high gain that you will not need a separate VHF antenna, post-transition.


I've attached some test data Bob Chase posted (Thanks Bob!) that compares this unit with several high-end UHF and a range of VHF antennas. Only two do very well across the 7-52 channel range. The CM 3671 is a monster of a dual-element antenna roughly the size of a car, but it gets Ch 2-6 as well ...


Costs are roughly $50 for the 4228, $50 for a UHF/VHF pre-amp, a rotor's another $70 but you may be able to do that manually (Or aim this at SF and ignore SJ). Cable's fairly cheap using vendors in the AVS header. Shipping won't be trivial as the 4228's not small (40"x36"x4"), but the place I recommend below will combine items to keep it down (especially poles).
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/ 


With -90 to -110 signals with no mast height specified, you should be good. A smaller antenna might work, but not for both VHF and UHF. Just be prepared to aim at the hill crest, as that's where the signal if strongest, not toward the transmitters behind it.


Good luck,

Frank

 

Antenna Testing 09-18-2005.pdf 274.8447265625k . file


----------



## dmulvany




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13539182
> 
> 
> According to Andy ...
> 
> "_The most important value to pay attention to is the "Rx(dBm)" value since that is roughly how much signal you have to work with. ... in VERY ROUGH TERMS, signals above about -70 dBm should be strong enough to receive with an indoor antenna, signals above about -90 dBm should be strong enough to receive with an attic antenna, and signals above about -110 dBm should be strong enough to receive with a rooftop antenna._"
> 
> 
> I've only tested the -70 dBm recommendation and I was just UN-able to get stations weaker than -70dBm with an indoor antenna but get them very well with an attic antenna. The key was that he correctly predicted the hole I live in and it's affect on signal.
> 
> 
> In your case, most of the plot is in the -90 to -110 range, so it predicts that a good rooftop antenna will do the trick.



What would be recommended for an attic antenna in order to get the NBC (-82.6, 2Edge, 164 degrees) and ABC (-72.6, 1Edge, 162 degrees) stations post-transition? (I have some limited attic space, maybe about 3 or 4 feet high, at the northeastern side of the houseboat.)


(Because of how close together and exposed the houseboats are, very large outside antennas if used frequently would make a negative impact in the look of the area, and I'd probably use the satellite receiver most of the time anyway. My main interest is in getting emergency news from local stations like ABC and NBC as a back-up in case I can't use the satellite receiver, and if I can do that using an inconspicuous attic antenna, so much the better. )


(The CBS station is at 91.1---very close to the cut-off; if I could get that as well, that would be nice, but not a deal-breaker.)


When you suggest aiming at the hill crest, are you talking about angling the antenna to optimize reception rather than using a straight up and down vertical orientation?


My late father, who had owned this houseboat, had set up an odd-looking external antenna on a wheel, but it isn't angled up towards the hill crest and didn't get very good reception. When I get out to the houseboat again, I'll take a picture of it so you can all look at it and scratch your heads! Maybe if it was angled better, it might work a lot better.


----------



## OkieDave

I've been testing a homemade Gray-Hoverman UHF antenna, and folks, this antenna really works well. I can receive all 10 Oklahoma City UHF digital stations from about 70 miles away with very few breakups, with the antenna only six feet off the ground. This is with the antenna connected to one tuner only, reception drops somewhat when the signal is split to two tuners.


I'd like to build a sturdier one to mount in my attic along with a VHF-Hi antenna, connect these through a pre-amp and combine the OTA signals with the RF outputs from my two satellite receives for distribution throughout the house. I hope this drawing will make clear my setup, and what I want to do.
Attachment 106482 

The unused terminal on the 4-way splitter is currently terminated, but is reserved for possible diplexing with the satellite antenna feed to the lower left TV. The satellite RF outputs don't presently need any amplification for whole-house distribution. The Sat/DVR box on the right has a built-in ATSC tuner. The black lines are my present setup, with the red indicating what I'd like to end up with. Satellite antenna feeds are separate cables not shown on the drawing.


Is there a better way to go about this? I'm considering using a CM 7777 pre-amp, will I also need a distribution amp? All cable runs are between 25 and 55 feet, with the longest path from the antenna to any TV being less than 70 feet. Will a pre-amp prevent the broadcasting of the satellite box outputs, or is something else needed?


Thanks in advance for your comments.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dmulvany* /forum/post/13539681
> 
> 
> What would be recommended for an attic antenna in order to get the NBC (-82.6, 2Edge, 164 degrees) and ABC (-72.6, 1Edge, 162 degrees) stations post-transition? (I have some limited attic space, maybe about 3 or 4 feet high, at the northeastern side of the houseboat.)



With KNTV/NBC's booming power of over 50kW in your direction (which is quite high on DTV VHF), I think we are putting too much thought into this. Even with 2 edge reception, I wouldn't be surprised if you can pick this up with simple rabbit ears.


If you end up installing a VHF antenna in the "attic," something like this should be fine:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=Y5-7-13


----------



## fbov

Quote:

Originally Posted by *dmulvany* 
What would be recommended for an attic antenna in order to get the NBC (-82.6, 2Edge, 164 degrees) and ABC (-72.6, 1Edge, 162 degrees) stations post-transition?

...

When you suggest aiming at the hill crest, are you talking about angling the antenna to optimize reception rather than using a straight up and down vertical orientation?


My late father, who had owned this houseboat, had set up an odd-looking external antenna on a wheel, but it isn't angled up towards the hill crest and didn't get very good reception. When I get out to the houseboat again, I'll take a picture of it so you can all look at it and scratch your heads! Maybe if it was angled better, it might work a lot better.
Dana, same recommendation, maybe.


Conventionally constructed attics are worth -15 to -20dB signal loss; Bob Chase tested that, too, attached. Those stations should still be receivable with a CM-4228 antenna (Can't see you attachments while replying.) and conventional construction, but this is a house boat. If it's all wood construction, there's no issue. If it's all metal, you'll have to mount outside.


If, however, these ABC and NBC stations are the VHF-high stations you'll have post-transition, and they're all you need, Falcon_77's recommendation is a better choice. It's form factor may also be easier to mount - long-and-wide vs. tall-and-wide for the 4228 - depending on the shape of the attic space.


I'd thought about suggesting a "use-in-emergency strategy," to address corrosion and visual clutter - find where it works, then store it until you need it. Attic mounting is perfect, if it works.


Angling the antenna is what you think. All antennas have a peak gain direction, and the higher the antenna gain, the faster gain falls off as you move off that direction. In a marginal case, after adjusting L/R, I'd try tilting back to see if signal improves. The last "edge" diffracting the signal is the effective source for your signal.


Pictures are always interesting ...


Frank

 

2004-12-11 testing attic antenna performance v03.pdf 129.5986328125k . file


----------



## PCTools

Well, I played around with 20' of pipe in the air and just made the plunge of ordering a NEW American 50' tower.


Holy cow, did these go up in price.


My dealer quoted me:


$550 - 5 Sections of tower (1 pc S-7 & 4 pcs S-5)

$120 - Concrete

$160 - Labor

$ 20 - House bracket

======

$850


My old system is in the attachment.


Any feedback?

 

Project.pdf 464.978515625k . file


----------



## Lukes




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Scooper* /forum/post/3577147
> 
> 
> The only issue with that is FINDING a VHF only antenna now - I have one - bought a couple of years ago.



Howdy neighbor (Scooper)!


Dumping the D*tv sat as of 4/15 and going strictly OTA. Tired of increasing prices with only shopping channels being added. Did a self-install on that one back in '97 and bought my own triple LNB dish, Hughes HB-045 rec3eiver. It has worked flawlessly.


Anyway, below is list of equipment I have coming. The CM 3671 will be located on the chimney on a rotator.

I live in low spot west of US 1 and south of Hwy 96 with 40-60 ft trees around. I figured that there's going to some hot channels and I'll be picking up an inline attenuator (if needed, the SAT version).










Anyway, plugged up a Samy DTB-H260F to use now on my 480I 27 Phillips tube until I get the HDTV. Please don't laugh, I have about 250 albums and a B&O turntable.gives you an idea how long I've been around. Jumpered the Y' component from the component out on the 260F to the composite video in' on the set to bring up the menus in B&W. Got 11 DTV channels with a 10dB powered rat shack rabbit ears for starters. One of the non-network stations on the 47 frequency (I think) had kids programming on.better picture than from my DVD player both using S-Video connections on the cartoon / puppet stuff.










Anyway, Scooper, I'd appreciate any comments you (or anyone else's) may have and the equipment I've picked out since you live in the area and also is listed atennaweb.org's information. About half the stations would drop out occasionally.







The rabbit ears were located facing approximately 190º on the opposite side of the house last night.


The antenna will be about 25-30ft up and the closet neighbor's houses is greater than 75ft from the to-be mast location.

Once again, I picked the equipment listed because I'm in a low spot with large trees (mostly hardwoods) around on some of my land and the neighbors' lands too. Also, the total RG6 will be 80ft to the great room. I plan to split the signal after the FM splitter and feed to a bedroom that is already wired. Another 50 ft.


CM 3671

CM 7777

CM 9521A

Perfect Vision 2-way Splitter for Off / Sat (P7002AP)

Winegard CA8800 FM Band Separator/Coupler

(2) 5ft Galvinized Mast (CM1805)

CM 9067 Y-Type Chimney Mount

Single Grounding Block - One RG-6 Cable

Copper Grounding Rod (4 ft) - Pro Brand | Qty: 2

Perfect Vision ASA38 Copper Clamps 3/8 (ASA38) | Qty: 2

Copper Ground Wire #10 Gauge - 30 Ft | Qty: 1

Digicon RG6Q Connector Quad Shield Coax 6ft

Digicon RG6Q Connector Quad Shield Coax 25ft

Digicon RG6 Connector Coax Cable- 3ft (Qty: 2)


From Antennaweb.org


uhf WRAL-DT 5.1CBS RALEIGH, NC 190° 25.6 53 *yellow

uhf WRAZ-DT 49 FOX RALEIGH, NC 190° 25.6 49 *green

uhf WNCN-DT 17.1 NBC GOLDSBORO, NC 190° 25.6 55 red

uhf WRPX 47 ION ROCKY MOUNT, NC 87° 19.0 47 red

uhf WNCN 17 NBC GOLDSBORO, NC 190° 25.6 17 *red

uhf WLFL-DT 27 CW RALEIGH, NC Feb 17, 2009 (p-t) 189° 25.6 27 *red

uhf WRDC-DT28.1 MNTDURHAM, NC 189° 25.6 27 red

uhf WLFL 22 CW RALEIGH, NC 225° 28.1 22 *red

uhf WLFL-DT22.1 CWRALEIGH, NC 189° 25.657 *red

uhf WRDC-DT 28 MNT DURHAM, NC Feb 17, 2009 (p-t) 189° 25.6 28 *red

vhf WTVD-DT11.1 ABC DURHAM, NC Feb 17, 2009 (p-t) 190° 26.0 11 red

uhf WRDC 28 MNT DURHAM, NC 190° 25.4 28 red

uhf WRAY 30 SAH WILSON, NC 134° 25.7 30 red

vhf WRAL 5 CBS RALEIGH, NC 191° 25.4 5 *red

uhf WTVD-DT 11.1 ABC DURHAM, NC 190° 26.0 52 red

uhf WRAZ 50 FOX RALEIGH, NC 191° 25.4 50 red

vhf WTVD 11 ABC DURHAM, NC 190° 26.0 11 blue

vhf WUNC 4 PBS CHAPEL HILL, NC 260° 38.0 4 *blue

uhf WRAL-DT 48.1 CBS RALEIGH, NC Feb 17, 2009 (p-t) 189° 25.6 48 *blue

uhf WNCN-DT 17.1NBC GOLDSBORO, NC Feb 17, 2009 (p-t) 89° 25.6 17 blue

uhf WUVC 40 UNI FAYETTEVILLE, NC 224° 44.7 40 *blue

uhf WRPX-DT 15 ION ROCKY MOUNT, NC 87° 19.0 15 blue

uhf WUNP 36 PBS CHAPEL HILL, NC 75° 41.9 36 *violet

uhf WRAY-DT 42 SAH WILSON, NC 134° 25.7 42 violet

uhf W64CN 38 TBN RALEIGH, NC 191° 25.4 38 *violet

uhf WUNC-DT 4.1 PBS CHAPEL HILL, NC 260° 38.0 59 violet


I'm still reading this tread......


----------



## fbov

Lukes,

If you're still reading, click one of the TVFool.com links and post the .PNG (both today and post-transition) as an attachment tomorrow, after your obligatory 5 (?) posts. Antennaweb is missing a key response - signal level - and is notorious for missing fine details like the low spots you and I live in (but it misses trees and houses). Street address is good, long/lat is better, both truncated in the plot for your privacy.


You've picked a top-line set-up; I bet you realized that TV reception's the same, NTSC or ATSC so everything you know still applies. The only issue I see is tuner overload if you have a close/strong station, and the closest station I see is still 19 miles.


When you get it up, let us know how you fare. The 3671 is one of the few combo units that has a high-gain UHF section, and the H260 is well respected. If you think the puppets looked good, wait until you get a real HD image and display!


Frank


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13548207
> 
> 
> Well, I played around with 20' of pipe in the air and just made the plunge of ordering a NEW American 50' tower.
> 
> 
> Holy cow, did these go up in price.
> 
> 
> My dealer quoted me:
> 
> 
> $550 - 5 Sections of tower (1 pc S-7 & 4 pcs S-5)
> 
> $120 - Concrete
> 
> $160 - Labor
> 
> $ 20 - House bracket
> 
> ======
> 
> $850
> 
> 
> My old system is in the attachment.
> 
> 
> Any feedback?



Sounds pretty reasonable to me.Let me know if you want a big Highbander to put on it.


----------



## PCTools

Let me pay off this tower, and you might have a deal!











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/13551668
> 
> 
> Sounds pretty reasonable to me.Let me know if you want a big Highbander to put on it.


----------



## Lukes




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13550947
> 
> 
> Lukes,
> 
> If you're still reading, click one of the TVFool.com links and post the .PNG (both today and post-transition) as an attachment tomorrow, after your obligatory 5 (?) posts. Antennaweb is missing a key response - signal level - and is notorious for missing fine details like the low spots you and I live in (but it misses trees and houses). Street address is good, long/lat is better, both truncated in the plot for your privacy.
> 
> 
> You've picked a top-line set-up; I bet you realized that TV reception's the same, NTSC or ATSC so everything you know still applies. The only issue I see is tuner overload if you have a close/strong station, and the closest station I see is still 19 miles.
> 
> 
> When you get it up, let us know how you fare. The 3671 is one of the few combo units that has a high-gain UHF section, and the H260 is well respected. If you think the puppets looked good, wait until you get a real HD image and display!
> 
> 
> Frank



I'm thinking I'm having to go large directional antenna and 'hot' with this setup because of being in a hole and the trees all around looking up to the horizon.


Not sure, but I think the Samsung DTBH260F HDTV Terrestrial Receiver will not be that sensitive, if so, I'll temporarily bypass the CM 7777 until I get the inline variable attenuator, if needed.


Am I correct in assuming that in most cases (signal level only) that I should be able to receive VHF signals > -90 dB and UHF > -70 dB??? A friend in Fayetteville, NC who installs video systems commercially for large hotels, etc, said that a -10 dB signal level is optimal at the receiver?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lukes* /forum/post/13552105
> 
> 
> Am I correct in assuming that in most cases (signal level only) that I should be able to receive VHF signals > -90 dB and UHF > -70 dB??? A friend in Fayetteville, NC who installs video systems commercially for large hotels, etc, said that a -10 dB signal level is optimal at the receiver?



I would expect that you could get anything on your tvfool list that is stronger than about -93 dbm. VHF/UHF shouldn't matter. An aggressive antenna would pick up a few more analog LPTV stations. I wouldn't bother.


Your friend is using dbuv numbers. tvfool uses dbm. uv referes to microvolts in a 75 ohm system; dbm refers to milliwatts. The -10 dbuv preferred measurement is usually after a preamp. You can convert between the two. The math to do so is shown here:
http://www.giangrandi.ch/electronics...l/decibel.html 


You can get away with less signal in a digital distribution system than an analog system.


----------



## Lukes




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/13552366
> 
> 
> I would expect that you could get anything on your tvfool list that is stronger than about -93 dbm. VHF/UHF shouldn't matter. An aggressive antenna would pick up a few more analog LPTV stations. I wouldn't bother.
> 
> 
> Your friend is using dbuv numbers. tvfool uses dbm. uv referes to microvolts in a 75 ohm system; dbm refers to milliwatts. The -10 dbuv preferred measurement is usually after a preamp. You can convert between the two. The math to do so is shown here:
> 
> -----------------]
> 
> 
> You can get away with less signal in a digital distribution system than an analog system.



Thanks Tower Guy!!









_You can get away with less signal in a digital distribution system than an analog system.[/quote]_



That's for sure, however, it'd just be nice to be able to tap the local market and the reach a little to places like Wilmington, Greenville, Burlington, Asheboro, and maybe even Norfolk, Va just to see what else is going on around in this crazy world.


I've seen others talk about Winegard products, but the performance specs are a tad better with Channel Master, down in Smithfield. I may buy some Winegard stuff later especially since they are made in Iowa.


I grew up with Channel Master antenna back in the '60's in Fayetteville.

We only could get 3, sometimes 4. WRAL, WTVD and WBTW-13 out of Florence, SC. Sometimes, we'd get WECT out of Wilmington.


The conversion link is definitely a keeper.


The CM 7777 specifies a VHF gain of 23dB or 131.75 dBµV and a 26 dB or 134.75 dBµV gain for the UHF. I chose that pre-amp because I might later do something weird like add a UHF antenna on top and then split the inputs from each antenna using the CM 3671 for VHF only and leave the antennas stationary. I'd most likely have to move the CM 4221 (a wind sail) to a different mast setup (if I went to that setup) to angle it some and up.


It all depends on what I wind up 'seeing'. Stuff like this can get interesting, and I'm sure it will be once I get things going. The 1080i is in the plan, but, not for a year or so. I do not watch that much tube on a daily basis unless I'm sick or it poor weather and all the inside chores are caught up


Figured I take what I save on the D*TV and pay for the systems.


----------



## workingmantom

I just installed a CM4221 on a 10' mast on the roof. Antenna pointed approx. 130*. Digital reception is fantastic, just purchased a Vizio HDTV. The main channels I watch now are 8.1, 25.1, 35.1, and 46.1, plus some analog. I have rotated the ant. to receive 36.1 and some other analogs which comes in very clear. Can I install a 2nd CM4221 pointed in this direction on the same mast? I really don't want to use a rotor. I have tried taking the screen off of the ant, but it doesn't pick up 36.1 without the screen. If I can use 2 antennaes, can they be back to back, or one above the other? Thanks, Tom


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/13552366
> 
> 
> I would expect that you could get anything on your tvfool list that is stronger than about -93 dbm. VHF/UHF shouldn't matter. An aggressive antenna would pick up a few more analog LPTV stations. I wouldn't bother.
> 
> 
> Your friend is using dbuv numbers. tvfool uses dbm. uv referes to microvolts in a 75 ohm system; dbm refers to milliwatts. The -10 dbuv preferred measurement is usually after a preamp. You can convert between the two. The math to do so is shown here:
> http://www.giangrandi.ch/electronics...l/decibel.html
> 
> 
> You can get away with less signal in a digital distribution system than an analog system.



Careful....tvfool Rx(dBm) level is using F(99,99) statistics--expressing the signal level

during the deepest fade in the worst *location* for the worst *time* of the day/year.

In other words, it is trying to calculate "worst case" propagation conditions.


andy.s.lee's Rx(dBm) recommendations are empirically derived, but do not

include several important variables such as whether through trees (variable loss),

whether indoor/attic (13 +/- 7 dB loss), antenna gain (0-15+ dB) and whether

preamp or not (typ. 10 dB improvement). So YMMV....a lot....


andy.s.lee posted a comparison of F(99,99) "worst case" signal levels vs

F(50,50) [i.e. mean signal level for a location in the mean of the distribution]:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...0&d=1195561571 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...post12266426 

Note that there is 20-30+ dB difference for smooth earth model.

Irregular terrain difference could be even more...


F(50,50) is closer to what an average reading spectrum analyzer or signal level

meter will read and is important when calculating overload levels.


If you read back from the above post, you will see further discussion as well as

my earlier determination that tvfool's Rx (dBm) was about 19.5 dB LOWER than

F(50,90) "average" signal level for line-of-sight conditions and more for diffraction.


----------



## fbov

Lukes,

You've got an interesting signal field; rabbit-ears for all the networks in one direction, and then a range of challenging signals all around; perfect for a tall mast, rotor and big antenna!

Frank


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *workingmantom* /forum/post/13553234
> 
> 
> I just installed a CM4221 on a 10' mast on the roof. Antenna pointed approx. 130*. Digital reception is fantastic, just purchased a Vizio HDTV. The main channels I watch now are 8.1, 25.1, 35.1, and 46.1, plus some analog. I have rotated the ant. to receive 36.1 and some other analogs which comes in very clear. Can I install a 2nd CM4221 pointed in this direction on the same mast? I really don't want to use a rotor. I have tried taking the screen off of the ant, but it doesn't pick up 36.1 without the screen. If I can use 2 antennaes, can they be back to back, or one above the other? Thanks, Tom



The 4221 has a wide pattern, so you're getting quite a few stations with one postion.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4221.html 


The back lobes are small in the directions the two antenna would face, so you might jockey them a bit to get nulls lining up without sacrificing too much foward gain. At 90* to each other, they don't see each other. You need 145* and 178*...


Combining two antennas pointed in different directions (not "ganged") has signal implications. Each antenna loses 1/2 it's power when combined, so you might need a bigger one for the weaker station, and mount it higher. A lower-loss alternative is to run parallel lines into the house and use a switch.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/merging.html 


I wonder, what do you get from the stronger stations with it aimed at 36? The reason I ask is that the rear lobes of the 4221 are at 135* and 180*. If it works, you stay with one antenna.


Frank


----------



## Lukes




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13553259
> 
> 
> Lukes,
> 
> You've got an interesting signal field; rabbit-ears for all the networks in one direction, and then a range of challenging signals all around; perfect for a tall mast, rotor and big antenna!
> 
> Frank



Currently, in the MBedroom on rabbit ears on an old 19 inch (RF in only) with the rabbit ears facing south on the southern half of the house-being in a hole too) I get 8 UHF and 3 VHF channels. That's surprising in that the Rat Shack power antenna usually has to have the gain turned down too at night.


Last night, CBS and NBC were clear as a bell with that old set on the analog stations.


Eventually a 1080i in the great room and the 27" tube Phillips to the bedroom.

I'm happy with that set as it has a really good picture for a 580V resolution on a 4:3.


The Samy DTB260F cannot even 'connect' to the 19" as HD digital is only provided on the component and HDMI connections. I have to pull the y off the component out on the receiver to the composite in on the 27" just to get the OSD to come up...what a pleasure.










Anyway, working on the now and future tech. Laying out the dough for wholesale HD conversion at this time is a little steep. Will have to do it on the incremental as I figure I don't want just the cheapest I can pick up. I've been virtual shopping for sure.


To be honest, some HD LCD's aren't that good in person...too washed with regards to brightness and sharpness. The Phillips 27" tube has a better picture especially when viewing 8-12 ft away. I like the Phillips LCD's too for their pictures as well as some of the Sharp's, Toshiba's and Samsung's, but not all models.


When I put my own SAT in (DrecTV) in '97 there was only one model up (HDTV) on the receiver...that Hughes was almost $800 then) and HDTV sets were $10K-$20K. I still went with the triple LNB dish as to get the locals on SAT being 'in the hole'. Had TWC before that and every thunderstorm it went out and the Discovery channel faded over time constantly. Being the last house on the feed in the rural subdivision with the type filter traps they used created that....every 3 months, service call.


Anyway, DirecTV service ends here on the 15th. I haven't added any programming in 3 years and they have increased their bill almost 30% over that time frame.


It won't be long before HDTV will be broadcast on cell phones and laptops over the WI-FI for those that want to pay for it. Believe me, Verizon has been doing one heck of a build out in the last 5 years up in the NE especially. I know, they buy our fiber opitc cables...I qualify those designs.


For those with cable, complete al-le'-carte programming isn't far off as video on demand is hitting big in a Chicago test market. I mean the local networks, pay-review, movies, sports, and other 'daily' channels like History, TBS, TNT, FoodNetwork, DIY, ESPN, Disney, AMC, TCM, FMC etc. Of the 150 channels on the SAT, I only watched 10-15 channels regularly. I'm gonna miss AMC, TCM, and FCM. XM SAT was good too fo' the blues on Friday nights as well as the jazz, '60's, '70's, classic rock stations, etc. I only watch TV an hour or so (that's split morning and nights) a day during the week and may 2-3 hr / day on the weekends at most.


I'll have to find a forum somewhere where they talk about Jim Cantore' from the Weather Channel 'foaming at the mouth' while broadcasting from hurricane strikes and blizzards......that guy can really hype up a storm......Katrina got his goat good....he'd never seen anything like that.


----------



## Lukes




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13554321
> 
> 
> The 4221 has a wide pattern, so you're getting quite a few stations with one postion.
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4221.html
> 
> 
> The back lobes are small in the directions the two antenna would face, so you might jockey them a bit to get nulls lining up without sacrificing too much foward gain. At 90* to each other, they don't see each other. You need 145* and 178*...
> 
> _Combining two antennas pointed in different directions (not "ganged") has signal implications. Each antenna loses 1/2 it's power when combined, so you might need a bigger one for the weaker station, and mount it higher. A lower-loss alternative is to run parallel lines into the house and use a switch.
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/merging.html_
> 
> 
> I wonder, what do you get from the stronger stations with it aimed at 36? The reason I ask is that the rear lobes of the 4221 are at 135* and 180*. If it works, you stay with one antenna.
> 
> 
> Frank



Thanks for the post....I did not realize that both antennas lose roughly 1/2 power when the signals are combined.


----------



## Lukes




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13553245
> 
> 
> Careful....tvfool Rx(dBm) level is using F(99,99) statistics--expressing the signal level
> 
> during the deepest fade in the worst *location* for the worst *time* of the day/year.
> 
> In other words, it is trying to calculate "worst case" propagation conditions.
> 
> 
> andy.s.lee's Rx(dBm) recommendations are empirically derived, but do not
> 
> include several important variables such as whether through trees (variable loss),
> 
> whether indoor/attic (13 +/- 7 dB loss), antenna gain (0-15+ dB) and whether
> 
> preamp or not (typ. 10 dB improvement). So YMMV....a lot....
> 
> 
> andy.s.lee posted a comparison of F(99,99) "worst case" signal levels vs
> 
> F(50,50) [i.e. mean signal level for a location in the mean of the distribution]:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...0&d=1195561571
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...post12266426
> 
> Note that there is 20-30+ dB difference for smooth earth model.
> 
> Irregular terrain difference could be even more...
> 
> 
> F(50,50) is closer to what an average reading spectrum analyzer or signal level
> 
> meter will read and is important when calculating overload levels.
> 
> 
> If you read back from the above post, you will see further discussion as well as
> 
> my earlier determination that tvfool's Rx (dBm) was about 19.5 dB LOWER than
> 
> F(50,90) "average" signal level for line-of-sight conditions and more for diffraction.



Thank you for that post....The loss graph w/ respect to terrain is good info.

The terrain around here in the Raleigh area is 'slightly hilly' with my 180-190º LOS is looking up hill some ( 50-60 ft) for a half mile or so and 40-60 ft hardwoods all over that. After that....the top of the 'hill' in that direction is higher (maybe 50-60 ft best guess) than the transmitters in Auburn (along I-40) SE of Raleigh. The towers there are 1900-2000 ft.


My thinking is that getting 8 UHF analog and 3 VHF locals of the rabbit ears is that the chimney mount with the CM 3671 and rotator will be pretty good. I'm getting the CM 7777 as insurance. I wish I could get my hands on a signal meter for the analogs right now.....that would make sighting and design (mast elevation) much quicker and accurate for my specific location as they will not be moving those towers...just the frequencies and power.


The roughly -20dB loss for the F(50,50) versus the F(99,99) is significant from the model. I may be lucky in the sense that the 'Cliff Effect' is not too significant in my specific location w/ regards to signal path. It was interesting last night as the OTA analogs were pretty good with a low cloud deck and drizzle. My guess would be that the lower deck may have helped in redirection of the signal path some as to move the edge of the cliff a little.


So, could I take that graph and rescale it my self for a 2000 ft tower and a 30 ft antenna? That should push the loss values up and that relationship would also be logarithmic w/ regards to the F(50,50) and F(99,99) models?


I realize that if I did that, I'd most likely have a 30% lower value if I measure the signal from Chl 5 here locally because of 'the local hole' and the trees.


The 1st edge and 2nd edge diffractions signal behaviors is something else I need to read up on to get a good hand.


I just hope I get a decent 'sweet spot' off my chimney.


Once again I seriously appreciate your reply. I did not know TVFool was using the worst case in their signal predictions. That's a positive in my case.


The more your engineer types post with regards to the tech stuff....the more I'm thinking the CM 7777 is going to make the signals too hot for the locals facing south, but, after the swaps occur on 02/19/2009 I'll have it in case someone drops power on their new xmtr.


I'm gonna hunt me an in-line variable attenuator to put in from after the FM splitter out and before the splitter that will tap to the bedroom.


----------



## fbov




Lukes said:


> ...
> 
> The more your engineer types post with regards to the tech stuff....the more I'm thinking the CM 7777 is going to make the signals too hot for the locals facing south
> 
> ...QUOTE]
> 
> 
> That's one reason I mentioned rabbit ears; you don't want to aim a really big, amplified antenna at really strong stations.
> 
> 
> DTV being threshold-sensitive, all you need is a minimum signal for a perfect picture. An NTIA coupon box and indoor antenna will give all your TVs the southern stations, as they do through the H260. You may not want all TV on the big antenna, either, unless everyone watches the same transmitters. Here are some thoughts:
> 
> - consider limiting the rotor travel so you can't aim fully South. You may be close enough to receive them using back-gain or a side lobe, and signal reduction isn't needed if you can't aim South.
> 
> - run the antenna to one tuner so any overload issues are in one place. The H260 may have overload protection; I'm not familair with its features. I'm not hearing that any of the CECBs do.
> 
> 
> Frank
> 
> =======
> 
> Here's an even neater idea; put the antenna due North of a big evergreen tree (or plant one due South of the antenna). The tree will be a natural attenuator, preventing overload. Just make sure it's an evergreen; shedding leaves would be bad for your tuner.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lukes* /forum/post/13555158
> 
> 
> Thanks for the post....I did not realize that both antennas lose roughly 1/2 power when the signals are combined.



Lukes, this was a response to workingmantom, not you.


You have a combo UHF/VHF antenna, and the 7777 has separate UHF and VHF inputs, so the 1/2 power things doesn't apply. Read the link I included. The 1/2 power thing is for identical antennas pointed in different directions - what workingmantom wanted to do. You have separate UHF and VHF antennas going into a pre-amp that combines UHF and VHF without any losses. Very different.


Frank


----------



## seekermeister

fbov,


I'm look at either the Winegard SS1000 or the SS2000 to replace the Radio Shack antenna that I'm going to return. However, I noticed that it is designed to receive only channels 14-69. I suppose that is a moot point in terms of analog stations that are soon to be history, but I also heard that some digital channels will be using the higher end of VHF also. How does one determine if this applies within their local area?


----------



## fbov

It's called the Square Shooter in the link.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/SquareShooter.html 


Reasonable 8-10 dB gain, neat dipole element shape (click the Flash demo on Winegard's Square Shooter page). Not much good in the VHF (link explains why). For a strong signal field, it's a good choice, and for $8 more, I'd get the amp, especially if you have a long coax run.


It's in the same family, but likely more robust than the RS antenna. (I'll admit I've had to do a lot of reading to remind myself who you are and what you need.)


Frank


----------



## seekermeister

I rechecked TV Fool and it shows 3 stations in the High VHF range...NBC, ABC and PBS. I would not like to lose these because of a limited antenna...is there another choice similar to Square Shooter? I like it's stealth design, and it's ability to block multipath signals.


----------



## Lukes




fbov said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lukes* /forum/post/13555207
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> The more your engineer types post with regards to the tech stuff....the more I'm thinking the CM 7777 is going to make the signals too hot for the locals facing south
> 
> ...QUOTE]
> 
> 
> That's one reason I mentioned rabbit ears; you don't want to aim a really big, amplified antenna at really strong stations.
> 
> 
> DTV being threshold-sensitive, all you need is a minimum signal for a perfect picture. An NTIA coupon box and indoor antenna will give all your TVs the southern stations, as they do through the H260. You may not want all TV on the big antenna, either, unless everyone watches the same transmitters. Here are some thoughts:
> 
> - consider limiting the rotor travel so you can't aim fully South. You may be close enough to receive them using back-gain or a side lobe, and signal reduction isn't needed if you can't aim South.
> 
> - run the antenna to one tuner so any overload issues are in one place. The H260 may have overload protection; I'm not familair with its features. I'm not hearing that any of the CECBs do.
> 
> 
> Frank
> 
> =======
> 
> Here's an even neater idea; put the antenna due North of a big evergreen tree (or plant one due South of the antenna). The tree will be a natural attenuator, preventing overload. Just make sure it's an evergreen; shedding leaves would be bad for your tuner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the response, Frank.
> 
> 
> Didn't mean to offend by butting in on the 1/2 power antenna loss talk with the other poster.
> 
> 
> I only get from 8-11 digital stations on the rabbit ears on the DTB receiver. Half of them fade out.
> 
> 
> I'll try to get a pic uploaded soon of what I am looking at at 190º (mag).
> 
> I got a heaping boatload of God's natural attenuators (broad leafs) looking in the direction, plus, at 30ft from the ground (top of the 3671), it will still have to look over hill another 20ft or so, and that's the ground with there trees on it.
> 
> 
> I'll post a second pic on the street (not mine-2 houses over) standing roughly the same elevation as the base of the chimney so you can see the rise to the hill...the street runs the exact same direction.
> 
> 
> Once again thank you w/ regards to running the antenna to only one receiver for the possible overload scenario. I plan on having a variable attenuator downstream of the FM splitter before the coax goes to the HD receiver to adjust the gain when needed. At this time, I believe I read that only hot VHF would cause overload problems with the TDB 260, but I can't find it now.
> 
> The link below is a review on it. I want to say it is not an issue with the UHF for that particular newer receiver.
> 
> 
> I plan on using outdoor type f hex-crimp connectors with o-rings and spark plug gel inside of each for any connectorization, inside and out. I don't see the need for laying the extra out for the newer compression tool and the Digicon connectors, which I like a lot.
> 
> 
> I'd like to find a local supplier for the weather boots for all connections on the RG6 outside.
> 
> 
> The CM 7777 comes with 3, but, I'll need another on the downstream side of the grounding block., plus, I'll have another grounding block connection from the now Sat install before the ccoax goes into the crawl space.
> 
> 
> Any suggestions as where to look local chain stores, or is it quicker to go on-line? Back in the '70's and '80's, I could buy just about any common / standard electrical part; diode, resistor, cap, transistor, small inductive coils, etc. at Rat Shack.
> 
> 
> Those HD tranmsitters look pretty 'hot'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to the link: http://hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/h260f.html
> 
> 
> 
> from the article....the receiver needs a 20-25 dBM to lock on.
> 
> 
> 2 nights ago most of the 11 channels (5-7) would drop out regularly on the rabbit ears, so I don't think there will be a problem with the signal being too hot in that WRAL was hardest station in the 190º range to pick up.
> 
> 
> My most stable channels were actually with the antenna actually close to the north wall of the house next to a window at that time with the aerials turned 90º to the NE/SW as well as the UHF loop. If it weren't raining tomorrow, I'd drag a power strip, the tv, the receiver on the back deck and play some with that antenna vs reception. Steel clad French doors to the deck with those facing almost due south.
> 
> 
> I knew the rotator was a must with that 3671 for weak and hot channels.
> 
> 
> I'll have to play some more tonight (inside) to get a better idea of reception on the ears. I reconnected back to the Sat in the meantime.
Click to expand...


----------



## seekermeister

n4yqt,


I appreciate the suggestion, but I must emphasize that I need a STEALTH antenna, which is also good at blocking multipath signals.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seekermeister* /forum/post/13561154
> 
> 
> n4yqt,
> 
> 
> I appreciate the suggestion, but I must emphasize that I need a STEALTH antenna, which is also good at blocking multipath signals.



Is this what you're looking for? I have not tried it myself.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...=AD-LACROSSE-A


----------



## seekermeister

Tower Guy,


That would be fine, except that it excludes the hi VHF stations, just like the Square shooter.


EDIT: Looking closer, it is also a multi-directional antenna, which everybody tells me to stay away from, and it said nothing about multipath rejection.


----------



## ctdish

Due to the wave lengths involved any antenna that has directivity on VHF needs to be larger than the square Shooter.

John


----------



## seekermeister

Okay...then what is the smallest directional antenna that will includes Hi VHF and multipath rejection?


----------



## cpcat

Multipath rejection requires high F/B ratio and narrow beamwidth. This means a larger antenna (read: not very stealthy) or stacking smaller ones. There's no other magic way to do it at the antenna.


Alternatively, experiment with antenna position, height, and aiming. Sometimes even non-intuitive aiming can catch a bounced signal which is better than the direct one.


Also, consider a variable attenuator from Radio Shack. It can attenuate the multipath enough for a better lock on the signal. Everyone needs one of these to play with anyway IMO.


Finally, the 5th gen LG and Samsung OTA tuners seem to be better than others rejecting multipath.


----------



## seekermeister

cpcat,


It's beginning to sound as though it would be easier to move to a different apt than to get good reception in this one. I do have a request placed for another unit within my complex, but that may take some time for one to come open. This will certainly play a part in my decision about which one to accept


I typed "antenna attenuator" into the search window of the Radio Shack website, but it found nothing. Is there a different term for it?


My tuner does an "excellent" job of blocking multipath signals...it blocks everything.


----------



## jhe




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seekermeister* /forum/post/13564855
> 
> 
> cpcat,
> 
> 
> It's beginning to sound as though it would be easier to move to a different apt than to get good reception in this one. I do have a request placed for another unit within my complex, but that may take some time for one to come open. This will certainly play a part in my decision about which one to accept
> 
> 
> I typed "antenna attenuator" into the search window of the Radio Shack website, but it found nothing. Is there a different term for it?
> 
> 
> My tuner does an "excellent" job of blocking multipath signals...it blocks everything.



Get a Zenith converter box and try it with whatever is the biggest antenna you can handle even if it is just rabbit ears. If it works wait for a good 6th gen real tuner.


I have the Zenith box and the latest 5th gen Samsung tuner. The Zenith beats it by an order of magnitude. With a simple indoor antenna I can get the same stations on each, but the Zenith will get them at almost every antenna direction. The Samsung requires careful aim.


----------



## cpcat

It's part #15-578. Seems to be discontinued on their website but possibly could still be found at a local RS store. Call with the part # to see. You can also use fixed in-line models or even plain ole splitters to attenuate but that requires more trial and error.


The tuner can make a significant difference. The Samsung DTB-H260 is excellent and fairly reasonable. LG 5th gen tuners are available on the D* H20 STB as well as LG-made HDTV's.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jhe* /forum/post/13565013
> 
> 
> I have the Zenith box and the latest 5th gen Samsung tuner. The Zenith beats it by an order of magnitude. With a simple indoor antenna I can get the same stations on each, but the Zenith will get them at almost every antenna direction. The Samsung requires careful aim.



Interesting. What Zenith model is this? I wonder if it contains the LG 5th gen (Zenith=LG basically). My experience is the LG is slightly better than the Samsung for long distance reception.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seekermeister* /forum/post/13564212
> 
> 
> Okay...then what is the smallest directional antenna that will includes Hi VHF and multipath rejection?



Winegard's HD-769x series is a new line designed for VHF-high and UHF, but they're not small except compared with full range VHF. Nothing that does VHF well will be small! Sorry.

Frank


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lukes* /forum/post/13559591
> 
> 
> ... Didn't mean to offend by butting in on the 1/2 power antenna loss talk with the other poster.
> 
> 
> I only get from 8-11 digital stations on the rabbit ears on the DTB receiver. Half of them fade out.
> 
> 
> I'll try to get a pic uploaded soon of what I am looking at ...



Lukes,

No problem, butting in is joining in. I just wanted to be clear I was responding to a different question.


I only expected you'd get ~8 stations on rabbit ears, and I understand what local terrain can do. You've done the best you can, however it turns out!


Good luck,

Frank


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13558898
> 
> 
> It's called the Square Shooter in the link.[...] Not much good in the VHF (link explains why).



The link says the Square Shooter is only good for vertical polarization at VHF frequencies. This may or may not be a problem. According to the FCC database, some stations are transmitting with circular polarization, which will work with a vertically polarized antenna as well as a horizontal one. It's worth checking if you really need a small antenna.


----------



## PCTools

Time to tap the knowledge base:


First of all, if you are a member of this fourm, we can agree you have a passion for antennas! Pushing the system, and trying to get deep fringe signals and bragging to your neighbors is my fame.










So, I am about ready to pull the trigger on ordering a tower. In my previous post, I quoted out a 50' American tower. Now, I am considering the possibility of the Rohn BX series. That is the 64' or 72' jobs.

(Be ready to open your wallet)


72' BX Series - $1850

Labor $350

Concrete $250

Total $ $2450


Advantage - house bracket not needed, and has a higher wind load capacity.


The American 50' is $850 installed.


So, do you really gain much for the "extra cost" to have the additional 22' in the air? I mean, really?


In my days of Ham Radio, 22 ft meant the world. But for deep fringe TV, I was under the impression that anything over 80 miles is more dependant on weather conditions than anything.


Thanks for your feedback!


----------



## seekermeister

cpcat,


I did find one attenuator:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=TA-8700 


But I'm still very unclear as to what advantage that this would have in my situation. If you reduce the gain with it, won't it reduce all signals, not just the ghost signals?


----------



## seekermeister




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13565446
> 
> 
> Winegard's HD-769x series is a new line designed for VHF-high and UHF, but they're not small except compared with full range VHF. Nothing that does VHF well will be small! Sorry.
> 
> Frank



I ran that number through btoth Google and Winegard Direct and could find nothing.


EDIT: Nevermind, I used n4yqt's link and found it.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13565803
> 
> 
> So, do you really gain much for the "extra cost" to have the additional 22' in the air? I mean, really?



Assuming that trees are no an issue at either height, go to tvfool.com, enter the two heights that you are considering, and compare the results. If a station that you want to get is color coded gray and gains more than 3 db, the extra height may be worth it, if not, buy a second antenna and stack it.


In my case some stations got stronger on a taller tower and some got weaker.


----------



## seekermeister

Since there doesn't seem to be a viable option for an antenna that performs as I want...stealth, high VHF, UHF, directional and multipath rejection, I'm wondering if I might be able to modify the Radio Shack antenna that I have by covering the rear or the antenna case with aluminum foil or something that would give it a high F/B ratio?


----------



## jhe




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/13565053
> 
> 
> Interesting. What Zenith model is this? I wonder if it contains the LG 5th gen (Zenith=LG basically). My experience is the LG is slightly better than the Samsung for long distance reception.



My Zenith converter is the DTT900 january 08 production. It has the LG 6th generation chip. I've found little difference with my older LG and Samsung tuners on sensitivity, sometimes one works better and sometimes the other.

But I use a preamp on my mast, so this may hide the differences.


But the Zenith is far better than my new Samsung DTB-H260F around multipath and that Samsung beats my older 165 model.


For perspective with an indoor antenna:


Old Samsung 165 could get usably about 4 channels.


New Samsung on same antenna gets about 12 including all locals.


The Zenith gets the same but antenna aim is far less critical: eg I get Boston one direction and Worcester at 90 degrees. I can aim so I get both at one position.


None get the fringe stations on indoor antenna, so this is only really a multi-path comparison.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jhe* /forum/post/13566603
> 
> 
> My Zenith converter is the DTT900 january 08 production. It has the LG 6th generation chip. .



Does that converter have HD outputs?


It sounds like you are getting excellent performance for multipath. Do you know for certain that it contains the 6th Gen LG chip?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seekermeister* /forum/post/13565979
> 
> 
> cpcat,
> 
> 
> I did find one attenuator:
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=TA-8700
> 
> 
> But I'm still very unclear as to what advantage that this would have in my situation. If you reduce the gain with it, won't it reduce all signals, not just the ghost signals?



That should be very similar to the RS model.


These have been used historically to attenuate multipath for analog signals. It will attenuate the overall signal but also the ghost signal(s) and can depending on the situation improve the lock with a digital signal as well.


I use one to fine tune the gain after a post-amplifier right before my tuners.


----------



## Davinleeds

Figures that the analog boxes would have the 6th. I've been waiting as the DTB-H260F isn't quite enough. This one?
http://www.zenith.com/dtv/downloads/...spec_sheet.pdf


----------



## seekermeister

I'm curious, all of the discussion about which generation chipset that a tuner uses makes me wonder if a generation is the same regardless of the manufacturer? My tuner has what it calls a 7th generation chipset, but I'm not sure how they count it.


----------



## holl_ands

The R-S "Disc" antenna (Antenna Craft ) is also stealthy, although like ANY

small antenna isn't going to do much for VHF (minus 6.6 dBd Hi-VHF gain):
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=family 
http://www.antennacraft.net/HDX1000.htm 


If the "Disc" isn't enough for VHF, you could add a VHF-only antenna, such as

a DIY Folded Dipole (0 dBd gain on cut" channel), using UVSJ UHF/VHF Coupler:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=UVSJ 
http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html 

You might get away with an indoor location for the VHF antenna, although

the UHF antenna should be outside for best performance.


FYI: Antennas Direct also has a variable RF attenuator:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/attenuator.html 

which looks the same as this OTHER one on SolidSignal:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=1296F


----------



## holl_ands

I just updated the "CECB Features List" spread sheet for the

NTIA Coupon eligible Converter Boxes:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...post13567441 

If you read through the thread you will find that several of the (few)

available boxes have audio and lock-up problems....be forewarned....


ALL CECB converter boxes must meet NTIA performance requirements, derived from

ATSC A/74 which could not be met by "5th Gen" chips....hence ALL are "6th Gen":
http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/DTVmanufacturers.pdf 


We should be seeing "6th Gen" performance in other products

produced since about mid-2007.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seekermeister* /forum/post/13566260
> 
> 
> Since there doesn't seem to be a viable option for an antenna that performs as I want...stealth, high VHF, UHF, directional and multipath rejection, I'm wondering if I might be able to modify the Radio Shack antenna that I have by covering the rear or the antenna case with aluminum foil or something that would give it a high F/B ratio?



1/2 inch chicken wire (available at Lowe's or Home Depot) is a useful tweak added to the reflector on a yagi/corner reflector type antenna. This will only improve the _uhf_ section performance however and I frankly don't know how it would effect the vhf performance on a combo type antenna. Cut it to proper size (one half for each half of the reflector) and attach with zip ties.


This will increase wind loading on the mast. I've compromised by only covering about 2/3 of each side of the reflector.


----------



## seekermeister




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13567609
> 
> 
> The R-S "Disc" antenna (Antenna Craft ) is also stealthy, although like ANY
> 
> small antenna isn't going to do much for VHF (minus 6.6 dBd Hi-VHF gain):
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=family
> http://www.antennacraft.net/HDX1000.htm



Though I hadn't mentioned it for a while, that R-S Disc is what I have now. Analog stations come in snowy, and HD/digital stations don't come in at all most of the time.


> Quote:
> If the "Disc" isn't enough for VHF, you could add a VHF-only antenna, such as
> 
> a DIY Folded Dipole (0 dBd gain on cut" channel), using UVSJ UHF/VHF Coupler:
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=UVSJ
> http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html
> 
> You might get away with an indoor location for the VHF antenna, although
> 
> the UHF antenna should be outside for best performance.



I'm not sure that I understand, is that coupler simply a splitter or something more? Do you think that it might work to simply use a pair of rabbit ears that I have, along with the Disc? If so, would it matter if the coax between the coupler and the antenna were the same length and type?


> Quote:
> FYI: Antennas Direct also has a variable RF attenuator:
> http://www.antennasdirect.com/attenuator.html
> 
> which looks the same as this OTHER one on SolidSignal:
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=1296F



Would I need the attenuator with the 2 antennas described above?


----------



## seekermeister




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/13567937
> 
> 
> 1/2 inch chicken wire (available at Lowe's or Home Depot) is a useful tweak added to the reflector on a yagi/corner reflector type antenna. This will only improve the _uhf_ section performance however and I frankly don't know how it would effect the vhf performance on a combo type antenna. Cut it to proper size (one half for each half of the reflector) and attach with zip ties.
> 
> 
> This will increase wind loading on the mast. I've compromised by only covering about 2/3 of each side of the reflector.



The only problem with using chicken wire is that there isn't a good way to attach it to a Radio Shack Disc. I was thinking about something that I could simply tape to the antenna long enough to see if it would work.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seekermeister* /forum/post/13568498
> 
> 
> I'm not sure that I understand, is that coupler simply a splitter or something more? Do you think that it might work to simply use a pair of rabbit ears that I have, along with the Disc? If so, would it matter if the coax between the coupler and the antenna were the same length and type?
> 
> 
> ?



The UVSJ might be the better option to provide increased vhf performance. You could even couple an indoor pair of rabbit ears to your incoming downlead just to try. The lengths of coax won't matter as the UVSJ will filter all the vhf off of the downlead and any spurious uhf from the rabbit ears. Attach the downlead from the RS antenna to the uhf input on the UVSJ, the rabbit ears to the vhf input on the UVSJ, and the common output to the tuner/tv. If your RS antenna is amplified, be sure to do the coupling after the power supply to the RS antenna.


----------



## jhe




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/13566651
> 
> 
> Does that converter have HD outputs?
> 
> 
> It sounds like you are getting excellent performance for multipath. Do you know for certain that it contains the 6th Gen LG chip?



Converters are for NTSC tv and coupon forces it not to have HD.


That is why I updated my Samsung 165 to the 260 even though it is 1 gen older. I will update more tuners with HD tuners soon as someone makes one that can match the 6th gen LG chip.


My multipath is very bad and I have to re-aim my antenna even for rain with all tuners older tuners.


And yes the LG 6th gen chip is in the Zenith.


I will hopefully try some other chips in converters when I get coupons so I know what else might work for me.


But everything depends on location. You may not have multipath that bad and just need a better antenna and preamp, or have blocking so need a tuner with more selectivity. There are lots of differences and no useful specs on anything that I can find.


Be nice if other 6th gen chips work well too but I wouldn't count on it. And be nice if there was a floor spec for more than just converter boxes.


----------



## seekermeister

cpcat,


Thanks, I just ordered the coupler, but since I use PayPal eChecks, it will probably be about a week before I receive it. Whether it works or not, it's worth a shot. But I'm still hoping that you might respond to my question regarding the chickenwire/foil aspect.


----------



## Konrad2

> I did find one attenuator


> If you reduce the gain with it, won't it reduce all signals,

> not just the ghost signals?


An attenuator is useful if your signal is too strong and the tuner

is overloaded. The distortion is reduced a lot more than the signal.

If your signal is too strong, reducing it isn't bad.


----------



## seekermeister




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/13569638
> 
> 
> An attenuator is useful if your signal is too strong and the tuner
> 
> is overloaded. The distortion is reduced a lot more than the signal.
> 
> If your signal is too strong, reducing it isn't bad.



Understood, but in my case I doubt it would be of any help, because none of the HD signals exceed 85%, which I have been told is too low. I need to increase these signals, while decreasing the multipath signals.


----------



## cpcat

Actually an attenuator can be used for more than just preventing overload at the tuner. With multipath the problem isn't overload, but signals arriving from more than one direction and slightly ahead of or behind the direct signal. The attenuator can produce a less ghosty image on analog and more consistent locks with digital by attenuating the indirect signals down closer to the threshold of sensitivity on the tuner (therefore the tuner can more easily "ignore" them).


----------



## seekermeister

CPcat,


The thing that I still fail to understand is when attenuating a ghost signal down closer to the tuner's sensitivity threshold, isn't it also doing the same thing to the desired signal? I'm assuming that when the threshold is met, that it that the desired signal is remaining, but at a lower signal strength than before. Since none of my HD signals are greater than 85% (and many much less), will the remainder be sufficient?


----------



## fbov

Love to see a lively thread! This is mostly to seekermeister.


cpcat's attentuator idea is interesting: minimize the signal until there's only one above the noise to lock on! It should work but a multi-path tolerant tuner is a lot easier!


holl_ands' UVSJ coupler is for joining two antennas from different bands, so he provides a link to a home-brew dipole site. Dipoles work for any frequency, depending on their size. VHF high is 174-216MHz. 1/2 wave is ~27-33", so make a 30" dipole. I'd attach a balun at the feed point (where it goes vertical) and try a 2'x3' mesh reflector 12-15" behind the dipole to increase directional gain.


cpcat's chicken wire is called hardware cloth in my stores, and it's much finer mesh than you need for Ch 14-52. In the pictured application, it could enhance high frequency gain on an antenna optimized for 800 MHz (Ch 70). That said, it is stiffer than most wire meshs and is well suited to applications with minimal physical support.


"HD-769x series" is shorthand for a range of models starting HD-769 with the suffix usually indicating reception range. Sorry for the confusion!


Seekermeister, I don't see anything you can do to modify an existing commercial compact antenna to improve VHF gain. The best idea I see (and I make antennas) is to make the 30" dipole, run it into a balun and combine it with the UHF antenna, either in the aforementioned coupler, or if signals are still too weak, a dual UHF/VHF input pre-amp, and see what you get for VHF reception. If it's close to acceptable, add a reflector and see that helps.


Talking with a buddy last night about radio astronomy, and a 30" dipole with reflector is exactly what I envisioned for his meteor detection project. I'll post a pic when I'm done.


Frank


----------



## Konrad2

>> An attenuator is useful if your signal is too strong and the tuner

>> is overloaded. The distortion is reduced a lot more than the signal.

>> If your signal is too strong, reducing it isn't bad.

>

> Understood, but in my case I doubt it would be of any help, because none

> of the HD signals exceed 85%, which I have been told is too low. I need

> to increase these signals, while decreasing the multipath signals.


An amp will make the signal stronger, but will do nothing to help multipath.


A more directional antenna will decrease multipath, and will also give a

stronger signal.


You can try changing the aim of the antenna in hopes of aiming a null at

the reflection giving you multipath. If you know where the reflection

is coming from (a mountain perhaps) you can try to find an antenna with

a null at the correct angle.


You can use two antennas to create a null in the desired direction:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html#TAT


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13571507
> 
> 
> cpcat's attentuator idea is interesting: minimize the signal until there's only one above the noise to lock on! It should work but a multi-path tolerant tuner is a lot easier!



I don't think that the attenuator idea will work to tame digital multipath. If there is multipath the dynamic equalizer needs a higher signal to noise ratio to decode the signal.


In an analog system the attenuator could bury a ghost in the noise. It wouldn't really eliminate the ghost, but you wouldn't see it either.


----------



## seekermeister

fbov,


It seems that even though I have my options set to send an instant email notification by default, if I forget to use the advanced reply to set this on each post, I get no notification. Thus I'm tardy in my response, but I wanted to let you know that I read your last post to my with interest. It seems that I'm going to be doing alot more experimenting that I imagined at the start. HD is nice, but it seems to be a challenge to get it without paying for it.


----------



## Lukes




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13565473
> 
> 
> Lukes,
> 
> No problem, butting in is joining in. I just wanted to be clear I was responding to a different question.
> 
> 
> I only expected you'd get ~8 stations on rabbit ears, and I understand what local terrain can do. You've done the best you can, however it turns out!
> 
> 
> Good luck,
> 
> Frank



Thanks.


Stuff is suppose to be arriving this week. I still need to get some hex crimpers, weather boots, strippers, connectors, sil-gel, and especially a good in-line lightning arrestor to work with some later rerouting. Right now, the existing RG6 for the SAT will do what I need for initial setup.


I realize even though I'll be well grounded outside, adding the extra arrestor and the current surge protector that has built in MOV's for surge protection on the coax 'in' & 'outs' too will be the best I can do for lightning protection.


'The trees and my general location ('The Hole') will make LD HDTV reception a challenge to some degree, if possible at all. I am rather confident that the 8 locals will be no problem at this time with that monster 3671. I ordered the CM 7777 as insurance.


None of the local analog signals come in clear 24/7. Early morning and late in the evening the signals improve to my location.


I'm figuring on pointing the 3671 at 225º on the initial start up for the first scan and by passing the pre-amp initially. Then, I'll zero the rotator on magnetic north and start a swing from 75º to 290º for a look at overall reception.


Hopefully, I'll have good weather this coming weekend.


----------



## PCTools

I am surprised you did not cover the entire reflector with chicken wire.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/13567937
> 
> 
> 1/2 inch chicken wire (available at Lowe's or Home Depot) is a useful tweak added to the reflector on a yagi/corner reflector type antenna. This will only improve the _uhf_ section performance however and I frankly don't know how it would effect the vhf performance on a combo type antenna. Cut it to proper size (one half for each half of the reflector) and attach with zip ties.
> 
> 
> This will increase wind loading on the mast. I've compromised by only covering about 2/3 of each side of the reflector.


----------



## Blackduck

I am trying to find a good replacement for a Radio Shack VU-190. I am looking at using separate UHF VHF units. As far as UHF goes, I've tried a Channel Master 4228, a Winegard 9095 and one of the new Winegard 7697 combos. The Channel Master was the best of the 3, but none were as good as the Radio Shack. I am at zip code 02891, at sea level, with the antenna outside, on the roof, about 25 feet off the ground. I have been using a Channel Master 7777 on all, but found the Spartan 3 to work better on VHF 13. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated, as I am beginning to have myself quite an antenna collection. Thanks, Walter


----------



## icrnk

 http://www.hammacher.com/publish/746...sted_best_hero 


Well, I'm going to try it out anyway. I currently use a Silver Sensor in area code 77429. Overall I'm pretty satisfied with it but sometimes it has a bad day where I have to adjust it multiple times throughout the day. I think it happens more when it's cloudy or raining. Also, channel 8 (PBS) is horrible. I'll compare this to the Silver Sensor and worse case scenario if it's no better I'll just give it to my grandfather as he needs a new antenna anyway; he's in area code 77008. I hope it's at least equal to the Silver Sensor. Anyone in the 77429 area have any antenna's they had great success in using?


----------



## seekermeister

I just ordered an antenuator to go along with the coupler, and now I'm thinking about how to connect these along with the inline amplifier that came with the antenna. I'm thinking about making a mounting board that I can hang on a DVD cabinet that abuts the patio door, but when it comes to coax, about all that I know is the lengths and connectors. To do this neatly, I need some short lengths (4" or less), or if such a thing exists, some M-M adapters that would connect these items together directly. The shortest that I have found are 8" flat coaxes for passing through doors and windows, but even these are too long and have F-F connectors. What is available?


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icrnk* /forum/post/13578340
> 
> http://www.hammacher.com/publish/746...sted_best_hero
> 
> ...



Anyone notice this in the description (emphasis added):

"Tested in urban, suburban, and rural environments, the antenna receives UHF, VHF, and local high-definition broadcasts (requires an HD-ready TV to receive HD signals)."


As a recall, an "HD-ready TV" is one without an ATSC tuner ... makes you wonder how the comparison antenna did!


Frank


----------



## holl_ands

Why don't you count 'em and let us know:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...-06-1082A2.pdf 

This list is dated May2006, with only a handful of later additions.

Unfortunately, later DTV Channel Election lists don't include

all three NTSC/DTVNow/DTV2009 columns.


Let me get you started:

Only Eureka in far northern California elected to use Low-VHF.

49 states to go....


----------



## holl_ands

Be advised that MOV devices will degrade over time, so figure on periodic replacement.


Here is more info re alternative "Gas Tube" protective devices:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6post8591196 


Ideally you could use all three: Spark Gap and Gas Tube at entry point, MOV as a last resort

protection closer to equipment location so you can readily bypass to test whether it's degraded.


----------



## Blackduck

Anyone Know where I can view holl-ands old tests on 7 different baluns?


----------



## Konrad2

> I need some short lengths (4" or less), or if such a thing exists,

> some M-M adapters


Yes, they make both F-F and M-M 'F' connector adapters. Total length

about 1 inch or less.


Pico Macom F-71 $9.99 (for 20) (a year or 2 ago, probably higher now)
http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/D/D7.pdf 


$1.99 (up from $1.35 2 years ago, hello stagflation)
http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?...%5Fid=33%2D480


----------



## holl_ands

Since the link has been broken, I'm reposting the fol. *BALUN LOSS* test.


Since I no longer have access to a room full of test equipment, I had to improvise when I

had this collection of baluns and wondered which one had the lowest loss, esp. after I saw fol:
http://www.kyes.com/antenna/balun.html 
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html 


Most cable boxes have ability to display received signal level for currently tuned channel.


I found a "reference" balun by connecting two (matching) baluns back-to-back and dividing

loss by two (it was also my lowest loss balun). From there I could measure loss in all the others.

Inherent measurement accuracy is about +/- 0.5 dB.


BTW: I was surprised to find a D.C. SHORT on coax port of both Outdoor Baluns

from Channel Master...one came with CM-4228, the other was on-line order.

 

Balun Loss Using TWC-SD Freqs RevC.zip 15.7158203125k . file


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Blackduck* /forum/post/13580992
> 
> 
> Anyone Know where I can view holl-ands old tests on 7 different baluns?



Per your PM, I reposted BALUN LOSS spread sheet in Antenna/Rotator/Preamp thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...546066&page=32


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13580269
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, later DTV Channel Election lists don't include
> 
> all three NTSC/DTVNow/DTV2009 columns.
> 
> 
> Let me get you started:
> 
> Only Eureka in far northern California elected to use Low-VHF.
> 
> 49 states to go....



That was my impetus for creating the spreadsheet (link below).


There are 40 slated to be on Low-VHF. 37 had elected Low-VHF, but 3 were recently added to the list (WUOA, KIVV & KIDA).


As best as I can determine there are 29 now, with only one on 6 at 0.1kW. With 9 stations to be on 6 next year, I fear they are flying into the dark. 16 of the current 29 Low-VHF stations are baling out of the band.


16 stations are also moving DTV operations from UHF to Low-VHF in '09. Many of them are in for a shock.


See the VHF-LO DMA tab on my spreadsheet for more info.


----------



## onan38

Hi everyone need some antenna help. I just installed the Zenith converter box for my 93 year old grandmother with my indoor terk ampflied antenna before 5:00pm she is getting alot of freezing issues after 5:00 when things seem to calm down it gets better.My problem is her house is very old and mounting a antenna on her chimney is not an option.I need to mount a good light weight antenna that will do the job any ideas? Here is her station info off antennaweb.


* yellow

uhf WKON-DT 52.1 PBS LEXINGTON, KY 53° 18.4 44

* green

uhf WLEX-DT 18.1 NBC LEXINGTON, KY 125° 42.4 39

* lt green

vhf WKYT-DT 27.1 CBS LEXINGTON, KY 125° 41.8 13

* lt green

uhf WTVQ-DT 36.1 ABC LEXINGTON, KY 125° 42.4 40

* red

vhf WHAS-DT 11.1 ABC LOUISVILLE, KY Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 276° 42.4 11

* blue

uhf WHAS-DT 11.1 ABC LOUISVILLE, KY 276° 42.4 55

* violet

vhf WKRC-DT 12.1 CBS CINCINNATI, OH Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 34° 61.1 12

* violet

uhf WAVE-DT 2.1 NBC LOUISVILLE, KY 277° 41.4 47

* violet

uhf WLKY-DT 32.1 CBS LOUISVILLE, KY 277° 41.4 26

* violet

uhf WBKI-DT 34.1 CW CAMPBELLSVILLE, KY 205° 60.2 19

* violet

uhf WDRB-DT 41.1 FOX LOUISVILLE, KY 275° 42.4 49

* violet

vhf WDKY-DT 56.1 FOX DANVILLE, KY 133° 51.8 4

* violet

uhf WMYO-DT 58.1 MNT SALEM, IN 275° 42.4 51


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/13583461
> 
> 
> There are 40 slated to be on Low-VHF. As best as I can determine there are 29 now, with only one on 6 at 0.1kW.
> 
> 
> 16 stations are also moving DTV operations from UHF to Low-VHF in '09.



I'd postulate that the surprise will be that channels 5 and 6 won't be as bad as channels 2 and 3. Like you found out, there is no high power DTV channel 6 that is currently on the air. Therefore there is no good test case.


I have two reasons for my feeling.


The first is that noise drops about 1 db per channel. This means that the man made noise on channel 6 will be about 4 db lower than channel 2. This factor is well known and documented.


The second reason I have not seen published. It's due to the interaction with the receiving antenna with the ground in front of the antenna. Ray tracing programs show that an antenna at 30' on channel 2 has a main lobe that is steered upward by 8 degrees and has a response at +1 degree that is 14 db below the main beam. The same antenna on channel 6 is steered upward by 5.7 degrees and is down by 10 db at +1 degree.


The combination of the two factors indicate that, on average, DTV reception on channel 6 should be 8 db better than channel 2.


Do you think that 8 db is enough extra power?


----------



## seekermeister

Konrad2,


Thanks, those splice adapters look like just what I need.


To anyone that has the patience to answer another very basic question, there are a bunch of different types of coaxes...RG this or RG that, with different ohms values. How much difference would one coax be from another in terms of the picture it provides?


----------



## Konrad2

> Thanks, those splice adapters look like just what I need.


You're welcome. Most filters have female F connectors on both ends,

as do splitters, so I have a bunch of these in use.


> To anyone that has the patience to answer another very basic

> question, there are a bunch of different types of coaxes...RG this

> or RG that, with different ohms values. How much difference would

> one coax be from another in terms of the picture it provides?


Video coax is 75 Ohms.


RG59 - cheap, avoid if possible


RG6 - this is what you probably want


Lowes carries RG6 quad shield with gold plated connectors and claims

to be weatherproof.


Some recommend Belden 7915A RG-6 tri-shield with solid copper core and

sweep tested to 3GHz.


RG11 - If you are fighting for every fraction of a dB, consider RG11.

The center conductor is too large for standard female F connectors,

so you need connectors with a center pin that steps it down to the

correct diameter.


Don't use Ethernet coax, it's 50 Ohm.


----------



## Blackduck

I am trying to improve my reception. More gain with different antennas hasn't helped. Now I wonder if a clue to my problems are in the snr, agc numbers.

Typical readings are signal strength 80, snr 20, agc 110%. What could be causing these poor numbers? Thanks Walter p.S. If I am posting this in the wrong place, could someone let me know.


----------



## PCTools

I have been playing around with 2 parabolic (CM 4251's), and holy cow these things are monsters! They don't look so big on top of a 50' tower, but gosh they are a pain to move on the ground. Jeez...


I could put one in each hand and be lifted off the ground in a wind storm. But hey, if you like UHF, you just can't beat these. If I only could ship these UPS, I could help you guys out.


The Parabolic Man - Chad


----------



## AntAltMike

By the way, as far as the outdoor baluns with separate, solid leads are concerned, the loss will vary by two or three dB at different frequencies just depending on how you shape the leads. I often use the little mini "Tootsie-roll" sized indoor baluns outside, as mine have less loss and more consistent performance than do the ones designed for outdoor use, but I make sure to weatherize them.


----------



## holl_ands

*Falcon_77:*

Where's the "below" link????


----------



## Dave47




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13581150
> 
> 
> BTW: I was surprised to find a D.C. SHORT on coax port of both Outdoor Baluns
> 
> from Channel Master...one came with CM-4228, the other was on-line order.



I can't say what is in your baluns, but some have every terminal shorted at DC. Those baluns could be wound like transformer style H:

http://www.minicircuits.com/products/transformers.html 


David


----------



## faberryman

I have a couple of questions. I live in the suburbs and am surrounded by transmitters. The good news is that I am close - none is farther away than 10 miles; the bad news is they are in different directions.


1. With the exception of one channel - channel 10 - all of my HDTV stations are either at 12-13 degrees or 186 degrees. In other words I need an antenna that will pick up from the front and from the back although it can be quite directional. I don't won't to put up one of those 8-bay monsters. Would something like the Antenna Direct DB2 or DB4 work. Would a directional antenna like the Antenna Direct SR15 be an option? Could I get two SR15s, point them in different directionss and combine them. If so, how far apart vertically would I need to mount them.


2. Channel 10 is at 330 degrees and has the weakest transmitter. I was thinking about getting a single channel 5-element yagi like the Dehli (Jerrold) 5Y10S ane join it to the UHF antenna(s) with a VHF/UHF combiner. The question is: I have a unused 6-element RadioShack FM only antenna. Could I just cut down the elements and use it for channel 10. If so, what length should the elements be?


Thanks.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Blackduck* /forum/post/13587619
> 
> 
> I am trying to improve my reception. More gain with different antennas hasn't helped. Now I wonder if a clue to my problems are in the snr, agc numbers.
> 
> Typical readings are signal strength 80, snr 20, agc 110%. What could be causing this poor numbers? Thanks Walter p.S. If I am posting this in the wrong place, could someone let me know.



Walter,

In most cases, the numbers on DTV signal displays are only useful to the user for comparing stations. There is no cross-product calibration that allows you to compare your results with mine.


However, a wonderful gentleman named Andy S. Lee has developed a web site that can tell you what kind of reception challenges you may have. Use your street address - it's hidden in the display - and post your results here along with what's in your rig.

tvfool.com


I bet you get some bites ...

Frank


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dave47* /forum/post/13588319
> 
> 
> I can't say what is in your baluns, but some have every terminal shorted at DC. Those baluns could be wound like transformer style H:
> 
> http://www.minicircuits.com/products/transformers.html



Ditto for style K in those drawings.


Can anyone post the drawing from the ARL book showing a very common 75 to 300 ohm balun that uses a tapped transformer and therefore has conductive paths between all ports? I haven't seen it in a few years, but it's been there through successive revisions.


A few years ago, when I was tryng to make my own ground loop isolator using back-to-back baluns. I was surprised to learn that more of the ones I had lying around conducted DC from an input path to an output path than did not.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *faberryman* /forum/post/13588427
> 
> 
> I have a couple of questions.
> 
> ...
> 
> 1. With the exception of one channel - channel 10 - all of my HDTV stations are either at 12-13 degrees or 186 degrees. In other words I need an antenna that will pick up from the front and from the back although it can be quite directional.
> 
> ...
> 
> 2. Channel 10 is at 330 degrees and has the weakest transmitter. ... Could I just cut down the elements and use it for channel 10. If so, what length should the elements be?
> 
> 
> Thanks.



One easy option when stations are 180* apart is to use a multi-bay antenna like the DB4 or CM4221 without it's reflector. However, these are UHF-only antennas and it's not clear what frequency channel 10 uses now and post-transition. An ideal situation would be a single placement UHF antenna for most channels plus a specifically aimed VHF antenna for the distant VHF10, combined in an unpowered UHF/VHF combiner. If VHF10 is still weak, add a VHF pre-amp at the mast.


Throw us a TVFool chart (as I suggested to Walter) and you'll get a better opinion on your situation.


Frank


----------



## seekermeister

Konrad2,


At first I just read your response in the email notification regarding the splice connectors. Fortunately, I looked again at this thread, because the notification didn't contain the part about the cables. When I bought my cables, I grapped the first thing that I saw without paying much attention. Hopefully, the cables are marked, I will have to check.


I do recall reading a promo at one website that offered 50 ohm cable for video, would that be good? Less resistance sounds like a good thing.


EDIT: OOPS! I had missed your comment about ethernet coax. I guess 50 ohm isn't a good thing.


----------



## Dave47




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/13588475
> 
> 
> Ditto for style K in those drawings.



True, but Minicircuits only sells K as a 1:1.










I have some other styles here on my bench at work, but they are in excess of $600 each. Still, they have all ports shorted at DC.


David


----------



## faberryman

"channel 10" is channel 4.1 using real channel 10.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13588127
> 
> *Falcon_77:*
> 
> Where's the "below" link????



In my signature.


My concern as respects channel 6 is adjacent and co-channel FM interference.


----------



## fbov

faberryman,

I'd still like to see that TVFool chart. Mine's attached, as an example. It shows the Big Three: frequency, direction and strength.


I made some suggestions based on what you described. If all your stations are UHF except 4.1 on VHF10, I think you'd be happy with what I suggested, but I can't tell you anything about the tradeoffs - what stations you'd lose compared with other options - without seeing your entire signal field.


Yes, mine is very sparse; I live in a local low spot. Hopefully yours will be far richer.


Frank


----------



## seekermeister

fbov,



> Quote:
> Yes, mine is very sparse; I live in a local low spot. Hopefully yours will be far richer.



It's no wonder that you know about antennas, you must live in a pit to have such low signals from so close. At least most of them are all in one direction.


----------



## faberryman

Here is my chart. I am only interested in 2.1, 4.1, 5.1, 8.1 and 17.1.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/13590353
> 
> 
> In my signature.
> 
> 
> My concern as respects channel 6 is adjacent and co-channel FM interference.



Hmm, somehow the Display Signature box in my UserCP was unchecked

(I'm sure this was working not too long ago)...

I also found it in your Public Profile. Thnx.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dave47* /forum/post/13588319
> 
> 
> I can't say what is in your baluns, but some have every terminal shorted at DC. Those baluns could be wound like transformer style H:
> 
> http://www.minicircuits.com/products/transformers.html
> 
> 
> David



Designing a Balun with a simple DC blocking capacitor prevents shorts.

NONE of the other Baluns had a DC Short.


I consider it to be a potential problem if someone decides to bypass the Preamp,

or if a user has no clue what happened to DC voltage on a shared TV/SAT cable.


----------



## Mloot

I am using a pre-amp with an outdoor antenna for my pc's tuner cards. If I send the signal through the coax input/output on my surge surpressor, will it dampen the boosted signal from my antenna?


----------



## Dave47




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13592695
> 
> 
> Designing a Balun with a simple DC blocking capacitor prevents shorts.
> 
> NONE of the other Baluns had a DC Short.
> 
> 
> I consider it to be a potential problem if someone decides to bypass the Preamp,
> 
> or if a user has no clue what happened to DC voltage on a shared TV/SAT cable.



I agree with you, but someone decided to build 1 million of them and save $0.02 per balun on the caps. He then reported a cost savings of $20K to his management and got a fat bonus at the end of the year.










My blocking caps double as bias tees, are rated to 20GHz, and are completely necessary.


David


----------



## AntAltMike

For the purposes of overdrawing current from a pre-amp power supply, any balun that has a conductive path across its power input side for all pratical purposes "shorts" the power supply.


For the purposes of hum isolation, baluns with a vexing conductive path from the input to the output are often said to have a "Short" from the input to the output, and while the path through the inductive conductor isn't really any "shorter" than a path through a capacitor might otherwise be, the effect of that path is often to complete a path to a resistive antenna load that "shorts out" the power supply.


----------



## mlmahon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mloot* /forum/post/13592750
> 
> 
> I am using a pre-amp with an outdoor antenna for my pc's tuner cards. If I send the signal through the coax input/output on my surge surpressor, will it dampen the boosted signal from my antenna?



Send an email to the manufacturer for the insertion loss spec. I would guess around .5 - 1.0 db.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mloot* /forum/post/13592750
> 
> 
> I am using a pre-amp with an outdoor antenna for my pc's tuner cards. If I send the signal through the coax input/output on my surge surpressor, will it dampen the boosted signal from my antenna?



MOV devices gradually degrade over time as they drain off static electricity.

So it's something you need to periodically bypass to see if it's a problem.


I have a particular distaste for coax MOVs built into a power strip...do you

really want static electricity being dumped anywhere near your gear???


Antenna protective devices should be installed at the building entry point.


PS: Gas Tube devices don't degrade, although they have higher break down voltage:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6post8591196


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Blackduck* /forum/post/13578259
> 
> 
> I am trying to find a good replacement for a Radio Shack VU-190. I am looking at using separate UHF VHF units. As far as UHF goes, I've tried a Channel Master 4228, a Winegard 9095 and one of the new Winegard 7697 combos. The Channel Master was the best of the 3, but none were as good as the Radio Shack. I am at zip code 02891, at sea level, with the antenna outside, on the roof, about 25 feet off the ground. I have been using a Channel Master 7777 on all, but found the Spartan 3 to work better on VHF 13. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated, as I am beginning to have myself quite an antenna collection. Thanks, Walter



Based on zipcode location, I would be concerned re desensitization of your

high gain Preamp by nearby WPXQ (analog & digital) North of you and

two other tower locations further WNW, esp. when you point antenna that way.


FOX & CW are about 70 dB LOWER than strongest stations. That means the

Preamp MUST operate with maximized SFDR (Spurious Free Dynamic Range):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6290253 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...546066&&page=4 


I've been slowly working on a revision to the overload calculation

spread sheet....maybe I should take the time to dust it off again....


First of all we need you to either post tvfool results for both digital & analog

stations NOW and Post-Feb2009...or provide location to whatever accuracy

you are comfortable with, such as LAT/LONG to 3 or 4 (or only 2) decimals....

or nearby cross streets so we can "find" you.


ALSO, which stations do you get acceptable & unacceptable reception now.

Which are your first priorities to improve???


BTW: You are only about 15 miles E of Falcon_77 in Mystic, CT.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *faberryman* /forum/post/13591953
> 
> 
> Here is my chart. I am only interested in 2.1, 4.1, 5.1, 8.1 and 17.1.



You weren't kidding about being surrounded by transmitters! Forget everything I said, since your "top 5" networks are mostly VHF, all LOS, in 3 different directions and provide strong signals.


What are you using now? Have you tried any of the indoor UHF/VHF combos? My reception was marginal-but-present with a simple UHF clip-on bowtie. Your signals are 20dB higher so I don't see you needing a roof top antenna. Crutchfield has a good selection, at a price, that serves as a starting point.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-O7eesxP...u.aspx?g=15920 


You need with both VHF elements (rabbit ears) and some sort of smaller element for UHF. I have no personal experience with it, but I've heard good reports on the Terk HDTVi, a log-periodic dipole array for UHF and rabbit ears for VHF. If you get an amplified model (many are), make sure you can bypass the amp since you're not likely to need it!


Another option is to put an outdoor antenna in a signal deprived area like your attic. The issue here is that gain comes at the price of directionality, and you need a broad directional pattern or a rotor. That's why I'm thinking indoor combo.


The potential issue hanging over all this is multipath - reflected signals - and your tuner's ability to deal with it. Multipath signals degrade the tuner's ability to lock onto the carrier, and carrier drop outs mean an unwatchable picture. There are things you can do with antennas to limit multipath, but they all rely on directional designs, and that makes it unlikely to find 1 antenna arrangement that works for all stations and directions.


There are also things you can do with tuners, and the new 6th gen tuners are exhibiting superior multipath performance compared with prior versions in some applications. The subsidized ones are cheap after the NTIA $40 coupon, but won't do HD, and their quality varies. You can read more in neighboring threads.


So I should modify my question; what are you using now - both for antennas and for tuners?


Frank


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seekermeister* /forum/post/13591129
> 
> 
> fbov,
> 
> It's no wonder that you know about antennas, you must live in a pit to have such low signals from so close. At least most of them are all in one direction.



Please don't confuse me with people who know a lot about antennas. They know I'm not one of them, just a dabbler with a bit of curiosity and a willingness to share my (somewhat rudimentary) understanding in layman's terms.


And I am the poster child for exact locations in TVFool, -25dB down at my house compared with my zip code.


Frank


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RayL Jr.* /forum/post/5711296
> 
> 
> Gathered up some recommended antennas, boosters, etc... for OTA HDTV reception...... I try to keep separated different antenna types & categories for different uses/needs... *Any other models to recommend or those listed to comment on?*
> 
> 
> Special thanks to AVS Member *holl_ands*, *Wendell R. Breland* & *videobruce* for additions & updates.



Given the influx of newcomers to DTV asking about indoor antennas, could a separate sticky thread be created for this specific topic?


----------



## Blackduck

I don't know how to post my TVfool results without having to type them in. I can give you a street address in the area that should be more than accurate enough. Try 2 South Fairway Avenue, Westerly, RI 02891. Right now, I receive WPXQ and WEDN perfectly. I have ben receiving WPRI, WJAR, and WLNE good most of the time. Today, however, I can"t receive any of those three reliably. WLWC and WNAC can be good a lot of the time, not as good as the other three. WSBE is seldom good, nor, are the Boston stations, but I don't expect to be able to get them. I am looking to improve reliability. Thanks holl-ands

and Frank for your time and help. Walter


----------



## ctdish

Is this what you got? You are about 15 miles east of me but showing lower signal levels. Is your report of reception for analog or digital channels?

John


----------



## jcs444

I recently bought a 13 inch analog/digital tv and put a radioshack vhf back-of-set snap-in dipole and uhf clip-on bowtie (both of which have 300 ohm connectors) and joined them with a double 300 ohm to single 75 ohm combiner that pushes onto the 75 ohm connector on the back of the tv. I've read posts in this forum that discourage the use of push on coax cables. Will this push-on combiner have the same type of signal loss as a push on coax? Is a similar combiner that screws on available somewhere? I'm getting good digital reception right now but am wondering if this combiner might cause a problem eventually.


----------



## Blackduck

John-Yes my report is close to that, Mine are all a little bit stronger, some maybe 5 dBm or so. I am speaking about digital only.


----------



## Blackduck

For anyone keeping track, most of my stations were all over the place last night, from 0 to 100% signal strength.


----------



## PCTools

Where are you guys purchasing your dual boom stacking kits? (Horizontal) I see them on the A-Tech Website, yet they never answer their phone. Any other places?

http://www.atechfabrication.com/prod...tenna_boom.htm


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Blackduck* /forum/post/13597229
> 
> 
> I don't know how to post my TVfool results without having to type them in.



Save the results (a PNG image) to your hard disk. When you post a message, you can upload the image as an attachment, via the "Manage attachments" button at the bottom of the message-composition page.


----------



## Blackduck

Here are my exacct TVfool results, both current and post. Thank you jtbell Walter Added more results at post#7038


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jcs444* /forum/post/13599451
> 
> 
> I recently bought a 13 inch analog/digital tv and put a radioshack vhf back-of-set snap-in dipole and uhf clip-on bowtie (both of which have 300 ohm connectors) and joined them with a double 300 ohm to single 75 ohm combiner that pushes onto the 75 ohm connector on the back of the tv. I've read posts in this forum that discourage the use of push on coax cables. Will this push-on combiner have the same type of signal loss as a push on coax? Is a similar combiner that screws on available somewhere? I'm getting good digital reception right now but am wondering if this combiner might cause a problem eventually.



Did the combiner have separate UHF and VHF connections, like those shown? If so, you're fine. It may not be the highest quality, but there's no reason to pay more if it works. Worst case, replace it when it fails!
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm 


Frank


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Blackduck* /forum/post/13608937
> 
> 
> Here are my exact TVfool results, both current and post. Thank you jtbell



You've made enough posts that you can add attachments! I wrote a reply to that effect but deleted it lest I monopolize the conversation. Same thing here, but since no one's chimed in recently ...


holl_ands has a valid point regarding overload. The pre-amp is dealing with all stations and frequencies at once, so if it distorts, all channels are affected but the weakest disappear below noise. This can be minimized by use of a high overload pre-amp and a directional antenna with very low gain in the strong station's direction when pointed at weak stations you want. Look at teh spreadsheet holl_ands linked. There's a lot of data, but lots of commentary and color coding. I'm no EE but I got the drift; I bet you can, too.


The only good thing is your pre-transition field has several powerful analog and digital stations, but your post-transition field has only one. If you get it to work now, it'll work even better post transition.


If you have more questions, keep asking!


Frank


----------



## wisnia99

Hi All I just got into the antenna and HD realm

Im mostly interested in HD I purchased a treck indor antenna but it doesnt do the trick. I live in a 4 Unit townhouse in wheaton 25 Miles from the Brodcast towers Chicago area. I cant install an outside antenna, but i have a nice attic.


I was thinking about CM 4228

and 7777 preamp


Does this preamp has to be close to the antenna and powered or close to the reciver?


what are your sugestions will this work?


----------



## wisnia99

I was reading little bit more and maybe i dont need that big of antenna

what you think about Direct DB2 ?


----------



## A J

I get different results on tvfool.com depending on whether I enter my street address, or my coordinates (to 4 decimal places). I've double checked the entries. Has anyone else run into this?


The RX(dBm), Path, and LOS figures are markedly different. The distance figures differ from 0.2 mile to 0.5 mile and direction is a degree different on a few stations..


My guess is that their database doesn't pinpoint my street address very accurately. And, maybe the altitude of my site is known when using coordinates, resulting in better numbers for LOS.


A J


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A J* /forum/post/13616018
> 
> 
> I get different results on tvfool.com depending on whether I enter my street address, or my coordinates (to 4 decimal places). I've double checked the entries. Has anyone else run into this?
> 
> 
> The RX(dBm), Path, and LOS figures are markedly different. The distance figures differ from 0.2 mile to 0.5 mile and direction is a degree different on a few stations..
> 
> 
> My guess is that their database doesn't pinpoint my street address very accurately. And, maybe the altitude of my site is known when using coordinates, resulting in better numbers for LOS.
> 
> 
> A J



The address look-up is much less accurate than LAT/LONG coordinate.


You can readily see this if you search for your address using GoogleEarth, which

uses some sort of (unknown) address look-up database and then plots it onto

SRTM (-1 or -3?) topographic data, which in turn has a photo overlay with

yet another degree of "fitting" inaccuracy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Earth 


TVFool Radar Plots use SRTM-1 topographic data, accurate (in x & y) to within 10-meters:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...m#post10303057 

So if you have a hill in your backyard (like me) you may need to tweak the

LAT/LONG a little to find the bottom.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wisnia99* /forum/post/13615084
> 
> 
> Hi All I just got into the antenna and HD realm
> 
> Im mostly interested in HD I purchased a treck indor antenna but it doesnt do the trick. I live in a 4 Unit townhouse in wheaton 25 Miles from the Brodcast towers Chicago area. I cant install an outside antenna, but i have a nice attic.
> 
> 
> I was thinking about CM 4228
> 
> and 7777 preamp
> 
> 
> Does this preamp has to be close to the antenna and powered or close to the reciver?
> 
> 
> what are your sugestions will this work?



There are no nearby stations to worry about overloading the CM7777, so it

should work up to its potential.


The Preamp mounts as close to the antenna as is feasible. Usually right

next to the antenna connections, but a few feet away is also okay.


The Power Injection Module can be mounted anywhere it is convenient,

such as near a power outlet in the attic or next to your TV:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=ANC7777 


However, although CM4228 "UHF antenna" has moderate gain for VHF CH7-13,

it won't do much for CH2-6. You probably need a big VHF antenna as well.


Since that might not fit in your attic, you might try a DIY folded dipole:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...e#post13011618


----------



## Blackduck

Although I am interested only in digital stations, I just realized that the existing analog stations could be giving me problems, so I am posting all stations now. Walter


----------



## holl_ands

Good News: Not much of a threat wrt overload desensitization.


Bad News: High loss 2Edge paths for ALL digital stations and you need

well over 50 dB dynamic range to receive ABC & CW.


----------



## wisnia99

Thanks holl_ands


i have another question


so how many cables do i run to the attick only 1? or 2 cause i know that ill have the power module installed in the room for the 7777 preamp


----------



## Blackduck

Thanks holl-ands, but what does that mean in lay-person terms? Walter


----------



## ctdish

I think it means that with any reasonable antenna things are not going to get too much better. My experience with similar strength signals is a large antenna will work 85% of the time and probably nothing short of a tower a few hundred high will work 100% of the time. my experience is that signal levels are stable in the winter except when some weather fronts are comming in and get both much stronger and much weaker on different summer nights. John


----------



## Blackduck

So my totally unscientific theory that there is only x amount of signal available to be captured at a given time is true. Once this amount of signal is in hand, bigger antennas with more gain really won't help, this explains why the Uhf section of my old Radio Shack antenna does just as well as the 4228 CM and the Winegard 9095, correct? Walter


----------



## ctdish

Actually the difference in gain between most of the bigger UHF antennas is only 3-4 dB. and the variation with weather is 10 to 20 dB with near fringe edge reception. Your best hope for improvement is to go higher. If you can get above at least one of the edges you will probably see a big improvement.

John


----------



## mlmahon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13617590
> 
> 
> The address look-up is much less accurate than LAT/LONG coordinate.
> 
> 
> You can readily see this if you search for your address using GoogleEarth, which
> 
> uses some sort of (unknown) address look-up database and then plots it onto
> 
> SRTM (-1 or -3?) topographic data, which in turn has a photo overlay with
> 
> yet another degree of "fitting" inaccuracy:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Earth
> 
> 
> TVFool Radar Plots use SRTM-1 topographic data, accurate (in x & y) to within 10-meters:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...m#post10303057
> 
> So if you have a hill in your backyard (like me) you may need to tweak the
> 
> LAT/LONG a little to find the bottom.



Funny, my experience is the exact opposite. My address comes back perfect but if I enter my Google Earth coordinates, it gives me data for a location about 25 miles east of me.


----------



## Speedball

I live in a single story home with a new 46" Mitsubishi TV after years of watching a 27" Sony. We were hooked up to basic cable tv and the reception wasn't very good so my neighbor made me a 4 bay antenna out of some aluminum foil covered cardboard, aluminum clothsline wire bent into bowties and a wood 2"x 4" for a post. This home made antenna brought in better reception than my cable connection or the Phillips $80.00 antenna I returned to the home store.


Knowing what the home made bowtie antenna did for us and reading the posts in this thread I bought the CM 4228 8- bay and it does a beautiful job at bringing in a great picture for area code 46217.


Free tv is great isn't it?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wisnia99* /forum/post/13618242
> 
> 
> Thanks holl_ands
> 
> 
> i have another question
> 
> 
> so how many cables do i run to the attick only 1? or 2 cause i know that ill have the power module installed in the room for the 7777 preamp



I don't know how to make it any clearer than the picture solidsignal provided above.

If you use separate UHF and VHF antennas, the CM4228 connects to

the UHF port on the CM7777 and VHF antenna to VHF port.

The Power Module plugs into 120 VAC wall socket and sends DC power up

the coax to the Preamp.


----------



## Blackduck

I know that one should keep a minimum of 3 feet between the booms of a uhf and a vhf antenna, but what about a screen type antenna, CM 4228 and a YA1713? Could they be closer without a negative impact on one or the other, if so how close? Also, when combining the two with a CM 7777, would some or all of the 4228's VHF signal be added to the 1713's or would it be lost?



Thank you John for your help, our locations being so close helps me understand my situation much better. Do you think investing in one of those super low gain English pre-amps is worth a try? Walter


----------



## Tarwater

About a week ago I bought a CECB (Digital Stream DTX9900). I reported my initial results from trying to receive digital broadcasts here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post13562869 


(See attached TVFool data. Syracuse stations are at 289-301 degrees; Binghamton at 208.)


After I posted that, I made some tweaks, and for a few days I was able receive good signals from six Syracuse stations (WSTM, WTVH, WSYR, WCNY, WNYS, and WSYT). My weakest signal meter reading was typically in the 60s, and my strongest was around 90. I sometimes even got a few Binghamton stations, even though I'm pointed almost 90 degrees away from all of the Binghamton transmitters.


The aforementioned tweaks:

I shortened the antenna cable.

I tossed my bottom-of-the-line Radio Shack pre-amp and installed a Channel Master 7777.

I rotated the antenna slightly (it's a roof-mounted 50-element directional VHF/UHF combo -- unknown model, but it looks like your typical Radio Shack antenna).


By far the biggest improvement was from turning the antenna. The digital transmitters are in the same locations as the analog, and the tripod mount was rock solid, so I think whoever originally installed the antenna just did a sloppy job with his pointing. Either that or for some reason it needs to be pointed differently for digital/UHF than it did for analog/VHF. It's interesting that the one analog station that was always crystal clear was WSYR, and that was my weakest digital signal (usually unwatchable) before I rotated. Go figure.


I was surprised at how much the signal meter jumped around, especially with the weaker signals. But as of last night, I was receiving stable video and audio on all six Syracuse stations, and three Binghamton stations.


This morning, the situation was completely different. Five of the six Syracuse stations had significantly weaker signals, two to the point that I got a black screen. The other Syracuse station was about the same, and oddly enough, so were the Binghamton stations.


I went back up on the roof and confirmed that the antenna was still pointed where it had been, and the mount and all the connections were tight. Everything was fine, exactly the way I left it.


We did have rain and lightning here overnight. Now I know, the obvious conclusion is something got zapped, but I don't think so, for the following reasons:


1) The amount of signal loss varies widely. Signal meter readings have dropped anywhere from only about 10 points to about 60 points.

2) I've had an antenna in the same spot for 15 years and never been hit before.

3) There are trees around the house much taller than the antenna (~60ft vs. 30ft), and a barn 50 ft away with a weather station mast on the roof, also higher than the antenna.


Can anyone suggest some possible reasons why my signal strengths would vary so dramatically over time? I don't have much experience with digital or UHF reception; is this typical?


====================================

UPDATE:


OK, now all signal meters are back up again. Right where they were last night. I swear, I didn't touch a thing, and I'm (pretty sure I'm) not losing my mind.


Any ideas how I can try to stabilize things?


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13617952
> 
> 
> Good News: Not much of a threat wrt overload desensitization.
> 
> 
> Bad News: High loss 2Edge paths for ALL digital stations and you need
> 
> well over 50 dB dynamic range to receive ABC & CW.



holl_ands, to what extent would antenna directional gain affect Blackduck's situation? That is, would an antenna that's -20dB at 30 deg off axis make it a 30 dB dynamic range problem?


----------



## ctdish

Blackduck,

Those two antennas will interact very little and one or two feet should be OK. If you had to put them nearly touching they would probably still work pretty well.

I use one of the Research Communications preamps and it got me about a 3 dB improvement. When I moved the antenna from about 20 ft above ground to 45 ft I saw a 15 dB improvement.

John


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Blackduck* /forum/post/13622716
> 
> 
> I know that one should keep a minimum of 3 feet between the booms of a uhf and a vhf antenna, but what about a screen type antenna, CM 4228 and a YA1713? Could they be closer without a negative impact on one or the other, if so how close? Also, when combining the two with a CM 7777, would some or all of the 4228's VHF signal be added to the 1713's or would it be lost? ...



There are two ways to look at this.


Antennas react to metal. Even though they're different bands, separate UHF and VHF antennas still see an area neaby that's full of conductors and so reflecting signals. They're both directional antennas, so they're not very sensitive toward the other antenna, but a wavelength or so eliminates the interaction.


Antennas have effective apertures, an area in front of the antenna where any EM radiation of the correct wavelength makes a contribution to the signal in the down lead. The higher the gain, the larger the aperture. You'd like the antenna spacing to be such that the apertures don't overlap.


The recommendation is simple, but the reasoning behind it isn't.


And yes, the CM4228's VHF signal will be lost, but there's not that much there to begin with compared with the YA1713.


Frank


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tarwater* /forum/post/13623548
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> This morning, the situation was completely different. Five of the six Syracuse stations had significantly weaker signals, two to the point that I got a black screen. The other Syracuse station was about the same, and oddly enough, so were the Binghamton stations.
> 
> ...
> 
> We did have rain and lightning here overnight. Now I know, the obvious conclusion is something got zapped, but I don't think so, for the following reasons:
> 
> ...
> 
> 3) There are trees around the house much taller than the antenna (~60ft vs. 30ft), and a barn 50 ft away with a weather station mast on the roof, also higher than the antenna.
> 
> 
> Can anyone suggest some possible reasons why my signal strengths would vary so dramatically over time?
> 
> ...
> 
> Any ideas how I can try to stabilize things?



Tarwater, let me check my understanding. You had picture last night, it rained over night and reception was bad in the morning but improved as the day went on?


It may be the wet trees. Water is bad for reception, and that makes trees a problem. Wet trees are an even bigger problem, but they dry out. Deciduois trees are famous for causing variations; new TV works fine at Christmas but reception dies once the weather gets nice, then comes back in the Fall.


Stablizing unfortuntely may mean height; get above the bulk of the tree mass and not only will signal improve, stability will, too.


Frank


----------



## Blackduck




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13623551
> 
> 
> holl_ands, to what extent would antenna directional gain affect Blackduck's situation? That is, would an antenna that's -20dB at 30 deg off axis make it a 30 dB dynamic range problem?



Frank, Can you explain a little bit about what you are asking here? Also maybe you or holl-ands can explain the 50db dynamic range on ABC and CW.

I am currently getting those stations with a RS VU-190, which has a published gain of only 8 dB uhf average. This is why I thought upgrading to a CM 4228 would make some improvement. By the way, I am also able to receive the Fox digital 64.1, (54) a lot of the time. In doing some research on others results in the area, looks like I am doing very well right now. I am just trying to do the best that I can. I really appreciate all of everybody"s help. I have some common sense and a little bit of antenna understanding, but not enough of either, I guess. Walter


----------



## Tarwater




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13623758
> 
> 
> Tarwater, let me check my understanding. You had picture last night, it rained over night and reception was bad in the morning but improved as the day went on?



Correct. By early afternoon, all channels were back to last night's levels.



> Quote:
> It may be the wet trees. Water is bad for reception, and that makes trees a problem. Wet trees are an even bigger problem, but they dry out. Deciduois trees are famous for causing variations; new TV works fine at Christmas but reception dies once the weather gets nice, then comes back in the Fall.



Yeah, I've experienced that with a satellite dish; weaker signal in the summer when the leaves are on the trees.


But the only trees blocking this antenna are a row of spruce trees around the yard; no seasonal variation there. Other than that, I'm surrounded by hundreds of acres of wide open hay fields and pastures. Could dry vs. wet spruce trees (just a single row of trees) have that much effect? Dropping a signal meter from, say, 80s to 20s?



> Quote:
> Stablizing unfortuntely may mean height; get above the bulk of the tree mass and not only will signal improve, stability will, too.



Hmmmm. That's not what I wanted to hear. These are some tall spruces. Don't know how I'd get over them.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Blackduck* /forum/post/13623881
> 
> 
> Frank, Can you explain a little bit about what you are asking here? Also maybe you or holl-ands can explain the 50db dynamic range on ABC and CW.
> 
> 
> I am currently getting those stations with a RS VU-190, which has a published gain of only 8 dB uhf average. This is why I thought upgrading to a CM 4228 would make some improvement. By the way, I am also able to receive the Fox digital 64.1, (54) a lot of the time. In doing some research on others results in the area, looks like I am doing very well right now. I am just trying to do the best that I can. I really appreciate all of everybody"s help. I have some common sense and a little bit of antenna understanding, but not enough of either, I guess. Walter



holl_ands comment was based on your TVFool plots (which I've now closed so this is from memory) that show ~50dB difference between the strong stations at 1-2 degrees and the bunch at 30-35 degrees. ABC and CW are just the weakest at that heading.


A CM4228 has highly directional gain pattern, and is -20dB at 30 degrees off-axis in azimuth (L-R). My question to holl_ands was if that gain difference reduces the dynamic range required.


As is evident in some other threads I'm following, optimium antenna designs are worth 3-6dB in signal, while siting (height) may drive signal 10-15dB and weather (Tarwater's wet trees) another 5-10dB. The advantage of the CM4228 may be it's directional properties rather than raw gain, if dynamic range limitations are the issue.


Or it's directional gain may be it's downfall if it can't get the range of stations the VU190 gets due to it's lower-and-less-directional gain.


Marginal reception is a complex problem with some clear improvements (height always helps), some improvements with tradeoffs - a directional antenna may need a rotor, and some elephants you can't control like the weather.


In ALL cases, the only way to know for sure is to try, and that's what you're doing. Your experiments make you the expert for your house, and hopefully with a little guideance from here, you'll get where you want to be.


Frank


----------



## fbov

Tarwater,

Conifers hold water like crazy in the rain and snow, but a little wind will dry them out. If you're aimed through them (and it sounds that way from your height comment), it might not be a matter of getting over them but rather aiming though a less-dense portion of the tree, AND gaining all the advantages height brings in weak signal fields, regardless of obstructions.

Frank


----------



## Tarwater




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13624043
> 
> 
> Tarwater,
> 
> Conifers hold water like crazy in the rain and snow, but a little wind will dry them out. If you're aimed through them (and it sounds that way from your height comment), it might not be a matter of getting over them but rather aiming though a less-dense portion of the tree, AND gaining all the advantages height brings in weak signal fields, regardless of obstructions.
> 
> Frank



OK, thanks. Less dense might be tough, because they're right on top of each other. But the mast is only a 5-ft, so I can definitely try going higher. I've resisted a taller mast so far, because the wind really whips across those hay fields. (I had two large, healthy spruces snap off at the base a while back.) I'll need a bigger tripod and some guy wires.


I also need to waterproof the connectors better. I wrapped the connections and the balun well with electrical tape. I was planning to slap some silicone on, once I was convinced everything was stable. Guess I better not wait.


I'm also not sure the balun is meant for outdoor use, so I was going to order a CM3075. Maybe I'll get some Coax-Seal while I'm at it. Not sure if it's better than silicone sealant from the hardware store, but it's cheap enough to try it.


----------



## jtbell

Another possible cause might be that you got hit with a large fluctuation in atmospheric conditions. From your TVfool data, it looks like you have large obstructions (hills) between you and the Syracuse stations. You're getting your signal two ways: via wave diffraction around the tops of the hills, and via atmospheric scattering from water vapor, dust particles, etc. If the atmospheric contribution is important, and it drops sharply because of weather conditions, it can reduce your total signal significantly.


So, what you saw might not be a regular thing, in that it won't happen every time it rains, but you'll get it every once in a while. It happens to me once or twice a month with stations near Charlotte NC (about 70 miles away)


In a more extreme situation, atmospheric conditions can actually refract signals away from your location and cause your signal to drop even if you have line-of-sight to the transmitter. My main stations around Greenville SC are about 50-60 miles away, but they're on top of mountains and I'm down in the piedmont, so I have line-of-sight to them and usually have excellent reception. Nevertheless, maybe once a year they disappear completely for a few hours, and their analog signals become very weak and "snowy."


----------



## PA_MainyYak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tarwater* /forum/post/13623934
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmm. That's not what I wanted to hear. These are some tall spruces. Don't know how I'd get over them.



There's always the chainsaw.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/13574260
> 
> 
> I don't think that the attenuator idea will work to tame digital multipath. If there is multipath the dynamic equalizer needs a higher signal to noise ratio to decode the signal.
> 
> 
> In an analog system the attenuator could bury a ghost in the noise. It wouldn't really eliminate the ghost, but you wouldn't see it either.



Many had good results using attenuators with the initial D* HD Tivo for digital. It has pretty bad multipath performance and is a pretty poor performing digital tuner overall by reputation.


Certainly a more directional antenna, higher f/b ratio, and a better tuner would be the first steps though.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13606580
> 
> 
> Where are you guys purchasing your dual boom stacking kits? (Horizontal) I see them on the A-Tech Website, yet they never answer their phone. Any other places?
> 
> http://www.atechfabrication.com/prod...tenna_boom.htm



I made mine mostly. The blonder tongue BTY-B stacking clamp was a welcome addition though and really improved the entire installation considerably. Connecting the stack to the vertical rotator stem seems to be the trickiest part and needs to be sturdy. Fiberglass rods/tubes can be had at http://www.mgs4u.com/fiberglass-tube-rod.htm 


I use 1 1/4 tubes with 1 inch tubes telescoped inside for increased stiffness. The center support is regular 1 1/4 CM masting and is coupled to the fiberglass with modified CM attic mounts (seen best end-on in the second pic). The couple b/w the center support and the fiberglass doesn't see as much stress as that of the couple to the vertical rotator stem and has held up well for me. CM attic mounts: http://www.crutchfield.com/S-NNUK1eo...aspx?I=6593078


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13577245
> 
> 
> I am surprised you did not cover the entire reflector with chicken wire.



It was a compromise to decrease overall windload.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13571507
> 
> 
> cpcat's chicken wire is called hardware cloth in my stores, and it's much finer mesh than you need for Ch 14-52. In the pictured application, it could enhance high frequency gain on an antenna optimized for 800 MHz (Ch 70). That said, it is stiffer than most wire meshs and is well suited to applications with minimal physical support.
> 
> 
> Frank



My theory on why the performance is improved is that it improves front/back ratio by blocking signals from the rear. I don't think it helps whatsoever with forward gain. This would seem to jive with what the real world results are as I seem to have much less interference with competing co-channels looking at analog.


----------



## Tarwater




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PA_MainyYak* /forum/post/13625175
> 
> 
> There's always the chainsaw.



Don't think I'm not tempted! But I need my windbreak. My heating bills are high enough already.


----------



## rviele




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/13625362
> 
> 
> My theory on why the performance is improved is that it improves front/back ratio by blocking signals from the rear. I don't think it helps whatsoever with forward gain. This would seem to jive with what the real world results are as I seem to have much less interference with competing co-channels looking at analog.



not to get off the subject but chicken wire is a 1x2 mesh and hdw cloth comes 8x8 4x4 and 2x2 does opening size matter?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rviele* /forum/post/13625659
> 
> 
> not to get off the subject but chicken wire is a 1x2 mesh and hdw cloth comes 8x8 4x4 and 2x2 does opening size matter?



Assuming that the improvement in performance is simply due to blocking signals from the back, then the smaller the mesh and larger the guage wire the better. However, the smaller the mesh, the more the reflector acts like a sail and thus increasing overall windload on the mast.


I used a galvanized wire mesh with 1/2 inch squares and I'd say the wire itself is around 20 or 22 guage. The screen on the back of the CM 4228 looks to be around 1 x 1/2 so we should be in the ballpark here. See pic below:

http://www.summitsource.com/images/products/AN4228.jpg


----------



## icrnk

Well I tried the it and it was actually pretty good. I had to play around with it as I had problems getting channel 11 (CBS), 13 (SBC), and 20 (MyNetwork/UPN) to play with each other. I'd make an adjustment and to get one and I'd lose one of the other channels. I was finally able to get all of them after a few adjustments. Channel 8 (PBS) was not crystal clear but was more watchable than what I get with the Silver Sensor. I think Channel 8is a VHF station. I also checked the signal strength on the channels and the strength bar was a little longer with this antenna. Oh yeah, it's a GE Antenna. I used it for about 30 to 40 minutes and packed it up to give to my grandfather. It looks like it's a little better than the Silver Sensor but it takes some time playing around with the gain, rabbit ears, and disc to get it working; at least for me it did. I may pick up another later on if I buy another television. I really should have tested it more but I had to drop it off as my grandfather had a broken antenna so he needed a replacement.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *icrnk* /forum/post/13578340
> 
> http://www.hammacher.com/publish/746...sted_best_hero
> 
> 
> Well, I'm going to try it out anyway. I currently use a Silver Sensor in area code 77429. Overall I'm pretty satisfied with it but sometimes it has a bad day where I have to adjust it multiple times throughout the day. I think it happens more when it's cloudy or raining. Also, channel 8 (PBS) is horrible. I'll compare this to the Silver Sensor and worse case scenario if it's no better I'll just give it to my grandfather as he needs a new antenna anyway; he's in area code 77008. I hope it's at least equal to the Silver Sensor. Anyone in the 77429 area have any antenna's they had great success in using?


----------



## Lukes




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13550947
> 
> 
> Lukes,
> 
> If you're still reading, click one of the TVFool.com links and post the .PNG (both today and post-transition) as an attachment tomorrow, after your obligatory 5 (?) posts. Antennaweb is missing a key response - signal level - and is notorious for missing fine details like the low spots you and I live in (but it misses trees and houses). Street address is good, long/lat is better, both truncated in the plot for your privacy.
> 
> 
> You've picked a top-line set-up; I bet you realized that TV reception's the same, NTSC or ATSC so everything you know still applies. The only issue I see is tuner overload if you have a close/strong station, and the closest station I see is still 19 miles.
> 
> 
> When you get it up, let us know how you fare. The 3671 is one of the few combo units that has a high-gain UHF section, and the H260 is well respected. If you think the puppets looked good, wait until you get a real HD image and display!
> 
> 
> Frank



I'm up now. Took Friday off from to setup the chimney mount, mount the masts, mount the rotor, and run the earth grounds.


Good thing I watched the weather. Saturday morning was windy with dew on the roof. Around 10:30 am the roof was dry, but, the wind had picked up and a front was coming. Thunder & lightning and rain by 2:30 pm. Decided to hold off yesterday.


Anyway, pointed antenna initially at 180º to sync the rotor. Then set the antenna to 205º as a go between using the analog signals as a visual verification. Did a digital sweep and got 24 digital channels with 6 of those dropping out some and a couple with pixelation.


No inline attenuator was needed. Because of my local location in a hole an trees all around, seems as though the towers 19 mi. away are attenuated enough with the antenna pointed @ 205º.


Though only presently using a 1996 26" Phillips tube TV at 480i in the great room at this time, the digital OTA signal is crisper than anything I got from D*TV. Only the DVD player gives sharper pictures constantly. The HD OTA programs are just as sharp as the DVD player!!


I figure the 42" HDTV LCD or larger will be on the wall in 18 months or so.


Setup: CM 3671, CM 7777, to in-line gas arrestor, then air gap arrestor on the front end of the 2-way splitter, then MOV surge suppressor on the bus strip. Tuner is a Samsung DTB 260H.


The analog UHF channels (except 17, 22, and 50) still have some ghosting because of the multipath.


Now, digital OTA will be in the mbdrm as soon as those coupons come in in mid-May.


Gonna have to make a decision as to which 2 $20 boxes to get.


----------



## fbov

Congrats on a successful installation!


----------



## PCTools

I purchased the wire that has 1/4" squares at my local Menard's. (20AWG). I could not see ANY improvement in my reception, except it is like a sail in the air. And by the way, you need a lot of this stuff for the 7' parabolic. (Holy Cow)










P.S. The antenna was down for 2 hours, so perhaps the conditions changed.


Any feedback on my tvfool post would be helpful... (See below)

Quote:

Originally Posted by *cpcat* 
Assuming that the improvement in performance is simply due to blocking signals from the back, then the smaller the mesh and larger the guage wire the better. However, the smaller the mesh, the more the reflector acts like a sail and thus increasing overall windload on the mast.


I used a galvanized wire mesh with 1/2 inch squares and I'd say the wire itself is around 20 or 22 guage. The screen on the back of the CM 4228 looks to be around 1 x 1/2 so we should be in the ballpark here. See pic below:

http://www.summitsource.com/images/products/AN4228.jpg

 

Chad.zip 413.005859375k . file


----------



## Lukes




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13636316
> 
> 
> Congrats on a successful installation!



Thanks,


Frank.


I went with the more expensive Samy converter at this time because of possible problems with the multipathing of several UHF stations in analog, however, with a large directional combo antenna, that too seriously helped negate multipath effects for signal lock.


The tuner is a little slow to change (lock) at times, but, once it grabs, it's there and stays!










I'll be fine tuning and making notes the next few days out for direction station, etc.










I am sure grateful for this forum and all those TV engineers, hobbyists, and EE"s that explain the why's and why not's as well as the do's and don't.


Thanks to all those that know their stuff!!


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13636368
> 
> 
> I purchased the wire that has 1/4" squares at my local Menard's. (20AWG). I could not see ANY improvement in my reception, except it is like a sail in the air. And by the way, you need a lot of this stuff for the 7' parabolic. (Holy Cow)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. The antenna was down for 2 hours, so perhaps the conditions changed.
> 
> 
> Any feedback on my tvfool post would be helpful... (See below)



I wouldn't expect the improvement to be night and day but fairly subtle and would be most noticeable with analog reception looking at distant signals that were problematic from co-channel interference. You might also notice improved multipath performance (less ghosting on analog). Improvement in digital performance would then be inferred from what you are seeing on the analogs and might take some time and experimentation to become more certain.


Adding the mesh to a 7' parabolic would increase the wind load by a ton. I'd probably compromise by screening just the area immediately behind the driven element i.e. the center part of the reflector at maybe only a 12 inch of radius on a hemisphere.


As far as any further recommendations go, for better performance on uhf you'd need to stack 2 or 4 yagi corner reflectors horizontally. Whether this would get you your desired stations would still be uncertain, but you could dependably improve your performance.


Using the latest HDTV tuners also helps. The 5th gen LG and the 5th Gen from Samsung are excellent with the 5th Gen LG being slightly better for long distance reception in my experience.


Using a GaSFet low-noise preamp would be another option.

I'm not sure if I caught what model preamp you are using currently.


Finally, going higher in the air can help but may or may not be feasible depending on your installation.


----------



## seekermeister

My situation got delayed because of some snags with orders, but when trying to decide about what connectors to use to put everything together, I found a couple of things that I wanted to ask about.


There is a choice of whether to use screw on, compression or crimp connectors...does it make a difference in terms of the quality of signal conveyed? There are gold plated connectors available for a few dollars more...should I get these?


There are sealants and tape available for weatherproofing connections, which is better? Are these necessary when using a gold connector?


----------



## Blackduck

If I understand correctly, an AGC reading of over 100 is terrible and one would not be able to lock on to a signal. All of my readings are over 100, and I am able to receive a number of channels. All channels, two with signal strength readings of close to 100, SNR 32, have this big AGC number. Weaker channels, 85 signal strength, 23 SNR, have the same big AGC numbers, 110 or so. I just wonder if there is some clue to improving my reception stability, reliability, in these numbers? These readings are from the Sony's diagnostic screen

Walter


----------



## ctdish

Where did you get the info that an AGC reading over 100 is bad? Signal strength and AGC are numbers from an arbitrary scale made up by the manufacture so if you make a change you can see if you went in the correct direction, but the numbers can not be compared to anyone else's. AGC is a measurable quantity and a stable value of a little below 20 should produce artifact free pictures. Equipment to accurately measure it costs more than your tv but your TV may have circuitry to estimate it based on some parameter such as average bit error rate. If there is a short drop in signal strength it may not show up on the average but will cause picture artifacts.

John


----------



## Blackduck

John, are you saying that my AGC numbers are on a arbitrary scale set by the manufacturer and can't be used except as a base to make comparisons to my own changes? By the way, I went back to a CM 4228 this weekend. I have it up a little higher, and found an old balun that seem to give me a little more gain. The CM spartan 3 does a better job on physical 13 than the 7777, about the same on all the other UHF channels. I don't know if it is the good weather or what, but I think I might have gained 5% or so. Will have to see. Walter


Yes, after reading your post again, that is what you are saying. Are the SNR numbers real, and or comparable to others?


----------



## fbov

Blackduck,

John's right that the diagnostic displays show arbitrary values as a guide to optimizing your reception, but meaningless for comparisons across products. You and I may be seeing similar displays. I have a Sony 34XBR970 HD-CRT and it shows a nice signal strength display (bar graph with numeric values) at the top then channel/frequency data, then locks, errors and finally S/N ratio and AGC.


When I tested a range of home-built antennas, I recorded S/N and AGC values with signal readings to see if they fit any sort of pattern. The only one that correlated with reception quality was the signal reading. The other two may be useful in fine tuning, but I haven't tried it. They seemed kind of noisy, but then I was working indoors in a highly diffracted signal field. You may find them very useful with a tall roof mount and a high gain antenna.


Frank


----------



## mclapp

I see alot of you guys discussing the size of the reflector screens and from the antenna modeling and building I've done 2" x 2" wire spacing is as small as is needed for UHF channel 60 or lower. Of course smaller doesn't hurt but the wind loading goes up quite a bit for no real gain in reception. I've had real good success with 2" x 4" fencing as a reflector screen just be sure to use it so that the 2" spacing is vertical and 4" is horizontal and make sure that it is the type that has all the wires are welded together. (NO chainlink fence type)

I've also found that using a 36" x 36" screen behind a 4 bay antenna like a CM 4221 or w4400 greatly improves VHF high reception and slightly improves UHF reception.

I've built both a cm4221 and w4400 style 4 bay antennas. They were scaled to a lower frequency centered around channel 30 using the 36" x 36" reflector and both receive signals as well as and sometimes better than a cm4228 especially on VHF high.


----------



## Konrad2

> There are gold plated connectors available


Gold is highly conductive, and doesn't corrode.


> There are sealants and tape available for weatherproofing connections,

> which is better? Are these necessary when using a gold connector?


Yes, you still need to waterproof things. I haven't looked into

details, since I have my antennas in the attic.


I believe some connectors have o-rings, which seems like a good idea.


The RG6QS cables sold at Lowes claim to be weatherproof, and claim to

have gold plated connectors.


----------



## Konrad2

> I've built both a cm4221 and w4400 style 4 bay antennas. They were

> scaled to a lower frequency centered around channel 30 using the

> 36" x 36" reflector and both receive signals as well as and sometimes

> better than a cm4228 especially on VHF high.


The obvious next step is to add a 6 foot square reflector to a 4228

and test the VHF-LO.


----------



## mclapp

I'm in process of building a 8 bay bowtie (cm4228) version with a 54" reflector and the 2 4 bays spaced 26" apart. The modeling program doesn't show any usable gain any VHF low frequencies. :-( The elements are just too short for VHF low, but VHF high and UHF look good I hope to finish and test in the next week.


----------



## PCTools

MAXHD / Holl_ands


Is it worth $100 more to have a Rohn 20 over the American tower? That is, for a 50 tower.


This is the cost to make the change.


Your comments..



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13548207
> 
> 
> Well, I played around with 20' of pipe in the air and just made the plunge of ordering a NEW American 50' tower.
> 
> 
> Holy cow, did these go up in price.
> 
> 
> My dealer quoted me:
> 
> 
> $550 - 5 Sections of tower (1 pc S-7 & 4 pcs S-5) ($650 if I want Rohn 20)
> 
> $120 - Concrete
> 
> $160 - Labor
> 
> $ 20 - House bracket
> 
> ======
> 
> $850 ($950) Rohn 20
> 
> My old system is in the attachment.
> 
> 
> Any feedback?


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *n4yqt* /forum/post/13653206
> 
> 
> Please post some pictures of these home-brew antennas, if possible.



They're on the antenna-making thread.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798265


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mclapp* /forum/post/13652083
> 
> 
> I'm in process of building a 8 bay bowtie (cm4228) version with a 54" reflector and the 2 4 bays spaced 26" apart. The modeling program doesn't show any usable gain any VHF low frequencies. :-( The elements are just too short for VHF low, but VHF high and UHF look good I hope to finish and test in the next week.



One rule of thumb in antenna making is that antennas will have gain peaks at their design wavelength and at 3x design wavelength. Look at the VHF band:

- VHF-low is 57-85 MHz

- 3x VHF-low is 171-255 MHz

- VHF-high is 177-213 MHz


This was not some happy accident. VHF was designed to take advantage of antenna reception characteristics, and big, multi-bay arrays attempt to do the same thing for UHF and VHF-high.

- 3x VHF-high is 531-639 MHz

- UHF now is 473-~800 MHz, will be 473-695 MHz.


I'll be interested in the results, as will the antenna-making thread.


Frank


----------



## Blackduck

Okay, me again. Now I am trying to figure out signal strength fluctuation. Sometimes the signals are very steady, others, like last night, the are up and down, from really strong to weak, causing dropouts. I am currently using a CM 4228, but have had the problem with other antennas. I understand multipath could be the cause, however, I don't recall any ghosting problems when I was using analog. As always thanks for everyone's time and help.


Walter


----------



## Blackduck

Rick, I have a Winegard 9095 in my collection, is it that much different than an 91 xg? I haven't tried it in this new location because I wasn't impressed with it's performance this winter, but maybe I didn't give it a chance. At the time, I wasn't aware of how much reception can change day to day. I only left it up for an hour or so. Does everybody feel that multipath is the only possible cause of my signal quality, fluctuation? One other thing, channel 13, my only vhf, was quite stable.


Walter


----------



## PCTools

Walter,


I tested the Wingard 9032, (which I feel is a step upward from the 9095), againist the XG91, and was surprised.


The XG was able to capture signals that the 9032 could not even see. So, I have a brand new 9032 in the garage, with the 91XG in the air.


Better results will be accomplished with the 91XG. ($58.47 online)









Google = Your Best Friend



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Blackduck* /forum/post/13655056
> 
> 
> Rick, I have a Winegard 9095 in my collection, is it that much different than an 91 xg? I haven't tried it in this new location because I wasn't impressed with it's performance this winter, but maybe I didn't give it a chance. At the time, I wasn't aware of how much reception can change day to day. I only left it up for an hour or so.
> 
> 
> Walter


----------



## degarb

Is there a filter to filter out the light switch noise, the blender rf, etc? I am thinking at converter box, since the line out from filter might pickup RF. I was also wondering if shielding all connectors with foil duct tape might help.


Also, I have had no luck with the kmart/walmart amps with dtv. Only the 60$ amp for mast antenna.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seekermeister* /forum/post/13646074
> 
> 
> There are sealants and tape available for weatherproofing connections, which is better? Are these necessary when using a gold connector?



I've always used coax-seal. Yes, you should waterproof even with gold-plated "outdoor" type connectors.


http://www.amazon.com/Parts-Express-.../dp/B0002ZPINC


----------



## Davinleeds




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Blackduck* /forum/post/13654175
> 
> 
> Okay, me again. Now I am trying to figure out signal strength fluctuation. Sometimes the signals are very steady, others, like last night, the are up and down, from really strong to weak, causing dropouts. I am currently using a CM 4228, but have had the problem with other antennas. I understand multipath could be the cause, however, I don't recall any ghosting problems when I was using analog. As always thanks for everyone's time and help.
> 
> 
> Walter



I've got hills, 4228, 91XG, with preamps,rotors and samsung dtb h260f with fluctuating signal strength and the best description of what I experience is fading. Too close to the hill. Sat locals seem to be in the cards.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mclapp* /forum/post/13651261
> 
> 
> I've also found that using a 36" x 36" screen behind a 4 bay antenna like a CM 4221 or w4400 greatly improves VHF high reception and slightly improves UHF reception.



Do you try to space the screen so that it will act as a reflector at a target frequency, or do you just place the screen close to the elements primarily to shield signals from the back of the antenna?


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/13659035
> 
> 
> Do you try to space the screen so that it will act as a reflector at a target frequency, or do you just place the screen close to the elements primarily to shield signals from the back of the antenna?



The screen is used as a reflector and is spaced at the same distance as the original smaller reflector. My semi educated guess is that the larger reflector actually works as a reflector on VHF HI as opposed to the smaller stock size. I use a 5" spacing on my antennas but they are tuned for best gain and SWR match from ch 14 - 50. I imagine that 4 1/2" spacing would be fine on a stock cm4221 or winegard 4400


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Blackduck* /forum/post/13654175
> 
> 
> Okay, me again. Now I am trying to figure out signal strength fluctuation. Sometimes the signals are very steady, others, like last night, the are up and down, from really strong to weak, causing dropouts. I am currently using a CM 4228, but have had the problem with other antennas. I understand multipath could be the cause, however, I don't recall any ghosting problems when I was using analog. As always thanks for everyone's time and help.
> 
> 
> Walter



Just a shot in the dark but you could be getting noise generated from any one of a number of sources causing your problems. Since the digital signal indicators built into most receivers are signal to noise ratio indicators not absolute signal strength a high noise level due to static generated by power lines, neon signs, electric fences, motorized houseold items can raise havoc with DTV. I had powerline problems, almost every time it rained my DTV signals would drop out but the analog signals looked fine except for some small static bars on the vhf channels. I used an AM radio to confirm the noise issue and the electric company came out and fixed the problem (tree limbs lying on the lines).


----------



## PCTools

My testing also revealed it did slightly better than the 4228.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/13659822
> 
> 
> The 91 xg will out perform the hd9095 and pr 9032. you will need a rotor. You can also tilt the 91xg easily 10-15 degrees. you might get lucky.
> 
> 
> 
> go higher


----------



## PCTools

Anyone ever put some 1/4" screening on the reflectors of their 91XG?


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *degarb* /forum/post/13658000
> 
> 
> Is there a filter to filter out the light switch noise, the blender rf, etc? I am thinking at converter box, since the line out from filter might pickup RF. I was also wondering if shielding all connectors with foil duct tape might help.
> 
> 
> Also, I have had no luck with the kmart/walmart amps with dtv. Only the 60$ amp for mast antenna.



Light switch and universal motor noise is broadband and can't really be filtered. Your best bet is to avoid picking it up to begin with -- make sure your antenna isn't pointing at the source, and make sure your connections and connectors are good. If the connectors are good, adding foil shouldn't help and might hurt (by acting as an antenna itself)


----------



## PCTools

MAXHD,


Just ordered the American 50'. Decided to pass on the Rohn 20, and save the $100. Could not pass-up the $850 deal for the install with my antennas.


Will be talking to you about that highbander (real soon). Do you have a data sheet for it?


----------



## Junglerock

Last year I replaced an old wore out rotor with a CM 9521A. Whilst I was on the roof I noticed the old Radio Shack antenna was shy a few elements and decided I should replace it too and a year later I'm fixing to do just that. Anyway I picked up a 91XG and a YA 1713. I also got a TB-105 support bearing.


The bearing appears to be made for 1.5" mast. I've got three 5' masts laying around and they are all 1.25" in diameter. Where can I find 1.5" mast or do I need to send the bearing back for something smaller? I checked Radio Shack, and all they had was 1.25".


By the way the bearing is made in China (like just about everything else) and doesn't appear to be very good quality, but what do I know?


----------



## degarb

What is the opinion of the Monster power strips' effect on ota dtv reception? What about generic versions?


Also, I am cloudy as to what clean power can do, and if those have the rg6/59 filter.


----------



## faberryman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13588534
> 
> 
> One easy option when stations are 180* apart is to use a multi-bay antenna like the DB4 or CM4221 without it's reflector.



Would removing the V-shaped reflectors on a yagi style UHF antenna achieve the same result?


----------



## Neil L

The same result? No. Removing the corner reflector from a Yagi will greatly reduce it's forward gain. Especially in the lower UHF frequencies. While allowing a little better reception from the back, it will have 0db gain over a dipole from the rear, and not much better from the front. The multiple bow-tie style works much better for a figure-8 pattern with gain in both forward and rearward directions.


----------



## fbov

I agree with Neil L., faberryman.


A bowtie is a simple dipole, and there's one in every Yagi, too, but only one and it's not alone. Yagi's use the elements in front (directors) as much as the ones behind (reflectors) to focus EM energy onto the single dipole element. The directionalilty is built into the directors as much or more than the reflector, and the reflector has, as noted, a strong effect on lower channel gain.


Here's some Yagi modeling results, with and without the reflector, about 2/3 of the way down.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/types.html 


Bowtie arrays use interactions among the elements to focus gain in a preferred axis, and a reflector just makes that bi-directional gain pattern a one-sided pattern.


Frank


----------



## AubieKermit

Hey guys,


I'm a newbie to the OTA stuff. I just ordered Dish Network (install set for next Friday) and I want to get my locals in HD (not offered in Montgomery, AL). I've been doing some research on these antennas and have decided that I better go ahead and get one. I'm looking at either the DB4 or the DB8 multidirectional because our NBC affiliate here in montgomery is at 182 degrees while everything else is between 250 and 280. Would this be a good idea? I could use all the help I can get right now...


TIA


Keith


----------



## Falcon_77

I have a couple of questions:


1) If a bow-tie antenna closely resembles a simple dipole, why does it need to be twice as wide? Each "whisker" of a 422x bow-tie is about 8", which would be the length of both sides of a simple dipole, right?


2) After reviewing the 4248 results on the HDTV Primer site w/o the corner reflector, would there be any benefit to using one for upper VHF or is the band narrow enough to alleviate this need. The effect on UHF was an eye opener.


Thanks,


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AubieKermit* /forum/post/13675286
> 
> 
> I'm looking at either the DB4 or the DB8 multidirectional because our NBC affiliate here in montgomery is at 182 degrees while everything else is between 250 and 280. Would this be a good idea? I could use all the help I can get right now...



The TVFool.com plot for your ZIP code shows strong signals of -36 to -67dBm. You may want to run one for your exact coordinates to be sure, however.


WSFA/NBC will be returning to VHF 12 next year, so you may want to consider adding a VHF antenna if the DB4, etc. doesn't work out. However, WCOV/FOX is slated to be in the same direction as NBC next year, but it will be on UHF. (if both were VHF in that direction it would simplify things) Wouldn't co-location be nice?


For now, you may get lucky and find that there is an angle which will allow you to pick up all the needed stations. A Channel Master 4221 is another 4-bay to consider and it isn't too bad at VHF 12 for a UHF antenna.


----------



## AubieKermit




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *n4yqt* /forum/post/13676024
> 
> 
> Keith: The DB-4 and DB-8 are over priced garbage. Consider a quality, American made product of Channel Master such as CM-4221 (4-bay) UHF antenna
> 
> http://www.channelmasterintl.com/4221.html
> 
> 
> or, even better, a CM-4228 (8-bay) UHF antenna instead.
> 
> http://www.channelmasterintl.com/4228.html



Would I need to get a rotator for these antennas, or are they multi-directional?


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AubieKermit* /forum/post/13676349
> 
> 
> Would I need to get a rotator for these antennas, or are they multi-directional?



The 4221 has a wider angle than the 4228. The higher the gain, the more directional the antenna is. Looking at the ZIP code plot, the 4221 should do the job, but I would suggest running your exact plot to be sure.


However, you may need a rotator regardless of which antenna(s) you choose. It can be tricky to get stations over 45 degrees apart, even with a 4221.


A gain plot for the 4221 may help illustrate this point:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4221.html


----------



## PCTools

I assume you have the same thoughts for the 91XG?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *n4yqt* /forum/post/13676024
> 
> 
> Keith: The DB-4 and DB-8 are over priced garbage. Consider a quality, American made product of Channel Master such as CM-4221 (4-bay) UHF antenna
> 
> http://www.channelmasterintl.com/4221.html
> 
> 
> or, even better, a CM-4228 (8-bay) UHF antenna instead.
> 
> http://www.channelmasterintl.com/4228.html


----------



## cpcat

The DB4/DB8 are comparable in uhf performance to the 4221/4228 but cost twice as much or more. Additionally, as the DB8 has non-continuous back-screening, it is a much poorer performer for high vhf vs. the 4228.


----------



## Blackduck

After weeks of playing around with different antennas and amps, I am beginning to think it might be not in the cards. Up until 2 weeks ago, I thought I might win. I had good reception for about two months, February and March with a RS VU-190. In trying to make things better, I've tried a number of antennas, which I've mentioned in earlier post, none giving any real improvement. I have yet to try the 91XG. I will most likely give it a try, because I can return it, unlike some of the others in my collection. I wish I could say I was at all hopeful of it working, buy I'm not. Stations that have been giving me good signals are lately not even a blip, than an hour later are at full strength. At this point, antennas seem to be as rational as the stock market. I am posting my TVfool results again, in case anyone is interested. I might be back, if not, thanks so much for all the help that has been offered by many of you on this great site. Walter


----------



## bozey45

I'd sure try the 91-XG with a pre-amp at your distance from the stations, the CM-7777 with the 91-XG should work pretty well, will sure need a rotor though, the 91-XG is extremely directional. I need a rotor with mine hopefully this next week I'll get one. Plus you can tilt the 91-XG up 12-15 degrees if you have a tee problem or some other obstruction. I can get Orlando stations analog and digital from here even in daytime with the 91-XG at distances of 70-85 or so miles. There is some fade on analogs during mid-day but having no rotor yet i can't make a true judgement because can't pinpoint.


----------



## ctdish

bozy45, Blackduck is probably not going to see a significant improvement by changing antennas. He is 5 miles closer to the stations than I am but tvfool indicates his signals are about 6 dB weaker than what I get. We are both receiving signals that are blocked by at least two sets of hills. This is not Florida- it is likely there is a hill 500 feet high 5 miles away from the us blocking the signal and another one 10 -20 miles away at 1000 feet high. Also the transmitters are located about 300 meters above average terrain. What is the Orlando transmitter antenna height? Tilting antenna up in almost all cases will make the signal weaker. The solution for blockage is to raise the antenna.

John


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Blackduck* /forum/post/13680339
> 
> 
> After weeks of playing around with different antennas and amps, I am beginning to think it might be not in the cards. Up until 2 weeks ago, I thought I might win. I had good reception for about two months, February and March with a RS VU-190. In trying to make things better, I've tried a number of antennas, which I've mentioned in earlier post, none giving any real improvement. I have yet to try the 91XG. I will most likely give it a try, because I can return it, unlike some of the others in my collection. I wish I could say I was at all hopeful of it working, buy I'm not. Stations that have been giving me good signals are lately not even a blip, than an hour later are at full strength. At this point, antennas seem to be as rational as the stock market. I am posting my TVfool results again, in case anyone is interested. I might be back, if not, thanks so much for all the help that has been offered by many of you on this great site. Walter



Looking at your TV Fool plot results as compared to my parent's house in Mystic, it does not look good. Did the trees start filling in early this year?


With all the trees we have in the area and the hills, I have problems with stations above -110dBm, especially pointed towards Providence. I can only receive WPRI on VHF 13 in that direction. The Hartford (New Britain) results were better, but one of the two local ION stations (WHPX) make reception difficult. The other ION station, WPXQ, is a problem when pointing to Providence.


Another poster had similar problems in Westerly, though he seemed to be in a better spot. Have you tried posting to the local reception forum (Providence)?


If we can ever get any SFN's, SE CT and SW RI could really benefit. I'm still baffled that WNAC is pointing most of its energy away from this area and, from their post-transition application, still plans to do so.


----------



## ctdish

I wonder if WPRI will share WNAC's antenna post transition antenna and we lose both CBS and FOX from RI.

John


----------



## Blackduck

John


Was the reception bad this weekend, strong signals fading to very weak, then back to strong in short time periods? Is this to be expected until next fall or winter? I didn't mind the fluctuations with analog, because most networks were almost always quite viewable, but the digital dropouts will drive one insane. I hate to give in to dish people, but my sanity is more important. Thanks Walter - No Falcon, no leaves yet. You mean it can get worse?


----------



## mlindley

I am moving out of my condo into a house so I can finally have Satellite and OTA! But I am new to OTA stuff so I'm nervous about making a mistake. I'm thinking I want to get a CM 4220 and mount it on my roof. I have a friend that bought the RS 15-1634 and has had good success with it, but as I've not seen much mention of it in these forums, I'm leaning towards brands that you guys have had success with.


Do you think a roof-mounted CM 4220 would be sufficient for the attached radar info? My NBC affiliate is pretty far away, but we're supposed to be getting a local one in a few months, so i'm not as worried about that one specifically.


Do I need to plan for any pre-amps or amps?


Any advice would be appreciated!


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mlindley* /forum/post/13691886
> 
> 
> Do you think a roof-mounted CM 4220 would be sufficient for the attached radar info? Any advice would be appreciated!



No. The 4220 is a UHF antenna. There are two VHF stations that you should be able to receive.


Yet if would be happy with CBS, CW, FOX, and ABC and could live without PBS and NBC, the 4220 would get those 4 stations.


To get all networks, try the Winegard HD7696P with a rotator. I wouldn't buy a preamp unless you have excessive dropouts.


----------



## mlindley




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/13692078
> 
> 
> No. The 4220 is a UHF antenna. There are two VHF stations that you should be able to receive.
> 
> 
> Yet if would be happy with CBS, CW, FOX, and ABC and could live without PBS and NBC, the 4220 would get those 4 stations.
> 
> 
> To get all networks, try the Winegard HD7696P with a rotator. I wouldn't buy a preamp unless you have excessive dropouts.



I'm not too worried about the VHF stations as I have a UHF ABC available and could care less about PBS. I'd like to get NBC, but as it should fall into the range of other local stations in just a month or two, I don't think it would be prudent to make a decision based on getting the one that is long range to me right now.


I was slightly concerned about the fact that the 4220 doesn't say "omnidirectional" but I assume it is, is that a correct assumption? I'm mainly thinking the 4220 b/c of cost and footprint, I don't want a massive antenna if I can help it.


----------



## ctdish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Blackduck* /forum/post/13691633
> 
> 
> John
> 
> 
> Was the reception bad this weekend, strong signals fading to very weak, then back to strong in short time periods? Is this to be expected until next fall or winter? I didn't mind the fluctuations with analog, because most networks were almost always quite viewable, but the digital dropouts will drive one insane. I hate to give in to dish people, but my sanity is more important. Thanks Walter - No Falcon, no leaves yet. You mean it can get worse?



See my post in the local forum, Providence thread. The leaves have a small affect but what we see is caused mostly by changes in temperature layering in the troposphere resulting in signal bending.- sometimes towards and sometimes away from your location. This can result in reception from hundreds of miles which is bad for the local stations where we see the interference on analog stations and a loss of signal on digital stations. This is most common in the summer often a few nights a week. Back around 2000, the locals were not on digital yet and several evenings I was able to watch whole shows on WCBS-DT from NY at 115 miles. I have also received digital station from VA a Few times. Things should get a little better after analog shutdown.

John


----------



## ctdish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mlindley* /forum/post/13692144
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was slightly concerned about the fact that the 4220 doesn't say "omnidirectional" but I assume it is, is that a correct assumption? I'm mainly thinking the 4220 b/c of cost and footprint, I don't want a massive antenna if I can help it.



The CM4220 is not omnidirectional. It is unidirectional as are most TV antennas and any TV antenna with much gain.

John


----------



## mlindley




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/13692732
> 
> 
> The CM4220 is not omnidirectional. It is unidirectional as are most TV antennas and any TV antenna with much gain.
> 
> John



Thank you, I guess that was a dumb assumption. I think it would probably still work for me as most everything comes from the NE, but at least I can factor that into my decision accurately now.


----------



## Konrad2

> I thought the 91xg was a big piece of junk when I first saw the

> box and the ridiculous packages of pieces and parts in it . The

> 91xg works but overall build is questionable.


Does someone make a yagi with similar performance to the 91xg but

with higher build quality?


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mlindley* /forum/post/13693237
> 
> 
> Thank you, I guess that was a dumb assumption. I think it would probably still work for me as most everything comes from the NE, but at least I can factor that into my decision accurately now.



One nice thing about multi-bay arrays (like the 4220/4221/4228) is that their directional characteristics are due to the reflector. Remove it and you have a bi-directional antenna, which may be a better choice given your signal pattern. It's gain in any one direction is lower, but it's equal front and back, zero to the sides. You can get some of that gain back by moving from a 2-bay 4220 to a 4-bay 4221 while retaining the bi-directional gain pattern.


The best part (to me) is that if you want, you can make one to see if it works!
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798265 


Frank


----------



## donnyjaguar

Hey Blackduck, are you sure you aren't getting overloaded by that 3/4 of a million watts of energy 11 miles distant? That could explain a lot of your grief.


The CM4220 are popular antennas, but I use a wideband Delhi CYD1470 yagi and it works perfectly fine. I don't want a big flyswatter on my tower thanks.


----------



## ctdish

The 4248 appear to have been discontinued. That is too bad since it appears to be the about the best yagi out there. It tested better than the 91xg here.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6245872


----------



## Blackduck

donnyyaguar

No, I'm not sure, I just haven't figured out how to get rid of it without having a filter made for 17 and 69. I think they are always broadcasting. I thought of asking them to shut down for an hour or so, but I don't think they'd go for it. Seriously, I tried running without any amplification, still a lot of signal fluctuation, just at lesser levels. On paper, the station should be in a null of most of the antennas I've tried, but it is always there, strong, no matter what direction the antenna faces. If you or anyone have any suggestions on how to isolate it, even temporally, please let me know. I would just hate to spend more money on another wild goose chase.


----------



## Falcon_77

Filtering out 69 probably isn't worth your time at this point, but getting a filter for 17 is easy enough, if you don't need any UHF channels under 20. This cable TV filter eliminated it, but as I wasn't able to get Providence UHF channels anyway, I sent it back:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...?prod=CPNF-469 


Custom filters are expensive, but I will be trying one on my next trip.


----------



## Blackduck

falcon_77

Seems you would have to get rid of 69 as well as 17 to test. By the way, I have a hunch ctdish would have tried this already, but maybe not.


----------



## allargon

I've read some but not all of this thread.


Are there any *INDOOR* preferably amplified type antennas that would be like a rectangular window screen grid or something that would go behind a painting, etc. for aesthetics purposes? I'm looking for something that's less of an eyesore than rabbit ears, but less work involved than running an attic antenna.


----------



## fbov

Allargon,

See the link in post 1729 above; spokybob has some nice shots. Bowtie arrays vary in size but their most basic form is flat, so there are a number of things that can be done. This is my favorite:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...&postcount=260 


Placement will depend somewhat on the orientation of the room relative to the stations and which way the antenna needs to point. A basic 2-bay bowtie (CM4220, DB-2, etc.) without the reflector will fit behind an 18x20" wall hanging, and can be made less than 1" thick.


If no one's asked yet, please post a TVFool.com analysis for your house so we have some idea what kind of signal field you've got. There's a signal analysis FAQ that explains the values.


Frank


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/13693451
> 
> 
> > I thought the 91xg was a big piece of junk when I first saw the
> 
> > box and the ridiculous packages of pieces and parts in it . The
> 
> > 91xg works but overall build is questionable.
> 
> 
> Does someone make a yagi with similar performance to the 91xg but
> 
> with higher build quality?



Televes DAT 75, Funke 4591, Triax Unix 100 wide band uhf version


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Blackduck* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Seems you would have to get rid of 69 as well as 17 to test. By the way, I have a hunch ctdish would have tried this already, but maybe not.



WPXQ 69 is surprisingly weak in Mystic. I don't know if it is just the trees or if they are broadcasting at reduced power, but WPXQ 17 is very strong by comparison. I had a custom 17/26 filter made a while back, but haven't had a chance to test it yet.


Of course, until WHPX turns off their DTV 34 transmitter, it may not help much.


I did some more digging and found some info on an old antenna:

http://www.rocketroberts.com/cm4251/cm4251.htm 


Wouldn't this be fun to try...










Of course, I probably will never see one, but the author of the article appears to be local to Mystic. Have you seen one of these, John?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mlindley* /forum/post/13692144
> 
> 
> I was slightly concerned about the fact that the 4220 doesn't say "omnidirectional" but I assume it is, is that a correct assumption?



The 4220 does not say multidirectional because is is somewhat unidirectional. A multidirectional antenna is often a bad thing. Multidirectional antennas pick up less signal and are prone to multipath.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *n4yqt* /forum/post/13692591
> 
> 
> It's bigger brother, the CM-4228, should do the trick.
> http://www.channelmasterintl.com/4228.html



With stations raging from 59 degrees to 85 degrees, the narrow beam of the 4228 would be a mistake.


----------



## Falcon_77

Speaking of defunct antennas, what happened to the CM Quantum series?


I installed one of those in the mid to late 90's, but moved away from that house soon after. As I recall, it did not have a UHF corner reflector and had "parasitic fly elements." I don't remember it performing much better than the old VHF/UHF combo we had though. Once in a great while I will see one, but I'm assuming it was never very popular?


----------



## fbov

Great sites for the parabolics! Anyone else notice that the active element is a 2-bay bowtie with reflector, aimed back into the parabola?


----------



## allargon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13695950
> 
> 
> Allargon,
> 
> See the link in post 1729 above; spokybob has some nice shots. Bowtie arrays vary in size but their most basic form is flat, so there are a number of things that can be done. This is my favorite:
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...&postcount=260
> 
> 
> Placement will depend somewhat on the orientation of the room relative to the stations and which way the antenna needs to point. A basic 2-bay bowtie (CM4220, DB-2, etc.) without the reflector will fit behind an 18x20" wall hanging, and can be made less than 1" thick.
> 
> 
> If no one's asked yet, please post a TVFool.com analysis for your house so we have some idea what kind of signal field you've got. There's a signal analysis FAQ that explains the values.
> 
> 
> Frank



Thanks, Frank.


Here's my TV fool info: (I didn't embed to keep the page load small for this thread.)

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m..._Radar-All.png 



Here's my antenna web info



> Quote:
> DTV Antenna
> 
> Type Call Sign Channel Network City, State Live
> 
> Date Compass
> 
> Heading Miles
> 
> From Frequency
> 
> Assignment
> 
> yellow
> 
> uhf KLRU 18 PBS AUSTIN, TX 192° 12.2 18
> 
> * yellow
> 
> uhf KNVA-DT 54.1 CW AUSTIN, TX 191° 11.9 49
> 
> yellow
> 
> uhf KNVA 54 CW AUSTIN, TX 191° 11.9 54
> 
> * yellow
> 
> uhf KLRU-DT 18.1 PBS AUSTIN, TX 188° 12.0 22
> 
> * yellow
> 
> vhf KTBC-DT 7.1 FOX AUSTIN, TX Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 188° 12.9 7
> 
> * yellow
> 
> uhf KEYE-DT 42.1 CBS AUSTIN, TX 192° 12.3 43
> 
> yellow
> 
> uhf KEYE 42 CBS AUSTIN, TX 192° 12.3 42
> 
> yellow
> 
> vhf KTBC 7 FOX AUSTIN, TX 188° 12.9 7
> 
> yellow
> 
> uhf KVUE 24 ABC AUSTIN, TX 192° 12.2 24
> 
> * yellow
> 
> uhf KXAN-DT 3.1 NBC AUSTIN, TX 191° 11.9 21
> 
> yellow
> 
> uhf KXAN 36 NBC AUSTIN, TX 191° 11.9 36
> 
> * yellow
> 
> uhf KVUE-DT 24.1 ABC AUSTIN, TX 192° 12.3 33
> 
> green
> 
> uhf KHPZ-CA 15 TFA AUSTIN, TX 28° 9.0 15
> 
> green
> 
> uhf KBVO-CA 51 TFA AUSTIN, TX 191° 11.9 51
> 
> lt green
> 
> uhf KHPX-CA 28 TFA AUSTIN, TX 33° 8.1 28
> 
> * red
> 
> vhf KAKW-DT 62.1 UNI KILLEEN, TX 313° 21.8 13
> 
> red
> 
> uhf KAKW 62 UNI KILLEEN, TX 313° 21.8 62
> 
> * red
> 
> uhf KTBC-DT 7.1 FOX AUSTIN, TX 188° 12.9 56
> 
> * blue
> 
> vhf KWTX-DT 10.1 CBS WACO, TX Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 19° 62.7 10
> 
> blue
> 
> uhf KWKT 44 FOX WACO, TX 18° 61.9 44
> 
> blue
> 
> uhf KDAS-CA 31 UNI AUSTIN, TX 192° 12.1 31
> 
> blue
> 
> vhf KWTX 10 CBS WACO, TX 19° 62.7 10
> 
> blue
> 
> uhf KXXV 25 ABC WACO, TX 19° 63.8 25
> 
> blue
> 
> uhf KNCT 46 PBS BELTON, TX 6° 34.8 46
> 
> blue
> 
> vhf KCEN 6 NBC TEMPLE, TX 25° 62.2 6
> 
> * violet
> 
> uhf KNCT-DT 46 PBS BELTON, TX Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 6° 34.8 46
> 
> * violet
> 
> uhf KNCT-DT 46.1 PBS BELTON, TX 6° 34.8 38
> 
> * violet
> 
> vhf KCWX-DT 2.1 CW FREDERICKSBURG, TX 01-09 240° 57.2 5
> 
> violet
> 
> vhf KCWX 2 CW FREDERICKSBURG, TX 240° 57.2 2
> 
> violet
> 
> vhf K09VR 9 IND AUSTIN, TX 174° 14.2 9


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/13675474
> 
> 
> I have a couple of questions:
> 
> 
> 1) If a bow-tie antenna closely resembles a simple dipole, why does it need to be twice as wide? Each "whisker" of a 422x bow-tie is about 8", which would be the length of both sides of a simple dipole, right?
> 
> 
> 2) After reviewing the 4248 results on the HDTV Primer site w/o the corner reflector, would there be any benefit to using one for upper VHF or is the band narrow enough to alleviate this need. The effect on UHF was an eye opener.
> 
> 
> Thanks,



1) You're exactly right. I think it has something to do with the bowtie shape, since that spread is supposed to affect frequency spread of the gain curve. I've tried my antenna once with the wiskers parallel, and it didn't work as well, but it wasn't a serious test.


2) Sure; I think that's what the Wade single channel VHF antennas look like. I'd be more interested in the corner reflector, given its broad flat gain curve, but it gets big, fast at lower frequencies.


Frank


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *allargon* /forum/post/13697913
> 
> 
> Thanks, Frank.
> 
> 
> Here's my TV fool info: ...



You'll get lots of stations with just about anything resembling an antenna!


I'd love to have this kind of signal field ... Unless you're in a steel building, one of the home-built 4-bays will probably give you lots of stations. I would avoid amplification unless you have a long coax run; you don't need it to get these stations.


It's also possible ... Yes, there's a bunch more stations at weaker signal levels that don't fit when analog stations are shown. You're in serious DX-ing territory if you have an uncontrollable urge to spend money on OTA equipment.


Frank


----------



## PCTools

I would disagree. My testing, has revealed that this big beast will not always capture the HD feeds as well as the yagi type antennas. I have a 12 of these 4251's. Even did the chicken wire thing, and decided to remove it.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *n4yqt* /forum/post/13697436
> 
> 
> The best UHF antenna ever made for consumer use.
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/n4yqt/fimag...pe42504251.jpg


----------



## donnyjaguar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *degarb* /forum/post/13658000
> 
> 
> Is there a filter to filter out the light switch noise, the blender rf, etc? I am thinking at converter box, since the line out from filter might pickup RF. I was also wondering if shielding all connectors with foil duct tape might help.
> 
> 
> Also, I have had no luck with the kmart/walmart amps with dtv. Only the 60$ amp for mast antenna.



Generally this type of interference is as a result of the receiving antenna being too near the source of the interference. This is especially true if you are talking about an indoor antenna. Putting a proper outdoor antenna up will help not only putting distance between the antenna and interference, but increasing the level of the TV signal such that the interference will have less effect.


My thoughts on power conditioners are they shouldn't be necessary. I don't find the need for them myself. If your power is dirty you need to get with your power company and complain. Not sure where you live, but they are obligated to serve up the appropriate voltage to your house without noise, brownouts and surges. All of which can damage your equipment.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13698627
> 
> 
> It's also possible ... Yes, there's a bunch more stations at weaker signal levels that don't fit when analog stations are shown. You're in serious DX-ing territory if you have an uncontrollable urge to spend money on OTA equipment.



DX'ing can be difficult in areas like this. There are few channels not blanketed by locals, but it should improve post-transition.


So much for White Spaces, huh?


----------



## fbov

What White Space? There's precious little around Austin! Maybe WSD's won't work in the plains ...


----------



## allargon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13698627
> 
> 
> You'll get lots of stations with just about anything resembling an antenna!
> 
> 
> I'd love to have this kind of signal field ... Unless you're in a steel building, one of the home-built 4-bays will probably give you lots of stations. I would avoid amplification unless you have a long coax run; you don't need it to get these stations.
> 
> 
> It's also possible ... Yes, there's a bunch more stations at weaker signal levels that don't fit when analog stations are shown. You're in serious DX-ing territory if you have an uncontrollable urge to spend money on OTA equipment.
> 
> 
> Frank



The subchannels and PBS are iffy. The same goes for the digital Univision station at 13 (62.1) I'm currently using the Philips +50dB gain split to my Mitsubishi 57732 and my Dish Network vip622. http://www.consumer.philips.com/cons...nna+SDV2510-27 All of my high powered analog stations come in crystal clear. I will drop by Fry's and look at their bowties as well as check out some of the Terk's (HDTVa, HDTVlp, TV5) to see if that will help. Thanks again for looking.


I wouldn't call it uncontrollable. I just don't like unstable signals when the weather is cloudy, etc. Pixelation is no fun. Therefore, I want the best signal I can get without getting a large outdoor or attic or clip-on to my satellite dish antenna.


----------



## gcd0865

Hi All:


I'm currently using a cheapie Radio Shack 300 to 75-ohm balun connector on my CM4228, and it works fine (or so I think). Wondering if there's any better quality balun out there that I should consider putting on there that might eek out a little more signal by providing a better coax line match.


Thanks in advance...


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *allargon* /forum/post/13695814
> 
> 
> I've read some but not all of this thread.
> 
> 
> Are there any *INDOOR* preferably amplified type antennas that would be like a rectangular window screen grid or something that would go behind a painting, etc. for aesthetics purposes? I'm looking for something that's less of an eyesore than rabbit ears, but less work involved than running an attic antenna.



FYI: Antennas Direct makes a Picture Frame UHF antenna:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/PF7_antenna.html 
http://www.antennasdirect.com/images/hires/pf7.jpg 
http://www.antennasdirect.com/pdf/IndoorAntennas.pdf 

The Lacrosse Micron (above) was just announced and looks

like an oversized napkin (or mail?) holder....


There are also several vertical mount Planar UHF Antennas:
http://newcaststore.com/digital-flat-antenna-an2.html 
http://artectv.com/ehtm/products/an2.htm 
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...T_ANTENNA.html 

also:
http://www.itenna.com/ 
http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4211173 

and:
http://www.kowatec.com/prod/cis/products.php?i=cs102 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcfidQbMA2w 


This one is fatter:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000VL1QF6?...0&linkCode=asn 
http://www.buy.com/prod/philips-mant...205604033.html 


You could also try a simple UHF loop:
http://www.cnaweb.com/index.asp?Page...OD&ProdID=1843 


Planar antennas need to mounted so they are NOT on a wall in SAME line as stations.


Minimal VHF performance may or may not be adequate for now and Post-Feb2009....

At which point you may also need an indoor VHF antenna, such as a DIY Folded Dipole:
http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gcd0865* /forum/post/13701519
> 
> 
> Hi All:
> 
> 
> I'm currently using a cheapie Radio Shack 300 to 75-ohm balun connector on my CM4228, and it works fine (or so I think). Wondering if there's any better quality balun out there that I should consider putting on there that might eek out a little more signal by providing a better coax line match.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance...


 http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html 


About half way down is a short comparison of a couple RS baluns with a Channel Master, with clear winners and losers, as on the pre-amp compaison below it, but without the latter's big effect on reception. 0.5dB isn't much.


I thought CM included a balun with their antennas?


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *allargon* /forum/post/13701419
> 
> 
> The subchannels and PBS are iffy. The same goes for the digital Univision station at 13 (62.1) I'm currently using the Philips +50dB gain split to my Mitsubishi 57732 and my Dish Network vip622. ... All of my high powered analog stations come in crystal clear. ...



I would have called PBS and Uni "strong" stations! Uni is VHF 13 so you're adjusting the rabbit ears, right? When you say PBS you mean KLRU? If so, how does KXAN do, 1 channel over? If you mean KNCT, you'll need more antenna for that one.


Looking at the TVFool plot, I don't see a need for an amp, especially one with 50 dB of gain! You only have 1 splitter (-4dB) and RG-6 is ~-6dB/100 ft. so there's not enough loss to worry about. The gain's adjustable; what happens when you turn it down/off? With so many strong signals, multipath can be expected and overload would not be a surprise with 50dB of gain.


I've never seen subchannels drop out when the main channel was locked; their quality is degraded by the limited bandwidth. Are you seeing more than bandwidth limits?


Analog and digital signals are fundamentally different in composition and in weaknesses; analog needs "strong as possible," digital only "strong enough." Analog sees multipath as a ghost image, digital drops out. If low signal strength is not your problem, perhaps high signal is?


Turn down the amp and let us know what you get.

Frank


----------



## allargon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13703650
> 
> 
> I would have called PBS and Uni "strong" stations! Uni is VHF 13 so you're adjusting the rabbit ears, right? When you say PBS you mean KLRU? If so, how does KXAN do, 1 channel over? If you mean KNCT, you'll need more antenna for that one.
> 
> 
> Looking at the TVFool plot, I don't see a need for an amp, especially one with 50 dB of gain! You only have 1 splitter (-4dB) and RG-6 is ~-6dB/100 ft. so there's not enough loss to worry about. The gain's adjustable; what happens when you turn it down/off? With so many strong signals, multipath can be expected and overload would not be a surprise with 50dB of gain.
> 
> 
> I've never seen subchannels drop out when the main channel was locked; their quality is degraded by the limited bandwidth. Are you seeing more than bandwidth limits?
> 
> 
> Analog and digital signals are fundamentally different in composition and in weaknesses; analog needs "strong as possible," digital only "strong enough." Analog sees multipath as a ghost image, digital drops out. If low signal strength is not your problem, perhaps high signal is?
> 
> 
> Turn down the amp and let us know what you get.
> 
> Frank



The compression artifacts are likely due to the subchannels. However, I believe the pixelation, freezes and breakups are due to reception issues. I'll turn it down. I had some issues I used to have my antenna on top of my tower to the right of my display. I have since set it down on the hearth of my fireplace. (This is Central TX. It's really just for show.) I'll crank the gain down. I never had it up to max. Max caused more problems. I never tried the lower settings. I definitely need an amplified antenna for our CW channel (54.1/49). I'm going to try it at half power. (My local Fry's didn't have any of the good Terks--only the generic rabbit ears.)



=====post edit=====


Lost Univision (analog AND digital) doing it that way. For some strange reason, I am still having difficulty getting subchannel 24.2 (weather) on my TV's tuner, but not on my Dish receiver. I'll continue playing with it. Oh... I definitely meant KLRU for PBS. KXAN is fine for an NBC station. The macroblocking w/ KXAN with football games is due to NBC being NBC.


Thank you, Frank, Holl_ands and others for assisting me with this.


----------



## PCTools

I totally agree about the 91XG.


The facts:


Best price on-line: $59.49 + shipping


In my opinion, it is the best bang for the buck.


End of story...

http://www.antonline.com/p_Terrestri...91-_423299.htm


----------



## johnied

_Originally Posted by Falcon_77

I have a couple of questions:


1) If a bow-tie antenna closely resembles a simple dipole, why does it need to be twice as wide? Each "whisker" of a 422x bow-tie is about 8", which would be the length of both sides of a simple dipole, right?_



Yes, its still a dipole, think of the bow tie flat still a dipole.. Just increases

the bandwidth or frequency range for the same bow tie/dipole if it were flat..

ARRL Antenna Book is great for discussions on Antennas BTW.


Oh one more thing ever notice the active dipole or doriven element on some of the yagis notice the tubes curled around this does that same thing, making it effectively wider..


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13710244
> 
> 
> In my opinion, it is the best bang for the buck.



Over channel 50 at least. The 91XG is still a top performer under 50, however.


I am curious to see if they will put out a new design for 51, but perhaps not. I'm guessing that that "14-83" range is kept to allow for the international market to use it. I have seen the 91XG design in Europe and Australia, so it isn't clear to me which country can claim it as a native design.


----------



## HiramAbiff

Okay, I'm new to this thread, but I need help so I'll just dive right in. Even when I lived in a house I got spotty reception, but now that I'm in an apartment my reception is poor-to-non-existent.


I'm on the ground floor, and out the east windows, which faces closer to where the stations are, there are no obstructing buildings nearby. Out the west windows, there are some trees and the other apartment buildings. I get crap reception out of either, and I'm using rabbit ears with that little circular rotating thing in the middle, connected by shielded coax to my decoder.


I can put them high, up by a window, aim them all around, I get crap. I'm thinking I need an outdoor one, but I'm a little scared by the process. Are they permanent installations? Cuz I doubt they'd like me drilling holes. Plus I would like to *not* have a big long cable running through two rooms in my apartment if that can be avoided (which is what would be necessary were the antenna to be placed by the eastern windows). And it has to be cheap, too, since I only watch one station on weekdays (I work second shift so it's PBS HD for me).


----------



## The Hound

They sell u bolts designed to go around 2x4's, 4x4's, all different sizes.

So it doesn't have to be permanent.


It's hard to tell what you need with out a TVFOOL.com read out, go there.

As for cheap, depends what you consider cheap, maybe under $100.

Write back.


----------



## fbov

Hiram,

The Hound asks for a TVFool.com plot so we have some idea what channels are broadcast in your area, in what directions and what effective signal strength they have at your location. There are a number of alternatives, the cheapest of which starts here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798265 


Even a basic outdoor antenna, used indoors, will have lots more gain than a UHF loop and rabbit ears. The question is how much you need, and TVFool will help answer that.


Frank


----------



## HiramAbiff

Here ya go.


----------



## onan38

HI everyone i have a new u100 alliance rotor that i want to use on a outdoor antenna installation and noticed it has 4 wire connectors on the rotor and the control box where can i buy the wire at. Thanks


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HiramAbiff* /forum/post/13716239
> 
> 
> I'm on the ground floor, and out the east windows, which faces closer to where the stations are, there are no obstructing buildings nearby. Out the west windows, there are some trees and the other apartment buildings. I get crap reception out of either, and I'm using rabbit ears with that little circular rotating thing in the middle, connected by shielded coax to my decoder.



What do your analog results look like? Do you see a lot of ghosting? Which DTV stations can you receive? What tuner/TV are you using? Are you using an amplified antenna?


With signals in the -35dBm to -55dBm range, reception should not be difficult. However, amplified rabbit ears in such a setting can be a multi-path nightmare, especially for older tuners.


----------



## holl_ands

 http://www.summitsource.com/philips-...22-p-6703.html 
http://www.summitsource.com/rotator-...22-p-5442.html


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HiramAbiff* /forum/post/13720177
> 
> 
> Here ya go. ...



I'm using a home-built 4-bay bowtie array like those on the link I gave you yesterday, mounted in the attic with great success and my strongest station is -70 dBm. You should do at least as well in the living space because I don't see a big benefit moving to the attic. If nothing else, it's a cheap option to try and if you don't like it, hide it in a closet or behind the couch.


I started with a simple UHF clip-on like yours and was surprised I got a picture occassionally. It gave me the incentive to make a Yagi, now the 4-bay, which is rock steady at 90+ signal strength on all stations on my TV (but 60-80 signal strength using a DigitalStream DTX9900 CECB).


Frank


----------



## HiramAbiff




> Quote:
> What do your analog results look like?



Mostly crap.



> Quote:
> Do you see a lot of ghosting?



I don't think so, just lots of static.



> Quote:
> Which DTV stations can you receive?



I receive 4.1 and 28.1 most reliably. The rest are spotty-to-non-existent.



> Quote:
> What tuner/TV are you using? Are you using an amplified antenna?



Rabbit ears, and it's amplified but the amplification wasn't making a huge difference, plus it was shocking me whenever I adjusted the antenna so I left it unplugged.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HiramAbiff* /forum/post/13728865
> 
> 
> Rabbit ears, and it's amplified but the amplification wasn't making a huge difference, plus it was shocking me whenever I adjusted the antenna so I left it unplugged.



An antenna with an unplugged preamp is much worse than an antenna with no preamp.


----------



## holl_ands

If you are being shocked whenever you touch the amplified rabbit ears,

something is seriously WRONG....


THROW IT AWAY---BEFORE IT KILLS SOMEONE!!!!!!!


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13730348
> 
> 
> If you are being shocked whenever you touch the amplified rabbit ears,
> 
> something is seriously WRONG....
> 
> 
> THROW IT AWAY---BEFORE IT KILLS SOMEONE!!!!!!!



It could be more serious than the rabbit ears. Check your 120V outlets to see if they're wired properly.

The small flat blade should be Hot, the bigger flat blade should be Neutral, and the middle U shaped hole is ground. If you don't know how to confirm which is which, get a pro to look it over.


If your apt is old, it's VERY possible that there's been a wiring mistake made over the years. It's common for it to happen if a "grounded" outlet is used to replace an old 2-prong outlet in a home that has no ground system. (Of course it's also possible if the home/apt is not old.)


The house I grew up in had an outlet wired wrong in the garage. It's ground terminal was wired to the 120V hot. When we'd plug a car's engine heater into the outlet, the body of the car was at 120V potential !!! It existed that way for years until I discovered it and corrected it while in high school. No law or physical barrior prevents an idiot from wiring an outlet. So you gotta wonder....who wired yours ?


----------



## AntAltMike

I once serviced a C-band satellite installation in the old British Embassy in which the hot and neutral connections to the outlet had been swapped, and someone had then disconnected the outlet's ground wire, probably to stop it from tripping the breaker. The satellite receiver had a three-prong plug and apparently, there was a short from the isolation winding to the case, so the case was electrically hot, but because the receiver was set back on a wooden shelf and the owner used his remote control, this shock hazard persisted for years.


When I was on the roof, checking the dish alignment, I felt a heavy "thud" when I touched the mast, even though I was wearing sneakers, but I had no idea it was a solid line voltage source, so I came back with a ground wire to ground the mast, and I crawled into the ceiling crawlspace where I was going to connect the ground wire to a cold water pipe, but the groundwire was bare and it sparked as it grazed another metal object before I got to the point where I had the hot ground wire in one hand and the water pipe in the other.


I connected it to ground, and when I got back into the apartment, the resident said that something I did had tripped the 20 amp breaker and now he couldn't make it stay on. If he had reset it before I had completed the connection, I might be dead.


----------



## HiramAbiff

The antenna shocked me even when I lived in a new house.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HiramAbiff* /forum/post/13732458
> 
> 
> The antenna shocked me even when I lived in a new house.



Get rid of it!


Safety issues aside, whatever is causing that is probably also affecting reception.


Try a $10 un-amplified rabbit ear/loop combo and see what happens then. A Silver Sensor may be worth a look, but it's designed for UHF.


----------



## HiramAbiff

I'll try making fbov's suggestion, when I can. I have a screwdriver but no drill, so I'll have to scare one up for a few minutes' use.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/13675474
> 
> 
> I have a couple of questions:
> 
> 
> 1) If a bow-tie antenna closely resembles a simple dipole, why does it need to be twice as wide? Each "whisker" of a 422x bow-tie is about 8", which would be the length of both sides of a simple dipole, right?
> 
> 
> 2) After reviewing the 4248 results on the HDTV Primer site w/o the corner reflector, would there be any benefit to using one for upper VHF or is the band narrow enough to alleviate this need. The effect on UHF was an eye opener.



1) You are thinking of a half-wavelength dipole. UHF bowtie antennas usually use a full-wavelength dipole, with a fat element diameter for wide bandwidth. This configuration, which is sometimes called a collinear pair or 2-element collinear or two half-waves in phase, has a number of advantages. First, you get 1.6 dB more gain. Second, by selecting the proper shape and thickness of the elements you can achieve good bandwidth and a good match to the half-wavelength phasing lines that connect the dipoles together in the 4-bay array, at maximum possible gain.

For example: A 1-wavelength dipole with a total length of 16 inches (8" each side) and 1-1/2 inch diameter elements (L/D=approx 10) will have a BW of 130% and a feed point impedance of 330 ohms. (The feedpoint impedance with a thin diameter would be much higher.) A 2-bay using whiskers or triangles for CH 13, would have elements and phasing lines about 26 inches long.


References:

1. TV Antennas and Signal Distribution Systems by M. J. Salvati, Howard W. Sams #21584, 1979, ISBN 0-672-21584-5, pp 23 & 24. Fig 1-9 gives the bandwidth and impedance of 8 different dipoles (some for VHF). Chapter 3 bowtie and Hoverman info. Chapter 8 stacking info. This is a *must-have* book if you are interested TV antennas. I see 7 listings on isbn.nu for used copies, 5 on abebooks.com, 19 on bookfinder.com, and 20 on used.addall.com. You could also borrow interlibrary thru your library.

2. The ARRL Antenna Book (not The ARRL Handbook), chapter on VHF and UHF Antenna Systems, section on Large Collinear Arrays, pp 18-8 to 18-9 and fig 9 (showing the classic 4-bay) in the 18th Ed, ISBN 0-87259-613-3. Mentions why element should be supported at center instead of end to reduce losses. Basic theory is in Multielement Arrays chapter, section on Collinear Arrays, pp 8-32 to 8-33.

3. VHF/UHF Manual by G.R. Jessop, G6JP, 4th Ed, RSGB, Antennas section, pp 8.14 to 8.18 on stacked dipole arrays. Table 7 gives resonant lengths of full-wave dipoles of various diameter ratios; fat elements are shorter.

4. The Channel Master bowtie should more properly be called a fullwave fan dipole, which is a simplification of the fullwave bi-conical dipole. See Radio Communication Handbook, 5th Ed, RSGB, p 12.35.

5. Antenna Engineering Handbook, Johnson & Jasik, 2nd Ed, McGraw-Hill, 1984, ISBN 0-07-032291-0, Chapter 29 TV Receiving Antennas, Section 29-5 Triangular-Dipole Antennas, pp 29-12 to 29-13. Mentions why triangle is better than whiskers. (Update 8-28-10: but I'm not convinced.)

Fig 29-5 is an interesting gain vs freq chart of a bowtie with 7.5" 70 degree triangles, which I used to optimize an antenna for CH 15 using a formula derived from the first gain peak (about 570 MHz) of the top gain curve: L"=4300/F in MHz, giving me 2dB more gain than a CM3021 which is like the CM4221.

I used 9" sheet aluminum triangles (supported at the center of each triangle), 9" phasing lines between the dipoles, and a reflector of galvanized metal hardware cloth with 1/4-inch squares. This was mounted in an attic.


If I had to do it again I would use 5500/F (from the 2nd peak-733MHz) giving 9.5 to 10" elements with 10" bay spacing for CH 31, my weakest important channel. I'm using a new formula because we have lost the upper channels and because of the excellent computer modeling of UHF 4-bays with reflector done by *mclapp*.


I also tried phasing two 3021s using a 75ohm splitter/combiner, which gave me 2.5dB more than one as measured with my Sadelco 719-E Signal Level Meter (It has an analog rather than digital meter so I can see level changes as they happen.). I thought that my Sadelco wouldn't be of much use for DTV and I would have to resort to watching the drop-out on the TV when I inserted various levels of attenuation. But the Sadelco gives me a useful comparison of signal strength for digital signals (but not absolute value) as it does for analog. Using the speaker feature, the analog video carrier is a buzzing sound; the digital carrier sounds like white noise. It doesn't tell me about multipath problems like the TV or a spectrum analyzer would.


Yes, I'm an antenna nut! But, I still have a lot to learn.


----------



## WeThePeople

I had an occasion to update something in my setup recently and something odd happened that surprised me.


I had a pair of saddle brackets on the side of my house holding a short five foot mast with a large boom style VHF/UHF antenna/rotor combo. I came across a solid twenty foot piece of galvanized pipe.


I never liked the way the saddle brackets wiggled in the wind anyway...


I picked a location and stood it up, grabbed my favorite sledge, and headed up to the roof. I pounded that puppy well into the ground and remounted all the original stuff.


I had mearely lifted the set off the top of the original mast and set it down on the roof. Opposite routine onto the new mast.


The downlead is hefty quad-shield RG-6 straight down into a spark arrester just above the (Physical) ground with a six foot copper ground stake into the ground five feet connected with a very short ten gauge solid core wire stub.


So grounding has never been an issue, but local interference has been.


I used it for a few days with the same results. It occurred to me I now have a ground rod driven at least four or five feet into the ground posing as a mast, so I eliminated the spark arrester at the base moving it to the top of the mast. Remember, this isn't some thin mast pipe. It is a very thick gavanized pipe. Certainly good enough to choke spikes/strikes to ground.


The downlead was just long enough to connect into the house were the short pigtail from the ground rod / arrester used to without modification.


I directly thru-bolted the spark arrester to the pole just under the rotor to eliminate the ten gauge pigtail jumper. I used the original RG-6-QS pigtail from the bottom to bridge the top from the arrester to the preamp.


ALL noise from taxi's, police, vaccuum cleaners, blenders, EVERYTHING is all gone now.


Sorry for the thorough explanation of steps. But I am missing why this worked so good? I hope all I typed above helps pin it down.


The only difference is that the point of ground was, well, AT ground.

I changed it to the top of what is now a grounded pipe.


Oh, also..I did put a bolt through the pipe just above ground to additionally re-use the ten gauge pigtail and six foot copper pipe pounded a full five feet into the ground just to be sure the task was up to my usual level of overkill.


The wire is currently clamped to the house about fourteen inches from the pipe. I mean to point out here, it is close to some of the electrical noises, not shielded by the pipe. So although some capacitance coupling is occurring from wire to pipe here. It shouldn't be enough to warrent the extreme noise rejection results.


I plan to poke two holes top and bottom to fish the downlead through just to keep me busy, and cap the top to keep rain from filling it. But that can only improve shielding...right?


Ideas why this worked so darn good?


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> The house I grew up in had an outlet wired wrong in the garage. It's ground terminal was wired to the 120V hot. When we'd plug a car's engine heater into the outlet, the body of the car was at 120V potential !!! It existed that way for years until I discovered it and corrected it while in high school. No law or physical barrior prevents an idiot from wiring an outlet. So you gotta wonder....who wired yours ?



Fortunately, testing outlet wiring is both easy and safe: Hardware stores and the big-box home centers sell inexpensive, three-prong, plug-in testers that verify the wiring of any outlet. A standard tester costs about $4, while one that can check a GFI outlet costs about $8.


I found the same wiring problem Tobias had, also in the garage, while testing a power strip that has indicator lights for proper grounding and surge protection. The strip indicated "no ground" on the garage outlet, but showed normal function once plugged in at its intended location. Bought the GFI tester since the garage outlet is protected by a GFI located elsewhere, and plugged it in at the garage outlet. Voila! It indicated swapped hot and neutral wires, and the GFI test function showed the wiring error was interfering with GFI protection at all four covered outlets -- all without removing the wall plate. It had apparently been that way since the place was built 25 years ago. Cut the power, switched white and black wires to the correct terminals, put everything back and re-tested all four outlets in less than 10 minutes.


Standard house current is HIGH VOLTAGE that is not to be messed with. Consumers can safely use these testers to detect possible problems, but if you doubt your ability to correct any house wiring problem you find safely, call in an electrician. It will be money well spent. Best of all, most sparkies charge less for house calls than plumbers do!


And, no, I'm not an electrician. Or a plumber, for that matter.


----------



## patinhouston

What is the Best indoor antenna for the Zenith DTT-900? I've been looking at the Terk HDTVA, but that rascal costs $70.00. I'm not buying till i hear more.


----------



## Jon_J

I just got 2 dtv converter boxes. "Digital Stream DX9900"

I posted about my antenna troubles about 4 months ago in the local Peoria IL area, and have made modifications since then.

I have a yagi, radioshack-VU90 in the attic, and have twin lead 300 ohm run to a receptacle on the first floor.

I run a 6 foot twin lead 300 ohm to my DX9900.

I was told to change my wiring to coax and use a different antenna, such as a CM4221 four bay.

I haven't changed the wiring, but decided to build an antenna using the U-tube video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWQhlmJTMzw "clothes hanger antenna"

I hooked it up in the attic, and it made very little difference.

It seems to work OK on the ground floor, but is not an improvement over the yagi in the attic.

I'm having trouble with 2 channels that are only about 10-15 miles away.

I live in a river valley.

One channel doesn't come in at all, (ch. 19/40 ABC) the other one only gets 25% (ch 25/57 NBC) on my meter.


I have another TV and DX9900 in another room, and I have a double bowtie antenna. (one that sits on top of the TV).

I can pull in the "unavailable" (ch. 19/40 ABC) at 25-30%, but is at the threshold of almost unwatchable.

I have included my tv-fool plot "Radar-Digital.png" and pics of the bowtie and homemade antenna.

These channels are locals and come in very well on analog. What can I do to improve reception for the digital cutoff date?

I haven't gotten to the store to buy a "proper" antenna because I don't have a way to transport it home, I'll use a taxi later when I get this figured out.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/13748997
> 
> 
> Fortunately, testing outlet wiring is both easy and safe: Hardware stores and the big-box home centers sell inexpensive, three-prong, plug-in testers that verify the wiring of any outlet. A standard tester costs about $4, while one that can check a GFI outlet costs about $8.



I've got a tester like you're refering to, but I'm not convinced that it would have indictated a problem in my or your badly wired outlets.


Since my outlet had a jumper between the ground terminal and the neutral terminal inside the handy-box, they would have been at the same potential. And like your outlet, the hot and neutral had been swapped enroute from the house to the garage. So from the tester's point of view, it would have seen 120V between the outlet's hot terminal and neutral terminal; 120V between the hot terminal and the ground terminal; and 0V between the neutral terminal and ground terminal. All three of these are normal/good conditions.


For the device to have indicated the problem, it would have needed a way to reference true ground, without relying on the connections made by the three prongs.


I made my determination by sticking one lead of my volt meter in the snow and the other on the handy box.


----------



## gcd0865

Hi All:


I've been following with some interest several online pages and the accompanying forum thread, where a number of antenna hobbyists are attempting to improve an older UHF antenna design (Gray-Hoverman) for current-day UHF reception:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna 
http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/supera...erformance.htm 
http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/design.htm 
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=81982 


Some are reporting superior results to the CM4228 with a double (8-bay) version of this antenna (with 30" x 75" reflector screen), although I've seen comments in this forum doubting such results, apparently based on the performance of a previously-commercialized 8-bay version, the Antennacraft Super G-1483.


I was wondering whether the currently-modified version of this antenna is the same as, or is an improvement on, that Antennacraft Super G-1483. Reason I ask is that a modified version of this antenna (by element size, spacing, etc.) for peak reception at the lower end of the UHF band might be helpful for my needs.


Thanks...


----------



## Neil L

I've been pondering the advantages of modifying the Gray-Hoverman design in such a way that the screen is spaced behind the elements at such a distance as to produce an in-phase reflection at a target frequency. I think that way you could get a gain peak where you need it instead of at the upper end of the spectrum. I'm sure some would benefit more from a high UHF gain peak, but all the stations I'm concerned with receiving are on channels 25, 28, 29, 30 and 39, and all are between 70 and 80 miles away. I'm thinking a design with a gain peak around channel 30 would be ideal for my situation.


----------



## willscary

I have another question that has most likely been beat to death.


I live between two markets. After the digital transition, both markets will have both UHF and VHF channels. I had planned on using a pair of YA-1713 VHF antennas joined by a jointenna. One market will have channels 7 and 9 while the other market will have channel 11. I figured a jointenna for channel 11 would do the trick.


I had planned on a pair of XG91 UHF antennas. One would receive all of the locals in one market while the other would receive channel 50 in the other market. I would use a channel 50 jointenna for this.


I am wondering about the XG91 directivity. I have seen models where this antenna receives virtually nothing from the sides or rear. The markets are 225 degrees apart. One market is about 20 db stronger than the other market, but both require long range antennas (-75db vs -95 db).


If I could get by without needing a jointenna for UHF, I could attempt to get a lower power station that broadcasts from the same tower as channel 50, but directs its beam away from me. This station will have a very weak signal (about -120 db), but I strongly suspect I may be able to pull it in. With the jointenna, this channel (46) will be blocked by the jointenna.


Given the antenna selection and the difference in signal direction (225 degrees), is it likely that I can combine these two antennas without the use of a jointenna, or will they simply interfere with each other?


Thanks,


Bill


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/13757866
> 
> 
> I've been pondering the advantages of modifying the Gray-Hoverman design in such a way that the screen is spaced behind the elements at such a distance as to produce an in-phase reflection at a target frequency. I think that way you could get a gain peak where you need it instead of at the upper end of the spectrum. I'm sure some would benefit more from a high UHF gain peak, but all the stations I'm concerned with receiving are on channels 25, 28, 29, 30 and 39, and all are between 70 and 80 miles away. I'm thinking a design with a gain peak around channel 30 would be ideal for my situation.



I've built a Gray-Hoverman and several different versions of 4 and 8 bay antennas. The one I like the best is a 4 bay with a larger reflector the elements are 10" long and spaced 9 5/8" apart with a reflector spaced 5 inches behind the elements. The reflector screen measures 36" h x 40" w and I bend the outer 8" of the reflector on each side forward about 2 1/2". I also bend the driven elements forward 2".


I modeled the Gray-Hoverman with different reflector spacings but didn't find much that could be improved upon, some spacings gave slightly better raw gain but at the cost of an impedence mis-match which would have lowered net gain.


I have a large 8 bay built based on the 4 bay design above but with a 40 x 56" reflector. I hope to try it this weekend weather permitting.


----------



## gcd0865

Bill:


I have a 91XG in my attic that I'm currently testing on analog signals while I await my soon-to-arrive HDTV. It's pointed roughly northwest to receive UHF channel 25 at 55 miles, which it pulls in at about an 8 out of 10 (in analog). A UHF channel 24 in the south-southwest direction (at 65 miles) comes in around a 1-2 out of 10 (again in analog), with significant multipath present in that weak signal. Channel 24 would be around a 6 out of 10 if the 91XG were pointed toward it.


Of course, there may be some signal bouncing in the attic, but I get very little multipath distortion in signals when this antenna is pointed toward the station. People are saying that digital signals (especially with the newest generation of tuner chipset) are good at resisting multipath, such that combining two 91XG's may be possible if the stations are far enough away. For my local stations, the 91XG pulls off-axis stations in strongly, albeit with lots of multipath.


Another option you might consider for your channel 46 and 50 situation (instead of a jointenna) is to use a low-pass filter like this one - http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...PROD=CPLPF-600 . If you put this in the line for your one 91XG, it would allow everything above UHF channel 40 to come in through the other 91XG, if I understand these correctly. $34.99 might be reasonable if that did the trick for you. My stations are too scattered by channel number to do this, unfortunately.


Hope this is helpful...


----------



## gcd0865

Bill:


One more thing I forgot to add - if at least one of the channels you want to receive from your first 91XG is above channel 40, you could try inserting a tunable trap from Winegard that can knock out two channels simultaneously (channels 46 and 50) from that first 91XG, so that you can then combine the other 91XG with a simple backwards splitter. That trap is shown here:

http://www.summitsource.com/winegard...00-p-5344.html 

http://www.vancebaldwin.com/products/?UT-2700 (cheaper here...)


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *willscary* /forum/post/13758011
> 
> 
> 
> Given the antenna selection and the difference in signal direction (225 degrees), is it likely that I can combine these two antennas without the use of a jointenna, or will they simply interfere with each other?




In addition to various filters you might be evaluating, keep in mind that sometimes it's better to aim an antenna in the direction that nulls out the undesirable signals, rather than aiming it to strengthen the desired signals. For example, if desired signals were at precisely 0°, you might find it better to point the antenna at 352°. This might cost you one or two dB in signal strength of the desired channels, but if it drops the undesired channels down by 10 dB, it could be worth it.


----------



## Mister B

Several months ago I ordered the Jointenna since I have a digital channel 23 available from New Mexico about 60 miles away plus all of the digital channels are currently on UHF in El Paso about 30 miles away. I had the jointenna set to channel 23.

Upon arrival I did some tests by first hooking up the "El Paso" antenna to the all channel input of the Jointenna. It did successfully block channel 23 and somewhat attenuate channels 20 through 25 as would be expected. However, when I connected the "New Mexico" antenna to the channel 23 input of the Jointenna it continued to receive channels 14 through 30 from El Paso with no attenuation at all. Of course, it also receives 14-30 from the "El Paso" antenna when both are connected and causes severe multipath as can be seen on the analog stations, some of which I am still interested in.

My conclusion was that the Jointenna does not insert just one channel but a large block of channels which may actually be to an advantage in some situations but not for here. I went back to a RF switch.


----------



## jhe

What happened to Delhi (Jerrold) log antennas? They measured better than any other types I've ever tried for all channel antennas and by a good margin. I see them listed now as owned by Wade, but don't find dealers selling them.


----------



## kycubsfan

I have acquired what might be the last of the new Wade/Delhi/Jerrold VIP-307sr models still in circulation. Ah, the beast is mine ...


FYI, the (very helpful) people at Wade say they will restart production for bulk orders, 30+.


----------



## holl_ands

Give 'em a call:
http://www.wade-antenna.com/TACO/Contact.htm


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mister B* /forum/post/13761117
> 
> 
> Several months ago I ordered the Jointenna since I have a digital channel 23 available from New Mexico about 60 miles away plus all of the digital channels are currently on UHF in El Paso about 30 miles away. I had the jointenna set to channel 23.
> 
> Upon arrival I did some tests by first hooking up the "El Paso" antenna to the all channel input of the Jointenna. It did successfully block channel 23 and somewhat attenuate channels 20 through 25 as would be expected. However, when I connected the "New Mexico" antenna to the channel 23 input of the Jointenna it continued to receive channels 14 through 30 from El Paso with no attenuation at all. Of course, it also receives 14-30 from the "El Paso" antenna when both are connected and causes severe multipath as can be seen on the analog stations, some of which I am still interested in.
> 
> My conclusion was that the Jointenna does not insert just one channel but a large block of channels which may actually be to an advantage in some situations but not for here. I went back to a RF switch.




It might be worth your while to contact Channelmaster and send it in to be recalibrated. I had one last year that originally arrived mistuned. I returned it to them, they retuned it, and it came back performing much better.


----------



## spokybob




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jon_J* /forum/post/13756937
> 
> 
> I just got 2 dtv converter boxes. "Digital Stream DX9900"
> 
> I posted about my antenna troubles about 4 months ago in the local Peoria IL area, and have made modifications since then.
> 
> I have a yagi, radioshack-VU90 in the attic, and have twin lead 300 ohm run to a receptacle on the first floor.
> 
> I run a 6 foot twin lead 300 ohm to my DX9900.
> 
> I was told to change my wiring to coax and use a different antenna, such as a CM4221 four bay.
> 
> I haven't changed the wiring, but decided to build an antenna using the U-tube video here:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWQhlmJTMzw "clothes hanger antenna"
> 
> I hooked it up in the attic, and it made very little difference.
> 
> It seems to work OK on the ground floor, but is not an improvement over the yagi in the attic.
> 
> I'm having trouble with 2 channels that are only about 10-15 miles away.
> 
> I live in a river valley.
> 
> One channel doesn't come in at all, (ch. 19/40 ABC) the other one only gets 25% (ch 25/57 NBC) on my meter.
> 
> 
> I have another TV and DX9900 in another room, and I have a double bowtie antenna. (one that sits on top of the TV).
> 
> I can pull in the "unavailable" (ch. 19/40 ABC) at 25-30%, but is at the threshold of almost unwatchable.
> 
> I have included my tv-fool plot "Radar-Digital.png" and pics of the bowtie and homemade antenna.
> 
> These channels are locals and come in very well on analog. What can I do to improve reception for the digital cutoff date?
> 
> I haven't gotten to the store to buy a "proper" antenna because I don't have a way to transport it home, I'll use a taxi later when I get this figured out.



Jon: I am surprised that the YouTube does not work for you even down in Pekin. I am going to install a Youtube antenna over in Morton in May. She is having trouble with the amplified indoor antenna they sold her at Circuit City. I am surpised that you are receiving FOX (43.1) ok. Let us know when you come up with something good.


----------



## AntAltMike

Regarding the UHF Jointenna, it is what it is and isn't what it isn't. It is basically a cheap combination bandpass filter, band reject filter, and low loss combiner. It typically passes the desired channel with negligible loss, passes the adjacent channels with an edge-to-edge rolloff of a few dB, and slopes through the next channel or two until a rejection depth of about 20dB is attained.


The band reject curve is close to an inverted version of the bandpass curve, with the caveat that its shape is rather irregular through its tapers.


There is one internal band-pass filter center frequency adjustment and one internal band-reject center frequency adjustment, and there is some other primitive, folded metal strip inductor that can probably be "touched up" by someone who knows what its purpose is, but when I connected a few UHF Jointennas to a white noise generator and spectrum analyzer, I couldn't figure out what effect flexing that inductor might have.


Without a signal measuring device, like a spectrum analyzer or an FSM, it is not possible for an experimenter to even estimate its attenuation at different frequencies. If you have a strong signal in the presence of a weak one, even if a Jointenna attenuates the strong signal by 20dB, it might produce the same "% signal strength" value on your tuner's signal strength display.


----------



## onan38

I am currently installing a Winegard HD-7084P and a channelmaster 7777 preamp,The antenna came with 50ft of Rg59 cable,Would this be ok to use on less than a 50ft run on 1 tv or would i need to use Rg6 cable?


----------



## jhe

Thanks for the info on the Delhi's. So looks like it is just our local starkelectronic that is dropping them.


----------



## PCTools

That antenna is pretty good (VIP- 307), as I have mine at 52' in the air. However, it is pure overkill, as I only need a high bander 7- 13 with the digital domain. So, I will be taking mine down. (Less winload)


What price did they quote you?


----------



## cpcat

Use a short piece of rg6 from antenna to preamp. Using rg59 from the preamp to tv is probably ok. However, you only do it once (in most instances anyway). I'd probably still run rg6 quad-shield at least indoors to the first splice if you can spring it.


----------



## kycubsfan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13768661
> 
> 
> That antenna is pretty good (VIP- 307), as I have mine at 52' in the air. However, it is pure overkill, as I only need a high bander 7- 13 with the digital domain. So, I will be taking mine down. (Less winload)
> 
> 
> What price did they quote you?



I want to stabilize my reception of a Channel 4 from 90 miles out, as well as take a shot at a 5 and a 10. I also have a 7 and a 12, so it's going to get a workout here.


The people at Wade referred me to Lafayette Electronics. He had the one vip-307 left, and sold it to me for $255 shipped. He says he will continue to stock the vip-306 for the forseeable future.


----------



## Jon_J




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *spokybob* /forum/post/13766814
> 
> 
> Jon: I am surprised that the YouTube does not work for you even down in Pekin. I am going to install a Youtube antenna over in Morton in May. She is having trouble with the amplified indoor antenna they sold her at Circuit City. I am surpised that you are receiving FOX (43.1) ok. Let us know when you come up with something good.



I cannot get FOX (43.1). It shows only about 20-25% on the meter.

I'm not worried about FOX, my main concern is recieving ABC. I watch "Lost"

I finally got the U-tube antenna working with marginal picture quality for ch. 19 WHOI, (25-30%) and slightly better with ch. 25 WEEK, (25-35%).

I just placed the antenna at an upward angle, facing the sky, about 60 degrees, pointing toward the creve cour tower. It seems like my antenna works better at a sky facing angle, than at true vertical.

I do have a very large tree behind my house that is about 30-35 feet tall. It is off to the west of my north-east facing antenna.

ch 46 PBS is always at 90% or better, and ch 31 WMBD is usually at 90%. I also get ch. 39 WAOE at 70-75%


----------



## fbov

Jon,

I have a DTX9900 running off a 4-bay (with reflector) home-built antenna in the attic. My signal field is weaker than yours (-70 to -78dBm) and my DTX is getting 80-90 on these stations. (I only wish it were stable at 80-90 ...)


One big difference is downlead; mine is short and RG-6 coax. Yours is long and twin-lead, and I think it may be acting like a second antenna, causing you multipath issues. Let me suggest two tests:

- try disconnecting the antenna from the downlead and running on twin-lead only.

- connect the 4-bay with a balun and a short piece of coax next to the TV.


Anything you get without the antenna attached to the twin-lead is multipath and can be eliminated by using coax. It's possible you don't need an antenna; twist the leads together when you disconnect it so you don't get an open circuit.


Using a short, shielded lead off the 4-bay will also eliminate any downlead pick-up. You report that the 4-bay worked OK on the ground floor; does that mean you pick-up the stations you don't get above? Were you using twin-lead downstairs?


By the way, a 4-bay gets its gain by narrowing its vertical spread. Compare the dipole pattern near the top with the 6-bay array below it to get the idea. (Note both are bi-directional due to the absence of a reflector.)
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/types.html 


With a 4-bay aimed up at 60*, you're using one of the low-gain lobes, the lumps at top and bottom, not the main lobe. Usually, in strong fields, if an antenna only works aimed away from ALL terrestrial sources, it's either a multipath issue or your a radio astronomer.


Have fun,

Frank


----------



## Jon_J




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13772852
> 
> 
> Jon,
> 
> I have a DTX9900 running off a 4-bay (with reflector) home-built antenna in the attic. My signal field is weaker than yours (-70 to -78dBm) and my DTX is getting 80-90 on these stations. (I only wish it were stable at 80-90 ...)
> 
> 
> One big difference is downlead; mine is short and RG-6 coax. Yours is long and twin-lead, and I think it may be acting like a second antenna, causing you multipath issues. Let me suggest two tests:
> 
> - try disconnecting the antenna from the downlead and running on twin-lead only.
> 
> - connect the 4-bay with a balun and a short piece of coax next to the TV.
> 
> 
> Anything you get without the antenna attached to the twin-lead is multipath and can be eliminated by using coax. It's possible you don't need an antenna; twist the leads together when you disconnect it so you don't get an open circuit.
> 
> 
> Using a short, shielded lead off the 4-bay will also eliminate any downlead pick-up. You report that the 4-bay worked OK on the ground floor; does that mean you pick-up the stations you don't get above? Were you using twin-lead downstairs?
> 
> 
> By the way, a 4-bay gets its gain by narrowing its vertical spread. Compare the dipole pattern near the top with the 6-bay array below it to get the idea. (Note both are bi-directional due to the absence of a reflector.)
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/types.html
> 
> 
> With a 4-bay aimed up at 60*, you're using one of the low-gain lobes, the lumps at top and bottom, not the main lobe. Usually, in strong fields, if an antenna only works aimed away from ALL terrestrial sources, it's either a multipath issue or your a radio astronomer.
> 
> 
> Have fun,
> 
> Frank



Thank you for your thorough reply.









I definitely have a multipath problem. I disconnected my twin lead and twisted the ends together.

I still receive all previously mentioned stations with about 5-10% decrease in signal strength according to the DX9900 meter.

(ch. 19 WHOI) is gone now, signal meter is at 5-7%

I measured the length of the twin lead run, it is 35 feet from the baseboard receptacle in my living room to the top of the attic. I just realized there is some of the twin lead coiled up in the unfinished part of my attic.

I just bought some new RG6 cable, connectors and crimping and stripping tools. I'm going to wait till it cools down tomorrow and run the RG6 to the receptacle, and use RG6 to my DX9900. I'll try to keep the length as short as possible.

Once I've done this, I'll go from there.

I previously connected the youtube antenna to a blaun and coax next to my TV.

This was my first test when I first put it together, 2 days ago. Recpetion was similar to my attic mounted yagi.

Would placing a screen on the back of my youtube antenna help? Does it need to be exactly four inches behind the 8 elements/whiskers?


----------



## PCTools

That is a "fair" price. Enjoy your new antenna.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kycubsfan* /forum/post/13769206
> 
> 
> I want to stabilize my reception of a Channel 4 from 90 miles out, as well as take a shot at a 5 and a 10. I also have a 7 and a 12, so it's going to get a workout here.
> 
> 
> The people at Wade referred me to Lafayette Electronics. He had the one vip-307 left, and sold it to me for $255 shipped. He says he will continue to stock the vip-306 for the forseeable future.


----------



## mapostol

I have Directv and just ordered an AM21 OTA reciever. I have RG6 prewired in the attic so I wanted to put the antenna somewhere in the attic. I am in 48335 area code and need a recommendation. Will the attic location be sufficient or do I need to go outside with it?


Any help is appreciated.


Thanks

MIKE


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jon_J* /forum/post/13774003
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> I just bought some new RG6 cable, connectors and crimping and stripping tools. I'm going to wait till it cools down tomorrow and run the RG6 to the receptacle, and use RG6 to my DX9900. I'll try to keep the length as short as possible.
> 
> ...
> 
> Would placing a screen on the back of my youtube antenna help? Does it need to be exactly four inches behind the 8 elements/whiskers?



You have a good antenna in a fairly strong signal field and coax losses are only -6dB/100 ft. at the high end of the UHF band so a few feet won't matter. Leave yourself plenty of slack, avoid sharp bends in favor of looping turns, it's just best practices.


A reflector increases gain at the expense of bi-directionality. You don't need back-side gain if I recall your signal field correctly, and for an 8" bowtie size, a 4" spacing is just right. Let us know how you do.

frank


----------



## fbov

Mike,

Looking at TVFool.com, you have a very rich signal field; almost any antenna will give you 1-2 _dozen_ stations without a rotor, and with one you can make it 3 dozen. Neat thing about Detroit; lots of Canadian stations, most south of your local towers. Most are UHF now, but Fox, WJBK, is going back to VHF7, albeit with a very good signal.


Any of the short-distance UHF/VHF combos will work, as may a mid-range UHF array, given your single VHF station is in rabbit-ear territory.


Frank


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mapostol* /forum/post/13777926
> 
> 
> Will the attic location be sufficient or do I need to go outside with it?



You have a bunch of station available at your location from a number of different directions. Looks like an attic install would get some of them. Outside with a rotor might get all of them. Which stations do you want to receive?


Oooops! fbov posted a good reply while I was typing.


----------



## mapostol

Frank...

Thanks for the reply.

Would you have a brand/model recommendation?

I know there are Audiovox's, RCA, Terks, etc out there.

I just want to get one at a decent price that functions well.

Thanks

MIKE

p.s. the main stations I want to get are the ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, and Canadian CBC channels.


----------



## Jon_J

fbov,

WOW!! Thank you, thank you.









Replacing the twin lead with rg6 coax resulted in a dramatic improvement in reception. I replaced it all, even the short pigtail near the TV. My results are:

(Ch. 19 WHOI) went from a paltry 6% to 80%-85% on the DX9900's meter. (This is good enough to record my fav show now!)









(Ch. 25 WEEK) is around 57%-85%

My other channels showed slight improvement, not much, but these channels were already in the high 80's to 90's anyway. (Ch31 WMBD) and (Ch 39 My59) and of coarse, (Ch. 46 PBS)

I decided to try (43 FOX Bloomington). It gets a steady 45%. I really don't care much for this channel anyway.

I still have the option to re-position my antenna.

I am still using the youtube antenna without a screen.

It is located in the peak of my attic, which is a pyramid shape.

I just have one question.

My other large TV is on the opposite end of the house. If I just stack a second balun on top of the existing balun (on my antenna), will that setup act as a splitter? I would like to run a second coax to that room from the peak of the attic.


BTW, I did leave some slack at both ends, and there are no sharp bends.

Again, thank you very much.









Jon


----------



## wdj03

I have almost the exact same question as Mike.


I have the DirecTV HR-20 and I'm in zip code 78413. I did an exact address search on TV fool. I think I know what the results mean, but I don't know if the numbers are "good" or "bad"


ABC - 151kW - 11.9 miles - 266 true

NBC - 30kW - 12.9 miles - 293 true

CBS - 6.3kW - 14 miles - 281 true

PBS - 90kW - 9.7 miles - 264 true


For now, top priority is NBC for the NHL Western Conference Finals. (Go Stars!)


I'm hoping that something inexpensive ($30-$50) will work for now and I'd really like to put it in the attic rather than on my house.


Recommendations please?


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wdj03* /forum/post/13798059
> 
> 
> I'm hoping that something inexpensive ($30-$50) will work for now and I'd really like to put it in the attic rather than on my house.
> 
> 
> Recommendations please?



Try a $10 rabbit ear/loop combo. With signals above -65dBm for 78413, this may be all you need. If not, these signals should be easy to receive from the attic. This assumes that the antennas aren't looking through a metal or stucco wall, however.


Are your exact results also above -65dBm?


----------



## wdj03




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/13799953
> 
> 
> Try a $10 rabbit ear/loop combo. With signals above -65dBm for 78413, this may be all you need. If not, these signals should be easy to receive from the attic. This assumes that the antennas aren't looking through a metal or stucco wall, however.



Any particular brand/model of rabbit ear/loop to look for? I'm headed to Home Depot on the way home from work. Would be nice to grab one there considering their return policy.


No metal or stucco. I have a 1 story wood/brick single family home.

Other questions:

According to antennaweb, my NBC, ABC and CBS affiliates are VHF on frequency assignments 13, 10, and 8 respectively. This means that I need a VHF antenna, correct?


Can I put the rabbit ear/loop in the attic? I'd like it to be out of sight and I'm going to be running some wire up there anyway.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/13799953
> 
> 
> Are your exact results also above -65dBm?



Are you referring to the Rx(dBm) column? Here's the table of my exact address with that column added..

ABC - 151kW | -41.5 dBm | 11.9 miles | 266 true

NBC - 30kW | -52.3 dBm - 12.9 miles | 293 true

CBS - 6.3kW | -63.4 dBm - 14 miles | 281 true

PBS - 90kW | -49.0 dBm - 9.7 miles | 264 true


Look ok?


(Thanks for the help!)


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jon_J* /forum/post/13779298
> 
> 
> fbov,
> 
> WOW!! Thank you, thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Replacing the twin lead with rg6 coax resulted in a dramatic improvement in reception.
> 
> ...
> 
> If I just stack a second balun on top of the existing balun (on my antenna), will that setup act as a splitter? I would like to run a second coax to that room from the peak of the attic.
> 
> ...



Jon,

Love to hear about happy endings, especially when I guessed right! Multipath is a new and nefarious enemy for most of us.


A splitter costs you >4 dB and it's predictable. A second balun on the antenna changes feedline impedence and that's hard to predict. I'd split; in my testing, I don't see the splitter at all - same signal readings with or without.


Frank


----------



## fbov

wjd03,

That little Rx number is the most important thing TVFool brings to the discussion - an actual estimate of signal available at your site. It's what says "rabbit ears" instead of "pre-amp, rotor and big antenna on the roof." The actual rabbit ears are a VHF antenna while the "loop" in the middle is the UHF antenna. Returnability is a wonderful thing!


The only attic issue is that you want to run RG-6 coax, but a lot of rabbit ears have twin-lead output. Getting one with an F-connector would be a good thing, or use a balun to connect the twin-lead to the coax. Amplification is not likely to help, but may if you've got a long run.


Good luck,

Frank


----------



## wdj03




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13800482
> 
> 
> wjd03,
> 
> That little Rx number is the most important thing TVFool brings to the discussion - an actual estimate of signal available at your site. It's what says "rabbit ears" instead of "pre-amp, rotor and big antenna on the roof." The actual rabbit ears are a VHF antenna while the "loop" in the middle is the UHF antenna. Returnability is a wonderful thing!
> 
> 
> The only attic issue is that you want to run RG-6 coax, but a lot of rabbit ears have twin-lead output. Getting one with an F-connector would be a good thing, or use a balun to connect the twin-lead to the coax. Amplification is not likely to help, but may if you've got a long run.
> 
> 
> Good luck,
> 
> Frank



Thanks so much. I've been a cableco subscriber for such a long time that I never really paid attention to this stuff. I love all the HD's on DirecTV but they don't have my locals in HD yet, so I need to get this done..


I'll see what they have at HD this afternoon and I'll definitely try to get one with a F connector or at least some sort of adapter.


My run is short. The highest point in my attic is pretty much directly above my TV. Maybe a 25' run.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wdj03* /forum/post/13800342
> 
> 
> Any particular brand/model of rabbit ear/loop to look for? I'm headed to Home Depot on the way home from work. Would be nice to grab one there considering their return policy.



Just don't get one that has a built-in amp. The $10 one at Target (RCA ANT 115) has worked well enough for me, though I haven't been able to find it on their website. Here is a link from another site:

http://www.buy.com/prod/rca-ant115-i.../90111991.html 


I use it as a test antenna.


----------



## jcs444

I am helping a freind with a tv/antenna setup using a walmart durabrand tv with built in dgital tuner (made by funai) and a homemade coathanger db2 type antenna without a screen. I want to put the antenna in the attic of a one story ranch type house but am wondering about signal loss through the roof material/shingles. I will use a 25 foot coax cable. The area code is 45230.


----------



## johnied




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jcs444* /forum/post/13801780
> 
> 
> I am helping a freind with a tv/antenna setup using a walmart durabrand tv with built in dgital tuner (made by funai) and a homemade coathanger db2 type antenna without a screen. I want to put the antenna in the attic of a one story ranch type house but am wondering about signal loss through the roof material/shingles. I will use a 25 foot coax cable. The area code is 45230.



Shingles or wood wont cause any significant loss, go for it.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnied* /forum/post/13801916
> 
> 
> Shingles or wood wont cause any significant loss, go for it.



Say what ?


----------



## ThoraX695




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jcs444* /forum/post/13801780
> 
> 
> I am helping a freind with a tv/antenna setup using a walmart durabrand tv with built in dgital tuner (made by funai) and a homemade coathanger db2 type antenna without a screen. I want to put the antenna in the attic of a one story ranch type house but am wondering about signal loss through the roof material/shingles. I will use a 25 foot coax cable. The area code is 45230.



45230... You're in Cincinnati? You may be OK with putting that in the attic. You may also have problems getting WCPO (digital channel 10) and WKRC when they switch to broadcasting their digital signal on channel 12 after analog shutoff. If you have problems, you can stop by the Cincinnati HDTV Thread for more help.


----------



## fbov

Quote:

Originally Posted by *jcs444* 
I am helping a freind with a tv/antenna setup using a walmart durabrand tv with built in dgital tuner (made by funai) and a homemade coathanger db2 type antenna without a screen. I want to put the antenna in the attic of a one story ranch type house but am wondering about signal loss through the roof material/shingles. I will use a 25 foot coax cable. The area code is 45230.
Contrary to some opinions, conventional roofing will cost you 10-15dB in signal, and the 4-bay (CM4221) tested in the attached lost more like 25dB. Coax loss is more like 6dB/100ft, and that only at upper UHF frequencies that TV abandons, post transition.


Thankfully, it looks like you have a strong signal field, but local terrain variations can cost you another 25dB - be sure to check your friend's exact address. That said, I use a 4-bay home-built with reflector in my attic and get -78dBm stations at ~90% on a Sony 34XBR970 TV and more like 80 on a DTX9900 CECB. A 2-bay (DB-2) will not do nearly as well as a 4-bay, but it's a start.


Looking at the signal field, now and post transition, you do have VHF stations to consider. WCPO-DT will be a good test as it's at it's permanent frequency (VHF 10) and near long-term power. If this antenna gives a good signal for 9.1 today, your friend should get WKRC just fine when it moves back to VHF 12. If not, try an oversized reflector. I see no need for back-side reception in this signal field, and an opportunity to improve front-side if needed. Additional thought are to expand to a full 4-bay and to increase the scale of the antenna to more-closely match the desired channels.


That said, thoraX695's suggestion to check the local HDTV thread will only help.


Frank

 

2004-12-11 testing attic antenna performance v03.pdf 129.5986328125k . file


----------



## antennaguys




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vinnyv07* /forum/post/3694502
> 
> 
> I probably didnt need th DB8...maybe I could have gone with the DB4 but Im growing tired of trying Antennas that arent good enough. I wanted the strongest UHF gain that isnt directional. The DB8 attracted me because it covers an area of 90 degrees from where the Ant is pointed. Maybe I could pick up everything that is coming from NYC without having to adjust it for the best sig. Either way its a clear upgrade from the Stealth.



vinnyv07:


I looked up Staten Island on antennapoint.com. You have over 45 broadcast towers that should be available to your DB-8, which was a good choice with its power and beam width. 22 stations are northeast of you, 12 of which are within 10 miles. Another 16 are within the range of the DB-8 to the southwest. To get them all, you will need a second DB-8, one pointed NE (36°), the other SW (240°), connected to an infra red A/B switch (for convenience), unless you want to get up and switch the A/B switch each time you need the second antenna for exercise.


Getting them all is a good investment in entertainment. Your DB-8 will receive all your local stations, including multi-cast programming adding several additional local off-air programs. With 2 DB-8s, you will be able to receive out-of-town channels from both directions, carrying blacked out sports programs or network broadcasts not available to you locally.


----------



## PCTools

I added 2 additional sections onto my existing 91XG to increase the directivity. These are the last sections that you need to add, or you will mess up the director spacing.


Here are some photos.


More to follow... (Stay tuned)

 

91XG on Steriods.pdf 221.6611328125k . file


----------



## mlmahon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13812505
> 
> 
> I added 2 additional sections onto my existing 91XG to increase the directivity. These are the last sections that you need to add, or you will mess up the director spacing.
> 
> 
> Here are some photos.
> 
> 
> More to follow... (Stay tuned)



Cool!! Any comparison data to a plain, vanilla 91XG??


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13812505
> 
> 
> I added 2 additional sections onto my existing 91XG to increase the directivity. These are the last sections that you need to add, or you will mess up the director spacing.



Perhaps it's a photographic illusion, but there appears to be some droop/sag occuring. Does that affect the performance much?


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13812505
> 
> 
> I added 2 additional sections onto my existing 91XG to increase the directivity.



The addition of those extra director elements probably adds very little to the gain, but it sure increases the mechanical problems of mounting and securing that very long boom.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mlmahon* /forum/post/13813473
> 
> 
> Cool!! Any comparison data to a plain, vanilla 91XG??



My guess would be less than 1dB added gain. Where maximum gain is required, it is customary to use a pair of identical antenna suitably connected, rather than one long array, thus reducing the mechanical problems, and yielding more gain.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/13816899
> 
> 
> The addition of those extra director elements probably adds very little to the gain, but it sure increases the mechanical problems of mounting and securing that very long boom.
> 
> My guess would be less than 1dB added gain. Where maximum gain is required, it is customary to use a pair of identical antenna suitably connected, rather than one long array, thus reducing the mechanical problems, and yielding more gain.



The rule of thumb for Yagis is that to get 3 dB more gain, you have to double the boom length.


That's essentially what PCTools has done. However, the big gap between directors 22 and 23 (which I assume is the junction of the regular antenna and the extension) does not look optimum.


Ron


----------



## PCTools

What are some of the advantages and disadvantages of a horizontal vs a vertical stack?


I know it is so much easier to do the vertical stack. Trying to get hardware in a small town is difficult. I have to drive an hour to get to a Home Depot.


----------



## Neil L

Vertical stacking narrows the gain pattern in the vertical plane, leaving the horizontal gain pattern basically unchanged. Horizontal stacking does the opposite, and seems to be more effective. The gain should be the same either way, but horizontal stacking seems to be more effective against multi-path interference, which improve reception to a greater degree than extra gain in most cases.


The professional installations in my area (I'm talking cable TV systems here), use quad stacked LPAs. In fact, the cable system in my town used eight low VHF LPAs in a double quad stack, and a single quad stack for high-VHF and another for UHF.


----------



## fbov

I'll build on Neil L's comments a bit by referencing Ken Nist's 16-/32-bay work on HDTVprimer.com.


He found that a vertical stack of two 4228's worked better than a 2x2 array of four 4228's. His reasoning was based on diffracted signal field characteristics - the entire vertical stack fit within a positive interference node while the wider 32-bay spanned positive and negative nodes. I believe he ended up with a switch-selectable pair of 16-bay vertical stacks, each in a different transmitter location's diffraction sweet spot.


A vertical stack is also preferred if you want the wide directional gain, and can deal with increased sensitivity to tilt. In general, however, it's easier to aim a roughly circular aperture than a thin slit. Think in terms of a spotlight vs. car fog lights.


With Yagi's, there is an advantage to stacking in that you have no crossbars to deal with. Proper side-by-side Yagi mounts have a separate mount for reach antenna that keeps the cross member out of the antenna aperture, since all horizontal conductors within that aperture participate in signal reception. You want this:
http://www.atechfabrication.com/prod...tenna_boom.htm 

not this:
http://www.atechfabrication.com/prod...cking_boom.htm


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13823037
> 
> 
> With Yagi's, there is an advantage to stacking in that you have no crossbars to deal with. Proper side-by-side Yagi mounts have a separate mount for reach antenna that keeps the cross member out of the antenna aperture, since all horizontal conductors within that aperture participate in signal reception. You want this:
> http://www.atechfabrication.com/prod...tenna_boom.htm
> 
> not this:
> http://www.atechfabrication.com/prod...cking_boom.htm



Or, just use fiberglass for any horizontal components. Either will work.


Horizontal is the way to go in my experience.

You'll also get better results with stripline combiners vs. ferrite splitters, probably as a result of superior phasing characteristics of the stripline combiner.


Antennas need to be identical (including baluns) and coax feeds should be of equal length to the combiner.


----------



## PCTools

Thanks for the feedback, however, this site is dufunked. They never return my calls! So buyer beware. Any other places?


You want this:
http://www.atechfabrication.com/prod...tenna_boom.htm 

not this:
http://www.atechfabrication.com/prod...cking_boom.htm [/quote]


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13824044
> 
> 
> Thanks for the feedback, however, this site is dufunked. They never return my calls! So buyer beware. Any other places?



You'll need to make it yourself most likely. In case you didn't see it, here's my earlier reply to you on the subject (edited to include link for CM attic mounts):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post13625302


----------



## Jon_J

Fbov,

I may have jumped the gun when I first posted my meter readings and vast improvements in reception, in my last post.

The improvements in reception are available only if I have my youtube sitting on top of my yagi.

I set it up this way when I first built it. The first attached photo shows this.


Later that day and the next day, I tried just using the youtube antenna mounted to the pole by itself. (I took down the yagi) I had lost 10-20% reception on four stations.

I tried placing it in different locations and higher up. I still never got the great reception that I got on the first day, when I just propped it on top of my then disconnected yagi. Also, spreading the front elements on the disconnected yagi effected my reception, (since the top yagi element is in direct line with the bottom four elements on the youtube antenna).


So this is where I'm going to leave it, for now.

I think I still have a multipath problem, and decided to build a second youtube antenna, with a screen.

Since all the stations I view are within a semi-narrow path, I think a screen would help.

There are 2 shots of my new youtube antenna.

I built it to exact dimensions as the author of the video. 7 inch whiskers, spaced on the wood at 5 3/4 inches apart.

I didn't have a 2x4, so I designed a mount which places the screen, 3 1/2 inches from the elements.

I noticed the youtube author used light weight clothes hangers. I only have the "pants" type hangers and they are somewhat thicker.

When erecting the antenna with the hanger wires under the screws, the whiskers angle inward as seen in the side view pic.

Should I bend them back so they are on a flat plane?

I haven't tried this new antenna yet, but will as soon as I get some time to hook it up.


----------



## 2bdefacto

I need advice on selecting an antenna for my new Samsung TV, The factors are: The stations are 40 to 50 miles from my house, per antennaweb.org. I have a one story house with very little obstruction, a few large trees but no buildings. I am not on a hill but in an elevated area. I prefer an outdoor antenna because everything I've read states that outdoor antennas are far superior. The broad cast stations I want to pick up are located N.E, East and S.E. from my house, What strengths do I need? Will rooftop be enough or do I install on pole? I currently have a satellite dish, the dish 500 I understand I can actually hook into the satellites coax. Is that true? What special tools or splitter would I need? How about an additional ground?If I decide to do a pole mount can anyone point me to a good source on how to install an antenna on a 20' pole. Yeeks, I've got so many questions on this. Unfortunately my budget is limited and after calling a few installers I got prices on the basics for 400 up to 800 dollars,.... out of my range, so I would attempt to do it myself or at the very least purchase all my materials and just pay for installation. Any feedback is appreciated


----------



## PCTools

Greg,


Looks like I will be making up the stuff this weekend. Just finished the concrete pour on the tower. 3/4 yard for the Rohn 20 - 50' tower. Put the house bracket at 16'.


Thanks for the pictures.










I stacked two of the 91XG's (Vertical) and working Channel 32 out of Chicago. 242 miles!











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/13824254
> 
> 
> You'll need to make it yourself most likely. In case you didn't see it, here's my earlier reply to you on the subject (edited to include link for CM attic mounts):
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post13625302


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13839562
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like I will be making up the stuff this weekend. Just finished the concrete pour on the tower. 3/4 yard for the Rohn 20 - 50' tower. Put the house bracket at 16'.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the pictures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I stacked two of the 91XG's (Vertical) and working Channel 32 out of Chicago. 242 miles!



I'd like to see a pic of the tower when you get a chance.


----------



## PCTools

VERTICAL STACKING


Stacking two identical antennas on a common vertical mast significantly narrows the vertical beam-width angle. That is, vertically stacked antennas more effectively reject those interfering signals arriving from above or below their horizontal plane than does a single antenna. Its as though they were looking through a horizontal venetian blind. Because theres nothing mounted to the side of either antenna, their side-to-side vision is virtually uneffected. In the process, gain increases about 2.5 dB over that of a single antenna.


Vertical stacking improves both gain and vertical directivity. This helps reduce airplane flutter and attendant picture roll, and certain types of ground noise and ground reflections.


The basic principle of stacked antennas involves the difference in the time of arrival, and therefore the phase, of signals intercepted by the antenna combination. If a pair of identical Yagi antennas are mounted one above the other, a wavelength apart, on a common vertical mast and are oriented identically (pointed) toward the signal source, any TV signals traveling horizontally and arriving from any direction will be intercepted simultaneously by both antennas.


Because the antennas are identical, the generated signal voltages arriving at the output terminals shared by the antennas will be in phase, causing them to add directly. Theoretically, there should be a 3 dB increase (double) in signal power over that of a single antenna, but, because of losses in the coupler and cable, the actual gain increase will be somewhat less than 3 dB.


An important point to remember is that, regardless of the azimuth angle between the antenna orientation and the signal source, the arriving signal will strike any given identical points on the two antennas simultaneously. However, if the signal is arriving from a source above or below the horizontal plane of the antenna, the previous statement is no longer true. For example, if the wavefront is from a source below the plane of the antenna, the signal will arrive first at the lower antenna and the signal voltage from the top antenna will lag the signal from the lower antenna. The signal voltages at the antenna output terminals will no longer be in phase, and partial cancellation will take place. The opposite is true if the signal arrives.


The angle of arrival and the resultant difference in arrival time causes a phase difference which reduces the magnitude of the combined voltages. You should begin to see now why two vertically stacked, identical antennas have a more restricted "vision" to signals arriving from a point above or below the horizontal plane than does a single antenna.


HORIZONTAL STACKING


Stacking two identical antennas side by side in a horizontal plane significantly narrows the horizontal beam-width angle. That is, the antenna combination, like a horse wearing blinders, "sees" fewer interfering signals arriving from the sides while its vision up and down (in a vertical plane) is virtually unaffected. In the process, gain increases approximately 1.2 dB over that of a single antenna.


If two identical antennas are arranged side by side in a horizontal plane and the signal wavefront arrives directly from the front, each antenna "sees" the same wave or field at the same time. If the wavefront arrives from a source above or below, the same is still true, except that the individual antennas are not operating as efficiently. However, if the wavefront arrives from one side or the other (Fig. 5A and C), the antenna on the side from which the signal is arriving will "feel" the signal first, causing the voltages induced in each antenna to be out of phase. This, in turn, causes partial cancellation of the antenna voltages when they are combined.


The up and down (vertical) "vision" of a horizontal stack is comparable to that of a single antenna, but its side-to-side "vision" is more restricted.


QUAD_STACKS


Stacking four identical antennas, two vertically and two horizontally in a rectangular or diamond pattern, restricts the vision of this combination in all directions off the axis. Called a quad stack, it "sees" as though it were looking through a tube pointed in the direction of the transmitting antenna.

Gain is increased approximately 4 to 5 dB over that of a single antenna.


GENERAL TECHNIQUES


Before you start putting up an array, you should be aware of the following basic considerations which apply to dual and quad stacking of antennas:


1) Stack only identical antennas

2) Maintain approximately one wavelength spacing (at lowest channel frequency) between antennas

3) Cut phasing lines or connecting cables to equal lengths

4) Length and phase oftwinlead interconnecting harnesses is critical

5) Horizontal supports should be nonmetallic

6) Avoid running interconnecting cables horizontally.


Vertical stacking is easier than horizontal stacking simply because in vertical stacks theantennas mount on a common vertical mast and spacing is easily adjusted.


However, with the excellent gain and high directivity of most Yagis today, vertical stacking is seldom necessary. If additional gain is needed, two vertically stacked identical antennas spaced more than /2 wavelength apart will increase signal power by 3dB compared to that of one antenna. However, part of the increased gain will be lost in the connecting cables and the coupler.


Horizontally stacked antennas also must be spaced so that their booms are separated by a distance equal to more than /2 wavelength of the lowest channel frequency. This spacing is needed to prevent the tips of the longest reflector elements from touching. Also, the horizontal supports must be nonmetallic; redwood or cedar 2 x 4 s are commonly used.


The severe ghosts caused by high-rise buildings, water towers and mountains can be reduced or eliminated by horizontallystacking two Yagis. However, the wavelength of a channel 2 signal exceeds 17 feet, making such an array for channel 2 unwieldly, heavy and subject to damage from ice and/or high wind. Fortunately, ghosting is more of a problem at high-band channels, and highband antenna dimensions are significantly smaller. For these reasons, usually only high-band Yagis are stacked horizontally.

 

stagger.pdf 138.447265625k . file


----------



## 2bdefacto

These stations are VHF and UHF, I prefer to have an antenna that has both VHF and UHF capabilities, although after Feb 2009 I am not sure whether this will be a factor


----------



## PA_MainyYak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *2bdefacto* /forum/post/13842816
> 
> 
> These stations are VHF and UHF, I prefer to have an antenna that has both VHF and UHF capabilities, although after Feb 2009 I am not sure whether this will be a factor



Go to the signal finder tool at TV Fool . It provides an excellent estimation of the stations you can pull in from your location. The site will show current and post transition stations, direction, distance, channels - in short all the information needed to offer informed advice on antenna selection.


----------



## Jon_J

One of my channels (ch. 19 RF 40) was getting worse on some days and I was getting dropouts during a storm the next day. I studied this page about attic antennas http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/glossaryA.html#attic 

In bold RED printing it says:

"There should be no horizontal or diagonal wires or pipes in front of the antenna. "

I realized I had a 110 volt horizontal romex wire running straight across my antennas' path at 10 feet above the finished floor.(see attachment)

The next day I completely removed these light fixtures and wiring. I installed the light fixtures at a lower height (7 feet), and ran the romex along the side and below my antennas.

Now (ch. 19 RF 40) comes in with a 10-20% signal strength increase on my CECB (Digital Stream DTX9900).

(ch. 25 RF 57) also showed much improvement, about 20-25% increase in signal strength.

I didn't move or touch either one of my antennas. I just relocated the 110 volt wiring.

During the 2 days that I have studied this and worked on my wiring, there has been some windy/stormy weather. This may throw off my findings on my meter readings.

Also included is my TV-Fool plot. "Radar-Digital.png"


----------



## PCTools

I do not know why the bottom antenna is a little longer.


More to follow...

 

Vertical.pdf 198.9833984375k . file


----------



## PCTools

Here are a couple of pics...










Don't forget to put the rocks in the bottom!

Quote:

Originally Posted by *cpcat* 
I'd like to see a pic of the tower when you get a chance.

 

Tower on Ground.pdf 394.423828125k . file

 

Tower 2.pdf 414.9931640625k . file

 

rocks.pdf 330.2509765625k . file

 

Tower 3.pdf 461.9150390625k . file


----------



## PCTools

The trusty VIP-307 mounted on my first Rohn 50' tower.










Will be stacking the 91XG's on the NEW tower. (listed above)

 

VIP-307.pdf 71.537109375k . file


----------



## PCTools

Rick,


I agree, however, if you would accidently install the wrong piece the overall length of the antenna would not change. (Just the spacing would be impacted). These antennas have different lengths.


Both antennas are on the ground and I am in the process of a "horizontal stack." I will post my findings.


Thanks!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/13847630
> 
> 
> The 91 xg antenna has 3 sections.
> 
> 
> looks like the top has the front 2 and the bottom has the middle 2 or someting in that effect. the spacing is farther apart on the back of the second section.
> 
> 
> you would need to take the antennas down and arrange the parts appropriately. Otherwise the antennas are not perfectly matched as they should be when staking for maximun effectiveness


----------



## ctdish

PCtools,

This is very useful summary of stacking describing the result beamwidth with horizontal and vertical stacking. A couple of points probably need a clarification. In either case the gain from combining two independent antennas will be 3 dB minus the loss in the combining circuit so the gain in not generally lower in horizontal stacking. The need for the antennas to not be coupled and therefore independent gives rise to the required minimum spacing. In general the higher the antenna gain the larger the required spacing requirement. For very narrowband, high gain yagis, amateur radio operators use a rule of thumb of half the boom length. Broadband TV antennas have less gain for a given boom length so they can be spaced somewhat closer. Horizontal and vertical stacking distance for yagis will be larger than half a wavelength and the plane with the narrowest beamwidth will need the largest spacing. For either plane it will come out less than half the boom length for TV antennas.

John



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13840911
> 
> 
> VERTICAL STACKING
> 
> 
> Stacking two identical antennas on a common vertical mast significantly narrows the vertical beam-width angle. That is, vertically stacked antennas more effectively reject those interfering signals arriving from above or below their horizontal plane than does a single antenna. It's as though they were looking through a horizontal venetian blind. Because there's nothing mounted to the side of either antenna, their side-to-side vision is virtually uneffected. In the process, gain increases about 2.5 dB over that of a single antenna.
> 
> 
> Vertical stacking improves both gain and vertical directivity. This helps reduce airplane flutter and attendant picture roll, and certain types of ground noise and ground reflections.
> 
> 
> The basic principle of stacked antennas involves the difference in the time of arrival, and therefore the phase, of signals intercepted by the antenna combination. If a pair of identical Yagi antennas are mounted one above the other, a wavelength apart, on a common vertical mast and are oriented identically (pointed) toward the signal source, any TV signals traveling horizontally and arriving from any direction will be intercepted simultaneously by both antennas.
> 
> 
> Because the antennas are identical, the generated signal voltages arriving at the output terminals shared by the antennas will be in phase, causing them to add directly. Theoretically, there should be a 3 dB increase (double) in signal power over that of a single antenna, but, because of losses in the coupler and cable, the actual gain increase will be somewhat less than 3 dB.
> 
> 
> An important point to remember is that, regardless of the azimuth angle between the antenna orientation and the signal source, the arriving signal will strike any given identical points on the two antennas simultaneously. However, if the signal is arriving from a source above or below the horizontal plane of the antenna, the previous statement is no longer true. For example, if the wavefront is from a source below the plane of the antenna, the signal will arrive first at the lower antenna and the signal voltage from the top antenna will lag the signal from the lower antenna. The signal voltages at the antenna output terminals will no longer be in phase, and partial cancellation will take place. The opposite is true if the signal arrives.
> 
> 
> The angle of arrival and the resultant difference in arrival time causes a phase difference which reduces the magnitude of the combined voltages. You should begin to see now why two vertically stacked, identical antennas have a more restricted "vision" to signals arriving from a point above or below the horizontal plane than does a single antenna.
> 
> 
> HORIZONTAL STACKING
> 
> 
> Stacking two identical antennas side by side in a horizontal plane significantly narrows the horizontal beam-width angle. That is, the antenna combination, like a horse wearing blinders, "sees" fewer interfering signals arriving from the sides while its vision up and down (in a vertical plane) is virtually unaffected. In the process, gain increases approximately 1.2 dB over that of a single antenna.
> 
> 
> If two identical antennas are arranged side by side in a horizontal plane and the signal wavefront arrives directly from the front, each antenna "sees" the same wave or field at the same time. If the wavefront arrives from a source above or below, the same is still true, except that the individual antennas are not operating as efficiently. However, if the wavefront arrives from one side or the other (Fig. 5A and C), the antenna on the side from which the signal is arriving will "feel" the signal first, causing the voltages induced in each antenna to be out of phase. This, in turn, causes partial cancellation of the antenna voltages when they are combined.
> 
> 
> The up and down (vertical) "vision" of a horizontal stack is comparable to that of a single antenna, but its side-to-side "vision" is more restricted.
> 
> 
> QUAD_STACKS
> 
> 
> Stacking four identical antennas, two vertically and two horizontally in a rectangular or diamond pattern, restricts the vision of this combination in all directions off the axis. Called a quad stack, it "sees" as though it were looking through a tube pointed in the direction of the transmitting antenna.
> 
> Gain is increased approximately 4 to 5 dB over that of a single antenna.
> 
> 
> GENERAL TECHNIQUES
> 
> 
> Before you start putting up an array, you should be aware of the following basic considerations which apply to dual and quad stacking of antennas:
> 
> 
> 1) Stack only identical antennas
> 
> 2) Maintain approximately one wavelength spacing (at lowest channel frequency) between antennas
> 
> 3) Cut phasing lines or connecting cables to equal lengths
> 
> 4) Length and phase oftwinlead interconnecting harnesses is critical
> 
> 5) Horizontal supports should be nonmetallic
> 
> 6) Avoid running interconnecting cables horizontally.
> 
> 
> Vertical stacking is easier than horizontal stacking simply because in vertical stacks theantennas mount on a common vertical mast and spacing is easily adjusted.
> 
> 
> However, with the excellent gain and high directivity of most Yagis today, vertical stacking is seldom necessary. If additional gain is needed, two vertically stacked identical antennas spaced more than /2 wavelength apart will increase signal power by 3dB compared to that of one antenna. However, part of the increased gain will be lost in the connecting cables and the coupler.
> 
> 
> Horizontally stacked antennas also must be spaced so that their booms are separated by a distance equal to more than /2 wavelength of the lowest channel frequency. This spacing is needed to prevent the tips of the longest reflector elements from touching. Also, the horizontal supports must be nonmetallic; redwood or cedar 2' x 4' s are commonly used.
> 
> 
> The severe ghosts caused by high-rise buildings, water towers and mountains can be reduced or eliminated by horizontallystacking two Yagis. However, the wavelength of a channel 2 signal exceeds 17 feet, making such an array for channel 2 unwieldly, heavy and subject to damage from ice and/or high wind. Fortunately, ghosting is more of a problem at high-band channels, and highband antenna dimensions are significantly smaller. For these reasons, usually only high-band Yagis are stacked horizontally.


----------



## fbest

I'm in the 15210 zip code. Looking at the info from tvfool my transmitters are located from North to Southeast.What I am trying to do is find the best antenna solution which does not use a rotor.This would be mounted on the chimney of a two story house. I know that this will involve stacking two antenna on the same mast that are pointing in different directions. One a little East of North and one to the Southeast. If you look at the plot from tvfool, the stations the I would like to receive would be:48,38,25,26,42,43,51,and49. Any thing else would be a bonus.


I would like to ask the members of the forum for any suggestions you may have.As to why I do not want a rotor,my wife is a channel clicker. She has to change the station when a commercial comes on.I don't think the rotor could handel it.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbest* /forum/post/13852142
> 
> 
> What I am trying to do is find the best antenna solution which does not use a rotor.



Aim a Channel Master 4220 at 352 degrees for 25, 42, 43, and 48. Get another 4220 aimed at 133 degrees for 51. Use a channel 51 (or perhaps a channel 52) Jointenna to add them together. Aim a Winegard HD7694P at 44 degrees and use an A/B switch to watch PBS. (No commercials to zap)


I don't see channels 26 or 49 listed.


----------



## fbest

Channels 26 and 49 would be great. Like I said, Anything else would be a bonus.


----------



## jtbell

Re mis-assembled 91XG's:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13847789
> 
> 
> I agree, however, if you would accidently install the wrong piece the overall length of the antenna would not change. (Just the spacing would be impacted).



No, the front section is shorter than the other two. See the attached picture of the 91XG that I assembled a few days ago, and which will hopefully go up tomorrow. Front is at the top in this picture. Also note that the spacing between the elements should decrease steadily from front to back, except for the frontmost one.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbest* /forum/post/13852142
> 
> 
> I'm in the 15210 zip code. Looking at the info from tvfool my transmitters are located from North to Southeast.What I am trying to do is find the best antenna solution which does not use a rotor....I would like to receive would be:48,38,25,26,42,43,51,and49. ...As to why I do not want a rotor,my wife is a channel clicker. She has to change the station when a commercial comes on.I don't think the rotor could handel it.



Your stations are at a range of angles but not all that weak. A number of us on the antenna making thread have been experimenting with simple 4-bay bowtie arrays, in my case to get stations at -77 dBm indoors. High on a mast, you'll get far weaker stations, maybe -20dBm, which should get you Ch 51. This leads to an interesting suggestion.


You could use two reflectorless 4-bays stacked vertically, but aimed in perpendicular directions to get an omnidirectional antenna. Here's a link to an image of a similar set-up, but aimed in the same directions.
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...&postcount=163 


The basic bowtie antenna is a dipole, and a 4-bay array is a strongly bi-directional gain pattern. Commercial antenna usually come with a reflector that increases gain by making it highly directional. Remove the reflectors, aim them at 90 degrees and mount them vertically >16" apart and you should get omni-directional reception.


The only downside is -4dB loss in the combining, but mounting on a mast helps a lot compared with my family room and attic. Multipath issues could be maximized by the wide reception area, but the solution to that is the directionality that comes from a reflector, at the price of stations at 180 degree separations.


Anyone see any other caveats?


Let us know what you do,

Frank


----------



## PCTools

Well, the best performance is with the horizontal stack.


The brackets on these 91 XG's are terrible. I noticed that the antennas spin up and down (when windy). Goind to replace the thumbscrews with bolts.


Look at picture #1, and let me know your comments on how I attached the five foot pipe to the vertical mask. I just drilled 2 holes and inserted a U-Bolt. I wonder if this is going to be good enough.


Thanks!

 

Horizontal Stack #1.pdf 449.990234375k . file

 

Horizontal Stack # 2.pdf 150.2421875k . file


----------



## PA_MainyYak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbest* /forum/post/13852142
> 
> 
> I'm in the 15210 zip code. Looking at the info from tvfool my transmitters are located from North to Southeast.What I am trying to do is find the best antenna solution which does not use a rotor.This would be mounted on the chimney of a two story house. I know that this will involve stacking two antenna on the same mast that are pointing in different directions. One a little East of North and one to the Southeast. If you look at the plot from tvfool, the stations the I would like to receive would be:48,38,25,26,42,43,51,and49. Any thing else would be a bonus.
> 
> 
> I would like to ask the members of the forum for any suggestions you may have.As to why I do not want a rotor,my wife is a channel clicker. She has to change the station when a commercial comes on.I don't think the rotor could handle it.



Keep in mind, ch 49 (the CW - and not on the air digitally) will move to ch 11 as soon as WPXI ends analog, and WQED will be moving back to ch 13 from 38 next spring.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/13854489
> 
> 
> Anyone see any other caveats?



In a shadowed situation close to the towers the multipath will be higher than normal. This suggests that omnidirectional antennas could be more troublesome.


----------



## Blackduck

What is the best way to run the coax from the balun to the antenna mast on a single 91XG? Is it straight out the back from the balun, then down the back of the screen, continuing that angle over to the mast with the coax in the open until reaching the mast? Walter


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/13855723
> 
> 
> In a shadowed situation close to the towers the multipath will be higher than normal. This suggests that omnidirectional antennas could be more troublesome.



That's exactly my concern, but I only know two ways to get stations across a 155* direction span ... the alternative is to use semi-directional antennas, like commercial 4-bays, and hope the gain pattern is wide enough to span 350 to 44 degrees and 99 to 133 degrees.


Frank


----------



## Blackduck




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/13855424
> 
> 
> the front element is missing on both antennas.
> 
> 
> Also, loop the coax out through the back screen and straight back through the screen into the balun. you have the coax jammed in front of the screen in front of the balun.
> 
> 
> for stability use a small/narrow plastic tie to attach the coax onto the screen and on the antenna prior to the balun...after the coax fitting is tightened.



Rick, I must be missing something here in this cable running. I don't see where there is any coax jammed in front of his screens/baluns, could you provide us with a photo or diagram of your suggested coax path?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13855372
> 
> 
> Well, the best performance is with the horizontal stack.
> 
> 
> The brackets on these 91 XG's are terrible. I noticed that the antennas spin up and down (when windy). Goind to replace the thumbscrews with bolts.
> 
> 
> Look at picture #1, and let me know your comments on how I attached the five foot pipe to the vertical mask. I just drilled 2 holes and inserted a U-Bolt. I wonder if this is going to be good enough.
> 
> 
> Thanks!



I doubt it will hold up. #1 the antennas will spin around the fiberglass with just the single attachment. You need add another horizontal piece of fiberglass (similar to what I showed you). This will require another u-bolt attachment to the secondary boom on the antenna. You'll then have better stability in the tilt plane.


#2 the u-bolt drilled directly through the fiberlass is likely to crack it over time. This is the point at which the installation sees the most stress. You need a 90 degree metal bracket of some sort. Again, you might consider something similar to what I've shown in my pics previously.


Around 57 inches horizontal spacing works best for me.


Using this formula: http://www.astronwireless.com/topic-...i-antennas.asp 


It will calculate to around 57 inches if you use channel 14 in your calculation.


Right around 57 inches is also the recommendation from Televes for the DAT 75.


----------



## fbest




> Quote:
> That's exactly my concern, but I only know two ways to get stations across a 155* direction span ... the alternative is to use semi-directional antennas, like commercial 4-bays, and hope the gain pattern is wide enough to span 350 to 44 degrees and 99 to 133 degrees.




I have had exchanged some e-mails with Denny Duplessis @dennysantennaservice.com.. His original advice for my situation was to install his UP-7 antenna, which from what I can find only he sells,pointing a little East of North.Install a Winegard HD9032 pointing Southeast. Couple them together with the CC7870 antenna couple and a Winegard AP 8700 preamplifier. He figured that I would have some signal loss from the weaker stations like 49 and 50 and I would not receive others.


Is this a viable solution? Would the HD9032 receive channel 51, would it receive anything else? As you say above I need two antenna with a wide enough gain pattern to receive the signals from the two areas. Since I can find no other info on the UP-7 antenna I don't know if I could mount two of them on the same mast at 90* angles?


It would be nice if I could just buy the antennas and not have to worry about building them. My feeling from what I have been reading is the antennas must point directly at the transmitter for the best reception. Any help would be most welcome.


----------



## mlmahon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/13855424
> 
> 
> the front element is missing on both antennas.
> 
> 
> Also, loop the coax out through the back screen and straight back through the screen into the balun. you have the coax jammed in front of the screen in front of the balun.
> 
> 
> for stability use a small/narrow plastic tie to attach the coax onto the screen and on the antenna prior to the balun...after the coax fitting is tightened.



Also, the directors on the middle section of 1 antenna are facing the wrong direction, according to the assembly instructions.


----------



## jtbell

Well, I did get that 91XG that I showed a picture of yesterday, up on my roof today, along with a Winegard YA-1713 for VHF. This combination replaced a Radio Shack VU-190XR VHF/UHF combo. (pictures attached)


If I had seen Rick0275's postings in time, I would have had the installers loop the coax through a reflector screen on the 91XG like he describes, but now I'll just wait until I need to get something fixed up there.


It's probably too early to come to conclusions about differences in reception because atmospheric conditions might be unusually favorable tonight, and I haven't seen how this setup behaves when the wind kicks up, but...


Several out-of-market stations at about 70 miles that have been marginal around 6 pm the last few weeks, gave me solid reception at that time: RF channels 22 and 23 out of Charlotte NC, and 32 and 48 out of Columbia SC. Around 8 pm, RF channels 27 and 34 (85 miles) out of Charlotte showed up, and have been solid all evening; these are stations that I could get only semi-regularly in the evening before, with 34 coming in much less often than 27.


Among my in-market stations (Greenville SC / Asheville NC), I've previously had some problems with three of them: RF 57 which has some interference from analog 57 in Columbia, now comes in steadily; RF 14 which has been strong but erratic because of (I think) multipath from trees etc., now comes in steadily; RF 25 from Asheville which has interference from analog 25 in Columbia, is still erratic, but may be a bit better now (and the interference will go away next February in any event).


On the other hand, RF 45 out of Asheville, 47 out of Charlotte, and 41 out of Columbia aren't quite as good as before, although still good enough for stable reception.


I can't come to any conclusions about VHF yet, because I have only two digital VHF channels: 8 out of Columbia which is OK, and 9 out of Greenville which is erratic because of interference from analog 9 out of Charlotte; no change from my previous setup.


Overall, I'm pleased with the results so far, but I'll need to watch for a while over a variety of weather conditions to be sure.


----------



## PCTools

Well, to do things "right" I made the plunge and purchased the Blonder Tongue BTY-MC stacking bracket. Holy Cow, these things are NOT worth their price. $100 for a bracket. I could have bought a ten foot section of tower for that.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=SS4879 


Spec's http://www.tonercable.com/Files/Prod...TY%20BROAD.pdf 


Picture  http://www.tonercable.com/Files/Prod...age1_Large.jpg


----------



## PCTools

Jtbell,


Congrats on your new purchase. Would it be possible to capture a picture on how you looped the coax out the back of your 91XG?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/13862720
> 
> 
> Well, I did get that 91XG that I showed a picture of yesterday, up on my roof today, along with a Winegard YA-1713 for VHF. This combination replaced a Radio Shack VU-190XR VHF/UHF combo.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13863533
> 
> 
> Well, to do things "right" I made the plunge and purchased the Blonder Tongue BTY-MC stacking bracket. Holy Cow, these things are NOT worth their price. $100 for a bracket. I could have bought a ten foot section of tower for that.
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=SS4879
> 
> 
> Spec's http://www.tonercable.com/Files/Prod...TY%20BROAD.pdf
> 
> 
> Picture http://www.tonercable.com/Files/Prod...age1_Large.jpg



They're stainless steel and very heavy duty.


----------



## LolaR

I really hope I'm not posting on the wrong thread. I just got my DTV converter box and the quality of the channels I do get is gorgeous! However, I lost a bunch of the ones I used to get with just by rabbit ears (grainy, but at least I had PBS then). I'm assuming I need a better antenna to recover the lost signal of the rest of the channels (and this MUST happen before tomorrow night so I can watch Lost! ). According to antennaweb.org I need an outdoor small multi-directional antenna. I can't really see myself installing something like that in my rental -- do I really need this? Plus, I'm on the top floor of a 4-story walk-up in a very residential part of Bklyn (not many tall buildings here, although "close" to JKF airport), so I think that something like an outdoor/rooftop thing would be overkill. Is there such a thing as a great indoor antenna I can just get instead and would fix the issue?


Thanks!


----------



## AntAltMike

Is PVC sufficiently RF transparent that I might mount something like a couple of Winegard PR-9022s on a 2" PVC horizontal boom with the dipole elements being behind the boom? I figure I would just drill a couple of 1/4" holes in the boom at the antennas balance points and have the U-bolts penetrate the boom from the underside. That would make it real esay to experiment with horizontal spacing by just sliding one of the antennas nearer to and further from the other one.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/13867032
> 
> 
> Is PVC sufficiently RF transparent that I might mount something like a couple of Winegard PR-9022s on a 2" PVC horizontal boom with the dipole elements being behind the boom? I figure I would just drill a couple of 1/4" holes in the boom at the antennas balance points and have the U-bolts penetrate the boom from the underside. That would make it real esay to experiment with horizontal spacing by just sliding one of the antennas nearer to and further from the other one.



I don't think there will be any problems with interference. The problem you may run into is it just isn't stiff enough and it will sag.


----------



## cpcat

Here's a pic of a stack of pr-9032's I did. The performance wasn't as good as I'd hoped.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13863536
> 
> 
> JWould it be possible to capture a picture on how you looped the coax out the back of your 91XG?



Here's a telephoto shot in which you can make out the balun and the coax. There's a pretty sharp bend coming out of the balun. Whenever it fails, I'll get it re-done properly.


----------



## TV in NY




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LolaR* /forum/post/13866042
> 
> 
> I really hope I'm not posting on the wrong thread. I just got my DTV converter box and the quality of the channels I do get is gorgeous! However, I lost a bunch of the ones I used to get with just by rabbit ears (grainy, but at least I had PBS then). I'm assuming I need a better antenna to recover the lost signal of the rest of the channels (and this MUST happen before tomorrow night so I can watch Lost! ). According to antennaweb.org I need an outdoor small multi-directional antenna. I can't really see myself installing something like that in my rental -- do I really need this? Plus, I'm on the top floor of a 4-story walk-up in a very residential part of Bklyn (not many tall buildings here, although "close" to JKF airport), so I think that something like an outdoor/rooftop thing would be overkill. Is there such a thing as a great indoor antenna I can just get instead and would fix the issue?
> 
> 
> Thanks!



You need an antenna that can pick up the UHF band fairly well. Your old rabbit ears probably just can't do the entire job.


Have you tried building a DB2 clone? Usually that would work fine in Brooklyn. What type of line of sight do you have to the Empire State Building?


I'm willing to bet you could build an excellent antenna for yourself that would pick up almost all of the stations.


I live on Staten Island and my DB4 clone is very good. It picks up stations from as far away as Poughkeepsie. I can get CBS from Philadelphia if I turn the antenna a bit.


----------



## PCTools

JTBell,


Thanks for the photo. I was unable to loop RG6-Quad shield in front of the balun. (Like your photo). It was to large of a radius in this turn, and too much stress on the balun for me.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/13871174
> 
> 
> Here's a telephoto shot in which you can make out the balun and the coax. There's a pretty sharp bend coming out of the balun. Whenever it fails, I'll get it re-done properly.


----------



## PCTools

Mr. Cpcat,


Per the Astron wireless page, here are some calculations I made for a pair of 91XG’s.


Distance (S) = 51/Beamwidth (BW)


S = 51 / 20 (Beamwidth of 91XG)

S = 2.55


Now, tuning for the desired frequency is your choice. However, channels 52 – 69 are in the process of being cleared once conversion to digital TV is accomplished. Channel 37 is reserved for radio astronomy in the US, Canada, Bermuda, and Bahamas.


So, I picked Channel 30.


Wavelength in inches = 11803/F (Frequency)


Wavelength = 11803/570


Wavelength = 20.70”


Using this formula, a wavelength at 570Mhz is:


20.70” X 2.55 (wavelengths) = 52.78”

Space the stack 53” apart…


Any other comments?


----------



## LolaR

TV in NY,


Thanks! I've looked into this whole UHF thing, and I was about to go looking for an indoor antenna that would help with that. However, I like the idea of making my own antenna! Would it still have to go on my roof, though?


Also, I'm pretty sure I can see the Empiere State Bldg from my rooftop. I've only been there once, since I'm afraid of heights, which would explain my apprehension about installing a rooftop antenna.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools*  /forum/post/13871908
> 
> 
> Mr. Cpcat,
> 
> 
> Per the Astron wireless page, here are some calculations I made for a pair of 91XG’s.
> 
> 
> Distance (S) = 51/Beamwidth (BW)
> 
> 
> S = 51 / 20 (Beamwidth of 91XG)
> 
> S = 2.55
> 
> 
> Now, tuning for the desired frequency is your choice. However, channels 52 – 69 are in the process of being cleared once conversion to digital TV is accomplished. Channel 37 is reserved for radio astronomy in the US, Canada, Bermuda, and Bahamas.
> 
> 
> So, I picked Channel 30.
> 
> 
> Wavelength in inches = 11803/F (Frequency)
> 
> 
> Wavelength = 11803/570
> 
> 
> Wavelength = 20.70”
> 
> 
> Using this formula, a wavelength at 570Mhz is:
> 
> 
> 20.70” X 2.55 (wavelengths) = 52.78”
> 
> Space the stack 53” apart…
> 
> 
> Any other comments?



That's right. I personally use channel 14 in the calculation simply because that's the lowest channel I receive. The wider spacing doesn't seem to negatively effect the upper channels while improving the lower ones. I've tested extensively and right around 57 inches has always worked best for me with both the Televes DAT75 and the Triax Unix 100A. I'd leave extra length (at least 60 inches) incorporated into the length of the fiberglass rods you use so there's room for adjustment and experimentation.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LolaR* /forum/post/13874015
> 
> 
> TV in NY,
> 
> 
> Thanks! I've looked into this whole UHF thing, and I was about to go looking for an indoor antenna that would help with that. However, I like the idea of making my own antenna! Would it still have to go on my roof, though?
> 
> 
> Also, I'm pretty sure I can see the Empiere State Bldg from my rooftop. I've only been there once, since I'm afraid of heights, which would explain my apprehension about installing a rooftop antenna.



Lola,

Since no one mentioned it, go to TVFool.com, tell it your address and you'll get a chart showing what stations you cna get and how weak their signal might be. I threw in Jamaica NY's long and lat to get some idea what you've got, and it should be an easy situation. Almost everything comes from the Empire State Building, and with enough signal for indoor antennas.


TVFool also tells you channels, now and post transition. After Feb 07, you'll again have VHF stations, so save those rabbit ears.


In the mean time, you don't need much. If you want to kill a coat hanger, something like the attached may suffice, or just get the little bowtie that comes with a lot of TV's (Radio Shack p/n 15-234). You're close enough that one of these little guys facing the ESB should get you plenty of signal through the walls, and if not(steel construction?), certainly through a window.


Let us know,

Frank


----------



## ctdish

The 53" inch spacing is probably reasonable. My quad of 4248 are at 48".

Are you using horizontal or vertical spacing? If horizontal the beamwidth will be fairly narrow. On channel 17 the -3dB response would be about 7 Deg from beam center with a deep notch at 14 Deg. On channel 58 the same responses would be 4 Deg and 9 deg.

John



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13871908
> 
> 
> Mr. Cpcat,
> 
> 
> Per the Astron wireless page, here are some calculations I made for a pair of 91XG's.
> 
> 
> Distance (S) = 51/Beamwidth (BW)
> 
> 
> Space the stack 53 apart
> 
> 
> Any other comments?


----------



## PCTools

To my knowledge the spacing in-between the antennas (stack) will be same for horizontal or vertical stacking. To answer your question, it will be horizontal stacking.


I will go with a 60" spacing between the 91XG's.


The narrow beamwith is a slight concern, as with the CM 9521 rotator may not be capable of indexing such a small movement, thus always overshooting your transmitter. I decided to hold-off on the Quad stack until I purchase a Yaesu rotor in the future. Yaesu = $400.










I'll post some pictures as I am installing this on Friday.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/13875014
> 
> 
> The 53" inch spacing is probably reasonable. My quad of 4248 are at 48".
> 
> Are you using horizontal or vertical spacing? If horizontal the beamwidth will be fairly narrow. On channel 17 the -3dB response would be about 7 Deg from beam center with a deep notch at 14 Deg. On channel 58 the same responses would be 4 Deg and 9 deg.
> 
> John


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13875143
> 
> 
> To my knowledge the spacing in-between the antennas (stack) will be same for horizontal or vertical stacking. To answer your question, it will be horizontal stacking.
> 
> 
> I will go with a 60" spacing between the 91XG's.
> 
> 
> The narrow beamwith is a slight concern, as with the CM 9521 rotator may not be capable of indexing such a small movement, thus always overshooting your transmitter. I decided to hold-off on the Quad stack until I purchase a Yaesu rotor in the future. Yaesu = $400.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll post some pictures as I am installing this on Friday.



The 9521 has worked well for me. It's the only rotator I know of with remote control.










You might find 60 inches a little too much. I think the calculcations are nice, but in the end there's no substitute for real world testing. I bet you'll end up somwhere b/w 52 and 58 inches. Test it on the smaller mast if you need to before installing it on the tower (if it won't be easily accessible after it's on the tower).


----------



## wdj03

I posted a bit back on page 241.. I'm connecting an Antenna to a DirecTV HR-20. I'd like something inexpensive that will work in my attic.


Here are the tvfool numbers for my location.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wdj03* /forum/post/13800342
> 
> 
> ABC - 151kW | -41.5 dBm | 11.9 miles | 266 true
> 
> NBC - 30kW | -52.3 dBm - 12.9 miles | 293 true
> 
> CBS - 6.3kW | -63.4 dBm - 14 miles | 281 true
> 
> PBS - 90kW | -49.0 dBm - 9.7 miles | 264 true



Per the advice I got on my prior posts, I bought an inexpensive Phillips VHF/UHF antenna and tried it indoors on top of my entertainment center last night. Link: http://www.consumer.philips.com/cons...nna+SDV2270-27 


My entertainment center is about 20 feet from an exterior wall (with windows) that's in the general direction of the towers.


My best station was PBS, the signal strength hovered around 60-70. Next best was ABC, I'd get 40-50 with an occasional dropout. No signal on the other two. Obviously, these signals arent acceptable. I really need to get a strong signal on NBC by Saturday afternoon.


Questions..

1) Would I see a substantial improvement in signal by moving this same antenna into the attic?


2) Should I try another antenna (perhaps the unamplified RCA suggested to me previously?


3) Inexpensive antennas are typically indoor, is the attic considered "indoor" or are these antennas susceptible to heat?


----------



## Neil L

1) Some improvement, but probably not substantial.

2) Yes, the amplifier is probably wrecking you signal. If you can't switch the amplifier off, certainly worth trying a non-amplified model.

3) Outdoor antennas are no more costly than indoor, and will work great in the attic. In fact, a good antenna will likely cost less than a amplified indoor antenna.


----------



## wdj03




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/13881532
> 
> 
> 1) Some improvement, but probably not substantial.
> 
> 2) Yes, the amplifier is probably wrecking you signal. If you can't switch the amplifier off, certainly worth trying a non-amplified model.
> 
> 3) Outdoor antennas are no more costly than indoor, and will work great in the attic. In fact, a good antenna will likely cost less than a amplified indoor antenna.



You know, I saw the knobs on that thing and thought to myself "I think I'm supposed to NOT get an amplified model, and I bet the knobs mean that it's amplified.." but I bought it anyway.. Oh well, easy to take back..


So I'm thinking I'll stop by Radio Shack and/or Best Buy. If they have a relatively inexpensive ($30-ish) unamplified outdoor I'll grab that and try it in the attic as you suggest. Worst case, I can mount it on my DirecTV pole. I might also pick up some cheap-o rabbit ears and give those a whirl. My "local HDTV" thread here on AVS has several people that are a few miles farther from the towers getting 90+ signal strength on everything with just rabbit ears in the attic.


Also - My stations go from 8 in the "VHF High" band up to 24 in UHF. Do I need a UHF/VHF antenna or will just UHF work? Will just rabbit ears work?


----------



## Junglerock

From post #962


Well... exactly 1 month later I've got my antenna's up. The TB-105 bearing from Warren Electronics is NOT high quality. There is about 1/4" play within the bearing. The center of the bearing has flash in it which has to be sanded off if you intend to use 1 1/2" mast. I ended up buying a 10' piece of electrical conduit and cutting it in half. (seems to be stout enough)


The biggest problem is that the bearing sticks out from the mast somewhere between 1/4' and 1/2 " farther than the rotor which puts a serious bind on the rotor. I ended up having to make spacers to make the rotor match the bearing. The rotor works, but still has a little bind in it. When I have a chance to get back on the roof, I will further "tweak" the "spacers".


The good news is I am extremely pleased with the 91XG and a YA 1713 antenna's. I can now get a solid lock on KXII DT-20 (12) that tvfool shows to have a signal of -126.1 (2 edge) at 99.5 miles.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Junglerock* /forum/post/13888167
> 
> 
> The good news is I am extremely pleased with the 91XG and a YA 1713 antenna's. I can now get a solid lock on KXII DT-20 (12) that tvfool shows to have a signal of -126.1 (2 edge) at 99.5 miles.



Some of that may be due to tropo enhancement. This picture of Friday should be good for several hours.

http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tr_map/archive/6eam.jpg


----------



## Junglerock

Actually years ago I used to pick up channel 12 (Sherman) regularly, sometimes a little snow but mostly pretty good. I didn't watch it much (other than for weather) because it was redundant. But now it is a little more interesting with MYTV 12.2 and Fox 12.3. With my old antenna I could get a lock only at night, but with the 91xg the signal level has been between 4 and 6 (daytime) and 8 and 10 (night). But of course time will tell...


By the way, my antenna sits pretty high being that I don't live too far from Slipdown Mountain (not much of a mountain) but it is the highest point in Parker County at 1368 ft. and also the highest point within the DFW metroplex, so that helps.


----------



## Falcon_77

Is this another new Winegard offering, the HD-1080:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=HD-1080 


I only see a 2-bay version at the moment. I might be inclined to try it, but it's a bit pricey for a 2-bay.


----------



## Neil L

Yeah, the HD1080 seems a bit high priced to me as well. I've been planning to make my own antenna something like it though, to receive to two stations that are local here. Channels 19 and 8.


----------



## PCTools

Horizontal Stack of the 91XG's at 56' in the Air.


2 - Antenna's Direct 91XG's

1 - Winguard High Bander


Rohn 20 Tower - 50 Ft

- 3/4 Yrd of Concrete

- House bracket (16ft of ground)

Channel Master 9521 Rotator

Channel Master 7777 Pre-Amp

RG11U - Coax


One fat installer. (Not me)


Special thanks to Greg & Bob!

 

Raise the Tower.pdf 355.779296875k . file

 

Prepare the Antennas.pdf 429.53515625k . file

 

Bracket.pdf 428.8408203125k . file

 

Up They Go.pdf 448.9921875k . file


----------



## Neil L

PCTools,


That is one nice set-up. Thanks for including pictures of the installation. I've never seen a tower installed (except when I and a couple of buddies put mine up). What kind of a winch/lift mechanism was the installer using to raise the tower sections and antenna assembly?


----------



## PA_MainyYak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13898183
> 
> 
> Horizontal Stack of the 91XG's at 56' in the Air.
> 
> 2 - Antenna's Direct 91XG's
> 
> 1 - Winguard High Bander
> 
> Rohn 20 Tower - 50 Ft
> 
> - 3/4 Yrd of Concrete
> 
> - House bracket (16ft of ground)
> 
> Channel Master 9521 Rotator
> 
> Channel Master 7777 Pre-Amp
> 
> RG11U - Coax
> 
> One fat installer. (Not me)
> 
> Special thanks to Greg & Bob!



Wow! that's an impressive rig. The tower climbing guy: a pro, or a buddy with more cojones than brains?


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/13898322
> 
> 
> What kind of a winch/lift mechanism was the installer using to raise the tower sections and antenna assembly?



It's in the pictures. It's called a "gin pole". Usually powered by "elbow grease" at ground level.


Ron


----------



## PCTools

Rick,


I went with 54" spacing. Also, thanks for the info on how to place the coax.










Make sure you throw away those thumb screws and use some nuts. The thumbscrews do not have enough torque to hold them in place. I also placed silcon on the backs of the reflectors to help prevent them from moving in the wind.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/13898465
> 
> 
> Very nice setup.
> 
> 
> What was your final decision on spacing on the two 91 xg's


----------



## tyromark

PC Tools,


"A thing of beauty and a joy forever!"


Thanks for the multiple shots of each of those phases of completion.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13898183
> 
> 
> Horizontal Stack of the 91XG's at 56' in the Air.
> 
> 
> 2 - Antenna's Direct 91XG's
> 
> 1 - Winguard High Bander
> 
> 
> Rohn 20 Tower - 50 Ft
> 
> - 3/4 Yrd of Concrete
> 
> - House bracket (16ft of ground)
> 
> Channel Master 9521 Rotator
> 
> Channel Master 7777 Pre-Amp
> 
> RG11U - Coax
> 
> 
> One fat installer. (Not me)
> 
> 
> Special thanks to Greg & Bob!



Very nice indeed. Another Dxer in the making.










Can't say I don't envy the extra height you have as I'm pretty much limited to around 30 feet max. Someday maybe.


----------



## Falcon_77

Great pics. Thanks, PCTools.


It must be nice to be able to place an antenna on one's roof. Living in a condo, this doesn't seem to be possible, but I'm doing ok with the attic right now. Still, a nice tower like this would be sure to turn some heads.


How is it working out so far?


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *n4yqt* /forum/post/13898464
> 
> 
> Yes. This antenna has been mentioned in the past on another thread.



How about the new CM offering?

http://www.channelmasterintl.com/2016.html 


This looks very basic. I have to wonder how effective sweeping the VHF elements forward is in this case.


I continue to question the value of putting out new designs for UHF 69. Sacrificing performance under 37 doesn't seem like a good idea in the long run.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13898183
> 
> 
> Horizontal Stack of the 91XG's at 56' in the Air.
> 
> 
> 2 - Antenna's Direct 91XG's
> 
> 1 - Winguard High Bander
> 
> 
> Rohn 20 Tower - 50 Ft
> 
> - 3/4 Yrd of Concrete
> 
> - House bracket (16ft of ground)
> 
> Channel Master 9521 Rotator
> 
> Channel Master 7777 Pre-Amp
> 
> RG11U - Coax
> 
> 
> One fat installer. (Not me)
> 
> 
> Special thanks to Greg & Bob!



Nice pics chad.Looks good and hats off to the fatman with the big noogets.Let me know when you want to put up a Big highbander...


Greg b


----------



## PCTools

Gents,


Thanks for the feedback on the new system.


If you have any questions, let me know.


Chad


----------



## ctdish

Have you looked at something like these for a rotor?

Ebay 310051918223 and 290231488754


John


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13907931
> 
> 
> 1) Replace the Wingard 1731 and go with a MAXHD High Bander.



Is the MAXHD available domestically? At 13', however, I probably wouldn't be able to put it anywhere.


Are the specs in dBd or dBi? It has 3 different reflectors or are those the various options it has?


As a side-note, bow-tie antennas don't seem to be very popular in Europe. Does anyone know why?


----------



## cpcat

Here's a couple of pics. It's better by a fair margin than the Y10 7-13 but needs more spacing to stack.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/13909514
> 
> 
> Is the MAXHD available domestically?
> 
> 
> Are the specs in dBd or dBi? It has 3 different reflectors or are those the various options it has?
> 
> 
> As a side-note, bow-tie antennas don't seem to be very popular in Europe. Does anyone know why?



What Falcon said (err, or asked). I'd like to read the answers to those questions as well.


Come next year, I'll be in the less than desirable position of needing high gain on channels 5, 13, 24, 28, 29, 30. Now all my DTV channels are UHF, and I'm getting by fine with a CM 4228. That high bander MAXHD is talking about, look really cool, but I doubt I really need that much for one channel. And that still leaves me looking for a channel 5 solution. Oh well, I'll get looking, reading and planning for a little while longer.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/13911275
> 
> 
> Come next year, I'll be in the less than desirable position of needing high gain on channels 5, 13, 24, 28, 29, 30. Now all my DTV channels are UHF, and I'm getting by fine with a CM 4228. That high bander MAXHD is talking about, look really cool, but I doubt I really need that much for one channel. And that still leaves me looking for a channel 5 solution. Oh well, I'll get looking, reading and planning for a little while longer.



Well, the Triax Unix 100a (uhf 14-38) would do a fine job for your uhf channels. You could then go with a wideband vhf below it or even a high band + cut channel 5.


----------



## holl_ands

Funke uses dBi, so subtract 2.15 dB.


----------



## donnyjaguar

Nice setup. But tell us how it works!


----------



## Blackduck




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/13862720
> 
> 
> Well, I did get that 91XG that I showed a picture of yesterday, up on my roof today, along with a Winegard YA-1713 for VHF. This combination replaced a Radio Shack VU-190XR VHF/UHF combo. (pictures attached)
> 
> 
> If I had seen Rick0275's postings in time, I would have had the installers loop the coax through a reflector screen on the 91XG like he describes, but now I'll just wait until I need to get something fixed up there.
> 
> 
> It's probably too early to come to conclusions about differences in reception because atmospheric conditions might be unusually favorable tonight, and I haven't seen how this setup behaves when the wind kicks up, but...
> 
> 
> Several out-of-market stations at about 70 miles that have been marginal around 6 pm the last few weeks, gave me solid reception at that time: RF channels 22 and 23 out of Charlotte NC, and 32 and 48 out of Columbia SC. Around 8 pm, RF channels 27 and 34 (85 miles) out of Charlotte showed up, and have been solid all evening; these are stations that I could get only semi-regularly in the evening before, with 34 coming in much less often than 27.
> 
> 
> Among my in-market stations (Greenville SC / Asheville NC), I've previously had some problems with three of them: RF 57 which has some interference from analog 57 in Columbia, now comes in steadily; RF 14 which has been strong but erratic because of (I think) multipath from trees etc., now comes in steadily; RF 25 from Asheville which has interference from analog 25 in Columbia, is still erratic, but may be a bit better now (and the interference will go away next February in any event).
> 
> 
> On the other hand, RF 45 out of Asheville, 47 out of Charlotte, and 41 out of Columbia aren't quite as good as before, although still good enough for stable reception.
> 
> 
> I can't come to any conclusions about VHF yet, because I have only two digital VHF channels: 8 out of Columbia which is OK, and 9 out of Greenville which is erratic because of interference from analog 9 out of Charlotte; no change from my previous setup.
> 
> 
> Overall, I'm pleased with the results so far, but I'll need to watch for a while over a variety of weather conditions to be sure.





After a week or so, how do you feel about your new system in comparison to your old VU-190? Walter


----------



## jcs444

I am mounting a homebuilt hoverman with screen in the attic and want to add a set oif rabbit ears on top to pick up a vhf channel better. Should I use an antenna combiner or could I just attach the rabbit ear twinleads onto the same screws as the 300/75 transformer on the hoverman?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jcs444* /forum/post/13919595
> 
> 
> I am mounting a homebuilt hoverman with screen in the attic and want to add a set oif rabbit ears on top to pick up a vhf channel better. Should I use an antenna combiner or could I just attach the rabbit ear twinleads onto the same screws as the 300/75 transformer on the hoverman?



I have built a DBGH and have been experimenting with it for VHF frequencies today. The Gray Hoverman unmodded is bad at VHF, worse than rabbit ears. (look at the vhf graph Autofils posted, I found it to be pretty correct) I attached two 3/8 inch tubing pieces to it parallel to the last top vees (45degree angle), connected to the top vee vertex, about 45 inches long each (which I had lying around and didnt want to cut). Low and behold, I got analog channels 2, 3 and 6 as good as or even maybe a bit better than rabbit ears. Analog channel 10 was about as good as rabbit ears, but analog channels 11, 12, 13 a little worse than rabbit ears. What was interesting, in almost all cases, and in almost all positions, adding those two elements did nothing to effect the analog uhf reception, good or bad. So if you have low vhf local channels, that may be an option for you.


In my case after 2/17/09, Ill have digital channels 6 and 12 moving back to their original spots. I think with the above mod, and if the FCC isnt lying, I should be OK with channel 6 DTV reception. But with channel 12, Ill still have to play around with.

Yes, I already cut elements for channel 12s wavelength, and the reception got worse with the correct element length. Some parts of the Gray Hoverman are just counter-intuitive.


----------



## PCTools

I actually thought the system would perform better. Then again, you know how us engineer's are.... Think we can work miracles with this stuff.


Debating about doing a Quad Box stack.


The real thing, is that it will take a boat load of money to make any (if any) improvement of what I have.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *donnyjaguar* /forum/post/13914780
> 
> 
> Nice setup. But tell us how it works!


----------



## ctdish

In my quad stack I found that going to a stripline combiner and Research Communications preamp gave moderate but noticable improvements. The little splitter/combiners have about as much loss as the stacking gain of two antennas.

John


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jcs444* /forum/post/13919595
> 
> 
> I am mounting a homebuilt hoverman with screen in the attic and want to add a set oif rabbit ears on top to pick up a vhf channel better. Should I use an antenna combiner or could I just attach the rabbit ear twinleads onto the same screws as the 300/75 transformer on the hoverman?



Use a combiner.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/13903490
> 
> 
> How about the new CM offering?
> 
> http://www.channelmasterintl.com/2016.html



It has been said that this antenna has already been discussed here. I can't find other references to it in a search. Can someone point me in the right direction? Thanks.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jcs444* /forum/post/13919595
> 
> 
> I am mounting a homebuilt hoverman with screen in the attic and want to add a set oif rabbit ears on top to pick up a vhf channel better. Should I use an antenna combiner or could I just attach the rabbit ear twinleads onto the same screws as the 300/75 transformer on the hoverman?



A VHF/UHF Splitter/Combiner will have less than 0.5 dB loss,

while all-band Splitter/Combiners, as well as standard (cable)

RF Splitter/Combiners have about 3.5-4.0+ dB loss.


You need the low-loss VHF/UHF Combiner that has twin screws for both VHF and UHF:
http://www.summitsource.com/antenna-...06-p-5303.html 
http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PH6100...1573821&sr=8-1 

This one has coax output, which is preferred for downlead.


You'll need a 75-ohm to 300-ohm transformer balun to adapt to twin-lead output.


They used to make devices with twin-lead output, but I haven't found any.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/13925080
> 
> 
> In my quad stack I found that going to a stripline combiner and Research Communications preamp gave moderate but noticable improvements. The little splitter/combiners have about as much loss as the stacking gain of two antennas.
> 
> John



Which stripline coupler are you using and how much did it cost?

The Lindsay couplers seem to have disappeared in the last corporate reorg...


----------



## ctdish

I am using the Lindsay four port UHF combiner. I think it was around $100. After I got mine I saw a post from another AVSer that said that they were discontinued but Lindsay found one left in inventory for him. Unfortunately I have not found anything similar available.

John


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13933546
> 
> 
> Which stripline coupler are you using and how much did it cost?
> 
> The Lindsay couplers seem to have disappeared in the last corporate reorg...



MAXHD has a source that will custom make them for a reasonable price. I saw a pic of one and it looks very similar to the Lindsays.


----------



## cpcat

Combiner pic:


----------



## TheRatPatrol




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/13903490
> 
> 
> How about the new CM offering?
> 
> http://www.channelmasterintl.com/2016.html
> 
> 
> This looks very basic. I have to wonder how effective sweeping the VHF elements forward is in this case.
> 
> 
> I continue to question the value of putting out new designs for UHF 69. Sacrificing performance under 37 doesn't seem like a good idea in the long run.



Does that pick up FM radio as well?


Thanks


----------



## Neil L

The FM radio band is between TV channels 6 and 7, so while the CM is not designed for FM, it doesn't take much antenna to pick up strong signals. For weak and distant FM, you would do better with a dedicated FM antenna, or a VHF/FM antenna.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/13934589
> 
> 
> MAXHD has a source that will custom make them for a reasonable price. I saw a pic of one and it looks very similar to the Lindsays.



Thanks for posting the pic I sent you.Ole Dave says he can make a dual or quad combiner in any frequency range you want.If I get this new tower in the air the next couple of days,I'll try it out and see how it works.

http://www.hamtv.com/oal.html 

[email protected]


----------



## Wireman134




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13933388
> 
> 
> A VHF/UHF Splitter/Combiner will have less than 0.5 dB loss,
> 
> while all-band Splitter/Combiners, as well as standard (cable)
> 
> RF Splitter/Combiners have about 3.5-4.0+ dB loss.
> 
> 
> You need the low-loss VHF/UHF Combiner that has twin screws for both VHF and UHF:
> http://www.summitsource.com/antenna-...06-p-5303.html
> http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PH6100...1573821&sr=8-1
> 
> This one has coax output, which is preferred for downlead.
> 
> 
> You'll need a 75-ohm to 300-ohm transformer balun to adapt to twin-lead output.
> 
> 
> They used to make devices with twin-lead output, but I haven't found any.



Hello, these type of UVSJ also; http://www.summitsource.com/uhfvhf-b...1fdbd68e4a3d67 

and, http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...PROD=HLSJ#MORE 

Baluns are no problem, Menards has them for $1.98 ea.


----------



## 1edmon

Can some one tell me how to contact midwest dxer (max hd) i want to purchase the psp 1922 antenna.After reading many posts i am going with this set up.

uhf 91xg,vhf psp1922,winegard 269 preamp,and pico usjv combiner.

I live in laporte,in. 53 mi. ota to chicago sears tower.Hope to pick up after 2/11/09 all or most chicago dtv channels. am i on the right track with my selections?

Thanks-1edmon


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *1edmon* /forum/post/13943262
> 
> 
> Can some one tell me how to contact midwest dxer (max hd) i want to purchase the psp 1922 antenna.After reading many posts i am going with this set up.
> 
> uhf 91xg,vhf psp1922,winegard 269 preamp,and pico usjv combiner.
> 
> I live in laporte,in. 53 mi. ota to chicago sears tower.Hope to pick up after 2/11/09 all or most chicago dtv channels. am i on the right track with my selections?
> 
> Thanks-1edmon



Scroll up a few posts and drop him a PM.










Consider pre-filtering the psp1922 by using the hi port of a hlsj in addition to using the uvsj to combine the uhf/vhf sections. That way, low band and FM are more completely filtered before amplification.
http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf 


For some reason, I thought I remembered Chicago had a low band digital?


----------



## 1edmon

Thanks cpcat,post 2/11 wbbm will be vhf 7,so i'll be o.k. I kown this sounds stupid but i don't know what pm means.Do you know if max hd has a website?


----------



## 1edmon

I tried the email link but the email was unsucessful.


----------



## 1edmon

Sorry cpcat the light blub just lit up ,i sen max hd a pm(private message)

thanks again


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *1edmon* /forum/post/13943483
> 
> 
> Thanks cpcat,post 2/11 wbbm will be vhf 7,so i'll be o.k. I kown this sounds stupid but i don't know what pm means.Do you know if max hd has a website?



Actually, WBBM-DT 3 is moving to channel 12 and WLS-DT 52 is moving to its analog channel 7.


Steve


----------



## 1edmon

You are correct steve,that's why i'm hoping to get the psp 1922 for vhf 7-12.I have a PM for max hd and am waiting to here from him.I have a question for you ,as per tv fool the recommened height for wbbm is 45' all other dtv channels are from 20 to 30 ', i plan to go 30' do you think i would be out of luck for wbbm (2.1)?I'm going to use the winegard hdp 269 preamp.My set up will be 91xg uhf,psp1922 vhf,pico uvsj combiner.

Thanks-Ed


----------



## cpcat

I think you'll pro'ly be fine but you just never really know 'til you try.


----------



## Konrad2

"More than half of over-the-air (OTA) TV viewers nationwide

live in areas where reception of DTV signals will be

challenging, according to new research from Centris."

http://broadcastengineering.com/hdtv...0411/?cid=top5 

http://www.centris.com/pages/ViewNew...ID=34&SiteID=9


----------



## holl_ands

The Centris study was debunked back in February, which it first came out:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=13133695 


Results are bogus, since Centris used antennaweb.org to predict reception, which

many posters on this thread have found seriously UNDERPREDICTS reception.


andy.s.lee conducted a much more believable study:
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...ask=view&id=50


----------



## fbov

We talked about the Centris study a bunch when it came out. There are systematic issues with it's sampling methodology that make its predictions questionable. You can't use it for any positive purpose here.

Frank


----------



## pixelation

I have an old antenna on my roof which has 2 pairs of 300 ohm attachments. Which I believe is VHF and UHF. My TV of course take only a single 75 ohm source. How should I combine the 300 ohms signals?


----------



## The Hound

See post #7322.


----------



## pixelation

Thanks. Is it suitable for out door use? What is inside the box?


My twin-lead wires are kind of old and I am concerned about interference. I want to replace them with a coax. Does it make sense for me to combine the twin-leads together and connect them into this?

http://www.summitsource.com/outdoor-...09-p-4847.html


----------



## The Hound

Sure you could scrap the twin lead.

Get 2 baluns run the coax inside use a combiner or combine outside and run one coax to the set.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pixelation* /forum/post/13951332
> 
> 
> I have an old antenna on my roof which has 2 pairs of 300 ohm attachments. Which I believe is VHF and UHF. My TV of course take only a single 75 ohm source. How should I combine the 300 ohms signals?



Use a pair of 300-ohm to 75-ohm Balun Transformers...one for VHF and one for UHF.

A pair of coax runs connect to UVSJ low-loss VHF/UHF Combiner and then coax downlead:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=UVSJ 
http://www.summitsource.com/uhfvhf-b...sj-p-6976.html 


Be sure to use waterproof sealer on all connections.


Alternatively, if you don't have any "nearby" towers, use a Preamp with separate

UHF and VHF inputs instead. Choice of preamp depends on distance to towers...


====================================

PS: Solution for jcs444 (post #7322) was for ATTIC use, presuming coax or twin-lead output.


----------



## pixelation

I don't want to sound like a jerk. Can it be made simpler?


What I am trying to minimize is the number of connections and cables. If I go with the above plan, I would need 2 Balun Transformers, 3 segments of coax cables and a water proof VHF/UHF combiner.


The transformer and (twin-lead) combiner cost just $0.69 and $0.49 respectively. Whats inside them?


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13949693
> 
> 
> The Centris study was debunked back in February, which it first came out:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=13133695
> 
> 
> Results are bogus, since Centris used antennaweb.org to predict reception, which
> 
> many posters on this thread have found seriously UNDERPREDICTS reception.
> 
> 
> andy.s.lee conducted a much more believable study:
> http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...ask=view&id=50



And even the TVFool data seems to be too conservative in my particular case. I recently aimed a 91XG with no amplification and about 125' of RG-6 into a tower farm in Austin, 60 miles away. The TVFool info reports the digital signals from these six stations as ranging from -102 to -111 dBm at an antenna elevation of 13' AGL. Five of these six stations come in with a very strong, clear signal -- better than the compressed signal I get from D* -- and the last station (the one at -111) occasionally stutters and pixelates a little but is also usually a better picture than the D* feed.


Based on the TVFool info, I was being told not to get my hopes up much, but what I'm getting blows my mind.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The TVFool info reports the digital signals from these six stations as ranging from -102 to -111 dBm at an antenna elevation of 13' AGL. Five of these six stations come in with a very strong, clear signal -- better than the compressed signal I get from D* -- and the last station (the one at -111) occasionally stutters and pixelates a little but is also usually a better picture than the D* feed.



Yep, just about the same thing for me. I also have stations in an antenna farm 60.8 miles away, ranging from -81.1dBm to -115dBm. All better than -106.0dBm come in strong and consistant. The lone -115dBm station only rarely locks on. (It will be -100.2dBm after 2/19/09 so no problem). This is with my non-amp DBGH with 300ohm downlead and balun on the end.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pixelation* /forum/post/13955591
> 
> 
> I don't want to sound like a jerk. Can it be made simpler?
> 
> 
> What I am trying to minimize is the number of connections and cables. If I go with the above plan, I would need 2 Balun Transformers, 3 segments of coax cables and a water proof VHF/UHF combiner.
> 
> 
> The transformer and (twin-lead) combiner cost just $0.69 and $0.49 respectively. Whats inside them?



A VHF/UHF Combiner would have inductors and capacitors inside,

which can degrade/change frequency if they get moist.


I haven't seen any claims re whether Philips PH-61006 (aka CV72) is intended

for outdoor use. Perhaps you can check the bubble pack when you find one.


FYI: Radio Shack makes a similar unit:
http://www.radioshack.com/sm-300-ohm...i-2062060.html 

Since they don't mark it for outdoor use, it's probably indoor only.


What I described above using OUTDOOR components will survive the elements

through multiple seasons....a cheap indoor alternative could rapidly degrade...

The UVSJ actually has low insertion loss SPECS....the first sign of a quality product.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Blackduck* /forum/post/13918024
> 
> 
> After a week or so, how do you feel about your new system in comparison to your old VU-190? Walter



Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to study normal reception since I wrote my original posting because I left on a trip a couple days afterward. I'm on the road right now, so further reports will have to wait until after I return home.


I can add that the night before I left, a storm front moved through which greatly enhanced propagation from the northeast for several hours. All the Charlotte-area stations came in unusually strongly, and I was able to watch four stations from the Greensboro NC area (about 150 miles) whose digital signals I had never seen before: WGHP, WXLV, WCWG, and one whose call letters I've forgotten. I managed to record snippets of them, so eventually I'll create a DX section on my Web page (referenced below) and put screenshots there.


----------



## 1edmon

I would appreciate some advice and input on how best to install these two antennas.Top antenna is a xg91uhf (8' boom), uderneath a funke psp1922 vhf

(13' boom)I realy can't afford a tower so I need some advice on how best to do it.I am attaching some pictures of my house(i hope) The peak to ground is approx.20'.The chimney is approx.the same.So it's ether side of house or chimney.Thanks -Ed


----------



## Falcon_77

South Bend should be ENE from Laporte. I'm assuming the satellite dish is on the South side, but it's not clear if the other two pictures show the East side of the house.


With these antennas, you probably will want to DX? So perhaps the side of the house doesn't matter anyway.


----------



## PCTools

Ed,


I would check around and see if you can locate some used tower. In today's age, I have found it pretty easy to find it.


As for a new tower, I would call around and get some prices. Not many people are purchasing towers with unemployment at record levels (OH, MI), that installers are willing to shave a couple of bucks of their rate. However, the materials are expensive (tower).


Let us know what you think...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *1edmon* /forum/post/13972678
> 
> 
> I would appreciate some advice and input on how best to install these two antennas.Top antenna is a xg91uhf (8' boom), uderneath a funke psp1922 vhf
> 
> (13' boom)I realy can't afford a tower so I need some advice on how best to do it.I am attaching some pictures of my house(i hope) The peak to ground is approx.20'.The chimney is approx.the same.So it's ether side of house or chimney.Thanks -Ed


----------



## 1edmon

Falcon I already get so.bend with a DB4 mounted in the attic,this setup is for chicago W.N.W.Thanks also Rick and pctools.I have a guy coming out this morning for a tower quote.If it's to high I'll have to go to plan B .Thanks again-1edmon


----------



## 1edmon

P.S.

Falcon that dish you see is not in use,had Direct tv for 5 yrs. I am now going to be a O.T.A GUY ONLY.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13975901
> 
> 
> check around and see if you can locate some used tower. In today's age, I have found it pretty easy to find.



Good advice. That is what I did. Found my 40ft tower standing on the site of an empty commercial building. Asked the owner if I could have it, and he said sure. So we took it down, and moved it to my house. Only cost the time to take it down, and put it back up, and about $50 for some new hardware and paint (it was knda rusty, so we sanded it down and painted it to match the green metal roof on the house).


----------



## PCTools

Nice...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/13977627
> 
> 
> Good advice. That is what I did. Found my 40ft tower standing on the site of an empty commercial building. Asked the owner if I could have it, and he said sure. So we took it down, and moved it to my house. Only cost the time to take it down, and put it back up, and about $50 for some new hardware and paint (it was knda rusty, so we sanded it down and painted it to match the green metal roof on the house).


----------



## bozey45

to 1edmon, the end of my house like yours with that high apex. My 30ft. telescoping mast is at the 12 ft. level of the rise of the apex by a bedroom window. I have 17 or so feet above the roof line where a 91XG is at the top. Soon I'll be adding a VHF antenna to this set-up. Mine is bolted to the eave and has two large size mounts into the side of the house; one is into the concrete block and the other is into the attic to a 2X4--the outside is just stucco over wall board so the antenna mount goes into an attic 2X4. The bottom 15 inches of mast is in concrete. It's all grounded to a grounding block and ground rod. soon I'll have additional height when a rotor is added. So your house is similar to mine looks like. Setups will be similar but I haven't decided on a VHF antenna yet.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *1edmon* /forum/post/13972678
> 
> 
> I would appreciate some advice and input on how best to install these two antennas.Thanks -Ed





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/13974023
> 
> 
> side mount on tallest side of the home on the left of the first picture . support the structure with emt conduit for added stability like in picture instead of guy wires ...at the peak. The emt gives you something to hold onto and lean against while you are working up there.
> 
> 
> make sure you have something sturdy to bold into on the side of the home. sometimes those peaks are prefab with not much sturdy inside. I use pressure treated 2"x12" or there abouts lag bolted to the studs and mount the bracket over that.



I couldn't see Rick's pic very well, but I'd assume something similar to this:


30 CM foot telescoping mast resting on concrete or a suitable footer


Wall mounts x 2 on the way up strapping to the house


Eave mount at the apex for further strapping


I used a PVC pipe cap on the bottom of the mast (with a hole drilled in the bottom for drainage) just to keep the mast from resting directly on the footer/concrete.










I also installed the mast upside down (thickest at the top) for added stiffness where it counts.


----------



## 1edmon

bozey45,that sounds like a plan.That 1st. picture,the one with the grill,is the side of the house facing west towards chicago.So what I would do is sink the mast into 2' of concrete and bolt it to the wall w/4" hvy.duty wall mounts spaced approx. 7' apart and bolted w/carrage bolts that will go through 2x4 backing in the attic.My question is what gage,dia and size telescoping mast did you use and where did you get it.With this set up I would have about 7' to 8' above the roof peak.The last mount would be right under the peak.


----------



## 1edmon

cpcat you replied while I was typing,that's a good hint on caping the bottom with a weep hole.As i mentioned got to find out were to purchase mast.


----------



## cpcat

This looks like what I used. Lowe's used to carry it but I'm not sure if they still do.

http://www.weisd.com/store2/CM%201630.html


----------



## 1edmon

Thank's cpcat and all you guys for your advice,looks like i'm going to use a telescope mast to to ground and mount it to the side of the house. I just got my xg91 delivered today,got a call from MAX HD,I'll be getting my funke psp1922 tues.I'm off to lowes and menards to see if I can get mast local,if not will order from wholesale electronics.

Thanks again


----------



## sparkman386

Hi Guys, I was wondering if anyone can share some real world performance experience with the 91XG. I am considering getting one at some point mainly for DX work as well as local. This thing sounds on paper, but I would like some user input. I live in a 2nd floor apt approx 12ft AGL and have an exsiting antenna on 20ft mast on my balcony with marginal to fair results. Any and all input would be appreciated.

Thanks


----------



## ctdish

What kind of antenna are you using now?

You can see how it did against a few other antennas here. Download Bob Chase's report.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ctdish&page=93 


John


----------



## Robert SawyerIII

Holl_ands...


how was NAB, any news about Antennas Directs CEA909A antennas (or even other vendors?)


----------



## DrBri99

Is a manual antenna rotator commercially available?


I've been using my digital tuner for about 3 months, and I'm realizing I would only need to use a rotator when the weather is great (i.e. good tropo), and a distant station interferes with a low powered local station.


----------



## 300ohm

By manual, do you mean turning the antenna pole by hand ?


Not that Im aware of, but you can make it yourself. Pound a pole in the ground that is slightly less than the ID of the antenna mast. Then have the antenna supported by guy wires connected to the ground and to a guy wire ring high up on the mast. You can then turn the mast by hand. By drilling holes in various points near the bottom of the mast and pole, you can create the mast lock in your commonly used positions.


----------



## ctdish

I don't want to start a flame war here but I would have to disagree with this outlook on testing. First the response I gave was for real world results for the 91xg. I don't consider computer simulations "real world".

As far as which is more accurate simulation or testing either can be done completely wrong or get accurate results. Computer modeling requires complex software and a detailed physical description of the antenna. These are approximations to the real world but can give useful results. The gold standard of antenna performance measurement has always been on a controlled antenna test range. Bob's test while not on a range was close enough to the transmitters so propagation was not time varying and he had access to test equipment that most of can not afford that is necessary to see signal levels accurately. He did not measure the gain of the antennas but did provide information to accurately see the gain differences between the tested antennas. And while he did not measure gain at every channel he did have measurements on many channels spread over the TV bands.

For most locations selecting any of the higher rated antennas that cover the channels needed will produce results that will be OK. In most weaker locations propagation variations will be much bigger than the gain differences in antennas.

John


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/13992430
> 
> 
> I do not see much merit in those kind of point and shoot antenna testing results.
> 
> 
> Doubt that there is an accurate antenna test doing it this way.
> 
> 
> Computer simulation range testing is more accurate I was told. Can you even trust those kinds of tests???
> 
> 
> You do not need meters or tests...Just select from the top couple uhf antennas and pick one. cm4228 and 91xg.
> 
> 
> If you have multipath or want to stack antennas select the 91xg. all the other uhf antennas out there perform worse. It is really just that simple.


----------



## DrBri99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/13995205
> 
> 
> By manual, do you mean turning the antenna pole by hand ?
> 
> 
> Not that Im aware of, but you can make it yourself. Pound a pole in the ground that is slightly less than the ID of the antenna mast. Then have the antenna supported by guy wires connected to the ground and to a guy wire ring high up on the mast. You can then turn the mast by hand. By drilling holes in various points near the bottom of the mast and pole, you can create the mast lock in your commonly used positions.



Yes I would like to turn it by hand. I have the antenna eave mounted, and I can get directly beneath it by opening a window which leads to the porch roof. I guess I could make one by placing something on the porch roof to hold the mast.


----------



## jsauser11

I am looking for some advice. I currently have a DB-8 mounted on the chimney, and it is picking up the Denver locals from Lookout Mountain well. At the digital transition date, two of the locals are moving back to VHF High (channel 7 and channel 9). I am worried my DB-8 is going to have a difficult time picking them up noise free at that time. I noticed that the Channel Master 8 bay bow tie has better gain in the VHF High band because of it's single piece back reflector. I was wondering if I joined the separate back reflectors of the DB-8 if it might improve the gain and reception in the VHF portion of the band I am looking for post transition? Any ideas or guidance would be very appreciated, as I am hoping to avoid having to mount both a DB-8 and a VHF antenna on mast and rotator.


My setup also includes a CM-7777 preamp.


Thanks,

Jeff


----------



## willscary

I live within distance of two different markets. The main market antenna farm is 37 miles away. I live on the back side of a hill and need to be 35' above ground to have a clear line of sight to the towers. All are within 7 degrees of eachother. Currently, I have an Antennacraft MXU-59 hanging in the attic. With a CM amp, I have a 80' RG6 cable run to a 2 way splitter. From there, another 20' to each TV. The second antenna farm is 230 degrees from the first, 62 miles away and can be picked up by the attic mounted MXU-59 at night. If I rotate the antenna to face these antennas, I get excellent reception on a 2 skip path at all times of the day. I can see clearly in that direction for over 10 miles.


I get very good reception with an occasional late afternoon dropout period on a few of the weaker channels. I have been planning a 40' tower, but I live near the top of the hill and all of my trees around the house are either lightning damaged or have been destroyed by damage, including one last year.


I am considering buying a pair of 4228s and mounting them on the outside face of the exterior walls. The local antenna farm is due east of me (90 degrees plus or minus 4 degrees) with the top of the hill directly in its path. I could mount this antenna right under the eave on the east wall of the house. I could then mount the other antenna on the same place on the west wall, but angle it north by 50 degrees to get the second market stations.


Are there adverse effects of mounting antennas on a wall? I am hoping that this would minimize any multipath and front to rear problems and I could then combine the two antennas without the normal interference. Will this work? Wind and lightning would be less of a problem (I would think!) and the house would hopefully block signals from the rear of each antenna.


Another thought...could I then remove the screen from behind the elements? Would the house do a better job ar rejecting signals from the rear? (especially if the elements were mounted nearly directly to the house!!????)


Please comment!


Bill


----------



## fbov

Bill,

I always recommend doing as little as necessary, and if the MXU-59 is fine for one antenna farm, aim it there and be done with it, so you can focus on what you need to receive the other antenna farm reliably.


For the other farm, an external wall mounting would improve on the other antenna's attic performance, and a multi-bay array like the CM4228 is better-suited to wall mounting than a Yagi. You'll need another pre-amp, but between the two, the 3-4dB combiner loss will be trivial. I would leave the reflector on even if mounting directly to a metal building because reflector spacing affects frequency gain.


I hope this helps,

Frank


----------



## willscary

Frank,


Thanks for the reply! The reason i was thinking of a pair of 4 bays is because I thought that perhaps the outside mount would be better than the attic mount. Right now I get a late afternoon dropout here and there, but it is not good when it is during a race or ballgame.


I have really been planning a tower. It would be great to have one, and my wife doesn't mind, but I AM worried about lightning. I figured the 4 bay would be mounted about 24' above ground, the same height as the MXU-59 in the attic, but it would not be shooting through vinyl siding, 2" insulation, 1-1/4" of 100 yr old wood siding and sheathing, plus the studs and rafters on a very old dutch colonial.


I had planned on joining the two in the attic (a pair of 12' runs), then an amp for the 80' to the splitter in the basement.


I like the MXU-59s. They are flimsy, but in the attic, who cares?? Will the 4 bay give me about the same performance? If I mount it on the exterior wall, will it be better or will the house wall come into play and wreak havok with the signal? If I leave the screen on, will it work just as if it was mast mounted at the same height, or will it be better because of a huge signal drop from confilcting stations from the rear?


Thanks again,


Bill


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/13996989
> 
> 
> CT
> 
> 
> No pissing match is wanted nor is it necessary.
> 
> 
> a computer simulation on a controlled test range is the conventional way to test/measure an antenna...like it or not.
> 
> 
> unfortunately to my embassassment , it was explained that real world testing of antennas are not considered an accurate means of testing an antenna. Computer simulation on a range is how antennas are to be tested.
> 
> 
> what you described in your explanation is exactly why those sorts of tests should be taken with a grain of salt. Any individual any place in the world can put up and test a handful of antennas, under their own "controlled environment" and say one antenna is better than another with their meter. Real world testing as you explain it. Isnt that what we all do here...one way or another.
> 
> 
> Antenna analysis is far from an exact science. real world testing does not get you closer...to exact.



ILLR ITM (Individual Location Longley-Rice Irregular Terrain Model) used by

FCC/NTIA, Antennaweb.org, TVFool, Radio Mobile, Splat!, et. al. is a

mix of Line-of-Sight (with ground bounce), Single Knife Edge Diffraction

and Multiple Diffraction models melded into a statistical signal strength

data base (dating back as much as 50-60 years). The stats can vary

quite a bit depending on percentage of Locations and Time you chose:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...0&d=1195561571 

The inherent "sigma" is on the order of 6 to 10 dB (or more), depending

on whose comparison report you read last....give or take uncertainties wrt

ground bounce gain, clutter loss, desensitization due to VSWR mismatch,

tree loss, backscatter/sidescatter and other uncertainties.....


I know what an antenna test range test is, e.g. Kerry Cozad's test results:
http://www.dielectric.com/broadcast/...ntennas%20.pdf 
https://secure.connect.pbs.org/confe...ns/TC05_43.htm 

But results can be significantly influenced by constructive/destructive

effects of the ground bounce component....as you raise/lower antenna to

find the "sweet spot" for each test frequency....

RF absorbing material can suppress ground bounce, but is ineffective at VHF.

[And I doubt ANY was employed in Kerry Cozad's OUTDOOR test range....]

[Indoor RF anechoic chambers for UHF are rather large...and VHF are truly HUGE!!!!]

Or use high TX/RX test locations (e.g. hill top to hill top).


NEC computer simulations (IN FREE SPACE) are typically used to derive

manufacturer's spec sheet data (when they dare to)...and fol. results:
www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/comparing.html 

But results are different when the antenna is mounted within a few feet

of your rooftop....or in an attic....or anywhere near other buildings....

Not too mention the simplifications in most of these models.....


I know NEC can be used to model antennas in "real" environments, which

is usually limited to HF band (and maybe a simplified VHF scenario)

due to simulation complexity.

For VHF/UHF you would need to model yours & many of your neighbors roofs,

joist nail plates, plumbing, A/C equipment, interior wiring, antennas,

metal gutters, et. al....whatever diffracts/reflects RF energy....


So what the heck is a "computer simulation on a range"?????

Is it anything like live motion capture animation????

Or a Hybrid mix of reality and computer simuation....like ROGER RABBIT????


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *willscary* /forum/post/13998487
> 
> 
> Will the 4 bay give me about the same performance? If I mount it on the exterior wall, will it be better or will the house wall come into play and wreak havok with the signal?



The 4 bays will work fine mounted near a wall. You can aim two of them in different directions. You may find it hard to combine them. If you are lucky a splitter used backwards will work. You could have an A/B switch, or a system of Jointennas.


I wouldn't buy a tower until you found that the wall mounted antennas didn't work.


----------



## holl_ands

So exactly WHAT is the computer "simulating"?????


----------



## johnied




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/14000414
> 
> 
> So exactly WHAT is the computer "simulating"?????




RF and its interaction with the antenna



John.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/14000272
> 
> 
> A computer simulation on a controlled test range is the conventional way to test/measure an antenna.



It's an oxymoron. That is, a contradiction in terms. Why would a simulation (which can exist entirely in the "virtual" world of a computer algorithm) need to done on a test range (something that is very much part of the "real" world)?


Guys (and gals) that design antennas for a living use both tools. Computer simulation to arrive at an optimized design and then range testing of a prototype to verify the simulation.


In this day and age, antennas are quite well understood. Don't confuse antenna design with overall system design that includes the huge variable (at least for terrestrial links) known as "propagation".


Ron


----------



## dr1394

A pretty cool animation:

http://math.ucr.edu/~jdp/Relativity/EM_Propagation.html 


Ron


----------



## NightHawk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/14002257
> 
> 
> It's an oxymoron. That is, a contradiction in terms. Why would a simulation (which can exist entirely in the "virtual" world of a computer algorithm) need to done on a test range (something that is very much part of the "real" world)?
> 
> 
> Guys (and gals) that design antennas for a living use both tools. Computer simulation to arrive at an optimized design and then range testing of a prototype to verify the simulation.
> 
> 
> In this day and age, antennas are quite well understood. Don't confuse antenna design with overall system design that includes the huge variable (at least for terrestrial links) known as "propagation".
> 
> 
> Ron



Exactly correct. As a former emplyee of the US Navy's outdoor antenna test range at Patuxent River I would have to completely agree.


----------



## Tower Guy

Computer simulation of an antenna is the fastest way to optimize a design. An antenna designer may optimize forward gain, front to back ratio, and input impedance without actually building or measuring anything.


The demo program that can be downloaded from the following web site is sufficient to model some of the TV antennas that are commonly used.
http://www.eznec.com/ 


The limitations of EZNEC is that is cannot model irregular terrain in front of the antenna. Software that can be used to evaluate terrain is described here:
http://www.arrl.org/notes/9876/HFTA.pdf Terrian modeling is more useful on VHF than UHF.


None of the software accounts for foliage.


Bottom line, use the software to compare antennas and optimize antenna heights, but be aware that the software doesn't account for all variables.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/14002926
> 
> 
> sorry really should have said...a computer subsystem added to the instrumentation to automate the entire measurement process in a controlled environment.
> 
> 
> input impedance
> 
> polarization
> 
> directivity
> 
> gain
> 
> radiation efficiency
> 
> radiation pattern
> 
> etc.
> 
> 
> you can not achieve a controlled environment at "home".
> 
> -there are so many variables.
> 
> -the choice of channels to test are different in different markets
> 
> -similar antennas perform differently on different channels
> 
> -conditions change from second to second
> 
> -the antennas need to be mounted at the exact same place, same height, and you need to aim exactly the same.
> 
> -etc. etc.
> 
> 
> the cm 4228, for example, may work great at joe's house 8 miles from the towers and crappy across town at rick's house the same distance from towers...because the variables at their homes are different. even if they used the same equipment to measure.
> 
> 
> Reception and antennas are not an exact science. if you want high performance you select from the appropriate antennas at the top end of the tier and go from there. the top performing uhf antennas are cm4228 and 91 xg, for example. they would perform about the same relatively speaking. It all depends on the variables at your home...a zillion of them...of which antenna would work best.
> 
> 
> therefore those kinds of tests as mention above should be questioned (at bob's house 8 miles from towers). I prefer reading results from a controlled environment...antenna testing range variety assisted with a computer subsystem with the best professional equipment available.



I would have understood better if you had said "Automated Data Acquisition System".


The only "simulation" seems to be approximating an actual TV signal

via an unmodulated swept RF carrier.


NEC simulations, Range Tests and PPP (Propagation Prediction Programs) each

have a valuable piece of information to contribute....and real world test results

are also extremely valuable. We need MORE on-air comparison tests like Bob Chase's.


REALITY is the best Simulation....


----------



## NightHawk

If you have access to a spectrum analyzer and a pre-amp you could measure the _real world_ gain of any UHF antenna using the sun. That would take many of the local error sources like terrain and trees out of the measurement.


----------



## DrLar

OMG!!!


I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but in the antennasdirect.com manual for installing antennas, it has this warning:



> Quote:
> WARNING
> 
> Do not attempt to install if drunk, pregnant or both.
> 
> Do not eat antenna.
> 
> Do not throw antenna at spouse.



Source: http://www.antennasdirect.com/pdf/ge...structions.pdf 


Man I was taking those instructions seriously until the last minute..


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NightHawk* /forum/post/14004167
> 
> 
> If you have access to a spectrum analyzer and a pre-amp you could measure the _real world_ gain of any UHF antenna using the sun. That would take many of the local error sources like terrain and trees out of the measurement.



Local TV signals would swamp any signals coming from the sun....fortunately....

otherwise we would ALL be watching the "SUN" channel.


----------



## mlmahon

Wow, with all of this information overload, we should all be antenna design engineers by the end of the week.


----------



## strudel.chris




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DrLar* /forum/post/14005844
> 
> 
> OMG!!!
> 
> 
> I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but in the antennasdirect.com manual for installing antennas, it has this warning:
> 
> Source: http://www.antennasdirect.com/pdf/ge...structions.pdf
> 
> Man I was taking those instructions seriously until the last minute..




HA HA HA HA HA!!!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DrBri99* /forum/post/13997042
> 
> 
> Yes I would like to turn it by hand. I have the antenna eave mounted, and I can get directly beneath it by opening a window which leads to the porch roof. I guess I could make one by placing something on the porch roof to hold the mast.



That sounds like a good situation for "manual" rotor. What you need is something on the porch to serve as a pivot and a lock for the mast (or mast extension). Then you can loosen the eave mount clamps slightly so turning would be possible.

Good Luck.


----------



## NightHawk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/14006014
> 
> 
> Local TV signals would swamp any signals coming from the sun....fortunately....
> 
> otherwise we would ALL be watching the "SUN" channel.



Not really. Unless the local signals are strong enough to saturate the pre-amp(s), with the antenna aimed at the sun, the choice of analyzer settings can prevent their interference. Specifically, attention to the choice of frequency and RBW on the analyzer is made to prevent this. Since the sun is a broadband noise source whose value is measured everyday it makes an excellent calibrated point source and analyzer RBW does not affect the results (other than mentioned to prevent interference). I perform this measurement often using UHF and VHF parabolas and it's quite accurate.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jsauser11* /forum/post/13997202
> 
> 
> two of the locals are moving back to VHF High (channel 7 and channel 9). I am worried my DB-8 is going to have a difficult time picking them up noise free at that time.



How do the current analog signals look on ch 7 and 9?


----------



## jsauser11




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/14015578
> 
> 
> How do the current analog signals look on ch 7 and 9?



Channel 9 analog looks fine. Channel 7 is just ok, with some horizontal noise bars across the screen.


----------



## alphanguy

My XG-91 is performing quite well... but in my situation, I'd like to get more signal and have things be more stable.... so I've decided to stack 2 of them. What is the criteria one uses to decide if you stack vertically or horizonatally?


----------



## Neil L

Vertical stack will narrow the vertical gain pattern, while a horizontal stack will narrow the gain field horizontally. In most cases horizontal will yield a little better results. What will work even better, is to get you antenna in a position where there is more signal. That usually mean either higher, or a different location where the signal is hotter.


----------



## Turbulent

Can someone recommend an antenna based on the pic below? I want to be able to view all the stations, but am unsure which one I need..


Thanks,

Tony


----------



## ziggy29

Tony,


What's your ZIP code? I'd like to plug it into TVFool since the AntennaWeb site tends to be way too conservative about what you can receive.


----------



## PCTools

I tested it both ways, and horizontal stacking yielded better results. If you decide to drive forward with this, just shoot me a PM, and I can go over the process.


Go here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post13898183 


Quote:

Originally Posted by *alphanguy* 
My XG-91 is performing quite well... but in my situation, I'd like to get more signal and have things be more stable.... so I've decided to stack 2 of them. What is the criteria one uses to decide if you stack vertically or horizonatally?

 

The Bracket.pdf 423.40625k . file


----------



## fbov

Well, Tony, the color coding is described at the antennaweb site
http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/info.as...more_info#mark 


You then have to look for UHF vs VHF stations and find that VHF only needs yellow, but UHF needs red. That's about all you get from antennaweb - small multi-directional VHF plus a small directional UHF antenna outdoors. All antennas have the little color wheels, and you can make a choice based on that.


If, however, you posted the results from TVFool.com, you'll find a lot more detail and precision because the modeling is more sophisticated. It doesn't sell antennas, it gives you a rational basis for choosing one.


Frank


----------



## PCTools

Midwest users, this will be a great weekend for some DX'ing. I have not seen the map light up like this in years.


Check here: http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo.html 


And by the way, it was a night and day difference using the Funke 1922 over the Winegard 1731. Holy Cow, I might buy another one from Greg!


----------



## Turbulent




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ziggy29* /forum/post/14019754
> 
> 
> Tony,
> 
> 
> What's your ZIP code? I'd like to plug it into TVFool since the AntennaWeb site tends to be way too conservative about what you can receive.




My zip is 79416. I went to the tvfool website, and all of my channels are green or yellow. It said something about a medium gain antenna would get these channels. The antenna will go outside the house, attached to the eve of the house or the fireplace. It is a single story house. Do I have to worry about zeroing in an antenna to the tower, like you do with a satellite dish?


Thanks for all the help!

Tony


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Turbulent* /forum/post/14019912
> 
> 
> My zip is 79416.



We should all have it this easy!


I think a small to medium directional antenna that gets high VHF and UHF, with no amplification, would be enough. Get one with a relatively wide beam width (30-40 degrees or more) aimed at about 130 degrees and you should be good to go.


----------



## Turbulent




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ziggy29* /forum/post/14019979
> 
> 
> We should all have it this easy!
> 
> 
> I think a small to medium directional antenna that gets high VHF and UHF, with no amplification, would be enough. Get one with a relatively wide beam width (30-40 degrees or more) aimed at about 130 degrees and you should be good to go.



Got any recommendations for a good antenna that fits this? How do I aim it at 130 degrees?


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Turbulent* /forum/post/14020604
> 
> 
> Got any recommendations for a good antenna that fits this? How do I aim it at 130 degrees?



I don't know too much about this class of antenna from personal experience, so I'd leave that for others who do. I think a single medium directional antenna that gets both UHF and high VHF is fine in your case, since these signals are strong enough that you don't need to maximize gain. I'd start by keeping it as simple as possible in your case; I see no need to spend a LOT of time and money on getting the "just right" setup when your information indicates that an adequate single UHF/VHF antenna pointed in the right place with no preamp is likely sufficient. In your case, don't let pursuit of the perfect be the enemy of the "good enough." You have a lot of strong signals, all of which are in the same general direction.


"Aim it at about 130" means that you point the antenna in the direction where front of the antenna points to 130 degrees azimuth. 0 is north, 90 is due east, 180 is due south and 270 is due west, so you'd be basically pointing it to the southeast.


All of your signals are between about 111 and 141 in azimuth (see the TVFool output), meaning they are all to your southeast. That's a 30 degree band. So if you get a medium directional with more than 30 degrees of beam width (that is, it's good at picking up a signal within a 30 degree arc or more) and point the antenna toward somewhere in the middle of the 111-141 range, you should be able to get just about everything listed in green and yellow. Fine-tuning it in that general direction, preferably with a helper to shout out the signal strengths from various directions and for VHF/UHF) will make it much easier.


You don't really need a compass to aim it exactly at 130 or anything else. But if you know generally which way is due southeast, you'll be close and can swivel it a little bit until you have good digital reception on everything. It's not nearly as exact as aligning a satellite dish.


----------



## Turbulent

Thanks for the help Ziggy. Ive had cable/satellite all of my life and have never used an antenna before.


Ive been eyeballing this antenna http://channelmasterstore.com/Channe...B000BSFK7Y.htm with this new information. Does anyone have an opinion on this and my specific area? Or would this be a good matchup?


----------



## gcd0865

Hi All:


Just found out that I will have a future digital VHF channel 6 about 51 miles away over rather flat land. I have two identical 25-year-old Radio Shack FM-only yagi antennas (the larger of the two long-discontinued models, 10 or 12 elements, I think). They are essentially brand-new, as they have always only been used in the attic, and they provided good FM reception (prior to digital FM hiss splatter) for stations 75+ miles away.


I realize that the FM band (88-108 MHz) is a little off from VHF channel 6 (82-88 MHz), and of course it will depend on the power of the digital channel 6. But with no other VHF-low channels coming to my area, I was wondering if an FM-only yagi of this sort could possibly work well as a single-channel antenna for this future channel 6.


Thanks in advance...


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gcd0865* /forum/post/14022163
> 
> 
> I realize that the FM band (88-108 MHz) is a little off from VHF channel 6 (82-88 MHz), and of course it will depend on the power of the digital channel 6. But with no other VHF-low channels coming to my area, I was wondering if an FM-only yagi of this sort could possibly work well as a single-channel antenna for this future channel 6.



Most likely an FM yagi would have some gain for channel 6. But my concern is that FM interference would overwhelm channel 6.


If there was a chance to return it if it didn't work, it might be interesting to get a VHF preamp with an FM trap for this one. You might need a preamp from 51 miles out anyway, depending on the gain of the antenna, and maybe the FM trap could attenuate the signals from 88-108 MHz. I don't know how well it would work, but it would be an interesting experiment...


----------



## Splicer010

100% agree with ziggy...


----------



## holl_ands

Brian Breezley (K6STI) NEC simulation results for FM Antennas:
http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/curves.htm 
http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/index.html 

[Also includes HD Radio Receiver reviews, et. al.....]


Since an FM antenna has already been optimized to cover the 20 MHz wide FM Band,

VSWR and hence gain are gonna nosedive as you try to go down yet another 6 MHz.

So try to extrapolate where you think the gain curve will be a couple inches to the left...

Some are pretty good....others are really bad....


PS: In addition to gain loss, VSWR mis-match can result in ADDITIONAL DTV sensitivity loss

(in below papers, Oded Bendov calls it an increase in Noise Figure):
http://www.tvantenna.tv/papers/dtv%2...prediction.pdf 
http://www.tvantenna.tv/papers/PFactorsV.pdf


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/14023298
> 
> 
> Since an FM antenna has already been optimized to cover the 20 MHz wide FM Band, VSWR and hence gain are gonna nosedive as you try to go down yet another 6 MHz. So try to extrapolate where you think the gain curve will be a couple inches to the left...Some are pretty good....others are really bad....



Right, and agreed. But unless we know the specifics of this antenna, we don't know if it's one that plummets quickly below 88 MHz. So I still say if someone felt confident that they could return a preamp with FM trap if it fails to work and they don't mind the labor, it's worth trying, most likely. If it's an antenna with significant gain from 82-88 MHz, it may work well. If it's one that drops off sharply below 88, maybe not. Without knowing the specific antenna, it's hard to say.


[Edit to add: Plus, there's a decent chance between now and 2/2009, some low VHF stations will be reassigned elsewhere since pretty much all stations now assigned to low VHF are trying to move. I wouldn't spend much money or effort trying to get stations that *might* be on low VHF next year until I knew it was a done deal. If we get to December and the channel hasn't changed, it might be time to make the investment.]


----------



## johnied

If you already have the antennas i would see how they worked out.

I wouldnt put a ton of effort into them.. but hey see what you got.


If not then get a VHF low band yagi.


John


----------



## Neil L

A couple of years ago, I had a FM yagi that I wasn't using so I had the same idea, only I was looking at receiving a channel 5 from 70 miles away. I thought that since Yagi antennas drop off in gain more gradually below the design frequency that above, it might work. It didn't. Reception of that channel is usually fairly good here with a wide band VHF antenna, but the FM just didn't produce anything on channel 5.


----------



## fbov

Or, spend some time on the antenna making thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...798265&page=10 

and find some neat ideas for cheap-but-effective VHF bowtie antennas.

Frank


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13703174
> 
> 
> You could also try a simple UHF loop: http://www.cnaweb.com/index.asp?Page...OD&ProdID=1843



Holl_ands, what would be the technical difference as an indoor aerial between a UHF round loop, a UHF rectangular loop, a UHF flat-panel array, and a UHF outline bow-tie?


UHF round loop examples: RCA ANT110 , CNA 72-121 


UHF rectangular loop example: RCA ANT111 


UHF flat panel array example: Philips SDV2210/17 


UHF outline bow-tie example: Radio Shack 15-234


----------



## holl_ands

Fol. is a comprehensive indoor antenna test report:
http://www.ricability-digitaltv.org.uk/test-reports.htm 

Many of the (Chinese made) antennas probably have a U.S. "brand name" equivalent.

Also note many do not have rabbit ears for VHF.

There is no clear "winner" as to whether one style of design is

inherently better than another....individual design seems more important.


Highly rated, non-amplified Silver Sensor was in the middle of the pack....

but they didn't test the amplified model...which now includes rabbit ears for VHF:
http://www.beachaudio.com/Philips/Ph...CID=C12585x003 


They also didn't test a simple bow-tie (no doubt worse than a big loop)...and no VHF.


=========================

Amplified antennas tend to be better, mostly because the designer can try to

minimize VSWR problems....presuming you aren't "too close" to a nearby tower.


Among non-amplified models, those with a "tuning knob" to tweak VSWR probably

have somewhat better performance...but are very inconvenient....


The Silver Sensor has deeper nulls that can be positioned to minimize multipath

and would be my preference vs a Loop...which picks up multipath interference

because, unfortunately, it's BI-DIRECTIONAL:
http://www.dielectric.com/broadcast/...ntennas%20.pdf 
https://secure.connect.pbs.org/confe...ns/TC05_43.htm 


Zip file below contains spread sheets showing detailed VHF and UHF gain

improvement for Silver Sensor vs RCA Loop/Rabbit Ears.


----------



## holl_ands

Some on-air comparison tests:
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/antin.htm 
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/archives/8vsbcbstst.html 


Recent antenna lab test reported at NAB2008:
http://www.walb.com/Global/story.asp?S=8346127 

Includes unamplified (UHF Only) Silver Sensor, but does not

include amplified Silver Sensor with VHF Rabbit Ears.

Measured Noise Figure for some amplified antennas...

but doesn't list important F/B Ratio for multipath suppression.


UK Indoor Aerial Measurements Report (Issue 1.0):
http://www.dtg.org.uk/publications/books.html 

Unfortunately no brand names....guess which (periodic) is Silver Sensor....

Some of these are very poor....some amplified models even oscillate....


========================================

It should be obvious that indoor antennas are inherently

low performance, suitable mostly for short range reception.


If it isn't enough, consider a 2-Bay, 4-Bay or even 8-Bay antenna.

[I have an 8-Bay in an upstairs closet.]


Smart Antenna technology also may provide improved performance.


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/14031967
> 
> 
> It should be obvious that indoor antennas are inherently low performance, suitable mostly for short range reception.
> 
> 
> If it isn't enough, consider a 2-Bay, 4-Bay or even 8-Bay antenna. [I have an 8-Bay in an upstairs closet.]
> 
> 
> Smart Antenna technology also may provide improved performance.



The linked articles were very helpful. I'm in a suburban condo location in hilly Seattle near the airport, 11 to 23 miles from transmitters located in five distinct directions around my home. I've had middling experiences with several indoor aerials, including the Silver Sensor. I also tried a Channel Master 4221 indoors but it's just too big to use in a small condo home where my DTV channels are located in different locations.


Later this summer I may work with my fellow condo owners at putting up a rooftop aerial - complicated by the knowledge that three of my DTV channels revert to UHF in February 2009. I'll also look into Smart Antennas when they show up on the market. In the meantime, I have to report that out of fifteen different indoor antennas I've tried here - some amplified, but most nonamplified, not much of a clear consensus.

Thank you very much for the articles and information.


----------



## videobruce

I'm looking for a UHF DA (distribution amp) with a very high input level capability to use in a mixed signal enviroment. VHF is a non issue.

I have a mix of very strong and very weak signals in the same direction, hence the problem. It's been partially solved, but I'm looking for more leeway.


Preamps are pretty much out for two reasons;

1. The inability of being able to handle high signal levels and

2. The need to have it indoors since I have traps (filters) installed in an attic to tame those stronger signals and have no need to have a remote PS.


I see this Winegard HD269 preamp was mentioned;
http://www.audio-video-connection.com/product/HDP-269 


But again, I really don't want or need a two piece preamp (with an additional two F ports and the additional related signal loss to deal with.

The DA I have now is a now discontinued Winegard DA-1018 which is good, far better than a Blonder Tongue MUVB-25 it replaced, but I'm hoping that something better is available.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/14033281
> 
> 
> I'm looking for a UHF DA (distribution amp) with a very high input level capability to use in a mixed signal enviroment. VHF is a non issue.
> 
> I have a mix of very strong and very weak signals in the same direction, hence the problem. It's been partially solved, but I'm looking for more leeway.
> 
> 
> Preamps are pretty much out for two reasons;
> 
> 1. The inability of being able to handle high signal levels and
> 
> 2. The need to have it indoors since I have traps (filters) installed in an attic to tame those stronger signals and have no need to have a remote PS.
> 
> 
> I see this Winegard HD269 preamp was mentioned;
> http://www.audio-video-connection.com/product/HDP-269
> 
> 
> But again, I really don't want or need a two piece preamp (with an additional two F ports and the additional related signal loss to deal with.
> 
> The DA I have now is a now discontinued Winegard DA-1018 which is good, far better than a Blonder Tongue MUVB-25 it replaced, but I'm hoping that something better is available.



I have a Pico-Macom TA-36 that's never been used if you can use it.PM me.


----------



## videobruce

As in this;
http://www.mjsales.net/items.asp?Fam...=273&Cat2ID=75 


Thanks for the offer, but the gain is way too high and the input level is way too low. Even the TA-12 isn't that great;
http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/B/B13.pdf 


Amps with that high gain _usually_ have low input capibility.


----------



## cpcat

channelvision cvt-15pia

http://www.channelvision.com/pdf/pro...T15PIA-ins.pdf 


The lowest noise figure in-line amp I've come across. I use it as a post-amplifier indoors after a 20db gain research comms amp on the mast. No problems with overload in my configuration. Gain is 15db.


----------



## holl_ands

Several times I've posted results of various on-air tests which found Indoor Loss

(using same antenna) was about 13 dB (+/- 7 dB):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7892248 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7891979 


Bob Chase's attic was at high end of this range...very little due to loss of height:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7839036 

Indoor Loss and Antenna Height Gain are somewhat intertwined...higher is better....


Here's a test from U.K. comparing UHF Silver Sensor indoors vs hi-gain outdoor antenna:
http://www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/settop.html


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I have an xg91 with a channel master 7775 amplifier connected with old DirecTV cable about 100 ft long, but I only need about 25 feet, up on a 1 story roof which is overhung by a massive oak tree. Antenna is approximately 25 ft off the ground attached to the chimney and a large tin roof covers the whole house. I have a treeline about 50 yards out and Pecan trees left and right with a small window towards the towers which are all together within 4 degrees most of them are at 45 miles, a couple closer to 25 miles. Flat marsh land and open ocean between me and the towers.


Im not happy with the reception. I get frequent drop outs sometimes.


What can I do to improve this setup?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im thinking a shorter cable for the run, which may be in better condition as well. What type of cable should I look into?


----------



## TV in NY

I'd like to start off by thanking everyone in this thread.


The information that has been posted has been extremely valuable. I've only just recently started to dabble in Over the Air digital television reception and without this thread, I doubt I would have even been inspired to even consider a do-it-yourself homemade antenna project.


Needless to say, like many others, I have been amazed at some of the results I have gotten so far up to this point.


So far, I have built a number of antennas. I haven't given all of them serious testing. The ones I am having somewhat problems with, I will get to later on and I am hoping others may have some suggestions. That is even if the ideas will work at all.


Below is a photo of the VHF/UHF attic antenna. It pulls in most digital signals, but there are problems on a few stations (Analog reception is fine on all channels except for a very slight ghost on CBS 2, but it is not very annoying). I was going to buy a pre-amp but then I stumbled on the do-it-yourself antenna thread and decided to give that a shot first.












Here is the TV Fool information on available channels......













There were big problems with the digital signals from PBS Channel 13 and CBS Channel 2. They would be weak at many times and pixelate an awful lot.


I built two antennas. A homemade DB4 and a homemade DB8. The DB4 increased performance and I didn't seem to get any noticeable increase in performance from the DB8 that I built (The DB8 was not built with a reflector screen because the DB4 actually performed worse when tested with a reflector screen).


Below are several pictures of the DB4 clone currently installed in the attic.....






















The performance of this DB4 clone has been outstanding until this past month. I even pick up CBS from Philadelphia. However, since some nearby trees have grown in recently, there have been a few problems with a couple of stations.


Basically the primary problems are back to being CBS 2 and PBS 13. The signal on some other channels seems to have gone lower, but the picture is still good and crystal clear..... And that is without even going through a splitter.


I'm sure a pre-amp may be in my future, but I put together a few other antennas maybe thinking that could be avoided.


I built a Gray-Hoverman and put together a few other antennas. I'll discuss them and show pictures in my next post.


Continued.........


----------



## TV in NY

I need to make this useless post on the board before I can make further posts.


More on the antennas coming next.....


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thats a sweet 4 bow tie antenna TVNY.


----------



## TV in NY

Here are some other antennas I built and put together..........


I built a Gray-Hoverman and I was surprised at the performance I was getting on channels that I previously had problems. However, with this antenna I had problems with other channels. That problem may disappear when all channels are changed in February 2009. I can't say for sure.












One of the best antennas I built was a DB4 clone that could be installed near the television. I put it on a wooden stand......






















Sitting on bench after being built... click *here...* 



There are some antennas with parabolic screens that I plan on testing....


This one seems to be promising... but I'm not sure....











For a larger image, click *here...* 



I was wondering what others thought about parabolic reflector screens for antennas.


I had a few parabolic antennas in the garage from the old days when HBO was broadcast over the air (It was on microwave frequencies back then and required down converters).


I'm curious as to if a DB2 can be used as a feed horn. I'd also like to know the optimal length of the feed horn from the parabolic elements of possible.


I don't even know if this is feasible. That is why I would like to know what others have to say.


Here is another possible antenna design with a 24db parabolic screen designed for "wireless cable".............












Another angle here.......













I think these parabolic reflector ideas may have something to them, but there are so many variables.


Does anyone else have any ideas regarding their use?


----------



## TV in NY




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14037478
> 
> 
> Thats a sweet 4 bow tie antenna TVNY.



Thanks bro.


----------



## cpcat

RG6 would be fine.


If you have D* and aren't using the H20-600 you should be. The OTA tuner is excellent.


----------



## videobruce

cpcat; What kind of signal levels are you talking about? That is another example where the input level isn't specified (which doesn't help me in this case).

How close s the nearest xmitter tou your location?


> Quote:
> (for the millionth time)



Not to me Rick.

In spite of what you think about my current Winegard DA-1018, it does work and far better than what it replaced (BT MUVB-25). I'm just looking for a little more edge, but I don't want to take a step backwards. Can that amp be powered from internally w/o going through the coax?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/14038422
> 
> 
> cpcat; What kind of signal levels are you talking about?
> 
> How close s the nearest xmitter tou your location?
> 
> Not to me Rick.
> 
> 
> In spite of waht you ahve side in the past, my current DA-1018 dos work. I'm just looking for a little more edge, but I don't want to go backwards. Can that amp be powered from internally w/o using their power inserter type PS in line (as in a direct, internal hard wired connection, not through the coax)?



Unfortunately, I couldn't find any max input level specs for the cvt-15pia. I'm at >65 miles to most of my transmitters but do have a full power PBS at around 45miles and a full power religious channel at 40 as well as full power CBS at 50. I use the hi port of an HLSJ at the antenna right before the RC amp so local FM is virtually eliminated. I'm also using a Blonder Tongue mwt-u notch filter set to trap the local analog religious channel right before the cvt-15. Finally, I use a variable attenuator after the cvt-15 and right before my tuners to tweak the final input level as "wide open" I still get a little overload at the tuner (not the amp).


I wouldn't worry about the loss of a power inserter if I were you either way. I use an HLSJ to insert power wherever possible as I don't need/want any lowband or FM. This means placing the HLSJ after the amp, attaching the DC power source to the "low", the "common" to the amp output, and the "hi" to the tuner. You could also put another UVSJ or HLSJ on the amp's input if you want to prefilter the signal further. You could alternatively use a UVSJ as the power inserter after the amp similar to above assuming DC is passed on its vhf side.


Looking at the HDP-269 specs, it may be a better choice for strong signal environments than the cvt-15.


----------



## MikeBiker

A parabolic reflector is best for a single frequency. For a wider bandwidth, commercial antennas have their reflectors at a 90 degree angle.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I'm curious as to if a DB2 can be used as a feed horn. I'd also like to know the optimal length of the feed horn from the parabolic elements of possible.



Nice workmanship.


For parabolas, the elements need to be placed at the focal point. You will need to know the radius of the reflector bend. Google for the formula of the focal point of an elipse. But that reflector you have is too small for effective parabola performance, it will act more like a regular reflector. Commercial uhf TV parabolas were/are 5 to 7 feet in diameter.


Both the Hoverman and Bow-ties dont really come into their own without a reflector. For the Hoverman flat reflector it should be 100mm, plus or minus 15mm. Also I noticed you used the old 44mm element feed spacing. Recent modeling tests have shown 95mm will increase gain. Check the Hoverman thread at http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...=81982&page=33 


For the bow-ties check the How-to-build-uhf antenna thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...798265&page=10 With mclapps 15 inch reflector spacing, you may be able to get channel 8.


Both the Hoverman and 4 bay bowties will out perform the uhf section of that commercial vhf/uhf combo. But I noticed you have a real channel 8 digitial at -53.4. The vhf/uhf combo will be superior for that channel. After next February, how many stations will you have on vhf-high and vhf-low ?


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/14035356
> 
> 
> Here's a test from U.K. comparing UHF Silver Sensor indoors vs hi-gain outdoor antenna:
> http://www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/settop.html



This was a good read, thanks. As it states, you can't get something from nothing. In other words amplifying a bad signal is not likely to help. Amps add no directionality, or real gain.


Those "contract aerials" seem to be quite popular in the UK, but I'd imagine they would work just fine in many areas of the US (paired with a VHF antenna). They seem to avoid bow-ties, however, for reasons still unknown to me.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I think Im gonna try a Winegard 4400, in place of the xg91. I put a DB2 up there and it seems to be holding its own against the xg91.


Scratches head.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

When aiming the xg91, I was getting better reception moving towards the eastern trees that frame the shot towards the towers in Charleston, until I ran into them, then it dropped again, so Im hard up against the Eastern trees, just off of them. Ill take a compass up there and check, Antennaweb has the towers at 62 to 65 degrees magnetic north.



How do I get my tvfool image to this message board?


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14042261
> 
> 
> How do I get my tvfool image to this message board?



First, if you haven't already done so, save the image to your hard disk. On the tvfool results page, you should be able to just click on the image and a menu pops up with an option to save it.


Then, when you post a message here, at the bottom of your message-composition page you should see a box "Attach Files" with a button named "Manage Attachments". Click that button, and you'll get another window where you can navigate to your saved image and upload it.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here it is.










Im concerned with the first 8 channels listed minus channel 19. They are all clustered in the same direction (and location), excepting for channel 16.1 WJWJ PBS which I am picking up fine on the backside. I am having particular trouble with 36.1, 4.1, and 7.1 in that order.


I could conceivably move an antenna into the giant oak tree(dont really like this idea), or to another location on the roof.


----------



## PCTools

When it comes to Antenna making, you are better at just purchasing them. For your so-called, 24dB gain parabolic, I would say you need some more tweaking. Let's not forgot about VSWR's. These can kill your radio.


For $50, I would just buy a mass produced model.


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> if your current situation with 18 db causes issues with a dozen filters



1. I have 7 traps,

2. 18db isn't a 'high' gain amp. That 36db that the other poster mentioned is.

3. I'm feeding four tuners. I need the gain to make up for that loss and the low signal coming in.


> Quote:
> You may not need all your current filters when all is said and done.



You do realize that I'm dealing with three stations with 45-50 dbmV signal levels (analog) and four more with levels between 30-35 dbmV (digital)? Then consider that I'm looking at signals I can't even measure (less than -35 dbmV).


cpcat; You have nothing even remotely close to you, so there isn't anyway you would be bothered with overload.


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/14043702
> 
> 
> When it comes to Antenna making, you are better at just purchasing them. For your so-called, 24dB gain parabolic, I would say you need some more tweaking. Let's not forgot about VSWR's. These can kill your radio.
> 
> 
> For $50, I would just buy a mass produced model.



You might want to read that again, he said it was a parabolic from a 24db wireless cable set-up. I don't think he was claiming his antenna was making 24 db.


It looks like He's having fun with it and probably learning more about antennas along the way.


VSWR's might kill your signal to the receiver but they won't kill your receiver, it will damage a transmitter though.


----------



## AntAltMike

Published amplifier input specs are of only limited usefulness in selecting one to meet an individuals' needs for a number of reasons.


First of all, with many consumer products, especially Winegard and Channel Master, they seem to have just taken old figures of arbitrary limits for keeping sync compression or intermodulation distortion developed by analog signal inputs under certain thresholds, but use them as limits for contemporary applications. Second, often times the input specs don't even say what channel load they apply to.


It is common practice among newcomers to the residential antenna amplifier manufacturing market to specify a level at which some kind of intermodulation distortion is developed. Some manufacturers actually say it is the 3rd Order IMD level, others just say IMD. As I understand it, an intermodulation distortion benchmark, if properly used, is the input (or output) level at which a single digital channel develops some undesired, on-channel intermodulation byproduct that is 40 dB below the signal (-40dBc) on itself. I have also read in a report linked way back in this thread somewhere that when a signal develops -40dBc of 3rd Order IMD on itself, it tends to develop -52dBc of 3rd Order IMD on adjacent channels, so that tells me that when I am trying to process my local Baltimore channels 38 and 40, but am plagued by a much nearer and stronger Washington DC channel 39 that is commonly nearly 20dB stronger than channels 38 and 40, that the intermodulation developed will excessively degrade the channel 38 and 40 signals before it reaches the -40dBc overload spec.


When you put different frequency signals into an amplifier and they also are at different signal strengths, it is impossible to calculate all of the undesirable intermodulation byproducts that are developed, but certain of the weaker signals will fall victim to the debilitating effects of that distortion. And making matters worse is that the tuner may get swamped by the stronger out-of-band signals as well.


I don't know Videobruce's situation, but if he has seven filters in series before his antenna signal hits his amp, he may have so much insertion loss that the biggest problem that his weakest signals face is that the cumulative insertion loss may be dropping his weak signals too close to the thermal noise level. Does he have a real signal meter, such that he can report his actual signal levels in dBmV both before they enter his filtering network and after?


FWIW, I bought a couple of inexpensive Channel Master OSD0065 23dB UHF/16dB VHF preamps and compared their effect on some a very weak analog channel 24 and digital channel 59 signals to that of an uncommon Winegard item, its model AP4747, which is a 23dB gain UHF preamp that is nearly identical to the AP4700 and AP4800 and should have the same maximum output of those two products. I had a couple of 20dBmV analog inputs and a couple of 10 dBmV digital inputs as my strongest signals, but my weak inputs were an analog channel 24 that was around -5 dBmV, and the digital channel 59 was, as I recall, perhaps around -25 to -30dBmV.


The UHF gain was 23dB in all four amplifiers tested, as specified, which actually surprised me because the gain of a Winegard AP4800 is actually 36-38dB at about 500-530 MHz, whereas it is about 28dB at around 700 MHz, but the AP4747 gain was flat across the entirre UHF band.


The manufacturer's published maximum output figures for the AP4700 and AP4800 exceed those of the Channel Master OSD0065 by about ten dB, yet the Winegard preamp visibly decimated the weak analog signal and degraded the weak digital signal such that the primitive "%" signal meter in my set top box deemed it to be inferior, while the Channel Master preamp sustained the analog picture quality and the digital signal "%" went up just a little. And my input and output levels were well below the rated maximum signal levels for either product.


I can rule out the possibility that the Winegard signal processing problems were caused by out-of-band tuner overload because I then hand-tuned a UHF bandpass filter and put it on the preamp outputs, but that did not improve the Winegard's performance. I was able to improve the Winegard AP4747's performance somewhat by placing the tuned BPF on its input, but that was a poor solution because the BPF had about 4dB of insertion loss, and I couldn't sacrifice that much input, as that additional antenna signal loss would render my system vulnerable to atmospheric signal fade.


----------



## johnied




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/14043702
> 
> 
> When it comes to Antenna making, you are better at just purchasing them. For your so-called, 24dB gain parabolic, I would say you need some more tweaking. Let's not forgot about VSWR's. These can kill your radio.
> 
> 
> For $50, I would just buy a mass produced model.




Well, of course one could just buy the antenna .. but thats not the fun

of the whole process for the experimenter. One gets a kick modeling

and tinkering with these things and using the knowledge in your own

head to sometimes even surpaass whats available on the market..

Durability .. thats another issue.



John


----------



## AntAltMike

I see from another thread that Videobruce deals with signals measuring from +25 to -38dBmV. If those are the signal levels measured where they first become available for processing, and if they are measured correctly (using an analog signal meter undervalues the digital signal strength by about 8dB), he is in deep doo-doo.


His earlier post mentions having six "sleeve" type filters in series. FWIW, I just had Gamco make me up twenty UHF highpass filters and twenty UHF lowpass sleeve type filters, and the insertion loss was typically 4dB, which is something that a cable company can live with, but since I was pairing them to form bandpass filters, the combined loss of typically 8dB was insufferable.


Videobruce might get his best results by starting with the unfiltered downlead going into the 12 dB preamp, then putting in the notch filters on the output before further amplifying, as needed. Or if that fails, he might try notching just his strongest, then try notching his strongest two, then his strongest three local channels before entering the 12dB preamp and then notching the rest on the output side of that initial preamp before hitting the second amp. That will keep his weak signals as far as possible above the noise floor.


----------



## PCTools

Variable standing wave reflection ratio(VSWR), will send ununsed power back into your radio. Depending on your equipment, it will damage the head-unit, that is the network card which is the reciever / transmitter. You want to have this less than 1.5.


I use a 24dB parabloic antenna with a 1 watt amplifier for my WISP. The amplifier also has a built in 10dB pre-amp. I have used the 30dB gain (Stage 5) in the past. This baby is a monster. If you cannot get your signal with this baby, it cannot be DONE! Put a 1 watt amp behind this and you will push this signal over 50 miles. (Just don't stand in front of these antennas). The gain factor of these with an amp is incredible.

http://www.radiolabs.com/products/an...gig/stage5.php 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mclapp* /forum/post/14044264
> 
> 
> VSWR's might kill your signal to the receiver but they won't kill your receiver, it will damage a transmitter though.


----------



## PCTools

Thought I would upload some pictures of Greg's new tower, as he is having some problems getting these to upload.


Here she is:

 

Crank Me Up.pdf 415.810546875k . file


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/14045414
> 
> 
> Variable standing wave reflection ratio(VSWR), will send ununsed power back into your radio.



VSWR is Voltage standing wave ratio.


----------



## PCTools

Opps, thanks.


25 years in amature radio, and I got busted..











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mclapp* /forum/post/14045702
> 
> 
> VSWR is Voltage standing wave ratio.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/14045447
> 
> 
> Thought I would upload some pictures of Greg's new tower, as he is having some problems getting these to upload.



Am I seeing it right? The tower is between two sets of power lines? I'm guessing one set is from the utility pole, the other set goes to the garage?


I know they're insulated, but....:


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Some people like living on the edge I guess.


----------



## 300ohm

That definately is on the scary side.


----------



## hotmoosettu

I don't know about others, but I've certainly had good luck using the fm antenna from my receiver. It's just a thin little cable with a cable type connector on the end that plugs into the back of my hddvr. Get all the locals in hd now and didn't have to spend a dime on an antenna.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here are some pics of my setup and environmental situation.


The antenna is facing NNE. Im getting best reception hard up against the Eastern vegetation in my window of opportunity.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Its a jungle out there!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I was thinking about moving the antenna forward to the front of the top roof, so I can get a free shot more Eastward than where it currently is. I think Ill unhook the xg91 and hand hold it, see where I may be able to get a better signal on the roof. I wish I had a meter! I might have to get one, my Vizio doesnt have a signal meter.


----------



## tobri7

Hey all,


I'm looking for some advice on an antenna for my new Samsung LN52a550 LCD tv.


According to antennaweb the majority of my DTV signals are ~3 mile away at 14 to 23 degrees. The one exception is the local ABC station which is 35.5 miles at 276 degrees.


One other constraint. I live in a townhouse style apartment, so an outdoor unit is not an option. Also, the path toward the majority of signals is clear, but I have a thick line of trees to the West (toward ABC).


Any siggestions for a viable option?


----------



## cpcat

Beautiful live oak and your surroundings in general for that matter.


----------



## bozey45

thats a great looking live oak you have there. We have 4 large oaks, 2 front and 2 back. My 91 XG is on a 30 ft. telescoping mast so I have the antenna angled up 15 degrees or so to get above the front oak; Orlando digitals come in pretty well at 70-85 miles with the 91xg aimed away from our locals and towards Orlando; the CM7777 doesn't overload on locals this way.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tobri7* /forum/post/14053296
> 
> 
> Hey all,
> 
> 
> I'm looking for some advice on an antenna for my new Samsung LN52a550 LCD tv.
> 
> 
> According to antennaweb the majority of my DTV signals are ~3 mile away at 14 to 23 degrees. The one exception is the local ABC station which is 35.5 miles at 276 degrees.
> 
> 
> One other constraint. I live in a townhouse style apartment, so an outdoor unit is not an option. Also, the path toward the majority of signals is clear, but I have a thick line of trees to the West (toward ABC).
> 
> 
> Any siggestions for a viable option?




Technically, IIRC there is a 1996 fcc ruling (law??) that allows you to put up an outdoor antenna. If a landlord or condo association wants to fight it in a specific instance, they are responsible for all the legal costs for doing so.


But if you want to try an indoor option, I would build a Hoverman or a 4 bay bowtie without a reflector and give that a try and see if you can get the local ABC station.


----------



## Matonly1T

Panasonic TC-26LX70

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...-32425780.html 


Sony Wega KDE-42XBR950

http://b2b.sony.com/Solutions/produc...64&catId=21868 


I recently got a TV for my mother and I'm thinking about getting her and myself a HDTV Antenna...?


My Sony plasma specs says it has a built in Tuner, does that mean I don't need to buy an antenna? My other question is I'm looking for a quality Tuner for the Panasonic tv

http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/9781/a1xr5.png 


the lines lead to the towers near me, it would have to be an indoor antenna.


My Antenna Zones:
http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/5...wandredbx2.jpg 
http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/1...ndviolepr2.jpg 


Can anyone help me? (I'd also like to mention while I can buy it online I prefer to do it in a retail store.)


I've been looking at these, are they the right choice?
http://www.jr.com/terk/pe/TRK_TV1/ 
http://www.jr.com/terk/pe/TRK_HDTVA/ 
http://www.jr.com/terk/pe/TRK_HDTVI/


----------



## allargon

Anyone using the Philips MANT950 inside?

http://www.amazon.com/Philips-MANT95.../dp/B000E1TO6Q 


Everyone I read in this thread is using it outside or in the attic. I'm not in the mood to do an attic or outside run as my current RG-6/59 is used for my feed from Dish.


My trusty +50dB gain Philips MANT510 works well in the winter, but fails miserably in the spring/summer when the leaves come back.


----------



## PCTools

Looks like a spin-off of those Terk antennas.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *allargon* /forum/post/14058345
> 
> 
> Anyone using the Philips MANT950 inside?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Philips-MANT95.../dp/B000E1TO6Q
> 
> 
> Everyone I read in this thread is using it outside or in the attic. I'm not in the mood to do an attic or outside run as my current RG-6/59 is used for my feed from Dish.
> 
> 
> My trusty +50dB gain Philips MANT510 works well in the winter, but fails miserably in the spring/summer when the leaves come back.


----------



## videobruce

Rick; -35.6 to -52 at what reference? dbm?

-35dbm is only +14 dbmV which isn't anything. I'm talking +50 dbmV or +1 dbm at the high end and below -40dbmV or -88dbm at the low end.


> Quote:
> Does he have a real signal meter, such that he can report his actual signal levels in dBmV both before they enter his filtering network and after?



Yes to both Mike.


I understand a broadband amp is not the correct choice. Up to now, it is an improvement over what I had. It is basically working except for the very, very weak channels of which two more digital stations air up and running in the past week from Toronto. I will look into a band stop filter cutting off everything below 174 MHz.


----------



## tobri7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14055802
> 
> 
> Technically, IIRC there is a 1996 fcc ruling (law??) that allows you to put up an outdoor antenna. If a landlord or condo association wants to fight it in a specific instance, they are responsible for all the legal costs for doing so.



I am aware of that law. I have Directv, but am unable to get a JD signal due to lack of a sightline with the HD satelites (I get SD directv though).


Anyway when I had the dish installed the management company acknowledged that theu, by law, cannot prevent me from installing a dish, but they also indicated that when I vacated the property I needed to leave the condition of the buildeing EXACTLY as when I moved in. Meaning I couls nor attach anything to the exterior of the building with nails, screws, glue, etc. In other words, they can't prevent you from having an antenna, but they cAN make it virtually impossible to install one.


Anyway, my dish is sitting in a bucket of cement on my patio. I looked into some OTA antenna attachments that would fit on the dish, and I guess that is still an option if indoor doesn't work.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/14059454
> 
> 
> ...I will look into a band stop filter cutting off everything below 174 MHz.



The highpass side of a typical UVSJ attenuates the VHF low (2-6) and FM by about 40dB with an insertion loss of about half a dB, so unless you suspect that you have some strong midband interference, I doubt that you would benefit from a midband (sub 174 MHz) trap, which probably has a dB or more of insertion loss.


What do you measure your total, seven filter insertion loss of the weakest channels to be?


----------



## Matonly1T

Added a little more information to my last post.


----------



## ctdish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Matonly1T* /forum/post/14060819
> 
> 
> Added a little more information to my last post.




The TVs need to have an ATSC tunner. Check the front for a label or the owners manual. They need some kind of antenna. At 3.5 miles from the transmitters probably not too much will be required. Try a loop or rabbit ears if you can find them, higher priced antennas are only a little better, some are worse. Keep away from any antenna with an amplifier- it will likely cause more harm than good.

John


----------



## Matonly1T




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/14061453
> 
> 
> The TVs need to have an ATSC tunner. Check the front for a label or the owners manual. They need some kind of antenna. At 3.5 miles from the transmitters probably not too much will be required. Try a loop or rabbit ears if you can find them, higher priced antennas are only a little better, some are worse. Keep away from any antenna with an amplifier- it will likely cause more harm than good.
> 
> John



Alright thanks! So the different colors won't mean a thing due to my close proximity?


----------



## fajitamosaic

We just bought a digital converter box and hooked up the only antenna we have, an old UHF loop / VHF combo. Now, we live in a basement level apartment with a north facing window, and have placed the antenna on a window ledge that barely puts it a foot above ground level. Sadly, outdoor antennas are not an option here.


Our antenna works pretty well, generally, but we'd like to get another off-the-shelf antenna that will boost the overall signal strength (seems to be 60 to 70 percent right now) because our PBS, ABC, and FOX channels have a little more "artifacting" than we'd like (they fluctuate between 40 and 60 percent). We'd also like to be able to pull in our local MyTV affiliate and a distant Ion affiliate that are both giving us a weak, unusable signal right now (20 to 30 percent).


Here is the TV Fool data for those specific channels we'd like to give a boost (Lansing, MI area, 48911):

Code:


Code:


Call    Real (Virt)  Network   Xmit(kW)   Rx(dBm)  Path  Dist(mi) Azimuth
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
WSYM-DT  38 (47.1)     FOX     925.82     -46.0    LOS   17.2      190°
WLAJ-DT  51 (53.1)     ABC     826.44     -48.7    LOS   20.5      170°
WKAR-DT  55 (23.1)     PBS      54.60     -53.5    LOS    9.2       94°
WHTV-DT  34 (18.1)     MyN       1.96     -67.9    LOS   11.1       98°
WZPX-DT  44 (43.1)     ION     212.00     -56.3    LOS   24.1      265°

Like I said, the first three on that list come in at 40 to 60 percent and have periodic artifacts that we'd like to cut back on. The last two don't come in at all, but we are receiving a weak signal from both that tops out at 30 percent).


Specific suggestions for an off-the-shelf antenna in the under $50 range that will help us get these stations better? Optimally, it'd be one we can buy locally and potentially return if it doesn't work out.


Thanks for any input!


----------



## SkiSmuggs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tobri7* /forum/post/14053296
> 
> 
> Hey all,
> 
> 
> I'm looking for some advice on an antenna for my new Samsung LN52a550 LCD tv.
> 
> 
> According to antennaweb the majority of my DTV signals are ~3 mile away at 14 to 23 degrees. The one exception is the local ABC station which is 35.5 miles at 276 degrees.
> 
> 
> One other constraint. I live in a townhouse style apartment, so an outdoor unit is not an option. Also, the path toward the majority of signals is clear, but I have a thick line of trees to the West (toward ABC).
> 
> 
> Any siggestions for a viable option?



See this thread for good suggestions:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779 


I would eliminate any amplified antennas from the list due to your close proximity. Also, the new Winegard HD-1080 is a 2 bay panel antenna that does upper VHF as well as UHF. It is small enough you may put it in a closet, but better on a mast in another bucket of cement. They can be had for about $36 plus shipping. I'm installing one this weekend to replace my 4 bay and separate high-VHF antennas as I've always wanted a small single antenna solution.


----------



## videobruce

I do have two FM xmitters 1.5 miles away. And the usual 2-way stuff, but I doubt that is any issue.

C&E out of E. Syracuse NY has a bandpass filter that cuts off under 174 MHz for $16 I was considering.


I will take measurements and post.


----------



## Falcon_77

I had a question on FM antennas (if this is the right place for it). On car antennas, it is very common to see them with a twist these days. i.e. there is a spiral element in addition to the straight element. Is this an attempt at impedance matching, AM reception or something else?


----------



## fbov

If you can find the pics of the "smart antenna" you'll see the PWBs have small coils on them. The idea is to make the antenna element appear longer without actually using the space. Now, I think you're referring to the loose spiral wrapped around the length of the whip. No idea what's different from the load coils.

Frank


----------



## hdtvluvr

I thought that was the antenna for the remote key fob. I've seen it on some cars and not on other cars (same model and year).


----------



## johnied




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/14067322
> 
> 
> I had a question on FM antennas (if this is the right place for it). On car antennas, it is very common to see them with a twist these days. i.e. there is a spiral element in addition to the straight element. Is this an attempt at impedance matching, AM reception or something else?



If its less than a full turn, i would say its probably for strengthening,a

full twist in a small area would be a coil adding.. effective length to the antenna. making an electrically longer antenna for a lower frequency.


and of course a longer antenna would certainly help for AM since a true

half wavelength at 1600 khz is VERY VERY long 



John


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/14067322
> 
> 
> I had a question on FM antennas (if this is the right place for it). On car antennas, it is very common to see them with a twist these days. i.e. there is a spiral element in addition to the straight element. Is this an attempt at impedance matching, AM reception or something else?



How long is the antenna? FM/AM antennas are typically 31-in rods...no coils.

Although a loading coil would improve AM reception, the rod would no

longer resonate in the FM band.


Nonetheless, overly short motorcycle antennas with large loading coils

can be designed to resonate at 27 MHz for a CB transmitter, while also

providing a somewhat compromised FM/AM reception capability....


Maybe you are looking at a CELLULAR antenna, which is only 12 to 15-in:
http://www.installer.com/antenna/ant.html 

The spiral element in the middle of CL60/61 and RM01 is a "loading coil"

making the antenna electrically "look longer". The extra inductance helps to

match the cellular transmitter load, minimizing VSWR.


BTW: AM/FM antennas are sandwiched into the glass on most recent cars.

For the past decade, Volvo wagons have embedded active antennas into each

rear side window...with a diversity combiner for improved FM performance.

The "T" shape provides vertical polarization coverage towards front/rear...

and vertical/horizontal polarization coverage towards the sides.


----------



## hdtvluvr

When I read the comment about the "Twist" I was thinking about the extra wire that spirals up some car radio antenna's - not a twist in the actual antenna.


----------



## SkiSmuggs

My Winegard HD-1080 2-bay UHF/high VHF antenna arrived yesterday ($36 plus shipping). This morning I removed a Winegard 4-bay UHF, a Winegard YA6713 high-VHF, a UHF/VHF diplexor and the coax associated with all that and replaced them with the HD-1080.

I live 14 miles from the towers on Mt Mansfield with LOS to them, ideal conditions for a downsized solution. The tuner is a VIP622 from E* Here are the results showing station, actual digital channel, before and after signal:


2 Antennas 1 Antenna

WCAX-53 99 92

WPTZ-14 96 88

WVNY-13 87 81

WETK-32 98 98

WFFF-43 100 100


The mass on the mast is 1/3 of what it was and the appearance is much cleaner. I'm thinking this is a keeper.

http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewitem.asp?p=HD-1080


----------



## SkiSmuggs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Turbulent* /forum/post/14019322
> 
> 
> Can someone recommend an antenna based on the pic below? I want to be able to view all the stations, but am unsure which one I need..
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Tony



Winegard HD-1080 at $36 plus shipping should do nicely. See my review above.


----------



## SkiSmuggs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Turbulent* /forum/post/14020604
> 
> 
> Got any recommendations for a good antenna that fits this? How do I aim it at 130 degrees?



At noon, the sun should be due south at 180 degrees. Facing the sun, east is to your left at 90 degrees. 130 is about halfway in between.


----------



## videobruce

Ok, received and tested the Winegard HDP-269. results as follows (compared to the existing Winegard DA-1018);


1. No apparent difference in input capibility,

2. Doesn't handle my signal mix any better,

3. Since gain is 6db less than what I have, there was a noticeable difference on one digital channel whereas the 269 lost the signal, the 1018 didn't,

4. I removed all filters and the 269 didn't preform any better,

5. Tried just filters for the three strongest analog stations and the 269 didn't perform any better, in fact it might of been worse,

6. I added all seven filters and confirmed that both amps were about the same,

7. W/O the filters, two analog channels that were full quieting were completely gone. Not even blanking bars could be detected,

8. With the three analog filters, those stations were there, but very noisey,

9. AFAIC, FM isn't a problem, the 1018 has a switchable FM trap that I don't see a difference if it is 'in' or 'out'.


To answer Mikes question, regarding filter loss, depends on what channel you are asking about. Outside the filter skirts, the overall loss is around 2db. This was using a Spectrum Analyzer w/ a tracking generator.


The SLM I'm using does read digital signals, but there is nothing that states the word 'digital' anywhere. It is from Satvision, the SM-2002. Holland (and others) sell a similar meter (same case, different menu) for more $$.


----------



## Konrad2

> At noon, the sun should be due south at 180 degrees.


That's noon standard time, or 1 pm daylight time.

And it could be off, depending on where you are in your time zone.

I'm sure there is some way to start with lat./long. coordinates

(e.g. from a GPS, or some maps have them) and calculate what time

the sun will be directly south.


Or you could get a compass. Even then you have to deal with

magnetic north vs true north.


This is a lot easier if you can see the towers.


----------



## AntAltMike

I always use maps. I haven't used a compass in a decade. With off-air antenna pointing, absolute precision in pointing is not essential and often not even beneficial. With satellite pointing, absolute accuracy is essential, but we achieve that by peaking the antenna aim with a signal meter.


----------



## AntAltMike

2dB signal loss is very small for a seven filter series. I'd say the only thing you can do to further enhance your reception of the weak distant signals you desire is expensive antenna work, and even then, the results can't be guaranteed. You might as wait until the analogs get shut off before you spend anymore money.


----------



## SkiSmuggs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *n4yqt* /forum/post/14076138
> 
> 
> Where did you get it at that price?



I got it from Stark because they are closer and shipping was lower. If I lived on the left coast, I would have ordered from Summit Source.


----------



## videobruce

I'm going to replace the downlead with RG11 (about 20-25') which will also eliminate a barrel connection that was need to extend the line further.


I was going to try a 4248, but after looking at Channel Master's own field tests, the 4228 had greater gain, narrower BW and greater F/B ratios on most of the channels. This was in spite of Bob Chase's own tests of the same antennas that showed 2db greater gain on the upper UHF portion.


I orginally was going to wait, but a couple of new developments in this area changed my mind, but now I'm back to plan A.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/14075551
> 
> 
> I always use maps.



The street-level map that antennaweb.org produces shows the directions to the transmitters from the location that you've given it. Simply center it on your house location.


----------



## videobruce

I had the cable, I just need the connectors (hence the other question).


----------



## tobri7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SkiSmuggs* /forum/post/14074620
> 
> 
> My Winegard HD-1080 2-bay UHF/high VHF antenna arrived yesterday ($36 plus shipping). This morning I removed a Winegard 4-bay UHF, a Winegard YA6713 high-VHF, a UHF/VHF diplexor and the coax associated with all that and replaced them with the HD-1080.
> 
> I live 14 miles from the towers on Mt Mansfield with LOS to them, ideal conditions for a downsized solution. The tuner is a VIP622 from E* Here are the results showing station, actual digital channel, before and after signal:
> 
> 
> 2 Antennas 1 Antenna
> 
> WCAX-53 99 92
> 
> WPTZ-14 96 88
> 
> WVNY-13 87 81
> 
> WETK-32 98 98
> 
> WFFF-43 100 100
> 
> 
> The mass on the mast is 1/3 of what it was and the appearance is much cleaner. I'm thinking this is a keeper.




Thanks for the review, and suggestion. In my case I am starting to think indoor is not a possibility, and I don't have the mechanical skills to build a DIY antenna.


The HD-1080 might be an option for me. I've been looking for specs on the winegard website, but haven't found much info.


I did notice the satelite mouunt attachment that Winegard makes (??-1111). Do you think that type of mount would hold the HD-1080?


----------



## n8wci




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/14067322
> 
> 
> I had a question on FM antennas (if this is the right place for it). On car antennas, it is very common to see them with a twist these days. i.e. there is a spiral element in addition to the straight element. Is this an attempt at impedance matching, AM reception or something else?



Some antennas "sing" in the wind, this spiral wire reduces or stops it.


Steve


----------



## SkiSmuggs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tobri7* /forum/post/14077245
> 
> 
> Thanks for the review, and suggestion. In my case I am starting to think indoor is not a possibility, and I don't have the mechanical skills to build a DIY antenna.
> 
> 
> The HD-1080 might be an option for me. I've been looking for specs on the winegard website, but haven't found much info.
> 
> 
> I did notice the satelite mouunt attachment that Winegard makes (??-1111). Do you think that type of mount would hold the HD-1080?



Yes, the J-mount should work fine. Or you could use a wall mount and a mast.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Or you could get a compass. Even then you have to deal with
> 
> magnetic north vs true north.



Whats nice about TVFool is, they give the heading in both magnetic and true.


----------



## fajitamosaic

Can anyone with a Winegard HD-1080 or any other DB2 style antenna give me advice as to how the antenna might perform Indoors inside a basement apartment with a window.


I haven't had much success with amplified antennas. I'm too close to a couple towers and I think those channels crush the rest when I amplify the signal (Lansing, MI. WLNS and WILX come in at 80%+, the other channels are around 60% and have dropout issues. WKAR is unwatchable). So I'm wondering if the solution is simply to get a bigger, meatier antenna like the HD-1080 or perhaps the SS-3000.


The SS-3000 is more aesthetically pleasing for an apartment dweller, but I've heard DB2's can't be beat for overall reception.


I might be able to hang this thing from the ceiling, but most likely I'd prop it on the window sill or set it on the floor in a corner (would that kill it's ability to get signal?).


----------



## SkiSmuggs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fajitamosaic* /forum/post/14091833
> 
> 
> Can anyone with a Winegard HD-1080 or any other DB2 style antenna give me advice as to how the antenna might perform Indoors inside a basement apartment with a window.
> 
> 
> I haven't had much success with amplified antennas. I'm too close to a couple towers and I think those channels crush the rest when I amplify the signal (Lansing, MI. WLNS and WILX come in at 80%+, the other channels are around 60% and have dropout issues. WKAR is unwatchable). So I'm wondering if the solution is simply to get a bigger, meatier antenna like the HD-1080 or perhaps the SS-3000.
> 
> 
> The SS-3000 is more aesthetically pleasing for an apartment dweller, but I've heard DB2's can't be beat for overall reception.
> 
> 
> I might be able to hang this thing from the ceiling, but most likely I'd prop it on the window sill or set it on the floor in a corner (would that kill it's ability to get signal?).



The HD-1080 is almost twice the size of the DB2 even though it is still a 2 bay. However, it is classified as a medium directional and does high band VHF as well as UHF so I expect that it will out perform the DB2. And, as suggested, check antennaweb.org and tvfool.com

As for installation, it is critical that it be above ground level. You could use an old floor lamp with the light cut off as an antenna stand, an outdoor umbrella stand or a plastic bucket with cement and a mast.


----------



## Falcon_77

Are there any reports of overloading pre-amps from MediaFlo on 55?


Also, for the future, I'm concerned that pre-amps such as the 7777, we be overloading with even greater regularity. In my case, while the local TV stations are at 51 miles, I've got a cell phone tower within line of sight, about 3/4 of a mile away. I'm pretty certain it will have something in the 52-69 range after the transition, which will render my pre-amp unusable.


On the bright side, the channels that require me to use the pre-amp will be moving back to upper VHF. They should fare better than they have for their 52+ assignments, with interference from analog adjacent channels.


----------



## ctdish

From looking at cell antennas, cell phones use vertical polarization which will show up on horizontal antennas with cross polarization loss of about 20 dB. They are also running lower power than a TV station. I would guess about 10-20 watts per caller.

John


----------



## ShrimpBurrito

Howdy - Newbie here....spent many hours over the past few days looking through this thread. Just wanted to get some feedback on a little problem that has developed. I live in the LA area, and installed a 43XG antenna on my house about 2 years ago along with the CM 7777 preamp and about 60-feet of RG-6. All of the LA stations are on one mountain about 31 miles away, all in the same direction. Things were great. All the major networks were strong, and we had a bunch of PBS stations also....maybe 20 stations total. Then, over time I believe, although I'm not sure because for awhile I thought seasons/sunspot cycles/etc. were impacting signal, reception got worse. Much worse. All of the PBS stations are gone, and the networks that were once solid (75 signal strength) now are low 60's (threshold for a picture) and often times in and out or no signal. Now I have no solid signals, and only 5 or so that are quasi-dependable, but still with drop-outs.


A bit of a novice, I didn't seal any of the coax, so I thought 2 years of corrosion was the cause. So I got new RG-6 with Snap N Seal connectors from Blue Jeans Cable. In the process of removing the old cable, I broke the built-in balun on the antenna as the connectors were corroded together. So I picked up a $2 one at Frys to replace it, installed the cable, and put Coax Seal all over the connections, including the antenna. No difference.


Then I removed both the preamp and the preamp power supply, so the coax went from the antenna to the grounding block to the receiver. The reception was just as good without the preamp as with it. There is 20 volts coming out of the power supply, so that either seems to mean that the preamp is shot, the antenna is too corroded (I am 1/2 mile from the ocean), or transmitter specs have changed.


I called Channel Master, and he said the preamp should be fine since there is signal with the preamp installed and powered, and there is zero signal (on any channel) when I unplug the power supply. Is there insufficient signal loss on a 60-ft run of RG-6 with multiple connections such that the 7777 wouldn't make a difference?


The beam is aluminum and in good shape with some light oxidation, but the "reflector", which is not aluminum, seems to have surface rust.


My TVfool chart is attached.


Any thoughts on what may be the problem? I could put in RG-11, although that would make a difference, get a 91XG, or the Research Communications preamp, but I didn't have any of that 2 years ago and things were great.


I'm using a Digital Stream HD3150plus receiver.


Many thanks,

Dave


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/14093862
> 
> 
> Are there any reports of overloading pre-amps from MediaFlo on 55?



I have not heard of that yet.


MediaFlo sites are limited to 50 KW ERP. They usually look for tall TV towers. The sites are placed 20-30 miles apart, so they do not use the typical 200' cell tower unless a low power repeater is needed for a dead spot.


----------



## 300ohm

It could be that the new balun is bad, that happens. Also check your grounding block and the wire into the house. I would think in your good area, no preamp would be needed for a 60ft run.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/14093862
> 
> 
> Are there any reports of overloading pre-amps from MediaFlo on 55.



In Ft. Belvoir, VA, the channel 55 signal coming in off the WNVC analog 56, digital 57 antenna is at least ten dB stronger than the weak channel 57 digital TV signal. That isn't enough to cause an overload, but it does give me one other problem. The channel 56 analog is converted to VHF channel 13 using a heterodyne converter, but that device also performs, "unintended conversion" of digital channel 55 into broadband noise on analog channel 12, making it look like hell, so I had to replace the analog 56 to 13 heterodyne converter with a demodulator/modulator pair.


700 MHz lowpass filters (LPF-700) that can cleany scrape off a troublesome channel 55 signals are commonly available for about $20 or so.


----------



## obeldobs

Greetings,


I think I have read so much in the last few days that I've gotten myself confused. :^)


I live about 25 miles south from the DC broadcast towers. The terrain around me is broken and heavily wooded. Although I get the analog signals pretty well, my digital is limited to Fox, UPN, Ion, and an independent station. TV Fool says that the signal strength between the analog and digital are pretty similar.


Here is my set up. I have an (old) large roof-mounted RS antenna (not a VU-190 XR, but similar) mounted maybe 25' in the air. The antenna is on a rotor, and I think I'm pointed pretty dead-on. There is a 10' cable run from the antenna to an Archer 15-1124 pre-amp that I bought when dinosaurs roamed the earth, then another 15' run to the power source.


After the power source is a two-way splitter. Each 'arm' of the splitter is subsequently split an unknown number of times (the cables disappear under the blown-in insulation, making ti really hard to track.) Finally, I terminate in a Zenith DTT900 converter box.


The fact that I can receive the analog but not the digital has me perplexed. The best that I can figure is that the tree leaves are blocking the UHF signal but not the VHS signal.


Here are the questions I can think to ask. If anybody has any other suggestions, I'm happy to hear them!


1) Would moving the pre-amp closer to the antenna have any significant effect?


2) What if I replace the pre-amp with a CM 7777? The Archer claims a gain of 20 - 25 db with 3 db of noise, but who knows.


3) Should I invest in a dedicated UHF antenna like the CM 4228? All of the local stations are sticking with UHF after the transition, with the exception of 7 and 9.


4) What if I replace the splitter with a distribution amp like a CM 3043 or 3044? Can I even put a distro amp after a pre-amp?


5) How about the DTT900? Is it a decent unit? What should I have bought instead?


6) Any other ideas?


----------



## Digital Rules

Do you live near Lake Jackson, or any of the many low spots in Manassas? You will more than likely need a stronger antenna. I just replaced a RS VU-160 with a CM4228(UHF) at a friends house in Madison, Va with excellent results. The RS antennas just don't have the best UHF sensitivity. You will need a combo antenna like a Winegard HD7084P,(Channels 7 & 9 are going back to VHF in '09) or maybe seperate UHF/VHF antennas depending on your elevation. As far as a pre-amp, I always had trouble with the UHF station at Indepedent Hill(6 miles away). A CM 7777 may work, but you may get a bit of overload. Analog 66 & 56 are pretty potent there also. The Winegard HDP-269 may be a better choice. Go to TV Fool and put in your exact address under "Signal Locater". This will give you a much better idea of exactly what you can realistically expect at your location. If you go to Google maps and get the exact coordinates for your address, it is even more accurate. You should be able to get many of the stations above the gray shaded area with the right equipment. As far as converter boxes, I am using the Zenith DTT 900 here in Arlington with excellent results. It does an great job with weak signals, even when located less than 4 miles from many strong stations. It even pulls in 1 of the Richmond, Va stations quite often here. You shouldn't need a distribution amp either, unless you have more than 3-4 splits. The pre-amp should be adequate.


----------



## obeldobs

Thanks for the good info! Yup, I'm a couple miles from lake Jackson, on Davis Ford. I down-loaded Google Earth and the transmission maps from TV Fool, and I range from light turquoise to dark blue. I will think about what you said about over-driving the receiver. I never considered that! The reception here has never been stellar... it sounds like a problem I'd like to have! LOL


Pulling Richmond... wow... on cold nights I can sometimes get Baltimore, and I consider it a good day!


----------



## SkiSmuggs

obeldobs


Yes, go with the 4228 (you may not need the pre-amp), and if you need it, get a separate high band VHF with a UHF/VHF combiner.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SkiSmuggs* /forum/post/14100022
> 
> 
> obeldobs
> 
> 
> Yes, go with the 4228 (you may not need the pre-amp), and if you need it, get a separate high band VHF with a UHF/VHF combiner.



The 4228 is an "excellent" deep fringe antenna. It's just think it's too big(tall) when you need to also consider VHF reception. I think a good combo Winegard antenna should work fine in Manassas as long as your signal levels are -85dBm or better.(Check TV fool with exact coordinates) If you do need to go with separates,(-100dBm or better) the 91-xg is much easier to stack with a high band VHF on the same mast. You need "at least" 3-4 feet between 2 antennas so they don't interact with each other. The 4228 is 3 feet tall, so you probably would need at least 15 feet of mast by the time you get the antenna on the bottom 5 feet off the roof.(Guy wires????) I would say try without the amp first, but it sounds like you are using more than 1 TV, so you will probably end up needing one for distributon needs.


----------



## ShrimpBurrito

I think I'm just going to try the 91XG, which will have a new balun in it, and see what that does. That will knock out two possibilities at once, and presumably give me more gain than what I had before.


Thanks,

Dave


----------



## fajitamosaic

Quick questions for antenna gurus: A Philips PHDTV3 Silver Sensor solved our reception issues in the living room, but now I need to put in a splitter and run some coax into the bedroom. The splitter is already on and the signal doesn't seem to have been hurt. For my purposes, I notice most store bought coax comes in 25 or 50-foot sizes.


So, my questions are:


a) How much signal loss would I expect with 25-foot vs 50-foot?


b) Am I going to need some sort of amplifier?


c) WTF is Quad-Shield? Is that better or just smoke n mirrors?


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Antennas Direct’s Clearstream2 Antenna Available for Pre-Order
> 
> 
> St. Louis-based antennas maker Antennas Direct announced its new, ultra-efficient, compact, digital TV antenna, ClearStream2, will arrive June 30. Orders are being taken now.
> 
> 
> ClearStream2 is Antennas Direct’s latest model of digital TV antennas, which are optimized specifically for the 2009 digital conversion.
> 
> 
> “The ClearStream2, which is the first in a series of ClearStream DTV antennas, is unmatched in size and performance,” said Antennas Direct President Richard Schneider. “Demand for ClearStream2 is high because of its strength, reliability and small form.”
> 
> 
> The first DTV antenna created with the latest simulation software and test equipment, the ClearStream2 is designed to receive digital, over-the-air broadcasts, with a range up to 50 miles. Its wide, 70-degree beam width allows it to capture signal from towers spaced far apart, and its patented, tapered-loop design is 50 percent smaller than previous models.
> 
> 
> continued...
> 
> http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messag...81/495599.html



.


----------



## johnied




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14102878
> 
> 
> .




Goodness thats one UGLY antenna. 


On a serious note I sure would like to see the innards of those loops.

I bet they are similar to Winegards SS 2000 with its fractal elements.


Just thinking out loud.


John


----------



## spydermonkey311

Newbie to antennas. I just built a Single Bay Hoverman Antenna, and the results are great. Anyone else have excellent success with one? Im curious how it compares to the commercial antennas. Im also curious if its worth building a Double Bay. Will a Double Bay get channels further away or just improve the signal?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *spydermonkey311* /forum/post/14104317
> 
> 
> Newbie to antennas. I just built a Single Bay Hoverman Antenna, and the results are great. Anyone else have excellent success with one? Im curious how it compares to the commercial antennas. Im also curious if its worth building a Double Bay. Will a Double Bay get channels further away or just improve the signal?



Yep, I built a DBGH, the results are great. To get an idea of its performance relative to other antennas, look in the official Gray Hoverman thread for charts (read about 13 pages back): http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...210#post759210 


And then look at Ken Nists charts, "Comparing some commercially available antennas" : http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...210#post759210 

and then compare the data. Keep in mind after February, all channels over 52 disappear.

As far as a DBGH for you, it depends on your location if you need it or not. Check TVFool.com.



And a picture of mine :


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fajitamosaic* /forum/post/14101599
> 
> 
> Quick questions for antenna gurus: A Philips PHDTV3 Silver Sensor solved our reception issues in the living room, but now I need to put in a splitter and run some coax into the bedroom. The splitter is already on and the signal doesn't seem to have been hurt. For my purposes, I notice most store bought coax comes in 25 or 50-foot sizes.
> 
> 
> So, my questions are:
> 
> 
> a) How much signal loss would I expect with 25-foot vs 50-foot?
> 
> 
> b) Am I going to need some sort of amplifier?
> 
> 
> c) WTF is Quad-Shield? Is that better or just smoke n mirrors?



a) about 1db every 18 feet. Keep in mind, youre losing about 3 db with that splitter. (3db is cutting your signal in half)


b) Maybe, with that splitter, youre losing 4.5 db total. Maybe you should consider 2 separate Silver Sensors instead.


c) RG6 is shielded with a layer of foil and braid. Quad shield is foil, braid, foil and braid again. Its overkill unless youre in a very electrically noisy environment. Buy good quality plain RG6. Dont buy the older RG59.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnied* /forum/post/14103094
> 
> 
> Goodness thats one UGLY antenna.
> 
> 
> On a serious note I sure would like to see the innards of those loops.
> 
> I bet they are similar to Winegards SS 2000 with its fractal elements.
> 
> 
> Just thinking out loud.
> 
> 
> John




Heh, it was probably designed for motorhomes whose owners are big NASCAR fans of car #8 (or buy 2 for#88).










I bet its just stacked uhf loops with a preamplifier. Up to 50 miles ? Yeah sure, during a good troposphere event.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14102878
> 
> 
> .



Demand for ClearStream2 is high because of its strength, reliability and small form.



How does an new model of antenna that is only in the pre-order stage already have a reputation for reliability?


----------



## 300ohm

Well, maybe it doesnt even have an amplifier in it. Two small steel hoops and a piece of fencing and a metal pole IS pretty strong, reliable and small














.



They could also claim its non-allergeric.


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnied* /forum/post/14103094
> 
> 
> On a serious note I sure would like to see the innards of those loops.
> 
> I bet they are similar to Winegards SS 2000 with its fractal elements.



I bet it's not; I bet what you see is what you get. It's similar to a biquad design (common at 2.4Ghz) but with round loops instead of squares. A biquad has pretty narrow bandwidth, maybe the fancy tapered loops increase it... or maybe they don't and their "patent" is a design patent.


----------



## mrow2

I thought I was so smart. Bought a CM 4228 over a year ago at Fry's when they had a sale (great price, it has practically doubled now), figuring all post 2/09 freqs would be UHF. For the interim I joined it with two short lengths of RG6 to a UHF/VHF medium-rating Radio Shack antenna and folded down the UHF Yagi-part of it, to get adequate VHF analog. It works ok, but there's a little ghosting and reflections on some lower channels. There probably would be some anyway as there are trees and structures in the signal path.


Now, I see with the new assignments posted by Falcon that 4 LA area stations will be in the 7-13 band. I am wondering if I can tweak my CM 4228 to perform a little better in the 7-13 range using the two baluns and RG6 fix that has been posted here. Are there any other, better modifications that could easily be made on a CM 4228?


----------



## sometimesonli

We spend some time in a small 1-story condo in Holtsville when we visit family on Long Island ... not enough time to make subscribing to cable or satellite cost effective. Any advice on indoor or outdoor antenna that will work with a HDTV converter?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mrow2* /forum/post/14111780
> 
> 
> I thought I was so smart. Bought a CM 4228 over a year ago at Fry's when they had a sale (great price, it has practically doubled now), figuring all post 2/09 freqs would be UHF. For the interim I joined it with two short lengths of RG6 to a UHF/VHF medium-rating Radio Shack antenna and folded down the UHF Yagi-part of it, to get adequate VHF analog. It works ok, but there's a little ghosting and reflections on some lower channels. There probably would be some anyway as there are trees and structures in the signal path.
> 
> 
> Now, I see with the new assignments posted by Falcon that 4 LA area stations will be in the 7-13 band. I am wondering if I can tweak my CM 4228 to perform a little better in the 7-13 range using the two baluns and RG6 fix that has been posted here. Are there any other, better modifications that could easily be made on a CM 4228?



What vhf-hi stations will you have ? Check here to see the performance of the 4228 on vhf-hi (middle of page) : http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## SkiSmuggs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sometimesonli* /forum/post/14111888
> 
> 
> We spend some time in a small 1-story condo in Holtsville when we visit family on Long Island ... not enough time to make subscribing to cable or satellite cost effective. Any advice on indoor or outdoor antenna that will work with a HDTV converter?



Any antenna that works with HDTV will work with the converters. What's more important is getting an antenna that works where it is used. Go to antennaweb.org and tvfool.com, input the address of the condo, look at the results for Digital, then give us the results so we can help.


----------



## mrow2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14112074
> 
> 
> What vhf-hi stations will you have ? Check here to see the performance of the 4228 on vhf-hi (middle of page) : http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html



LA area will have same upper VHF in DTV as with analog at present: 7, 9, 11, 13. I see a significant drop off below ch 9 on the chart for 4228, was wondering if I performed the coax & balun crossover + wire the two halves of the reflector together, if that would tweak the VHF performance a bit. i.e. would it be worth the trouble? I've read some of the earlier 4228 tweaking posts and the verdict seems somewhat positive but perhaps optimistically so. i.e. I'm not sure how much is wishful thinking. I would need ch 7 as it is the ABC owned and operated station here.


----------



## DrBri99




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mrow2* /forum/post/14111780
> 
> 
> Now, I see with the new assignments posted by Falcon that 4 LA area stations will be in the 7-13 band. I am wondering if I can tweak my CM 4228 to perform a little better in the 7-13 range using the two baluns and RG6 fix that has been posted here. Are there any other, better modifications that could easily be made on a CM 4228?



With the screens joined together with wire I'm able to clearly receive analog channel 8 from 70 miles.


YMMV.


In my area there will be channel 12 digital, as of now analog 12 from the same distance isn't always watchable, so it will be interesting to see what happens in 2/09.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Channel Master 4221 or Winegard 4400?


29438


All my channels are North-East at 55 +/-1 degrees and 45 miles out. Flatland, and a large portion of ocean between me and the towers, rest is marsh and forest.


I also have a 2nd PBS UHF channel WJWJ broadcasting at 23 miles and 294 degrees(not quite in the opposite direction, flatland, over forest. This is pretty easy to get, Im picking it up with a DB2 plus CM7777 on the roof right now facing the North-East Tower cluster at 45 miles.


My primary PBS channel among the towers, WITV, at 45 miles NE, will be switching to VHF Ch. 7 come Feb09.


What say you?



edit: Im having the most trouble with Channel 4 WCIV (at real channel 34) and 36 WMMP (at real channel 35). Everything else is pretty stable with the DB2, at least to the point that either the CM4221 or Winegard 4400 will be fine for them.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> LA area will have same upper VHF in DTV as with analog at present: 7, 9, 11, 13.



You have them very nicely spread there.







I dont think any amount of tweaking is going to get you all of them. If you tweak for one, the others will suffer. Your best bet is to get a VHF-HI only antenna and couple it to the CM4228. I think Winegard sells a VHF-Hi only antenna, and they arent the monster size that all-channel antennas are.


----------



## mrow2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14113300
> 
> 
> You have them very nicely spread there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I dont think any amount of tweaking is going to get you all of them. If you tweak for one, the others will suffer. Your best bet is to get a VHF-HI only antenna and couple it to the CM4228. I think Winegard sells a VHF-Hi only antenna, and they arent the monster size that all-channel antennas are.



OK this is interesting to me. What's involved? Right now I'm doing it with my old RS UHF/VHF with front end yagi. I closed down the yagi elements and ran the two into a combiner (which looks much like a splitter to me) then a single RG6 down to my attic where the signal is boosted and divided to different rooms. My reception is not perfect but it's pretty good. My UHF is generally pretty strong though I've had an issue with KCET 59 signal strength. Some tweaking today seemed to help. I'll do some experimenting without my old VHF RS antenna paired to the CM4228 and see how 7 & 9 VHF look with it, first.


Also one of the posts said VHF is helped somewhat by binding the two screens on the 4228 (mine has two, not one). Somehow I had the sense to do this with insulated #22 wire back when I installed the antenna, before anyone suggested it. But should these halves be bound with bare copper wire or simply nylon straps? Wouldn't it be better to assure contact with bare wires? I only bound at the top and bottom, am now guessing that several attachments would be better.


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mrow2* /forum/post/14113782
> 
> 
> Also one of the posts said VHF is helped somewhat by binding the two screens on the 4228 (mine has two, not one). Somehow I had the sense to do this with insulated #22 wire back when I installed the antenna, before anyone suggested it. But should these halves be bound with bare copper wire or simply nylon straps? Wouldn't it be better to assure contact with bare wires? I only bound at the top and bottom, am now guessing that several attachments would be better.



The 4228 will work best on VHF-hi with the screens bound together. If the screens are seperate they are not large enough to work as a reflector on all VHF-HI channels.


Bind the 2 reflectors together as best you can so that you can be sure that they are acting as 1.


Even with this mod the 4228 is only a limited VHF-hi antenna on most VHF-HI channels at best.


----------



## mlmahon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnied* /forum/post/14103094
> 
> 
> Goodness thats one UGLY antenna.
> 
> 
> On a serious note I sure would like to see the innards of those loops.
> 
> I bet they are similar to Winegards SS 2000 with its fractal elements.
> 
> 
> Just thinking out loud.
> 
> 
> John



Ugly?? That's new age digital beauty, my friend!










Why don't you buy one, have it X-Rayed, and post the pics here?


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14113300
> 
> 
> Your best bet is to get a VHF-HI only antenna and couple it to the CM4228. I think Winegard sells a VHF-Hi only antenna, and they arent the monster size that all-channel antennas are.



I believe you're probably referring to their high VHF yagi, the YA1713. Strictly for high VHF (7-13) gain it's one of the best out there, and only about $40. And having four high VHF stations (7, 9, 11, 13), I wouldn't skimp and hope the CM4228 could pull in a marginal picture. If there was one station that was not often watched, maybe. But if these are where four channels are, I'd want to make sure that was well-covered. For fringe reception to this market, a combination of a YA-1713 and something like a 91XG or CM4228 would likely be the better option than an all-in-one monster VHF/UHF antenna.


----------



## Tommy63

Yesterday, a Winegard 7084P antenna with a Winegard 8780 pre-amplifier was installed on the roof (attached to the chimney).







The antenna is approx 30 feet from the ground. It is attached to a rotor.


RG-6 coax is run along the outside of the house and then into the basement. The coax run is approx 40 feet where the feed is split into a four-way splitter. The longest indoor coax run is also about 40 feet from the basement to the top floor. (We cut the cable company's internal distribution system and utilized it for the antenna feed). The splitter only feeds 3 televisions. I also plan to split the signal again at two of the televisions to feed FM receivers.


The signal strength is much improved. Reception includes almost all of the stations identified from TV Fool for my location just west of Reading, PA. However, several stations from the Philly market have intermittent reception. Several other stations from that same area are at 100% signal strength (any time of day) according to the Channelmaster 7000 D2A converter box. In addition, channels from Scranton, PA are coming in at between 30 and 50% signal strength.


Should I add a distribution amplifier? Thanks for your advice. Please let me know if you need more info or need me to be more specific.


----------



## mrow2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ziggy29* /forum/post/14115936
> 
> 
> I believe you're probably referring to their high VHF yagi, the YA1713. Strictly for high VHF (7-13) gain it's one of the best out there, and only about $40. And having four high VHF stations (7, 9, 11, 13), I wouldn't skimp and hope the CM4228 could pull in a marginal picture. If there was one station that was not often watched, maybe. But if these are where four channels are, I'd want to make sure that was well-covered. For fringe reception to this market, a combination of a YA-1713 and something like a 91XG or CM4228 would likely be the better option than an all-in-one monster VHF/UHF antenna.



Well I have the 4228 now, would like to not overspend. Maybe in the future and also in a couple years' time there will be lots of upper VHF /UHF low/mid band antennas i.e. some new incarnations, might make sense to wait til then. Meanwhile one reason not to replace 4228 with a 91XG is that my transmitters are situated a few degrees from one another and Ch 50 (OC PBS - an important one) is in the same general direction too, but not exactly the same. Therefore a slightly less directional antenna like 4228 (15° spread) might be more forgiving than the more directional but superior 91XG. If I need an add-on, it would only be for 7 and 9. Looking at the ChannelMaster site, I see a new model (#2016) specifically for ch 7-51 and it's a medium sized Yagi with a VHF dipole sticking out from the rear! I guess I need to figure a way to combine a simple dipole tuned to ch 7 & 9 and link it to the CM 4228 without adding any unwanted reflections or artifacts i.e. competing signals.


Any special tricks to combining two antennas with different ranges? Use a combiner-splitter and coax with baluns? Any special attention paid to cable lengths? I am in N. Orange County, S of L.A., in Brea-E.Fullerton area.


----------



## fbov

Tommy,

Before adding a dist amp, you have a few loose ends to attend to. The first is the unterminated feed out of the 4-way splitter. This causes reflections within your line, your own multi-path signal source, and that's how a 100% signal may not come in.


Next, see if all those splits is the problem. Each pair costs 3-4dB, and the quad is 6-8dB. Run a single, unsplit line to your closest TV and see if reception issues go away. If so, a distribution amp at the quad splitter location should take care of you.


But first, terminate those open lines!


Frank


----------



## Tommy63

Frank, I'm off to the Radio Shack. Their website says that they have RF terminators. Hope that they have them in the store.


----------



## Digital Rules

Use a PICO USVJ-VHF/UHF combiner. They are excellent!!

Low loss(.05 db), filters out all out of band signals, and "very" cheap.($5.00 or less plus shipping on the internet). Differing cable lenghts won't be an issue. They are very versatile too. I use one to filter out strong VHF and FM from my system.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tommy63* /forum/post/14118323
> 
> 
> Frank, I'm off to the Radio Shack. Their website says that they have RF terminators. Hope that they have them in the store.



You may want to call first. I had to go to 4 stores before finding them here. Most of the employees didn't even know what they are. An item # is very helpful with this one!!


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mrow2* /forum/post/14117285
> 
> 
> Well I have the 4228 now, would like to not overspend. Maybe in the future and also in a couple years' time there will be lots of upper VHF /UHF low/mid band antennas i.e. some new incarnations, might make sense to wait til then. Meanwhile one reason not to replace 4228 with 91XG is that my transmitters are situated a few degrees from one another and Ch 50 (OC PBS - an important one) is in the same general direction too. Therefore a slightly less directional antenna like 4228 (15° spread) might be more forgiving than the highly directional but superior 91XG. If I need an add-on, it would only be for 7 and 9. Looking at the ChannelMaster site, I see a new model (#2016) specifically for ch 7-51 and it's a medium sized Yagi with a dipole sticking out from the rear! I guess I need to figure a way to combine a simple dipole tuned to ch 7 & 9 and link it to the CM 4228 without adding any unwanted reflections or artifacts i.e. competing signals.
> 
> 
> Any special tricks to combining two antennas with different ranges? Use a combiner-splitter and coax with baluns? Any special attention paid to cable lengths?



It would help if you posted TVFool results...or provide your location.


If you are using a garden variety RF Splitter/Combiner, it has 3.5+ (++) dB insertion loss.


You should be using a UHF/VHF Combiner such as UVSJ, which has 0.5 dB loss:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=UVSJ 

Each antenna connects to UVSJ via individual baluns. UVSJ output is coax to HDTV.


----------



## PCTools

Well, just put up the Funke 1922. Did that make a huge difference.


Some photos of the DX'ing Rig.

 

The Monster.pdf 360.443359375k . file


----------



## sometimesonli

Thanks,


The reslts from tvfool show the future dgital station signals mostly green and in the right direction (west) for my unit, while the current analog signals are red and also in the west. It seems that an indoor antenna would be ok next year, but not this year.


antennaweb shows most analog stations in blue. there are only six digital stations, 2 yellow, 1 grren, 1 blue, 2 violet.


Not sure if that's what you need --- i saved all the results, so let me know what else.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SkiSmuggs* /forum/post/14112559
> 
> 
> Any antenna that works with HDTV will work with the converters. What's more important is getting an antenna that works where it is used. Go to antennaweb.org and tvfool.com, input the address of the condo, look at the results for Digital, then give us the results so we can help.


----------



## mrow2

My location is North Orange County, S of L.A. County, in the Brea-E Fullerton area.


----------



## PCTools

50 foot Rohn tower with a 10' mask. So, I would say the top is 55' tall.


Chad




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *n4yqt* /forum/post/14120097
> 
> 
> Nice set up. How high are the antennas?


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/14118923
> 
> 
> Well, just put up the Funke 1922. Did that make a huge difference.
> 
> 
> Some photos of the DX'ing Rig.



Nice! Thanks for the two referrals,they both bought.

The big tower is finished with the UHF ants on it.Can't seem to upload a pic here,but test area thinks it's small enough.Link...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1041228


----------



## PCTools

Greg,


Glad to see you have the system in the air. Looks good.










Had my fat installer put up your antenna yesterday. He may call you to buy five of these.

















Swapped out the Winegard amp and put up a new CM7777. Could not tell any difference at all.


Chad



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/14121021
> 
> 
> Nice! Thanks for the two referrals,they both bought.
> 
> The big tower is finished with the UHF ants on it.Can't seem to upload a pic here,but test area thinks it's small enough.Link...
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1041228


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Also one of the posts said VHF is helped somewhat by binding the two screens on the 4228 (mine has two, not one). Somehow I had the sense to do this with insulated #22 wire back when I installed the antenna, before anyone suggested it. But should these halves be bound with bare copper wire or simply nylon straps? Wouldn't it be better to assure contact with bare wires? I only bound at the top and bottom, am now guessing that several attachments would be better.



Yes, bare copper wire, not insulated. The idea is to make the sections one big reflector electrically.


If you notice here : http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 

channel 7 on the CM4228 may not be so good for you. Combining the YA1713 with it seems to be the best option.


> Quote:
> I guess I need to figure a way to combine a simple dipole tuned to ch 7 & 9 and link it to the CM 4228 without adding any unwanted reflections or artifacts i.e. competing signals.



The best thing for experimenting like that is to take apart an old set of rabbit ears, drill out the holes to fit the feed attachments on the uhf antenna, and experiment with various lengths and positions.


holl_ands:


> Quote:
> You should be using a UHF/VHF Combiner such as UVSJ, which has 0.5 dB loss:
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=UVSJ
> 
> Each antenna connects to UVSJ via individual baluns. UVSJ output is coax to HDTV.



Any recommendations for separate vhf and uhf 300 ohm antennas to 75 ohm coax ?


----------



## holl_ands

I posted 300-ohm to 75-ohm transformer (aka Balun) loss info here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=13581150 


Although some indoor Baluns performed somewhat better, for outdoor use,

the Channel Master that comes with CM4228 was better than the others I tested:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=CM3075 
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm


----------



## mrow2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tommy63* /forum/post/14116887
> 
> 
> Yesterday, a Winegard 7084P antenna with a Winegard 8780 pre-amplifier was installed on the roof (attached to the chimney).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The antenna is approx 30 feet from the ground. It is attached to a rotor.
> 
> 
> RG-6 coax is run along the outside of the house and then into the basement. The coax run is approx 40 feet where the feed is split into a four-way splitter. The longest indoor coax run is also about 40 feet from the basement to the top floor. (We cut the cable company's internal distribution system and utilized it for the antenna feed). The splitter only feeds 3 televisions. I also plan to split the signal again at two of the televisions to feed FM receivers.
> 
> 
> The signal strength is much improved. Reception includes almost all of the stations identified from TV Fool for my location just west of Reading, PA. However, several stations from the Philly market have intermittent reception. Several other stations from that same area are at 100% signal strength (any time of day) according to the Channelmaster 7000 D2A converter box. In addition, channels from Scranton, PA are coming in at between 30 and 50% signal strength.
> 
> 
> Should I add a distribution amplifier? Thanks for your advice. Please let me know if you need more info or need me to be more specific.



I have some thoughts about this, as I've experimented a lot even though I have some of my own issues I've posted here. I would not waste this precious signal on two FM receivers. Each time you split, you diminish. This is way too much antenna for an FM set but it probably means putting up a separate omni-directional or directional (depending on your station locations) on the roof and running a sep. cable down so that you can distribute to those, if you must have all the FM stations. For any FM set that is high, maybe you can just use a simple indoor dipole. Alternatively, you can boost the signal and maybe this would be advisable. Investigate the boosters and decide which is best - antenna located or inside, guess both have some advantages. My booster has a variable gain control and I do recommend this since an over boosted signal can be noisy. I had splitters for my VCRs because I didn't want to fool with the TV/VCR switches on the units. But this weakened the signals to all the sets so there really is a price to be paid for that. I am gradually doing away with VCR splitters and trying to keep the signals going to TVs and converters only. i was able to visibly reduce noise by removing just one splitter, in one problem area.


----------



## mrow2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/14118324
> 
> 
> Use a PICO USVJ-VHF/UHF combiner. They are excellent!!
> 
> Low loss(.05 db), filters out all out of band signals, and "very" cheap.($5.00 or less plus shipping on the internet). Differing cable lenghts won't be an issue. They are very versatile too. I use one to filter out strong VHF and FM from my system.



OK I googled it and came up with this post. This is good info, where can I get them? Ok just found it (UVS) at SolidSignal. Will order one (it may in fact be what I've got up there now, so I'll have to look first. Also like the idea of having a couple extra CM baluns on hand. Also someone mentioned that a sep UHF/VHF antenna combined to the 4228 should have its UHF elements separated from the rest of the antenna. Guess I could saw it off. All this is temporary anyway, as I'll probably end up buying either a channel specific ant or the new Winegard 7-13 antenna for 40 bucks.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mrow2* /forum/post/14127272
> 
> 
> OK I googled it and came up with this post. This is good info, where can I get them? Ok just found it (UVS) at SolidSignal. Will order one (it may in fact be what I've got up there now, so I'll have to look first. Also like the idea of having a couple extra CM baluns on hand. Also someone mentioned that a sep UHF/VHF antenna combined to the 4228 should have its UHF elements separated from the rest of the antenna. Guess I could saw it off. All this is temporary anyway, as I'll probably end up buying either a channel specific ant or the new Winegard 7-13 antenna for 40 bucks.



WOOPS!! I meant "UVSJ", not "USVJ".


Glen


----------



## Jon_J




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/14126597
> 
> 
> I posted 300-ohm to 75-ohm transformer (aka Balun) loss info here:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=13581150
> 
> 
> Although some indoor Baluns performed somewhat better, for outdoor use,
> 
> the Channel Master that comes with CM4228 was better than the others I tested:
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=CM3075
> http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm



I have a channel master 4221 and decided *Not* to use the Balun that comes with it. It is the same Balun you mentioned.

The reason I'm using a different Balun is because the Balun that comes with the CM 4221 has long leads. Don't these leads act like "twin lead" antenna wire?

I have terrible multipath problems at my location in my attic, so I'm thinking the indoor Balun with short leads from our local cable co. would perform better.

Am I correct, or would you recommend I use the Balun supplied with my CM 4221?

*Edit*

After looking at your excel file: "Balun Loss Using TWC-SD Freqs RevC.xls"

I decided to use my RMS branded Balun (model # CA-2600F). It is a very fat one compared to most others, and has real short leads.

I also have a Sega Balun, which came with my Sega Master System, or Genesis.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/14126597
> 
> 
> I posted 300-ohm to 75-ohm transformer (aka Balun) loss info here:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=13581150
> 
> 
> Although some indoor Baluns performed somewhat better, for outdoor use,
> 
> the Channel Master that comes with CM4228 was better than the others I tested:
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=CM3075
> http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm



Yeah, I had already seen that. I was wondering about a uhf/vhf 300 ohm input combiner with an integrated balun 75 ohm output. Is no such animal being sold now ?


I have an old Gemini uhf/vhf splitter that has 300 ohm outputs and 75 ohm in, that I was thinking to use in reverse after weatherizing it. I took it apart to see 2 small disc capacitors and the coils were etched into the pc board in a greek key type pattern, and a transformer to the 75 ohm in. (it also had 2 small resistors in it, but they were going to the 300 ohm FM output, which I wont use)

What do you think about its use ?


----------



## Tommy63




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/14117951
> 
> 
> Tommy,
> 
> Before adding a dist amp, you have a few loose ends to attend to. The first is the unterminated feed out of the 4-way splitter. This causes reflections within your line, your own multi-path signal source, and that's how a 100% signal may not come in.
> 
> 
> Next, see if all those splits is the problem. Each pair costs 3-4dB, and the quad is 6-8dB. Run a single, unsplit line to your closest TV and see if reception issues go away. If so, a distribution amp at the quad splitter location should take care of you.
> 
> 
> But first, terminate those open lines!
> 
> 
> Frank





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mrow2* /forum/post/14127049
> 
> 
> I have some thoughts about this, as I've experimented a lot even though I have some of my own issues I've posted here. I would not waste this precious signal on two FM receivers. Each time you split, you diminish. This is way too much antenna for an FM set but it probably means putting up a separate omni-directional or directional (depending on your station locations) on the roof and running a sep. cable down so that you can distribute to those, if you must have all the FM stations. For any FM set that is high, maybe you can just use a simple indoor dipole. Alternatively, you can boost the signal and maybe this would be advisable. Investigate the boosters and decide which is best - antenna located or inside, guess both have some advantages. My booster has a variable gain control and I do recommend this since an over boosted signal can be noisy. I had splitters for my VCRs because I didn't want to fool with the TV/VCR switches on the units. But this weakened the signals to all the sets so there really is a price to be paid for that. I am gradually doing away with VCR splitters and trying to keep the signals going to TVs and converters only. i was able to visibly reduce noise by removing just one splitter, in one problem area.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/14128431
> 
> 
> To split the signal to the fm receivers use a winegard ca8800 tv/fm splitter instead of a standard splitter off the combo antenna. Insertion loss is only .4 db.



Put an RF terminator on the unused splitter port. And, connected 3rd feed to an analog TV. These two step made it possible to watch Philly 29 during the afternoon, which was not possible before. Terminated those open lines! I also connected one D2A converter box to the main feed and did not see any appreciable difference in signal strength compared to 4-way splitter reception.


Sniffed reception from Ch 27 in Harrisburg. A good sign for post transition. I want to be able to get the CBS affiliate for greater NFL variety.


Called the installer, requested changing out the 4-way splitter for a 3-way. The 3-way splitter was my original request. Going to have to wait a few days for that change. Going to pick up a couple of Db's there.


Did not split the signal for FM, yet. I can live with a little indoor antenna that picks up the local FM stations. (Does hurt a little not to be able to use the outdoor antenna, but I'll live.)


The Winegard CA8800 splitter looks like it costs nearly as much as a 3-way distribution amp. Is that the preferred course of action, because a distribution amp may generate too much signal from some stations?


What does it mean when the signal strength rapidly cycles from 0 to 50%? Is that caused by multi-path?


----------



## bykes

How do I get 5.1 Audio from an antenna if I do not have an Tuner build into my A/V Receiver? I have a Pioneer VSX92THX. I wanted to get an antenna to check out my local OTA HD. But I'm not sure on how to go about getting that OTA 5.1 audio. My tv has only stereo outputs.


Thanks.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14128742
> 
> 
> Yeah, I had already seen that. I was wondering about a uhf/vhf 300 ohm input combiner with an integrated balun 75 ohm output. Is no such animal being sold now ?
> 
> 
> I have an old Gemini uhf/vhf splitter that has 300 ohm outputs and 75 ohm in, that I was thinking to use in reverse after weatherizing it. I took it apart to see 2 small disc capacitors and the coils were etched into the pc board in a greek key type pattern, and a transformer to the 75 ohm in. (it also had 2 small resistors in it, but they were going to the 300 ohm FM output, which I wont use)
> 
> What do you think about its use ?



Some combiners with 300-ohm input and 75-ohm output were listed here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=13942351 


However, since they don't list any specs, insertion loss is unknown.


Using OLD (or unknown) RF components is a crap shoot....they are likely to have

an insertion loss at HIGHER end of range of posted measurements.....or worse....

For example old style RF combiners had 6 dB vice nominal 3.5 dB insertion loss....


The LOWEST LOSS is to use the UVSJ with individual Baluns.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Winegard 4400 vs Channel Master 4221


Which has the better build quality? Which one is tougher, stronger, can take more abuse? Which one will last longer?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/13952906
> 
> 
> Use a pair of 300-ohm to 75-ohm Balun Transformers...one for VHF and one for UHF.
> 
> A pair of coax runs connect to UVSJ low-loss VHF/UHF Combiner and then coax downlead:
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=UVSJ
> http://www.summitsource.com/uhfvhf-b...sj-p-6976.html
> 
> 
> Be sure to use waterproof sealer on all connections.
> 
> 
> Alternatively, if you don't have any "nearby" towers, use a Preamp with separate
> 
> UHF and VHF inputs instead. Choice of preamp depends on distance to towers...
> 
> 
> ====================================
> 
> PS: Solution for jcs444 (post #7322) was for ATTIC use, presuming coax or twin-lead output.




Looks like the CM preamps with the 300 ohm input and 75 ohm outputs are the only way to go for me.


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bykes* /forum/post/14133173
> 
> 
> How do I get 5.1 Audio from an antenna if I do not have an Tuner build into my A/V Receiver? I have a Pioneer VSX92THX. I wanted to get an antenna to check out my local OTA HD. But I'm not sure on how to go about getting that OTA 5.1 audio. My tv has only stereo outputs.
> 
> 
> Thanks.



What TV/Tuner do you have??? You may have to just use PLII mode if the TV/Tuner does not have an optical out...This is another plus of using a seperate tuner...which is still an option...


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I wonder how this one stacks up to the Winegard 4400 and the CM 4221....


Antennacraft U-4000











My tower cluster is tight together at 45 miles 55 degrees NE, but that markets PBS station is moving to VHF Hi next year. However I have another PBS station broadcasting at 23 miles at 294 degrees which will stay on UHF. So Im trying to catch it on the backside(its the only other station I pick up reliably besides those in the cluster). I was leaning to the Winegard 4400, but this one looks like it may give me some backside seepage as well.


I currently have a DB2 hooked up on the roof with a Channel Master 7777 amp and 50ft of Quad Sheild RG6 to the Vizio GV42LF, and its performing admirably, definately pretty satisfactory, but Id like to lock everything in just a bit better. Picks up my backside PBS station as good as everything from Charleston....which means Id like to boost it just a bit more.


Hmmmm....


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> but this one looks like it may give me some backside seepage as well.



I believe it will too.

Of course some people dont want the backside seepage due to reflections from the back causing multipath.


----------



## n8wci

Binging a 4228 reflector. "Yes, bare copper wire, not insulated. The idea is to make the sections one big reflector electrically.

Would 1/32" stainless TIG rod work the same electrically? It's bare, would be stronger, and last longer, and I have a few.

Thanks,

Steve


----------



## n8wci

Previous post question should have read "Binding" a 4228 reflector together


----------



## SkiSmuggs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14133396
> 
> 
> Winegard 4400 vs Channel Master 4221
> 
> 
> Which has the better build quality? Which one is tougher, stronger, can take more abuse? Which one will last longer?



The 4400 is very light weight and is good in windy, snowy places, but the 4221 is probably stronger. I think the Antennas Direct DB4 is by far the best build quality though. I have one I only use to show folks the reception they can get because it travels well.

Just looked at a 4221 that my brother has and the build is very close to the DB4, so it is stronger than the 4400. However, if you are just going to put it up and leave it, it shouldn't make much difference. The 4400 has a little more gain over the DB4 and beats the 4221 below channel 28 for gain.


----------



## bykes




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/14133458
> 
> 
> What TV/Tuner do you have??? You may have to just use PLII mode if the TV/Tuner does not have an optical out...This is another plus of using a seperate tuner...which is still an option...



All I have is the built in ATSC/QAM Tuner in my Samsung LN-T4665F LCD. It has an optical out, but it only outputs 2 channel stereo. Not really sure what the wisdom is behind that.


----------



## Splicer010

Looks like you may be stuck with PLII then...ALOT better than just PL...Though this spec makes it sound like the optical will output 5.1 it will only do 2.0:



> Quote:
> Digital Audio: The optical digital output on the rear panel will output Dolby Digital (when available) or 2 channel PCM.



AVRs don't have 'tuners' in them for audio only off OTA or QAM...The only other option is a seperate tuner that outputs 5.1 via either analog...coaxial..or optical...This is what I do...


----------



## bykes

What about the tuners that the Government is giving out coupons for? Do those have optical/coaxial outs?


----------



## Digital Rules

No, The gov't program guidelines stipulate "no" digital audio outputs. I'm surprised they even allowed S-Video.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I think Im gonna get a Channel Master 4220 and a Winegard 4400, and try them out on the roof. The xg91 really didnt cut the mustard for me, I like the DB2 better at that location.


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bykes* /forum/post/14135813
> 
> 
> What about the tuners that the Government is giving out coupons for? Do those have optical/coaxial outs?



eBay...search ATSC Tuner...


----------



## bykes

Thanks.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *n8wci* /forum/post/14134710
> 
> 
> Binging a 4228 reflector. "Yes, bare copper wire, not insulated. The idea is to make the sections one big reflector electrically.
> 
> Would 1/32" stainless TIG rod work the same electrically? It's bare, would be stronger, and last longer, and I have a few.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Steve



Heh, last longer than copper ? 4000 year old copper artifacts have been found that are in pretty excellent shape.







Copper conducts electric better than stainless steel, but if you want to use stainless steel, its more than good enough for connecting the reflector, just make a solid connection. On the galvanic corrosion scale, the zinc plating on the mesh would the first to go, but that may take decades on a home antenna, but maybe one season on a boat.


----------



## tobri7

I am looking to add a OTA antenna tp my Directv setup, and I need some help about how best to set it up.


My configuration now:


Two lines coming from dual lnb to a 3x4 multiswitch.


Three lines from multiswitch--2 to a DVR one to 2nd receiver.



I want to try to minimize the amount of new cable I need to install. I ;ive in an apartment, and can't drill any additional holes in the wall, and I already have one going in the door with flat cable.


Is a diplexer the best option? and should it go after the multiswitch?


Thanks for the help!!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/14136191
> 
> 
> No, The gov't program guidelines stipulate "no" digital audio outputs. I'm surprised they even allowed S-Video.




Yep, the FCC worked us, the consumers, over by specifying specific features only, no exceptions. If they had specified minimal features required instead, we probably would have had features like 5.1 digital audio, hdmi output etc for little to no additional cost.














A lot of the chips in the converter boxes were designed with extra features in mind.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I think Im gonna get a Channel Master 4220 and a Winegard 4400, and try them out on the roof. The xg91 really didnt cut the mustard for me, I like the DB2 better at that location.



IIRC, youre in the middle of a pseudo-jungle. In that case, the bow-tie and hoverman design antennas are better for you. They have a larger "catch area" which IMO would increase your chances of getting the signal over the yagi and corner reflector yagi design models.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Ive come to that same conclusion, as Ive gathered more knowledge, over the past couple of weeks.











The xg91 was more usable during the winter when I first put it up, the spring and summer leaves however, have changed the equation.


----------



## The Hound




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bykes* /forum/post/14135281
> 
> 
> All I have is the built in ATSC/QAM Tuner in my Samsung LN-T4665F LCD. It has an optical out, but it only outputs 2 channel stereo. Not really sure what the wisdom is behind that.



Have you tried running the optical into your receiver to see if you get 5.1?

There's no reason for an optical out if it doesn't carry the 5.1.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *The Hound* /forum/post/14140051
> 
> 
> Have you tried running the optical into your receiver to see if you get 5.1?
> 
> There's no reason for an optical out if it doesn't carry the 5.1.



Yep, and make sure the receiver is set for 5.1. Also, the station has to be transmitting 5.1.


----------



## SkiSmuggs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bykes* /forum/post/14135281
> 
> 
> All I have is the built in ATSC/QAM Tuner in my Samsung LN-T4665F LCD. It has an optical out, but it only outputs 2 channel stereo. Not really sure what the wisdom is behind that.



The two above posts are right on. Not all digital programming is 5.1. I have optical output on my TV that I run into a receiver and get 5.1 when the show is broadcast with 5.1.


----------



## RadicalRik

I'm sure that somewhere in this thread is coaxial cable recommendations, but I'm not skilled on how to find them.


I need a recommendation on a good quality "outdoor rated" quad-shield RG-6 coax cable.

The brand and where to purchase it. I will need probably 250 ft. or so for the antenna's downlead and one other outdoor run up to a second floor. I like the type that lasts outdoors for years...


I have some right now, but it only has an aluminum foil shield under an aluminum outer "braid" if you could even call it a braid... It has "Belden" on it's coating, but I've used RG-6 with way better braiding that that...it's just a few strands looks like aluminum hair.


Any recommendation of brand, type and where to purchase would be appreciated.

I used to know all the best coax places back when I was a Ham, but I've forgotten them all.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RadicalRik* /forum/post/14141377
> 
> 
> I'm sure that somewhere in this thread is coaxial cable recommendations, but I'm not skilled on how to find them.
> 
> 
> I need a recommendation on a good quality "outdoor rated" quad-shield RG-6 coax cable.
> 
> The brand and where to purchase it. I will need probably 250 ft. or so for the antenna's downlead and one other outdoor run up to a second floor. I like the type that lasts outdoors for years...
> 
> 
> I have some right now, but it only has an aluminum foil shield under an aluminum outer "braid" if you could even call it a braid... It has "Belden" on it's coating, but I've used RG-6 with way better braiding that that...it's just a few strands looks like aluminum hair.
> 
> 
> Any recommendation of brand, type and where to purchase would be appreciated.
> 
> I used to know all the best coax places back when I was a Ham, but I've forgotten them all.



There is a Belden Tri-Shield cable that I have seen highly recommended, especially if you have concerns with signal ingress. It is claimed to be a better option to quad shield. "Belden 7915A"
https://www.tselectronic.com/belden/...fb26bdd08ac2c3 

I have only seen it available in 500 foot increments. I will probably buy some when I add a 2nd antenna to my system, but the Carol Cable I am using from Home Depot is working OK for me at this time.


Glen


----------



## RadicalRik




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/14141633
> 
> 
> There is a Belden Tri-Shield cable that I have seen highly recommended, especially if you have concerns with signal ingress. It is claimed to be a better option to quad shield. "Belden 7915A"
> https://www.tselectronic.com/belden/...fb26bdd08ac2c3
> 
> I have only seen it available in 500 foot increments. I will probably buy some when I add a 2nd antenna to my system, but the Carol Cable I am using from Home Depot is working OK for me at this time.
> 
> 
> Glen



Thanks Glen.

This Tri-Shield looks better than the Belden I currently have.

However, there is no mention of "outdoor" use. Some coax is rated "thru-wall" and is not reccommended for outdoor use. The outdoor-rated cable generally speaks about the outer coating as UV resistant or "buriable" and such.

It would be nice if tselectronic stated in the description if this tri-shield is for outdoor use.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RadicalRik* /forum/post/14142198
> 
> 
> Thanks Glen.
> 
> This Tri-Shield looks better than the Belden I currently have.
> 
> However, there is no mention of "outdoor" use. Some coax is rated "thru-wall" and is not reccommended for outdoor use. The outdoor-rated cable generally speaks about the outer coating as UV resistant or "buriable" and such.
> 
> It would be nice if tselectronic stated in the description if this tri-shield is for outdoor use.



There is no mention of any UV or underground uses. I am assuming it is a given with their products. I didn't see any mention of it on their website. http://www.belden.com/03Products/03_Coaxial.cfm


----------



## lovebohn

If your looking for online sources of coax tselectronics is nice to work with. Just send an email over they reply back fast if you have any questions.


Markertek, Westlake Electronic and Full Compass have always been good to work with to.



I also use Belden 1694a on all of my coax runs, but my antenna is attic mounted.


----------



## RadicalRik




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lovebohn* /forum/post/14143178
> 
> 
> If your looking for online sources of coax tselectronics is nice to work with. Just send an email over they reply back fast if you have any questions.
> 
> 
> Markertek, Westlake Electronic and Full Compass have always been good to work with to.
> 
> 
> 
> I also use Belden 1694a on all of my coax runs, but my antenna is attic mounted.



The Belden 1694A it seems, is the top-of-the-line recommended "sweep-tested" to 3.0 Ghz (some say 4.0 Ghz) RG-6 coax. It's also the most expensive @ $0.50 per foot. You are using the best their is.


According to the Westlake Elec. tech, the Belden 7915A is "sweep-tested" to the 3.0 Ghz range as well. The difference being that it's cheaper @ $0.20 per foot.


According to other sites specs on the Belden in the "Durobond II" category and is outdoor rated with UV resistant coating. The Westlake Elec. tech also said that the 1694A is more highly rated than the quad-shield types, because he states that is pretty much thought of as "old school technology" now...perhaps with the exception of the bury-able types.


I saw that what I have is Belden 1829A and is not bad, but only sweep-rated to 2.25 Ghz. I would just go ahead and use it if I had more than 50 ft. left.


Thanks for the supplier tips. Westlake is a good source and good price, but they have no 7915A in stock.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bykes* /forum/post/14135281
> 
> 
> All I have is the built in ATSC/QAM Tuner in my Samsung LN-T4665F LCD. It has an optical out, but it only outputs 2 channel stereo. Not really sure what the wisdom is behind that.



Page 11 in the User Manual for LN-T4665F says it supports 5.1CH output via Optical.

However, only a few select programs, mostly in primetime, transmit 5.1CH

with all 6 channels actually populated....many are 2.0 within 5.1.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jon_J* /forum/post/14128543
> 
> 
> I have a channel master 4221 and decided *Not* to use the Balun that comes with it. It is the same Balun you mentioned.
> 
> The reason I'm using a different Balun is because the Balun that comes with the CM 4221 has long leads. Don't these leads act like "twin lead" antenna wire?
> 
> I have terrible multipath problems at my location in my attic, so I'm thinking the indoor Balun with short leads from our local cable co. would perform better.
> 
> Am I correct, or would you recommend I use the Balun supplied with my CM 4221?
> 
> *Edit*
> 
> After looking at your excel file: "Balun Loss Using TWC-SD Freqs RevC.xls"
> 
> I decided to use my RMS branded Balun (model # CA-2600F). It is a very fat one compared to most others, and has real short leads.
> 
> I also have a Sega Balun, which came with my Sega Master System, or Genesis.



The "twin-lead" wires on a Balun are no more of a problem than the "twin-lead"

feed structures within your CM4221. Cut 'em a little bit shorter if you like....


If the antenna is outdoors, an "indoor" balun may eventually soak up moisture and cause problems.....


----------



## PCTools

Depending on your length of run, you can get 100' of RG-11 with the ends on it for $29.99 for Rick Wertman. (on the forums).


For that price you cannot go wrong! (30 Cents a foot)



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RadicalRik* /forum/post/14143907
> 
> 
> The Belden 1694A it seems, is the top-of-the-line recommended "sweep-tested" to 3.0 Ghz (some say 4.0 Ghz) RG-6 coax. It's also the most expensive @ $0.50 per foot. You are using the best their is.


----------



## lovebohn

I used 1694a in my new construction due to the main video rack feeding component and RGBHV video signals to different locations in the house. The small run to the OTA antenna in the attic was the left over cable. I also bought the cable a few years back and was only around $0.28/foot.


----------



## RadicalRik

I just purchased 500 feet of 7915A from Broadband Utopia for $68.82.

I did not, however purchase the the RG-6 kit with all new tools and Thomas & Betts Snap-N-Seal fittings for $48.00. I already have a good stripper and professional-grade hex crimper, so I've been using the gold crimp-on connectors from Radio Shack.


I hope that this in not going to be a cause for loss or a diminishing in performance...

$48 is expensive for a whole new tool kit and 10 RG-6 fittings. The gold crimp-on connectors from Radio Shack seem to have worked fine. On the only outdoor fitting up on the antenna where it's connected to the balun, that is siliconed and taped with 3M UV resistant tape and is completely water and weather-proof.


However, the "crimp-on" type F-connectors (gold or otherwise) seem to have fallen out of favor and many have stopped carrying them in favor of the more high-end (and more expensive) snap seal type with guides and o-rings and such.


Am I out-of step here? With everything digital, high-def, ultra-high frequency... are my old-school F-connectors a cause for concern? Do I need to invest inthese high-end connectors and tools?


----------



## RadicalRik




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/14149394
> 
> 
> F connectors are fine. You would waterproof the connector with dielectric paste, coax seal, rubber boot outside.
> 
> 
> Compression has its start up costs and the fittings are expensive in comparison. may buy the tools and a bag of 50 fittings and end up using them in no time reworking all the connections.
> 
> 
> ppc makes a good fitting. they are headquarted here.
> 
> 
> for example
> 
> ppc ex6xl $16.50
> 
> tool available at lowes ideal brand
> 
> 2 level wirestripper $19 also available at lowes...Ideal brand
> 
> 
> for rcg 6, I use vextra v621 single solid copper and belden 7915A where I need shieled protection
> 
> http://sadoun.com/Sat/Order/Install/Stripper.htm
> 
> http://sadoun.com/Sat/Products/Insta...e-Stripper.htm
> 
> http://sadoun.com/Sat/Products/Perfe...ssion-tool.htm
> 
> http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Products/S...ual_rg6_60.htm



Is the compression tool $59 at Lowes as it is at sandoun.com?

The 50 fittings are reasonable as is the stripper, but the compression tool seems rather pricey.


----------



## Jon_J

Menards has this tool for $59.95

Paladin SealTite® Pro Crimper
http://www.paladin-tools.com/view_to...&parent_id=138 

It claims to work with all manufacturer's compression fittings.

I have only purchased the Paladin fittings that are on the same shelf as the tool, so I don't know how well this tool works with "other" compression fittings. The package includes a long list of fittings/settings to use with other manufacturer's compression fittings.

This tool seems to work fairly well. I haven't used any other compression tool.

The instructions are a bit confusing at first, you need to switch the position of the "head", as it is in the position for setting RCA/BNC fittings as it comes out of the package.

There also seems to be some minor conflicts in the head adjusting position as stated in the instructions. A setting that causes the compression that is "too much" will result in the metal ring behind the 'O' ring to separate from the body of the fitting, resulting in a loose ring that will slide down your coax.

Some trial & error is needed to get familiar with this tool.

I replaced about 10 of my old "crimp" style fittings on RG6 coax that were made with a cheap Magnavox crimping tool, also sold at Menards.


----------



## RadicalRik




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/14150914
> 
> 
> The compression tool sold at Lowes is very similar to the ultraseal in the example I gave...possibly the same tool. I purchased that tool at lowes in a pinch and it has held up great. That tool is the top end tool at my distributor
> 
> 
> lowes also sells the 2 way stripper just as in the sadoun example...also the ideal brand.
> 
> 
> I do not suggest the lower end ppc compression fittings at lowes though (silver with blue) .
> 
> 
> ask saldoun for a kit price including a bag of fittings...



Thanks Rick...

I ordered a compression tool, 3-blade stripper and a bag of 50 PPC EX6XL F-connectors from sandoun.

I didn't need the cutters as I already have a pair just like with the double-notch head as compared to the regular diagonal cutters. It all came out to about $46. I can both change out my old "ends" over time and use these new type for my upcoming installations of feeding another room, making a couple patch length cables and eventially a new downlead from the antenna.


----------



## Splicer010

In the trade...PPC is known as...Piss Poor Connectors...


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/14147912
> 
> 
> Depending on your length of run, you can get 100' of RG-11 with the ends on it for $29.99 for Rick Wertman. (on the forums).
> 
> 
> For that price you cannot go wrong! (30 Cents a foot)



RG-11 is WAAAAAAY overkill for 100'...


----------



## RadicalRik




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/14151905
> 
> 
> In the trade...PPC is known as...Piss Poor Connectors...



I wish I would have known that before I ordered a bag of 50...

What are the good connectors then? I've seen some that are like $10 [F-Conn] or $20 each, but I'm not paying that.

Digicon are expensive. Thomas & Betts are expensive as well. What do you recommend?


----------



## Splicer010

Gilbert...But they aren't cheap either...But didn't you say you wanted something that will last years???


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Question for the experts:


Is this a good model to test signal levels for digital and analog television broadcasts? And is it fairly simple to use? I want to get something to use in my indoor antenna shootout....so I can get some instrument measured data....aka hard facts.



Sencore SLM 1453i


----------



## mrow2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/14150914
> 
> 
> The compression tool sold at Lowes is very similar to the ultraseal in the example I gave...possibly the same tool. I purchased that tool at lowes in a pinch and it has held up great. That tool is the top end tool at my distributor
> 
> 
> lowes also sells the 2 way stripper just as in the sadoun example...also the ideal brand.
> 
> 
> I do not suggest the lower end ppc compression fittings at lowes though (silver with blue) .
> 
> 
> ask saldoun for a kit price including a bag of fittings...



I went to our local Orvac Electronics supply. Lots of help there, cable guys with a PT job, engineers etc. The expensive tools are there, and they have their favorites if the customer is a cableguy. But for a good all around job the guy said he regularly uses the Zenith ZDS 5060 Coaxial Connector Kit

http://www.thenewconnection.com/vi-5...s-ZDS5060.html 


which includes the compression tool and 10 gold connectors. It's reasonably priced, and I bought an extra dozen outdoor connectors and a two blade stripper to go with it, $40 total got me in business for making nice clean fittings. The compression tool feels right, cable fits in and out nicely and it's easy to use. We're talking digital TV here...the signal is there or it isn't. If it's marginal then perhaps look at the extra high end cable but most likely you're going to have good days and plenty of bad ones. But I'd bet if you use this device and the outdoor fittings that are readily available, you'll have no complaints. Out with the RG-59!


Rick's advice re: using rubber boots and dialectric paste seems real good, I will add it to my system. Decent cable with good performance and good clean connectors, it's going to work. The tech at Orvac added that it is a good thing to slip a weatherproof heat-shrink over the cable prior to tightening for final weatherproofing. If you are dealing with a 60-signal to begin with, the best cable and connectors are not going to lock in the picture. Good clean fittings & cable vs old wire and yesterday's fittings can make a difference in my opinion. 50-cent cable where 30-cent cable will perform just as well makes no sense to me unless you have it on hand as the one participant did. A $60 - $80 crimp and compression tool is pretty and nice to use but the one I bought feels good and works very well. If I decide to become a DishTV or CableCo installer then I'll get one. Most can afford a $40 investment to get into the business of making your connections tight, effective and pretty. So far I've replaced two crucial cables and fittings, and done some tidying up where there was a coil of cable that was just adding footage and nothing more. Now I have 15' of Tri-shield to use somewhere else.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The HDTVexpert chimes in on Spectrum Analyzers.


NO MORE HIT-OR MISS


Spectrum analyzers should be an essential part of your toolkit


by Peter H. Putman, CTS

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/hitormiss.htm 



I love that fellows site. I wonder if he posts here.


----------



## RadicalRik




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/14152875
> 
> 
> Gilbert...But they aren't cheap either...But didn't you say you wanted something that will last years???



Which of the variety of Corning Gilbert connectors to you recommend? UltraSeal or UltraEase or what? What is your opinion or experience with the "Snap-N-Seal" or the Digicon S-series? It's probably too late to cancel my order of Pretty Crappy Connectors, but I can make a note of the exact best before I order the next time.


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RadicalRik* /forum/post/14154084
> 
> 
> Which of the variety of Corning Gilbert connectors to you recommend? UltraSeal or UltraEase or what? What is your opinion or experience with the "Snap-N-Seal" or the Digicon S-series? It's probably too late to cancel my order of Pretty Crappy Connectors, but I can make a note of the exact best before I order the next time.



Either are excellent choices...SNS or 'Snap-N-Seal' are also excellent...Forget the Digicon crap...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> stick with your purchase...the ppc exl line is fine.
> 
> 
> I probably used a bag in my setup in the picture alone.



Professional looking job in that first pic...










I can't tell you how many homes I have been to...to replace the PPC connectors that were causing a multitude of issues...including...but not limited to...ingress and egress...You haven't been in the trade very long...if at all...with a comment like this:



> Quote:
> I have not heard anything negative in that regards to ppc in the trade.



Yes they work...Pain to *properly* install...Won't last the 'years' he is looking for...especially if used outdoors...


----------



## 2bdefacto

I recently had an outdoor antenna installed. It is the Stealth model, outside mounted with an amplifier connected close to the antenna. Instead of using a seperate cable the installer integrated it with the existing Satellite Dish cable. It was then hooked up to my HDTV. Besides the Satellite channels I have 37 DTV plus another 12 air. The picture on the DTV channels look good. The problem comes in at "I am no longer able to use my VCR to record on any channels both Satellite and Antenna". Prior to this I used my VCR to record programs but now the signal is terrible and goes in and out, The installer is using the TV selection on my Samsung for the outdoor antenna and the other 2 selections on my TV is for the Satellite cable and my DVD player, The installer told me I needed an amplifier or a preamp for the VCR. Does this make sense and do you think it would solve the problem?


----------



## Splicer010

You can connect either the antenna or the satellite to the VCR input...then VCR out to TV...One or the other...No other equipment is necessary...Unless you want to record from both...not at the same time of course...you can use an A-B switch that the antenna & satellite connect to...then the output to the VCR input...then the VCR output to the TV...


Running either/or thru the VCR however will prevent any HD viewing using those sources...


----------



## EscapeVelocity

CM 4220 came in today.


What is the best way to attach the balun to the CM 4220? Straight down the middle, around back of the bowtie pole? The balun seems to fit perfectly in the recessed area between the bowties at the bottom of the face. Should the balun wires not cross the feedlines or each other?


----------



## 300ohm

Is that a picture of your set-up, or just a generic picture ? The balun looks fine in that picture. You want to prevent water from getting into the balun and coax.

Id be interested in seeing a closeup of that plastic stand-off that holds up the bow-tie.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Ill snap one tommorrow. I only have it half way mounted as Ill be testing a Winegard 4400 out at that location as well. How do you upload a pic and have it auto display 300ohm? Instead of as an attachment you click on.


----------



## mrow2

Are PPC EX6 fittings like the XL and are they ok to use?


----------



## AntAltMike

EX6s are a little shorter and can't be compressed with fixed barrel length tools that match the EX6XL and most other compression connectors, unless you shim them with a couple of the tiny nuts that come with F81 barrel splices.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> How do you upload a pic and have it auto display 300ohm? Instead of as an attachment you click on.



Upload the pic to a site like imageshack and post the direct link in the "Insert Image" icon on this posting reply screen.


(also for good posting etiquette, reduce the byte size of the picture with something like pixresizer. Imageshack can also reduce the byte size on the upload)


----------



## 300ohm

I just got my Channel Master 0264 preamp from Solid Signal. (with channels 12 and 6 coming back in Feb, it was the model that made sense for me). It came with absolutely no manual or even quick install instructions.


Does anyone know how to adjust the supposed adjustable FM trap in it ? Under the cover there is a switch for the FM trap that reads IN or OUT. But I dont see anything that is a tuneable type adjustment.


Edit: Under bright sunlight, I did find a tiny yellow adjustable pot. But it was covered with that stuff to prevent movement. Is this the adjustment ?


----------



## 2bdefacto

Hey Splicer, thanks for your response. I do have an AB splitter going to the VCR then to the TV but when I use the TV alone the picture is fine, when I select the option on my HDTV's remote for using the VCR the signal gets terrible if any signal at all. Do you think having an preamp or amp behind my TV, aside from the one outside might help this?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

What bite size should I use? Im using 320x240 and 640x480 re-sized pics. Is that about right?


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *2bdefacto* /forum/post/14165051
> 
> 
> Hey Splicer, thanks for your response. I do have an AB splitter going to the VCR then to the TV but when I use the TV alone the picture is fine, when I select the option on my HDTV's remote for using the VCR the signal gets terrible if any signal at all. Do you think having an preamp or amp behind my TV, aside from the one outside might help this?



Depending on the type of A-B switch...manual or electronic...make sure it is switched to the desired source...Then be sure to have the TV tuned to channel 3 or 4...whichever channel the VCR is set to output on...Or if using the VCR composite connection...that the proper input on the TV is selected...


It dosent sound like you need an amp...especially if you already have one...Another thing...Make sure the TV/VCR button is on TV to use the TV tuner...VCR to use the built in tuner...Also make sure if using Satellite and that if using the coaxial connection...that the VCR tuner is set to either channel 3 or 4...whatever the sat box is set to output on...If using composite make sure the VCR is set on the appropriate input...Hope this helps...


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I ordered 2 of these from Solid Signal.


Pico Macom UVSJ UHF VHF Band Separator/Combiner for Antenna (UVSJ)

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ 



but recieved 2 of these.


Holland Electronics, UVSJ, UHF/VHF: Separator/Combiner

http://www.hollandelectronics.com/ca...PERATOR-JOINER 


What's up with that?




Also, what is the difference between a diplexer and a seperator/combiner and a splitter?


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Also, what is the difference between a diplexer and a seperator/combiner and a splitter?



Nothing worth noting...A splitter can be used as a combiner and a combiner can be used as a splitter...


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14166363
> 
> 
> I ordered 2 of these from Solid Signal.
> 
> 
> Pico Macom UVSJ UHF VHF Band Separator/Combiner for Antenna (UVSJ)
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ
> 
> 
> 
> but recieved 2 of these.
> 
> 
> Holland Electronics, UVSJ, UHF/VHF: Separator/Combiner
> 
> http://www.hollandelectronics.com/ca...PERATOR-JOINER
> 
> 
> What's up with that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, what is the difference between a diplexer and a seperator/combiner and a splitter?



UHF Loss for Holland UVSJ says "0.7 dB Typical"
http://www.hollandelectronics.com/ca...-Diplexers.pdf 

whereas Pico UVSJ says "0.5 dB MAX" (Q: Presumably all across the UHF band???):
http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf 


Presuming Pico specs are accurate, the Holland device "typically" has 0.2 dB (OR MORE)

UHF loss than the MAX loss in the Pico....so Holland device may have perhaps 0.5 dB higher loss.


Will you actually see any difference....doubtful....

but you should complain anyway re the substitution....


============================

A conventional RF Combiner/Splitter uses a wideband, balanced hybrid transformer which has

about 0.5+ dB insertion loss ONLY when the two input signals are EQUAL strength and IN-PHASE.

If not, it has about 3.5+ dB insertion loss, due to imbalanced signals being dissipated in an internal resistor.


A "Diplexer" or "Band Separator" is the same thing. It uses a pair of low-loss band pass filters

in parallel to separate frequency bands. In the UVSJ, a VHF filter sends only VHF signals to the VHF port

and similarly a UHF filter for UHF signals. In a TV/SAT Diplexer, one filter is used for TV band

(below 803 MHz) and a second filter for SAT (above).


----------



## Digital Rules

A seperator/combiner is a better choice if it fits your needs. A standard 2 way splitter usually has 3-4 db insertion loss; vs. a 0.5 db insertion loss with a seperator/combiner. Plus, a seperator /combiner like the UVSJ can help filter out of band signals from getting in to your system.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks Hollands and Digital Rules! I called SS, and the gal there said that she would look into it and call me back. She didnt seem to understand why the switch was made. If I wanted any old junk, I would have gone down to the True Value.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is a pic of my newly assembled Winegard 4400. I dont think the build quality matches that of the Channel Master. Also the Channel Master came preassembled. Winegard 4400, some assembly required. Also, the picture led me to believe that a mast mount was included, it was not. Furthermore the brass plated steel bolts didnt come with matching nuts and washers...those were steel. One more thing, some of the front element assembly's elements/whiskers didnt fold out perpendicular to the sub-mast....the plastic behind them has grooves which the elements/whiskers settle into for support.


The front post and the back post come preassembled, but you have to twist out the elements and then join them together.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

300ohm,


Here are the pics of the CM 4220. I liked that it came pre-assembled, and the quality materials. The reflector screen is pretty hefty and stout. Also the reflector screen seems to be out of a flat plane.


As you can see, its either brass or brass plated steel that spaces the bow tie assembly from the reflector.


Please excuse the quickie ghetto mount.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14167556
> 
> 
> 
> Also the reflector screen seems to be out of a flat plane.



For what it's worth, the reflectors on CM's 4 bay and 8 bay are bowed too, not in a plane. The really curious thing is that on one the edges bend towards the front, and on the other they bend away from the front.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14167381
> 
> 
> ...She didnt seem to understand why the switch was made. If I wanted any old junk, I would have gone down to the True Value.



Most webstores show the Pico Macom UVSJ as discontinued by the manufacturer. That must be the reason for the subsitution at SolidSignal. I placed an order for some of them last week, from a different store, whose webpage showed them in stock, only to get an email that said they had been discontinued and that they would update the webpage.


----------



## 300ohm

Thanks for the detail pics, EscapeVelocity.


I always thought the reflector edge bends on the CM 4220 were backwards, and with the detail pics showing the vertical wires on the grid being closest to the elements, instead of the horizontal wires, it confirms my suspisions that the reflector is backwards overall.


I wonder why they did it that way. Is it because of the way it mounts to the pole ?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Yeah, it seem to me the end would bend forward. Are you saying that the horizontal wires on the reflector(fencing) should be on the forward side for best performance? Why is that?


----------



## spokybob

The 4220 & the 4221 both have the screens curved forward, then the last row bent backwards as shown in EV's 2nd pic.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Are you saying that the horizontal wires on the reflector(fencing) should be on the forward side for best performance? Why is that?



Yeah. North American TV is a horizontally polarized transmission. To me, it makes sense for the signal to hit the horizontal wires first as they are the most important. Im sure it only makes a teeny tiny difference though. But it makes the whole reflector look like its assembled backwards to me.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I think that Solid Signal should pony up some Blonder ZUVSJ's as substitute for my Pico-Macom's if they are out of stock. Hopefully they will have some, but if not, Ill take the Blonder ZUVSJ's.


----------



## holl_ands

Pico-Macom phone number is at bottom of the spec sheet....give 'em a call to find a retailer.


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14162810
> 
> 
> I just got my Channel Master 0264 preamp from Solid Signal. (with channels 12 and 6 coming back in Feb, it was the model that made sense for me). It came with absolutely no manual or even quick install instructions.
> 
> 
> Does anyone know how to adjust the supposed adjustable FM trap in it ? Under the cover there is a switch for the FM trap that reads IN or OUT. But I dont see anything that is a tuneable type adjustment.
> 
> 
> Edit: Under bright sunlight, I did find a tiny yellow adjustable pot. But it was covered with that stuff to prevent movement. Is this the adjustment ?



It should be right next to the FM trap switch it is a small round trimmer capacitor. Mine has a line pointing right to it that says tunable trap


----------



## fajitamosaic

Advice needed regarding pre-amp for an indoor antenna...


Here's the situation: I live in a basement apartment. In the living room, we can easily place an antenna in the window, no problems there. In the bedroom, we can't, our best options are atop a bookcase or a doorframe away from the window.


I know set-top-box signal indicators don't mean much, but what we're getting right now is 2 to 4 bars (out of 10) for a couple channels, and 1 to 2 bars for a couple others. The "stronger" channels actually come in with few dropouts, while the "weaker" channels register a near-constant weak signal message with the rare appearance of a frame or two of image.


I've tried a few different antennas and numerous placement locations within the room. We've hit upon what we think is the best antenna and placement (atop a doorframe, hah!). Now, I'm to the point where my brain is going "hey, maybe amplification is what's needed!"


We'd just like to boost everything, in the hopes that these weak channels will finally come in.


I'd like to buy something locally if possible, and not overspend on something with 4 to 8 outputs when all I need to do is amplify the signal to one set-top-box. Radio Shack sells an in-line amplifier for $40+, which is a little more than I'd like to spend. Local Ace Hardware has the Channel Master 3044. Decent price at $27, but four outputs seems like overkill...


We have Radio Shack, Ace, Truvalue, Wal-Mart, Meijer, Menards, Best Buy, and Circuit City around here, among others.


Suggestions???


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Radio Shack sells an in-line amplifier for $40+, which is a little more than I'd like to spend. Local Ace Hardware has the Channel Master 3044. Decent price at $27, but four outputs seems like overkill...



The Radio Shack one for $40 is pure junk. I ascertained today that it is exactly the same one I bought a decade ago for $18.99. Even when it was working right, no amplification was noticed. It makes too much internal noise of its own, and in some cases, can cut signal.


The Channel Master 3044 is a distribution amp. Unless your splitting the line to various TVs, youre mostly going to amplify noise.

Channel Master makes the lowest noise preamps that are commonly available. But they start at about $45 plus shipping.


But the thing is, if you cant get a decent signal with a short cable from the antenna, any amp is going to mostly amplify noise. Preamps are used to compensate for line, splitter, balun etc losses. (and help with the tuners noise figure too, depending on the set)


I would say, keep looking around for some creative antenna placement.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mclapp* /forum/post/14170156
> 
> 
> It should be right next to the FM trap switch it is a small round trimmer capacitor. Mine has a line pointing right to it that says tunable trap



Thanks mclapp.

Ill look for the line. Its so tiny I thought it was pot, but may be a trimmer capacitor, which makes sense. And it has that adjustment glue all over it.


On to adjusting it.










My problem is I have two strong FM stations, 92.9 and 94.7mhz about 1.5 miles from me. They are about 90 degrees away from the direction of my channel 6 TV station 82-88mhz, 61 miles away -87.7dbm (2/19/09 digital TVfool).

Many years ago, they caused very strong interference on channel 6 analog. But they must have done something, because the interference has lessened over the years.


I have no RF testing equipment. To fine tune the FM trap, I plan to hook up the preamp to rabbit ears and output to an FM radio tuned to those stations. Then adjust for maximum attenuation. (Since they are strong stations, that may not even be humanly possible) And hopefully, I wont affect the gain on channel 6.


Sound good ? Any other suggestions ?


Also, does IN mean the FM trap is ON and OUT mean the FM trap is OFF ???


----------



## Digital Rules

YES!!


"*IN*" is "*ON*" & "*OUT*" is "*OFF*"

Do you have any impulse noise issues with channel 6 at that distance?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Do you have any impulse noise issues with channel 6 at that distance?



Impulse noise ? How would you define that ? A long time ago, I did get modulation crosstalk from those FM stations, which was very plain to see, but those FM stations seemed to have resolved that.


What I do get on analog channel 6 right now is a snowy white vertical line on the picture, that moves from left to right at about 3-4 seconds per cycle. Its followed by a much dimmer second snowy white vertical line by about 1/6th of the screen later. (most likely a ghost of the first white vertical line)


But this also happens on my analog channel 3, so its probably not the FM stations. No vertical lines on my analog channels 10 and 12.


I guess Im going to have to investigate the source of that vertical white line, as my digital channel 6 is moving back to real channel 6 in February, and that interference may cause me problems.


----------



## bozey45

Sounds like adjacent channel; if you have a channel 5 or 7 close by could be the cause of this type of interferrence ; I get a channel 44 here locally and if channel 43, out of this area, isn't pinpointed with my antenna it causes the same thing to happen.


----------



## 300ohm

Nope, no adjacent channels to my channels 6 or 3.


----------



## ctdish

It does sound like overload. If it occured in an amp it could be from any strong channel.

John


----------



## 300ohm

I get that white vertical line with unamplified antennas. The line is also steady as it scans across, meaning it doesnt modulate as if there was a voice signal on it.


Hmm, I do have a 300 foot State Police tower about a quarter of a mile behind me. I wonder if theyre using any frequencies that are close ?


I also have an Air Force base about 8 miles away, that also does weather sweeps for the local region. I dont recall having the white lines before the invention of doppler radar, and the lines are about 3-4 seconds per left to right sweep across the screen. Hmmm.


----------



## alphanguy

Well, I just put up my second XG-91 for my double stack. I tried vertical, no improvement... horizontal at various spacing.. VERY little improvement. then I just just sat one antenna on top of the other, piggyback style, with the top antenna extending about 10 inches in front of the bottom one. So they are touching, attached together with duct tape and zip ties.... lined up vertically and horizontally, just staggered front to back with about a 10 inch offset. And it gives me consistent improvment of signal strength by about 15 percent across the board. I'm watching digital stations from 120 miles right now as I type this. Everyone keep talking about how these things have to be in phase, but the piggyback in the only thing that works for me. Any explanations? ( I DID make my two downleads EXACTLY the same length, to the 16th of an inch)


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14180226
> 
> 
> Impulse noise ? How would you define that ? .



Interference from overhead power lines; or any other man made electrical interference. Does the problem go away when it rains?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alphanguy* /forum/post/14182295
> 
> 
> Well, I just put up my second XG-91 for my double stack. I tried vertical, no improvement... horizontal at various spacing.. VERY little improvement. then I just just sat one antenna on top of the other, piggyback style, with the top antenna extending about 10 inches in front of the bottom one. So they are touching, attached together with duct tape and zip ties.... lined up vertically and horizontally, just staggered front to back with about a 10 inch offset. And it gives me consistent improvment of signal strength by about 15 percent across the board. I'm watching digital stations from 120 miles right now as I type this. Everyone keep talking about how these things have to be in phase, but the piggyback in the only thing that works for me. Any explanations? ( I DID make my two downleads EXACTLY the same length, to the 16th of an inch)



Assuming you have identical coax cable lengths to the combiner, it sounds like the baluns could be out of phase. You should be able to open one up and reverse the polarity if I'm not mistaken. It should be easy to tell: out of phase will actually create a forward NULL. Once properly set up, I think you'll find horizontal to give the best result.


----------



## 300ohm

I believe the problem still remains when it rains, but Ill double check on the next rainfall.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> So they are touching, attached together with duct tape and zip ties....



Heh, test for vhf-hi performance.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14167556
> 
> 
> As you can see, its either brass or brass plated steel that spaces the bow tie assembly from the reflector.



More likely, it's anodized aluminum.


Ron


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alphanguy* /forum/post/14182295
> 
> 
> I just just sat one antenna on top of the other, piggyback style, with the top antenna extending about 10 inches in front of the bottom one. So they are touching, attached together with duct tape and zip ties.... lined up vertically and horizontally, just staggered front to back with about a 10 inch offset.



Could you post a picture? I'm just not getting what you have done from the description. Maybe it's just too early on a Sunday morning, or something.


----------



## alphanguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/14182496
> 
> 
> Assuming you have identical coax cable lengths to the combiner, it sounds like the baluns could be out of phase. You should be able to open one up and reverse the polarity if I'm not mistaken. It should be easy to tell: out of phase will actually create a forward NULL. Once properly set up, I think you'll find horizontal to give the best result.



I definately don't have any forward null.... this setup has increased my signal by about 15 percent over my single XG-91, while the vertical and horizontal stacks I did (according to everyone's instructions) didn't do a damn thing, except a 48 inch horizontal gave me about 5 percent improvement. And someone asked about hi-VHF... my lone high VHF is digital chanel 7, and it's coming in steady at 75 percent signal strength with this setup... no LOS, and 40 miles out. All my other channels are much mroe stable, and just for kicks, I switched over to see if there was improvement on analog as well, and my weakest station, which is 78 miles out, (channel 17) was crystal clear last night, when it ususally is snowy. I'm just saying the horizontal stack didn't impress me, but the piggyback sure does!


After thinking about it, I guess thye aren't lined up vertically. When I attatched the top one to the bottom one, I rested the bottom of the "U" bracket, and the bottom of the reflector grid on the boom of the lower one. The BACK of the reflector grid on the top unit is touching the FRONT of the reflector grid on the bottom unit. So this makes the top antenna point at a downward angle compared to the bottom one. Techincally, it's not supposed to work, but it damn well does!!!


----------



## ctdish

The vertical line sounds like the vertical sync from an analog TV signal which is why I suspected overload. They can also come from another channel 6 on the same channel but that is unlikely. It could also be a ghost.

John



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14181607
> 
> 
> I get that white vertical line with unamplified antennas. The line is also steady as it scans across, meaning it doesnt modulate as if there was a voice signal on it.
> 
> Hmmm.


----------



## Konrad2

> As you can see, its either brass or brass plated steel

> that spaces the bow tie assembly from the reflector.


Might be steel with yellow chromate? If a magnet sticks

it is steel.


----------



## Konrad2

> I just just sat one antenna on top of the other, piggyback

> style, with the top antenna extending about 10 inches in

> front of the bottom one. So they are touching, attached

> together with duct tape and zip ties.... lined up vertically

> and horizontally, just staggered front to back with about a

> 10 inch offset.


Sounds like a vertical version of the "two antenna trick":

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html#TAT 


Although being so close, they are surely modifying each other's

reception pattern. If it works be happy.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks for that tid bit Konrad.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alphanguy* /forum/post/14183891
> 
> 
> I definately don't have any forward null.... this setup has increased my signal by about 15 percent over my single XG-91, while the vertical and horizontal stacks I did (according to everyone's instructions) didn't do a damn thing, except a 48 inch horizontal gave me about 5 percent improvement. And someone asked about hi-VHF... my lone high VHF is digital chanel 7, and it's coming in steady at 75 percent signal strength with this setup... no LOS, and 40 miles out. All my other channels are much mroe stable, and just for kicks, I switched over to see if there was improvement on analog as well, and my weakest station, which is 78 miles out, (channel 17) was crystal clear last night, when it ususally is snowy. I'm just saying the horizontal stack didn't impress me, but the piggyback sure does!
> 
> 
> After thinking about it, I guess thye aren't lined up vertically. When I attatched the top one to the bottom one, I rested the bottom of the "U" bracket, and the bottom of the reflector grid on the boom of the lower one. The BACK of the reflector grid on the top unit is touching the FRONT of the reflector grid on the bottom unit. So this makes the top antenna point at a downward angle compared to the bottom one. Techincally, it's not supposed to work, but it damn well does!!!



I was referring to a forward null resulting with the traditional configuration. There's really no telling what's happening now. If it works for you though...










If you ever go back "traditional" you might try swapping the polarity on one of the baluns to check your phase.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/14184058
> 
> 
> The vertical line sounds like the vertical sync from an analog TV signal which is why I suspected overload. They can also come from another channel 6 on the same channel but that is unlikely. It could also be a ghost.
> 
> John



But the line is also on channel 3, (but not on 10 and 12) and doesnt vary with trophospheric conditions.


But thanks for the suggestion. Its a puzzler. And Im curious to know if a noise like that seen on analog channel 6, will affect the digital channel 6 (real channel 6) in February. In February, without an analog picture to see the noise, something like that may be even harder to diagnose.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> And someone asked about hi-VHF... my lone high VHF is digital chanel 7, and it's coming in steady at 75 percent signal strength with this setup... no LOS, and 40 miles out.



Heh, I was half kidding about that, but had a hunch it may do well in that configuration for vhf-hi.


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14185655
> 
> 
> But the line is also on channel 3, (but not on 10 and 12) and doesnt vary with trophospheric conditions.
> 
> 
> But thanks for the suggestion. Its a puzzler. And Im curious to know if a noise like that seen on analog channel 6, will affect the digital channel 6 (real channel 6) in February. In February, without an analog picture to see the noise, something like that may be even harder to diagnose.



The reason people are suspecting overload is that for you to get a vertical line, the interference source has to be synchronized with the scan (or almost so), which means it's a TV signal also. So in February, you won't have the same noise.


If the only stations you have on VHF-Lo are 3 and 6, it's barely possible they're interfering with each other.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/14187251
> 
> 
> The reason people are suspecting overload is that for you to get a vertical line, the interference source has to be synchronized with the scan (or almost so), which means it's a TV signal also. So in February, you won't have the same noise.



I agree that the interference source must be an analog TV signal. It is possible that it is an LPTV station that is extremely close. It won't necessarily go dark in 2009. 300ohm lives somewhere near Dupont, DE. There is a channel 14 LPTV station within a few miles.


The intermod/crossmod may be due to interaction between his strong 94.9 FM station and an analog TV station.


Another possibility is two distinct causes. Channel 3 could be a VCR tuned to channel 3 interfering with the off air channel 3. Channel 6 would still be intermod.


----------



## videobruce

Wendell R. Breland; You have a PM.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/14188792
> 
> 
> I agree that the interference source must be an analog TV signal. It is possible that it is an LPTV station that is extremely close. It won't necessarily go dark in 2009. 300ohm lives somewhere near Dupont, DE. There is a channel 14 LPTV station within a few miles.
> 
> 
> The intermod/crossmod may be due to interaction between his strong 94.9 FM station and an analog TV station.
> 
> 
> Another possibility is two distinct causes. Channel 3 could be a VCR tuned to channel 3 interfering with the off air channel 3. Channel 6 would still be intermod.



Yep, that channel 14 station is about 3 miles away and about 90 degrees east away from the direction of channel 3 and 6. The 94.9 FM towers are about 3 miles away 90 degrees west of that direction. My antenna should have nulls at those points.


Right now, I use the DVR/VCR recorders tuner to get analog on AUX1. Turning off the CECB converter box and changing the TVs tuner to other channels doesnt get rid of that line. So I think the tuner interaction can be ruled out. Good point about it though.


If that interference is caused by channel 14, there doesnt seem to be much I can do about it, is there ???







(Curse WPVI for moving back to channel 6 in February, heh. And thank the maker channel 3 KYW had enough sense to stay on UHF.)

And if it is caused by channel 14 analog, would that cause me problems with digital channel 6 come February ?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14190112
> 
> 
> And if it is caused by channel 14 analog, would that cause me problems with digital channel 6 come February ?



Yes.


But 3 miles away from an LPTV station that you are aimed away from it is not likely to cause preamp overload.


I suspect that filtering out the strong FM station on 94.9 is a good first step. You may want a separate FM filter in addition to the one in your new preamp.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Can someone explain to me the effects of daytime vs nightime on television reception in UHF and VHF?


Thanks.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14192305
> 
> 
> Can someone explain to me the effects of daytime vs nightime on television reception in UHF and VHF?
> 
> 
> Thanks.



Usually, the temperature inversion will make reception better at dawn and the early evening hours. Afternoons are usually the worst for reception.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html 


Also look here under Fading : http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/G...yA.html#fading


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks again 300ohm.


Here is my performance rankings list based on my observations on the indoor antenna thread so far.
*

Updated*


Channel Master 4220 with CM 7777 amp on roof

DB2 with Channel Master 7777 amp on roof

RS 1880

RS DA-5200

RS 15-1892 UFO

Channel Master 4220 unamped indoors

DB2 unamped indoors

Winegard SS-3000

RCA ANT1500

Classic Single Bow Tie

My First Attempt at the Coat Hanger Antenna, Youtube Video Specifications unamped

Terk HDTVa

Philips Silver Sensor

Philips MANT 510

Philips MANT940

Channel Master 4030

RCA ANT108 (very similar to the RCA ANT110 and the Philips MANT110 and others)

RS 1868 Delta

RCA ANT1020

Terk TV-5

Terk TV-1 without Loop

RS FM Dipole


Jensen TV-931

RS 1870


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/14190678
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> But 3 miles away from an LPTV station that you are aimed away from it is not likely to cause preamp overload.
> 
> 
> I suspect that filtering out the strong FM station on 94.9 is a good first step. You may want a separate FM filter in addition to the one in your new preamp.



Yep, the condition existed long before I even got the preamp. Just to make sure the preamp wasnt overloading, I hooked up the uhf antenna line with preamp directly to the analog TV. Channel 14 analog wasnt overloading, just ghosting, (because the antenna is 90 degrees to it). Another FM filter may be a good idea. Any suggestions for one that wont affect channel 6 ? Also, anything like a filter for channel 14 ?


Another thing I realized, both VHF antennas I have are uhf/vhf combo antennas. Maybe removing the uhf part of them or a strict vhf only antenna would help ? For the uhf antenna, I have my DBGH, which is working great, pretty much get all the stations I can reasonably expect and then some. (I even get WTVE-DT, -115.9dbm per TVFool at 85-90%)


My TVFool after transistion - 6/27/2008 TVFool update :

(Most of my stations have increased their projected KW transmitting power by a lot, in some cases more than quadrupled power, giving me 3 to 9+ more dbm in gain than was projected in the March 2008 TVFool chart.







)


----------



## 300ohm

Rick0725, thanks for the links, that may do the trick.


The large vhf/uhf combo I have is about 20 years old and is one of those log-periodic split 30 degree vee boom models. Its strong on pulling in Vhf stations, but has always been very miserable for uhf. The uhf elements consist only of a zig zag log periodic elements in the front and a straight single boom forward set of directors. Im planning to take it down this summer and clean it up and repair some of the broken vhf elements that birds have knocked off.


----------



## PCTools

Where is a good place to buy a side arm attachment for a Rohn Tower? I want to add some more antennas on the side of it.


Any ideas?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Are these Motorola amplifiers any good?

http://broadband.motorola.com/catalo...ith_return.pdf 


GaAsFET

2.5db Max noise

15db gain


----------



## 300ohm

IIRC, you paid a pretty penny for that other fairly plain bar you purchased. You can probably buy the metal pipe and ends needed and have those little local welding shops, found in the yellow pages, weld one together for you for a decent savings. But use steel and paint it, aluminum and the cost to weld it is high. And lightweight strong steel tube from about 1 1/4 inches to 3 inches OD, bent just the way you want it, is available from any good muffler shop with bending jigs. Just my 2 cents.


One big benefit of doing it custom, is that you get exactly the mount you want.


----------



## 300ohm

For a distribution amp to 4 sets, it looks fine. But from the antenna to it, you would still want a preamp mounted close to the antenna for long runs of cable.


Unless youre thinking of mounting it up there close to the antenna and running four separate lines down ? It doesnt look all that weatherized. If youre thinking four lines of coax downleads (or even one) from one antenna, I would put it in some kind of weather proof box in that scenario.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/14210012
> 
> 
> Where is a good place to buy a side arm attachment for a Rohn Tower? I want to add some more antennas on the side of it.
> 
> 
> Any ideas?


 http://w9iix.com/ 


I bought my gin pole from this guy. Good stuff.


Ron


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Attic mount?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks Rick and 300ohm.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/14211517
> 
> 
> EscapeVelocity
> 
> 
> the amp you showed us is a 15 db distribution amp used to amplify losses associated with long cable runs. .



Looks to me like you could use it as a preamp if you wanted to. GaSFets are notoriously fragile though when it comes to long term reliability.


The advertisement says "indoor/outdoor" but I'd still probably mount it under the eave.


The 2.5 db NF rated to 1ghz might well indicate somewhat better performance in the uhf band.


Depending on the cost, you could consider Research Communications for GaSFets as well.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The advertisement says "indoor/outdoor" but I'd still probably mount it under the eave.



Yep, or in the attic with a short run to the outdoor antenna. But I wouldnt have an attic antenna with it, it kind of defeats the purpose as youll then be amplifying noise.


----------



## Smoke_signal

Having recently obtained a Zenith DTT901 converter box and receiving *zero* DTV stations in the foothills some 58 miles from the nearest metro area, I bought a Channel Master 4228 UHF antenna and a 7777 preamp. I now unreliably pickup all 9 DTV stations from the metro area, but only some of the stations some of the time. Now I need to buy a second 4228 antenna and stack two 4228 antennas and hope to gain adequate signal reliability. I doubt the changes in Feb. 2009 will improve the situation much, except for 2 stations which will go to VHF from UHF. I'm not waiting until the middle of winter to work on an antenna system. (Who the heck decided to change to DTV in *MID-WINTER* anyway*!?*







) I will need a combiner with low insertion loss. Does anyone have any experience or opinion on the use of the following low loss splitter/combiners for antenna ganging?


Radio Shack 2-Way Gold-Plated Bidirectional Splitter
http://www.radioshack.com/sm-2-way-g...i-2103924.html 


Acoustic Research PRO II (PR-430) 2GHz 2-Way Video Splitter
http://www.araccessories.com/pro2_splitters_2way.html 
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2435255 


Monster Cable TGHZ-2RF - 2 GHz Low-Loss 2-Way RF Splitter
http://www.monstercable.com/productdisplay.asp?pin=663 


Monster Cable SS2RF Standard 2-way RF Splitter
http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Monst...oductDetail.do 


RCA - 2-Way Digital Splitter Model: DT2SP
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1051826213337 


GE 2-Way Video Splitter
http://www.target.com/GE-2-Way-Video...id=1215250355/


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Now I need to buy a second 4228 antenna and stack two 4228 antennas and hope to gain adequate signal reliability. I doubt the changes in Feb. 2009 will improve the situation much, except for 2 stations which will go to VHF from UHF. I'm not waiting until the middle of winter to work on an antenna system.



What is your zip code, so we can see the TVFool on it ? Im 61 miles from my main group of stations and get 39 DTV channels reliably, even the -114.0 and -115.9 dbm ones, also using a Zenith DTT901 .


Things will be better in Feb for at least three reasons, 1 - most stations are going to increase kw power, 2 - less interference from analog stations, 3 - the trees shed their leaves in the fall.


Also, is the 4228 pointed at trees by any chance ? UHF signals are really hurt by trees, a lot more than VHF. If so, the 4228 bowtie and the Hoverman style antennas are generally better for catching a signal thru trees than the 91xg corner reflector yagi types.


----------



## ctdish

Smoke_signal, a combiner from here http://www.hamtv.com/oal.html or a Linsday combiner if you could find one are the only ones likely to show an improvement with two antennas. More height is the most likely was to get a better signal at your location.

John


----------



## cpcat

3db loss in a two way splitter is due to the split i.e. 1/2 the signal goes to each leg. The actual insertion loss which can't be recovered is anything spec'd above 3db. So, if the splitter is spec'd for -3.5db per leg then the insertion loss is .5db per leg. This means about 1db loss when used as a combiner (assuming everything is phased properly) resulting in 2db gain over single antenna. In practice, the ferrite splitters used in reverse don't seem to phase as well so additional loss probably occurs.


For a lower loss stripline combiner with better phasing characteristics contact here:
http://www.hamtv.com/oal.html 


I would also agree that yagi/corner reflectors are easier to stack but I've seen/heard of pretty good results with vertical CM4228 stacks.


Remember to double check the phase of the baluns. There's a 50/50 chance that they will be out of phase.


----------



## MeowMeow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Smoke_signal* /forum/post/14224018
> 
> 
> (Who the heck decided to change to DTV in *MID-WINTER* anyway*!?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )



Folks in DC make decisions based on February weather in northern Virginia, since most of them live somewhere around McClean or Alexandria. February is about the only month out of the year when the DC metro is livable.


Folks in DC / NVA area tend to be a bit like Californians: oblivious to the fact that there is a different world beyond the horizon.


My understanding is the date was chosen because it is after the Super Bowl, and thereby will minimize the number of death threats they receive for messing up the television signal. I think they have seriously underestimated the number of death threats they will receive for screwing up the NCAA basketball tournament for those few stations that really have trouble.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> My understanding is the date was chosen because it is after the Super Bowl, and thereby will minimize the number of death threats they receive for messing up the television signal.



Its also after the elections, so the people in DC think theyll have plenty of time to fix the problems before 2010, and we wont remember.


----------



## Smoke_signal




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/14225204
> 
> 
> For a lower loss stripline combiner with better phasing characteristics contact here:
> http://www.hamtv.com/oal.html
> 
> 
> I would also agree that yagi/corner reflectors are easier to stack but I've seen/heard of pretty good results with vertical CM4228 stacks.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14224777
> 
> 
> Also, is the 4228 pointed at trees by any chance ? UHF signals are really hurt by trees, a lot more than VHF. If so, the 4228 bowtie and the Hoverman style antennas are generally better for catching a signal thru trees than the 91xg corner reflector yagi types.



The 4228 also receives VHF ch 7-13!


Yes, I've got trees and hills everywhere. Extra height is difficult and expensive to achieve and I would suffer loss through a long cable run. Extra height doesn't seem to make much difference here in the hills. I need more antenna gain. It's cheapest just to spend $70 including shipping for another 4228. I am just going to use 3/4" ID (1 1/16" OD) galvanized pipe which I already have lying around for a mast. It's heavy, but strong. The trick will be bracing it against a flimsy mobile home. But, temporarily I will use a 3-way right angle fitting to connect three 10 ft 3/4" pipes together, all at right angles in the xyz-planes, which will form a stable two-leg support stand for a 10 foot upright mast set on the ground. The 2 legs at right angles can just wrap around the corner of the mobile home. All of the stations are aligned on the same axis so I don't need a rotator. And that includes a second metro area 110 miles away in addition to the 58 mile distance metro area which may give me one additional VHF DTV station in February if I am lucky (forget the UHF stations).


I don't see a OAL stripline combiner for UHF/VHF applications, and they are expensive. I guess I will try a RCA 2-Way Digital Splitter DT2SP first. At a 3.5db insertion loss, they are as good as any available. The GE and AR splitters are identical except for the gold plating on the AR, and they don't give any loss specs.


For analog VHF I only needed a cheap amplified indoor antenna. This government VHF snatcheroo is going to cost millions of rual folk 100's of millions to keep the TV from going dark in the dead of winter. When the government sells off those frequencies to the pigs who set this whole fraud scheme up, they should be forced to pay compensation to all those who spent fortunes on new antenna systems by including the money in the sales price. Those frequencies were already in use by millions. Are there going to be that many who will benefit from the profit-greedy frequency thieves?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I am just going to use 3/4" ID (1 1/16" OD) galvanized pipe which I already have lying around for a mast. It's heavy, but strong. The trick will be bracing it against a flimsy mobile home. But, temporarily I will use a 3-way right angle fitting to connect three 10 ft 3/4" pipes together, all at right angles in the xyz-planes, which will form a stable two-leg support stand for a 10 foot upright mast set on the ground.



With something like that, I would guy wire it too.



> Quote:
> At a 3.5db insertion loss, they are as good as any available.



Keep in mind, the most theoretical gain you get with ganging 2 antennas is 3db. In real life, if you get 2.5 db gain, youre doing excellant. If the antennas arent ganged right, youll get little to no db gain.


In your situation with trees and hills, antenna placement is everything. Higher doesnt mean better. Try various heights and at various locations until you find a hot spot. Also try angling the antenna up slightly or pointing to the top of the hill.


Whats really needed in mountainous regions is many many repeater type stations.


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Smoke_signal* /forum/post/14227711
> 
> 
> This government VHF snatcheroo is going to cost millions of rual folk 100's of millions to keep the TV from going dark in the dead of winter. When the government sells off those frequencies to the pigs who set this whole fraud scheme up, they should be forced to pay compensation to all those who spent fortunes on new antenna systems by including the money in the sales price. Those frequencies were already in use by millions. Are there going to be that many who will benefit from the profit-greedy frequency thieves?



I hate to spoil a good rant, but all the VHF channels which were allocated to broadcast TV before Feb 2009 remain allocated to broadcast TV afterwards.


----------



## MeowMeow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Smoke_signal* /forum/post/14227711
> 
> 
> This government VHF snatcheroo is going to cost millions of rual folk 100's of millions to keep the TV from going dark in the dead of winter.



Someone already shot this down, but they didn't fill in a few facts.


1. The VHF band will still be there (been said).


2. The lower VHF band might as well be sold once ATSC is the only show in town, because 2-6 are virtually unusable for digital OTA. The reason this is is because they accept too much interference.


3. The TV stations, knowing this, are in fact the ones to blame for the flood of channels out of VHF.


What surprises me more than anything is that channels aren't fighting harder for hi-VHF channels. I suspect in some rural areas, a channel in the 7-13 range will prove significantly closer to reproducing its coverage than any of its neighbors. In my area, in fact, several of the upper VHF channels are not keeping their legacy channel, and one is in fact conceding its channel after the transition to a competitor. Go figure.


On the upside, the owners and engineers do seem committed to pressuring the FCC for a boost in maximum power. That's a must, because I think the last 10 miles of many DMAs are being poorly served by the 1000 kw ERP standard with the majority of channels staying on UHF.


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> all the VHF channels which were allocated to broadcast TV before Feb 2009 remain allocated to broadcast TV afterwards.



Except in markets where the low band (say around 95%) and the high band (I bet at least 25%) will be turned over for other uses.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/14231285
> 
> 
> Except in markets where the low band (say around 95%) and the high band (I bet at least 25%) will be turned over for other uses.



What is to stop other television broadcasters from applying for those licenses and placing their minimally sufficient transmitters close enough to their reception facilities to enable them to develop a "must-carry" signal level at the local metropolitan cable company headends?


----------



## MeowMeow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/14231458
> 
> 
> What is to stop other television broadcasters from applying for those licenses and placing their minimally sufficient transmitters close enough to their reception facilities to enable them to develop a "must-carry" signal level at the local metropolitan cable company headends?



In fairness, there has never been that much interest from media owners in buying licenses to compel "must carry" status.


Bear in mind the original allocation of channels went from 2-81. 70-81 were sold off to the original analog cell networks. In fact, if you had an old tuner you could listen to analog cell conversation.


The FCC did such a huge allocation because they had initially expected the push for TV licenses to be as strong as there was for radio licenses. They allocated 2-81 because they realistically expected 20-40 stations in each market back in the early 1950s.


Instead, it was until almost the mid-1990s that it was common for a market to have at least six networks. Many smaller DMAs still only have the big four.


It is a bit confusing, but the interest in buying transmitters even in the era of "must carry" cable rules just hasn't been there.


----------



## AntAltMike

The economics of the benefit of owning a transmitter that qualifies for must carry status have changed. Cable penetration goes up every year, more frequencies in the VHF lowband and highband are now apparently open, and each low powered transmitter can now carry and distribute half a dozen crystal clear programs using less transmitter power than the station the analog transmitter would be replacing. A channel 49 from who-knows-where relocated to Washington, DC a couple of years ago and is absolutely unwatchable at present, as its analog channel 49 carrier is weaker than adjacent digital channel 48's full power ATSC signal, but if it becomes a digital channel with say 20dB less signal strength of power than adjacent digital channel 48, it will be suitable in quality at the Washington, DC Comcast headend to produce six perfect subchannels. It has already changed from being a Spanish channel to a hoot of a channel called WUFO. Check out their website at www.tv49dc.com .


----------



## EscapeVelocity

This is the future of OTA. Well at least I certainly hope so.


That channel looks fantastic, its like George Norry's Coast to Coast on AM.


----------



## MeowMeow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/14231722
> 
> 
> A channel 49 from who-knows-where relocated to Washington, DC a couple of years ago and is absolutely unwatchable at present, as its analog channel 49 carrier is weaker than adjacent digital channel 48's full power ATSC signal, but if it becomes a digital channel with say 20dB less signal strength of power than adjacent digital channel 48, it will be suitable in quality at the Washington, DC Comcast headend to produce six perfect subchannels. It has already changed from being a Spanish channel to a hoot of a channel called WUFO. Check out their website at www.tv49dc.com .



This is a shining argument against must carry.


Anyhoo... a low-power station is not a must carry. Thank God. For now, anyhow (the FCC has some genius plan floating around for LP must carry).


I couldn't imagine the crap that would end up on TV if LPs were must carry.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *n4yqt* /forum/post/14232772
> 
> 
> Originally, UHF TV channels started at 14 and ended at 83.



Yep, and dont forget that there originally was a VHF channel 1.


----------



## johnied




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14233235
> 
> 
> Yep, and dont forget that there originally was a VHF channel 1.





There is a story on channel one and such on the web. Google it i forget its

URL. Something like History of Channel 1 vhf in google


John


----------



## 300ohm

Yeah, I had read it quite some time ago while searching thru antique TV sets.










Its here : http://www.tech-notes.tv/History&Tri.../Channel_1.htm 



It shows the FCC has a 70+ year tradition of messing things up.


----------



## fletchmath

Folks,


Some time ago I asked for some advice regarding my location. The CM 4221 was suggested, and some thought it might pull in the hi-VHF (channel 10) ABC broadcast.


I had been using the amplified "omnidirectional" radio shack "pizza" antenna, which gave me acceptable reception on my UHF channels, and unacceptable reception of ABC. The CM 4221 has pegged my receiver (a Dish VIP722) on 100% signal for the UHF channels, but has no signal lock on ABC at all, no matter what direction I point it in.


I'm guessing that a pre-amp is not going to help (my coax run is probably 75-100 feet), but I base that on the signal being so strong for the UHF signals --- am I right about that?


The 4221 was a cheap experiment; does anyone have a new suggestion? I've about given up on pulling in channel 4, since it will move to UHF in February. Unfortunately, I'll have 2 hi-VHF channels to deal with at that point, so I'd like to solve this problem.


Anyone got any experience with this new "ClearStream2" antenna from Antennas Direct? It claims hi-VHF reception, but no one seems to know anything about it.


----------



## Konrad2

> The CM 4221 has pegged my receiver (a Dish VIP722) on 100% signal

> for the UHF channels, but has no signal lock on ABC at all, no

> matter what direction I point it in.


The CM 4221 is a UHF antenna. For VHF-HI stations you want a

VHF-HI antenna. Try a YA-1713 or Y10-7-13.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w1713.html 


> I've about given up on pulling in channel 4, since it will move to

> UHF in February.


I have the YA-1713. The current 3 analog VHF-HI stations are

beautiful. VHF-LO analogs have some ghosting (not bad considering

it's not supposed to be a VHF-LO antenna), but digital channel 4

comes in surprisingly well.


----------



## SkiSmuggs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fletchmath* /forum/post/14238374
> 
> 
> Folks,
> 
> 
> Some time ago I asked for some advice regarding my location. The CM 4221 was suggested, and some thought it might pull in the hi-VHF (channel 10) ABC broadcast.
> 
> 
> I had been using the amplified "omnidirectional" radio shack "pizza" antenna, which gave me acceptable reception on my UHF channels, and unacceptable reception of ABC. The CM 4221 has pegged my receiver (a Dish VIP722) on 100% signal for the UHF channels, but has no signal lock on ABC at all, no matter what direction I point it in.
> 
> 
> I'm guessing that a pre-amp is not going to help (my coax run is probably 75-100 feet), but I base that on the signal being so strong for the UHF signals --- am I right about that?
> 
> 
> The 4221 was a cheap experiment; does anyone have a new suggestion? I've about given up on pulling in channel 4, since it will move to UHF in February. Unfortunately, I'll have 2 hi-VHF channels to deal with at that point, so I'd like to solve this problem.
> 
> 
> Anyone got any experience with this new "ClearStream2" antenna from Antennas Direct? It claims hi-VHF reception, but no one seems to know anything about it.



Check out the Winegard HD-1080 or Channel Master 2016 for compact UHF/VHF solutions. The HD-1080 can be found for $35 plus shipping online. I am using one at 14 miles with LOS. I suspect the CM 2016 may have stronger VHF performance though.


----------



## fletchmath




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/14238712
> 
> 
> > The CM 4221 has pegged my receiver (a Dish VIP722) on 100% signal
> 
> > for the UHF channels, but has no signal lock on ABC at all, no
> 
> > matter what direction I point it in.
> 
> 
> The CM 4221 is a UHF antenna.



I get that, but several regulars here chimed in last time, saying it could often receive VHF-HI.



> Quote:
> For VHF-HI stations you want a
> 
> VHF-HI antenna. Try a YA-1713 or Y10-7-13.
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w1713.html
> 
> 
> > I've about given up on pulling in channel 4, since it will move to
> 
> > UHF in February.
> 
> 
> I have the YA-1713. The current 3 analog VHF-HI stations are
> 
> beautiful. VHF-LO analogs have some ghosting (not bad considering
> 
> it's not supposed to be a VHF-LO antenna), but digital channel 4
> 
> comes in surprisingly well.



Thanks for the suggestion.


Ken


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fletchmath* /forum/post/14239092
> 
> 
> I get that, but several regulars here chimed in last time, saying that a 4221 could often receive VHF-HI.



Bad advice.


While a 4221 has some reception ability on VHF-Hi, the directivity is poor and therefore the multipath is high.


Those who have found that a 4221 works on High band V are in areas where the signal is extremely strong that there is nothing nearby to cause reflections.


----------



## fletchmath




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/14239217
> 
> 
> Bad advice.
> 
> 
> While a 4221 has some reception ability on VHF-Hi, the directivity is poor and therefore the multipath is high.
> 
> 
> Those who have found that a 4221 works on High band V are in areas where the signal is extremely strong that there is nothing nearby to cause reflections.



OK, lesson learned.


How directional are the HD-1080 and the CM-2016? I have towers separated by close to 90 degrees.


Ken


----------



## MeowMeow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14235320
> 
> 
> Yeah, I had read it quite some time ago while searching thru antique TV sets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its here : http://www.tech-notes.tv/History&Tri.../Channel_1.htm
> 
> 
> 
> It shows the FCC has a 70+ year tradition of messing things up.



After reading that I don't feel so bad about the impending DTV transition. It looks smooth when compared to virtually killing an entire industry for a whole decade.


----------



## SkiSmuggs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fletchmath* /forum/post/14239370
> 
> 
> OK, lesson learned.
> 
> 
> How directional are the HD-1080 and the CM-2016? I have towers separated by close to 90 degrees.
> 
> 
> Ken



They are both advertised as medium-directional, so I'm not sure how that would play for you, but if you split the difference, it may do the trick.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Id go withthe HD 1080, it should have a better beamwidth than the yagi on UHF.


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fletchmath* /forum/post/14238374
> 
> 
> Folks,
> 
> 
> Some time ago I asked for some advice regarding my location. The CM 4221 was suggested, and some thought it might pull in the hi-VHF (channel 10) ABC broadcast.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing that a pre-amp is not going to help (my coax run is probably 75-100 feet), but I base that on the signal being so strong for the UHF signals --- am I right about that?
> 
> 
> The 4221 was a cheap experiment; does anyone have a new suggestion? I've about given up on pulling in channel 4, since it will move to UHF in February. Unfortunately, I'll have 2 hi-VHF channels to deal with at that point, so I'd like to solve this problem.



The reflector on the cm4221 is too small for VHF-hi, if you can, add some metal rods or screen to make the reflector about 32" wide or wider and you will see an improvement.


I've had success with this set-up in a number of locations picking up channels 7,8,11 & 13 @ 35mi plus.


This will by no means make the cm4221 a great VHF-HI antenna but should pull in stations about 40 mi. away under normal conditions if the antenna is out in the open and at a reasonable height.


This will do nothing for VHF-lo


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> What is to stop other television broadcasters from applying for those licenses and placing their minimally sufficient transmitters close enough to their reception facilities to enable them to develop a "must-carry" signal level at the local metropolitan cable company headends?



If no one steps forward when the 'elections' were held, doesn't that spectrum automatically get turned over to the FCC (or whomever holds the auctions) for sale?


----------



## goldrich

I purchased MAX HD's previous crank up tower and we just finished installing it at my house Sunday. This setup is mostly for DXing DTV stations, as I'm 3-5 miles from most of the local Indy TV towers.

http://www.wtfda.info/showthread.php?t=2280 


Steve


----------



## Hank3

After trying a handful of indoor antennas (including the Radio Shack UFO and Terk Indoor Amplified), I have decided to go with an outdoor antenna setup. I'm a super newb and not sure which mount type is best. Should I mount it on the roof, and if on the roof should I saw a chimney mount bracket? Or should it go straight into the ground or on the side of the house? Anyways, I priced a setup at Radio Shack a week ago and it came out to about $150 (not including the coax cable). And then today I found the Web site solidsignal.com and they seem to have really good prices. I'm curious to hear how the outdoor antennas have performed for you in your area. I'm in an area where there is good amount of tall pine and other assorted trees. I don't want to get something that's going to be overkill for my needs, but certainly something that can give me solid/dependable signal. I've included the printout for my house from TV Fool. TIA for any input


----------



## Tommy63

Hank3,


Check out http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ 


Lots of good info.


I just installed a Winegard 7084. I am pleased with it's performance. But, the majority of the stations that I am trying to pull in are 40 to 50 miles. Your TVFool profile shows a much greater variation in distance.


The new antenna is attached to the chimney, because that is where my old antenna was installed. However, I believe most experts, for safety's sake, would recommend using a tower.


As you get in to this, you will discover, as I have, that digital OTA reception is not "apples to apples" with analog reception. Would I still invest in the antenna? Yes. But, I won't be sure I made the right decision until after the digital transition takes place next February.


Tommy


----------



## Hank3

Thanks for the response, Tommy. What do you mean by a tower setup - do you have any pics? I'm not sure I follow you on the "apples to apples" explanation of digital and analog reception with regards to the switchover in February.


----------



## Tommy63




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Hank3* /forum/post/14259840
> 
> 
> Thanks for the response, Tommy. What do you mean by a tower setup - do you have any pics? I'm not sure I follow you on the "apples to apples" explanation of digital and analog reception with regards to the switchover in February.



Hank,

By tower, I mean "into the ground".


Many digital broadcasts are not yet at full power. Also, many stations are not broadcasting on their final channel and will be changing in February. Receiving digital broadcasts, in my experience is more finicky than analog. With digital, you get pixelation which means your picture "freezes up".


Also, you must have a digital tuner. Depending if you are feeding an HDTV set or an analog set, you will need the appropriate built-in tuner or set-top box.


Tommy


----------



## Hank3

OK - I think I gotcha now







I'm trying to get the outdoor antenna setup so that I can get my DirecTV AM21 tuner to work.


Are there downsides to having the the antenna on a tower? I thought having the antenna on a roof was better since it's higher up?


----------



## PCTools

DX'ers,


Thinking about adding two additional 91XG's in a 2 X 2 box configuration. That is, I would mount 2 directly below the existing antennas. Thus, 2 horizontally stacked, and then 2 vertically directly below them.


Attached is a picture of my set-up.


What are your thoughts, besides I loose the Funke VHF antenna and forcing me into buying a better rotor?


Thanks!


Chad

 

The Monster.pdf 360.443359375k . file


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Are there downsides to having the the antenna on a tower? I thought having the antenna on a roof was better since it's higher up?



Heh, the towers being discussed are much higher than your roof. The downside is the large cost.


Chimney mounts are OK, as long as you keep the mast length to around 5 feet and the antenna to about 5 lbs max. In your case, with signals stronger than -70dbm, that shouldnt be a problem. You're not trying to get stations weaker than -105dbm, are you ?


In your case, a rotor would also be nice.


Solidsignal and Summitsource are good places to buy from online. I would avoid RS, the mall prices are way too high for inferior products.


----------



## Hank3

Thanks, n4yqt. I'm wondering if I should hire someone at this point to install it.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> What are your thoughts, besides I loose the Funke VHF antenna and forcing me into buying a better rotor?



Ganging 2 more antennas to a 2 gang set is probably only going to get you small marginal results.


I would think a tilt rotor would get you more DXing for the buck.


----------



## PCTools

300 Ohm,


I tested the tilt rotors in the past and did not feel they were worth the high dollar value for what they did. Also, there is ONLY one place to purchase these from and they spank you on cost.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14265857
> 
> 
> Ganging 2 more antennas to a 2 gang set is probably only going to get you small marginal results.
> 
> 
> I would think a tilt rotor would get you more DXing for the buck.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler

PCTools-


Don't all four antennas have to be manufactured precisely the same for ganging to work its best? I seem to remember something a while back about someone getting a second antenna of some model and finding that its design or build had subtle differences in it from the antenna that he already had on hand. So it makes me wonder if the new antennas that you'd buy now would be perfect matches for the two you already have.


----------



## Hank3




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *n4yqt* /forum/post/14270760
> 
> 
> Hank: If you decide to go with a professional, make sure they are licensed and insured, too. MATV installers would be the best to find since they install commercial TV antenna systems for multi-users
> 
> (ie" condo, apartment, business, etc.)



Super!!! Thanks fot the tip


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/14260430
> 
> 
> DX'ers,
> 
> 
> Thinking about adding two additional 91XG's in a 2 X 2 box configuration. That is, I would mount 2 directly below the existing antennas. Thus, 2 horizontally stacked, and then 2 vertically directly below them.
> 
> 
> Attached is a picture of my set-up.
> 
> 
> What are your thoughts, besides I loose the Funke VHF antenna and forcing me into buying a better rotor?
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> Chad



You'd be better off with a horizontal quad, then you could keep your Funke. I've tried them both, horizontal works best IMO.


Both the dual and quad stack will have some hi vhf gain "through the back" just FYI. If you have a decently strong hi vhf you'll probably still pick it up using the 7777 in combined uhf/vhf mode. I pick up a vhf 12 digital from 55 miles with my current setup.


The 9521 would still probably do it since it's inside the tower and protected by the bearing. My 9521 is still hanging in there.


You'll need the 4-way stripline combiner for the best result. A 4 way splitter in reverse won't work. Believe me, I've tried it. Using 3 two-way splitters does work, but not as well as the 4 way stripline will.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/14266621
> 
> 
> PCTools-
> 
> 
> Don't all four antennas have to be manufactured precisely the same for ganging to work its best? I seem to remember something a while back about someone getting a second antenna of some model and finding that its design or build had subtle differences in it from the antenna that he already had on hand. So it makes me wonder if the new antennas that you'd buy now would be perfect matches for the two you already have.



It was probably me you remember. I picked up two more DAT 75's and they were a different design than the earlier one (with larger reflectors and a different pcb balun). I eventually figured out how to phase them through trial and error. The "new" DATs require 5.5 inches less coax per antenna. I think the "extra length" is added pcb trace inside the balun.


----------



## Smoke_signal

Two Channel Master 4228 antennas ganged together through a Channel Master 7777 preamp and I still can't get a reliable DTV signal. The signals are stronger (when I can get them) with two 4228s over just one, and I may temporarily pick up a few more stations out of the total of 9 available, but as the sun sets, so does the reception. The stations disappear one by one as the stars in the night begin to shine. DTV *SUCKS!*


I am about to haul the antennas up a steep slope behind my mobile home and attach a temporary 10 foot galvanized pipe mast to a small oak tree to test if a gain of some 60 feet, maybe 70 feet, in height will fix the problem. TVFool says "Line of Sight" requires almost 175 feet of height for all 9 of the stations (125 feet for some.) Changes in Feb. 2009 will only help a little.


As I have stated before, rural America is getting ripped-off by the plan to sell off analog TV frequency spectrum. And I am not the only one saying that proceeds from the spectrum sales need to go to compensating those forced to shell out hundreds of bucks for new antenna systems.











Boucher: DTV Transition Needs Technical Assistance Component

Congressman Says More Than 10% of His Constituents Would Need to Replace Outdoor Antennas.

By John Eggerton -- Broadcasting & Cable, 6/20/2008
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/art...html?rssid=193 


Digital TV reception a question

Sunday, June 22, 2008

By Bill Toland, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08174/891593-96.stm


----------



## MeowMeow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Smoke_signal* /forum/post/14272896
> 
> 
> I am about to haul the antennas up a steep slope behind my mobile home and attach a temporary 10 foot galvanized pipe mast to a small oak tree to test if a gain of some 60 feet, maybe 70 feet, in height will fix the problem. TVFool says "Line of Sight" requires almost 175 feet of height for all 9 of the stations (125 feet for some.) Changes in Feb. 2009 will only help a little.



You don't actually have to get to LOS. 1 edge or 2 edge reception will usually work with even a single 4228. You're at a spot where you're only getting tropo and diurnal effects. In fact, I'd lighten the rig and go as high as I possibly can with it.



> Quote:
> I have stated before, rural America is getting ripped-off by the plan to sell off analog TV frequency spectrum. And I am not the only one saying that proceeds from the spectrum sales need to go to compensating those forced to shell out hundreds of bucks for new antenna systems.



If it is any consolation, the FCC so far has seemed pretty friendly to granting applications for addition power.


There is a real test coming through the pipeline of their willingness to grants ERP boosts. I forget which station it is, but they're applying for a boost from 1000 kw to 1700 kw on their UHF transmitter. Our local station that is moving to channel 13 (WQED) in Feb recently was granted the right to improve their power from 13 kw to 26 kw.


Hopefully this is all a sign the FCC is waking up to the problem.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Smoke_signal* /forum/post/14272896
> 
> 
> DTV *SUCKS!*
> 
> 
> As I have stated before, rural America is getting ripped-off........



I'm sorry DTV is not working well for you, but receiving DTV can be all about location, location and location, whether that relates to weak signals in rural areas because of physical distance or mulipath issues in metro/urban areas due to too much signal. Meanwhile, some viewers in rural areas think DTV ROCKS!!


Last summer I installed a simple UHF antenna setup for a friend in rural Illinois, in the Quincy, IL/Hannibal, MO TV market. Two DTV signals from towers @ 10 miles now provide not only CBS and NBC, but also ABC, Fox and CW (thanks to subchannels) which were not available via analog TV service in this area. Plus, this simple antenna setup now provides most of the St. Louis DTV stations @ 99-107 miles! I'd say these stations are receivable at least 80% of the time. This came as a pleasant surprise. But the terrain from his house does not include any steep slopes, mountains, etc. The antenna overlooks a large field of corn. The antenna is mounted less than 20 ft. AGL. The older model Radio Shack antenna is amplified by a CM 7777.


Steve


----------



## AntAltMike

The real winners will be the residents of Glendive.


----------



## bozey45

As far as I can find this is the only support bearing and would like to know if anyone has any experience with these as to how well they work and how easy it is to install. Only place I can find that has them is Starke Electronics. If anyone has experience with these please post; thanks.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bozey45* /forum/post/14274315
> 
> 
> As far as I can find this is the only support bearing and would like to know if anyone has any experience with these as to how well they work and how easy it is to install. Only place I can find that has them is Starke Electronics. If anyone has experience with these please post; thanks.



I used to use a support bearing like that on a swing-up mast that needed guy wires. I used the CM 9521A rotor at the time. I've attached a pic of the setup. The top of the CM rotor can be seen at the very bottom of the pic and the support bearing is where the guy wires are connected. It worked fine for me.


Steve


----------



## Cornhustler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bozey45* /forum/post/14274315
> 
> 
> As far as I can find this is the only support bearing and would like to know if anyone has any experience with these as to how well they work and how easy it is to install. Only place I can find that has them is Starke Electronics. If anyone has experience with these please post; thanks.



Here is the way I am using a TB-105 support bearing on a Rohn 25G tower. The rotor is a CM 9521A. I went to the hardware store and purchased some zinc plated steel tubing and attached it to the tower legs using zinc plated U-bolts. So far it has held up alright. My original plan was to use a Rohn thrust bearing and install the 9521A inside the tower but doing so proved to be beyond my level of expertise.


See the photo here -

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...4&d=1173367917


----------



## bozey45

Thanks to both of you for the info; will go ahead and order from Starke this week; also will get the CM4521A rotor; my antennas are a 91-XG and a Winegard HD5030 all channel VHF. Final height will be about 40 ft. i wanted to get a Delhi 306 but there's a tree in the way of using an antenna that long so the HD5030 will have to do--it's done a fine job so far with Orlando channels 2, 6 and 9 that are

80+ miles from here. So thanks again for the info.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The signals are stronger (when I can get them) with two 4228s over just one, and I may temporarily pick up a few more stations out of the total of 9 available, but as the sun sets, so does the reception. The stations disappear one by one as the stars in the night begin to shine. DTV SUCKS!



That is an unusual situation/location. Usually reception is better at dusk and dawn. I would definately try raising the height like youre planning to do.


I have a feeling that for some rural and mountainous regions, that theyll eventually have to put in some kind of repeater type transmitters.


----------



## scsiguy72




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/12651255
> 
> 
> Below are snapshots from RADIO MOBILE Propagation Prediction Program.
> 
> 
> Sutro Towers is the futuristic triple tower structure on top of hill in central S.F.
> 
> NBC (CH12) comes from a nearby hill SE of Daly City with only a very small
> 
> (negligible) difference in angle of arrival.





OK So I have a rooftop installed with a pre-amp and I get everything I need EXCEPT channel 11.1 (NBC) It comes in only sometimes and quickly fades out. I am using a combo antenna and it works fine, except NBC. It is VHF only about 4 degrees off the main towers.


Should I get a higher grade main antenna or just get a VHF only for channel 11 and combine it to my main antenna.


Right now I am using a Radio Shack (VU-120RX)


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Should I get a higher grade main antenna or just get a VHF only for channel 11 and combine it to my main antenna.
> 
> 
> Right now I am using a Radio Shack (VU-120RX)



I would try to aim for channel 11 and see if the other stations are still OK.


A gain chart for the VU-120RX is here : http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## SkiSmuggs

Hank3:

If it weren't for WTWC on channel 2, I would have just recommended a couple of medium distance antennas aimed in your 2 major directions and combined with a splitter. I think I would also go with professional installation in your case. If you forget about the stations over 50 miles, the smaller antennas would allow you to do an eave or wall-mount possibly using a j-mount with a mast. Any chance WTWC is going to move post transition? If so, you could just set up for the near future and forget about them for now, because all the rest are UHF.

Here is some good info on antennas:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## scsiguy72




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14291131
> 
> 
> I would try to aim for channel 11 and see if the other stations are still OK.
> 
> 
> A gain chart for the VU-120RX is here : http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html



I am aimed directly at 11.1 and it still drops out. the other stations are good 99% of the time with this aiming.


Can a UHF only antenna be aimed at 11.1 and combined with my UHF/VHF combo?


----------



## Blackduck

After 2 months of an XG91, I've sent it back to Antenna's Direct. In my location, zip 02891, Westerly RI, it is no better than the Radio Shack antenna. No antenna I have tried is any better on UHF than the RS with it's measly gain of 8dB on UHF. I am now a believer in the theory that there is only x amount of signal in a given area, and all the antennas in the world are not going to be of much help. Anyone who wants to come on over and prove me wrong is more than welcome. By the way, I think the CM 4228 is almost as good as the RS, maybe equal. The XG91 is about equal to the RS, in my specific location.


----------



## Hank3




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SkiSmuggs* /forum/post/14293035
> 
> 
> Hank3:
> 
> If it weren't for WTWC on channel 2, I would have just recommended a couple of medium distance antennas aimed in your 2 major directions and combined with a splitter. I think I would also go with professional installation in your case. If you forget about the stations over 50 miles, the smaller antennas would allow you to do an eave or wall-mount possibly using a j-mount with a mast. Any chance WTWC is going to move post transition? If so, you could just set up for the near future and forget about them for now, because all the rest are UHF.
> 
> Here is some good info on antennas:
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html



I have heard from the members who post in the local thread that a couple stations will be strengthening their signals come February. I'm gonna wait for September when DirecTV does their rollout and see if our city gets the local HD channels. If we do, I'll if the picture quality is good enough. If it's subpar or we simply just don't get the HD channels by that time, I'll go with an antenna post transition. Thanks for the suggestions on two medium antennas. And I'm thinking more and more that a pro-install would be best


----------



## fbov

scsiguy72,

I did a quick peak at TVFool.com, and notice that NBC is your only VHF station, although ABC is moving back to VHF-7 next Feb., so you'll want this fixed.


Your problem sounds like a poor VHF section, but the signal levels in TVFool aren't low enough to give marginal reception unless something else is wrong. Earlier responses talked about pre-amp settings, insuring both UHF and VHF amps are on. I wonder if there might be something wrong at the antenna.


Without seeming to insult, did you assemble it properly? There should be separate feed lines from the UHF section (corner reflector Yagi) and VHF section (angled LPDA), and those feed lines can only touch antenna elements and their collection point, where you attached the balun. I've seen a lot of LPDAs with improperly assembled feedlines, ranging from disconnected to trapped in the mast clamp (grounded).


You should have enough antenna for the signal TVFool predicts, but I also notice the biggest jump I've ever seen between pure zip code and zip + El Padro Dr. That tells me that you might want to input your house's long and lat - exact location - to see if there really is enough signal where you actually need it. VHF channels in the -80dBm range ought to be easy with a large, roof-mounted antenna, like the rest of the stations. Are they really that strong?


Frank


----------



## scsiguy72




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/14294378
> 
> 
> scsiguy72,
> 
> I did a quick peak at TVFool.com, and notice that NBC is your only VHF station, although ABC is moving back to VHF-7 next Feb., so you'll want this fixed.
> 
> 
> Your problem sounds like a poor VHF section, but the signal levels in TVFool aren't low enough to give marginal reception unless something else is wrong. Earlier responses talked about pre-amp settings, insuring both UHF and VHF amps are on. I wonder if there might be something wrong at the antenna.
> 
> 
> Without seeming to insult, did you assemble it properly? There should be separate feed lines from the UHF section (corner reflector Yagi) and VHF section (angled LPDA), and those feed lines can only touch antenna elements and their collection point, where you attached the balun. I've seen a lot of LPDAs with improperly assembled feedlines, ranging from disconnected to trapped in the mast clamp (grounded).
> 
> 
> You should have enough antenna for the signal TVFool predicts, but I also notice the biggest jump I've ever seen between pure zip code and zip + El Padro Dr. That tells me that you might want to input your house's long and lat - exact location - to see if there really is enough signal where you actually need it. VHF channels in the -80dBm range ought to be easy with a large, roof-mounted antenna, like the rest of the stations. Are they really that strong?
> 
> 
> Frank



I think I Assembled it correctly, but I have no problem taking a second look


I m using a preamp, but I took it off and noticed no differance with or without. I am using a splitter for my back room and I have taken it off also and didn't notice a big differance either.


Should I try something like the CM 3671? I don't mind if that fixes things


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Blackduck* /forum/post/14294095
> 
> 
> After 2 months of an XG91, I've sent it back to Antenna's Direct. In my location, zip 02891, Westerly RI, it is no better than the Radio Shack antenna. No antenna I have tried is any better on UHF than the RS with it's measly gain of 8dB on UHF. I am now a believer in the theory that there is only x amount of signal in a given area, and all the antennas in the world are not going to be of much help. Anyone who wants to come on over and prove me wrong is more than welcome. By the way, I think the CM 4228 is almost as good as the RS, maybe equal. The XG91 is about equal to the RS, in my specific location.



Besides the antenna, location, location, location is extremely important for uhf reception in fringe areas. If, for example the uhf antenna is pointed at the center of a nearby tree canopy, then yes, all antennas are going to perform equally poorly.


----------



## Blackduck




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14299421
> 
> 
> Besides the antenna, location, location, location is extremely important for uhf reception in fringe areas. If, for example the uhf antenna is pointed at the center of a nearby tree canopy, then yes, all antennas are going to perform equally poorly.



I have a, more or less, clear shot over the tops of all trees for 1000 feet, or so.


----------



## scsiguy72




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scsiguy72* /forum/post/14293264
> 
> 
> I am aimed directly at 11.1 and it still drops out. the other stations are good 99% of the time with this aiming.
> 
> 
> Can a VHF only antenna be aimed at 11.1 and combined with my UHF/VHF combo?



I think the best thing for me now is to get a top grade antenna and start over.


Right now I have a radio shack VU120 RX and I am thinking about changing it out for a Channel Master 3020.


Any comments or suggestions? The VHF band seems to be the problem child for me. UHF is fine.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I have a, more or less, clear shot over the tops of all trees for 1000 feet, or so.



Thats much better than what I got, heh. Have you tried to locate a hot spot by moving the antennas up/down a few feet or to the left/right a few yards ? I know I have some unexplained dead zones. Are you in a valley or on a hill ?



> Quote:
> Any comments or suggestions? The VHF band seems to be the problem child for me. UHF is fine.



When looking for vhf antennas, look at the gain chart for it for the specific channel you want, the gain varies a lot over different channels. Some expensive high gain vhf antennas have some channels that are less in gain on those channels I want than a cheaper version. Im sure Channel Master has posted the gain chart somewhere, but quickly searching I couldnt find it.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scsiguy72* /forum/post/14294520
> 
> 
> I think I Assembled it correctly, but I have no problem taking a second look
> 
> 
> I m using a preamp, but I took it off and noticed no differance with or without. I am using a splitter for my back room and I have taken it off also and didn't notice a big differance either.
> 
> 
> Should I try something like the CM 3671? I don't mind if that fixes things





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scsiguy72* /forum/post/14301826
> 
> 
> I think the best thing for me now is to get a top grade antenna and start over.
> 
> 
> Right now I have a radio shack VU120 RX and I am thinking about changing it out for a Channel Master 3020.
> 
> 
> Any comments or suggestions? The VHF band seems to be the problem child for me. UHF is fine.



Reading this through, I still think you have enough antenna, and something else is getting in the way of VHF reception. Let's start by starting over with what you've got.


Antenna

You have a combo, so there are two antennas whose signals combine before the balun. Do check the feed line layout and connections; I've seen them done wrong. If in doubt, post a pic. It may not be intuitively obvious, or even counterintuitive, but they don't like to touch anythign but active elements and feed points.


Pre-amp

You're using single input, both UHF and VHF amplification. Bypass is completely to see if it's working at all (use UHF) and to check analog on VHF. Insert the pre-amp and power supply and see what changes; you should see a change! Make sure the splitter passes DC, since the pre-amp power comes through the coax. Otherwise everything will degrade when you put the pre-amp back in.


Downlead

I assume good quality, RG6 coax with professionally crimped connectors outside and weather proofing on the connections (at least once things work).


And if you really want one of the best out there, the 3671 fits the bill, but I don't see a need unless you're closer to the Post Office than you let on.


Frank


----------



## scsiguy72




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fbov* /forum/post/14302436
> 
> 
> Reading this through, I still think you have enough antenna, and something else is getting in the way of VHF reception. Let's start by starting over with what you've got.
> 
> 
> Antenna
> 
> You have a combo, so there are two antennas whose signals combine before the balun. Do check the feed line layout and connections; I've seen them done wrong. If in doubt, post a pic. It may not be intuitively obvious, or even counterintuitive, but they don't like to touch anythign but active elements and feed points.
> 
> 
> Pre-amp
> 
> You're using single input, both UHF and VHF amplification. Bypass is completely to see if it's working at all (use UHF) and to check analog on VHF. Insert the pre-amp and power supply and see what changes; you should see a change! Make sure the splitter passes DC, since the pre-amp power comes through the coax. Otherwise everything will degrade when you put the pre-amp back in.
> 
> 
> Downlead
> 
> I assume good quality, RG6 coax with professionally crimped connectors outside and weather proofing on the connections (at least once things work).
> 
> 
> And if you really want one of the best out there, the 3671 fits the bill, but I don't see a need unless you're closer to the Post Office than you let on.
> 
> 
> Frank



OK for th econnections this is what I see:


The VHF is where the Balun attaches. The UHF has a thin rod that runs down the length of the Yagi. This is not touching the mast or any supports it only touches the elements.


I am using RG6, but I crimped the connections myself. My run is about 40-50 feet.


I go a Preamp from Winegard (can't remember the model) But from what I can tell it doesn't do anything. My signal strength did not change at all with it or without it (measured with my TVs antenna strength meter) Is it support to change?


I have a fairly clear view of the mountain range between me and the Towers.


See post #6438 of this thread for street level maps and antennaweb.org readouts.


Thanks a lot for the help. Could it be something as simple as a bad antenna lead?


----------



## ctdish

How do analog stations in the same location or near the VHF station you are trying to get look? There is a wealth of information in the details of a picture report. Is analog snowy? Does it have wavy lines or dark vertical or horizontal bars? You should see more easily the difference with the preamp removed on the stations. Also removing power from the preamp will make it into an attenuator so you should see the picture degrade noticeably when this is done.

John


----------



## scsiguy72

John,


That Sounds like a good test. Right now my analog is not great. It's pretty snowy with horizonal lines. My preamp is powered (12V) but if I unplug it I get no signal at all, my screen goes blank and I get the no signal message on my screen. Is that not normal? I will go home tonight and pull the preamp and see if I can tell any differance in the picture quailty in analog.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scsiguy72* /forum/post/14287572
> 
> 
> OK So I have a rooftop installed with a pre-amp and I get everything I need EXCEPT........



scsiguy72,


Do you have the FM trap engaged on your pre-amp? You have 2 powerful FM stations less than 20

miles away. I have issues even with UHF reception when strong FM is not addressed; even without amplification. Just a thought.


Good Luck!!

Glen


----------



## scsiguy72

Not sure I will have to get up on the roof and check. It should be on correct?


I am looking at the specs for my pre-amp:


Gain 29dB VHF; 29 dB UHF

low Noise


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Could it be something as simple as a bad antenna lead?



Even simpler, a bad balun, very common. The wires inside of a balun are very very thin. If the threaded part of the balun turns as you are attaching it, you could very well have a broken balun.


----------



## PCTools

Cpcat,


Thanks for the info. The hard part is finding a 4-way strip combiner.


As for adding the 2 additional UHF antennas would you say the "extra cost" is worth the gain? (Total of 4 in a horizontal stack) That would require a 10' pipe, and then spacing them ~52" apart.


Also, can you post a picture of your quad array?


Thanks!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/14270937
> 
> 
> You'd be better off with a horizontal quad, then you could keep your Funke. I've tried them both, horizontal works best IMO.
> 
> 
> Both the dual and quad stack will have some hi vhf gain "through the back" just FYI. If you have a decently strong hi vhf you'll probably still pick it up using the 7777 in combined uhf/vhf mode. I pick up a vhf 12 digital from 55 miles with my current setup.
> 
> 
> The 9521 would still probably do it since it's inside the tower and protected by the bearing. My 9521 is still hanging in there.
> 
> 
> You'll need the 4-way stripline combiner for the best result. A 4 way splitter in reverse won't work. Believe me, I've tried it. Using 3 two-way splitters does work, but not as well as the 4 way stripline will.


----------



## PCTools

Location is the king!


My installer, has his antenna 15' off the ground next to his home. His roof is made out of metal and he picks up more stations than my horizontal stack at 52' in the air. (Go figure)


Now, if you live near a water tower you could be a winner. Point your antenna directly at the tower. You will pick-up the reflected waves off the tower from the stations.







(An old trick that actually works) Think of it, as a way to get some free bounced signals.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14299421
> 
> 
> Besides the antenna, location, location, location is extremely important for uhf reception in fringe areas. If, for example the uhf antenna is pointed at the center of a nearby tree canopy, then yes, all antennas are going to perform equally poorly.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scsiguy72* /forum/post/1430762
> 
> 
> Switchable FM trap........... It should be on correct?



Yes,


I would a least try it; it may or may not make a difference. Any possible overload can wreak havoc on your reception. You should be getting Channel 11 without much problem using your TV Fool street level results.(An exact address or coordinates may be more accurate) KNTV-DT 11 does have a directional signal that is not entirely in your favor; but it looks adeuqate.


----------



## Blackduck




300ohm said:


> Thats much better than what I got, heh. Have you tried to locate a hot spot by moving the antennas up/down a few feet or to the left/right a few yards ? I know I have some unexplained dead zones. Are you in a valley or on a hill
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I have tried moving across the roof and changing elevations, no sweet spot for me. Someone on one of the other sites describes Westerly, RI as a "reception pit". Thanks for trying to help, 300ohm I am situated on more or less flat terrain, the antenna is about 35 feet above sea level.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scsiguy72* /forum/post/14303239
> 
> 
> OK for th econnections this is what I see:
> 
> 
> The VHF is where the Balun attaches. The UHF has a thin rod that runs down the length of the Yagi. This is not touching the mast or any supports it only touches the elements.



A little antenna theory (about all I have), with a reference:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/types.html 

Scroll down to Log-periodic Dipole Arrays (LPDA) which is right above Yagi's. You have one of each, a VHF LPDA and a UHF corner Yagi.


Your UHF Yagi has a broad, flat loop (folded dipole) near the reflector that's the only receiving element, the rest are reflectors and directors - gain enhancement. In the diagram, look for the element with two little circles on it. That's where the balun attaches in an isolated Yagi. No balun is needed with 300 ohm twin-lead.


Your VHF LPDA has a completely different feedline, a pair in fact, that connects all elements, criss-crossing from one side to the other with terminals at the short end. These feedlines should only touch their half of the elements, and one side of the VHF balun. Again, no balun is needed with 300 ohm twin-lead.


Based on these layouts, the only "thin rod that runs down the length" would be a pair of feedlines, one from each side of the folded dipole to the UHF-VHF junction where the balun attaches. (I assume you don't mean the boom that mounts the elements.)



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scsiguy72* /forum/post/14303239
> 
> 
> I am using RG6, but I crimped the connections myself. My run is about 40-50 feet.



Good for you! I'm lazy and my antenna's indoors so I use twist-ons. However, look into coax-seal or some other weatherproofing once you're happy with your set-up and it'll retain it's performance much longer.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scsiguy72* /forum/post/14303239
> 
> 
> I go a Preamp from Winegard (can't remember the model) But from what I can tell it doesn't do anything. My signal strength did not change at all with it or without it (measured with my TVs antenna strength meter) Is it support to change?
> 
> 
> I have a fairly clear view of the mountain range between me and the Towers.
> 
> 
> See post #6438 of this thread for street level maps and antennaweb.org readouts.
> 
> 
> Thanks a lot for the help. Could it be something as simple as a bad antenna lead?





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scsiguy72* /forum/post/14304220
> 
> 
> John,
> 
> 
> That Sounds like a good test. Right now my analog is not great. It's pretty snowy with horizonal lines. My preamp is powered (12V) but if I unplug it I get no signal at all, my screen goes blank and I get the no signal message on my screen. Is that not normal? I will go home tonight and pull the preamp and see if I can tell any differance in the picture quailty in analog.



Pre-amps are great when you need them, but you may not. Digital signals are threshold-sensitive, and if you're above threshold, there's no benefit, as you report. That's why ctdish and I suggested using analog stations to verify pre-amp function. You will see the pre-amp affect in analog stations.


Pulling power kills the signal, as you discovered. You have to bypass the pre-amp at the mast.


Digital Rules had good advice about the FM trap, too.


Which brings me to 300ohm's thought - bad parts. When you go up, take a known good balun and length of terminated coax, maybe a barrel connector (female-to-female) to bypass the pre-amp and make the coax an extension cord.


The easy test for the balun is to wire a pair together, 300 ohm to 300 ohm, so you have F-connectors at the ends. Insertion of two baluns may cause a 3-8dB loss, but a bad balun will kill the signal. Do the same with your length of coax so you know you have some good reference parts with you at the mast. The baluns between the pre-amp and its power supply must also pass DC.


And while you're up there, take some pictures ... we have great imaginations, but you don't want to chase imaginary problems! At the same time, pictures answer questions we can't think to ask.


Frank


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Location is the king!
> 
> 
> My installer, has his antenna 15' off the ground next to his home. His roof is made out of metal and he picks up more stations than my horizontal stack at 52' in the air. (Go figure)



Hmm, I have to renew the roof on my garage. I was thinking of using a black metal roof spaced above the old shingle roof on the south west side for some free solar passive heating (and its cheaper than shingles). This gives me another reason to use it. The only trouble is, I have no stations perpendicular to any of the 4 sides of the roof, any way I do it, it would be facing off angle to a station.







Is the installer picking up off angle stations well too ?


----------



## tropical6350

I put together a rather crude double bay G-H, 2x4 + chicken wire reflector not very smooth, etc. Connected to a 32" Vizio ATSC via a CM 7777. Managed to get very clear reception for WLNY and WFTY, both Long Island stations 210 miles away. I'm on the MD coast near Ocean City so its about 10 miles over land and the rest over water. Antenna pointed 330 deg, tilted back abt 15 deg.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Managed to get very clear reception for WLNY and WFTY, both Long Island stations 210 miles away.



Holy smoke, was that on Tuesday ? It was some very good dxing on Tuesday here.


----------



## halfnium

Having gotten good advice on the thread concerning the ROTR100, I'm looking for preamplifier info.


For my situation, I'd like to hear which preamps have provided good results and (maybe even more useful) which would be wise to avoid.


The ROTR100 imposes a preamp power budget of 18 VDC / 80mA.


In my neck of the woods (Zipcode = 01450, from 20 to 50 miles from various transmitters), HDTV is via UHF only. So I'd love to have a product that filters out FM and VHF before they can overload the amplifier or intermodulate with the UHF signal.


Yes, I have seen the list of links to antennas, preamps etc. posted {06-03-05, 07:04 PM} on this forum by RayL Jr. I'll be digging through this and other material on the Web, but it's good hear what's available and working well for you guys today, three years after that post and a mere seven months before analog TV transmission disappears forever.


----------



## videobruce

goldrich; Interesting antenna mount. Why not just use the height advantage of the roof and use a tripod? You also reduce lead in loss.


halfnium; Depending on the terrain in northern Mass., I don't see a need for a preamp with the Boston/Cambridge/Worcester market only 28 miles away;
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/defaul...=Show+Stations 


Unless you want to try for Providence. You _may_ have a problem with WUTF & WUNI if you use a preamp.


----------



## tropical6350

It was Thursday 7/17 about 5 PM. Also saw WTFX HD out of Philly, about 110 miles away. Should also note that antenna height was 15 feet.


----------



## tropical6350

Was looking for a NBC HD station to watch Olympics as Mediacom does not carry NBC HD! Will try Baltimore station this weekend.


----------



## halfnium

*Three Reasons*

Winter weather is primarily why I'd prefer to install in the attic rather than on the roof. Noting that videobruce is from Buffalo, NY, where springtime doesn't arrive until mid-June, I guess I shouldn't complain about ice, snow and wind loading on antenna and rotor. But there you go.


Second, the former owner of my house attic-installed an antenna (compound VHF and UHF of indeterminate brand), rotor (Alliance Tenna U-100 or U-110, not sure which) and some ultra-cheesy Radio Shack preamp 20 years ago. Once cable service came up the street, he abandoned this rig. But the downlead co-ax and the four-lead rotor cabling are still in place (so preamp power is easy to arrange). Everything is sealed in the wall.


Third, I pride myself on being a Cheapskate of the Western World. The whole purpose of this exercise is to achieve a quick payback versus continuing to bleed $$ to the cable company (Charter Communications) every month.


I'd like to try attic installation using more up-to-date equipment, including a UHF-only Yagi antenna. If it doesn't work out, I would install on the roof. I am way too lazy to haul the antenna and mounting hardware up to the roof, tie it down securely, figure out how to weatherize the cabling and electronics, and cut a cable feed-through hole in the side of the house if I don't have to. I am shooting for a master's degree in OTA DTV, not a Ph.D.

*HDP-269*

Getting back to the preamp question, a reading of this forum and videobruce's observations about my locale suggest I need overload tolerance more than high gain. This makes the Winegard HDP-269 look good. It fits the power budget imposed by the ROTR100, too. However, this wide-band preamp does not filter out VHF. I would prefer one with just UHF-band amplification. Recommendations? Other ideas?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *halfnium* /forum/post/14317525
> 
> 
> However, this wide-band preamp does not filter out VHF. I would prefer one with just UHF-band amplification. Recommendations? Other ideas?



Winegard AP-4700.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I put together a rather crude double bay G-H, 2x4 + chicken wire reflector not very smooth, etc



Heh, normally a not smooth chicken wire reflector doesnt give good results. In your case, I wouldnt touch a thing on it.







Also dont breathe to hard on it, it may distort its properties.









My DBGH 12 colinear pair reflector works very well, but I have yet to get anything from 210 miles away.


Its kind of like the Simpsons Episode where Homer develops a perfect chiropractic back device from a bent up trash can that worked so perfect, the chiropractic doctors destroyed it.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> However, this wide-band preamp does not filter out VHF. I would prefer one with just UHF-band amplification. Recommendations? Other ideas?



The Channel Master 0064 is a good inexpensive low noise preamp. I have the CM 0264 (same thing but with vhf and uhf inputs) and it does a very nice job.


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> Winter weather is primarily why I'd prefer to install in the attic rather than on the roof.



Absolutely NO issue at all. The Sun's UV rays and winds are the major headaches with outdoor instalations. Snow doesn't bother anything (after all, it's just water). Ice only bothers cheaper antennas with hollow tube type elements, especially the low band.


> Quote:
> Noting that videobruce is from Buffalo, NY, where springtime doesn't arrive until mid-June, I guess I shouldn't complain about ice, snow and wind loading on antenna and rotor.



Funny, you never hear about Watertown NY or Minnesota (for example) where winter is really winter. heavy snows ans sub zero temperatures are the norm. Here, we know Buffalo as the Miami on the north. BTW, last year we had brown grass in June because it was so dry in the spring that arrived in March.


> Quote:
> I am shooting for a master's degree in OTA DTV, not a Ph.D.



Not with a indoor antenna. That only gets you a GED.









If you get what you want with a attic install, more power to you. Using existing cableing might be ok, if there aren't any 'hidden' surprises.


I wouldn't worry about filtering out VHF except for maybe FM.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Ive got a BS, too, videobruce!


----------



## bbthut

does anyone recognize this bad boy by chance?











i'm ready to leave cable TV behind and go OTA. i've got this beauty on my roof but it is probably +20 years old. the cable was cut sometime before I lived here but they left the (ungrounded) mast and antenna up on the roof. i'd would need to get a matching transformer but there is no obvious place on the antenna to attach it. Then i would still need to run the cable, ground it, and then get it into my house (probably ~$40 and lots of work).


however, i am also only 9 miles away from a transmitter that is broadcasting 14 UHF digital signals. my backup plan is to just get a Silver Sensor and stick it in my attic (~ $25 and very little work).


should i salvage the old one or just get an inexpensive indoor antenna since i am so close?


----------



## halfnium

OK, I have bitten the bullet and ordered all the stuff I believe I'll need. Once I get the system working, I'll provide a report. Least I could do in return for your observations and suggestions.


Thanks!


----------



## WILWRadio

Looks like and old Radio Shack VHF only antenna. V-75 or V-90?


In any event that antenna is not likely to be suitable for most, if not all of your HDTV reception needs. Most HDTV channels are broadcast on the UHF channels while only a handful are in the VHF range.


Try visiting tvfool.com (don't forget the www at the beginning of the address? and see what it recommends for your home.


----------



## videobruce

What size tower are you going with?










(Sorry, I couldn't resist)


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WILWRadio* /forum/post/14323059
> 
> 
> Looks like and old Radio Shack VHF only antenna. V-75 or V-90?



I'm also pretty sure it's RS; I used to sell these things as a callow youth. But with 12 elements, it's higher than that, IMO -- possibly V-110 or V-120. Compare today's VU-90, which has eight VHF elements.


TVFool is a good idea for the OP. So is taking that old thing down off the roof. An ungrounded antenna and mast outdoors are way too tempting to Thor, God of Thunder.


----------



## halfnium

-6"


----------



## videobruce

Sounds like a comment a date I had once made.


----------



## nwiser

Anyone remember the Channel Master 4251 parabolic dish antenna ? I found a listing for it at a place called Vance Baldwin Electronics but it shows 0 in stock. While I realize it hasnt been made in a while, which is why they have 0 stock, I'm just surprised to see it listed on a commercial website. It makes me wonder if they recently had stock of it.


Anyway, for those who are familiar with it, was the performance as great at it was supposed to have been? I've read that the CM 4251 would give 4 CM 4228's ganged-together a run for their money...which is unbelievable!


Why is there no "build your own 4251" page yet? Granted I know nothing about engineering an antenna, but from the photos it seems fairly straightforward...more or less a single bay antenna in the center of a parabolic screen. I'm guessing there are technical details as to the bow/curvature of each rung in the dish, as well as how its all coupled together, but otherwise, it probably not much more complex than any of the others.


----------



## tvropro




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nwiser* /forum/post/14328131
> 
> 
> Anyone remember the Channel Master 4251 parabolic dish antenna ? I found a listing for it at a place called Vance Baldwin Electronics but it shows 0 in stock. While I realize it hasnt been made in a while, which is why they have 0 stock, I'm just surprised to see it listed on a commercial website. It makes me wonder if they recently had stock of it.



That puppy was one of highest gain antenna's out there back in the day. Here's a great link: http://www.rocketroberts.com/cm4251/cm4251.htm


----------



## cnixon

Check out this "Channel Master 4251 Tribute Site":
http://www.rocketroberts.com/cm4251/cm4251.htm 


Also look at this link for performance comparisons:
http://atechfabrication.com/tests/04...st_results.htm


----------



## 300ohm

In the 70's I used to own the 5 foot Layfette Radio Electronics parabolic he has pictured on that site. IIRC, it cost me about $25 and a 200+ mile round trip to their Long Island store. It performed very well at channels above about 35. But I think my present DBGH performs better at channels 20 to about 35 than it did. I think the main reason they discontinued the parabolic models is that present day costs would make it appealing only to die-hard dx'ers and not to the average Joe. Another downside, due to their large size, was they caught a lot of wind. They needed serious guy wiring. Mine was destroyed in a strong storm.


On another note, I still have that Blonder Tongue (or a clone of it) LPDA antenna pictured next to it. It was plated steel, but the plating is long gone and is now just rust plated, heh.


----------



## ctmooregottapee

do you have your DBGH mounted outside?


i'm aiming for channels 18-30 at about 60 miles so i went with the wineguard 8800 and had good results, but the first moderate wind storm turned it into a mess and not it receives nothing but a very local channel (yes i tried replacing everything to make sure it was the antenna)


i've got some 4251s on towers around here and was considering getting one although it would come at some expense as i have to hire a truck to get it down, people are nice enough to give the dish away but just are not keen on letting me climb up there on their property.


thinking about trying the DBGH but didn't know if i could get one to hold up to the elements. was considering the cm 4228 but like the other alternatives, the below ch30 performance is blah....



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14330794
> 
> 
> In the 70's I used to own the 5 foot Layfette Radio Electronics parabolic he has pictured on that site. IIRC, it cost me about $25 and a 200+ mile round trip to their Long Island store. It performed very well at channels above about 35. But I think my present DBGH performs better at channels 20 to about 35 than it did. I think the main reason they discontinued the parabolic models is that present day costs would make it appealing only to die-hard dx'ers and not to the average Joe. Another downside, due to their large size, was they caught a lot of wind. They needed serious guy wiring. Mine was destroyed in a strong storm.


----------



## nwiser




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctmooregottapee* /forum/post/14333385
> 
> 
> i've got some 4251s on towers



I recently became aware of towers and mounting antennas on them as opposed to just mounting it on ones roof...which is great since I cant get up on my roof to mount an antenna.


Where can the average consumer get a tower of good quality...and once one acquires a tower, how does one put it up. I would assume the antenna and everything has to go on while its laying down, and then you just lean it up...does it still have to be secured to the side of ones house? I've heard of some people pouring a concrete base...would the tower then be able to be completely freestanding and have it work just as well as if it were attached to the house?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> do you have your DBGH mounted outside?
> 
> i'm aiming for channels 18-30 at about 60 miles so i went with the wineguard 8800 and had good results, but the first moderate wind storm turned it into a mess and not it receives nothing but a very local channel (yes i tried replacing everything to make sure it was the antenna)



Yes, its outside. I made the 12 pair colinear rod model, so its very wind resistant. But a 2 X 4 inch mesh model would also be very wind resistant and offers a hair more gain and is easier to construct than colinear rods.









Its made from 1 inch pvc with a broom handle in the middle and a steel u-channel on the back. Its very stiff, heh. Overall dimensions are about 2 foot by 5 foot. According to the net gain charts, with the DBGH 2 X 4 inch grid model, you should get about .5db more gain than the 8800 at channel 18, and about 1.5db more gain at channel 30 than the 8800. Keep in mind, the 8800 is the best available consumer antenna available for sale for channel 18, per the charts on hdprimer.



> Quote:
> i've got some 4251s on towers around here and was considering getting one although it would come at some expense as i have to hire a truck to get it down



Depending on the cost of the truck, it could be a good deal. Ive heard 4251s going for $150 plus shipping on ebay, when and if you can find one.



> Quote:
> Where can the average consumer get a tower of good quality...



Are you going to install it yourself ? Rohm makes good ones. I like the models that crank up and down. Keep in mind, youre looking at spending in the ball park of $750. If you want to go cheap, look in the classifieds, sometimes you can get one for free by hauling it away.


----------



## PCTools

I have eight of these parabolic antennas sitting in my backyard.


I fooled around with these bad boys and decided NOT to use these on my new install. Actually, the Antennas Direct 91XG was able to pull in the digital channels with higher signal strength. However, the 4251 was MUCh better at the Analog signals.


Bring your pick-up to Northwest OH, and you can have these monsters.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nwiser* /forum/post/14328131
> 
> 
> Anyone remember the Channel Master 4251 parabolic dish antenna ? I found a listing for it at a place called Vance Baldwin Electronics but it shows 0 in stock. While I realize it hasnt been made in a while, which is why they have 0 stock, I'm just surprised to see it listed on a commercial website. It makes me wonder if they recently had stock of it.
> 
> 
> Anyway, for those who are familiar with it, was the performance as great at it was supposed to have been? I've read that the CM 4251 would give 4 CM 4228's ganged-together a run for their money...which is unbelievable!
> 
> 
> Why is there no "build your own 4251" page yet? Granted I know nothing about engineering an antenna, but from the photos it seems fairly straightforward...more or less a single bay antenna in the center of a parabolic screen. I'm guessing there are technical details as to the bow/curvature of each rung in the dish, as well as how its all coupled together, but otherwise, it probably not much more complex than any of the others.


----------



## PCTools

I purcahsed my Rohn 20 for $79 a section (NEW). If you need some, my distributior has 500' and I will extend dealer cost to you...


Use caution when talking to the installers, as I discovered they are REALLY infating the prices of tower, saying the raw materials are so expensive. This is true, but paying over $110 a section of Rohn 20 is just a ripoff.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14334583
> 
> 
> Are you going to install it yourself ? Rohm makes good ones. I like the models that crank up and down. Keep in mind, youre looking at spending in the ball park of $750. If you want to go cheap, look in the classifieds, sometimes you can get one for free by hauling it away.


----------



## nwiser




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/14335417
> 
> 
> I have eight of these parabolic antennas sitting in my backyard.
> 
> 
> I fooled around with these bad boys and decided NOT to use these on my new install. Actually, the Antennas Direct 91XG was able to pull in the digital channels with higher signal strength. However, the 4251 was MUCh better at the Analog signals.
> 
> 
> Bring your pick-up to Northwest OH, and you can have these monsters.



hmmm...where at in NW OH? I live in PA...though I dont have a pickup so I'd have to dissassemble one...or two (if you're giving them away).


----------



## nybbler

Hey, 300ohm -- someone in Phoenixville, PA on Bridge Street west of Main Street has a Hoverman like yours up... except I think theirs must be an original, because it looks like it's been there a good long while.


bbthut's big LPDA looks like it is in surprisingly good shape; most of the ones I see around here have elements missing or bent at crazy angles.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Hey, 300ohm -- someone in Phoenixville, PA on Bridge Street west of Main Street has a Hoverman like yours up... except I think theirs must be an original, because it looks like it's been there a good long while.



Is it a double bay or single bay ? If its a single bay, its probably the one Radio Shack sold way back when. If its a double bay commercial, it may be the Antenna Craft model, fairly recent and sold by SummitSource :
http://www.summitsource.com/antennac...le-p-6356.html 


But the trouble with the commercial designs, is they have way too few reflectors. The Hoverman needs a good reflector for good gain.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler

Hmm.....could one buy that model and add reflectors? How hard could that be?


----------



## 300ohm

It would be even easier and have more gain by adding 1 by 2 mesh to it. But if youre going to that trouble, save the expense and shipping by building one yourself.
http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/


----------



## nwiser

Someone was kind enough to give me a Medium or maybe large (it's about 8 or so feet long) directional UHF/VHF antenna. A few of the elements are either gone or were bent and when I tried to straighten them they cracked.


The antenna works well but I wouldnt mind replacing the missing elements to see if it could get any better. The elements are aluminum, but I dont think aluminum tubing is sold at the local home depot or other hardware store? I'm hesitant to mix metals, as that can contribute to corrosion. Still, does anyone here have ideas on what I could replace them with?


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nwiser* /forum/post/14371402
> 
> 
> Someone was kind enough to give me a Medium or maybe large (it's about 8 or so feet long) directional UHF/VHF antenna. A few of the elements are either gone or were bent and when I tried to straighten them they cracked.
> 
> 
> The antenna works well but I wouldnt mind replacing the missing elements to see if it could get any better. The elements are aluminum, but I dont think aluminum tubing is sold at the local home depot or other hardware store? I'm hesitant to mix metals, as that can contribute to corrosion. Still, does anyone here have ideas on what I could replace them with?



Your time would have to be worth near zero or less to make that worth doing, since you can buy a new, six foot long Winegard PR-9022 for about $30, or a ten foot Winegard PR-9032 or an 8 foot PR-7015 (U/V) for about $40.


Edit/Update:


I just found nwiser's TV Fool, post-transition list in his local thread and see that he DOESN'T have line of sight reception from ten of the eleven transmitters that are within ten miles of him, even though they are in four distinctly different azimuth directions. Does nwiser live in the bottom of a well?


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nwiser* /forum/post/14371402
> 
> 
> A few of the elements are either gone or were bent and when I tried to straighten them they cracked.... does anyone here have ideas on what I could replace them with?



Keep an eye out for other broken antennas people in the neighborhood have taken down. Often they will give them to you just to get rid of them. Maybe you will collect enough elements to make a good antenna. Still, like Mike said, it's not really worth the time it will take to do it.


----------



## AlexG883

Speaking of broken antennas...


The house we bought had a Channel Master antenna on it which was damaged when taken down for a new shingle job.

The longest low VHF elements were sheared off from their rivets. I'm thinking of salvaging this antenna and need to know:


1) the long rods still seat in the holders but are just set in there. What is the right glue? solder? tape? to bond aluminum to aluminum?


2) in our area we'll no longer have low VHF channels after Feb. 2009. Are the longest elements of this antenna even necessary at that point? Should I just take them off?


Thanks in advance.


----------



## ctdish

Antennas I have repaired all have had the elements held in by riveted braces. To do a repair I drill the rivet out, take an element of the same length as the broken one and drill a hole like the original one had and reassemble the brace and element to the boom with a stainless screw, lock and nut. Connecting to the old element stub is not likely to work.

John


----------



## Neil L

I'm no expert, but at this point I would say if you won't need low-VHF leave the elements off. The longest of the elements of a LPA style antenna are probably tuned for channels 2-3 and probably would do little if anything for channels 5-6 even.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> 1) the long rods still seat in the holders but are just set in there. What is the right glue? solder? tape? to bond aluminum to aluminum?



What I do is insert a short piece of solid aluminum rod that fits into the 3/8 inch aluminum tubing and then drill and pop rivet the two.



> Quote:
> 2) in our area we'll no longer have low VHF channels after Feb. 2009. Are the longest elements of this antenna even necessary at that point? Should I just take them off?





> Quote:
> I'm no expert, but at this point I would say if you won't need low-VHF leave the elements off. The longest of the elements of a LPA style antenna are probably tuned for channels 2-3 and probably would do little if anything for channels 5-6 even.



Thats what I thought until I modeled my vee boom LPDA antenna.


I will need channels 6 and 12 only after the transistion, so I also figured I could get rid of the elements longer than 1/2 wavelength for channel 6, minus leaving the last longer one before channel 6 wavelength, as a reflector for channel 6. That would make the monster more compact.

But Im afraid I cant do it. Modeling shows cutting those large elements decreases the gain on both channel 6 and 12, and Ill need every bit I can get.


So, cutting without modeling your antenna, you take the risk of significantly reducing the gain on the particular channel you may want.


----------



## nwiser




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/14371749
> 
> 
> I just found nwiser's TV Fool, post-transition list in his local thread and see that he DOESN'T have line of sight reception from ten of the eleven transmitters that are within ten miles of him, even though they are in four distinctly different azimuth directions. Does nwiser live in the bottom of a well?




haha well.... I do actually live near the bottom of a hill...probably lower than much of Pittsburgh.


----------



## Smoke_signal

After a couple of weeks of clearing brush along the powerline right of way so I can walk up the slope behind my mobile home with my antenna equipment to gain some 60-70 feet in height for my ganged pair of CM4228s and CM7777 preamp, I finally had a chance to see if the increase in height would give me reliable reception to DTV stations located 58 miles away through the foothills and trees.


Things looked promising when I first plugged in the antenna before the sun went down. I received all the primary DTV stations plus some new unviewable weak signals. Then as darkness began to fall, so did the stations begin to go dark until I received *NO* stations at all! This will really make for a great primetime watching experience... LOST gets lost!


Later in the evening, though, the stations began to reappear, including 2 or 3 new ones over 100 miles away and in Japanese to boot. DTV is totally worthless if I cannot rely on receiving the stations when I want to receive the stations no matter how may stations I might randomly pick up. All I can say is there better be some miracles after the February 2009 transition or there will be rioting and blood in the boonies and cornfields.


I've got 200 feet of RG6 cable temporarily connected to my antenna, but over 50 feet of that is extra and unneeded. The long run signal loss, however, adds little contribution to the widely varying and changing signal strength which can go from very strong to no signal in just minutes. Since the cable length seems to make little difference, I will move the antenna further up slope to see if I can gain another 5-10 feet in height. I will just secure and leave the temporary antenna setup as is until February and see if I can find a cheap used VHF antenna to add to the mast. At least I will have fantastic analog reception which I never had before until then.


I am still waiting for the government to reimburse me for all my labor and costs associatied with this government mandated fiasco. I didn't ask for this. All I want is to be able to watch a few TV programs in peace.


----------



## baud

Smoke_signal


I'm in the hills in NH and the CM4228 didn't do well.


At 24 to36 miles from transmiters in two different directions, lots of 60' to 80' trees and a hill 1000' higher than my house (15' at top) I can't afford the height either.


My current setup is a pair of Wineguard HD-7697P on seperate 15' wall mounted masts CM 7777 preamps with ab switch.(not stacked seperate)


I also had better results than the CM4228 with these.


Radio Shack VU-190 XR (as good as HD-7697P but way bigger)

Radio Shack U-75R (as good as CM4228)


What works for most may not work for all.


I'm still learning and it has cost more than it should have because my location is what it is but i feel good about the thing as a whole.


If you don't need VHF the XG91 might be what you need.


You mentioned powerlines.


Have you tried tilting the antenna up? (didn't work for me)


Are you using google earth to find where the high points around you are?


I found that for me aiming at a hill got better results for WENH than aiming at the tower.


Moving the antenna across to the other side of the house 25' took WGME from weakest to Strongest not at all what TVFOOL suggests.


Hang in there and don't give up.


----------



## MeowMeow

Have you tried removing the ganged antenna and using just one CM 4228 with the increased height?


Sometimes the ganging works against you.


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> LOST gets lost!



That might a good thing.


> Quote:
> DTV is totally worthless if I cannot rely on receiving the stations when I want to receive the stations no matter how may stations I might randomly pick up.



The problem is where you choose to live, not necessarly the technology.


> Quote:
> I've got 200 feet of RG6 cable temporarily connected to my antenna



You should of used RG11 with that length of drop. I wouldn'd even considered anything less. Preamp or not.


> Quote:
> I am still waiting for the government to reimburse me for all my labor and costs associatied with this government mandated fiasco.



Why?


> Quote:
> I didn't ask for this.



I didn't ask for seven stations to locate themselves less than 7 miles away that are directly in line of what I want to receive. I just have to deal with it.

_*Where are you??*_ Town or Zip? I didn't see any mention of it. It would help if you let us know what you are up against.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Quote:
> 
> DTV is totally worthless if I cannot rely on receiving the stations when I want to receive the stations no matter how may stations I might randomly pick up.
> 
> 
> The problem is where you choose to live, not necessarly the technology.



The main problem as I see it is the implementation of the technology, ie the signal strength. The often quoted 10 - 15dbm less for digital equaling analog just isnt going to cut it. Drop outs are far, far more annoying than a little bit more snow. I think in the end theyre going to have to increase signal strength in dbm at least to the levels of the previous analog dbm.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Smoke_signal* /forum/post/14376407
> 
> 
> Things looked promising when I first plugged in the antenna before the sun went down. I received all the primary DTV stations plus some new unviewable weak signals. Then as darkness began to fall, so did the stations begin to go dark until I received *NO* stations at all! This will really make for a great primetime watching experience... LOST gets lost!
> 
> 
> Later in the evening, though, the stations began to reappear, including 2 or 3 new ones over 100 miles away and in Japanese to boot.



Keep monitoring your reception for a week or so before you come to any conclusions. I occasionally get weird signal fluctuations because of changes in atmospheric conditions (e.g. a weather front moving through). For me, the usual pattern for borderline stations is that reception is worst during midday to late afternoon, improving around sunset, with decent reception through the night until mid-morning.


If you post your results from tvfool.com, they might provide some clues. I get several stations reliably in the 70-75 mile range, with a 91XG (which has a similar range as the 4228), despite not quite having line of sight because of the rolling piedmont terrain.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14375511
> 
> 
> leaving the last longer one before channel 6 wavelength, as a reflector for channel 6.



What if you repositioned the last remaining element so that it would create an in-phase reflection at channel 6? That would be do-able since the lower VHF dipoles would be gone. I would think it would then act as a real reflector, and increase gain.


----------



## TWinbrook46636

Has anyone bought the new ClearStream 2 by Antennas Direct?


----------



## nwiser




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TWinbrook46636* /forum/post/14379274
> 
> 
> Has anyone bought the new ClearStream 2 by Antennas Direct?



I'd be inerested to know as well. I wouldnt mind seeing some modeling data on it and it's larger brother. Isnt the Clearstream 4 suposed to be as good if not better as the DB8 as far as multidirectionality and such, only smaller? Makes one wonder though why theres not a Clearstream 8....


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/14378665
> 
> 
> What if you repositioned the last remaining element so that it would create an in-phase reflection at channel 6? That would be do-able since the lower VHF dipoles would be gone. I would think it would then act as a real reflector, and increase gain.



That would be nice if it worked, it would decrease my boom size from 105 inches to 55 inches. But it aint to be so. Modeling shows in that scenario that I can get the original gain amount on channel 6, but then I lose 3.2 db on channel 12. I cant afford to lose that much. My channel 6 is projected to be at -86.3dbm and channel 12 at -94.9dbm.



> Quote:
> I'd be inerested to know as well. I wouldnt mind seeing some modeling data on it and it's larger brother. Isnt the Clearstream 4 suposed to be as good if not better as the DB8 as far as multidirectionality and such, only smaller? Makes one wonder though why theres not a Clearstream 8....



Well, the Clearstream 1 shows a peak gain of 8 dBi. That means if its well designed, Clearstream 2 would have a peak gain of about 10.5 db and the Clearstream 4 would have a peak gain of around 13 db. For $129, thats just plain pitiful. The CM 4228 has more gain (even without being redesigned for 2009) without amplification for only around $60 and isnt that much larger and may in fact weigh less.


Edit: Just found the page for the Clearstream db quotes: http://www.antennasdirect.com/HDTV_antennas.html 


They claim 10.3dbi for the Clearstream 2, which sounds about right if 8dbi is for Clearstream 1. But they claim 14.8 db for the Clearstream 4, which sounds very suspect.


----------



## seatacboy

I've finally had some genuine success, as a dweller in a ground-floor condo unit, obtaining good reception using a 4221 clone placed indoors. I can obtain signal from all 14 Seattle-Tacoma local stations (34 subchannels in all), a feat I had not imagined achieving without a rooftop install that would be a bit more complicated.


For the fourteen channels, my signal quality (measured by the Zenith DTT900 signal meter) for many stations is roughly 7 to 8, in a few cases it's it's down around 5. There are some dropouts and fluctuation, but this is the best reception I've obtained indoors. Would an antenna preamplifier (i.e. Channel Master 7777) help smooth out those fluctuations? Keep in mind, the transmitters are between 11 and 23 miles away, but I am aware of the risk of amplifier overload.


Many kind thanks for your suggestions to stabilize reception.


----------



## Smoke_signal

Don't you guys think I've already tried all kinds of various combinations spending all this time and money????? I doubt the FCC has even bothered to test DTV reception to the extent I've been forced to do.


I first tried a Radio Shack U-75R. It doesn't come close to CM4228 performance and only picks up a few stations at a time for very short periods.


All stations are in the same alignment. I don't need separate antennas pointing in different directions or a rotator.


Two ganged CM4228s give better performance than one... more signal and more stations.


Pointing the antenna up only works for short periods of time as the sun is setting, and differs for individual stations.


Powerlines are NOT a problem My antenna is nowhere near them. EVERYBODY has a powerline going to their home!!!!


RG6 cable is perfectly adequate. The problem is NOT cable loss, but signal strength variation. I can get VERY strong signals, SOMETIMES! The difference between 200 feet and 25 feet of cable is nil as far as performance goes.


If stations would increase power, this would help. I would hope they will be pressured to do so before or shortly after February 2009. TVFOOL shows only modest improvements after February 2009 for my location. If I can't rely on reception of ANY station now, its not going to get much better in February.


When I chose to live where I live, there was no such thing as DTV and everybody was adequately served with analog signals and VHF. The government is shoving these changes down everyone's throat and in the process taking access to public airwaves and services away from many citizens who have relied on them for 60 years. It is the responsibility of the government to first make sure the technology is adequate to continue service to everyone affected. The FCC has failed to adequately test DTV before implementation in real life situations in hills, trees, and rural fringe locations and is simply letting people "drown" without a "life preserver" if they don't happen to fit in the "lifeboat".


I am not alone. See:


For many, digital switch brings in 'can’t-see TV’
http://www.startribune.com/business/25920079.html 


At a time when people are suffering from a miserable economy and budget busting price increases, the people don't need the added burden of DTV conversion costs and troubles. OTA TV provides some of the only free and affordable relief and entertainment for many people. A dark screen in the middle of winter only adds further insult and injury. Not all of us can afford or have access to cable or satellite TV. Public airwaves are meant to serve the public, not screw them.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I believe that there is a huge difference between 25ft of coax and 200 ft, smoke, and its worse at higher frequencies.


1 db down per 6ft on average, is what Ive heard.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14380676
> 
> 
> I've finally had some genuine success, as a dweller in a ground-floor condo unit, obtaining good reception using a 4221 clone placed indoors. I can obtain signal from all 14 Seattle-Tacoma local stations (34 subchannels in all), a feat I had not imagined achieving without a rooftop install that would be a bit more complicated.
> 
> 
> For the fourteen channels, my signal quality (measured by the Zenith DTT900 signal meter) for many stations is roughly 7 to 8, in a few cases it's it's down around 5. There are some dropouts and fluctuation, but this is the best reception I've obtained indoors. Would an antenna preamplifier (i.e. Channel Master 7777) help smooth out those fluctuations?



Probably not. Your best bet is to locate the hottest hot spot in the room or rooms.

Are you getting signal quality numbers on your DTT900 or are you just guestimating from Good/Bad/Maybe bar ?


----------



## nwiser

With the donated antenna, I got what appears to be fairly heavy duty mast poles...one 4 ft section and one 10 ft section. Both sections appear to be fairly thick and roughly 1" in diameter. I would like to get another 20 or so feet but dont believe theres anywhere locally I can get it. I picked up a 5 ft mast pole from my local Lowes and it looks so flimsy I think it would bend in a mild breeze.


Where can I get really good quality/heavy duty antenna masts that wont bend over in a moderate wind?


----------



## The Hound

You could use black pipe, stuff is super strong, but wieghs a ton.

You'd need some good guy wires.


----------



## MeowMeow

The ganging is not always ideal, because you have to make sure the feeds are balanced perfectly. But, it was just a suggestion. TV reception OTA is more voodoo than science. Sometimes plainly counter-intuitive things work.


----------



## ctmooregottapee

smoke: one thing to consider changing is your stb/digital tuner. the tech is still improving just as analog tuners did.


and you have a point about the cable, but there is still significant loss differences between rg11 and rg6 at that distance, so covering all bases in difficult reception areas is important when troubleshooting.


two ganged antennas are not better than one if your placement overs ill reception; you may just be adding more ghosting problems.


not to get too far off topic, but your wrong on one account smoke


the FCC/gov't has no obligation to provide you with useable airwaves; it is just there to prevent interference and happy coexistence. your real problem is both your chosen residence and your local stations placement or lack of them. it is no different than any other service, sometimes we all live in underserved markets for one item or another. dtv is not worthless, your location is.


public airwaves were never required or meant to provide the public free entainment. private interest that use public airwaves have been require to operate in the public interest while using those airwaves providing timely emergency information, but that is all.


the constitution didn't say, life liberty and the pursuit of free and perfect tv reception. if televison is that important to you, you have to invest accordingly. there are a number of service providers that will assist, and there are more elaborate setups to try. until you have a large tower, ganged cm4251s or other high gain antennas, high end low noise preamps, belkin rg11, and the latest tuner, you haven't invested all the way, so you still have a way to go. some professional assistance with scoping and other measurements would probably help too.


while i feel for your situation - i'm in a similar dead man's area - i don't believe anyone owes you or me anything either. for everyone person that believes the old way was better, there are a hundred of us loving the new way, that is just reality.


----------



## dr1394

200 feet of even really good quality RG-6 coax is about 10 dB of loss at UHF. In other words, you're losing 90% of the signal that's present at the antenna.


Ron


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *The Hound* /forum/post/14381527
> 
> 
> You could use black pipe, stuff is super strong, but wieghs a ton.
> 
> You'd need some good guy wires.



Black pipe may be strong, but it is not really rated for strength. There are much stronger alloys available.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/14381928
> 
> 
> 200 feet of even really good quality RG-6 coax is about 10 dB of loss at UHF. In other words, you're losing 90% of the signal that's present at the antenna.
> 
> 
> Ron



To clarify, with a preamp you won't lose anywhere near this much.


I use rg11 for a 150 foot run but I'm not sure how much difference it makes with a preamp as long as you're amplifying right at the antenna.


RG11 isn't likely to solve this poster's (smoke signal) problems.


Smoke signal: Be sure the FM trap in the 7777 is "in". You can also try using the hi port of a hi/lo combiner for further filtering.


Also, double check the phasing on the cm4228's. You do this by swapping leads on one of the baluns. One way will be obviously better, the other obviously worse. I'm assuming you are using identical length coax and identical baluns up to the combiner. The cm7777 should be placed as soon as possible after the combiner.


----------



## denube

Anybody tried these antennas yet? Or what are your thoughts?

http://cgi.ebay.ca/NEW-AMPLIFIED-VHF...QQcmdZViewItem


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *denube* /forum/post/14382093
> 
> 
> Anybody tried these antennas yet? Or what are your thoughts?
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.ca/NEW-AMPLIFIED-VHF...QQcmdZViewItem



Looks like a cute piece of junk that will be just what some people need.


The eBay description was written by a mass marketer who has no idea what an antenna is or does, so scrutinizing that page's contents doesn't tell us much.


It looks small enough to fit in someone's closet, which is nice, and the fact that its "spec" column says it passes signals from 40 to 862 MHz means that they copied those boundaries from some cable TV product, so I can't even say for sure that the amplifier passes VHF, which is my only real concern.


While its folded dipole is too short to be optimized for hi-band UHF, it might work OK in an urban setting IF the amplifier doesn't block the highband VHF.


The eBay page says that Radio Shack, Best Buy and Circuit City sell them for $115 to $125, but they aren't listed on any of those sites, and I wasn't able to narrow my Google search enough to find any "titan" product that seemed to match it.


----------



## arxaw

Smoke_signal, I live on the fringe of two markets and OTA DTV has been a godsend here. Many folks who never could get TV at all, or could only get one or two snowy channels (unwatchable at times), are now getting anywhere between two to eighteen very clear DTV channels, and they are pleased with DTV.


Maybe you're living in a DTV dead zone or as someone else said, maybe it's the tuner you're attempting to use. They have improved significantly and there is a big difference in performance between brands.


Free TV is available anywhere in the US with the right equipment. You can always just switch to FTA satellite instead of OTA.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I picked up a 5 ft mast pole from my local Lowes and it looks so flimsy I think it would bend in a mild breeze.
> 
> 
> Where can I get really good quality/heavy duty antenna masts that wont bend over in a moderate wind?



Yeah, Ive seen that flimsy 5 foot mast pole Lowes sells for almost $7. Take it back and go to their garden / fencing section. You can get the 10 foot chain link fencing pole that is the same size OD and much stronger for a little over $9. If youre going to use 34 ft of pole, youre going to need a good guy wire system.



> Quote:
> Anybody tried these antennas yet? Or what are your thoughts?
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.ca/NEW-AMPLIFIED-VHF...QQcmdZViewItem



It looks like a good antenna for a camper. But it certainly is a much poorer performer than the antenna setup shown in their "before" picture, heh.


----------



## abbycat

Anyone with suggestions for routing RG-11 off balun of this antenna? Could I cable tie it to the lower reflecter and then to the mast, or should I loop it back and secure it to the boom then down the mast?


- & I answer my own question here .
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...t=xg91+routing


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> 200 feet of even really good quality RG-6 coax is about 10 dB of loss at UHF. In other words, you're losing 90% of the signal that's present at the antenna.



Yep, its about 1 db loss per 18 ft, 5.55 db loss per 100 ft at 700 mhz per the Channel Master product catalog. Lower frequencies have less loss.



> Quote:
> the FCC/gov't has no obligation to provide you with useable airwaves;



And they also have no right to screw up existing usable airwaves, (maybe on purpose, maybe by incompetance). Thats not in the constitution or any laws passed since either. Since this is an election year, now is the time to complain.


----------



## videobruce

*Smoke_signal; Will you please tell us where you live???*

and re-read my last post.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *abbycat* /forum/post/14382720
> 
> 
> Anyone with suggestions for routing RG-11 off balun of this antenna



I've never connected RG-11 directly to an antenna. it makes servicing it too awkward. I usually use a short piece of RG-59 to mate the RG-11 with the antenna's "F" terminal.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *denube* /forum/post/14382093
> 
> 
> Anybody tried these antennas yet? Or what are your thoughts?
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.ca/NEW-AMPLIFIED-VHF...QQcmdZViewItem



Go to the first post in the How to Build ... thread, click on the link.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798265 

Compare the antenna he replaces in step 9 to what's being sold on eBay. I think anyone who buys this will share his thoughts upon replacement with a real TV antenna.


Do these things have any valid application?


Frank


----------



## Smoke_signal

I repeat, I get stronger reception and more stations with TWO ganged CM4228s. I have tested and compared ONE CM4228 against TWO CM4228s and the baluns are in proper phase!!!!! Don't try to second guess me when I have seen the actual results!!!!!!!


I have a CM7777 preamp and, when conditions are right, I get plenty of signal and similar signal response whether I use 25 or 200 feet of RG6 cable despite cable loss. Moving the antenna upslope and higher with 200 feet of cable brings in stronger signals and more stations than having the antenna next to my mobile home with 25 feet of cable! Cable loss is NOT the problem!!!!!!!!!!! When the UHF signal fails to reach the antenna, the cable doesn't make a damn bit of difference!


My problem is SOLELY due to inadequate and widely varying UHF signal strengths over time during the day. My equipment is the best available to consumers and properly setup. My converter box is the latest Zenith DTT901. This is a problem of inadequate UHF signal transmission to cover foothill regions in the local television service area. There is nothing I can do to improve my equipment any further without erecting a huge expensive antenna tower or sending my antenna up in a blimp!


DTV does not serve the public adequately. The switch from reliable VHF frequencies to UHF frequencies is at fault. Unless the TV stations are also required to provide greater transmission power or repeaters to cover the service areas formerly adequately served by VHF signals, DTV is doing much of the public a disservice.


The government mandated this change. And if the government mandates a change, it must be responsible for the problems caused by that change. The mandate was made with inadequate testing. The public had no information and no way of knowing what the result would be until it was too late and converter boxes were available. This problem needs to be addressed BEFORE February 17, 2009!!!!!!


----------



## seatacboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Smoke_signal* /forum/post/14383979
> 
> 
> DTV does not serve the public adequately. The switch from reliable VHF frequencies to UHF frequencies is at fault. Unless the TV stations are also required to provide greater transmission power or repeaters to cover the service areas formerly adequately served by VHF signals, DTV is doing much of the public a disservice.
> 
> 
> The government mandated this change. And if the government mandates a change, it must be responsible for the problems caused by that change. The mandate was made with inadequate testing. The public had no information and no way of knowing what the result would be until it was too late and converter boxes were available. This problem needs to be addressed BEFORE February 17, 2009!!!!!!



Your frustration level is manifest. Perhaps you should write directly to your U.S. Senators and U.S. Representative, as well as to your local OTA TV stations. By no means are you the only person affected by the sloppy flaws caused by the legislatively-mandated transition from analog OTA to digital OTA.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Smoke_signal* /forum/post/14383979
> 
> 
> ...DTV does not serve the public adequately.



DTV serves the public adequately but does not serve the entire population in every location in the US adequately.

NTSC didn't either.


Like I said before, there are still ways for you to get free TV. FTA is one of them.


----------



## iwakuni

Live in relatively flat Iowa. Approx. 60 miles max to the most distant tower - most are 55 miles @ 263 degrees. MY antenna will be approx. 18 ft in air. Which would be better the Cm 4221 or the Antennacraft U-4000? or should I be looking at different antennas? The channels I will receive are 28 to 50.


----------



## nwiser




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14382654
> 
> 
> Yeah, Ive seen that flimsy 5 foot mast pole Lowes sells for almost $7. Take it back and go to their garden / fencing section. You can get the 10 foot chain link fencing pole that is the same size OD and much stronger for a little over $9. If youre going to use 34 ft of pole, youre going to need a good guy wire system.



Thanks...I went by Lowes earlier and saw the fence pole you are talking about. It does indeed look sturdier than the 5 ft pole they have sitting by their antennas, so I'm still probably gonna get 2 of them unless anyone else knows of a place to get better ones. I just remeasured the free one and the pole is 1 and 1/4 inch wide, and the metal is approximately 2mm thick.


If I get two 10 ft sections from lowes, I'm probably gonna use the shorter heavy duty section I got for free to set the antenna and rotator on, then the Lowes stuff, then the longer free heavy duty section on the bottom. I'm planning on attaching it to the side of my house via brackets, not on top of my roof...so do I still need guy wires? Would it make sense to pour a shallow concrete base for it?


As my TVfool info showed a few pages ago, I live less than 15 miles from most of my local towers but my antenna is directional and after Feb 09 I'm planing on having it aimed at a VHF transmitter roughly 45 miles away (which is more or less where its aimed now) so that I can pick up the Fox station I like to watch. I pick up all my locals ok but since the antenna isnt aimed at them one can understand why they arent all coming in at 90%+. Would a preamp help?


I get the impression that the ChannelMaster 7777 is the best preamp...or is it just the most popular?


Also, as far as rotators go, what's the general consensus on the best one for the price paid?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Smoke_signal* /forum/post/14383979
> 
> 
> I repeat, I get stronger reception and more stations with TWO ganged CM4228s. I have tested and compared ONE CM4228 against TWO CM4228s and the baluns are in proper phase!!!!! Don't try to second guess me when I have seen the actual results!!!!!!!



How do you know they are in phase? The easiest way to tell is to physically swap leads on one and confirm that you have a forward null with the antennas properly aimed. Then switch it back. If you've already done this then OK. Just trying to help here.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Smoke_signal* /forum/post/14383979
> 
> 
> Cable loss is NOT the problem!!!!!!!!!!!



No argument from me there.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Smoke_signal* /forum/post/14383979
> 
> 
> My problem is SOLELY due to inadequate and widely varying UHF signal strengths over time during the day. My equipment is the best available to consumers and properly setup. My converter box is the latest Zenith DTT901. This is a problem of inadequate UHF signal transmission to cover foothill regions in the local television service area. There is nothing I can do to improve my equipment any further without erecting a huge expensive antenna tower or sending my antenna up in a blimp!



Maybe, maybe not. You could be in a particularly difficult reception area or maybe there's still something we haven't figured out yet. Are you inputting to the "uhf only" port on the 7777 or the "combined"? If you are using the combined port, be sure the FM trap is "in". You might actually get better results by using the "uhf only" port and switching the other internal switch in the 7777 to "separate". This will filter most if not all FM but obviously will also filter vhf.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14383196
> 
> 
> Yep, its about 1 db loss per 18 ft, 5.55 db loss per 100 ft at 700 mhz per the Channel Master product catalog. Lower frequencies have less loss.
> 
> .



Those figures apply only when not using a preamp.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/14386269
> 
> 
> Those figures apply only when not using a preamp.



They apply all the time for the coax itself, but the loss in an overall system with a preamp is much different (which I think is what you're trying to say).


The noise temperature Tn of two amplifiers in cascade is the noise temperature of the first plus the noise temperature of the second divided by the gain of the first:


Tn = T1 + T2/G1.


To convert Noise Figure(f) to noise temperature (Tn):


Tn = 290((10^(f/10)) - 1)


The 2.0 dB CM7777 preamp has a noise temperature of 170K at UHF.


Let's say that the Noise Figure of the receiver is 10 dB and the 200' RG6 cable loss is 10 dB for total Noise Figure of 20 dB. The receiver noise temperature is 28710K


Then the system noise temperature for the 2.0 dB NF 26 dB gain preamp is:

170 + 28710/398 (26 dB) = 242K


To convert from noise temperature back to Noise Figure:


NF = 10 log(1 + Tn/290)


So the system Noise Figure with the CM7777 preamp and 200 feet of coax is 2.64 dB. The -0.64 dB difference over 0 feet of coax is almost imperceptible.


Ron


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/14386963
> 
> 
> ........So the system Noise Figure with the CM7777 preamp and 200 feet of coax is 2.64 dB. The -0.64 dB difference over 0 feet of coax is almost imperceptible.
> 
> 
> Ron




Yeah, that's what I was trying to say.










Thanks for the excellent (impressive) explanation.


Please do the same calculation for 200ft of RG11 for illustrative purposes if you have time.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I'm planning on attaching it to the side of my house via brackets, not on top of my roof...so do I still need guy wires? Would it make sense to pour a shallow concrete base for it?



If you have more than about 7 - 10 feet of unsupported mast, then I would guy wire it. A concrete base for it is good. Also with the chain link fence pole section, youll want to also get the set screw connector there too for joining the two sections.


If your total cable length is over 40 ft, then a preamp makes sense. The ChannelMaster 7777 is the best available low noise residential preamp for UHF, unless you are willing to spend a few hundred on a lower noise model.

If you want to spend a little less, the Channel Master Spartan series are also excellent preamps.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Smoke_signal* /forum/post/14383979
> 
> 
> DTV does not serve the public adequately. The switch from reliable VHF frequencies to UHF frequencies is at fault.



I agree with that statement.


The more hills there are, the more prevalent the problem. Some stations are switching back to VHF and will do so on February 17, 2009. The FCC is granting such permits as quickly as they can.


Yet there are even more posters here who argue that smaller UHF antennas for the average user outweighs the VHF coverage advantage. Personally, I don't believe in small antennas, so VHF all the way!


Are your pair of 4228s ganged one above the other or side by side? The author of the stacking web site guesses that one over the other may outperform side by side, but I've never tested that theory. I'd love to know the answer.


----------



## Smoke_signal




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/14387282
> 
> 
> Are your pair of 4228s ganged one above the other or side by side? The author of the stacking web site guesses that one over the other may outperform side by side, but I've never tested that theory. I'd love to know the answer.



The 4228s are stacked vertically on the same mast. And yes, I did switch balun polarity to test for proper phase the very first thing when I set the antennas up. There is a very obvious big loss of signal when the baluns are out of phase. Disconnecting one antenna also causes loss of signal and reception of fewer stations.


Since I moved the antennas up slope, atmospheric conditions have only gotten worse. I barely receive any DTV at all now. This is the time of year the government should be testing DTV. Not during the more stable winter months.


I've been forced to spend a small fortune in money and time to try to keep receiving OTA TV in February. The way things now look, I will have NO reliable TV at all after February with the possible exception of two stations switching to VHF, but at much reduced power levels compared to current analog transmisions. I can ill afford to waste this money. Failure by the government to adequately test DTV prior to the mandate and properly advise the public in fringe locations as to whether or not they should throw away money on this fiasco is unconscionable.


TV stations running continuous ads saying all you need to do to keep receiving TV in February is just add a simple easy to install converter box for which the nice government will even give you a $40 coupon is total hogwash. They don't even mention expensive antenna systems and the fact that most portable TVs will no longer function. Even if you have a portable DTV set, you'd have to haul a huge antenna system with you any time you leave a metro area.


Yes, I'm sure many will be happy with DTV, but this should not come at the expense of all those who will lose TV reception through no fault of their own!


----------



## cpcat

You have other options for TV as others have said. D* is what I use.


Just for perspective I live 65 miles from my nearest metropolitan area and there are pics below of my setup. Stable reception of most stations actually occurs with only a dual stack and the quad is really just for fun.


----------



## videobruce

AFAIC, I hope you NEVER get a single OTA station with your refusal or inability to read by not suppling your location as requested.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/14390227
> 
> 
> AFAIC, I hope you NEVER get a single OTA station with your refusal or inability to read by not suppling you location as requested.



Heh, and "No soup for him, come back one year".


I dont know whats more maddening, not getting the station at all or getting it and having it drop out in the middle of the good section of a program.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Smoke_signal* /forum/post/14389549
> 
> 
> I will have NO reliable TV at all after February with the possible exception of two stations switching to VHF, but at much reduced power levels compared to current analog transmisions.



It takes less power for DTV reception than analog reception.


----------



## PCTools

There is no way you can attach RG-11 to the 91XG. I would use RG6 off the antenna into your pre-amp, and then convert to RG-11 down.


RG-11 is difficult to work with. However, you can get it for $30 (100ft) with ends on it from Rwantenna on Ebay.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *abbycat* /forum/post/14382720
> 
> 
> Anyone with suggestions for routing RG-11 off balun of this antenna? Could I cable tie it to the lower reflecter and then to the mast, or should I loop it back and secure it to the boom then down the mast?
> 
> 
> - & I answer my own question here .
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...t=xg91+routing


----------



## Lmvine

About 45 miles from major TV antenna farm. My 23 year old RS yagi & dist amp do OK but looking to replace with UHF yagi. Are there any that stop at ch 59, most I've seen go to ch 69 (such as Terrestrial Digital 42XG) which will be unnecessary after Feb.


----------



## MeowMeow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Smoke_signal* /forum/post/14383979
> 
> 
> I repeat, I get stronger reception and more stations with TWO ganged CM4228s. I have tested and compared ONE CM4228 against TWO CM4228s and the baluns are in proper phase!!!!! Don't try to second guess me when I have seen the actual results!!!!!!!



Way to keep the tone of the conversation cordial.


I'm not second guessing you. I'm suggesting that you use a 7/16" wrench and just see, for grins, whether or not going with one CM 4228 helps.


DTV is not always about signal strength as much as signal stability. A ganged antenna introduces some variables. It adds a feed line issue. It can also soak more unwanted signals.


And exactly where the bloody hell do you live? A ZIP code would, as others have mentioned, help tremendously in assessing your issues. It would help determine if there are co-channel issues, overloads, etc. Hell, all your DTV channels might be VHF-low for all we know.


In all seriousness, mellow out and provide some answers. It takes a real talent to come off as an ass on AVS Forum. This is a helpful place, but you have to check your ego at the door and answer the other nice people nicely when they ask you a question.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/14389872
> 
> 
> You have other options for TV as others have said. D* is what I use.



Or FTA (FreeToAir) satellite.



> Quote:
> Just for perspective I live 65 miles from my nearest metropolitan area and there are pics below of my setup. Stable reception of most stations actually occurs with only a dual stack and the quad is really just for fun.



Now, *that's* an antenna setup!


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/14394329
> 
> 
> Or FTA (FreeToAir) satellite.



Does FTA=BUD?


I'm lucky my wife allows what I have now.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/14394329
> 
> 
> 
> Now, *that's* an antenna setup!



It's worthwhile to note that I'm lucky to have all of my most desired channels in the low uhf band. This has allowed me to use dedicated low uhf band antennas (Triax Unix 100A (uhf 14-38). This increases performance significantly in-band but drops off like a cliff out of band.


Even with a quad of Televes DAT 75's (wide band uhf) my CBS on uhf 30 is still not consistent.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Now, that's an antenna setup!



Now if only the goverment would give us people in the fringes a $500 coupon to get that, we might be happy, heh.
















Hmm, on second thought, they should throw in another $500 coupon for vhf-hi and vhf-low too while theyre at it.




> Quote:
> Yagi Recommend?
> 
> About 45 miles from major TV antenna farm. My 23 year old RS yagi & dist amp do OK but looking to replace with UHF yagi. Are there any that stop at ch 59, most I've seen go to ch 69 (such as Terrestrial Digital 42XG) which will be unnecessary after Feb.



Channels will stop at 51 next Feb. Right now, pickins' is slim for antennas designed for 2009. Im sure they are trying to clear out their old inventory first, so youll probably have to wait till next year for a broad selection.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14394984
> 
> 
> Hmm, on second thought, they should throw in another $500 coupon for vhf-hi and vhf-low too while theyre at it.




It's actually pretty decent for vhf-hi "through the back" as I can get a consistent signal on a CBS vhf 12 from 55 miles away. VHF-lo, now that's another BEAST altogether. There's a digital 4 70 miles north of me (and it's either the most powerful low band digital in the US or close to it) but even with a Wade/Delhi cut channel 4 (top antenna in pic) I still couldn't get consistent reception.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *seatacboy* /forum/post/14380676
> 
> 
> I've finally had some genuine success, as a dweller in a ground-floor condo unit, obtaining good reception using a 4221 clone placed indoors. I can obtain signal from all 14 Seattle-Tacoma local stations (34 subchannels in all), a feat I had not imagined achieving without a rooftop install that would be a bit more complicated.
> 
> 
> For the fourteen channels, my signal quality (measured by the Zenith DTT900 signal meter) for many stations is roughly 7 to 8, in a few cases it's it's down around 5. There are some dropouts and fluctuation, but this is the best reception I've obtained indoors. Would an antenna preamplifier (i.e. Channel Master 7777) help smooth out those fluctuations? Keep in mind, the transmitters are between 11 and 23 miles away, but I am aware of the risk of amplifier overload.
> 
> 
> Many kind thanks for your suggestions to stabilize reception.



Although indoor location loss makes overload less likely,

you should avoid high gain Preamps like the CM7777.

W-G HDP-269 has much higher overload resistance:
http://www.summitsource.com/product_...oducts_id=5577 

Although Preamps are primarily used to overcome downlead cable loss,

they can also improve overall sensitivity IF overload desensitization can be avoided.


It's worth a try....


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/14391618
> 
> 
> There is no way you can attach RG-11 to the 91XG. I would use RG6 off the antenna into your pre-amp, and then convert to RG-11 down.
> 
> 
> RG-11 is difficult to work with. However, you can get it for $30 (100ft) with ends on it from Rwantenna on Ebay.



Since Preamp Gain reduces the effect of downlead cable loss,

there would be very little difference between using RG-6 and RG-11.


----------



## Splicer010

RG11 is unneccessary for runs under 250'...


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/14386987
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's what I was trying to say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the excellent (impressive) explanation.
> 
> 
> Please do the same calculation for 200ft of RG11 for illustrative purposes if you have time.



You can punch your own numbers into DTV Signal Calculator spread sheet:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=2890


----------



## ctmooregottapee

do you have links or info as to how the 100A is better in the low band versus their wide band model?

what type of arrangement do you have joining the lines of all those antennas together?

whom did you use stateside to import?


and for the vhf you should have tried the 10 element wade cut model, although it would be a beast; i think generally the lower the vhf digital the more power there allowed to compensate for issues with DTV



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/14394449
> 
> 
> It's worthwhile to note that I'm lucky to have all of my most desired channels in the low uhf band. This has allowed me to use dedicated low uhf band antennas (Triax Unix 100A (uhf 14-38). This increases performance significantly in-band but drops off like a cliff out of band.
> 
> 
> Even with a quad of Televes DAT 75's (wide band uhf) my CBS on uhf 30 is still not consistent.
> 
> 
> 
> t's actually pretty decent for vhf-hi "through the back" as I can get a consistent signal on a CBS vhf 12 from 55 miles away. VHF-lo, now that's another BEAST altogether. There's a digital 4 70 miles north of me (and it's either the most powerful low band digital in the US or close to it) but even with a Wade/Delhi cut channel 4 (top antenna in pic) I still couldn't get consistent reception.


----------



## ctmooregottapee

i can tell you why smoke hasn't posted the tvfool plot, because it is going to be horrendous and he knows we all respond that it is hopeless. all his channels will be in the red except for one, the local church channel as jesus always finds a way to come through! they'll all be 55+ miles away, probably 2-3 markets (directions) as well. all will be 2-edge, and tvfool will suggest tower heights well over 100ft to receive 100dbm.


and to correct a number of errors smoke has made...


-ganging does not always mean more signal power; multipath is a huge issue


-you should probably be using more directional yagis with better front to back ratio, with sets aimed at different towers


-you are not using the best equipment as has been noted; there are numerous improvemens and options available


-the FCC has no responsibility or duty, or has ever had in testing tv signals for reception at every signal residence; they just test for interference and market coverage. there is no requirement that any single home receive any useable signals as the FCC is not in the tv business. it is up to your local televesion stations to provide you a signal; some markets are underserved and that is just the fact of life. fortunatley those in troublesome areas have MANY alternate options.


-televison is an entertainment property and no gov't should be using tax dollars to provide it. it is up to each individual to make their channel choices and reception outlays.


-dtv vhf power levels are measured differently than analog, but both provide the same effective power.


-the FCC and gov't has spent millions testing and assisting the public with the coming conversion, much more than many believe they should have - including myself. as the numerous reporst here indicate, reception is fine and dandy and without all the old problems of the past; i sure don't miss the fuzz, snow, rolling picture, analog buzzing, etc.


-the FCC has never been in the business of advising anyone of tv reception equipment or possibilities, that is up to the consumer to pursue.


-antenna sizes are actually smaller not larger with most DTV channels vacating the lower vhf range which requires the huge vhf element antennas people have to use now


-fiasco != BETTER picture, BETTER audio, MORE channels


----------



## Smoke_signal

Sorry, but my VHF antenna is a lot smaller than my UHF antenna. All I need for reliable analog VHF TV is a set of indoor amplified rabbit ears. And I'll take snow over a blank screen any day.


Taxpayers should not fund entertainment, but when a government mandate takes away something that has adequately served the public well for over 60 years and forces people to spend hundreds of dollars on converters and antennas to continue to receive those same services (if they can continue to receive them at all), then the government has to assume responsibility for the problems it causes. The government is planning to auction off frequencies being freed-up by the mandate. Some of that money needs to go to reimbursing those affected by the mandate for antenna systems and loss of service on those frequencies. That's only tit-for-tat. If industries want those frequencies that have been serving the public, then there should be compensation for the cost of the equipment people are forced to buy to continue to receive the exact same services they have already been receiving without having to bear the new expense caused by the government mandate.


By the way, the FCC may not be responsible for this, but NTIA (and Congress) is. And NTIA which has been pushing everybody to buy converters or new DTVs needs to give the public enough information so that can know whether or not to waste any money at all on converters and antennas for DTV signals they cannot receive at all. People just want to continue receiving what they have been receiving. And most people are not "techies". They shouldn't have to deal with preamps, cable loss, ganging antennas, towers and elevated masts for something they already received without any problems with just a pair of rabbit ears.


I won't give out my zip code. I can read the TVFOOL charts as well as anybody else, and I don't need a 100 different opinions. There are no conflicting stations. All stations of interest are all aligned within 5 degrees so I don't need a rotator or antennas pointed in different directions, and almost no station signal reaches here from any other direction, none from the back side of the antenna. It is obvious to me that the problem is due to widely varying and unreliable UHF frequencies caused by insufficient transmission power, hills, trees, distance and atmospheric effects. My antenna system receives strong signals when the atmospheric conditions are right and unviewable signals when conditions are not right. Only increasing antenna height could improve the situation, but that's impractical and too costly. I have no problem with analog VHF. Analog UHF here has always been lousy. Having DTV on UHF means DTV is also lousy. But at least I can watch an analog UHF program through the snow. Analog UHF on my CM4228 antenna system similarily goes from good to bad.


Free TV on satellite is not an option. I know nothing about it and I have already spent more than I can afford on a UHF antenna system. I don't want to waste any more time or money trying any more technology. All I want is to be able to continue to receive the stations I have been receiving for years without any complaints or extra costs. And when I can establish some idea of how many people are similarily affected, I will be directing my correspondence to government representatives and officials. I am sure I am not alone, but I can't have any influence if I act alone.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctmooregottapee* /forum/post/14396215
> 
> 
> do you have links or info as to how the 100A is better in the low band versus their wide band model?
> 
> what type of arrangement do you have joining the lines of all those antennas together?
> 
> whom did you use stateside to import?



Triax's website doesn't supply gain graphs, but Funke's does and the comparison should be similar. Compare the 4591 (21-38) model pdf with the 4591(21-69) model pdf.
http://www.funke.nl/subcategorie.php?type=sub&id=52 


I use a Lindsay 4 way uhf stripline combiner. A similar product can be had here: http://www.hamtv.com/oal.html 


I get the antennas from CPC:
http://cpc.farnell.com/AP00620/aeria...u=triax-108791 

You have to phone them. They wont' do international orders online.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/14386987
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's what I was trying to say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the excellent (impressive) explanation.
> 
> 
> Please do the same calculation for 200ft of RG11 for illustrative purposes if you have time.



Rather than do a lot of spot calculations, it's probably more useful to develop some "rule of thumb" from the equations.


"To only suffer 1 dB additional system noise figure over the noise figure of the preamp itself requires that the preamp gain is 4 dB more than the total of the coax loss and receiver noise figure."


In other words, if your coax loss is 3 db and your receiver noise figure is 7 dB (for a total of 10 dB), the preamp gain required is 14 dB.


Let's test the premise with a 2.0 dB NF preamp at 26 dB, 20 dB and 14 dB gain.


170 + 2610 / 398 (26 dB) = 176K or 2.06 dB


170 + 2610 / 100 (20 dB) = 196K or 2.24 dB


170 + 2610 / 25 (14 dB) = 274K or 2.89 dB


The idea is to match the preamp gain to the coax loss and receiver noise figure. More gain buys you very little improvement in signal to noise ratio but a lot of degradation in overload performance.


Ron


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Smoke_signal* /forum/post/14397787
> 
> 
> ... I will be directing my correspondence to government representatives and officials...



Good luck, but the only change you'll likely see is increased power and/or additional DT translator stations, which have been held back until analog is shutoff.


Everyone cannot get every wireless service available. My neighbor can't get a cell signal at his house or even in the yard. But the FCC isn't going to redo the cell phone system because there isn't 100% coverage. Same for television. It ain't gonna happen, so deal with it. If you really mustseeTV, save your money for a FTA sat system. They're not that expensive. Personally, I would just do without. Most stuff on TV nowadays is junk, anyway.


I don't understand your reluctance to even give out a ZIP Code. Unless you're the only resident in that ZIP. Perhaps the black helicopters are interrupting your TV signal.


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> I won't give out my zip code.



Obviously paranoid and anti social. Must have something to hide.


> Quote:
> I don't need a 100 different opinions.



IOW's he doesn't need anyones help.


I don't know why you guys are wasteing your time on him.


----------



## johnied

Oh goodness. Forum Trolls, you even see one here now and again.

The Good thing about it is, they are easy to spot.



As for digital television being worthless, what bs that is.. I live twenty five miles from

all of my stations and was never able to get good,decent quality picture over the air

here.. but with ATSC I can sit and watch five channels locally, and two more from seventy miles away with a simple outside vhf beam antenna a few feet long.


So nah, I dont need to hear the whining. 



John


----------



## videobruce

Now I hope you aren't referring to me considering I tried to help him and he wouldn't cooperate and this is your only post in this thread.


----------



## PCTools

Understood, but it has nice bragging rights.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/14395386
> 
> 
> RG11 is unneccessary for runs under 250'...


----------



## johnied

Nope, not you. The guy who whined about digital tv being worthless and wouldnt even give his zip for folks to help him. 



John


----------



## bozey45

There are several stations I receive digital only and can't even see their analog signal or can barely see it. So far, I'm impressed with the DTV world but we'll see how this all comes out in feb. Am looking forward to that day myself!


----------



## Smoke_signal




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/14398222
> 
> 
> Everyone cannot get every wireless service available. My neighbor can't get a cell signal at his house or even in the yard. But the FCC isn't going to redo the cell phone system because there isn't 100% coverage. Same for television. It ain't gonna happen, so deal with it. If you really mustseeTV, save your money for a FTA sat system. They're not that expensive.



The difference is cellular phone service has not previously existed at your neighbor's house. TV service has always existed at my home. How would you like it if your mail was no longer delivered to you?


----------



## holl_ands

If that's what you want, check into some 5/8-inch or larger Heliax cable:
http://www.rfparts.com/heliaxcoax.html


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/14403023
> 
> 
> If that's what you want, check into some 5/8-inch or larger Heliax cable:
> http://www.rfparts.com/heliaxcoax.html



I can't find an F connector for 1 5/8" Heliax. That big stuff is all 50 ohms!


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/14403443
> 
> 
> I can't find an F connector for 1 5/8" Heliax. That big stuff is all 50 ohms!



You want 75ohm cable...NOT 50ohm...


----------



## mlmahon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/14403443
> 
> 
> I can't find an F connector for 1 5/8" Heliax. That big stuff is all 50 ohms!



Details, Details.........


----------



## nwiser

Any one have any thoughts on the Eagle Aspen ROTR100? I noticed that it uses coax cable for its signal instead of the three wire cable like others do, which would be convenient for me to not have to drill any more holes to run wire through.


Three wires or not, what's the general opinion as to the best rotator available?


----------



## MeowMeow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/14398334
> 
> 
> Obviously paranoid and anti social. Must have something to hide.IOW's he doesn't need anyones help.



I'm putting my money on "he lives 6 miles from the furthest towers" and it just dawned upon him a ganged antenna would be a really bad idea in that scenario.


----------



## videobruce

johnied; Ok, but one would never know that since you posted directly after me.


If we ignore this anti social, ultra paranoid whinner, he might go away. I bet he lives just outside of East Farmers Bumf*ck, in the middle of nowhere and wonders why he can't get anything.


----------



## Lmvine




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nwiser* /forum/post/14405448
> 
> 
> Any one have any thoughts on the Eagle Aspen ROTR100? I noticed that it uses coax cable for its signal instead of the three wire cable like others do, which would be convenient for me to not have to drill any more holes to run wire through.
> 
> 
> Three wires or not, what's the general opinion as to the best rotator available?



nwiser - check this discussion
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...+Aspen+ROTR100


----------



## videobruce

Cool find!










It hasn't been a problem for, what, 40 years now to run two wires from antenna to TV, why should it be any different now? The loss through those two devices just isn't worth it. It might not make much difference with anlaog, but this isn't your Fathers TV any more.


----------



## nwiser




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Lmvine* /forum/post/14406900
> 
> 
> nwiser - check this discussion
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...+Aspen+ROTR100



thank you for pointing me to that thread. it seems that running it through the coax causes up to 5 db loss on some frequencies...and the main reviewer ended up running a seperate wire with f connectors on each end anyway. I already have coax running into my house from the previous owners cable installation, and since I'm not much of a handyman I was hoping I could get away with just using it for everything. darn.


I have a cordless drill but I dont have a bit long enough to drill through the cinderblock into my basement...so if I run additional wiring I have to go buy a long masonry bit....and then after the holes are drilled I have to seal off the gap with something. I could use some silicone caulk I guess...though some of the other holes that have been sealed around look like they have this black/grey rubbery stuff around them...anyone have a guess as to what that stuff might be?


Since it looks like I will need to use a rotor with its own wire...what's the best one for the money?


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nwiser* /forum/post/14408717
> 
> 
> I could use some silicone caulk I guess...though some of the other holes that have been sealed around look like they have this black/grey rubbery stuff around them...anyone have a guess as to what that stuff might be?


 Butyl rubber caulk .


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/14403799
> 
> 
> You want 75ohm cable...NOT 50ohm...



With typical antenna VSWR of 3:1 and ATSC Tuner VSWR not much better,

50 vs 75-ohm won't make much difference....

might even be better.....


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> I already have coax running into my house from the previous owners cable installation



How old is it? I would just replace it with RG6.


> Quote:
> I'm not much of a handyman I was hoping I could get away with just using it for everything.



How much of a "handyman" do you have to be to drill a hole?


> Quote:
> I dont have a bit long enough to drill through the cinderblock into my basement...so if I run additional wiring I have to go buy a long masonry bit.



Ok and............


> Quote:
> I could use some silicone caulk I guess.



Almost anything. Since it is above ground on a vertical surface, you have no concern about anything.


> Quote:
> Since it looks like I will need to use a rotor with its own wire...what's the best one for the money?



Your are already here.


If you don't care about repeated accuracy (which is the selling point of this), anything will do. Even though they are all imported, I would only deal with models from Channel Master since you have their support vs dealing with a no name wonder.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> ...so if I run additional wiring I have to go buy a long masonry bit....



Or you could buy a drill bit extention. That may come in handy on other projects.


----------



## nwiser

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but is all RG-6 quad shield cable the same?


I've looked at some places like Summit Source, Solid signal, Amazon.com, etc...and the prices seem to vary. What's a reasonable price one should expect to pay for 100ft of RG6 quad shielded cable?


Is the more expensive stuff the price it is only for the name...or is there a quality difference in manufacturers? Is it a big deal to get the copper coated vs. solid copper cable? Also are the compression F-connectors better than the crimp on ones?


----------



## alphanguy

I have a station that currently shows no signal during the day, and 20-30 percent every night, but not enough to lock on (on my STB, it takes about 50 percent to lock on) and it does lock on occasionally a couple nights a week. TVfool lists it's signal for me at -127.9 . This station will be increasing it's power after transition, and my signal for this station after transition is listed at -113.1. Roughly, how much of a difference in reception might this translate into? The station is goin from 48 KW to 1000 KW


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alphanguy* /forum/post/14420152
> 
> 
> I have a station that currently shows no signal during the day, and 20-30 percent every night, but not enough to lock on (on my STB, it takes about 50 percent to lock on) and it does lock on occasionally a couple nights a week. TVfool lists it's signal for me at -127.9 . This station will be increasing it's power after transition, and my signal for this station after transition is listed at -113.1. Roughly, how much of a difference in reception might this translate into? The station is goin from 48 KW to 1000 KW



Every 3db is a doubling of signal power. (does this rule apply to TVFool figures ?) So 127.9 minus 113.1 equals 14.8, almost 15db. So that would be 3 X 3 x 3 x 3 x 3 = about 243 times more signal. Even at -113.1dbm, you may not get that station consistantly.


----------



## ToddUGA

I finally got around to taking pictures of my 91XG/VIP306 setup.

http://bp3.blogger.com/_mu3nxD8i5WE/...h/100_3622.JPG 


This is a pretty potent combo for deep fringe reception.


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ToddUGA* /forum/post/14422540
> 
> 
> I finally got around to taking pictures of my 91XG/VIP306 setup.
> 
> http://bp3.blogger.com/_mu3nxD8i5WE/...h/100_3622.JPG
> 
> 
> This is a pretty potent combo for deep fringe reception.



And, it appears, the birds like it, too.


----------



## Splicer010

No rotor???


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/14423206
> 
> 
> No rotor???



Some of us don't really have two good locations to aim at. All of mine, for example, are pretty much in the same area:











Just point a stacked 91XG and YA-1713 to maximize KNVA and KTBC and I'm set. The YA-1713 is primarily for when KTBC returns to channel 7 in February.


----------



## ToddUGA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/14423206
> 
> 
> No rotor???



Nope. All of our towers are in the same direction. I get ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, and PBS in HD.


----------



## PCTools

You may want to attach the coax to your mask pipe, as it is causing additional stress on the antenna leads. This will break in a matter of time.


Also, route the coax out the back of your 91XG.


Nice set-up, but cable management is POOR.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ToddUGA* /forum/post/14422540
> 
> 
> I finally got around to taking pictures of my 91XG/VIP306 setup.
> 
> http://bp3.blogger.com/_mu3nxD8i5WE/...h/100_3622.JPG
> 
> 
> This is a pretty potent combo for deep fringe reception.


----------



## PCTools

These Channel Master antennas look so CHEAP...


Cost cutting again...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *n4yqt* /forum/post/14424187
> 
> 
> Channel Master's new line up of antennas:
> 
> 
> New versions of the UHF CM-42xx series of antennas:
> 
> http://www.channelmasterintl.com/doc...nas_200807.pdf
> 
> 
> Don't they look familiar (DB2, DB4, DB8)? It looks like Channel Master has sold out their souls to the devil (China). How disappointing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is their complete new line up of antennas:
> 
> http://www.channelmasterintl.com/doc...g_20080731.pdf
> 
> 
> If you are looking for a Channel Master antenna, you had better snatch up their 'old line' stock of traditional antennas before they disappear, otherwise go with a Winegard product.


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *n4yqt* /forum/post/14424187
> 
> 
> Channel Master's new line up of antennas:
> 
> 
> New versions of the UHF CM-42xx series of antennas:



I wonder if they resized them to work better in the channel 14 - 52 range.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler

I can't help but notice that a lot of the models aren't available until the end of 2008.


I've not seen a lot of comment on this, but doesn't winter weather cause a great difficulty to an installer's ability to work on a roof or even a tower?


Could a worse time of year for our transition to have been chosen than February?


And shouldn't a company like CM have seen this coming and had their products available for a couple years ahead of time for people to have bought them and installed them before winter weather hit?


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/14425080
> 
> 
> I've not seen a lot of comment on this, but doesn't winter weather cause a great difficulty to an installer's ability to work on a roof or even a tower?
> 
> 
> Could a worse time of year for our transition to have been chosen than February?



In Texas? Yes -- July or August when the temperature on a metal roof or composite shingles can get up to 150º or higher. Working outside in February is a treat out here for installers.


----------



## ToddUGA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/14424765
> 
> 
> You may want to attach the coax to your mask pipe, as it is causing additional stress on the antenna leads. This will break in a matter of time.



Most of the coax IS connected to the mast with two exceptions...the coax running from the 91XG to the mast (it is attached once it reaches the mast) and from the mast (where, again, it is attached) to the balun on the 306. The coax running to the 306 serves more as a sort of drip loop to keep water from constantly flowing over the balun and seeping into the coax when it rains. I'll take replacing a balun to replacing water logged coax.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/14424765
> 
> 
> Also, route the coax out the back of your 91XG.



The coax IS routed out the back of the 91XG. Not sure what picture you are looking at. It runs out the back of the 91XG through the screen (per the instructions that came with the 91XG), then back to the mast where it is attached (instead of running it straight to the 7777 and putting stress on the UHF input), then up to the CM777. The slack cable coming out the back of the 91XG is pretty much unavoidable.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/14424765
> 
> 
> Nice set-up, but cable management is POOR.



Poor? The only bit of coax that may be a little poor is the coax running from the mast to the 306. Considering it has survived a direct hit from an F0 tornado as well as a ton of southern thunder storms, I think it works pretty well. But thanks for your constructive criticism. Feel free to post pictures of your setup so we can see how it's done.


----------



## 300ohm

The top part of board of a Radio Shack/Archer 15-1117 10db preamp cut open:










The bottom part of the board:


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mclapp* /forum/post/14425032
> 
> 
> I wonder if they resized them to work better in the channel 14 - 52 range.



Very hard to tell, especially since the new catalog lists 2 different dimension for the CM4228. The original was 5"L X 39.5"W X 36"H, and thats what is listed in the bottom specs of the catalog for the new one.

But under the picture of it, it lists 5"L X 49"W X 32" H. So they may have, but they shortened the height ??


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> Sorry if this is a stupid question, but is all RG-6 quad shield cable the same?



Stupid, no. Asked before, yes.

No they aren't. Are all 4 cylinder engines the same?


Solid vs stranded vs copper clad center,

Percent of braid coverage & type of and amount of foil shield,

Quality of dielectric and outer jacket,

Where it is made.


All the 'cheaper' stuff is from China. I would *NOT* buy from Summit Source. They run misleading product listings and threaten you with fees if you chalenge a charge. I'm also less inclinded to buy from Solid Signal.


----------



## videobruce

300ohm; nice pics. A good reason I would never buy anything like that, RS or not.


----------



## MeowMeow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/14427582
> 
> 
> All the 'cheaper' stuff is from China. I would *NOT* buy from Summit Source. They run misleading product listings and threaten you with fees if you chalenge a charge. I'm also less inclinded to buy from Solid Signal.



It might help to add where you would buy buy from. Trusted recommendations on buying are always helpful.


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nwiser* /forum/post/14420026
> 
> 
> Is the more expensive stuff the price it is only for the name...or is there a quality difference in manufacturers? Is it a big deal to get the copper coated vs. solid copper cable? Also are the compression F-connectors better than the crimp on ones?



Copper coated versus solid matters only if you are running a long run with DC power (between power injector and pre-amp, for instance) or other low-frequency signals. Though even the voltage drop from the entire 100 feet of copper-coated steel (which presents about 3 ohms of resistance) probably wouldn't bother a pre-amp much.


The next thing to consider is braid coverage, which runs from miserable (some radio shack cables) to 95%, with 60% being pretty typical. I've found 60% to be adequate, but I have no nearby interference sources (like very close TV or FM stations). There's also things like the quality of the dielectric which are harder to quantify. If the cable is very easy to crimp/crease (Phillips, many premade cables), it's probably no good.


----------



## bozey45

I've made 4 purchases from Solid Signal with absolutely no problems with a great price and quick delivery. You must have had a bad experience with them.


----------



## bozey45

ToddUGA that is a nice setup; like mine except because of a tree I couldn't get a 306 so had to go with a shorter Winegard HD5030.


----------



## PCTools

Todd,


Maybe, these pictures will help explain what I mean by cable management. No cables are free to blow in the wind. Your connection is hanging in the air.


I would also move the pre-amp down the pole. (Towards the earth). It is obstructing the pick-up of the antenna.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *ToddUGA* 
Most of the coax IS connected to the mast with two exceptions...the coax running from the 91XG to the mast (it is attached once it reaches the mast) and from the mast (where, again, it is attached) to the balun on the 306. The coax running to the 306 serves more as a sort of drip loop to keep water from constantly flowing over the balun and seeping into the coax when it rains. I'll take replacing a balun to replacing water logged coax.


The coax IS routed out the back of the 91XG. Not sure what picture you are looking at. It runs out the back of the 91XG through the screen (per the instructions that came with the 91XG), then back to the mast where it is attached (instead of running it straight to the 7777 and putting stress on the UHF input), then up to the CM777. The slack cable coming out the back of the 91XG is pretty much unavoidable.


Poor? The only bit of coax that may be a little poor is the coax running from the mast to the 306. Considering it has survived a direct hit from an F0 tornado as well as a ton of southern thunder storms, I think it works pretty well. But thanks for your constructive criticism. Feel free to post pictures of your setup so we can see how it's done.









 

Cable Management.pdf 362.896484375k . file

 

DXing Machine.pdf 222.6318359375k . file


----------



## Don_M

Never had a problem with Summit Source. Sorry you apparently did. BUT... their shipping fees _are_ pretty steep, and that "package handing fee" they impose on many products is a gimmick to make it look like SS has the lowest price in a search result -- when they don't.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is something I picked up for the tools and tricks box.


RS 20db variable attenuator.


----------



## fbov




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mclapp* /forum/post/14425032
> 
> 
> I wonder if they resized them to work better in the channel 14 - 52 range.



The brochure states channels 14-69, not 52, but the dimensions are larger (24.5" vs 20" wide) and smaller (33" vs 36" tall). It's clear the two reflectors are much wider, but they are centered on the pairs, not individual elements, so perhaps element spacing is expanded as well. Can't say a thing about wiskers ...


Frank


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/14427587
> 
> 
> 300ohm; nice pics. A good reason I would never buy anything like that, RS or not.




Yeah. Look how close all the components are to each other. That probably accounts for a lot of the high noise figure from the feedback it probably gets. On my CM 0264 the components are spaced relatively much further apart.


The only transistor in it is labeled :


FR90A

PH47



EscapeVelocity,

what did the Shack charge for it ?


----------



## ThoraX695

In addition, the brochure says the new 4228 "EXTREMEtenna" supports channels *7*-69, not just 14-69. So even though they're losing the continuous screen that allows the current 4228 to pick up high-VHF, they're now explicitly claiming that their new 4228 can pick up high-VHF. They still rate it as a gain of 12.0 dB on UHF like the current 4228. I wonder if the new one is lighter, has a better feed system connecting the left and right 4-bays, and can stand up to ice and snow better than the current generation.


----------



## AntAltMike

I've bought a dozen of that Radio Shack amplifier and they have all served me well because I only use them in situations where they do what I need, which is to boost a weak, light channel load by a small amount. I've used them many times in hotels with PPV movie systems to amplify the sub-band return signals. They are what they are. For most do-it-yourselfers who do not have access to a signal meter, they do not have enough headroom to enable a person to just drop one into an off-air antenna downlead without risking overload.


----------



## cpcat

Everyone needs a variable attenuator.










Seriously. It definitely improves things for me. It seems to "dial things in" placed right before my tuners. I use a preamp on the antenna, and a post amplifier right before the RS attenuator outputting to the tuners. I think probably it allows to adjust for max gain just under the overload point at the tuner's input, but someone else might have a better explanation.


Many also use them to help attenuate multipath.


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ThoraX695* /forum/post/14432624
> 
> 
> In addition, the brochure says the new 4228 "EXTREMEtenna" supports channels *7*-69, not just 14-69. So even though they're losing the continuous screen that allows the current 4228 to pick up high-VHF, they're now explicitly claiming that their new 4228 can pick up high-VHF. They still rate it as a gain of 12.0 dB on UHF like the current 4228. I wonder if the new one is lighter, has a better feed system connecting the left and right 4-bays, and can stand up to ice and snow better than the current generation.



Another question is, have they actually done something to increase high VHF gain or are they just capitalizing on this antenna's modest ability to get some high VHF? Someone who has strong high VHF signals can probably get the 4228 as we know it to suffice, but unless they have done something rather remarkable it's not going to be a high VHF solution for anyone in the deep fringe like it can be for UHF.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Another question is, have they actually done something to increase high VHF gain or are they just capitalizing on this antenna's modest ability to get some high VHF?



Well, they increased the width by 9 1/2 inches. That should help channels 7, 8, 9 anyway.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Picked it up on fleabay.


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> You must have had a bad experience with them.



It is a "bad experiance" when they decept the customer by this;


> Quote:
> their shipping fees are pretty steep, and that "package handing fee" they impose on many products is a gimmick to make it look like SS has the lowest price in a search result -- when they don't.



and threaten axtra fees if you dispute a charge. How many outlest threaten you if you dispute a charge? I never saw one before. That tells me they have had problems in the past with their deceptful pratices, namely the above to name one.


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> Everyone needs a variable attenuator.



Problem with that is;

1. You have no idea how much attenuation you are applying unless you have a SLM,

2. The 'pot' can/will get 'dirty' (corroded/oxidized) after a period of non use which will vary the amount of attenuation applied,

3. It's easy to bump the knob, changing the value.


Better yet is to get a set of different value fixed 'pads' It solves all of the above problems and they aren't expensive.;
http://www.mjsales.net/items.asp?Fam...=265&Cat2ID=93 



You can also get a pad with a number of fixed value resistors switching them in and out of line;


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Better yet is to get a set of different value fixed 'pads' It solves all of the above problems and they aren't expensive.;



It seems they are nothing more than resistors inside. Anything wrong with using a resistor in-line between two F-Connectors ? All that would be needed besides a good VOM is a calibrated attenuation/resistance chart based on vhf/uhf frequencies and 75 ohm cable.


----------



## videobruce

Three resistors inside a RF shielded enclousure. If you want to go through all the trouble.


----------



## shuddle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/14431533
> 
> 
> Todd,
> 
> 
> Maybe, these pictures will help explain what I mean by cable management. No cables are free to blow in the wind. Your connection is hanging in the air.
> 
> 
> I would also move the pre-amp down the pole. (Towards the earth). It is obstructing the pick-up of the antenna.




Our antennas should be here tomorrow and we will be installing them Saturday. Where should the pre-amp CM7777 be installed? Should we put it between the 2 antennas or should it be below the bottom antenna (closest to the earth)? We are planning on 18-24 inches between the antennas. Any greater separation would put the lower antenna right too close to the roofline.


Shuddle


----------



## nybbler

Pico-Macom appears to have a bunch of 75-ohm pads (FAM-series) which will be cheaper and better than anything you can build. The variable might be useful for testing but I wouldn't leave it in any permanent installation.


----------



## hokie93

I've just been given a Antennas Direct DB8 and am going to chiminey mount it. But I can't seem to figure out how to ground it. Since I'm in a cinder block house and the RG6 drop is straight down into the roof.


I don't know if it matters but their is a lightning rod. Could it be used as a ground?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I don't know if it matters but their is a lightning rod. Could it be used as a ground?



If the lightning rod is properly grounded, sure you can. But the new code also requires a ground wire from that ground to the main electrical box.


----------



## hdtvluvr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hokie93* /forum/post/14441340
> 
> 
> I've just been given a Antennas Direct DB8 and am going to chiminey mount it. But I can't seem to figure out how to ground it.



Be sure to ground the antenna and the coax - not just the antenna.


----------



## nwiser




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hdtvluvr* /forum/post/14442390
> 
> 
> Be sure to ground the antenna and the coax - not just the antenna.



hmmm...are there any how to's on that? I know for the coax they make grounding blocks that you pass it through and the ground wire attaches to it, but what about the antenna? Do I drill a hole through the antenna mast and run the ground wire through it...?










Also...if my 4-way splitter, which is inside my house and after my pre-amp/power supply, is grounded, do i still need a grounding block outside for the coax?


Sorry guys...I'm clueless about this stuff.


----------



## hokie93

So I ground the antenna and mast straight to the lightning rod correct? Then where do I attach the coax ground to the house? Since the coax goes striaght down the side of the chiminey into the roof.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hokie93* /forum/post/14448793
> 
> 
> So I ground the antenna and mast straight to the lightning rod correct? Then where do I attach the coax ground to the house? Since the coax goes striaght down the side of the chiminey into the roof.



The antenna is connected to the mast, connect the mast to the lightning rod. For the coax, connect it to a grounding block (available at Lowes and Home Depot) and follow the directions on the package. Youll need a grounding rod for the grounding block and some #6 wire. For more information, download the Channel Master Installation Guide available at their site.


----------



## hdtvluvr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14449363
> 
> 
> Youll need a grounding rod for the grounding block and some #6 wire. For more information, download the Channel Master Installation Guide available at their site.



If the lightning rod is close to the antenna, it's ground rod may also be close to the antenna. If so, couldn't he use the same ground rod for the coax grounding block connection? By doing it this way he wouldn't have to bond the new grounding rod to house ground - assuming the one on the lightning rod is bonded.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> By doing it this way he wouldn't have to bond the new grounding rod to house ground - assuming the one on the lightning rod is bonded



You would think so. And according to the old grounding code that would be fine. But they changed the code and they have that ground running to the electrical box ground for some reason.


----------



## mattdp

So... I picked up a Wade UV936SR antenna from my neighbor who had it removed when he had his roof re-done.


I also have a DIY 30 x 75 screen Dual Bay Gray Hooverman UHF antenna. Both are going to be fed into a Winegard AP-8780 preamp.


My question is: should I get a Pico Macom VHF/UHF combiner or use a simple splitter in reverse. The DBGH should have about 15-16+ dbd of gain on UHF, while the Wade has about 12dbd.


How would this affect performance?


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mattdp* /forum/post/14454440
> 
> 
> So... I picked up a Wade UV936SR antenna from my neighbor who had it removed when he had his roof re-done.
> 
> 
> I also have a DIY 30 x 75 screen Dual Bay Gray Hooverman UHF antenna. Both are going to be fed into a Winegard AP-8780 preamp.
> 
> 
> My question is: should I get a Pico Macom VHF/UHF combiner or use a simple splitter in reverse. The DBGH should have about 15-16+ dbd of gain on UHF, while the Wade has about 12dbd.
> 
> 
> How would this affect performance?



The UVSJ offers 2 advantages over a reversed simple splitter for your needs:


1. Only 0.5 db insertion loss

2. Filters out of band signals


A typical reversed simple splitter will have around 3.0db insertion loss, and does not filter out of band signals.


Hope this helps, Glen


----------



## mattdp

Oh... that's probably true. I guess I'll get a UVSJ then.


----------



## bozey45

thanks to a almost certain visit of FAYE this next week I'll take down the 91-XG and the HD-5030 and put them in the garage. I thought about just letting the telescoping mast down as far as I can and leaving them up but to be on the safe side think I'll just store them until the storm passes. Anyway I'll miss my OTA for a few days but thats the way it goes in "hurricane land."


----------



## mudtoe

Hi folks:


I just recently bought a place in the Naples area and I'm looking to put up an OTA antenna for the hidef local channels. I'd really like to do it as an attic installation due to issues with the HOA and the need to make anything mounted outdoors strong enough not to become a projectile in a hurricane (appropriate timing since Fay is going to pass close by, but I just got done having hurricane shutters put on the place a few days ago, so for once I was ahead of the curve







).


I'm attaching the output of tvfool.com showing the signal strengths for my area. Fortunately everything is in the same direction (north), and the only ones I really need are the major networks (NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX). From what I've read I think I'd need something like the Winegard HD-1080 with a pre-amp. I was looking at that one because one of the channels is going to remain in the high end of VHF, so I was thinking that some of the others like the CM 4228 might not work well because of the VHF channel. Also, the roof is the basic Florida style tile roof, single story, and since this is in a golf community all the villas are close together so I have a neighbor about 15 to 20 feet to my direct north with an identical villa (not sure if the signal would have to go through his attic first to get into my attic since he is between me and the transmitters).


Thoughts and suggestions welcome.



Thanks,


mudtoe


----------



## Don_M

Go with the CM 4228. It's a far better antenna, even for channel 9. Winegard's own specs on the HD-1080 show a channel 9 gain of _negative_ 8 dB -- relatively speaking, that means rabbit ears would be roughly 8 times better. The '4228, on the other hand, has channel 9 gain of about 4 dB (see the plots for several different models under "Using a UHF antenna for VHF" here ).


The HD-1080 wouldn't be a good choice at your distance from the stations when mounted up on the roof, much less in the attic. It's too weak, even for the UHF stations. The CM 4228 is a much better choice in your situation.


If the antenna is intended to serve just one receiver, you may or may not need an antenna-mounted pre-amp. If this is the case, install the antenna first and then add an amp later if necessary. You'll probably need a pre-amp, though, if you'll be distributing signals among two or more sets.


----------



## mudtoe

The graphs were pretty interesting. Sounds like I need to get a 4228. With regard to the pre-amp, if I get one does it matter which end of the cable I put it on? I'm kind of thinking it does and that it should be as close to the antenna as possible, but that's just intuition on my part. Unfortunately I don't think that there are any power outlets in the attic, so that would mean installing an outlet, or running an extension cord from the garage to the attic, which I'm sure a code inspector would frown upon.


mudtoe


----------



## Don_M

Your intuition is correct: A pre-amp goes as close to the antenna as possible. Fortunately, they don't require a nearby outlet. All pre-amps work with a power injector inside the house that sends direct current up the coax even as the pre-amp sends signals down the cable. The injector is placed inline near the receiver (in the case of just one) or just before the splitter (if signals are going to more than one TV).


I understand why an attic antenna is desirable for you, but they do have drawbacks. Instead of repeating everything here, please read the section on attic installations in HDTV Primer . One thing it doesn't specifically mention is tile roofs: Since most tiles are made of concrete, they're signal killers, too.


When you have the time, please read the rest of the primer's comprehensive section on TV antennas . It's well worth reading, even if it does get technical at times.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> and the need to make anything mounted outdoors strong enough not to become a projectile in a hurricane



See what the TVFool numbers look like with 20 or 25 ft in the air. Yes, you would want the antenna mounted strong enough so that it doesnt become a projectile in a hurricane, but thats not all that hard to do. In a hurricane, there will be a lot more other projectiles to worry about, heh.


----------



## tetonca




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14420251
> 
> 
> Every 3db is a doubling of signal power. (does this rule apply to TVFool figures ?) So 127.9 minus 113.1 equals 14.8, almost 15db. So that would be 3 X 3 x 3 x 3 x 3 = about 243 times more signal. Even at -113.1dbm, you may not get that station consistantly.



3db is 2x power; 6 db is 4x power; 9 db is 8x power; 12 db is 16x power and 15 db is 32x power. That's what 'every 3db is a doubling of signal power' means.


That's only an approximation; the +10db intercepts are solid, however:


+10db means 10x power (+20db means 100x power and +30db means 1000x power).


14.8db is somewhere above 25.1x power (14db) and below 31.6x power (the 15db intercept to one decimal).


Wikipedia lists this factor as 1.9953 (every 3db is an increase in power by 1.9953):


+3db x 1.9953 (~ x2

+6db x 3.9812 (~ x4)

+9db x 7.9437 (~ x8)

+10db x 10.0000

+12db x 15.8501 (~ x16)

+15db x 31.6258 (~ x32)

+20db x 100.0000

+30db x 1000.0000.


This can be graphed (simply) to get the in-between values.


----------



## tetonca




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14450366
> 
> 
> You would think so. And according to the old grounding code that would be fine. But they changed the code and they have that ground running to the electrical box ground for some reason.



Has to do with lack of equipotential grounds if it isn't done this way.


When the storm cloud passes overhead, the ground potential of the electrical service entrance goes up, and if the lightning rod (or antenna mast) ground rod isn't bonded to the service entrance ground, a large potential difference arises between the two grounds. This places the sensitive (radio receiver) equipment between two grounds at different potentials.


Because of impedance issues, two 8' ground rods should be spaced no closer than 16' apart -- it is a mistake to hammer in ground rods every 4' or 6' or .. anything less than twice the length of the ground rod.


I'm recapitulating from what I've read on a forum contributed to by lightning safety professionals; I think I've got it right but as my neighbor woman says 'don't quote me' (I just quoted her).


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tetonca* /forum/post/14466823
> 
> 
> 3db is 2x power; 6 db is 4x power; 9 db is 8x power; 12 db is 16x power and 15 db is 32x power. That's what 'every 3db is a doubling of signal power' means.
> 
> 
> That's only an approximation; the +10db intercepts are solid, however:
> 
> 
> +10db means 10x power (+20db means 100x power and +30db means 1000x power).
> 
> 
> 14.8db is somewhere above 25.1x power (14db) and below 31.6x power (the 15db intercept to one decimal).
> 
> 
> Wikipedia lists this factor as 1.9953 (every 3db is an increase in power by 1.9953):
> 
> 
> +3db x 1.9953 (~ x2
> 
> +6db x 3.9812 (~ x4)
> 
> +9db x 7.9437 (~ x8)
> 
> +10db x 10.0000
> 
> +12db x 15.8501 (~ x16)
> 
> +15db x 31.6258 (~ x32)
> 
> +20db x 100.0000
> 
> +30db x 1000.0000.
> 
> 
> This can be graphed (simply) to get the in-between values.



Graphing it would be very old school. Instead, you can just use this equation:


ratio = 10 ^ (dB/10)


In the built-in Windows calculator, there's a button labeled "x^y" for this. For 14.8 dB:


10 ^ 1.48 = 30.2


Ron


----------



## mattdp

Got 'nother quickie for you experts....


I'm going to be burying cables in a few days, and I'm wondering how deep I should go? I was thinking 3-4 in. Is this overkill? should I go deeper?


Thanks!!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> 3db is 2x power; 6 db is 4x power; 9 db is 8x power; 12 db is 16x power and 15 db is 32x power. That's what 'every 3db is a doubling of signal power' means.



That was already corrected in a now lost post a few posts down from the original. I was stuck on 3's that day, heh.



> Quote:
> Because of impedance issues, two 8' ground rods should be spaced no closer than 16' apart -- it is a mistake to hammer in ground rods every 4' or 6' or .. anything less than twice the length of the ground rod.



Yeah, it would be silly to have them that close, when a simple wire connection will do. Do you have a link to the impedence issues ? That doesnt sound right.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I'm going to be burying cables in a few days, and I'm wondering how deep I should go? I was thinking 3-4 in. Is this overkill? should I go deeper?



If youre going to bury the cables, I would go a little deeper. Buried rubber and soft plastics have a tendency to rise over time in soft ground and in a few years you may be cutting the cable with a lawn mover, heh. From what Ive seen, cable companies go down at least a foot on the run to a house.


----------



## tetonca




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/14467255
> 
> 
> Graphing it would be very old school. Instead, you can just use this equation:
> 
> 
> ratio = 10 ^ (dB/10)
> 
> 
> In the built-in Windows calculator, there's a button labeled "x^y" for this. For 14.8 dB:
> 
> 
> 10 ^ 1.48 = 30.2
> 
> 
> Ron



Thanks, Ron. That gives me the last piece of this (to me) puzzle -- I couldn't figure the reverse equation to '10 log (P2/P1)' -- now I have the whole thing:


10 ^ (db/10) = (P2/P1)


10 log (P2/P1) = dB


tetonca


---- notes to self ----

What is the power ratio for 14.8 dB?


10 ^ (14.8/10) = 30.2


(14.8 dB means multiply the power by 30.2).


How many dB does a power ratio of 30.2 represent?


10 log (30.2/1) = 14.8


(multiplying the power by 30.2 is a 14.8 dB gain)


What is the logarithm of 30.2?


log (30.2) = 1.48


What does '10 log (P2/P1)' mean?


It means to take the logarithm of (P2/P1) and multiply the result by 10.


----------



## tetonca




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14468214
> 
> 
> That was already corrected in a now lost post a few posts down from the original. I was stuck on 3's that day, heh.



Heh. Good thing for me; I pulled more out of the discussion than I've put into it.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14468214
> 
> 
> Yeah, it would be silly to have them that close, when a simple wire connection will do. Do you have a link to the impedence issues ? That doesnt sound right.



Apparently I conflated two different ideas. The 16' separation comes from:



> Quote:
> [ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LightningProtection/ ]
> 
> 
> "How to properly construct a ground system"
> 
> Posted by: "Ed Roberts" [email protected]
> 
> Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 8:31 am ((PDT))
> 
> 
> Ground rods lose effectiveness if placed closer than twice their length. Thus the typical 8' residential rods should be spaced 16' apart for the most effective use of the rods. This spacing is based on a concept called the sphere of influence.




The impedance discussion was in a post on the same group by Ron Hotchkiss:


> Quote:
> "Grounding and Bonding for an LPS and SPDs"
> 
> Posted by: "ronh_17" [email protected]
> 
> Date: Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:43 pm ((PDT))
> 
> 
> There is, of course, merit in having a very low ground resistance. Particularly in an LPS, low grounding impedance (notice the change from "resistance" to "impedance") may aid in the prevention of arcing due to a large difference in potential that may be developed because of a "higher" impedance connection to the earth. Poor connections or even sharp bends can present higher impedance at lightning frequencies.



When he went on about 'lightning frequencies' I had an 'aha' moment. I'd thought of lightning as a DC phenomenon, even though I've 'listened to it' countless times at radio frequencies.


Also, Jack Painter in that group talks about the equipotential issue:


> Quote:
> "How to properly construct a ground system."
> 
> Posted by: "Oceana Radio" [email protected]
> 
> Date: Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:57 am ((PDT))
> 
> 
> Lightning energy enters the structure on the power company system and exits via communication devices and their coaxial feed lines to an isolated grounding system. Had the system been properly bonded in accordance with codes and standards cited below [he cites them later], there would have been an equipotential condition maintained that would serve to limit such current equalizations at the expense of solid state equipment in it's path.



_Yahoo Groups require cookies, and this one requires membership to read any message in it._


I don't have a link, as I get the messages via e-mail rather than via the webbed interface.


tetonca


----------



## mattdp

Cool, thanks.


The entire run goes through the woods, so I don't think lawn mowers will be an issue, it's the rabbits, deer and other things that like to nibble away at it (the previous owners had some crap antenna up there and a run of coax that had some pretty large bight marks in it.


----------



## ctdish

I have burried cables a few inches under my back yard and they last about 10 years. If you want longer life they need to be in a conduit and probably below the frost line.

John


----------



## AntAltMike

The frost line in Rochester, Minnesota is surely over four feet deep. The only place here I have ever had trouble with frost heaved breaking an underground coax is when it was in shifting clay in a defective landfill that also was sliding down the hill.


----------



## mudtoe




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/14465570
> 
> 
> ....
> 
> I understand why an attic antenna is desirable for you, but they do have drawbacks. Instead of repeating everything here, please read the section on attic installations in HDTV Primer . One thing it doesn't specifically mention is tile roofs: Since most tiles are made of concrete, they're signal killers, too.
> 
> 
> When you have the time, please read the rest of the primer's comprehensive section on TV antennas . It's well worth reading, even if it does get technical at times.



I read the information on hdtvprimer and it was very interesting, especially the part about certain antennas having negative gain for some of the VHF channels. I think what I'm going to do is get a 4228 with a pre-amp and try it in the attic first. If that doesn't work, then I'll have to look into mounting it outside. BTW thanks for all the help and pointers. You certainly saved me a lot of leg work, and potentially having to return some stuff that wouldn't have worked.


mudtoe


----------



## bozey45

mudtoe, if the antenna isn't satisfactory in the attic, the HOA cannot stop you from putting up an outside antenna; they might require a back of the house install but other than that they can't stop you, FCC regs. Just let them know what you plan to do and refer them to the 1996 communications act as it refers to antennas.


----------



## mudtoe




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bozey45* /forum/post/14471232
> 
> 
> mudtoe, if the antenna isn't satisfactory in the attic, the HOA cannot stop you from putting up an outside antenna; they might require a back of the house install but other than that they can't stop you, FCC regs. Just let them know what you plan to do and refer them to the 1996 communications act as it refers to antennas.



Yea, I know that, but they can make it a pain in the backside to get it done, and they can be hard to deal with on things that they would rather not have you do, even if it's not specifically forbidden in the covenants. However, if the antenna doesn't work in the attic then I will pursue it, as I don't feel like paying for cable or satellite hidef, especially when I'm not going to be there for a good part of the year.


mudtoe


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I don't think lawn mowers will be an issue, it's the rabbits, deer and other things that like to nibble away at it (the previous owners had some crap antenna up there and a run of coax that had some pretty large bight marks in it.



My guess is rats, they seem to have a taste for cables, heh.


----------



## Ken H




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14473241
> 
> 
> My guess is rats, they seem to have a taste for cables, heh.



Comcast once ran a cable exposed under my back deck, about a 15' run, and it had a run in with a raccoon, we think. You could see where it was gnawed on, big time.


----------



## mattdp

I just got done digging the first 30ft (of 230ft) of trench through the steepest, baddest, rootiest (is that even a word?) section of the woods. After sawing out about five ginormous roots and cutting a buried metal cow fence, I've got about 75ft of nice grassland, then more woods, then a nice clear area right up to the antenna site.


I'm doing about 5-6" depth. Think I should be good.


FWIW, the entire hill is really sandy (we have big chunks of exposed limestone near the top), so the digging's not that bad.


I don't think I'm gonna bury it below the frost line







Our cable line is only a few inches below the surface, and still works great, after 13 years.


Well, I'm back out to the 85 degree, humid, sunny weather.


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mudtoe* /forum/post/14471540
> 
> 
> Yea, I know that, but they can make it a pain in the backside to get it done, and they can be hard to deal with on things that they would rather not have you do, even if it's not specifically forbidden in the covenants.



You don't have to ask permission, the OTARD explicitly mentions that.


----------



## aceinet

I purchased a Channel Master CM 0068DSB preamp that is rated at 23db gain for UHF and 16db gain for VHF. After installing it on the mast near my Channel Master CM4221 antenna my signal strength is practically gone. With the preamp plugged in I'm getting just six VHF channels. When I unplug the preamp my channel count goes up to 10 (6 VHF and 4 UHF digital) channels. Previously without the preamp installed I was able to get most of my channels with only the NBC channel being a problem from time to time. I am a little over 30 miles away from the main towers according to tvfool. Am I getting too much gain now? I tried using a 4 way splitter to maybe reduce the gain but I was still only getting the six VHF channels.


----------



## AntAltMike

Most likely, you're getting done in by a strong, local FM radio station.


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> I am a little over 30 miles away from the main towers according to tvfool.



That's why you need a signal level meter. Used analog display models can be had for around $50 and better digital display models for under $200 off e-bay.

Small price to pay since most here have already invested thousands in equipment already.









I've yet to find a preamp that can take even moderate signal levels without being overloaded.


If it is FM, that can be solved very easily with a band filter which the amp/preamp _*should*_ already have built in.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *aceinet* /forum/post/14489358
> 
> 
> Previously without the preamp installed I was able to get most of my channels with only the NBC channel being a problem from time to time.



Is NBC on a VHF channel in your city? Your antenna is UHF only.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *aceinet* /forum/post/14489358
> 
> 
> I purchased a Channel Master CM 0068DSB preamp that is rated at 23db gain for UHF and 16db gain for VHF. After installing it on the mast near my Channel Master CM4221 antenna my signal strength is practically gone. With the preamp plugged in I'm getting just six VHF channels. When I unplug the preamp my channel count goes up to 10 (6 VHF and 4 UHF digital) channels. Previously without the preamp installed I was able to get most of my channels with only the NBC channel being a problem from time to time. I am a little over 30 miles away from the main towers according to tvfool. Am I getting too much gain now? I tried using a 4 way splitter to maybe reduce the gain but I was still only getting the six VHF channels.



First, you need to provide your location, preferably to nearby cross streets or post tvfool.com results.

To avoid overload desensitization, High gain Preamps are best suited for rural locations....


And details on how you share the downlead with your (old MPEG2?) DirecTV system,

including specifics on how DC voltage is supplied to the Preamp (e.g. DC PASSTHRU diplexers?).

[New MPEG4 D* systems overlap the TV band...]


----------



## aceinet

No DirecTV tuner or diplexers for this antenna. This is a direct cable run to the TV and HTPC with two tuners installed. Zip Code is 78254. As I mentioned earlier before using the preamp I was able to get all of the major channels (ABC, CBS and FOX) with only NBC giving me problems with dropouts. Power is provided by the Preamp power supply plugged in behind the TV in a power outlet. I will check the FM trap settings inside the preamp tonight. The NBC channel is UHF but I could have confused some of the other analog UHF channels as VHF channels during the scan results







. I hoped this was the last tweak I needed to do to correct the NBC problems with the antenna. Now I'm back to more tweaks I guess.


----------



## holl_ands

That zipcode (probably your nearby Post Office) is only 10 miles away from

high power UHF stations (Analog KMYS and KMYS-DT). Your location may be even closer....


Received VHF signal strengths are also quite high, which could desensitize Preamp

due to intermods on top of weak stations (overload).


You should be using high overload W-G HDP-259 VHF/UHF Preamp...or none....

to prevent desensitization due to intermod products.


NBC is shown as being only slightly weaker than other networks and I

don't see any obvious co-channel or adjacent channel problems.

[Presuming they're actually operating at full power level reported to FCC.]

Since it is on CH58, there can be higher cable and splitter loss,

which may only be partially offset by higher CM-4221 gain on that channel.

Should be receivable without Preamp....maybe direction needs to be tweaked???


You should punch your actual location into both www.tvfool.com and www.fmfool.com 

There are SIX full power FM stations within 2 miles of that zipcode location---OUCH!!!!

You may need a separate FM Band Filter in addition to the FM Trap in Preamp...


PS: The FCC's TVQ database does NOT include new CH52+ band users,

such as MediaFlo, which can also desensitize Preamps...


Post-Feb2009, ABC & PBS will move to hi-VHF freqs, plus more distant CW on lo-VHF CH5.

CM-4221 may or may not have enough (negative) VHF gain for ABC & PBS

and you'll probably need a new VHF antenna to pick up CH5.


If you are contemplating a new, higher gain antenna, the CM-4228 has

moderate gain for hi-VHF band and may or may not be enough for CH5.


----------



## user4815162342

I apologize if you guys are tired of questions like this.


I've currently got a 40' tower, a rotator, amplifier, and the Philips MANT901 antenna I got at Menards for $70.


I've attached the TVFool data for my house, one for "all" current signals and one for "digital only" after the switchover.


Although I get adequate reception on most channels in good weather (30-40% signal strength), I think it could be better. In bad weather, there are a few channels which I just can't get in.


The antenna is in bad shape, several of the rods are bent or have fallen off, so I believe replacing it is where to start. This is partly due to having been sitting in the garage attic for three years before we moved it to the tower two years ago, partly due to mangling caused by that move, and partly due to the windy hill we live on.


My question is, if I replace the adequate antenna with a new one of the same model, will it definitely work better than the one with the missing/bent rods? Or should I go with something else?


I hope you can help.


----------



## Splicer010

Of course a new antenna would work better than one that is severly damaged...Use a pre-amp at the antenna and boost your signal significantly...


----------



## holl_ands

Since rain has only indirect effect on TV propagation (can change refractive index),

I would suspect moisture getting into balun and/or cable downlead. Replace outdoor part of coax.


Very high loss is also typical of wet twin-lead (300-ohm) cable...replace with coax.


----------



## Digital Rules

You should be able to get quite a few stations reliably, and all the networks with a Channel Master 4228 antenna. You will have 2 VHF stations after the transition; but they are duplicate PBS, and FOX stations. The 4228 may or may not be able to bring those 2 channels in. You should have no problem improving the 30-40% readings you are getting now with the signal levels available at your location.


----------



## user4815162342

Thanks for all of the suggestions and advice. Both the cm4228 and the Winegard's look good, but I need that PBS station (the digital content isn't duplicated, and I have little children), so if I'm going to switch I think I'd prefer the Winegard.


I don't really know what the antenna was like before it was damaged. The damage occurred when it was sittting up there rusting in the garage attic, and in trying to get it back out (We had to get it back out of the rafters and through a tight scuttlehole). It actually got better reception after the damage, since the damage coincided with us moving it onto the tower from the garage attic.










Is there any way to test the cable to see if it's damaged?


----------



## aceinet

holl_ands,


Thanks for the info. I will take the preamp off and see what I can get again. Wasn't aware of the FM stations that close to my area.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is my latest gizmo for the toolbox. Anybody know anything about this item?


----------



## bozey45

looks like a converter to convert smaller DC volatge operated divices to where they can be run by your car battery. Just match the devices operating voltage with the switch and fit the appropriate plug into the device whatever it may be. I could be wrong but thats what it looks like it is.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I dont know where my post went recommending the Classic Single Bowtie for UHF and the FM Dipole for VHF to a fellow wanting a compact transportable TV antenna solution.


But I just acquired this.....Ill be testing it out.


----------



## Digital Rules

Does anyone have any thoughts on the quality of the CM 9521 rotor? I have been using one for 5 months with only a 91-XG, Winegard 7210 (Only 1 at a time) and a 5 foot mast. It has failed 2-3 times; but unplugging the unit has resolved the problem in the past. It is now completely dead. I have checked the wiring a few times; and found nothing wrong.


I have a 2nd hand "_Centronics_" I picked up off of Craigs list that I was thinking about using. Never heard of that brand name; so I'm hesitant to put it up and have it die mid-winter.


I wouldn't think that a heavier duty unit would be necessary for such a small load.


Any Thoughts???????

_*UPDATE*_*---* *I replaced the ultra thin CM rotor wire with much better quality RS rotor wire. PROBLEM SOLVED!!*


Thx, Glen


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Here is my latest gizmo for the toolbox. Anybody know anything about this item?



Yes, I got one exactly like it somewhere, except it has a Radio Shack logo on it. Its a universal DC cigarette lighter adapter. You can power and or charge most battery operated electronics from your cars cigarette lighter with it. Just match up the voltage and plug needed.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

There seems to be an inline fuse holder or some such.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> "Centronics"



If its the same company, Centronics was a very popular computer cable manufacturer in the late 1980's. It should be fairly decent quality but it may be on the old side, so you may want to take it apart and check it out. Ive rebuilt/refurbished my old Alliance rotor many times, heh.


----------



## holl_ands

RS 15-1607 seems to be simple rabbit ears with a Preamp:
http://www.radioshack.com/search/man...BackToAll=true 

Must be obsolute...not even an English manual...hope it was discounted...

A UHF loop would have much higher gain....

And modern Preamps have much lower Noise Figures....


If you are considering antennas that plug into an AC outlet,

R-S also made a WHOLE HOUSE ANTENNA:
http://support.radioshack.com/suppor...oc33/33067.htm 

[Power line noise probably kills reception...but who knows....]


And you might even find an alternative use for all those beer cans:
http://diyfreetv.blogspot.com/2008/0...-beer-can.html


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *user4815162342* /forum/post/14496633
> 
> 
> Thanks for all of the suggestions and advice. Both the cm4228 and the Winegard's look good, but I need that PBS station (the digital content isn't duplicated, and I have little children), so if I'm going to switch I think I'd prefer the Winegard.
> 
> 
> I don't really know what the antenna was like before it was damaged. The damage occurred when it was sittting up there rusting in the garage attic, and in trying to get it back out (We had to get it back out of the rafters and through a tight scuttlehole). It actually got better reception after the damage, since the damage coincided with us moving it onto the tower from the garage attic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any way to test the cable to see if it's damaged?



Spray it with a garden hoze and see if the signal degrades????


Run a temporary coax bypass cable from antenna to TV...


----------



## AntAltMike

I buy a lot from Centronics. They are a distributor of television reception hardware. They don't make anything: they just stamp their name on a lot of stuff, mostly low end quality-wise.They have antennas that are copies of Winegard designs for a few dollars less, but they won't sell to individuals. You have to establish yourself as a reseller to be able to buy from them.


The only junk item they ever sold me was a couple of rotors with controllers for I think $39,95 each. The rotor controller knob in both would drag and throw the orientation off.


----------



## baud

n4yqt


The picture of the HD-7697 posted is not correct but one of the smaller versions.


I have two HD-7697 antennas and have pictures if anyone is interested.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Yes, the other suggestion was the Unamped Silver Sensor, which can be broken down into 3 pieces for transport and reassembled onsight.


The RCA ANT110 basic unamped Rabbit Ears & Loop would be good too, and simpler than the Bowtie + FM Dipole combo.


All 3 are good suggestions for a portable TV Antenna.


As well as th


----------



## baud

n4yqt


Sorry, i didn't mean to come across the way you took that.


Most every web site that i looked at when got mine didn't show the actual product.


In front of the vee it has two sets of the 53" instead of one and five sets not three behind the mast.


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> The rotor controller knob in both would drag and throw the orientation off.



Had that happen to a couple of older CM ones.


That is a "DC-DC converter". Better ones are like these;
http://store.sundancesolar.com/undcadpoco.html 

http://www.powerstream.com/ 

(search for the "PST-DC292")


----------



## baud

Yes, i just wish i had tried it first not fifth.


----------



## vurbano

My channel guide must be wrong. The skins on ABC and CBS tonight??


Nope its right and both in Glorious 4:3 SD.










But yet NFLHD has the Redskins broadcast network presentation in HD on Sunday.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

More pics of the Radio Shack 15-1607 on the Indoor Antenna thread.



What do you guys think about these antennas?

Antennas Direct V15 


Includes all weather transformer

10.8 dB gain

Element width: 95"

Boom length: 43"

Weight: 6.5 lbs.










Antennas Direct V10 


Range: Up to 25 miles

Includes all weather transformer

7.8 dB gain

Element width: 69"

Boom length: 32"

Weight: 4.5 lbs.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14510183
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you guys think about these antennas?
> 
> 
> Antennas Direct V15
> 
> 
> Antennas Direct V10



EV,


Never tried either of those. But for this class of small combo antennas, I would be hard pressed to believe anything could outperform the Winegard HD7210P (45.00) when _"maximum selectivity"_ is most important.


1.Selectivity- I would have never imagined that this antenna would be capable of reliably picking up a 23kw channel 11 @ 65 miles out with 2 full power VHF-HI analogs staring right down it's throat (3 miles).


2.Sensitivity- Very respectable UHF for it's size. When compared to my 91-XG, it's definitely not as good; but it picks up all the same weak stations; but not as reliably. It performs better on UHF than the HD7082P that is now folded up in my shed.


It is a "_very_" directional antenna; perfect for close in areas where extreme multipath is most likely to occur.


Glen


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks, Im planning on getting a Winegard 7210p Ghost Killer to add to my arsenal.


I think Ill pass on those antennas Direct models....Channel Master and Winegard are superior quality wise in general arent they?


Here is the Winegard 7000.










http://www.winegard.com/offair/antennas/pr7000.htm 




Here is the Channel Master 2001.













Does anybody have any experience with any of these antennas?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Anybody know where I can pick up a Winegard YA-6713?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Does anybody have any experience with any of these antennas?



I think I have that Winegard pr7000 in my collection. I need a better picture, but it looks very very similiar. Its a good local antenna.


----------



## aceinet

So I removed the preamp and still had problems getting a signal, now on all the major networks. I replaced the existing cable with a RG6 quad shielded cable I had left over and the scan results on my TV put out more channels than I've ever seen before. Getting all green bars on the HTPC as well in MCE2005 digital tv setup as well. But when I cut the cable to an acceptable length (probably six feet) the signal strength did decrease some in the MCE2005 setup. Yet I was still getting all of the channels. Then when I used the cable screw ties to mount the cable my signal strength is virtually gone again. I lost NBC and CBS.


Would using the cable ties cause an extra pinch to the cable that can impact the signal?


----------



## ctdish

The ties should do nothing. Most likely you have a bad connection someplace.

John


----------



## jacksim

Can anyone tell me if any of today's rotators can completely sync with a tv's tuner? -- put another way, when selecting a tv's channel pre-set, can a controller be made see that channel input and spin the rotator to match the channel, or is it still two separate operations: tv - controller?


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jacksim* /forum/post/14523108
> 
> 
> Can anyone tell me if any of today's rotators can completely sync with a tv's tuner? -- put another way, when selecting a tv's channel pre-set, can a controller be made see that channel input and spin the rotator to match the channel, or is it still two separate operations: tv - controller?



FWIW, the CM7000 converter box, & the CM9521 rotor use the same remote codes. If you have the 9521 programmed with the appropriate channel #, it will rotate the antenna everytime you punch the channel # into the converters remote. It won't work with the channel up/down buttons correctly though. You have to punch in the actual channel # for it to work.


----------



## 300ohm

I guess not quite, but similiar.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Nice antenna, thanks for sharing the pic!


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14513311
> 
> 
> Anybody know where I can pick up a Winegard YA-6713?



W-G's 6-element VHF Yagi has been discontinued.

[Total of 5-elements plus a VSWR matching "stub" next to driven element.]


Antennacraft Y5-7-13 5-element VHF Yagi is equivalent:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=Y5-7-13 

[Since it uses a folded dipole, it does not need the matching stub found on W-G's.]


===========================

Alternatively, you can use the longer, 10-element W-G YA-1713:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=YA1713 
http://www.summitsource.com/winegard...le-p-4589.html 


Or the AntennaCraft (9?) 10-element Y10-7-13 VHF Yagi:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...om=Large#xview 
http://www.starkelectronic.com/acantena.htm


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks hollands, you are the best.


----------



## jacksim




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/14523252
> 
> 
> FWIW, the CM7000 converter box, & the CM9521 rotor use the same remote codes. If you have the 9521 programmed with the appropriate channel #, it will rotate the antenna everytime you punch the channel # into the converters remote. It won't work with the channel up/down buttons correctly though. You have to punch in the actual channel # for it to work.




As there is already an ATSC tuner in this Pioneer tv, I suppose programming a Harmony universal rc might accomplish most of the same objectives as you suggest -- I donno as we don't have one yet. Otherwise, it seems that surfing channels will have to be more deliberate and require separate inputs by the user (?)


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *aceinet* /forum/post/14520682
> 
> 
> Would using the cable ties cause an extra pinch to the cable that can impact the signal?



If they aren't the right kind for your cable, yes. You don't want to crush coax.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Nice antenna, thanks for sharing the pic!



I also took detailed pics and measurements of it, in case I wanted to model it later.


----------



## WeThePeople




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/14523252
> 
> 
> FWIW, the CM7000 converter box, & the CM9521 rotor use the same remote codes. If you have the 9521 programmed with the appropriate channel #, it will rotate the antenna everytime you punch the channel # into the converters remote. It won't work with the channel up/down buttons correctly though. You have to punch in the actual channel # for it to work.




I'm slightly curious about that. The rotor accepts two digit channel numbers, or three digit "Degree" headings I though.


How would it know the difference between 32.1 and 321-Degrees?


I ask assuming you own both to answer this...


----------



## videobruce

I own both, but never nmade a connection with a pre-programmed channel position on the rotor and a channel change with the CM7000.

I would assume using the decimal point would confuse the rotor since it isn't looking for that.

I don't remember if you can enter a decimal point in for the 7000.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WeThePeople* /forum/post/14534079
> 
> 
> I'm slightly curious about that. The rotor accepts two digit channel numbers, or three digit "Degree" headings I though.
> 
> 
> How would it know the difference between 32.1 and 321-Degrees?
> 
> 
> I ask assuming you own both to answer this...



This only works with 1 or 2 digit inputs. If you put in 3 digits; the rotor will go to that compass position. The 9521 has to be pre-programmed for this to work.


BTW; since I replaced the ultra-thin rotor wire CM wire with higher quality RS wire; the antenna is staying sychronized much better. It eventually completely quit working because of the CM wire.


----------



## WeThePeople

I was aware the 9521 has to be pre-programmed for that to work, it was the three digit thing that had me.


But then the CM-7000 will go to the xx.1 channel by default if you input just two digits and wait for it to time-out. All xx.? channels are same direction for any given channel anyway.


So it seems all that one would need to change was the 9521 accepting channel up/down commands so xx.2, xx.3, Etc. could be accessed without the rotor wandering around. Right?



Edit:

Or did they see this comming and only the numeric keys from the CM-7000 work on the rotor, and not the CH Up/Dn ones perhaps?


----------



## robandjeanne

Has anyone tried to rebradcast the DTV signal from a CECB so that TVs in their home can receive DTV on ch 3 or 4? For example I have an antenna in my attic feeding my downstairs TV, but upstairs their is no cable feed to the bathroom or bedrooms. Since I don't watch TV upstairs much, I think I would be satisfied if I could rebroadcast the signal from one of my TV converter boxes so that any upstairs TV could receive DTV programming on ch 3 or 4. Would I need a linear amp to be able to get the CECB RF output signal strong enough to rebroadcast? I realize that all upstairs TVs would have to watch the same program that the rebroadcasted CECB is tuned to, but this may not be a big issue.


----------



## robandjeanne

How long the cable lasts when buried in soil depends on how good the cable insulation is and probably how acid the soil is. You can buy direct burial cable from Belden and other big suppliers that will last for decades when buried. It has to say direct burial. Pulling cable through conduits usually does not guarantee a long life unless it is direct burial cable because usually the conduits fill up with water so the cable is immersed in water most of the year. As I recall the insulation was some type of polyethylene and it was very stiff and hard to strip.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mudtoe* /forum/post/14470447
> 
> 
> I read the information on hdtvprimer and it was very interesting, especially the part about certain antennas having negative gain for some of the VHF channels. I think what I'm going to do is get a 4228 with a pre-amp and try it in the attic first. If that doesn't work, then I'll have to look into mounting it outside. BTW thanks for all the help and pointers. You certainly saved me a lot of leg work, and potentially having to return some stuff that wouldn't have worked.



HDTVPrimer updated the 4228 page. Apparently, a new version is coming:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html 



> Quote:
> Late news: Channel Master is introducing a new version of the 4228. It should be available late in 2008. It looks lighter than the present version. It has no discontinuity in the screen, eliminating the wind VHF problem. It has no vertical wires in the screen, which probably eliminates the dips in the VHF gain. It will officially be a VHF/UHF antenna, specified for channels 7-69.


----------



## WeThePeople

wire through garden hose, been done...works fine.


Use a vacum to pull kite string through, then pull the wire back.


I use that crappy irrigation tubing at $20 per 100' myself...buries easy with a spade blade and a properly fashioned stick. High-tech isn't always the best answer. Does the (Proverbial) shed need better???



Anyway, I ran a piece of old RG-213 (Like RG-8U, NOT 75-ohm for sure) up through the center of a house once. left a three foot section bare center conducter on each level with a slightly spaced ground tracer from start to stop of that break keeping the shield active the rest of the way.


Works amazingly well. Won't work with smaller coax, you need a junk piece of that big-ole CB-Band wire or equivelant. The emission doesn't even make it to a portable TV in the driveway so I don't belive it's an issue about disurbing ones neighbor. Rabbit ears were what did the receiving work of course on the house TV's on each level... CH-3 box was in the celler, so three levels were fed. But then again, there was no local Ch-3.


RonandLeanne,

one normal 75-Ohm TV cable to a central location feeding a 75-to-300-Ohm adapter balun would feed a pair of rabbit ears just fine if that fits your bill. Assuming that 2/3 or 3/4 (box dependant) gives you a choice of an unused channel in your area. Your basicly back-feeding the balun from the 75 to the 300 changing it from a single ended signal to a differential one for the rabit ears. Just connect the balun and rabbit ears flat leads accordingly.


Forgive me if the stone age techniques here have banjo's playing in yer head (lol)...


----------



## raj2001

If you want good rotor wire, try a ham radio store like the wireman or Texas towers. 


Most of these places take mostly phone orders mind you. Their online ordering systems suck.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *WeThePeople* /forum/post/14534845
> 
> 
> So it seems all that one would need to change was the 9521 accepting channel up/down commands so xx.2, xx.3, Etc. could be accessed without the rotor wandering around. Right?
> 
> 
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Or did they see this comming and only the numeric keys from the CM-7000 work on the rotor, and not the CH Up/Dn ones perhaps?



I just hooked my CM-7000 back up.(Unfortunately, the Zenith works better here) The CM-9521 remote control operates both units; but the CM-7000 remote only controls the convertor box.(Can anybody explain that?????)) The up & down keys on the 9521 change the channels also. Hope this helps.


Glen


----------



## denube




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/14536031
> 
> 
> HDTVPrimer updated the 4228 page. Apparently, a new version is coming:
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html



New version of chinese junk.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Antennas Direct (Terrestrial Digital) ClearStream2 mini review and comparison with DB2 on Indoor Antenna Round Up thread.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *robandjeanne* /forum/post/14535499
> 
> 
> Has anyone tried to rebradcast the DTV signal from a CECB so that TVs in their home can receive DTV on ch 3 or 4? For example I have an antenna in my attic feeding my downstairs TV, but upstairs their is no cable feed to the bathroom or bedrooms. Since I don't watch TV upstairs much, I think I would be satisfied if I could rebroadcast the signal from one of my TV converter boxes so that any upstairs TV could receive DTV programming on ch 3 or 4. Would I need a linear amp to be able to get the CECB RF output signal strong enough to rebroadcast? I realize that all upstairs TVs would have to watch the same program that the rebroadcasted CECB is tuned to, but this may not be a big issue.



You would need quite a bit of gain to get this to work....


Which would ALSO retransmit the Converter Box's internally generated RF Noise

throughout your neighborhood. Which could degrade reception on other than CH3/4.


PS: If it's more than a few milliwatts, you could also be in violation of Federal Law.


PPS: Cable companies regularly patrol neighborhoods looking for leakage from

their cables...and could inadvertently find YOU.


----------



## WeThePeople

Most boxes transmit enough to make it twenty, thirty feet tops with rabit ears through a balun to a TV with rabit ears also. I got nothing but snow on a good portable battery TV in the driveway as example, and perfectly watchable picture on the units about fifteen feet from that center feed. So that is safe.


The channel 2/3 or 3/4 outputs of equipment are very low power. On some you can get away with one splitter (3.5-Db loss) before it degrades, on some you won't notice unless you put a three-way or larger splitter. But much over about a 5-Db loss and your already loosing it.


But you do bring up a good point, you wouldn't want to amplify them and rebroadcast that.



Digital Rules,

That is very helpful, I am considering that rotor control head because of my CM-7000's here. I'll call them and see what I can find out.


----------



## Amber O'Doul

Info and Questions on my situation:

TVFool reports that all the stations I am interested in are in exactly the same location, 20 miles away, and signal strengths at my location range from -48 to -70 dB. All UHF, line of sight (I am on a hill and the transmitter is on a mountain)


I have two TV's: One upstairs and one in a half-basement. A MANT510 work barely adequately on some stations in the in the basement, and was actually fairly decent when located upstairs, but with occasional digital artifacts and drop-outs. If I ran the MANT510 signal into the pre-wired cable-TV lines from upstairs to downstairs, the downstairs TV would get better, but still not perfect. The ridiclous amount of amplified gain of the MANT510 would only help when upped to maybe 10 dB max.


So I figure I needed just a little stronger antenna signal, with minimal gain and low noise.


So I bought a radio Shack 15-2160 and mounted it in my attic (thin layer asphalt shingles)

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=family 


The Performance of this antenna was a slight improvement over the MANT510 on the upstairs TV, but was worthless when it had been split off to go downstairs also (through the cabnle TV line. All other branches of the cable tv line were disconnected)


So, I got a CM 7777 and mounted it close to the antenna. This actually degraded the picture upstairs, evidenced by more noise and digital drop-outs, and didn't help the downstairs much.


Question: What signal level is considered "too high" ? I know that -100 dB is considered the lowest level for reasonable reception, but I don't know where "too much" is. Imagine my signal strength is -49 dB, I get another +12 dBd from the antenna, and +26 dB from the preamp, with a -4 dB loss at the splitter, giving me about -15 dB at the upstairs TV.


Thinking I might be overloading the upstairs TV, I moved the CM7777 to a position AFTER the splitter, so the Antenna signal is unamplified through the splitter, and only the leg going to the downstairs gets the amplification.


THIS SEEMS TO BE WORKING WELL. I imagine there might be only 40-75 feet of coax between upstairs and downstairs. So I speculate that I was overloading the upstairs TV, and the +26 dB of the amp is not overloading the downstairs because of the losses of 40-75 feet of coax.


Is this making sense ? I am surprised that the reception is so sensitive to signal level such that +26 dB overloads the upstairs but is necessary for the downstairs. It makes me think there s only a range of acceptable signals that is about the same as the loss in the coax which mught be only 8 to 12 dB (a rough estimate).


Is this true ?


Thanks for any insights.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Amber O'Doul* /forum/post/14543028
> 
> 
> So, I got a CM 7777 and mounted it close to the antenna. This actually degraded the picture upstairs, evidenced by more noise and digital drop-outs, and didn't help the downstairs much.
> 
> 
> Question: What signal level is considered "too high" ?



Amber O'Doul,


You are right at the limit of what the _"*input*"_ of the CM7777 can accept without overloading(around -50 to -60db). Moving the pre-amp furthur down the line lowered the input signal enough to alleviate the overload condition.


The CM 7777 is designed for fringe/deep fringe areas. I like the Winegard HDP-269 in higher signal strength areas; but unfortunately; it lacks an FM trap.


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/14543298
> 
> 
> You are right at the limit of what the _"*input*"_ of the CM7777 can accept without overloading(around -50 to -60db). Moving the pre-amp furthur down the line lowered the input signal enough to alleviate the overload condition.
> 
> 
> The CM 7777 is designed for fringe/deep fringe areas. I like the Winegard HDP-269 in higher signal strength areas; but unfortunately; it lacks an FM trap.



What stinks about my situation is that I have ONE station that's at about -39 dBm which makes all but an HDP-269 unusable as the one close and strong signal overloads anything else. But everything else is around -102 to -108 and could benefit from the added gain of a 7777 (especially if I decided to try rotating the antenna and looking to other markets). Fortunately these weaker signals are stable and relatively strong even with an HDP-269.


----------



## Digital Rules

Ziggy,


How much difference did the HDP-269 make with your set-up? Did you gain any stations; or just increase the reliability of what you were already getting?


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Amber O'Doul* /forum/post/14543028
> 
> 
> Info and Questions on my situation:
> 
> TVFool reports that all the stations I am interested in are in exactly the same location, 20 miles away, and signal strengths at my location range from -48 to -70 dB. All UHF, line of sight (I am on a hill and the transmitter is on a mountain)



If you've got line of sight to nearby transmitters, chances are the CM7777 is overloading.


With that kind of signal strength, you should be able to split off the U75R to both TVs with no amplification and get all the channels. Since putting the CM7777 on the downstairs leg seems to help, I'm thinking maybe the run of coax you are using to get from the attic to downstairs is bad.


Another possibility is that having the antenna in your attic is causing issues, not just attenuation but multipath due to internal reflections. You can try moving the antenna around inside the attic, but outside would be better.


----------



## Amber O'Doul




> Quote:
> With that kind of signal strength, you should be able to split off the U75R to both TVs with no amplification and get all the channels. Since putting the CM7777 on the downstairs leg seems to help, I'm thinking maybe the run of coax you are using to get from the attic to downstairs is bad.



That has crossed my mind also. But it is difficult to rerun cables through a finished house. Standard cable-tv cable is similar to RG-59 or RG-6 isn't it ? I could find no markings on the cable.


> Quote:
> Another possibility is that having the antenna in your attic is causing issues, not just attenuation but multipath due to internal reflections. You can try moving the antenna around inside the attic, but outside would be better.



That is my backup plan.

As I mentioned, things seem to be working well right now, but If I have any more drop outs or issues associated with rain or snow on the roof, I will just mount something on top of the roof. Once I have committed to running cables from outside, then I can just run a cable down to the basement from the oustide also.


Thanks.


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/14543519
> 
> 
> Ziggy,
> 
> 
> How much difference did the HDP-269 make with your set-up? Did you gain any stations; or just increase the reliability of what you were already getting?



I only added the preamp because I plan to split the signal three ways soon, and some of the signals were weakened enough by the splitter without a preamp that they seemed like they'd drop out frequently.


With no splitter inline and only feeding to one tuner, I really don't need any preamp.


----------



## nwiser




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/14540211
> 
> 
> PPS: Cable companies regularly patrol neighborhoods looking for leakage from
> 
> their cables...and could inadvertently find YOU.



What kind of leakage? Are you talking about cable tv theft...or are you saying that the Cable tv signal actually broadcasts some over the air if theres a "leak"? Or neither?


----------



## milt9




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nwiser* /forum/post/14544165
> 
> 
> What kind of leakage? Are you talking about cable tv theft...or are you saying that the Cable tv signal actually broadcasts some over the air if theres a "leak"? Or neither?



they are looking for leakage that might interfere with other services such as aircraft communications. yes they actually broadcast some over the air.

milt9


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im thinking about doing an AM/FM Shortwave, Scanner antenna thread.


----------



## nwiser




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *milt9* /forum/post/14544393
> 
> 
> they are looking for leakage that might interfere with other services such as aircraft communications. yes they actually broadcast some over the air.
> 
> milt9



thats very interesting. is it just single channels that are broadcasted or their entire bandwith?


another question would be, if their signal can broadcast OTA, why havent they tried doing that instead of running miles and miles of cable everywhere?


Theres talk on the DTV CECB forums here about some boxes possibly having hidden smartcard/chip features for future OTA pay services, which is also very interesting. That sure would be good for the consumer and competition, as most markets with cable usually only have one provider due to cable having to be run. Verizon seems to be circumnavigating this issue, but not many others.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Name that antenna!


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14547190
> 
> 
> Name that antenna!


*An Antennacraft D 9000 with the corner reflector removed?????????????*


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nwiser* /forum/post/14546905
> 
> 
> thats very interesting. is it just single channels that are broadcasted or their entire bandwith?
> 
> 
> another question would be, if their signal can broadcast OTA, why havent they tried doing that instead of running miles and miles of cable everywhere?
> 
> 
> Theres talk on the DTV CECB forums here about some boxes possibly having hidden smartcard/chip features for future OTA pay services, which is also very interesting. That sure would be good for the consumer and competition, as most markets with cable usually only have one provider due to cable having to be run. Verizon seems to be circumnavigating this issue, but not many others.



The leakage is normally seen on VHF channels only as they are shared by both cable and OTA.I've had problems in the past and the cable co came and fixed the problem.If you ever have the problem,ask to speak to a tech.The CSR's won't have a clue what you're talking about.


Cable co's rebroadcasting OTA? You must be kidding.Controlled pipeline=revenue.


----------



## nwiser




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14547190
> 
> 
> Name that antenna!



this is just a guess, but I'm thinking its a radio shack model, similar to the one I got for free, maybe not as big though. Like mine, it has the blue plastic pieces to hold the elements in place as well as the little metal bowtie at the heart of the UHF section. Only difference is this one doesnt have the reflectors and the VHF elements on it are straight out, whereas mine are at an angle.


(I'm honestly not sure the one I got for free is a RS model, but the photos on their web page for it looked so similar...blue plastic and metal bowtie...so I'm just assuming.)


----------



## Digital Rules

Nwiser,


Good observation. Antennacraft manufactures antennas for RS. Those blue insulators and UHF elements are a dead giveaway.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is a classic....looks like a double folded dipole with matching reflectors.


Rockwell, Norman New Television Antenna 1949 The Saturday Evening Post, November 5, 1949 (cover) Oil on canvas 46 1/8 x 43 3/8 in. Los Angeles County Museum of Art


----------



## MikeBiker




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14547190
> 
> 
> Name that antenna!



I'd name that antenna George.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Cable co's rebroadcasting OTA? You must be kidding.Controlled pipeline=revenue.



Of course that. But also, one of cables biggest selling points was snow free reception. Broadcasting over the air would introduce noise from various sources.


----------



## 300ohm

I would say its made by Channel Master. Note the distintive uhf bowtie element, only CM has that. But it looks like the corner reflector was removed or never put on.


> Quote:
> Those blue insulators and UHF elements are a dead giveaway.



Channel Master also used to use blue insulators.




> Quote:
> Here is a classic....looks like a double folded dipole with matching reflectors.



In the city of Dover, Del there is a house that still has one of those on the roof, heh. And its still in good shape, not bent or anything.


----------



## nwiser




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14549775
> 
> 
> Of course that. But also, one of cables biggest selling points was snow free reception. Broadcasting over the air would introduce noise from various sources.



ehhh...I had cable for a few years and still had noise from various sources...they blamed it on my TV...I cancelled my cable, and had the last laugh.


----------



## nwiser




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14548185
> 
> 
> Here is a classic....looks like a double folded dipole with matching reflectors.
> 
> 
> Rockwell, Norman New Television Antenna 1949 The Saturday Evening Post, November 5, 1949 (cover) Oil on canvas 46 1/8 x 43 3/8 in. Los Angeles County Museum of Art



cool...I've actually seen a house in my neighborhood that has an antenna similar to that. I always thought it was for receiving Radio signals more than tv though.


----------



## milt9

when i wrote they were broadcasting over the air i meant the leakage was going over the air. where some cable companies have Fm radio on the cable it can also leak.

milt9


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nwiser* /forum/post/14544165
> 
> 
> What kind of leakage? Are you talking about cable tv theft...or are you saying that the Cable tv signal actually broadcasts some over the air if theres a "leak"? Or neither?



ALL of the above.

If your neighbor is illegally "jacking"' into your cable signal, they might

simply strip the cable and wrap a wire around the exposed wire...very leaky.


More importantly, cable systems must not leak and interfere with comms

to/from overflying aircraft (et.al.), including VOR navigation beacons,

nor any other communications band user. Degraded in-home connectors,

damaged outdoor cables, as well as illegal tampering can result in a problem.


Cable uses nearly ALL frequencies, from CH2 through 860 MHz (some 1 GHz)

for video/data, and BELOW CH2 for reverse link from cable boxes and modems.

Hence, that includes the FM band, military bands and many Ham radio bands.


----------



## nybbler

The big one looks like a Channel Master 3671 minus the corner reflector.


Anyone know what the short elements interspersed with the VHF elements are? Are they for FM radio?


----------



## philherz

Been reading for a couple hours and I'm lost.


I just bought an HDTV for my parents' 65th anniversary. (65!!!!!)


They have an inexpensive cable package at their apartment complex for only $9 per month.


Went thru the auto-scan with the QAM tuner....Maybe 25 total channels, but no HD.


I was thinking of also getting them a small indoor antenna so they can get some HD channels, but the TV only has one coax input.


Is there any way to use both their cable coax and antenna inputs?


Is their an indoor antenna that uses a component input?


I'm assuming it'd be a royal pain to keep switching input cables!!


Any suggestions would be appreciated!!


thnx


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Is there any way to use both their cable coax and antenna inputs?



Use an A-B switch box. Then you just have to push or slide the switch. Radio Shack also sells a remote control A-B switch box.


----------



## Splicer010

Out of 25 channels on QAM...there are NO HD channels!? I find that really hard to believe...What stations do you get???


----------



## philherz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/14556621
> 
> 
> Out of 25 channels on QAM...there are NO HD channels!? I find that really hard to believe...What stations do you get???



They're in an apartment complex in Western NY and for $9 they get local ABC, NBC, Fox, etc.... a couple C-Spans, religious, and shopping shows, a guide, etc....ALL show as SD.


Not sure if Time Warner is just sending SD or if I have to try some other auto-scan!!??


Any ideas? thnx


----------



## evofxdwg

Have researched low noise UHF preamps and found numerous successful uses of the Winegard AC-4990. But i cant find any for sale online (one exception - no posted price, specs, or pix). Not even at Winegard online store. And i cant even find specs.


Is it discontinued or made by a different mfr?

Approx price?

Where to buy?

Anybody have the specs?

Does it have a 300 or 75 ohm input?


Any suggestions for low noise UHF-only preamps with 300 Ohm input that is obtainable? (I know about the CM 0065 and 0264 VHF-UHF dual input models).


----------



## ctdish

According to http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archi...36336-p-9.html it is an "older model preamp from the 80's: 29db gain, 2.9db NF. 300 ohm input".

It has probably been replaced by new ones with 75 ohm input.

John


----------



## Splicer010

You have to scan for digital channels...Sure sounds like you have the analog or standard NTSC cable channels scanned which is most likely the case...Scan for CADTV if the set labels it that way...or DTV...or QAM...The NTSC and the ATSC/QAM tuners are seperate from each other and need to be scanned seperately...


----------



## philherz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/14560239
> 
> 
> You have to scan for digital channels...Sure sounds like you have the analog or standard NTSC cable channels scanned which is most likely the case...Scan for CADTV if the set labels it that way...or DTV...or QAM...The NTSC and the ATSC/QAM tuners are seperate from each other and need to be scanned seperately...



The owner's manual clearly says that auto-scan searches for both analog and digital channels.


Either the tuner isn't picking up the digital channels or they aren't there!


(I keep reading that the cable company is required to pass along the local channels in clear QAM as long as they offer them, so I'm wondering where the problem lies!!??)


I'll try an indoor antenna shortly to see if the tuner will pick up some digital channels OTA.


----------



## Splicer010

What TV make/model???


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Will this FM antenna work in the US?


----------



## 300ohm

Yes, its European.



> Quote:
> FM broadcast band
> 
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Jump to: navigation, search
> 
> In most of the world, the FM broadcast band, used for broadcasting FM radio stations, goes from 87.5 to 108.0 MHz. In Japan the FM broadcast band is 76-90 MHz, unlike any other country in the world. The old OIRT band in Eastern Europe was 65.8-74 MHz.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

So the polarization and all that jazz is the same?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is a Funke website with gain and f/b ratios of different styles of FM antenna.

http://www.funke.nl/subcategorie.php?id=38


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here are some Funke VHF Hi antennas...

http://www.funke.nl/subcategorie.php?type=sub&id=47


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Name that antenna!


----------



## Mloot

Here's another name-that-antenna pic. I was in San Antonio a few weeks ago and saw a mammoth antenna on top of an AT&T office building. It was several times larger than a normal combo tv antenna and I had never seen one quite like it. Maybe one of you guys might have a clue as to what type it is. The quality of the pics are not the best since they were taken at extreme zoom on a P&S camera.

http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?i...antennaev7.jpg 

http://img184.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ntenna2am5.jpg


----------



## philherz

The owner's manual clearly says that auto-scan searches for both analog and digital channels.


Either the tuner isn't picking up the digital channels or they aren't there!


(I keep reading that the cable company is required to pass along the local channels in clear QAM as long as they offer them, so I'm wondering where the problem lies!!??)


I'll try an indoor antenna shortly to see if the tuner will pick up some digital channels OTA.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/14560341
> 
> 
> What TV make/model???



It's a Vizio VW37L.


I've seen some earlier posts regarding clear QAM reception with this company's tuners, but I've also seen more recent posts that it should work fine!!


----------



## Splicer010

According to your manual...the TV scans for both digital (ATSC) and analog (NTSC) channels...HOWEVER...and this is the part you probably won't like...there is NO mention of this set having a QAM tuner...Therefore the 25 channels you are getting with the cable...are nothing more than the analog NTSC channels...


Now if you were using an antenna...then BOTH analog AND digital are scanned...So I am sorry to say that your set...while very capable of receiving HD broadcasts from an antenna...is incapable of HD broadcasts from a cable source...Sorry...


----------



## philherz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/14561451
> 
> 
> According to your manual...the TV scans for both digital (ATSC) and analog (NTSC) channels...HOWEVER...and this is the part you probably won't like...there is NO mention of this set having a QAM tuner...Therefore the 25 channels you are getting with the cable...are nothing more than the analog NTSC channels...
> 
> 
> Now if you were using an antenna...then BOTH analog AND digital are scanned...So I am sorry to say that your set...while very capable of receiving HD broadcasts from an antenna...is incapable of HD broadcasts from a cable source...Sorry...



That's not good!


Where the manual says: ".....ATSC/Clear QAM tuner, NTSC video

decoding via RF or Composite video....", isn't that a good sign??????


thnx


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *philherz* /forum/post/14561470
> 
> 
> That's not good!
> 
> 
> Where the manual says: ".....ATSC/Clear QAM tuner, NTSC video
> 
> decoding via RF or Composite video....", isn't that a good sign??????
> 
> 
> thnx



What page??? QAM isn't even in the index...


----------



## Splicer010

This is the manual I'm looking at:

http://www.vizio.com/assets/0/92/94/...a88a0ab08a.pdf


----------



## philherz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/14561484
> 
> 
> What page??? QAM isn't even in the index...



Page 68/71 in the manual I downloaded. (It's 5.1 the specifications page, under features)


----------



## Splicer010

So it does...I did not check the features section...


Well then it is one of 2 things...Either the QAM listing on the features page is a misprint...which is what I think it is since the acronym is not seen any other place in the manual...or the QAM is filtered out of the feed to the apartment...You need to either call Vizio and verify that there is indeed a QAM tuner...Though I really doubt it...Elimination of features is how a TV can be sold so inexpensively...OR...and I think this is the first thing to do...Call the cable co to get verification either way about their policy on QAM...unencrypted of course...


Sorry I haven't seemed to be much help to you...I still strongly question the sets ability to receive QAM though...based on your experience as well as the manual...


BTW...I als for the heck of it...looked up your model on eBay and their descriptions falled to use the acronym QAM as well but did say:


> Quote:
> This high definition TV features a tuner that can receive conventional analog channels (NTSC), as well as the new digital channels (ATSC), including over-the-air HDTV broadcasts, where available, and unscrambled digital cable channels.



but then states:



> Quote:
> Key Features & Benefits:
> 
> 
> Built-in ATSC digital/NTSC analog tuner
> 
> 
> Receives conventional analog broadcasts and digital broadcasts, including HDTV programs where available



so I can see where confusion comes from...But with the elimination of the acronym QAM...I really don't think there is one here...


Let us know what you find out...


----------



## ctdish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *philherz* /forum/post/14560302
> 
> 
> (I keep reading that the cable company is required to pass along the local channels in clear QAM as long as they offer them, so I'm wondering where the problem lies!!??)
> 
> 
> I'll try an indoor antenna shortly to see if the tuner will pick up some digital channels OTA.



The outdoor antenna should work if you have a good enough signal.

The Local HD channels may be on your cable system and not scrambled but because you are only subscribing to a few channals there may be a filter that removes them and the other analog channels.

John


----------



## Ratman

Page 10 of the manual:

"9. DTV/TV – Connect to an antenna or *digital cable (no Cable Box)* for Digital TV."


Page 14:

"2. Connect the coaxial (RF) connector from your antenna or *digital cable (out-of-the-wall, not from the Cable Box)* to the DTV/TV CABLE/ANTENNA connector."


Page 29:

"The channel availability through cable depends upon which channels your cable operator supplies in Clear QAM; consult your cable operator for more information."


Also refer to page 29 (auto scanning) you will see that the picture shows the scan for "cable" (top right) and denotes the number of analog and digital channels found.


That would denote a QAM tuner capability by my interpretation.


----------



## holl_ands

Pg 45, sec 3.4.2 picture of a *CABLE* scan shows finding both analog and *DIGITAL* channels.

Pg 68 Specifications lists QAM feature.


Hence it's pretty clear the Visio has QAM capability.


Note that you have to rescan for either ON-AIR or CABLE....

probably each time you switch from one to the other...


----------



## holl_ands

I would stay away from old, discountinued products...

some of them had self-oscillation problems.


Current (non-oscillating) W-G products are summarized here:
http://www.winegard.com/offair/preamps.htm 

Note that ALL are 75-ohm input, for use with an external 300/75-ohm Balun.....


But if you click on link to the printable chart you'll find:
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/Chart29.pdf 

Which lists several models with 300-ohm input (the 300/75-ohm Balun is INTERNAL).

They are about the same as a 75-ohm input Preamp which has an EXTERNAL Balun....


These are readily available from www.solidsignal.com , www.summitsource.com ,
www.starkelectronic.com and others.


PS: If you have "nearby" TV or FM stations, go for the lower gain models.

The W-G HDP-269 has the highest overload resistance....


----------



## philherz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/14561801
> 
> 
> So it does...I did not check the features section...
> 
> 
> Well then it is one of 2 things...Either the QAM listing on the features page is a misprint...which is what I think it is since the acronym is not seen any other place in the manual...or the QAM is filtered out of the feed to the apartment...You need to either call Vizio and verify that there is indeed a QAM tuner...Though I really doubt it...Elimination of features is how a TV can be sold so inexpensively...OR...and I think this is the first thing to do...Call the cable co to get verification either way about their policy on QAM...unencrypted of course...
> 
> 
> Sorry I haven't seemed to be much help to you...I still strongly question the sets ability to receive QAM though...based on your experience as well as the manual...
> 
> 
> BTW...I als for the heck of it...looked up your model on eBay and their descriptions falled to use the acronym QAM as well but did say:
> 
> 
> 
> but then states:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so I can see where confusion comes from...But with the elimination of the acronym QAM...I really don't think there is one here...
> 
> 
> Let us know what you find out...



I really do appreciate your efforts here...you certainly have tried your best to figure this out!!


1) I emailed Vizio yesterday asking about this problem...I'll be curious to see what they say.


2) I also will post an inquiry on the AVS forum for this model TV!


3) Depending what Vizio says, I'll also contact Time Warner.


Interestingly enough, I borrowed a Terk TV-5 and after a little fiddling, received all but one of the local digital stations that I was hoping for.


Since this antenna wasn't very highly regarded in EV's Indoor Antenna Round-Up forum, I'm hoping that I might be able to get a somewhat better performing indoor antenna (if necessary) and get all the channels they really want!!!


----------



## philherz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ratman* /forum/post/14562859
> 
> 
> Page 10 of the manual:
> 
> "9. DTV/TV - Connect to an antenna or *digital cable (no Cable Box)* for Digital TV."
> 
> 
> Page 14:
> 
> "2. Connect the coaxial (RF) connector from your antenna or *digital cable (out-of-the-wall, not from the Cable Box)* to the DTV/TV CABLE/ANTENNA connector."
> 
> 
> Page 29:
> 
> "The channel availability through cable depends upon which channels your cable operator supplies in Clear QAM; consult your cable operator for more information."
> 
> 
> Also refer to page 29 (auto scanning) you will see that the picture shows the scan for "cable" (top right) and denotes the number of analog and digital channels found.
> 
> 
> That would denote a QAM tuner capability by my interpretation.



Boy, you'd think that their manual is pretty definitive that it should get clear QAM on my parents' cable, *IF* they're actually there!!!!


----------



## philherz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/14562438
> 
> 
> The Local HD channels may be on your cable system and not scrambled but because you are only subscribing to a few channals there may be a filter that removes them and the other analog channels.
> 
> John



Is that legal???????


----------



## ctdish

I don't know but a nearby cable Co. did just that. The filter was pretty easy to unscrew in the service box at the cable entry to the house.

John


----------



## Ratman

Some apartment/condo complexes have an umbrella cable contract for all renters where the access "fee" is included in the monthly rent/lease and some channels may be limited.


If filters are installed by the cableco, it's legal. Removal (by the renter) is illegal.


You need to discuss your desires with the landlord and cableco to determine if there are any alternatives.


----------



## Splicer010

So page 14 #4 states you must select DTV...Have you tried that???


Also I don't see on 29 where it says "cable" top right...I do see "Channel Scan" top right and then analog found & digital found...maybe a different page??? I am looking at the top of page 29...at the blue box to the right of 'd' that only states:


> Quote:
> The screen will now change to show the progress of the search for Analog (NTSC) and Digital (ATSC) channels.



No 'QAM' mentioned at all...Basically I am just saying that this manual is damn confusing...Honestly I would hope that a QAM tuner exists in this set...But there is no clear cut definitive statement one way or the other...


Ratman may be correct and for the OP I hope he is...But I still feel...going solely by the manual...that whoever wrote it was/is confused because it just isn't worded correctly when "digital cable" is being referred to...which is what is leading to the confusion...Note that on pg 29 that it says:


> Quote:
> *The channel availability through cable depends upon which channels your cable operator supplies in Clear QAM*



To me this is what is confusing everyone...The NTSC (analog) tuner is most certainly cable ready but to know the channel availability depends on your cable operator. That is most likely...at least the way I am interpreting it...what is meant...On all the pictures of screen shots I do not see anything that would lead me to believe QAM is incorporated in the set...The ONLY reference I see is NTSC/ATSC or Analog/Digital which is the same thing...


Curious to hear what Vizio and the cable co have to say...


----------



## philherz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/14565295
> 
> 
> So page 14 #4 states you must select DTV...Have you tried that???



If you look at the Input List at the bottom of P.29, it doesn't even show DTV, just TV.


I've cycled through that input selection about 10 times today while over at my parents'.....I don't think DTV was ever an option.


----------



## Splicer010

But the very bottom of pg. 29 says:


a. Select the correct input connection RF (DTV/TV)


See...I don't think the manual is correct...Too many differences in words compared to actual options...


----------



## evofxdwg

Thanks for the inputs from everyone. I was looking for a low noise figure amp with 300 ohm input to get the total system noise figure down. 300 ohm eliminates need for an unknown-performance transformer before the amp. Im using a CM 4228 antenna to try for some Atlanta stations about 85 miles away. (I can reliably get WPCH-DT without the amp now, but others are intermittent or nonexistent)


Ive decided a tradeoff that should work is the CM 0264. It has a low advertised 2.2 dB noise figure in UHF. It is VHF-UHF but has separate inputs so i can terminate the VHF input or add a separate (VHF only) antenna pointing in another direction.


----------



## Ratman

All references with the term "digital cable" aren't confusing at all IMO. Searches on the web also state QAM capability for this model #.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *splicer010* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Also I don't see on 29 where it says "cable" top right...I do see "Channel Scan" top right and then analog found & digital found...maybe a different page???



My bad.... refer to page 45. Section 3.4.2 Auto-search


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *philherz* /forum/post/14564458
> 
> 
> Is that legal???????



Apparently. The FCC rules (which are not really law), are vary vague on the matter. The municipally owned cable system here where I live, provide no HD clear-QAM. In fact, they only provide 1 clear QAM channel, and that's the local ABC affiliates 24/7 weather sub-channel! The only way to get HD on cable here is to subscribe to their digital cable package w/HD, and pay an additional monthly fee for the HD cable box!


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *philherz* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> (I keep reading that the cable company is required to pass along the local channels in clear QAM as long as they offer them, so I'm wondering where the problem lies!!??)



The way I've read the FCC rules, they must carry one channel from each of the local stations in the basic tier. If that one is analog, there is no requirement to carry digital in the clear. If the one channel is digital and provides HD content, and is a part of the basic tier, then it must be provided in the clear.


However, this is where it gets vague (at least locally). My cable co. is now converting the digital signals from the locals to analog, but still no clear QAM. They still consider "basic cable" to be analog, and anything digital (including HD locals) to be premium content available only at an additional charge and requiring de-scrambling.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/14555152
> 
> 
> ...looks like a Channel Master 3671 minus the corner reflector.
> 
> 
> Anyone know what the short elements interspersed with the VHF elements are? Are they for FM radio?



Those short elements are for VHF-high band (7-13). The shorter of the long elements would be for FM, which is just above the channel 6 frequency range, but still way below channel 7.


----------



## philherz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/14566372
> 
> 
> Apparently. The FCC rules (which are not really law), are vary vague on the matter.
> 
> 
> The way I've read the FCC rules, they must carry one channel from each of the local stations in the basic tier. If that one is analog, there is no requirement to carry digital in the clear. If the one channel is digital and provides HD content, and is a part of the basic tier, then it must be provided in the clear.
> 
> 
> However, this is where it gets vague (at least locally). My cable co. is now converting the digital signals from the locals to analog, but still no clear QAM. They still consider "basic cable" to be analog, and anything digital (including HD locals) to be premium content available only at an additional charge and requiring de-scrambling.



I've seen lots of people state that this is "the law," but I also saw where someone sighted what was supposedly the actual regulation and I didn't think it actually said clear QAM was req'd!!??


For now, I'd guess that you're absolutely (?) correct!!!


thnx


----------



## philherz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ratman* /forum/post/14566339
> 
> 
> Searches on the web also state QAM capability for this model #.



I've read aw much as possible and most everything indicates this set has a QAM tuner!


I did post an inquiry in the Vizio-37 forum and am awaiting a definitive confirmation from all those folks.....


I think my problem is with Time Warner.


thnx


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *philherz* /forum/post/14567247
> 
> 
> 
> I think my problem is with Time Warner.
> 
> 
> thnx



As I said earlier...I would call the cable co...Time Warner in this case...first...You can call today and probably get an answer...


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Ive decided a tradeoff that should work is the CM 0264.



I have the CM0264 and it works great. It has a 300 ohm UHF input, a 300 ohm VHF input, and one 75 ohm combined output. It also has an adjustable FM trap.


I would get one quick, since Channel Master changed hands, its no longer listed in the new catalog.


----------



## Ratman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *philhrez* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I think my problem is with Time Warner.



TWC and/or licencing/pricing agreements/restrictrictions with the landlord of the housing complex.


----------



## vurbano




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/14539535
> 
> 
> Antennas Direct (Terrestrial Digital) ClearStream2 mini review and comparison with DB2 on Indoor Antenna Round Up thread.



Never seen aything like that before


----------



## EscapeVelocity

It looks kinda like a clownish ancient egyptian symbol.


----------



## philherz

I've read as much as possible and most everything indicates this set has a QAM tuner!


I did post an inquiry in the Vizio-37 forum and am awaiting a definitive confirmation from all those folks.....


I think my problem is with Time Warner.


thnx



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/14567282
> 
> 
> As I said earlier...I would call the cable co...Time Warner in this case...first...You can call today and probably get an answer...



OK.....Vizio confirms this is definitely a QAM tuner!


Time Warner confirms they DO NOT give any digital channels with the Lifeline package, but would be glad to provide a couple digital channels for 3 times what they now pay.


HERE'S MY Question: Tuner works fine with a Terk TV-5 that I borrowed- we get 6 local digital channels that they're interested in, but the 7th local only comes in analog.....any suggestions on what antenna might do a better job?


Am I better off posting this question in my local HD forum?


----------



## baud

I dumped Time Warner last summer for ota and Netflik.


----------



## The Hound




> Quote:
> Am I better off posting this question in my local HD forum?



Couldn't hurt.


----------



## rec630

Hope this is the correct topic to post this question to.


I'm in an apartment and looking to improve reception on my DTV CECB. I've currently got an old RadioShack double bow-tie I found in storage that pulls in most local channels - a couple of them well, but the rest get breakups especially the NBC and ABC affiliates (and the CBS affiliate is completely gone broadcasting digital on RF 3 pre transition). I also live near train tracks and every time a train goes by the picture quality really breaks up. Windows are not positioned well to allow an antenna near them.


I'm thinking I need to replace the settop antenna anyway since a couple of the stations are moving back to VHF post transistion. I'm considering one of the Philips or RS amplified antennas (will also be reading EV's antenna test topic), but I'm unclear on the topic of amplification. Different antennas promote different DBs of amplification and I'm not sure how to determine or measure what I would need (or even if I truely need one). More seems better, but I suppose it's possible to get too much. I've atached my TVFool map. It would seem I need a -70 to -90 DBm, but I'm not sure how to translate that.


Thanks much


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rec630* /forum/post/14588906
> 
> 
> Do I need an amplified indoor antenna?



No: Those trains are going to be a reception factor regardless of what you buy or do. Sorry to say it, but the only sure way to eliminate train dropouts is to move far away from the tracks the next time your lease is up.


The double bowtie is a _terrific_ antenna for indoor use. It's been discontinued for years, and nothing on the market now is going to beat it. You can make your own antenna system that will outperform just about every indoor antenna by adding less than $30 worth of parts to the double bowtie, as follows:


If you're handy with a soldering iron (or know someone who is), remove the double bowtie's old twinlead cable and attach a balun (a transformer that can accept a coax cable) to its rivet points on the back. Attach a short RG-6 coax cable to the balun. That will eliminate interference from electrical noise and improve its performance.


As you know, the double bowtie won't get VHF signals. So, get a simple pair of VHF-only rabbit ears (two long whip antennas without a UHF loop in the middle). Cut off most of the twinlead from the rabbit ears' base, twist each of the twinlead's bare wires together with the leads on a second balun, then solder and tape over the two splices. Connect a second short RG-6 cable to the balun.


To combine the coax cables from the double bowtie and the rabbit ears, buy a UVSJ band separator/combiner. Search online for availability (RS doesn't sell them). A UVSJ is like a splitter and costs about the same, $4, but it loses far less signal than a splitter. It has dedicated inputs for the VHF and UHF antennas, and a coax "line" output for connecting it to the CECB with a third RG-6 cable. Best to keep this last cable at 6 feet or less, 9 feet max.


Parts list:


* Three RG-6 coax cables (if you don't already have them)

* Two balun/transformers

* One UVSJ

* One set, VHF rabbit ears


I had a double bowtie for years. It got beat up over time (it is pretty tippy, isn't it?) and had to be discarded. That was a sad day.


----------



## rec630

Thanks Don,


I see Solid Signal has a Pico Macom UVSJ for $3.99 so if I pick up another CECB there, it would be the easy way to go. I assume this is a much better solution than the combiner thing I saw at RS that had two sets of inputs for the flat leads and a coax out?


I had forgotten about having the RS bowtie, but I hooked my new CECB up to the apartment antenna on roof and got a grand total of 1 digital channel. Pulled out the RS ant, rescanned and got 28 channels!!! It's been knocked over a few times, but it's in pretty good shape so should hold up. I've soldered decades ago, so I suppose I couldn't screw it up too badly.










I'd like to get the NBC and ABC affiliates so they don't break up when there's no train which it sounds like your solution should help with but I just resigned the lease so I'll at least have those sporadic train dropouts for a while I guess.


----------



## Konrad2

> I see Solid Signal has a Pico Macom UVSJ for $3.99 so

> if I pick up another CECB there, it would be the easy

> way to go. I assume this is a much better solution than

> the combiner thing I saw at RS that had two sets of

> inputs for the flat leads and a coax out?


The Pico Macom UVSJ works fine. It actually has published

specs (you should be able to find them on www.picomacom.com ),

which I doubt the RS unit has.


> I had forgotten about having the RS bowtie, but I hooked

> my new CECB up to the apartment antenna on roof and got a

> grand total of 1 digital channel. Pulled out the RS ant,

> rescanned and got 28 channels!!!


There is something VERY VERY WRONG with the rooftop

antenna, or with the distribution system. Coax unplugged?

Preamp no longer getting power? Coax and/or balun

waterlogged?


> I'd like to get the NBC and ABC affiliates so they don't

> break up when there's no train


I'd try to find out what is wrong with the rooftop antenna.

The height would help a lot with your train problem.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Ive looked everywhere for Pico Macom UVSJ's.


I havent found any for sale.


Solid Signal shipped me Holland UVSJ's when I ordered as substitution. If you order Holland UVSJ's from them, they are a couple dollars cheaper. Dont order the Pico UVSJ and pay extra for the subbed Hollands.


----------



## Splicer010

A 2 way splitter does the EXACT same thing people...Unless you are running 2 seperate inputs on your receiver/TV...and need to seperate the uhf/vhf frequencies...a UVSJ is really no better than a splitter...Published specs is nice but really unneccessary for the average Joe...If 3 dB makes or breaks your reception...you need more than a bowtie...


Apartment antennas are notorious for being non-functional...Broken wires...mouse chews...power being cut to amplifiers...bad amplifiers...poor connectors...cables not connected behind the wall plate in a different apartment...and the list goes on...A balcony type antenna is your best bet...or cable...or satellite...I can assure you that the property manager will do nothing to fix the antenna...


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/14594585
> 
> 
> A 2 way splitter does the EXACT same thing people...



WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!Why are you giving out such incorrect/uninformed advice with over 1000 posts???? A USVJ isolates the 2 bands to eliminate duplicate frequencies. It also filters out out of band signals. A splitter does neither of these.


As far as insertion loss, 3-4db, vs. 0.5 db _"can"_ make a difference to the average joe. Even with a good antenna system, many find some stations that are weak enough to cause unreliable reception. For those right on the digital edge; the additional 2-3 db _"can"_ improve reception; and help eliminate digital hiccups. Both the UVSJ, and HLSJ are _"vital"_ components in my system; thanks to the expert advice I received here from _Rick0725_.(Many Thanks!!)


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/14594791
> 
> 
> WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!Why are you giving out such incorrect/uninformed advice with over 1000 posts???? A USVJ isolates the 2 bands to eliminate duplicate frequencies. It also filters out out of band signals. A splitter does neither of these.



Why don't you quote EXACTLY what I posted vs. only partially???







Not to mention you will NOT see duplicate frequencies on both the UHF and VHF bands...Pretty much an impossible feat...And finally...Of course it "filters out out of band signals"...Duh...It will only pass the frequencies it is rated for...THE SAME AS A SPLITTER WILL ONLY PASS THE FREQUENCIES IT IS RATED FOR...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> A 2 way splitter does the EXACT same thing people...*Unless you are running 2 seperate inputs on your receiver/TV...and need to seperate the uhf/vhf frequencies...*





> Quote:
> As far as insertion loss, 3-4db, vs. 0.5 db _"can"_ make a difference to the average joe. Even with a good antenna system, *many find some stations that are weak enough to cause unreliable reception. For those right on the digital edge; the additional 2-3 db "can" improve reception; and help eliminate digital hiccups.*



These are the people that would benefit greatly from a PRE AMP...And if they have a "good antenna system" to begin with...they most likely have one already...


> Quote:
> Both the UVSJ, and HLSJ are _"vital"_ components in my system; thanks to the expert advice I received here from _Rick0725_.(Many Thanks!!)




These are not "vital" unless you are actually using different receiver inputs as I mentioned in my original post...and even then are not "vital"...I do this stuff for a living...Have done so for more than 26 years...Unless you are using specifically 'cut' antennas...a 2 way will work just fine for the poster I was replying to...I don't know your setup so can't comment any further on that...


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/14594941
> 
> 
> Not to mention you will NOT see duplicate frequencies on both the UHF and VHF bands...Pretty much an impossible feat...




Perhaps I'm not understanding you, but are you sure that you want to say that?


Does your statement apply with other antenna combinations, or are you refering strictly to those mentioned in this conversation?


I ask with this thought in mind: What if the UHF antenna was a CM 4228? How many references to it being a satisfactory VHF antenna in some situations have there been on this thread? Would you count on it to not send a VHF signal into the combiner*, only to have it combined with the signals from a true VHF antenna on the combiner's* other input?


*edit: replaced original word "mixer" with "combiner".


----------



## Splicer010

Absolutely I want to say that...or I would not have said it...


You will not see a UHF frequency duplicated on the VHF band...and vice versa..


Now if what was meant that 2 of the same frequencies on one band or the other...well of course it is possible...but highly unlikely...and even so a USVJ cannot differentiate between the desired signal and the unwanted signal...


UHF antennas as well as VHF antennas both will recieve the other band besides the band it is designed for...just not optimally...regardless...in virtually all installations...the opposing band will have such a minimal effect that it won't have any consequence on the end result...



> Quote:
> Would you count on it to not send a VHF signal into the mixer, only to have it combined with the signals from a true VHF antenna on the mixer's other input?



Not quite sure I follow you here...When you say "mixer"...do you mean a combiner??? And if indeed that is what you mean...that really has nothing to do with what the discussion is over...which is a seperator...What I am saying is a seperator in most cases...is unneccessary and a combiner...esentially a splitter used in reverse...is all that is needed with the dual bow tie antenna OR bow tie...UHF...and rabbit ears...VHF...UNLESS you are running 2 seperate inputs on your receiver/TV...and need to seperate the uhf/vhf frequencies...


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> As far as insertion loss, 3-4db, vs. 0.5 db "can" make a difference to the average joe.



Keep in mind the .5db figure is basically a best case scenario. With a bad connection, it can be much, much worse.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler

Other random thoughts:


How many people have made an antenna selection based on a difference of .5db? I suspect many.


We use RG6 instead of RG59 because of signal loss on this scale.


And 3 db sounds like the difference between seeing the 4th quarter of an out-of DMA football game and not seeing it (if its signal is fading).


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/14594941
> 
> 
> Why don't you quote EXACTLY what I posted vs. only partially???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not to mention you will NOT see duplicate frequencies on both the UHF and VHF bands...Pretty much an impossible feat...And finally...Of course it "filters out out of band signals"...Duh...It will only pass the frequencies it is rated for...THE SAME AS A SPLITTER WILL ONLY PASS THE FREQUENCIES IT IS RATED FOR...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are the people that would benefit greatly from a PRE AMP...And if they have a "good antenna system" to begin with...they most likely have one already...
> 
> 
> 
> These are not "vital" unless you are actually using different receiver inputs as I mentioned in my original post...and even then are not "vital"...I do this stuff for a living...Have done so for more than 26 years...Unless you are using specifically 'cut' antennas...a 2 way will work just fine for the poster I was replying to...I don't know your setup so can't comment any further on that...



You are so far out of touch with what the UVSJ is designed for. Have you ever even used one? When the _"real"_ antenna experts chime in; you will need to retract these inaccuracies.


Tobias, I suggest you wait to see wht others say about this issue. I don't know where this guy is getting his information from.


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/14595433
> 
> 
> How many people have made an antenna selection based on a difference of .5db? I suspect many.



Many that don't really know the reason...just that it is .5 'better'...It is a 'mindset' issue more than anything else...



> Quote:
> We use RG6 instead of RG59 because of signal loss on this scale.



Not exactly true...If the difference was a mere .5dB...I assure you that the added expense of the larger RG6 would not be justified...Again... @ .5dB...it is a 'mindset' advantage...Now if we were talking 2dB and up...and that indeed is the case...then of course the expense is justified...



> Quote:
> And 3 db sounds like the difference between seeing the 4th quarter of an out-of DMA football game and not seeing it (if its signal is fading).



In this instance it is probable that the first 3 quarters weren't seen either...In which case a pre-amp is what is needed...


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/14595480
> 
> 
> You are so far out of touch with what the UVSJ is designed for. Have you ever even used one? When the _"real"_ antenna experts chime in; you will need to retract these inaccuracies.





> Quote:
> Separates and isolates VHF (54-216 MHz) from UHF high (470-809 MHz) signals providing for clean insertion into headend strip amplifier. Filters and mixes VHF and UHF signals allowing mixing of multiple antenna onto single cable.



This is what it is designed for...When you go out and design and build CATV headends and OSP as I have for the past 26+ years...you might then actually have something intelligent to say...



> Quote:
> *Filters and mixes VHF and UHF signals allowing mixing of multiple antenna onto single cable.*



This is another way of saying IT IS A COMBINER!!!










Better yet...I could use a good laugh...why don't YOU tell me what a UVSJ is designed for...


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rec630* /forum/post/14592388
> 
> 
> I see Solid Signal has a Pico Macom UVSJ for $3.99 so if I pick up another CECB there, it would be the easy way to go. I assume this is a much better solution than the combiner thing I saw at RS that had two sets of inputs for the flat leads and a coax out?



Subsequent posters are correct about the availability of the Pico Macoms, and SS has taken some criticism for selling what they call PMs when what purchasers get are Hollands. They recently put a disclaimer to that effect on the product page. The Holland is a smidge more lossy than the PM at 0.7 dB insertion loss vs. 0.5 dB, but that still beats a splitter or the combiner you described by several country miles. Best of all, they don't cost any more to buy.


I recently bought a Holland UVSJ from SS to combine my hand-built DB-4 clone for UHF with an AntennaCraft Y5713 for VHF-high. Signal levels are higher, if anything -- upper 80s to low 90s average -- and they're a lot more stable now than they were on just the UHF antenna. Haven't had a dropout since insertion. Setup is in the attic 60 feet from one receiver, we don't need a pre-amp, and we're 23 miles with LOS from all of the network affiliates. I can't say enough good things about the UVSJ.



> Quote:
> ... I hooked my new CECB up to the apartment antenna on roof and got a grand total of 1 digital channel.


*Splicer* was spot on with that list of things that typically go wrong with community antenna systems in apartment buildings. Just like to add: If the building is more than 25-30 years old, chances are real good its antenna is VHF only. Most of your digitals are UHF, now and after the transition. Pestering the manager/super about a new antenna and upgraded system might be in order. A community antenna high on the roof would be a lot less vulnerable to train dropouts. And, after all, they gotta put up with you for another year!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/14594791
> 
> 
> ... Both the UVSJ, and HLSJ are _"vital"_ components in my system; thanks to the expert advice I received here from _Rick0725_.(Many Thanks!!)



Hear, hear! I found out about them from him, too. Guy's advice is golden, far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/14595189
> 
> 
> UHF antennas as well as VHF antennas both will recieve the other band besides the band it is designed for...just not optimally...regardless...in virtually all installations...the opposing band will have such a minimal effect that it won't have any consequence on the end result...



That's not right.


The VHF rabbit ears will pick up a UHF signal complete with reflections. When added to a dedicated UHF antenna with a splitter the refelections from the rabbit ears are added to the UHF antenna. When added with a UVSJ, the UHF reflections are filtered out.


Hence the diffference is both a stronger and a cleaner UHF signal with a UVSJ compared to a splitter used backwards.


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> ... If the building is more than 25-30 years old, chances are real good its antenna is VHF only.



Which brings up another way to skin this particular cat: Forget the rabbit ears for now, and try connecting the building antenna to the VHF side of the UVSJ. Run the double bowtie's coax to its UHF connector as before. Worth a shot; get the rabbit ears if it doesn't work. (Wish I'd known about the UVSJ years ago when I lived in an apartment house with a community VHF antenna. Hooked the system into an A/B switch; fed the other side of the switch with a beat-up RS Grey-Hoverman knockoff for UHF. Whadda pain!)


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The Holland and JVI and Blonder Tongue versions of the UVSJ are all good. The Picos had slightly better specs, though. However the others were/are cheaper.


The Radio Shack UHF/VHF Seperator/Combiner is more expensive but can be picked up at the local store, and no shipping.


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/14597738
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Splicer010
> 
> UHF antennas as well as VHF antennas both will recieve the other band besides the band it is designed for...just not optimally...regardless...in virtually all installations...the opposing band will have such a minimal effect that it won't have any consequence on the end result...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not right.
> 
> 
> The VHF rabbit ears will pick up a UHF signal complete with reflections. When added to a dedicated UHF antenna with a splitter the refelections from the rabbit ears are added to the UHF antenna. When added with a UVSJ, the UHF reflections are filtered out.
> 
> 
> Hence the diffference is both a stronger and a cleaner UHF signal with a UVSJ compared to a splitter used backwards.
Click to expand...


Yes...it IS right...You just explained in more detail...


Now you agreed that a VHF antenna will pick up UHF...*but not optimally*...


I also stated that


> Quote:
> *virtually all* installations...the opposing band will have such a minimal effect that it won't have any consequence on the end result...



and that is correct...Of course there will be situations where a UVSJ is required...I mean...why the hell else would they be made if not...Neccessity is the mother of all inventions after all...


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/14598174
> 
> 
> Now you agreed that a VHF antenna will pick up UHF...*but not optimally...
> *


*


With DTV "less than optimum" usually means dropouts and pixelization.*


----------



## mattdp

The RG-11 connectors and a UVSJ arrived from Solid Signal today!!! Now all I have to wait for is the rotor bearing, we get a few parts locally, and the antenna goes up.


I was hoping the RG-11 connectors (Digicon PVFC11) would come with terminating instructions/directions, but they didn't.


After a little surfing, I can't find anything.


Can someone tell me dimensions for shield/center conductor?


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/14598791
> 
> 
> With DTV "less than optimum" usually means dropouts and pixelization.



Or no reception at all...I never said otherwise...


----------



## Konrad2

>>> If the building is more than 25-30 years old, chances are

>>> real good its antenna is VHF only.


Depends on where you live.


>> Wish I'd known about the UVSJ years ago when I lived in an

>> apartment house with a community VHF antenna. Hooked the

>> system into an A/B switch; fed the other side of the switch

>> with a beat-up RS Grey-Hoverman knockoff for UHF. Whadda pain!


Yes, the switch is less convenient than the UVSJ diplexor,

but you may get better reception using the switch. The less

stuff on the wire, the less distortion and interference you

get. Extra stuff on the wire can even force the tuner's AGC

to reduce the signal of your desired station, resulting in

a worse S/N (snow on analog). This can be especially

problematic when the desired station is weak.


> The Holland and JVI and Blonder Tongue versions of the UVSJ are

> all good. The Picos had slightly better specs, though. However

> the others were/are cheaper.


I found the Pico UVSJ available for $0.93 less than a year ago.


The UVSJ can be used as a high pass filter by terminating the VHF port.

That's what I'm using mine for now, since I get better reception

with VHF and UHF kept seperate. You can use the same trick with the

HLSJ diplexor to improve reception of VHF-HI.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/14600538
> 
> 
> The UVSJ can be used as a high pass filter by terminating the VHF port.
> 
> That's what I'm using mine for now, since I get better reception
> 
> with VHF and UHF kept seperate. You can use the same trick with the
> 
> HLSJ diplexor to improve reception of VHF-HI.



Finally someone speaks the real truth!! Thanks Konrad2 for verifying some of the excellent uses of these 2 items. Those of us who seek to maximize our reception appreciate this accurate; excellent advice!!


I do pretty much what you do; but I _must_ pre-filter my VHF-HI antenna (YA-1713) with the HLSJ. If I don't pre-filter out the Low VHF; I lose some of my weaker UHF channels once it is connected to the UVSJ. The HLSJ also improves my 1 VHF digital quite a bit. For less than $10.00; I get _many_ more channels reliably than I would using a conventional 2 way splitter.


Thanks again!!


----------



## AntAltMike

There is no reason to believe that the Pico UVSJ has less loss than the Holland or Blonder Tongue products. These are dime-store products that probably don't cost ten cents each to make, and there is no reason to have a laboratory precisely evaluate them. Because they all use the same chincy "center conductor seizure mechanism" that the 1GHz F-81s use that some hobbiests disdain, the actual loss will vary by a few tenths of a dB just based on how well that center conductor rubs up against the tiny piece of tin plated steel in the UVSJ that mates with it, and the loss will actually vary a few tenths of a dB over the UHF band.


BTW, for whatever use anyone might make of this, the HLSJ passes channels 7-69 on its VHF-hi leg.


----------



## spokybob




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nwiser* /forum/post/14546905
> 
> 
> 
> another question would be, if their signal can broadcast OTA, why havent they tried doing that instead of running miles and miles of cable everywhere?
> 
> 
> Theres talk on the DTV CECB forums here about some boxes possibly having hidden smartcard/chip features for future OTA pay services, which is also very interesting. That sure would be good for the consumer and competition, as most markets with cable usually only have one provider due to cable having to be run.



Years ago, grandpa received a movie and Dodgers pay channel over the air. He used a UHF antenna & a little decoder box. I think he paid about $10 a month. I can't remember the name because that was about 30 years ago.


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/14601248
> 
> 
> BTW, for whatever use anyone might make of this, the HLSJ passes channels 7-69 on its VHF-hi leg.



Thanks, that is useful; it means I can easily use one antenna for Channel 6 and one antenna for Channel 12 and UHF.


----------



## HEDND

splicer010

You are so wrong about combining uhf and vhf with a common splitter! I know for a fact it causes ghosts (on analog) when the bands aren't separated. Dumping seperate uhf and vhf antennas into a 2W splitter without isolation is so wrong . And the 3db deal does make a wicked difference.I am the headend tech for a cable company and deal with getting the best reception for my cutomers. 27 years dealing with off-air. I never tell people my job, but I hate people like you who give that kind of advice and think they are "SO" correct. Now give me back a wrong(nasty) reply!


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HEDND* /forum/post/14602108
> 
> 
> splicer010
> 
> You are so wrong about combining uhf and vhf with a common splitter! I know for a fact it causes ghosts (on analog) when the bands aren't separated. Dumping seperate uhf and vhf antennas into a 2W splitter without isolation is so wrong . And the 3db deal does make a wicked difference.I am the headend tech for a cable company and deal with getting the best reception for my cutomers. 27 years dealing with off-air. I never tell people my job, but I hate people like you who give that kind of advice and think they are "SO" correct. Now give me back a wrong(nasty) reply!










Uh...yeah..."wicked difference"...







And I am real impressed...Not..."Headend Tech"..."Never tell people my job"...







You are so full of it your eyes are brown...


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/14594941
> 
> 
> ...Of course it, "filters out out of band signals"...Duh...It will only pass the frequencies it is rated for...THE SAME AS A SPLITTER WILL ONLY PASS THE FREQUENCIES IT IS RATED FOR...



The rating on a splitter assures that its design does not incidentally attenuate signals within a certain band. That does not mean it attenuates those outside the band, just as the "sweep testing" on coax does not indicate that the coax will not work well outside thits tested range. I have used 1,000 MHz sweep tested RG-6 at over 3 GHz, and so have lots of other people.


HLSJs typically have about 30 to 40dB of out-of-band rejection engineered into them. I know most of you don't have signal meters to evaluate them, but if you run your analog cable TV signal through a the VHF port on a typical UVSJ, you'll see that the picture starts to visibly degrade around channels 28 to 30 (about 250-270 MHz) and is completely wiped out by about channels 32 or 33.


A splitter, on the other hand, is not engineered to filter off any RF signal, so any out-of-band attenuation they exhibit is incidental. There are a lot of satellite splitters that say 900-2,150 MHz on them, yet in my vast experience of using them in the field, they pass the entire broadcast band just as well as splitters rated down to 54 MHz.


But I have had very bad luck using the European splitters that are rated 450 to 1,750 MHz for VHF. I've had several make channels 4 and 17 (which are harmonics of one another) really ugly visually when I tried to use them in a commercial headend in a pinch. ( I haven't recently participated in this forum as much as I had previously, but I design an average of two or three multi-antenna, multi-channel headends a month for highrise master antenna system combining half a dozen antennas and roughly balancing signals whose strengths vary by typically 40 dB coming off the downleads.)



> Quote:
> These are the people that would benefit greatly from a PRE AMP...And if they have a "good antenna system" to begin with...they most likely have one already...



A saving of three dB of signal loss for signals that are estimated to be weak is very significant, and more so to those of you who don't have signal meters. In a situation with significant differences in signal levels, it is much better to sustain the weaker signals by minimizing system losses than by preamplification because the various intermodulation byproducts and fall on and decimate the weaker signals even when the loading of the preamp is under the benchmark intermodulation threshold that the manufacturers furnish, and unnecessarily boosting the stronger signals that cannot be separated from the weaker ones can result in tuner input overload. Any time someone is concerned about signal strength but has a system in which they can save 3dB with a four dollar part ( I pay $1 each, but I buy in quantity), they certainly should do so.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mattdp* /forum/post/14600078
> 
> 
> The RG-11 connectors and a UVSJ arrived from Solid Signal today!!! Now all I have to wait for is the rotor bearing, we get a few parts locally, and the antenna goes up.
> 
> 
> I was hoping the RG-11 connectors (Digicon PVFC11) would come with terminating instructions/directions, but they didn't.



Here's an instruction: buy a $60 compression tool.


You need to prep the end of the wire by trimming the end so there is 1/4" of exposed cernter conductor and another 1/4" of foil showing. You should fold back the braid.


With some skill, you can compress them using two pair of Channel Locks at the same time, but you have to be careful. Most self-installers are better off buying the old, cheaper crimp-style RG-11 connectors that they can crimp with pliers by carefully making small pinches on thier perimeter.


With the Digicons, you get to see the center conductor enter the pin siezure mechanism before you stuff the body of the coax into the connector, but with most other models of RG-11 compression connector, when you push it into the connector, you can make sure it goes all the way in by measuring how far in the outher jacket has to go and then marking it, perhaps with tape, so you will know when it is all the way in.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *spokybob* /forum/post/14601273
> 
> 
> Years ago, grandpa received a movie and Dodgers pay channel over the air. He used a UHF antenna & a little decoder box. I think he paid about $10 a month. I can't remember the name because that was about 30 years ago.



We had something like that here in DC also. It was called "_*Super TV*_".


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/14601248
> 
> 
> BTW, for whatever use anyone might make of this, the HLSJ passes channels 7-69 on its VHF-hi leg.



Thanks Mike, that's good to know!! This makes a _"great"_ FM trap if it provides 30-40 db of attenuation.


----------



## MeowMeow

Where do you buy the bearing for above the rotator?


I was looking on Solid Signal, and they have the mounts I need (18" pair of wall mounts). But, I'll be damned if I can find the bearing.


----------



## videobruce

You should be able to find a compression tool for close to $30. Not sure I would try double Channel Locks.









There are strippers available to strip the cable to the correct length without guessing or nicking anything.


----------



## HEDND




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/14602281
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uh...yeah..."wicked difference"...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I am real impressed...Not..."Headend Tech"..."Never tell people my job"...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are so full of it your eyes are brown...



Sorry about the"wicked" phrase,I am from Boston . As for being a "headend tech" I use a $20,000 HP analyzer everyday to measure signal levels. I use a common CM0549 combiner to separate signals which Neilson ratings (heard of them!) pulls from my antennas to monitor Boston and Providence signals. The 0549 is rated at 30dB isolation between bands but "uh oh" I only get 28dB.They were made for a reason. By the way my eyes are green!


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HEDND* /forum/post/14603004
> 
> 
> Sorry about the"wicked" phrase,I am from Boston .



People from Beverly pronounce it, "wick-*ed'* "


----------



## Ratman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HEDND* /forum/post/14603004
> 
> 
> I use a $20,000 HP analyzer everyday to measure signal levels. I use a common CM0549 combiner to separate signals...



I have a dual-column gas chromatograph, Hewlett-Packard model 5710a with flame analyzing detectors.


Does that thing come turbo-charged?


Only on the floor models!


Sorry... couldn't resist.


----------



## mattdp

Thanks for the info, folks! I'm gonna try the two channel-lock method (which worked great for all the RG-6 connectors), as I don't think I can convince my dad to spend $30 on a tool to crimp two connectors.


Rotor Bearings: Stark electronics and Warren electronics are about the only places I could find online.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler

But what's a "yute" ?


----------



## HEDND

Is My cousin Vinny playing? You guys are too funny! I had to put in my 2 cents before. I have "lurked" here for a very long time and stayed quiet. There is a wealth of great advice from some very knowlegeable people(too many to mention names) who know their antennas. To all of you, thanks!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Thanks for the info, folks! I'm gonna try the two channel-lock method (which worked great for all the RG-6 connectors), as I don't think I can convince my dad to spend $30 a tool to crimp two connectors.



Another option is to custom make a compression tool from a good sized cheapie c-clamp. Drill a small hole in the center of one end of the clamp (stationary end) for the center wire to go thru, and heavily drill/file the other end (the adjustable one) for the outer cable to just go thru, yet catch the compression part.

The reason I say use a cheapie c-clamp is that the metal is softer and the spinning washer clamp on the adjustable part is thinner. It would be much harder to do with a quality c-clamp, heh. Youll need about a 6 to 12 inch cheapie c-clamp, available where ever chinese junk is sold for less than $10. Ive even some clamps in the $1 store that would fit the bill.


Hmmm, a caulking gun may even fit the bill.


----------



## bozey45

starkelectronic.com has the TB-105 rotor bearing. it's hard to find unless you search "TB-105 rotor bearing". am going to get one myself for my 91-XG and HD-5030 antennas.


----------



## MeowMeow

Thanks for the advice on the bearings.


----------



## holl_ands

*Stacking Antenna* and *Stagger Stacking* links need to be added to PAGE 1:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=14593948


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: *Stacking Antennas* and *Stagger Stacking* link updates:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=14593948


----------



## oc-rdx

*CM7777*


Not sure if I misunderstood how this thing is suppose to work, or if I got a dud.


I have 2 stations that show a week signal on my zenith converter box, but not strong enough to get a picture. My sister lives 2 miles away and can watch both channels, although they are not strong signals for her. So I bought a CM-7777 and hooked it up to my antenna, thinking I'd be able to pull them both in. I hooked it up separately to each antenna & the signal strength on both these stations is exactly the same with & without the CM7777 (weak signal, no picture). There is also no difference in strength/picture on all the existing channels I receive. I removed the cover & tried switching between VHF & combined, & played with the FM trap, with no difference.


The only benefit I see is when I add a 3 way splitter after the power supply. Without the preamp a couple of my existing channels would break up, when using the splitter. With the preamp all 3 splits are strong.


Other information:


- My zip is 92612-1632 & antenna is in the attic


- main antenna pointed at Mt Wilson, similar to Radio Shack VU-90 XR, & all stations in green come in strong(TVfool)


- trying to pick up channel 8, KFLA, on this antenna, also on Mt Wilson


- Winegard HD-1080 is pointed at Channel 24 (real 26) KVCR



My sister's zip is 92614 & she has antenna in the rafters of her garage. Same two antennas used, yet she gets the two channels that I'm trying to pick up. She does not have a preamp.



So should this preamp allow me pick up these two weaker channels or is it only designed to increase signal strength that would be lost due to a long cable run or from using a splitter?


----------



## nybbler

The pre-amp will help in two cases


1) Your signal is too weak because of splitters and cable loss

2) Your signal is marginal and your pre-amp has a lower noise figure than your tuner.


A pre-amp will generally not help with multipath or other interference.


Your best bet is probably to get your antenna outside.


----------



## The Hound




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rec630* /forum/post/14592388
> 
> 
> Thanks Don,
> 
> 
> I see Solid Signal has a Pico Macom UVSJ for $3.99 so if I pick up another CECB there, it would be the easy way to go. I *assume this is a much better solution than the combiner thing I saw at RS that had two sets of inputs for the flat leads and a coax out?*



I use This type of unit,(the one with 300ohm, flat leads in) to combine VHF and UHF.

Then coax out to the sets.

It works fine and you wouldn't have to put bulans on the 300ohm leads.


----------



## Mloot

In a couple of weeks I will be visiting my grandparents and I want to improve their digital reception. Here is the tvfool plot for where they live:

http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?i...igital2wh7.png 


Their current setup consists of an indoor Terk HDTVi antenna (no amplification) and a Zenith converter box. They get reliable reception on channels 2.1, 6.1, and 7.1. 18.1 is almost strong enough to lock in, but suffers from dropouts. What surprised me is that they get reliable reception on KSWO (7.1, rf channl 11) at 40 miles out.


Anyway, I want to mount an outdoor antenna and I was considering the CM 4228. I know it's a UHF antenna and is not really designed for high VHF. But do you guys think that since they get good reception on KSWO with an indoor antenna, that they should still get a reliable signal with a 4228 (with the screens zip tied together)? Or should I just consider a combo antenna, like the CM 3018?


----------



## Digital Rules

The 4228 is an excellent choice for your location. That channel 11 is Line of Sight, and shouldn't be a problem. Also, a great idea to tie the 2 screens together.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mloot* /forum/post/14614458
> 
> 
> In a couple of weeks I will be visiting my grandparents and I want to improve their digital reception. Here is the tvfool plot for where they live:
> 
> http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?i...igital2wh7.png
> 
> 
> Their current setup consists of an indoor Terk HDTVi antenna (no amplification) and a Zenith converter box. They get reliable reception on channels 2.1, 6.1, and 7.1. 18.1 is almost strong enough to lock in, but suffers from dropouts. What surprised me is that they get reliable reception on KSWO (7.1, rf channl 11) at 40 miles out.
> 
> 
> Anyway, I want to mount an outdoor antenna and I was considering the CM 4228. I know it's a UHF antenna and is not really designed for high VHF. But do you guys think that since they get good reception on KSWO with an indoor antenna, that they should still get a reliable signal with a 4228 (with the screens zip tied together)? Or should I just consider a combo antenna, like the CM 3018?



The signals arrive from too wide a range of angles for a 4228. Due to LOS and strong signals, you don't need the gain of a 4228.


If you want a UHF only a 4221 is worth trying. Otherwise I'd go with one of the 7-69 antennas.


----------



## SpeedyLA

I've tried reading some pages of this thread (256 pages!).


I'm a new reader to OTA HD and had some questions about a new home with a radiant barrier in attic and HOA rules. I would love to get free HD. I think I can use the existing TV cable installed through the house and be able to distribute from the outside hookup that was installed for the cable providers to provide service.


My zip is 75070 and there are several DT stations ~30-50mi. away.


It looks like I need a pink code antenna, which are the largest of the directionals IIRC. The house is a 2-story and has a radiant barrier, so I can't do an attic install. The HOA is restrictive, so even the FCC rules only allow a 1 meter antenna. My questions are:


1). What's the best approach to ask the HOA to allow mast-mount of a larger sized antenna on the roof? (Has anyone ever fought a case like this)

2). Or is there a pink code antenna that is within the 1 meter size?


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SpeedyLA* /forum/post/14616811
> 
> 
> 1). What's the best approach to ask the HOA to allow mast-mount of a larger sized antenna on the roof? (Has anyone ever fought a case like this)
> 
> 
> 2). Or is there a pink code antenna that is within the 1 meter size?



You'll have a hard time finding an antenna under 1 meter in size that's rated for the "pink zone." Please consider these factors:


* The 1-meter size limit you mentioned applies only to direct-broadcast satellite dishes and "wireless cable" service antennas. It does not apply to "an antenna that is designed to receive local television broadcast signals" mounted on a mast no higher than 12 feet above the roofline.


* The FCC Over-the-Air Reception Devices (OTARD) rule prohibits HOA and municipal restrictions that, among other things, "precludes a person from receiving ... an acceptable quality signal from an antenna covered under the rule." They also may not regulate so as to preclude their use, cause unnecessary delay or require unreasonable cost. The rule, available in full here , does not specify how an "acceptable signal" is determined.


Thus, the HOA can influence placement of the antenna on the roof, but not so as to render it useless. It can also restrict antennas to those designed to receive "local television broadcast signals." If, for example, the stations that are 50 miles away are considered out of your market -- i.e., they're carried by neither the area's cable provider nor DBS services -- then a "pink zone" antenna could well be off limits in your HOA.


I'd print the OTARD FAQ from the link above and bring it to an association director or architectural-control committee member for a consultation before you start. A little bit of communication at the outset can go a long way toward preventing an HOA war later on.


----------



## SpeedyLA

Thanks Don_M!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/14617429
> 
> 
> You'll have a hard time finding an antenna under 1 meter in size that's rated for the "pink zone." Please consider these factors:
> 
> 
> * The 1-meter size limit you mentioned applies only to direct-broadcast satellite dishes and "wireless cable" service antennas. It does not apply to "an antenna that is designed to receive local television broadcast signals" mounted on a mast no higher than 12 feet above the roofline.



Thanks, I was confused because of the wording that I was limited to 1-meter as well for TV. Am I correctly reading that there is no limit to size for television broadcast and up to a 12' mast?











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/14617429
> 
> 
> 
> Thus, the HOA can influence placement of the antenna on the roof, but not so as to render it useless. It can also restrict antennas to those designed to receive "local television broadcast signals." If, for example, the stations that are 50 miles away are considered out of your market -- i.e., they're carried by neither the area's cable provider nor DBS services -- then a "pink zone" antenna could well be off limits in your HOA.
> 
> 
> I'd print the OTARD FAQ from the link above and bring it to an association director or architectural-control committee member for a consultation before you start. A little bit of communication at the outset can go a long way toward preventing an HOA war later on.



I am definitely going to try and keep open communication with the HOA. But I will definitely be giving them a copy of OTARD. As far as local programming, it's the local stations for the area, but since the Dallas metro is so large, most of the stations are ~50 mi. away. Can the HOA place a restriction based on the fact that I could get these stations with for-pay services like satellite/cable?


----------



## oc-rdx




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/14613495
> 
> 
> A pre-amp will generally not help with multipath or other interference.



Thanks nybbler,


I know what multipath does to my analog VHF channels. 2,4,7,9,11&13 have had terrible ghosting ever since they built an 11 story office bldg 3 blocks away. It is behind me, opposite direction of the towers. 7&9 are the worst by far. Oddly, analog channel 5 is clear. I have no problems with UHF, both analog & digital are clear. I'm now getting the above channels in digital on UHF.


In February, digital 7,9,11 & 13 move back to VHF. How will multipath affect these digital signals, once back on VHF? Will I see ghosting, like for analog, or will the signal breakup?


----------



## oc-rdx




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SpeedyLA* /forum/post/14616811
> 
> 
> The house is a 2-story and has a radiant barrier, so I can't do an attic install.



Could you remove some of the radiant barrier?


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oc-rdx* /forum/post/14618920
> 
> 
> Could you remove some of the radiant barrier?



Probably not without tearing off that section of the roofing material as well. The radiant barrier was put there for a reason -- to keep excessive heat from building up in the attic, and indirectly to keep a lid on AC costs. This is Texas we're talking about! Besides, an attic antenna is less likely to perform well at a range of 50 miles.


----------



## SpeedyLA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oc-rdx* /forum/post/14618920
> 
> 
> Could you remove some of the radiant barrier?



Not likely, it's special aluminum sheets that are installed between the rafters(?) and the roofing.


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SpeedyLA* /forum/post/14617833
> 
> 
> Am I correctly reading that there is no limit to size for television broadcast and up to a 12' mast?



There's a size limit, all right, but the HOA's right to regulate size ends at the point where over-the-air reception becomes unreliable. An association close to the transmitters can more reasonably limit antenna size than one dozens of miles away. That's why OTARD contains no hard and fast rules beyond the "acceptable quality signals" from "local" stations yardstick. If those stations are 50 miles away, so be it: OTARD requires the HOA to stand aside as you erect an antenna sufficient to receive them reliably. But please do read the fact sheet in that link carefully so as to stay within all of the rule's safe harbors.



> Quote:
> Can the HOA place a restriction based on the fact that I could get these stations with for-pay services like satellite/cable?



That won't cut it under OTARD, either, unless the home in question happens to be a condo unit with no balcony and where the HOA owns the building exterior, including the roof. The rule won't protect a homeowner who attaches an antenna to, or erects it upon, someone else's property, even if the individual is a member of the association owning the property. If you own the structure, or you have exclusive control over it (such as a balcony), you can attach an outdoor antenna to it, or at least place one on it.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oc-rdx* /forum/post/14618816
> 
> 
> Thanks nybbler,
> 
> 
> I know what multipath does to my analog VHF channels........In February, digital 7,9,11 & 13 move back to VHF. How will multipath affect these digital signals, once back on VHF? Will I see ghosting, like for analog, or will the signal breakup?



Your best bet for fighting VHF multipath is to get a better antenna like the YA-1713. It will fight mutipath even better if you can get it up on the roof.


You won't see ghosts with digital; but may experience hiccups/dropouts; or pixelization.


----------



## oc-rdx

I live in a 2 story townhome with 4 other units attached, all side by side with back yards. They are technically condos and there are about 250 units in the complex. I see lots of satellite dishes mounted all over the place. Some on roofs, some on wood beams, chimneys & some attached to stucco walls. So it appears that my HOA does not restrict where they can be mounted. I've only seen one small wing type antenna mounted with a dish.


Can I assume that if my HOA has no enforcement of where the dishes can be mounted, they can't object to a similar location for an antenna? They can’t say dishes are ok but antennas aren’t, right? My antenna is currently in my attic.


----------



## Don_M

Quote:

Originally Posted by *oc-rdx* 
Can I assume that if my HOA has no enforcement of where the dishes can be mounted, they can't object to a similar location for an antenna? They can’t say dishes are ok but antennas aren’t, right?
Not necessarily. Under OTARD, it all depends on who owns what. If you own the exterior of the building, including the roof, you can place an antenna above the roof. Check your deed paperwork. If it shows you bought your property "fee simple," then you very likely own the exterior of your unit, the roof and the land lot it sits on. If the deed shows you own a space-frame unit, then your ownership ends around the back side of the drywall. If the association owns the exterior of your buildings and decides it does not want OTA antennas, OTARD can't be used, even if the association grants permission for dishes.

_However..._ OTARD aside, you do bring up an interesting issue of equity under the law: Why should some people get to put up one kind of outdoor antenna (a satellite dish) when neighbors who only wish to receive local broadcasts are barred from putting up another kind of antenna, one designed for OTA? Problem is, proving such a case will involve lawyers, courtrooms -- and lots and lots of money.


IOW, if OTARD requirements are met, the burden is on the association to prove it's right. See the attached decision for more on this. If OTARD isn't applicable, the burden is on you to prove the association wrong in court.

 

FCC OTARD ruling.pdf 114.087890625k . file


----------



## outkst012l

Hi guys,


Just wanted to check in and validate if decision would be a wise one.

I live in Toronto and was particularly interested in purchasing the AntennasDirect DB-2 for indoor use. I know there are slew of antennas out there and I'm quite new to the game as i just purchased my first set of HDTV and really looking to make good use out of it (as i'm only using it as PC monitor at this time).


Could anyone give me some recommendations/suggestions etc on how i should go about this?


Thanks in advance!


-matt-


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *outkst012l* /forum/post/14651582
> 
> 
> I live in Toronto and was particularly interested in purchasing the AntennasDirect DB-2 for indoor use.



DB-2 is a UHF-only antenna, i.e., designed for channels 14 and up. It won't do a very good job on VHF channels, particularly 2-6. It is a lot stronger than the UHF loops found on set-top rabbit ears. Lots of posters here and elsewhere have tried a DB-2 indoors with some success, so it's certainly worth a try. Search for it under the Eagle Aspen and DirecTV brands: same antenna, lower price.


----------



## Kensmith48

I did a search and couldn't find any info on Terrestrial Digital Rotator #AR1. Anybody have any experience with this model?

I was looking into the CM 9521 but all the reviews I could find said to avoid it.


----------



## Symbios

I don't own one, but it'll be very similar to the CM9521. Both rely on timing to keep track of rotor position, so it will have the same sync issues the CM does.


As far as consumer level rotors go, I highly recommend the Eagle Aspen/Pro Brand ROTR100. It uses DiSEqC to keep track of rotor position, so it's always accurate. The rotor itself feels a little cheap, but it's been turning my 170" CM3671 every day for the last 4 months without a problem.


----------



## 300ohm

Heh, I have an Alliance rotor thats over 30 years old. Its never been accurate on positioning and Ive rebuilt it twice, but its still kicking.


If you need to point to only 2 directions, a better option is an A-B switch, with two downleads from each of the two antennas. Rotors at 1 rpm are painfully slow, and 30 seconds to go 180 degrees seems like a lifetime when you want to watch a specific program, heh.


----------



## cpcat

The one good thing about having analog channels is it gives you a reference to home in on and double check your rotator.


That will be a little different come Feb.







It will still be doable but not as quick and easy and I think the chance of error will probably be greater.


----------



## MikeBiker

I find that it much easier to align my antenna to the digital signals than it is to analog signals. My digital tuners have signal strength meters that make the job much easier.


----------



## 300ohm

True, without the signal meter on the TV, it would be very difficult. Ever since I learned about TVfool, I use my accurate compass and adjust the antenna to the magnetic headings. Perfect, heh.


----------



## Symbios

That's what makes having a rotor with an accurate tracking system so nice. If TV Fool says a transmitter is at 186°, I punch that number into my rotor controller and a couple seconds later, I have a picture. It's a beautiful thing...


----------



## Falcon_77

A brochure for the new designs can be found here:

http://www.channelmasterintl.com/doc...nas_200807.pdf 


Note that the 4228 advertises 7-69 reception now, though I have to wonder why they are still showing up to 69. Is it to be marketable in Canada? (granted we haven't quite dropped 52-69, yet).


Other new designs can be found in the terrestrial catalog:

http://www.channelmasterintl.com/doc...g_20080731.pdf 


I notice that they have some new combo (Advantage) designs in the above. However, they have 60" widths despite being labeled as 7-69. Are they trying to get FM with these as well?


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/14675203
> 
> 
> Note that the 4228 advertises 7-69 reception now, though I have to wonder why they are still showing up to 69. Is it to be marketable in Canada? (granted we haven't quite dropped 52-69, yet).



What about the low-power stations that can still broadcast in analog after 2/17/09? Can they still use 52-69 after the transition or would they have to move to a lower frequency?


Plus, some people may want to buy this to get stations that are 52-69 today. For example, our Fox affiliate is on RF 56 (moving back to 7 in February). If getting channel 56 was important to me until then, I'd want to know the antenna wasn't designed to result in a sharp dropoff in gain above 51.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MikeBiker* /forum/post/14673006
> 
> 
> I find that it much easier to align my antenna to the digital signals than it is to analog signals. My digital tuners have signal strength meters that make the job much easier.



What we need is digital signal meters with higher accuracy/granularity. I'll not lose sleep over it though and I won't hold my breath either.


----------



## 300ohm

Depending on the antenna of course, but most will be fine if youre 5 to 10 degrees off center.


----------



## cpcat

Not this one.


----------



## wildwillie6

Is there any reason to think the 4228HD is any different from, or better than, the classic 4228?


----------



## 300ohm

No, not that one, heh. Probably plus or minus 1 degree on that monster.


----------



## lovebohn




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wildwillie6* /forum/post/14679293
> 
> 
> Is there any reason to think the 4228HD is any different from, or better than, the classic 4228?



Thats my question, will replacing my old 4228 make a difference? I would guess not much.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/14675203
> 
> 
> I notice that they have some new combo (Advantage) designs in the above. However, they have 60" widths despite being labeled as 7-69. Are they trying to get FM with these as well?



Apparently, they are aiming for some FM performance on the new Advantage line. From CM:



> Quote:
> Mike, the new Advantage line does well on FM. Yes, for the time being, the website is just a PDF of the catalog.



I think this is a good move, but should be advertised.


----------



## maratb

Hi Guys,


I am looking to upgrade my old indoor Silver Sensor and I am looking for something that will better fit my locale. I am surrounded by several towers and I'd like to get something that would allow me to tune without turning the antenna.


Here's the TVFool analysis of my location:
 


Our house is on a steep hill (Twin Peaks, in San Francisco), facing south. I can mount the antenna outside on the south-facing wall of the house, but the strongest signal is coming from the north. However, even though I am less than a mile from the main SF Sutro tower, that tower is on the side of the hill and I have no line-of-sight to it.


Can anyone recommend an outdoor antenna for my situation? I was thinking about ClearStream 1 or 2, but I am not convinced it will work well in my location.


Oh, and I need to run about 50ft of cable from the antenna to the TV. Should I budget for an amp?


Thanks!


----------



## holl_ands

You can't use a Preamp or amplified antenna--it would be severely overloaded.

Indeed, that close to the transmitters, your DTV's tuner will probably be overloaded,

meaning sensitivity on certain weak channels will be degraded due to intermod products.


You might need to insert a variable RF attenuator:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/attenuator.html 


Since nearby stations are going to come in no matter what, point antenna toward

weakest desired signal (e.g. 120 or 169 degrees, depending on your preferences)

and rely on sidelobes for the rest.


Clearstream, 4-Bay or 2-Bay antennas are all good choices.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *maratb* /forum/post/14691861
> 
> 
> Our house is on a steep hill (Twin Peaks, in San Francisco), facing south. I can mount the antenna outside on the south-facing wall of the house, but the strongest signal is coming from the north. However, even though I am less than a mile from the main SF Sutro tower, that tower is on the side of the hill and I have no line-of-sight to it.



I would suggest re-posting this on the local thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...69015&page=150 


There is some excellent local help on that thread, but from what I know of the area, you may have problems with multi-path (so a more directional antenna may be needed). An attenuator could be helpful as well.


----------



## spokybob

Is anyone familiar with this antenna? I spotted 2 when driving in a rural area about 50 miles from the towers.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *spokybob* /forum/post/14695456
> 
> 
> Is anyone familiar with this antenna? I spotted 2 when driving in a rural area about 50 miles from the towers.




It appears to be this Philips antenna http://www.consumer.philips.com/cons...na+SDV7700K-17 I believe this is the antenna (or similar model) I've seen at Menards.


Steve


----------



## spokybob

Thanks Steve. I'll check it out.


----------



## bozey45

Antennas similar to this one were popular in the 70's; used to have one myself; it was called a "color wedge." I used mine for 27 years. Didn't even know a new version was made.


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bozey45* /forum/post/14698493
> 
> 
> Antennas similar to this one were popular in the 70's; used to have one myself; it was called a "color wedge." I used mine for 27 years. Didn't even know a new version was made.



I'd never heard of this one. The marketing sounds like hype: 140 miles for VHF and 80 miles for UHF? Even most of the deep fringe combo antennas I've seen claim only 100/60.


----------



## AntAltMike

The wedge VHF antennas weren't gimmicky antennas. They just got more gain with less boom-length, which is important for survivability in harsh weather environments.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bozey45* /forum/post/14698493
> 
> 
> Antennas similar to this one were popular in the 70's; used to have one myself; it was called a "color wedge." I used mine for 27 years. Didn't even know a new version was made.



Ive also been using it as long. I just rebuilt and reinforced mine to be used in February, as it is excellant for channel 6 and 12 which Ill need then. I believe mine was made by Channel Master.


IMO, the one in the picture above is either a Phillips Mant 901 or a Phillips sdv9011k_17 with some vhf elements missing.



> Quote:
> The wedge VHF antennas weren't gimmicky antennas. They just got more gain with less boom-length, which is important for survivability in harsh weather environments.



Yep. As long as they are built with quality materials and workmanship.


----------



## n8wci

In the early 70's, I installed probably a hundred of the CM 1251b's. It was a wedge U/V, but no "reflector" on the uhf as the one pictured. A very good antenna then.

Actually several are still standing, being guyed correctly, and eye hooks in the studs, not the roof sheeting as I have seen.

For some reason, my wife just doesn't see the beauty in an antenna that I installed nearly 40 years ago. Go figure, ha ha.


Steve


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> In the early 70's, I installed probably a hundred of the CM 1251b's. It was a wedge U/V, but no "reflector" on the uhf as the one pictured. A very good antenna then.



Thanks, Ive been looking for the model number of mine. I googled and came up with nada info or pictures of it, so I still dont know.


Did the CM 1251b have log periodic uhf elements on the boom ? Mine does. Of course the uhf section performs very poorly.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *n8wci* /forum/post/14701078
> 
> 
> For some reason, my wife just doesn't see the beauty in an antenna that I installed nearly 40 years ago. Go figure



My wife is just as pretty as she was 40 years ago.


Is that any better?


----------



## Dan Kolton

For your sake, I hope your wife doesn't see that post!


----------



## MAX HD

Yep,I think you need to exercise your option to delete that post.


----------



## n8wci

Yes the CM 1251b's had log periodics on the UHF boom, but no reflector. Our area was 20 miles from ABC,CBS,NBC,PBS, and a couple of locals, so it did well then.

My wife looks "better" than she did 40 years ago.....that's my story, and I'm stickin' with it(I know who I'm sleepin with guys!)


Steve


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Yes the CM 1251b's had log periodics on the UHF boom, but no reflector.



Yep, that must be the model I have then. Thanks.


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *n8wci* /forum/post/14706132
> 
> 
> My wife looks "better" than she did 40 years ago.....that's my story, and I'm stickin' with it(I know who I'm sleepin with guys!)



Same here. Especially since my wife was three months old 40 years ago!


----------



## schu132

I live in Reno,NV in an apartment with a first floor balcony. I am trying to receive ota channels 7, 9 and 13. I got a channel master 4228, but the best is about a 50% signal on channel 9, the others don't come in at all. uhf signals on 15 and 44 come in great. According to tvfool i'm 15.2 miles from the broadcast tower, but i don't have line of sight. I was thinking of trying am antennacraft Y5-7-13 but I think it might be to large for my balcony. I saw this the ez-hd antenna from dennysantennaservice.com

for 60 bucks.

Anyone have any thoughts on if this antenna will be able to pull in the vhf channels? Or another antenna i should look at.

thanks


----------



## schu132

I got a cm 4228 for uhf and vhf reception. I get a good signal for channels 14 and 44 but channels 7, 9 and 13 the best I can get is about 50% on channel 9. I've connected the panels with nylon cable ties. Would an amplifier help? I live in an apartment and don't have line of sight with the tower. was thinking about an antennacraft Y5-7-13 but think it might be to big.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *schu132* /forum/post/14718875
> 
> 
> I got a cm 4228 for uhf and vhf reception. I get a good signal for channels 14 and 44 but channels 7, 9 and 13 the best I can get is about 50% on channel 9. I've connected the panels with nylon cable ties. Would an amplifier help? I live in an apartment and don't have line of sight with the tower. was thinking about an antennacraft Y5-7-13 but think it might be to big.



From the other thread, you are in Reno. Which way do you have the 4228 pointed? It's not very directional for VHF, but 7, 9 & 13 are not broadcast from the same location as 44 or 15. Also, VHF signals don't do well near the ground.


I would suggest getting an upper VHF antenna, like the one you describe, point it towards Mt. Rose and join the two antennas by way of a UVSJ diplexer.


You may want to check out a TVFool.com plot, but note that it is not using the main KNPB facility.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *schu132* /forum/post/14718441
> 
> 
> I saw this the ez-hd antenna from dennysantennaservice.com
> 
> for 60 bucks.


 http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/...v_Antenna.html 


Interesting looking, but I expect your money would be better spent on the AntennaCraft:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=Y5-7-13 


See the other thread for additional comments.


The Ez-HD was designed to fit in a 1 meter circle. I find that interesting since, technically, that dimension only applies to satellite dishes and not antennas. Though some HOA's would undoubtedly read it the other way.


----------



## schu132

i have tried it in all directions, i get the best uhf reception from pointing it about mag 300deg using a compass I've tried pointing at 168 but no improvement. will the antennacraft yagi be effective with no los at 15 miles at ground level?


----------



## schu132

what kind of antenna is this http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/...v_Antenna.html 
http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/...nna_image.html 

is it a Log-Yag antenna? what kind of gain whould it get for vhf high? would it be comparable to an antennacraft Y5-7-13?


----------



## schu132

here is my tvfool plot
Attachment 120429 

I live in a ground level apartment with a balcony I don't think my landlord would let me put in anything bigger than my cm4228


----------



## 300ohm

Whew, thats a pretty tough situation. Your channels are spread 120 degrees apart, and youre on a ground level apartment, with maybe all kinds of reflections and blockages. I think the best thing would be to search for hot spots. Try many locations for the cm4228 antenna.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I saw this the ez-hd antenna from dennysantennaservice.com
> 
> for 60 bucks.



It looks almost like a cut down vhf-hi version of a local area antenna I have in my collection. The 75 mile range claim is bogus. The only way it has a 75 mile range is if a pair of rabbit ears has a 60 mile range, heh.


----------



## schu132

Sent an email to the site selling the ez-hd antenna and asked about vhf high gain. He replied "The EZ-HD has an average of 7.5 dB gain on VHF. To combine a VHF and UHF use a VHF/UHF signal coupler. This will result in much less signal loss." Does that sound about right? solidsignal has the AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 specs at "Gain VHF: 6.9 dB". Also What's the difference between UVSJ diplexer and a VHF/UHF signal coupler?


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *schu132* /forum/post/14720887
> 
> 
> "The EZ-HD has an average of 7.5 dB gain on VHF. To combine a VHF and UHF use a VHF/UHF signal coupler. This will result in much less signal loss." Does that sound about right? solidsignal has the AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 specs at "Gain VHF: 6.9 dB". Also What's the difference between UVSJ diplexer and a VHF/UHF signal coupler?



They are probably talking about the same thing. Here is an example. It's much better than using a splitter to combine antennas.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ 


The Ez-HD antenna gain is probably dBi if I had to guess (if it is accurate). This would mean 5.35dBd.


----------



## ctdish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *schu132* /forum/post/14718441
> 
> 
> I live in Reno,NV in an apartment with a first floor balcony. I am trying to receive ota channels 7, 9 and 13. Or another antenna i should look at.
> 
> thanks



At your distance I would give rabbit ears a try for VHF.


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *schu132* /forum/post/14719455
> 
> 
> what kind of antenna is this http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/...v_Antenna.html
> http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/...nna_image.html
> 
> is it a Log-Yag antenna? what kind of gain whould it get for vhf high? would it be comparable to an antennacraft Y5-7-13?



It appears to be a two element VHF "log periodic" (not sure you can really call it that with only two elements!) with two VHF directors (no reflector). The UHF part also appears to be a yagi with folded-dipole driven element, but the first director is something odd -- it's split like a driven element would be, but not driven.


The whole antenna seems to be based on a false premise -- for TV, there's no need for the antenna to fit within a 1m circle. You can use as big an antenna as you need and you're still within the OTARD.


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/14723840
> 
> 
> You can use as big an antenna as you need and you're still within the OTARD.



It all depends: OTARD precludes HOAs from being so restrictive that it's tough to get "acceptable" local signals. It contains no definition of the words acceptable and local, but IMO most people would consider digital signals with no drop-outs, or very rare drop-outs, to be acceptable. The best yardstick for determining what stations are "local" would be those falling within the must-carry rules pertaining to cable operators.


The size of the antenna needed to achieve this standard varies with distance from the transmitters, of course. Thus, an HOA within a few miles of all local transmitters would have wider latitude in limiting antenna size than one dozens of miles away.


An HOA still has the power to prohibit antenna systems plainly designed to pick up more than just local stations: The guy with a multiple-antenna array atop a 60-foot tower is clearly a DXer, and so his gear would not be protected under OTARD.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/14724245
> 
> 
> The guy with a multiple-antenna array atop a 60-foot tower is clearly a DXer, and so his gear would not be protected under OTARD.



How about if he puts a big green mirror ball on top of it and calls it a lawn ornament?


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/14724513
> 
> 
> How about if he puts a big green mirror ball on top of it and calls it a lawn ornament?



Works for me!










If only....


----------



## EscapeVelocity

That "wedge VHF" combo antenna is neat!


----------



## spokybob




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *spokybob* /forum/post/14695456
> 
> 
> Is anyone familiar with this antenna? I spotted 2 when driving in a rural area about 50 miles from the towers.



Thank you Goldrich: I drove over to Muscatine IA last evening, (for a delicious sundae at Culvers). The new Menards store has one displayed. Yep its the one in the pic. Their stock #3553600. The young man responded that a customer was very pleased with it. Menards is sold out and he _thinks_ they will not restock this part number. He also thinks Phillips will make or might make a smaller but similar design. The price tag said $55.


----------



## Neil L

Lowe's carries a Phillips branded antenna that looks just like that wedge shaped thing. Price at $129 IIRC (been several weeks since I saw one in the store).


BTW, I've been seeing several around my area. Probably because it is just about the only thing other than Radio Shack one can purchase locally.


What is the design goal with the wedge shape? Does it offer any advantages over the usual log periodic array?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/14734094
> 
> 
> What is the design goal with the wedge shape?
> 
> Does it offer any advantages over the usual log periodic array?



Same question was answered in this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=14731809


----------



## schu132




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *schu132* /forum/post/14719477
> 
> 
> here is my tvfool plot
> Attachment 120429
> 
> I live in a ground level apartment with a balcony I don't think my landlord would let me put in anything bigger than my cm4228



I think I'll get the Antennacraft Y5-7-13. How effective would it be for VHF high without line of sight to the tower? I would mount it outside on a balcony about 7 feet off the ground with a very short coax run.

thanks


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/14734655
> 
> 
> Same question was answered in this thread:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=14731809



Thanks for the link. I would have never thought to look in the "How to build a UHF antenna" thread for info on this antenna.


----------



## PA_MainyYak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *schu132* /forum/post/14737268
> 
> 
> I think I'll get the Antennacraft Y5-7-13. How effective would it be for VHF high without line of sight to the tower? I would mount it outside on a balcony about 7 feet off the ground with a very short coax run.
> 
> thanks



Go to TV Fool and run the signal tool using your address or GPS coordinates. This will provide you with the information you seek.


----------



## jstachowiak

Hi, hope someone can help.


Di* Network HD receiver, two flat screens, 13.5 miles from antenna farm all in the same direction and all UHF except two, ABC and NBC in flat Jacksonville, FL. DB2 UHF antenna in attic about 18 feet above ground with splitter and two 50 foot RG6 cable runs to each TV.


All UHF stations come in 93 to 100%. I pick up each VHF at 63 to 68% and they drop occasionally.


When I disconnect the splitter and connect the antenna directly to one TV I lose the VHF signals. It appears the splitter improves the VHF reception.


I would like to improve the VHF reception and get it to 80%, what can I do? Will a DB4 improve the signal or should I venture into VHF/UHF antenna territory with a 80" Rat Shack antenna they have down the street?


Note I bought the Terk HDTVo antenna and it did not pick up the VHF at all and the UHF signals were 75%, terrible antenna.










Mystifying.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jstachowiak* /forum/post/14765252
> 
> 
> should I venture into VHF/UHF antenna territory



Well, there is no better way to receive VHF signals than with a VHF antenna. What are the VHF channels? Will they still be VHF next year?


----------



## jstachowiak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Neil L* /forum/post/14765682
> 
> 
> Well, there is no better way to receive VHF signals than with a VHF antenna. What are the VHF channels? Will they still be VHF next year?



Except when it is a Terk HDTVo which doesn't pick up VHF at all.


No news on whether they will change over to UHF, both are owned by same station, one is ABC one is NBC.


Why would the splitter improve the VHF reception? Does the RG6 cable act like an antenna for the VHF signal? It defys everything I have read on these and other forums.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jstachowiak* /forum/post/14765252
> 
> 
> --13.5 miles from antenna farm--
> 
> When I disconnect the splitter and connect the antenna directly to one TV I lose the VHF signals. It appears the splitter improves the VHF reception.



When you remove the splitter you are removing the splitter loss and sending a stronger signal to the single set. Since you are so close to the transmitter you might be overloading the tuner. Try an attenuator in the coax line. If you can somehow borrow a signal level meter, the signal should be between -15 dBmV and +15 dBmV:
www.sencore.com/uploads/files/AchieveGoodHDTV.pdf 

If the attenuator helps, you might end up needing a UHF antenna and a VHF antenna with a UHF/VHF combiner (UVSJ) with an attenuator in the VHF line to balance the signal levels and keep them in the optimum range. If you could post your situation from tvfool.com both for now and after the transition we would have a better idea of the signal levels at your location. Select the save option at tvfool to get the results all on one page for each and make them attachments to your post.


----------



## dagger666

*can't they make 1 antenna that does the work for all of these.* Ha Ha honeymooners.


You know for a sports writer Ray Barone had a rotten TV in his living room.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dagger666* /forum/post/14766393
> 
> *can't they make 1 antenna that does the work for all of these.*



Yeah, that would be nice. Unfortunately we are finding out what the British have learned: digital TV is not as easy to receive as has been advertised:
www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttcon.html


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/14766290
> 
> 
> .....you might be overloading the tuner. Try an attenuator in the coax line.



Or better yet, if you are really close to any FM stations; you may just need an FM trap. Strong FM can wreak havoc on VHF reception; and even UHF if strong enough.


What is your zip code?


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jstachowiak* /forum/post/14765793
> 
> 
> No news on whether they will change over to UHF, both are owned by same station, one is ABC one is NBC.



The ABC is analog 25, digital 10 and the NBC is analog 12, digital 13. Both will remain on their current digital channels after analog shutdown. You'll also have PBS which is currently analog 7, digital 38, which will move digital to 7 after analog shutdown.


----------



## jstachowiak

Zip code is 32259.


I'm going to try the Terk HDTVo again just to make sure it does not work. I've now got two of them as I was going to put one with each TV instead of splitting the signal. Maybe the first one is defective.


Thanks for the help.


Trial and error with some expert guideance. Thanks.


----------



## jstachowiak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/14766630
> 
> 
> The ABC is analog 25, digital 10 and the NBC is analog 12, digital 13. Both will remain on their current digital channels after analog shutdown. You'll also have PBS which is currently analog 7, digital 38, which will move digital to 7 after analog shutdown.



So neither NBC or ABC in Jacksonville will move to UHF and will remain VHF Digital?


----------



## jtbell

Yes, they will both remain on VHF.


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jstachowiak* /forum/post/14767704
> 
> 
> I'm going to try the Terk HDTVo again



It's probably not going to work, unless there is some way to turn it's amplifier off (without just removing power, which would be the same as disconnecting the antenna completely). You don't need an amplified antenna, just a small VHF-hi antenna.


----------



## tyromark

Could you return those Terk HDTVa antennas and exchange for the non-amplified HDTVi version? I set up my sister at The Beaches area, 32266, with a Terk HDTVi in a very disadvantageous place (right on the floor, pointed through the neighbor's house toward the antenna farm 10 miles away) and it brings in the OTA digitals pretty well.


----------



## Falcon_77

Try diplexing in a pair of rabbit ears for VHF using a UVSJ. It's cheap to try and may be all you need for VHF.


If that doesn't work and you want a combo antenna for both upper VHF and UHF, something simple like the CM2016 should work:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=CM2016


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/14766494
> 
> 
> Yeah, that would be nice. Unfortunately we are finding out what the British have learned: digital TV is not as easy to receive as has been advertised:
> www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttcon.html



And the UK only has to deal with UHF. However, DVB-T seems to have impulse noise problems, even on UHF. ATSC handles impulse noise better (very few problems on UHF), but it will be interesting to see what happens for stations moving back to upper VHF. I can see plenty of noise on 7-13 at times (and I will have 4 DTV stations there next year), but it looks pristine next to Low-VHF.



> Quote:
> The second was just how much impulse interference there was out there, and how maddening the effect was going to be on the DTT signal. Impulse interference is what you get when you turn off a light switch, your boiler cuts in, you neighbour uses his electric lawnmower or the kid across the street fires up his cheap motorbike. All of these have the power to give you a half-second sound and vision freeze on DTT, where on analogue they gave you a fleeting bright horizontal line on a frame or so.


----------



## Kelson

Can someone (or several) answer a question for me. Is there such a thing as "too strong a digital signal". There is some discussion going on in another AVS forum topic in which some people are seeing poor reception of a channel. They are then reporting that if they put an attenuator on the coax (i.e. using one leg of a simple splitter) or in some cases unscrew the coax so the cable is barely seated, they see a marked improvement in that channels reception (often at the expense of another channel). This doesn't sound right to me so I would appreciate some informed input. Thanks . . .


----------



## Splicer010

Yes...One can 'overdrive' a receivers input and get a poor...if any...picture...This is just as bad as no reception at all...


If someone must unscrew the cable fitting leaving only the stinger in the TV...they have other problems and the temporary 'fix' I can guarantee will be short lived...


----------



## jstachowiak

I just ordered two inline FM traps, we'll see if that does anything. All other traps come with an amplifier which I don't need.


The Terk HDTVo comes with an amplifier and the amplifier does have an On/Off switch which made no difference in the signal. There was also no difference in whether the amp was hooked up or not.


So far I've been maintaining the VHF signals with an occasional drop here and there, but liveable. I'll let you know if the traps work at all.


Thanks for the help.


----------



## electrictroy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/13898183
> 
> 
> 2 - Antenna's Direct 91XG's
> 
> 1 - Wineguard High Bander



Troy jealous.


Troy want.


;-) - So what's the advantage of placing two 91XG's side-by-side like that? Does it narrow the beam? Or just increase the power? (Also what's a High Bander?)


----------



## Splicer010

 http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-HD-10.../dp/B001DFTGQU


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jstachowiak* /forum/post/14770376
> 
> 
> I just ordered two inline FM traps, we'll see if that does anything. All other traps come with an amplifier which I don't need.



A single _HLSJ_ will be much more effective than 2 FM traps if you won't be needing any VHF-LO (Channels 2-6)


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/14770653
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-HD-10.../dp/B001DFTGQU



That's just bad marketing by Winegard. The Winegard HD-1080 is poor performer for 7-13, but it is decent for UHF. Rabbit ears are probably better for VHF.


An often referenced and recommended "high-bander" (7-13 antenna) is the YA-1713. I have one on each coast.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=YA1713 


I wish solid-signal would show an accurate picture for it, however. This is what it looks like:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w1713.html


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/14770666
> 
> 
> A single _HLSJ_ will be much more effective than 2 FM traps if you won't be needing any VHF-LO (Channels 2-6)



Yes, these are very effective and very inexpensive:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=HLSJ 


Just terminate the "Lo" side.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/14766503
> 
> 
> Or better yet, if you are really close to any FM stations; you may just need an FM trap. Strong FM can wreak havoc on VHF reception; and even UHF if strong enough.
> 
> 
> What is your zip code?



fmfool.com shows some very strong signals:
Attachment 121031


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jstachowiak* /forum/post/14767704
> 
> 
> Zip code is 32259.



DTV signals now:
Attachment 121032 

DTV signals after transition:
Attachment 121033


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/14771875
> 
> 
> fmfool.com shows some very strong signals:
> Attachment 121031



One of the strongest signals in that table is at 89.9 MHz. Most FM traps attenuate about 93-108 MHz, so unless it is one of the less common variety, it will not attenuate that signal at all.


----------



## jstachowiak

Spec says 88 to 108, we'll see. Yes public TV and FM is very strong signal. Go figure, publc TV has better signal than big networks.


----------



## jstachowiak

FM Trap Filter spec:

• 5~890 MHz Bandwidth

• 88~108 MHz Notch Filter

• Insertion Loss: -20dB FM, -0.3dB VHF, -0.5dB UHF

• 75Ω F-Type Female × 2 (Input & Output)

• DC Power Pass


----------



## jstachowiak

 http://www.rackmount-devices.com/015-4252.html


----------



## jstachowiak

one other thing I forgot to add, I have 50 feet of RG-6 cable running from each TV to the splitter and about 3 feet from the splitter to the Antenna. When I mounted the antenna on a horizontal piece of truss support in my attic and had the cables kind of tangled up really did not notice it. When tinkering with the antenna aim I decided to untangle the cables and make sure none were crossing each other, signal seemed to improve with that untangling.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/14770865
> 
> 
> That's just bad marketing by Winegard. The Winegard HD-1080 is poor performer for 7-13,



My neighbor just installed the Winegard HD-1080 about 35 feet AGL. It is a _very poor_ performer on VHF(It barely picks up DTV Channel 8 @ only 6 miles away). The UHF is not much better. It only picks up 1 Baltimore DTV UHF station.(1000 kw @ 40 miles away) It doesn't even come close to the performance of the Winegard Ghost Killer antenna that I used to use; right next door.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/14772124
> 
> 
> One of the strongest signals in that table is at 89.9 MHz. Most FM traps attenuate about 93-108 MHz, so unless it is one of the less common variety, it will not attenuate that signal at all.



I have a Radio Shack FM trap that looks just like one of those common varieties. It doesn't work near as well as the HLSJ on the lower part of the FM band. Just 1 HLSJ does the trick even with this much FM.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/14773289
> 
> 
> I have a Radio Shack FM trap that looks just like one of those common varieties. It doesn't work near as well as the HLSJ on the lower part of the FM band. Just 1 HLSJ does the trick even with this much FM.



I did some testing with an RS FM trap (it looks just like the link above) vs. the HLSJ and found the RS to be much less effective throughout the FM band. The HLSJ was much better at putting the weaker stations beyond my receiver's threshold (by about 10dB). The strongest FM signal I have is -41dBm, according to FM Fool, but I use the built-in FM trap on the 7777 anyway. I now remember that I had problems w/o the trap switched in.


----------



## electrictroy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/14770865
> 
> 
> An often referenced and recommended "high-bander" (7-13 antenna) is the YA-1713. I have one on each coast.



What's a good antenna for receiving channel 6?


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/13903490
> 
> 
> I continue to question the value of putting out new designs for UHF 69.



There are still stations broadcasting on channels 52-69 on the low-power licenses, and also in Canada and Mexico with full-power licenses.


.


----------



## jstachowiak












On the HLSJ you connect the antenna lead to the combined side and the TV lead to the VHF High side and then it filters out the low VHF stations and all FM? Essentially hooked up backwards?


Jeff


----------



## ziggy29

With all the discussion about FM traps -- how do you know if using one will help your reception? I don't *think* I see any need for one in my setup, but I want to make sure I'm not compromising signal quality by not using one. Does it depend on what RF channels I'm trying to get (assuming VHF is more affected)?


My FMFool results show the strongest FM signals are -37 dBm to -41 dBm for what it's worth. Many of the FM stations clustered in the direction the antennas are facing are in the -73 to -76 range, which I doubt are causing too much trouble.


----------



## jstachowiak

At about $3 each I feel it is worth the try to see if anything improves. What ever the results I will report such here. The beauty of the Satellite receivers is they have a % meter of signal strength so I will see immediately if there is any improvement. As well, NBC channel 13 on the VHF band is the problem station that drops sometimes and has audio drops.


I'll let you know.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jstachowiak* /forum/post/14775423
> 
> 
> On the HLSJ you connect the antenna lead to the combined side and the TV lead to the VHF High side and then it filters out the low VHF stations and all FM? Essentially hooked up backwards?



Connect an upper VHF antenna to the "HI" side and run the line output to the VHF side of a UVSJ to combine with your UHF antenna (UHF side). Then run the UVSJ line to the TV, etc.


If the HLSJ passes UHF on the high-side as well it would be simpler, but I don't remember trying that. Can someone confirm? I can test tonight if not.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *electrictroy* /forum/post/14775242
> 
> 
> What's a good antenna for receiving channel 6?



I use this one.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=Y5-2-6 


It is ok and it fits in my attic. Certainly much better than rabbit ears, especially for 2-4 where many rabbit ears are too short to receive properly.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *electrictroy* /forum/post/14775242
> 
> 
> What's a good antenna for receiving channel 6? There are still stations broadcasting on channels 52-69 on the low-power licenses, and also in Canada and Mexico with full-power licenses.
> 
> 
> .



Yeah, but they too will be going away in about 2011. There's probably enough old stock to cover that demand until then. I think if they were smart, they would release optimized designs for the new band now.


On Ken Nists site, comparing some commercially available antennas, the Winegard YA-1026 (probably superceded by now) shows the highest net gain for channel 6.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jstachowiak* /forum/post/14775423
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the HLSJ you connect the antenna lead to the combined side and the TV lead to the VHF High side and then it filters out the low VHF stations and all FM? Essentially hooked up backwards?
> 
> 
> Jeff



Ive tried it both ways. With a marginal signal; the best results are obtained with the antenna hooked to the "HI" and the TV hooked to the "OUT/IN" terminal. Terminating the unused "LO" didn't seem to make a difference; but I always do it anyway.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/14776875
> 
> 
> If the HLSJ passes UHF on the high-side as well it would be simpler, but I don't remember trying that. Can someone confirm? I can test tonight if not.



The HLSJ passes UHF on the "HI" side only up to 600 MHZ.(According to the specs from Holland) That's not high enough to get all of the channels you'll need. Channel 52 is already somewhere in the 700 MHZ frequencies.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/14776892
> 
> 
> I use this one.
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=Y5-2-6
> 
> 
> It is ok and it fits in my attic. Certainly much better than rabbit ears, especially for 2-4 where many rabbit ears are too short to receive properly.



Interesting page there on the link.


Tell me, are you able to receive UHF channels from 80 miles on this Lowband VHF antenna like the page indicates?


----------



## jstachowiak

My original problem is that I do not have a VHF antenna and I'm picking up VHF on a DB2 UHF antenna. What I am trying to do now is improve that signal. So I am guessing that the FM traps are my best bet at this point.


I'll try both but I don't want to do anything to my UHF signal which is 100% presently.


Jeff


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/14778314
> 
> 
> Tell me, are you able to receive UHF channels from 80 miles on this Lowband VHF antenna like the page indicates?



I can try it for laughs, out to 51 miles. I might get a couple. I sent them a note to fix this. I didn't even see that before, but then I usually don't bother looking at range figures.


----------



## jstachowiak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/14778089
> 
> 
> Ive tried it both ways. With a marginal signal; the best results are obtained with the antenna hooked to the "HI" and the TV hooked to the "OUT/IN" terminal. Terminating the unused "LO" didn't seem to make a difference; but I always do it anyway.



How do you terminate the unused LO side?


Jeff


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jstachowiak* /forum/post/14779976
> 
> 
> How do you terminate the unused LO side?



With one of these .


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> My FMFool results show the strongest FM signals are -37 dBm to -41 dBm for what it's worth. Many of the FM stations clustered in the direction the antennas are facing are in the -73 to -76 range, which I doubt are causing too much trouble



I would say youre fine without an FM trap. Unlike me, I have a powerful FM station less than a mile away. Fortunately, its 90 degrees from my main group of TV stations I want. Decades ago, it used to cause me problems I couldnt even get rid of with special traps, but they seemed to have done something and I dont get much interference from it anymore.



> Quote:
> My original problem is that I do not have a VHF antenna and I'm picking up VHF on a DB2 UHF antenna. What I am trying to do now is improve that signal. So I am guessing that the FM traps are my best bet at this point.



One possible way of increasing the VHF gain on the DB2 is to put a large reflector on it. Try attaching a 20 inch high by 40 inch wide reflector onto the existing one.


----------



## vickyg2003

Can someone give me an idea of what antenna I should buy?

I'm moving to Troy, MI next week, from IL and I'm going to need to put up an antenna in the attic.


I've been trying to find which Antenna to buy. I've talked to people in the area, but nobody is using OTA signals. It looks like my channels are going to be in many directions. according to AntennaWeb.ORG




direction, distance, color, uhf/vhf network

184 11.4, yellow UHF MNT

131 19 blue UHF ION

206 10.4 yellow UHF ABC

194 9.1 yellow UHF NBC

184 10.6 yellow UHF CBS

184 10.6 yellow UHF FOX

184 10.6 yellow Vhf FOX 7 POST TRANSITION!!!

223 11 yellow UHF CW

184 11.4 yellow UHF PBS DETROIT


I'd really miss my Ion or my CW, if I had to do without them.


So what do I do for an antenna when everything is going in multiple directions like this?


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/14780331
> 
> 
> With one of these .



Is that better than the ones that are found in local stores such as Fry's where I can get several for cheap? The ones are use look like these:

http://www.smarthome.com/7808/75-Ohm...20-Pack/p.aspx


----------



## Falcon_77

I ran some tests with my Tru-Spec HLSJ last night.


The executive summary is that the HLSJ had a negligible affect on UHF performance when UHF was connected to the "HI" side. In other words, it should work for a VHF/UHF combo when Lo-VHF and FM aren't desired.


Attached are the test results along with other tests I did for fun.


1) Normal reception: 4228 & 1713/5-2-6 (HLSJ) into a 7777, UHF and VHF respectively.

2) 4228 into "HI" on the HLSJ and into UHF on the 7777

3) Y5-2-6 directly into the UHF side of the 7777 - out of band galore, read: diplexers are needed

4) YA1713 directly into the UHF side of the 7777 - some out of band, but not nearly as much

5) Y5-2-6 into the "HI" side of the HLSJ and then into VHF. I am questioning the AGC results on the analog side as the picture quality suffered greatly when I did this, but the AGC didn't move much.


The 2nd column was me forgetting to plug the PIM back in after round 1. It gives one an idea just how much the signal is attenuated with an un-powered pre-amp. It is otherwise the same physical set-up as 2.

 

HLSJ-Tests.pdf 28.587890625k . file


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vickyg2003* /forum/post/14787834
> 
> 
> I'd really miss my Ion or my CW, if I had to do without them.
> 
> 
> So what do I do for an antenna when everything is going in multiple directions like this?



Would you be satisfied with just getting the Detroit stations? If not, you will want to invest in a rotor.


Also, while WPXD (ion) is currently non-co-located, they have a petition to move closer to Detroit (appears the be on the WKBD tower, if granted). WKBD (CW) also has an application pending for more power with a non-directional pattern. They currently have 59kW with a directional pattern.


UHF stations should be relatively easy unless you want to try markets other than Detroit. However, with WJBK going to VHF 7, it could be a bit problematic. I think I would go with a CM4221 for an attic install, but you will probably need to add a VHF antenna down the road. I think the larger CM4228, while it does a better job for upper VHF, is going to be too directional. Even the co-located Detroit stations are about 7 miles apart and you are close.


----------



## AntAltMike

Tonight, I compared UHF losses incurred through a cheapo "Tru Spec HLSJ" an a Blonder Tongue vertical port, very expensive, solder backed U/V diplexer, using an eighteen channel balanced headend that I had constricuted as asignal source, and using a Blonder Tongue BTDPA-4 meter which resolves to a tenth of a dB.


The tru spec lost an average of about half a dB more than the Blonder Tongue but it varied throughout the band. Strangely, they both lost the same amount on channel 59, but the Tru Spec lost about a dB and a half more at channel 50.


I think nothing about the extra dB of UHF loss that I MIGHT incur with the dime store HLSJ diplexer bersus a pricey Blonder Tongue UVSJ. A lot of you don't understand how finicky RF signals are. I could take another unit of the same Tru Spec HLSJ and the frequencies at which it matched the performance of the Blonder Tongue UVSJ and the frequencies at which it lost a dB or two more would differ.


----------



## ThoraX695

Were there any significant improvements in signal quality by using the HLSJ to filter out Low-VHF through FM? I'm assuming you had the FM trap on the CM7777 set to "out" when you ran your tests too.


----------



## paris_tn




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/14776892
> 
> 
> I use this one.
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=Y5-2-6
> 
> 
> It is ok and it fits in my attic. Certainly much better than rabbit ears, especially for 2-4 where many rabbit ears are too short to receive properly.



What kind of range are you getting for low vhf with your AntennaCraft Y5-2-6?


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ThoraX695* /forum/post/14790166
> 
> 
> Were there any significant improvements in signal quality by using the HLSJ to filter out Low-VHF through FM? I'm assuming you had the FM trap on the CM7777 set to "out" when you ran your tests too.



I have the CM7777 set to separate VHF and UHF inputs right now, so no I didn't experiment with the FM trap. I was only testing the UHF loss through the HLSJ.


I will try to find time to do this over the weekend (set it to combined and try w/ and w/o the FM trap).


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paris_tn* /forum/post/14790385
> 
> 
> What kind of range are you getting for low vhf with your AntennaCraft Y5-2-6?



51 miles is the distance to all the local stations. I don't have any stations beyond that range that I can realistically acquire (outside of the LA area). However, as the Low-VHF locals are analog, it is hard to say how effective it would be for DTV. It might work, but I would expect quite a few drop-outs considering the frequency of visible noise on analog.


----------



## gcd0865

vickyg2003:


I'm in the same area, with a CM4228 on a rotor in my attic. All of the Detroit digital stations except for Ion (and an independent 38.1/39 that you didn't mention) come in just fine with the 4228 pointed in a generally south-southwest direction. Since analog 7 (ABC) comes in perfectly with the 4228, I'd expect digital Fox 7 (starting next Feb.) to be fine also.


Ion has two stations in our area - 31 analog from Ann Arbor (will become 33 digital) and a low-power 48 analog translator from the east side of Detroit. Both come in about a 7 out of 10 for me in analog when I rotate the antenna accordingly, but neither is very good when the antenna is pointed toward the other Detroit stations. I haven't seen either of these stations in digital yet - they might not yet be on in digital form (I haven't really searched for their digital channels yet). If 31/33 moves closer to the other Detroit towers, then no problem there. If not, you'd need either a rotor or a second fixed antenna pointed toward Ion, connected by a Jointenna. 38.1/39 is also over on the east side of town, so you'd probably need a rotor or yet another antenna (like a 4221) on a Jointenna if you wanted that one.


Assuming that a 4228 would fit through your attic opening, I would recommend it over the 4221 because it is good for VHF-high (7-13) as well, whereas the 4221 is not. Also, the extra gain of the 4228 over the 4221 is better for Ion, at least in analog right now.


Also, when rotating the antenna to the northwest, my 4228 also gets 28.1/52 (PBS) Flint perfectly all the time, and 5.1/22 (CBS) Bay City, 12.1/36 (ABC) Flint, 25.1/30 (NBC) Saginaw, and occasionally 66.1/16 (Fox) Flint, better at night, not so great in the daytime. The 4228 will also occasionally pick up one or two Toledo digital stations late at night, which for me are exactly in-line with the Detroit towers.


I also have a separate VHF antenna ready for after next Feb. 17, when all the channel changes are made (Flint 12.1/36 goes back to 12 and Toledo 11.1 and 13.1 go back to 11 and 13); then, we'll have a better idea of what will come in permanently around here.


Hope this is helpful...


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I think nothing about the extra dB of UHF loss that I MIGHT incur with the dime store HLSJ diplexer bersus a pricey Blonder Tongue UVSJ. A lot of you don't understand how finicky RF signals are. I could take another unit of the same Tru Spec HLSJ and the frequencies at which it matched the performance of the Blonder Tongue UVSJ and the frequencies at which it lost a dB or two more would differ.



Yes, high frequency RF signals are very finicky, and your analysis shows how important it is for factories to test stuff before sending it out. The main problem with the cheap stuff is that it isnt tested/inspected, so results will vary with each unit.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14793082
> 
> 
> ...The main problem with the cheap stuff is that it isnt tested/inspected, so results will vary with each unit.



But that variation isn't a "problem" for the applications that most professionals use them in. Holland, Pico and Blonder Tongue are not marketing to hobbiests. They have been selling to commercial antenna service companies, and we rarely care about the slight variation in frequency response found in the cheaper products, which is why almost none of us buy Blonder Tongue or Scientific Atlanta.


But while I'm at it, I will reiterate for those who may have missed it several pages ago in this thread, there is no reason whatsoever for anyone to believe or even suspect that a Holland combiner with a sales literature insertion loss figure of 0.7 dB has any more loss than the Pico or Tru Spec component with a published loss figure of 0.5 dB. These are not laboratory figures. They are not engineering figures. They are sales literature figures that give a system designer a rough idea how to ballpark the likely loss incurred by working them into a system. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the Pico and Holland HLSJs come off the same production line and just have different brand labels stuck on them.


----------



## Digital Rules

The "Holland" HLSJ specs list the limit as 600 MHZ for the "HI" output. Do you know if this is correct, or is it OK for use up to UHF channel 69?


Thanks, Glen


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/14794384
> 
> 
> The "Holland" HLSJ specs list the limit as 600 MHZ for the "HI" output. Do you know if this is correct, or is it OK for use up to UHF channel 69?



I didn't have any problems with the Pico Macom Tru-Spec (see the above results). I thought my HLSJ was a Holland like my UVSJ's, but it is not. If someone can re-run for a Holland I would be curious to see if the results are any different.


----------



## AntAltMike

I don 't have any Holland HLSJs to test and I only buy from Holland maybe once a year because they are on the opposite coast and I can buy similar products on the easy coast with ground arriving the next day, but if anyone puts one in an envelope and sends it to me, I'll test it for them using my cable TV spectrum as a signal source.


----------



## jstachowiak

I bought a set of $7.99 rabbit ears to put in the attic with an RS $15 Gold VHF/UHF combiner. I connected the rabbit ears first without the combiner and found out the reception was the same as the DB2 UHF antenna, UHF stations came in great VHF only so, so at about 63% on the Dish box indicator. When I combined the two with the RS combiner signal dropped off significantly on both UHF and VHF, VHF would not come in at all. I tried a plain old splitter and it worked better but still not great. So RS combiner is worthless.










In looking at this guys website http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html about aiming rabbit ears and antenna reflectors I made an aluminum foil reflector out of the DB2 box and placed it behind the DB2 antenna about 28 inches behind the bow tie on the DB2 antenna. Signal improved to about 70% on the VHF side. With no drops so far.










Rabbit ears are set up horizontal at 28" in length tip to tip to pick up channels 10 and 13 (12.1) per Kyes website. I tried several other configurations and this works best.


I should get the FM trap today in the mail so we'll see if that does anything. I won't get the HLSJ till next week.


If that doesn't work I guess I will try an amplifier to improve the VHF side.


----------



## Digital Rules

The item you bought at Radio Shack is really just a _conventional_ 2-way spliiter/combiner. You really need a _UVSJ_ combiner.(and only about 4.00 plus shipping)


----------



## jstachowiak

FM Traps, HLSJ's both ruin the VHF signals. I got two of each and tried them all in every combination and they filter out the VHF signal all together.


The $7.99 rabbit ears (in the attic set at horizontal at 28" tip to tip) with no UHF side at all and no filters picks up everything better than the DB2. I just cannot split the signal.


So I'll return the RS combiner and get another set of rabbit ears for the other TV and that should solve my problems.


About $120 invested when all I needed was two rabbit ears for $16 total.










Rabbit ears beats out the DB2 ($40) and the Terk HDTVo ($80).


Go figure.


----------



## jstachowiak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/14799365
> 
> 
> The item you bought at Radio Shack is really just a _conventional_ 2-way spliiter/combiner. You really need a _UVSJ_ combiner.(and only about 4.00 plus shipping)



I would agree but some old splitters I have work, this RS combiner does not.


----------



## ThoraX695




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/14792357
> 
> 
> I have the CM7777 set to separate VHF and UHF inputs right now, so no I didn't experiment with the FM trap. I was only testing the UHF loss through the HLSJ.
> 
> 
> I will try to find time to do this over the weekend (set it to combined and try w/ and w/o the FM trap).



OK. I remember reading somewhere that someone suggested that an HLSJ be used to filter out both Low-VHF and FM in order to reduce interference to (at least) High-VHF. Your initial tests didn't seem to improve (or impact) the quality of the UHF signals. It's unfortunate that you don't have any stations broadcasting on High-VHF.


----------



## jstachowiak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ThoraX695* /forum/post/14799716
> 
> 
> OK. I remember reading somewhere that someone suggested that an HLSJ be used to filter out both Low-VHF and FM in order to reduce interference to (at least) High-VHF. Your initial tests didn't seem to improve (or impact) the quality of the UHF signals. It's unfortunate that you don't have any stations broadcasting on High-VHF.



I do, both NBC channel 13 DT and ABC channel 10 DT are hi VHF. We have no VHF stations below channel 10.


I returned the RS combiner and got the $11.99 UHF/VHF rabbit ears and they are now in the attic with no filters and the VHF signal is 75% the highest I've been able to get. UHF dropped to 80% to 90% from 100% but there is no pixelation. We'll see how it reads tonite. Signals seem better in the evenings.


----------



## jstachowiak

Channel 13 NBC DT signal read 81-83% tonite, channel 10 ABC read 93% on the RS $11.99 rabbit ears in the attic.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ThoraX695* /forum/post/14799716
> 
> 
> OK. I remember reading somewhere that someone suggested that an HLSJ be used to filter out both Low-VHF and FM in order to reduce interference to (at least) High-VHF. Your initial tests didn't seem to improve (or impact) the quality of the UHF signals. It's unfortunate that you don't have any stations broadcasting on High-VHF.



We do have 4 analog locals on 7-13 and they work just fine going through the HI side of the HLSJ. I was trying to see if the same HLSJ could be used in a upper VHF/UHF combo system (and not significantly degrade UHF) and the answer, in my case, was yes.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/14803780
> 
> 
> I was trying to see if the same HLSJ could be used in a upper VHF/UHF combo system (and not significantly degrade UHF) and the answer, in my case, was yes.



Falcon 77,


My testing yielded the same results as yours. I just tried the Pico HLSJ with an _extremely_ weak analog channel 68; and there is _no_ UHF degredation whatsoever using the HI output.


----------



## jstachowiak

One more experiment. I added the UHF DB2 antenna to the RS rabbit ears with a Belkin garden variety splitter and the UHF signals are now back to where they were when the UHF DB2 antenna was alone but my rabbit ears VHF signals are all the same at 80+%. No filters or HLSJ involved.


Jeff


----------



## ThoraX695

Oops. I meant to say "It's unfortunate that you don't have any stations broadcasting *digitally* on High-VHF." (Unless your analog tuner can give you a quantitative reading for analog signal quality.)


In my market, we'll only have High-VHF and UHF stations after analog shutoff. So would filtering my antenna (High-VHF/UHF combo) through an HLSJ still make sense? (And will it double as an FM trap since FM stations are right after the end of Low-VHF?)


----------



## cyberodie

Installing my first antenna for our cabin and looking for advise for the best antenna. Zip is 56586. Here is a link to the TV Fool report. (As attachment since I can't post a link as a newbie). We sit at the bottom of a hill with trees and the top of the hill to the NW.


Thank you.


Kevin


----------



## moonstar

I'm new here but I live in Manhattan, New York, which is actually a bad reception area, 1-2 miles from the transmitter (the Empire State Building) but I'm surrounded by tall structures and helicoptors fly above my building. According to Antennaweb, I am in the Blue and Purple areas. The thing is an indoor antenna is my only option as I do not own the rooftop of the building I live in, which is most likely the case for most of the people here.


I tried two indoor antennas so far: one that came with Pinnacle PCTV (computer TV tuner) and Terik HDTVa Antenna PRO (amplified). I get bad pixelation on my television at times, but in particular, I noticed that Pinnacle's antenna is better for CW11. Terek seems to do better for CBS, NBC, Fox, and ABC especially when the antenna is positioned slightly away from the window.


My biggest problem at this moment is pixelation. How can I reduce it? Is an amplifier (from Radio Shack) going to work? Any suggestion is greatly appreciated. Thanx.


----------



## electrictroy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/14776892
> 
> 
> I use this one. http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=Y5-2-6



I bought an AntennaCraft but the model number is Y5-6. The antenna looks identical to the image for the Y5-2-6. I don't have any channels 2,3,4,or 5 but if I did, would the Y5-6 antenna receive any of them?


I also bought a Channel Master 1510 (channel 10) yagi. I'm hoping the new 4228HD receives channel 10 so I won't need this yagi, and can sell it to someone else. My current 4228 does not receive channel 10 (WHTM27) from Harrisburg.


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *moonstar* /forum/post/14808353
> 
> 
> My biggest problem at this moment is pixelation. How can I reduce it? Is an amplifier (from Radio Shack) going to work?



Stacking one amplifier on top of another is very likely to overload the digital tuner, resulting in poorer reception. Even if a second amp doesn't cause overload, it exacerbate the multipath interference you're undoubtedly experiencing. Pixelation is one result of multipath. If getting by the window didn't help and the super won't permit a cable run up to the roof under any circumstance, you're a candidate for broadcast-basic ("lifeline") cable service. Many providers pass digital/HD signals from OTA broadcasters over their systems, so it's worth a phone call to find out. Check the manual to determine whether your Pinnacle DTV stick/card is "clear QAM" capable (current models are), which is the standard used by cable companies. If so, you shouldn't need to rent an outboard set-top box.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ThoraX695* /forum/post/14807075
> 
> 
> In my market, we'll only have High-VHF and UHF stations after analog shutoff. So would filtering my antenna (High-VHF/UHF combo) through an HLSJ still make sense? (And will it double as an FM trap since FM stations are right after the end of Low-VHF?)



You may not need to filter out the other bands, but if you don't want FM or 2-6, using an HLSJ should be more effective than simply using an FM trap.


It makes me wonder when/if we will start seeing new pre-amps for 7-51 only. I am still concerned about new services in the 52-69 overloading my 7777, as well as WSD's.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *electrictroy* /forum/post/14808673
> 
> 
> I bought an AntennaCraft but the model number is Y5-6. The antenna looks identical to the image for the Y5-2-6. I don't have any channels 2,3,4,or 5 but if I did, would the Y5-6 antenna receive any of them?



So, it is a single channel Yagi for 6? If so, perhaps it would be passable for 5, but less so for 2-4. What is the measurement of the widest element?


What stations are you trying to receive with it?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> My biggest problem at this moment is pixelation. How can I reduce it? Is an amplifier (from Radio Shack) going to work? Any suggestion is greatly appreciated. Thanx.



Your biggest problem with all the buildings is mult-path. I would get the $3.95 Radio Shack Classic Bowtie antenna and a balun and about 25ft of RG-6 cable. Then try positioning the antenna in various places around the room until you find the good hot spot.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *electrictroy* /forum/post/14808673
> 
> 
> I bought an AntennaCraft but the model number is Y5-6. The antenna looks identical to the image for the Y5-2-6. I don't have any channels 2,3,4,or 5 but if I did, would the Y5-6 antenna receive any of them?
> 
> 
> I also bought a Channel Master 1510 (channel 10) yagi. I'm hoping the new 4228HD receives channel 10 so I won't need this yagi, and can sell it to someone else. My current 4228 does not receive channel 10 (WHTM27) from Harrisburg.



Antennacraft Y5-6 is a Single Channel Yagi optimized for CH6:
http://www.vancebaldwin.com/products/?ANT&start=1 

Which means the gain is going to be dropping like a rock on

adjacent channels and hardly any gain beyond that.....


Couldn't readily find discontinued Antennacraft specs, but probably has

about 8 MHz bandwidth since it's similar to 5-element BTY-5-LB:
http://www.blondertongue.com/media/p...eption/bty.pdf 


The 5-element BTY-5-LB and 10-element BTY-10-HB antennas should

also be "similiar" to fol. Wade (Delhi) Single Channel Yagis:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/WadeSCY.html 
http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/cutchannel.pdf


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cyberodie* /forum/post/14807521
> 
> 
> Installing my first antenna for our cabin and looking for advise for the best antenna. Zip is 56586. Here is a link to the TV Fool report. (As attachment since I can't post a link as a newbie). We sit at the bottom of a hill with trees and the top of the hill to the NW.



I would suggest re-running your TVFool.com plot for a couple reasons:


1) TV Fool underwent major changes yesterday and some of the plots were not accurate for a while.

2) The TV Fool plot shown is for "street level" resolution. Try using coordinates instead for a more accurate reading.


However, it appears that it will be a difficult spot, requiring a rotor and some of the best antennas available to get more than a few channels. Fox (KVRR) is quite strong and appears to be easy to receive, but the problem is that it's likely to overload a pre-amp when you point the antenna in that direction.


----------



## PCTools

1) Will tighten the beamwith.

2) Will increase gain. On paper, it will yield 3dB. In the real world, I would say about 1.5dB with splitter loss. Also, you have to make sure the antennas are aligned "perfect."

3) High bander = Antenna tuned for channels 7 - 13. The Funke is a superior antenna taht can be purchased from a member on this site.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *electrictroy* /forum/post/14770578
> 
> 
> Troy jealous.
> 
> 
> Troy want.
> 
> 
> ;-) - So what's the advantage of placing two 91XG's side-by-side like that? Does it narrow the beam? Or just increase the power? (Also what's a High Bander?)


----------



## electrictroy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/14813266
> 
> 
> Antennacraft Y5-6 is a Single Channel Yagi optimized for CH6, which means the gain is going to be dropping like a rock on adjacent channels and hardly any gain beyond that.....



That's okay, because I don't have anything lower than 6. I was just curious.


My CM4228 doesn't handle VHF very well (for example: does not get 10-DT from 40 miles away). What can I do to make it work better?


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *electrictroy* /forum/post/14815617
> 
> 
> That's okay, because I don't have anything lower than 6. I was just curious.
> 
> 
> My CM4228 doesn't handle VHF very well (for example: does not get 10-DT from 40 miles away). What can I do to make it work better?



You'll need a dedicated VHF-HI, or a channel 10 specific antenna. WHTM has a directional antenna pattern that favors areas to the _west_ of Harrisburg.


----------



## cyberodie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by cyberodie
> 
> Installing my first antenna for our cabin and looking for advise for the best antenna. Zip is 56586. Here is a link to the TV Fool report. (As attachment since I can't post a link as a newbie). We sit at the bottom of a hill with trees and the top of the hill to the NW.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/14813922
> 
> 
> I would suggest re-running your TVFool.com plot for a couple reasons:
> 
> 
> 1) TV Fool underwent major changes yesterday and some of the plots were not accurate for a while.
> 
> 2) The TV Fool plot shown is for "street level" resolution. Try using coordinates instead for a more accurate reading.
> 
> 
> However, it appears that it will be a difficult spot, requiring a rotor and some of the best antennas available to get more than a few channels. Fox (KVRR) is quite strong and appears to be easy to receive, but the problem is that it's likely to overload a pre-amp when you point the antenna in that direction.



Thanks for looking at it for me Here is the new TV Fool report using coordinates.


----------



## philherz

For the last 4 weeks, my parents have been using a Radio Shack 15-1878 to pick up the top 6 channels at their apartment as listed in the tvfool printout. (Their apartment is in a complex and there's a highway noise barrier close by.)

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...Id=2103916&cp= 


Used trial and error to get it to work...TV tuner doesn't show signal strength.


The hardest to get is WKBW and it worked great until it didn't come in last night and my father "adjusted" the antenna and really screwed it royal!


Thanks!!


We find that the circular part of the antenna works best when it lays almost horizontal with the table it's on.


I've been following this thread for 2 months but I'm totally lost! Should I try to add a 2nd antenna just to get WKBW or replace the 15-1878??? (Outdoor antenna is not a possibility)

http://www.discountsoccerjerseys.com...8_Zip_Code.png


----------



## ThoraX695




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/14811569
> 
> 
> You may not need to filter out the other bands, but if you don't want FM or 2-6, using an HLSJ should be more effective than simply using an FM trap.
> 
> 
> It makes me wonder when/if we will start seeing new pre-amps for 7-51 only. I am still concerned about new services in the 52-69 overloading my 7777, as well as WSD's.



OK. Thanks for the info. FM Fool says that my strongest FM station is 6 miles away at -35.9 dBm, so my FM trap is set in. (I know they changed TV Fool yesterday or the day before. I don't know if FM Fool has been changed too.)


And I was thinking the same thing about filters on pre-amps. Perhaps we'll see a "Hi-VHF/FM In" trap setting in addition to "FM (only) In" and "Out". Or go from using traps to bandpass filters since most the majority of the markets will need only UHF or UHF and High-VHF.


----------



## PCTools

Radio Shack = Garbage


----------



## philherz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/14822650
> 
> 
> Radio Shack = Garbage



I know, but I asked in quite a few forums including my local Buffalo one and never got any real help what to buy.


Soooo, I went to radio Shack because at least there I could try 3 out and return whatever didn't work.


My parents are in their late 80's and all I want to do is get 5 channels OTA on the new HDTV I bought them for their 65th (!!!) Anniversary.


Can't someone help me????


Please see post #8062


----------



## jcg

I currently have a CM4228 and a CM7777 preamp to get OTA HD in Pleasanton, CA from the Sutro tower in SF. Just found out that ABC (KGO) is moving from ch 24 to channel 7 on Feb 17th 2009. So my question is is there a combination antenna that will do VHF (ch 7 and up) AND UHF, or is the only option 2 antennas? Also I went to solidsignal and they show the CM4228 is discontinued and the new model is a CM4228-HD. Anyone know if this new model is better that the old one? Or is the CM4228 still considered the best UHF antenna?


jcg


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cyberodie* /forum/post/14818781
> 
> 
> Thanks for looking at it for me Here is the new TV Fool report using coordinates.



Thanks for the updated plot. It looks like you will need to go with a rooftop, outdoor antenna. Unless there is something on the channel 2 translator that you want to watch and since KDLO appears to be out of the range of reliability, a 7-51/69 antenna, with a rotor and possibly a pre-amp will be needed.


Channel Master is coming out with some new models soon, but for right now, the following Winegard antenna would be something to consider.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=HD7698P 


If you are looking for an attic mount, the CM4228 may get it done for UHF, but attic mounts are difficult for a VHF antenna that may need to be turned.


----------



## Dan Kolton




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *philherz* /forum/post/14823699
> 
> 
> I know, but I asked in quite a few forums including my local Buffalo one and never got any real help what to buy.
> 
> 
> Soooo, I went to radio Shack because at least there I could try 3 out and return whatever didn't work.
> 
> 
> My parents are in their late 80's and all I want to do is get 5 channels OTA on the new HDTV I bought them for their 65th (!!!) Anniversary.
> 
> 
> Can't someone help me????
> 
> 
> Please see post #8062



I've had good luck with a Zenith Silver Sensor (also marketed under other names). Bought mine from Amazon. I suspect a DB2 from www.antennasdirect.com might also do the job at a higher cost (they have people who can advise you). I'm far from an expert. I've been led to believe that RatShack antennas are to be avoided.


----------



## philherz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dan Kolton* /forum/post/14826409
> 
> 
> I've had good luck with a Zenith Silver Sensor (also marketed under other names). Bought mine from Amazon. I suspect a DB2 from www.antennasdirect.com might also do the job at a higher cost (they have people who can advise you). I'm far from an expert. I've been led to believe that RatShack antennas are to be avoided.



3 months ago I did a favor for someone without a computer and bought a Silver Sensor for him and wish I could borrow it back for a quick test.


QUESTION: If I buy another one and it works great, we're gold.


If it's too directional and picks up the problem station OK but fails on the rest that are in a different direction without moving it, do I get my old A-B switch and have them keep switching back and forth between the Radio Shack and the Silver Sensor??


Do my parents have to keep moving the Silver Sensor to different locations?


Is there a way to hook both up at the same time?


(I'm sure this has been covered, but I get totally lost when you guys who really know this stuff get too technical...sorry)


----------



## Arkyman

Well, I decided to drag my old CM Quantum 1160a out of retirement this afternoon and put it up at my shop so I could watch tv while I work on things. Man the thing was filthy, I'd had it in the top of another little 16x12 shop I have, the dirt dobbers, spiders and everything else just had a field day with it. I washed her off good with a water hose, looked a lot better, probably will help it perform a little better also. It was in worse shape than I remembered. Besides a slighty bent boom, it also had at least 5-6 broken elements that I had to "Farmer Engineer"







back together. I dont know if its because the thing is 14 years old, the amp is weak or both, but it doesnt peform quite as well on the broad spetrum as my 3671 and 8200. But the thing is old and kind of messed up somewhat. Anyway, I hooked it up to my old Mitsubishi 65" 16x9 HD monitor. It only has an NTSC tuner, no ATSC. So, I hooked it up to one of the insignia STB's that converts DTV to analog. Even so, it looks way better than the Analog did when I first hooked it straight to the tv. Another factor in the Quantums reception could be the location. My shop is about 100 feet to the East of my home, I have never had an antenna there before so I didnt know what to really expect at that location. It locks 4.1 KARK and 11.1 THV really well. 16.1 KLRT and 38.1 KASN lock but the signal is erratic and it drops a lot. 42.1 KWCRAP is a no go. On the FS side, 13.1 KAFT and 40.1 KHBS are really strong, but 18.1 KFSM is weak and wont lock. All in all, for the shop, I'm pretty happy with the set up. I'd have to say at this point, the CM3671 and Winegard 8200 definitely lock onto channels easier than the 14 yr old beat up weak amped Quantum. However, I'd love to see a comparison between all 3 of these if the Quantum was brand new, that my friends might be a whole different story, at one time I'd say it had twice the performance as what I seen out of it today. The 1160a when I first got it would bring ch 42 analog in almost as clear as 4, 7, 11 and 16 which were comparable to my C-bands PQ. Today on analog, 42 looked like crap ,very snowy, watchable but most of us wouldnt looking like that. So the Quantum has seen its better days. I also noticed today that it is much more directional than the 3671 and 8200. That can be good and bad, in my case its bad because 16 and 38 are offset a bit from 4 and 11. I like finding the hot spot where I get them all in one position, wasnt happening with the 1160a, that booger has and eye on it and you've got to really aim it. In the old days of analog, that is why this anteanna performed so well when new, it did not accept interference like multipath or ghosting at all. But, like I said, the location is also different, If I had put it back in its original location on my home roof, it might have out performed the other two ants. I tell ya fellas, all 3 are BIG HUGE ANTENNAS...and when your doing it all by yourself it'll wear you out. It would be fun to get all 3 up in similar locations and run comparison tests to see which one rises to the top. From my experience with these 3 antennas, I can draw a few conclusions, at least for my location.


The Quantum 1160a when new, is probably the best performer, however the on board amp 0100C I believe has lower gain and a higher noise rating than the CM7777 preamp. That can be a difference in an area like mine. But the Quantum seems more directional, has a "HOT BOOM" and the amp is built right into the terminals for minimal db loss in transferring signal to Coax to power supply. VHF is hot on the Quantum, UHF is good at 16, weaker at 38 and stronger at 42 when NEW, not when its 14 yrs old like mine.


The CM3671 seems to be a monster on VHF, really strong readings, UHF is pretty darn good as well. Its not as directional as the 1160a but in a way thats a good thing, it still rejects all the annoyances that can occur. I'd say as a comparison between the ants I have and the conditions they are in, the 3671 is a bit better than the Quantum on the UHF side.


The Winegard HD8200U seems to be the monster on UHF. I did not see much improvement on it with readings from LR vs the 3671, however, it smoked the 3671 on uhf readings from Fort Smith. I seen meter readings jump as much as 20 points, that is a HUGE difference. The UHF on the 8200 is the hottest I've seen from any antenna, it even out performs the Winegard PR9032 (114" yagi) and the CM4228 that I have amped up with another CM7777 amp. For some reason, Broadband antennas get higher readings on both bands at my location than single band antennas do. VHF on the 8200 is slightly weaker than the 3761 and considerably weaker than the Quantum 1160a. But, we are talking readings like KARK 4.1 CM1160a = 90%....CM3671 = 87%.......Winegard 8200U = 81%. So as you can see, even though it is the weakest of the 3 on VHF at my location, it really doesn't matter because 81% is still a very reliable signal.


Sorry for rambling so much guys, just felt like sharing some of this info, maybe someone can find some use out of it. I would also be glad to answer any questions any of you might have about these particular ants if I can. All in all, I've been enjoying myself lately with all the antenna swapping and experimenting I've been doing. Its a lot of fun to me, it can be back breaking work at times in certain situations but I have a farm so whats new


----------



## Digital Rules

Didn't you say earlier that you also tried the 91-XG? If so, how did it compare with the 8200?


----------



## Dan Kolton

philherz,

Any of those scenarios may turn out to be the case. I've never used one, but people talk about using a "combiner". If necessary, try a search on that. You still might be ahead to talk to an expert at an antenna vendor.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/14822650
> 
> 
> Radio Shack = Garbage



Correction, Radio Shack = Ridiculously Overpriced Garbage.


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *philherz* /forum/post/14828545
> 
> 
> If it's too directional and picks up the problem station OK but fails on the rest that are in a different direction without moving it, do I get my old A-B switch and have them keep switching back and forth between the Radio Shack and the Silver Sensor??



An A/B switch is usually the best way to go. You can try to combine the antennas through a reversed splitter and not harm anything, but combined antennas are highly likely to "fight" each other instead of boosting the signals.


----------



## Arkyman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/14832467
> 
> 
> Didn't you say earlier that you also tried the 91-XG? If so, how did it compare with the 8200?



I cut my Huge Dehli/Jerrold VU937sr in half and tried to use the UHF end. I said it was basically the same as the directs 91xg. I do have the AntennasDirect DB8 and it wont hardly pick up a thing here even with the Cm7777 amp. I hear its better for channels 30 and up, but honestly I didnt see it myself. I'm an average of 60 miles from the towers. The big Combo Anteannas smoke the singles I've used in my location


----------



## PCTools

I disagree with this statement.


If you properly align your antennas, you will gain.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/14834944
> 
> 
> An A/B switch is usually the best way to go. You can try to combine the antennas through a reversed splitter and not harm anything, but combined antennas are highly likely to "fight" each other instead of boosting the signals.


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M*
> 
> An A/B switch is usually the best way to go. You can try to combine the antennas through a reversed splitter and not harm anything, but combined antennas are highly likely to "fight" each other instead of boosting the signals.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/14837480
> 
> 
> I disagree with this statement. If you properly align your antennas, you will gain.



For the disinterested person who's trying to learn about this, and even the casual hobbyist, I stand by my recommendation.


Reason #1: "The Two Antenna Trick (indoor version)" on this page .


Reason #2: "The Two Antenna Trick (outdoor version)" .


You want to go through this much work for an extra dB or two? Be my guest. Most people won't want to deal with the hassles involved.


----------



## PCTools

The added gain in deep fringe areas is worth the hassle and bragging rights, once the design is completed.


Living in a remote location, 50 miles from the nearest transmitter allows the implementation of a stacked array with no overloading of the system.


Achieving digital locks on stations in the Detroit, Cleveland, Flint, Dayton, Lansing, Ann Arbor, Ft. Wayne, Chicago, and Toledo markets is an accomplishment.


Then again, having your tower at 801 ft above sea level is the secret to my success.


Chad

Electrical Engineer

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Don_M* 
For the disinterested person who's trying to learn about this, and even the casual hobbyist, I stand by my recommendation.


Reason #1: "The Two Antenna Trick (indoor version)" on this page .


Reason #2: "The Two Antenna Trick (outdoor version)" .


You want to go through this much work for an extra dB or two? Be my guest. Most people won't want to deal with the hassles involved.

 

The Monster[1].pdf 359.7255859375k . file


----------



## philherz

Originally Posted by Don_M

An A/B switch is usually the best way to go. You can try to combine the antennas through a reversed splitter and not harm anything, but combined antennas are highly likely to "fight" each other instead of boosting the signals.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/14845921
> 
> 
> For the disinterested person who's trying to learn about this, and even the casual hobbyist, I stand by my recommendation.
> 
> 
> Reason #1: "The Two Antenna Trick (indoor version)" on this page .



Just to remind anyone interested: For the last 4 weeks, my parents have been using a Radio Shack 15-1878 to pick up the top 6 channels at their apartment as listed in the tvfool printout. (Their apartment is in a complex and there's a highway noise barrier close by.)


The hardest to get has always been WKBW and it worked great until my father "adjusted" the antenna and really screwed it royal!

http://www.discountsoccerjerseys.com...8_Zip_Code.png 


My parents have one of those "lifeline" cable connections for $9/month that they haven't used since they went OTA.


Since I haven't gotten any other antennas yet, I added my A/B switch so they could at least get SD WKBW from the cable.


Without adjusting the Radio Shack 15-1878 whatsoever, I noticed that WKBW has returned OTA and the antenna doesn't seem susceptible to losing channel lock when someone walks past it.


Probably just dumb luck, but all channels seem rock-solid for some reason!!!


----------



## gychang

I am new at this, want to put an HDTV UHF antenna in my attic.


I live in Irvine, CA (92603), I need to receive Los Angeles stations 44 miles away.


1. I am considering Eagle Aspen Dtv2Buhf Directv 2-Bay Uhf Antenna, from Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...X0DER&v=glance 


is this reasonable to try?


2. What is a optimal cable to get it hooked to my TV? will RG6 F cable work?
http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2 


thanks for any suggestions.


gychang


----------



## Digital Rules

Gychang,


You will lose 4 stations after the '09 transition that are going _back_ to VHF.(KTTV, KABC, KCOP, & KCAL) One of the Winegard HD channel 7-52 antennas would be a better choice; _except for the weak HD-1080_. RG-6 cable should work just fine for you.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gychang* /forum/post/14847811
> 
> 
> I live in Irvine, CA (92603), I need to receive Los Angeles stations 44 miles away.



We will need 7-13 locally next year as well, but a UHF antenna may work. I would suggest checking out Fry's Electronics. They carry the Channel Master line, though there have been some recent design changes. I have a CM4228 in my attic (at 51 miles vs. your 44) and it works great. It is probably going to be enough for 7-13 as well, but I have a YA1713 in my attic as well.


A CM4221 would probably be fine for UHF in the attic, but it's not going to get it done for VHF 7.


Fry's has plenty of RG6 cable, though I have found the quality to be a bit lacking. I prefer double shielded RG6 cabling from Lowe's (Philips), with compression connectors (some assembly required).


----------



## gychang




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/14848181
> 
> 
> We will need 7-13 locally next year as well, but a UHF antenna may work. I would suggest checking out Fry's Electronics. They carry the Channel Master line, though there have been some recent design changes. I have a CM4228 in my attic (at 51 miles vs. your 44) and it works great. It is probably going to be enough for 7-13 as well, but I have a YA1713 in my attic as well.
> 
> 
> A CM4221 would probably be fine for UHF in the attic, but it's not going to get it done for VHF 7.
> 
> 
> Fry's has plenty of RG6 cable, though I have found the quality to be a bit lacking. I prefer double shielded RG6 cabling from Lowe's (Philips), with compression connectors (some assembly required).



thanks very much will check it out.


gychang


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14834717
> 
> 
> Correction, Radio Shack = Ridiculously Overpriced Garbage.



You mean you don't use their products with Terk antennas and Monster Cables?


----------



## Konrad2

>> Correction, Radio Shack = Ridiculously Overpriced Garbage.


> You mean you don't use their products with Terk antennas and Monster Cables?


Monster tends to be overpriced, sometimes obscenely so,

but the quality is good, it isn't garbage. Occasionally

you can find it at a reasonable price. Radio Shack

is garbage at any price.


----------



## PCTools

Monster Cables are overpriced, and imported into the United States. I toured the facility back in 2007, with the President of the company. The majority of the employees are not American.


As for pricing, the mark-up on these is incredible. I get 60% off list and they are STILL expensive. Then again, I have over $2,000 worth of their cables in my home. (That is with the discount). Then again, I am an audiophile.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/14851765
> 
> 
> >> Correction, Radio Shack = Ridiculously Overpriced Garbage.
> 
> 
> > You mean you don't use their products with Terk antennas and Monster Cables?
> 
> 
> Monster tends to be overpriced, sometimes obscenely so,
> 
> but the quality is good, it isn't garbage. Occasionally
> 
> you can find it at a reasonable price. Radio Shack
> 
> is garbage at any price.


----------



## AntAltMike

A decade ago, I did a residential antenna system installatin in a big home. A couple of days later, the customer called me back because one of the outlets wasn't working and she was sure it was my fault because all they had done was to replace the cheap TV coax with a nice $15 monster cable with gold plated connectors and coil spring strain relief.


Guess what? The Monster cable was bad. I cut off the gold plated, strain relief conductor and crimped on a ten cent one. I never heard from them again.


----------



## electrictroy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/14815981
> 
> 
> You'll need a dedicated VHF-HI, or a channel 10 specific antenna. WHTM has a directional antenna pattern that favors areas to the _west_ of Harrisburg.



Yeah I don't understand that. WHTM is supposed to be part of the Lancaster-York-Lebanon market, so why are they broadcasting *away* from those cities? Not logical imho.


Also I was looking for a way to improve CM4228 reception on the VHF-Hi band without buying an additional antenna. Is that possible?


----------



## Sammer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *electrictroy* /forum/post/14854277
> 
> 
> Yeah I don't understand that. WHTM is supposed to be part of the Lancaster-York-Lebanon market, so why are they broadcasting *away* from those cities? Not logical imho.



It probably has to do with pre-transition interference, specifically with WCAU Philadelphia. They are also short spaced to WTAJ Altoona but the terrain gives them more leeway to the west. They have filed a post-transition maximization petition for a non-directional antenna at a greater height with the FCC.


----------



## Ben98gs

I am having a hard time figuring out exactly what antenna would work best for me... I was originally thinking about the CM4228 but have been told that is probably overkill. This will be attic mounted and I would like to receive the 2 VHF Lo channels in addition to the VHF Hi and UHF.


Is the CM4228 a good antenna for my location or is there one better suited to get all the channels I want. Most of the stuff that I want is in the 200*-270* range, but the ones at 360* we watch a lot too.. Am I going to need a rotator to ensure I get all those as well or am I close enough to all to use a single permanently mounted antenna.


Thanks for your help.


Here is the TVFool of my location:


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ben98gs* /forum/post/14857052
> 
> 
> I am having a hard time figuring out exactly what antenna would work best for me...



The attached TVFool report contains both both analog and digital broadcasts. Since full-power analog stations (usually, but not always, major-network affiliates) are going away at the Feb. 17 transition, and since some of the digital-broadcast channel assignments may be changed on or after that date, please attach a post-transition report to a follow-up reply. With only four months to go, it makes little sense to offer recommendations now that may be obsolete then. In addition, please tell us how many tuners you plan to hook up to the antenna and give a rough estimate of antenna-downlead length, and the length of any cables to additional tuners.


Generally speaking, the 4228 isn't the best choice for an attic installation. You want a Yagi antenna, which would offer better multipath-rejection capability. Specific ideas must await the post-transition report. If any of your digital stations are assigned to the VHF-low band permanently, you'll need an all-channel model; if not, a VHF-high/UHF combination antenna will do the trick.


The TVFool radar plot suggests a rotor will be a good idea. No stationary directional antenna is capable of picking up signals from that wide a range.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/14857797
> 
> 
> Generally speaking, the 4228 isn't the best choice for an attic installation. You want a Yagi antenna, which would offer better multipath-rejection capability.



Bow-ties are my first choice for an attic installation (I have 2 for the purpose). While the above concern is correct, putting a long boom antenna in an attic is not a fun exercise, especially if you want to put the antenna on a rotor.


I would suggest a CM4221 for UHF, but you may need to add an upper VHF antenna for WISH and WTHR (for directionality if you have multi-path problems). WISH is on 9 and will remain there, but WTHR will be moving back to 13. No Low-VHF DTV stations are currently slated for the Indianapolis area.


----------



## kenbell

I'm attaching the signal analysis from TVfool in case it might help.


I installed a Channel Master 4220 on the strip of wall in between the two North-facing windows of my apartment, and am using a Zenith DTT901 (August build).


Currently this setup receives the following channels:


2.1 (WCBS)

4.1 (WNBC)

4.2 (WNBC weather)

4.4 (WNBC ?)

5.1 (WNYW)

5.2 (WWOR)

7.1 (WABC)

7.2 (WABC weather)

7.3 (WABC "Now")

9.1 (WWOR)

9.2 (WNYW)

11.1 (WPIX)

11.2 (LATV)

[13.1 (WNET) mostly missing]

[13.2 (WNET Kids) mostly missing]

25.1 (WNYE) weak

25.2 (WNYE traffic cam) weak

[41.1 (WXTV) mostly missing]

[68.1 (WFUT) mostly missing]


There are steel gates on both windows, and there is a fire escape outside, so I can't mount the antenna outside (or it will poke someone's eye out when they are escaping from a fire). The windows face into the building's euphemistically named "courtyard", about ten feet from the northernmost inner brick wall (and from there, apartments and outer brick wall) of the building. This is, for those familiar with the area, opposite the side entrance of the defunct Fillmore East  In its current location, the 4220 sort of "peeks through" the fire escape and the center 3 or 4 inches of it sit between the steel gates.


Anyhow, the reception is remarkably good. It was good, but not as good, even with an old RCA set top round loop UHF antenna before I got the CM4220.


The signal from Channel 13 (WNET) however is almost always absent, as is that from Channel 68 (WFUT), although both have been pulled in on occasion.


Is it worth trying the addition of a CM7777 to boost the signal? I've also read good things about the Antennacraft 10G212.


Any other ideas on dragging in the fringe stations?


BTW, offtopic, but why does WWOR shows up on 5.2 as well as 9.1?


Thanks for reading, and thanks in advance for any advice.


-- Ken


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kenbell* /forum/post/14859965
> 
> 
> Is it worth trying the addition of a CM7777 to boost the signal? I've also read good things about the Antennacraft 10G212.


_"Any"_ amplification at 1.5 miles out will certainly degrade your reception.(_Especially_ your weaker channels) For an indoor antenna you are getting very good results. Your best bet is to wait till FEB'09 and you should at least see an improvement on WNET. WNET is now on UHF channel 61; but will be going to VHF channel 13 on FEB 17 '09.


----------



## nwiser

hi guys. for those that are pro's at this, I have a question about grounding: If I want to properly ground my antenna, in addition to grounding the coax via a grounding block, I have to ground the antenna mount. Is grounding the mount the same as grounding the antenna, and what qualifies as the mount (tripod, bracket, just the mast)?


If I have my antenna on a mast that is set in a tripod, does the ground wire go to the mast or to the tripod, and how would one connect it to either? I know there are clamps that one slips on a ground rod to feed the ground wire through, but would one of those clamps also need to go on the antenna mast so that a ground wire could be connected to it, and ground it that way? Thanks.


----------



## jstachowiak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gychang* /forum/post/14847811
> 
> 
> I am new at this, want to put an HDTV UHF antenna in my attic.
> 
> 
> I live in Irvine, CA (92603), I need to receive Los Angeles stations 44 miles away.
> 
> 
> 1. I am considering Eagle Aspen Dtv2Buhf Directv 2-Bay Uhf Antenna, from Amazon.
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...X0DER&v=glance
> 
> 
> is this reasonable to try?
> 
> 
> 2. What is a optimal cable to get it hooked to my TV? will RG6 F cable work?
> http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2
> 
> 
> thanks for any suggestions.
> 
> 
> gychang



I have the Eagle Aspen only it is a DB2. I'm 14 miles from the antennas and it works great. They make a DB4 (two of these) and a DB8 (4 of them) that might work better for your distance. My DB2 picks up VHF fairly well, better after I combined it with rabbit ears. All mine are in the attic of a high pitch roof about 18 feet above the ground.


DB4 http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB4_HDTV_antenna.html 


DB8 http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB8_HD_Antenna.html 


Antenna Web will tell you what you need and direction to aim antenna. http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/Address.aspx 


It is trial and error for best reception.


----------



## PA_MainyYak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/14860070
> 
> _"Any"_ amplification at 1.5 miles out will certainly degrade your reception.(_Especially_ your weaker channels) For an indoor antenna you are getting very good results. Your best bet is to wait till FEB'09 and you should at least see an improvement on WNET. WNET is now on VHF channel 13; but will be going to UHF channel 61 on FEB 17 '09. Keep in mind that WNET is in Newark, NJ, so you may never get great reception from them.



Actually WNET is currently using channel 61 for digital, but will return to 13 after analog shutdown next February. Find WNET's Digital Transition Report here. 

No full power TV stations will operate above channel 51 post-transition.


----------



## electrictroy

I'm glad to hear WHTM will be switching to a non-directional antenna. Maybe more of the signal will reach Lancaster and enable me to pick-up DT10 using a standard 4228 antenna, instead of a bulky Yagi.


I'm beginning to wonder if DTV and amplifiers are non-compatible. I get Philadelphia stations that are 50 miles distant, and although they sometimes drop-out, the addition of an amplifier merely made my local stations disappear (overload of tuner). On analog overload it not really an issue, since is just makes the colors more vibrant, but the digital tuner doesn't seem to like overload.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/14856747
> 
> 
> you can not improve the vhf hi reception on the cm4228. If you only want 1 antenna you would need to replace the cm4228 with the appropriate combo antenna.



Like a 4228HD. ;-)


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PA_MainyYak* /forum/post/14861335
> 
> 
> Actually WNET is currently using channel 61 for digital, but will return to 13 after analog shutdown next February.



Also, keep in mind that the City of License is often an illusion as WNET is also on the ESB. There are many stations across the country that have their tower well away from their COL's (usually to be co-located with other stations). As long as they can cover the COL with a "City Grade" contour it is enough.


However, they are only operating at 12.4kW, which is weak for UHF.


----------



## electrictroy




> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> you can not improve the vhf hi reception on the cm4228. If you only want 1 antenna you would need to replace the cm4228 with the appropriate combo antenna.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like the 4228HD. ;-)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why would you even consider screwing around with another UHF antenna ......I am not getting in a pissing match over this so don't bother.
Click to expand...


Because you said "replace with an appropriate combo antenna" and the 4228HD *is* a combo antenna. The 4228HD has been redesigned & is advertised for channels 7 to 69.


No "pissing match". Just the facts. You can verify those facts for yourself, or ask for confirmation from someone else on the forum.


----------



## Konrad2

Falcon_77 types:


> I prefer double shielded RG6 cabling from Lowe's (Philips),

> with compression connectors (some assembly required).


My Lowe's has RG6 quad shield with factory attached connectors.

No assembly required.


[ bow-tie vs yagi in attic ]

> putting a long boom antenna in an attic is not a fun exercise


Depends on your attic. My roof is fairly low pitch, so my PR-8800

barely fits. My YA-1713 fits easily. It might be more difficult

if I had trusses. And a Yagi with a corner reflector would take

more room.


> if you want to put the antenna on a rotor


That would take a large, open attic with either style antenna.


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/14859106
> 
> 
> Bow-ties are my first choice for an attic installation (I have 2 for the purpose). While the above concern is correct, putting a long boom antenna in an attic is not a fun exercise, especially if you want to put the antenna on a rotor.



Concur. My UHF attic antenna is a hand-built DB-4 clone, and it performs just fine. There's no way I could use a rotor with a Yagi thanks to roof trusses. Nevertheless, the classic advice from people with more practical experience than I have is that attics increase the potential for short-delay multipath, hence the Yagi recommendation. YMMV, as always.


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *electrictroy* /forum/post/14854277
> 
> 
> Yeah I don't understand that. WHTM is supposed to be part of the Lancaster-York-Lebanon market, so why are they broadcasting *away* from those cities? Not logical imho.
> 
> 
> Also I was looking for a way to improve CM4228 reception on the VHF-Hi band without buying an additional antenna. Is that possible?



You can improve the VHF-HI reception of a 4228 in theory by moving the reflector screen back 10 - 11" so you end up with 15 - 16" of reflector spacing you should gain a couple of db average across the VHF-HI band (some channels more some less).


The reason why I say in theory is because I have never done this with an actual 4228 only computer models.

I have tested the theory with home made versions of 4 bays and 8 bays based on the channel master and winegard designs and it does work on those.


It does affect the UHF band width some but still has good gain across the future UHF band. If you don't get the station you desire at all now this mod will probably not make a difference but for someone on the edge it could. It may not be worth the effort for a couple of db but I'll leave that up to you to decide.


Also be sure the reflector screens are electrically bound together, if they aren't the individual reflectors will be too narrow to act as a reflector for VHF-HI and actually act as a director, that's why some people have reported better reception on VHF-HI through the screen.


----------



## w0en

mclapp - since you have done so much empirical work with the longer 9-1/2 or 10 inch open ended bow tie elements to favor the lower UHF channels have you tried anything with dimensions for the closed end bow tie style which from my reading allow a shorter bow tie for the same effect on lower UHF channels and would certainly be a more rugged option from birds and debris for outdoor mounting than the open ended bow tie style?


----------



## electrictroy

Which is why I bought the channel 10 yagi, but that thing is HUGE. I'd rather not use it if I can avoid it.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mclapp* /forum/post/14866961
> 
> 
> Also be sure the reflector screens are electrically bound together...



How do I do that? Wrap pieces of wire down the center of the reflector screen?


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/14864712
> 
> 
> How do I know ???? I called there and asked the technical staff who already compared the 2 antennas...comparable...similar was the words used to describe reception on vhf hi.



Well that's disappointing to hear. Since the old 4228 was advertised as "13-69" and the new 4228HD was advertised as "7-69", I figured they had improved its VHF capability. Also the screen is wider, and now it's one single piece.


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *w0en* /forum/post/14867588
> 
> 
> mclapp - since you have done so much empirical work with the longer 9-1/2 or 10 inch open ended bow tie elements to favor the lower UHF channels have you tried anything with dimensions for the closed end bow tie style which from my reading allow a shorter bow tie for the same effect on lower UHF channels and would certainly be a more rugged option from birds and debris for outdoor mounting than the open ended bow tie style?



I've modeled them but never built one they in theory would have slightly less gain than the whisker style. I have built the winegard style with flat wide elements those are very rugged.


300 ohm is building a closed end bowtie now maybe he can report on that when he gets it built.


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *electrictroy* /forum/post/14868814
> 
> 
> Which is why I bought the channel 10 yagi, but that thing is HUGE. I'd rather not use it if I can avoid it.



A single channel yagi is the way to go for sure you won't find anything with better gain for the size. Have you tried it?


I understand why and I don't blame you, if you can get it done with 1 smaller antenna why bother adding another big one, but that may be your only choice here.


> Quote:
> How do I do that? Wrap pieces of wire down the center of the reflector screen?



Yes the best way to do it would be to wrap a wire all the way down the the vertical length of the screen halves. Other wise you are relying on the screens to hopefully touch and the 2 horizontal frame members behind the screen to be the reflector (which are too short and too few).



> Quote:
> Well that's disappointing to hear. Since the old 4228 was advertised as "13-69" and the new 4228HD was advertised as "7-69", I figured they had improved its VHF capability. Also the screen is wider, and now it's one single piece.



Going to the different reflector should slightly improve the gain on some VHF-HI channels but it still won't be much of an antenna for VHF-HI. It will probably be a couple of db better here and there. I belive the quote was "comparable... similar".


The biggest problem with this style antenna for most people won't be the lack of gain but instead be the multipath problems due to the very wide beam width it has on VHF-HI.


----------



## Ben98gs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/14857797
> 
> 
> The attached TVFool report contains both both analog and digital broadcasts. Since full-power analog stations (usually, but not always, major-network affiliates) are going away at the Feb. 17 transition, and since some of the digital-broadcast channel assignments may be changed on or after that date, please attach a post-transition report to a follow-up reply. With only four months to go, it makes little sense to offer recommendations now that may be obsolete then. In addition, please tell us how many tuners you plan to hook up to the antenna and give a rough estimate of antenna-downlead length, and the length of any cables to additional tuners.



Sorry about that, I thought I had uploaded the Post-transition report, I got them mixed up... Find the post-transition below. You are right that the VHF-low goes away so a VHF-hi/UHF combination will do the trick, but recommendations are still needed as the 4228 that I was considering you said would probably not be the best choice for my attic installation.


As for the number of tuners, it is currently going to be 2, but would like the option to possibly add 1 or 2 more (currently only "need" it in the bedroom and family room, but would like the option to do it in the theater room). I have the whole house wired already. The antenna would probably be about a 25-30 ft run to the patch panel/network box. The run to the bedroom and family room both would probably be about 75-80 ft each and the run to the theater room would be about 30-35 ft (is that what you meant by antenna-download length and lengths to tuners?)



> Quote:
> The TVFool radar plot suggests a rotor will be a good idea. No stationary directional antenna is capable of picking up signals from that wide a range.



Since you suggest a rotor, if you have a recommendation for one that should work good with the antenna(s) you recommend as well that would be awesome.


I am somewhat new to all this just ditching my cable less than 2 weeks ago and trying to figure out how to get the stations onto the tv without all the snow and adjusting the rabbit ears... It is getting old fast.


----------



## Ben98gs

Well, I did have it attached, I do not know why it did not show up... Let me try again... Post-transition TVFool report:


----------



## SkiSmuggs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ben98gs* /forum/post/14869609
> 
> 
> Well, I did have it attached, I do not know why it did not show up... Let me try again... Post-transition TVFool report:



Wow, what a difference from the first one. This looks like a 4 bay aimed at about 280-285 degrees might get most of the green group, except you need high-VHF for CBS and NBC. Maybe a CM2016 or one of the Winegard HD769 series would do the job. Anyone care to comment about the possibility of an Antennas Direct Clearstream2 for this?


----------



## Don_M

Thanks for the additional info; it's a big help. Here's a two-antenna system that should serve you well:


* CM 4221 UHF antenna, mounted above a CM 9521 rotor. This narrow antenna mounts vertically, allowing for rotation in a confined space.


* Antennas Direct Y5-7-13 VHF-high antenna on a second mount lower than, and several feet away from, the 4221. It mounts horizontally and is five feet long by three feet wide max. Channels 8.1 and 13.1 are only 12 degrees apart, so this antenna won't need to be rotated. These are the only two VHF stations you'll likely receive from any attic-mounted antenna. Aim the antenna 8 degrees to the north of due west.


* Make sure there are no major metal structures (roofing nails excepted) in front of either antenna. This includes metal ducts/vents, air handlers, even rain gutters outside. Aiming through brick, aluminum siding or stucco (bonded to the wall with steel mesh) are also no-nos.


* Couple the antennas on one downlead with a UVSJ band separator/combiner. UVSJs lose much less signal than splitters used in reverse and have signal-conditioning capabilities splitters lack. They're no more expensive, either.


* I don't think a pre-amp will be necessary for two tuners. It's worth trying out the antennas before you buy one. Be sure to screw coax terminators onto any unused splitter ports in your patch panel to prevent signal loss or extra reflections.


* When you're ready to put three or four TVs on the antenna system, a low-power pre-amp like Winegard HDP-269 will be sufficient to overcome resulting cable and splitter losses. Insert the amplifier module after the UVSJ, and the power injector before the splitter.


The 4221 doesn't have the 4228's gain, but it's more than sufficient for your signal environment. The Y5, meanwhile, is stronger on VHF. I've more or less described my own attic system (minus the HDP-269) as our signal-strength figures are very similar, and this works well here for two tuners.


----------



## Ben98gs

Thanks for all the information/help... I had been thinking about putting the antenna in one of the "loft" areas on the front (west facing) side of the house, but then there would be aluminum siding in front of it which you said is not good....


I am trying to figure out where the best place to put the antenna would be then... Here is a picture of the house. The front of the house faces west, so the left of the picture would be north and the right would be south.











Would my best bet be to try and place it above the two smaller windows in that attic area? Seems most of my stations are to the southwest, so that might mean that the front part of the house above the garage would be in the way... I know roof mounting would be better, but with my house being THE FIRST house you see coming into the neighborhood I can see the HOA cracking down on my harder than they might someone else if the antenna does not look "pretty". So any suggestions as to attic location since I seem to have one or more of the things you list as "no-nos" that might be a factor?


----------



## Ben98gs

Actually, maybe I will have to check... The more I think about it, the more I think I have vinyl siding and not aluminum... That would make that front area above the garage a viable location still (as that is where I was originally thinking) as that vent I believe is wooden and not metal as well.


Maybe I need to climb up there this weekend and take a look around.


----------



## Don_M

Ben, the siding looks like vinyl to me, which is OK. AFAIK, aluminum siding was passe long before your home was built. The gable vent looks like it's either wood or PVC, which also won't be a problem.


----------



## SkiSmuggs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ben98gs* /forum/post/14871061
> 
> 
> Actually, maybe I will have to check... The more I think about it, the more I think I have vinyl siding and not aluminum... That would make that front area above the garage a viable location still (as that is where I was originally thinking) as that vent I believe is wooden and not metal as well.
> 
> 
> Maybe I need to climb up there this weekend and take a look around.



Ben,

I used a wall mount and fastened right to the end of the eave near the gutter ends. It has been there for 2.5 years and survived high winds with up to 3 antennas (4 bay, hi-VHF and lo-VHF) on two 5' pole sections. Fortunately I am down to just one 2-bay UHF/VHF and one 5 foot pole.


----------



## PA_MainyYak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ben98gs* /forum/post/14871037
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the information/help...
> 
> ... Seems most of my stations are to the southwest, so that might mean that the front part of the house above the garage would be in the way... *I know roof mounting would be better, but with my house being THE FIRST house you see coming into the neighborhood I can see the HOA cracking down on my harder than they might someone else if the antenna does not look "pretty".* So any suggestions as to attic location since I seem to have one or more of the things you list as "no-nos" that might be a factor?



Do keep in mind, the HOA cannot prohibit you from installing a TV antenna on your roof. The guidelines are posted throughout this thread. Your TV Fool plot strongly suggests the need for a modest antenna for Hi-VHF and UHF with a rotor. That might be a tall order inside your loft.


----------



## Ben98gs

I do know that, but sometimes it is easier to just abide by the rules even thought they are superceded by a higher law. Because what happens when I install it and they tell me to take it down? I can either take it down or leave it up and tell them about the law. I have heard of people paying $1,000's in court fees to fight the neighborhood association over things like satellite dishes.


As long as I can find a way to get good reception that is all that matters. If I end up having to put it outside, I will do my best to keep it "hidden" and fight it if it comes down to that.


----------



## Ben98gs

When looking for one of these, I find a CM4221, a CM4221A, and a CM4221HD... Is there really a difference? The 4221 and 4221A are the same price, the 4221HD jumps up ~$20 in price over the other two. Which one should I be looking for?


----------



## electrictroy

Don't you need a VHF antenna for the post-2009 transition? [edit] Yes. If you want WISH-9-CBS and WTHR-13-NBC, then you will need a VHF antenna. The UHF-only 4221 will not work by itself.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ben98gs* /forum/post/14876556
> 
> 
> I can either take it down or leave it up and tell them about the law. I have heard of people paying $1,000's in court fees to fight the neighborhood association over things like satellite dishes.



No. What usually happens is that the Housing Association Lawyer reads the law, and then tells the HA that the U.S. Congress overrules them. Even for those clueless HAs that force the issue, they end-up losing the case and having to pay damages caused to the resident they hassled. So either way, you win.


And finally often the best way to shutdown an argument is to say, "Well you have a dish on your roof, so aren't you in violation too?" Since neighbors don't want to enforce the rules & deprive themselves of satellite service, they will conveniently overlook your antenna.


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Posted by *Ben98gs:*
> 
> When looking for one of these, I find a CM4221, a CM4221A, and a CM4221HD... Is there really a difference? The 4221 and 4221A are the same price, the 4221HD jumps up ~$20 in price over the other two.



The 4221 and 4221A are basically the same thing. They have been discontinued and superseded by the 4221HD. While CM has released few specifications on the 'HD beyond average gain, its design is not radically different, and so there doesn't appear to be much justification for spending the extra money while the tried-and-true, older 4221s are still available.



> Quote:
> Posted by *electrictoy:*
> 
> Don't you need a VHF antenna for the post-2009 transition?



Ben was advised to combine the 4221 with a VHF-high antenna in an earlier post.


----------



## holl_ands

FCC/OET released Test Report for proposed PROTOTYPE White Space Devices (WSD)

which would operate on "unoccupied" TV channels....better known as "Out-Of-Market"

stations to most of us:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1048951


----------



## GutBuster

I'm such a "newbie" to antennas of any sort, especially HD antennas. The jargon is a little over my head at the moment since I have only been researching the idea for roughly 24-48 hours. With that said, I'm sold on at least giving this a shot since I don't have HD service and don't plan on having it for some time. I have an HD TV so that base is covered... can anyone help me with the selection of an antenna? I live in a 3 story town house so the roof is a bit out of the question, although, I can place it in either the attic or on the second story balcony (but would have to be a compact model). Below are my results from antennaweb.org


Sorry for my lack of knowledge on the subject.

*ANY* advice to point me in the correct direction would be *GREATLY* appreciated.


----------



## electrictroy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GutBuster* /forum/post/14883235
> 
> 
> I'm such a "newbie" to antennas of any sort, especially HD antennas.



There's no such thing as an HD antenna. An antenna does not care if it's receiving analog, digital, standard, or high definition signals.


If I lived in an apartment, I'd get the CM4228HD which has the power of a large antenna, but can fit inside your room (about the same size as a chair).


----------



## holl_ands

I think your apt complex is on Highland Ridge Rd just south-west of EW Connector...Right???

It appears you may have multiple apt units between you and the towers...Right???

If not, could you generally describe your surroundings and nearby cross streets?


Good news: It's on the top of a hill.

Not so good news: www.tvfool.com shows all stations being single/double edge diffraction.

So indoor antennas are going to be a challenge, despite being only 10 miles away.


You could try indoor location....preferable looking out a SE window...but attic is better.


CM-4228 has a beamwidth of 20-30 degrees (narrower for higher channels).

You might have difficulties aligning the CM-4228 to receive stations scattered across

24 degrees (107-131) and many would be operating at reduced gain on the sidelobes.

You could try it and if you have difficulties, you could add a rotator in the attic.


However, I recommend trying any of the broader beamwidth 4-Bay antennas first.

If you want to receive WATC-DT towards 17 degrees, you'll need a rotator....

or a dual antenna system. However, with a 4-Bay it might come in on a sidelobe....


Post-Feb2008 all of the primary stations will continue to be in UHF band,

incl. WPBS-DT (30.1) for PBS. A second PBS station, WGTV-DT goes to VHF Ch8,

which may or may not work with either CM-4228 or 4-Bay antenna. If you

decide it's worth the extra effort, you could add a VHF-only antenna such as

Winegard YA-1713, Antennacraft Y10-7-13 or Y5-7-13.

*Standard YMMV Disclaimer Applies.*

Indoor/Attic locations, esp. in Apt/Condo buildings with rebar/steel,

Aluminized moisture barrier wraps, et. al. are very difficult to predict...

esp. with other nearby buildings attenuating the signal.....


PS: While trying to tri-laterate your LAT/LONG position, I noticed
www.antennaweb.org results varied quite a bit for very small

changes (a few 100 feet) in your vicinity.....


----------



## mattdp

Ok... so I got my entire antenna setup in the air: a DIY Screened 75" x 30" Gray Hooverman for UHF, Wade UV-936SR for VHF (off my neighbor's roof) and a DIY FM antenna. The TV antennas are combined into a VUSJ and fed into a Winegard AP-8780.


On the bottom, there's a 5' tripod (secured to three T-posts and planted on patio blocks) Mounted in the tripod is a 10' piece of EMT conduit (the biggest stuff that would fit, either 1 1/2" or 1 1/4"). The Channel Master rotor is about a foot from the top of this pole. On the very top is a TB-105 Rotor Bearing. I'm running about 300ft of 18/3 from controller to rotor


The bearing has guy wires coming off of it.


It's been up for almost a week, looks straight and all that jazz.


I temporarily hooked it up today and the antenna works great!!! I get a bunch of strong stations wayyy of axis, even WEAU-DT (39, 13.1-2) off axis and rock solid at a whopping 84 miles!!! Analog pictures look good, too.


The problem is ....my rotor has issues. I hooked up the controller, started pointing it in different directions and didn't get a stinkin difference. Well... it moved a little bit. Now, it's sitting northeast as opposed to straight north. And this is after countless rotations by two different controllers. If that's not enough, I can't see the antenna from the house. I either have to walk up a steep hill to get to it (not fun in the rain) or run all the way back to the front of the yard (500ft) to see it.


If that's not enough, we don't have enough extension cords to go 250 ft to the antenna, where I could plug the controller directly into the cable splice.


I'm pissed.


Anybody have experience with these kinds of problems?


My gut says the rotor is binding or something mechanical.


----------



## w0en




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mattdp* /forum/post/14886866
> 
> 
> : a DIY Screened 75" x 30" Gray Hooverman for UHF, Wade UV-936SR for VHF (off my neighbor's roof) and a DIY FM antenna. .
> 
> 
> On the bottom, there's a 5' tripod (secured to three T-posts and planted on patio blocks) Mounted in the tripod is a 10' piece of EMT conduit (the biggest stuff that would fit, either 1 1/2" or 1 1/4"). The Channel Master rotor is about a foot from the top of this pole.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is ....my rotor has issues. I hooked up the controller, started pointing it in different directions and didn't get a stinkin difference. Well... it moved a little bit. Now, it's sitting northeast as opposed to straight north. And this is after countless rotations by two different controllers. If that's not enough, I can't see the antenna from the house. I either have to walk up a steep hill to get to it (not fun in the rain) or run all the way back to the front of the yard (500ft) to see it.
> 
> 
> If that's not enough, we don't have enough extension cords to go 250 ft to the antenna, where I could plug the controller directly into the cable splice.
> 
> 
> 
> Anybody have experience with these kinds of problems?
> 
> 
> My gut says the rotor is binding or something mechanical.



You could have a mechanical bind, sounds like you have a lot of weight with all the different antennas. Have you either measured the low voltage at the rotor after your 300 ft. run of #18 wire while it's turning or have a friend or family member turn it while you monitor to see if the motor is stalling. I'm guessing too much weight for too little voltage at the motor and it's stalling. Another thing is some of those have some kind of clutch in them, when you sync them they turn to 360 or zero and then run against the stop to get back to alignment. You may be fighting all three problems, you need another body to monitor or initiate the sequence while you're there to watch and listen. Or set up a video cam with minutes and seconds running and record it up there while you turn it.


----------



## mattdp

That's probably what I'm gonna do.


Voltage: Should be fine, because It's thicker than the CM recommended gauge for that length.


Controller issues: I've made sure that even if it was wired backwards, it would of gone somewhere.


I tested the setup (with all the antennas) while it was on the ground, and it worked, so I think the bearing and rotor aren't quite inline.


Anybody have real world experience with these issues?


----------



## bozey45

I assume it's the TB105 rotor bearing. There is a couple of postings somewhere that the bearing is easy to not align with a 1½ inch mast for some reason. Spacers have to be used to make up for a space difference so you might check that carefully to see that the mast is not binding with the bearing. I wish I could remember what forum that info was in. Search AVS forum for "rotor bearing" and see if it comes up. Meanwhile I'll try to find and see whats up. I have a rotor bearing myself and the CM rotor is on the way so I'll be dealing with this next week myself. Anyway check carefully the spacing bewteen the mast and bearing to see that they perfectly align.


----------



## MeowMeow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bozey45* /forum/post/14887803
> 
> 
> I assume it's the TB105 rotor bearing. There is a couple of postings somewhere that the bearing is easy to not align with a 1½ inch mast for some reason.



I used a similar size cast iron pipe with the 105 bearing and it wasn't an issue.


----------



## w0en




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MeowMeow* /forum/post/14888678
> 
> 
> I used a similar size cast iron pipe with the 105 bearing and it wasn't an issue.



He's using steel EMT conduit. I used the same stuff, 1-1/4 ID trade size and it was just a little oversized because of the casting flash seam on the inside of the bearing and I had to file on it a little to get mine to go through. He does have quite a load, the Wade antenna spec sheet says 16# all by itself without the homebrew 6' x 3' G-H antenna and homebrew FM antenna so he is taxing that small motor. I think the rotor control is timer based without feedback so if the motor runs slow it will stop short of where it needs to be. He's only got the bearing mounted a foot above the rotor so he could still be seeing a lot of side loading Others have cautioned about using that rotor with a 15# 4228 although I did it one year before I went to a 91-XG and 1713 Winegard without any problems. The bearing itself is sloppy and crude which is OK in this instance because of the dirty environment and temp extremes it runs in here in MN but with guy wires it could be seeing downward forces and angular misalignment from guy tension causing excess drag since he said it was working well on a test setup on the ground. As far as I know the 105 is the only readily available consumer product that is designed for TV stuff. Stepping up to ham gear is a major price bump and I've been following his projects for more than a year now so was pleased to see him get it set up. I know he worked hard burying cable and building,modifying,recycling and re-purposing used gear.


----------



## GutBuster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/14884730
> 
> 
> I think your apt complex is on Highland Ridge Rd just south-west of EW Connector...Right???
> 
> It appears you may have multiple apt units between you and the towers...Right???
> 
> If not, could you generally describe your surroundings and nearby cross streets?
> 
> 
> Good news: It's on the top of a hill.
> 
> Not so good news: shows all stations being single/double edge diffraction.
> 
> So indoor antennas are going to be a challenge, despite being only 10 miles away.
> 
> 
> You could try indoor location....preferable looking out a SE window...but attic is better.
> 
> 
> CM-4228 has a beamwidth of 20-30 degrees (narrower for higher channels).
> 
> You might have difficulties aligning the CM-4228 to receive stations scattered across
> 
> 24 degrees (107-131) and many would be operating at reduced gain on the sidelobes.
> 
> You could try it and if you have difficulties, you could add a rotator in the attic.
> 
> 
> However, I recommend trying any of the broader beamwidth 4-Bay antennas first.
> 
> If you want to receive WATC-DT towards 17 degrees, you'll need a rotator....
> 
> or a dual antenna system. However, with a 4-Bay it might come in on a sidelobe....
> 
> 
> Post-Feb2008 all of the primary stations will continue to be in UHF band,
> 
> incl. WPBS-DT (30.1) for PBS. A second PBS station, WGTV-DT goes to VHF Ch8,
> 
> which may or may not work with either CM-4228 or 4-Bay antenna. If you
> 
> decide it's worth the extra effort, you could add a VHF-only antenna such as
> 
> Winegard YA-1713, Antennacraft Y10-7-13 or Y5-7-13.
> 
> *Standard YMMV Disclaimer Applies.*
> 
> Indoor/Attic locations, esp. in Apt/Condo buildings with rebar/steel,
> 
> Aluminized moisture barrier wraps, et. al. are very difficult to predict...
> 
> esp. with other nearby buildings attenuating the signal.....
> 
> 
> PS: While trying to tri-laterate your LAT/LONG position, I noticed
> 
> results varied quite a bit for very small
> 
> changes (a few 100 feet) in your vicinity.....



Thank you for taking the time to offer some lengthy insight.


I must ask though.... how in the *WORLD*, did you pinpoint my location??? That's nuts.


Yes, my community is on the corner of highland and the east west connector, although it's townhouses and not apartments. From my knowledge there is only 1 significant town house community (within a couple of miles) in between mine and metro Atlanta. No notable tall trees or buildings.... I will have to pay more attention on my next cruise but I'm fairly sure there isn't too much.


----------



## holl_ands

It really helps when someone provides their location to whatever accuracy they're comfortable.

Precise address number or LAT/LON aren't needed, but nearby cross streets or LAT/LON

to at least three decimals allows us to quickly "look" around your area wrt terrain and other

buildings and check www.tvfool.com when a user hasn't already provided results .


I simply used www.antennaweb.org to tri-laterate your position by trying to replicate

the chart you provided. So many miles from each of 2 (or 3) directions.... Re-tweak cursor

position on the map a few times to fine tune. Cross check with GoogleEarth to find LAT/LONG

and tilt the map to look at buildings & terrain elevations. Practice makes it go a lot faster....


PS: I downloaded a *.kmz file from www.tvfool.com which overlays the

location of every TV/DTV tower in the U.S. (and borders) on top of GoogleEarth.


BTW: It also helps if you provide your location and perhaps equipment list by clicking

on "UserCP" at top of forum page. Click on any username to see Public Profile/About Me.


----------



## mattdp

Thanks for all the info, guys!!


The EMT conduit I'm using is thick enough that I, too had to do some serious filing and wire-wheeling to get it through the TB-105.


But with the guy wires, the antenna ain't goin' nowhere.


FWIW, I think the bearing is more like 18 inches up. I did it more by eye.


Were going up there in a few minutes to finish securing the tripod, re-tighten the guy wires and de-bug the rotor.


Let's just hope I didn't blow the rotor out










Also, if anyone has some old Ham Rotors and thrust bearings, I'd be glad to take them off your hands
























(I know a ham who knows another ham with a now defunct super huge moon-bounce array [on route 4 between Roch and Byron.]. I think his rotor would be big enough







)


----------



## Digital Rules

Don't overtighten the guy wires. You need to let it breathe a little.


----------



## MAX HD

Further,that bearing is designed for a U105 rotor,not a CM.They both have elliptical orbit patterns that may differ slightly.I'd spread them 3-4ft,and the optimal size pipe would be around 1-3/8" O.D. for best center rotation.I use the CM 9523 bearing with 1-5/8" OD Alum with no problems after 4-5yrs.With large arrays too.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/14891869
> 
> 
> Don't overtighten the guy wires. You need to let it breathe a little.



That is a non-issue if the antenna mast is plumb.All the downward stress is on the bearing,not the rotor.


----------



## mattdp

Just to give you all an update...


We found that the mast wasn't level and the bearing and the rotor were out of alignment with each other. We loosened the rotor and found that the antenna wanted to one spot and also it starting binding or something around a certain spot.


After leveling the mast and aligning the rotor with the bearing, spins freely.


Tomorrow, we'll hook up the rotor and test it out.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mattdp* /forum/post/14894526
> 
> 
> Just to give you all an update...
> 
> 
> We found that the mast wasn't level and the bearing and the rotor were out of alignment with each other. We loosened the rotor and found that the antenna wanted to one spot and also it starting binding or something around a certain spot.
> 
> 
> After leveling the mast and aligning the rotor with the bearing, spins freely.
> 
> 
> Tomorrow, we'll hook up the rotor and test it out.



Any way to post a pic?


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/14892540
> 
> 
> That is a non-issue if the antenna mast is plumb.All the downward stress is on the bearing,not the rotor.



Rotor, or no rotor; it's never a good idea to _over_-tighten guy wires.


----------



## electrictroy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/14884730
> 
> 
> You could try indoor location....preferable looking out a SE window...but attic is better.



If his apartment is like my old apartment he won't have access to the attic. He'll have to put it inside his room.


And the best option is to go with "bigger is better" like the CM4228-HD, which can receive channels 7 through 69.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/14898845
> 
> 
> Rotor, or no rotor; it's never a good idea to _over_-tighten guy wires.



That's correct. 10% of the breaking strength is the standard.


----------



## rmahlert

Hello,


Looking for some suggestions.


I'm 50-55 miles from the Boston stations at 77* (true) on the tvfool image below and I'm in hilly terrain. TVFool says I'm in the fringe(purple in my area) according to the coverage maps I've looked at for the Boston stations. I have a Antennas Direct ClearStream 4 and have been testing it before I mount it on the roof. I can receive a few digital stations from Boston, WCVB and WHDH with it on my deck pointed towards the towers with a 25ft cable. During the day the signal is weak and night I get perfect reception. On my Panny plasma it's signal meter is in the 20-35% range during the day and 55-70% at night. From what I can tell my Panny needs at least 40-45% signal to be watchable.


My main goal is to receive the Boston stations(77*) and then the 'local' Springfield stations(290*). The Springfield stations are not bad now with the antenna on the deck and the broadcast direction is almost from the opposite side of the Boston towers, my guess is on the roof I'll get them fine with the antenna pointing towards Boston. The house might be blocking the Springfield signals. I really have no desire for the Hartford stations(225*), they don't offer me local news and weather.


I'm thinking a second antenna and an amp, which I have ordered a Channel Master 7778. Any suggestions to improve the Boston reception? WHEN it goes on the roof, it will be a 30-40' cable to the basement, at which I plan to use a distribution amplifier to my tv's over rg6 cable lines. It's roughly 25' more to my main setup, a Panny Plasma and my SageTV Box with a Hauppauge 1600 tuner.











One other questions.. if you look at the list. WBZ DT of Boston broadcast on UHF 30 and WVIT-TV(analog) of Hartford is on UHF 30.. so, no WBZ DT until the Hartford analog goes offline in February?


Thanks!

RobM


----------



## holl_ands

Receiving Boston (azimuth 77 degrees) Post-Feb2009 is very unlikely.


ATSC needs more than 15 dB D/U ratio co-channel DTV and "should"

receive desired signal with an adjacent DTV that is 33 dB STRONGER.

(D=Desired, U=Undesired, see ATSC A/74 for more details)


1. Boston Ch19 & Ch20 will be blocked by stronger Ch19 and can't be

overcome by the sidelobe suppression ratio of available antennas.


2. Boston Ch7 is co-channel with stronger Ch7 (223 degrees) and can't

be adequately suppressed. (VHF antennas do not have large F/B ratios).


3. Boston Ch30 is adjacent to stronger Ch29 & Ch31 which can't be

adequately suppressed.


Even if you didn't have co-channel and adjacent channel problems,

signal levels are probably too weak to be received anyway....


CURRENTLY, very strong WUNI on Ch29 prevents reception of adjacent

Ch30 for either WBZ-DT or WVIT-TV. Rerun TVFool to check levels.


----------



## jstachowiak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/14870624
> 
> 
> Thanks for the additional info; it's a big help. Here's a two-antenna system that should serve you well:
> 
> 
> * CM 4221 UHF antenna, mounted above a CM 9521 rotor. This narrow antenna mounts vertically, allowing for rotation in a confined space.
> 
> 
> * Antennas Direct Y5-7-13 VHF-high antenna on a second mount lower than, and several feet away from, the 4221. It mounts horizontally and is five feet long by three feet wide max. Channels 8.1 and 13.1 are only 12 degrees apart, so this antenna won't need to be rotated. These are the only two VHF stations you'll likely receive from any attic-mounted antenna. Aim the antenna 8 degrees to the north of due west.
> 
> 
> * Make sure there are no major metal structures (roofing nails excepted) in front of either antenna. This includes metal ducts/vents, air handlers, even rain gutters outside. Aiming through brick, aluminum siding or stucco (bonded to the wall with steel mesh) are also no-nos.
> 
> 
> * Couple the antennas on one downlead with a UVSJ band separator/combiner. UVSJs lose much less signal than splitters used in reverse and have signal-conditioning capabilities splitters lack. They're no more expensive, either.
> 
> 
> * I don't think a pre-amp will be necessary for two tuners. It's worth trying out the antennas before you buy one. Be sure to screw coax terminators onto any unused splitter ports in your patch panel to prevent signal loss or extra reflections.
> 
> 
> * When you're ready to put three or four TVs on the antenna system, a low-power pre-amp like Winegard HDP-269 will be sufficient to overcome resulting cable and splitter losses. Insert the amplifier module after the UVSJ, and the power injector before the splitter.
> 
> 
> The 4221 doesn't have the 4228's gain, but it's more than sufficient for your signal environment. The Y5, meanwhile, is stronger on VHF. I've more or less described my own attic system (minus the HDP-269) as our signal-strength figures are very similar, and this works well here for two tuners.



Thanks Don_M, I purchased two Antennas Direct Y5-7-13 VHF-high antennas, one for each Flat Screen and another DB2 for UHF and combined the VHF and UHF for each TV with the UVSJ, everything is in the attic, I've got a large attic, and reception improved over my rabbit ears combined with the DB2. Looks good. Thanks again.


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rmahlert* /forum/post/14925701
> 
> 
> I'm 50-55 miles from the Boston stations at 77* (true) on the tvfool image below and I'm in hilly terrain. TVFool says I'm in the fringe(purple in my area) according to the coverage maps I've looked at for the Boston stations.



The bottom of your TVFool report explains what the background colors mean. To repeat, here's what it says for the stations in "purple:"



> Quote:
> These channels are very weak and will most likely require extreme measures to try and pick them up



What does TVFool mean by extreme measures? Here are some examples:


* A tall tower (at least 60 feet)

* Professional-grade antennas. That lets out the C4.

* CATV-quality pre-amps and distribution amps.


This stuff can easily cost thousands. Even at that, the Boston stations are so weak, there's no guarantee top-of-the-line everything will pull them in.


----------



## rmahlert

Well.. the ClearStream4 with the CM7777 is pulling in the Boston DT stations fine in the 65-85% signal strength on my Panny plasma's signal meter. All but 2 come in.. WBZ-DT is on a UHF channel that is in use in Hartford for an analog station and the other I read has issues with the DT transmitter. From what I can tell, WFXT won't have it's full power DT transmitter up and running until after the DT transition. But, I do get a good picture on the analog WFXT channel 25.


All this is off my back deck.. I still plan to mount it on the roof which is 20 feet higher. I guess I have a sweet spot on my deck. In all, I have 34 DT channels (including sub-channels) from Boston, Springfield, MA and Hartford, CT


RobM


----------



## Don_M

TVFool has to be way, way off for your location. It happens.


Another 20 feet of height will be a great help. The higher, the better. But try your current C4 and the pre-amp up there first before adding another antenna. You may find the added height is all you need.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rmahlert* /forum/post/14933918
> 
> 
> Well.. the ClearStream4 with the CM7777 is pulling in the Boston DT stations fine in the 65-85% signal strength on my Panny plasma's signal meter. All but 2 come in.. WBZ-DT is on a UHF channel that is in use in Hartford for an analog station and the other I read has issues with the DT transmitter. From what I can tell, WFXT won't have it's full power DT transmitter up and running until after the DT transition. But, I do get a good picture on the analog WFXT channel 25.
> 
> 
> All this is off my back deck.. I still plan to mount it on the roof which is 20 feet higher. I guess I have a sweet spot on my deck. In all, I have 34 DT channels (including sub-channels) from Boston, Springfield, MA and Hartford, CT
> 
> 
> RobM



As you mentioned in your earlier post, your house may be partially blocking the

interfering stations...if so, situation may get worse (or better....) on a mast...YMMV...


Also bear in mind that the TVFool results you posted were for Post-Feb2009,

hence our discussion has been wrt Post-Feb2009. Current results are somewhat different....


----------



## taxman48

Good indoor FM anternna:


Can anyone recommend a good FM antenna (indoor) for a receiver? Still listen to FM even though we live in an Ipod/XM world..I hate to put up one of those T plastic antennas.. thanks in advance..


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *taxman48* /forum/post/14939296
> 
> 
> Good indoor FM anternna:
> 
> 
> Can anyone recommend a good FM antenna (indoor) for a receiver? Still listen to FM even though we live in an Ipod/XM world..I hate to put up one of those T plastic antennas.. thanks in advance..



Rabbit ears.


----------



## holl_ands

*FM ANTENNA SUMMARY:*


Here's a DIY FM Bi-Directional Loop Antenna:
http://www.wryr.org/Antenna_instructions.pdf 

FM Loop modeling results:
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/cploop.htm 
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/attic.htm 

A loop has significantly more gain than a simple dipole (rabbit ears) or bowtie.


DIY FM Omnidirectional Vertical "Bowtie" with modeling results:
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/omni.htm 

Or turn it on it's side for Horizontal operations.

Bowtie improves VSWR, hence is somewhat better than rabbit ears.


And "optimized" Bi-Directional Rabbit Ears for comparison:
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/rabbit.htm 


Depository of FM Antenna Modeling results:
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/ 

and a comparison chart:
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/curves.htm 


=========================================

Wary of the Terk (uurrpp) offerings? I would avoid amplified antennas

if there are nearby towers (say 10-20 miles), check www.fmfool.com 

NPR Labs was even bit by an overloaded amplified antenna:
http://www.nprlabs.org/publications/...ntennas_MS.pdf 

[Duh...of course an unamplified antenna is best with nearby FM towers....]


Here are some alternatives:


A classic review article from 10 years ago (jump to pg 57 in Adobe Reader):
http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_i...ritic_23_r.pdf 

Note the highly rated man-sized "indoor" FM antennas from AudioPrism
http://www.audioprism.com/products%202.html 

and here's another man-sized "Attic InTenna" antenna:
http://www.antennaperformance.com/ 

These both appear to be Vertical Bowtie antennas.


Stereophile magazine recommendations (Apr 2007):
http://www.stereophile.com/features/0407recommended/ 

Note low cost Radio-Shack models....


Summary of Outdoor FM Antenna specs and Indoor Antenna comparison:
http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/antennas.html 


Although lacking WAF, Magnum-Dynalab Silver Ribbon has bizarro-techno appeal:
http://www.gcaudio.com/products/reviews/infomagnum.html 
http://www.magnumdynalab.com/fmantennas-sr100.htm 
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/80697 

It's a TUNABLE folded dipole antenna.


M-D also make the simple, non-tunable, overpriced ST-2 loaded whip,

which is similar to Fanfare FM-2G:
http://www.fanfarefm.com/fm-2g-buy.html 

BTW: Vertical Whip antenna works best when mounted over some sort of

conducting ground plane with a radius at least as much as the whip height.

Chicken wire or aluminum foil covered wood will work just fine.

Metal rain gutters are a not-quite-as-good substitute....


Several hi-tech mags raved about the passive, low profile Godar FM-1A:
http://www.godarusa.com/id67.html 
http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/t.pl?f=tuner&m=759 

It's a Log Periodic antenna with coverage from FM thru Lo-VHF and UHF TV bands.


Some people report good results with Crane FM Reflect Bi-Directional Folded Dipole,

although it seems to be nothing special...and can't be tuned to desired freq range:
http://www.amazon.com/C-Crane-FM-Ref.../dp/B000EFHPKO


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I guess I have a sweet spot on my deck.



You may have. Do you have aluminum siding ?


----------



## rmahlert




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14948372
> 
> 
> You may have. Do you have aluminum siding ?



Nope.. Vinyl siding with wood underneath.


I have to borrow a larger ladder, so I hope to get the antenna on the roof next weekend. With my test on the deck I'm very happy with the results and hope they improve going higher.


RobM


----------



## PCTools

FWIW - I have had 2 failed CM7777 Pre-Amps in the last 3 months.


I observe the termination is an open when ohming out the 75 ohm cable at the back of the television prior to insertion into the pre-amp. I verified the power supply, and it has 22Vdc.


I am just tired of climbing the tired and putting up my trusty Winegard in place of it, until I order a replacement.


I have had NO Electrical storms, yet do not understand why these keep failing on my stack.


Any ideas?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I verified the power supply, and it has 22Vdc. Any ideas ?



I assume you checked out the grounding block.


On my CM0264, I checked out the specs on the only transistor in it, and it was rated at 20VDC max. My Channel Master power supply, which looks to be the same one as yours, only puts out 18VDC at no load. So your power supply may be kicking out too much voltage, which may be great for a while for the additional gain from more voltage, but doesnt add to longevity.


----------



## b1gmoose

So I live in a fringe area and life pretty much isn't good for OTA. But I have managed to get some.


I have a 30' mast with dual 91XG's and a YA1713 VHF-Hi going into a CM7777. Currently, I have a 95' run from the mast top to the basement of RG11, soon to be replaced by 3/4" hardline. I have a DTT900 Zenith setop box.


I have adequate reception on all of the UHF channels I want to receive. The hardline will hopefully fix an issue with WFFF-DT on UHF43, only comes in at night and has occasional hiccups in the signal.


Now back to the VHF problem. The winegard YA1713 is a decent antenna, but it just does not have enough gain on VHF 13 to receive WVNY-DT from 45 miles away. All other stations at that location come in fine and dandy.


I've looked at the Wade/Delhi antennas, and those monsters are cool, but they might be toooo much for my antenna mast.


Are there any other VHF-Hi or just CH13 yagi antennas out there with more gain than the YA1713?


Does anybody have a list of dimensions and parts so I could build one? I'm handy with tools, but not so handy with math anymore involved than a tapemeasure.


Thanks,


~ryan


----------



## nybbler

According to the HDTV Primer site, the YA-1713 is particularly bad for channel 13 -- response is not flat at all and gain drops to almost nothing by the upper edge of the channel. Even the modest-size Radio Shack combos are better. A single-channel Yagi should do the trick, or you can use a combo just for VHF.


I doubt hardline will be that much better than RG-11, but if you're willing to use such extreme measures, one of those Research Communications pre-amps might be worth a try. They claim 0.4dB noise, which might do the trick on UHF 43, if there's signal receivable during the day at all.


----------



## b1gmoose




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/14959901
> 
> 
> According to the HDTV Primer site, the YA-1713 is particularly bad for channel 13 -- response is not flat at all and gain drops to almost nothing by the upper edge of the channel. Even the modest-size Radio Shack combos are better. A single-channel Yagi should do the trick, or you can use a combo just for VHF.
> 
> 
> I doubt hardline will be that much better than RG-11, but if you're willing to use such extreme measures, one of those Research Communications pre-amps might be worth a try. They claim 0.4dB noise, which might do the trick on UHF 43, if there's signal receivable during the day at all.



I might have to look at a VHF/UHF combo with good gain for just ch 13 :-/ .... maybe that with a jointenna or just a ch 13 antenna and a jointenna.


The hardline is free for me. Just a matter of going to get it.


Looking up the specs on the RG11 installed and the 3/4" hardline to be installed, looks like I can gain a few db in the UHF area. It might not help much in the VHF. So UHF 43 should be good to go during the day, hopefully.


I'm using commscope 2285K RG11 and will have commscope 750 series P3 hardline.


Channels I'm interested in

Ch 7 is 174 Mhz

RG 11 approx loss per 100' is 1.5 db

3/4" hardline approx loss per 100' is 0.6 db

Diff is 0.9 db


Ch 13 is 210 Mhz

RG 11 approx loss per 100' is 2.0 db

3/4" hardline approx loss per 100' is 0.74 db

Diff is 1.26 db


Ch 14 is 471 Mhz

RG 11 approx loss per 100' is 2.8 db

3/4" hardline approx loss per 100' is 1.15 db

Diff is 1.65 db


Ch 22 is 519 Mhz

RG 11 approx loss per 100' is 2.9 db

3/4" hardline approx loss per 100' is 1.2 db

Diff is 1.7 db


Ch 32 is 579 Mhz

RG 11 approx loss per 100' is 3.0 db

3/4" hardline approx loss per 100' is 1.28 db

Diff is 1.72 db


Ch 43 is 645 Mhz

RG 11 approx loss per 100' is 3.7 db

3/4" hardline approx loss per 100' is 1.35 db

Diff is 2.35 db


Ch 55 is 717 Mhz

RG 11 approx loss per 100' is 4.0 db

3/4" hardline approx loss per 100' is 1.4 db

Diff is 2.6 db


Ch 60 is 747 Mhz

RG 11 approx loss per 100' is 4.25 db

3/4" hardline approx loss per 100' is 1.48 db

Diff is 2.77 db


From hdtvprimer.com


20 dB = gain factor of 100

10 dB = gain factor of 10

3 dB = gain factor of 2 (actually 1.995)

0 dB = no gain or loss

-1 dB = a 20% loss of signal

-3 dB = a 50% loss of signal

-10 dB = a 90% loss of signal


So it looks like I'll have a 20%-40% increase in signal.


As far as the research communication pre-amp goes, I'm considering it, but I may have to wait for a taxreturn and wife factor approval to get it.


~ryan


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Looking up the specs on the RG11 installed and the 3/4" hardline to be installed, looks like I can gain a few db in the UHF area.



But you already have a CM7777 preamp that should make up for those losses. I wouldnt expect much from all that additional work installing the hardline.


----------



## b1gmoose




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14960483
> 
> 
> But you already have a CM7777 preamp that should make up for those losses. I wouldnt expect much from all that additional work installing the hardline.



The pre-amp amplifies the signal at the mast head. I still have 95' of cable to the basement. There will be losses there. Almost every analog and digital channel in my area starts out at a negative noise margin.


Hardline is solid aluminum shield and suitable for direct burial, so it's not that much work to dig a trench 12" deep. I already have conduit out there, but it's only 1.5", so it won't pull very well through it. But the RG11 will feed a new FM antenna so my Wife can listen to some Canadian radio.


But again, my biggest problem is VHF channel 13. The cost of the wade units are quite high, and that's if they even have them in stock.


Blonder Tongue isn't much better in that price range.


The YA1713 works fine for the other channels, just not 13. Does anybody know where I can get a sub-$150 channel cut antenna with decent gain?


Or what I would need to do to build one?


Thanks,


~ryan


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *b1gmoose* /forum/post/14960517
> 
> 
> The pre-amp amplifies the signal at the mast head. I still have 95' of cable to the basement. There will be losses there. Almost every analog and digital channel in my area starts out at a negative noise margin.
> 
> 
> Hardline is solid aluminum shield and suitable for direct burial, so it's not that much work to dig a trench 12" deep. I already have conduit out there, but it's only 1.5", so it won't pull very well through it. But the RG11 will feed a new FM antenna so my Wife can listen to some Canadian radio.
> 
> 
> But again, my biggest problem is VHF channel 13. The cost of the wade units are quite high, and that's if they even have them in stock.
> 
> 
> Blonder Tongue isn't much better in that price range.
> 
> 
> The YA1713 works fine for the other channels, just not 13. Does anybody know where I can get a sub-$150 channel cut antenna with decent gain?
> 
> 
> Or what I would need to do to build one?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> ~ryan



I have 3 of the big psp.1922 highbanders remaining.They do well on 13,about 2-3db better gain than the YA10-7-13.PM me if you want one.


Pic courtesy of cpcat (top antenna)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...1&d=1111454199


----------



## b1gmoose




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/14960907
> 
> 
> I have 3 of the big psp.1922 highbanders remaining.They do well on 13,about 2-3db better gain than the YA10-7-13.PM me if you want one.
> 
> 
> Pic courtesy of cpcat (top antenna)
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...1&d=1111454199



Wow, 156" and 174 - 230 Mhz. Perfect for VHF-Hi with an average gain of 14 db. That's similar to the gain specs of the 91XG. This is about 3 - 4 db higher gain than the winegard.


Sent you a PM.


Thanks!


~ryan


----------



## alcook2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *philherz* /forum/post/14819251
> 
> For the last 4 weeks, my parents have been using a Radio Shack 15-1878 to pick up the top 6 channels at their apartment as listed in the tvfool printout. (Their apartment is in a complex and there's a highway noise barrier close by.)
> 
> 
> Used trial and error to get it to work...TV tuner doesn't show signal strength.
> 
> 
> The hardest to get is WKBW and it worked great until it didn't come in last night and my father "adjusted" the antenna and really screwed it royal!
> 
> 
> Thanks!!
> 
> 
> We find that the circular part of the antenna works best when it lays almost horizontal with the table it's on.
> 
> 
> I've been following this thread for 2 months but I'm totally lost! Should I try to add a 2nd antenna just to get WKBW or replace the 15-1878??? (Outdoor antenna is not a possibility)



Try one of the new RCA "Flat hangs on wall" HDTV antennas from Walmart $14.88. Hang it high on the wall; experiment with different locations. Point it towards Colden. Use 12' black Philips RG6 cable also from Walmart.


----------



## b1gmoose

After a few days of searching for a VHF-Hi solution for post Feb 2008 transition, Max HD told me to look at the Funke PSP.1922 VHF Highbander.


It may save a few dozen newbies or so new posts to http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=381623 with questions about VHF-Hi fringe reception if this antenna were added to the list on the 1st post of this sticky.


Here is the link to their PDF for the antenna. Average of 14 db gain over 174 - 230 Mhz.


Thanks,


~ryan


----------



## philherz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alcook2* /forum/post/14961291
> 
> 
> Try one of the new RCA "Flat hangs on wall" HDTV antennas from Walmart $14.88. Hang it high on the wall; experiment with different locations. Point it towards Colden. Use 12' black Philips RG6 cable also from Walmart.



Craziest thing happened....I inserted an A/B switch that I had just in case my parents wanted to watch any of their 12 cable channels they get with their $9/month lifeline cable plan.


Instantly the reception on their Radio Shack 15-1878 improved 100%.


Haven't had to do anything since, other than a very minor adjustment to the rabbit ears on occasion.


----------



## bodie1

I have an old CM 0063B preamp that I'm using on an old but good CM antenna. It is a 300 ohm model. It is working very well for me. I was wondering if anyone could tell me where I might find specs for it. It is from the 1970's. All it says on it is that it is 117V 60hz 4 watts. I want to know the db gain and noise factor. I don't have any testing equipment. I am using a DS 9950 converter box. When I added this preamp my signal strength on my weakest channel (52) went from 30's and 40's on the meter up to 60's and 70's. And that's after switching from RG6 to twin lead down to the power supply.







So it must be a good one. Any info on this model would be appreciated !

This a great website !


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/14956401
> 
> 
> To make myself more clear.
> 
> 
> Solid copper coax is recommended when passing voltage from point A to point B in the system. I have seen instances where the preamp seemed to have failed but in actuallity it did not. replacing the coax with solid copper fixed the problem. I recently encountered this problem even with a winegard preamp. replaced the coax and everything worked fine. The owner thought he purchased solid copper from radio shack, loews (not sure) and it was not.
> 
> 
> The other thing to check for is a short...braid to center conductor, poorly seated fitting, corrosion, water ingress, etc.
> 
> 
> You are getting bad information if you read or think that the coax does not make a difference. It does especially in this case..



There appears to be RG6 with solid copper, solid copper covered steel,

copper clad steel and even copper clad aluminum:
http://www.twacomm.com/catalog/sort_...duct_brand.htm 


The shield braid can also be either copper, steel or aluminum.


And then there is the optional aluminized mylar foil for 100% double shield.


Can you be a little more specific???


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/14950740
> 
> 
> FWIW - I have had 2 failed CM7777 Pre-Amps in the last 3 months.
> 
> 
> I observe the termination is an open when ohming out the 75 ohm cable at the back of the television prior to insertion into the pre-amp. I verified the power supply, and it has 22Vdc.
> 
> 
> Any ideas?



Have you varified what the voltage is at the preamp end of the coax?

If you have a long run of rg6 with a copper clad steel core you may be getting a voltage drop large enough to cause problems do to the poor conductive properties of steel compared to copper. Since RF rides on the skin of the conductor the copper flashing is good enough for the TV signal but the DC current needed to power the preamp could suffer from the losses in the steel core. That is the reason why it has been suggested that you use solid copper core.


All that being said if you do have a low voltage problem I don't think that it will damage the preamp, electronics is very rarely damaged by low voltage.


Have you checked them out once you have taken them down?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Have you varified what the voltage is at the preamp end of the coax?



Good point, Ill have to check out and note my voltage at the preamp end and note it for future reference.


But from what PCTools wrote, it looks like he may have too high of a voltage going to it.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bodie1* /forum/post/14964132
> 
> 
> I have an old CM 0063B preamp. I was wondering if anyone could tell me where I might find specs for it. It is from the 1970's. All it says on it is that it is 117V 60hz 4 watts. I want to know the db gain and noise factor.



I couldn't find the CM 0063B, but I did find the CM 0063C in the 1985 CM catalog:

Typical dB Gain: VHF Lo 16 dB, FM 15 dB, VHF Hi 17 dB, UHF 22 dB

Noise Figure: VHF Lo 3.0 dB, VHF Hi 3.8 dB, UHF 3.5 to 6.5 dB


Somebody at Channel Master might have an older catalog.


----------



## Mariouchie

Thanks for all the great posts and experiences.


I haven't been able to find an answer to my question though ... I have an RCA CANT2020 omni with built-in amplifier currently in my attic. It's been pretty solid until about 3 weeks ago, 50.1 and 4.1 completely fell off (I live in Windsor, Canada right accross from MI). I have a CM 7777 on the way which I will use with a borrowed 4 bay bow-tie, but can I hook up my omni to the 7777 VHF jack or will I fry the antenna or pre-amp?


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14967949
> 
> 
> 
> But from what PCTools wrote, it looks like he may have too high of a voltage going to it.



Definitely. The CM-0747 is a simple linear supply, there's no way it should put out 22VDC even under no load. It's probably not actually doing so, more likely the big electrolytic failed and its putting out a lot of ripple. Not good for the pre-amp either way.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I have a CM 7777 on the way which I will use with a borrowed 4 bay bow-tie, but can I hook up my omni to the 7777 VHF jack or will I fry the antenna or pre-amp?



I wouldnt. Just use the CM7777 and the 4 bay bowtie combo by itself. I dont know about frying it, but you may decrease the performance of both antennas by combining them.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I couldn't find the CM 0063B, but I did find the CM 0063C in the 1985 CM catalog:
> 
> Typical dB Gain: VHF Lo 16 dB, FM 15 dB, VHF Hi 17 dB, UHF 22 dB
> 
> Noise Figure: VHF Lo 3.0 dB, VHF Hi 3.8 dB, UHF 3.5 to 6.5 dB



Heh, the CM0064 is not much better. Not much improvement in over 30 years.


----------



## Mariouchie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/14969841
> 
> 
> I wouldnt. Just use the CM7777 and the 4 bay bowtie combo by itself. I dont know about frying it, but you may decrease the performance of both antennas by combining them.



Thanks, I was thinking of that, but then what about VHF? The omni picks up UHF & VHF, so I can't combine the two ... right?


----------



## PCTools

Sounds like this maybe the problem. The origianlly failing pre-amp was sent back to CM for examination. They confirmed that this pre-amp was in-fact good. I put up the replacement and it lasted about 30 days. Put up the Windgard in place of the 2nd failed pre-amp, and it worked fine.


So, if there was a problem in the coax I would doubt that buy changing the the pre-amp to the Winguard and installing it, and then she works would identify the coax is bad. Maybe, it has an intermittent issue. This is the RG6 stuff. From what I noticed, everytime the CM amp fails, I crawl on the tower, and replace it with the Winguard and everything works.


More to follow, as I continue to troubleshoot.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/14956401
> 
> 
> To make myself more clear.
> 
> 
> Solid copper coax is recommended when passing voltage from point A to point B in the system. I have seen instances where the preamp seemed to have failed but in actuallity it did not. replacing the coax with solid copper fixed the problem. I recently encountered this problem even with a winegard preamp. replaced the coax and everything worked fine. The owner thought he purchased solid copper from radio shack, loews (not sure) and it was not.
> 
> 
> The other thing to check for is a short...braid to center conductor, poorly seated fitting, corrosion, water ingress, etc.
> 
> 
> You are getting bad information if you read or think that the coax does not make a difference. It does especially in this case..


----------



## PCTools

I need to determine the rated output of this pre-amp power supply. My measurements were taken 3 foot of the transformer and yielded 22 Volts. I thought they were supposed to be around 18V. I swapped out 2 pre-amps and just used the same power supply. Perhaps, my problem is with the power supply.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/14969164
> 
> 
> Definitely. The CM-0747 is a simple linear supply, there's no way it should put out 22VDC even under no load. It's probably not actually doing so, more likely the big electrolytic failed and its putting out a lot of ripple. Not good for the pre-amp either way.


----------



## The Hound




> Quote:
> Thanks, I was thinking of that, but then what about VHF? The omni picks up UHF & VHF, so I can't combine the two ... right?



If the omni has seperate VHF and UHF outs just connect the VHF out to the VHF side of the CM7777.

If you just connect 2 UHF antennas you could have issues with multipath or ghosting.


----------



## bodie1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/14967997
> 
> 
> I couldn't find the CM 0063B, but I did find the CM 0063C in the 1985 CM catalog:
> 
> Typical dB Gain: VHF Lo 16 dB, FM 15 dB, VHF Hi 17 dB, UHF 22 dB
> 
> Noise Figure: VHF Lo 3.0 dB, VHF Hi 3.8 dB, UHF 3.5 to 6.5 dB
> 
> 
> Somebody at Channel Master might have an older catalog.



Thanks for the info rabbit ! I guess the 0063B is not as good as I thought if it is similar to the 0063C. Your info does help me if and when this preamp "dies". At least I have an idea of what kind of new one I will need. I'm not sure how to get in contact with someone at Channel Master. I'll go back and check their website.


----------



## AntAltMike

I think the Channel Master 0063, 0064 and 0065 are in unshielded cases, whereas the 77XX preamps are in tight metal cases. That makes a difference if you are very near a TV station or even an FM radio tower.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mariouchie* /forum/post/14968696
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the great posts and experiences.
> 
> 
> I haven't been able to find an answer to my question though ... I have an RCA CANT2020 omni with built-in amplifier currently in my attic. It's been pretty solid until about 3 weeks ago, 50.1 and 4.1 completely fell off (I live in Windsor, Canada right accross from MI). I have a CM 7777 on the way which I will use with a borrowed 4 bay bow-tie, but can I hook up my omni to the 7777 VHF jack or will I fry the antenna or pre-amp?



We need your location, to whatever precision you chose (LAT/LONG and/or cross streets)

in order to determine distance to nearby towers and thereby advise whether

you are "too close" to use ANY amplified antenna or Preamp. For sure, do NOT

use an amplified antenna and THEN pass the output through a CM-7777 Preamp....

It will surely overload with so many towers surrounding you....


It would also help if you could post ALL CHANNELS results for your location

from www.tvfool.com and indicate which stations you DO and DON'T receive

with each antenna (ignoring stations you don't care about).

And which of the VHF stations can be received with the 4-Bay (with and

without a Preamp)....


From this we could see if you might want to try a 4-Bay without it's reflector...or whatever....


Google didn't say very much re RCA CANT-2020, but did find non-amplified ANT-2020:
http://www.globalsources.com/gsol/I/...1004775164.htm 


Can you describe your RCA antenna and whether it has VHF coverage?

It might be similar to one of the following:
http://staytuned2tv.com/ 

Note that when horizontal, they have omni coverage:
http://staytuned2tv.com/resources/brochure_english.pdf 

Unfortunately, RCA doesn't say what pattern is when hung vertically....


===========================

If you are NOT "too close", and are happy with the 4-Bay directionality for UHF,

you could use a UVSJ Combiner to combine UHF 4-Bay & Preamp OUTPUT

with the (VHF only) output of the amplified OMNI:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=UVSJ 
http://www.hollandelectronics.com/ca...-Diplexers.pdf 
http://yhst-18278607509093.stores.ya...pico-0389.html 

Both P-M and Holland UVSJ pass DC only on the VHF port and block it on UHF port.


Note: You have to be VERY careful wrt how the Preamp and the OMNI get

DC voltage via each Power Insertion Module.

Power for OMNI goes THROUGH UVSJ, whereas CM-7777 Power Insertion Module

is located BETWEEN Preamp and UVSJ (meaning you need an attic AC outlet).


I would advise trying the UVSJ, except initially WITHOUT the CM-7777 Preamp.


If you chose to go down this path, let me know and I could send a diagram.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/14970484
> 
> 
> I need to determine the rated output of this pre-amp power supply. My measurements were taken 3 foot of the transformer and yielded 22 Volts. I thought they were supposed to be around 18V. I swapped out 2 pre-amps and just used the same power supply. Perhaps, my problem is with the power supply.



By opening up the power supply, you can see if the big cap is bulging and or leaking. A lot of Taiwanese caps made in 2001-2002 had bad electrolyte and will fail early.


----------



## Mariouchie




holl_ands said:


> We need your location, to whatever precision you chose (LAT/LONG and/or cross streets)
> 
> in order to determine distance to nearby towers and thereby advise whether
> 
> you are "too close" to use ANY amplified antenna or Preamp. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Thanks for the great answer ... here are my answers in sections. This attachment shows my lat and long (couldn't see how to paste the pic in the post).


----------



## Mariouchie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/14974612
> 
> 
> Google didn't say very much re RCA CANT-2020, but did find non-amplified ANT-2020:
> http://www.globalsources.com/gsol/I/...1004775164.htm
> 
> 
> Can you describe your RCA antenna and whether it has VHF coverage?
> 
> It might be similar to one of the following:
> http://staytuned2tv.com/
> 
> Note that when horizontal, they have omni coverage:
> http://staytuned2tv.com/resources/brochure_english.pdf
> 
> Unfortunately, RCA doesn't say what pattern is when hung vertically....



Well, my antenna doesn't look much like any of those. These attachments are pictures of the manual which shows it's specs and what it looks like.


I have also attached a quick cryptic sketch of my set-up. I have my 4-way currently bypassed, and my length of coax is under 90ft.


----------



## Mariouchie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/14974612
> 
> 
> It would also help if you could post ALL CHANNELS results for your location
> 
> from www.tvfool.com and indicate which stations you DO and DON'T receive
> 
> with each antenna (ignoring stations you don't care about).
> 
> And which of the VHF stations can be received with the 4-Bay (with and
> 
> without a Preamp)....
> 
> 
> From this we could see if you might want to try a 4-Bay without it's reflector...or whatever....
> 
> 
> Note: You have to be VERY careful wrt how the Preamp and the OMNI get
> 
> DC voltage via each Power Insertion Module.
> 
> Power for OMNI goes THROUGH UVSJ, whereas CM-7777 Power Insertion Module
> 
> is located BETWEEN Preamp and UVSJ (meaning you need an attic AC outlet).
> 
> 
> I would advise trying the UVSJ, except initially WITHOUT the CM-7777 Preamp.
> 
> 
> If you chose to go down this path, let me know and I could send a diagram.




Okay, attached here is one file showing stations in my area (digital only) and the other shows digital and analog.


A diagram is always helpful in my books.


I hope everything I've supplied you is what you required. Thanks again.


----------



## holl_ands

A few clarifications before I look at the data....


It appears you used an East Detroit zipcode (48214) in above posted tvfool results.

Your actual location will have quite different results...


On the "Windsor, Canada" map, the LAT/LONG listed in the next line is actually in

Detroit at the location of the "pin" symbol.

Perhaps the mapping program doesn't work correctly for Canada....

no problem, we can do much better....


Using GoogleEarth to locate & convert units, the location you marked on the map is about

42-14-53N by 82-58-09W, which is 42.2481 by -82.9692 (within a few 100 meters).


Here are TVFool results for your location:


----------



## holl_ands

And here are Post-Feb2009 TVFool results:


----------



## Mariouchie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/14977808
> 
> 
> A few clarifications before I look at the data....
> 
> 
> It appears you used an East Detroit zipcode (48214) in above posted tvfool results.
> 
> Your actual location will have quite different results...
> 
> 
> On the "Windsor, Canada" map, the LAT/LONG listed in the next line is actually in
> 
> Detroit at the location of the "pin" symbol.
> 
> Perhaps the mapping program doesn't work correctly for Canada....
> 
> no problem, we can do much better....
> 
> 
> Using GoogleEarth to locate & convert units, the location you marked on the map is about
> 
> 42-14-53N by 82-58-09W, which is 42.2481 by -82.9692 (within a few 100 meters).
> 
> 
> Here are TVFool results for your location:




Yes, you are correct, it wouldn't give the actual Lat/Long for "Windsor, Canada", so I put the pic showing my actual location. Thanks for determining the actual location and for re-doing the TVfools results, it is VERY much appreciated! I look forward to your annalysis of the data.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/14972257
> 
> 
> I think the Channel Master 0063, 0064 and 0065 are in unshielded cases, whereas the 77XX preamps are in tight metal cases. That makes a difference if you are very near a TV station or even an FM radio tower.



Hmm, I have an CM0264 in an unshielded case, and a weak TV tower two miles away and a strong FM tower about a mile away. I wonder if taping the unit with aluminum duct tape would make a difference.


----------



## holl_ands

*Mariouchie:*

You have very high signal levels, so amplified antennas & Preamps

can be a problem. So start without a Preamp on the 4-Bay.


Loss due to being in an attic can reduce the signal levels,

perhaps allowing the use of a low-gain, high overload

Preamp (e.g. W-G HDP-269). Overload blocks reception of

some of the weaker channels.


The stations you lost (4.1 & 50.1) are both quite strong,

coming from different tower locations. Perhaps they are

upgrading their equipment for Post-Feb2009 operations

before the winter weather gets really bad????


=====================================

You have strong *UHF* stations coming from several directions:

SOUTH: 172-deg (CBET, CICO, CBEFT)

NW: 317-323-deg (Windsor & Detroit clusters)

NORTH: 11-deg (WADL) and also 18-deg (W48AV, although weaker)


The more difficult to receive stations are as follows:

ESE: 105-118 (Whealey, Canada)

SW: 206-211-deg (Tuledo, Ohio)


The strong UHF stations will probably come in irrespective of which

way the 4-Bay is pointed. Unfortunately, the 100-deg spread

between Whealey and Tuledo greatly exceeds the beamwidth of a

4-Bay so if you pointed toward mid-point, both would have low gain:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4221.html 


Perhaps you don't NEED to receive duplicate networks from Tuledo....


I would point the 4-Bay toward Whealey for max gain toward weakest

stations....tweak it back and forth until others come in okay.


If you have problems, remove the 4-Bay's reflector screen, which

adds a beam in the opposite direction.

*Now let's discuss VHF channels:*

Currently, CIII (Ch6, towards 118-deg) is only VHF channel of interest.

The 4-Bay has very low gain on Ch6 and may or may not get it (I'm betting against).


Post-Feb2009 results show WJBK (Fox) moving to Ch7 and

two Tuledo stations moving to Ch13 (ABC #2) and Ch11 (CBS #2).


The 4-Bay has low gain on Ch7, which may be just adequate to receive Ch7.

Since the 4-Bay wasn't specifically designed to receive VHF,

the beam directions could be pretty much in ANY direction

and wouldn't be particularly good for both WJBK and Tuledo.

But hopefully you don't NEED duplicate networks from Tuledo....

[Most antennas can't receive stations at right angles to each other.]


If the RCA amplified Omni is good enough for Ch6 now and

the other VHF stations in Feb2009, you can use UVSJ combiner.


If you are looking to upgrade VHF performance, CM-4228 8-Bay

antenna has moderate Ch7-13 gain and 5 dB more than the Omni on Ch6....

but it has a very narrow UHF beamwidth, meaning rotator use only.


If Ch6 is the ONLY VHF of interest, I would use simple rabbit ears

with UVSJ....or better still, a DIY Folded Dipole cut for Ch6:
http://www.n-lemma.com/calcs/dipole/fdipole.htm 
http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html 

PS: Folded Dipole FM antennas sold by R-S, et. al. are "close" to Ch6:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062691 

[BTW: That's only a photo of the center, joining section.]


=====================================

FYI: Here is DIY Antenna thread. They show oversized 4-Bay Bowties

and Gray-Hoverman antennas optimized for Ch51 and below:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798265


----------



## intravino

Hello,



I want to stack two Delhi 10y13s horizontally to kill co-channel interference on VHF ch 13. Delhi Website 


My question is :


What it is the easy way to stack them?


They have to be 52.33 inches apart.


They will be mounted on my 40' tower but not on top (I have other antennas there).


They are going connected to the VHF input of my CM 7777. I have my CM 4228 connected to the UHF input.


What is the best method of combining them?


Thanks for your time,


Intravino


----------



## mattdp

So... my antenna's rotor issues are finally solved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It turns.


Now I face other problems. Basically, all my VHF channels come through ok with weird patterns, but UHF is really bad. Basically, I could do as good a job with rabbit ears up there.


I'm more and more convinced it's a preamplifier issue. The amp is a used Winegard AP-8780 with a CM 16VAC power supply. I also have a CM 14VDC supply. They both give identical results.


I'm thinking there's something wrong with the pre-amp. Possibly a bad PS cap??? Here's what it looks like: http://picasaweb.google.com/radioguy...60636147127090


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mattdp* /forum/post/14988100
> 
> 
> So... my antenna's rotor issues are finally solved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It turns.
> 
> 
> Now I face other problems. Basically, all my VHF channels come through ok with weird patterns, but UHF is really bad. Basically, I could do as good a job with rabbit ears up there.
> 
> 
> I'm more and more convinced it's a preamplifier issue. The amp is a used Winegard AP-8780 with a CM 16VAC power supply. I also have a CM 14VDC supply. They both give identical results.
> 
> 
> I'm thinking there's something wrong with the pre-amp. Possibly a bad PS cap??? Here's what it looks like: http://picasaweb.google.com/radioguy...60636147127090



The CM/Winegard power supplies will not interchange.The voltage/polarity is different.Get a winegard PS.Hopefully you haven't blown it.


----------



## mattdp

I believe Winegards are 18VAC? Is that correct. I used an isolation transformer with switchable voltage from 90-140v. In that range, there is no discernible difference. ...on either PSU.


I'll see what I can do as far as a Winegard PSU.


(btw, do you know the whole power supply mismatch thing from personal experience, or just theoretical?)


Can anyone tell me what the patterns on my analog signal mean? Is the amp oscillating (I'm thinking so)?


----------



## Digital Rules

Are you using any FM trap other than what is built into the pre-amp? If not, you may need one to furthur attenuate the 2 closeby, potent FM stations.(Especially the one at 91.7) IT looks like you have a lot of intermodualtion distortion; typical of an overloaded front end.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mattdp* /forum/post/14988510
> 
> 
> I believe Winegards are 18VAC? Is that correct. I used an isolation transformer with switchable voltage from 90-140v. In that range, there is no discernible difference. ...on either PSU.
> 
> 
> I'll see what I can do as far as a Winegard PSU.
> 
> 
> (btw, do you know the whole power supply mismatch thing from personal experience, or just theoretical?)
> 
> 
> Can anyone tell me what the patterns on my analog signal mean? Is the amp oscillating (I'm thinking so)?



Personal experience.


The pattern in your pic looks like normal CCI due to heightened tropo activity.I noticed it yesterday and it's still there this morning.Shove it down this way.I'll gladly take it off your hands!

http://www.mountainlake.k12.mn.us/ha...ath.cgi?map=na


----------



## mattdp

Eureka!!!!!!!! I figure it out.


I know the patterns look like CCI, which confused me at first too. However, the last time I hooked the antenna up, VHF channels had the same patterns.


Furthermore, Channel 7 was a very strong copy of channel 8. Very weird.


....and even channel 10 (35 miles away) was giving me vertical rolls and crap.


The UHF was all very weak. I could get better with rabbit ears. Yet, the antenna has the right polar pattern.



My amplifier is seriously malfunctioning, either oscillating or distorting so that I'm getting CCI patterns on VHFs because the preamp is operating in the not-very-linear regions or something.


The FM trap on the amp is in, and I don't see one bit of FM interference.


As I said before, if you have a Winegard Power supply, AP-8780 or CM 7777, I'd be more than happy to take it off your hands
























Rick, I'm running known good RG-6 with compression connectors from antenna to UVSJ, then to the AP-8780, then another RG-6 line with compression connectors direct to the ground block (15 ft) This goes into a long run of RG-11 down to the house, which currently goes straight into a pre-amp, into a known good 3' cable to the TV or Zenith DTT-901.


----------



## mattdp

If we have time next weekend, I will get up on a ladder and bypass the preamp completely. I'm also thinking about a new capacitor in the pre-amp and getting the right PSU. If that doesn't work, I'll get a 7777.


I have two translator (56 & 58) about 7 miles away, other than that, the nearest station is 35 miles.


----------



## Mariouchie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/14986785
> 
> 
> If the RCA amplified Omni is good enough for Ch6 now and
> 
> the other VHF stations in Feb2009, you can use UVSJ combiner.
> 
> 
> If you are looking to upgrade VHF performance, CM-4228 8-Bay
> 
> antenna has moderate Ch7-13 gain and 5 dB more than the Omni on Ch6....
> 
> but it has a very narrow UHF beamwidth, meaning rotator use only.



Holl_ands,


Again, thanks for the great info.


No, I currently don't/can't get Ch6 with the Omni. I would like to upgrade my VHF, but with some of my major watching stations returning to VHF in 09, the directional 4228 may not be a good option (and I don't have power in the attic for a rotator). Looks like I will just try the 4-bay (with and with out CM7777) pointing ESE with the Omni through a Pico UVSJ or CM0549 (post pre-amps) and see what happens.


What "issues" do you thing adding the CM7777 would possibly create?


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mariouchie* /forum/post/14992336
> 
> 
> What "issues" do you thing adding the CM7777 would possibly create?



The 7777 _will not_ work in your situation. You signal levels are way too strong for a high gain pre-amp. You will lose all of your weak channels, and maybe even some of the stronger ones. If you find you do need a pre-amp for _distribution needs_, a low gain pre-amp like the HDP-269 like holl_ands recommended would be a good fit for you.


"Don't use a sledgehammer to put in a thumbtack"


----------



## mclapp

The winegard ps-1503 works fine for Channel master amps it has a 18vdc output, many other winegard power supplies especially the older ones were ac output and don't work for the newer channel master amps.


----------



## holl_ands

Totally agree....strong signals cause intermodulation distortion, which result in unwanted

noise on certain affected channels. With many strong signals, nearly ALL channels are affected.


Low gain HDP-269 will accept much higher signal levels than any other Preamp...

and high gain CM-7777 is on the other end of that scale....


Attenuation of signals within your attic is only thing that MIGHT allow you to use HDP-269.

Of course, since it is nearly impossible to predict how much loss you have, you'll

just have to try it and see how it works....


BTW: The HDP-269 has more than adequate gain to drive downlead and a bunch of RF splitters.

If you add a SECOND distribution amp, it can overload the input of your DTV. So don't...


Since the Omni doesn't pick up Ch6 now, there is no point in connecting it via UVSJ.

IF you indeed WANT to receive Ch6, try one of the options I listed above.


----------



## Cueball703

Hi.... I am totally overwhelmed here. There is too much info for me to sort through. Can someone please simplify things a little for me?


I live in an aparment building (amongst many in my neighborhood... Forest Hills (Queens), NY... Zip Code 11375). I can *NOT* have an Outdoor Antanna (it is *NOT PERMITTED* in my building). I do *NOT* subscribe to Cable or Sattelite or Direct TV, etc... I just receive whatever is broadcast free over the airwaves (regular Network TV stations). Is there some Indoor Antanna (that you know of) that I can purchase to help prevent the breakup of my reception when Digital takes over for Analog? Please specify brands and model numbers. Please e-mail me as well at CUEBALL070358 at AOL dot com.


----------



## n8wci

Folks,

I just installed an Insignia NS-DXA1-APT converter box and I need your opinions. I have a large U/V Terk 55 on a Channel Master 9521 rotor. I live half way between Dayton,Oh(NE) and Cincy,Oh(So) and always have had to turn the antenna to receive all stations. My question, I am receiving all but three Dayton stations with the antenna pointed south. This includes 3 NE, 1 NW, 1 West, and all Cincy stations. The picture is great(signal strength down off direction), no ghosting or pixelation, how can this be?, and will this change in the winter?

Steve


----------



## bernieoc




> Quote:
> Low gain HDP-269 will accept much higher signal levels than any other Preamp...
> 
> and high gain CM-7777 is on the other end of that scale



This comment leads me to question my situation.

47 miles from towers Winegard PR 8800 for UHF and 5 element Ch 3 only for my PBS station (Roanoke VA) - joined by a CM 7777 to one TV - Still have occasional CH 3 problems. Question ? is CM7777 too much? I would like to split signal to another TV. This might help because of the splitter? Or should I try the HDP 269 with lower gain.

Some possibly related information. There is another combo Radio Shack large antenna in the attic that I hooked up to feed three TV's with a RS 10db amp before the splitter and all worked well - as good or better than the two antennas on the roof with the CM777.

I am kind of lost between Pre-amp (strong or weak), splitter with strong pre amp, distribution amp with no pre amp etc?

I hope to go OTA only and want to use the cable company wireing that has their input going to a four way splitter and somehow use my attic and roof combo to feed the 4 TV's (2 to one -2 to the other)?

Thanks, Bernieoc


----------



## aymanme




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/14970484
> 
> 
> I need to determine the rated output of this pre-amp power supply. My measurements were taken 3 foot of the transformer and yielded 22 Volts. I thought they were supposed to be around 18V. I swapped out 2 pre-amps and just used the same power supply. Perhaps, my problem is with the power supply.



The power supply may be linear or switched, but unless it is regulated, then with a light or no load, you will likely read higher than the rated voltage. With the specified load you will be close to the rated voltage. For instance, just some quick and dirty data on some of the supplies that I put out with my products. These are tiny switchers, but I have some linears that are in the same arena. The output might also be a function of the input, but this isn't too common for switchers.


Rated, Measured

5V @ 150mA, 7.2V @ 20mA

9V @ 150mA, 13V @ 20mA


So I would not be surprised to see 22V on an 18V supply.


----------



## holl_ands

*DTV PREAMP SIGNAL OVERLOAD CALCULATOR, RevK* is attached, explaining how

to estimate received signal level and compare it to Preamp manufacturer specs.


Some manufacturers stipulate overload tolerance via input signal levels whereas

others use output signal levels.


Digital power is always measured with an average reading meter, whereas

NTSC/Analog power (assumed in manfacturer specs) is always measured

with a peak reading meter. And it's the PEAKS that cause the most damage....

Hence DTV average signal levels must be increased 7 dB to find peak signal levels.


Additional complication is taking the Cross Modulation Distortion (IMD) noise level

for the specified number of strong channels and then "derating" (lowering)

the maximum input signal levels when there are additional strong carriers....

And the reverse process when the manufacturer only specifies IMD levels

for a large number of (equally) strong channels.


You can use the line-of-sight calculator in the spread sheet, inputting antenna

gain and various loss corrections....or use www.tvfool.com Signal Pwr (dBm)

results, which need to be corrected by adding the gain of the antenna (in the

DIRECTION of the tower) and then

take away an estimate for various other factors, such as trees/attic/indoor loss

and balun/cable loss between antenna and Preamp.


Compare your calculated Preamp input signal level(s) (Sip) for the strongest

channels to the *Max Sip (two channel case)* found for each of fol. Preamps:

*W-G HDP-269: -14.6 dB* (76.2 dB dynamic range)
*W-G AP-4700: -22.3 dB* (68.5 dB dynamic range)
*W-G AP-4800: -28.8 dB* (62.0 dB dynamic range)
*C-M Spartan 3: -34.5 dB* (56.3 dB dynamic range) (e.g. 0068DSB)
*C-M Titan 2: -35.8 dB* (55.0 dB dynamic range) (e.g. CM7777)
*B-T CMA-Uc: -31.2 dB* (59.6 dB dynamic range)
*B-T SCMA-Ub: -25.2 dB* (65.6 dB dynamic range)


Of course this is all based on what little data we have from the manufacturers.

And don't even bother to ask about Radio-Shack, Antennas-Direct, et.al.

because they don't even bother to give specs....


=================================

Typical overload calculation involves trying to receive some distant weak channels

with a handful of nearby towers generating IMD noise on certain affected channels.

When there are more than a few strong signals, nearly every channel position is

affected, since third order IMD is spread across THREE adjacent channels

and lower level fifth order IMD is spread across FIVE adjacent channels, etc.

*THIRD ORDER IMD CALCULATOR, RevA* is also attached.

It calculates which channels are most affected, since third order is

stronger than fifth, seventh, etc. order IMD.

Examples are based on a few reported forum viewer situations.

You can also use INTMOD.EXE, a free download from NTIA:
http://ntiacsd.ntia.doc.gov/msam/ 


When there are more than two strong channels (remember to increase DTV by 7 dB),

tolerable input levels are less in order to maximize the dynamic range (SFDR).

See spread sheet for these derating details.


Additional information can be found by searching this forum for "SFDR"

(Spurious Free Dynamic Range), also see links in spread sheet.


PS: Please let me know if you have any "issues" with the spread sheets.....

 

DTV Preamp Signal Overload Calculator - RevK.zip 13.8720703125k . file

 

Third Order IMD Calculator - RevA.zip 11.9130859375k . file


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/14970484
> 
> 
> I need to determine the rated output of this pre-amp power supply. My measurements were taken 3 foot of the transformer and yielded 22 Volts. I thought they were supposed to be around 18V. I swapped out 2 pre-amps and just used the same power supply. Perhaps, my problem is with the power supply.



I measured my CM0747 power supply at the antenna and it was 16.7 VDC no load. At the power supply end, it was 18 VDC no load.

So with about a 45 ft coax run, the voltage loss was about 1.3 VDC.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bernieoc* /forum/post/15003502
> 
> 
> This comment leads me to question my situation.
> 
> 47 miles from towers Winegard PR 8800 for UHF and 5 element Ch 3 only for my PBS station (Roanoke VA) - joined by a CM 7777 to one TV - Still have occasional CH 3 problems. Question ? is CM7777 too much? I would like to split signal to another TV. This might help because of the splitter? Or should I try the HDP 269 with lower gain.
> 
> Some possibly related information. There is another combo Radio Shack large antenna in the attic that I hooked up to feed three TV's with a RS 10db amp before the splitter and all worked well - as good or better than the two antennas on the roof with the CM777.
> 
> I am kind of lost between Pre-amp (strong or weak), splitter with strong pre amp, distribution amp with no pre amp etc?
> 
> I hope to go OTA only and want to use the cable company wireing that has their input going to a four way splitter and somehow use my attic and roof combo to feed the 4 TV's (2 to one -2 to the other)?
> 
> Thanks, Bernieoc



There aren't any TV or FM towers "nearby" Altavista, VA to cause a problem.

You can compare the Max Sip given above for various Preamps to your

"All Channels" www.tvfool.com Signal Receive (dBm) results (after correcting

for antenna gain and balun/coax loss).


Best performance is to use a MAST-MOUNTED Preamp...or if you don't want

to drop the antenna...as close as possible...

CM-7777 has enough gain to drive a long downlead AND a bunch of splitters....

Cascading TWO Preamp/Amps can overload TV...you can check via above spread sheet.


----------



## ThoraX695




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *n8wci* /forum/post/14999693
> 
> 
> Folks,
> 
> I just installed an Insignia NS-DXA1-APT converter box and I need your opinions. I have a large U/V Terk 55 on a Channel Master 9521 rotor. I live half way between Dayton,Oh(NE) and Cincy,Oh(So) and always have had to turn the antenna to receive all stations. My question, I am receiving all but three Dayton stations with the antenna pointed south. This includes 3 NE, 1 NW, 1 West, and all Cincy stations. The picture is great(signal strength down off direction), no ghosting or pixelation, how can this be?, and will this change in the winter?
> 
> Steve



The Terk 55 appears to be bidirectional. Lots of people in Southwest Ohio (I live in Cincinnati) can easily pick up most of the stations in both cities by pointing the front of the antenna towards the other city and allowing the rear to pick up the stronger signals from the local city. I suspect this is what's going on in your situation.


I'm guessing the three stations you can't pick up from Dayton are WBDT, WKEF, and WGRT. The transmitter patterns for their digital stations currently point more power away from Cincinnati. (Some of this will change after analog shutoff though.)


Will your reception change once winter hits and the rest of the leaves fall off the trees? Perhaps. It may get better. It may get worse (due to the possible introduction of more multipath).


For more help, you can check out the Cincinnati HDTV thread .


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15005948
> 
> 
> I measured my CM0747 power supply at the antenna and it was 16.7 VDC no load.
> 
> At the power supply end, it was 18 VDC no load.
> 
> So with about a 45 ft coax run, the voltage loss was about 1.3 VDC.



Are you sure the "at antenna" measurement was with NO load???

Should be same as at power module unless you have a very low impedance

Volt-Ohm-Meter....or a very leaky coax...


Only measurement that makes sense is at antenna WITH LOAD.

If you don't have a zero-loss "T" connector to insert for measurement,

measure at antenna end with a resistor dummy load (Rd = Vrated/Irated),

where Vrated and Irated are the Preamp's rated operating voltage and current.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bernieoc* /forum/post/15003502
> 
> 
> Question ? is CM7777 too much?



Bernieoc,


There is a potent FM station on 88.3 that is a potential problem for you.(50,000 watts; just 5 miles NW of Altavista) The internal FM trap of the 7777 is ineffective on that frequency. Have you tried the channel 3 antenna with _no amplification_? I would try installing a true "_full band_" FM trap in front of the VHF input of the 7777 if nothing else works for you. That is the only thing I can see anywhere close to you that would cause the 7777 to overload.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15006126
> 
> 
> Are you sure the "at antenna" measurement was with NO load???
> 
> Should be same as at power module unless you have a very low impedance
> 
> Volt-Ohm-Meter....or a very leaky coax...
> 
> 
> Only measurement that makes sense is at antenna WITH LOAD.
> 
> If you don't have a zero-loss "T" connector to insert for measurement,
> 
> measure at antenna end with a resistor dummy load (Rd = Vrated/Irated),
> 
> where Vrated and Irated are the Preamp's rated operating voltage and current.



Good point. I remembered I measured at the power module with my good DVM. On the roof, I naturally took my cheapie Craftsman DVM.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15005797
> 
> *W-G AP-4800: -28.8 dB* (62.0 dB dynamic range)
> 
> 
> Of course this is all based on what little data we have from the manufacturers.



As has been reported previously, the Winegard AP-4800 has a gain of about 36 to 38dB in the low 500 MHz range but was close to 28dB both below and above that frequency range, which messes up any calculations made using signal input or output levels that are furnished rather than measured.



In a head-to-head comparison I did with two Winegard AP-4727 preamps (23dB intermediate gain version of the 4700/4800) and two Channel Master ODS0064, 23dB UHF gain preamps, the weakest digital channels were rendered unprocessible at output levels about 10dB lower coming out of the Winegard preamps than out of the Channel Master preamps.


----------



## TrueDon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/14877465
> 
> 
> The 4221 and 4221A are basically the same thing. They have been discontinued and superseded by the 4221HD. While CM has released few specifications on the 'HD beyond average gain, its design is not radically different, and so there doesn't appear to be much justification for spending the extra money while the tried-and-true, older 4221s are still available.



Does anyone have any additional info on the 4221HD? Does the 4221HD provide any significant improvements and is it worth waiting for over the 4221.

There is very little info out there on the 4421HD.


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TrueDon* /forum/post/15013162
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any additional info on the 4221HD? Does the 4221HD provide any significant improvements and is it worth waiting for over the 4221.
> 
> There is very little info out there on the 4421HD.



It's lighter and it's made in China. Personally I wouldn't wait. It's a good, proven, solid design. Further, you know some people are going to swear it's better than the new one whether it is or it isn't, so there will be a resale market if you really want the 4221HD later on.


----------



## willscary

Warren Electronics is a often cited supplier here. Has anyone actually bought from them? How are they as a retailer? I called them today and a very knowledgable salesman talked to me for quite a bit, then emailed me a quote.


I am looking at a new Rohn tower. It is expensive to buy and expensive to have shipped. Warren Electronics' price is very fair. Can I expect a fair dealing with them? Are they reputable?


Any opinions would be appreciated as I am leaning towards them over a local electronics place.


Thanks!


Bill


----------



## SixString

I'm trying to put together a digital OTA solution so I can scrap Comcast. I live about 30 miles from the towers (Seattle), in the middle of the freakin' forest, surrounded by acres of extremely tall (>100') firs, hemlocks, etc.


I made a couple of bowtie antennas and bought a DTT901. I get good reception but the signal "strength" bounces all over the place from Good to Bad on several channels (esp. 13.1), and I get frequent dropouts. I'm guessing it's multipath. An amp made no difference according to the built-in signal meter.


I'd like to have the antenna inside, or in the garage, but could go outside if I had to, but using existing cabling the run would be about 50'. I tried taking a portable TV outside and trying it; better, but still problematic. AntennaWeb suggests a "medium directional antenna with pre-amp." I was considering the 4228HD but wonder if it'll really help.


Thanks all!


Is there a solution to this problem, or am I basically SOL because of the trees?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Is there a solution to this problem, or am I basically SOL because of the trees?



I dont think multipath is your main problem, firs and hemlocks because of their high water content, are notorious signal blockers. Can you find or clear a path to the station that is clear for a few hundred yards ?


Depending on your situation, you may be able to take advantage of the tall trees by mounting the antenna on top of one of them.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15021898
> 
> 
> Depending on your situation, you may be able to take advantage of the tall trees by mounting the antenna on top of one of them.



Make sure you install proper grounding for the tree.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Make sure you install proper grounding for the tree.



Heh, the tree is properly grounded, and is more likely to get hit by lightning. (I speak from personal experience) But the coax needs to be properly grounded with a grounding block, as in any outdoor situation.


----------



## SixString

Okay, everyone who thinks I'm shimmying up a fifteen-story Douglas fir that sways 50' in the wind to install a 300' run of cable and my homemade bowtie--raise your hands!


Seriously, would even a 4228 suffer from my location?


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SixString* /forum/post/15021534
> 
> 
> I made a couple of bowtie antennas and bought a DTT901. I get good reception but the signal "strength" bounces all over the place from Good to Bad on several channels (esp. 13.1), and I get frequent dropouts. I'm guessing it's multipath. An amp made no difference according to the built-in signal meter.



I think you will want to try a Yagi class antenna, such as the 91XG. However, an upper VHF antenna will need to be added next year when 9, 11 & 13 go back to VHF in Seattle.


A CM4228 might solve your problem and has some upper VHF gain. However, I would be inclined to go with a 91XG and a YA1713 in the woods (with a rotor, if you want the non co-located stations).


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SixString* /forum/post/15031065
> 
> 
> Okay, everyone who thinks I'm shimmying up a fifteen-story Douglas fir that sways 50' in the wind to install a 300' run of cable and my homemade bowtie--raise your hands!
> 
> 
> Seriously, would even a 4228 suffer from my location?



The tree would sway too much for a 4228. Try a 4221 instead.


How far apart are the branches on a Douglas Fir?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> However, an upper VHF antenna will need to be added next year when 9, 11 & 13 go back to VHF in Seattle.
> 
> 
> A CM4228 might solve your problem and has some upper VHF gain.



You could also try building mclapps 4 bay bowtie with the large reflector for VHF-Hi channels as well as UHF channels. His designs for it are in the "How to build a UHF antenna" thread of this forum.


Ive found that generally bowties and Gray-Hoverman designs do better at catching signals thru trees than the corner reflector yagi style antennas.



> Quote:
> How far apart are the branches on a Douglas Fir?



At the top, they are very close together. He'll have to take a saw with him to clear an area to mount the antenna.


----------



## paris_tn

Using a 7777, if you unplug it from the wall, should you receive a signal? Why i am asking, is i did try my 91xg's but no rotor yet and turned up north. On a station signal power dbm at -105.4 i am receiving at 6 bars on the Samsung 260f and if i unplug the cm7777 from the wall, i have no signal.


So the 7777 i take it, has to be inline and hooked up or by passed. I hope to get the rotor up tomorrow and try the 91xg's out more. The channel i was speaking of was 72.7 miles away. I wish i had the time today to do more testing but in a very crude test, it seemed i was getting 2 more bars signal with 2 91xg's than 1 91xg.


Before i push up the mast more i would like to try the antennas without the 7777 and then with it and see if it is working and how much. I ran out of time today.


----------



## Digital Rules

If you unplug the 7777 from the wall, you will lose all but the strongest signals. The only way to do a true, before and after comparison is to bypass _both_ the pre-amp, and power supply.


----------



## paris_tn

Ok thanks, i will try this tomorrow by by passing these and using antennas and then try preamp and see difference.


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> I know the patterns look like CCI



"CCI" ????









http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCI


----------



## mclapp

I was able to test a CM-4221 this weekend using my make shift antenna range. Testing was done with a B&k 2630 spectrum analyzer using the tracking generator as the transmitter into a dipole antennas cut for UHF & VHF-hi.

The transmit and receive antennas were about 20ft off of the ground and seperated by enough to be considered far field measurements. The readings were compared to a series of folded dipoles cut for both VHF-HI and UHF.


On UHF it showed about 6.5 dbd at ch14 and climbed to 11.5 dbd on ch36 where it stayed pretty steady (+-1db) through ch69.


On VHF-hi the CM4221 has a negative gain of around -15dbd on ch7 rising to -1dbd on ch13. It has better gain through the screen on the lower vhf-hi channels, about 2 - 5db better until ch12 where it's about even.


By adding a 36" wide piece of screen or a series of 36" threaded rods (horizontal) to the back of the original reflector, the CM4221 actually has positive forward gain in the range of 2-4dbd from ch10-13 and peaked at around 5dbd above ch 13. It still dropped off pretty fast below ch9 to -10dbd by ch7 but that is still a 3 - 7db improvement over the factory screen depending on the channel.


I know most of this is old news but other than some computer modeling results I've never seen any actual test results of it's UHF and VHF-hi performance.


It was interesting to see how a few pieces of 36" threaded rod attached to the back of the reflector screen made so much difference. I had modeled it and the models showed some gain but you never know till you try it.


----------



## alk753

mclapp,


Thank you performing the testing and sharing this information.


It's good to hear the results come in line with the modeling.


----------



## PCTools

Bill,


Warren Electric are a decent supplier. Just out of curosity what are they quoting you for the Rohn 20?


I bought my tower 6 months ago and paid around $70 for the mid's and $80 for the top.


I know this stuff is pricey, so shop around.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *willscary* /forum/post/15019800
> 
> 
> Warren Electronics is a often cited supplier here. Has anyone actually bought from them? How are they as a retailer? I called them today and a very knowledgable salesman talked to me for quite a bit, then emailed me a quote.
> 
> 
> I am looking at a new Rohn tower. It is expensive to buy and expensive to have shipped. Warren Electronics' price is very fair. Can I expect a fair dealing with them? Are they reputable?
> 
> 
> Any opinions would be appreciated as I am leaning towards them over a local electronics place.
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> Bill


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/15041255
> 
> 
> paid around $70 for the mid's and $80 for the top.



Delivered?


I priced tower sections at a local radio store a couple of years ago at about $125 per. Prices I've seen on the net look to be as much or more delivered.


-Neil


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> It was interesting to see how a few pieces of 36" threaded rod attached to the back of the reflector screen made so much difference.



It would be interesting if you could replace the threaded rod with plain rod and see if it makes a significant difference. Threaded rod is one of those things that are near impossible to model, heh.


----------



## mikebaz

I hate to be one of those people asking for spoon feeding, but I have read through the numerous faqs and spent hours on this thread. I'm a longtime lurker, but not a poster. I'm looking to get this setup going in the next few months, so I've attached the "post 2/17" results from my location.


I have many tall (greater than 40ft) trees in my backyard, but do have a fairly clear view of the southern sky. (Currently receiving di$hnetwork at 110/119w. with plans to cancel soon). No tall apartment buildings nearby, but within 2 miles there are extremely high hydro lines. My receiver intention is the Hisense db-2010 and I'm of course looking for antenna recommendations. Alot of people seem very happy with the CM4228 but I wanted to run it by the experts and get some mounting suggestions.


I am really only interested in receiving HD broadcasts on the major networks. Thanks guys!


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15041530
> 
> 
> It would be interesting if you could replace the threaded rod with plain rod and see if it makes a significant difference. Threaded rod is one of those things that are near impossible to model, heh.



The reason I used threaded rod was (1) I had a bunch and (2) I figured it would be worst case anybody would use for reflector elements. The difference in gain between the (8) 36" long 1/4-20 threaded rods and the 36"wide x 36"tall 1"x2" wire fence was almost nothing on VHF-hi. Both were attached to the back original screen with just some plastic spring clamps and 1 vise grip.


Yes it would be tough to model but I don't think the threads would come into play at TV frequencies.


----------



## hokie93

Here's his results from digital home.

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...=41072&page=33


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The difference in gain between the (8) 36" long 1/4-20 threaded rods and the 36"wide x 36"tall 1"x2" wire fence was almost nothing on VHF-hi.



Thats good to know. I figured for VHF-Hi, it would only be a minor difference at best. Oddly, 1/4 inch threaded rod is much cheaper at Lowes and Home Depot than 1/4 inch solid rod, heh.



> Quote:
> I have many tall (greater than 40ft) trees in my backyard, but do have a fairly clear view of the southern sky.



What kind of trees ? Do you have 148 degrees magnetic clear ? How about the situation at 328 degrees magnetic ?



> Quote:
> I am really only interested in receiving HD broadcasts on the major networks. Thanks guys!



Your signals are quite strong, and if it wasnt for channel 8, you could do fine with a reflectorless Gray-Hoverman.


----------



## PCTools

Bill,


Warren Electronics is a good supplier. I have made many purchases without any issues.


As far as Rohn 20 tower prices, get ready to unload your wallet with current steel prices.


The best deals I secured on my tower is as follows:

Top $89 X 1

Mid's $73 X 4


I paid $620 for a 50' install, concrete, and a stacked array mounted on top. (Not including antennas or pre-amp)



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *willscary* /forum/post/15019800
> 
> 
> Warren Electronics is a often cited supplier here. Has anyone actually bought from them? How are they as a retailer? I called them today and a very knowledgable salesman talked to me for quite a bit, then emailed me a quote.
> 
> 
> I am looking at a new Rohn tower. It is expensive to buy and expensive to have shipped. Warren Electronics' price is very fair. Can I expect a fair dealing with them? Are they reputable?
> 
> 
> Any opinions would be appreciated as I am leaning towards them over a local electronics place.
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> Bill


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mclapp* /forum/post/15038486
> 
> 
> I was able to test a CM-4221 this weekend using my make shift antenna range. Testing was done with a B&k 2630 spectrum analyzer using the tracking generator as the transmitter into a dipole antennas cut for UHF & VHF-hi.
> 
> The transmit and receive antennas were about 20ft off of the ground and seperated by enough to be considered far field measurements. The readings were compared to a series of folded dipoles cut for both VHF-HI and UHF.
> 
> 
> On UHF it showed about 6.5 dbd at ch14 and climbed to 11.5 dbd on ch36 where it stayed pretty steady (+-1db) through ch69.
> 
> 
> On VHF-hi the CM4221 has a negative gain of around -15dbd on ch7 rising to -1dbd on ch13. It has better gain through the screen on the lower vhf-hi channels, about 2 - 5db better until ch12 where it's about even.
> 
> 
> By adding a 36" wide piece of screen or a series of 36" threaded rods (horizontal) to the back of the original reflector, the CM4221 actually has positive forward gain in the range of 2-4dbd from ch10-13 and peaked at around 5dbd above ch 13. It still dropped off pretty fast below ch9 to -10dbd by ch7 but that is still a 3 - 7db improvement over the factory screen depending on the channel.
> 
> 
> I know most of this is old news but other than some computer modeling results I've never seen any actual test results of it's UHF and VHF-hi performance.
> 
> 
> It was interesting to see how a few pieces of 36" threaded rod attached to the back of the reflector screen made so much difference. I had modeled it and the models showed some gain but you never know till you try it.



Good work....but I have some hopefully CONSTRUCTIVE comments re *Ground Bounce*,

esp. if anyone else attempts to replicate results.....

I would also be interested in how you avoided or accounted for this effect...


The receive antenna receives not only direct LOS signal, but also a "Ground Bounce"

reflection with a somewhat longer path length.


The path difference causes constructive and destructive interference, depending

on whether ground bounce signal is in-phase with LOS signal (multiple of the wavelength)

or out-of-phase (odd multiple of half wavelength, e.g. L/2, 3L/2, 5L/2, etc).


At higher UHF frequencies, this path difference can even vary across the height

of a typical multi-bay antenna....at which point constructive gain overwhelms nulls.....


The destructive null is fairly sharp...and more likely at lower UHF frequencies.


For more consistent measurements, either the TX or RX antenna can be raised

and lowered until the receive signal level is at maximum constructive interference.

With a good ground reflection, free space gain of the antenna would be *3 dB LESS*.


Some professional antenna ranges employ RF absorbent material and irregular

surfaces to scatter the ground bounce energy. However, this is very difficult

(and expensive) to do at VHF frequencies....testing across a canyon can help....


Horizontal polarization is more efficiently reflected than vertical polarization

(same principal as polarized sunglasses), hence outdoor antenna test ranges

typically mount antennas rotated 90-degrees with elements going up and down.


One way to completely avoid ground bounce problem is to use a very short pulsed

waveform so the measurement is complete before the reflection appears....


Additional info:
http://www.lehman-inc.com/pdf/mag.pdf 
http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/b.../1/02-0109.pdf 
http://www.exirbt.com/BroadcastingSu...TestRange.aspx 

Hey!!!! Who stole my Volvo Sportwagon????


=========================================

FYI: Detailed CM4221 (et. al.) NEC Sim results (in dBi = dBd + 2.15 dB) are found in ant.xls:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/SIMS/ 

CM4221 net gain peak was 14.9 dBi (12.7 dBd) and Ch16 (lowest UHF) was 9.2 dBi (7 dBd).

So above test range results are remarkably close *(but LOWER)* than NEC Sim runs....


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mikebaz* /forum/post/15042887
> 
> 
> Alot of people seem very happy with the CM4228 but I wanted to run it by the experts and get some mounting suggestions.



Your signals are fairly strong for the most part, unless you are looking for out of market stations as well. The old CM4228 had a bit of a null for channel 8, but I don't know if the new version eliminates that problem.


WBRA isn't worth spending any money on (to add Low-VHF capabilities).


If it wasn't for WGHP on 8, I think the CM4221 would be more than enough for your locals. As the 4221 is very poor on 7 and barely passable on 9, it's probably too risky unless you wouldn't mind adding an upper VHF antenna for WGHP.


A real 7-51 combo, you may want to consider is the Winegard 769 series (if you don't mind a Yagi style):

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=HD7694P 


A CM2016 may be enough as well:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=CM2016


----------



## PCTools

Hollands,


What are your thoughts about aiming your antenna array at a water tower? That is, I will have a NEW 200' water tower about 1800 feet away from my tower.


1) So you think I would have any luck catching the bouncing signal off the water tower and picking it up? I figure this could be a fantastic idea on how close I am to it, or it could just be a complete mess in blocking my view to Detroit.


2) I sent you a PM.


Thanks!


----------



## willscary

PC Tools,


Thanks.


WOW! That is cheap!


I was looking at $121 for 3 main sections and $150 for the 9' top section of Rohn 25. I would do the install myself.


Bill


----------



## PCTools

Rohn 25

Mids - $95

Top - $150



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *willscary* /forum/post/15044981
> 
> 
> PC Tools,
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> WOW! That is cheap!
> 
> 
> I was looking at $121 for 3 main sections and $150 for the 9' top section of Rohn 25. I would do the install myself.
> 
> 
> Bill


----------



## mar9tin

I have 4 TVs in an older house with no easy way to distribute the signal from a roof antenna I think I'm going to need now save fishing cables and even that would be difficult in at least one of the cases. I think I've seen in the past systems that could distribute an RF signal over the house wiring, and think there must be someone who has tackled the job of making an ultra high frequency system, but some pretty extensive searching has so far not yielded any results. To be clear, I am not interested in sending a signal from one box to all the TVs, but from the antenna to the TVs so that they can be tuned to different channels. Any help?


----------



## Neil L

mar9tin,


Best thing would be to run antenna coax from the antenna to each TV either through the attic and drop down through walls, or through the crawl space and just up through the floor (or walls).


If neither of those will work, go around the outside of the house and run your cable through the wall where you need it. I've seen many cable and satellite installs done just that way. It's not pretty but it works and is easy.


-Neil


----------



## mclapp

holl_ands,

I know exactly what you are talking about I had bad problems with this when I set up my original testing, mainly with the reference dipoles which radiate at higher angles.


How I minimized the ground bounce effect was to raise the antennas as high as I reasonably could (approx. 20ft above ground) and placed them as close to each other as I could. There is a formula for the minimum spacing that is allowed and still be considered far field, it has to do with frequency and the antenna capture area.


Using some sort of antenna like a stacked bowtie or corner reflector for the transmit antenna would probably help too but the dipole is nice because it allows me to change element lengths quickly for the different bands.


Using the tracking generator of the spectrum analyzer allows you to see the whole responce curve of the antenna (within the limits of the transmit antenna) that helps show any ground bounce problems. They show up as big shrp dips and peaks in the curve and that's what I was getting when I had the antennas too low and too far apart, especially the dipoles. It drove me nuts for a few days trying to figure out where they odd curve was coming from and why it was mainly the dipoles.


I did most of this testing to varify the modeling results of some of the antennas I was building. I wanted to see if I was heading down the right road and if the modeling gain results were anywhere near actual builds.


Those 4221 results are quite close to the modeled results I didn't really compare them until you mentioned it. I could be easily off +-1db for a number of factors compared to the computer models. (1) The display on the analyzer is in 2 db divisions so I'm estimating the reading between the divisions(reading between the lines) (2) I'm using a balun and a length of coax and there will be areas where the length of coax may just the right length to (fix) bad impedence matches and make it worse in others. (3) In the bowtie antennas and many others the mounting points can detune the antenna somewhat at certain frequencies, the computer models don't take that into account.

I'm sure that there are many more but those are the biggies.


----------



## mikebaz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15043790
> 
> 
> Thats good to know. I figured for VHF-Hi, it would only be a minor difference at best. Oddly, 1/4 inch threaded rod is much cheaper at Lowes and Home Depot than 1/4 inch solid rod, heh.
> 
> 
> 
> What kind of trees ? Do you have 148 degrees magnetic clear ? How about the situation at 328 degrees magnetic ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your signals are quite strong, and if it wasnt for channel 8, you could do fine with a reflectorless Gray-Hoverman.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/15044797
> 
> 
> Your signals are fairly strong for the most part, unless you are looking for out of market stations as well. The old CM4228 had a bit of a null for channel 8, but I don't know if the new version eliminates that problem.
> 
> 
> WBRA isn't worth spending any money on (to add Low-VHF capabilities).
> 
> 
> If it wasn't for WGHP on 8, I think the CM4221 would be more than enough for your locals. As the 4221 is very poor on 7 and barely passable on 9, it's probably too risky unless you wouldn't mind adding an upper VHF antenna for WGHP.
> 
> 
> A real 7-51 combo, you may want to consider is the Winegard 769 series (if you don't mind a Yagi style):
> 
> 
> hxxp:// www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=HD7694P
> 
> 
> A CM2016 may be enough as well:
> 
> 
> hxxp:// www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=CM2016




Thanks for the replies guys. The trees in the backyard are higher than a 3 story building, and very thick (pines, mixed/forested).


However, out the front I have clear visibility. The front of the house faces south, leaving me a clear view ranging from 90-300 degrees.


Like my attachment, I am mainly interested in picking up digital (HD) feeds of:


antennaweb:

uhf WCWG-DT 20.1 CW LEXINGTON, NC 145° 15.3miles

uhf WXLV-DT 45.1 ABC WINSTON-SALEM, NC 145° 15.3miles

vhf WGHP-DT 8.1 FOX HIGH POINT, NC 156° 17.7miles

uhf WMYV-DT 48.1 MNT GREENSBORO, NC 145° 15.3miles

uhf WFMY-DT 2.1 CBS GREENSBORO, NC 148° 14.5miles


FOX 8 is the only VHF, but I definitely want this OR the next closest FOX which can be shown in the attachment. But is about 60-80miles away.


These below channels I would also want, but as noted above, I really don't have a clear view of, unless going through trees is an option? I can't mount any antenna with a clear view ABOVE the tree line.


uhf WXII-DT 12.1 NBC WINSTON-SALEM, NC 327° 31.3miles

uhf WGPX-DT 16.1 ION BURLINGTON, NC 60° 24.7miles



Appreciate the info and honesty,


Thanks guys!


----------



## PCTools

I wanted to inquire your feedback on my location.


As you can see, I am out in the middle of sticks.


Any feedback would be great!









 

The Monster.pdf 360.443359375k . file


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/15058971
> 
> 
> I wanted to inquire your feedback on my location.




I count about 21 DTV stations from eight-nine different directions.


I hope that you have a rotor and a TV that can add channels one at a time.


Your second TV set probably wants it own antenna fixed at the main group of stations at 224 degrees.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Like my attachment, I am mainly interested in picking up digital (HD) feeds of:
> 
> 
> antennaweb:
> 
> uhf WCWG-DT 20.1 CW LEXINGTON, NC 145° 15.3miles
> 
> uhf WXLV-DT 45.1 ABC WINSTON-SALEM, NC 145° 15.3miles
> 
> vhf WGHP-DT 8.1 FOX HIGH POINT, NC 156° 17.7miles
> 
> uhf WMYV-DT 48.1 MNT GREENSBORO, NC 145° 15.3miles
> 
> uhf WFMY-DT 2.1 CBS GREENSBORO, NC 148° 14.5miles
> 
> 
> FOX 8 is the only VHF, but I definitely want this OR the next closest FOX which can be shown in the attachment. But is about 60-80miles away.



You should be very fine with mclapps wide reflector 9 1/2 X 8 bowtie for those stations.


> Quote:
> These below channels I would also want, but as noted above, I really don't have a clear view of, unless going through trees is an option? I can't mount any antenna with a clear view ABOVE the tree line.
> 
> 
> uhf WXII-DT 12.1 NBC WINSTON-SALEM, NC 327° 31.3miles
> 
> uhf WGPX-DT 16.1 ION BURLINGTON, NC 60° 24.7miles



Pines are tough, because of their high water content. But the signals are strong and you may be lucky. Try the SBGH for those stations.


----------



## mikebaz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15069115
> 
> 
> You should be very fine with mclapps wide reflector 9 1/2 X 8 bowtie for those stations.
> 
> 
> Pines are tough, because of their high water content. But the signals are strong and you may be lucky. Try the SBGH for those stations.



Thanks for the info.


I was planning on ordering something commercial. I'm not much of a DIY'er. Although all the plans I've seen for it have had so many changes and revisions, I wouldn't know what the best option to choose (updated link perhaps). Do you think I'd be alright with the attic mount then? and are you suggesting the ONLY way to pick up both the first group of channels, and then the tree obstructed ones in another direction would be to use 2 antennas? I couldn't pull it off with a multidirectional?


Appreciate all your info and knowledge. I've literally spent hours reading your posts across the various threads, and it's just all so overwelming.


----------



## paris_tn

PCTools check mine out. Mine is alot like yours. I have just started testing mine out and i will give some results i am getting. My stacked 91xg's are spaced 54 1/2" apart. I am using a 4-way stripline combiner because i wanted to stack four and will in the spring. So i have two inputs capped or dummy loaded but guessing i have more loss than a 2-way. I think on uhf, trees, hills and so much plays apart on just how good we can do. I think anything out to 70 or 75 miles out we can maybe lock in pretty good. That is if trees and things don't kill the signal to bad.


I have noticed weather plays apart with mine, if a rain moves in. I have many trees around me and i need to get up 20 more feet or even 30 ft and i feel it would help me. I am up 55 ft now. Mine are so so directional it isn't funny. I can be off a few degrees and cut things out. I was looking at some stations 95 to maybe 125 miles late last night, as they would fade in and out with 2 bars(Samsung 260f). I kept messing with rotor and got them at 4 bars and after awhile i finally got them at 7 or 8 bars and even at times might go to full 10 but mainly stay at 8 before it would fade down some. I mean i had to move a lil bit either way but even then at times i would get fade to fade out and back in but not bad. The farther out it seems, the fade seems to be worse. I feel us having maybe 4 antennas might help on this, to maybe hold better.


At 75 miles out, they hardly ever fade out if i am on them. The problem, i don't have alot at 75 miles. WPSD i can always lock in very good and it has a few sub chs. It is 73 miles away. I have not played with the antenna alot pointing towards Memphis but the couple times i tried, i did not get anything except closer stations. WKMU at 30 miles from me has 4 pbs chs and i like them and they always lock at 10 bars. I get them and even WPSD and maybe another or two on the sides of the antennas as well. I do not have as many trees going north and i lock in more north.


Here are some stations i have been picking up and even Nashville during the day or if weather gets bad, Nashville gets bad. If not, i can do good getting anywhere from 6 bars and even locked in WKRN from 7 to 10 bars from nothing in bad rainy weather. Maybe leaves from trees mess with signals. The ones i have listed below is ones i have written down and will test more. I wish i had a 1080 tuner that was very sensitive. I like the Samsung alot and i only want a 1080 tuner but i wish they made one even more sensitive. I wish i was up 30 more ft. I want to stack 4 instead of 2. We need a high gain antenna that cuts off at ch 50. 14-50 and maybe around feb, maybe the 91xg's will be tuned with back driven element from these chs instead of up to 69.


WTCT Marion, IL 96 miles. Fair but drops in and out.

WSIU Carbondale, IL 135 miles. Not to good, drops out to much.

WKRN Nashville, TN 83 miles. This one does good and can lock in good. 6 to 10 bars.

WTVF Nashville, TN 84 miles. This is ok also but not as strong as WKRN.

WZTV Nashville, TN 83 miles. Does good.

WHTN Nashville, TN 105 miles. Has drop outs.

WPSD Paducah, KY 73 miles. This one is always strong.

WKMU Murray, KY 30 miles. Always strong.

WBBJ Jackson, TN. 51 miles. Most of time strong.

WJKT Jackson, TN. 57 miles. Mostly strong.

WSIL Southern IL. 96 miles. Does pretty good.

KFVS Cape Girardeu, MO. 103 miles. With fine tunning, this does good.

WDKA Not sure where it's at. 84 miles. Does ok.

KBSI I think in IL, maybe MO. 104 miles. Fair.


The slightest turn or move on antenna, if i turn, can go from signal to none. Yours looks alot like mine, we are bad deep fringe. All the chs above seems to have sub chs and some of the subs i like. I did not want to mess with guy wires and i do not have a self standing tower, so if i go up higher, i will need to mess with guy wires. I am using Channel Master 7777 and if i take it out of line, signal drops to nothing or very little. I am using rg11 from preamp down, now i do not have anything on vhf side of preamp but hope to have the vip-306 up in the next week or two. If 4 stacked helps on less fade, it would be well worth it. Thanks all in here that has give me tips on installing the stacked 91xg's. Your pics PCtools, also helped. I will take more pics as these pics do not show rotor and doesn't show antennas pushed up 5 ft out of tower. I am going to move scanner antenna down and ground everything. Nothing is grounded yet but i have ground ready.


----------



## paris_tn

In my last post, i meant self supporting tower. Then i would not have to have guy wires up higher. I wanted to say, it is raining hard here now and anything 75 miles or more out, on a couple scans i just made doesn't seem i am picking up. WPSD at 73 miles is great and i didn't go all differ ways but when it rains it seems to really knock far signals back or off for me. Maybe it is the leaves.


----------



## paris_tn

Has anyone in here, tested a channel or channels with no ground and then test when you get your ground wire on. I wonder when grounded, if it could help in signal, if it could help any with fade or if it does not do nothing on signals but ground you.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Do you think I'd be alright with the attic mount then?



Go ahead and try the attic mount first, since thats the easiest option. Then if performance isnt satisfactory, go for the outdoor mount.



> Quote:
> and are you suggesting the ONLY way to pick up both the first group of channels, and then the tree obstructed ones in another direction would be to use 2 antennas? I couldn't pull it off with a multidirectional?



There are no multidirectional TV antennas with great gain, at least not yet. Ganging 2 antennas that face in different directions DECREASES gain on each, so thats why I suggest two antennas, two down leads, into an A-B switch. Or you could go the antenna rotor route, which is painfully slow. (30 second wait for a 180 degree turn)


----------



## Sammer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15076179
> 
> 
> There are no multidirectional TV antennas with great gain, at least not yet. Ganging 2 antennas that face in different directions DECREASES gain on each, so thats why I suggest two antennas, two down leads, into an A-B switch. Or you could go the antenna rotor route, which is painfully slow. (30 second wait for a 180 degree turn)



Theoretically two identical highly directional antennas pointed in exact opposite directions should not effect each other, but unfortunately in the real world every antenna is a part of its environment so there really aren't any identical antennas. Perhaps in the future with the help of electronics there will be a high gain bi-directional TV antenna.


----------



## hokie93

Which antenna would be better the 91XG or the CM 4228?


The stations are around 68 miles away. I have a tree line about 120 yards from where the antenna would be mounted about 30ft. from the ground on the chiminey. I'm guessing the trees are about 15 or 20 foot taller than antenna. I already have a Channel Master 7777 pre amp.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sammer* /forum/post/15078393
> 
> 
> Theoretically two identical highly directional antennas pointed in exact opposite directions should not effect each other.



The antennas may not interact, but adding them together changes everything.


----------



## bozey45

I would choose the 91XG because in the case of those trees you can tilt up the 91XG about 15 degrees or so to somewhat compensate; I have that same tree problem and the 91 XG does me pretty well. I don't know your entire situation but I had to add a rotor because of trees. There is actually a couple of trees in the yard next door and depending on the station I'm aiming for, I can rotate the antenna to one side of the tree to the other to better pick up certain channels here. But I would definitely get the 91-XG I ordered mine from Solid Signal. Also have the CM7777 amp but am thinking about removing it because of overload.


----------



## hokie93

Thanks bozey45. One reason I was looking at the 91xg was how lite it is compared to the 4228 for rotor use.


On the 91xg where does the mast mount? Does it slide into the bottom or does it clamp on to the side some how?


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hokie93* /forum/post/15084676
> 
> 
> Thanks bozey45. One reason I was looking at the 91xg was how lite it is compared to the 4228 for rotor use.
> 
> 
> On the 91xg where does the mast mount? Does it slide into the bottom or does it clamp on to the side some how?


 http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/9...structions.pdf 

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=TD-91XG 


I've done a number of experiments with this antenna, and IMHO, it's quite good. Good gain and narrow beamwidth, which helps to reduce multi-path issues.


Steve


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hokie93* /forum/post/15084676
> 
> 
> Thanks bozey45. One reason I was looking at the 91xg was how lite it is compared to the 4228 for rotor use.
> 
> 
> On the 91xg where does the mast mount? Does it slide into the bottom or does it clamp on to the side some how?



Here is a picture of mine, which was just put up, getting a good signal on 2 stations 78.2 miles away, and I am 200+ft in a valley!

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s...Picture003.jpg


----------



## hokie93

Alright sounds like it might work better than the 4228. Thanks


----------



## Piggie

Not sure which antenna thread to use. If this is the wrong thread let me know.


Question, has anyone tried any of the new commercial Winegard High Band VHF/UHF combo antennas? They are all pretty new as far as I know, but hey I could be wrong.


If you need a list of the ones I am talking about let me know or this is the correct thread.


----------



## AubieKermit

Hey guys,


I did my homework and finally settled on a BD4 to install at my house. For those of you who own one of these, it came with a little rubber thingie that I assume is supposed to seal the connection. How in the heck does it do that? Also, does any one have any pointers on how to waterproof my connections?


TIA,

KC


----------



## cyberodie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/14824133
> 
> 
> Thanks for the updated plot. It looks like you will need to go with a rooftop, outdoor antenna. Unless there is something on the channel 2 translator that you want to watch and since KDLO appears to be out of the range of reliability, a 7-51/69 antenna, with a rotor and possibly a pre-amp will be needed.
> 
> 
> Channel Master is coming out with some new models soon, but for right now, the following Winegard antenna would be something to consider.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are looking for an attic mount, the CM4228 may get it done for UHF, but attic mounts are difficult for a VHF antenna that may need to be turned.



Thanks for the reply. I have one more question.


I don't know that I will be able to get a rotor up there. If I aim it towards KVVR CH 19 at 330 degrees, will I be able to pick up any of the channels behind to the SW?


Thanks.


----------



## Mariouchie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/14994286
> 
> 
> Totally agree....strong signals cause intermodulation distortion, which result in unwanted
> 
> noise on certain affected channels. With many strong signals, nearly ALL channels are affected.
> 
> 
> Low gain HDP-269 will accept much higher signal levels than any other Preamp...
> 
> and high gain CM-7777 is on the other end of that scale....
> 
> 
> Attenuation of signals within your attic is only thing that MIGHT allow you to use HDP-269.
> 
> Of course, since it is nearly impossible to predict how much loss you have, you'll
> 
> just have to try it and see how it works....
> 
> 
> BTW: The HDP-269 has more than adequate gain to drive downlead and a bunch of RF splitters.
> 
> If you add a SECOND distribution amp, it can overload the input of your DTV. So don't...
> 
> 
> Since the Omni doesn't pick up Ch6 now, there is no point in connecting it via UVSJ.
> 
> IF you indeed WANT to receive Ch6, try one of the options I listed above.



Holl_ands,


I just wanted to give you an update to my situation. Unfortunately, I was unable to post earlier due to my DTV dying on me in the midst of everything.


I know I was told to not use the CM7777, but 4.1 and 50.1 were at 52% and 63% respectively on a good day, and would fall off all the time (and at the worst possible times of course). Since I had the CM7777 in hand (and the time), I determined it was better to try it than to not and have to wait a week for a hdp269. My guess is there are more losses in my attic than expected. Once hooked up, 4.1 and 50.1's signals increased by 20% and none of the remaining stations fell off. It has been running for a several days now, and still no fall off's. I know this is NOT how it's supposed to be set-up and that it really shouldn't be working ... at all, but it's working. So, if it's working, I don't think I'm going to try and fix it.


The fact that I have a situation working for me, that defies all logic and reason, is ridiculously fitting for me.


Thanks again for all your help and great posts!


----------



## Jator

Was wondering if I posted what I have done so far if I could have someone with more experience critique and suggest any improvements.


I live in Camp Hill, PA and wanted to have my computer hooked up to my LCDTV act as a DVR. Wife factor means I can't have a rotor attached, thus I need to get ABC, CBS, FOX, PBS & NBC all consistently on a omni-directional antenna.


I purchased a DB2 Generic (American Eagle I think) and next to my chinmey (two story home). I have to run the cable down the side of the house, into the basement and then back up into our second story bedroom (my guess is the total coax length is 100' or so. Based on research that indicated longer than 50' requires a pre-amp, I purchased a Channel Master 7777 and isntalled.


Installed all the equipment and get good connection on all channels, though signal strength tends to bounce around somewhat (mostly on CBS). I believed that if I moved the power source from the pre-amp from my TV to the basement (now 50-60' between pre-amp and pwer supply), and then fed the output from the pre-amp into a powered 4 wasy splitter (for the remaining 40-50'), it would boost the signal strength to the TV and solve the fluxuating CBS signal. Truth be told, I lost CBS completely, though all other stations signals were better. I posted over at another forum and someone thought that it might be the signal is too strong, which may be the case. Based on TVFool's analysis of my location, I should be able to get away with an indoor antenna for most stations except FOX, but I found I had to do a lot of pointing to get each channel when the antenna was inside the house.


I do forsee CBS getting better as they transition from VHF to UHF on Feb. 17, 2009, however my NBC station is converting from UHF to VHF and is farther away, so I am worried about how that will play out.


Anyway, any suggestions on how to improve. Also, I have not installed the grounding clamp yet, I don't have anything to ground to other than the cold water pipes. Should I just ground to that or should I go buy a grounding rod and drive it into the ground and ground to that. Like I said, newbie here, so don't be affraid to point out my mistakes.


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jator* /forum/post/15089342
> 
> 
> Was wondering if I posted what I have done so far if I could have someone with more experience critique and suggest any improvements.
> 
> 
> I live in Camp Hill, PA and wanted to have my computer hooked up to my LCDTV act as a DVR. Wife factor means I can't have a rotor attached, thus I need to get ABC, CBS, FOX, PBS & NBC all consistently on a omni-directional antenna.
> 
> 
> I purchased a DB2 Generic (American Eagle I think) and next to my chinmey (two story home). I have to run the cable down the side of the house, into the basement and then back up into our second story bedroom (my guess is the total coax length is 100' or so. Based on research that indicated longer than 50' requires a pre-amp, I purchased a Channel Master 7777 and isntalled.
> 
> 
> Installed all the equipment and get good connection on all channels, though signal strength tends to bounce around somewhat (mostly on CBS). I believed that if I moved the power source from the pre-amp from my TV to the basement (now 50-60' between pre-amp and pwer supply), and then fed the output from the pre-amp into a powered 4 wasy splitter (for the remaining 40-50'), it would boost the signal strength to the TV and solve the fluxuating CBS signal. Truth be told, I lost CBS completely, though all other stations signals were better. I posted over at another forum and someone thought that it might be the signal is too strong, which may be the case. Based on TVFool's analysis of my location, I should be able to get away with an indoor antenna for most stations except FOX, but I found I had to do a lot of pointing to get each channel when the antenna was inside the house.
> 
> 
> I do forsee CBS getting better as they transition from VHF to UHF on Feb. 17, 2009, however my NBC station is converting from UHF to VHF and is farther away, so I am worried about how that will play out.
> 
> 
> Anyway, any suggestions on how to improve. Also, I have not installed the grounding clamp yet, I don't have anything to ground to other than the cold water pipes. Should I just ground to that or should I go buy a grounding rod and drive it into the ground and ground to that. Like I said, newbie here, so don't be affraid to point out my mistakes.



Do you have the screen on the DB2? If so , where is it pointed?


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AubieKermit* /forum/post/15088420
> 
> 
> Hey guys,
> 
> 
> I did my homework and finally settled on a BD4 to install at my house. For those of you who own one of these, it came with a little rubber thingie that I assume is supposed to seal the connection. How in the heck does it do that? Also, does any one have any pointers on how to waterproof my connections?
> 
> 
> TIA,
> 
> KC



You put it on the cable, before putting the end on. I did not use it. I ran tape on the connection up to the top, then sealed the top to the bottom on the unit with coax seal....


----------



## Jator




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* /forum/post/15089990
> 
> 
> Do you have the screen on the DB2? If so , where is it pointed?



The front of the antenna is pointing in the general direction of WGAL (channel 8), south (screen is pointing towards the North). Seems to be the best mid-point so far.


----------



## Falcon_77

I think this is the 2nd time I've heard of a DB2 pulling in a Low-VHF station, which still surprises me, considering many locations have major problems with a real Low-VHF antenna.


As for WGAL, you may get lucky, but it's likely that an upper VHF antenna will be needed. 7.5kW at an off angle probably won't leave much margin for error on a DB2 with about -18dB gain for 7-13.


Since 10 and 8 are almost in opposite directions, the CM2016 might be worth a look.


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jator* /forum/post/15090053
> 
> 
> The front of the antenna is pointing in the general direction of WGAL (channel 8), south (screen is pointing towards the North). Seems to be the best mid-point so far.



Looks like you are aimed the best that can be done... i would have prolly gone with the DB4 instead, so close in price, but I think you will be ok after the analog shutdown, with the possibility for a VHF-HI antenna...


----------



## Jator




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* /forum/post/15090691
> 
> 
> Looks like you are aimed the best that can be done... i would have prolly gone with the DB4 instead, so close in price, but I think you will be ok after the analog shutdown, with the possibility for a VHF-HI antenna...



Do you have a suggestion on the VHF-Hi antenna? I would prefer something small if at all possible.


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jator* /forum/post/15091400
> 
> 
> Do you have a suggestion on the VHF-Hi antenna? I would prefer something small if at all possible.



I would be tempted to try a CM2016:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=CM2016 


I know that you want to use DB2, but maybe combining these or just the 2016 after the shutdown, the DB2 pointed 85 degrees and the 2016 pointed roughly 135 degrees...


OR a CM 2001 pointed 135 degress with a joiner that blocks UHF and passing VHF and the DB2 pointed at 85 degrees....

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...om=Large#xview


----------



## Jator

Another technical question. I use a Vista Media Center machine inbetween the TV and the antenna. Lately, my signal strength is bouncing even more than before, with PBS and CBS dropping off for a period of time (both towers are within 6-7 miles of my home), CBS is VHF and PBS is UHF. If I unplug the pre-amp, nothing comes through, when I plug the pre-amp back in. If I had to guess, it's almost like the pre-amp isn't sending a consistent signal through.


Any suggestions on troubleshooting the issue?


Thanks.


----------



## Z2929

I recently hooked up my HD TV to this old antenna on the roof that was present when we moved there. Only two channels with there sub channels show up. On a analog TV I get many channels and even Toledo which is 60 miles or so. Attached are the antenna and my local channels.

Any opinions?


Thanks.

Attachment 124631 

Attachment 124633 

Attachment 124632


----------



## bozey45

that looks like a metro/suburban antenna (thats what I call those) that should be getting more than 2 channels on digital if the connections are all good; I assume you're using RG-6coax; if you haven't checked the connection at the antenna I would do that. Pointed SE you should be getting a number of channels. if you want more a rotor would have to be added. But I would check the connections first especially at the antenna and rotate it by hand back and forth to see if reception improves. If it doesn't then maybe an antenna upgrade would be needed.


----------



## cableuser001

Hi, I put together a coat hanger antenna in DB4 design. I am able to receive the big 4 channels. However, I am unable to get CW channel.


Q1. Is there any reason why it shouldn't have more 4 elements on each side? For convinience, I would like to have the antenna longer with 5 or 6 elements on each side, but not wider.


Q2. I am having trouble getting the channels I want due to the orientation of my rented condo. Please read about my condo orientation below (image attached), and suggest me ways to get better signal (either through better antenna deisign or any other idea).


I am about 15 miles away from the tv towers. I live in a rented condo. I cannot put anything on the roof. However I can probably clamp something to the balcony railing which is on the 13-degree side (refer the attached image). The red one is my condo, and the yellow ones are the neighbouring ones, which obstruct a clear line of sight to the towers.


The big 4 come in at about 13 degrees angle and CW comes in at about 3 degrees angle.


I cannot clamp the antenna to face the direction of the towers. The other condos obstruct a clear view (unless, ofcourse, if I can offset it and clamp it cantilevered. But it is not allowed by the HOA).


What works is this. I just place the antenna against the railing. ie, instead of facing the towers, the antenna's face is parallel to the LOS. I get the big 4 easily at about 75%, but not CW.


FYI, the big 4 are transmitting at 1MW and CW is transmitting at 125KW.



Thanks.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hokie93* /forum/post/15085015
> 
> 
> Alright sounds like it might work better than the 4228. Thanks



Maybe now, but maybe not after February when a lot of channels will be moving. Take a look at your TVFool and the gains here : http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cableuser001* /forum/post/15099352
> 
> 
> What works is this. I just place the antenna against the railing. ie, instead of facing the towers, the antenna's face is parallel to the LOS. I get the big 4 easily at about 75%, but not CW.



I looks like you are receiving the big 4 using a reflection. I'd try moving the antenna left or right while still aiming in the same direction and/or rotating slightly in another location to see if you get lucky with CW.


----------



## cableuser001

Below is the result from tv fools. If you mean 1Edge/2Edge by reflection, you are right. Would a DB8 work. I cannot move this antenna beyond the perimeter of my condo. Again, can I modify my DIY DB4 antenna to include more elements to increase the gain?


Network NM(dB) Pwr(dBm) Path Dist Color

CBS 44.7 -46.2 2Edge 14.0 Green

Fox 44.4 -46.4 1Edge 13.5 Green

NBC 44.2 -46.7 2Edge 14.5 Green

MyN 43.3 -47.6 1Edge 13.5 Green

ABC 41.8 -49.1 2Edge 14.0 Green

PBS 37.5 -53.4 2Edge 14.0 Green

PBS 36.7 -54.1 2Edge 13.9 Green

CW 33.8 -57.0 1Edge 14.9 Yellow



Noise Margin (NM): Higher the better

Predicted signal Power(dBm)

Path: LOS, 1Edge(Single edge diffraction), 2Edge(Double edge diffraction)


----------



## Z2929




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bozey45* /forum/post/15099168
> 
> 
> that looks like a metro/suburban antenna (thats what I call those) that should be getting more than 2 channels on digital if the connections are all good; I assume you're using RG-6coax; if you haven't checked the connection at the antenna I would do that. Pointed SE you should be getting a number of channels. if you want more a rotor would have to be added. But I would check the connections first especially at the antenna and rotate it by hand back and forth to see if reception improves. If it doesn't then maybe an antenna upgrade would be needed.



Thanks I'll check out those roof connections and rotate it a bit. It's directed

true north.


----------



## The Hound




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Z2929* /forum/post/15101553
> 
> 
> Thanks I'll check out those roof connections and rotate it a bit. It's directed
> 
> true north.



If you look at the antenna as an arrow, the point is away from the signal.

The tail, the vertical V would point toward the signal.

So if your antenna is truely pointing north, probably why you only get 2 stations.


----------



## PCTools

I played around with the Pwr (dBm) figures for the incoming signal for the digital transition. I plotted these for before and after to see how I would be impacted.


In reviewing, it appears that it will be pretty much a gain for me, expect for two channels. I was quite surprised to see a gain of 18.70 dBm on a channel.


1) How much of a rise in signal strength is normally required to have any impact on your TV viewing? I think you need to see about 1.5 or so more to see on increase with the onboard TV diagnostics.

2) Am I approaching this correctly? In other words, can I take the numbers from TVfool and use this as a baseline?

 

TV.pdf 39.7177734375k . file


----------



## holl_ands

Receive signal levels (dBm) in TVFool do NOT include attic/indoor loss, antenna gain

and balun/cable loss, which vary quite a bit with frequency. So to compare relative chances

of success, include (at least) these factors prior to Preamp (or Tuner if no Preamp).


I constructed an Excel spread sheet to do this:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...e#post10961518 


Most combo antennas have more gain at UHF than VHF...check specs and hdtvprimer.

A good balun may have 0.5 dB loss at VHF and 1.5 to 2.5 dB at UHF.

And refer to coax loss curves....


On the other hand, VHF channels tend to be more susceptible to man-made noise,

something that is not included in most propagation prediction programs....


PS: A "fair" comparison of DTV to Analog would require reducing analog dBm level by about 12 dB

to account for DTV coding improvements and Peak (Analog) vs Average (DTV) measurements.

But it appears that you were comparing DTV Before to DTV Post-Feb2009 (correct???).


=======================================

WILX (Lansing) is now on UHF Ch57 (43.4 kW ERP) and will take over VHF Ch10.
*FCC TVQ dBase (erroneously????) says Ch57 has a 0 meter high tower and 291.9 meter

for DTV Ch10. This would seriously diminish TVFool's signal level results.*


Fol. shows approved Change Proposal for 14.3 kW with a power increase request for 30 kW:
http://www.rabbitears.info/ss/ 

Use pull down menu under "AREA" to find Lansing.


CH11 and CH13 (Toledo) are relocating from UHF to VHF with power increases granted.

[To see which power TVFool is using, click on station callsign in the on-line report.]


So CH10, 11 & 13 (and many other DTV stations) could improve even further....

and reduction of adjacent/co-channel interference from Analog helps even more....


----------



## cableuser001

Hi,

I have two coaxial cables, which are about 20 and 25ft. One of them came with MANT940 antenna and the other I bought it off the shelf. The off-shelf antenna doesn't work properly and I get a weak signal. The cable with MANT940 works perfectly.


My questions:

1. What parameters make a good antenna? Is it the overall capacitance or resistance/impedance or both?

2. What should these parameters be? High/Low.

3. Can you suggest me a good cable which worked for you. I am looking for a 25ft. long cable to connect the antenna to TV. A link would be helpful.


Update:

Phillips cable's resistance is 2.6Ω and capacitance is 1nF per 20ft, so about 0.13Ω/ft

The other cable's resistance is 3.3Ω and capacitance is 1nF per 25ft, so about 0.132Ω/ft


The characteristics of both seem to be the same, except for the 2nd one's increased length. The 2nd one has RG59U written over it. So basically, both are RG59/U cables.


Am I right? Is this cable that bad, just because of the difference in its length?




Thanks.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cableuser001* /forum/post/15108078
> 
> 
> The cable with MANT940 works perfectly.



You have a defective cable.


The MANT940 has a preamp. That preamp should mask small the differences between your two cables. The fact that one cable works and the other doesn't points to a defective cable or connector.


----------



## Trek7300




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cableuser001* /forum/post/15108078
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The 2nd one has RG59U written over it. So basically, both are RG59/U cables.



I not a cable expert by any means. For a short run, RG59 is probably OK, but RG6 is much preferred for antenna / RF use. You can google the term "RG6" and there are links which explain the differences and where the original terminology came from. RG = Radio Guide -- A term the government used. 6= the page number that the specification for that particular cable was on.


----------



## cableuser001

Good to know the history.


1. I have white coaxial cables from my old place, which were laid by Cox for digital cable TV. There is nothing written over it. What could be these cables. "RG 6", or "RG6 Quad". They are thick and I can't make out the difference, without cutting the cable.


2. I am trying to connect an antenna to the converter box, with a 25ft cable. I know "RG6 Quad" is one of the best, but I want a realistic opinion, if RG6 would suffice. The reason is, I am buying a bunch of antenna supplies, and the site which has one doesn't have another. One site has everything, except cheap "RG6 Quad". So, I am settling for RG6.


3. I cannot drill holes, so I intend to use a "Flat coaxial coupler cable", for getting the cable inside. Alternatively, I want to use a thin coaxial cable which comes with converter boxes. What will be the effect of the signal if I do that. Would this thin cable be a major bottle neck, or will there be slight deterioration in the signal quality? I don't know the type of such cable (may be a RG 179/U), and if so I am not sure if it would block any frequencies. For OTA DTV, I would require something


----------



## Trek7300

I don't think there is a huge difference between RG-6 and RG-6 quad. The "quad" refers to the fact that there is usually twice as much sheilding. I think I read somewhere that regular RG-6 provides about 60% sheilding and RG-6 Quad is supposed to be about 90% shielded. I have also read that one manufacturer's "quad" may be better than another manufactuer's.


Another thing to be aware of. Most RG-6 (and RG-59) cable has a steel center conductor which is copper coated on the outside. You can easily see this if you look at the end of the center conductor under a bright light with a good magnifying glass. You can buy a version that has a solid copper conductor. I don't think that the solid copper version is necessarily needed. One exception is that some mast mounted pre-amplifiers get their DC power from a "Power Injector" which is located inside near the TV. Some of these will not work well with the steel conductor RG-6. The copper coated steel may carry the RF signal just fine, but the resistance is too high for the DC current needed by the pre-amp.


----------



## holl_ands

Only single shield, braided coax has shielding in range of 60-80%....like old RG-59.


Some dual shield RG-6 has TWO braided shields (total of about 90-95%),

whereas the better dual shield RG-6 has an aluminized mylar "wrap"

inside a braided coax, providing (nominal) 100% shielding.


Quad shield takes this to the next level, such as when you are within a couple miles of other transmitters.


As a cost compromise, Belden now makes Triple shielding RG-6 with mylar/braid/mylar.


BTW: Percentage numbers usually only apply to the braid portion(s), since mylar should be 100%.

The meaningful measurement is isolation versus frequency....


----------



## Trek7300

Thanks for the clarification. I am just a "dabbler" in all of this and have done a lot of reading just in the last week or so. So, after a while, all the facts start running together.


P.S. - What does the U or /U stand for as in RG59U ?


----------



## holl_ands

I think /U means Universal Application, based on equipment installation indicators found

in MIL-STD-196E, "Joint Electronics Type Designation System".


MIL-C-17F thru MIL-DTL-17H provide an explanation of the new all-numeric part number system,

but doesn't explain the meaning of /U.


=========================================

The original MIL-C-17/2 (7Sep1955) presumably defined RG-6/U (spec no longer on-line).


MIL-C-17/2A (Rev A, 24Apr1978) defined the revised RG-6A/U number, but did not explain the /U....


MIL-C-17/180B (Rev B, 20Feb1994) superseded MIL-C-17/2A, but deleted any mention of RG-6 number.

[Understandable given "RG-6" was no longer being used to describe a specific cable construction.]


There are only minor detail differences in the above specs, each describing a dual braid shield construction,

with each shield having 95% coverage (hence both provide up to 99.75% total coverage).


So if you see a cable with anything other than dual braid shields, it doesn't meet the specific construction

requirements found in the Mil Spec.....it's probably BETTER....since aluminized foil provides 100% coverage:
http://www.belden.com/pdfs/TechInfo/TechReliable.htm 


So don't try to read anything into whatever letters the manufacturers pull out of their hat to modify "RG-6".


==========================================

MIL-C-17/29C defined RG-59B/U (note they forgot to increment the Rev letter to C!!!).

It was superseded by MIL-C-17/184, which deleted all references to RG-59 numbers.

Construction is single shield with two alternative shield constructions with either 94.4% or 96.7% coverage.


----------



## Rick313

Are rabbit ears the pinnacle of indoor VHF reception? I've been trying to find an alternative to rabbit ears, but there doesn't seem to be one. Since there are a myriad of different kinds of UHF antennas out there, it puzzles me that the only thing they've come up with in the past 50 years for VHF is rabbit ears. From what I've read, rabbit ears are not particularly effective, so what gives? Is there anything available that might be more effective for indoor VHF reception?


----------



## holl_ands

Which VHF channels are you trying to receive??? Check your www.tvfool.com prediction....

Can we limit it to only Ch9 and Ch11 in the VHF-Hi band???


Currently, only KQCK-DT (Ch11) and KO5MD-DT (Ch5) are potentially receivable

DTV in the VHF band. But would require a moderate to high gain OUTDOOR antenna.

Do you really need these non-network stations????


Currently strong analog KBDI-TV (Ch12) is adjacent to weak KQCK-DT

(Ch11) and KPXH-DT (Ch13), which can make them difficult to receive.


Post-Feb2009, Analog KBDI-TV (Ch12) moves to Digital KBDI-DT (Ch13),

making it easier to receive KQCK-DT (Ch11).

However, analog KBDI-TV (Ch13) will be 40 dB stronger than low power

KPXH-DT (Ch13) and hence will block reception.


Post-Feb2009, Ch7 and Ch9 convert to DTV and should be readily receivable with RabbitEars.


I would also be careful to avoid using high gain Preamps:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=8185 


========================================

Back to your question....yes you could mount a VHF-Hi antenna in the attic (if available).


Or construct a DIY Yagi using a Folded Dipole, Reflector and Director elements:
http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html 

The bandwidth is only about 1 channel in VHF-Lo band and maybe 3 channels in VHF-Hi band,

so they aren't optimized for full-band use like a commercial antenna....

For Ch9 and Ch11 reception, cut the lengths for Ch10.

Also a good design exercise to see how big a "REAL" VHF antenna needs to be.

Anything smaller than the Folded Dipole would have NEGATIVE GAIN....


For extended VHF band coverage, a DIY LPDA (Log Periodic Dipole Array) would be

the next step up....requiring even more room.....


If attic is not available, perhaps you could attach it to the ceiling...or under a rug????

[You didn't say it had to look good....]


You also could construct a DIY Loop antenna by scaling up the size of a UHF loop

by 3 or 4 times....It can be circular, square or even rectangular....

VHF Loop (a simple piece of wire) could be scotch taped inside a window more or less

looking towards the desired tower. You'll need a 300 to 75-Ohm Balun Transformer.


======================================

Kerry Cozad (Dielectric Antennas) measured the gain for some REAL antennas.

For VHF-Hi band, CM-4228 8-Bay Antenna performed quite well, blowing away RabbitEars....

I have one in an upstairs closet.....


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15123917
> 
> 
> Which VHF channels are you trying to receive???



Currently, just channel 11; but post-transition 7, 9, 11, and 13. None of these should be a problem except for 11 since it is a good 60-70 miles away. I currently get very marginal reception of channel 11 (KQCK-DT) with a Terk HDTVa antenna (basically rabbit ears with an internal 10db amplifier).



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15123917
> 
> 
> Currently, only KQCK-DT (Ch11) and KO5MD-DT (Ch5) are potentially receivable DTV in the VHF band. But would require a moderate to high gain OUTDOOR antenna. Do you really need these non-network stations????



Well, it's a matter of want not need. After all, we're talking about TV here, so there's really never a need, but more channels is alway preferable to less.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15123917
> 
> 
> Back to your question....yes you could mount a VHF-Hi antenna in the attic (if available).



I live in an apartment, so I don't have an attic nor do I have a deck or patio, but I am on the third floor of a three story building, so that helps. That being said though, I'm more concerned with function over form. I've considered buying a Winegard HD-1080 antenna since it is supposed to do better on VHF-hi than most of it's competitors. However, I read one review that said it would be less effective than rabbit ears, so I guess that's a no go.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15123917
> 
> 
> Or construct a DIY Yagi using a Folded Dipole



This sounds like an interesting option. I think I'll give it a try.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15123917
> 
> 
> You also could construct a DIY Loop antenna by scaling up the size of a UHF loop by 3 or 4 times....It can be circular, square or even rectangular....VHF Loop (a simple piece of wire) could be scotch taped inside a window more or less looking towards the desired tower.



Wow! Thanks for all of these suggestions. I've done a lot of digging and haven't been able to find much in the way of alternatives. I appreciate your comprehensive response.


----------



## holl_ands

*ALTERNATIVE VHF ANTENNAS - I - for Indoors/Closets/Attic/Balcony:*


Back to your question....yes you could mount a VHF-Hi antenna in the attic (if available).


Or construct a DIY Yagi using a Folded Dipole, Reflector and Director elements:
http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html 

The bandwidth is only about 1 channel in VHF-Lo band and maybe 3 channels in VHF-Hi band,

so they aren't optimized for full-band use like a commercial antenna....

For Ch9 and Ch11 reception, cut the lengths for Ch10.

Also a good design exercise to see how big a "REAL" VHF antenna needs to be.

Anything smaller than the Folded Dipole would have NEGATIVE GAIN....


For extended VHF band coverage, a DIY LPDA (Log Periodic Dipole Array) would be

the next step up....requiring even more room.....


If attic is not available, perhaps you could attach it to the ceiling...or under a rug????

[You didn't say it had to look good....]


You also could construct a DIY Loop antenna by scaling up the size of a UHF loop

by 3 or 4 times....It can be circular, square or even rectangular....

VHF Loop (a simple piece of wire) could be scotch taped inside a window more or less

looking towards the desired tower. You'll need a 300 to 75-Ohm Balun Transformer.


======================================

Kerry Cozad (Dielectric Antennas) measured the gain for some REAL antennas.

For VHF-Hi band, CM-4228 8-Bay Antenna performed quite well, blowing away RabbitEars....

I have one in an upstairs closet.....


----------



## holl_ands

*ALTERNATIVE VHF ANTENNAS - II - for Indoors/Closets/Attic/Balcony:*


I should also mention the Gray-Hoverman SuperAntenna and SuperSized 4-Bay Antennas

that are getting a lot of attention in the DIY UHF Antenna thread:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/68820 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798265 


Although intended for UHF, like the CM-4228, some G-H versions have usable Hi-VHF band gain,

(similar to simple RabbitEars)...but a lot more than most typical UHF-only antennas.


If you search the thread for "VHF", you'll also find that removing the reflector on a 2-Bay

antenna provided "usable" Hi-VHF band gain. [This trick probably works for 4-Bay as well.]

Unfortunately, it allows UHF multipath to come in from the back of the antenna....


Post-Feb2009, more and more stations will be going to Circular Polarization to support

Mobile/Handheld robust waveform upgrade, as was discussed in the DIY VHF Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=15039143


----------



## stampeder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Piggie* /forum/post/15085247
> 
> 
> Not sure which antenna thread to use. If this is the wrong thread let me know.
> 
> 
> Question, has anyone tried any of the new commercial Winegard High Band VHF/UHF combo antennas? They are all pretty new as far as I know, but hey I could be wrong.
> 
> 
> If you need a list of the ones I am talking about let me know or this is the correct thread.



Up here in Canada we'll have a few more years of VHF-LO stations than you folks in the USA will, but for people who want to put up a combo antenna in the post-February, 2009 period from what I can see Winegard has put together a good package on first glance. They are selling the new HD7697P and HD7698P VHF-HIGH/UHF combos, which they claim have a flat bandwidth response on VHF-HIGH (unlike their dedicated VHF-HIGH YA-1713 antenna that really loses steam on Channel 13). VHF-High gain is up to about 12dB, and UHF gain goes up to about 13 or 14 dB too. As people try them out and maybe model them by computer we might be seeing a new prescription for those wanting a combo.


As for me, I'm still counting on VHF-LO stations for a few more years so I'm sticking with my Channel Master Quantum 1111 VHF/FM along with my Gray-Hoverman for UHF. I'm building my second SBGH to join the 2 as a DBGH for getting Seattle and Tacoma stations from my location southeast of Vancouver, BC.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I should also mention the Gray-Hoverman antenna that's getting a lot of attention
> 
> in the DIY UHF Antenna thread:
> http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/68820
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798265
> 
> 
> Although intended for UHF, like the CM-4228, some G-H versions have usable Hi-VHF band gain.



I should clarify that before everyone starts running to digitalhome.ca with the same old question, heh. The Gray-Hoverman is a great UHF antenna design with very high gains available. And like Doyt Hoverman said, its beauty lies in that there are only two electrical connection points on the whole antenna. But the GH UHF antennas dont have any VHF-HI net gain. In fact the net gain is negative for the VHF-HI channels. (there is some raw gain available, but that would only help those in very noisy atmospheric conditions) Some who are very close to VHF-HI stations have reported that they have been pleased with the reception on the UHF GH. Of course, they could probably pick up those stations with anything. Using the UHF GH with a separate VHF-HI (or VHF-HI/VHF-LO) antenna via combiner or a CM0264 preamp is a great option, thats what I do.


There is a GH-4 VHF-HI version available, for VHF-HI only, with some very nice gains. But keep in mind, its a large antenna. My 20% smaller fractalized version of it is still 57"Wide by 87"High.


For decent UHF and VHF-HI reception in one antenna, I would recommend building mclapps 4 bay forward swept bowtie, 9 1/2" over 9", 15 inch reflector to element spacing, with a 36" to 44" forward swept reflector. Its harder to build than a GH, but it does have VHF-HI gains similiar to the RS VU-90. Directions for it are also found in the above avsforum thread.


----------



## holl_ands

*ALTERNATIVE VHF ANTENNAS - III - for Indoors/Closets/Attic/Balcony:*


Here's a link to (mostly UHF) gain curves (note gain in dBi = dBd + 2.15 dB):

a. 2-Bay with Screen Reflector

b. Original 4-Bay Hoverman without Reflector (no more Hi-VHF gain than a dipole)

c. Original 4-Bay Hoverman with "stick" Reflectors (my old one is stored in the garage)

d. Original 4-Bay Hoverman with Screen Reflectors
http://www.qsl.net/va3rr/hdtv/hoverman.htm 


And a link to the Gray-Hoverman Superantenna webpage:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/ 


FYI: Here are the Hi-VHF gain curves (per range measurements) for some of

super-sized 4-Bay antenna designs. Winegard type "stick reflectors"

works a lot better for VHF than C-M type screen (removing it may help???).


I added the CH07-CH13 scale to charts for easier understanding....


----------



## 300ohm

Yeah, the Winegard stick type elements also have the advantage of being potentially easier to build and more durable than a bow tie.



> Quote:
> And a link to the Gray-Hoverman Superantenna webpage:
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/



Also check out the digitalhome.ca forum for tweaks on that original version.


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> FYI: Here are the Hi-VHF gain curves (per NEC simulations) for some of
> 
> super-sized 4-Bay antenna designs. Winegard type "stick reflectors"
> 
> works a lot better for VHF than C-M type screen (removing it may help???).



Those graphs are from actual tests not NEC simulated but the NEC simulation shows very similar results.

The reason that the stick style appears to work better has more to do with the driven element size and spacing than reflector style.

Using a screen of the same size (width) as a rod reflector works just as well. A whisker style cut to the right length will work just as well as a flat element type with the larger reflector.

Removing the factory small screen may work better for some VHF-HI channels on a 4221 but not better than a larger (36" wide) screen or series of rods (even threaded rod).


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Kerry Cozad (Dielectric Antennas) measured the gain for some REAL antennas.



The gain figures in those charts are computer simulated Raw gain numbers.


----------



## holl_ands

Kerry Cozad performed actual measurements on REAL antennas

(unlike most any other gain figures you'll see):
https://secure.connect.pbs.org/confe...ns/TC05_43.htm 
http://www.dielectric.com/broadcast/...ntennas%20.pdf


----------



## cableuser001

Hi,

I have built a db8 antenna and it is fine for one TV. However, when I use it to extend it to another TV using a splitter and about a 75' RG6 cable, the signal deteriorates. I want to do two things, use a preamp to improve the signal and then a distribution amplifier to boost the signal for the second TV.


1. Would this work? I heard that for digital OTA, the signal can only be improved with a better antenna.


2. Can someone suggest me a preamp, where I don't need to run a second cable for powering up the preamp? Something which will inject the power into the coax-directly will be better.


Any other suggestions for my situation?


Equipment:

1. Zenith DTT 901 and Echostar TR-40CRA


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cableuser001* /forum/post/15132000
> 
> 
> 2. Can someone suggest me a preamp, where I don't need to run a second cable for powering up the preamp? Something which will inject the power into the coax-directly will be better.



Virtually all preamps run power up the coax.


You won't need both a preamp and a distribution amp. Either one will work.


Theoretically, a preamp provides slightly better performance than a distribution amplifier.


A preamp needs to be selected so that it doesn't overload. One such product is the Winegard HDP-269, but it can overload if you are close to the transmitters. Yet if you are that close you wouldn't need a preamp at all.


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15131957
> 
> 
> Kerry Cozad performed actual measurements on REAL antennas
> 
> (unlike most any other gain figures you'll see):
> https://secure.connect.pbs.org/confe...ns/TC05_43.htm
> http://www.dielectric.com/broadcast/...ntennas%20.pdf



He performed real measurements of antennas but that plot is not the plot for the real measurements.

Here is a quote in the summary of that report


"Only a small sample of the measurements made is

presented in this paper. Measured gains will be

presented at the NAB Engineering Conference, as

they were not available at the time of writing of this

paper, as well as additional pattern analysis data."


The numbers in that plot are the raw gain numbers that you would get if you were to run those antennas in computer simulations.


----------



## willscary

I have found several good articles online about antenna spacing. I have also seen many good posts on the subject in various forums. I still have one question that I can't find an answer to and I am hoping someone here knows the answer.


Depending on the frequencies involved, the spacing needed to eliminate a pair of antennas from interfering with eachother can be as little as 14 inches for upper UHF and as large as 72 inches for upper VHF and FM.


I can not find, however, if this is the spacing between the active elements of the two antennas or if it includes the reflectors also. In my case, I have 4 antennas that I am installing next week. The top antenna will be a 91XG in which the main horizontal beam will be 43 feet above the ground. Underneath the 91XG will be a Funke psp.1922 pointed in nearly exactly the same direction. The 91XG will be used to pull in all UHF channels to the east while the Funke will only be used to pull in channel 11 (a Jointenna will be used to combine the channel 11 output of this antenna with another Funke pointed WNW that will pull in channels 7 and 9). I know that if the antennas are too close together, they will interact with eachother and cause interference. Since channel 11 is the longest wavelength, I need only to space the antennas far enough apart to satisfy its frequency. Thus, I need to place the two antennas about 4'-8" apart.


The question that I am asking here is:


Is the 4'-8" measured from the active elements and thus, the main horizontal beam, or is the 4'-8" measured from the top of the Funke reflector to the bottom of the 91XG reflector? If I need to measure from the reflectors, this will increase the vertical distance needed by several feet.


Along the same lines, the Funke will be attached as close to the top of the tower / bottom of the mast as possible. The Funke has the rear reflector that is fairly deep. If I mount the antenna very close to the top of the tower, will the tower interfere with the antenna reception? Will it affect the reflector's work in any way? Should it be a certain distance above the top of the Rohn 25G tower?


I only get one good chance to get this correct as I am renting a lift for a day to install all of the antennas, amps and cables.


Thanks for any help you can give!


Bill


----------



## 300ohm

Well, heres a good article on stacking antennas, that may apply to spacing distances too :
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/stacking/stacking2.htm 


Notice the apertature shape of the yagi, its a horizontal oval. A corner reflector on the yagi would probably make the shape more circular.


I would err on the side of more spacing, as long as its practical and strong.


----------



## cpcat

Typically, antenna spacing is measured center-boom to center-boom for stacking, and distance between nearest horizontal elements for preventing interference.


Rule-of-thumb dictates around 36 inch spacing to prevent interference with uhf, 48 inches for hi vhf, and 60 inches (or greater) for lo vhf.


----------



## willscary

cpcat...


That is exactly what I was afraid someone would say. I need to keep the nearest horizontal elements 4'-8" apart to keep the interference away from the channel 11 Funke antenna? This would mean that the top of the rear reflector on the Funke needs to be 4'-8" below the bottom of the rear mesh reflector on the 91XG. Is this true?


Also, what about distance from top of the tower? Do I need to keep the Funke 4'-8" above the tower ot eliminate interference, or does the tower NOT interfere like the 91XG elements do?


Bill


----------



## holl_ands

Here's another good article re Stacked Antenna spacing:
http://www.grantronics.com.au/docs/StkYagis.pdf 


Bear in mind that results to optimize single frequency performance (e.g. Ham radio)

must be taken with a handful of salt when designing for 2:1 UHF frequency range....


----------



## willscary

I'm not really looking to satck two antennas for added gain...I am looking at how far apart I need to place a UHF and a VHF antenna on the same mast to avoid interference from one another. I know that I need 4'-8" for channel 11 and less for all UHF channels, so that is the minimum distance I am looking at. The question is:


Is the distance measured from the center horizontal boom or from the rear reflectors?


the second question is whether or not I need to consider interference from the Rohn tower itself. Do I need to be 4'-8" above the top of the tower / bottom of the mast?


Bill


----------



## cpcat

I wouldn't worry about the tower.


The rule-of-thumb is just that. You may get away with narrower spacing with only a little/no loss of performance. It comes down to practicality in the end. For example, 36 inches is OK for hi vhf in my experience but I wouldn't push it any closer unless you absolutely have to. The upper vhf hi (say 10-13) channels should be more forgiving.


For spacing to prevent interference, measure from nearest horizontal antenna parts. This means reflector to reflector.


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *willscary* /forum/post/15135785
> 
> 
> I'm not really looking to satck two antennas for added gain...I am looking at how far apart I need to place a UHF and a VHF antenna on the same mast to avoid interference from one another. I know that I need 4'-8" for channel 11 and less for all UHF channels, so that is the minimum distance I am looking at. The question is:
> 
> 
> Is the distance measured from the center horizontal boom or from the rear reflectors?
> 
> 
> the second question is whether or not I need to consider interference from the Rohn tower itself. Do I need to be 4'-8" above the top of the tower / bottom of the mast?
> 
> 
> Bill




If they are dedicated antennas for two totally different bands like the ones you have the spacing isn't super critical. They shouldn't interact much if any at any reasonable spacing. Don't worry about any interaction with the tower either.


Where you run into problems is when the elements from one antenna or any other metal near by is the right length to be resonant with the other antenna. The tower is running vertical so it shouldn't bother a horizontal antenna a bit and a VHF antenna shouldn't have many elements that are resonant on UHF and visa versa. To be safe get what spacing you can but don't sweat it too much.


----------



## cableuser001

Hi,

I am trying to build a 8-bay antenna. It seems that it is just two 4-bay antennas. However, I want to know, how far apart do I need to separate the two sections? Any suggestions?


Thanks.


----------



## cableuser001

Hi,

I have a 3-way splitter very similar to this one

__
https://flic.kr/p/2665312384
​

How does a better one look? I use this one for combining signals from two antennas and also to split. It is OK so far, but am I missing out on some better ones?


Thanks.


----------



## Davird_Jr

I posted this in my local forum, but I thought it might be of interest to someone here:


I have mentioned many times on this thread my ongoing struggles to receive WNYT & WXXA OTA. The past few months have been particularly bad especially for WNYT which for most of that time was not receivable and when I could get it I was getting between one and two bars (out of ten) of signal strength. I would usually get two bars of signal strength on WXXA. I had been using a 30ish year old Radio Shack UHF/VHF combo 160 inch rooftop antenna that came with my house for VHF and a seperate UHF AD XG91 antenna combined through a CM 7777 preamp. UHF reception has been pretty good for the last year and a half or so, but it has been a struggle with VHF reception. I live in the northwestern Berkshire Mountain range, just to the east of Mt. Greylock, the highest peak in Mass. I sit about 49 miles east of the transmitters broadcasting the Albany networks. I have done a lot of research into my problem and decided to replace my Radio Shack with a new antenna. I narrowed it down to a Channel Master 3671 or a Winegard HD8200U. I decided to go with the Winegard and ordered it from Amazon because it was supposed to be UPS shippable and there's no place around here to get one. I was suprised at how long the box was at seven feet and it arrived with all but one staple removed and the antenna suffered a bit of cosmetic damage in transit including a few slightly bent elements that I was able to straighten without much trouble. All of the parts were there however and it wasn't much trouble to assemble. It was a bit bigger than I expected, about three feet longer than the Radio Shack it replaced. So I got it installed and aimed and checked my TVs. Well to my surprise my signal strength on WNYT and WXXA went from one to two bars up to a solid ten bars (out of ten) on both channels. I was quite amazed and wish I had replaced this antenna long ago. 6 and 10 analog now come in crystal clear and I'm even getting channel 2 out of Utica sound and snowy picture. Simply an amazing antenna and I recommend it highly to anyone on the fringe. I should be set now for the analog shutoff when channels move back to VHF. Very satisfied with this antenna.



I have a question to add to this though. My antenna is grounded to a ground rod where the coax enters the house. (The mast is not grounded seperately.) This is on the opposite side of the house lentgthwise from where my electrical service enters and this ground has been in place for probalby thirty or more years long before I bought the house. Also my DISH Satellite antenna is grounded on the opposite side of the same end of the house so i have potentially three grounding points. I have read that all grounds need to be connected by # 6 copper wire to the main service, but this is not the case on this house. The instructions that came with the antenna suggest grounding the mast also and using a lightning arrestor. My question is the copper line and the mast ground and the lightning arrestor really necessary or is it overkill?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> My question is the copper line and the mast ground and the lightning arrestor really necessary or is it overkill?



Thats the way the new code has it. The old code was the way you have it now.



> Quote:
> My antenna is grounded to a ground rod where the coax enters the house.



Thru a grounding block ? If so thats your lightning arrestor. If not, get one. Theyre only $3.95 or so at Lowes or Home Depot.


----------



## Davird_Jr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15145598
> 
> 
> Thats the way the new code has it. The old code was the way you have it now.
> 
> 
> 
> Thru a grounding block ? If so thats your lightning arrestor. If not, get one. Theyre only $3.95 or so at Lowes or Home Depot.



Yes it is through a grounding block. Am i in serious danger if I leave things the way they are/have been for the last 30ish years? If so is this something that has to be done by an electrician? This would require quite a run of # 6 copper.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Davird_Jr* /forum/post/15145388
> 
> 
> UHF reception has been pretty good for the last year and a half or so, but it has been a struggle with VHF reception. . . . . I have done a lot of research into my problem and decided to replace my Radio Shack with a new antenna.



Are you still using the 91-XG for UHF?


----------



## The Hound

HAHA

I asked the same question.

Yes, he is.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> If so is this something that has to be done by an electrician? This would require quite a run of # 6 copper.



No, it doesnt have to be done by an electrician, since youre only grounding the wire to the outside of the electrical box somewhere, assuming your electrical box is already properly grounded.


Yeah, new #6 copper is pricey. If youre going to do it, I would shop or look around for used wire or discounts on already cut lengths.


----------



## Davird_Jr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15153668
> 
> 
> No, it doesnt have to be done by an electrician, since youre only grounding the wire to the outside of the electrical box somewhere, assuming your electrical box is already properly grounded.
> 
> 
> Yeah, new #6 copper is pricey. If youre going to do it, I would shop or look around for used wire or discounts on already cut lengths.



OK, so I just connect ground box on Sat to grounding box on antenna downlead to main power ground. As far as my box being grounded properly, I had my kitchen remodeled two years ago and added a sub panel and lots of expensive wiring for my kitchen. This was done by a licensed electrician per MA law and was inspected. I am assuming my service was grounded properly or someone would have said something??? I know that there is a large cable of wire coming out where the electrical meter connects to the house and goes down into the ground. I would speculate that it is about 3/8 inch thick and is stranded bare wire. It is greenish white in color so I believe it is copper. So I would just attach the # 6 to that wire somewhere, another grounding block perhaps. Does the # 6 just lay on the ground around the outside of the house?


Thanks for the assistance.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I know that there is a large cable of wire coming out where the electrical meter connects to the house and goes down into the ground. I would speculate that it is about 3/8 inch thick and is stranded bare wire. It is greenish white in color so I believe it is copper. So I would just attach the # 6 to that wire somewhere, another grounding block perhaps. Does the # 6 just lay on the ground around the outside of the house?



With the recent inspection, Im sure the box is grounded.


I certainly wouldnt cut into the wire from the meter. Clamping a wire to a bare exposed portion of it should be OK.


And that wire is ground, so no additional grounding block needed. The grounding blocks are just "lightning arrestors" for the coax cable which attaches to the antenna, nothing else.


You can bury that #6 wire if you like.


Also, the wire can be bigger than #6, but the hole on most grounding blocks will only accept #6.


----------



## Davird_Jr

Many thanks. Looks like a spring project. Spring comes late in these parts.


----------



## willscary

I am setting up a 4 antenna system in order to capture 2 different television markets. I am pointing a 91XG at 93 degrees in order to receive my local UHF stations, which all are from 89-97 degrees. Under that I am pointing a Funke psp.1922 at 89 degrees to receive channel 11.


Below the Funke will be another UHF antenna, perhaps a small Blonder Tongue single channel antenna for channel 31, which is weak and situated at 326 degrees. Finally, I have another Funke psp.1922 that will be aimed at 312 degrees in order to receive weak channels 7 and 9.


My plan was to use a CM 7777 to join the 91XG to the Funke for channels 7 and 9. Each of the other 2 antennas would have their own amplification, another 7777 for the channel 31 antenna and a Winegard AP-8275 for channel 11. These two antennas will be run seperately into the house. Once inside the house and past the preamp power insertion, I would add the single channels to the Main UHF/7&9 signal via a pair of jointennas with the channel 11 jointenna being first in the line. Once all channels are joined, they are sent directly to a 2 way splitter and off to the TVs.


I thought that this system would give me the highest performance I can get without the use of a rotor. I also thought that it would be best to run the antennas directly into their preamps, then into the house where they could be joined after the preamp stage. This, I thought, would give me amplification of the best available signals with the lowest amount of added noise. The amplification could then be used to overcome the loss induced by the jointennas.


I was just told that jointennas are usually mast mounted prior to the preamplification stage. If this is the case, wouldn't the signal going to the preamp be considerably less? Are jointennas a lossless joiner? Where should I install the jointennas? I thought my original idea would be best because the stronger amplified signal is actually meant to overcome losses due to long cable runs, splitter loss and jointenna loss.


Help!


Bill


----------



## b1gmoose




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *willscary* /forum/post/15170827
> 
> 
> I am setting up a 4 antenna system in order to capture 2 different television markets. I am pointing a 91XG at 93 degrees in order to receive my local UHF stations, which all are from 89-97 degrees. Under that I am pointing a Funke psp.1922 at 89 degrees to receive channel 11.
> 
> 
> Below the Funke will be another UHF antenna, perhaps a small Blonder Tongue single channel antenna for channel 31, which is weak and situated at 326 degrees. Finally, I have another Funke psp.1922 that will be aimed at 312 degrees in order to receive weak channels 7 and 9.
> 
> 
> My plan was to use a CM 7777 to join the 91XG to the Funke for channels 7 and 9. Each of the other 2 antennas would have their own amplification, another 7777 for the channel 31 antenna and a Winegard AP-8275 for channel 11. These two antennas will be run seperately into the house. Once inside the house and past the preamp power insertion, I would add the single channels to the Main UHF/7&9 signal via a pair of jointennas with the channel 11 jointenna being first in the line. Once all channels are joined, they are sent directly to a 2 way splitter and off to the TVs.
> 
> 
> I thought that this system would give me the highest performance I can get without the use of a rotor. I also thought that it would be best to run the antennas directly into their preamps, then into the house where they could be joined after the preamp stage. This, I thought, would give me amplification of the best available signals with the lowest amount of added noise. The amplification could then be used to overcome the loss induced by the jointennas.
> 
> 
> I was just told that jointennas are usually mast mounted prior to the preamplification stage. If this is the case, wouldn't the signal going to the preamp be considerably less? Are jointennas a lossless joiner? Where should I install the jointennas? I thought my original idea would be best because the stronger amplified signal is actually meant to overcome losses due to long cable runs, splitter loss and jointenna loss.
> 
> 
> Help!
> 
> 
> Bill



Bill,


If you're really looking for the lowest possible loss, go to www.tinlee.com It won't be cheap, but again, they will have the lowest loss and they can tune it to what ever frequencies you need.


~ryan


----------



## stampeder

Absolutely agree about Tin Lee gear: very clean signal-wise, and does exactly what you need it to do.


----------



## dtloken

I am researching on what I need for an antenna - I live in Racine, WI which is situated between Milwaukee and Chicago.


According to TV Fool:











So I am about 30 miles South of Milwaukee and 55 miles North of Chicago's transmitters, with them being almost exactly 180 degrees apart from each other.


I've never done OTA TV but with the high quality of broadcast digital TV and the fact that I just don't watch that much TV I am ditching the cable with its ever increasing rates.


My setup, a digital TV - a Sony KDL32S2010 which is a 32" LCD (I'm just curious about what it has for an ATSC tuner and the sensitivity/quality of it). I am limited to an indoor antenna (No attic/outdoor installation for now, lets assume that). My final setup will likely be using (for a tuner) a TivoHD, DTV Pal DVR or a HDHomerun being fed into a small media PC. Again, I'm interested in the respective tuners each device uses.


Given that I don't own an antenna now and have never used OTA TV I don't know to look for in an antenna. I'm planning to pick up a CECB (For testing OTA reception and to later use on a non-digital bedroom TV) and an antenna soon. Would something like an Antennas Direct DB2 (Located in room) or DB4 (In a closet or hung on a wall behind a bookshelf or other object) perhaps be suitable? I've also been looking for a Radio Shack 1880 on eBay (If anyone knows where to find one or has one they want to part with.







) as well.


I'm looking to be able to receive all my locals: ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX and PBS (This is what I worry about since they have two channels, one UHF with the SD subchannels and the other a VHF high channel that carries only their high def channel). What are my hopes for pulling in any Chicago stations? Being able to get WGN and WTTW (This would give me a huge amount of PBS content) would be great, any independents or Chicago major affiliates would be nice but not entirely necessary.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *willscary* /forum/post/15170827
> 
> 
> I thought my original idea would be best because the stronger amplified signal is actually meant to overcome losses due to long cable runs, splitter loss and jointenna loss.



Bill, your plan is far better than the typical installation.


Most people want a single preamp, hence the suggestion to mount Jointennas at the antenna.


----------



## Don_M

*dtloken*,


Reliable reception from Chicago is a tough proposition at that distance from an indoor antenna of any kind. Beyond 20-30 miles, the antenna needs to be outside for good results. Typically, more than half of UHF signals -- channels 14-69 as shown in the "real" column of the report -- are lost by placing an antenna indoors or in the attic.


Milwaukee stations are a better bet given their stronger signals, but _only_ in a wood-frame home. Brick, stucco or aluminum siding will block most or all signals. Placing the antenna directly in front of a north-facing window would help in that case, but not if the window contains low-E glass, which contains metallic oxide, or an aluminum screen.


The DB-4 is the best choice among the three antenna models you mentioned.


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/15188494
> 
> *dtloken*,
> 
> 
> Reliable reception from Chicago is a tough proposition at that distance from an indoor antenna of any kind. Beyond 20-30 miles, the antenna needs to be outside for good results. Typically, more than half of UHF signals -- channels 14-69 as shown in the "real" column of the report -- are lost by placing an antenna indoors or in the attic.
> 
> 
> Milwaukee stations are a better bet given their stronger signals, but _only_ in a wood-frame home. Brick, stucco or aluminum siding will block most or all signals. Placing the antenna directly in front of a north-facing window would help in that case, but not if the window contains low-E glass, which contains metallic oxide, or an aluminum screen.
> 
> 
> The DB-4 is the best choice among the three antenna models you mentioned.



A DB4, outside in a heavy pot would work, if you can "sneak" that past whoever is "baning" antennas....


----------



## dtloken




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* /forum/post/15188769
> 
> 
> A DB4, outside in a heavy pot would work, if you can "sneak" that past whoever is "baning" antennas....



Well, they're not banned it is just that my situation precludes the easy mounting of an antenna. I was thinking of cementing a post inside a pot which the antenna could be mounted on. At ground level however I would be worried about theft given where I live.


The window option is doable although fairly unsightly. Would a pre-amplifier be necessary if the outside option were to be made workable (given the cable run).


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dtloken* /forum/post/15189204
> 
> 
> Well, they're not banned it is just that my situation precludes the easy mounting of an antenna. I was thinking of cementing a post inside a pot which the antenna could be mounted on. At ground level however I would be worried about theft given where I live.
> 
> 
> The window option is doable although fairly unsightly. Would a pre-amplifier be necessary if the outside option were to be made workable (given the cable run).



What do you mean by easy mounting? Also, I take it that you are on the first floor? If you could concrete a 10ft pole in a pot, that would work nice...


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dtloken* /forum/post/15189204
> 
> 
> 
> The window option is doable although fairly unsightly.



Not necessarily. One man's unsightly is another man's beautiful. The Eiffel Tower was originally scorned as ugly.


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/15191248
> 
> 
> The Eiffel Tower was originally scorned as ugly.



Probably because radio antennas were installed on it shortly after it was built!


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dtloken* /forum/post/15189204
> 
> 
> Would a pre-amplifier be necessary if the outside option were to be made workable (given the cable run).



Probably not, unless the resulting cable run is more than 100 feet -- or the signals are split between two or more TVs. Most times it's best to see how well the antenna works by itself, then add a pre-amp if needed.


----------



## Falcon_77

Solid Signal has advised that the new CM 4221 and 4228's are now available. The 4228's just came in today.


If the pricing wasn't higher than the old ones, I would probably order one for testing purposes (I may anyway).


If anyone can test the new models, I would be interested in the results.


----------



## 300ohm

It would be great if when someone does get the new CM4221 or CM4228, they would post pictures and detailed dimensions of it for modeling purposes.


----------



## ttabbal

I've attached my tvfool results. I'm in the SLC, UT area, ZIP 84096. I'm currently doing OK with a silver sensor in the garage, but I'm getting little dropouts I'd like to clean up. I'm interested more in after 2009 as channel 13 here will be moving back to VHF-HI. From reading around a bit, the CM4228 sounds nice, but I'm wondering if it's overkill? I was considering trying the CM2016 as it advertises 7-69 and I am reasonably close to the towers at 13 miles. It's also smaller and cheaper, which is nice for the wife.


I have RG6 running to the roof with a patch panel in the basement. I'll likely have 2 splitters in the system, but I see no need for more than that. I tried the monoprice.com outdoor amplified antenna with poor results. Without the amp, it's not strong enough, with it I overpower everything. And I expect the amp is the cheap noisy variety. So I want to move away from amps and a better antenna on the roof seems like just the ticket.


Any tips would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ttabbal* /forum/post/15199390
> 
> 
> I've attached my tvfool results. I'm in the SLC, UT area, ZIP 84096. I'm currently doing OK with a silver sensor in the garage, but I'm getting little dropouts I'd like to clean up. I'm interested more in after 2009 as channel 13 here will be moving back to VHF-HI. From reading around a bit, the CM4228 sounds nice, but I'm wondering if it's overkill? I was considering trying the CM2016 as it advertises 7-69 and I am reasonably close to the towers at 13 miles. It's also smaller and cheaper, which is nice for the wife.
> 
> 
> I have RG6 running to the roof with a patch panel in the basement. I'll likely have 2 splitters in the system, but I see no need for more than that. I tried the monoprice.com outdoor amplified antenna with poor results. Without the amp, it's not strong enough, with it I overpower everything. And I expect the amp is the cheap noisy variety. So I want to move away from amps and a better antenna on the roof seems like just the ticket.
> 
> 
> Any tips would be greatly appreciated.



The 2016 would be great (no need for the "expensive" and big 4228)[ another to consider is a DB4...], maybe maybe a distribution amp, with low gain if you are going to split more the once, but at those distances with LOS, anything outside will be great....


----------



## ttabbal




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* /forum/post/15199611
> 
> 
> The 2016 would be great (no need for the "expensive" and big 4228)[ another to consider is a DB4...], maybe maybe a distribution amp, with low gain if you are going to split more the once, but at those distances with LOS, anything outside will be great....



Thanks! I know the 4228 isn't really all that expensive, but if it's not necessary, I can mount a smaller antenna and the wife will be happier.


I also just read in the local thread that Channel 13 is going to stay UHF now. I guess they realized that a lot of people were buying UHF only antennas as that's all they needed in the past. Thanks for the DB4 recommendation, it looks like a great antenna for my needs.


----------



## ttabbal




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/15200271
> 
> 
> DB-4 for VHF



I discovered in the forums that I don't need VHF after all, the one station that was going to use it decided against it. So I went with the DB4. It's a little smaller and I think the wife will be happier with it.


If they do end up going VHF, I can add a simple antenna for 13 and join it to the system. I've been able to get their analog signal with rabbit ears, so I don't need much for them. If that doesn't work, I guess I'll have a DB4 for sale.


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/15200271
> 
> 
> DB-4 for VHF????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????



VHF 13, at just a few miles, I really do not think it will be a problem...


----------



## dtloken

Ok, so say I do go with a DB4. Chicago and Milwaukee's transmitters are 180 degrees apart from each other in my location.


If I aim the antenna towards Chicago will the antenna pull in Milwaukee from the rear assuming the signal is strong enough? Should I consider a second antenna back to back with the first using an antenna combiner?


----------



## holl_ands

At those high signal levels, nearly anything metallic is going to pick up CH13....

Any of the 4-Bay antennas should do the job, whether A-D, W-G or C-M.


Also note extending screen size on CM-4221 increased VHF gain up to 10 dB:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=15129303


----------



## DrPyro

I need some help cleaning up my OTA signal. Specifically, I live in Grand Island, NY (Buffalo, NY). My problem is that I live about 1-2 miles from about 1/2 of the transmitters for Buffalo, the other 1/2 are about 30 miles away. I currentlly use a CM 4221 in the attic and have no problem recieving everything but the local NBC station (WGRZ). This station is notirious for being difficult to recieve and I have to add a preamp to recieve NBC reliably enough for my HTPC (HDHomeRun) to cleanly record my shows. However, the preamp overloads my TV input so i can't complete a scan. I've attached my tvfool results.


I need some advice on where to spend my $ to improve the reception and have a few questions....

1) NBC(WGRZ 30 miles) and CW (WNLO - 1 mile) are on adjacent channels, is this causing my problem? If so, how to fix it?

2) Would a YAGI type antenna help to isolate the two channels that only have 25deg of seperation in headings? If so, any recommendations?

3) My CM4221 has been dammaged due to several moves, I have taped together as best as possible, could this be causing the problems?

4) With the antenna mounted in the attic (on wood), do i have to ground the back CM4221 array? If so, how?


Thanks for all of the help, in advance!

-DrPyro


----------



## stampeder

DrPyro, 2 possibilities:

take out the preamp and just amplify that one channel
leave in the preamp but just attenuate that one channel

Check out Tin Lee and ask them how to drop or boost the signal on only WGRZ while leaving the others as they are, depending on which option you choose. Personally I'd get rid of that preamp and amplify only WGRZ.
http://www.tinlee.com 
Tin Lee gear is top quality and the staff are very helpful.


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dtloken* /forum/post/15201948
> 
> 
> If I aim the antenna towards Chicago will the antenna pull in Milwaukee from the rear assuming the signal is strong enough?



Probably not. You could try to remove the reflector panels from the back of a DB-4 on an experimental basis. The "bowties" are bi-directional when used without the reflector. Be aware that this will reduce antenna gain, so it might not yield the consistent reception you're seeking from Chicago.



> Quote:
> Should I consider a second antenna back to back with the first using an antenna combiner?



This may work, or it may not. You'll have to find out whether the two antennas will interfere with one another through a second experiment. If results aren't good, you have an alternative: Remove the combiner and install an antenna A/B switch at the TV. You'll need to run two coax cables, one from each antenna. Manual switches are cheap; remote-controlled switches are available from a few places for $30-$50.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DrPyro* /forum/post/15205885
> 
> 
> I need some help cleaning up my OTA signal. Specifically, I live in Grand Island, NY (Buffalo, NY). My problem is that I live about 1-2 miles from about 1/2 of the transmitters for Buffalo, the other 1/2 are about 30 miles away. I currently use a CM 4221 in the attic and have no problem receiving everything but the local NBC station (WGRZ). This station is notorious for being difficult to receive and I have to add a preamp to receive NBC reliably enough for my HTPC (HDHomeRun) to cleanly record my shows. However, the preamp overloads my TV input so i can't complete a scan. I've attached my tvfool results.
> 
> 
> I need some advice on where to spend my $ to improve the reception and have a few questions....
> 
> 1) NBC(WGRZ 30 miles) and CW (WNLO - 1 mile) are on adjacent channels, is this causing my problem? If so, how to fix it?
> 
> 2) Would a YAGI type antenna help to isolate the two channels that only have 25deg of separation in headings? If so, any recommendations?
> 
> 3) My CM4221 has been damaged due to several moves, I have taped together as best as possible, could this be causing the problems?
> 
> 4) With the antenna mounted in the attic (on wood), do i have to ground the back CM4221 array? If so, how?
> 
> 
> Thanks for all of the help, in advance!
> 
> -DrPyro



1. Ch32 is only 1.2 miles away and will overload not only a Preamp, but also DTV input.

Adjacent Ch33 (and next adjacent Ch34) will be very difficult to receive due to Ch32.

And are ALSO very strong signals.....no need for a Preamp....


The very tough spec for the CECB boxes (NTIA Coupon) allow a STRONG undesired signal

to be no higher than 20 dB above the desired signal and 33 dB for weaker undesired signals.

Your situation is outside the CECB performance capability....and most DTVs are WORSE...


2. You need an antenna that can steer a deep NULL towards Ch32 to help equalize levels.

A 4-Bay, like the CM-4221, isn't very suitable cuz nulls are towards the SIDES:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4221.html 


You need an antenna with deep nulls at about 25-35 degrees, such as CM-4228:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html 

CM-4228 also has a moderate amount of gain for Ch7.


Some yagi's can also do the job...more or less, but are iffy for Ch7:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


3. Duct Tape??? You need good metal to metal conductivity....


4. No, indoor antennas, even in the attic, do not need to be "grounded".


====================================

You may find adding attenuation PRIOR to the Preamp will help, such as a couple of

2-way splitters or a variable RF Attenuator:
http://search.solidsignal.com/?site=...&I1.x=0&I1.y=0 

Even after removing Preamp, it may help to prevent overloading your DTV.


I GUESS the Preamp is helping (a little) due to strong Ch32 signal SATURATING

the input, so that the difference wrt Ch33 is less....but it should be removed.


=====================================

Filters won't work against adjacent channel without seriously degrading desired channel

wrt both attenuation, phase and ENVELOPE DELAY....which affects DTV more than Analog.

There is no such thing as an (affordable) brick wall filter....


----------



## dtloken

Alright, so anyway. Someone gave me a crappy Magnavox CECB for free. I brought it to my mom's house (She has an aerial antenna on a 30ish foot mast, unknown antenna type/make, she believes it was a Channel Master) and was able to aim the antenna at Chicago and receive every major channel from Milwaukee and Chicago other than PBS 10 (Which is VHF).


AFAIK we had:


2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 11, 12, 18, 20, 24, 26, 32, 38, 50, 58 plus a few non-English language channels (And another ION affiliate that I can't remember)


When aimed at Milwaukee I could get channel 10 but not all of the Chicago channels.


I am extremely impressed with that. I brought the box to a friend's house who has a Philips MANT410 indoors.


With this I am able to pull in 11 and 9 from Chicago, 5 and 32 from Chicago were comming in sporadically. I was able to pull in almost every Milwaukee station reliably. Count me as being extremely impressed here since at this location we are about 55-60 miles from the Chicago transmitters and 30 from the Milwaukee ones. I am going to order a DB4 and see how it performs from this location given how well the cheap Philips is working.


----------



## DrPyro

Holl_ands-


WOW, thanks a TON your post was very helpful. I have been reading a ton to figure these things out, but I'm slowly starting to understand. I'm looking for appropriately directional antenna now. Having played with some lasers/filters, some of the notch filters are very very narrow band, so i was hoping i could get something like that for the TV channels. Oh well...thanks again...


-DrPyro


----------



## medoug

I need to purchase a new antenna for the house I'm renting. I'd like to get an outdoor antenna for improved reception and place it in one of my spare bedrooms that I am not using. The bedroom is fairly large (about 14'x14') so I should be able to go up to about a 84" turning radius with my rotor.


I live in a fringe area with the closest broadcasting towers about 50 to 70 miles away. I have determined that I will only need digital channels starting at Ch. 7 and up after the transition in February. Currently Ch. 7 is one of the most difficult for me to receive so I need a good antenna that can receive at least VHF-Hi and UHF. I also have a pre-amp on my current crappy antenna.


I have considered the Channelmaster 4228 or 4228HD, but I understand that it is primarily a UHF antenna that happens to work fairly well for VHF-Hi. My concern with this antenna is that it may not have the range I need for Ch.7 and Ch.9 since I am so far from the transmitting towers. According to the literature, the CM 4228HD has a range of 60miles for UHF and 45miles for VHF-Hi.


I notice that for about the same money, I can purchase the VERY large Channelmaster 3020 which is a full VHF/UHF antenna. The literature says that this antenna has a range of 60miles for UHF and 100miles for VHF which should be sufficient to receive all of the channels needed when using my pre-amp. The only problem with using the CM3020 is that it has a turning radius of 95" which would be a bit too large to fit and rotate in my room.


Since I have been told that the longest members of a VHF antenna are specifically for the VHF-Lo channels, *I was wondering if it would be possible to purchase the CM3020 deep fringe antenna and remove some of the longer members to reduce its size to fit my room without losing the VHF-Hi and UHF capabilities that I need?*


I am hoping that someone who understands antenna construction better than I can answer this question.

Thanks,

medoug.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15209483
> 
> 
> 2. You need an antenna that can steer a deep NULL towards Ch32 to help equalize levels.



FWIW, here's a recent null test I conducted with a local analog station.
http://www.wtfda.info/showthread.php?t=2655 


With DrPyro only 1.2 miles away from ch. 32, I'm not sure any antenna array could effectively null that signal, but it's worth a try. I live 3 miles away from the tower of another local analog LP on ch. 50, and by using the stacked array, I was able to decode WBXX-DT 50, Crossville, TN (@ 282 miles) during a time of some tropospheric ducting/enhancement.


Sometimes while DXing DTV, moving the stacked antennas just 2-3 degrees will determine whether I'm receiving DTV station 1 or DTV station 2, or whether I'm receiving DTV 1 or DTV 2 and/or an analog station on the same channel. Sometimes receiving a DTV station is more about nulling interference (co-channel, adjacent channel, multipath, etc.) than it is getting the strongest signal.


And here's another example for DrPyro in Buffalo, NY. I doubt I would have been able to decode these two Buffalo DTVs (WKBW-DT 38 & WIVB-DT 39 @ 431 miles) in my very high RF location (3-5 miles from the Indy antenna farm) without the nulling ability of the stacked antennas.


Steve


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Since I have been told that the longest members of a VHF antenna are specifically for the VHF-Lo channels, I was wondering if it would be possible to purchase the CM3020 deep fringe antenna and remove some of the longer members to reduce its size to fit my room without losing the VHF-Hi and UHF capabilities that I need?



Having a large deep fringe antenna inside is not a good idea at all. The losses and multipath issues are huge. With renting a house rather than a condo or apt, you should be able to mount it outside. Ask the landlord.


Cutting the elements off a LPDA antenna, even the vhf-low ones is also not a good idea. The long elements do act as reflectors for vhf-hi to some exent and the antenna SWR is designed with those elements at their present size. Without computer modeling, its a wild guess as to what and how much to cut. You should save some money by buying a vhf-hi/uhf combo or separate antennas instead. If you have to mount indoors, I wouldnt be suprised that a smaller cheaper vhf-hi/uhf combo (or the CM4228) would out perform the CM3020 indoors.


----------



## iowegian3

the big question is: Why are they still selling these humongo monsters, when 95% of the U.S. won't have any V-Lo's? Mfgr's should melt down their existing inventory and start over...make V-Lo only antennas for the few areas that need them (assuming V-Lo will really work?)


----------



## medoug




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15224763
> 
> 
> If you have to mount indoors, I wouldnt be suprised that a smaller cheaper vhf-hi/uhf combo (or the CM4228) would out perform the CM3020 indoors.



O.K., I understand now that the CM3020 may not be the best solution for my situation. Part of the reason I was considering it was that I plan on purchasing a house within the next year at which time I would mount it on the roof or a tower.


I'd be quite receptive to buying a good vhf-hi/uhf combo instead of a monster vhf/uhf antenna, but unfortunately I haven't found anything in that category that can assure me of receiving all the digital channels I expect in my fringe area.







(Channelmaster doesn't seem to be offering anything that gets me in the 60+ mile range for BOTH uhf and vhf-hi, and other brands don't seem to rate by milage.) Can anyone make a recommendation for such an antenna, perhaps from another brand? I'd like to stay under $100 if possible.


medoug.


P.S. I just verified on TVfool that I am 58-75miles from the towers I expect to receive digital broadcasts from.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *iowegian3* /forum/post/15228444
> 
> 
> the big question is: Why are they still selling these humongo monsters, when 95% of the U.S. won't have any V-Lo's? Mfgr's should melt down their existing inventory and start over...make V-Lo only antennas for the few areas that need them (assuming V-Lo will really work?)



I suppose so that people can still watch the LP stations on 2-6. We have one locally, which can barely be called a station, so I won't count that.


I have no idea while the Low-VHF monsters continue to be sold in the Southern California area. Ok, analog XETV will continue on 6 for those that want to bother with it.


I tried talking someone out of getting one such monster, but he couldn't believe that we weren't going to be using 2-6 locally for DTV.


Some want FM capabilities, but there are newer antennas that are not nearly as wide which can handle FM (such as the new CM Advantage line).


Maybe the real reason is to scare people away from upgrading their antennas. Since the FCC/government did not remove 2-6, the perception that outdoor antennas have to be the size of small boats will continue.


I see many "boats" on my drives locally and most of them are in very strong signal areas.


----------



## iowegian3

for MeDoug, you may want to consider separate high-band VHF and UHF antennas if you have the room in the attic. A ten element high band VHf ant. will have shorter boom length than the old all channel 2-69 models. Plus if memory serves me right, you should be able to buy separate hi-V and U antennas for less than what Winegard charges for one of their hotter hi-V/U combos such as the HD 7698 P. Although if it's going to eventually end up outside, Winegards have historically held up well, though others may want to chime in on this as far as recent years are concerned.

More on hi V - U ant discussion from 6 months ago click here 


Now, if you want to see some really old monsters...

Relics in Aluminum of Cañon City CO


----------



## stampeder

For people in a Canadian border area you'll have the VHF-LO stations from up north for a few more years too. Out here on the west coast there are lots of Washington State residents hanging on to their big old VHF antennas for that reason to get the Vancouver and Victoria stations.


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15224763
> 
> 
> Having a large deep fringe antenna inside is not a good idea at all. The losses and multipath issues are huge. With renting a house rather than a condo or apt, you should be able to mount it outside. Ask the landlord.



Federal law says you dont have to ask the landlord, remember?? As long as it is in an area of your "control" and not in a common area, it can be done even at an apt, etc...I did it for 3 years at an apt in N Dallas. Sat Dish and outside OTA antenna...


----------



## SOFA.KING

I'm an old time TV/FM DXer from my old home in upstate NY back in the 70's. I am also a ham and have done just about every type of propagation mode from LF to microwave. So this is not new to me, but I have the bug to TV DX again due to the digital age and also because station ID is positive with a digital lock. Back in the day I had *the king of VHF antennas...the Jerrold VIP-307* , and it was a monster! I forget what I used on UHF. I think it was an old RS yagi. Not bad, just not exotic. UHF was not what I was after back then. I was pulling stations fairly well at 100+ miles away (NYC) on a regular daily basis, and that was over a mountain range in lower Dutchess County and Putnam County. DX to Boston and Phili was fairly common. Also DC on occasion, and E-SKIP on low band was wild and crazy! I even pulled in Cali on CH. 2 F-SKIP during the solar peak. The preamp was also a Jerrold (forget the number). Analog DX was fun, but noisy. I know Digital will fail with high interference and noise, but a clear burst of signal that locks gives positive ID, so it sounds fun to get into TV DX again.


I got that bug again! It started when I built a new PC with an ATI HD Wonder card. The little antenna that came with it mounted in the attic was very good and pulled in a huge number of stations (now in SE FL) during tropo openings. I tried a Crapshack V/U antenna that did very badly in the attic (junk). I did a little homework and decided on a Delhi (not near the quality construction the old Jerrold had) *VU-933SR*. Why not a higher gain VU model? Well I liked the polar pattern better. I beam south to three different TX tower locations and the 933 pattern would be better to cover all of them. The gain is still good and I can add the VU-8PZ if I want a little sharper UHF performance.


Now I am getting ready to order all of the stuff I need to complete the system. I'm trying to decide on a preamp and could use some help. If anyone has some input on my system idea I would welcome the comments. Here is what I'm planning so far:


- Delhi VU-933SR

- Channel Master 9521A rotator (any good? anything better?)

- Winegard AP-8700 (or maybe an AP-8780)

- RG6QS all the way on less than 100' runs (have hardline but that is total overkill)

- 2 GHz 4-way splitter with -7.5 dB loss per tap (will bypass for times of DX)

- DTVpal DVR (as a main receiver...might try others eventually)


My link budget with the AP-8700 through the 4-way splitter comes out to: VHF-L +5dB, VHF-H +4dB, UHF +3 dB (or UHF +12 dB with the AP-8780). Preamp noise is calculated into these numbers. Without the splitter everything goes up 7.5 dB. I wonder if the extra gain on UHF using the AP-8780 (V +17 / U +28) would be a problem with overload. The nearest UHF station is 15 miles away, but I never point at it as the regular weaker stations I need to get are 34 degrees off of that. I wish the AP-8700 had just a little more UHF gain, but it might be enough. The max signal into the AP-8780 UHF input is rated at 30,000 uV. The AP-8700 is rated at 93,000 uV. *What is the better choice here?*


The antenna has gain of +6 dB VHF-L, +10 dB VHF-H, and +9 dB UHF. Not a real DX king, but I expect to get plenty during band openings. Oh...and due to lightning risk here on the Florida coast, I will keep the antenna just above roof level. Any suggestions?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> for MeDoug, you may want to consider separate high-band VHF and UHF antennas if you have the room in the attic.



Yep.


And a good way to combine the uhf and vhf antennas is with the CM0264 preamp. 2 separate 300 ohm inputs, (one for uhf, one for vhf) and one simple 75 ohm output.


At your distances, you dont have to worry about the overload problems.


----------



## SOFA.KING

Rick,


Hey thanks for all the advice. Now you have me thinking of a few things. I was thinking about the CM7777. I thought the Winegard AP series was preferred, but I'll take your advice and get the CM instead. I wish they listed the overload specs, but a good experienced user suggestion is enough for me.


I already have the VU-933. The initial idea in getting this antenna was to cover three tower locations with one rotor setting for my locals (all at 180 deg). As it is, I get all the local UHF stations (up to 50 miles) with a little UHF antenna in the attic. During tropo I can get Miami stuff over 100 miles. I would not expect to watch Miami stations every day. That would take some major antenna height. West Palm is no problem.


I already have the RG6QS. Next time I buy some I'll try the tri-shield.


So this may not be the big DX setup I once had, but it should be fun enough. I get a huge amount of stations on tropo openings. Even up past Orlando and Daytona.


One more question. Is anyone doing digital on VHF Low Band. I LOVE low band! I hope it stays around. Knowing the FCC they would give it away to cordless telephones or something stupid like that.


Phil


----------



## SOFA.KING




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15234019
> 
> 
> Yep.
> 
> 
> And a good way to combine the uhf and vhf antennas is with the CM0264 preamp. 2 separate 300 ohm inputs, (one for uhf, one for vhf) and one simple 75 ohm output.
> 
> 
> At your distances, you dont have to worry about the overload problems.



Thanks for the input. No overload. Cool!


Maybe if I get serious I will go with the dedicated band antennas. This is a start.


Phil


----------



## jbsmith_05

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone had tried to use two db4's to pick up thier digital signals. The reason I ask is that I have about a 60 - 65 degree spread in the towers I am trying to recieve (according to tvfool and antennaweb).


I was thinking that I could direct one db4 facing the center of one half of the spread (toward the right 30 degrees) and then another facing the other 30 degrees. I would keep the antennas physcally distant by a few feet or so (thinking that they may interfeer with each other.


Then use a combiner to run the coax back to the TV.


Any thoughts on this.


By the way I can pick up all my major networks with some old 1990's rabbit ears with a round disk in between them (says optima on it). Buy my signal strength on the weaker channels is around 30% or so - the others upwards of 70%. I am thinking that just a better antenna such as the db4 would give me vast improvments.


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jbsmith_05* /forum/post/15235077
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I was wondering if anyone had tried to use two db4's to pick up thier digital signals. The reason I ask is that I have about a 60 - 65 degree spread in the towers I am trying to recieve (according to tvfool and antennaweb).
> 
> 
> I was thinking that I could direct one db4 facing the center of one half of the spread (toward the right 30 degrees) and then another facing the other 30 degrees. I would keep the antennas physcally distant by a few feet or so (thinking that they may interfeer with each other.
> 
> 
> Then use a combiner to run the coax back to the TV.
> 
> 
> Any thoughts on this.
> 
> 
> By the way I can pick up all my major networks with some old 1990's rabbit ears with a round disk in between them (says optima on it). Buy my signal strength on the weaker channels is around 30% or so - the others upwards of 70%. I am thinking that just a better antenna such as the db4 would give me vast improvments.



Can you post your TVfool results? I am thinking that one DB4, should be enough, but I need to see the site stats first....


----------



## jbsmith_05




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* /forum/post/15235257
> 
> 
> Can you post your TVfool results? I am thinking that one DB4, should be enough, but I need to see the site stats first....



Here is the tvfool.com results. I am planning on putting it in the attic - considering I can receive pretty good with rabbit ears.


----------



## jbsmith_05




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jbsmith_05* /forum/post/15235389
> 
> 
> Here is the tvfool.com results. I am planning on putting it in the attic - considering I can receive pretty good with rabbit ears.



FYI...the channel I primarly have issues with currently is the cbs station - 3.1. I can get it but the signal strength is down around 20% and sometimes to get it I have to give up two of the other major networks HD channels.


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jbsmith_05* /forum/post/15235389
> 
> 
> Here is the tvfool.com results. I am planning on putting it in the attic - considering I can receive pretty good with rabbit ears.



If at all possible, I would try for a roof install, attic installs are tricky and you loose 50%+ of signal right off the top.... The DB4 can be mounted on a sat dish mount and is not much taller then a normal dish......



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jbsmith_05* /forum/post/15235419
> 
> 
> FYI...the channel I primarly have issues with currently is the cbs station - 3.1. I can get it but the signal strength is down around 20% and sometimes to get it I have to give up two of the other major networks HD channels.



Ok, my thought is go with one DB4 (I think with 2 aiming in different directions, you could end up with bad multipath) and a Winegard HDP 269.. (this amp is lower on gain, and I have read here on AVS, that it does not overload easily, but you could also try a CM 7777, but I wonder if the stations at 18miles may overload it) Now I would try with the screen on the antenna, but if some of the off-axis give issues, you could try with the screen as well... I would aim at 200 degrees and fine tune from there.. (or if you take the screen off aim for 180 degrees and go from there)


BTW, I never did ask which of the stations and markets are you all trying to grab here? You are in a great spot to get a pile of channels!


----------



## jbsmith_05




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* /forum/post/15236820
> 
> 
> If at all possible, I would try for a roof install, attic installs are tricky and you loose 50%+ of signal right off the top....



I know this but I assumed that since my rabbit ears sitting right next to the TV can pick up the channels then I shouldn't have a problem. Is this not accurate?





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* /forum/post/15236820
> 
> 
> Ok, my thought is go with one DB4 (I think with 2 aiming in different directions, you could end up with bad multipath) and a Winegard HDP 269.. (this amp is lower on gain, and I have read here on AVS, that it does not overload easily, but you could also try a CM 7777, but I wonder if the stations at 18miles may overload it)



So you are saying to use two antennas - just not two DB4's? due to the mulitpath issue?[/quote]




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* /forum/post/15236820
> 
> 
> BTW, I never did ask which of the stations and markets are you all trying to grab here? You are in a great spot to get a pile of channels!



Just trying to get the channels South/SouthEast - in the Green and Yellow - maybe some of the Red if i really get into this antenna thing! (just cancelled satellite after realizing HD is free and I get good reception). But I have never recieved any of the red - analog that is.


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jbsmith_05* /forum/post/15237124
> 
> 
> I know this but I assumed that since my rabbit ears sitting right next to the TV can pick up the channels then I shouldn't have a problem. Is this not accurate?



It could work very well, but if you go on the roof, many of the other stations might just come in, you may get multi markets with ease... 1-2Edge at 50miles in Red is not that hard to get, with the amp, you very well could be very surprised... You said that you had satellite, well you could use the mounting from the dish for the antenna, if it is in a good spot, and even re-use the cable from the dish....




> Quote:
> So you are saying to use two antennas - just not two DB4's? due to the mulitpath issue?



I would go with just 1 DB4 for the start, down the road you may want to add a VHF-HI antenna as well...




> Quote:
> Just trying to get the channels South/SouthEast - in the Green and Yellow - maybe some of the Red if i really get into this antenna thing! (just cancelled satellite after realizing HD is free and I get good reception). But I have never recieved any of the red - analog that is.



That was what I figured, also this was pre-transition, correct?


You location is really good, I would love to be able to go after as many markets as you have close with the ease that awaits you!!!


----------



## jbsmith_05




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* /forum/post/15237428
> 
> 
> 
> That was what I figured, also this was pre-transition, correct?
> 
> 
> You location is really good, I would love to be able to go after as many markets as you have close with the ease that awaits you!!!




It is post-transition - I compared current to post and nothing changed. one PBS station jumped but I hardly ever watch PBS so I didn't care about that. Plus the transition is only 2 months away.


The satellite is only about 6 ft AGL on the corner of the house...I believe my neighbor's house would block the DB4 if I put it there. I assume that the sat is angled up much more than the DB4 would be. I take it Directv never comes to get thier dishes? Your thoughts on mounting it here?


My location is pretty much in the center of a triangle of fairly large cities.


----------



## Brucemck2

I need a rooftop antenna to receive VHF 8, 9, and 11 plus UHF 14 through 41. Receivers are older Hughes HR10-250 D* units with OTA feed that augments the D* signal.


All stations are pretty close directionally (only vary a few degrees) and are around 40 miles away.


Antenna is two feet off of a second story roof and can't be raised significantly without violating homeowners restrictions. I can point directly at the stations, but it is not a direct line of sight (adjacent rooftops 30 feet away are approximately two feet higher, so don't get perfect line of sight) but not horrendous obstructions either.


Currently use a Winegard square shooter, which works fine (but not amazing) for the UHF stations and miserably for the VHF stations.


Suggestions?


Thanks.


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jbsmith_05* /forum/post/15237781
> 
> 
> It is post-transition - I compared current to post and nothing changed. one PBS station jumped but I hardly ever watch PBS so I didn't care about that. Plus the transition is only 2 months away.



Ok, good, any changes that are coming will not be an issue...



> Quote:
> The satellite is only about 6 ft AGL on the corner of the house...I believe my neighbor's house would block the DB4 if I put it there. I assume that the sat is angled up much more than the DB4 would be. I take it Directv never comes to get thier dishes? Your thoughts on mounting it here?



Usually, they want the boxes back, but leave the dishes, and the wire they have installed (which is usually quad shield RG6) You could cheat and use their wire to get outside and just run it up to the peak, so you would not have to snake wire through the walls....

That is a bad location for it, the biggest thing I worry about with atitic installs, is what is the roof made of, do the walls have an vapor barrier, and that kind of thing, it sucks working outside in the winter, but on the flip side, at my grandma's house, will one uhf antenna pointed at 60 degrees at 10miles (one set of towers, another station at 300degrees at 22miles, and a strong station to 180degrees at 6miles), they come in easy on the roof, whereas with indoor antenna, the station to the back of tower at 180 was breaking up, and the station at 22miles was not reliable.. A small non-high-gain antenna made the reception perfect... Don't take as I am trying to tell you what to do, just bare in mind, that a roof install is my strong recommendation... (outside, without a huge loss, you can get away with antennas pointed the wrong with LOS, or close in and very strong, so that is where I coming from....


> Quote:
> My location is pretty much in the center of a triangle of fairly large cities.



Ya, it is great, I am little to the South of being between three DMAs, but still working to grab all of them. I just poured the footing for a 40ft tower, and I am aiming to grab UHF/VHF-HI at 78.2miles from the Twin Cities here in MN, also looking to grab the Southern WI stations at 56miles... Every foot higher, can make a huge difference on the amount of signal that makes it around hills and trees and what not!


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Brucemck2* /forum/post/15237879
> 
> 
> I need a rooftop antenna to receive VHF 8, 9, and 11 plus UHF 14 through 41. Receivers are older Hughes HR10-250 D* units with OTA feed that augments the D* signal.
> 
> 
> All stations are pretty close directionally (only vary a few degrees) and are around 40 miles away.
> 
> 
> Antenna is two feet off of a second story roof and can't be raised significantly without violating homeowners restrictions. I can point directly at the stations, but it is not a direct line of sight (adjacent rooftops 30 feet away are approximately two feet higher, so don't get perfect line of sight) but not horrendous obstructions either.
> 
> 
> Currently use a Winegard square shooter, which works fine (but not amazing) for the UHF stations and miserably for the VHF stations.
> 
> 
> Suggestions?
> 
> 
> Thanks.



My thought, without seeing your tvfool, is to go about with close advise to what I gave jbsmith_05 up a little higher...


> Quote:
> Ok, my thought is go with one DB4 (I think with 2 aiming in different directions, you could end up with bad multipath) and a Winegard HDP 269.. (this amp is lower on gain, and I have read here on AVS, that it does not overload easily, but you could also try a CM 7777.



In your case, as long as their are no high power radio stations within a few miles, I would go with the Channel Master CM2016, and a CM7777, the DB4's VHF gain at 40miles would prolly not be reliable without LOS....


----------



## SOFA.KING

OK, now I think I have a system design that will work for my locals and then some. I guess my DX will be mostly tropo, but here in Florida I expect to get plenty of that. The system is modest, and the antenna polar pattern is a little wide by design. This is so I can park the antenna at 180 degrees and get all my regular locals to the south (which I now get with a small antenna in the attic). I chose the Jerrold/Delhi/Wade VU-933SR for one reason; It has a slightly wider polar pattern to cover three tower locations to my south and enough gain to get the job done. I will be at 30' above ground (on the east coast...pretty flat). The rotor will be a CM9521A.


The big choice to make was on the preamp. After looking at Winegard and Channel Master "all-in-one" options, and listening to some advice here, I think the CM7778 is the perfect choice for this installation. Overload is not going to help, so the CM7777 is a bit too much (see calculations below). I will be splitting the signal into four rooms. I calculate no more than 100' total runs of RG6QS which I ran before the house construction was completed. Here is a breakdown of gains and losses on each band:


DEVICE LOW HI UHF

-------------------------------

VU-933 +6 +10 +9

CM7778 +16 +16 +23

- NOISE -3 -3 -2

LOSSES -9 -10 -13

CABLE &

SPLIT


LINK BUDG +4 +3 +8 (This is what is left of the preamp gain after accounting for all of the cable and splitter losses.)


TOTAL W/

ANTENNA +10 +13 +17 (This is the total signal gain you get over a dipole at each of the four receiver locations.)


That is not bad for a modest system. The balance is perfect when considering how each band propagates (low freqs travel further than hi freqs). I can remove the 4-way splitter for times when I DX, but that recovers preamp gain and not antenna gain. There is no making up for a good receiver and antenna gain. I think this is a well balanced system for an average home in a suburban to rural situation. The antenna has modest gain and is a little forgiving in directional characteristics. The rotor will allow me to have some DX fun. I doubt there will be any overload related problems. This system should work well. What do yall think?


----------



## Trek7300




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SOFA.KING* /forum/post/15234364
> 
> 
> One more question. Is anyone doing digital on VHF Low Band. I LOVE low band! I hope it stays around. Knowing the FCC they would give it away to cordless telephones or something stupid like that.
> 
> Phil



I live about 30 miles SE from Nashville. Channel 5 in Nashville is going back to Channel 5 after the transition. I also read on a thread here on avs that there is a station in Southern AL, Northern FL that is on channel 2 and is going to go back to channel 2 after the transition.


Robert


----------



## Nitewatchman

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-channel_interference 


Note: The usage of "Adverse weather", as well as omission of UHF(or higher) frequencies being effected by enhanced propagation via tropospheric scattering or ducting in that portion of article are inaccurate.


----------



## holl_ands

*SOFA.KING:*

Preventing Preamp "Overload" really means maximizing the Spurious Free Dynamic Range (SFDR),

so you can receive the weakest signals possible without intermods wiping it out.

Start with www.tvfool.com and www.fmfool.com to see what you're really up against.

You might be surprised to find stations you weren't aware of...


Calculations for various Preamps were posted on 4Nov:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=8148


----------



## The Hound

WRGB Albany NY, will go back to channel 6 after transition.


----------



## Brucemck2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* /forum/post/15237921
> 
> 
> My thought, without seeing your tvfool, is to go about with close advise to what I gave jbsmith_05 up a little higher...


 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d%3d55368ee36c


----------



## SOFA.KING




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15243305
> 
> *SOFA.KING:*
> 
> Preventing Preamp "Overload" really means maximizing the Spurious Free Dynamic Range (SFDR),
> 
> so you can receive the weakest signals possible without intermods wiping it out.
> 
> Start with www.tvfool.com and www.fmfool.com to see what you're really up against.
> 
> You might be surprised to find stations you weren't aware of...
> 
> 
> Calculations for various Preamps were posted on 4Nov:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=8148




Thanks...and I know what you are saying is true. I have checked those "fool" sites. Very nice resource! I'm good to go!


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Brucemck2* /forum/post/15243481
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d%3d55368ee36c



Emm, not bad, I would go with an amp for sure, the antenna is the interesting one, I think the before mentioned Channel Master with a 7777 amp will prolly get the job done....


----------



## iowegian3

(Sorry for the simulcast, but wasn't getting much response in HDTV Technical)


This may be quasi-legal for channels 51 and below and will soon be DEFINITELY illegal for 52-69 come 2/17, but I'd like to add an A/B switch on my second set, with one side going to the second set, and the other to an antenna. Said antenna would then broadcast the ol-fashun analog signal from our Dish two-tuner receiver about 30 feet to another set on the back deck, which then of course would have the UHF remote to tune the 2nd Dish tuner.


How many milliwatts are present at the 2nd set RF output would be the big question. So, is there enough signal to at least use small directional UHF antennas at each end in case of an itty bitty 1 milliwatt signal? Or in the case of 10 or 20 mW signal...how would I attenuate signal to a point where I'd cease to be a neighborhood broadcaster? Also how resistant is the Dish RF modulator to VSWR mismatches?


----------



## SOFA.KING




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Trek7300* /forum/post/15241949
> 
> 
> I live about 30 miles SE from Nashville. Channel 5 in Nashville is going back to Channel 5 after the transition. I also read on a thread here on avs that there is a station in Southern AL, Northern FL that is on channel 2 and is going to go back to channel 2 after the transition.
> 
> 
> Robert



That is good to hear. Thanks!


----------



## SOFA.KING




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *The Hound* /forum/post/15243447
> 
> 
> WRGB Albany NY, will go back to channel 6 after transition.



I used to watch that channel where I grew up (Clinton Corners). It was the strongest channel we received. Glad to hear it is staying.


Long live low band!


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *iowegian3* /forum/post/15248756
> 
> 
> (Sorry for the simulcast, but wasn't getting much response in HDTV Technical)
> 
> 
> This may be quasi-legal for channels 51 and below and will soon be DEFINITELY illegal for 52-69 come 2/17, but I'd like to add an A/B switch on my second set, with one side going to the second set, and the other to an antenna. Said antenna would then broadcast the ol-fashun analog signal from our Dish two-tuner receiver about 30 feet to another set on the back deck, which then of course would have the UHF remote to tune the 2nd Dish tuner.
> 
> 
> How many milliwatts are present at the 2nd set RF output would be the big question. So, is there enough signal to at least use small directional UHF antennas at each end in case of an itty bitty 1 milliwatt signal? Or in the case of 10 or 20 mW signal...how would I attenuate signal to a point where I'd cease to be a neighborhood broadcaster? Also how resistant is the Dish RF modulator to VSWR mismatches?



Yes, it's ILLEGAL...and costly if you get caught.

The cable companies (and the FCC) patrol neighborhoods from time to time

to make sure cable signals aren't leaking to disrupt avionic (and other) communications.


A milliwatt of power would overload many TVs.... Typical receive signal levels

are microwatts....down to nanowatts....


You'll probably need an RF amp, which is ALSO going to amplify all of

the broadband NOISE coming out of the Dish UHF output, causing problems

for your neighbors trying to receive OTA channels....


=====================================

What you CAN do is to connect the Dish L/R/Video outputs to a wireless video extender:
http://www.google.com/products?q=wir...nder&scoring=p


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Trek7300* /forum/post/15241949
> 
> 
> I also read on a thread here on avs that there is a station in Southern AL, Northern FL that is on channel 2 and is going to go back to channel 2 after the transition.



Which station are you thinking of here? The current plan has only 1 DTV station on the East Coast on 2 (WLBZ in Maine). If you are thinking of WTWC, it is returning to 40.


----------



## SOFA.KING




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/15251333
> 
> 
> Which station are you thinking of here? The current plan has only 1 DTV station on the East Coast on 2 (WLBZ in Maine). If you are thinking of WTWC, it is returning to 40.




I was looking for that info too. It would be cool if they were going to channel 2 though. I noticed a trend of some stations leaving UHF and going to VHF for the first time. In this case "the grass IS greener". If I were looking for an open VHF channel for my station, I would pick channel 6. There are very few of them around the country and it would be a huge range boost.


Long live LOW BAND!


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SOFA.KING* /forum/post/15252247
> 
> 
> I was looking for that info too. It would be cool if they were going to channel 2 though. I noticed a trend of some stations leaving UHF and going to VHF for the first time. In this case "the grass IS greener". If I were looking for an open VHF channel for my station, I would pick channel 6. There are very few of them around the country and it would be a huge range boost.
> 
> 
> Long live LOW BAND!



Wouldn't that just be asking for trouble for everyone with an FM filter?


----------



## dtloken

I just won a Motorola BDA-S1 amplifier on eBay. Any comments on it?

http://www.signalboosterstore.com/Pr...rolaBDA-S1.htm


----------



## holl_ands

There is a proposal at FCC to expand FM band into Ch6 and possibly also Ch5.....


Indoor antennas for Lo-VHF are very low gain....and outdoor antennas are HUGE!!!!


AND Ch6 is trouble for anyone located near an FM transmitter...they're everywhere, they're everywhere....


PS: You can check for FM adjacent channel interference to Ch6 at www.fmfool.com ,

and/or download an FM transmitter location icon file (*.kmz for GoogleEarth display).


----------



## stampeder

That's being discussed up here in Canada too. The idea would be to have a 30MHz FM band as opposed to today's 20MHz band. Speculation is that the new 10MHz portion at the low end would have a purely IBOC (Hybrid Digital) only set of frequencies. Its all just talk at this point, as far as I've heard.


Agreed about the antenna size!


----------



## SOFA.KING

Indoor UHF antennas are also low gain. Who uses indoor antennas anyway? that never worked good and never will work good. OTA on an indoor antenna is [email protected]$$ed at best.


More FM broadcast (now with "HD") in place of channel 5 & 6? Bad idea. Maybe channels 2, 3, and 4, but with the FCC selling off channels 52 - 69 and the land mobile intrusion on channels 14 - 20, not to mention channel 37 being off limits, what the hell is left? I mean COME ON! Does anyone at the FCC have a clue?


The last thing that needs to happen is doing away with more channels for TV. And low band tv antennas are not "huge". A 100" dipole for channel 2 (the longest) is nothing. Pfffft!


----------



## SOFA.KING




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/15252939
> 
> 
> Wouldn't that just be asking for trouble for everyone with an FM filter?



No...maybe more trouble for people without filters. So get a good filter. No big deal. Just do it.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SOFA.KING* /forum/post/15257909
> 
> 
> Who uses indoor antennas anyway? that never worked good and never will work good. OTA on an indoor antenna is [email protected]$$ed at best.



That's a rather snobish attitude don't you think. Many people who live in apartments or condos don't have much choice. Of course one could fight with the landlord or HOA for the right to install an outdoor antenna, but for most people, that's just too much trouble.


For the past 20 years or so, I paid for cable TV service because analog TV reception via an indoor antenna sucked due to severe ghosting. However, digital TV reception via an indoor antenna has been awesome for nearly a year now. Call it what you want, but at least I don't have to pay for cable anymore.


----------



## jbsmith_05

Hello,

I have read that many people have built thier own db4 antenna out of a 2x4, some copper wire, balun, and some oven racks.


couple questions:


1) has anyone built their own and then also purchased one? If so would like to know if there is any discernable differance in signal strenght and/or picture quality


2) I was thinking of building one first - since I have everything laying around the house already, but my question is what should the distance between the 'racks' and the rods (v's) be? I assume 4 in?


----------



## SOFA.KING




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/15258745
> 
> 
> That's a rather snobish attitude don't you think. Many people who live in apartments or condos don't have much choice. Of course one could fight with the landlord or HOA for the right to install an outdoor antenna, but for most people, that's just too much trouble.
> 
> 
> For the past 20 years or so, I paid for cable TV service because analog TV reception via an indoor antenna sucked due to severe ghosting. However, digital TV reception via an indoor antenna has been awesome for nearly a year now. Call it what you want, but at least I don't have to pay for cable anymore.



No, I don't "think".


I lived in appartments for 14 years and managed to get an antenna up for TV and ham radio in every case. Some landlords could be reasoned with, some not. In one case I had access to the crawl space and put antennas in the attic. In another I threw magnet wire out the window into the trees and grounded my feedline to the water pipes. That made a very good ham antenna (better than other outdoor antennas I had up in the clear). In other cases I made quad loops for tv and taped them to the window. I got good reception. I put dipoles in the trees next to my window. And many other experiments that worked. I have tried it all and had no problems in many different appartments. I have always managed to "make it work" and rabbit ears were not part of a good solution.


Where there is a will, there is a way. You just need to make a little effort.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> AND Ch6 is trouble for anyone located near an FM transmitter...they're everywhere, they're everywhere....



Heh, tell me about it.







Plus VHF-Low is noisy, easily picking up all sorts of interference. I would have rather seen them leave us with channels 7 - 57, and set up DTS repeater transmitters all over the place.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> 2) I was thinking of building one first - since I have everything laying around the house already, but my question is what should the distance between the 'racks' and the rods (v's) be? I assume 4 in?



Yeah, 4 to 5 1/2 inches is the general range, with 4 1/2 inches being the sweet spot for most.


----------



## TWinbrook46636




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SOFA.KING* /forum/post/15257909
> 
> 
> More FM broadcast (now with "HD") in place of channel 5 & 6? Bad idea. Maybe channels 2, 3, and 4, but with the FCC selling off channels 52 - 69 and the land mobile intrusion on channels 14 - 20, not to mention channel 37 being off limits, what the hell is left? I mean COME ON! Does anyone at the FCC have a clue?



Land Mobile intrusion on channels 14 - 20? Expanding the FM band? Is there a chart available anywhere that shows what frequencies are used for what?


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15255255
> 
> 
> AND Ch6 is trouble for anyone located near an FM transmitter...they're everywhere, they're everywhere....



Oh my.....is that a Chicken Man reference?!?


----------



## holl_ands

Braaak, Braa, Braaaaakkkkk


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TWinbrook46636* /forum/post/15259807
> 
> 
> Land Mobile intrusion on channels 14 - 20? Expanding the FM band? Is there a chart available anywhere that shows what frequencies are used for what?



Here's the chart...keep zooming in to see 54-108, 172-216 and 470-700 MHz:
http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/allochrt.pdf 

Note that TV bands are used for not only wireless microphones, but also

medical monitoring equipment (incl on "forbidden" Ch37), Land Mobile

(Police/Fire/Taxi) and possibly some old reporter-to-station links from mobile TV vans.


Perhaps an easier to read chart:
http://www.commandline.net/Radio%20F...y%20Chart1.htm 


BTW: These are SUMMARIES and are NOT all inclusive....

For example, in S.D., Qualcomm used Ch53 to test MediaFlo before moving to Ch55.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SOFA.KING* /forum/post/15257909
> 
> 
> Indoor UHF antennas are also low gain. Who uses indoor antennas anyway? that never worked good and never will work good. OTA on an indoor antenna is [email protected]$$ed at best.



All depends on how far away you are (most people live in cities with strong signals)

and what you can live with (you can't miss what you don't know about)....


Fol. study says about 75% of OTA viewers use indoor antennas:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/19986 

Q: Presumably "indoors" includes attic????


BTW: My son's attic mounted "indoor" CM-4228 picks up all L.A. stations 70+ miles away.

Unfortunately, I'm behind a hill and only get 4 out of 7 stations, even with

"indoor" CM-4228....and no help outdoors either....


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Braaak, Braa, Braaaaakkkkk



I think he means the old 1510 AM (?) WKBW in Buffalo, NY Chicken Man, heh.


----------



## SOFA.KING




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15260326
> 
> 
> All depends on how far away you are (most people live in cities with strong signals)
> 
> and what you can live with (you can't miss what you don't know about)....
> 
> 
> Fol. study says about 75% of OTA viewers use indoor antennas:
> http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/19986
> 
> Q: Presumably "indoors" includes attic????
> 
> 
> BTW: My son's attic mounted "indoor" CM-4228 picks up all L.A. stations 70+ miles away.
> 
> Unfortunately, I'm behind a hill and only get 4 out of 7 stations, even with
> 
> "indoor" CM-4228....and no help outdoors either....



I do not consider attic mounted the same as indoor rabbit ears. Not only are the antennas usually bigger and better but, depending on construction, you are above walls and other obstructions. Take my house for example...I have concrete block outer walls, wires in the walls (and some people have metal framing...not me), and depending where the TV is positioned, a set of rabbit ears might not even face the right direction. My in attic antennas shoot through wood (not too impeding) and get pointed in the right direction. Range is greatly extended. I think this is a good solution for many in my area since all the stations are only up to 50 miles away. Low band channels would do better over those hills and mountains, and in-the-attic antennas would be ok for low band reception if you keep the antenna as far away from electrical wires as you can.


The point here is that set top antennas are the worst. People can't expect to get all the local channels on them (low band or not) unless they live next to all the local transmitters. Complaining about low band rabbit ears is silly. It may be a challenge to do something better, but it is what it is. If they are too lazy to learn and don't want to bother doing something better, they can get cable. And no matter what people expect out of indoor antennas, not everyone will live close enough to the transmitters for it to work. Even if you are close enough to a couple of stations, there are bound to be others just out of reach for such an effortless and lazy set top copout. If you want to do OTA, you had better get a better antenna than some "set top" junk. Low band works better in hilly country, period. So what if an attic or outdoor antenna is a little wider. Big deal!







The advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. Oh...and FM interference can be mitigated with a good FM filter (not Crapshack). It is no big deal.


----------



## Intheswamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jbsmith_05* /forum/post/15259024
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I have read that many people have built thier own db4 antenna out of a 2x4, some copper wire, balun, and some oven racks.
> 
> 
> couple questions:
> 
> 
> 1) has anyone built their own and then also purchased one? If so would like to know if there is any discernable differance in signal strenght and/or picture quality
> 
> 
> 2) I was thinking of building one first - since I have everything laying around the house already, but my question is what should the distance between the 'racks' and the rods (v's) be? I assume 4 in?



If you really want to build your own antenna then I'd recommend you check this link out... Lumenlab's DIY Antenna Thread . There are good designs within it's 63 pages of messages along with lots of experimentation (some good some bad). It should make for a nice read.










Best wishes,

Ed


----------



## stampeder

Actually if you really want to build your own antenna go for the best:

"What is the Gray-Hoverman Antenna?" 


Two interesting articles by Doug Lung on the TV Technology web site, on the Gen 1 Gray-Hoverman antenna.


Doug's first article was based on the GH GPLv3 design information and he provided links to the digitalhome GPLv3 web site.

His second article shows some builds made by some of his readers and the build by Robert Lynch, assistant chief engineer at the Fox affiliate in Roanoke, Va., has a very interesting reflector-screen variation, that others might want to try.


Here are the links:

http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/68436 

http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/68820


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Take my house for example...I have concrete block outer walls, wires in the walls (and some people have metal framing...not me),



And lots of people have foil backed insulation in the walls, like me. It also seems some of the newer shingles have something like ground up steel wool in them. Anything but outdoors is a poor mounting location.


----------



## holl_ands

FM Notch Filters attenuate one station. So you might need more than one....

If nearby station is towards low end of FM band (e.g. at or near 88.1 MHz),

standard notch filter from Tin Lee (et. al.) will ALSO affect Ch6:
http://www.tinlee.com/PDF/VR7-instu-...w-Hi-specs.pdf 


Tin Lee makes higher performance Notch Filters....for a much higher price:
http://www.tinlee.com/FM_Products.php?active=2 
http://www.tinlee.com/Graph_ALL_FM_filters.php 


Note that entire FM Bandstop Filters attenuate Ch6 even more:
http://www.tinlee.com/PDF/CR7%20FM%2040.pdf


----------



## AntAltMike

I think the major cylindrical filter manufacturers, like Eagle, C&E. Microwave Filter and Gamco, stock all the FM values (88.1, 88.3, etc) and I'd expect them to sell for under $20 each. Almost no one ever needs more than one or two, since most FM band reject filters cover 93-108 MHz.


The Winegard FT-7600 is a crappy tunable FM notch filter, and while it only costs about $20, it can't be tuned without a meter, and the notch is not real sharp, so even when precisely tuned, it will nibble into channel 6. The Blonder Tongue MWT-2 dual, tunable notch filter is nice but costs the better part of $200.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15260326
> 
> 
> Fol. study says about 75% of OTA viewers use indoor antennas:
> http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/19986
> 
> Q: Presumably "indoors" includes attic????



It states:



> Quote:
> “75 percent or more of the over-the-air households have only set-top antennas.”



So perhaps, it does not even include attic antennas in the 75%.


I would not include my attic installation in the "half a'd," category. I have 3 antennas (Y5-2-6, YA-1713 and CM4228) for 51 miles w/o LOS, combined with an HLSJ for the VHF side and combined with UHF by way of a 7777. The Y5-2-6 is for "fun" only as I don't need it for DTV. I only need the 4228 at the moment and may not need the YA-1713 for 7-13 since the 4228 does well enough, but I wanted a robust installation.


It is certainly in better condition than 95% of the local outdoor installations I see. The way I look at it, unless an outdoor antenna and equipment is replaced (or at least tuned) on a regular basis, it loses much of its advantages over attic installations. Most local outdoor antennas are pointed the wrong way, which also gives back most of the advantages.


Of course, for houses with stucco or metal siding, it won't work nearly as well to have an indoor antenna, but that describes about 90% of new homes built in SoCal. In my case, stucco is only on the 1st floor and the attic UHF antenna looks through the wood siding of the house and not the roof tiles (which the VHF antennas look through).


Relying on set-top antennas will be a mistake made by many. There was was article in the Washington Post which showed someone wrapping foil around the antenna to try and improve the reception. Here is the article.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...051902730.html 


Effective reception requires better antennas and better located/situated antennas. I think we can agree on those points.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> FM Notch Filters attenuate one station. So you might need more than one....
> 
> If nearby station is towards low end of FM band (e.g. at or near 88.1 MHz),
> 
> standard notch filter from Tin Lee (et. al.) will ALSO affect Ch6:



It will be interesting to see what happens in my situation when channel 6 returns to real channel 6 digital in February. Im fortunate in that the nearby strong FM stations are in the 90 degree null of where I point the antenna to.


----------



## Gandalf007

I'm planning to put up an antenna for my grandfather; see attached for post-transition TVFool data (assuming a 40-ft antenna mast). I want to be able to receive KBTX, plus everything from Houston (southeast direction) down to KHOU at least.


Currently (for analog) he uses an indoor antenna (the Radio Shack "UFO") which gets KBTX great and the Houston channels very weakly. With a converter box, KBTX is the only reliable signal, so obviously a better antenna is needed.


Since we only want to buy one antenna (preferably without needing a rotator), and we're 67 miles from the Houston antenna farm, I am looking at getting the Winegard HD7698P and pointing it towards the southeast. There won't be any low-VHF stations post-transition, but there are three high-VHF stations, so that seems like a good choice.


At 105 degrees apart from the Houston stations, KBTX is in a big null of that antenna, which is probably a good thing, since it's a _much_ stronger signal than everything else. (You can get a decent picture on its analog ch.3 with absolutely nothing connected to the TV's RF jack, and crystal clear with just about any length of wire.) Hopefully it will still come in with the antenna pointed as such.


I'm not sure how strong a preamp to buy, as I want to get a lock on the Houston channels, without having KBTX overload the amp.


----------



## bschulte

Hi guys, I'm brand new to the AVS Forums but I joined mainly due to this thread. I've had cable from about the age of 8 (30 now and a pricey digital cable package to go with it!), but fondly remember the old OTA days at my parents' house. I am getting into OTA myself after purchasing a 50" HDTV and wanting the best picture possible for the local channels. I also want to protect myself after the digital transition if I move to satellite (7 TVs and I'd want at most 4 satellite STBs, leaving three more TVs to cover).


Anyway, on to the meat of the post. I want to dabble in DXing later on if time/money permit, but for now I want to keep it simple. I've attached the TV Fool report for my exact coordinates post-transition while leaving the antenna height blank. Here's what I want:


1) Roof mounted antenna on my single story home.

2) The St. Louis stations located from 255-273 degrees.

3) I'd like to have WSIU Ch. 8.

4) I want to view these on my two main TVs for sure but also if possible on two more tvs. The longest cable run should be 75 feet at most, less for the two main tvs centered in the house on the main floor and the finished basement family room.


After studying this for about a week, I think some type of Channel Master UHF antenna should do the trick and hopefully allow me to pull in WSIU. I'll get WPXS no matter what I do. I know people say to get a little more antenna than I need. If I get a CM4228HD, would I also need/want a CM7777 pre-amp? Is a 4228HD overkill by itself? Not having had real world experience with OTA, I have no practical experience to guide me here. What do you think?


----------



## Trek7300




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/15251333
> 
> 
> Which station are you thinking of here? The current plan has only 1 DTV station on the East Coast on 2 (WLBZ in Maine). If you are thinking of WTWC, it is returning to 40.



I think this is where I read this, but I notice now that this was posted back in 2005, so maybe it is now out of date. It was posted by "Trip in VA" in the "Low-VHF" Thread: (The Dothan AL PBS Station)



With just over 500 stations that will be making elections today, here's the list of low VHF elections so far:


Elected Channel 2:


KTNL-13/2 CBS/PAX Sitka, AK

WDIQ-2/11 PBS Dothan, AL

KNAZ-2/22 NBC Flagstaff, AZ

KREX-5/2 CBS Grand Junction, CO

WCES-20/2 PBS Wrens, GA

WLBZ-2/25 NBC Bangor, ME

WWMT-2/3 CBS Kalamazoo, MI

KNOP-2/22 NBC North Platte, NE

KVBC-3/2 NBC Las Vegas, NV

KOTA-3/2 ABC Rapid City, SD

KUSD-2/34 PBS Vermillion, SD

KBEJ-2 UPN Fredricksburg, TX

KJWY-2/14 NBC Jackson, WY


Elected Channel 3:


KIEM-3/16 NBC Eureka, CA

WDLP-22/3 IND Key West, FL

KYUS-3/13 NBC Miles City, MT

KBJN-3 NBC Ely, NV

KDLO-3/2 CBS Florence, SD

WBRA-15/3 PBS Roanoke, VA


Elected Channel 4:


KJNP-4/20 Rel. North Pole, AK

WHBF-4/58 CBS Rock Island, IL

WDKY-56/4 FOX Danville, KY

WSKY-4 Ind. Manteo, NC

WOAY-4/50 ABC Oak Hill, WV


Elected Channel 5:


KYES-5/6 UPN Anchorage, AK

WABW-14/5 PBS Pelham, GA

KGTF-12/5 PBS Agana, GU

WOI-5/59 ABC Des Moines, IA

WBKP-5/11 ABC Calumet, MI

WGVK-52/5 PBS Kalamazoo, MI

KXLF-4/5 CBS Butte, MT

KHAS-5/21 NBC Hastings, NE

WLMB-40/5 Rel. Toledo, OH

KOBI-5/15 NBC Medford, OR

WMC-5/52 NBC Memphis, TN

WTVF-5/56 CBS Nashville, TN

WCYB-5/28 NBC Bristol, TN

WDTV-5/6 CBS Weston, WV


Elected Channel 6:


KRMA-6/18 PBS Denver, CO

KBSD-6/5 CBS Ensign, KS

KTVM-6/33 NBC Butte, MT

WRGB-6/39 CBS Albany, NY

NEW-6 PBS Casper, WY


I'll update this list tomorrow.


- Trip

__________________

KJ4IEA


Come visit RabbitEars for digital TV info including Digital Transitional Reports!


"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by Trip in VA; 02-11-05 at 06:21 AM..


----------



## deltaguy

I would never consider putting an antenna on the roof, or in the attic, without a rotor. If multipath is an issue, one setting will not necessarily work all of the time. I aimed my latest indoor antenna during a period of calm winds that don't happen that often here in July. I wrote down the antenna positions for the locals from the same antenna farm. I figured I had to have the directions right. Yet, during the World Series, I saw a dropout on Fox with mild winds from the north, around 5mph. I proceeded to change the antennas position around 30-40 degrees, and reception was back to the 90% I'd seen in July. The difference in the locations of these local stations antennas is less than 5%. Good Luck.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bschulte* /forum/post/15269475
> 
> 
> Hi guys, I'm brand new to the AVS Forums but I joined mainly due to this thread. I've had cable from about the age of 8 (30 now and a pricey digital cable package to go with it!), but fondly remember the old OTA days at my parents' house. I am getting into OTA myself after purchasing a 50" HDTV and wanting the best picture possible for the local channels. I also want to protect myself after the digital transition if I move to satellite (7 TVs and I'd want at most 4 satellite STBs, leaving three more TVs to cover).
> 
> 
> Anyway, on to the meat of the post. I want to dabble in DXing later on if time/money permit, but for now I want to keep it simple. I've attached the TV Fool report for my exact coordinates post-transition while leaving the antenna height blank. Here's what I want:
> 
> 
> 1) Roof mounted antenna on my single story home.
> 
> 2) The St. Louis stations located from 255-273 degrees.
> 
> 3) I'd like to have WSIU Ch. 8.
> 
> 4) I want to view these on my two main TVs for sure but also if possible on two more tvs. The longest cable run should be 75 feet at most, less for the two main tvs centered in the house on the main floor and the finished basement family room.
> 
> 
> After studying this for about a week, I think some type of Channel Master UHF antenna should do the trick and hopefully allow me to pull in WSIU. I'll get WPXS no matter what I do. I know people say to get a little more antenna than I need. If I get a CM4228HD, would I also need/want a CM7777 pre-amp? Is a 4228HD overkill by itself? Not having had real world experience with OTA, I have no practical experience to guide me here. What do you think?



A Preamp is a very good idea given multiple drops and long cables.

CM-7777 is probably okay for now, with only one very strong station, which would be

attenuated by nulls in the CM-4228's antenna pattern.


You have stations coming in from three directions, so you probably are considering a rotator.

Since the CM-4228 has moderate Hi-VHF gain, you may not need a separate VHF antenna.


On the other hand, a dual VHF and UHF antenna solution should also work.

Point a VHF (e.g. W-G YA-1713, Antennacraft Y-10-7-13 or Y-5-7-13) towards Ch8

and (using "UVSJ" combiner) point CM-4228 towards the West (or rotator)....

nearby Ch21 should come in on the sidelobe....if multipath isn't too bad.


Even with high gain antennas and a Preamp, the "pink" stations will be difficult and

below that will be nearly impossible except during anomalous propagation conditions.


----------



## holl_ands

*Gandolf007:*

Your signals are even weaker, so the CM-7777 and CM-4228 are good choices.

If the Hi-VHF performance of the CM-4228 is inadequate, you may need to add

a Hi-VHF antenna (e.g. W-G YA-1713, Antennacraft Y-10-7-13 or Y-5-7-13).


However, pointed SE, you probably won't pick up stations towards NW other

than maybe Ch12. These are duplicate networks, so perhaps it's not a problem.

[CM-4228 has much lower F/B Ratio for Hi-VHF channels.]


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/15267660
> 
> 
> It states:
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 75 percent or more of the over-the-air households have only set-top antennas.
> 
> 
> So perhaps, it does not even include attic antennas in the 75%.



It all depends on how they phrased the phone query. I would expect:

"Do you have a roof-top antenna?" would result in attic antennas being "indoors"...


----------



## SOFA.KING

Why choose the CM7777 all of the time? Why not choose the CM7778 when you are not in the deepest fringe area with a bad (low sensitivity) receiver? Is there something wrong with the CM7778? How come no one recommends the CM7778?


To me the gain looks just fine on the CM7778. It is more balanced than the CM7777. I ran some link budget calculations on my home system with the CM7778 and four room splits, and still came out with "a little" more gain then system loss (see post 8319). That even included deducting the noise figures of the preamp. Why would you want to overload the front end of your receiver with excess preamp gain? How would that benefit reception? Wouldn't it hurt reception at some point?


I think it would. I have seen selectivity and image rejection fall apart with excessive preamp gain into a receiver. The only case where a little extra helps is with a deaf receiver, but even then the selectivity and image rejection are at risk. So wouldn't it make sense to design your antenna system with just enough preamp gain to overcome feedline and splitter losses and not much more?


----------



## SOFA.KING




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15263719
> 
> 
> And lots of people have foil backed insulation in the walls, like me. It also seems some of the newer shingles have something like ground up steel wool in them. Anything but outdoors is a poor mounting location.




Yes, I forgot the old foil-backed insulation. I have that too! It keeps the A/C bills down in HOT Florida. Those cheapskate homes I saw go up around me had none of that. Wait till they get the electric bill. Ouch!










The only way any signal is getting into the lower part of this house is through the large glass doors and windows!


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bschulte* /forum/post/15269475
> 
> 
> Is a 4228HD overkill by itself?



Yes. The beamwidth of the 4228 is 19 degrees on channel 40. Your UHF stations are spread out by 18 degrees. A 4221 is more appropriate.


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SOFA.KING* /forum/post/15270123
> 
> 
> To me the gain looks just fine on the CM7778. It is more balanced than the CM7777.



It has 3dB less UHF gain and 7dB less VHF gain than the 7777, 23dB and 16dB respectively. So it probably makes sense for someone with either a much better VHF than UHF antenna (although a bigger UHF antenna would make more sense), or powerful VHF stations with weak UHF stations, or in situation where terrain is a bigger problem than distance and most channels are received by a diffraction path.


On the other hand, most people considering the CM7777 are probably looking at stations down below -90dBm anyway. With the input power that low, the extra gain of the 7777 isn't going to hurt and might help. Even if it does turn out to overload the receiver... splitters are cheap.


----------



## bernieoc

A couple of years back this forum helped me select my roof antennas a Wineguard P-8800 8 bay and a 5 element CH 3 only for my PBS station (nasty of them to go to ch 3). I have 2 locations 30 deg apart (23 miles and 47 miles) and a comprimise setting gets all with mostly good reception (ch 3 and 18 from 47 miles have some problems). Per TVFOOL all stations are green. They are combined with a CM7777 with about 40' of cable.

There is a Radio Shack large combo antenna in the attic that I decided to run to another TV and found it was better than the roof two antennas. I also have cable which I plan to cancel when I receive my DVT PAL DVR (2 tuner HD DVR).

I ran the attic cable into the Comcast cable 4 way splitter and all TV's had an acceptable redception - equal to the combined antennas on the roof.

The attic location seems to be better - it is below wires on the poles in front of it.

Th roof antennas are closser to the wire elevation - possible reason? Or just luck that the attic location is better

Another thought - the CM7777 is too much for the roof. If so how do I combine them?

How about moving the CM7777 (set with one input) to the attic and use the RS antenna with over 100' cable and a four way splitter with more cable runs.

How about moving the roof antennas to the attic (if they fit) with the CM7777 also going to the 4 way splitter.

If the attic works why not use it? Moving the CM7777 will be my first (and easiest move).

Any thoughts.

Bernieoc


----------



## Wireman134




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bschulte* /forum/post/15269475
> 
> 
> Hi guys, I'm brand new to the AVS Forums but I joined mainly due to this thread. I've had cable from about the age of 8 (30 now and a pricey digital cable package to go with it!), but fondly remember the old OTA days at my parents' house. I am getting into OTA myself after purchasing a 50" HDTV and wanting the best picture possible for the local channels. I also want to protect myself after the digital transition if I move to satellite (7 TVs and I'd want at most 4 satellite STBs, leaving three more TVs to cover).
> 
> 
> Anyway, on to the meat of the post. I want to dabble in DXing later on if time/money permit, but for now I want to keep it simple. I've attached the TV Fool report for my exact coordinates post-transition while leaving the antenna height blank. Here's what I want:
> 
> 
> 1) Roof mounted antenna on my single story home.
> 
> 2) The St. Louis stations located from 255-273 degrees.
> 
> 3) I'd like to have WSIU Ch. 8.
> 
> 4) I want to view these on my two main TVs for sure but also if possible on two more tvs. The longest cable run should be 75 feet at most, less for the two main tvs centered in the house on the main floor and the finished basement family room.
> 
> 
> After studying this for about a week, I think some type of Channel Master UHF antenna should do the trick and hopefully allow me to pull in WSIU. I'll get WPXS no matter what I do. I know people say to get a little more antenna than I need. If I get a CM4228HD, would I also need/want a CM7777 pre-amp? Is a 4228HD overkill by itself? Not having had real world experience with OTA, I have no practical experience to guide me here. What do you think?



I think you should try just the 4228 first directed toward St. Louis. mounted at least 25' AGL were signal strength is stronger. If needed to get channel 8 a inexpensive AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 added to the mast combined with a UVSJ will do the trick. I've got a similar set up in my attic with a DIY 4bay DB4 with slightly stronger signal strengths being about 35 miles from transmitters. This is your plot with antennas at 25' see the difference







.

Combined antennas to a distribution amp for multiple receivers. Pico makes fine amps for pro setups. http://yhst-18278607509093.stores.ya...mplifiers.html


----------



## SOFA.KING




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bernieoc* /forum/post/15273133
> 
> 
> A couple of years back this forum helped me select my roof antennas a Wineguard P-8800 8 bay and a 5 element CH 3 only for my PBS station (nasty of them to go to ch 3). I have 2 locations 30 deg apart (23 miles and 47 miles) and a comprimise setting gets all with mostly good reception (ch 3 and 18 from 47 miles have some problems). Per TVFOOL all stations are green. They are combined with a CM7777 with about 40' of cable.
> 
> There is a Radio Shack large combo antenna in the attic that I decided to run to another TV and found it was better than the roof two antennas. I also have cable which I plan to cancel when I receive my DVT PAL DVR (2 tuner HD DVR).
> 
> I ran the attic cable into the Comcast cable 4 way splitter and all TV's had an acceptable redception - equal to the combined antennas on the roof.
> 
> The attic location seems to be better - it is below wires on the poles in front of it.
> 
> Th roof antennas are closser to the wire elevation - possible reason? Or just luck that the attic location is better
> 
> Another thought - the CM7777 is too much for the roof. If so how do I combine them?
> 
> How about moving the CM7777 (set with one input) to the attic and use the RS antenna with over 100' cable and a four way splitter with more cable runs.
> 
> How about moving the roof antennas to the attic (if they fit) with the CM7777 also going to the 4 way splitter.
> 
> If the attic works why not use it? Moving the CM7777 will be my first (and easiest move).
> 
> Any thoughts.
> 
> Bernieoc




The first rule in antenna placement: Location location location!


Or was that realestate?










I have had similar experiences with all sorts of antennas. This is how I choose an antenna location; I take a portable receiver (with signal meter) and move the antenna up and down over all possible mounting locations. Sure enough...some spots are HOT and others are NOT. Locate the hot spots and mount there. Higher is not always better. On UHF a few inches can make a huge difference...VHF a few feet can do the same.


One time I put a 52 MHz (ham) ground plane antenna on my lawn as a temporary install until I could get it up on the roof. That location was HOT! I was talking 100+ miles simplex with 100W FM. No matter where I tried it on the roof, it was never as good. I never got that same range and repeaters were much weaker. I could tell more tales about weird antenna results, but this is not the forum for it. One thing I can say...high gain antennas are not always better. Verry narrow and compressed patterns on UHF can make reception go in and out when the wind blows. There is such a thing as "too much gain". One 6 dB low band antenna missed almost all 500 (and under) mile band openings but excelled on 1,000 + miles. People near me were talking to stations 300 - 500 miles that could not hear at all. I was talking better to long E skip. Why? It turns out the angle of radiation was too low (compressed) on the high gain antenna to do short skip. That is why looking at polar patterns and choosing the right antenna is better than thinking "bigger has to be better".


----------



## Gandalf007

You make a good point... would the HD7697P be a better choice than the 7698? (Note, I didn't plan on using a 4228 -- I know I need a good VHF antenna to pick up ch. 8, 11, and 13 from 67 miles away, and the Winegard 769x line looks like a good way to get that in one antenna.) I'm still leaning towards getting the stronger 7698, but am having trouble deciding on a preamp. I know the CM7777 is good but I'm worried about KBTX overloading it. Other options are the CM7778 and Winegard AP8700, 8780, and 8800.


I don't care about the stations from the NW, since they're all duplicates. If they come in, great, but he doesn't get them with rabbit ears now, so he wouldn't miss them.


----------



## SOFA.KING




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/15272301
> 
> 
> to be honest, I would not use the cm7778 or the other "16/23" gain preamps in the suburbs. too much gain. I stick with the hdp269. a ham tends to want extra amp gain to try to squeek more signal. I favor using less amp gain and larger antennas for more gain...even a few sizes larger than typical.
> 
> 
> the cm7778 electronics are in the same class as the cm 0068 preamp but in a cm7777 case. from what I understood, the cm 7777 and cm 7778 are not of the same class.
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/antennas/preamplifiers.asp
> 
> 
> In general, use the hdp 269 amp in the suburbs less than 25 or so miles from towers and all other amps, 30 or so miles from towers. ultimate amp selection depends on the several variables encountered on site.
> 
> 
> holl_and's preamp tool and process gets you in the ball park. Use it often..thanks



Not in the same class? What does that mean?










Looking at the chart in the link you posted, they got it wrong on the combining issue. That is how they classified them, and they are wrong. Solid Signal is not the best source for information. Both the CM7777 and CM7778 can use separate antennas for V/U, or combine them with a switch inside. This is a better source for information:

http://www.channelmasterintl.com/amplifiers.html 


The noise figures are close and the CM7778 has plenty of gain where you need it. All that extra gain on VHF is not needed. 3 dB on UHF is pointless if you are already ahead +8 on the link budget. Remember...a preamp does not give you "antenna gain". They are not designed to increase range. They are designed to overcome line loss and preserve antenna gain. The antenna is where you really get meaningful gain. A good receiver is also a major factor. A little extra preamp gain can't hurt, but too much can.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> This is your plot with antennas at 25' see the difference




That brings up the question, are the dB's, dBi from antenna gain and dBm from TVFool, equivalent ?


----------



## stampeder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15281530
> 
> 
> That brings up the question, are the dB's, dBi from antenna gain and dBm from TVFool, equivalent ?



Here's a good link to Field Intensity Unit comparisons and formulae:

http://www.softwright.com/faq/engine...Y%20UNITS.html


----------



## SOFA.KING




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/15279239
> 
> 
> FYI - I know what an amp does.



Well good for you.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/15279239
> 
> 
> ...you see what I mean now ??? The cm7777.7775 are better.



NO.










Not better, just different. 0.2 dB NF difference is nothing.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/15279239
> 
> 
> And I know how the ap8700, 8780, 4700,cm7778, cm0068,cm7777, etc. generally perform in the suburbs. I do not use the higher gain amps there unless the signals levels are below typical for that zone and require an amp with higher gain. It all depends on the unique variables of antenna gain, distribution losses, transmitter powers, the combination of channels in the market, loss due to geography and other external factors, inside install, etc. at the site.



Well woopie!











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/15279239
> 
> 
> The challenge then is how to compromise when you want to receive both local and distant channels in the suburban environment with high signal levels. The higher gain amps generally make things worse under those conditions.



That is what I was saying all along. You're not saying anything I don't already know, so why bother? Never mind...it's not that important.


----------



## 300ohm

Thanks for the link Stampeder.


From the site:



> Quote:
> When a "field strength contour" is plotted and identified in dBm or microvolts (dBµV), it is important to know these values of frequency and antenna gain. The user must understand that such "contours" are only valid for one frequency and the particular receiving antenna gain used for the prediction. There is also a fixed loss in the receiving antenna transmission line - often assumed to be lossless.



So, that meant I needed to know what gain antenna TVFool was using as a measurement reference. TVFools new FAQs gave me what I was was looking for :



> Quote:
> Antenna gain is the only quantity that should ever be ADDed to the NM value. Most antennas will specify their gain in dBd or simply dB, and this is the value that should be used. If an antenna's gain is specified in dBi units, then you need to subtract 2.15 in order to get the equivalent value in dBd units. If an antenna has a built-in amp, the extra gain from the amp SHOULD NOT be included as part of the antenna gain (this actually subtracts from the Noise Margin as we'll see next). Only the raw intrinsic gain of the physical antenna should be added to the Noise Margin.
> 
> 
> Be aware that amps and pre-amps will actually cause you to lower your Noise Margin. No matter how much gain an amp or pre-amp claims, it will actually reduce your Noise Margin by the amount listed as the Noise Figure (NF) in its specs. High quality consumer-grade amps usually have a Noise Figure of around 2-3 dB. Lower quality amps or ones that do not specify a noise figure at all will probably have a Noise Figure of around 6-10 dB. This is true for both stand-alone amps as well as antennas with built-in amps. This Noise Margin degradation is caused by limited efficiency of the electronics at the input of the amp prior to the signal being boosted. The primary benefit of the amp is to overcome further NM degradation from "downstream" losses (e.g., long cable runs, splitters, tuners with poor sensitivity, etc.). In other words, you suffer the amp's Noise Figure degradation once, and can usually ignore most of the other losses that occur after it.


----------



## holl_ands

See attachment for the SolidSignal Preamp Table, where I added a column

with the Max Input (dBm) for best Spurious Free Dynamic Range (SFDR)...

that is, minimal desensitization on weak channels due to intermod products.


Don't forget to adjust www.tvfool.com receive signal level (dBm), to add

antenna gain (dBd) and take away losses PRIOR to Preamp (e.g Balun/Coax).


Additional explanatory info and a detailed Calculator (incl LOS) were posted 4 Nov:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=8148 

 

Modifed S-S Chart Comparing Preamps.doc 87k . file


----------



## holl_ands

Fol. explanation from TVFool is close, but seems somewhat misleading:


> Quote:
> Antenna gain is the only quantity that should ever be ADDed to the NM value. Most antennas will specify their gain in dBd or simply dB, and this is the value that should be used. If an antenna's gain is specified in dBi units, then you need to subtract 2.15 in order to get the equivalent value in dBd units. If an antenna has a built-in amp, the extra gain from the amp SHOULD NOT be included as part of the antenna gain (this actually subtracts from the Noise Margin as we'll see next). Only the raw intrinsic gain of the physical antenna should be added to the Noise Margin.
> 
> 
> Be aware that amps and pre-amps will actually cause you to lower your Noise Margin. No matter how much gain an amp or pre-amp claims, it will actually reduce your Noise Margin by the amount listed as the Noise Figure (NF) in its specs. High quality consumer-grade amps usually have a Noise Figure of around 2-3 dB. Lower quality amps or ones that do not specify a noise figure at all will probably have a Noise Figure of around 6-10 dB. This is true for both stand-alone amps as well as antennas with built-in amps. This Noise Margin degradation is caused by limited efficiency of the electronics at the input of the amp prior to the signal being boosted. The primary benefit of the amp is to overcome further NM degradation from "downstream" losses (e.g., long cable runs, splitters, tuners with poor sensitivity, etc.). In other words, you suffer the amp's Noise Figure degradation once, and can usually ignore most of the other losses that occur after it.



The idealized receive sensitivity (-91 dBm) is calculated from knowing that DTV

requires the signal to be at least 15 dB above the thermal noise floor (-106 dBm).

In real systems, the System Noise Figure measures degradation from this ideal.


For example, if a DTV Tuner with NF=7 is connected directly to a 75-ohm antenna

(no Balun), sensitivity would be -84 dBm (CECB converter box spec is -83 dBm).


Without a Preamp, overall System Noise Figure is the sum of the Balun Loss (typ. 1.5-3 dB),

Antenna-to-Tuner Coax/Splitter Losses plus the Tuner Noise Figure (typ. 7-14 dB).


On the other hand, with a Preamp the overall System Noise Figure is the sum of the Balun Loss

(typ. 1.5-3 dB), Antenna-to-Preamp Coax Loss (hopefully very small), the Preamp Noise Figure

(typ. 2.2-3+ dB) and the post-Preamp Losses AS REDUCED by the Gain of the Preamp

(only about 1-2 dB).


So a Preamp has the POTENTIAL to improve sensitivity by 10+ dB...but ONLY IF it is

operated within the SFDR "linear" region....


Whenever input signal levels exceed numbers given above, intermod products

will pop up at various frequencies, desensitizing certain channels...


----------



## willscary

What is considered a strong signal? Here is my TV Fool plot. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d%3dcc5a3b06f0 I would like to add a CM 7777 preamp, but now I am a bit worried about overloading the preamp or overloading the TV tuner. I am looking at the stations 90 degrees east and also at 312 and 326 degrees northwest. The stations to the northwest could definitely use the amplification, but I am now worried about the overload issue if I introduce the 7777 and amplify the stations from the east. I use a pair of 91XGs for UHF and a pair of Funke PSP.1922s for VHF, each band combined with jointennas, then the bands combined with a UHF/VHF diplexer. I am hoping to swap the diplexer for the 7777. Hollands???


Any thoughts? (by the way, I have plugged in to your other spreadsheets, but it is greek to me...)


Bill


EDIT!!!!!: OOPS! This link only shows the current DTV signals. I am working to get the POST TRANSITION signals. You will need to change the chart to POST TRANSITION DIGITAL ONLY to view what I am looking for! Sorry about the confusion.


Bill


----------



## Falcon_77

Green signals are strong signals on the TV Fool plots. I would anticipate problems if you use a 7777 with the antenna(s) pointed to the East. The other directions are probably ok with the 7777, but you may want to consider a higher input pre-amp if you want to use it for all of the stations on your plot.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *willscary* /forum/post/15287292
> 
> 
> What is considered a strong signal? Here is my TV Fool plot. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d%3dcc5a3b06f0 I would like to add a CM 7777 preamp, but now I am a bit worried about overloading the preamp or overloading the TV tuner. I am looking at the stations 90 degrees east and also at 312 and 326 degrees northwest. The stations to the northwest could definitely use the amplification, but I am now worried about the overload issue if I introduce the 7777 and amplify the stations from the east. I use a pair of 91XGs for UHF and a pair of Funke PSP.1922s for VHF, each band combined with jointennas, then the bands combined with a UHF/VHF diplexer. I am hoping to swap the diplexer for the 7777. Hollands???
> 
> 
> Any thoughts? (by the way, I have plugged in to your other spreadsheets, but it is greek to me...)
> 
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
> EDIT!!!!!: OOPS! This link only shows the current DTV signals. I am working to get the POST TRANSITION signals. You will need to change the chart to POST TRANSITION DIGITAL ONLY to view what I am looking for! Sorry about the confusion.
> 
> 
> Bill



Bill, you should be fine using the CM 7777 with your setup. You are 37 miles from your nearest station. I'm using the 7777 with virtually the same setup you have (pair of Triax Unix 100s instead of the 91XGs, and a single Funke PSP 1922) and I'm 3 - 5.5 miles from my local TV and FM radio towers. I do have a few overload issues with some analog channels, but to date, no noticeable overload issues caused by the 7777 with local or distant digital channels.


I've attached a pic of my setup, which does include a single 91XG about 2.5 feet below the Triax stack and about 4 feet above the Funke 1922.


Steve


----------



## b1gmoose

Does anybody have any experience with the Hy-Gain AR-38 rotator? I like it because it has a remote control. But it looks small like the channel master units. But as long as it's of better quality with more than a 90 day warranty, I'll be happy.


Any ideas on accuracy/callibration frequency?

http://www.hy-gain.com/Product.php?productid=AR-38 


Thanks, ~ryan


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15286825
> 
> 
> See attachment for the SolidSignal Preamp Table, where I added a column
> 
> with the Max Input (dBm) for best Spurious Free Dynamic Range (SFDR)...
> 
> that is, minimal desensitization on weak channels due to intermod products.
> 
> 
> Don't forget to adjust www.tvfool.com receive signal level (dBm), to add
> 
> antenna gain (dBd) and take away losses PRIOR to Preamp (e.g Balun/Coax).
> 
> 
> Additional explanatory info and a detailed Calculator (incl LOS) were posted 4 Nov:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=8148



Holl_ands, could you help me pick a pre-amp? My tvfool results are attached. I'm using an attic mounted DIY antenna (assume gain at ~10 db). The distribution will include 120 ft rg-6, one 2-way splitter, and two a/b switches. My two highest power signals average -35 dbm. If I add antenna gain to highest power signals (-35 + 10 = 25) and then subtract for balun and pre amp noise figure (-25-2-3 = -30), I have a max input of -30 dbm (not subtracting losses from attic mount). Based on your table, I should stay away from a Channel Master 7777 and look for a lower gain pre-amp such as the Winegard 8700 or HDP269, correct? Which would you recommend? Thanks!


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *goldrich* /forum/post/15287825
> 
> 
> Bill, you should be fine using the CM 7777 with your setup. You are 37 miles from your nearest station. I'm using the 7777 with virtually the same setup you have (pair of Triax Unix 100s instead of the 91XGs, and a single Funke PSP 1922) and I'm 3 - 5.5 miles from my local TV and FM radio towers. I do have a few overload issues with some analog channels, but to date, no noticeable overload issues caused by the 7777 with local or distant digital channels.
> 
> 
> I've attached a pic of my setup, which does include a single 91XG about 2.5 feet below the Triax stack and about 4 feet above the Funke 1922.
> 
> 
> Steve



Like your setup, why have the 91XG pointed the same direction as the pair?


----------



## Piggie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/15271036
> 
> 
> On the other hand, most people considering the CM7777 are probably looking at stations down below -90dBm anyway. With the input power that low, the extra gain of the 7777 isn't going to hurt and might help. Even if it does turn out to overload the receiver... splitters are cheap.



I find on most receivers, if there are not stations stronger than -40dbm, a 7777 should not overload. Now if all your stations are that strong, it's a waste of money, I agree. I have stations from -40 to -70 on a 4221 and it works fine.


I find from playing with preamps on TV/FM and ham bands that what becomes more important is the noise floor of the amp, not the gain. The 7777 has the best noise floor on the market. It's noise floor is better than most receivers. Putting a 7777 in the path lowers the noise floor for the entire system to the noise floor of the amp, since the amp brings the signal level up so high, the noise floor in the receiver becomes moot in most cases.


Another comment I heard is hams think more gain is better. You can be sure this Pig/Ham thinks you put as much metal in the sky as you can. The antenna determines how much signal you capture. The amp can't make up for that in raw RF. But the amp lowers the noise floor of the system, making it seem to add "gain" to the system.


I would love to be able to buy an amp with the noise floor of a 7777 but half the gain. My worst case on my highest channel (36) on 100 ft of coax and a splinter is only about 6 to 8 db of loss. Even adding a 4 way for more receivers would only up that 3db, hence about 20 to 30 db of gain would work.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* /forum/post/15290346
> 
> 
> Like your setup, why have the 91XG pointed the same direction as the pair?



It's aimed in the same direction as I've been testing and experimenting between the single antenna and the stack. Several weeks ago I had a CM 4228 mounted below the Triax stack instead of the 91XG. Overall, I tend to prefer the 91XG over the CM 4228.


Steve


----------



## videobruce

Assuming it is a three wire cable, the repeatability or accuracy would be the same as all the others comsumer models that have ripped off the design from Channel Master.


Same/similar housing which means _probably_ the same (or similar) drive system.


----------



## mattdp

That looks exactly like the OEM rotors sold at home improvement stores and everywhere else. I would just get a CM 9251 and call it good.


----------



## nybbler

Never mind, didn't read the FAQ.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Overall, I tend to prefer the 91XG over the CM 4228.



Today. But come February, the CM4228 should be your choice.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15297578
> 
> 
> Today. But come February, the CM4228 should be your choice.



Even after Feb. 17, the CM 4228 (now the 4228HD) still won't be my top choice. With a Winegard YA 1026 for low band VHF, a Funke PSP 1922 for high band VHF and a pair of Triax Unix 100 W/B antennas stacked, I'm ready for local and distant (DX) DTV stations.


Steve


----------



## holl_ands

*bernieoc:*

1. Outdoor signal strengths now and Post-Feb are very strong. Preamps will

generate intermods, desensitizing the DTV tuner. Which would explain why

the extra loss in the attic location works better.


This extra attic loss may lower signal levels enough to use the HDP-269 Preamp....

or the CM-7777 with extra input attenuation.

Try putting 3-10 dB of attenuation between the antenna and the Preamp, such as

one or two RF Splitters (4 dB each) or an (OUTDOOR!!!) RF Attenuator:
http://search.solidsignal.com/?site=...&I1.x=0&I1.y=0 


2. WBRA-DT will remain on Ch3. Fortunately, a 6 dB signal increase should help.


HLSJ combines a Lo-VHF band (e.g. Ch3) antenna with a Hi-VHF band

(e.g. VHF portion of R-S Combo)....but it doesn't pass UHF....so you would need

to also add a UHF-Only antenna (or figure out how to split VHF & UHF on R-S):
http://yhst-18278607509093.stores.ya...combiners.html 

Note that UVSJ combines entire VHF band with UHF.


This allows fol. options:
*Alt1:* R-S combo in the attic may be adequate for Ch3 in Feb2009. You might also try

it with a Preamp....plus perhaps a few dB of input attenuation.
*

Alt2:* Combine Ch3 antenna with R-S Combo for VHF-Only using HLSJ and then,

using UVSJ, combine that with a UHF-Only antenna (or the UHF-Only section of R-S

if you can). If you still have problems, you could try a Preamp as described above.


----------



## holl_ands

*IDRick:*

FYI: For digital signals, need to add 7 dB to convert from average to peak.

Hence -30 dBm average becomes -23 dBm peak....which are what cause the most glitches.

*UHF:*

Attic loss is difficult to estimate....based on numerous studies, I assume a loss of 13 dB (+/- 7 dB).

With "typical" attic loss, RX level would be about -36 dBm peak, which is at Max Sip for CM7777.

Lower attic loss would reduce dynamic range.....so a higher overload Preamp would be

"better"....if the weak signals were actually above the sensitivity level....


You would need to crank the numbers to see which Preamp MAXIMIZES dynamic range....

However, I doubt you are going to NEED the maximum dynamic range, cuz

"grey" zone stations are probably going to be too weak (zero fade margin, or even below threshhold).


The max signal level into your TVs is about -14 dBm which shouldn't degrade it's sensitivity.

Although meaningful specs are mostly unknown, try to keep below -10 dBm...

[-30 dBm average + 26 dB gain - 6 dB coax - 4 dB splitter = -14 dBm TV Input]

*VHF:*

Note there is only ONE strong VHF signal, which can be tolerated much more than two,

in addition to CM7777's higher max signal input level for VHF.


----------



## videobruce

Or get the Eagle Aspen rotor and have position feedback for the price of a regular rotor.










mattdp; Don't forget about the BPL investigation and Martin.


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15299943
> 
> *IDRick:*
> 
> *VHF:*
> 
> Note there is only ONE strong VHF signal, which can be tolerated much more than two,
> 
> in addition to CM7777's higher max signal input level for VHF.



thanks for your reply holl_ands! I attached my post transition digital plot in the original post. The current plot has 4 high vhf signals (3 analog and 1 digital). All are in the green range and similar in strength. A pre-amp is definitely out of the picture until after the transition! Yes, you are correct about the stations in the gray range. I cannot pick up any of those in the attic or outdoors on the roof.


Thanks,


Rick


----------



## Konrad2

> The 7777 has the best noise floor on the market.


CM 7777 has 2.2 dB. What about the Research Communications at 0.4 dB ?


> Even adding a 4 way for more receivers would only up that 3db


2-way splitter: 3.5 dB

4-way splitter: 7.4 dB

(some splitters will be worse)


As long as the amp itself is not overloading, you can always add

a $2 attenuator to keep tuners from overloading. The problem is

keeping the amp itself from overloading.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> CM 7777 has 2.2 dB. What about the Research Communications at 0.4 dB ?



Isnt that the pricey one that needs to be imported from England ?



> Quote:
> (some splitters will be worse)



Yeah, only the ones marked 3.5 db loss will be 3.5 db. The common unmarked ones are 4.5 db or worse from what Ive read.


----------



## holl_ands

*willscary:*

JoinTenna insertion loss specs only say that it will affect adjacent VHF and UHF

up to 5 channels away. So the Ch11 JoinTenna should be okay, but the Ch31 Jointenna

will ALSO attenuate Ch30 (Analog W30BU), which may or may not concern you.

BTW: My fading memory seems to think it's about 0.5 dB off-channel, so you're

avoiding a sensitivity loss of about 1 dB using them AFTER the Preamps...

and out of the elements.


=====================================

To determine which are the "strong signals"...and how many....

I'll do current situation and I'll let you calculate Post-Feb2009.


a. First of all, *ADD +7 dB* to the strongest *DTV signals (only)* to convert

from average to peak:

TVFool Pwr(dBm): -43.8, -44.6, -48.2, -48.6, -37.8 (A), -38.9 (A), -51.5

Add 7 dB for DTV: -36.8, -37.6, -41.2, -41.6, -37.8 (A), -38.9 (A), -44.5


b. Then *ADD 12.0 dB* for the Antenna Gain (14.5 dBd) less Losses in Balun (1.5 dB),

Coax Ant-to-Preamp (0 dB) and (if indoors) a "guestimate" for indoor/attic loss.

I use a spread sheet for S.D. and L.A., but let's assume 91XG has 14.5 dBd gain for

ALL channels, bearing in mind it's a max value (A-D website says 16.7 dBi max):

-24.8, -25.6, -29.2, -29.6, -25.8 (A), -26.9 (A), -32.5

[FYI: dBd = dBi - 2.15 dB is presumed in tvfool calculations.]


c. Ignore those that are more than 6 dB weaker than the strongest....since their

contribution is minimal:

-24.8, -25.6, -29.2, -29.6, -25.8 (A), -26.9 (A)
*So there are SIX strong signals with average strength of about -27.0 dBm.*


Per my chart, *CM7777* maintains maximum SFDR up to Max Input of -36.5 dBm for

two strong signals

or *-43.5 dBm for SIX strong signals* after reducing 7 dB (per foot note).


=====================================

So you are severely "overloading" the CM7777 by about 16.5 dB...YIKES!!!

HOWEVER, if all you want is the locals, you don't NEED very much dynamic range,

so the CM7777 will probably work anyway....(go figure....)


Note that after 26 dB Preamp Gain, it's outputting -1.0 dBm (average), which,

after attenuation by Coax downlead and RF Splitters might not be providing the

maximum dynamic range within your DTV Tuners....so a small amount (6 dB?) of

additional post-Preamp attenuation would optimize performance....

[I don't recall you saying how long your coax runs were....]


DTV Tuner input specs are hard to come by, but should remain below about

-10 dBm to -15 dBm to minimize intermod desensitization in the DTV's Tuner.

FYI: CECB Converter Box spec max is -5 dBm for a SINGLE signal, but doesn't

address intermod desensitization due to multiple signals.


Your local stations don't really need a Preamp. Instead of CM7777, you could

use UVSJ VHF/UHF Antenna Coupler:
http://yhst-18278607509093.stores.ya...pico-0389.html 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=UVSJ 

[PS: JVI and Holland also make UVSJ, but insertion spec is higher.]


If you still want a Preamp for more distant stations, use the low-gain, high-overload

W-G HDP-269 (with a UVSJ), which maintains SFDR at -21.6 dBm with SIX strong signals.

[Or use a 3 to 7 dB attenuator on CM7777's input...each dB reduces intermods 3 dB.]


----------



## willscary

Thanks Holl-ands!


I had gone through your spreadsheet several times and come to the same conclusion you did, but a lot of people tell me I am plenty far enough away that the 7777 would benefit me.


That being said, I have already installed a 91XG pointed east at 43' and a Funke psp.1922 at 36' also pointed east. I get all my locals perfectly without the amp.


My plan was to add a 4228HD for channel 31 and another Funke for channels 7 and 9, both pointed NW. I planned on running separate cables and seperate amps from both of the NW antennas, then joining all 4 together with the jointennas. However, I installed an antenna for my niece on Friday and I was able to pick up stations to the rear quite well with the 91XG. I am now considering pointing the two existing antennas NW to recieve the out of market stations, adding the 7777, and seeing if I can get enough signal from the rear of these two antennas to receive both markets. I am thinking that perhaps with the strong stations to the rear, the attenuation will make all of the signals roughly -50 to -60 dbm. The 7777 might just make them all come in well.


Any thoughts?


Bill


----------



## AntAltMike

Can you locate the published maximum input spec? In my market, all of my MATV competitors have just cannon-balled into the swimming pool and all guarantee that their MATV 8VSB heterodyne-processed headends will develop a guaranteed 0 dBmV at each wallplate with loads of eight to fourteen channels, which is a physical impossibility since their launch level is over 20 dB below the launch level of their analog, high powered strip amplifier headends, but I have some trouble convincing prospective new clients that not only is what they all are proposing impossible, it is also undesirable.


It seems to me that a year or two ago, someone here, probably Holl_ands, had observed that the set top box tuners commonly had varactor controlled bandpass filters on their inputs that varied in bandwidth from 10 to 20 MHz, so a somewhat larger than normal channel load won't have much affect on the maximum input levels as long as they are not adjacent channels.



I've been installing UHF additions to existing MATV headends for the last eight years. Until about a month ago, none of the manufacturers of commercial distribution amplifiers were even furnishing any maximum output ratings for digital loads for their amplifiers, so I was just knocking 8dB off whatever they gave for maximum output levels for similar sized analog loads.


Blonder Tongue now gives some maximum output level benchmark numbers for digital loads, and, oversimplifying greatly, they basically say to run the distribution amps about 4 dB weaker than you would with an analog load.


Unfortunately for us, comparing maximum analog and digital power levels is at best an apples and oranges comparison. With a single amplifier in an analog system, one is concerned with the level at which some undesirable artifact becomes visible on an analog picture, whereas with the digital signals, we are concerned with the level at which a more robust signal cannot be reliably decoded. The matter is further complicated by the fact that the amplifier manufacturers pick the engineering benchmark levels they furnish to be those appropriate for loads of equal strength channels, whereas those who are amplifying the signals from a home antenna are dealing with significant signal strength differentials. I once fed a couple of +20 dBmV peak analog signals into a Winegard 23 dB gain preamp (the infamous, undocumented AP4727) along with a real weak (maybe -30 dBmV RMS) digital signal and the digital signal got beat to paste, whereas when I fed the same three signals into a Channel Master 23 dB amp with similar published output ratings, the digital signal held up well.


----------



## Konrad2

>> CM 7777 has 2.2 dB. What about the Research Communications at 0.4 dB ?


> Isnt that the pricey one that needs to be imported from England ?


IIRC it was something like $400. I don't know where it is made.


----------



## ctdish

The last Research Communications preamp I bought at the end of the summer was $160including shipping. They do come from England.

John


----------



## willscary

Today I turned my two existing antennas. My 91XG was turned to 326 degrees to pick up channel 31 (post trans) and my Funke psp.1922 was turned to 283 degrees to face channel 13 (post trans). I added the 7777 preamp.


All of the stations to the west that I wanted to receive now come in with a full 100% signal strength. I even receive channel 12.1 out of Rhinelander with a signal strength of 60 and I even receive analog channel 13 out of Eau Claire!


My local channels all come in with a signal of between 55-60. However, there is a channel that has occational dropouts. Channel 2 (physical channel 23) is the strongest channel I have. Yet it is the only one dropping out. I an guessing that channel 24 from the west is interfering with it. Any Suggestions? Perhaps moving the 91XG a bit more towards the north would help?


Would a distribution amp help at all?


(See my TV Fool plot in the earlier post)


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> AltAntMike:
> 
> Can you locate the published maximum input spec?



"Overload" spec is the point at which intermod noise floor is -46 dB below the input signal levels.

Unfortunately B-T, C-M and W-G use different methods, e.g. number of strong signals and

referencing either OUTPUT or INPUT signal levels. See spread sheet for spec summary

and conversions between common set of assumptions here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=15005797 


CECB single signal input spec is -5 dBm. I've also seen several "typical" tin-can tuner specs

for max single signals in the -10 to 0 dBm range, but I haven't seen any multiple signal specs.

Input bandwidth spec of 20 to 10 MHz (low to high frequencies) comes from Tuner specs

and engineering estimate re a single tuned inductor coil with a "typical" low-"Q" Varactor Diode:
http://www.rf114.com/lib/download.ph...s_tech&uid=111 
http://www.micrometrics.com/pdfs/TV_AppNotes.pdf 
http://www.infineon.com/dgdl/bb535se...13d99d5153013c 


Generally, you won't find publicly disclosed Tuner specs...here's an exception:
http://www.infineon.com/dgdl/AppNote...71355586483477 


======================================

FCC-OET tests on (unknown) DTVs & HD-STBs are found on OET website:
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/documents/ 


Several 2005/2006 DTVs were tested using multiple input signals in FCC/OET 07-TR-1003:
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/document...s-03-30-07.pdf 


From this you can "see" the tuner input attenuation vs frequency curve by looking at how

much interfering signal must increase in level when moving further away from tuned channel.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15315373
> 
> 
> "Overload" spec is the point at which intermod noise floor is -46 dB below the input signal levels.
> 
> Unfortunately B-T, C-M and W-G use different methods, e.g. number of strong signals and
> 
> referencing either OUTPUT or INPUT signal levels. See spread sheet for spec summary
> 
> and conversions between common set of assumptions here:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=15005797 .



It is not surprising that Blonder Tongue would tend to use different assumptions than would Channel Master and Winegard, because Blonder Tongue products are commercial products most commonly used to amplify larger, balanced loads.


Channel Master and Winegard used to sometimes use 5% sync compression as the overloading benchmark level for their amplifiers. Then, some of their literature changed the overloading parameter to -46dBc (decibels below carrier) cross modulation and coincidentally, the dBmV max levels were exactly the same for-46dBc cross mod as they had been for 5% sync compression.


A benchmark level of -46dB of cross mod may not be useful for digital signal amplification planning. -46dB is the S/N ratio for a TASO Grade 1 NTSC picture. But if digital signals can reliably be decoded with a noise floor just 16dB below the signal, then I would think they could similarly withstand cross mod signals that strong. I have seen other manufacturers furnish benchmark levels of -40 dBc for their amplification products.


Generally, if you load up a Blonder Tongue broadband amplifier to the point where compression becomes visible, each time you double the number of equal strength carriers, the max output goes down by 3dB. Thus, a workhorse, Blonder Tongue BIDA 450 or 550 can put out 46dBmV with a 60 NTSC channel load, 49 dB with a 30 channel load, and 15 dBmV with a 15 channel load.


In engineering satellite TV system, the benchmark level that manufacturers used to use for 3rd Order IMD was -35 dBc for analog systems and -40 dBc for digital systems. They used to claim that every time an input was increased by one dB, the 3rd Order IMD went up by 2 dB, but most engineers I have discussed this with dispute that relationship. They tend to agree that 3rd order IMD goes up or down by 3dB for each 1 dB change in input.


FWIW, if someone producing sales literature mistakenly substituted the term 3rd Order IMD for 2nd Order IMD, then all the rest of the manufacturers might have just copied it. They have done that with other products in the satellite and off-air signal processing business.


Amplified signals interact with each other in lots of ways. Blonder Tongue produces tables that show various intermod products for their distribution amplifiers under different channel loads. Blonder Tongue amplifiers use different amplification architectures from one another, and one of them is called "power doubling". A power doubling amplifier develops the same maximum output power before reaching unacceptable sync compression as do their similar models that do not "power double". I asked a Blonder Tongue engineer why anyone would pay more for the power doubling model, and he said that there is some intermodulation artifact incurred in a cascaded system that will be at a lower level in a system that uses power doubling architecture, and so more amplifiers can be cascaded when it is used. That doesn't affect the hobbyists here, but it means a lot to those distribution signals in a large plant, like a hospital or a college campus.


Way back in this thread, there is an article linked that says that a single digital signal, if amplified to the level at which it develops -40dBc of 3rd Order IMD on-channel, will develop -52dBc of 3rd Order IMD on the adjacent channels. That is important to know, because if you have adjacent digital channels that vary in strength by more than 12 dB, then the point at which the 3rd Order IMD from the strong signal will unacceptably degrade the adjacent channel will be a lower power level than the one at which it unacceptably degrades itself.


We are a long way from being able to mathematically determine the point at which any real, uneven loading of an amplifier will unacceptably degrade weaker signals in the presence of stronger ones.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Channel 2 (physical channel 23) is the strongest channel I have. Yet it is the only one dropping out. I an guessing that channel 24 from the west is interfering with it. Any Suggestions?



It sounds like a classic case of the preamp overloading your channel 23. Try a variable attenuator. A distribution amp would be the worse thing you could do in that type of situation.


----------



## willscary

Preamp overload? The strong station is facing away from the antenna. Shouldn't I have 20+ db of attenuation there? My signal strength is only about 60%.


Bill


----------



## Intheswamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *willscary* /forum/post/15318526
> 
> 
> Preamp overload? The strong station is facing away from the antenna. Shouldn't I have 20+ db of attenuation there? My signal strength is only about 60%.
> 
> 
> Bill



Hmm, wouldn't that 60% actually be signal quality rather than strength?


Ed


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *willscary* /forum/post/15315229
> 
> 
> ...Channel 2 (physical channel 23) is the strongest channel I have. Yet it is the only one dropping out. I an guessing that channel 24 from the west is interfering with it. Any Suggestions? Perhaps moving the 91XG a bit more towards the north would help?...



You could be receiving out-of-phase signals from the off-targeted antenna.


The wavelength of channel 23 in RG-6 with a velocity of .78 is about 17-1/2". You can make up half a dozen or more jumper wires that vary in length in three inch or smaller increments and insert one at a time (edit) *between one of the antennas and your antenna combining splitter* and evaluate the performance of each. You might find that a few of them make the problem go away. If three of them make the problem go away, use the one in the middle. You probably will not need to cut the wires to smaller increments than that.


I did that successfully last Friday in a nineteen channel, three antenna headend where I had some unintended channel 27 signal leaking through my channel 30 bandpass filter and degrading the desired channel 27.


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/15315903
> 
> 
> FWIW, if someone producing sales literature mistakenly substituted the term 3rd Order IMD for 2nd Order IMD, then all the rest of the manufacturers might have just copied it. They have done that with other products in the satellite and off-air signal processing business.



I don't think 2nd order intermod matters for OTA purposes at all, provided VHF-Hi, VHF-Lo, and UHF are amplified separately and filtered both before and after amplification. It only becomes an issue when you have more than an octave range.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/15325694
> 
> 
> I don't think 2nd order intermod matters for OTA purposes at all, provided VHF-Hi, VHF-Lo, and UHF are amplified separately and filtered both before and after amplification. It only becomes an issue when you have more than an octave range.



And similarly, 5% sync compression doesn't mean a hell of a lot when estimating degradation thresholds for digital signals. What I was getting at is that the rating info in sales literature accompanying consumer amplifiers doesn't deserve the credence we often give it here.


(BTW, 2nd Order does matter a little for me because I sometimes heterodyne convert UHF off-air to midband and superband, but I'm the odd duck here)


As a general rule, amplifier power limits furnished by manufacturers are generally attempts to determine the point at which a bunch of similar strength signals unacceptably beat up another similar strength signal, whereas in residential off-air applications, we are concerned about the point at which they beat up signals that are sometimes 40dB weaker, and I doubt I'll ever be able to mathematize such an analysis with any tools that are available to me.


Blonder Tongue and Winegard have discontinued manufacture of most of their distribution amplifiers that had three separate amplifiers for low, mid and highband. Any you can still buy are, "old, new stock" which is to say, they are new in the box but the box has dust on it.


----------



## dr1394

Some useful math:

http://www.minicircuits.com/pages/pdfs/Zrl.pdf 


Ron


----------



## willscary




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/15319089
> 
> 
> You could be receiving out-of-phase signals from the off-targeted antenna.
> 
> 
> The wavelength of channel 23 in RG-6 with a velocity of .78 is about 17-1/2". You can make up half a dozen or more jumper wires that vary in length in three inch or smaller increments and insert one at a time and evaluate the performance of each. You might find that a few of them make the problem go away. If three of them make the problem go away, use the one in the middle. You probably will not need to cut the wires to smaller increments than that.
> 
> 
> I did that successfully last Friday in a nineteen channel, three antenna headend where I had some unintended channel 27 signal leaking through my channel 30 bandpass filter and degrading the desired channel 27.




Thanks! I tried this and it worked! The station, and all others, are now rock solid!


Thanks again.


Bill


----------



## rthurlow

Hi folks,


I need some advice on a preamp, and was directed here after a post in the Northern Colorado HDTV forum. Here's a post, edited to provide context; apologies if I miss anything. The bottom line: I have a UHF preamp that's great, tried a VHF/UHF preamp that didn't work out, and I'm trying to pick what to try next. I'm in Fort Collins, CO 80525, and am getting most locals well, including both Denver metro PBS stations. Three stations in my area will go back to VHF-HI after the digital transition (KMGH ABC to 7, KUSA NBC to 9 and KBDI PBS to 13, not 12). The other PBS station, KRMA, will stay at channel 18.


I have two HD receivers that have somewhat different characteristics, and I have a temporary solution I'm doing well with. I currently have my roof-mounted CM-4228 feeding into a Channel Master CM-7775 preamp, but the amp is in my family room, not on my roof because it's a nice VHF filter and I'll care come Feb. 17. I then split the signal in two for my Dish 942 and my Directv HR10-250 receivers. Without the preamp, I can't split at all, and I can't really get stable signals to the HR10-250 alone, either. The Dish handles some channels better; for example, it likes 5.1 from Cheyenne, and the HR10-250 doesn't now. My guess is multipath. But overall, I'm happy with this except when I think of post-transition.


To handle post-transition, I went after a VHF/UHF preamp to replace the CM-7775. I picked out a Winegard 8275, which has similar gain for UHF, but something about it is not as good as the CM-7775 for my current signals. At the moment, this helps get KQCK on the rare days they transmit, but I lose the reliable KRMA and KUSA access I have now (sigh), plus KWHD and KRMT (no big deal, of course). With the this preamp, I expect to get KUSA and KMGH, but I lose KRMA after transition, until they solve their coverage issue. I know mounting the preamp outside could help, but that's unlikely before Feb 17.


So I'm thinking of taking up Solid Signal's returns policy to try another preamp. What are the odds that the CM-7777 or CM-7778 would be better here? Does anyone know why there are two models so similar at the same price point, and how to contrast them? They both have separate or combined VHF and UHF inputs and similar (though not identical) gain figures.


Thanks,

Rob T


----------



## Digital Rules

Hey Rob,


Go to www.tvfool.com & save your "_post-transition digital_" report. Also, go to www.fmfool.com & post that report as well. You look to be borderline for overloading the pre-amp with the high signal levels in your area. Others here will be able to offer suggestions to help you out based on those 2 reports.


----------



## Don_M

Rob,


Took a look at TVFool and FMFool reports for your ZIP code (both attached) as there's probably not much signal variation in the terrain thereabouts. Your issues are likely the result of too much pre-amp gain rather than too little. With a 4228 feeding a 7775, I get at least 13 stations that are pre-amp overload candidates after the transition. The 7777 and 7778 are roughly the same as the 7775 for overload tolerance, while the AP-8275 has a significantly lower overload threshold (~ 7dB) than all three CM models. Your best solution is lower gain and higher input capability. The only pre-amp sold that fits the bill right now is the Winegard HDP-269. I calculate no overload potential with a 4228 and a 269 in your area (though KQCK-DT comes close). It has plenty of gain for two splits; as you noted, though, it needs to be up at the antenna for best results.


The HDP-269 has no FM trap, and that may nor may not be a problem: On one hand, you have lots of strong FM signals; on the other, the 4228 has no usable FM gain, and if it's pointed at Lookout, it's facing away from the strongest stations. Try the 269 first and see how it goes after the transition. (The shutdown of analog KFCT-TV might help matters, too.) Write back if issues continue.


----------



## avJohnny

What antenna would I use in my attic? I'm only interested in main locals. I was thinking the Channel Master 4228, since it's a powerful antenna that should cut through the attic and it can pick up hi-VHF. All the main locals, except one (KPXC) is located at ~200 degrees. Will the 4228 pick up KPXC which is at 59 degrees, or should I pick up a DB8, instead?


I don't think I'll need a pre-amp, but I'm not sure. Any advice on this?


----------



## nybbler

Attics are always tricky; signals bounce around in ways that are not always predictable. Your best bet might be a smallish UHF/VHF-Hi combo antenna; they tend to have significant pickup off the back.


----------



## Don_M

*avJohnny:* Howdy, neighbor!


An attic antenna can work as long as there are no signal-blocking obstructions in front of it (i.e., the "open" end of the antenna, which you would point to the south-southwest). These include metal vents or ducts; aluminum, brick, stone or stucco siding; tiles or a radiant barrier on the roof; or foil-backed insulation. Asphalt shingles, a wooden roof deck, wood-frame construction or vinyl siding cause only modest signal attenuation in our dry climate.


Avoid the DB8. While a fine antenna, it's designed for UHF only, which leaves out 7, 9 and 12 after the transition in February. There are less-expensive alternatives to the 4228 that will provide good results. Per *nybbler's* suggestion, have a look at a Winegard HD-7694. At 65 inches long and 36 inches wide, it's small enough to fit inside most attics. It also has better gain on 7, 9 and 12 while providing solid signals on the rest of the channels.


At an ERP of 1 megawatt from 9 miles out, KPXC-DT 59.x is probably strong enough to be received on the back side of any antenna you decide on.


You don't need an amp unless the coax downlead from the antenna to a single TV would be more than 150 feet long, or you'll be connecting more than one tuner to the antenna. If so, the only one that will work well in your area is the Winegard HDP-269. Higher-gain pre-amps are likely to overload because of the strong signal from KPXC, among other stations.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *avJohnny* /forum/post/15349345
> 
> 
> What antenna would I use in my attic?



The 4228 is a UHF only antenna. You have three VHF stations. Some will suggest that a 4228 works on VHF, which is true, but it's worst VHF channel is 7 (KMGH) and the antenna will get less signal in the attic. Try it at your own risk.


Take a look at the Winegard HD76XX series of Hi-VHF/UHF antennas.


The Antennacraft HBU-22 might even work for you.


Add KPXC with a 4221 and a Jointenna tuned to channel 43.


----------



## avJohnny




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/15350956
> 
> 
> Per *nybbler's* suggestion, have a look at a Winegard HD-7694. At 65 inches long and 36 inches wide, it's small enough to fit inside most attics. It also has better gain on 7, 9 and 12 while providing solid signals on the rest of the channels.



Sounds good. What's the easiest way to mount this antenna in an attic? Do I need to get any special mounting device?


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *avJohnny* /forum/post/15355721
> 
> 
> What's the easiest way to mount this antenna in an attic?



Some folks simply place the antenna on the floor, which isn't advisable: You want as much separation as possible from any electrical wiring to reduce AC interference. You also want the ability to turn the antenna at least a little bit for precise aiming after it's installed. That means using brackets and masts.


I have two antennas, VHF and UHF, in separate attic locations. I picked up small, inexpensive antenna-mast wall brackets (sold in sets of two) at the home center. RS carries them as well. The brackets are screwed to roof rafters, above the antennas. For cheap masts, I cut up a 10-foot length of 1" I.D. white PVC water pipe. (For outdoor mounts, though, only a steel antenna mast and heavy-duty brackets will stand up to wind loads in the long term.)


You can either hang the mast from a single bracket screwed into a roof rafter and clamp the antenna to the bottom of the mast, or use both wall brackets attached to supports or trusses with the antenna mounted above the brackets. With the latter method, you may need to nail horizontal wood scraps to the supports/trusses wide enough to accept the bracket screws. If such a location makes for cumbersome installation or aiming, it may be best to attach longer boards a foot apart horizontally between two supports, then attach a bracket to the center of each. The brackets need to be level wherever you attach them.


----------



## Ken H




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/15357343
> 
> 
> Some folks simply place the antenna on the floor, which isn't advisable: You want as much separation as possible from any electrical wiring to reduce AC interference.



In most attics you can see if there is any nearby wiring underneath the location you chose.




> Quote:
> You also want the ability to turn the antenna at least a little bit for precise aiming after it's installed.



Which is a lot easier if the antenna is not attached to anything.


----------



## Don_M

*Ken*, a lot of attics in homes on the CO Front Range, where we both live, have blown-in, loose fiber glass or cellulose insulation that just sits on top of the second-floor ceiling joists and drywall. There's frequently no attic floor at all. You can't see the wiring without digging for it.


As you might guess, working in such a space isn't exactly a day in the park.


----------



## avJohnny




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/15359101
> 
> 
> As you might guess, working in such a space isn't exactly a day in the park.



Yes, it's not fun wading through a bunch of insulation, hoping you don't crash through the drywall floor. You have to find the narrow 2x4s by touch, and then, if you're concerned with energy savings, you have shift the insulation around to fill your walking path on your way out. In my last home I added a few outlets and moved some cabling around for the master bedroom system. You literally have to dig out a trench to do that kind of work.


----------



## Ken H




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/15359101
> 
> *Ken*, a lot of attics in homes on the CO Front Range, where we both live, have blown-in, loose fiber glass or cellulose insulation that just sits on top of the second-floor ceiling joists and drywall. There's frequently no attic floor at all. You can't see the wiring without digging for it.
> 
> 
> As you might guess, working in such a space isn't exactly a day in the park.



Not even a little. I would say in those cases mounting an indoor antenna from the top of the structure would be a better idea.


----------



## rthurlow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/15343321
> 
> 
> Hey Rob,
> 
> 
> Go to www.tvfool.com & save your "_post-transition digital_" report. Also, go to www.fmfool.com & post that report as well.



Here you go - thanks! I could believe overload :-(


Rob T


----------



## rthurlow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/15346241
> 
> 
> Your issues are likely the result of too much pre-amp gain rather than too little. ... The only pre-amp sold that fits the bill right now is the Winegard HDP-269.



Interesting - so dropping in a CM-7777/8 might not make sense. I'll look at the 269.

What signals look like issues? Is it down to a certain dBf level, for example?


Thanks,

Rob T


----------



## Don_M

Rob, thanks for the location-specific report. Both TV and FM reports are arranged from strongest station to weakest. The top four, perhaps five, TV stations on the list are candidates with the CM amps, while the AP-8275 is likely to have issues handling the top six. (Two stations within those groups, KPJR and KPXH, aren't on the air yet, AFAIK.)


The calculation starts with the signal strengths in the "Pwr (dBm)" column, as adjusted for DTV, and compares them with the capacity of pre-amps to resist de-sensitizing weak signals (such as KRMA and KUSA in your area), sometimes called "overload." Information on these thresholds is in a chart attached to a Dec. 13 post by holl_ands .


Depending on losses from cable length before the pre-amp, cable type, balun used, etc., and gain from the CM4228, I calculated adjusted thresholds in the range of -43 dBm to -47 dBm for the CM pre-amps, and between -50 dBm and -54 dBm for the AP-8275. The stations with higher (less negative) numbers than those ranges are the potential troublemakers. Thus it's not surprising that gaining KQCK means losing the much-weaker Denver stations.


----------



## lassen




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *avJohnny* /forum/post/15349345
> 
> 
> What antenna would I use in my attic? I'm only interested in main locals. I was thinking the Channel Master 4228...



I used a Terk HDTV-O mounted inside my attic. It's a combination UHF /VHF-hi antenna and gets all the main channels from Lookout Mtn area perfectly (well almost, KRMA is dicey until they fix their transmit tower). I have almost the same TVFool results as you.


The HDTVo package includes an adjustable mount and switchable preamp for about $75 from Amazon. As Ken H noted, it was easiest to mount it hanging down from the attic rafters, then use the adjustments to aim according to TVFool.


----------



## onan38

Hi everyone, I installed a new u100 alliance rotor that my parents have had in the house in a box for years. The rotor is a four wire system (Found the wire online.) The control box died, is there a newer control box out there that will work with a 4 wire rotor.


----------



## DEEPFRINGEGUY

Hi Folks,


I finally finished research, design, procurement, assembly, and installation of my new HD-optimized system. Many thanks to this forum.


I'm hoping that this might help some of the folks out there that are in a similar situation.


It's kind of a high-end system, as I was trying to bring in some pretty distant stations that my old CM-Quantum rig just wasn't capable of; although it was a very good antenna, especially for VHF.


Here's a picture (attached).


I'm in a deep-fringe area here in Northern California and this new rig pulls in 30 stations at the moment (mostly digital, up to 60+ miles). I expect 40+ digital channels when the Sutro-tower stations in S.F. finish moving their antennas up to the top of the tower and all the dust settles.

*COMPONENTS & WEIGHTS:*

TERRESTRIAL DIGITAL 91XG w/HARDWARE - 4.5 lbs.

BLONDER-TONGUE BTY-LP-HB w/HARDWARE- 8.5 lbs.

CM-9521A ROTOR w/HARDWARE - 7.5 lbs.

THRUST-BEARING (TB-105) w/HARDWARE - 2.0 lbs.

TIN-LEE UV-7X COMBINER w/HARDWARE - .25 lb.

RESEARCH-COMMUNICATIONS 9254 PRE-AMP w/HRDWR - .25 lb.

--------------------

23 lbs.


For coax; I went with LMR-400-75 from Times Microwave. Very low-loss coax; Did my own cabling with the TM EZ-400-FM-75 connectors, sealed with dielectric silicone grease and wrapped in coax tape. I bought a few tools to do the job correctly. It's about a 90 ft. run.


I picked up some unused, military-surplus, AIRCRAFT-GRADE ALUMINUM TUBING: 6063-T832 for the mast. Nice and light, very strong. It's up

about 35 ft.


It's a great rig that really pulls in signal well. On the higher-quality HD stations, it looks like I'm watching blue-ray...



- DFGY


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DEEPFRINGEGUY* /forum/post/15395903
> 
> 
> It's kind of a high-end system, as I was trying to bring in some pretty distant stations that my old CM-Quantum rig just wasn't capable of; although it was a very good antenna, especially for VHF.



Nice set-up!! How much difference do you notice on VHF with the Blonder-Tongue antenna? Which Quantum antenna were you using? Any reason you have so much slack between the bearing and the rotor?


Thanks, Glen


----------



## DEEPFRINGEGUY




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/15396004
> 
> 
> Nice set-up!! How much difference do you notice on VHF with the Blonder-Tongue antenna? Which Quantum antenna were you using? Any reason you have so much slack between the bearing and the rotor?
> 
> 
> Thanks, Glen



Thanks Glen,

*Difference in VHF:* Well, you know how it is, there are lots of variables here. It's probably not all due to the antenna, but I can pull in an analog station (KSBW in

Salinas/Monterrey) that is well over 70 miles away; and it's watchable, although with

some snow... The old rig was very good with VHF, but it wouldn't pull this station in.


The BTY is a VHF-high only antenna, by the way. The Quantum was VHF-low and High,

etc. But, post-transition, I'll have no need for VHF-low in my area.

*Which Quantum:* The old rig was a CHANNEL MASTER QUANTUM 1162 (VHF/UHF/FM); 8.5db VHF/9db UHF

W/BUILT-IN 16db VHF-HIGH/23db UHF; It was the largest of it's type that was still UPS shippable...


*Cable Slack:* I guess I just wanted to make sure I had enough... It turns out that because I went so high, I had to attach guy's to the thrust-bearing and that means that the coax will touch the guy's at the top there, when rotated 180 degrees; which I don't need to do too often (there's only one station to the north). So, it actually worked out well. It rotates fine even though the cable does brush up against the top guy's.


- DFGY


----------



## Digital Rules

Thanks DFGY,


Just in case anyone is interested, there is a show of possible interest tonight @ 6:00 eastern time on "THE NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC CHANNEL". It is about an antenna crew working on a 2000' TV tower in South Dakota called "WORLDS TOUGHEST FIXES".

http://channel.nationalgeographic.co...e#200812281800


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DEEPFRINGEGUY* /forum/post/15396938
> 
> 
> The old rig was a CHANNEL MASTER QUANTUM 1162 (VHF/UHF/FM); 8.5db VHF/9db UHF
> 
> W/BUILT-IN 16db VHF-HIGH/23db UHF



Can you still get those cartridges? Back when I did residential, I used to dread being called to service systems with cartridge amplifiers because not only were they more difficult to reliably diagnose, if I thought they were bad then the customer would need to buy a whole new antenna.


You might want to scrounge around to see if you can get the matching terminal board, so that if you ever do have trouble with this amplifier cartridge, you can replace it with the terminator board and use an external preamp from then on.


----------



## ctdish

The most common part to fail used to be the unpolarized capacitor. You could probably get a replacement from an electronics parts supplier.

John



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *onan38* /forum/post/15393641
> 
> 
> Hi everyone, I installed a new u100 alliance rotor that my parents have had in the house in a box for years. The rotor is a four wire system (Found the wire online.) The control box died, is there a newer control box out there that will work with a 4 wire rotor.


----------



## DEEPFRINGEGUY

AntAltMike,


I'm assuming you're referring to the built-in ChannelMaster amp that was in my old Quantum, which I took down, cut up with the sawzall, and placed in the recycle bin last week? Channel Master doesn't make the Quantum anymore; but the amp never failed in 10 years. It was a very good antenna; it just didn't have adequate UHF capability for the post-transition changes.


- DFGY


----------



## Don_M

Does anyone know what typical insertion loss is on a Channel Master Join-Tenna? Here's the situation: All but one of the network-affiliate transmitters hereabouts are within 10 degrees of each other. The lone exception is the Ion affiliate, which is 65 degrees away from the "crowd" on RF channel 43. It's a 1-edge signal, so it won't lock unless the antenna is aimed right at it. When I aim for that station, all other stations lock, but at weakened signal levels close to the cliff. The best cost-effective solution is a second, dedicated UHF antenna. I currently have separate VHF and UHF antennas in the attic on a UVSJ with no amplifier.


Second question: How close is too close for nearby channels with a Join-Tenna? There's a local Class A operation on channel 39 I'd like to continue receiving.


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/15397139
> 
> 
> Thanks DFGY,
> 
> 
> Just in case anyone is interested, there is a show of possible interest tonight @ 6:00 eastern time on "THE NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC CHANNEL". It is about an antenna crew working on a 2000' TV tower in South Dakota called "WORLDS TOUGHEST FIXES".
> 
> http://channel.nationalgeographic.co...e#200812281800



It was first on about a month ago, it is the KDLT tower in SD, the tallest structure on the earth until the skyscraper in Dubai is completed... Very coooooool fix, one of the coolest things that I have watched on tv, I believe they swapped out the digital antenna, because it was at the top of the stack..... Let me know whatcha think!


----------



## ctdish

I have a channel 52 jointenna which I checked out using my antenna as a signal source. The loss for the single passed channel was 5-6 dB. This same loss was seen on the other input for all channels three or more channels away from channel 52. The loss an the all channel input at channel 52 seemed to be 20 dB or more. Channels 49 and 54 were passed on either input with the 6 dB loss so could be view either way.

John



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/15398928
> 
> 
> Does anyone know what typical insertion loss is on a Channel Master Join-Tenna? Here's the situation: All but one of the network-affiliate transmitters hereabouts are within 10 degrees of each other. The lone exception is the Ion affiliate, which is 65 degrees away from the "crowd" on RF channel 43. It's a 1-edge signal, so it won't lock unless the antenna is aimed right at it. When I aim for that station, all other stations lock, but at weakened signal levels close to the cliff. The best cost-effective solution is a second, dedicated UHF antenna. I currently have separate VHF and UHF antennas in the attic on a UVSJ with no amplifier.
> 
> 
> Second question: How close is too close for nearby channels with a Join-Tenna? There's a local Class A operation on channel 39 I'd like to continue receiving.


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/15404322
> 
> 
> I have a channel 52 jointenna which I checked out using my antenna as a signal source....



Thanks for the info, John. It's a big help.


----------



## PCTools

Oftentimes, the single 91XG will outperform a stack. (Based on my testing)


Looks like you are missing the first director on your 91XG.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *goldrich* /forum/post/15287825
> 
> 
> Bill, you should be fine using the CM 7777 with your setup. You are 37 miles from your nearest station. I'm using the 7777 with virtually the same setup you have (pair of Triax Unix 100s instead of the 91XGs, and a single Funke PSP 1922) and I'm 3 - 5.5 miles from my local TV and FM radio towers. I do have a few overload issues with some analog channels, but to date, no noticeable overload issues caused by the 7777 with local or distant digital channels.
> 
> 
> I've attached a pic of my setup, which does include a single 91XG about 2.5 feet below the Triax stack and about 4 feet above the Funke 1922.
> 
> 
> Steve


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/15404322
> 
> 
> I have a channel 52 jointenna which I checked out using my antenna as a signal source. The loss for the single passed channel was 5-6 dB.



It shouldn't be anywhere near that much. I measured several a few years ago, and I'm sure the bandpass channel signal loss was no more than 2dB on any of them.


FWIW, channel 52 is right around the "transition point" between the model 2 and model 3 units. I think one is tunable up to 49 and the other starts at 50, and I think that a few years before that, Channel Master used to use the model 2 up to channel 50 and the model 3 started at 51.


What do you have for a signal meter? The UHF Jointennas, unlike the VHFs, have two tunable slugs in them: one for the bandpass and one for the band rejection. I suspect that if you "tweaked" them, you could get a thru loss of a lot less than 6 dB.


----------



## ctdish

I took a look at the jointenna and my aging memory needs correction, it is a channel 51 with 3 at the end of the model number. The signal sources were recieved signals from my antenna amd measurement was done using a Tektronix 451 spectrum analyzer. I also checked out an upper VHF jointenna it seemed to have a dB or two less loss but was still around 4 dB. Its notch was not as wide as a digital TV channel with over half of the channel passing intact. By comparision I have a VHF combiner from Tinlee and with my test set up I can see no loss on passed channels.

John


----------



## Falcon_77

I have a channel 10 jointenna that we checked out recently (thanks, ctdish). The insertion loss was more than I expected on the "passed" channel (~4dB) and when we reversed it, the notch was rather sharp (not wide enough for the full channel). I don't plan on recommending these anymore after looking at its performance on the spectrum analyzer.


If WPRI and WNAC are granted 30kW on 12 and 13, I will probably have to get a good combiner. If they are not granted the power increase, it may not be worth my while as WPRI is so weak right now.


I have another jointenna in CA, for 31, but don't have a spectrum analyzer. However, I didn't notice much of a change in KTLA when I hooked it up, but then a 20dB attenuator hardly affects it as well (it is very strong).


----------



## Morpheus_Rising




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Junglerock* /forum/post/13888167
> 
> 
> From post #962
> 
> 
> Well... exactly 1 month later I've got my antenna's up. The TB-105 bearing from Warren Electronics is NOT high quality. There is about 1/4" play within the bearing. The center of the bearing has flash in it which has to be sanded off if you intend to use 1 1/2" mast. I ended up buying a 10' piece of electrical conduit and cutting it in half. (seems to be stout enough)
> 
> 
> The biggest problem is that the bearing sticks out from the mast somewhere between 1/4' and 1/2 " farther than the rotor which puts a serious bind on the rotor. I ended up having to make spacers to make the rotor match the bearing. The rotor works, but still has a little bind in it. When I have a chance to get back on the roof, I will further "tweak" the "spacers".
> 
> 
> The good news is I am extremely pleased with the 91XG and a YA 1713 antenna's. I can now get a solid lock on KXII DT-20 (12) that tvfool shows to have a signal of -126.1 (2 edge) at 99.5 miles.




I haven't been here in awhile and did some catching up. This is exactly what happened to me. My first antenna installer did a poor job of the installation and my antennas came crashing down a year later. I got new antennas and a new antenna mast but I has decided to get the TB-105 bearing (I actually got 2 - 1 to use and 1 for a spare). just like you, I had to sand down the interior in order for the antenna mast to slide through. I got a second installer to put up the new antennas, and just like you - we found that the TB-105 bearing was about 1/4" off and when you rotated the antennas, that I had binding problem. Well, this set up lasted about something like 3-6 months, when the antennas were knocked down again (the antennas were not damaged this time). The installer then moved the rotor inside the tower between the 2 traingle plates and used a bearing from Wade (?) - this 3rd configuration is the best and works great for me.


I'm now stuck with 2 TB-105 bearings that are useless, what a waste of money.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/15404847
> 
> 
> Oftentimes, the single 91XG will outperform a stack. (Based on my testing)
> 
> 
> Looks like you are missing the first director on your 91XG.



On occasion, I have found the same to be true. Sometimes the single antenna will outperform the stack, but not very often. For local reception, the single might be a better performer because the azimuth reading is not as critical. But if attempting to tame multipath and/or receive distant stations, the stack will generally deliver better results. Here are some examples I was able to capture this morning.
http://www.wtfda.info/showpost.php?p=6715&postcount=13 


And, yes, the first director on my 91XG is missing. Last year this antenna was mounted on a mast instead of a tower and was fairly close to a number of tree limbs. During a thunderstorm last year, a tree limb swiped the front of the antenna and broke it off. I have the two pieces but to date I haven't repaired it.


Steve


----------



## rabbit73

(I first posted this on another thread, but thought I should also post it here because it might help a few others.)


I have been making measurements of digital signals with my Sadelco 719E signal level meter (SLM) for about a year. Even though it is calibrated for peak reading of analog signals, I have found that it is very useful for making _comparative_ measurements of antennas and digital signals:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1084674 


I would like to have a new SLM that is designed for digital signals, but it is not now in the budget. But what about the people that don't have either? I keep thinking of a poster who lived close to the transmitter towers and had an attic antenna. He was having trouble receiving signals. Was it that the signals were so strong they were causing overload because they only had to go thru wooden siding or were they too weak because they were blocked by aluminum siding or an aluminum foil vapor barrier? I made some signal measurements with my Apex DT502 to see how it would do as a SLM. After the antenna, I used a switched attenuator (actually 2 in series) with 3dB steps (as in the Kelvin link in my signature) going to a splitter and then to the DT502 and the SLM; first in a strong signal location:
Code:


Code:


Attenuator    Quality    Strength    dBmV       dBm     
   dB            %           %

   0            100         84       +12.5      -36.3
   3            100         84       +9         -39.8
   6            100         83       +6.1       -42.7
   9            100         83       +2.9       -45.9
  12            100         83       +1.4       -47.4
  15            100         81       -2         -50.8
  18            100         78       -4.9       -53.7
  21            100         74       -8.5       -57.3
  24            100         69       -12        -60.8
  27            100         65       -15        -63.8
  30            100         61       -18.5      -67.3
  33            100         59       -20.5      -69.3
  36            100         54       -24        -72.8
  39            100         51       -27        -75.8
  42            100         46       -30        -78.8

I next added a preamp to simulate a very strong signal bringing it up to +36 dBmV, but the DT502 signal strength never went any higher than 84%. I was also looking for signs of overload, but didn't see any. I would have to drive about 100 miles round trip to pick up an extremely strong signal, but it doesn't seem worth the trouble right now. The ultimate test of a tuner would be to see how it would handle a very weak signal when other very strong signals are on the band. That's for another day.


and then in a weak signal location:
Code:


Code:


Attenuator    Quality    Strength    dBmV       dBm     
   dB            %           %
   0            100         59       -18.3      -67.1
   3            100         55       -21.8      -70.6
   6            100         50       -25.0      -73.8
   9            100         44       -29.0      -77.8
  12            100         42       
  15             67         33        
  18             30         18
  21              0          0   Dropout

I was able to test a 2nd DT502, and the results were similar: It maxed out at 87% strength at +2.2 dBmV with an increasing signal, and held 100% quality down to 51% strength just below -30 dBmV with a decreasing signal.


It looks like the DT502 can be used as a SLM. Its tuner is even more sensitive than my SLM.

*CAUTION*: As Trip correctly pointed out to me, this CECB doesn't allow you to add other channels after the scan. See wiki other features note code "-N" of CECB comparisons:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_CECB_units


----------



## bozey45

I too was unable to use the single TB-105 I ordered so since my telescoping mast had no guy wire rings included with it I used the TB-105 to connect the guy wires---turned out to be the perfect use for it. Was originally going to use two 5-foot masts for my antennas with the TB-105 as the support but decided to use one 5-footer instead and so the TB-105 is now the guy ring.


----------



## 300ohm

I have an Sansonic FT300A that also has separate signal quality and signal strength meters. Unlike your examples above, the signal quality varies a lot more, and can sometimes be less than half of signal strength. I wonder what that signifies ?


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15420401
> 
> 
> I have an Sansonic FT300A that also has separate signal quality and signal strength meters. Unlike your examples above, the signal quality varies a lot more, and can sometimes be less than half of signal strength. I wonder what that signifies ?



At my location the signal quality also varies a lot because my antenna is aimed across a well-traveled street which causes a lot of reflections from the tops of the cars when they pass by. But as long as the signal is strong, I don't see any change on the monitor. I do notice a change in PQ on my marginal channel which is why I went across the road to make the weak signal measurements without the multipath interference from the cars.


The quality bar is usually related to bit error rate/ratio (BER). Each manufacturer gets to decide what percentage equals what level of error rate. It would be necessary to connect the FT300A and the DT502 to a splitter to see how they each react to changes in the signal as the attenuation is increased. The ideal test setup would be a 4way splitter (with DA if necessary) connected to the 2 boxes, a signal level meter, and a BER meter. This would tell you everything you would want to know about the relationship between the 2 bars on each box, the signal level, and the BER.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IDRick* /forum/post/15431676
> 
> 
> While I certainly agree that there are far better tools for measurement, the CECB's can be very useful for finetuning antenna location. In my case, I have broadcast towers in two directions (200 and 270 degrees). My DIY 4-bay does a nice job of receiving signal from both directions with proper placement in the attic. The APEX 502 was invaluable for optimizing signal strength of my two lowest channels (1 at 270 and 1 at 200 degrees) and deciding final antenna location/orientation.
> 
> 
> Signal quality readings from the APEX also had practical application. My antenna is connected to two tvs and a computer capture card. Anything less than 100 on signal quality scale results in audio and video dropouts with the capture card. I get marvelous recordings with proper placement of the antenna (optimized signal strength and signal quality = 100). I'm sure top quality equipment could fine tune my setup even further. I'm satisfied with a $20 tool versus a several hundred dollar tool, especially for a one time use.



Downunder in .au land, they have a good understanding of the importance signal quality, BER, and MER:
http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=18627 see post #11
http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?s...=360&start=360 #366 & 369
http://www.hillsantenna.com.au/arbitrage/pages/61 BER
http://www.hillsantenna.com.au/arbitrage/pages/60 MER
http://users.tpg.com.au/bitek500/Dow...M%20instal.pdf p4 DVB-T digital cliff
http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/papers/.../crn-dvbtm.pdf ATSC vs DVB-T, excellent charts on p3
http://www.wowvision.tv/signal_strength_meters_BER.htm Signal strength meters and BER


The factors that reduce signal quality and cause a higher BER are:


1. Improper signal level: A weak signal will cause a poor signal-to-noise ratio; a signal that is too strong can overload a tuner or preamp. A nearby FM transmitter can also cause overload, which would require an FM trap.

2. Reflections from multipath problems.

3. Impulse noise in the reception area.


I don't know what kind of signals you have but I suspect that they are affected by 1. and 2.


When I was testing the DT502 with my CM4221 antenna on my marginal signal (13.1 on RF41) back at my apartment, I got:

Signal Quality 60%

Signal Strength 55%


I had aimed the antenna with my SLM, but when I rotated the 4221 slightly to the right I got:

Signal Quality 100%

Signal Strength 56%
*Note the BIG change in signal quality with only a slight change in signal strength.*


It seems that the signal quality indication is a *more sensitive aiming tool* than signal strength, because *it shows the increase in BER from multipath reflections*. In my situation the BER is affected by the weak signal, the fixed multipath reflections, and the changing multipath reflections (Which shows the need for the new ATSC M/H standard).


----------



## hdtvluvr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *samstom* /forum/post/15427987
> 
> 
> Hi Guys,
> 
> I am pretty bad with my geography and I need a favor here. Can anyone help me with the interpretations and tell me if they are situated within 15 degrees of each other?
> 
> 
> Transmitter A is located at 01° 21' 07"N, 103° 45' 57"E while
> 
> Transmitter B is located at 01° 36' 12"N, 103° 32' 50"E
> 
> 
> Do u think the transmitters are within the beamwidth of channelmaster 4228? And if I decide to get 4228, can it receive signals from both transmitters say if I point it towards that single direction?
> 
> 
> Thanks for helping me out, have a wonderful year ahead!
> 
> 
> regards
> 
> samstom



It depends on where you are in relation to the transmitters in order to say whether they are within 15 degrees of each other. If you are exactly between them then they will be 180 degrees apart. The further away you are from them, then the closer together they will appear to be.


Go to TVfool.com, enter your address and it will tell you the degrees the towers are from you. Then if the values are within 15 they will be within 15 degrees of each other.


While at TVfool, look at the post-transition chart. The 4228 is designed for channels above 14 while some users claim success with channels 12 & 13. It will be important to know the channels the towers are transmitting on post-transition to determine if the 4228 is your best option. Post the TVfool results here and others will assist you with an antenna selection/options.


----------



## ctdish

Depending on the sign of the Longitude those locations are either in Singapore or in the Pacific Ocean West of Equador.

John


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *samstom* /forum/post/15427987
> 
> 
> Hi Guys,
> 
> I am pretty bad with my geography and I need a favor here. Can anyone help me...



To find the latitude and longitude using tvfool, click on the line that contains the callsign of the transmitter and up will come another page giving transmitter ERP and the coordinates. When I click on the WREG-DT post transition line in the Memphis table I get Coordinates: 35.181200 -89.832308.


You can also go to Tiger Map Server Browser at:
http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/mapbrowse-tbl to find the coordinates.

For example, it gives (Centered at Lat: 35.10560 Lon: -90.00699) for Memphis. Note the all important minus sign before the 90.


To answer your original question *hdtvluvr* has given you good advice:

Go to www.tvfool.com , enter your address and it will tell you the degrees the towers are from you.


----------



## hdtvluvr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *samstom* /forum/post/15429990
> 
> 
> Guys,
> 
> Well, I am currently working in Singapore and sites like Tiger Map Server Browser or tvfool do not work for me.
> 
> 
> I just need to know if the transmitters are pretty close to each other and decide if I want the 4228 and my gf from Michigan can have it shipped to me. I'll see if I can use google earth to plot out a map and maybe the kind folks here can help me out.



In that case, use google earth to pinpoint the towers. Transfer those points to a map of the area that also includes your location. Draw a straight line from your location to each of the tower locations. You can then use a protractor and measure the angle. You can print a protractor from here:

Protractor


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *samstom* /forum/post/15429990
> 
> 
> Guys,
> 
> Well, I am currently working in Singapore and sites like Tiger Map Server Browser or tvfool do not work for me.
> 
> 
> I just need to know if the transmitters are pretty close to each other.



It depends on your location. Determine your own location and use this tool:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/audio/bickel/distance.html 


Do that for each transmitter, determine the angle between them, and then the antenna choice will be much clearer. There are VHF channels in Singapore, so the UHF only 4228 may not be the best choice.


The original transmitters in Singapore are on a hill toward the north, near the WW II memorial. Others are on high rise buildings near Orchard Street.


----------



## ctdish

Those two locations are seperated by about 23 miles.

John


----------



## RickGA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DEEPFRINGEGUY* /forum/post/15395903
> 
> 
> I finally finished research, design, procurement, assembly, and installation of my new HD-optimized system. Many thanks to this forum.



Hi, DFGY. I sent you a PM. I am very interested in your experience with Research Communications. I live in a rural area where most of the towers are ~75 miles away. Fortunately, the antennas of those stations are ~1,500+ feet above the ground. My closet DMA is 60 miles. Unfortunately, its tv stations have much shorter towers, so their signals are somewhat weaker by the time they reach me. I need all the dB's I can squeeze out of my installation.


I look forward to your response to my PM.


As for any suggestions from other members, it would be greatly appreciated. I plan to have SEPARATE INSTALLATIONS for VHF (Funke PSP 1922 on a 40' mast) and UHF (Antennas Direct 91-XG on a 50' mast). Channel Master has discontiniued the UHF-only version of their pre-amps. Winegard's model has a slgihtly higher noise spec. I am considering a Research Communications model. Please see the attached TVFool png files. I split the difference in elevation & used 45' for my antenna height. I currently use a DB-8 for UHF (which may be having issues with multi-path from nearby trees) and a Winegard 7084 for VHF, combined with a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp with an elevation of 34'. Due to wind damage, last year, the current mast has a 3 to 5 degree tilt downward. Yeah, I know, that's certainly not a good thing. I can use help with planning my new installation(s). At least knowing I'm on the right track will help.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/15406248
> 
> 
> I took a look at the jointenna and my aging memory needs correction, it is a channel 51 with 3 at the end of the model number. The signal sources were recieved signals from my antenna amd measurement was done using a Tektronix 451 spectrum analyzer. I also checked out an upper VHF jointenna it seemed to have a dB or two less loss but was still around 4 dB. Its notch was not as wide as a digital TV channel with over half of the channel passing intact.



I just checked a channel 41 Joinenna and it lost 2.0 to 2.1 dBmV on its bandpass filter path, measured using an Applied Instruments white noise generator (NS-1?) and a Blonder Tongue BTPDA-4.


I wouldn't be averse to using a Jointenna just because it didn't pass a perfect plateau. Digital 8VSB signals are extremely robust, and rolling off a few dB at the channel edges will ordinarily have no deliterious effect on the processing of a healthy channel signal.


The real loser Jointenna products, which have been discontinued, were the lowband models. Some of them had less than ten dB of out-of-band rejection.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *samstom* /forum/post/15427987
> 
> 
> Hi Guys,
> 
> I am pretty bad with my geography and I need a favor here. Can anyone help me with the interpretations and tell me if they are situated within 15 degrees of each other?
> 
> 
> Transmitter A is located at 01° 21' 07"N, 103° 45' 57"E while
> 
> Transmitter B is located at 01° 36' 12"N, 103° 32' 50"E
> 
> 
> Do u think the transmitters are within the beamwidth of channelmaster 4228? And if I decide to get 4228, can it receive signals from both transmitters say if I point it towards that single direction?
> 
> 
> Thanks for helping me out, have a wonderful year ahead!
> 
> 
> regards
> 
> samstom



You need to provide YOUR location as well....

You might find the following on-line calculator to be useful:
http://www.movable-type.co.uk/scripts/latlong.html 


BTW: The FREE downloadable Radio Mobile program is designed for

predicting signal strength (like tvfool), including when blocked by terrain:
http://www.cplus.org/rmw/english1.html 
http://www.pizon.org/radio-mobile-tutorial/index.html 

Here is how I set it up:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST27302 

Archiving deletes the zip files...but they won't help you anyway.

It AUTOMATICALLY downloads low-rez SRTM-3 topographic files and there is a link

to download hi-rez SRTM-1 files.


Here are some R-M examples:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=111 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=2828 
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST36187


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I have attached 2 files. Point B is 10 miles from me while Point A is 30 miles from me. The landscape of Singapore is flat but there are a lot of tall buildings on the island so reception tends to be a bit shaky. I live pretty high up , no problems for me, I receive rather clear signals, no grains, with my 4221 other than multiple ghosts towards the right of my TV screen after the 50 storey units are built.



The 4221 you now have has plenty of gain for 10 and 30 miles. Have you tried turning the antenna away from the building to get rid of the ghosts ?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *samstom* /forum/post/15437852
> 
> 
> I hope my mapping helps!



It helps alot. I had assumed that you wanted only Singapore stations. Now I see that you are trying for Malaysia as well.


The two sites that you want are in line such that a 4228 will work. Yet, the 4228 is a UHF antenna. There are VHF stations at site A, I don't know about site B.


Attached is a picture that I took of the two TCS VHF transmitters at site A.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *samstom* /forum/post/15451639
> 
> 
> How did u get the photos from inside?



Thanks for reminding me of the name of the Hill.


I toured the transmitter building during a consulting contract for TCS.


The station link that you provided is very interesting!


----------



## holl_ands

Preparing for 17Feb, I analyzed High-Performance (i.e. not small) DIY

Zig-Zag Hi-VHF Band Antennas (such as would be installed in an ATTIC).

See post in DIY VHF Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=15451710 


Although I've read many NEC Sim antenna studies over the years,

this the first time I've had time to analyze what I built in my parents attic

some 40-years ago....comments would be appreciated....


======================================

PS: I also confirmed W-G YA-1713 Hi-VHF Antenna NEC Sim results posted on HDTVPRIMER wherein gain across Ch13 is dropping precipitously:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/COMPARING.html 

Presuming we can believe what we THINK we are modeling in NEC Sim....


I'm still looking at how to simulate the 50pF capacitor on the output

of my antenna's 1:1 Balun, which seems to make the situation even

worse....any suggestions???

And what value should be used for Crossover Transmission Line

Impedance...and more importantly, Why??? The antenna impedance is all over the

place in the YA-1713, and Sweeping the impedance value doesn't yield a clear "best".


----------



## d510d180

About ghosting from multipath signal reception:


Assuming SD broadcast in NTSC, i.e. 525 lines 29.94 times per seconds (or exactly 15734 Hz). That is 63.56us per line, of which 52.66us are actually the visible video.
http://www.ntsc-tv.com/images/tv/sync-wf.gif 


Assuming the visible image is 640 pixels wide (although this is not digital TV),

1 pixel is 1/640 of the image width, i.e. 1 pixel is ~82.28ns long.

That is about 24.7 meters (81 feet) at the speed of light.


If you had a ghost image 5% of the image width (not your 16:9 screen but the 4:3 screen), you would be victim of a second signal path that has travelled an extra 790 meters (0.49 miles). Every 1% of ghosting is roughly 0.1 mile at light speed (0.981 mile, 158 meters, or 518 feet).


When you have very thin ghost image, it may be explained by nearby buildings reflection.

When you have a largely offset ghost image, you are more likely victim of a geographical reflection, like a mountain side or diffraction from a mountain top.


You can ignore people telling you to move your antenna a few dozen feet away from walls or buildings in order to eliminate 'visible' ghost image. However, that recommendation stands when you are having a bad reception but don't quite know why. Nanoseconds or less order ghosting can mess up ntsc colors, luminance or audio by cancelling/interfering with any of those signals inside the 6 Mhz channel, while atsc DTV could have a high error rate for similar reasons (hence the upcoming 6th generation of atsc decoding that can deal with multipath more efficiently).


----------



## rthurlow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/15366205
> 
> 
> Rob, thanks for the location-specific report. Both TV and FM reports are arranged from strongest station to weakest. The top four, perhaps five, TV stations on the list are candidates with the CM amps, while the AP-8275 is likely to have issues handling the top six.



Hi Don,


Another question about something I'm seeing. I have two receivers, a Dish 942 and a Directv Tivo HR10-250, and they behave differently on some channels. I often can't get KGWN Cheyenne on the HR10-250, but it's usually fine on the Dish. Since I'm getting KGWN from the back of my CM-4228 and the aim is a bit wrong, I have explained this as simple multipath. I know the HR10-250 is older and likely to not handle multipath as well as the Dish unit. But something else occured to me today, related to more overload.


The channels which show the most variance between boxes are the ones closest to strong signals. I can get KMGH 7.1 (66%) and KGWN 5.1 (68%) fine on my Dish unit, and not at all on my HR10-250. (Nothing gets KUSA right now, though.) RF 29 (KDEN-DT) booms in at near 100% on both boxes, right next to RF 30 (KGWN). And RF 15 (KTFD-DT) is similar, and close to both RF 16 and 17 (KUSA and KMGH). Would a hypothesis that overload from these signals resembles multipath on nearby channels make sense? That would explain why otherwise-good reception conditions would go with a big variance between boxes. It doesn't affect channels further away - KRMA at RF 18 and KWGN at RF 32 are just fine, as usual. The HR10-250 actually does well with weak, clean signals - it gets 40.1 Daystar better than the Dish unit does.


BTW, that HDP-269 is on the way, and should be here by the end of the week  My hypothesis makes me more optimistic that it will solve a problem for me.


Rob T


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rthurlow* /forum/post/15454830
> 
> 
> Would a hypothesis that overload from these signals resembles multipath on nearby channels make sense?



The sources of overload and multipath are different, but because both involve signal distortion, the end result is the same -- poor or no reception. Multipath "confuses" the tuner with signals arriving at slightly different times (we're talking nanoseconds here) because of reflections. "Overload," which occurs in a pre-amp, tuner or both, distorts the signal waveform such that the tuner stumbles in the decoding process. It's a little bit like someone trying to get 50 watts' worth of music out of a 10-watt stereo: It sounds flat-out terrible thanks to the great amount of distortion involved.


Adjacent-channel interference isn't as much of an issue in DTV as it was in analog as long as transmitter spacing considerations are taken into account. For now, Denver actually has five adjacent DTV channels, and there are seven in a row if you count the analogs:


KTFD-TV 14

KTFD-DT 15 (14.1)

KUSA-DT 16 (9.x)

KMGH-DT 17 (7.x)

KRMA-DT 18 (6.x)

KTVD-DT 19 (20.1)

KTVD-TV 20


Of course, analog broadcasting on both 14 and 20 goes away in six weeks, and 16 and 17 will be vacated when KUSA and KMGH go back to VHF-high next month. That might not last forever, though: Syncom Media Group has dibs on channel 16 for a low-power digital once it's vacant, and KMGH owner McGraw-Hill has retained the right to do the same on channel 17.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *d510d180* /forum/post/15454600
> 
> 
> ...If you had a ghost image 5% of the image width (not your 16:9 screen but the 4:3 screen), you would be victim of a second signal path that has travelled an extra 790 meters (0.49 miles). Every 1% of ghosting is roughly 0.1 mile at light speed (0.981 mile, 158 meters, or 518 feet)...



Frank Baylin's late 1980s book on Satellite TV has a chart in it that shows how many inches of horizontal ghost displacement on different, common sized CRT screens converts to how much extra distance that the multipath signal traveled. From that, you can generate an ellipse and then intersect that with the direction from which the ghost signal is coming and that will be the location of the reflecting object.


I used that methodology to determine that Byrd Stadium in College Park, MD was the reflecting object, even though I could not see the stadium because of the vegetation. I then moved the mast about a hundred feet closer to the TV transmitters and that location was clear of most of the reflection.


I could do that because I had the budget to work with, since that antenna sourced a 400 drop MATV system. For most of you, the best you can do to mitigate a ghost is to rotate your antenna so that the undesired signal component falls in an antenna reception "null". Good luck doing that when the analog signals are gone.


----------



## bhlonewolf

Hey folks,


Pretty new to OTA and just wondering a few things about optimizing my setup.


I put a CM4228HD in my attic, and after dialing it in I can get all my locals great (Greensboro, NC) plus Roanoke, VA. The transmitters locally are south of me, but pointing it north let me pull in Roanoke and maintains great signal strength for the locals (using my Mits TV to measure, not sure how good of a measure that is).


When setting up, I routed it directly to the TV for my readings. Next I wanted to split it for the other TVs in the house. Signal seemed great from the ANT to the TV (each run is about 50'), I figure no preamp is necessary. So I hooked all of the rooms that are homerun to a Antronix ARA4-8 (4 way, 8 db gain) powered amp (previously used for the cable).


Rechecked the signal strength, all seemed good. So up till this point, no problem.


In one room, I had wanted to split the signal again, one for my DirecTv AM21 (which internally splits it again, but that's besides the point as I didn't get that far), the other leg to the TV. I checked the TV, and lost a bunch of channels. So clearly, splitting it again is too weak. (As it turns out, the AM21 is just fine splitting it internally as long as it is fed directly from the ARA4-8.)


I was really thinking that a decent signal into the ARA4-8 would be fine to split again given the gain. Some of my channels are near 100% signal strength so I'm assuming a preamp is out? Any tips on how to deliver a better signal throughout the house so it can withstand another split? Or is it the best I can do OTA in the attic?


Thx for the advice!


----------



## Don_M

Quote:

Originally Posted by *bhlonewolf* 
I was really thinking that a decent signal into the ARA4-8 would be fine to split again given the gain. Some of my channels are near 100% signal strength so I'm assuming a preamp is out? Any tips on how to deliver a better signal throughout the house so it can withstand another split?
Run individual cables directly from the distribution amp's ports to each TV or STB. That second splitter is apparently chewing up the gain from the amp, and maybe then some. Home runs from a single split point are the best workaround for issues like these. Also, try to get the amp as close to the antenna as you can, because the cable between the two system components loses signal at the rate of roughly 1.5 dB for every 20 feet in the UHF band.


A pre-amp is not a good idea in addition to the distribution amp based on what you said about high signal strengths from some channels. Together, they would likely result in tuner overload at one or more of the receivers, causing loss of more channels.


I looked up the specs on the ARA4-8, attached below, and you won't find a better performer among pre-amps than what you have now. (Rarely does one see such a wealth of information in a spec sheet, always a solid hint of a good product.)

 

ARA_Amplifiers.pdf 444.9580078125k . file


----------



## bhlonewolf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/15503080
> 
> 
> Run individual cables directly from the distribution amp's ports to each TV or STB. That second splitter is apparently chewing up the gain from the amp, and maybe then some. Home runs from a single split point are the best workaround for issues like these. Also, try to get the amp as close to the antenna as you can, because the cable between the two system components loses signal at the rate of roughly 1.5 dB for every 20 feet in the UHF band.
> 
> 
> A pre-amp is not a good idea in addition to the distribution amp based on what you said about high signal strengths from some channels. Together, they would likely result in tuner overload at one or more of the receivers, causing loss of more channels.
> 
> 
> I looked up the specs on the ARA4-8, attached below, and you won't find a better performer among pre-amps than what you have now. (Rarely does one see such a wealth of information in a spec sheet, always a solid hint of a good product.)



Thanks Don! Very helpful feedback. Sounds like things are reasonably as best as I can get them as is. That loss-rate of 1.5db per 20 feet is much higher than I would've guessed. The amp is within 6 feet of the antenna, but the runs from the amp are fairly long (50 feet, on average).


I'll keep everything as a home run. I've seen various posts regarding signal strength vs signal quality. To me it seems surprising that a reasonably strong signal (say, 75-80%) drops almost completely with a splitter, but probably not worth the effort to dig into it (I tried 2 different splitters, too, just to see if it was the splitter -- same effect.) Thx again!


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> I'm still looking at how to simulate the 50pF capacitor on the output
> 
> of my antenna's 1:1 Balun, which seems to make the situation even
> 
> worse....any suggestions???



It's just a small increase in insertion loss, and shouldn't affect the modeling in any significant way.



> Quote:
> And what value should be used for Crossover Transmission Line
> 
> Impedance...



The crossover transmission line impedence is determined by the geometry of the transmission line -- the radius of the two conductors and the distance between them.


----------



## Fused

Is there an antenna that will give me better UHF performance in my attic than a Winegard HD-7084P?


I currently have this antenna with a Winegard AP-8700 preamp in my attic.


Using a Zenith DTT901, I found that I had a 20-33% signal strength on all of the UHF channels I want to receive, which isn't enough to get a lock (TV fool map is attached with the channels I want circled in red). I do have at least some signal on all channels I want to receive.


Is there something else I can add in my attic that will give me a better UHF signal than the 7084P? Maybe a CM 4228 with 7777 preamp? I am ok with spending whatever here if I can keep it in the attic.


My other option is to install a Winegard Square Shooter on the roof, is this a better idea?


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Fused* /forum/post/15508040
> 
> 
> Is there an antenna that will give me better UHF performance in my attic than a Winegard HD-7084P?
> 
> 
> I currently have this antenna with a Winegard AP-8700 preamp in my attic.
> 
> 
> Using a Zenith DTT901, I found that I had a 20-33% signal strength on all of the UHF channels I want to receive, which isn't enough to get a lock (TV fool map is attached with the channels I want circled in red). I do have at least some signal on all channels I want to receive.
> 
> 
> Is there something else I can add in my attic that will give me a better UHF signal than the 7084P? Maybe a CM 4228 with 7777 preamp? I am ok with spending whatever here if I can keep it in the attic.
> 
> 
> My other option is to install a Winegard Square Shooter on the roof, is this a better idea?



There is no way that you can mount it outdoors? That may make the difference, because of the height difference, plus the getting rid of the loss due to the attic??


----------



## Fused




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* /forum/post/15509156
> 
> 
> There is no way that you can mount it outdoors? That may make the difference, because of the height difference, plus the getting rid of the loss due to the attic??



Due to spousal constraints a roof mount would have to be the last option







. My order of preference would be:


1. CM 4228 in attic.

2. Square shooter on roof.

3. CM 4228 on roof.


I'm just not sure if I'm wasting time trying to put something like the CM 4228 in the attic.


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Fused* /forum/post/15508040
> 
> 
> My other option is to install a Winegard Square Shooter on the roof, is this a better idea?



No, it isn't. The SS is not nearly as good a performer as what you have now.


The pre-amp may be overloading with KUTH so close by; its signal is _thousands_ of times stronger than the strongest desired station. Try taking the amp out, including the power inserter, and run the downlead directly from the antenna to the CECB to see what happens.


I'm with the previous poster: The 7084 probably needs to go outside, and up high. Noise margins that low (in the "NM dB" column) usually rule out an attic antenna, regardless of model. For reference: Under ideal circumstances, NMs no lower than 15-20 dB are typically necessary for successful attic installations. The threshold is even higher in situations like yours where there is no line of sight. (That's what "1-edge" and "2-edge" mean.)


----------



## Fused

Rather than moving the 7084, could I use a CM 4228 mounted outside? The 4228 will be an easier sell to the spouse, and the 7084 was hard enough to get in the attic--not sure I can even get it out!











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/15510624
> 
> 
> The pre-amp may be overloading with KUTH so close by; its signal is _thousands_ of times stronger than the strongest desired station.



Thanks for the tip, I'll try this.


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Fused* /forum/post/15510803
> 
> 
> Rather than moving the 7084, could I use a CM 4228 mounted outside?



Sure. It's got better UHF gain than the 7084 and should be adequate for receiving Fox 13.1 from outdoors after the transition. Be aware that it's a fairly heavy antenna, so if you get lots of high winds, be sure to mount it on a steel mast and sturdy, well-anchored mounting brackets.


Forgot about those wide elements on the 7084. Yah, it would be a challenge to pull it out of most attics without damage.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Its time for another round of Name That Antenna!


----------



## bhlonewolf

Out of curiosity, does anyone (or is it feasible) mount an antenna such as the CM4228 (that's fairly flat) parallel with the roof, much like a solar panel?


I'm happy with my reception in the attic so have no plans to change, but just curious. My roof pitch is incredibly high, and having such an option would meet WAF.


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bhlonewolf* /forum/post/15511713
> 
> 
> Out of curiosity, does anyone (or is it feasible) mount an antenna such as the CM4228 (that's fairly flat) parallel with the roof, much like a solar panel?
> 
> 
> I'm happy with my reception in the attic so have no plans to change, but just curious. My roof pitch is incredibly high, and having such an option would meet WAF.



There are smaller antennas that can mount along a rake or ridge of the house, depends on what you need for your location...


Depending on where you live, it could also get buried in snow and not preform at ALL in the winter, in theory, a 4228 mounted that way could work, it would prolly make a little gain loss, or in some cases, tipping back can increase signal.....


Other then those thoughts, I have not seen antenna such as you describe....


----------



## videobruce

It seems everyone here is preamp happy, but I will standby what I consider the best 'amp' available, the _*Winegard DA-1018*_.

Slight problem is it was discontinued some time ago and it very hard to find. BUT, someone on flea-bay has four of them for sale for $40 each (buy it now). Item #220342565969


I would get a couple, but I already have two spares for backup.










1. No brick. AC line cord,

2. Used indoors where you can get at it,

3. High overload capibility unlike preamps that don't have any 'headroom' at all,

4. US made,

5. Aluminum case doubles as the heatsink.


There is a higher gain version of this and also two newer, less expensive models that appear to have identical circuit boards.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Out of curiosity, does anyone (or is it feasible) mount an antenna such as the CM4228 (that's fairly flat) parallel with the roof, much like a solar panel?



It would still work, but like noted, youll lose some gain.



> Quote:
> Its time for another round of Name That Antenna!



Heh, it would be better if we had a picture of it fully assembled and right side up. Do you know if its North American or European ?


It looks like that antenna is skewed towards the high uhf channels, 52 - 83, soon to be completely out of date.


----------



## nybbler

Wade-Dehli HD-2500?


----------



## robwms63

I have an antenna on the roof. I think it's a ChannelMaster, it's huge. I am splitting the signal and sending it 2 places. My most desired channel, KCET HD, comes in @ ~60 and so goes in and out a bit. My problem is this: I am only a few miles from the transmission station in Pasadena, but there are trees on my lot and a hill in the way. Ironically, I have an indoor antenna that does get KCET HD, but it's in the other room and it doesn't get a lot of the other channels.


Any advice appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *robwms63* /forum/post/15532182
> 
> 
> I have an antenna on the roof. I think it's a ChannelMaster, it's huge. I am splitting the signal and sending it 2 places. My most desired channel, KCET HD, comes in @ ~60 and so goes in and out a bit. My problem is this: I am only a few miles from the transmission station in Pasadena, but there are trees on my lot and a hill in the way. Ironically, I have an indoor antenna that does get KCET HD, but it's in the other room and it doesn't get a lot of the other channels.
> 
> 
> Any advice appreciated. Thanks.



Can you post your tvfool results? Also, any chance you know the model of the antenna or can post pictures?


----------



## ciocci

I have a Samsung plasma tv and receive broadcasts using an OTA antenna. I use one antenna, amplifier and a rotator to align with two different transmitters approximately 60 degrees apart. I receive multiple channels both UHF and VHF from both(Phoenix and Tucson). The problem is I have to memorize channels each time I change the antenna angle. This Samsung does not allow the manual addition of channels. I do not want to memorize each time, so I have two thoughts about circumventing this problem; first, two antennas, each pointing at a different transmitter, or second, placing an HDTV tuner before the Samsung in the current configuration. The tuner must allow the manual addition of channels. Thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated.


----------



## DrDon

Always do the cheapest thing first. How far are you from each set of transmitters? The problem with combining antennas is that you open yourself to more multipath possibilities. However, if you have the spare antenna lying around, then by all means stick a splitter/combiner in the line, hang 'em both and give it a try.


If you get too much multipath, you could always use an A/B switch between the two antennas instead of combining. Then just switch it back and forth as necessary as the set scans the channels. Which should be pretty fun to try, though the wife might get a laugh from watching you.


----------



## willscary

It would depend on your distance from the towers and the terrain.


A Winegard YA-1713 will give you 0 dbd gain at channels 7-13 if you point it directly between the stations. Along the same lines, a Channel Master 4221 will give you about 4-5 dbd in gain over most of the UHF channels when pointed in the same midpoint direction. This would be perfectly fine if you ar in a good reception area.


----------



## sammycakes












I live on the bottom floor of a large 2 story 4-plex. Immediate terrain is generally flat, or low grade hills. I'm surrounded by many large 2-story dwellings. Mounting in attic or outdoors are not an option. I only care about local nets + PBS and KCAL9. So.... Winegard ss-3000 my best bet? I'm currently using a DIY rack that works okay, but requires a ton of fiddling depending on what station I need.


I'm very new to OTA reception and HDTV in general, if you can't tell. Thanks everyone for all the help.


EDIT: Ignore the subject heading; I meant the SS-3000, not the SS-2000


----------



## keeper

Hey guys, need an outdoor antenna recommendation. I need VHF-channel 11 and 13. Do they make antennas that only cover like 11-13. I have a channel master 4248 in the attic and getting baltimore channel 38 uhf great at 58 miles. No breakups. I live pretty high up. But next month they will be switching to channel 13. Thanks


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keeper* /forum/post/15537033
> 
> 
> Hey guys, need an outdoor antenna recommendation. I need VHF-channel 11 and 13. Do they make antennas that only cover like 11-13. I have a channel master 4248 in the attic and getting baltimore channel 38 uhf great at 58 miles. No breakups. I live pretty high up. But next month they will be switching to channel 13. Thanks



Antennacraft Y10-7-13


Winegard also makes one, but it's deficient on channel 13.


----------



## keeper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/15537145
> 
> 
> Antennacraft Y10-7-13
> 
> 
> Winegard also makes one, but it's deficient on channel 13.



Thanks


----------



## ceeaton

I need some help determining what preamp, if any I can use. My main concern is whether a few close FM stations are going to be a problem. If they aren't, I'd lean towards a Winegard HDP-269 since I'm just trying to overcome loss over a 50' RG-6 cable run from my antenna, and get a few stations I am getting now a little better. If I need an FM trap, I was leaning towards an AP-8700. I currently am using a DBGH, but could substitute it with a SBGH if a gain of a few less dB would help the situation.


Thank you for any advice in advance!


Craig


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ceeaton* /forum/post/15537306
> 
> 
> I need some help determining what preamp, if any I can use. My main concern is whether a few close FM stations are going to be a problem.



It really depends on your antenna. An all channel antenna (2-69) would pick up FM very well and would overload most preamps. A 7-69 antenna would not receive FM well. Such an antenna would make it easier to select a preamp.


The HDP-269 does not have an FM trap.


The AP-4700 or AP-4800 does not amplify VHF and should work.


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ceeaton* /forum/post/15537306
> 
> 
> I need some help determining what preamp, if any I can use. My main concern is whether a few close FM stations are going to be a problem. If they aren't, I'd lean towards a Winegard HDP-269 since I'm just trying to overcome loss over a 50' RG-6 cable run from my antenna, and get a few stations I am getting now a little better. If I need an FM trap, I was leaning towards an AP-8700. I currently am using a DBGH, but could substitute it with a SBGH if a gain of a few less dB would help the situation.
> 
> 
> Thank you for any advice in advance!
> 
> 
> Craig



Your FM levels are not that high, go with the HDP-269, it will work out fine... I have a 100kw station at 6 miles, it does not overload, if my antenna is not directly facing it, that is a VHF antenna, UHF, not enough gain to be a problem...


----------



## fm234n5




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* /forum/post/15538134
> 
> 
> Your FM levels are not that high, go with the HDP-269, it will work out fine... I have a 100kw station at 6 miles, it does not overload, if my antenna is not directly facing it, that is a VHF antenna, UHF, not enough gain to be a problem...



What FM levels do cause a problem with a preamp?


Forgive me if this was discusse long ago in this thread but I am thinking about using a VHF antenna that does cross the FM band to get down to TV channel 6 and one strong radio station -17.5 dBm is nearly in line with some other TV stations.

What are the considerations for requiring the FM trap needs to be in the preamp? Would a distribution amp with an FM trap be about the same? Will I still get enough FM radio reception using the TV antenna for distant listening when using the FM trap? Any advice?

Thanks,


----------



## ceeaton




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/15537656
> 
> 
> The AP-4700 or AP-4800 does not amplify VHF and should work.



In reality the GH antenna I am using is mainly a UHF antenna. I can pick up strong VHF hi stations (WHTM for example), so I wouldn't mind amplifying them in the hopes of picking up WJZ after the transition (moving to Real 13). My main use of the preamp is to get some of my more distant UHF stations I'm getting now with a more reliable signal, especially during foul weather. I just didn't have an inkling of how strong an fm station has to be to muck things up and whether it really mattered using a GH antenna.


Thanks for the help -- I think I'll go with the HDP-269.


Craig


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ceeaton* /forum/post/15540629
> 
> 
> In reality the GH antenna I am using is mainly a UHF antenna. Thanks for the help -- I think I'll go with the HDP-269.



That should be OK.


----------



## mlmahon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ciocci* /forum/post/15533262
> 
> 
> I have a Samsung plasma tv and receive broadcasts using an OTA antenna. I use one antenna, amplifier and a rotator to align with two different transmitters approximately 60 degrees apart. I receive multiple channels both UHF and VHF from both(Phoenix and Tucson). The problem is I have to memorize channels each time I change the antenna angle. This Samsung does not allow the manual addition of channels. I do not want to memorize each time, so I have two thoughts about circumventing this problem; first, two antennas, each pointing at a different transmitter, or second, placing an HDTV tuner before the Samsung in the current configuration. The tuner must allow the manual addition of channels. Thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated.



You might try doing a partial scan.

Tune to the actual unused RF channel just before the channel you wish to add then start a scan. The scan should begin at the tuned channel and then detect the next active channel, adding it to your list (and remapping it to the virtual channel). As soon as the TV detects the new wanted channel, stop the scan and exit menu. It should have added the one channel to your list without erasing any others.


I've successfully done this on many Samsung TV's and tuners.


Good luck.


-ML


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fm234n5* /forum/post/15538764
> 
> 
> What FM levels do cause a problem with a preamp?
> 
> 
> Thanks,



Levels stonger than -40 or so may cause issues with a high gain pre-amp. (The HDP-269 is much more forgiving) My general recommendation is to try the pre-amp with the trap on, then off and see if it makes a difference. Also keep in mind that the internal FM trap does not attenuate the lower end of the FM band very well. (Because of issues with channel 6) If you have strong stations below 92 MHZ on the dial, you may need an external trap _"before"_ the pre-amp that attenuates the _"entire"_ FM band. My FM interference is strong enough that I need a full band trap to attenuate a station with +11.7 db even with no pre-amp. It makes a world of difference.


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/15541916
> 
> 
> Levels stonger than -40 or so may cause issues with a high gain pre-amp. (The HDP-269 is much more forgiving) My general recommendation is to try the pre-amp with the trap on, then off and see if it makes a difference. Also keep in mind that the internal FM trap does not attenuate the lower end of the FM band very well. (Because of issues with channel 6) If you have strong stations below 92 MHZ on the dial, you may need an external trap _"before"_ the pre-amp that attenuates the _"entire"_ FM band. My FM interference is strong enough that I need a full band trap to attenuate a station with +11.7 db even with no pre-amp. It makes a world of difference.



Digital Rules is spot on, I would have posted about the same info!


----------



## sustorm

I just hooked up my Terk HDTVO Antenna rated Blue Zone to my Samsung HDTV and I received with the help of TVfool.com 11 digital channels and 9 analog . I installed the HDTVO antenna in my attic and pointed it toward syracuse, figuring I am about 5-10 miles from the binghamton towers and I picked up 2 syracuse stations. I hooked the amplifier up as directed but do not have it on as it seems to overload most channels.


12.1 WBNG (CBS) 4 miles

20 WBGH (NBC)

26 W26bS(TBN)

34.1 WIVT (ABC)

40.1 WICZ (FOX)

40.2 MYNetwork

42.6 (Assuming PBS Radio)

42.7 (Assuming PBS Radio)

43.1 WNYS(MyN-Syracuse) *54.6 miles*

46.1 WSKG(PBS)

46.2 WSKG(PBS)

46.3 WSKG Create(PBS)

68.1 WSYT(Fox Syracuse) *54.6 miles*


I am tried pulling stations from the scranton/wilkesbarre area couldnt get anything in the few times I tried, probably due to my antenna being in the attic. Is there anything I can do to pull in more channels or should I be happy with my results? I attached my tvfool results for analysis. I really would like to pull in more syracuse stations or scranton, but the scranton stations i have to look thru the local towers, is that a problem?



Thanks for listening


----------



## IDRick

Sustorm,


Your antenna is doing quite well given the challenging reception area that you live in and an attic install. To get more stations, you probably will need to move the antenna out on to the roof this spring. I would seriously consider the tigerbangs solution for deep fringe if you want more OTA. see: http://www.highdefforum.com/local-hd...reception.html


----------



## sustorm

Thanks Rick for the fast reply, when using TVfools offline google maps, I only show 4 channels that have a reception coverage area for my home that I am not currently receiving, two in Elmira and two in the Scranton PA Area.


----------



## da888

Now that we're really getting the cold weather, if your having signal problems, don't forget to look at the dish to see if there's snow.

I bought the AC powered Hot Shot from the SatPro and haven't had any problems since.


----------



## iowegian3




----------



## Neil L

Yep, those are all DTV ready. At least for the channels they can receive. But, they probably are not even analog ready for today's TV markets, since there are now, and will be in the digital future, channels in the UHF band.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keeper* /forum/post/15537033
> 
> 
> Hey guys, need an outdoor antenna recommendation. I need VHF-channel 11 and 13. Do they make antennas that only cover like 11-13. I have a channel master 4248 in the attic and getting baltimore channel 38 uhf great at 58 miles. No breakups. I live pretty high up. But next month they will be switching to channel 13. Thanks



Where do you live? WJZ-13 will be operating at "_very low_" power after the transition until their new directional antenna is installed.(9.8kw) Once the directional antenna is installed the power will be increased (28.8kw), but the directional pattern of their antenna will favor areas east of Baltimore.


WBAL-11 will also be running at a low power level (5kw-omni), but so far there are no plans to increase power. Things should be quite interesting!!


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/15537145
> 
> 
> Antennacraft Y10-7-13
> 
> 
> Winegard also makes one, but it's deficient on channel 13.



Thanks Tower Guy,


Do you prefer the Antennacraft over the Winegard YA-1713 in general? How does it compare to the YA-1713 on channels 7-12?


Glen


----------



## keeper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/15571292
> 
> 
> Where do you live? WJZ-13 will be operating at "_very low_" power after the transition until their new directional antenna is installed.(9.8kw) Once the directional antenna is installed the power will be increased (28.8kw), but the directional pattern of their antenna will favor areas east of Baltimore.
> 
> 
> WBAL-11 will also be running at a low power level (5kw-omni), but so far there are no plans to increase power. Things should be quite interesting!!



I live in Dillsburg,Pa. I get WJZ very well with no breakups at 58 miles with an attic antenna. Why in the world would they wait to install this antenna?


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keeper* /forum/post/15571496
> 
> 
> I live in Dillsburg,Pa. I get WJZ very well with no breakups at 58 miles with an attic antenna. Why in the world would they wait to install this antenna?



They have to limit their power to areas west in order to protect WWPX-12 Martinsburg, WV.


I'm wondering if I will have issues at my location????????


----------



## keeper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/15571550
> 
> 
> They have to limit their power to areas west in order to protect WWPX-12 Martinsburg, WV.
> 
> 
> I'm wondering if I will have issues at my location????????



I hope that I'm still able to recieve them. WJZ is a great channel. I can't get my harrisburg cbs because of a mountain. I don't even get a blip on WV channels. I would hope that from Frederick, MD to Dillsburg,Pa they still shoot their signal as strong as before. There is a mountain that would stop any interference of WV channels.


----------



## Jim Miller

Does the TVFool site take into account these sort of directional vs omni broadcasting changes as well as power changes?


I'm considering adding OTA and I'm in a fringy area per TVFool but I'm wondering if it's going to be actually worse than currently predicted.


tnx

jtm


----------



## ceeaton




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keeper* /forum/post/15571582
> 
> 
> I hope that I'm still able to recieve them. WJZ is a great channel. I can't get my harrisburg cbs because of a mountain. I don't even get a blip on WV channels. I would hope that from Frederick, MD to Dillsburg,Pa they still shoot their signal as strong as before. There is a mountain that would stop any interference of WV channels.



I agree. WJZ has been my CBS replacement for a while since WHP 21 is broadcasting on channel 4 till the change over. Where exactly are you that you can't get WHP...I'm down at Lake Meade (south of you) and it was one of my strongest stations before I switched over to a UHF antenna (SBGH/DBGH)?


BTW, I thought WJZ broadcast towers were closer to Baltimore, not Frederick.


Craig


----------



## Digital Rules

al


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jim Miller* /forum/post/15571625
> 
> 
> Does the TVFool site take into account these sort of directional vs omni broadcasting changes as well as power changes?
> 
> 
> I'm considering adding OTA and I'm in a fringy area per TVFool but I'm wondering if it's going to be actually worse than currently predicted.
> 
> 
> tnx
> 
> jtm



Yes, they do take those things into account.


I find the predictions to be fairly accurate, more so with UHF.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ceeaton* /forum/post/15572203
> 
> 
> BTW, I thought WJZ broadcast towers were closer to Baltimore, not Frederick.



Yes, WMAR-2, WBAL-11, & WJZ-13 all broadcast from the same tower on TV Hill in Baltimore. I think WBFF-45 is on the same tower, but not 100% sure.


----------



## keeper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/15572330
> 
> 
> Yes, WMAR-2, WBAL-11, & WJZ-13 all broadcast from the same tower on TV Hill in Baltimore. I think WBFF-45 is on the same tower, but not 100% sure.



What I was referring to is they should cover from the mountain from Frederick to Dillsburg. They do that now. If that is not the case I won't be covered by any CBS station. I live West of rt 15 at the base of the mountain. At the very north-western edge of York County. I get all Baltimore stations with an attic antenna. Nbc 11 being the worst and WJZ the best.


----------



## keeper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ceeaton* /forum/post/15572203
> 
> 
> I agree. WJZ has been my CBS replacement for a while since WHP 21 is broadcasting on channel 4 till the change over. Where exactly are you that you can't get WHP...I'm down at Lake Meade (south of you) and it was one of my strongest stations before I switched over to a UHF antenna (SBGH/DBGH)?
> 
> 
> BTW, I thought WJZ broadcast towers were closer to Baltimore, not Frederick.
> 
> 
> Craig



When I lived in Thurmont MD- WHP analog came in great. There is a mountain directly west and north of me blocking cbs and abc in Harrisburg.


Here is a doc on WJZs new antenna. I can't make much out of it.
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/f...ibit_id=624669


----------



## ceeaton

Are you over behind the Boy Scout camp? That would kinda mess up things, like WHP, WITF and WHTM. I guess I should consider my location very lucky! I'd love to have a little more altitude...I can only get WJZ, WNUV, and WMPT at around 50%, on a good day.


Craig


BTW, thanks for the WJZ attachment. Looks like I'm awful close to not getting it after transition.


----------



## keeper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ceeaton* /forum/post/15573451
> 
> 
> Are you over behind the Boy Scout camp? That would kinda mess up things, like WHP, WITF and WHTM. I guess I should consider my location very lucky! I'd love to have a little more altitude...I can only get WJZ, WNUV, and WMPT at around 50%, on a good day.
> 
> 
> Craig
> 
> 
> BTW, thanks for the WJZ attachment. Looks like I'm awful close to not getting it after transition.



Yes, pretty close to the camp. I get good reception here but if they change their direct of the antenna I will be in trouble. In reading the attachment what line do you think is the cut off line? Dotted or red? Its hard to understand.


----------



## thmswng

I have an old BELL expressVU dish which is no longer in use. can i connect it to my new sony HDtv with tv tuner in order to receive over the air HD signal? I am very new at this and thinking if there is a use of this abandon dish... thanks for help.


----------



## Neil L

thmswng,


No. A dish antenna is for microwave frequencies such as come off a satellite. OTA TV channels are much longer wavelength frequencies known as UHF and VHF. You will need a TV antenna.


----------



## ceeaton




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keeper* /forum/post/15574163
> 
> 
> Yes, pretty close to the camp. I get good reception here but if they change their direct of the antenna I will be in trouble. In reading the attachment what line do you think is the cut off line? Dotted or red? Its hard to understand.



I'm thinking the red line. I don't quite understand the dotted 5 mi extension. Maybe one of the many engineers looking on could clarify that for us. I'm more worried that if the waiver doesn't pass, we'll be totally excluded (see last map).


Craig


----------



## keeper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ceeaton* /forum/post/15574849
> 
> 
> I'm thinking the red line. I don't quite understand the dotted 5 mi extension. Maybe one of the many engineers looking on could clarify that for us. I'm more worried that if the waiver doesn't pass, we'll be totally excluded (see last map).
> 
> 
> Craig



I just found this on the Wash/Balt thread. It looks better once they go to full power. Probably more up to date also.

Attachment won't work, page 261 of that thread.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/15571333
> 
> 
> Thanks Tower Guy,
> 
> 
> Do you prefer the Antennacraft over the Winegard YA-1713 in general? How does it compare to the YA-1713 on channels 7-12?
> 
> 
> Glen




Look here for the data on the YA-1713.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


Note that the net gain drops from +9.7 db on channel 10 to -6 db on the top of channel 13.


I'd expect that the performance of the Winegard and Antennacraft would be similar on channels 7-12.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ceeaton* /forum/post/15574849
> 
> 
> I'm thinking the red line. I don't quite understand the dotted 5 mi extension.



The FCC has already granted the waiver to 28.8 KW. WJZ has an application for temporary operation at 9.8 KW, but using their old analog antenna. It will take a few months after the analog shutdown to switch to this power.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/f...ibit_id=695542 


The 5 mile dotted line is the maximum that the FCC would allow them to extend their coverage. Note that the actual proposed coverage just touches the line.


----------



## keeper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/15575852
> 
> 
> The FCC has already granted the waiver to 28.8 KW. WJZ has an application for temporary operation at 9.8 KW, but using their old analog antenna. It will take a few months after the analog shutdown to switch to this power.
> 
> http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/f...ibit_id=695542
> 
> 
> The 5 mile dotted line is the maximum that the FCC would allow them to extend their coverage. Note that the actual proposed coverage just touches the line.



I'm still confused on this. Will WJZ cover the 5mile area to the black dotted line or will they give up those potential viewers when they go full power?


----------



## 300ohm

Re: are they DTV ready.


Yeah, they are all vhf antennas. Theyre going to miss a lot of uhf programming. That vhf-hi/lo antenna from the late 1940's is in need of repair, its sagging.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keeper* /forum/post/15575977
> 
> 
> I'm still confused on this. Will WJZ cover the 5mile area to the black dotted line or will they give up those potential viewers when they go full power?



It depends on the direction.


----------



## iowegian3

Re: are they DTV ready?
























I'm surprised no one noticed the old twin lead coming down the masts of most of the antennas I posted. Some, still have nice, orderly, twisted downlead. Others are just dangling in the breeze. So, there's some RG-6 in order, to start.


Not much ice or severe wind here in Canon (read: microclimates) so these old soldiers are still up long after their counterparts elsewhere got turned into beer cans. While it's dry here, there's still got to be some corrosion to clean up.


So, not are they only missing the U's, they'd probably be pretty numb in the V dept., too. I love these old beasts, and I'd love them even better hanging from the ceiling of a TV/radio museum or the big garage I'll never have.


I'm guessing, after looking at old catalogs, the oldest of the bunch is from the late 50's to early 60's. That's still 50 years.


The oddest of the bunch in my book is the last one, the Finco "Bedspring", the one that looks a bit like the beginnings of a humongo 4228. Prior to moving here, I'd only seen one in the last 40 years. Andthat includes living in fringe areas my first 20. There are at least four in this area.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I'm guessing, after looking at old catalogs, the oldest of the bunch is from the late 50's to early 60's. That's still 50 years.



I think that folded dipole vhf-hi-lo is a little older than that, late 1940's maybe when it first came out ??


When I was a kid, we used to have a double bay vhf bowtie similiar to the one pictured, except it had straight reflectors not the x type. It pulled in stations fairly well from over 70 miles away.


----------



## samstom

Guys,

Is it possible for the strongest channel, which means that this channel is easily received to suffer from the worst multi-path? I do not have serious multipath with those that are harder to receive. But this particular one which is easier to get on my 4221, I see more ghostings than anything.


----------



## keeper

Do they make such a thing as a cut to channel antenna that is geared toward maximizing reception of one channel only? Like a channel 13 Yagi? Where does one find these if they exist? Thanks


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keeper* /forum/post/15578395
> 
> 
> Do they make such a thing as a cut to channel antenna that is geared toward maximizing reception of one channel only? Like a channel 13 Yagi? Where does one find these if they exist? Thanks



Yes, they exist, or at least they used to exist, but are becoming very difficult to locate. Stark Electronic still has the Winegard "CC" series listed and some Blonder Tongue models on their website, but little info about ordering and availability. You could call them and check to see if they are still available.
http://www.starkelectronic.com/vhf.htm


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *samstom* /forum/post/15578261
> 
> 
> Guys,
> 
> Is it possible for the strongest channel, which means that this channel is easily received to suffer from the worst multi-path? I do not have serious multipath with those that are harder to receive. But this particular one which is easier to get on my 4221, I see more ghostings than anything.



Yes


There may be some things you could to to the 4221 to make it better but more than likely you will have to go to a more directional antenna.


----------



## dmatch

Hi ALL,


I am currently using a 91XG yagi antenna. I am behind hills and trees with no line-of-sight to transmitters (at best 2 edge reception). I have one UHF channel that I have poor reception on (real channel 44) and the 91XG barely does the job for this channel. I can move it up/down as little as 1 foot from where it is currently positioned and will get almost nothing. I have found a "hot-spot" that barely works for the channel.


I was considering buying a CM4228 or trying to build a double bay Gray-Hoverman antenna but believe that it will not be an improvement for the following reason... Please correct me if you think I am wrong here. That is why I am posting this.


Bay antennas seem to be designed for uniform signal field strength situations where the signal from many elements are combined to increase gain. The field strength in the area of the hot-spot where my antenna is located does not appear to be uniform. I believe that the yagi (91XG) works as well as it does only because its directors can be inserted in the hot-spot and it only has one driven element. I am given to understand with antennas that have multiple elements that if some elements have a higher signal than others that the extra signal will be broadcast out thru the weaker elements causing an effective averaging of signal across all elements and a reduction of gain from what would be expected in a uniform signal field. With a bay antenna would this apply when it is in a non-uniform signal field?


In short, do you think a 91XG yagi would perform better in a grossly non-uniform signal field (when in a hot-spot) than a CM4228 bay antenna?


dmatch


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Where is the best place to pick up the old style Channel Master 4221? I meant to do this earlier, and now it seems to be getting a bit harry. Solid Signal is sold out. Amazon ditto.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I am currently using a 91XG yagi antenna. I am behind hills and trees with no line-of-sight to transmitters (at best 2 edge reception). I have one UHF channel that I have poor reception on (real channel 44) and the 91XG barely does the job for this channel. I can move it up/down as little as 1 foot from where it is currently positioned and will get almost nothing. I have found a "hot-spot" that barely works for the channel.
> 
> 
> I was considering buying a CM4228 or trying to build a double bay Gray-Hoverman antenna but believe that it will not be an improvement for the following reason... Please correct me if you think I am wrong here. That is why I am posting this.



Well thats the thing with the corner reflector yagis, you have to find that hot spot. In my experience, the bay type antennas are better for getting signals thru the trees, in that there is more front facing metal presented towards the transmitter and at different levels, increasing the chances that it will fall into a hot spot.


----------



## YUL-STL

keeper:


Wade Antenna Inc. in Brantford, Ontario manufactures consumer VHF channel-cut antennas. They have both 5 and 10 element antennas offering 7.5 dBd and 10 dBd gain respectively.


The channel 13 model would be the 5Y13S or the 10Y13S. You can find more information here: www dot wade-antenna dot com/Wade/cutchannel.pdf [Sorry, I couldn't post link as I have 

I have a 10Y13S myself and paid C$75 retail for it. These antennas are good for eliminating adjacent channel interference because their frequency response is so narrow.


YUL-STL


----------



## keeper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *YUL-STL* /forum/post/15588911
> 
> 
> keeper:
> 
> 
> Wade Antenna Inc. in Brantford, Ontario manufactures consumer VHF channel-cut antennas. They have both 5 and 10 element antennas offering 7.5 dBd and 10 dBd gain respectively.
> 
> 
> The channel 13 model would be the 5Y13S or the 10Y13S. You can find more information here: www dot wade-antenna dot com/Wade/cutchannel.pdf [Sorry, I couldn't post link as I have
> 
> I have a 10Y13S myself and paid C$75 retail for it. These antennas are good for eliminating adjacent channel interference because their frequency response is so narrow.
> 
> 
> YUL-STL



Thanks


----------



## smackman1

*Zip code is 71260.*



My wife's parents are wanting to install a Outside antenna.

With this zip code, can someone give me some advice on what antenna to purchase?

I considered the CM 4221HD or CM4228HD. I do have some VHF channels to deal with specifically VHF 7 which will be 8 after 2/17 per TVFOOL. COM, Channel 11 and channel 13.


I am trying to keep this as simple as possible. They are both pushing 80 years of age.


----------



## rabbit73

Here is the tvfool for your zip. I'll let the big guns give you antenna advice because I have to see about dinner.


You can do it yourself with more accurate results if you enter your exact address at tvfool.com. The exact address will not show up when you post it as an attachment on this thread. Click on "save" for post transition to combine all the info and select the results as an attachment up loaded from your hard drive to the manage attachments window.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The Channel Master 4220, 4221, 4228 old Made in America style are becoming harder to find already.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smackman1* /forum/post/15596355
> 
> *Zip code is 71260.*
> 
> With this zip code, can someone give me some advice on what antenna to purchase?



Let's assume that you don't want a rotor.


Start with a 7-69 antenna aimed at 170 degrees. A Winegard HD76XX series would be a good option. It's best mounted on the roof.


Next you need a second UHF only antenna for NBC & MyNet. A 2 or 4 bay bow tie array is one choice. Aim it at 11 degrees. Try to add it to the 7-69 antenna with a splitter used as a combiner. This antenna could be mounted in the attic.


If you want a CW, you'll have to go on the roof with a third antenna. (Most 80 year olds don't watch CW.)


----------



## mcfoo

I currently have a Radio Shack 190 antenna (outside, 20 feet high) pointed at 320-340. It receives 13, 14, 21, 36 and 38, the stations I am interested in. Channel 38 is problematic, with macroblocking and other problems occasionally. What antenna would best receive those stations? TVFool below.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mcfoo* /forum/post/15605224
> 
> 
> I currently have a Radio Shack 190 antenna (outside, 20 feet high) pointed at 320-340. receive those stations?



Your antenna may be just fine. You may just need a rotator. Have you ever tried pointing your antenna more towards 356 degrees to see if channel 38 improves?


----------



## mcfoo

Thanks for the reply.


If I go more north I start to lose the others. I'm hoping for a wide angle UHF that can see ch 13.


----------



## gjvrieze

I think a DB4/4221 may be a good choice, wide beam width of the 4221 should make it easier to aim in between... How many devices are hooked up to your antenna? If more then a few, you may want a low gain amp, the HDP-269 would be a good choice, if you are splitting the signal more then 2 ways


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mcfoo* /forum/post/15606636
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> 
> If I go more north I start to lose the others. I'm hoping for a wide angle UHF that can see ch 13.



13 is strong enough, I would bet that a paper clip in the rf connector would pick it up some of the time, so I think any outdoor UHF antenna should be ok with it....


----------



## ceeaton




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* /forum/post/15607092
> 
> 
> How many devices are hooked up to your antenna? If more then a few, you may want a low gain amp, the HDP-269 would be a good choice, if you are splitting the signal more then 2 ways



IMHO, with four stations strong enough to overload any preamp, I think I'd ditch any thought about a preamp unless you are using rabbit ears inside, even then, with four of them you might get an overload with that....I wish I had his problem...


Craig


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mcfoo* /forum/post/15606636
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> 
> If I go more north I start to lose the others. I'm hoping for a wide angle UHF that can see ch 13.



This may be close to what you're thinking.


Antennacraft HBU-22


----------



## mcfoo

Thanks for the help. Right now I have an RS inline amp feeding 3 TVs, although there are but 2 hooked up. Would a Clear Stream 1, or DB2, or CM 4220 do the job?


----------



## dtloken

Ok, I've now moved.


I have a DB4 and a Motorola BDA-S1 broadband amplifier. I'm having a few dropouts on the more distant Chicago stations (60 miles South) but the antenna is temporarily indoors while I get my cabling situated. I imagine it will clear up with the antenna moved outdoors.


The problem is right now I will have a few VHF stations after the transition. Channel 10 from Milwaukee is staying VHF and channel 7 from Chicago is reverting to VHF IIRC. What should I look at for an antenna? At another location in this city I was able to pull in channel 10 with just the DB4.


I am guessing a set of rabbit ears zip tied to the top of or the reflector on the DB4 with a VHF/UHF combiner should help? Should the combiner be placed before or after the amplifier?


----------



## hendrickx

I'm in Plant City, FL about 40 miles from the towers that would give me ABC, CBS, Fox and NBC. I'd like those 4, at minimum.


Here's my plan: I'm wired for cable. I was going to get a new signal splitter, leave the cable feed for my cable-modem, and run the new splitter from an attic-based antenna to the rest of the house (that's three drops in 1400 sq feet of space).


Tv Fool is attached.


What's my cheapest option? Is DIY necessarily cheaper than store-bought? How do I best aim my antenna without fancy equipment?


Thanks for the advice!


----------



## bozey45

Don't know where the 40 mile figure came from but you're less than 20 miles from the antenna farm in Riverview--only more distant station is CBS channel 10, they are close to 40 at 37. If there are no obstructions between you and Riverview then a Radio Shack V/U combo would probably go in the attic. When the digital switch occurs we will have 4 stations on VHF, the rest on UHF. I'm NW of you in Wesley Chapel and I use separate VHF-UHF antennas with a rotator. if you only want an attic antenna I would go to good old Radio Shack and get there smallest VHF/UHF combo and try it in the attic to see how well you receive digital channels--make sure you can take it back if it doesn't suit you. I tried their U-75R here (UHF only) and didn't suit me so I got the separate antennas. All you can do is try thier combo and see how it works; channel 10 will be the bugaboo (their antenna is in tarpon Springs) maybe but you might be able to split the difference between Riverview and Tarpon Springs and still recieve good signals. I found out already that regardless of what people are saying these digital signals are finicky and using an antenna especially in the attic is a trial and error deal around here.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hendrickx* /forum/post/15624929
> 
> 
> What's my cheapest option? Is DIY necessarily cheaper than store-bought? How do I best aim my antenna without fancy equipment?



Your cheapest option is an Antennacraft HBU-22 plus an Antennacraft Y5-7-13. Aim them using a compass or topo map and a nearby landmark.


To add the two antennas you can try a splitter backwards. If that doesn't work for you, a Jointenna tuned to channel 10 will be needed.


----------



## l2le

Quote:

Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* 
Can you post your tvfool results? Also, any chance you know the model of the antenna or can post pictures?
I currently have a Winegard PR-7000 (lite green zone) and checked TV fool for my channels post 2/17/09. I found a replacement antenna PR-7013 that is supposed to be better, but I'm not sure it really is. I get good reception on analog and digital channels presently and the antenna is in the attic. If I get another one, I'd probably put it up there too.


Currently use an older Panasonic Analog TV, Panasonic EZ48V DVR, Dish 501 PVR, Yamaha V663 Receiver, and a Tivax STB-T8 CECB. I also need to know how to hook this mess up properly in order to record on the DVR with the CECB NOT in standby. The DVR records fine if the CECB is in standby, but does NOT record if the CECB is on. I obviously have something connected incorrectly.


Here is the TV Fool info and info on my current antenna. Will it be good enough for the transition?


Linda
 

 

WINPR-7000.pdf 85k . file


----------



## dmulvany




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *l2le* /forum/post/15637388
> 
> 
> Currently use an older Panasonic Analog TV, Panasonic EZ48V DVR, Dish 501 PVR, Yamaha V663 Receiver, and a Tivax STB-T8 CECB. I also need to know how to hook this mess up properly in order to record on the DVR with the CECB NOT in standby. The DVR records fine if the CECB is in standby, but does NOT record if the CECB is on. I obviously have something connected incorrectly.
> 
> 
> Linda



Isn't the Panasonic EZ48V a DVD recorder with a built-in ATSC and NTSC tuner rather than a DVR? If that's the case, you don't need to and shouldn't use the CECB with the Panasonic EZ48V. You'll get better quality recording using a direct connection between the antenna and the Panasonic EZ48V, which can also be used like an expensive converter box itself (but you should use the cheaper Tivax instead).


(I couldn't find a Panasonic EZ48V DVR on the first page of a Google search.)


----------



## l2le




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dmulvany* /forum/post/15637604
> 
> 
> Isn't the Panasonic EZ48V a DVD recorder with a built-in ATSC and NTSC tuner rather than a DVR? If that's the case, you don't need to and shouldn't use the CECB with the Panasonic EZ48V. You'll get better quality recording using a direct connection between the antenna and the Panasonic EZ48V, which can also be used like an expensive converter box itself (but you should use the cheaper Tivax instead).
> 
> 
> (I couldn't find a Panasonic EZ48V DVR on the first page of a Google search.)



Sorry, It is a Panasonic DMR-EZ48V and when the Tivax is connected and turned on, the Panny starts up from its scheduled timed program but then does not record until I turn the Tivax to standby. This is even though I am recording a digital channel.


I guess I don't understand the way the signals all work. The only way I can figure to connect everything, is to run a splitter and send one end of the antenna to the DMR and one to the Tivax box. I'm still concerned however that the timed program will not work.


The Panny recorded fine and started up correctly BEFORE I put the Tivax box in the mix.


Yes, the Panasonic DMR-EZ48V has a digital tuner and I've been watching digital channels with it and recording digital channels. My TV is analog, so I wanted to be able to watch a digital channel (after the transition) while the DMR was turned OFF in order to start a recording. If it is turned off, then I don't have any way except a converter box to watch digital channels. Am I really messed up or what?


Linda


----------



## Mister B

Linda, Are you running the antenna signal through the Tivax and on to your DVD recorder? If so, the CSEB is blocking the antenna signal when it is on as the RF output if supplying a channel 3 or 4 for older TV's with no other inputs. When the CSEB is off it passes the entire antenna signal especially if it is a newer "analog pass" model.

I think you have already hit upon the solution of installing a signal splitter and running separate antenna cables to the CSEB and DVD recorder. You will loose a bit of signal with the splitter but that is happening anyway inside of the Tivax. Your signal and antenna set-up appear to be very strong.

Good Luck from down I-25 in El Paso.


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *l2le* /forum/post/15637388
> 
> 
> I currently have a Winegard PR-7000 (lite green zone) and checked TV fool for my channels post 2/17/09. I found a replacement antenna PR-7013 that is supposed to be better, but I'm not sure it really is. I get good reception on analog and digital channels presently and the antenna is in the attic. If I get another one, I'd probably put it up there too.
> 
> 
> Currently use an older Panasonic Analog TV, Panasonic EZ48V DVR, Dish 501 PVR, Yamaha V663 Receiver, and a Tivax STB-T8 CECB. I also need to know how to hook this mess up properly in order to record on the DVR with the CECB NOT in standby. The DVR records fine if the CECB is in standby, but does NOT record if the CECB is on. I obviously have something connected incorrectly.
> 
> 
> Here is the TV Fool info and info on my current antenna. Will it be good enough for the transition?
> 
> 
> Linda



Linda:


Your signals are very high, your antenna attic mounted should be good for all the stations at 110 heading... You would not want to use an amp either, as it would almost certainly overload... I would wait and see how it works, if you get dropouts on the lower stations on the chart like KAZQ-DT, you could get a little higher gain antenna... Most attic installs eat up at least -13dB of signal, so that puts that station near -56dB, which most CECBs and good tv tuners should lock on pretty easily...


----------



## Tobias Ziegler

Linda-


You don't need a splitter.


Take your coax cable from the antenna and connect it to the EZ48V's "RF IN" jack.


Install a piece of coax cable from the EZ48V's "RF OUT" jack and connect it to the CECB's "RF IN" jack (it might be called "Ant In" or something similar, I'm not sure).


Install a piece of coax cable from the CECB's "RF OUT" jack to the antenna input on your TV.


The EZ48V will see the antenna signals at all times with this, and the EZ48V will either pass the antenna signal unaltered through to the CECB at all times, or if it has a modulated signal (a channel 3 or channel 4 signal) coming out of its RF OUT jack, you can push a button on your EZ48V's remote to switch it into passthrough mode just like we've all been doing with VCRs for the last 20 years.


----------



## l2le




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/15640186
> 
> 
> Linda-
> 
> 
> You don't need a splitter.
> 
> 
> Take your coax cable from the antenna and connect it to the EZ48V's "RF IN" jack.
> 
> 
> Install a piece of coax cable from the EZ48V's "RF OUT" jack and connect it to the CECB's "RF IN" jack (it might be called "Ant In" or something similar, I'm not sure).
> 
> 
> Install a piece of coax cable from the CECB's "RF OUT" jack to the antenna input on your TV.
> 
> 
> The EZ48V will see the antenna signals at all times with this, and the EZ48V will either pass the antenna signal unaltered through to the CECB at all times, or if it has a modulated signal (a channel 3 or channel 4 signal) coming out of its RF OUT jack, you can push a button on your EZ48V's remote to switch it into passthrough mode just like we've all been doing with VCRs for the last 20 years.



That is the way Systems2000 said to do it too. I think right now I DON'T have the antenna directly to the EZ48V.


The passthrough seems to be my problem, and of course I won't know for sure until I am able to switch the coax around behind everything!


Currently, the EZ48V turns on at the set time with no problem, but if the Tivax is "ON" (w/green light) then the EZ48V just sits there and will NOT record until I put the Tivax on standby. I still want to watch Digital channels while the EZ48V is recording a timed program. If the Tivax is on standby all I will receive is snow!


Wouldn't the splitter provide a clearer picture, or will I lose too much signal by using a splitter?


I don't know how to figure the dB on signal loss and noise etc., so I am trusting all you A/V "specialists" to help me out. LOL


Linda


----------



## l2le

Thank you all for your help! Very much appreciated and I hooked up components like most of you all said to do....


Antenna - ->DMR-EZ48V - ->Tivax STB T8- ->Dish PVR501 - ->TV


It all works great! Thank you again. Next time, (IF..God forbid) I'll ask the questions first and try to be more specific.


I think the DTV people for the government and all others should post a "help" with a simple diagram for those of us who are using a recorder with a digital tuner and a converter box who have the same situation as I do. Believe me, no one I found has that scenario.


----------



## Pagoona

About 6 or 7 years ago, my antenna was struck my lightning. We had it installed a few years prior when we had DirecTV so we could pull in the local channels. At the time it was struck by lightning, we had switched to cable and were rarely using the antenna. I don't know when we found out that the antenna stopped working, but it hasn't worked since.


The antenna was professionally installed so I can hesitantly assume that it was properly grounded. However it hasn't been able to pull in any signal (analog or digital) and the rotator doesn't work. I'm not an electrician or an antenna expert but what kind of repair am I in for if I want to get it working again? Can I do it myself?


----------



## bhlonewolf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pagoona* /forum/post/15646790
> 
> 
> About 6 or 7 years ago, my antenna was struck my lightning. We had it installed a few years prior when we had DirecTV so we could pull in the local channels. At the time it was struck by lightning, we had switched to cable and were rarely using the antenna. I don't know when we found out that the antenna stopped working, but it hasn't worked since.
> 
> 
> The antenna was professionally installed so I can hesitantly assume that it was properly grounded. However it hasn't been able to pull in any signal (analog or digital) and the rotator doesn't work. I'm not an electrician or an antenna expert but what kind of repair am I in for if I want to get it working again? Can I do it myself?



Kind of hard to say. If it was directly struck by lightning, I'd suspect you'd have a melted ball of metal. Antennas are surprisingly simple so if it doesn't work and shows no sign of damage, it could be a connection issue -- corroded or such. The rotor is another story -- can't be sure without looking at it.


I'd use tvfool to check out your location, dial it in manually so you know which station you should get, and try redoing the connections. If that fails, you may need a new antenna.


----------



## d510d180




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pagoona* /forum/post/15646790
> 
> 
> ...was professionally installed so I can hesitantly assume that it was properly grounded.



Double check it was done properly, refer to the end of
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pagoona* /forum/post/15646790
> 
> 
> About 6 or 7 years ago, my antenna was struck my lightning. We had it installed a few years prior when we had DirecTV so we could pull in the local channels. At the time it was struck by lightning, we had switched to cable and were rarely using the antenna. I don't know when we found out that the antenna stopped working, but it hasn't worked since.
> 
> 
> The antenna was professionally installed so I can hesitantly assume that it was properly grounded. However it hasn't been able to pull in any signal (analog or digital) and the rotator doesn't work. I'm not an electrician or an antenna expert but what kind of repair am I in for if I want to get it working again? Can I do it myself?



the 300 to 75 ohm transformer on the antenna could have easily been destroyed by a nearby or partial lightning strike. also the coax could have been damaged any where along its length.


go to tvfool.com and look for what real channels will exist after the transition. does your current antenna (assuming it still works) fit the antenna that you will need? if they are in more than one direction (i assume because you had a rotor) then you will need to replace or fix (if you aren't an electronics diy then that would be a bad idea, give it to someone for parts) the rotor.


for this antenna you can do a test now, go up to the antenna, replace the 300 to 75 ohm transformer (just need a screwdriver and maybe pliers). the coax end that connects to the antenna may have to be redone. even without a working rotor if the antenna is pointed towards a station you should be able to see if you get a signal.


if you could do now using an NTSC TV to check if it works it would be easier. trying to test antenna with an unknown digital receiving situation would be more difficult (you don'r see picture as quickly and easily as with analog NTSC).


----------



## sustorm

Hi, Can I make a 2 or 4 bay UHF antenna by connecting 2-4 of R.S. UHF Outline Bow-Tie Antenna's to one 300 to 75 balun?


I dont have the materials for a DYI but I thought this might work as well. I am looking to pick up channels 18, 19, 36, and 44 (zip code 13790) I currently pick up 19 and 44 with a TERK HDTVO and I am looking to do some experimenting with the UHF channels.


These channels are in different directions, but my real question is;


would connecting 2 or 4 of the UHF Bowties from radio shack to 1 balun work as a 2 or 4 bay antenna? Here is the link to the RS bowtie http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062017 


Any comments would be appreciated Thanks!


Also posted in the how to build UHF topic


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Hi, Can I make a 2 or 4 bay UHF antenna by connecting 2-4 of R.S. UHF Outline Bow-Tie Antenna's to one 300 to 75 balun?



You can, but without a lot of modeling work, the phasing line spacing would probably be all out of whack and performance would suffer badly. Plus they cost at least $3.95 each. Much cheaper to buy house wiring at the home center and follow a modeled design.


----------



## sustorm

thanks!


----------



## georgemoe

Hi. Hope I can get some recommendations on an outdoor antenna that will be split to 3, possibly 4 tv's. I do not want an amp or rotor in this setup. Trying to keep it simple. This week I'll be getting rid of DirecTV and going with only OTA until FiOS is up in my city by end of summer. Would like to maximize channels received.


I'm 31 miles west of Boston. Current OTA is with a DirecTV HR10-250 and Zenith SS through an east facing first floor wall. I get all the Boston locals now but have signal issues sometimes with Fox 25-1. All these stations are roughly 31 miles and 121 degrees.


I also have a 20 LG TV also on a SS (different location) east facing wall. This setup has issues with 25-1 (LG tuner possibly) but I can pull some Providence signals from 52 miles and 153 degrees. The HR10-250 cannot.


Wednesday I'll have a new Tivo HD S3 to add to the HR10-250 and LG. I'd like to receive the Boston content including WHDH moving to hi-vhf 7 at 121 degrees and also get the Providence at 153 without a rotor or amp if possible. The new antenna will be located where my 3lnb dish is now and I'll try to use the existing dish j-mount with a 10 ft extension that will clear the roofline by a few feet.


I'm looking for a less directionally sensitive antenna so I can get 121-153 degrees.


Antennas being considered.


Wineguard 7694P, 7695P, 7696P, 1080HD

AD DB2 or DB4

CM 4221 or 4228 (I'm guessing I'd want the older non HD versions)


Am I missing any options?


All recommendations appreciated. Thanks. TVFool attached.


----------



## IDRick

Your goal includes several high vhf stations (7, 9, 11, 12 and 13). I definitely consider the Winegard 7695 or 7696. The DB-2, DB-4, and CM 4221 have limited high VHF capability. The CM 4228 HD has lower gain than the old 4228 but has better high VHF reception. IMO, the winegard is a better choice, given the spread between your desired stations.


----------



## georgemoe




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IDRick* /forum/post/15660666
> 
> 
> Your goal includes several high vhf stations (7, 9, 11, 12 and 13). I definitely consider the Winegard 7695 or 7696. The DB-2, DB-4, and CM 4221 have limited high VHF capability. The CM 4228 HD has lower gain than the old 4228 but has better high VHF reception. IMO, the winegard is a better choice, given the spread between your desired stations.



Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks IDRick.


----------



## l2le

I'm looking at larger antennas and those with more power. I found a Winegard that is either a HD7010 or PR5646 with coverage to the Red Zone or UHF 30 miles and VHF 45 miles. Right around $40. Or, would the Winegard PR9032 Directional Yagi be better? It is ONLY UHF. Also there is a Winegard PR7013 or HD7015 and also an Antenna Craft HBU-22 or Channel Master CM2016. These are all about the same price and would fit in my attic or on the roof if needed. I'd like VHF/UHF/FM if possible.


After hooking everything up, I lost ABC on KOAT 7.1. Even on Analog, it has what looks like little diamonds falling down toward the bottom. I did NOT have that problem prior to connecting the CECB. I switched out the Tivax for the Zinwell 950A and it seems a little better, but Channel 7.1 has NO signal this evening on the CECB. I can still pull it in on the Digital Recorder, but it is not as clear as it was. I don't understand why...


Supposedly 7.1 has the highest signal of the channels I receive. It is at 109 degrees where all the rest I get are at 110. Could that be the problem? I can't see where 1 degree would make that much difference, but as I said before, I don't understand these signals anyway.


That's why I come here and ask a lot of questions!










Linda


----------



## jns82

I am a new poster so please forgive my little knowledge on the topic. I am located in rural Alabama, in a relatively low part of the landscape, and have an antenna question. I currently have a rooftop mounted directional old-style conventional antenna (do not know make, but I estimate it to be 15 to 20 yrs old) on a rotor with a Radio Shack mast mounted preamp. I used to have a Channel Master preamp- I switched it out and have seen little difference between the two; at least with regard to analog reception. The antenna feeds two tv's; I have a splitter after the preamp. I have worked to ensure no other splitters or coupling in the cables.


The issue- There are three channels (networks) we are interested in receiving (I have attached my tv fool report); channel 15 (41 miles, 115 deg), channel 9 (41 miles, 115 deg), and channel 12 (58 miles, 227 deg). Through mast rotation, I can receive channel 15 (88% digital tuner strength) and channel 9 (35%) digitally, but not 12 (15 to 20%). Thus, my main issues are 9 (which is sporadic) and 12.


My basic questions- 1) do ya'll think that investing in a newer antenna (e.g. DB8 etc) could likely improve this situation, 2) is an omnidirectional even a possibility for functioning here (considering the spread of 115 vs 227 degrees), and 3) what looks to be my best option (or am I already doing it)?


Again, I am very appreciative of any response.


----------



## ctdish

Are the stations you are trying to get WFSA and WTVM? Take a look at a pretransition TVFool report. It looks like they are now on channels 47 and 14. These are UHF channels and will come in best with a UHF antenna. Your antenna might be VHF only. Can you post the model or a picture? These channels will change their physical channel after the Analog shut off which will probably in June.

John


----------



## The Hound




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *l2le* /forum/post/15670046
> 
> 
> After hooking everything up, I lost ABC on KOAT 7.1. Even on Analog, it has what looks like little diamonds falling down toward the bottom. I did NOT have that problem prior to connecting the CECB. I switched out the Tivax for the Zinwell 950A and it seems a little better, but Channel 7.1 has NO signal this evening on the CECB. I can still pull it in on the Digital Recorder, but it is not as clear as it was. I don't understand why...
> 
> 
> Supposedly 7.1 has the highest signal of the channels I receive. It is at 109 degrees where all the rest I get are at 110. Could that be the problem? I can't see where 1 degree would make that much difference, but as I said before, I don't understand these signals anyway.
> 
> 
> That's why I come here and ask a lot of questions!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Linda



KOAT is a VHF station and at the bottom of the VHF high scale.

Do you have a VHF antenna?

I'm thinking no, and at 16 miles its possible that your UHF antenna was pulling it in.

Once you added the CECB it knocked a few db off your signal so it no longer comes in.

So if you don't have a VHF antenna get one, it should solve your problem.

At 16 miles rabbit ears may do the trick.


----------



## l2le




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *The Hound* /forum/post/15671460
> 
> 
> KOAT is a VHF station and at the bottom of the VHF high scale.
> 
> Do you have a VHF antenna?
> 
> I'm thinking no, and at 16 miles its possible that your UHF antenna was pulling it in.
> 
> Once you added the CECB it knocked a few db off your signal so it no longer comes in.
> 
> So if you don't have a VHF antenna get one, it should solve your problem.
> 
> At 16 miles rabbit ears may do the trick.



Yes, I have a combo Winegard Prostar 1000 model PR-7000 (replaced by the PR-7013) and according to the engineering specs, "Channel 7 has a 5 dB gain over reference dipole with a front-to-back ratio of 8.5dB." (whatever that means??







) The only difference that I wonder about is that 7.1 is at 109 degrees whereas all the rest are coming through at 110 True Azimuth. 7.1 has a higher NM(dB) than 13 and I receive 13 very clearly.


All the transmitters for the channels I receive are 15.9 to 16.1 miles away all in the 109 to 110 degree range according to TV fool. dB is from NM(60.5 dB) to NM(dB 56.3) and power (dBm) from -30.4 to -34.6. 13.1 is transmitting at 75KW at 110 degrees and I get it fine. It will be going back to 13 also.


Fox on 2.1 has the highest KW power with 4.1, 5.1 and 7.1 from 180KW to 150KW. I get 4.1, 5.1 fine too. I even called the Engineer at 7.1 and asked him what they were doing differently in the past week. He said all is the same.


13.1 and 7.1 will be transmitting on vhf and channel 7.1 is my favorite station. I also have a great receiver that needs an FM antenna too. Someone recommended the Winegard 7694. Would that be better?


Actually, in looking at TVFool, channel 7 is the only one that is at 109 True Azimuth. All the others are at 110 and Magnetic North at 100-101. Could the True Azimuth be the problem? (I don't know anything about any of this except what I read.)


Linda


----------



## jns82




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/15670283
> 
> 
> Are the stations you are trying to get WFSA and WTVM? Take a look at a pretransition TVFool report. It looks like they are now on channels 47 and 14. These are UHF channels and will come in best with a UHF antenna. Your antenna might be VHF only. Can you post the model or a picture? These channels will change their physical channel after the Analog shut off which will probably in June.
> 
> John



Yes, stations in question are WSFA (pre 14, post 12) and WTVM (47,9). Thus, they will be switching to VHF post transition. The station I receive the best digitally (WRBL, 15 pre and post) is UHF, so I assume my UHF reception is decent (maybe incorrectly?). I will check the antenna more closely for an exact model- but it is old, and I could find no legible markings (I'll also get a picture). It looks like post-transition, I will need VHF and UHF (9,12 and 15), with same constraints as discussed above. Any suggestions- and thanks so much-


----------



## ctdish

We should be able to tell a lot about the antenna once the picture is posted. Do you get any other digital channels and how do analog channels from the markets that you want look?

John


----------



## The Hound




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *l2le* /forum/post/15673694
> 
> 
> Could the True Azimuth be the problem? (I don't know anything about any of this except what I read.)
> 
> Linda



Yes, The compass that you used to align the antenna points to magnetic north.

So if you pointed the antenna to 110 on the compass I would definitely go back and realign it to 100.

Hope this solves the issue.


----------



## Blackduck

With the British pound at historic lows, and some price reduction on the manufactures part, this low noise preamp is tempting me, more than ever. You can buy the package, with shipping, for about $160 US. My question is this, how much improvement can I expect from going from a 2dB noise factor to a .4 dB noise factor? Is it just the 1.6 dB, or is there more to it than that? Thanks, Walter


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *l2le* /forum/post/15673694
> 
> 
> Actually, in looking at TVFool, channel 7 is the only one that is at 109 True Azimuth. All the others are at 110 and Magnetic North at 100-101. Could the True Azimuth be the problem? (I don't know anything about any of this except what I read.)



Linda,


I don't think the 1 degree is going to be the concern here. When the antenna was aimed, was a compass used to set to the "true" azimuth? If so, you'll be close to 10º off -- pointing closer to a true 120º.


When the antenna is actually pointing at a true 110º in your location, the compass will show it as about 101º (relative to *magnetic* north). If that's the case, then perhaps the antenna should be re-aimed with a compass reading of about 100º or 101º. That would point in a *true* azimuth of 110º.


----------



## ctdish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Blackduck* /forum/post/15683649
> 
> 
> With the British pound at historic lows, and some price reduction on the manufactures part, this low noise preamp is tempting me, more than ever. You can buy the package, with shipping, for about $160 US. My question is this, how much improvement can I expect from going from a 2dB noise factor to a .4 dB noise factor? Is it just the 1.6 dB, or is there more to it than that? Thanks, Walter



The answer is that it depends more on antenna noise than noise figure. Noise figure is not proportional to power but Deg. K is. The noise temperature of 0.4 dB is 28 deg. K and 2 dB 170 deg. That is a reduction in noise power of almost 8 dB. If you have enough preamp gain, low enough transmittion line loss and a good receiver frontend, the system noise temperature will be slightly higher than the sum of preamp noise power and antenna noise power. Without additional manmade noise an antenna pointed at the ground will pick up about 300 deg K and a high gain antenna pointed up will be 20 to 30 Deg. A guess of our antennas pointed at the horizon in an RF quite neighborhood is 150 Deg. This gives a system noise temp of 178 for the .4 dB preamp and 320 for the 2 dB preamp. This is about a 2.5 dB reduction in system noise. If you live in a noisy RF neighborhood and the antenna noise was 450 deg. you would only see a 1.5 dB system improvement with the better preamp. If either preamp goes into clipping its noise temperature can get to thousands of degrees causing reception to be non exsistant or seriously degraded.

I switched from an AP4700 to ResearchCom unit a weak digital station with a lot of dropouts improved to almost no dropouts. An snowy anlog station showed reduced snow but it was not eliminated.

John


----------



## Blackduck




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/15685930
> 
> 
> The answer is that it depends more on antenna noise than noise figure. Noise figure is not proportional to power but Deg. K is. The noise temperature of 0.4 dB is 28 deg. K and 2 dB 170 deg. That is a reduction in noise power of almost 8 dB. If you have enough preamp gain, low enough transmittion line loss and a good receiver frontend, the system noise temperature will be slightly higher than the sum of preamp noise power and antenna noise power. Without additional manmade noise an antenna pointed at the ground will pick up about 300 deg K and a high gain antenna pointed up will be 20 to 30 Deg. A guess of our antennas pointed at the horizon in an RF quite neighborhood is 150 Deg. This gives a system noise temp of 178 for the .4 dB preamp and 320 for the 2 dB preamp. This is about a 2.5 dB reduction in system noise. If you live in a noisy RF neighborhood and the antenna noise was 450 deg. you would only see a 1.5 dB system improvement with the better preamp. If either preamp goes into clipping its noise temperature can get to thousands of degrees causing reception to be non exsistant or seriously degraded.
> 
> I switched from an AP4700 to ResearchCom unit a weak digital station with a lot of dropouts improved to almost no dropouts. An snowy anlog station showed reduced snow but it was not eliminated.
> 
> John



Thanks, John, Sounds like it might be worth a try. By the way, any ideas on why WSBE-PBS is so weak? I can get WNAC- FOX most of the time, this time of year, with no problems, but that PBS station, almost never. Thanks. Walter


----------



## ctdish

It probably depends on where you live. Both WNAC and WSBE use directional antennas. I live is SE CT and the digital version of WSBE is considerably stronger than WNAC. See how they compare on TVFool. Here WSBE comes out 4 dB stronger in the prediction and in reality it is probably even stronger than that.

John


----------



## l2le




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ziggy29* /forum/post/15683728
> 
> 
> Linda,
> 
> 
> I don't think the 1 degree is going to be the concern here. When the antenna was aimed, was a compass used to set to the "true" azimuth? If so, you'll be close to 10º off -- pointing closer to a true 120º.
> 
> 
> When the antenna is actually pointing at a true 110º in your location, the compass will show it as about 101º (relative to *magnetic* north). If that's the case, then perhaps the antenna should be re-aimed with a compass reading of about 100º or 101º. That would point in a *true* azimuth of 110º.




That was so long ago (1994) that I don't remember.....







I WILL use a compass this time though. I think I'm going to get a Medium Directional for Suburban distance for a little more power. I understand I lose about 30-40% by mounting it in the attic. And, I don't know how to figure all those dB's and dBi's.


The winds are sooooo strong here, that I don't want to put it on the roof, even though I know I'd get a better signal.


----------



## holl_ands

In hdtvprimer antenna chart, Winegard YA-1713 is depicted with a big Gain Loss across Ch13:
www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 

These results are based on Ken Nist's NEC simulation runs from several years ago....


The link at the top of that webpage leads to Ken Nist's w1713a.ez NEC file and ant.xls summary.

Neither of these depict a big Gain Loss across Ch13!!!!!


I have been trying to reproduce Ken Nist's results as well as calculate 4nec2 results for a

recently purchased YA-1713....which appears to have different element diameters and other

measurements than the one modeled by Ken Nist....perhaps there are two different models....

Furthermore, Nist assumed/found a better match to 300-ohm, whereas mine is 75-ohm.

Both 4nec2 files are attached below.


Can anyone verify their YA-1713 antenna measurements against either antenna???

Has anyone conducted any ON-AIR measurements???

Does anyone have problems with Analog Ch13???


Updated summary of NEC Simulation results can be found here:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/wgya1713 


As described in the above link, I conducted an ON-AIR TEST with an RF attenuator to see if Analog

Ch13's audio/video dropped out any earlier than other Hi-VHF channels and whether Ch13's audio

dropped out early, in comparison to Ch13's video. All channels performed THE SAME.

Hence I concluded the Big Gain Loss across Ch13 was NOT FOUND in a 70-mile live test and must

be an artifact of the incomplete NEC Simulation process (still working on a more detailed model).

 

w1713a.ez conversion - fm Ken Nist.nec.txt 1.4326171875k . file

 

YA1713d_BalunSource_TL IFZb=150 IFZc=225 Lb=0.127 Lc=0.33m Gap4=0.95.nec.txt 3.3291015625k . file


----------



## willscary

Hollands,


thanks for the great post! Along the same lines, would it be possible for you to show us how the YA-1713 compares to a Funke PSP.1922? I would love to see the two of them head to head, as I have owned both.


Bill


----------



## Blackduck




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/15688003
> 
> 
> It probably depends on where you live. Both WNAC and WSBE use directional antennas. I live is SE CT and the digital version of WSBE is considerably stronger than WNAC. See how they compare on TVFool. Here WSBE comes out 4 dB stronger in the prediction and in reality it is probably even stronger than that.
> 
> John



John, I live in Westerly, real close to you. TVfool has WLWC at the same strength as WSBE and I can almost always get it without dropouts, but almost never can I get that PBS station. Do you think I am some how just out of range of were this signal is being directed? Walter


----------



## jtbell

I'm not going up on my roof to measure my year-old YA-1713, nor can I compare it directly with another antenna, but I do have an anecdotal data point on using it to receive channel 13.


The station in question is WLOS in Asheville NC, which has its transmitter on top of a high mountain so I have LOS to it even though I'm 82 miles away. It's currently using analog 13 and digital 56, and will move digital to 13 (about 30 kW) after analog shutdown.


I was worried a bit about my future reception on digital 13 because of the reported deficiency of the YA-1713 on that channel, and because WLOS's digital service contour will shrink in my direction when they move from 56 to 13. Instead of being right on the service contour as I am now, I'll be several miles outside.


Two weeks ago, WLOS did a middle-of-the-night test in which they shut down both analog 13 and digital 56, and fired up digital 13 for about an hour. I was very pleased with the results, getting a good strong signal in the 90% ballpark on all my DTV tuners, pretty much in line with what I've been getting on 56 with my 91XG.


Analog 13 (178 kW) isn't quite as good as 7 (WSPA) which is stronger (265 kW) and closer (53 miles), but it's still pretty good, just a little bit of noise that isn't visible at normal viewing distance.


----------



## Digital Rules

jtbell,


I'm not sure who to believe. The YA-1713 looks good according to the Winegard specs.(10.3 db gain over reference dipole). The HDTV primer shows quite a deficit at the right edge of frequency. How does channel 13 analog look to you? My analog channel 13 is a little snowy, but plagued with electrical interference from nearby power lines. My digital channel 13 will be @ only 9.8 kw-omni @ 40 miles. Not sure what to expect after the switch.


Anybody out there have much personal experience with channel 13 issues on the YA-1713? Is the Antennacraft noticably better?


Thanks, Glen


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/15693782
> 
> 
> I was worried a bit about my future reception on digital 13 because of the reported deficiency of the YA-1713 on that channel, and because WLOS's digital service contour will shrink in my direction when they move from 56 to 13. Instead of being right on the service contour as I am now, I'll be several miles outside.
> 
> 
> Two weeks ago, WLOS did a middle-of-the-night test in which they shut down both analog 13 and digital 56, and fired up digital 13 for about an hour. I was very pleased with the results, getting a good strong signal in the 90% ballpark on all my DTV tuners, pretty much in line with what I've been getting on 56 with my 91XG.



Here's another data point. I have a YA-1713 mounted outdoors, about 10 feet high just above the roof line and about 30" below a 91XG on the same mast. Our antennas are fixed at about 120º toward the main Austin cluster. The tower for KAKW (channel 62.1, digital RF 13) is 40 miles away at a direction of 92º.


With the antenna skewed almost 30º from the channel 13 transmitter and a distance of 40 hilly miles between us, with my tuner (a D* HR20-700) the signal regularly comes in at 90-95%.


----------



## gjvrieze

God, I cannot wait to get my Funke psp.1922... Cannot wait to see what it does for my super weak area... I have a channel 9 and 11 at 78 miles, tropo on tvfool, with horrible terrain and a channel 13 from 86 miles also tropo on tvfool, but much more open for a few miles before hitting the hills and the station on 13 I am after, is a 2000ft tower.... I can measure and post the specs of the YA-1713, once I switch it out with the Funke....


----------



## cunni131

Question I'm hoping someone can help me answer. What pre-amp should I add to my DB4 antenna?


I have DB4 UHF antenna mounted in my attic that does not have a preamp. I plan to connect it to an HD tuner that, according to the manual, doesn't have built in gain/amplification and requires an "amplified antenna" to receive off-air signals. (It's an ATI TV Wonder 650 HDTV tuner card for Media Center.) I've tested this statement and found it to be true. Without amplification, the tuner picks up very little. Hooked up to a friends amplified antenna it picked up all my stations clearly.


I'm only interested in main local channels and, according to the TVFool.com analysis of the stations in my area (attached,) all the main locals are located within 15 miles of me at ~70 degrees and all but one will be transmitting in UHF after the switch in Feb.


I was thinking the Channel Master 7777 or 7778, or the Winegard AP-8700. I've spent some time reading through the threads and have only confused myself further with discussions of overloading, separate VHF/UHF preamps versus combined, etc.


This HD tuner will be the only tuner connected to the antenna, but there is a remote possibility I will split it to two locations in the far future. Currently the tuner will be connected to the antenna via 70ft of RG6 cable.


Does anyone have a suggestion beyond the preamps I'm considering? Thanks for your help.


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cunni131* /forum/post/15699296
> 
> 
> Question I'm hoping someone can help me answer. What pre-amp should I add to my DB4 antenna?
> 
> 
> I have DB4 UHF antenna mounted in my attic that does not have a preamp. I plan to connect it to an HD tuner that, according to the manual, doesn't have built in gain/amplification and requires an "amplified antenna" to receive off-air signals. (It's an ATI TV Wonder 650 HDTV tuner card for Media Center.) I've tested this statement and found it to be true. Without amplification, the tuner picks up very little. Hooked up to a friends amplified antenna it picked up all my stations clearly.
> 
> 
> I'm only interested in main local channels and, according to the TVFool.com analysis of the stations in my area (attached,) all the main locals are located within 15 miles of me at ~70 degrees and all but one will be transmitting in UHF after the switch in Feb.
> 
> 
> I was thinking the Channel Master 7777 or 7778, or the Winegard AP-8700. I've spent some time reading through the threads and have only confused myself further with discussions of overloading, separate VHF/UHF preamps versus combined, etc.
> 
> 
> This HD tuner will be the only tuner connected to the antenna, but there is a remote possibility I will split it to two locations in the far future. Currently the tuner will be connected to the antenna via 70ft of RG6 cable.
> 
> 
> Does anyone have a suggestion beyond the preamps I'm considering? Thanks for your help.



Maybe a Winegard AP-8700, but to be safe, go with a Winegard HDP-269, that will be sure not to overload on your strong signals... Gut says that the 8700 would be fine....


----------



## cunni131




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* /forum/post/15699334
> 
> 
> Maybe a Winegard AP-8700, but to be safe, go with a Winegard HDP-269, that will be sure not to overload on your strong signals... Gut says that the 8700 would be fine....



Thanks *gjvrieze*. I'll take a look at the Winegard HDP-269. I keep falling into the mental trap that a little higher gain (18.7dB UHF gain on the 8700 vs. 12dB UHF gain for the HDP-269) would be better to overcome the loss from being an attic antenna, and the tuner not having any gain/amplification of its own.


What I'm having trouble understanding is where the dBmV comes into play, leading to possible overloading. It's more than 10dBmV higher on the HDP-269 (39dBmV UHF on the 8700 vs. 49.5dBmV UHF gain for the HDP-269.) Several posts by *holl_ands* prompted a lot of discussion about the topic, but I'm having some difficulty understanding how to use his spreadsheet.


I guess it's just my obsessive nature, but I'm determined to better understand the whole topic.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/15694746
> 
> 
> How does channel 13 analog look to you?



Here are some samples from my YA-1713 by way of a DVD recorder (XP mode):


Channel 13 is 178 kW at 82 miles.


Channel 7 is 265 kW at 53 miles.


And just for fun, channel 4 is 100 kW at 60 miles (remember this is a high-VHF antenna). There's usually more impulse noise on this channel, but I was lucky this morning.


I have line of sight to all three transmitters.


----------



## ctdish

If you already have the antenna try it without a preamp. You have a large number of huge signals and even if the tunner card is relatively deaf you should be able to receive OK. If you do try a preamp get the lowest gain one you can find, although it may overload anyway and an overloaded preamp is worse than no preamp.

You are showing a couple of VHF channels in your area. The DB 2 and 4 are designed only for UHF. One of the new combo VHF high/UHF antennas may be a better match for your location.

John




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cunni131* /forum/post/15699296
> 
> 
> Question I'm hoping someone can help me answer. What pre-amp should I add to my DB4 antenna?
> 
> 
> I have DB4 UHF antenna mounted in my attic that does not have a preamp. I plan to connect it to an HD tuner that, according to the manual, doesn't have built in gain/amplification and requires an "amplified antenna" to receive off-air signals. (It's an ATI TV Wonder 650 HDTV tuner card for Media Center.) I've tested this statement and found it to be true. Without amplification, the tuner picks up very little. Hooked up to a friends amplified antenna it picked up all my stations clearly.
> 
> 
> I'm only interested in main local channels and, according to the TVFool.com analysis of the stations in my area (attached,) all the main locals are located within 15 miles of me at ~70 degrees and all but one will be transmitting in UHF after the switch in Feb.
> 
> 
> I was thinking the Channel Master 7777 or 7778, or the Winegard AP-8700. I've spent some time reading through the threads and have only confused myself further with discussions of overloading, separate VHF/UHF preamps versus combined, etc.
> 
> 
> This HD tuner will be the only tuner connected to the antenna, but there is a remote possibility I will split it to two locations in the far future. Currently the tuner will be connected to the antenna via 70ft of RG6 cable.
> 
> 
> Does anyone have a suggestion beyond the preamps I'm considering? Thanks for your help.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I'm not sure who to believe. The YA-1713 looks good according to the Winegard specs.(10.3 db gain over reference dipole). The HDTV primer shows quite a deficit at the right edge of frequency.



Thats the thing, at what point does Winegard measure the channel 13 (or other channel) data, the beginning, middle or end ?


It sounds like everyone posting here so far are using later model YA-1713s. Its good to know channel 13 performance is better than the model shows. At VHF-HI frequencies, small changes in the build can skew the gain curve for the distance of 6 mhz (14%) on an antenna designed for 42 mhz bandwidth. Too bad there isnt a channel that goes from 216 mhz to 222 mhz or higher, so the real drop off point could be determined.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/15701885
> 
> 
> Channel 13 is 178 kW at 82 miles.
> 
> 
> Channel 7 is 265 kW at 53 miles.
> 
> 
> I have line of sight to all three transmitters.



Wow, they look pretty good!! My channel 13 doesn't look nearly as good at only 40 miles with 316 kw. TV FOOL lists it as LOS now(was 2 edge a month ago), but my antenna is level with the ground only 1 street away. I'm basically pointing right into a gradual incline for about an 1/8th of a mile. For some reason TV FOOL doesn't seem accurate for my location anymore???


Anyone else noticed a change?


----------



## jns82

As requested, I have attached my pre and post-transition TV Fool Report and a picture of my current antenna. For background purposes: I am located in rural Alabama, in a relatively low part of the landscape. I currently have a rooftop mounted directional old-style conventional antenna (see picture) on a rotor with a Radio Shack mast mounted preamp. The antenna feeds two tv's; I have a splitter after the preamp. I have worked to ensure no other splitters or coupling in the cables.


There are three channels (networks) we are interested in receiving; channel 15 (WRBL-41 miles, 115 deg), channel 9 (WTVM-41 miles, 115 deg), and channel 12 (WSFA-58 miles, 227 deg). Through mast rotation, I receive WRBL (88% digital tuner strength) and WTVM (35%, sporadic signal) digitally, but not WSFA (15 to 20%). WSFA is located in Montgomery (227 deg), WRBL and WTVM are in Columbus, GA (115 deg). Thus, the stations with problems are WSFA (pre 14, post 12) and WTVM (47,9). Post-transition, I will need VHF (WTVM and WSFA) and UHF (WRBL).


My questions: 1) will a new antenna (e.g. DB8 etc) likely improve this situation significantly compared to what I have, 2) is an omnidirectional even a possibility for functioning here (considering the spread of 115 vs 227 degrees), and 3) any suggestions on which antenna I should obtain? Any information greatly appreciated.


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jns82* /forum/post/15703841
> 
> 
> As requested, I have attached my pre and post-transition TV Fool Report and a picture of my current antenna. For background purposes: I am located in rural Alabama, in a relatively low part of the landscape. I currently have a rooftop mounted directional old-style conventional antenna (see picture) on a rotor with a Radio Shack mast mounted preamp. The antenna feeds two tv's; I have a splitter after the preamp. I have worked to ensure no other splitters or coupling in the cables.
> 
> 
> There are three channels (networks) we are interested in receiving; channel 15 (WRBL-41 miles, 115 deg), channel 9 (WTVM-41 miles, 115 deg), and channel 12 (WSFA-58 miles, 227 deg). Through mast rotation, I receive WRBL (88% digital tuner strength) and WTVM (35%, sporadic signal) digitally, but not WSFA (15 to 20%). WSFA is located in Montgomery (227 deg), WRBL and WTVM are in Columbus, GA (115 deg). Thus, the stations with problems are WSFA (pre 14, post 12) and WTVM (47,9). Post-transition, I will need VHF (WTVM and WSFA) and UHF (WRBL).
> 
> 
> My questions: 1) will a new antenna (e.g. DB8 etc) likely improve this situation significantly compared to what I have, 2) is an omnidirectional even a possibility for functioning here (considering the spread of 115 vs 227 degrees), and 3) any suggestions on which antenna I should obtain? Any information greatly appreciated.



First, your antenna is a small-mid range antenna, not a deep fringe, which is needed... No omni will work with signals that are as low as yours... I would say go with a 91XG mounted 4ft over a YA-1713, with a CM7777 amp, but I am little worried about WELL-FM (60kW) and WSTH-FM (86kW) being somewhere between 8-12 miles from you... Could you post your fmfool results as well... With the setup, I described, you could get all of the stations in the red, prolly with ease....(just need to check the signals on FM, to make sure a 7777 would not overload...)


----------



## jns82




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* /forum/post/15703888
> 
> 
> First, your antenna is a small-mid range antenna, not a deep fringe, which is needed... No omni will work with signals that are as low as yours... I would say go with a 91XG mounted 4ft over a YA-1713, with a CM7777 amp, but I am little worried about WELL-FM (60kW) and WSTH-FM (86kW) being somewhere between 8-12 miles from you... Could you post your fmfool results as well... With the setup, I described, you could get all of the stations in the red, prolly with ease....(just need to check the signals on FM, to make sure a 7777 would not overload...)



Thanks for the quick advice. Question, considering WRBL (post-transition 15) will be the only UHF station of interest, and I receive it with my current set up at 88-90% signal strength (it's my best channel), do you think I would be able to get by with just the YA-1713 (and still get this UHF station) on a rotating mast with preamp (CM7777 or similar). I understand this antenna is good for high end VHF (which will be good for 9 and 12) , but I read it has some UHF capacity? Any advice greatly appreciated-


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *willscary* /forum/post/15691984
> 
> 
> Hollands,
> 
> 
> thanks for the great post! Along the same lines, would it be possible for you to show us how the YA-1713 compares to a Funke PSP.1922? I would love to see the two of them head to head, as I have owned both.
> 
> 
> Bill



I can't even "see" it....Funke changed their website...and only lists a couple antennas!!!!


If you are asking if I could model it, I would need precise measurements and photos.


----------



## willscary

gjvrieze,


Any chance of you taking some measurements before you mount yours????


Mine are 43' up!


Bill


By the way, here is a link for the original specs page:

http://www.funke.nl/library/1190_098...e3962619c17526


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jns82* /forum/post/15704600
> 
> 
> Thanks for the quick advice. Question, considering WRBL (post-transition 15) will be the only UHF station of interest, and I receive it with my current set up at 88-90% signal strength (it's my best channel), do you think I would be able to get by with just the YA-1713 (and still get this UHF station) on a rotating mast with preamp (CM7777 or similar). I understand this antenna is good for high end VHF (which will be good for 9 and 12) , but I read it has some UHF capacity? Any advice greatly appreciated-



No way that the YA-1713 would get WRBL, that signal is not that strong (and the VHF to UHF HUGE loss!), if you want to keep the price down a bit, get a YA-1713 for VHF and use your old antenna for UHF, separated by the CM7777 amp which takes a separate VHF and UHF antennas or a combined.... You could even aim the separate antennas in different directions, if that would help cut down on the amount of rotoring that you have to do... (would make using the rotator control weird, as one antenna would line up with what it shows and other would be xxx degrees off)

Channels 7,9, and 12 are weak enough, they need some good measures to get reliably....


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15705070
> 
> 
> I can't even "see" it....Funke changed their website...and only lists a couple antennas!!!!
> 
> 
> If you are asking if I could model it, I would need precise measurements and photos.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *willscary* /forum/post/15705478
> 
> 
> gjvrieze,
> 
> 
> Any chance of you taking some measurements before you mount yours????
> 
> 
> Mine are 43' up!
> 
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
> By the way, here is a link for the original specs page:
> 
> http://www.funke.nl/library/1190_098...e3962619c17526



Yes, I will get tons of pictures and measurements indoors first.. It is winter here in MN, and I need to find the correct safety belt before installing it


----------



## rabbit73

Well, guys, my moment of truth has arrived. Here are my measurements of digital and analog signals using both a digital and an analog signal level meter (SLM).


Because my wife and my friends were VERY generous to me at Christmas, I am now able to compare readings from my Sadelco 719E with readings from a DisplayMax 800.











I wanted to do this before the transition while I still had a good selection of digital and analog signals coming from Norfolk. I picked 6 signals, 3 digital and 3 analog. The virtual number indicates digital. The measurements, including the ones for CH13, were made using a CM4221 antenna. I used a splitter to make simultaneous readings on both meters because OTA signals don't stay at the same level.

Code:


Code:


Channel        719E     800
               dBmV     dBmV
  13           -9.5     -11.4
  16(15.1)     -0.5     +2.9
  27           +6.8     +4.5
  31(10.1)     -0.5     +1.2
  43           +9.5     +7.6
  50(27.1)     -2.8     -2.3

And as a chart:










> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/14236123
> 
> 
> ...you can use an inexpensive analog signal meter and add 8dB to whatever it says the signal level is. I often use a Leader LF941 analog signal meter with a digital display when working on digital antenna reception because it weighs less than my other meters. You can get an analog (NTSC) signal meter...with a digital readout for $200 or less. You can even do the job with a clunker with a rotary dial and a needle meter for maybe $10 to $30.
> 
> 
> On the other hand, if someone wants to use a meter to aid in developing quality antenna reception in a poor reception environment with multipath, the signal strength measurement, which just becomes an extrapolation of the signal level at and around 1.25 MHz above the lower channel band edge, does not show the signal quality the way that a spectrum analyzer can. If you are getting nailed by multipath, the waveform will usually have a big notch in it, whereas if it is pure, it will be a level plateau.



The chart gives me the corrections needed to make correct readings of digital signals with my analog signal SLM, but I'm really not too concerned about corrections because I mostly use my SLM for comparative readings to aim antennas, compare antennas, and find the "hot spot" location for an antenna. These comparisons rely on the the linearity of my meter which is easy to check by inserting a 20dB attenuator to see if the reading drops by 20dB.


The corrections are the result of differences in the calibration of the SLMs, the tolerance allowed for each SLM, and the fact that analog signals are measured with a peak value of the video and sound carriers and digital signals are measured with an average value across most of the 6MHz channel. Sadelco says in the manual that two 800 meters can differ by as much as 2dB and still be in spec.


My 719E is reading too high on digital *and* analog signals because it is off calibration on both. If it were on calibration the red line would be lower all across the chart, its readings of analog signals would be the same as the 800 readings, and its readings of digital signals would be a lot lower. This would make it necessary to add a positive correction to the 719E reading for digital signals, which is what it is supposed to be. It was just a matter of luck that both meters were fairly close together.


The engineers at Potomac Instruments seem to think it's OK to measure digital signals with an analog signal meter if the proper corrections are applied: http://www.pi-usa.com/pdf/dtva.pdf 


Highdefjeff seems to think it's OK to use an analog signal meter to measure digital signals (He is talking about digital signals coming from a satellite, but the digital signals coming from a terrestrial transmitting tower are similar). To quote him:


> Quote:
> Here I am in the digital world suggesting that you use an "older" analog type meter. Sounds wrong, doesn't it? It's not. Let me explain "why?" starting with a little background.
> 
> 
> What If I asked you "Why are you using a digital meter to read an analog signal?" Many of you would say I'm full of "it", or I couldn't be talking about satellite signal. But, I am talking about satellite signal, the signal at the "front end" that you measure is analog. That's another story, and you can read about it: www.designlinenetwork.com


 http://www.wowvision.tv/signal%20meters.htm 
http://www.wowvision.tv/signal_strength_meters_BER.htm 
http://www.wowvision.tv/HDglossary.htm 
http://www.wowvision.tv / Home


To anyone who thinks that an analog SLM couldn't possibly be of any use for digital signals I say: Try it for yourself first.


----------



## MikeBiker

Interesting that the 800 gave higher readings than the 719E did on the digital encoded signals (average value) and lower readings on the analog signals (peak value).


----------



## videobruce

The 2db difference with analog is understandable, what I don't understand is the lack of difference between meters with a digital signal.

FWIW, I never stated that a analog meter _couldn't_ be used for digital, only that the readings won't be correct because of the way it measures those signals.


----------



## rabbit73

The readings of the digital signals with the 800 are *supposed* to be higher than the readings with the 719E. This is because digital makes more efficient use of the 6MHz bandwidth and is why digital transmitters can use less power for the same coverage area. The broadcasters are looking forward to lower electric bills, and the back-up generators can be smaller.


Take a look at pp 1-4 of Analyzing the Signal Quality of NTSC and ATSC Television RF Signals: http://www.sencore.com/uploads/files...RF_Signals.pdf 


And look at the spectrum analyzer displays of NTSC & ATSC signals in fig. 6 & 7 of:
http://www.popular-communications.co...asWeb92708.pdf


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> The readings of the digital signals with the 800 are supposed to be higher than the readings with the 719E.



But, on average they are only _*2*_db higher, not 8-15 which I and others have reported.


> Quote:
> My 719E is reading too high on digital and analog signals



And that would bring the difference to around 4db instead of 2.

I will do another comparision between my two digital SLM's and my analog meter and will post back. The orginal comparision was with another digital DLM which wasn't mine. That was where I saw the 8-15db difference that I also read shortly after I did the compairison.


That last quote wasn't meant towards you. It was meant to anyone that might suggest I said otherwise.


----------



## rabbit73

What confuses the issue is that we have learned that the output voltage of a simple diode peak detector is higher than one designed for average or RMS. This leads us to the wrong conclusion about NTSC vs ATSC signals because we are measuring power (which is what dB is all about), not voltage and it doesn't take into consideration bandwidth or the efficiency of different modulation systems. Hams know that SSB(SC) is much more efficient than AM. With PSK31 you work the world very near the noise level with only 20 watts.


If I still don't have it right, I defer to *holl_ands*, who can give a much better explanation.


I recorded the readings as I saw them. It's not good science to "fudge" the figures. This is a *Science* forum, isn't it?


You are perfectly free to draw your own conclusions based on the data that I have presented. Or, better yet, you can run your own test with your own equipment, and post the results here.


As far as I'm concerned, this test proves that an analog SLM can be very useful when dealing with digital signals, which is what I set out to prove. Or, as my math teacher used to say, QED.


----------



## videobruce

I think one possible problem or issue, is what the sampling width is set for with a digital SLM. On my Tektronix RFM151, I can change it to whatever I want. Tek. states "the channel edge should be one half of the channel width" which makes it the full 6MHz. Anaolg is set for -1.25 MHz and digital itn would be set for -3 MHz.


What I now question is how the pilot affects the overall level. For QAM, it doesn't matter, since there is no pilot, but for 8VSB there is. If a meter that is set for a slightly narrower width to exclude the pilot, I would assume it would affect the reading. I would further assume it would be lower than another meter set for the full width.


----------



## mr100watt

I apologize if this topic has been discussed.


I have been using with my Insignia CECB (to analog tv's and vcrs) antennas that consist of either a separate UHF antenna or a VHF antenna. With the exception of reception in one room, I am able to receive the broadcast of every major station (I live in the suburbs of a large metro area, on the middle floor of a multilevel apt. building.) I do have to ensure that the antennas are positioned exactly to avoid signal dropout or pixillation. My UHF antennas consist of an unamplified Radio Shack grid-type structure I bought years ago, also have a loop for another tv. The VHF antennas simply consist of pull out full length rabbit ear dipoles, easy to reposition.


I thought that since transmission of digital signals is UHF related, that a VHF antenna wouldn't be effective, but I have not found that to be the case.


Would the Zenith ZHDTV1Z antenna be overkill for my use? I don't have HDTV television sets, and the sets are all more than 5 years old. I am looking at getting a stronger antenna if I find that I am getting too many signal dropouts. (Also, when I begin using my Zinwell CECB 950-A which allows for station changing for recording, I may need a better overall antenna to pick up stronger signals given that the antenna will be one position for this recording when I am away.)


So, to summarize, I have found that the use of EITHER, a separate dipole rabbit ears, or, a separate stand alone UHF antenna, has been sufficient if receiving both VHF and UHF stations with the use of the Insignia CECB. How can this be given the discussion of needing both VHF and UHF antennas?


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mr100watt* /forum/post/15717043
> 
> 
> I thought that since transmission of digital signals is UHF related, that a VHF antenna wouldn't be effective, but I have not found that to be the case.



Basically, UHF antennas are optimzed for UHF reception and VHF antennas are optimized for VHF reception, but there is some crossover. With the upcoming DTV transition, many cities will have UHF only, but some cities will still have both UHF and VHF.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mr100watt* /forum/post/15717043
> 
> 
> Would the Zenith ZHDTV1Z antenna be overkill for my use?



It certainly wouldn't be overkill, but it may or may not be the antenna for you. The first thing I would suggest is to checkout AntennaWeb and TVFool . Both of these web sites will show you what stations are available in your area, how far they are from you, and whether they are UHF or VHF. This is very useful information and should assist you in choosing and aiming your antennas.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mr100watt* /forum/post/15717043
> 
> 
> So, to summarize, I have found that the use of EITHER, a separate dipole rabbit ears, or, a separate stand alone UHF antenna, has been sufficient if receiving both VHF and UHF stations with the use of the Insignia CECB. How can this be given the discussion of needing both VHF and UHF antennas?



In reference to your other questions, please checkout the following thread which is dedicated to indoor antennas and should answer a lot of questions.

EV's Best Top Rated HDTV Indoor Antenna Review Test Round-Up Guide


----------



## l2le

I have been having drop outs on 7.1 digital and Analog 7 has a lot of pixilation. Now I am starting to get dropouts on other channels too. It is not too bad during the day, but the evening is miserable.


But....I just noticed something else about 7.1! My Mitsubishi that is hooked up with red, white, yellow connecters to an AV modulator then to a Panny DMR EZ475 gets 7.1 just fine! It also receives analog channel 7 with no problem. I tried looking for a signal, but the DMR won't display it due to the single RF on the Mits.


Now, I wonder if 7 and 7.1 are having problems due to something touching??? Due to converter boxes? Due to a bad connector???? This is the Panasonic TV that is hooked up to a Zinwell ZAT-950A, a Panny DMR-EZ48V, a Dish 501PVR and a Yamaha V663 Receiver. The Tivax STB-T8 wouldn't keep 7.1 at all and Channel 7.1 is broadcasting at 280W and is only 16 miles from my home.


I should get my new Winegard HD7694 antenna Thursday or Friday and will hook it up Saturday, and I will also recheck my connections on my Panasonic TV to see if something is loose or missing or something. Looks like it may NOT be the antenna strength....Oh Well, I wanted to spend some money anyway......LOL


----------



## willscary

gjvrieze,


Here is the low power analog WEAU with the Funke at 112 miles.











This is actually watchable. I think it looks worse because I am so close to the TV. The sound is perfectly clear and in stereo.


Bill


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *willscary* /forum/post/15739669
> 
> 
> gjvrieze,
> 
> 
> Here is the low power analog WEAU with the Funke at 112 miles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is actually watchable. I think it looks worse because I am so close to the TV. The sound is perfectly clear and in stereo.
> 
> 
> Bill



Wow that is better then my YA-1713 showed when WEAU-TV was full power...


----------



## ceeaton




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/15541916
> 
> 
> Levels stonger than -40 or so may cause issues with a high gain pre-amp. (The HDP-269 is much more forgiving) My general recommendation is to try the pre-amp with the trap on, then off and see if it makes a difference.



Update:

Ok, I did not order the HDP-269. It doesn't have an FM trap, and I have 2 FM stations stronger than -30dBm, and 8 in the -40 to -50 dBm range. I ordered the AP8700. I'm glad that I did. Without the FM trap, I only picked up my strongest stations. With it on, it works very well. It makes the UHF stations I get from Baltimore almost drop-out free (maybe a few an hour in bad weather), and increases the strength of every other channel I receive without apparent overload problems.


The HDP-269 may have been fine, but at twice the price of the 8700, I figured I'd take the chance with the stronger preamp. I did somewhat cheat; I had someone who would have bought the 8700 off me if it didn't work out...


----------



## 300ohm

rabbit73,


Id be interested in seeing a comparison analysis of your new digital meter compared to the two signal meters on your Apex DT502 CECB.


----------



## rabbit73

I'm interested too, and am working on that.


----------



## 300ohm

Good man !


It seems logical to me that in some future CECB or tuners, that they might include the digital waveform display in with the tuners signal meter. All the hardware (the display etc) is there as well as the digital info coming in over the air. Or am I just dreaming, heh. Or like on cars, they prefer to keep giving us just idiot lights, heh.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler

maybe it's already possible with secret key combinations or some hacks


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15763269
> 
> 
> Good man !
> 
> 
> It seems logical to me that in some future CECB or tuners, that they might include the digital waveform display in with the tuners signal meter. All the hardware (the display etc) is there as well as the digital info coming in over the air. Or am I just dreaming, heh. Or like on cars, they prefer to keep giving us just idiot lights, heh.



Every piece they DONT include saves them money over production of say 1 million units...if a part cost 50 cents that would cost them 500K in profit....

Hardware may be there but it will take hacking to be able to use it (too bad they just cant provide some jack with the signal present.....but again, 10-25cents on the jack and the engineering mods to the PC board?? There goes, ah, profit (straight to China)!


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *l2le* /forum/post/15720459
> 
> 
> I have been having drop outs on 7.1 digital and Analog 7 has a lot of pixilation. Now I am starting to get dropouts on other channels too. It is not too bad during the day, but the evening is miserable.



Curious....how do you get pixelation on an ANALOG channel??? (unless its in their digital STL or sat/network rcvr!)


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/15720385
> 
> 
> Basically, UHF antennas are optimzed for UHF reception and VHF antennas are optimized for VHF reception, but there is some crossover. With the upcoming DTV transition, many cities will have UHF only, but some cities will still have both UHF and VHF.



In Texas and La, it will be a mix of V and U in most markets....those that are High Vs are flash cutting or returning to them....I would not say many or most will be UHF only....


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Hardware may be there but it will take hacking to be able to use it (too bad they just cant provide some jack with the signal present.....but again, 10-25cents on the jack and the engineering mods to the PC board?? There goes, ah, profit (straight to China)!



I know. But look at all the useless extras and options found on typical consumer electronics. It would be nice for a change to include something half way useful. Or maybe theyre paid not to ????


Just like in the case of those cheap portable dvd players with the 7 inch LCD screens. Would it have killed them to include an NTSC tuner in them and charged maybe $10 more ? 5 inch CRT TVs with the tuners sold for $10 on sale. I know NTSC is doomed, but originally when the dvd players came out cheap, there was still a couple of years left. /end rant, heh/


----------



## thejokell

Could someone recommend a good indoor antenna for me? I'm ditching my cable and going back to OTA. Here's my chart:











I'm in a townhouse but the antenna will be on the first floor. There are apartments behind me (3 stories) and trees all around. I already have an RCA ANT537 and a Winegard Sharpshooter 3000, neither of which seem to do the job very well.


Any help? Thanks!


----------



## 300ohm

Theres a thread on this forum that has tons of indoor antenna comparisons. The Radio Shack $3.99 classic bowtie is a pretty high ranking one, heh.


----------



## Intheswamp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *thejokell* /forum/post/15772498
> 
> 
> Could someone recommend a good indoor antenna for me? I'm ditching my cable and going back to OTA. Here's my chart:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm in a townhouse but the antenna will be on the first floor. There are apartments behind me (3 stories) and trees all around. I already have an RCA ANT537 and a Winegard Sharpshooter 3000, neither of which seem to do the job very well.
> 
> 
> Any help? Thanks!



Hmm, looks like the antenna farm is west of northwest of you...what is between you and the farm? The three story apartments? The tvfool results indicate that you should be getting very good reception...unless, of course, you have something blocking the signals. Elevation and height is your friend...if you could snake some coax cable up to an upstairs location. For a simple experiment you could run some coax up the stairs to the 2nd floor and try your existing antennas to see if the extra height helps. Also, be sure that the channel scan that you're doing is for OTA channels.


An outdoor 4-bay CM4421 wouldn't be *too* big...not exactly designer art, but could be concealed in a closet or either "boxed" artistically.


Best wishes,

Ed


----------



## alphanguy

I have decided to purchase a CM4228-HD for my second antenna, as it seems to have the highest gain on UHF channels 14-20 of any other antenna... and the two stations I want from that direction are 15 and 17. I have a digital 18 that would come from the backside, it's 1edge and 28 miles away, no LOS, Noise margin +32.6 ... do you think I will have to worry about adjacent channel interference on 17? And if so, is there some physical barrier one can install to keep signal coming in the backside down to a minimum?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *thejokell* /forum/post/15772498
> 
> 
> Could someone recommend a good indoor antenna for me? I'm ditching my cable and going back to OTA. Here's my chart:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm in a townhouse but the antenna will be on the first floor. There are apartments behind me (3 stories) and trees all around. I already have an RCA ANT537 and a Winegard Sharpshooter 3000, neither of which seem to do the job very well.
> 
> 
> Any help? Thanks!



You have very high signal levels that are no doubt bouncing back and forth

between your surrounding buildings, creating serious multipath.


SS-3000 Sharpshooter should be fairly good at suppressing multipath from

one or two directions, but you are surrounded.....


Unless you are using a new 6th Gen tuner chip (e.g. CECB coupon converter)

the remaining multipath may be more than your DTV can overcome.


SS-3000 also has a high tolerance of strong signal levels, but the built-in

Preamp may still be overloaded.


RCA 537 has a built-in, very high gain Preamp that is readily overloaded.


First try a good NON-amplified antenna....and if no-go, back to cable...


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Intheswamp* /forum/post/15773421
> 
> 
> Hmm, looks like the antenna farm is west of northwest of you...what is between you and the farm? The three story apartments? The tvfool results indicate that you should be getting very good reception...unless, of course, you have something blocking the signals. Elevation and height is your friend...if you could snake some coax cable up to an upstairs location. For a simple experiment you could run some coax up the stairs to the 2nd floor and try your existing antennas to see if the extra height helps. Also, be sure that the channel scan that you're doing is for OTA channels.
> 
> 
> An outdoor 4-bay CM4421 wouldn't be *too* big...not exactly designer art, but could be concealed in a closet or either "boxed" artistically.
> 
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Ed



Winegard HD-4400 has more WAF for indoor use than CM4221:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...ource=googleps


----------



## Jesse31




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alphanguy* /forum/post/15774103
> 
> 
> I have decided to purchase a CM4228-HD for my second antenna, as it seems to have the highest gain on UHF channels 14-20 of any other antenna... and the two stations I want from that direction are 15 and 17. I have a digital 18 that would come from the backside, it's 1edge and 28 miles away, no LOS, Noise margin +32.6 ... do you think I will have to worry about adjacent channel interference on 17? And if so, is there some physical barrier one can install to keep signal coming in the backside down to a minimum?



There are several antennas that have more gain from 14 to 20 than the CM4228-HD


----------



## MikeBiker




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15774589
> 
> 
> You have very high signal levels that are no doubt bouncing back and forth
> 
> between your surrounding buildings, creating serious multipath.
> 
> 
> SS-3000 Sharpshooter should be fairly good at suppressing multipath from
> 
> one or two directions, but you are surrounded.....
> 
> 
> Unless you are using a new 6th Gen tuner chip (e.g. CECB coupon converter)
> 
> the remaining multipath may be more than your DTV can overcome.
> 
> 
> SS-3000 also has a high tolerance of strong signal levels, but the built-in
> 
> Preamp may still be overloaded.
> 
> 
> RCA 537 has a built-in, very high gain Preamp that is readily overloaded.
> 
> 
> First try a good NON-amplified antenna....and if no-go, back to cable...



How about a directional antenna pointed toward the main strong stations, which would reduce the off axis strong signals, with some attenuators inline before the receiver, to reduce the really strong main signals?


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *thejokell* /forum/post/15772498
> 
> 
> I'm in a townhouse but the antenna will be on the first floor.



Is that really necessary? Even a simple single bowtie on the top floor of the house, facing the towers, especially through a window, will likely work better for UHF than anything you can set up on the first floor.


Otherwise, check out the indoor antenna thread. Reject anything amplified. A reflector on the UHF element will be helpful. For VHF, there's not much indoor which does better than rabbit ears, because of space issues.


----------



## thejokell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/15776055
> 
> 
> Is that really necessary? Even a simple single bowtie on the top floor of the house, facing the towers, especially through a window, will likely work better for UHF than anything you can set up on the first floor.
> 
> 
> Otherwise, check out the indoor antenna thread. Reject anything amplified. A reflector on the UHF element will be helpful. For VHF, there's not much indoor which does better than rabbit ears, because of space issues.



Well I rent and can't run new wires. And I don't really want a coax cable coming down loose from the second story.


So far I've only tried amplified solutions - I'll look into unamplified ones.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jesse31* /forum/post/15775106
> 
> 
> There are several antennas that have more gain from 14 to 20 than the CM4228-HD



There's only one that I can think of that is readily available and that would be the Triax Unix 100A. It's a little pricey after paying overseas shipping but worth it IMO if that's what you need.

http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/level5/mo...cpc/253254.xml


----------



## Jesse31




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/15778095
> 
> 
> There's only one that I can think of that is readily available and that would be the Triax Unix 100A. It's a little pricey after paying overseas shipping but worth it IMO if that's what you need.
> 
> http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/level5/mo...cpc/253254.xml



The specs that I can find for the CM4228-HD is RF14 - 11.2db, RF19 - 11.6db

The Winegard PR9018, 9022 & 9032 have higher gain from RF 14 to 20 @ 13.3db to 14.9db...HD7084P, HD8200P, HD9095P, PR7052, HD7697P & HD7698P...ALL of these have higher gain from RF 14 to 20...Have you not seen any of these?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jesse31* /forum/post/15775106
> 
> 
> There are several antennas that have more gain from 14 to 20 than the CM4228-HD



According to these measurements, the Winegard PR-8800 is the winner.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## finlay648




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jesse31* /forum/post/15778871
> 
> 
> The specs that I can find for the CM4228-HD is RF14 - 11.2db, RF19 - 11.6db
> 
> The Winegard PR9018, 9022 & 9032 have higher gain from RF 14 to 20 @ 13.3db to 14.9db...HD7084P, HD8200P, HD9095P, PR7052, HD7697P & HD7698P...ALL of these have higher gain from RF 14 to 20...Have you not seen any of these?



Where have you seen data on the new 4228HD?


----------



## Jesse31




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *finlay648* /forum/post/15779898
> 
> 
> Where have you seen data on the new 4228HD?



Right here:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...t=95467&page=5


----------



## Jesse31




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/15779769
> 
> 
> According to these measurements, the Winegard PR-8800 is the winner.
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html



That PR-8800 has a nice flat curve.


----------



## alphanguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/15779769
> 
> 
> According to these measurements, the Winegard PR-8800 is the winner.
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html



According to that HDTVprimer comparison chart, the Winegard pr-9032 has a gain at channel 14 of 10db... the technical specs at solid signal's website give the gain for that model at channel 14 at 14.9 db.... which one is telling the truth?


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alphanguy* /forum/post/15783023
> 
> 
> According to that HDTVprimer comparison chart, the Winegard pr-9032 has a gain at channel 14 of 10db... the technical specs at solid signal's website give the gain for that model at channel 14 at 14.9 db.... which one is telling the truth?



Depends on what they are comparing it with....10db vs WHAT???? there SHOULD be an i or d after the db.....dbi is referenced to an non existant, theoretical antenna that radiates equally in all directions (doesnt exist in real life)....dbd references to a 1/2wave dipole which radiates in a figure 8 pattern broadside and around the dipole itself...

Any else (db) can be reference to a piece of spaghetti as far as we know....

unless the gain figures show dbi (which is 2.15db higher than dbd) or dbd, you cannot really take the figures given as fact!


----------



## alphanguy

According to Winegard's website, the pr-9032's gain at channel 14 over a referenced dipole is 14.9. According to the HDTVprimer chart, the pr-9032's gain at channel 14 is 10dbi, or 8 dbd. I'm like.... WTF?


----------



## dobyken

I dumped DirecTV and am using OTA, Hulu, and Netflix for all my TV viewing. I currently have a 4228 (old model) mounted on a 30 ft tower with a rotator and AP8275 preamp. My location is Zip 34436 which is located about 60 north of Tampa and 45 miles south of Ocala. Without the amp I can get a total of 2 stations which are WTSP in Tampa and WOGX in Ocala both are about 45 miles away but in opposite directions. With the amp I can get a few more stations from Tampa but have trouble with NBC. Most of the Tampa stations are 60 miles at 177deg. I sometimes have better luck locking onto the Orlando NBC (WESH) than I do WLFA in Tampa. At night I can pick up many channels from Orlando which is about 75 miles away.

I use a HDHomeRun connected to a Windows 7 Media Center which requires 2 inputs. Since stations are in 3 different directions tuning becomes a problem when you're using a PVR. I was thinking of either adding another antenna and pointing it in another direction or possibly stacking a second 4228. I was also thinking of replacing the splitter with distribution amp but the signal strength on most of the stations are high (90-100) but the signal quality is running 50-70% which I think means that I'm amplifying noise. I'm open for suggestions on what to try next.


----------



## wmbjr

I was wondering if you would suggest the Winegard hdp-269 or the ap8700 for my situation. I get decent signal from my antenna when it is run to one television. The problem is it needs to be split and run to 3 more with runs of 20, 30, and 50 feet. I am thinking the hdp-269 may be the best given the fairly strong signals I have, but wanted to check to be sure. Attached are my fmfool and tvfool plots. Thanks for any advice.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wmbjr* /forum/post/15784619
> 
> 
> I was wondering if you would suggest the Winegard hdp-269 or the ap8700 for my situation.



One thing is clear, you need an FM trap. If you opt for the HDP-269, an external trap is called for.


The other question is what stations are you trying to receive? The green stations are strong enough to be split even without a preamp. The pink stations will need a preamp. The HDP-269 does not have enought gain for the weaker pink stations. The FM trap in the AP-8700 doesn't have as much rejection of FM stations as a stand-alone trap such as the FT7500. The FT7500 will not allow you to receive channel 6.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alphanguy* /forum/post/15783023
> 
> 
> According to that HDTVprimer comparison chart, the Winegard pr-9032 has a gain at channel 14 of 10db... the technical specs at solid signal's website give the gain for that model at channel 14 at 14.9 db.... which one is telling the truth?



The HDTV primer used computer analysis to determine gain. Computer analysis is excellent, but not perfect. HDTV primer has no reason to inflate the numbers.


The Winegard data gives both gain and beamwidth. Gain is related to beamwidth and front to back ratio. Yet, the antenna pattern and gain do not track as you move down to channel 14. Winegard sells more antennas if they inflate their gain numbers.


Based on Winegard's beamwidth and F/B ratio data, I believe that HDTV primer is more likely to be correct.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dobyken* /forum/post/15784287
> 
> 
> With the amp I can get a few more stations from Tampa but have trouble with NBC.



That's probably because NBC (WFLA) is using a VHF channel (7) for its digital signal. The 4228 is unusual among UHF antennas for being able to receive high-VHF channels (7-13) fairly well, but it's not comparable to an an antenna that's actually designed for VHF, especially in fringe areas like yours (and mine).


WESH out of Tampa / Daytona Beach is also on VHF (11).


If you're going to add a second antenna, you might consider a high-VHF only antenna like the Winegard YA-1713, specifically to improve those VHF stations.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dobyken* /forum/post/15784287
> 
> 
> My location is Zip 34436 ...have trouble with NBC.... possibly stacking a second 4228.



The 4228 has one VHF channel where it is deficient, channel 7. Your NBC is on channel 7.


I'd try a Winegard HD7698P for Tampa and aim the 4228 elsewhere.


----------



## wmbjr

I am only looking to get the green stations. I unfortunately am fighting through some trees and it is an attic install (as dictated by the DW) so my situation is not quite as easy as it seems. I am able to get good stable reception with one television or even with a single 2 output splitter, but I cannot get stable reception on the 2 farthest televisions once they are split again. The main problems I am having are with real channels 39 and 47, but also occasionally with 8 and 10.


Would I be better off getting something like the CM3414 distribution amp and hooking it up to only the offending television runs and leaving the others alone?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wmbjr* /forum/post/15786186
> 
> 
> I am only looking to get the green stations.



That suggests an HDP-269 with the external FM trap. The AP-8700 would work if the tunable trap were adjusted to minimize the strongest FM station.


----------



## wmbjr

Last question . . . I think . . . would you recommend the ft7500 as the trap to get or is there one that I am likely to find locally (such as radio shack) that will work as well? Thanks.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wmbjr* /forum/post/15786482
> 
> 
> Is there a trap that I am likely to find locally?



Then Radio Shack web site doesn't show any FM traps. Yours may have one sitting around from years ago.


If you have an electronic parts store nearby you can call and ask.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jesse31* /forum/post/15778871
> 
> 
> The specs that I can find for the CM4228-HD is RF14 - 11.2db, RF19 - 11.6db
> 
> The Winegard PR9018, 9022 & 9032 have higher gain from RF 14 to 20 @ 13.3db to 14.9db...HD7084P, HD8200P, HD9095P, PR7052, HD7697P & HD7698P...ALL of these have higher gain from RF 14 to 20...Have you not seen any of these?



Specs/models showing another db here or there are worth about as much as the paper they are printed on.







I can tell you from experience that both the 8200P and the 9032 are poorer performers than the 4228 for low uhf.


To get noticeably better performance for lo UHF than the 4228 you'll need to either go with a dedicated low uhf antenna (for example the Triax 100A) or stack antennas for additional gain.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/15788552
> 
> 
> Specs/models showing another db here or there are worth about as much as the paper they are printed on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can tell you from experience that both the 8200P and the 9032 are poorer performers than the 4228 for low uhf.
> 
> 
> To get noticeably better performance for lo UHF than the 4228 you'll need to either go with a dedicated low uhf antenna (for example the Triax 100A) or stack antennas for additional gain.



Have you had any contact lately with cpc? Looks like they are getting out of the antenna hardware business.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/15788552
> 
> 
> To get noticeably better performance for lo UHF than the 4228 you'll need to either go with a dedicated low uhf antenna (for example the Triax 100A) or stack antennas for additional gain.



Or both.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/15788739
> 
> 
> Have you had any contact lately with cpc? Looks like they are getting out of the antenna hardware business.



It's been a little over a year since I've bought anything from them. I noticed the same thing as you when searching their website recently.


It may soon be necessary to look for another source for Euro antennas. Bummer if that is the case.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15750731
> 
> 
> rabbit73,
> 
> 
> Id be interested in seeing a comparison analysis of your new digital meter compared to the two signal meters on your Apex DT502 CECB.



Here is the comparison for my Apex DT502. Most of the signal level readings were made with the DisplayMax 800, but I added a few from the 719E for comparison or when the level was too low for the 800. The specs for the 800 say that it can read digital down to -23dBmV. When the level is too low for it, the display says "Ur." which means Under Range. I used the same box #1 as last time, first in a strong signal location:

Code:


Code:


Attenuator    Quality     Strength      DM800     719E
   dB            %            %         dBmV      dBmV

    0           100           84       +14.1      +12.5
    3           100           84       +11.2
    6           100           84        +7.6
    9           100           83        +4.8
   12           100           80        +2.5
   15           100           75        -0.8
   18           100           72        -4.6
   21           100           67        -7.7
   24           100           64       -10.2
   27           100           60       -12.8
   30           100           56       -14.9
   33           100           53       -17.1
   36           100           47         Ur.      -23.0
   39           100           42                  -27.2
   42           100           37                  -28.5
   45            66           27                  -35
   48            34            0

The OTA readings seemed to vary a bit that day, probably because of the strong wind through the trees that are in the signal path.


and then in a weak signal location:
Code:


Code:


Attenuator    Quality     Strength      DM800     719E
   dB            %            %         dBmV      dBmV

    0           100           62       -14.1     -17.5
    3           100           54       -16.3
    6           100           49       -18.4
    9           100           44         Ur.     -26.0
   12            99           37                 -29.5
   15            81           32                 -35
   18            21            0                 -38
   21                                      Dropout

I think that all CECBs should have two signal bars because of the importance of signal QUALITY for digital reception. So far, I have tested the Zinwell ZAT-970A, the Apex DT502, and the Sansonic FT300A. My first choice as a measurement tool is the Apex. The Zinwell and Sansonic don't always give consistent readings for the same input, and the Sansonic bars take a long time to respond to changes.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Where is a good source for European Antennas? Ive been looking, but cant find anything.


----------



## alphanguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/15788552
> 
> 
> Specs/models showing another db here or there are worth about as much as the paper they are printed on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can tell you from experience that both the 8200P and the 9032 are poorer performers than the 4228 for low uhf.
> 
> 
> To get noticeably better performance for lo UHF than the 4228 you'll need to either go with a dedicated low uhf antenna (for example the Triax 100A) or stack antennas for additional gain.




Though it's not another db here and there.. the difference between specs from one to the other was 5 db! So, I guess your'e basically saying Winegard is lying about that model by 5 db? So I guess according to the HDTV primer data, that the pr-8800 is the one to get... unless you think the redesigned 4228 will outdo it? I couldn't understand that gain chart you posted for the triax 100a..... there's 3 curves on it? And it only shows data down to channel 21, I'm looking for data from channels 14-20.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alphanguy* /forum/post/15790998
> 
> 
> Though it's not another db here and there.. the difference between specs from one to the other was 5 db! So, I guess your'e basically saying Winegard is lying about that model by 5 db? So I guess according to the HDTV primer data, that the pr-8800 is the one to get... unless you think the redesigned 4228 will outdo it? I couldn't understand that gain chart you posted for the triax 100a..... there's 3 curves on it? And it only shows data down to channel 21, I'm looking for data from channels 14-20.



The 4228 or XG91 are probably your best bets for a domestically available long range wide band uhf antenna.


The UK channel 21 is equivalent to US channel 14. In the UK "Band A" is 21-37 while in the US the equivalent is 14-36. The 100A is good up to about US channel 38 and then it starts dropping like a rock. I've never seen a gain chart/graph for the Triax Unix 100A. Triax simply quotes the gain as 17db.


The Funke site has a chart for their band A model which should be roughly equivalent:

http://www.funke.nl/library/225_1420...8fd92772d6fb15 


UK channel frequencies and grouping:

http://www.tvaerials.com/uk_frequencies.aspx


----------



## alphanguy

I don't need a wide band antenna, I've got an XG-91 (2 piggybacked on each other, actually) pointed in the directions of the bulk of my stations, and I want another to point at my secondary stations, which are 15 and 17. I'm tired of the rotor and it's "creep" and the high wind blowing my antenna out of adjestment, so I'm going with 2 "fixed" units, and doing the A/B switch thing (This is the way I had my setup years ago, and it was alot less trouble) If you seem the think antenna manufacturers lie about the gain to increase sales, I wouldn't be any more likely to believe Triax's gain claims than Winegard's. It seems like everything I read never has any real world relevance. I tried vertical stacking and horizontal stacking on those XG-91's and saw NO increase in signal strength... it wans't unitl I screwed aruond and simply "balanced" one antenna directly on top of the other one... the bottom one sticking out forward about 10 inches farther than the top one, THEN I got a 10 percent increase in signal strength across the board. So I wrapped them up with duct tape to fasten them together, and tied the reflectors together with zip ties, and there you go. But since that XG-91 peaks it's gain in the obselete 52-69 channels, I'm going for something that will peform on 15 and 17, which most seem not to do. That HDTVprimer graph shows most drop like a rock under channel 20.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alphanguy* /forum/post/15792070
> 
> 
> I don't need a wide band antenna, I've got an XG-91 (2 piggybacked on each other, actually) pointed in the directions of the bulk of my stations, and I want another to point at my secondary stations, which are 15 and 17. I'm tired of the rotor and it's "creep" and the high wind blowing my antenna out of adjestment, so I'm going with 2 "fixed" units, and doing the A/B switch thing (This is the way I had my setup years ago, and it was alot less trouble) If you seem the think antenna manufacturers lie about the gain to increase sales, I wouldn't be any more likely to believe Triax's gain claims than Winegard's. It seems like everything I read never has any real world relevance. I tried vertical stacking and horizontal stacking on those XG-91's and saw NO increase in signal strength... it wans't unitl I screwed aruond and simply "balanced" one antenna directly on top of the other one... the bottom one sticking out forward about 10 inches farther than the top one, THEN I got a 10 percent increase in signal strength across the board. So I wrapped them up with duct tape to fasten them together, and tied the reflectors together with zip ties, and there you go. But since that XG-91 peaks it's gain in the obselete 52-69 channels, I'm going for something that will peform on 15 and 17, which most seem not to do. That HDTVprimer graph shows most drop like a rock under channel 20.



Pointing antennas in different directions will likely require you to add filtering such as a jointenna. You'd need to check around for availability on filters specific for the channels you need.


Probably the better option is to maximize a single antenna(s) and use a rotator. I have to recalibrate my rotator all of the time. It's just part of being in the fringe. Horizontally stacked XG91's should provide better performance than a single Unix 100A for low uhf.


Sounds like you are having problems getting the two xg91s to phase properly. You might double-check the baluns on them. Older xg91s used a ferrite balun and you may need to swap the polarity to match them. If this is the case, you simply swap one of the 300ohm balun leads on one of the antennas to match them. Out of phase antennas have a forward null while in-phase antennas have a forward lobe so it's not hard to tell. I won't insult you by telling you to be sure the leads from the antenna to the combiner are exactly the same length.


You could also go with an XG91 for upper uhf and a 100A for lower uhf. Again, you'd need a filter designed for this for best performance. Triax makes one if you can find a source.


----------



## Jesse31




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alphanguy* /forum/post/15790998
> 
> 
> Though it's not another db here and there.. the difference between specs from one to the other was 5 db! So, I guess your'e basically saying Winegard is lying about that model by 5 db? So I guess according to the HDTV primer data, that the pr-8800 is the one to get... unless you think the redesigned 4228 will outdo it? I couldn't understand that gain chart you posted for the triax 100a..... there's 3 curves on it? And it only shows data down to channel 21, I'm looking for data from channels 14-20.



Good response...but keep in mind that on this forum most people (not me though) are in love with anything from Channel Master and won't even consider anything else.


----------



## Blackduck

Tired of rusty steel mast, does 1" aluminum schedule 40 pipe seem like it would be as strong as 16 Ga steel pipe, standard 1 1//4" mast? It would be under 10' in length. If not, any suggestions?


----------



## dobyken




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/15785423
> 
> 
> The 4228 has one VHF channel where it is deficient, channel 7. Your NBC is on channel 7.
> 
> 
> I'd try a Winegard HD7698P for Tampa and aim the 4228 elsewhere.



Thanks,

That's a big puppy....and expensive. I would most likely have to remove it if we get another hurricane here. The 4228 came through fine on the last one we had with 80mph winds but I don't know what would happen with that plus the 7698p on the same mast.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Blackduck* /forum/post/15795627
> 
> 
> Tired of rusty steel mast, does 1" aluminum schedule 40 pipe seem like it would be as strong as 16 Ga steel pipe, standard 1 1//4" mast? It would be under 10' in length. If not, any suggestions?



It depends on the alloys of the steel and aluminum.


Good aluminum is stronger than galvanized water pipe but TV mast is often much stronger than water pipe. The strongest aluminum is usually sized as tubing and not pipe, but there are exceptions.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dobyken* /forum/post/15799246
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> That's a big puppy....and expensive. I would most likely have to remove it if we get another hurricane here. The 4228 came through fine on the last one we had with 80mph winds but I don't know what would happen with that plus the 7698p on the same mast.




You could add an Antennacraft Y10 7-13 without too much added wind load, especially if you mount it fixed below the rotator. It's cheap too. Combine it with the 4228 using a u/v combiner before the preamp.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> I've never seen a gain chart/graph for the Triax Unix 100A.



I've posted it here before,I think.Here it is.



http://alpha.future.ee/triax_unix.png


----------



## alphanguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/15793200
> 
> 
> Pointing antennas in different directions will likely require you to add filtering such as a jointenna. You'd need to check around for availability on filters specific for the channels you need.



What would I need a filter for? Yes, I point 2 antennas in two different directions, and I have seperate coax for each one. The the A/B switch selects which antenna's signal is fed into the TV at any given time.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Blackduck* /forum/post/15795627
> 
> 
> Tired of rusty steel mast, does 1" aluminum schedule 40 pipe seem like it would be as strong as 16 Ga steel pipe, standard 1 1//4" mast? It would be under 10' in length. If not, any suggestions?



As a general rule of thumb steel pipe is 3 times stronger than aluminum of the same dimension.Not much difference in cost to move up to 1-1/4 Sch40 which would be a lot stronger than 1 inch.I use a lot of 1-1/4 and sleeve it with 1" aluminum or steel at high stress points.Here's a pic of the UHF tower.All 1-1/4" aluminum masting down to the rotor.


----------



## The Hound




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alphanguy* /forum/post/15800811
> 
> 
> What would I need a filter for? Yes, I point 2 antennas in two different directions, and I have seperate coax for each one. The the A/B switch selects which antenna's signal is fed into the TV at any given time.



With the A/B switch you don't need filters.

If you wanted to run both antennas down the same lead you would.


----------



## alphanguy

I never knew people tried to put two opposite antennas down the same coax, I would never even dream of trying such a thing. I do wonder something.... how is digital when it comes to adjacent channel intereference? My weak station Digital 17, but I have a stronger digital 18 (Noise margin +36.1), which I do lock onto at times (drops out) from the backside of my antenna when it's pointed at 17.... however, that digital 18 is not LOS, nor is any other channel I can receive. Think it might cause a problem? And if so, are there ways to correct such things?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alphanguy* /forum/post/15800811
> 
> 
> What would I need a filter for? Yes, I point 2 antennas in two different directions, and I have seperate coax for each one. The the A/B switch selects which antenna's signal is fed into the TV at any given time.



Correct you don't need a filter if you use an a/b switch. Sorry I missed that.


Good luck.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/15800697
> 
> 
> I've posted it here before,I think.Here it is.
> 
> 
> 
> http://alpha.future.ee/triax_unix.png



Cool, I've never seen that.

Makes me want to try 4 K-banders.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/15790650
> 
> 
> Here is the comparison. Most of the signal level readings were made with the DisplayMax 800, but I added a few from the 719E for comparison or when the level was too low for the 800. The specs for the 800 say that it can read digital down to -23dBmV. When the level is too low for it, the display says "Ur." which I assume to mean unreadable. I used the same box #1 as last time, first in a strong signal location:
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Attenuator    Quality     Strength      DM800     719E
> dB            %            %         dBmV      dBmV
> 
> 0           100           84       +14.1      +12.5
> 3           100           84       +11.2
> 6           100           84        +7.6
> 9           100           83        +4.8
> 12           100           80        +2.5
> 15           100           75        -0.8
> 18           100           72        -4.6
> 21           100           67        -7.7
> 24           100           64       -10.2
> 27           100           60       -12.8
> 30           100           56       -14.9
> 33           100           53       -17.1
> 36           100           47         Ur.      -23.0
> 39           100           42                  -27.2
> 42           100           37                  -28.5
> 45            66           27                  -35
> 48            34            0
> 
> The OTA readings seemed to vary a bit that day, probably because of the strong wind through the trees that are in the signal path.
> 
> 
> and then in a weak signal location:
> Code:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Attenuator    Quality     Strength      DM800     719E
> dB            %            %         dBmV      dBmV
> 
> 0           100           62       -14.1     -17.5
> 3           100           54       -16.3
> 6           100           49       -18.4
> 9           100           44         Ur.     -26.0
> 12            99           37                 -29.5
> 15            81           32                 -35
> 18            21            0                 -38
> 21                                      Dropout
> 
> I think that all CECBs should have two signal bars because of the importance of signal QUALITY for digital reception. So far, I have tested the Zinwell ZAT-970A, the Apex DT502, and the Sansonic FT300A. My first choice as a measurement tool is the Apex. The Zinwell and Sansonic don't always give consistent readings for the same input, and the Sansonic bars take a long time to respond to changes.



Thanks for posting the data, it will come in handy.


Yeah, my Sansonic FT300A bars take time to respond to changes too. I imagine youll post a similiar comparison to it later too.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/15800868
> 
> 
> As a general rule of thumb steel pipe is 3 times stronger than aluminum of the same dimension.



It really depends on the alloy.


Black iron (water pipe) yield strength ~ 30,000 PSI

Low carbon steel yield strength ~ 36,000 PSI

Aircraft grade 4130 steel yield strength ~ 50,000 PSI

High carbon steel yield strength ~ 87,000 PSI

Tool steel yield strength as much as 100,000 PSI


Aluminum alloys

6063 (no temper)15,000 PSI

6063 T832 40,000 PSI

3003 21,000 PSI

2024 42,000 PSI

6061T6 35,000 PSI


Typical comparison info for ham masts:
http://www.texastowers.com/steelmasts.htm 


If you select steel masts for strength purposes, make sure that it is high carbon steel. Water pipe doesn't cut it.


----------



## BGrigg

I think I'm in the wrong post, but I did a forum search for FM antenna and this popped up. I live in an apartment building and my FM reception is pretty bad. I'm not looking to spend much ($20-$30) as I hope to get a new HT receiver (currently Onkyo 601) in a couple years that will probably have HD Radio (if it's still around) as well as support for my digital collection. But what is the best low-cost antenna out there? I'm guessing amplified is the way to go.


thx


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/15802517
> 
> 
> Cool, I've never seen that.
> 
> Makes me want to try 4 K-banders.



Well,good luck finding those.I noticed cpc had some listed a few months ago-but have disappeared.Bet a dollar to a doughnut they don't have any Band A's either.cpc was the only company in the UK that was reasonable and easy to do business.I think our Euro pipeline for the good stuff has dried up


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/15804129
> 
> 
> It really depends on the alloy.
> 
> 
> Black iron (water pipe) yield strength ~ 30,000 PSI
> 
> Low carbon steel yield strength ~ 36,000 PSI
> 
> Aircraft grade 4130 steel yield strength ~ 50,000 PSI
> 
> High carbon steel yield strength ~ 87,000 PSI
> 
> Tool steel yield strength as much as 100,000 PSI
> 
> 
> Aluminum alloys
> 
> 6063 (no temper)15,000 PSI
> 
> 6063 T832 40,000 PSI
> 
> 3003 21,000 PSI
> 
> 2024 42,000 PSI
> 
> 6061T6 35,000 PSI
> 
> 
> Typical comparison info for ham masts:
> http://www.texastowers.com/steelmasts.htm
> 
> 
> If you select steel masts for strength purposes, make sure that it is high carbon steel. Water pipe doesn't cut it.



I've used Sch40 pipe, steel and aluminum,which have similar specs,but in actual use the steel is much stiffer.I use Aluminum because of the weight savings realized when lifting the tower from the ground to vertical,as well as the rusting issue.But,after watching the array last night taking a hammering with 50mph wind gusts,I think I'll replace the 1-1/4" AL(1-5/8" OD) with steel from the rotor up thru the top bearing.It bends in the middle too much(7ft unsupported).


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BGrigg* /forum/post/15807696
> 
> 
> I think I'm in the wrong post, but I did a forum search for FM antenna and this popped up. I live in an apartment building and my FM reception is pretty bad. I'm not looking to spend much ($20-$30) as I hope to get a new HT receiver (currently Onkyo 601) in a couple years that will probably have HD Radio (if it's still around) as well as support for my digital collection. But what is the best low-cost antenna out there? I'm guessing amplified is the way to go.
> 
> 
> thx



You can calculate signal strengths using www.tvfool.com 

If your signals are strong enough, a folded dipole should

work quite well. Connect to receiver via a 300-to-75-ohm

(Balun) Transformer:
http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html 

If you have an attic, adding a reflector and optional director increases gain.


Or use simple Rabbit Ears, since FM Band is just above Ch6:
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/rabbit.htm 


You can use an amplified antenna if FM signal strengths (and Ch6)

are LESS than about -25 dBm ("LESS" would be -26 dBm).


FYI: Some (too much???) high performance FM Antenna Info:
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/ 
http://www.aphenos.net/misc/electron...g_Antennas.htm


----------



## audioxcel

A couple of questions regarding mounting antennas. If I decide to mount separate UHF and VHF high antennas on the same mast, how far must one be above the other? If I use guide wires to add stability, how far below the lowest of the two antennas do the wires need to be fastened to the mast?

Thanks


----------



## 300ohm

Old rule of thumb used to be something like one wavelength of the lowest frequency, but of course thats not practical in most cases. Try to get as much distance between them as you can without sacrificing structural stability.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioxcel* /forum/post/15814918
> 
> 
> A couple of questions regarding mounting antennas. If I decide to mount separate UHF and VHF high antennas on the same mast, how far must one be above the other? If I use guide wires to add stability, how far below the lowest of the two antennas do the wires need to be fastened to the mast?
> 
> Thanks



Rule of thumb is 36 inches for uhf, 48 for hi vhf, and 60 for lo vhf. 36 would probably still be ok for hi vhf especially if you only need the higher vhf channels say 10 and above. Spacing to prevent interference is measured from nearest metallic elements.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BGrigg* /forum/post/15807696
> 
> 
> I think I'm in the wrong post, but I did a forum search for *FM antenna* and this popped up. I live in an apartment building and my FM reception is pretty bad. I'm not looking to spend much ($20-$30)
> 
> thx





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15810863
> 
> 
> ... use simple Rabbit Ears, since FM Band is just above Ch6



If you're not a long way from the radio transmitter towers, a simple rabbit ear antenna works well. This one from Radio Shack works particularly well with FM and HD radio:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077 

I'm using one for FM/HD radio stations ~45 miles away.


Leave off the loop part of the antenna when assembling it. It is for UHF TV band. You only need to attach the two dipole elements for FM reception.


----------



## PCTools

MaxHD,


My new Rohn Tower was checked out this week. We had 70 MPH winds last night, and no issues with the horizontal stack of 91XG's and the High Bander on the bottom. The neighbors did not make it. They had the American Tower brand and it bend over.


I am considered to be the king on the road, as all of my neighbors that I would have bought the farm. I had two full truck loads of concrete for the base. I can post pictures if needed.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/15799303
> 
> 
> It depends on the alloys of the steel and aluminum.
> 
> 
> Good aluminum is stronger than galvanized water pipe but TV mast is often much stronger than water pipe. The strongest aluminum is usually sized as tubing and not pipe, but there are exceptions.



Where does one find a "Good" "TV mast?" I was looking to use 10' of 1" and a sleeve from 1¼" galvanized water pipe for top dry bearing and mast shaft. This will support the mounting of a Channel Master 3020 on a 40' tower (which I would like to add another 10'), anchored to the eave of my single story residence.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/15818295
> 
> 
> MaxHD,
> 
> 
> My new Rohn Tower was checked out this week. We had 70 MPH winds last night, and no issues with the horizontal stack of 91XG's and the High Bander on the bottom. The neighbors did not make it. They had the American Tower brand and it bend over.
> 
> 
> I am considered to be the king on the road, as all of my neighbors that I would have bought the farm. I had two full truck loads of concrete for the base. I can post pictures if needed.



Like I told you,you're out of spec for 25,but it's very tuff tower for sure.No pics needed,but a video of the stuff wavin in the wind would be cool


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/15820218
> 
> 
> Where does one find a "Good" "TV mast?" I was looking to use 10' of 1" and a sleeve from 1¼" galvanized water pipe for top dry bearing and mast shaft. This will support the mounting of a Channel Master 3020 on a 40' tower (which I would like to add another 10'), anchored to the eave of my single story residence.



Just use 1" galvanized pipe(1-1/4" OD)


----------



## systems2000

So, I can go ahead with my initial idea of 1" and using the 1¼" Galv Pipe as the outside sleeve (fits inside the through hole on the top of my tower) for a top bearing? Good to know. After the analog shutdown happens and the stations get settled, I'll need to re-evaluate my main antenna.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/15790650
> 
> 
> Here is the comparison for my Apex DT502. Most of the signal level readings were made with the DisplayMax 800, but I added a few from the 719E for comparison or when the level was too low for the 800. The specs for the 800 say that it can read digital down to -23dBmV. When the level is too low for it, the display says "Ur." which I assume to mean unreadable. I used the same box #1 as last time, first in a strong signal location:
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Attenuator    Quality     Strength      DM800     719E
> dB            %            %         dBmV      dBmV
> 
> 0           100           84       +14.1      +12.5
> 3           100           84       +11.2
> 6           100           84        +7.6
> 9           100           83        +4.8
> 12           100           80        +2.5
> 15           100           75        -0.8
> 18           100           72        -4.6
> 21           100           67        -7.7
> 24           100           64       -10.2
> 27           100           60       -12.8
> 30           100           56       -14.9
> 33           100           53       -17.1
> 36           100           47         Ur.      -23.0
> 39           100           42                  -27.2
> 42           100           37                  -28.5
> 45            66           27                  -35
> 48            34            0
> 
> The OTA readings seemed to vary a bit that day, probably because of the strong wind through the trees that are in the signal path.
> 
> 
> and then in a weak signal location:
> Code:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Attenuator    Quality     Strength      DM800     719E
> dB            %            %         dBmV      dBmV
> 
> 0           100           62       -14.1     -17.5
> 3           100           54       -16.3
> 6           100           49       -18.4
> 9           100           44         Ur.     -26.0
> 12            99           37                 -29.5
> 15            81           32                 -35
> 18            21            0                 -38
> 21                                      Dropout
> 
> I think that all CECBs should have two signal bars because of the importance of signal QUALITY for digital reception. So far, I have tested the Zinwell ZAT-970A, the Apex DT502, and the Sansonic FT300A. My first choice as a measurement tool is the Apex. The Zinwell and Sansonic don't always give consistent readings for the same input, and the Sansonic bars take a long time to respond to changes.



rabbit73,


Here are APEX DT502 readings of stations I'm receiving:


*Station**Strength**Quality**Notes*WMAR-DT61%30%Heavy ±, 2-edgeWBAL-DT58%29%Heavy ±, 2-edgeWJZ-DT84%100%Solid, 2-edgeWUTB-DT70%80%Minor ±, 2-edgeWWPB-DT84%23%Off-Axis, 21 mile LOS (local)WNUV-DT78%100%Solid, 2-edgeWWPX-DT85%54%Off-Axis, 34 mile LOS (local)
*NOTE:* My setup is a decoupled CM3020, with a 0265DSB pre-amp, mounted on top of a 40' tower. This is then fed into a Trunkline 20-TDA25 25dB DA via a 6dB In-Line attenuator. From the DA, I have a 2-way splitter that feeds house distribution of about 40-50' to another 2-way.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> rabbit73,
> 
> 
> Here are APEX DT502 readings of stations I'm receiving:
> 
> 
> Station Strength Quality Notes
> 
> WMAR-DT 61% 30% Heavy ±, 2-edge
> 
> WBAL-DT 58% 29% Heavy ±, 2-edge
> 
> WJZ-DT 84% 100% Solid, 2-edge
> 
> WUTB-DT 70% 80% Minor ±, 2-edge
> 
> WWPB-DT 84% 23% Off-Axis, 21 mile LOS (local)
> 
> WNUV-DT 78% 100% Solid, 2-edge
> 
> WWPX-DT 85% 54% Off-Axis, 34 mile LOS (local)
> 
> 
> NOTE: My setup is a decoupled CM3020, with a 0265DSB pre-amp, mounted on top of a 40' tower. This is then fed into a Trunkline 20-TDA25 25dB DA via a 6dB In-Line attenuator. From the DA, I have a 2-way splitter that feeds house distribution of about 40-50' to another 2-way.



Interesting, I can almost see the noise caused by the DAs in your system. Im at 61 miles from my transmitters, using a DBGH uhf with a CM1221 modded for future vhf (no vhf DT stations yet) 25 ft on the roof, with a CM0264 into a two way splitter and an AB switch for a second DBGH. Most of my Apex DT502 quality readings for the signal strengths you have listed or above are at 100%, like rabbit73s chart.


----------



## systems2000

If I remove the DA, I would probably only get WJZ-DT and WNUV-DT.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/15825334
> 
> 
> So, I can go ahead with my initial idea of 1" and using the 1¼" Galv Pipe as the outside sleeve (fits inside the through hole on the top of my tower) for a top bearing? Good to know. After the analog shutdown happens and the stations get settled, I'll need to re-evaluate my main antenna.



I don't have enough info on what you have or what you're doing,but the pipes will turn inside each other.With a hole in the tower top,I'd use a 1-1/4" floor flange bolted on top with nothing else or maybe a very short stub of pipe screwed into the flange.Again,I don't know your complete configuration plan.


----------



## systems2000

My station strengths:


*STATION**ANALOG**CURRENT**FUTURE**NM (dB)*WMAR-DT25238-21.5WBAL-DT115911-23.1WJZ-DT133813-17.2WUTB-DT244141-24.9WHAG-DT255526+59.2WWPB-DT314444+47.7WNUV-DT544040-19.0WWPX-DT601212+42.6WJAL-DT68-39+53.7
*NOTE:* WHAG-DT and WJAL-DT will not be receivable until after analog shutdown.


----------



## systems2000

Short piece of 1¼" galv with couplers top and bottom (cheaper than floor flnges).


----------



## DEEPFRINGEGUY

Anyone know where I can pick up a Funke PSP.1922? Are they still making these?


- DFGY


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> If I remove the DA, I would probably only get WJZ-DT and WNUV-DT.



Oh yeah, I didnt mean to imply to remove them. You need them to drive the additional cable runs you must have. I was just noting the quality per the DT502 and my system and your system.



> Quote:
> but the pipes will turn inside each other



Or a small hole with a bolt thru both pipes.


----------



## sharam

I'm using an indoor antenna and I've currently had the best results with an old RS 15-1864 RE and loop, although I've tried a RCA ANT121 and a RS delta and an RS 22 db amplified antenna.

I pick up all the UHF channels with pretty stable strengths running between 65 and 98 depending on the channel but was having trouble with two high VHF channels. I'm about 25 miles from all the signals. Placing the antenna in the window is about the same as inside the room near the ceiling, but touching the rabbit ears to the window edges (metal) improves the signal enough to pick up the VHF channels. Could someone explain this to me?


Thanks.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sharam* /forum/post/15828773
> 
> 
> Placing the antenna in the window is about the same as inside the room near the ceiling, but touching the rabbit ears to the window edges (metal) improves the signal enough to pick up the VHF channels. Could someone explain this to me?



VHF doesn't travel through walls as well as UHF does. Also, certain kinds of wall insulation and types of window glass can block TV signals. The metal window frame may be picking up enough signal from outside to allow reception when the dipoles touch it.


On one TV, I've had very good results using * this rabbit ear/loop antenna *, which has a larger gauge coax than most cheap set top antennas. Placed against an outside wall, I'm getting channels from over 45 miles away. YMMV, of course.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DEEPFRINGEGUY* /forum/post/15828326
> 
> 
> Anyone know where I can pick up a Funke PSP.1922? Are they still making these?
> 
> 
> - DFGY



I'm sold out.The company in Holland may still make up a batch.They wanted a minimum 100 unit order at the time I ordered them,but they settled at 49 units when we BS'd about Pacer basketball(Rik Smits is from Holland).The export mgr done follow-up calls to me several times,so they seemed eager to do export business.


Or,maybe someone I sold to has one that didn't work out and sees your post?


----------



## pamajestic

MAX HD,


Maybe you should consider becoming the official US distributor for Funke. Maybe not the entire line, only the antennas useful for DXing and fringe.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15828700
> 
> 
> Or a small hole with a bolt thru both pipes.



But I want the 1" pipe to turn, because it will be bottomed by my Channel Master rotator.


I've devised a mount for my rotator, by drilling holes through one of the three legs of the tower. I mount two American Valve, #302038, 1" galvanized "Split Ring Hanger" pipe clamps, with 3/8"x4" galvanized bolts and 2" spacers (by using ½" EMT as spacers, this gives me room to clear the supports and, to mount and center the rotator on the tower). I place a 3/8" galvanized washer between the spacer and the "Split Ring Hanger" to give the hanger something to rest against. By clamping the "Split Ring Hanger" around a 1" galv pipe of five or ten feet, I have the ability to move the rotator up and down the pipe to peak the antenna, which is mounted to a 10'x1" galvanized pipe.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pamajestic* /forum/post/15830777
> 
> 
> MAX HD,
> 
> 
> Maybe you should consider becoming the official US distributor for Funke. Maybe not the entire line, only the antennas useful for DXing and fringe.



Nope,too much hassle and too expensive.The air freight alone on those 49 was $850 and had to drive 50mi to pick them up.Not to mention it took a week to find out where they were so I could pick them up.And guess who had to pay the daily dock storage fees,customs fees,and some other foo-foo fees? When you buy from overseas,there's several entities that people are unaware of that you must hand over money to,to get the merchandise.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> But I want the 1" pipe to turn, because it will be bottomed by my Channel Master rotator.



Ahh sorry, misunderstood. "Never mind" - Gilda Radner SNL. But stop busting them school children, heh.


----------



## Digital Rules

Hey Rick0725,


Nice to hear you chime in.


Do you have a preference between the Winegard YA-1713 vs. the Antennacraft Y10-7-13? The Winegard is supposedly a bit weak on channel 13, but I don't know if switching to the Antennacraft would be worth the trouble????


Thanks again for all your help!! Glen


----------



## systems2000

I'm using a CM0265DSB, so that I can have seperate UHF/VHF inputs and not have the balun loss. I was thinking about modifying the UHF segment like the HDTVExpert website did to a CM3022. http://hdtvexpert.com/pages/cm3022.htm


----------



## holl_ands

You still have Balun Loss....they're INSIDE the Preamp.


----------



## Digital Rules

Is there a reason why TV antennas aren't manufactured with 75 ohm impedence instead of 300 ohm? The only 75 ohm TV antennas I have ever seen were cut for a single channel.


----------



## systems2000

How does the winegard hda 100 compare to the CM3412?


I understand there would be a balun inside the pre-amp, although I would think it would be designed and tuned for the pre-amp circuit and give better performance.


----------



## Jesse31




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/15832014
> 
> 
> Is there a reason why TV antennas aren't manufactured with 75 ohm impedence instead of 300 ohm? The only 75 ohm TV antennas I have ever seen were cut for a single channel.



I thought that the Winegard HD76XXP series were 75 ohm?


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jesse31* /forum/post/15833363
> 
> 
> I thought that the Winegard HD76XXP series were 75 ohm?



No,


They are 300 ohm with a snap on, weatherproof balun.


----------



## Falcon_77

What is the word on the street regarding the AD Clearstream 2? I am looking for a portable antenna, e.g. one that won't damage my car easily. The CM4220 I have available is very rough around the edges. I have a Silver Sensor for the purpose right now, but am looking for something a little more robust.


The CS2 seems to be smaller than I had thought and has a reflector, something my home-builds lack. The CS1 is small enough to point out the window, but doesn't seem to have much of an advantage over the Silver Sensor.


I would also be curious if anyone has tested the upper VHF performance of the CS series. Despite the marketing hype, I would be surprised if they are above -8dB.


Thank you for any info.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/15833628
> 
> 
> ...I would also be curious if anyone has tested the upper VHF performance of the CS series...



I don't have the source handy, but I read the VHF performance was poor (seems like it was a review at hdtvexpert, but not sure).


I also will not purchase from companies that overly hype their products and repeatedly publish misleading gain information.


----------



## Digital Rules

My neighbor and I tested the CS1, 2, & 4 against the Winegard 1080. None of the CS antennas would decode a LP digital channel 8 only 6 miles away.(That channel 8 is wedged between full power analog channels 7 & [email protected] miles away) The 1080 was the only antenna able to decode the channel.(Signal meter steady around 60% on the Zenith DTT-901) The UHF performance is somewhat better on the CS 2 & 4. The CS antennas don't seem to have any more gain on VHF-HI than my 91-XG.


----------



## systems2000

I found out this morning that my tower (I aquired it from a dismantle) appears to be made by American Tower (Amerite) and is the 5 step - two hole - GCS Series Communication Tower, with a GT-3 top.


----------



## DEEPFRINGEGUY




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DEEPFRINGEGUY* /forum/post/15828326
> 
> 
> Anyone know where I can pick up a Funke PSP.1922? Are they still making these?
> 
> 
> - DFGY



Thanks,


I sent them an email last week, but no reply... Maybe Terrestrial Digital will copy it and offer it to the U.S. market?










- DFGY


----------



## mattdp

As many of you know, I've been trying to get my antenna system up and running for a while. I've got an FM antenna, Wade UV-936SR and a DBGH UHF antenna on top of a hill behind my house. TV Fool tells me all the signals I'm after aren't lower than -85 (most all are in the red zone).


I had tested the DBGH before and it got me Twin Cities analog UHFs perfectly from a site about a mile from my house (75 miles from the tower) and at a lower elevation. I was using a prototype and a different balun.


After much work, I finally got the thing on top of the hill. The DBGH was over 25 off the ground. It was fed into the UHF side of a VUSJ. The Wade 936 was fed into the VHF side. The signal goes down to the house through about 250ft of RG-11.


Aimed directly at the TC, their UHFs were very fuzzy color, and VHFs started out nearly perfect on ch. 2 and look atrocous by ch. 11 (which is low power).


I removed the pre-amp so it went directly down to the house, lost the UHFs and had my VHFs get a little worse. I then put the pre-amp back in and Connected it directly the DBGH. The same. I connected the pre-amp directly to the Wade 936 and got slightly worse TC UHFs, but gained better reception on stations in other directions.


I've also tested my FM antenna. While I get super reception on in-town stations, TC stations (all of which are 100KW) are rather fuzzy.



We've tested the resistance of the RG-11 (shorted at one end) and it measures 1.2ohms (or something really low like that). We replaced the ground block, replaced all RG-6 and connectors going from the block to pre-amp and the DBGH (need to re-do the one on the Wade). We've sanded every center conductor to remove any trace of gunk and measured resistance.


I've been scratching my head over this for weeks, and I think I finally found the culprite. The Baluns.


I'm using Phillips Magnavox baluns on all my antennas. They look to have chincy construction (only a few strands of wire in the twinlead part), etc... I'm thinking of splurging and getting three Channel Master baluns from Summit Source, but I want to know your opinions. Has anyone had experience with the Phillips Magnavox baluns? Has anyone done a comparison with other models? any low-loss DIY designs?


If all else fails, I might try a 300ohm pre-amp. Any idea where to get, say shielded twinlead?


----------



## pamajestic




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DEEPFRINGEGUY* /forum/post/15834452
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> I sent them an email last week, but no reply... Maybe Terrestrial Digital will copy it and offer it to the U.S. market?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - DFGY



I actually have thought the same thing. I have even considered send them an email or calling them to suggest it. Terrestrial Digital has an RV they are touring the country with pushing their antennas at TV stations during the local news in preparation for the transition. At one of the stops the founder did an interview where he stated he only founded the company in 03. His friends told him he we crazy. He just felt that as HD programming grew people would have a desire receive it free as opposed to paying an additional fee to the cable companies. The 91XG does exactly as advertised. It would be nice if they offered a deep fringe VHF high to accompany it.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/15833695
> 
> 
> I don't have the source handy, but I read the VHF performance was poor (seems like it was a review at hdtvexpert, but not sure).



Thanks. I found the article:

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/Five_Antennas.html 


AD's marketing hype reminds me of Monster, but if a CM2016 has the aluminum rust that I'm accustomed to from CM, I don't think I want that in my car. I've already tried an HD-1080, but its performance left much to be desired. It's hard to get something small and easy to work with for any kind of VHF gain, so I think I will forget about VHF for mobile tests, outside of the rabbit ear/loop combo I have.


----------



## DEEPFRINGEGUY




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pamajestic* /forum/post/15835411
> 
> 
> I actually have thought the same thing. I have even considered send them an email or calling them to suggest it. Terrestrial Digital has an RV they are touring the country with pushing their antennas at TV stations during the local news in preparation for the transition. At one of the stops the founder did an interview where he stated he only founded the company in 03. His friends told him he we crazy. He just felt that as HD programming grew people would have a desire receive it free as opposed to paying an additional fee to the cable companies. The 91XG does exactly as advertised. It would be nice if they offered a deep fringe VHF high to accompany it.



Ditto! I have a 91XG and it's a very close copy of the Funke DC4591.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post15395903 


Maybe if they get enough emails, they'll consider it...



- DFGY


----------



## systems2000

I did some research and found information on an antenna that was snagged with the tower. It appears to be a Channel Master Quantum. I'm not sure which model (it's not the 1111), but I think it must be a 1162, 1161, or a 1160A. It has nine front directors, two sets (top/bottom) of L1-L5 UHF elements, and two sets (top/bottom) of five VHF elements (the last two sets (longest) are broken off), three sets of floating directors, and four (maybe five), top-side, center directors. Seems like it's the major antenna around here. I see it everywhere.


Would this be better than my CM3020?


----------



## Digital Rules

Probably not. The Quantum antennas were excellent for VHF, but weak on UHF. A good separate UHF antenna would easily ouperform either antenna. There is no _"combo"_ antenna out there that will work better on UHF than a good UHF only antenna. Only the Winegard 8200 comes close.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DEEPFRINGEGUY* /forum/post/15835758
> 
> 
> Ditto! I have a 91XG and it's a very close copy of the Funke DC4591.
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post15395903
> 
> 
> Maybe if they get enough emails, they'll consider it...
> 
> 
> 
> - DFGY



I doubt it.I give Funke's export mgr Richard's phone number 3-4yrs ago and nothing happened.Apparently better profit opportunities getting stuff from China.You're right about the copy of the DC4591.According to Funke they designed it and many other countries copied it,not exactly,but the end results are the same.Very good design with better bandwidth,better F/B than any other UHF antenna.


----------



## alphanguy

I have a question for thos technically versed on preamps. I have heard everyone talk about the channelmaster pre-amps having a much lower noise figure than the radio shack models. I have a radio shack model (15-2507) and it has served me well for 12 years. I purchased a channelmaster 7775 a year or so ago, and tested it with my analog UHF stations. I did this over three of four days, with back to back testing... and it performed just as well as the radio shack, but no better. There was no discernable difference in the analog picture between the two amps. (I expected maybe slightly less snow, etc..)So I sold the channelmaster on ebay. Now, I've read some places that the lower noise figure makes more of a difference in digital reception... exactly what kind of difference? Does it make the channels you already have more stable with less droupout? Or does it make weak stations lock on easier at lower signal strength? What is the technical advantage of the lower noise figure in digital? And on a very marginal channel that is right on the edge of coming in (maybe locks on at night, but not during the day) might that lower noise figure make an appreciable difference? I might try the 7775 again with digital, but I'm leery, because every channelmaster product I've purchased has not performed up to expectation, and in some cases (like my channelmaster quantam 1160) the radio shack product out performed it by an appreciable distance.


----------



## holl_ands

*mattdp:*

DIY Coax Baluns were just discussed in DIY UHF Antenna thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=15837159 

The Canadian Balun thread has additional discussions....


And earlier, I posted Balun Loss measurements in this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=13581150


----------



## w0en




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mattdp* /forum/post/15835359
> 
> 
> I'm using Phillips Magnavox baluns on all my antennas. They look to have chincy construction (only a few strands of wire in the twinlead part), etc... I'm thinking of splurging and getting three Channel Master baluns from Summit Source, but I want to know your opinions. Has anyone had experience with the Phillips Magnavox baluns? Has anyone done a comparison with other models? any low-loss DIY designs?
> 
> 
> If all else fails, I might try a 300ohm pre-amp. Any idea where to get, say shielded twinlead?



I am using both the CM and Phillips baluns at present, signalwise I don't have any real horror stories on either. The heavier construction and weatherproofing on the CM make them nice units for the antenna end. Back in the 70's when I was much closer to your age and I put up my first TV antenna I wanted the best and used shielded 300 Ohm twinlead which was a R-S item in those days (I think they had 3-4 grades of 300 ohm twinlead). Nice stuff although hard to work with (stiffer and fatter than coax), had a foam core between the wires and foil shielding. I later came to find out that it was really for protection from external impulse noise problems and had worse attenuation specs than the cheap stuff.


Did you ever measure the PS voltage at the antenna preamp under load from the wall supply? I know the connections are clean and you know the resistance of the RG-11 but it is still possible you aren't getting enough voltage at the preamp though all the wire, baluns and connections to get the best gain from your preamp. Maybe even trick out some F connectors and measure the current with a VOM under load. You could be getting a lot of voltage drop or have a poor power supply on the CM7777. Just a thought, it looks like you covered most of the other bases. I know it's a hard climb for you up and down that hill!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The CS2 seems to be smaller than I had thought and has a reflector, something my home-builds lack. The CS1 is small enough to point out the window, but doesn't seem to have much of an advantage over the Silver Sensor.



The C2 would be good for car, boat or RV use. But just dont expect great gain from it. Also at $99 at my local Best Buy, it is far from a bargain.


----------



## sharam

Thanks for the explanation, arxaw.


----------



## ceeaton




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mattdp* /forum/post/15835359
> 
> 
> I'm using Phillips Magnavox baluns on all my antennas. They look to have chincy construction (only a few strands of wire in the twinlead part), etc... I'm thinking of splurging and getting three Channel Master baluns from Summit Source, but I want to know your opinions. Has anyone had experience with the Phillips Magnavox baluns? Has anyone done a comparison with other models? any low-loss DIY designs?



I had been using Phillips/Magnavox (Lowes) and RS baluns until last week. I placed and order for 5 Model 0089 CM Balun/Matching Transformers. I have a DBGH on the roof, and a SBGH 10 strapped to the porch. The DBGH came down in a fit of wind, so I took the opportunity to replace the Phillips balun with one of the CMs. I noticed the difference right off the bat. Not only are my signal strengths better, but they don't seem to vary so much in windy/rainy weather (Some of that could also be my thicker/sturdier mast). I did hook up all 5 to my SBGH on the porch, and ended up rating them from 1 to 5. There was a difference between each...it could have been changing conditions, but I tried them 1 thru 5 then 1 thru 5 again, and the results matched between each trial. The CMs were better than the other two in both sets of trials, with the RS being the worst.


I know that isn't real scientific data, since I have nothing to measure it with meter wise, but logically it seems to prove that the CMs are better than the other two, and at a few dollars a piece, I think it's a good investment!


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alphanguy* /forum/post/15844703
> 
> 
> Now, I've read some places that the lower noise figure makes more of a difference in digital reception... exactly what kind of difference?



I haven't used any RS preamps,but I'm sure they've had some decent ones in the past.I've used CM,Winegard,Blonder-Tongue,Research-Com,and Emcee.The lower noise(.5db) seem to work slightly better,but the margin is very small.If you expect to bring in those night-time receivables at 2 PM the next day,dream on-ain't gonna happen.It will take much more than the preamp alone because the signal is basically"not there".Large stacked arrays on a very tall tower,then maybe,but no guarantees.


----------



## dewster1977




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/15836756
> 
> 
> I did some research and found information on an antenna that was snagged with the tower. It appears to be a Channel Master Quantum. I'm not sure which model (it's not the 1111), but I think it must be a 1162, 1161, or a 1160A. It has nine front directors, two sets (top/bottom) of L1-L5 UHF elements, and two sets (top/bottom) of five VHF elements (the last two sets (longest) are broken off), three sets of floating directors, and four (maybe five), top-side, center directors. Seems like it's the major antenna around here. I see it everywhere.
> 
> 
> Would this be better than my CM3020?



Both DTT-901's I have installed for friends have been on Quantums 1 on a 1160 and 1 on a 1162, on the 1160 I was able to get all DC and Baltimore stations with the antenna in one position (rotators broken). On the 1162 I was able to get all DC execpt WTTG all Baltimore, Lancanster, York and WLYH. Hagerstown, Martinsburg (even W08EE at 300 watts) and WYVP out of Front Royal (with a Rotator) You see many Quantums in this area (for there UHF ability)


----------



## alphanguy

I've seen many of these single channel yagis and UHF yagis from them with narrow frequency range. Quite pricey... but they say theyr'e 75 OHM impedance, I guess they don't need a balun? The UHF for channels 14-19 says it's gain is 12.2, with a front to back ratio of 21. These are pricey, what is the advantage to these? Or are they just overpriced? Other much cheaper antenna advertize the same amount of gain.


----------



## kedirekin

The pre-amp question can be complicated by so many factors.


With regard to noise figure and digital reception, and keeping everything as simple and straight-forward as possible, the reason it makes more of a difference is because of the all-or-nothing nature of digital.


Say for example you had a signal coming out of your antenna that was 20 dB above the noise floor. If you use a pre-amp with a 3 dB noise figure, you might retain enough signal-to-noise headroom to get a lock and decode a perfect picture. If you use a pre-amp with a 6 dB noise figure, you might end up with no picture at all.


With analog, that 3 dB difference in noise figure would make a significant difference in picture quality, but you'd still get something. With digital, it's the difference between a perfect picture and nothing at all.


That is a drastic over-simplification, but hopefully that will give you an idea why people might say noise figure makes more of a difference with digital (a statement I don't necessarily agree with).


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/15835589
> 
> 
> AD's marketing hype reminds me of Monster



If A. D. spent more time making decent antennas than they do trying to mislead the public with marketing hype and downright lies, they would probably come up with something I would consider buying.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alphanguy* /forum/post/15849721
> 
> 
> I've seen many of these single channel yagis and UHF yagis from them with narrow frequency range. Quite pricey... but they say theyr'e 75 OHM impedance, I guess they don't need a balun? The UHF for channels 14-19 says it's gain is 12.2, with a front to back ratio of 21. These are pricey, what is the advantage to these? Or are they just overpriced? Other much cheaper antenna advertize the same amount of gain.



B-T antennas are reportedly of heavier duty construction to survive high winds,

long term reliability for commercial users.....and perhaps crows sitting on them.....


All 75-ohm antennas (like W-G YA-1713 et. al.) use a 1:1 Balun so that

the antenna pattern is not disturbed by an unbalanced feed and to minimize

local "common mode" noise pickup....the reverse of the argument for

using 1:1 Baluns in transmit antennas--prevent radiation leakage from coax.


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: Someone in our local forum found A-D ClearStream C1, C2 & C4 Spec Sheets:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/pdf/C1-sellsheet.pdf 
http://www.antennasdirect.com/pdf/C2-sellsheet.pdf 
http://www.antennasdirect.com/pdf/C4-sellsheet.pdf 


Note C4 gain is about 12 dBi, which is a lot lower than "14.8 dBi" found on website:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/C4-Cle...V-antenna.html 
http://www.antennasdirect.com/pdf/ClearStream.pdf 

but is much more consistent with C2 specs.


BTW: In C2 & C4 Gain/VSWR Charts, Y-axis is trying to do double duty.

But VSWR should be labeled as a scalar number---NOT dB like Gain:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/ClearStream2Gain.html


----------



## holl_ands

With Analog you can crank the attenuator over a fairly wide range from OKAY to NOGO.

Digital has a much narrower range going from OKAY to NOGO....and is very noticeable

when there are intermittent dropouts...vice Analog which is fuzzy anyway you look at it.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> BTW: In C2 & C4 Gain/VSWR Charts, Y-axis is trying to do double duty.
> 
> But VSWR should be labeled as a scalar number---NOT dB like Gain:



Ahh, I missed that point on my first read thru some time ago. My pet peeve is labeling the graph "Directivity" instead of Directive Gain. Directivity only implies angular position to me. Who does their graphs, heh ?


I also note that the reflectors shown in the above ClearStream.pdf literature are not what I measured at my local Best Buy's ClearStream2. I measured 1 1/2" X 2" mesh running the other way and the edges were bent on the sides instead of at the top and bottom. So there seems to have been a production change.


----------



## mattdp

Thanks everybody for the information. I will most likely be ordering CM baluns and (hopefully) getting a new Winegard AP-8780 with power supply, etc... One of these days IT WILL WORK PROPERLY. Even if it doesn't, 2 CBS, 1 MyNet, 1 CW, 7 PBS Subs and 2 Fox really isn't too bad for our viewing needs.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dewster1977* /forum/post/15848888
> 
> 
> …Quantums 1 on a 1160 and 1 on a 1162…



Can you give a brief discription of the differences and how they compare to mine?


Do they have the Pre-Amplifier module installed (mine doesn't)?


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/15832014
> 
> 
> Is there a reason why TV antennas aren't manufactured with 75 ohm impedence instead of 300 ohm?



A folded dipole has a natural impedence close to 300 ohms over a fairly wide bandwidth. Folded dipoles used to feed Yagis and corner reflectors are still closer to 300 ohms than 75, as are the multi-bowtie antennas. And of course 4:1 baluns are much more common than 1:1 baluns, which is an incentive for manufacturers to stick to 300 ohms. Even with a 75 ohm antenna, you can't just feed it from coax without a balun.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/15862954
> 
> 
> Even with a 75 ohm antenna, you can't just feed it from coax without a balun.



I remember having a single channel cut yagi back when we had a subscription OTA TV service here in DC.(Super TV-UHF 50) I don't remember it having any kind of balun. The driven element was only half the width of the director and reflector elements.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/15859104
> 
> 
> Can you give a brief discription of the differences and how they compare to mine?
> 
> 
> Do they have the Pre-Amplifier module installed (mine doesn't)?



Both Quantums I owned had the pre-amplifier module.(1110 & 4248). I thought they all did.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/15862954
> 
> 
> A folded dipole has a natural impedence close to 300 ohms over a fairly wide bandwidth. Folded dipoles used to feed Yagis and corner reflectors are still closer to 300 ohms than 75, as are the multi-bowtie antennas. And of course 4:1 baluns are much more common than 1:1 baluns, which is an incentive for manufacturers to stick to 300 ohms.



Thanks for the explanation.


----------



## systems2000

There was an old A/C powered Channel Master Pre-Amp attached to it and I've seen Pre-Amp modules available on the net. http://www.ultrasatellite.com/product_p/0100c.htm


----------



## MaDequipment

I watched an episode of Make, a new Do-it-yourself show on my local PBS station and saw them give instructions on how to make an HDTV antenna. For anyone interested, this is the video . So I want to build the following antenna seeing as how paying for basic cable to get a compressed signal is pointless. Anyways, my question is whether or not my plan to build the antenna will be in vain since I want to receive some VHF channels. In the instructional PDF, it says that the antenna will easily receive UHF signals, but I want to know whether or not it will work with VHF as well. If not, is there anything I can add to the antenna to make it receive VHF?


----------



## arxaw

They may call it a "digital" antenna (there's no such thing), but it may not work too well on VHF digital channels, because it's a UHF antenna. Rabbit ears would probably work better for VHF channels.


----------



## d510d180

Getting tired of of good designs being demonstrated all wrong (phasing lines way to far appart, between other flaws). Why can people doing videos on the web take the time to validate what they did... See accurate designs and other peoples DIY antennas all over in a sibling forum. See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post15480499 

for quick visual introduction. Search for DB4 or channel master 4221 and PDFs attachments, that should start you on the right foot.


----------



## MaDequipment

Are you saying that the instructions for the antenna I posted are incorrect?


----------



## d510d180




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MaDequipment* /forum/post/15875242
> 
> 
> Are you saying that the instructions for the antenna I posted are incorrect?



Are you PBS or the guy in the video? I don't think so. What I'm saying is that you may just have merely linked a video with good intentions, but this material is a misleading example of how to make a UHF antenna (and you can drop the hdtv prefix the vendors are pushing, it is dumb as commercial bs can be).


I invite readers to search the web for DIY antenna, as stated earlier. I gave also a link of a large forum that will satisfy the most perfectionists.


----------



## rabbit73

The antenna would work if you have strong signals in your area but the dimensions are not optimum.


The antenna illustrated is not a Hoverman but what we call a 4-bay bowtie antenna for UHF. The Hoverman, which is very popular on the Canada forum, has a zig zag arrangement of vertical wires.


The 8" elements on each side (we call them "whiskers") are usually about 9" for the new smaller UHF band.


The vertical spacing between each bay is usually about the same as the whisker length, or slightly less. The commercial version by Channel Master is the 4221 with whiskers and vertical spacing at 8".


What channels are you trying for? Go to tvfool.com and enter your zip code, or for greater accuracy, your exact address. Click on save for the combined results of post transition, and post the results from your hard drive as an attachment. The exact address will not show up in the attachment. Or, let us know what the zip code is and we will go to tvfool for you.


If you also need VHF, you would use a separate antenna (like rabbit ears) that is combined with the UHF antenna with a UHF/VHF combiner called a UVSJ.


----------



## Laszlo1

Experts,


Has anyone compared the Philips MANT940 outside installation to DB2/DB4 or any other similar antennas ?


I got a Philips MANT940 which I could still return (it works fine), so I was wondering if there is anything better for digital reception out there or I should stay with this one.


Thanks,

Laszlo


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/15875582
> 
> 
> The antenna illustrated is not a Hoverman but what we call a 4-bay bowtie antenna for UHF. The Hoverman, which is very popular on the Canada forum, has a zig zag arrangement of vertical wires.
> 
> 
> The 8" elements on each side (we call them "whiskers") are usually about 9" for the new smaller UHF band.
> 
> 
> The vertical spacing between each bay is usually about the same as the whisker length, or slightly less. The commercial version by Channel Master is the 4221 with whiskers and vertical spacing at 8".



I saw that episode and it reminded me of The Myth Busters and the local news programs because it had errors that were obvious to someone who knew something about the topic.


What can you trust from someone like that when the subject matter of their program is something of which you don't have much knowlege?


How can you trust him for anything?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> How can you trust him for anything?



Well, it is just a general purpose type show and some of the other crap they make is interesting. Maybe it spurred some to write in or to investigate further.


After all, I do scream at the set when Norm uses an expensive tool when a cheap one would suffice, heh.


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15879906
> 
> 
> After all, I do scream at the set when Norm uses an expensive tool when a cheap one would suffice, heh.



you're just a galoot


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Norm's New Million Dollar Yankee Workshop.


----------



## MaDequipment




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *d510d180* /forum/post/15875525
> 
> 
> Are you PBS or the guy in the video? I don't think so. What I'm saying is that you may just have merely linked a video with good intentions, but this material is a misleading example of how to make a UHF antenna (and you can drop the hdtv prefix the vendors are pushing, it is dumb as commercial bs can be).
> 
> 
> I invite readers to search the web for DIY antenna, as stated earlier. I gave also a link of a large forum that will satisfy the most perfectionists.



I'm obviously neither. Your phrasing of your response, was simply confusing, and I apologize if you took my second response the wrong way. I also understand that there is no such thing as an HDTV antenna, but you can't disagree that there are certainly antennas with specific designs capable of enhancing the reception of signals. Hence, I asked the question about whether those designs I linked to were wrong, so I might be able to choose a one that works. I appreciate your Linking to a forum with over 61 pages of various designs, but the fact that there are multitudes of different measurements really didn't assist me in making conclusions about choosing a design. Although, upon plugging in my location to TVFool, I discovered, that there are supposedley no VHF broadcasters in my area, a contradiction to antennaweb. Looks like I'll be just experimenting to see what works best.


----------



## d510d180




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MaDequipment* /forum/post/15880669
> 
> 
> I'm obviously neither. Your phrasing of your response, was simply confusing, and I apologize if you took my second response the wrong way. I also understand that there is no such thing as an HDTV antenna, but you can't disagree that there are certainly antennas with specific designs capable of enhancing the reception of signals. Hence, I asked the question about whether those designs I linked to were wrong, so I might be able to choose a one that works. I appreciate your Linking to a forum with over 61 pages of various designs, but the fact that there are multitudes of different measurements really didn't assist me in making conclusions about choosing a design. Although, upon plugging in my location to TVFool, I discovered, that there are supposedley no VHF broadcasters in my area, a contradiction to antennaweb. Looks like I'll be just experimenting to see what works best.



Yeah, the DIY forum is a mess. Far too long and too much blogging. It is so long in fact that I couldn't take the time to point the exact post numbers to help you right away. I would recommend starting from the end and navigate backward.


You may also want to navigate by posters. It shows collaborators like mclapp, rabbit73 and 300ohms which are around often. But your homework (to avoid repeting questions) would be to look for .pdf attachments. I know that's where I found the measurements anyway.


Have fun!


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/15880395
> 
> 
> Norm's New Million Dollar Yankee Workshop.



The same reason Bob Vila left *This Old House*! The projects were "beyond the average viewers means" and then they put that dweeb Steve in there







...had to bring in Norm to prop up the show....


But hey a Million here, a Million there, pretty soon, you're talking REAL money!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> and then they put that dweeb Steve in there



Heh, youre not the first person to say that. They might as well have put that gal from Hometime, who is constantly out of breath, in there.


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15881189
> 
> 
> Heh, youre not the first person to say that. They might as well have put that gal from Hometime, who is constantly out of breath, in there.



The tall original blond or the fiesty petite one?? (I liked either one...Didnt the guy marry one of them?)


----------



## GSB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *d510d180* /forum/post/15880828
> 
> 
> Yeah, the DIY forum is a mess. Far too long and too much blogging. It is so long in fact that I couldn't take the time to point the exact post numbers to help you right away.



I couldn't agree more. Its a shame, really, because there are some phenomenal designs, ideas, and simulations scattered all over the place - buried deeply within multiple threads and across multiple forums. For a newcomer, such as myself, finding those nuggets, and separating the accurate from the inaccurate, is a monumental task - and I'm an experienced electronics engineer!


I have been so impressed with what I've learned from the devoted gurus here. It would be truly remarkable if one of you could start a new thread, where the first post could be maintained and updated with the best designs (or links to them) along with clear and simple explanations of the advantages and disadvantages of each antenna type, common acronyms, and the latest and most accurate information about materials, cables, baluns, combiners, etc. I see the same old questions come up again and again. Directing them to the first post would be so much easier.


EscapeVelocity's indoor antenna thread is a shining example of usefulness to a newcomer. Once you can understand and visualize the basics, you can then dig deeper into the various threads to search for more specifics and opinions on the antenna or topic of interest.


With the digital transition, the interest in OTA has increased tremendously, but many are put off, not knowing where to start, or how to handle the UHF + VHF dilemma.


Gary


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Laszlo1* /forum/post/15877990
> 
> 
> I got a Philips MANT940 which I could still return (it works fine), so I was wondering if there is anything better for digital reception out there or I should stay with this one.



If the MANT940 has problems with some channels, but if it works for the channels *you* want *at your location*, there's no reason to get something else.


----------



## Jim Miller

I'm considering a CM-2020 for inside my attic. I'm 30 miles north of Baltimore with two ridgelines to deal with. Any hope or should I just forget it? With my highwind location and all the leak problems I've had with my roof I'm not willing to put one up outside.


I'm only interested in pointing to the south.


tnx

jtm


----------



## systems2000

I'm in Chambersburg (67 miles from the Baltimore transmitters) and have two very high ridges (at least 1200'), using a CM3020 on a 40' tower with a pre-amplifier. I'm able to get WMAR, WBAL, WJZ, WUTB, & WNUV.


This link will help you understand what you're up against. Erecting a TV antenna


----------



## twaller

OK, this question is: Why does this work?

I have a 91XG with very high directional gain the UHF. This was great for my location until Feb 17th because all stations in the 3 markets that I get OTA were UHF. On Feb 17 one station WILX-DT in Lansing went back their (analog) RF 10 for their digital broadcasts. I was hopeful that the 91XG had enough gain in hi VHF to still get a usable signal. No luck, with the antenna pointed directly at the station - 0%. Oh well, I figure that I must change to a UHF/VHF combo to get this station. Then, to my surprise, while the antenna was pointed roughly 90 deg off (For the Detroit Market) Digital 10 comes in at 70%!


How could this be? Any ideas?


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jim Miller* /forum/post/15883611
> 
> 
> I'm considering a CM-2020 for inside my attic. I'm 30 miles north of Baltimore with two ridgelines to deal with. Any hope or should I just forget it? With my highwind location and all the leak problems I've had with my roof I'm not willing to put one up outside.
> 
> 
> I'm only interested in pointing to the south.
> 
> 
> tnx
> 
> jtm



I'm thinking anything in the attic may be a gamble. I would go with nothing less than the Winegard 7697 or 7698. A separate VHF & UHF antenna would be better, but not too easy to work with in most attics. You need every ounce of gain you can get. WBAL-DT 11 will be going back to VHF in June with only a modest amount of power. There will be _"many"_ disappointed WBAL viewers.


You will certainly need a pre-amp also. I recommend the Channel Master 7777 because of it's low noise rating.


----------



## Jim Miller

Thanks for the inputs. I think I'll put the antenna up and add the preamp if necessary. There will only be a direct connect to the big screen in the FR, no other drops. The figure I posted was "post [6/2009] transition" so I think it should be representative of wbal freq and power.


we seldom get any snow here and this would be facing out the south hip of the roof which clears immediately anyway. probably as good as it gets without going out a gable.


this is strictly an addition rather than a replacement for now so if it is less than perfect, oh well.


jtm


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *twaller* /forum/post/15884569
> 
> 
> OK, this question is: Why does this work?
> 
> I have a 91XG with very high directional gain the UHF. This was great for my location until Feb 17th because all stations in the 3 markets that I get OTA were UHF. On Feb 17 one station WILX-DT in Lansing went back their (analog) RF 10 for their digital broadcasts. I was hopeful that the 91XG had enough gain in hi VHF to still get a usable signal. No luck, with the antenna pointed directly at the station - 0%. Oh well, I figure that I must change to a UHF/VHF combo to get this station. Then, to my surprise, while the antenna was pointed roughly 90 deg off (For the Detroit Market) Digital 10 comes in at 70%!
> 
> 
> How could this be? Any ideas?



The balun is probably acting as a VHF antenna. I have tried to pick up a low power channel 8(198 watts) with my 91-XG, and it won't decode. Even though it is only 6 miles away, I can't see much difference in signal strength, no matter which way the antenna is pointed. A more distant VHF-12 (23 kw) @ 65 miles out doesn't even move the signal strength meter.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *twaller* /forum/post/15884569
> 
> 
> How could this be? Any ideas?



Are you using any 300 Ohm cable? If so, how much 300 Ohm cable are you using?


The pre-amp for my system has about 10' of 300 Ohm between it and the antenna. I've found that the 300 Ohm routing can make or break my DTV reception.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *twaller* /forum/post/15884569
> 
> 
> OK, this question is: Why does this work?
> 
> I have a 91XG with very high directional gain the UHF. This was great for my location until Feb 17th because all stations in the 3 markets that I get OTA were UHF. On Feb 17 one station WILX-DT in Lansing went back their (analog) RF 10 for their digital broadcasts. I was hopeful that the 91XG had enough gain in hi VHF to still get a usable signal. No luck, with the antenna pointed directly at the station - 0%. Oh well, I figure that I must change to a UHF/VHF combo to get this station. Then, to my surprise, while the antenna was pointed roughly 90 deg off (For the Detroit Market) Digital 10 comes in at 70%!
> 
> 
> How could this be? Any ideas?



When the XG is pointed straight at 10 it's not wide enough to be illuminated with the wider wavelength signal.When you turn it to an oblique angle it starts illuminating and becoming and end-fed diploe.Same thing happens with a highband antenna when you turn it nearly perpendicular to the wavefront of a lowband signal.Now you know.


And thanks for the heads-up on WILX moving from 57 back to 10.I'll be on the lookout with the stacked highbanders pointed straight at them.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *twaller* /forum/post/15884569
> 
> 
> OK, this question is: Why does this work?
> 
> I have a 91XG with very high directional gain the UHF. This was great for my location until Feb 17th because all stations in the 3 markets that I get OTA were UHF. On Feb 17 one station WILX-DT in Lansing went back their (analog) RF 10 for their digital broadcasts. I was hopeful that the 91XG had enough gain in hi VHF to still get a usable signal. No luck, with the antenna pointed directly at the station - 0%. Oh well, I figure that I must change to a UHF/VHF combo to get this station. Then, to my surprise, while the antenna was pointed roughly 90 deg off (For the Detroit Market) Digital 10 comes in at 70%!
> 
> 
> How could this be? Any ideas?



Yes, "through the back" reception of hi vhf with a uhf yagi style antenna is well known. Roughly, the length of antenna the signal "sees" varies with wavelength for max gain. In other words, channel 13 is more purely "through the back" and the lower channels require progressively more broadside.


----------



## alphanguy

I guess that explains why my 91-XG pulled in analog channel 9 through the back so well. IT still pulls in some stations through teh backside like nobodies business, others.. not so much.


----------



## twaller




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/15885300
> 
> 
> Are you using any 300 Ohm cable? If so, how much 300 Ohm cable are you using?
> 
> 
> The pre-amp for my system has about 10' of 300 Ohm between it and the antenna. I've found that the 300 Ohm routing can make or break my DTV reception.



No 300 Ohm cable is involved, but there is a VHF/UHF Pre-amp.


----------



## twaller




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/15886697
> 
> 
> When the XG is pointed straight at 10 it's not wide enough to be illuminated with the wider wavelength signal.When you turn it to an oblique angle it starts illuminating and becoming and end-fed diploe.Same thing happens with a highband antenna when you turn it nearly perpendicular to the wavefront of a lowband signal.Now you know.
> 
> 
> And thanks for the heads-up on WILX moving from 57 back to 10.I'll be on the lookout with the stacked highbanders pointed straight at them.



This makes sense. It is weird that turning this 90 deg from the source makes it work. I think that the reflectors are great for UHF gain, but do absolutely nothing with VHF. In fact, there are some very strong UHF signals exactly in the same direction as RF 10. (WLNS DT and WKAR DT both about 10 miles away). Maybe the UHF Signals overwhelm the signal on 10.


----------



## nybbler

A while ago I ran a simulation on a 91XG boom and driven element only, and it does have some gain on some VHF channels at 90 degrees to the direction it's pointed.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GSB* /forum/post/15882834
> 
> 
> With the digital transition, the interest in OTA has increased tremendously, but many are put off, not knowing where to start, or how to handle the UHF + VHF dilemma.
> 
> 
> Gary



Maybe we could help casual readers by not talking about UHF antennas' VHF reception with so much enthusiasm.


Isn't discussing UHF antennas' VHF abilities sort of like discussing the merits of using one model of wrench to drive nails vs another model of wrench to drive nails? If you need a hammer, get a hammer !


(sorry for the lame analogy, but I thought there was a This Old House theme going here.)


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/15889110
> 
> 
> Maybe we could help casual readers by not talking about UHF antennas' VHF reception with so much enthusiasm.
> 
> 
> Isn't discussing UHF antennas' VHF abilities sort of like discussing the merits of using one model of wrench to drive nails vs another model of wrench to drive nails? If you need a hammer, get a hammer !
> 
> 
> (sorry for the lame analogy, but I thought there was a This Old House theme going here.)



some hi vhf (11 and above) if they are strong can be received with a uhf antenna. if a person has a station in that high end of hi vhf with a strong signal then they might need only a uhf antenna. that can lead to a cost savings and also a tremendous size savings and a tremendous maintenance savings (less wind load and mechanically much stronger so they will last longer).


the goal is getting the signal and it doesn't matter so much how you do it. i feel compelled to make a bad analogy too; you don't care what is in the sausage or how it's made you just want to eat it.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnpost* /forum/post/15890389
> 
> 
> some hi vhf (11 and above) if they are strong can be received with a uhf antenna.



Some UHF antennas (like my old CM4228) do just fine on quite a few highband VHF channels. I get channels 9, 10 & 13 on mine very well. The stations range from 45 to 70+ miles away.


And it survived our recent ice storms with no damage, unlike many VHF/UHF combos around here which wilted from the weight of the ice, and will have to be replaced.


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnpost* /forum/post/15890389
> 
> 
> some hi vhf (11 and above) if they are strong can be received with a uhf antenna.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/15890452
> 
> 
> Some UHF antennas (like my old CM4228) do just fine on quite a few highband VHF channels. I get channels 9, 10 & 13 on mine very well. The stations range from 45 to 70+ miles away.
> 
> 
> And it survived our recent ice storms with no damage, unlike many VHF/UHF combos around here which wilted from the weight of the ice, and will have to be replaced.



i was trying to make a conservative statement that would apply to many antennas and lots of people's situation.


good on your antennas. if people had better knowledge of what some antennas could really do and the channel strengths for their area then lots of people might get by with uhf only antennas especially with few final assignments in lo vhf. let your friends and neighbors with busted antennas know about it.


----------



## Green-Elf

Hey all, I have a question and this seems like the place to post it considering the direction this thread has been going.


I have one of those homebrew DB4 antennas that you may have seen boucing around the web recently. I built it to show my wife how much better one of these would be than our old amplified rabbit ears, but it worked a little too well and now she dosent see the need to spend more on a real one.


My problem is with a neighbors ancient truck.


When this truck is running most of my stations get lousy reception. I can hear this truck even at idle from inside my house. Once they leave the area the TV reception clears up almost imediately.


It took me a while to put 2 and 2 together but now that I have I would like to know if there is a way to mitigate this interferance? I'd like the truck to die a quick death on the side of the road, it really is an eyesore. Barring some sort of divine intervention anybody have any ideas?


Oh, and just to irritate some of the people on this thread: My homemade db4 recives the only VHF channel in my area (channel 7) from 30+ miles away just fine.


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Green-Elf* /forum/post/15891853
> 
> 
> Hey all, I have a question and this seems like the place to post it considering the direction this thread has been going.
> 
> 
> I have one of those homebrew DB4 antennas that you may have seen boucing around the web recently. I built it to show my wife how much better one of these would be than our old amplified rabbit ears, but it worked a little too well and now she dosent see the need to spend more on a real one.
> 
> 
> My problem is with a neighbors ancient truck.
> 
> 
> When this truck is running most of my stations get lousy reception. I can hear this truck even at idle from inside my house. Once they leave the area the TV reception clears up almost imediately.
> 
> 
> It took me a while to put 2 and 2 together but now that I have I would like to know if there is a way to mitigate this interferance? I'd like the truck to die a quick death on the side of the road, it really is an eyesore. Barring some sort of divine intervention anybody have any ideas?
> 
> 
> Oh, and just to irritate some of the people on this thread: My homemade db4 recives the only VHF channel in my area (channel 7) from 30+ miles away just fine.



most solutions wouldn't be legal.


a store bought antenna will likely be affected just as much in the same location. if either antenna were on the roof both may be affected less.


also high quality shielding on your system might help. cheap single shield coax could let in interference more.


suggest the owner do some maintenance. a bad distributor or bad plug wires could create lots of noise. if it's an antique they may want to use only period appropriate parts. if it's just a beater then they might be willing to upgrade.


good doing on your antenna and its performance.


----------



## ctdish

The easiest thing to try to deal with the truck is to get the best signal and be as far away from the truck as possible. This would mean up high as possible and on the opposite side of the house from the truck location.

John


----------



## Green-Elf

I thought about upgrading the coax feeding the antenna but I worry that the cheap coax I am using right now might be part of why I get channel 7.










At least I was able to figure out what is causing the disruption. That way at least my wifes ire is focused somewhere away from me and my handiwork.


I have seen a few different reccomendations on the bowtie length for the homemade db4s. Some say 7 inch some say 8 inch. Has anyone tried both? What is the typical length on the comercial versions?


----------



## IDRick

Green elf,


Check out the long thread on "how to build a uhf antenna" on this forum. The key factors for DIY 4 bays are whisker length, bay spacing, and phase line spacing. Longer whiskers cause the antenna to tune lower than shorter whiskers. I use a 10 inch whisker by 9.5 inch spacing DIY antenna. This gives me VHF reception and peaks gain just below ch 40. Gain drops quickly after ch 50. It all depends on which channels you are hoping to acquire.


HTH


Rick


----------



## audioxcel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/15817782
> 
> 
> Rule of thumb is 36 inches for uhf, 48 for hi vhf, and 60 for lo vhf. 36 would probably still be ok for hi vhf especially if you only need the higher vhf channels say 10 and above. Spacing to prevent interference is measured from nearest metallic elements.



Thanks much.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Green-Elf* /forum/post/15891853
> 
> 
> My problem is with a neighbors ancient truck.
> 
> 
> My homemade db4 recives the only VHF channel in my area (channel 7) from 30+ miles away just fine.



Which is it, problem or fine?


I bet that a real VHF antenna would do much better eliminating the interference from your neighbor's truck.


----------



## audioxcel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Green-Elf* /forum/post/15891853
> 
> 
> Hey all, I have a question and this seems like the place to post it considering the direction this thread has been going.
> 
> 
> I have one of those homebrew DB4 antennas that you may have seen boucing around the web recently. I built it to show my wife how much better one of these would be than our old amplified rabbit ears, but it worked a little too well and now she dosent see the need to spend more on a real one.
> 
> 
> My problem is with a neighbors ancient truck.
> 
> 
> When this truck is running most of my stations get lousy reception. I can hear this truck even at idle from inside my house. Once they leave the area the TV reception clears up almost imediately.
> 
> 
> It took me a while to put 2 and 2 together but now that I have I would like to know if there is a way to mitigate this interferance? I'd like the truck to die a quick death on the side of the road, it really is an eyesore. Barring some sort of divine intervention anybody have any ideas?
> 
> 
> Oh, and just to irritate some of the people on this thread: My homemade db4 recives the only VHF channel in my area (channel 7) from 30+ miles away just fine.



By ancient, I presume you mean pre electronic ignition.


You might ask if your neighbor also has problems with radio reception in the truck. If the radio (not the CD player) in the truck picks up engine noise, it might need a new condenser (older vehicles had one either inside or on the distributor). It used to be a $3 part and was usually easy to replace. A cracked distributor cap is another possibility but that should be causing problems (usually misfire) that your neighbor would notice when driving.


As someone else has mentioned, cheap or bad plug wires can also emit RF interference. If the plug wires are the problem, the repairs would be a win-win situation for both you and your neighbor. New wires would improve your neighbor's fuel consumption ($$$) and you would get better TV reception.


You might also ask if they are having problems with TV reception at their house. If they are not having problems with their TV, you might ask what their set up is. That might give you some clues unless they have cable.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Green-Elf* /forum/post/15892192
> 
> 
> I thought about upgrading the coax feeding the antenna but I worry that the cheap coax I am using right now might be part of why I get channel 7.



Don't worry about that. I'm sure we could find you a coat hanger to use if need be.


Just for fun, I'll throw this out there for you to think about. Consider switching from coax to twinlead all the way to your TV, or at least for the portion of the cable run that is broadside to the offending vehicle.


Properly installed twinlead can out-perform coax on noise rejection. The key there is the "properly installed". It's got to have twists, and it can't be near metal, and oh yes, it can't get wet...etc.


Excuse me now while I duck for cover.


----------



## Konrad2

> homebrew DB4 antennas


> When this truck is running most of my stations get lousy reception.


Buy or build more directional antennas, 1 for VHF, one for UHF.

Go for a narrow vertical beam pattern and get the antennas up high if

possible.


Filter out the non-TV frequencies. For UHF you can use a HLSJ diplexor

with the low port terminated (or routed to your FM tuner) to knock down

the stuff below VHF-HI, and a LPF-230 filter to knock down stuff above

VHF-HI. Same deal for UHF except use a UVSJ diplexor and a LPF-700.

Use good quality RG6 quad shield (or the Belden tri-shield) coax.

You might need more than one diplexor in series.


At this point you have done almost everything you can do on your end.

If you still get interference, ask your neighbor to repair the truck,

or report the truck to the FCC.


If the truck always parks in the same place you can try the two antenna

trick to aim a null at the truck. This is above and beyond the call of

duty.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html#TAT


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/15892671
> 
> 
> Excuse me now while I duck for cover.



Too Funny!!


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audioxcel* /forum/post/15892651
> 
> 
> By ancient, I presume you mean pre electronic ignition.
> 
> 
> You might ask if your neighbor also has problems with radio reception in the truck. If the radio (not the CD player) in the truck picks up engine noise, it might need a new condenser (older vehicles had one either inside or on the distributor). It used to be a $3 part and was usually easy to replace. A cracked distributor cap is another possibility but that should be causing problems (usually misfire) that your neighbor would notice when driving.
> 
> 
> As someone else has mentioned, cheap or bad plug wires can also emit RF interference. If the plug wires are the problem, the repairs would be a win-win situation for both you and your neighbor. New wires would improve your neighbor's fuel consumption ($$$) and you would get better TV reception.
> 
> 
> You might also ask if they are having problems with TV reception at their house. If they are not having problems with their TV, you might ask what their set up is. That might give you some clues unless they have cable.



Any vehicle causing ignition noise in the FM BC band definitely will have issues with its own internal radio (and I bet they have XMSirius or use the CD!)....If the noise IS that bad, yes, they NEED to change the plug wires AND plugs. The noise is an indication of an ARC.....an ARC is an indication of a broken wire or a cracked plug or both, hence, one cynlinder is not getting enough "fire"....and they are having poor performance (low gas mileage and possible knocking valves)......I would talk with your neighbor and let them know their truck is need of a tune up BAD!!! The plug wires need to be the resistive type which reduces the impulse noise radiated....they have a SERIOUS problem if it is bothering your FM and TV that bad! If the truck is over 100K in mileage, its past due this maintenance anyway!!!


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/15892671
> 
> 
> Don't worry about that. I'm sure we could find you a coat hanger to use if need be.
> 
> 
> Just for fun, I'll throw this out there for you to think about. Consider switching from coax to twinlead all the way to your TV, or at least for the portion of the cable run that is broadside to the offending vehicle.
> 
> 
> Properly installed twinlead can out-perform coax on noise rejection. The key there is the "properly installed". It's got to have twists, and it can't be near metal, and oh yes, it can't get wet...etc.
> 
> 
> Excuse me now while I duck for cover.




Twinlead should not be twisted....IF properly jacketed, it can also get wet...but if it gets wet enough to short between the conductors on "open" wire type, it can cause a RF short....Since the noise is RADIATED, switching feedlines will not change anything....it is picked up by his antenna and then down the feedline...be it coax or twin lead....no change would be noticed (open wire ladder line DOES have less loss but its a PITA to work with because it has to be kept away from metal)


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/15892472
> 
> 
> Which is it, problem or fine?
> 
> 
> I bet that a real VHF antenna would do much better eliminating the interference from your neighbor's truck.



$50 says you're wrong........if the truck is radiating within that channel bandpass, any antenna will pick it up! If a VHF antenna would have more gain, it would only ADD to the problem, not help it....


You can ONLY eliminate noise at the source...you can TRY to cover it up at the other end...but you can never eliminate it there (this from a former TVI/RFI tech for a public utility....been there, know how to fight it)


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr Touchtone* /forum/post/15893427
> 
> 
> Twinlead should not be twisted....IF properly jacketed, it can also get wet...but if it gets wet enough to short between the conductors on "open" wire type, it can cause a RF short....Since the noise is RADIATED, switching feedlines will not change anything....it is picked up by his antenna and then down the feedline...be it coax or twin lead....no change would be noticed (open wire ladder line DOES have less loss but its a PITA to work with because it has to be kept away from metal)



Twinlead should not be twisted? Since when? Twisting it is what gives you immunity to differential mode noise. Half-a-twist every 6 to 12 inches, is what many installation guides always said. I'm talking about plain vanila garden variety flat twinlead of course (not jacketed). The kind that anyone in this room more than 50 years old remembers seeing dangling along the outside of a house (maybe their own) in their neighborhood while growing up. It was probably flapping in the breeze, with a couple of stand-offs sticking out from it because they'd pulled out from the house's siding where they'd been installed. Or maybe it was (wrongly) stapled flat to the house's siding.


Yes, agreed, it was a major PITA to be installed and maintained correctly, that's why I worded my previous message the way I did.


I was just trying to bring into the discussion the point that coax (or shielding in general, for that matter) is often not the solution. Addressing the source of the noise is much better, but I wasn't sure if the noise was getting into the system at the antenna, or along the antenna lead.


----------



## Green-Elf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/15892472
> 
> 
> Which is it, problem or fine?
> 
> 
> I bet that a real VHF antenna would do much better eliminating the interference from your neighbor's truck.



The true answer is fine AND trouble, but not the way you are thinking.


The only VHF channel broadcasts on chan 7. That channel now never has less than 80% strength and is not affected by my neighbors truck. The channels that are affected are broadcast channels 15-43. Clearly only the UHF channels are affected.


The antenna is mounted in the attic of my two story home so it's as high as I can get it w/o moving to an outside mount. I know my wife will not go for that. As good as this antenna performs, it's far from being the best looking thing in the world. Repositioning the antenna has had no affect on eliminating the distortion.


Somebody else mentioned pointing a null at the truck but unfortunately that won't work. The truck parks almost in line with my direct line of the broadcast towers. There may be 5 degrees off but not enough for a null to work. I'd loose 90% of my local channels (and 100% of the ones I care about). Also, this happens even when the truck is driving around, not just at idle.


What makes this whole situation both more ridiculous and more frustrating at the same time is that this guy will let his truck idle to warm up for over 20 min at a time! Without the truck all of my channels come in crystal clear at above 75% signal. Not bad for a $5 antenna. It's just this odd thing that I am guessing I'll have to live with.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler

You know....snowballs are free....and they melt after sitting in a hot tailpipe...just watch them footyprints


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/15894002
> 
> 
> You know....snowballs are free....and they melt after sitting in a hot tailpipe...just watch them footyprints



Bananas work better (or so I hear







)


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Green-Elf* /forum/post/15893770
> 
> 
> The true answer is fine AND trouble, but not the way you are thinking.
> 
> 
> The only VHF channel broadcasts on chan 7. That channel now never has less than 80% strength and is not affected by my neighbors truck. The channels that are affected are broadcast channels 15-43. Clearly only the UHF channels are affected.
> 
> 
> The antenna is mounted in the attic of my two story home so it's as high as I can get it w/o moving to an outside mount. I know my wife will not go for that. As good as this antenna performs, it's far from being the best looking thing in the world. Repositioning the antenna has had no affect on eliminating the distortion.
> 
> 
> Somebody else mentioned pointing a null at the truck but unfortunately that won't work. The truck parks almost in line with my direct line of the broadcast towers. There may be 5 degrees off but not enough for a null to work. I'd loose 90% of my local channels (and 100% of the ones I care about). Also, this happens even when the truck is driving around, not just at idle.
> 
> 
> What makes this whole situation both more ridiculous and more frustrating at the same time is that this guy will let his truck idle to warm up for over 20 min at a time! Without the truck all of my channels come in crystal clear at above 75% signal. Not bad for a $5 antenna. It's just this odd thing that I am guessing I'll have to live with.



Now this IS odd....only UHF channels are affected?? WEIRD!!!! Are these channels DTV or analog?? (and your WIFE won't allow an outside antenna?? Tsk tsk tsk...cmon MAN....show some----oh never mind....we bachelors, divorced, have it easy I guess










If it were normal ignition noise, it would be worse on VHF and non existant in the U range....possibly made need to get someone with a spectrum analyzer out there to look at it (contact your local ham club; see if they have a TVI committee..if not, call the local power company and see if they have a TVI/RFI guy...if not, call the TV stations! Maybe they can help)...


I would be extremely curious as to what the cause is...and why you only get affected in the UHF range (is it that you only have UHF stations in that range???? Or have you tried looking on other channels in analog? Do you see any effect of his truck on the analog mode?).


Heck if I lived nearby, I would definitely be over with my R2670 service monitor/spectrum analyzer to see what this is...you have my curiosity up!!


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/15893696
> 
> 
> Twinlead should not be twisted? Since when? Twisting it is what gives you immunity to differential mode noise. Half-a-twist every 6 to 12 inches, is what many installation guides always said. I'm talking about plain vanila garden variety flat twinlead of course (not jacketed). The kind that anyone in this room more than 50 years old remembers seeing dangling along the outside of a house (maybe their own) in their neighborhood while growing up. It was probably flapping in the breeze, with a couple of stand-offs sticking out from it because they'd pulled out from the house's siding where they'd been installed. Or maybe it was (wrongly) stapled flat to the house's siding.
> 
> 
> Yes, agreed, it was a major PITA to be installed and maintained correctly, that's why I worded my previous message the way I did.
> 
> 
> I was just trying to bring into the discussion the point that coax (or shielding in general, for that matter) is often not the solution. Addressing the source of the noise is much better, but I wasn't sure if the noise was getting into the system at the antenna, or along the antenna lead.



If this is radiated noise, twisting will not stop the antenna from picking up the noise and the feedline taking it to the rcvr....True, it would stop the LINE from picking up differential noise mode but I dont think this is the case....Also balanced line is just that...BALANCED to already prevent such differential issues....twisting really doesnt help it that much IF the system is balanced already....(btw I am in the 1/2century group...been in broadcasting since my late teens and a ham since age 14)


There IS shielded balanced line (or you can make it out of coax...two parallel runs of coax with the shields tied together and use the center conductors as the "balanced" line works)...and it CAN go next to metal, etc....ahhhhh, what a relief!










However, after reading his other post, he has one WEIRD problem.....I dont think its his kind of line


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Green-Elf* /forum/post/15893770
> 
> 
> The true answer is fine AND trouble, but not the way you are thinking.
> 
> 
> The only VHF channel broadcasts on chan 7. That channel now never has less than 80% strength and is not affected by my neighbors truck. The channels that are affected are broadcast channels 15-43. Clearly only the UHF channels are affected.
> 
> 
> The antenna is mounted in the attic of my two story home so it's as high as I can get it w/o moving to an outside mount. I know my wife will not go for that. As good as this antenna performs, it's far from being the best looking thing in the world. Repositioning the antenna has had no affect on eliminating the distortion.
> 
> 
> Somebody else mentioned pointing a null at the truck but unfortunately that won't work. The truck parks almost in line with my direct line of the broadcast towers. There may be 5 degrees off but not enough for a null to work. I'd loose 90% of my local channels (and 100% of the ones I care about). Also, this happens even when the truck is driving around, not just at idle.
> 
> 
> What makes this whole situation both more ridiculous and more frustrating at the same time is that this guy will let his truck idle to warm up for over 20 min at a time! Without the truck all of my channels come in crystal clear at above 75% signal. Not bad for a $5 antenna. It's just this odd thing that I am guessing I'll have to live with.



Does it run rough while he's waiting for it to warm up???

Is your interference worse when he first fires it up???

That could indicate moisture in the distributor burning off.


Can you hear/see whether interference impulses are due to a single cylinder

misfiring (fairly infrequent pulses) or if it's being generated in all cylinders???


If it sounds like a single cylinder then a dirty spark plug, a bad spark wire

or bad distributor cap are suspect. I would disconnect one wire at a time

and if it DOESN'T make the idle rougher, you've found the bad cylinder.


A new distributor cap, rotor, capacitor and (presumably non-platinum)

spark plugs are very inexpensive and spark wire set designed for that

particular vehicle should be readily available and not too expensive.

Perhaps you can offer to help install it for him???


If it's a normal truck, you can do some research and help him avoid

replacing the spark plug set with non-resistor type wires. Resistor type

spark plug wires suppress interference at the source and are available

for even antique vehicles that did not have them originally.

You'll also have to research whether his vehicle is designed to use resistor type spark plugs

with (or without) resistor-type spark plug wires.


I prefer spark plug wire sets that are custom pre-cut for my vehicle, but

universal, fit anything kits are very easy to cut to length and crimp the

distributor connector.


Hot Rod guys (and Hot Rod wannabes) frequently use non-resistor type spark plug

wires along with extremely high voltage (e.g. lethal) ignition systems and very high

compression ratio engines that require special higher-than-pump octane fuel.

If he has a hopped up truck, it's unlikely you'll be able to talk him into

changing the ignition system although he should be keeping it on a trailer

when he ferries it between the drag strip and the aviation gas fuel station.


Since we're already somewhat OT....old engines were designed to use leaded gas,

which lubricated the valve seats. With leaded gas no longer available, gasoline additives

are available to lubricated the valve seats, but knocking can still occur due to reduction

of pump-gas octane (hence the use of AVGas and racing fuel in hot rods).

If this is the REAL reason your neighbor takes a long time to warm up his engine, help

him check into WATER INJECTION systems, which pump a mist directly into the air cleaner.

They're a lot cheaper in the long run than buying gas additives and can be quite effective

on those 60's era muscle cars.


----------



## boss GT

Which preamp would you be able to recommend for my sister. She is located LOS 14 miles from the transmitters, lots of tall oaks in the back yard, but is getting good reception on some channels and spotty drop outs on others. Set up: 3rd floor attic pointing through glass window toward antenna farm... RS U75R antenna ....75 feet or more of cable. Antenna feed is going into the coax input of a dvr/vcr unit, and then into the TV. Signal seems to be bouncing up and down on some channels - especially with the wind.. when signals are stable she is at 1/2 to 3/4 on the signal bar... Could a winegard HD269 help? Seems she might need a little more gain due to indoor mount and long cable run.... any thoughts, I don't want to overdrive the signal being 14 miles away.


Thanks


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *boss GT* /forum/post/15896564
> 
> 
> Which preamp would you be able to recommend for my sister. She is located LOS 14 miles from the transmitters, lots of tall oaks in the back yard, but is getting good reception on some channels and spotty drop outs on others. Set up: 3rd floor attic pointing through glass window toward antenna farm... RS U75R antenna ....75 feet or more of cable. Antenna feed is going into the coax input of a dvr/vcr unit, and then into the TV. Signal seems to be bouncing up and down on some channels - especially with the wind.. when signals are stable she is at 1/2 to 3/4 on the signal bar... Could a winegard HD269 help? Seems she might need a little more gain due to indoor mount and long cable run.... any thoughts, I don't want to overdrive the signal being 14 miles away.
> 
> 
> Thanks



No splits? If not, on that run of cable the signal could be too strong even with lower gain, HDP-269 amp... Sounds a lot like multipath to me... I would not bother with the amp at those distances, unless it is being split 4+ times.. Maybe a low gain/low noise distribution amp at best... Some tuners can handle multipath better then others, which is she using?


----------



## Tobias Ziegler

Well guys, there's only one solution left to us.


We have to drop the "This Old House" line of thought...


and switch to "Car Talk".


Clique? Claque? Are you out there, guys?


----------



## boss GT

she is running the RG6 quad into a Panasonic DMR-EZ47V and then into the tv input (Phillips 32PF7421d/37) -LCD - I just had to upgrade her software yesterday for the TV... everytime they turned it off, the OTA channels wouldn't save in memory. Turn it back on, and the channels disappeared - for those growing up in the 70's like me, it was like a "close and play".


dbm's are -26.1 to -51.2 and db's are anywhere from 39 to 64.5


----------



## boss GT

here is the TV fool results for my sisters location


----------



## nwiser

As far as VHF elements on antennas go, I've seen antennas with them sticking straight out from the main boom (90 degrees), and then others like the one I have, have them sticking out at an angle (maybe 35-45 degrees).


Why the difference with various manufacturers and what advantages, if any, does one orientation provide over the other?


----------



## Green-Elf

Ok, I'll see if I can answer all the questions...


I don't know if it only affects UHF. What I DO know is that it does not affect the only VHF channels in my broadcast range, which are 7.1 & 7.27 (broadcasting on VHF channel 7) All other 'VHF' channels in my range are all actually broadcasting in the UHF range. It may affect some higher VHF frequencies but I have no way of knowing.


I have not looked at analog in quite some time. Analog signals have always been bad here, so I don't know if the truck affects it. If the truck is idling tomorrow I will test it out. Better scan analog tonight to get a good baseline.


It does not seem to better/worse when it first starts. The interference is present even when he gets home for the day. To be truly scientific about it the interference MIGHT be less when he gets home but he doesn't leave it idling for 20 min then. I see the 'digital static' then I hear the truck, he parks, shuts off the engine and interference goes away. Less than 1 min.


The truck idles rough but doesn't sound to be missing at all. It seems louder in the morning, but that may just be my perception. I doubt this guy is a Tuner or a Hot Rod person. This truck is blue, faded blue, rusty and full of holes. I am more inclined to think this is connected to poor maintenance than special parts.


I'll test the analog signals tomorrow when he leaves. If I get the chance I'll try to flag him down and offer my help to do a tuneup, but I'm not paying for wires and plugs for this guy.


Thanks for the idea too. I think I may call The Car Guys this week with this one. I love their show but being mechanically inclined myself I never really had a reason to call before. I doubt that they would give me more than what I already have but it'd still be fun to have those two guys scratching their thinning scalps over this one.


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nwiser* /forum/post/15897446
> 
> 
> As far as VHF elements on antennas go, I've seen antennas with them sticking straight out from the main boom (90 degrees), and then others like the one I have, have them sticking out at an angle (maybe 35-45 degrees).
> 
> 
> Why the difference with various manufacturers and what advantages, if any, does one orientation provide over the other?



it changes the pattern of reception for the antenna, it would change the distance and angle of good reception


----------



## kedirekin

From hdtvprimer.com:


> Quote:
> TV LPDAs come in two types: straight and Vee. The Vee type (LPVA) has a very slightly higher gain for channels 7-13. But this author often favors the straight type since it has nulls 90° to each side that can be used to cancel out interference.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr Touchtone* /forum/post/15893468
> 
> 
> $50 says you're wrong........if the truck is radiating within that channel bandpass, any antenna will pick it up! If a VHF antenna would have more gain, it would only ADD to the problem, not help it....
> 
> 
> You can ONLY eliminate noise at the source...you can TRY to cover it up at the other end...but you can never eliminate it there (this from a former TVI/RFI tech for a public utility....been there, know how to fight it)



I'll take your $50.


My UHF only antenna (Radio Shack U-100) gets a snowy analog channel 6 that has white dots when the furnace runs and when a light is switched on or off.


My all channel antenna (Winegard HD7015) does not have any white dots from electrical interference on channel 6.


The two antennas are 5' apart on my roof.


The part that you may be missing is that a proper VHF antenna has directivity that will get a stronger signal from the TV station while simultaneously receiving less ignition noise from another direction. Your statement would be correct only if both the DB-4 and the hypothetical VHF only antenna were perfectly omnidirectional on the troublesome VHF channel.


That said; your experience with power line interference is not wrong. It's just that power line interference is usually radiated along the power lines for several blocks. Therefore, the noise arrives at the TV antenna from multiple directions and is much harder to eliminate by the use of directional antennas. The truck interference is more like a point source of noise.


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tobias ziegler* /forum/post/15894002
> 
> 
> you know....snowballs are free....and they melt after sitting in a hot tailpipe...just watch them footyprints



rofl


----------



## ctdish

A preamp will likely cause more harm that good. Try adjusting the pointing angle of the antenna and maybe even moving its location inside the attic.

John


----------



## mcfoo

For goodness sake, shoot the damn truck...


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Green-Elf* /forum/post/15893770
> 
> 
> The true answer is fine AND trouble, but not the way you are thinking.



If your neighbor's truck is significantly below your attic you may be able to tilt your antenna up slightly. If you're lucky, you could loose a couple of db of DTV signal but much more of the interference.


If that doesn't work, can you build a second DB-4 and stack it to make the beam shoot over his truck?


----------



## Green-Elf

Ok, interesting morning...


Truck idled for 20+ min this morning despite being about 50 degrees already...


As I said lat night analog is bad and the truck didn't seem to affect it at all. I checked analog signals on 6,7,9 and 12. In my tests last night I didn't get any of the analog UHF channels well enough to be able to see a quality difference.


I kept an eye out of my house for him to come back out. When he did, I stopped him and explained that I was getting some interference with my TV and that I believed it to be his truck. I then offered to help him give his truck a tune-up and that maybe new wires, rotor and distributor could help reduce the interference I was seeing.


He told me to **** off.


I think I'm back to snowballs and potatoes now.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/15900016
> 
> 
> …power line interference is usually radiated along the power lines for several blocks. Therefore, the noise arrives at the TV antenna from multiple directions and is much harder to eliminate by the use of directional antennas.



How much interference would I get from a 138KV transmission line, approx. 100 yards North of my location, running West to East (264° - 84° Magnetic (True = -11°)).


I also have a higher capacity line (I'll try to get the voltage) running 163° South out of the Sub-Station, then making a right turn to follow I-81 for about a ¼ mile. The Sub-Station is about ½ mile at 304°. There is also a LNG power plant about a ¼ mile North of the Sub-Station.


Do you have any suggestions, beyond a quality installation, to help minimize the interference?

*NOTE:* Altoona is at 321.5°, Harrisburg is at 52°, York/Lancaster is at 77.5°, Baltimore at 122.6°, and D.C. at 152°.


----------



## Brian.Leveille

Hi All,


I searched about a bit and I don't know if this question should be posed either here or in the AVS Antenna thread. Anyway, here goes:


I'm wondering what my best antenna/pre-amp setup would be for my situation.


- I'm pretty close to the towers.

- My house sits on the side of a hill. This hill blocks most of the directions I need to point to hit the main group of towers from which I want to pull my stations.

- I'm completely surrounded by large trees and homes.

- I had a smaller UHF only antenna on my roof, but recently lost almost all reception because of an ice storm. It's been too cold for me to get back up on the roof to fix the damage.

- Plus, I know pretty much for sure that I did little to no weather-proofing of my connections, so I'm sure I'll have to re-do a lot of stuff.

- I have about a 100 ft cable run from the antenna to the TV.


Whenever I go to antennaweb.org or tvfool.com, they show that most of my local stations are close enough to only require a green indoor antenna. However, based on my tree and hill/building problems, I think these aren't true. (I've attached the tvfool map as a reference)


What would everyone recommend I get for an antenna to receive high VHF and UHF? Would I also need a pre-amp (like a CM7777??) to boost signals that too weak because of the hill/trees and cable length??


Thanks for any help you can provide,


-BL


----------



## rabbit73

Please also show us what _post transition_ looks like for your exact address.

We could do it by zip, but since you have a hill exact address is better. By coordinates is the most accurate, usually.


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/15896760
> 
> 
> Well guys, there's only one solution left to us.
> 
> 
> We have to drop the "This Old House" line of thought...
> 
> 
> and switch to "Car Talk".
> 
> 
> Clique? Claque? Are you out there, guys?



Second the motion!!! LOL!!!


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Green-Elf* /forum/post/15901060
> 
> 
> 
> He told me to **** off.
> 
> 
> I think I'm back to snowballs and potatoes now.



Bananas, man, bananas!!!.....did you not watch "Beverly Hills Cop"???







They at least give him time to drive off...but I agree with another poster....time to shoot the truck!


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/15902822
> 
> 
> How much interference would I get from a 138KV transmission line, approx. 100 yards North of my location, running West to East (264° - 84° Magnetic (True = -11°)).
> 
> 
> I also have a higher capacity line (I'll try to get the voltage) running 163° South out of the Sub-Station, then making a right turn to follow I-81 for about a ¼ mile. The Sub-Station is about ½ mile at 304°. There is also a LNG power plant about a ¼ mile North of the Sub-Station.
> 
> 
> Do you have any suggestions, beyond a quality installation, to help minimize the interference?
> 
> *NOTE:* Altoona is at 321.5°, Harrisburg is at 52°, York/Lancaster is at 77.5°, Baltimore at 122.6°, and D.C. at 152°.



HV lines like 138KV and above rarely have any arc noise issues...if they do, it doesnt last for long as the arc BURNS and either welds the connection shut (and stops the arc and noise) or blows it open thus requiring a fix (been there, done it)....HV lines USUALLY have only corona noise heard mainly on the lower part of the AM broadcast band...and is only present only as you drive under it.....the corona field is not that strong nor does it radiate as far as an arc does...you should be fine...IF you do have any noise, likely its from distribution lines closer to you OR IF it IS from the HV line, you need to call the company that owns it and have them resolve it quickly.....It will be of benefit to them as well as to you that it is!!! (It could damage equipment and they could get fined by the FCC for the noise if anyone, hint hint







, complains).


----------



## Brian.Leveille

Well, it's funny. I live in Providence, RI and the local PVD stations have transitioned, but the Boston stations which I can receive pretty well, have not yet transitioned. So I'm sorta 1/2 transitioned. ;-)


I've attached another map from antennaweb. In this map, N. Main Street runs along the bottom of the hill. Summit street runs along the top of the hill (ironically enough). The stations I want to reliably pull in are along the 'A' direction along the side of the hill and in the 'C' and 'D' directions, which are directly into the side of the hill.

Attachment 134618 


Anyway, my coordinates are:


Latitude

41.851666 °

N 41 ° 51' 6.0"

41 ° 51.1000' (degree m.mmmm)

Longitude

-71.400200 °

W 71 ° 24' 0.7"

-71 ° 24.0120' (degree m.mmmm)



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/15904059
> 
> 
> Please also show us what _post transition_ looks like for your exact address.
> 
> We could do it by zip, but since you have a hill exact address is better. By coordinates is the most accurate, usually.


----------



## ctdish

Your stations are too strong for a preamp. Overload will do more harm than good. Which stations were giving you trouble? With the blockage multipath could be a problem. The solution is a moderate gain antenna to reject the other paths. If you want to get stations from almost 90 Deg. apart you will need a rotator. You also have several VHF stations so if these were giving you trouble a high VHF antenna might also be needed.

John


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr Touchtone* /forum/post/15904277
> 
> 
> HV lines like 138KV and above rarely have any arc noise issues...



Sometimes true. When HV lines make noise it's caused by induction from the HV line into the wires or metal on the support structure. Any loose hardware on the pole or tower is usually what causes the line noise.


It's true that the FCC will cite a power company for interference if they ignore your requests. Yet, you may not get help to receive stations unless you are in their grade B contour.


I know about situations where a blow to a pole from a sledge hammer caused interference to stop. I've seen a street light go out when a pole was hit hard. Another time the interference stopped when a loose guy wire was cut. This guy was crazy, but effective.


Do you know about the trick to use your AM car radio to find line noise?


----------



## GSB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr Touchtone* /forum/post/15895900
> 
> 
> There IS shielded balanced line (or you can make it out of coax...two parallel runs of coax with the shields tied together and use the center conductors as the "balanced" line works)...and it CAN go next to metal, etc....ahhhhh, what a relief!



This is a good idea, but the impedance of two parallel runs of coax used as a balanced line, is twice the impedance of a single run, so if you use 75ohm coax, you'll end up with a 150ohm balanced line, and that would be rather lossy in a 300ohm antenna system.


----------



## Konrad2

Green-Elf writes:

> He told me to **** off.


Dr Touchtone writes:

> IF it IS from the HV line, you need to call the company that

> owns it and have them resolve it quickly.....It will be of

> benefit to them as well as to you that it is!!! (It could

> damage equipment and they could get fined by the FCC for the

> noise


How does the FCC feel about old trucks?


Green-Elf, are trucks required to pass an emissions test in

your area? The DMV might be interested in this fine truck.


He is probably idling it so long to keep the engine from

stalling when cold. A properly maintained engine doesn't

require this. Prolonged idling is actually hard on engines.


A more directional antenna will be helpful regardless of

what you do about the truck. I only suggested the two

antenna trick as a last resort, you shouldn't need to

do that when the truck obviously needs a tuneup. You can

do the two antenna trick in the vertical axis as well as the

horizontal axis. And as Tower Guy suggested, tilting the

antenna up slightly may help, and will also help avoid dynamic

multipath from passing vehicles. UVSJ diplexors are cheap and

might help.


----------



## systems2000

We are the first distribution point (six houses - two transformers) off this transmission line and it is supported by wooden poles. The other transmission line is constructed of a heavier wood support structure.


I've got a battery powered AM/FM/Cassette radio that I can use.







What's the best way to do this?


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/15906392
> 
> 
> We are the first distribution point (six houses - two transformers) off this transmission line and it is supported by wooden poles. The other transmission line is constructed of a heavier wood support structure.
> 
> 
> I've got a battery powered AM/FM/Cassette radio that I can use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's the best way to do this?




The portable AM radio has a bar antenna..it is highly bi-directive at 90degress to the plane of the bar and has deep nulls off the ends of the bar...(the bar runs across the top of the radio going from side to side; hence the longest side of the radio)...you can usually figure out the max/nulls by tuning to a local station and rotating the radio and noting the nulls and max reception in corelation to the actual direction of the stations xmtr site.

Then use it to peak or NULL the noise and use that to take points up and down the road....trianglization will give you the main source of the noise....sometimes you can see a pole and NULL toward it and the noise goes away tellling you that pole is noise source (loose hardware; staples energized to HV and touching ground wire, etc)....When the crews fix the problems, the noise will be gone on that pole no matter which way the radio is pointed...nulling helps as you get closer to the noise source...Also driving around at night and looking for glowing spots on poles will show arcs (especially on dry cool nights when it will arc the most) Rain, wet humid days will kill the arc....


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/15906392
> 
> 
> I've got a battery powered AM/FM/Cassette radio that I can use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's the best way to do this?



Do this during the day when there is no skip. Find an unused frequency near the bottom of the AM band. 540-640 works best. Walk around while listening for a loud buzz. The louder the buzz, the closer you will be to the source. Sometimes you can be fooled by a secondary peak a half wavelength (~900') from the main source, so several trips along the power line are prudent.


----------



## Brian.Leveille

Thanks ctdish. Can you, or anyone else for that matter, make any recommendations for an antenna that would meet my needs??


TIA,


-BL



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/15905102
> 
> 
> Your stations are too strong for a preamp. Overload will do more harm than good. Which stations were giving you trouble? With the blockage multipath could be a problem. The solution is a moderate gain antenna to reject the other paths. If you want to get stations from almost 90 Deg. apart you will need a rotator. You also have several VHF stations so if these were giving you trouble a high VHF antenna might also be needed.
> 
> John


----------



## systems2000

This morning, I grabbed both of my portable radios, put in a fresh set of six "C" batteries, set the frequency around the mid 600's, then cranked up the treble and volume. I proceeded to walk all through my yard. Very, very quiet.







I then walked through my house doing the same. WOW!










I found one of my ionic pro's was radiating a hugh amout of interference. There must be something wrong with it, because the other one was very quiet. There is a lot of interference around the entertainment center.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> I found one of my ionic pro's was radiating a hugh amout of interference. There must be something wrong with it, because the other one was very quiet. There is a lot of interference around the entertainment center.



Do you mean that the interference was *only* coming from the ionic pro that was acting up or do you mean that there was *also* interfrerence coming from the entertainment center?


----------



## ctdish

One of the WINEGARD HD-769 Series would probably be a good choice. You can see pictures here http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm 

The larger ones will provide slightly more signal but more importantly will reduce the amount of multipath. The down side is cost, size and the the fact that the antenna will need to aimed more precisely. If you desire stations that are 90 deg apart none will work well without turning in the desired direction.

John


----------



## PCTools

I would feel like Columbo doing this.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/15908198
> 
> 
> Do this during the day when there is no skip. Find an unused frequency near the bottom of the AM band. 540-640 works best. Walk around while listening for a loud buzz. The louder the buzz, the closer you will be to the source. Sometimes you can be fooled by a secondary peak a half wavelength (~900') from the main source, so several trips along the power line are prudent.


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/15909358
> 
> 
> This morning, I grabbed both of my portable radios, put in a fresh set of six "C" batteries, set the frequency around the mid 600's, then cranked up the treble and volume. I proceeded to walk all through my yard. Very, very quiet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I then walked through my house doing the same. WOW!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I found one of my ionic pro's was radiating a hugh amout of interference. There must be something wrong with it, because the other one was very quiet. There is a lot of interference around the entertainment center.



those things can make RF interference if broken, poorly made or dirty.


----------



## systems2000

*also.*


----------



## rabbit73

Could that interference be from switchmode power supplies (SMPS)? Some "switchers" with poor filtering can radiate a lot of interference.


----------



## rabbit73

Brian post transition


----------



## systems2000

Most of the interference seems to be coming from the Memorex MVD4541 DVD player / Hi-Fi VCR, with NTSC tuner. You have to be in the room and close for it to register.


----------



## andytiedye

We have a fluorescent torchiere lamp that generates massive RFI all the way down to the 40 meter ham band. We don't use it anymore.


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/15910720
> 
> 
> Could that interference be from switchmode power supplies (SMPS)? Some "switchers" with poor filtering can radiate a lot of interference.



True! Switchers use squarewave at 120Khz or higher...and that throws harmonics WAY into the HF and even VHF region!! A lot of modern switchers are RF quiet but some stuff is terrible....as my former band director (who was a ham also) would say, sounds like a 400Hz dynamotor generator with no filtering!! EEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!! (it hurts to think about it


----------



## Green-Elf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/15906335
> 
> 
> I only suggested the two
> 
> antenna trick as a last resort, you shouldn't need to
> 
> do that when the truck obviously needs a tuneup. You can
> 
> do the two antenna trick in the vertical axis as well as the
> 
> horizontal axis.



I think I'm going to try out adding another antenna below the original one. It's easy enough to do and cheap too. It's also less likely to get me in trouble than anything that bananas, potatoes or snowballs would.


I contacted the local FCC office about the truck and their answer was that there was nothing that they could do about it unless it started affecting a larger area. Nice FCC. Thanks alot.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> This is a good idea, but the impedance of two parallel runs of coax used as a balanced line, is twice the impedance of a single run, so if you use 75ohm coax, you'll end up with a 150ohm balanced line, and that would be rather lossy in a 300ohm antenna system.



The impedance of parallel balanced lines is determined by the spacing distance and gauge of wire used.
http://www.qsl.net/co8tw/openline.htm 

But I havent seen anthing on using coax for home brewing parallel transmission lines.


----------



## systems2000

The FCC is useless when it comes to the individual. I've complained about issues before and they told me there was nothing that they could do (didn't even know about the reg/law). Sheesh, they were the one who wrote the regs and what one was supposed to do to remedy the situation.


----------



## Dr Touchtone

From the FCC Daily Digest:


WE2XXI ADAPTRUM, INC. 0460-EX-PL-2008

New experimental to operate in 174 - 216 MHz, 470 - 608 MHz and 614 - 698 MHz for testing of white space devices.

Mobile: Within State of CA


--------------------------------

Funny, I thought WSDs were limited to UHF only....why are they getting experimental in the VHF range?? There goes any DXng of DTV as we know it.


----------



## dsaar

I'm trying to help my family get set up for the transition. They're about 60 miles outside of Boston, which is the primary broadcast location. I'm attaching plots for post-transition digital and FM reception. My question is which preamp to use? There's only one channel that even starts to come into the green. If I go with the high gain of a Winegard AP-8275, am I safe from overloading anything? The antenna is roof mounted on a 2-story house. I'm not sure exactly what it is though. It's a VHF/UHF in the style like an HD7015, but would have been something purchased from RS or Sears 15-20 years ago. (It's about an hour away, so I haven't had a chance to just drop by, climb up on the roof and check it out closer). There will be about 50 ft. of quad shield cable before being split to two TVs. The goal is to try to get everything on the chart down to WBZ, but I'm not sure if that is realistic.


I'd appreciate any advice on the preamp, or even changing the antenna.


thanks,


-Dave


----------



## nwiser

One more question I had about VHF/UHF directional antennas: For the most part, when I see the large directional UHF/VHF antennas, including on my own, the reflectors are at an angle above and below the UHF elements. However I've seen one or two where the reflectors are off at an angle above and below the VHF elements (meaning they're backwards, in the opposite direction they're normally pointing).


Is that a common configuration or do the people who have their antennas like that have them set up wrong? Would the reflectors do anything for VHF reception?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> However I've seen one or two where the reflectors are off at an angle above and below the VHF elements (meaning they're backwards, in the opposite direction they're normally pointing).



Yeah, I think Ive seen that in some of the Aussie antennas. But then again, their toilets rotate backwards when you flush em too, heh.


Seriously, they probably work fine. I havent modeled any, but its just another way for the signal to bounce off of the reflector towards the driven element. Careful spacing probably produces good results.


----------



## 300ohm

Alright ! Channel 17.2 in Philly has switched over to the THIS network. Lots of older movies. Listings here : http://www.thistvnetwork.net/


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Green-Elf* /forum/post/15916467
> 
> 
> I think I'm going to try out adding another antenna below the original one. It's easy enough to do and cheap too. It's also less likely to get me in trouble than anything that bananas, potatoes or snowballs would.
> 
> 
> I contacted the local FCC office about the truck and their answer was that there was nothing that they could do about it unless it started affecting a larger area. Nice FCC. Thanks alot.



Yeah, it's probably a California thing....we can call the SMOG Police....

presuming we don't care about starting a feud with a neighbor....


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15924690
> 
> 
> Yeah, I think Ive seen that in some of the Aussie antennas. But then again, their toilets rotate backwards when you flush em too, heh.
> 
> 
> Seriously, they probably work fine. I havent modeled any, but its just another way for the signal to bounce off of the reflector towards the driven element. Careful spacing probably produces good results.



Which Aussie antennas???


You mean like the UK's Triax FM-8:
http://www.dxradio.co.uk/pix.php 

or Poland's Dipole A2692:
http://www.dipolnet.com/uhf-vhf_tv_a...1-69_A2692.htm 


The driven element has two reflector elements in a "Triad" arrangement,

which provides unexpectedly good F/B Ratio.


W-G PR/HD4400 and PR/HD8800 "reflectors" operate on similar principal,

except another reflector element is directly behind each driven element:
http://www.winegarddirect.com/pdf/spec_PR4400.pdf 


I think a lot of these design variations were invented 30+ years ago in order

to look "different" enough to avoid paying someone else costly patent royalities.

Which hopefully have all expired by now.....


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15926359
> 
> 
> Yeah, it's probably a California thing....we can call the SMOG Police....
> 
> presuming we don't care about starting a feud with a neighbor....



Yeah know maybe expanding foam into the tailpipe may work...the heat will cause it to expand more so and solidify......EEEHHHHH the fun of it all...


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/15926446
> 
> 
> The driven element has two reflector elements in a "Triad" arrangement,
> 
> which provides unexpectedly good F/B Ratio.



The "trigon" reflector dates back to 1976 and NBS Technical Note #688.

http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/general/pdf/451.pdf 


Quite a few amateur radio antennas were manufactured with the trigon reflector. I used to have one of these back in the late 80's:

http://support2.overkalix.se/~sm2yer...craft_2m18.pdf 


However, it was found that they didn't really work any better than a single reflector, and fell out of favor.


Ron


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Which Aussie antennas???
> 
> 
> You mean like the UK's Triax FM-8:



Yeah, like those, except with even more reflectors so that it looks like a backwards corner reflector. I dont have a link right now.



It kind of puzzles me in that design in that they dont typically put a reflector rod directly behind the element also.


----------



## jns82

As advised on this forum, I replaced my mid-range antenna with a yagi 1713 about 2 ft above an xg91, hooked into a cm7777, on a rotator, on the roof. I have 75 ohm cable from antennas to preamp and to the house. I am about 50-70 miles from transmitters, and the digital strength meter on my television suggests my UHF has improved about 20-30%, i.e. from 30 to 55 on a couple UHF channels. My VHF is a little concerning as channels 9 and 12 are currently broadcasting UHF (47 and 14, respectively), but will switch back to VHF (9,12) post-transition. It does not appear that my 9 and 12 analog reception is improved with the 1713 as compared to my previous mid-range. Unfortunately, I have no digital VHF to test pre-transition.


Thus, any more boost in the UHF is always appreciated as I have a couple of those 20-30% strength that fall out, and my VHF might still need some work. Does anyone have any suggestions to tweak this setup, or something I may be overlooking? I appreciate any advice, the advice I've recieved so far has put me in far better shape than before.


----------



## asg1290




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Brian.Leveille* /forum/post/15903949
> 
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> 
> I searched about a bit and I don't know if this question should be posed either here or in the AVS Antenna thread. Anyway, here goes:
> 
> 
> I'm wondering what my best antenna/pre-amp setup would be for my situation.
> 
> 
> - I'm pretty close to the towers.
> 
> - My house sits on the side of a hill. This hill blocks most of the directions I need to point to hit the main group of towers from which I want to pull my stations.
> 
> - I'm completely surrounded by large trees and homes.
> 
> - I had a smaller UHF only antenna on my roof, but recently lost almost all reception because of an ice storm. It's been too cold for me to get back up on the roof to fix the damage.
> 
> - Plus, I know pretty much for sure that I did little to no weather-proofing of my connections, so I'm sure I'll have to re-do a lot of stuff.
> 
> - I have about a 100 ft cable run from the antenna to the TV.
> 
> 
> Whenever I go to antennaweb.org or tvfool.com, they show that most of my local stations are close enough to only require a green indoor antenna. However, based on my tree and hill/building problems, I think these aren't true. (I've attached the tvfool map as a reference)
> 
> 
> What would everyone recommend I get for an antenna to receive high VHF and UHF? Would I also need a pre-amp (like a CM7777??) to boost signals that too weak because of the hill/trees and cable length??
> 
> 
> Thanks for any help you can provide,
> 
> 
> -BL



I too am in a similar situation except my location doesn't have many stations. My TV Fool chart looks pretty dire and I'm not sure I'll ever be able to receive Digital OTA at my home anytime soon. I'm wondering if it would even be worth the time to find out. Any advice would be appreciated


Attached is my post transition digital tvfool chart.


----------



## cpcat

Pre-filter your high band antenna by running its output through the hi port of a hi/lo separator before insertion into the vhf input on the 7777.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HLSJ


----------



## willscary

jns82,


Before installing the 7777, did you:


Open the case and set the VHF/UHF input to "seperate"?


While the case was open, did you check to make wure that the FM Trap was set to "In"?


It is especially important that you have set the VHF/UHF switch to seperate. If it is on "combined", you will not get decent reception on one of the bands, depending on how you attached you coax from the antennas.


Also, others will disagree, but if you can, I suggest you make sure that the YA-1713 is at least 5' away from the bottom of the 91XG's rear screen. This should eliminate any chance of interference between the two antennas. While others will say that 3' is enough, the fact is that the bandwidth of VHF-hi is much longer than this. While your UHF stations may not see interference at this distance apart, your VHF-high stations will most likely be affected.


Just my opinion.


Bill


----------



## jns82

Bill and cpcat,

Yes, I set the VHF/UHF to separate (as an afterthought, I read the directions and saw this right before I got off the roof), and the FM trap is in. Although I might be able to separate a little further, 5ft is probably not likely with the mast and rotator setup I have. I'll maximize the distance and try the filter on the high-band pass- simple enough-could the filter really make a difference?


thanks,

jns82


----------



## cpcat

Yes. It does for me.


48 inches metal-to-metal is fine for separation for high band. 36 is probably ok too in most situations, especially for the higher hi band channels. 24 inches is pushing it a little. If you can, just experiment and see after your channels turn on.


----------



## holl_ands

Latest FCC database reportedly has lots of (new) errors which were reflected in
www.tvfool.com reports. TVFool reverted to older, more believable database.


Rerun tvfool if you ran it within the past couple days.


----------



## YUL-STL

dsaar:


The AP 8275 will not overload at you location, so you'll be OK using it. The CM 7777 has 0.8 dB lower NF than the AP 8275 on UHF; so it may be better on those low signal levels.


As for getting down to WBZ, signal levels with negative Noise Margins are very difficult to get. So I wouldn't bank of getting a steady and drop-out free picture.


Last, your signals come in from different locations so you'll need to align your antenna towards the stations you'll want to receive. A rotor can do the job.


YUL-STL


----------



## jamjar

DSAAR


I have a similar situation to the one you are trying to set up.


I am 63+ miles from the stations I want to receive and am currently receiving a station with a Noise Margin of -15.3 (KUSA-DT). I seem to have a more severe shadowing issue than you have.


I am using a Winegard HD9095P UHF antenna with about 14.5 dB gain on real channel 16 (9.x) running into a Winegard AP8275 Pre-Amp. I also have an old Winegard VHF antenna with similar? gain numbers. I actually believe that the 8275 is overloading on channel 35 (4.1) that is now at full post transition strength and I may go to a lesser Pre-Amp when the full transition occurs.


With your VHF/UHF station mix, you will need a combination antenna.


I am presently receiving KUSA-DT with good signal strength and the only time I see a dropout is when a bird lands on the antenna or the wind blows 20 - 30 MPH and causes the antenna to move around.


I'm attaching my TV Fool Radar plot for the present time as well as my shadowing profile and your shadowing profile for WBZ.


Good luck

John


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I have been told that my situation is difficult and was directed to this Website.



Yeah, youre pretty much screwed to get many channels. -8 NM and below channels are very hard to get consistantly.


After transistion, channels 7, 42 at 73 degrees and 10 at 216 degrees are what you can expect. I would get a medium gain VHF/UHF combo antenna and point it at 73 degrees and hope to get 10 at 216 degrees on the backside. If that doesnt suit, reverse the direction and try 7 and 42 on the backside. If you get too high of a gain antenna, backside performance will be less.


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jns82* /forum/post/15929815
> 
> 
> I replaced my mid-range antenna with a yagi 1713 about 2 ft above an xg91...



The XG-91 should be above the YA-1713. Like separation, even seemingly minor details like this can have a big impact on signal strengths.


----------



## alphanguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jns82* /forum/post/15929815
> 
> 
> As advised on this forum, I replaced my mid-range antenna with a yagi 1713 about 2 ft above an xg91, hooked into a cm7777, on a rotator, on the roof. I have 75 ohm cable from antennas to preamp and to the house. I am about 50-70 miles from transmitters, and the digital strength meter on my television suggests my UHF has improved about 20-30%, i.e. from 30 to 55 on a couple UHF channels. My VHF is a little concerning as channels 9 and 12 are currently broadcasting UHF (47 and 14, respectively), but will switch back to VHF (9,12) post-transition. It does not appear that my 9 and 12 analog reception is improved with the 1713 as compared to my previous mid-range. Unfortunately, I have no digital VHF to test pre-transition.
> 
> 
> Thus, any more boost in the UHF is always appreciated as I have a couple of those 20-30% strength that fall out, and my VHF might still need some work. Does anyone have any suggestions to tweak this setup, or something I may be overlooking? I appreciate any advice, the advice I've recieved so far has put me in far better shape than before.



If your UHF is still not as strong as you like, contact antennas direct and procure a fourth boom section from them for the XG-91 (You'll need an additional middle boom section) and put it on, you'll have to adjust the support bracket to balance the antenna, but it helped ALOT in my situation, I'm now dropout free.


----------



## Davird_Jr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/15938891
> 
> 
> The XG-91 should be above the YA-1713. Like separation, even seemingly minor details like this can have a big impact on signal strengths.



Does this affect the UHF or the VHF signal? I have an XG91 about 3 ft below a Winegard HD8200 and have lost about 20 % SS on UHF since putting up the Winegard. VHF close to 100 % from 50 miles in the mountains & tough terrain.


----------



## Digital Rules

3' is a bit too close. 3-1/2' is the minimum recommended separation. You can mount either one on top, but the 91-XG is so light, it usually works best at the top. Sometimes those few extra feet help with the more fickle UHF frequencies. At 3-1/2', I haven't noticed any degredation in UHF performance with my system.


Are you trapping you FM? You have 2 FM stations within 10 miles. WAMC-90.3 @ 10 kw may be problematic, even with the trap engaged.


----------



## willscary

I always hear that 3' or 3-1/2' is enough seperation. the fact is that you should always strive to keep your antenna distance at least one wavelength apart. In the case of a VHF-hi antenna and a UHF antenna, this is about 5'-4" for channel 7. To be safe, I would strive for 6' or even a touch more. I mounted mine nearly 7' apart (from the bottom of the 91XG rear screen to the top of the psp.1922 reflector). I have no interference problems.


If you are using an older "all channel" 2-69 antenna, it may need to be a much greater distance, as that antenna will pull in channel 2, with its HUGE wavelengths. An FM antenna also needs more room.


On the other hand, you can mount UHF antennas as close as about 3' apart with no problems.


Bill


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/15940699
> 
> 
> 3' is a bit too close. 3-1/2' is the minimum recommended separation. You can mount either one on top, but the 91-XG is so light, it usually works best at the top. Sometimes those few extra feet help with the more fickle UHF frequencies. At 3-1/2', I haven't noticed any degredation in UHF performance with my system.
> 
> 
> Are you trapping you FM? You have 2 FM stations within 10 miles. WAMC-90.3 @ 10 kw may be problematic, even with the trap engaged.



Speaking from experience, 36 inches separation b/w nearest metallic elements won't likely present a problem with uhf or hi vhf.


For some, adding separation isn't much of a problem. In that case, use rule-of-thumb type separation just to be safe: 36, 48, 60 for uhf, hi vhf, and lo vhf respectively.


For others, i.e. using a rotator without a bearing or if there is limited mast space, the installation may require narrower spacing. In most cases, it's ok to cheat a little and still not suffer noticeably with performance.


----------



## serndipity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15924690
> 
> 
> Yeah, I think Ive seen that in some of the Aussie antennas. But then again, their toilets rotate backwards when you flush em too, heh.



When viewed from the right perspective, from down under, they flush clockwise.....just like here.


----------



## Sailn




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Davird_Jr* /forum/post/15940355
> 
> 
> Does this affect the UHF or the VHF signal? I have an XG91 about 3 ft below a Winegard HD8200 and have lost about 20 % SS on UHF since putting up the Winegard. VHF close to 100 % from 50 miles in the mountains & tough terrain.




Yes the XG91 should be above the hd8200. For a pretty good explaination of what is going on, consult http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/stacking/stacking2.htm 

or http://www.tvantenna.com/support/tut...combining.html 



In reality, it all ends up being typical rf black magic. Eith have a field strength meter or someone inside the house tuning in stations to detrmine the best set up. It is much easier if there are no coexisting or adjacent channels.


----------



## GSB




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *serndipity* /forum/post/15943925
> 
> 
> When viewed from the right perspective, from down under, they flush clockwise.....just like here.



HAHA! Good one!


----------



## systems2000

Here are pictures of my "Dry Bearing" setup for my antenna tower.










I'll be fine tuning my setup as the Summer progresses.


----------



## systems2000

I made the antenna move to the rotor yesterday.


----------



## Davird_Jr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/15940699
> 
> 
> 3' is a bit too close. 3-1/2' is the minimum recommended separation. You can mount either one on top, but the 91-XG is so light, it usually works best at the top. Sometimes those few extra feet help with the more fickle UHF frequencies. At 3-1/2', I haven't noticed any degredation in UHF performance with my system.
> 
> 
> Are you trapping you FM? You have 2 FM stations within 10 miles. WAMC-90.3 @ 10 kw may be problematic, even with the trap engaged.



First thanks for all the replies.


I'm not sure if I'm trapping FM, but I don't think so. If I do trap, will that affect my FM reception. I use the same antenna setup for FM reception.



> Quote:
> If you are using an older "all channel" 2-69 antenna, it may need to be a much greater distance, as that antenna will pull in channel 2, with its HUGE wavelengths. An FM antenna also needs more room.



My new HD8200 does pull in an almost watchable analog signal from Utica, NY which is about 80 - 90 miles west of me. My mast is 10 feet on a tripod on my roof. The 8200 is on top and the 91 about 3 ft below it. I could add a 5 ft section of mast to the top and put the 91 up there. I hate to lower the antennas at all, but I am a bit nervous about going too high because we do see 60 MPH winds around here at times.



> Quote:
> In reality, it all ends up being typical rf black magic. Eith have a field strength meter or someone inside the house tuning in stations to detrmine the best set up. It is much easier if there are no coexisting or adjacent channels.



I usually have my wife watch the SS meter on the TV and we talk with 2 way radios to figure aiming. At my location I get no UHF SS when aimed at the antenna farm, but get 60 - 70 % aimed at the moutain behind my house about 160 degrees (almost opposite) direction. The problem is that I can't keep the signal locked except under optimal conditons. Sunny, no wind. Am hoping to increase the SS just a bit. Soemtimes the dropouts just make the channels unwatcheable. With the Winegard VHF is rock solid with 90 + SS. One of the UHF channels is going back to VHF 6 after June 12 so I will only have 3 stations on UHF after that with 3 on VHF (6, 7 & 12)


----------



## systems2000

FM Traps are meant to reduce FM signals by large margins. I use a seperate FM antenna for my stereo.


I did some calculations and found that as long as your local DMA isn't using VHF-Lo for DTV or LPA's, your spacing can be as close as 32.16". This is also the minimum spacing between the bottom of the lowest antenna elements and your roofline/tower.


Higher and wider is alwyas better, unless you are ganging.


----------



## holl_ands

*UTube 4-Bay Bowtie vs CM-4221, mclapp's M-4* and one more (unknown) 4-Bay.


Since I was curious re antenna performance, in the *DIY UHF Antenna thread*, I posted

a link to 4nec2 simulation studies I conducted on the UTube antenna (which has NO Reflector)

and, for comparison, three additional 4-Bay Antennas, presuming NO Reflector:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=15947660 

Perhaps some of you would like to join the discussion.....


NEC predicted the UTube 4-Bay to have low Raw Gain on the lower channels and very poor

SWR throughout the rest of the New UHF band. And Hi-VHF SWR was sky-high....

Checkout mclapp's M-4 (or M-8) instead.....


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/15947276
> 
> 
> I did some calculations and found that as long as your local DMA isn't using VHF-Lo for DTV or LPA's, your spacing can be as close as 32.16". This is also the minimum spacing between the bottom of the lowest antenna elements and your roofline/tower.



Thank you. You answered a question I was about to ask. I keep reading about spacing antennas based on the wavelengths of the channels that the antennas are designed to receive, but it seemed to me that you should only have to space them based on the channels that you intend to receive.


----------



## systems2000

That's vertical spacing, not horizontal. I'd double that for horizontal.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Davird_Jr* /forum/post/15947016
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if I'm trapping FM, but I don't think so. If I do trap, will that affect my FM reception. I use the same antenna setup for FM reception.



Too much FM gain can cause issues on weaker TV stations. Go to www.fmfool.com and enter your exact address or coordinates. This will give a better idea if it is a possible cause of your lowered UHF readings.


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/15946674
> 
> 
> Here are pictures of my "Dry Bearing" setup for my antenna tower.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be fine tuning my setup as the Summer progresses.



Looks ok.Couple comments,though.


Did you put any lube on the mast where it goes thru the apex pipe collar?As time goes on it will corrode and cause problems.Looks to be a fairly snug fit.


If I'm seeing white coax,that's a no-no.Sun will eat it up in a year,or two.


And so,how's the performance?


----------



## systems2000

No lube, since it's a temporary setup, until I get the longer pipe.


Yes, it's white and I'll be replacing it when the longer pipe gets installed (it's at length now).


Works great! The winds today have the whole tower swaying a bit and the antenna is causing some additional motion on the pipe. I think it would be a little more stable, if I move the rotor to the bottom of the mounting pipe, and get some more weight and bracing on the center pipe.


There's a small amount of play between pipes. if you go to the hardware store and take a small stub of 1" galv and a small stub of 1½" (or did I use 1¼"), slide the 1" inside the other, you'll see what I mean.


I'm keeping an eye out for some sort of neoprene material to use as a floating seal on the topside.


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/15940699
> 
> 
> 3' is a bit too close. 3-1/2' is the minimum recommended separation. You can mount either one on top, but the 91-XG is so light, it usually works best at the top. Sometimes those few extra feet help with the more fickle UHF frequencies. At 3-1/2', I haven't noticed any degredation in UHF performance with my system.
> 
> 
> Are you trapping you FM? You have 2 FM stations within 10 miles. WAMC-90.3 @ 10 kw may be problematic, even with the trap engaged.



10KW ERP at what HAAT??? 10KW at 10 miles?? Doubt its causing issues...I have 100KW at less than 10 miles...not a problem.....FM trapping is normally used when you have a 88-89MHz FM within eyeshot....(2-5 miles) or your antenna is pointed right down its throat...at 10 miles sep, the signal levels drop off enough...


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Davird_Jr* /forum/post/15947016
> 
> 
> First thanks for all the replies.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if I'm trapping FM, but I don't think so. If I do trap, will that affect my FM reception. I use the same antenna setup for FM reception.



Yes it will.....If you arent looking directly at a FM antenna farm (like the Sr Road tower in Houston with 9 FMs all running 100KW on it) or you dont live in the shadow of a FM tower, you should be fine.....I have three 100KW FMs within 15 miles of me...my CM7777 doesnt overload on them at all...I have a 88.1 18 miles to the west of me...if I swing the antenna that way, I dont see any problems on TV6....which is all the FM trap usually helps....my spectrum analyzer shows a nominal signal off the FM and no overload...now IF I lived within a few miles of the FM, yep, I could be in serious trouble...like the folks there who had filters put on their TV antennas by the FM to get rid of the overload...direction and distance makes a difference. I hardly ever use the FM trap.......


----------



## Konrad2

Has anyone found a frequency response graph for the HLSJ and UVSJ

diplexors used as high-pass filters? Something similar to this

FM trap:
http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interference/fm/frqrsp.jpg


----------



## Davird_Jr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr Touchtone* /forum/post/15955462
> 
> 
> Yes it will.....If you arent looking directly at a FM antenna farm (like the Sr Road tower in Houston with 9 FMs all running 100KW on it) or you dont live in the shadow of a FM tower, you should be fine.....I have three 100KW FMs within 15 miles of me...my CM7777 doesnt overload on them at all...I have a 88.1 18 miles to the west of me...if I swing the antenna that way, I dont see any problems on TV6....which is all the FM trap usually helps....my spectrum analyzer shows a nominal signal off the FM and no overload...now IF I lived within a few miles of the FM, yep, I could be in serious trouble...like the folks there who had filters put on their TV antennas by the FM to get rid of the overload...direction and distance makes a difference. I hardly ever use the FM trap.......



I would suspect that the closest FM station in the direction my VHF antenna is pointed is probably 40 miles or so. My UHF is pointed in almost the opposite direction to get a signal bounce off the mountain behind me, but I am not sure what FM stations are that way. Town (Pittsfield, MA) is generally in that direction about 8 miles southeast as the crow flies, but the FM stations there are pretty weak. FM from Albany, NY (about 45 miles west) is much stronger and easier to pick up here on the antenna. One of our stations will be going back to VHF 6 on June 12th. So I guess I will have to take care of my spacing before then. Lots of snow on the roof right now so this will have to wait a while.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr Touchtone* /forum/post/15955423
> 
> 
> 10KW ERP at what HAAT??? 10KW at 10 miles?? Doubt its causing issues



That is why I asked him to run the FM FOOL. I don't know how close he is. Just using the zip code shows 10 miles. The station in question has it's transmitter located well east of Albany, much closer to the Hancock area.

http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin...AMC&service=FM


----------



## gfurt

I live in rural NW Wisconsin. I am 61 miles due south of the Duluth, MN antenna farm and 72 miles from the Twin Cities antenna farms at Shoreview.


I inherited a 50 Rohn tower, VHF, and UHF antennas from my sister. When I took it down I noticed that the large UHF antenna had never been hooked up. The Channel Master preamp had only a VHF input so I figured they just said the hell with it.


I can get VHF digital signals just fine but no UHF. I need a good preamp that does both VHF & UHF.


Any recommendations?


----------



## jtbell

The Channel Master 7777 is pretty much the standard one for situations such as yours. It has high gain and low noise, and separate inputs for VHF and UHF. I use one myself, with most stations ranging from 50 to 75 miles in various directions.


Do you also have a rotator? If you don't, you'll need one. If you're currently getting stations form only one direction, you should use tvfool.com to check predicted signal levels to make sure you have a chance of receiving the stations from the other direction. Save the table (it's a PNG image) on your computer, and attach it to a post here, and people will be able to give more specific advice.


----------



## gfurt

I do have a rotor. I get the Twin Cities analog just fine as well as Duluth. It's just that I'm needing a VHF/UHF preamp.


I looked at the CM7777 and noticed that it has a switchable option for combining the signals into one input or running seperate cables from each antenna to their appropriate inputs on the preamp. Which hookup gives the best results?


----------



## jtbell

According to

http://www.channelmasterintl.com/amplifiers.html 


the 7777 amplifies VHF and UHF separately, so it wouldn't make any sense to combine the signals from separate antennas and feed them into the "combined" input, because the 7777 will simply separate them again. You'd lose a little signal at each of the combining and joining steps.


Since you have separate VHF and UHF signals to begin with, use the separate inputs. The switch inside the box is set for combined input by default, probably because most people use combination VHF/UHF antennas. So don't forget to open up the box and set the switch. I had to do that when I upgraded from a combo antenna to separates.


----------



## msmckay

Has anyone out there tried the ganged antenna method as described on the HDTV Primer site? " http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ " Had any luck? If one is combining two of the

DB8 Bow tie Antennas (side by side), how is the distance between them measured? Do I measure mast to mast or between adjacent sub bow tie arrays?


I have been playing around some and have been able to pull in some distant stations only to loose one nearby. Trade-offs, Trade-offs.


If I put two antennas on a combiner, and don't want them to interfer witheach other, how far apart do they have to be ? It has been too long since I took that electromagnetics class.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/15956437
> 
> 
> That is why I asked him to run the FM FOOL. I don't know how close he is.



Davird_Jr has a big hill between him and WAMC-FM.


----------



## systems2000

I've finalized an evaluation of interference I'm getting on RF 7 (WJLA-TV) analog. I'm getting FM interference from two stations (89.1 (WGMS) and 90.5 (WCRH)). I've got the FM trap active on both my pre-amp and DA.


The stations are 14.4 miles and 20.5 miles with .9KW and 10KW transmit power. My receive level is -43.8 dBm and -32.4 dBm at 153° and 238° magnetic. WJLA-TV is 70.7 miles, 164° magnetic, 2-edge, -95.8 dBm reception.


What can I do to resolve this interference before WJLA-TV (RF 7) becomes WJLA-DT (RF 7)?

*Antenna:* CM3020 - *Pre-Amp:* CM0264DSB - *DA:* Trunkline 20-TDA25 - *AGL:* 40'


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/15969401
> 
> 
> What can I do to resolve this interference before WJLA-TV (RF 7) becomes WJLA-DT (RF 7)?



Get rid of that huge full band antenna. You won't need VHF-LO after the transition. That should eliminate the need for any additional trapping.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/15969401
> 
> 
> What can I do to resolve this interference before WJLA-TV (RF 7) becomes WJLA-DT (RF 7)?
> 
> *Antenna:* CM3020 - *Pre-Amp:* CM0264DSB - *DA:* Trunkline 20-TDA25 - *HAAT:* 40'



Why do you need a preamp and a Trunk amplifier? It's likely that the trunk amp is overloading.


----------



## systems2000

I'm currently evaluating different antennas and looking to replace the DA with a CM3412. I wish I had known about the Antennas Direct CPA19 , before I had purchased my CM pre-amp. I may have purchased it instead.


Without the DA, I don't get WMAR, WJLA (marginal now), WGAL, WUSA, WBAL, WDCA, WNPB, WUTB, WBFF (marginal now), and WGCB.


I'm not able to get WRC-DT, WLYH-DT, WHP-DT. WHTM-DT, WETA-DT, WITF-DT, and WDCW-DT.


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: Ke Nist posted NEC SIM results for new DB-8 and CM4228HD:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html 


He found problems (mostly in the new DB-8) and recommended some fixes....

mostly going to a separate combiner.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Without the DA, I don't get WMAR, WJLA (marginal now), WGAL, WUSA, WBAL, WDCA, WNPB, WUTB, WBFF (marginal now), and WGCB.





By any chance, is the DA serving as an attenuator for those channels ? I dont have your TVFool handy.


----------



## Davird_Jr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/15968813
> 
> 
> Davird_Jr has a big hill between him and WAMC-FM.



I checked my signal levels yesterday and for whatever reason I am getting 20% better signal strength on 10-1 than on 6-1. 6-1 seems to be most susceptible to dropouts recently, other than 45-1 which almost never comes in anymore. Are they doing something differently in the past few months? Bad weather drops all of the UHF stations though. VHF remains rock solid no matter what the weather with my HD8200, usually giving me SS between 90 & 100 %. UHF continues to drive me crazy.


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/15973715
> 
> 
> Why do you need a preamp and a Trunk amplifier? It's likely that the trunk amp is overloading.



FM should NOT be causing a problem on TV7....BUT you may have a mix of A+B with the two freqs you mentioned which would be 179.6..TV7 is 174-180MHz so the mix is right at the upper edge close to the aural carrier...the amps could be picking up the mix and amplifying them as intermod mix..and that could be your problem...DO you need that much gain for the TV?? Get tunable FM traps and notch the two freqs (not one trap but two tunable traps...get rid of the mix)....dont trap in the amps....NOTCH both FMs before the amp and that should work....also see about knocking down all your TV gain.....you could be overloading something....


----------



## Digital Rules

systems2000,


The right antenna(s) will solve all many of your reception woes. I agree with Rick's suggestions, but would also replace the 3020 with a Winegard YA-1713 for VHF. Your concerns with FM should not be a concern once you eliminate the VHF-LO capable antenna. You will reduce a lot of wind load also.


I'm really wondering whether you have much luck with 11 & 13 out of Baltimore, post transition. Unfortunately, the low power(channel 11 @ 5 kw) and directional signal (channel 13 favoring areas to the east) may leave viewers in your area in the dark. I'm hoping the FCC will address these issues.


Channel 12 @ 23 kw from your area makes it here just outside DC just OK @ 65 miles, but it does hiccup occasionally.(UHF is much better) I was expecting better with VHF-HI, but am a bit dissapointed. I think the VHF digital power allotments will need to be re-evaluated.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr Touchtone* /forum/post/15981401
> 
> 
> FM should NOT be causing a problem on TV7.....



Channel 7 runs from 174-180 mhz. The second harmonic of 89.1 MHz is 178.2.

It falls within channel 7. An overloaded amplifier creates the second harmonic.


A Winegard FT-7500 or FT-7600 installed before the DA might solve the problem.


----------



## PCTools

I disagree.










This throws off the entire gain pattern of the antenna.


I did all of this stuff, and determined it was NOT worth it. I even added 3 additional sections. You end up with a sagging antenna that is worse.












> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alphanguy* /forum/post/15939009
> 
> 
> If your UHF is still not as strong as you like, contact antennas direct and procure a fourth boom section from them for the XG-91 (You'll need an additional middle boom section) and put it on, you'll have to adjust the support bracket to balance the antenna, but it helped ALOT in my situation, I'm now dropout free.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15979435
> 
> 
> By any chance, is the DA serving as an attenuator for those channels ? I dont have your TVFool handy.



I completely removed the DA and attenuators.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr Touchtone* /forum/post/15981401
> 
> 
> FM should NOT be causing a problem on TV7....



That's what I thought.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr Touchtone* /forum/post/15981401
> 
> 
> BUT you may have a mix of A+B with the two freqs you mentioned which would be 179.6..TV7 is 174-180MHz so the mix is right at the upper edge close to the aural carrier...



WJLA audio is completely wiped out by the audio from both FM stations. They're both coming through at the same audio level.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr Touchtone* /forum/post/15981401
> 
> 
> the amps could be picking up the mix and amplifying them as intermod mix..and that could be your problem...DO you need that much gain for the TV??



Yes. It doesn't matter if the DA is in the system or not.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr Touchtone* /forum/post/15981401
> 
> 
> Get tunable FM traps and notch the two freqs (not one trap but two tunable traps...get rid of the mix)....dont trap in the amps....NOTCH both FMs before the amp and that should work....



The pre-amp has a tunable FM trap. I'll see if I can eliminate some of the problem with it. I think I'll get a tin can and shield the pre-amp while I'm at it. Any recommendations on tunable FM traps?


----------



## rabbit73

 http://www.winegarddirect.com/cview~c~Traps.htm


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/15981658
> 
> 
> The right antenna(s) will solve all many of your reception woes. I agree with Rick's suggestions, but would also replace the 3020 with a Winegard YA-1713 for VHF.



I've been looking at the YA-1713 for my 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 channels. Right now I like using the CM3020, so that I can find my problem areas and best placement. Does anyone know where I can get a Televes DAT-75? I like the Gain/Beamwidth, and Front-to-Back Ratio. I've been mulling over the idea of mounting and ganging four of these pointed at York/Lancaster, Baltimore, D.C., and Altoona, while my SBGH/DBGH is used for Hagerstown, Martinsburg, Winchester, & Front Royal.


I thought I read somewhere that the DTV tuners are supposed to be really good at filtering out secondary signals. I'm thinking there's going to be a difference between multipath and antenna ganging. I'm going to test this theory, with my CM3020 and SBGH/DBGH this weekend.


----------



## holl_ands

People have found the 91XG outperforms the overspec'd DAT-75...


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/15982910
> 
> 
> A Winegard FT-7500 or FT-7600 installed before the DA might solve the problem.



Before the DA or the pre-amp?


I'm assuming I can use just one FT-7600, since it's two-stage. Unfortunately, the FT-7600 has 75 Ohm input and output connections and will have to be after the pre-amp.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/15987499
> 
> 
> Before the DA or the pre-amp?
> 
> 
> I'm assuming I can use just one FT-7600, since it's two-stage. Unfortunately, the FT-7600 has 75 Ohm input and output connections and will have to be after the pre-amp.



In your case it may work before the DA. Usually an FM trap needs to be before a preamp. Note that the FT-7600 must be specifically tuned to 89.1 after you buy it.


----------



## systems2000

Got up on the tower this morning (with the wife in front of the TV and using walkies) and adjusted the 0264DSB FM trap. WJLA is now coming in just as good as WUSA and better than WTTG, WDCA, WRC, and WETA (in that order). I don't get WDCW or WPXW.


I'm happy I didn't have to spend more money on that issue. I feel for those who will not see this problem, when the analogs go dark.


I ran across an inexpensive meter for DVB-T signals and I'm wondering when we'll see one for 8-VSB. I don't see how a home owner will be able to get maximum performance on their own without something like that, or better yet - a spectrum analyzer.


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/15987188
> 
> 
> 
> WJLA audio is completely wiped out by the audio from both FM stations. They're both coming through at the same audio level.



When you stated that, it confirmed it was a MIX and not overload by one station....otherwise, you would have heard only ONE and not both...by your next postings, I see you got rid of it with the tunable notch...CONGRATS!!!


Yeah, a simple RF meter for home use would be a great thing for consumer use...of course those of us with a spectrum analyzer can make a little extra money on the side with it


----------



## Konrad2

> a simple RF meter for home use would be a great thing for

> consumer use


Some tuners provide actual signal strength, (and a seperate

signal quality number,) so that is easy enough. Information

about multipath and interference are easy with NTSC, but not

so easy with ATSC/8VSB.


Has anyone looked into the TECH version of the HDHomeRun tuner?

Does it provide anything useful for debugging bad reception?


----------



## systems2000

Even with the meters included with ATSC devices, it's still a two man job. With a fast response hand-held meter, one person could do the job a lot easier. Spectrum analyzers would be the best, by a long shot.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Got up on the tower this morning (with the wife in front of the TV and using walkies) and adjusted the 0264DSB FM trap.



So you just screwed it in and out and observed ? I havent adjusted mine, and no directions in the box, of course. The only thing I found on the web on adjusting it, was to hook it up to an FM antenna and radio (or rabbit ears adjusted to FM frequencies) and adjust for the lowest performance on the station(s) you want to block.


----------



## systems2000

Open up the case, you should see a slotted post identified as the "Tunable Trap." It is a Variable Capacitor . You'll need a non-conductive tool that resembles a screwdriver tip (a stiff flatten straw will do). While someone is watching RF channel 6 or 7, rotate the capacitor until you get the best picture/audio possible.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Open up the case, you should see a slotted post identified as the "Tunable Trap." It is a Variable Capacitor. You'll need a non-conductive tool that resembles a screwdriver tip (a stiff flatten straw will do)



Yeah, I saw that variable cap and have plenty of TV/Radio IF coil screwdrivers on hand and a FRS/GMRS Motorola walkie talkie that Ive never used, heh. That may be the way to go, because in my situation with a channel 6, its going to have to be a very close adjustment tweak.

I was and am waiting for the post transistion to happen first though.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Some tuners provide actual signal strength, (and a seperate
> 
> signal quality number,) so that is easy enough. Information
> 
> about multipath and interference are easy with NTSC, but not
> 
> so easy with ATSC/8VSB.



Yep. Earlier in this thread, rabbit73 posted good data of comparing the output of his pricey meters against the Apex DT502. (and hopefully against the Sansonic FT300 soon). It can be used as kind of a reference source for the output of the signal quality and strength meters of those CECBs.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/15987344
> 
> 
> I've been looking at the YA-1713 for my 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 channels.



Assuming you don't need low band, use a lo/hi separator (use the hi port) as an FM trap. Place it on the antenna's output before the preamp input. It will do a much better job. No tuning required either.









http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HLSJ


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15993459
> 
> 
> I was and am waiting for the post transistion to happen first though.



If you wait until after the transition, you will not be able to see how it affects RF 6 (unless you have a spectrum analyzer). I did my adjustment while viewing WJLA-TV, not WJLA-DT.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15992570
> 
> 
> So hook it up to an FM antenna and radio (or rabbit ears adjusted to FM frequencies) and adjust for the lowest performance on the station(s) you want to block.



Some component receivers have a signal strength meter. Tune for lowest signal.


----------



## shuddle

Here is my setup:

40' antenna pole with a 91xg at the top of the pole

18" below that a CM7777

18" below that a Y10-7-13


My zip code for TVFool is 79065. According to them PBS (8 real and 2.1 virtual) and CBS (9 real and 10.1 virtual now-after the transition 10 real and 10.1 virtual) are VHFhi.

ABC (right now 23 real and 7.1 virtual) will join them after the transition and be VHFhi (7 real and 7.1 virtual)


My UHF antenna works well, but the VHF antenna does not. The PBS station rarely locks in-- maximum signal has been 26. Still can watch it with a 26 signal. CBS is better at ~ 50-60.


When we installed the CM7777 we changed the VHF switch from combined to separate. Every thing else is default.


Now the problem:

The PBS and CBS stations have a decent signal usually before 11AM and after 11PM. Between 11AM and 10-11PM if we get a signal, it is full of drop outs and pixelations---basically unwatchable.


The antenna stands beside our 2 story house with a very very steep roof. It is extremely hard to get to. Our option is to lay the tv antenna down to work on it.


What could be causing the kind of problem I am describing? Any advice is appreciated and welcome.


Sorry for the long post TIA


Sandy


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shuddle* /forum/post/15995683
> 
> 
> What could be causing the kind of problem I am describing? Any advice is appreciated and welcome.
> 
> 
> Sorry for the long post TIA
> 
> 
> Sandy



The biggest issue is that those signals are 100 miles or greater away. Additionally, the CBS has co-channel interference from your local NBC station. Consistent drop free reception at that distance especially during day time hours is probably not a realistic expectation.


----------



## shuddle

We are just 55 miles away from the towers


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shuddle* /forum/post/15995813
> 
> 
> We are just 55 miles away from the towers




Not according to tvfool for zip 79065.










The PBS, CBS, and ABC you mention are all >100 miles away.


----------



## shuddle

Gosh, we must not be looking at the same thing. Here is the link listed on th tvfool page



If you would like to share these results with others, this page can be referenced as:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d%3de288f9b2df


----------



## jtbell

TVFool does report a distance of about 100 miles if you give it just Zip code 79065. That code must cover a large area.


----------



## willscary

I also looked at your TV Fool zip code location. Both stations are indeed over 100 miles away, plus you already have a local CBS and PBS channel. The two channels in question are both in a distant market, from what I see.


Personally, I would get out my compass and aim both antennas to 184 degrees (4 degrees west of due south). I All of your digital stations will be UHF after the final transition, with the exception of KCBD NBC 11, which is obviously VHF-Hi. You also will be able to receive a ton of lower power analog channels from this direction.


I am lucky enough to receive several different markets, and I know that you are most likely hoping to do the same, but I can tell you that I use a pair of Funke psp.1922 VHF highbanders, and I would have a very hard time picking up the two distant VHF stations you are looking for. These Funkes are between 4 and 5db more sensitive than the excellent YA-1713 and are able to pick up a signal that is only about 1/3 as strong as what the 1713 can reliably receive, yet I am fairly certain that I would be unable to receive the channels in question 24/7.


One other thing...I would try to get a little more seperation between the antennas. Many people here will tell you that 3' is plenty, but I can tell you that you really want to be at least one wavelength apart. Since the lowest channel you can reliable receive is channel 11, I would try to get at least 4' (or better yet...4'-6") between the lowest part of the 91XG rear screen and the top of the YA-1713. This will eliminate any interaction between the two antennas.


Good luck.


Bill


----------



## shuddle

I posted the link to my tvfool location. I live in Pampa, TX.....~55 miles from the towers. The local stations I am trying to get are

KFDA local CBS - 3 sub channels

KVII local ABC - sub channel CW

KACV local PBS - 1 sub channel

KAMR local NBC - sub channel is MyNetwork

KCIT Local FOX


Sorry if I confused everyone by just giving my zip. But I should be able to get these stations. I can get the analog signals


----------



## Konrad2

> with a channel 6, its going to have to be a very close adjustment tweak


If you have a NTSC on channel 6 now, do your FM trap adjusting now,

while you have an easy way to see what it does to channel 6.


With a channel 6, try a 95-108 MHz FM trap. The inexpensive ones

are only 20 dB so get at least 2. Or get a better one from
http://www.tinlee.com/ 


The variable cap is presumably a notch filter. With 95-108 gone

you can use the notch filter on a station in the 88-95 range.


You may or may not be able to use a 88-108 MHz FM trap. Try one but

be prepared to take it back out if it hurts channel 6 too much. I

currently have a NTSC channel 6 and a strong 88.3 FM. One 88-108

trap helps, but using 2 of them does a real number on channel 6.

If channel 6 was staying around I'd look into a better antenna

and higher quality filters.


You could also consider a single channel antenna for channel 6,

especially if that will be your only VHF-LO station.


----------



## andytiedye




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shuddle* /forum/post/15996058
> 
> 
> I should be able to get these stations. I can get the analog signals



Analog signals are MUCH easier to receive than digital signals,

especially if the there are hills and/or trees.


We can pick up several analog stations with rabbit ears.

We cannot pick up any digital stations even with a top-rated outdoor antenna.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...69015&page=135


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/15989979
> 
> 
> ====snip====
> 
> I ran across an inexpensive meter for DVB-T signals and I'm wondering when we'll see one for 8-VSB. I don't see how a home owner will be able to get maximum performance on their own without something like that, or better yet - a spectrum analyzer.



Are there DTVs that DON'T have a signal quality meter????

If not, there's a good incentive to get a CECB coupon box....


Here's a link with a bigger picture and Labgear 27866R Spec Sheet:
http://www.chsinteractive.co.uk/elec...er-labgear.htm 
http://www.chsinteractive.co.uk/pdf_data/27866R.pdf 

And if you prefer to pay in pounds vice euros:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...01GHM1K8322496 


Since it doesn't have any frequency selection or display capability, it must

be a simple, full-band energy detector, so modulation type doesn't matter.

Should work with NTSC, ATSC, PAL, DVB-T, ad nauseum.


It allows you to rotate the antenna to maximize received power on whatever

happens to be the STRONGEST received channel. Unfortunately, if you have

a strong local station, it wouldn't help aligning antenna toward a weak station.


But if it meets your needs, consider giving them your credit card number....


======================================

The Digiair Pro displays individual channel signal strengths, but isn't as

sensitive as a professional quality signal level meter:
http://www.summitsource.com/digiair-...acturers_id=38 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...om=Large#xview 
http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/DIGIAIR_PRO.pdf 


You select whether Euro modulation types (8 MHz channels) or USA (6 MHz).

Since it measures the spectrum response using a simple peak energy detector,

it will work with ANY modulation type, although the "calibration" may be

different due to average vs peak measurements, etc.


----------



## shuddle




andytiedye said:


> Analog signals are MUCH easier to receive than digital signals,
> 
> especially if the there are hills and/or trees.
> 
> 
> I can tell you've never been to the Texas Panhandle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No hills not a lot of trees. Think rolling plains (with very little roll).
> 
> 
> Back to topic. I can get all of the UHF stations with no problems and all the transmitters are close together. The VHF stations are the ones I am having trouble getting. I was thinking there must be something wrong with our installation or amp or something.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shuddle* /forum/post/15995941
> 
> 
> Gosh, we must not be looking at the same thing. Here is the link listed on th tvfool page
> 
> 
> 
> If you would like to share these results with others, this page can be referenced as:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d%3de288f9b2df




OK, that makes more sense. You definitely need a rotator for the PBS channel. Also, not to sound like a broken record here







, but use an HLSJ between the hi vhf antenna and the preamp vhf input to further pre-filter the signal. Make sure the FM trap is "in" on the 7777 as well (although it may not matter that much with the HLSJ in-line).


Edit: sorry, didn't see that you have two PBS digital 8 nearly 180 degrees apart. This may give you problems with co-channel interference. Assuming you only need the one at 50 miles out, you shouldn't need a rotator.


----------



## willscary

Boy, I sure got different results than you did for that zip code...mine came up just as cpcat's did.


With the link you provided, that looks WORSE. You have 2 post transition channel 8s nearly 180 degrees apart and nearly the same strength. I would be willing to bet that there is enough interference to make both channels unuseable.


Your UHF stations are easy...you only have real channel 15 and 19 with KCIT and KAMR, and they are both at 247 degrees magnetic.


As I said, you have a pair of physical channel 8s. They are 171 degrees apart. The YA-1713 is not terribly directional, and will pick up the unwanted channel from the backside just enough to block the wanted channel. Can you put your antennas on the west southwest side of your house with the VHF antenna well below the roofline? This may block enough of the rear signal to allow reliable reception of your wanted KACV. Point the 1713 at 248 degrees magnetic and see what happens.


Bill


----------



## systems2000

My Sunkey's, APEX DT502's, and Zinwell ZAT-970A all have Strength and Quality meters.


I'd like to see an 8-VSB meter that is closer to 15£, then $200 U.S.


Anyone come across an very inexpensive USB tuner/software (OpenSource would be best) setup to turn my laptop into a Spectrum Analyzer?


----------



## crawgator

I'm new so if this is the wrong spot to post this let me hear it. I'm wondering if some one could recommend a setup for me. I currently have D** HR20 with a Winegard GS2000 Amplified on roof and a 2002 53" HD ready Hitachi. I'll try and link my tvfool stats. But in case it doesnt work I am in area code 71373 Vidalia, La. and maybe ya'll could run it and recommend something. I get 3 stations of knoe 8 57.3 miles, kard 36-14.1 56.8 miles. I would really like to get kalb 35 5.1 89.4 miles, wbrz 13 2.1 80 miles, wafb 46 9.1 79.6 miles, and the one strange to me wntz 49 48.1 at only 16 miles. I know they are scattered so if a rotar is needed please say so. Thanks a million. Oh yeah flat land. http://www.tvfool.com/modeling/?id=84ff608e91


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I
> 
> currently have a NTSC channel 6 and a strong 88.3 FM. One 88-108
> 
> trap helps, but using 2 of them does a real number on channel 6.
> 
> If channel 6 was staying around I'd look into a better antenna
> 
> and higher quality filters.



Your situation is even tighter than mine right now, heh. But at least your channel 6 is going away. My digital channel 6 will be on real channel 6 after the transistion. Yeah, I may adjust the trap soon. Its kind of a toss up whether judging the analog picture or reading the slow moving CECB signal meters would be better to adjust to.

I do have an upgraded CM1221 vee boom vhf antenna for channels 6 and 12, so I should be good no matter what, heh.


----------



## systems2000

Why not peak reception now, while you have the analog station, and then repeak after it goes digital.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *crawgator* /forum/post/15998592
> 
> 
> I know they are scattered so if a rotar is needed please say so.



This is what I'd do, but I'm not fond of rotators. I channel surf too much.


A High band VHF only for channels 8 and 11 aimed at 319 degrees.


Antennacraft Y10-7-13 is one option.


A wide beam UHF only for 26 and 49. Aim it at 270 degrees. Fox at 294 will be close enough.


Channel Master 4221 is a good choice.


A UHF only for channel 35 aimed at 235 degrees.


Another 4221 would be fine.


Connect the two UHF antennas together with a Channel Master Jointenna tuned to channel 35. Alternately, you can use the ganging tricks shown here: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html The first is simpler, the second is cheaper. Add the UHF signals to the VHF antenna with a Pico Macom UVSJ. That's 5 networks without a rotor.


WAFB and WBRZ are too weak unless you want to erect a tall tower. That's where I'd put a rotor to pick up anything you can't get with the first antenna. Use an A/B switch to watch anything unusual.


----------



## Konrad2

> But at least your channel 6 is going away. My digital channel 6

> will be on real channel 6 after the transistion. Yeah, I may

> adjust the trap soon. Its kind of a toss up whether judging

> the analog picture or reading the slow moving CECB signal

> meters would be better to adjust to.


A spectrum analyzer would be very useful for this, but they are

expensive.


Playing with FM traps with NTSC may provide insight into what

the filters do to the signal. An ATSC tuner will react

somewhat differently to a filter's intrusion, so the optimum

filtering might be a bit different.


With ATSC, what ultimately matters is getting the signal good

enough so that all the packets are ok after applying forward

error correction (FEC), plus some margin for varying conditions.

Some tuners will tell you this. If FEC is successful, you have

a perfect copy of the bits transmitted by the TV station. This

is useful to know, because then you know that any remaining

glitches are the fault of the TV station. And yes, some TV

stations transmit bogus data streams. Sometimes bogus enough

to crash the mpeg decoder.


----------



## Falcon_77

HDTV Primer has a new page about the 4228HD (and the new DB8).

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html 



> Quote:
> The bad news is that the new 4228HD and DB-8 are both wrecks. The good news is that the 4228HD can easily be turned into the best UHF antenna presently available.



I also noticed a gain chart for the Clearstream 2. It does not break 10dBi, which seems in line with the AD specs. Still, it is not a match for 4-bay bow-tie class antenna.


----------



## ngarrang

From that web page about the DB8's...


> Quote:
> All the 8-bay makers seem to be copying each other's mistakes.



Is there a good chance Channel Master and Antennas Direct aren't even making these antenna, and they are just slapping their name on some import? CM, AD, Terrestrial Digital and Aspen Eagle stuff all looks identical.


----------



## Don F.

I am trying to help my niece in Jefferson, Ga. receive the Atlanta dt stations. Antenna web says no chance... but tv fool gives them a good chance. We have done pretty well on analog, but recently decided to go digital. Can not receive ch 2, digital 39. Their antenna set up is, the vhf section of cm 3020 (uhf section removed), mounted about four feet higher is a cm 4228. The lead from the vhf section is combined with the 4228 on that antenna's connection point, per instructons.

Would this combination cause dt 39 to be weak, would we better off removing the vhf section. Dt 8 (gptv) will be a must (tv fool says their strongest signal) and I am thinking the 4228 should be able pull in the ch 8 signal. Location 34 07 51 56N, 83 35 44

99W. thanks for any help...


----------



## holl_ands

Preliminary Clearstream2 info (see also C2) can be found here:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ 

Note that C2 html links don't work right....


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> And yes, some TV stations transmit bogus data streams. Sometimes bogus enough to crash the mpeg decoder.



Any purpose as to why they do this ?


----------



## dvansowhat

I am in the process of trying to determine whether my parents will be able to even recieve digital signals intheir location. It appears that they are in a poor area distance-wise to any of the stations they have recieved over analog. I am wondering whether it is feasible to even try to set up a antenna system for them or not. I hope I got the location as close as I remember. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d%3d6663b3f005


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dvansowhat* /forum/post/16006216
> 
> 
> I am in the process of trying to determine whether my parents will be able to even receive digital signals in their location.



It'll work. ABC will be the hardest to receive.


Aim a big Winegard 7-69 antenna at 37 degrees. Use a Winegard PR-8800 for 281 degrees. Put it above the first antenna. Get a Jointenna for channel 20. Use a preamp.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don F.* /forum/post/16005408
> 
> 
> I am trying to help my niece in Jefferson, Ga. receive the Atlanta dt stations.



Assuming that your data is correct, channel 39 can be received with a 4228. It may be aimed wrong to find a compromise direction for WNEG. It's also possible that the method of combining the 3020 is causing a problem. The only way that you'll know is to try it.


Yet, if she don't yet have a preamp, that may fix channel 39 without any antenna modifications.


Channels 8 & 10 should be strong enough for a 4228.


To get WNEG you'd need a second UHF only antenna and a Jointenna for channel 25, but that will ruin reception of MyNET on channel 24.


----------



## dvansowhat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16006588
> 
> 
> It'll work. ABC will be the hardest to receive.
> 
> 
> Aim a big Winegard 7-69 antenna at 37 degrees. Use a Winegard PR-8800 for 281 degrees. Put it above the first antenna. Get a Jointenna for channel 20. Use a preamp.



Thanks for the reply. I was wondering if a 91 XG aimed at 34 degrees would be suitable as all of those stations are together. The reason is since they are elderly and money is a problem for them but I could swing a 91 for them since I went and got myself aWinegard 7698 put up several days ago but they are not cheap. So do you think the 91 would work? thanks.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I also noticed a gain chart for the Clearstream 2. It does not break 10dBi, which seems in line with the AD specs. Still, it is not a match for 4-bay bow-tie class antenna.



Yeah. But one of the advantages of that design is that it exhibits a very wide beam pattern for its gain compared to other 10dbi antennas.


----------



## namechamps




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/15992000
> 
> 
> Even with the meters included with ATSC devices, it's still a two man job. With a fast response hand-held meter, one person could do the job a lot easier. Spectrum analyzers would be the best, by a long shot.



Poor man version.


Get a USB ATSC tuner, plug it into a LT and now you have a battery powered HD monitor and signal meter.


I used this one:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16815116031 


USB ATSC tuner run about $50-$70. It is nothing like a spectrum analyzer but it worked for me to help align my mother's antenna better.


If the Laptop doesn't have a 2Ghz processor it won't be able to decode in realtime making analysis more difficult (pauses, freezing, glitches are caused by the CPU falling behind the mpeg stream not the reception). The signal meter still works though.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dvansowhat* /forum/post/16006703
> 
> 
> So do you think the 91 would work?



Nope. The 91XG won't receive WHO on channel 13.


----------



## dvansowhat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16008258
> 
> 
> Nope. The 91XG won't receive WHO on channel 13.



Thanks for the advice. I will look into another antenna option like my Winegard 7698 or 97 for them. I also found this meter just for my own basic use to help in my antenna alignment so will this be adequate? http://www.antennasdirect.com/sm100.html


----------



## eboggs5

I have a question regarding the use of a solid screen wire reflector used with the Gray Hoverman design of antenna. Does the screen need to stay insulated away from the mast attachments? I know on the CM4221 that the screen is grounded to the mast. I realize in order for the co-linear reflector or split screen reflector to work it needs to be insulated from the mast or the effects will be altered.


Ed Boggs


----------



## EscapeVelocity

There is a Channel Master 4251 7 ft Parabolic UHF antenna for sale on ebay, new in box, local pickup Peoria Illinois....if anyone is interested. Not mine.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *eboggs5* /forum/post/16009692
> 
> 
> I have a question regarding the use of a solid screen wire reflector used with the Gray Hoverman design of antenna. Does the screen need to stay insulated away from the mast attachments? I know on the CM4221 that the screen is grounded to the mast. I realize in order for the co-linear reflector or split screen reflector to work it needs to be insulated from the mast or the effects will be altered.
> 
> 
> Ed Boggs



Yep, the screen needs to stay insulated away from the mast attachments for the split screen reflector. Otherwise you short the two sections together for .5 to 1 dbi less gain, like you do using a solid screen wire reflector. Splitting the solid screen into two sections is very easy once the antenna is completed.


----------



## ThoraX695




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16007793
> 
> 
> Yeah. But one of the advantages of that design is that it exhibits a very wide beam pattern for its gain compared to other 10dbi antennas.



I wonder how the ClearSteam4 stacks up against the newer 4228HD and DB-8 8-bay models.


----------



## systems2000

That meter seems to be a full band device that measures RF 14 to 51. It can also be had here;

http://www.htmart.com/product.php?pr...&cat=53&page=1


----------



## jrwalte

Issue with UHF DTV signal that is only 5.5 miles away:


I've just installed a Channel Master CM-3016 in the attic of a 1 story home without a ground. Most homes in the area are 1 story but a lot of trees are in the direction of towers (trying to get away without having to install it outside). According to AntennaWeb the stations I care about are all within 20 degrees of each other are no more than 10 miles away and are all yellow or red.


I currently have the antenna pointing at 217 degrees and it is sitting on the rafters as I haven't been able to install mast yet. I've installed a preamp Channel Master Spartan 3 CM-0068 and currently running directly to TV with no splits to test (I plan on splitting 4-way with an 8Db amplified splitter). The RG-6 Quad run from the Antenna to preamp power plug is about 10 feet long.


The preamp didn't have any wire supplied to connect to antenna so I used all I had available, which was individually sheathed 10-gauge stranded (as in they are not run together in the same sheath). This is currently about 18" long. It'll be shortned to probably about 8" once it is installed on mast. *Is this a possible issue? What should I use?*


Every channel is working except PeachTree TV (TBS replacement). The analog tower (uhf yellow) @ 8.8 miles 227 degrees comes in pretty clear (you can see very faint ghost image). The digital tower (uhf yellow) @ 5.5 miles 217 degrees won't come in.


I have a signal meter on my Samsung LCD which goes to a total of 12 bars. Most DTV channels are between 7-9 bars with NBC being only 5-6 (NBC is red VHF @ 8 miles 202 degrees). I haven't been able to test NBC during the day, but right now at 9 PM I'm having no issues.


The peachtree DTV signal meter will drop in and out, reaching up to 8 bars, but the constant drop out of signal causes the picture to rarely appear.


My next step is to install the mast and have my wife at the TV while I'm in the attic changing the direction to see if that makes an improvement.

*I'm posting to see if you may see any flaw in my install that is causing this weak DTV channel or if it is just an attic problem and I'll probably have to install it outside to resolve the issue.*


----------



## jtbell

Have you tried it without the preamp? Most people would say you're too close to use a preamp, in fact it can actually be counterproductive because too strong a signal can easily overload your tuner or even the preamp itself.


----------



## dvansowhat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16012610
> 
> 
> That meter seems to be a full band device that measures RF 14 to 51. It can also be had here;
> 
> http://www.htmart.com/product.php?pr...&cat=53&page=1



Thanks for the headsup on that product and website.


----------



## jrwalte




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/16013857
> 
> 
> Have you tried it without the preamp? Most people would say you're too close to use a preamp, in fact it can actually be counterproductive because too strong a signal can easily overload your tuner or even the preamp itself.



I originally ran it without the preamp and peachtree would work almost all the time. However, NBC and ABC would drop out or not appear. Now those two work and peachtree is problematic.


But I'll keep it in mind that it may work better without the preamp. Wasn't aware of that.


----------



## Jim Miller

Also snag a length of 300ohm twin lead to do a proper connection between the preamp and antenna.


Can't hurt.


jtm


----------



## jrwalte




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jim Miller* /forum/post/16013963
> 
> 
> Also snag a length of 300ohm twin lead to do a proper connection between the preamp and antenna.
> 
> 
> Can't hurt.
> 
> 
> jtm



300 Ohm like this? 


The wire was so thin I wasn't sure it was good enough and it was breaking apart when I tried to tighten it to the antenna (I cut apart a 300-ohm twin lead radio antenna I had). This compared to the 300 to 75 balun that came with the antenna, which is solid, probably 18 or 16 awg.


Is that wire linked good and I should just use some crimps to attach it to the preamp and antenna? I've tried calling around to TV/electronic stores most of which don't even answer and one that even said, "300 ohm isn't used anymore - get 75 ohm instead." I couldn't explain to him what I was trying to do for the life of me










Do you know of a good place I could buy some online?



Also, to test the signal 'without the preamp' do you think I could do this by taking the coax currently going into the preamp power unit and connecting it directly to the TV?


----------



## Jim Miller

Your preamp should be mounted pretty close to the antenna on the mast. How long is the 300ohm run?


The 300ohm line should be at least 3 widths away from any metal in its run to maintain the proper impedence.


I get my wire from www.thewireman.com for my ham antennas but I doubt you'd want as much as their minimum order.


What sort of screw downs are causing you to break the wire? Perhaps you should put the wire under a flatwasher to prevent breaking it.


jtm


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dvansowhat* /forum/post/16008913
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice. I will look into another antenna option like my Winegard 7698 or 97 for them. I also found this meter just for my own basic use to help in my antenna alignment so will this be adequate? http://www.antennasdirect.com/sm100.html



That meter has no way to know which channel you want to aim at.


----------



## jrwalte

The preamp is currently sitting on the attic insulation as is the antenna since I need to install a 2x4 across my trust in order to install the mast at the right place. Also, I wasn't sure of where to find a 'mast' and I bought a 2 foot fan metal extention pole, not painted. Does that matter?


The 300-ohm run I was trying to install was about 16 inches, which I would have shortened to as short as possible once mounted on mast, while leaving a slight dip in the wire.


I noticed the 300-ohm from the website you mentioned is 18 awg. That's around what I was thinking it should be. All I've been able to find locally is probably 24 awg or smaller.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I wonder how the ClearSteam4 stacks up against the newer 4228HD and DB-8 8-bay models.



When you stack two identical antennas together and do it right, you should expect about 2.5 dbi increase in gain (3 dbi is theoretical). AFAIK, AD is changing their marketing literature to show about 12.5 dbi gain on the CS4. The 4228HD as shipped, is worse than the old 4228, per Ken Nist. I havent looked at the DB-8, I rather look at mclapps 8 bay, heh.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jrwalte* /forum/post/16013830
> 
> 
> I've installed a preamp Channel Master Spartan 3 CM-0068 and currently running directly to TV with no splits to test (I plan on splitting 4-way with an 8Db amplified splitter). The RG-6 Quad run from the Antenna to preamp power plug is about 10 feet long.



Try installing a non-powered 4-way. Be sure to terminate the other three ports.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jrwalte* /forum/post/16013830
> 
> 
> The preamp didn't have any wire supplied to connect to antenna so I used all I had available, which was individually sheathed 10-gauge stranded (as in they are not run together in the same sheath). This is currently about 18" long. It'll be shortned to probably about 8" once it is installed on mast. *Is this a possible issue? What should I use?*



I'd talk to a local installation company/repair shop and see if you can't get a foot or two of high quality 300 Ohm cable.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I noticed the 300-ohm from the website you mentioned is 18 awg. That's around what I was thinking it should be. All I've been able to find locally is probably 24 awg or smaller.



Except for open wire, 18 gauge is rare for 300ohm wire. 20 and 22 gauge (and for indoor use, 24 gauge) were the most common for twin lead.


----------



## ngarrang

Location is very important. I have read many times on this board that even moving an antenna six inches can make a big difference. Tonight, I discovered one of thos differences. I lowered the mounting spot of my Eagle Aspen DB2 down 12 inches from its previous spot, and picked up two additional digital channels (45.1, 45.2).


This got me thinking!


Tomorrow night, I am going to mount a pole to my TV stand and put the DB2 above the TV. This will give the antenna a naked view of the window behind it, and in front of it, that it does not have now.


So, the current channel count is 11 analog, 23 digital. I have a 29db amplifier on order. I am curious if I will suddenly find 7.1 and 9.1 with it.


----------



## jrwalte




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16014393
> 
> 
> Except for open wire, 18 gauge is rare for 300ohm wire. 20 and 22 gauge (and for indoor use, 24 gauge) were the most common for twin lead.



So you think the really thin wire from fry's is acceptable and use it with crimps for a better connection?


----------



## jrwalte




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16014382
> 
> 
> Try installing a non-powered 4-way. Be sure to terminate the other three ports.



I'll buy some terminators and try this. Didn't know open points needed to be terminated (makes sense, though!) and I'll only be using 3 of them so good to know.


----------



## dvansowhat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16014199
> 
> 
> That meter has no way to know which channel you want to aim at.



The channels I will aim at are all around 300 t0 333 so this should help. I have a lot of trees in the way so at leaf out I may be able to re-orient the antenna as needed. The 7698 has improved my reception by 25 to 30% just by looking at my tv meter but I thought this may be more convienent when I am on the roof. thanks for the help.


----------



## systems2000

I just checked a roll of 300 Ohm I have laying around and it's labeled:

*Channel Master Polyclad Model 9354*


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> So you think the really thin wire from fry's is acceptable and use it with crimps for a better connection?



I personally dont like to crimp when I could solder.


----------



## jrwalte

Well this morning right after sunrise the Peachtree channel that wouldn't come in at all was coming in just fine at 9/12 bar signal.


----------



## Konrad2

I'm looking at
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html 

and wondering what the deal is. "Combiner" means

using a splitter backwards, right? Thus the 0.5 dB loss.

Can someone explain *why* this results in more gain than

the factory setup? Does impedance play a role here?


Do the 4228 and DB8 use the same setup as the 8800?

The 8800 is a bit weak in the channel 40-50 range,

would switching to 2 baluns and a combiner help?


How accurate are these models? The HD-7698P graph

bounces up and down wildly, which seems unlikely.

Yes it says the model is still in development, but

I've seen similar oddness on other graphs which

have (I assume) models that are considered mature.


----------



## ThoraX695




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16007793
> 
> 
> Yeah. But one of the advantages of that design is that it exhibits a very wide beam pattern for its gain compared to other 10dbi antennas.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16014329
> 
> 
> When you stack two identical antennas together and do it right, you should expect about 2.5 dbi increase in gain (3 dbi is theoretical). AFAIK, AD is changing their marketing literature to show about 12.5 dbi gain on the CS4. The 4228HD as shipped, is worse than the old 4228, per Ken Nist. I havent looked at the DB-8, I rather look at mclapps 8 bay, heh.



According to Ken's latest "temporary" simulations, it looks like Antennas Direct is spot-on with their gain claims with the CS2. It appears that the "out-of-the-box" 4228HD still beats 12.5 dbi across most of the 14-51 band though, but its beam pattern is still probably narrower than the CS4.


I have a classic 4228 with the cross-feedline removed and replaced with two baluns and a splitter. It was in my attic and was thinking about putting it on my roof, but I need to make sure it's quite watertight first.


----------



## ngarrang

Added a 24db amp to my DB2 and voila! Much better reception of the stations I can receive. w00t.


----------



## ctdish

The 0.5 dB loss is optimistic in my experience. To get a loss in this range you need to use a stripline combiner costing around a hundred bucks. I measured several 2 and four port splitters in pairs on channel 51. This gives no change in impediance and you get the sum of the two losses for each pair. In all the cases where I used the small cast metal ones with little transformers in them I got a loss of 5 dB. Meaning each one used as a combiner would lose 2.5 dB.


A miss match in impedance will result in only part of the received signal getting into the coax and preamp/receiver. The accuracy of the models could be verified by someone trying the modification and measuring the increase in receive level. Be neat if someone with one tried it.

John





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/16018199
> 
> 
> I'm looking at
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html
> 
> and wondering what the deal is. "Combiner" means
> 
> using a splitter backwards, right? Thus the 0.5 dB loss.
> 
> Can someone explain *why* this results in more gain than
> 
> the factory setup? Does impedance play a role here?
> 
> 
> Do the 4228 and DB8 use the same setup as the 8800?
> 
> The 8800 is a bit weak in the channel 40-50 range,
> 
> would switching to 2 baluns and a combiner help?
> 
> 
> How accurate are these models? The HD-7698P graph
> 
> bounces up and down wildly, which seems unlikely.
> 
> Yes it says the model is still in development, but
> 
> I've seen similar oddness on other graphs which
> 
> have (I assume) models that are considered mature.


----------



## Konrad2

>> And yes, some TV stations transmit bogus data streams.

>> Sometimes bogus enough to crash the mpeg decoder.

>

> Any purpose as to why they do this ?


The problems caused by the bogus datastreams often resemble

reception problems. If you are into conspiracy theories,

I suppose maybe someone owns stock in the cable/sat companies?


Example:










But there is that quote about never assuming malice for things

that can be explained by incompetence, so I'm assuming incompetence.


----------



## Piggie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/16021545
> 
> 
> The 0.5 dB loss is optimistic in my experience. To get a loss in this range you need to use a stripline combiner costing around a hundred bucks. I measured several 2 and four port splitters in pairs on channel 51. This gives no change in impediance and you get the sum of the two losses for each pair. In all the cases where I used the small cast metal ones with little transformers in them I got a loss of 5 dB. Meaning each one used as a combiner would lose 2.5 dB.
> 
> 
> A miss match in impedance will result in only part of the received signal getting into the coax and preamp/receiver. The accuracy of the models could be verified by someone trying the modification and measuring the increase in receive level. Be neat if someone with one tried it.
> 
> John



I used the same joiner on both VHF and UHF. On VHF stacking helped. I had more loss on UHF.


----------



## alphanguy

I have been thinking, that antennas would be MUCH less visually obtrusive if the color of the elments weren't so darn BRIGHT and SHINY. the reflector grids of the XG-91 with that gun metal tone practically dissappear on my roof... isn't there any way to make the rest of the elements that same color? Elements are anodized, right? Any type of chemical antiquing process or spray application that would darken the elements to a graphite or gun metal color? Without affecting the performance in any way, of course!!! Of course, one COULD paint the boom (not getting any on the elements) a nice, dark color, and that would HELP... but any suggestions to darken the elements?


----------



## Jim Miller

As long as the covering is non-conductive it should have little effect. The dielectric properties might shift the resonant frequency somewhat but given that these antennas are fairly broadband it shouldn't be noticeable.


The most difficult problem will be finding something which survives UV and weather. You might need to reapply occasionally. You probably don't need to have 100% coverage to achieve the desired result. Just a light dusting would probably work.


good luck


jtm


----------



## MikeBiker

You could cover the antenna with a camouflage net.


----------



## SMWinnie

Sorry if this has been covered before. I wasn't able to find the answer with the search facility.


I have an attic-mounted CM4228 feeding a TiVo HD. I would like to add a preamp but also split the feed to support another tuner and a SiliconDust HDHomeRun.


My understanding is that either:

(1) It's best to split the feed after the output of the power injector, but one can split the feed between the pre-amp and the power injector so long as one uses a special splitter that blocks DC on any terminal not inline between the power injector and the preamp.

...or...

(2) The feed should never be split until after the power injector because it doesn't work (at all/as well).


I have some aesthetic and cabling issues that would make a split between the injector and the pre-amp really helpful. If the in-between split works, is there a favored splitter (or preamp/injector/splitter combination) known to work well?


My alternative will have to be to mount the power injector in the attic. If I end up going that route, are there any models I should be thinking of given the wide spread in operating temperature?


Thanks for your attention.


----------



## systems2000

A power passing splitter will work. Try to get one that passes power on one leg only. If not, place a DC block on the other leg.


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/16018199
> 
> 
> I'm looking at
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html
> 
> and wondering what the deal is. "Combiner" means
> 
> using a splitter backwards, right? Thus the 0.5 dB loss.
> 
> Can someone explain *why* this results in more gain than
> 
> the factory setup? Does impedance play a role here?



In an ideal situation, the signals from the two halves of the antenna travel along the phasing wire to the balun and onto the coax. In the real situation, several bad things can happen


1) Impedance mismatch between the phasing harness and antenna half. This will cause power to be reflected from the phasing harness back out the antenna.


2) Impedance mismatch between the phasing harness and the balun. This will cause power to be reflected back along the phasing harness.


3) The phasing harness can directly radiate power.


The HDTVPrimer guy has said that the old 4228 harness radiates power.


----------



## jruser

Will an antenna like the HD7694P pick up a channel from the rear? I need to pick up channels at 21, 28, 31, and 224 degrees. Another channel at 261 degrees would be nice too.


The signals are pretty good as I can pick them up with an indoor powered loop & bunny ears pointed out a window.



Also, what kind of mount should I use to mount the HD7694P at the peak of the roof? I've been looking at eave mounts and j-mounts, but couldn't find a max weight of either. I'd hate for the bolts to get ripped out with some wind.


----------



## Jim Miller

Anyone find a CM-2020 shipping yet? Nothing in my web searches.


tnx

jtm


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jim Miller* /forum/post/16024483
> 
> 
> As long as the covering is non-conductive it should have little effect. The dielectric properties might shift the resonant frequency somewhat but given that these antennas are fairly broadband it shouldn't be noticeable.
> 
> 
> The most difficult problem will be finding something which survives UV and weather. You might need to reapply occasionally. You probably don't need to have 100% coverage to achieve the desired result. Just a light dusting would probably work.
> 
> 
> good luck
> 
> 
> jtm



Yep, in theory the paint wont affect it much. But Im superstitious and like my antenna wire bare, heh.


Yes, just a light dusting with the spray paint will do the trick and even last longer than a heavy 7 coat job. Just dont paint the balun connection points, heh.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The HDTVPrimer guy has said that the old 4228 harness radiates power.



Yes, its very hard to prevent horizontal phasing lines from acting as part of the antenna. Vertical phasing lines dont have this problem.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The signals are pretty good as I can pick them up with an indoor powered loop & bunny ears pointed out a window.



Keep in mind, those antennas have a figure 8 radiation pattern. The HD7694P is much more directive towards the front.




> Quote:
> Also, what kind of mount should I use to mount the HD7694P at the peak of the roof? I've been looking at eave mounts and j-mounts, but couldn't find a max weight of either. I'd hate for the bolts to get ripped out with some wind.



The mounting metal, while thin, is extremely strong. The weak point would be the lag bolts, so use longer ones with washers.


----------



## jrwalte

If I want to test how a splitter will effect my antenna signal, do I have to have all TVs/Tuners connected and turned on or can I test with just 1 TV connected and placing a terminator on any open coax connection of the splitter?


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jrwalte* /forum/post/16034446
> 
> 
> If I want to test how a splitter will effect my antenna signal, do I have to have all TVs/Tuners connected and turned on or can I test with just 1 TV connected and placing a terminator on any open coax connection of the splitter?



the splitter will attenuate your signal without connecting anything to the open ports.


----------



## kedirekin

But for the most faithful results, use the terminator or connect the other TV. The other TV does not need to be on.


----------



## Jim Miller

I'm giving up on the CM-2020 search and going instead for a Winegard HD7698P for the attic. Gain is higher anyway which is a benefit.


Any opinions on this unit?


tnx

jtm


----------



## jruser




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16032278
> 
> 
> Keep in mind, those antennas have a figure 8 radiation pattern. The HD7694P is much more directive towards the front.



Is that a no on picking up the channels 180 degrees apart? Is there a decent outdoor antenna that can work from both directions?


I need VHF for channel 9...


----------



## systems2000

A di-pole.


----------



## systems2000

 http://www.zorg.org/radio/dipole_antenna.php 


Channel RF 9 = 187.25MHz

http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html 

http://www.educypedia.be/electronics/antennadipole.htm 


The problem I see with 300 Ohm twin-lead is that it has a spacing gap of only ¼" on the roll I have.
_*NOTE:* I just ran the calc for ¼" and it didn't show any difference._


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jruser* /forum/post/16037750
> 
> 
> Is that a no on picking up the channels 180 degrees apart? Is there a decent outdoor antenna that can work from both directions?
> 
> 
> I need VHF for channel 9...



Not necessarily a no, but it depends on how strong the signal is coming from the back. Picking it up with a loop indoors indicates you have a strong signal, but you never know exactly what will happen with a stronger directional antenna until you actually have it up and mounted.



> Quote:
> A di-pole



The folded dipole has about .75 dbi more in gain.


----------



## samstom

Hey guys,

Did anyone modify their 4228hd as what Ken did to improve their gains?


----------



## MikeBiker

I general, the higher the gain of an antenna, the less signal it gets off the back.


----------



## jns82

I've always gotten good avice here, I am back for more. The digital strength of most of my channels fluctuate what I consider to be broadly, e.g. 35-50%on one channel, 80-90% on another, in a couple seconds. Not much of an issue except in that dropout range for a few channels (25-40%). The antennas are stable (roof mounted ya-1713 and 91xg)-i.e. not moving. Connections and cable seem to be good. I am sure the fluctation reported is a product of the sensitivity of the digital strength meter and output, but what are some causes of this wide fluctuation? Multipath? Just the manifestation of a weak signal stream?


----------



## serndipity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jns82* /forum/post/16042484
> 
> 
> I've always gotten good avice here, I am back for more. The digital strength of most of my channels fluctuate what I consider to be broadly, e.g. 35-50%on one channel, 80-90% on another, in a couple seconds. Not much of an issue except in that dropout range for a few channels (25-40%). The antennas are stable (roof mounted ya-1713 and 91xg)-i.e. not moving. Connections and cable seem to be good. I am sure the fluctation reported is a product of the sensitivity of the digital strength meter and output, but what are some causes of this wide fluctuation? Multipath? Just the manifestation of a weak signal stream?



The signal meter indicates signal quality, which is a function of the decoding errors of the 8VSB modulation bit stream (not signal strength).


Low meter indications can be due to result of older generation ATSC tuners (e.g. not able to compensate for the lost data), low signal strength and/or multipath.


Additionally, while the ATSC standards and 8VSB modulation do have +s and -s, handling dynamic conditions is not a +. While, current 6th generation tuners are much better, the changing dynamics of weather, foliage, wind, and nearby moving objects can cause a lot of havoc (specially in the UHF band).


Following is a link that describes what one person went through to correct multipath (has before and after spectrum analyzer displays). Note that there are 2 pages within this link.

http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~wn17/ 


IMHO, reception of multipath (static or dynamic) is, more ofen then not, the culprit.


You seem to be using antennas with very good directionality patterns, which is the 1st line of defense.


Perhaps re-aiming (e.g. to maximize the direct signal and minimize multipath) could be of some benefit.


Additionally, your coax is likely to be part of the antenna system and is picking up some multipath. See post 1957 at:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...798265&page=66


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The digital strength of most of my channels fluctuate what I consider to be broadly, e.g. 35-50%on one channel, 80-90% on another, in a couple seconds.



Do you mean fluctuating only 10 to 15% ? Thats pretty much normal on a lot of CECB meters (some will read more steady) due to minor atmospheric changes. Or do you mean going from 50 to 90% in a couple of seconds ? If so, thats something coming between you and the transmitter, like an airplane.


----------



## Konrad2

serndipity provided the very interesting URL:
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/%7Ewn17/ 


I've thought of trying to shield an antenna,

but always assumed that the inside surface would reflect

waves towards the antenna, creating new multipath.

Is there a VHF/UHF absorbing material that the inside

of the shield could be lined with?


Clearly in Bill's case the net result is a major win.

I wonder if this is typical?


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/16044999
> 
> 
> serndipity provided the very interesting URL:
> http://www.prism.gatech.edu/%7Ewn17/
> 
> 
> I've thought of trying to shield an antenna,
> 
> but always assumed that the inside surface would reflect
> 
> waves towards the antenna, creating new multipath.
> 
> Is there a VHF/UHF absorbing material that the inside
> 
> of the shield could be lined with?
> 
> 
> Clearly in Bill's case the net result is a major win.
> 
> I wonder if this is typical?



because the shield is grounded it doesn't act the same as a reflector which is floating.


That type of shielding and making an aperture is extreme but sometimes needed in strong multipath situations.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I've thought of trying to shield an antenna,
> 
> but always assumed that the inside surface would reflect
> 
> waves towards the antenna, creating new multipath.



That would be my gut feeling too. I would think his design could be made better if the frame were connected by hinges, so that it would be adjustable and could be tweaked in individual situations for best performance.


----------



## ngarrang

Like many of you, I experimented with different antennae, purchased and home-built. All of my experiments have been indoor-placed, either above my TV or on the wall to the right of my TV. The antenna is usually facing 180 degrees. I have Dayton to my north, and Cincinnati to my south, so plenty of channel receiving possibilities.


My first antenna was an RCA ANT537. It was an emergency purchase during a week when my DirecTV was down. It was _okay_. Not great, but it received the PBS stations so my 3-yr old could still watch Thomas the Tank Engine.


Fast forward a year later, to save money, I cancel DirecTV. Over the course of many, many years as a subscriber, my monthly bill had crept up to $92/month.










And thus, I had to really research this stuff. I next bought the Winegard SS-3000. It was better than the RCA. At this point, I only care about the digital stations, since I have 21 to 24 of them to receive, depending on the antenna and the weather.


I _recycled_ some of my wife's metal coat hangers and experimented with a few designs and variations (SBGH, DB1, DB2, DB4, UHF Loop) and also purchased a pair of Eagle Aspen DB2's. I also picked up a 24db amplifier. Every antenna improved with the amplifier.







Funny how that happens, eh? I also picked up a spool of 14 ga wire when my wife's coat hangers began to become scarce.


So far, the two best performers have been the Eagle Aspen DB2 and my home-built SBGH. I don't have a meter to show gains and losses, and I am fairly certain that I am suffering from multi-path. I am getting primarily Cinci stations. There are two digital Dayton stations I am not receiving, yet. My brick house is not exactly the most condusive to quality reception indoors.


My next round of experimenting will be in the attic. I am not quite ready for the roof phase.


The design that intrigues me the most, actually, is the UHF Loop. It has been the most omnidirectional experiment I have tried.


The Eagle Aspen works remarkably well in my son's room. He is at the end of the house and easily receives all the important channels without the reflector installed. Why isn't the reflector installed? Manufacturing defect. They forgot to drill one of the reflector attachment holes.







No biggie, I am recycling it for use with other antenna experiments.


All of my home-built designs have been reflectorless.


Going OTA has been great excuse to experiment during this cold weather.


----------



## Konrad2

>> I've thought of trying to shield an antenna,

>> but always assumed that the inside surface would reflect

>> waves towards the antenna, creating new multipath.

>> Is there a VHF/UHF absorbing material that the inside

>> of the shield could be lined with?


> because the shield is grounded it doesn't act the same as a

> reflector which is floating.


Why would this apply to a shield but not to the ground itself,

which generates a ground reflection?


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/16047610
> 
> 
> >> I've thought of trying to shield an antenna,
> 
> >> but always assumed that the inside surface would reflect
> 
> >> waves towards the antenna, creating new multipath.
> 
> >> Is there a VHF/UHF absorbing material that the inside
> 
> >> of the shield could be lined with?
> 
> 
> > because the shield is grounded it doesn't act the same as a
> 
> > reflector which is floating.
> 
> 
> Why would this apply to a shield but not to the ground itself,
> 
> which generates a ground reflection?



metal in a metallic shield is affected by the waves strongly, that is why metal is either a good antenna or a shield depending on how it is used.


the earth has various amounts of metal in it, it isn't the same as pure metal in its behavior to radio waves


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/16047610
> 
> 
> >> I've thought of trying to shield an antenna,
> 
> >> but always assumed that the inside surface would reflect
> 
> >> waves towards the antenna, creating new multipath.
> 
> >> Is there a VHF/UHF absorbing material that the inside
> 
> >> of the shield could be lined with?
> 
> 
> > because the shield is grounded it doesn't act the same as a
> 
> > reflector which is floating.
> 
> 
> Why would this apply to a shield but not to the ground itself,
> 
> which generates a ground reflection?



ANYTHING around the antenna will affect it....although conductive materials

are much worse than non-conductive (e.g. dielectric) materials.

All of this can be simulated with a powerful enough version of NEC Sim....and patience....


To reduce multipath, antenna designs use reflectors and directors to maximize

response in the desired direction and minimize response in undesired directions.

So higher gain, higher F/B antennas help to reduce multipath.


Some antenna designs are better at suppressing the rear sidelobes, such as

the 91XG and a super-sized 3-D Corner Reflector, which builds HALF of

a box around the antenna (hint, hint....):
http://www.cebik.com/content/a10/vhf/3c.html 
http://www.cebik.com/content/radio.html 

FREE registration required.....


Additional shielding can also help, such as constructing a chicken wire "fence"

between the antenna and likely multipath sources. This is perhaps easier to

do in attic locations.....


----------



## ngarrang

The Eagle Aspen DB2 is now installed in the attic, 14' from ground level. A channel scan gives me 24 digital channels. The problem child of digitals for me was channel 45.1 and 45.2, they are now crystal clear.


My antenna post in the attic will easily allow me to try my other antenna designs at-will. Somewhere, there is a digital 7 and 9 for me to receive.


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16039178
> 
> 
> 
> The folded dipole has about .75 dbi more in gain.



Really?? Where did you get that info from??


Only thing a folded dipole has over a regular dipole is a higher impedance (typically 300ohms vs 75 but it can be different).....None of my reference books make any claim of gain....and considering a dipole is 2.15dbi. .75more is not much to look at....if it were the case at all.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr Touchtone* /forum/post/16050624
> 
> 
> Really?? Where did you get that info from??
> 
> 
> Only thing a folded dipole has over a regular dipole is a higher impedance (typically 300ohms vs 75 but it can be different).....None of my reference books make any claim of gain....and considering a dipole is 2.15dbi. .75more is not much to look at....if it were the case at all.



From modeling a reference UHF folded dipole in NEC2. IIRC, Ive seen that 2.9 dbi figure in some books too. Modeling a plain dipole in NEC2, I get very close to that 2.15 dbi figure. Yeah, .75 dbi is not much, but its something at least, and it may not apply to something like a twinlead folded dipole, which I havent yet modeled.


----------



## systems2000

Any kind of VHF dipole is better than just a plain old UHF antenna.










And since there isn't any reflector, you should be able to receive stations 180° from each other.


Of course, a simple yagi will give more gain (ie. Director, Folded Dipole, Reflector).


Has anyone used a "Grid Yagi" for reception? http://home.comcast.net/~ross_anderson/GridYagi.htm 


Am I right in assuming that it is a narrow band antenna and can be used for good single station reception?


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16052312
> 
> 
> Any kind of VHF dipole is better than just a plain old UHF antenna.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And since there isn't any reflector, you should be able to receive stations 180° from each other.
> 
> 
> Of course, a simple yagi will give more gain (ie. Director, Folded Dipole, Reflector).
> 
> 
> Has anyone used a "Grid Yagi" for reception? http://home.comcast.net/~ross_anderson/GridYagi.htm
> 
> 
> Am I right in assuming that it is a narrow band antenna and can be used for good single station reception?



those hams they're just wacko. his intention is to be narrow band.


it has a wind and ice load. i don't think it would hold it dimensions long.


it's not a yagi and it's not a quad. it is different what ever it is.


----------



## ngarrang

My DB2 (with reflector) does a good job of picking of Channel 12.1 (digital 12), but doesn't see WCPO-TV Channel 9 (analog 9) or 9.1 (digital 10). It is a UHF antenna, so I am happy that is sees 12 as well as it does.


Would a DB4 give me a better shot of getting 9.1 without the need of a secondary VHF-only antenna?


----------



## serndipity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr Touchtone* /forum/post/16050624
> 
> 
> Really?? Where did you get that info from??
> 
> 
> Only thing a folded dipole has over a regular dipole is a higher impedance (typically 300ohms vs 75 but it can be different).....None of my reference books make any claim of gain....and considering a dipole is 2.15dbi. .75more is not much to look at....if it were the case at all.



I wondered about that as well.

The folded dipole has a acquired something of a complex web of correct and incorrect information surrounding it.


L. B. Cebik did a paper to sort out what it is correct to say about the folded dipole.

http://www.cebik.com/content/a10/wire/fdpl.html 


Note: Use the root URL for free registration to this treasure of antenna information.


The bottom line was that the folded dipole does not have any more gain than a dipole antenna.


----------



## PCTools

Could you imagine someone stacking two of those on their tower?










Two garbage cans on a tower. All you need then, is a mobile home next to it.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/16044999
> 
> 
> serndipity provided the very interesting URL:
> http://www.prism.gatech.edu/%7Ewn17/
> 
> 
> I've thought of trying to shield an antenna,
> 
> but always assumed that the inside surface would reflect
> 
> waves towards the antenna, creating new multipath.
> 
> Is there a VHF/UHF absorbing material that the inside
> 
> of the shield could be lined with?
> 
> 
> Clearly in Bill's case the net result is a major win.
> 
> I wonder if this is typical?


----------



## arbie

I have one low-power VHF-HI (channel 8) digital station currently, with four more

full-service VHF-HI digital stations to appear in June. I am using a roof-mounted

Channel Master CM-4221 4-bay. To improve VHF-HI gain, I replaced the 20" wide 1"x2"

mesh reflector with a 36" wide 1"x2" mesh reflector. My experiment was a success,

and I can now receive channel 8 with a Zenith DTT901, although the signal-level is

very low. The signal-level of the existing analog VHF-HI stations also improved, and I

appear to have sufficient VHF-HI antenna gain for the full-service stations in June.


I have one more CM-4221 to modify, and I am wondering if there are better alternatives.

For example, if you look at various yagi design sites, the Driven Element/Reflector

distance for a 180 MHz (channel 8) antenna varies between about 9 3/4" (ARRL) and 13"

(DL6WU), depending on the model. The Driven Element/Reflector distance on my CM-4221

is only 4.5"! Should I have left the CM-4221's existing 20" wide reflector, and placed

a second VHF-HI reflector (horizontal rods would be sufficient) 5" to 8" behind the

original reflector?


I don't have the computer equipment or expertise to model antennas, so I thought I

ask here. Has anyone modeled adding a VHF-HI reflector behind a standard 4-bay reflector?

Or, modeled adding a VHF-HI reflector to a UHF corner-reflector yagi, such as a U-75R?


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Two garbage cans on a tower. All you need then, is a mobile home next to it.



roflol


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arbie* /forum/post/16054648
> 
> 
> 
> I have one more CM-4221 to modify, and I am wondering if there are better alternatives.




Arbie,


Check out the thread in this forum entitled "how to build a uhf antenna". There are plans for a mclap 10 x 9.5 4-bay that has excellent uhf reception and will acquire high vhf channels. The bays are 9.5 inches apart and the whiskers are 10 inches long. Works very well!



mclapp's info is available here: http://www.frontiernet.net/~mclapp/Antennas/ 


HTH


Rick


----------



## ngarrang




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arbie* /forum/post/16054648
> 
> 
> To improve VHF-HI gain, I replaced the 20" wide 1"x2"
> 
> mesh reflector with a 36" wide 1"x2" mesh reflector. My experiment was a success,
> 
> and I can now receive channel 8 with a Zenith DTT901, although the signal-level is
> 
> very low.



I may have to try this with my DB2 to try and pick-up DTV 10.


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16054853
> 
> 
> roflol



ya, just ya... LOL


----------



## ngarrang

I had another thought come to mind. I am going to try my Winegard SS-3000 antenna up in the attic. It had shown promise in receiving VHF-Hi before I began experimenting with the DB2.


----------



## Konrad2

> metal in a metallic shield is affected by the waves strongly,

> that is why metal is either a good antenna or a shield depending

> on how it is used.


IIRC, I've read complaints about reflections from a water tower.

Presumably grounded metal.


To fully enclose the shield, (to keep the snow, birds, etc. out)

you could try and find a plastic garbage can lid that fits the

metal can. Or fabricate one from fiberglass.


For lighter weight and to avoid the trailer jokes, you

could make the shield (and the antenna itself) from carbon

fiber nanotubes.

http://deviceace.com/science/331/cnt...per-wires.html 


Of course if it is in your attic, no one will see it.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16052312
> 
> 
> Any kind of VHF dipole is better than just a plain old UHF antenna.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And since there isn't any reflector, you should be able to receive stations 180° from each other.
> 
> 
> Of course, a simple yagi will give more gain (ie. Director, Folded Dipole, Reflector).
> 
> 
> Has anyone used a "Grid Yagi" for reception? http://home.comcast.net/~ross_anderson/GridYagi.htm
> 
> 
> Am I right in assuming that it is a narrow band antenna and can be used for good single station reception?



Most Yagi's are designed for narrow band use. Typical "single channel" Yagi's

for TV band only cover about 1 channel (Ch2-6), maybe 3 channels (Ch7-13)

and as many as 6-12 channels (UHF) (fewer at low freqs):
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/WadeSCY.html 
http://www.blondertongue.com/reception/bty.pdf 


I'ld hate to see the damage that beast can cause when a big wind blows through....

And some people complain about the CM4228 being a huge sail....


----------



## systems2000

A friend of mine saw my DBGH the other day and asked about my "Bed Spring" antenna.


----------



## PCTools

These digital channels need to pump up their power output. I am beginning to miss my DX'ing, and trying to capture the Metro Detroit at over 100+ miles is a challenge.


I sure hope I don't talk myself into raising the tower 20' higher. Might go to a quad stack, as this is getting frustrating.


----------



## finlay648

I have stacked 2 CM4228s vertically to improve my reception of stations that are 80-100 mi away. The cm4228s are combined using a 2-way splitter/combiner into a cm7777. My elevation is 1100 ft so I usually get good reception since most stations are LOS but I have some stations that are marginal and I would like to try and improve the signal reception.


I read in the HDTVprimer site that the cm4228 suffers from a bad design for the feedlines connecting the two 4-bay halves. The author suggests replacing the feedlines with two baluns, two identical coax lines and a splitter used as a combiner to reduce the losses. If I wanted to do something like this in my setup would it be better to use two separate 2-way splitters into another 2-way splitter/combiner or one 4-way splitter to combine signals from all four 4-bay sections?


This seems like a one way change since removing the feedlines doesn't seem reversible. Does it make sense to make this kind of mod to the cm4228? I haven't seen a report from anyone who has done this kind of mod so I'm not sure that the basic idea is practical.


Any advice?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *finlay648* /forum/post/16064775
> 
> 
> I read in the HDTVprimer site that the cm4228 suffers from a bad design for the feedlines connecting the two 4-bay halves.
> 
> 
> Any advice?



The author was talking about the new 4228 HD, not the original design.


----------



## rcodey




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *finlay648* /forum/post/16064775
> 
> 
> I have stacked 2 CM4228s vertically to improve my reception of stations that are 80-100 mi away. The cm4228s are combined using a 2-way splitter/combiner into a cm7777. My elevation is 1100 ft so I usually get good reception since most stations are LOS but I have some stations that are marginal and I would like to try and improve the signal reception.
> 
> 
> I read in the HDTVprimer site that the cm4228 suffers from a bad design for the feedlines connecting the two 4-bay halves. The author suggests replacing the feedlines with two baluns, two identical coax lines and a splitter used as a combiner to reduce the losses. If I wanted to do something like this in my setup would it be better to use two separate 2-way splitters into another 2-way splitter/combiner or one 4-way splitter to combine signals from all four 4-bay sections?
> 
> 
> This seems like a one way change since removing the feedlines doesn't seem reversible. Does it make sense to make this kind of mod to the cm4228? I haven't seen a report from anyone who has done this kind of mod so I'm not sure that the basic idea is practical.
> 
> 
> Any advice?



Caution! I stacked two antennas a couple of years ago with info from this site(combiners, equal cable lengths,etc.). Not that the info from here was wrong but most of my signals were worse after stacking. A waste of time and money. It might not be the magic bullet as it can be for others.


----------



## ThoraX695




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ngarrang* /forum/post/16052834
> 
> 
> My DB2 (with reflector) does a good job of picking of Channel 12.1 (digital 12), but doesn't see WCPO-TV Channel 9 (analog 9) or 9.1 (digital 10). It is a UHF antenna, so I am happy that is sees 12 as well as it does.
> 
> 
> Would a DB4 give me a better shot of getting 9.1 without the need of a secondary VHF-only antenna?



Probably not since you're somewhat far from the transmitters in downtown Cincinnati. How does analog 12 look? They're moving their digital signal from RF 31 back to RF 12 in the next few months, so you may lose 12 at that point too.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rcodey* /forum/post/16065630
> 
> 
> Caution! I stacked two antennas a couple of years ago with info from this site(combiners, equal cable lengths,etc.). Not that the info from here was wrong but most of my signals were worse after stacking. A waste of time and money. It might not be the magic bullet as it can be for others.



Unless you've moved recently, your current location is semi-urban and relatively close in to your transmitters. If your goal was to combat multipath then horizontal stacking would have been the way to go and probably unamplified (or at most using a low gain/hi input capability amp). If you stacked vertically, I'm not surprised you didn't see improvement.


----------



## ctdish

The key to getting the expected gain from stacking, as well as doing all in rcodey's post, is to use combiners that have low loss. The small ones sold as splitters lose about as much as the two antennas gain you. The way to get a combiner without as much loss is to use a stripline combiner or for two antennas quarter wave sections of 96 ohm coax into a tee.

In the case of combining four sections a single four way unit is more likely to have less loss than pairs of two into two would give.

John


----------



## ngarrang




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ThoraX695* /forum/post/16065708
> 
> 
> Probably not since you're somewhat far from the transmitters in downtown Cincinnati. How does analog 12 look? They're moving their digital signal from RF 31 back to RF 12 in the next few months, so you may lose 12 at that point too.



Yeah, I noticed that. I am going to pick up a DB4 and a antenna pre-amp to help boost signal even more. My attic doesn't room have the room for a DB8. Well, it might, but the bottom of the antenna would have to sit on the attic floor. If I must, I will use a Winegard CC7870 to combine two highly directional antennas (one to Dayton, one to Cincinnati). But, so far, I have been getting by with the omnidirectional capability of the DB2.


I enjoyed trying to build the antennae myself, but the end result just isn't as good at the commercial products. My amateur antenna building is...amateur.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/16065758
> 
> 
> The key to getting the expected gain from stacking, as well as doing all in rcodey's post, is to use combiners that have low loss. The small ones sold as splitters lose about as much as the two antennas gain you. The way to get a combiner without as much loss is to use a stripline combiner or for two antennas quarter wave sections of 96 ohm coax into a tee.
> 
> In the case of combining four sections a single four way unit is more likely to have less loss than pairs of two into two would give.
> 
> John



What you say is of course true, but it also depends on the goal you are trying to achieve with stacking. If the goal is narrower beamwidth to combat multipath, it may still improve the overall signal even with the combiner loss. In most instances, horizontal stacking will work much better at this (unless the reflections are from above or below).


Using a 4 way wide-band splitter as a quad combiner not only has more loss, it just plain won't work in my experience. Using 3 two-way splitters as combiners does at least work but not as well as a 4-way stripline combiner.


----------



## rcodey




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/16065752
> 
> 
> Unless you've moved recently, your current location is semi-urban and relatively close in to your transmitters. If your goal was to combat multipath then horizontal stacking would have been the way to go and probably unamplified (or at most using a low gain/hi input capability amp). If you stacked vertically, I'm not surprised you didn't see improvement.



I stacked horizontially with the goal to combat multipath. I tried runs w/o an amplifier with bad results. Members at the time said it is not unusual to have my results. I've thought that the best results might be using the two antennas in different hot spot locations( good signals in one location for some channels and good spot for other signals in other location on roof) and just use an A/B switch with remote.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *serndipity* /forum/post/16053425
> 
> 
> I wondered about that as well.
> 
> The folded dipole has a acquired something of a complex web of correct and incorrect information surrounding it.
> 
> 
> L. B. Cebik did a paper to sort out what it is correct to say about the folded dipole.
> 
> http://www.cebik.com/content/a10/wire/fdpl.html
> 
> 
> Note: Use the root URL for free registration to this treasure of antenna information.
> 
> 
> The bottom line was that the folded dipole does not have any more gain than a dipole antenna.



Whoops, my memory is slipping. I went back and checked the model. The Raw gain at 605 Mhz is 2.29 dBi and the SWR is 1.03992. I knew it had that 9 in it somewhere, heh. So its .14 dbi better than a straight dipole.


Here is the Nec File

===============


CM

CE

SY l=0.221 'l = 221mm = 605MHz Folded-Dipole (Mid point of Ch36)

SY y=0.0254

SY h=0.05

SY x=0.0127

GW 1 5 0 -y/2 -h/2 0 y/2 -h/2 0.0015875

GW 2 17 0 -y/2 -h/2 0 -(l/2-x) -h/2 0.0015875

GW 3 17 0 y/2 -h/2 0 l/2-x -h/2 0.0015875

GW 4 4 0 -(l/2-x) -h/2 0 -l/2 -(h/2-x) 0.0015875

GW 5 4 0 l/2-x -h/2 0 l/2 -(h/2-x) 0.0015875

GW 6 5 0 -l/2 -(h/2-x) 0 -l/2 h/2-x 0.0015875

GW 7 5 0 l/2 -(h/2-x) 0 l/2 h/2-x 0.0015875

GW 8 4 0 -l/2 (h/2-x) 0 -(l/2-x) h/2 0.0015875

GW 9 4 0 l/2 (h/2-x) 0 l/2-x h/2 0.0015875

GW 10 40 0 -(l/2-x) h/2 0 l/2-x h/2 0.0015875

GE 0

GN -1

EK

EX 0 1 3 0 1 0

FR 0 0 0 0 605 0

EN



> Quote:
> A friend of mine saw my DBGH the other day and asked about my "Bed Spring" antenna.



I get comments from the neighbors about my space invaders sculptures, heh.


----------



## finlay648




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16065447
> 
> 
> The author was talking about the new 4228 HD, not the original design.



He was talking about the original cm4228:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html


----------



## finlay648




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rcodey* /forum/post/16065630
> 
> 
> Caution! I stacked two antennas a couple of years ago with info from this site(combiners, equal cable lengths,etc.). Not that the info from here was wrong but most of my signals were worse after stacking. A waste of time and money. It might not be the magic bullet as it can be for others.



My experience with the vertically stacked cm4228s is that I got about 2db more gain which allowed me to receive a marginal station more regularly (5% -> 30% of the time). If replacing the feedlines could get me enough to receive the marginal station more regularly (say 75%) then maybe it's worth the trouble. Another idea is to use an ultra low noise preamp like the Research Communications.


----------



## finlay648




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/16065923
> 
> 
> What you say is of course true, but it also depends on the goal you are trying to achieve with stacking. If the goal is narrower beamwidth to combat multipath, it may still improve the overall signal even with the combiner loss. In most instances, horizontal stacking will work much better at this (unless the reflections are from above or below).
> 
> 
> Using a 4 way wide-band splitter as a quad combiner not only has more loss, it just plain won't work in my experience. Using 3 two-way splitters as combiners does at least work but not as well as a 4-way stripline combiner.



Where can I get a 4-way stripline combiner?


John


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *finlay648* /forum/post/16067727
> 
> 
> Where can I get a 4-way stripline combiner?
> 
> 
> John



Lindsay used to sell/make them but no more.


Here's the "new" source:

http://www.hamtv.com/oal.html 


Be sure to specify the frequency band and 75 ohm connection.


Pic below courtesy of MaxHD.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rcodey* /forum/post/16066337
> 
> 
> I stacked horizontially with the goal to combat multipath. I tried runs w/o an amplifier with bad results. Members at the time said it is not unusual to have my results. I've thought that the best results might be using the two antennas in different hot spot locations( good signals in one location for some channels and good spot for other signals in other location on roof) and just use an A/B switch with remote.



Properly done, horizontal stacking should provide higher gain and narrower beamwidth. This means higher performance assuming no other mitigating factors and you are setup/aimed properly. Therefore, I would heartily disagree with the "members" that poorer performance resulting from horizontal stacking would not be unusual. I think it would be very unusual and I suspect something was not set up properly.


It's like saying you put up a CM 4221 and it outperformed a CM4228.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Properly done, horizontal stacking should provide higher gain and narrower beamwidth.



With horizontal stacking, depending on the stacking distance, you can induce lobes that can take away from the main direct forward lobe, hence the seemingly poor performance. With vertical stacking, you dont have that problem.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html


----------



## nicoge21




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/16058175
> 
> 
> These digital channels need to pump up their power output. I am beginning to miss my DX'ing, and trying to capture the Metro Detroit at over 100+ miles is a challenge.
> 
> 
> I sure hope I don't talk myself into raising the tower 20' higher. Might go to a quad stack, as this is getting frustrating.



The FCC has severely limited the power of digital signals. People living any longer distance from the broadcast antenna can’t make their converter boxes or expensive new TV’s work. If the FCC had allowed the digital signals to be just as strong as the analogs, anyone with even marginal analog reception would have been able to get crystal clear digital stations. The exceptions would include those who were watching analog stations with visible “ghosts”. It isn’t right to be robbing rural viewers of free tv IMO.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16068547
> 
> 
> With horizontal stacking, depending on the stacking distance, you can induce lobes that can take away from the main direct forward lobe, hence the seemingly poor performance. With vertical stacking, you dont have that problem.
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html



Hence, the wording "properly done". As spacing increases, the forward gain increases but you also increase the side lobe gain. Even wider, and the forward lobe can actually be less than the side lobes and the side lobes can multiply. What you typically want is a large forward lobe, deep adjacent null, and sidelobes that aren't so large as to interfere with the signal. Experimentation with spacing may be necessary to find the best balance overall in a particular location/installation.


I don't see why it would be any different with vertical stacking. You'd simply induce vertical lobes instead.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/16058175
> 
> 
> I sure hope I don't talk myself into raising the tower 20' higher.



It might not be enough.


I've got my 4228 at 125' and still didn't get anything from Burlington, VT.


----------



## systems2000

That must be one heck of a climb for maintenance.


----------



## rcodey




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/16070221
> 
> 
> Hence, the wording "properly done". As spacing increases, the forward gain increases but you also increase the side lobe gain. Even wider, and the forward lobe can actually be less than the side lobes and the side lobes can multiply. What you typically want is a large forward lobe, deep adjacent null, and sidelobes that aren't so large as to interfere with the signal. Experimentation with spacing may be necessary to find the best balance overall in a particular location/installation.
> 
> 
> I don't see why it would be any different with vertical stacking. You'd simply induce vertical lobes instead.



Believe the spacing I used was 36" on the Televes.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/16068049
> 
> 
> Lindsay used to sell/make them but no more.
> 
> 
> Here's the "new" source:
> 
> http://www.hamtv.com/oal.html
> 
> 
> Be sure to specify the frequency band and 75 ohm connection.
> 
> 
> Pic below courtesy of MaxHD.


*Re LOW-LOSS STRIPLINE COUPLERS:*


None of those covered any part of the TV bands.....

Can you order a stripline combiner for the entire UHF band...and/or Hi-VHF?


Telewave (San Jose, CA) stocks PARTIAL UHF BAND (Ch14-35) 2/3/4-port

stripline combiners (ANTPD24=$135, ANTPD34=$202, ANTPD44=$218):
http://www.tessco.com/products/displ...98&eventPage=1 
http://www.hol4g.com/ac/product.aspx...163774&sc=3634 
http://www.hol4g.com/ac/product.aspx...159829&sc=3634 
http://www.tessco.com/products/displ...=4&eventPage=1 

[About 8.5-inches long....]


Telewave also sells on-line, see entire line here...note UHF band gap:
http://www.telewave.com/pricelist/powerdiv.html 
http://www.telewave.com/pdf/Telewave_Pricelist_2008.pdf 

Perhaps they have some additional products???


Kathrein/Scala also makes PD2-LLN, PD3-LLN and PD4-LLN stripline combiners,

but they only operate on UHF Ch14-19...perhaps they have another suitable product???


===================================

Telewave stocks Hi-VHF (except Ch13) 2/3/4-port stripline combiners

(ANTPD21=$149, ANTPD31=$210, ANTPD41=$224):
http://www.hol4g.com/ac/product.aspx...161679&sc=3634 
http://www.hol4g.com/ac/product.aspx...166385&sc=3634 
http://www.hol4g.com/ac/product.aspx...170482&sc=3634 

[About 8.5-inches long....]maybe they can extend it for Ch13???]


====================================

Telewave stocks ANTPD208 (2-port, $200) CH4-6 Lo-VHF stripline combiner:
http://www.hol4g.com/ac/product.aspx...168682&sc=3634 

ANTPD308 (3-port, $241) and ANTPD408 (4-port, $263) also available.

[Nearly 40-inches long....]


And even the Telewave ANTPD206 (2-ports, $235) for the Ch2-4 Lo-VHF band:
http://www.telewave.com/pdf/TWDS-7099.pdf 

[About 51-inches long....]


====================================

Triax (in U.K.) makes full-band UHF as well as Hi-VHF combiners (see pg59):
http://www.triax.co.uk/upload/gb_-_t...atalogue_2008_ [screen]_001.pdf

You'll have to email them to find a distributor (prob. in U.K.):
http://www.triax.co.uk/ServiceSuppor...tributors.aspx 

But I have not seen any confirmation that they are truly STRIPLINE couplers

and they are no longer available at the usual U.K. retail websites, and can not

be found via SEARCH at Triax website.....


====================================

From the pictures you should be able to readily identify a low-loss stripline

combiner by the extended LENGTH.....and PRICE....


Anything the size of a typical $2 splitter/combiner may claim 0.5 dB loss...

but inside it's a hybrid transformer which will have 3 dB additional loss

when used as a splitter (unlike a stripline) and will suffer from gain & phase

MISMATCH losses when used as a combiner (unlike a stripline).


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I don't see why it would be any different with vertical stacking. You'd simply induce vertical lobes instead.



Correct, and nobody cares about the up and down direction, heh.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I've got my 4228 at 125' and still didn't get anything from Burlington, VT.



Holy moley, heh.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16071018
> 
> 
> That must be one heck of a climb for maintenance.



Some people jog. I climb my tower.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16072450
> 
> *Re LOW-LOSS STRIPLINE COUPLERS:*
> 
> 
> None of those covered any part of the TV bands.....
> 
> Can you order a stripline combiner for the entire UHF band...and/or Hi-VHF?



Yes. They will make to order. The pic I attached is a wide band uhf model.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16072506
> 
> 
> Correct, and nobody cares about the up and down direction, heh.



Well, that's the whole point really. Vertical stacking narrows beamwidth in the vertical plane and can thus create vertical side-lobes/nulls. Horizontal stacking narrows the beamwidth in the horizontal plane and in the process horizontal side lobes/nulls are created.


If you look at a CM4221 it is 4 vertically stacked bowties. Forward gain is decent and beamwidth is fairly large. A CM4228 is basically two horizontally stacked 4221's. A 4228 will have both horizontal and vertical sidelobes but will also have narrower horizontal beamwidth and higher forward gain than a 4221.


----------



## systems2000

I've gotten very comfortable wrapping my leg through my 40' tower, so as to have two hands free. When I work at the very top, I wrap a rope around me (four or five times) and tie it off on the tower (like a cradle). I feel like a baby in it's mothers arms.










I don't think I'll have any trouble with 60', when I get the other sections.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16073241
> 
> 
> I don't think I'll have any trouble with 60', when I get the other sections.



Did you run your tvfool prediction at 60' and compare it to your 40' data? You may find less difference than you expect.


----------



## Jim Miller




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16073241
> 
> 
> I've gotten very comfortable wrapping my leg through my 40' tower, so as to have two hands free. When I work at the very top, I wrap a rope around me (four or five times) and tie it off on the tower (like a cradle). I feel like a baby in it's mothers arms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think I'll have any trouble with 60', when I get the other sections.



Body parts aren't very reliable for support. A wasp flying up your pant leg might cause you to do some very unsafe things.


Always use a safety strap...always...


jtm


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jim Miller* /forum/post/16073416
> 
> 
> A wasp flying up your pant leg might cause you to do some very unsafe things.



I ran across a wasp nest inside a rotator once. It's no fun getting caught off guard up on the roof.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> you look at a CM4221 it is 4 vertically stacked bowties. Forward gain is decent and beamwidth is fairly large. A CM4228 is basically two horizontally stacked 4221's. A 4228 will have both horizontal and vertical sidelobes but will also have narrower horizontal beamwidth and higher forward gain than a 4221.



Yep, Ive modeled all that crap, heh.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> ran across a wasp nest inside a rotator once. It's no fun getting caught off guard up on the roof.



You wuss. Thats nothing compared to a hornets nest, heh.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16073526
> 
> 
> You wuss. Thats nothing compared to a hornets nest, heh.



Thank god they make a bigger nest.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Some people jog. I climb my tower.



OK, since youre that kind of an insane antenna hobbyist (in my own vain), why dont you build one of my Quad Double Bay GHs designs and see what you get, heh.


If you die installing it, IT IS NOT MY FAULT. (disclaimer)


Also the standard disclaimer, do not install when drunk and dont throw antenna at spouse, heh.


----------



## systems2000

While installing a Primestar system, I trenched open a Yellow Jack nest. They don't quit! No matter how far you run.


I then came across a mud wasp nest under the porch. Then, when I opened the phone demark, I found a Paper Wasp nest. It was a bad day.


----------



## systems2000

What's up with the http://www.TVFool.com/ website, since Feb. 17th? The pre-transition reports are all wacked. Were the reports not adjusted for the change?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/16073573
> 
> 
> Thank god they make a bigger nest.



But the distance you have to maintain is far, far greater, heh.


----------



## systems2000

When I go to 60', I get WVPY-DT as an LOS (instead of single-edge), and a minimum of 1dB gain for all of the non-LOS stations (Altoona, Harrisburg-York-Lancaster, Baltimore, and D.C.). Several stations are 1.5dB gain, with a couple giving me 2.5dB of gain.


----------



## systems2000

My Bumble Bees (Wood Boring Bees) keep the Wasps at bay.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rcodey* /forum/post/16071364
> 
> 
> Believe the spacing I used was 36" on the Televes.




57 inches was what I arrived upon after multiple experimentation. It also happens to be the recommended horizontal stacking distance from the manufacturer:
http://www.televes.com/hojastecnicas/103758.pdf 


It is also the distance you come up with when using this calculator: http://www.astronwireless.com/topic-...i-antennas.asp 


At that width, a rotator is nearly mandatory for proper aiming as the beamwidth is around +/- 5 degrees or even less.


FYI Televes re-worked the DAT75 a couple of years ago. If you happened to get two different antennas (or two different baluns) then phasing would be impossible without accounting for it. The PCB baluns are different b/w the models and the internal trace length differs by about 5.5 inches IIRC. The later model has a much larger reflector.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16073946
> 
> 
> My Bumble Bees (Wood Boring Bees) keep the Wasps at bay.



Ahh, you have cedar boards around. They love that !


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16070897
> 
> 
> It might not be enough.
> 
> 
> I've got my 4228 at 125' and still didn't get anything from Burlington, VT.



Tower Guy, what tower have you got? Any pictures?


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jim Miller* /forum/post/16073416
> 
> 
> Body parts aren't very reliable for support. A wasp flying up your pant leg might cause you to do some very unsafe things.
> 
> 
> Always use a safety strap...always...
> 
> 
> jtm



Agreed, I bought a full body harness, positioning strap, and a "Y" lanyard with large caribeaners for the climb up... 100% attachment... I messaged with Riley, the host of World's Toughest Fixes and he said, even at 25-30ft AGL, one should ALWAYS practice 100% attachment.... (people think that 2000ft is soo much more dangerous, then 35ft, but a fall from 30+ft, will prolly be ones last...)


----------



## ngarrang

125'? Where would one live to be able to put a 125' tower in their backyard?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Any pictures?



Yeah really. I got about a 100ft sequioa nearby that Im considering mounting my antennas on. But a 125ft tower beats me, heh. It will take a good five more years to get to that height.


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16077372
> 
> 
> heh. It will take a good five more years to get to that height.



rofl


----------



## ngarrang

So, where is the point of diminishing returns on the number of bow-ties in a vertical stack? With that 100' sequoia, you could mount a DB32? Or an 8-high GH?







Or maybe mount one antenna per channel specifically designed just for that channel and gobs of channel isolaters.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* /forum/post/16077300
> 
> 
> Tower Guy, what tower have you got? Any pictures?



It's 120' of Rohn 45. The rotor is on old Ham-m. The feedline is 3/4" jacketed CATV hardline.


----------



## ngarrang

I just did a google search for Rohn 45 towers. Wow! I could never climb that thing to the top.


----------



## systems2000

.750" coax! I'll bet you had fun mounting that to 125'. I use to install that stuff for data communications and CATV systems. Do you use a drill to prep or do you use hand tools?


My tower is made by American Tower and is considered a step tower (some call it a ladder tower). There's plenty of area for locking myself in. I use pouches for small items and rope to raise larger items. I was tower qualified with the Army in the 80's.

http://www.amertower.com/residential_towers.html 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...PROD=AMERTOW40


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16077845
> 
> 
> .750" coax! I'll bet you had fun mounting that to 125'.



I used my garden tractor (Bolens G154) and 3/8" nylon rope to pull it up. I hold the tag line while driving in reverse. The 10' tower sections went up the same way.


I also have an electric winch with 1/8" aircraft cable, but the garden tractor is easier.


The end prep of the 3/4" hardline was done by hand.


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16077993
> 
> 
> I used my garden tractor (Bolens G154) and 3/8" nylon rope to pull it up. I hold the tag line while driving in reverse. The 10' tower sections went up the same way.
> 
> 
> I also have an electric winch with 1/8" aircraft cable, but the garden tractor is easier.
> 
> 
> The end prep of the 3/4" hardline was done by hand.



Very cool, ya, the weight of a section of Rohn 45, would suck for install... I will do my first guyed tower with 25G, just to get in the hang of it... (pun intended)


So, what do you all have up there?


Also, curious, what safety system do you use?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16073581
> 
> 
> OK, since youre that kind of an insane antenna hobbyist (in my own vain), why dont you build one of my Quad Double Bay GHs designs and see what you get, heh.



Actually I'm trying for more gain than that.


I also need an extremely high front to side ratio to eliminate interference. In my head I've designed a 12' X 8' plane parabolic. The gain will be about mid to high 20 db. The feed would be four bow ties in a row at the focal line of the parabola. I'm working on how to construct the feed.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* /forum/post/16078120
> 
> 
> Very cool, ya, the weight of a section of Rohn 45, would suck for install... I will do my first guyed tower with 25G, just to get in the hang of it... (pun intended)



The big boys call tower building "hanging steel".


I've got my ham radio antennas on my towers.


At 6'5", I'm tall enough to put up 10' tower sections without a gin pole.


----------



## andytiedye




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16077372
> 
> 
> Yeah really. I got about a 100ft sequioa nearby that Im considering mounting my antennas on.



How are you planning to mount them?


----------



## rcodey




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/16075444
> 
> 
> 57 inches was what I arrived upon after multiple experimentation. It also happens to be the recommended horizontal stacking distance from the manufacturer:
> http://www.televes.com/hojastecnicas/103758.pdf
> 
> 
> It is also the distance you come up with when using this calculator: http://www.astronwireless.com/topic-...i-antennas.asp
> 
> 
> At that width, a rotator is nearly mandatory for proper aiming as the beamwidth is around +/- 5 degrees or even less.
> 
> 
> FYI Televes re-worked the DAT75 a couple of years ago. If you happened to get two different antennas (or two different baluns) then phasing would be impossible without accounting for it. The PCB baluns are different b/w the models and the internal trace length differs by about 5.5 inches IIRC. The later model has a much larger reflector.



They are the same Televes. Shouldn't the closer spacing eliminate the potential problems that I encountered?


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16078573
> 
> 
> The big boys call tower building "hanging steel".



Cool, I have not been around "the big boys" yet, I hope to make the right friends.. Although Riley from World's Toughest Fixes, does not mind talking with viewers...


> Quote:
> I've got my ham radio antennas on my towers.



Cool, was wondering if you were a ham.


> Quote:
> At 6'5", I'm tall enough to put up 10' tower sections without a gin pole.



Oh, wow, even at 6.5', I would have thought it would have been a pain at 70lbs for Rohn 45G (if the Rohn spec page is correct on weights)


Is this just as a hobby, or do you do tower work professionally?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *andytiedye* /forum/post/16078699
> 
> 
> How are you planning to mount them?



Using very large U staples. Or a couple of holes in the mast to put lag bolts thru. As you can see, the sequioa is a pretty easy tree to climb.


----------



## scottndsky

Interesting Article in Communications Technology today:

http://www.cable360.net/ct/news/ctre...ted_34612.html 


Enjoy,

Scott


----------



## finlay648




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16080414
> 
> 
> Using very large U staples. Or a couple of holes in the mast to put lag bolts thru. As you can see, the sequioa is a pretty easy tree to climb.



Would you top the tree and put a mast with the antenna on it or just mount the antenna directly to the tree? Wouldn't the swaying of the tree in a storm cause problems? How would the tree's growth affect the mounting over time?


I have some large fir trees that I considered mounting an antenna on but haven't seen any info on how to do that.


John


----------



## 300ohm

Yeah you could top it, the firs and sequoia will still grow. The further down the tree, the less the sway. I imagine that the trees growth would bend the mast or pop out the lag screws over time, so it will have to be periodically remounted.


I have seen farmers plant firs about 2 feet apart, then topping them, to form a really nice cow fence / hedge in a few years time.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scottndsky* /forum/post/16080463
> 
> 
> Interesting Article in Communications Technology today:
> 
> http://www.cable360.net/ct/news/ctre...ted_34612.html
> 
> 
> Enjoy,
> 
> Scott





> Quote:
> The FCC digital migration has also redefined the spectrum that channels will be broadcast - from channels 2-69 to 7-69. While this may seem like a small change, its impact on reducing the length of elements required on a traditional rooftop antenna is significant. Eliminating channels 2-6 removes the longest elements on traditional antennas and thus reduces the impact of strong winds and ice on the equipment.
> 
> 
> As a result, much shorter antenna elements are needed to receive channels 7-69. (This translates into a reduction in rooftop antenna width from 110 inches to 53.5 inches).



From channels 2-69 to 7-69 ? When did that happen instead of 2 - 51 ? My latest TVFool still shows that Ill have a channel 6 after June.

I really would like 7 - 69 instead of 2 - 51.


----------



## hdtvluvr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16081027
> 
> 
> From channels 2-69 to 7-69 ? When did that happen instead of 2 - 51 ? My latest TVFool still shows that Ill have a channel 6 after June.
> 
> I really would like 7 - 69 instead of 2 - 51.



Channel 5 in Memphis will stay on 5 in June. When did the FCC change their mind?


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rcodey* /forum/post/16078749
> 
> 
> They are the same Televes. Shouldn't the closer spacing eliminate the potential problems that I encountered?



The closer spacing will give you a wider main forward lobe and much smaller sidelobes. It will also give you less of a deep adjacent null. Wider spacing narrows the main forward lobe, increased the depth of the nulls, but also increases the sidelobes somewhat.


Narrower spacing can make it easier to "catch" Dx signals with the broader beamwidth.


Wider spacing provides the increased directivity needed to combat multipath and also eek out that last bit of gain on a distant signal. The disadvantage is that the extreme narrow beamwidth makes accurate aiming mandatory. A windy day that throws the stack off by only a few degrees could ruin the signal, thus a rotator is needed.


You might double-check the balun numbers on the DATs if you still have them. It's at least possible that the baluns could be mismatched.


----------



## rcodey

Thanks for the advice. As soon as it gets warmer I'll go up the ladder, check the baluns and maybe increase the spacing.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16081027
> 
> 
> From channels 2-69 to 7-69 ? When did that happen instead of 2 - 51 ? My latest TVFool still shows that Ill have a channel 6 after June.
> 
> I really would like 7 - 69 instead of 2 - 51.



Obviously, the CommTech writer (or his editor) was WRONG!!!


The FCC allowed stations to chose to operate on Ch2-6, if they want to.

What is REALLY happening is only 41 stations in U.S. actually chose Ch2-6:
http://www.rabbitears.info/ss/ 

That's 7 on Ch2, 7 on Ch3, 2 on Ch4, 16 on Ch5 and only 9 on Ch6. So there

is a market for Ch7-13 and Ch7-51 antennas.....in ADDITION to Ch2+ monsters....


In California, the ONLY Ch2-6 DTV is Ch3 in Eureka (near Oregon border).


This could increase when low power DTV station assignments sort out....

Hmm, much lower monthly electricity bill and lots of excess equipment

to chose from at the surplus sales....


And maybe "White Space Devices" will be forced to reconsider Lo-VHF, esp.

for those metro areas that don't HAVE any extra UHF channels....


And it's possible Ch6 is opened to expand FM band....except for perhaps 9 DMAs...


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* /forum/post/16080124
> 
> 
> Is this just as a hobby, or do you do tower work professionally?



Just a hobby.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> And it's possible Ch6 is opened to expand FM band....except for perhaps 9 DMAs...



Also a good idea. I just want my channel 6 to go to a higher channel number and I dont really care how they do it, heh. Its such an oddball pain for me.


My gut feeling is that these vhf-low stations are holding out for a better deal from the FCC, heh.



> Quote:
> Obviously, the CommTech writer (or his editor) was WRONG!!!



You would think that someone in the field like that would get it right. Its not that hard, heh. Wheres he getting his technical info from, the YouTube antenna guy ?? Heh, heh.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16077604
> 
> 
> It's 120' of Rohn 45. The rotor is on old Ham-m. The feedline is 3/4" jacketed CATV hardline.



Only 120 ft ? In that case I may be up there in only 4 years, heh.


----------



## systems2000

Does anyone know anything about the Alliance Tenna-Rotor? Are they any good?


I've come across one and I noticed that it has four terminals.


----------



## nukeboy67




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/3577126
> 
> 
> If you need a preamp, go ahead and get a VHF+UHF preamp , with a dedicated VHF input. That will make it easy to add a separate VHF antenna later.



do you know what this antenna is


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nukeboy67* /forum/post/16089241
> 
> 
> do you know what this antenna is



Looks like a Radio Shack VU-90(Channels 2-69 )


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Looks like a Radio Shack VU-90(Channels 2-69 )



Yep, that would be my guess too.




> Quote:
> Does anyone know anything about the Alliance Tenna-Rotor? Are they any good?
> 
> 
> I've come across one and I noticed that it has four terminals.



I still have mine I bought around 1973, and its still working. Ive gotta get around to replacing the five wire cable though, cause its bare in some places, heh. Ive rebuilt and regreased it a few times. Mostly what goes bad from age in it is the non-polarized electrolytic capactor. Its a very simple circuit.

Since you have the four wire one, that means you probably dont have a needle that tells you the direction.


----------



## systems2000

What kind of controller does it use? All I have is the rotor.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16089921
> 
> 
> What kind of controller does it use? All I have is the rotor.



With the 4 wire model, I believe it used the "clicker" type rotator. My parents had that one in the 50's. You would dial it for the direction you wanted (after the rotor was initially aligned with the right compass point) and it would click step by step until it reached that point. The click was fairly loud, heh.


With my compass needle model, you have to hold the button down (either to the left side or the right depending on the direction you want to go) until it gets to the desired direction. Its quiet.


----------



## dewster1977




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16088927
> 
> 
> Does anyone know anything about the Alliance Tenna-Rotor? Are they any good?
> 
> 
> I've come across one and I noticed that it has four terminals.



There are different models of the 4-wire tenna-rotor T10, T12, U98, U100 and U110. Are there any numbers on the rotor, or what color is the weather boot on the top. I may have a controller here.


----------



## 300ohm

Good point about the model number. I went out and checked mine. I have a model T-45.



> Quote:
> There are different models of the 4-wire tenna-rotor T10, T12, U98, U100 and U110.



On the inside of the rotor itself, its just straight wiring to the motor and ground, IIRC. So its likely any of those 4 wire control boxes would work. (Worse case scenario, in reverse)


And the way you wire it up is, one wire in the flat wire group is silver and the others are copper. The silver went on 1 and the rest of the numbers followed what was stamped on the rotor and the control box.


----------



## systems2000

There isn't a weather boot on the rotor. I did see the numbers "02 79" stamped on the bottom of the case. Unfortunately, I don't see any other numbers (except the patent number on the name plate).


Under the cover plate (in really bad shape) for the terminals, there are numbers stamped on the edge.


Upper Left: 1

Upper Right: 2

Lower left: 3

Lower Right: 4


The rotor has six screws holding the case together.


----------



## ngarrang

For my location (45056), a reflectorless DB2 is netting me the most digital channels: 24.


I tried a DB1, DB2 and DB4, each with and without reflector panel, each with and without the pre-amp I picked up from solid signal. The one constant was my 28db amplified distributor and my Vizio TV.


So, until I install the J-pole from my previous satellite dish on the roof and go external, the DB2 without reflector and no pre-amp gets me 24 digital channels.


I am in an odd location with Dayton stations being at 51 degrees (average) and Cinci being at 166 degrees (average). In any config, I don't want to use a rotator. Two TVs will eventually be attached to this antenna.


I found it odd that the DB4 lost 22.1 and 45.1/45.2 compared to the DB2 in identical set-up. It must be reflections aiding my reception.


Thus, I am done for the now with the attic experiments. Time to clean up all my antenna gear! The wife has been giving me strange looks regarding my pile-o-antenna.


----------



## dewster1977




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16091917
> 
> 
> There isn't a weather boot on the rotor. I did see the numbers "02 79" stamped on the bottom of the case. Unfortunately, I don't see any other numbers (except the patent number on the name plate).
> 
> 
> Under the cover plate (in really bad shape) for the terminals, there are numbers stamped on the edge.
> 
> 
> Upper Left: 1
> 
> Upper Right: 2
> 
> Lower left: 3
> 
> Lower Right: 4
> 
> 
> The rotor has six screws holding the case together.



I may have an Alliance manual somewhere. I will see if I can find it.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Under the cover plate (in really bad shape) for the terminals



Those will definately need to be cleaned up or replaced.


----------



## 300ohm

Heh, Norms a little pricey, isnt he. Interesting, the instructions say silver wire on terminal 3, (ground ?) instead of on terminal 1, like I use.


Yeah, my parents had the U-100/110 "clunk clunk" control box plus a double bay vhf bowtie antenna, (single bay shown in the instructions). And its always been HDTV ready, heh.


I think I only paid $23 to $29 for my Alliance unit new back in the 70's. The two downlead from two separate antennas into an A-B switch is a much faster solution for me. The "clunk clunk" control box probably slows the rotor down to 1/3 rpm from its max speed of 1 rpm.


Yeah, the things should last forever with a periodic servicing and replacement of that elec cap. Its pretty easy to service. IIRC, the motor in the rotor is the same as used in old phonograph turntables. My gears werent hardly worn at all.


----------



## systems2000

The fork spade ends are still on the rotor I have and it looks like the silver fork spade is on terminal #3. I did notice that the rotor is stamped with 1 rpm.


----------



## cat lady

I have had this problem happen to me twice now, and I am not exactly sure what caused the problem, so I will try to explain in detail what we did, and what the results were, and how the problem was addressed. But my main question is, why it happened in the first place, because I would like to be able to recognize the situation, and to be able to avoid it in the first place...


First scenario: I have a friend who lives out west of Beaumont, Texas. He bought a RS VU-190 antenna and a RS pre-amp. We installed the antenna up about 36 feet, and when we hooked it up to the converter box or straight to the TV, we got absolutely no channels whatsoever. The tuner was blanked out, like it was overloaded. When the antenna was pointed at 90 degrees to where the local stations were, we were able to get the full power stations on the converter box, but the antenna had to be pointed backwards to get the analogs on the TV.

On the advice of someone I know, I bought a 3dB pad to install before going into the A/B switch so that my friend could toggle back and forth between analog and the converter box. This helped, but he was not able to recieve the digital LP station and still can't.

I originally blamed this on the RS pre-amp and internal noise causing the overload. He lives about 15-20 miles from any full power TV transmitters.


Second scenario: I have a co-worker who lives in the Lake Charles, Louisiana area. Thinking that the RS pre-amp was the cause of the overloading in the original antenna project, I advised him to get a CM 7777 pre-amp. Installation went perfectly. No tuner overload. multiple stations from 3 DMAs from about 30 feet up. He wants to do the same for his dad who lives about a mile from him.


Third scenario: My co-workers dad buys the same set-up. RS VU-190 antenna and CM 7777 pre-amp. 30 feet up.

Hook it up to the converter box... nothing. Nada. Zilch. Take the amp out, locals come in fine, but no distant stations.

His dad decides that the original location for the pole does not suit him, so my co-worker decides to move the antenna to the other side of the house. In the new location, he decides to install the CM 7777 pre-amp back on the antenna, and voila, no overload. Beautiful signals from multiple stations in 3 DMAs.


So... What the heck gives??? Why the overload. No nearby TV or DT transmitters. FM trap in. How do I avoid all the trouble and work of installing an anteanna only to have the tuner blank out? I'm a little gun shy now. Two other installations that I have consulted on went well, one at 16 feet and one at 25 feet.

We are fixing to do one at 20 feet for a friend who lives a couple of miles from my friend in scenario one.

Can onyone give me some insight on what may have caused the tuner overload? I would like any information that might be pertinent. I would like to know what to look for.Thanks.


----------



## Falcon_77

What do the TV Fool plots look like in each location?


I would avoid high-gain pre-amps, such as the CM7777 in any area that has signals in the green on TV Fool, unless you don't need to point the antenna in the direction of those stations.


TV transmitters at 15-20 miles are rather close, especially if you have LOS.


Do you need Low-VHF? Most areas do not need Low-VHF for DTV and that might save you some headaches. A 7-51 antenna is less cumbersome as well.


----------



## systems2000

Take a look at the last link below. Then follow the link to "Erecting A TV Antenna."


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I did notice that the rotor is stamped with 1 rpm.



Yeah, Ive never seen an ad for a rotor faster than 1 rpm. Speed demons they are not, heh.


----------



## ngarrang




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16102048
> 
> 
> Yeah, Ive never seen an ad for a rotor faster than 1 rpm. Speed demons they are not, heh.



Do you really want a rotor whipping an LP antenna around quickly? Maybe a DB, they seem fairly durable.







One of my DB2's has proven to be 3-yr old resistant.


----------



## 300ohm

Personally I do, because waiting 20 or 30 seconds can seen like an eternity, heh. Thats why I like the two antennas, two downleads into an A-B switch solution so much.


----------



## MikeBiker

I can understand that rotors designed for the large 2-69 band antennas would need to move the antenna slowly, but the UHF only and 7-51 antennas are significantly smaller and could be moved at higher speeds. A 3 RPM rotor could certainly work well with the small antennas are take only 10 seconds to do an 180 degree turn.


----------



## cat lady




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/16100777
> 
> 
> What do the TV Fool plots look like in each location?
> 
> 
> I would avoid high-gain pre-amps, such as the CM7777 in any area that has signals in the green on TV Fool, unless you don't need to point the antenna in the direction of those stations.
> 
> 
> TV transmitters at 15-20 miles are rather close, especially if you have LOS.
> 
> 
> Do you need Low-VHF? Most areas do not need Low-VHF for DTV and that might save you some headaches. A 7-51 antenna is less cumbersome as well.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16100781
> 
> 
> Take a look at the last link below. Then follow the link to "Erecting A TV Antenna."



Thanks guys. After studying links provided, I think that the problem in both of the problem cases was due to short delay multi-path. This would be confirmed by the move of my co-workers dad's antenna to another location, thus accomplishing the desired reception of the local and distant signals. We have lots of trees around here, and in both cases, there were trees prosent, and in the Beaumont case, the land next to my friend's house is heavily wooded. I call it the hundred acre woods. So that is what I need to look for before installing antennas.

Thank you so much for pointing me in the right direction.


----------



## ngarrang

For grins, I was using one of the many on-line tools for calculating the lengths for a LP/Yagi capable of 20db gain for channel 2.










The boom length came out to 127 feet. I lost count of the number of directors.


----------



## PCTools

I would like to stack two of those...












> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ngarrang* /forum/post/16110582
> 
> 
> For grins, I was using one of the many on-line tools for calculating the lengths for a LP/Yagi capable of 20db gain for channel 2.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The boom length came out to 127 feet. I lost count of the number of directors.


----------



## ngarrang




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/16112154
> 
> 
> I would like to stack two of those...



You have a station 150 miles away you want to receive?










My yard is slightly longer than 127 feet. Let's see...I could top my backyard tree and plant this monster antenna on there. Where to set the guide wires, though, to stop it from becoming a twisted spear of God?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> You have a station 150 miles away you want to receive?



Probably not. He just wants to annoy the neighbors.


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ngarrang* /forum/post/16112295
> 
> 
> You have a station 150 miles away you want to receive?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My yard is slightly longer than 127 feet. Let's see...I could top my backyard tree and plant this monster antenna on there. Where to set the guide wires, though, to stop it from becoming a twisted spear of God?



2 of these at 150ft AGL, would be FANTASTIC!


----------



## 300ohm

You could string a net between the two antennas, and catch bats at night.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ngarrang* /forum/post/16110582
> 
> 
> For grins, I was using one of the many on-line tools for calculating the lengths for a LP/Yagi capable of 20db gain for channel 2.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The boom length came out to 127 feet. I lost count of the number of directors.



4 antennas with 15 db each would do the same thing and be more manageable.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16115538
> 
> 
> 4 antennas with 15 db each would do the same thing and be more manageable.



Even at 15 dB, that would still be a big antenna. However, such things exist. Here's a 50 MHz antenna with 14 dBd gain on a 69 foot boom.

http://www.m2inc.com/products/6m/6m11jkv.html 


Ron


----------



## 300ohm

Code:


Code:


SPECIFICATIONS
Model
 6M11JKV
 
Frequency range 49.9-50.5 MHz 
Usuable Frequency Range 49.6 TO 50.75 MHz
 
Gain over a Dipole 14 dBd 
Front to back, Typical >21 dB 
Beamwidth degrees E=28° / H=39° 
FIRST SIDELOBE -18 dB 
STACKING (HORIZ POL) 38' W, 36' H
 
Feed impedance
 50 OHM
 
VSWR
 1.2:1
 
Input Connector
 'N' Female 
Balun Half Wave 4:1, supplied 
Power Handling
 1500 WATTS 
Element Type 3/4" Tube W 7/8" Center Sleeve 
Boom length and diameter 69' / 2" / 2", 2-1/2" & 3" X 36" CNTR 
Wind Area / Survival 10.7 SQ. FT. / 100 MPH 
Weight / ShipWt.
 83 LBS. / 95 LBS, Truck or air

Heh, heh. And thats only 1 of 4, heh. And thats 14dbd, 16.15 dbi for each one. Figure another 2.5 dbi stacking two, then 5 dbi stacking all four for about 21.15 dbi.


----------



## The Hound

69' long damn!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> 69' long damn!



Also at 50mhz, the stacking distance is large too. So maybe figure it needs to be 69 ft high for all four. Then of course it wont work well close to the ground, so youll need a good 100 ft tower to mount it on too, heh.


If youre going to go that insane, you might as well have a 60 meter in diameter parabola dish built, heh.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16119394
> 
> 
> Also at 50mhz, the stacking distance is large too. So maybe figure it needs to be 69 ft high for all four.



There is an aspect of the problem that is easily overlooked when comparing antenna gains and heights. Antennas on channel 2 interact with the ground to steer the main beam upwards. Tvfool doesn't include that factor in their data. Tvfool does assume that there is more signal when the antenna is raised, but that is based on statistics and not the specifics of a particular antenna's interaction with the ground.


If the ground in front of the antenna is flat and you would like to get the main beam aimed exactly at the transmitter antenna, extra tower height adds significantly. At reasonable antenna heights it's 1 db per each 5' of tower height. If the ground in front of the antenna slopes downward, there is an optimum height where the ground interaction adds approximately 6 db to the gain of the antenna.


Therefore, a single 14 db gain antenna at the optimum height with downward sloping ground in front of the antenna would actually have 20 db gain.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> If the ground in front of the antenna slopes downward, there is an optimum height where the ground interaction adds approximately 6 db to the gain of the antenna.



Im out of luck on that, its flat as a pancake around here, heh. I wonder if that guy with the four stacked 69 ft yagis lives in the Texas hill country ?


----------



## holl_ands

Ken Nist updated the 8-Bay Modification webpage, testing an alternative feedline

for the CM-4228HD, as well as a 1/4-wavelength balun:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html


----------



## dr1394

Here's some pics (including some rope yagis):

http://www.bigskyspaces.com/w7gj/6mEMEstns.htm 


Ron


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16122095
> 
> 
> Im out of luck on that, its flat as a pancake around here, heh. I wonder if that guy with the four stacked 69 ft yagis lives in the Texas hill country ?



This is in Hempstead, TX

http://www.50mhz.org/6m/album02/IMG_0255


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Here's some pics (including some rope yagis):



I hate to be under some of those when the wind is blowing strong, jeez. Also I noticed some are mounted near power lines. Nothing like living dangerously, heh.



> Quote:
> This is in Hempstead, TX



Hmm, I believe the hill country may start a little to the west of there. I remember driving from New Braunfels ( a little north of San Antonio) to north of Austin at night and I ran into some pretty darn decent hills, heh. I also remember running over an armadillo. (from what Ive been told, I didnt hurt the little critter, heh)


----------



## oldsyd

After reading this thread, I'm _almost_ too ashamed to post this, but after finding rabbit ears are insufficient to pick up my one DTV channel (KWWL NBC 7) I am going to attempt to make a folded dipole for this one channel.


Problem is, nobody in town carries 300 ohm twin lead wire, even the local independent radio supply store and Radio Shack.


This will be for indoor use, and I don't have the ability to access the attic antennas (sep. VHF/UHF Yagi) from the room I want to use this in.


Where do you recommend ordering twin lead from? I'll probably also get a new balun and combiner for it also.


It's depressing nobody manufactures a descent indoor VHF-HI antenna considering the demand for one.


Thanks,

Jay


PS - According to my calculations, I'll be cutting it to 31.68 inches long.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Problem is, nobody in town carries 300 ohm twin lead wire, even the local independent radio supply store and Radio Shack.



Make your own from copper wire. Enter your info here at K7MEMs site for the design measurements : http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=15313


----------



## cpcat

Lowe's carried twin lead the last I checked.


----------



## NTNgod




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oldsyd* /forum/post/16131457
> 
> 
> Problem is, nobody in town carries 300 ohm twin lead wire, even the local independent radio supply store and Radio Shack.



There are Menards stores in Iowa, I think. They carry the super-cheapo super-thin indoor Magnavox-branded stuff for like $2 for 50 feet (so you're not exactly getting grade-A stuff, but for $2....)


----------



## dr1394

For the perfectionists out there, here's a link to some transmit quality 300 ohm twin-lead:

http://www.dxengineering.com/products.asp?ID=170 


Ron


----------



## oldsyd

Thanks everyone for the wide array of options!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> here's a link to some transmit quality 300 ohm twin-lead:



Whew, about 30 cents a ft, but it is strong 18 gauge stuff.



> Quote:
> Lowe's carried twin lead the last I checked.



Not my Lowes anymore. What it seems they do when their stock gets low, is put it on clearance for a weekend, and then dont stock it anymore.


----------



## ray50

I have not stopped in for a while but have an antenna question. I took down a huge wineguard UHF and put up an XG91 (recomended on some web site). I still get CBS with many drop outs. I am at 13081 with the XG91 up about 40'. I have a windgard AP-8275 pre-amp but still get CBS (ch.5.1) only 30% of the time. I assume I will need to add another XG91 along side the one I have?? Several other channels (NBC, ABC, PBS, FOX) are fine but CBS is not.

An email from Ch.5 said they are at full power. (Ch.5 was also my worst analog station)


----------



## holl_ands

It's easy to build your own Folded Dipole....or a Yagi:
http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html 


Note that as long as the wires are the same size, it doesn't matter

how far they are separated:
http://www.n-lemma.com/calcs/dipole/fdipole.htm 

Set "Assumed Dipole Impedance = 75 ohms" in the input fields and desired wire diameter.

FYI Wire sizes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge 

Then notice the input impedance is always 300 ohms as you vary wire spacing (S).

Although not shown here, bigger wire (or tubing) sizes have wider bandwidth.


So you can wrap your wire of choice (insulated or not) around some sort of rigid object

(e.g. wood, Sked40 PVC pipe, etc). Since Sked40 pipe is mostly air, the velocity factor

correction is negligible, whereas with wood it is not.


Yet another folded dipole calculator:
http://www.k7mem.150m.zzz/Electronic...ed_dipole.html 

[Must change *.zzz to *.com due to forum's pesky URL editbot....]


----------



## dmatch




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ray50* /forum/post/16137316
> 
> 
> I have not stopped in for a while but have an antenna question. I took down a huge wineguard UHF and put up an XG91 (recomended on some web site). I still get CBS with many drop outs. I am at 13081 with the XG91 up about 40'. I have a windgard AP-8275 pre-amp but still get CBS (ch.5.1) only 30% of the time. I assume I will need to add another XG91 along side the one I have?? Several other channels (NBC, ABC, PBS, FOX) are fine but CBS is not.
> 
> An email from Ch.5 said they are at full power. (Ch.5 was also my worst analog station)



Are you pointed at CBS (5.1/47)? I presume you are. The 91XG has a very narrow beamwidth (a trade-off for the increased gain) and therefore requires more precise pointing. I use one in what appears to be similar circumstances to yours. I have at best 2 edge reception with many hills and trees. I found that antenna location was very critical. I have UHF signals (39 and 44) that are about 60-75% quality (60 required to lock) but go to less than 30% if I move the antenna up/down as little as 2 ft. I have run the 91XG as high as about 20 feet up but find that these channels do the best in my case at 12 feet. I am 100 feet below Line of sight. I have found a hotspot but if I move left/right as little as 3 or 4 feet or up/down 2 feet the signals go away. My point is with no line of sight to transmitters a hotspot may be where you might least expect it. Unfortunately, hotspots may also change with the seasons.


Not much help but they say misery loves company.


dmatch


----------



## serndipity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ngarrang* /forum/post/16110582
> 
> 
> For grins, I was using one of the many on-line tools for calculating the lengths for a LP/Yagi capable of 20db gain for channel 2.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The boom length came out to 127 feet. I lost count of the number of directors.



Was that for a Log Periodic Dipole Array or a Log Periodic Yagi Array?


Curious because: in a LPDA, the trade off is low SWR across at wide frequency range with moderate gain (e.g. diminishing gain contribution after 3-5 elements), while a LPYA will still provide a low SWR, as well as higher gain.


If you have a link to a LPYA calculator, I would love to have it.


BTW, if gain is the game....it's hard to beat a dish reflector (for 20 dB of gain @ channel 2, the diameter would be quite small compared to a 127' boom).....wider is better than longer .


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> [Must change *.zzz to *.com due to forum's pesky URL editbot....]



What is the deal with that ? Some oddball links are OK, yet K7MEMs site is edited by the bot, heh ?


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *serndipity* /forum/post/16139085
> 
> 
> BTW, if gain is the game....it's hard to beat a dish reflector (for 20 dB of gain @ channel 2, the diameter would be quite small compared to a 127' boom).....wider is better than longer .



You neglected to do the math. A 20 dBi dish at 54 MHz would be approx. 80 feet in diameter.


Ron


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ray50* /forum/post/16137316
> 
> 
> I am at 13081 with the XG91 up about 40'.



Have you considered another CBS station?


The generic tvfool plot for 13081 shows both WROC and WBNG as stronger than WTVH. What's your plot look like?


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ray50* /forum/post/16137316
> 
> 
> I took down a huge wineguard UHF and put up an XG91 (recomended on some web site). I still get CBS with many drop outs. I am at 13081 with the XG91 up about 40'.



Is the 91-XG mounted in the same spot the Winegard was? Have you tried fine tuning the height to find a possible sweet spot for UHF 47? Did you tilt the antenna up any? I have found these slight tweaks to be very beneficial for marginal UHF stations. Just as dmatch stated, I have found _"lowering"_ the height 6-12 inches has made quite a difference more than once.


Are you using any kind of VHF antenna?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> You neglected to do the math. A 20 dBi dish at 54 MHz would be approx. 80 feet in diameter.



I would go for a little more than that to ensure the 20 dbi gain, maybe around 150 ft in diameter, heh.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16141442
> 
> 
> I would go for a little more than that to ensure the 20 dbi gain, maybe around 150 ft in diameter, heh.



Here's the calculator I used:

http://my.athenet.net/~multiplx/cgi-...bolic.main.cgi 


Ron


----------



## serndipity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/16139534
> 
> 
> You neglected to do the math. A 20 dBi dish at 54 MHz would be approx. 80 feet in diameter. Ron



Actually...for channel 2, the dish diameter would be 54' (assumes a driven element with unity gain and 100% efficiency).


Gain = 10 log (4 pie A/WL^2), where A = area of aperture.


----------



## 300ohm

On a parabola, unlike other antenna styles, the aperature area is less than the diameter of the dish, is what Ive read. A good parabola diameter needs to be about 6 to 10 times the wavelength.


Also on aperatures, calculating the aperature area is relatively easy. But finding the aperature SHAPE can be a mystery. On a yagi, the consensus on the shape is that its a horizontal oval. I assume on a parabola, its round. On many other antenna types, its still a mystery as far as I can tell. Knowing the aperature shape is key to getting the right stacking distances, according to the latest stacking theories, ie you stack so that the aperatures shapes just touch each other.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *serndipity* /forum/post/16139085
> 
> 
> Was that for a Log Periodic Dipole Array or a Log Periodic Yagi Array?
> 
> 
> Curious because: in a LPDA, the trade off is low SWR across at wide frequency range with moderate gain (e.g. diminishing gain contribution after 3-5 elements), while a LPYA will still provide a low SWR, as well as higher gain.
> 
> 
> If you have a link to a LPYA calculator, I would love to have it.



Antique DOS app: Google logyagi.exe


BTW: Why would anyone build a huge parabolic and not take advantage of gain

in the feed system (e.g. CM parabolic uses 2-Bay Bowtie).


More info re REAL Parabolics:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=96216 
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=96113 
http://www.rocketroberts.com/cm4251/cm4251.htm 

The Lafayette Parabolic used a Yagi feed....

Go to end to see a big C-Band dish re-purposed for UHF band....


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The Lafayette Parabolic used a Yagi feed....



Thats the one (pictured in the ad) I used to dx uhf with in the old days. That ad was in the Layfayette catalog probably from about 1968-1970 as I recall paying a little more in 1973. I had to drive all the way to Long Island, New York to get it. RocketRoberts is now into the Hoverman based Super-G 1483 antennas, so I invited him to look over the stuff modeled in the other forum and gets some real gain, heh. Once he gets back from Japan, expect to see him there.



> Quote:
> BTW: Why would anyone build a huge parabolic and not take advantage of gain
> 
> in the feed system (e.g. CM parabolic uses 2-Bay Bowtie).



But at 54 mhz, the 2 bay bowtie would be pretty huge too. Actually doing this kind of stuff at 54mhz is beyond insanity, heh. You may as well go buy one of those SETI dishes.


----------



## serndipity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16143833
> 
> 
> Antique DOS app: Google logyagi.exe
> 
> 
> BTW: Why would anyone build a huge parabolic and not take advantage of gain in the feed system



Thanks.....found it.

http://sm2yer.dyndns.org/building/6logostar/index.html 


Also found a Log-Yagi Array design article (with design equations, curves) that was published in the 12/1976 issue of QST.


However, given the wide frequency range requirement for TV, the LPDA section would be quite sizable (lots of elements) and the addition of a parasitic director and reflector would not be all that useful.


The example in post #9100 was only to illustrate that a 20 dB dish, for channel 2, would have a diameter of of 54' compared to a 127' long LPYA (although smaller, not practical). It did not take into account gain from the feed system or any losses (e.g. feed blockage, dissipative, spillover, phase errors etc.).


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> that was published in the 12/1876 issue of QST.



Man, thats an old issue, heh. I have a 1901 recipe book that you have to turn the pages very slowly or else they crumble.


You could also probably get 20dbi with a cantenna. Just have to use one of those size coffee cans the buying clubs sell it in, heh heh.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16143833
> 
> 
> BTW: Why would anyone build a huge parabolic and not take advantage of gain
> 
> in the feed system (e.g. CM parabolic uses 2-Bay Bowtie).



You can't use a high gain feed. It won't properly illuminate the reflector.

http://www.qsl.net/n1bwt/chap11.pdf 


Ron


----------



## dr1394

Here's the table of contents for the link I posted.

http://www.qsl.net/n1bwt/contents.htm 


Ron


----------



## 300ohm

Yeah, I dont think the Channel Master 4251 parabola with the 2 bowties had much, if any more gain than if they had used a folded dipole at the focal point. The 2 bowties were away from the actual focal point of the parabola, so that may have hurt it compared to using a folded dipole placed right at the focal point. The reflector behind (in front of) the 2 bowties helped the design a lot, but it would have also helped the folded dipole if it had been used instead.

The bowties did give it a certain "Wow" factor, that differentiated it from the rest and helped its sales.


----------



## holl_ands

Anyone care to back up idle speculation with NEC simulations.....


----------



## 300ohm

Heh.


Well, Im not going to go and buy a CM4251 on ebay, heh. They seem to be going for a pretty penny and shipping cant be cheap.


I could work out a generic example later though.


I have been thinking of building my own 8 ft parabola for a while. I do have a load of 2 X 3 mesh and a 14 inch bandsaw with extra riser. And I think I could build a pvc frame with heat bending. But unfortunately that all takes time and I got tons of other "need to do now" projects for the spring, ie put new roof on garage, paint garage, rotor tiller the garden and plant what has to be planted when, clean out goldfish pond etc etc etc, heh. Not to mention that I want to build two reflectorless NAROD with NAROD reflector DBGHs.


----------



## systems2000

HAH! I beat you to the tilling and Spring planting.










Now to get the reception problems worked out.


----------



## Kieran

What's happening to KCBS after the transition? Right now, antennaweb.org shows KCBS as my strongest station (green antenna required) whereas post June transition, it drops to the BOTTOM of the list (violet antenna required) but has the same distance and heading (well, heading changes from 37deg to 36deg). The broadcast channel also is changing from 60 to 43. Are they dropping their power or something? I'm going to have to upgrade my antenna if this is the case. :-(


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> HAH! I beat you to the tilling and Spring planting



Well maybe, but only because I was getting the garden ready AND working on my latest Hoverman design at the same time, heh.











This my eco-friendly SBGH reflectorless design. My bamboo has been sustainably-managed (its a fight to keep from invading everything, heh), hasn't contributed to biodiversity or habitat loss, hasn't exploited workers who managed and harvested the wood (me), and has positively contributed to the local economy (mine), heh. So, I think it could be certified by the FSC, he he.


Right now, Im only getting one channel thats pointed in my Atlantic City direction. Maybe when I transplant it, Ill aim it towards my Philadelphia stations and see what I get. I connected it to the vee point in the bamboo using foam core 300 ohm twin lead into a 300ohm to 75ohm balun for the portable TV connection.


And.......................as a bonus, you save on a grounding block, heh.


----------



## systems2000

That's a whole new way to look at what's known as "HGTV."


----------



## 300ohm

Ill post build, err grow plans in the next few weeks. Maybe Rebeccas Garden will pick it up, heh heh.


Actually I should call this my Gungan model, thats what their whole technology was based on, growing their devices in SW episode 1, heh.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16151258
> 
> 
> My bamboo has been sustainably-managed (its a fight to keep from invading everything, heh)



Like kudzu, huh?










(Kudzu TV... now, there's a thought!)


That TV looks a lot like the Coby that my wife has in the kitchen, permanently tuned to the one analog channel that it receives acceptably with its single rabbit ear out here in the boonies. Sometime soon we'll have to experiment again with an indoor antenna and converter box, and see if we can pick up at least one station well enough that we don't have to run another coax from the outdoor antenna that serves our main TV in the living room.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> That TV looks a lot like the Coby



That TV is a GPX. I have a Coby like that too, but the Coby didnt come with that nifty 300ohm to 75ohm balun (even though there is a jack for it on the back of the Coby) or the AC and 12 volt adapters. The Coby also doesnt have a RCA video input like this GPX has (even though I havent gotten it to work right yet, heh). Ill make up a good cable for connection to the CECB and see what happens.


----------



## ngarrang




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *serndipity* /forum/post/16139085
> 
> 
> Was that for a Log Periodic Dipole Array or a Log Periodic Yagi Array?
> 
> 
> Curious because: in a LPDA, the trade off is low SWR across at wide frequency range with moderate gain (e.g. diminishing gain contribution after 3-5 elements), while a LPYA will still provide a low SWR, as well as higher gain.
> 
> 
> If you have a link to a LPYA calculator, I would love to have it.
> 
> 
> BTW, if gain is the game....it's hard to beat a dish reflector (for 20 dB of gain @ channel 2, the diameter would be quite small compared to a 127' boom).....wider is better than longer .



The web page was for a yagi-style, I believe. I will see if I can find my way back to the web page.


EDIT: I cannot seem to find the page again, but I think it was an LPDA, actually. All of the elements were straight, and it had no corner reflectors.


----------



## Konrad2

> This my eco-friendly SBGH reflectorless design. My bamboo

> has been sustainably-managed (its a fight to keep from

> invading everything, heh),


Perhaps there is a variety of clumping style bamboo that

weaves back and forth like that? (far less invasive

than the running style)


Does the Professor on Gilligan's Island know about this?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Perhaps there is a variety of clumping style bamboo that
> 
> weaves back and forth like that?



Yeah, I really dont know why it does that. Some have that zig zag at the bottom, while another piece right next to it is perfectly straight up and down.










I saw a tip on a bamboo website that tells you how to grow square bamboo (instead of round). Basically, you put a heavy square tube of appropriate size on it when it spouts up in the spring and it will follow that form.







Ill think Ill try it when it starts to sprout up soon.


One of Confucius' sayings was "We can live without meat. We can live without rice. But if you take away our bamboo, we will die".


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I have a Coby like that too,



Oops, I was wrong. It was another GPX. (Coby, GPX and others are probably all made in the same factory in China anyway, heh) So I have 2 GPXs, and 1 International (made in Korea), heh.


Picture of the backs of them for comparison :










The left black one is the oldest, circa 1988 or so. The grey middle one is the newest, circa 2004 or so. And the dark gray right one is circa 1997. They all work, and are pretty much equally sensitive. On the black International one, I tried to put an F connector on it, but it doesnt work out too well for some reason, heh.


The GPXs take 10 "C" cells, while the black International one takes 10 "D" cells.


I paid $9 for the middle gray one new at a local department store on sale (bought about 5 of them for gifts, heh). I got the International one at a Goodwill store for $5 and just picked up the circa 1997 one, new and in original box, for $5 at the local flea market. They are excellent TV/AM/FM devices to have along while fishing, heh.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Also found a Log-Yagi Array design article



Heres a picture of a 2 element UHF corner reflector log-yagi growing out of my compost pile, heh.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/15803459
> 
> 
> Yeah, my Sansonic FT300A bars take time to respond to changes too. I imagine youll post a similiar comparison to it later too.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16109369
> 
> 
> Your comparison analysis with the Apex was very useful, thanks again. Deep down, I always thought these cheap CECBs could be sensitive, down and dirty tools to use.
> 
> IIRC, you also have the Sansonic. Can we expect another comparison analysis soon, heh ? (no pressure)



Here is my comparison of the Apex DT502 vs the Sansonic FT300A when used as a signal level/BER meter, first in a strong signal area. The signal level readings in dBmV were made with a Sadelco DisplayMax 800 and a 719E SLM (Q=quality, S=strength):
Code:


Code:


attenuator      Apex        Sansonic     DM800    719E   Equiv
   dB         Q%    S%      Q%    S%     dBmV     dBmV    dBm
    0        100    84     100   100     +9.9     +9.0   -39.8
    3        100    84     100   100     +6.5     +6.1   -42.7
    6        100    83     100   100     +4.2     +3.1   -45.7
    9        100    83     100   100     +1.5      0.0   -48.8
   12        100    80     100   100     -1.4     -3.0   -51.8
   15        100    76     100   100     -5.2     -6.0   -54.8
   18        100    72     100   100     -8.5     -9.3   -58.1
   21        100    68     100    91    -10.9    -12.1   -60.9
   24        100    64     100    80    -13.1    -15.0   -63.8
   27        100    57     100    70    -15.7    -18.3   -67.1
   30        100    51      24    60    -18.5    -22.0   -70.8
   33        100    46       8    40      Ur     -25.2   -74.0
   36        100    41       4    34             -29     -77.8
   39         95    37       dropout             -35     -83.8
   42         79    30
   45         35     0
   48         dropout

And then in a weak signal area:
Code:


Code:


attenuator      Apex        Sansonic     DM800    719E   Equiv
   dB         Q%    S%      Q%    S%     dBmV     dBmV    dBm
    0        100    55     100   100     -18.1    -21.0  -69.8
    3        100    50      94    95       Ur     -25    -73.8
    6        100    43     100    83              -29    -77.8
    9         92    34      38    70              -33    -81.8
   12         57    26      23    60              -36    -84.8
   15         21     0       7    56              -39    -87.8
   18          dropout       dropout

Note: The initial signal level readings are a little lower than last time because I needed to use a 4-way splitter instead of a 2-way splitter to feed 4 pieces of equipment. Because OTA signal levels are constantly changing, the attenuator settings don't exactly match the signal level meter readings, but this doesn't invalidate the general trend of readings.


Conclusions: The Apex box gives a wider range of readings than the Sansonic, and these readings are more consistent in that they are repeatable when given the same signal again. The Apex needs an inverter to run on battery power, which was necessary because I had to move to other test sites with my car because my CM4221 antenna at home is pointed across a well-traveled road which constantly changes the signal bar readings.


The Sansonic box works just a well as the Apex as a DTV converter box and it can run on battery power, but my main concern is its usefulness as a measurement tool. Its readings take a long time to settle (which I could live with), but they are not consistent from time-to-time which puts its accuracy in question. I can't recommend the Sansonic as a measurement tool. My results with the Sansonic confirm what the NAB-MSTV Converter Box Report says about it in this quote (they call it #7):


> Quote:
> One unit (#7) even provided two indicators, one for signal strength and one for signal quality. This method is actually one of the best ways for the viewer to understand what is happening with the incoming DTV signal since it immediately indicates whether problem reception is due to broadband signal fading or severe dynamic multipath. However, during the lab testing experience, while the signal strength meter worked well, this particular signal quality meter (in unit #7) jumped around between large and small numbers and was not very stable. Nevertheless, this dual meter approach is a good idea if implemented properly.



Their report is here:
http://www.nabfastroad.org/NAB-STV%2...y-report1.html 

Click on Digital Converter Box Report which should take you to:
http://www.nabfastroad.org/NAB-STV%2...report.doc.pdf 

The quote is on p22 of 53 of the pdf, which is p5 of 36 of the LABORATORY TEST REPORT under Signal Quality Indicator.


Edit: Added equivalent dBm values for 719E dBmV figures using conversion factor of -48.8 for people used to tvfool signal power values and to compare with NTIA sensitivity spec of -83.0 dBm for CECBs. The dBmV figures for the 719E are less accurate below -30 dBmV because the meter scale is crowded at that end. When using a very weak signal for comparisons, I add a preamp between the splitter and the SLM. Since it is not in line with the tuners its noise figure does not affect them:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...ostcount=10649 


Update: For some strange reason the Apex DT502 has trouble with ION network stations. I tried 3 different units. Also, the Apex does not allow you to add a channel after scan.


----------



## 300ohm

Thanks for the measurements rabbit73, they are still useful.



> Quote:
> The Sansonic box works just a well as the Apex as a DTV converter box and it can run on battery power, but my main concern is its usefulness as a measurement tool. Its readings take a long time to settle (which I could live with), but they are not consistent from time-to-time which puts its accuracy in question. I can't recommend the Sansonic as a measurement tool.



Yeah, consistancy and repeatability are important for any measurement tool. A yardstick that expanded and contracted would be pretty worthless, heh. (but would make a very good April Fools joke on any carpenter, he he)


I wonder what the malfunction could be ??


----------



## systems2000

300ohm,


How well does that thing work? Do you have any measurements on it or Manf./Model #?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> 300ohm,
> 
> 
> How well does that thing work? Do you have any measurements on it or Manf./Model #?



Do you mean the compost pile UHF corner reflector log-yagi ??


I believe it was a uhf front end to one of Radio Shacks highest gain combo antennas, (circa around 1985, dont know the model number but maybe could find it in an old RS catalog) which I believe were manufactured by AntennaCraft at the time. When I found it, the big VHF/FM section was so completely mangled up and most of the plastic pieces were broken, that I scrapped it for parts. (It probably came down in a big storm because the original owner didnt know the first thing about properly securing an antenna, or had followed the advice of a RS sales clerk, heh)

The UHF director boom was also mangled up pretty bad, but at least I had the first director in front of the driven elements, (the most important one) and after unbending what I could, put on a director boom with elements using typical UHF director spacing found on other similiar antennas.


I made a rough NEC model of it last September, but need to recheck my measurements before posting the file. With the 8 directors on it, in real life testing, it performs worse than a SBGH for channels below 51, but a little better on channels above 60. My DBGH blows it away on channels below say 55 and does about as well on the channels above 60, so I no longer use it.


Actually, some of the brownish spots you see on the booms are not rust stains, but rather whats left of the original gold anodizing, heh.


----------



## ray50

Thanks for replies. I got another 4' of mast and will play around with tilting and posistion when (and if) we get a nice sunny weekend. I see (using Google Earth) that I am in a shadow for CBS. Will rotate and scan for other stations also. Thanks again.


----------



## bciocco

I originally posted this in my home area thread. But, I realized that it probably belongs here.

I am shopping for an antenna. I live less than 10 miles from the towers. Most channels are UHF. I do want to receive VHF channel 7.1, .2, .3.


TVFool is attached


Solid Signal suggested the Winegard HD7010 . It is just barely in the budget. Actually a liitle outside once I consider the cable and stuff (from monoprice.com ). I can swing it though. I saved some money on the TIVO box at Sears today. The $299 box was on sale for $189 and i got 5% off for floor model. I was planning on a refurb for $199.


I am also considering the Antenna Craft HBU22 which may be overkill, but is a few dollars cheaper for what appears to be more antenna.


I do like the price on the Winegard HD1080 $25.82 and free shipping. I don't know if it will meet my needs though. Solid signal says it will. I would hate to need to return it though.


Any suggestions?

Am I stressing too much about this and pretty much anything will work?


----------



## IDRick

bcicocco,


Very well written and informative post! You have very strong signals in your area. It is very possible that you could receive all you locals with a **non**amplified indoor antenna such as the Radio shack 15-1874. See: http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077 


If you go outdoor antenna, the HBU22 is an excellent choice in your price range. Winegard 1080 has very poor reception for high vhf channel 7 and I would clearly avoid it in your situation.


HTH,


Rick


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Yes, you are stressing too much.


All you probably need is a set-top antenna with both a loop and rabbit ears. You can probably find those at Big Lots for $10.


From Solid Signal's collection if you want to go outdoors: Antennacraft AC9 or Antennas Direct V10 are both adequate for your needs.


The AC9's price would work in your favor.


You don't need much antenna since you are so close.


----------



## oldsyd

So, after hitting the local Menards, Lowes and Home Depot I came up

empty handed for 300 ohm twin lead.


The only thing I could come up with was a wimpy 300 ohm FM antenna

from Magnavox.


The FM antenna wouldn't even pull in a signal.


So, I took your advice and bought some bare 16 gauge copper wire

and made a tuned antenna for VHF 7 out of masking tape, electrical tape,

some scrap plywood and a balun adapter, and guess what, it works great!










Total cost: $2.64 (copper wire)


Out of the Radio Shack UFO, and the Cornet F-645A indoor antennas, my homebrew was the only antenna that worked at all.


It's an ugly beta version, but it proves a nicer design will only work better.


I'm able to pick up VHF 7 indoors on my APEX DTV box with 68% signal strength and 100% quality (it has dual meters)


So, thanks again everyone!











I used the link below to make this beast.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16132524
> 
> 
> Make your own from copper wire. Enter your info here at K7MEMs site for the design measurements : http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=15313


----------



## bciocco




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IDRick* /forum/post/16183322
> 
> 
> bcicocco,
> 
> 
> Very well written and informative post! You have very strong signals in your area. It is very possible that you could receive all you locals with a **non**amplified indoor antenna such as the Radio shack 15-1874. See: http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077
> 
> 
> If you go outdoor antenna, the HBU22 is an excellent choice in your price range. Winegard 1080 has very poor reception for high vhf channel 7 and I would clearly avoid it in your situation.
> 
> 
> HTH,
> 
> 
> Rick



I ordered the HBU22 from Solid Signal. I'll let you know how it goes.


In the meantime, I built the homemade antenna here . I tried it on my mom's TV (she lives a couple of blocks away) and got 9 channels in, all strong, including all three VHF 7channels. I am pretty sure the HUB22 will meet my needs now. I don't know that I will get any more channels. But I will get those 9.


BC


----------



## 300ohm

Using the 16 gauge copper wire for the driven element is better than using twinlead. However, the connection from the antenna to the TV should be 300ohm twin lead (or a balun and a length of 75ohm coax cable. )


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oldsyd* /forum/post/16186496
> 
> 
> So, I took your advice and bought some bare 16 gauge copper wire
> 
> and made a tuned antenna for VHF 7 out of masking tape, electrical tape,
> 
> some scrap plywood and a balun adapter, and guess what, it works great!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's an ugly beta version, but it proves a nicer design will only work better.
> 
> 
> .



if it receives or transmits the signals you want then it's not ugly, though some antennas might be better looking than others.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> the 7777 amplifies VHF and UHF separately



Yeah. I still wonder why they did that, it does have separate F connectors. Maybe it could be hacked so you could have a vhf and uhf input at the same time like on my CM0264. It would make a lot more sense then.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> then it's not ugly,



That masking tape on the wall however........................heh.


----------



## systems2000

I'd like to offer you two suggestions you can try that may improve your reception.


1. To maintain the symmetry of your antenna, wrap electrical tape around the board every 6" or so.

2. Use screw terminals (wood screws and washers) at the feed point to maintain a 1" gap and attach a high quality balun ( Channel Master 0089 ) there.


----------



## oldsyd

Thanks for the tips. Yes, the masking tape is just a temporary

solution. I actually have some paint leftover from that room,

and I'll be painting the wood that color and using those 3M

removable stick-ons to attach it to the wall.


I'll keep the element copper wire, and add some 300 ohm feedline

from somewhere. Heck, I'll even order that ladderline if I have to.


Would adding wood screws and washers alter the pattern?

Everything I read about antennas stresses keeping metal

away from the elements.


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oldsyd* /forum/post/16188523
> 
> 
> Thanks for the tips. Yes, the masking tape is just a temporary
> 
> solution. I actually have some paint leftover from that room,
> 
> and I'll be painting the wood that color and using those 3M
> 
> removable stick-ons to attach it to the wall.
> 
> 
> I'll keep the element copper wire, and add some 300 ohm feedline
> 
> from somewhere. Heck, I'll even order that ladderline if I have to.
> 
> 
> Would adding wood screws and washers alter the pattern?
> 
> Everything I read about antennas stresses keeping metal
> 
> away from the elements.



if you are feeding a device with a 75 ohm coax input then you could add a balun to the antenna feedpoint and use coax all the way. you may not need to buy the 300 ohm cable at all.


using the adhesive mounts would work. picture hanging devices (metal hooks) would work. having the wood backing extend a few inches longer than the antenna and putting screws in there would work. all these would keep metal away.


yes metal nearby (as in screws) does affect but so does the wall it is hanging on. make up the antenna and if it functions well then go with it even if it isn't optimum in all respects.


you've got good results with what you did. securing the elements a constant distance every six inches as was suggested will be a big improvement. using coax as a feed line or 300 ohm will be a big improvement. if those give a good signal then a screw or two may not matter.


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16187375
> 
> 
> Yeah. I still wonder why they did that, it does have separate F connectors. Maybe it could be hacked so you could have a vhf and uhf input at the same time like on my CM0264. It would make a lot more sense then.



Uh, the CM7777 already does accept VHF and UHF input at the same time. It has 2 75-ohm inputs and a 75-ohm output.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Yes, the masking tape is just a temporary
> 
> solution.



Just a tip about masking tape. You want to remove it as soon as possible. If not, it sets in and becomes harder to remove without wall damage.


You dont want to build a quick simple antenna and then have to spend many hours on a spackling and paint job for the wall. That kind of defeats the whole purpose, heh.


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16187171
> 
> 
> Using the 16 gauge copper wire for the driven element is better than using twinlead. However, the connection from the antenna to the TV should be 300ohm twin lead (or a balun and a length of 75ohm coax cable. )



As an old saying goes, NEVER argue with success!









Heck if its ugly looking but it works, I doubt he would see any improvement going to 300 ohm flat lead....given the size of the wire, and the picture, he COULD be 300ohm now!! (remember, ladder line Z is dependant on wire size, distance, etc).


----------



## systems2000

Masking tape is designed to be removed within 24 hours.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> he COULD be 300ohm now!! (remember, ladder line Z is dependant on wire size, distance, etc).



That could very well be true. But usually the odds are stacked way against it. If I were to place a bet, I would put my money that it wouldnt be 300ohm impedance, heh. (we have legalized gambling in Delaware, heh)



> Quote:
> Masking tape is designed to be removed within 24 hours.



When I use it for painting a straight edge, I like to remove it within 30 minutes of finishing. Even then I sometimes get that nasty residue. (I know, I should break down and use that pricey blue tape, heh)


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16187375
> 
> 
> Yeah. I still wonder why they did that, it does have separate F connectors. Maybe it could be hacked so you could have a vhf and uhf input at the same time like on my CM0264. It would make a lot more sense then.



The use of two separate amplifiers, one for UHF and one for VHF, significantly reduces the possibility of overload.


----------



## italysfinest327

Hey all, my inlaws have a vacation home upstate ny in the town of franklin. Its in the middle of no where. We have a radio shack indoor antenna which can be found here We get like 4 channels that come in somewhat clear but needs a bit of tweaking with the antenna. Last time i was up there i connected a digital converter box and got about 2 channels. Last week i built a homemade antenna which i followed the instructions according to this site. I connected it at my home on long island and get a decent amount of clear channels. I live somewhat close to where the signal is being emitted. Im wondering what type of antenna might be best for the house upstate based on this image i got from tv fool. I know its going to be tough but i was hoping to pick up some more channels for when we go up and visit.


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *italysfinest327* /forum/post/16202578
> 
> 
> Hey all, my inlaws have a vacation home upstate ny in the town of franklin. Its in the middle of no where. We have a radio shack indoor antenna which can be found here We get like 4 channels that come in somewhat clear but needs a bit of tweaking with the antenna. Last time i was up there i connected a digital converter box and got about 2 channels. Last week i built a homemade antenna which i followed the instructions according to this site. I connected it at my home on long island and get a decent amount of clear channels. I live somewhat close to where the signal is being emitted. Im wondering what type of antenna might be best for the house upstate based on this image i got from tv fool. I know its going to be tough but i was hoping to pick up some more channels for when we go up and visit.



With everything being *MANY* miles away, you WILL need an outside antenna and a decent amp like a Channel Master CM7777. I suggest you get 20ft of top rail post, slide them together and then use 3 screws (short sheet metal self tappers work fine!) 120 degrees apart to hold it together just above the joint..then a bracket from Radio Shack or similar to mount it to the eave or side of the house...put a decent outdoor antenna with the CM7777 right below it at the top of the mast, then walk it up, work the bottom into the ground at least 6in deep and clamp it in. I did that and it cost me MORE in the amp than the antenna (an older RS VU90) and mast, etc combined! Works like a champ and I get stations almost 90-100miles away from Houston a lot of the times (not ALL the time! 90+ is beyond the RF horizon..I DO get a station out of SE La ok all the time...your mileage may vary as they say)...forget the indoor stuff...especially with digital in the rural areas (we have a lot down in here in Texas like that; Outside of Houston, DFW, Austin, San Antonio, etc). With the arrangement above you can turn it by hand from the ground. not needing a rotor up top! Saves some cash...Looking at the printout, you may be able to point due north or slightly west and not have to turn it...


----------



## 300ohm

Wow, you are in a black hole of signals. I didnt think a place like that existed on the east coast.



> Quote:
> We have a radio shack indoor antenna which can be found here We get like 4 channels that come in somewhat clear but needs a bit of tweaking with the antenna



You would be probably better off with this model here : http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062017 


Like Dr Touchtone said, youre going to need a very high gain antenna, mounted outdoors way up high with a low noise preamp like the CM7777 to even have a chance at receiving some of those stations.

Some high gain do it yourself antennas can be found here http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=186 and here : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...798265&page=74 


In a place like yours, I would seriously consider getting my home entertainment from a dvd player, heh.


----------



## italysfinest327

so my best bet would prob be a "Grey Hoverman" type antenna with a amp

edit: i have an amp i found in my basement identical to this but just a different brand, would this work with the grey hoverman antenna?


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bciocco* /forum/post/16187168
> 
> 
> I ordered the HBU22 from Solid Signal. I'll let you know how it goes.
> 
> 
> In the meantime, I built the homemade antenna here . I tried it on my mom's TV (she lives a couple of blocks away) and got 9 channels in, all strong, including all three VHF 7channels. I am pretty sure the HUB22 will meet my needs now. I don't know that I will get any more channels. But I will get those 9.
> 
> 
> BC



Please do report back. It's always good to know how things work out and we may be of additional assistance.


All the best,


Rick


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *italysfinest327* /forum/post/16203544
> 
> 
> so my best bet would prob be a "Grey Hoverman" type antenna with a amp
> 
> edit: i have an amp i found in my basement identical to this but just a different brand, would this work with the grey hoverman antenna?


*Gawd NO!!!* Any RS amp is usually garbage (except their distribution amps but nothing antenna wise is worth a flip..too much noise and not enough gain)...spend some money right and get a CM7777 and be done with it (trust me, you'll be happy in the long run you did it) I am not sure about the Grey Hoverman antenna (*edit*..just checked the link..yep, you _would be better_ with that antenna than the one you want to use...he was being slightly sarastic!) I would think something like the CM4228 series would do (or the newer 4228HD..provided no LowBand 2-6 stations will be out on the horizon)....


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Any RS amp is usually garbage



Yep, stay far far away from them and if you do touch one, wash your hands immediately, heh.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bciocco* /forum/post/16187168
> 
> 
> I ordered the HBU22 from Solid Signal. I'll let you know how it goes.
> 
> 
> In the meantime, I built the homemade antenna here . I tried it on my mom's TV (she lives a couple of blocks away) and got 9 channels in, all strong, including all three VHF 7channels. I am pretty sure the HUB22 will meet my needs now. I don't know that I will get any more channels. But I will get those 9.
> 
> 
> BC



The Maker:TV and several other DIY 4-Bay designs (e.g. UTube) are

TOO SMALL, resulting in loss of gain on lower and middle UHF channels....

and excessive SWR loss for Hi-VHF....


The blogspot DIY antenna (see post #9134) uses 7-inch bowtie to bowtie

spacing, which results in a better overall gain response, but is still not as

effective as the CM4221 (8-inch spacing) and mclapp's DIY design (9-inch),

which are analyzed here for Hi-VHF and UHF, presuming NO Reflector:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/4bay 


DIY designs by mclapp (with Reflectors), that provide good Gain across

BOTH Hi-VHF and UHF bands are summarized here:
http://www.frontiernet.net/~mclapp/A...tors%20UHF.gif 
http://www.frontiernet.net/~mclapp/A...t%20VHF-HI.gif


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The Maker:TV and several other DIY 4-Bay designs (e.g. UTube) are
> 
> TOO SMALL, resulting in loss of gain on lower and middle UHF channels....
> 
> and excessive SWR loss for Hi-VHF....



Heh, not only that, but he cheaps out using coat hangers instead of something like 8 or 10 gauge bare copper, (which actually causes more work and connection headaches) but then uses pricey galvanized pipe flanges and nipples and ubolts for his mounting, tsk, tsk.


And of course, he calls a 4 bay bowtie a "Hoover-man" (not Hoverman). I think that particular show was meant to be a comedy episode, heh.


I think Norm would do a little more research before filming than that ! (even Kevin would)


----------



## bciocco




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16204919
> 
> 
> The Maker:TV and several other DIY 4-Bay designs (e.g. UTube) are
> 
> TOO SMALL, resulting in loss of gain on lower and middle UHF channels....
> 
> and excessive SWR loss for Hi-VHF....
> 
> 
> The blogspot DIY antenna (see post #9134) uses 7-inch bowtie to bowtie
> 
> spacing, which results in a better overall gain response, but is still not as
> 
> effective as the CM4221 (8-inch spacing) and mclapp's DIY design (9-inch),
> 
> which are analyzed here for Hi-VHF and UHF, presuming NO Reflector:
> http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/4bay
> 
> 
> DIY designs by mclapp (with Reflectors), that provide good Gain across
> 
> BOTH Hi-VHF and UHF bands are summarized here:
> http://www.frontiernet.net/~mclapp/A...tors%20UHF.gif
> http://www.frontiernet.net/~mclapp/A...t%20VHF-HI.gif



Thanks.

I will try the 8 or 9 inch with copper wire for my mom's house and see if it does any better.

I am going to stick with the hbu22, if it fits in the attic.


----------



## systems2000

Italysfinest327,


The Gray-Hovermann will not give you the ability to receive channel 4, 7, or 8. To receive those channels, you'll need a VHF antenna. I also noticed that all your reception is 2-edge. This will make constant reception a challenge. You'll need to make sure you have a clear view (no trees, buildings, or hillsides) in the direction you need to point your antenna. Try to get at least 35-40' above the ground level and I'd recommend at least 10' above your roof line.


You may need to look at ganging antennas.


----------



## italysfinest327




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16209175
> 
> 
> Italysfinest327,
> 
> 
> The Gray-Hovermann will not give you the ability to receive channel 4, 7, or 8. To receive those channels, you'll need a VHF antenna. I also noticed that all your reception is 2-edge. This will make constant reception a challenge. You'll need to make sure you have a clear view (no trees, buildings, or hillsides) in the direction you need to point your antenna. Try to get at least 35-40' above the ground level and I'd recommend at least 10' above your roof line.
> 
> 
> You may need to look at ganging antennas.



Not even this version of the GH antenna?
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=99907


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The Gray-Hovermann will not give you the ability to receive channel 4, 7, or 8.



Tsk, Tsk systems2000, you need to keep up, heh. I still cant get it to get channel 4 though.


----------



## italysfinest327




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16209640
> 
> 
> Tsk, Tsk systems2000, you need to keep up, heh. I still cant get it to get channel 4 though.



im really excited to begin this build im going to be heading up in the beginning of may and plan on testing it out if all goes well ill post back with results

edit: on a side not i began looking at the parts list to build the antenna and i tried looking online but where would i be able to purchase narods?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> but where would i be able to purchase narods?



Heh, theyre made from the same material as the driven element.


----------



## mlmahon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *italysfinest327* /forum/post/16209397
> 
> 
> Not even this version of the GH antenna?
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=99907



Hey, I'm not trying to be pessimistic, but it might be cheaper for you to just go Satellite.


----------



## SkiSmuggs

Antennas Direct has its TV Signal Meter on sale for $29.95:

http://antennasdirect.com/sm100.html 


The SM100 HDTV Signal Finder:


Is an effective and inexpensive way to aim your Antennas Direct antenna and measure performance, at a fraction of the cost of professional signal meters. The meter will detect the presence of transmissions on the frequencies that most DTV stations broadcast.


Compact, lightweight and easy to use:


* The SM100 is useful in antenna aiming, especially rooftop installations

* Integrated filters are designed to detect digital television broadcasts only

* Commercial grade meters cost as much as $700

* Test signal strength at the antenna or weak signals from cables & splitters

* Includes a 9V battery


Note: The SM100 meter will not identify specific HDTV broadcasts by channel number. A commercial grade field meter is advised for those capabilities.


This special is good through April 30, 2009.


----------



## 300ohm

Hmm, 5 leds for the meter instead of a simple analog meter.


----------



## bernieoc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SkiSmuggs* /forum/post/16213938
> 
> 
> Antennas Direct has its TV Signal Meter on sale for $29.95:
> 
> http://antennasdirect.com/sm100.html
> 
> 
> The SM100 HDTV Signal Finder:
> 
> 
> this special is good through April 30, 2009.



Would this meter work on low vhf - I have PBS staying on CH 3 and it always gives me problems.

Bernieoc


----------



## SkiSmuggs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bernieoc* /forum/post/16216902
> 
> 
> Would this meter work on low vhf - I have PBS staying on CH 3 and it always gives me problems.
> 
> Bernieoc



If you have a separate lo-VHF antenna and connected the meter to that, it should do fine. It doesn't work by individual channels, but apparently on the signal strength coming from the antenna. I have a hi-VHF channel that I'm having trouble with, so I'll just uncouple the hi-VHF antenna from the combiner and aim it independently from the UHF antenna. I just ordered it and I won't get it until Friday.


----------



## systems2000

By the information below, I don't think it's of any use on any channel below 14 or above 51.



> Quote:
> Signals above 700 MHz are filtered to minimize detection of cellular and post 2009 wireless broadband transmissions. Broadcasts below 470mhz are filtered to minimize detection of amateur radio, public safety, FM radio etc…


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bernieoc* /forum/post/16216902
> 
> 
> Would this meter work on low vhf - I have PBS staying on CH 3 and it always gives me problems.
> 
> Bernieoc



The meter is not at all useful with weak signals. It is designed to peak up on the strongest signal.


----------



## dvansowhat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16218515
> 
> 
> The meter is not at all useful with weak signals. It is designed to peak up on the strongest signal.



I can tell you first hand that this meter will not work in fringe areas. I hooked up the clearstream100 to my wineguard 7698 in my fringe area and it failed to pick up any signal at all. I am 43 miles to towers and nothing registers on it. The CS100 has 4 leds that start at 60,70,80, and 90. Any signal below that as mine is does not register on it. You are right that it is not what I thought it would do. Just use your tv meter to get the best signal.


----------



## jsmar

I am adding a Hi VHF antenna to my CM4228 that I have already installed. I've also decided after reading some more details on antenna grounding that I should upgrade/fix the grounding on the CM4228. I am going to replace the 10 gauge copper with 8 gauge copper, and also replace the 4 foot ground rod with an 8 foot ground rod.


So, my understanding is that the ground wire from the antenna mast is supposed to be one continuous piece of wire from the mast to the ground rod, i.e. no splices/connections. I kind of did this with my initial installation, with the exception being that I ran the ground wire through the grounding block for the RG6 coax where it entered the house and then continued on up to the antenna mast. So there are no breaks in the wire, but it is serving two purposes. Is this OK, or is it a really bad idea? In a sense I may be introducing induced current from the mast into the RG6 shield, but that same current would probably be present at the antenna connection also.


I am going to be putting up a second mast for the VHF antenna (the CM4228 is mounted on the front of my chimney, with attachments above and below the antenna, making it really stable, whereas the VHF antenna being a Yagi will have to go above the chimney, attached to a different mast). So I will be running at least two, and possibly four separate ground wires (depending on if it is OK to run the ground wire through the coax grounding block) down to the grounding rod. Is it OK if I lightly twist these wires together (I understand you don't want any significant bends in the wire), or should I try to keep all of them separated?


If it is not a good idea to twist the wires together then I am thinking it would be a good idea to run a separate ground wire between the two masts. Does that make sense?


The other recommendation I've seen is that you should run a wire between the antenna ground rod and the house electrical ground rod. It also said that this wire should not run inside the house. Well that is a problem for me. My house was built (1987) before an external ground rod was required, so the ground wire from the circuit breaker box in the garage runs through the wall into the basement and is attached to the cold water supply pipe where it enters through the foundation. So, if I want to tie the two grounds together (which makes a lot of sense regarding potential ground loops) I need to run the connecting wire inside the house. Should I do that? If so, should I run it directly from the antenna ground rod to the cold water intake (a really long run), or can I run it to the circuit breaker box and connect to the ground bus there (and yes I know the dangers involved in working inside the circuit breaker box)?


----------



## 300ohm

Look here, scroll down to "The NEC requirement" http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html 





> Quote:
> I am going to replace the 10 gauge copper with 8 gauge copper, and also replace the 4 foot ground rod with an 8 foot ground rod.



6 gauge is the NEC requirement.


----------



## jsmar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16220903
> 
> 
> Look here, scroll down to "The NEC requirement" http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html
> 
> 
> 6 gauge is the NEC requirement.



6 gauge is the requirement for connecting between the house ground and the ground rod. 8 gauge can be used from the antenna to the grounding rod. But thanks for the pointer, it is the first one that actually showed connecting the antenna grounding rod to the house ground in the circuit breaker box. That will save me a lot of copper wire (6 gauge copper is over $1 per foot).


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jsmar* /forum/post/16220552
> 
> 
> So, my understanding is that the ground wire from the antenna mast is supposed to be one continuous piece of wire from the mast to the ground rod, i.e. no splices/connections. I kind of did this with my initial installation, with the exception being that I ran the ground wire through the grounding block for the RG6 coax where it entered the house and then continued on up to the antenna mast. So there are no breaks in the wire, but it is serving two purposes. Is this OK, or is it a really bad idea? In a sense I may be introducing induced current from the mast into the RG6 shield, but that same current would probably be present at the antenna connection also.
> 
> 
> I am going to be putting up a second mast for the VHF antenna (the CM4228 is mounted on the front of my chimney, with attachments above and below the antenna, making it really stable, whereas the VHF antenna being a Yagi will have to go above the chimney, attached to a different mast). So I will be running at least two, and possibly four separate ground wires (depending on if it is OK to run the ground wire through the coax grounding block) down to the grounding rod. Is it OK if I lightly twist these wires together (I understand you don't want any significant bends in the wire), or should I try to keep all of them separated?
> 
> 
> If it is not a good idea to twist the wires together then I am thinking it would be a good idea to run a separate ground wire between the two masts. Does that make sense?
> 
> 
> The other recommendation I've seen is that you should run a wire between the antenna ground rod and the house electrical ground rod. It also said that this wire should not run inside the house. Well that is a problem for me. My house was built (1987) before an external ground rod was required, so the ground wire from the circuit breaker box in the garage runs through the wall into the basement and is attached to the cold water supply pipe where it enters through the foundation. So, if I want to tie the two grounds together (which makes a lot of sense regarding potential ground loops) I need to run the connecting wire inside the house. Should I do that? If so, should I run it directly from the antenna ground rod to the cold water intake (a really long run), or can I run it to the circuit breaker box and connect to the ground bus there (and yes I know the dangers involved in working inside the circuit breaker box)?



The way you passed the antenna grounding wire through the coax grounding block is correct.


Use a split bolt connector to join the grounding wires on the roof and bring a single wire down. That will give a good connection if you clean the wires to bright metal and make the connection tight. You would want to anchor this connector to a mast or mount and have the single wire coming out anchored as well. Run a single wire to the farthest point needed and make the connections there.


If your grounding electrode for the house is a water pipe then the bonding wire for your antenna ground has to enter the house. You could fix this bonding wire to the antenna grounding rod.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jsmar* /forum/post/16221285
> 
> 
> 6 gauge is the requirement for connecting between the house ground and the ground rod. 8 gauge can be used from the antenna to the grounding rod. But thanks for the pointer, it is the first one that actually showed connecting the antenna grounding rod to the house ground in the circuit breaker box. That will save me a lot of copper wire (6 gauge copper is over $1 per foot).



I would not bring a bonding wire for ground into the breaker box. Going into there to make a connection is an unnecessary hazard. Making a connection like that in there is an unnecessary hazard.


The antenna grounding rod has to be bonded to your house electrical system ground, this can be done at the grounding electrode (water pipe or grounding rod) or to the conductor connecting the grounding bar of your breaker box to its grounding electrode. Connect to the grounding wire just outside your breaker box if that is the closest point.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> (6 gauge copper is over $1 per foot).



Only if you buy it at Lowes or Home Depot. I recently bought some from my local electrical supply house for 32 cents a foot. I was quoted 28 cents from the other local electrical supply house further down the road. Just look in your yellow pages and call around for prices. On 50 feet, that amounts to over $30 in savings, so its worth your while to do so.



> Quote:
> Connect to the grounding wire just outside your breaker box if that is the closest point.



Yeah, theres no sense to remove the metal face place on the breaker box to make an internal connection.


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16221953
> 
> 
> Only if you buy it at Lowes or Home Depot. I recently bought some from my local electrical supply house for 32 cents a foot



Around here a lot of them won't sell to anyone not "in the business". It's a racket.


----------



## systems2000

Always use the shortest possible distance between bonding points. There is nothing wrong with daisy-chaining your ground wire, as long as you have the right size wire. I believe the NEC rules require that there is no more than 5' distance after breaching into the interior of the building before you need to bond the ground wire. Use another split-bolt to bond to the house ground.


As for bends, think of it like a high-speed highway. You want smooth gradual bends, not 25mph type.


All grounding needs to be tied together to prevent electrical shock.



> Quote:
> Where a ground connection has a significant resistance, the approximation of zero potential is no longer valid. Stray voltages or earth potential rise effects will occur, which may create noise in signals or if large enough will produce an electric shock hazard.


----------



## SkiSmuggs

Does VHF or UHF benefit more from height, or does it make a difference? I'm trying to decide which antenna to put at the top of my mast.


300ohm:

Great, thanks!


----------



## 300ohm

UHF does. It takes more power to transmit at UHF frequencies for the same distance. Also, UHF signals follow the curve of the earth less than VHF frequencies.


And UHF antennas are smaller and lighter than VHF antennas. So you would want the UHF antenna on top of the mast above the VHF antenna.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SkiSmuggs* /forum/post/16222909
> 
> 
> Does VHF or UHF benefit more from height, or does it make a difference? I'm trying to decide which antenna to put at the top of my mast.



Each situation is unique. But, if your signals are strong enough, it won't matter.


First compare your tvfool data at the two heights and see what happens to the two bands.


Next, consider if there are any ground reflections that may make the VHF antenna work better at a lower height.


Finally, try it both ways to see which one works better.


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SkiSmuggs* /forum/post/16222909
> 
> 
> Does VHF or UHF benefit more from height, or does it make a difference? I'm trying to decide which antenna to put at the top of my mast.



look at your signal prediction reports to get what info it has. vhf can bend around terrain some.


tv signals can be reflected from the ground surface or objects causing constructive and destructive interference. each antenna's best spot might be your height determining factor, a foot or two up or down could make a big difference.


----------



## willscary

I have been entirely too busy to post lately, but after the initial transition date, I noticed something...


Fox 55 in Wausau, WI was never allowed to broadcast in digital because it was a station that was created after the original DTV Table of Allotments was created. When the February 17th date came around, they began broadcasting on physical channel 31. It took them a few weeks to iron out some problems and then they were up and running at full strength. I installed a dedicated antenna for this channel. I ran it through a pre-amp and down to my basement where I used a channel 31 Jointenna to combine it to the rest of my system.


The Jointenna works great. In fact, it works better for me than advertized. The Jointenna is supposed to do exactly what it does...insert a single channel antenna into a system without combiner loss. However, according to the manufacturer and retailers (as well as here on the forums) the Jointenna will attenuate adjacent channels due to its crossover slope. In fact, I have read in many places that it will attenuate channels up to 3 channels on either side of the inserted channel.


I have not seen this. I have a very weak and snowy low power religious station on channel 30 and a full power analog network channel that has not yet gone dark on channel 32. Neither of these adjacent signals have been decreased by the Jointenna as far as I can tell. The low power station looks the same as it did and the network station is not ghosting or showing any other artifacts of a weaker signal.


I just thought I would report that my adjacent channels seem unchanged after installing the jointenna. All other channels are still as strong as they were and the new channel is also perfect, even though it is 62 miles away and is received by an antenna mounted in my attic.


Bill


----------



## serndipity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16218515
> 
> 
> The meter is not at all useful with weak signals. It is designed to peak up on the strongest signal.



Could not agree more....you get what you pay for.


The only situation, I can think of, where the Antennas Direct SM100 HDTV Signal Finder might be useful....is where all the signals of interest come from the same transmitting tower....and even then, it's all about strength and not quality (i.e. multi-path).


Here is a DIY article using the LTC5508.

http://www.newsvhf.com/news0401.pdf 


I thought about injecting an off-set signal (from a signal generator) into a mixer and then some filtering, one could make this into a frequency selective device.


However, the bottom line....(although this would help with directionality).....save your money and use whatever signal meter(s) are available in your tuner.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> ...insert a single channel antenna into a system without combiner loss.



There is always a loss and never a profit, heh.




> Quote:
> In fact, I have read in many places that it will attenuate channels up to 3 channels on either side of the inserted channel.
> 
> 
> I have not seen this.



Thats good to know. I didnt think they could clip the frequencies so closely with a mass produced device.



> Quote:
> Here is a DIY article using the LTC5508.



Cool looking bent tower !



> Quote:
> However, the bottom line....(although this would help with directionality).....save your money and use whatever signal meter(s) are available in your tuner.



Yep. And factor in the signal meters in your decision when buying a new TV set.


----------



## willscary

"There is always a loss and never a profit, heh."


OK...yes, there may be a .5db loss, but not the 3.5db loss you get with a normal splitter turned backwards and definitely no interference between the 4 antennas I have hooked together.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *willscary* /forum/post/16226619
> 
> 
> I ran it through a pre-amp and down to my basement where I used a channel 31 Jointenna to combine it to the rest of my system.
> 
> 
> The Jointenna works great. In fact, it works better for me than advertized. The Jointenna is supposed to do exactly what it does...insert a single channel antenna into a system without combiner loss. However, according to the manufacturer and retailers (as well as here on the forums) the Jointenna will attenuate adjacent channels due to its crossover slope. In fact, I have read in many places that it will attenuate channels up to 3 channels on either side of the inserted channel.
> 
> 
> I have not seen this. I have a very weak and snowy low power religious station on channel 30 and a full power analog network channel that has not yet gone dark on channel 32. Neither of these adjacent signals have been decreased by the Jointenna as far as I can tell. The low power station looks the same as it did and the network station is not ghosting or showing any other artifacts of a weaker signal.
> 
> 
> I just thought I would report that my adjacent channels seem unchanged after installing the jointenna. All other channels are still as strong as they were and the new channel is also perfect, even though it is 62 miles away and is received by an antenna mounted in my attic.




From all I've read here, your situation is an anomoly (sp?). Perhaps there's more going on there than you realize.


In my own situation, I can't insert my channel 30 jointenna into my lead because it knocks my channel 33 signal down from a perfectly reliable level of 87 to a cutting in and out level that tops out at 62. On the other hand, my channel 14 jointenna admits enough of channel 17 into my lead that I may not need to buy a channel 17 jointenna ! And when I bought one of my others (41 I think) it worked so poorly that I had to send it back into the factory (not the vendor) to have its tuning reworked.


If you opened this issue up for more discussion, I bet we could hear many stories of success and failure regarding jointennas. It's a pity that there doesn't seem to be any product in between the jointenna and the Tinlee products.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> It's a pity that there doesn't seem to be any product in between the jointenna and the Tinlee products.



True and totally sympathsize, but consider the total market $ sales a year for that type of specific product. Not that impressive.


----------



## bciocco




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IDRick* /forum/post/16204196
> 
> 
> Please do report back. It's always good to know how things work out and we may be of additional assistance.
> 
> 
> All the best,
> 
> 
> Rick




I installed the AntennaCraft HBU22 this morning. I faced it North, with the hope of getting the Summerville and Ladson stations (18 & 26). I was expecting to get 20 as well (off the back side as it is due south). According to TV fool, 20 is only 5.8 miles away.

From the attic, the HBU22 really does not pick up anything I did not already get on the homemade antenna (also in the attic w/ 25 ft. of new RG6).


I may try the HBU22 on the roof, as I initially planned. If I do, I will write up the results.

Thanks for the help and suggestions.


----------



## PCTools

My home is located on the highest elevation in the city. Unfortunately, the city is installing a 285’ water tower about 1500’ from me home. In other words, this monster will be next to my home.


Now, thinking like a total TV Geek, this may open the door for “catching” some DX signals. My stack of XG-91’s is 56’ in the air and would not be in direct sight of the water tower, so I am thinking the following:


1) Purchase a pair of the Antenna’s Direct DB8’s and stack them horizontally pointing them at an angle which aligns them to directly point at the edges of the water tower. They will only need to be off the ground by 10 foot or so as they are in direct sight of the tower and the purpose is to catch scatter.


2) I am choosing the DB8’s as they have a wider beamwidth. Actually, stacking them vertical would help more.


The goal is to catch reflected scatter off the sides of the water tower. Since, I am so close to the tower, I think this experiment will actually have some positive results.


Ideas or comments..


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bciocco* /forum/post/16231211
> 
> 
> I installed the AntennaCraft HBU22 this morning. I faced it North, with the hope of getting the Summerville and Ladson stations (18 & 26).



?????


Try pointing it West North West to get 18 & 26.


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bciocco* /forum/post/16231211
> 
> 
> I installed the AntennaCraft HBU22 this morning. I faced it North, with the hope of getting the Summerville and Ladson stations (18 & 26). I was expecting to get 20 as well (off the back side as it is due south). According to TV fool, 20 is only 5.8 miles away.
> 
> From the attic, the HBU22 really does not pick up anything I did not already get on the homemade antenna (also in the attic w/ 25 ft. of new RG6).
> 
> 
> I may try the HBU22 on the roof, as I initially planned. If I do, I will write up the results.
> 
> Thanks for the help and suggestions.



Thanks for the update! Attic installations can be a bit dicey and require checking many locations for the hot spot. The hbu 22 will likely work much better on the roof, but even then, requires checking multiple mounting locations and heights to determine optimal mount location. Good luck and keep us posted!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Now, thinking like a total TV Geek, this may open the door for “catching” some DX signals.



You darn right you may ! I was thinking of getting a bounce off the Goodyear blimps that occasionally go by, but my crazy DXing days are over, heh.



> Quote:
> 2) I am choosing the DB8’s as they have a wider beamwidth. Actually, stacking them vertical would help more.



Quit spending money and build your own DBGHs or one of mclapps M8's, heh.


----------



## Pagoona

Is the DB2 available in any B&M stores? I can only find it online.


----------



## bciocco




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tobias Ziegler* /forum/post/16232136
> 
> 
> ?????
> 
> 
> Try pointing it West North West to get 18 & 26.



I tried West and that didn't work. WNW has a few trusses in the way. Based on my attic construction, I am pretty much stuck w/ N, S, E, or W.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> From all I've read here, your situation is an anomoly (sp?). Perhaps there's more going on there than you realize.



Perhaps his is mistuned.


From the hdprimer site:



> Quote:
> Join-Tenna - These devices, made by Channel Master, are single channel diplexers (combiners). They permit a single channel antenna to share a feed-line with a wideband antenna. However they mess up reception for the adjacent channels. Thus a Join-Tenna cannot be used for a channel adjacent to another channel you want. (Since there are gaps between channels 4-5, 6-7, and 13-14, this restriction does not apply to them.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Channel Master website says Join-Tennas are available only for channels 6-69. But units for 2-6 are sometimes findable. Join-tenna is missing from the new Channel Master catalog, so these devices might not be available much longer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a unique Join-Tenna for each VHF channel. But UHF Join-Tennas are adjustable, and there are just three of them for covering 14-29, 30-49, and 50-69. The seller will adjust it for you. But they tend to be a little slow, so acquiring one of these can take some time. It is usually not practical for you to adjust it yourself.


----------



## willscary

If it was mistuned, something would definitely be messed up. However, as I said, all of my digital channels are coming in perfectly and the adjacent analog signals are coming in the same as before as far as I can tell. I would have expected to lose them completely, and I can't see any difference.


The all channel UHF points to 92 degrees magnetic while the new channel 31 UHF points at 326 degrees magnetic. The station it receives while mounted in my attic is 62 miles away and is 2 edge reception.


You can say what you want, but I am not seeing considerable loss at the two adjacent channels and the channel it is tuned to is received at 100%.


Bill


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> But UHF Join-Tennas are adjustable, and there are just three of them for covering 14-29, 30-49, and 50-69. The seller will adjust it for you.



Hmmm. Which of the three join-tennas do you have ?


----------



## willscary

Mine is factory tuned for channel 31, so I am sure it would be a 30-49 model. Actually, this is the only one with adjacent channels for me, and one of them goes away post transition. I also have a channel 11 Jointenna and have ordered a channel 16 Jointenna.


----------



## 300ohm

There was a discussion of the join-tenna here earlier : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...546066&page=44 


Have you tried reversing it to see the effects ?


----------



## avhed

I have seen a triple vertical stack of antennas. How much more gain is had over a stack of 2.

I know having a double stack has 3db (minus coupler & cable loss) gain over a single array.


----------



## Tobias Ziegler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bciocco* /forum/post/16234508
> 
> 
> I tried West and that didn't work. WNW has a few trusses in the way. Based on my attic construction, I am pretty much stuck w/ N, S, E, or W.



hmmm......there's something about this that reminds me about an old joke....something about a guy that lost a valueable coin in his basement, but he looks for it outside because the light is better there.










You might try to build your own antenna. There's a couple of designs online here that do not layout horizontally, they're mostly vertical (the DBGHs or one of mclapps). Think of a thick garment bag....if it can be hung in your attic, broadside to the WNW, then you have a good shot of one of the home made antennas working.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I have seen a triple vertical stack of antennas. How much more gain is had over a stack of 2.
> 
> I know having a double stack has 3db (minus coupler & cable loss) gain over a single array.



What Ive seen from modeling with a triple stack, it gives little to almost none additional gain, especially considering the extra effort. You want to stack in pairs to maintain the symetry.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *avhed* /forum/post/16237145
> 
> 
> I have seen a triple vertical stack of antennas. How much more gain is had over a stack of 2?



The theory says 1.7 db.


The actual gain depends on the stacking distance and combiner losses.


----------



## Konrad2

Quiz time! Let's play What's wrong with this picture?


A










B










C










D










E










Frame A is a night scene, it is supposed to be dark.


----------



## jtbell

D looks like what I get on my Channel Master or Zenith CECB when the signal is right on the edge of the "digital cliff."


E looks like an analog channel with some impulse noise.


----------



## 300ohm

The others look like tuner troubles. Have you tried other tuners ?


----------



## rabbit73

I love D. It looks like an impressionistic painting. Do it again.


C looks like horiz sync problem.


B looks like harmonic from another xmtr on that freq.


I agree with jtbell on E.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/16241840
> 
> 
> B looks like harmonic from another xmtr on that freq.



The OPB logo looks fine. It's a problem with the program itself.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/16241840
> 
> 
> I love D. It looks like an impressionistic painting.



As opposed to the blocky "Mondrian" school of many other receivers.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *avhed* /forum/post/16237145
> 
> 
> I have seen a triple vertical stack of antennas. How much more gain is had over a stack of 2.
> 
> I know having a double stack has 3db (minus coupler & cable loss) gain over a single array.



A typical, inexpensive two-way RF Combiner/Splitter contains a Hybrid Transformer

and an internal resistor that dissipates mis-match energy.

If the signals on the two ports are perfectly EQUAL and IN-PHASE, there

is no mis-match energy wasted and the output is 3 dB higher than either input,

less the internal losses, hence 2.5 dB is MAX combining gain.


If the two input signals are not perfectly matched in signal strength and PHASE,

the difference is wasted in the internal mis-match resistor. If one of the antennas

happens to be located in a multipath null, contributing very little signal to one

of the ports, the mis-match loss could negate all combining loss, resulting

in a net LOSS of perhaps 3.5 dB. [The same loss as pointing in different directions.]
http://www.macom.com/Application%20Notes/pdf/m568.pdf 
http://www.macom.com/Application%20Notes/pdf/m560.pdf 


In a THREE-WAY RF Combiner/Splitter there are a pair of two-way Combiners.

The first operates as described above for the first pair of antennas.

The second combines the OUTPUT of the first two-way Combiner with

the signal coming from the third antenna....unfortunately, when the inputs

to the first combiner are equal and in-phase, the output signal will be

2.5 dB HIGHER than the signal coming from the third antenna, resulting

in excessive mis-match loss. TWO antennas will nearly always be better than THREE.


Four antenna combiners performance is even more "complicated".....which

is why expensive Stripline Couplers make more sense....they only have a few

tenths of a dB internal loss and DO NOT require matching of signal levels...


That said, there is an additional factor to consider....DIVERSITY.

Multipath nulls can vary between antenna locations and heights, esp. in attics.

One of the antennas may pick up Chxx but not Chyy and the other antenna

picks up Chyy but not Chxx. Even though there is a loss in the combiner,

the signals may be strong enough so you receive both channels,

whereas with only one antenna you would not get both.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> As opposed to the blocky "Mondrian" school of many other receivers.



Or a Monet, when he was really, really drunk ??


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *samstom* /forum/post/16040319
> 
> 
> Hey guys,
> 
> Did anyone modify their 4228hd as what Ken did to improve their gains?



Samstom, your preferences do not allow you to receive private messages. I cannot respond to yours.


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16242820
> 
> 
> Four antenna combiners performance is even more "complicated".....which
> 
> is why expensive Stripline Couplers make more sense....they only have a few
> 
> tenths of a dB internal loss and DO NOT require matching of signal levels and phase...



A stripline coupler doesn't require matching signal levels, but still requires matching phase.


----------



## holl_ands

Oops, I fixed post above...


----------



## holl_ands

Ken Nist updated his analysis of the new CM4228HD to include VHF:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html 


He found VHF performance of unmodified CM4228HD was much

better than RabbitEars, but had gain loss notches on Ch7 and Ch9

(Ch9 loss due to formation of a bi-polar radiation pattern).

For comparison, original CM4228 had gain notches on Ch7 and

a small portion on the boundary between Ch11 & Ch12.


He analyzed alternative modifications to the CM4228HD to

improve UHF performance (replace feedline with combiner)

and isolated the reflectors from the rest of the antenna to

eliminate the Ch9 gain loss notch.

[But he didn't rerun to determine effect on UHF performance...]


Hmmm, so what happens when isolate reflectors on original CM4228???


----------



## samstom

Hi towerguy,

Can u check ur PM?


----------



## oldsyd

A - 60Hz hum? Poor analog retransmission? VITS?


B - More analog VITS? 2 different signals?


C - High error rate?


D - Multipath?


E - Poorly skewed satellite feed?


----------



## Konrad2

> Quiz time! Let's play What's wrong with this picture?


A is NTSC channel 10. I only noticed the problem on dark

night scenes like this. And of these problems, it is the only

one I have found a fix for. The problem with A is a bit subtle,

perhaps it isn't showing up on your screens. Using the color

editor in xv and playing with intensity shows the problem more

clearly.


A2










rabbit73 writes:

> I love D. It looks like an impressionistic painting.


I was thinking abstract, but impressionist could work. What does

it give you an impression of?


> Do it again.


This one isn't quite as good.


F










And the quails (I think?) caught in a time-space rift.


G










I love the various guesses. At least we can get a little

entertainment out of these problems.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16257838
> 
> 
> Ken Nist updated his analysis of the new CM4228HD to include VHF:
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html
> 
> ...



Has anyone in a market already carrying digital VHF highband compared their actual spectrum analyzer plots with any of the 4228 VHF hghband model's computer generated predictions? My local 7, 9, 11 and 13 will eventually be digital, and I will be surprised if any of the computer simulated plots come close to approximating reality.


----------



## nybbler

I'm going to go out on a limb and say A is multipath, with the lines of light and dark being a moire pattern rather than harmonic interference. Only on night scenes because the moire pattern is caused by some periodicity in the source noise that appears in low light; in lighter scenes you'd see barely perceptible ghosting. But then, I could be totally off base.


E is impulse noise. The source is periodic and intermittent, about 120Hz. Could be a noisy AC source (once every peak), or an engine of some sort.


B looks like a failing amplifier.


D and F look like a weak digital signal.


C looks like a problem on their end, as does G.


----------



## mattd241

Having grown up in the days of taking turns holding the rabbit ears and aluminum foil with my siblings (I'm 50), it took me a lot of time to decide if I wanted to make an investment in a UHF antenna set-up. Seeing how this original topic invited posting of experiences and equipment, I figured I'd share mine.


I got sick of paying my cable company $120/mo for cable TV w/Internet, with another increase planned shortly. With the help of this site (I lurked for quite some time reading what other people thought of equipment), I purchased the following:


Channel Master 4228HD UHF Antenna ($64.95 @ Warren Electronics)

Wineguard RCDT09A Digital To Analog Converter ($19.99 @ Amazon w/coupon)

Channel Master 7777 Pre-Amplifier ($51.99 @ Warren Electronics)

Channel Master 9067 Chimney Mounts ($21.16/pr @ Warren Electronics)

NTE TB-105 Rotor Support Bearing ($21.95 @ Warren Electronics)

2 - 10' Sections of 1 1/2" Conduit Tubing ($18.98 @ Lowes)


In addition, I was able to secure a FREE Channel Master Rotator through a local advertisement and a FREE VHF antenna that a neighbor was throwing out (in excellent condition)


Shipping for all these items came to $34.94

*Total Investment: $212.01*


Forgetting the death defying act of a 50 y/o climbing onto a steep pitched roof with no help and somehow actually hauling the completed set-up in one piece and mounting it without breaking his neck, or having a heart attack, these were the results:


19 HD Channels (Crystal Clear)

8 Analog Channels (2 Good, 4 Fair, 2 Poor)


I am amazed at all the stations I am bringing in!


I sit in a valley. My home is abutted against the bottom of a ridge about 100' high behind me. In front of me about 1/8 mile away is another ridge about 150' high. Both are in direct line of the transmitters, so bringing in these HD channels is unbelievable to me.


Yes, I'm going to miss my History, Discovery, and Financial channels that cable provided, but considering I'm going to save $70/mo (I'm keeping my cable internet connection), I'm willing to do without them if it means not giving the cable company $840/yr to watch television!


As for me, I'm spreading the word to my friends that OTA Digital is an entirely different animal from the days of Analog TV. I had a hard time believing that reception would be much better than what I remembered. I'm an enthusiast now!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Channel Master 4228HD UHF Antenna ($64.95 @ Warren Electronics)



You may want to look at the link holl_ands posted above and get even more stations. At stock, the CM4228HD is little better than the CM4221HD.



> Quote:
> Ken Nist updated his analysis of the new CM4228HD to include VHF:
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/16264471
> 
> 
> Has anyone in a market already carrying digital VHF highband compared their actual spectrum analyzer plots with any of the 4228 VHF hghband model's computer generated predictions? My local 7, 9, 11 and 13 will eventually be digital, and I will be surprised if any of the computer simulated plots come close to approximating realuity.



L.A. also doesn't transition until 13 June...grumble, grumble....


BTW: I've also heard VHF doesn't penetrate into buildings as well as UHF,

something counter-intuitive, but apparently UHF can diffract into a building

via windows better than VHF.....but I'll bet VHF leaks through stucco better....


======================================

The NOISE component of the propagation equation is simple to calculate for UHF,

but fluctuates quite a bit at Hi-VHF and is exceedingly uncertain at Lo-VHF.

Man-made noise can vary 20+ dB from location to location depending on

whether located near an industrial area with many arc-welders and lots of

brush-type motors (aka spark-gap transmitters), fluorescent lights, switching

power supplies (PCs), AC power lines...also vehicles (YMMV...a lot!!!):
http://www.mstv.org/docs/techinfo.pdf 
http://www.its.bldrdoc.gov/pub/ntia-...390/02-390.pdf 


See section 4 in fol. for summary of "Radio Noise", Rec. ITU-R P.372:
http://www2.ofcom.org.uk/static/arch...se/mmnoise.pdf 

Apparently Figure 4-2 is a (developed?) world-wide average (really?????).

It may be a one size fits all graph, but it's apparently all we got.....


Atmospheric noise is also inadequately modeled. In the HF band (below Ch2)

it fluctuates 40+ dB between locations and is seasonal (summer lightning storms).

It seems to be ignored in current FCC model, although it is a problem for Lo-VHF.


Fam(dB) indicates how much the (world-wide?, long term averaged) noise

exceeds the Thermal Noise floor. For UHF, Fam(dB) is assumed to be zero.

For Hi-VHF, the average noise is 5-20 dB higher, from rural to business,

and Lo-VHF noise is even higher.


Since TVFool (et.al.) doesn't ask if rural vs business and whether summer or not,

I assume they *HAVE NOT* incorporated these significant refinements re man-made

and atmospheric noise (also leaves out clutter loss per FCC OET-72)...YMMV...


In comments to FCC, Hammett & Edison (for Echostar) indicated that

the FCC's ILLR (ITM) Propagation Prediction Program did NOT adequately

address VHF Man-Made Noise levels:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-05-199A3.pdf 
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/document...FCC-05-199.pdf 

Search for "man made noise".


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> BTW: I've also heard VHF doesn't penetrate into buildings as well as UHF,
> 
> something counter-intuitive, but apparently UHF can diffract into a building
> 
> via windows better than VHF.....but I'll bet VHF leaks through stucco better....



Yeah, I just recently read very something similiar about the difference between the 2.4 GHz wifi band and the 5 GHz wifi band. It does seem counter-intuitive to me too, but may be true.



> Quote:
> Atmospheric noise is also inadequately modeled. In the HF band (below Ch2) it fluctuates 40+ dB between locations and is seasonal (summer lightning storms).It seems to be ignored in current FCC model, although it is a problem for Lo-VHF.



I have noticed that in the past with my analog channel 3, which goes away in June. My analog channel 6, which will remain on channel 6 for digital, didnt seem to be very affected by lightning storms. It will be interesting to see the effect on digital.


----------



## SkiSmuggs

I posted this $30 special on the Antennas Direct SM100 meter a few days ago, and it wasn't well reviewed in this forum. http://antennasdirect.com/sm100.html 


I got one and tried it at two locations. At the first location, I have clear LOS to the towers located 14 miles away, using a hi-VHF and a UHF screen combined. The only VHF on ch 13 had been dropping out. I connected the meter and immediately saw the LED bouncing between 60 and 80. I swapped out the coax and got a stable 80 signal. Tried aiming the antenna off angle with no change to signal strength. Result: the meter helped me quickly diagnose a bad coax.

The second location is a remote garage on the same property with trees between the antenna and towers. The meter allowed me to aim the antenna so that it occasionally peaked at 70, but the end result was that I saw that I needed to move the antenna 18" to get past a cedar tree that I hadn't realized was in the path. I had actually been off at my guess of the tower location because I didn't have LOS. Result: the meter helped me quickly determine that the antenna needed to be moved.

Final analysis: The meter definitely has limitations with LED lights for each 10 units of signal so a high degree of accuracy is not possible, but, for $30, it helped me quickly resolve a couple of problems by myself that would have taken two patient people a lot longer.


----------



## Konrad2

> A typical, inexpensive two-way RF Combiner/Splitter contains

> a Hybrid Transformer and an internal resistor that dissipates

> mis-match energy.


Can anyone recommend a web page that has a schematic for these,

along with the stripline couplers, diplexors, filters, etc. ?


For one thing, I've been wondering why a 4-way splitter has more loss

(7.4 dB) than putting 2-ways in series (3.5 + 3.5 = 7.0 dB).


----------



## Konrad2

> BTW: I've also heard VHF doesn't penetrate into buildings

> as well as UHF, something counter-intuitive, but apparently

> UHF can diffract into a building via windows better than VHF

> .....but I'll bet VHF leaks through stucco better....


VHF definitely gets through foil-backed insulation better than UHF.

And would get through most (all?) building materials better.


Perhaps someone has a shielded building with a window large enough

for a UHF aperture, but not large enough for VHF? Or has some

VHF specific problem (interference?) but is blaming the building?


----------



## Konrad2

I've read that you can get extra directors for the XG91

to increase the directionality/gain. Has anyone modeled this?

I'd be interested in seeing the plots. In particular

the new beamwidth would be useful to know, and of course

the gain.


I've also read that this makes the antenna floppy/droopy,

reducing the improvement. Is there a fix for this?


I've been recommending the XG91, and some people could

benefit from even more gain so it would be nice to

know if the extra directors would be a useful addition.


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/16271898
> 
> 
> I've also read that this makes the antenna floppy/droopy,
> 
> reducing the improvement. Is there a fix for this?



If you extended the mast above the antenna attachment point and put an eye or guy ring on it, you could attach a wire between the mast and the end of the boom to support it. You could probably stiffen the boom up by inserting some rod or tubing into it (especially between sections), if you could get the right size.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Has anyone modeled this?
> 
> I'd be interested in seeing the plots. In particular
> 
> the new beamwidth would be useful to know, and of course
> 
> the gain.



I havent modeled it in particular, but have modeled other antennas with directors. Basically, youll have to double the number of directors to get appreciable more gain, like 2db. That makes for a very long boom. The beamwidth will be narrower.



> Quote:
> I've also read that this makes the antenna floppy/droopy,
> 
> reducing the improvement. Is there a fix for this?



Youll need a good support boom structure to keep it in line. Taking all costs into consideration, youre much better off vertically stacking 2 XG91s.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/16271805
> 
> 
> > A typical, inexpensive two-way RF Combiner/Splitter contains
> 
> > a Hybrid Transformer and an internal resistor that dissipates
> 
> > mis-match energy.
> 
> 
> Can anyone recommend a web page that has a schematic for these,
> 
> along with the stripline couplers, diplexors, filters, etc. ?
> 
> 
> For one thing, I've been wondering why a 4-way splitter has more loss
> 
> (7.4 dB) than putting 2-ways in series (3.5 + 3.5 = 7.0 dB).



Typical RF Splitter/Combiner is a simple Transformer in a "Hybrid" configuration:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_transformer 


Fol. Minicircuits App Note has a good photo:
http://www.minicircuits.com/pages/pdfs/an10002.pdf 


Analysis is provided in fol. Philips App Note, sec 6.7:
http://www.et.fh-trier.de/diplom/Tea...PS/ECO6907.pdf 

High and Low Frequency Compensation via internal capacitors

can improve broad-band loss...but can block DC voltage (see Sec 5).

DC Pass Thru can be restored with inductor(s) from output to input(s).


RF Splitter/Combiner specs can oversimplify actual performance, and

different manufactures may chose to state either "typical", "minimum"

or "maximum guaranteed" numbers....so don't read too much into the tenths...


In App Note above insertion loss varies with frequency....it isn't a single number.


==================================

A Wilkinson Combiner is usually constructed with numerous stages in order

to cover a very wide bandwidth. Hence a copper circuit board material (a Stripline)

would normally be used for VHF/UHF bands, and rarely exceeds 2:1 bandwidth:
http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclo...multistage.cfm 


Note similarity between a two-port lumped element Wilkinson and a

quarter-wavelength coax balun:
http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclo..._splitters.cfm 


BTW: If you navigate to the description for Hybrids and Magic-T's, you'll

soon be scratching your head---that's because they're quite different at

microwave frequencies!!!!


===================================

Fol. has "typical" schematic for a high-band/low-band Diplexer Filter:
http://www.n6rk.com/diplexer/diplexer.pdf 

L-C values will depend on where the frequency split occurs....


----------



## j2fast

Afternoon all, looking for some advice since I'm finally going to replace my Radio Shack antenna. I've read through about the last 50 pages of this thread and I'm not any more clear on what I should do. A map from TVFool is below, I'm looking for the best solution to receiving channels in the 7-51 range. Do I need two antennas or will one do the trick, which models, etc, etc.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/16271805
> 
> 
> > A typical, inexpensive two-way RF Combiner/Splitter contains
> 
> > a Hybrid Transformer and an internal resistor that dissipates
> 
> > mis-match energy.
> 
> 
> Can anyone recommend a web page that has a schematic for these,
> 
> along with the stripline couplers, diplexors, filters, etc. ?
> 
> 
> For one thing, I've been wondering why a 4-way splitter has more loss
> 
> (7.4 dB) than putting 2-ways in series (3.5 + 3.5 = 7.0 dB).



If you want to combine multiple UHF antennas with the lowest possible loss consider a Gysel. It has more bandwidth than a Wilkinson.
http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/Gysel.cfm 

The same web site describes the Wilkinson in great detail.
http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclo..._splitters.cfm


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *j2fast* /forum/post/16273779
> 
> 
> I'm looking for the best solution to receiving channels in the 7-51 range. Do I need two antennas or will one do the trick, which models, etc, etc.



You have signals from so many directions you will need to cull the undesired signals before you get too deep. (Unless you want a rotor)


A 7-69 antenna (Winegard HD7694P) aimed at 97 degrees +/- will get 48-NBC 25-CBS 42-MyN 13-PBS 38-IND 43-FOX 50-IND 11-CW 16-LPTV & 29-LPTV.


That leaves out 9-NBC at 192, 7-CBS at 197, and a big handful of additional options. A small VHF high band (Antennacraft Y5-7-13) would get 7 and 9. Try combining them with a splitter backwards.


What more interests you?


----------



## j2fast




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16273982
> 
> 
> You have signals from so many directions you will need to cull the undesired signals before you get too deep. (Unless you want a rotor)
> 
> 
> A 7-69 antenna (Winegard HD7694P) aimed at 97 degrees +/- will get 48-NBC 25-CBS 42-MyN 13-PBS 38-IND 43-FOX 50-IND 11-CW 16-LPTV & 29-LPTV.
> 
> 
> That leaves out 9-NBC at 192, 7-CBS at 197, and a big handful of additional options. A small VHF high band (Antennacraft Y5-7-13) would get 7 and 9. Try combining them with a splitter backwards.
> 
> 
> What more interests you?



Oops meant to say I'm mainly concerned with the Pittsburgh stations (48, 25, 13, 43, 51) and then 9-NBC & 7-CBS that you listed would be nice. That said we have a rotor now which is fine. Like most I'm sure I'd like to be able to reach out to grab as many stations as possible.


To be even more specific 43-Fox at 94 and 51-ABC at 113 are big priorities. They are the only HD Fox and ABC broadcasts we receive and both can be weak at times (especially Fox). One other thing is that there are tall trees in all directions.


----------



## mlmahon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/16271898
> 
> 
> I've read that you can get extra directors for the XG91
> 
> to increase the directionality/gain. Has anyone modeled this?
> 
> I'd be interested in seeing the plots. In particular
> 
> the new beamwidth would be useful to know, and of course
> 
> the gain.
> 
> 
> I've also read that this makes the antenna floppy/droopy,
> 
> reducing the improvement. Is there a fix for this?
> 
> 
> I've been recommending the XG91, and some people could
> 
> benefit from even more gain so it would be nice to
> 
> know if the extra directors would be a useful addition.



I previously used 2 XG91's stacked vertically and saw some improvement over 1. Hurricane Ike folded my 40 foot mast in half. When I put it back up I only used one XG91 but I removed the center section from one and inserted it into the other, making it 4 sections instead of 3 and moved the mast clamp forward to balance the boom. From what I have observed, the gain is comparable (since there is no combiner loss) to the stacked pair but it is much more highly directional. I would estimate a beamwidth of about 10 degrees. The antenna is temporarily at 30 feet until I can get some help to push it all the way up to 50 feet (telescoping mast) and tension the guy wires. I'm pleased with the way it performs but I really have to fine tune the aiming with a rotor.










-ML


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16272689
> 
> 
> I havent modeled it in particular, but have modeled other antennas with directors. Basically, youll have to double the number of directors to get appreciable more gain, like 2db. That makes for a very long boom. The beamwidth will be narrower.
> 
> 
> 
> Youll need a good support boom structure to keep it in line. Taking all costs into consideration, youre much better off vertically stacking 2 XG91s.




Doubling the number of directors to get more gain only works on single channel antennas..on LPDAs or multiple channel antennas that does not hold true at all.....the directors are only resonant at one freq unless you tie them as active elements in a LPDA and then the gain does not rise as fast as a cut to channel yagi. I am not familiar with the XG91 but I suspect it is not a single channel yagi....


----------



## samstom

Hello Towerguy, Did u get my PM?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *samstom* /forum/post/16277411
> 
> 
> Hello Towerguy, Did u get my PM?



Yes. Look later.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dr Touchtone* /forum/post/16276520
> 
> 
> Doubling the number of directors to get more gain only works on single channel antennas..on LPDAs or multiple channel antennas that does not hold true at all.....the directors are only resonant at one freq unless you tie them as active elements in a LPDA and then the gain does not rise as fast as a cut to channel yagi. I am not familiar with the XG91 but I suspect it is not a single channel yagi....



True, so his gain would be even less, making adding more directors relatively pointless. It would be past the point of marginal utility.


(the XG91 has craploads of directors on it already, heh. Adding more directors also narrows the bandwidth of the Corner Reflector Yagi towards the wavelength of the directors.)


----------



## Konrad2

Looks like the guesses have stopped, so here is what I know

about the problems.


Frame A/A2 is KOPB NTSC channel 10 with interference. Channel 10

is 192-198 MHz, so the 1st harmonic of 96-99 MHz lands here.

Thus I suspected that the interference was from FM radio.

But! Multiple FM traps, both 95-108 and 88-108 MHz, failed to

remove it. I even put a couple directly at the tuner input with

male-to-male F adapters in case it was leaking through the RG6

quad shield. Still no luck. Could the FM be *that* strong?

Seems unlikely. Could it be a different frequency? 2nd harmonic

of 64-66 Mhz ? 3rd of 48-49.5 MHz ? Something other than

harmonic distortion? It turns out that the fix was adding

ferrite sleeves around the coax just before the tuner input.

Which implies that the problem was getting in via common mode.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braid-breaker 


I don't know how one would detect this problem with ATSC.

The ferrite sleeves cost less than $4 each, might help and

should not hurt anything, so I figure why not just put ferrite

on each tuner as standard procedure?


Frames B, C, and G are from the same recording. KOPB channel 27.

The ATSC/8VSB reception was perfect after FEC. So whatever caused

this was at KOPB, or upstream.


Frames D and F are from KRCW channel 33 with a ATSC/8VSB

reception problem. Signal strength 84% (should be fine)

Signal quality 90% (should be fine). Highly directional

antenna, 700 MHz low pass filter, multiple UVSJ in series

as high pass filter, ferrite. Usually comes in poorly on

two different model tuners. Occasionally comes in perfectly,

which would seem to rule out a problem with multipath.


Frame E is KOIN channel 40. The ATSC/8VSB reception was

perfect after FEC. So whatever caused this was at KOIN,

or upstream.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I don't know how one would detect this problem with ATSC.
> 
> The ferrite sleeves cost less than $4 each, might help and
> 
> should not hurt anything, so I figure why not just put ferrite
> 
> on each tuner as standard procedure?



A lot of TVs made from the 1970s to the 1990s did in fact have ferrite sleeves between the tuner and the antenna input terminals. I guess you just have to chalk that up to progress, heh. Ferrite sleeves in quantity are like pennies apiece, maybe less.


----------



## alphanguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16278454
> 
> 
> True, so his gain would be even less, making adding more directors relatively pointless. It would be past the point of marginal utility.
> 
> 
> (the XG91 has craploads of directors on it already, heh. Adding more directors also narrows the bandwidth of the Corner Reflector Yagi towards the wavelength of the directors.)



Once again, the "theoretical" idea of what an antenna is "supposed" to do has no basis in the real world. Mlmahon, myself, and bigmoose have added that extra boom section to the 91XG, and every one of us has had NOTICEABLE signal improvement.. in my case, the signal was far more stable than the 3 boom unit, and every bit as good as the stacked pair. With the 3 boom xg-91, I had windy day dropouts (not severe, but annoying) on ALL CHANNELS except ONE, were'e talking dropout on 8 channels. After I did the fourth boom section, all 9 channels are rock steady 24/7, no dropout even during severe thunderstorm. I reccommend the fourth boom section to ANYONE, it has worked like a dream for all who have tried it.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> After I did the fourth boom section, all 9 channels are rock steady 24/7, no dropout even during severe thunderstorm. I reccommend the fourth boom section to ANYONE, it had worked like a dream for all who have tried it.



OMG, you put 3 additional booms on the XG91 ? Do you have a pic ?


Are we talking apples to apples here or just the addition of 6 directors ?


> Quote:
> The 91XG has three sections of boom and 22 element assemblies. If you do not require the extreme gain offered by the 91XG you may elect not to attach the 3rd boom section and corresponding elements (Indicated by arrow) thereby rendering a still very effective but shorter & slightly less powerful 43XG.


 http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/9...structions.pdf 



> Quote:
> in my case, the signal was far more stable than the 3 boom unit, and every bit as good as the stacked pair.



If youre only talking about the addition of 6 directors, then I would have to say the stacking distance between the two antennas wasnt correct. (what distance did you use ?) Stacking two identical antennas correctly should get you 2.5 dbi in additional gain (3 dbi theorectical, but not in practice), which is way more than adding 6 more directors can get you.


----------



## alphanguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16297996
> 
> 
> OMG, you put 3 additional booms on the XG91 ? Do you have a pic ?
> 
> 
> Are we talking apples to apples here or just the addition of 6 directors ?
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/9...structions.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> If youre only talking about the addition of 6 directors, then I would have to say the stacking distance between the two antennas wasnt correct. (what distance did you use ?) Stacking two identical antennas correctly should get you 2.5 dbi in additional gain (3 dbi theorectical, but not in practice), which is way more than adding 6 more directors can get you.



I only added ONE extra boom section (6 more directors) what I'm saying is that the extra 6 directors gave me just as much reliability as the double stack, they were about equal. And of course, the XG-91 with the extra boom section is much less unsightly, and easier on my rotor motor.


----------



## Davird_Jr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alphanguy* /forum/post/16299653
> 
> 
> I only added ONE extra boom section (6 more directors) what I'm saying is that the extra 6 directors gave me just as much reliability as the double stack, they were about equal. And of course, the XG-91 with the extra boom section is much less unsightly, and easier on my rotor motor.



Where can one get ONE boom section for the XG-91? Sounds like exactly what I need.


----------



## puttsthree

I was given an old antenna (I believe it is a VHF/UHF/FM antenna, about 10 ft long and the arms expand out to 8 feet, and the arms are U-shaped) that was laying in a field for quite some time. It had a pre-amp that has exposed to the elements, and the connection from the antenna (rusted, and can not move the nuts) to the pre-amp is in bad shape. This antenna is in the attic (about 12 feet off the ground, and there are no windows in the attic), with very little room to move. I have it pointed in the general direction of the stations. I have attached the TV Fool map and I am aiming at the stations in the SE.


Right now I have flat wire stipped and wrapped around parallel wires (???, not really wires but connect the u-shaped arms to each other, and these wires are about 1 inch apart) I have purchased a pre-amp (RCA, not sure of the model number). I have one splitter and the cable run is less than 50 feet. Right now I can not pick up any TV stations (digital or analog).


I have a few questions:


Since the old connections from the antenna are so badly rusted, I was wondering where I can attach either flat wire (2 wire) or Coax to the antenna?


Is the pre-amp required?


Will I even be able to pick up any stations?


----------



## systems2000

I was talking with Rand Johnson at K&L Microwave today, about getting a couple of bandpass filters for 7-13 and 20-51. We'll see how that plays out.


I don't understand why manufacturers are taking so long to designed and produced digital OTA equipment for the Post-Transition configurations (ie. Pre-amps, Amps, Antennas, Filters, etc.). Specifically for VHF-Hi and UHF - limited to channel 51 at the high end.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I only added ONE extra boom section (6 more directors) what I'm saying is that the extra 6 directors gave me just as much reliability as the double stack, they were about equal. And of course, the XG-91 with the extra boom section is much less unsightly, and easier on my rotor motor.



I took Ken Nists XG91 model, found here : http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html and added 6 more of the exact same X type directors to it. The results :




















As you can see comparing the original raw gain chart to this one, adding 6 more directors gives you about .75dbi more in raw gain average. (and no additional gain on the channel 20 end) A lot less than the expected 2.5dbi practical increase from correctly ganging two identical antennas.

I suspect the spacing distance you used was off, producing less gain dead straight ahead and creating more side lobes. Similiar to the "Two Antenna Trick" found here : http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html but not in a good way for you.


Before you ask the next logical question, ie "What is the correct spacing distance for ganging two XG-91s ?", Ill answer it, heh.

That will take a long time, as even with a dual core E5300 at 3.5GHz, the computation time with that model takes about 2.5 hours per 38 channel sweep.


What spacing between the two antennas did you use ? And you did gang horizontally, correct ?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Once again, the "theoretical" idea of what an antenna is "supposed" to do has no basis in the real world.



What ?? Do you mean I should go back to experimenting with this kind of crap again, heh. (quite a few directors on the long boom are now missing)











Ive found that once the Law of Marginal Utility is broken, a fine must be paid, heh.


----------



## nybbler

A few photos of the antenna might help.


----------



## holl_ands

Where did you find Ken Nist's 91XG (aka XG91) NEC file?

I don't see it in http://www.hdtvprimer.com/SIMS/ 


Perhaps you can post the unmodified and modified NEC files....


----------



## 300ohm

Ill be darned, he took it down. I got mine last July, heh. This is a multi-page-posting one, so let me find a file hosting site.


Okay, heres the original file converted to 4nec2 :

http://www.wuala.com/300ohm/Documents/XG91a.nec 


And heres the one with 6 more directors added :

http://www.wuala.com/300ohm/Document...6Directors.nec 


See if you can download those OK.


----------



## puttsthree

At this time I do not have access to the antenna to get pictures. Here is a link to a pdf. On page 3 of the pdf document, fig. 1-6, the u-shaped arms are what the antenna has, and the rest of the antenna looks like fig. 1.5.
Fig. 4-3 basically shows how I have the antenna in the attic (except mine is not anchored, just laid on the rafters). Fig. 9-2 shows a pre-amp, attached to the antenna. The rusted out connections that are currently on my antenna are un-usable. I was wanting to know where another place to connet to the antenna might be located.


----------



## dbdoc

The only place to connect your lead-in cable is to the connection screws and nuts or the active element or elements they are connected to. Anywhere else and you are shorting the ends of your cable together. I guess you have cut loose the old pre, you don't want the antenna double terminated. I would work on those connection screws or the antenna is probably worthless. I couldn't read the image; looks like you are somewhere near Springfield, MO. You can get on a Radio Shack web site and find the approximate range for an antenna with that boom length.


----------



## PCTools

Mattd241,


Welcome aboard!


Enjoy the free OTA HD feeds...


----------



## puttsthree




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dbdoc* /forum/post/16318525
> 
> 
> The only place to connect your lead-in cable is to the connection screws and nuts or the active element or elements they are connected to. Anywhere else and you are shorting the ends of your cable together. I guess you have cut loose the old pre, you don't want the antenna double terminated. I would work on those connection screws or the antenna is probably worthless. I couldn't read the image; looks like you are somewhere near Springfield, MO. You can get on a Radio Shack web site and find the approximate range for an antenna with that boom length.



Thanks for the info. I did remove the old pre, and added a new one. I will try and work on the connection screws (the are pretty rusted though). I guess i could try to solder the lead-in cable to the rusted connection and see if that helps.


----------



## garskiff

As a Dish Network customer On Whidbey Island, Wa, I lost access to Channel 4 (ABC) due to a contract dispute between Dish and Fisher Broadcasting. I have a 722 HD DVR with ATSC tuner so I bought and mounted a ClearStream4 Antenna and hooked it up to the Antenna In. When I re-scanned locals, it brought in 30 channels including the Dish banned channel 4. At this point I was starting to think about dumping Dish and going OTA only. Signal strengths measured between 60 and 100 on stations that are as far away as 50 miles, but splitting the signal to feed two other TV's required some amplification so I bought a CM7777 and mounted it on my mast 6' below the antenna.


Weak and strong channels across the UHF band show no improvement in strength







I checked the RG6 before installation and found no opens or shorts.


I bought the CM7777 based on the many good reviews on this forum and others. I'd love to get rid of Dish Network, but need to solve this problem first. Any suggestions on where to go first with the CM7777 ?


Great Forum. Thanks in Advance for any help.


Gary


----------



## IDRick

Welcome Garskiff! Nice thorough post! Could you please post your tvfool.com results for your actual location? Information from this report is invaluable for assessing your reception possibilities and situation. Also, how many total feet of cable run do you have in your set up?


----------



## jtbell

Also note that the "signal strength" meters on ATSC tuners do not actually measure signal strength. They're an overall measure of signal quality. Don't expect them to scale with raw signal strength.


----------



## dsaar

Thanks to those who replied to my original message, (02/26/09). To recap, the basic problem is bad digital reception at my relatives house about 60 miles outside of Boston.


I decided to go with the CM 7777, and after receiving it and some other parts, finally got a chance to install it the other weekend. The result was the best analog reception I've ever seen there, but only the top 3 channels, (from the TVFool chart), when I switch to digital. So the question is what next?

After spending some time with the antenna, it looks a lot like a CM 3018. Is there much hope that upgrading the antenna to something like the HD8200 would make much difference? Is it safe to assume that as long as you're making a good connection, the age of the antenna doesn't matter? Post transition, the next two target channels are real 7 and 9, so it can't just be a UHF solution. Are there other tips and tricks I can try?

It's frustrating because the analog picture is now very good. I suspect that if I can't get this to work with a somewhat educated effort, there are a lot of other people who's reception is going to go dark this summer.


----------



## garskiff

Since I posted my last, I had a conversation with "Ron" , a Channel Master tech. support guy, and he mentioned the same thing that jtbell was nice enough to point out about the "signal quality" meter. I've attached my TVfool image that helped me decide on the ClearStream4, and later the CM7777. I was most interested in receiving ABC,NBC,CBS and FOX. The chart is pretty ugly for all but FOX, and it may get uglier after the switch back to VHF in June. I chose the Clearstream4 with that in mind. I had planned on splitting the signal twice with cable runs of about 30' and 50', but I'm not sure that will work without an additional distribution amp.


When I add the splitter into the equation, the signal degrades enough to cause drop outs with a drop in the "quality" indication. It's as if the amp isn't doing anything after I attach the splitter. I didn't terminate the open connection, but thought it would be isolated from the other output.


Thanks y'all,


Gary


----------



## Falcon_77

Do you notice anything on the analog side with and w/o the pre-amp?


As for your VHF concerns, how do analog 9, 11 & 13 look on the C4? Despite the marketing claims, I would not expect the C4 to do all that well on upper VHF.


If the 7777 wasn't getting power and you were passing signals through it, the signals would be a lot worse. However, make sure that you don't have any splits, etc., between the PIM (power module) and the pre-amp itself.


I'm also concerned about overload. Some of the signals could be too strong for the 7777. Have you tried turning the C4 to other angles to see if it helps?


----------



## ctdish

Your chart is showing levels of stations that would be very difficult to receive where I live. You might try running TVFool with the height set to 75 feet and see if a larger mast or tower would be helpful. Which analog channels now look better VHF, UHF or both? If you don't have too much snow there is hope for the similar digital channels. The CM 3018 looks like a pretty good antenna. That said better UHF antennas can be had but you could keep the 3018 for VHF.

John


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I had planned on splitting the signal twice with cable runs of about 30' and 50', but I'm not sure that will work without an additional distribution amp.



You should be able to do that with the CM7777 and no additional distribution amp (which would add more noise). Maybe your CM7777 unit is defective ? It happens.


----------



## Me!




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *garskiff* /forum/post/16336217
> 
> 
> When I add the splitter into the equation, the signal degrades enough to cause drop outs with a drop in the "quality" indication. It's as if the amp isn't doing anything after I attach the splitter. I didn't terminate the open connection, but thought it would be isolated from the other output.



FWIW, when you do add a splitter the splitter you use should be a power-pass splitter (for example like a Holland GHS-2P) to pass the DC from the CM7777's power injector to _only_ the CM7777 and not to the "other" TV.


----------



## garskiff

Thanks all,


I'm splitting the signal between the TV out on the pwr supply & the TV. I am using a splitter that passes power. The only channels that appear weak are 4 & 5. They are measuring the lowest quality at 60 to 65 before and after adding the CM7777. All other channels including 9, 11 and 13 are 75 to 100 and work great with or without the splitter in the ckt.


I really don't care about the analog stations as I'm setting up based on what I can receive after June 12th. Looks like channel 13 is really using 18 UHF until after June 12th. I'm not getting any indication of problems with too strong a signal on anything I'm receiving. The C4 seems to be doing as well as can be expected given the terrain between the towers and my place on Whidbey Island.


I'm just not sure the CM7777 is working as advertized and am not sure what I can do to avoid returning a perfectly good preamp because I've overlooked something







Guess I could swap out RG6, but I don't really think that is the problem. I am using the combined output and FM trap is out. I have peaked the antenna by aiming it at chan 4, 146 Mag. Adjusted using the signal quality meter for max signal. Looks like the 70 deg coverage works fine since I have strong coverage on all the other channels with the exception of 4 & 5.


Thanks all for your help







I have 90 days to figure it out.


Gary


----------



## Davird_Jr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *garskiff* /forum/post/16338105
> 
> 
> Thanks all,
> 
> 
> I'm splitting the signal between the TV out on the pwr supply & the TV. I am using a splitter that passes power. The only channels that appear weak are 4 & 5. They are measuring the lowest quality at 60 to 65 before and after adding the CM7777. All other channels including 9, 11 and 13 are 75 to 100 and work great with or without the splitter in the ckt.
> 
> 
> I really don't care about the analog stations as I'm setting up based on what I can receive after June 12th. Looks like channel 13 is really using 18 UHF until after June 12th. I'm not getting any indication of problems with too strong a signal on anything I'm receiving. The C4 seems to be doing as well as can be expected given the terrain between the towers and my place on Whidbey Island.
> 
> 
> I'm just not sure the CM7777 is working as advertized and am not sure what I can do to avoid returning a perfectly good preamp because I've overlooked something
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guess I could swap out RG6, but I don't really think that is the problem. I am using the combined output and FM trap is out.
> 
> 
> Thanks all for your help
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have 90 days to figure it out.
> 
> 
> Gary



Gary,

I find that any time the signal drops below 70 % it causes dropouts on the VIP722. I have some channels that I get fluctuations on. UHF is tough here because of terrain and distance to tower. Sometimes they come in at 40 - 70 %, usually windy, cloudy or rainy weather, etc. and sometimes fluctuates between 70 - 80 % in good weather. As long as signal stays steady above 70 we are okay. Below 70 we get dropouts. Can watch same channels on TV's tuner and no droputs unless signal drops below 40 or so.


----------



## garskiff

Good to know Dave. Thanks! I'm not to the point yet that I want to take down my 50' Panasonic and plug straight into the antenna in, but it's good to know that "at least your sets tuner receives weaker stations, or maybe it's just calibrated different than the 722. I'm sure some of the problem is terrain related, but when it's working steady, I just can't see a difference between having the CM7777 in the ckt and not.... I'd planned to dump Dish when my contract expires in a few months and buy A DTVPal DVR, or an HD TIVO. *If* I can figure it out. Out here on the left coast the magic number for dropouts seems to be more like 60 or less... I could add a 5' extension on to the 10' mast/chimney mount, but would have to guy it to remain within code. We get some pretty awsome winds where I am located.


Thanks,

Gary


----------



## systems2000

How much cable do you have between the splitter and the antenna/pre-amp?


With ABC, CBS, CW, MyNetwork, NBC, & PBS at 144°M to 146°M and FOX at 170°M, I don't think you can get FOX, while pointing to 145°M. I'm assuming you don't have a rotor.


If you aim the antenna a little towards 133°M, you should be able to get _i_ON, along with everything above (except FOX). You'll get other stations just due to proximity.


For better UHF reception, try to get your antenna above 35' (AGL) and 10' above any structure it's mounted to.


----------



## garskiff

I only have 6' between the splitter and the pwr supply of the CM7777. It's between the pwr supply and the antenna input on my 722 DVR. It's not hooked up to a second TV and is only installed to test the amp. post split. Do I need to terminate the open coax connection with a 75 ohm terminator to the second tv, or is it isolated enough not to make any diff? I do receive ION and 29 other digital channels just fine. The antenna seems to be doing its job with the exception of ABC "Chan 4" post split. FOX has a quality reading of near 100 most of the time with the Clearstream 4 pointed at ~ 145 Mag. Guess I could add that 5' mast extension on just to see if there is a big improvement... It would have to be pretty big to get my wife's seal of approval. It's butt ugly sticking that far above my house ;-)


Gary


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *asg1290* /forum/post/15930223
> 
> 
> I too am in a similar situation except my location doesn't have many stations. My TV Fool chart looks pretty dire and I'm not sure I'll ever be able to receive Digital OTA at my home anytime soon. I'm wondering if it would even be worth the time to find out. Any advice would be appreciated



asg1290,


I think you could get all the stations at 8.2 miles, if you use a Channel Master CM3020 antenna and make sure you point it at the horizon (skyline). You may need to add a pre-amp. Install the antenna first and order the pre-amp later. Make sure it has a very low Noise Figure (NF).


I'm at 60+ miles with 2-edge reception and signal levels much lower than yours (-100 to -124). I'm using a CM3020 that is 15 years old.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Do I need to terminate the open coax connection with a 75 ohm terminator to the second tv, or is it isolated enough not to make any diff?



Yes, you should. http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/g...ml#terminators


----------



## Davird_Jr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Davird_Jr* /forum/post/16301187
> 
> 
> Where can one get ONE boom section for the XG-91? Sounds like exactly what I need.



I can't seem to find info on aquiring this anywhere. Any hints?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Davird_Jr* /forum/post/16338580
> 
> 
> I can't seem to find info on aquiring this anywhere. Any hints?



Contact AD directly via their contact form on their website.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *garskiff* /forum/post/16338349
> 
> 
> I only have 6' between the splitter and the pwr supply of the CM7777.



OK. Let me rephrase this.


How much cable is there between the pre-amp and the pre-amp power supply?


So far I'm totalling:


6' between antenna and pre-amp

6' between pre-amp power supply and splitter

~30' distribution run

~50' distribution run


Without a lot more cable, I'd recommend that you try replacing the CM7777 with a CM3412 two-way distribution amplifier. It has a very low NF, less likelyhood of overdriving your system, and completely isolates your two distribution legs.


If you need to get more height, move the antenna off the chimney mount and use a tower. If you ever get hit with lightning, you'll be glad you did. I've seen way too many antenna pole setups (more than 5' above roof lines) destroyed by wind. My tower is 15' above the roof line now and I'm looking to go another 20'.

*NOTE:* KDMD is operating their pre-transition DTV transmission on channel 32 (same channel as their LP's in Fairbanks) at .647KW. They will go full power (17.2 KW) on channel 33, when they turn off their analog transmission, which is on channel 33. How's your reception of analog ABC?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Guess I could add that 5' mast extension on just to see if there is a big improvement... It would have to be pretty big to get my wife's seal of approval.



You could go to TVFool and add 5' to your height and get a feel for what it will do for you.


----------



## garskiff

Here ya go Systems2000,


6' from antenna to mast mounted CM7777 combined input

25' from CM7777 Output/Power to the pwr supply input side

2' from the antenna out to TV to the splitter (GE 2 way 5-2300MHZ pwr pass) IN

6' from the splitter out to my Dish network 722 DVR OTA antenna in.


I installed it this way to test the amp and will not install the 50' and 30' RG6 to the

other TV's until I can verify my setup and the CM7777.


I will terminate the open drops on the splitter.

I will run a test on TVfool to see if the additional 5' will make a diff.

I'll test my Analog channels to see if the amp made a difference.


Thanks for all the help and good advice.


Gary


----------



## systems2000

Going from 24' AGL to 29' AGL will not make any difference. You need to get above 35' AGL.


39' of cable from antenna to input of the "Dish network 722 DVR OTA antenna in," isn't very much cable. You also have a 3.5-4.0 dB loss through your splitter.


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *garskiff* /forum/post/16334930
> 
> 
> As a Dish Network customer On Whidbey Island, Wa, I lost access to Channel 4 (ABC) due to a contract dispute between Dish and Fisher Broadcasting. I have a 722 HD DVR with ATSC tuner so I bought and mounted a ClearStream4 Antenna and hooked it up to the Antenna In. When I re-scanned locals, it brought in 30 channels including the Dish banned channel 4. At this point I was starting to think about dumping Dish and going OTA only. Signal strengths measured between 60 and 100 on stations that are as far away as 50 miles, but splitting the signal to feed two other TV's required some amplification so I bought a CM7777 and mounted it on my mast 6' below the antenna.
> 
> 
> Weak and strong channels across the UHF band show no improvement in strength
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I checked the RG6 before installation and found no opens or shorts.
> 
> 
> I bought the CM7777 based on the many good reviews on this forum and others. I'd love to get rid of Dish Network, but need to solve this problem first. Any suggestions on where to go first with the CM7777 ?
> 
> 
> Great Forum. Thanks in Advance for any help.
> 
> 
> Gary



I have a CM7777 and a DISH 722.....when you put the CM7777 in line, and I take it you used a diplexer outside, did you use one that passes power on BOTH ports?? (MOST DONT! They only pass power to the DISH side)....the voltage out of the 722 (19V) is perfect for the CM7777....get a splitter (I get mine off Ebay...cheaper) that passes power to BOTH ports....and you'll be better off...DO NOT put the CM7777 in the cable line UNLESS you have separate cable feeds to your DISH and OTA antenna.....I have a splitter inside that passes power from the 722 ONLY to the main line. It goes out and then hits the DUAL splitter which feeds power to BOTH ports (dont get them backwards or you may blow up your OTA input!)...and it works just fine; even worked with my older DISH 5000....13/18V....except to get max gain, I had to put the DISH on 9999 or 000 AUX...the 722 doesnt have 000 but it DOES have 9999 if you are using a legacy switch (SW21) and LNB...if you are using DISH PRO+, you dont have the switch and any channel the 722 is on, the voltage is ~19V......if you live near FM transmitters, you may want to turn ON the FM trap in the 7777...also dont POINT the antenna where it faces a nearby STRONG LOCAL TV signal...that will cause the 7777 to compress and not ampilify correctly....a little OFF can make a BIG difference.


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *garskiff* /forum/post/16340257
> 
> 
> Here ya go Systems2000,
> 
> 
> 6' from antenna to mast mounted CM7777 combined input
> 
> 25' from CM7777 Output/Power to the pwr supply input side
> 
> 2' from the antenna out to TV to the splitter (GE 2 way 5-2300MHZ pwr pass) IN
> 
> 6' from the splitter out to my Dish network 722 DVR OTA antenna in.
> 
> 
> I installed it this way to test the amp and will not install the 50' and 30' RG6 to the
> 
> other TV's until I can verify my setup and the CM7777.
> 
> 
> I will terminate the open drops on the splitter.
> 
> I will run a test on TVfool to see if the additional 5' will make a diff.
> 
> I'll test my Analog channels to see if the amp made a difference.
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the help and good advice.
> 
> 
> Gary



Dont bother terminating the open ports...wont make much difference. Get rid of the CM power supply and let the 722 do it for you..also I bet you have a problem with TWO DC voltages (the 722 and the CM PS) coming out...somehow I see that could be an issue...you dont need the CM 0747...take it out. MAKE SURE YOU HAVE POWER PASS from DISH 722 sat out to cable to splitter (BOTH ports) to DISH AND CM7777--you'll be good to go.

See crudely drawn image for my setup...it works! (Verified on analog and with R2670 spectrum analyzer)


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16338450
> 
> 
> Yes, you should. http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/g...ml#terminators



Maybe 0.2db or so..but in practice, not enough to make a real difference....


----------



## Davird_Jr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16338992
> 
> 
> Contact AD directly via their contact form on their website.



Thanks.


----------



## systems2000

I mounted my M8 today and gave it a test run. *Very disappointed.* Even with my pre-amp, it didn't receive any UHF channels other than 39 (WJAL-DT) and WWPB-DT. I could only mount it at around 30'. I'm not able to get it any higher without some major standoff blocks, lowering my DBGH, or swapping it with the CM3020.


----------



## DinoT

Hi all,

I currently have a CM3021 (now called a 4221) with a Winegard 19db UHF only pre-amp. I have it on a rotor but I have parked the antenna in a spot where I can get Baltimore and DC locals. The Baltimore locals are at 106 degrees while the DC are 191. So this antenna has a wide range.


Well, some of my local HD's are moving to VHF HI. Can someone recommend an antenna that can give me similar results to what I have today? I want to avoid have to rotor the antenna back and forth between DC and Baltimore. After the install I want to play with the rotor to find a good compromise spot where I can get both cities and not have to touch the rotor again.


One of the reasons I want to avoid "rotoring" is because my antenna is high up to where I don't want to climb. Every so often the rotor trips it's breaker (what the antenna guy told me). The last antenna guy just climbed up and reset the internal breaker and I got charged for 1 hour labor.










Thanks


----------



## David-the-dtv-ma




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DinoT* /forum/post/16347944
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I currently have a CM3021 (now called a 4221) with a Winegard 19db UHF only pre-amp. I have it on a rotor but I have parked the antenna in a spot where I can get Baltimore and DC locals. The Baltimore locals are at 106 degrees while the DC are 191. So this antenna has a wide range.
> 
> 
> Well, some of my local HD's are moving to VHF HI. Can someone recommend an antenna that can give me similar results to what I have today? I want to avoid have to rotor the antenna back and forth between DC and Baltimore. After the install I want to play with the rotor to find a good compromise spot where I can get both cities and not have to touch the rotor again.
> 
> 
> One of the reasons I want to avoid "rotoring" is because my antenna is high up to where I don't want to climb. Every so often the rotor trips it's breaker (what the antenna guy told me). The last antenna guy just climbed up and reset the internal breaker and I got charged for 1 hour labor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks



If you can list the call sign & channels of the stations you are receiving now I will give you some ideas


----------



## systems2000

Since 7 (WJLA-TV), 9 (WUSA-TV), 11 (WBAL-TV), & 13 (WJZ-TV) are currently being used by the analog transmissions, it's kind of hard to determine what will happen on June 12th.


If you supply us a post-transition digital result from http://www.TVFool.com/ , we could give you a better answer.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16347795
> 
> 
> I mounted my M8 today and gave it a test run. *Very disappointed.*



Sounds like the same disappointment that I experienced when I compared my new 4228 with my 4221.

How did you phase together the two M4s that make up the M8?


----------



## systems2000

14 AWG solid copper. I soldered them at the connection point and at the 300 ohm lead take-off to the pre-amp.


I think I'll be transporting it to my wife's parents house, located in Mercersburg. They're in a better receiving area and it may work better for them.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Can someone recommend an antenna that can give me similar results to what I have today?



Probably your cheapest option would be to add a vhf-hi antenna with a combiner. If youre fairly close to Baltimore and Washington, you may be able to get by with a local type vhf-hi antenna, which would have a wide beamwidth.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DinoT* /forum/post/16347944
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Well, some of my local HD's are moving to VHF HI. Can someone recommend an antenna that can give me similar results to what I have today? I want to avoid have to rotor the antenna back and forth between DC and Baltimore. After the install I want to play with the rotor to find a good compromise spot where I can get both cities and not have to touch the rotor again.



As close as you are to Baltimore, you should do just fine with a Antennacraft Y-5-7-13 favoring the direction of DC. The larger version of this antenna may be too directional for your needs. The DC VHF-HI stations will be broadcasting strong signals in your direction post transition.


Do you recieve WETA-DT & WDCW-DT from DC well now? How about WMPT-DT from Annapolis?


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16353474
> 
> 
> 14 AWG solid copper. I soldered them at the connection point and at the 300 ohm lead take-off to the pre-amp.
> 
> 
> I think I'll be transporting it to my wife's parents house, located in Mercersburg. They're in a better receiving area and it may work better for them.



Did you use tapered lines as per *mclapp*?:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...&postcount=101 

http://www.frontiernet.net/~mclapp/A...se%20lines.pdf 


Did you also try phasing the two M4s using 2 baluns and splitter/combiner with equal length coax lines. I got 2.5 dB more that way with 2 4221s side-by-side (the phasing of the 2 baluns must be correct).


----------



## Trajik00784

I have a country home in Dalton, Mo and I'm trying to decide what's the best antenna for me. Below you'll find my channel listing from antennaweb.org. Please let me know what I'll need to get the best reception. Thanks


* green

uhf KMOS-DT 6.1 PBS SEDALIA, MO 171° 53.7 15

* blue

uhf KMIZ-DT 17.1 ABC COLUMBIA, MO Jun 12, 2009 (post-transition) 150° 49.0 17

blue

uhf KMIZ 17 ABC COLUMBIA, MO 150° 49.0 17

blue

vhf KOMU 8 NBC COLUMBIA, MO 130° 52.6 8

violet

vhf KRCG 13 CBS JEFFERSON CITY, MO 134° 68.5 13

* violet

uhf KMIZ-DT 17.1 ABC COLUMBIA, MO 150° 49.0 22

Note:


----------



## nicoge21

was gonna pickup a terk hdtva but everywhere around here is out of stock except best buy and they want 73 bucks for it, not gonna pay 73 because i've seen it elsewhere cheaper then that. For 73 bucks you can get an outdoor antenna


talk about robbery


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nicoge21* /forum/post/16355189
> 
> 
> was gonna pickup a terk hdtva but everywhere around here is out of stock except best buy and they want 73 bucks for it, not gonna pay 73 because i've seen it elsewhere cheaper then that. For 73 bucks you can get an outdoor antenna
> 
> 
> talk about robbery



A robbery is when someone holds a gun to your head.


It's your choice to buy it or not - it's called capitalism....so quit whinin'


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Below you'll find my channel listing from antennaweb.org. Please let me know what I'll need to get the best reception.



Youre better off looking at the numbers from TVFool than from a color chart. Post your TVFool png image here.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nicoge21* /forum/post/16355189
> 
> 
> was gonna pickup a terk hdtva but everywhere around here is out of stock except best buy and they want 73 bucks for it, not gonna pay 73 because i've seen it elsewhere cheaper then that.



Amazon usually has them for about 40 bucks with free shipping. That's the best deal I've ever seen for the HDTVa.


----------



## Trajik00784

d


----------



## Trajik00784

t


----------



## Trajik00784

Sorry about the previous 2 posts, but I had to at least have 3 posts in order to post a url. Below are my results from tvfool.com. Please let me know what I should do.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7c728118c14c54


----------



## Falcon_77

I picked-up a new CM4221HD at Fry's last weekend and am still running tests on it.


However, the packaging is a definite problem. The lower bays are getting crushed by the box. The bays fold down to fit in the box, but end up extending beyond the reflector.


I discovered this when I turned it around with the lower bay on top and the box wouldn't close w/o bending the whiskers.


Looking at the bottom of the box, I can see where the whiskers were getting bent and the top of the box had a significant dent showing the pressure of the box holding the bent elements.


I will try to remember to upload a picture of this later, but the resultant bends in the bottom bays are easy to spot, when compared to the others.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Please let me know what I should do.



Because of your channel 12, youre going to need a vhf-hi/uhf combo antenna pointed at about 150 degrees. The higher the gain, the better.


----------



## Trajik00784




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16357315
> 
> 
> Because of your channel 12, youre going to need a vhf-hi/uhf combo antenna pointed at about 150 degrees. The higher the gain, the better.



I'm thinking about going with the Winegard Hd-8200u. Do you think this antenna will work? Will I need an amplifier as well?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Trajik00784* /forum/post/16357353
> 
> 
> I'm thinking about going with the Winegard Hd-8200u. Do you think this antenna will work? Will I need an amplifier as well?



A better choice would the 769X series since you don't need the 2-6 coverage that the 8200 has.


A preamp is suggested.


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16357523
> 
> 
> A better choice would the 769X series since you don't need the 2-6 coverage that the 8200 has.
> 
> 
> A preamp is suggested.



Correct. I would go with the Winegard 7698 (the biggest, most gain) with a strong pre-amp, think Winegard AP-8275 or Channel Master 7777....


----------



## Trajik00784




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* /forum/post/16357585
> 
> 
> Correct. I would go with the Winegard 7698 (the biggest, most gain) with a strong pre-amp, think Winegard AP-8275 or Channel Master 7777....



Ok, I think I'll go with the winegard 7698. How high would I have to mount it to get the best reception? Is the antenna multi-directional?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Trajik00784* /forum/post/16357895
> 
> 
> Ok, I think I'll go with the winegard 7698. How high would I have to mount it to get the best reception? Is the antenna multi-directional?



The 7698 is VERY directional. It will have to be aimed accurately. Shoot for a heading of around 140-145 true.


As far as height... as high as it takes.


----------



## nicoge21

I just don't see how the terk HDTVa is worth $73.99.


----------



## Trajik00784




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16358999
> 
> 
> The 7698 is VERY directional. It will have to be aimed accurately. Shoot for a heading of around 140-145 true.
> 
> 
> As far as height... as high as it takes.



Is there a good multi-directional antenna I can use that would be suitable for my area?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I just don't see how the terk HDTVa is worth $73.99.



The pretty box it comes in is $70 of the worth, heh.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nicoge21* /forum/post/16359096
> 
> 
> I just don't see how the terk HDTVa is worth $73.99.



The authentic, amplified Silver Sensor (Philips PHDTV3) is much less:
http://www.google.com/products?q=phdtv3 

And is enclosed to protect sensitive antenna elements from prying fingers...


----------



## dvansowhat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Trajik00784* /forum/post/16359244
> 
> 
> Is there a good multi-directional antenna I can use that would be suitable for my area?



If I were you I would go with the 7698 as that is what I am using on stations that are from 37 to 46 mi. and between 306 and 333 true. This antenna improved my reception quite a bit and I am not running any pre amp either. I don't think you would be happy with an omni at your distance.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Trajik00784* /forum/post/16359244
> 
> 
> Is there a good multi-directional antenna I can use that would be suitable for my area?



Nope.


----------



## Trajik00784

Is the winegard 7698 a better choice than the channel master 3671?


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Trajik00784* /forum/post/16361136
> 
> 
> Is the winegard 7698 a better choice than the channel master 3671?



The 7698 is a much better choice. The 3671 is a beast. You don't need such a wide, heavy antenna unless you have channels 2-6 to contend with. The channel 7-69 performance will be no better with the 3671.


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* /forum/post/16357585
> 
> 
> Correct. I would go with the Winegard 7698 (the biggest, most gain) with a strong pre-amp, think Winegard AP-8275 or Channel Master 7777....



In side by side test with a Wineguard and a CM7777, the CM won hands down...the WG threw more noise into the spectrum than anything...The specs look good but on a REAL spectrum analyzer hooked to a REAL antenna, it was JUNK


Also DONT overlook the CM7778....lower gain on VHF but same on UHF as the 7777 and slightly cheaper...the 7778 wont overload when pointed at a FM antenna farm and doesnt need the FM trap ON like the 7777 does a lot of times (though I run mine with the trap off but Im not looking at a lot of FM stations where my TV stations are...usually they are together)


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/16354644
> 
> 
> Did you use tapered lines as per *mclapp*?:



YES. I used 9.75" 10 AWG solid copper wire for the wiskers, a full floating screened reflector, and 5.25" spacing (Closest I could get with ½" PVC piping tees). I used 14 AWG for the interconnect phase lines.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/16354644
> 
> 
> Did you also try phasing the two M4s using 2 baluns and splitter/combiner with equal length coax lines. I got 2.5 dB more that way with 2 4221s side-by-side (the phasing of the 2 baluns must be correct).



NO. I've not tried that yet.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Is there a good multi-directional antenna I can use that would be suitable for my area?



Nope, and you would have a slim chance of getting the stations at 254 degrees on a consistant basis anyway.


----------



## j2fast




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *j2fast* /forum/post/16273779
> 
> 
> Afternoon all, looking for some advice since I'm finally going to replace my Radio Shack antenna. I've read through about the last 50 pages of this thread and I'm not any more clear on what I should do. A map from TVFool is below, I'm looking for the best solution to receiving channels in the 7-51 range. Do I need two antennas or will one do the trick, which models, etc, etc.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *j2fast* /forum/post/16275426
> 
> 
> Oops meant to say I'm mainly concerned with the Pittsburgh stations (48, 25, 13, 43, 51) and then 9-NBC & 7-CBS that you listed would be nice. That said we have a rotor now which is fine. Like most I'm sure I'd like to be able to reach out to grab as many stations as possible.
> 
> 
> To be even more specific 43-Fox at 94 and 51-ABC at 113 are big priorities. They are the only HD Fox and ABC broadcasts we receive and both can be weak at times (especially Fox). One other thing is that there are tall trees in all directions.



Any suggestions on getting a good signal from 43-Fox list on my TVFool page? It's the weirdest thing best we used to get it fine but starting about a month ago it faded out to no signal at all.


This past weekend I swapped out my old giant Radio Shack VHF/UHF antenna for a CM4228 (old version not new) which is hooked to a radio shack preamp. Every channel I can get actually comes in stronger but I still can't get a lock on WPGH. It improved a little, I can actually get a signal but the signal bounces around from 40-50% back down to 0% so it's still not watchable.


----------



## Trajik00784

I'm trying to figure out everything I'll need to go along with the Winegard 7698 antenna. Ie. Mast, mount, connectors, ground wire, etc. Please post your recommendations.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Any suggestions on getting a good signal from 43-Fox list on my TVFool page? It's the weirdest thing best we used to get it fine but starting about a month ago it faded out to no signal at all.



Any new buildings go up between you and the transmitter ? You could call the station to find out.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Trajik00784* /forum/post/16365146
> 
> 
> I'm trying to figure out everything I'll need to go along with the Winegard 7698 antenna. Ie. Mast, mount, connectors, ground wire, etc. Please post your recommendations.



A little hard to do, since we dont know what you have now, what shape its in, what you want to keep or replace etc, heh.


----------



## systems2000

OTA antenna installs are not a straight-forward issue. There are multitudes of variables that would create a situation, where your neighbors great reception could possibly not work for you. A good majority of the "Antenna Experts," on this forum, are experts because they have gone through the school of "Hard Knocks."


I, myself, have gone through three different distribution amplifiers (DA's) and I'm looking to replace my current one. I've relocated my mounting position twice. I'm still looking for an acceptable antenna and to get even more height (Third time). I'm also constantly rerouting 300 Ohm cable.


----------



## David-the-dtv-ma




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16368210
> 
> 
> OTA antenna installs are not a straight-forward issue. There are multitudes of variables that would create a situation, where your neighbors great reception could possibly not work for you. A good majority of the "Antenna Experts," on this forum, are experts because they have gone through the school of "Hard Knocks."
> 
> 
> I, myself, have gone through three different distribution amplifiers (DA's) and I'm looking to replace my current one. I've relocated my mounting position twice. I'm still looking for an acceptable antenna and to get even more height (Third time). I'm also constantly rerouting 300 Ohm cable.



From what I have heard in routing 300 ohm cable it need to be twisted 3 or 4 twist per foot & have mounts to keep it away from metel. But 300 ohm does have much less loss that coax.


----------



## Trajik00784




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16365446
> 
> 
> A little hard to do, since we dont know what you have now, what shape its in, what you want to keep or replace etc, heh.



I don't have anything now. I plan to roof mount this antenna with an elevation of about 40'. I've also considered putting it on a pole.


----------



## systems2000

Don't mount it to the roof! You'll be glad if it gets hit with lightning.


----------



## DinoT

HI folks,

Chiming back in....to rehash...today I get pretty good results on a CM4221 with a Winegard 19db UHF only pre-amp. I was going to try a Winegard 26db UHF only pre-amp that I have, but decided against it once I found out some stations were moving to VHF. I really like the fact that my current antenna is not very directional. I have a lot of play with it.


I want to prepare for some of my locals going to VHF. I am attaching the TVFool pic of post June 12 digital stations. I am reading that many folks like the CM7777 pre-amp. Any help with recommending an antenna would be appreciated. I have 10 DirecTV HDDVR's which are all fed an OTA signal, so I have a lot of splits.

I only really care about the DC and Baltimore stations. They are shown in yellow and green. The Baltimore stations are at about 105 degrees and 17 miles away, while the DC stations are at about 191 degrees and 32 miles away. My current antenna is pointed right in between them and I am pretty good. The exceptions are DC channel 4 is pretty weak as is Baltimore channel 11. (Channel 4 is only about 65-70 signal strength and Ch 11 is about 80 going from my DirecTV tuner) Both happen to be NBC (not sure if this is a coincidence). Other stations like channel 13 from Balt and channel 9 from DC, I can't not receive them. I kid you not, I can point the antenna anywhere and those come in really strong (both CBS, coincidence?).

So basically I'd like to get an antenna that gives me the UHF characteristics of my bowtie antenna with VHF. Also, my antenna is on a 5 foot mast on my roof.


Thanks


----------



## Trajik00784




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16369166
> 
> 
> Don't mount it to the roof! You'll be glad if it gets hit with lightning.



How do you suggest I mount the antenna?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> From what I have heard in routing 300 ohm cable it need to be twisted 3 or 4 twist per foot & have mounts to keep it away from metel. But 300 ohm does have much less loss that coax.



Yep, except when its wet. Thats why open line 300 ohm is superior, it sheds water quickly and has the lowest loss.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> How do you suggest I mount the antenna?



If you mount it to the roof, youll need to run a heavy duty ground wire to the mast for safety. Think of Ben Franklins invention, heh.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Trajik00784* /forum/post/16370933
> 
> 
> How do you suggest I mount the antenna?



Pole or tower anchored to the ground and side of the house. Less likelyhood of wind damage also.


Channel Master doesn't recommend any more than 3' of pole above the rotor, unless it has a bearing mount of some sort. There's also a recommended maximum height of 10' or less above last anchor point, for single pole mounts (including rotor/antenna assy). Anything above 10' should be mounted with a tower.


UHF reception is best above 35' AGL. Even higher if you have obstructions close by.


----------



## David-the-dtv-ma




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16371227
> 
> 
> Yep, except when its wet. Thats why open line 300 ohm is superior, it sheds water quickly and has the lowest loss.



the open wire is by far the best. Some folks are blessed to still have some of it new unused on the spool.


So I use regular 300 from the antenna down the mast & inside the attic. Just inside the attic I have a indoor amp. The from the on to the TV is coax. thus I get as much of the signal to the amp before any loss & as little loss as I can. It would be even better with open wire but with only 12 feet of 300 ohm there is very little loss. Even when wet it is less than one db [really 0.72 db] loss at UHF ch 50.


The only way I know get get 300 open wire is to make it. That would be to get the gray out door PVC for electrical 1/2" conduit. then cutting into 1" to making seperators. Drilling holes in each one at exactly 3/4 " apart. Then getting 14 awg wire. If it is not bare; strip the insulation off the wire. Then slide the wire in the seperators.



That is a lot of work, even for just 12" of open wire.


If some one has a better idea to get open wire I am all ears.


----------



## Trajik00784

Thanks Systems2000 for your help. What is the best coupon eligible dtv converter box on the market?


----------



## nicoge21

i'd get a Zenith DTT901


----------



## David-the-dtv-ma




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Trajik00784* /forum/post/16373670
> 
> 
> Thanks Systems2000 for your help. What is the best coupon eligible dtv converter box on the market?



I have a maganavox, RCA & Zenith. I can not see any difference on the TV screen. but the max out put they have is composite video.


If you find one with an s-video out put , it will give you a sharper & smooth screen with using a TV with high enough res to show the difference. But most sets that display high enough res, already have the dtv tuner built in.


but if you have a dvd recorder with out an dtv tuner but with a record input at s-video it will give a better res on the screen when you watch the dvd recorded over the s-video input.


----------



## Trajik00784

What rotator will be the best for the winegard 7698?


----------



## systems2000

General consensus is that the Channel Master CM7000 is the best CECB. Although I've not had one to try, my best luck has been with the APEX DT502 (has S-Video & Reminder function - No channel add) and Sunkey SK801ATSC (no recall function).


There is a thread here that deals with antennas, rotors, & pre-amps/DA's.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> General consensus is that the Channel Master CM7000 is the best CECB. Although I've not had one to try, my best luck has been with the APEX DT502 (has S-Video & Reminder function - No channel add)



Yep. I also dont have the Channel Master CM7000. But I also have the Zenith and Insignia and AccessHD and the APEX 502 and the Sansonic. Out of all of them the AccessHD is the worst. I really like the APEX 502 except for the no ADD channel feature, which makes it a deal killer for me. I would say go with the Zenith/Insignia box, you wont go far wrong.


----------



## pamarf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/5399965
> 
> 
> Re. Receive Antenna VSWR Degradation to DTV Receiver Sensitivity
> 
> 
> A paper presented by Kerry Cozad at Oct04 IEEE Broadcast Technology Society re. DTV antenna VSWR and Gain measurements is cited in the fol., but I have not yet seen it. I would appreciate a copy if anyone has it.
> 
> 
> Anyone know of any DTV Antenna VSWR measurements....or NEC simulation results?



Hi, if you still need it, I have a Kerry Cozad presentation on the Consummer antenna gain & VSWR. I can't give the URL now since this is my first post. Let me know if it's of any use to you.


Also, concerning your last question, there is an IEEE Transactions on Broadcasting (Dec 2002) paper on the topic: "Evaluation of Antenna and Receiver Mismatch Effects on DTV Reception".


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Let me know if it's of any use to you.



It sounds interesting, go ahead and post it.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16382794
> 
> 
> It sounds interesting, go ahead and post it.



He has to have several posts first before the forum's software settings will allow him to post a URL (spam reduction measure). He will have to make several more posts, whether useful or just marker posts, in order to be permitted to post a URL.


I'd certainly find those articles to be of interest myself.


----------



## clio22

Hi,


I'm totally clueless when it comes to a/v concepts. Can someone explain to me why I can't use a tunerless DVD/VCR to record from an ATSC digital TV? I wasn't able to record with the antenna connected to the VCR, so I connected the antenna to the TV and then RCAs connecting the DVD/VCR to the TV. I got no signal that way either; it recorded black & grey noise.


I'm just totally confused. I don't understand the concept of the signal, where it's coming from, etc. Why doesn't the DVD/VCR pick up the TV's digital signal? If I could understand the concept, I might be less confused.


Thanks,

Bonnie


----------



## systems2000

When you use RCA cables, the source will be the DVD/VCR. This feeds the television "Baseband" information. The television generally doesn't transmit, except for audio (Red & White jacks), which will usually go to a sound system of some sort.


A "tunerless" device will always need some sort of attached unit like a Cable box, Satellite receiver, or Terrestrial (OTA) receiver (like a CECB).


If you have a HDTV, you may be interested in one of these Terrestrial boxes:

DTVPal DVR 
Coby DTV-140 
Grandtec Tun-5000 
PHD-205 
Samsung DTBH260F 
Samsung SIR-T451 
Sylvania 6900DTE 
Tivax STB-T1 
Winegard RC-1010


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *clio22* /forum/post/16383733
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> 
> I'm totally clueless when it comes to a/v concepts. Can someone explain to me why I can't use a tunerless DVD/VCR to record from an ATSC digital TV? I wasn't able to record with the antenna connected to the VCR, so I connected the antenna to the TV and then RCAs connecting the DVD/VCR to the TV. I got no signal that way either; it recorded black & grey noise.
> 
> 
> I'm just totally confused. I don't understand the concept of the signal, where it's coming from, etc. Why doesn't the DVD/VCR pick up the TV's digital signal? If I could understand the concept, I might be less confused.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bonnie



Perhaps the DVD/VCR wasn't setup correctly to record from "LINE IN"???

Or maybe you forgot to turn the DTV ON during the period of the recording???


Unfortunately, you probably can't "see" the live DTV signal prior to making

a recording because you can't feed the DTV's OTA signal to the DVD/VCR

at the same time as you "view" the DVD/VCR input....


What are TV & DVD/VCR make/model numbers so we can lookup the manuals???

Also let us know if you can't find the manuals...


----------



## clio22

Yes, the DVD/VCR was set on Line 1. I had both set up according to the Haier (TV) and SONY (DVD/VCR) manuals. DTV was on when I was present, the TV was off when I timer-recorded. It recorded only black & grey noise in both cases. There is no option on the TV for a Line 1, only AV1, AV2 and Component, although I can set it to channel 3. It seems to me that the RF connection between TV and VCR is the critical factor. On my older TVs I can run a coax from TV to DVD/VCR. But there's no RF slot on the Haier, so I'm connecting with the RCAs which seems to be my problem. Does the signal come through only on coax? Is it even possible to VCR-record with a tunerless DVD/VCR and a DTV? That's why I asked about the signal concept - does the DVD/VCR get the signal from the DTV's tuner and on a coax only? Is the RF the issue? Can I put a CECB on the digital TV which seems redundant but may be the only way I can record on this DTV?


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *clio22* /forum/post/16388259
> 
> 
> There is no option on the TV for a Line 1, only AV1, AV2 and Component



That's the root of your problem. AV1, AV2 and Component are all *inputs* to the TV. They allow you to feed a signal *into* the TV from a DVD player, cable or satellite box, or other video source. They do not provide a way to get a signal *out* of the TV that you can feed into a VCR. Most TVs nowadays have *audio* outputs that are intended to feed sound to a stereo system so you can get better sound than with the TV's internal speakers; fewer TVs have *video* outputs of any kind.



> Quote:
> Can I put a CECB on the digital TV which seems redundant but may be the only way I can record on this DTV?



You're close. You need to connect the CECB to the VCR so that it can serve as the tuner for the VCR. Your TV already has a tuner, so it doesn't need the CECB for that purpose. I would do it as follows:


1. Put a two-way splitter on the antenna cable. It shouldn't cost more than a few dollars at Radio Shack, Lowe's, or wherever.


2. Connect one output of the splitter directly to the TV's antenna input via coax. This feeds your TV's tuner and allows you to watch TV normally.


3. Connect the other output of the splitter to the CECB's antenna input via coax. Then connect the CECB's audio/video outputs (red, white, and yellow jacks) to matching inputs on the VCR. Finally, connect the VCR's audio/video outputs (red, white and yellow again) to a matching set of inputs on the TV. It sounds like your TV has two sets of these inputs, labeled AV1 and AV2.


To record:


1. Turn on the TV and set it to whichever input (AV1 or AV2) you've connected to the VCR.


2. Turn on the VCR. Since it doesn't have a tuner, it probably assumes the signal is coming in via the audio/video inputs. If it has more than one set of inputs, you'll have to set it to the one that the CECB is connected to, using some button on the remote.


3. Turn on the CECB. You should be able to see whatever it's receiving, on the TV. Set the channel using the CECB's remote. Start and stop recording using the VCR's remote.


Although the CECB's tuner may seem to be redundant, it does give you the ability to record one channel while watching another one. After you start recording one channel on the VCR, you can set the TV to use its own tuner, and use that to tune the other channel and watch it.


If your TV had a video output that you could feed to your VCR, you'd be limited to recording whatever you were actually watching (or could have actually been watching, anyway).


----------



## holl_ands

There are a variety of ways to connect CECB, VCR and TV:
http://columbiaisax.googlepages.com/...dtv_tv_vcr.htm 

Anywhere you see an RF Coax cable between components, you should add R/W/Y RCA cables,

since CECBs and most VCR's will NOT regenerate Stereo on the RF ouput.


In the above, jtbell recommends an RF Splitter on the antenna coax in order to feed both

the CECB and your DTV so you can watch one channel while recording another.

[RF Splitter not shown in above diagram.]


In fol. diagram, CECB connected to antenna replaces Cable Box:
http://columbiaisav.googlepages.com/...onnections.htm 

The second diagram shows the use of an RF Splitter to feed both the CECB

and the VCR (analog only recordings), which also passes through the RF

signal to the DTV to watch live digital programs.

[jtbell described connecting second port of RF Splitter direct to DTV, bypassing

the VCR, which probably can't receive very many analog stations anymore....]


Sorry, couldn't find a diagram for exactly what jtbell described.....


----------



## RaRaLew

I went to antennaweb.org and entered my address. I live in Quincy, Massachusetts, and there is a tall water tower not far from my house. Antenneweb.org said I need a "large directional antenna with pre-amp" to view the channels I want to receive (in the violet sector).


I'm having a terrible time finding the right antenna to buy. ConsumerReports.org doesn't rate antennas, and I've searched the Internet for days with no luck.


Has anyone had to buy this type of antenna? If so, can you please give me some help? I have no clue.


Thanks,


Stephanie


----------



## clio22

Whew, I'll need a few readings to digest this info. It reminds me of my math anxiety. Thank you both for the info and time you provided in responding and the helpful Columbia diagrams.


Meanwhile, am I right in understanding that the coax carries the external signal source while the RCAs just improve the quality internally between the TV and VCR?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RaRaLew* /forum/post/16390145
> 
> 
> I went to antennaweb.org and entered my address. I live in Quincy, Massachusetts, and there is a tall water tower not far from my house. Antenneweb.org said I need a "large directional antenna with pre-amp" to view the channels I want to receive (in the violet sector).
> 
> 
> I'm having a terrible time finding the right antenna to buy. ConsumerReports.org doesn't rate antennas, and I've searched the Internet for days with no luck.
> 
> 
> Has anyone had to buy this type of antenna? If so, can you please give me some help? I have no clue.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Stephanie



Got to www.TVfool.com and enter your exact address. Cut and past the link to your report back here so we can see it.


Specify what market area you are targeting for reception and where you intend to mount the antenna.


Antennaweb's forecasts are close to worthless, that's why the TVfool analysis is what is asked for.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/16389023
> 
> 
> That's the root of your problem. AV1, AV2 and Component are all *inputs* to the TV. They allow you to feed a signal *into* the TV from a DVD player, cable or satellite box, or other video source. They do not provide a way to get a signal *out* of the TV that you can feed into a VCR. Most TVs nowadays have *audio* outputs that are intended to feed sound to a stereo system so you can get better sound than with the TV's internal speakers; fewer TVs have *video* outputs of any kind.



Like I stated above.


> Quote:
> _When you use RCA cables, the source will be the DVD/VCR. This feeds the television "Baseband" information. The television generally doesn't transmit, except for audio (Red & White jacks), which will usually go to a sound system of some sort.
> 
> 
> A "tunerless" device will always need some sort of attached unit like a Cable box, Satellite receiver, or Terrestrial (OTA) receiver (like a CECB)._


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Antennaweb's forecasts are close to worthless



Yeah really. Who wants to be told they need a "blue" or "red" antenna ?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *clio22* /forum/post/16390302
> 
> 
> Whew, I'll need a few readings to digest this info. It reminds me of my math anxiety. Thank you both for the info and time you provided in responding and the helpful Columbia diagrams.
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, am I right in understanding that the coax carries the external signal source while the RCAs just improve the quality internally between the TV and VCR?



Correct...also between CECB and VCR....and allows VCR to record Stereo (RCA cables) vice Mono only (Coax cable).


----------



## systems2000

Actually, If you have a location that sells a large variety of antennas, you'll find the color code indicator on the retail box. Granted, it doesn't give performance differences between the same category of antennas.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16392418
> 
> 
> Yeah really. Who wants to be told they need a "blue" or "red" antenna ?



If I buy a cheap antenna and paint it violet will it work better?


----------



## clio22

Thanks to you both. I hooked everything up with the box which works fine. Using a splitter sounds interesting, but I don't really need it since I use the bedroom TV/VCR (the one I just hooked up) to record while I'm watching/recording something else in the living room.


I'm sorry if I'm being dense, but is this right: the tunerless VCR can't use the TV's tuner because the TV doesn't transmit the signal?


Bonnie


----------



## holl_ands

Correct.


DTV would need *OUTPUTS*....RF Coax (Ch3/4) and/or RCA Red/White/Yellow (R/L/Video).

[If you had mentioned a model number we could have checked to make sure....]e


----------



## clio22

It's a CRT: Haier HTR20. It's got one RF and RCAs. So if it had 2 RFs, then I could use the TV tuner to record to VCR? I think my WEGA Trinitron has 2 RFs, but I'm using a CECB on that one, too.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *clio22* /forum/post/16396533
> 
> 
> So if it had 2 RFs, then I could use the TV tuner to record to VCR?



Maybe, although I doubt it. I think TV's with two RF (coax) connections use them as separate *inputs* for antenna and cable TV. A TV with a video output would probably use something besides coax for a better quality signal: either composite (yellow jack), S-video or component-video (three red, green, and blue jacks), plus stereo audio outputs (red and white jacks).


----------



## 300ohm

Probably. Dont red cars go faster ? And arent PCs in black cases more powerful ?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> General consensus is that the Channel Master CM7000 is the best CECB.



Did you notice that Solid Signal dropped the price on the CM7000 to $44.93 plus S&H ?


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16395897
> 
> 
> If I buy a cheap antenna and paint it violet will it work better?



Oh ya, violet paint will make have 3,000dBd


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gjvrieze* /forum/post/16401036
> 
> 
> Oh ya, violet paint will make have 3,000dBd



Whoa, really?! I could get the vikings games in Idaho with a violet antenna! LOL! Violet wouldn't match our gray house and would not have good WAF...







Take care gjvrieze!


----------



## holl_ands

Antennas Direct has the "new" ClearStream C1C Convertible Antenna

on their website...set-top, wall or outdoor mounted, NOT amplified:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/indoorantennas.html 

But the correct links aren't in place yet (thanx to "search site"):
http://www.antennasdirect.com/C1-Cle...V-antenna.html 
http://www.antennasdirect.com/pdf/c1...tructions2.pdf 


I don't know why A-D would continue with such an obvious falsehood:

"Attic Installations will cut 40% -50% of your signal strength."

It's more like 13 dB (+/- 7 dB) for attic vs minimal outdoor mast height

and 20-25+ dB versus a 30-ft mast mount.


Performance with the reflector in place is probably same as C1:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/pdf/C1...structions.pdf 

And it probably loses 3 dB when the reflector is removed for indoor use.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> And it probably loses 3 dB when the reflector is removed for indoor use.



Heh, someone needs to clue in their marketing dept.


ClearStream1™(with reflector)

Good directivity at all frequencies with a peak gain of 8 dB.


ClearStream Convertible™(no reflector)

Good directivity at all UHF DTV frequencies with a peak gain of 8.25 dBi.


The SR8 is cute, and may be better than the Zenith Silver Sensor for eliminating ghosts, especially if you put it in a screened box.


----------



## PCTools




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tower guy* /forum/post/16395897
> 
> 
> if i buy a cheap antenna and paint it violet will it work better?



I might last longer.


----------



## ngarrang

It will rust more slowly than an unpainted antenna. Maybe.


----------



## ManMachine

For a newbie, there's just too much information to swallow.


here's my location: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7f14e25e0ffdca 


What's the top 3 choices for indoor antenna? what are the techniques to use to get the antenna to get good signal?


Thanks.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16396089
> 
> 
> Correct.
> 
> 
> DTV would need *OUTPUTS*....RF Coax (Ch3/4) and/or RCA Red/White/Yellow (R/L/Video).
> 
> [If you had mentioned a model number we could have checked to make sure....]e



Manual for HTR20 is not available on Haier website, but spec sheet lists a

composite video OUTPUT (presumably R/W/Y RCA plugs x 3):
http://www.haieramerica.com/en/product/HTR20/specs 


So you should be able to connect antenna to Haier (via Coax) and connect Haier

to VCR/DVD-Recorder (via R/W/Y RCA cables)....but the Haier will have to be *ON*

and tuned to the desired channel whenever you schedule a record event,

since connecting Haier to a timer would probably cause it to lose channel memory....


Perhaps you can post a picture of HTR20 connections if you need more info....


PS: There is only ONE RF Coax input for the single ATSC/NTSC/QAM Tuner.


----------



## 300ohm

A couple of paragraphs from an article by Shannon Huniwell titled "A Sentimental So Long to Analog TV", in the April 2009 issue of Popular Communications magazine, (the same issue also had a picture of DogTs DBGH, heh)



> Quote:
> Who had been on Channel 1 ? RCA's New York station lived there through the war era, and then moved to Channel 4. The broadcasting giant never fussed about the shift. Some critics believe it was simply glad to have dealt a blow to Armstrong's FM, a system that it--and all other TV broadcasters--would use to transmit audio. Stations authorized for channel residence during the 1946-48 period were to be considered local community outlets with no more than 1kW of power. Though a construction permit or two got issued, none of these odd television facilities made it to air.
> 
> In the middle of 1948, the Commission deleted TV's Channel 1 and re-allocated its 44 to 50mHz to two-way land/mobile FM communication use. Channels 2 through 13 remained as broadcasting's prime real estate until the recent analog TV demise.
> 
> Why did the FCC leave a mystery on television dials that started with Channel 2 ? Legend has it the commissioners had subjected FM and TV broadcasting to so much change that they worried about making every television station move down a notch. Such relocation would necessitate new letterhead, revamped station identification slides, channel number change publicity, and replacement dials for existing TV sets. Reportedly, regulators in Washington thought about the political static that such gerrymandering might generate, and said, "The heck with renumbering all those @#!% TV channels!"



She then has picture of a V-E Day flyer, likely from April or early May 1945 that bar owners (who then owned most of the televisions sets) likely had posted in their establishments.

It goes like this:
Code:


Code:


V-E DAY  
Watch WNBT for Special Victory News Program.
See: Famous NBC Newsmen in action.
See: Historical films of the War in review.
See: Up-to-the-minute Victory News flashes as they are received on the Television Studio News 
Ticker.
For exact time of WNBT V-E Day Program
-- stay tuned to 
WEAF, New York -- 660 on on your dial.
WNBT
Television Channel 1.
National Broadcasting Company.
A Service of Radio Corporation of America.

There was also the video stations logo on the flyer, a NBC radio microphone.


----------



## PCTools

If anyone needs another code, just PM and you can have mine.


----------



## TheWind

I need a dedicated FM antenna. – I’ve included a FMFool image that shows all the U.S. stations that I can receive. (Also, all stations to the north have been edited/erased out because they’re totally blocked by hills.) The receivable stations are generally 24 to 35 miles away and cover about a 40 degree arc from my location.


Will the Winegard HD-6055P FM antenna ( http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload/HD6055P.pdf ) work well for me, or is too directional?


I don’t want to get a rotator, so I need an antenna that gets very good to excellent reception from all the reasonably powerful stations when it’s pointed at the midpoint of them. – I don’t need, or expect, decent reception of the exceptionally low power stations, like the last nine or ten on the list.


My second choice would be the Antennacraft FM6 ( http://www.antennacraft.net/pdfs/FM6.pdf ). I’m leaning toward the Winegard HD-6055P FM because I assume that it has a little higher gain. – Is this a correct assumption? And, in the real world, is there any reason to prefer one over the other?


Thanks for any help!

Dave


----------



## ngarrang

The DB2 is now on the roof.










A re-scan got me 28 digital channels, and 10 analog. I have it pointed to Cincinnati (my ZIP is 45056), but I am picking up several Dayton stations from the back of it, or reflection off another house maybe.


----------



## dvansowhat

I will give out some more info. in regards to setting up the Winegard 7698 as I have installed two of them so far. The antenne will deliver to fringe areas as advertised. Thank you to those who responded to me on this subject some time ago as the weather in Iowa can be not conducive to setting up an antenna.


----------



## systems2000

Can you give us a hint as to what you are receiving? A copy of your TVFool.com information and a performance report of that list would be nice.


What's the AGL of the 7698?


----------



## dvansowhat

I will post the tv fool results http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...61b46663b3f005 This is my fathers house and antenna aimed at 37 true. MY tv signal quality meter showed readings from 60 to 90 with a run of 50ft. rg-6 and non amplified. I will go back at end of month and set up a new tv for them.


----------



## systems2000

Are you getting WOI-DT (ABC)?


I'm assuming you're getting KHIN-DT (PBS), KCCI-DT (CBS), KDIN-DT (PBS), KDMI-DT (MyNet), WHO-DT (NBC), & KDSM-DT (FOX).


----------



## dvansowhat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16456321
> 
> 
> Are you getting WOI-DT (ABC)?
> 
> 
> I'm assuming you're getting KHIN-DT (PBS), KCCI-DT (CBS), KDIN-DT (PBS), KDMI-DT (MyNet), WHO-DT (NBC), & KDSM-DT (FOX).



In regards to all stations you mention then if I remember correctly I was picking up all of them. I used my small 22in. lcd that I took to their house and used it to scan for those stations. I did not do a sq reading on every station but the few I sampled with my tv all the digital channels were very good and I picked up 1 or 2 analog also. I think KCCI came in at 92 on the tv meter but I will know more when my parents upgrade their tv. Their old tv was fed with some old twin lead so with new rg-6 on their tv the few analog they can get is better now. The tv they have just has pushbuttons from 2 to 13 and no remote. They do have a RCA converter box but was not able to configure that for them as I could not find the remote or instruction manual for it.


----------



## dvansowhat

I re-checked the tv fool analysis and KHIN is one I did not get as it is at 294. So much for my memory.


----------



## systems2000

Even at 294°, at the receive level you're supposed to be gettting, I would think it should be watchable.


On second look, the station is 50 miles away and single-edge. Maybe not.


----------



## dvansowhat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16459987
> 
> 
> Even at 294°, at the receive level you're supposed to be gettting, I would think it should be watchable.
> 
> 
> On second look, the station is 50 miles away and single-edge. Maybe not.



When I go back I will try some different aiming of the antenna and see what happens. It was getting late and we had problems with the telescoping mast and the 7698 had it's own problems putting it together.


----------



## William_K_F

Hi,


I'm looking for a cut channel antenna for VHF channel 12. Seems to be very little out there, only could find this one for $200:

http://www.tvantenna.com/products/co...BTY-10-HB.html 


Hoping to find for less.


Anyone know of a good choice? Doesn't need to be fancy, but I only want the one station to avoid signal noise issues when mixed with the UHF.


Thanks.


-William


----------



## Digital Rules

You may want to try Wade Antenna. The prices aren't listed, so you will have to e-mail or call them.

http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/cutchannel.pdf 


Have you considered the Winegard YA-1713? It appears to have the same amount of gain on channel 12 as the Wade.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=YA1713 


What kind of signal noise issues are you concerned with?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Anyone know of a good choice? Doesn't need to be fancy, but I only want the one station to avoid signal noise issues when mixed with the UHF.



Post your TVFool png image. Yeah, what kind of noise ? Electrical ?


----------



## William_K_F

 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...61b414951d8a03 


I have the this UHF antenna:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EHWCDW 


Issue is that NBC loses signal lock periodically when viewing, say once per 15 minutes of viewing.


----------



## David-the-dtv-ma




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *William_K_F* /forum/post/16472385
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> 
> I'm looking for a cut channel antenna for VHF channel 12. Seems to be very little out there, only could find this one for $200:
> 
> http://www.tvantenna.com/products/co...BTY-10-HB.html
> 
> 
> Hoping to find for less.
> 
> 
> Anyone know of a good choice? Doesn't need to be fancy, but I only want the one station to avoid signal noise issues when mixed with the UHF.
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> -William



When you attemt to watch ch12 do you have any kind of signal measurement?


Are all the stations in the same direction?


If not then


Do you plan to use a rotor or do you plan to have a seperate antenna pointed to each station?



The UHF may be bringing in interfernce on the VHF band like ch12. If you are by chance using a channel master 7777 pre amp then set it up for seperate inputs & connect the antennas tyo the ports sperately.


If not using that preamp the VHF/UHF antenna joiner will keep the VHF interfernce from coming in from the UHF antenna avaiable at

http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm 


But if ch 12 is strong enough any good VHF or VHF high band any may get it. I do know that some folks do not want an antenna that has the low band [ch2-ch6] element . They are big, ugly & cause a log of unnecessary wind load. So I could understand if you do not want a VHF ch2-ch13 antenna also.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

You're trying to pick up a -70 dBm signal with an antenna that has about a -10 dB gain on the desired channel. Not very good odds of succeeding.


You might be getting noise into the system. Use an FM trap if your preamp doesn't have one, it can lessen the effects of undesirable harmonics from FM band broadcasts on the high VHF channels.


Your best bet is to add a 7-13 stick along with the suggested 7777 PA.


----------



## systems2000

UHF antennas have a frequency range of 470 MHZ and above (to 810 MHZ), since NBC is at 204-210 MHz and your reception level is below -65 dBm, either of those two VHF-High antennas should work. Be advised that, since channel 12 is a 37 mile, 2-edge station, there are times you may lose it.

*NOTE:* I missed the previous post until I posted. You may want to use a HLSJ to remove all frequencies below channel 7. You could also use a UVSJ to combine the antennas before the pre-amp.


----------



## William_K_F

I'm concerned that my link is not working since there is mention of KSPA and KLOS which I do not see and have not heard of. See attached image.


From memory, the signal measurement is around 60 to 80. All the stations I would like to get are at two angles which are close to each other: 28 and 323 degrees. I do not want to use a rotor on the antenna.


CBS: 29

NBC: 12

ABC: 24

FOX: 56

PBS: 30


I just have a UHF antenna and and almost getting enough signal for 12 NBC, so would like to add a cut antenna that only gets twelve to minimize and noise introduced by a second antenna. Was preferring to avoid high band and instead get cut to just 12. Anyone know a good place to get one?


I will switch to the channel master 7777 pre amp, thanks for the suggestion.


If there is not a good cut channel 12 antenna, please recommend a good 7-13 antenna. Is this a good choice: Winegard YA 1713 Prostar 1000 10 El. Hi-Band VHF Antenna?


Thanks.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *William_K_F* /forum/post/16477069
> 
> 
> If there is not a good cut channel 12 antenna, please recommend a good 7-13 antenna. Is this a good choice: Winegard YA 1713 Prostar 1000 10 El. Hi-Band VHF Antenna?



I feel the YA-1713 would be a good choice for your situation. Combine the Winegard with your present UHF antenna using a UVSJ, & additional noise issues shouldn't be a concern. I wouldn't worry about FM issues unless you are less than 2 miles away from a full power FM station.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *David-the-dtv-ma* /forum/post/16475599
> 
> 
> What do you watch for ABC & CBS?
> 
> If you are watching WLOS for ABC or WSPA ofr CBS , they are going put the digital signal over ch13 & 7 in June.



William_K_F is in California, and the ch12 that he's trying to get is in the SF Bay area. The stations you've named above are in upstate South Carolina. I was watching them just a little while ago.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *William_K_F* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> If there is not a good cut channel 12 antenna, please recommend a good 7-13 antenna. Is this a good choice: Winegard YA 1713 Prostar 1000 10 El. Hi-Band VHF Antenna?



I use the YA-1713. It gives me a very good signal on a digital channel 8 which is 7-8 dB weaker than the ch 12 that you're trying to get.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Don't waste your time agonizing over a channel 12-cut antenna or yor money in buying one. You STILL have other high-VHF signals that WILL be coming from SF in less than 4 weeks. You must plan for post June 12th.


The 7-13 antenna addition is the only thing that makes any sense.


----------



## systems2000

KLOS is a FM rock station on 95.5MHz in Los Angeles, CA.


----------



## wildwillie6

I have an old ChannelMaster Join-tenna for UHF 49 in my current antenna system. It works great to combine a signal that's 90 degrees off axis from my main signals.


After June 12, I may need to make some changes -- and that led me to wonder: Is anybody still offering the Join-tenna (or something similar) for sale? (Seems I heard the Join-tenna itself was discontinued.)


----------



## David-the-dtv-ma




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/16477276
> 
> 
> William_K_F is in California, and the ch12 that he's trying to get is in the SF Bay area. The stations you've named above are in upstate South Carolina. I was watching them just a little while ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I use the YA-1713. It gives me a very good signal on a digital channel 8 which is 7-8 dB weaker than the ch 12 that you're trying to get.




Opps.


I forgot that this antenna topic could be visited by some one with problems from any where.


----------



## ctdish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wildwillie6* /forum/post/16481286
> 
> 
> I have an old ChannelMaster Join-tenna for UHF 49 in my current antenna system. It works great to combine a signal that's 90 degrees off axis from my main signals.
> 
> 
> After June 12, I may need to make some changes -- and that led me to wonder: Is anybody still offering the Join-tenna (or something similar) for sale? (Seems I heard the Join-tenna itself was discontinued.)



look here:
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Ant...Jointennas.htm


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wildwillie6* /forum/post/16481286
> 
> 
> I have an old ChannelMaster Join-tenna for UHF 49 in my current antenna system. It works great to combine a signal that's 90 degrees off axis from my main signals.
> 
> 
> After June 12, I may need to make some changes -- and that led me to wonder: Is anybody still offering the Join-tenna (or something similar) for sale? (Seems I heard the Join-tenna itself was discontinued.)



Warren Electric still has them.


----------



## holl_ands

Tin Lee of Canada makes AC7 Single Channel Injector and higher performance AC7-CE:
http://www.tinlee.com/MATV_headend.p...IGNALINJECTORS 
http://www.tinlee.com/CATV-Signal-Injector.php?active=1 

Call/email to obtain detailed specs & price$$$...


----------



## ctdish

I use a special Tinlee multi channel combiner on VHF and dual channel notch filters on UHF. The have way better performance than the Jointenna devices. I think they will also make a dual channel injector if you ask. Also they will make things not on their regular model list if you explain what you want to do. The prices I have paid are between 100 to 125dollars each.

John


----------



## Konrad2

systems2000 writes:

> I don't understand why manufacturers are taking so long to

> designed and produced digital OTA equipment for the

> Post-Transition configurations (ie. Pre-amps, Amps, Antennas,

> Filters, etc.). Specifically for VHF-Hi and UHF - limited

> to channel 51 at the high end.


UHF antennas could benefit from being optimized for a narrower bandwidth.

It isn't clear to me what should be different on pre-amps and amps?


Channel 51 ends at 698 MHz. Paco-Macom makes a LPF-700 50 dB filter, so

that is only 2 MHz off, and with manufacturing tolerances and the nature

of filters at that frequency I suspect that you'd be hard pressed to

tell the difference between the LPF-700 and a similar LPF-698. I

have the LPF-700 and it is hard to see the difference it makes to a

low power ntsc channel 54 710-716Mhz. This was a bit surprising, since

filtering out VHF makes a big improvement to the same channel 54, so 54

is sensitive to the ratio of its strength to other stations. I

don't have a frequency response graph of the LPF-700, but I suspect

that 710-716Mhz is in the sloping transition region. NTSC must

handle a sloping frequency response better than I expected.


What I haven't found is off-the-shelf HPF-174 and HPF-470 filters

similar to the LPF-216 and LPF-700. We seem to be stuck choosing

between using HLSJ and UVSJ diplexors as high-pass filters, or

paying for a custom filter.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> What I haven't found is off-the-shelf HPF-174 and HPF-470 filters
> 
> similar to the LPF-216 and LPF-700. We seem to be stuck choosing
> 
> between using HLSJ and UVSJ diplexors as high-pass filters, or
> 
> paying for a custom filter.



That's sort of my point. Why hasn't someone come up with a LPF-700 type filter that starts at 470MHz instead of 5MHZ?


For VHF-High and UHF reception and clean-up, you need a HLSJ to block frequencies below 174MHz on the VHF antenna, then you need a LPF-700 to eliminate frequencies above 700MHz on the UHF antenna, and then these need to be fed into the UVSJ to block frequencies above 216MHz on the VHF line and block frequencies below 470MHz on the UHF line.


It would be nice to see a single product that does this, with a low insertion loss and also available in 300 ohm.


As for the DA's and pre-amps, with a narrower bandwith to amplify, I would think LNA's could become more efficient and powerful. The input filter circuits could be redesigned to offer the ability to filter out VHF-Low (much like the FM Trap) and have a cut-off at 700MHz, instead of 806MHz.

*NOTE:* UVSJ = 5-1000MHz and HLSJ 54-108MHz/175-216MHZ


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> It isn't clear to me what should be different on pre-amps and amps?



Basically nothing, their bandwidth is fine. What pre-amps would benefit most from is using newer, lower noise chips. It seems most manufacturers are stuck with chips from the last millenium, heh.


----------



## Konrad2

>> What I haven't found is off-the-shelf HPF-174 and HPF-470 filters

>> similar to the LPF-216 and LPF-700. We seem to be stuck choosing

>> between using HLSJ and UVSJ diplexors as high-pass filters, or

>> paying for a custom filter.


> That's sort of my point. Why hasn't someone come up with a LPF-700

> type filter that starts at 470MHz instead of 5MHZ?


They have. What I should have written is that I haven't found

anyone who sells them in the US. Soontai makes BPF-174-216,

HPF-174, HPF-470, etc. http://www.soontai.com Also
http://www.specialelektronik.se www.tratec.net


----------



## AntAltMike

Last time I communicated with Soontai, they had a minimum order quantity of 500 units of one value. You'd have to find a domestic distributer who might have had a batch of values useful to the United States consumer broadcast spectrum.


Making your own VHF bandpass filter using an HLSJ and a UVSJ works just fine and only costs a few dollars. The "V" side of the UVSJ rolls off at about 240 MHz to a rejection depth of over 30dB.


You can buy 700 MHz lowpass filters from Channel Plus, probably for around $40. You can buy the from Soontai for a couple of bucks each if you order 500. I have previously contacted other companies in the master antenna headend business to see if I could get them to commit to take quantities of custom made filters from me if I bought 500 of one value cylindrical filter, or made the minumum purchase of 1000 UHF-BPF tunable bandppass filters, but I never could get anyone to commit beyond a couple dozen units.


There aren't going to be many filtering products made for consumers, as the age of the hobbiest ended decades ago. Go into a Radio Shack and try to find parts to build anything with. They aren't there.


----------



## systems2000

Do a search for LPF-700 and you'll find them for under $25.


----------



## systems2000

Maybe we can get http://www.SolidSignal.com , http://www.SummitSource.com , or http://www.Sadoun.com to carry them.


----------



## ctdish

Thanks to some help from Marc Dodge here are frequency sweeps from a channel 39 Jointenna. The filters are quite wide. If you look at the 10 dB points the notch is about 5 channels wide and the bandpass is about 12 channels wide.

John


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/16510469
> 
> 
> If you look at the 10 dB points the notch is about 5 channels wide and the bandpass is about 12 channels wide.



It's interesting that the notch is asymmetrical. The third channel higher should be fine but you must to go four channels down to get out of the notch. IE, channels 36-41 would be compromised.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland

holl_ands,


I noticed in some of your post that you said the Winegard YA-1713 had a 1:1 balun and that it had a high insertion loss. Just curious, have you tried a 1:1 coaxial balun (75Ω balanced to 75Ω unbalanced)?


BTW, I have the Winegard YA-1713 but I am in fairly close proximity to the transmitters of interest so I so not have a signal level problem.


----------



## holl_ands

No, the whole kit and kaboodle (YA-1713 plus a Zig-Zag) is in my son's attic waiting for L.A. to switch on Hi-VHF DTV...soon...


I don't know YA-1713's 1:1 Balun insertion loss....it's a ferrite transformer....shouldn't be too bad...UHF is more of a problem.


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: Ken Nist updated the HDTVPrimer Antenna Comparison webpage:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/comparing.html 

including recent updates to the new antenna webpage:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html


----------



## holl_ands

Antennas Direct website now lists the C5 Hi-VHF Loop Antenna--availability late June:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/C5-Cle...V-antenna.html 

including Spec Sheet/Assy Inst:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/pdf/C5...structions.pdf


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16375726
> 
> 
> General consensus is that the Channel Master CM7000 is the best CECB. Although I've not had one to try, my best luck has been with the APEX DT502 (has S-Video & Reminder function - No channel add) and Sunkey SK801ATSC (no recall function).
> 
> 
> There is a thread here that deals with antennas, rotors, & pre-amps/DA's.



I have a CM7000 as well as the RS Zenith and one other (cant recall the third one)...The RS current model (Zenith) is just as good as the CM7000 except for aspect display...when showing a SD only (408i) channel on the screen in normal 4x3, the picture does NOT fill the screen...On a HD (720 or 1080) channel, it does not allow you to change the aspect and fills the screen in widescreen (16x9) unless the show is SD then it goes 4x3 and STILL fills the screen but on a SD only channel, it shows it in a weird way. I use ZOOM on the SD channels but sometimes it cuts out parts of the screen I dont want to miss...but if I go "normal" you get a black border all the way the picture..which I dont like either...the CM7000 does not do that...both as sensitive and I cannot see one above the other in that area...I like the easier rmt control of the Zenith...just dont lose it or having stolen like what happened at my office...someone walked off with the remote...luckily I have one at home so I was able to reprogram the box at work...but after 6/12 I will need to rescan or manually add in some VHF flash cuts....oh well....


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> systems2000 writes:
> 
> > I don't understand why manufacturers are taking so long to
> 
> > designed and produced digital OTA equipment for the
> 
> > Post-Transition configurations (ie. Pre-amps, Amps, Antennas,
> 
> > Filters, etc.). Specifically for VHF-Hi and UHF - limited
> 
> > to channel 51 at the high end.



Remember, LP analogs on 52-69 DONOT have to vacate immediately...60-69 may go quickly but 52-60 are somewhat slower to go..they dont have to vacate until the new spectrum owners ask them to....and are ready to take over the channel(s) in question. I have 3 such LP Analogs in my area all in the 6x range that will be staying on after 6/12...true they WILL go away eventually but not right now!


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16489562
> 
> 
> Tin Lee of Canada makes AC7 Single Channel Injector and higher performance AC7-CE:
> http://www.tinlee.com/MATV_headend.p...IGNALINJECTORS
> http://www.tinlee.com/CATV-Signal-Injector.php?active=1
> 
> Call/email to obtain detailed specs & price$$$...



The AC7-E series are a little better than Channel Master Jointennas. Their single channel passband can only be tuned up to UHF channel 43. They lose about 3.5 dB on the single channel and 2.5 dB on the passband. They obliterate the adjacent channel, but then slope through the alternate lower and upper channels. If your +2 and -2 channels are robust, they will withstand that degradation. Based on my familiarity with Tin Lee's pricing on comparable products, I bet these cost the better part of $200 each.


The AC7-CE is used to delete a single cable TV channel (city council, school system) and insert a locally generated channel. At VHF highband frequencies, you can see slight degradation on the lower adjacent NTSC channel. They can only be tuned up to UHF channel 27, and they probably cost around a thousand dollars each.


----------



## ngarrang




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16500841
> 
> 
> That's sort of my point. Why hasn't someone come up with a LPF-700 type filter that starts at 470MHz instead of 5MHZ?
> 
> 
> For VHF-High and UHF reception and clean-up, you need a HLSJ to block frequencies below 174MHz on the VHF antenna, then you need a LPF-700 to eliminate frequencies above 700MHz on the UHF antenna, and then these need to be fed into the UVSJ to block frequencies above 216MHz on the VHF line and block frequencies below 470MHz on the UHF line.
> 
> 
> It would be nice to see a single product that does this, with a low insertion loss and also available in 300 ohm.
> 
> 
> As for the DA's and pre-amps, with a narrower bandwith to amplify, I would think LNA's could become more efficient and powerful. The input filter circuits could be redesigned to offer the ability to filter out VHF-Low (much like the FM Trap) and have a cut-off at 700MHz, instead of 806MHz.
> 
> *NOTE:* UVSJ = 5-1000MHz and HLSJ 54-108MHz/175-216MHZ



While we are lamenting non-existent products...I would love to see a device that not only took care of the above filtering, but also allowed you to plug in multiple antennae, combine then using only the strongest signals from each input and send it to the TV as one coherent signal.


No more rotators needed. Just plug in 4 to 6 antennae and make watching TV simpler, or at least more geeky.


----------



## rbarbier

 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...249df9ae5658b0 

http://www.antennasdirect.com/C4-Cle...V-antenna.html 


Channel Master 7777


Ok...


You have my location (TVfool) my antenna (C4) and my Pre-amp (7777).


I get all my Digitial stations from Los Angeles fine currently. I guess my main concern is when they switch from UHF to VHF for channel 7, 9, 11 and 13. Will my setup be good for this?


I live in an apartment (with a balcony facing the correct direction for the towers). I thought this antenna would be good for High VHF but I have been reading that it might not be. I am getting really good signals on my UHF digital stations (much better then with my Squareshooter 1000).


I am about 60 miles away from the towers in the Valley.


Thanks.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ngarrang* /forum/post/16548423
> 
> 
> While we are lamenting non-existent products...I would love to see a device that not only took care of the above filtering, but also allowed you to plug in multiple antennae, combine then using only the strongest signals from each input and send it to the TV as one coherent signal.
> 
> 
> No more rotators needed. Just plug in 4 to 6 antennae and make watching TV simpler, or at least more geeky.




PFA-6600. I pay $550 each for them. If you can find someone to retail you one, you will probably pay a couple hundred more.


They have three UHF inputs with electronically programmable bandpass filters adjustable from one channel width to seven, a VHF high input, a VHF low, ans a VHF broadband. They also have programmable automatic gain control


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16548801
> 
> 
> You have my location (TVfool) my antenna (C4) and my Pre-amp (7777).



I'd be surprised if the C4 did well on channels 7 and 9. If not, try adding an Antennacraft Y5-7-13.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16548929
> 
> 
> I'd be surprised if the C4 did well on channels 7 and 9. If not, try adding an Antennacraft Y5-7-13.




I don't think I can put that on my balcony. Not that my balcony is small, but I think the biggest allowed per the FCC without me getting in trouble with the managers would be 39".


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16548987
> 
> 
> I don't think I can put that on my balcony. Not that my balcony is small, but I think the biggest allowed per the FCC without me getting in trouble with the managers would be 39".



No, you misunderstand the FCC rule.


There is no size limit for an over-the-air antenna in the rule.


As long as the antenna is on an area that is for your exclusive use or control and does not extend beyond that boundary, it is probably in compliance with the FCC rule.


Note that I said "probably". Thare are a few exeptions such as historical districts, etc.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16548987
> 
> 
> I don't think I can put that on my balcony. Not that my balcony is small, but I think the biggest allowed per the FCC without me getting in trouble with the managers would be 39".



They have a new VHF model C5 that would fit your size restriction.

http://www.antennasdirect.com/clearstream-antennas.html


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16549246
> 
> 
> They have a new VHF model C5 that would fit your size restriction.
> 
> http://www.antennasdirect.com/clearstream-antennas.html



Yeah. I saw that one coming next month. I would have to have two antennas but it is a thought. I know I can run the C5 into my VHF input and the C4 into my UHF input of my 7777.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16549173
> 
> 
> No, you misunderstand the FCC rule.
> 
> 
> There is no size limit for an over-the-air antenna in the rule.
> 
> 
> As long as the antenna is on an area that is for your exclusive use or control and does not extend beyond that boundary, it is probably in compliance with the FCC rule.
> 
> 
> Note that I said "probably". Thare are a few exeptions such as historical districts, etc.



I see this from the FCC site:


Q: What types of antennas are covered by the rule?


A: The rule applies to the following types of antennas:


(1) A "dish" antenna that is one meter (39.37") or less in diameter (or any size dish if located in Alaska) and is designed to receive direct broadcast satellite service, including direct-to-home satellite service, or to receive or transmit fixed wireless signals via satellite.


(2) An antenna that is one meter or less in diameter or diagonal measurement and is designed to receive video programming services via broadband radio service (wireless cable) or to receive or transmit fixed wireless signals other than via satellite.


(3) An antenna that is designed to receive local television broadcast signals. Masts higher than 12 feet above the roofline may be subject to local permitting requirements.

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html 



This is where I came up with the 1 meter size antenna.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> (1) A "dish" antenna that is one meter (39.37") or less in diameter (or any size dish if located in Alaska) and *is designed to receive direct broadcast satellite service,* including direct-to-home satellite service, or to receive or transmit fixed wireless signals via satellite.



Notice the emphasis I added...


That section only pertains to that type of antenna.



If you read item (3) that pertains to OTA, you will see it contains no such restriction.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16548987
> 
> 
> I don't think I can put that on my balcony. Not that my balcony is small, but I think the biggest allowed per the FCC without me getting in trouble with the managers would be 39".



You could get a Y5-7-13 and cut off the last two elements. You'd make yourself a Y3-7-13 that would be about 32" long.


----------



## dreater




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/16548903
> 
> 
> PFA-6600. I apay $550 each for them. If you can find someone to retail you one, you will probably pay a couple hundred more.
> 
> 
> They have three UHF inputs with electronically programmable bandpass filters adjustable from one channel width to seven, a VHF high input, a VHF low, ans a VHF broadband. They also have programmable automatic gain control



Available from solidsigna l, for a mere $750 or so, shipped.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Nice Blonder UHF Ch. 14-19 yagi for $39 on the bay.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is a classic Archer combo , but he's pretty proud of it.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16548987
> 
> 
> I don't think I can put that on my balcony. Not that my balcony is small, but I think the biggest allowed per the FCC without me getting in trouble with the managers would be 39".



RCA ANT751 is a new, medium range ("40-mile") antenna designed for Hi-VHF plus UHF.

I took a photo at CES2009 (Jan2009). Click image twice to see full rez version:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/ces2...=0&w=1&s=0&z=4 


And is readily available:
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...ct_id=10828410 
http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out.../dp/B0024R4B5C 

Walmart will ship to your local store. Shipping charges may or may not explain big cost difference.


Amazon's dimensions appear to be for the shipping box...not the antenna.

However, using 36-inches for the length of the shipping box, from the following

we see that the boom exactly fits that length...and width is about the same...or less:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...45184&csid=_25


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> RCA ANT751 is a new, medium range ("40-mile") antenna designed for Hi-VHF plus UHF.



Holy cow, thats a clipped down version of this 30+ year old thing I have ! Same phasing line style and those bent bars under the uhf driven element too.











Ill take a photo of it from the same angle you have this afternoon, heh.


----------



## IDRick

The RCA ANT751 appears very similar to the EZ HD antenna and close to the Winegard 7000R. Only the Winegard reports gain (5 to 6 dBd for UHF). I have used the EZ HD and it performed reasonably well for a small antenna. My mclapp 10x9.5 4-bay does significantly better though...







Margin to dropout increased by 6 to 10 dB with the mclapp 4-bay.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Tigerdirect has lots of large pictures of the RCA ANT751, close ups and different angles.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...45184&csid=_25


----------



## IDRick

Amazing, according to tiger direct:


"The RCA ANT751 offers Film Mode option that when turned on, the intelligent signal processing of the TruScan Digital Reality feature recognizes incoming video signals and progressively converts them to achieve optimum digital picture performance. The RCA ANT751 also recognizes when original film sources have been modified and can automatically convert the analog frame rate back to its original format to bring out the detail—a process commonly referred to as reverse 3:2 pulldown."


How does it do that? It's a small passive antenna!


----------



## 300ohm

And here it is, from a similar angle. The long vhf element is 104.75 inches tip to tip. The short vhf element is 52.125 inches tip to tip. The uhf folded dipole is 12.75 inches tip to tip.











The plastic pieces on the back arent original to the antenna. I added those for extra strength and to hold the correct spacing.


Last summer I cleaned it and had it on the roof for a fair test. From 62 miles away, vhf performance was surprisingly good. Uhf was pretty poor. More directors would probably help that.


----------



## Jim Miller

rbarbier: per the fcc rule you can put up any antenna size you want for local broadcast reception subject only to height restrictions, "historical area" restrictions and your own personal boundaries.


if you want a 10ft beam length that's no problem.


jtm


----------



## 300ohm

Yep. There is a youtube video of some ham who put up a monster antenna in a high scale neighborhood. The little old ladies were up in arms, but there wasnt a darn thing they could do about it, heh.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16554932
> 
> 
> Yep. There is a youtube video of some ham who put up a monster antenna in a high scale neighborhood. The little old ladies were up in arms, but there wasnt a darn thing they could do about it, heh.



All he had to do was use it for his TV... OTARD doesn't cover the ham antennas.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16554729
> 
> 
> And here it is, from a similar angle. The long vhf element is 104.75 inches tip to tip. The short vhf element is 52.125 inches tip to tip. The uhf folded dipole is 12.75 inches tip to tip.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The plastic pieces on the back arent original to the antenna. I added those for extra strength and to hold the correct spacing.
> 
> 
> Last summer I cleaned it and had it on the roof for a fair test. From 62 miles away, vhf performance was surprisingly good. Uhf was pretty poor. More directors would probably help that.



Take a very careful look at the RCA ANT751 antenna I photographed at CES2009 and are just now coming to market.

It has 4 (vice 3) VHF elements....plus 4 (vice 2) UHF elements. It also is at least one third the width and at least half the length.


What you are describing covers the Lo-VHF band, whereas ANT751 is Hi-VHF and up. And I've actually SEEN how compact it is.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> All he had to do was use it for his TV... OTARD doesn't cover the ham antennas.



Yeah, but hams have been covered by other similar rules for even longer, heh. So if the landlord/homeowners association doesnt like the OTARD rules, you could tell em that youre studying for your FCC license and really put a fear into them, heh heh.



> Quote:
> What you are describing covers the Lo-VHF band, whereas ANT751 is Hi-VHF and up.



I know, but the build and phasing lines structures are so similar, its almost scary.


----------



## stockwiz

So what kind of antenna would I need for the place I'll be moving into soon? It's in a bit of a low lying area with a hill to the south and raising the antenna up to 50 feet or keeping it at 5 feet doesn't seem to change the results at all.. so a large antenna say mounted on a mast 10 feet above the ground, anchored into the ground with cement work?


Just looking to get the local channels in the 170 degree area on the map.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...249d5b60aa3b3f


----------



## EscapeVelocity

 CM 3018 on the cheap. Poorly worded listing.


Should work well for you.


----------



## Me!




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16556448
> 
> 
> Yeah, but hams have been covered by other similar rules for even longer, heh. So if the landlord/homeowners association doesnt like the OTARD rules, you could tell em that youre studying for your FCC license and really put a fear into them, heh heh.



Unfortunately PRB-1 (which I assume is what you may be thinking of) doesn't preempt CC&R (covenants, conditions and restrictions - a binding contract)







So odds are, if there's a homeowners association, there's CC&R's, and these days most CC&R prohibit ham antennas. The only way this is going to change is if the Feds pass a bill to override these damn things. But at the moment most home owners associations could care less that you're a HAM (or studying to be one).


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stockwiz* /forum/post/16557250
> 
> 
> Just looking to get the local channels in the 170 degree area on the map.



A Winegard HD7694P or Antennacraft HBU-22 will work if you are willing to accept occasional fades on KCSD (PBS). A 7777 preamp is right for you.


To insure best reception of PBS you have options.


Get a larger antenna in the same series.

Aim a second antenna at KSMN and combine it with either a backwards splitter or a channel 15 Jointenna. If you use the Jointenna I'd suggest a 4 bay UHF only. To try the backwards splitter, a more directive 8 bay UHF is less likely to interfere with reception of the other stations.


The preamp is also necessary in order to split the signal to multiple TVs.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> KCSD (PBS).
> 
> To insure best reception of PBS you have options.



In a 2 edge situation like yours, you may do better on PBS trying for KESD-DT on channel 8.


----------



## KNP 2516




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dsaar* /forum/post/16335762
> 
> 
> Thanks to those who replied to my original message, (02/26/09). To recap, the basic problem is bad digital reception at my relatives house about 60 miles outside of Boston.
> 
> 
> I decided to go with the CM 7777, and after receiving it and some other parts, finally got a chance to install it the other weekend. The result was the best analog reception I've ever seen there, but only the top 3 channels, (from the TVFool chart), when I switch to digital. So the question is what next?
> 
> After spending some time with the antenna, it looks a lot like a CM 3018. Is there much hope that upgrading the antenna to something like the HD8200 would make much difference? Is it safe to assume that as long as you're making a good connection, the age of the antenna doesn't matter? Post transition, the next two target channels are real 7 and 9, so it can't just be a UHF solution. Are there other tips and tricks I can try?
> 
> It's frustrating because the analog picture is now very good. I suspect that if I can't get this to work with a somewhat educated effort, there are a lot of other people who's reception is going to go dark this summer.



Analog television is on VHF - the low frequency's.


DTV is in UHF - the high frequency's.


The low frequency's - you used a large antenna - because of the wavelength. UHF - you use a smaller antenna.


You have to remember that the more elements a antenna has, the more gain it has.


The 8200U has more elements than most any other antenna out there.


Your 30+ year old antenna cannot compete with a brand new 8200U


One reason being that the old style antenna used a 300 ohm wire and the 8200 is made to use the 75 ohm wire from the factory.


By just hooking up the 7777 pre amp = you should get a much better signal than with your old antenna, as long as you use a good high quality QUAD SHIELD wire like the Belden 1829 AC..


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Yeah, but hams have been covered by other similar rules for even longer, heh. So if the landlord/homeowners association doesnt like the OTARD rules, you could tell em that youre studying for your FCC license and really put a fear into them, heh heh.



NO!!!!!!!!! *YOU ARE WRONG!!!* Hams have NO such rules permitting them to put up ANY size antenna, etc....even the OTARD rules limit you on what you CAN put up and that only covers TV reception; HAM antennas are EXCLUDED from that law..and it states so!!!....it must be REASONABLE....it cannot be AS BIG AS YOU WANT it....YES the little old ladies can go to their city council (if this involved a house in a NON HOA subdivision) or to the HOA if it is, and complain....READ THE RULES DUMMY!!!! YOU CANNOT put up ANYTHING...*FCC PRB-1* was ONLY against CITY's and other GOVERNMENT entities PROHIBITING ham antennas...but you ARE STILL BOUND BY CERTAIN RULES (GEESH some folks DONT GET IT!!!!) YOU JUST CANT SAY FEDERAL LAW PROTECTS ME and thats that!!! THEY KNOW THE LAW (*Their LAWYERS damn sure will*) and you WILL get sued if you have that kind of attitude.....READ ANDN LEARN AND FOLLOW THE RULES......Otherwise, you may be paying a fine or other such "service" and your antennas WILL be down....


HAMS covered by similar rules?? NOPE SORRY, not against HOAs!!!!!! YOU ARE 100% wrong there.....I HATE it when people spew total LIES instead of the FACTS......Google PRB-1 and OTARD and read the REAL RULES....and readjust YOUR thinking......


DAMN!


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KNP 2516* /forum/post/16569400
> 
> 
> Analog television is on VHF - the low frequency's.
> 
> 
> DTV is in UHF - the high frequency's.



That's not true. There are many DTV stations on VHF and there will be many more after June 12th. In Boston there will be two high band VHF stations WHDH 7 and WMUR 9.


The 8200U recommendation is fine for gain and it does VHF very well. Yet, it will pick up FM stations and FM overload is likely. The HD7698P is smaller and has the same gain as the 8200U on the channels that can be received.


Even then, both VHF and UHF stations from Boston will be hard to receive 100% of the time.


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16554932
> 
> 
> Yep. There is a youtube video of some ham who put up a monster antenna in a high scale neighborhood. The little old ladies were up in arms, but there wasnt a darn thing they could do about it, heh.



IF he didnt have the proper building permit AND if the HOA didnt approve it, HE IS IN TROUBLE....The LITTLE OLD LADIES CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!! Get your head out of the hole in the ground and READ the rules....you're the type who WOULD ruin it for everyone else with that attitude.....


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16557977
> 
> 
> A Winegard HD7694P or Antennacraft HBU-22 will work if you are willing to accept occasional fades on KCSD (PBS). A 7777 preamp is right for you.
> 
> 
> To insure best reception of PBS you have options.
> 
> 
> Get a larger antenna in the same series.
> 
> Aim a second antenna at KSMN and combine it with either a backwards splitter or a channel 15 Jointenna. If you use the Jointenna I'd suggest a 4 bay UHF only. To try the backwards splitter, a more directive 8 bay UHF is less likely to interfere with reception of the other stations.
> 
> 
> The preamp is also necessary in order to split the signal to multiple TVs.



Agreed, I would go after the Sioux Falls stations unless original poster wants the MN channel which only KSMN-DT would have in that area.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> HAMS covered by similar rules?? NOPE SORRY, not against HOAs!!!!!! YOU ARE 100% wrong there.....I HATE it when people spew total LIES instead of the FACTS......Google PRB-1 and OTARD and read the REAL RULES....and readjust YOUR thinking..



Oops, sorry. Im not a ham and only peruse their magazines from time to time. After seeing the TV news story I thought the FCC had passed this rule that I recalled from long ago, I guess they didnt. http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...amateur&page=2 


> Quote:
> The LITTLE OLD LADIES CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!



I guess there will be a follow up story, eventually.


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KNP 2516* /forum/post/16569400
> 
> 
> Your 30+ year old antenna cannot compete with a brand new 8200U
> 
> 
> One reason being that the old style antenna used a 300 ohm wire and the 8200 is made to use the 75 ohm wire from the factory.



lots of new antennas are to 300 ohm and you use a balun to feed the coax


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16570336
> 
> 
> Oops, sorry. Im not a ham and only peruse their magazines from time to time.



I knew that, if you were you would be calling yourself 50ohm.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnpost* /forum/post/16571181
> 
> 
> I knew that, if you were you would be calling yourself 50ohm.




300ohm is his legal name. His nickname is "twinlead".


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wendell R. Breland* /forum/post/16538482
> 
> 
> holl_ands,
> 
> 
> I noticed in some of your post that you said the Winegard YA-1713 had a 1:1 balun and that it had a high insertion loss. Just curious, have you tried a 1:1 coaxial balun (75Ω balanced to 75Ω unbalanced)?
> 
> 
> BTW, I have the Winegard YA-1713 but I am in fairly close proximity to the transmitters of interest so I so not have a signal level problem.



The impedance of the dipole of an antenna that needs an industry-standard balun is 300 ohms. It is my understanding that in an inductive circuit, the maximum power transfer from source to load takes place when the load impedance is equal to the source impedance. So if you use a so-called 1:1 coaxial balun, and in doing so are placing a 75 ohm load across a 300 ohm source, how much power reduction is incurred due to the impedance mismatch?


BTW, the actual signal loss incurred using an outdoor style, 300 ohm to 75 ohm balun with its two separate wire leads can vary by a couple dB at different frequencies, depending on how the leads are dressed. You will actually do better using an "indoor" balun on an outdoor antenna, since the indoor balun uses twinlead that keeps the two wires optimally spaced.


----------



## milehighmike

Quotes from portions of post by Dr Touchstone:


> Quote:
> even the OTARD rules limit you on what you CAN put up and that only covers TV reception



You need to read OTARD. OTARD covers satellite dishes, video/internet services, and OTA TV.


> Quote:
> it must be REASONABLE



I'm not sure what you are referring to but reasonable is not a term used in OTARD to describe OTA TV antennas. Once again, you need to read OTARD.


> Quote:
> YOU JUST CANT SAY FEDERAL LAW PROTECTS ME and thats that!!! THEY KNOW THE LAW (Their LAWYERS damn sure will) and you WILL get sued if you have that kind of attitude.....READ ANDN LEARN AND FOLLOW THE RULES......Otherwise, you may be paying a fine or other such "service" and your antennas WILL be down....



Really? You can rely on Federal law, provided, in this case, you are in compliance with OTARD. And "their" lawyers know the law? Don't bet on it. There are many HOA's, including mine and cites I've seen from other posters, that try to illegally prohibit antennas allowed by OTARD. These HOA's do this either to try to intimidate homeowners from installing "unsightly" antennas or because they don't know the law.


This was not in your post but has been posted many times on these threads regarding OTARD having a 12' height limitation for antennas. There are no restrictions on the height of an antenna installation. The only restriction regarding height contained in OTARD is that if the mast is over 12 feet, its installation is subject to local zoning reguirements. That usually means installing guy wires and the like.


Your post was loud. It contained very large font, bold font, underlines, and statements in all caps. You do not need to yell at us. But, more importantly, IMO, you need to get your information correct before posting it as "fact".


----------



## ngarrang




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/16548903
> 
> 
> PFA-6600. I pay $550 each for them. If you can find someone to retail you one, you will probably pay a couple hundred more.
> 
> 
> They have three UHF inputs with electronically programmable bandpass filters adjustable from one channel width to seven, a VHF high input, a VHF low, ans a VHF broadband. They also have programmable automatic gain control



It is so pretty! Maybe when the price comes down closer to $200...


----------



## holl_ands

No mismatch....

And 300-ohm isn't the only "standard" antenna impedance....most LPDAs and Yagi's are 75-ohm.


1:1 Balun is used between a 75-ohm (balanced) antenna and the 75-ohm (unbalanced) coax.

Without it the antenna pattern can be skewed and there will an increase in local noise pickup on the coax.

[The reverse of transmitter signal leakage via an unbalanced load on a Ham radio system.]


4:1 Balun performs a (low loss) impedance transformation between 300-ohm antenna and 75-ohm coax.


The Impedance of a typical wideband TV antenna varies quite a bit vs frequency.

The "Characteristic Impedance" is the "best fit" across the bandwidth.


Folded dipole, Folded dipole Yagis, Bowtie and Gray-Hoverman antennas are usually 300-ohms.

LPDAs (incl. Silver Sensor) and simple dipoles are typically 75-ohms....and should use a 1:1 Balun.

Yagi antennas (e.g. 91XG) tend to be in the 28 to 75-ohm range.


BTW: 4:1 (300 to 75 ohm) and 1:1 (75 to 75-ohm) Baluns may be "standard",

but many other ratios are possible, such as are used in the ClearSteam antennas.


The more complex the antenna is, the more opportunity to "control" the impedance

(or more likely, to lose control, including a propensity to radiate out the BACK).


In YA-1713 Log-Yagi Ken Nist modeled several years ago, he found 300-ohms "best fit".


However, earlier this year I bought a YA-1713 and found significantly different

element sizes, spacings and lengths...clearly the design had changed.

After running 4nec2 sim, I found 75-ohms "best fit" vice 300-ohms.

Careful visual inspection of the Balun revealed that it was indeed 1:1 (vice 4:1):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/wgya1713 


BTW: Winegard's 1:1 Balun is also used on all HD, CA, CH and CS model antennas.
http://search.solidsignal.com/?q=win...m&new_search=1 

The 91XG and most antennas using a unique "Balun Box" are probably NOT 300-ohm....


More 4nec2 sim runs for Yagis, 4-Bays, DBGH, LPDA and Zig-Zag LPA:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis 
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/4bay 
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/grayhoverman 
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/zigzaglpa 


In a Zig-Zag LPA, impedance blow up must be avoided, the opposite of a Yagi,

with impedance frequently UNDER 75-ohms....


----------



## holl_ands

*RCA ANT751 Bottom View Photo* I also took at CES2009:
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...//P1040183.JPG 

Click on image to see higher rez...

Here's an easy link to the side view I posted earlier:
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...A%20ANT751.JPG 


Look at the Driven Element (the one with thumbnuts for antenna connection).

I'm still puzzling out what the two short stubs might do...the ones that seem to go

part way forward and backwards, but not quite making contact to adjacent elements....


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/16571283
> 
> 
> 300ohm is his legal name. His nickname is "twinlead".



I thought it was "ladder-line"....much lower "loss when wet"...


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16573178
> 
> 
> Look at the Driven Element (the one with thumbnuts for antenna connection).
> 
> I'm still puzzling out what the two short stubs might do...the ones that seem to go
> 
> part way forward and backwards, but not quite making contact to adjacent elements....



If the links in post #9418 for holl_ands photos are broken, I have posted close-ups of the stubs later in this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=9426 


His link in post #9394 still seems to work (clicking on that image brings up the original 3072 x 2304):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/ces2...=0&w=1&s=0&z=4 103K, 1024 x 768, options at bottom

Clicking on "Prev" at the upper left corner takes you to Photo 14 that is the bottom view



They appear to be UHF isolation stubs, that are usually 1/4 wave at the blocking frequency; both sections of the antenna will pick up UHF---one source must be eliminated before the UHF and VHF sections are combined into one downlead.


Reference:

TV Antennas and Signal Distribution Systems by M. J. Salvati

section on Isolation Networks pp 86-87

Howard W. Sams 1979 #21584

ISBN 0-672-21584-5











Look for a used copy. Anyone who is interested in TV antennas should have one. It's worth the hunt.


More references:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=7164


----------



## ctdish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16573178
> 
> *RCA ANT751 Bottom View Photo* Look at the Driven Element (the one with thumbnuts for antenna connection).
> 
> I'm still puzzling out what the two short stubs might do...the ones that seem to go
> 
> part way forward and backwards, but not quite making contact to adjacent elements....



They keep the signal from the UHF part of the antenna from being sent to the VHF part of the anternna, possibly by looking like a short at UHF frequencies.

John


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16572651
> 
> 
> BTW: Winegard's 1:1 Balun is also used on all HD, CA, CH and CS model antennas.



When I went to install my Winegard YA-1713 a few years ago it was noted the matching device was housed in a unique enclosure. I just assumed it was not a standard 4:1 balun and they used that enclosure to keep folks from using a 300Ω to 75Ω balun.


BTW, good summary on antenna types.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> ...possibly by looking like a short at UHF frequencies.



correct----the outer unconnected end of the stubs is at a high impedance point; the inner connected end acts like a short.


> Quote:
> They keep the signal from the UHF part of the antenna from being sent to the VHF part of the anternna...



Not exactly----The stubs keep the UHF signals that are picked up by the VHF section from interfering with the UHF signals picked up by the UHF section. The VHF signals picked up by the UHF section aren't as much of a problem.


I quote from the Salvati book previously mentioned:


> Quote:
> The normal procedure in designing an all-channel antenna is to apply the vhf section to the uhf section in some manner, and connect the transmission line to the output terminals of the uhf section (which now carries both uhf and vhf signals). However, the vhf section of the antenna will pick up uhf signals also, nearly always from undesired directions. These undesired uhf signals effectively destroy the directionality of the uhf antenna, and make radical changes in its gain characteristics because of phase differences between the signal of the uhf antenna and the uhf signal of the vhf antenna......
> 
> 
> For proper performance, therefore, the output of the vhf section must be applied to the uhf section in some manner that eliminates the uhf component......
> 
> 
> This means that an external blocking network must be used to "choke off" the undesired uhf signals from the vhf section. The most popular (and probably most effective) technique is the one-quarter wavelength stub. These stubs are connected across the line connecting the vhf section to the uhf section. They short-circuit the lines to signals at frequencies where the stubs are one-quarter wavelength long. By making these stubs one-quarter wavelength long at uhf frequencies, uhf signals at that point on the line are shorted, while the vhf signals are not. This technique is used in Channel Master's Ultra-Hi Crossfire series. RCA antennas use two stubs of different length (illustration shows 1/4 wave stubs for 550 and 700 MHz) for increased bandwidth, as does Winegard, Antenna Corp. of America, and Jerrold Electronics.



To think of it another way:

The stubs on the antenna are like an open-end 1/4-wave coax stub used as a trap on a distribution system.


----------



## ngarrang

A company by the name of Johannson sells a 2-input programmable filter-amplifier. All I can find is UK pricing at 144 pounds.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> This technique is used in Channel Master's Ultra-Hi Crossfire series. RCA antennas use two stubs of different length (illustration shows 1/4 wave stubs for 550 and 700 MHz) for increased bandwidth, as does Winegard, Antenna Corp. of America, and Jerrold Electronics.



Does the illustration look like this ?











The stubs are both 6.5 inches long across, but if you count the bends 7.0 inches of metal long, which would make 1/4 wavelength just below 470 mhz.


Also note that the iron rivets seem to have protected the golden anodized finish. I noticed that on my CM1221 too.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ngarrang* /forum/post/16579036
> 
> 
> A company by the name of Johannson sells a 2-input programmable filter-amplifier. All I can find is UK pricing at 144 pounds.




Johannson makes the PFA-6600 for PDI that I referenced. Can you provide a link to a site with the two input model?


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16582862
> 
> 
> Does the illustration look like this ?



Unfortunately, the illustration is just a line drawing that shows the concept. The two different length stubs in the drawing are facing in the same direction rather than in opposite directions as in holl_ands photos and your photo. That way, RCA could make a long and a short stub from one piece of metal and one common connection point for both.











The location of the stubs on the transmission line between the VHF and UHF sections is important so that it traps the UHF signals coming from the VHF section without harming the UHF signals coming from the UHF section.


I would post the two pages of the book but I am concerned about copyright. I suppose I could add a disclaimer the way my library does on a copy about being for non-commercial purposes. McGraw-Hill is very fussy about copyright which keeps me from posting their diagram of the Chireix-Mesny array that is the basis for the Hoverman. It's four bi-squares stacked side-by-side for vertical polarization.


On my dial-up connection holl_ands photos take 10 and 5 minutes to download 2.8 and 1.5 Meg files (I'm not complaining, the detail in the large files helps to see the stubs), so I have extracted the stub areas (hope holl_ands doesn't mind):




















By now, you should have an understanding of why separate UHF and VHF antennas and a UVSJ are often a better choice.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> On my dial-up connection



I know what you mean, having only recently converted to fios (but Ill never go to their pay TV, heh) from dialup. I still try to keep my images to less than 150K.


----------



## holl_ands

Uploading the ORIGINAL image WITHOUT RESIZING, *.doc, *.rtf, *.xls (et.al.) and $25/yr

(Premium Package) for 1500 HUGE files were primary reasons I chose www.imageevent.com 

Also easy to link to files. My only real gripe is it doesn't let me upload *.txt files....WTH!!!

[Which explains why I upload either *.rft or *.doc files and let the user convert to *.nec]


For the ANT751 bottom view, after you click on the (XLarge, 337x253, 26.3 KB) thumbnail,

the default view is 1024x768 (125 KB). Next click opens Original 3072x2304 (Huge: 2757 KB).

Which is barely a blink of an eye via my 12 Mbps cable modem.


I just added an 800x600 (81.1 KB) option (see below the default image).

There is an even smaller option, but another small reduction probably isn't worth it.

Let me know if it helps....and if not I'll delete the 800x600 option.

I would guess going to a smaller image size isn't going to help...


I changed the file compression setting for uploaded files for Max PQ. Above file sizes

reflect this change (grew by about 33%). Let me know if 1024x768 is "adequate".

[I reloaded the two ANT751 files...and will be in effect for all future files uploaded.]


But I'm not going to resize every ORIGINAL I post---which was a BIG reason

for going with imageevent....I could simply upload groups of ORIGINAL images as-is

(or after I crop and adjust brightness/contrast). [Unlike most popular websites...]


FYI: Imageevent doesn't need ZOOM control--simply use CTRL+ and CTRL- in web browser.


PS: Do you see controls to vary thumbnail sizes and number of images/column???

And perhaps the default image size??? [It's difficult for me to see what a user sees.]


PPS: Can you tell I'm killing time waiting for IDRick to respond to measurement Q's...


----------



## rabbit73

holl_ands:


I didn't mind the large file size because I knew that it would give me good detail in the stub area.

("Good things are worth waiting for.")


> Quote:
> But I'm not going to resize every ORIGINAL I post---



That's fine with me.


> Quote:
> PS: Do you see controls to vary thumbnail sizes and number of images/column???
> 
> And perhaps the default image size??? [It's difficult for me to see what a user sees.]



No, only the hi res file.


Thanks for the imageevent info.


For your first photo Ctrl+ and Ctrl- works well with my IE7 browser. Clicking on the image changes the pixel size, but not the file size. I don't see any way to change the file size expect the way I did it for the stub areas that I posted using crop for the photo and using my ZoomBrowser software that came with my Canon digital camera to produce a web suitable image.


> Quote:
> For the ANT751 bottom view, after you click on the (XLarge, 337x253, 26.3 KB) thumbnail,
> 
> the default view is 1024x768 (125 KB). Next click opens Original 3072x2304 (Huge: 2757 KB).
> 
> Which is barely a blink of an eye via my 12 Mbps cable modem.
> 
> 
> I just added an 800x600 (81.1 KB) option (see below the default image).
> 
> There is an even smaller option, but another small reduction probably isn't worth it.
> 
> Let me know if it helps....and if not I'll delete the 800x600 option.
> 
> I would guess going to a smaller image size isn't going to help...



I didn't see those choices when I downloaded your image from post #9418; only the high res large file came up.


I did, however see the choices you describe when I clicked on the first link in post #9394.


Wouldn't I need to logon at imageevent and be able to see your album before I would see those choices? Or, wouldn't you instead need to post the link to your album page that gives those choices?


Update sat june 6: both links in post #9418 are broken.


Best regards,

rabbit


----------



## dbdoc

Belden 1829A/AC has their DuoBond II shield (foil/braid), which is not quad shield. Their quad shield is called DuoBond IV. The 1829A takes a standard sized F56 connector and is highly recommended for satellite, cable and antenna distribution.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland

It was mentioned that baluns with separate wire leads may have their performance degraded by the way the wire leads are dressed. That one is easy to avoid, use one of the models shown below. They have standard 300Ω twin lead wire on the input (or output) side.


Winegard TV-2900 Weatherproof Transformer, info here 


MCM 33-040 Weather ResistantTransformer, info here 



It is not a concern for me as my Winegard YA-1713 has a cartridge style 1:1 balun and I use a λ/2 coaxial cable balun on my Winegard PR-9032.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wendell R. Breland* /forum/post/16575909
> 
> 
> When I went to install my Winegard YA-1713 a few years ago it was noted the matching device was housed in a unique enclosure. I just assumed it was not a standard 4:1 balun and they used that enclosure to keep folks from using a 300Ω to 75Ω balun...



I thinnk they do that just for weatherization. Both Channel Master and Winegard used "gas tight" coupling to the busses. The housings used to be over twice as tall as the Winegard housing is now, and an installer could choose from among several amplifying and non-amplifying terminal boards. I'm quite sure that there was a 300 ohm terminal board with the penetrating "tooth washers" for those who were still partial to using twinlead. In fact, I think the non-amplifier boards had both 300 ohm and 75 ohm output terminals, but I don't remember if we had to sever the output circuit that we were not using.


That coupling design proved to be very inconvenient to the installer/service person, since he would have to carry separate amplifier and terminal modules for each brand of antenna. Now, Winegard has just two, 75 ohm output coupling boards: A VHF only and a UHF/VHF, which has a VHF coupling F-71 port as well.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> using my ZoomBrowser software that came with my Canon digital camera to produce a web suitable image.



Pixresizer is another good, extremely simple freeware program to use.


Hi speed internet is nice, especially for watching something like hulu TV.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland

Winegard shows four models of cartridge housed baluns, one model is for older antennas. Info here . The connections from the terminal board to the phasing lines is just a friction fit and it is not “gas tight”. These cartridges are 1:1, 75Ω baluns. Do not connect 300Ω devices (4:1 baluns, 300Ω twin lead, etc.) to the phasing lines, you will have degraded performance. The output of the phasing line is 75Ω balanced.


----------



## cgulliver

Well I just picked up a 15-1634 from Radio Shack. Replaced a CM 3010. Overall, it's "ok". There is a good deal of bouncing on the signal meter but it rarely drops below 60% except on a few channels. But it does loose the lock on 30 and 69 which is unacceptable.


This looks like multipath interference since it bounces between 90% & 60%. I wonder if the Winegard or Channel Master omni's are any better? The Bottom line is I think we can do better and this bad boy will go back to Radio Shack when I find a replacement. We have quite a few trees around the house but are not sealed in. Alas, the antenna quest continues.


----------



## Digital Rules

It looks like that Radio Shack omni is amplified. You *cannot* use anything amplified with so many powerful signals at your location. I see that Winegard makes a non amplified omni, but I don't have any experience in recommending omni's.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=MS-1000


----------



## 300ohm

And that preamp that comes with it looks like the cheapie one RS sells. It has a very high noise factor.

It looks like you could use the unit without the the preamp at all. Give that a shot.


----------



## jdoppke

I have a HBU-22 antenna which is working pretty well except for when there's rough weather between me and the transmitters. Also have 2 stations that are in a different direction from the rest - WFUM and WADL - that are more prone to breakup (but still OK 80% of the time). I'm splitting the signal to a second TV which seems to have more issues. (and a 150' run) I'd also like to get CBET when (and if) Canada goes digital.


Can anyone recommend a preamp? tvfool is attached.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jdoppke* /forum/post/16596867
> 
> 
> i have a hbu-22 antenna which is working pretty well except for when there's rough weather between me and the transmitters. Also have 2 stations that are in a different direction from the rest - wfum and wadl - that are more prone to breakup (but still ok 80% of the time). I'm splitting the signal to a second tv which seems to have more issues. (and a 150' run) i'd also like to get cbet when (and if) canada goes digital.
> 
> 
> Can anyone recommend a preamp? Tvfool is attached.



hdp-269


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I second TGs recommendation.


----------



## Jim in Seattle

*holl_ands wrote:*

And musn't overlook the coat hanger....it's a classic...









Kerry Cozad measured a "4-leaf-clover" antenna pattern:
https://secure.connect.pbs.org/confe...ns/TC05_43.htm 


[Although I might try reworking the feed to improve the VSWR.....]

-------------------------------------------

Ha ha ha ha ... I needed a good laugh today!







Oddly, it probably works to some extent!


Jim in Seattle (catching up on prior posts here, starting from page 1)


----------



## cgulliver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16596571
> 
> 
> And that preamp that comes with it looks like the cheapie one RS sells. It has a very high noise factor.
> 
> It looks like you could use the unit without the the preamp at all. Give that a shot.



I was aware of the amplification issue as well with this antenna. When removing the preamp, I pretty much loose the signal completely. I too frowned at the quality of the pre-amp RS shipped with a $90 antenna. The key is that it can be returned without a mail campaign.


The setup is working though, I am getting in the 90's with everything but one station (CW) that is pegged at 69%. Reception is notably better than the CM3010. I really can't complain about the 15-1634.


I may order a non-amplified omni for sanity purposes but I am thinking this is about as good as it will get. The tricky thing with this business is knowing when to be content


----------



## holl_ands

Although steel has much lower conductivity than copper or aluminum, people have been

making antennas out of *Coat Hangers* since...the invention of the Coat Hanger???


It's not just a recent U-Tube infatuation. For example the fol. 1950's VHF antenna attached.

You can see patents (after FREE Registration) at www.freepatents.com


----------



## EscapeVelocity

cgulliver, also not that the RS 1634 antennas are 3 way directional, corresponding with the curves in the outer casing.....a little rotation might help.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

rabbt73, thanks for the book recommendation.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> For example the fol. 1950's VHF antenna attached.



Thats not bad at all, the dude put a reflector and a couple of directors on his coathanger, heh.


----------



## cgulliver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16601614
> 
> 
> cgulliver, also not that the RS 1634 antennas are 3 way directional, corresponding with the curves in the outer casing.....a little rotation might help.



Thanks, I did notice improvement after some rotation. The only issue now is that CBS is somehow going from 93% to zero every so often. I am hoping a turn or two will resolve this. The 1634 antenna looks like a re branded "AntennaCraft 5MS921" right?


If it doesn't work out, whats my next best option considering I need to hit multiple directions and don't want to put in a rotator. I have the CM3010 but it was worse than this one. I really like the aesthetics on this antenna though.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

"AntennaCraft 5MS921" right


I believe so.


The dropping out is probably from overload. You are going to have to find a nuanced spot to bring in the strong stations as well as the weaker stations.



You could probably use a 2 way omni directional config given your transmission directions. There is always the RS 1892 UFO....if a bit bothersome with repositioning the antenna via the remote (someone said they configured a univeral remote to operate the UFO).


I would suggest you try a Antennas Direct C1 Convertible. Channel 7 is on the edge at 45 miles with a CM7777 amplifier (flat land but I have tree problems). Its wide beamwidth and good performance unamped should/could work well for you.


The Philips MANT940 might be worth looking into, it offers some gain on VHF Hi (enough for some strong transmissions) and has a wide beamwidth and is bi directional.


Have you tried just a RE&Loop?


----------



## KNP 2516

Sorry to disagree, but I think that a Winegard AP 8275 would be a better choice.


----------



## MeowMeow

I need some advice about an antenna to deal with multipath.


I'm 40 mi from the two signals I want. I currently have a CM 4228 with a CM 7777 preamp and rotator. And the 4228 simply cannot clear out the multipath caused by the neighboring houses in the direction.


Previously, when I had the 4228 lower, there was a narrow sweet spot when I could tune them. Since I wen higher, it's been hell.


I'm almost 100% sure this is an issue that would best be handled with a narrow antenna like a 91XG. I want to try adding a second antenna (since the CM 7777 has the extra input for it). Since the 4228 will be aimed mostly SW at 240 degrees, and these two signals are SE at 140 degrees, I don't think it will be an issue.


Is 91XG overkill? Should I go with the 42XG? Or would anyone suggest a different antenna?


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MeowMeow* /forum/post/16610900
> 
> 
> Is 91XG overkill? Should I go with the 42XG? Or would anyone suggest a different antenna?



I'm not sure what you mean by overkill, but if you suspect multipath, the 91-XG is a better choice than the 4228. The 91-XG is also a 43-XG with the front section left off. I've tried the 4228, HD8800, & 91-XG in my extreme multipath area, and the 91-XG is the clear winner.


It sounds like you are planning to use both antennas with the 7777. You can only use separate UHF & VHF antennas, not 2 UHF antennas. The 4228 would still work for VHF if that is what you were intending to use it for.


----------



## cgulliver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16609132
> 
> 
> "AntennaCraft 5MS921" right
> 
> 
> Have you tried just a RE&Loop?



Thanks for the feedback. I have been tweaking the aiming on the RS 1634 and it has produced very good results. The only real issue seams to be an occasional audio dropout on 2.1 although it is pegged from 80-90% and the video doesn't appear to pixelate. 69.1 is a little weak but stays in the 65-70% range.


I have not tried an RE & Loop since my set is in the basement but suppose I could put one in the attic. There are a good deal of trees around also, so my hunch is that the amplifier may help on some of the signals.


I will probably check out a Philips MANT940 though.


----------



## MeowMeow




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/16611569
> 
> 
> It sounds like you are planning to use both antennas with the 7777. You can only use separate UHF & VHF antennas, not 2 UHF antennas. The 4228 would still work for VHF if that is what you were intending to use it for.



My 7777 has a switch that allows you to set both antennas to work as VHF/UHF, fundamentally making the preamp also a combiner. I don't know if it is the year it was made or what, but when I originally bought it and installed it at the old house (2006, I think), I was using it with two fixed VHF/UHF antennas, with one pointed SE (Altoona, PA), one pointed SW (Pittsburgh, PA). Worked fine.


When I moved to the new house (two Novembers ago) I was happy with the reception. I held off on using the second input, because none of our locals had gone VHF at the time I installed the 4228. Now that I know it does the VHF channels very well, I figure I might fix those last two stragglers with the multipath issue.


----------



## JamesF in NK

I have a question about how accurate one needs to be with regard to aiming an antenna. I live SW of Providence, RI. According to TV Fool and an accurate postion fix from Google Earth, the transmitters for the channels that I want to watch are coincidentally located in two primary compass directions. The Providence stations are mostly 038 degrees at an average of 23 miles from my home. The Boston stations are mostly located at 028 degrees at approx. 52 miles. I don't know how accurate one's aim needs to be. If I set the antenna at 033 degrees (half way in the middle), should I be able to get these two "sets" of channels? I know some trial and error is likely going to give me the answer. But, for starters, I need to know how accurate I need to be. I've been using cable for nearly 30 years. I forgot how to set up an OTA system.


----------



## systems2000

If your 23 mile transmitters are at least 100KW, you shouldn't have much trouble with reception. 10° isn't much for a wide-beam width antenna. I'd concentrate on the 52 mile stations.


----------



## mlmahon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/16611569
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by overkill, but if you suspect multipath, the 91-XG is a better choice than the 4228. The 91-XG is also a 43-XG with the front section left off. I've tried the 4228, HD8800, & 91-XG in my extreme multipath area, and the 91-XG is the clear winner.
> 
> 
> It sounds like you are planning to use both antennas with the 7777. You can only use separate UHF & VHF antennas, not 2 UHF antennas. The 4228 would still work for VHF if that is what you were intending to use it for.



Your info is correct except that the *43XG is a 91XG with the front section left off.*


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cgulliver* /forum/post/16612508
> 
> 
> Thanks for the feedback. I have been tweaking the aiming on the RS 1634 and it has produced very good results. The only real issue seams to be an occasional audio dropout on 2.1 although it is pegged from 80-90% and the video doesn't appear to pixelate. 69.1 is a little weak but stays in the 65-70% range.
> 
> 
> I have not tried an RE & Loop since my set is in the basement but suppose I could put one in the attic. There are a good deal of trees around also, so my hunch is that the amplifier may help on some of the signals.
> 
> 
> I will probably check out a Philips MANT940 though.



You might consider the Philips MANT950 as well. Im not positive, but I think the UHF section is bi directional, the VHF section is definitely.


Also Ive been testing the AntennasDirect ClearStream1 Convertible, and its been doing very well, and I think it also would be a strong contender for you. However, maybe the reduced gain of the RS 1634 is actually beneficial for your situation with the strong signals overloading.


Note both the MANT940 and MANT950 have integrated amplifiers. The AD C1C does not.


One more thing.....if you try the MANT940, mount it in the "sideways" position with the wedge facing upwards.


----------



## cgulliver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16618080
> 
> 
> 
> One more thing.....if you try the MANT940, mount it in the "sideways" position with the wedge facing upwards.



Are we certain the MANT940 picks up VHF as well? I was in Wal Mart yesterday but did not purchase it since it states UHF only on the box.


I removed the amp from the 1634 and it was a no-go. There are trees all the way around my house so the amp may be ok. Aside from an occasional audio dropout on ABC, the 1634 is the winner so far. I am afraid that this one will suffer from intermittent issues related to multipathing though. But I havent ruled out these issues being caused by overloading.


Also, are the RCA ANT751 or the CM3016 good choices for me? I was not sure since the towers are all around me (see below). I tested out the CM 3010 last night again and it didn't work out. I don't want to put in a rotator.


----------



## a_mitian

Hey everyone, i am a newbie to OTA and antennas. I just got my first antenna, "Antennas Direct DB2", i hooked it up and got most of the channels but not getting any VHF channels(they are scrambled). I know DB2 is a UHF antenna but can i also get VHF channels?

Can i use another VHF antenna and use both of these antennas to get both UHF and VHF signals. Please help me out


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *a_mitian* /forum/post/16619689
> 
> 
> Hey everyone, i am a newbie to OTA and antennas. I just got my first antenna, "Antennas Direct DB2", i hooked it up and got most of the channels but not getting any VHF channels(they are scrambled). I know DB2 is a UHF antenna but can i also get VHF channels?
> 
> Can i use another VHF antenna and use both of these antennas to get both UHF and VHF signals. Please help me out



As you can see in the link provided below, a DB2 is useless for VHF:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


I don't know what you mean by "scrambled." That's usually a term used in cable systems for signals you haven't paid for or subscribed to. Do you mean they are stuttering and pixelating? Is this digital, I assume?


You'll need something else for VHF in any event. We'd need more details about your situation (zip code, distance from the towers, TV Fool output, that kind of thing) in order to be of more help.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Walmart will let you return the antenna if it doesnt work out. The MANT940 isnt a VHF antenna, however it does offer some negative gain on VHF Hi which is good enough for some strong channels.


I think you can do better than the RCA ANT751, CM 3016 for your particular situation.


----------



## a_mitian




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ziggy29* /forum/post/16619835
> 
> 
> As you can see in the link provided below, a DB2 is useless for VHF:
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
> 
> 
> I don't know what you mean by "scrambled." That's usually a term used in cable systems for signals you haven't paid for or subscribed to. Do you mean they are stuttering and pixelating? Is this digital, I assume?
> 
> 
> You'll need something else for VHF in any event. We'd need more details about your situation (zip code, distance from the towers, TV Fool output, that kind of thing) in order to be of more help.



I am not getting any Digital VHF channel, the scrambling I refer to is the the fuzziness in the analog VHF channels I am getting.

I live in Sunnyvale, zip-94089 and I am located 50 miles away from the towers(towers are in San Francisco). I am getting all UHF channels pretty clear in HD. I have got HDTV with Digital Tuner and I have my antenna setup in my balcony (2nd floor of a 3 floor building).

I hope this information will help, please suggest a way to get VHF channels too


----------



## rabbit73

Your tvfool report for zip 94089 is at this link:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...c53474effbc2c6 


If you go to tvfool.com and enter your exact address the results will be more accurate. Give us the URL near the top of the page in bold type as I have done; your address will not show in the report. I don't think you have much analog to worry about on friday---that's when the transition to digital happens.


For VHF you will need a VHF antenna. It can be combined with your UHF antenna with a UHF/VHF combiner called a UVSJ.


You have NBC on VHF ch 12, and ABC on 7. What channels do you want?


Update: I think he went to the local reception thread for San Francisco.


----------



## jdoppke




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *KNP 2516* /forum/post/16610162
> 
> 
> Sorry to disagree, but I think that a Winegard AP 8275 would be a better choice.



Now I'm really confused. I was looking at the AP8700 vs the AP8275, but I wasnt sure if the 8275 was too much. The HDP-269 is even lower gain than the 8700. Is the HDP somehow better than the AP line?


----------



## Digital Rules

The 8275 is too much pre-amp for you. It is too susceptible to overload, and you don't need a high gain deep fringe amp. The 8700 is much less susceptible to overload, but you don't that much gain either if you already get decent reception most of the time. The HDP-269 with 12db of gain is more than enough gain for 2 TV's, and nearly impossible to overload.


I installed the 8275 at the location below last weekend, and it works great with a small Winegard Ghost Killer antenna. I wouldn't use the 8275 with signal strengths higher than these.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...c5347d02d523de


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> please suggest a way to get VHF channels too



You could try replacing the DB2 reflector with one that is 32 to 44 inches wide. 2 X 4 mesh or smaller should be used. That works for getting some vhf-hi gain on a 4 bay bowtie and should on a 2 bay one too, with a little less gain. But some is better than none.


Hmm, because of the way the present DB2 reflector is made, a quick test would be to inter-weave two 36 inch long metal rods horizontally behind each of the bowties. Tearing up old rabbit ears would give you tunable rods, heh.


----------



## andytiedye

7 is still on UHF until some time tomorrow.


11 (RF 12) is the only VHF on right now.


----------



## 100/40

I have a DB2 and get VHF channel 11 (dt) with no problem. The TX is about 35 to 40 miles away.


----------



## nicoge21

People on the walmart website said that MANT940 works for VHF high as long as the signals are fairly strong.


At this point in time I wouldn't even bother trying to get analog channels, they'll be blank tomorrow


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> they'll be blank tomorrow



From what I gather, different stations cut over at different times during the day. Looks like Saturday morning for a full scan, heh.


----------



## cgulliver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nicoge21* /forum/post/16628832
> 
> 
> People on the walmart website said that MANT940 works for VHF high as long as the signals are fairly strong.
> 
> 
> At this point in time I wouldn't even bother trying to get analog channels, they'll be blank tomorrow



Ok, I installed the MANT940 and could not get a lock on anything. 0% across the board. Doesn't make sense. I even confirmed everything was properly hooked up and tried several positions. Maybe the unit was DOA... shrug. I may try it on another set I have upstairs just to confirm.


Anyways, the good news is I have been tweaking the aiming of the RS 1634 and it has done wonders for my reception. I've reached a point where it is working well enough not to screw with it. All the big networks are 90%+ and I get at least 70% on everything else. I will cross my fingers and rescan this afternoon.


Thanks for all the support


----------



## ngarrang

I continue to be happy with my cheapy Terrestrial Digital DB2 antenna. It worked much better than any of my home-made antennae (DB1's, DB2's, DB4's, loops, a hoverman, etc). I did a re-scan of the channels this morning and gained 2 more digital stations. I am now up to 30 total. I am missing out on a few digital stations out of Dayton, but the antenna isn't pointed that way in the first place.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nicoge21* /forum/post/16628832
> 
> 
> People on the walmart website said that MANT940 works for VHF high as long as the signals are fairly strong.
> 
> 
> At this point in time I wouldn't even bother trying to get analog channels, they'll be blank tomorrow



If your signals are strong enough, a paper clip will get the UHF and VHF signals.


A UHF antenna will receive the VHF signals, but at a much lower efficiency level. As long as the final signal product is strong enough, the antenna "works" for the consumer regardless of whether it's the "right" one.


----------



## holl_ands

Dennis Wallace of MSW (Meintel, Sgrignoli, & Wallace) measured the Gain

of several passive and active (amplified) antennas, as briefly summarized here:
http://www.walb.com/Global/story.asp?S=8346127 

[BTW: MSW principals were very instrumental in original ATSC development & test.]


Philips MANT940 had 17.1 dB less Active Gain on Ch7 as the Terk TV25:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...om=Large#xview 

and 6.2 dB less Active Gain on Ch7 as Rabbit Ears on RCA ANT585:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...om=Large#xview 


Subtracting respective Preamp Gains reveals fol. actual ANTENNA Ch7 Gains:

- 8.1 dBd RCA ANT585 (VHF Rabbit Ears + UHF Loop)

-13.7 dBd Philips MAN940 (Small Indoor/Outdoor Blade)

-19.3 dBd W-G SS2000 (SquareShooter--Big Outdoor Panel)

+ 2.8 dBd Terk TV25 (TV Hugger Bowtie)

-12.4 dBd W-G SS3000 SharpShooter "ScatterPlane" (aka Terk HDTVLP)


Compare to Passive Antenna Ch7 Gains:

- 5.2 dBd RCA ANT115 (VHF Rabbit Ears + UHF Loop)

-25.0 dBd Philips Silver Sensor (Small Indoor Log Periodic)

-20.4 dBd W-G SS1000 (SquareShooter--big outdoor panel)

-14.1 dBd A-D DB-2 (2-Bay Bowtie w Reflector)

-18.2 dBd Terr Digital 303F (I have no clue what this is.....)


For Ch7, the clear winner was the Terk TV25, followed by the VHF Rabbit Ears....

All of the other antennas had high to extremely high loss on Ch7.....

The worst of the bunch on Ch7 was the Winegard SquareShooter....


Of course, results may be somewhat different on Ch8-13....


And remember to add 2.15 dB to convert dBd to dBi.


----------



## holl_ands

While everyone's interest is focused on Hi-VHF Antenna performance, here's the link to

mclapp's on-air VHF/UHF measurements comparing R-S VU-90 Combo and (old) CM-4221 4-Bay

to several of his Super-Sized 4-Bay and 8-Bay antenna designs:
http://www.frontiernet.net/~mclapp/Antennas/plots/ 


Below I attached Kerry Cozad's (Dielectric Antennas) model range results for Silver Sensor,

Terk HDTVi, RCA ANT3023 Combo, Rabbit Ears/Loop, CM4228 (old 8-Bay) and W-G PR-8800 (old 8-Bay).


Last year, Bob Chase (Houston Station Engineer) posted an on-air comparison of 8 antennas.

I took his spectrum analyzer signal level readings and prepared a VHF comparison chart.


Note how well the (old) CM4228 performed on Hi-VHF channels, except for dip across Ch7-8 boundary.

Unfortunately, the latest 8-Bay antennas need some modifications:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html 

Additional NEC simulation model comparisons:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/comparing.html 

[PS: Always take NEC sim results with a grain of salt....gain notches had minimal effect wrt on-air tests.]


----------



## holl_ands

On-Air test comparisons from mclapp:


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16548801
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...249df9ae5658b0
> 
> http://www.antennasdirect.com/C4-Cle...V-antenna.html
> 
> 
> Channel Master 7777
> 
> 
> Ok...
> 
> 
> You have my location (TVfool) my antenna (C4) and my Pre-amp (7777).
> 
> 
> I get all my Digitial stations from Los Angeles fine currently. I guess my main concern is when they switch from UHF to VHF for channel 7, 9, 11 and 13. Will my setup be good for this?
> 
> 
> I live in an apartment (with a balcony facing the correct direction for the towers). I thought this antenna would be good for High VHF but I have been reading that it might not be. I am getting really good signals on my UHF digital stations (much better then with my Squareshooter 1000).
> 
> 
> I am about 60 miles away from the towers in the Valley.
> 
> 
> Thanks.



Alright, just as you guys predicted, I lost my High VHF channels (7, 9, 11, 13) with the DTV switch. I get great UHF and was getting these channels when they were UHF. Do you think that Antennasdirect C5 along with the C4 running into my 7777 will get me 7 and 11 (I really don't need 9 or 13 but if I get it that would be a fine). I get 0 signal on the High VHF channels with the C4.


----------



## rec630

Is it possible to replace a rotor control unit without needing to replace the rotor itself on the antenna?


I got my parents set up for the DTV conversion with a CECB and things seemed good. Later went to do a little fine tuning and when adjusting the antenna, the control unit started making a grinding noise and the antenna did not stop at the desired setting. I reversed the direction and pulled the plug when the antenna got mostly pointed correctly. It's an old (maybe 20+ years) rotor control unit and I suspect some of the plastic gears inside might have cracked or finally worn out. When asking around my dad was told that the control unit inside the house and the drive unit on the antenna would need to be replaced together as a unit.


True or not?


I don't remember the rotor control brand but it wasn't something familiar so finding the same brand may not be possible. Otherwise I believe it's a Winegard antenna solely based based on the (W) I can see on it and a CM amp.


Thanks


----------



## bmcent1

Hello All -

I want to put up a VHF-Hi and UHF antenna now that the transition is complete (Channels 7, 9, and 11 went back to VHF-Hi in my area (DC-Balt).


This is a general question about antennas and masts...


When the OTARD rule says HOA may not limit erection of an antenna, and that local codes may limit to 12' above roof does that mean:


- 12' is the highest tip of the antenna or can the antenna be a foot or two higher if it installs on top of a 12' mast?


- Does the chimney come into play for the height above roof? My chimney is higher than the peak of the roof. I'm down a hill, so every foot of height helps. However, I also have to be by the book because I am already sure this is going to raise the ire of the HOA.


- Diagrams I've seen show the antenna at the side of the house, I'm guessing that helps with multipath reflections off the asphalt shingles? Is the side the preferred location or, if you get better signal somewhere along the peak of the roof, is there a mast that bolts to the roof away from the edges?


Thanks for any help!


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16642017
> 
> 
> Alright, just as you guys predicted, I lost my High VHF channels (7, 9, 11, 13) with the DTV switch. I get great UHF and was getting these channels when they were UHF. Do you think that Antennasdirect C5 along with the C4 running into my 7777 will get me 7 and 11 (I really don't need 9 or 13 but if I get it that would be a fine). I get 0 signal on the High VHF channels with the C4.




You're a bit far for the C4's limited H-VHF capability. That usually maxes out around 40-50 miles with good LOS and adequate signal power. Since you're missing LOS and are at around 55-60 miles, you will definitely need a dedicated H-VHF antenna.


The C5 might be enough, certainly worth a try, especially since it's very compact but of similar performance to a 5-element Yagi. A little birdie told me a small quantity may be shipped by a really big birdie in the next day or so, maybe those will be made available for purchase.


BTW, how is the C4 doing with the UHF signals coming from Mt Wilson to your location?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bmcent1* /forum/post/16642330
> 
> 
> Hello All -
> 
> I want to put up a VHF-Hi and UHF antenna now that the transition is complete (Channels 7, 9, and 11 went back to VHF-Hi in my area (DC-Balt).
> 
> 
> This is a general question about antennas and masts...
> 
> 
> When the OTARD rule says HOA may not limit erection of an antenna, and that local codes may limit to 12' above roof does that mean:
> 
> 
> - 12' is the highest tip of the antenna or can the antenna be a foot or two higher if it installs on top of a 12' mast?
> 
> 
> - Does the chimney come into play for the height above roof? My chimney is higher than the peak of the roof. I'm down a hill, so every foot of height helps. However, I also have to be by the book because I am already sure this is going to raise the ire of the HOA.
> 
> 
> - Diagrams I've seen show the antenna at the side of the house, I'm guessing that helps with multipath reflections off the asphalt shingles? Is the side the preferred location or, if you get better signal somewhere along the peak of the roof, is there a mast that bolts to the roof away from the edges?
> 
> 
> Thanks for any help!



The FCC rule says that "Masts higher than 12 feet above the roofline may be subject to local permitting requirements.". This would be a matter of your local building or code enforcement office, not an HOA. Check with your local AHJ (if any) to see if such a permitting requirement exists in your city or county.


If there is no such local restriction, your other question regarding the chimney is moot.


The preferred location is the one where you can get a good quality signal with the minimum amount of difficulties.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16642463
> 
> 
> You're a bit far for the C4's limited H-VHF capability. That usually maxes out around 40-50 miles with good LOS and adequate signal power. Since you're missing LOS and are at around 55-60 miles, you will definitely need a dedicated H-VHF antenna.
> 
> 
> The C5 might be enough, certainly worth a try, especially since it's very compact but of similar performance to a 5-element Yagi. A little birdie told me a small quantity may be shipped by a really big birdie in the next day or so, maybe those will be made available for purchase.
> 
> 
> BTW, how is the C4 doing with the UHF signals coming from Mt Wilson to your location?



The C4 is doing great with the UHF. I get all the UHF channels at 80+ percent (I think my TV needs above 35 for a picture). With my Squareshooter 1000, I was around 65+. I will try the C5.


----------



## SequatchieViewer

Channel Master CM 3671


Has anyone used this or know how reliable it is? Have never used Channel Master before and thinking of ordering this antenna.


We are trying to get the ones in in red located to the NW in Nashville some 70+ miles away.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SequatchieViewer* /forum/post/16643198
> 
> 
> Channel Master CM 3671
> 
> 
> Has anyone used this or know how reliable it is? Have never used Channel Master before and thinking of ordering this antenna.



The Winegard HD8200P is a better antenna, especially for UHF. If you don't need VHF-LO, the HD7698P is the equivalent channel 7-69 antenna. It is much smaller and lighter than the 8200.


Both antennas are very well constructed.


----------



## DEEPFRINGEGUY




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rec630* /forum/post/16642052
> 
> 
> Is it possible to replace a rotor control unit without needing to replace the rotor itself on the antenna?
> 
> 
> I got my parents set up for the DTV conversion with a CECB and things seemed good. Later went to do a little fine tuning and when adjusting the antenna, the control unit started making a grinding noise and the antenna did not stop at the desired setting. I reversed the direction and pulled the plug when the antenna got mostly pointed correctly. It's an old (maybe 20+ years) rotor control unit and I suspect some of the plastic gears inside might have cracked or finally worn out. When asking around my dad was told that the control unit inside the house and the drive unit on the antenna would need to be replaced together as a unit.
> 
> 
> True or not?
> 
> 
> I don't remember the rotor control brand but it wasn't something familiar so finding the same brand may not be possible. Otherwise I believe it's a Winegard antenna solely based based on the (W) I can see on it and a CM amp.
> 
> 
> Thanks



The Channel Master's are independent. I replaced my motor unit and kept my infra-red remote-controlled CM controller.


In your case, it's hard to tell if your rotor and controller are independent. You really need to find out what brand and model you have.


----------



## dewster1977




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rec630* /forum/post/16642052
> 
> 
> Is it possible to replace a rotor control unit without needing to replace the rotor itself on the antenna?
> 
> 
> I got my parents set up for the DTV conversion with a CECB and things seemed good. Later went to do a little fine tuning and when adjusting the antenna, the control unit started making a grinding noise and the antenna did not stop at the desired setting. I reversed the direction and pulled the plug when the antenna got mostly pointed correctly. It's an old (maybe 20+ years) rotor control unit and I suspect some of the plastic gears inside might have cracked or finally worn out. When asking around my dad was told that the control unit inside the house and the drive unit on the antenna would need to be replaced together as a unit.
> 
> 
> True or not?
> 
> 
> I don't remember the rotor control brand but it wasn't something familiar so finding the same brand may not be possible. Otherwise I believe it's a Winegard antenna solely based based on the (W) I can see on it and a CM amp.
> 
> 
> Thanks



Can you post a picture of the rotor or control, might be able to tell from that. I have some old catalogs for several different rotors.


----------



## Davird_Jr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/16643413
> 
> 
> The Winegard HD8200P is a better antenna, especially for UHF. If you don't need VHF-LO, the HD7698P is the equivalent channel 7-69 antenna. It is much smaller and lighter than the 8200.
> 
> 
> Both antennas are very well constructed.



I have the 8200 and have been very happy with its quality and performance. I however am not quite as far out as SequatchieViewer.


----------



## oldsyd




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16187398
> 
> 
> I'd like to offer you two suggestions you can try that may improve your reception.
> 
> 
> 1. To maintain the symmetry of your antenna, wrap electrical tape around the board every 6" or so.
> 
> 2. Use screw terminals (wood screws and washers) at the feed point to maintain a 1" gap and attach a high quality balun ( Channel Master 0089 ) there.



I finally got around to taking some pics of the updated version of my channel 7 folded dipole. Here it is:

 
 


With the end loops soldered I was able to make the copper taut upon tightening the screws, and I added a high quality balun that feeds RG-6 coax. Much prettier now and still works great for pulling in VHF-HI channels 7 (cut for that channel) and 9. Also works with channel 12 on a CECB, but some signal loss on signal meter.


----------



## rec630




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dewster1977* /forum/post/16645878
> 
> 
> Can you post a picture of the rotor or control, might be able to tell from that. I have some old catalogs for several different rotors.



Thanks for the offer. I can't do anything till I get a chance to get back to my parents house. I walked them through rescans & configuration over the phone this weekend and they seem to be getting most of the channels post conversion so it's not as critical as I had anticipated.


----------



## hphase

I have two markets that are almost 180 deg apart in heading. I'd like to put two CM4221s (or CM4228s) back-to-back on the same mast. Will one antenna affect the performance of the other? I will NOT be combining the downleads; each will be separately delivered to an A-B switch. I remember there being something called a "capture area" that recommended antennas be separated vertically on the same mast, but I don't recall the details.


Can any of you real antenna experts comment?


Thanks.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16634229
> 
> 
> While everyone's interest is focused on Hi-VHF Antenna performance, here's the link to
> 
> mclapp's on-air VHF/UHF measurements comparing R-S VU-90 Combo and (old) CM-4221 4-Bay
> 
> to several of his Super-Sized 4-Bay and 8-Bay antenna designs:
> http://www.frontiernet.net/~mclapp/Antennas/plots/
> 
> 
> Below I attached Kerry Cozad's (Dielectric Antennas) model range results for Silver Sensor,
> 
> Terk HDTVi, RCA ANT3023 Combo, Rabbit Ears/Loop, CM4228 (old 8-Bay) and W-G PR-8800 (old 8-Bay).
> 
> 
> Last year, Bob Chase (Houston Station Engineer) posted an on-air comparison of 8 antennas.
> 
> I took his spectrum analyzer signal level readings and prepared a VHF comparison chart.
> 
> 
> Note how well the (old) CM4228 performed on Hi-VHF channels, except for dip across Ch7-8 boundary.
> 
> Unfortunately, the latest 8-Bay antennas need some modifications:
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html
> 
> Additional NEC simulation model comparisons:
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/comparing.html
> 
> [PS: Always take NEC sim results with a grain of salt....gain notches had minimal effect wrt on-air tests.]


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hphase* /forum/post/16648224
> 
> 
> I have two markets that are almost 180 deg apart in heading. I'd like to put two CM4221s back-to-back on the same mast.
> 
> 
> Can any of you real antenna experts comment?



Many in your situation buy a 4221 and simply remove the reflector screen.


----------



## jafi1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/16624036
> 
> 
> The 8275 is too much pre-amp for you. It is too susceptible to overload, and you don't need a high gain deep fringe amp. The 8700 is much less susceptible to overload, but you don't that much gain either if you already get decent reception most of the time. The HDP-269 with 12db of gain is more than enough gain for 2 TV's, and nearly impossible to overload.
> 
> 
> I installed the 8275 at the location below last weekend, and it works great with a small Winegard Ghost Killer antenna. I wouldn't use the 8275 with signal strengths higher than these.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...c5347d02d523de



Based on what you're saying it sounds like HDP-269 would work for me as well.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...c534a39f416434 

Note: Since I live in Boulder the Rocky Mountains are practically in the front yard and the curve of the mountains keeps me from having a true line of sight to Lookout Mountain where most of the Denver area tv transmitters are located, i.e. there's a very big rock between Boulder and Golden.


The only channels I'm concerned about receiving are

2.1, 4.1, 6.1, 7.1, 9.1, 12.1, 20.1, 31.1, - 59.1 and 38.1 occasionally run movies or programs of interest. I receive a number of others but remove them from the channel lineup. 12.1 I may not be able to get till mid to late this year when they finish their translator/retransmit construction for north Denver metro. 6.1 I get from a translator mounted on the residence halls at CU about 2 miles away.




My signal reception for the channels I receive is measuring from the high 60's to the mid 80's on my DTVPal. Middling to the lower edge of good on the DTT901. So some signal boost all around wouldn't go amiss.


I am experiencing occasional weather related dropouts on the channels. I can see some signal for 2.1, 31.1 and 12.1 on the DTT901 but not enough to get a picture (not even a choppy pixelated freeze up). The setup came with the house and is bit funky. Roof mounted antenna, outdoor transformer (300 to 75 ohm) to attach antenna to 30 feet or so of coax that runs into the floor level of the house (1 level ranch). A second flat cable is attached to the antenna that runs to the basement. My thought was to install the pre amp, then a splitter (with a voltage block on the basement cable) at the antenna, with the power injector on the main floor before the distribution amp (maybe that the distribution amp gets replaced with a 4way splitter after this).




So if I understand this page right I'd lose 3.7db on the splitter, ~1.5db on the coax, and what about .5db on the outdoor transformer?

5.7 DB so a pre amp in the 10-15 db range would do. Voila - the HDP-269.


Do any of the national chain type stores sell the 269 in their physical stores? Radio Shack seems to only offer the 8700 online and the 269 not at all. I'd like to buy one that I could return without shipping it, if needed.


----------



## hphase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16649341
> 
> 
> Many in your situation but a 4221 and simply remove the reflector screen.



That would result in an omnidirectional antenna, but just like before the transition, I would be left with co-channel problems. In the old case, the co-channel problems were NTSC into DTV, and in the UHF band. The analogs kept me from receiving the digitals. Now the co-channel is DTV into DTV, and this time in the VHF band. I don't want to have a problem with co-channel this time. If I have to, I'll pick one DMA and lose the other.


----------



## ngarrang

Unless you use an A-B switch, it is not as easy as using a splitter/combiner in your situation, most likely.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Boy there are some cool looking antennas here.











I like the corner reflector with the bowtie. Ive seen one in an old Radio Shack catalogue from the 80s.


----------



## ngarrang

Neat, a Rhombic. And a small one at that.


----------



## tqol

Hi all. I've been reading the forums for about a year, but still, most of this is over my head.

Rabbit ears weren't getting the job done (weak signals, constant adjustment), and just picked up an Antennas Direct C2 @ Best Buy (which will be going back - $30 overpriced.)


The C2 solves the immediate issue, but is there something better, or cheaper for the job?

I'm not trying to pull in any long range signals.

I'd prefer to stay away from a Yagi, but if that's the best, let me know.


Mounting height was planned to be 16', but could go as high as 24' (multi-level house).

I know higher is better, but I've got a metal chimney and evaporative cooler on the high roof.


And I'd like to drop it to 4 locations, so a recommendation on a pre-amp or not would be great.


My TV Fool Plot - /?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d663d943b85fe8f


(1st post, so can't paste URLs yet.)


Any suggestions are appreciated, and thanks for the feedback!


----------



## Ken H




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tqol* /forum/post/16650535
> 
> 
> Hi all. I've been reading the forums for about a year, but still, most of this is over my head.
> 
> Rabbit ears weren't getting the job done (weak signals, constant adjustment), and just picked up an Antennas Direct C2 @ Best Buy (which will be going back - $30 overpriced.)
> 
> 
> The C2 solves the immediate issue, but is there something better, or cheaper for the job?


 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798265


----------



## hphase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ngarrang* /forum/post/16650045
> 
> 
> Unless you use an A-B switch, it is not as easy as using a splitter/combiner in your situation, most likely.



I'm not planning on using a splitter or combiner. My question was about any interaction between antennas placed back-to-back on the same mast.


----------



## tqol

Ken H,

Thanks, I was actually thinking about making one, but it needs to be an outdoor antenna. All my attic space is either finished or cathedral ceilings.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hphase* /forum/post/16648224
> 
> 
> I have two markets that are almost 180 deg apart in heading. I'd like to put two CM4221s (or CM4228s) back-to-back on the same mast. Will one antenna affect the performance of the other? I will NOT be combining the downleads; each will be separately delivered to an A-B switch. I remember there being something called a "capture area" that recommended antennas be separated vertically on the same mast, but I don't recall the details.



I think that it is unlikely that they will interfere with each other if the reflector screens are left on and they are back-to-back. When I aim my 4221 I am behind it with my signal level meter (SLM) and I don't notice any change from the presence of my body like happens when I'm in front of it. You could always space them vertically later so that they just clear each other if there is a problem. Keep the coax behind the reflector screens after bringing it straight back thru the screen from the feed point.


Some hams use just *one* reflector screen with an antenna on each side with an A-B switch to change direction 180 degrees rapidly. The closer the vertical spacing of the horizontal wires, the better the isolation and the greater the front-to-back ratio (for a horiz. polarized antenna). The rule of thumb is that the spacing should not be greater than 0.1 wavelength, which would be 1181 divided by the frequency in MHz with the answer in inches. Example for CH 15: 1181 divided by 476 = 2.3 inches. The 1181 is derived from two times the free-space halfwave length (5905) in inches divided by 10.


The capture area is taken into consideration when you are stacking two yagis one-above-the-other that are pointing in the same direction and are phased together for more gain than one yagi. For maximum gain they are spaced so that the capture area of one just touches the capture area of the other; not easy to calculate.


----------



## willscary

I am now considering a Blonder Tongue BTY-10-U(A) yagi for channel 16. How does this antenna actually compare to other UHF antennas at channel 16. Will it actually give 10dBm net gain at channel 16? Will it do better (as in...will it have better gain at 16 than at 14 and 19, to perhaps 11dBm?


I can find no rally good info on the performance of this antenna.


Any help would be appreciated. I currently use a 91XG and a large Antennacraft MXU59 for UHF (different directions) but I am looking at the BT specifically for channel 16 in another direction. Will this be as good as these antennas at this frequency, or will it be better or worse?


Bill


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tqol* /forum/post/16650535
> 
> 
> Hi all. I've been reading the forums for about a year, but still, most of this is over my head.
> 
> Rabbit ears weren't getting the job done (weak signals, constant adjustment), and just picked up an Antennas Direct C2 @ Best Buy (which will be going back - $30 overpriced.)
> 
> 
> The C2 solves the immediate issue, but is there something better, or cheaper for the job?
> 
> I'm not trying to pull in any long range signals.
> 
> I'd prefer to stay away from a Yagi, but if that's the best, let me know.
> 
> 
> Mounting height was planned to be 16', but could go as high as 24' (multi-level house).
> 
> I know higher is better, but I've got a metal chimney and evaporative cooler on the high roof.
> 
> 
> And I'd like to drop it to 4 locations, so a recommendation on a pre-amp or not would be great.
> 
> 
> My TV Fool Plot - /?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d663d943b85fe8f
> 
> 
> (1st post, so can't paste URLs yet.)
> 
> 
> Any suggestions are appreciated, and thanks for the feedback!



Welcome to the forum.


I can't get that url to work even after adding the front part. Please double check it or do a few more posts so that you will be able to post a hot link. For now maybe you could just give us the zip. (Sometimes the tvfool server is overloaded and the link can't be made.)


----------



## blackadidashat

I thought I was ready for the analog-digital switch. I didn't realize some of the stations were going to switch from uhf to vhf. I've been watching the digital uhf just fine for years. Why would they do that? Now I need another antenna. It looks like the CM 7777 will be a good way to go for separate vhf/uhf with preamp. Any recommendations for a vhf antenna?


----------



## tqol

Thanks, rabbit.

Sorry all for the dummy post here...


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Boy there are some cool looking antennas here.



I cant figure out the one directly under the helix antenna, or is it just a mast ?


----------



## tqol




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/16651819
> 
> 
> Welcome to the forum.
> 
> 
> I can't get that url to work even after adding the front part. Please double check it or do a few more posts so that you will be able to post a hot link. For now maybe you could just give us the zip. (Sometimes the tvfool server is overloaded and the link can't be made.)



Thanks, rabbit.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...663d943b85fe8f


----------



## willscary

If you only need VHF-hi (channels 7-13) then I recommend a Winegard YA-1713.


Bill


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> but is there something better, or cheaper for the job?
> 
> I'm not trying to pull in any long range signals.
> 
> I'd prefer to stay away from a Yagi, but if that's the best, let me know.



If youre looking for inexpensive, the Antennacraft HBU22 for $30 will do your strong signals, uhf and vhf-hi. You may even be just fine with the Antennacraft AC9 for $18. Antennacraft makes (or did make) the Radio Shack antennas, so good or bad, that gives you an idea of the quality.


Hmm, when you say local stations, you dont mean those super weak channels 1.1 miles from you ? They must be transmitting on D cells, heh.


----------



## SemiChemE




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hphase* /forum/post/16649995
> 
> 
> That would result in an omnidirectional antenna, but just like before the transition, I would be left with co-channel problems. In the old case, the co-channel problems were NTSC into DTV, and in the UHF band. The analogs kept me from receiving the digitals. Now the co-channel is DTV into DTV, and this time in the VHF band. I don't want to have a problem with co-channel this time. If I have to, I'll pick one DMA and lose the other.



My initial response was that two 4221's facing away from each other should not interfere. I believe this is true for UHF, but I'm not so sure that's true for VHF when using the 4221. The 4221 is a UHF antenna. Any VHF signal get's picked up by the reflector, rather than the bow-tie elements, so it's possible that the reflectors could interfere with each other if placed so closely. Perhaps some of the "experts" can comment.


----------



## tqol




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16652194
> 
> 
> If youre looking for inexpensive, the Antennacraft HBU22 for $30 will do your strong signals, uhf and vhf-hi. You may even be just fine with the Antennacraft AC9 for $18. Antennacraft makes (or did make) the Radio Shack antennas, so good or bad, that gives you an idea of the quality.
> 
> 
> Hmm, when you say local stations, you dont mean those super weak channels 1.1 miles from you ? They must be transmitting on D cells, heh.



No, no, no...









In Colorado Springs, all the towers are on Cheyenne Mountain. I'm adjacent to an area that is blocked by another mountain, and they have had local LP translators for years. That's what that super weak channels are for (and of no interest to me).


You would think being only 8 miles away, I wouldn't have issues. But I must be right on the edge.


Thanks for the suggestions.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> and they have had local LP translators for years.



When I saw that on your TVFool, I knew it had to be a very unusual situation, heh.


----------



## alphanguy

I'm getting ready to make a custom cut yagi for channel 17. I am using k7mem's design page, and I am wondering a few things:


1: Is it ok if I use 1/8 inch rod for the driven element? I say this because I thought 1/8 inch would be easier to bend than 1/4.


2: what metal should I use for the driven element? I know most antenna parts are aluminum, but since it has to be bent... wouldn't copper be more flexible?


3: How does one attatch the balun to the driven element? Solder it?


4: when the design page gives me element spacing, I'm assuming that measurement is center to center?


5: what's the best thing to use to attatch the elements to the boom? Small brass screws? (I'm using hollow 3/8 aluminum element form old antenna)


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16652143
> 
> 
> I cant figure out the one directly under the helix antenna, or is it just a mast ?



I dont know, but how do those helix work? Do you "aim them like a bazooka?" The Terk TV-55 is like that then. I just saw a vintage table top helix that went for $30 plus shipping on ebay.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I dont know, but how do those helix work? Do you "aim them like a bazooka?"



Yeah, and from most of the helix antenna models Ive seen, most people seem to use them backwards, heh. (in other words, the feedpoint is the front of the antenna) They also generally dont have a wide bandwidth.


The picture you have above is not a true helix antenna. More like a folded dipole with a spiral top.


----------



## jccsup




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alphanguy* /forum/post/16654517
> 
> 
> I'm getting ready to make a custom cut yagi for channel 17. I am using k7mem's design page, and I am wondering a few things:
> 
> 
> 1: Is it ok if I use 1/8 inch rod for the driven element? I say this because I thought 1/8 inch would be easier to bend than 1/4.
> 
> 
> 2: what metal should I use for the driven element? I know most antenna parts are aluminum, but since it has to be bent... wouldn't copper be more flexible?
> 
> 
> 3: How does one attatch the balun to the driven element? Solder it?
> 
> 
> 4: when the design page gives me element spacing, I'm assuming that measurement is center to center?
> 
> 
> 5: what's the best thing to use to attatch the elements to the boom? Small brass screws? (I'm using hollow 3/8 aluminum element form old antenna)



What is the URL for k7mem's design page?


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jccsup* /forum/post/16654912
> 
> 
> What is the URL for k7mem's design page?


 http://www.k7mem.com/ 


you can find the antenna area in the menu to the left, there you can go to a number of areas within that


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alphanguy* /forum/post/16654517
> 
> 
> I'm getting ready to make a custom cut yagi for channel 17. I am using k7mem's design page, and I am wondering a few things:
> 
> 
> 1: Is it ok if I use 1/8 inch rod for the driven element? I say this because I thought 1/8 inch would be easier to bend than 1/4.
> 
> 
> 2: what metal should I use for the driven element? I know most antenna parts are aluminum, but since it has to be bent... wouldn't copper be more flexible?
> 
> 
> 3: How does one attatch the balun to the driven element? Solder it?
> 
> 
> 4: when the design page gives me element spacing, I'm assuming that measurement is center to center?
> 
> 
> 5: what's the best thing to use to attatch the elements to the boom? Small brass screws? (I'm using hollow 3/8 aluminum element form old antenna)



you can enter 1/8 for the driven element and get the design

copper if good

solder is best

when fastening metals you would like to use a fastener of the same metal as you are attaching. end result is yo don't want dissimilar metals touching to minimize corrosion. if two metals have to mechanically (but not electrically) touch then you might isolate them from each other with paint, plastic. fasteners of an alloy of one of the metals might be the best you can do.


----------



## jaymw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alphanguy* /forum/post/16654517
> 
> 
> I'm getting ready to make a custom cut yagi for channel 17. I am using k7mem's design page, and I am wondering a few things:
> 
> 
> 1: Is it ok if I use 1/8 inch rod for the driven element? I say this because I thought 1/8 inch would be easier to bend than 1/4.
> 
> 
> 2: what metal should I use for the driven element? I know most antenna parts are aluminum, but since it has to be bent... wouldn't copper be more flexible?
> 
> 
> 3: How does one attatch the balun to the driven element? Solder it?
> 
> 
> 4: when the design page gives me element spacing, I'm assuming that measurement is center to center?
> 
> 
> 5: what's the best thing to use to attatch the elements to the boom? Small brass screws? (I'm using hollow 3/8 aluminum element form old antenna)




I would like to add to Johnposts' good comments.


I've used 1/8 for channel 18, using k7mem's page. Works just fine. If you have slightly less ambition, you might find yourself wanting to use less than the 2.2 wavelength boom (I think) that his page wants. It will complain that your boom is too short. Shorter booms (with less design gain) work for me, although I have no test range hard data to prove it.


I assume you are talking about bending to make the folded dipole for the driven element. 1/4 copper "refrigerator" tubing bends very nicely too, perhaps too easily. There is hard-copper tubing, but I have not tried it. Aluminum tubing is reasonably available. There are tubing benders available, most are for conduit, but I believe some are available for smaller gauge tubing. One crude approach I have used to avoid kinking the tubing at the bends is to _flatten_ it where i want to bend it. The flat part bends very nicely!


In the attic, I did not worry about dissimilar metals. YMMV.


Good luck!

Jay


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hphase* /forum/post/16648224
> 
> 
> I have two markets that are almost 180 deg apart in heading. I'd like to put two CM4221s (or CM4228s) back-to-back on the same mast. Will one antenna affect the performance of the other? I will NOT be combining the downleads; each will be separately delivered to an A-B switch. I remember there being something called a "capture area" that recommended antennas be separated vertically on the same mast, but I don't recall the details.



For UHF you shouldn't have too much problems because the screen reflector should isolate the driven elements from each other pretty well but if you have any VHF-hi stations there will be some interaction on those channels for sure.


When using an A/B switch, the coax to the antenna that is switched off is probably shorted or open but either way the length of coax going to the non-selected antenna will act as part of that antenna somewhat. That will hopefully de-tune the non-selected antenna so it won't bother even if there is some leakage through the reflectors.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jccsup* /forum/post/16654912
> 
> 
> What is the URL for k7mem's design page?



There is often a problem giving a link to his design page, perhaps because of the javascript. I go to google.com and enter k7mem in the search box. His site should be the first one listed. Look for:


Martin E. Meserve - K7MEM - VHF/UHF Yagi Antenna Design (you can also try entering this)


He also has another page for the antenna feed.


----------



## holl_ands

*ANALYSIS OF K6STI's HI-VHF 5-ELEMENT YAGI (WITH SWEPT BACK DRIVER):*

K6STI (FM Antenna Modeling and Yagi Optimizer) posted an optimized 75-ohm Hi-VHF

Yagi design on our local forum that provided moderate Gain (7.25-9.25 dBi), excellent

F/B (22++ dB) and F/R Ratios (22+ dB) across the ENTIRE Hi-VHF Band (Ch7-13):
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/vhftv.htm 

This provides LOTS of suppression of signals coming in from the BACK of the antenna.

And it's very compact: 30-in boom with under 33-in width....so can fit on a balcony....


I constructed a 4nec2 file and ran it....and spun off a 300-ohm Folded Yagi variation:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis 

Thus far, the designs all assume 3/8-in Aluminum tubing elements....


You'll also find comparisons to 4-Element and much longer 8-Element Yagis per

K7MEM's on-line calculator (DL6WU equations), which only adequately cover

2-3 consecutive channels.

Plus comparisons to other large (100-inch boom) high gain antennas that also

provide full band coverage across Ch7-13, such as a 14-Element LPDA and

Zig-Zag Log Periodic Array variants.....but need lots of real estate....


===================================
*ANALYSIS OF HI-VHF FOLDED DIPOLE ELEMENT DIAMETER:*

FYI: In my link above, you'll also find an investigation of how many Hi-VHF channels

can be adequately covered using just a Folded Dipole. Varying the element diameter,

I determined a "good" SWR and Net Gain across the entire Ch7-13 band could be

provided after chopping up a 10-ft piece of 1/2-in copper tubing and soldering four

copper angle pieces to form a 28.5-in by 2-in "box" with a (1-in?) opening on one side....


Total cost about $10 incl. a cheap Balun....or see if you can't RECYCLE something....


Also a good exercise for Yagi antenna designers.....how fat do elements "need" to be????


======================================================
*IMPORTANCE OF LOW SWR FOR DTV:*

You might find the recent post of interest if you don't think SWR is important:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=16653603 

*ALSO FLAT FREQUENCY RESPONSE ACROSS EACH CHANNEL:*
http://www.dielectric.com/broadcast/slotted.asp 


Yeah, I know, I worry too much.....fortunately most people are awash in signals....

Time to get back to that EZ-HD (aka RCA ANT751) model.....what a pain.....


===================================

EDIT (17Jun2009 @ 0735): Changed comparisons to K6STI's original vice my Folded Dipole variant.


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16654876
> 
> 
> Yeah, and from most of the helix antenna models Ive seen, most people seem to use them backwards, heh. (in other words, the feedpoint is the front of the antenna) They also generally dont have a wide bandwidth.
> 
> 
> The picture you have above is not a true helix antenna. More like a folded dipole with a spiral top.



NO, the helix does NOT have the feedpoint on the FRONT...a TRUE helical antenna has a screen reflector at the back end...and that would be where the feedpoint is. A Helix is a simple and effective antenna....~130 ohm feed.....easy to match to 50 or 75 ohm cable...but the "front" of the helix is NOT the feed point...

Wide bandwidth? You dont call 30-50MHz of bandwidth WIDE??? Compared to a yagi cut to channel, it is ultrawide!


AND the one in the picture a FOLDED dipole?? DO YOU EVEN know what a folded dipole is??? (I think not)


----------



## 300ohm

Heh, regarding my history of channel 1 post earlier in this thread, since the transition, I am now getting channel 1-1 on both my converter boxes. Its really WTVE-DT 51-1 (real channel 25), the shopping channel, out of Reading PA with lots of repeater stations. I wonder how they pulled off getting that channel assignment ?


----------



## willscary

Nobody can review the Blonder Tongue?


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16658125
> 
> 
> Heh, regarding my history of channel 1 post earlier in this thread, since the transition, I am now getting channel 1-1 on both my converter boxes. Its really WTVE-DT 51-1 (real channel 25), the shopping channel, out of Reading PA with lots of repeater stations. I wonder how they pulled off getting that channel assignment ?



It may just be a malfunctioning PSIP enconder at the station. We had a similar problem in DC, but the station is now reading 47.1.(It used to be display as channel 1, 8, & 47-very annoying)


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jaymw* /forum/post/16656305
> 
> 
> I've used 1/8 for channel 18, using k7mem's page. Works just fine. If you have slightly less ambition, you might find yourself wanting to use less than the 2.2 wavelength boom (I think) that his page wants. It will complain that your boom is too short. Shorter booms (with less design gain) work for me, although I have no test range hard data to prove it.



I used his design page to build a yagi for channel 8 and it consisted of a director, reflector, and folded dipole. The complete antenna was made with 24" of 3/4" PVC boom and 10 AWG solid cooper electrical wire elements.


It works great for 8 and 12.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im going to try one of those 5 element folded hi VHF yagis, thanks for posting hollands.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> a TRUE helical antenna has a screen reflector at the back end.



Putting on a reflector changes the equation from a PURE helical antenna like this:











> Quote:
> You dont call 30-50MHz of bandwidth WIDE??? Compared to a yagi cut to channel, it is ultrawide!



Thats wider bandwidth than Ive seen quoted on something with decent gain. How many loops and whats the length ? Yes, the helix bandwidth is wider than a yagi, but nowhere near a bowtie or whats needed to cover the UHF TV band. Ive seen wider bandwidth helix's with varying loops, but the gain was not impressive.



> Quote:
> AND the one in the picture a FOLDED dipole?? DO YOU EVEN know what a folded dipole is??? (I think not)





> Quote:
> The picture you have above is not a true helix antenna. More like a folded dipole with a spiral top.



Didnt say it was a folded dipole, but more like one. What do you want to call the thing, heh ?

(Hmm, there should be a formal name for that style antenna as I recall seeing some 1920s/30s short wave antennas similiar to it)


----------



## hphase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16657940
> 
> *ANALYSIS OF K6STI's HI-VHF 5-ELEMENT YAGI (WITH SWEPT BACK DRIVER):*
> 
> K6STI (FM Antenna Modeling and Yagi Optimizer) posted an optimized 75-ohm Hi-VHF
> 
> Yagi design on our local forum that provided moderate Gain (7.25-9.25 dBi), excellent
> 
> F/B (22++ dB) and F/R Ratios (22+ dB) across the ENTIRE Hi-VHF Band (Ch7-13):
> http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/vhftv.htm
> 
> This provides LOTS of suppression of signals coming in from the BACK of the antenna.
> 
> And it's very compact: 30-in boom with under 33-in width....so can fit on a balcony....



The high F/B ratio of this antenna has seriously tempted me to try this antenna. It seems short enough that I could use a PVC boom. Does anyone have any tips or ideas on how to best implement the swept-back feed arrangement?


One more thing -- If my co-channel problem is at the high end of the VHF band (11 and 13) do I even need the swept-back feed? Brian says that bent driven elements increase F/B at the low end of the band.


----------



## pjc123

So, I bought an Antennas Direct DB4 antenna a while back, threw it up in the attic attached to a piece of pvc pipe and aligned it using the signal bars on my tv. Quick......Done. I was getting 8 - 10 bars out of 10 on all UHF digital channels so I was really happy. That combined with NetFlix via a Roku box and goodbye cable. Then the DTV June 12th transition occurred and three channels moved to the upper VHF band (RF channels 7, 11 and 13). I didn't see that one coming, along with my ignorance of what an antenna advertised as "HDTV" meant (UHF, VHF, Joe'sHF, NOHF, whatever.....All I ask for is to get "Two and a half men" again on channel 11). I now get these channels intermittently. So, I am thinking of either adding a small cheap upper VHF antenna (AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 seems highly recommended) or just throwing out the DB4 and putting up something like a Winegard HD7694P. What is the better choice, and is either one acceptable, considering that I want to keep it in the attic for various reasons, and I am trying not to get something that is overkill. What combiner would you recommend? I have attached my Digital station report from tvfool (All I care about are the stations on the two main NYC broadcasting towers around the 72 degree heading). Thanks.


----------



## Cbl12886

I was hoping someone could recommend me an antenna. My wife and I just bought a house that is 100% concrete (Inside and Outside walls). We have not moved in yet (renovations will continue for a few more weeks) so I have not been able to try the reception. We life right outside Orlando, FL but do not want to spend the $50 a month for Cable TV, just internet for now. In the back of the house, there is a 10-12' pole with a outdoor light on it. I was thinking about putting a small antenna on it towards the top and running the cable along the outside of the house. It would have to be pretty minimal looking or my wife would not be too pleased. Any suggestions?

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...663d6fcf3117b6


----------



## arbie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pjc123* /forum/post/16660854
> 
> 
> So, I bought an Antennas Direct DB4 antenna a while back, threw it up in the attic attached to a piece of pvc pipe and aligned it using the signal bars on my tv. Quick......Done. I was getting 8 - 10 bars out of 10 on all UHF digital channels so I was really happy. That combined with NetFlix via a Roku box and goodbye cable. Then the DTV June 12th transition occurred and three channels moved to the upper VHF band (RF channels 7, 11 and 13). I didn't see that one coming, along with my ignorance of what an antenna advertised as "HDTV" meant (UHF, VHF, Joe'sHF, NOHF, whatever.....All I ask for is to get "Two and a half men" again on channel 11). I now get these channels intermittently. So, I am thinking of either adding a small cheap upper VHF antenna (AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 seems highly recommended) or just throwing out the DB4 and putting up something like a Winegard HD7694P. What is the better choice, and is either one acceptable, considering that I want to keep it in the attic for various reasons, and I am trying not to get something that is overkill. What combiner would you recommend? I have attached my Digital station report from tvfool (All I care about are the stations on the two main NYC broadcasting towers around the 72 degree heading). Thanks.



Before purchasing another antenna, try widening the reflector on your existing DB4 to 32"-36". As your antenna is protected in your attic, aluminum foil would work for the experiment. Four stations in El Lay reverted to their VHF-hi assignments, and I've widened reflectors on half-a-dozen 4-bay antennas to provide enough additional VHF-hi gain to make them usable.


Here's a link containing photos: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=4934


----------



## ngarrang




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Cbl12886* /forum/post/16666163
> 
> 
> I was hoping someone could recommend me an antenna. My wife and I just bought a house that is 100% concrete (Inside and Outside walls). We have not moved in yet (renovations will continue for a few more weeks) so I have not been able to try the reception. We life right outside Orlando, FL but do not want to spend the $50 a month for Cable TV, just internet for now. In the back of the house, there is a 10-12' pole with a outdoor light on it. I was thinking about putting a small antenna on it towards the top and running the cable along the outside of the house. It would have to be pretty minimal looking or my wife would not be too pleased. Any suggestions?
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...663d6fcf3117b6



I am jealous of how close you are to so many stations. So the wife doesn't want something huge and gawdy looking out there, eh? Well, you are in luck, you have so many channels near by, you should be able to get by with a relatively small antenna, and you may not even need any amplification.


I have a far messier situation and I am getting by with a DB2 antenna. That being, two pairs of bow-ties. They are cheap to buy, even cheaper to make. Just point the thing toward 118 degrees (magnetic) and you should get all those green stations crystal clear.* You may very well pick up some of the other stations from behind, they you are getting into some bad colors at that point.



*the art of antenna reception involves black magic, nothing is guaranteed.


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arbie* /forum/post/16666178
> 
> 
> Before purchasing another antenna, try widening the reflector on your existing DB4 to 32"-36". As your antenna is protected in your attic, aluminum foil would work for the experiment. Four stations in El Lay reverted to their VHF-hi assignments, and I've widened reflectors on half-a-dozen 4-bay antennas to provide enough additional VHF-hi gain to make them usable.
> 
> 
> Here's a link containing photos: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=4934



Nice work Arbie! Can you shoot a picture of the 4221 mod from the side and from the rear? I would like to see how you made your connections and use similar for attaching to a DIY mclapp 4-bay. I am using the same hardware cloth for my reflector. Do you need a frame to keep the reflector flat?


thanks!


Rick


----------



## Falcon_77

Which antenna is better for 12 & 13:


YA-1713

Y10-7-13


I am trying to pick-up WPRI/13 and WNAC/12 from Mystic, CT (06355). I have a YA1713 there now, but it was not reliable for WPRI/13 in the summer.


I'm pointing the existing YA1713 towards New Haven at the moment (for WTNH/10 & WEDN/9 at an off-angle) and will combine 9/10 with 12/13 using a Tin Lee custom combiner.


I know that the gain chart for the 1713 drops off at 13, so I'm wondering if the 10-7-13 might serve me better. Are there any other options I should consider? (besides VIP-class, etc.)


Thanks,


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/16669912
> 
> 
> I know that the gain chart for the 1713 drops off at 13, so I'm wondering if the 10-7-13 might serve me better. Are there any other options I should consider? (besides VIP-class, etc.)



I think the "gain chart" most people reference shows a significant dropoff for 13, but Winegard's specs indicate otherwise. In fact, they show it doing best on 13 (10.3 dB on 13 compared with 10.0 on 9 and 11, and 9.1 on 7).


For one data point, I'm 40 miles away from KAKW (transmitting on 13) and my YA-1713 is aimed at the Austin tower farm nearly 30º skewed from the KAKW tower. With an HDP-269 preamp into my D* HR20, I regularly get 95-100% signal strength on KAKW despite the "bad aim." I don't think that's poor performance on channel 13, though admittedly we're LOS to that tower.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IDRick* /forum/post/16667944
> 
> 
> Nice work Arbie! Can you shoot a picture of the 4221 mod from the side and from the rear? I would like to see how you made your connections and use similar for attaching to a DIY mclapp 4-bay. I am using the same hardware cloth for my reflector. Do you need a frame to keep the reflector flat?
> 
> 
> thanks!
> 
> 
> Rick




I second IDRicks questions about the neat, clean, straight, flat mounting job on the screen.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I think the "gain chart" most people reference shows a significant dropoff for 13, but Winegard's specs indicate otherwise. In fact, they show it doing best on 13 (10.3 dB on 13 compared with 10.0 on 9 and 11, and 9.1 on 7).



Yeah, holl_ands, who has a YA1713 also, reports no drop off on 13 either. Ken Nist may have had an earlier production run of that antenna.


----------



## arbie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IDRick* /forum/post/16667944
> 
> 
> Nice work Arbie! Can you shoot a picture of the 4221 mod from the side and from the rear? I would like to see how you made your connections and use similar for attaching to a DIY mclapp 4-bay. I am using the same hardware cloth for my reflector. Do you need a frame to keep the reflector flat?
> 
> 
> thanks!
> 
> 
> Rick





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16670447
> 
> 
> I second IDRicks questions about the neat, clean, straight, flat mounting job on the screen.



The CM-4221's mast mounts are u-shaped brackets, the corner of which has a horizontal cut that is crimped over the reflector. It takes maybe a minute to uncrimp the bracket corners, replace the reflector, and recrimp the bracket corners. I've attached the best closeup I have of the upper bracket, with the crimp in the upper-right. I'm sure someone else can provide a better picture/drawing of the brackets.


Once uncoiled from the 25' roll and flattened, my welded wire was stiff enough not to require a frame. But, as I have extra material, I roll the top and bottom inch of the reflector back on itself to provide extra horizontal stiffness.


rb


----------



## holl_ands

I inserted an RF Attenuator and observed how much attenuation it took before the video and sound

carriers were lost, using ANALOG Ch7, 9, 11 & 13 signals from (70-miles away) Mt Wilson in L.A.

If there was a significant gain loss across Ch13, the sound carrier would be lost with less

attenuation inserted than the video carrier. I did NOT observe any significant different for

Ch13....and there wasn't much difference compared to other Hi-VHF channels either:
www.imageevent.com/holl_ands/wgya1713 


Conclusion: Gain drop across Ch13 is an artifact of the oversimplified NEC simulation model.


----------



## IDRick

Thanks for posting the image, Arbie! Works very well for you! To bad CM does not sell the mounting brackets separate from the 4221. CM has a universal mount that could perhaps be modified to give a similar mounting strategy. Food for thought.... Thanks again!


----------



## bdr31693

Can anyone help me with reception problems? I live in West Hartford, CT. My TV fool analysis is here: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...663d4ab99e0ce2 


I am only able to put the antenna indoors. Currently, I have an RCA ANT1050, and a Philips MANT940. Both antennas acquire a semi-reliable signal on cbs and fox. The abc signal is poor, and I cannot receive NBC at all. Another problem with my reception is that the Springfield channels appear to be conflicting with the Hartford stations that I want to receive.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arbie* /forum/post/16671094
> 
> 
> Once uncoiled from the 25' roll and flattened, my welded wire was stiff enough not to require a frame. But, as I have extra material, I roll the top and bottom inch of the reflector back on itself to provide extra horizontal stiffness.



What type and size of screen are you using?


SORRY! I didn't see the information at the link you posted earlier.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bdr31693* /forum/post/16672180
> 
> 
> I am only able to put the antenna indoors. Currently, I have an RCA ANT1050, and a Philips MANT940. Both antennas acquire a semi-reliable signal on cbs and fox. The abc signal is poor, and I cannot receive NBC at all. Another problem with my reception is that the Springfield channels appear to be conflicting with the Hartford stations that I want to receive.



Have you taken a look at EV's thread on indoor antennas?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779


----------



## bdr31693




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16672265
> 
> 
> Have you taken a look at EV's thread on indoor antennas?
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779



The thing is, I dont even know what type of antenna to chose. I'm guessing directional to avoid picking up Springfield stations, but then I might miss some of the other ones in my area.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I would try an RS UFO, I dont know which direction the Springfield stations are, but you should be able to pick up quite a bit in the yellow at 220ish degrees.....and reaim for the stations huddled at 25ish degrees.


There is a chance a ClearStream1 Convertible without its reflector giving you less gain in one direction but giving you bi directional performance would work as a set and forget solution, but probably with an additional amplifier needed. You could also amp an mclapp improved 4 bay bowtie (without reflector) and get similar results.


This all depends on you not having building materials degrading your signals.


Dont forget to look for sweet spots.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16671611
> 
> 
> Conclusion: Gain drop across Ch13 is an artifact of the oversimplified NEC simulation model.



Thank you very much for the info. However, I may still try the Y10-7-13 as I already have a YA1713 there and would like to compare performance.


----------



## pjc123

Arbie,


Thanks for the info, especially the no cost alluminum foil method just to see if it helps. When I get a chance I will give it a try.


----------



## bdr31693

Thanks for the help, I will try the UFO.


----------



## thedealmaker

Hi,

I have a radioshack 1892 UFO antenna and a Zenith dtt901 dtv converter. I got 37 channels but some of the channels go in and out from time to time even after I adjusted the setting in my antenna, and I also want to get more channels too. Can I use preamp like CM7777 with this indoor antenna? Or should I use just an amp? What is the best preamp? What is the best amp? What do you think of the motorola signal amplifier?


Thanks.


----------



## systems2000

The CM7777 pre-amp is designed for outside antennas with long cable runs. It would not be a good choice for your situation. If you want to try a DA, look at the CM3410.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

No need to stack another amp on the RS 1892 UFO. Bad idea.


You should get a longer 12 or 25 ft of coax and look for a sweet spot, you can look for a sweet spot within the 6ft provided coax range as well.


A half a foot up down left right forward back can make a big difference. Also windows facing the towers are prime locations likely to improve reception.


----------



## systems2000

Anyone know where I can get bulk quantities of the Channel Master 3072's and 3075's?


----------



## thedealmaker

Is it a rule not to stack a preamp or amp to an amped indoor antenna like RS 1892 ufo? Will preamp or amp ever improve its reception?


Any more ideas how to improve reception with RS 1892 ufo? I already played with the channel setting in the antenna.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16673433
> 
> 
> No need to stack another amp on the RS 1892 UFO. Bad idea.
> 
> 
> You should get a longer 12 or 25 ft of coax and look for a sweet spot, you can look for a sweet spot within the 6ft provided coax range as well.
> 
> 
> A half a foot up down left right forward back can make a big difference. Also windows facing the towers are prime locations likely to improve reception.


----------



## kedirekin

Yes, it's a rule. There's really no way an additional amp can improve the signal, it can only make it worse. For TV reception, you want the signal as clear as possible, not as loud as possible.


Think of it like putting two bull-horns together - the extra bull-horn might make things louder, but the sound won't be clearer. If anything the sound quality will be worse, possibly much worse (screeching and distortion).


----------



## rgharrin

At what distance between outdoor antenna and TV, is a preamp needed?

What coax should be used?


----------



## kedirekin

HDTVPrimer recommends a pre-amp for any cable run over 20 feet.


The pre-amp should be as close to the antenna as possible - mounted right on the antenna mast is best.


RG6 cable is generally recommended. Some people recommend quad-shield RG6, but with a decent pre-amp I don't think it makes too much difference.


----------



## ctdish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rgharrin* /forum/post/16676443
> 
> 
> At what distance between outdoor antenna and TV, is a preamp needed?
> 
> What coax should be used?



If you are receiving only weak signals a low noise preamp can provide improvement with any length of cable. This is because the receiver/TV almost always has a higher noise figure than them preamp.

John


----------



## nordloewelabs

here's my situation:


- i'm only 8 miles away from the towers.

- line of sight is obstructed by a hill in my neighbourhood.

- i can only use an antenna indoors.

- i've tested 4 antennas so far.

- with the exception of the home-made one, all had built-in amplifiers.


antennas i've tested so far:


1) home-made loop (no VHF reception).


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kedirekin* /forum/post/16676578
> 
> 
> HDTVPrimer recommends a pre-amp for any cable run over 20 feet.



As General McAuliffe said "NUTS!" (I'm a veteran of the 101st ABN, '77-'78)


20' ft of cable is only 1.1-1.5 dB loss (RG6) loss. It's silly to put a 15-25 dB pre-amp on there to overcome that unless there are other factors.



> Quote:
> The pre-amp should be as close to the antenna as possible - mounted right on the antenna mast is best.



Absolutely correct. It is important to boost the signal before any (or as little as possible) of it is lost. Once lost due to attenuation, it cannot be resurrected.



> Quote:
> RG6 cable is generally recommended. Some people recommend quad-shield RG6, but with a decent pre-amp I don't think it makes too much difference.



As long as you're not in an electrically noisy environment, "regular" RG6 is "good enough".


----------



## EscapeVelocity

First try reducing the telescoping dipoles to 30ish inches and deploy them out flat and at other angles in a V upwards and or towards the towers at perpendicular position.


But you will probably need to get a better VHF antenna and a UVSJ combiner (UHF VHF Signal Joiner) to combine the VHF antenna signal and your Terk HDTVa for the UHF signal into the same cable. Just fold up the Terks dipoles and stow away.


You can build the VHF yagi that Hollands has posted. Small and very good.


You can build the VHF bowtie that mclapp has posted. Small and pretty good.


You can get a VHF only yagi like the AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 with a 60 inch boom length and mount on the ceiling.


Or you can try the EZ HD or RCA ANT751 clones and add an off board amplifier like the Channel Master 7777 or the Winegard 269.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16678615
> 
> 
> First try reducing the telescoping dipoles to 30ish inches [...]



i've spent a great deal of time moving the antennas around and messing with both their dipoles' length and angle. i've found that an angle of 150-120 degrees works best here. best length is 1 to 1.5 feet. so the 40% signal strength i get (when the antennas are at the "sweet spot") already takes into account the optimal angles and lengths. i've also tried different heights (stacking boxes) and distances from the wall.



> Quote:
> You can build the VHF yagi that Hollands has posted. Small and very good. You can build the VHF bowtie that mclapp has posted. Small and pretty good.



due to space constraints (apt in NYC), i cant use anything too big. i'll search the forum for those.



> Quote:
> Or you can try the EZ HD or RCA ANT751 clones and add an off board amplifier like the Channel Master 7777 or the Winegard 269.



hey, i was looking for a small antenna like that on www.solidsignal.com , but the only antenna of manageable size i found there (for use indoors) was the







HDTVo . has anyone here had experience with that one? the RCA ANT751 looks fine too.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> HDTVPrimer recommends a pre-amp for any cable run over 20 feet.



The key of course is a quality, low noise preamp.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16678564
> 
> 
> 20' ft of cable is only 1.1-1.5 dB loss (RG6) loss. It's silly to put a 15-25 dB pre-amp on there to overcome that unless there are other factors.



The other factor is VSWR.


Even so, the number of people who really need an extra 1-2 db of performance is small.


----------



## holl_ands

Re Preamp and System Noise Figure: fol. is very informative presentation:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=888237 

Scroll down a few posts to find chart with multiple Preamp examples,

and scroll up for expanations....


Link to tczernec's spread sheet no longer works. I should probably put

one on my "files" page. Till then, here are the equations:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=879270 


PS: The Preamp Overload Calculator they refer to is found in my "files" page:
www.imageevent.com/holl_ands/files


----------



## kedirekin

There is another factor - the noise figure advantage of the pre-amp. Combine the two factors and even at 20 feet the improvement (3 dB or more) starts to become compelling. Above 20 feet it becomes even more compelling.


I'd agree a 25 dB amp on a 20 foot cable run is overkill, but a 15 dB amp would be just about right - just enough to overcome the cable loss and the TV's noise figure, plus another 10 dB.


----------



## nordloewelabs

i dont have experience with amps and i wanna make sure i get something that will improve my VHF signal without messing with my converter box (CM-7000). i wanna boost the signal coming out of an indoor antenna and the cable run will be short (about 10 feet).


so my question is: is there an amount of gain that can damage my converter? is it safe for me to buy the CM 7777 amp for an indoor application? if not, which amp should i get?


another question: my Terk HDTVa came with an amp. does anyone know what is the gain of that amp?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16680261
> 
> 
> i dont have experience with amps and i wanna make sure i get something that will improve my VHF signal without messing with my converter box (CM-7000). i wanna boost the signal coming out of an indoor antenna and the cable run will be short (about 10 feet).
> 
> 
> so my question is: is there an amount of gain that can damage my converter? is it safe for me to buy the CM 7777 amp for an indoor application? if not, which amp should i get?
> 
> 
> another question: my Terk HDTVa came with an amp. does anyone know what is gain of that amp?



Actual DAMAGE...no, at most the output is a small fraction of a volt....

No, a Preamp won't help and could hurt with only 10-ft of cable....


The "a" means the Terk is amplfied, the unamplified model ends in an "i".

Terk/Audiovox website doesn't provide gain numbers (oh so typical for Urp...Terk).


When you use more than one Preamp, tuner OVERLOAD is likely, when means that

intermod noise signals can prevent reception of weak signals.

[I can't hear you, shout louder into your cellphone!!!!!! Oh so wrong....]

If towers are within say 10 miles of you, the HDTVa might even be overloaded....


Preamp Gain selection depends on the strength of signals from local stations and

loss due to indoor location.....YMMV....YMMV....YMMV....


High gain Preamps (e.g. highly rated CM7777) are for RURAL use, not Urban...

and many Suburban areas would benefit from the lower gain alternatives....


And due to higher man-made noise floor (esp Ch2-6), Preamps

are less likely to help VHF reception than UHF....


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16680341
> 
> 
> When you use more than one Preamp, tuner OVERLOAD is likely, when means that
> 
> intermod noise signals can prevent reception of weak signals.



i'm not planning to chain them. i wanna buy an amp to use in place of the amp provided with the HDTVa (it comes as a separate item in the box....its use is optional).


so, if a pre-amp (such as the 7777) cannot cause damage to the converter, should i buy the with the highest gain that my budget can afford? sorry, but i know nothing on the subject....


----------



## holl_ands

I read back through most of your posts....

So you're in an apt, 8 miles N of Empire State Bldg in NYC.... Which floor? Facing ESB?


It's likely they're still working on the VHF transmitters...give it a week or two....

Out on the West Coast, two of L.A.'s VHF stations are still at low power....

I can't imagine working on that mass of metal they call an "antenna" on top of the ESB...


Did you post the www.tvfool.com results URL for your location???


Did you try the Terk HDTVa without the Preamp module???


----------



## nordloewelabs

> So it's likely they're still working on the VHF transmitters...give it a week or two...


my concern is that FCC bureaucracy will drag this problem for months.... :-\\


> Did you post the www.tvfool.com results URL for your location???


no because i get all UHF channels. only prob is the VHF ones. TVFool puts those channels on the green area as LOS.


> Did you try the Terk HDTVa without the Preamp module???


yep. the amp doesnt affect the UHF channels much, but without it, RF-13 drops from 40% to zero! it's paramount to high VHF in my apt.


----------



## holl_ands

If TVFool says it's LOS, then that hill isn't in the way....which means

you're awash in signal, even if apt bldg attenuates signal (up to 25 dB).

I don't see any other TV stations from Hackensack to the Bronx, so ESB is overload source.

Although unlikely, WNYU-FM in the Bronx might be an overload issue, depending on where you are.


I would suspect multipath, which means try to block signals

bouncing in from all around you, such as a metal reflector screen

(temporarily try some cooking sheets or Al foil....)


Here's an example UHF "antenna in a box"....VHF will be a lot bigger:
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~wn17/ 


Higher gain antenna also helps in this respect, but needs lots of room...


At least one well known apt dweller found a WINDOW mounted Loop Antenna

worked better than many other indoor antennas he tried. Here's a design for FM Band

(above CH6) which can be shrunk down for Hi-VHF...roughly HALF the diameter.

And here is a UHF Loop that can be increased in diameter by a factor of 2 to 2.5 for Hi-VHF:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/Loop.html 

Loop Antenna Calculator can be found here (enter 192 MHz...or your choice):
http://ka1fsb.home.att.net/loopcalc.html 

[NEC sim modeling exercise is on my TO DO list...unless someone else volunteers...]


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I need recs for this situation. Friend of mines, place in the mountains of North Carolina, near Mt. Mitchell.


Old Mill house is metal sheathed.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7f1480d77d8eb6 



Im thinking a Winegard 7084p, 7082p, or 7080p with a Channel Master 7777 amplifier and a rotor.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16680531
> 
> 
> If TVFool says it's LOS, then that hill isn't in the way....which means
> 
> you're awash in signal, even if apt bldg attenuates signal (up to 25 dB).



TVFool is wrong. i live on the 3rd floor, but even if i went to the building's roof above the 5th floor, i would still not see downtown Manhattan. as a matter of fact i would not see anything besides the hill where Tryon Park is.


so the building's structure can attenuate up to 25db?! wow. that a lot...



> Quote:
> I would suspect multipath, which means try to block signals bouncing in from all around you, such as a metal reflector screen (temporarily try some cooking sheets or Al foil???).



given the number of buildings, multipath is a likely culprit too, but that hill is a bummer. i remember looking the terrain profile at TVFool and it showed my location as "hole" on a foot hill.



> Quote:
> Higher gain antenna also helps in this respect, but needs lots of room...



i've been considering a diff antenna, but given i can ony use it indoors, i cant buy something too big. *EscapeVelocity* suggested the RCA ANT751 which isnt too big. i've been considering the Winegard HD-1080 . what you think?


my plan was to first try an amp on the HDTVa i already own. if that didnt work, i would try a new antenna with more emphasis on VHF.


i'm also considering making a whiskers VHF antenna tomorrow. i came a cross a PDF here in forum called "2 Bay VHF-HI.pdf". that seems an easy antenna to build.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16680531
> 
> 
> (temporarily try some cooking sheets or Al foil....)



i tried a reflector made with cardboard and tinfoil. the size is about 18"x36". it influences the UHF signals but not the VHF ones. i guess the size isnt right for high VHF. i can make another tinfoil reflector. which size should i make it? at which distance from the antenna should i place it?



> Quote:
> Here's a design for FM Band
> 
> (above CH6) which can be shrunk down for Hi-VHF...roughly HALF the diameter.



did you mean to attach an image?


----------



## holl_ands

25 dB is largest number measured for a modern, well shielded Office Bldg.

You're probably a lot less, esp high up...


Bigger than the Rabbit Ears....more is better....big pizza tins or bigger???

[Now my mouth is watering for some of that NYC pizza we can't get.....]

Try about 3-5 feet from the antenna....but if 2 feet is all you got.....


Scroll on down beyond the Loop Antenna azimuthal gain charts. It's from:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/COMPARING.html 


If you have access to IEEE documents, here's a low-VSWR design from 25-years ago

for entire VHF band that inserts a capacitor in the loop for tuning VSWR:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/lo...hDecision=-203


----------



## holl_ands

Ah ha, Tyron Park....when he was 19, I took my son on one of my

DC/Philly/NYC work trips...

we visited The Cloister's Museum...reminded me of Musee de Cluny in Paris...


Care to provide nearest cross streets....that's a monster hill....


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Im thinking the Winegard 7082p with the CM 7777 amplifier, but what rotor?


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16680895
> 
> 
> Ah ha, Tyron Park....when he was 19, I took my son on one of my
> 
> DC/Philly/NYC work trips...
> 
> we visited The Cloister's Museum...reminded me of Musee de Cluny in Paris...
> 
> 
> Care to provide nearest cross streets....that's a monster hill....



Cloisters look really nice. i remember reading somewhere that the whole structure was brought from Europe stone by stone and rebuilt on the top of the hill.


i'm near the foot of that hill.


do you think the Winegard HD-1080 or the RCA ANt751 used indoors could get me a better high VHF result?


and regarding the CM7777, should i get it or is it too much gain? i wish those amps had a knob to control the gain....


----------



## holl_ands

Which foot??? Can you be just a LITTLE more precise????

I'm not looking for an address, just trying to double check TVFool...


----------



## nordloewelabs

broadway + dyckman.


----------



## nordloewelabs

this is the "foot" of the hill. notice the crater covered with green on the far right of the image. just 10 blocks north of it the signal is way better.


----------



## holl_ands

TVFool results for broadway + dyckman:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...618a1ca3f6f010 


Yup, you're awash in signal strength. If you click on say Ch11 you can

see the terrain profile. It just glances across Wadsworth Terrace.
http://www.tvfool.com/modeling/tmp/6...ST-WPIX-DT.png 

[Why does yours look different than the above?????]


Even if it's blocked by the hill, there still will be lots of signal.

Based on the profile, I have no reason to doubt TVFool results...

PS: Radio signals follow a path that is 4/3 that of the Earth's radius,

which bends a little....so Radio LOS may not be visual LOS.


Of course, if the ESB transmitters are at low power....or only some

of the antenna panels around the ESB are activated, it could be less.


[While waiting, I was looking at an even worse location: El Rancho

Jubilee (restaurant?) at 10 Hillside Ave. It's as much as 10 dB worse

than you, but still awash in signal strength.]


PS: You can also see signal strength in surrounding area here:
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=90


----------



## nordloewelabs

when you say "awash" you mean too much signal? i can get the UHF channels with ease, but the high VHF ones have been a battle since June 12 when ABC, CW and PBS went back to VHF land.


btw, the terrain profile makes you think you can spot the ESB.... i assure you that it's impossible even with a binocular because the hill in in the way. the TVFool info is wrong.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16681040
> 
> 
> when you say "awash" you mean too much signal? i can get the UHF channels with ease, but the high VHF ones have been a battle since June 12 when ABC, CW and PBS went back to VHF land.
> 
> 
> btw, the terrain profile makes you think you can spot the ESB.... i assure you that it's impossible even with a binocular because the hill in in the way. the TVFool info is wrong.



Anything stronger than -30 dBm is very strong and -20 dBm will overload most Preamps,

meaning WEAK stations will be hard to receive....which is not the case for CH7/11/13.

In your location, I wouldn't use a Preamp...or an amplified antenna...


Here are TVFool results for El Rancho Jubilee at 10 Hillside Ave:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...618ab4c8cb684c 

For sure it's not LOS....but still very strong signals (NM is nearly 50 dB).

Further away from the hill, the signals levels increase as the diffraction

angle is less.


When you're in a valley (you and me both), the signals can bounce off

hills "behind" you as well as glance off hills on either side (between

you and ESB). This is multipath....


I'm quitting for now....man i miss Leno....


----------



## nordloewelabs

interesting fact about the difference between real LOS and radio LOS.


this is one of the reasons i didnt wanna post TVFool's data.... it might have some accurate data, but it sure has inaccurate ones too. the NYC thread is packed with people who cant receive the high VHF channels ABC, CW and PBS. the VHF figures on the table do not represent the reality.


well, TVFools data wont help me.... i need to know what is the best course of action to get the high VHF channels. i'll try making a bowtie tomorrow.


regarding the amplifiers, now i dont know if i should buy it anymore.... you say that it will make things worse.







that sucks! i dont care for ABC at all. and i rarely watch CW, but i'd really like to improve the reception of ch 13.


i'm close to giving up.... i should read more, anyway.




> Quote:
> I'm quitting for now....man i miss Leno....



no worries. he'll be back soon enough. i always liked Conan better so i'm fine. he's more "behaved" now which looks strange to me accustomed to his clownness. so, in a way, i miss Conan.


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16680466
> 
> 
> my concern is that FCC bureaucracy will drag this problem for months.... :-\\



To their credit, so far the FCC seems to be moving very quickly in response to situations where there is widespread loss of reception.


----------



## kedirekin

I hate to sound stupid, but has anyone suggested you try a regular old non-amplified rabbit ears? It may be your Terk is just lousy on VHF.


With signals that strong you shouldn't need an amplifier, and it's generally better to not use an amp if you don't need to - avoids the whole intermod distortion/overload issue.


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: L.A. area "GCG Communicator" reported many Hi-VHF reception problems (Ch11/13)

were solved by collapsing Rabbit Ears to about 14-inches (each)...fully extended is for Ch2-6:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=16681974 

It won't be posted on-line for a couple weeks--ya gotta subscribe to get it "real time":
http://www.bext.com/_CGC/ 


Here are Rabbit Ear lengths (tip-to-tip when completely horizontal):
http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html 

He recommends laying the ears down completely horizontal....however in URBAN

environments it may help to try 45-degrees....with additional extension.


Many stations are upgrading to circular polarization (both Horiz & Vertical) which

means 45-degree antenna has a chance of receiving one, the other or both.

FCC allows stations to DOUBLE their total power if circular polarization....it's

effectively two separate antennas driven by two separate transmitters.....

EACH at the authorized ERP level if it were strictly horizontally polarized

[and I'm sure someone will point out exceptions to this general "rule"...]


You can check whether a station is Circular (C) or Elliptical (E) in fol. spread sheet:
http://www.rabbitears.info/ss/ 

Although there are some C & E UHF stations in NYC, the VHF stations have not yet

upgraded.....as MobileTV rolls out this year they may decide to finally upgrade....


HDTVPrimer has guidelines for use of RabbitEars:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/R...s.html#Getting 

Those lengths look way too high....must be for a full-wave dipole vice usual half-wave.


K6STI analyzed Rabbit Ears with 45-degree angle for FM Band using NEC sim:
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/rabbit.htm 

For 90 MHz, tip-to-tip when horizontal was 43-in and 40-in when rotated to 54-deg.

Transposing to say 192 MHz, horiz tip-to-tip is 20.16-in and 18.75-in after rotating

to angled position. [192 MHz is in middle of Hi-VHF Band, see KYES link above.]


So try all of the above methods and let us know.....


Although I didn't specifically do Rabbit Ears, I did analyze SWR for

various element diameters in a Folded Dipole:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=16657940 

You can see that skinny wire Folded Dipoles only cover 2-3 channels

with reasonable SWR (under 2 and preferably under 1.5).


===========================================

Surely you know an "HDTV Ready" antenna should have low VSWR,

something typical Rabbit Ears are hopelessly impossible providing

unless you have the skills to tweak every time you change channels.

[Yes, there IS a difference between HDTV and Analog TV antennas.....]


Just one of the several bones I've picked with JER3 (Antennas Direct):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=16653603 

They shouldn't be advertising VHF coverage in ClearStreams if they

can't provide Gain, Azimuthal coverage and VSWR info.....


TVNewsDay reported "VHF Throws Wrench In DTV Transition":
http://www.tvnewsday.com/articles/20...aily.5/?page=1 

I posted fol. info in the L.A. thread re VHF problems re VSWR & coverage prediction:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=16681206 


=====================================

Of course the best advice right now is to sit tight and wait a couple weeks for the

VHF transmitters to sort out their Analog to DTV upgrades...it isn't a simple switch...


----------



## rgharrin

I am using the older CM4228 with CM7777 and am 65 mi from channels 7, 8,55.

I have clear shot across a lake.

Signal wavers at 50-70% then drops sometimes to 0%, continuously. Effects 55 more. Moving the antenna around looking for sweet spot, I get the above or nothing.


area code 54982


----------



## willscary

multipath? Consider a 91XG for Fox 55 (and PBS 24) and a Winegard YA-1713 for channels 7 and 9. You will have better gain on VHF with the YA-1713 and hopefully you will have a narrower bandwidth with the 91XG. Silver Lake? I have a picture I took of the lake in December when it was frozen but snow free...right at sunrise.


You could be getting interference from another channel 31 for Fox 55. I see co-channel interference on your TV Fool plot, plus, there are adjacent channels 30 and 32 that are relatively strong in your area, so perhaps some adjacent channel problems also.


If I could get to my 91XG, I could help you out to see if it would work, but it is at the top of my tower on a 10' mast. I am not removing it anytime soon!


The CM antenna has high gain, but I know for a fact that it drops out at my location while the 91XG is rock solid. I am behind a hill and I had multipath with the 4228 while I have none with the 91XG. I lost a dB or so of gain on lower 20's UHF stations, but I completely eliminated my multipath, giving me a cleaner and better overall signal.


Bill


----------



## kinemax




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arbie* /forum/post/16666178
> 
> 
> Before purchasing another antenna, try widening the reflector on your existing DB4 to 32"-36". As your antenna is protected in your attic, aluminum foil would work for the experiment. Four stations in El Lay reverted to their VHF-hi assignments, and I've widened reflectors on half-a-dozen 4-bay antennas to provide enough additional VHF-hi gain to make them usable.
> 
> 
> Here's a link containing photos: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=4934



For extension with rods, what type of materials did you use or would suggest for use as the extended rods and for mounting them?


TIA.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16681040
> 
> 
> when you say "awash" you mean too much signal? i can get the UHF channels with ease, but the high VHF ones have been a battle since June 12 when ABC, CW and PBS went back to VHF land.
> 
> 
> btw, the terrain profile makes you think you can spot the ESB.... i assure you that it's impossible even with a binocular because the hill in in the way. the TVFool info is wrong.



It's not that the TVfool info is "wrong" - your attention is directed at the note that says that the vertical axis is exagerated for visual clarity.


If you want something more precise, try Delorme has a software package for accuate terrain cross-section views. I forget the actual name of it off-hand, but a local guy was using it to screen potential customer's locations for a WiMAX application.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kedirekin* /forum/post/16681650
> 
> 
> I hate to sound stupid, but has anyone suggested you try a regular old non-amplified rabbit ears? It may be your Terk is just lousy on VHF.



the HDTVa has rabit ears. i keep them open at about 150 degrees and stretched about 18" inches each.


i'm open to suggestions for a better *indoor high VHF antenna*.... i'm considering 2 models: "Winegard HD-1080" and the "RCA ANT751". i'm not sure if i can find a good spot for them inside a tight NYC apartment, but i could try. i can not get anything bigger.



> Quote:
> With signals that strong you shouldn't need an amplifier, and it's generally better to not use an amp if you don't need to - avoids the whole intermod distortion/overload issue.



you guys have convinced me that -20db to -30db is a lot. however, i'm also convinced that TVFool is not showing accurate data. it might be right for the UHF channels, but LOTS of people on the NYC thread have complained about the VHF channels. so the high VHF figures on TVFool must be wrong.


the amp on the HDTVa can be turned OFF through a switch on the amp itself (the amp is a seperate piece and it can even be removed from the setup altogether). i've tried the HDTVa with the amp ON and OFF....on VHF and UHF. here is the results:


when it's ON, it improves the UHF channels slightly (90% -> 100%). it has never caused trouble any on the UHF band. i actually dont need the amp to watch UHF. like i said before, UHF is a not an issue at all in my apartment.


my problem is the high VHF channels. when the HDTVa's amp is ON, both RF-7 and RF-13 *improve substantially* (0 -> 40%)! that's why i'm inclined to believe that a stronger amp could help me more on the high VHF band. again, UHF has never been an issue here.


any suggestions for an indoor antenna with better high VHF performance? i'm gonna try to build a 1-bay high VHF bowtie today.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16682709
> 
> 
> It's not that the TVfool info is "wrong" - your attention is directed at the note that says that the vertical axis is exagerated for visual clarity.



i can better understand the LOS issue now. according to *holl_ands*, visual LOS is different from radio LOS. that explains the confusion. the terrain image on TVFool doest mean much to me as i can go outside and see that there's a high hill between me and the ESB.


but again, i understand now that the term "LOS" is to be used loosely.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16682224
> 
> 
> FYI: L.A. area "GCG Communicator" reported many Hi-VHF reception problems (Ch11/13) were solved by collapsing Rabbit Ears to about 14-inches (each)...



i've tried every angle and length possible in my HDTVa's dipoles. what i found is that 18in-length per dipole and an angle of about 150-deg work best. btw, i did try am angle of *180-deg*....it gives me nothing.



> Quote:
> Here are Rabbit Ear lengths (tip-to-tip when completely horizontal):
> http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html



LOTS of good links in your post. i'm gonna check them all out. thanks a lot!



> Quote:
> Surely you know an "HDTV Ready" antenna should have low VSWR, something typical Rabbit Ears are hopelessly impossible providing unless you have the skills to tweak every time you change channels.



is a bowtie or a big loop better in that respect?



> Quote:
> Of course the best advice right now is to sit tight and wait a couple weeks for the VHF transmitters to sort out their Analog to DTV upgrades...it isn't a simple switch...



i got my 3 antennas (TV55, HDTVa, UFO) monday. if i want my money back, i cant take too long to return them. i'll wait a few more days but if i wait a month.


thanks for all the info.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Id get rid of that TV-55. You can aim it like a bazooka for UHF.


Try the CM 7777 with your HDTVa (-a) it wont hurt anything....or maybe a Winegard AP 8800 which has higher gain on VHF than UHF. You may be getting multi path problems with your VHF dipoles that are solved by the tighter beamwidth of the UHF elements on your HDTVa. (Especially if the RS UFO isnt working well for you as it has a wider beamwidth on UHF than the HDTVa)

Chart off amplifiers offered by SolidSignal.


----------



## kedirekin

I wonder if VHF just isn't penetrating your building. I've heard that strong UHF can flood in through a window much better than VHF can.


How feasible would it be to test your antenna outside side for a few minutes? Can you get it to a spot where it'd have a relatively unobstructed view of the hill between you and the broadcast tower?


FWIW: for short cable runs, a stronger amp won't help. To improve reception, what you want is a cleaner amp (with a lower noise figure). I don't know anything about the a Terk - don't know if has a good low-noise amp. Personally, when I want amplification, I'd much prefer to couple an un-amplified antenna with a known high quality low-noise pre-amp, like the CM 7777 or the AP 8700. I've tried the amplified antenna thing, and I've always been disappointed - been unlucky enough to always buy bad ones, I guess.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kedirekin* /forum/post/16683698
> 
> 
> I wonder if VHF just isn't penetrating your building. I've heard that strong UHF can flood in through a window much better than VHF can.



i dont know the material of which the building is made. i can tell you it has terrible acoustic insulation. i can hear people whispering in the courtyard an TVs in other apartments. pain in the neck!











> Quote:
> How feasible would it be to test your antenna outside side for a few minutes? Can you get it to a spot where it'd have a relatively unobstructed view of the hill between you and the broadcast tower?



my window faces the opposite direction....



> Quote:
> I don't know anything about the a Terk - don't know if has a good low-noise amp.



having the amp ON improves high VHF from 0->40% for both UFO and HDTVa. amps cant be so evil.


----------



## kedirekin

When you've turned off the amp, did it remain in the signal path? Is the amp built in to the antenna, or wired such that it has to stay connected? A powered-off amp often acts like an attenuator, blocking weak signals.


If you already removed it from the signal path, then don't mind me. Just trying to suggest things to try - to help diagnose what's going on.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Concrete, brick, stucco, metal siding, aluminumized vapor barriers(this one is hard to assess), terracotta roof tiles, all bad for RF signals.


----------



## kedirekin

Perhaps that wasn't clear.


If the amp blocks the signal when off, and hurts the signal when on (really noisy or overloading) - then removing it from the signal path completely might actually give you better reception.


----------



## holl_ands

More re VHF problems in several major cities, incl. NYC, Chicago, Philly, Houston and L.A.:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/82646 
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/82640 


Good news: Ch4 in New Orleans has such a clear channel, it can be picked up in Toronto, Canada:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/82514


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kedirekin* /forum/post/16683923
> 
> 
> When you've turned off the amp, did it remain in the signal path? Is the amp built in to the antenna, or wired such that it has to stay connected? A powered-off amp often acts like an attenuator, blocking weak signals.



the HDTVa's amp is a separate piece that can be kept out of the equation completely. however, when testing, i limited myself to using the amps ON/OFF switch. i'll try this antenna again later without the amp.


thanks for the heads-up.


----------



## kousikb

@nordl: If you want to try a combo VHF-Hi/UHF antenna, you can try the RCA ANT751. Its not that big and if you are in 2nd floor or higher apartement, you can probably lay it in the floor or probably conceal it under the sofa or bed or worst case mount it to a floor lamp/speaker stand. Also its available in local Wal*mart so you can easily return it too. Atleast its available in Central Jersey. Only problem with this antenna is that UHF gain is nothing to talk about so you may need an amplifier (probably you don't need it because you are in Manhattan.. close to transmitter). I think CM7777 will be an overkill for you. I am also at a similar situation like you where I am not getting no VHF-Hi using my eagle-aspen UHF. I haven't done any of the VHF-Hi mod yet. As of me, I received my CM-3030 today with the CM-3038 preamp. Have to check out how it works at 33 miles from NYC.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I need recs for this situation. Friend of mines, place in the mountains of North Carolina, near Mt. Mitchell.


Old Mill house is metal sheathed.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7f1480d77d8eb6 



Please help!


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16687065
> 
> 
> I need recs for this situation.



Did you try more height? The CBS station won't work at 15'. Most of the others are marginal.


----------



## finlay648

When stacking a VHF antenna with a UHF antenna on the same mast, should the VHF antenna be on top or below or does it matter?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *finlay648* /forum/post/16687598
> 
> 
> When stacking a VHF antenna with a UHF antenna on the same mast, should the VHF antenna be on top or below or does it matter?



I'd look at the weakest station that you want to receive. Next, using tvfool, try swapping the two antennas. I'd install the antennas in whichever position gave you the most margin on the weakest station.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> More re VHF problems in several major cities, incl. NYC, Chicago, Philly, Houston and L.A.:





> Quote:
> KYW NewsRadio reporter John Ostapkovich talked to RF expert Oded Bendov about VHF DTV reception problems. In his article Transmitter Expert Not Surprised by DTV Transition Woes, “The FCC has done very poor engineering and assigned Channel six and other channels in the VHF much lower power than they should have,” Bendov said. “For example, in the case of Channel six, they probably need as much as 15 times more power in the transmitter than they have now."
> 
> 
> Bendov said that finding a UHF channel for channel 6 (WPVI-TV in Philadelphia) and “others in this pickle” might be the only solution.



Yep, they should have realized this long ago. Even with a CM1221, the signal meter on WPVI-TV for me is jumping up and down all over the place.



> Quote:
> Dombrowksi says WPVI-TV people are meeting with the FCC to try to figure out what's wrong (is it a transmitter problem, a rabbit-ears problem, or a converter box problem?) and solve it as soon as possible.



I cant believe they dont/didnt realize that transmitting with only 7.56 KW may present a problem, heh. (Hmmm, their Action News van may actually carry that much transmit power, at least their pre-satellite vans)


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16687964
> 
> 
> Even with a CM1221, the signal meter on WPVI-TV for me is jumping up and down all over the place.



What does it look like today?


WPVI may have rasied power last night.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16687964
> 
> 
> ...I cant believe they dont/didnt realize that transmitting with only 7.56 KW may present a problem...



The reduction from 74.1 KW to 7.56 KW is no greater than the power reduction ratios of most other VHF transmitters. Nevertheless, there are two factors that make the channel 6 situation difficult to deal with.


1) Since channel 6 is VHF lowband, its wavelength is such that you need a dipole nearly seven feet across to receive it efficiently, but it is very impractical to use an indoor antenna that wide,


2) There are lots of FM radio stations at the low end of the dial that will interfere with it when one is closer to the radio tower than to the TV tower, but which any channel 6 TV signal would wipe off the radio dial if they were given more power.


Stations that settled for, or were stuck with, channel 6 knew what they were getting into, but it was determined for their situation that there was no better alternative available.


----------



## kousikb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kousikb* /forum/post/16684895
> 
> 
> @nordl: If you want to try a combo VHF-Hi/UHF antenna, you can try the RCA ANT751. Its not that big and if you are in 2nd floor or higher apartement, you can probably lay it in the floor or probably conceal it under the sofa or bed or worst case mount it to a floor lamp/speaker stand. Also its available in local Wal*mart so you can easily return it too. Atleast its available in Central Jersey. Only problem with this antenna is that UHF gain is nothing to talk about so you may need an amplifier (probably you don't need it because you are in Manhattan.. close to transmitter). I think CM7777 will be an overkill for you. I am also at a similar situation like you where I am not getting no VHF-Hi using my eagle-aspen UHF. I haven't done any of the VHF-Hi mod yet. As of me, I received my CM-3030 today with the CM-3038 preamp. Have to check out how it works at 33 miles from NYC.



As of now, I have mounted the CM3010 with CM3038 indoor at the same place. I am getting all the channels now including all the VHF-Hi. However ABC at channel 7 is heavily pixellated and can't watch now. I am waiting for the flat RG-6 coax coupler, after which I will relocate the antennna in the balcony. Here is the dirty setup:


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16642463
> 
> 
> You're a bit far for the C4's limited H-VHF capability. That usually maxes out around 40-50 miles with good LOS and adequate signal power. Since you're missing LOS and are at around 55-60 miles, you will definitely need a dedicated H-VHF antenna.
> 
> 
> The C5 might be enough, certainly worth a try, especially since it's very compact but of similar performance to a 5-element Yagi. A little birdie told me a small quantity may be shipped by a really big birdie in the next day or so, maybe those will be made available for purchase.
> 
> 
> BTW, how is the C4 doing with the UHF signals coming from Mt Wilson to your location?



Ordered the C5 on Thursday. Set to be delivered this Thursday. I'll let you guys know how it works. I know it will be tough to get those channels (7-13) but if the C5 works like it is supposed to, I should get them.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> 2) There are lots of FM radio stations at the low end of the dial that will interfere with it when one is closer to the radio tower than to the TV tower, but which any channel 6 TV signal would wipe off the radio dial if they were given more power.



Plus the electrical noise that channel 6 especially likes to pick up. But wouldnt you think digital channel 6 with 74.1 KW of power would be less bad than analog channel 6 with 74.1 KW of power for the FM stations ?

Sigh, and to make matters worse for me, there are 2 other channel 6's pointed in the same general direction. I can forsee a tropo condition wiping out WPVI.



> Quote:
> What does it look like today?
> 
> 
> WPVI may have rasied power last night.



Its pouring today, so that wouldnt be a real fair comparison. Its still jumping a lot though.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kousikb* /forum/post/16688137
> 
> 
> As of now, I have mounted the CM3010 with CM3038 indoor at the same place. I am getting all the channels now including all the VHF-Hi. However ABC at channel 7 is heavily pixellated



"dirty setup"? you should see the mess i've made here so far. i'll keep the CM3010 Stealthtenna on my radar as well. looks like a manageable size. how far from ESB are you?


regarding my late night post.... i wasnt receiving PBS at all at that point, but i can watch it now on the amplified UFO. i still think they were off air then, since the weather was no better at those hours than it is now. i hope they are working on improving their signal....












using instructions i found on a PDF uploaded to AVS, i made a "1-bay" bowtie antenna yesterday. the PDF was for a "2-bay VHF-Hi", but i didnt wanna get in too much trouble with assembly, so i made it "1-bay". i got no VHF-Hi with it (maybe due to the cut in the number of bays).


i kept twisting the wire to diff shapes and sizes and i got better results after a while: 40% signal on Ch 13.1 without any amp (the HDTVa and UFO also give me 40%, but only if amp is ON). i'll work on my "design" a bit more later today if weather improves.


----------



## holl_ands

Hopefully the 1-Bay or 2-Bay antennas you refer to were sized for the Hi-VHF band???

The UHF models will be much worse than Rabbit Ears....Which design????

Did it have a reflector screen to attenuate multipath signals coming from the "back"???


If you want to try a simple, easily hidden, DIY Hi-VHF antenna that is a step up from

Rabbit Ears, you can start with a Folded Dipole:
www.imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis 

Perhaps you have some metal (or aluminum foil, can also be flat&thin) laying

around that can be RECYCLED....half-inch size will adequately cover entire Hi-VHF Band.

But it has bi-directional response and would benefit if a simple Reflector rod is added:
http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html 

Could also use some sort of metal (e.g. wire mesh or Al Foil) reflector plate....like a 2-Bay.


For about $10, I just built one from 1/2-inch Type M Copper Tubing to use as my

"standard" 0 dBd gain antenna for on-air comparison tests. [27.5 x 2.0-in center-to-center]

[Still needs Rosin Core Solder (No plumber's Flux) for connections...and brass nuts.]

[Hmm, should polish & varnish....pretty, pretty....the wife isn't happy with it in the L.R.]


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16688657
> 
> 
> Those 1-Bay and 2-Bay antennas are even worse than Rabbit Ears for VHF.
> 
> Even mclapp's M4 SuperSized 4-Bay is limited to just a few contiguous Hi-VHF channels:
> www.imageevent.com/holl_ands/4bays



link's broken.


----------



## holl_ands

Typo...delete the "s":
http://www.imageevent.com/holl_ands/4bay 


I revised the post...I just wanted to make double sure you were using a Hi-VHF rather than a UHF design.

My (no reflector) 4bay webpage is for UHF, where some just happen to work (a little) on Hi-VHF.

And once you add a reflector, it's gonna kill the Hi-VHF capability....unless resized for Hi-VHF.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16688331
> 
> 
> Ordered the C5 on Thursday. Set to be delivered this Thursday. I'll let you guys know how it works. I know it will be tough to get those channels (7-13) but if the C5 works like it is supposed to, I should get them.



A heads up regarding the UVSJ (diplexer) that is included with the C5:


The plastic case will accommodate either a compression- or crimp-fit F-connector but will not allow the lid to close if you're using a cable with a longer-length factory molded connector or an RG11 compression fitting.


Plan accordingly.



About two weeks ago I was able to get my hands one of the first pre-production C5 antennas.


With an antenna height of only about 12 feet and a good test location (empty lot at NEQ of I-44 at Gray Summit, MO at around 8 AM), I was able to see a near-perfect 8VSB waveform on my Sencore 1474 of KRCG-13 (VHF-12 out of Jefferson City) of more than adequate amplitude to be useful. Distance of about 70 miles with little intervening noise generators. Measured value was approximately -30 dBmV with a C/N ratio of 9.5. Very easily usable with a decent low noise preamp or with some more height.


FCC-predicted signal level was -94 dBm, TV fool for the same spot was -98.1 dBm.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16688657
> 
> 
> If you want to try a simple, easily hidden, DIY Hi-VHF antenna that is a step up from
> 
> Rabbit Ears, you can start with a Folded Dipole:
> www.imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis



thanks for the links. i checked the "folded dipole" info but it looks a bit too complicated for me (a layman). the other thing is, i dont have the tools to build something that requires such a degree of precision (dimensions and distances depend heavily on wavelength)....










the link below seems to be the less complicated one.
http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html 

i might give it a try during the week.


has anyone here tried the Winegard HD-1080? based on the number of times i've asked and the zero feedback i've gotten, i guess that's the most obscure antenna on Winegard's catalog.


----------



## IDRick

The 1080 is "okay" for UHF. On high vhf, it has large negative gains especially for ch9 and below. There are much better choices if you need high vhf reception.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IDRick* /forum/post/16689008
> 
> 
> The 1080 is "okay" for UHF. On high vhf, it has large negative gains especially for ch9 and below. There are much better choices if you need high vhf reception.



yes, i need Hi-VHF. preferably, an antenna that can do UHF too, but it doesnt have to be a great UHF antenna because only Hi-VHF is problematic in my area. UHF comes very easy. how would you compare the HD-1080 to the ones below?


RCA ANT751

CM3010 Stealthtenna


----------



## EscapeVelocity

The Winegard HD 1080 isnt particularly good on VHF Hi....certainly no better than Rabbit Ears and probably worse.


----------



## nordloewelabs

still regarding folded dipoles, is the Terk TV55 (bazooka) a folded dipole? it didnt work for VHF or UHF in my apartment.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Helical Coil, (Helix)


----------



## holl_ands

Has anyone seen any specs on either the EZ-HD or the RCA ANT751???

Websites I've checked omit these important little details....


Despite several distractions, I'm still working on the NEC model.

From what I've seen so far, VHF RAW Gain for Ch7 is about 5.5 dB,

rising to 7.5 dB in mid-band and falling some across Ch12-13.


Front-to-Back Ratio is 10+ dB on Ch7, rising to 15+ dB mid-band and

then falling off across Ch12-13 (due to falling forward RAW Gain).


Based on difficulties with YA-1713 model, I expected SWR to be

difficult to model accurately....EZ-HD is no different....maybe it's

a 300-ohm antenna, but I'm seeing much less at VHF freqs....

[Still gotta add the stubs to run UHF curves...]


People should pay close attention to how these "twins" perform on Ch12 & 13....

I hope it's because of a NEC modeling shortcoming.....like the YA-1713 model,

which has a very similar Log-Yagi VHF design....


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16689380
> 
> 
> Has anyone seen any specs on either the EZ-HD or the RCA ANT751???



here's some info gathered from another post:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *schu132* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Sent an email to the site selling the ez-hd antenna and asked about vhf high gain. He replied "The EZ-HD has an average of 7.5 dB gain on VHF. To combine a VHF and UHF use a VHF/UHF signal coupler. This will result in much less signal loss." Does that sound about right? solidsignal has the AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 specs at "Gain VHF: 6.9 dB". Also What's the difference between UVSJ diplexer and a VHF/UHF signal coupler?


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16689044
> 
> 
> yes, i need Hi-VHF. preferably, an antenna that can do UHF too, but it doesnt have to be a great UHF antenna because only Hi-VHF is problematic in my area. UHF comes very easy. how would you compare the HD-1080 to the ones below?
> 
> 
> RCA ANT751
> 
> CM3010 Stealthtenna



I have personal experience with the EZ HD, similar to ANT751. It works very well for high vhf in my area (ch 8, 9, and 10). It should be noted that we have strong vhf signals (NM's from tvfool were between 50 and 55 dB). The EZ HD or Ant751 would **easily** beat the HD-1080 for high vhf.


Good luck!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Ive got the box and whatever manual or spec sheet manual came with it at home, Ill see if there is any information.


Ive been going with the Winegard 7000R specs as comparable. Here you can see the slight drop off at Channel 13 and also a lower Channel 14, gain spec rising up through the upper UHF television band. The UHF section is nearly identical so I think those specs are probably comparable.....its likely that the RCA ANT751 and EZ HD have slightly better VHF Hi performance....as your modeling would suggest, hollands.

http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewit...p~HD-7000R.htm


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IDRick* /forum/post/16689609
> 
> 
> The EZ HD or Ant751 would **easily** beat the HD-1080 for high vhf.



does it work well for UHF too?

did you place indoors or outdoors? i can only place antennas indoors.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16689654
> 
> 
> does it work well for UHF too?
> 
> did you place indoors or outdoors? i can only place antennas indoors.



Its slightly inferior to the Silver Sensor unamped on UHF, especially on the extreme low end of the UHF television band.


It matches the performance of the "Silver Sensor on UHF" in the VHF Hi band, about 6db gain.


It might be the best solution for you.


The StealthTenna is an interesting choice.....and more aesthetically pleasing. Mount it on the ceiling and call it sculpture for you snooty NY friends.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16689682
> 
> 
> The StealthTenna is an interesting choice.....and more aesthetically pleasing. Mount it on the ceiling and call it sculpture for you snooty NY friends.



i would if i had any drilling skills whatsoever!









i'm torn between the ANT751 and the CM3010....


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16689654
> 
> 
> does it work well for UHF too?
> 
> did you place indoors or outdoors? i can only place antennas indoors.



It performs reasonably well on UHF. It is better for an urban/suburban environment. No way does it have the 75 mile range claimed by the distributor... Yes, it could work for you indoors, but really depends on your situation. Have you posted your tvfool results? It is an outdoor antenna and not very visually appealing (particularly indoors).


In my case, there was only a small improvement going from the attic to the roof. Margin to dropout increased by 3 to 5 dB, depending on the channel. Which is a nice boost but not the 13 dB occasionally mentioned on this forum.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16689703
> 
> 
> i would if i had any drilling skills whatsoever!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i'm torn between the ANT751 and the CM3010....




Maybe the Discone (aka woman magnet) would really blow your snooty friends away.....post industrialist meso modernist art, relaying the technologization of man and his dystopian dissassociation with his soul/humanity, the breaking of dualist reality into moral and cultural relativism. Or some shennanigans like that.


----------



## hphase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16682224
> 
> 
> Many stations are upgrading to circular polarization (both Horiz & Vertical) which
> 
> means 45-degree antenna has a chance of receiving one, the other or both.
> 
> FCC allows stations to DOUBLE their total power if circular polarization....it's
> 
> effectively two separate antennas driven by two separate transmitters.....
> 
> EACH at the authorized ERP level if it were strictly horizontally polarized
> 
> [and I'm sure someone will point out exceptions to this general "rule"...]



Stations can add a vertically-polarized component to their signal as long as the ERP in the vertical polarization does not exceed the licensed ERP in the horizontal polarization. This allows better reception by another linearly polarized antenna with a random orienation (vertical, horizontal, or anything in between.) Adding an equal vertical component requires a doubling of transmitter power, and also doubles the power bill, too.


But, for true circular polarization, there has to be a 90 degree phase shift applied to the vertical component. Circular polarization was originally introduced into analog TV broadcasting to help reduce ghosts. This is because the sense of circular polarization (left- or right-hand) is reversed when the signal reflects off of a building or other obstruction. A circularly polarized antenna will not pick up the refected signal because its polarization is opposite to what it was designed to receive.


When stations add a vertical component to their horizontal component, but don't add the phase shift, that would probably be called "dual polarization," not circular. If the vertical component isn't equal to the horizontal, that would be called elliptical polarization.


----------



## nordloewelabs

wrong info. disregard this post.


----------



## kinemax




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pjc123* /forum/post/16660854
> 
> 
> So, I bought an Antennas Direct DB4 antenna a while back, threw it up in the attic attached to a piece of pvc pipe and aligned it using the signal bars on my tv. Quick......Done. I was getting 8 - 10 bars out of 10 on all UHF digital channels so I was really happy. That combined with NetFlix via a Roku box and goodbye cable. Then the DTV June 12th transition occurred and three channels moved to the upper VHF band (RF channels 7, 11 and 13)... I now get these channels intermittently. So, I am thinking of either adding a small cheap upper VHF antenna (AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 seems highly recommended) or just throwing out the DB4 and putting up something like a Winegard HD7694P. What is the better choice, and is either one acceptable, considering that I want to keep it in the attic for various reasons, and I am trying not to get something that is overkill...



I am in Central NJ (about 35 miles from NYC) and in the same boat: I can't get 13, while 7 & 11 come and go. I tried the DB4-widening (with rod-extension) method suggested by *arbie* without success. Is augmentation with a Y5-7-13 sufficient or do I need something better like a Y10-7-13 or a YA-1713? Or should I just go for a HD769x and if so which one?


TIA.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is an interesting antenna...


Terk TV-35












> Quote:
> • Due to the compact and durable design, the TERK TV35 will outlast most traditional yagi antennas. No tools required, the TV35 includes everything needed to make it an easy to install antenna.
> 
> • Dimensions: 76 7/8” W x 38 1/32” L
> 
> • Weight: 2.65lbs.
> 
> • Element Type: 10 Elements
> 
> • Operational Bandwidth: 54-806MHz
> 
> • Gain VHF: 0-4dB
> 
> • Gain UHF: 2.5-8.5dB
> 
> • Front-to-Back Ratio: 12dB (VHF), 15dB (UHF


----------



## pjc123




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kinemax* /forum/post/16690077
> 
> 
> I am in Central NJ (about 35 miles from NYC) and in the same boat: I can't get 13, while 7 & 11 come and go. I tried the DB4-widening (with rod-extension) method suggested by *arbie* without success. Is augmentation with a Y5-7-13 sufficient or do I need something better like a Y10-7-13 or a YA-1713? Or should I just go for a HD769x and if so which one?
> 
> 
> TIA.



Thanks for trying the rod extension by the way, since I just don't have the time to fool with it. As a side note, I emailed the following to Winegard with their response attatched:


I need some pre-sales technical help.


I currently have an Antennas Direct DB4 antenna in my attic that works very well (9 to 10 bars out of 10 using my TV's signal meter on all UHF channels). However, New York City just switched 3 stations to the High VHF band after the June 12th transition, so now these stations intermittently come in. So I could just get a VHF only antenna and combine them, but probably just write it off as a loss and just buy a new single VHF/UHF antenna.


Here is my situation:

I need color code yellow and red.

I have 3 High VHF stations (7, 11, and 13)

The rest of the stations are UHF

The mileage is 22 for all the stations.

There are 6 degrees between all broadcasting towers.

MOST IMPORTANTLY I will be installing this in an attic because it is only temporary (I will eventually be moving), so I want to insure I have enough gain to compensate for any loss. The roof material is regular asphalt shingles and I am in a residential area with all ranch style homes and no tall buildings, just a few trees.


I was looking at the HD7694P, but will it compensate for the attic and should I "kick it up a notch"? Also, if I went with a separate VHF antenna instead, what would you recommend? What is the recommend combiner as well?


Thanks



This was the response:


I would suggest the HD7696P antenna to be sure we have enough signal. If you wish to add a VHF antenna then the model YA-1713 would your antenna choice. You will need to find a UHF/ VHF combiner to combine the VHF antenna and UHF antenna with minimum amount of loss.


I also emailed Antennacraft about their Y5-7-13, but never received a response. I like the Antennacraft because it is a reasonable size like the DB4. However, I am reading bad things about Antennacrafts quality from various forums, but in an attic I could care less about wear and tear from the elements.


I am still waiting to hear from someone who has used a specific brand and model with good results, especially in the Central NJ area, before I buy yet another antenna that does not work. I will post anything that I find out.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

 Wade UHF Parabolic antennas pdf 


Wade Helical (Helix) UHF Antenna pdf


----------



## systems2000

Since I get huge amounts of Co-Channel, Adjacent Channel, & Multi-Path interference, I've been thinking of the garbage can solution, but I think the screen solution would be more elegent.


Does anyone know if that would eliminate the problem of using dissimilar antennas causing interference with each other when using a combiner? I'd like to tie several single channel yagi's together (ie. 47 @ 87°, 8 @ 218°, & 32 @ 322° (maybe more)).


I've also been thinking about experimenting with a Primestar dish and retro-fitting it for terrestrial DTV reception. I believe the dish is made of carbon resin and should make for a fine reflector.










On another note, what's the beamwidth of the YA-1713?


----------



## finlay648




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16687782
> 
> 
> I'd look at the weakest station that you want to receive. Next, using tvfool, try swapping the two antennas. I'd install the antennas in whichever position gave you the most margin on the weakest station.



I have beenusing 2 CM4228s stacked vertically as my antenna pre-transition but post-transition 9, 11 and 13 went to HI-VHF and I lost reception of 9 and 11. I purchased a YA-1713 to boost reception for 9 and 11. I tried mounting the YA-1713 below the CM4228s (relatively easy to do) but the results were marginally better (9 was better but 11 was about the same). I then lowered the 4228s by a foot and installed the 1713 at the top of the mast with much improved results.


I suppose this means that there is horizontal banding from diffraction and the first location was in a null while the second location was not. I didn't notice any change in the reception of the UHF channels but this makes me wonder if the UHF antennas may be partially in a null. I'm assuming that the size of the bands and their location vary with frequency. Given that the stacked 4228s are about 6' tall, is it likely that there are multiple higher frequency bands spanning the 4228s or am I completely misunderstanding how this works?


I'm thinking that I probably have to redo this setup since seasonal changes will negatively impact it and I'm wondering what are the factors that impact reception the most.


My tvfool info is:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...618ac2e3f7e60d 


BTW while looking at the tvfool results for different antnna heights I noticed that reception seemed to get poorer as the height increased above 20' (e.g. to 30' or 40'). That seems counter to what I expected.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> This was the response:
> 
> 
> I would suggest the HD7696P antenna to be sure we have enough signal. If you wish to add a VHF antenna then the model YA-1713 would your antenna choice. You will need to find a UHF/ VHF combiner to combine the VHF antenna and UHF antenna with minimum amount of loss.



Anyone find it ironic that Winegard's tech support suggested adding a big HVHF antenna to one of their own antennas that ALREADY HAS HVHF??? Especially one that has almost as much HVHF gain as doe the YA1713...



The 7694 should do fine. Worst case, go to the 7695.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *finlay648* /forum/post/16691833
> 
> 
> ...I then lowered the 4228s by a foot and installed the 1713 at the top of the mast with much improved results.
> 
> 
> I suppose this means that there is horizontal banding from diffraction and the first location was in a null while the second location was not.....I'm assuming that the size of the bands and their location vary with frequency.



Correct, the bands vary by frequency. VHF _may_ require moving the antenna farther than UHF to find a hot spot.


Interesting article on fringe reception .


----------



## PA_MainyYak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16687065
> 
> 
> I need recs for this situation. Friend of mines, place in the mountains of North Carolina, near Mt. Mitchell.
> 
> 
> Old Mill house is metal sheathed.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7f1480d77d8eb6
> 
> 
> 
> Please help!



You might try fine tuning your TV Fool results by using GPS coordinates (easily obtainable thought Google Earth or similar mapping programs). And as mentioned elsewhere, finding a way to raise the antenna higher. At that, reception at the cabin will remain a significant challenge.


----------



## kinemax




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pjc123* /forum/post/16691202
> 
> 
> Thanks for trying the rod extension by the way, since I just don't have the time to fool with it.
> 
> ...



I am not sure I have done the rod-extension method justice, as I have only tried using coat-hanger wires as the extended rods. It seemed to yield a slight increase in signal strength but not enough to form a proper video image, so perhaps some better rod materials might make a critical difference.


> Quote:
> I am still waiting to hear from someone who has used a specific brand and model with good results, especially in the Central NJ area, before I buy yet another antenna that does not work. I will post anything that I find out.



I just realized that both the 7-13 and 7-69 antenna types would leave out the FM band which I also need, hence I am now looking at the HD708x series (most likely the 7080 since the 7082 or 7084 are probably too big to get in my attic). I also found out that Radio Shack has a VU-90XR for about $65; I am tempted to try it since their VU-110XR which I bought over 15 years ago is doing a wonderful job pulling in all three stations for my other TV on the first floor.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kinemax* /forum/post/16692901
> 
> 
> ...their VU-110XR which I bought over 15 years ago is doing a wonderful job pulling in all three stations for my other TV on the first floor.



Would it be possible to just split the feed from that antenna to the other TV?


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kousikb* /forum/post/16684895
> 
> 
> As of me, I received my CM-3030 today with the CM-3038 preamp. Have to check out how it works at 33 miles from NYC.



let us know your impressions after you try them.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16688930
> 
> 
> A heads up regarding the UVSJ (diplexer) that is included with the C5:
> 
> 
> The plastic case will accommodate either a compression- or crimp-fit F-connector but will not allow the lid to close if you're using a cable with a longer-length factory molded connector or an RG11 compression fitting.
> 
> 
> Plan accordingly.
> 
> 
> 
> About two weeks ago I was able to get my hands one of the first pre-production C5 antennas.
> 
> 
> With an antenna height of only about 12 feet and a good test location (empty lot at NEQ of I-44 at Gray Summit, MO at around 8 AM), I was able to see a near-perfect 8VSB waveform on my Sencore 1474 of KRCG-13 (VHF-12 out of Jefferson City) of more than adequate amplitude to be useful. Distance of about 70 miles with little intervening noise generators. Measured value was approximately -30 dBmV with a C/N ratio of 9.5. Very easily usable with a decent low noise preamp or with some more height.
> 
> 
> FCC-predicted signal level was -94 dBm, TV fool for the same spot was -98.1 dBm.




I will be feeding the C4 and the C5 into my Channelmaster 7777. Do you think this is a good idea instead of the included uhf/vhf combiner? So after your test, do you think I will have good luck for 7, 9, 11 and 13 at my area?

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...618a760b64bf73 


I get great UHF with the C4 right now in my area and the VHF are the same distance and degrees.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16688097
> 
> 
> What does it look like today?
> 
> 
> WPVI may have rasied power last night.



Yeah, it was on their 6 oclock news tonight. They raised it from 7.56 KW to 30.2 KW, 400% the power of 6/13/09 and about 40% of their old analog power. My signal meter still jumps more on channel 6 than on any other channel, going from 90-95% to 50-60% and then quickly back up again. (the rest of the channels may jump 10-15% max) Not sure whats up with that, but at least the signal is at a higher level and the picture doesnt cut in/out. Keep in mind, I have a fairly high gain vhf antenna that a lot in this area dont.


I also checked out 87.7 FM in the car, where I used to pick up the WPVI-TV channel 6 audio. Its very quiet, exactly like any other no station area. As far as I can tell, FM reception on the lower end of the dial hasnt gotten any better or worse since 6/12/09. If they were to go back up to their old analog level of 74.1 KW with digital, I cant see where that would be any worse for the FM stations.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16693397
> 
> 
> I will be feeding the C4 and the C5 into my Channelmaster 7777. Do you think this is a good idea instead of the included uhf/vhf combiner? So after your test, do you think I will have good luck for 7, 9, 11 and 13 at my area?
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...618a760b64bf73
> 
> 
> I get great UHF with the C4 right now in my area and the VHF are the same distance and degrees.




Using the separate inputs of your 7777 is the best way to go. Don't forget to flip the necessary switch.


Those TVfool numbers are much better (about 20 dB) than where I tested a couple of weeks ago. I'd expect pretty good results.


----------



## hphase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16695210
> 
> 
> If they were to go back up to their old analog level of 74.1 KW with digital, I cant see where that would be any worse for the FM stations.



You have to understand how the digital spectrum is different from the analog spectrum. The digital signal fills the channel wall-to-wall, but analog has distinct peaks. One at the visual carrier, another smaller one at the chroma subcarrier, and another at the aural carrier. Of these, the closest to the FM band is the aural carrier. The rest of the channel is pretty empty.


There is no way they could put 74 kW digital through their existing analog transmission plant, so that will never happen. The digital peaks would be way too high. I wonder how much they increased their digital power, if at all.


----------



## holl_ands

Frequently, power increases are accomplished by "simply" swapping in a

higher gain antenna, which means stacking more elements vertically to

narrow down the elevation pattern:
http://www.dielectric.com/broadcast/...TF-batwing.pdf


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hphase* /forum/post/16695543
> 
> 
> There is no way they could put 74 kW digital through their existing analog transmission plant, so that will never happen. I wonder how much they increased their digital power, if at all.



WPVI's average DTV power is now 30.2 KW. The peak to average ratio is just over 4, so the peak power is 120 KW+. The analog power was measured as 74 KW peak. The analog antenna may be able to handle even more digital power.


WPVI's antenna is a 6 bay. Yes, you can use more antenna gain, but the close-in viewers will actually get less signal. 6 antenna bays is about the best compromise.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16695467
> 
> 
> Using the separate inputs of your 7777 is the best way to go. Don't forget to flip the necessary switch.
> 
> 
> Those TVfool numbers are much better (about 20 dB) than where I tested a couple of weeks ago. I'd expect pretty good results.



Thanks! I did switch the switches in preparation for the C5. My antenna is on my balcony so it is very easy to get to. Thanks for all the help and info. You provide a great (and free) service for all of us!


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16673684
> 
> 
> Anyone know where I can get bulk quantities of the Channel Master 3072's and 3075's?



I would contact Channel Master here and inquire about one of their distributors.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/16692570
> 
> 
> Correct, the bands vary by frequency. VHF _may_ require moving the antenna farther than UHF to find a hot spot.
> 
> 
> Interesting article on fringe reception .



I've also noticed the same issue with VHF & UHF not being on the same heading for stations that are knife-edge reception. D.C. VHF comes in better on a heading that is North of the UHF heading. Since WJZ-DT is so strong for me, I can't confirm the same for Baltimore.


I especially like the last bit of information. It reinforces what I've been discovering about peoples attitude of good reception DTV. Bye, bye cbale and satellite.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Since WJZ-DT is so strong for me, I can't confirm the same for Baltimore.



Hows WBAL channel 11 for you ?



> Quote:
> WPVI's average DTV power is now 30.2 KW.



Yeah, the news footage showed the FCC guys measuring signal levels all over the place. I cant believe they didnt do that a year ago, heh. Ironically, they have an TV ad "6 ABC-HD, The First to Go High Definition in the Delaware Valley".


From the tidbits Ive gathered, it seems the FCC in the early days of TV in the 1940s, licensed stations initially with too much power and then eventually cut back. It seems to me, from a viewers stand point, thats a better strategy than starting with too little power and then adding on.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

1957


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16693397
> 
> 
> I will be feeding the C4 and the C5 into my Channelmaster 7777. Do you think this is a good idea instead of the included uhf/vhf combiner?


_If_ you use the 7777, yes. Use the built-in V/U inputs option, instead of a separate V/U combiner. Open the 7777's case and flip the internal "combined-separate" input switch to "*separate*."



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16695210
> 
> 
> Yeah, it was on their 6 oclock news tonight. They raised it from 7.56 KW to 30.2 KW, 400% the power of 6/13/09 and about 40% of their old analog power. My signal meter still jumps more on channel 6 than on any other channel, going from 90-95% to 50-60% and then quickly back up again. (the rest of the channels may jump 10-15% max) Not sure whats up with that



FM interference (?). Do you have an FM trap on your TV antenna?


----------



## Don F.

I have on order a ClearStream C4. I am trying to improve my vhf reception over my current cm 4228. My cm preamp only has a 300 ohm input. Is there a way around the C4's transformer, if I should want to use the preamp? Thanks for any help..


----------



## RickGA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16696899
> 
> 
> 1957



WOW, that antenna in the foreground is the exact type we had on the roof of our house, when I was a kid in the 1960's!!


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don F.* /forum/post/16697932
> 
> 
> I have on order a ClearStream C4. I am trying to improve my vhf reception over my current cm 4228. My cm preamp only has a 300 ohm input. Is there a way around the C4's transformer, if I should want to use the preamp? Thanks for any help..



This probably won't answer your question but I bought the C4 a couple of months ago because I knew some of my channels were moving to the High VHF side. I thought this antenna would work but it doesn't. It is a great UHF antenna. That is why I went with the C5 because it is supposed to be equivalent to a 5 element Yagi. I am also 57 miles away. I heard if I was closer (like within 40 miles), it would probably work (the C4).


----------



## Don F.

Sorry to hear that. My targets are about 65 miles away, as are the uhf stations.

The 4228 has no problem with uhf, but vhf is a problem. Thanks for the info..


----------



## hphase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16696650
> 
> 
> Ironically, they have an TV ad "6 ABC-HD, The First to Go High Definition in the Delaware Valley".



Yep, WPVI was on the air on November 1, 1998 on channel 64. You could even pick them up in New York City. They must have beaten KYW, which would have been their only competition in the DTV race.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16695801
> 
> 
> WPVI's average DTV power is now 30.2 KW. The peak to average ratio is just over 4, so the peak power is 120 KW+. The analog power was measured as 74 KW peak. The analog antenna may be able to handle even more digital power.



Depending on how much the WPVI transmission plant was over-designed, you might already need some clipping in the transmitter. You wouldn't want arcing in the transmission line or antenna. The sneaky little problem with 8-VSB, even with a "little" clipping, is that clipping causes frequency "splatter" and also increases the error vector magnitude. This means that, unlike analog transmissions, peak limiting doesn't just make your signal look bad. It actually reduces the area that can sucessfully decode the signal. That translates directly to reduced coverage, something that the power increase was hoped to fix...


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don F.* /forum/post/16698222
> 
> 
> Sorry to hear that. My targets are about 65 miles away, as are the uhf stations.
> 
> The 4228 has no problem with uhf, but vhf is a problem. Thanks for the info..



I think you are going to have problems with the VHF at 65 miles away with the C4.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> FM interference (?). Do you have an FM trap on your TV antenna?



Yep, the FM trap on my CM0264 is "IN". I dont think its FM interference causing the large jumps in the signal meter. Ill have to get a stop watch and time the jump pattern. (there seems to be a pattern, but not quite an even pattern) Its a puzzler, but WPVI is still tweaking, so Ill wait until theyre all done.


----------



## arxaw

Low VHF is no place for DTV to be.


----------



## arbie




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kinemax* /forum/post/16682496
> 
> 
> For extension with rods, what type of materials did you use or would suggest for use as the extended rods and for mounting them?
> 
> 
> TIA.



I salvaged my rods (3/16" diameter aluminum) from an old CushCraft circularly polarized yagi. In another forum, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=2709 , 300ohm suggested green plastic covered garden stakes as a cheap source of metal rods. For attachment, I used U-bolts, although for experimenting, you could even use UV tie wraps. Bottomline: don't spend more than the cost of a new antenna...


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16691744
> 
> 
> On another note, what's the beamwidth of the YA-1713?



W-G specs for YA-1713:
http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload/ya-1713.pdf 

and other W-G antennas:
http://www.winegard.com/offair/antenna_list.php 


NEC Sim results (such as they are) for YA-1713:
www.imageevent.com/holl_ands/wgya1713 

I think Gain and F/B results are believable....SWR (& Net Gain) not so much....


----------



## hphase

Sorry to potentially hijack this thread, but all those plots made my head spin. I'm not too concerned about gain, but F/B ratio is very important for me, especially on channels 11 and 13.


What is a believable F/B number to expect for a YA-1713? I'm still tempted to build K6STI's 5-element Yagi, primarily for its F/B ratio. Should I build or buy?


Thanks!


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hphase* /forum/post/16698559
> 
> 
> Yep, WPVI was on the air on November 1, 1998 on channel 64. You could even pick them up in New York City. They must have beaten KYW, which would have been their only competition in the DTV race.
> 
> 
> 
> Depending on how much the WPVI transmission plant was over-designed, you might already need some clipping in the transmitter. You wouldn't want arcing in the transmission line or antenna. The sneaky little problem with 8-VSB, even with a "little" clipping, is that clipping causes frequency "splatter" and also increases the error vector magnitude. This means that, unlike analog transmissions, peak limiting doesn't just make your signal look bad. It actually reduces the area that can sucessfully decode the signal. That translates directly to reduced coverage, something that the power increase was hoped to fix...



It seems that WPVI built a facility capable of 30 KW.


The WPVI digital transmitter is brand new. If it had too much peak clipping would cause a low signal to noise ratio and high EVM. That error would be obvious.


Arcing in the antenna would trip the SWR overload sensor.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16698663
> 
> 
> I think you are going to have problems with the VHF at 65 miles away with the C4.



That's an understatement.....



UHF at that distance with good signal path, yes.


Any VHF-high at 65 miles, probably not. Figure 40-45 miles best case.


VHF-LO, forget it.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/16699426
> 
> 
> Low VHF is no place for DTV to be.



Unfortunately for the viewers so afflicted, they're stuck with it unless the viewers or advertisers can convince station management to get their head out of their backside.


----------



## neilkaz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hphase* /forum/post/16700680
> 
> 
> Sorry to potentially hijack this thread, but all those plots made my head spin. I'm not too concerned about gain, but F/B ratio is very important for me, especially on channels 11 and 13.
> 
> 
> What is a believable F/B number to expect for a YA-1713? I'm still tempted to build K6STI's 5-element Yagi, primarily for its F/B ratio. Should I build or buy?
> 
> 
> Thanks!



Here's Winegard's specs and measured patterns. http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/ya1713.pdf 


This antenna has been around for at least 20 years(likely longer) as it is in catalogs that I used to have that were at least that old. I have never used this antenna so I cannot say what real life performance is.


I have Ken Nist's model loaded into EZNEC here, not yet being comfortable enough with 4nec2 to use it.


Modelled F/B is as follows from chan 11-13


198...21.4 dB with F/R being about 18.6 dB

201...36.3 dB with F/R being about 20 dB

204...19.2 dB with F/R same

207...12.4 db with F/R same

210...8.9 dB with F/R same

213...8.5 dB with F/R same

216...16 dB with F/R 11.8 dB


This seems to show that this is a considerably better antenna for 11 then 13, which is consistant with what I recall reading about it.


Re: the lousy modelled impedance for the YA-1713, especially at the very high end. My modelling shows the same thing, but at least for freqs closer to band center, one cannot believe that Winegard has been selling this antenna for decades with such poor SWR, although one can believe that performance suffers somewhat at band edge chan 13.


When I change the length of the short element 3 from 19.4" to 28", the antenna becomed quite a good match to 75 ohms (although it gets worse for chan 13). However, I assume the Winegards balun is doing something to compensate for the reactance causing mismatch in the model (assuming that the model is perfectly reflecting real life (I doubt it for impedance here).


Ken Nist has stated that adding directors helps. You could add directors by taking then from another 1713 (40 bucks each) or by simply adding the end section (gaining 3 more directors (although likely not optimally spaced)) from another 1713. I've done some modelling of this. Guys with the 4nec2 optimizer may be able to tell you how to easily improve F/B for 13 without messing up impedance very much.


If good F/B is a must, you may want to stagger stack two of them. Here's the basic idea http://www.anarc.org/wtfda/stagger.pdf 


I did this with 2 Antennacraft FM13's (F/B was not that good on higher FM on a single factory model as observed by me then and also modelled by K6STI) and clearly improved F/B. This technique also improved F/B when I combined my two custom channel 12 Yagis (although they had good F/B to begin with).


If stagger stacking, I'd put the lower antenna ahead of the upper. This is less moment arm for the rotor. This also means that elevation beam will be steered a couple degrees towards the ground (no big deal) and more importantly a major side lobe goes up into the air rather than towards the ground where it might pick up ground bounce.


More importantly, and not realized by me a decade ago when I did much FM and TV antenna stuff here, I'd connect the two staggered antenna 180 degrees out of phase and then add 90 degrees phasing to the other one than shown in the model. This should create a much more broadbanded stagger stack.


Anyhow...enough rambling. I'd get the YA-1713 if I were you, and to the antenna guru's here, lets see if we can improve it somewhat.


EDIT: I'll correct myself that after further reading I've seen reports that the YA-1713 is fine on 13 in real life.


.. neilkaz ..


----------



## kinemax




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/16693005
> 
> 
> Would it be possible to just split the feed from that antenna to the other TV?



My VU-110XR (located in the attic) currently has its signals amplified by a CM-7777 to drive 50+ ft of cable to the TV (on the first floor). Where should I insert the splitter: before or after the preamp?


----------



## arxaw

If using a standard splitter, put it on the "Out to TV" side of the 7777 preamp's power supply.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/16669912
> 
> 
> Which antenna is better for 12 & 13:
> 
> 
> YA-1713
> 
> Y10-7-13



I ended up getting another YA-1713, but I just remembered that there was another antenna that was once available, though not through retail outlets, the Funke PSP 1922:

http://www.funke.nl/library/1190_098..._790500985.pdf 


I remember that MAX HD/Midwest Dxer had these, but that the last one sold a while ago.


With so many having problems with upper VHF, it would be nice to have these available again. Though, granted, many having problems are trying to use rabbit ears.


Still, I'm not sure I could manage a 13' antenna in the attic.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Great prices on Antennacraft UHF TV parabolics on the auction site.











Antennacraft P-5 5 Foot Parabolic UHF Antenna Buy it Now $79, starting price $69, very reasonable shipping. 2 available.


Antennacraft P-7 7 Foot Parabolic UHF Antenna Buy it Now $129 plus shipping.


I am not affiliated with the seller.


----------



## willscary

I bought the last two Funke antennas that were new in package. I believe Garrett bought the last actual unit that had been opened. Midwest DXer was very reasonable. It is too bad that he could not have gotten a few more for others, as I am sure they would be hot sellers now with the digital VHF-hi problems some people are experiencing.


The Funke has about twice the gain of the Winegard from 7, 9 and 11, and seems to be even better on channel 13. It is a monster in length, but it is not very wide and is quite lightweight.


I truly wish someone could have modeled one of these. they are a fantastic VHF highband antenna.


Bill


----------



## systems2000

I acquired this today. I've never seen one before. Anyone know what it is?


----------



## dewster1977




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16702814
> 
> 
> I acquired this today. I've never seen one before. Anyone know what it is?



Don't know what it is I have seen two of those before, there use to be one on 494 just south of the Mason-Dixon line, I thin kthe other was around Frederick, don't know if either are still there. Appears to be for UHF. Be interesting to see how well it works.


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16702814
> 
> 
> I acquired this today. I've never seen one before. Anyone know what it is?



give the story on the acquisition


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> It seems that WPVI built a facility capable of 30 KW.



Hmm, I wonder if they got a new antenna and new antenna location too. It seems extreme signal meter jumping could be a sign of multipath, FWIR. I didnt have any ghosts on WPVI-TV channel 6 analog, but if the antenna / location has changed for digital, who knows ?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I've never seen one before. Anyone know what it is?



Ive seen a few of those. (Jerrold as the manuf comes to mind, but I could be wrong) Its a horizontally stacked vee boom uhf lpda antenna from the early 1970's. (I actually built something similar back then out of copper wire. IIRC, results werent that impressive, and the thinking back then was that the vees should be on a 30 - 60 degree angle for uhf. The plans for the wire version may have even been in an issue of Pop Electronics ??) As you can tell from the really small front elements, that antenna was designed for the old ch 14 - 83 uhf band.


It looks like its in good shape. I would clean the connections and give it a try.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dewster1977* /forum/post/16703120
> 
> 
> Don't know what it is I have seen two of those before, there use to be one on 494 just south of the Mason-Dixon line, I thin kthe other was around Frederick, don't know if either are still there. Appears to be for UHF. Be interesting to see how well it works.



I acquired it from a house that was auctioned off and the new owners wanted the tower and all taken away. The house is located South of Mercersburg, just below the State Line. I don't have time at the moment, but I'll tell all later.


----------



## nordloewelabs

where i live (NYC), i get UHF stations *very* well, but Hi-VHF reception is really bad. today i'll order the CM 3010 StealthTenna for use indoors. i want an amp too and i wonder if i should go with:


a) CM3038 (15dB gain. designed for StealthTenna)

b) CM7777 (big favourite on AVForums)


suggestions?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16702814
> 
> 
> I acquired this today. I've never seen one before. Anyone know what it is?



That's a *Quad ZIG-ZAG Log Periodic Array* with Horiz. (only) Polarization,

used to feed a big Parabolic Dish, although they can also be used without the Dish:
http://www.ece.illinois.edu/about/hi.../photos.html#1 
http://astro.berkeley.edu/~greg/log_periodic_feed.pdf 
http://astro.berkeley.edu/~greg/ieee5.pdf 
http://lea.hamradio.si/~s57uuu/mischam/logp110.pdf 


Measure width (center-to-center) at front and back to determine half-wave lengths

and hence operating range:
http://www.onlineconversion.com/freq...wavelength.htm 


Welcome to the wonderful world of Zig-Zags....speaking of which.....


----------



## holl_ands

*HI-VHF ZIG-ZAG LPA & FOLDED DIPOLE--Actual antennas, not just some models:*


We finished installing 14-Element Zig-Zag Log Periodic Antenna in my son's attic (70-mi fm L.A.).

Started with STACKED configuration due to space, but will change to WEDGE (+1-2 dB).

I posted photos showing the simple build and install process...


Ch7 and Ch9 are OK but most of L.A. is waiting for Ch11 & Ch13 to "fix" their current problems.

He is only 2.7 miles from local low power Ch12, so it's gonna be dicey....stay tuned:

See photos in new update: http://www.imageevent.com/holl_ands/zigzaglpa 

We fine tuned the antenna rotation to minimize Ch12 signal (20 dB null?), but to

obtain a weak enough signal, I had to insert about 30 dB of attenuation....after

bypassing Preamp.

We have a lot more work yet to do....install Risers for WEDGE, relocate up a little,

try it without a Preamp.....but mostly wait for Ch11 & Ch13 to fix THEIR problems.


While at his house, I had him do some 1/2-in pipe brazing for a FULL-BAND Hi-VHF Folded Dipole.

I'm going to use it as a "calibrated" 0 dBd Hi-VHF antenna for comparisons (no, not in his attic):

See photos in new update: http://www.imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *willscary* /forum/post/16702689
> 
> 
> I bought the last two Funke antennas that were new in package. I believe Garrett bought the last actual unit that had been opened. Midwest DXer was very reasonable. It is too bad that he could not have gotten a few more for others, as I am sure they would be hot sellers now with the digital VHF-hi problems some people are experiencing.
> 
> 
> The Funke has about twice the gain of the Winegard from 7, 9 and 11, and seems to be even better on channel 13. It is a monster in length, but it is not very wide and is quite lightweight.
> 
> 
> I truly wish someone could have modeled one of these. they are a fantastic VHF highband antenna.
> 
> 
> Bill



Ya, I got the absolute last one. It is aimed at WKBT (RF channel 8) right now, the Winegard YA-1713 was getting dropouts and the Funke keeps a good lock on WKBT. (I have strong signal, but I am aimed right over a 91.7Mhz and 97.5Mhz 100kW FMs, which I can see at 6.3miles from the place where the Funke is mounted on the tower. Even with the FM trap on, I think I am fighting a bit of FM intermod from the harmonics and just SUPER strong signal from the FMs...


----------



## gjvrieze




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/16702581
> 
> 
> I ended up getting another YA-1713, but I just remembered that there was another antenna that was once available, though not through retail outlets, the Funke PSP 1922:
> 
> http://www.funke.nl/library/1190_098..._790500985.pdf
> 
> 
> I remember that MAX HD/Midwest Dxer had these, but that the last one sold a while ago.
> 
> 
> With so many having problems with upper VHF, it would be nice to have these available again. Though, granted, many having problems are trying to use rabbit ears.
> 
> 
> Still, I'm not sure I could manage a 13' antenna in the attic.



It is a nice antenna. A little long though! (it is great outdoors though) It was little funke (pun intended) getting it to the top of my tower, it was pretty windy the day I did it, luckily, I had my dad stabilizing it with a lead line as it came up in the air. Very light weight, whoever designed it, did a great job!


----------



## nordloewelabs

*@holl_ands*: i made 3 Folded Dipoles of different sizes this weekend. all made of AWG 12. none did much for my situation.







is the use of copper pipes a requirement for this kind of antenna?


btw, using K7MEM's calculator, i always get an impedance of 288 ohms. is that a major problem?


Edit: what about the spacing? if the antenna is made of a single material (AWG 12 wire), the spacing can be any, right? i used 1 inch spacing in all 3 i made.


----------



## HEDND

The antenna is a JFD Zig-a-Log UHF. I have a picture in a 1969 tv repair book by Art Margolis. I've seen a few of them stacked as that one is around Boston at one time.


----------



## holl_ands

PS: I measured Holland UVSJ: DC Pass Thru on VHF port, but not UHF Port.

And specs for Pico-Macom UVSJ says DC Pass Thru only on the VHF port.

[BTW: I ordered Pico-Macom, but they substituted Holland....]


What were they thinking???? I would think most people would want DC Pass Thru to their UHF Preamps!!!!!

*Does anyone know of a LOW LOSS VHF/UHF Diplexer (Combiner) with DC Pass Thru on UHF...or both ports????*


Whatever....just means I have to relocate the Power Insertion Module to the attic.....


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HEDND* /forum/post/16704915
> 
> 
> The antenna is a JFD Zig-a-Log UHF. I have a picture in a 1969 tv repair book by Art Margolis. I've seen a few of them stacked as that one is around Boston at one time.



Hmm, I bet it was covered by one of Paul Mayes patents:
http://www.library.illinois.edu/arch...fa/1106033.pdf 


Trapezoidal Zig-Zags are here:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3550143.html 


Triangular Zig-Zags are here:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3355740.html


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16704909
> 
> *@holl_ands*: i made 3 Folded Dipoles of different sizes this weekend. all made of AWG 12. none did much for my situation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> is the use of copper pipes a requirement for this kind of antenna?
> 
> 
> btw, using K7MEM's calculator, i always get an impedance of 288 ohms. is that a major problem?
> 
> 
> Edit: what about the spacing? if the antenna is made of a single material (AWG 12 wire), the spacing can be any, right? i used 1 inch spacing in all 3 i made.



The purpose of the Folded Dipole modeling exercise was to determine the useful

frequency range using various diameter elements....as a low gain alternative to those

pesky hi-VSWR Rabbit Ears.....


For a Folded Dipole cut to cover the whole Hi-VHF Band (192 MHz), VSWR using AWG12

was under 2.0 for Ch8-12 and rose to 2.5 for Ch7 and Ch13....so it's pretty good

but not quite as good as 1/2-in Copper Pipe (under 1.8).

And if you shortened the Folded Dipole, you could improve Ch13 a bit.


But a few tenths of a dB...or even several dB of signal strength aren't your problem.


What you need to do is to attenuate multipath reflections by adding a Reflector.....

& maybe a Director to form a 2 or 3-Element Yagi as discussed here:
http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html 


Or try some of the higher Gain antennas with good Front/Back Ratios,

such as K6STI's DIY 5-Element Yagi (about 32 x 32 inches) or some of the commercial

medium Gain Hi-VHF antennas discussed here and in EV's Indoor antenna thread,

such as EZ-HD (aka RCA ANT751) with 4-Elements for Hi-VHF....plus low gain UHF.


----------



## HEDND

Thanks for the links holl_ands. I see the JFD patent.


----------



## jspENC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16705020
> 
> 
> PS: I measured Holland UVSJ: DC Pass Thru on VHF port, but not UHF Port.
> 
> And specs for Pico-Macom UVSJ says DC Pass Thru only on the VHF port.
> 
> [BTW: I ordered Pico-Macom, but they substituted Holland....]
> 
> 
> What were they thinking???? I would think most people would want DC Pass Thru to their UHF Preamps!!!!!
> 
> *Does anyone know of a LOW LOSS VHF/UHF Diplexer (Combiner) with DC Pass Thru on UHF...or both ports????*
> 
> 
> Whatever....just means I have to relocate the Power Insertion Module to the attic.....



I wanted the same thing, and I couldn't find it either.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16705224
> 
> 
> What you need to do is to attenuate multipath reflections by adding a Reflector..... & maybe a Director to form a 2 or 3-Element Yagi as discussed here:
> http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html



i'll try that.



> Quote:
> [...]Gain Hi-VHF antennas discussed here and in EV's Indoor antenna thread, such as EZ-HD (aka RCA ANT751) with 4-Elements for Hi-VHF....plus low gain UHF.



how does the CM2016 compares to the RCA ANT751 on hi-VHF? what are the VHF elements in that pic? the 2 big angled ones in the back?


----------



## neilkaz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HEDND* /forum/post/16704915
> 
> 
> The antenna is a JFD Zig-a-Log UHF. I have a picture in a 1969 tv repair book by Art Margolis. I've seen a few of them stacked as that one is around Boston at one time.



One wonders how much gain that monster would have on UHF ?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16705020
> 
> 
> [BTW: I ordered Pico-Macom, but they substituted Holland....]



I always imagined that Holland was your company!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> One wonders how much gain that monster would have on UHF ?



Its not a particularly large uhf antenna. (driving by one you may miss it) Typical LPDA gains are from 10 - 11 dbi, so figure 2.5 - 3 tops dbi for stacking, giving about 14 dbi tops. Not really bad for its size and relative ease of manufacturing.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16705020
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone know of a LOW LOSS VHF/UHF Diplexer (Combiner) with DC Pass Thru on UHF...or both ports????



The Antennas Direct EU385CF is DC-PASS on the UHF port. VHF port is DC blocking.


----------



## dewster1977




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16704019
> 
> 
> I acquired it from a house that was auctioned off and the new owners wanted the tower and all taken away. The house is located South of Mercersburg, just below the State Line. I don't have time at the moment, but I'll tell all later.



Wasn't there A CM Color Vector 1210 or 1220 on that tower also? Bet that was fun to take down


----------



## baumgrenze

I'm having a problem with a classic FM antenna and birds. From time to time the local flock of rock doves decides to spend some time on my antenna. From time to time, either when the arrive or when the leave, one of them will knock an element askew and the reception suffers.


Does anyone know if the presence of birds on the antenna will cause a deterioration of reception?


As a first step I am considering just wrapping cable ties around the locks that are supposed to keep the elements deployed. I can see nothing wrong with this.


As a second step I am considering getting a couple of 1/4" weather resistant plastic rods and using cable ties to bind them to each element on both sides of the main boom. Is this worth trying, or might it interfere with reception?


As a final deterrent I am considering a set of plastic rods projecting upwards from the main boom over which I would drape some plastic monofilament bird netting normally used to protect fruit trees from birds. Is this worth trying, or might it interfere with reception?


Is there an antenna forum elsewhere on the web that might be a more appropriate place for this inquiry?


Thanks,


baumgrenze


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Get a .22 rifle and work on your aim.


Ba dum bump!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

This probably isnt the place to ask, but I am considering getting some wireless headphones. Is 95k hz or 2.3 ghz transmission better?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Which one of these antennas is likely to be best on UHF and on VHF hi?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Finco FM-5 and Channel Master Probe 9

http://fmdx.usclargo.com/upclose.htm


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16705664
> 
> 
> i'll try that.
> 
> 
> how does the CM2016 compares to the RCA ANT751 on hi-VHF?
> 
> What are the VHF elements in that pic? the 2 big angled ones in the back?



CM2016 starts as a UHF Corner Yagi with 8+ Directors, similar to CM3016 front end,

except with only one of the big VHF elements remaining (and shortened to 47-in)

and the two rear most UHF elements extended for Hi-VHF range.


Hi-VHF elements are the two medium length elements just in front of the rear element.

From the picture, the rear element appears connected to the forward most of the two

Hi-VHF elements and the other is a passive Hi-VHF/UHF Reflector.


So for Hi-VHF, it's a 2-Element Hi-VHF Yagi "cell" with 8 overly small directors. Active

rear element will also contribute to Hi-VHF performance, seemingly a carry over from how

VHF elements are fed in CM3016....and I don't see any crossover as found in a Log-Yagi....

I would model it if someone has detailed dimensions rather than guessing the Gain.

[Maybe Ken Nist is already working on it......]


C-M specs for CM2016 say 0-2 dBd (2-4 dBi) for Hi-VHF and 7.7 dBd (9.9 dBi) for UHF:
http://www.channelmasterintl.com/doc...log_200903.pdf 

CM2016 on pg1, CM3016 on pg7 and spec summary on pg19.

Note UHF Gain specs for CM2016 are same as CM3016....but not Hi-VHF....

[Although they don't say, I presume C-M continues to use dBd vice dBi.]


=======================================

RCA ANT751 has four Hi-VHF elements in a Log-Yagi configuration and

four more for UHF (and forward most Hi-VHF element is the UHF Reflector),

so it's basically a 5-Element Yagi on UHF, hence less powerful than CM2016.


NEC model says 5.5 dBi Gain for Ch7, raising to 7.5 dBi mid Hi-VHF band.

As I've said earlier, NEC model shows a gain drop across Ch12/13 that may

or may not be an approximation problem in the model (same problem as YA-1713).

I'm going to predict ANT751 has a little more Hi-VHF Gain than CM2016.


=============================================

Unfortunately, neither manufacture provides Front-to-Back Ratio specs, which is

even more important than Gain when fighting Multipath. NEC model for ANT751

shows excellent 17 dB F/B mid-band. Ch12/13 is much less, which may be a result

of the same NEC sim modeling problems mentioned above.


I wouldn't even guess at F/B for CM2016.....need detailed dimensions....


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16708562
> 
> 
> Which one of these antennas is likely to be best on UHF and on VHF hi?



NONE OF THE ABOVE (specs??? user reviews??? can't even tell if UHF and/or Hi-VHF....):
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=35083


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> This probably isnt the place to ask, but I am considering getting some wireless headphones. Is 95k hz or 2.3 ghz transmission better?



Unfortunately, all the wireless headphones Ive had have been poor on bass and the very high notes, despite the specs. You should really try them in store.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Yeah, Im not much on Wireless headphones, but Im looking for products to back up my hearing aid. Such as the TV Ears. Which have older models at 95k Hz and newer at 2.3Ghz. I think 95k Hz is infrared and thus is poor at penetrating walls and such (like a remote). 2.3Ghz (like newer cordless phones which also kept increasing the frequency) has better performance over distance and through walls.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks for the link! Great stuff 300ohm. Maybe I should sign up over there. Digitalhome seems to be my kind of people.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16708503
> 
> 
> This probably isnt the place to ask, but I am considering getting some wireless headphones. Is 95k hz or 2.3 ghz transmission better?


 http://www.goodcans.com/#wireless 
http://www.consumersearch.com/wireless-headphones 
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/headphones/ 

Be sure to click on "Related Categories" (hmm....2007 is rather old):
http://www.onheadphones.com/wireless-headphones.html 


BlueTooth is short range...and cheap means cheap....


900 MHz is pretty good...my analog Sennheiser's work through two walls

and are comfortable and light enough I can wear them for hours at a time.


2.4 GHz analog headsets were used before 900 MHz...so some are ANALOG,

but some of the better ones are DIGITAL:
http://www.amphony.com/download/pdf/dsheets/H1000.pdf 
http://www.amphony.com/products/h2500.htm 
http://www.ltbaudio.com/aboutproducts.html 
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...ategoryId=3732 


So the real question is which is better: ANALOG or DIGITAL.....should be no contest...


===================================================

PS: Yes, 95 kHz is infrared, so it's limited to line-of-sight vice 2.3 GHz wireless:
http://www.tvears.com/shopcontent.as...=tvears_whatis 

Note the coverage specs for the 2.3 GHz wireless TVEars are LESS THAN 95 kHz "Original"....huh????

But TVEars Home Theater (95 kHz) Model covers entire house via a wireless repeater system:
http://www.tvears.com/shopexd.asp?id=5 
https://www.tvears.com/compchart.html


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I used to be a Audiohaulic, however my ears arent what they used to be. Though I still enjoy donking around with vintage audio gear and esoteric and vintage speaker designs. Ive lost some ability to enjoy it.


For example, Beyerdynamic closed cans are my reference standard, because I can reallly push them and they can handle the bass that I through at them at 130db into the ear canal.


Severe to profound hearing loss one ear.....other ear completely deaf.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dewster1977* /forum/post/16708295
> 
> 
> Wasn't there A CM Color Vector 1210 or 1220 on that tower also? Bet that was fun to take down



Since the tower was a light duty one, I was lucky to find the owner had a man lift on the property and let us use it.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16704694
> 
> 
> where i live (NYC), i get UHF stations *very* well, but Hi-VHF reception is really bad. today i'll order the CM 3010 StealthTenna for use indoors. i want an amp too and i wonder if i should go with:
> 
> 
> a) CM3038 (15dB gain. designed for StealthTenna)
> 
> b) CM7777 (big favourite on AVForums)
> 
> 
> suggestions?



The strong (nearly?) LOS signals from Empire State Bldg will overload hi-gain CM7777.


If you try anything, try 12 dB Gain W-G HDP-269, which has very high overload capability

and can be used with ANY antenna (unlike CM3038, which only plugs into StealthTenna):
http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewit...~ANWHDP269.htm 
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001DFS4C2/...0&linkCode=asn


----------



## dewster1977




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16709158
> 
> 
> Since the tower was a light duty one, I was lucky to find the owner had a man lift on the property and let us use it.



Was the VHF in good shape also?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16706266
> 
> 
> I always imagined that Holland was your company!



No, although they are nearby (Ventura, CA), I have no affiliation with Holland Electronics LLC:
http://www.hollandelectronics.com/index.html 


Nor do I have any affiliation with this or any other Holland property:
http://www.hollandcasino.nl/corporate/NL/default.htm


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> From time to time the local flock of rock doves decides to spend some time on my antenna. From time to time, either when the arrive or when the leave, one of them will knock an element askew and the reception suffers.
> 
> 
> Does anyone know if the presence of birds on the antenna will cause a deterioration of reception?



Well, yeah. You know that too, heh.


This may not be a solution for a whole flock, but a bird perch above the antenna may help. Ive noticed birds like to roost on the top most, comfortably sized for their feet, perch. A perch above the antenna is helpful for thin wire antennas like the GH and bowties.


14 X 14 bird netting is only $6 at Lowes (I just bought some for my raspberries), but you will need to build a frame around the antenna. Otherwise using the antenna as part of the net frame, they could still land on the ends, the highest leverage point for them to bend the elements.


Another trick used by sailboaters in dock is hanging a plastic owl so it swings in the wind from the highest point. Unfortunately, smart birds can get used to it though, heh.


Mylar tape or old AOL cd's strung together are another option, as some birds frighten from moving shiny things.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16708822
> 
> 
> RCA ANT751 has four Hi-VHF elements in a Log-Yagi configuration and four more for UHF (and forward most Hi-VHF element is the UHF Reflector), so it's basically a 5-Element Yagi on UHF, hence *less powerful than CM2016*.
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> 
> I'm going to predict ANT751 has a little *more Hi-VHF Gain than CM2016*.





now i'm confused....


----------



## holl_ands

ANT751 appears to be a bit better than CM2016 on Hi-VHF

but it's UHF section doesn't appear to be as good as the CM2016.


So ANT751 is better choice for solving your Hi-VHF problem and BOTH

are a big step up from a RabbitEars (e.g. HDTVa) or StealthTenna.


UHF Gain for either is a lot better than a Loop or StealthTenna.

And if anyone needs more Gain, a UHF only antenna can be added later via UVSJ combiner.


Since you said you face AWAY from the Empire State Bldg, the best signal may or

may not be coming from that direction, trying to propagate THROUGH you building.

However, it is also likely the best signal is reflecting off the hills further away, so

pointing the antenna out your window may work better, attenuating the signal

that goes through the building. The combination of the two signals is Multipath.

Another complication, "best" signal direction for Hi-VHF may or may not be same as UHF.


PS: Last night CH11 and CH13 in Los Angeles finally got their transmitters working

the way they should.....ESB is probably having similar transmitter start up problems....


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16710903
> 
> 
> So ANT751 is better choice for solving your Hi-VHF problem and BOTH are a big step up from a RabbitEars (e.g. HDTVa) or StealthTenna.
> 
> 
> UHF Gain for either is a lot better than a Loop or StealthTenna.



very well laid out! thanks a lot!


i found a new "sweeter spot" for Ch-13 (my favourite Hi-VHF channel) last night!!! in it, i got an astounding 70% strength! on the previous sweet spot i could only get 40% -- and that at night on clear-sky days! the plot thickens! after 2 weeks moving commercial and home-made antennas around the apartment, i realize that there is enough signal for Ch-13 (PBS), but it can only be received at this *VERY* particular spot:


- hanging on a cabinet door;

- 1 ft off the floor;

- facing a wall;

- 3 ft away and pointing 45-deg away from aforementioned wall;

- in the middle of the freaking kitchen;

- using a home-made 12-AWG Folded Dipole!!!


----------



## Don F.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16698663
> 
> 
> I think you are going to have problems with the VHF at 65 miles away with the C4.



After reading several opinions on the c4 I was ready to cancel, but it had shipped.... the thing arrived today, and was high up on the pole within a couple of hours.... It is now back in the box and will be headed north tomorrow. Before installing, I took some signal strength readings from my


cm4228.

Channel 13.....88, channel 9.......66, channel 7.......57


C4

Channel 13.....36, channel 9.......0 channel 7....... 0


neither antenna was amped... I beleive Antennas Direct should take another look at the 12db gain across the hdtv band.... I don't think it has that much horsepower. I wanted to pass on my findings, next time I will read more before I buy.....


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don F.* /forum/post/16713899
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After reading several opinions on the c4 I was ready to cancel, but it had shipped.... the thing arrived today, and was high up on the pole within a couple of hours.... It is now back in the box and will be headed north tomorrow. Before installing, I took some signal strength readings from my
> 
> 
> cm4228.
> 
> Channel 13.....88, channel 9.......66, channel 7.......57
> 
> 
> C4
> 
> Channel 13.....36, channel 9.......0 channel 7....... 0
> 
> 
> neither antenna was amped... I beleive Antennas Direct should take another look at the 12db gain across the hdtv band.... I don't think it has that much horsepower. I wanted to pass on my findings, next time I will read more before I buy.....



At more than 65 miles away, WTH were you thinking ordering a UHF antenna when you already had a UHF antenna that wasn't doing the job on high-VHF?.... Order a VHF antenna, for goodness' sake.


Like any other UHF antenna, it won't have the same reception on the VHF band, especially with the greatly reduced VHF power these guys are now running....


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> this location is both crazy and unfeasible!



Heh, thats typical for a hot spot. There must be a law of physics that explains why that is, he-he.


----------



## Don F.




ProjectSHO89 said:


> At more than 65 miles away, WTH were you thinking ordering a UHF antenna when you already had a UHF antenna that wasn't doing the job on high-VHF?....
> 
> 
> I have a high vhf antenna and a 91xg going into a 7777 that does a good job... I just thought the c4 may be able to pull in the high vhf and uhf in the same unit as the company says.
> 
> 
> The cm 4228 is on the hobby side of life, and is not my primary system, even so it will hold the vhf channels very well, at 65 miles out. I have good elevation...


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16713017
> 
> 
> do you know exactly what happened? which changes were made?



KTTV/11 and KCOP/13 filings suggest that they moved from Aux facilities to their main facilities for upper VHF 11 and 13.


WABC and WNET have already filed Licenses to Cover for their main facilities. No such filing appears for WPIX/11 yet, so perhaps they have more work to do.


----------



## rviele




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity*  /forum/post/16709105
> 
> 
> I used to be a Audiohaulic, however my ears arent what they used to be. Though I still enjoy donking around with vintage audio gear and esoteric and vintage speaker designs. Ive lost some ability to enjoy it.
> 
> 
> For example, Beyerdynamic closed cans are my reference standard, because I can reallly push them and they can handle the bass that I through at them at 130db into the ear canal.
> 
> 
> Severe to profound hearing loss one ear.....other ear completely deaf.



sounds like me i've spent over 6k on hearing aids still can't hear on the phone, anything over 3k goes unheard, what fun it is getting old.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I not old, just deaf. I actually have pristine cochlea and nerves on my one ear that I now use hearing aids in. Eventually Ill get a mechanical implant and have my hearing restored in that ear, to pretty much good as new, hopefully. The other ear is shot.


----------



## nordloewelabs

sorry to ask again. i'm trying to understand the jargon and processes behind this thing. please, bear with me.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/16715496
> 
> 
> KTTV/11 and KCOP/13 filings suggest that they moved from Aux facilities to their main facilities for upper VHF 11 and 13.



so what you mean is that they shut off the analog broadcast that was taking place at the main facility and continued to broadcast in digital from the auxiliary one? and finally, this weekend, they returned to their main facility to -- for the first time -- broadcast in digital?



> Quote:
> WABC and WNET have already filed Licenses to Cover for their main facilities.



in other words, they are *still* operating from their auxiliary facilities, but have already filed for a move to main one? is that what you meant?


----------



## PCTools

Why are those 4 way combiners so expensive and rare to find? I was going to do a quad stack and see they want around $100. Jeez...


What about a standard combiner for UHF and VHF? Is it possible to use a splitter backwards to add a UHF and VHF together into a downlead?


Thanks!


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/16718535
> 
> 
> Why are those 4 way combiners so expensive and rare to find? I was going to do a quad stack and see they want around $100. Jeez...
> 
> 
> What about a standard combiner for UHF and VHF? Is it possible to use a splitter backwards to add a UHF and VHF together into a downlead?
> 
> 
> Thanks!




If all you're doing is combining or splitting UHF & VHF, those devices are inexpensive ($15-20 or less).


A standard splitter should not be used for that part of the system (wrong device).


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dewster1977* /forum/post/16709401
> 
> 
> Was the VHF in good shape also?



A couple of the front elements were broken off. I also snagged a pre-amp, 300 Ohm VHF/UHF combiner, and an FM antenna (bottom broken - possibly rebuildable).


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/16718535
> 
> 
> Why are those 4 way combiners so expensive and rare to find? I was going to do a quad stack and see they want around $100. Jeez...
> 
> 
> What about a standard combiner for UHF and VHF? Is it possible to use a splitter backwards to add a UHF and VHF together into a downlead?
> 
> 
> Thanks!



Yup, 4-way Wilkinson Stripline Combiners are well over $100 now....if you can locate one:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=16072450 

As you can see, very few cover either entire Lo-VHF, Hi-VHF or UHF band

and there are NONE that operate across more than one of these bands.


Standard 2-Way RF Splitter/Combiner is a Hybrid Transformer with 3.5-4.5+ dB loss

and 4-Way is twice that (7-9+ dB).

VHF/UHF Diplexer (aka Combiner) has 0.5-1.0 dB loss, cuz it uses Band Pass Filters instead.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=16273089 


Pico-Macom and Holland UVSJ VHF/UHF Combiners ($3) have DC PASS thru only on VHF side:
http://yhst-18278607509093.stores.ya...combiners.html 
http://www.hollandelectronics.com/ca...-Diplexers.pdf 


Antennas Direct EU-385-CF VHF/UHF Combiner reportedly has DC PASS only on UHF side:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/antenna_combiner.html 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...ANTDRCT-COMBNR


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Standard RF Splitter/Combiner is a Hybrid Transformer with 3.5-4.5+ dB loss.



Yeah, and thats if they mark the specs. If not not, add a good db more. 4 ways are very very miserable. Old timey Channel Master 300ohm 2 set couplers ganged (in reversed and weatherproofed) may do a lower loss job, if you can find them in a flea market. (lucky I have such crap for my experiments, heh)



> Quote:
> I was going to do a quad stack



Quad Horizontal Stack of XG-91's ?


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16695467
> 
> 
> Using the separate inputs of your 7777 is the best way to go. Don't forget to flip the necessary switch.
> 
> 
> Those TVfool numbers are much better (about 20 dB) than where I tested a couple of weeks ago. I'd expect pretty good results.



Just got the C5 installed. Ran it into my 7777 VHF port. Made sure the switch is on for "separate". Still getting 0 signal on 7, 9, 11 and 13. I have it facing the same direction as my C4 and I am getting great signal on UHF. Looks like I will try moving the antenna around but this does not look good. Might have to send it back to Antennasdirect.


----------



## dewster1977




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16719461
> 
> 
> A couple of the front elements were broken off. I also snagged a pre-amp, 300 Ohm VHF/UHF combiner, and an FM antenna (bottom broken - possibly rebuildable).



You should be able to add to your tower now.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16720989
> 
> 
> Just got the C5 installed. Still getting 0 signal on 7, 9, 11 and 13.



Two things to check.


The VHF stations are not in the same heading as the UHF station, re-aim.

Try the antenna directly to the TV to see if the preamp is defective on VHF.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16721127
> 
> 
> Two things to check.
> 
> 
> The VHF stations are not in the same heading as the UHF station, re-aim.
> 
> Try the antenna directly to the TV to see if the preamp is defective on VHF.



I tried the C5 antenna directly to my TV and the same thing (no signal on 7, 9, 11 or 13). What is funny is that I am getting a good enough signal with the C5 for channel 36 directly to my TV. With the C4 through my 7777, I get about 80 signal. With the C5 directly to my tv without the 7777, I get about 50 signal on UHF 36. I will try adjusting the antenna. I just though that since all my towers are at the same degrees (UHF/VHF), I shouldn't have to have a different direction.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16719650
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> Antennas Direct EU-385-CF VHF/UHF Combiner reportedly has DC PASS only on UHF side:
> http://www.antennasdirect.com/antenna_combiner.html
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...ANTDRCT-COMBNR



The Rat Shack 15-2586 UVSJ is also DC Pass on the UHF leg. I have one on my desk right now.


----------



## holl_ands

Too bad R-S doesn't bother to provide isolation or insertion loss specs for 15-2586....


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16722576
> 
> 
> Too bad R-S doesn't bother to provide isolation or insertion loss specs for 15-2586....



Yeah, that would be nice.


However, for consumer-grade stuff, if it's "good enough" not to get returned, that's all it takes.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16721220
> 
> 
> I tried the C5 antenna directly to my TV and the same thing (no signal on 7, 9, 11 or 13). What is funny is that I am getting a good enough signal with the C5 for channel 36 directly to my TV. With the C4 through my 7777, I get about 80 signal. With the C5 directly to my tv without the 7777, I get about 50 signal on UHF 36. I will try adjusting the antenna. I just though that since all my towers are at the same degrees (UHF/VHF), I shouldn't have to have a different direction.




After moving my C5 higher, I am very close to having reception on 9 and 11. 13 is right there but isn't perfect. Still no sign of 7. On my TV tuner, I only need above 35 for UHF for a perfect picture (of course I want to be higher). It seems that with the High VHF channels, I need to be above 45 for a perfect picture. I am right around 44 signal for 13 and 40 signal for 9 an 11 and still 0 for 7. Should I just wait until Los Angeles increases the power for these channels or would a better Pre-Amp for VHF (instead of the 7777) help? I am so close right now. I would like to be at least 20% higher on my signals.


----------



## neilkaz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16723786
> 
> 
> After moving my C5 higher, I am very close to having reception on 9 and 11. 13 is right there but isn't perfect. Still no sign of 7. On my TV tuner, I only need above 35 for UHF for a perfect picture (of course I want to be higher). It seems that with the High VHF channels, I need to be above 45 for a perfect picture. I am right around 44 signal for 13 and 40 signal for 9 an 11 and still 0 for 7. Should I just wait until Los Angeles increases the power for these channels or would a better Pre-Amp for VHF (instead of the 7777) help? I am so close right now. I would like to be at least 20% higher on my signals.



It seems to me that you are the guinea pig for the new C5 and that with it just being a loop in front of a reflector (and a reflector that isn't that large for VHF-HI) it doesn't have enough gain for your needs.


I'd try a YA-1713 if I were you as they have a couple/few dB more gain on VHF-HI and are a tried and proven antenna.


The C4, however, is a good antenna and is essentially 4 loops, so it has decent gain for UHF, and people are doing well with it.


.. neilkaz ..


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *neilkaz* /forum/post/16724520
> 
> 
> It seems to me that you are the guinea pig for the new C5 and that with it just being a loop in front of a reflector (and a reflector that isn't that large for VHF-HI) it doesn't have enough gain for your needs.
> 
> 
> I'd try a YA-1713 if I were you as they have a couple/few dB more gain on VHF-HI and are a tried and proven antenna.
> 
> 
> The C4, however, is a good antenna and is essentially 4 loops, so it has decent gain for UHF, and people are doing well with it.
> 
> 
> .. neilkaz ..




I am sure the YA-1713 would work for me. I live in an Apartment though and I am trying to keep the antenna size small enough. Yes, I do have my own balcony and it is on a tripod in the air, but I am not sure how they would react to a 100" antenna there. I know the FCC rules and everything but I just don't want problems. The C4 and C5 don't stand out as much.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16724544
> 
> 
> I am sure the YA-1713 would work for me.



Not sure if the 6" long Antennacraft Y5-7-13 is an option for you? It is light years better on VHF-HI than the C-4, or 5.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/16724814
> 
> 
> Not sure if the 6" long Antennacraft Y5-7-13 is an option for you? It is light years better on VHF-HI than the C-4, or 5.



Yeah...I was looking at that one also. It is only 5' so it is smaller then that other one. I would be able to "hide" that one easier. If I can't get the C5 working, I will probably get the Y5-7-13 and keep the C4 for the UHF.


----------



## nordloewelabs

i'm looking for ideas for an "indoor mast". i have a 3-way lamp but that doest give me enough flexibility height-wise. i'd like to get something that is at least 7ft high so i can hang a CM2016 nearer the ceiling and out of the way -- even though i might have to lower the antenna eventually.


any ideas? it also has to be something that stays up on its own legs and can be easily found online or in stores. you know, something simple. if there's nothing like it, i'll use the 3-way lamp.


thanks in advance.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

You can get a hand towel holder (like for the bathroom) and mount if vertical on a wall and mount the antenna to that.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16728384
> 
> 
> You can get a hand towel holder (like for the bathroom) and mount if vertical on a wall and mount the antenna to that.



well, i cant drill the walls either. a curtain rod wouldnt work because it can only be put between two walls. so it really must be something that stands on its own legs/base.


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16728432
> 
> 
> well, i cant drill the walls either. a curtain rod wouldnt work because it can only be put between two walls. so it really must be something that stands on its own legs/base.



depends on what you want to look at or buy or build.


a patio umbrella stand will hold a pole to mount an antenna on and will not tip over. a coat tree will hole a pole that might not tip over, might be better if you add weight near the base. a flag pole stand might be between those to in looks and function.


----------



## nordloewelabs

i dont want to build anything. i'm currently browsing Amazon trying to find something that is tall enough. they have lots of floor lamps but they arent tall enough to keep the antenna near the ceiling.


i saw poles at Amazon but couldnt figure out a way to keep one standing.


----------



## systems2000

Try looking in the bath section of Wal-Mart for an adjustable shower curtain rods. I use them in the laundry room to hang clothing, when I remove them from the dryer. I also have mounted one above the shower head for extra towel draping and the wife uses it for her delicates.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16728726
> 
> 
> Try looking in the bath section of Wal-Mart for an adjustable shower curtain rods.



seems to be a good idea. i wouldnt use it horizontally (like in the bathroom) because it would limit my ability to move the antenna around. i wonder if it would be strong enough to bear the weight of the antenna when setup vertically (against the floor and ceiling). i guess that, if i got one with flat ends, that would increase the adherence to the floor and ceiling.


----------



## systems2000

I did a continuity test on the Zig-Zag antenna I acquired and found that the four sets of Zig-Zag's are all electrically connected through the rear cross-bracing. I can actually place the multi-meter leads on both terminals of the 300 ohm connection and get continuity.


I don't think this is supposed to happen. If I mount the antenna to a grounded mast, the signal will go to ground.










I'm also wondering if there should be a reflector or grounded backplane.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16728758
> 
> 
> seems to be a good idea. i wouldnt use it horizontally (line in the bathroo) because it would limit my ability to move the antenna around. i wonder if it would be strong enough to bear the weight of the antenna when setup vertically (against the floor and ceiling). i guess that, if i got one with flat ends, that would increase the adherence to the floor and ceiling.



Depends upon how much you turn the rods to apply pressure. The one I have in the laundry room spans both the washer and dryer and is completely packed with clothes on hangers. Even several heavy Winter military jackets.


----------



## systems2000

I hope I get this right.


I took some measurements of the Zig-Zag and this is what I came up with:


12 Zags / arm mounted to plastic square tubes
*Gross Size (Frame):* 29.25" x 29.25" x 43" (back dimension x back dimension x back to front)
*Front Gross Size:* 6" x 2"
*300 Ohm Feed Point:* 3" forward of Zig-Zag elements (with 5" feed wire to Zig-Zag elements (x4))
*Feed End (at Zig-Zag):* 4.5" x 8.25"
*Resistance From Front of Zig-Zag to Rear Frame:* 74 ohms
*Rear - Outside to Outside of Zig-Zag element (L to R):* 38.5"*

Front - Outside to Outside of Zig-Zag element (L to R):* 10.75"
*Center to Center of Zig-Zag Elements (Rear L to R):* 27.25"
*Center to Center of Zig-Zag Elements (Rear T to B):* 27.75"
*Center to Center of Zig-Zag Elements (Front L to R):* 7.375"
*Center to Center of Zig-Zag Elements (Front T to B):* 4"
*Zig-Zag Length (F to B):* 38.5"
*Zig-Zag Width (F to B):* 0.375" to 0.875"
*Zig-Zag Element Placement:* 4.5" from front and 2.25" from rear
*Length of First Zig (End - End):* 1.625"
*Length of Last Zag (End - End):* 6.6875"


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16728766
> 
> 
> I did a continuity test on the Zig-Zag antenna I acquired and found that the four sets of Zig-Zag's are all electrically connected through the rear cross-bracing. I can actually place the multi-meter leads on both terminals of the 300 ohm connection and get continuity.



Means nothing. A folded dipole is the same way. Almost any antenna is either a dead short or an open circuit to DC (the exceptions aren't common in TV antennas). An LPDA (and thus probably an LPZA) can be done either way.


----------



## Mister B

When I lived in an apartment my ceiling was too high for a shower rod to span the distance between the floor and ceiling. I found an expandable paint brush handle (used for painting high walls) at the hardware store which was long enough to extend to a height that it could be wedged in between the carpet and a small piece of foam rubber to protect the ceiling.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/16729855
> 
> 
> Means nothing. A folded dipole is the same way. Almost any antenna is either a dead short or an open circuit to DC (the exceptions aren't common in TV antennas). An LPDA (and thus probably an LPZA) can be done either way.



So explain to me how the signal doesn't just go to ground when the antenna is mounted. Every antenna I've seen is electrically isolated from the grounded tower.

*Clarification:* The continuity is being caused by all four elements being riveted to the back mounting frame.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> So explain to me how the signal doesn't just go to ground when the antenna is mounted. Every antenna I've seen is electrically isolated from the grounded tower.



My CM1221 is the same way, the vertical boom in the back is electrically connected to both horizontal booms, resulting in a dead short across the twin lead. It is isolated from the mast though, so I can see your point. Have you tested it out on a grounded mast ? Some lpda's will have an open circuit. Think of it this way, both booms are really acting as one, whether they are open or short circuited. And the signal eventually does go to a ground.



> Quote:
> I took some measurements of the Zig-Zag and this is what I came up with:



Good start. For modeling, more measurements would be needed.


1) How thick is the zig-zag material ?

2) How wide is each individual zig-zag leg ? They look to be all the same width ?.

3) Would need cummulative distances of one zig-zag. (all 4 look to be exactly the same ?)

Measure the cumulative distance of the right side sharp points, starting at the back (away from the transmitter) and going to the front.

Measure the cumulative distance of the left side sharp points, starting at the back (away from the transmitter) and going to the front.

Also, at all those above points, the total horizontal width of the zig-zag at that point. You can do that by holding a flat edge against one side of the zig-zag element.

Basically, a graph paper drawing would be needed.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16730172
> 
> 
> So explain to me how the signal doesn't just go to ground when the antenna is mounted. Every antenna I've seen is electrically isolated from the grounded tower.



What is important is that the *DRIVEN ELEMENT* is not shorted to ground at *RF frequencies*.


The boom, reflectors, and directors are commonly in direct contact with the mast.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16730596
> 
> 
> What is important is that the *DRIVEN ELEMENT* is not shorted to ground at *RF frequencies*.
> 
> 
> The boom, reflectors, and directors are commonly in direct contact with the mast.



There are no reflectors or directors and as posted earlier, the booms are plastic square tubes. The Zig-Zag elements are riveted to the back bracing, which had "U" bolts (one in the upper brace and one in the lower brace) to clamp to the tower.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16730365
> 
> 
> Think of it this way, both booms are really acting as one, whether they are open or short circuited. And the signal eventually does go to a ground.



There are four booms. The bootom two booms are bonded to one side of the 300 Ohm wing nut and the top two booms are bonded to the other side of the wing nut.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16730365
> 
> 
> Good start. For modeling, more measurements would be needed.
> 
> 
> 1) How thick is the zig-zag material ?
> 
> 2) How wide is each individual zig-zag leg ? They look to be all the same width ?.
> 
> 3) Would need cummulative distances of one zig-zag. (all 4 look to be exactly the same ?)
> 
> Measure the cumulative distance of the right side sharp points, starting at the back (away from the transmitter) and going to the front.
> 
> Measure the cumulative distance of the left side sharp points, starting at the back (away from the transmitter) and going to the front.
> 
> Also, at all those above points, the total horizontal width of the zig-zag at that point. You can do that by holding a flat edge against one side of the zig-zag element.
> 
> Basically, a graph paper drawing would be needed.



1) 1/16"

2)It tapers from narrow to wide (front to rear). As posted earlier - *Zig-Zag Width (F to B):* 0.375" to 0.875"

3)They are:
*LEFT (From Rear C-C):* 35.375" (35-3/8")
*RIGHT (From Rear C-C):* 34.3125" (34-5/16")


I did notice that the points are not linear from front to back. They seem to make a concave curve. Graphing would be the best option. Maybe I can use some easel paper and lay the element down and trace it.


----------



## systems2000

Before I get to the table, the elements are alternating zigs and zags, as you go around the four corners (ie. starts left, then right, then left, then right). There's also another interesting effect that I just noticed, the zig or zag is parallel to the backplane. The top right (looking from the rear) produces a parallel at the start, while the top left produces the parallel after the first bend. This also alternates.


*Length* (starting at rear)*Width**Rivet**Joint*6-23/32" (Half)0.875"XX12-1/4"13/16"  11-9/16"3/4"X 10-29/32"11/16"  10-9/32"5/8"  9-11/16"5/8"XX9-1/8"5/8"  8-19/32"9/16"  8-1/16"9/16"X 7-5/8"17/32"  7-5/32"1/2"  6-3/4"15/32"  6-5/16"7/16"XX5-15/16"7/16"  5-9/16"7/16"  5-1/4"3/8"X 4-27/32"3/8"  4-9/16"3/8"  4-1/4"3/8"  3-15/16"3/8"X 3-21/32"3/8"  3-7/16"3/8"  3-3/8"3/8"  3"3/8"  1-5/8" (Half)0.375"XX


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16730172
> 
> 
> So explain to me how the signal doesn't just go to ground when the antenna is mounted. Every antenna I've seen is electrically isolated from the grounded tower.



I'm not an RF engineer, but I think this will only be a problem if there's also a path to ground through the feed. There's another thread about baluns where it's noted that some of them have a direct connection between input and output and some don't. If there's a path to ground through both element and feed, I believe the feedline and the mounting structure become part of the antenna, which is not going to help anything.


----------



## rbarbier

Ok...


After playing with my C5 a little bit more (moving it around), I am very close to getting channel 9, 11 and 13. I have just enough signal for a picture but any little drop in signal and it will drop enough to lose signal. I am using the 7777 with the C4 going into the UHF and the C5 going into the VHF. If I change to the Winegard AP 2880, will this get me where I need to be? I am really good with the UHF I just need a little more for the VHF. I have a feeling that when/if the LA stations increase the power, I will be better.


Thanks.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...618a23d52b0c16


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16732797
> 
> 
> 
> After playing with my C5 a little bit more (moving it around), I am very close to getting channel 9, 11 and 13.



the secret is: a "sweeter spot" is just a few inches away.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=9707


----------



## stewboat

I am located in Winlock WA, and have been receiving OTA UHF digital signals for a couple years. I'm using stacked 91 XG's, about 40' off the ground on a rotor. I have a Channel master pre-amp with seperate leades for VHF and UHF, but threw away my channelmaster 3671 vhf combo antenna a couple months ago as the VHF analog didn't compare to the digital UHF, so we never watched any of the channels. I was only using it for VHF as the UHF reception on it did not cmpare to a single 91XG. Three of the stations we watch went back to VHF after the transition, 8,10 and 12. I bought a Antenna craft Y10-7-13 and put it up Friday, signal is marginal on 10 and 8, while 12 doesn't pick up at all. Is there a better VHF hi-band available? If not is there a combo antenna that is as good on UHF as my 91XG's, if so I could reluctantly replace both of them with two combo antennas? I am about 75 miles from the transmitters. Thanks.


----------



## systems2000

I discovered an interesting feature of my setup this evening. To get WLYH-DT at 66.3° True (from FCC database), I need to set my antenna on a -90° heading from 66.3°. This is the only station that I have to do this with.


Is it possible to get that strong of a multi-path off the Tuscarora Ridge, that it drowns out the 2-edge direction? My reception is solid (on all CECB's) at 70% SS and 24% SQ on my ZAT-970A.


----------



## bozey45

I keep reading that the Wade-Delhi VIP 306 and 307 are the best; they are huge understand but supposed to be the best for long distance.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stewboat* /forum/post/16733369
> 
> 
> I am located in Winlock WA, and have been receiving OTA UHF digital signals for a couple years. I'm using stacked 91 XG's, about 40' off the ground on a rotor. I have a Channel master pre-amp with seperate leades for VHF and UHF, but threw away my channelmaster 3671 vhf combo antenna a couple months ago as the VHF analog didn't compare to the digital UHF, so we never watched any of the channels. I was only using it for VHF as the UHF reception on it did not cmpare to a single 91XG. Three of the stations we watch went back to VHF after the transition, 8,10 and 12. I bought a Antenna craft Y10-7-13 and put it up Friday, signal is marginal on 10 and 8, while 12 doesn't pick up at all. Is there a better VHF hi-band available? If not is there a combo antenna that is as good on UHF as my 91XG's, if so I could reluctantly replace both of them with two combo antennas? I am about 75 miles from the transmitters. Thanks.



A Funke psp1922 would be an option if you can find one. MaxHD used to have some for sale here at AVS. It's the top antenna in the first pic below.


You could also stack two Y10 7-13's either vertically or horizontally.


Be sure your receiver is picking up the correct actual channel for 12. Post transition there are some PSIP issues causing "loss" of a channel. You may need to rescan or even erase the channels entirely and start over.


You won't find a combo antenna as good for uhf as a dedicated uhf antenna.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stewboat* /forum/post/16733369
> 
> 
> Is there a better VHF hi-band available? If not is there a combo antenna that is as good on UHF as my 91XG's, if so I could reluctantly replace both of them with two combo antennas? I am about 75 miles from the transmitters. Thanks.



The best 7-69 combo antenna is the Winegard HD7698P. It offers more VHF gain than the Y10-7-13, but it's UHF performance is about 10% less than the 91-XG.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stewboat* /forum/post/16733369
> 
> 
> I bought a Antenna craft Y10-7-13 and put it up Friday, signal is marginal on 10 and 8, while 12 doesn't pick up at all. Is there a better VHF hi-band available? If not is there a combo antenna that is as good on UHF as my 91XG's, if so I could reluctantly replace both of them with two combo antennas? I am about 75 miles from the transmitters.



The Winegard YA-1713 has more gain than the Antennacraft Y10-7-13. Would it actually perform any better in your situation would be guess work and unfortunately, there is only one way to know for sure.


The following is for average terrain, if your transmit antenna is at 1500' level then the receive antenna would need to be at 205' level for line of sight at 75 miles.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I discovered an interesting feature of my setup this evening. To get WLYH-DT at 66.3° True (from FCC database), I need to set my antenna on a -90° heading from 66.3°. This is the only station that I have to do this with.



On the zig-zag uhf antenna ? That is weird, as the antenna should have a null there. Is the station too strong ? I can occasionally get WLYH-DT way down here.


----------



## dewster1977




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16733378
> 
> 
> I discovered an interesting feature of my setup this evening. To get WLYH-DT at 66.3° True (from FCC database), I need to set my antenna on a -90° heading from 66.3°. This is the only station that I have to do this with.
> 
> 
> Is it possible to get that strong of a multi-path off the Tuscarora Ridge, that it drowns out the 2-edge direction? My reception is solid (on all CECB's) at 70% SS and 24% SQ on my ZAT-970A.



I tried the same thing 90° off and get both WLYH and WHP great that way


----------



## MTVhike

This is my first post, and I am a little confused about how the forum works. I want to post a query, but I can't find out how to do that, so I am trying to post a reply, although I don't know who I am replying to. I just spent the last hour composing my "reply", and when I tried to send it, it disappeared. Is there a time limit?


Anyway, I will break my questions into separate posts. My first question is, how do I know if my antenna/amp system is causing overload. It consists of two antennas connected to a CM7777 preamp which, in turn, is connected to a RS 4-way amplified splitter. Removing the splitter seems to have no effect. The maximum signal strength I get is 40%.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Post your TVfool and what antennas you are using with the CM 7777, how long the cabling, and where your antenna(s) are located.


Also what is your house made of and roofing material?


----------



## MTVhike

For UHF, I am usiing a CM 4248 Yagi, for VHF, I am using a dipole cut to channel 13. Both are located in my attic pointing to the west through a window.. The ESB is 254 degrees, and WLIW-21 is 239 degrees. The CM777 is mounted on the mast, with about 4 feet of RG6 to the UHF terminals of the 4248, the dipole is mounted on the window frame with about 6 feet of 300 twin lead, and the cable from the 7777 to the TV is about 20 feet long, also RG6. This is a test setup installed in the winter to see if it works; I plan to put it on the roof after this proof-of-concept.


The house is a frame house with an asphalt roof, but the signals don't come in through the roof.


I can give a lot more information, but I don't want to lose the post as I did last time.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

And what are you not getting? What are you trying to get?




Here is what I would do.


Make a DIY GrayHoverman with the additional VHF High augmentation that 300ohm can tell you about in the How to Build a UHF Antenna thread. Dont add a reflector because you want it bi-directional so you can get the 268 and 30 degree magnetic compass heading transmissions (finding a nuanced postion off axis from both just East of 30 degrees and just South of 268 degrees to aim the antenna).


I would keep the CM7777 as it will likely have a lower noise figure than the Distribution Amp, and get rid of the distribution amplifier and go with a 4 way splitter of good quality (or whatever number of lines you need).


This will get you most of the stations at 268 and 30 degrees magnetic.



The Gray Hoverman with VHF High augmentation has great bandwidth and beamwidth and good gain figures.


----------



## stewboat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wendell R. Breland* /forum/post/16734590
> 
> 
> The Winegard YA-1713 has more gain than the Antennacraft Y10-7-13. Would it actually perform any better in your situation would be guess work and unfortunately, there is only one way to know for sure.
> 
> 
> The following is for average terrain, if your transmit antenna is at 1500' level then the receive antenna would need to be at 205' level for line of sight at 75 miles.



I had the winegaurd on order for over a week but cancelled as the shipment to Solid Signal kept getting delayed. I thought the antennacraft would do the job, that's what I get for thinking. Now I'm considering loosing one of the 91XG's and trying the antennacraft further up the mast where the lower 91XG was, or one of these other antennas recomended if I can find one. Originaly I had only 1 91XG aprox 29' off the ground for UHF and got most of the stations I receive now. When I added the second 91XG I re-masted and incresed height to over 42' off the ground, so I was never sure if all the gain was from the second antenna or the height increase. My house is on a hill approx 450' above sea level and when I put up the Antennacraft y10 7-13 on friday it was only 30' off the ground. Any thoughts?


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16735150
> 
> 
> On the zig-zag uhf antenna ?



No. The CM3020.


I haven't mounted the Zig-Zag yet.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16735150
> 
> 
> Is the station too strong ?



I don't think so, I have stronger that don't produce this effect.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dewster1977* /forum/post/16735217
> 
> 
> I tried the same thing 90° off and get both WLYH and WHP great that way



So it's not just me? As for WHP-DT, all I get on 21 is WVPY-DT.


----------



## systems2000

Make sure you mount the VHF-Hi antenna at least 32" below the UHF antennas and 32" above roof line.


Are you on a tower or are you mounting a pipe on the roof?


If you point the antenna to 268°M, I would think that you should not have any problem acquiring 7, 8, 11, or 13 (maybe even 12).


----------



## dewster1977




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16737303
> 
> 
> So it's not just me? As for WHP-DT, all I get on 21 is WVPY-DT.



I use to get WVPY all the time till WHP went back to 21, although this afternoon, I got WGAL, WLYH and for the first time WPMT, WJZ is pretty good now they increased power.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stewboat* /forum/post/16736895
> 
> 
> Any thoughts?



I assume you are trying for the Seattle/Tacoma stations. There is a pretty good range of hills between you and the transmitter antennas. Click here for Goggle maps, enter your City, ST click Search, then click Terrain for topographic map. 75 miles is considered deep fringe. The heights that I posted is the height needed just to clear the earths surface because of the earths curvature. If you are open to experimenting, the first thing I would try is to see what kind of VHF reception I could get. I would put up only the VHF antenna as high as possible and no pre-amp.


Keep in mind antenna spacing when you use a separate VHF and UHF antenna.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16736066
> 
> 
> I would keep the CM7777 as it will likely have a lower noise figure than the Distribution Amp, and get rid of the distribution amplifier and go with a 4 way.



A 7777 with signal strengths like that?????????? There is no way it will work. The 7777 is designed for the boonies.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

His transmitters at 254 (and 253) degrees go all the way down into the red, and he is trying to pick up channels at 10 degrees as well. Bidirectional antenna (with therefore less gain), the amp will help tremendously, and he also has a 4 way splitter (12db down) and cable runs to overcome.


I dont see a problem. This will maximize his channels in a set and forget solution. No?


Alternatively he could get rid of the CM 7777 and keep the Distro Amp, but I find that an inferior solution, (unless he gets some overloading which I dont anticipate). After the 4way split that is +6db per cable to combat cable losses on UHF (lets assume -3db average on each cable run). Doesnt seem to be a problem to me. Add to that -3db for the attic/roof attenuation. And a 8-10db Gray Hoverman gain...apply all that to -70dbm signal strength on average.....attic attenuates the strongest stations at -40dm. I only forsee a possible problem on Channel 23 Telemundo, but even if that overloads the tuner on that one channel, youve still got 2 Telemundos to watch, and youve gained yourself some stability and extra channels on the low signal strength stuff down the list into the red.


Am I wrong?


----------



## Digital Rules

The strongest stations are more imporatant that the weaker ones when deciding on a pre-amp. The slightest amount of overload at the pre-amp "_i*nput*_" will lessen the chances of seeing the desired weaker channels. The Winegard 2870 would be the highest gain unit I would even consider. To be on the safe side I would go with the HDP-269 since the antenna is coming out of the attic eventually.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stewboat* /forum/post/16736895
> 
> 
> I had the winegaurd on order for over a week but cancelled as the shipment to Solid Signal kept getting delayed. I thought the antennacraft would do the job, that's what I get for thinking. Now I'm considering loosing one of the 91XG's and trying the antennacraft further up the mast where the lower 91XG was, or one of these other antennas recomended if I can find one. Originaly I had only 1 91XG aprox 29' off the ground for UHF and got most of the stations I receive now. When I added the second 91XG I re-masted and incresed height to over 42' off the ground, so I was never sure if all the gain was from the second antenna or the height increase. My house is on a hill approx 450' above sea level and when I put up the Antennacraft y10 7-13 on friday it was only 30' off the ground. Any thoughts?



There's won't likely be any performance difference b/w the Antennacraft Y10 and the Winegard Y10. Winegard is known for inflating their gain figures.


Experimenting with position on the mast is certainly a good idea. Higher may not always be better.


As far as long range antennas go for hi band vhf, to get noticeably "better" you'll need the huge Delhi, the relatively huge psp1922, or a stack of Y10's.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> WJZ is pretty good now they increased power.



Ill have to do a rescan for it after I turn the antenna. Do you know if WBAL channel 11 increased power ? They were slated for 5KW last September (WJZ channel 13 was allocated 25KW at the time), which is just plain ridiculous, heh.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16738855
> 
> 
> Ill have to do a rescan for it. Do you know if WBAL channel 11 increased power ? They were slated for 5KW, which is just plain ridiculous, heh.



No, still @ 5kw. They haven't applied for a power increase AFAIK. I'm finding reliable reception limited to around 45-50 miles with a 10 db gain antenna. Over 50 miles is pretty much tropo only unless you have a considerable terrain advantage.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/16738357
> 
> 
> Winegard is known for inflating their gain figures.



Really. Can you provide some scientific data to backup such a statement. I am not interested in they said, he said statements.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16737632
> 
> 
> His transmitters at 254 (and 253) degrees go all the way down into the red, and he is trying to pick up channels at 10 degrees as well. Bidirectional antenna (with therefore less gain), the amp will help tremendously.
> 
> 
> Am I wrong?



Yes.


I think that trying to receive red color stations with a bidirectional antenna won't work.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/16738275
> 
> 
> The strongest stations are more imporatant that the weaker ones when deciding on a pre-amp. The slightest amount of overload at the pre-amp "_i*nput*_" will lessen the chances of seeing the desired weaker channels. The Winegard 2870 would be the highest gain unit I would even consider. To be on the safe side I would go with the HDP-269 since the antenna is coming out of the attic eventually.



45 miles from the towers is the boonies.


I have a CM7777 hoooked up to a CM4221 and 50ft of RG6....most stations at -70dbm one at -40dbm, no problems here.


But I understand your assertion. Perhaps the 269 is the way to go, but he has in his possession a CM7777 and a RS 4 way distro amp. Of those 2, Id try the CM7777 first, by itself.


----------



## Konrad2

> i'm looking for ideas for an "indoor mast". i have a 3-way lamp

> but that doest give me enough flexibility height-wise. i'd like

> to get something that is at least 7ft high so i can hang a

> CM2016 nearer the ceiling and out of the way


Assuming an 8 foot ceiling: see if you can find a spring-tension

pole, perhaps as part of a lamp. Probably not a good choice if

the ceiling is suspended. With a suspended ceiling, just hang

it from the grid.


A pole plus a automotive scissors jack. (Be careful to avoid

punching a hole in the ceiling!)


Mount a pole in a Christmas tree stand.


A large plastic tub full of dirt, sand, or rocks would support a pole.

For extra credit plant some flowers or tomatoes.


Those standalone basketball stands, although many will be too large.

Maybe they make a smaller version for little kids?

Maybe they sell standalone tetherball poles? volleyball, badmitten, ...


Pipe: get some threaded steel plumbing pipe and some tees.

You could make a shiny version using copper. Would PVC be

strong enough?


Build something out of 2x4s


concrete pier support with bracket for mounting a 4x4

(hide the ugliness with a Christmas tree skirt type cloth)


patio umbrella stand


camera tripod


Put a cabinet/dresser/shelves there and fasten pole to the back

of it.


Put a tall bookcase there and set antenna on it.


They sell hooks for holding hanging plants. Leave the hook

when you move, or fill hole with spackle and then paint it.

(assuming plaster or sheetrock ceiling)


----------



## slush1422

326 pages in this forum is a lot to go through. I cant tell if I need two antennas or can do just one? We currently have a set top indoor antenna and want to upgrade to an outdoor roof mounted one. Living in the Los Angeles area, we have experienced the same thing others have where we lost channels 7-13. Any suggestions for a one antenna solution that will get 7-13 well as other stations? Here is my info from TV Fool:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...618ab3c4be902a


----------



## etcarroll

Before I mounted my CM4228, I had a temp mounting of a broom handle in a patio umbrella stand, it worked very nicely.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Microphone stands


----------



## nordloewelabs

thank you all for the suggestions! as of now, i'm more inclined to get a strong and stretchable curtain rod. btw, i just ordered the CM2016 and the HDP-269 amp. this amp was recommended by *holl_ands* as a way to avoid overload of my CM-7000 converter. i have a 37" Olevia LCD too so i'll split in 2 the signal received by the antenna.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wendell R. Breland* /forum/post/16739358
> 
> 
> Really. Can you provide some scientific data to backup such a statement. I am not interested in they said, he said statements.



Just anectodal and from my experience. No offense meant.


The PR9032 doesn't perform as well as it should based on its published gain specs for uhf and neither does the 8200p for vhf.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/16741100
> 
> 
> The PR9032 doesn't perform as well as it should based on its published gain specs for uhf . . . . .



Do you feel the 91-XG is substantially better?


Thanks!!


----------



## DieterW

Here's my TVFool.com info (sorry the link doesn't work -- new member and therefore no URLs allowed):


Paste the string to the end of www . tvfool . com


/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d618ac14ba8610a


I am mainly interested in the (closer and higher-power) ATSC/DTV stations that are at 180-185 degrees. All are UHF except for Fox which is at 7. Most are ~15 miles away.


This will be installed in the attic, with about a 100 foot run (RG6) to a 4-way splitter. I was looking at the Winegard AP-8700 pre-amp. (apparently the CM 7777 is really popular, too. Any preferences???)


For the antenna, I was considering the ANT751/EZ-HD, the 7694P, maybe the CM 2016, or even the UP-7 from Denny's. The EZ-HD looks nice due to its small size, but the 7694 seems to be really popular. EDIT: Also maybe the AntennaCraft HBU22???


I currently have the SS-3000 inside (not in the attic) and it works pretty well except for a couple of channels occasionally dropping out. But, I would like a more consistent signal on all channels and I'm willing to pay for it.


Also, does anybody know if you need to lightning ground the antenna if it's in the attic? Do you have to go all out crazy or can you just ground it to something grounded in the attic just to dissipate static buildup?


Thanks in advance!


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/16741100
> 
> 
> Just anectodal and from my experience. *No offense meant*.



None taken!



> Quote:
> The PR9032 doesn't perform as well as it should based on its published gain specs for uhf and neither does the 8200p for vhf.



Click here for antenna test done by Bob Chase. Please note the last two pages cover the UHF band. Also note there is not that much difference between antennas of similar design. Bob did not test the Winegard PR-9032 but he did test the Channel Master 4248. It was one of the best UHF models, the PR-9032 is of similar design and should meet or exceed the 4248 in performance. Some people were having trouble because they did not read the instructions for the PR-9032 and were making down-lead connections to the VHF “pass-thru” connection point (some did this to the CM-4248).


Click here for my install and flow chart.


----------



## MTVhike

First, I want to thank Escape Velocity, Systems2000, Digital Rules, and Tower Guy for addressing my reception problem. I already was concerned with Digital Rules' issue about my having too much gain. I assume that I can calculate the signal strength, so I shall do that now for the two stations which concern me most: WLIW Channel 21, 20 miles at 239 degrees (my strongest station), and WNJN Channel 51, 55 miles at 266 degrees. My CM 4248 28 element Yagi has a UHF gain of 10.8 dB. The 7777 preamp has a UHF gain of 26 dB, with a noise figure of 2.0 dB; UHF output capacity is 51 dBmV.


I don't exactly know what to do with those numbers, but if I add the two gains together (10.8 + 26 = 38.8), and add them to the PWR figure for the two stations, I get -10.1 dB for channel 21 and -31.9 dB for channel 51, which both seem awfully low. The antenna gains are relative to a reference dipole, but how much signal voltage does a power of -48.9 dB generate in such a reference dipole? Is 21.8 dB too great a difference to pick up both stations without overloading? Is the overload problem a function of the strongest station, even if I am tuned to a different station? If we are talking about preamp overload, then I assume the answer is yes, because the preamp is untuned. If it is the TV tuner's overload, then I don't know; probably still yes, because I don't think the input stage of the ATSC tuner is tuned.


When I put up my original-but-now-defunct Radio Shack antenna on my roof in 1990, I could get both 21 and 50 (analog, of course). Just prior to 6/12, I could get analog 50 (weakly) with my attic-mounted 4248.


A problem with Escape Velocity's suggestion to pick up the CT stations off the back because both directions have channel 31 (WTIC at NM of 19.9, and WPXN at NM of 16.1).


The table below lists all the stations I should receive, based on TVfool (info except quality from TVfool).


Call chnl virtual NM(dB) Pwr Azimuth Quality Antenna

"GREEN"

WFTY-DT 23 (67.X) 67.1 -28.2 105 POOR unamplified Silver Sensor pointing @~20 degrees

WSAH-DT 42 (43.X) 50.0 -40.8 3 POOR unamplified Silver Sensor pointing @~20 degrees

WLNY-DT 47 (55?) 48.9 -41.9 100 POOR unamplified Silver Sensor pointing @~20 degrees

WLIW-DT 21 (21.X) 41.9 -48.9 239 GOOD either (or both)

WCTX-DT 39 (59.X) 39.9 -50.9 16 POOR unamplified Silver Sensor pointing @~20 degrees

WTNH-DT 10 (8.X) 38.4 -52.5 16 FAIR unamplified Silver Sensor pointing @~20 degrees (should try a VHF antenna here)

WEDW-DT 49 (49.X) 37.2 -53.6 355 GOOD unamplified Silver Sensor pointing @~20 degrees


"YELLOW"

WABC-DT 7 (7.X) 27.1 -63.7 254 GOOD amplified channel 13 dipole pointing @~220 degrees

WEDY-DT 6 (65.X) 25.8 -65.0 24 NONE neither

WNJU-DT 36 (47.X) 25.7 -65.1 254 POOR amplified CM4248 pointing @~220 degrees

WVIT-DT 35 (30.X) 25.5 -65.3 17 POOR unamplified Silver Sensor pointing @ ~20 degrees

WTXX-DT 20 (61.x?) 25.0 -65.9 17 POOR unamplified Silver Sensor pointing @ ~20 degrees

WNJB-DT 8 (58.1) 23.8 -67.0 255 NONE neither

WNET-DT 13 (13.X) 23.7 -67.1 254 GOOD amplified channel 13 dipole pointing @~220 degrees

WPIX-DT 11 (11.X) 23.6 -67.3 254 VERY POOR OR NONE

WNYW-DT 44 (5.X) 23.1 -67.7 254 NONE neither

WKOB-LP 2 (42.1) 21.7 -69.1 254 NONE neither

WCBS-DT 33 (2.X) 21.2 -69.7 254 NONE (got it once before 6/12)

WMBC-DT 18 (63.1) 20.7 -70.2 266 NONE neither

WNBC-DT 28 (4.X) 20.3 -70.5 254 NONE neither

WXTV-DT 40 (41.X) 20.2 -70.6 254 FAIR amplified CM4248 pointing @~220 degrees

WTIC-DT 31 (61.X) 19.9 -70.9 17 POOR unamplified Silver Sensor pointing @ ~20 degrees

WEDH-DT 45 (24.X?) 18.9 -71.9 17 VERY POOR unamplified Silver Sensor pointing @ ~20 degrees

WWOR-DT 38 (9.X) 18.3 -72.6 254 NONE neither

WNYE-DT 24 (25.1) 18.2 -72.7 255 POOR amplified CM4248 pointing @~220 degrees

WTBY-DT 27 (54.X) 17.9 -72.9 313 GOOD amplified CM4248 pointing @~220 degrees

WFUT-DT 30 (68.x) 16.7 -74.2 254 VERY POOR amplified CM4248 pointing @~220 degrees

WFSB-DT 33 (3.X) 16.4 -74.4 17 NONE neither

WPXN-DT 31 (31.X) 16.1 -74.7 254 NONE neither

WRNN-DT 48 (48.X?) 12.9 -77.9 313 NONE neither

WNJN-DT 51 (50.X) 12.9 -77.9 266 NONE (used to get analog)


Nothing weaker than this.


Sorry this table is poorly formatted - I used Notepad with tabs to create it. It does, however, bring up a few questions:

According to TVfool FAQs, all of these noise margins are plenty high to get all the signals umamplified, but I don't.

Why do I get a good signal on WEDW-49 and not on WSAH-42? Both are to the north, LOS, and WSAH is stronger!

WNET-13 and WPIX-11 are almost adjacent channels and both on the Empire State Building (I think), but I usually can't get 11.


I am using a CM selector switch to connect the two antenna systems. I tried a passive splitter as a combiner, but most stations disappeared, although, if I scanned my tuner with this setup, both sets of stations appeared!


The cable between the Silver Sensor and the switch is a new RG6, about 20 feet long. THe cable between the 7777 and the switch is an old RG59 inside the wall, and is also about 20 feet long - should I replace it?


All this stuff is in my 3rd floor attic, including all antennas, the Samsung TV, a Panasonic ATSC DVD recorder, and a CM7000 converter box. In addition, I have a 30 foot RG59 going to my second floor computer room, to an ATI tuner card. I also have an RG50 cable running underground to an apartment in my garage, probably 150 feet long. All the extra cables are not now being used, but that is why I had the amplified RS splitter.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16740002
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> I think that trying to receive red color stations with a bidirectional antenna won't work.



What is the gain figure on the Gray Hoverman without a reflector?


I understand the difficulty. The point is to try to get as deep into yellow as possible from both directions....to maximize the number of channels and stabilize them.



Any other suggestions for MTVike? Should he do an A/B setup or forget one direction?


----------



## rabbit73

Welcome to the forum Dieter.


Here is your tvfool report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...618ac14ba8610a 


The CM7777 is too much for your strong signals. The 8700 might be too much, maybe just the HDP269 to make up for coax and splitter loss. The loss caused by an attic vs outside is difficult to predict.


> Quote:
> Also, does anybody know if you need to lightning ground the antenna if it's in the attic? Do you have to go all out crazy or can you just ground it to something grounded in the attic just to dissipate static buildup?



Here is a thread about grounding an attic antenna:
*Need to Ground an Attic Antenna?* http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1016115 


I'll leave it to the big guns to give you further advice.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DieterW* /forum/post/16741502
> 
> 
> 
> I currently have the SS-3000 inside (not in the attic) and it works pretty well except for a couple of channels occasionally dropping out. But, I would like a more consistent signal on all channels and I'm willing to pay for it.



with the SS-3000, which channels are unstable and which ones you can not receive at all?


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MTVhike* /forum/post/16741704
> 
> 
> Why do I get a good signal on WEDW-49 and not on WSAH-42? Both are to the north, LOS, and WSAH is stronger!
> 
> WNET-13 and WPIX-11 are almost adjacent channels and both on the Empire State Building (I think), but I usually can't get 11.



I've been finding that how we think about signal strength for DTV is not the same as it was for NTSC. Many OTA viewers are finding that high signal strength isn't giving them reception. Try placing different size anttenuators in your cable line.


I've found that, depending upon where you place the attenuator, it makes a marked difference on DTV capabilities. I'm using a CM0265DSB pre-amp and a 25dB DA with splitters throughout the house distribution system. I have attenuators before the DA, before splitters, and after splitters.


It's an on-going experiment to find the right balance.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> No, still @ 5kw. They haven't applied for a power increase AFAIK.



Jeez, heh. I guess they just dont want the business.


On another note, Im now getting WPVI channel 6, after they quadrupled power, with my garage antenna, currently my foldable reflector-less single bay GH version. (when folded, it fits easily in my pocket, heh) Modeling shows 1.88 dBi raw gain with a 48.9 SWR on channel 6 with that uhf only antenna, heh. Net Gain, of course, is far far into the negative numbers. There are drop outs though, but its still oddly fairly consistant.


----------



## Jim Miller

Whoa! Just went to TVFool and used their new app which shows topography. When I enter my street addy they have me deep in the valley when I'm actually on top of the highest hill around.


Result is I go from 2 edge to 40db nm!


Think I'll toodle on down to Ratshack and pick up something returnable to take a gander at OTA!


jtm


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/16741251
> 
> 
> Do you feel the 91-XG is substantially better?
> 
> 
> Thanks!!



I've never had an xg91. I can tell you that from my experience the Televes DAT75 is easily better up and down the uhf band as is the CM4228 (both compared to the pr9032).


The published specs on the pr9032 claim comparable gain to the Triax Unix 100A (a band-specific antenna for uhf 14-38) for channels 14 and 32. I own and have extensively tested both and can confidently say they aren't even close.

http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload/Pr-9032.pdf 
http://www.njal.no/Doc/Triax%20produ...100element.pdf 


For the 100A gain chart, the trace at the left is for the A band model. Channel 21 on the graph is equivalent to channel 14 in the US.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16741728
> 
> 
> What is the gain figure on the Gray Hoverman without a reflector?
> 
> 
> I understand the difficulty. The point is to try to get as deep into yellow as possible from both directions....to maximize the number of channels and stabilize them.
> 
> 
> 
> Any other suggestions for MTVike? Should he do an A/B setup or forget one direction?



My suggestion for MTVike is to establish a reception baseline with a single antenna aimed in one direction at a time with no preamp to verify signal strength and antenna location. Next I'd add a low gain preamp to make sure that doesn't overload. Check stations in all directions. Once its known what can be received and what can't then its time to try tricks to combine two antennas.


In most cases red zone antenna combining must be done with filters such as Jointennas, UVSJs, and HLSJs.


----------



## DieterW




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16741945
> 
> 
> with the SS-3000, which channels are unstable and which ones you can not receive at all?



Real/Virtual channels:

21/36, 33/24, 43/42 all come in perfect 99.9% of the time only notice a skip every few days.


22/18 is good most of the time; notice maybe a skip or two each day.


7/7 is good on some days, and others (seemingly same weather) have severe dropouts.


49/54 is pretty bad most days, with a skip every 10 seconds or so.


The SS-3000 is indoors about 7' up, with it pointing towards the towers, but passing "through" the house next door (Line Of Site points through the next door neighbor's home). I plan on putting the new antenna in the attic at the west-most end of my house, so it should hopefully almost have direct LOS to the towers, at least close-by (there are homes in the way at the end of the street). I have a 1-story home, and I estimate the antenna will be about 12 feet over ground level.


Thanks for the great links to lightning protection. I haven't visited this forum much, and it's very active, so searches had not helped me much (and the 300++pages on a lot of the discussions is a bit overwhelming!).


Oh, and the SS-3000 is VERY sensitive to position in my case; moving/rotating it 1/4" can totally change everything. This was the best I could manage.


Roof is composite/fiberglass shingles. No reflective foil/insulation.


Thanks again!


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Sound advice.


Good Luck MTVmike!


----------



## stewboat

I am trying to pick up Portland, I do have a Rotor, but I pick up alot more from Portland than seattle. I started with a 3671 for VHF, as that is what I had used my previous homes in the area, but was disapointed in the results. The UHF only went fine until my 2 year old daughter's favorite station disapeard when OPB 10 went back to VHF. I have a 5' tripod on the peak of my roof, 11' of mast conected to a rotor and another 11' mast. The two mast's overlap approx 18" and I have a thrust bearing at the top, I don't have enough room above the rotor for a 3rd antenna. I have thought about a tower, but I am already over 40' off the ground. TV FOOL and photo of my antennas attached. I took the Y10 7-13 down, I tried it within a 25' radius of my UHF set up, up to 9' off the peak. Signal was marginal at best for 8 and 10while 12 didnt show up at all. I am still getting 2.1,2.2,6.1,13.1,13.2,15.1,15.2,15.3,15.4,22.1,22.2,22.3,32. 1,32.2, and 49.1 all the time without issue. 13.1 is tacoma wa, 15.1 has a repeater in Centalia WA, the rest is Portland. Thanks for the help, I'm still not sure what to try next. I'm afraid id I go to one 91XG I will loose some of the UHF I already get.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stewboat* /forum/post/16743707
> 
> 
> I'm still not sure what to try next. I'm afraid id I go to one 91XG I will loose some of the UHF I already get.



Are you ampifying the VHF antenna along with the 91-XG's? I see you have 6 analog & digital LOS UHF stations very closeby. I would try the YA-1713 unamplified, or run it on it's own independent amp and see what you get.


----------



## stewboat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/16743788
> 
> 
> Are you ampifying the VHF antenna along with the 91-XG's? I see you have 6 analog & digital LOS UHF stations very closeby. I would try the YA-1713 unamplified, or run it on it's own independent amp and see what you get.



Yes I am using a Chanelmaster 7777 pre-amp with sperate vhf/uhf leads. My understanding on this pre-amp was the two were completley seperat aslong as I have the switch se to seperat rather than combined? I tried a CM3671 antenna without the pre-amp for VHF analog about a year ago, with poor results. The only close by LOS station I have ever goten 19 (15.1-15.4). I have never been able to get the others. I even tried using both the CM3671 combo and one 91XG without an amp for uhf, and the 6.1 mile stations just dont come in, at all. If you still think I should try the Y10 without an amp, I will. Thanks.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Although Ive been drubbed by conventional wisdom purveryors here, Pete Putman the HDTVexpert, doesnt seem daunted about using his CM 7777 amplifier....at stations 20 miles away with medium gain antennas. In fact from this and other test on indoor antennas that he has done in the past, it seems to indicate that the CM7777 in fact is helping much more than hurting reception....with nice 8VSB waveforms I might add. In fact in this particular article, the CM7777 makes the Winegard 269 look bad.



> Quote:
> Five (Antennas) To Get Ready
> 
> 
> PETER PUTMAN, CTS
> 
> http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/Five_Antennas.html



Specifically this chart....in which all antennas are amped with the CM7777 or have no amplifier....except for the Winegard SS2000 which is a SS1000 with a Winegard 269 amplifier....allowing for direct comparison. Additionally, look at the figures for the other antennas which all bring in many more channels with good clean signals than unamped.


Call me a uppity newbie, but Ill stick with my recommendation.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stewboat* /forum/post/16743890
> 
> 
> If you still think I should try the Y10 without an amp, I will. Thanks.



I would certainly try it. In the analog days, I remember strong UHF stations causing herringbone patterns on some weak VHF channels when I amplified them together. With separate amps for each antenna, the problem went away.


----------



## stewboat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/16743981
> 
> 
> I would certainly try it. In the analog days, I remember strong UHF stations causing herringbone patterns on some weak VHF channels when I amplified them together. With separate amps for each antenna, the problem went away.



At this point I have nothing to loose, it's just one more trip on the roof. I'll let you know, thanks.


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16743924
> 
> 
> Although Ive been drubbed by conventional wisdom purveryors here, Pete Putman the HDTVexpert, doesnt seem daunted about using his CM 7777 amplifier....at stations 20 miles away with medium gain antennas.



He's in the Allentown, PA area and the antennas aren't all that high, meaning he's probably receiving most of those stations via diffraction.


On the other hand, I'm 16 miles from Roxborough with fewer hills, and am also getting good results with a CM7777. I needed it before the transition to receive WHYY's squirrel-powered signal reliably, but it's still there and working fine. So yeah, I think the CM7777s capacity for handling high signal strengths is underrated.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16743924
> 
> 
> Although Ive been drubbed by conventional wisdom purveryors here, Pete Putman the HDTVexpert, doesnt seem daunted about using his CM 7777 amplifier....at stations 20 miles away with medium gain antennas. In fact from this and other test on indoor antennas that he has done in the past, it seems to indicate that the CM7777 in fact is helping much more than hurting reception....with nice 8VSB waveforms I might add. In fact in this particular article, the CM7777 makes the Winegard 269 look bad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Specifically this chart....in which all antennas are amped with the CM7777 or have no amplifier....except for the Winegard SS2000 which is a SS1000 with a Winegard 269 amplifier....allowing for direct comparison. Additionally, look at the figures for the other antennas which all bring in many more channels with good clean signals than unamped.
> 
> 
> Call me a uppity newbie, but Ill stick with my recommendation.



The SS1000/2000 has got to be the world's worst UHF (& VHF) antenna...

in both performance and price...and a Preamp won't help either...

See Bob Chases's on-air comparison test:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9332997


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16740016
> 
> 
> 45 miles from the towers is the boonies.
> 
> 
> I have a CM7777 hoooked up to a CM4221 and 50ft of RG6....most stations at -70dbm one at -40dbm, no problems here.
> 
> 
> But I understand your assertion. Perhaps the 269 is the way to go, but he has in his possession a CM7777 and a RS 4 way distro amp. Of those 2, Id try the CM7777 first, by itself.



My basic point is that it is usually best to go on the conservative side when amplifying DTV signals. The 7777 may in fact work for the OP. He may find it works better by placing it after the grounding block if there are overloading issues once the antenna comes out of the attic. I would personally rather use the appropriate pre-amp rather than worry about trying to start attenuating signals. It kind of defeats the purpose of amplifying right at the antenna in the first place.


I was hoping to finally be able to use the very forgiving Winegard HDP-269 at my location once the analogs went dark. I still "lose" one very weak station once the pre-amp is added into the system anywhere near the antenna.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is a chart on digtalhome, that holl_ands did some figuring on, with max input with 2 strong signals and amplifier overload. (plus additional figures for 3 strong signals and so on and so forth).

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/atta...0&d=1229323619 


Looks like with just one station at -28dbm (Real Channel 23 Telemundo) he should be OK. If you include the other 2 which are also off axis at 100 and 3 degrees (which helps attenuate the antenna gain), I think he is still in the game....you can always add the amp in down the line or run an attenuator from the attenna. Id stick with the CM7777.


For the CM7777 on UHF for 2 strong signals the overload figure is -36dbm.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *slush1422* /forum/post/16740118
> 
> 
> 326 pages in this forum is a lot to go through. I cant tell if I need two antennas or can do just one? We currently have a set top indoor antenna and want to upgrade to an outdoor roof mounted one. Living in the Los Angeles area, we have experienced the same thing others have where we lost channels 7-13. Any suggestions for a one antenna solution that will get 7-13 well as other stations? Here is my info from TV Fool:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...618ab3c4be902a


* http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=HD7694P *


----------



## MTVhike

I couldn't access the digitalhome forum; could EscapeVelocity supply a synopsis?


Since yesterday, I greatly improved my CT reception from the North by adding an amplifier (RS 259; not the best, I know, but convenient) and a VHF antenna for WTNH.


I also discovered that for my TV, if I type in the real RF channel number, a channel not picked up on the scan will appear. The only problem is if the number for the real channel is already used by another station as a virtual channel. This procedure allowed me to add several stations, including WNJN 51/50 in Montclair, NJ and WGGB 40 in Holyoke, MA.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Go here, you will have to register to download the pdf. They are really territorial over there. Ive noticed that a lot of Satelitte and AV forums are like that.


First post, attached file.

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=42426


----------



## MTVhike

I still need my basic technical questions answered:

1. How do you determine the RF signal level on the end of my cable, knowing all the antenna and amp gains and various losses, and the signal power at my location from TVfool.

2. How do I know if my amp is overloading.

3. Why is RG6 considered better than RG59 and both better than twin lead. I thought twin lead has the lowest loss, and in a low-interference noise environment, that should be better. On the other hand, for short runs (


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Whoa! Just went to TVFool and used their new app which shows topography. When I enter my street addy they have me deep in the valley when I'm actually on top of the highest hill around.
> 
> Result is I go from 2 edge to 40db nm!



Probably not completely de-bugged yet. Ive also seen some weird results from Canadians who enter in logitude/latitude. Seems some are supposed to get better reception when the antenna is on the ground vs at 25ft, heh.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MTVhike* /forum/post/16748801
> 
> 
> I still need my basic technical questions answered:
> 
> 
> 4. At my location, I still can't get receive WPIX-RF11 (power level -67.3), while WNET-RF13 (Pwr -67.1) comes in like gangbusters. Both transmitters are on the Empire State Building, so I should get the signal almost equally well with my channel 13 folded dipole antenna, unless TVfool is wrong and WPIX is not putting out the ERP TVfool used for their calculation.



The transmit antennas on the ESB are not really omnidirectional.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

1. Measure them with a signal analyzer.

2. Measure them with a signal analyzer.

3. RG6 isnt that much more expensive, its a no brainer....might as well get quad shielding as well.

4. Radio transmissions on different frequencies from different transmitters and recieved by whatever antenna at whatever location with a myriad of materials, trees, hills, obstructions, interference ad naseum.... are devious like that. (PS, TVfool is not the God given truth....accurately reflecting reality).


Maybe someone else can help you with better answers.


----------



## MTVhike

I got the preamp comparison chart EscapeVelocity recommended. It also answers my first question, above: - take the TVfool Receive Signal in dBm, add the various gains, and subtract the losses. Since they say to convert to Peak power by adding 7 dB, is that the value we want to use?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Yes, but I wouldnt fret over it too much MTVhike, you have the CM7777 in your possession, work on the rest of the system. In the future you can purchase a 269 if you are feeling deprived of something.



What you cant do is know exactly what the real signal level is going into the preamp without a signal analyzer. You are guessing on transmission (via TVfool, plus attic building material losses, and antenna anomalies and averaged or smoothed gain figures, VSWR, off axis antenna gain attenuation etc).


----------



## MTVhike

My strongest signal from the West is WLIW-21 at -49.8. Adding the antenna gain of 10.8 dB gives -39; adding another 7 for peak power and another 6 for other losses (guess), gives -24. The overload signal level for the CM7777 is -38.8, so I guess I don't have a problem, right?


I posted this before I got the message from Escape Velocity, above. I am fretting about this so I can resolve these issues before I climb onto my 45 degree, 50 foot high roof!


----------



## Jim Miller

Both the interactive and old version show 2edge and I always thought that was strange since we are so high up. But the old version didn't show the actual location on a map with any detail.


The new version shows me down in a valley which explains the 2edge designation. Coming up to where we actually are is a 200ft rise and now shows LOS which is actually what I expect.


I don't have my GPS available until this weekend and when I get it I'll plug in the actual coordinates and see what results from that.


I just did a scan with no antenna at all and got hits on 6 out of 7 stations that I would expect to see. Not enough signal strength to get a picture however.


jtm


----------



## ctdish

I think in your calculation you add the 7 for peak power.

John


----------



## holl_ands

Preamp Overload Calculator, with detailed explanations, can be found here:
www.imageevent.com/holl_ands/files


----------



## MTVhike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/16749001
> 
> 
> I think in your calculation you add the 7 for peak power.
> 
> John



I think I calculated the overload level wrong. My strongest signal from the West is WLIW-21 at -49.8. Adding the antenna gain of 10.8 dB gives -39, and subtracting 6 dB for other losses; (guess), gives -45 dB. To convert to peak level, I have to add 7 dB, giving -38. The overload signal level for the CM7777 is -38.8, so it looks as if I will overload the preamp by 0.8 dB; however, the next strongest signal in that direction is 15 dB weaker, so it looks as if I will just squeak by, right? Right now, I am getting 70% signal; if I add a splitter as a 3.5 dB attenuator and the signal gets better, I guess I was overloading; if not, I wasn't.


Thanks, again


----------



## bmcent1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MTVhike* /forum/post/16748801
> 
> 
> I still need my basic technical questions answered:
> 
> 1. How do you determine the RF signal level on the end of my cable, knowing all the antenna and amp gains and various losses, and the signal power at my location from TVfool.


 http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/sizing.html 



> Quote:
> 3. Why is RG6 considered better than RG59 and both better than twin lead. I thought twin lead has the lowest loss, and in a low-interference noise environment, that should be better. On the other hand, for short runs (


----------



## engage

Hello to the forum. I would like to fix this problem. The cabin is in northern Minnesota with transmitters 30 to 50 miles away. I know I'll need an antenna, a rotor and probably a pre amp but I don't know which ones. I've been lurking for a while and I bow down to the vast resevoir of knowledge that frequents this forum. The Cabin sits on top of a bluff so if I put the antenna on the roof I should get line of sight if an eighty foot Norway doesn't get in the way. Here is the Lat 46.75 Lon -93.27 I don't think I can post links yet. Thanks, Tom


----------



## engage

My forth post whoo hoo. maybe the links will work for TV fool data http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...618a704fb1039e


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Try a paper clip antenna Jim, till you get something better. Just unfold and stick in the 75 ohm input.


----------



## Jim Miller

I found pair of rabbit ears and hooked them up and got all but the RF11 and RF13 station. The rabbit ears are poorly positioned and the TV and stereo gear are between them and the desired sigs.


I'll rearrange tomorrow and I'm pretty sure all will be satisfactory.


tnx

jim


----------



## arxaw

Extend the rabbit ears 13" each and lay them down as horizontally as possible.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *engage* /forum/post/16749279
> 
> 
> My forth post whoo hoo. maybe the links will work for TV fool data http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...618a704fb1039e



Welcome to the forum Tom.


Your signals at the cabin are very weak. You will need the very best UHF/VHF-hi combo antenna or better yet, separate high-gain UHF and VHF-hi antennas with a good preamp, mounted in-the-clear, aimed at 87 degrees, and as high up as you can manage.


Sometimes, when the terrain between the transmitter and the receiving antenna affects the signal, higher is not always better. Read about Peter Putman's experiments at his brother's cabin in Vermont:



> Quote:
> Back in May of 2007, I wired up my brother’s house in a remote corner of southwestern Vermont to receive UHF terrestrial digital TV broadcasts from Albany, NY
> 
> 
> The location was challenging because the house sits on the steep side of a narrow valley, with its view towards the southwest and the 54 mile-distant Helderberg Mountain TV transmitters completely blocked by a hill that is 100 to 200 feet taller and less than ½ mile away.
> 
> Nevertheless, I was able to successfully pull in four strong UHF DTV channels by exploiting a signal propagation phenomenon known as “knife edge refraction,” wherein radio and TV signals on VHF and UHF frequencies are actually bent downwards as they pass over the edge of hills and mountains, providing better-than-expected reception in their shadows.


 http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/DT...Revisited.html


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/16748534
> 
> 
> I have found it best in the signal distribution system to get the right balance with the appropriate antenna and amplification and not use attenuation. You are just getting by with that setup. I tend to avoid all that stuff.



I've got a tricky situation where I'm trying to acquire stations on 2-edge down to around -114dBm and I have four locals at -31.6, -36.3, -37.1, and -47.9 LOS (two more (-47.7 & -47.9) will come on-line before the year is out).


I'm also feeding five recording devices from a 50' tower.


----------



## mirayge

I've been using a CM7778 pre-amp (seperate inputs and FM trap on) with an RCA ANT1500 omni and rabbit ears spread to 30 inches for channel 9. RG6 runs from the attic to the power injector in the basement, then to my Zenith CECB (total run 50ft.) I have the flat side of the 1500 pointed toward Peoria to recieve those stations late at night (just in time for the news.) This has worked well for a single room until the foliage came out and extreme storms started. My ultimate plan is to recieve my locals plus Peoria and WSEC-DT maybe from the attic with enough strength for a few splits. I plan on adding a tower and maybe an XG-91 on a seperate run eventually for DXing. My question is if there is a better UHF omni or reflectorless wide angle around 90 degrees front and back. I would combine this with a narrow beam antenna for 331 to 348 degrees and a VHF cut for rf9. Any ideas?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bmcent1* /forum/post/16749216
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/sizing.html
> 
> 
> RG6 has less cable loss. For short runs RG59 would be fine I guess.
> 
> 
> Twin lead doesn't match the impedence of most antennas so you need a balun at both ends, so you would have more balun loss. Also, it's not shielded, so it seems it would pick up more noise. Anything can contribute to noise and drown out your signals, including computers and any electronic devices in your home. Possibly your neighbors' as well.



Twin lead suffers higher loss when placed next to other objects, such as

when routed through walls.

It also has much, much higher loss when wet....or damp....or iced over....

Plastic type also has a reputation for cracking over time, letting in moisture.

Open ladder line can avoid these latter two problems....except ice buildup....


PS: Since nearly all inputs today are coax, you're still gonna need a balun at the TV.

So EITHER has a single balun, whether at the TV with twin lead or at the antenna with coax.

And no, you don't avoid the balun loss if you use a 300-ohm input Preamp, cuz the

balun in INSIDE the Preamp, converting to unbalanced for input to the RF transistor.


----------



## engage

Thanks for the reply Rabbit73. Before the switch I got four stations reliably with the roof antenna. I am assuming they were all from the same Duluth antenna farm. I think I have an unobstucted path to that farm.


Tom


----------



## MTVhike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16751681
> 
> 
> Twin lead suffers higher loss when placed next to other objects, such as
> 
> when routed through walls.
> 
> It also has much, much higher loss when wet....or damp....or iced over....
> 
> Plastic type also has a reputation for cracking over time, letting in moisture.
> 
> Open ladder line can avoid these latter two problems....except ice buildup....
> 
> 
> PS: Since nearly all inputs today are coax, you're still gonna need a balun at the TV.
> 
> So EITHER has a single balun, whether at the TV with twin lead or at the antenna with coax.
> 
> And no, you don't avoid the balun loss if you use a 300-ohm input Preamp, cuz the
> 
> balun in INSIDE the Preamp, converting to unbalanced for input to the RF transistor.



Currently I have a UHF antenna with a 7777 preamp mounted on its mast. I want to add a home made VHF dipole and install it about 6 - 10 feet away (horizontally). It's native impedance is 300 ohms, so should I put a balun on it and run RG6 or 59 to the VHF input of the preamp, or run twin lead to a balun on the preamp input?


Thanks, Mike


----------



## Jim Miller

Just a followup: repositioned the rabbit ears and I now get a solid signal on all 7 stations.


For anyone living in a hilly terrain make sure to check out the new TVFool application and make sure that your location is properly placed.


For us there was the difference between 2Edge and LOS and 40db of noise margin due to the 200ft altitude error!


I was previously planning to put a mongo Weingard in the attic instead of the rabbit ears that are now proving more than adequate.


jtm


----------



## cpcat

The loss over 6-10 feet using rg6 is negligible for vhf. Twist or solder each end of the twinlead to a lead on the balun at the antenna then run rg6 from there to the preamp.


----------



## Jim Miller

Since TV transmitting antennas are all verticals and the local reception mode is LOS wouldn't a vertical orientation of a rabbit ear dipole be more appropriate to match the vertical polarization of the transmitted signal?


tnx

jtm


----------



## ctdish

Actually all TV xmitters send out a horizontal signal with a few adding a vertical component. The antennas all have a radiating component that is horizontal but it is often inside a vertical cylinder having a lot of the radiating sections stacked vertically.

John


----------



## Jim Miller

i'm having trouble picturing this. is there anything that might show this on the web somewhere?


tnx

jtm


----------



## nordloewelabs

i'm curious too. any good links explaining this?


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MTVhike* /forum/post/16755123
> 
> 
> I want to add a home made VHF dipole and install it about 6 - 10 feet away (horizontally). It's native impedance is 300 ohms, so should I put a balun on it and run RG6 or 59 to the VHF input of the preamp, or run twin lead to a balun on the preamp input?



A dipole will be in the 50Ω - 70Ω range, a folded dipole will be in the 300Ω range.


----------



## mlmahon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jim Miller* /forum/post/16756051
> 
> 
> i'm having trouble picturing this. is there anything that might show this on the web somewhere?
> 
> 
> tnx
> 
> jtm



Here's a picture to help you 'picture this". This pic is of a VHF channel 4 'Batwing' transmitting antenna. Notice the horizontal grids on the batwing panels for horizontal polarization. Also notice the 6 vertically stacked batwing bays to increase antenna gain.


----------



## rbarbier

Ok...


It is "clear" that the Clearstream 5 in not working for the High VHF stations for me (I can get a lock some of the time but it is not very reliable). Do you think this antenna will work for me?

http://www.antennacraft.net/pdfs/Y5-7-13.pdf 


Here is my TVfool info:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...618a9878f09890 


I already get great UHF reception with the Clearstream 4 and will keep that of course. I also plan on having the Y5-7-13 on my apartment balcony on the second floor. There will be a small wall in front of it (currently the C4 has the wall in front but I still get great reception). These antennas will be ran into the 7777.


Also, I notice Solidsignal is backordered on these. Where else can I locate one to buy?


Thanks.


----------



## Digital Rules

The Y5-7-13 is light years better for VHF-HI than any of the Clearstream spaceship antennas. Your reception should improve, but there are still no guarantees that it will be 100% reliable. Brief signal interruptions are more common with VHF; even with the best antenna.


You can do a google search to check availability for the antenna. It is definitely in short supply these days.


----------



## serndipity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jim Miller* /forum/post/16755708
> 
> 
> Since TV transmitting antennas are all verticals and the local reception mode is LOS wouldn't a vertical orientation of a rabbit ear dipole be more appropriate to match the vertical polarization of the transmitted signal?jtm



While the transmitting tower is vertical (e.g. to achieve elevation for the actual antenna), the antenna design at the top emits a horizontal polarized signal.


----------



## MacariahAVS

We finally dumped Dish Network as our 18mo subscription is finally over! I hated the quality of the signal and esp the costs. So am making a jump to OTA. But, in doing so I am so thoroughly confused about which is the best antenna to get for my area and even then, it all becomes so subjective.


I've come down to this and you are all welcome to assail me or give me a pat on the head. It looks like the 91xg may be the antenna of choice for my specific needs. But, I think a omnidirectional might be better. I've seen the Winegard 8200 and similar to be promising and of course the Channel Master 4228. So many variables, too many subjective possibilities I am hopelessly at a loss as to which antenna is best for my situation. I know I have to just jump in and try it out but sure would like to save some money and perhaps gets some good advice from you people before I do make the plunge.


I've got a two story brick with a window (in attic about 25') facing east (and west) ends but can set the antenna on an angle to face SE where most of the signals seem to reside. Tulsa is 60 miles as the crow flies. I've got OKC @ 100mi sw and Wichita another 100 miles NW. My question: Which is the better antenna to use for my particular circumstance?


Here are the tvfool specs:
tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3daa05f7981649ee 


I look forward to your info and help. Thank you in advance..

Mac


----------



## holl_ands

If outdoors, the clear choice would be coax to balun at antenna vice twin-lead.

Either way, you need a balun....


If you haven't read it yet, I analyzed Hi-VHF Folded Dipoles and Square Loops here:
www.imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis 

Square Loop has slightly higher Net Gain, esp for larger wire/tubing sizes.

A Folded Dipole or a Square Loop is only $10 using 1/2-in Type M Copper Pipe and 4 Elbows.

[Smaller sizes are also usable, but SWR isn't as good on CH7 & CH13.]


Hi-VHF Circular Loop could be readily made using 5/16-in Copper Tubing, which is

already "bent". Analysis is on my "To-Do" list....


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16760322
> 
> 
> If outdoors, the clear choice would be coax to balun at antenna vice twin-lead.
> 
> Either way, you need a balun....
> 
> 
> If you haven't read it yet, I analyzed Hi-VHF Folded Dipoles and Square Loops here:
> www.imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis
> 
> Square Loop has slightly higher Net Gain, esp for larger wire/tubing sizes.
> 
> A Folded Dipole or a Square Loop is only $10 using 1/2-in Type M Copper Pipe and 4 Elbows.
> 
> [Smaller sizes are also usable, but SWR isn't as good on CH7 & CH13.]
> 
> 
> Hi-VHF Circular Loop could be readily made using 5/16-in Copper Tubing, which is
> 
> already "bent". Analysis is on my "To-Do" list....




Since I bought the AntennaCraft Y5713, what 75 Ohm Transformer should I use to connect my RG6 with? I really care about channels 7 and 11 the most. Would any 75 Ohm Transformer work?


Thanks.


----------



## cpcat

I like the Channelmaster baluns. They are available at starkelectronics.com or at least they were the last I checked.


----------



## Don F.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16758119
> 
> 
> Ok...
> 
> 
> It is "clear" that the Clearstream 5 in not working for the High VHF stations for me (I can get a lock some of the time but it is not very reliable). Do you think this antenna will work for me?



The Clearstream c4 did not deliver either... The FCC maybe interested in your experience... They got mine...


----------



## cpcat

In case anyone is interested, the quad on top are Triax Unix 100A's (uhf 14-38 specific) and the bottom dual are Antennacraft Y10 7-13's (vhf 7-13). Combiners are Lindsay uhf quad and vhf dual models. Pre's are Sitco PA24 for uhf and CM7777 for vhf (vhf input only).


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don F.* /forum/post/16762424
> 
> 
> The Clearstream c4 did not deliver either... The FCC maybe interested in your experience... They got mine...



Clearstream C4 works great for all UHF stations in Los Angeles. I sent back the Clearstream C5 today because it did not work for the Hi VHF like it stated.


I'll see how the Y5-7-13 works when I get it.


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mlmahon* /forum/post/16757593
> 
> 
> Here's a picture to help you 'picture this". This pic is of a VHF channel 4 'Batwing' transmitting antenna. Notice the horizontal grids on the batwing panels for horizontal polarization. Also notice the 6 vertically stacked batwing bays to increase antenna gain.



Hi mlmahon,

Thanks for the picture and information. I'm curious about several things:


1. Do the vertically stacked 6 bays have the effect of "flattening" the radiation pattern in the vertical (i.e. squash the donut)? I'm presuming the antenna has an omnidirectional pattern in the horizontal plane. I don't see anything in the antennas that lead me to believe there is a directional pattern. Or, could they do that with phasing transmit signals to the various bays.


2. How are the antenna's fed? I don't see a feed point.


3. I've always wondered about the batwing antenna design itself, why? That is to say, why does the antenna have that shape. Is there a gain or side-lobe supression advantage? Is it some multiple of the frequency? Or, is it multifrequency (within a certain VHF or UHF bandwidth)?


4. Is that shape typically used on UHF and VHF frequencies? Looks kind of small for a VHF transmitter. Or, is there another type of antenna used?


BTW a related thread on OTA signal polarization is located here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post16260443 


Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Cheers

Satcom


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The Y5-7-13 is light years better for VHF-HI than any of the Clearstream spaceship antennas.



And much better on the wallet, too.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> But, I think a omnidirectional might be better.



Why would you think that when most of your signals are SE ? Mounting the antenna outdoors higher than 25 ft is your best option. Even so, dont count on getting any of the stations with a negative NM. (If youre very lucky, you may occasionally get some of them) I would get the old CM4228, as then you should also get channel 8.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> 1. Do the vertically stacked 6 bays have the effect of "flattening" the radiation pattern in the vertical (i.e. squash the donut)?



1) Yes, vertical stacking does that. http://www.kyes.com/antenna/stackluge.html 

2) From that distance in the picture, its impossible to see the relatively small connection point, heh.

3) Well, the batwing shape itself is very structurally durable, an important consideration. It certainly isnt the only type antenna used however.


----------



## PCTools

Well, the CM 7778 is sold.


Wow, I will have to watch the site for more of these posts.


Just kinda tells you how much of a mark-up is really with those.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16760581
> 
> 
> Since I bought the AntennaCraft Y5713, what 75 Ohm Transformer should I use to connect my RG6 with? I really care about channels 7 and 11 the most. Would any 75 Ohm Transformer work?
> 
> 
> Thanks.



Specs for AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 say 300-ohm, so it requires a standard 4:1 300-to-75-ohm Balun.


Standard 300-to-75-ohm Baluns I measured several years ago were all under 1 dB for VHF,

but were quite a bit more at UHF, some more than others:
www.imageevent.com/holl_ands/files 

[Accuracy is +/- 0.5 dB, since I no longer have access to a room full of Test Equipment.]


More recently, johnrmckee measured 0.5 dB VHF/UHF loss for the Outdoor Philips Balun.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=15851345 


And that's about all we know.....until someone makes some more measurements...


----------



## NTNgod




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/16765497
> 
> 
> If anyone wants a Channel Master 7778 amplifier, it is listed on the Best Buy Employee site for $2.51.



Looks like an Ebay-style auction to me?


----------



## PCTools

No, I would forbid those kinda posts.


This is available for Best Buy Employees only.


Requires account activation thru corporate.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NTNgod* /forum/post/16765761
> 
> 
> Looks like an Ebay-style auction to me?


----------



## holl_ands

*FYI: DTV Transmit Antennas:*
http://www.dielectric.com/broadcast/...ementation.pdf 

SuperTurnstile consists of several vertically stacked Crossed Bowties.

Each Crossed Bowtie consists of a Left and Right Bowtie (elongated vertically more than usual)

which provide coverage North and South. A second Bowtie at right angles covers East and West.

Each Bowtie is fed at the center point, just like the usual 1-Bay Bowtie.


As more and more Batwings are vertically stacked, the antenna pattern gets narrower

and narrower with respect to ELEVATION, while remaining omnidirectional in AZIMUTH:
http://www.dielectric.com/broadcast/...TF-batwing.pdf 


Transmit Antennas may use something resembling a DB-2 (with reflector)

or a simple dipole with reflector, wrapping 3 or 4 around the mast.

Multiples of these are vertically stacked to achieve the required Gain:
http://www.sitel.it/CATALOGO%20KATHREIN.pdf 

At UHF, slot radiators are fairly common....a metal cylinder with holes.


Elliptically or Circularly polarized transmitters generate both Horizontal and Vertically polarized

signals, usually accomplished by two separate or intermingled stacked arrays, where each

vertically polarized element is physically rotated 90-degrees.


Circular polarization can come from Crossed Arrows....or Helical Elements (these are for FM):
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an.../P10301401.JPG 
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...%20Antenna.jpg 
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an.../P10301371.JPG 

[These hi-rez images are somewhat under 1 MB each.]


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/16765497
> 
> 
> Well, the CM 7778 is sold...



Just curious, how much did it sell for?



> Quote:
> Just kinda tells you how much of a mark-up is really with those.



Not really. There are enough internet resellers for that product that the internet prices would be much lower than they are now if the opening bid price was anywhere near the wholesale price for that item.


I think the "Buy it Now" price of nearly $60 gives a better idea of what the seller expected the auction to fetch. Was it a closeout, or an open box item?


----------



## iowegian3




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MacariahAVS* /forum/post/16760082
> 
> 
> We finally dumped Dish Network as our 18mo subscription is finally over! I hated the quality of the signal and esp the costs. So am making a jump to OTA. But, in doing so I am so thoroughly confused about which is the best antenna to get for my area and even then, it all becomes so subjective.
> 
> 
> I've come down to this and you are all welcome to assail me or give me a pat on the head. It looks like the 91xg may be the antenna of choice for my specific needs. But, I think a omnidirectional might be better. I've seen the Winegard 8200 and similar to be promising and of course the Channel Master 4228. So many variables, too many subjective possibilities I am hopelessly at a loss as to which antenna is best for my situation. I know I have to just jump in and try it out but sure would like to save some money and perhaps gets some good advice from you people before I do make the plunge.
> 
> 
> I've got a two story brick with a window (in attic about 25') facing east (and west) ends but can set the antenna on an angle to face SE where most of the signals seem to reside. Tulsa is 60 miles as the crow flies. I've got OKC @ 100mi sw and Wichita another 100 miles NW. My question: Which is the better antenna to use for my particular circumstance?
> 
> 
> Here are the tvfool specs:
> tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3daa05f7981649ee
> 
> 
> I look forward to your info and help. Thank you in advance..
> 
> Mac



Concentrate on Tulsa. Wichita & OKC are too far away to be reliable.


Try mounting in the attic, you may get lucky pointing through the roof. But I'd be prepared to mount on the roof at 60 miles out. Cable: RG6 or better. You may need a pre-amp mounted at the antenna. If splitting the antenna signal to two or more sets, use a distribution amp.


For a combo VHF-UHF solution, I'd try the Winegard HD7698P This would be the simplest solution IMO. You could use other combo V-U antennas. Remember that 2 and 6 are now on UHF, so don't bother with the old monsters with 7 foot long elements.


You might save some money by using separate VHF and UHF antennas, and you could get extra gain as well. Look at the AntennaCraft 10 element HI-VHF antenna and the UHF antenna you mentioned above AntennasDirect 91XG Be sure to mount the two antennas at least 5 feet apart on the mast; too close and the signal will suffer.


Being Iowegian, I'm biased toward the Winegard and Antennacraft products, both based in Burlington. Especially Winegard, good antennas plus support: Winegard forums


----------



## PCTools

PM'd.


I am thinking about picking some the RG6 cable they have.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/16765978
> 
> 
> Just curious, how much did it sell for?


----------



## holl_ands

Hi-VHF Circular Loop had slightly higher Raw & Net Gain than Square Loop,

despite slightly smaller diameter, using "3/8-in I.D." Copper Tubing (actual OD=0.514-in)

for Circular Loop & 1/2-in Type M Copper Pipe (OD=0.569-in) for Square Loop:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/sqloop 

From the Square Loop results, you can see what happens with smaller tubing/wire sizes....


----------



## holl_ands

*More Hi-VHF Antennas Analyzed...and Tested:*


I analyzed and found "optimum" sizes for *Hi-VHF Folded Dipole, Square Loop and Circular Loops*:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis 


Surprise!!! *Folded Dipole* (1/2-in Pipe) received CH7, 9, 11 and 13 from Mt Wilson (70-miles in L.A.):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/smart 

It beat out the *DX Antennas DTA-5000* and *RCA ANT2000 Smart Antennas*...but winner was *YA-1713*.


In the attic (with lots of metal in the way) the big *YA-1713* and even bigger *Stacked Zig-Zag LPA*

could only receive CH7 and CH9, but we're still searching for better locations...after it cools off some...

Local CH12 (only 2.7-miles away) causes adjacent channel interference to CH11 and CH13,

so we rotate antenna while watching/listening to CH12 to null it out....this isn't an easy process:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/zigzaglpa/zigzagnoboom 


BTW: CM4228 UHF 8-Bay, by itself, only received CH9 prior to adding VHF antenna. Although we

didn't try to null out CH12 prior to making the upgrade, I doubt it would get CH7, CH11 or CH13....


----------



## arxaw

A friend was going to get a CM 4228HD, but I talked him out of it after someone else I know bought one and had to make a lot of modifications to it before it would work.


So now, he is considering an Antennacraft U8000 8bay , which I've never seen. Is anyone here familiar with it or using one? Does anyone know if it has any high VHF gain?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> So now, he is considering an Antennacraft U8000 8bay, which I've never seen. Is anyone here familiar with it or using one? Does anyone know if it has any high VHF gain?



Because the reflectors on that horizontal double bay arent connected, probably no vhf-hi gain at all. But you could put a piece of 36 X 36 inch or so, 2 X 4 inch mesh on those reflectors and then get some vhf-hi gain on it. (or some 36 inch rods on the reflector) Still would be cheaper than the CM4228HD.


----------



## Satcom15

holl_ands,

Thanks for the information. I did not realize the batwing antennas are so large. I was deceived by the images I guess, there was no sense of scale. Looking at the product brochure and the dimensions, they are pretty sizable and heavy. Also, I'm wondering about feedline. One brochure referenced 1 5/8 in coax. Sounds like Andrew LDF7-50 or equivalent. I've done a fair amount of work with LDF5-50 (7/8 in diam) and a little bit with LDF12-50 (2-1/4 in diam). Working with it in a very cold climate is not particularly pleasant.










Pretty cool

satcom


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16766721
> 
> 
> Because the reflectors on that horizontal double bay arent connected, probably no vhf-hi gain at all. But you could put a piece of 36 X 36 inch or so, 2 X 4 inch mesh on those reflectors and then get some vhf-hi gain on it. (or some 36 inch rods on the reflector) Still would be cheaper than the CM4228HD.



And would probably work a helluva lot better than the 4228HD. Too bad ChannelMaster took a perfectly good design and ruined it.


----------



## cgulliver

I returned the Omnidirectional (15-1634) antenna to RS and grabbed a CM3016, CM4220M and a VHF/UHF combiner. What a dramatic improvement. Everything is 90%+ except for ION (14) which is 65-70%. Is ION any good?


RS tried to sell me one of these and I took a pass... http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2253765 


This setup is not as aesthetically pleasing as the omni but it works...


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cgulliver* /forum/post/16768770
> 
> 
> This setup is not as aesthetically pleasing as the omni but it works...



If you want something that is more aesthetically pleasing for not a lot of money, replace the CM 3016 with the Antennacraft Y5-7-13 Hi-band.($23.00 plus shipping) Put the 4220 at the top of the mast, and the Y5-7-13 3.5' below it. This may help you with ION 14 also, because your present antennas are too close to each other.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cgulliver* /forum/post/16768770
> 
> 
> RS tried to sell me one of these and I took a pass... http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2253765



Good move. Unless all your stations are UHF, it's pretty much useless.


----------



## arxaw

Something else you can do to help hide an antenna if there are trees behind it (when viewed from the street):

Paint the antenna and mast with Krylon ultra-flat camo paint. Olive gray/green color works well.


Below is an antenna painted with camo paint. There is a 4221 4-bay screen antenna on top and a VHF antenna near the bottom.











Here's a view from the street:


----------



## JimP

I did something similar to a satellite dish.


----------



## PCTools

It is stealth technology.


I wonder if you take a performance hit with the paint?


----------



## JimP




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/16769190
> 
> 
> It is stealth technology.
> 
> 
> I wonder if you take a performance hit with the paint?



Probably, but not as bad as having to deal with neighbors.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/16769190
> 
> 
> It is stealth technology.














> Quote:
> I wonder if you take a performance hit with the paint?



No.


You can get Krylon ultra flat camo paint at walmart, etc. or online.


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP* /forum/post/16769343
> 
> 
> Probably, but not as bad as having to deal with neighbors.



Honestly, don't people have other things to worry about? These are probably the same type of people that insist on shake shingle roofs in high wildfire risk areas for "aesthetic reasons"










Just reminder and for folks that might not know, HOA CC&Rs can not ban installation of antennas and the small direct to home satellite antennas per FCC rules. You are free to install outside antennas (with a few limitations). See the FCC website for details. Here are a couple of links:

www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/consumerdish 
www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard 


Cheers


----------



## arxaw

Satcom15, I agree.

Anyone who would ***** about something as hard to see as the antenna combo in the above pictures needs to get a life.


----------



## JimP

....but someone's going to complain about "camo antenna" in big letters on the front of the house.


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP* /forum/post/16772718
> 
> 
> ....but someone's going to complain about "camo antenna" in big letters on the front of the house.



Which begs the question, given FCC rules that specifically allow outside antennas (with some limitations - mainly related to height), why even worry about "camo"? Let 'em gripe -there's nothing they can do legally as long you comply with FCC regs. This is after all the 21st century with wireless technology all over the place. Wonder how many of the "gripers" use WLAN or cell phones? How do they think signals reach them? Why through an antenna of course. Technophobes! Sheesh. Personally, I find external antennas cool and am always on the lookout for "aluminum forests". Now if we could just get relief from CC&Rs for ham radio antennas ...







but alas, current circumstances dictate Apartment living







for now!










Cheers


----------



## cgorra

By the way, Funke has replaced the PDP-1922 with a new VHF high-band yagi called the PSIP-922u: it is only about 85 inches long, but claims better than 13db gain above channel 7. I am getting a sample soon, and will advise as to it's quality. It uses a large rear reflector that make it look a lot like a HUGE Winegard HD-9032, but I hear that it KILLS!


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Satcom15* /forum/post/16774903
> 
> 
> Which begs the question, given FCC rules that specifically allow outside antennas (with some limitations - mainly related to height), why even worry about "camo"?



I camo-painted my antenna because I wanted to, not to please anyone else. And there was no H/POA to deal with.


----------



## JimP

Is it generally understood that a good high VHF antenna is the horizontal yagi design?


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16760581
> 
> 
> Since I bought the AntennaCraft Y5713, what 75 Ohm Transformer should I use to connect my RG6 with?



From an earlier post by me:


It was mentioned that baluns with separate wire leads may have their performance degraded by the way the wire leads are dressed. That one is easy to avoid, use one of the models shown below. They have standard 300Ω twin lead wire on the input (or output) side.


Winegard TV-2900 Weatherproof Transformer, info here 


MCM 33-040 Weather ResistantTransformer, info here 


If you want a balun with no insertion loss then build yourself a λ/2 coaxial cable balun. It is channel specific. Lets say you choose mid way in the VHF Hi-Band (≈ 195 MHz) then there will be about 0.5dB insertion loss at the band extremes, CH-7 and CH-13. It would require 24.82 inches of Belden 1694A or Belden 1505A coax.


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/16775546
> 
> 
> I camo-painted my antenna because I wanted to, not to please anyone else. And there was no H/POA to deal with.



You are so lucky arxaw! I live in the land of CC&Rs - Colorado. You can barely breathe without worry of generating a violation.







And finding a neighborhood without them? Good luck. So much for Rocky Mountain High.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP* /forum/post/16775579
> 
> 
> Is it generally understood that a good high VHF antenna is the horizontal yagi design?



That has been the conventional wisdom for a long time. By making it longer (adding more elements and length), it's performance can be increased.


----------



## cpcat

Coax baluns are great in theory but they sure aren't easy to make. Coax shield wasn't intended for soldering.


----------



## JimP




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16776324
> 
> 
> That has been the conventional wisdom for a long time. By making it longer (adding more elements and length), it's performance can be increased.



That's what I was seeing when comparing UHF only antennas versus VHF only.


UHF seem to be vertical designs while VHF appear to be horizontal.


So when an antenna such as the 4228 picks up high VHF (which mine doesn't) is that mostly luck?


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP* /forum/post/16776758
> 
> 
> That's what I was seeing when comparing UHF only antennas versus VHF only.
> 
> 
> UHF seem to be vertical designs while VHF appear to be horizontal.



This is true, but my guess is it's mostly for mechanical reasons rather than electrical. And there are many exceptions on the UHF side -- the Antennacraft 91XG and the Radio Shack U-75, for instance. You can build an antenna just like the 4228 only scaled for VHF frequencies. But it will be very large and very heavy, and the 4228 is already large and heavy as antennas go.


----------



## axolotls

I am a NOOB.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...497b1689d99e5f 


Here's my report ^


Looks like the majority of the stations I want are the ones in the SW quadrant and are UHF.


Which antenna should I get? (I see 4228 might work). Even though they are 30 miles away, there are quite a few hills in the way. If more power = better than fine. Chimney mount is the only logical place and it's probably 30' high. Windy area.


Thanks!


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/16776396
> 
> 
> Coax baluns are great in theory but they sure aren't easy to make. *Coax shield wasn't intended for soldering*.



That is why I specified Belden 1694A (RG-6/U) or 1505A (RG-59). Both have a 95% TC (Tinned Copper) braid with 100% foil for shielding. The TC braid is very easy to solder. I used these two types for all of our SD-SDI (SMPTE 259M), HD-SDI (SMPTE 292M) and SMPTE 310 video feeds/distribution. They are overkill for general RF use and cost a lot more than a good solid copper center conductor cable with aluminum braid. Some info here on 1694/1505.


FWIW, I use CommScope 5729 cable and Aguat SNS1P6 Snap-N-Seal (RG-6/U) connectors for all of my RF work. I use the referenced Belden cables for all video work.


There are several other RG-6/U and RG-59 cables available with tinned and un-tinned copper braid but it has been many years since I used any of these. For folks interested you may try Alpha Cable Co. or Clark Wire & Cable Co.


----------



## TV Trey




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP* /forum/post/16775579
> 
> 
> Is it generally understood that a good high VHF antenna is the horizontal yagi design?



That is one. The Log-Periodic and Conical Array are two others to consider. All should be mounted horizontally, as i know of no TV stations that use vertical only polarization.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/16762456
> 
> 
> In case anyone is interested, the quad on top are Triax Unix 100A's (uhf 14-38 specific) and the bottom dual are Antennacraft Y10 7-13's (vhf 7-13). Combiners are Lindsay uhf quad and vhf dual models. Pre's are Sitco PA24 for uhf and CM7777 for vhf (vhf input only).



cpcat, nice new setup with the quad! I'm still using MAX HD's first two Triax Unix 100 W/B antennas horizontally stacked. I know MAX HD really likes his quad stack. Are you seeing stronger reception with the 4 antennas over 2 antennas? I'm wondering about 4 vs. 2 at my location with the local antenna farm 3-5 miles away. The stack certainly has allowed me to DX more stations. Might 4 help me even more in this high RF location?? Just curious. Thanks.


Steve


----------



## arxaw

axolotls,

The new chinese made ChannelMaster " 4228HD " is crap. Avoid it unless you want to modify it to make it a decent antenna.


By entering your specific address at TVFool, the results will be much more accurate. The results page will _not_ display your address.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland

Below is the λ/2 coax balun I made for the Winegard PR-9032. It was constructed using a small black plastic box and tapped to the boon of the antenna.


----------



## axolotls




arxaw said:


> axolotls,
> 
> The new chinese made ChannelMaster " 4228HD " is crap. Avoid it unless you want to modify it to make it a decent antenna.
> 
> 
> By entering your specific address at TVFool, the results will be much more accurate. The results page will _not_ display your address.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> Thanks. The results came out the same. I am only really looking for a UHF antenna. Glad to know the 4228HD is crap, I almost bit the bullet.


----------



## bhlonewolf




axolotls said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/16777814
> 
> 
> axolotls,
> 
> The new chinese made ChannelMaster " 4228HD " is crap. Avoid it unless you want to modify it to make it a decent antenna.
> 
> 
> By entering your specific address at TVFool, the results will be much more accurate. The results page will _not_ display your address.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> Thanks. The results came out the same. I am only really looking for a UHF antenna. Glad to know the 4228HD is crap, I almost bit the bullet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I own one of the new CM4228. After the fact and in reading many reviews, it seems the older model is a bit better, but I have to say I'm quite happy with its performance. I'm pulling in all the stations I need to (incl VHF HI), some from quite far away (70 miles), and it's in my attic.
> 
> 
> I can't say whether it's better or worse than something else, but saying "it's crap" isn't that useful of a statement.
Click to expand...


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Paint the antenna and mast with Krylon ultra-flat camo paint. Olive gray/green color works well.



Good job, and the stuff lasts well too. Ive used it on a small boat, after picking up a dozen cans of it at Lowes on clearance for 50 cents each, heh.


Without trees in the background, I find flat black works well for me. The paint does lower the velocity factor of the elements, but not enough to make a noticible difference. I dont like to paint uhf elements, but only the reflectors and directors.


I never used a light powder blue. To me, it would look too effeminate if spotted, heh.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bhlonewolf* /forum/post/16779097
> 
> 
> I own one of the new CM4228. After the fact and in reading many reviews, it seems the older model is a bit better, but I have to say I'm quite happy with its performance. I'm pulling in all the stations I need to (incl VHF HI), some from quite far away (70 miles), and it's in my attic.
> 
> 
> I can't say whether it's better or worse than something else, but saying "it's crap" isn't that useful of a statement.



Glad the new 4228 worked for you. It does work in some cases.


I based my "crap" statement not only on the review of it by hdtvprimer (they called it and the new DB8 both "wrecks"), but also based on people in my area who've tried to use one.


One person replaced his previous CM4228 with the new chinese one, after a tree limb destroyed the old antenna during an ice storm last winter. He lost about half the channels he was getting, and returned it for a refund. Another guy I know bought one, but had to make several modifications to it, to increase the gain to a usable level. After his modifications, it worked quite well. But you shouldn't have to re-engineer a brand new antenna to make it work right.


----------



## axolotls

Thanks again arxaw.


Still not being up on this stuff. The HD7697P you recommended...


Are these what they call directional? Do you point the 'spear' part where the signals are? In my case SW.


And, are there any special chimney mounts and masts for a semi-windy area. On some rare occasions short bursts of 55+ (the yard waste containers fly down the block).


Cheers


Ax


----------



## arxaw

Yes. It is fairly directional.










There are chimney mounts available, which should withstand a pretty good wind.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> based my "crap" statement not only on the review of it by hdtvprimer (they called it and the new DB8 both "wrecks"), but also based on people in my area who've tried to use one.



"Designed by a clown" I believe is the phrase he used, heh.


Of course the antenna still works, but so does the YouTube coat hanger antenna. The point is, you should expect a little more from your hard earned money. I do, darn it. And if more dont complain about shoddy crap, the more we will get. Thats unfortunately a fact of life !


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wendell R. Breland* /forum/post/16777703
> 
> 
> That is why I specified Belden 1694A (RG-6/U) or 1505A (RG-59). Both have a 95% TC (Tinned Copper) braid with 100% foil for shielding. The TC braid is very easy to solder. .



Gotcha. Good to know.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *goldrich* /forum/post/16777784
> 
> 
> cpcat, nice new setup with the quad! I'm still using MAX HD's first two Triax Unix 100 W/B antennas horizontally stacked. I know MAX HD really likes his quad stack. Are you seeing stronger reception with the 4 antennas over 2 antennas? I'm wondering about 4 vs. 2 at my location with the local antenna farm 3-5 miles away. The stack certainly has allowed me to DX more stations. Might 4 help me even more in this high RF location?? Just curious. Thanks.
> 
> 
> Steve



Yes, it's certainly a noticeable difference . The beamwidth is very narrow which should actually help with your local strong signals. I doubt the extra gain in itself would be enough to produce problems if you aren't having any already.


MaxHD is stacked at around 40 inches if I'm not mistaken. I'd like to have that kind of room but unfortunately am maxxed at around 27 inches with my current fiberglass length.


----------



## dvansowhat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *axolotls* /forum/post/16779999
> 
> 
> Thanks again arxaw.
> 
> 
> Still not being up on this stuff. The HD7697P you recommended...
> 
> 
> Are these what they call directional? Do you point the 'spear' part where the signals are? In my case SW.
> 
> 
> And, are there any special chimney mounts and masts for a semi-windy area. On some rare occasions short bursts of 55+ (the yard waste containers fly down the block).
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> Ax



I have the 7698 and I pick up stations at 43 mi. I put one up for my father and he is 63 mi. and picks up stations. None of these are amplified and the results have been very good. Mine has taken wind bursts of over 60mph and no problem. I also have a chimney mount. And yes it is directional so should work on your SW quadrant. Be forewarned that setting this antenna up requires two people to put together and you will have to be carefull mounting the two booms together. Also if you get it make sure you check the balun that is has not been damaged in shipment, spade lugs. Setting the phase lines are pretty simple once you figure it out. Take your time.


----------



## axolotls

Thanks for that info. Getting to the chimney is a hairy task (think multiple pitches of roof to transverse). Looking at the weight it seems they are fairly light (10lbs).I'll start comparing pricesinthe 769x series and actually see if what obstructions are in the way (only ones would be multiple hills)


----------



## marchioa

I live fairly close to my local transmitters and I am having trouble reliably getting signal on one channel. My info is here:

Code:


Code:


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d497be9079baae2

I only care about the "green" stations to the south. Most are ~3 miles and the one I have trouble with is KRMA-DT at 6.8 miles. I am using a small indoor antenna similar to the Philips Silver Sensor. I have moved it outdoors and pointed it at the transmitters; still KRMA-DT comes in around 50% signal/50% quality +/-10% on my HDHomerun. The 3 mile stations are at 100%/100%.


So, the question is what is the best next step to get KRMA-DT reliably?


Thanks


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *axolotls* /forum/post/16779999
> 
> 
> And, are there any special chimney mounts and masts for a semi-windy area. On some rare occasions short bursts of 55+ (the yard waste containers fly down the block).



Three different points I'd like to make.


1) Don't exceed 3-5' of pole (above last mount), when using inexpensive antenna poles.


2) Use heavy gauge antenna pole or galvanized pipe up to a maximum of 10'.


3) It never hurst to overkill the number of chimney straps (more than two).


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *marchioa* /forum/post/16781423
> 
> 
> So, the question is what is the best next step to get KRMA-DT reliably?



If you're happy with your reception of the other stations, I would say just be patient for now. Many people in the Denver area are unable to receive KRMA-DT because the station is currently operating at significantly reduced power from a less than ideal antenna location. They are in the process of installing a new antenna at a higher location and expect to be up at full power with their new antenna in August. You should not have any problem receiving them once their new equipment is operational.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16766239
> 
> 
> Hi-VHF Circular Loop had slightly higher Raw & Net Gain than Square Loop,
> 
> despite slightly smaller diameter, using "3/8-in I.D." Copper Tubing (actual OD=0.514-in)
> 
> for Circular Loop & 1/2-in Type M Copper Pipe (OD=0.569-in) for Square Loop:
> http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/sqloop
> 
> From the Square Loop results, you can see what happens with smaller tubing/wire sizes....



holl_ands,


Can you prioritize the reflector modelling on the circular design? Any thoughts on what a director would look like?


Is there a specific size for maximizing RF channel 8 reception?


What do you think the design for RF 32, RF 23, and RF 47 would be using 10 AWG (solid copper)?


I would think these would be very easy to box with shielding.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *marchioa* /forum/post/16781423
> 
> 
> So, the question is what is the best next step to get KRMA-DT reliably?



You have quite a challenge. KTVD on channel 19 is 12 db stronger than KRMA on channel 18. (assuming that KRMA is actually running the power that is indicated on tvfool.)


What happens to the relative signal strength if the antenna height on tvfool is raised?


A preamplified antenna could be a part of the problem.


----------



## arxaw

dvansowhat,

I helped a friend install a 769*4* , the smallest one of the series. He's getting stations from up to ~50 miles away. The coax is split to two TVs and there is no preamp. Good elevation helps, of course, purely anecdotal results and individual results _will_ vary. But I do think Winegard may actually be a bit conservative in their mileage ratings of the HD769 series.


The 769*4* is fairly simple to assemble and can be installed on a J-Mount , but a taller mast may be preferable.


----------



## johnpost

some thoughts on chimney mounts: use with care. i don't have a lot of experience with chimney mounts or chimneys but some thoughts.


with a 'fake' chimney on a modern house, a metal chimney pipe often supported by a wood surround. it is best not to use strap around the chimney but bolt the mounting brackets into the wood.


with masonry chimneys they need to be in real good condition. they are intended to last decades are made strong enough to do so and may do so. depending on the age of chimney, its materials and construction, your local conditions for weather and what has happened to your chimney then it may or may not be in good condition. it is good that masonry be sealed and resealed if needed. chimneys are very exposed and take more of a beating than the rest of your house. water that gets into the masonry can cause deterioration, especially if you get freezing temperatures. mortar damage is not always easily seen from the ground with the naked eye. repair the chimney with repointing/tuckpointing if needed to have it be in very good condition before putting an antenna on it.


also if the chimney is in use it will cause the antenna to deteriorate a lot faster than if mounted elsewhere.


----------



## money__shot

Good day experts









I was wondering if someone could point me in the right direction.

I want to get an antenna but I am faced with MANY options.

I live here

hxxp:// maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=k0g+1n0&sll=44.889673,-75.730627&sspn=0.013454,0.032938&ie=UTF8&ll=44.731126,-75.679321&spn=1.726799,4.216003&z=9 


Here is what tvfool has to say.

hxxp:// www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d497b9c5bb94a63 

I think ABC 7.1 FOX 7.2 is vhf, mabey more.

Would a CM3671 bring in all these channels?

Thanks a bunch


forgot to say i already have a 50 foot tower on my house...


----------



## systems2000

This will help money_shot

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...497b9c5bb94a63 


What stations are you looking to acquire?


----------



## money__shot

thats the same tvfool page i posted










I want ALL of em (insert evil laugh here)


----------



## arxaw

You'll also need a preamp and rotor, to get the stations TVFool shows in pink (post transition selection). You may not get any stations below the pink ones in the TVFool list, at least not reliably.


The 3671 is for channels 2 thru 69. I don't see any lowband VHF channels (2 thru 6) in your list, so the added weight & size of the wide elements on the 3671 for those low VHF channels would be of little use, except for FM radio.


Unless you know of lowband channels that are not listed, or will be added later, you might want to consider some of the new smaller lighter antennas designed for channels 7 thru 69.


----------



## kedirekin

[whisper]_With only two posts, you weren't allowed to insert links. Systems2000 converted your TV fool report to a link for the convenience of other members._[/whisper]


----------



## systems2000

 http://www.soontai.com/TRF.html 


Has anyone used these and where can I find them?


I have an e-mail into the company now.


----------



## marchioa




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/16781523
> 
> 
> If you're happy with your reception of the other stations, I would say just be patient for now. Many people in the Denver area are unable to receive KRMA-DT because the station is currently operating at significantly reduced power from a less than ideal antenna location. They are in the process of installing a new antenna at a higher location and expect to be up at full power with their new antenna in August. You should not have any problem receiving them once their new equipment is operational.



Thanks for that information. Everything else works fine with the antenna outside I get 100% signal/quality on most other stations. I can't complain about that. The further away stations are not worth the trouble for me. I'll just sit and wait for them to improve their transmitter.


----------



## money__shot

thanks for your quick replies

I currently have a coat hanger antenna i made off youtube up there.

here is what im getting off that antenna



4-1 CBOT CBC GET IT

-------------------------------------

7-1 WWNY-dt CBS DONT GET IT

-------------------------------------

7-2 WNYF-dt FOX DONT GET IT

-------------------------------------

9-1 CBOFT CBC french GET IT

-------------------------------------

16-1 WNPI (SD) GET IT same as 18-1

16-2 WNPI (think) GET IT same as 18-2

16-3 WNPI (HD) GET IT same as 18-3

-------------------------------------

18-1 WNPI (SD) GET IT

18-2 WNPI (think) GET IT

18-3 WNPI (HD) GET IT

-------------------------------------

20-1 SUN TV(HD) GET IT

20-2 SUN TV(SD) GET IT

-------------------------------------

27-1 OMNI 1 GET IT

27-2 OMNI 1 GET IT

-------------------------------------

50-1 WWTI-dt ABC GET IT (low signal on bad days)

50-2 WWTI-2 The CW GET IT (low signal on bad days)

-------------------------------------

66-1 OMNI 2 GET IT


The coat hanger thing was temporary just to see if it was worthwhile investing in this from my location.


----------



## Jim Miller

i'll add that chimneys often begin failing due to the chimney cap failing. it is often mortar and poorly sealed or with seals that have deteriorated. once they fail the entire top of the chimney fails rapidly. this is seldom obvious from the ground and often difficult to assess unless you can actually get into a position to see the top of the chimney up close.


personally i'd never add an additional load to any chimney. furthermore the chimney output will rather rapidly corrode the metal antenna.


jtm


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *money__shot* /forum/post/16783349
> 
> 
> I currently have a coat hanger antenna i made off youtube up there.
> 
> 7-1 WWNY-dt CBS DONT GET IT
> 
> 7-2 WNYF-dt FOX DONT GET IT



Channel 7 is VHF (chs 2 thru 13). The youtube antenna is for UHF (chs 14 thru 69) only. It will sometimes work for VHFs, but only if they're fairly strong at your location.


The actual channel numbers being used are shown in the REAL column on TVFool .


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16673684
> 
> 
> Anyone know where I can get bulk quantities of the Channel Master 3072's and 3075's?



These appear to be like the CM3075 for a lot less.
http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Products/J...ather_boot.htm


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Recommend some twinlead 300 ohm wire.


Radio Shack has some. Is there any better quality to be had? Is older vintage stuff better?


Thanks!


----------



## systems2000

I use Channel Master 9354 300 ohm cable.

http://www.moyerelectronics.com/inde...axialWire.html (by the foot)


You can also find it at http://www.hbfelectronics.com/index....item_id=287193 (best price) or http://www.starkelectronic.com/


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16786673
> 
> 
> Recommend some twinlead 300 ohm wire.
> 
> 
> Radio Shack has some. Is there any better quality to be had? Is older vintage stuff better?



I use Channel Master 3055. It is a low loss foam type. Unfortunately, it has been discontinued. CM does not list any 300Ω twin-lead in their current catalog. Some may be available here . The Rat Shack list the 15-1175 as a foam type and probably is similar to the CM wire.


----------



## axolotls




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnpost* /forum/post/16782634
> 
> 
> some thoughts on chimney mounts: use with care. i don't have a lot of experience with chimney mounts or chimneys but some thoughts.
> 
> 
> with a 'fake' chimney on a modern house, a metal chimney pipe often supported by a wood surround. it is best not to use strap around the chimney but bolt the mounting brackets into the wood.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also if the chimney is in use it will cause the antenna to deteriorate a lot faster than if mounted elsewhere.



Goodpoint. It is wood surrounding a metal pipe. Need to check it out. Perhaps strapping and bolting, if possible?


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnpost* /forum/post/16782634
> 
> 
> some thoughts on chimney mounts: use with care. i don't have a lot of experience with chimney mounts or chimneys but some thoughts.
> 
> 
> with a 'fake' chimney on a modern house, a metal chimney pipe often supported by a wood surround. it is best not to use strap around the chimney but bolt the mounting brackets into the wood.
> 
> 
> also if the chimney is in use it will cause the antenna to deteriorate a lot faster than if mounted elsewhere.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *axolotls* /forum/post/16787846
> 
> 
> Goodpoint. It is wood surrounding a metal pipe. Need to check it out. Perhaps strapping and bolting, if possible?



the straps need to compress tight against something. most siding material will need to be deformed to become tight or it will likely compress over time and loosen the mounting.


with a wood surround you could put lag bolts into framing members on the inside. or mount through the sheeting with something like butterfly bolts. use the biggest bolts you can fit through the mounting brackets. good idea to put caulking into the hole after the butterfly gets in and under the bracket. also caulk top and front of bracket after tightened down.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnpost* /forum/post/16788968
> 
> 
> mount through the sheeting with something like butterfly bolts.



I'd be careful about fastening to anything other than studs to trusses. Some builders use cheap pressboard for walls.


I use a wall mount with lag bolts into a 2X6 that I fastened between the studs in the gable ends of the roof truss.


----------



## 300ohm

Yeah, you definately want to go into a solid stud with lag bolts. Locate with a good stud finder if you dont have aluminum siding (or foil house wrap, like me, heh). Even then you have to watch out for knots and holes.


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnpost* /forum/post/16788968
> 
> 
> with a wood surround you could put lag bolts into framing members on the inside. or mount through the sheeting with something like butterfly bolts. use the biggest bolts you can fit through the mounting brackets.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16790159
> 
> 
> I'd be careful about fastening to anything other than studs to trusses. Some builders use cheap pressboard for walls.
> 
> 
> I use a wall mount with lag bolts into a 2X6 that I fastened between the studs in the gable ends of the roof truss.



i agree that a wall mount is better than a chimney mount especially into an already existing fake chimney. also an active chimney will corrode an antenna and require more frequent maintenance and replacement.


for myself i would even do machine bolts or threaded rod through the 2x6 instead of lag bolts.


----------



## holl_ands

Although I couldn't find any loss specs for C-M or R-S cables, I did find the following:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=15969694 


WWWAAAAYYY back when, the "best" low loss 300-ohm cable had a round hollow (air) core,

rather than the somewhat higher loss foam core typically found today. Worst was plastic junk....


----------



## cgulliver




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/16768891
> 
> 
> If you want something that is more aesthetically pleasing for not a lot of money, replace the CM 3016 with the Antennacraft Y5-7-13 Hi-band.($23.00 plus shipping) Put the 4220 at the top of the mast, and the Y5-7-13 3.5' below it.



Ordered the Y5-7-13. Hope it works out. I think the 4220 is grabbing everything except PBS now so it should be a good fit. Only issue is I had to put in an attenuator to bring the levels down from overload...


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16781775
> 
> 
> holl_ands,
> 
> 
> Can you prioritize the reflector modelling on the circular design? Any thoughts on what a director would look like?
> 
> 
> Is there a specific size for maximizing RF channel 8 reception?
> 
> 
> What do you think the design for RF 32, RF 23, and RF 47 would be using 10 AWG (solid copper)?
> 
> 
> I would think these would be very easy to box with shielding.



Still working on the Dual Loop (UHF/Hi-VHF) design....adding a reflector will be next....


There is no need to "tune" the design across the Hi-VHF band....SWR/Gain doesn't

change much....and optimizing SWR usually increases Raw Gain....


Standard Yagi sizes are 5% longer for Reflector (at 0.15 to 0.2 wavelength spacing)

and 5% shorter for Director (at about 0.15 wavelength spacing)...give or take...

Square Loop Yagis....and esp. Quagi's (two loops + rod directors) are fairly common:
http://commfaculty.fullerton.edu/woverbeck/quagi.htm 


I still need to re-optimize the Circular Loop diameter for smaller wire sizes, but if you

look at the Square Loop charts for various element sizes, the size shrunk by a few inches,

the Gain dropped as much as a dB and SWR increased some using smaller wire size.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cgulliver* /forum/post/16792837
> 
> 
> Only issue is I had to put in an attenuator to bring the levels down from overload...



Ouch, those are some potent signals!!


You may find overload less of a issue once you ditch the CM antenna. A lot of your overload is likely from FM. Your tuners should have a lot more breathing room.


----------



## systems2000

Excellent read. Thanks holl_ands.


----------



## axolotls

Was set to pull the triggeron hd769X series, but saw this also:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=SHD7084 


Any one have this or have opinions on it versus the HD769x


Thanks.


The advice on chimney mounts are great. I should be able to pop the spark arrestor off and use lags. Gonna have to see how thick the board is. I assume a thin fascia over OSB.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *axolotls* /forum/post/16793943
> 
> 
> Was set to pull the triggeron hd769X series, but saw this also:
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=SHD7084
> 
> 
> Any one have this or have opinions on it versus the HD769x



If you aren't interested in channels 2, 3, 4, or 5, the 7697 is a better choice. The 7697 is the _"exact"_ equivalent antenna, but only designed for channels 7-69.


----------



## axolotls




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/16794159
> 
> 
> If you aren't interested in channels 2, 3, 4, or 5, the 7697 is a better choice. The 7697 is the _"exact"_ equivalent antenna, but only designed for channels 7-69.



thanks! i only need 7 -69. i'll grab one of the 769x's!


----------



## kinemax




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/16794159
> 
> 
> If you aren't interested in channels 2, 3, 4, or 5, ...



or FM.


----------



## arxaw

The 769x series antennas should be less clumsy to install than a 7084. If you live where there are ice storms, the weight load if covered with ice is much less, too, since the long elements needed for low VHF channels have been omitted.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kinemax* /forum/post/16794784
> 
> 
> or FM.



Very good point, but anyone serious about low noise FM _stereo_ is better served with a small _unamplified_ dedicated FM antenna.


----------



## arxaw

For VHF channels, where should an FM trap be installed? On the outdoor antenna or behind the TV?


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/16795473
> 
> 
> For VHF channels, where should an FM trap be installed? On the outdoor antenna or behind the TV?



If no amp is used it can go anywhere.(Preferably inside, away from the elements) If ingress is a concern I prefer the trap right at the distibution point, or as close to the tuner as possible.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland

Found an old Channel Master catalog. Here is the information on their 300Ω Transmission Line.


Channel Master Model 3055, 300 Ohm Twin-lead (3055 and 9354 is the same, 3055 is various hank lengths and 9354 is 500 ft. spool). The wire is 20 gauge, 7 strand pure copper.

*dB Loss per 100 Feet*


MHz--5785177213500650800900Dry--0.91.21.52.03.23.84.55.4Wet--1.31.72.33.27.29.511.113.5

FWIW, I only use a short piece of this wire. It goes from the 300Ω antenna connection to a λ/2 coax balun (about 10").


----------



## systems2000

I use the variable trap (on the pre-amp) at the antenna and a switched trap at the DA.


----------



## arxaw

D R, thanks.

It's for a friend's TV with no preamp - just an outdoor antenna.


systems2000, "DA" ?


----------



## systems2000

Distribution Amplifier (TrunkLine 20-TDA25).


----------



## holl_ands

So C-M 9354/3055 appears to be the lowest loss...for twinlead....

But that doesn't include losses due to proximity to other objects....


So RG6 is still looking like the best overall choice for downlead....esp. when it's damp outside...

And of course if you're using a Preamp, these small difference are even smaller....


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> It never hurst to overkill the number of chimney straps (more than two).



I was in Ace Hardware today (looking for the very rare and elusive Makita jig saw blades, heh) and noticed that a pair of chimney mounts with straps was about $15 in my local store. Thats less than anywhere else, if you include shipping. They also had a three way A-B-C coax switch for $12.


----------



## rviele




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16799668
> 
> 
> I was in Ace Hardware today (looking for the very rare and elusive Makita jig saw blades, heh) and noticed that a pair of chimney mounts with straps was about $15 in my local store. Thats less than anywhere else, if you include shipping. They also had a three way A-B-C coax switch for $12.



if i remember correctly i think home depot has makita.


----------



## kinemax




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/16795150
> 
> 
> Very good point, but anyone serious about low noise FM _stereo_ is better served with a small _unamplified_ dedicated FM antenna.



Do you have some recommendations for such FM antenna (i.e. yielding low noise FM stereo)?


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kinemax* /forum/post/16801411
> 
> 
> Do you have some recommendations for such FM antenna (i.e. yielding low noise FM stereo)?



Directional - http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=FM6 


Omni-directional - http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=FMSS


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kinemax* /forum/post/16801411
> 
> 
> Do you have some recommendations for such FM antenna (i.e. yielding low noise FM stereo)?



TV stations tend to be clumped together on one (or several) mountain tops.

However, FM towers seem to be randomly scattered...so you are likely to have

one or more within a dozen miles of you....which can cause intermods within

the FM band if passed through a Preamp. Intermod noise can prevent reception

of some weak stations. Hence preference for a direct FM antenna connection.


You can enter your location to determine FM station distance/direction/signal levels

as well as download a *.kmz file (unzip and double click) which installs FM station

icon locations for display in GoogleEarth at www.fmfool.com 


=======================================

Fol. website summarizes most hi-gain (and other) FM antennas...click on

"Antenna Performance Curves": http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/ 

It also includes some DIY, esp indoor, antenna designs....


Omnidirectional antennas, such as the "Turnstile" are frequently used for

FM since the towers are usually not from a single direction. For distant reception,

you'll need a high gain, directional antenna...and perhaps a rotator...


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16802145
> 
> 
> Intermod noise can prevent reception
> 
> of some weak stations. Hence preference for a direct FM antenna connection.



More importantly, amplification can add a lot of unecessary noise(hiss) when listening to FM "_stereo_". Line loss is extremely low on FM, so amplification generally does more harm than good with a cable run of 200' or less.


----------



## JimP

Regarding television reception.


I now have a combination UHF/VHF antenna pointing due south and a UHF only antenna pointing to the west.


I found that my channel master 7775 preamp is UHF only. Any suggestions as to preamps and connections that would be effective and minimize any signal losses.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP* /forum/post/16803962
> 
> 
> I found that my channel master 7775 preamp is UHF only. Any suggestions as to preamps and connections that would be effective and minimize any signal losses.



Are you planning on receiving UHF off both antennas; or will one antenna be exclusively for VHF, & one just for UHF?


----------



## JimP

UHF off of both and VHF off of one of those.


----------



## Satcom15

holl_ands,

Just thought you might like to see what I think is a unique Cable TV OTA receive site in northern California. Its located northeast of Chico along SR 32. See the picture below. I noticed this site years ago (early 80s) one time when driving up the highway. Some of the reflector screen supports are visible from the highway and being a radio geek I had to check it out. I can't recall how tall they are, but it seems there is a section of a parabolic reflector aimed at a building where there was a high gain VHF/UHF antenna (the focal point). I was surprised to see the structures still standing in the Googel Earth image, particularly since there are a lot of satellite antennas. When I drove through there back in the 80s, I don't recall seeing the antennas then. I'm thinking that that the system was aimed at the SF Bay area and had much more gain than ganging multiple antennas. Also, the site elevation is about 1350 ft. So all in all there is a good view of transmitters located in the SF Bay Area about 140 miles away. It also probably can see Sacramento stations too about 80 miles south. Wonder if it is still in use. Interesting, eh?










Cheers.

Satcom


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> if i remember correctly i think home depot has makita.



Yeah both Lowes and Home Depot (I think I got the jig saw there) carry Makita. But darn it, they dont stock the unique blades, heh.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thought this crowd might be interested...



> Quote:
> Antenna Comparison
> 
> 
> Winegard 9032
> 
> xg91
> 
> HD7698P
> 
> Antenna Craft YA10-7-13
> 
> http://www.hdtvtruckee.com/AntennaComparison.htm


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Stampeder @ digitalhome.ca said:



> Quote:
> I saw a great post about antennas in attics on another forum that linked to a post on another forum from Bob Chase, a broadcast technician who regularly comments on OTA antennas and stuff over on AVSForum:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Quote:Attics take a huge toll on the signal you get. The few that I have measured so far have been in the 20 dB range of attenuation. Those attics are made of standard asphalt shingles, over roofing felt, over plywood type construction. I have not been in an attic like yours.
> 
> 
> Attics also cause reflections that the HDTV tuner has to equalize out and there is only so much equalization that is available. So that means there is less equalization available for the 'real world' multipath that is arriving over your house.
> 
> *Some folks have good luck with the Channel Master CM7777 preamp. Inside the attic it is pretty hard to overload the front end of that particular amp. (Outside it can happen quite easily.)* Given the right conditions, preamp will not overload but the output of the amp can overload the HDTV tuner . That is just one of the good reasons for using an attenuator at the receiver.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=29559
Click to expand...


----------



## systems2000

How can you compare a XG91 to an Antenna Craft YA10-7-13?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Satcom15* /forum/post/16805075
> 
> 
> Just thought you might like to see what I think is a unique Cable TV OTA receive site in northern California.



The cable system in Kingston, NY also had such an antenna in Port Ewen, NY. It was aimed at the Empire State Building.


The towers were 40' tall. The reflector was made with stainless steel wires 2" apart running horizontally. It worked on VHF, but not for UHF. The feed was a conventional TV antenna 20' off the ground. Channel 13 in Albany made reception of New York's WNET 13 troublesome, especially after Albany installed a CP antenna.


The site engineer referred to the antenna as a DEW line antenna. I've never seen such an antenna on any of the DEW line pictures that I've found.


Here's the tvfool report for the California location.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...b09ac296716a05


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16806914
> 
> 
> How can you compare a XG91 to an Antenna Craft YA10-7-13?




You should probably READ THE ARTICLE before commenting with no knowledge....


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16807021
> 
> 
> The cable system in Kingston, NY also had such an antenna in Port Ewen, NY. It was aimed at the Empire State Building.
> 
> 
> The towers were 40' tall. The reflector was made with stainless steel wires 2" apart running horizontally. It worked on VHF, but not for UHF. The feed was a conventional TV antenna 20' off the ground. Channel 13 in Albany made reception of New York's WNET 13 troublesome, especially after Albany installed a CP antenna.
> 
> 
> The site engineer referred to the antenna as a DEW line antenna. I've never seen such an antenna on any of the DEW line pictures that I've found.
> 
> 
> Here's the tvfool report for the California location.
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...b09ac296716a05



Tower Guy,

Thanks for the info. Your note confirmed my thought that similar installations must have existed elsewhere around the nation. Your description agrees with what I recall seeing. Wonder what kind of gain these antenna systems had. That reflector had to scoop up a lot of RF.


As for the Dew Line antenna comment, perhaps that's a because it resembled the White Alice troposcatter communication systems. At some locations they had very large "Bill Board" reflectors that looked similar to the antenna here.


Cheers.

Satcom


----------



## kinemax




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/16803236
> 
> 
> More importantly, amplification can add a lot of unecessary noise(hiss) when listening to FM "_stereo_". Line loss is extremely low on FM, so amplification generally does more harm than good with a cable run of 200' or less.



So, does this mean that, if I were to use the VHF/UHF antenna for FM, I would be better of splitting off the FM signal near the antenna prior to amplification?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Lonely antenna spotted....


Can you name it?


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kinemax* /forum/post/16809261
> 
> 
> So, does this mean that, if I were to use the VHF/UHF antenna for FM, I would be better of splitting off the FM signal near the antenna prior to amplification?



You will be OK as long as you don't use too much amplification. I was referring to a dedicated FM only antenna, where there is really no need to amplify.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16809554
> 
> 
> Lonely antenna spotted....
> 
> 
> Can you name it?



Looks like a Channel Master 3016. http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=ANC3016


----------



## MTVhike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16748875
> 
> 
> Yes, but I wouldnt fret over it too much MTVhike, you have the CM7777 in your possession, work on the rest of the system. In the future you can purchase a 269 if you are feeling deprived of something.
> 
> 
> 
> What you cant do is know exactly what the real signal level is going into the preamp without a signal analyzer. You are guessing on transmission (via TVfool, plus attic building material losses, and antenna anomalies and averaged or smoothed gain figures, VSWR, off axis antenna gain attenuation etc).



I am continuing to try to figure out how gains affect digital signals, and did some tests yesterday (7/12). I borrowed an old Jerrold 727 "Field Strength Meter", to make some measurements (unfortunately, this meter is VHF only). In CT, WTNH is now running on RF channel 10. It is about 35 miles away, with a TVfool signal strength of -52.5 dBm. Using a simple rabbit ears oriented correctly in my attic window and no amplification, I get no reading on the 727, nor on my TV. I purchased a RadioShack model 259 preamp and get 1 bar on my TV. The 727 reads 24 dBm with the RS gain at minimum, and 34 with it at max. I then added my older RS splitter, and got 40 dBm with its gain at a minimum and 55 with it at max. These readings suggest that the amps are working correctly. However, the TV is still giving only 1 bar, and it is barely watchable. Since I am increasing the gain from 0 to 55 dB in roughly 10 dB steps, I can't see how overload could be the problem. I do have a strong FM station at 91 MHz (Signal strength 79 dB with both traps out, and 46 with both traps in). Could that be the problem? Thanks


Sometimes, I get a good signal from WTNH with my channel 13 dipole on the SW side of my house using my CM7777 (no splitter). Is this because the 7777 is a much better preamp than the RS one?


Finally, since I have both UHF and VHF antennas on the NE side, I tried a RS UHF/VHF combiner (model 2586). It did not seem to attenuate the VHF signal at all (the signal strength meter can see changes less than 1 dB). Do these combiners with separate UHF and VHF inputs normally have such a low loss?


Mike


----------



## systems2000

What CECB are you using?


Are your FM traps tunable? If so, they may need to be adjusted (mine did).


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16807136
> 
> 
> You should probably READ THE ARTICLE before commenting with no knowledge....



I did read the article. My comment was directed towards this:


> Quote:
> Antenna Comparison
> 
> 
> Winegard 9032
> 
> xg91
> 
> HD7698P
> 
> Antenna Craft YA10-7-13


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Looks like a Channel Master 3016.



Yep, the directors give it away. Its mounted upside down for some reason, heh. No real harm on dry days, but rain would puddle and remain longer on the element standoffs. Not quite the safest place to mount an antenna either.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16798293
> 
> 
> So C-M 9354/3055 appears to be the lowest loss...for twinlead....



I would never use 300Ω twin-lead if there was a way to avoid it.


I can think of one use, very long runs of 300Ω ladder line. It looks similar to this ladder line but uses small plastic rods to keep the wires separated. This type of twin lead had very low loss (wet loss ?), however, I have not seen this wire in a while and do not know if it is available. It was used in mountainous regions where the antenna would be on high point and the residence would be several hundred feet down the side of the mountain.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Here is some info on some low noise amplifiers for VHF and UHF bands....


LNA antenna preamp from Kitztech

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=820382


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I found this on Ken Nists (HDTVprimer) site....



> Quote:
> (Tom, at www.hdtvtruckee.com , has tested splitters, and the Perfect Vision PV22-233 was the best he found, averaging a roughly 0.5 dB loss (0.5 dB beyond what is expected for an ideal device). I have not tested it. I suspect it is also sold under other names.)
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html





> Quote:
> For these tests I chose a Radio Shack Model 15-1234 "Hybrid Splitter Combiner", which is actually among the better performing splitters I've measured. [Its response is almost identical to a Pico Macom MS-2D, which causes me to wonder if Pico Macom is actually the manufacturer].
> 
> http://www.hdtvtruckee.com/CombinerMeasurement.htm


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16809554
> 
> 
> Lonely antenna spotted....
> 
> 
> Can you name it?



sometimes people want to mount their antennas to an electrical service entrance (where the electrical wires come to a building) because it seems a convenient antenna mast support. it is a very bad idea for two reasons.


1) it is a very noisy electrical environment so the antenna won't work well.


2) you might die or your house catch on fire. whenever you need to do antenna work you come dangerously close to live electric wires, even skilled professionals only do so with lots of precautions. the antenna might fall and bring electricity into your house via the antenna which is a shock and fire hazard.


The only thing safe on a service entrance is lights and then only if well below the drip loop going into the weather head (the lowest point of the wires near the pole). the ladder should not have to go high enough where it might touch the wires and with you on the ladder you should not be able to touch the wires with you arms extended.


This system seems to be abandoned now and the antenna may have been placed before the wires were live. Neither matter; an antenna within falling distance of wires or an antenna or a light within contact distance of wires is a serious hazard.


Don't do like or similar to this photo.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I might give it a new home. Its just out there on a the electric pole of presumably a trailer that burned down or was towed away or something. Ill go have another look at the wiring. I dont think its hooked up to the power grid anymore, except maybe the night light.



Great advice johnpost. I dont think the brightest bunch in the berry patch lived there.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16809554
> 
> 
> Lonely antenna spotted.... Can you name it?



not so lonely.... some birdie seems to have befriended it.


----------



## Rick313

Does anyone here have experience with DigiTenna brand antennas? As I understand it, the company has only been around for about a year. I had not heard of them until EV mentioned them last week on his thread EV's Best Top Rated DTV Indoor Antenna Review Test Round-Up Guide . Their specs look good, but I haven't been able to find any objective reviews. Does anyone here have experience with them?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wendell R. Breland* /forum/post/16812086
> 
> 
> I would never use 300Ω twin-lead if there was a way to avoid it.
> 
> 
> I can think of one use, very long runs of 300Ω ladder line. It looks similar to this ladder line but uses small plastic rods to keep the wires separated. This type of twin lead had very low loss (wet loss ?), however, I have not seen this wire in a while and do not know if it is available. It was used in mountainous regions where the antenna would be on high point and the residence would be several hundred feet down the side of the mountain.



Link to Wet/Dry Loss Calculator for many cables, incl Wireman Ladder Line is here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=15969694 

Also includes link to Wireman, who sells Model#562 (300-ohm open ladder line) for 30 cents/ft.


Although #562 isn't included in the on-line loss calculator, it should be close to #551,

which has similar construction (2.15 dB/100ft DRY and 51.7 dB/100ft WET at 700 MHz).

YIKES!!!! Best to let the Ham radio guys us it on their HF rigs below 30 MHz....

[That's worst case, encased in snow or ice....]


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> not so lonely.... some birdie seems to have befriended it.



(Looking all over for a bird in that picture, heh) Thats not a nest on the line, its spanish moss.


----------



## MTVhike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16811603
> 
> 
> What CECB are you using?
> 
> 
> Are your FM traps tunable? If so, they may need to be adjusted (mine did).



I am using a Samsung TV with ATSC tuner. The FM traps are not tunable.


----------



## MTVhike




Rick0725 said:


> the rs 15-2586 is a standard full band tv splitter/combiner. you would use a uvsj vhf/uhf band combiner splitter to combine a uhf and vhf antenna. Preamps like the cm7777 have this circuit built in.
> 
> 
> I have a CM7777 in use on my other antenna system; I was just trying a cheap-and-dirty system locally available at RS. I was really trying to find out why adding roughly 50 dB of gain, as measured with my signal strength meter, didn't help my Samsung ATSC tuner pick up the station any better. Based on other comments here, I am concluding that it is the strong FM station.
> 
> 
> Mike


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/16811589
> 
> 
> the rs 15-2586 is a standard full band tv splitter/combiner. you would use a uvsj vhf/uhf band combiner splitter to combine a uhf and vhf antenna. Preamps like the cm7777 have this circuit built in.
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=UVSJ



The 15-2586 is a VHF/UHF diplexer, same as the UVSJ from Solid Signal. It is NOT a full-band splitter as the website description incorrectly implies.


----------



## Digital Rules




MTVhike said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/16811589
> 
> 
> I was really trying to find out why adding roughly 50 dB of gain, as measured with my signal strength meter, didn't help my Samsung ATSC tuner pick up the station any better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW, my Samsung LCD is more sensitive to overload than any CECB or ATSC TV I have used.
Click to expand...


----------



## kedirekin




> Quote:
> I was just trying a cheap-and-dirty system locally available at RS. I was really trying to find out why adding roughly 50 dB of gain, as measured with my signal strength meter, didn't help my Samsung ATSC tuner pick up the station any better. Based on other comments here, I am concluding that it is the strong FM station.



More likely that increasing the gain just isn't improving your signal-to-noise ratio (SNR). For the most part, the SNR of your system is set by your antenna gain and the noise figure of your pre-amp. Pre-amp gain has little effect because it amplifies noise right along with the signal, keeping the SNR about the same.


Alternatively it could be something like multi-path. Again, a stronger (higher gain) amp wouldn't help because it's amplifying the multi-path signal as much as the main-path signal.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> (Strong FM station)Could that be the problem? Thanks



Yes it could be increasing the noise in your pre amp as it overloads across all frequencies.



> Quote:
> Sometimes, I get a good signal from WTNH with my channel 13 dipole on the SW side of my house using my CM7777 (no splitter). Is this because the 7777 is a much better preamp than the RS one?



Sounds to me like you only get it sometimes, its because of the antenna gain and signal strength or other issues.....and not the amps (which cant create something out of nothing). However if you never get a signal with the RS and sometimes do with the 7777 all other things being equal, that is probably the difference in the noise of the amps. And that means you need a better antenna or location for the antenna.



> Quote:
> Finally, since I have both UHF and VHF antennas on the NE side, I tried a RS UHF/VHF combiner (model 2586). It did not seem to attenuate the VHF signal at all (the signal strength meter can see changes less than 1 dB). Do these combiners with separate UHF and VHF inputs normally have such a low loss?



Yes. They typically have an insertion loss of .7db plus or minus less than half a db.




FWIU.


----------



## systems2000

Over the weekend, I finally mounted the Zig-Zag antenna. I didn't get a chance to test it with a pre-amp. It did work without isolating it from the tower. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to acquire any stations from Baltimore, D.C., WLYH, or WPMT (I didn't try for WTAJ).


I finally aligned it for W08EE-D (215°M) to check for VHF capabilities. It acquired WVPY, WWPB, WHAG, WWPX, & WJAL. I'm getting 100% quality and no signs of degradation, drop-outs, interference, or fading.


WVPY (209°M), WWPX (215°M), WWPB (226°M), WHAG (227°M), & WJAL (279°M).


----------



## dbdoc

Signal strength for transmitted signals is expressed in dbm, like on tvfool, but on the receive end signal strength is usually expressed in dbmv, where 0 dbmv equals 1mV. This is what I am familiar with and how the meters I use work. Tv tuners can handle up to about +25dbmv/18mV (per carrier). Analogue signals get snowy below around -6dbmv. Cable carriers shoot for +10dbmv at the house, which can be safely connected to a tuner or split about 3 ways without further amplification. 0dbmv was a level MATV installers used to shoot for at the tv set. My signal strength meter measures down to around -30dbmv. If you are that low coming staight off the antenna, you are probably going to have problems with any preamp. Preamps need something to work with. Antenna preamps are a science of their own, but I don't think you are going to overload most preamps unless multiple carriers are greater than +10dbmv. Nearby FM transmitters can cause problems for VHF channels on each side of them.

I abandoned OTA TV for cable over 25 years ago, but have come back since digital broadcast started. I finally bit the bullet and got a Sadelco Display Max signal strength meter to study what is up with digital reception. It has a spectrum analyzer feature. Digital signals seem to be more about clean (low multipath) than signal strength. If I see a notch in the flat-topped waveform approaching 10db deep, or if the front or back edge is rolled off there is going to be problems with the signal if it deteriorates any further, if not already. I have locked on reliably to signals as low as -16 to -20 dbmv. Also, there is a real time single-frequency level mode for tweaking antennas. If the level is bouncing around wildly, like when the wind is blowing, there will usually be problems, especially if the signal is weak. Even with all of this, conditions can change drastically from day to day. But I am in the city, with a lot of huge trees.

I did notice on my Sam digatal tuner, that 3-4 bars means around -20dbmv signal; 8 bars = -7; and 9 bars = 0dbmv or greater, which is nothing more than an indication of what is going on.

I am definitely no expert and there is no substitute for experience, which is what is good about forums like this.


----------



## Tschmidt

I'm in southern NH 42 miles away from Boston stations. Currently have separate VHF (YA-1713) and UHF (CM 4228 old style) roof mounted antennas. I offset them by 105 degrees to minimize need to use rotator. VHF picks up NH channel 9 and 11 and UHF Boston stations. WHDH (Boston) was schedule to move back to VHF but due to technical problems appear they will be staying on UHF. Use CM 7777 mast mounted preamp and 8-way splitter.


This is my only my second post so not able to embed URLs.

Have posted setup details on my site: tschmidt-dot-com/writings


Here is TVfool info, FCC site data is pretty similar.

/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d74fa1d6ecdfd6f


We are having problems receiving WSBK and WGBX. WGBX is a high priority for us. I emailed station and they replied they are transmitting at full power and final antenna. I realize modeling is only a rough approximation but we are able to receive stations that model weaker reliably (WHDH (UHF) and WFXT). WLVI and WBPX also model weaker and we receive them occasionally. Almost never able to receive WGBX. Hoped termination of Nightlight broadcast would help but had no effect.


All Boston stations are in the same heading so terrain differences are not an issue. WLVI in on RF channel 41, WHDH 42 and WGBX 43 so system frequency response does not seem to be a factor.


Terrain here in NH is a problem and even though antenna is 30 ft above grade it is below tree level and in shadow of distance hill.


Any comments or ideas are appreciated. Is the 91-XG a better choice? I hate to randomly try different combinations.


fixed typo meant 91XG not 43


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tschmidt* /forum/post/16822761
> 
> 
> Any comments or ideas are appreciated. Is the 43-XG a better choice?



No, the 43 XG has similar or even less gain as the 4228. The 91XG may help, but I'd say that you need more than 1-2 db.


So, what's wrong? Have you tried your 4228 without tilt? Does the other end of the house miss the big tree better?


----------



## EscapeVelocity

That's a fantastic post! Thank dbdoc.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick0725* /forum/post/16817342
> 
> 
> you are correct. went to the store down the street today and the legs are labeled uhf/vhf on part# 15-2586. That is alot of money for one of those.



It takes a lot of money to stock and man a B&M store. It's called RETAIL.


If you want cheap prices, buy from someone online with no overhead, no manpower, and no stockholders to answer to.


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16822849
> 
> 
> I'd say that you need more than 1-2 db.
> 
> 
> So, what's wrong? Have you tried your 4228 without tilt? Does the other end of the house miss the big tree better?



Thanks for the quick response. Receive signal level of WGBX is so low it does not even sync most of the time. Agree I need more then a couple of dB. BTW meant 91XG, not 43XG. This is snow and ice country. The 4228 survived last December's ice storm without a hitch. By comparison 91XG looks pretty fragile with lot more surface area.


Have not tried comparing tilt and vertical mount of the 4228. It is a pain to take the mast done and play. Other end of house is blocked even worse. It is not just a single tree but a tree line. Plus aesthetically mounting antenna on Western side, away from driveway is better.


----------



## Tschmidt

Added links now that I have hit the magic number:


TVfool data:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...74fa1d6ecdfd6f 


Outdoor antenna setup:
http://www.tschmidt.com/writings/Des...%20antenna.htm 


/tom


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tschmidt* /forum/post/16823033
> 
> 
> Plus aesthetically mounting antenna on Western side, away from driveway is better.



Do you want reception or aesthetics? Unfortunately, they don't always work out together.


----------



## holl_ands

CONVERTING BETWEEN dBmV and dBm:
http://www.soontai.com.tw/cal_exunit.html 
http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/an_pk/808/ 


so for 75-ohm load:

dBm = dBmV - 48.8 dB

dBmV = dBm + 48.8 dB


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dbdoc* /forum/post/16822136
> 
> 
> Cable carriers shoot for +10dbmv at the house, which can be safely connected to a tuner or split about 3 ways without further amplification. 0dbmv was a level MATV installers used to shoot for at the tv set.



When I was designing cable plants, the standard was 0dBmV ±10dB at the outlet. I think this may also be an FCC requirement.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland

By that he means Zero (0) as in:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16824281
> 
> 
> so for 75-ohm load:
> 
> 0 dBm = dBmV - 48.8 dB
> 
> 0 dBmV = dBm + 48.8 dB



For all readers. IMO, the easy way to do things like this is to enter the equations into your spreadsheet. I have some of these in Quattro Pro (should work in Excel or OpenDoc, etc.)


----------



## holl_ands

It's an algebraic equation. If you plug +10 dBmV into "dBmV" , you find:


dBm = dBmV - 48.8 dB

dBm = +10 dBmV - 48.8 dB

dBm = -38.8 dBm


Hence +10 dBmV = -38.8 dBm


----------



## holl_ands

As you might expect, OTA signal levels are much lower than cable signal levels.

But we should not compare them directly. Here are specs:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8138883 


Standard 256QAM levels are -12 to +15 dBmV (-60.8 to -33.8 dBm).

Typical cable boxes will lose the signal if it's lower than this and

will suffer from overload at higher levels--esp. since there are over

a hundred strong, equal strength carriers on cable.

Obviously, you would want the signal at the cable entry point to be

towards higher end of this range, due to 4 dB loss in each RF Splitter.


Unlike OTA which may have only a handful of strong, unequal strength carriers.


----------



## serndipity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tschmidt* /forum/post/16822761
> 
> 
> We are having problems receiving WSBK and WGBX. WGBX is a high priority for us.



The Boston MA (includes Southern NH) OTA thread is here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=453241 


WBZ, WSBK, WGBH and WGBX antennas are all at the same height and tower in Needham (generally well received in even in SE NH).


BTW. I lived in Amherst NH before moving to Marblehead MA. Using a DIY indoor antenna, I have no problems receiving NH channels 9, 11 and 50 here (although at sea level, having the ocean in my frontyard makes a big difference).


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *serndipity* /forum/post/16825237
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=453241



I've posted there also. But this is more about antenna performance in general rather then then specific region.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *serndipity* /forum/post/16825237
> 
> 
> WBZ, WSBK, WGBH and WGBX antennas are all at the same height and tower in Needham



They are not quite the same height but pretty close. That is why significant difference in receive level is so confusing given the relatively small difference in transmit power between WGBH and WGBX.

According to Necrat: WBZ, WCVB, WGBH, WGBX, WSBK, WYDN are all on the Needham tower, other stations have their own towers.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *serndipity* /forum/post/16825237
> 
> 
> Using a DIY indoor antenna, I have no problems receiving NH channels 9, 11 and 50 here



9 and 11 come in fine. 50 is a no show even though analog was fine. Looking at TVfool info there is terrain obstruction but receive level still models pretty high. It is not a big deal since it requires rotating the antenna.


----------



## dbdoc

Actually, when I said cable providers shoot for +10, it is what I have observed for analogue cable. On TWC feeds in KCMO, it is easy to see where analogue ends and the digitital channels begin on a full scan meter display because they are running the digital carriers around 7db less than the analoge ones.

I can't believe all the years I have read books and experimented to get knowledge in this area. Now you can hop on the internet and find it all. It has been interesting to go back and read some of these threads from the beginning to fill in the gaps.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> WGBX is a high priority for us.





> Quote:
> hat is why significant difference in receive level is so confusing given the relatively small difference in transmit power between WGBH and WGBX.



6db of NM difference can be quite significant on a two edge station. Have you tried moving the antenna up and down in say 6 inch increments ? You may find a hot spot for it that way.


----------



## holl_ands

You have to be careful comparing apples and oranges.

Analog is always specified and measured using a PEAK reading meter.

DTV is always specified and should be measured using an AVERAGE reading meter.

Peak-to-Average Ratio for DTV is about 7 dB, whereas it's a variable for NTSC,

ranging from 2.2 dB (all black) to 7.6 dB (all white):
http://www.broadcastpapers.com/white...C30554EDFCE82C 


Here's an AppNote for setting NTSC and DTV levels on CATV fibre illustrating

the PEAK vs AVERAGE measurement differences:
http://www.sunrisetelecom.com/suppor...00r_apnote.pdf 


Meters and Spectrum Analyzers will give different results, depending on the

bandwidth of the measurement filter, which is usually much less than 6 MHz:
http://www.pi-usa.com/pdf/dtva.pdf


----------



## gerty112




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16763141
> 
> 
> Clearstream C4 works great for all UHF stations in Los Angeles. I sent back the Clearstream C5 today because it did not work for the Hi VHF like it stated.



Where did you get a Clearstream C5 in LA to be returning it in early July?


The manufacturer is taking pre-orders now, and says it won't be released until late July. The on-line web-sites selling it also say "not in stock" are taking back/pre-orders only.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gerty112* /forum/post/16830050
> 
> 
> Where did you get a Clearstream C5 in LA to be returning it in early July?
> 
> 
> The manufacturer is taking pre-orders now, and says it won't be released until late July. The on-line web-sites selling it also say "not in stock" are taking back/pre-orders only.




I ordred it directly from the manufacturer (even though it said pre-order). They actually shipped it out a few days later. It did work pretty good but not the same stable reception that I get with the C4 for UHF. I am 57 miles away also.


I sent it back a few days later and picked up the AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 and get 0 signal with that one (looks like the C5 might be better then the Y5-7-13).


I just hate High VHF. That is all I have to say. UHF at 57 miles away with a small C4 antenna and I get perfect UHF reception. High VHF with a 5' antenna and still no signal.


----------



## JimP

I'm looking at the bottom of a Winegard AP-4800 UHF antenna preamplifier.


It says on the bottom (with VHF BY-PASS). Does that mean that VHF is allowed to go through the preamp without amplification or does it mean that VHF is filtered out and doesn't go through the device.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP* /forum/post/16830802
> 
> 
> I'm looking at the bottom of a Winegard AP-4800 UHF antenna preamplifier.
> 
> 
> It says on the bottom (with VHF BY-PASS). Does that mean that VHF is allowed to go through the preamp without amplification or does it mean that VHF is filtered out and doesn't go through the device.



It means VHF signals "bypass" the Preamp, arriving at the output without any gain or loss.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16829988
> 
> 
> You have to be careful comparing apples and oranges.
> 
> Analog is always specified and measured using a PEAK reading meter.
> 
> DTV is always specified and should be measured using an AVERAGE reading meter.
> 
> Peak-to-Average Ratio for DTV is about 7 dB, whereas it's a variable for NTSC,
> 
> ranging from 2.2 dB (all black) to 7.6 dB (all white):
> http://www.broadcastpapers.com/white...C30554EDFCE82C
> 
> 
> Here's an AppNote for setting NTSC and DTV levels on CATV fibre illustrating
> 
> the PEAK vs AVERAGE measurement differences:
> http://www.sunrisetelecom.com/suppor...00r_apnote.pdf
> 
> 
> Meters and Spectrum Analyzers will give different results, depending on the
> 
> bandwidth of the measurement filter, which is usually much less than 6 MHz:
> http://www.pi-usa.com/pdf/dtva.pdf



That last app-note was from 1997 and is related to using NTSC meters for measuring ATSC signals. We've certainly come a long way since then.....


The professional meters (Sadelco, Sencore, Leader, etc) have different configuration settings for analog vs digital that take the peak vs. average into account when displaying results. Still, the needed (final) digital signal level is comparatively lower than for analog as ATSC will easily decode down to around -35 to -38 dBmV as long as there is adequate C/N ratio (> 15.2 - 15.3 dB) and good enough quality (little peak/valley distortion that raises the BER). NTSC would have started getting grainy (loss of resolution) between 0 and -10 dBmV)


Also, keep in mind that TVfool and the FCC mapping tool provide estimates of signal POWER, not voltage. To convert from the projected power value to voltage (as measured with a dB voltmeter), add 48.8 to the dBm value to convert to dBmV (into a 75 ohm load).


As an example, if the forecast signal strength were -48.8 dBm, a unity gain (0 dB) antenna were used, and the circuit were perfect (no losses or mismatches), the dB voltmeter should read 0 dBmV, a -58.8 dBm forecast should read -10 dBmV, a -38.8 dBm forecast should read +10 dBmv, etc


Since no one here is likely to be working on optical front ends and signal measurements there-in, this app-note is afar more relevant to this audience: http://www.sencore.com/uploads/files...RF_Signals.pdf 


Here's another one that's pretty conservative with recommended signal levels: http://www.sencore.com/uploads/files...veGoodHDTV.pdf


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gerty112* /forum/post/16830050
> 
> 
> Where did you get a Clearstream C5 in LA to be returning it in early July?
> 
> 
> The manufacturer is taking pre-orders now, and says it won't be released until late July. The on-line web-sites selling it also say "not in stock" are taking back/pre-orders only.



See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...e#post16642463 


A small shipment was airlifted in mid-June to fill a specific need and about 100or so pre-orders were filled at that time. I heard they should have a large shipment in within a week or so that will clear out all existing pre-orders.


You might contact them as they might have a couple of "open box" specials available from mis-orders available. I heard that two which were received back were never even assembled and the other was from rbarbier.... Sounds like a pretty good rate of acceptance...


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16831606
> 
> 
> See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...e#post16642463
> 
> 
> A small shipment was airlifted in mid-June to fill a specific need and about 100or so pre-orders were filled at that time. I heard they should have a large shipment in within a week or so that will clear out all existing pre-orders.
> 
> 
> You might contact them as they might have a couple of "open box" specials available from mis-orders available. I heard that two which were received back were never even assembled and the other was from rbarbier.... Sounds like a pretty good rate of acceptance...



And mine was only installed for about 5 days on my patio and I took good care of it. I still would recommend it. I think if I was a little closer (or the stations were operating at more power), it would have worked better. The C4 with the C5 looked good together though. My C4 is lonely again.


----------



## ngarrang

I am thinking of ganging a second DB4 to my existing DB4. What is the proper distance apart their center points should be for best results centered on channel 30?


----------



## Davird_Jr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16830364
> 
> 
> I am 57 miles away also.
> 
> 
> I sent it back a few days later and picked up the AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 and get 0 signal with that one (looks like the C5 might be better then the Y5-7-13).
> 
> 
> I just hate High VHF. That is all I have to say. UHF at 57 miles away with a small C4 antenna and I get perfect UHF reception. High VHF with a 5' antenna and still no signal.



You might think about a deep fringe antenna at your distance out. I get rock solid VHF from 50 miles over mountainous terrain with a Winegard HD8200. Signal levels 90 - 100 %.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Davird_Jr* /forum/post/16832507
> 
> 
> You might think about a deep fringe antenna at your distance out. I get rock solid VHF from 50 miles over mountainous terrain with a Winegard HD8200. Signal levels 90 - 100 %.



Unfortunately, he has to keep it on his balcony. The 8200 is probably bigger than the whole balcony.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16832528
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, he has to keep it on his balcony. The 8200 is probably bigger than the whole balcony.



Yeah. Even the current 5' antenna is taking up a good amount of my space. I want something like the C5 for High VHF with a little more gain or something.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

How about make your own 16" loop with 1" or 1/2" copper tubing and put a screen behind it about 15" back?


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16832632
> 
> 
> How about make your own 16" loop with 1" or 1/2" copper tubing and put a screen behind it about 15" back?



PLEASE explain this. Would this work for 7-13 in my area?


Thanks in advance.


(I really only care about 7 (ABC) and 11 (FOX)) if that helps.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Well, people make 16" loops for the ham band 144Mhz. I was just thinking out loud.


Maybe a 15" loop and 15" Reflector Screen.


----------



## JimP

Yesterday, I attempted to increase my signal strength by reaiming my Yagi antenna to point directly at the station that I'd like to peak. It was a few degrees different. I wound up loosing a couple of points of signal strength versus aiming it to peak out the signal. Is it possible that I was getting a higher number before due to some cumulative reflection effect where I'm still better off aiming it dead on at their tower? I haven't watched enough since then to know how it affected the signal.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP* /forum/post/16833613
> 
> 
> Yesterday, I attempted to increase my signal strength by reaiming my Yagi antenna to point directly at the station that I'd like to peak . . . . . . I wound up loosing a couple of points of signal strength versus aiming it to peak out the signal. Is it possible that I was getting a higher number before due to some cumulative reflection effect where I'm still better off aiming it dead on at their tower?



Yes, it could be many things(trees, buildings, hills, system overload). It may only affect certain channels even though they are coming from the same direction. I have 17 channels coming from the same direction. All come in fine except 2, which both require re-aiming 30 degrees off axis.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16832632
> 
> 
> How about make your own 16" loop with 1" or 1/2" copper tubing and put a screen behind it about 15" back?




That would be even lower gain than either antenna already tried out....


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16830364
> 
> 
> ...I just hate High VHF. That is all I have to say. UHF at 57 miles away with a small C4 antenna and I get perfect UHF reception. High VHF with a 5' antenna and still no signal.



Same scenario for many many people in certain parts of the country.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16833828
> 
> 
> That would be even lower gain than either antenna already tried out....




Is there something similar to the V21 without channels 2-6 and without the UHF channel? Would this antenna work in my situation? Or if I just cut off the Low VHF part and use this as a UHF/High VHF antenna?


Or...how about paying somebody to make me a custom antenna for 7-13 with the highest gain and small form factor. I am willing to do this also.


Thanks.


----------



## dbdoc

Great info, all. Test equipment is only as reliable as the knowledge of the operator. I am lucky to have a modern instrument that makes it much easier. It gives the voltage level of digital signals in center value or average value, depending on mode. And seeing the waveform explains exactly why these two values might be much different.

Sencore has great tech info. Their "Seeing is Believing" on spectrum analyzers a few years ago convinced me to get a signal level meter with a spectrum display as well as the spectrum analyzer feature.


----------



## ctdish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/16833961
> 
> 
> Same scenario for many many people in certain parts of the country.



Not here. AT 50 miles VHF near perfect. On UHF half the stations come in intermittently on a single UHF antenna, the rest not at all.

John


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/16834731
> 
> 
> Not here. AT 50 miles VHF near perfect. On UHF half the stations come in intermittently on a single UHF antenna, the rest not at all.
> 
> John



What antennas are you using for UHF/VHF?


----------



## rbarbier

Could I be overloading my TV? According to TVfool, my High VHF signals are 18.5, 16.6, 15.5 and 12.7 NM(dB). My UHF signals start at 7.0 dB down to 1.7 dB.


I am using the CM7777 with a short cable run (like 10 feet split to 4 tuners). What is weird is that my strongest UHF channel (43..CBS 2.1) is actually one of my lowest dB signal on TVfool.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...74fa52fb44c917


----------



## arxaw

One way to tell. Bypass the 7777 and see if your signal quality improves.


You can't just unplug the power supply, you have to temporarily bypass the preamp.


But if your tvfool results are correct, overload is not likely. The 7777 might be defective, though.


----------



## JimP

Is the power supply warm or cool to the touch? It should be warm.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP* /forum/post/16835267
> 
> 
> Is the power supply warm or cool to the touch? It should be warm.



Not sure. Not at home right now. I know the 7777 works for the UHF because I do get a higher signal with UHF through the 7777. I never really had to use the 7777 for VHF until now. I know the switch inside the Amp is correct (seperate instead of combined) and FM Trap is on.


I will try running VHF antenna directly to my TV (about 15' cable run) and see if I get any signal.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16835018
> 
> 
> Could I be overloading my TV? According to TVfool, my High VHF signals are 18.5, 16.6, 15.5 and 12.7 NM(dB). My UHF signals start at 7.0 dB down to 1.7 dB.
> 
> 
> I am using the CM7777 with a short cable run (like 10 feet split to 4 tuners). What is weird is that my strongest UHF channel (43..CBS 2.1) is actually one of my lowest dB signal on TVfool.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...74fa52fb44c917





Pretty much zero chance of overload from the actual signals. Usually don't have to worry about that until the TVFool Rx level is more positive than -20 dBm or so. You might try an FM trap (check FMfool.com for any nearby FM stations.)


Try also running straight from the VHF > 7777> to a single set.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16832847
> 
> 
> Well, people make 16" loops for the ham band 144Mhz. I was just thinking out loud.
> 
> 
> Maybe a 15" loop and 15" Reflector Screen.



Optimum Circular Loop diameter for the Hi-VHF Band is 24-inches using 1/2-in pipe,

23-inches for QuarterInchCopperTubing, 21.5-inches for AWG12 and 21-inches for

AWG26 (tiny wire taped to window):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/vhfloop 

So Loop Reflector would probably be about 5-percent larger....next on my list...


Other antenna analyzes can also be found here:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Thanks Holl_ands!


----------



## Neil L




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16836532
> 
> 
> So Loop Reflector would probably be about 5-percent larger....next on my list...



...optimal spacing between the loop and reflector?


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16836019
> 
> 
> Pretty much zero chance of overload from the actual signals. Usually don't have to worry about that until the TVFool Rx level is more positive than -20 dBm or so. You might try an FM trap (check FMfool.com for any nearby FM stations.)
> 
> 
> Try also running straight from the VHF > 7777> to a single set.




Tried both ways (directly to my TV and directly from my 7777), same thing. No signal. Tried scanning without antenna then rescanning. UHF still 80% on my TV. Guess I am in a dead zone for VHF.


Guess I will dream about the days I got all my local channels in HD when they were all UHF. Maybe if I move, I will get the biggest High VHF antenna I can find. That might work.


----------



## rabbit73

*dBmV vs dBm*

Quote:
Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* 



> Since no one here is likely to be working on optical front ends and signal measurements there-in, this app-note is afar more relevant to this audience: http://www.sencore.com/uploads/files...RF_Signals.pdf
> 
> Here's another one that's pretty conservative with recommended signal levels: http://www.sencore.com/uploads/files...veGoodHDTV.pdf


Those articles are two of my favorites. But I also like this one because I have found that old signal level meters designed for analog signals are still useful for digital signals:
Quote: Originally Posted by *holl_ands* 



> Meters and Spectrum Analyzers will give different results, depending on the
> bandwidth of the measurement filter, which is usually much less than 6 MHz:
> http://www.pi-usa.com/pdf/dtva.pdf


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote: Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* 



> Also, keep in mind that TVfool and the FCC mapping tool provide estimates of signal POWER, not voltage. To convert from the projected power value to voltage (as measured with a dB voltmeter), add 48.8 to the dBm value to convert to dBmV (into a 75 ohm load).
> 
> As an example, if the forecast signal strength were -48.8 dBm, a unity gain (0 dB) antenna were used, and the circuit were perfect (no losses or mismatches), the dB voltmeter should read 0 dBmV, a -58.8 dBm forecast should read -10 dBmV, a -38.8 dBm forecast should read +10 dBmv, etc


Your conversion factor of 48.8 is correct when going from dBm to dBmV, but there is no such thing as a dB voltmeter. Decibels express a difference in power levels. If not, how could you use the constant conversion factor when going from dBm to dBmV?

Signal level meters that are calibrated in dBm and dBmV both measure signal power, not voltage. Each uses a different reference level to compare with the signal to be measured, but the difference between these two reference levels is constant. That is what makes it possible to use the conversion factor:

The 0 dBm reference level = 1 mW

Converting the 0 dBmV reference level also to power (E squared divided by R):
0 dBmV reference level = 1.33333E-05 mW

This could also be stated as 0.0000133333 mW, but using the powers-of-ten engineering notation as above makes it possible to retain more significant figures on the average handheld scientific calculator. (You can also say it as "1.33333 times ten to the minus five milliwatts.")

dB ratio = 10 log (P1/P2) = 10 log (1/1.33333E-05) = 48.7506 dB

The dB ratio could have also been calculated using the voltages from each reference level and the formula dB = 20 log (E1/E2), but the reference level for dBm is by definition 1 mW of power. If we convert the reference level for dBm to voltage the impedance must also be 75 ohms. The reference level voltage for 0 dBm for 75 ohms is 0.274 Vrms, but it is 0.224 Vrms for 50 ohms.

To quote the ARRL Handbook:



> Sometimes there is confusion about whether the decibel was calculated using power, voltage or current. Since the current and voltage equations use 20 instead of 10 times the log term, some hams believe the "voltage" or "current" decibel is different than one calculated using power. This is not true, however. There is ony one decibel definition, and that is ten times the log of a power ratio.


I like to use these sites when making conversions:
http://www.soontai.com/cal_exunit.html
http://www.jneuhaus.com/volts_to_dBm.html
http://www.cabletronix.com/pdf/dB Conversion Chart.pdf

Signals that are stronger than the reference level are assigned a positive value. Signals that are weaker than the reference level are assigned a negative value. Signals that are equal to the reference level are assigned a zero value (which doesn't mean no signal). The accuracy of the meter depends upon its calibration and the standards used for calibration.

Fortunately, we don't need to know the absolute value of the power measurement to a high degree of accuracy because most of our measurements are comparisons to find the strongest signal when aiming an antenna, finding the best location for an antenna, comparing antennas, and measuring loss in a distribution system. When making comparisons, meter linearity is important. This is easily checked with a built-in or external fixed attenuator.

A signal level meter (SLM) that uses a dB scale with a reference level of 1mV across 75 ohms for 0 dBmV is a relative power meter, not a voltmeter. It allows us to measure signal levels in dBmV, cable loss in dB, amplifier gain in dB, and make dB comparisons of antennas---all differences in power, not voltage. It's very convenient, because you can easily add or subtract decibel values. The "V" in dBmV is only to tell us what reference level is being used.

The older field strength meters (FSM) that came before the SLMs calibrated in dBmV used microvolts. They WERE signal voltmeters, and used the same reference level of 1000 microvolts (equals 1mV), but the scale was calibrated in microvolts. The later field strength meters included a dB scale along with the microvolt scale, which was the transition instrument between the early field strength meters and the present SLMs:










Notice that 10 times the voltage gives a 20 dB difference in power. This explains why some of the early field strength meters, calibrated in microvolts, had 20 dB attenuators marked with the label "10," for ten times the voltage.

A meter scale can be calibrated in any units that are appropriate for the application. Which scale you use determines what you name the meter. If you use the microvolts scale you can call it a voltmeter. If you use the dB scale, it becomes a relative power meter.

So, your meter to measure signals can be calibrated in microvolts, dB, dBmV, or as in the photo above with two scales: one for microvolts and one for dB (but not "dB microvolts"). I don't think there is such a thing as a "dB voltmeter" because I'm not aware of a measurement unit called "dB volt."

Many years ago I attended a seminar led by Gordon Gow, longtime president of McIntosh Laboratory (mfg of high-end high-fi equipment). Whenever he hired a new EE as an employee, he had to sit him down to talk about decibels and invariably had to tell him that "there is no such thing as a voltage decibel. Decibels indicate a POWER ratio."

A measurement unit cannot be an expression of power and voltage at the same time; it is not consistent with Ohm's Law. Given enough information, one can be calculated from the other, but they are not synonymous. Please look at the screen shot below of digital channel 31 from my Sadelco DisplayMax 800 and note that the reading of +13.4 dBmV is labeled PWR:










Q.E.D.


----------



## Davird_Jr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16837480
> 
> 
> Tried both ways (directly to my TV and directly from my 7777), same thing. No signal. Tried scanning without antenna then rescanning. UHF still 80% on my TV. Guess I am in a dead zone for VHF.
> 
> 
> Guess I will dream about the days I got all my local channels in HD when they were all UHF. Maybe if I move, I will get the biggest High VHF antenna I can find. That might work.



I did not realize you only had a balcony to mount the antenna. You might try looking around your neighborhood to see what antennas other people are using.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Davird_Jr* /forum/post/16838309
> 
> 
> I did not realize you only had a balcony to mount the antenna. You might try looking around your neighborhood to see what antennas other people are using.



Not too many people have antennas around here and the ones that I do see are old. I really don't see huge antennas out here but I don't know what kind of reception they have either. The balcony worked/works perfect for me with my C4 UHF antenna. I even had perfect UHF digital with my Squareshooter 1000 at 57 miles away. I think my location might be optimized for UHF signals or something. Just can't get the High VHF stations at my location.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16838501
> 
> 
> Just can't get the High VHF stations at my location.



Your TVFool results show almost all of your VHF signals as 1Edge which indicates that there is some sort of obstruction between you and the transmitters. That probably explains why you're having such a hard time finding an antenna that works well for VHF.


I assume that your balcony faces toward the transmitters. Have you tried aiming the antenna at various angles? Sometimes aiming the antenna in a slightly different direction will allow you to pickup a reflected signal.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/16838568
> 
> 
> Your TVFool results show almost all of your VHF signals as 1Edge which indicates that there is some sort of obstruction between you and the transmitters. That probably explains why you're having such a hard time finding an antenna that works well for VHF.
> 
> 
> I assume that your balcony faces toward the transmitters. Have you tried aiming the antenna at various angles? Sometimes aiming the antenna in a slightly different direction will allow you to pickup a reflected signal.



Yeah. My balcony faces the correct direction. I tried all directions but still nothing.


I thought VHF was supposed to be better with obstructions. All my UHF stations are 1Edge and from the same degrees and I don't have any issues. I can even have my C4 antenna inside my apartment and I still get a usable signal for most of my UHF stations. I can even lay my C4 on the floor of the balcony and I still get a reception (I live on the second floor).


I will keep playing around with the VHF antenna and see what happens. I might just get a second UHF antenna and face it towards San Diego and at least have Fox5 from San Diego (about 77 miles away). I am able to get that station most of the time even though my antenna is facing the LA towers.


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16838661
> 
> 
> I thought VHF was supposed to be better with obstructions.



I know it's supposed to propagate better through trees, but I'm not sure about other obstructions.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16838661
> 
> 
> I will keep playing around with the VHF antenna and see what happens.



You might try angling it up a just a bit if you can. Sometimes that helps too. Good luck.


----------



## JimP




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16838661
> 
> 
> Yeah. My balcony faces the correct direction. I tried all directions but still nothing.
> 
> 
> I thought VHF was supposed to be better with obstructions. All my UHF stations are 1Edge and from the same degrees and I don't have any issues. I can even have my C4 antenna inside my apartment and I still get a usable signal for most of my UHF stations. I can even lay my C4 on the floor of the balcony and I still get a reception (I live on the second floor).
> 
> 
> I will keep playing around with the VHF antenna and see what happens. I might just get a second UHF antenna and face it towards San Diego and at least have Fox5 from San Diego (about 77 miles away). I am able to get that station most of the time even though my antenna is facing the LA towers.



I'm new at this, so I'm throwing this out there for others to comment on.


The AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 VHF antenna you used specifications read "Mileage VHF:60 Miles" which I believe presumes that you have perfect conditions and no line loss. Even with an amplifier, you don't have enough signal at 57 miles to amplify for it to matter.


If you're looking for a dual antenna solution, then the VHF antenna should be something like the Antennacraft Y10-7-13 rated up to 100 miles for high band VHF. Note that its 10' long. Here's a comparison of antennacraft's 3 Yagi style antennas. http://www.antennacraft.net/Yagi.html


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP* /forum/post/16838845
> 
> 
> I'm new at this, so I'm throwing this out there for others to comment on.
> 
> 
> The AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 VHF antenna you used specifications read "Mileage VHF:60 Miles" which I believe presumes that you have perfect conditions and no line loss. Even with an amplifier, you don't have enough signal at 57 miles to amplify for it to matter.
> 
> 
> If you're looking for a dual antenna solution, then the VHF antenna should be something like the Antennacraft Y10-7-13 rated up to 100 miles for high band VHF. Note that its 10' long. Here's a comparison of antennacraft's 3 Yagi style antennas. http://www.antennacraft.net/Yagi.html



Yeah. That might work but I find it ridiculous that i need a 10' long antenna for the same signal as my 28" long antenna. 10' might be too long for my balcony.


----------



## finlay648




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16838891
> 
> 
> Yeah. That might work but I find it ridiculous that i need a 10' long antenna for the same signal as my 28" long antenna. 10' might be too long for my balcony.



Is it possible that you are getting a lot of multipath reception on VHF? When my local stations switched to VHF digital I had problems in spite of having lots of signal strength. I have a Zenith CECB that showed lots of signal but I couldn't get reliable digital reception because the multipath reception increased a lot with VHF. I had to move that antenna around until I found a sweet spot.


----------



## JimP




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16838891
> 
> 
> Yeah. That might work but I find it ridiculous that i need a 10' long antenna for the same signal as my 28" long antenna. 10' might be too long for my balcony.



Therein lies the problem. It isn't the same signal.


But as you said, you can get another UHF antenna and point it in the opposite direction and pick up the same networks with other stations. If you can do so *reliably* with a second 28" long antenna, why not do that?


Another option that is out there but gets away from free TV is to go satellite and pick up distant locals. Just be sure that you've got line of sight for the satellites that do locals.


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16838661
> 
> 
> All my UHF stations are 1Edge and from the same degrees and I don't have any issues.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/16838759
> 
> 
> You might try angling it up a just a bit if you can. Sometimes that helps too. Good luck.



try that it makes a big difference for 1edge



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16838891
> 
> 
> Yeah. That might work but I find it ridiculous that i need a 10' long antenna for the same signal as my 28" long antenna. 10' might be too long for my balcony.



not ridiculous just the laws of nature.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *finlay648* /forum/post/16839380
> 
> 
> Is it possible that you are getting a lot of multipath reception on VHF?



if you have multipath overload then eliminating some of that may help. people have placed antennas in wire cages to cut down paths other than from the front. maybe cumbersome and not nice to look at but it does work.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP* /forum/post/16839451
> 
> 
> Therein lies the problem. It isn't the same signal.
> 
> 
> But as you said, you can get another UHF antenna and point it in the opposite direction and pick up the same networks with other stations. If you can do so *reliably* with a second 28" long antenna, why not do that?
> 
> 
> Another option that is out there but gets away from free TV is to go satellite and pick up distant locals. Just be sure that you've got line of sight for the satellites that do locals.



I already have DirecTV. I like using my antenna for local TV because I have it running into my Media Center PC with 3 digital tuners and one analog tuner. This allows me to record multiple shows at one time for free plus unlimited space on my PC. Plus, the quality of the OTA channels are much better than the DirecTV channels.


----------



## rbarbier




johnpost said:


> not ridiculous just the laws of nature.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Yeah. I understandy WHY VHF needs a bigger antenna. I just think that if UHF requires smaller antennas, why not just go with UHF? Not everyone can put up 15' antennas for free TV.


----------



## JimP

Then the next guy wants to get VHF from a 100 miles out and doesn't want to put up an even larger antenna. When do you say that due to your choice of where to live that you have the consequences of poorer OTA reception.


----------



## rgharrin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16837480
> 
> 
> Tried both ways (directly to my TV and directly from my 7777), same thing. No signal. Tried scanning without antenna then rescanning. UHF still 80% on my TV. Guess I am in a dead zone for VHF.
> 
> 
> Guess I will dream about the days I got all my local channels in HD when they were all UHF. Maybe if I move, I will get the biggest High VHF antenna I can find. That might work.



I feel your pain. Exactly the same problem. Got all the stations from 65 mi.

Then FOX decided to be the only VHF station (15kW). Can't get it at all.

Even those with VHF antennas have failed.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16836019
> 
> 
> Pretty much zero chance of overload from the actual signals. Usually don't have to worry about that until the TVFool Rx level is more positive than -20 dBm or so. You might try an FM trap (check FMfool.com for any nearby FM stations.)
> 
> 
> Try also running straight from the VHF > 7777> to a single set.




Here is my FM Fool info. Do you see any issues? I have the FM Trap set to "ON" on my 7777.


Thanks.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP* /forum/post/16839970
> 
> 
> Then the next guy wants to get VHF from a 100 miles out and doesn't want to put up an even larger antenna. When do you say that due to your choice of where to live that you have the consequences of poorer OTA reception.




I don't live 100 miles out. I live 57 miles out. Also, I get perfect reception with UHF and did for over 4 years. I can understand if I didn't get any reception for either UHF or VHF but if I am able to get perfect UHF then I don't see the problem. I don't think 57 miles away is asking for too much for reliable reception without drastic measures.


Like I said, I even had perfect UHF reception with a small Square Shooter 1000 that is only 16" square. Now, I am using a "larger" C4 for UHF (if you call 28" large).


Plus, I know other people that are closer then me (and further then me), that also lost reception with High VHF and they have bigger High VHF antenna then I do.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rgharrin* /forum/post/16839975
> 
> 
> I feel your pain. Exactly the same problem. Got all the stations from 65 mi.
> 
> Then FOX decided to be the only VHF station (15kW). Can't get it at all.
> 
> Even those with VHF antennas have failed.



Exactly. That is the point I am trying to make. People have their "theories" about VHF traveling further then UHF, or that VHF will penetrate structures more, but from first hand expierence, this is not true.


----------



## Davird_Jr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16840008
> 
> 
> Exactly. That is the point I am trying to make. People have their "theories" about VHF traveling further then UHF, or that VHF will penetrate structures more, but from first hand expierence, this is not true.



On the other hand here at my location the exact opposite is true. VHF reliable, UHF unreliable. Wish all my stations were on VHF. I guess we all just have to make the best of our particular location. If you could swing the 10 foot antenna I would try that. I would bet much better than what you were trying. OTA is important to you so it may be your only choice. Here a 14 foot antenna is the norm if you want good OTA. And a lot of people here refuse to get sat and there is no cable. But it is very rural here and lots of mountains so people don't mind getting monster antennas. Problem for UHF is there is no monster antenna to improve reception. Best UHF antennas here are marginal. I might try stacking antennas to try and improve my UHF. Now you want to talk about a monster!


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16840008
> 
> 
> Exactly. That is the point I am trying to make. People have their "theories" about VHF traveling further then UHF, or that VHF will penetrate structures more, but from first hand expierence, this is not true.



have you tried tilting your antenna up as was suggested. sometimes necessary for 1 edge.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Davird_Jr* /forum/post/16840541
> 
> 
> On the other hand here at my location the exact opposite is true. VHF reliable, UHF unreliable. Wish all my stations were on VHF. I guess we all just have to make the best of our particular location. If you could swing the 10 foot antenna I would try that. I would bet much better than what you were trying. OTA is important to you so it may be your only choice. Here a 14 foot antenna is the norm if you want good OTA. And a lot of people here refuse to get sat and there is no cable. But it is very rural here and lots of mountains so people don't mind getting monster antennas. Problem for UHF is there is no monster antenna to improve reception. Best UHF antennas here are marginal. I might try stacking antennas to try and improve my UHF. Now you want to talk about a monster!



I would say have the stations broadcast on UHF and VHF. I think there are 4 free UHF frequencies they can use in the Los Angeles area for 7, 9, 11 and 13. Keep them on High VHF for the people that like VHF and put them on UHF for all the other people.


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnpost* /forum/post/16840612
> 
> 
> have you tried tilting your antenna up as was suggested. sometimes necessary for 1 edge.




Tried up/down/left/right/sideways/upside down/kids holding it/wife holding it/dog holding it/on the floor/high in the air/without pre-amp/with pre-amp/with splitter/without splitter/C4 antenna/C5 antenna/y5-713 antenna/different cables/double scan.


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16840638
> 
> 
> Tried up/down/left/right/sideways/upside down/kids holding it/wife holding it/dog holding it/on the floor/high in the air/without pre-amp/with pre-amp/with splitter/without splitter/C4 antenna/C5 antenna/y5-713 antenna/different cables/double scan.



Sometimes I think we need better test equipment to isolate problems. A spectrum analyzer and/or frequency selectable power meter would probably be very helpful in solving your problems. The spectrum analyzer would give a picture of the RF spectrum and power as received by your antenna to verify there is or is not a signal to be had at the frequency expected as well as show adjacent emissions, noise, etc. There are probably other TV related test equipment devices that would be useful too, but I'm not sure what (hey, I'm an analog RF guy living in a digital world







).


Unfortunately, most test equipment is too expensive for individuals to own. Wonder if there is any sort of inexpensive panadaptor/spectrum analyzer software that could be installed on a computer rather than a stand alone hardware appliance? Alternatively, perhaps there is an opportunity to create test equipment coops where members pool fees to buy equipment they can borrow when needed. Don't know what the best solution is but the comments I see here sure point to the need for better test equipment in the hands of consumers to isolate problems and save people time and money.


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnpost* /forum/post/16840612
> 
> 
> have you tried tilting your antenna up as was suggested. sometimes necessary for 1 edge.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16840638
> 
> 
> Tried up/down/left/right/sideways/upside down/kids holding it/wife holding it/dog holding it/on the floor/high in the air/without pre-amp/with pre-amp/with splitter/without splitter/C4 antenna/C5 antenna/y5-713 antenna/different cables/double scan.



not saying in your case but aiming digital is far different than analog.


just a couple degrees different makes a big difference.


if you are using a tv or converter box as your indicator you need to wait half a minute or more after every increment of movement to detect it. what would probably be a 6 beer project if you have a hard reception situation.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16840638
> 
> 
> Tried up/down/left/right/sideways/upside down/kids holding it/wife holding it/dog holding it/on the floor/high in the air/without pre-amp/with pre-amp/with splitter/without splitter/C4 antenna/C5 antenna/y5-713 antenna/different cables/double scan.



you said you use an PC to watch TV. right? if so, then try this: place the antenna far from the computer. I have two Desktop PCs in the living room where my antenna is. the first PC is about 8 feet away from the antenna and causes heavy interference. the second one is farther away and causes no interference. i have analog Hauppauge TV cards in each PC.


the place where I get the best VHF reception is the kitchen, with the antenna 6 inches (not feet!) off the floor.... (!)


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16841357
> 
> 
> you said you use an PC to watch TV. right? if so, then try this: place the antenna far from the computer. I have two Desktop PCs in the living room where my antenna is. the first PC is about 8 feet away from the antenna and causes heavy interference. the second one is farther away and causes no interference. i have analog Hauppauge TV cards in each PC.
> 
> 
> the place where I get the best VHF reception is the kitchen, with the antenna 6 inches (not feet!) off the floor.... (!)



Thanks for the suggestion but when I test my antenna, I have my computer off (I use my TV to check the signal because it has a better meter than Media Center).


Does VHF get more interference than UHF because I don't have any interference with UHF when I use my computer and the antenna is close to my PC?


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16840638
> 
> 
> Tried up/down/left/right/sideways/upside down/kids holding it/wife holding it/dog holding it/on the floor/high in the air/without pre-amp/with pre-amp/with splitter/without splitter/C4 antenna/C5 antenna/y5-713 antenna/different cables/double scan.



Have you checked the Los Angeles, CA - OTA thread to see what works for other people in the area? Seems like I've read a lot of complaints on other threads about reception issues in the Los Angeles area. People on the local thread might have a little more insight into your situation.


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16841357
> 
> 
> the place where I get the best VHF reception is the kitchen, with the antenna 6 inches (not feet!) off the floor.... (!)



is that with your VHF-LO antenna?


----------



## rbarbier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rick313* /forum/post/16841606
> 
> 
> Have you checked the Los Angeles, CA - OTA thread to see what works for other people in the area? Seems like I've read a lot of complaints on other threads about reception issues in the Los Angeles area. People on the local thread might have a little more insight into your situation.



Yup. Same issues. A lot of people are having issues with the High VHF but there are some that are having better signal with High VHF than with UHF. The answer is to get the biggest VHF antenna.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rbarbier* /forum/post/16841507
> 
> 
> Does VHF get more interference than UHF because I don't have any interference with UHF when I use my computer and the antenna is close to my PC?



My UHF channels are marginally affected by the PCs. the VHF charnels, on the other hand, become unwatchable.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnpost* /forum/post/16841629
> 
> 
> is that with your VHF-LO antenna?



currently, my antenna is a home-made folded dipole made of 12 AWG wire specifically built For Hi-VHF. I'm waiting for a CM2016 to be shipped by Solid Signal.


----------



## dbdoc

Yes, my SLM does refer to the average level of a digital signal as the power level of the channel.


----------



## nordloewelabs

the problem with Hi-VHF, from what i have been able to gather so far, is that -- even though the FCC is well acquainted with this particular band -- their experience is mostly founded on its use to broadcast *NTSC* signals. people behind the ATSC format seem to have worried too little about reception in the following scenarios:


a) in the *cities*.

b) with *indoor antennas*.

c) on *Hi-VHF*.


to make things worse, the FCC seems to also have performed too little tests in the 3 scenarios above. in other words, both the creation of ATSC and its deployment have been done in a rather sloppy fashion. a few days ago, I was reading about other over-the-air DTV technologies such as the ones employed in Europe (*DVB-T*), Japan (*ISDB-T*) and Brazil (*ISDB-Tb*).... the latter 2 are basically the same and were designed from the ground up with indoors and city reception in mind.


obviously, we all stand on the shoulders of Giants. all DTV formats used nowadays have sipped heavily from the ATSC Fountain (which started it all) and learnt the Good, the Bad and the Ugly. the question is, will the FCC fix ATSC someday? the use of VHF seems to be its biggest blunder....


all my personal opinion of course...


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16842102
> 
> 
> people behind the ATSC format seem to have worried too little about reception in the following scenarios:
> 
> 
> a) in the *cities*.
> 
> b) with *indoor antennas*.
> 
> c) on *Hi-VHF*.



The ATSC committee knew the DTV limitations of VHF. Unfortunately, the close packing of analog VHF stations prevented the FCC from assigning the transmitter powers that were suggested by the ATSC folks. The FCC did all that they could given the facts at hand.


Now we have some VHF stations asking for enough power to fix VHF, and others who changed their mind because they know now that UHF is the sweet spot for mobile video.


With sufficient power, VHF is still better than UHF for DTV in the fringes. The question now is what's the market? Is it conventional at home off-air viewing or Watchman type cell phones? The former favors VHF, the latter UHF. I believe that both are equally valuable.


----------



## systems2000

I've been wondering lately if the manufacturers of antennas need to rethink their designs. Which is truely best for DTV reception ¼-wave, ½-wave, or full-wave designs?


Those that I know who get solid VHF reception are using antennas that are much larger than needed for NTSC reception in the same location.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16843735
> 
> 
> I've been wondering lately if the manufacturers of antennas need to rethink their designs.



What is need is for their VHF antennas to be made more directional since multipath and ATSC don't go well together. maybe they don't need to do anything new. they merely need to remove omni-directional VHF antennas from their catalog.


----------



## nordloewelabs

by the way, is it possible to build the converter boxes so that they can handle multipath better?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16844044
> 
> 
> by the way, is it possible to build the converter boxes so that they can handle multipath better?



That improvement has been taking place with each successive generation of tuner chip-sets.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

There is a rumor going around that Wade is discontinuing their Delhi consumer antenna line. Can anybody confirm that?


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16844092
> 
> 
> That improvement has been taking place with each successive generation of tuner chip-sets.



so in all likelihood, the FCC won't change a thing about how DTV gets deployed. the industry, on the other hard, will adapt its tuners and antennas to compensate for the bad decisions made so far.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Your conversion factor of 48.8 is correct when going from dBm to dBmV, but there is no such thing as a dB voltmeter. Decibels express a difference in power levels. If not, how could you use the constant conversion factor when going from dBm to dBmV?



Thanks for noting my imprecise terminology! I should have referred to it simply as a Signal Level Meter (SLM) for accuracy.


Nice seeing that meter scale. Makes it easier to understand.


Ah, my head hurts ... I'll have to think about this.


----------



## serndipity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16843735
> 
> 
> I've been wondering lately if the manufacturers of antennas need to rethink their designs. Which is truely best for DTV reception ¼-wave, ½-wave, or full-wave designs?
> 
> 
> Those that I know who get solid VHF reception are using antennas that are much larger than needed for NTSC reception in the same location.



I could not agree more.


Quite frankly, they're still designing and making antennas like it is still 1950., .



Now that many DTV stations have returned to their VHF channel assignments, much of what you will find available (both in DIY or commercial antennas), may no longer be well suited (e.g. monstrous).



I believe that there is a better solution and am working on a DIY design that is very unique (out of the box thinking) that is:



Simple and easy to build (e.g. only requires 6th grade math, has no critical dimensions, phasing lines, reflector etc.).




Scalable (e.g. compact size for VHF/UHF coverage, much smaller than current VHF/UHF combination antennas).




Wide-band (e.g. near flat SWR over the VHF/UHF bandwidth which eliminates SWR losses).




Has high gain and directionality.



At this time, I have built a UHF version which compares to my DIY C2 type wide-band double loop, 4 bay bow tie, as well as a 13 element LPDA (exceeds all on VHF high band reception).



Although I am quite certain of the design scalability, I have yet to build a VHF/UHF version for verification.




Stay tuned.


----------



## nordloewelabs

according to TVFool, the 3 Hi-VHF channels in my area have Power of at least -38dBm. however, as many others here, i cant receive them well. probably due to ATSC's heavy susceptibility to multipath interference in the VHF band. 3 weeks ago i ordered a CM2016 from SolidSignal but havent received it yet (still out-of-stock) and this wait has given me time to ponder.... now i'm thinking about changing my order to get something more directional. on Hi-VHF, the CM2016 is omni-directional and has a gain of only 2dB.


the antennas i'm contemplating (for use *indoors*) are:

RCA ANT751 (cant find specs anywhere)
AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 
AntennaCraft HBU22 


i know some of them are Hi-VHF only but since UHF channels come so easy in my apartment (i get all of them with my home-made 12 AWG Folded Dipole), i'll probably be able to receive UHF stations with a VHF-only antenna (right???







). i certainly dont like their sizes for use indoors but i've become rather pessimistic about improvements in the Hi-VHF band. does anyone want to opine on the antennas listed above? please, feel free to do so.


----------



## nordloewelabs

i noticed a thing about the Winegard HD-1080 .... its gain on ch-7 is -11dB! what does that mean? does it give only 10% of the gain of a reference dipole?!?! if so, why would anyone use it instead of a dipole? worse yet, why would Winegard advertise it as a Hi-VHF/UHF antenna?


what am i missing?


----------



## kedirekin

It does indeed mean its gain is less than one-tenth the gain of a dipole, at least on channel 7. Performance on higher VHF is much better.


They advertise it as a VHF-HI/UHF antenna because they can get away with it, and despite the low gain it probably works fairly well for near-suburban use.


----------



## ctdish

I don't know if the channel 7 gain is correct but the front to back numbers make no sense and have to be wrong and the VHF beawidths are suspect.

John


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kedirekin* /forum/post/16846525
> 
> 
> They advertise it as a VHF-HI/UHF antenna because they can get away with it, and despite the low gain it probably works fairly well for near-suburban use.



It does in my area. It actually works better on VHF 8 than the Clearstream C-4.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> They advertise it as a VHF-HI/UHF antenna because they can get away with it, and despite the low gain it probably works fairly well for near-suburban use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> It does in my area. It actually works better on VHF 8 than the Clearstream C-4.
Click to expand...


frankly, this doesnt say much as the ClearStream antennas are a major piece of false advertisement VHF-wise.


----------



## serndipity




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16846388
> 
> 
> i noticed a thing about the Winegard HD-1080 .... its gain on ch-7 is -11dB! what does that mean? does it give only 10% of the gain of a reference dipole?!?! if so, why would anyone use it instead of a dipole? worse yet, why would Winegard advertise it as a Hi-VHF/UHF antenna? what am i missing?



The field strength produced by an antenna is proportional to the current flowing in it. The ratio of power required to produce a given field strength with a 'comparison' antenna to the power required to produce the same field strength with a specified type of antenna is called the power gain, or loss, of the latter antenna.


The number of decibels corresponding to a given power ratio is:


dB = 10 log P2/P1


The power ratio for -11 dB is .07943, which comparatively, means that less than 8% of the of the signal is available.


BTW, the ratio for -3 dB is .5 or a loss of one half the power.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *serndipity* /forum/post/16844208
> 
> 
> Quite frankly, they're still designing and making antennas like it is still 1950., .
> 
> 
> I believe that there is a better solution and am working on a DIY design that is very unique (out of the box thinking) that is:
> 
> 
> Simple and easy to build (e.g. only requires 6th grade math, has no critical dimensions, phasing lines, reflector etc.).
> 
> 
> Scalable (e.g. compact size for VHF/UHF coverage, much smaller than current VHF/UHF combination antennas).
> 
> 
> Wide-band (e.g. near flat SWR over the VHF/UHF bandwidth which eliminates SWR losses).
> 
> 
> Has high gain and directionality.
> 
> 
> At this time, I have built a UHF version which compares to my DIY C2 type wide-band double loop, 4 bay bow tie, as well as a 13 element LPDA (exceeds all on VHF high band reception).
> 
> 
> Although I am quite certain of the design scalability, I have yet to build a VHF/UHF version for verification.
> 
> 
> Stay tuned.



Looking forward to your DIY design.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/16846532
> 
> 
> I don't know if the channel 7 gain is correct but the front to back numbers make no sense and have to be wrong and the VHF beawidths are suspect.
> 
> John



F/B and BW numbers make perfect sense, once you understand at VHF

there are no reflectors or directors, hence it is bi-directional, like a dipole.


For example fol. Folded Dipole has 2.06 dBi Gain, 80-deg BW and 0 dB F/B on Ch7.

[It eventually reaches 2.15 dBi (0 dBd) Gain on Ch9 and climbs to 2.24 dBi on Ch13.]


----------



## ctdish

I was looking at the small negative F/B for UHF. Should be larger and positive and the 0 deg. BW for channels 13 and 14.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/16837993
> 
> 
> Your conversion factor of 48.8 is correct when going from dBm to dBmV, but there is no such thing as a dB voltmeter.



I disagree in the general term, since Wikipedia has a fairly good description here I will not attempt my own view. More can be found here .


I will say there are very few thermal reading meters (true power) available. Most meters with dBm scales are simply Volt meters with dBm scales. The reading is correct as long as the reference load is correct. There are many dB meters and they too are just volt meters with dB scales.


This is correct: I measured the audio level and it is +4 dBm (600 Ω load)

This is incorrect: I measured the audio level and it is +4 dBm (10K Ω load)

This is correct: I measured the audio level and it is +4 dBu (10K Ω load)

This is correct: I measured the audio level and it is +4 dBu (1K Ω load)


In all four examples the actual voltage across the load should be 1.23 volts.


There is an old expression a dB is a dB.


----------



## Charles Cook

I have recently installed a new Winegard AP 8275 preamp and power unit (replacing an exact model 20 years old), new 300 ohm balun, and RG-6 downlead on my (approx) 25 ft outside antenna, the same combination that I have used for the past 20 years, except for previously using RG-59 for the downlead. Strangest thing is, when using the AP 8275 preamp and power unit, I receive NO channels or FM signal. However, I receive generall good channel signals and FM reception when I remove the (tower) pre-amp. The attic installed power unit seems to have no effect, etc.


Strangest thing is, as noted above, I have used this combination for 20 years (same, older preamp [model Windgard AP 8775] minus the RG-6 and using RG-59), and everything worked normally.


I am not electronically qualified, but (being an old, non-active ham) have been rigging my own antennas, etc., for years, and find this perplexing, to say the least! Could the advent of DTV have increased the likelyhood of overload to the extent that the implementation of RG-6 is the causal factor?


Any hints would be appreciated!


C D Cook


----------



## Dan Kolton

I have significant pixilation and dropouts between 6 and 7 pm on one channel. Great picture much earlier or later. This channel is 4.9 miles away at 65 degrees and is at -17.5dbm per tvfool. At 61 degrees and 2.5 miles (-17.6dbm) is another channel with which I never have problems. Both are LOS, but my attic mounted CM4221 looks through trees. This, however, is equally true for both channels. My Tivo "signal strength" is close to the same for both channels, and hardly shows the problem. The same comparison pretty much holds using a CM7000 CECB and a set-top dipole.


Any ideas?


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Charles Cook* /forum/post/16847916
> 
> 
> Any hints would be appreciated!



Double check your connections to the power inserter, check the DC out of the power inserter (spigot labeled ANT). If all is good then you may have a defective pre-amp. And there is the possibility that it is overloaded.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/16847475
> 
> 
> I was looking at the small negative F/B for UHF. Should be larger and positive and the 0 deg. BW for channels 13 and 14.



I'm not surprised by the magnitude of the UHF F/B, after all it's just a 2-Bay.

Although I suspect the supporting azimuthal plots must be some funny,

stretched scale that greatly exaggerates the F/B numbers....and you're right,

F/B numbers should be POSITIVE.


The Winegard Spec Sheet is the source of these typos (/fantasies?):
http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload/HD-1080.pdf


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Wendell R. Breland* /forum/post/16847844
> 
> 
> I disagree in the general term, since Wikipedia has a fairly good description here I will not attempt my own view. More can be found here .
> 
> 
> I will say there are very few thermal reading meters (true power) available. Most meters with dBm scales are simply Volt meters with dBm scales. The reading is correct as long as the reference load is correct. There are many dB meters and they too are just volt meters with dB scales.
> 
> 
> This is correct: I measured the audio level and it is +4 dBm (600 Ω load)
> 
> This is incorrect: I measured the audio level and it is +4 dBm (10K Ω load)
> 
> This is correct: I measured the audio level and it is +4 dBu (10K Ω load)
> 
> This is correct: I measured the audio level and it is +4 dBu (1K Ω load)
> 
> 
> In all four examples the actual voltage across the load should be 1.23 volts.
> 
> 
> There is an old expression “a dB is a dB”.



How very true, many "dBm" meters are simple high impedance voltmeters....illustrating

the importance of knowing exactly what you think you are measuring and with WHAT....


Some of the more expensive hand-held DVMs have a dBm scale selection,

normally used to measure AUDIO signals....hence ref impedance is 600 ohms.

But the load impedance is very high, so make sure the point you are measuring

is connected to a load...either another piece of equipment...or a 600-ohm resistor.


Most RF equipment (power meters, spec. analyzers) I've used were 50-ohm input,

presenting a load to whatever is being measured....hence dBm ref. impedance

was 50-ohms, meaning a calibrated 75-ohm to 50-ohm "Minimum Loss Pad"

is needed to make accurate measurements in a 75-ohm system. And (rarely) there

was a switch to disconnect the internal 50-ohm load....allowing an external load,

but the dBm scale was usually calibrated only for 50-ohms.


Some of the recent, more expensive, spec. analyzers actually have the ability

to SELECT the ref. impedance....greatly simplifying when I changed between

measuring audio (600-ohms) and RF (50-ohms).....or 75-ohms...


I've seen very few "True Thermal" power meters (actually measure the heat rise).

The best are "True RMS" power meters...which is somewhat different from "Average"

power measurements more frequently found in hand-held meters:
http://www.opamp-electronics.com/tut...de_2_01_03.htm


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Charles Cook* /forum/post/16847916
> 
> 
> Any hints would be appreciated!



If you have a splitter between the pre-amp and power inserter, make sure the splitter leg that is being used has the capability to pass DC.


That brings to mind, did you get a new power inserter also? The old ones were A/C, while the new ones are DC.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Although I suspect the supporting azimuthal plots must be some funny,
> 
> stretched scale that greatly exaggerates the F/B numbers....and you're right,
> 
> F/B numbers should be POSITIVE.
> 
> 
> The Winegard Spec Sheet is the source of these typos (/fantasies?):
> http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload/HD-1080.pdf



Those are some ugly patterns. I cant see the detailed numbers, but it does look like uhf gain is flipped in the opposite direction of vhf gain, and both are skewed to some degree.


----------



## flcs3

nordloewelabs, I have skimmed though some of your previous messages,

but have not exhaustively read through them all. Apologies if what

follows has been suggested previously.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16846369
> 
> 
> according to TVFool, the 3 Hi-VHF channels in my area have Power of at least -38dBm. however, as many others here, i cant receive them well. probably due to ATSC's heavy susceptibility to multipath interference in the VHF band.



Another possibility is interference induced by strong FM stations.

fmfool suggests that most of the NYC stations are of modest power,

most below 10kW, but there are quite a few nearby. The 115 dBu

contour for a 6kW station is a radius of about 0.6 mi. In addition to using

a more directional antenna, I would try an FM trap, even if you are not

using an amp (which you probably don't need).


Since you have already built some dipoles, I would add Yagi parasitic

elements (reflector and multiple directors) until it becomes directional

enough to overpower the multipath. Even if you then want to buy a

commercially built antenna, you will have a better idea of what will

work at your location. If you get a UHF/VHF combo, you probably could

leave off the UHF corner reflectors, making the antenna flat such that it

could be mounted flush to the ceiling.


If you end up needing a very directional VHF antenna to ward off the

multipath, you may end up with overload of your tuner. You may need to

insert an attenuator. UHF/VHF joiners are cheap and work well, so do

not be too concerned about using separate UHF and VHF antennas.


As a final resort, you might have to build a Farraday cage around the

antenna to block signals from all directions other than that of your

antenna farm.


Good luck overcoming your reception problems.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16844178
> 
> 
> Nice seeing that meter scale. Makes it easier to understand.



I'm glad that you found the photo helpful. My early measurements were made in microvolts. When I bought a new meter (Sadelco 719E) in 1988 that was calibrated in dBmV I put the photo in its storage compartment to help me convert my thinking from microvolts to dBmV. More recently, because of tvfool, I have had to think in terms of dBm. I use the factor of 50 to make a quick approximate conversion from dBm to dBmV.


> Quote:
> Ah, my head hurts ... I'll have to think about this.



Sorry I made your head hurt.

I hope your head doesn't hurt even more now from information overload!


I didn't correct you to give you a hard time. I corrected you because I knew that the subject was important to you and that you are the type of person that wants to use the correct terminology.


My previous post with the meter scale edited for clarification---hope it is easier to understand. A post that involves semantics is one of the most difficult to do because the same words mean different things to different people.


----------



## ctdish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16849022
> 
> 
> Those are some ugly patterns. I cant see the detailed numbers, but it does look like uhf gain is flipped in the opposite direction of vhf gain, and both are skewed to some degree.



The link is a PDF and you can read the scale if you blow it up. The skew is odd. It looks like they did a measurement with the rotator and antenna misaligned. The UHF F/B ratios look to be in the 8 to 15 region. Not great but sort of believable.

The VHF peak response is probably correctly pointing to the rear of the UHF's antenna's front, as the screen would act like a director since its width is less than a half wavelength.

John


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Charles,


As to your question of whether the RG6 is what made the difference, the answer is a qualified "maybe".


The RG59, especially if old and degraded, might have been lossy enough to drop the signals below the overload level. The new RG6 would have eliminated that loss and pushed you back over the top.


Testing is easy. Just add a splitter or two (since they're common, cheap, and readily available almost anywhere) in series with your signal before it enters your TV or STB. Each splitter will drop the signal by 3.5 to 4 dB. If you find that it helps, either cap the unused port with a terminator or replace the splitter with a fixed or variable attenuator of the needed value.


----------



## hphase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16841754
> 
> 
> My UHF channels are marginally affected by the PCs. the VHF charnels, on the other hand, become unwatchable.



Your computer might be radiating interference on VHF frequencies. Or it's something else...



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16842102
> 
> 
> the problem with Hi-VHF, from what i have been able to gather so far, is that -- even though the FCC is well acquainted with this particular band -- their experience is mostly founded on its use to broadcast *NTSC* signals. people behind the ATSC format seem to have worried too little about reception in the following scenarios:
> 
> 
> a) in the *cities*.
> 
> b) with *indoor antennas*.
> 
> c) on *Hi-VHF*.
> 
> 
> to make things worse, the FCC seems to also have performed too little tests in the 3 scenarios above. in other words, both the creation of ATSC and its deployment have been done in a rather sloppy fashion. a few days ago, I was reading about other over-the-air DTV technologies such as the ones employed in Europe (*DVB-T*), Japan (*ISDB-T*) and Brazil (*ISDB-Tb*).... the latter 2 are basically the same and were designed from the ground up with indoors and city reception in mind.
> 
> 
> obviously, we all stand on the shoulders of Giants. all DTV formats used nowadays have sipped heavily from the ATSC Fountain (which started it all) and learnt the Good, the Bad and the Ugly. the question is, will the FCC fix ATSC someday? the use of VHF seems to be its biggest blunder....
> 
> 
> all my personal opinion of course...



It's easy to take pot-shots at ATSC and claim sloppy work. I don't think those claims would stand up. ATSC was originally developed to replicate analog TV requirements and usage in North America. Indoor and inner-city reception has sucked for a long time. Cable TV was introduced in the 1950s to address these shortcomings.


The other DTV technologies and systems you mentioned were still in the womb when ATSC was in its adolescence. Also, These new system don't travel as far, and don't carry as much data as the ATSC systems. While perhaps appropriate for SD or close-in transmission, they would not work as well at long distances, which is what was required in the US as television grew up. I doubt that a TV station would be willing to spend any money to put in repeater transmitters that would be required to serve me if they abandoned their big-stick infrastructure.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16844044
> 
> 
> by the way, is it possible to build the converter boxes so that they can handle multipath better?



As DTV became popular, and before DTV signals were carried on cable, it became apparent that the cliff effect of DTV was causing problems in urban reception, primarily due to multipath (echos.) DTV receiver chip designers went through many generations of chip design, each improving the performance in the presence of strong, early echos. That affected both VHF and UHF equally.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16844153
> 
> 
> so in all likelihood, the FCC won't change a thing about how DTV gets deployed. the industry, on the other hard, will adapt its tuners and antennas to compensate for the bad decisions made so far.



Yes, that seems to be your opinion. The FCC is adapting its rules for DTV on VHF, but the impulse noise and building penetration problems will persist. ATSC actually was designed to perform better on impulse noise than the more modern systems you mentioned. VHF frequencies were included in the DTV "core" because there wasn't enough room in the spectrum for all the stations after removing channels 52-69 (and 70-82 before that.) Also remember that there are many more OTA networks and stations in the US than there traditionlly have been in much of the rest of the world. When you only have one or two programmers and not a large area to serve, its easy to find space on the dial for everyone. Or you go to satellite.


If you can design a signal that can blast through buildings and interference, yet still not travel far enough to interfere with other stations on the same or adjacent channel, you should be creating a cure for cancer, not solving television reception.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16849022
> 
> 
> Those are some ugly patterns. I cant see the detailed numbers, but it does look like uhf gain is flipped in the opposite direction of vhf gain, and both are skewed to some degree.



W-G HD1080 spec sheet scale becomes visible when blown up. Here's a screen shot.


F/B (worst case) for Ch14 would be about 5+ dB vice "-2 dB" in the spec sheet.

The other numbers appear to be much closer (after losing the minus sign).


I'm not all that surprised to see more VHF gain towards the "back"....which would

make the F/B numbers -1, -2 and -4.4 dB for Ch9, 11 & 13...which of course

begs the question of whether these negative numbers are included in the

(negative) VHF Gain numbers. If true, the UHF Reflector elements are acting

more like Directors at VHF than Reflectors....


Since the antenna feed, et. al. are balanced, the patterns should align with the antenna,

rather than being skewed. I have to agree with your "wrong rotator alignment" comment,

although it is also possible the test lab simply copied the raw data chart, rather than

normalizing data to match the antenna alignment (same result, different twist).


The only good way to really find out the "true" performance is for someone

to actually measure the antenna dimensions so we can run a NEC model......


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The skew is odd. It looks like they did a measurement with the rotator and antenna misaligned.



I was going to guess they did the measurements with a USPS/UPS/Fed Ex shipped bent up antenna, to simulate real life scenarios, heh, heh.



> Quote:
> I'm not all that surprised to see more VHF gain towards the "back"....which would make the F/B numbers -1, -2 and -4.4 dB for Ch9, 11 & 13...which of course begs the question of whether these negative numbers are included in the (negative) VHF Gain numbers. If true, the UHF Reflector elements are acting more like Directors at VHF than Reflectors....



My modeling with adding vhf elements to uhf antennas shows its very easy to get the vhf gain going in the opposite direction to uhf gain.

While that scenario is useful for some people, (and Winegard should more prominently mention it, if that was their intention), I think most people would want and expect the vhf and uhf gain to go in the same direction.


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16853924
> 
> 
> My modeling with adding vhf elements to uhf antennas shows its very easy to get the vhf gain going in the opposite direction to uhf gain.
> 
> 
> While that scenario is useful for some people, (and Winegard should more prominently mention it, if that was their intention), I think most people would want and expect the vhf and uhf gain to go in the same direction.



Yup, most people probably would expect VHF amd UHF gain to be in the same direction, I know I would.


----------



## flcs3




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16846369
> 
> 
> ... probably due to ATSC's heavy susceptibility to multipath interference in the VHF band.



Here is an example of battling multipath with a Faraday cage:

http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~wn17/ 


Do note, however, he was working on the UHF band. A VHF band equivalent will be larger. Since this is not so practicable indoors or even on a balcony, first working with both a more directional antenna and an FM trap makes a great deal of sense.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *flcs3* /forum/post/16849052
> 
> 
> 
> Another possibility is interference induced by strong FM stations. fmfool suggests that most of the NYC stations are of modest power, most below 10kW, but there are quite a few nearby. The 115 dBu contour for a 6kW station is a radius of about 0.6 mi. In addition to using a more directional antenna, I would try an FM trap, even if you are not using an amp (which you probably don't need).



i got one of these basic







RadioShack FM Traps from eBay.... just in case. the antenna i've ordered is the Winegard HD-7694P . delivery will take a week. one of my PCs causes interference on the Hi-VHF stations. i dont know which componenet is the culprit but i'm guessing it's either the PSU or the hard drive. i'll perform test to narrow this down later.


i'll check out the cage. thanks for the info!


----------



## flcs3




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16860065
> 
> 
> one of my PCs causes interference on the Hi-VHF stations.



Ah, missed that earlier. Sorry to suggest the two most obvious things:

be sure that the case is screwed together solidly, and that there is EMI/RFI filtering in the AC power paths (e.g. Tripplite ISOBAR).


----------



## tjlmbklr

I recently went Antenna only...no more Cable/Satellite/Uverse (I have had them all).


It's strictly a money thing. The wife and I are completely happy with basic TV (I like the HD channels w/ no compression).


We live in Milwaukee WI and I would estimate we are 10 miles or so from the tower farm. I can't complain about the channels we receive but keep in mind for the last 15 years of my life I have had at least basic cable.


One of the channels we love is ME-TV Mostly old stuff like Hitchcock, Twilight Zone other great classics. I think (may be wrong) that this channel is broadcast in Racine. Racine is 180 degrees the opposite direction. Every now and again we get a choppy signal. So I was contemplating using a second anttena. Is this possible, how do you set it up then?


I am using a Monoprice antenna mounted to a pole on my chimeny (one story house some trees around)


Thanks in advance for your help!


----------



## JimP

tjlmbkllr


Many here are using dual antennas, some are fairly exotic.


Unless you get lucky with someone living in Milwaukee, for the rest of us, we need you to plot on TVfool.com and post the link here.


----------



## tjlmbklr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP* /forum/post/16861650
> 
> 
> tjlmbkllr
> 
> 
> Many here are using dual antennas, some are fairly exotic.
> 
> 
> Unless you get lucky with someone living in Milwaukee, for the rest of us, we need you to plot on TVfool.com and post the link here.



TVfool hey? I will look into that. But in the mean time I realized I posted this in a existing topic. I will have to copy paste it to a "New" topic to get better exposure.


But as for TVfool.com I will post this later I am at work and need to hit the road.


Thanks for your help!


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *flcs3* /forum/post/16860482
> 
> 
> be sure that the case is screwed together solidly, and that there is EMI/RFI filtering in the AC power paths (e.g. Tripplite ISOBAR).



if this is something buyable, i can get one.


i checked the cage.... i had seen that page before, a long time ago. that's a very interesting project but unfeasible for an apartment because it's huge.


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tjlmbklr* /forum/post/16861778
> 
> 
> TVfool hey? I will look into that. But in the mean time I realized I posted this in a existing topic. I will have to copy paste it to a "New" topic to get better exposure.
> 
> 
> But as for TVfool.com I will post this later I am at work and need to hit the road.
> 
> 
> Thanks for your help!



an existing topic is fine. your posting was noticed enough to get a reply.


but you could post into

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post16809448 


which is the forum for people in the Milwaukee area to talk about info and reception. there are probably people who are trying to get the stations you are and can comment on what they used.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *flcs3* /forum/post/16860482
> 
> 
> and that there is EMI/RFI filtering in the AC power paths (e.g. Tripplite ISOBAR).



i have 2 surge protectors here:


- an APC SurgeArrest Home/Office

- Tripp-Lite.


is there a particular feature i should make sure they have? my *guess* is that both have EMI filtering (coz it sounds like something that should be standard). the PC is connected to the APC one, which also has a 75-Ohm coaxial filter. i tested this filter before and did not notice any improvement, so i decided to connect the antenna straight to the converter box. i think the model i have is







this one . should i get a different one?


btw, i'll be using a Winegard HD 7694P indoors (talk about eye-sore...). is *grounding* necessary???


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16862475
> 
> 
> i have 2 surge protectors here:
> 
> 
> - an APC SurgeArrest Home/Office
> 
> - Tripp-Lite.
> 
> 
> is there a particular feature i should make sure they have? my *guess* is that both have EMI filtering (coz it sounds like something that should be standard). the PC is connected to the APC one, which also has a 75-Ohm coaxial filter. i tested this filter before and did not notice any improvement, so i decided to connect the antenna straight to the converter box. i think the model i have is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this one . should i get a different one?
> 
> 
> btw, i'll be using a Winegard HD 7694P indoors (talk about eye-sore...). is *grounding* necessary???




There is no requirement to ground an indoor antenna.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16862510
> 
> 
> There is no requirement to ground an indoor antenna.



just trying to make sure there's no misunderstanding.... the Winegard HD-7694P is an outdoor antenna, that i will mount indoors. still no grounding needed?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16862475
> 
> 
> i have 2 surge protectors here:
> 
> 
> - an APC SurgeArrest Home/Office
> 
> - Tripp-Lite.
> 
> 
> is there a particular feature i should make sure they have? my *guess* is that both have EMI filtering (coz it sounds like something that should be standard). the PC is connected to the APC one, which also has a 75-Ohm coaxial filter. i tested this filter before and did not notice any improvement, so i decided to connect the antenna straight to the converter box. i think the model i have is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this one . should i get a different one?
> 
> 
> btw, i'll be using a Winegard HD 7694P indoors (talk about eye-sore...). is *grounding* necessary???



The fleabay link didn't work...


APC website no longer has specs for DL11VNT, but it seems similar to P11VNT3:
http://www.apc.com/products/resource...se_sku=P11VNT3 

Note EMI/RFI Noise Suppression specs for P11VNT3 say 70+ dB (100 kHz to 10 MHz),

so it is unknown what the suppression is in VHF and UHF TV Bands....

It's probably doing some suppression, we just don't know how much....


Manual for (some) Tripplite Isobar products say 30+ dB for 6-1000 MHz:
http://www.tripplite.com/shared/tech...ual/931411.pdf 


You didn't say which Tripplite you have...nor whether it was an Isobar model.....


PS: If you use a Preamp, plug it somewhere else, other than the EMI protected power strip.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16863674
> 
> 
> APC website no longer has specs for DL11VNT, but it seems similar to P11VNT3:
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> 
> You didn't say which Tripplite you have...nor whether it was an Isobar model.....



i dont know exactly which ones i have coz the model numbers must be underneath in both. i'll try to get them at some point. thanks to you, now i know what to look for on the manual. i might buy new surge protectors.


would a supresssion of >30dB on the 6-1000 Mhz band stop the PC from interfering with the antenna? should i put the converter box and PC on different surge protectors?


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16863674
> 
> 
> The fleabay link didn't work...



which one? the one showing the RadioShack FM Trap?
http://shop.ebay.com/items/?_nkw=fm+...trap&_osacat=0 

they are all the same model i think.


----------



## JimP

What exactly does the FM filter do? Obviously it filters out the FM signal, but how does that improve reception?


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP* /forum/post/16863845
> 
> 
> What exactly does the FM filter do? Obviously it filters out the FM signal, but how does that improve reception?


 http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interfer.../fmfilter.html


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16863781
> 
> 
> which one? the one showing the RadioShack FM Trap?
> http://shop.ebay.com/items/?_nkw=fm+...trap&_osacat=0
> 
> they are all the same model i think.



The other one: rover.ebay.....


Yes put the PC on a different EMI/RFI protected power strip than Preamp & Tuner(s).

Of course if each is 30 dB isolation, total would be 60 dB....via powerline leakage path....


If PC is still interfering with TV reception, then leakage path is probably

somewhere else.....such as cables going in/out of the PC....which can

be helped with clamp on Ferrite Cores (for different size cables):
http://parts.digikey.co.uk/1/1/42557...a0592-0a2.html 
http://parts.digikey.co.uk/1/1/65779...a0392-0a2.html 
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP* /forum/post/16863845
> 
> 
> What exactly does the FM filter do? Obviously it filters out the FM signal, but how does that improve reception?



And not all FM Filters perform the same....you generally get what you pay (more) for:
http://www.tinlee.com/Graph_ALL_FM_filters.php


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16863977
> 
> 
> And not all FM Filters perform the same....you generally get what you pay (more) for:
> http://www.tinlee.com/Graph_ALL_FM_filters.php



i was planning to get Winegard FT7500 which filters the whole FM band by 26dB. however, that model has been discontinued. i dont understand how the FT76000 , its replacement, works (it seems it can only filter 2 stations). besides, it uses screws for which i dont have tools. that lead me to the RadioShack option....


----------



## NTNgod




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tjlmbklr* /forum/post/16861578
> 
> 
> One of the channels we love is ME-TV Mostly old stuff like Hitchcock, Twilight Zone other great classics. I think (may be wrong) that this channel is broadcast in Racine. Racine is 180 degrees the opposite direction



WBME is a Racine station in name only. Its digital signal (which isn't the strongest) is broadcast from Milwaukee.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16836532
> 
> 
> Optimum Circular Loop diameter for the Hi-VHF Band is 24-inches using 1/2-in pipe,
> 
> 23-inches for QuarterInchCopperTubing, 21.5-inches for AWG12 and 21-inches for
> 
> AWG26 (tiny wire taped to window):
> http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/vhfloop
> 
> So Loop Reflector would probably be about 5-percent larger....next on my list...
> 
> 
> Other antenna analyzes can also be found here:
> http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/



Using 4nec2, I "found" quasi-optimum dimensions when adding a Loop Reflector to a Circular Loop,

presuming Half-Inch and Quarter-Inch Copper Tubing (which are already "bent"):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/looprefl 

Half-Inch Copper Tubing (OD=0.514-in, aka "3/8-in I.D.") could cover entire Hi-VHF band with

acceptable SWR (under 2.4), but QuarterInchCopperTubing had trouble covering Ch7 (SWR = 3.3).


Although Gain (6-8 dBi) and SWR were a concern, these designs targeted the

dimensions which would ensure the F/B and F/R Ratios were the "best" they could

be across the entire Hi-VHF Band....i.e. equal at the highest and lowest freqs.


I did not consider smaller diameter elements for the Circular Loop, since it would

make more sense to use a Square Loop design instead (e.g. Quagi):
http://www.k5nrh.org/Downloads/The%2...Turns%2030.pdf


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16781775
> 
> 
> holl_ands,
> 
> 
> Can you prioritize the reflector modelling on the circular design? Any thoughts on what a director would look like?
> 
> 
> Is there a specific size for maximizing RF channel 8 reception?
> 
> 
> What do you think the design for RF 32, RF 23, and RF 47 would be using 10 AWG (solid copper)?
> 
> 
> I would think these would be very easy to box with shielding.



I finished 4nec2 analysis of the Circular Loop plus Loop Reflector:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=16864417 


Of course, different answers would result for a Screen or Rod Reflector(s)....

And adding one or more Rod Directors would turn the Dual Loop into a Quagi:
http://commfaculty.fullerton.edu/woverbeck/quagi.htm


----------



## EscapeVelocity

You Rock!, holl_ands.


----------



## IDRick

Nice work Holl_ands! Can't wait to see the RCA ANT751 data!


Best,


Rick


----------



## flcs3




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16861800
> 
> 
> i checked the cage.... i had seen that page before, a long time ago. that's a very interesting project but unfeasible for an apartment because it's huge.



And one for a VHF antenna will be bigger. OTOH, depending on the source of the multipath or other RFI, a partial shield may be enough to help. It might be feasible on a balcony, if you have one. Unfortunately, you may have to be concerned with multipath coming at your antenna in all three dimensions, not just the plane parallel to the ground.


----------



## flcs3




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16862475
> 
> 
> i have 2 surge protectors here: ...
> 
> my *guess* is that both have EMI filtering (coz it sounds like something that should be standard).



No, that is an extra feature. If you go to a store with a large number of different surge suppressors, you will find that the boxes on some will have specs on their EMI/RFI, i.e. so many dB of suppression over a specified frequency band. Even the brickwall folks have a separate "audio" surge suppressor with RF filtering.


> Quote:
> the PC is connected to the APC one, which also has a 75-Ohm coaxial filter. i tested this filter before and did not notice any improvement, so i decided to connect the antenna straight to the converter box.



That is unlikely to have any useful RFI filtering, though it might help by grounding the coax outer shield. Otherwise, I presume that it is supposed to provide some surge protection for cable modems.


> Quote:
> i think the model i have is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this one . should i get a different one?



What holl_ands said already...


> Quote:
> btw, i'll be using a Winegard HD 7694P indoors (talk about eye-sore...). is *grounding* necessary???



That is a well regarded antenna (and you

probably won't need to install the UHF corner reflectors). It should not need grounding, though grounding the coax outer shield might help by shunting any shield currents induced by undesired RF signals. Probably more useful would be using quad shield coax and/or another method of suppressing shield RF current, perhaps something along these lines:
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/balun.htm 

Of course, we still don't know the source(s) of your interference. How much is your interference reduced with the computer powered off?


I did notice a few weeks ago that the ARRL has a book on dealing with RF interference:
http://www.arrl.org/catalog/9892/ 

I may have to acquire a copy sometime soon. 


So, is your PC case fully enclosed, with all the screws tightened down and all the unused expansion card slots filled with cover plates?


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *flcs3* /forum/post/16866047
> 
> 
> Probably more useful would be using quad shield coax and/or another method of suppressing shield RF current, perhaps something along these lines: http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/balun.htm



i'm getting a quad-shield RG6 for really cheap at Monoprice.




> Quote:
> How much is your interference reduced with the computer powered off?



i performed lots of tests and posted the details in 2 posts here .




> Quote:
> So, is your PC case fully enclosed, with all the screws tightened down and all the unused expansion card slots filled with cover plates?



case closed, screws tightened, all slots covered. the PC is on the floor, with its back facing the spot where i mounted the antenna. there are dozens of cables connected to that PC. that PC also has a wireless Logitech trackball connected to its USB port. i'm sure that i can, by elimination, find out which specific peripheral or internal component is causing this interference.


i might hunt down the source of this interference tonight....


----------



## flcs3




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16866195
> 
> 
> i performed lots of tests and posted the details in 2 posts here .



I believe that most wireless runs in the 2.4GHz range. Another pellet to add to the blunderbuss arsenal might be a low-pass filter, to block frequencies above, say, 700 MHz. For example, the Pico Macom LPF-700 costs on the order of $20-30. You have such an RF-rich environment!


> Quote:
> there are dozens of cables connected to that PC. that PC also has a wireless Logitech trackball connected to its USB port.



Ouch. That's a lot of cables. I don't know what the wireless mice use for comms. I bought a wired USB Logitch trackball for my laptop, since I don't trust all this RF stuff. 


> Quote:
> i might hunt down the source of this interference tonight....



That would be sweet. Good luck.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *flcs3* /forum/post/16866523
> 
> 
> For example, the Pico Macom LPF-700 costs on the order of $20-30.



i'll check it out. thanks! just finished testing the PC. here are the results.


1) with the PC off, i was getting ch-13 at 50%.

2) with PC on signal dropped to ZERO.

3) i unplugged *all* peripheral cables. signal still dropped to ZERO.

4) i unplugged the 2 IDE hard drives. signal still dropped to ZERO.

5) i unplugged the CPU fan and case fan. signal still dropped to ZERO.

6) i removed modem, TV tuner, video card and all memory modules. signal still dropped to ZERO.


at this point i stopped unplugging things.... so the culprit must be:


a) the Asus motherboard.

b) the Athlon XP 3000+ processor.

c) the 500W Antec BP500U PSU.


----------



## JimP




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16866629
> 
> 
> i'll check it out. thanks! just finished testing the PC. here are the results.
> 
> 
> 1) with the PC off, i was getting ch-13 at 50%.
> 
> 2) with PC on signal dropped to ZERO.
> 
> 3) i unplugged *all* peripheral cables. signal still dropped to ZERO.
> 
> 4) i unplugged the 2 IDE hard drives. signal still dropped to ZERO.
> 
> 5) i unplugged the CPU fan and case fan. signal still dropped to ZERO.
> 
> 6) i removed modem, TV tuner, video card and all memory modules. signal still dropped to ZERO.
> 
> 
> at this point i stopped unplugging things.... so the culprit must be:
> 
> 
> a) the Asus motherboard.
> 
> b) the Athlon XP 3000+ processor.
> 
> c) the 500W Antec BP500U PSU.



Does your motherboard have built in wireless? If so, maybe you can disable it in device manager.


----------



## ngarrang

I find myself trying to pick up the last remaining one or two channels in my area. (* http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...aead16a4a4222f *)


Currently, I have 2,5,9,12,14,16,19,43,48 and 64. During good weather at night, I can get 54. 7 is about to install a new antenna, so that will correct itself. My goal, though, is to try and pickup WOTH (virt: 25.1, real: 47). They are a low power station, 15kw.


I am currently using a Terrestrial Digital DB4 mounted on the roof, about 25 feet from ground level.


So as you can see from the tvfool into, I am receiving very well bidirectionally from Dayton and Cinci. The antenna is pointed to Cinci.


I had thought that moving to a DB8 would help me to receive WOTH, but the small directionality of a DB8 has me concerned that in the process, I may lose some or all of my dayton stations from behind.


For others who have such a large disparate angle of bidirectionality, and have tried a DB8, did you lose your other direction?


Alternately, maybe I could try a ChannelMaster 4221 since it has longer bowties than my TE-DB4. That should move the sensitivity of the DB4 down lower.


An A/B switch is not an option I want to pursue at this time.


----------



## hphase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hphase* /forum/post/16700680
> 
> 
> Sorry to potentially hijack this thread, but all those plots made my head spin. I'm not too concerned about gain, but F/B ratio is very important for me, especially on channels 11 and 13.
> 
> 
> What is a believable F/B number to expect for a YA-1713? I'm still tempted to build K6STI's 5-element Yagi, primarily for its F/B ratio. Should I build or buy?
> 
> 
> Thanks!



Well, I tried a brand-new YA-1713 this weekend, and the F/B ratio of that antenna is woefully inadequate to reduce the co-channel interference on channels 11 and 13 in my location. Looks like I'm going to have to build K6STI's Yagi after all. Does anyone have any build tips or pictures of their construction?


I want to receive stations that are about 40 miles away, but I'm getting stronger signals from other, more distant stations about 60 miles away on the same channel(s) almost directly behind me. I tried rotating the antenna slightly to try to drop the co-channel stations into a null, but no dice. If I spin the antenna about 180 degrees (the heading to the other market) I can pick up the stations I _*don't*_ want to watch. With this same orientation I can still pick up _*other*_ VHF stations (off the back side of the antenna) from the market I _*do*_ want to watch, but that don't have co-channel interference.


As you can see, antenna gain is not nearly as important for me as F/B ratio. Time to lower the antenna and find something to block the signal from the stronger, but more distant stations so that I can keep them from interfering with the ones that are closer.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP* /forum/post/16867055
> 
> 
> Does your motherboard have built in wireless? If so, maybe you can disable it in device manager.



no. my desktop PCs have no wireless capability. i have a TabletPC (basically, a laptop) that also causes interference on the Hi-VHF band if placed less than 5 ft away from the antenna. at about 8 ft away, the TabletPC causes no noticeable interference. more details on how i tested the desktop PCs and the TabletPC can be found in these 2 posts (for those intrigued enough).


i really thought the culprit was the hard drives and was surprised when i saw the interference still present after unplugging both of them. i might perform more tests later today. maybe i'll unplug the Asus motherboard from the Antec power supply.... that would be the ultimate test as it could rule out *both* the mobo and the Athlon processor as the source of the interference. the blame would then rest easily on the power supply.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hphase* /forum/post/16867708
> 
> 
> As you can see, antenna gain is not nearly as important for me as F/B ratio. Time to lower the antenna and find something to block the signal from the stronger, but more distant stations so that I can keep them from interfering with the ones that are closer.



Get a second YA1713 and stagger stack it. You'll gain almost 20 db F/B ratio.

http://www.anarc.org/wtfda/stagger.pdf


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hphase* /forum/post/16867708
> 
> 
> I want to receive stations that are about 40 miles away, but I'm getting stronger signals from other, more distant stations about 60 miles away on the same channel(s) almost directly behind me. I tried rotating the antenna slightly to try to drop the co-channel stations into a null, but no dice. If I spin the antenna about 180 degrees (the heading to the other market) I can pick up the stations I _*don't*_ want to watch. With this same orientation I can still pick up _*other*_ VHF stations (off the back side of the antenna) from the market I _*do*_ want to watch, but that don't have co-channel interference.
> 
> 
> As you can see, antenna gain is not nearly as important for me as F/B ratio. ..




A couple of years ago, holl_ands posted something showing how to develop some kind of quarter-wave stack, where you put two antennas on the same mast, pointed at the desired station, you set one 1/4 wavelength behind the other and you cut the two downleads to lengths that *differ by* (edit) 1/4 wavelength, and so the desired signal will be in phase, whereas the undesired signal will be 180 degrees out of phase.


Unfortunately, tuning this rig to channel 12 (207 MHz) might not get you as much rejection as you need, and if it doesn't, you would need to build a 201 MHz and a 213 MHz stack. Fortunately, the parts you would use are not expensive. Each stack would use two commonplace highband VHF antennas that you can probably buy for under $40 each.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> at this point i stopped unplugging things.... so the culprit must be:
> 
> 
> a) the Asus motherboard.
> 
> b) the Athlon XP 3000+ processor.
> 
> c) the 500W Antec BP500U PSU.



Ahh, nforce2 motherboard ? My Abit NF7-S did produce more TV noise than any other mobo Ive used. Good overclocking mobos though.


Also is it a steel case or aluminum ? I find steel cases block RF a bit better.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16869704
> 
> 
> Ahh, nforce2 motherboard ? [...] Also is it a steel case or aluminum ?



VIA chipset. i dont know what the case is made of... :\\


i did the last test.... unplugged the motherboard from the power supply. no lights went on! no noise, no nothing. it looked as if the machine was still off. i guess the power supply was running but there was no component asking for power.


well, with the mobo unplugged, there was no interference. so it could be the mobo or the processor. whatever the case might be, how can i stop the interference from reaching the antenna? maybe i should get a super-duper surge protector.


----------



## hphase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16869797
> 
> 
> i did the last test.... unplugged the motherboard from the power supply. no lights went on! no noise, no nothing. it looked as if the machine was still off. i guess the power supply was running but there was no component asking for power.



Switching power supplies need a minimum load in order to work, but I thought you knew that.


Looks like the answer is the same as the answer you get from the doctor when you say, "Hey Doc, it hurts when I do this."


----------



## hphase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/16869532
> 
> 
> A couple of years ago, holl_ands posted something showing how to develop some kind of quarter-wave stack, where you put two antennas on the same mast, pointed at the desired station, you set one 1/4 wavelength behind the other and you cut the two downleads to lengths that are 1/4 wavelength, and so the desired signal will be in phase, whereas the undesired signal will be 180 degrees out of phase.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, tuning this rig to channel 12 (207 MHz) might not get you as much rejection as you need, and if it doesn't. you would need to build a 201 MHz and a 213 MHz stack. Fortunately, the parts you would use are not expensive. Each stack would use two commonplace highband VHF antennas that you can probably buy for under $40 each.



You're right, I don't know if the stacking would work on both channels 11 and 13 if I cut and tune the rig for channel 12. Someone with better modelling skils than I would have to figure out far down the notch would be + and - 6 MHz.


But if I _did_ do it, could I put my UHF 4221HD in between the stacked V's?


----------



## holl_ands

*STAGGER STACKING* and *HORIZONTAL STACKING* links are found here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=14593948 

PS: I had to fix two outdated links...


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/16869532
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, tuning this rig to channel 12 (207 MHz) might not get you as much rejection as you need, and if it doesn't, you would need to build a 201 MHz and a 213 MHz stack. Fortunately, the parts you would use are not expensive. Each stack would use two commonplace highband VHF antennas that you can probably buy for under $40 each.



I'd design the stagger stack for 12, halfway between 11 and 13. It will still increase F/B by about 13 db on both 11 and 13. That should be enough.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Switching power supplies need a minimum load in order to work, but I thought you knew that.



Yep. He could jumper the green wire to a black wire on the 20 pin plug to make the psu run. A simple paper clip works.

http://www.hardwaremods.com/guides/p...u_jumping.html


----------



## nybbler

Jumpering the wire will make the supply start, but it won't be able to regulate properly and it'll oscillate all over the place. You need to put a dummy load on the supply (used to be the 5V line was what mattered, I don't know if that's still true). An auto headlight works.


----------



## systems2000

How does K6STI design compare to the design that comes out of VK5DJ's design calculator (2.6.0) for DL6WU yagi's?


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16872672
> 
> 
> How does K6STI design compare to the design that comes out of VK5DJ's design calculator (2.6.0) for DL6WU yagi's?



Do you mean YO from K6STI? It's more of a tool to optimize existing commercial designs. While the VK5DJ program just gives you DL6WU yagi dimensions for a certain frequency and boom length.


Ron


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Switching power supplies need a minimum load in order to work, but I thought you knew that.



this crossed my mind but i wasnt sure.



> Quote:
> Yep. He could jumper the green wire to a black wire on the 20 pin plug to make the psu run. A simple paper clip works.



i have a better idea. i'll leave the case's fan plugged and unplug everything else. maybe that fan will create enough load.


still, that wont solve the problem. does anyone have any suggestion on how to suppress the interference that emanates from the PC. by the way, my TC1100 TabletPC also causes interference so i think it's natural to all computers to interfere with nearby antennas....


----------



## The Hound




> Quote:
> i think it's natural to all computers to interfere with nearby antennas....



True, thousands of contacts being made and broken cause interference in the air.

Most boxes have been sheilded now days.

In the comp room at work nothing gets in, FM, cellphone, TV, nothing.

I have run antennas outside the room to get reception.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/16873477
> 
> 
> While the VK5DJ program just gives you DL6WU yagi dimensions for a certain frequency and boom length.



More like frequency and elements, since it has eight directors, a reflector, and the driven (Di-Pole or Loop). Boom length is determined by the frequency. It's ultimate output gives you a 14dBi gain.


It's the one I've been playing with. Is there another that I should look at?


----------



## JimP

Can a wireless bridge also intefere with TV reception?


----------



## systems2000

Does anyone know where I can find information on the Archer 15-1108 UHF/VHF/FM amplifier? All I'm finding is the Radio Shack 15-1108 pre-amplifier.


----------



## hphase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16871661
> 
> 
> I'd design the stagger stack for 12, halfway between 11 and 13. It will still increase F/B by about 13 db on both 11 and 13. That should be enough.



Thanks. I forced myself to do a few calculations to see how much being + or - 6 MHz from the designed frequency would affect the F/B improvement. I came up with similar numbers, but I admit it's just a guess considering the difference between a theoretical null and real-world realizable improvements.


So, other questions arise:


The recomendation for the vertical spacing of stagger-stacked arrays seems to be about 0.5 or 0.6 wavelengths. BUT, the Australian source suggests that if you have a long boom, you should space the antennas by an amount equal to the boom length. This seems to imply that, since a longer boom implies an antenna with more elements, and thus more gain, a higher gain antenna has a larger "capture area." Is this a correct assumption and therefore a good recommendation?


Regardless of the spacings, and hating to "waste" space on the mast, can a UHF antenna be placed between the spaced Hi-VHF antennas without screwing things up completely? (I *am* interested in improving VHF F/B ratio, after all.) With a 4221HD I would primarily be worried about the horizontal elements in the reflector part of the antenna, seeing as they are getting close to the length of the VHF elements.


The stagger stack seems like it might be what I need, but I don't do this sort of stuff often enough to pretend I'm particularly good at it. Comments are welcomed!


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16874941
> 
> 
> Does anyone know where I can find information on the Archer 15-1108 UHF/VHF/FM amplifier? All I'm finding is the Radio Shack 15-1108 pre-amplifier.



Those appear to be the same thing.


I've got one. It's crap compared to my existing pre-amp.


Go to RS's website and enter the model number in the search box, the owner's manual is online.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Can a wireless bridge also intefere with TV reception?



It shouldnt, unless its defective. Wifi is on 2.4 and 5 Ghz bands, well above the TV frequencies.



> Quote:
> does anyone have any suggestion on how to suppress the interference that emanates from the PC.



Increase the distance between the pc and the antenna.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hphase* /forum/post/16875155
> 
> 
> The recomendation for the vertical spacing of stagger-stacked arrays seems to be about 0.5 or 0.6 wavelengths. BUT, the Australian source suggests that if you have a long boom, you should space the antennas by an amount equal to the boom length. This seems to imply that, since a longer boom implies an antenna with more elements, and thus more gain, a higher gain antenna has a larger "capture area." Is this a correct assumption and therefore a good recommendation?



Yes, it's a correct assumption. A pair of 10 element Y1713's should be stacked about a wavelength apart. That's about 4.8' on channel 12. The dimension isn't critical. Anywhere between 4-6 feet should work.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hphase* /forum/post/16875155
> 
> 
> Regardless of the spacings, and hating to "waste" space on the mast, can a UHF antenna be placed between the spaced Hi-VHF antennas without screwing things up completely? With a 4221HD I would primarily be worried about the horizontal elements in the reflector part of the antenna, seeing as they are getting close to the length of the VHF elements.



My gut reaction would be that the UHF antenna is unlikely to ruin the benefit of the stagger stack. The VHF antennas may slightly impair the the F/B UHF antenna, but I doubt that you'd notice it.


----------



## psychoboy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IDRick* /forum/post/16865342
> 
> 
> Nice work Holl_ands! Can't wait to see the RCA ANT751 data!
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> 
> Rick



I too would be interested in this antenna, the ANT751. I currently have one and it is not the "performer" I thought it would be. Let me know if any measurements or pics are needed, before I return it to wallyworld.


----------



## nordloewelabs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *psychoboy* /forum/post/16875804
> 
> 
> I too would be interested in this antenna, the ANT751. I currently have one and it is not the "performer" I thought it would be.



i'm curious too, although i'm not planning to buy it. no website that sells it has specs for it. my guess is that the figures arent impressive and RCA decided it wasnt worth the trouble. this antenna has become some of a legend in the forum, despite the lack of specs.


i'll be eagerly waiting for the analysis. thanks, *holl_ands*!


----------



## systems2000

It's not a pre-amplifier. Mine is 75 Ohm IN/OUT, Variable Gain, and is self-contained with an A/C cord.


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hphase* /forum/post/16875155
> 
> 
> Regardless of the spacings, and hating to "waste" space on the mast, can a UHF antenna be placed between the spaced Hi-VHF antennas without screwing things up completely? (I *am* interested in improving VHF F/B ratio, after all.) With a 4221HD I would primarily be worried about the horizontal elements in the reflector part of the antenna, seeing as they are getting close to the length of the VHF elements.
> 
> 
> The stagger stack seems like it might be what I need, but I don't do this sort of stuff often enough to pretend I'm particularly good at it. Comments are welcomed!




You may want to consider using your 4221 for channels 11 and 13 by adding a screen reflector 36" high by 36 - 40" wide should get you around 20 - 30 db front to back.


I know a 4221 isn't much of a VHF-hi antenna but the old style 4221 with the wider reflector has positive gain on channels 11 - 13 somewhere in the order of 4 - 7dbi and the front to back ratio is above 20db if using 2x4" fencing or smaller.


Computer models show spots in the rear where it approches 30+db rejection.


This would be a simple mod to try, simply cut some wire fencing to size and hose clamp it to the back of the exsisting reflector. It should not negatively affect the UHF in fact it may slightly enhance it.


I have not tried this mod on a 4221hd but the dimensions are very close to the same as the original 4221 so it should work.


Just a suggestion to try if your willing to experiment and have access to the materials needed.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16872672
> 
> 
> How does K6STI design compare to the design that comes out of VK5DJ's design calculator (2.6.0) for DL6WU yagi's?



VK5DJ says his Yagi Calculator is based on DL6WU design equations

(same as the on-line K7MEM calculator):
http://vk5dj.mountgambier.org/Yagi/Yagi.html 

It maximizes Gain for a very long Yagi antenna (over 3 meters at Hi-VHF)

and reportedly is optimized for 50-ohm vice 75-ohm.


I ran the same design frequency (190 MHz) for an 8-Element Yagi as in K7MEM.

All of the dimensions came up the same (within a couple mm), EXCEPT the Driven

Element length was 760 mm per K7MEM (presumably NOT a Folded Dipole) and

per VK6DJ it was either 760 mm for a Folded Dipole or 745 mm if NOT....hmmmm....

The VK6DJ Yagi Calculator also has some useful utilities, such as a Balun calculator,

but yields results roughly the same as the on-line K7MEM calculator.


Yagi 4nec2 runs can be found here: http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis 


A 2-percent difference in Driven Element length only caused small differences in Net Gain

and Front/Back Ratio, see attached. Like most Yagi designs that maximize Gain on

a single frequency, DL6WU derived designs only perform well on 1 to 3 adjacent channels.

Whereas the lower gain 5-Element K6STI Yagi is optimized for the entire Hi-VHF band.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16874914
> 
> 
> More like frequency and elements, since it has eight directors, a reflector, and the driven (Di-Pole or Loop). Boom length is determined by the frequency. It's ultimate output gives you a 14dBi gain.
> 
> 
> It's the one I've been playing with. Is there another that I should look at?



The DL6WU taper is an excellent design. Here's some additional information.

http://www.cebik.com/content/a10/vhf/wu.html 


You have to register, but it's free.


In general, yagi designs can be optimized for forward gain, bandwidth or front to back ratio. But not all three parameters at the same time. It's sounds like you need maximum gain, so the DL6WU fits your application pretty well.


Ron


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nordloewelabs* /forum/post/16875893
> 
> 
> i'm curious too, although i'm not planning to buy it. no website that sells it has specs for it. my guess is that the figures arent impressive and RCA decided it wasnt worth the trouble. this antenna has become some of a legend in the forum, despite the lack of specs.
> 
> 
> i'll be eagerly waiting for the analysis. thanks, *holl_ands*!



Legendary might be a stretch for this antenna...







But, there is interest since it is a new design. I have firsthand experience and have compared it to mclapp's DIY 4-bay. The DIY has 6 to 7 dB higher margin to dropout than the EZ HD (same thing as ANT751). Presumably, that means that the DIY antenna has 6 to 7 dB higher gain. Mclapp's modeling efforts project UHF gains for the DIY 4-bay at ~12dBd, UHF scale. I'm interested in seeing how well my testing compares to the models for both antennas.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IDRick* /forum/post/16877139
> 
> 
> Legendary might be a stretch for this antenna...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But, there is interest since it is a new design. I have firsthand experience and have compared it to mclapp's DIY 4-bay. The DIY has 6 to 7 dB higher margin to dropout than the EZ HD (same thing as ANT751). Presumably, that means that the DIY antenna has 6 to 7 dB higher gain. Mclapp's modeling efforts project UHF gains for the DIY 4-bay at ~12dBd, UHF scale. I'm interested in seeing how well my testing compares to the models for both antennas.



Is this for UHF or Hi-VHF??? (I would guess only for UHF.)


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16877239
> 
> 
> Is this for UHF or Hi-VHF??? (I would guess only for UHF.)



The 6 to 7 dB improvement was for UHF.


----------



## hphase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mclapp* /forum/post/16876352
> 
> 
> You may want to consider using your 4221 for channels 11 and 13 by adding a screen reflector 36" high by 36 - 40" wide should get you around 20 - 30 db front to back.
> 
> 
> I know a 4221 isn't much of a VHF-hi antenna but the old style 4221 with the wider reflector has positive gain on channels 11 - 13 somewhere in the order of 4 - 7dbi and the front to back ratio is above 20db if using 2x4" fencing or smaller.
> 
> 
> Computer models show spots in the rear where it approches 30+db rejection.
> 
> 
> This would be a simple mod to try, simply cut some wire fencing to size and hose clamp it to the back of the exsisting reflector. It should not negatively affect the UHF in fact it may slightly enhance it.
> 
> 
> I have not tried this mod on a 4221hd but the dimensions are very close to the same as the original 4221 so it should work.
> 
> 
> Just a suggestion to try if your willing to experiment and have access to the materials needed.



I thought that the part of the 4221 antenna that allowed reception of VHF _*was*_ the reflector screen. I can see how a larger screen might help F/B at UHF frequencies, but how does that translate to F/B ratio at VHF frequencies?


Of course, it's easy enough to just try it to see if it works. I guess I'm looking for a bit of the "why." Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## dbdoc

According to the pix in the 2006 R Sh catalogue, there are two pieces to this. You have the indoor part. There is the part that mounts at the antenna and looks like it has a short 300 ohm input lead with coax connector for the output. The info says: typical VHF gain of 25db and UHF gain of 20db with 10db adjustment range, switchable FM trap and short-circuit protection.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dbdoc* /forum/post/16880023
> 
> 
> According to the pix in the 2006 R Sh catalogue, there are two pieces to this. You have the indoor part. There is the part that mounts at the antenna and looks like it has a short 300 ohm input lead with coax connector for the output. The info says: typical VHF gain of 25db and UHF gain of 20db with 10db adjustment range, switchable FM trap and short-circuit protection.



The oudoor part, which looks like a balun molded over with vinyl is, in fact, a preamplifier.


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hphase* /forum/post/16879920
> 
> 
> I thought that the part of the 4221 antenna that allowed reception of VHF _*was*_ the reflector screen. I can see how a larger screen might help F/B at UHF frequencies, but how does that translate to F/B ratio at VHF frequencies?



No, the reflector actually hurts some VHF-HI channels, the stock reflector is just the right size to be a director on the lower channels and totally screw up the impedance match. The larger screen will actually perform as a reflector on VHF-hi. Here is a test I ran on a old style 4221 along with a VU90 and some homemade antennas. I don't know if the new 4221hd will perform exactly the same but it should be close.









I did test the front to back on the large screen and it was pretty good but I didn't actually plot it so all I have to go by is the computer models I ran.


> Quote:
> Of course, it's easy enough to just try it to see if it works. I guess I'm looking for a bit of the "why." Thanks for the suggestion.



Give it a shot


----------



## ProjectSHO89

FWIW, while the 15-1108 is a lousy pre-amp, the indoor section (without the mast-mounted module) makes a decent (enough) booster for use as a distribution amp.


----------



## EscapeVelocity




> Quote:
> Legendary might be a stretch for this antenna...



LOL! Really.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IDRick* /forum/post/16877289
> 
> 
> The 6 to 7 dB improvement was for UHF.



If you go with the UHF specs for the Winegard 7000R those would be right in line with RCA ANT751 UHF gain +6 to 7db = 11dbd to 13dbd.


----------



## holl_ands

Huh???

Although the Rear VHF part of the HD7000R is 3 times wider to cover Lo-VHF, the front, UHF part

looks the same as EZHD and RCA ANT-751.


HD7000R UHF Gain specs are 3.6 dBd (5.8 dBi) on Ch14, rising to 5.1 and 6.0 dBd (7.3-8.2 dBi).


mclapp's Super-Sized 4-Bay is 6 to 7 dB higher (11-13 dBd or 13-15 dBi) on UHF.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

5 to 6dbd + 6 to 7 db = 11 to 13 db in my book. Or maybe Im missing some nuance.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16881148
> 
> 
> FWIW, while the 15-1108 is a lousy pre-amp, the indoor section (without the mast-mounted module) makes a decent (enough) booster for use as a distribution amp.



In that application, you should make sure the voltage is blocked so it doesn't short and suck down the power supply.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Could I be overloading my TV? According to TVfool, my High VHF signals are 18.5, 16.6, 15.5 and 12.7 NM(dB). My UHF signals start at 7.0 dB down to 1.7 dB.



Not unless that CM7777 is defective. Looks like the biggest problem you have is most channels are 1 edge. So I would either try to raise the antenna, or aim for the tops of the hills.


----------



## systems2000

This is the only part that I've ever seen. I'll check the antenna side for voltage.


----------



## axolotls

First off, thanks for everyone's suggestion on my OTA.


I chose the 7697 as suggested by arxaw and others.


I opted for the chimney mount.


I have two VHF channels and one came in at 100%, the other 70%.


The UHF channels are located on the same tower as the VHF's but come in between 10% and 70% with an average of 40%.


I am splitting it (one active) and the RG6 length is a whopping 140' (100' feet before the split into separate 40's)


So, I am losing about 12db.


All my reception is coming from 35 miles away, one edge, with about three hills in the way.


Will a pre-amplifier mitigate the signal loss -and- boost the signal?

If yes, should I just get a UHF only booster since the VHF comes in fairly well?

Are there any other options. Maybe one to counteract the cable length and splitter and another to pull in those UHF channels a little better (especially that 10% one).


TIA


Ax


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *axolotls* /forum/post/16889180
> 
> 
> First off, thanks for everyone's suggestion on my OTA.
> 
> 
> I chose the 7697 as suggested by arxaw and others.
> 
> 
> I opted for the chimney mount.
> 
> 
> I have two VHF channels and one came in at 100%, the other 70%.
> 
> 
> The UHF channels are located on the same tower as the VHF's but come in between 10% and 70% with an average of 40%.
> 
> 
> I am splitting it (one active) and the RG6 length is a whopping 140' (100' feet before the split into separate 40's)
> 
> 
> So, I am losing about 12db.
> 
> 
> All my reception is coming from 35 miles away, one edge, with about three hills in the way.
> 
> 
> Will a pre-amplifier mitigate the signal loss -and- boost the signal?
> 
> If yes, should I just get a UHF only booster since the VHF comes in fairly well?
> 
> Are there any other options. Maybe one to counteract the cable length and splitter and another to pull in those UHF channels a little better (especially that 10% one).
> 
> 
> TIA
> 
> 
> Ax



You need a pre-amp. Might as well get a U/V one with 15-20 dB gain and low noise. You are not at risk of over-amplifying the V signals so there's no need to get it more complicated.


----------



## JimP

Which brings up a question. About how much signal loss is there using quad cable for every 25' (or whatever unit)? Axolotis has 140 ft plus his splitter. Most splitters will tell you what the loss is. How about the cable?


----------



## 300ohm

My RG6 quad cable has a loss of 1 db every 18 ft, the same as typical RG6. Some other quad cable has slightly more loss, like 1 db every 20 - 21 ft.


The better splitters will tell you the loss, the cheapy ones wont and are lossier.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

About 1db at VHF frequencies and 6db for upper UHF frequencies and about 3db for lower UHF frequencies per 100ft of RG6. Higher losses for RG59. Higher losses for lower quality cable.


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP* /forum/post/16889924
> 
> 
> Which brings up a question. About how much signal loss is there using quad cable for every 25' (or whatever unit)? Axolotis has 140 ft plus his splitter. Most splitters will tell you what the loss is. How about the cable?



Below is data from the Beldon catalog for several of their cable types. Note that attenuation is cable type and frequency dependent.


1152 CATV Cable & 1189AP Broadband CATV Coax

Freq (MHz)Max Attn (dB/100 ft)

1.3

10.66

501.6

1002.2

2003.0

4004.6

7006.6

9007.7

10008.2

1189A Broadband CATV Coax Cable & 1190 CATV COAX

Freq (MHz)Max Attn (dB/100 ft)

5.67

551.60

2112.87

2703.24

3003.43

3503.72

4004.00

4504.26

5504.71

7505.59

8706.00

10006.54


----------



## EscapeVelocity

I was pretty close.


----------



## hphase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mclapp* /forum/post/16881127
> 
> 
> No, the reflector actually hurts some VHF-HI channels, the stock reflector is just the right size to be a director on the lower channels and totally screw up the impedance match. The larger screen will actually perform as a reflector on VHF-hi. Here is a test I ran on a old style 4221 along with a VU90 and some homemade antennas. I don't know if the new 4221hd will perform exactly the same but it should be close.
> 
> I did test the front to back on the large screen and it was pretty good but I didn't actually plot it so all I have to go by is the computer models I ran.
> 
> 
> Give it a shot



Well, I tried, and nothing really changed. I _did_ note that it seems that the 4221 is pretty much omnidirectional at channel 8. That was the only channel I could pick up on the 4221 in any configuration. I don't have any other test equipment, so I can only use sucessful reception as a go-no go test. The "signal strength" meter can't tell the two co-channel interferers apart.


Granted, channel 8 is about 20 miles away, while any other VHF channels are either 40 or 60 miles away, but I was still surprised how easily the 4221 picked up the channel signal at almost any antenna heading.


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *EscapeVelocity* /forum/post/16890699
> 
> 
> I was pretty close.



Yup, EV I agree - your numbers were pretty good for the problem at hand. I guess the take away is a 4 way splitter introduces a lot of loss. As EV points out and the numbers in the table indicate cable losses for 140 foot cable are around:


VHF ~1.4dB

Lo UHF ~4.2 dB

Hi UHF ~8.4 dB


Inserting the splitter in there pushes total losses to ~13.4 dB, ~16 dB, and ~20 dB

Cheers


----------



## holl_ands

RG-6 Cable Loss (and construction) varies quite a bit, even from a single manufacturer:
http://www.generalcable.com/NR/rdonl...oaxCblRG6U.pdf 
http://www.belden.com/pdfs/03Belden_...s/06.34_39.pdf


----------



## axolotls




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Satcom15* /forum/post/16891023
> 
> 
> Yup, EV I agree - your numbers were pretty good for the problem at hand. I guess the take away is a 4 way splitter introduces a lot of loss. As EV points out and the numbers in the table indicate cable losses for 140 foot cable are around:
> 
> 
> VHF ~1.4dB
> 
> Lo UHF ~4.2 dB
> 
> Hi UHF ~8.4 dB
> 
> 
> Inserting the splitter in there pushes total losses to ~13.4 dB, ~16 dB, and ~20 dB
> 
> Cheers



Thanks everyone! It's the High UHF channels that are coming in marginal and that helps explains it!


I am so friggin' happy with my OTA channels now. And I scouted my entire neighborhood and I am the only one out of 1,000+ residences that has it.


----------



## mclapp




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hphase* /forum/post/16890725
> 
> 
> Well, I tried, and nothing really changed. I _did_ note that it seems that the 4221 is pretty much omnidirectional at channel 8. That was the only channel I could pick up on the 4221 in any configuration. I don't have any other test equipment, so I can only use sucessful reception as a go-no go test. The "signal strength" meter can't tell the two co-channel interferers apart.
> 
> 
> Granted, channel 8 is about 20 miles away, while any other VHF channels are either 40 or 60 miles away, but I was still surprised how easily the 4221 picked up the channel signal at almost any antenna heading.



That's too bad, I wish I had a new 4221 to test with, I was doing some field testing this weekend with a home made 4 bay with a 36" wide reflector and checked the front to back ratio. It was getting all of 20db front to back on VHF-hi the channels were 7,8 and 11. 7 and 8 are very strong and I maintained a lock no matter which way I pointed but the spectrum analyzer showed 20+ db reduction when pointed away from the stations. The ch11 station is over 70 mi. away so I couldn't get a front to back reading because it would drop out totally if I moved the antenna away a few degrees.


I want to test the old style 4221 in the field next to compare it to the home made version, I'll be sure to stick a large reflector on it as part of the test. I also have a ch11 yagi I'm going to test I'll try to get some field measurments on that as well.


I know that the new style 4221 has some differences even though the whisker elements are the same as the old style, there may be something in the new one that doesn't allow it to work the same.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Thanks everyone! It's the High UHF channels that are coming in marginal and that helps explains it!
> 
> 
> I am so friggin' happy with my OTA channels now. And I scouted my entire neighborhood and I am the only one out of 1,000+ residences that has it.



Yep, youre losing a lot of signal and a low noise, quality preamp will do you wonders. If you think youre so friggin' happy now, just wait until you get the good preamp !


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16891718
> 
> 
> RG-6 Cable Loss (and construction) varies quite a bit, even from a single manufacturer:
> http://www.generalcable.com/NR/rdonl...oaxCblRG6U.pdf
> http://www.belden.com/pdfs/03Belden_...s/06.34_39.pdf



holl_ands

That's pretty interesting, didn't realize there was so much variability. Just for grins I went out to the Andrew (now Commscope) to look at the RF coax cables I used to work with. Of course these cables are well beyond what your typical home TV viewer would use (don't think too many people would run and LDF12-50 2-1/4 inch diameter cable with N-Type connectors into their house







). I was curious to see how they compare with the puny RG-6 cable we use.










Lo and behold, I see they have stopped making my favorite cable: LDF5-50! Now they have an aluminum outer conductor cable that supposedly is "better". Yeah, sure. They still make a copper outer conductor cable - but I'm sure its more expensive. And I see they have reduced the number of cable options. Bummer. Anyway, here are the results for several cable types at several frequencies that correspond roughly to VHF/UHF frequencies: 50 MHz (Lo VHF), 200 MHz (hi VHF), 500 MHz (Lo UHF), 800 MHz (Hi UHF), 1000 MHz (Just for Grins). The attenuation values are in dB/100 ft. Also included is the average power rating (in kW) for each frequency. So for example, AVA 5-50 at 800 MHz has an attenuation of 1.014 dB/100 ft, quite a bit less than the 6-8 dB/100ft we'd expect on RG-6, and can handle 2.53 kW of RF power.


BTW that LDF12-50 cable is pretty tough to work with, especially in cold (and I mean real cold as in -30 degree F installation temperature cold). LDF5-50 is manageable, but still not easy. Bend radius is more like 3 feet in those temps.







Anyway, here are the numbers. Enjoy.


LDF4-50 (1/2 in diam)

50 0.463 5.02

200 0.946 2.46

500 1.53 1.52

800 1.968 1.18

1000 2.220 1.05


AL 5-50 (7/8 in diam - Aluminum outer conductor)

50 0.264 8.95

200 0.538 4.39

500 0.871 2.71

800 1.120 2.11

1000 1.264 1.87


AVA 5-50 (7/8 in diam - Copper outer conductor)

50 0.237 10.81

200 0.485 5.28

500 0.787 3.25

800 1.014 2.53

1000 1.145 2.24


AVA 7-50 (1 5/8 in diam)

50 0.137 16.14

200 0.284 7.81

500 0.465 4.76

800 0.604 3.66

1000 0.685 3.23


LDF 12-50 (2 1/4 in diam)

50 0.119 30.64

200 0.253 14.45

500 0.426 8.58

800 0.562 6.49

1000 0.644 5.67


----------



## 300ohm

Too bad you couldnt get it up to 2.4 GHz. Larger though, seems to be better. Thats the pattern.


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16893443
> 
> 
> Too bad you couldnt get it up to 2.4 GHz. Larger though, seems to be better. Thats the pattern.



Yup, bigger IS better. And as for 2.4 GHz, ask and you shall receive. Here are some values for 2.5 GHz from the Andrew site for their more common cables:


1/4 in diam - 6.914 dB/100 ft

1/2 in diam - 3.685 dB/100 ft

7/8 in diam - 1.911 dB/100 ft

1-5/8 in diam - 1.169 dB/100 ft


Nothing for 2-1/4 in diam, but its probably around 1 dB/100 ft. I used a lot of the 7/8 in diam cable for L-/S-Band satellite communications (1680/2027 MHz) so know its properties pretty well.

Cheers.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Satcom15* /forum/post/16893487
> 
> 
> Nothing for 2-1/4 in diam, but its probably around 1 dB/100 ft.



2 1/4" cable doesn't work right at 2.4 GHz. It looks more like waveguide than coax at that frequency.


----------



## holl_ands

Aluminum has historically been a lot less expensive than copper, and had

a cost growth curve that was much less severe than copper, so should be

no surprise to see more use of aluminum.....just not in my house wiring:
http://www.indexmundi.com/commoditie...inum&months=60 
http://www.indexmundi.com/commoditie...pper&months=60 


PS: I especially liked LDF5-50 because the flexible, solid shield didn't leak like normal coax,

so interconnecting cables weren't a leakage path between transmitters & receivers under test.


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16898179
> 
> 
> PS: I especially liked LDF5-50 because the flexible, solid shield didn't leak like normal coax,
> 
> so interconnecting cables weren't a leakage path between transmitters & receivers under test.



Me too. I see that they have also gone to "cheaper" connectors too. But supposedly they are "better". Yeah, right. Worked with Andrew LDF5-50 cable and N-Type connectors for years. Used it on HF through satcom systems. Sorry to see it "improved". Guess its all about the bottom line - forget quality.


----------



## axolotls




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16892891
> 
> 
> Yep, youre losing a lot of signal and a low noise, quality preamp will do you wonders. If you think youre so friggin' happy now, just wait until you get the good preamp !



I just read in the Local OTA threads that all the UHF channels I am getting are on temporary antennas and that they are going to raise them 500' by October.


The VHF one that comes in at 100% is the first antenna they raised, which is probably the reason why the signal comes in perfectly.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Aluminum has historically been a lot less expensive than copper



For metal prices, I like this site : http://www.metalprices.com/


----------



## quarter29

Thank you for your inquiry!


There is no way to save all channels when you are repositioning the

antenna.


Thank you for your interest in Panasonic products.


Thank You,

Panasonic Consumer Support


Above is the reply to my question about why the Panasonic TCP50X1 Plasma TV will not save previous channel scans. I can receive stations from 4 different directions with a rotor, but this tv is useless to me. But the cheap Digital Stream DTV Converter Box for my older tv saves previous scans! Is there a way to save scans with the Panasonic TCP50X1? Is there a list of TVs that save previous scans?


----------



## L David Matheny




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *quarter29* /forum/post/16900751
> 
> 
> I can receive stations from 4 different directions with a rotor, but this tv is useless to me. But the cheap Digital Stream DTV Converter Box for my older tv saves previous scans! Is there a way to save scans with the Panasonic TCP50X1? Is there a list of TVs that save previous scans?



What does your Panasonic TCP50X1 do if you enter the actual RF channel number (not the PSIP channel) of a new channel (one that it hasn't already scanned)? This will cause many TVs to add the channel to the channel list. If yours does that, then you could scan in the direction with the most channels, then aim the antenna in other directions and manually add the channels found there. It's tedious, but it will work with some TVs.


----------



## MTVhike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *L David Matheny* /forum/post/16900932
> 
> 
> What does your Panasonic TCP50X1 do if you enter the actual RF channel number (not the PSIP channel) of a new channel (one that it hasn't already scanned)? This will cause many TVs to add the channel to the channel list. If yours does that, then you could scan in the direction with the most channels, then aim the antenna in other directions and manually add the channels found there. It's tedious, but it will work with some TVs.



This also works for me with my Samsung 52" LCD (not sure the model number). However, if the RF channel number of the desired station is the same as the PSIP number of another station, the second station will be selected and I have found no way to get the first station.


Mike


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MTVhike* /forum/post/16901694
> 
> 
> This also works for me with my Samsung 52" LCD (not sure the model number). However, if the RF channel number of the desired station is the same as the PSIP number of another station, the second station will be selected and I have found no way to get the first station.
> 
> 
> Mike



just a guess, don't have that set.


delete the virtual channel number. enter the other channel with its real channel number. enter the real channel number of the one you deleted. only enter real channel numbers and do the real entries before that number becomes a virtual entry.


----------



## systems2000

I've noticed DTV's don't seem to have the features of CECB's (ie. EPG (at least a NOW/NEXT), additional channel scan, Program description, etc.). This seems crazy to me, considering how much they are charging for flat panels.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Yep. Vizio however has the goods that the "Expensive Brand Names" should.....like EPG guide and information.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16903661
> 
> 
> I've noticed DTV's don't seem to have the features of CECB's (ie. EPG (at least a NOW/NEXT), additional channel scan, Program description, etc.). This seems crazy to me, considering how much they are charging for flat panels.



A lot of those features were mandated for the CB to be eligible for the NTIA coupon program.


----------



## hphase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16904275
> 
> 
> A lot of those features were mandated for the CB to be eligible for the NTIA coupon program.



Not really. The NTIA says that the boxes have to meet the usual standards, but cannot have "bells and whistles" that would keep them from qualifying for the coupon.


As far as I can tell, the requirements that allow program guide info (PSIP) are no different than the requirements for any other DTV tuner. Whether (and how) the maker decides to show this info is up to them. My TV shows the channel (duh...), what's on, and the parental rating.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hphase* /forum/post/16906707
> 
> 
> The NTIA says that the boxes have to meet the usual standards, but cannot have "bells and whistles" that would keep them from qualifying for the coupon.



ELIGIBLE CONVERTER BOXES SHALL COMPLY WITH THE FOLLOWING MINIMUM PERFORMANCE SPECIFICATIONS AND FEATURES:


3. PSIP Processing

Equipment shall process and display ATSC A/65C Program and System Information Protocol (PSIP) data to provide the user with tuned

channel and program information. See ATSC A/69 for further guidance.


HDTVs do not have to comply with this requirement.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hphase* /forum/post/16906707
> 
> 
> Not really. The NTIA says that the boxes have to meet the usual standards, but cannot have "bells and whistles" that would keep them from qualifying for the coupon.
> 
> 
> As far as I can tell, the requirements that allow program guide info (PSIP) are no different than the requirements for any other DTV tuner. Whether (and how) the maker decides to show this info is up to them. My TV shows the channel (duh...), what's on, and the parental rating.



It helps if you refer to the list of required, permitted, and disqualifying features before commenting...


See http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/dtvmanufacturers.pdf for a simplified version.


Formal specifications were issued as part of the Final Ruling and are available here: http://www.ntia.doc.gov/frnotices/20...ule_031207.pdf


----------



## hayj

I was hoping I could get some advice on the next antenna I buy. It may help to give a little background. I recently switched to ota and checked antennaweb as to my local broadcasts. Here's the situation, the last numbers being angle, distance, and rf station.


WDRB-DT 41.1 FOX LOUISVILLE, KY 308° 14.8 49

WHAS-DT 11.1 ABC LOUISVILLE, KY 309° 15.0 11

WAVE-DT 3.1 NBC LOUISVILLE, KY 314° 14.8 47

WBNA-DT 21.1 ION LOUISVILLE, KY 212° 15.6 8

WMYO-DT 58.1 MNT SALEM, IN 308° 14.8 51

WKPC-DT 15.1 PBS LOUISVILLE, KY 313° 14.8 17

WKMJ-DT 38.1 PBS LEXINGTON, KY 313° 14.8 38

WJYL-CA 45 TBN CLARKSVILLE, IN 314° 14.8 45

WLKY-DT 32.1 CBS LOUISVILLE, KY 314° 14.8 26

WBKI-CA 28 CW CAMPBELLSVILLE, KY 309° 15.2 28

WBKI-LD 34.1 CW CAMPBELLSVILLE, KY 309° 15.2 34


It turns out the WKBKI HD station on 34 isn't at this location, but 50 miles away at 169 degrees on RF 19. I bought a Terk HDTVo, based on 34 broadcasting in Louisville. However, pointing it at 169 degrees I can get WBKI in but the Louisville stations suffer too much for my liking. I have bought a cm4228 for WBKI and planned to use the Terk for the Louisville stations, but I have noticed the Terk has been dropping out in the mornings every 5-10 minutes so I think I will return it. I was guessing multipath? This is a suburban areas with a lot of large trees as well. I plan to mount on the eaves, on opposite sides of the house. The cm4228 shows a signal strength of 65% on the roof and a signal quality to be 75%. (I took this to be Signal to Noise Ratio) The minimum values according to SiliconDust is 50%. So I think with a preamp I will be good for WBKI. So my question is what antenna should I replace the Terk with for the Louisville stations? I was thinking the Winegard 7695P. Also, what would be a good preamp for the 4228? I have a Jointenna for channel RF 19 for the WBKI station on digital 34. Does this sound like a reasonable approach before I make any more purchases? Thanks.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hayj* /forum/post/16911827
> 
> 
> Does this sound like a reasonable approach before I make any more purchases? Thanks.



It does to me.


You'll miss ION on channel 8 if that matters to you.


----------



## hphase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16908081
> 
> 
> It helps if you refer to the list of required, permitted, and disqualifying features before commenting...
> 
> 
> See http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/dtvmanufacturers.pdf for a simplified version.
> 
> 
> Formal specifications were issued as part of the Final Ruling and are available here: http://www.ntia.doc.gov/frnotices/20...ule_031207.pdf



Well, excuuuuuuse me! It also helps if you don't assume what I did or didn't refer to before I commented.


Simplified versions do not necessarily have the force of law. The simplified version was quoted earlier, and it agrees with the actual rules and regulations. However, while it may appear clear, the rules do NOT specify, precisely, which PSIP parameters must be displayed. Manufacturers are free to decide for themselves what information their customers will want, subject to clear FCC regulations, just as the situation is for "regular" TVs.


The NTIA requires that converters boxes "receive, decode and display information contained in the PSIP broadcast pursuant to the A/65 standard." But which information? A/65 defines what must be put into the PSIP tables that are transmitted (and there are a LOT of them!) but it does not say which ones should be displayed.


From the Rules and Regulations, "Further, NTIA will permit, but not require, a CECB to display other electronic program information." Which are required and which are permitted? Tuned channel is specifically mentioned and makes sense, parental control information is required by the FCC, but how much of the program information should be displayed. Current? Current and next? Channel name? The rules don't really say which.


PSIP decoding and processing is required in all TVs, not just CECBs. I do not believe that it is accurate to say that the features mentioned in the post that started this particular discussion were "mandated" by the NTIA in order to be "coupon eligible."


----------



## jtbell

At 15 miles, you shouldn't need a 4228 and a pre-amp, unless you're behind a big hill or something. Something smaller like a 4221 or 4220 should work fine for UHF.


Instead of Antennaweb, try tvfool.com, it gives more detailed info. Use the "Maps" option, enter your address, and then adjust your location if necessary by dragging the marker on the map. If you have hills nearby, small changes in position can make a big difference in signal.


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/16913303
> 
> 
> At 15 miles, you shouldn't need a 4228 and a pre-amp, unless you're behind a big hill or something. Something smaller like a 4221 or 4220 should work fine for UHF.
> 
> 
> Instead of Antennaweb, try tvfool.com, it gives more detailed info. Use the "Maps" option, enter your address, and then adjust your location if necessary by dragging the marker on the map. If you have hills nearby, small changes in position can make a big difference in signal.



Yeah, after the WBKI confusion, I'm using TVfool. The 4228 would be for WBKI at 50 miles to the south. It would be only for that station. Then combined with my stations at 15 miles through a Jointenna. I was thinking the 7695P for the ones at 15 miles.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16912653
> 
> 
> It does to me.
> 
> 
> You'll miss ION on channel 8 if that matters to you.



Is there any hope of the 7695P getting in Ion even pointed at 310 degrees? The Terk gets it in now reasonably well and drop outs aren't as big of an issue for this station. I thought the Terk was highly directional but I can't find the stats so I don't know what it's acceptance angle is and at what gain. Anyone have a situation like this? Three antennas won't fly. I'm pushing it with my wife with two antennas.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hayj* /forum/post/16913752
> 
> 
> Is there any hope of the 7695P getting in Ion even pointed at 310 degrees?



Maybe. There's probably enough signal. It depends on multipath.-


----------



## Colm

Two of my local stations went to VHF for DTV. So, I needed to install a VHF antenna. I took down my mast to add an AntennaCraft Y10-7-13 stacked below my existing ChannelMaster UHF yagi. I decided to check out the rotator before putting everything back up. The rotator didn't turn. I don't know how long it has been like this. The transmitters for all the stations I have been watching are within a mile and a degree or so each other. When I installed the original UHF antenna I adjusted for peak performance and left it. That was years ago when the first local stations started broadcasting DTV in addition to analog.


I removed the works from the housing. There was no obvious problem. All the gears were intact, the motor buzzed when energized, but it didn't move. I removed the motor and found that it was the culprit. The rotor would not turn by hand. I applied a judicious amount or torque to the tiny gear on the end of the rotor with a pair of pliers and it started to moved. After moving it back and forth several times, it was moving freely. It appears that if the motor is not used for a while, the rotor can seize up. This is not entirely unexpected with moving devices.


Moral here is to use it regularly if you want it to keep working. And if it does seize up, it may be fixable.


----------



## hphase




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/16916914
> 
> 
> Moral here is to use it regularly if you want it to keep working. And if it does seize up, it may be fixable.



Good advice, and not just for antennas!


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/16916914
> 
> 
> Moral here is to use it regularly if you want it to keep working. And if it does seize up, it may be fixable.



The problem is that grease dries out over time. The more volatile hydrocarbons evaporate leaving just thick gunk. The long term solution is to clean the old grease with a solvent and replace it with a grease or oil that does not decompose. Silicone grease is one such compound. There may be others.


----------



## hayj

I was wondering if it would be possible to avoid buying a second antenna for my closer stations, point the 4228 at WBKI (RF 19) and use a preamp with a lot of gain and low noise, say this one (AP8275):

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=SAP8275 


I know its a lot of gain, but since WBKI is at 50 miles and the 4228 is fairly directional I was thinking the stations at 15 miles wouldn't saturate. Would multipath kill me? Anyone have an opinion? I attached an image of my broadcasts.


----------



## kedirekin

Try pointing the 4228 at WBKI and see if you still get your local channels. They're close enough there's a good chance you will.


If you find WBKI is almost there, or there but not 100% reliable, a pre-amp may be in order, but you definitely don't want a high gain amp - not with such strong signals close by. One of the harder lessons to learn with pre-amps (because you have to un-learn conventional wisdom) is that it's not so much about making the signal as strong as possible, but more about preserving the signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) right at the antenna, where SNR is at its best. You only want to amplify it enough to make up for down-stream cable losses and such, plus a little bit. Too often, excessive gain just creates problems.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hayj* /forum/post/16921285
> 
> 
> I was wondering if it would be possible to avoid buying a second antenna for my closer stations, point the 4228 at WBKI (RF 19) and use a preamp with a lot of gain and low noise, say this one (AP8275):
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=SAP8275
> 
> 
> I know its a lot of gain, but since WBKI is at 50 miles and the 4228 is fairly directional I was thinking the stations at 15 miles wouldn't saturate. Would multipath kill me? Anyone have an opinion? I attached an image of my broadcasts.



It's possible that you'd get nothing with that configuration. If you get anything, expect dropouts. My 4228 and HDP-269 preamp overloads. I'm 9 miles from the Albany antenna farm.


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kedirekin* /forum/post/16922237
> 
> 
> Try pointing the 4228 at WBKI and see if you still get your local channels. They're close enough there's a good chance you will.
> 
> 
> If you find WBKI is almost there, or there but not 100% reliable, a pre-amp may be in order, but you definitely don't want a high gain amp - not with such strong signals close by. One of the harder lessons to learn with pre-amps (because you have to un-learn conventional wisdom) is that it's not so much about making the signal as strong as possible, but more about preserving the signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) right at the antenna, where SNR is at its best. You only want to amplify it enough to make up for down-stream cable losses and such, plus a little bit. Too often, excessive gain just creates problems.



Thanks for the advice. I agree, StoN is the important value. I probably should have mentioned that I've had the 4228 on the roof and looked at the signal strength and signal quality (which I took as StoN) on my HDhomerun. The signal strength was 65% and the signal quality was 75%, this being after my cable run, so I expect the StoN to be slightly higher at the antenna. Silicon Dust quotes a minimum signal strength of 50% and recommends a strength of 75% and a minimum signal quality of 50%. So I think I have enough StoN to amplify the signal and bring the strength up into a more suitable range so, in the event of a drop, I don't lose it in the noise. I guess I was a little zealous with my gain levels as it sounds like others are as well. I just found the translations from percentages for the HDhomerun. From their forum


"_A 3dB change in signal level will result in a 5% change in reported signal level.


100% is approximately 0dBmV or approximately -49dBm.


The rev2 can handle 40dB higher than 100%._"


As far as StoN, I could only find that 90% is 29dB


"_snq=90(29dB)_"


But that doesn't speak to the saturation on the preamp. When I mount it, I'll let you know what I find after watching it a bit.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16922346
> 
> 
> It's possible that you'd get nothing with that configuration. If you get anything, expect dropouts. My 4228 and HDP-269 preamp overloads. I'm 9 miles from the Albany antenna farm.



I assume you have your 4228 pointed at WBKI as well and the preamp is overloading from the Louisville antennas?


----------



## rgharrin

I have an Archer (Radio Shack) combo antenna.

It has 8x2 arms for VHF. Since there are no 2-6 channels, where I live, is it possible to *trim* the arms for those channels to better pick up channels 7-13?


----------



## JimP

I finally got my antenna amplifier yesterday and installed it.


I still get an occassional dropout(mostly audio at 10 minute intervals) which raises some other questions.


Can you tell from just looking at the signal strength meter if the dropout is between you and the station? We had some pretty bad weather but not between me and the station...I don't think. It appeared from the weather map that it was west south west of their transmitter which makes me think that it can be between them and the satellite. For that matter, the weather at the network's uplink facility can be a factor.


So what I guess I'm trying to figure out is have I got my system as good as it gets for 95% of the time and some of the rest would require doubling the size of my antennas and even then you still have to deal with weather before it gets transmitted from the station.


----------



## ctdish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rgharrin* /forum/post/16928879
> 
> 
> I have an Archer (Radio Shack) combo antenna.
> 
> It has 8x2 arms for VHF. Since there are no 2-6 channels, where I live, is it possible to *trim* the arms for those channels to better pick up channels 7-13?




In most of the 2-13 antennas the long elements have a function on the high VHF channels as well as on the lower channels so trimming them without doing some computer modeling will probably cause the antenna to have less gain on all channels.

I you want a smaller antenna buy one of the VHF high antennas.

John


----------



## baud

rgharrin


I have cut a VU-190 down and it works great.



Look at the Channel Master CM 2020 it's almost the same.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=CM-2020


----------



## rgharrin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *baud* /forum/post/16930309
> 
> 
> rgharrin
> 
> 
> I have cut a VU-190 down and it works great.
> 
> 
> 
> Look at the Channel Master CM 2020 it's almost the same.
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=CM-2020



I have a VU160. How do you know what length to cut the long to?

I suspect I could match the shorter ones.

I'll look at the 2020


----------



## baud

I only cut the boom and feed lines, then re drilled the holes for the mounting u bolt.


Before i cut it i used it without the back end for awhile and it worked fine.


If the VU-160 is joined together the same as the Vu-190 you could try that first.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Before i cut it i used it without the back end for awhile and it worked fine.



Thats a good way to test to see if it will work fine for you. Just cut the feed lines going to the back elements. Then if it doesnt work good enough, attach them back.


Like ctdish said, without carefull computer modeling (or a simple reversible cut test) its not advisable to cut down a full vhf antenna. On a LPDA, the back elements act as reflectors for the front elements. Removing the back elements can also seriously distort the gain curve. But depending on the situation, it may be fine for you.


----------



## JimP




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP* /forum/post/16928980
> 
> 
> I finally got my antenna amplifier yesterday and installed it.
> 
> 
> I still get an occassional dropout(mostly audio at 10 minute intervals) which raises some other questions.
> 
> 
> Can you tell from just looking at the signal strength meter if the dropout is between you and the station? We had some pretty bad weather but not between me and the station...I don't think. It appeared from the weather map that it was west south west of their transmitter which makes me think that it can be between them and the satellite. For that matter, the weather at the network's uplink facility can be a factor.
> 
> 
> So what I guess I'm trying to figure out is have I got my system as good as it gets for 95% of the time and some of the rest would require doubling the size of my antennas and even then you still have to deal with weather before it gets transmitted from the station.



bump....and another question I'd like to ask. Is it possible for an antenna preamp to affect picture quality by changing the contrast. None of my stations go over a signal strength of 92 with the winegard HDP 269 preamp which is only a 12 db gain preamp. My reason for asking is that it appears to me that no only with this preamp, but another one I had with a slightly different antenna array, that the picture looked better without the preamp.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP* /forum/post/16933343
> 
> 
> bump....and another question I'd like to ask. Is it possible for an antenna preamp to affect picture quality by changing the contrast.



No, not with a digital signal.


----------



## systems2000

Another way to use a Combo antenna and eliminate the VHF-Low is to install a VHF-Low/High combiner. Run the antenna to the VHF-High port and terminate the VHF-Low port.


OOPS! Forgot about the UHF.


----------



## tunamike

I have a situation where I am pretty sure I am getting an overload conditon from 2 ufh stations and 1 vhf. I guess that leaves me with 2 questions the first being can I get a filter, attentuator for vhf channel 12 only and I see there is a winegard 2700 dual tuneable attentuator for uhf. Is all this to many hook-ups etc and If this is the route taken will these types of filters etc cause a signal degrade in the adjoining channels which leaves me to the same situation I have now.


----------



## rabbit73

*tunamike*:

What does your exact address tvfool.com report look like and what channels are you concerned about?


----------



## systems2000

tunamike,


I doubt WWPX is causing an "Overload" condition. As for WHAG and WWPB, you're at least 15 miles from those transmitters.


Since we get stations on 7, 8, 9, 10 (Harrisburg), 11, 12, & 13 here in Franklin County, using a channel trap is nearly impossible (unless you're willing to give up adjacent channels).


My best solution so far (I'm still working on other options) is to use two antennas (one on a rotor) and an A/B switch and/or RF/RCA options with multiple CECB's (each room has three).


The fixed antenna is peaked for W08EE-D (WNPB - WV PBS 24), which also gives me WHAG, WWPB, WVPY, WWPX, and WJAL.


My rotor antenna is mostly set for WMAR, WJZ*, WUTB, WBFF*, and WNUV. It's set for WTAJ (Mon. through Fri.) to record Y&R and tuned to WPMT when FOX is required. I'm working on getting WLYH with a fixed yagi (WTAJ and WPMT are going that way soon).


Speaking of WLYH, have you tried setting your antenna almost due North (350° to 5°M) to catch them? If not, give it a try. Even though it is 90° off-axis, both Dewster1977 and I have found that is where we receive the station. We believe it's bouncing off the Tuscarora Ridge somewhere.


Finally, I'll be looking to improve reception of WTTG, WJLA, WUSA, and WDCA. Like WJZ and WBFF, I can't get any dependable reception for those stations.


Also, give WDCW a call and ask them to at least reactivate W51CY as analog, until they get the finances to convert to digital. WITF's W38AN could be coming on-line at the end of the month (can't wait for PA PBS).


----------



## hayj

OK, so I got the mast mounted and attached the 4228. When I first put it up, I pointed south to WBKI and relied on the backside for the locals, 15 miles away. Unfortunately the local stations dropout too much for this to be a viable setup. I then turned the antenna to the stations that are here in the city and still got dropouts. It wasn't looking good. Then I decided to check my pointing, used Google Earth to draw a line from my roof to the transmitters, and checked the signal. No dropouts. So it may have been a pointing issue all along. Maybe as much as 30 degrees. So this makes me wonder about this being a mulitpath issues. Maybe I had the highest gain of the antenna pointed at a reflection and then that made the reflected signal near the strength of the direct signal? There is a major medical center with 3 hospitals a few miles away in that direction. Lots of concrete and metal.


Anyway, I called Channel Master and Winegard about this problem. They recommend the CM-2016 and the HD-1080 respectively. What do you guys think for the stations at 15 miles out? I was a little concerned about their size and less directionality. Right now the 4228 is doing great but it has a smaller acceptance angle doesn't it? Getting something with a wider angle could be problematic as demonstrated form my previous problems. I was thinking a 7695p.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hayj* /forum/post/16947660
> 
> 
> Getting something with a wider angle could be problematic as demonstrated form my previous problems.



I think that your real problem was caused by misaiming, not a wide angle antenna.


Your plan of a HD7695P would work, but even the smaller HD7694P should be OK when aimed directly at the stations.


The problem is CW. There's no good way to add a channel 19 to another antenna that also has a 17. I suggest that you use their analog LPTV station on channel 28 until they build their digital LP station on channel 34. The aim for those are the same as the other Louisville stations.


To get ION use a Y5-7-13 and a channel 8 Jointenna.
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=Y5-7-13 
http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master...9497497&sr=1-5


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16948587
> 
> 
> The problem is CW. There's no good way to add a channel 19 to another antenna that also has a 17. I suggest that you use their analog LPTV station on channel 28 until they build their digital LP station on channel 34. The aim for those are the same as the other Louisville stations.



Unfortunately that won't work. I have a HDhomerun that's a digital only tuner. I can watch 28 on my tv, but then there's no dvr. I already have a jointenna for 19 but you think it's going to attenuate 17 so much it's not strong enough? I have the 4228 pointed at 17 now, I guess I could pass it through the "all channels" portion on the filter and see.


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16948587
> 
> 
> I suggest that you use their analog LPTV station on channel 28 until they build their digital LP station on channel 34.



I didn't mention that WBKI has no plans to add a digital station here in Louisville. I called and asked them about it. The rep. said there are currently no plans to add a digital broadcast in the foreseeable future. I originally planned to do as you mentioned until I found this out.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hayj* /forum/post/16948695
> 
> 
> I guess I could pass it through the "all channels" portion on the filter and see.



That's worth trying.


----------



## rgharrin

TV Fool says point the antenna at 342 degrees.

I get poor results.

If I point at 5 degrees, the improvement is dramatic.

I am 65 mi away.

Two different antennas show the same results for stations 7, 9, 31.

Unusual?


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hayj* /forum/post/16925059
> 
> 
> I assume you have your 4228 pointed at WBKI as well and the preamp is overloading from the Louisville antennas?



This probably made no sense to you. When you mentioned the Albany antenna farm, I misread and thought you were in Louisville and in a similar situation. Our antennas sit outside of New Albany, outside Louisville. I noticed your in New York.


Anyway, the Jointenna drops channel 17 by about 9dB. Its now at 70% signal strength and StoN, down from 85%. The HD7695P looks to have about 2dB less gain on channel 17 (I couldn't find an exact number) so I'll be looking at a drop of about 11dB. 75% is the recommended level so I'll be well below that. I think I could use something like the HDP-269 to make up for the loss. I'm fairly confident it won't saturate on my other channels. The four major networks are showing 89%, 92%, 94%, and 72%. SiliconDust claims the tuner can handle 40dB higher than 100%. First though I'll probably try without the preamp and shorten the run, as the cable is a little longer than I need because I wanted to wait until final placement. Given this is the HD7694/95, still a good candidate?


----------



## rgharrin

TV Fool says point the antenna at 342 degrees.

I get poor results.

If I point at 5 degrees, the improvement is dramatic.

I am 65 mi away.

Two different antennas show the same results for stations 7, 9, 31.

Unusual?


To answer my own question, channel 31 is at 5 degrees!


----------



## JimP

Does make you wonder if your compass can possibly be defective.


----------



## hayj

The thought occurred to me that since I'm getting reliable performance on the 4228 with my stations at 15 miles, I should instead buy another antenna specifically for channel 19 at 45 miles and keep the 4228 pointed where it is. I think I could get better gain and maybe avoid a preamp this way. I was looking at the Antennas Direct 91XG or Winegard HD-9032. Reviews lean towards the 91XG but this site claims the lower UHF difference is only slightly better and the HD-9032 is considerably less.

http://www.hdtvtruckee.com/AntennaComparison.htm


----------



## Pagoona

Any advice/tips for climbing an antenna tower? I'm sure someone here has experience climbing their own. It's about 35 feet tall and 25 of those are attached to the house. I trust its integrity and I'm sure I would be fine climbing it unsupported but I would feel much better if I had some sort of harness to wear, protecting myself from any unforeseen slip of the foot. Any suggestions?


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pagoona* /forum/post/16962610
> 
> 
> Any advice/tips for climbing an antenna tower? I'm sure someone here has experience climbing their own. It's about 35 feet tall and 25 of those are attached to the house. I trust its integrity and I'm sure I would be fine climbing it unsupported but I would feel much better if I had some sort of harness to wear, protecting myself from any unforeseen slip of the foot. Any suggestions?



A tower belt is crucial. It's the only way to have both hands free. Here's what I use.

http://www.onvsafetybelt.com/listings.asp 


Specifically, the "747 REGULAR SAFETY BELT WITH LANYARD".


Ron


----------



## Pagoona




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/16962722
> 
> 
> A tower belt is crucial. It's the only way to have both hands free. Here's what I use.
> 
> http://www.onvsafetybelt.com/listings.asp
> 
> 
> Specifically, the "747 REGULAR SAFETY BELT WITH LANYARD".
> 
> 
> Ron



Thanks. Now that you mention it, I can't imagine fiddling with the antenna unless I had both hands free. However, that belt is much more than what I'm willing to pay. Do you think they have harnesses or belts for rental at a home improvement store?


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pagoona* /forum/post/16962610
> 
> 
> Any advice/tips for climbing an antenna tower? I'm sure someone here has experience climbing their own. It's about 35 feet tall and 25 of those are attached to the house. I trust its integrity and I'm sure I would be fine climbing it unsupported but I would feel much better if I had some sort of harness to wear, protecting myself from any unforeseen slip of the foot. Any suggestions?



yes be careful.


have a person on the ground there at all times, they shouldn't stay where something could fall on them if dropped. if you fell or got hung up they could get help. also they can fetch tools you for you so you don't have to make multiple climbs which increase risk.


wear shoes with the stiffest hardest soles with good heels (to catch the rung), this will help with foot fatigue which helps keeping sure footed.


don't lean back, work and climb close to the tower.


haul up all tools or parts by rope, only carry yourself up (maybe with an empty tool belt) with this hauling rope tied to your belt behind you. when you get to your work spot you tie that to tower. use a tool belt that you wear or a bucket tied to tower to hold tools.


if you don't have a butt or body harness then you could improvise. If you had some rope in good condition with a weight limit twice your weight. you should minimally tie a bowline knot and tie yourself to tower (let yourself have 3 or 4 feet of rope, gives you freedom and if you fell it is easy to recover from small drop) when you get to your work spot (could even try rescue knots which loop legs and waist, i don't have example at the moment). even with belt or rope it is safer and feels better to work with an arm wrapped around tower or mast (hook tower part with inside elbow and your hand is free to hold or work).


you can even macrame an improvised safety belt using square knots in not too much time, make it as wide as a store bought belt. can tie off with a couple lengths and have about the same security as a store bought.


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: Mountain Climbing gear:
http://www.rei.com/category/4500075 

Also note REI Expert Advice on the left.


You also need a pair of short lanyards to tie you to the tower (only move one at a time)....

There's a lot of slightly used equipment for sale....


----------



## John P




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pagoona* /forum/post/16962610
> 
> 
> Any advice/tips for climbing an antenna tower? I'm sure someone here has experience climbing their own. It's about 35 feet tall and 25 of those are attached to the house. I trust its integrity and I'm sure I would be fine climbing it unsupported but I would feel much better if I had some sort of harness to wear, protecting myself from any unforeseen slip of the foot. Any suggestions?



Hire a professional. Repairs to humans are too expensive.


----------



## systems2000

Even though I was "Tower Qualified," I usually climb my 50' "Ladder Tower" all the time without a harness and no spotter. I have complete confidence in my abilities and the tower.


That said, when I do major work on the tower, I wear my fatigue pants, for carrying a couple of wrenches and screwdrivers (I've only dropped a 7/16" combo wrench once) and use a good 80' cotton rope to tie myself (I wrap the rope around me and the tower about six times) to the tower and to have enough length to raise large components.


I like that idea about a macrame belt, although I would weave in a couple of "D-rings" to clip to.


----------



## AntAltMike

I've never used a safety belt, but it is crazy not to. I've been "bonked" while working high up twice. One time was when I was installing a temperature sensor on the back side of an Andrew 4.5 meter dish on top of the ABC News Building headquarters, a gadget that I had clamped onto a horizontal rod swung down and hit me solidly on the side of my head. If I had been facing the direction it swung from and if it had instead hit me in the face, I just might have reacted to it in a way that could have led to my falling.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16963636
> 
> 
> ...(I've only dropped a 7/16" combo wrench once)...



I once had a hammer fall out of my tool belt (on a sloped roof, not on a tower) and miss the hood of a Rolls Royce by less than a foot. The way I see it is, if your ever going to do something stupid that gets your insurance canceled, it might as well be damaging a Rolls Royce.


----------



## systems2000

Talking about stupid and cars, when I was doing Primestar installs, I had a customer who decided to quickly remove a tree so that I wouldn't leave without installing the system. Needless to say he was in such a rush to get the system that he felled the tree right across the hood of his car.










Since the tree was now down and the damage was done, he had me continue with the install, so that the day wasn't a total loss.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hayj* /forum/post/16955028
> 
> 
> I should instead buy another antenna specifically for channel 19 at 45 miles and keep the 4228 pointed where it is.



Unless you separate the cabling by a switch, or install a jointenna type device, this could easily cause more problems than it solves. It may take quite a bit of trial and error, otherwise, since the signals from the two antennas will interfere with each other.


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/16969657
> 
> 
> Unless you separate the cabling by a switch, or install a jointenna type device, this could easily cause more problems than it solves. It may take quite a bit of trial and error, otherwise, since the signals from the two antennas will interfere with each other.



I have a jointenna for channel 19.


----------



## hayj

So does anyone have an opinion and or experience on a 91XG vs. HD-9032. Maybe a better candidate? I'm trying to get channel 19 which is about 50 miles.


Callsign Chan Network Dist(mi) Path NM(dB)

WBKI-DT 19 (34.1) CW 49.5 2Edge 14.8


----------



## PCTools

Ok, I think everyone here knows I have a horizontal stack of 91XG's at 55' in the air. (They work great)


Here is the crazy projects I am thinking about.


1) Stack 4 - 91 XG's Vertically on the legs of the tower to try and get some Detroit coverage during the day. (On the last two section of tower).









- I have 5 of them, but I think I am just wasting to much signal with couplers. My horizontal stack is not reliable with this market.


2) Do a quad box style of 91 XG's at 20'.

- These will ONLY be 20' off the ground. I can shoot them 5- 10 degrees of the horizon.


Maybe, I am just wasting my time.


And yes, I do have a garage full on antennas!


Any ideas, or just forget about it all and have a brewski.


----------



## JimP

Sounds like you're already in the brewskies.










Hey, it's a hobby. If you want to try it out, go right ahead. Just be careful.


----------



## ngarrang




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/16974868
> 
> 
> 1) Stack 4 - 91 XG's Vertically on the legs of the tower to try and get some Detroit coverage during the day. (On the last two section of tower).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - I have 5 of them, but I think I am just wasting to much signal with couplers. My horizontal stack is not reliable with this market.
> 
> 
> 2) Do a quad box style of 91 XG's at 20'.
> 
> - These will ONLY be 20' off the ground. I can shoot them 5- 10 degrees of the horizon.



Try both. Put a pre-amp on each antennas BEFORE the combiner, and that should take care of the signal loss. One of the inline amps I saw, the DC power injector could power 3 such inline amps.


If you stack them vertical, maybe you could remove the coax connections and ladder-line connect them together, like you would a stack of rhombics? Not sure what the impedance would be at that point, but I bet somewhere here could give you an answer.


----------



## ngarrang

I would love to have the money right now for a tower and get my antennas up to 50'.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ngarrang* /forum/post/16974951
> 
> 
> Try both. Put a pre-amp on each antennas BEFORE the combiner, and that should take care of the signal loss.



Unfortunately, that doesn't work. The noise of the amplifiers add, which eliminates the advantage of the decreased loss.


In order to add four antennas together with low loss you can use equal lengths of RG-6 with F connectors on one end and BNC on the other. Connect them to this: http://minicircuits.com/pdfs/ZFSC-4-175.pdf 


The other way to add them it to make your own coaxial combiner. To do so, get three BNC TEE connectors. As above, use four equal lengths on RG-6 with F connectors on one end and BNC on the other. Have two antennas go to one TEE, the other two antennas to a second TEE. Use a quarter wavelength of 50 ohm coax to connect each TEE to a third TEE. Use 75 ohm coax between the third TEE and the preamp.


The length of the quarter wave matching lines would be 4 3/8" for channel 32, a frequency of 581 mhz. Slightly longer would work better below channel 32, slightly shorter for higher channels.


This is a BNC connector:
http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/358...40-112533.html 

This is a BNC TEE
http://mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=bnc+tee 


It's this circuit without the balancing resistor: http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclo..._splitters.cfm


----------



## Colm

Don't you want to use 75 ohm BNC connectors with the ZFSC-4-175?


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/16978202
> 
> 
> Don't you want to use 75 ohm BNC connectors with the ZFSC-4-175?



That is correct. The device has a 75 ohm impedenace BNC connector and requires a mating connector on the cable (or F to BNC adaptor). And, make sure its a 75 ohm, not a 50 ohm impedence BNC. They differ mechanically and electrically.


Cheers.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Here is the crazy projects I am thinking about.
> 
> 
> 1) Stack 4 - 91 XG's Vertically on the legs of the tower to try and get some Detroit coverage during the day. (



If youre going thru all that trouble, bite the bullet, go thru the learning curve, and get into antenna modeling with free 4nec2. Ken Nist already has the 91XG model posted, so a lot of work has already been done for you.







Then you can tweak the model to find the best spacing distances and phasing lines without climbing up and down the tower, which can get old after a while, heh.


----------



## holl_ands

Fairly expensive STRIPLINE combiners have 0.2 to 1.0 dB of insertion loss (vice 6++ dB above),

but Lindsay Full UHF Band Couplers (2WCU1469 2-port, 0.2 dB loss and 4WCU1469 4-port, 0.2 dB loss)

are no longer available (maybe used???).

Fol. is summary of what I could find on-line. Call to see if they also stock full UHF Band:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=16072450 

PS: IF it's small, it's a high-loss HYBRID transformer. Wilkinson low-loss Stripline Couplers are BIG.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16979578
> 
> 
> Fairly expensive STRIPLINE combiners have 0.2 to 1.0 dB of insertion loss (vice 6++ dB above),
> 
> but Lindsay Full UHF Band Couplers (2WCU1469 2-port, 0.2 dB loss and 4WCU1469 4-port, 0.2 dB loss)
> 
> are no longer available (maybe used???).
> 
> Fol. is summary of what I could find on-line. Call to see if they also stock full UHF Band:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=16072450
> 
> PS: IF it's small, it's a high-loss HYBRID transformer. Wilkinson low-loss Stripline Couplers are BIG.



The Minicircuits splitter/combiner has 6 db loss only when used as a splitter. When used as a combiner the signals add with .2 to 1 db loss.


Yes, 75 ohm BNC's should be used with the Minicircuits combiner.


If you make your own with TEE connectors you'll need 50 ohm BNC's.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hayj* /forum/post/16974152
> 
> 
> So does anyone have an opinion and or experience on a 91XG vs. HD-9032. Maybe a better candidate? I'm trying to get channel 19 which is about 50 miles.
> 
> 
> Callsign Chan Network Dist(mi) Path NM(dB)
> 
> WBKI-DT 19 (34.1) CW 49.5 2Edge 14.8



I can't speak to the HD-9032, but the 91XG should pick it up OK. I get a ch 17 reliably from about 68 miles, with a 2Edge path and NM 13.7, and some blockage from trees. And a CM 7777 pre-amp.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hayj* /forum/post/16974152
> 
> 
> So does anyone have an opinion and or experience on a 91XG vs. HD-9032. Maybe a better candidate? I'm trying to get channel 19 which is about 50 miles.
> 
> 
> Callsign Chan Network Dist(mi) Path NM(dB)
> 
> WBKI-DT 19 (34.1) CW 49.5 2Edge 14.8



I'd personally go with the 91-XG. I have seen a few posts here that tried both & prefer the 91-XG. I have very good results on channels 21(-2.1 nm) & 22(-13.2 nm) with mine. They are 85 & 99 miles away respectiviely. Both signals show activity 24/7, but generally only decode at night.


----------



## philly_kid

Please help!



So I dropped my cable for OTA. I bought a cheap, open box, antennas direct clearstream 1. I pointed it in the right direction. Bam - I get all the channels I'm supposed to get from my roof. I try to split it to run to the kitchen and guest room - I don't get 1/2 the channels. So i order a preamplifier - titan 2 7777. I get it all hooked up and it makes it worse. Why? Do I have to use special cable for the run from antenna to the power source? Is it something else? Help!


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *philly_kid* /forum/post/16984536
> 
> 
> Please help!
> 
> 
> 
> So I dropped my cable for OTA. I bought a cheap, open box, antennas direct clearstream 1. I pointed it in the right direction. Bam - I get all the channels I'm supposed to get from my roof. I try to split it to run to the kitchen and guest room - I don't get 1/2 the channels. So i order a preamplifier - titan 2 7777. I get it all hooked up and it makes it worse. Why? Do I have to use special cable for the run from antenna to the power source? Is it something else? Help!



You likely have either


1) A defective pre-amp


or


2) A wiring or device usage error.


Eliminate the splitter first and make certain the pre-amp works. Verify it's set for combined input.


If it does, then examine where your power inserter is relative to the splitter. If the i9nserter is "downstream" from the splitter and the pre-amp is on the "other side" of the splitter, verify you are using a DC PASS splitter and that you have the cables hooked up correctly.


----------



## philly_kid

I did remove the splitter, and it still wasn't getting as many channels as without the preamp. "combined imput" is the default, but I opened it up and checked anyway. My splitter is downstream the power portion of the preamp.


----------



## finlay648




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *philly_kid* /forum/post/16984536
> 
> 
> Please help!
> 
> 
> 
> So I dropped my cable for OTA. I bought a cheap, open box, antennas direct clearstream 1. I pointed it in the right direction. Bam - I get all the channels I'm supposed to get from my roof. I try to split it to run to the kitchen and guest room - I don't get 1/2 the channels. So i order a preamplifier - titan 2 7777. I get it all hooked up and it makes it worse. Why? Do I have to use special cable for the run from antenna to the power source? Is it something else? Help!



Maybe all you need is a distribution amp instead of the splitter. I've had good results with the CM3414.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/16984717
> 
> 
> You likely have either
> 
> 
> 1) A defective pre-amp
> 
> 
> or
> 
> 
> 2) A wiring or device usage error.



3) Overload???????????? Can you go to www.tvfool.com & post your report link here?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *philly_kid* /forum/post/16984536
> 
> 
> Please help!
> 
> 
> 
> So I dropped my cable for OTA. I bought a cheap, open box, antennas direct clearstream 1. I pointed it in the right direction. Bam - I get all the channels I'm supposed to get from my roof. I try to split it to run to the kitchen and guest room - I don't get 1/2 the channels. So i order a preamplifier - titan 2 7777. I get it all hooked up and it makes it worse. Why? Do I have to use special cable for the run from antenna to the power source? Is it something else? Help!



Preamps can be overloaded. The 7777 is great for rural areas, but not in most cities.


The way to check if the 7777 is the right preamp is to look at the signal strengths on tvfool.com. You can post the results back here. You'll get more advice than you can handle.


----------



## 300ohm

philly_kid, post your TVFool. You may be overloading .



Edit: Heh, looks like a few beat me to the punch.


Also, do you mean to say you are getting channel 6 WPVI, with the Clearstream 1 ? If so, you are very close to the stations.


----------



## philly_kid

yes, the only problem I have w/channel 6 is during bad weather. I'm less than 10 miles to the majority of stations. I thought the preamp would mitigate the loss of signal from splitting...


----------



## philly_kid

here is the link to tvfool

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7d4923d5c15812


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *philly_kid* /forum/post/16985028
> 
> 
> here is the link to tvfool
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7d4923d5c15812



Yikes!!! Overload city!!! The only pre-amp that would work for you would be the HDP-269. With those signal strengths, I personally would avoid a pre-amp altogether & use a Winegard HD7694P antenna. It should easily power 2-3 sets with no amp. It should also pick up ABC 6 much better than the C-1, even though neither antenna is really designed for it.


----------



## philly_kid

The overload is too much even after splitting it 3-4 ways?


----------



## finlay648




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *philly_kid* /forum/post/16985213
> 
> 
> The overload is too much even after splitting it 3-4 ways?



Yes because the CM7777 boosts the signal by 20+dB which may be too much for the output stage. A CM3414 4-way distribution amp might work better since each output gets 8dB amplification and the input has some AGC I think.


John


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *finlay648* /forum/post/16985282
> 
> 
> Yes because the CM7777 boosts the signal by 20+dB which may be too much for the output stage. A CM3414 4-way distribution amp might work better since each output gets 8dB amplification and the input has some AGC I think.



The new Channel Master specs are poorly written. The CM3410, 3412 and 3414 each have 15 dB of amplifier gain, followed by internal splitter loss, and probably have a maximum input of 10dBmV with a 125 channel, flat input. God only knows what that means. In analog days, sometimes the maximum input/output figures were the power level at which the amplifier developed a recognized, unacceptable level of sync compression or cross modulation. Now it is more often the power level at which it develops some benchmark level of second or third order intermodulation distortion.


Some of the more reputable manufacturers seem to have standardized on using -40dBc 3rd order IMD as an engineering reference benchmark. An amplifier might be rated to develop -40 dBc of 3rd Order IMD with an input of one channel and an output of, say, 54 dBmV. From that, one can readily adjust for number of equal strength channels and number of amplifiers in a cascade, but unfortunately, off-air preamps almost never have equal strength inputs. There is always a differential in off-air signal levels, and weak signals will always get decimated by stronger signals in an amplifier at levels well below any published benchmark or reference overload levels. I can always bandpass filter off a single weak channel before preamplifying because I build headends that serve hundreds of customers, but most residential viewers cannot justify that expense.


Philly_kid is 8 miles from his problem, channel 6 transmitter, but he doesn't have a line of sight transmission path. He is not going to solve any problem he is having with an amplifier. He needs an antenna solution.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/16985076
> 
> 
> Yikes!!! Overload city!!! The only pre-amp that would work for you would be the HDP-269. With those signal strengths, I personally would avoid a pre-amp altogether & use a Winegard HD7694P antenna.



I wouldn't suggest a 7-69 antenna for channel 6 reception in a non line of sight situation. This is due to the increased possibility of multipath. For a new antenna I'd look at a Winegard HD7010 or larger. http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=HD-7010 


The cheapest solution would be to use a UVSJ to add a 2-13 VHF only such as the Antennacraft CS600 to the UHF only C1.
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=CS600 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16986116
> 
> 
> I wouldn't suggest a 7-69 antenna for channel 6 reception in a non line of sight situation. This is due to the increased possibility of multipath.



Agreed,


I only suggested the 7694 because of it's compact size, & the OP stated he is getting 6 OK now except during adverse weather.


----------



## philly_kid




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16986116
> 
> 
> I wouldn't suggest a 7-69 antenna for channel 6 reception in a non line of sight situation. This is due to the increased possibility of multipath. For a new antenna I'd look at a Winegard HD7010 or larger. http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=HD-7010
> 
> 
> The cheapest solution would be to use a UVSJ to add a 2-13 VHF only such as the Antennacraft CS600 to the UHF only C1.
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=CS600
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ



OK both of these options are reasonably priced and will require time for shipping. And in neither of these options I would need the pre-amplifier, correct? For the second option, I mount the CS600 on my roof, plug it and my C1 into the USVJ and split it somewhere downstream?


Which option is most likely to succeed?


----------



## okfireman

Just got rid of my Directv setup and trying to get local channels for the first time in quite awhile. I have only ever used the basic analog antennas back in the day and am not sure what all I need.

My reception was never that great but that was before digital took over. Can anyone recommend a good antenna or antenna setup for me. Probably dont need anything to crazy since there arent a whole lot of channels to pick up, but I have no clue what I am looking at here.

I would like it to be able to give signal to an HTPC dual digital tuner and to a analog TV in the bedroom that I imagine I will get a convertor box for unless you guys no of a better option.


Here is my TV Fool. 

Thanks in advance for the help guys.


----------



## philly_kid

I didn't realize this until it was pointed out to me, but my antenna is uhf only. I had my preamp set for combined uhf, vhf. While I was on the roof, I switched it back and forth but didn't seem to have much luck either way... Could this be part of the problem?


----------



## JimP

philly-kid


If you're trying to tune in VHF channels, of course.


I had a similar problem in reverse. My preamp was UHF only. By the time I discovered that, I had already ordered a new antenna.


----------



## philly_kid




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP* /forum/post/16987451
> 
> 
> philly-kid
> 
> 
> If you're trying to tune in VHF channels, of course.
> 
> 
> I had a similar problem in reverse. My preamp was UHF only. By the time I discovered that, I had already ordered a new antenna.



I'm getting my vhf channels fine w/o an amp. It's when I try to split it that I lose signals. I'm wondering if the preamp, amplifies the vhf signal even tho the antenna is uhf only, or if setting it to combined screws up the signals because the antenna is uhf only...


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Are you certain you've got a splitter and not a diplexer?


BTW, you probably should list the problem channels....


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I didn't realize this until it was pointed out to me, but my antenna is uhf only.



Yep, the C1 is worse than rabbit ears for your vhf-hi channels 6 and 12. Thats why I knew you were very close to the Manayunk hill.


I would try a 4 bay bowtie without any amp, and use a couple of quality (they will state the 3.5dbi loss on them) 2 way splitters.

The 4 bay bowtie will give you about 13 db gain, minus the 7 dbi for 2 splitters will put you back to about where the C1s gain is.

I would also return the CM7777 for a refund.


Were you using the C1 with the reflector ?


----------



## philly_kid

im using this as a splitter - http://www.goodmart.com/products/980788.htm 


Im using 2 parts of the c1 - the disc and the rectangular cage behind it.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *philly_kid* /forum/post/16986463
> 
> 
> Which option is most likely to succeed?



I'd give the CS600 + C1 a 98% chance of success, the HD7010 99%.


----------



## philly_kid




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/16990043
> 
> 
> I'd give the CS600 + C1 a 98% chance of success, the HD7010 99%.



I'll take those odds.


To get strong enough signals to split 3 ways?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *philly_kid* /forum/post/16990331
> 
> 
> I'll take those odds.
> 
> 
> To get strong enough signals to split 3 ways?



If the C1 that you have now can be split three ways and you get WTXF on all three TV's your odds are very good.


----------



## philly_kid

Here are some more details. My antenna on the 4th floor roof, comes straight down to the second floor. I split it to the tv in that room and down to the basement where my "hub" is. All the coax from the house terminates there. From there, I split it again and go to two different rooms on the first and second floor.


Initially with a cheap splitter from the roof, I got most channels on that first tv I described on the second floor but nothing on the other two. Now with a better splitter, I'm getting everything on that second floor tv but still nothing on the other tvs. Does that make sense?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> im using this as a splitter - http://www.goodmart.com/products/980788.htm



Based on what youre saying above, are you terminating the unused outlets on that 4 way splitter ?



> Quote:
> My antenna on the 4th floor roof, comes straight down to the second floor. I split it to the tv in that room and down to the basement where my "hub" is.



OK, a good 2 way splitter should go there.



> Quote:
> From there, I split it again and go to two different rooms on the first and second floor.



Then another good 2 way splitter should go there. Where are you using the 4 way splitter ?


----------



## iwampfler

My 08/10/2009 07:17 PM E-Mail to RCA:

I am trying to find the ANT2000. I have found that uppliers are stating that this item is "out of stock", "discontinued" or "no longer available". Is this item, or another Smart Antenna, still being manufactured? I want to use it with the RCA DTA800B converter box that I have.


8/12/2009 Reply from RCA:


Your concern is on getting the ANT2000.


Our apologies but we were recently informed by our headquarters that model ANT2000 has been pulled from the market, this is the only smart antenna model that RCA has and there's no information yet given if it will be reintroduced or if there will be a replacement model for it. You can visit www.rcaaccessories.com to check for the currently available antenna models in the stores. Our products are sold at our major dealers such as Walmart, Best Buy, Target or Radioshack. You may also search the internet for independent online retailers that may carry the product that you intend to buy.


Thank you.



Sincerely,


Reinel Tesoro

Customer Service


----------



## philly_kid




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/16991370
> 
> 
> Based on what youre saying above, are you terminating the unused outlets on that 4 way splitter ?
> 
> 
> 
> OK, a good 2 way splitter should go there.
> 
> 
> 
> Then another good 2 way splitter should go there. Where are you using the 4 way splitter ?



Because I haven't gotten to getting a two way splitter yet, both my splitters are the 4 way i previously described.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *iwampfler* /forum/post/16991572
> 
> 
> My 08/10/2009 07:17 PM E-Mail to RCA:
> 
> I am trying to find the ANT2000. I have found that uppliers are stating that this item is "out of stock", "discontinued" or "no longer available". Is this item, or another Smart Antenna, still being manufactured? I want to use it with the RCA DTA800B converter box that I have.
> 
> 
> 8/12/2009 Reply from RCA:
> 
> 
> Your concern is on getting the ANT2000.
> 
> 
> Our apologies but we were recently informed by our headquarters that model ANT2000 has been pulled from the market, this is the only smart antenna model that RCA has and there's no information yet given if it will be reintroduced or if there will be a replacement model for it. You can visit www.rcaaccessories.com to check for the currently available antenna models in the stores. Our products are sold at our major dealers such as Walmart, Best Buy, Target or Radioshack. You may also search the internet for independent online retailers that may carry the product that you intend to buy.
> 
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> 
> Reinel Tesoro
> 
> Customer Service


 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...a#post16495045 

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...y#post16497427


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *philly_kid* /forum/post/16991638
> 
> 
> Because I haven't gotten to getting a two way splitter yet, both my splitters are the 4 way i previously described.



Avoid using a splitter with a greater number of ports than you need. You will incur the splitter's greater loss regardless of whether you needed to.


----------



## systems2000

philly_kid,


You have a lot of cable distance to overcome between the roof above the fourth floor and the basement distribution location. Between that and having two 4-way splitters produces at least 16dB loss to the last two televisions. You'll gain 8dB by using two 2-way splitters.


Make sure they will pass at least 700MHZ.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> having two 4-way splitters produces at least 16dB loss to the last two televisions



Plus extra if the unused ports arent terminated.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *iwampfler* /forum/post/16991572
> 
> 
> My 08/10/2009 07:17 PM E-Mail to RCA:
> 
> I am trying to find the ANT2000. I have found that uppliers are stating that this item is "out of stock", "discontinued" or "no longer available". Is this item, or another Smart Antenna, still being manufactured? I want to use it with the RCA DTA800B converter box that I have.
> 
> 
> 8/12/2009 Reply from RCA:
> 
> 
> Your concern is on getting the ANT2000.
> 
> 
> Our apologies but we were recently informed by our headquarters that model ANT2000 has been pulled from the market, this is the only smart antenna model that RCA has and there's no information yet given if it will be reintroduced or if there will be a replacement model for it. You can visit www.rcaaccessories.com to check for the currently available antenna models in the stores. Our products are sold at our major dealers such as Walmart, Best Buy, Target or Radioshack. You may also search the internet for independent online retailers that may carry the product that you intend to buy.
> 
> 
> Thank you. Sincerely, Reinel Tesoro, Customer Service



You might have to look for a used or refurbished ANT2000:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...FRFWagodqHF0dw 


or DX Antenna DTA-5000 Smart Antenna (aka Sylvania, aka Funai, et. al.):
http://www.amazon.com/Funai-Sylvania.../dp/B000EHYFPU 
http://athome-products.com/dta-5000.html 


Comparison tests and interior photos are here:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/smart 


Antennas Direct was working on a UHF Smart Antenna (funding from NAB).

Still no info from A-D re when (if???) they will release to production....


----------



## tunamike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/16936422
> 
> *tunamike*:
> 
> What does your exact address tvfool.com report look like and what channels are you concerned about?



tvfool prefix for my chart its still a little crazy some I should not get but I do real well and some that I should be getting can only get limited




?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d23c523c9d46b7b


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/16994929
> 
> 
> Antennas Direct was working on a UHF Smart Antenna (funding from NAB).
> 
> Still no info from A-D re when (if???) they will release to production....



Not going to happen any time soon (if at all). That should have been obvious from the report you read.


No TV sets with an SA interface and a cluster-fark of incompatible, non-conforming interface implementations in cheap boxes that are purpose-built to be obsolete. As indicated by JER's post on one of the other forums, there's no point in dropping private money into any production until there's a real market, especially in an over-all crappy economy.


The system, when connected to a compatible converter box, works great. The SA electronics, by itself, could make rotors and separate pre-amps obsolete.


----------



## TV Trey




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tunamike* /forum/post/16935136
> 
> 
> I have a situation where I am pretty sure I am getting an overload conditon from 2 ufh stations and 1 vhf. I guess that leaves me with 2 questions the first being can I get a filter, attentuator for vhf channel 12 only and I see there is a winegard 2700 dual tuneable attentuator for uhf. Is all this to many hook-ups etc and If this is the route taken will these types of filters etc cause a signal degrade in the adjoining channels which leaves me to the same situation I have now.



You can buy a single channel notch filter for channel 12 from http://www.eaglecomtronics.com/


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TV Trey* /forum/post/16998161
> 
> 
> You can buy a single channel notch filter for channel 12 from http://www.eaglecomtronics.com/



I don't think a notch at the NTSC video carrier location will do much good in attenuating a digital signal. It'll probably still make it unusable, but it won't stop most intermodulation it's involved in it.


----------



## TV Trey




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/16998774
> 
> 
> I don't think a notch at the NTSC video carrier location will do much good in attenuating a digital signal. It'll probably still make it unusable, but it won't stop most intermodulation it's involved in it.



I was suggesting an RF notch filter designed to attenuate the frequencies from 204 MHz to 210 MHz ( channel 12). I believe what you described above is know as , among other things, a negative trap. Another good source for custom notch filters is http://www.tinlee.com/index.php


----------



## systems2000

I don't think tunamike is looking to eliminate 12 as much as reducing the level down to what 11 and 13 are.


----------



## holl_ands

John Ross (A-D Design Engineer) posted fol. re Smart Antenna I/F problems:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=967868 

A-D reported that incompetent EIA/CEA-909 implementations in most

CECBs with Smart Antenna I/F are an (exaggerated?) problem:
http://www.nabfastroad.org/NAB_Final...ev_Public2.pdf 

PS: Which is probably solvable with Firmware updates to CECBs.....


I still believe there's a market for a Smart Antenna I/F Controller Box that

could select between multiple EXTERNAL antennas pointed in different directions.

EIA/CEA-909 would be one way to control it...responding to IR commands

or other control interfaces (most manu's seem to have one) would be an

alternative configuration.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Here are the problems:


Name one TV set that has a smart antenna interface.


How many CECB manufacturers are likely go back and "fix" potentially thousands of boxes that don't work to the 909/A standard? These were devices that sold wholesale for $20 - $30 in quantity.


Who's going to test each existing CECB model (including different rev levels of firmware) to see if a potential customer's device will work?


If the CECB doesn't work right, who's going to pay for all the additional work to adapt the SA device to non-compliant controllers so they can be made to work?


I agree that there is certainly a market to be had, however, the problem is both lack of a coherent current market and zero future market unless the TV set manufacturers get aboard.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I still believe there's a market for a Smart Antenna I/F Controller Box that could select between multiple EXTERNAL antennas pointed in different directions.



Absolutely, I'd buy one, if it was antenna manufacturer independent, good quality and at a reasonable price.


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TV Trey* /forum/post/16999951
> 
> 
> I was suggesting an RF notch filter designed to attenuate the frequencies from 204 MHz to 210 MHz ( channel 12). I believe what you described above is know as , among other things, a negative trap. Another good source for custom notch filters is http://www.tinlee.com/index.php



It's a terminology issue. If you just want to make a signal hard to use, you can use a filter which is very deep and very narrow -- that's a notch. If you want to prevent overload from a digital signal (which is roughly flat across its bandwidth), you need a filter which is as wide as the channel-- that's a bandstop filter.


Tinlee does have adjacent channel bandstop filters; I have no idea what they cost but I'll bet they aren't cheap.


----------



## holl_ands

I didn't see any specs/curves on the Eagle website.

Soon-Tai has lots of specs/curves, here is a typical single channel TRAP:
http://www.soontai.com/TRF.html 

Note that the 10 dB suppression bandwidth is only 1.5 MHz, well short

of the full 5.8 MHz signal.


Tin-Lee's CE-7 Single Channel Elimination and CR-7-FM Bandstop Filter

curves show how adjacent channels are significantly affected:
http://www.tinlee.com/Graph_CE7_Spec_Order.php?active=1 
http://www.tinlee.com/Graph_ALL_FM_filters.php 


NO, you can't attenuate one channel without affecting adjacent

channels....not only by attenuating them, but also by injecting

ENVELOPE GROUP DELAY well into the adjacent channels, which

will totally mess up the Adaptive Equalizer in the DTV Receiver.....

Tin-Lee doesn't provide DELAY specs for the above, but they do for fol:
http://www.tinlee.com/CATV_MATV-LowpassCustom.php 


==================================

About the only way to attenuate an adjacent channel is using two antennas

with phasing lines adjusted to point a null towards the undesired channel:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=14593948


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/17013477
> 
> 
> NO, you can't attenuate one channel without affecting adjacent
> 
> channels....not only by attenuating them, but also by injecting
> 
> ENVELOPE GROUP DELAY well into the adjacent channels, which
> 
> will totally mess up the Adaptive Equalizer in the DTV Receiver.....



From what I can find, the adaptive equalizer in a DTV tuner can handle delay spreads greater than the ~100ns caused by those filters. They can probably handle some attenuation in the adjacent channels as long as it is consistent.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/17013882
> 
> 
> From what I can find, the adaptive equalizer in a DTV tuner can handle delay spreads greater than the ~100ns caused by those filters.



The word delay is used in two distinct contexts;


Delay compensation to eliminate multipath is slightly less than 100 ms in most tuner chips.


Group delay is a change of the time delay between two frequencies. Let's say that it takes x time for the bottom frequency of the channel to arrive at the tuner, but the top of the channel arrives X+1 or X-1 which may be sooner or later.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/17013882
> 
> 
> From what I can find, the adaptive equalizer in a DTV tuner can handle delay spreads greater than the ~100ns caused by those filters. They can probably handle some attenuation in the adjacent channels as long as it is consistent.



The problem is that channel 12 is LOS at 53.7 NM and 235° (M), while 11 and 13 are 2-edge at -18.9 NM and 121° (M).


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/17013882
> 
> 
> From what I can find, the adaptive equalizer in a DTV tuner can handle delay spreads greater than the ~100ns caused by those filters. They can probably handle some attenuation in the adjacent channels as long as it is consistent.



In order to significantly reduce energy on adjacent channels, ATSC Transmitters

are required to have an Emissions Filter with very sharp skirts:
http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_64a.pdf 


Early on, Gary Sgrignoli (et. al. at Zenith) analyzed the effect of the "mild"

5th Order Chebyshev Filter, finding it degraded the 8VSB signal:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freea...number=1190034 


Example Ch44 filter had 80 ns difference in Group Delay between center

and +/- 3 MHz. Beyond 6 MHz band, filter reached a peak difference of 130 ns.


In other reports, Group Delay just outside the filtered channel was several

hundred nsec due to the use of higher order Chebyshev and Elliptic Filters....

which significantly affects ADJACENT channels.


To compensate for this degradation, transmitters use pre-equalizers,

which are designed to cancel out Freq Response & Group Delay problems

in the Emission Filter, sometimes with on-air feedback mechanisms to

constantly ensure the best transmitted signal as the system changes:
http://www.axcera.com/downloads/tech...technote_8.pdf 


The problem with single channel bandstop filters is the lack of any

GROUP DELAY SPECS. The devices would employ many poles in the internal

filter (like the 5-poles in the example Emissions Filter), which can

be expected to significantly affect adjacent channel (although

probably not next adjacent channels).


As was mentioned earlier, although they are somewhat related,

don't confuse Adaptive Equalizer performance with two wideband signals

delayed from each other (typical ATSC A/74 delay spec) with what the

underlying transmitter/receiver system must provide wrt flat frequency

response, low amplitude distortion and low group delay in the presence

of just one undistorted signal. We don't want to squander significant

portions of the Adaptive Equalizer's capability against transmit or receive

hardware deficiencies, leaving fewer degrees of freedom to attack

multipath signals.


PS: Same argument holds for minimizing VSWR, esp on long cables with

no Preamp where the reflections look like small-delay multipath, which

increases the Error Vector Magnitude (EVM)....(mis)treated here as if it

were degrading the Noise Figure (it has NOTHING to do with NF):
http://www.tvantenna.tv/papers/PFactorsV.pdf 
http://www.tvantenna.tv/papers/dtv%2...prediction.pdf


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17014431
> 
> 
> Delay compensation to eliminate multipath is indeed rated at 100 ns in most tuner chips.



Multipath tolerance is expressed in microseconds. 100 nanoseconds would only be 100 feet of path length difference. Here's a product sheet that specifies the range of it's demodulator.

http://www.zoran.com/IMG/pdf/Cascade2.pdf 


-34 to +78 microseconds. +78 is the largest figure I've seen for any chip.


Ron


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/17036357
> 
> 
> Multipath tolerance is expressed in microseconds. 100 nanoseconds would only be 100 feet of path length difference.



Thanks for catching my mistake.


----------



## Nitewatchman

FWIW, I used tunable notch filters (From Blonder-Tongue and Winegard -) for a number of years to attenuate(before amplification) strong NTSC video or audio carriers a bit on 1st adjacent channels without difficultly regarding reliably decoding 1st adjacent channel DTV signals ...


Of the published specs I have available for what I used(I don't have the B-T specs handy, or a UHF winegard filter), the Winegard TRT-LO or Winegard TRT-HI filters I used were : for TRT-LO, tunable from 54~108 MHZ, TRT-HI tuneable from 174~213MHZ, with a Maximum 12dB notch, specs said the filters had a 2MHZ bandwidth at 1/2 power points (3dB) ... Obviously, I couldn't use those to knock down NTSC audio carriers without attenuating the lower portion of any "N+1" channel .... anyway, I don't believe they've made those things in quite a while ....


In fact actually still use one of the TRT-LO's tuned for maximum effect at about 88.7MHZ , and have decoded several Low-VHF stations on 6 via Es while using it .... (Have several strong FM stations in area on 88~89 MHZ) ....


----------



## okfireman

Should I worry about getting any type of antenna lighting protection? Was reading the manual to my new antenna and they were talking about it and I want to make sure my TV and Computer are safe. Is this anything to worry about and if so what are the recommendations? I have it mounted to my rough on my old directv mounting stand.


----------



## psychoboy

okfireman,


I think you meant to say it is roof mounted? If so, take a look at what happened to my roof mounted antenna after a lightning strike. Direct hit, and there was collateral damage to other stuff in the house even though I had it grounded. But the TV and entertainment systems were unharmed.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post16719970 


You're going to have to make the call for yourself. Good luck!


----------



## JimP

If you're surrounded by much taller trees, does having a ground to the antenna matter?


Doesn't lighting find the highest nearby object?


----------



## holl_ands

It's probably a local code requirement....and if you suffer lightning damage, the insurance

company can use it as justification for NOT PAYING....


PS: Static electricity can build up on a low mounted antenna due to the WIND and can cause

damage to electrical gear at much lower voltages than associated with lightning:
http://www.kilty.com/t_elec.htm 
http://www.concentratemedia.com/inno...arbor0063.aspx 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_electricity


----------



## okfireman

Yes I meant its roof mounted.

No large trees around anywhere.

I live in a small town with pretty leanent codes so I doubt its a code but you never know.

Are there any recommendations on what to do to help reduce the chance of lighting damage or what should I do as a preventative measure?


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *okfireman* /forum/post/17042055
> 
> 
> re there any recommendations on what to do to help reduce the chance of lighting damage or what should I do as a preventative measure?



Here is a good tutorial on the subject:
http://www.mikeholt.com/newsletters....y&letterID=220 


Basically need to drive a ground rod and connect it to the antenna. Then bond ground rod to building electrical system. What you are trying to do is drain off any charge on the antenna and by bonding minimize voltage difference between antenna and other metallic parts of the building.


As far as lightning being attracted to the highest object that is true to an extent. We are a long way off the road and have our own step-down transformer before aerial plant goes underground the last couple of hundred feet. During a storm transformer took a direct hit, even though nearby trees are much taller. Exploded the porcelain lightning arrester on the transformer and took out a bunch of electronics. When utility was repairing transformer the crew mentioned the most dangerous place to be during a storm is at the edge of an open field. As charge builds up it tends to get dragged to objects that reduce path length. Homes are typically at the end of clearing and metallic mast makes a great conductor.


Having endured it once I take lightning protection very seriously now.


----------



## holl_ands

Grounding wire from antenna to ground, in accordance with NEC recommendations,

which may be modified by your local zoning authorities. (NEC=National Electric Code)


You probably can tie into the existing ground system for the Sat Dish if it was installed correctly:
http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Installation/Grounding.htm 
http://www.dbsinstall.com/diy/Grounding-2.asp 

[Navigate within this website for additional info.]


NEC required "grounding block" has a spark gap to discharge moderately high voltages:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2150592 

For additional protection from lower voltage static electricity, see fol:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8591196


----------



## kedirekin

Lightning is a tricky beast. Tentacles of ionization reach upward from all manner of objects, while other tentacles reach downward out of the clouds. The first tentacles to connect complete a circuit and lightning follows.


The tentacles from taller objects start out marginally closer to the cloud layer, but that doesn't mean lightning always strikes the tallest object. Some tentacles start earlier and/or grow faster than others, and an object that had a fast tentacle in one storm may have slow tentacles in other storms. It's all very chaotic.


----------



## nukeboy67

Is this either a: Small multi-directional, medium multi-directional, large multi-directional, small directional, medium directional, or large directional? What are the miles for VHF/UHF/FM?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nukeboy67* /forum/post/17047468
> 
> 
> Is this either a: Small multi-directional, medium multi-directional, large multi-directional, small directional, medium directional, or large directional? What are the miles for VHF/UHF/FM?



Medium directional.


Take whatever mileage Radio Shack said and divide it in half. The VU-90 was rated by them at 90 miles on VHF and some lesser amount on UHF.


Edit: Here are the VU90 specs:



> *Quote:*
> *
> 
> 
> VU-90XR VHF/UHF/FM Antenna
> 
> (150-2152) Specifications Faxback Doc. # 31760
> 
> 
> Average FM Gain: .................................................. 1.0 dB
> 
> 
> Low Band Gain: .................................................... 3.7 dB
> 
> 
> High Band Gain: ................................................... 5.9 dB
> 
> 
> UHF Band Gain: .................................................... 6.4 dB
> 
> 
> Median Avg. F/B Ratio:
> 
> VHF Low Band: .................................................... 12.0
> 
> High Band: ....................................................... 12.0
> 
> FM: ............................................................ .. 11.0
> 
> UHF: ............................................................ . 16.0
> 
> 
> Average Half-Power Beam Width:
> 
> Ch. 2-6: ................................................... 66 degrees
> 
> Ch. 7-13: .................................................. 42 degrees
> 
> FM: ........................................................ 68 degrees
> 
> UHF: ....................................................... 43 degrees
> 
> 
> Element Width (Avg.): .................................... 5.5 to 6.0 Feet
> 
> 
> Boom Length: ................................................... 80 Inches
> 
> 
> Weight: ......................................................... 5.7 lbs.
> 
> 
> Specifications are typical; individual units might vary. Specifications
> 
> are subject to change and improvement without notice.
> 
> 
> 
> (IR/EB 1/23/97)*


*
*


----------



## rgharrin

Today reception strength is cycling 0-75% continuously, up and down

If it is multipath, why no problem for the last week until today?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rgharrin* /forum/post/17047720
> 
> 
> Today reception strength is cycling 0-75% continuously, up and down
> 
> If it is multipath, why no problem for the last week until today?



Might be interference due to atmospheric conditions. With no information about your situation, we can only guess.


Keep in mind that the "signal" meter displays the quality (decodability/lack-of-data-errors) of the date being received, not the strength of the signal. This quality can be degraded by a variety of things including interference and multi-path besides a lack of raw signal power.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Might be interference due to atmospheric conditions. With no information about your situation, we can only guess.


 http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo.html


----------



## 01sporty




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17006593
> 
> 
> Absolutely, I'd buy one, if it was antenna manufacturer independent, good quality and at a reasonable price.



I Tivo everything on a HR10-250 and my stations are in multiple directions so I needed a way to aim the antenna at the appropriate time.


Well, It's not as smart as I would like, but here's how I made my antenna smarter than most. I started with a DB8 antenna and a Channel Master CM 9521A rotator. The rotator will aim to any pre-programmed direction via an IR remote.


Then I picked up a Palm Treo on eBay and added Wawa software by Novii ( http://www.novii.tv/pocketpc/wawa/ ). The Palm is capable of sending and receiving IR and the software is designed to store IR signals and replay them at a designated time.


So now, when I do a Season Pass that requires the antenna, I program the Palm to point the antenna to the correct station at the correct time and day.


----------



## Ken H




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *01sporty* /forum/post/17057504
> 
> 
> I Tivo everything on a HR10-250 and my stations are in multiple directions so I needed a way to aim the antenna at the appropriate time.
> 
> 
> Well, It's not as smart as I would like, but here's how I made my antenna smarter than most. I started with a DB8 antenna and a Channel Master CM 9521A rotator. The rotator will aim to any pre-programmed direction via an IR remote.
> 
> 
> Then I picked up a Palm Treo on eBay and added Wawa software by Novii ( http://www.novii.tv/pocketpc/wawa/ ). The Palm is capable of sending and receiving IR and the software is designed to store IR signals and replay them at a designated time.
> 
> 
> So now, when I do a Season Pass that requires the antenna, I program the Palm to point the antenna to the correct station at the correct time and day.



Very nice. Auto rotor, which many have inquired about over the years.


----------



## Ken H




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/17006279
> 
> 
> Here are the problems:
> 
> 
> Name one TV set that has a smart antenna interface.
> 
> 
> How many CECB manufacturers are likely go back and "fix" potentially thousands of boxes that don't work to the 909/A standard? These were devices that sold wholesale for $20 - $30 in quantity.
> 
> 
> Who's going to test each existing CECB model (including different rev levels of firmware) to see if a potential customer's device will work?
> 
> 
> If the CECB doesn't work right, who's going to pay for all the additional work to adapt the SA device to non-compliant controllers so they can be made to work?
> 
> 
> I agree that there is certainly a market to be had, however, the problem is both lack of a coherent current market and zero future market unless the TV set manufacturers get aboard.



It's going to take a coordinated effort from HDTV & antenna manufacturers, which I expect to see at some point in the near future.


----------



## JimP




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *01sporty* /forum/post/17057504
> 
> 
> I Tivo everything on a HR10-250 and my stations are in multiple directions so I needed a way to aim the antenna at the appropriate time.
> 
> 
> Well, It's not as smart as I would like, but here's how I made my antenna smarter than most. I started with a DB8 antenna and a Channel Master CM 9521A rotator. The rotator will aim to any pre-programmed direction via an IR remote.
> 
> 
> Then I picked up a Palm Treo on eBay and added Wawa software by Novii ( http://www.novii.tv/pocketpc/wawa/ ). The Palm is capable of sending and receiving IR and the software is designed to store IR signals and replay them at a designated time.
> 
> 
> So now, when I do a Season Pass that requires the antenna, I program the Palm to point the antenna to the correct station at the correct time and day.



...and when you want to record two programs in different directions?


----------



## 01sporty




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimP* /forum/post/17058294
> 
> 
> ...and when you want to record two programs in different directions?



That hasn't been an issue yet but I'd pick the one I like best and hope I get lucky on the other one.


----------



## 01sporty




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/17041957
> 
> 
> It's probably a local code requirement....and if you suffer lightning damage, the insurance
> 
> company can use it as justification for NOT PAYING....
> 
> 
> PS: Static electricity can build up on a low mounted antenna due to the WIND and can cause
> 
> damage to electrical gear at much lower voltages than associated with lightning:
> http://www.kilty.com/t_elec.htm
> http://www.concentratemedia.com/inno...arbor0063.aspx
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_electricity



I'll say. I was burning out surge protectors entirely too often. When I put up my OTA antenna I discovered the satellite installer hadn't put in any grounding at all.










Even if the work has been done by a 'professional', it doesn't hurt to inspect it.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> So now, when I do a Season Pass that requires the antenna, I program the Palm to point the antenna to the correct station at the correct time and day.



Alright. Thats pretty ingenious ! Where theres a will, theres a way, heh. A remote with a timer.



> Quote:
> ..and when you want to record two programs in different directions?



Two antenna setups ? (didnt say it was easy, heh)


----------



## rgharrin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/17047948
> 
> 
> Might be interference due to atmospheric conditions. With no information about your situation, we can only guess.
> 
> 
> Keep in mind that the "signal" meter displays the quality (decodability/lack-of-data-errors) of the date being received, not the strength of the signal. This quality can be degraded by a variety of things including interference and multi-path besides a lack of raw signal power.



I am 65 mi away, using Radio Shack VU 160

Last night the signal was 93-100%, still there was persistent audio and video hiccups.

I get a poor signal pointing at the station 353 degrees (TV Fool) and much better if pointing at 5 degrees (compass).

The cycling (0-75) signal strength occurs during the daytime, but some days the signal is stable.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ken H* /forum/post/17057895
> 
> 
> It's going to take a coordinated effort from HDTV & antenna manufacturers, which I expect to see at some point in the near future.



Ken,


You're way more optimistic than I am.


The CEA published the spec but their own members don't adhere to it.


Reminds me of the comment that a Best Buy buyer made regarding having their store-branded TVs implement the standard : "Hell, we can't even get our vendors to put the damn holes for the mounts in the right place on the rear panel!"


...


----------



## buritto

I'm thinking about getting a preamp, I have VERY strong signals on my Tivax but my Sammy 151 could be better, it's very good but I want it as strong as possible. I heard I can overload the signal. What does this mean and what does it look like. Can you overload a digital signal?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *buritto* /forum/post/17075937
> 
> 
> I'm thinking about getting a preamp, I have VERY strong signals on my Tivax but my Sammy 151 could be better, it's very good but I want it as strong as possible. I heard I can overload the signal. What does this mean and what does it look like. Can you overload a digital signal?



Yes, you can overload the turner. It usually will act much the same as if it had a weak signal but the actual display may vary according to the receiver.


Unless you are getting breakups, freezes, or dropouts, then don't screw with it. The signal only has to be "strong enough". There is no benefit in having more than is needed for stable operation.


----------



## buritto

Thanks, what about a regular amp does that screw with the system or is that easy for the tuner to handle?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *buritto* /forum/post/17076503
> 
> 
> Thanks, what about a regular amp does that screw with the system or is that easy for the tuner to handle?



Try to understand this:


Do NOT use an amplifier unless it is needed. Period.


----------



## hayj

So I went with the 91xg for the CW at ~50 miles. Got it yesterday and will mount it tomorrow on the same mast as the 4228 that points at the rest of my stations at 15 miles. Any advice on the setup. Right now the 4228 is pretty much at the top of the mast which is eave mounted. Everything comes in great now so I'm tempted to leave it and mount the 91xg under it. Will it matter?


----------



## holl_ands

To avoid amplifier "overload" (actually desensitization due to Intermod Noise),

you want to maximize the SFDR (Spurious Free Dynamic Range) wherein

the Intermod Noise is no higher than the Thermal Noise:
http://www.arl.army.mil/arlreports/2007/ARL-TR-4235.pdf 
http://www.odyseus.nildram.co.uk/Sys.../Linearity.pdf 


IMD and SFDR Calculations for several common Preamps can be found here:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota 


High Gain Preamps are suitable in RURAL locations....but check www.fmfool.com for nearby FM

transmitters and check www.tvfool.com to see if there is a Low Power TV nearby.

Low Gain Preamps are NOT suitable unless you are perhaps 10 miles away from towers (or indoors).

And if you are within a few miles of a transmitter, consider inserting a small amount

of attenuation (e.g. first try the 4 dB loss in a typical RF Splitter).


Since Intermods primarily occur on specific channels (3rd order is spread 3 channels wide),

some people can push these general guidelines a wee bit more....checkout the IMD Calculator....


----------



## buritto

Let me tell you all my setup and maybe the extra info can help. I'm about 25 KM from all the towers in Detroit.


CM4221 plus HBU33 on the roof each connected with about 3 feet rg6 into a splitter/combiner (radio shack).


Then into at least 60 feet rg59, split into a three way common splitter in the house.


One sent to a tivax about with about 15 feet rg6 and other with 25 feet rg6 to a sammy 151.


The third tv will soon be connected via 40 feet of rg6 also with a wall plate connection. The sammy is the issue it's older and hard to get a lock on some channels.


I'll check out those links in teh mean time thanks. EDIT links don't work for me.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *buritto* /forum/post/17080061
> 
> 
> CM4221 plus HBU33 on the roof each connected with about 3 feet rg6 into a splitter/combiner (radio shack).



Which directions are the two antennas aimed?


----------



## Sammer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *buritto* /forum/post/17080061
> 
> 
> Let me tell you all my setup and maybe the extra info can help. I'm about 25 KM from all the towers in Detroit.
> 
> CM4221 plus HBU33 on the roof each connected with about 3 feet rg6 into a splitter/combiner (radio shack).
> 
> Then into at least 60 feet rg59, split into a three way common splitter in the house.
> 
> One sent to a tivax about with about 15 feet rg6 and other with 25 feet rg6 to a sammy 151.
> 
> The third tv will soon be connected via 40 feet of rg6 also with a wall plate connection. The sammy is the issue it's older and hard to get a lock on some channels.



With the three way splitter and that much cable (especially the RG59) something like the Winegard HDP269 pre-amp with 12dB gain might be a good match.


----------



## buritto

Tower Guy,


Both are pointed in the same direction.


Sammer,


Thanks I'll look into that preamp.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I get a poor signal pointing at the station 353 degrees (TV Fool) and much better if pointing at 5 degrees (compass).



TVFool displays both the True and Magnetic headings. So if using a compass, use the Magnetic headings. Keep in mind, most cheap compasses havent been properly compensated and keep it some distance from your body and metal surfaces.


> Quote:
> The cycling (0-75) signal strength occurs during the daytime, but some days the signal is stable.



Most likely the heating of the earth in front, causing fading. http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/fixes.html


----------



## rgharrin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17083265
> 
> 
> TVFool displays both the True and Magnetic headings. So if using a compass, use the Magnetic headings. Keep in mind, most cheap compasses havent been properly compensated and keep it some distance from your body and metal surfaces.
> 
> 
> Most likely the heating of the earth in front, causing fading. http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/fixes.html



Thanks for the info....much appreciated


----------



## Satcom15

A question for anyone in the group that might know: What affect does foliage have on reception? My thinking suggests that density of foliage, path length through it, type (conifer vs deciduous trees or dense shrubs for example), size and orientation of leaves, frequency (UHF is more affected than VHF), weather conditions (i.e. wet leaves from rain cause more problems that dry leaves?). Anything else? Are there any modeling studies out there that give guidelines on anticipated loss for path lengths through certain types of foliage?


I was wondering about this as I drove around town contemplating purchasing a house and saw all the homes with trees around them, some of which were blocking views of our local antenna farm. Makes me think adding trees and plants into the decision matrix might be prudent. They could screen an antenna from public sight if there's a lot of grief over OTA antennas but at the same time negatively affect reception. Fortunately, I live in CO so its not like I'd have a long path through it. Still, it made me curious. Thoughts anyone?


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Satcom15* /forum/post/17085332
> 
> 
> What affect does foliage have on reception? Are there any modeling studies out there that give guidelines on anticipated loss for path lengths through certain types of foliage?
> 
> 
> Thoughts anyone?



hdtv primer has a few things to say about trees and diffraction:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/glossaryR.html#trees 

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html 


The changing signal thru trees moving in the wind is a type of dynamic multipath problem which is much harder for a tuner to correct than a static multipath problem, as from a secondary signal reflected from a building. The more of the limited correction ability of the FEC (forward error correction) system that is used to correct increasing error rates (BER), the less that is available to correct errors from weak signals.


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/17085924
> 
> 
> hdtv primer has a few things to say about trees and diffraction:
> 
> 
> The changing signal thru trees moving in the wind is a type of dynamic multipath problem which is much harder for a tuner to correct than a static multipath problem, as from a secondary signal reflected from a building. The more of the limited correction ability of the FEC (forward error correction) system that is used to correct increasing error rates (BER), the less that is available to correct errors from weak signals.



Hmmm, that's an interesting thought rabbit. Could make for challenging reception. I guess the take away from this is: Avoid having foliage within line of sight.

Cheers.


----------



## holl_ands

Some info re Attenuation through Trees:
http://www.its.bldrdoc.gov/isart/art.../vog/vog_s.pdf 
http://www.micropath.net/pages/pathanal/foliage.htm 
http://awapps.commscope.com/search/bn_TP-100328-EN.aspx


----------



## hayj

Are there any rules against offering an antenna for sale on this forum? Looked in the FAQ but couldn't find anything.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hayj* /forum/post/17087773
> 
> 
> Are there any rules against offering an antenna for sale on this forum? Looked in the FAQ but couldn't find anything.



Go here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/vbclassified.php


----------



## kdulaney

From the www.sutrotower.com website .... for those hoping to see improved digital coverage in the Bay Area.


The eleven television stations at Sutro Tower currently broadcast in both the analog and digital format. The Sutro Tower analog antennas are currently located at the top of the transmission tower and the interim digital antennas are located at a lower elevation on the tower, a less optimal position for best coverage of the service area. Currently, there is no back-up facility for digital transmission should maintenance be required on the primary antenna. The conversion project will locate the primary digital antennas in a more favorable position at the tower top, and provide back-up facilities for digital transmission.


A new digital auxiliary antenna will be installed between the 380 ft. and 560 ft. elevation on the tower. It will consist of two identical antennas each serving 5 stations. A third back-up antenna will be installed at the 180 ft. level for the remaining station.


The existing analog antennas at the top of the tower will be removed and replaced with six new digital main antennas. One will serve four stations, one will serve three stations and the other four will serve one station each.


Combining equipment to facilitate main and auxiliary antenna sharing will be installed. A new roof top enclosure will be constructed to accommodate the combining equipment for the new system.


The existing interim digital antenna will be removed.


The tower structure will be reinforced in selected location to accommodate the new antennas and to upgrade the structure to current wind and seismic codes for essential facilities.



Work, which began in mid-January 2009, is anticipated to take approximately 8-10 months.

Sequence of work will be as follows:


1.Reinforce tower to accommodate new digital auxiliary antennas--Complete

2.Construct roof top equipment enclosure--Complete

3.Install digital auxiliary antennas--Complete

4.Reinforce tower to accommodate new digital main antennas--Complete

5.Remove old KGO, KBCW, and KOFY analog antennas from South mast--Complete

6.Install new KGO and KBCW digital antnenas on South mast--Complete

7.Remove old KTVU, KRON, and KPIX antennas from West mast--Complete

8.Install new lattice tower to 918 feet on West Mast--Complete

9.Install new KTVU, KRON, and KPIX digital antenna on West mast--Scheduled week of 8/24

10.Install new KOFY digital antenna on West mast--Scheduled week of 8/24

11.Remove old KQED, KMTP, KFSF, and KOIT analog antennas from North mast--Scheduled week of 9/28

12.Remove old North mast support down to 792 feet--Scheduled week of 9/28

13.Install new KQED, KMTP, KCNS, and KCSM digital antenna to top of new North mast--Scheduled week of 10/5

14.Install new KFSF digital antenna on side of new North mast--Scheduled week of 10/19

15.Re-install KOIT (FM) antnena on side of North mast--Scheduled week of 10/19

16.Remove temporary KOIT antenna--Scheduled week of 10/26

17.Test and begin operation of new digital antennas for all stations--Scheduled week of 10/26

18.Remove old analog auxiliary antennas

19.Remove old interim digital antennas


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kdulaney* /forum/post/17088815
> 
> 
> From the www.sutrotower.com website .... for those hoping to see improved digital coverage in the Bay Area.



I grew up in the Bay Area (Cupertino 50s-70s) and remember the brouhaha that went on over its construction. My grandma lived in SF (Mission District) and we'd often drive by there on the way to/from visiting. I always thought it was cool. But then, being a radio/electronics geek I think all antennas and aluminum forests are cool.









Cheers.


----------



## oldman9

I live in Eugene, Oregon.

I am having antenna issues.


We basically have two main transmitting hills, one 6 miles away at 9 degrees.

The other 4 miles away at 217 degrees.

There are hills and trees.

My house sits below street level but the roof mounted outdoor antenna, sits at about street level.

Currently using a Terrestrial DB2 mounted on a J-Type mast.


After the conversion, I lost the signal on my CBS station broadcasting on VHF channel 13 (217 degree heading)

Initially I thought it was because my DB2 wouldn't pick up VHF until today I realized that our ABC channel 9 is using VHF 9.(9 degree heading) I get an excellent signal from it and the NBC station at this heading.

The FOX station is at the 217 degree heading as well and I get about 70 on my antenna signal meter. Not as good as I would like but we deal with it.


I have been reading antenna info about the CM 4228HD because I thought it was a VHF/UHF issue until today.

Now I am really confused and could use some suggestions on What antenna.




Thanks!


----------



## vikingship

I need a uni-directional solution for a mountainous area. I am only 20 miles from the towers needed to receive all the networks 2.1 - 21.1. I tried a xg91 before realizing I would need more of a VHF type antenna. After carefully pointing it, I only had marginal signal levels and just 2 channels. Could the 2-edged path be the problem? After reading through this forum I think I might get by with a Winegard HD7694P and a CM7777. Before I order them I am hoping to get some input from the experts around here to find out if something else might be more appropriate. Thanks in advance.


Here is my TV Fool: tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dd5a0991ab1d1c5


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vikingship* /forum/post/17105272
> 
> 
> After reading through this forum I think I might get by with a Winegard HD7694P and a CM7777.



No, you won't. You have channels 2 and 5 which are low band VHF stations. The HD7694P is not a low band antenna.


Your stations are in two directions. Do you want a rotor or a custom designed combiner?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oldman9* /forum/post/17104335
> 
> 
> Now I am really confused and could use some suggestions on What antenna.



If you want one antenna plan on a rotor.


If you don't want a rotor you need two antennas and a combiner. It's best if both antennas are rated for VHF/UHF.


There's a second PBS in a third direction. Do you want it too?


----------



## vikingship

Thanks Tower Guy - I only need the stations from one direction(140). The others are duplicates. Channel 2 is the strongest and I don't need 5. Do you think I still would need a separate low band antenna, and if so should I just pair it with the xg91 and 7777? Would that be overloading from that close? Thanks again.


----------



## The Hound




> Quote:
> Channel 2 is the strongest and I don't need 5



You're pulling in 2 with a XG91, 2edge, 20 miles out?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vikingship* /forum/post/17105800
> 
> 
> I only need the stations from one direction(140).



OK, add a Y5-2-6 or CS600 to the 91XG and use the 7777 preamp or a Winegard AP2870 to add them togther.


----------



## vikingship

Thanks for the advice. I will be ordering the CS600 and 7777.


----------



## systems2000

Take a look at the Channel Master 3020 and pair it with the 7777.

*NOTE:* There is a member that is an hour South of me and I, who use the CM3020 for 2-edge, 60+ mile reception and find it does well.


----------



## hayj

So I got the XG91 mounted. It's a lot bigger than I thought it would be. I reduced my cable run through the attic so it's at about 20 ft. I'm trying for just WBKI (RF19) at 50 miles and combining it with a jointenna with everything else. I get a steady signal straight from the antenna to the hdhomerun, 60% signal strength and 75% signal quality. Once I combine the signals with the jointenna and split the signal for the two tuners, I get about 50% for both and no lock. At night I'm looking at it right now and I have a little over 60% and a lock. So I'm right at the cusp and it seems I have enough signal at the antenna with a high enough S/N to use a preamp, maybe a CM 7777. What do you think? It will only amplify the XG91 so I'm hoping it won't overload although I do see channel 26 on the back side at fairly high levels. Just out of curiosity, besides splitting the signal, are low noise and placement the only thing that usually separate a preamp from an distribution amplifier? Also, is it possible the CM 7777 has lower noise than the hdhomerun's internal gain and the noise floor be set by the cm 7777 and possibly be lowered? Am I totally off base? I have no idea what the noise level for the hdhomerun is.


I also noticed that if I swung my CM 4228 around it got a stronger signal from channel 19 although it fluctuated a bit while the 91XG held at nearly the same values. I was reading that the XG91 was more consistent with the signal in terms of getting a lock. Is this true? I was started to regret purchasing the XG91 over another 4228.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hayj* /forum/post/17138468
> 
> 
> So I'm right at the cusp and it seems I have enough signal at the antenna with a high enough S/N to use a preamp, maybe a CM 7777. What do you think?



I think the the 7777 has more gain than you need. The HDP-269 has less gain, roughly the same noise figure, and is far more resistant to overload.


The HDP-269 will improve your signal in many ways;


Eliminate the loss of 20' of RG-6.

Minimize any impedance mismatch losses.

Overcome the loss of the Jointenna.

Overcome the loss of the splitter.

Eliminate the losses of the jumper cables.

Have a lower noise figure than your tuner.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I was started to regret purchasing the XG91 over another 4228.



For RF channel 19, the Winegard PR-8800 would have been the better choice. http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17148638
> 
> 
> For RF channel 19, the Winegard PR-8800 would have been the better choice. http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html



Yeah, I saw that. Unfortunately Ant Online's return policy is essentially non-existent. Probably should have went with the Winegard and saved some money as well. I ordered the HDP-269 today and hopefully it will be here tomorrow and we'll see if everything works regardless. Is there anything to this notion that the XG91 will provide a more stable signal? Is this only valid close to the antenna? I wonder if the backside of an 8-Bay would have given me problems in the event of amplification, even with the HDP-269.


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17139933
> 
> 
> The HDP-269 will improve your signal in many ways;
> 
> 
> Have a lower noise figure than your tuner.



Just out of curiosity, when you mentioned this are you basing this on a noise figure you know for the hdhomerun or are you assuming in general, a good preamp will have lower noise in the amplification than any tuner. Also thanks for the advice.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hayj* /forum/post/17160627
> 
> 
> Just out of curiosity, when you mentioned this are you basing this on a noise figure you know for the hdhomerun or are you assuming in general, a good preamp will have lower noise in the amplification than any tuner. Also thanks for the advice.



Although RF CHIP manufacturers are making Noise Figure claims as low as 5 dB,

it probably doesn't include some of the essential stuff NOT in the chip.


Here are some ACTUAL Noise Figure measurements:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=974143 
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=879273 


The fol. chart should help compare the improvement w and w/o Preamp:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=888368 

The example assumes a (well above average) 6 dB N.F. Tuner. If it was connected
*DIRECTLY to the antenna, Total System N.F. = 6 dB* and if at the
*End of a 6 dB loss cable, Total System N.F. = 12 dB* (simple addition).


With a Preamp and 6 dB of "Gross Transmission Loss" after the Preamp (incl coax & splitters):
*Low-gain, high overload HDP-269, Total System N.F. = 4.5 dB.*
*High-gain, low overload CM-7777, Total System N.F. = 3.25 dB.*


When a mast-mounted Preamp is added, the calculation is fairly complex, since

the loss AFTER the Preamp (incl Tuner N.F.) is REDUCED by the Preamp Gain. So

high gain preamps would presumably be preferred....IFF you can maintain SFDR

(Spurious Free Dynamic Range)...better known as DON'T OVERLOAD IT:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota 


Which is why we keep saying BEWARE OF HIGH-GAIN PREAMPS IN URBAN/SUBURBAN AREAS....

And in the above example, the CM7777 was only 1.25 dB "better" Total N.F....

possibly at the expense of 10-20 dB higher Intermod Noise.....


----------



## David-the-dtv-ma




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/17163482
> 
> 
> Although RF CHIP manufacturers are making Noise Figure claims as low as 5 dB,
> 
> it probably doesn't include some of the essential stuff NOT in the chip.
> 
> 
> Here are some ACTUAL Noise Figure measurements:
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=974143
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=879273
> 
> 
> The fol. chart should help compare the improvement w and w/o Preamp:
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=888368
> 
> The example assumes a (well above average) 6 dB N.F. Tuner. If it was connected
> *DIRECTLY to the antenna, Total System N.F. = 6 dB* and if at the
> *End of a 6 dB loss cable, Total System N.F. = 12 dB* (simple addition).
> 
> 
> With a Preamp and 6 dB of "Gross Transmission Loss" after the Preamp (incl coax & splitters):
> *Low-gain, high overload HDP-269, Total System N.F. = 4.5 dB.*
> *High-gain, low overload CM-7777, Total System N.F. = 3.25 dB.*
> 
> 
> When a mast-mounted Preamp is added, the calculation is fairly complex, since
> 
> the loss AFTER the Preamp (incl Tuner N.F.) is REDUCED by the Preamp Gain. So
> 
> high gain preamps would presumably be preferred....IFF you can maintain SFDR
> 
> (Spurious Free Dynamic Range)...better known as DON'T OVERLOAD IT:
> http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota
> 
> 
> Which is why we keep saying BEWARE OF HIGH-GAIN PREAMPS IN URBAN/SUBURBAN AREAS....
> 
> And in the above example, the CM7777 was only 1.25 dB "better" Total N.F....
> 
> possibly at the expense of 10-20 dB higher Intermod Noise.....




I have had the best results by using a indoor distribution amp instead of a preamp. My antenna is in the attic so I just ran an ac drop cord from an outlet to near the antenna to power the amp. I ran the 300 ohm wire with 3 twist per foot a short distants to the amp. On the input of the amp I used a 300 to 75 ohm [slip on like are used on the back of the TVs to connect 300 one wire] transformer. From the amp down to the tv I used 75 ohm. The distribution amp are built to carry strong signals.


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/17163482
> 
> 
> Although RF CHIP manufacturers are making Noise Figure claims as low as 5 dB,
> 
> it probably doesn't include some of the essential stuff NOT in the chip.
> 
> 
> Here are some ACTUAL Noise Figure measurements:
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=974143
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=879273
> 
> 
> The fol. chart should help compare the improvement w and w/o Preamp:
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=888368



Awesome. Thanks for the links. I've been looking for this information. I didn't realize the noise on the tuner was so high. Silicon Dust responded to me with this for their signal quality measurement which I presume to be S/N.


8VSB: 50% = 16dB, 100% = 30dB


Am I to assume that with the hdp-269 I may gain ~3dB on the low end from the noise of the hdp-269 being lower and 12 dB on the high end from the gain for an overall gain of 15 dB in S/N, and if so can this figure be added to the 16 dB, assuming I'm getting a 50% reading?


----------



## nwiser

Does anyone know if there is a specific antenna or brand in general that is more robust (weather/wind resistant) than most of the rest?


Also, why are Blonder Tongue antennas so much more expensive than most?


----------



## VGPOP

I decided to give this a try and I purchased the *Phillips SDV2740* indoor antenna.


When I do an "auto program" (or scan). It only finds two channels.


Univision 26-1, and Telefutura 26-2.


And the signal is really bad. Only 3-5 bars (out of 10).


I don't know if this the correct thread to ask. But I want to find out if people purchased the same antenna and what they did to fix it.


My TV is Samsung LN46A630.


Tuners: NTSC / ATSC


----------



## The Hound

Go to TVFOOL.com and use the signal analysis tool button to get an availability report.

Post it here and people will be able to help you out on your reception problems.


----------



## SemiChemE

I'm looking for antenna recommendations for pulling in WRGB(6), which is about 65 miles away. I currently have an old Taco antenna in my attic that grabs a watchable signal about 30% of the time. Is there anything out there that can do better or am I already doing about as well as I can hope? This antenna appears to be a 9-element Yagi. It has a 106-inch boom and the elements are of various sizes with the longest at ~110-inches. It is a very odd antenna with loops in the middle or at the ends of some of the elements. Prior to the switch, the best reception was on Ch2. It did OK on 9, but poorly on 11 and 13, so I assume the antenna was optimized for Low-VHF.


Ideally, I want an antenna that can pull in 6-13, since I have stations on 6,7,11,12, and 13. Since this is for an attic mount, I really can't go any bigger than the existing antenna. I'd even like to be a bit smaller, which seems possible since I don't need gain on 2-5 (longer wavelengths). Any suggestions?


----------



## SemiChemE

In addition to the 6-13 VHF antenna I mentioned above, I am also considering a YA-1713 to pull in channels 7, 11, 13 from New York City (65 miles away and 180 degrees from the Albany stations of 6, 7, 12). I would most likely connect this with an A-B switch feeding into a CM7777 pre-amp (where it is combined with my UHF antenna), but I was curious if there would be any way to connect in multiple channels from each antenna using a jointenna or something similar?


----------



## The Hound

Hi Semi,

YOu may have better luck posting in the Albany thread.

There are a couple of people in poughkeepsie over there having issues with WRGB 6.

Some have reliable signals now.

Have you looked at your TVFOOL report, to see what you can expect to receive?


----------



## VGPOP




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *The Hound* /forum/post/17194023
> 
> 
> Go to TVFOOL.com and use the signal analysis tool button to get an availability report.
> 
> Post it here and people will be able to help you out on your reception problems.



This is my report based on TV FOOL

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8ecdf8713064af 


I live in an apartment complex, 1st floor (of three stories). My room window and balcony in the living room face WEST.


----------



## gbynum




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *VGPOP* /forum/post/17194966
> 
> 
> This is my report based on TV FOOL
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8ecdf8713064af
> 
> 
> I live in an apartment complex, 1st floor (of three stories). My room window and balcony in the living room face WEST.



The channel you are getting is northeast of you ... strange you wouldn't do better than that with all of those strong signals in the air.


At the least (and I'm sure you've tried already), I'd rotate the antenna a quarter turn and try again.


Metal and plaster used in construction, and the new low heat transfer windows, often are very effective in blocking signals. The next thing I'd try is sticking the antenna out the window and scanning again ... perhaps not permanently, but for a test.


Do you know if you have neighbors with good signals? What is their technique?


Good luck!


----------



## SemiChemE




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *The Hound* /forum/post/17194712
> 
> 
> Hi Semi,
> 
> YOu may have better luck posting in the Albany thread.
> 
> There are a couple of people in poughkeepsie over there having issues with WRGB 6.
> 
> Some have reliable signals now.
> 
> Have you looked at your TVFOOL report, to see what you can expect to receive?



Yeah, I've been following and have posted on the Albany thread and am pretty familiar with what the signal strength is like in my area. However, my remaining question is more antenna specific. Basically, what are the best Antennas for Channel 6 and will any of them fit into a 12'x10' space? Also, it would be nice to know what kind of gain I am getting on my current antenna, since I'd hate to spend $100+ on a monster antenna that really didn't do any better on Channel 6.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SemiChemE* /forum/post/17194554
> 
> 
> IIdeally, I want an antenna that can pull in 6-13,



You won't find such a beast, because the VHF-LO (2-6) and VHF-HI (7-13) bands are distinct, and widely separated. Channels 6 and 7 are about three times further apart than 2 and 6 are. See for example the table at

http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/catv-ch.html


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/17199393
> 
> 
> You won't find such a beast, because the VHF-LO (2-6) and VHF-HI (7-13) bands are distinct, and widely separated. Channels 6 and 7 are about three times further apart than 2 and 6 are.



The new CM Advantage combos might fit the bill, but I have yet to see one or hear of anyone who has one:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=CM-2018 


They are wide enough to support FM, or so they have told me, but I have no verification of this.


----------



## SemiChemE




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/17199393
> 
> 
> You won't find such a beast, because the VHF-LO (2-6) and VHF-HI (7-13) bands are distinct, and widely separated. Channels 6 and 7 are about three times further apart than 2 and 6 are. See for example the table at
> 
> http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/catv-ch.html



Of course you're right that VHF-Lo and Hi are widely separated, but people still design and sell VHF antennas intended to pick up both bands (2-13). You'd think that since post-transition, channels 2-5 are virtually non-existent, someone would modify one of these designs for 6-13. Such an antenna should be ~30% smaller and would likely provide better gain on channel 6. Of course given that there are only something like 40 stations broadcasting on Channel 6, maybe it's not worth the effort?


On a related note, if I tried cutting the longest elements on my existing antenna, which appear to be about 107" (close to the Ideal Dipole for Channel 2) down to 71" (Ideal Dipole for Channel 6) would I expect to see an improvement in gain for channel 6? Would I lose gain on the higher channels or would they be unaffected?


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SemiChemE* /forum/post/17200841
> 
> 
> Of course you're right that VHF-Lo and Hi are widely separated, but people still design and sell VHF antennas intended to pick up both bands (2-13). You'd think that since post-transition, channels 2-5 are virtually non-existent, someone would modify one of these designs for 6-13.



For the record there are only 9 stations on Ch 6 and 17 on Ch 5. Heck I have TWO channel 5s in my state. So if one were to modify for 6 they might as well modify for 5.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Excerpted from Falcon_77's spreadsheet (posted on rabbitears.info). The last line was added to highlight the relevant post-transition VHF low allocations.



> Quote:
> Full Power Stations by Channel
> 
> 
> Analog DTV Total *DTV
> 
> Pre-Trans*Pre-Trans*Pre-Trans*Post Trans*Avg*Avg
> 
> ch # # # # CH ERP Band ERP # of ch st/channel # of stations
> 
> 2 59 9 68 6 11.0
> 
> 3 62 4 66 7 19.3
> 
> 4 63 6 69 2 54.6
> 
> 5 56 9 65 16 33.1
> 
> 6 62 1 63 9 12.3 23.8 5 8 40
> 
> ...............^ # of DTV stations per channel



Based on those numbers, it would be pretty pointless for a manufacturer to make the suggested modification.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/17200404
> 
> 
> The new CM Advantage combos might fit the bill, but I have yet to see one or hear of anyone who has one:
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=CM-2018
> 
> 
> They are wide enough to support FM, or so they have told me, but I have no verification of this.



It's odd. Channel Master calls the 2018 a U/V/FM antenna, but then doesn't rate the low band gain.
http://www.channelmaster.com/support...%20Guide29.pdf 


The longest element should barely work on channel 6 and FM, but not so much on 2-5.


----------



## SemiChemE

OK, so the 40 station number I remembered was for the entire VHF-Lo band, not just channel 6. So, it might be a stretch to tailor an antenna specifically for the Ch 6 market. However, between channels 5 and 6 there are a total of ~36 million viewers, which is a larger market than all of Canada. Such an antenna would still be 25% smaller than a corresponding 2-13 antenna.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SemiChemE* /forum/post/17199087
> 
> 
> Yeah, I've been following and have posted on the Albany thread and am pretty familiar with what the signal strength is like in my area. However, my remaining question is more antenna specific. Basically, what are the best Antennas for Channel 6 and will any of them fit into a 12'x10' space? Also, it would be nice to know what kind of gain I am getting on my current antenna, since I'd hate to spend $100+ on a monster antenna that really didn't do any better on Channel 6.



Antennacraft Y5-2-6. 112" X 80" 4.9 db gain. $29.99 plus shipping. Use a HLSJ to add it to your other antennas.

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=Y5-2-6 
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=HLSJ


----------



## nybbler




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SemiChemE* /forum/post/17200841
> 
> 
> Of course you're right that VHF-Lo and Hi are widely separated, but people still design and sell VHF antennas intended to pick up both bands (2-13). You'd think that since post-transition, channels 2-5 are virtually non-existent, someone would modify one of these designs for 6-13.



Dual-band VHF antennas typically rely on the 3:1 relationship between the two bands; e.g. a dipole or dipole array which works for 60Mhz will also work at 180Mhz. You can't use that trick to get part of the low band and all of the high band.


You could build specific market antennas for some markets -- e.g. an antenna for Channel 6 and Channel 12 for Philadelphia, but there probably isn't much of a market for them.


----------



## Colm

Blonder Tongue makes them. Quite pricey though...


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/17203835
> 
> 
> Blonder Tongue makes them. Quite pricey though...



You weren't kidding about "pricey". I wonder if any ham or commercial antenna vendors out there will work with you to build a custom antenna (i.e. a Ch 6 antenna) at a reasonable cost. Force 12 and antenex (Laird) immediately come to mind, I'm sure there are others. Might be worth a call to find out. Just a suggestion.


Cheers.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kdulaney* /forum/post/17088815
> 
> 
> From the www.sutrotower.com website .... for those hoping to see improved digital coverage in the Bay Area.



Two out of the three masts have been finished and the crew is working on the third mast now.


If you're interested in seeing the progress on the Sutro Tower project, check out the photos on my web site:
http://www.larrykenney.com/sutrotwr.html 


Larry

SF


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/17212109
> 
> 
> Two out of the three masts have been finished and the crew is working on the third mast now.
> 
> 
> If you're interested in seeing the progress on the Sutro Tower project, check out the photos on my web site:
> http://www.larrykenney.com/sutrotwr.html
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF



Very nice pictures! Seeing the workers on the tower highlights the scale (i.e. how big it is). I imagine they are doing work with active transmitters nearby. If so, that's a lot of RF radiation up there. I wonder how that fits into the non-ionizing radiation exposure limits published in FCC OET 65. Leaving aside working at that height, definitely not something I'd want to do.










BTW do you know if the workers often find themselves above the fog layer? Years ago the a prof of mine in the San Jose State meteorology department had instrumented the tower as part of a research project. As I recall, the temperature difference could be quite remarkable from base (cool) to top (warm) when the marine layer was strong.


Cheers


----------



## onezero

I live in Central Jersey and put up a Winegard YA-1713. I have it pointed a NYC at 90deg Mag and it picks up WPVI ABC Ch 6 Philadelphia at 230 deg Mag almost as strong as WABC Ch 7 NYC. NYC is 34 miles away, Philly is 54 miles. My Winegard HD-9022 pointed at NYC picks up most of the Philly UHF as well.


My point is, Winegard YA-1713's ARE VHF 6-13 antennas.


OZ


----------



## SemiChemE




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *onezero* /forum/post/17213857
> 
> 
> I live in Central Jersey and put up a Winegard YA-1713. I have it pointed a NYC at 90deg Mag and it picks up WPVI ABC Ch 6 Philadelphia at 230 deg Mag almost as strong as WABC Ch 7 NYC. NYC is 34 miles away, Philly is 54 miles. My Winegard HD-9022 pointed at NYC picks up most of the Philly UHF as well.
> 
> 
> My point is, Winegard YA-1713's ARE VHF 6-13 antennas.
> 
> 
> OZ



Well, my new YA-1713 should be here on Tuesday, so I hope you are right! I'm a little skeptical that it will outperform my existing VHF antenna on Channel 6, but it should do better on the higher frequencies. If it does do better on 6 that would be great, as I can then aim it at Albany to get 6,7, and 12 and point my existing Antenna at NYC, where I already know I can get 11 and 13. Not sure why I haven't been able to get WABC. I kind of hope my antenna has a notch at 7. If not it's probably due to interference between WXXA-7 and WABC-7, which might mean I won't be able to get either.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SemiChemE* /forum/post/17214669
> 
> 
> It's probably due to interference between WXXA-7 and WABC-7, which might mean I won't be able to get either.



Consider stagger stacking to get either channel 7. www.anarc.org/wtfda/stagger.pdf


----------



## Satcom15

This may not be the right thread, so if it isn't please let me know of a better one. Anyway, I borrowed a spectrum analyzer from work and scanned the TV frequency spectrum in Colorado Springs. Pictures and text are at this link:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...pp=30&page=209 


Thought the group might be interested to see an example of what is really being received at the physical (RF) layer.









Cheers.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Satcom15* /forum/post/17212742
> 
> 
> Very nice pictures! Seeing the workers on the tower highlights the scale (i.e. how big it is). I imagine they are doing work with active transmitters nearby. If so, that's a lot of RF radiation up there. I wonder how that fits into the non-ionizing radiation exposure limits published in FCC OET 65. Leaving aside working at that height, definitely not something I'd want to do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW do you know if the workers often find themselves above the fog layer? Years ago the a prof of mine in the San Jose State meteorology department had instrumented the tower as part of a research project. As I recall, the temperature difference could be quite remarkable from base (cool) to top (warm) when the marine layer was strong.
> 
> 
> Cheers



The stations are now having to switch to the auxiliary antennas during the day when the crew is working on the Northeast mast since they're closer to the temporary UHF antennas that are normally used. When they were working on the West mast, they were far enough away that they didn't have to switch. So they are watching levels up there!


As for the fog layer... I don't know.


Glad you enjoyed the pics.


Larry

SF


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Satcom15* /forum/post/17208906
> 
> 
> You weren't kidding about "pricey". I wonder if any ham or commercial antenna vendors out there will work with you to build a custom antenna (i.e. a Ch 6 antenna) at a reasonable cost. Force 12 and antenex (Laird) immediately come to mind, I'm sure there are others. Might be worth a call to find out. Just a suggestion.
> 
> 
> Cheers.



There are several cut to channel/freq yagis made..some more expensive than others (Google "cut to frequency yagi" or "cut to channel yagi" and you'll find them)....Anything made for 6 and up (LPDA type) would also cover the FM band as well as aircraft (though aircraft are vertical and not horizontal like TV/FM usually is)..Using a 60Mhz antenna on 180Mhz wont work unless you are talking simple dipole...a yagi's pattern is distorted bigtime when used on the 3rd harmonic..the elements are not spaced properly (0.25 wavelength spacing is a sweet spot..but 3rd harmonic has them 3 times distant..thus blowing any decent pattern)


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> put up a Winegard YA-1713. I have it pointed a NYC at 90deg Mag and it picks up WPVI ABC Ch 6 Philadelphia



Channel 6 in Philly isnt really a good example to test out a vhf-low antenna. Theyve quadrupled their power. I can get it most of the time with a reflectorless SBGH from 61 miles away, that technically has high negative net gain on channel 6. So while the antenna may work for channel 6 in Philly, it may be miserable for channel 6 elsewhere.

Even with that power increase, that station still has issues covering its area that analog did fine.


----------



## SemiChemE

Well, I got my new YA-1713 last night and so far it's a bust...


In preliminary testing, I couldn't get anything from NYC or Albany. Of course atmospherics or other factors may have been working against me, so I need to do more tests before I completely throw in the towel. Last night, my old Antenna was pulling in WRGB(6) pretty well, but got nothing for WXXA(7) and only the smallest blip for WNYT(12), so perhaps there wasn't much signal around in the 7-13 range. I didn't get a chance to point my old antenna toward NYC, where in the past WPIX(11) and WNET(13) have been relatively strong, so perhaps those signals were down last night as well.


Anyway, it seems pretty clear that the YA-1713 is less powerful than my old Taco antenna even in the 7-13 range. This suggests that the only consumer-grade alternatives that are likely to outperform the Taco on VHF are the behemoth combos like the CM3671B or the Winegard 8200U, both of which are >$100 and neither of which will fit in my attic! Even these may not do much better as they have only 2-3db more gain than the YA-1713.


My last hope is to scavenge some elements from an old Channel-cut FM antenna that I have lying around, cut them down to size, and extend the boom of the YA-1713. According to hdtvprimer, this could get me another 3-4 db or so. We'll see.


----------



## onezero




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SemiChemE* /forum/post/17233482
> 
> 
> Well, I got my new YA-1713 last night and so far it's a bust...



Sorry to hear that. If you really wanted ch 6, the antennna should be OUTSIDE. I didn't realize you were going for an attic mount.


Here's mine - pointed at NYC picking up Phily CH 6 54 miles the other direction:




OZ


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *onezero* /forum/post/17237265
> 
> 
> Sorry to hear that. If you really wanted ch 6, the antennna should be OUTSIDE.



It will more than likely need to be outside for 7-13 as well. 65-70 miles is about the limit for reliable reception given the low digital power levels you are dealing with.


SemiChemE, did you try just one tuner with no splits or pre-amp?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *onezero* /forum/post/17237265
> 
> 
> If you really wanted ch 6, the antennna should be OUTSIDE.



He said that 6 is already working in the attic.


----------



## kevm14

Maybe you guys can help me.


I've been in my house for 2 years and only recently decided to use the antenna mounted on the roof for ATSC in Media Center. I recently removed the old 300-ohm twin lead and installed quad shield RG-6 coax with compression F connectors and a balun at the antenna. It goes into a Pinnacle 800e USB ATSC tuner. I am looking to move up to a dual tuner (Aver Duet) but I want to address some reception issues first.


Here is my TV Fool survey:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8ecd4ed4d356de 


My antenna looks equivalent to this: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...u=020572030168 


It is about 15' off the ground and the pole does not go into the ground.


I need to buy a compass but as far as I can tell by eye, my antenna is aimed roughly at the cluster of towers at 41° mag. I get all of the channels in this direction, except 50.1. I also get 5.1 and 2.1 @ 28° and 46.1 @ 53°. 28.1 @ 83° is marginal as is 38.1 @ 28°.


What I'd like is to fix the intermittent reception on 28.1 and 38.1 while not losing the Boston channels, 2.1, 5.1. And 69.1 (RF 17) @ 258° would also be desired, but I don't see how.


The real problem is 28.1 is off at 83°. And my antenna I think has about a 30° beam width, which is not wide enough to cover the 42° span between the channels I get strongly @ 41° and 28.1 @ 83°. Not to mention, turning the antenna might cause me to lose the 50 mile Boston stations @ 28°.


What are my options? I can't really go any higher due to the fact that my house is a ranch. Should I try to split the difference by aiming the antenna to around ~62°? Or should I go for something like this http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=CM-2018 

which promises a 45° beam width and 15 mile greater reception distance? Should I go with an amplifier to pull in off-axis stations?


Finally, I have a coax connector installation question. I had a heck of a time putting the connectors on. The inner foil kept getting pushed down when I tried to put the connector on and eventually I gave up at trying to get it perfect. The connector inside has partial foil all the way to the end of the dielectric and the one at the antenna is crushed all the way to the base of the F connector. After experimenting with a known good cable on the roof and laptop, I don't believe this is causing any problems at the frequencies involved. Can someone confirm or deny this?


----------



## SemiChemE




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *onezero* /forum/post/17237265
> 
> 
> Sorry to hear that. If you really wanted ch 6, the antennna should be OUTSIDE. I didn't realize you were going for an attic mount.
> 
> 
> Here's mine - pointed at NYC picking up Phily CH 6 54 miles the other direction:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OZ



Yeah, I had planned to move my antennas outside, but when I got them up on the roof my wife complained and made me take them down. At this point, if I can't get something that works in the Attic, I'll probably either just break down and pay for cable or do without.


----------



## SemiChemE




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/17237451
> 
> 
> It will more than likely need to be outside for 7-13 as well. 65-70 miles is about the limit for reliable reception given the low digital power levels you are dealing with.
> 
> 
> SemiChemE, did you try just one tuner with no splits or pre-amp?



So far, I've tried two configurations. First, with the YA-1713 mounted on it's own mast (actually a 6-ft step ladder) and connected with a 6-ft cable directly to the tuner (KWorld-UB435-Q). Second, with the YA-1713 mounted on the same mast as the Taco antenna and connected through a CM7777 pre-amp to a Venturer Set-top box. BTW, the Venturer box appears to be a re-branded version of the Winegard set-top box.


When I get a little more time, I'll do some more thorough testing, including recording the signal level from both Albany and NYC with the old antenna and then removing the old antenna and replacing it with the YA-1713 to see how it compares.


----------



## SemiChemE




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17238089
> 
> 
> He said that 6 is already working in the attic.



Well, sort of working... I get a solid watchable signal from WRGB(6) about 30% of the time (usually between 9pm and dawn). Unfortunately, WNYT (12) tends to be a bit weaker and WXXA(7) is rarely watchable. I expect this to improve significantly as the nights get longer and the leaves start to fall from the trees. If the FCC ever approves WRGB's and WNYT's applications to boost power, I should be in pretty good shape. The frustrating thing is that the Albany UHF stations come in great on my C4 antenna, but most of the major networks are on VHF.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17239701
> 
> 
> I recently removed the old 300-ohm twin lead and installed quad shield RG-6 coax with compression F connectors and a balun at the antenna...... Should I go with an amplifier to pull in off-axis stations?



Replacing the 300-twin lead with RG6 is a good start because the coax is less affected by changes in the weather. But, coax has a higher loss than the twin lead: about 6 dB per 100 ft for UHF. How long is your coax downlead?


A preamp at the antenna will makeup for the signal loss in the downlead, but it is not a good solution for off axis-aim of the antenna because off-axis aim increases the multipath reflection errors for the desired station which makes it harder for your tuner to lock on to the signal, especially when the signal is weak to start with.


> Quote:
> What I'd like is to fix the intermittent reception on 28.1 and 38.1 while not losing the Boston channels, 2.1, 5.1. And 69.1 (RF 17) @ 258° would also be desired, but I don't see how.



How would you feel about using a rotator to optimize antenna aim? If you don't want a rotator and still want 69.1 you could have a 2nd antenna aimed at it and use a A/B switch.


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/17240261
> 
> 
> Replacing the 300-twin lead with RG6 is a good start because the coax is less affected by changes in the weather. But, coax has a higher loss than the twin lead: about 6 dB per 100 ft for UHF. How long is your coax downlead?



Hmm, I didn't actually realize it had greater loss. I assume there was a net gain by replacing the old twin lead, though. Or I'd like to assume so.


The length is probably 60 to 70 feet. I could shorten it by maybe 10 feet. I left some extra in the garage.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/17240261
> 
> 
> A preamp at the antenna will makeup for the signal loss in the downlead, but it is not a good solution for off axis-aim of the antenna because off-axis aim increases the multipath reflection errors for the desired station which makes it harder for your tuner to lock on to the signal, especially when the signal is weak to start with.
> 
> 
> How would you feel about using a rotator to optimize antenna aim? If you don't want a rotator and still want 69.1 you could have a 2nd antenna aimed at it and use a A/B switch.



Yeah that makes sense about the amp.


Unfortunately I think a rotator is not in the cards as I can't really justify the expense, inconvenience - plus I'm using media center for my DVR so I don't see that working out.


What about adding the second antenna but using a signal combiner? 69.1 is only 20 miles and I got partial reception on the roof with a simple telescoping antenna that came with the USB ATSC tuner. Does that mean anything? It's about 180d off the 28.1 channel. Is there any way to get an antenna that has enough gain from the rear to pick up this station?


And what do you think about my current antenna in the context of my goals, as well as the replacement I linked to?


----------



## onezero




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17238089
> 
> 
> He said that 6 is already working in the attic.



Actually, I don't know if he is referring to the YA-1713 or not. First he says:


"my old Antenna was pulling in WRGB(6) pretty well"


Then he says (about ch 6, no mention of the YA-1713):


"Well, sort of working... I get a solid watchable signal from WRGB(6) about 30% of the time (usually between 9pm and dawn)"


Whatever he means, what I said is relevant, if he wants a good signal (from either the old or new antenna), it should be outside.


That's my last 2 cents.


OZ


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17239701
> 
> 
> I need to buy a compass but as far as I can tell by eye, my antenna is aimed roughly at the cluster of towers at 41° mag.



You might try using google earth instead of a compass. You should be able to search for the towers in google earth and then draw a line from them, directly to the location of your antenna. Then it's just a matter of locating a visible reference or two on that line and pointing there. I found this much easier then using a hand held compass and translating where the compass was pointed to where the antenna points. Tvfool has links to the files that contain the transmitter placemarks and coverage.

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...id=15&Itemid=1


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17241614
> 
> 
> What about adding the second antenna but using a signal combiner? 69.1 is only 20 miles and I got partial reception on the roof with a simple telescoping antenna that came with the USB ATSC tuner. Does that mean anything? It's about 180d off the 28.1 channel. Is there any way to get an antenna that has enough gain from the rear to pick up this station?



First try picking up 69.1 off the back of your present antenna or the CM antenna like it. If that doesn't work try a combiner for two antennas, one of which is for UHF 17 aimed at 69.1. When you use a combiner, the two signals from the same station might interfere with each other. If so, go with the A/B switch or add a filter such as a jointenna for channel 17 which will pass 17 but block the rest of the channels on one port and block 17 and pass the rest on the other port to avoid the interaction. The third port is the combination of the other two.


> Quote:
> What are my options? I can't really go any higher due to the fact that my house is a ranch. Should I try to split the difference by aiming the antenna to around ~62°? Or should I go for something like this http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=CM-2018
> 
> which promises a 45° beam width and 15 mile greater reception distance? Should I go with an amplifier to pull in off-axis stations?



I'm skeptical about a manufacturer claiming that an antenna has wider beamwidth and geater gain because the two are mutually exclusive. An antenna must have narrower beamwidth to have greater gain. Perhaps they were quoting the VHF-hi section beamwidth as the beamwidth for the antenna even though the UHF beamwidth might be different.


The 2018 is suitable for your situation, but sometimes, because of so many factors, you just have to try it.


When I was a kid my father to me to my first stock car race at Kingston. We had relatives in Weekapaug (they had more money than we had).


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hayj* /forum/post/17243429
> 
> 
> You might try using google earth instead of a compass.



I actually did that using the FCC maps site and that's how I can tell it's pointed in roughly the right direction. But in my area, it is very hard to locate landmarks because of the dense pine trees overhead. I bought a compass today at Expensive Mountain Supplies and will give it a try.


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/17244427
> 
> 
> First try picking up 69.1 off the back of your present antenna or the CM antenna like it.



That doesn't really work currently. It worked better with the cheap telescoping metal antenna that came with the USB tuner (on the roof, mind you). But perhaps if I aim my antenna to split the difference between 28.1 and the rest, the rear will be closer to pointing at 69.1.



> Quote:
> If that doesn't work try a combiner for two antennas, one of which is for UHF 17 aimed at 69.1.



That sounds awesome. I wonder if I could get away with a really simple antenna just aimed correctly since all I need is 69.1 in that direction. I'll look those guys up and see what they have, if I decided to go that route.


EDIT: I looked into the jointenna product. It says there is significant attenuation for channels directly adjacent to the blocked channel. 69.1 is RF 17. I have a 50 mile Boston PBS at RF 19 and the Boston ABC I don't want to lose at RF 20 (though I have RI PBS and RI ABC available). 21 is a RI PBS and 22 is the 28.1 that I am trying to receive stronger. Are any of these in danger of being attenuated with the jointenna?



> Quote:
> I'm skeptical about a manufacturer claiming that an antenna has wider beamwidth and geater gain because the two are mutually exclusive. An antenna must have narrower beamwidth to have greater gain. Perhaps they were quoting the VHF-hi section beamwidth as the beamwidth for the antenna even though the UHF beamwidth might be different.



Well I think it's a larger piece (EDIT: actually it isn't), and since it's "HD" it goes from 7-69 rather than 2-69, so perhaps losing the lower VHF band will increase the gain on the rest of the channels? I don't know anything about antenna design though (despite being a EE). I also just realized that perhaps the HD designation means the range specification is given in terms of the digital transition. All I really need is the gain plots to know for sure.



> Quote:
> The 2018 is suitable for your situation, but sometimes, because of so many factors, you just have to try it.



Yeah it's cheap enough. Is there any reason, other than lightning grounding, to put the pole all the way into the ground?


Also I thought more about the foil shielding question on the F connectors. I think any loss I am seeing is due to the loss of the cable itself, compared to the 8 footer I was using on the roof. So I guess re-terminating wouldn't buy me anything except high blood pressure.



> Quote:
> When I was a kid my father to me to my first stock car race at Kingston. We had relatives in Weekapaug (they had more money than we had).



Kingston RI? I guess that's technically the South Kingstown area. I actually moved out this way in 2004. Born and raised in the greater Hartford, CT area prior to that.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Are any of these in danger of being attenuated with the jointenna?



Sometimes it works when adjacent channels are close, sometimes it doesn't. Each filter is designed for a section of the UHF band and must me tuned by a tech for the channel of interest before it is shipped to you. They don't always do a good job. Tinlee in Canada makes better filters, but they are more expensive----like about $100.


> Quote:
> All I really need is the gain plots to know for sure.



So do I, but I couldn't find them.


> Quote:
> Is there any reason, other than lightning grounding, to put the pole all the way into the ground?



Not that I know of, as long as your mast is supported securely enough to survive an ice storm and your grounding system meets the new NEC regulations. You wouldn't want to give your insurance company a reason to deny a claim if there was a problem.


----------



## kevm14

I forgot to mention there is also RF 13 and RF 12 that I can't lose. They are a little farther from RF 17 than the 19 to 22. Perhaps a unit tuned at 15 or 16 might work better since RF 12 and 13 should be fairly strong for me.


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/17245592
> 
> 
> Tinlee in Canada makes better filters, but they are more expensive----like about $100.



I would absolutely pay a premium for a better tuned filter, especially if it had a more narrow band cut range. I'll look them up.


----------



## rabbit73

Here's the Tin Lee link for you:
http://www.tinlee.com/index.php 
http://www.tinlee.com/Matv_filters.php?active=3 
http://www.tinlee.com/catv_filters.php?active=1 


I understand that their engineers are easy to talk to if you give them a call.


> Quote:
> I forgot to mention there is also RF 13 and RF 12 that I can't lose. They are a little farther from RF 17 than the 19 to 22. Perhaps a unit tuned at 15 or 16 might work better since RF 12 and 13 should be fairly strong for me.



RF 12 and 13 are in the VHF-hi (7-13) band. UHF starts at CH 14. There is a big frequency gap between 13 and 14 for OTA reception.
http://www.tinlee.com/FreqChart.php?active=


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/17245758
> 
> 
> Here's the Tin Lee link for you:
> 
> 
> I understand that their engineers are easy to talk to if you give them a call.
> 
> 
> RF 12 and 13 are in the VHF-hi (7-13) band. UHF starts at CH 14. There is a big frequency gap between 13 and 14.



Thanks I already found their website. I'll probably give them a call.


I just realized 12 and 13 are not in any danger. And that huge gap would allow me to get a filter that blocks 17 adequately from the primary antenna but doesn't hurt the Boston RF 19 and 20. 21 should be fairly strong but 22 is the off axis one that I am having problems with now. This could be dicey. I could just write off ION (RF 17) and focus on getting 28.1 while maintaining the Boston stations. I guess that is what I have to decide - can I lose a PBS and ABC that I already have RI versions of to gain an ION? The Boston ABC uses 1080i according to the silicon dust website, while the RI ABC uses 720p. Figures. I probably don't need two PBSs.


EDIT: I'm writing an e-mail to Tinlee and I just realized something. I need the RF 17 band pass on the secondary antenna so it doesn't pick up reflections on the stations the primary antenna receives. But I may not need an RF 17 cut on the primary antenna, because it doesn't really receive the channel anyway (due to being almost 180° off).


Also according to silicon dust, the 4 ION stations are either 480p or 480i...one of my driving points for this entire project was free HD so maybe I _should_ just write off ION (RF 17).


Don't mind me, just thinking out loud.


----------



## kevm14

Just found another good looking Channel Master antenna, the CM2020: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...u=020572030168 


This one promises an even 60mi VHF AND UHF, with the same can-it-be 45° beam width.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> It goes into a Pinnacle 800e USB ATSC tuner. I am looking to move up to a dual tuner (Aver Duet) but I want to address some reception issues first.



I forgot to ask you: Are you able to add another channel from a different direction after your initial scan without erasing the initial scan channels?


----------



## Dave Loudin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17245032
> 
> 
> I actually did that using the FCC maps site and that's how I can tell it's pointed in roughly the right direction. But in my area, it is very hard to locate landmarks because of the dense pine trees overhead. I bought a compass today at Expensive Mountain Supplies and will give it a try.



At TVfool, you can plot station azimuths on a Google satellite map (use "Start maps" option). If you can zoom in far enough, you can see pretty accurately how to aim based on landmarks.


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/17246915
> 
> 
> I forgot to ask you: Are you able to add another channel from a different direction after your initial scan without erasing the initial scan channels?



If you're not familiar with media center here's how Vista Media Center does it: there is an initial channel scan upon first initialization of a tuner. You are then advised to visit the signal strength test screen where it will loop through all available channels (available meaning they are known to the electronic program guide by your zipcode) and display signal strength in bars, 1 to 6. Generally I've found that anything 3 bars and below is probably marginal.


Inside the screen, you can check or uncheck individual channels which removes them from the EPG and stops scanning them on the loop. I can go back at any time and run this loop and uncheck or check different channels. I can also manually add a channel, which is the only way to add sub-channels in Vista Media Center. I think this is what you were asking but all I'd do based on what I mentioned above is go back into that scan screen and either check off channels I _think_ I might get now, or just check them all off and let it cycle through everything a couple times before I go back and remove the dead ones.


Windows 7 Media Center handles this WAAAAY better (including displaying the ATSC Vchan and subchannel in the correct format), as I am running Win 7 RC1 on a laptop and first tried the tuner on it, where it did a great job of finding the stations AND subchannels.


----------



## rabbit73

Thanks.

My knowledge of Media Center is very slight.


Do your tuners give bit errors as well as signal strength, and if so in what form?


I hope you will let us know how your project worked out.


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dave Loudin* /forum/post/17247135
> 
> 
> At TVfool, you can plot station azimuths on a Google satellite map (use "Start maps" option). If you can zoom in far enough, you can see pretty accurately how to aim based on landmarks.



I already had satellite map data. I'm saying in new england the tree density is just too high to locate anything meaningful on a map like that. Not to mention I can't really even see the street that the transmission path crosses.


Anyway, I just measured the antenna magnetic bearing. It is 47 degrees. Most of my channels are at 41d. 3 are at 28d (Boston, 50 miles). And 28.1, that I am working on, is at 83d (30 miles). Maybe I'll try moving the antenna 10-15 degrees to the right and hope I can gain 28.1 without losing the Boston stations at 28 degrees.


Or I'll get the CM2020 and hopefully get it all. And if I am REALLY super lucky, it will have a large enough gain section at the tail to receive 69.1 @ 257d, only 19 miles.


----------



## kevm14

Found some info.

http://www.starkelectronic.com/cm2018.pdf 

http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmant.htm 


Search the page for 2018 and 2020. There are some gain and beam width specs. I am going to make a rudimentary plot in Excel and see if anything jumps out at me. The beam width is given in terms of -3dB and F/B is the front to back ratio. It doesn't tell me the shape but perhaps it's the same width as the front, just less gain by the F/B column?




















If RF 22 is off axis from the others, which do I want? 2018 has a wider beam but 2020 has higher gain. Since RF 22 @ 83d is 30 miles and the Boston channels are at 28d, perhaps 2018 would actually be a better choice. They both lose about 15dB on the back. I wonder if that would leave me with enough on that RF 17 channel behind me.


Here is the composite plot of both antennas' beam width and gain. I think that the 2018 may be the superior choice because of its wider beam in the RF channels of interest. The strong ones I get at 41d are likely not an issue. If I want to get RF 22 @ 83d without losing RF 19 and 20 @ 28d, it seems the width of the 2018 would overrule the 2020's gain here. Thoughts?











Ok, last edit before bed.

Look at my TV fool survey again.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8ecd4ed4d356de 


There is both an ION (RF 32) and a CW (RF 41) @ 29d (more 50 mile Boston stations). Perhaps an alternate plan is use the narrower beam 2020 and point it between 28 and 41 and get everything. And bonus, Boston's ION is 720p according to the Silicon Dust website. Interesting.


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: For those of you contemplating using YA-1713 (Ch7-13) antenna to receive Ch6.

According to 4nec2 simulation runs, on Ch6 Raw Gain=2.5 dBi, F/B=0.4 dB and SWR=300

(using YA-1713 measurements from a year ago) or SWR=150 (per Ken Nist's file posted on
www.hdtvprimer.com several years ago).

The earlier YA-1713's had significantly different element spacings and diameters.


Below Ch6, the Gain remains above 2.0, but the SWR keeps climbing.....into the thousands....


So, yes it has some positive Gain, but doesn't suppress multipath coming from the rear

and has excessive SWR that could result in a null on Ch6 for certain cable lengths

(so add extra cable length until it goes away), but also causes lots of reflections up and down

a long coax, which looks like short delay multipath and can degrade Ch6 receptions (YMMV....)

Direct connect to a Preamp should minimize this latter problem if overload isn't an issue....


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/17244427
> 
> 
> I'm skeptical about a manufacturer claiming that an antenna has wider beamwidth and geater gain because the two are mutually exclusive. An antenna must have narrower beamwidth to have greater gain. Perhaps they were quoting the VHF-hi section beamwidth as the beamwidth for the antenna even though the UHF beamwidth might be different.
> 
> 
> The 2018 is suitable for your situation, but sometimes, because of so many factors, you just have to try it.



CM-2018 (et. al.) detailed specs are in the fol. catalog:
http://www.channelmasterintl.com/doc...a_20090417.pdf 

Note that 45-deg beamwidth applies to highest UHF channels, narrows down to 35-deg for mid-UHF,

widens out to 54-deg for low-UHF and widens even further (as expected) for Hi-VHF....


But are conveniently missing from where they should be (hidden actually) on the C-M website:
http://www.channelmaster.com/product...ID=32&catID=33 
http://www.channelmaster.com/support...%20Guide29.pdf


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/17249524
> 
> 
> But are conveniently missing from the C-M website:



I found this:

http://www.channelmasterstore.com/Pr...Show=TechSpecs 


Does anyone have any input on how the CM-2020 compares with the Winegard 7697 or 7698? Cost is not the concern...these are all cheap. I just want the superior product. Looking for gain and BW specs or a chart for the Winegard antennas. I'll post if I find anything, comparing them to the CM's.


EDIT. Done. Wow, the Winegard products appear to be noticeably superior to the Channel Master pair. With that much gain, am I at risk for tuner overloading for my 19 mile stations?


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17245126
> 
> 
> EDIT: I looked into the jointenna product. It says there is significant attenuation for channels directly adjacent to the blocked channel. 69.1 is RF 17. I have a 50 mile Boston PBS at RF 19 and the Boston ABC I don't want to lose at RF 20 (though I have RI PBS and RI ABC available). 21 is a RI PBS and 22 is the 28.1 that I am trying to receive stronger. Are any of these in danger of being attenuated with the jointenna?



I'm using a jointenna for channel 19 but still wanted 17. I tested the drop in signal level for 17 and found it to be roughly 9dB. I had enough signal so everything worked fine.


----------



## kevm14

I think I've devised a way to just use an antenna with good gain pointed in a narrow 13 degree beam to capture all the RI stations from 41d and hopefully all the Boston stations from 28-29d. Going by TV Fool, ION (RF 32) is 25.1NM and -65.7 for power, and this is the weakest station I would need to receive. According to the Feds, I am just on the edge of the map for this station, though I don't know what antenna height they assume.


I think I have the antenna choice narrowed down to either of the Winegards I posted. The 11 foot 7697P or 14 foot 7698P. The 7678P puts in its best showing over 7697P at, you guessed it, RF 32. It has 1.6dB over the 7697P at 32. Is that enough, considering the weakness of RF 32, to go with the 7698P or will I be totally fine with the 7697P?


What I am getting at is I think a 14 foot antenna on my roof might look pretty ridiculous but an 11 foot might be on the edge of kind of OK...but it would be a shame if the 7698P made the difference.


----------



## holl_ands

Winegard Antenna Specs:
http://www.winegarddirect.com/ 
http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload...duct%20Cat.pdf 
http://www.winegard.com/offair/antenna_list.php 


AntennaCraft Antenna Specs:
http://www.antennacraft.net/


----------



## Davird_Jr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17254160
> 
> 
> I think I've devised a way to just use an antenna with good gain pointed in a narrow 13 degree beam to capture all the RI stations from 41d and hopefully all the Boston stations from 28-29d. Going by TV Fool, ION (RF 32) is 25.1NM and -65.7 for power, and this is the weakest station I would need to receive. According to the Feds, I am just on the edge of the map for this station, though I don't know what antenna height they assume.
> 
> 
> I think I have the antenna choice narrowed down to either of the Winegards I posted. The 11 foot 7697P or 14 foot 7698P. The 7678P puts in its best showing over 7697P at, you guessed it, RF 32. It has 1.6dB over the 7697P at 32. Is that enough, considering the weakness of RF 32, to go with the 7698P or will I be totally fine with the 7697P?
> 
> 
> What I am getting at is I think a 14 foot antenna on my roof might look pretty ridiculous but an 11 foot might be on the edge of kind of OK...but it would be a shame if the 7698P made the difference.



I went from an 11 foot radio shack antenna to a 14 foot winegard and it doesn't look much different from the ground. My signal strength increased almost 5 fold with the biggest gains on channel 6. For low VHF bigger is almost always better. Superior design is important also and winegard has that in spades.


----------



## kevm14

True, but I've got something that looks like this:










I think I've decided on the 7697P, 11 foot, but I'm kinda hoping someone looks at my TV fool survey and can judge my potential reception from the towers at 28 to 41°, based on the antenna gain plots.


Speaking of which, where did they go?


Ah, permissions issue on my Gallery. Should be fixed now. You guys must have thought I was crazy. Well anyway, check out my gain and beamwidth plots.


----------



## kevm14

I ordered the WG-7697P. It cost me 2 months of analog expanded cable, or $106. TV Fool has me mostly confident that I'll be able to receive my blue area stations without a pre-amp from 15 feet. And without a pre-amp, I won't need to worry about overloading the tuner with the 19 mile stations. I'll report back how it all goes. I already know to expect the antenna to arrive somewhat compromised from shipping/poor packaging. Hope I can manage the install by myself. If not I'll bribe some friends...


I expect about 24 total channels when I am done. Getting about 12 now, plus 2 marginal ones. I also expect a full 12 of those 24 to be HD. Currently I get about 7 in HD, plus the 2 marginal ones.


----------



## onezero

kevm14,


I think you'll get more stations than you expect. I replaced my old antenna with a stacked HD-9022 and a YA-1713. I went from 28 ch (maybe 16 usable) to 52 with about 40 usable, though you need to speak Spanish or Korean for 1/3 of them. I also have a WD 8275 preamp on now. Here's how bad my area is:



OZ


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17258779
> 
> 
> Speaking of which, where did they go?



Many of us are still here, but if we don't have anything useful to say, we are quiet. Also, we don't want to give any bad advice. If we do, the Moderator or other regulars will shoot us down!


> Quote:
> Ah, permissions issue on my Gallery. Should be fixed now. You guys must have thought I was crazy. Well anyway, check out my gain and beamwidth plots.



Nice job on the plots. I enjoyed looking at your Gallery by going to the root URL.


> Quote:
> I think I've decided on the 7697P, 11 foot, but I'm kinda hoping someone looks at my TV fool survey and can judge my potential reception from the towers at 28 to 41°, based on the antenna gain plots.



You showed us your tvfool results and told us what channels you were interested in, you told us about your reception equipment, we talked about the possible options for you, and the appropiate antenna types. The _engineer_ in you has done a good job of analyzing the possibilities, now it is time for you to select an antenna and let the _technician_ in you test it out. When you are up there it might be interesting to temporarily swing your new antenna toward 69.1 (if you decide on a 2nd antenna just for 69.1, it will be a lot smaller being just for UHF).


The reason why you must be the final person to make the decision is because there are still some unique unknown factors at your location that would be difficult to analyze. The main one has to do with the fact that with digital, signal quality is just as important as signal strength while with analog, signal strength was all-important.


The digital tuner has an error correction system (FEC) that will correct a limited number of errors in the digital stream. Once that limit is reached, you will start to see tiles, picture freeze, and dropout when you are at the "digital cliff." Signal quality is measured by BER (bit error rate/ratio). The factors that increase BER and reduce signal quality are:


1. Improper signal level: A weak signal will cause a poor signal-to-noise ratio; a signal that is too strong can overload a tuner or preamp. A nearby FM transmitter can also cause overload, which would require an FM trap.

2. Reflections from multipath problems, static or dynamic.

3. Impulse noise in the reception area (worse on VHF).


It IS possible to have a strong but poor quality signal.


Now you know why (in post 10278) I asked about your tuner/software being able to give BER, in addition to strength. It would be useful if it also gave SNR, which should be at least 15.5 to 16 dB to obtain lock on a digital signal. I use the signal quality bar on my Apex DT502 CECB to tell me about signal quality which helps me to optimize antenna aim after first going for max signal strength.

What adds confusion to good reception is that some tuners are more tolerant of a poor quality signal than others as AntAltMike can attest:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...8&postcount=16 


Because my tuner is also my BER meter, the correlation is good.


Since I don't know your EE area of knowledge, I might be preaching to the choir. If so, sorry.


----------



## kevm14

Wow that is a bad area. What is your antenna height?


Also I looked up those antennas. They are pretty high gain. How much do you think you lose by splitting? And do you have them pointed in the same direction? You have a lot of stuff at 90d but not everything.


You know what else I realized...you probably don't need a fancy band pass/cut combiner. You might even be able to use a splitter backwards. What do you use?


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/17263024
> 
> 
> Many of us are still here, but if we don't have anything useful to say, we are quiet. Also, we don't want to give any bad advice. If we do, the Moderator or other regulars will shoot us down!



Actually that comment wasn't directed at a person. It was an expression of frustration because I loaded this thread this morning from work only to realize my plots weren't showing! They showed at home when I posted because I was signed into my Gallery as an admin but I forgot to turn on a setting that allows guests to view the original size of an image. I didn't mean to sound like I was whining or something.



> Quote:
> Nice job on the plots. I enjoyed looking at your Gallery by going to the root URL.



Thanks and thanks.



> Quote:
> The _engineer_ in you has done a good job of analyzing the possibilities, now it is time for you to select an antenna and let the _technician_ in you test it out. When you are up there it might be interesting to temporarily swing your new antenna toward 69.1.



I knew I was at that point and that is why I placed the order today. Good news, too - the antenna has shipped from Solid Signal and will arrive by wednesday!!


I know I get stuck in the research phase far too long but I have just been burned for what like seems over and over again for making decisions faster than I feel comfortable, only to lack the full comprehension of the situation. In many cases, I've found that if I was a little more patient I would have done a better job at whatever process or product is being discussed.



> Quote:
> The reason why you must be the final person to make the decision is because there are still some unique unknown factors at your location that would be difficult to analyze.



I do have a few trees very close to the antenna but I am hoping that by pointing the antenna to ~32-35d instead of 47d I will miss the big white pine trunk. There's a smaller tree that I can get rid of myself. I just had 4 giant white pines removed from my front yard 2 weeks ago, by the way.



> Quote:
> The digital tuner has an error correction system (FEC) that will correct a limited number of errors in the digital stream. Once that limit is reached, you will start to see dropout, tiles, and picture freeze. Signal quality is measured by BER (bit error rate). The factors that increase BER and reduce signal quality are:



I am using a USB tuner at the moment and will be upgrading to an internal PCIe card with a dual internal tuner when I build my HTPC. That's another reason why I am concerned. I guess if I had to add a preamp I will, especially if I end up missing one of the networks I don't have a duplicate of.


Generally, I think external consumer electronic set top tuners, as well as those built into newer TVs, are regarded as being more sensitive than the PC-based internal or external devices.


I have no way to determine signal strength (other than the 6 bars in Media Center), unless I find some software that I can download and use independently of media center just for setup purposes. No idea on FM.


And I'll check that thread out.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> I know I get stuck in the research phase far too long but I have just been burned for what like seems over and over again for making decisions faster than I feel comfortable, only to lack the full comprehension of the situation. In many cases, I've found that if I was a little more patient I would have done a better job at whatever process or product is being discussed.



I know the feeling well. Been there, done that.


Your fmfool report for zip 02852:


----------



## kevm14

I never use FM but...that seems like a lot. Am I going to have a problem?


----------



## dvansowhat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17263317
> 
> 
> I never use FM but...that seems like a lot. Am I going to have a problem?



Wish I had that problem


----------



## kevm14

Is my "problem" enough to require an FM trap?


Also, I guess this is life in southern new england. I'm just lucky that my home's location works out so RI station transmitters and many Boston transmitters are within a 13° beam spread of each other. The WG 7697P comes tomorrow. The day of reckoning...or perhaps it's more of a weekend job.


----------



## ray50

Just took down a huge HD8200P and added an 2nd XG91 (all stations I want are now UHF). I now have a vertical stack with the two XG91s about 4' apart. They are combined on the mast and feed a Winegard AP-8275. I expected a BIG improvement over 1 XG91, but see only a very small improvement (a few % maybe). I used equal length 6' RG6 to the combiner ( http://www.directdepot.net/product_i...ducts_id=22826 ) to the preamp. Maybe horz. stack is better but vert. was easy because I had a 4' mast to add. Shouldn't I see a bigger improvement??


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Generally, I think external consumer electronic set top tuners, as well as those built into newer TVs, are regarded as being more sensitive than the PC-based internal or external devices.



Theyre getting better. I recently got a (open box at Newegg, $37) AVerTV Bravo Hybrid PCI-E which has a 6th generation tuner. Directly testing it on the same line, and at the exact same time as my Zenith DTT901 CECB, the PCI-E card drops out just a millisecond before the DTT901 does on a weak signal.







And its about a millisecond slower to recover.


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17270393
> 
> 
> Theyre getting better. I recently got a AVerTV Bravo Hybrid PCI-E which has a 6th generation tuner. Directly testing it on the same line, and at the exact same time as my Zenith DTT901 CECB, the PCI-E card drops out just a millisecond before the DTT901 does on a weak signal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And its about a millisecond slower to recover.



I had picked out the Avermedia Duet since I want a dual tuner with internal splitter. Any thoughts on that one? It is fairly new as well. Newer than the other competing dual tuner on the market, the Hauppauge 2250 (which also does NTSC).


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17263317
> 
> 
> I never use FM but...that seems like a lot. Am I going to have a problem?



You should be fine. With a 7-69 antenna, you are likely OK unless you are right on top of any strong FM station(s). (0-5 miles)


----------



## Larry Kenney

I've got a new Antennas Direct Clearstream 5 and am very pleased with how it works. I wanted something that would pick up the two VHF stations in this market without having to use a rotor. (A rotor and DVR don't work well together.







) The C5 was listed a multidirectional antenna, so I thought I'd try it. I planned to couple it up with the Antennas Direct SR-15 I have for UHF.


Well, much to my surprise, with the antenna pointed toward Mt. San Bruno at 178 degrees and peaked for KNTV channel 12, I not only get a good signal on 12, but KGO on channel 7 is coming in at 33 db SNR from Sutro Tower which is to the west at 267 degrees.


But that's not the end of the story. I'm also getting excellent signals on ALL of the UHF stations on Sutro Tower and Mt. San Bruno, plus decent signals from all of the stations transmitting from the hills above Fremont 35 miles to the southeast, including a low power 12.2 kw station. That's with just the C5 by itself... no SR-15.


The C5 is a weird looking antenna, but it seems to perform very well. Now I can use the SR-15 for something else.


Larry

SF


----------



## The Wizard




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/17271373
> 
> 
> I've got a new Antennas Direct Clearstream 5 and am very pleased with how it works.



Can anybody else second this?

I thought early users of the C5 hated it and sent it back, there being no good substitute for a Yagi-style antenna for receiving high VHF...


----------



## hayj

So I installed my hdp-269 and it works great. Channel 19 comes in fine after the jointenna and a two way split. My antenna is on the eave of the house so the cable drops into the attic and through a ceiling, and then connects to the tuner in a closet, so its a short run. To test it before I got on the roof, I put it in-line at the end of the run before the jointenna. Everything works fine now so I'm tempted to leave it there as opposed to mounting it on the mast, outside exposed to the elements. Is there any reason not to if things work fine? Am I overlooking something due to inexperience?


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *The Wizard* /forum/post/17271880
> 
> 
> Can anybody else second this?
> 
> I thought early users of the C5 hated it and sent it back, there being no good substitute for a Yagi-style antenna for receiving high VHF...



If you live in an area with very low levels of multipath, and decent signal strength, the C-5 may work just fine. A real windy day is the real test for such a non- directional antenna.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *The Wizard* /forum/post/17271880
> 
> 
> Can anybody else second this?
> 
> I thought early users of the C5 hated it and sent it back, there being no good substitute for a Yagi-style antenna for receiving high VHF...



Nonsense. According to a little birdie, returns have been less than 2% and most of them were from people who didn't know what they were doing or self-selected the wrong antenna. About 1/4 of the returns were never even assembled.


Most posters here (on AVSforum) only come on when they have problems. You rarely hear the success stories. Station engineers who received samples of the C5 to try out have reported excellent results. One even reported good results with it on VHF-5 at about 25 miles, something that was unexpected.



> Quote:
> If you live in an area with very low levels of multipath, and decent signal strength, the C-5 may work just fine. A real windy day is the real test for such a non- directional antenna.



At about 6 dbd on high-VHF, the C5's gain is almost exactly the same as the recommended antena gain that the FCC uses in calculating service coverage (OET-69 Planning Factors).


The C5 is basically a scaled-up C1. It exhibits similar beamwidth (70°) and F/B performance (around 10-12 dB based on testing). It is classified as "multi-directional". Gain-wise, it's roughly equivilent to a 5-element Yagi but with a broader beamwidth. However, it isn't 5 feet long which makes it an attractive option for a lot of people. Of course, if greater gain and/or directivity is needed, then a 10-element Yagi would be suggested.


I played with a C5 a couple of weeks ago using my 1454 hand-held spectrum analyzer. I was able to see the signals on the SA screen from VHF stations on 8 & 12 from over 70 miles away at a height of only 10' above ground (good atmospherics that day!). I am in the middle of two VHF-8 stations and could see both of them when the antenna was pointed at each. I was able to get a partial decode on them with my USB tuner, but I forgot to bring a power supply for my pre-amp with me so I wasn't able to try it with a pre-amp. Maybe some other time...


FWIW, the TVfool forcasts for those stations are pretty dismal: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8ecd9b7d0e4ccd


----------



## Don F.




ProjectSHO89 said:


> Nonsense. According to a little birdie, returns have been less than 2% and most of them were from people who didn't know what they were doing or self-selected the wrong antenna. About 1/4 of the returns were never even assembled.
> 
> 
> Most posters here (on AVSforum) only come on when they have problems. You rarely hear the success stories. Station engineers who received samples of the C5 to try out have reported excellent results. One even reported good results with it on VHF-5 at about 25 miles, something that was unexpected.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While the c5 may be a great antenna, the c4 was not good at all. I actually took it out of the box, and mounted it 25ft above ground, and it still
> 
> was below SECOND rate.
> 
> I beleive most posters are looking for answers, and those who respond either say... I had good results with bla bla, or I had bad results with bla bla. I value the opinions of the posters on avs forums, and once in a blue moon will you get a station engineer to respond...


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ray50* /forum/post/17267880
> 
> 
> Just took down a huge HD8200P and added an 2nd XG91 (all stations I want are now UHF). I now have a vertical stack with the two XG91s about 4' apart. They are combined on the mast and feed a Winegard AP-8275. I expected a BIG improvement over 1 XG91, but see only a very small improvement (a few % maybe). I used equal length 6' RG6 to the combiner ( http://www.directdepot.net/product_i...ducts_id=22826 ) to the preamp. Maybe horz. stack is better but vert. was easy because I had a 4' mast to add. Shouldn't I see a bigger improvement??



I can't get the link to work. Is your combiner one of these?:
http://www.directdepot.net/advanced_...&Submit=Search 


The maximum theoretical improvement is 3 dB. When I combined two CM4221 UHF antennas for CH 15 I measured 2.5 dB gain using selected baluns. When two baluns are used they must be phased correctly. If you measure less gain then try reversing the 300 ohm connections on one of the baluns. I don't know what the feed connection for the XG91 is......I think it has an integral black balun box. Combining two antennas with a splitter/combiner is an "iffy" proposition. Sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't:
http://www.hdtvtruckee.com/ 
http://www.hdtvtruckee.com/CombinerMeasurement.htm 
http://www.hdtvtruckee.com/CombinerComparison.htm 


You didn't say what equipment you are using to measure the percentage, but it's an arbitrary scale that varies according to the equipment used. When I calibrated the signal strength scale on my Apex DT502, using the method described in the Kelvin link in my signature, I got this (compare the 3 dB attenuator steps with the percentage change on the strength scale):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post15414426 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post15790650 


There is also a *signal meters ... true lies?* thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1146498 


> Quote:
> Maybe horz. stack is better



Horizontal stacking is more popular because it narrows the horizontal beamwidth (as in the 4228 vs the 4221). So, even if you don't end up with more gain, the narrower horizontal beamwidth often reduces multipath errors which makes it easier for the tuner to maintain lock on a weak signal.


Edit: *ProjectSHO89* in the next post gives a link to some good ideas by *Piggie* about gain and other characteristics of antennas; don't miss it!


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don F.* /forum/post/17275752
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/17273346
> 
> 
> Nonsense. According to a little birdie, returns have been less than 2% and most of them were from people who didn't know what they were doing or self-selected the wrong antenna. About 1/4 of the returns were never even assembled.
> 
> 
> Most posters here (on AVSforum) only come on when they have problems. You rarely hear the success stories. Station engineers who received samples of the C5 to try out have reported excellent results. One even reported good results with it on VHF-5 at about 25 miles, something that was unexpected.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While the c5 may be a great antenna, the c4 was not good at all. I actually took it out of the box, and mounted it 25ft above ground, and it still
> 
> was below SECOND rate.
> 
> I beleive most posters are looking for answers, and those who respond either say... I had good results with bla bla, or I had bad results with bla bla. I value the opinions of the posters on avs forums, and once in a blue moon will you get a station engineer to respond...
Click to expand...



How ironic that I just came across this post on another forum: http://www.dtvusaforum.com/dtv-hdtv-...r-antenna.html 


Must be a blue moon!


----------



## SemiChemE




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don F.* /forum/post/17275752
> 
> 
> While the c5 may be a great antenna, the c4 was not good at all. I actually took it out of the box, and mounted it 25ft above ground, and it still
> 
> was below SECOND rate.
> 
> I beleive most posters are looking for answers, and those who respond either say... I had good results with bla bla, or I had bad results with bla bla. I value the opinions of the posters on avs forums, and once in a blue moon will you get a station engineer to respond...



I'm pretty happy with my C4. Despite being an attic mount, I get the Albany UHF stations pretty well even though they're over 66 miles away. Sure, there are better UHF antenna's out there, but for the size it's pretty hard to beat the C4. In fact on a good day, I've even gotten WYNE and WFUT, which based on my TVFool results is pretty impressive:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8ecdbb879d1a14 


Of course YMMV.


----------



## ray50

Thanks rabbit73 for all the information. I assumed adding another antenna would be a no brainer if I was careful to align them. Your correct the link doesn't work... it is a Channel Plus 2532. The XG91's have a black box balun with 75ohm output. I see the tilt is off a little but other then that they are directly vert. with the driven elements the same distances from the mast. I will do some more reading...I had just the upper one before which just could receive a CBS channel I wanted but with many dropouts. At the lower position it couldn't see CBS at all. Guess it makes sense that if I run the upper XG91 through a combiner my total signal for that channel will drop.


----------



## kevm14

I got the WG 7697P up and running.











Used my laptop running Win 7 RC1 media center and the Pinnacle 800e usb tuner and a short run of coax to dial it in. Much better than running down the ladder and inside between adjustments.


I am a little disappointed, though I am not sure the antenna is doing anything wrong. I think I am in a worse area than I thought, at least as it pertains to the fringe channels I thought I would get.


In short, I think I have quite a few channels that aren't LOS, contradicting TV Fool . The reception results that I got did not correlate with antenna alignment, at least as far as my understanding that all of my channels were available LOS at 15 feet.


The Boston CW and ION that I wanted to receive, nay, expected to receive and why I purchased a high gain antenna like this, were too weak, even pointed directly at the Boston towers.


We tried clocking the antenna at as many discrete positions as we had time for, with the rapidly fading light last night. We let Media Center run through the signal strength loop each time we moved the antenna. The best overall reception seemed to be pointing at the only real open spot out of my neighborhood, or about 300°. As a refresher I was expecting to receive the strong RI stations @ 41° and the weaker Boston stations at 28-29° while pointed at ~32°. Well, how about 300? And surprisingly I get RI CW from 83° and ION from 258°. I think I have a multipath problem, no? I did get Boston CW best as LOS I think, but "best" was only 3 out of 6 bars which I know would never be reliable enough to bother with. And Boston ION never came up over 1 or 2 bars.


Do I need to add height? An amp? Experiment more with aim? Should I have gotten the 14 foot 7698P, after all that deliberation???


I think trees and maybe some roofs of houses may be in the way, but definitely big pines.


I know the Winegard antennas suffer during shipment (and possibly manufacture) and after doing some reading I am going to take a close look at the crossover/balun box and make sure the prongs are making contact with the wires. I am also going to straighten all the elements, even the ones only slightly bent.


Overall I get more channels than before, but instead of the 24 I thought I'd get, I am down around 19 or so.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

See that tree that the antenna is pointed right into? You don't need a bigger antenna or an amp, you need a STIHL! Make firewood out of it!


If you can, try re-locating the antenna towards the left (of the photo) so it isn't staring right into a nearby tree.


----------



## The Wizard




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17280909
> 
> 
> I think trees and maybe some roofs of houses may be in the way, but definitely big pines.



I've got an 18" Husqvarna and a pickup.

PM me the details and I'll be over on Sunday to take down all those trees and haul away the hardwood logs.

And THANKS!!


----------



## ctdish

I would try a low gain preamp and try with the computer a larger distance from the antenna. The next step would putting the antenna 6-10 feet above the peak of the roof.

John


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> I think trees and maybe some roofs of houses may be in the way, but definitely big pines.



Thanks for the photo, Kevin. It gives us a good idea of what's going on.


I quote Ken Nist, KQ6QV, from his hdtvprimer site (which seems to be down at the moment, otherwise I would have given links):



> Quote:
> *Trees as obstructions -*
> 
> 
> A tree has very little effect on VHF-low, but a significant effect on VHF-high. But the big problem is UHF. A tree with leaves blocks about 90% of a UHF signal. The space behind the tree is an overlap of the signal going through the tree and the signal diffracting around the tree. Such overlapping fields have an alternating pattern of strong and weak spots separated by only a few feet. An antenna in a strong spot might work nicely until the wind blows, deforming the tree and moving the spots. Thus, for DTV stations, you are likely to see dropouts when the wind blows. Even in a good-signal neighborhood it is inadvisable to put a UHF antenna behind a tree.
> 
> 
> If the tree loses its leaves in the fall, reception behind it will improve dramatically. Many people get a TV for Christmas, and erect an antenna for it in January, and then wonder why it quit working in May. It’s the trees.
> 
> *The farther away a tree is, the less of a problem it is.* For far away trees, assume no signal penetrates the tree, and reception will be by diffraction around the tree. See Diffraction.
> 
> 
> Trees block 100% of satellite signals.


----------



## Don F.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SemiChemE* /forum/post/17276999
> 
> 
> I'm pretty happy with my C4. Despite being an attic mount, I get the Albany UHF stations pretty well even though they're over 66 miles away. Sure, there are better UHF antenna's out there, but for the size it's pretty hard to beat the C4. In fact on a good day, I've even gotten WYNE and WFUT, which based on my TVFool results is pretty impressive:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8ecdbb879d1a14
> 
> 
> Of course YMMV.



My problem with the c4 was not uhf, but it's claim to be a vhf antenna. Probably works los within 40 vhf miles...


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I had picked out the Avermedia Duet since I want a dual tuner with internal splitter. Any thoughts on that one? It is fairly new as well. Newer than the other competing dual tuner on the market, the Hauppauge 2250 (which also does NTSC).



Yeah, the Avermedia Duet is really recent and should have 6th gen tuners in it as well.


Like everyone else says, those trees are a huge obstacle for you. When the leaves fall, will there be any clear line thru them ?



> Quote:
> The next step would putting the antenna 6-10 feet above the peak of the roof.



I would go about 30 - 40 ft above the roof with guy wires to clear the trees. (or are they even higher than that ?) The WG 7697P doesnt look heavy or like it would have a lot of wind load.


----------



## kevm14

I removed a few of the problem branches from the leafy tree closest to the antenna. As I also mentioned I had 4 very large white pines removed from my front yard only a few weeks ago. It was a very big job...I have those pictures elsewhere on my gallery if anyone is interested










Here are all the pictures of how the antenna is currently aimed. It is about 308 degrees. My signals of interest are between 28 and 41...so obviously something is going on. I took a picture at what I thought would have been my ideal aim, about 32 degrees. As you can see I did remove some of the problem leaves. I also plan to take the entire tree down but the rest of the trees are large white pines that are gonna cost probably $600 or $700 each to remove, and they're not mine.

http://kevinallenmoore.com/photo/v/misc/ATSC/


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> It is about 308 degrees. My signals of interest are between 28 and 41...so obviously something is going on.



Your stations at 41 degrees are very strong, above 47 NM for the most part, so no surprise getting those just about any way the antenna is pointed.

Can you get channel 9 and 26 at 265/274 degrees now ?


----------



## kevm14

I don't think so. I recall 29 coming in while I was on the roof but I don't think the current aim is ideal for that.


I do get CW, 28.1 from 83° at 4/6 bars and ION 69.1 from 258°. My original plan was to somehow receive these. Unfortunately, I lost a Boston ABC 5.1, PBS 2.1 and independent 38.1, while aimed at my current 308°. If I aim towards Boston I get the channels back that I lost but then I get no CW or ION...boston or otherwise. The two Boston versions I thought I'd get.


I went back on the roof last night and tried to straighten the elements. I looked up at the antenna this morning and I could still do a better job.


I also removed the crossover box and bent the prongs inward a bit so they grab the wires a little better. That didn't seem to make a difference, though perhaps I should put the antenna back at 32° after I get that tree down and see what happens.


One more thing...is there any reason I should persue the exchange of 7697P for the 7698P? It has 1.6dB more gain at RF 32, which was the Boston ION that I had such trouble with. From RF 25 to 40 the 7698P provides 1dB or more of increase from 7697P. Should I bother or are my environmental and/or geographical issues much bigger?


----------



## onezero




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17263076
> 
> 
> Wow that is a bad area. What is your antenna height?
> 
> 
> Also I looked up those antennas. They are pretty high gain. How much do you think you lose by splitting? And do you have them pointed in the same direction? You have a lot of stuff at 90d but not everything.
> 
> 
> You know what else I realized...you probably don't need a fancy band pass/cut combiner. You might even be able to use a splitter backwards. What do you use?



If this is a response to my last post, the uhf is at about 25 ft AGL and the VHF is mounted 4 ft below. I didn't use a combiner I wired the YA 1713 to the VHF terminals on the HD 9022 with quad cable and CM baluns and then the HD-9022 to the preamp. I wasn't worried about losses from the YA-1713 as we have no problem getting the VHF signals, just the UHF. I think the CM baluns have about 0.5 db loss, so I might have lost 1 db as it takes 2 to connect. I suppose I could have used shielded 300 ohm and had no loss, but it wasn't worth the trouble tracking down a couple of feet of 300 ohm. See the attached photo below.


I pick up the major Philly networks (including ch 6) as well as the NYC networks and the array is pointed at NYC. Lots of trees in the way plus 2 or 3 ridges. We are the only people in our neighborhood still using OTA. I may add another HD 9022 to improve WOR and WNYW reception and maybe eliminate the multipath interference we get when aircraft fly over as we are on a major flight path to NYC and Newark and probably Philly. But that's next year's project.



OZ


----------



## kevm14

Hmm that makes me wonder if I end up having to raise mine, if I should relocate it to the chimney or just put a longer mast on where it is now.


----------



## onezero




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ray50* /forum/post/17267880
> 
> 
> Just took down a huge HD8200P and added an 2nd XG91 (all stations I want are now UHF). I now have a vertical stack with the two XG91s about 4' apart. They are combined on the mast and feed a Winegard AP-8275. I expected a BIG improvement over 1 XG91, but see only a very small improvement (a few % maybe). I used equal length 6' RG6 to the combiner ( http://www.directdepot.net/product_i...ducts_id=22826 ) to the preamp. Maybe horz. stack is better but vert. was easy because I had a 4' mast to add. Shouldn't I see a bigger improvement??



4 feet is too far apart, they should be 1 wave length apart - ch 14 is about 25 inches measured from boom to boom. Also your connecting cables have to be exactly the same length and your baluns have to be in phase with each other. Its always good to test your antennas on the ground before putting them up. I drove a section of rebar into the ground and slipped the mast onto it for my testing, worked great.


Good luck,


OZ


----------



## holl_ands

"Optimum" separation for Horizontal Stacking is a function of the antenna's

boomlength (or beamwidth) and would be MORE than one wavelength:
http://vk1od.net/antenna/dl6wu/EstimatingBeamwidth.htm 
http://vk1od.net/antenna/dl6wu/ 
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/stack...ing2.htm#DL6WU 
http://www.grantronics.com.au/docs/StkYagis.pdf 


Of course, bear in mind that wavelength for Ch14 is much larger than Ch51,

with lower gain and higher beamwidth. So decide where to optimize....


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Hmm that makes me wonder if I end up having to raise mine, if I should relocate it to the chimney or just put a longer mast on where it is now.



What you should do is to experiment with the height, looking for the sweet spot. At UHF, even 6 inches can make a difference. And experiment with the height at the time of day you do most of your viewing, probably early evening, like when you took the picture.

Also, what condition is your coax in ? Also, maybe try another balun.


----------



## onezero




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/17286047
> 
> 
> "Optimum" separation for Horizontal Stacking is a function of the antenna's
> 
> boomlength (or beamwidth) and would be MORE than one wavelength:
> http://vk1od.net/antenna/dl6wu/EstimatingBeamwidth.htm
> http://vk1od.net/antenna/dl6wu/
> http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/stack...ing2.htm#DL6WU
> http://www.grantronics.com.au/docs/StkYagis.pdf
> 
> 
> Of course, bear in mind that wavelength for Ch14 is much larger than Ch51,
> 
> with lower gain and higher beamwidth. So decide where to optimize....



Very nice links the last one in particular as it has a good explanation of phasing. My choice of 1 wavelength came from much searching and a couple links basically said start at 1(reflectors can't touch) and adjust as needed. I can't find the link though so I can't post it.


Your references seem to be all related to HAM radio, and I am not sure if it is absolutely applicable to UHF antennas, especially if someone is stacking the bow-tie types. Here's some more links:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...t=41102&page=2 

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=107432 

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html#TAT 


Hope this helps.


OZ


----------



## ctdish

The statement from the grantronics.com stacking link of "you should stack at a distance in wavelengths of 57 / 3dB beamwidth in degrees." applies to any antenna at any frequency.

John


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17286518
> 
> 
> What you should do is to experiment with the height, looking for the sweet spot. At UHF, even 6 inches can make a difference. And experiment with the height at the time of day you do most of your viewing, probably early evening, like when you took the picture.
> 
> Also, what condition is your coax in ? Also, maybe try another balun.



Wow 6 inches huh?


The coax is all brand new quad shield with compression F connectors installed by yours truly. The only variable is the way I made the connections. The foil would slide back and get crushed down. But comparing to the 8 footer I was using on the roof that was terminated by a cable guy, there is very little signal loss, including the fact that the run probably approaches 60 or maybe even 70 feet.


I bought a balun for my old antenna when I upgraded to the coax from the 300ohm. But this Winegard balun includes crossover circuitry to combine the VHF and UHF sections of the antenna, so I don't know if I could use a conventional balun.


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17283298
> 
> 
> Yeah, the Avermedia Duet is really recent and should have 6th gen tuners in it as well.



Well if I am really lucky it will have better sensitivity and performance than my single USB tuner. But I dunno if I feel lucky.



> Quote:
> Like everyone else says, those trees are a huge obstacle for you. When the leaves fall, will there be any clear line thru them ?



The only leafy tree in close proximity to the antenna is the one in the first picture. I have limbed it since and will get rid of it soon enough. The rest are very large white pines, mainly trunks.



> Quote:
> I would go about 30 - 40 ft above the roof with guy wires to clear the trees. (or are they even higher than that ?) The WG 7697P doesnt look heavy or like it would have a lot of wind load.



Whoa, above the trees? I don't think that is going to happen. If that's what I need then I will have to say goodbye to certain channels. I never meant for this project to get that complicated and expensive.


It's not heavy, though I am wondering if I should upgrade to the 14 foot version, the 7698P. I just don't know if it's worth the hassle. I think getting the antenna in the path of the signal is worth a lot more than a little higher gain antenna placed sub-optimally. Then again, I could do both...


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17286518
> 
> 
> At UHF, even 6 inches can make a difference.



Absolutely!! I've seen only 6 inches make a huge difference with UHF.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> It's not heavy, though I am wondering if I should upgrade to the 14 foot version, the 7698P. I just don't know if it's worth the hassle.



Hmm, I think your better off spending the money on a quality low noise preamp to make up for the 60 - 70 feet of cable (plus the inevitable splitters, heh).


----------



## onezero




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/17286712
> 
> 
> The statement from the grantronics.com stacking link of "you should stack at a distance in wavelengths of 57 / 3dB beamwidth in degrees." applies to any antenna at any frequency.
> 
> John



"you should stack at a distance in wavelengths of 57 / 3dB beamwidth in degrees." This may be true, but WTF does it mean to us poor non-engineers? It's wonderful to have highly trained people adding their knowledge here, but when you do why not lay it out in terms anyone can understand? Like in the case of the XG-91 question why not just give the guy the calculation's results? And then maybe go step by step with that antenna as the basis.


Just a thought.


OZ


----------



## ctdish

The only info I could find on the XG91 BW is a statement that it is about 23 degrees. If that is at the old channel 69 near 800 Mhz, a wavelength is 37.5 cm. The spacing would come out 93 cm.

John


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/17288193
> 
> 
> The only info I could find on the XG91 BW is a statement that it is about 23 degrees. If that is at the old channel 69 near 800 Mhz, a wavelength is 37.5 cm. The spacing would come out 93 cm.
> 
> John



That seems too close to me. The middle of the UHF band is now channel 33 at 599 MHZ. That sets the spacing at about 4'.


----------



## ctdish

You also have to take into account the beamwidth which will usually be wider at a lower channel. In fact for most UHF antennas if you calculate the spacing for one channel, it will be the same for other channels.

John


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17280909
> 
> 
> I got the WG 7697P up and running.
> 
> 
> I am a little disappointed, though I am not sure the antenna is doing anything wrong. I think I am in a worse area than I thought, at least as it pertains to the fringe channels I thought I would get.
> 
> 
> The Boston CW and ION that I wanted to receive, nay, expected to receive and why I purchased a high gain antenna like this, were too weak, even pointed directly at the Boston towers.
> 
> 
> We tried clocking the antenna at as many discrete positions as we had time for, with the rapidly fading light last night. We let Media Center run through the signal strength loop each time we moved the antenna. The best overall reception seemed to be pointing at the only real open spot out of my neighborhood, or about 300°. As a refresher I was expecting to receive the strong RI stations @ 41° and the weaker Boston stations at 28-29° while pointed at ~32°. Well, how about 300? And surprisingly I get RI CW from 83° and ION from 258°. I think I have a multipath problem, no? I did get Boston CW best as LOS I think, but "best" was only 3 out of 6 bars which I know would never be reliable enough to bother with. And Boston ION never came up over 1 or 2 bars.



It's the trees. The signals can't go thru the trees, so they are diffracted around them giving you antenna aim that is not towards the transmitters. If you could somehow gradually increase the height of your antenna, you would begin to see your azimuth readings match the ones in the tvfool report. (Where's that friend with a "cherry picker" truck when you need him?)


> Quote:
> In short, I think I have quite a few channels that aren't LOS, contradicting TV Fool . The reception results that I got did not correlate with antenna alignment, at least as far as my understanding that all of my channels were available LOS at 15 feet.



Tvfool is sometimes wrong, but not in this case. It has to make some assumptions, one of which is that there are no trees directly in front of the antenna.


> Quote:
> Overall I get more channels than before, but instead of the 24 I thought I'd get, I am down around 19 or so.



I think you are doing very well considering the location of the antenna.










> Quote:
> Do I need to add height? An amp? Experiment more with aim? Should I have gotten the 14 foot 7698P, after all that deliberation???



Yes, you need to add height....as much as possible and away from the trees as much as possible.


A preamp will make up for the loss in the coax downlead (as 300ohm said) but it will not make up for a poor antenna location.


The aim experiments that you have already done have told you that the trees are in the way.


The 7698 is not the best solution for your problem. Its gain is only slightly more than the 7697 and it is a lot harder to handle up in the air. Actually, I initially imagined that you would end up with the 7696. An antenna smaller than the 7698 mounted up-in-the-air in an open location will out perform the 7698 in your present antenna location.


Many times I have measured a signal increase of more than 10 dB after moving an antenna to a better location.


> Quote:
> I think getting the antenna in the path of the signal is worth a lot more than a little higher gain antenna placed sub-optimally.



Correct!










The hdtvprimer site seems to be working now. Take a look at the neat diffraction diagrams:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html


----------



## systems2000

That tree is killing your reception.


Can you relocate the antenna to the other end of the house (towards the far front corner looks like it would be better)? Try to get at least 6' above the roof peak (10' would be better).


I would think that vertical stacking would work better for you than a pre-amp.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *onezero* /forum/post/17287813
> 
> 
> "you should stack at a distance in wavelengths of 57 / 3dB beamwidth in degrees." This may be true, but WTF does it mean to us poor non-engineers? It's wonderful to have highly trained people adding their knowledge here, but when you do why not lay it out in terms anyone can understand? Like in the case of the XG-91 question why not just give the guy the calculation's results? And then maybe go step by step with that antenna as the basis.
> 
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> 
> OZ



The first link has the answers in pretty simple terms:
http://vk1od.net/antenna/dl6wu/EstimatingBeamwidth.htm 

Fig 1 shows how Yagi Beamwidth can be derived from Gain (and vice versa).

Fig 3 charts the optimum separation Distance vs Antenna Gain, which will

VARY with frequency in most antennas....chose which freq or channel to optimize.


Gain vs Channel is given here (or in manu. specs):
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/comparing.html 

Converting between Channel and Freq isn't even required.


----------



## onezero




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/17291276
> 
> 
> The first link has the answers in pretty simple terms:
> http://vk1od.net/antenna/dl6wu/EstimatingBeamwidth.htm
> 
> Fig 1 shows how Yagi Beamwidth can be derived from Gain (and vice versa).
> 
> Fig 3 charts the optimum separation Distance vs Antenna Gain, which will
> 
> VARY with frequency in most antennas....chose which freq or channel to optimize.
> 
> 
> Gain vs Channel is given here (or in manu. specs):
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/comparing.html
> 
> Converting between Channel and Freq isn't even required.



Clear as mud.


OZ


----------



## onezero

For Ray50 or any XG91 users here's some links:

http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/4364/5643.html 

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=9676 

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=107432 


Good luck,


OZ


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *onezero* /forum/post/17292055
> 
> 
> For Ray50 or any XG91 users here's some links:
> 
> 
> http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/4364/5643.html
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=9676
> 
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=107432
> 
> 
> Good luck,
> 
> 
> OZ



Thanks for the interesting links. But, in the third link *stampeder* has it backwards about vertical and horizontal stacking vs beamwidth (unless he does an edit):
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=933732 


He should have said that vertical stacking reduces the vertical beamwidth and horizontal stacking reduces the horizontal beamwidth. I hope he doesn't think that the DBGH has narrow horizontal beamwidth:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post14937123 polar plots DBGH VS CM4228

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/g...R.html#stacked 

which says:


> Quote:
> When dipoles are stacked horizontally, the horizontal beam-width becomes very narrow. This is because they do not add in-phase for directions not straight ahead. Similarly, when stacked vertically, the vertical beam-width becomes narrower.
> 
> The same principles apply when stacking whole antennas, not just dipoles.



Narrower beamwidths shown here:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/16bay.html


----------



## 300ohm

Ive always liked the venetian blind / horse blinders analogy found here :

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/stackluge.html


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17292771
> 
> 
> Ive always liked the venetian blind / horse blinders analogy found here :
> 
> http://www.kyes.com/antenna/stackluge.html



And I like that link.

Thanks.


----------



## goldrich

Here are a couple of tests I conducted last year between a single XG91 and two Triax Unix 100s (almost identical to the XG91) horizontally stacked.
http://www.wtfda.info/showpost.php?p=6610&postcount=1 
http://www.wtfda.info/showpost.php?p=6715&postcount=13 


If you have multipath issues and plan to stack, stack them horizontally.
http://atechfabrication.com/tests/03...cking_test.htm 


Great discussion here about stacking XG91s.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1182277 

MAX HD and cpcat have built and tested a number of various configurations with many different brands/models of antennas. My antenna setup came from MAX HD.


Steve


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Theyre getting better. I recently got a (open box at Newegg, $37) AVerTV Bravo Hybrid PCI-E which has a 6th generation tuner. Directly testing it on the same line, and at the exact same time as my Zenith DTT901 CECB, the PCI-E card drops out just a millisecond before the DTT901 does on a weak signal. And its about a millisecond slower to recover.



Actually, thinking it about it a little more, the pc tuner gets sound and video about a millisecond behind the regular tv (other pc tuners I played with do the same). So its really recovering from a drop out at about the same time.


----------



## onezero




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/17292905
> 
> 
> And I like that link.
> 
> Thanks.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17292771
> 
> 
> Ive always liked the venetian blind / horse blinders analogy found here :
> 
> http://www.kyes.com/antenna/stackluge.html



Yes, great link and it even has the most direct answer to my particular problem , multipath from aircraft:


"Vertical stacking improves both gain and vertical directivity. This helps reduce airplane flutter and attendant picture roll"


This may also be the original source for the post I read somewhere about vertical stacking 1 wavelength apart:


" 0ptimum and minimum spacing is 0.94 and 0.60 wavelength, respectively, at the lowest frequency received. Spacing exceeding one wavelength reduces the performance of the stack."



After wading through all these new links I remembered this one:

http://www.wtfda.org/index.php?optio...d=24&Itemid=43 


Read the link to Stagger Stacking, it takes things to a whole 'nutha level 8^)


OZ


----------



## dagger666

QUANTUM-FX ANT-101(ANT101) UHF/VHF Indoor TV Amplified ANTENNA or Winegard SS-3000 Amplified Indoor UHF/VHF Antenna


I'm about 13 miles form NY city on Long Island and the Monoprice antenna can't get 7, and now 11 and starting to drop 13 for some reason. Been looking for a new indoor antenna that will not cost much so thinking of one of these.


----------



## kevm14

Cut down two trees and aggressively limbed the big white pine. I played the aim-game again with the laptop on the roof. I ended up at about 50 degrees which is almost exactly where the old antenna was aimed. Seems like the best overall trade off. I get a Boston CBS, ABC and FOX. And I get the off axis RI CW and RI ION. Boston 38 is intermittent but all of this is better than the 300 degree aim I said I was using earlier.


I know I need to raise it and I will. But something still confuses me. I mentioned I get Boston Fox 25. I also get another channel, 46. Well, the Boston ION and CW that I just can't get at all (not even a little) are supposedly stronger than these other two channels, according to TV Fool. And specifically 38, which is somewhat intermittent, is supposed to be stronger than Boston CW. What's up with that?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17297708
> 
> 
> Cut down two trees and aggressively limbed the big white pine. I played the aim-game again with the laptop on the roof. I ended up at about 50 degrees which is almost exactly where the old antenna was aimed. Seems like the best overall trade off. I get a Boston CBS, ABC and FOX. And I get the off axis RI CW and RI ION. Boston 38 is intermittent but all of this is better than the 300 degree aim I said I was using earlier.
> 
> 
> I know I need to raise it and I will. But something still confuses me. I mentioned I get Boston Fox 25. I also get another channel, 46. Well, the Boston ION and CW that I just can't get at all (not even a little) are supposedly stronger than these other two channels, according to TV Fool. And specifically 38, which is somewhat intermittent, is supposed to be stronger than Boston CW. What's up with that?



Keep in mind that the terrain modeling and signal power forecasting software has limitations that affect accuracy.


Two things in particular may apply:


1) Terrain resolution. The TVfool software divides the terrain into 100 square meter blocks and averages the terrain within that block and between adjacent blocks. That makes the resultant estimates highly variable for the "last mile" or so of the signal path. Other online modeling, notably at the FCC's website, is 10 times coarser in its resolution.


2) TVFool's (and any other forecast based on the LRI model) software assumes that you have clear line-of-sight to the horizon. No trees, no buildings, etc, can be forecast. if you have these, then the accuracy of the forecast becomes poorer very quickly


In other words, don't expect the forecasts to be 100% accurate....


----------



## kevm14

I don't expect total accuracy but I did expect consistency. When the towers are in the same general area I figured I could at least reference tv fool on a relative level.


----------



## systems2000

You could have an issue with the proper location of the antenna height to RF wavelength wave peak.


Follow this link "Erecting a TV antenna" at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ , then follow this link "Choosing a mounting site."


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17298317
> 
> 
> I don't expect total accuracy but I did expect consistency.



I experience similar anomalies here in southern NH. 38 (WSBK) and 44 (WGBX) are much worse then stations modeled weaker. Channel 7 (WHDH) and 25 (WFXT) come in all the time even though they model 5 and 10 dB lower then WGBX.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...befb1d6ecdfd6f 


We have a similar situation antenna is about 30 feet AGL which places it below treetop level.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17298317
> 
> 
> I don't expect total accuracy but I did expect consistency. When the towers are in the same general area I figured I could at least reference tv fool on a relative level.



Even signals from antennas on the same tower might vary significantly in actual signal quality due to variables related factors other than power.


Additionally, TVF uses FCC license and permit data, If a CP has been issued, TVF uses the to-be-built data as soon as the CP is issued. In real life, stations actually have a lot of time to build the facility that is permitted leading to a falsely optimistic forecast for that station.


IOW, take it as a guide, but not an absolute.


In my own case, my TVF isn't too bad: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...befb2e2ee8e241 


However, in real life, my signal from KETC is dismal and KDNL isn't much better off my 4-boom 91XG at 35' AGL. KMOV, however, is very strong compared to most of the others.


----------



## SWHouston

That 101 is a cheep indoor antenna ($14), the Winegard 3000 is a well made bidirectional indoor unit that goes for about $40. No comparison.


However, I don't know if either will solve your problem, without seeing a chart on you location. Give me your ZipCode, or attach a TVFool Chart for your Stations and we'll go from there.


----------



## 300ohm

Code:


Code:


In real life, stations actually have a lot of time to build the facility that is permitted leading to a falsely optimistic forecast for that station.

Yep, and the stations do testing and tweaking right after the transmitter is operational, which can drive you nuts for a while, heh.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17299156
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> In real life, stations actually have a lot of time to build the facility that is permitted leading to a falsely optimistic forecast for that station.
> 
> Yep, and the stations do testing and tweaking right after the transmitter is operational, which can drive you nuts for a while, heh.



....and they don't tell the public what they're doing so the frustrated user is left thinking it's a problem with the receiving equipment.....


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dagger666* /forum/post/17297271
> 
> 
> QUANTUM-FX ANT-101(ANT101) UHF/VHF Indoor TV Amplified ANTENNA or Winegard SS-3000 Amplified Indoor UHF/VHF Antenna
> 
> 
> I'm about 13 miles form NY city on Long Island and the Monoprice antenna can't get 7, and now 11 and starting to drop 13 for some reason. Been looking for a new indoor antenna that will not cost much so thinking of one of these.



High-VHF and an indoor antenna is often a recipe for frustration.


High-VHF doesn't penetrate structures as well as UHF does.


Try a simple VHF rabbit ears from Radio Shack for $10 to see if you can find a decent spot for the signal. Try different locations inside to see if you can find a "hot" spot.


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/17298517
> 
> 
> You could have an issue with the proper location of the antenna height to RF wavelength wave peak.
> 
> 
> Follow this link "Erecting a TV antenna" at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ , then follow this link "Choosing a mounting site."



Someone else posted that link before and I looked through it. Very illuminating.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tschmidt* /forum/post/17298530
> 
> 
> I experience similar anomalies here in southern NH. 38 (WSBK) and 44 (WGBX) are much worse then stations modeled weaker. Channel 7 (WHDH) and 25 (WFXT) come in all the time even though they model 5 and 10 dB lower then WGBX.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...befb1d6ecdfd6f
> 
> 
> We have a similar situation antenna is about 30 feet AGL which places it below treetop level.



Mine is actually only 15 feet and I have a fairly close and tall tree line. So I suppose I should be happy with what I have. Many of them will lose their leaves over the next few months so we'll see what happens. Could be very interesting.


Interesting about 38 and 44. They both have troublesome reception for me, as well. 7 sometimes gives me good signal strength numbers but doesn't want to actually work...could be interference. 25 works nicely now. How about your Boston CW or ION, 56.1 and 68.1?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/17298696
> 
> 
> Even signals from antennas on the same tower might vary significantly in actual signal quality due to variables related factors other than power.



I find TV Fool fairly accurate other than a couple of anomalies toward the fringe end of my list. I suppose that's why I was frustrated when it turned out to be less than 100% accurate.


----------



## bernieoc

Your reception discussion prompts my question.

I have a Wineguard PR-8800 and a CH3 only joined by UHF/VHF only connector/Joiners. Then thru a Wineguard HDP 269.

All Ch were UHF and one CH 3. all was well.

This week CH 34 switched to CH 13 and Reception dropped from 100% to 76% (on a DTV PAL DVR an over the air only HD DVR). The old analog from 13 could be picked up with a paper clip antenna.

My local Forum (Roanoke VA) had a comment that covering the small space between the two identical 11 step lader like reflectors with a 'mesh' would improve CH 13 reception on the PR-8800.

Any theoritical basis for this?

Also do I

1. lay a small strip over the approx. 1" gap

2. or cover the total two reflectors

3. Just connect each of the 11 ladder steps to its mate.

It is in the attic- easy to modify.

Thanks, I am not on here often but follow it every day.

Bernieoc


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17299951
> 
> 
> Interesting about 38 and 44. They both have troublesome reception for me, as well. 7 sometimes gives me good signal strength numbers but doesn't want to actually work...could be interference. 25 works nicely now. How about your Boston CW or ION, 56.1 and 68.1?\\



56 (WLVI) and 68 (WBPX) are problematical but not as bad as bad as 38 and 44. 56 comes in most of the time 68 about 50%. WLVI and WBPX both have DT-APPs to increase power so they ought to get better if that happens.


WHDH (RF 42) comes in all the time. I'm really glad they are staying on UHF. We have sperate VHF and UHF antennas. With WHDH on UHF we have no need for rotor. UHF points to Boston and VHF aimed at WENH. WMUR is a little off axis but it so strong it doesn't matter. We even get WMTW (RF 8) out of Maine on occasion.


The other stations WMUR (RF9) WENH (RF11) WGBH (RF19) WCVB (RF20) WBX (RF30) WMFP (RF18) WHDH and WFXT (RF31) all come in fine.


WPXG (RF21) the ION station out of NH comes in great but it requires use of rotor so we typically don't bother.


Here is a link to my setup:
http://www.tschmidt.com/writings/Des...%20antenna.htm


----------



## kevm14

Wow you documented everything! Very nice job. I ought to follow your example...


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tschmidt* /forum/post/17300549
> 
> 
> 56 (WLVI) and 68 (WBPX) are problematical but not as bad as bad as 38 and 44. 56 comes in most of the time 68 about 50%. WLVI and WBPX both have DT-APPs to increase power so they ought to get better if that happens.



I hope that, combined with raising my antenna a few feet, will allow me to receive them. Though right now it is not looking like I need WLVI as I get the off axis RI one. And I get the REALLY off axis ION but only Boston's WBPX promises some HD content (68.1 says 720p). But no such thing as too many channels, especially free HD OTA ones.



> Quote:
> WHDH (RF 42) comes in all the time. I'm really glad they are staying on UHF.



Ah, so are they RF 42 then? There is some weirdness associated to WHDH from what I've seen. First, both my Vista and Win 7 Media Centers say 7.1 is not the main channel...something about temp authority. And like I said, 7.2 shows signal but no picture. When I look at my Silicon Dust lineup , it shows a conflict for WHDH. Suggests RF 42 OR RF 7. And TV Fool says RF 42 for WHDH but lists no vChan ID!! So perhaps my problem is I need to manually tell my media centers what the deal is then it may work.


----------



## kevm14

I'm looking for a longer mast and I'd probably get another 3 feet or so with this . I can't find anything longer and there is just not much out there overall. Am I looking in the wrong places?


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17301585
> 
> 
> I'm looking for a longer mast and I'd probably get another 3 feet or so with this . I can't find anything longer and there is just not much out there overall. Am I looking in the wrong places?



I used a chain link fence pole from home depot. Maybe not the best solution, but it worked for me. There are various diameters depending on if you get railings or posts so I made sure it was sturdy enough for my length of mast. Some are obviously too thin and flexible but others are quite sturdy.


----------



## kevm14

Yeah that is a good point. It's just hollow tubing. It doesn't have to be "antenna mast" pipe, which is really no different from any other kind of tubing.


----------



## ctdish

I make up masts from here: http://www.dxengineering.com/Product...=136&DeptID=43 

John


----------



## kevm14

How do you join the lengths of 6 feet? The only thing I am familiar with would be a band exhaust clamp made for butt connections. Something like a 2" one of these or a 1" one of these . I'd need something between these sizes probably.


EDIT: Nevermind. You stack different diameters on each other, with the bottom obviously being the largest, and use their clamps. They look like regular hose clamps but I assume they are designed to hold the shaft from spinning in bad weather.


Do you think 1.5" for the bottom 6 feet and 1-3/8 for the top 6 feet is enough to hold up an 11 foot antenna like my Winegard 7697P?


----------



## holl_ands

Additional ways to NOT receive OTA signals:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/88182 


1) Indoor Passive Antennas were found to have Gains ranging from -6 dBd down to -15 dBd....or worse.

[MUCH WORSE THAN WHAT MOST ANTENNA MEASUREMENTS INDICATE.....]

[Perhaps they were referring to UHF-only antennas??? And if they were, why not say so???]


2) Indoor Amplified Antennas were NOT improving the situation and usually made it WORSE,

including amplified FM signals overloading the DTV.

[VERY UNEXPECTED AND CONTRARY TO MY EXPERIENCES.]

BTW: Second harmonics of FM stations interfere with Hi-VHF Ch7-13....not UHF.


3) People were "hiding" the antenna behind the TV or AV-Gear stack.

[DUH!!!! GUARANTEED TO KILL WHAT LITTLE SIGNAL THERE MIGHT BE....]


4) Interference from the AV-Gear, fluorescent lights, cordless phone base stations, et.al.

was frequently a problem....Part 15 rules should be reviewed.

[Q: WHERE'S THAT IN THE SETUP INSTRUCTIONS??? A: Just after the lightning warning???]

[BTW: Yet another reason why TV-BAND DEVICES (WSD) will be a problem....]


5) Location, Location, Location....moving the antenna HIGHER was generally better.

[BUT WATCH OUT IN APTs/CONDOs BECAUSE YOUR "ROOF" MAY CONTAIN METAL REBAR.]


6) Leakage of Cable TV signals were sometimes interfering with OTA reception.

[COULD BE DIFFICULT TO TROUBLESHOOT.]


7) People were confused by the ill-conceived "virtual channel" confusion and were NOT

aware that the REAL channel might be in a different band and require a different antenna.

[DUH....ANTENNA DISCUSSIONS WERE *MISSING* IN THE PSAs!!!!]


----------



## Rando01




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17301585
> 
> 
> I'm looking for a longer mast and I'd probably get another 3 feet or so with this . I can't find anything longer and there is just not much out there overall. Am I looking in the wrong places?



I bought army surplus heavy duty interlocking fiberglass poles, paid 1.00 per 4ft section, up 20ft and works great and dont move a bit.


----------



## onezero




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17301585
> 
> 
> I'm looking for a longer mast and I'd probably get another 3 feet or so with this . I can't find anything longer and there is just not much out there overall. Am I looking in the wrong places?



Home Depot has 10' lengths of electrical conduit in 1 1/2" and 1 1/4" dia. Also, RadioShack sells 10' and 5' 1 1/4" masts. Home Depot is cheaper, but not as pretty.


oz


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> It's just hollow tubing. It doesn't have to be "antenna mast" pipe, which is really no different from any other kind of tubing.



Yep, and a lot of commercial antenna masts sold are thinner, weaker, and pricier than common electrical conduit or chain link fencing tubing.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> My local Forum (Roanoke VA) had a comment that covering the small space between the two identical 11 step lader like reflectors with a 'mesh' would improve CH 13 reception on the PR-8800.
> 
> Any theoritical basis for this?
> 
> Also do I
> 
> 1. lay a small strip over the approx. 1" gap



Try laying a couple of 32" long aluminum tubes/bars, centered and connected to, the old reflectors and see if it does the trick.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> 4) Interference from the AV-Gear, fluorescent lights, cordless phone base stations, et.al.



Someone earlier on this forum mentioned noise from lawnmowers. Today, a neighbor down the street with a motorcycle went by and I noticed pixelation on RF channel 17. Signal strength at the time was 95%. When he came back by, the same pixelation occurred. I never noticed any interference from gas motors on UHF with analog.


----------



## Don F.

There is a post on today's Atlanta avs saying that a UHF antenna that receives vhf signals is not good, becasue of vhf noise. I receive three vhf stations on my mc4228, one of those ch 13 with an occasional audio drop even though the signal is in the 90s.

I'm thinking it just the nature of digital on vhf, and not the uhf antenna.

Some thoughts please....


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17303751
> 
> 
> Someone earlier on this forum mentioned noise from lawnmowers. Today, a neighbor down the street with a motorcycle went by and I noticed pixelation on RF channel 17. Signal strength at the time was 95%. When he came back by, the same pixelation occurred. I never noticed any interference from gas motors on UHF with analog.



It must have been an older carburated non-computer controlled engine. And he's probably running spark plugs without resistors or very low resistance plug wires. That causes a boat load of EMI and in cars this problem was looked into and solved pretty much the first time someone wanted to listen to the radio while driving.


----------



## kevm14

Either it's a coincidence or my aim plus all the limbing and removal of trees has actually improved my reception. I haven't had any cut outs on the off axis stations, CW and ION. I have a couple larger higher limbs to remove when I raise the antenna but I am now optimistic, especially given the properties of UHF.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Either it's a coincidence or my aim plus all the limbing and removal of trees has actually improved my reception.



No coincidence. Last year, I cut off a large basswood/lime tree limb that was in my path, and the channel that was on at the time went from snowy to crystal clear as the branch hit the ground.


> Quote:
> It must have been an older carburated non-computer controlled engine.



Yeah, Im sure of that, heh. But with analog uhf, it was never noticible.


----------



## kevm14

Based on the current aim the only thing directly in the path were some white pine limbs. Not exactly a big leafy oak or something. And I don't know why that would help stations that are completely off axis from this aim. But I'll take it for sure. I would recheck the signal strength on my channels and maybe try a few of the "dead" ones but House is recording and I still have only 1 tuner. I gotta build that multi-tuner HTPC. Come on Win 7 release...


Just a random comment on this whole project. While I was on my roof I guess a neighbor spotted me and later chatted me up about what I was working on. In general I've found people are very aware about ATSC though less aware of the quality of the HD content when it is being broadcast. And I have yet to run into a single person that is doing what I am doing, not even including the Media Center DVR setup. I guess people gave up on broadcast by the 80s and early 90s and never cared to look back. But they didn't have Hulu and Netflix then, either.


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17304068
> 
> 
> I guess people gave up on broadcast by the 80s and early 90s and never cared to look back.



I think transition to DTV is creating renewed interest in over the air reception for two reasons. Cheap folks like me would rather spend a few hundred dollars every couple of decades for an antenna rather the $50-100 a month for cable or Sat. At the other end we have audio and videophiles that cherish OTA picture quality because it is not transcoeded to squeeze a few more channels onto Cable or Sat.


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tschmidt* /forum/post/17305097
> 
> 
> At the other end we have audio and videophiles that cherish OTA picture quality because it is not transcoeded to squeeze a few more channels onto Cable or Sat.



As long as that station doens't have any subschannels you may be right. Now take a station like WTVF which is 1080i and it has not one but TWO subchannels. Well something has got to give.


----------



## kevm14

Not to mention, I also heard a theory that the networks may actually broadcast a more compressed version of the content, if only because their major customers are cable companies that have to compress it anyway. So you might be getting some inferior bitrate like 6Mbit encoded into the 19Mbit for broadcast. There would be no way to tell other than quality loss.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don F.* /forum/post/17303759
> 
> 
> There is a post on today's Atlanta avs saying that a UHF antenna that receives vhf signals is not good, becasue of vhf noise. I receive three vhf stations on my mc4228, one of those ch 13 with an occasional audio drop even though the signal is in the 90s.
> 
> I'm thinking it just the nature of digital on vhf, and not the uhf antenna.
> 
> Some thoughts please....



In general, sounds like mis-information....many users of Combo VHF/UHF Antennas say otherwise.

Since Preamps and Tuners have separate VHF and UHF sections, the third harmonic

products of VHF signals do not interfere with UHF.


Perhaps it was a comment made wrt to combining a Combo VHF/UHF Antenna with

another VHF Antenna???? This could degrade VHF performance since the noise and

interference would be the total from BOTH antennas. Which is why the JoinTenna

was invented.....and UVSJ Diplexer Combiners are used to merge VHF & UHF Antennas....


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don F.* /forum/post/17303759
> 
> 
> There is a post on today's Atlanta avs saying that a UHF antenna that receives vhf signals is not good, becasue of vhf noise. I receive three vhf stations on my mc4228, one of those ch 13 with an occasional audio drop even though the signal is in the 90s.
> 
> I'm thinking it just the nature of digital on vhf, and not the uhf antenna.
> 
> Some thoughts please....



It's the antenna.


The 4228 has a poor front to back ratio on VHF. This means that noise and reflections off the back are picked up all most as easily as the "main" beam.


An antenna designed for VHF has a high F/B ratio which reduces noise and reflections.


The source of the information is http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post17306079 


Channel 13 has a F/B ratio of just over 10 db. Channel 7 is 0 db. The best channel is 10 at 15 db F/B.


The idea that a 4228 is a good VHF antenna originated in Connecticut. WTNH-DT in New Haven is on channel 10. Unfortunately, you should not translate that success to other VHF channels.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17301585
> 
> 
> I'm looking for a longer mast and I'd probably get another 3 feet or so with this . I can't find anything longer and there is just not much out there overall. Am I looking in the wrong places?



You could always use galvanized water pipe.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17302050
> 
> 
> Do you think 1.5" for the bottom 6 feet and 1-3/8 for the top 6 feet is enough to hold up an 11 foot antenna like my Winegard 7697P?



Watch out for the gauge of the steel in the mast. The cheap one from Summit Source is 20 gauge. In my opinion that's too weak for your HD7697P.


This mast is galvanized steel and 16 gauge.

http://www.channelmasterstore.com/TV..._p/cm-1610.htm 


At first it looks expensive, but they don't charge extra for shipping.


----------



## john warfin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/17299757
> 
> 
> High-VHF and an indoor antenna is often a recipe for frustration.
> 
> 
> High-VHF doesn't penetrate structures as well as UHF does.




Actually the opposite is true. Higher frequencies penetrate less.


----------



## David-the-dtv-ma




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17306079
> 
> 
> It's the antenna.
> 
> 
> The 4228 has a poor front to back ratio on VHF. This means that noise and reflections off the back are picked up all most as easily as the "main" beam.
> 
> 
> An antenna designed for VHF has a high F/B ratio which reduces noise and reflections.
> 
> 
> The source of the information is http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post17306079
> 
> 
> Channel 13 has a F/B ratio of just over 10 db. Channel 7 is 0 db. The best channel is 10 at 15 db F/B.
> 
> 
> The idea that a 4228 is a good VHF antenna originated in Connecticut. WTNH-DT in New Haven is on channel 10. Unfortunately, you should not translate that success to other VHF channels.



I agree. I did not have much success with the bow tie antenna except when it is a single bow. The 4 bay had ghost on some of the channels when the analog was on the air that were not on the vhf uhf combo. I would get a vhf high band to receive the vhf channels. But if you do that & still use the uhf bow tie antenna you may need a uhf/vhf antenna joiner that includes filters. It would block any vhf signals from the uhf bow tie antenna. If they are not blocked they would interfere with the good signal from the vhf high band antenna. you would need to check the spec on the joiner to make sure it does block the signal that you do not want from the antenna on each port. I have a joiner & it does work.


----------



## hayj

Home Depot has some 16 gauge options as well in terms of the fencing. I didn't see any 12' sections online, but I think you may find a one piece solution there at a reasonable price.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hayj* /forum/post/17307459
> 
> 
> Home Depot has some 16 gauge options as well in terms of the fencing. I didn't see any 12' sections online, but I think you may find a one piece solution there at a reasonable price.



1" Black "iron" pipe:

http://www.homedepot.com/Building-Ma...atalogId=10053 


1" pipe is really 1.315" OD. The stock item at Home Depot is not galvanized. The wall thickness is substantial. The yield strength of "Black iron pipe" is not rated, but you can assume it to be in the 30,000 PSI to 35,000 PSI range. A steel mast should be rated at 40,000 PSI.


Wall thicknessess


16 gauge .0625

20 gauge .0375

schedule 40 pipe .133


The schedule 40 pipe will beat the strength of 16 gauge antenna mast by a factor of about 2:1 and 20 gauge by about 4:1.


If there is a plumbing supply store in your area call and ask for 1" schedule 40 galvanized pipe (unthreaded). Every TV U-bolt that I've seen will fit on 1.315" OD.


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17307230
> 
> 
> Watch out for the gauge of the steel in the mast. The cheap one from Summit Source is 20 gauge. In my opinion that's too weak for your HD7697P.
> 
> 
> This mast is galvanized steel and 16 gauge.
> 
> http://www.channelmasterstore.com/TV..._p/cm-1610.htm
> 
> 
> At first it looks expensive, but they don't charge extra for shipping.



I was talking about the aluminum masts linked by someone else but this also looks good. Thanks.


The aluminum ones are here . .058" wall 6063 aluminum. I was talking about stacking a 6' section of 1-3/8" OD on top of a 6' section of 1.5" OD, of this material. I think I'd rather do a 1 piece, though. Then again, a joint in the middle would likely make it easier to re-aim, as I could simply loosen the clamp and twist. Plus it's aluminum so it should be less likely to corrode and freeze in place.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17308386
> 
> 
> I was talking about the aluminum masts linked by someone else but this also looks good. Thanks.
> 
> 
> The aluminum ones are here . .058" wall 6063 aluminum. I was talking about stacking a 6' section of 1-3/8" OD on top of a 6' section of 1.5" OD, of this material. I think I'd rather do a 1 piece, though. Then again, a joint in the middle would likely make it easier to re-aim, as I could simply loosen the clamp and twist. Plus it's aluminum so it should be less likely to corrode and freeze in place.




.058 wall is too thin. Try this instead.

http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant...d=73&top_cat=0


----------



## kovax

I'm new to the forum, so forgive me if I'm covering something simple. I've searched through the forum, but didn't find quite my particular situation.


I have a very specific objective, to improve reception of Channel 2 (digital channel 25) from Pittsburgh. I'm located about 65 miles NW of the KDKA antenna.


I am fortunate to have a third story roof onto which I've mounted a 12' mast, getting me pretty high with no nearby obstructions. I mounted a DB8 UHF antenna connected to a CM7777 Pre-Amplifier. The output is split to the TV and to a Satellite DVR that integrates OTA signals. (I've have removed the split with little impact on reception).


The result has been pretty good. The satellite receiver indicates signal strength with a rating of 0 to 100. With this setup, channel 2 registers in the 60s, but the signal strength varies significantly. It will bounce around between 55 and 70 with some pixelation, but occasionally, it will just drop to 0.


My questions:

Is this normal behavior for a distant source? Does 0 just mean that the signal has dropped below some minimum for the tuner and so it reads 0, or is the signal actually going away completely?


Secondly, any suggestions for further improving reception strength or stability? I've read in these forums the difficulty of combining antennas pointed in different directions, but what about for pointing them in the same direction? I have room on the mast to add another antenna if that would help. If so what are your suggestions for antennas and setup?


Thanks, Dan


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kovax* /forum/post/17308843
> 
> 
> I'm new to the forum, so forgive me if I'm covering something simple. I've searched through the forum, but didn't find quite my particular situation.
> 
> 
> I have a very specific objective, to improve reception of Channel 2 (digital channel 25) from Pittsburgh. I'm located about 65 miles NW of the KDKA antenna.



Start at tvfool.com. It will show you what signal strength to expect. Here's the report for Warren, OH.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...befbff101160bc 


If Warren is close to your actual location, your 7777 preamp is overloaded.


This is what is involved with stacking identical UHF antennas:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/16bay.html


----------



## FL Surfer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *john warfin* /forum/post/17307252
> 
> 
> Actually the opposite is true. Higher frequencies penetrate less.



As proved by Buckaroo Banzai at the Banzai institute and latter stolen by John Smallberries at yoyodyne.

P.S. You will never get the Oscillation Overthruster


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *john warfin* /forum/post/17307252
> 
> 
> Actually the opposite is true. Higher frequencies penetrate less.



Actually you're wrong.


----------



## kevm14

Nice, $46 for 12 feet










I continue to try my problem stations, the two off axis ones and a Boston independent, and I still haven't seen a single hiccup. What are the chances that I will decrease my reception on these or any? I am basing this on some of the things I saw in that UHF diffraction page, particularly the effect trees have.


Also I finally got WHDH, 7.1. I was screwing around with editing channels in Vista Media Center, trying to maybe add the RF channel for 7. Then I happened to check the guide after thinking I failed and 7.1 was there.


Then there are the empty sub channels. On a couple channels I get, Win 7 MC on my laptop detected some sub-channels but the guide info just says "SIGN OFF." Does this mean they plan to utilize the subs some day? I'm afraid that if I remove them I'll never know they go live some day. But at the same time I am annoyed at the junk in my guide.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Then there are the empty sub channels. On a couple channels I get, Win 7 MC on my laptop detected some sub-channels but the guide info just says "SIGN OFF." Does this mean they plan to utilize the subs some day?



Yep. Of course, you could remove them and then scan again, say weekly, which is good idea for a while.



> Quote:
> Nice, $46 for 12 feet



Scrap metal yards are good source for cheap thick aluminum.


----------



## cpcat

For whatever reason, hi vhf digital doesn't seem to do as well as uhf does and this seems to especially impact indoor reception. This was somewhat of a surprise and many stations are either scrambling to move back to uhf or increase power. It may have been an underestimation of the power levels necessary to match the prior contours and this has been discussed a fair amount already elsewhere here at AVS.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *john warfin* /forum/post/17307252
> 
> 
> Actually the opposite is true. Higher frequencies penetrate less.



I would have been more accurate to state that, as a practical matter for the consumer, high-VHF DTV transmissions, at their substantially lower power levels, penetrates structures more poorly than do the higher powered UHF transmissions. This is due to the - guess what - difference in power levels.


I oversimplified for brevity.


----------



## The Wizard




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17310430
> 
> 
> Also I finally got WHDH, 7.1. I was screwing around with editing channels in Vista Media Center, trying to maybe add the RF channel for 7. Then I happened to check the guide after thinking I failed and 7.1 was there.



'HDH is giving up on VHF 7 soon if not already.

They have been simulcasting on VHF 7 and UHF 42 since shortly after the transition.

Soon they'll be using UHF 42 only, branded as 7 via PSIP...


----------



## RocketGuy3

I apologize in advance because I'm sure that this question has been asked a million times in this thread, but does anyone know the difference(s) between these two antennas? (Terrestrial DB2 and Eagle Aspen dtv2buhf)

http://www.amazon.com/Eagle-Aspen-Dt...4955127&sr=1-2 

http://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direc...m_cr_pr_sims_t 


Based on the reviews I'm reading, they work very similarly (in which case, I'd definitely pick the Eagle Aspen for the price difference), but the product description for the DB2 clearly states that it is multidirectional, while the Eagle Aspen's description does not. Do they have different directional properties?


Thanks a ton in advance.


----------



## Colm

They are both 2-bay bow-tie antennas. They will have similar properties. They aren't as directional as some other designs. Half power beam width will likely be in the range of something like 40 to 80 degrees depending on the channel and the antenna. Only way to tell is look at manufacturer's data. They are not omnidirectional. They are very good at rejecting signals from the back.

Here is another option.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

The DB2 has a beam-width of around 90°, pretty much the same as other 2- and 4-bay bowties.


----------



## Colm

Be careful of how you interpret marketing hype. No antenna like this has a half power beam width of 90 degrees for all channels. BTW one seller reports both 80 degrees and 90 degrees on the same page. The antenna might have it for one channel but probably considerably less for most. I cannot find the actual figures for the DB2, but the Winegard HD1080 shows 52 degrees for channel 44 and 80 for channel 32. And I doubt that AntennasDirect's engineers are significantly better than Winegards's.


----------



## jltv

Can I cut of the rear VHF portion off of an attic mounted antenna?


I have an 11 year old color master in my attic. I think it was rated for 100 miles. With an amplifier it has worked fine receiving OTH HDTV. We re-insulated the attic and I had to remove the antenna. It is a very small attic and it takes up a lot of room. I'm no longer using the VHF ability of the antenna, and it would give me a lot of room if I could cut the rear VHF part of the antenna off. I think that the antenna behind the coax connector is for VHF channels 7 - 12. Has anyone done this? Anything I need to look out for?


All my locals are mapped to UHF.


Thanks


- jl


----------



## MTVhike

UHF antennas: Several manufacturers offer both yagi and 8-bay reflector outdoor antennas (e.g. CM 4228 and 4248). What are the benefits and disadvantages of each?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Has anyone done this? Anything I need to look out for?
> 
> 
> All my locals are mapped to UHF.



Yeah, I used to use a uhf corner reflector that was salvaged from a badly damaged vhf/fm/uhf combo antenna. It worked well enough. Ive since modeled it and found that there are odd dips in the gain curve, but if the channels you need arent in the dip, you should be fine. Only way to know for sure is to try it, cutting it so it can be reassembled easily if need be.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> but the product description for the DB2 clearly states that it is multidirectional



Heh, thats just plain wrong, unless you interpret being able to physically rotate it as being multidirectional. It will pick up all points of the compass, just not at the same time in the same position, heh heh. Or if you interpret multidirectional as having a beamwidth of more than 1 degree, heh. Oddly, the courts and the FTC may interpret it that way, so as always, buyer beware. The prefix "multi-" is just what it means in advertising, which in effect could be multiple anythings.


If you take off the refector, you can make it bi-directional, with some loss in gain.


----------



## dagger666




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/17311978
> 
> 
> For whatever reason, hi vhf digital doesn't seem to do as well as UHF does and this seems to especially impact indoor reception. This was somewhat of a surprise and many stations are either scrambling to move back to UHF or increase power. It may have been an underestimation of the power levels necessary to match the prior contours and this has been discussed a fair amount already elsewhere here at AVS.



Oh so this is why all the HI VHF 7,11,13 have been lost. Stupid people should have just left well enough alone, if it isn't broken don't fit it. There must be another part at play because i did get 7,11,13 after i moved my antenna but as the summer went on all were lost one at a time. Well i decided had enough playing with the monoprice antenna so ordered the winegurd 3000 hoping it will bring back 7,11,13.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

My memory is bad. I dug up some polar plots that were emailed to me while back. Looks like 30-60° would be closer for the DB2/DB4 BW. My bad. Ken Nist has his sims of them over on hdtvprimer if you know where to dig.


The term "multi-directional" apparently was instituted by the CEA as part of its color-based antenna selector program (maybe?). I'm guessing it is defined somewhere in there, but since they require you buy in to read it, obviously, I've never read it.


If someone has come across a "real" definition of what makes an antenna "multi-directional", point me at it since I'd sure like to see it.


----------



## john warfin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BCF68* /forum/post/17310251
> 
> 
> Actually you're wrong.



To some the laws of physics are merely a suggestion.


----------



## john warfin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FL Surfer* /forum/post/17310239
> 
> 
> As proved by Buckaroo Banzai at the Banzai institute and latter stolen by John Smallberries at yoyodyne.
> 
> P.S. You will never get the Oscillation Overthruster




Don't need it. The Flux Capacitor has proven far more effective at inter-dimensional travel!


PS I am, in fact, currently posting from 8th dimension.


----------



## john warfin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/17312125
> 
> 
> I would have been more accurate to state that, as a practical matter for the consumer, high-VHF DTV transmissions, at their substantially lower power levels, penetrates structures more poorly than do the higher powered UHF transmissions. This is due to the - guess what - difference in power levels.
> 
> 
> I oversimplified for brevity.



Technically higher frequency has less penetrating ability all else equal. Power levels are a different matter. If I'm not mistaken the reason FCC allocated higher power to lower frequencies is because of their superior range ability. AFAIK power levels are regulated to minimize interference.


Radio Control hobbyists who have experience with 2.4ghz vs 72mhz at similar power levels quickly learn the truth about penetration.


----------



## SWHouston

MTVhike,

Your request for comparison may be a moot point, I don't think that the CM-4248 is being made any more.


But to pursue some comparison...

Do you actually need a full range (Ch 2-69) or would HiVhf/UHF do ?

Would a Yagi Type or Bow Tie be better for your Mount/Location ? (depending on the answer of question 1)

Can you/your location handle a narrow (15°) Beamwidth, or did you plan to use a Rotator ?


These and probably many other questions about the requirements for your *specific location* (which should be the focus your search) can be answered if you go to...
TVFool Transmitter Locater 

and get the information about your location. Having done that, there's probably not going to be much "comparison" required. There's an Antenna that should clearly stand out, as being the right one for you.


----------



## RocketGuy3

Thanks for the input, guys. I ended up going with the DB2. The Winegard seems nice, but based on the info I found at Antennaweb, it's a little more than I need, and it's pretty big, so it probably eliminates the option of using it in my living room (although I might be setting this up in the attic, anyways, not yet sure).


I have an old dipole with a loop antenna right now, and it can pick up maybe 8 channels, several of which will be pretty choppy, so I'm hoping this will be a significant upgrade. I'll be running the output through a splitter and then into both inputs of SiliconDust HDHomeRun dual tuner.


Should I expect any significant signal attenuation after the splitter?


EDIT: In case it matters, this is the splitter I will be using:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00..._ya_oh_product


----------



## Colm

An ideal two-way splitter delivers half the signal to each device. The signal that is delivered to each device will be 3dB down from the input. In real life, figure 3.5dB down because of insertion loss, not a significant difference.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The signal that is delivered to each device will be 3dB down from the input. In real life, figure 3.5dB down because of insertion loss, not a significant difference.



Whoa now, about 3 db is cutting the signal in half, pretty significant IMO, heh. Indoor antennas werent really designed to be split.


----------



## RocketGuy3

Damn... I was afraid of that. Think I should invest in an amp in that case? ... Maybe I should have gotten a bigger antenna afterall.


----------



## Colm

I didn't say the 3dB was not significant. That is up to the OP to determine. It is the difference between 3dB and 3.5B is not significant IMHO. Not an issue unless you are right on the cliff, and then your reception isn't going to be stable anyway.


----------



## systems2000

There are amplified splitters you can purchase.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Think I should invest in an amp in that case?



Of course try it without one. The typical distribution amps available at Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot, RS etc are pretty high noise. A low noise variable amp like the Kitz Technology one would be your best bet.


----------



## charliebeagledog

We are looking for digital TV antenna recommendations



We are have an old vhf/uhf antenna on our new Samsung 52 that when you walk across the room you often get distortion. We live ver close to all the TV towers in Milwaukee and need to find what he less obtouse but still effective antennas for digital tv might be.



What are the best Antennas? Which decent ones arent too huge? We will put it in a bay window on the front of our house.


thanks!


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jltv* /forum/post/17317068
> 
> 
> Can I cut of the rear VHF portion off of an attic mounted antenna?
> 
> 
> I have an 11 year old color master in my attic. I think it was rated for 100 miles. With an amplifier it has worked fine receiving OTH HDTV. We re-insulated the attic and I had to remove the antenna. It is a very small attic and it takes up a lot of room. I'm no longer using the VHF ability of the antenna, and it would give me a lot of room if I could cut the rear VHF part of the antenna off. I think that the antenna behind the coax connector is for VHF channels 7 - 12. Has anyone done this? Anything I need to look out for?
> 
> 
> All my locals are mapped to UHF.
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> - jl



Question: WHY do you not just mount it outside?? In an attic, you are losing as much as 12db in signal.....There is no reason NOT to put it outside...Federal law permits it and you get the BEST reception....even a vent pipe mount or eave mount would work...I dont understand why people stick with attic antennas...for that matter, you are not much better off than a pair of a rabbit ears with an amp on them!


----------



## Dr Touchtone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *charliebeagledog* /forum/post/17323730
> 
> 
> We are looking for digital TV antenna recommendations
> 
> 
> 
> We are have an old vhf/uhf antenna on our new Samsung 52 that when you walk across the room you often get distortion. We live ver close to all the TV towers in Milwaukee and need to find what he less obtouse but still effective antennas for digital tv might be.
> 
> 
> What are the best Antennas? Which decent ones arent too huge? We will put it in a bay window on the front of our house.
> 
> 
> thanks!



1) There is no such thing as a "digital" antenna...RF is RF to any antenna...what worked with analog works with digital.


2) IF You live THAT close to the transmitter sites (where you can see the towers), consider rabbit ears with a 75ohm output ...if that doesnt work, get a CM7777 and add that to the rabbit ears...bet that will solve your problems..(I have a friend 1 mile south of me...we are 15 miles from our TV tower sites; 1VHF and 4 UHFs; on a pair of RS rabbit ears and a CM7777 amp, he gets all the DTVs he wants to watch...though he plans to put an outside antenna up later on a Rohn tower. MY 20ft high VU90 with a CM7777 amp picks up a VHF DTV 60miles away with no problem (when pointed in their direction).


3) For you, the CM4228 may be a good one..exactly how far are you from the antenna farm??


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> What are the best Antennas? Which decent ones arent too huge? We will put it in a bay window on the front of our house.



For indoor antennas, Escape Velocity has extensive write up and testing here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779 



> Quote:
> EV's Favorites....so far
> 
> 
> RS 1880
> 
> RS 1892 UFO
> 
> RS DA-5200
> 
> RS Double Bow Tie
> 
> RS Single Classic BowTie
> 
> RS 1874 Budget
> 
> Petra SuperPower 32db(Cornet 645A)
> 
> Godar Model 1
> 
> Antennas Direc DB2
> 
> Antennas Direct ClearStream2
> 
> Channel Master 4149
> 
> Winegard SS-3000
> 
> Terk HDTVa
> 
> Terk TV-3
> 
> Terk TV-2
> 
> Philips Silver Sensor
> 
> Philips MANT510
> 
> Philips MANT940
> 
> Philips MANT950
> 
> RCA ANT806
> 
> RCA ANT108 (ANT110)



For $3.99, the RS Single Classic BowTie is hard to beat for uhf.


----------



## RocketGuy3

So my DB2 arrived in the mail today, and it's definitely an improvement, but there's still a couple channels I can't pick up with the rest of the channels because the towers are at a different angle (and possibly also because one of them is a VHF channel, and the DB2 is mostly a UHF antenna... stupid ABC).


Would it be possible to get a second antenna (whether or not it's the same antenna), place it at the proper angle for the channels I'm missing, and use some splitter ("backwards") to combine the output from both antennas into one good signal? Or would noise from both antennas nullify the good channels that the other antenna is picking up? Would I be better off just getting a bigger, higher gain antenna?


Thanks again... God I want to figure this out so I can drop my freaking cable TV service already.


----------



## Colm

DB2 isn't "mostly" a UHF antenna. It is a UHF antenna. It is not a VHF antenna.


The signal from two antennas can be combined. You have to be careful how you do it. If the signals are not in phase, it can be worse with two antennas than with one. If the signals are in phase, you can just combine them and get a stronger signal to your receiver. If not, the general approach is to use one or more filters before combining the signals so that each channel will come from only one antenna.


How many degrees apart are the missing channels from the ones you are getting successfully? And what is the VHF channel?


----------



## RocketGuy3

I said "mostly" because I've seen several people say that this antenna improved their signal strength for even VHF channels. In my case, the VHF reception was about the same as before if I had the antenna at the appropriate angle -- otherwise it was worse.


I think I have to rotate the antenna about 45 degrees to get the maximum signal I can get from the missing VHF channel. It's channel 8. Strangely, though, according to AntennaWeb, this channel is at the same angle as the other channels that I'm getting.


A few of the other channels occasionally still have less-than-ideal strength, though... so a bigger antenna might serve me well I think. Would it be feasible to get a DB8 and rotate one or two of the four pieces towards the tower of the missing channels?


----------



## kevm14

The only thing I can suggest is check as many directions of aim as you have the patience for because you might find a bearing that gives you everything you want.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I think I have to rotate the antenna about 45 degrees to get the maximum signal I can get from the missing VHF channel. It's channel 8. Strangely, though, according to AntennaWeb, this channel is at the same angle as the other channels that I'm getting.



Try attaching a couple of 36 inch rods, horizontally and centered, to the DB2s reflector. If channel 8 is fairly strong, that may do the trick for you.


----------



## systems2000

If RF 8 is the only VHF frequency you're after, get a dedicated VHF-high antenna (pointed at RF8) and combine that with your UHF. You'll need a UVSJ to do the trick.


How important is the other UHF frequency?


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17331327
> 
> 
> Try attaching a couple of 36 inch rods, horizontally and centered, to the DB2s reflector. If channel 8 is fairly strong, that may do the trick for you.



Isn't the wavelength of Ch 8 30 inches so wouldn't each rod need only be 15 inches? You're the expert so I'm just confused.


----------



## RocketGuy3

This channel is ABC, so it's pretty important for me to pick it up. ABC also has a couple other channels on this band that I want (weather channel, traffic channel). Any recommendations on a good VHF antenna? And/or a good VHF-UHF antenna?


I just realized that I might need to upgrade to the DB8 (or at least some bigger antenna) anyways since I'm moving to a townhome soon. Even though it's in the same area, there will be a row of about 3-4 other townhomes sharing walls between me and the general direction of most of these antennas. Being in a townhome, the HOA will probably not allow me to put an antenna on the roof, either, so it will have to be in my attic (which is still better than what I have right now, with the antenna just sitting on top of my entertainment center).


EDIT: One other question... would I have to worry about any kind of interference from power lines running perpendicular to the towers' signal path, about 500-600 feet behind my antenna?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Isn't the wavelength of Ch 8 30 inches so wouldn't each rod need only be 15 inches?



Channel 8s 1/2 wavelength is around 32 1/4", but with uhf bowtie reflectors used for vhf-hi, you want the length to be a bit longer. 32 inches would be good for channel 12 and 13, 36 to 40 inches would be good for channel 7 and 8.



> Quote:
> EDIT: One other question... would I have to worry about any kind of interference from power lines running perpendicular to the towers' signal path, about 500-600 feet behind my antenna?



You (shouldnt), but could have problems, but you really wont know until you try.


----------



## RocketGuy3

This channel is ABC, systems2000, so it's pretty important for me to pick it up. ABC also has a couple other channels on this band that I want (weather channel, traffic channel). Any recommendations on a good VHF antenna? And/or a good VHF-UHF antenna? EDIT: Oh, just saw you were asking about the other UHF frequency. In that case, not very important at all. Basically the only channel I'm really missing out on at this point is channel 8. I get everything else I want, although I will probably need to get either an amp or a bigger antenna to get the signal strength I need for all of them.


I just realized that I might need to upgrade to the DB8 (or at least some bigger antenna) anyways since I'm moving to a townhome soon. Even though it's in the same area, there will be a row of about 3-4 other townhomes sharing walls between me and the general direction of most of the antenna towers. Being in a townhome, the HOA will probably not allow me to put an antenna on the roof, either, so it will have to be in my attic (which is still better than what I have right now, with the antenna just sitting on top of my entertainment center), or maybe outside on the porch.


EDIT: One other question... is it possible for relatively nearby (~100m or so) power lines or transformers, to interfere with reception?


----------



## Don F.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17331327
> 
> 
> Try attaching a couple of 36 inch rods, horizontally and centered, to the DB2s reflector. If channel 8 is fairly strong, that may do the trick for you.



I have been looking for this suggestion. I use a cm 4228 for some of my stations and would like to pick up a pbs low power .15kw on ch 8 that is only 4 miles away. The pbs is about 70 degress off my normal direction, some days I get them some days I don't. Can I insert a rod somewhere on the 4228 that would help. Would it be added to the chicken wire, or touch the bow ties?


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RocketGuy3* /forum/post/17332420
> 
> 
> ABC also has a couple other channels on this band that I want (weather channel, traffic channel).



RF8 is not the same as Channel 8. Sub-channels are included within RF8. If ABC is all your really after, then my suggestion still holds.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RocketGuy3* /forum/post/17332420
> 
> 
> the HOA will probably not allow me to put an antenna on the roof, either, so it will have to be in my attic (which is still better than what I have right now, with the antenna just sitting on top of my entertainment center), or maybe outside on the porch.



The FCC ruled on this issue years ago and has forbidden HOA's from having such a rule.


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RocketGuy3* /forum/post/17332420
> 
> 
> Being in a townhome, the HOA will probably not allow me to put an antenna on the roof, either, so it will have to be in my attic (which is still better than what I have right now, with the antenna just sitting on top of my entertainment center), or maybe outside on the porch.



Systems 2000 is correct. See post #194 on the AVS OVER-THE-AIR DIGITAL TELEVISION RECEPTION FAQ: New to OTA? Start here! thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=611957&page=7 


Cheers.


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RocketGuy3* /forum/post/17329204
> 
> 
> So my DB2 arrived in the mail today, and it's definitely an improvement, but there's still a couple channels I can't pick up with the rest of the channels because the towers are at a different angle (and possibly also because one of them is a VHF channel, and the DB2 is mostly a UHF antenna... stupid ABC).
> 
> 
> Would it be possible to get a second antenna (whether or not it's the same antenna), place it at the proper angle for the channels I'm missing, and use some splitter ("backwards") to combine the output from both antennas into one good signal? Or would noise from both antennas nullify the good channels that the other antenna is picking up? Would I be better off just getting a bigger, higher gain antenna?
> 
> 
> Thanks again... God I want to figure this out so I can drop my freaking cable TV service already.



I use a CM 4228HD that picks up UHF and VHF channels.


----------



## RocketGuy3

Bah, I was really hoping this would be as simple as


1. Find a good tuner.

2. Find a good antenna.

3. Presto-spagettio, you just saved $60/month in cable bills.


I guess nothing is ever that easy, heh... I'll take a look at that page and see if it answers the rest of my questions. Thanks. I'm thinking I might be better off just getting a VHF/UHF antenna.


EDIT:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *klandry7* /forum/post/17333621
> 
> 
> I use a CM 4228HD that picks up UHF and VHF channels.



Including channels as low as 8? Do you know if you actually get any gain on those channels, or if the signals were just pretty strong to begin with?


----------



## charliebeagledog

Looking for a decent antenna but want to put it in our front bay windo and don"t want something thats too big or obnoxious looking.


Right now for our new Samsung 52 b750 we have an old set of rabbit ears that sometimes the picture gets interrupted when somewhen walks in front of the set.


What are some of the decent antennas that arent too big.



I'm withing 2-3 miles of every television tower in Milwaukee.


If theres an advantage toa powered antenna I could try that but i wouldnt think I need it?


----------



## systems2000

As pointed out many times within this thread, you would do better looking at this thread - EV's Best Top Rated DTV Indoor UHF Antenna Review Test Round-Up Guide .


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I have been looking for this suggestion. I use a cm 4228 for some of my stations and would like to pick up a pbs low power .15kw on ch 8 that is only 4 miles away. The pbs is about 70 degress off my normal direction, some days I get them some days I don't. Can I insert a rod somewhere on the 4228 that would help. Would it be added to the chicken wire, or touch the bow ties?



Hmm. The original CM4228 is already 40 inches wide. By the looks of it here http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html , its not that good for channel 8, but great for channel 9 and 10.


You could try sticking in 44 or 48 inch horizontal rods in the reflector to shift the curve lower.

Edit: Quick modeling shows adding the 44 or 48 inch rods doesnt do much to help channel 8 on the CM4228. They would increase Raw Gain about .6 dbi over what it is now, but the SWR remains unacceptably high at almost 27:1, meaning negative Net Gain. Another option to distort the vhf-hi gain curve would be to increase the reflector to element distance to 14 to 16 inches, but that would reduce your UHF gain. Sorry, it just looks like the CM4228 is stuck with a poor channel 8.


----------



## Don F.

Thanks, 300... I may try the new 4228hd if I can find a decent shipping rate.


----------



## dagger666

OK got my new Winegurd 3000 antenna and gave it a try. First thing i noticed is CBS,FOX single strengths have dropped a lot but the stations are watchable. I have the Wineguard on a table behind a fan right now while the Monoprice was near the top of my wall so I'm not to concerned about that. Got ABC back right away and as i held the antenna higher also got back 11 but lost it again when i put it back down. Figured i would move it around the wall, find the right spot and buy a floating shelf so it can rest on. Sad it can't be hooked to the wall but the shelf will look nice. What is that big plastic thing hooked to the antennas back, clear plastic with tap around it. How does that help, yes i know it's a bow design but don't see how it helped since the single should pass right through the clear plastic part.


----------



## SWHouston

dagger,


Here's a spec sheet on the...
Winegard SS-3000 Spec. Sheet 


It may help you understand it's capabilities. I generally don't like to even comment on an Indoor Antenna, just TOO many variables in the construction of the building and other factors. It would have been nice at least, to have seen a Chart on your location, the 3000 may not be the right antenna for you anyway.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don F.* /forum/post/17334697
> 
> 
> Thanks, 300... I may try the new 4228hd if I can find a decent shipping rate.



With Ch8 being at 70-deg, trying to get just ONE antenna to cover both directions

will be very, very difficult, if not impossible, cuz of the NULLS towards the sides.


You should buy or build a second Ch8 antenna and combine it with the CM4228

using a low loss UVSJ VHF/UHF Combiner. A simple Folded Dipole will provide a

Gain of about 2 dBi and the simple Circular Loop about 3-4 dBi....in the right

direction. If you still have problems, you'll need to add a reflector of some sort.


Several Hi-VHF DIY (e.g. Folded Dipole, Circular Loop w & w/o Reflectors) are found here:
www.imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *john warfin* /forum/post/17319544
> 
> 
> Technically higher frequency has less penetrating ability all else equal. Power levels are a different matter. If I'm not mistaken the reason FCC allocated higher power to lower frequencies is because of their superior range ability. AFAIK power levels are regulated to minimize interference.
> 
> 
> Radio Control hobbyists who have experience with 2.4ghz vs 72mhz at similar power levels quickly learn the truth about penetration.



Lower TV channels need LESS power (10's vice 100's of kilowatts for UHF)

because the PATH LOSS IS LESS. It's a function of both distance and frequency:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-space_path_loss 


Problems with VHF fall into two basic categories:


1) FCC underestimated the man-made noise levels, which affects both outdoor and

especially indoor reception due to the proximity of fluorescent lights, dimmers, motors,

microwave ovens, leaky computers and other A-V Gear. And completely ignore lightning storms....


2) FCC insisted on maintaining the fiction that people are supposed to be using a 6 dBd

(8 dBi) OUTDOOR Hi-VHF antenna at a 30-ft height (with less than 2 dB downlead loss).

Consequently Indoor Antenna users fall 4-6 dB short on Gain and fall much further

behind when VSWR loss (incl. EVM degradation) is calculated:
http://www.tvantenna.tv/papers/PFactorsV.pdf 
http://www.tvantenna.tv/papers/dtv%2...prediction.pdf 

A UHF Loop is inherently a much better "antenna" than difficult to tune VHF Rabbit Ears.....

As you can see from these papers, there are also OTHER factors that have been underestimated.


I've been collecting Indoor Penetration Loss data for quite some time, but there

is almost NOTHING wrt VHF penetration in modern homes. I have seen one study

cited (unidentified....), claiming that VHF has difficulties penetrating into

modern homes due to the use of chicken wire in stucco and aluminized foil "wraps",

allowing BETTER penetration of UHF freqs via window openings.


HOWEVER, I have also seen specs wherein modern "Low-E" glass attenuates UHF

by about 20 dB (but no data wrt VHF!!!!). So enjoy what's left of the summer.....


So I'm just going to surmise that YMMV......A LOT!!!!!


----------



## kovax




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17309922
> 
> 
> Start at tvfool.com. It will show you what signal strength to expect. Here's the report for Warren, OH. [link removed because I'm a newbie.]
> 
> If Warren is close to your actual location, your 7777 preamp is overloaded.
> 
> This is what is involved with stacking identical UHF antennas: [link removed]



I'm SW of Warren (Lake Milton) and TVFool shows my kdka reception at -95db compared to the -85db on the scan you show.


From reading other posts, preamp overload would call for pointing the antenna slightly away from direct. Do you think that's still the case given the updated signal strength from TVFool? I wonder especially as my signal strength seems to be stronger at night and in that case the signal is also much more stable. Is that a counter-indication of overload? I tried simply unplugging the power to the pre-amp, but have read elsewhere that that's not the same as taking the pre-amp out of the pathway.


Thanks for the link to the 16 bay. It doesn't seem too complicated. Use the same equipment to ensure that everything is symmetric. Identical cable lengths to the combiner. Match polarities.


Two questions: Can someone provide a good example (model number) of a "low-loss combiner" for this application? I notice in the pictures that the antenna was angled up. Is that because that location was in a valley? My view is essentially flat to the horizon. Do I need to be angled down or is that just knit picking at this point?


Thanks again for your reply


----------



## 300ohm

Yeah, and replacing a CM4228 with a new CM4228HD is NOT a good overall trade off.


----------



## RocketGuy3




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17331327
> 
> 
> Try attaching a couple of 36 inch rods, horizontally and centered, to the DB2s reflector. If channel 8 is fairly strong, that may do the trick for you.



What do you mean when you say "horizontally"? You mean parallel to the ground plane, right? But perpendicular to the plane of the reflector? Maybe it would be worth it for me to try something like that with my antenna... I'll start experimenting once I move in.


----------



## Don F.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17335758
> 
> 
> Yeah, and replacing a CM4228 with a new CM4228HD is NOT a good overall trade off.



guess I will get a combiner, straighten a coat hanger and go for it... I would think it would not be too difficult to get them, as they are only 4 miles away with a full 15 watts.

I had a pretty good signal on the 4228 until Wed and they completely went away.... I'm thinking they must be having transmitter problems.


----------



## Davinleeds

My 4228 works very well for vhf 8, but I have it on a rotor and leave it at it's sweet spot.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> "horizontally"? You mean parallel to the ground plane, right? But perpendicular to the plane of the reflector?



Yep, but let me double check that with modeling. Is your DB2 the one with 1" X 4" mesh behind it ?

And actually, a 23" - 24" loop with combiner may be a more compact indoor solution for you as well. Especially if the vhf-hi channel is in a different direction from the uhf ones. The DB2 would fit inside the loop.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> guess I will get a combiner, straighten a coat hanger and go for it... I would think it would not be too difficult to get them, as they are only 4 miles away with a full 150 watts.



I would splurge for the 1/4" inch tubing and make a 23" loop as holl_ands suggested. You only need 6 feet of it, and a coat hanger doesnt have enough material, heh.


----------



## Don F.

well, the coat hanger didn't work. I am puzzled by the signal strenght, today at 90 one minute and gone the next. The reason I think they may have problems GPB TV's main transmitter is on ch 8 in Stone Mt. Ga, which I received very well until they activated their lp transmitter here in Toccoa, it too is on ch 8. When the local signal went dead

I was able to pick the Stone Mt. signal again on my "Atlanta" antennas

(ya1713).


Would the loop tubing be like "ice maker" tubing?


I have sent an email to one of their engineers.... maybe it is them....


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Would the loop tubing be like "ice maker" tubing?



Yeah. Use whatever is cheapest, but you do want it to hold its shape.

Follow holl_ands analysis here:
http://www.imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops


----------



## Don F.

Thanks 300, Printed the info and will give it a try tomorrow...


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kovax* /forum/post/17335663
> 
> 
> I wonder especially as my signal strength seems to be stronger at night and in that case the signal is also much more stable. Is that a counter-indication of overload?



This is a good indication that you need a higher gain antenna.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kovax* /forum/post/17335663
> 
> 
> I notice in the pictures that the antenna was angled up. Is that because that location was in a valley? My view is essentially flat to the horizon. Do I need to be angled down or is that just knit picking at this point?



Aim for the horizon.


----------



## systems2000

If you put the loop in a Faraday Cage, you could point the antenna at the main transmitter on Stone Mt. GA and probably get good results (unless the local transmitter is very close and has a good signal strength, then point it there). Without some sort of protection from one of the transmitters, the loop will not help.


----------



## systems2000

 RocketGuy3 , I still think you would have a solid setup using a VHF-High antenna with your 4228 and run the coax from both through the UVSJ (See above post # *10416* ).


----------



## Don F.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/17337862
> 
> 
> If you put the loop in a Faraday Cage, you could point the antenna at the main transmitter on Stone Mt. GA and probably get good results (unless the local transmitter is very close and has a good signal strength, then point it there). Without some sort of protection from one of the transmitters, the loop will not help.



Are saying the two signals are canceling each other out? The Stone Mt. ch 8 is 70 miles away at 228 degress 21 kw, the local is 4.6 miles away .150 kw at 334 degress los. tv fool says co-channel is possible. In gptv's orginal request for a local ch they ask for and got dt 10... I protested that it would kill WXIA dt10 out of Atlanta, to my surprise they ask for and received a switch to ch 8. I am not in the Atlanta dma, so they could have stayed with dt 10 but didn't which I appreciate, but sounds like they have a problem. Of course I am one of a handful of people in my town that would ever notice.


P S I turned my ya1317 away from Atlanta, and toward the local ch 8 got 100 strength, but the signal continued to pop in and out.


----------



## RocketGuy3




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17336470
> 
> 
> Yep, but let me double check that with modeling. Is your DB2 the one with 1" X 4" mesh behind it ?
> 
> And actually, a 23" - 24" loop with combiner may be a more compact indoor solution for you as well. Especially if the vhf-hi channel is in a different direction from the uhf ones. The DB2 would fit inside the loop.



According to the measurement I just took, it's about 1" X 2.75", but I'll give that idea a try once I move. If that doesn't work, and/or the signal there is any weaker than it is now, I think I might just go all out and get an HD8200U and stick it in the attic. It's a bit more than I wanted to spend, but I'm pretty sure it'd cover all my bases.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

dagger, the Quantum FX ANT 101 is a better antenna on both UHF and VHF HI, and VHF Low, than the Winegard SS 3000.


However it is a better than average indoor antenna. Seems like it will work for you, on a tricket shelf.


The Winegard SS3000 is into the -10 dBd range on VHF Hi (then add 10db amplification). The FX ANT 101 is about 0 dBd then add 36 db amplification. However you really should just be adding 3 dB amplification on either of them for the amplifier....but that gets a bit complicated.


Simply put the QFX ANT 101 is about 10 dB better than the Winegard SS3000 on VHF High.


If the Winegard ends up being unsatisfactory, there are options.


----------



## dagger666

I had the information from tvfools.com up before but here it goes again, I'm only 13 miles form the city and something must have changed to take all the vhf channels away.


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...03fb5cc5507be4


----------



## SWHouston

dagger,


Take another look at your Chart, your ABC/WABC, PBS/WNET and CW/WPIX are VHF stations. An Antenna is chosen to fulfill the channels in the "REAL" column. You have a couple other VHF stations available, but, I'd suggest you aiming for your 290°-304° Farms.

Given your overall low signal strength, you'd be better off with a Rooftop Antenna and a Pre-Amp. Can you do that?


----------



## john warfin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/17335605
> 
> 
> VHF has difficulties penetrating into
> 
> modern homes due to the use of chicken wire in stucco and aluminized foil "wraps",allowing BETTER penetration of UHF freqs via window openings.
> 
> 
> HOWEVER, I have also seen specs wherein modern "Low-E" glass attenuates UHFby about 20 dB (but no data wrt VHF!!!!).



IMO your link on free-space path loss (FSPL) is somewhat unrelated to the subject of penetration. We are more interested in trees, walls, and roofs than vacuum.


I'm an EE working with RF for over half century but must admit OTA TV is not my area of specialty. And RF, particularly high-frequency, can be very peculiar and unpredictable. But myself and most others in the field generally accept that low frequencies have much better penetration.


A RS S90 UHF/VHF yagi, when it was in the attic under asphalt roof, pulled in two VHF stations well but pretty much zilch on UHF. I cut off the small UHF yagi with it's reflector (1 minute job w/hacksaw) and mounted it on a pole outside the window. Suddenly 30 some additional UHF stations. Just for yucks I swapped positions and guess what? UHF back down the drain again.. little change in VHF. Both bands contain stations with similar TVfool strengths. This summarizes my only experience with TV reception and penetration.


Can't say too much about aluminized insulation or stucco grid other than mesh size is very wavelength dependent. Thick solid metal effects all frequencies similarly as far as penetration.


I do have significant experience with effects of glass on 72mhz, FMS/GMRS, GPS, FTA sat, XBee (900 and 2400), WiFi, etc.. I found glass will attenuate high frequencies far more than low. At least until you get past IR up into the visible. Try getting WiFi or FTA through a window. Much less of a problem with 72mhz or 400mhz.


My general impression is high frequencies are LOS with poor penetration while low is better at cutting through trees and roof. Of course UHF may be "better" from antenna size viewpoint but that's another subject.


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *john warfin* /forum/post/17319472
> 
> 
> To some the laws of physics are merely a suggestion.



Hey Einstien signals that have the most issues with indoor reception


1) Low-VHF

2) High VHF

3) UHF


Using your logic the opposite is true. Also it's amazing how my wireless G signal coming from my router that's at 2300 MHz( 3.5-5 times higher than the UHF TV band ) can be picked up in a house made of brick over 250 feet away. Amazing how cell phone signal can penetrate buildings. What frequency are they on again?


As some other guy said it's about the power levels. You just can't generically state that VHF can penetrate better than UHF without any other info.


----------



## john warfin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BCF68* /forum/post/17339724
> 
> 
> Hey Einstien signals that have the most issues with indoor reception
> 
> 
> 1) Low-VHF
> 
> 2) High VHF
> 
> 3) UHF
> 
> 
> Using your logic the opposite is true. Also it's amazing how my wireless G signal coming from my router that's at 2300 MHz( 3.5-5 times higher than the UHF TV band ) can be picked up in a house made of brick over 250 feet away. Amazing how cell phone signal can penetrate buildings. What frequency are they on again?
> 
> 
> As some other guy said it's about the power levels. You just can't generically state that VHF can penetrate better than UHF without any other info.



Yes I can. Watch this:


"VHF can penetrate better than UHF"


Here, it is again, twice in a row:


"VHF can penetrate better than UHF"

"VHF can penetrate better than UHF"

























Apparently you've choosen to ignore my comment about "all else equal" (including power level). And then proceed to ignore it in your own examples.


"Lisa... In this house we *OBEY* the laws of thermodynamics" -Homer Simpson


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don F.* /forum/post/17338243
> 
> 
> Are saying the two signals are canceling each other out?



At those directions, power levels, and distances, it's very possible. Your P.S. statement is another good indicator.

*NOTE:* I originally posted: "_Without some sort of protection from one of the transmitters, the loop will not help._" Maybe I should have said "_…the loop *may* not help._"


----------



## john warfin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BCF68* /forum/post/17339724
> 
> 
> Also it's amazing how my wireless G signal coming from my router that's at 2300 MHz( 3.5-5 times higher than the UHF TV band ) can be picked up in a house made of brick over 250 feet away.



BTW IEEE 802.11g is 2400mhz not 2300mhz.


----------



## EscapeVelocity

Oops, I meant the Quantum FX ANT *102* is a better antenna than the Winegard SS3000 on VHF LO and HI and UHF.


----------



## jausenbaugh

I just dropped my DISH and am going to try the OTA thing. I'm in Hopkinsville, KY and am primarily looking to pick up stations out of Nashville about 55 to 65 miles away. I would really like to try an attic mount in my single story house and avoid mounting some beast 15 feet over my house if at all possible. The terrain between me and the towers is not terribly hilly. There are some fairly large trees in my yard and neighborhood but no tall buildings or other structures.


I have run an analysis on the tvfool.com website and a link to the results is below. I really only want to pickup the Nashville stations in the 135 to 146 degree range. Any suggestions on what equipment might work best for me would be greatly appreciated!


www[dot]tvfool[dot]com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d03fb1f9efaaa35


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jausenbaugh* /forum/post/17341869
> 
> 
> I just dropped my DISH and am going to try the OTA thing. I'm in Hopkinsville, KY and am primarily looking to pick up stations out of Nashville about 55 to 65 miles away. I would really like to try an attic mount in my single story house and avoid mounting some beast 15 feet over my house if at all possible. The terrain between me and the towers is not terribly hilly. There are some fairly large trees in my yard and neighborhood but no tall buildings or other structures.
> 
> 
> I have run an analysis on the tvfool.com website and a link to the results is below. I really only want to pickup the Nashville stations in the 135 to 146 degree range. Any suggestions on what equipment might work best for me would be greatly appreciated!
> 
> 
> www[dot]tvfool[dot]com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d03fb1f9efaaa35



If you can get it in your attic (I wouldn't bother!), a large, full-band antenna such as the WG 8200 HD (or similar) would be suggested.


I wouldn't give an attic install high odds of being successful with those forecast numbers...


----------



## Don F.




systems2000 said:


> At those directions, power levels, and distances, it's very possible. Your P.S. statement is another good indicator.
> 
> 
> The Stone Mt. signal is booming in today with no sign of the local. I haven't recieved a reply from Ga. Public tv to my inquiry about the problem. Today being Columbus Day they are probably closed. That "box" may be the only solution, unless they make a change, don't know what that would be.
> 
> Thanks for your help and 300....


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I wouldn't give an attic install high odds of being successful with those forecast numbers...



Yeah, at 55 to 65 miles away, (about my distances) youll need all the signal you can get. You lose anywhere from 6 to 25+ db in the attic. The trees are another problem. Even with an outdoor install, you will want a clear path to the transmitter of at least a few hundred feet.


----------



## RocketGuy3




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/17337891
> 
> RocketGuy3 , I still think you would have a solid setup using a VHF-High antenna with your 4228 and run the coax from both through the UVSJ (See above post # *10416* ).



I have the DB2, not the CM4228, but same thing I suppose. Do you have any recommendations on a good, high-gain VHF-high antenna? I can't seem to find much middle ground on VHF antennas -- it looks like I have to choose between either bunny ears with a loop (which don't seem to cut it in my area) or massive, $100+ outdoor/attic antenna. That's why I was mentioning the HD8200U earlier.


----------



## SemiChemE




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RocketGuy3* /forum/post/17343005
> 
> 
> I have the DB2, not the CM4228, but same thing I suppose. Do you have any recommendations on a good, high-gain VHF-high antenna? I can't seem to find much middle ground on VHF antennas -- it looks like I have to choose between either bunny ears with a loop (which don't seem to cut it in my area) or massive, $100+ outdoor/attic antenna. That's why I was mentioning the HD8200U earlier.



The Winegard YA-1713 is supposed to be one of the better VHF-high antennas with raw gains in the 8-10 dBd range. It's not quite as good as the HD8200U or other large outdoor antenna's (~2-3db less), but costs considerably less and should do quite a bit better than Rabbit Ears. Personally, I didn't have much luck with it, but considering I was trying for an attic mount to pick up a 2Edge diffraction station 65 miles away, it was a long shot. At some point, I'll probably see how it does up on the roof, but I haven't had any time recently.


----------



## RocketGuy3

Hmm, that does seem like a pretty good option. I guess one of those combined with my DB2 using one of these should do the trick?

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...iners&sku=UVSJ 


Given that the antennas are on different bands, I wouldn't have to worry about any phasing problems, right? Will this combiner isolate the proper bands from each antenna?


----------



## holl_ands

Here's H&E paper (sec 6) citing a 1963 report that says NYC penetration loss is HIGHER for VHF than UHF:
http://www.copyright.gov/docs/shvera...r-attach-B.pdf 

Note that it mixes antenna height in with penetration loss, so it's hard to separate....

Counterintuitive? Yes. Accurate? Hard to say without access to the actual studies.

Unfortunately, recent studies in Europe have omitted VHF, cuz they apparently don't use it anymore....


Here's an example of current experts citing higher building penetration loss at VHF than UHF:
http://www.acrodyne.com/PDF/Portable_Means_Power.pdf 


BTW: The free space loss equation was intended to show that it takes much less power at VHF

to provide the same receive signal strength as at UHF. This is the first step in determining

the DIFFERENCES between VHF and UHF, the others being antenna Gain (& VSWR Losses),

Penetration Loss and several others (Foliage Loss, Clutter Loss, et. al.)


====================================================

FYI: I posted links to (mostly UHF) Indoor Penetration Loss and Antenna Height Gain studies here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=14035356 


There is a more recent report on a very extensive indoor loss (and antenna height)

field test for UHF TV and summarizes results for some Cell Phone frequencies:

"Extensive Penetration Loss Measurements and Models for Different Building Types

for DVB-H in the UHF Band, Plets, Verloock Martens Gauderis & Deventer,

IEEE Trans on Broadcasting, Vol55 No2 Part I of II, June 2009 ":
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/lo...hDecision=-203 


Test area was Ghent, Netherlands collecting data on a variety (100 total) of building types.

Results for more modern buildings may be higher due to use of foil wraps and Low-E glass.

For example, "Coated" Office Buildings had 20-25 dB loss on first two floors.


It also has a very useful list of references. Tables III & VI summarize 602 MHz results:

Normal House (aka "Mansion"): 8.2 dB (standard deviation = sigma=3.7 dB).

This is consistent with Apartment results, although with a much higher sigma.

[PS: Table III Total for Apartments is clearly in error.]

Literature average cited for House: 11 dB (sigma= 6 dB).


Penetration Loss decrease with increasing antenna height was also measured.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RocketGuy3* /forum/post/17343349
> 
> 
> Hmm, that does seem like a pretty good option. I guess one of those combined with my DB2 using one of these should do the trick?
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...iners&sku=UVSJ
> 
> 
> Given that the antennas are on different bands, I wouldn't have to worry about any phasing problems, right? Will this combiner isolate the proper bands from each antenna?




Yes, that is the purpose of a UVSJ (aka UHF/VHF diplexer).


Modest physical size high-VHF antennas include the 5-element Yagis from Antennacraft and ChannelMaster (both inexpensive) or the new C5 from Antennas Direct that is a loop-in-front-of a reflector.


One thing I've noticed about the C5 is that is does a fair job on certain UHF channels. I've measured gain (referenced to a dipole) of between -5 and + 5 dB depending on the channel in use. The response curve has a bit of a roller-coaster curve to it on UHF.... Of course, it's bigger (has to be so it will be resonant at high-VHF) than a DB2 and it's a lot more expensive.


BTW, we haven't seen your TVfool data. That would be quite helpful to have in hand when giving specific advice.


----------



## systems2000

You could also use the Antennacraft Y10-7-13 or the AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 

The Winegard YA 1713 is a 10 element antenna.


----------



## RocketGuy3

Here's my tvfool. Looks like just about everything I want is in that ~200 degree area.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...03fbcdecc582ff 


The signals look stronger than they seem to have been for me so far, but maybe just an attic mount can fix that. I'll probably give the DB2/1713 combo a try.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

The 1713 is probably overkill with numbers like those. Plus, keep its physical size in mind as to how it might fit in your attic (or not).


I'd try one of the mid-range high-VHF antennas first.


You're right - "Stupid ABC!"


----------



## john warfin




holl_ands said:


> Here's H&E paper (sec 6) citing a 1963 report that says NYC penetration loss is HIGHER for VHF than UHF:
> http://www.copyright.gov/docs/shvera...r-attach-B.pdf
> 
> Note that it mixes antenna height in with penetration loss, so it's hard to separate....
> 
> Counterintuitive? Yes. Accurate? Hard to say without access to the actual studies.
> 
> Unfortunately, recent studies in Europe have omitted VHF, cuz they apparently don't use it anymore....
> 
> 
> Here's an example of current experts citing higher building penetration loss at VHF than UHF:
> http://www.acrodyne.com/PDF/Portable_Means_Power.pdf
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for those links (let's face it you are go-to guy in that dept.). Very educational. I read and saved them to disk. However the Dishnetwork guys never provide UHF/VHF links or actual data but simply state:
> 
> 
> "The largest impediments to the adoption of M/H service by VHF stations are the inferior gain of small handheld device antennas and, perhaps counter-intuitively, the increase in building penetration losses at these lower
> 
> frequencies. Both impediments are based upon the relative size of receive antennas and building apertures, such as outside windows, compared to the wavelength of the signal."
> 
> 
> The fact that they use the term "counterintuitive" at all bolsters my point that with RF in general low freq has a rep for better penetration. And, again, my own experience dealt with attic and roof issues instead of antenna size and windows which seem to be the major factors in their conclusion.
> 
> 
> The Sinclair/Acrodyne paper also states that building penetration is better for UHF but provide little basis other than referring to Bendovs site which seems more concerned with interference and hardware design.
> 
> 
> It's true most of my "intuition" regarding TV comes from years of experience with other wavelengths. And maybe I'm biased because it's much harder to put the VHF antennas outside and allow little UHF ones indoors. My own experiment showed the opposite however. It would be interesting if others repeated a similar test (attic/roof not antenna size/apertures etc.).
> 
> 
> May just be TV wavelengths have decided laws of physics are merely suggestions.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jausenbaugh* /forum/post/17341869
> 
> 
> Any suggestions on what equipment might work best for me would be greatly appreciated!



In your case I'd opt for a Winegard HD7082P. I wouldn't consider the attic, but 3' or so above the roof line should be enough. Add a HDP-269 preamp for better UHF performance.


----------



## dagger666




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SWHouston* /forum/post/17339145
> 
> 
> dagger,
> 
> 
> Take another look at your Chart, your ABC/WABC, PBS/WNET and CW/WPIX are VHF stations. An Antenna is chosen to fulfill the channels in the "REAL" column. You have a couple other VHF stations available, but, I'd suggest you aiming for your 290°-304° Farms.
> 
> Given your overall low signal strength, you'd be better off with a Rooftop Antenna and a Pre-Amp. Can you do that?



Yes i know they are VHF, that is why all are lost now. Moved the Wineguard to about the same high as the Monoprice antenna was and all stations have returned. Try and find someone to install roof top antenna,3 people never showed so this looks like it will work out fine.


----------



## RocketGuy3




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/17345468
> 
> 
> The 1713 is probably overkill with numbers like those. Plus, keep its physical size in mind as to how it might fit in your attic (or not).
> 
> 
> I'd try one of the mid-range high-VHF antennas first.
> 
> 
> You're right - "Stupid ABC!"



That's what I thought, but based on the only-decent performance of my DB2 at my current place, I figured I'd need an upgrade. I'm pretty sure the 1713 will fit in my attic, though.


... But I'm getting ahead of myself. I'll see how my antenna performs once I move in.


----------



## blackngold75

I posted something similar in the Philly OTA forum, but thought I'd seek input from those in this forum: I am ready to go OTA-only, and need guidance finding the right antenna. I want to mount outside, on the roof. Most stations from Philly-area are on the same basic direction, about 33 miles away. Problem is: I need to pick up VHF6 and VHF 12, so I can't do the UHF-only I was originally planning for. Any suggestions on a good antenna for this? One on-line retailer suggested the Winegard MS-2000, but I don't trust those antennas that don't look like antennas. I want the Philly stations - anything else is gravy. Here is the plot from tvfool - thanks to anyone who takes the time to read this and comment.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...03fb0d58e09de4


----------



## jausenbaugh




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/17342336
> 
> 
> If you can get it in your attic (I wouldn't bother!), a large, full-band antenna such as the WG 8200 HD (or similar) would be suggested.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't give an attic install high odds of being successful with those forecast numbers...





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17346961
> 
> 
> In your case I'd opt for a Winegard HD7082P. I wouldn't consider the attic, but 3' or so above the roof line should be enough. Add a HDP-269 preamp for better UHF performance.



Do you think something smaller in size like a ClearStream4 mounted on the roof would work for me? I've seen several reviews on Amazon and a couple of other sites where people said they were getting great signal with this antenna from 60+ miles out.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *blackngold75* /forum/post/17350429
> 
> 
> I posted something similar in the Philly OTA forum, but thought I'd seek input from those in this forum: I am ready to go OTA-only, and need guidance finding the right antenna. I want to mount outside, on the roof. Most stations from Philly-area are on the same basic direction, about 33 miles away. Problem is: I need to pick up VHF6 and VHF 12, so I can't do the UHF-only I was originally planning for. Any suggestions on a good antenna for this? One on-line retailer suggested the Winegard MS-2000, but I don't trust those antennas that don't look like antennas. I want the Philly stations - anything else is gravy. Here is the plot from tvfool - thanks to anyone who takes the time to read this and comment.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...03fb0d58e09de4



The Winegard 7082 or 7084 should work well for all your channels. I would personally lean towards the 7084 because of it's higher UHF gain.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jausenbaugh* /forum/post/17350497
> 
> 
> Do you think something smaller in size like a ClearStream4 mounted on the roof would work for me?



Absolutely not!


The Internet reports do not apply to you. The C4 is a UHF antenna. You have three VHF stations in your city.


If you like the C4 for some reason, you'll also need a CS600 below it and a UVSJ.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *blackngold75* /forum/post/17350429
> 
> 
> I am ready to go OTA-only, and need guidance finding the right antenna.



I'd go with a Winegard HD7015. If you put it on a rotor, you could get a handful of stations in other directions.


If you want to avoid a rotor for additional stations, you could add WGAL with an Antennacraft Y5-7-13 and a channel 8 Jointenna.

http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master..._bxgy_e_text_c 


Stations from other directions get more complicated and costly.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17352157
> 
> 
> Absolutely not!
> 
> 
> The Internet reports do not apply to you. The C4 is a UHF antenna. You have three VHF stations in your city.
> 
> 
> If you like the C4 for some reason, you'll also need a CS600 below it and a UVSJ.



The C4 would probably do fine on the UHF channels, but, as TG mentioned, you have three VHF channels including one that is on VHF LOW! Just driving that point home.


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jausenbaugh* /forum/post/17350497
> 
> 
> Do you think something smaller in size like a ClearStream4 mounted on the roof would work for me? I've seen several reviews on Amazon and a couple of other sites where people said they were getting great signal with this antenna from 60+ miles out.



I had a ClearStream4 and caught no VHF. I switched to a Channel Master 4228HD and now get the VHF stations and more UHF than before.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *klandry7* /forum/post/17353360
> 
> 
> I switched to a Channel Master 4228HD and now get the VHF stations and more UHF than before.



Be careful. The 4228 can work on hi-VHF, but not well on low-VHF. Low VHF is channels 2-6.


Channel 5 is one of jausenbaugh's must-have channels.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I'd go with a Winegard HD7015.



Yeah, that should work fine for the Philly stations, and is reasonably priced.


----------



## blackngold75

Thank you all for the input. Should I also consider a preamp if I am going to split this between 2 tuners?


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *blackngold75* /forum/post/17353978
> 
> 
> Thank you all for the input. Should I also consider a preamp if I am going to split this between 2 tuners?



I use the Channel Master 3414 4-output RF distribution amplifier to split between 2 TVs and a DVR.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ss_T12_product


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Should I also consider a preamp if I am going to split this between 2 tuners?



Yes and especially if you are going to use more than 40 ft of coax, which you probably will. Stay away from the RS preamps, and get a low noise one from CM or Winegard or Kitz.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *blackngold75* /forum/post/17353978
> 
> 
> Thank you all for the input. Should I also consider a preamp if I am going to split this between 2 tuners?



A preamp/distribution amp is a good idea, but try it first without it, you may get lucky.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *blackngold75* /forum/post/17353978
> 
> 
> Thank you all for the input. Should I also consider a preamp if I am going to split this between 2 tuners?



You'll likely need a pre-amp with the 7015.(But I would try without it first)


I have used the higher gain 7082 in signal areas stronger than yours & have been dissapointed with it's UHF performance.(The VHF is excellent though) A pre-amp was needed for reliably receiving real channels 48, 27, & 50 with this TV FOOL report.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...03fb3e3f2e3332


----------



## kevm14

I put together my HTPC and the tuner I chose is the Avermedia Duet. It appears to be at least as good as the USB tuner I was using previously, which is cool considering it splits the signal internally to 2 tuners.


Going through the signal strength test in Windows 7 Media Center (which flies with this tuner, by the way) I have some channels being reported as decent reception but they don't tune in. I know it could be a driver thing with the tuner (and I don't expect you guys to help me with that part) but what if this is a symptom of FM overload? Wouldn't that mainly affect VHF or is the problem that it overloads the tuner preventing it from tuning other channels clearly.


As a refresher, here is my TV Fool report and here is my FM Fool report.


I am aimed at around 50° and have recently cleared even more branches and some smaller trees. Oddly I seem to have lost performance on a few of the problem stations. It's either a coincidence or something else is going on. I still need to raise it which should put me into a stronger section of the diffracted UHF signal.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Going through the signal strength test in Windows 7 Media Center (which flies with this tuner, by the way) I have some channels being reported as decent reception but they don't tune in.



Which specific channels ?


----------



## kevm14

Channels I didn't get before on the USB tuner.


The two that come to mind are CW 56.1 (RF 41 @ 29°) and, oddly, Fox 61.1 (71 miles, 2 edge, RF 31 @ 289°...explain that one).


The CW 28.1 has degraded since I last posted about it coming in...38.1 is very marginal.


Btw, while you are looking at my list, I do get some of the poor channels in the -70dBm range. Fox WFXT RF 31 (virtual 25.1 even though it isn't shown) seems to work well. I get 46.1. And I think I get 27.1 though it is univision so I don't have it in my guide. These all have -68 to -75 dBm signal power.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Channels I didn't get before on the USB tuner.
> 
> 
> The two that come to mind are CW 56.1 (RF 41 @ 29°)



That one you should get, so its odd you dont. Maybe later.


> Quote:
> oddly, Fox 61.1 (71 miles, 2 edge, RF 31 @ 289°...explain that one)



Probably just a fluke, and you wont see it often.


----------



## kevm14

To be clear, those channels have enough bars to have a picture but they don't actually tune in. I was asking if strong FM could cause this. Can it?


----------



## rabbit73

Your fmfool report for zip 02852 (from p 344):


----------



## kevm14

Yeah...I already linked to it. Can FM cause a problem with UHF channels as a property of the tuner itself? Obviously the RF channels are nowhere near each other.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Can FM cause a problem with UHF channels as a property of the tuner itself?



It shouldnt, unless something is very very wrong. I have even stronger FM stations (50 KW, -.3 dBm) only 1.2 miles away and dont have any problems now. In the 70's though, a good FM filter was needed for channel 6.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Yeah...I already linked to it.



Actually, since you mention it, you didn't. The link in your post 10472 is for the page to enter the required info to generate the report (but not the report itself), which is why I posted it again so the other guys wouldn't have to run fmfool for your zip given in your tvfool report.


> Quote:
> Can FM cause a problem with UHF channels as a property of the tuner itself?



As a temporary test you could insert a UVSJ with the VHF port terminated with a 75 ohm cap. This will block FM & VHF signals, but will tell you if FM signals are causing tuner overload that affects UHF signals, and that an FM trap might help. The filter between the common port and the UHF port is a high pass filter that has low loss.


Please stick to using the real RF channel number rather than the virtual channel number that has a decimal point. It's less ambiguous because the virtual number doesn't always indicate the correct band, but the real number does. Or more completely, for example, WGBH 2.1 on RF 19. The 2.1 makes us think of a VHF-low channel, but it's really on UHF 19. The virtual number system was adopted to maintain the original identity of the station, but it doesn't tell us what antenna is needed.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17361263
> 
> 
> oddly, Fox 61.1 (71 miles, 2 edge, RF 31 @ 289°...explain that one).
> 
> 
> Btw, while you are looking at my list, I do get some of the poor channels in the -70dBm range. Fox WFXT RF 31 (virtual 25.1 even though it isn't shown) seems to work well.



WFXT is shown as 22.7 db NM. The actual RF channel is 31, the same as WTIC with a NM of -11.2 db. So you can get the stronger channel 31, but not the weaker one. That would be normal.


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17363063
> 
> 
> WFXT is shown as 22.7 db NM. The actual RF channel is 31, the same as WTIC with a NM of -11.2 db. So you can get the stronger channel 31, but not the weaker one. That would be normal.



Oh wow. I didn't even realize that. Duh. You know what's really strange is when I try tuning into 61.1 it doesn't work. You'd think it would pull up 25.1 but maybe ATSC is more than just tuning into an RF channel. Maybe it also needs to know the Vchan matches. Neat.


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/17363043
> 
> 
> Actually, you didn't. The link in your post 10472 is for the page to enter the required info to generate the report (but not the report itself), which is why I posted it again so the other guys wouldn't have to run fmfool for your zip given in your tvfool report.



Oops, you're right. I guess TV Fool works differently. The FM fool never changes the URL to something I can copy, but TV fool does.



> Quote:
> As a temporary test you could insert a UVSJ with the VHF port terminated with a 75 ohm cap. This will block FM & VHF signals, but will tell you if FM signals are causing tuner overload that affects UHF signals, and that a FM trap might help. The filter between the common port and the UHF port is a high pass filter that has low loss.



So you think it's worth trying? I guess it would have to be some property of the tuner being cranky about strong RF signals over too wide a band. I don't even know if that's likely, which is why I asked. I do know that NTSC tuners didn't care anywhere near as much about too strong a signal, but ATSC does. I guess it is similar to what happens when you over drive a transistor amp vs a vacuum tube one.



> Quote:
> Please stick to using the real RF channel number rather than the virtual channel number that has a decimal point. Or more completely, for example, WGBH 2.1 on RF 19. The 2.1 make us think of a VHF-low channel, but it's really on UHF 19. It's less ambiguous because the virtual number doesn't always indicate the correct band, but the real number does.



Yeah I'm all over the place. My bad.


----------



## MTVhike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SWHouston* /forum/post/17319574
> 
> 
> MTVhike,
> 
> Your request for comparison may be a moot point, I don't think that the CM-4248 is being made any more.
> 
> 
> But to pursue some comparison...
> 
> Do you actually need a full range (Ch 2-69) or would HiVhf/UHF do ?
> 
> Would a Yagi Type or Bow Tie be better for your Mount/Location ? (depending on the answer of question 1)
> 
> Can you/your location handle a narrow (15°) Beamwidth, or did you plan to use a Rotator ?
> 
> 
> These and probably many other questions about the requirements for your *specific location* (which should be the focus your search) can be answered if you go to...
> TVFool Transmitter Locater
> 
> and get the information about your location. Having done that, there's probably not going to be much "comparison" required. There's an Antenna that should clearly stand out, as being the right one for you.



Thanks, SWHouston. My question was intended to be more general. I already have the CM4248 installed inside my attic, with marginal success. On a few UHF stations, I get up to 70% signal strength (with a CM7777 preamp), but some I can't get at all. I know that a rooftop mount would be better, but for me, that is difficult. I was considering getting a 4228 and mounting it on the outside of the triangular end of my house - the normal to that surface is about 15 degrees away from the stations I wish to receive. However, if I can get onto my roof, I suspect a yagi might be better, maybe an Antennacraft MXU59.


I will get an Antennacraft Y10-7-13 antenna for high VHF purposes (I am currently using an external folded dipole, again with marginal success), and will connect it to the VHF input of the 7777.


Mike


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> I guess TV Fool works differently.



Yes, it does. Before tvfool gave us the URL in bold type near the top of the report, we had to click on "save" to store it on our hard disk and then post it as an attachment or use an image host, which is what I did, if we wanted it to appear in the post. You still have to do that with fmfool. Before I complete a long post I usually click on "Go Advanced" and then preview to proof the text and check that the links are OK. The links are active in the preview mode, but they are not yet showing in the thread.


> Quote:
> So you think it's worth trying? I guess it would have to be some property of the tuner being cranky about strong RF signals over too wide a band. I don't even know if that's likely, which is why I asked. I do know that NTSC tuners didn't care anywhere near as much about too strong a signal, but ATSC does. I guess it is similar to what happens when you over drive a transistor amp vs a vacuum tube one.



The test with the UVSJ will rule out fundamental overload from signals below UHF, but it doesn't rule out harmonics and spurious intermod signals from nearby transmitters that fall in the UHF band. That would require a spectrum analyzer and a person trained in tracking down intermod problems.

*Digital Rules* has a few words to say on the topic:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...6&postcount=35 


And then look at the NAB-MSTV converter box report:
http://www.nabfastroad.org/NAB-STV%2...y-report1.html click on Digital Converter Box Report which is:
http://www.nabfastroad.org/NAB-STV%2...report.doc.pdf 


Go to p 21 of the pdf, (4 of 36) in the attachment, Test Results, General Tests, Overload tests of converter box tuners that must exceed the NTIA spec of -5.0 dBm.


And then go to p 47 of the pdf, (30 of 36) in the attachment, Table A4-2 Overload test results


If you make overload calculations using the NTIA figure of -5.0 dBm and the dBm figure from tvfool or fmfool you have to add in the antenna and preamp gain. If you are making NM calculations, you only add the antenna gain. A preamp does makes the signal stronger, but it makes the SNR worse because it adds its own noise. Andy Lee has an excellent post on his *Official TV Fool forum* thread that has two diagrams of what happens to the signal on its way to the tuner. The second diagram shows how the preamp adds its noise while adding gain which makes the SNR worse. Notice also that the antenna adds its gain without harming the SNR:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=397 


I don't have any figures for the overload performance of other tuners, but it is my impression that the overload performance of CECBs is superior to many other tuners because they had to be built to meet the NTIA spec.


Do you have any other equipment, besides your laptop and the roof antenna, to watch TV like a set in another room connected to cable to make signal reception comparisons?


I suspect that the problems that you are having with some channels are from a reduction in signal quality which causes more bit errors which brings you to the "digital cliff" from changing signal propagation, off-axis antenna aim, or multipath problems from the remaining trees.(You can see why I like the signal *quality* bar of the Apex DT502.)


Do you still have trouble with WLWC 28.1 on RF 22 and WSBK 38.1 on RF 39 (hope I got your problem channels right) when you aim your antenna directly at them?


----------



## stockwiz

just installed a winegard HD-1080 in my hard right next to the dish using diplexers to connect the antenna to the dish coax... working great without preamps or anything... all the channels 35 miles away come in good.. didn't expect such good performance given my location down in a valley of sorts with no direct line of sight.


No need to pay for locals after all... little antenna mounted about 8 feet up does the job well with good signal strength as well.


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/17371866
> 
> 
> Do you still have trouble with WLWC 28.1 on RF 22 and WSBK 38.1 on RF 39 (hope I got your problem channels right) when you aim your antenna directly at them?



Yes. I'd say 38 is slightly worse than 28 but both have still been giving me problems, despite the further clearing of branches and trees, and the change in tuners. I may need to experiment with aim again, even though I thought ~50d was the best. It is windy and somewhat rainy this morning as I make this latest report.


Taking everything into account the following stations are giving me broken up performance or no picture (as listed) right now:

4.1 (RF 30) gives 4-5 bars but sometimes 2

[See below] 7 (RF 42) is black despite giving 5 consistent bars in the signal strength test

28.1 (RF 22) gives 5 but sometimes 2....

36 (RF 21) sometimes 5-6, sometimes 2

38 (RF 39) is black and gives 2 bars in the test, every once in a while shows 5

46.1 (RF 10) is black and gives 2 bars

69 (RF 17) gives 5-6 bars but sometimes 2


EDIT: Something interesting happened with Vchan 7. Win 7 actually showed 2 RF channels available (by priority) for this channel, RF 7 and RF 42. Interestingly TV fool appears to have incomplete info about Vchan 7 (WHDH) as well. After telling it not to use RF 42 but to use 7, both 7.1 and 7.2 display with the consistency that the 5 bar strength would indicate (no breakups). Perhaps they are broadcasting on both RF channels at the moment...


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Yes, WHDH is currently simulcasting.


TVfool's data engine is only capable of utilizing one broadcasting frequency, so Andy probably selected either the most recent filing or hand selected the one that is most probable to survive the current period.


----------



## kevm14

Well RF 7 works great and RF 42 is basically dead. I hope 7 survives unless they'd crank up the power on 42 instead.


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17375934
> 
> 
> I hope 7 survives unless they'd crank up the power on 42 instead.



My understanding is FCC approved request to stay on RF-42.


Works out well for us as both NH stations are on VHF. We use separate antennas with VHF aimed at WENH, and UHF at Boston stations.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/17371866
> 
> 
> And then look at the NAB-MSTV converter box report:
> http://www.nabfastroad.org/NAB-STV%2...y-report1.html click on Digital Converter Box Report which is:
> http://www.nabfastroad.org/NAB-STV%2...report.doc.pdf
> 
> 
> Go to p 21 of the pdf, (4 of 36) in the attachment, Test Results, General Tests, Overload tests of converter box tuners that must exceed the NTIA spec of -5.0 dBm.
> 
> 
> And then go to p 47 of the pdf, (30 of 36) in the attachment, Table A4-2 Overload test results
> 
> 
> If you make overload calculations using the NTIA figure of -5.0 dBm and the dBm figure from tvfool or fmfool you have to add in the antenna and preamp gain. If you are making NM calculations, you only add the antenna gain. A preamp does makes the signal stronger, but it makes the SNR worse because it adds its own noise. Andy Lee has an excellent post on his *Official TV Fool forum* thread that has two diagrams of what happens to the signal on its way to the tuner. The second diagram shows how the preamp adds its noise while adding gain which makes the SNR worse. Notice also that the antenna adds its gain without harming the SNR:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=397
> 
> 
> I don't have any figures for the overload performance of other tuners, but it is my impression that the overload performance of CECBs is superior to many other tuners because they had to be built to meet the NTIA spec.



When CRC tested Zenith "5th Gen" Prototype (Sep2003), they found desired signal overload at -2.3 dBm.

When CRC tested Samsung Prototype (Aug2005), they found it could tolerate the highest level their

testbed could apply (> 1.5 dBm).

In the Converter Box test above, they found a single channel overload level of about 1 dBm (+/- 1 dB).

So they all seem to be about the same, except the Zenith *prototype* overloaded a few db early.


Converter Box tests above ONLY investigated what happens when the DESIRED

signal strength is too strong (e.g. more than -5 dBm) and did NOT investigate

desensitization when an UNDESIRED signal is too strong. The input level for

the widest dynamic range (*Spurious Free Dynamic Range*) would be perhaps

20 dB LOWER than the single channel overload level (e.g. somewhat HIGHER

than the 1 dB Compression spec level):
http://www.odyseus.nildram.co.uk/Sys.../Linearity.pdf 
http://www.arl.army.mil/arlreports/2007/ARL-TR-4235.pdf 


Overload desensitization WAS investigated in STB/DTVs PRIOR to release of CECBs:
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/document...s-03-30-07.pdf 


SFDR discussion, links and calculator for overload desensitization can be found here:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota 

FYI: Max Preamp input levels for maximum dynamic range with 2-8 strong inputs:

HDP-269: -15 to -23 dBm

CM7777: -36 to -44 dBm


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tschmidt* /forum/post/17376027
> 
> 
> My understanding is FCC approved request to stay on RF-42.
> 
> 
> Works out well for us as both NH stations are on VHF. We use separate antennas with VHF aimed at WENH, and UHF at Boston stations.



Well that works out nice. I hope they crank up the power on 42 when 7 goes offline because I am watching it now and it's perfect, while 42 is black.


----------



## dsopfe

I'm new here and don't know a lot about this, but from looking at TV Fool it looks like I probably need a UHF/VHF multi-directional antenna. Is that correct? Does anyone have a suggestion of an antenna that would fit my needs? The top 8 channels are the ones I care about.


Thanks


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dsopfe* /forum/post/17377211
> 
> 
> I'm new here and don't know a lot about this, but from looking at TV Fool it looks like I probably need a UHF/VHF multi-directional antenna. Is that correct? Does anyone have a suggestion of an antenna that would fit my needs? The top 8 channels are the ones I care about.
> 
> 
> Thanks



4 Bay UHF, any brand

5 element VHF, Y5-7-13

UVSJ combiner

no preamp


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17377747
> 
> 
> 4 Bay UHF, any brand
> 
> 5 element VHF, Y5-7-13
> 
> UVSJ combiner
> 
> no preamp



..or a suburban area U/V combo that gets high-VHF off the rear about as well as the front. The Antennas Direct V10 is an example that would work in a single antenna. An HBU22 from Radio Shack would also work fine for $40.


You don't need any real gain. As long as you don't have any multi-path, a simple loop and rabbit ears equivalent should be all you'd need.


With a 60+ dB NM, a cardboard box would likely work! Those two VHF stations should come in off the back of almost anything you throw up there, even if you put a meant-for-UHF antenna up there.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/17376262
> 
> 
> Converter Box tests above ONLY investigated what happens when the DESIRED signal strength is too strong (e.g. more than -5 dBm) and did NOT investigate desensitization when an UNDESIRED signal is too strong. The input level for the widest dynamic range (*Spurious Free Dynamic Range*) would be perhaps 20 dB LOWER than the single channel overload level (e.g. somewhat HIGHER than the 1 dB Compression spec level):



Does that mean that Kevin is already in trouble with his approx -22 to -28 dBm FM signals even before adding antenna gain?

*holl_ands*: What would be your calculations for his stiuation, and what would be your conclusions based on those calculations?


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dsopfe* /forum/post/17377211
> 
> 
> I'm new here and don't know a lot about this, but from looking at TV Fool it looks like I probably need a UHF/VHF multi-directional antenna. Is that correct? Does anyone have a suggestion of an antenna that would fit my needs? The top 8 channels are the ones I care about.
> 
> 
> Thanks



The CM 4228HD should work with stations that close. I have mine pointed east to pick up channels 60 miles away and also pick up the channels north 25 miles away.


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/17378258
> 
> 
> Does that mean that Kevin is already in trouble with his approx -22 to -28 dBm FM signals even before adding antenna gain?
> 
> 
> How would that calculate out in his case, and what would be your conclusions?



Good question. I haven't had a chance to run any numbers yet but I hope to.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Does that mean that Kevin is already in trouble with his approx -22 to -28 dBm FM signals even before adding antenna gain?



He cant be. His FM signals are very weak compared to mine. I have -0.3 dBm from a 50KW FM station 1.2 miles away, and Im just fine with all my converter boxes and pc tuner cards.


----------



## kevm14

Hmm ok. After I straightened my vchan 7 problems out, the rest I think is just due to interference, diffraction, etc. As I watch the signal test cycle through the channels, the problem ones go in and out. I will try re-aiming, including directly at the stations that are giving me problems, and if I am lucky, raise it up before winter hits.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/17377768
> 
> 
> .HBU22 from Radio Shack would also work fine for $40.
> 
> 
> You don't need any real gain. As long as you don't have any multi-path, a simple loop and rabbit ears equivalent should be all you'd need.



You're right, multipath is a potential problem. It just so happens that the VHF stations are in one direction and the UHF are in others. An HBU-22 would not be as optimum as the two antenna solution.


----------



## holl_ands

A couple of "must reads" re FM interference to Hi-VHF TV:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/82716 
http://www.wrightsaerials.tv/resourc...terference.pdf 


Unfortunately, Preamp and Tuner specs don't SAY what the susceptibility levels are.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/17382492
> 
> 
> A couple of "must reads" re FM interference to Hi-VHF TV:
> http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/82716
> http://www.wrightsaerials.tv/resourc...terference.pdf
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, Preamp and Tuner specs don't SAY what the susceptibility levels are.



Interesting that in the first link Charlie Rhodes suggests a high pass filter, which is just what I suggested to Kevin as a temporary test. Charlie suggests a HPF that attenuates below CH 7; I suggested a HPF that attenuates below CH 14 (1/2 of a UVSJ) because it's inexpensive, easy to find, and Kevin was concerned about FM signals affecting UHF reception:


> Quote:
> Fig. 3 shows our results with the FM signals as received at my home roughly 14 miles or so from the FM towers in Portland.
> 
> 
> Their total received power is –26 dBm, some 10 dB stronger than any DTV signal here......
> 
> 
> The good news is that FMI can be eliminated by installing a 75 ohm FM band stop filter at the input to the afflicted DTV receiving appliance. A much lower-cost alternative is a 75 ohm high pass filter (HPF) which attenuates FM signals and any low band VHF DTV signals. In many communities, there will be no DTV signals on Channels 2 through 6, so a high pass filter will work fine. However there are some communities with one or more DTV stations on low band channels. A way around this would be an A/B switch to bypass the HPF when a low VHF band channel is desired.


----------



## kovax

I'm adding an second 8-bay antenna (AntennasDirect db8) to my antenna mast to make a 16-bay antenna as per the instructions on hdtvprimer.com as suggested to me on this forum.


In the primer for building a 16 bay it says: "There is a chance that you will mix up the polarities such that the two antennas subtract instead of add. After the antenna is fully hooked up, you should rotate the antenna to check for this pattern. If so then you have to reverse the connections on one of the antennas."


My question: The output of the AD DB8 is a 75 Ohm coax connection, not the 2-wire output of some antennas. With this setup, is polarity still an issue? If so, what is the solution? Turn the antenna upside down? Disconnect and turn the antenna's transformer box upside down?


I'll be using the Wingard CC 7870 2-way Antenna Joiner Coupler to join the signals.


Thanks, Dan


----------



## cpcat

If it's a hard-wired PCB balun, then you'd assume it's correct. Some of those baluns simply have a ferrite balun inside a black box though so you might check.


You should easily be able to tell if the polarity is correct. If you are in phase, you have a strong forward lobe. In other words, you have a strong signal pointing directly at the station. If you are out of phase, you have a forward null with large side lobes. This means you'd get almost no signal pointing directly at the station but you'd get some signal pointing off-axis.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17382421
> 
> 
> You're right, multipath is a potential problem. It just so happens that the VHF stations are in one direction and the UHF are in others. An HBU-22 would not be as optimum as the two antenna solution.



No, it wouldn't. However, if the HBU22 has a F/B of 10-15 dB (just guessing) and he has over 60 dB NM, an "optimum" solution could easily be replaced by one that is simpler, cheaper, and still offers more than adequate signal headroom by catching the the high-VHF stations off the rear lobe of the antenna.


You're right, your solution is an excellent one based on classic ideas. It will work without problems. My suggestion was one that goes a bit out of the box and requires a bit of rethinking of the "classic" methods.


FWIW, a V10 has nearly bi-directional reception on high-VHF and I'd suggest it first since I've played with it and am comfortable with its performance. The HBU22 was suggested since it's inexpensive and should be in the stockroom of a local retail store.


As always, YMMV.


----------



## holl_ands

Presuming the assemblers ALWAYS connected the wires inside the same way and NEVER made a mistake.....

I would open up the Baluns and do a physical comparison.....


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/17386803
> 
> 
> Presuming the assemblers ALWAYS connected the wires inside the same way and NEVER made a mistake.....
> 
> I would open up the Baluns and do a physical comparison.....



The DB8 baluns are PCBs, not any kind of ferrite balun.


Ken Nist has a photo on his website and it is accurate.


To reverse the polarity of one of the antennas, hang it upside down.


----------



## systems2000

After reading the article on FM Interference, I decided to create a second order distortion products spreadsheet of my own. Since I'm 2-edge reception and VHF-High reception has been a real issue for a lot of viewers, I looked at FM stations down to -50dBm (I have another 11 down to -60dBm). My reception levels for the Baltimore and D.C. stations on RF7, 9, 11, & 13 are within the range of -100dBm to -110dBm.


Now to understand/comprehend the authors reference to -84dBm noise cut-off and -68dBm level.


I also contacted Tinlee.com about their products, and they created a drawing using their products, that would be useful, for my location. I like how the setup brings all my really strong stations in on one antenna. What I found most interesting was their use of double filters.


I reviewed their "reception quality" of "adjacent channel" "*NOTE:*" (see table) and find it interesting that the channels they are concerned about are some of my best received channels.


*RF Channel1**RF Channel2**Off-Axis Direction**SL Spread*7863°33dB3839155°67dB3940155°Not Listed @ TVFool


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/17387266
> 
> 
> To reverse the polarity of one of the antennas, hang it upside down.




I like novel thinking. Very good idea.


----------



## 257roberts

I need a indoor antenna for my zip 36577. The transmitters are no more than 10 miles from me. I have the homemade DB-4 antenna made from coat hangers but it looks "ghetto" and this antenna needs to be presentable. The DB-4 antenna works great though in my location. I was thinking of the Philips Silver Sensor (unpowered), the or something off eBay that looks like a knock-off of the same thing. I don't want to drill holes in my wall to get a antenna outside. Thanks for any suggestions.


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *257roberts* /forum/post/17388695
> 
> 
> I need a indoor antenna for my zip 36577. The transmitters are no more than 10 miles from me. I have the homemade DB-4 antenna made from coat hangers but it looks "ghetto" and this antenna needs to be presentable. The DB-4 antenna works great though in my location. I was thinking of the Philips Silver Sensor (unpowered), the or something off eBay that looks like a knock-off of the same thing. I don't want to drill holes in my wall to get a antenna outside. Thanks for any suggestions.



The Silver Sensor doesn't pick up VHF. Your FOX, WALA, is on VHF channel 9. You need an antenna with rabbit ears for VHF like this one.
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_209HDTV....html?tp=12610


----------



## kevm14

Interesting update. Ever since trimming the latest set of branches and smaller trees, I have completely lost 28.1 RF 22 and 38.1 RF 39. Though last night I was actually watching 38.1 and it worked well. That was around 11pm.


The antenna was aimed at about 50d, through the new clear area I made. Just now I was sick of these two channels being 2 out of 6 bars (though everything else is pretty strong) and I moved it, on a whim, to about 32d. I came back in and rescanned for signal and to my surprise 28.1 is now 5 bars and mostly works. In addition I have picked up 44.1-4 RF 43 at 5 bars. 38.1 shows 4-5 bars but is marginal still. 56.1 RF 41, Boston CW, scans at 4-5 bars but works like 38.1, very broken up. I don't believe it is a simulcast/guide issue. Boston ION 68.1 RF 32 still is 2 bars. I also lost ION 69.1 RF 17 (2 bars).


Most of my other stuff is a full 6 bars with a few 5s.


Kind of amazing an adjustment of a little less than 20 degrees did all that. Also interesting because it's pointed to the left of my new path with tree coverage less than 50 feet from the antenna.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/17386803
> 
> 
> I would open up the Baluns and do a physical comparison.....



And look for what exactly to indicate improper/proper phasing?


IF they are PCB baluns AND they aren't phased identically, I'd be looking for a different antenna manufacturer.


In practice, it's not difficult to tell whether the phasing is correct. If (in the case of a PCB balun) it's necessary to turn the antenna over to phase it properly for stacking I'd call the manufacturer and demand a properly manufactured antenna.


Remember that the length of coax must be exactly the same per antenna up to the combiner.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Kind of amazing an adjustment of a little less than 20 degrees did all that. Also interesting because it's pointed to the left of my new path with tree coverage less than 50 feet from the antenna.



Sounds like youre catching those signals on the bounce from somewhere. AFAIK, trees mostly absorb RF signals (except maybe when they are totally soaking wet) instead of bouncing off RF.


----------



## kevm14

I am thinking even a 6 foot raise might make a huge difference. 3 channels are right on the edge and the rest are basically great.

By the way, I never was able to receive the 56.1 RF 41 before.


----------



## 257roberts




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *klandry7* /forum/post/17388854
> 
> 
> The Silver Sensor doesn't pick up VHF. Your FOX, WALA, is on VHF channel 9. You need an antenna with rabbit ears for VHF like this one.
> http://www.crutchfield.com/p_209HDTV....html?tp=12610



Will the amplification or the TERK be too much since the towers are so close to me?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *257roberts* /forum/post/17391247
> 
> 
> Will the amplification or the TERK be too much since the towers are so close to me?



Yes.


Avoid amplifiers on indoors antennas. They usually cause more problems than they fix.


----------



## David-the-dtv-ma




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/17391861
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> Avoid amplifiers on indoors antennas. They usually cause more problems than they fix.



Doe any one know about using a 7mhz band width o scope to measure up to 47 mhz. If you could take an old analog tv & put a o scope on the out put of the IF where the video detector would be. You should be aboe to see the digital signal from the TV station. It would seem to me that you could also see the noise the amp has & any milti path distortion that caused ghost on analog tv. Would this be cheaper than using a spectrum analyzer. But we need something more than using the signal meter on the TV


----------



## armand1

A couple of years ago someone had posted a paper that compared the sensitivity of various antennas at different TV spectrum frequencies. It was colorful graph lines showing which antennas did well at certain frequencies.


Does anyone have the link?


It was a great resource for me when I was chosing an atenna and it worked great. Now that some of the stations changed their location in June I have to find a better antenna in the lower frequency range. I live in DC and could pick up all the DC and Baltimore stations before. Now I can't get some of the Baltimore channels and missed the Ravens game. Argggggh. I need to get Baltimore Channel 13 (WJZ) Any advice?

I ditched cable 3 years ago and haven't regreted it.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *armand1* /forum/post/17393507
> 
> 
> A couple of years ago someone had posted a paper that compared the sensitivity of various antennas at different TV spectrum frequencies. It was colorful graph lines showing which antennas did well at certain frequencies.
> 
> 
> Does anyone have the link?
> 
> 
> It was a great resource for me when I was chosing an atenna and it worked great. Now that some of the stations changed their location in June I have to find a better antenna in the lower frequency range. I live in DC and could pick up all the DC and Baltimore stations before. Now I can't get some of the Baltimore channels and missed the Ravens game. Argggggh. I need to get Baltimore Channel 13 (WJZ) Any advice?
> 
> I ditched cable 3 years ago and haven't regreted it.



Try www.hdtvprimer.com 


For DC & Baltimore, you'll need an antenna (or two) that covers channels 7-51.


Much depends on your location and the relative distances and directions to the towers.


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/17393654
> 
> 
> Try www.hdtvprimer.com



More specifically, go to this page for antenna comparisons: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## armand1

Thanks that's exactly what I was looking for


----------



## billcushman

kevm14

If you can borrow a Sony LCD TV, pull up the Signal Diagnostics screen and you can readout a wealth of useful data. The Virtual Channel, Physical Channel, RF Frequency, Modulation (8VSB), Status (locked or unlocked), Errors, Signal/Noise Ratio (dB), and IF Automatic Gain Control Percentage are all displayed. The best SNR usually tops out about 33dB, but 20dB or a little less should be adequate to get lock and 0 errors. With a strong signal the IF AGC will be 27 to 29 percent. With a weak signal it will usually be a little less than 50 percent.


Also included is a bar graph and signal quality number which is probably related to the inverse uncorrected bit error rate.


This data will help you really know something about your signal quality on all stations.


Bill Cushman

Life Member SMPTE

Contributing Editor Widescreen Review


----------



## kevm14

Oh man that sounds awesome. My TV is Sony but hopelessly analog. At least it does HD.


----------



## armand1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *billcushman* /forum/post/17394543
> 
> 
> kevm14
> 
> If you can borrow a Sony LCD TV, pull up the Signal Diagnostics screen and you can readout a wealth of useful data. The Virtual Channel, Physical Channel, RF Frequency, Modulation (8VSB), Status (locked or unlocked), Errors, Signal/Noise Ratio (dB), and IF Automatic Gain Control Percentage are all displayed. The best SNR usually tops out about 33dB, but 20dB or a little less should be adequate to get lock and 0 errors. With a strong signal the IF AGC will be 27 to 29 percent. With a weak signal it will usually be a little less than 50 percent.
> 
> 
> Also included is a bar graph and signal quality number which is probably related to the inverse uncorrected bit error rate.
> 
> 
> This data will help you really know something about your signal quality on all stations.
> 
> 
> Bill Cushman
> 
> Life Member SMPTE
> 
> Contributing Editor Widescreen Review



Thanks Bill,

that's a very good idea. Come to think of it my Toshiba REGZA also has a signal diagnostic screen with all the items you mentioned, buried in the submenus somewhere. Which I never use and forgot about. I'll try that.

Thanks,

Armand


----------



## finlay648

Another option if you have a HDHomeRun network tuner is to use the Silicondust config program to read the signal strength, signal qualtiy and symbol quality. Can be accessed using a WiFi connection via your network.


----------



## spokybob




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/17391861
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> Avoid amplifiers on indoors antennas. They usually cause more problems than they fix.



My CM7777 made a big difference on my YouTube on the *wrong* side of the house.


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *finlay648* /forum/post/17394671
> 
> 
> Can be accessed using a WiFi connection via your network.



This comes in very handy when pointing an antenna on the roof. All you need to have is your laptop.


----------



## holl_ands

I try not to "ass-u-me" anything....

I wouldn't rule out A-D changing the Balun Box design, perhaps to improve Hi-VHF.....


----------



## kevm14

The thing is I already have a laptop and a USB tuner. But I guess Media Center doesn't give advanced info. Or maybe it does in some hidden menu. There is a feature that brings up an info screen if you press 4-1-1-more info...


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> My CM7777 made a big difference on my YouTube on the wrong side of the house.



Yeah, but the CM7777 is a quality low noise preamp, completely unlike the high noise junk amps found in typical indoor amplified antennas.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *spokybob* /forum/post/17394711
> 
> 
> My CM7777 made a big difference on my YouTube on the *wrong* side of the house.



The only potential for improvements lies in either overcoming cable loss (most indoor cables are very short) or by essentially "substituting" the PA's NF for the tuner's NF.


If the PA's NF is several dB lower than the NF of the tuner, then that's your potential improvement.


Since most indoor amplified antennas have cheap, crappy, and noisy amps, they generally cause more harm than they help.


You have a 7777 which, while not the greatest PA, is a very decent one and is far better than most of the junk ones built into consumer antennas.


The greatest problem is overload... cheap amps don't have much dynamic range and are the first to distort.



Edit: ....I type too much and toooooo sloooowww,,,


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17395100
> 
> 
> The thing is I already have a laptop and a USB tuner.



Yeah but it's nice not to have to change your setup, disconnect antennas, run cable, etc. The network tuner lets you see the setup in the same state it is being watched in. Probably not worth the cost for this feature however, if you have something that works.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17395100
> 
> 
> But I guess Media Center doesn't give advanced info. Or maybe it does in some hidden menu. There is a feature that brings up an info screen if you press 4-1-1-more info...



I found MCE bars to be very difficult to determine useful signal levels and quality. Once I started using the hdhomerun with signal strength and SNR, it helped immensely in determining what factors were working and not. Basically I had better resolution and a distinction between strength and SNR. This was helpful in dealing with a multipath problem that didn't really show up in the MCE levels. I guess the USB tuner doesn't have any diagnostic software?


----------



## kevm14

That is what I need to check. Maybe there is generic software that will do this.


Mast question: I decided the easiest thing is to buy another 5 foot section of mast like this and stack it on my existing section. What do I use to clamp it together? One of these ? Or should I try finding a car exhaust style clamp that is 1.25"? Or a band clamp at the seam?


----------



## holl_ands

WatchHDTV (FREE) has SNR display for supported cards/sticks, although it may not

be "calibrated" for all. (On my HVR-950 the bar is useful, but good SNR is 50,000+):
http://watchhdtv.net/program.aspx 


You might find a separate SNR display application on manu. website (e.g. Hauppage).


TSReader Lite (FREE) displays SNR for supported cards/sticks...AND will display

Bit Error Rate statistics even when there is insufficient SNR for a video display:
http://www.tsreader.com/tsreader/index.html 

See bottom Left after "Signal Locked": http://www.tsreader.com/tsreader/tsr_wusa.jpg 

Skip down to "Terrestrial (ATSC)" section for list of supported hardware:
http://www.tsreader.com/tsreader/hardware.html 

VLC is the video viewer application that works with TSReader (but freebies have limitations):
http://www.videolan.org/vlc/ 

Even if you don't use myHTPC (has it been OBE???), fol. setup info is useful:
http://www.tsreader.com/tsreader/myHTPC-TSReader.html 


Or use a CECB that has been cross-calibrated against a professional Signal Level Meter:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=9117


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> What do I use to clamp it together? One of these? Or should I try finding a car exhaust style clamp that is 1.25"? Or a band clamp at the seam?



The easiest is to put a couple of sheet metal screws in it to prevent turning.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17396707
> 
> 
> The easiest is to put a couple of sheet metal screws in it to prevent turning.



Sheet metal screws??? Better be heavy duty....or they'll sheer off....


Given the torque and vibration these joints are subject to, I would use a clamp

and DRILL a hole big enough to slide a #10 stainless steel screw through + double nut.


My father-in-law used a pipe wrench to "tune" his free standing antenna direction

until he fabricated an alternative "arm" and attachment point near the ground.

No more excursions in the dark to "tune" the antenna.....


CM-9017 is for 1-1/2-in mast:
http://www.summitsource.com/channel-...17-p-9101.html 

whereas CM-3082 is for 1-1/4-in mast:
http://www.summitsource.com/channel-...82-p-8201.html 


Or use a muffler clamp....whatever gets the job done....as long as they aren't

dissimilar metals (to prevent galvanic corrosion problems).


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> sheet metal screws??? Better be heavy duty....or they'll sheer off....



#10 or #12's were what I was thinking, but yeah a bolt and nut thru the tubing would be better. I would be afraid to use a clamp on it because it may distort the tube, making it hard to take apart later. (like trying to get an old muffler off but with no surface to bang on, heh)


----------



## kevm14

Perhaps a screw or two with a nut on the other end, opposed at 90°, could completely take the place of any clamping...the ends are designed to slide together so it shouldn't be too loose. Now for the fun of drilling while up on the roof. I don't see how that could possibly go wrong


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17394603
> 
> 
> Oh man that sounds awesome. My TV is Sony but hopelessly analog. At least it does HD.



That's not possible. HD is digital. If your TV is analog, you are NOT watching HD.


You may be watching programming from an HD source, but you are not getting HD quality. You have to have a digital TV to watch HD.


Larry

SF


----------



## kevm14

Um, sorry to break this to you but component video carries 1080i and it looks great. That is an analog interface. In fact, component technically supports 1080p but for some reason no actual devices seem to support it.


What, did you think HD was new for 2005? It was around for 7+ years by that point. My TV is from 2001 and is 1080i. CRT. It has no digital tuner. My HTPC does all the work for me and spits out a very nice picture at 1080i via component.


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17401205
> 
> 
> Um, sorry to break this to you but component video carries 1080i and it looks great. That is an analog interface. In fact, component technically supports 1080p but for some reason no actual devices seem to support it.
> 
> 
> What, did you think HD was new for 2005? It was around for 7+ years by that point. My TV is from 2001 and is 1080i. CRT. It has no digital tuner. My HTPC does all the work for me and spits out a very nice picture at 1080i via component.



I had a 32 inch HD CRT from about the same time. I agree, awesome picture quality but unfortunately no tuner and a 4:3 aspect ratio. Hated to see it go but I don't miss moving that thing. Just out of curiosity how are you feeding the OTA signal to the television? A converter box?


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17401205
> 
> 
> My HTPC does all the work for me and spits out a very nice picture at 1080i via component.



Sorry, just reread your post. Nevermind.


----------



## kevm14

Yeah, it's a Windows 7 HTPC. 2 tuner OTA DVR, Hulu, netflix, etc, etc. Built it a week or two ago.


Here is my setup: http://kevinallenmoore.com/photo/v/kmoore/HTPC/


----------



## dbreton

I am looking into buying an antenna and am in need of some help determining the best antenna for my location.



My location is tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3db67147e4947f4c 





These are the channels that I would like to receive:

ABC

NBC

CBS

FOX


I made an antenna similar to this uhfhdtvantenna.blogspot.com ,but I am only receiving a few channels(specifically 9).


Any feedback would be appreciated.


Thanks


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dbreton* /forum/post/17412186
> 
> 
> I am looking into buying an antenna and am in need of some help determining the best antenna for my location.
> 
> 
> 
> My location is tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3db67147e4947f4c
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are the channels that I would like to receive:
> 
> ABC
> 
> NBC
> 
> CBS
> 
> FOX
> 
> 
> I made an antenna similar to this uhfhdtvantenna.blogspot.com ,but I am only receiving a few channels(specifically 9).
> 
> 
> Any feedback would be appreciated.
> 
> 
> Thanks



A CM 4228HD pointed to your stations 42 miles away should get those and your channel 9 only 10 miles away in a different direction.


Mine is pointed to my stations 60 miles away in the east and I get the stations 25 miles north too, including a channel 9.

http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master...pr_product_top


----------



## holl_ands

But you'll need to be OUTDOORS....and will probably not get FOX if in the attic.


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *klandry7* /forum/post/17412999
> 
> 
> A CM 4228HD pointed to your stations 42 miles away should get those and your channel 9 only 10 miles away in a different direction.
> 
> 
> Mine is pointed to my stations 60 miles away in the east and I get the stations 25 miles north too, including a channel 9.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master...pr_product_top



They might need to be careful with multipath if they rely on the backside of the 4228HD for channel 9 at 10.5 miles. I have a similar situation except reversed. One station was at 50 miles and the rest at 15. I pointed the 4228 at the station 50 miles away. While I received the closer stations at acceptable levels, they had too many dropouts to be acceptable in my opinion. Your extra distance from the stations on the backside may make a difference, then again maybe its my location. I'm sure others here probably know if this could happen.


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hayj* /forum/post/17413470
> 
> 
> They might need to be careful with multipath if they rely on the backside of the 4228HD for channel 9 at 10.5 miles. I have a similar situation except reversed. One station was at 50 miles and the rest at 15. I pointed the 4228 at the station 50 miles away. While I received the closer stations at acceptable levels, they had too many dropouts to be acceptable in my opinion. Your extra distance from the stations on the backside may make a difference, then again maybe its my location. I'm sure others here probably know if this could happen.



A lot depends on the quality of the tuner in handing multipath. My setup works with a 2006 Samsung TV and 2007 Hitachi TV. My 2005 Sony DVR catches the VHF stations I'm not pointing at, but not the UHF stations.


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *klandry7* /forum/post/17413757
> 
> 
> A lot depends on the quality of the tuner in handing multipath. My setup works with a 2006 Samsung TV and 2007 Hitachi TV. My 2005 Sony DVR catches the VHF stations I'm not pointing at, but not the UHF stations.



Good point. I have only really tested this on my hdhomerun tuner.


----------



## systems2000

While working on constructing a single channel yagi yesterday, I tried using QIC tubing for the folded di-pole. I found that trying to get a 1.5" inside radius didn't work very well.


I began thinking that maybe I could hammer the QIC flat and use that as the folded di-pole material (it comes out to 10mm wide by 1mm thick). Does anyone have any input into if it makes any difference to use 10AWG, QIC, or flatten QIC (my CM3020 uses flat aluminum)?


----------



## Don F.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don F.* /forum/post/17336374
> 
> 
> guess I will get a combiner, straighten a coat hanger and go for it... I would think it would not be too difficult to get them, as they are only 4 miles away with a full 15 watts.
> 
> I had a pretty good signal on the 4228 until Wed and they completely went away.... I'm thinking they must be having transmitter problems.



My problem, discussed here about two weeks ago, was a loose lug screw at the local ch 8 transmitter. Georgia pbs sent me an email today saying that when they went digital they installed a new ac power panel, and one of the main lug screws was not tight or stripped during the install. This causing intermittent power to the transmitter, thus the in & out signal. In fact they were off the air for better than a week, I don't think they knew it, as my little town is in the sticks, and there is no remote monitor at their site. I'm guessing the problem was found last Thrusday has the signal has been good since then.


So the old 4228 is working just fine now...


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/17424392
> 
> 
> While working on constructing a single channel yagi yesterday, I tried using QIC tubing for the folded di-pole. I found that trying to get a 1.5" inside radius didn't work very well.
> 
> 
> I began thinking that maybe I could hammer the QIC flat and use that as the folded di-pole material (it comes out to 10mm wide by 1mm thick). Does anyone have any input into if it makes any difference to use 10AWG, QIC, or flatten QIC (my CM3020 uses flat aluminum)?



I doubt that flat tubing would matter much.


I don't know anything about GIC tubing, but I've heard about putting dry sand in tubing before bending it around a mandrel. The sand is supposed to prevent crushing and kinks.


What channel are you trying to receive?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Does anyone have any input into if it makes any difference to use 10AWG, QIC, or flatten QIC (my CM3020 uses flat aluminum)?



For folded dipoles and loops, thicker stuff gives a bit wider bandwidth and better SWR in general.

Besides the sand trick, you could also try plumbing tube benders or heating the bend area with a torch before bending. Or a combination of all.


----------



## kevm14

Up to 31 channels as the leaves fall. I might top 35 if Boston's ION starts coming in. Still haven't received my 5 foot mast section...


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17424942
> 
> 
> What channel are you trying to receive?



I'm building three yagis (8 directors/60° corner reflector) for WTAJ (RF32), WLYH (RF23), & WPMT (RF47). I'm also building a "Circular" with reflector (13" seperation) for W08EE-D (WNPB - RF8) and WWPX (RF12).


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17425135
> 
> 
> For folded dipoles and loops, thicker stuff gives a bit wider bandwidth and better SWR in general.



I'm not looking for a very large bandwidth (ie. WTAJ RF32 - WLYH RF23 (maybe W38AN RF33, when it comes on-line) - WPMT RF47 (maybe WGCB RF30 and WGAL RF31 (if it gets approved and built))).



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17425135
> 
> 
> Besides the sand trick, you could also try plumbing tube benders or heating the bend area with a torch before bending. Or a combination of all.



I was trying to use the benders that came with Tube Flaring Kit, but the bend radius is too tight. I could try the sand, but it's a lot easier when the metal is flat.


----------



## systems2000

Attached is what I have to deal with.


The WLYH path is the presumed reason for receiving the signal from almost directly North.


V3 is a corrected topo. I checked the FCC database to get a more accurate idea of directions. I noticed that the direction for WPMT & WGCB could also be reflections off the peaks of the US30 pass. The RED paths are not active yet.


----------



## David-the-dtv-ma




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/17427634
> 
> 
> I'm building three yagis (8 directors/60° corner reflector) for WTAJ (RF32), WLYH (RF23), & WPMT (RF47). I'm also building a "Circular" with reflector (13" seperation) for W08EE-D (WNPB - RF8) and WWPX (RF12).



Are all the channels in the same general direction?


If so I would just use #10 or #8 copper like the bare graound wire you can buy off the spool at Lowes. Since it is soft it is easy to bend. I would make a folded dipole at the 1/2 wave with that wire for each channel you want to receive. Arange on a boom the same way a vhf low band yagi antenna for a deep fringe is built. that would be the longest on the back & the shortest on the front. You would space the dipoles like they are on the 4 bay bow tie , except the boom is horizontal & not vertical like the bow tie is. This would max the signal on the wanted channels. The point is why have band on an antenna for channels you are not needed & when you are wanted just a few channels.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/17424392
> 
> 
> While working on constructing a single channel yagi yesterday, I tried using QIC tubing for the folded di-pole. I found that trying to get a 1.5" inside radius didn't work very well.
> 
> 
> I began thinking that maybe I could hammer the QIC flat and use that as the folded di-pole material (it comes out to 10mm wide by 1mm thick). Does anyone have any input into if it makes any difference to use 10AWG, QIC, or flatten QIC (my CM3020 uses flat aluminum)?



Yes, you can simply hammer flat the section you intend to bend. Since TV

channels are 6 MHz wide, ultra-precision isn't as important as in Ham Bands....


A formula for determining equivalence between a rectangular section element and

a round section element is found in the description for VK5DJ's Yagi Calculator:
http://vk5dj.mountgambier.org/Yagi/Yagi.html 


Here's more:
http://fermi.la.asu.edu/w9cf/article...orm/index.html 
http://vk5dj.mountgambier.org/Yagi/Yagi.html 


===================================

I compared performance of QICT to AWG12 in a UHF Circular Loop....Folded Dipole would be similar:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops 

QICT provides much better SWR across the band....

3/8-in Aluminum tubing provides improved SWR....

And HICT (half-inch) would be even better....


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *David-the-dtv-ma* /forum/post/17433787
> 
> 
> Are all the channels in the same general direction?



Take a look at the V3 Topo file I posted above.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/17433790
> 
> 
> Yes, you can simply hammer flat the section you intend to bend.



Good idea!







I hadn't thought to do that, but I can see the benefit of having a QICT with flat bends.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/17433790
> 
> 
> I compared performance of QICT to AWG12 in a UHF Circular Loop....Folded Dipole would be similar:
> http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops
> 
> QICT provides much better SWR across the band....
> 
> 3/8-in Aluminum tubing provides improved SWR....
> 
> And HICT (half-inch) would be even better....



This is the loop antenna I'm building for WWPX and W08EE-D. How did you go about producing the 13" spacing?


I was thinking about using grey PVC to make a inverse table with the grid strapped to the top square and the circle attached to stand-offs (legs).


----------



## holl_ands

Although I built Folded Dipole, Loop & Zig-Zags for Hi-VHF, I have not (yet) built & tested

Reflectorized versions. I also have not built any for UHF Band (CM-4228 works, so no need).


Still recovering from a rib injury....but if I build anything it's probably going to be Hi-VHF and

preferably Circular Polarized.....like a Helix.....


"Table" idea sounds good, but "legs" would need cross-bracing (like a real table)

to prevent collapse....which could be some PVC 3x90-deg connectors.....or a

set of "tees" for the legs plus right-angles for the four straight PVC pieces forming

the "table" (to which the reflector screen is attached). [Do you need a picture???]


Here are some construction ideas that might help:
http://home.comcast.net/~ross_anderson/quadix.htm 
http://www.af9y.com/helix.htm


----------



## blackngold75

Thanks for everyone's help, responding to my post a couple of weeks ago. I decided on a Winegard HD7082P to pull in the Philly channels. Unfortunately, my side yard is sort of a swampy mess right now (not so good for supporting a 24-foot ladder







) and I was tired of waiting, so I quickly set up the antenna in the attic above my garage last night as a temporary thing because I wanted to try it out.


Observations: my attic is not a big as I thought!


Reception is pretty good - I am pulling in most of the Philly channels with signal strength of 3 out of 5 bars or better (Samsung DTB-H260F). No issues at all with WPVI (VHF 6) or WHYY (VHF 12). I am looking forward to getting my mounting/grounding hardware and putting this outside - when I scan for channels I can see the tuner pausing on a couple of stations but not locking them in, so I am hoping being outside with more elevation will get me there. So far, counting subchannels, I have 24 channels. Not too bad.


Thanks again.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> so I am hoping being outside with more elevation will get me there. So far, counting subchannels, I have 24 channels. Not too bad.



Youll probably get another dozen then.


----------



## jpasadena

*systems2000:*


> Quote:
> How did you go about producing the 13" spacing?



If you are asking about building a VHF-Hi loop with

reflector, this is working for me:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=112675


----------



## Satcom15

I'm curious and maybe this isn't the right place to ask since it may be TV brand dependent - If so please let me know.



There are still a few analog TV stations broadcasting out there according to a sweep I did with a spectrum analyzer a month or so ago (at least in Colorado Springs). These are low power translaters and community access it appears. My question: Can HDTVs (LCD, plasma, etc.) receive them on the same antenna port as digital reception? In other words if I connect an antenna to the TV, it will use the ATSC tuner for the digital channels. However if I manually tune to an analog channel, are the TV's smart enough to use an NTSC tuner and show the image? Just curious.


Thanks


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Satcom15* /forum/post/17451446
> 
> 
> My question: Can HDTVs (LCD, plasma, etc.) receive them on the same antenna port as digital reception?



Absolutely, the antenna does not care if signal is NTSC (analog), ATSC (digital) or FM radio for that matter.


TVs have separate NTSC and ATSC tuners. Ours (Sony) displays analog channels without the subcarrier indicator, so Channel 2 is analog and Channel 2.1 is digital. It can be somewhat confusing because Digital channels are virtual, the actual RF channel may be different.


If you have to enter local low power channels manually my guess is that they are too weak to display properly. We have a couple nearby and have never been able to receive them. Try plugging you address into the TVfool site to get an idea how strong the signals are in your area.
http://tvfool.com/ 


/tom


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Satcom15* /forum/post/17451446
> 
> 
> I'm curious and maybe this isn't the right place to ask since it may be TV brand dependent - If so please let me know.
> 
> 
> 
> There are still a few analog TV stations broadcasting out there according to a sweep I did with a spectrum analyzer a month or so ago (at least in Colorado Springs). These are low power translaters and community access it appears. My question: Can HDTVs (LCD, plasma, etc.) receive them on the same antenna port as digital reception? In other words if I connect an antenna to the TV, it will use the ATSC tuner for the digital channels. However if I manually tune to an analog channel, are the TV's smart enough to use an NTSC tuner and show the image? Just curious.
> 
> 
> Thanks



All ATSC capable DTVs retain the ability to decode NTSC signals (which are still used on Cable).

CECB Coupon Converter Boxes and most OTA STBs are an exception...they only decode ATSC.

Those CECB's with "Analog Pass Thru" can bypass the internal ATSC tuner, passing the NTSC

signals to the attached Analog TV....which requires separate R/C for each type signal.


To tune to a digital channel, a user enters "12.3 or 12-3" whereas analog is just "10".


BTW: The terms "NTSC Tuner" and "ATSC Tuner" can be misleading.

For each Coax input, there is only one "Tuner", which filters, amplifies and

downmixes the RF signal....irrespective of what kind of signal it is.


It is followed by a DECODER CHIP, which is a digital signal processor that

selectively performs NTSC, ATSC or (optional) QAM demodulation.

In many of the new DTVs, the decoder functions have been embedded

into the big TV System-On-A-Chip....plus some external memory chips.


If a DTV has TWO Coax inputs, then it has TWO "Tuners". Sometimes

one of these tuners is incapable of performing the ATSC decode job.


----------



## Satcom15

holls_and & Tshcmidt - Thanks for the information. I kind of thought that's the way things were, but wanted to confirm. I have a 13 in analog TV and extended basic cable. Time to upgrade to get the full advantage of HDTV I suppose. Also, analog bandwidth recovery (project Cavalry) and DTA boxes from Comcast (my local provider) are probably on the horizon. Regrettably, given all the shennanigans Comcast does with HD compression I'm reluctant to go the digital cable route. If only we had FiOS ... *sigh*. Maybe just go OTA and BluRay







We'll see.

Cheers


----------



## Crimson Apostle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/16781506
> 
> 
> 2) Use heavy gauge antenna pole or galvanized pipe up to a maximum of 10'.



I am wondering how far, if any, I could go above this conventional advice in my situation. I already have my antenna up in one location, but it does not get quite all I hoped but its maybe 70' from some trees, and moving it back to my other chimney will not only make it higher, but about 30' farther away from the trees. (I'll spare the details of my setup --- heights of trees, angle to treetops from current location etc --- unless they become helpful.) Also, there is a deciduous tree about 10' in front of the current location but it would be an issue farther back (and off to the side some).


I have a 14' chimney I will move it to, and can bolt the entire 14' long with mounting brackets into the chimney (not the round-the chimney straps, unless they were somehow more solid which I doubt). Also, the galvanized pipe comes in 21' lengths, so I could have the top 21' of it in one solid piece.


I am going to try this week to get it up with just a 21' piece, but if that does not work I will go higher. Of course, 3' more gets me to the 10' above the mount that is the conventional limit. But could I go above that some safely given that its solid pipe bracketed for many feet into the chimney? If needed, would going 15' above the last mount be stupid?


(I don't want to hassle with guy wires, but if the max safe without them does not quite get what I need then I will; in my city I can go up to 35' high.)


Thanks in advance for any help here!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> If needed, would going 15' above the last mount be stupid?



What antenna and what size galvanized pipe ? Guy wires arent really that much hassle.


----------



## Colm

Guy every 10' above the last bracket is the rule of thumb. If you do something else you are playing engineer. If you go with something heavier than typical antenna mast, it might be safe. But like 300ohm said, guy wires aren't that big a hassle. And even if you could get by safely with that last 15', your antenna will be more stable properly guyed.


----------



## Crimson Apostle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17459510
> 
> 
> What antenna and what size galvanized pipe ? Guy wires arent really that much hassle.



Here is the antenna setup:
Winegard HD 8200U High Definition Platinum VHF/UHF/FM Antenna (HD8200U) 
Winegard AP 8275 Chromstar 2000 Series VHF/UHF Pre Amplifier (AP8275) 


For now I used 1" (1.25" OD) galvanized, but I could possibly use thicker... I am checking with the installer (a guy who works with me but very good). He said what size to get, and I have no idea how he attached it to the pipe (or how anyone does). He has a number of successful installs in the area, which is impressive given that we are about 65 miles from the stations.


----------



## kevm14

If I have about 70 feet of quad shield RG-6, what is the minimum bend radius below which I compromise the signal-carrying capability of the cable? I ask because last night I raised my antenna up another 5 feet. Fortunately I left enough slack inside the garage that I had no issues with length. When I left everything loose, and went inside to check the reception, I was mostly pleased. In fact, Boston ION 68.x went from a dead channel to marginal reception. And Boston CW 56.x seemed pretty good. The Boston ION 68 (RF-32) is kind of a heart breaker because RF-32 has about 1.5dB stronger gain on the 14-foot Winegard that I decided against. Maybe I could add a low noise but also low gain amp, so I don't ruin the majority of my channels which are strong.


However, after taping the cable to the mast and taping the small bundle remaining in the garage, it seemed like my signal took a dump. I untaped the bundle in the garage and that seemed to improve the signal. Tonight I am going to try to increase the bend radius where the cable exits the garage and goes up the mast. I took care not to make the bends ridiculous yet it seems a lot more sensitive than I thought....or it's something else and I am barking up the wrong tree.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17460297
> 
> 
> If I have about 70 feet of quad shield RG-6, what is the minimum bend radius below which I compromise the signal-carrying capability of the cable?



The minimum bend radius is not an absolute answer. RG-6 with solid copper center conductor is more flexible than RG-6 with copper clad steel center conductor. The insulation also varies in rigidity. For these reasons, I always use solid copper center conductor, even though it is more expensive and harder to find than copperweld.


Unfortunately, once the bend radius has been exceeded you may have to replace the cable to get back to the original specs. This is because the dielectric was deformed and the center conductor is no longer located in the center of the coax.


If the cable is after a preamp it's unlikely that a tight bend caused the loss of a station. The gain of the preamp should overcome any extra VSWR losses.


----------



## systems2000

 Crimson Apostle ,


I have a CM3020 (10+ years old) mounted on top of a 12' galv. pipe, which is part of a 55' AGL tower. The tower is bolted to the side of my single story house (at the roof peak) and is free standing to 47' (the pipe takes it to 55').


I live in the open and get 50+mph winds on a regular basis. With 8'+ of galv pipe sticking out of the top of the tower (supported by my rotor) and the CM3020 mounted to the very top, I don't get any problems.


Using galv pipe is a lot stronger than antenna pipe, but unless you are using larger diameter pipe, I would follow the 10' rule, but no more than 15'. It's your setup. If the pipe doesn't have a lot of play and you don't have a wind or ice problem, make a judgement call.


Just a note about joining pipes. Try to make sure you have at least one clamp (preferably two - more is always better) between the joint and the free standing section.


----------



## systems2000

I noticed something interesting over the weekend. It appears the VHF-Low side of my CM3020 is affecting the reception on my Quad (which is over 8' apart in height).


As I rotated my CM3020 to acquire WPMT and WMAR at the same time, my reception of WWPX went out. I stepped outside to take a look at the antenna orientations and saw the the back-side of the CM3020 was directly above the Pyramid.


Interesting piece of information, considering that just two nights prior, I was sitting in the hot tub looking at the CM3020 and thinking about removing the VHF-Low elements.


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17460570
> 
> 
> The minimum bend radius is not an absolute answer. RG-6 with solid copper center conductor is more flexible than RG-6 with copper clad steel center conductor. The insulation also varies in rigidity. For these reasons, I always use solid copper center conductor, even though it is more expensive and harder to find than copperweld.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, once the bend radius has been exceeded you may have to replace the cable to get back to the original specs. This is because the dielectric was deformed and the center conductor is no longer located in the center of the coax.
> 
> 
> If the cable is after a preamp it's unlikely that a tight bend caused the loss of a station. The gain of the preamp should overcome any extra VSWR losses.



I believe this is what I bought. Then I cut the ends off, ran it, and re-terminated with PPC EX6XL (or whatever they are) compression F connectors.


I definitely haven't bent it in a way that you could consider it to have gotten kinked. Let's say as little as a 2 or 3" bend radius. Is that a problem? I read that the center conductor does need to be centrally placed inside the dielectric. Speaking of which, does the signal actually propagate in RF through the cable, like between the center conductor and shield? Someone was telling me that it just conducts down the center conductor and there's not really a field involved - and the dieletric and shielding are JUST for shielding, not to help the signal propagation. I'm not sure that's true.


I have no preamp but I am wondering if I should add one to help my marginal channels, without hurting my strong ones (i.e. tuner overload). Maybe enough gain to overcome the signal loss from the cable length, plus a little extra for the weak stations. What are my options for the highest quality (low noise) but modest gain preamps? And how close to the antenna must I place it? How about just inside my garage, about 10-12 feet from the antenna? CPA-19? CM7777?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Here is the antenna setup:



Thats a big boy. I personally wouldnt feel safe with 15 ft unsupported with it with 1 1/4" OD galvanized water pipe.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Let's say as little as a 2 or 3" bend radius. Is that a problem?



Thats very tight. With quad shield, I would have a 2 or 2 1/2 ft minimum coiled diameter. But the very act of coiling turns the coax into a crude inductor. I would only use the amount of coax needed plus a few feet. A quality preamp on that length of run is definately a good idea.


----------



## Colm

General rule of thumb for coax bend radius is no less than 10 times the diameter of the cable. For a .25" diameter cable, that would come out to 2.5".


----------



## Crimson Apostle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/17461528
> 
> Crimson Apostle ,
> 
> 
> I have a CM3020 (10+ years old) mounted on top of a 12' galv. pipe, which is part of a 55' AGL tower. The tower is bolted to the side of my single story house (at the roof peak) and is free standing to 47' (the pipe takes it to 55').
> 
> 
> I live in the open and get 50+mph winds on a regular basis. With 8'+ of galv pipe sticking out of the top of the tower (supported by my rotor) and the CM3020 mounted to the very top, I don't get any problems.
> 
> 
> Using galv pipe is a lot stronger than antenna pipe, but unless you are using larger diameter pipe, I would follow the 10' rule, but no more than 15'. It's your setup. If the pipe doesn't have a lot of play and you don't have a wind or ice problem, make a judgement call.
> 
> 
> Just a note about joining pipes. Try to make sure you have at least one clamp (preferably two - more is always better) between the joint and the free standing section.



Thanks for the scoop!


My installer friend told me that galvanized pipe was going to be a pain to get an antenna mounted on, even only 7' above the chimney. And a really big pain if we had to make it go higher. So he strongly recommended that I buy a ChannelMaster 1630 30' telescoping mast . It is on order....


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17462141
> 
> 
> Someone was telling me that it just conducts down the center conductor and there's not really a field involved - and the dieletric and shielding are JUST for shielding, not to help the signal propagation. I'm not sure that's true.



You're right, it's not true.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17462141
> 
> 
> I have no preamp but I am wondering if I should add one to help my marginal channels, without hurting my strong ones (i.e. tuner overload).



That's the conundrum, how to get enough gain without overload.


In most cases the 7777 has too much gain and can overload. In most cases the HDP-269 has enough gain, and even it can overload in a strong signal environment.


The best way to select a preamp is to look closely at the TVfool and FMfool reports, compare the difference between the strongest and weakest TV stations, determine if the angles between the stations can help reduce overload, analyze the antenna selection for it's ability to pick up FM, consider if the antenna is a singe antenna for VHF and UHF or two separate antennas, and make the preamp selection accordingly.


----------



## onezero

TG, are you a politician?


You don't answer anything with


> Quote:
> You're right, it's not true.



.


Which is false (not true) ?:


1. Cable dielectric and shielding is just for shielding


2. Cable dielectric and shielding is to help signal propagation


----------



## onezero




> Quote:
> General rule of thumb for coax bend radius is no less than 10 times the diameter of the cable. For a .25" diameter cable, that would come out to 2.5".



If that is true, I guess the last 15' of the 100' rolls of RG6U Quad Shield I picked up at Home Depot is bad, as they are coiled really tight. However, after using up 2 rolls they seem to be ok as far as I can tell.


oz


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *onezero* /forum/post/17467065
> 
> 
> TG, are you a politician?
> 
> 
> You don't answer anything with .
> 
> 
> Which is false (not true) ?:
> 
> 
> 1. Cable dielectric and shielding is just for shielding
> 
> 
> 2. Cable dielectric and shielding is to help signal propagation



It really doesn't matter. (Spoken like a true politician.)


----------



## onezero




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17468080
> 
> 
> It really doesn't matter. (Spoken like a true politician.)



I guess that's why you are a "Special" member as you don't really matter.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> If that is true, I guess the last 15' of the 100' rolls of RG6U Quad Shield I picked up at Home Depot is bad, as they are coiled really tight.



You have a point about that, some of the stuff at Lowes or Home Depot could be bad (bad meaning it still works, but the impedance is off) from the get go. The roll diameter used by the cable companies is much larger and doesnt get as tight at the end of their roll as the beginning of the roll at Lowes or Home Depot.


----------



## onezero




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17469643
> 
> 
> You have a point about that, some of the stuff at Lowes or Home Depot could be bad (bad meaning it still works, but the impedance is off) from the get go. The roll diameter used by the cable companies is much larger and doesnt get as tight at the end of their roll as the beginning of the roll at Lowes or Home Depot.



So how can you determine if it's impedance is off? And if it is off, what kind of a performance hit would it cause? I really don't want to re-do all my cabling as I just replaced all my 20+ year old rg6 with the Home Depot stuff. It was a great improvement BTW.


oz


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17462688
> 
> 
> Thats very tight. With quad shield, I would have a 2 or 2 1/2 ft minimum coiled diameter. But the very act of coiling turns the coax into a crude inductor. I would only use the amount of coax needed plus a few feet. A quality preamp on that length of run is definately a good idea.



Can anyone help me pick a quality preamp that is A) the lowest noise possible and B) not ridiculous on the gain such that it blows out my strong channels? Price wise, anything under $250 I'd probably consider.


Also, would running the coax down 7 feet of mast be a problem? I assumed not since it is quad shield...but I could have sworn my reception was better when everything was hanging out, un-taped.


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/17462869
> 
> 
> General rule of thumb for coax bend radius is no less than 10 times the diameter of the cable. For a .25" diameter cable, that would come out to 2.5".



Not sure on the diameter but it sounds like I was at the minimum. I've since tried to straighten out the bends...


Also, someone was discussing the two different kinds of center conductor. Monoprice says mine is "18AWG Solid .040ˇ± Bare Copper-Clad Steel Conductor." I can't remember if that is the desired one or not, though.


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17464270
> 
> 
> That's the conundrum, how to get enough gain without overload.
> 
> 
> In most cases the 7777 has too much gain and can overload. In most cases the HDP-269 has enough gain, and even it can overload in a strong signal environment.
> 
> 
> The best way to select a preamp is to look closely at the TVfool and FMfool reports, compare the difference between the strongest and weakest TV stations, determine if the angles between the stations can help reduce overload, analyze the antenna selection for it's ability to pick up FM, consider if the antenna is a singe antenna for VHF and UHF or two separate antennas, and make the preamp selection accordingly.



One of the preamps I looked at had a built-in FM trap. I assume that would at least solve the FM problem. My antenna is a Winegard 7697 which I think is a 7-69 unit. I guess FM shouldn't be much of a concern for me.


Is the Antennas Direct CPA-19 any good?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> So how can you determine if it's impedance is off?



With pricey equipment. But the antenna/balun and TV input impedance may not be perfect either and impedance varies with frequency, so in many cases it could work in your favor if the coax impedance is off.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Monoprice says mine is "18AWG Solid .040ˇ± Bare Copper-Clad Steel Conductor." I can't remember if that is the desired one or not, though.



The most desirable one is the solid copper conductor. But I wouldnt worry about it. You may want to replace it in 5 - 10 years anyway.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17464270
> 
> 
> That's the conundrum, how to get enough gain without overload.
> 
> 
> In most cases the 7777 has too much gain and can overload. In most cases the HDP-269 has enough gain, and even it can overload in a strong signal environment.



Living just 3/4 of a mile from Sutro Tower which has one VHF and 10 UHF transmitters, I haven't found any preamp that will work. Even the HDP-269 is overloaded.


What I need is about four or five dB of gain. Several of the Sacramento-Stockton stations are received at the 13 to 14 dB SNR level much of the time, so if I could add just four or five dB it would solve my problems with them. I haven't found a preamp that will turn down to that low of a level.


If anyone finds a preamp that will work in a high RF environment, please let us know!


Larry

SF


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I haven't found a preamp that will turn down to that low of a level.



Have you tried the Kitz Tech one ? It has a gain adjustment on it and is low noise.


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17474946
> 
> 
> Can anyone help me pick a quality preamp that is A) the lowest noise possible and B) not ridiculous on the gain such that it blows out my strong channels? Price wise, anything under $250 I'd probably consider.
> 
> 
> Also, would running the coax down 7 feet of mast be a problem? I assumed not since it is quad shield...but I could have sworn my reception was better when everything was hanging out, un-taped.



I'm using the HDP-269 on a 91XG pointed at 169 degrees at a station 50 miles away. However, I'm 15 miles from all the majors station at 308 degrees. I have no problems with overload from the backside. I know the signal is significantly less on the back, but I'm sure there's still plenty there. Here's my tvfool if it helps:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8adf5abaf21f2a 


I've considered hooking the preamp to my 4228 pointed directly at the closer stations just to see if it overloads.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/17482665
> 
> 
> Living just 3/4 of a mile from Sutro Tower which has one VHF and 10 UHF transmitters, I haven't found any preamp that will work. Even the HDP-269 is overloaded.
> 
> 
> What I need is about four or five dB of gain. Several of the Sacramento-Stockton stations are received at the 13 to 14 dB SNR level much of the time, so if I could add just four or five dB it would solve my problems with them. I haven't found a preamp that will turn down to that low of a level.
> 
> 
> If anyone finds a preamp that will work in a high RF environment, please let us know!
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF



This is the tvfool report that I came up with for your location:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8adff1ff2d5b01 


Which Sacramento-Stockton stations do you need?:


KCRA NBC 3.1 virtual on real RF CH 35

KVIE PBS 6.1 on 9

KXTV ABC on 10

KOVR CBS 13.1 on 25

KTFK 64.1 on 26

KMMW 47.1 on 28

KSPX 29.1 on 48

KMAX CW 31.1 on 21

KTXL FOX 40.1 on 40

KQCA 58.1 on 46


The NTIA spec for CECB tuner overload is -5.0 dBm, and that's for just one signal and doesn't even consider the gain added by your antenna. So, it looks like you are already at the overload point. I think it's going to be more involved than just finding the right preamp. What will help you is that your strongest local stations and the Sacramento-Stockton stations are in opposite directions so that good F to B ratio antennas will make it possible.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/17482665
> 
> 
> Living just 3/4 of a mile from Sutro Tower which has one VHF and 10 UHF transmitters, I haven't found any preamp that will work. Even the HDP-269 is overloaded.
> 
> 
> What I need is about four or five dB of gain. Several of the Sacramento-Stockton stations are received at the 13 to 14 dB SNR level much of the time, so if I could add just four or five dB it would solve my problems with them. I haven't found a preamp that will turn down to that low of a level.
> 
> 
> If anyone finds a preamp that will work in a high RF environment, please let us know!
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF



Larry, have you tried an attenuator in FRONT of the pre-amp?


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/17482665
> 
> 
> If anyone finds a preamp that will work in a high RF environment, please let us know.



IMO, there is no amp that would be useful with so much strong RF present. I would imagine at your distance, you have some readings pretty close to 0 dbm already. (OUCH!!) The very forgiving HDP-269 does in fact overload at my location 4 miles outside DC, but is a stellar performer once you get about 10 miles out.


I would concentrate on attenuating as much out of band (especially FM) signals being picked up incidently by the antenna. By giving the tuner some additional breathing room you will have a better chance of improving the reliabilty of the weaker, more distant stations you desire.


----------



## kevm14

The closest stations I actually point at are 19 miles away, and there are trees, so maybe I will be ok with one of the common low noise preamps.


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hayj* /forum/post/17483121
> 
> 
> I'm using the HDP-269 on a 91XG pointed at 169 degrees at a station 50 miles away. However, I'm 15 miles from all the majors station at 308 degrees. I have no problems with overload from the backside. I know the signal is significantly less on the back, but I'm sure there's still plenty there. Here's my tvfool if it helps:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8adf5abaf21f2a
> 
> 
> I've considered hooking the preamp to my 4228 pointed directly at the closer stations just to see if it overloads.



My antenna has a front to back ratio of 11 to 20dB depending on the frequency. That is a HUGE amount of gain loss.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17484757
> 
> 
> The closest stations I actually point at are 19 miles away, and there are trees, so maybe I will be ok with one of the common low noise preamps.



The HDP-269 would work fine for your situation. If you find it works well on 1 set, but you need more gain for additional splits, you can add a CM distribution amp without risk of overload. I have used this combination just 9 miles outside DC with a 91-XG, and all 4 tuners get reliable reception of all the Baltimore/Washington UHF stations. There is even a 160kw UHF station only 2 miles away(off-axis) that doesn't overload the system.


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17484765
> 
> 
> My antenna has a front to back ratio of 11 to 20dB depending on the frequency. That is a HUGE amount of gain loss.



The 91XG has a quoted front to back ratio of 28 dBi so its huge too but I'm fairly certain I still see signals creeping in from various directions. My guess would be that the quoted values are far from what is realized in real situations. Others here probably would know more than me though. I do know that I was still urged to get the HDP-269 instead of a higher gain preamp by quite a few here even with this antenna. Still, being 19 miles away, my guess is it will work but again, others here have more experience. I saw a drop in my noise levels as well with the HDP-269 once my tuner's amp was mostly out of the picture.


I have one station that comes in marginally due to it's angle. If the 269 doesn't saturate on my 4228 I may pick up a second one. I think if I just reduce the noise from the 4228 feed, that alone will be enough to get it in all the time. If I check this out anytime soon I'll post back the results.


----------



## David-the-dtv-ma




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/17482665
> 
> 
> Living just 3/4 of a mile from Sutro Tower which has one VHF and 10 UHF transmitters, I haven't found any preamp that will work. Even the HDP-269 is overloaded.
> 
> 
> What I need is about four or five dB of gain. Several of the Sacramento-Stockton stations are received at the 13 to 14 dB SNR level much of the time, so if I could add just four or five dB it would solve my problems with them. I haven't found a preamp that will turn down to that low of a level.
> 
> 
> If anyone finds a preamp that will work in a high RF environment, please let us know!
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF



A distribution amp like motels use can hanlde high rf. they can handle 70 channels while each one of those channels is about +3 db. K mart has one. The only draw back is run on ac & the are not for out doors. You need to put it in the attic near the antenna & run the lead in as short as you can from the antenna to the amp.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Have you tried the Kitz Tech one ? It has a gain adjustment on it and is low noise.



Yes, I tried the Kitz Tech and as I DEcreased gain on it my weak signals got stronger, but I couldn't turn it down enough.







Signals were best without it. I returned it and got my money back.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Which Sacramento-Stockton stations do you need?:
> 
> 
> KCRA NBC 3.1 virtual on real RF CH 35
> 
> KVIE PBS 6.1 on 9
> 
> KXTV ABC on 10
> 
> KOVR CBS 13.1 on 25
> 
> KTFK 26.2 64.1 on 26
> 
> KMMW 47.1 on 28
> 
> KSPX 29.1 on 48
> 
> KMAX CW 31.1 on 21
> 
> KTXL FOX 40.1 on 40
> 
> KQCA 58.1 on 46



KCRA, KMAX and KQCA, which transmit from the same combined antenna, come in about 95-100% of the time, as does KXTV. KVIE and KOVR hang right at the cliff edge - sometimes viewable, sometimes not, and the rest are always below the cliff edge. It would be nice to get about 4 to 5 dB more gain, making the first four stations 100% reliable and bringing KVIE and KOVR above the cliff edge.


I have not tried putting an attenuator in front of the preamp, as suggested by ProjectSHO89. That's something to experiment with!


I do have something like a distribution amp, as suggested by David-the-dtv-man. It's the RCA DT140M Mini Drop Amplifier, and that keeps the four distributed signals at about the same level as connecting the antenna direct to each receiver. KMAX, for example, is 19 to 22 dB with the antenna connected direct to the TV. Connecting the distribution amp and then using one of the outputs gives me the same 19 to 22 dB. I don't gain anything, but I don't lose anything with it either, and I don't overload the receivers.


Is their a distribution amp that will work like the Mini Drop Amp but provide a little more gain of the original signal?


Digital Rules, yes, my strong signals are close to 0 DB. The ones from Sutro are between -3 and -9 dB, so I'm working with lots of signal in one direction and trying to get stations with -95 in the other direction.


I'm open to all ideas! Thanks to all for the suggestions so far.


Larry

SF


----------



## Larry Kenney

Added comment to Rabbit73... in case this helps any... looking at the TVFool list (and you do have the right location) I get all of the stations in the green and yellow areas, and many in the pink. Channels (RF) 36, 47, 23, 51 are always there and usually there's plenty of headroom above the 15 dB cliff edge. 49 and 50 are like 21, 35 and 46, 95 to 100% reliable.


Larry

SF


----------



## kevm14

Wow that HDP-269 seems pretty cool. Not as much gain as the big guns, but enough input headroom to avoid clipping originating from pre-amplification. I still worry about overloading the tuner itself but from reading here and a thread here I think I'll be ok.


Also, here is the spec sheet and installation instructions if anyone is interested. Very moderately priced, too.


One interesting note in the instructions: it wants you to place the power injector at the TV tuner, up to 150 feet from the preamp.


Specifically,



> Quote:
> To maximize the operating life of the amplifier, install the power injector close to the TV receiver (if only one will be used with the
> 
> antenna) or the first signal splitter. A maximum preamp-to-power injector length of 150 feet RG-6 or 150 feet RG-59 is acceptable.



Works for me as I have maybe 70 feet and placing it in my living room is more convenient than running some romex and putting an outlet in my garage.


Does anyone think there is a better unit than this for my needs? If not, I'll go for it.


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17490283
> 
> 
> I still worry about overloading the tuner itself



Not sure what tuner your using but if it's anything like the hdhomerun, you should be fine. My guess would be that the preamp saturates before the tuner. The hdhomerun has a fairly large dynamic range handling 40dB above 100% signal level.


----------



## kevm14

Using a PCIe Avermedia Duet dual tuner (internally). Good luck finding specs.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> One interesting note in the instructions: it wants you to place the power injector at the TV tuner, up to 150 feet from the preamp.



Not that interesting as most preamps hook up the same way, heh.


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17490968
> 
> 
> Using a PCIe Avermedia Duet dual tuner (internally). Good luck finding specs.



I know what you mean. I had to email Silicon Dust tech support to get a translation of percentages for signal quality. The values for signal strength were in their forum from another user asking for them. You might try emailing them if your really concerned.


----------



## hayj

Anyone know what the deal is with maximizing the life of the HDP-269 by installing the power injector close to the TV? Are they suggesting having a significant distance of coax in between the preamp and power supply? Mine is only a few feet away.


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17491025
> 
> 
> Not that interesting as most preamps hook up the same way, heh.



I looked at another preamp and they showed you hooking the power supply up within fairly close proximity of the preamp. And that's what I'd expect. Not sure why they'd rather you install the power injector inside your house, just to run the power all the way back up the cable. That seems less desirable for a number of reasons....but hey if it works, that's easier for me to install.


EDIT: Ordered it. I already raised the antenna the most I feel comfortable with. Whatever I get with this preamp is all I am going to get at this address, I think.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hayj* /forum/post/17491068
> 
> 
> Anyone know what the deal is with maximizing the life of the HDP-269 by installing the power injector close to the TV? Are they suggesting having a significant distance of coax in between the preamp and power supply? Mine is only a few feet away.



Possibly to avoid the extreme summertime heat in the attic????


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17491083
> 
> 
> I already raised the antenna the most I feel comfortable with.



Did raising the antenna help any? Remember, you need to find the wave peak along with the height.


With an outdoor antenna, you're going to want a coax ground block (connected to the house electrical ground) between the power inserter and the antenna.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/17490023
> 
> 
> Digital Rules, yes, my strong signals are close to 0 DB. The ones from Sutro are between -3 and -9 dB, so I'm working with lots of signal in one direction and trying to get stations with -95 in the other direction.



Wow, -95 in a metropolitan environment will be tough with a single antenna set-up. I just don't see amplification helping you other than distribution for multiple splits. The slightest bit of boost will most likely drown out any chance of getting those weaker stations. The antenna itself will need to do all the work.


The best I can do reliably is around -90 with a 91-XG. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8ecd2d529b2d8f The 91-XG nulls out the off axis signals well, except for the ones @ 180 degrees. It reliably picks up stations up to 30 miles from the back of the antenna.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/17491267
> 
> 
> Wow, -95 in a metropolitan environment will be tough with a single antenna set-up. I just don't see amplification helping you other than distribution for multiple splits. The slightest bit of boost will most likely drown out any chance of getting those weaker stations. The antenna itself will need to do all the work.



I guess I'm doing pretty good under the circumstances. The KMAX RF 21, KCRA RF 35, KQCA RF 46 tower is 65 miles away over a 1000' hill that's about 15 miles away, and using a CM4228 I'm getting signals in the 19 to 24 dB SNR range on my Sony receiver. TVFool shows KMAX at -90.2, KCRA at -94.0 and KQCA at -98.3 dBm.


I think my big benefit is the direction of the signals. The power from Sutro Tower is coming from 267 degrees, while the Sacramento stations are at 56 degrees.


Larry

SF


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Not sure why they'd rather you install the power injector inside your house, just to run the power all the way back up the cable. That seems less desirable for a number of reasons....but hey if it works, that's easier for me to install.



The main reason they do that is so they dont have to weatherproof the power supply and making for an easier and safer installation. The downside is a voltage drop on long runs.


Which preamp required a power outlet nearby ?


----------



## keeper

Does anyone know the capability of the XG91 at getting upper VHF. I am getting two channels out of Baltimore 11,13 at round 62% with a few dropouts. I wonder if I get a VHF antenna how much those signals will improve.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keeper* /forum/post/17493186
> 
> 
> Does anyone know the capability of the XG91 at getting upper VHF. I am getting two channels out of Baltimore 11,13 at round 62% with a few dropouts. I wonder if I get a VHF antenna how much those signals will improve.



Whatever VHF reception you are getting now is purely incidental, as the 91-XG is designed for UHF. Since it does pick those stations up fairly well, a small VHF-HI antenna should improve things quite a bit for you. (You may even get the powerhouse ABC affiliate out of DC depending on you location) I would recommend the inexpensive Antennacraft Y5-7-13 in your situation. http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...acraft+y5-7-13 . Keep the antennas at least 2.5 feet from each other if possible. Combine the 2 antennas with a UVSJ into a single downlead. http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...06US306&q=uvsj


----------



## keeper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/17493310
> 
> 
> Whatever VHF reception you are getting now is purely incidental, as the 91-XG is designed for UHF. Since it does pick those stations up fairly well, a small VHF-HI antenna should improve things quite a bit for you. (You may even get the powerhouse ABC affiliate out of DC depending on you location) I would recommend the inexpensive Antennacraft Y5-7-13 in your situation. http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...acraft+y5-7-13 . Keep the antennas at least 2.5 feet from each other if possible. Combine the 2 antennas with a UVSJ into a single downlead. http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...06US306&q=uvsj



Thanks a lot- that was what I was thinking.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Does anyone know the capability of the XG91 at getting upper VHF.



Channel 11, 4.45 dBi Raw Gain with a SWR of 158, so a massive negative Net Gain.

Channel 13, 5.1 dBi Raw Gain with a SWR of 159, so a massive negative Net Gain.


----------



## keeper




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17493775
> 
> 
> Channel 11, 4.45 dBi Raw Gain with a SWR of 158, so a massive negative Net Gain.
> 
> Channel 13, 5.1 dBi Raw Gain with a SWR of 159, so a massive negative Net Gain.



Thanks- so the XG91 is poor at receiving those channels?


----------



## ThoraX695

I'm not in as bad of a situation as Larry Kenney. However, I'm still 6.4 miles away from the closest transmission tower here in Cincinnati and my strongest station is -19.8 dBm. I'm at about 600 ft. and like to receive stations from Dayton, 40 miles north and right behind an 800 ft. hill. I can sporadically pick up WHIO, WPTD, and WDTN (down to a -10.1 noise margin) with my Clearstream C4 with no tropo and with most of the leaves off the trees. (My C4 seems to have eliminated a lot of multipath that's in my area as well. I'm very pleased with its performance during heavy rain and high winds dealing with my core stations.) I'm assuming that the only hope to improve potential reception to the Dayton stations is to upgrade my antenna to an XG91.


I'm not thinking about upgrading soon though. I have two high-VHF stations to deal with (although WCPO has petitioned to move to UHF). Plus, I'm hoping that AntennasDirect would release a newer version of the XG91 that's cut for UHF 14-51 instead of the current 14-69.


Here's my TV Fool plot . I'm open to suggestions!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Thanks- so the XG91 is poor at receiving those channels?



Well yeah, normally very poor. But as noted on the HDprimer site :


> Quote:
> Explanation (non-essential reading)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why show raw gain when net gain is what is important?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. If atmospheric noise exceeds receiver noise then the raw gain is what counts. (This is rare for VHF or UHF but does occur in some neighborhoods.)
> 
> 
> 2. To determine which of two antennas has a narrower beam on a given channel, just compare their gains at that channel. But in this case you use the raw gain, not the net gain. Raw gain is also called directivity.
> 
> 
> 3. There are cable-matching methods that make the net gain as good as the raw gain for any channel. But while these methods make some channels better, they make other channels worse, and there is seldom an overall improvement. There is presently no hardware available that lets consumers improve the match, except for some indoor antennas.
> 
> 
> 4. The program that predicts net gain is not very accurate. Net gain is affected by minor details in the way the cable attaches to the antenna. The raw gains are very accurate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note that this website is probably alone in using the term raw gain. Other references simply call it the gain.


 http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/17491234
> 
> 
> Did raising the antenna help any? Remember, you need to find the wave peak along with the height.
> 
> 
> With an outdoor antenna, you're going to want a coax ground block (connected to the house electrical ground) between the power inserter and the antenna.



I think it helped but I don't know if I have the patience to try other heights, on top of angles. I was hoping that higher would be better, but with trees that might not necessarily be true I guess.


I should probably add a ground block, though I don't have one at the moment. Do they all pass DC?


Also with the preamp, tell me if my math is correct. 12dB signal gain out of the HDP-269. Let's say 3dB of it is noise (probably somewhat less than that, in reality). That's 9dB net SNR gain when taking into account the noise floor. Subtract another 3dB for cable attenuation (70 feet of RG-6) and that's 6dB net SNR gain to the tuner. Hopefully 6dB (4x) is enough to tune in and stabilize even my 50 mile fringe Boston stations, as well as not over power the tuner on my 19 mile stations. I guess it all depends on what kind of SNR the antenna itself is seeing. If it's marginal then obviously no amount of amplification will help. I remain somewhat optimistic at this point.


----------



## hayj

I think you'll also see an increase in SNR in the end signal since the tuner will be amplifying less. If your intersted, holl_ands posted this link awhile ago:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=879273 


On it there's a very useful post that contains a cascaded noise figure calculation spreadsheet. Very helpful to see how various components effect the bottom line.

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...&postcount=605


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17497509
> 
> 
> I should probably add a ground block, though I don't have one at the moment. Do they all pass DC?



Yes, you shouldn't really notice much attentuation either.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17497509
> 
> 
> Hopefully 6dB (4x) is enough to tune in and stabilize even my 50 mile fringe Boston stations, as well as not over power the tuner on my 19 mile stations.



I seriously doubt you will see any overload. You can also add a CM distribution amp if you have a few splits in order to maintain adequate gain to each outlet.


I've used this combiantion with an off axis UHF station & 2 FM stations less than 2 miles away. Even the weakest stations 45 miles out are preserved at all 4 outlets.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...bc27954ffd5063


----------



## ctdish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17497509
> 
> 
> Also with the preamp, tell me if my math is correct. 12dB signal gain out of the HDP-269. Let's say 3dB of it is noise (probably somewhat less than that, in reality). That's 9dB net SNR gain when taking into account the noise floor. Subtract another 3dB for cable attenuation (70 feet of RG-6) and that's 6dB net SNR gain to the tuner. Hopefully 6dB (4x) is enough to tune in and stabilize even my 50 mile fringe Boston stations, as well as not over power the tuner on my 19 mile stations. I guess it all depends on what kind of SNR the antenna itself is seeing. If it's marginal then obviously no amount of amplification will help. I remain somewhat optimistic at this point.



The SNR gain using a preamp depends on several things including than preamp gain but in with most UHF TV setups it will be a bit less than the cable loss plus the difference between preamp noise figure and the receiver's noise figure. These are usually about 3 and 6. So the improvement in SNR will less than be cable loss plus 3 which will be less than 3+3=6 dB for your case.

John


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17497509
> 
> 
> I should probably add a ground block, though I don't have one at the moment. Do they all pass DC?



Yes, a grounding block is basically a F connector mounted on a chunk of aluminum so it can be bolted down.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17497509
> 
> 
> Also with the preamp, tell me if my math is correct. 12dB signal gain out of the HDP-269. Let's say 3dB of it is noise (probably somewhat less than that, in reality). That's 9dB net SNR gain when taking into account the noise floor. Subtract another 3dB for cable attenuation (70 feet of RG-6) and that's 6dB net SNR gain to the tuner.



My understanding is a little different. The noise figure of the amp - reduces antenna effectiveness. So lets say your antenna is rated as 16dBi, if amp noise figure is 3 dB it is the same as if the antenna had only 13 dBi of gain, connected to a perfect amp. Signal captured by the antenna needs to overcome amp noise figure.


Amplifier gain should be set so signal at receiver is about 10 dB higher then preamp input. Only thing amp does is make up for losses that occur after the antenna, it can't create signal if the antenna does not pick it up. The reason for 10 dB figure that is so signal is larger then noise figure of TV, typically about 6-7 dB. That way TV noise figure can be ignored. Upper bound is determined by overload conditions. Too much is as bad as too little.


Thinking about it in other terms hooking TV directly to the antenna reduces antenna's gain by 6-7 dB, since TVs typically have much worse noise figure then a good preamp. Without preamp, even if TV was very close to the antenna, it would effectively be a 9-10 dBi antenna.


Rule of thumb: preamp gain should exceed cable, connector and splitter losses by at least 10 dB. Upper bound is limited by overload but another 10 dB is probably OK unless you have a lot of nearby stations.


----------



## kevm14

Well if this HDP-269 only offers 12dB of gain, then I don't see how I could be above that 10dB figure you mention. My cable loss alone is going to be about 3dB. Not sure about connectors (that was a question I had asked previously). I have no splitters, at least. Do you think the HDP-269 is the wrong preamp for me?


----------



## systems2000

Connectors are usually calculated at around 0.2 dB.


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17500932
> 
> 
> Well if this HDP-269 only offers 12dB of gain, then I don't see how I could be above that 10dB figure you mention.



You are pretty close with 3 dB cable loss, a few connectors and no splitters.


from the Winegard blurb:
http://winegard.com/kbase/upload/WC-809%20_HDP-269.pdf 


It is designed for urban areas, so extremely low antenna signal level is not going to be a problem. Has enough gain to overcome distribution loss.


If your signals are weak, and there are no extremely strong nearby station may want to look into a preamp with better noise figure and more gain. I'm using a CM 7777 feeding an 8-way splitter that adds 11 dB of loss. You may need to add an attenuator to prevent overload.

Or pick a different Winegard preamp:
http://winegard.com/kbase/upload/chart29.pdf 


Keep in mind noise figure only comes into play if the signal is very weak. Even if you you don't hit the magic 10 dB value a preamp will still help, it overcomes cable loss and has a better noise figure then your TV.


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17500932
> 
> 
> Well if this HDP-269 only offers 12dB of gain, then I don't see how I could be above that 10dB figure you mention. My cable loss alone is going to be about 3dB. Not sure about connectors (that was a question I had asked previously). I have no splitters, at least. Do you think the HDP-269 is the wrong preamp for me?



Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your issue is saturating the preamp, much like mine. This is why many use the HDP-269. You don't have to be at the 10 dB mark, but hitting it keeps your tuner's amp (which is assumed to have a higher noise level than the HDP-269) out of the picture. Getting close is still effective. I have a two way split, a jointenna, and about 20 ft of coax. I saw an increase in signal strength and more importantly, a decrease in noise. If your worried about overloading your preamp, you may not have many options.


One thing about this situation I'm still curious about is the dynamic range. It seems like in a situation like this, you get the gain on the high end from the gain of the preamp, but don't you also gain some useful signal on the low end as well by lowering your noise floor, at least as seen from the tuner? If my tuner has a noise figure of say 7dB and I take the tuner's amp out of the picture by getting around 10dB above all losses (say I have 2 dB of loss in the case of the HDP-269), wouldn't the tuner effectively see another 4dB of signal on the low end, increasing my SNR? Could someone clarify this for me?


----------



## RocketGuy3

Hello again guys. So I moved in to my new place, and the DB2 I bought a while back seems to work pretty well for the majority of channels I want... but I still can't get ABC (RF channel 8). I guess I need a separate VHF antenna afterall, and then a UVSJ combiner.


One antenna I was recommended before was the AntennaCraft Y5-7-13, but that seems pretty large for my purposes. Is there anything smaller that would do well enough for me? Here's my TVfool data again:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...03fbcdecc582ff 


Thanks.


----------



## IDRick

Rocketguy3, you up for building your own? The mclapp 4-bays have moderate high vhf reception and should be able to acquire all your vhf + uhf stations. Check out the thread on this forum "how to build a UHF antenna". Mclapps plans are here: http://www.frontiernet.net/~mclapp/A.../diagrams.html 

http://www.frontiernet.net/~mclapp/Antennas/


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> but I still can't get ABC (RF channel 8). I guess I need a separate VHF antenna afterall, and then a UVSJ combiner.



At 45.5 NM, you should be able to combine cheap rabbit ears with a UVSJ to get that station.


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tschmidt* /forum/post/17501283
> 
> 
> If your signals are weak, and there are no extremely strong nearby station may want to look into a preamp with better noise figure and more gain. I'm using a CM 7777 feeding an 8-way splitter that adds 11 dB of loss. You may need to add an attenuator to prevent overload.
> 
> Or pick a different Winegard preamp:
> http://winegard.com/kbase/upload/chart29.pdf
> 
> 
> Keep in mind noise figure only comes into play if the signal is very weak. Even if you you don't hit the magic 10 dB value a preamp will still help, it overcomes cable loss and has a better noise figure then your TV.



Here is my TV Fool report .


As you can see I have a few strong ones, but I'd also like to consistently receive the 22-34NM range (one is already pretty good, WFXT RF 31 but the rest in that range are in and out). My antenna is fairly high gain (WG-7697P) but I have a bit of a tree problem in my neighborhood. The top 4 stations are why I thought I might need the dynamic range of the HDP-269.


BTW, even after raising my antenna 5 feet to about 20 feet, I still haven't decided on ~32° or 45-50° aim. I have been going back and forth between these. They each have different compromises and I was hoping a preamp would bring in everything from one direction. I am at the 45-50° aim currently, as I have done some aggressive limbing in this direction.


----------



## IDRick

Kevm14,


In your case, it makes sense to aim the antenna at the lower NM towers (29 degrees, compass heading). It will optimize their received signal while taking away only a small amount from the stronger, closer stations at 41 degrees.


HTH,


Rick


----------



## kevm14

You'd think so but the tree issue may complicate things. 45-50° is a clearer limb/tree path. I also have a problem with CW RF 22, which is off axis. Aimed at 45-50 it seems to work ok. And there is the ION RF 17 behind me that I'd like to keep. We'll see what happens after I install the HDP-269.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RocketGuy3* /forum/post/17502503
> 
> 
> Hello again guys. So I moved in to my new place, and the DB2 I bought a while back seems to work pretty well for the majority of channels I want... but I still can't get ABC (RF channel 8). I guess I need a separate VHF antenna afterall, and then a UVSJ combiner.
> 
> 
> One antenna I was recommended before was the AntennaCraft Y5-7-13, but that seems pretty large for my purposes. Is there anything smaller that would do well enough for me? Here's my TVfool data again:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...03fbcdecc582ff
> 
> 
> Thanks.



You could try building one of Holl_and's circular antennas. The image links were took today, of the one I'm currently getting ready to install. It's a 23" VHF-High, with a 13" spacing to the reflector, and yes, that's a 750ml wine bottle for size reference.


I found that 14.25" of exposed pipe (don't forget to leave enough for inside the corner connectors) at the base (x4) is what gave me the 23" distance on the stand-off brackets. I cut my stand-off brackets at 15" and used plastic siamese cable clamps (which are used to anchor coax) to hold the QICT at 13". My screen is plain galv. 2"x3" fencing. It is 30" wide by 36" high.


I couldn't find corner connectors that didn't have one of the entrances threaded. I used my Dremel, with a sanding drum, to remove the threads.


----------



## hayj

Anyone have any suggestions for tightening an 91xg to keep it from turning? It's drifted about 45 degrees in the past couple of weeks and is finally affecting the signal. I'm getting up on the roof sometime this week to turn it back and thought I'd have a plan. From what I recall there's just a couple of wing nuts that I hand tightened. I would rather not take it down and make and major changes if at all possible. Any suggestions?


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hayj* /forum/post/17507948
> 
> 
> Anyone have any suggestions for tightening an 91xg to keep it from turning?



A pair of pliers is all that is needed to tighten the wing nuts. Don't over-tighten them though. Moderate tightening has kept mine in place for 1 1/2 years, even with all the hot air coming from DC.


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/17508014
> 
> 
> A pair of pliers is all that is needed to tighten the wing nuts. Don't over-tighten them though. Moderate tightening has kept mine in place for 1 1/2 years, even with all the hot air coming from DC.



Thanks. I was worried about over tightening, hence the hand tightening. I'll re-aim, hand tighten and then apply a little extra with the pliers. Glad it was that simple.


----------



## jpasadena




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/17504905
> 
> 
> You could try building one of Holl_and's circular antennas.
> 
> 
> [snip]
> 
> 
> My screen is plain galv. 2"x3" fencing. It is 30" wide by 36" high.



I am getting good results with a similar build - loop with reflector

for VHF-hi. I found that in my situation, a slightly bigger reflector,

48" x 48", got my weakest channel (13) over the threshold.

I haven't seen anyone model how the reflector size affects gain,

and in my case it may just be getting the reflector into some of

the patchy hot spots I am dealing with. Looks like you could still

play around with reflector size at this point in your build.


----------



## AntAltMike

I see that someone is listing a used ChannelMaster Parascope 4251 antenna on eBay, presently asking $199 but with no bids yet. The bad news is, he is quoting $158 for shipping, though the listing says you can pick it up in New Hampshire (just outside of Concord).

http://cgi.ebay.com/CHANNEL-MASTER-4...item35a47c8116 


I ran his zip code (Contoocook) through TVfool, and with the digital transition, he is in deep doo-doo. Most of what little analog reception he had was VHF, but nearly all of his old VHF stations have relocated to UHF. He had previously been unable to get the popular Boston UHF stations even in analog, and now that they all are UHF, he is getting zilch for Boston reception


----------



## RocketGuy3

Thanks for the input guys. I tried a bunny ears before, and it didn't work too well, but maybe I need to find the right one or just give it another try seeing as I only need to position it to pick up one channel this time. I hope that works so I don't have to spend money on another antenna.


I get the feeling that TVFool is at least slightly misleading since if the channels really were all coming in that strong, I wouldn't be having this much trouble with ABC. I also have the occasional dropouts on one or two other channels, but I think an amp might fix that.


I probably could/should build an antenna myself, but I'm just too lazy. =P


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/17508014
> 
> 
> A pair of pliers is all that is needed to tighten the wing nuts. Don't over-tighten them though. Moderate tightening has kept mine in place for 1 1/2 years, even with all the hot air coming from DC.



Worked for me, too. At first I only hand-tightened until my fingers hurt, and it didn't take too many windy days to knock it out of whack. When I adjusted it again, I did the same thing but also added maybe another quarter-turn with pliers. That seemed to work fine, as we've had quite a lot of days with 30-50 MPH gusts and it hasn't moved at all since.


----------



## Larry Kenney

Quick question... what's the advantage of using a joiner/coupler like the Wingard CC 7870 instead of a regular splitter used "backward"?


I have two antennas, a VHF-UHF and a UHF tied together with just a backward splitter. Would I get better results with a 7870?


Larry

SF


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/17516244
> 
> 
> Quick question... what's the advantage of using a joiner/coupler like the Wingard CC 7870 instead of a regular splitter used "backward"?
> 
> 
> I have two antennas, a VHF-UHF and a UHF tied together with just a backward splitter. Would I get better results with a 7870?
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF



Why are you using a VHF/UHF antenna and a seperate UHF antenna? Just curious. I have a VHF antenna, a 2 seperate UHF antennas (3 seperate antennas) and have found that (for me) this to be the best combo. I have VHF and UHF#1 joined using a UVSJ and I joined UHF#2 to UHF#1 via a balun on #2 and coax to another balun on UHF#1. I have 2 UHF 4 bay antennas to get reception from 2 different cities. I have been told it is a bad idea to join the 2 UHF antennas like this, but I get incredibly stable & excellent reception using this method.


Initially I did have reception issues, but I found that I had the 2 UHF antennas too close together. All antennas are on a 10' mast with the VHF at the top, then about 1 foot down (give or take) the first UHF antenna pointed towards one city and then another 1 foot (give or take) the 2nd UHF antenna pointed at the other city.


Here is a picture to give you an idea of what it looks like. The bottom antenna was repositioned after the picture was taken and is now down so the bottom reflector rod rests on top of the PVC vent pipe.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...9&d=1251496414


----------



## Ratman

LOL! You should fix that rain gutter.


----------



## kevm14

Got my HDP-269 and installed it today (thanks to our veterans of war).


For raw numbers of channels, I tallied 3 different categories.


Total channels and sub-channels received with solid signal: 36

Subtracting currently unused sub-channels: 32

Unused and channels where programming is duplicated (either lower res format or just plain duplicated, across the guide): 26


For example, PBS 2.2 is always a 480 version of 2.1, a 1080i channel.

ABC 6.2 seems to be always a 480 version of 6.1, a 720P channel.

ION 69.1 is a 480 version of ION 68.1.

ION 68.2, 3 and 4 are duplicates of 69.2, 3 and 4, but 69 should be more reliable so I don't need the 68.x's in my guide.


I didn't include channels that share the same network (RI and Boston ABC, RI and Boston CBS, RI and Boston Fox, RI and Boston NBC, RI and Boston CW, etc) because while they MAY share the same prime time programming not everything is the same, so I don't consider them duplicates. The ones above, as far as I can tell, are.


I've got my antenna at about 42°, pointed just to the right of a white pine tree trunk, as that seemed to be the best compromise. Everything is mostly great with just a few fairly infrequent breakups on a few of my tougher Boston channels. I'm a little concerned how this will hold out through next spring as foliage once again thickens but for now things seem nice. At least today. I'll update over the next week or so, because I've seen how inconsistent reception can be on marginal channels, with my tree coverage.


----------



## Splicer010









Yeah, its getting replaced here shortly.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/17516419
> 
> 
> Why are you using a VHF/UHF antenna and a seperate UHF antenna? Just curious.



I have a channel 12 plus UHF channels 27, 28, 40 and 41 in one direction where I use the combination antenna, and channel 7 plus several UHFs in another direction where I use just the UHF antenna. Channel 7 is strong enough to give me a 90 to 92% signal using just the UHF.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/17516419
> 
> 
> I have a VHF antenna, a 2 seperate UHF antennas (3 seperate antennas) and have found that (for me) this to be the best combo. I have VHF and UHF#1 joined using a UVSJ and I joined UHF#2 to UHF#1 via a balun on #2 and coax to another balun on UHF#1. I have 2 UHF 4 bay antennas to get reception from 2 different cities.



You lost me with that configuration! Glad it works for you.


I'm still wondering if a 7870 will give better results than just a backward splitter.


Larry

SF


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/17516795
> 
> 
> 
> You lost me with that configuration! Glad it works for you.
> 
> 
> I'm still wondering if a 7870 will give better results than just a backward splitter.
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF



Larry, I figured I would lose you, thats why I posted the picture link for a vsual aid.










Here is the important part of my description:


> Quote:
> I joined UHF#2 to UHF#1 via a balun on #2 and coax to another balun on UHF#1.



Point being that a splitter or combiner will cause more signal loss than the use of joining the antenna using a balun and a piece of coax and keeping the 2 antennas seperated by at least 1 foot. It worked for me, and is certainly worth a try for you in my humble opinion, as you won't know if it works unless you try.


However, to answer your specific question, the CC 7870 is nothing more than a splitter used as a combiner, with the exception that the 7870 is a mast mount design. Same insertion loss applies to both. So better results is very unlikely.


----------



## rabbit73

Re: Winegard CC-7870:
http://winegard.com/kbase/kb_tip_res...hp?tip_num=291


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/17517668
> 
> 
> Re: Winegard CC-7870:
> http://winegard.com/kbase/kb_tip_res...hp?tip_num=291



...which says it's nothing more than a backwards splitter inside that plastic case with a mast clamp...


ROFL!


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/17517914
> 
> 
> ...which says it's nothing more than a backwards splitter inside that plastic case with a mast clamp...
> 
> 
> ROFL!



Which is exactly what I said already.


----------



## Larry Kenney

I won't change a thing. My backward splitter is working and apparently the CC-7870 is the same thing in a fancy box.


Thanks, guys!


Larry

SF


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/17516244
> 
> 
> I have two antennas, a VHF-UHF and a UHF tied together with just a backward splitter. Would I get better results with a 7870?




In your case the better option is two feedlines and an A/B switch.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/17389967
> 
> 
> And look for what exactly to indicate improper/proper phasing?
> 
> 
> IF they are PCB baluns AND they aren't phased identically, I'd be looking for a different antenna manufacturer.
> 
> 
> In practice, it's not difficult to tell whether the phasing is correct. If (in the case of a PCB balun) it's necessary to turn the antenna over to phase it properly for stacking I'd call the manufacturer and demand a properly manufactured antenna.



Winegard's current manufacture PCB baluns are shipped in their own small boxes and can be plugged in either way, so if you are planning on stacking two of them in phase, you have to make sure that you plug both of them in the same way.


----------



## kovax

Thanks to all for the advice. I finally installed the second DB-8 this weekend and it seems to work well (enough). On a good reception day in the past, I was getting signal strength in the mid-60s (as rated by my DishNetwork DVR) with somewhat frequent dropout and bad days with no signal whatsoever (signal strength below mid-50s seems to be interpreted by the DVR as 0). Now signal strength seems to be in the mid-70s. It still bounces around a lot, but significantly less frequent drop outs. I'm hoping that the improvement is real and not just I've had some good reception days lately. Evening and nighttime reception is very good, hitting signal strength in the 80s and 90s.


I was a little disappointed to read earlier posts that the Wingard CC 7870 I installed is just a reverse splitter. 30% loss from each antenna seems to really limit the value of adding a second antenna. Fortunately it seems like I only needed a little bump in reception. Any other suggestions for more effective combining of signals?


Thanks again, Dan



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kovax* /forum/post/17384991
> 
> 
> I'm adding an second 8-bay antenna (AntennasDirect db8) to my antenna mast to make a 16-bay antenna as per the instructions on hdtvprimer.com as suggested to me on this forum.
> 
> 
> In the primer for building a 16 bay it says: "There is a chance that you will mix up the polarities such that the two antennas subtract instead of add. After the antenna is fully hooked up, you should rotate the antenna to check for this pattern. If so then you have to reverse the connections on one of the antennas."
> 
> 
> My question: The output of the AD DB8 is a 75 Ohm coax connection, not the 2-wire output of some antennas. With this setup, is polarity still an issue? If so, what is the solution? Turn the antenna upside down? Disconnect and turn the antenna's transformer box upside down?
> 
> 
> I'll be using the Wingard CC 7870 2-way Antenna Joiner Coupler to join the signals.
> 
> 
> Thanks, Dan


----------



## Splicer010

30%? Where'd you get that number from? Try losing 50%. A 2 way splitter cuts the power in half. What you want to do is install a LOW NOISE pre-amp or a low noise amp. Typically a gain of 15dB and should recover what you are losing.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kovax* /forum/post/17523240
> 
> 
> I was a little disappointed to read earlier posts that the Wingard CC 7870 I installed is just a reverse splitter. 30% loss from each antenna seems to really limit the value of adding a second antenna. Any other suggestions for more effective combining of signals?



The previous post referred to adding two antennas aimed in two directions. I believe that you are trying to add gain to an existing antenna using a second antenna in the same direction.


The CC7870 is the right coupler for you. There will be signal addition, not loss.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17524351
> 
> 
> The previous post referred to adding two antennas aimed in two directions. I believe that you are trying to add gain to an existing antenna using a second antenna in the same direction.
> 
> 
> The CC7870 is the right coupler for you. There will be signal addition, not loss.



Yes. If you get the antennas and feedlines arranged so that the signals are in phase, you can acheive a theoretical doubling of the signal instead of a halving. In practice, if you get 2.5 dB improvement, you've done very well.


If the antennas are not phased together, then you suffer the loss.


----------



## kovax




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/17523330
> 
> 
> 30%? Where'd you get that number from? Try losing 50%. A 2 way splitter cuts the power in half. What you want to do is install a LOW NOISE pre-amp or a low noise amp. Typically a gain of 15dB and should recover what you are losing.



That was from the manufacturer referenced in an earlier post.

http://winegard.com/kbase/kb_tip_res...hp?tip_num=291 


This is a splitter being used as a combiner.


----------



## kovax




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/17524802
> 
> 
> Yes. If you get the antennas and feedlines arranged so that the signals are in phase, you can acheive a theoretical doubling of the signal instead of a halving. In practice, if you get 2.5 dB improvement, you've done very well.
> 
> 
> If the antennas are not phased together, then you suffer the loss.



Yes, I'm getting an overall improvement of signal. The "loss" I was referring to is of the theoretical potential of each individual antenna without a combiner. So instead of getting twice the signal of a single antenna, I'm getting 70% from EACH individual antenna (because of losses in the combiner), adding to something like 140% of the signal I was getting with only one antenna.


What I was asking was whether there was a way to combine the antennas before the transformer box that connects to the cable wire so that you don't need the 7870 combiner (and the associated signal loss) getting closer to the theoretical doubling of total signal. Or does any method of connecting the two result in a similar magnitude of "combiner loss"?


It's really just a theoretical question. I'm pretty happy with the results that I achieved in combining the antennas as I did.


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kovax* /forum/post/17527957
> 
> 
> That was from the manufacturer referenced in an earlier post.
> 
> http://winegard.com/kbase/kb_tip_res...hp?tip_num=291
> 
> 
> This is a splitter being used as a combiner.



I understand. But the problem is, the loss thru the splitter is the same even when used as a combiner. That "tech tip" is correct that there is a loss, but wrong on the amount of the loss.


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> It's really just a theoretical question. I'm pretty happy with the results that I achieved in combining the antennas as I did.



Ultimately that is all that matters, that it works for you.


In my situation, I have 2 UHF antennas pointed in different directions. To join them, I did like you, used a 2 way of high quality as a combiner. The resulting loss of signal was just too great to overcome, even with the use of a +15dB pre-amp. My solution is one that I have already explained and is looked upon as the wrong way that "will do more harm than good". So as I said, in the end the only thing that matters is how it works for YOU.










Even though it is working well for you, you are only getting 50% from each antenna since you are running it thru the splitter/combiner. You can still of course have your 'gain' that will makeup for the loss, but it depends on the actual gain as to how much of the loss is overcome. In your case, what you really have achieved is not so much a gain in signal strength, but rather a greater area of reception since you have effectively 'enlarged' the 'capture' area.


Again, what matters is that it works for you and you are satisfied.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17521417
> 
> 
> In your case the better option is two feedlines and an A/B switch.



Not when the feed is for a DVR. You have to get all of the stations all of the time, or you're sure to miss something by having the switch in the wrong position.


I have an A-B-C switch for the rest of my system where I can choose from three different antenna systems. You ought to see the antennas on my roof!

A=CM4228 on rotor, B=another CM4228 with Y-10-7-13 on rotor, C=Antennas Direct C5. The antennas for the DVR are a Radio Shack VHF-UHF combo and an Antennas Direct SR-15 UHF tied together with the backward splitter.


This way I get reliable recordings while at the same time I can play around with the other antennas to pull in the more distant stations on the TV. I do have an A-B switch on the input of the DVR in case I want to record a distant station, but normally the switch is left in the A position with the fixed antennas.


It works for me.


Larry

SF


----------



## Colm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/17528436
> 
> 
> Even though it is working well for you, you are only getting 50% from each antenna since you are running it thru the splitter/combiner.



Not true. You will get 100% of the signal from each antenna, less the loss inherent in the combiner, about .5dB. or about 12%. If the signals are in phase, they will sum. That is why you can get about 2.5 dB if you properly combine the signals of two identical antennas. If they are totally out of phase they will cancel. And if somewhere in between, the result will be in between.


If you get a given channel only from one of the antennas, you will have about 12% less signal strength after going through the combiner than if the combiner was not there, or about 84%.


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/17529956
> 
> 
> Not true. You will get 100% of the signal from each antenna, less the loss inherent in the combiner, about .5dB. or about 12%. If the signals are in phase, they will sum. That is why you can get about 2.5 dB if you properly combine the signals of two identical antennas. If they are totally out of phase they will cancel. And if somewhere in between, the result will be in between.
> 
> 
> If you get a given channel only from one of the antennas, you will have about 12% less signal strength after going through the combiner than if the combiner was not there, or about 84%.



100% of each antenna _before_ the splitter. The loss in any 2 way splitter is 3.5dB and at each connection point is .5dB. Don't know where you got the idea that the loss thru a splitter/combiner (which is one and the same) is only .5dB. There isn't a reduction in the splitters loss when turned around and used as a combiner. You will lose 3.5dB on each input leg. IE...5dB in = approx 1.5dB out. The 5dB figure includes the 2.5dB gain. Without that gain, and a 2.5dB input leaves you with -1dB output.


----------



## Colm

Splitter with 3.5dB insertion loss:


10.5dB input gives two 7 dB outputs. 3dB reduction in each output is due to splitting signal in two. .5dB is due to losses in the splitter.


Same device used as combiner:


Two 7dB inputs sum to 10dB. .5dB lost in the splitter. Output is 9.5dB. Net gain from using two identical inputs is 2.5dB.


----------



## Splicer010

LOL! What the hell is this:


> Quote:
> Splitter with 3.5dB insertion loss:
> 
> 
> 10.5dB .5dB ---------------7dB out
> 
> from -------------- loss from
> 
> source splitter ---------------7dB out
> 
> 
> 3dB of the insertion loss is due to splitting the signal in two. .5dB is loss inherent to the splitter.
> 
> 
> Same device used as combiner
> 
> 
> 7dB source--------------.5dB
> 
> loss from----------9.5 dB out
> 
> 7dB source--------------splitter


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/17530353
> 
> 
> Splitter with 3.5dB insertion loss:
> 
> 
> 10.5dB input gives two 7 dB outputs. 3dB reduction in each output is due to splitting signal in two. .5dB is due to losses in the splitter.
> 
> 
> Same device used as combiner:
> 
> 
> Two 7dB inputs sum to 10dB. .5dB lost in the splitter. Output is 9.5dB. Net gain from using two identical inputs is 2.5dB.










LOL! Sorry partner. A passive combiner does not raise/add signal level. Quite the opposite really.


----------



## Colm

Then please explain how some members here combine two identical antennas properly spaced and pointed in the same direction using a passive combiner to get 2.5dB gain.


Or please explain how I can combine a VHF antenna and a UHF antenna with a passive device and not more than halve the signal from either one.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/17530495
> 
> 
> Then please explain how some members here combine two identical antennas properly spaced and pointed in the same direction using a passive combiner to get 2.5dB gain.
> 
> 
> Or please explain how I can combine a VHF antenna and a UHF antenna with a passive device and not more than halve the signal from either one.




Answer #1 read this http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/16bay.html 


Answer #2 use a UVSJ.


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/17530495
> 
> 
> Then please explain how some members here combine two identical antennas properly spaced and pointed in the same direction using a passive combiner to get 2.5dB gain.



I'm not saying you can't get a +2.5dB gain using 2 antennas instead of a single antenna. I am saying that using a 2 way splitter as a combiner will net a loss of -3.5dB the same as when used as a splitter. You are saying there is only a loss of -.5dB when a splitter is used as a combiner and it just doesn't work that way.


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/17530495
> 
> 
> Or please explain how I can combine a VHF antenna and a UHF antenna with a passive device and not more than halve the signal from either one.



Just noticed you added more to your post. And now you have me confused. This whole time our discussion has been about 2 of the same antennas, or at least that was the impression I was under. And now you are talking about joining VHF and UHF antennas that are not the same. So which is it?


To correctly join a VHF & UHF antenna, as has been said in post 1661, a UVSJ is needed. A UVSY is not the same as a splitter and as such has lower loss.


I have 2 antennas that are the same, but aimed in different directions, as well as a VHF antenna and they are joined using baluns and a UVSJ. See my earlier post in this thread for details and photos.


----------



## MajesticPete

Hi, I'm using a TERRESTRIAL DIGITAL Lacrosse A HDTV Antenna With Amplifier installed on the roof of a 2-floor house.


The setup is coax from antenna (roof) goes to the basement into the amplifier (came with antenna, plugs into the outlet) > into an x8 splitter (LaVa, from ebay, cheap, and covers cable/sat/OTR freq., unamplified) > to TV.


To summarize: antenna > ~60ft rg6 > amp > 1ft rg6 > x8 splitter > ~40ft rg6 > TV.


PROBLEM:

if i use the splitter, i get like 3 channels (of about 15), and all 3 are freezing/pixelerated.

if i remove the splitter (connect from amp rg6 to rg6 that leads up to TV, by using just a regular connector) i get possible channels w/ perferct picture.


Is there any other splitter i should try, or are they all the same?


TIA.

-mp


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Is there any other splitter i should try, or are they all the same?



Do you need an 8X split ? Yeah, I would try a different splitter or use a quality distribution amp.


----------



## finlay648




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MajesticPete* /forum/post/17533959
> 
> 
> Hi, I'm using a TERRESTRIAL DIGITAL Lacrosse A HDTV Antenna With Amplifier installed on the roof of a 2-floor house.
> 
> 
> The setup is coax from antenna (roof) goes to the basement into the amplifier (came with antenna, plugs into the outlet) > into an x8 splitter (LaVa, from ebay, cheap, and covers cable/sat/OTR freq., unamplified) > to TV.
> 
> 
> To summarize: antenna > ~60ft rg6 > amp > 1ft rg6 > x8 splitter > ~40ft rg6 > TV.
> 
> 
> PROBLEM:
> 
> if i use the splitter, i get like 3 channels (of about 15), and all 3 are freezing/pixelerated.
> 
> if i remove the splitter (connect from amp rg6 to rg6 that leads up to TV, by using just a regular connector) i get possible channels w/ perferct picture.
> 
> 
> Is there any other splitter i should try, or are they all the same?
> 
> 
> TIA.
> 
> -mp



Try a Channel Master CM3418 distribution amp instead of the splitter.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/17530413
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL! Sorry partner. A passive combiner does not raise/add signal level. Quite the opposite really.



LOL right back at you. You're the one that's wrong.


Ron


----------



## jjeff




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/17529956
> 
> 
> Not true. You will get 100% of the signal from each antenna, less the loss inherent in the combiner, about .5dB. or about 12%. If the signals are in phase, they will sum. That is why you can get about 2.5 dB if you properly combine the signals of *two identical antennas*. If they are totally *out of phase they will cancel*. And if somewhere in between, the result will be in between.
> 
> 
> If you get a given channel only from one of the antennas, you will have about 12% less signal strength after going through the combiner than if the combiner was not there, or about 84%.



Colm is 100% correct. I think why splicer010 isn't seeing this is because according to his post "In my situation, I have 2 UHF antennas pointed in different directions" doing this will result in losses. As Clom said above the signals must be in phase(exact same antennas and pointed in the exact same direction). The only way you can have different antennas pointed in different directions and see appreciable gains is if each antenna is a different band(UHF/VHF, VHF high/VHF low, etc.) or separate channel antennas in conjunction with the correct combiners(not just a regular splitter). In this case you will be seeing only particular frequencies on each antenna, they won't be combining same frequency's for a net gain.

Again if you you have a strong enough signal you may have luck with 2 different antennas pointed in 2 different directions with just a simple backwards splitter(in which case that might be good enough for you) but you'd have even better luck doing it correctly.


----------



## superorb

I'd like to build an antenna for my attic to receive OTA signals. According to AntennaWeb I need a "Yellow" type antenna. Is the basic 4-bay DIY antenna the best for my purposes? The 1st post hasn't been updated in years so I figured I'd post.


----------



## Splicer010

Hi jjeff. I have 2 UHF antennas that are identical make/model but pointed in different directions. Just so you are clear on what I am using.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Quote:
> 
> Originally Posted by Splicer010
> 
> LOL! Sorry partner. A passive combiner does not raise/add signal level. Quite the opposite really.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL right back at you. You're the one that's wrong.
> 
> 
> Ron
Click to expand...


Too funny. Please explain to me and everyone else Ron, just how a *passive* combiner itself can raise/add signal level then.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *superorb* /forum/post/17538342
> 
> 
> I'd like to build an antenna for my attic to receive OTA signals. According to AntennaWeb I need a "Yellow" type antenna. Is the basic 4-bay DIY antenna the best for my purposes? The 1st post hasn't been updated in years so I figured I'd post.



What channels do you wish to receive VHF, UHF or both?


----------



## superorb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/17538967
> 
> 
> What channels do you wish to receive VHF, UHF or both?



I'm not sure really. I'd like to receive HD OTA channels, but I don't know if they're broadcast in UHF or VHF in my area.


----------



## Keenan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *superorb* /forum/post/17538978
> 
> 
> I'm not sure really. I'd like to receive HD OTA channels, but I don't know if they're broadcast in UHF or VHF in my area.



Try the below site, just put your zipcode in the form and it will generate a list of the channels available in your area.

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=29


----------



## superorb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keenan* /forum/post/17539002
> 
> 
> Try the below site, just put your zipcode in the form and it will generate a list of the channels available in your area.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=29



Ok, got it. I'm only interested in the major networks like ABC, NBC, FOX, etc. It doesn't look like much else that I'd normally watch anyways. I'm only 13 miles form the transmitter so I'm pretty close. How can I tell if these stations are UHF or VHF now?


----------



## Keenan

See the two charts at the bottom? There's one for VHF and another for UHF.


It looks to me like all your major nets, CBS, NBC, PBS, FOX, CW are all UHF and the ABC channel is VHF.


----------



## superorb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keenan* /forum/post/17539069
> 
> 
> See the two charts at the bottom? There's one for VHF and another for UHF.
> 
> 
> It looks to me like all your major nets, CBS, NBC, PBS, FOX, CW are all UHF and the ABC channel is VHF.



So it looks like all UHF with the exception of 1 station on the High VHF scale.


----------



## Keenan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *superorb* /forum/post/17539080
> 
> 
> So it looks like all UHF with the exception of 1 station on the High VHF scale.



That's what I see, yes.


----------



## superorb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keenan* /forum/post/17539131
> 
> 
> That's what I see, yes.



So back to my original question, what would be the most effective antenna for me to build provided it will live in the attic out of sight? Thanks for the help thus far.


----------



## Keenan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *superorb* /forum/post/17539184
> 
> 
> So back to my original question, what would be the most effective antenna for me to build provided it will live in the attic out of sight? Thanks for the help thus far.



At 13 miles with line of sight you're not going need much. I use a 91XG myself but that's because I'm a good 60 miles from the transmitter. Hopefully some folks here more familiar with close range antennas will give you some recommendations.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *superorb* /forum/post/17539184
> 
> 
> So back to my original question, what would be the most effective antenna for me to build provided it will live in the attic out of sight? Thanks for the help thus far.



I don't know that a single aim will be possible for all of your channels, such as PBS. You might want to try a single classic bowtie near a window first. I know it is a UHF antenna, but the flat wire also acts as an antenna. I've reliably received rf 9 (Nm db 54) with a bowtie for over a month now. You've got stronger signal there than I have here. It might work. Good Luck.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/17538907
> 
> 
> Too funny. Please explain to me and everyone else Ron, just how a *passive* combiner itself can raise/add signal level then.



?


The -3.5db loss on each leg is if it is used to split the signal or assuming lack of phasing if used as a combiner. 3db is 50 percent loss due to the split (or incorrect phase) and .5 db is through-loss.


However, if you phase properly with two identical antennas pointed in the same direction and equal coax lengths to the combiner you'll see increased performance over a single antenna even using a common splitter. The problem is that common splitters just don't phase very well no matter what. That's the reason stripline combiners work better.


In your situation with the antennas pointed in different directions, the -3.5 db loss should be roughly accurate. Additionally, though, you generate multipath which is the reason it would be technically better to use an A/B switch and two downleads.


----------



## rabbit73

I have found the Apex DT502 to be very useful when trying to solve OTA antenna problems. It gives not only signal strength but also signal quality. It's a measurement bargain even without the coupon. But, the supply has dried up, so I wanted to try the Centronics ZAT502 HD because it has the the same tuner and dual signal bars. The Centronics is in short supply and I noticed that some Sony TVs have a diagnostics screen mentioned in the pdf manual but no screen shots of it.

I went to a local store to look at the diagnostics screen in the menu of a KDL-26L5000 and then ordered a KDL-22L5000. (The KDL-xxM3000 manual also mentions a diagnostics screen.) The diagnostics screen looks like this:











Now that I have all three units I am able to make a comparison using them, a SLM (signal level meter), and a 4-way splitter. My previous tests were done in my car to get away from the street traffic in front of my antenna at home that causes the readings to vary (but the signals stay locked when they are strong) and I was able to drive to strong and weak signal areas. I couldn't work that out because having the 22-inch TV in the car was a big logistical problem. I stayed at home, ran the tests at night with light traffic, and used preamps to vary the signal levels. I also rigged up a mic, amp, and speaker to listen for the traffic to ignore readings when cars were passing by.


The first test used two preamps; a CM7777 near the antenna and a RS 15-1115 inline preamp (one of my better RS purchases) before the attenuator to find out where the signal meters maxed out:

antenna-> 7777-> 50 ft coax-> CM power inserter-> RS amp-> attenuator-> 4-way splitter:

Code:


Code:


Attn    Apex   Centronics       Sony          SLM     Equiv
 dB    Q    S    Q    S      S   Er   SNR     dBmV     dBm
  0   100  87   100  89     79   0    25     +18.5   -30.3
  3   100  86   100  89     79   0    25     +15.0   -33.8
  6   100  86   100  89     79   0    25     +11.9   -36.9
  9   100  86   100  88     79   0    25      +8.8   -40.0
 12   100  85   100  88     79   0    25      +5.9   -42.9
 15   100  85   100  88     79   0    25      +3.1   -45.7
 18   100  83   100  87     79   0    25       0.0   -48.8
 21   100  79   100  85     79   0    25      -3.5   -52.3

"Q" is quality, "S" is strength.

Sony IF-AGC figures not listed because in all cases they were the same as strength.


The RS preamp was removed, leaving only the 7777 (my normal setup):
Code:


Code:


Attn    Apex   Centronics       Sony          SLM     Equiv
 dB    Q    S    Q    S      S   Er   SNR     dBmV     dBm
  0   100  84   100  88     79   0    25      +3.0   -45.8
  3   100  81   100  87     79   0    25      -0.8   -49.6
  6   100  78   100  84     79   0    25      -3.9   -52.7
  9   100  73   100  80     78   0    25      -7.0   -55.8
 12   100  69   100  76     76   0    25     -10.0   -58.8
 15   100  66   100  71     74   0    25     -12.9   -61.7
 18   100  62   100  67     71   0    25     -15.7   -64.5
 21   100  58   100  63     69   0    25     -18.6   -67.4
 24   100  54   100  59     66   0    25     -21.6   -70.4
 27   100  49   100  54     62   0    24     -25.4   -74.2
 30   100  45   100  50     59   0    23     -28.2   -77.0
 33   100  38   100  45     55   0    21     -32.0   -80.8

The 7777 was removed (to simulate weak signals) leaving only the coax between the antenna and the attenuator:
Code:


Code:


Attn    Apex   Centronics       Sony          SLM     Equiv
 dB    Q    S    Q    S      S   Er   SNR     dBmV     dBm
  0   100  55   100  58     66   0    24     -22.0   -70.8
  3   100  49   100  53     62   0    24     -25.9   -74.7
  6   100  45   100  49     58   0    22     -29.0   -77.8

The RS preamp was inserted between the splitter and the SLM because the meter was near the bottom of scale, and I repeated the test just above. The preamp noise figure does not affect the tuners because it isn't in line with them:
Code:


Code:


Attn    Apex   Centronics       Sony         SLM+amp dBmV corr  Equiv
 dB    Q    S    Q    S      S   Er   SNR     dBmV    for amp    dBm
  0   100  54   100  58     66   0    25      -6.1    -22.1    -70.9
  3   100  49   100  53     62   0    24      -9.3    -25.3    -74.1
  6   100  44   100  49     58   0    23     -12.1    -28.1    -76.9
  9   100  38   100  44     55   0    21     -14.9    -30.9    -79.7
 12    77  27    65  38     55   0    18     -18.1    -34.1    -82.9
 15    26V  0    20V 27     55   0    16     -21.2    -37.2    -86.0
 18   dropout   dropout     55 3099V  13F    -24.3    -40.3    -89.1

A "V" after a figure means that it varies; the Sony errors are updated about once every second. An "F" after the SNR means that the display is frozen at that value. Adding even more attenuation makes the Sony screen go black and say "no signal." At least 15.5 to 16 dB SNR is needed to maintain lock.


When aiming or comparing antennas using the signal strength meter you must keep it below the max value (where your meter doesn't go any higher) by using an attenuator. In my case, that would mean keeping it well below 86 for the Apex, 89 for the Centronics, and 79 for the Sony.


Attachment No. 1 shows a Sony "frozen screen" at 13 dB SNR.

Attachment No. 2 is the RS preamp specs.

Attachment No. 3 is the RS preamp diagram. RS used to print diagrams in the manual, but they don't anymore . I think that's a mistake, because showing the diagram encourages experimentation, which means more sales. Looking at the diagram, you can see how the RF signal and the DC power are combined on the coax using capacitors and chokes (inductors). Capacitors pass RF but block DC; chokes pass DC but block RF.


----------



## MTVhike

Yesterday, I installed two Winegard antennas - YA-1713 high VHF, and a 9095P UHF. Each has a plastic box with a PC board balun, to provide 75 ohm connections. However, the UHF one also has a connector for a VHF antenna, so I guess that is a combiner also. I am using a CM7777 preamp with dual inputs, so I don't use the combiner mounted on the UHF antenna, so I put a 75 ohm cap on that input. How does this configuration relate to the discussions above?


This appears to work well, pulling in WNJN RF 51 in New Jersey, 55 miles away fairly well. I still don't get WCBS RF 22 or WWOR RF 38 (I get all the other NYC stations, as well as some CT ones). Tomorrow, I am getting a 24 ft mast to raise this assembly (currently the VHF one is about 1 ft above my porch roof, and the UHF one is below it - my current 10 foot mast is mounted on my deck). Any suggestions? I'll post a photo of this assembly when I can get one (it's nightime now).


----------



## superorb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/17539443
> 
> 
> I don't know that a single aim will be possible for all of your channels, such as PBS. You might want to try a single classic bowtie near a window first. I know it is a UHF antenna, but the flat wire also acts as an antenna. I've reliably received rf 9 (Nm db 54) with a bowtie for over a month now. You've got stronger signal there than I have here. It might work. Good Luck.



I'm only interested in the major networks like ABC, NBC, FOX, CBS.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *superorb* /forum/post/17539184
> 
> 
> So back to my original question, what would be the most effective antenna for me to build provided it will live in the attic out of sight? Thanks for the help thus far.



Before you build one, you might want to try this specific model (Catalog # 15-1874) indoor VHF/UHF antenna which is very inexpensive and has worked quite well for many AVSForum members that are not very far from the towers.. You can use it indoors or (better) in the attic, with a coax extension.


The loop part of the antenna is for all the UHF channels. The dipole "rods" are for the lone VHF (abc) channel in your area. Extend each rod about 13" each and in a "V". Aim the antenna perpendicular to the towers.


If it doesn't work, just return it for a refund and come back here for more suggestions.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *superorb* /forum/post/17539713
> 
> 
> I'm only interested in the major networks like ABC, NBC, FOX, CBS.



If the top 6 channels on your tvfool chart are all that you need, then you probably won't need multiple aims. I can only say probably though. If multiple aims are required, these are easier to accomplish if the antenna is not in the attic. If multiple aims are not required, then a single trip to the attic should do the trick. The RS budget antenna is both VHF and UHF and probably a good bet. You might also be able to receive those top 6 channels with a pair of rabbit ears alone. Yes, rabbit ears do pick up UHF signal as well.

I'm watching Fox on rf 40 right now with a pair.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/17538907
> 
> 
> Too funny. Please explain to me and everyone else Ron, just how a *passive* combiner itself can raise/add signal level then.



It's simple. A splitter is a reciprocal device. The input and outputs ports are interchangeable. As a splitter, if we apply 10 microwatts to the input port, we get (ignoring losses for now) 5 microwatts on each output port. As a combiner, if we apply 5 microwatts to each input port, we get 10 microwatts on the output port.


What is so difficult to believe about that?

http://www.w8ji.com/combiner_and_splitters.htm 


Ron


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/17540447
> 
> 
> It's simple. A splitter is a reciprocal device. The input and outputs ports are interchangeable. As a splitter, if we apply 10 microwatts to the input port, we get (ignoring losses for now) 5 microwatts on each output port. As a combiner, if we apply 5 microwatts to each input port, we get 10 microwatts on the output port.
> 
> 
> What is so difficult to believe about that?
> 
> http://www.w8ji.com/combiner_and_splitters.htm
> 
> 
> Ron










Incredible. I hope you aren't really a dr and just play one on the internet. I know exactly what a splitter is and what it does. I've only used them professionally for 27+ years. Nobody here that I am aware of, including myself, has ever denied the fact that combining 5+5=10 on the output. The whole point is that a *PASSIVE* combiner cannot add or raise the signal. The ONLY way to raise the signal is to raise the input level. I'll say it again, it is *IMPOSSIBLE* for a *PASSIVE* combiner to raise/add signal level on its own. The key word is *PASSIVE*. Now if you are talking about an ACTIVE combiner (and you are not) that would be a different story.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/17540516
> 
> 
> Nobody here that I am aware of, including myself, has ever denied the fact that combining 5+5=10 on the output.



You disagreed with Colm, yet he is saying exactly the same thing. 5 + 5 = 10. I'm not sure what your point really is.


Ron


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/17540837
> 
> 
> You disagreed with Colm, yet he is saying exactly the same thing. 5 + 5 = 10. I'm not sure what your point really is.
> 
> 
> Ron



Ummmm, you really should read the entire conversation before you just jump in and say to me:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> You're the one that's wrong.



Had you done so you would have seen that this is what I was saying:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I'm not saying you can't get a +2.5dB gain using 2 antennas instead of a single antenna. I am saying that using a 2 way splitter as a combiner will net a loss of -3.5dB the same as when used as a splitter. You are saying there is only a loss of -.5dB when a splitter is used as a combiner and it just doesn't work that way.



Colm is stating that instead of a -3.5dB loss when used as a splitter, that when used as a combiner the loss is +3dB less and is only -.5dB. I corrected him and you are saying I am wrong, when it is the both of you that is wrong. That has been, and remains still as my point.


And since this has been so blown out of proportion and you guys seem so confused about all this, and post pointless links about combiners, then this will really blow your minds: The -3.5dB loss is PER LEG and not the total loss.


----------



## dr1394

Are you saying that splitters and combiners are two different things?


Ron


----------



## Splicer010




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/17541125
> 
> 
> Are you saying that splitters and combiners are two different things?
> 
> 
> Ron










Are you just being a troll or what? Because now it is my turn to ask, what is your point?










Did you bother to do what I told you about reading the whole conversation before jumping into it? Ehhhhh...no. I didn't believe you did. So go back and read the WHOLE conversation from the BEGINNING Ron.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/17541178
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you just being a troll or what? Because now it is my turn to ask, what is your point?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you bother to do what I told you about reading the whole conversation before jumping into it? Ehhhhh...no. I didn't believe you did. So go back and read the WHOLE conversation from the BEGINNING Ron.



I'm not trying to be a troll and I have read the whole conversation. I'm just trying to clearly understand where you're coming from.


On one hand, you agree that a combiner can add two 5 microwatt signals to produce a 10 microwatt signal (ignoring losses). On the other hand, you state that a splitter being used as a combiner will attenuate each leg by 3 dB, therefore applying two 5 microwatt signals will produce 2.5 + 2.5 = 5 microwatts.


So I asked you, "are splitters and combiners two different things?" because that is what you are implying.


Ron


----------



## Splicer010

A combiner is a splitter.



> Quote:
> On one hand, you agree that a combiner can add to two 5 microwatt signals to produce a 10 microwatt signal (ignoring losses). On the other hand, you state that a splitter being used as a combiner will attenuate each leg by 3 dB, therefore applying two 5 microwatt signals will produce 2.5 + 2.5 = 5 microwatts.



Ehhhhhhh...no. Ignoring losses then 5 in + 5 in = 10 out. Not ignoring losses then 5 in + 5 in = 3 out. This really isn't complicated as you are trolling, err, trying to make it.


And you ask me why I can't understand.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/17541457
> 
> 
> A combiner is a splitter.



Okay, that's a starting point. Then why is the loss entirely different in one direction versus the other? How can a passive network know about direction?


As a splitter, the loss is 3.5 dB per leg. We put in 10 microwatts on the input and we get 4.47 microwatts on each output. The _total_ loss is 10 - 4.47 - 4.47 = 1.06 microwatts or 0.5 dB.


As a combiner, the total loss is the same. We put in 5 microwatts on each input and get 5 + 5 = 10 microwatts minus 0.5 dB or 8.91 microwatts on the output.


Ron


----------



## L David Matheny




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/17540516
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incredible. I hope you aren't really a dr and just play one on the internet. I know exactly what a splitter is and what it does. I've only used them professionally for 27+ years. Nobody here that I am aware of, including myself, has ever denied the fact that combining 5+5=10 on the output. The whole point is that a *PASSIVE* combiner cannot add or raise the signal. The ONLY way to raise the signal is to raise the input level. I'll say it again, it is *IMPOSSIBLE* for a *PASSIVE* combiner to raise/add signal level on its own. The key word is *PASSIVE*. Now if you are talking about an ACTIVE combiner (and you are not) that would be a different story.



I think I'm with dr1394 on this one, FWIW (maybe not much; I'm no expert).


Have you ever heard of a transformer? They're used to step voltage up as well as down, and they're passive. They do have some inherent losses going either way, of course, but that may only be a few percent. They work fine for the power company, among others.


----------



## KenL




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/17541085
> 
> 
> ...then this will really blow your minds: The -3.5dB loss is PER LEG and not the total loss.



That is simply not true in theory (or in practice) when using a typical hybrid splitter/combiner in the fine art of ganging or stacking phased antennas.










Think about it... if you are only getting half of each whole antenna (plus some loss) then the stacked duo would have less gain than the single whole, and there would generally be little benefit to doing it phased beyond some nulls.


You and Colm are really both half correct. In your configuration you are losing up to -3.5 per leg not -.5 per Colm. But when both legs are in phase and equal then it instead approaches +2.5 after the -.5 loss and this is why the hybrid splitter/combiner can be so effective for such application.



Now they sure aren't all created equal and I'd still rather have a stripline to play around with, but with careful attention to phasing the simple 49 cent hybrid T works wonders with both improved gain and desired nulls used with a perfectly balanced gang of two.



Read this section about Superposition analysis to get better idea how the circuit behaves in these two different situations.



> Quote:
> *...The doubling of the output power is equivalent to a 3 dB increase in the signal. If the combiner is 90% efficient then a 2.5 dB gain is seen. Note the dichotomy:
> 
> 
> · If the antennas point in different directions, there is a 3.5 dB loss at the combiner.
> 
> 
> · If the antennas point in the same direction, there is a 2.5 dB gain at the combiner.
> 
> 
> This is a 6 dB swing. 3 dB of this is just the adding of the second antenna, but the other 3 dB is from the combiner becoming a much more effective device.*



Obviously in such case the loss is not -3.5dB PER LEG and field experience backs up the good dr's theory here.


If you don't still don't believe it try both configurations (matched same direction, unmatched different directions) for yourself.


----------



## arxaw




----------



## superorb

Can't we all just get along?


----------



## SWHouston

superorb,


HA !







, "Get Along", you GOT to be kidding !










Agreed, you can get along with a Modified Range (Ch7-69) Antenna.


Additionally, from what I see on your Chart, and knowing that at times one really likes to "look around", you'd be limiting your Channel selection a lot, by getting a relatively Directional Antenna.


If you want to pick up that WRPX Ion AND your Majors without Rotating, you might think about one of the Omni's.


Just to get you started in that direction, take a look at...
Winegard MS2002 


Then, at the bottom of the above Page/Link, there are several other applicable Antennas listed. Check um out !


Have a good Day !









S.W.


----------



## superorb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SWHouston* /forum/post/17542950
> 
> 
> superorb,
> 
> 
> HA !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , "Get Along", you GOT to be kidding !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, you can get along with a Modified Range (Ch7-69) Antenna.
> 
> 
> Additionally, from what I see on your Chart, and knowing that at times one really likes to "look around", you'd be limiting your Channel selection a lot, by getting a relatively Directional Antenna.
> 
> 
> If you want to pick up that WRPX Ion AND your Majors without Rotating, you might think about one of the Omni's.
> 
> 
> Just to get you started in that direction, take a look at...
> Winegard MS2002
> 
> 
> Then, at the bottom of the above Page/Link, there are several other applicable Antennas listed. Check um out !
> 
> 
> Have a good Day !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.W.



I'm not against an Omni, but I am against the $50 price. I'd like to limit it to $25 shipped if possible.


----------



## SWHouston

superorb,


Ok then, this is close, look at the...
Winegard HD7000R 


You can just aim it at your Magnetic 124°, and enjoy !


Have a good Day !









S.W.


----------



## superorb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SWHouston* /forum/post/17543685
> 
> 
> superorb,
> 
> 
> Ok then, this is close, look at the...
> Winegard HD7000R
> 
> 
> You can just aim it at your Magnetic 124°, and enjoy !
> 
> 
> Have a good Day !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.W.



Anything that's $25 after shipping? I found this 2-Bay Bowtie Antenna for $24.xx shipped.


----------



## IDRick

Superorb,


Follow Arxaw's suggestion. He knows his stuff. His recommendation should work well for you and is priced at half your $25 limit.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *superorb* /forum/post/17543741
> 
> 
> 2-Bay Bowtie Antenna for $24.xx shipped.



That antenna is not designed to receive VHF. WTVD is on VHF. If you try to go any cheaper than the suggestions, be prepared to have reception issues with WTVD.


The Antennacraft HBU-22 is another cheap antenna that will receive WTVD.


----------



## superorb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IDRick* /forum/post/17543817
> 
> 
> Superorb,
> 
> 
> Follow Arxaw's suggestion. He knows his stuff. His recommendation should work well for you and is priced at half your $25 limit.



Alright, I'll give the RS antenna a shot.


----------



## SWHouston




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *superorb* /forum/post/17538342
> 
> 
> I'd like to build an antenna for my attic to receive OTA signals. According to AntennaWeb I need a "Yellow" type antenna. Is the basic 4-bay DIY antenna the best for my purposes? The 1st post hasn't been updated in years so I figured I'd post.



Excuse me, but, the...
Radio Shack T#749 

is an Indoor (top of TV) Antenna, no wonder it's cheaper.

Nothing that I recall was ever said about an Indoor Antenna.

I don't know if this little guy has enough punch to get through the shingles, apparently you've changed your mind,

and as Arxaw suggests, use it on top of the TV ?


Have a good Day !









S.W.


----------



## superorb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SWHouston* /forum/post/17550212
> 
> 
> Excuse me, but, the...
> Radio Shack T#749
> 
> is an Indoor (top of TV) Antenna, no wonder it's cheaper.
> 
> Nothing that I recall was ever said about an Indoor Antenna.
> 
> I don't know if this little guy has enough punch to get through the shingles !
> 
> 
> Have a good Day !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.W.



Please look at post #1681.


----------



## arxaw

superorb,

thanks.


Using the suggested antenna in the attic may help isolate it from all the RF noise from your TV and other nearby electronics in your home that can muck with VHF reception. In the past, when I lived fairly close to TV towers, using a similar "indoor" antenna in the attic worked very well for nearby VHF & UHF stations. I believe this particular antenna is somewhat better than the one I used, mainly because the UHF loop is larger than most others.


If it doesn't work, it's cheap and it's returnable.


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *superorb* /forum/post/17543741
> 
> 
> Anything that's $25 after shipping? I found this 2-Bay Bowtie Antenna for $24.xx shipped.



And I can tell by the gains they list that it's not optimized for the new UHF channels since it gives the best gain at CH 69. I can make the same antenna actually optimized for 14-51 for about 1/3 of that or less.


----------



## arxaw

But it's UHF-only.


----------



## superorb




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/17553073
> 
> 
> superorb,
> 
> thanks.
> 
> 
> Using the suggested antenna in the attic may help isolate it from all the RF noise from your TV and other nearby electronics in your home that can muck with VHF reception. In the past, when I lived fairly close to TV towers, using a similar "indoor" antenna in the attic worked very well for nearby VHF & UHF stations. I believe this particular antenna is somewhat better than the one I used, mainly because the UHF loop is larger than most others.
> 
> 
> If it doesn't work, it's cheap and it's returnable.



I picked up the RS antenna and I'll give it a shot tonight.


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BCF68* /forum/post/17553180
> 
> 
> And I can tell by the gains they list that it's not optimized for the new UHF channels since it gives the best gain at CH 69. I can make the same antenna actually optimized for 14-51 for about 1/3 of that or less.



What specs do you recommend for a 2-bay? I've built a mclapp 2 bay with 10 inch whiskers, 9.5 inch bay spacing, and 1-3/4 inch phase line spacing. It works very well on UHF, about 3 dB less than a mclapp 4-bay. Unfortunately, high VHF really takes a hit on the two bay, especially if you add a reflector. Have you seen these same issues?


Thanks!


Rick


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010;17540516The ONLY way to raise the signal is to raise the input level. I'll say it again, it is [B* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> IMPOSSIBLE[/b] for a *PASSIVE* combiner to raise/add signal level on its own. The key word is *PASSIVE*. Now if you are talking about an ACTIVE combiner (and you are not) that would be a different story.



If you combine two antennas properly then you get more signal than that of one antenna. How close you get to the theoretical doubling of the signal (3db) depends on how well it is done.


I'm not sure of exactly what you are trying to argue at this point.


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IDRick* /forum/post/17553439
> 
> 
> What specs do you recommend for a 2-bay? I've built a mclapp 2 bay with 10 inch whiskers, 9.5 inch bay spacing, and 1-3/4 inch phase line spacing. It works very well on UHF, about 3 dB less than a mclapp 4-bay. Unfortunately, high VHF really takes a hit on the two bay, especially if you add a reflector. Have you seen these same issues?
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> Rick



Well to be honest based on my own experience I think if you want high VHF you need to go with the 4 bay. I'm not sure there is a way around that short of making a 2 bay specifically for hi-VHF then you're talking about 28 inch whiskers. Of course I have no idea what the phase-line separation for that would be. Might be fun just to try.


I will say that when using a non solid reflector on either a 2 bay or 4 bay I get better signal strength from hi-VHF when the antenna facing backwards from the station. I am not sure why.


----------



## IDRick

thanks BCF68! I've never tried reception from the back side. I'll give it a try!










Best,


Rick


----------



## cpcat

Again, the take home about using common splitters as combiners in antenna stacking is that they simply don't PHASE very well. That's what stripline combiners are for. Using a common splitter can still work though when doing a dual stack---and provide increased gain as well as narrower beamwidth in the plane of stacking.


To illustrate the difference in the phasing properties b/w common splitters and a stripline, just try using a 4-way common splitter to do a quad. It just doesn't work at all, again not because of signal loss per se, but rather the 4-way just won't phase the signals. Use 3 two-ways though and it will work, although not nearly as good as a stripline will.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BCF68* /forum/post/17553598
> 
> 
> I'm not sure there is a way around that short of making a 2 bay specifically for hi-VHF then you're talking about 28 inch whiskers. Of course I have no idea what the phase-line separation for that would be. Might be fun just to try.



Theoretically, the phasing lines should be the same diameter and separation as the UHF version.


----------



## superorb

Cheap RS antenna is hooked up and I can tune CBS, NBC, ABC and FOX with a little distortion on each depending on the direction the antenna is pointed. I've got it between the TV nd a speaker, and it's sitting on top of a subwoofer. Signal was worse behind the TV. I think I'll buy a coax coupler and extent the cable into the attic to see if signal improves.


I must say, though, that OTA broadcasts in HD look stunning. Thanks for all the help guys.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *superorb* /forum/post/17557008
> 
> 
> Cheap RS antenna is hooked up and I can tune CBS, NBC, ABC and FOX with a little distortion on each depending on the direction the antenna is pointed. I've got it between the TV nd a speaker, and it's sitting on top of a subwoofer. Signal was worse behind the TV. I think I'll buy a coax coupler and extent the cable into the attic to see if signal improves.



As to be expected. All the electronics in the room give off a lot of noise that affects indoor reception. If the antenna is in an interior room of your house, away from exterior walls, the attic trial should give you better results.


Use as short a length as possible of RG6 coaxial cable and a " barrel splice " to join it to the antenna. Do not use a splitter.


Make sure the dipole rods are not extended longer than they should be for your VHF channel (~14" each). Point the antenna like this:









In your case, the red arrows are NW and SE

The rods should be in a much wider "V" than shown in this picture.


----------



## superorb

^^ Aiming it NW/SE doesn't seem to work as well as if I aimed it N/S for some reason. I don't mind getting up and rotating it based on the show I'm watching though. When I get around to buying a taller ladder I'll move it to the attic.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *superorb* /forum/post/17557630
> 
> 
> ^^ Aiming it NW/SE doesn't seem to work as well as if I aimed it N/S for some reason. I don't mind getting up and rotating it based on the show I'm watching though. When I get around to buying a taller ladder I'll move it to the attic.



Indoors, you may be using reflected signals, requiring aiming the antenna in a direction other than toward the towers. This type of antenna is not as directional as some others. So often times, *where* you have it sitting may be more important than what direction it's facing.


Until you get a ladder for the attic, you can experiment by moving the antenna around the room or to an adjacent room, using a longer piece of coax. Try different heights - from up near the ceiling to down on the floor. An exterior wall and near a window is usually best. With a little patience, you may find an interference-free hot spot for all your channels, so you won't have to keep mucking with the antenna.


----------



## RickCain2320

I'm using a trusty old Radio Shack VU-190 in my attic, and due to the preponderance of religious channels and very few secular ones in my area, I would appreciate any tips on getting reception from some of the more remote stations in my area. Pointing the antenna to the close ones is easy since they're clustered in one particular area, but the ones south of me are a bit spread out.


TV Fool Plot attached...




I have a CM4221 laying around unused too. I haven't compared it to the VU-190 yet.


Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Pointing the antenna to the close ones is easy since they're clustered in one particular area, but the ones south of me are a bit spread out.



You mean those 2 edge, negative NM ones ? You really dont have much (or any) of a chance getting them consistantly with an attic location.


If it wasnt for your channel 7 and 11 stations, the CM4221 would do you fine in a much smaller package than the VU-190. Since those two stations are fairly strong, you may be able to get them with the CM4221 if you electrically attach a couple of 32 - 40 inch rods to the CM4221's reflector. Then you could reclaim a lot of your attic space, heh.


----------



## ctdish

The signals to the South of you are very weak. If you aim the antenna at them now can you get anything from? This level probably means that with any set up they will not be reliable. You will need a properly aimed outside antenna with a preamp for best results. The preamp requirement along with the very strong signals adds a great deal more difficulty to your problem.

John


----------



## RickCain2320




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17565684
> 
> 
> You mean those 2 edge, negative NM ones ? You really dont have much (or any) of a chance getting them consistantly with an attic location.
> 
> 
> If it wasnt for your channel 7 and 11 stations, the CM4221 would do you fine in a much smaller package than the VU-190. Since those two stations are fairly strong, you may be able to get them with the CM4221 if you electrically attach a couple of 32 - 40 inch rods to the CM4221's reflector. Then you could reclaim a lot of your attic space, heh.




Well I'm not too concerned about Channel 11 but I definitely don't want to lose ABC. I'll swing my antenna south and see what it picks up, if anything. I'm on a hill which does help my reception. I'm in a neighborhood with a property owners association so a roof antenna would result in a huge fight from them.


Thanks for the advice so far, I will post an update on my findings.


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RickCain2320* /forum/post/17566268
> 
> 
> I'm in a neighborhood with a property owners association so a roof antenna would result in a huge fight from them.



It probably won't be too huge of a fight when you tell them it's against the law to keep you from putting an antenna on the roof. They don't have the right to stop you.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Well I'm not too concerned about Channel 11 but I definitely don't want to lose ABC.



Well that even simplifies matters. At a 53.4 NM, the CM4221 may even pick up your channels 7 and 13 as is. With a couple of 36" rods (or door/carpet threasholds or other 36" pieces of metal) horizontally strapped to its reflector, its pretty well guaranteed it will.


----------



## ctdish

He also has a strong channel 13.


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17566605
> 
> 
> Well that even simplifies matters. At a 53.4 NM, the CM4221 may even pick up your channel 7 as is. With a couple of 36" rods (or door/carpet threasholds or other 36" pieces of metal) horizontally strapped to its reflector, its pretty well guaranteed it will.



Interesting comments 300ohm! I want to try this with an mclapp 2-bay (10x9.5) that has a 20" high x 24" wide reflector. It performs very well as a UHF antenna (3 dB less than a 4-bay with reflector). However, high vhf reception on the two bay really takes a hit with a narrow reflector. With that as a preface, where would you mount the rods: 1 each centered behind the elements or some other arrangement?


----------



## a8vdeluxe

So when is someone going to review the "best indoor antenna every invented by mankind" ?


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=17563410 



Come on people, what are we waiting for?



link should work now!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> 1 each centered behind the elements or some other arrangement?



Yeah. But Im not sure how well the long rods work on all 2 bays. I tried it with a model of the DB2 and the results werent that good. With 4 bays, no problem.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> So when is someone going to review the "best indoor antenna every invented by mankind" ?



Escape Velocity has them reviewed right here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779


----------



## rabbit73

a8vdeluxe:

We are waiting for a link that works. Try again.


----------



## a8vdeluxe

So when is someone going to review "the best indoor antenna every invented by mankind" ?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=17563410 



link should work now!


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17567523
> 
> 
> Yeah. But Im not sure how well the long rods work on all 2 bays. I tried it with a model of the DB2 and the results werent that good. With 4 bays, no problem.



Thanks 300, just looking for your best guess, recognizing that it is guess.


Best,


Rick


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *a8vdeluxe* /forum/post/17567590
> 
> 
> So when is someone going to review "the best indoor antenna every invented by mankind" ?
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=17563410
> 
> 
> 
> link should work now!



No antenna at your link....


----------



## systems2000

 RickCain2320 ,


How many of those analog stations do you want to get? Which stations in particular are you trying to acquire?


Your TVFool data is showing an antenna elevation (AGL - Above Ground Level) of 10'. Is this correct?


With an attic antenna, you're probably not going to get any of the "Tropo" stations.


"2Edge" reception is best accomplished with an exterior antenna and a pre-amplifier that is mounted at least 10' above your roof line.


At 350° (±2°) True, you are getting all the networks there are and most all of your LOS's down to -65.7dBm.


----------



## systems2000

I've discovered another interesting aspect of my CM3020 setup. When I rotated the antenna (55' AGL) this evening, it affected my portable radio (which was in my office 20' NE of the tower).


This supports the issue I have experienced with the reception off of my other antenna. Is this normal? I was under the impression, that beyond one wavelength, I would not have any interference issues. How do I prevent this from happening to the cut channel antennas I need to install?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> it affected my portable radio (which was in my office 20' NE of the tower).



Which band, AM or FM or SW/other band ? Have you tried moving the portable radio ?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RickCain2320* /forum/post/17564927
> 
> 
> I'm using a trusty old Radio Shack VU-190 in my attic, and due to the preponderance of religious channels and very few secular ones in my area, I would appreciate any tips on getting reception from some of the more remote stations in my area. Pointing the antenna to the close ones is easy since they're clustered in one particular area, but the ones south of me are a bit spread out.
> 
> 
> TV Fool Plot attached...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a CM4221 laying around unused too. I haven't compared it to the VU-190 yet.
> 
> 
> Any help would be appreciated.



KXXI on channel 12 is the only one I'd expect to work. Try a Y10-7-13 or YA1713 with a channel 12 Jointenna. Expect to install it outdoors.


----------



## deathnote

I'm trying to figure out an antenna to buy for HD.


Here's my tv fool results: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...bc27b2347973ad 


The only channel I care about is ABC channel 9 because it comes in choppy on my direct tv.


Someone on another forum recommended: http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PHDTV1...2980096&sr=8-1 


Any advice?


----------



## ctdish

Channel 9 is a VHF channel and the Silver Sensor is designed for UHF. An antenna that looks like old fashioned rabbit ears is best for VHF. Since 9 is very strong the rabbit ears will most likely get a strong enough signal but indoor multipath is always a possible and can ruin reception.

John


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17570256
> 
> 
> Which band, AM or FM or SW/other band ? Have you tried moving the portable radio ?



FM.


I move it all the time. I was just surprised that the CM3020 was affecting another antenna at that distance and now concerned that the antennas I'm looking to mount on the tower are going to be affected.


----------



## deathnote




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/17571727
> 
> 
> Channel 9 is a VHF channel and the Silver Sensor is designed for UHF. An antenna that looks like old fashioned rabbit ears is best for VHF. Since 9 is very strong the rabbit ears will most likely get a strong enough signal but indoor multipath is always a possible and can ruin reception.
> 
> John



So, this should work? http://www.bestbuy.com/site/RCA+-+In...&skuId=8280834 


I want to get something cheap from a local store to try out.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> FM.
> 
> 
> I move it all the time.



Hmm, is the FM station pointed in the same direction as the CM3020 is ? If so, since the CM3020 is a UHF/VHF/FM antenna, you could tap into it for additional gain.


----------



## ctdish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deathnote* /forum/post/17571864
> 
> 
> So, this should work? http://www.bestbuy.com/site/RCA+-+In...&skuId=8280834
> 
> 
> I want to get something cheap from a local store to try out.



For an indoor channel 9 antenna it is probably as good as any small antenna. Your signals are probably strong enough for it to work on UHF channels. For $9 it is not a big investment. The silver sensor would reduce multipath on UHF and and get more signal.

John


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17573429
> 
> 
> Hmm, is the FM station pointed in the same direction as the CM3020 is ? If so, since the CM3020 is a UHF/VHF/FM antenna, you could tap into it for additional gain.



I'm not looking to tap into the CM3020, I'm trying to discover why it is throwing out such a large/wide interference fiield. I don't need more issues with my reception and I definitely don't need the CM3020 limiting the reception capabilities of my cut channel antennas.


I already have a dedicated FM antenna (on the far side of the house), which feeds the audio tuner.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/17573639
> 
> 
> For an indoor channel 9 antenna it is probably as good as any small antenna. Your signals are probably strong enough for it to work on UHF channels. For $9 it is not a big investment. The silver sensor would reduce multipath on UHF and and get more signal.
> 
> John



Agreed. I don't like indoor antennas, but that is the right one for VHF stations.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/17553688
> 
> 
> Again, the take home about using common splitters as combiners in antenna stacking is that they simply don't PHASE very well. That's what stripline combiners are for. Using a common splitter can still work though when doing a dual stack---and provide increased gain as well as narrower beamwidth in the plane of stacking.
> 
> 
> To illustrate the difference in the phasing properties b/w common splitters and a stripline, just try using a 4-way common splitter to do a quad. It just doesn't work at all, again not because of signal loss per se, but rather the 4-way just won't phase the signals. Use 3 two-ways though and it will work, although not nearly as good as a stripline will.



Depends on what's inside the "common splitter". I'm sure there's all kinds of junk out there.


Here's a very inexpensive non-stripline splitter/combiner with good phase unbalance.

http://minicircuits.com/pdfs/TCP-2-10-75.pdf 


Of course, it needs to be put in case with connectors.


Ron


----------



## cpcat

If I were actively fiddling with it at this point I might try it, but I'll probably just leave it as it is for now.


----------



## Splicer010

Wow. Thats a setup you've got there. I am surprised that as nice as the setup is, that you wired it so haphazardly.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

I would have just gotten the chainsaw....


----------



## rabbit73

Or raised it a little higher.....


----------



## cpcat

Tough crowd.


----------



## rabbit73

But it IS an impressive antenna array!


----------



## Larry Kenney

Very impressive array, cpcat! How much gain do you get out of that top arrangement?


Larry

SF


----------



## cpcat

Here's the gain graph for the Triax Unix 100A. It's band specific for uhf 14-38 (UK channels 21-40). The graph on the left is the 100A:
http://alpha.future.ee/triax_unix.png 



Theoretically, the gain would approach +6db over that of a single antenna. I'd estimate based on the graph somewhere around 19dbi at channel 14 maybe up to around 22dbi at channel 36. It starts to drop off steeply above channel 40. The horizontal beamwidth is very narrow as you'd expect at around 1/4 that of a single antenna .


----------



## Don F.

I am getting the bug to combine two xg91s to try to improve my signals from Atlanta some 80 air miles way. Presently I use a single xg91 for uhf and plan to install another fairly soon, but need some help on a good combiner. I am removing my ya1713, as I have not been able to receive a usuable signal from WXIA dt 10, and could use the antenna else where.

After combing the the uhf s they would connect to a cm7777, which has been in use with my current setup... I looked at Solid Signal, but the only thing I saw had a 3.5 db reduction in gain..

Thanks for any help...


----------



## scottmo2020

I am having major problems receiving VHF OTA, which is not a big surprise considering the many issues already brought up with digital TV on VHF. Here is a quick run down and I am hoping for any ideas!


My TV Fool:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...bc273f8529f405 


I have a Channelmaster 4228 (old version) with a Wineguard AP-8275 preamp to receive KOLR on VHF 10 (UHF is great!) I get about 80-84% signal strength, but I have so much interference from something it is not watchable. I am also trying for KRCG VHF 12 with a Wineguard YA 1713 and Wineguard 3700 VHF only preamp (not at the same time). KRCG comes in 90%+ but is also unwatchable with interference. Even KOMU comes in at 80%. Most of the time the signal is jumping all over the place though, and I think I am getting outside electrical interference.


I connected my system direct to a TV testing in the garage, and turned all of my circuit breakers off except for the one in the garage and the interference was still there. Also, when it rains outside my interference seems to go away and all VHF stations are pretty solid. It leads me to think it is something electrical outside. I am going to see the power company and see if they will help me.


I also have a 10kw FM station 1.1 miles from me and used the FM traps on the preamps, and separate FM traps. I have had this setup for over a year though and have not had trouble except for the past few weeks.


I guess the short version of my question, is there something that can filter out that kind of noise? I already have the ground block on my coax and such. I am using two different antennas, preamps, feedlines, and pointed nearly 180 degrees different, and the antennas are in two different locations about 30 feet apart. I might just be out of luck but I'm open to any ideas.


Thank you!


----------



## rabbit73

scottmo2020:

Your tvfool link doesn't work; it only takes us to the start page rather than your report page. Please try again and use the link in bold type near the top of the report page.


> Quote:
> I connected my system direct to a TV testing in the garage, and turned all of my circuit breakers off except for the one in the garage and the interference was still there. Also, when it rains outside my interference seems to go away and all VHF stations are pretty solid. It leads me to think it is something electrical outside. I am going to see the power company and see if they will help me.



It sounds like power line noise.


> Quote:
> I guess the short version of my question, is there something that can filter out that kind of noise?



Since the noise exists on the channel, anything that filters out the noise will also filter out the signal. It must be eliminated at the source.


> Quote:
> Is there any way I can hunt down the source of the interference? I don't know if it is in my house, but I don't think so. No new gadgets, appliances, fluorescent lights, any of that. I mentioned before it seems to get better when it rains. Maybe the electric company could help? I'm afraid I am pretty much out of luck for CBS OTA.



The ideal tool would be a spectrum analyzer, but they are expensive and not many people have one. It would allow you to see the signals and the noise at your problem frequencies. You can track down the noise using a portable receiver that can be set for AM and will tune the VHF band. A handheld directional antenna could be connected to the receiver and aimed at the suspected areas. This is called DF (direction finding). Do you know any hams that could help you?


If the interference is coming from the power lines, the power company is responsible for fixing it because you are probably not the only person who is being affected. The FCC says that they cannot charge you for fixing it. It is also a safety and reliability issue so the power company should want to fix it in the first place. It's usually caused by bad "hardware." Don't try to fix it yourself or go banging on power poles if you think you have located the power line source of the noise.


----------



## scottmo2020




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/17624576
> 
> 
> scottmo2020:
> 
> Your tvfool link doesn't work; it only takes us to the start page rather than your report page. Please try again and use the link in bold type near the top of the report page.



Oops! My browser didn't cut/paste right. I think it's fixed.

Scott


----------



## rabbit73

That's better, Scott. If you had used exact address (which doesn't show in the result) or coordinates (the last digits are deleted) the report would have been more accurate, but that might not matter too much if you are out in the country.


At -54.1 dBm KOLR is quite strong, so your interference must be severe. KRCG, at -73.2 dBm and 1edge is a lot weaker.


I assume that your antennas are outside, rather than in an attic.


I used your zip code to generate an fmfool report, which is in the attachment. KCVO *is* very strong. Lately, some people have been troubled by the second harmonic (2x the FM frequency) of FM signals which fall in the VHF-hi band that an FM filter doesn't always eliminate.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don F.* /forum/post/17618178
> 
> 
> I am getting the bug to combine two xg91s to try to improve my signals from Atlanta some 80 air miles way. Presently I use a single xg91 for uhf and plan to install another fairly soon, but need some help on a good combiner. I am removing my ya1713, as I have not been able to receive a usuable signal from WXIA dt 10, and could use the antenna else where.
> 
> After combing the the uhf s they would connect to a cm7777, which has been in use with my current setup... I looked at Solid Signal, but the only thing I saw had a 3.5 db reduction in gain..
> 
> Thanks for any help...



Here's some actual measurements:

http://www.antennahacks.com/CombinerComparison.htm 


Ron


----------



## scottmo2020




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/17624791
> 
> 
> That's better, Scott. If you had used exact address (which doesn't show in the result) or coordinates (the last digits are deleted) the report would have been more accurate, but that might not matter too much if you are out in the country.
> 
> 
> At -54.1 dBm KOLR is quite strong, so your interference must be severe. KRCG, at -73.2 dBm and 1edge is a lot weaker.
> 
> 
> I assume that your antennas are outside, rather than in an attic.
> 
> 
> I used your zip code to generate an fmfool report, which is in the attachment. KCVO *is* very strong. Lately, some people have been troubled by the second harmonic (2x the FM frequency) of FM signals which fall in the VHF-hi band that an FM filter doesn't always eliminate.




Hi,

Thanks a lot for your help. I updated my TVFool using my coordinates from my GPS. The results seem strange because KYTV I can receive around 80%, KSFX is 92% and KSPR is around 90%, but the report shows they should be pretty weak.


I am down in a hole somewhat, about 100 feet below my surroundings to the southwest where my Springfield MO stations are. GPS shows me at 780 feet, and the antenna is on a 5 foot pole on the 2nd story of my house outside.


That radio station is very strong, because I hear it bleed on my cheaper FM boombox and kids portable radios. But that station has been around awhile and I have just started having problems in the last few weeks.


I'm going to call the power company and see what they can do. I am a amateur radio operator and know a couple people who might be able to help!


Thanks again

Scott


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scottmo2020* /forum/post/17624241
> 
> 
> It leads me to think it is something electrical outside. I am going to see the power company and see if they will help me.



You can verify electrical interference with your AM car radio. Start when it's light out. (to avoid skip) Tune to an unused spot on the low end of the dial. (530-600) Drive near your house. If you hear a loud buzzing, you have proven power line noise.


----------



## kevm14

I'm back.


After living with the WG HDP-269 preamp for a while I am mostly doing well, but still having troubling variations in reception quality on some stations, with one station still being a big nuisance to receive well.


As a refresher, here is my TV Fool. The station that is being the biggest pain is WSBK RF 39. I regularly get 2 channels below this one in predicted signal strength and sometimes 3.


I was thinking about things that could be hurting me after reading Antenna Basics . I will try the AM radio trick for power line interference. I also can't shake the idea that strong FM stations could degrade the performance of the pre-amp. I even briefly considered stacking another antenna (I have a WG 7697P).


The other thing I was refreshed on after reading the Antenna Basics page, is the idea that I want to compensate for my cable loss plus another 10dB, I guess to minimize the receiver's AGC compensation. With my WG HDP-269, which specializes in high dynamic range but has less gain than the stalwart CM 7777, I am wondering if I should try another pre-amp. I have about 70 feet of quad shield RG-6, so I estimate my average loss to be around 3dB. The HDP-269 is 12 dB with 3dB noise, so I am right around 9dB after cable losses. Would the CM 7777 work better for me?


----------



## lovebohn

What is the AM radio trick?



Sorry, found it two replies above.


----------



## Don F.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/17624861
> 
> 
> Here's some actual measurements:
> 
> http://www.antennahacks.com/CombinerComparison.htm
> 
> 
> Ron



Looks like it would be more work than I am looking for, with no gurantees for improvement, Thanks for the info...


----------



## rabbit73

scottmo2020:


Tower Guy is correct, the AM broadcast band can be used if the interference is strong. If you use a hand-held portable radio its built-in ferite loopstick antenna is bidirectional.


73,

rabbit


lovebohn:



> Quote:
> What is the AM radio trick?



An AM radio must be used to track down broadband interference because FM is resistant to noise.


----------



## scottmo2020




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17626137
> 
> 
> You can verify electrical interference with your AM car radio. Start when it's light out. (to avoid skip) Tune to an unused spot on the low end of the dial. (530-600) Drive near your house. If you hear a loud buzzing, you have proven power line noise.



This morning around 7:45am I left the house for work and tuned to 530 AM. I heard a loud buzzing sound at least a half a block down the street and then it went away. I heard some alternator noise but the loud buzz was gone.


I put a call into my electric company and spoke with a guy who seemed to understand what I was saying! I told him about my AM and VHF woes and explained I killed the power to my house and the interference was still there. Here's to hoping they find something!


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/17628771
> 
> 
> An AM radio must be used to track down broadband interference because FM is resistant to noise.



That's correct, but using a broadcast band (530 to 1700 kHz) radio is too "blunt" of a tool. The noise gets conducted down the wires, and it's too difficult to pinpoint the source. The way the professionals (the guys at the power companies) track down interference is with a VHF/UHF radio that has an AM mode. The trick is to keep going up in frequency so that the individual power pole can be identified.


I use an Icom IC-T8A handheld that receives the 118 to 136 MHz aircraft band (which still uses AM modulation). By just walking around the neighborhood, I can usually find the offending pole (and specify the pole number when making a complaint).


Ron


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scottmo2020* /forum/post/17628858
> 
> 
> This morning around 7:45am I left the house for work and tuned to 530 AM. I heard a loud buzzing sound at least a half a block down the street and then it went away. I heard some alternator noise but the loud buzz was gone.
> 
> 
> I put a call into my electric company and spoke with a guy who seemed to understand what I was saying! I told him about my AM and VHF woes and explained I killed the power to my house and the interference was still there. Here's to hoping they find something!



I hope you have better luck than some other hams.


ARRL has an article about a long-term problem with Duquesne Light Company in PA:

FCC to Utilities: Don't Look to Hams to Pay for Your Testing

http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2009/08/27/11043/?nc=1


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kevm14* /forum/post/17628357
> 
> 
> I'm back.
> 
> 
> After living with the WG HDP-269 preamp for a while I am mostly doing well, but still having troubling variations in reception quality on some stations, with one station still being a big nuisance to receive well.



If you are only running one tuner off the pre-amp, adding more gain will not help with only 70 feet of cable. Multiple splits would benefit most with the addition of a quality distribution amp in conjunction with the pre-amp. If you have already played around with height & aiming tweaks, the only solution may be a higher gain UHF only antenna to augment the 7697.


I also seriously doubt that FM or electrical interference are affecting your nuisance UHF channel. I feel you simply need more antenna gain by finding a better sweet spot or a "_separate_" UHF antenna.


----------



## kevm14




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/17630166
> 
> 
> If you are only running one tuner off the pre-amp, adding more gain will not help with only 70 feet of cable. Multiple splits would benefit most with the addition of a quality distribution amp in conjunction with the pre-amp. If you have already played around with height & aiming tweaks, the only solution may be a higher gain UHF only antenna to augment the 7697.
> 
> 
> I also seriously doubt that FM or electrical interference are affecting your nuisance UHF channel. I feel you simply need more antenna gain by finding a better sweet spot or a "_separate_" UHF antenna.



You are probably right. It is frustrating though, because some recordings from this channel are almost perfect but some are completely unwatchable, with 5-15 seconds of blackness between bits of pixels.


I raised it another 5 feet within the past few weeks, making it 20 feet off the ground. I still have a tree problem, of course, but short of spending another $700 to remove a big white pine, there is nothing else I can do on my property. I've limbed it to probably 30+ feet.


The current aim is at about 42° IIRC, just to the right of the big white pine trunk, which means there could be some sort of multi-path problem. Perhaps the ideal aim actually changes and each time I have a problem, there is some new ideal aim for that particular condition.


The WG 7698P has maybe 1dB of additional gain on RF 39. I kind of wish I just went straight for that monster so I wouldn't wonder. But I think my mast would be borderline inadequate for that guy. Like you say, maybe adding a high gain UHF antenna and combining would be best for me. As good as the 7698P is (12-14dB @ UHF), the UHF-only antennas do an even better job at UHF, I think.


EDIT: One easy thing I could try is lowering the antenna on the mast. I haven't tried that since getting the pre-amp.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> One easy thing I could try is lowering the antenna on the mast. I haven't tried that since getting the pre-amp.



Yep, sometimes even as little as 6" up or down can make a significant difference on uhf channels. Other relatively easy ideas are tilting the antenna a bit, and moving the whole antenna and mast to different mounting locations.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17631297
> 
> 
> Other relatively easy ideas are moving the whole antenna and mast to different mounting locations.



As I noted in my post awhile back on kevm14's system.


----------



## kevm14

Moving the whole thing is more work than I care to take on currently. I'd have to poke new holes in my siding and sheathing, for starters. I already tried raising it 5 feet, so now I'll experiment with heights in between. Not sure how to tilt it, though that seems like a good idea, too.


----------



## scottmo2020




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/17629943
> 
> 
> I hope you have better luck than some other hams.
> 
> 
> ARRL has an article about a long-term problem with Duquesne Light Company in PA:
> 
> FCC to Utilities: Don't Look to Hams to Pay for Your Testing
> 
> http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2009/08/27/11043/?nc=1



The electric company came out today and didn't find anything creating noise. The guy was very helpful but couldn't find any power line or transformer noise. Oh well. I guess my VHF viewing days are over. It is too bad the FCC let themselves get run over by broadcasters looking to save a few bucks on their electric bill and allowed VHF digital TV in the first place. It just doesn't work.










Who cares about a few hundred hillbillies like me that live on the fringe anyway.


----------



## un43

I would like some comments on my proposed setup. I live 50 miles NE from the towers in Dallas, in a low area next to a creek. The antennas will be stacked on a mast that is about 5 feet above the tripod roof mount. Height of the top antenna will be about 25 feet from the ground. Here's what I'm planning:


UHF: Winegard HD-8800

VHF: AntennaCraft Y5-7-13

Preamp: Winegard AP-2870 with separate UHF/VHF inputs


Here are my results from tvfool: tvfool. c o m/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dbc27b824542341


Should I expect good reception 50 miles out with this setup? The channels I am mostly interested in are for the major networks (ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, FOX). You can also see that there is a local station only a few miles away in the same general direction. Should this cause any reception problems with a preamp? I am also considering the following as alternatives:


UHF: Antennas Direct 91XG

VHF: Winegard YA 1713

Preamp: Channel Master CM 7777


Thanks for any feedback.


----------



## IDRick

un43,


Here is the link to your tvfool: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...bc27b824542341 


Based on the projected signal strengths at your location, I would go with your second option (XG-91, YA1713, and CM7777). You do not have strong nearby channels so there is no problem using the CM7777 at your location. Antennas in your second option have higher gain than those in your first option. You will need the higher gain that option 2 provides.


Here is a link to a comparison between the XG-91 and the Winegard 8800. (see: http://www.antennahacks.com/AntennaComparison.htm )


HTH,


Rick


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *un43* /forum/post/17633903
> 
> 
> I would like some comments on my proposed setup.



I think that either system will work.


The first one is cheaper and smaller.


The second one will have fewer drop-outs on the weakest channels.


If you want a second CBS you could add a Y10-7-13 aimed at 336 degrees and a Jointenna for channel 12.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scottmo2020* /forum/post/17633815
> 
> 
> The electric company came out today and didn't find anything creating noise. The guy was very helpful but couldn't find any power line or transformer noise. Oh well. I guess my VHF viewing days are over. It is too bad the FCC let themselves get run over by broadcasters looking to save a few bucks on their electric bill and allowed VHF digital TV in the first place. It just doesn't work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who cares about a few hundred hillbillies like me that live on the fringe anyway.



Sorry to hear that he couldn't help you. It is the perverse nature of intermittent problems not to act up when the "expert" is checking on them.


Other sources can make noise that sound like power line noise.

I encourage you to do a little more hunting with a portable radio or a borrowed HT that dr1394 mentioned that will tune AM VHF.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> It is the perverse nature of intermittent problems not to act up when the "expert" is checking on them.



Quantum physics strikes again, heh.



> Quote:
> Not sure how to tilt it, though that seems like a good idea, too.



Most antenna ubolts will have enough play in them for about 10 degree tilts. Loosen, tilt, and retighten.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scottmo2020* /forum/post/17633815
> 
> 
> The electric company came out today and didn't find anything creating noise. The guy was very helpful but couldn't find any power line or transformer noise. Oh well.



I'd guess that you have interference that the technician couldn't find.


Some troubleshooters are better than others. Here's one guy who uses multiple tricks. http://www.enerchecksystems.com/articl15.html 


Once you're sure that there is a real problem don't hesitate to call multiple times. Be kind, but persistent.


Sometimes I find the bad pole for the power company. You may find multiple peaks as the signal travels along the wire. Once you've found the general location using 530 KHz, try again at 750-800, once more at 1100, and again at 1610. It is likely that the noise peaks will move around except for a single location which will be the bad pole.


A police scanner that can tune the airplane band is also a good suggestion.


Occasionally your ears can hear arcing.


----------



## un43




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IDRick* /forum/post/17634230
> 
> 
> Here is a link to a comparison between the XG-91 and the Winegard 8800.



Thanks for the replies. After checking the link, I'm now leaning toward either the 4228 or 91XG. I am hesitant to install a 4228 with a VHF antenna on only 5 feet of mast length, so I will probably go with the 91XG.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I'm now leaning toward either the 4228 or 91XG.



The old CM4228 is hard to get now. The new CM4228HD isnt as good as the old CM4228, unless you do some hardware hacks on it.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html 


Another comparison of the CM4228 vs the XG91
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 



> Quote:
> I am hesitant to install a 4228 with a VHF antenna on only 5 feet of mast length, so I will probably go with the 91XG.



They are both uhf antennas, and I would think the XG91 would make the mast a bit more off balance than the CM4228, although neither should be that much of a problem.


----------



## scottmo2020




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17634902
> 
> 
> I'd guess that you have interference that the technician couldn't find.
> 
> 
> Some troubleshooters are better than others. Here's one guy who uses multiple tricks. http://www.enerchecksystems.com/articl15.html



Thanks! I am going to try those suggestions and see if I can narrow it down. He didn't spend much time looking around, not too much effort but at least someone tried.


On another note, a friend of mine is considering getting an antenna. He's much closer to the Springfield market than I am. He will be going 75 feet or so to a single TV set. Here is his tvfool:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...bc27f730bf3780 


I was thinking about the AntennaCraft HBU33. The HBU44 seems overkill. I also don't think he would need a preamp off the bat unless his run is longer or has more splits.


Thanks again!


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scottmo2020* /forum/post/17636577
> 
> 
> Thanks! I am going to try those suggestions and see if I can narrow it down. He didn't spend much time looking around, not too much effort but at least someone tried.
> 
> 
> On another note, a friend of mine is considering getting an antenna. He's much closer to the Springfield market than I am. He will be going 75 feet or so to a single TV set. Here is his tvfool:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...bc27f730bf3780
> 
> 
> I was thinking about the AntennasDirect HBU33. The HBU44 seems overkill. I also don't think he would need a preamp off the bat unless his run is longer or has more splits.
> 
> 
> Thanks again!



Try *AntennaCraft*... His local Radio Shack should have it if he doesn't want to wait for shipping and he doesn't mind paying retail.


----------



## scottmo2020




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/17636849
> 
> 
> Try *AntennaCraft*... His local Radio Shack should have it if he doesn't want to wait for shipping and he doesn't mind paying retail.



Oops, thanks. I fixed my post. I was looking at 900 different antennas all at the same time!


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scottmo2020* /forum/post/17636577
> 
> 
> I was thinking about the AntennaCraft HBU33. The HBU44 seems overkill. I also don't think he would need a preamp off the bat unless his run is longer or has more splits.



If aimed at 200 degrees the smallest HBU-22 would still get plenty of signal even without a preamp.


----------



## craftech

I was wondering if someone can help me with this.


I have cable so this is for my mother who does not. She lives an hour away from me. This is her TV Fool result:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7721428244f26c 


Two years ago I put a DB2 on the roof of her two story house and ran it down into her TV room. I also put a popular Radio Shack Indoor VHF/UHF antenna on top of her TV (it has an indoor/outdoor switch).


The setup doesn't always work so well.

After the transition we found out that some of the channels went VHF which negates the roof antenna (DB2). PBS (13) went VHF and doesn't always come in (she loves that station). The RS indoor antenna is probably too low to the ground for reliable VHF reception.


I bought a CM 7777 amp, but before I crawl up there to install it ( the roof is really steep), I was wondering if that amp will be enough. After all, the DB2 is UHF only.


And does that amp _HAVE TO_ go on the roof? Can't it go indoors?


Can I maybe _add_ homemade "rabbit ears" to the DB2 for VHF,


or should I get an entirely different antenna?


Or perhaps something else I could do?


Thanks,


John


----------



## systems2000

How is reception of the UHF channels?


You also have channel 7 at a higher signal level and channel 11 at just a bit lower (from 13) and they are all at fairly strong levels. I think that if you made a simple folded di-pole antenna for channel 13 and placed it on the roof with the UHF antenna (combine that with a UVSJ), you should be able to get all three.


The CM7777 is probably way more than you really need. Also make sure your compass is accurate and that your antennas are flat faced towards 237° Magnetic.


----------



## IDRick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craftech* /forum/post/17647329
> 
> 
> I was wondering if someone can help me with this.
> 
> 
> I have cable so this is for my mother who does not. She lives an hour away from me. This is her TV Fool result:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7721428244f26c
> 
> 
> Two years ago I put a DB2 on the roof of her two story house and ran it down into her TV room. I also put a popular Radio Shack Indoor VHF/UHF antenna on top of her TV (it has an indoor/outdoor switch).
> 
> 
> The setup doesn't always work so well.
> 
> After the transition we found out that some of the channels went VHF which negates the roof antenna (DB2). PBS (13) went VHF and doesn't always come in (she loves that station). The RS indoor antenna is probably too low to the ground for reliable VHF reception.
> 
> 
> I bought a CM 7777 amp, but before I crawl up there to install it ( the roof is really steep), I was wondering if that amp will be enough. After all, the DB2 is UHF only.
> 
> 
> And does that amp _HAVE TO_ go on the roof? Can't it go indoors?
> 
> 
> Can I maybe _add_ homemade "rabbit ears" to the DB2 for VHF,
> 
> 
> or should I get an entirely different antenna?
> 
> 
> Or perhaps something else I could do?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> John




John,


The CM 7777 is a top line pre-amp but it is *not* designed to be used in locations closer than 30 miles from the towers. You have *too* many strong signals and will overload the CM 7777. Overload reduces and/or eliminates reception. An HDP269 is a better choice in pre-amp for your location.


You could try mounting the antenna up in the attic, assuming your roof is a plywood deck + asphalt shingles. You'll need to try several locations to find the hotspot. Avoid any locations where you have nearby metal ductwork, aluminum insulation or electrical wiring. Use the DB-2 for UHF and a set of rabbit ears for VHF. Join the DB-2 and rabbit ears together with a UVSJ before connecting to the HDP269. (see: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...sku=UVSJ&mc=03 ).


Alternatively, I would consider purchasing a HBU-22. This will have higher gain on UHF than the DB-2 and also receives high vhf band stations. It would work well on the roof or in the attic.


A second alternative is to build a 4-bay mclapp DIY antenna. Diagrams are here: http://www.frontiernet.net/~mclapp/A...0Antennas.html See the thread on this forum entitled "How to build a UHF antenna". mclapp posts frequently on this forum. The mclapp four bay receives high vhf and uhf channels. I build mine using pvc. My estimated cost for a mclapp with a reflector totals $30 assuming you need to buy everything. If you put it up in the attic, you can use a piece of card board covered with aluminum foil as a reflector rather than buying a 36" x 40" piece of hardware cloth.


HTH,


Rick


----------



## scottmo2020




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/17629095
> 
> 
> I use an Icom IC-T8A handheld that receives the 118 to 136 MHz aircraft band (which still uses AM modulation). By just walking around the neighborhood, I can usually find the offending pole (and specify the pole number when making a complaint).
> 
> Ron



I wanted to run one other question by the experts to get opinions. My YA1713 VHF only yagi is installed on an old DirectTV J mounting pole toward the bottom of the roof. So essentially the back of the yagi is only a few inches from the roof, on a 5 foot pole pointing toward the TV stations. Do you all think the antenna could be picking up signals bounced off the roof causing multipath or other problems? Here is a (very) crude drawing of the peak of the roof if you imagine looking at it from the side. I can take a picture if that might help.

Code:


Code:


^
      / \\        
     /   \\--->  TV Stations  
    /     \\|       
   /       \\

Hope that makes sense!


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *craftech* /forum/post/17647329
> 
> 
> I was wondering if someone can help me with this.
> 
> 
> I have cable so this is for my mother who does not. She lives an hour away from me. This is her TV Fool result:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7721428244f26c
> 
> 
> Two years ago I put a DB2 on the roof of her two story house and ran it down into her TV room. I also put a popular Radio Shack Indoor VHF/UHF antenna on top of her TV (it has an indoor/outdoor switch).
> 
> 
> The setup doesn't always work so well.
> 
> After the transition we found out that some of the channels went VHF which negates the roof antenna (DB2). PBS (13) went VHF and doesn't always come in (she loves that station). The RS indoor antenna is probably too low to the ground for reliable VHF reception.
> 
> 
> I bought a CM 7777 amp, but before I crawl up there to install it ( the roof is really steep), I was wondering if that amp will be enough. After all, the DB2 is UHF only.
> 
> 
> And does that amp _HAVE TO_ go on the roof? Can't it go indoors?
> 
> 
> Can I maybe _add_ homemade "rabbit ears" to the DB2 for VHF,
> 
> 
> or should I get an entirely different antenna?
> 
> 
> Or perhaps something else I could do?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> John



John,


Several things.


I'd recommend not using the 7777 at the antenna due to overload risk as those forecast signals are pretty strong. If you want to put that amp in the attic after a moderate cable run (10-20'), your risk of overload would be reduced and it would be easier to install or service.


You could go several routes:


1) Install a small high-VHF/UHF antenna such as an HBU22 from Radio Shack


2) Install a small high-VHF antenna such as the AntennaCraft Y5713 and combine it either with the 7777 or a UVSJ if no 7777 is used.


Edit: Got distracted and didn't finish fast enough... Rick covered much of the same ground.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Do you all think the antenna could be picking up signals bounced off the roof causing multipath or other problems?



Whats the roof made of ? Actually, a lot of newer asphalt shingle roofs contain tiny bits of metal shreds in them (that stick in your hands, heh) that could well affect the antenna performance when mounted too close.


----------



## scottmo2020




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17649846
> 
> 
> Whats the roof made of ? Actually, a lot of newer asphalt shingle roofs contain tiny bits of metal shreds in them (that stick in your hands, heh) that could well affect the antenna performance when mounted too close.



That is a good question. The house is 6 years old with asphalt shingles. I would guess my contractor used low to mid-grade regular residential stuff and nothing too fancy like special energy efficient blah blah...


Scott


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I would guess my contractor used low to mid-grade regular residential stuff



That stuff can have the tiny metal shards in it too, as I found out, heh.


----------



## craftech

Systems2000, Rick, and ProjectSHO89..............


Thanks you so much for the help. You guys are great. I really appreciate the time you spent to help me.


Regards,


John


----------



## systems2000

Did you produce a solution and, if so, how did it come out?


----------



## Vidop

First time posting to this thread--Next spring, I'll be moving to LaFayette, Indiana (47909). I'll be putting up a CM 4228 (old, original style) at ~28' height. I've checked TV Fool and see that the Indianapolis stations I want are ~45-55 miles away, 130 degrees (true), mostly two edge reception (some are one edge). By looking at their chart, I think I can get by without a pre-amp. But, if I do need a pre-amp, there may be a problem. There is one local station (WLFI) located only fourteen miles away. It is at a heading of 67 degrees (true) vs. the 130 degrees of the Indy stations. If I do need a pre-amp, would WLFI overload the pre-amp at that close of a range even though their xmtr is almost sideways to the way my antenna would be pointing (67 degrees vs. 130 degrees)? If it might overload, does anybody have a suggestion of how to negate this? Thanks for the info.


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Vidop* /forum/post/17668865
> 
> 
> First time posting to this thread--Next spring, I'll be moving to LaFayette, Indiana (47909). I'll be putting up a CM 4228 (old, original style) at ~28' height. I've checked TV Fool and see that the Indianapolis stations I want are ~45-55 miles away, 130 degrees (true), mostly two edge reception (some are one edge). By looking at their chart, I think I can get by without a pre-amp. But, if I do need a pre-amp, there may be a problem. There is one local station (WLFI) located only fourteen miles away. It is at a heading of 67 degrees (true) vs. the 130 degrees of the Indy stations. If I do need a pre-amp, would WLFI overload the pre-amp at that close of a range even though their xmtr is almost sideways to the way my antenna would be pointing (67 degrees vs. 130 degrees)? If it might overload, does anybody have a suggestion of how to negate this? Thanks for the info.



Well WLFI is on Ch 11 which is hi-VHF and according to the specs on your old model 4228 the gain for Ch 11 is only 7 db and being 63 degress off it will be less than half that. So I don't think it'll be an issue


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Vidop* /forum/post/17668865
> 
> 
> If it might overload, does anybody have a suggestion of how to negate this? Thanks for the info.



Use an AP-4700 UHF only preamp. (Or an AP-2870 with nothing connected to the VHF input.) Get a Y5-7-13 for WLFI. Add WLFI after the preamp with a UVSJ or channel 11 Jointenna. You won't get WISH with the UVSJ, you might with the Jointenna.


If you want to amplify WISH there's another, but more complicated trick with multiple Jointennas or a third antenna.


----------



## systems2000

I have three stations (within 20 miles of my location) that are reaching me with levels of -31.5 to -37.0dBm and I'm using a pre-amp on a deep fringe VHF/UHF/FM antenna and still lock stations down to -110.7dBm.


Look at acquiring a UHF only pre-amp and get yourself a VHF-hi antenna. Combine this with a UVSJ.


NOTE: I see Tower Guy got his post in before mine.


----------



## systems2000

I use a homemade circular antenna (w/ reflector) for a station (W08EE-D) that is 34 miles LOS and a receive level of -67.3dBm. The cable run goes through a UVSJ and 182' RG-6 to my 901. It doesn't have a pre-amp and is fairly stable.


----------



## Vidop

Thank you to all that responded to possible pre-amp overloading in relation to my future antenna in LaFayette, Indiana. When I am moved and settled in (next year), I'll get my tower put up. And, I definitely will try your suggestions. Once again-thank you.


----------



## aero12

guys. here is my TVfool .


I am dropping cable so would like to get as much as possible.


I am in a multi level building with roof about 40 above ground level.


The problem is there are buildings that rise higher:

1) most problematic it seems will be a building about 200' away blocking line of site to local network stations. the building is at 300 to 330 degrees and about 80' tall. The local (DC) stations are close but there is definitely a building in the way

2) another building at 340 to 30 degrees that rises to 100'

3) one at 30 to 60 degrees that rises to 120' (blocking line of site to Baltimore which are the second set of stations.)

4) and one at 130 to 180 degrees that rises to 200'


cabling aside is there some good advice for antenna in the $100 range? I could go 10' above my own roof line giving me about 50' AGL.


I'd like to do the best I can without trying 15 antennas! Any advice for this close but no line of sight situation?


----------



## scottmo2020




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *aero12* /forum/post/17684184
> 
> 
> guys. here is my TVfool .
> 
> 
> I am dropping cable so would like to get as much as possible.
> 
> 
> I am in a multi level building with roof about 40 above ground level.
> 
> 
> The problem is there are buildings that rise higher:
> 
> 1) most problematic it seems will be a building about 200' away blocking line of site to local network stations. the building is at 300 to 330 degrees and about 80' tall. The local (DC) stations are close but there is definitely a building in the way
> 
> 2) another building at 340 to 30 degrees that rises to 100'
> 
> 3) one at 30 to 60 degrees that rises to 120' (blocking line of site to Baltimore which are the second set of stations.)
> 
> 4) and one at 130 to 180 degrees that rises to 200'
> 
> 
> cabling aside is there some good advice for antenna in the $100 range? I could go 10' above my own roof line giving me about 50' AGL.
> 
> 
> I'd like to do the best I can without trying 15 antennas! Any advice for this close but no line of sight situation?



I'm no expert, but it seems being that close and with those signal levels a simple non-amplified set of rabbit ears would work well! Baltimore would be more of a challenge though.


----------



## aero12




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scottmo2020* /forum/post/17686358
> 
> 
> I'm no expert, but it seems being that close and with those signal levels a simple non-amplified set of rabbit ears would work well! Baltimore would be more of a challenge though.



Nope. building's construction and placement of AV have always made that a problem.


Point is it is easy for me to mount an antenna on the roof, be 50' above ground, I already have the roof wired with good quality rg6 which runs to two rooms with TVs and I don;t mind spending $50 to $100 on a roof antenna.


the question is what is best roof antenna wiht my tvfool report given that even 50' above ground is disrupted by nearby three 80' buildings


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *aero12* /forum/post/17687863
> 
> 
> Nope. building's construction and placement of AV have always made that a problem.
> 
> 
> Point is it is easy for me to mount an antenna on the roof, be 50' above ground, I already have the roof wired with good quality rg6 which runs to two rooms with TVs and I don;t mind spending $50 to $100 on a roof antenna.
> 
> 
> the question is what is best roof antenna with my tvfool report given that even 50' above ground is disrupted by nearby three 80' buildings



The Channel Master 4228HD is $75 with free shipping on Amazon right now.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *klandry7* /forum/post/17689483
> 
> 
> The Channel Master 4228HD is $75 with free shipping on Amazon right now.



The Channel Master 4228 UHF antenna was a very good model, but please be aware of some of the negative reviews relating to the new but supposedly not improved 4228HD.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html 

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


As close as aero12 is to the locals, there could be some multipath issues, especially with the nearby tall buildings. If so, per info at hdtvprimer and from personal experience @ 3-5 miles from local stations, a Yagi antenna, like the Antennas Direct XG91, would do more to tame multipath. If you need lots of gain for the higher UHF channels, like 35-51, the XG91 should be a little better match. My 2 cents.


Steve


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *goldrich* /forum/post/17689666
> 
> 
> The Channel Master 4228 UHF antenna was a very good model, but please be aware of some of the negative reviews relating to the new but supposedly not improved 4228HD.
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
> 
> 
> As close as aero12 is to the locals, there could be some multipath issues, especially with the nearby tall buildings. If so, per info at hdtvprimer and from personal experience @ 3-5 miles from local stations, a Yagi antenna, like the Antennas Direct XG91, would do more to tame multipath. If you need lots of gain for the higher UHF channels, like 35-51, the XG91 should be a little better match. My 2 cents.
> 
> 
> Steve



I have the 4228HD because of it's VHF capabilities. The Antennas Direct ClearStream 4 I had before caught none of my VHF stations. His TVFool report shows VHF stations.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *klandry7* /forum/post/17689857
> 
> 
> I have the 4228HD because of it's VHF capabilities. The Antennas Direct ClearStream 4 I had before caught none of my VHF stations. His TVFool report shows VHF stations.




Per the review at hdtvprimer......"I had High hopes for this antenna for VHF. I figured that with fewer vertical wires, it would not have the vertical currents of its predecessor. But the vertical rods it retains are enough to cause trouble.


The dip at channel 7 is caused by the antenna radiating greatly straight up and down, which diminishes its forward gain.


The dip at channel 9 is caused by the antenna radiating more out the back than out the front, which diminishes its forward gain."

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html 


According to Ken's VHF gain chart, the 4228HD's VHF capabilities on channels 7 and 9 are terrible, and basically the same as using rabbit ears. It appears that aero12 is expecting to receive WJLA on channel 7 and WUSA on channel 9. Personally, I'd prefer to read a little better review about an antenna for the channels I was wanting to receive. Of course, the suggested revisions could be conducted.


Anyone here had some personal experience using the 4228HD (without any revisions) for VHF channels, especially channels 7 and/or 9? My past reception tests with the old 4228 on channels 9 and 13 @ 36-38 miles over mostly flat terrain were bad.


Steve


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *goldrich* /forum/post/17690365
> 
> 
> According to Ken's VHF gain chart, the 4228HD's VHF capabilities on channels 7 and 9 are terrible, and basically the same as using rabbit ears. It appears that aero12 is expecting to receive WJLA on channel 7 and WUSA on channel 9. Personally, I'd prefer to read a little better review about an antenna for the channels I was wanting to receive. Of course, the suggested revisions could be conducted.
> 
> 
> Anyone here had some personal experience using the 4228HD (without any revisions) for VHF channels, especially channels 7 and/or 9? My past reception tests with the old 4228 on channels 9 and 13 @ 36-38 miles over mostly flat terrain were bad.
> 
> 
> Steve



His 7 and 9 are only 3.5 miles away, so should be no problem even if it is no better than rabbit ears for those channels. Mine is unmodified and my 13 is my strongest station, I was looking at his WJZ 13 that is 36 miles away.


----------



## finlay648




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *goldrich* /forum/post/17690365
> 
> 
> Per the review at hdtvprimer......"I had High hopes for this antenna for VHF. I figured that with fewer vertical wires, it would not have the vertical currents of its predecessor. But the vertical rods it retains are enough to cause trouble.
> 
> 
> The dip at channel 7 is caused by the antenna radiating greatly straight up and down, which diminishes its forward gain.
> 
> 
> The dip at channel 9 is caused by the antenna radiating more out the back than out the front, which diminishes its forward gain."
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html
> 
> 
> According to Ken's VHF gain chart, the 4228HD's VHF capabilities on channels 7 and 9 are terrible, and basically the same as using rabbit ears. It appears that aero12 is expecting to receive WJLA on channel 7 and WUSA on channel 9. Personally, I'd prefer to read a little better review about an antenna for the channels I was wanting to receive. Of course, the suggested revisions could be conducted.
> 
> 
> Anyone here had some personal experience using the 4228HD (without any revisions) for VHF channels, especially channels 7 and/or 9? My past reception tests with the old 4228 on channels 9 and 13 @ 36-38 miles over mostly flat terrain were bad.
> 
> 
> Steve



My experience using the old 4228 from 75mi. was good for analog 7, 9, 11 and 13 but after the transition digital 9 and 11 had problems with adjacent channel interference so I had to add a YA1713.


----------



## aero12




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *finlay648* /forum/post/17690595
> 
> 
> My experience using the old 4228 from 75mi. was good for analog 7, 9, 11 and 13 but after the transition digital 9 and 11 had problems with adjacent channel interference so I had to add a YA1713.



with rabbit ears I am not getting 9


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *aero12* /forum/post/17684184
> 
> 
> guys. here is my TVfool I'd like to do the best I can without trying 15 antennas! Any advice for this close but no line of sight situation?



With all those buildings around, signal reflections will be a huge concern. A yagi style antenna like the Winegard HD7694P would be my personal choice. Unfortunately,there is no guarantee that any antenna will provide hiccup free reception under such conditions.


----------



## deltaguy

aero12,


What does the landscape to your south look like? If you could use your building to block reflections from the tall buildings nearby, you might be able to catch a good reflection from a southern aim, not in line with the "correct" aim. This would require a lower antenna elevation, however. It's a chance fix.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *aero12* /forum/post/17684184
> 
> 
> 2) another building at 340 to 30 degrees that rises to 100'
> 
> 3) one at 30 to 60 degrees that rises to 120' (blocking line of site to Baltimore which are the second set of stations.)
> 
> 4) and one at 130 to 180 degrees that rises to 200'



How far away are these buildings?

How important are WBAL & WJZ?


You'll find that there is no definitive answer to all antenna applications. Your situation is definitely going to have Multi-Path issues. WDCW and WNVC are your major stations not within 12° of each other for the D.C. Market. Since most of the D.C. stations are greater than 60NM, they should be fairly easy to catch.


Baltimore is going to be more of a challenge at 30-35° and levels of 6.5 to 17.4NM.


----------



## fatrhino

Looking for some advice here,
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7d5269350cd605 


All of the main stations that I would like to recieve are 16 miles away from me, but signal levels of -50/-60dBm. There are also 2 VHF Hi channels in there. Unfortunately I am limited to an attic mounted antenna. I am looking at these:


CM2016

ANT751

CM2018


It would be just a single 25' RG6 run to 1 TV. Currently I can get all my main channels with a homemade UHF antenna, but it takes a lot of moving the antenna around the room to get an acceptable lock. Would any of those antennas listed be sufficient?


----------



## Larry Kenney

I've got two of the old CM 4228 antennas on my roof - one for the living room and one for the family room/bedroom TVs. Since the pros and cons of the 4228 are being discussed, I thought I'd pass on my experiences.


For UHF, the antenna works great. I can get UHF stations located 65 miles away on channels 21, 35 and 46 with no problem. But for VHF it does not work so well, and I've had to add an Antenna Craft Y-10-7-13.


We have two local VHF channels, one on 7 just 3/4 of a mile away and one on 12 five miles away. The 4228 works for those. Channel 7 is close enough that the 4228 brings in a strong signal... no problem. For channel 12 I get a fairly decent signal of 26 dB SNR, but nowhere near as good as the 32 dB I get with the VHF Y-10.


There are two VHF stations that are 65 miles away on channels 9 and 10. They are non-existent on the 4228, but 18 to 20 dB SNR on the VHF Y-10.


So, in conclusion, if you looking for reception of local VHF channels, the 4228 will work okay, but you'll need something else if you want to receive stations that are more distant.


Larry

SF


----------



## paris_tn

Has anyone checked lately if Lafayette Electronic Supply still has any Wade Delhi Vip-306's left or if Wade is still making them?


I know someone that is stacking some uhf's this weekend, that possibly might get a seperate vhf low and vhf high antenna as he is deep fringe but also thought about the vip-306. The problem is, he has both vhf high and low stations that are deep fringe. I bought a 306 6 or 8 months ago but is still in the box and haven't had a chance of putting it up. When i talked to Wade in Canada(8 months ago), someone mentioned possibly making the 307 again and keep on with the 306 as they were selling pretty good when i bought mine(or had picked up).


If Wade is not making the 306/307 anymore what would be the next best bet for a full vhf antenna or better yet would he just be better off getting a seperate Wineguard/Antennacraft for both vhf's? When i mention deep fringe, 65 to 100 miles but he is up high on a tower and on a good high elevated spot.


----------



## PCTools

FWIW, I bought two of those VIP307's, and they are monsters. In today's age, I see no purpose in trying to get these.


Just get a good Ch 7 -13 antenna, and you are fine. Unless, in your area you need to get channels below 7.


----------



## aero12




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/17691791
> 
> 
> How far away are these buildings?
> 
> How important are WBAL & WJZ?
> 
> 
> You'll find that there is no definitive answer to all antenna applications. Your situation is definitely going to have Multi-Path issues. WDCW and WNVC are your major stations not within 12° of each other for the D.C. Market. Since most of the D.C. stations are greater than 60NM, they should be fairly easy to catch.
> 
> 
> Baltimore is going to be more of a challenge at 30-35° and levels of 6.5 to 17.4NM.



the building to the north (#2)is about 70 feet away. the building to the north east (#3) about 120' away. The building to the south (#4) is about 300' away. the building in line of sight with the main DC towers to the north west (#1) is about 120 away.


As another data point, I tried a cheap indoor/outdoor monoprice antenna today as I had a large order with monoprice last week and decided to give it a try. I discovered, or perhaps discovered, that the tuner on my Olevia 42" ($700 microcenter 2006 Olevia 542i) seems very substandard compared to a centronics zat 502hd tuner I have purchased for our second monitor type TV. I don't see any specific tuner problems on the 542i thread, but the centronics is getting twice as many channels and all better.


I have ordered today a Winegard HD-1080 from Amazon which was $35 shipped. I have read up a bit and realize they all have limits, but while I have full roof access and can do whatever I like up there, I have a flat roof with no masonry to use for attachment of antenna, so I a inclined to give a compact design of the 1080 a try first since I am going to mount it by drilling into some 4x4 under one of our larger air conditioning units. But it probably is unwise to go more than 10' up or to go with a larger antenna.


----------



## aero12

OK I have installed a Winegard HD-1080HD on my roof. It is about 8 feet up giving a net of a bit less than 50' above ground level. Alone it is doing better than the monoprice antenna (either in or outdoors) but not great. But I dug up a radioshack ( http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103092 ) "Bidirectional Cable TV Amplifier" and this greatly improves reception.


Also as I mentioned my Centronics Standalone tuner (which I bought for a tunerless monitor) does much MUCH better than the inherent tuner in my Olevia 542i. In fact I will be getting a second centronics to use with the Olelvia.


Here is my current set up: Winegard 1080HD 50' AGL, 50' coax, RS Bidir Amp" set at midpoint of output, "2 GHz four-way splitter", -> a) 6' to Olevia b) 120' to Centronics Tuner.


I don't know if the RS amp is optimum. It is four or five years old.


I am flabberghasted at the poor results from the internal Olevia tuner. Is there anything I should try before springing another $100 on a second centronics?


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *aero12* /forum/post/17704155
> 
> 
> Here is my current set up: Winegard 1080HD 50' AGL, 50' coax, RS Bidir Amp" set at midpoint of output, "2 GHz four-way splitter", -> a) 6' to Olevia b) 120' to Centronics Tuner.
> 
> 
> I don't know if the RS amp is optimum. It is four or five years old.



Get yourself a Channel Master 3414 distribution amplifier and remove the Radio Shack Bi-Directional Distribution Amplifier and 4-way splitter.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *aero12* /forum/post/17704155
> 
> 
> I am flabberghasted at the poor results from the internal Olevia tuner.



That's because the Olevia tuner is probably a generation or two behind what the STB's currently have. I'm not sure if there are any televisions that currently have sixth generation tuners.


----------



## aero12




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/17704337
> 
> 
> Get yourself a Channel Master 3414 distribution amplifier and remove the Radio Shack Bi-Directional Distribution Amplifier and 4-way splitter.....
> 
> That's because the Olevia tuner is probably a generation or two behind what the STB's currently have. I'm not sure if there are any televisions that currently have sixth generation tuners.



Thanks to you and everyone for the advice. I ordered a 3414 and will be buying a second centrionics ZAT


On the newer generation tuners I wonder how many people out there with three-year-old or older hdtvs are struggling with various antenna and other reception variables who would be better off giving a new $100 tuner a try!


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *aero12* /forum/post/17705532
> 
> 
> Thanks to you and everyone for the advice. I ordered a 3414 and will be buying a second centrionics ZAT
> 
> 
> On the newer generation tuners I wonder how many people out there with three-year-old or older hdtvs are struggling with various antenna and other reception variables who would be better off giving a new $100 tuner a try!



I'm curious aero, what was the model number of your Centronics tuner. Was that the Centronics ZAT 502HD? Also, I wonder if the current generation of TVs have better tuners in them. Perhaps the external tuner is still a smarter option.


Cheers


----------



## aero12




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Satcom15* /forum/post/17707084
> 
> 
> I'm curious aero, what was the model number of your Centronics tuner. Was that the Centronics ZAT 502HD? Also, I wonder if the current generation of TVs have better tuners in them. Perhaps the external tuner is still a smarter option.
> 
> 
> Cheers



Mine is a Centronics ZAT 502 HD. I do not have the firmware/build version right in front of me now, but I ordered it about four days ago (it came in one day) direct from centronics site.


The comparison to the Olevia 542i tuner is profound. I receive many more channels and all digital channels better with the ZAt502HD. That includes placing the ZAT in the same place as the olevia and comparing with same antenna input using RS am, not using RS amp. using monoprice ant inside, using it outside, using roof winegard antenna.


I realized this is an antenna thread so I don't wish to distract, but it is an incredible difference at least with my Olevia. I had bought the centronics for an Olevia monitor only (Olevia 327) which although 120' further down the antenna run got much better than the integrated tuner Olevia


----------



## dvansowhat

There is a big difference in tv tuners as I have large lcd that will pick up more stations than my small lcd and I have a W-7698 feeding both. As far as tuners go I set up a 7698 antenna for my father and tried an RCA tuner on his old tv and received no signal so I set up my small lcd and it picked up all the stations that were avaible in his area which are 65 mi. away and this with no amp. So yes there is a big difference in built in tv tuners.


----------



## scottmo2020

Hi,

I posted this in the Grand Rapids forum a few days ago, but I wanted to see if any antenna experts here had some ideas.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post17708177 


I wasn't sure about cross posting and all of that type of stuff, but if anyone could check it out I'd appreciate it!

Scott


----------



## re_nelson

Situated in my attic some 40 miles north of the D/FW antenna farm, I'm very happy with the setup of a 91XG and YA-1713 combined into a CM-7777. Every single full-power signal from Cedar Hill shows a signal quality of at least 93% and even the 15 kW Us range from 72% to 87%.


So what's sub-optimal? Low band VHF. Although the programming on the market's low power facility on channel 3 is of no interest to me, I'd still like to see if I can get it better. Also given our proximity to Mexico, I'd like to try to pull in some of the analogs on 2-6 from across the border (atmospherics permitting, of course).


My plan is to grab an Antenna Craft Y5-2-6 and combine it with the hi-VHF YA-1713 using a Pico HLSJ and then feed that into the CM-7777.


Is that proposed scheme viable?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *re_nelson* /forum/post/17735414
> 
> 
> My plan is to grab an Antenna Craft Y5-2-6 and combine it with the hi-VHF YA-1713 using a Pico HLSJ and then feed that into the CM-7777.
> 
> 
> Is that proposed scheme viable?



The scheme is ideal.


----------



## re_nelson

As mentioned upthread, one part of my attic antenna setup is a Winegard YA-1713 which certainly lives up to its impressive reputation.


I'm curious about the design of this yagi -- particularly the parts on the rear boom -- comprised of 6 elements which I measured when the antenna arrived.


The rearmost is a 34.5" reflector and then there are two 24" directors on the front of that rear boom. So what of the remaining three middle elements? They measure 25.5", 19.5" and 34" from front to back, with the snapon cartridge under the 25.5" element. Are they three drivers strapped together tuned for different wavelengths or some other design?


----------



## rabbit73

The YA-1713 is a yagi/LPDA hybrid. A pure yagi would not have a wide enough bandwidth to cover 7-13. A Log-perodic (LPDA) design would cover 7-13, but the Y-1713 combines features of both (parasitic elements AND more than one driven element). The design is quite successful but you can see that it does best around CH11:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w1713.html 
http://winegard.com/kbase/upload/ya-1713.pdf 

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html scroll down to VHF and compare raw gain curves with net gain curves.


If you need only one VHF channel, then a single channel yagi would be better.


> Quote:
> I've tried and tried to get KSFW from my location to no avail (in spite of being well within the contour as shown in the application). I have no problem at all getting low-V KHPK/3, with 300 watts...


 www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d8adf75cb5f1056 


Oh, yes. I see KSFW way down the list at -97.6 dBm 2Edge, far below KHPK/3.


----------



## holl_ands

The YA-1713 has two active elements in front of the rear, passive reflector.

They are interconnected with a crossover feedline, forming a two-element LPDA.

The other elements are directors, as in a typical Yagi design...forming a "Log-Yagi".


Log-Yagi's, like "similar" back half of an RCA ANT-751, are difficult to model in NEC2:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands 

Note that the gain loss across Ch13 predicted by NEC2 computer models was NOT

found when I (and others) did actual on-air tests....


The extremely close spacing of the director near the active elements

helps to adjust SWR, more than it affects overall gain.


----------



## Bruce Watson

Forgive me -- I've searched and searched and can't find a good answer to my question. But I can't believe it's not here -- it's got to be somewhere on the AVS forum site. So if anyone knows where I should be looking, please point me in the right direction.


My problem is multipath. I've got a CM 4220-HD on my roof. About 85 feet of coax (it's as short as I could make it). No amplifier -- AntennaWeb tells me that I'm about 13 miles from the major antenna farm that has most of the broadcast antennas for the stations I'm most interested in, so signal strength isn't my problem.


My problem is that eventhough I'm up reasonably high in the city I'd need at least 30 feet more height to clear all the buildings, and 70-100+ feed to clear all the trees to get clear line of sight to the antenna farm. Sadly, that's just not going to happen, so I find myself in multipath hell. You just gotta love an 8VSB signal.










I'm thinking that what I need is an antenna with a tighter beam to cut down on the size of the side lobes, and thus cut down on the amplitude of the multipath signals. Said another way, to increase the strength of the main signal relative to the multipath parts. So I'm thinking along the lines of something like the Winegard HD-9032 .


Am I barking up the correct tree here, or is there a better / easier / smarter way to approach the problem? If so, please enlighten me, because clearly I need it!


And if a corner reflector design (actually a Yagi design?) is in fact the right way to go, how do I find the right design for what I want -- which is a low gain but tight focus? Is that even made? And if not, are there any make-your-own designs out there for something like what I need?


Clearly I know just enough to be dangerous; any help really appreciated.


----------



## holl_ands

Seems you are headed in the right down the right "path".

Narrow beam antenna with a high Front/Back Ratio, such

as HD-9032, 91XG or CM-4228 (which also does Ch7-13).


You should ALSO insert a Variable RF Attenuator on the coax to

prevent overload desensitization:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...u=853748001293 


You need to determine which direction the strongest, cleanest signal is

coming from....it might be a bounce off a building.


Older DTV receivers are particularly susceptible to multipath,

compared to DTV's built in the past two years...and any CECB.


----------



## rabbit73

Bruce Watson:


Your multipath problem reminds me of two previous posts by *GSP* and *serendipity*:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1914 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1915 

*serendipity* gives a link for a novel solution to a multipath problem:
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~wn17/ note that it has two pages


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/17790116
> 
> 
> Seems you are headed in the right down the right "path". Narrow beam antenna with a high Front/Back Ratio, such
> 
> as HD-9032, 91XG or CM-4228 (which also does Ch7-13).



What about the Channel Master 4221HD?


It has twice the elements of the 4220HD, but half the elements of the 4228HD.


----------



## rabbit73

Vertical stacking of bowties narrows the vertical beamwidth, but it doesn't change the horizontal beamwidth. Multipath problems caused by buildings usually require a narrower horizontal beamwidth which is obtained by horizontal stacking.


The reason why the 4228 was so popular is because it gave a narrower horizontal beamwidth than the 4221, even though it didn't give anywhere near the promised theoretical gain increase of 3 dB.


----------



## bommai

I am building a house in Melbourne, Florida. I have a balcony in the back (facing west). I have pre-wired an RG6 cable into a box in the soffit of the balcony's roof. I was hoping to mount a smaller probably amplified antenna using a J-mount to the side of a 6"x6" pole that supports the roof of the balcony. The towers are 321 degrees and about 37 miles away. I need a directional antenna. Florida is pretty flat. I am new here so don't have experience with OTA reception. What is the best way to choose the antenna? I was hoping to avoid a big installation on top of my roof and just use a J-mount on the side of the pillar in the balcony.


Any advice?


----------



## The Hound

Only bump I see is NBC on channel 11, other wise a UHF yagi and you'd be golden.


----------



## holl_ands

Best way is to enter your location into www.tvfool.com to see how much "Noise Margin" (NM) is available...

then post the results URL here....


----------



## re_nelson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/17776637
> 
> 
> www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d8adf75cb5f1056
> 
> 
> Oh, yes. I see KSFW way down the list at -97.6 dBm 2Edge, far below KHPK/3.



You're looking at the (now gone) ultra-low power analog facility. The KSFW digital plant -- a scant 30.6 miles northward -- is LOS and -55.4 dBm, above that of KHPK/3. In theory, it ought to be 5x5 hereabouts.


I now have the AntennaCraft Y5-2-6 designed for low-band VHF which is ``not working'' as expected. But that a new topic downthread.


----------



## re_nelson

The bright and shiny Y5-2-6 came in today but 't'aint working like I thought it would on low-band VHF. I'm convinced that I'm at fault in some way. Although it's a simple antenna, I must have somehow managed to botch things.


Now the story...and I'll go into excessive detail to make things clear:


I carefully unfolded all 5 elements, making sure not to bend or warp them.


Since its output impedance is a 300 ohm, I obtained a balun at Lowes. Why AntennaCraft doesn't provide one in a mostly 75 ohm age is beyond me. But...anyway...


I spread the balun's twinlead so that the spade lugs fit snugly into the terminal posts situated on the driver element and secured them with the supplied washers and wingnuts.


Then I hooked it up to a test set with an ATSC/NTSC tuner. Nothing. There's an analog on 6 that I get just fine with a little old Terk HDTVo. The big Y5-2-6 to the same set yields only snow. A usually reliable LD on 3 never captured on the digital side of the tuner.


Until...quite by accident, when re-aiming the Y5-2-6, I happened to touch the boom with the outer shield of the F-connector. Voila...there was analog 6 loud and clear.


I then put the newly-acquired Lowes Balun on another antenna (YA-1713) to see if the balun was faulty. That balun worked without fault when connected properly to the other antenna and without the outer shield touching the boom. But back on the Y5-2-6, no luck until I touch that shield to the boom.


Any ideas? It's two connections and a few sticks of metal. I'll be more than happy to fill in any gaps.


----------



## The Hound

Same lead, same TV for both antennas?


----------



## re_nelson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *The Hound* /forum/post/17812346
> 
> 
> Same lead, same TV for both antennas?



Yep. Since my real world job involves troubleshooting, I know that isolating variables is critical in problem solving.


The black twin lead portion connecting to the Lowes balun was the same on both the Y5-2-6 and the YA-1713. In other words, I didn't modify the stock balun -- in spite of the fact that the ``spread'' is pretty wide on the terminals of the Y5-2-6.


When I connected the balun to the YA-1713, I used a couple of clip leads to connect to the wires where the Winegard cartridge housing would normally be. For the purpose of this A/B test, I did remove the supplied Winegard black cartridge part so that I could verify the correctness of the balun.


The RG-6 cable on the F-connector side of the balun was the same for both tests, a 12 foot length going directly to the television without any preamp, joiner, splitter or coupler.


One more oddity I since discovered. The low-band Y5-2-6 is pulling in nearly all of the high-band Vs and Us in the market when the balun is connected properly, that is without the outer shield touching the boom.


So, the Y5-2-6 is functioning as a pretty passable 7-51 antenna but not grabbing anything in the band for which it was designed. Sure is a lot of metal to function like a coat hanger! 


It's got to be something simple and braindead simple that I'm overlooking. Just to make sure I'm not fighting some balun madness, I'll grab another one later today. That's one variable that I can't test since I have only one at present.


Leave it to me to perhaps stumble upon a balun that has a notch filter below 174 mHz!  But it works when the F connector's metal shield touches the boom. Argh. Argv. Argc.


----------



## wildwillie6

Simple question, I think: What TV channels do FM radio signals interfere with? (In an idle moment, I switched my "antenna" cable over to the antenna input of my FM receiver and got great FM reception . . . I had thought the FM trap had been enabled, but I guess it hadn't been. That led me to wonder what TV channels those signals might be interfering with.)


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wildwillie6* /forum/post/17812815
> 
> 
> Simple question, I think: What TV channels do FM radio signals interfere with? (In an idle moment, I switched my "antenna" cable over to the antenna input of my FM receiver and got great FM reception . . . I had thought the FM trap had been enabled, but I guess it hadn't been. That led me to wonder what TV channels those signals might be interfering with.)



Willie,


FM-band broadcasts usually interfere with the high-VHF channels whose frequency is twice that of the FM broadcast's frequency.


The following chart is excerpted from Falcon_77's DTV spreadsheet.



High-VHF MHz FM Stations

ch freq range 2nd Order Harmonics

7 174 180 87 90

8 180 186 90 93

9 186 192 93 96

10 192 198 96 99

11 198 204 99 102

12 204 210 102 105

13 210 216 105 108



FM traps (passive filters) generally come in two varieties: Those that try to preserve channel 6 and those that don't.


If the filter tries to preserve channel 6, it won't start rolling off until around 89 mHz and will still let a lot of lower FM signal through until it hits its peak rejection somewhere closer to the middle of the FM band.


Those that don't try to protect channel 6 will start rolling of in channel 6's band and will pretty much whack the whole FM band by at least 25-30 dB, depending on design.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *re_nelson* /forum/post/17812450
> 
> 
> Leave it to me to perhaps stumble upon a balun that has a notch filter below 174 mHz!



That's what I am thinking.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wildwillie6* /forum/post/17812815
> 
> 
> Simple question, I think: What TV channels do FM radio signals interfere with? (In an idle moment, I switched my "antenna" cable over to the antenna input of my FM receiver and got great FM reception . . . I had thought the FM trap had been enabled, but I guess it hadn't been. That led me to wonder what TV channels those signals might be interfering with.)



The FM trap in a typical preamp allows the lowest frequency signals to get through fine. They greatest attenuation is above 100 mhz. Even then, the loss of the trap is offset by the gain of the preamp.


----------



## systems2000

Are you using a pre-amp? Before the transition, I found that my FM trap (on my Channel Master pre-amp) needed fine tuning to get better reception on RF7. Luckily I found the problem before analog RF7 was off the air and it was easy to adjust.


If not adjusted right, a variable FM trap can destroy RF 6 or 7.


Attached, you'll find a table of the strong FM stations in my area and where the harmonics land within my VHF-High reception.


----------



## alphanguy

I have visited K7MEM's site where he has that UHF yagi design tool, and it works great... is there any plans or design tools online for a wideband DIY FM antenna?


----------



## re_nelson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17813085
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *re_nelson* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Leave it to me to perhaps stumble upon a balun that has a notch filter below 174 mHz!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I am thinking.
Click to expand...


Tonight, I'm planning to pick up a couple of 300/75 ohm matching transformers, one from Lowes and the other from Radio Shack. That should allow me identify if the one from Lowes has an undocumented filter to reject anything lower than high-V.


I'll post a followup here with my findings.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alphanguy* /forum/post/17814466
> 
> 
> I have visited K7MEM's site where he has that UHF yagi design tool, and it works great... is there any plans or design tools online for a wideband DIY FM antenna?



See K6STI's FM website (he also has an excellent medium-gain Yagi for Ch7-13):
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/ 

K6STI's FM & Hi-VHF Yagis have very high Front/Back Ratios to suppress interference

from other channels & noise and are computer optimized to cover the entire band,

whereas most DIY Yagi's are only good across a much smaller bandwidth.


I analyzed several Hi-VHF antennas that can be rescaled for the FM band. They

include simple Folded Dipole, Loops, Yagis, Log Periodic Dipole Array (LPDA) and

Zig-Zag LPA with references to design information:
www.imageevent.com/hollands 

Fortunately, Hi-VHF and FM bands both have bandwidths of about 21 percent.

For FM band, rescale all dimensions LARGER by a factor of TWO (196/98=2.0).


----------



## rabbit73

*re_nelson*:

Have you talked to Trip, I think he has a Y5-2-6:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=5345 
http://images.townnews.com/southside...tories/ts3.jpg


----------



## re_nelson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/17818533
> 
> *re_nelson*:
> 
> Have you talked to Trip, I think he has a Y5-2-6:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=5345
> http://images.townnews.com/southside...tories/ts3.jpg



Thanks for asking. Yes, we briefly chatted in this forum several weeks ago. His home location has the AntennaCraft Y5-2-6 on the top with a Winegard PR-8800 below it as the links show. He noted that the Y5-2-6 is used for both high and low VHF. I didn't discuss the specifics of the balun or cabling, though.


But that does bring us to the followup I promised upthread:


I got out of work late tonight -- after all of the Radio Shacks were closed but Lowes was still open so I got a new and slightly different balun. The older I had from Lowes shows ``UHF/VHF MATCHING TRANSFORMER'' in white on black. The one I obtained tonight has a longer (4" vs 2.5") section of twin lead and has an embossed label of ``MATCHING TRANSFORMER''.


The newly-obtained balun now works fine in contrast to the older one which behaved almost as if it had a low-VHF notch filter. Odd that, eh?


Anyway, I'm rather surprised at how well this large antenna (80" boom and 110" reflector) performs on VHF high, which likely squares with Trip's experience. I guess there's just so much metal in the air that it's bound to capture most anything that looks like RF bouncing its way. 


The Y5-2-6 design is rather interesting to me and I'll defer to an expert to explain its traits. The driven element is a loop (folded dipole?), the bottom part of the loop is isolated from the boom (that's where the terminal posts are) but the top part appears to be electrically joined to the boom, along with the 3 directors and rear reflector. So smrat folks, how's this sucker work to pluck the pictures as they go flyin' through the air?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *re_nelson* /forum/post/17820047
> 
> 
> The driven element is a loop (folded dipole?), the bottom part of the loop is isolated from the boom (that's where the terminal posts are) but the top part appears to be electrically joined to the boom, along with the 3 directors and rear reflector. So smrat folks, how's this sucker work to pluck the pictures as they go flyin' through the air?



The center of the folded dipole element has zero potential. It can be grounded without hurting the performance, and the ground is a great safety feature to prevent lightning from getting down the center of the coax.


----------



## rabbit73

re_nelson:


> Quote:
> The newly-obtained balun now works fine in contrast to the older one which behaved almost as if it had a low-VHF notch filter. Odd that, eh?



Good detective work!


Thanks for letting us know where we might encounter defective baluns.


I tried about 20 different baluns to find the best one to optimize reception for CH15 with a CM4221. All of them worked, but the spread was over 5 dB so the extra effort was worth it.


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: In addition to the antenna combiner comparison test, *tballister* also

tried various modifications to the DB-8, including a wire to connect

the ends of the whiskers, feedline vs splitter and an angled reflector

extension. The much larger reflector was the most effective:
http://www.antennahacks.com/Hacks/MyDB8.htm 

He also did some OTA antenna comparisons using a spectrum analyzer:
http://www.antennahacks.com


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cpcat* /forum/post/17584090
> 
> 
> Here's the gain graph for the Triax Unix 100A. It's band specific for uhf 14-38 (UK channels 21-40). The graph on the left is the 100A:
> http://alpha.future.ee/triax_unix.png
> 
> 
> 
> Theoretically, the gain would approach +6db over that of a single antenna. I'd estimate based on the graph somewhere around 19dbi at channel 14 maybe up to around 22dbi at channel 36. It starts to drop off steeply above channel 40. The horizontal beamwidth is very narrow as you'd expect at around 1/4 that of a single antenna .



Yes, they do work well for channels below 40.I have a couple of new Triax Band A's and some Mercury A/E combiners that I can part with if someone needs them.I use four in an inline quad with two widebanders on top for everything above 40.


----------



## keeper

Hey guys- I have a question. I am trying to get a channel 11 and 13 from about 58 miles away at very good elevation. I started with the Y5-7-13 antenna craft but am getting some dropouts eventhough strength on my dish meter is at around 93. Thinking of getting the Y10-7-13. I am thinking that I have some multipath problems because the signal will drop down to 70ish for a few seconds before returning to 90+. Anyway how much of an improvement is the Y10 over the Y5. And is the Y10 more directional? Thanks


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keeper* /forum/post/17841120
> 
> 
> Anyway how much of an improvement is the Y10 over the Y5. And is the Y10 more directional? Thanks



2.5 db

http://www.antennacraft.net/Yagi.html 


11 degrees sharper.


----------



## keeper

tHANKS


----------



## PCTools

Just purchased a new Denon AVR-3310, which has HD Radio. Looks like I will be buying an outdoor FM antenna. No more room left on the top of the tower with the Funke High Bander, and a stacked array of 91XG's.


Unless:


1) Their is some forgiveness with Funke HighBander's, as to my knowledge they only receive Ch. 7 - 11, whern FM is between Ch. 6 - 7.

2) I will have to crawl back up on the tower and disable the FM trap feature on the Channel Master Pre-Amp.


Any thoughts?


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/7877432
> 
> 
> I bought a white noise generator with a 5-2,000Mhz output and -10dBmV output level for about $300 that is the size of a cigarette pack. I think it was made by Applied Instruments. ...



Applied Instruments has cut its price for its NS-1 white noise generator, which I had actually paid more like $380 for a few years ago, to $199 plus about $8 shipping.


You can now order it directly from them HERE .



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/7881542
> 
> 
> When you tune some notch filters, the tuning can change if it has a removable box or lid....and of course you should use a non-metalic tuning wand. ...





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/7881965
> 
> 
> ...A funny thing about tuning Winegard UT-2700s is that even though the adjustable tuning component is a capacitor, which is non-inductive, it is in the proximity of inductive circuitry, so an inductive tuning tool will throw off the tuning value just by being near some other component when adjusting those variable capacitors. These appear to be the same variable capacitors that I have no trouble tuning in MX-4U 4-channel combiners (discontinued a decade ago, but I have a stash that I won't share with anyone at any price!) using the smaller of the two, Radio Shack, anti-static blade-type tuner adjustment tools, but when I remove the tool from the UT-2700s, the notch moves, so I first see what the maximum benefit is that I can get with the tool installed, then I misadjust it a little to the left and right until, upon removal of the tool, the notch jumps back to where it had been optimal with the tool inserted in the capacitor's slot.
> 
> 
> The slot on those tunable capacitors is really slim, and I haven't yet found a non-inductive tuning blade. If anyone can recommend one, I'll buy it and give it a shot.




Wiha 27013 Precision ceramic, 1.3 mm non-magnetic, antistatic, slotted screwdrivers, which are absolutely ideal for tuning the Winegard UT-2700 dual tunable notch filter, can be found for $13 each or less by Googling, "Wiha" and "27013". Like lots of small purchases, the shipping is brutal on a quantity of one, so wherever you buy it, you might as well poke around and see if they have anything else you might need.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> but Lowes was still open so I got a new and slightly different balun. The older I had from Lowes shows ``UHF/VHF MATCHING TRANSFORMER'' in white on black. The one I obtained tonight has a longer (4" vs 2.5") section of twin lead and has an embossed label of ``MATCHING TRANSFORMER''.
> 
> 
> The newly-obtained balun now works fine in contrast to the older one which behaved almost as if it had a low-VHF notch filter. Odd that, eh?



The outdoor ones Lowes now sells are Phillips also available at Wal-Mart.

From what Ive observed from other posters, they can be very good or not so good, it depends on the individual unit/batch. Luckily, the two I have seem to be very good.


----------



## bommai

I am building a house in Melbourne, Florida - unfortunately in a HOA neighborhood that has restrictions on how big the antenna can be. The transmission towers are about 37 miles away (Northwest at 321 degrees).


I want to avoid installing a mast on the roof and instead would like to use a J-mount on the side of my house and aim a compact antenna toward the towers.


Am I deluding myself into thinking that I can get good reception using a compact antenna all the way to 37 miles?


I can't really do attic antenna since my attic is pretty shallow and also because my roof boards have the radiant barrier layer built-in on the inside. This barrier is metal and would prevent an attic antenna from working well.


Any tips!


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bommai* /forum/post/17851508
> 
> 
> I am building a house in Melbourne, Florida - unfortunately in a HOA neighborhood that has restrictions on how big the antenna can be. The transmission towers are about 37 miles away (Northwest at 321 degrees).
> 
> 
> I want to avoid installing a mast on the roof and instead would like to use a J-mount on the side of my house and aim a compact antenna toward the towers.
> 
> 
> Am I deluding myself into thinking that I can get good reception using a compact antenna all the way to 37 miles?
> 
> 
> I can't really do attic antenna since my attic is pretty shallow and also because my roof boards have the radiant barrier layer built-in on the inside. This barrier is metal and would prevent an attic antenna from working well.
> 
> 
> Any tips!



A compact UHF antenna should do well for all the Orlando stations (except the NBC affiliate WESH) provided you have a decent line of sight towards the towers. WESH will generally require a larger antenna for the high-VHF band. You might want to run and post an accurate TVFool plot for your new home to check for potential specific issues.


FWIW, HOAs under federal law, generally cannot regulate the size or mounting location of OTA antennas to the point that they don't work properly. See the OTARD rules for specifics.


----------



## PCTools

Gotta love those crank down towers.


Looks great!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MAX HD* /forum/post/17831733
> 
> 
> Yes, they do work well for channels below 40.I have a couple of new Triax Band A's and some Mercury A/E combiners that I can part with if someone needs them.I use four in an inline quad with two widebanders on top for everything above 40.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/17868737
> 
> 
> Gotta love those crank down towers.
> 
> 
> Looks great!



Check this out.

http://www.kkn.net/dayton2006/K9LTN.pdf 


Ron


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/17873874
> 
> 
> Check this out.
> 
> http://www.kkn.net/dayton2006/K9LTN.pdf
> 
> 
> Ron



Does he get TV from Mars with that thing? Seems A LOT more expensive than just getting cable or satellite.


----------



## Ken H




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BCF68* /forum/post/17874995
> 
> 
> Does he get TV from Mars with that thing? Seems A LOT more expensive than just getting cable or satellite.



Trust me, this guy wasn't working within a budget. He was building the biggest, baddest, privately owned antenna system ever. Wow.


----------



## AntAltMike

Somebody in Canada used to make a 32-bay bowtie. 8 vertical by 4 columns. I think it sold for around $4,000 or so, but my link to it expired some time ago.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ken H* /forum/post/17875105
> 
> 
> Trust me, this guy wasn't working within a budget. He was building the biggest, baddest, privately owned antenna system ever. Wow.



It's not known exactly how much it cost. I've seen numbers ranging between $100,000 and $500,000. The list price for each yagi is $2285, so just the six antennas alone cost $13,710.

http://www.steppir.com/Catalog.html 


Ron


----------



## bommai




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/17852211
> 
> 
> A compact UHF antenna should do well for all the Orlando stations (except the NBC affiliate WESH) provided you have a decent line of sight towards the towers. WESH will generally require a larger antenna for the high-VHF band. You might want to run and post an accurate TVFool plot for your new home to check for potential specific issues.
> 
> 
> FWIW, HOAs under federal law, generally cannot regulate the size or mounting location of OTA antennas to the point that they don't work properly. See the OTARD rules for specifics.



Here is the tvfool report

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...b32b9c97beee6c 


I am building a new house and just want to avoid putting a tripod on the roof to support a tall mast and a big antenna. Just a preference. I have use a J-mount before with good success in a different city but the towers were closer. Also, I don't know how well the tripods do in hurricane winds (I assume I need some form of tripod for roof mount).


As you said, most of the DTV channels from Orlando are in UHF except for NBC affiliate. I would like to get all of them. What do you think about the Channel Master 3010 with amplifier?


----------



## tshaff09

Urgh...added Channel Master 8 port distribution amp to my setup (to replace 2 splitters - a mess) and lost my distant channels. Too much noise?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tshaff09* /forum/post/17878032
> 
> 
> Urgh...added Channel Master 8 port distribution amp to my setup (to replace 2 splitters - a mess) and lost my distant channels. Too much noise?



Maybe, but probably not.


More likely it's due to the tuner being desensitized by the now stronger local stations' signals. Might be inter-modulation in the amplifier.


----------



## craftech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/17659962
> 
> 
> Did you produce a solution and, if so, how did it come out?



I decided to wait until spring. The pitch on her roof is almost as steep as a Swiss Chalet and I am 64 years old. Not a good combination for Winter roof installations.


I'll update this at that time. Thanks again.


John


----------



## tshaff09

Thanks for the info. I have an attenuator in my line, which may not be enough?

What is inter-modualtion, having signals directly hit the distribution unit?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bommai* /forum/post/17877304
> 
> 
> As you said, most of the DTV channels from Orlando are in UHF except for NBC affiliate. I would like to get all of them. What do you think about the Channel Master 3010 with amplifier?



I predict that the amplifier will be overloaded. You'd be better off with a bit of antenna gain and no amplifier.


Consider this as one antenna that can be mounted on a J pole.
http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/...v_Antenna.html


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tshaff09* /forum/post/17880093
> 
> 
> What is inter-modualtion, having signals directly hit the distribution unit?


 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodulation


----------



## tshaff09

ugh... so this distribution amp was not worth it at all... yea. $45 bucks shot

It got slightly better when I pulled the attenuator out. But still missising channels and get break up. Cabling is neater and not falling apart


----------



## systems2000

I'm having much better luck with the CM3414 distribution amp that I recently purchased to replace my Trunkline 20-TDA25 distribution amp. It has also allowed me to eliminate a splitter and an inter-connect cable.


----------



## tshaff09

I need the eight outputs. I cobbled my 2 4-way splitters back together on a wood block. Hopefully more sturdy now. All my channels are back


----------



## systems2000

Channel Master has an eight port DA. It's the 3018 (or sometimes known as the CM3018).


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/17890297
> 
> 
> Channel Master has an eight port DA. It's the 3018 (or sometimes known as the CM3018).



Now known as the CM3418.

http://www.channelmaster.com/product...ID=75&catID=40


----------



## tshaff09

Yeah, that's the model I was trying....


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/17841673
> 
> 
> Just purchased a new Denon AVR-3310, which has HD Radio. Looks like I will be buying an outdoor FM antenna. No more room left on the top of the tower with the Funke High Bander, and a stacked array of 91XG's.
> 
> 
> Unless:
> 
> 
> 1) Their is some forgiveness with Funke HighBander's, as to my knowledge they only receive Ch. 7 - 11, whern FM is between Ch. 6 - 7.
> 
> 2) I will have to crawl back up on the tower and disable the FM trap feature on the Channel Master Pre-Amp.
> 
> 
> Any thoughts?



FM is roughly 88-108 MHz, whereas Ch7 starts at 174 MHz...not even close....

But any chunk of metal is going to pickup "something"....go ahead and try it...

Do you really "need" a rotatable FM antenna???? If not, mount it lower on the mast....


You might also have success with one of the better Indoor (or Outdoor) DIY antennas:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=17814917


----------



## holl_ands

Adding a Distribution Amp to a Preamp'd setup is tricky....

You probably need to insert a Variable RF Attenuator PRIOR

to the Distro Amp and then tweak for best performance.


You are trying to find the point at which you have the widest

SFDR (Spurious Free Dynamic Range):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6163454


----------



## Ennui

Yesterday, I installed my new YA1713 below my HD9095P. Works very well for LA stations:


Now have NBC-4 4.1,2,4; KABC 7.1,2,3; KCAL 9.1; KTTV 11.1; KCOP 13.1. Had KCBS 2.1 and KTLA 5 before, of course.


I am in West San Marcos at 615 feet ASL.


The HD9095P had a connection for a VHF antenna built into the feed box. Made it very easy to use the existing feedline and preamp AP8275.


You will note I modified the mounting so the reflector end would not hang over the edge of the roof. We have lots of birds that like high places


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/17892003
> 
> 
> Now known as the CM3418.



My mistake. I was actually trying to refer to the 3418.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/17893168
> 
> 
> Adding a Distribution Amp to a Preamp'd setup is tricky....



In my situation, I have about 80 to 100' of coax, two ground blocks, and the PI between the pre-amp and the 3414.


----------



## scottmo2020

I have a similar situation to above where I am trying to get VHF 8 and VHF 12 from about 58 miles. Most of the time I get at least 90% signal on my meter but frequent dropouts. It is the Wineguard VHF 7-13 antenna with Wineguard AP8700 preamp. Currently it is mounted on a 5 foot pole on top of an old dish mount with the garage roof behind it. I am thinking about moving it and hopefully get a better quality signal.


First, I am thinking about mounting it under my CM4228, but will I be too close to either the CM antenna or the roof? My other option is to move it up to the peak of the roof on a tripod. You can see the garage roof sligtly lower where I am thinking of mounting the tripod, but I'd rather not if I can get away with putting it under the CM. Pics are attached.


Thanks!

Scott


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scottmo2020* /forum/post/17894642
> 
> 
> I have a similar situation to above where I am trying to get VHF 8 and VHF 12 from about 58 miles. Most of the time I get at least 90% signal on my meter but frequent dropouts. It is the Wineguard VHF 7-13 antenna with Wineguard AP8700 preamp. Currently it is mounted on a 5 foot pole on top of an old dish mount with the garage roof behind it. I am thinking about moving it and hopefully get a better quality signal.
> 
> 
> First, I am thinking about mounting it under my CM4228, but will I be too close to either the CM antenna or the roof? My other option is to move it up to the peak of the roof on a tripod. You can see the garage roof sligtly lower where I am thinking of mounting the tripod, but I'd rather not if I can get away with putting it under the CM. Pics are attached.
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Scott



I would certainly give it a try. I do not think the VHF antenna would be affected and doubt if the UHF antenna would be affected. (I am assuming the roof structure is wooden.)


----------



## davidon1138

Just picked up a AC 1843 antenna. The thing is a lot bigger than I thought. Is it possible to spray paint everything to make it less of an eye sore or will this effect function? I used to have direcTV and did spray paint the dish with no problems.


----------



## workingmantom

I need some help choosing an antenna. I would like to receive ABC which I haven't received OTA for 4 years. I currently use two CM4221's, one pointed between 123* and 155* magnetic to receive CBS, FOX and NBC. The other is pointed at 334* to receive KICU, although KICU shows up as an analog channel.

I saw a Winegard HD7697P on sale and was wondering if this would be sufficient for my needs. I do not want to use a rotor, is this antenna able to receive a signal from the back to eliminate the first 4221?


----------



## ngarrang

I don't use a rotor. I have two antennas running into a combiner and get all but one station from everything available in Dayton and Cincinnati. I am smack in the middle of the two markets. A DB8 pointing south, a DB4 pointing north.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *workingmantom* /forum/post/17897445
> 
> 
> I need some help choosing an antenna. I would like to receive ABC which I haven't received OTA for 4 years. I currently use two CM4221's, one pointed between 123* and 155* magnetic to receive CBS, FOX and NBC. The other is pointed at 334* to receive KICU, although KICU shows up as an analog channel.
> 
> I saw a Winegard HD7697P on sale and was wondering if this would be sufficient for my needs. I do not want to use a rotor, is this antenna able to receive a signal from the back to eliminate the first 4221?



I do not think you will get a useable signal off the back of the 7697. You will see the front-back rating is pretty high.


If you can, I would add a VHF antenna to what you have to get ABC.


The one I installed was about $50 from Solid Signal.


----------



## paris_tn

Keeper, Lafayette, Electronics has a channel 11 antenna that is 10 element cut for ch 11. I think the cost is around 36.00. Here are the specs on it. They only have 1 left and maybe about 3 left for channel 10.


10y11s

http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/cutchannel.pdf 





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *keeper* /forum/post/17841120
> 
> 
> Hey guys- I have a question. I am trying to get a channel 11 and 13 from about 58 miles away at very good elevation. I started with the Y5-7-13 antenna craft but am getting some dropouts eventhough strength on my dish meter is at around 93. Thinking of getting the Y10-7-13. I am thinking that I have some multipath problems because the signal will drop down to 70ish for a few seconds before returning to 90+. Anyway how much of an improvement is the Y10 over the Y5. And is the Y10 more directional? Thanks


----------



## paris_tn

An expensive uhf antenna called Fracarro 6HD. This thing needs to flat perform for that price.

http://www.skyvision.com/store/mi1500209.html


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *workingmantom* /forum/post/17897445
> 
> 
> I need some help choosing an antenna. I would like to receive ABC which I haven't received OTA for 4 years.



Your ABC is KGO on channel 7 with a noise margin of -10.8 db. Theoretically, to receive it you would need an antenna with 14 db gain and a preamp with a noise figure of 3 db. 14 db gain would take a stack of 4 VHF high band off-the-shelf antennas.


But, don't go out and build such an antenna without very careful design. Your NBC is on channel 8 and 67.8 db stronger. You could reduce that to about 30 db using high F/B ratio antennas and stagger stacking. If you also did a critical horizontal space of 80" and aimed the antennas to minimize the interference you'd have a 50/50 chance of success when the weather conditions are favorable.


I'd get a used Dish network receiver and subscribe to All American Direct. You'd get KGO for a monthly fee of $3.99 per month.

https://www.mydistantnetworks.com/faq.php


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17903524
> 
> 
> Your ABC is KGO on channel 7 with a noise margin of -10.8 db. Theoretically, to receive it you would need an antenna with 14 db gain and a preamp with a noise figure of 3 db. 14 db gain would take a stack of 4 VHF high band off-the-shelf antennas.
> 
> 
> But, don't go out and build such an antenna without very careful design. Your NBC is on channel 8 and 67.8 db stronger. You could reduce that to about 30 db using high F/B ratio antennas and stagger stacking. If you also did a critical horizontal space of 80" and aimed the antennas to minimize the interference you'd have a 50/50 chance of success when the weather conditions are favorable.
> 
> 
> I'd get a used Dish network receiver and subscribe to All American Direct. You'd get KGO for a monthly fee of $3.99 per month.
> 
> https://www.mydistantnetworks.com/faq.php



The Winegard 1713 has a 9.1 dBd (dipole reference) rating or 11.3 dbi (isotropic) for Channel 7 and a F-B rating of 10.5 db. The chances of reception should be good with a low noise preamp for the coax run even if there is a strong signal 10 MHz away off the back. If it is a problem, a High Q trap could be introduced. Do you agree?


----------



## workingmantom

Thanks for the feedback, I'll have to do a little more research on the subject. Tom


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/17903789
> 
> 
> The Winegard 1713 has a 9.1 dBd (dipole reference) rating or 11.3 dbi (isotropic) for Channel 7 and a F-B rating of 10.5 db. The chances of reception should be good with a low noise preamp for the coax run even if there is a strong signal 10 MHz away off the back. If it is a problem, a High Q trap could be introduced. Do you agree?



A high Q trap won't help. You'd need a channel 7 bandpass filter or a channel 8 elimination filter.


The old high Q traps worked OK for analog because a majority of the power was centered around the visual carrier. A DTV signal is a full 5.5 mhz wide. A high Q trap doesn't remove enough of the DTV signal.


The next problem is the loss of the filter adds to the noise figure. To get back to 3 db of system noise figure, you'd have to use a GASFET preamp with a noise figure of about 1 db.


A single YA1713 doesn't have enough gain. The antenna gain minus the noise figure of the preamp added to the NM must add to a number higher than zero.


----------



## holl_ands

Spray away....except where there are electrical connections.

Some spray paint may be better for aluminum than others????


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17906658
> 
> 
> A high Q trap won't help. You'd need a channel 7 bandpass filter or a channel 8 elimination filter.
> 
> 
> The old high Q traps worked OK for analog because a majority of the power was centered around the visual carrier. A DTV signal is a full 5.5 mhz wide. A high Q trap doesn't remove enough of the DTV signal.
> 
> 
> The next problem is the loss of the filter adds to the noise figure. To get back to 3 db of system noise figure, you'd have to use a GASFET preamp with a noise figure of about 1 db.
> 
> 
> A single YA1713 doesn't have enough gain. The antenna gain minus the noise figure of the preamp added to the NM must add to a number higher than zero.



A second YA1713 perfectly matched to the first would only add 3db of signal at the expense of increased sharpness of orientation. In my experience, it is difficult to get the 3 db.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scottmo2020* /forum/post/17894642
> 
> 
> ...First, I am thinking about mounting it under my CM4228, but will I be too close to either the CM antenna or the roof?...



The roof shouldn't affect it, unless you have foil-backed radiant barrier roof decking (visible from the attic, on the underside of the roof decking).


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *davidon1138* /forum/post/17895787
> 
> 
> ... Is it possible to spray paint everything to make it less of an eye sore or will this effect function?



I have spray painted several OTA antennas, with no measurable affect on signal strength or reception.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *workingmantom* /forum/post/17906434
> 
> 
> Thanks for the feedback, I'll have to do a little more research on the subject. Tom



I note on the TVfool data, you have a height agl of 20 feet. Why don't you try 40 feet to see what effect that might have on the ABC strength.


----------



## paris_tn

A friend is going to try a 12 footer and extended more than my 91xgs. He is going to stack two of these horizontal and try them out. Two 6 ft boom sections. The boom is joined in the middle. The antenna has 32 directors and the boom is built on square 3/4 by 3/4 aluminum.

http://webpages.charter.net/rscarbro/Superxg.jpg 

http://webpages.charter.net/rscarbro/Superxg3.jpg 

http://webpages.charter.net/rscarbro/Superxg5.jpg 


Untill the weather gets warmer, i am trying extensions on mine and then will try a 4 stack when the weather warms up.

http://webpages.charter.net/rscarbro/91stackextend.jpg 

http://webpages.charter.net/rscarbro/91stackextend1.jpg


----------



## AikenGhoti

Hey guys,


I'm in the greater Seattle area, about 20 miles northeast of Seattle proper. I'm trying, and only somewhat succeeding, to get a PBS digital station (KBTC-DT) from Tacoma, which is south of Seattle. They show some programming the Seattle PBS station doesn't. Comcast only carries one of their four channels, and in SD only.


Here's the specific tvfool report for the terrain between me and its transmitter:

http://www.tvfool.com/modeling/?id=b...f&t=ALLTV&n=18 


In short, I'm 37 miles and two edges northeast of the 45kW transmitter. Luckily, I'm not hugely below the edges, but it's still not line-of-sight. What you can't easily see there is that I'm on a slope that faces southeast, so at least trees aren't a problem.


Here's the rest of the report, if it's useful:

http://www.tvfool.com/modeling/?id=b32b9936644f4f 


Right now, I've got what I think is probably a pretty mediocre 8' directional antenna I got from Radio Shack back in the 90's. I think it's a U-100, but I don't remember. It's fine for Seattle stuff, but this is trickier, with two edges between me and KBTC's transmitter. With the tuner in my S3 TiVo, which seems to be decent, I can get 50-60% at best, but when atmospheric conditions suck (remember, this is Seattle), I can't do better than 30% or so, which isn't enough for a digital lock.


Thus, after doing some research, I have a Winegard HD8200P on its way this week and will be installing it this coming weekend. From what I've read, it should have significantly higher gain in the neighborhood of the channel I'm after, without being overly directional and dropping out the other stations I receive. Given the context, I know I can't expect perfect and consistent reception on the iffy channel, but I'm pretty sure this hardware will improve matters.

*So, after all of that, here's the actual question:* What sort of amp would get me the best results, given the specific antenna I'm installing, and the fact that I'm _mostly_ trying to get (real) channel 27? The other channels are either present on cable, or ridiculously easy to receive.


The only amp I have on hand is a Channel Plus DA-520A amp that does +20dB (non-adjustable) on 54-1000MHz. I don't know if that's a decent amp, and I don't know if it's at all appropriate for the job. If it is, then great, but if not, I'm quite open to getting something more appropriate.


I should also mention that it'd be nice to get an amp with multiple outputs, since I'm going to be sending the signal to at least two more locations in the house after I do the antenna upgrade. I gather a distribution amp is (often?) better than a single-out amp followed by a splitter.


Anyway, I like to think I'm not an idiot, but OTA is an area I've never done much research on, so I could really use some advice. Even advice not directly responding to my question is quite welcome. Even if it's to tell me I've made all of the wrong assumptions. I do that sometimes. Sigh.










Thanks...


----------



## ProjectSHO89

I'm curious why you selected the 8200 since you have no low-VHF stations in your area. The 8200 has a lot of excess metal to be hanging in the air when isn't needed.


----------



## arxaw

The Winegard HD8200 has a ton of very long elements designed for LOW-VHF band, which is not being used in your area for DTV. If you can stop the delivery, a Winegard HD7698P would be a much better choice for KBTC.

8200U:










7698P:










The strength of your nearby stations may overload a mast-mounted amp (preamp), which would negatively affect reception of distant stations.


According to the FCC site, KBTC has a construction permit to increase power from 45kW to 100kW. If you're currently receiving it intermittently, the power increase may be enough to gain reliable 24/7 reception for you with existing equipment. Contact the station to see if/when the power increase will be completed.


Or, check your local info & reception thread for possible information on KBTC's upgrade.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=45 



.


----------



## Digital Rules

I agree that the 7698 is a much better choice. If you can't send back the 8200, you will need to address possbile FM issues when you amplify it. I would order the inexpensive HLSJ & insert it before the distribution amp. Connect the _HI_ output of the HLSJ to the input of the amp & termiante the _LO_ output.


I'm not familiar with the amp you have now, but I would try it first since you already have it. I personally like the Channel Master 34xx series, because of their high input tolerance.


I agree with Arxaw that a mast mounted pre-amp may overload. Even the highly tolerant HDP-269 would be borderline with the number of local stations you are dealing with. I've only had good results using the HDP-269 with UHF _only_ in strong signal areas. It doesn't tolerate strong VHF well.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> The only amp I have on hand is a Channel Plus DA-520A amp that does +20dB (non-adjustable) on 54-1000MHz. I don't know if that's a decent amp, and I don't know if it's at all appropriate for the job. If it is, then great, but if not, I'm quite open to getting something more appropriate.



I did a quick look and I couldn't find a Noise Figure (NF) for your DA. I did find the following:
Provides up to 20dB gain to RF signal
Bi-directional capabilities provides compatibility with interactive CATV set-top boxes
54MHz-1GHz forward path and 5MHz-40MHz reverse path
High power, low noise, low distortion and continuous coverage from 40MHz-1GHz
Amplifies all RF bands: VHF, low and high FM and four CATV bands
Includes power supply

First, I'd try using a 4-way or an unbalanced 3-way (-3.5, -7.0, -7.0) by itself. If that doesn't work, I'd look at something with less gain (maybe a CM-3414 - a low output pre-amp may also be a good bet). How long are your cable runs (outlets and antenna)?


You want to try to maintain a low NF and a zero gain output (ie. 10 in, 10 out).


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AikenGhoti* /forum/post/17948249
> 
> 
> In short, I'm 37 miles and two edges northeast of the 45kW transmitter. Luckily, I'm not hugely below the edges, but it's still not line-of-sight. What you can't easily see there is that I'm on a slope that faces southeast, so at least trees aren't a problem.
> 
> 
> Here's the rest of the report, if it's useful:
> http://www.tvfool.com/modeling/?id=b32b9936644f4f
> 
> 
> Right now, I've got what I think is probably a pretty mediocre 8' directional antenna I got from Radio Shack back in the 90's. I think it's a U-100, but I don't remember. It's fine for Seattle stuff, but this is trickier, with two edges between me and KBTC's transmitter. With the tuner in my S3 TiVo, which seems to be decent, I can get 50-60% at best, but when atmospheric conditions suck (remember, this is Seattle), I can't do better than 30% or so, which isn't enough for a digital lock.
> 
> 
> Thus, after doing some research, I have a Winegard HD8200P on its way this week and will be installing it this coming weekend. From what I've read, it should have significantly higher gain in the neighborhood of the channel I'm after, without being overly directional and dropping out the other stations I receive. Given the context, I know I can't expect perfect and consistent reception on the iffy channel, but I'm pretty sure this hardware will improve matters.
> 
> *So, after all of that, here's the actual question:* What sort of amp would get me the best results, given the specific antenna I'm installing, and the fact that I'm _mostly_ trying to get (real) channel 27? The other channels are either present on cable, or ridiculously easy to receive.
> 
> 
> The only amp I have on hand is a Channel Plus DA-520A amp that does +20dB (non-adjustable) on 54-1000MHz. I don't know if that's a decent amp, and I don't know if it's at all appropriate for the job. If it is, then great, but if not, I'm quite open to getting something more appropriate.
> 
> 
> I should also mention that it'd be nice to get an amp with multiple outputs, since I'm going to be sending the signal to at least two more locations in the house after I do the antenna upgrade. I gather a distribution amp is (often?) better than a single-out amp followed by a splitter.
> 
> 
> Anyway, I like to think I'm not an idiot, but OTA is an area I've never done much research on, so I could really use some advice. Even advice not directly responding to my question is quite welcome. Even if it's to tell me I've made all of the wrong assumptions. I do that sometimes. Sigh.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks...



The 52 dB stronger Ch25 will make it difficult to receive Ch27. [And that is an ESTIMATE!]

CECB specs (derived from ATSC A/74 "Receiver Recommendations") said that

an undesired Next Adjacent signal should be no more than 44 dB stronger than desired:
http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/DTVmanufacturers.pdf 


Your antenna will need to be steered to suppress Ch25 without causing "too much"

degradation to the already very weak Ch27. The amount of suppression should be

MORE than the 8 dB difference found in non-fading bench tests....say 20 dB total

to continue protection when the weaker signal undergoes multipath fading....

This will be VERY DIFFICULT to do, just using an antenna....


You have several very strong local stations that can generate intermod noise on top of

weak stations when they pass through a Preamp, Distribution Amp...or even your Tuner.

A Preamp (even the high overload W-G HDP-269) may or may not help....probably not...

You could try a low gain Distro Amp (with a Variable RF Attenuator) to see if it helps or hurts....

You might get lucky.....or Murphy's Law will prevail.....


After trying all of the above, you might consider a separate antenna aimed at Ch27, with

the signal passed through a Single Channel Bandpass Filter (or less precise Ch27 JoinTenna)

before going through a low-gain Preamp (HDP-269) or even that Distro Amp prior to being

combined into the downlead coax.....this suppresses Ch25 prior to going through the Ch27 amp.


All things being equal, there is NO DIFFERENCE between a Distro Amp with an INTERNAL splitter

and a separate Preamp/Amp with an EXTERNAL splitter. Of course a Distro Amp with unknown

(or unbelievable) Noise Figure specs may not be "equal".....

And of course a 2-way splitter has 4 dB less loss than a 4-way splitter....


----------



## holl_ands

Linear Corp (manufacturer) website doesn't have NF specs or a manual for the 20 dB Gain DA-520A:
http://www.linearcorp.com/audio_vide...php#amplifiers 


However, they do cite 5.5 dB NF in the Manual for the very similar 18 dB Gain DA-500A:
http://www.linearcorp.com/pdf/manuals/DA-500A.pdf 

Both of these amps are two-way capable for CABLE applications, optimized for a large number of

very strong signals.....and not optimized for wide dynamic range OTA TV.


BTW: These are HIGH GAIN amps and hence will be INCOMPATIBLE with strong input signals

due to generation of intermod noise products all across the weak signals.....


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/17952186
> 
> 
> Your antenna will need to be steered to suppress Ch25 without causing "too much" degradation to the already very weak Ch27. The amount of suppression should be MORE than the 8 dB difference found in non-fading bench tests....say 20 dB total to continue protection when the weaker signal undergoes multipath fading...This will be VERY DIFFICULT to do, just using an antenna....



Here's how to do it. http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html 


Use two identical UHF antennas, stack them 31" apart. (22 degrees channel 26) Feed them in phase.


----------



## AikenGhoti

Wow, lots of feedback. I think I'll roll all of my responses into one post:


-----



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/17948508
> 
> 
> I'm curious why you selected the 8200 since you have no low-VHF stations in your area. The 8200 has a lot of excess metal to be hanging in the air when isn't needed.



Mainly because information overload got in the way, apparently. It's pretty hard to come at this stuff from a position of near-zero knowledge. I mainly looked for something that, at least according to mathematical models, got the best reception across the entire range. It didn't occur to me to see if I actually needed the whole range, alas.


Given the other responses, I'm thinking I should have done something I absolutely hate other people doing, which would have been to come here and say, "I know nothing, someone tell me what to do!"







Oh, well.


-----



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/17948526
> 
> 
> The Winegard HD8200 has a ton of very long elements designed for LOW-VHF band, which is not being used in your area for DTV. If you can stop the delivery, a Winegard HD7698P would be a much better choice for KBTC.



Nope. I don't have the option to stop delivery at this point.


I obviously haven't had the opportunity to assemble one yet, but unless I'm crazy, it sure looks to me like the 8200 is just be a 7698 with extra stuff bolted on the back half. If so, perhaps I could get away without the extra elements...? I might need a counterweight of some sort, since it'll throw off the center of mass, but looking at the two images, the pivot point seems to be in the same place, so maybe not.


I got a reasonably good price on the 8200, so if I need to discard part of it, it's not a huge loss.


-----



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/17949211
> 
> 
> I agree that the 7698 is a much better choice. If you can't send back the 8200, you will need to address possbile FM issues when you amplify it. I would order the inexpensive HLSJ & insert it before the distribution amp. Connect the _HI_ output of the HLSJ to the input of the amp & termiante the _LO_ output.



Good idea. I'll do that.


-----



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/17949462
> 
> 
> First, I'd try using a 4-way or an unbalanced 3-way (-3.5, -7.0, -7.0) by itself. If that doesn't work, I'd look at something with less gain (maybe a CM-3414 - a low output pre-amp may also be a good bet). How long are your cable runs (outlets and antenna)?



I suppose once I get a better antenna, I might not need amplification, so that's a good point.


The cable run I have right now is about 40', I think. Measuring right now isn't an easy option, so I'm going to have to leave it as a guesstimate. The additional runs will be similar.


-----



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/17952186
> 
> 
> After trying all of the above, you might consider a separate antenna aimed at Ch27, with the signal passed through a Single Channel Bandpass Filter (or less precise Ch27 JoinTenna) before going through a low-gain Preamp (HDP-269) or even that Distro Amp prior to being combined into the downlead coax.....this suppresses Ch25 prior to going through the Ch27 amp.



That's an option. As mentioned, I will still have the original RS antenna on hand, and it's more than adequate for the other locals. I have no problem with using the new antenna for just 27.



> Quote:
> All things being equal, there is NO DIFFERENCE between a Distro Amp with an INTERNAL splitter
> 
> and a separate Preamp/Amp with an EXTERNAL splitter.



I was just thinking in terms of needing fewer connections along the path. I don't know about OTA, but I assume it's similar to cable tv, wherein I find the signal rapidly degrades when you have a lot of extra cruft along the line.



> Quote:
> BTW: These are HIGH GAIN amps and hence will be INCOMPATIBLE with strong input signals
> 
> due to generation of intermod noise products all across the weak signals.....



Yeah, I had a feeling the gain was too high on the one I have.


-----



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17953696
> 
> 
> Here's how to do it. http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html
> 
> 
> Use two identical UHF antennas, stack them 31" apart. (22 degrees channel 26) Feed them in phase.



Ooo, that's cool voodoo. I've seen arrangements like that before and not understood why they were the way they were. Makes more sense now. Given the apparently-coming increase in transmitter power, I hope I won't need to do this, but it's pretty cool to know it can be done.


-----


Thanks to all for the information. It's not falling on deaf ears. Very useful. I'm going to be a numbskull for a while yet, but this was a good first day at school.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AikenGhoti* /forum/post/17955032
> 
> 
> ...I obviously haven't had the opportunity to assemble one yet, but unless I'm crazy, it sure looks to me like the 8200 is just be a 7698 with extra stuff bolted on the back half.



In terms of gain for the channels being used in your area, they are about the same. I don't think it would be a good idea to modify it, but others with much more knowledge about such things will hopefully offer their thoughts on doing that.


----------



## Rando01

Now thats an antenna........


----------



## ngarrang

Wow! So...what the theoretical gain on that monster?


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paris_tn* /forum/post/17941442
> 
> 
> A friend is going to try a 12 footer and extended more than my 91xgs. He is going to stack two of these horizontal and try them out. Two 6 ft boom sections. The boom is joined in the middle. The antenna has 32 directors and the boom is built on square 3/4 by 3/4 aluminum.
> 
> http://webpages.charter.net/rscarbro/Superxg.jpg
> 
> http://webpages.charter.net/rscarbro/Superxg3.jpg
> 
> http://webpages.charter.net/rscarbro/Superxg5.jpg
> 
> 
> Untill the weather gets warmer, i am trying extensions on mine and then will try a 4 stack when the weather warms up.
> 
> http://webpages.charter.net/rscarbro/91stackextend.jpg
> 
> http://webpages.charter.net/rscarbro/91stackextend1.jpg



Hey Paris you're like 20 miles from me. Exactly what do you get with that thing?


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ngarrang* /forum/post/17956400
> 
> 
> Wow! So...what the theoretical gain on that monster?



About 17.5 dBd


----------



## holl_ands

Antennas that cover Lo-VHF and Hi-VHF are computer designed as a SYSTEM.

Hacking off the larger elements could result in huge Gain and/or SWR holes in the response.


----------



## holl_ands

Only when the narrow beamwidth is actually smack on target.

Any sort of wind is gonna whip it back and forth....until it bends/breaks....

Anyone care to model how much gain is lost in that saggy boom....

and how much more is lost as the boom is bend sideways by the wind....


----------



## Bruce Watson

I've been looking all over for a wall plate to use to run my rotor control cable through the outside wall of my TV room. Need to get that cable up to the roof and the antenna rotor somehow, yes? So at some point it has to breach the wall and come in the house. There are thousands of plates to use for coax, telephone, etc. But I don't find anything specifically for rotor wire.


It would be nice to find a connector / wall plate designed just for this. Anyone have any pointers? Else, I'm thinking that using an RJ-11 connector should work just fine. I'm a little worried that it can't handle the power however. Anyone have any opinions, thoughts, suggestions?


Edit: Ah, yes, almost forgot. Four or more conductors.


----------



## paris_tn

He made 3 more for a 4 stack going up soon. His has no sag. Very strong and only two boom sections. In the picture you can see a little sag in his because he did not tighten up the two booms together. He held them up for a picture and did not even tighten things up on the two booms. They was in two pieces.


As far as gain on his 12 footer, not sure and who knows if it will be as good as a stock 91xg or extended. I think an extended 91xg is just over 10 ft. The entended 91xg's with 4 boom sections has more sag than his 12 footer, with 2 6ft sections. He has a 100ft tower they are going up on. BCF68, the good info over at antenna hacks mentions maybe 1.5db gain on the extended 91xg and test comming soon. I think i have read in here where some liked the extensions and some did not and could not tell any difference. So it will be interesting to see when antenna hacks does test to see if it is any helpful or not.


I try to keep an open mind on if they are better or not. I am running a 4 way combiner and only two antennas, so i figure i have a lil more loss than i should. I plan to put two more up for a 4 stack as it gets warmer but to get up over the trees i am deciding to get another tower and go on up 80 ft to get over the trees. The trees do not bother me as bad going north and up to Cape Mo, so i do better up that way. The day my extensions was put on Cape(Kbsi) and Harrisburg, IL(Wsil) was comming in very strong during the day. They are both right at 125 miles from me, from my house to the towers. Full scale in the afternoon. Most of the time during the day they will not come in. The next two nights(weekend), Cincinnati, OH, Ft Wayne, IN, Indianapolis, Dayton, Louisville, Lexington, Ky was flat pegging me all night long. I have about 35 or 40 stations that came in and most lasted 3 or 4 hours. It was skip.


I had been noticing late at night and early in the morn, where Louisville, KY and about 3 or 4 stations up there was ususlly in. The one i want to watch i think is called Wave 3 and it comes in the worse. The one on ch 41 seems to beat them all. That is just over 250 miles but is this just a fluke? Maybe it is and i want to give them a long test because with this rain moved in i am getting the same stations i always did and not going anymore than 75 miles. In bad weather. I want to get to a normal day and see. I have a friend in Murray & Mayfield and one of them picks up a station in St Louis and i have only done that once as where he watches St Louis on his 91xg's often. I think once i got Kmov but other morning i did watch Ksdk awhile.


BCF68, my goal was try to reach out 100 to 125 miles at night(and hold fade down) on a regular night and hold the station. This gives me EVille(118 miles), Nash(85 miles) area and up in Cape and Harrisburg does good. Going south, i am right in the trees. Most of the time i can not even get pbs station in Lex, TN 45 miles from me. I have not checked since the extensions was put on. If anything and it is way to early to pass judgement on my extensions but i seems the longer antennas are holding better and less fade but i have had everything comming in or not much at all with weather extremes. Other night i was picking up some Cookville station and some station with xx on the end and said Crossville, Knoxville.


It is possible i might take mine down soon, while i am having my 4 stack, stacking bar being made and if i do, the friend might stick one of his 12 footers or a 2 stack of his 12 footers to see how they work for a week or so. I will say this, it is amazing to pick up Louisville and wonder, why no Lexington, Ky comming in and only Louisville? Then turn the antennas just a little and then you see Lexington pop in. holl_ands is right on with the narrow beam width and 4 should be even more so.


BCF, i am about limited to Jackson going south and it booms in but i want to get up over the trees and try south. I hardly turn down that way as my north and even east does so much better.


----------



## systems2000

Bruce Watson,


An old telephone plug will do the job.


----------



## arxaw

Search for 4-prong phone plugs and 4-prong phone jacks on eBay.


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bruce Watson* /forum/post/17959372
> 
> 
> I'm thinking that using an RJ-11 connector should work just fine.



I'd stay away from using a modular plug for two reason: current capacity and familiarity. Someone seeing it will "assume" it is a phone connector.


The idea of using an old style 4-prong phone plug is interesting. When I built our house (predivestiture) used circular plastic AMP connectors for speaker and rotor wiring disconnects.

http://www.tycoelectronics.com/catal...60,17685,17686


----------



## AikenGhoti




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/17958597
> 
> 
> Antennas that cover Lo-VHF and Hi-VHF are computer designed as a SYSTEM.
> 
> Hacking off the larger elements could result in huge Gain and/or SWR holes in the response.



Don't get me wrong. I didn't mean I'd hack off the elements. I mean the 8200 literally looks like a 7698 with an extra segment attached above the back end, upon which the long elements are attached.


If you look at the two images and disregard the fact that they're drawn with different line weights, it looks to me like every single part of the 7698 is present on the 8200, in exactly the same configuration. I think the 8200 really *is* a 7698 with another section tacked on the top, behind the folding portion. It sort of makes sense as a concept, because it'd cut down on manufacturing costs for Winegard.


But, no, if it's all one thing and not just a 7698 with an extra part, I certainly won't be cutting bits off of it. I'll either have to filter out low VHF or find someone who wants to buy it so I can get the 7698.


----------



## AikenGhoti

Okay, I went out and found some higher-resolution photos of the two antennae. I can see now that the differences in the back end are integral, not bolted on as I thought I was seeing.


Filter or sell, then.


----------



## AikenGhoti




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/17949211
> 
> 
> II would order the inexpensive HLSJ & insert it before the distribution amp. Connect the _HI_ output of the HLSJ to the input of the amp & termiante the _LO_ output.



Question: Do I need to split UHF out before the HLSJ and then combine it back in after? Or does the HLSJ pass UHF unmolested?


Edit: presumably using two UVSJ's .


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AikenGhoti* /forum/post/17962508
> 
> 
> ...does the HLSJ pass UHF unmolested



Not sure about all HLSJs, but Pico-Macom HLSJs do not attenuate any of the UHF frequencies in the US DTV band.


----------



## arxaw

Using 4-prong phone jack/plugs, there shouldn't be much chance of plugging the wrong thing into the jack. They're becoming harder to find and I suspect many younger people don't even know what they are for.


If 4-prong jacks/plugs are used, I would consider buying a couple of spares, in case one is needed in the future for a repair.


----------



## systems2000

For a 8200, you'd probably want to just use the HLSJ. If you didn't need the UHF, then a UVSJ would be appropriate (terminate the UHF side).


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/17962796
> 
> 
> Using 4-prong phone jack/plugs, there shouldn't be much chance of plugging the wrong thing into the jack. They're becoming harder to find and I suspect many younger people don't even know what they are for.



I guess I'm showing my knowledge or age (or both).


----------



## holl_ands

Different types of wall plates. "HDTV/HD15" takes a DE-15P plug:
http://www.parts-express.com/wall-pl...TOKEN=55387053 
http://www.cablestogo.com/product_list.asp?cat_id=2234 
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss?ur...+plate&x=0&y=0 


Just don't mistakenly plug a VGA monitor cable into it....


----------



## systems2000

Those are much more complex to wire up and not as likely to be as reliable. The telephone style is straight four wire and have screw or clip style terminals for the wires.


----------



## Ennui

I use a straight "feed-thru" tube I got somewhere many years ago. That way, I do not have to worry about bad splices.


----------



## Bruce Watson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/17961004
> 
> 
> Search for 4-prong phone plugs and 4-prong phone jacks on eBay.



Excellent. I snagged one of these wall plates locally. Seems perfect for the application. Thanks for the suggestion!


While I'm at it, any reason to not use dumb old phone wire (solid conductor) for the rotor control wire? I was leaning toward stranded wire when it occurred to me that this wire wasn't going to be moving much. It runs to the rotor motor, and that end doesn't rotate.


Also, what about grounding? The RG-6 quad-shield coax from the antenna itself is grounded to a nearby water line, and the antenna is above the rotor obviously. But... do I need to ground the rotor wire also? If so, what's the "accepted" way to do this?


----------



## Ennui

I am not sure how big your rotator motor is but phone wire won't carrry much current. I would use a proper 4 wire rotor lead. On mine, one of the wires is ground so I do not ground separately. I do have my antenna feed run through a ground coupling with a 4 foot copper ground rod into the ground.


FYI. YMMV


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bruce Watson* /forum/post/17972054
> 
> 
> Also, what about grounding? The RG-6 quad-shield coax from the antenna itself is grounded to a nearby water line, and the antenna is above the rotor obviously. But... do I need to ground the rotor wire also? If so, what's the "accepted" way to do this?



Once upon a time, the NEC required that antenna rotor wire be flat and that the outer two conductors had to be grounded. Thus, it had one more conductor than the circuitry required to operate the rotor. That requirement was eliminated long ago.


The antenna mast has to be grounded with 8 gauge aluminum, 10 gauge copper or 17 gauge copper clad steel wire, connected to the ground electrode system. Connecting it to a cold water pipe is technically in violation of the NEC, but lots of people do it anyway. Prohibition of the use of a cold water pipe for that purpose began with the 2002 code revision, but the reason for it was that since so many repairs were being done with plastic pipe, future repairs risked breaking the antenna mast's ground path. If it's your own house and all you care about is the safety factor introduced by grounding the mast, then you might as well ground it to a cold water pipe if that is most convenient to you.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I am not sure how big your rotator motor is but phone wire won't carrry much current.



Yeah, typical rotor wire is 20 gauge and solid copper telephone wire is 24 gauge. Plus its not UV resistant. Another option is low voltage outdoor 18 gauge wire sold at Lowes or Home Depot. IIRC it comes in 2, 4, 5 and 6 conductors.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/17972122
> 
> 
> I am not sure how big your rotator motor is but phone wire won't carrry much current. I would use a proper 4 wire rotor lead. On mine, one of the wires is ground so I do not ground separately. I do have my antenna feed run through a ground coupling with a 4 foot copper ground rod into the ground.



This separate ground rod should be bonded to the house electrical main ground, to prevent ground loop voltages.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/17974555
> 
> 
> This separate ground rod should be bonded to the house electrical main ground, to prevent ground loop voltages.



The house electrical is 100 feet away. On all my antennas in the past, I have never hooked to that ground. Where does the ground loop voltage come from?


----------



## systems2000

From the ground potential difference carried across the coax shield.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_(electricity )


In your case, you need ground blocks at both ends of the 100' coax.


Cold water pipe grounding is only an option for those who are connected to a water distribution system and must be continuous metal pipe from the grounding point to the main water entrance.


----------



## Bruce Watson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/17972333
> 
> 
> Once upon a time, the NEC required that antenna rotor wire be flat and that the outer two conductors had to be grounded. Thus, it had one more conductor than the circuitry required to operate the rotor. That requirement was eliminated long ago.
> 
> 
> The antenna mast has to be grounded with 8 gauge aluminum, 10 gauge copper or 17 gauge copper clad steel wire, connected to the ground electrode system. Connecting it to a cold water pipe is technically in violation of the NEC, but lots of people do it anyway. Prohibiition of the use of a cold water pipe for that purpose began with the 2002 code revision, but the reason for it was that since so many repairs were being done with plastic pipe, future repairs risked breaking the antenna mast's ground path. If it's your own house and all you care about is the safety factor introduced by grounding the mast, then you might as well ground it to a cold water pipe if that is most convenient to you.



Oh, interesting. Turns out I put the interior walls in myself in this area of the house. This particular water spigot feeds directly from the main water line coming into the house (it's like two feet away at this corner of the house). It's all copper from the spigot out to the street. But mainly I'm just piggy-backing on the existing wiring (and the grounding to the water spigot) that Time Warner did when I used to have cable.










Interesting too that code wants a copper or aluminum wire of pretty thick gauge, or a much thinner copper clad steel wire. Why would the steel wire be thinner? The only reason I can think is that it might act like a fuse and melt through when struck, and the steel would provide continuity should the copper (which will carry nearly all the power on the surface, yes? Because it's high voltage) melt. Or it's something entirely different?


Anyway, where does one find a suitable wire to use for antenna grounding? And do you attach to the antenna itself, or to the mast (on the antenna side of the rotor I'm guessing)?


This is more complicated than it looks. But if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.


----------



## Bruce Watson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/17972606
> 
> 
> Yeah, typical rotor wire is 20 gauge and solid copper telephone wire is 24 gauge. Plus its not UV resistant. Another option is low voltage outdoor 18 gauge wire sold at Lowes or Home Depot. IIRC it comes in 2, 4, 5 and 6 conductors.



Interesting. The wire that I used to use when this rotor was last in service (25 years ago?) was "real" rotor wire (at least that's what the guy who sold it to me at a ham-fest told me







). It worked fine for many years. I'd reuse it but it's really stiff and the insulation is cracking. But the conductors look to be closer to 26 gauge. Very small. Which is why I figured that phone cable should be fine.


But since I'm thinking of looking for a newer rotor, maybe I should go with a thicker rotor wire. I just couldn't find any that was 4 conductor in a convenient length (I don't want 1000 feet)... Hmm.... (sound of scratching head).


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/17975183
> 
> 
> From the ground potential difference carried across the coax shield.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_(electricity )
> 
> 
> In your case, you need ground blocks at both ends of the 100' coax.
> 
> 
> Cold water pipe grounding is only an option for those who are connected to a water distribution system and must be continuous metal pipe from the grounding point to the main water entrance.



When I said 100 feet, I meant from the point of my ground rod to the electrical box. From my ground rod, the RG6 goes up 45 feet to the preamp at the antenna and through the wall 4 feet to my TiVo.


----------



## AntAltMike

The mast ground wire can be stranded or solid, and uninsulated or insulated. You can get 10 gauge copper stranded by the foot at any home supply store. You are almost always better off using copper instead of aluminum because aluminum may react with whatever you ground it to.


The 17 gauge steel is acceptable because it is more survivable. Its job is to bleed off static electricity. No ground wire will withstand a direct lightning hit, but some will be adequate to shunt away the current from 110 or 220 line voltage that might come in contact with the coax.


The code says that it is the mast, not the antenna, that has to be grounded. It also says that the downleads must be grounded with insulated copper wire approximately equal in current carrying capacity to the outer conductor itself. Last I knew, cable TV companies commonly used 12 gauge solid, insulated copper wire for that purpose. I use 10 gauge solid insulated copper, but for some reason, home supply stores never stock that product. If you want it, you'll probably have to get it from an electrical supply house, but realistically, you'll likely only need a few feet of it as long as you pick a penetration point that is near a suitable ground.


Not that anyone but the mattress tag police will care, but any supplementary ground rod used in conjunction with the mast grounding has to be 8 feet long and 1/2" in diameter.


300ohm's recommendation of 18 gauge low voltage wire seems like a practical solution for the rotor controller. You can probably find the old fashioned "real", flat rotor wire in 50 and 100 foot lengths.


----------



## AntAltMike

From Summit Source: 75' 3 conductor flat rotor wire: $5.89
http://www.summitsource.com/philips-...22-p-8188.html 


I think all flat rotor wire is 20 gauge.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/17975430
> 
> 
> When I said 100 feet, I meant from the point of my ground rod to the electrical box. From my ground rod, the RG6 goes up 45 feet to the preamp at the antenna and through the wall 4 feet to my TiVo.



OK. I was thinking you had a free standing tower that was 100' from the house.


----------



## systems2000

Bruce Watson


> Quote:
> Anyway, where does one find a suitable wire to use for antenna grounding? And do you attach to the antenna itself, or to the mast (on the antenna side of the rotor I'm guessing)?



I use aluminum lugs, with self-tapping hex head screws, for all my tower and satellite pole installations.

http://www.skywalker.com/itemdisplay.aspx?item=226211 


Don't forget to not exceed an 8" bend radius on the ground wire.


----------



## AikenGhoti

Well, on the bright side, even with the issues already raised, there is apparently such a quality difference between my old Radio Shack model and the HD8200P (gee, big surprise) that I went straight from a 51% signal to a pretty solid 70% signal just by swapping the cable over from the old to the new. I made absolutely no other change, since the HLSJ is not here yet. Not bad.










It remains to be seen what will happen when atmospheric conditions turn to what gave me a 20-30% signal on the old antenna, but I'm at least a little hopeful. Perhaps I can at least survive more borderline conditions. I seem to need >50% for a decent stream. With the additional changes that are yet to come, and better than just a quick eyeball aiming, I hope for better still.


Oh, and it's funny... I ran into every single issue I've ever seen mentioned about the 8200:


- box arrived with all of the staples broken open

- poor packing (or lack thereof) resulted in several bent elements

- some of the instructions were pretty unclear

- had to cut some flash off of the bolt hole at the join between front and back


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/17976286
> 
> 
> ... Last I knew, cable TV companies commonly used 12 gauge solid, insulated copper wire for that purpose.



In our area, that's what coxcable uses. AT&T uses #10 gauge solid copper insulated wire for their grounds here.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/17976975
> 
> 
> OK. I was thinking you had a free standing tower that was 100' from the house.



Thanks. This is my antenna system.


----------



## Rando01

Thats a nice setup..


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> 300ohm's recommendation of 18 gauge low voltage wire seems like a practical solution for the rotor controller. You can probably find the old fashioned "real", flat rotor wire in 50 and 100 foot lengths.



Finding the 5 conductor stuff locally for my old Alliance rotor seems to be practically impossible, so thats why I looked for alternatives. Actually, I think that outdoor 18 gauge stuff is used for wiring up automatic lawn sprinkler systems.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Rando01* /forum/post/17982460
> 
> 
> Thats a nice setup..



Thanks. It is a Winegard HD9095P UHF on top of a modified mount Winegard 1713 High VHF. I have a Winegard AP8275 preamp. The HD9095P has an input connector for a VHF antenna so adding the 1713 was easy as I did not have to change or move the amp connections.


The rotor is a Yaesu 450XL that is overkill for this but it was twisting a 3 element full size 20 meter beam earlier at this location.


----------



## pkx

Pardon the cross-post, a also posted this in the SF Bay Area OTA thread. I'll include some more information here for those not familiar with the area.


I'm hoping others can help me choose an antenna.


I'm moving into a 2nd story townhouse in Milpitas where the living room's windows face south and east. I have a porch outside the south facing window. *Most of the channels are broadcast from Sutro Tower in San Francisco, 37 miles from me, in the northwest direction.*


I bought a small Winegard SS-3000 inside powered antenna and pointed it toward Sutro (which would be at the wall which has another townhouse on the other side of it). Reception was poor (quality level 50ish for most channels, couldn't get ABC (7.1) it *all*).


I could probably get away with mounting an outdoor antenna on the patio (the Channel Master 4228 perhaps?), but would that be much good since facing toward Sutro would be pointing it "back through the townhouse" building? Maybe it'd be OK because it'd pick up reflections off of the mountains?


Getting into the attic would be a bit of a challenge, drilling a hole in the ceiling (no easy way to get it through the walls in this construction) for coax...


I'm also not against using an outdoor antenna in the corner of the room mounted to the wall. It'd be big and ugly, maybe I could come up with a way to "decorate" it? Paint it to match the wall?


I'd love to hear others' thoughts. Thanks!


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pkx* /forum/post/17989314
> 
> 
> Pardon the cross-post, a also posted this in the SF Bay Area OTA thread. I'll include some more information here for those not familiar with the area.
> 
> 
> I'm hoping others can help me choose an antenna.
> 
> 
> I'm moving into a 2nd story townhouse in Milpitas where the living room's windows face south and east. I have a porch outside the south facing window. *Most of the channels are broadcast from Sutro Tower in San Francisco, 37 miles from me, in the northwest direction.*
> 
> 
> I bought a small Winegard SS-3000 inside powered antenna and pointed it toward Sutro (which would be at the wall which has another townhouse on the other side of it). Reception was poor (quality level 50ish for most channels, couldn't get ABC (7.1) it *all*).
> 
> 
> I could probably get away with mounting an outdoor antenna on the patio (the Channel Master 4228 perhaps?), but would that be much good since facing toward Sutro would be pointing it "back through the townhouse" building? Maybe it'd be OK because it'd pick up reflections off of the mountains?
> 
> 
> Getting into the attic would be a bit of a challenge, drilling a hole in the ceiling (no easy way to get it through the walls in this construction) for coax...
> 
> 
> I'm also not against using an outdoor antenna in the corner of the room mounted to the wall. It'd be big and ugly, maybe I could come up with a way to "decorate" it? Paint it to match the wall?
> 
> 
> I'd love to hear others' thoughts. Thanks!



I understand you do not have access to the attic from your unit? You should plot your stations from TVfool.com to determine frequency, strength and direction for the channels you want. Paste a link here.


----------



## pkx




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/17989470
> 
> 
> I understand you do not have access to the attic from your unit? You should plot your stations from TVfool.com to determine frequency, strength and direction for the channels you want. Paste a link here.



I do have access to the attic, but the way it's configured and the number of beams that cross it... It takes me about 15 minutes to contort my body enough to navigate through 10 feet







... and I'm a pretty small guy. The attic is only about 4' tall at the center.


Here's my TVFool link.

I'm most interested in receiving

Virt:

5.1(CBS)

4.1

2.1 (FOX)

11.1 (NBC)

7.1 (This is ABC that I can't seem to pick up - looks like it's high VHF)


Any others are just a bonus.


----------



## Ennui

Both 7.1 and 11.1 would require an antenna that picks up high VHF. The others are UHF. The stations are all quite strong at your location.


I would really try to get a small UHF/VHF antenna up in the attic. Then you would have a clear shot assuming your roof is not metallic. You do not need a big one since the stations are strong.


----------



## pkx




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/17989644
> 
> 
> I would really try to get a small UHF/VHF antenna up in the attic. Then you would have a clear shot. You do not need a big one since the stations are strong.



Yeah, I was disappointed by the performance of the indoor amplified Winegard I picked up relative to what tvfool says I should need. Do you have a VHF/UHF recommendation? If I put it up in the attic, small vs large doesn't matter so much, so if there's not a huge cost difference.. The 4228HD won't do well on ch7, huh... that's a bummer because it seems like a good price for the reception.


Edit: This Channel Master 2018 seems to be a good deal - I'd have to see if I can actually fit something that long in the attic.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pkx* /forum/post/17989654
> 
> 
> Yeah, I was disappointed by the performance of the indoor amplified Winegard I picked up relative to what tvfool says I should need. Do you have a VHF/UHF recommendation? If I put it up in the attic, small vs large doesn't matter so much, so if there's not a huge cost difference.. The 4228HD won't do well on ch7, huh... that's a bummer because it seems like a good price for the reception.



I would try the Winegard HD7000R because it will lay flat on the joists and I do not think you need more if you go to the attic. (You might want to raise it off the joists if there are heating ducts or wires below.)


----------



## pkx




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/17989667
> 
> 
> I would try the Winegard HD7000R because it will lay flat on the joists and I do not think you need more if you go to the attic. (You might want to raise it off the joists if there are heating ducts or wires below.)



Excellent - thank you for all of your help!


----------



## Ennui

Amazon has it for $36.


----------



## arxaw

The Winegard HD7000 has very long elements for VHF lowband. None of your channels are on VHF low, so it would be a lot of wasted width you don't need and possibly difficult to put in your attic.


I believe this much smaller VHF highband + UHF antenna would be a better choice for your channels of interest.



Just place it on top of a cardboard box to get it up off the attic floor and aim at Sutro Tower.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/17991293
> 
> 
> I believe this much smaller VHF highband + UHF antenna would be a better choice for your channels of interest.



I agree with arxaw.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

I currently have a silver sensor antenna that I hooked up outside, 25ft up, but i'm getting some days where NBC, Fox break up and get digitized. Signal strength is about 30-35%. I wanted to replace the antenna and make sure I don't have issues. TV fool says this
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...c7230ffcf3eed0 










I need a UHF/VHF antenna I suppose. It would be mounted outside, on the lip of the roof. Since it's so high up, i'll have to hire someone to install so I want to make sure the antenna I buy is definitely going to work. It's connected btw to Directv OTA receier. I just don't like he compression of DirecTV, hence wanting to now get OTA digital HDTV.


Suggestions? will this RCA work as suggested above? http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out...4369164&sr=8-1


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gadgetfreaky* /forum/post/17993991
> 
> 
> Suggestions? will this RCA work as suggested above? http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out...4369164&sr=8-1



Yes. That's a good price, too.


You have both VHF & UHF, which the above antenna should receive well, per your TVFool.


----------



## dt_

hello!


I'm new to the whole over-the-air DTV thing and I'm having some trouble picking up signals that TVFool says I shouldn't really have an issue with.

I recently got a USB TV Tuner for my laptop and am now using a Monoprice antenna I just purchased ( this one , specifically) to get TV signals. However, I am not able to get any VHF channels (ABC 7.1 and NBC 11.1 aren't picked up at all and don't get recognized in Windows Media Center) and some of my UHF channels (namely, 5.1 CBS / KPIX-DT) are getting pixelated / stuttering audio. Of course, some channels like 2.1 (Fox), 4.1 (MyNetwork) are fine.


I live in the third floor of an apartment building that has some concrete walls, but the antenna is near the window. It seems that even when I point the antenna in the southwest direction (and upward, of course), signal is not really improved. I certainly do not get ABC or NBC which is quite important to me.


Should I return this antenna and get a different one? I'd like an indoor antenna that can get both the UHF and VHF bands and that won't break the bank.


My TV fool results can be seen here: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...c7231ef86864b2 



Thank you very much! Any help would be much appreciated










dt_


----------



## systems2000

You'll need a VHF-Hi/UHF antenna and I'd try to point it between 207° and 210° to acquire stations between 203° and 220°. You have fairly strong levels and should be able to use most any quality antenna, although I would have chosen one like this. http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Antennas&sku=


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dt_* /forum/post/17995280
> 
> 
> I'm new to the whole over-the-air DTV thing and I'm having some trouble picking up signals that TVFool says I shouldn't really have an issue with. I recently got a USB TV Tuner for my laptop and am now using a Monoprice antenna I just purchased



The Monoprice antenna has an internal amplifier. The signal strengths on tvfool are so strong that your problem may be the amplifier.


Plain old rabbit ears will work better, or you may consider the Terk HDTVi.


----------



## deltaguy

dt_,


A laptop can emit substantial interference. If your antenna is anywhere near it, it may be killing signal. This is typically worse on VHF, but UHF is subject as well. Getting the antenna away from the laptop might be a solution. The more distance the merrier.


----------



## dt_




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/17995629
> 
> 
> The Monoprice antenna has an internal amplifier. The signal strengths on tvfool are so strong that your problem may be the amplifier.
> 
> 
> Plain old rabbit ears will work better, or you may consider the Terk HDTVi.



Are you suggesting that the amplifier is actually causing problems, or that something is actually *wrong* with the amplifier?


@deltaguy: Are you sure? I'll experiment with distances and see what happens. Right now the antenna is maybe 3 feet away from the laptop.. is that long enough? I'll move it farther away and report on any improvements. Thanks for the tip.








*edit:* Well, moving the laptop farther away from the antenna didn't really cause any significant improvements except I was able to get ABC for about 3 seconds, during which it was all pixelated, and then I lost the signal. I haven't been able to reclaim it since. :/


----------



## deltaguy

dt_,


I've personally seen a new Dell laptop dump signals at upwards of 10 feet away. 3 feet is certainly not enough. That particular laptop is more detrimental to signal than a conventional computer tower. Much much worse. The fact that KGO appeared, makes this even more likely to be the cause of your problem. Your TVFool shows plenty of signal, so don't be afraid of adding lots of coax to gain your antenna some distance.


----------



## dt_

^ Interesting. I do actually have a Dell XPS laptop  Would it help to disable radios like wi-fi and bluetooth? Are these the main source of interference? If not, what in particular is emitting the interference? My desk is next to the window so unless I really have to, I'd like to be able to watch tv on the desk. Could the fact that the walls around here are mostly solid concrete have anything to do with it? A lot of my neighbors have trouble getting cell phone signal, for instance.


I will think about getting a longer coax cable too, however.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dt_* /forum/post/17996534
> 
> 
> ^ Interesting. I do actually have a Dell XPS laptop  Would it help to disable radios like wi-fi and bluetooth? Are these the main source of interference? If not, what in particular is emitting the interference? My desk is next to the window so unless I really have to, I'd like to be able to watch tv on the desk. Could the fact that the walls around here are mostly solid concrete have anything to do with it? A lot of my neighbors have trouble getting cell phone signal, for instance.
> 
> 
> I will think about getting a longer coax cable too, however.



The laptop that killed signal here did not have radios, so I don't think that is the problem. The exact mechanics of the laptop interference is beyond my expertise. However, if I want to watch tv OTA via indoor antenna, rather than satellite, I don't want the machine in the room.


edit: The laptop is a wireless one, so I guess that means it's a radio.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dt_* /forum/post/17996534
> 
> 
> ^ Interesting. I do actually have a Dell XPS laptop  Would it help to disable radios like wi-fi and bluetooth? Are these the main source of interference? If not, what in particular is emitting the interference? My desk is next to the window so unless I really have to, I'd like to be able to watch tv on the desk. Could the fact that the walls around here are mostly solid concrete have anything to do with it? A lot of my neighbors have trouble getting cell phone signal, for instance.
> 
> 
> I will think about getting a longer coax cable too, however.



Concrete walls can really degrade reception, especially KGO ABC & KNTV NBC, which are in the VHF band. VHF doesn't penetrate walls as well as UHF. VHF is more prone to interference from all sorts of electronic devices like your computer, etc. An amp will only amplify the noise.


If you have a radio shack nearby, try model 15-1874 un-amplified rabbit ear/loop antenna (If it doesn't work, return it for a refund).


Buy an extra 10'-12' length of RG6 coax cable and add it to the antenna, using a barrel splice , also available at RS.


Extend the dipole rods no longer than 14"-15" each (to optimize for the frequencies KGO & KNTV are using) in a "V" shape like this , and place near a window facing SouthWest.


Make sure any electronic devices like computers, blue tooth, routers, wireless/cordless phones in the room are far away from the antenna. Try opening the window, to see if it affects reception. Insulating low-e glass can degrade reception too, particularly VHF.


If some channels are weak, try moving the antenna up/down, left/right, until you find a hot spot. A foot or two change in location can do wonders, just like moving around with a cell phone to get out of a dead reception spot.


If none of this helps, post back here.

(generally, if a cell phone doesn't work well in a building, TV reception is not going to work well, either).


----------



## aethyrmaster

It's been a LONG while since my last post here, but it's time again...


The SBGH antenna that I've been using has been good, but it's time to go for a REAL antenna now - my wife "just wants stuff to work, without playing or tweaking or building."



So, I'm after an outdoor antenna.













I/my wife care about 6 stations, anything more is a bonus.


*Station**Real Channel**Virtual Channel**Call Sign*NBC1128.1WBRECBS1322.1WYOUION3264.1WQPXPBS4144.1WVIAFOX4556.1WOLFABC5016.1WNEP


1. I have a metal roof.

2. I have Aluminum siding.

3. As you can see, I need VHF-Hi as well as far out into UHF territory.



I don't mind mounting to the side of the house; I just don't know the best way to mount through it and stay waterproof. I'd rather not mount ON the roof.


I do have a front porch. I *can* mount to that, but I'd lose height. Having that information, here are the questions I have:


1. Would a single 7-69 antenna be better or worse than a good UHF and good VHF with a combiner?


2. How do I mount through aluminum siding while staying waterproof?


3. If I mount a pipe to the side of my porch, how tall can I go above the last mounting bracket before wind load can be an issue? I realize this is dependent on type of antenna; is there some general amount that's bad? 2 feet, 5 feet? 10 seems like total overkill, and I wouldn't go that far.


4. Repeat question #3, but with a roof tripod mount?


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *aethyrmaster* /forum/post/17998367
> 
> 
> 1. I have a metal roof.
> 
> 2. I have Aluminum siding.
> 
> 3. As you can see, I need VHF-Hi as well as far out into UHF territory.
> 
> 
> I don't mind mounting to the side of the house; I just don't know the best way to mount through it and stay waterproof. I'd rather not mount ON the roof.
> 
> 
> I do have a front porch. I *can* mount to that, but I'd lose height. Having that information, here are the questions I have:
> 
> 
> 1. Would a single 7-69 antenna be better or worse than a good UHF and good VHF with a combiner?
> 
> 
> 2. How do I mount through aluminum siding while staying waterproof?
> 
> 
> 3. If I mount a pipe to the side of my porch, how tall can I go above the last mounting bracket before wind load can be an issue? I realize this is dependent on type of antenna; is there some general amount that's bad? 2 feet, 5 feet? 10 seems like total overkill, and I wouldn't go that far.
> 
> 
> 4. Repeat question #3, but with a roof tripod mount?



Your virtual & real columns are reversed.


1. This antenna should work fine.

Or this one .

Or this one .


2. Use silicone sealant under mounting bracket & screws.


3. If your TVFool is correct, you don't need much height. Wind load shouldn't be much of a problem with a smaller antenna.


4. If you have a gable end of a roof peak that faces East or NorthEast, that would be the ideal location for your antenna.

A long J-mount , installed on the gable end at the roof peak should work well for these smaller antennas.


Links are for example. Items may be available locally.


----------



## PCTools

Why did you mount the bottom antenna off-set like that?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/17980414
> 
> 
> Thanks. This is my antenna system.


----------



## dt_




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/17997436
> 
> 
> If you have a radio shack nearby, try model 15-1874 un-amplified rabbit ear/loop antenna (If it doesn't work, return it for a refund).
> 
> 
> Extend the dipole rods no longer than 14"-15" each (to optimize for the frequencies KGO & KNTV are using) in a "V" shape like this , and place near a window facing SouthWest.




Thanks for all the advice!







I actually don't have a window facing southwest however unless I go in a different room that's not where I'd prefer to watch TV.. is it still likely that the dipole antenna you recommended would work from a room on the north side of the building (despite the concrete walls on the south side :/ ) ?


Furthermore, is there a reason why that unamplified antenna would be more likely to pick up the VHF signals than the amplified Monoprice antenna I got?


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/17998923
> 
> 
> Why did you mount the bottom antenna off-set like that?



Because we have a lot of birds that like high places and when the antenna is pointed North (most of the time), the antenna does not hang over our nice white wood patio cover. That is why I went with the HD9095P also.


I have had many antennas on that rotor and shaft: 20 meter 3 element and (later) a 10 meter 5 element beam. I had a UHF/VHF Winegard above both to get LA PBS stations. We had a real bird problem. When I sold all my ham gear, I also sold the ham antennas. I then took down the long UHF/VHF antenna and put up the HD9095P. Just last month, I put up the YA1713 VHF.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dt_* /forum/post/17995280
> 
> 
> hello!
> 
> 
> I'm new to the whole over-the-air DTV thing and I'm having some trouble picking up signals that TVFool says I shouldn't really have an issue with.
> 
> I recently got a USB TV Tuner for my laptop and am now using a Monoprice antenna I just purchased ( this one , specifically) to get TV signals. However, I am not able to get any VHF channels (ABC 7.1 and NBC 11.1 aren't picked up at all and don't get recognized in Windows Media Center) and some of my UHF channels (namely, 5.1 CBS / KPIX-DT) are getting pixelated / stuttering audio. Of course, some channels like 2.1 (Fox), 4.1 (MyNetwork) are fine.
> 
> 
> I live in the third floor of an apartment building that has some concrete walls, but the antenna is near the window. It seems that even when I point the antenna in the southwest direction (and upward, of course), signal is not really improved. I certainly do not get ABC or NBC which is quite important to me.
> 
> 
> Should I return this antenna and get a different one? I'd like an indoor antenna that can get both the UHF and VHF bands and that won't break the bank.
> 
> 
> My TV fool results can be seen here: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...c7231ef86864b2
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you very much! Any help would be much appreciated
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dt_



That Monoprice only has ONE "Ear"....you need TWO "Ears" for Hi-VHF.

With only one "Ear", it's acting as a monopole antenna, with only a very

minimal "ground plane" when trying to receive horizontally polarized

signals ("Ear" sideways). And when the "Ear" is vertical, it only receives

signals from those few stations using both vertical and horizontal polarization.

With TWO "Ears" it can operate as a proper tuned dipole....with higher gain.


The internal 20 dB gain amplifier is probably "overloaded" by your strong signals,

generating intermodulation noise products across many of the weaker channels:
http://www.odyseus.nildram.co.uk/Sys.../Linearity.pdf 

You should NOT be using either an amplified antenna or a Preamp.

First try a simple, returnable, non-amplified Loop/Rabbit-Ear antenna...


Computers (and most other electronic devices that contain a "processor")

generate RF signals, which can "leak" into the VHF and UHF TV bands.

The FCC has set some limits on how much leakage is "acceptable", but

the closer you are the more of a problem it can be....and FCC approvals

are for the first (tweaked) prototype unit and not guaranteed in production.


You can TEST to see whether your laptop is a problem or not. Wrap aluminum

foil COMPLETELY around a cardboard box and (briefly) put the laptop inside it...

Be sure the foil overlaps so no RF energy (OR HEAT!!!) escapes. Also warp foil

around the power cord for a couple feet and a set of Earbuds/Headphones.

Since you can't watch the laptop inside, LISTEN for audio dropouts via the

earbuds/headphones. Don't let the laptop sit inside the hot box very long!!!


----------



## holl_ands

*aethyrmaster:*

Can't comment re structurally sound antenna mounts without seeing your construction.

Entry location is best under a protected eave and be sure to use a drip loop and a spark gap grounding block.

You could use an entry tube sealed with RTV. Fol. weatherproof cable entry options may also be of interest:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...u=615798310196 
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...%20Cables&sku=


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dt_* /forum/post/17998957
> 
> 
> ...is it still likely that the dipole antenna you recommended would work from a room on the north side of the building (despite the concrete walls on the south side :/ ) ?



It would be more likely to work on the North side if placed near a window. Would it work? Impossible to tell from here. You'll just have to try it.



> Quote:
> Furthermore, is there a reason why that unamplified antenna would be more likely to pick up the VHF signals than the amplified Monoprice antenna I got?



You do *not* need an amp. Your problem is concrete walls blocking the signal, interference from a multitude of electrical and wireless devices in your (and probably other nearby) apartments. Plus, you have an antenna unsuitable for the channels in your area. An amp will only amplify the noise and interference in the area.


There is no magic indoor antenna. You just need one suitable for the UHF & VHF channels being used in your area. I suggested one that I would try, based on past experience. It may work. Or not.


----------



## systems2000

Concrete and brick walls have rebar imbedded within and may act like a wall to the RF signals (depends upon the spacing).


----------



## dt_

Sigh...

I went and picked up the RadioShack bunny ears antenna you recommended today and didn't notice much of an improvement for practical use.

Even on the south side of the building, I was not able to pick up VHF channel 11.1 at all, and I was able to get 7.1 but only by adjusting the poles of the antenna at VERY SPECIFIC angles -- it was so sensitive that I easily lost the signal and had a very tough time finding it again.


I think I'm just going to give up at this point.. I can live without a couple of channels for now.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dt_* /forum/post/18004736
> 
> 
> Sigh...
> 
> I went and picked up the RadioShack bunny ears antenna you recommended today and didn't notice much of an improvement for practical use.
> 
> Even on the south side of the building, I was not able to pick up VHF channel 11.1 at all, and I was able to get 7.1 but only by adjusting the poles of the antenna at VERY SPECIFIC angles -- it was so sensitive that I easily lost the signal and had a very tough time finding it again.
> 
> 
> I think I'm just going to give up at this point.. I can live without a couple of channels for now.



Did you add distance away from your laptop? I agree that rabbit ears can be finicky. The only way I get KGO here is to have the dipoles fully extended, and the distance between the two poles has got to be just right. 1/8" can be the margin for success.


----------



## dt_




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/18004843
> 
> 
> Did you add distance away from your laptop? I agree that rabbit ears can be finicky. The only way I get KGO here is to have the dipoles fully extended, and the distance between the two poles has got to be just right. 1/8" can be the margin for success.




The dipoles are 1/8" apart? At the very ends? That seems.. awfully close together


----------



## deltaguy

V


Above is how rabbit ears are typically used. It's worked that way for a long time. How far apart should the top of the


V be?


That's fine tuning for rabbit ears. They even sometimes work in an


L position. It depends on the broadcast pattern.


----------



## aethyrmaster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/17998752
> 
> 
> Your virtual & real columns are reversed.



My bad. Fixed.


> Quote:
> 1. This antenna should work fine.
> 
> Or this one .
> 
> Or this one .



That's about what I was looking at - thanks.


> Quote:
> 2. Use silicone sealant under mounting bracket & screws.



Aye, that I'll do. I'm going to mount to the porch roof so that I can avoid EVERYTHING - working around gutters, Aluminum siding, metal roof...










> Quote:
> 3. If your TVFool is correct, you don't need much height. Wind load shouldn't be much of a problem with a smaller antenna.



I need it to grab WQPX - I think the porch roof will be fine, though.


> Quote:
> 4. If you have a gable end of a roof peak that faces East or NorthEast, that would be the ideal location for your antenna.
> 
> A long J-mount , installed on the gable end at the roof peak should work well for these smaller antennas.



No gables. Square house, square roof.







It's a bugger.


> Quote:
> Links are for example. Items may be available locally.



Only store local with antenna is Ace hardware - yuck, but that's where I'll go.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/18000257
> 
> *aethyrmaster:*
> 
> Can't comment re structurally sound antenna mounts without seeing your construction.
> 
> Entry location is best under a protected eave and be sure to use a drip loop and a spark gap grounding block.
> 
> You could use an entry tube sealed with RTV. Fol. weatherproof cable entry options may also be of interest:
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...u=615798310196
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...%20Cables&sku=



I'll be coming in via my basement Bilco doors, through an already sealed point - I don't have to re-run cable, just move from old antenna to new.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *aethyrmaster* /forum/post/18005911
> 
> 
> That's about what I was looking at - thanks.
> 
> Aye, that I'll do. I'm going to mount to the porch roof so that I can avoid EVERYTHING - working around gutters, Aluminum siding, metal roof...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I need it to grab WQPX - I think the porch roof will be fine, though.
> 
> No gables. Square house, square roof.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a bugger.
> 
> Only store local with antenna is Ace hardware...



I can't recommend anything for WQPX. It looks to be either low power or you've got some hills between you and their tower. If you go back to your TVFool report page and click on the individual stations' call letters, you'll see a page showing their transmit power and also a graph. On the left hand side of the graph is the TV tower. On the far right is your house. In the middle, it shows hills that may be blocking the tower from you, and the distance, relative to your location & the tower. Perhaps others more knowledgeable than I will post with WQPX antenna suggestions. But if it were me, I would just order one of the 3 antennas I posted and abandon WQPX.


Be careful if you insist on buying from Ace Hardware. Your store may differ, but our local store only has the older "all channel" antennas, designed to receive the VHF-Lowband channels 2 thru 6, plus all the other channels. You don't need the long lowband VHF elements for the channels you can receive. Hopefully, they can order a much smaller "VHF-highband+UHF" antenna for you.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dt_* /forum/post/18004992
> 
> 
> The dipoles are 1/8" apart? At the very ends? That seems.. awfully close together



No, I think he means that changing the separation (or the length) by a small amount can affect reception.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dt_* /forum/post/18004736
> 
> 
> Sigh...
> 
> I went and picked up the RadioShack bunny ears antenna you recommended today and didn't notice much of an improvement for practical use...



It's likely that in addition to very little signal entering through your concrete walls, what signal is getting in, is being bombarded with other interfering radio waves from various electronic devices you or your neighbors are using. Did you try distancing the rabbit ears from your computer and other electronic junk, using a long piece of coax added to the cable?




> Quote:
> I think I'm just going to give up at this point...



In your case, that's probably a good idea.


Whenever cell phone reception is iffy in parts of a building, it's almost a given that indoor TV reception will likely not work well at that location, either, unless one has the patience to find a hot spot and antenna position where all channels can be received.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dt_* /forum/post/18004992
> 
> 
> The dipoles are 1/8" apart? At the very ends? That seems.. awfully close together



Sigh...


----------



## PCTools

+1


I messed around with adding more length to these, and it yielded no benefit. Actually, it throws off the entire design with messing up the gain at various frequencies.


Also, I have seen where a single 91XG will outperform my horizontal stack.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/17958646
> 
> 
> Only when the narrow beamwidth is actually smack on target.
> 
> Any sort of wind is gonna whip it back and forth....until it bends/breaks....
> 
> Anyone care to model how much gain is lost in that saggy boom....
> 
> and how much more is lost as the boom is bend sideways by the wind....


----------



## holl_ands

300ohm posted a NEC file for the XG91 with 6 additional directors:
http://www.wuala.com/300ohm/Documents/ 

I had to bring it into 4nec2's Geometry Editor to renumber the wires

and then run with Autosegment(9) enabled.

Gain increase is only 0.5 to 1.25 dB.....but is very smooth.

You'll understand why A-D uses a custom PCB balun if you look at the SWR.


----------



## mlmahon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/18014918
> 
> 
> +1
> 
> 
> I messed around with adding more length to these, and it yielded no benefit. Actually, it throws off the entire design with messing up the gain at various frequencies.
> 
> 
> Also, I have seen where a single 91XG will outperform my horizontal stack.



I'm currently using a modified XG91 with 6 added directors on a 50 foot mast. My personal experience is that the gain is noticably better and has a much narrower beamwidth than the stock model and my previous vertically stacked rig of 2 stock XG91's. I am very pleased with the performance and weight reduction on my mast and rotor.


-ML


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mlmahon* /forum/post/18018788
> 
> 
> I'm currently using a modified XG91 with 6 added directors on a 50 foot mast. My personal experience is that the gain is noticably better and has a much narrower beamwidth than the stock model and my previous vertically stacked rig of 2 stock XG91's. I am very pleased with the performance and weight reduction on my mast and rotor.
> 
> 
> -ML



FYI, beamwidth and gain are inextricably linked in our antennas. Narrower beamwidth=increased gain.


----------



## mlmahon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/18020349
> 
> 
> FYI, beamwidth and gain are inextricably linked in our antennas. Narrower beamwidth=increased gain.



I'm well aware of the relationship. I've been using the modified XG91 for a year and just thought I'd give a 'real world' report of an actual usage experience.


-ML


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mlmahon* /forum/post/18025400
> 
> 
> I'm well aware of the relationship. I've been using the modified XG91 for a year and just thought I'd give a 'real world' report of an actual usage experience.
> 
> 
> -ML



Sorry, I did not mean to be "preachy". Some people write about the two like they are disconnected.


Very interesting to read your report. That is what it's all about.


----------



## Larry Kenney

This is for DT who was having problems receiving KGO 7 and KNTV 12 here in San Francisco. As pointed out by others, VHF signals don't penetrate walls like UHF signals do, and a friend in Berkeley just proved that. He was having problems receiving both VHF stations using an indoor antenna - a combination rabbit ears/UHF loop model - but no problem at all with the UHF stations.


I was recently at his home and suggested we try something. We got a 25 foot piece of coax and connected it to the end of his antenna and then stuck the antenna outside on his deck. What a difference! His signals on KGO and KNTV went from the low 70's on his meter to about 90. Same antenna, but just moving it outside made all the difference. As for the UHF signals, there was little difference, maybe 5% at most.


So anyone having problems with VHF stations, try sticking your antenna outside. You might be amazed at the results.


Larry

SF


----------



## nenbeely

I'm new to the OTA game, and looking for an antenna recommendation. My home is two stories, and the previous homeowner installed a ~5 foot tall tube antenna mount on the highest point of the roof. There's an existing antenna there, but it is badly damaged/possibly quite old, and I do not plan on attempting to salvage it.


Here's my signal analysis from TVFool:











I am most interested in the closest ABC/NBC/CBS/Fox/PBS signals, but obviously any other stations I can pick up clearly are a bonus.


From the antenna mount to my HTPC, I'll be running about 60' worth of cable.


I was about to purchase a Winegard MS 1000 omnidirectional - is this a good choice? I like the low cost and low visual profile, but I want to make sure it isn't a better idea to go with a directional antenna. Thanks in advance for any advice you can collectively give!


----------



## arxaw

Omnis are nearly always a poor choice for OTA DTV.


One of these should get all of your channels of interest, without difficulty.


Just remove the old antenna from the existing mast and clamp the new one in its place. Aim ~200° SW. Replace old coax with new RG6.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> You might be amazed at the results.



Wow, your station KAXT must be setting a record with 15 sub channels. The most I had seen previously was 10.


----------



## GBLentz

We live in a single-story house, way out in the sticks (as evidenced by the TVFool analysis below). We would really like to be able to pull in FOX, either on ch19, or the repeater on ch33. Is there any realistic hope of doing this without a roof or mast-mounted antenna? TIA.


----------



## holl_ands

KAXT equipment described here claimed 20 sub-channels:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/86638 

Fol. KAXT TSReader report showed 12 AUDIO/VIDEO programs...plus 7 AUDIO only:
http://www.w6rz.net/kaxt.htm 

Fol. (more recent) TSReader report shows 12 A/V but only 3 AUDIO only:
http://www.rabbitears.info/screencap...168133-0_0.htm 


With alleged shortage of available FM assignments, they're expanding to DTV band.

If they got rid of a bunch of Video programs, every FM tower in their market could be

shut down, saving the cost of operating a bunch of separate towers.....and it's Dolby Digital....


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GBLentz* /forum/post/18050440
> 
> 
> We would really like to be able to pull in FOX, either on ch19, or the repeater on ch33.



Are you sure the repeater on 33 is actually on the air? For that kind of tramsmitter, TVFool often lists construction permits that haven't been built yet. For 19 you definitely need a good UHF-only antenna, with pre-amp, mounted outdoors as high as you can get it (at least 25-30 feet), and even then you're not guaranteed 100% reception; it might come in only at night but not during the day, for example.


Such a setup would probably give you reliable reception on 33 if it's in fact on the air. There's no way you're going to get it with an indoor antenna, though.


----------



## arxaw

Contact the station to see if the translator is on the air. If so, and if your TVFool is correct, 33 is certainly doable with an outdoor antenna.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/18050954
> 
> 
> Fol. (more recent) TSReader report shows 12 A/V but only 3 AUDIO only:
> http://www.rabbitears.info/screencap...168133-0_0.htm



12 video and 3 audio is the current break down of the KAXT signal. While the channel offers lots of variety, from Cool TV music videos to the Family Channel and the Jewelry Channel to various religious channels, the quality leaves a lot to be desired. On my 7-inch portable TV the picture looks okay, but all of the sub-channels look pretty bad on a large flat screen TV. There's not much resolution on any of them.


Audio-wise, most of the channels are mono, if not all of them.


It's simply a case of quantity vs quality. You can't have both.


Also of interest, due to a conflict with a PBS station using channel 22 for their virtual channel, KAXT is using channel ONE... 1-1, 1-2, 1-3...1-15 for their virtual channel.


Larry

SF


----------



## GBLentz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/18052186
> 
> 
> Are you sure the repeater on 33 is actually on the air? For that kind of tramsmitter, TVFool often lists construction permits that haven't been built yet. For 19 you definitely need a good UHF-only antenna, with pre-amp, mounted outdoors as high as you can get it (at least 25-30 feet), and even then you're not guaranteed 100% reception; it might come in only at night but not during the day, for example.
> 
> 
> Such a setup would probably give you reliable reception on 33 if it's in fact on the air. There's no way you're going to get it with an indoor antenna, though.



Thanks for the reply, jtbell.


I got the Vikings game a few weekends ago on Ch33 at my in-laws, with a signal strength of 90% so, yes, it's definitely on the air. Their antenna is about 20' up, 5.77 miles from the transmitter. We're just over four times that distance.


TVFool indicates a signal power of -53.7dbm for them (though their antenna is actually situated behind a grove of 30-40 foot trees). Ours looks like it would be -80.3dbm with a 15ft height. Going to 30ft only gains us 1dbm.


I'm thinking no dice on FOX, unless I'm interpreting this incorrectly?


----------



## arxaw

For KVRR, no.


----------



## GBLentz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/18069785
> 
> 
> For KVRR, no.



Was pretty certain of that already.


Ch33 (K33KC) is a local FOX repeater... figured that's our only hope for getting it OTA.


----------



## b1gmoose

Some of you may be interested in this. I do not work for Ace Hardware, but it is a good deal.


The CM 1630 30' telescopic mast is $99 and change, and they will ship it to the nearest Ace Hardware store for free.


So if you've been looking for one but amazed at the $140 freight charge, now is a good time to get one at a reasonable price.


They do not carry the 1640 that I could find.


I ordered my 1630 today, hopefully it will show up in the next week or 2.


Also, you will have to buy guy lines, turn-buckles, etc. Figure 100' of guy line per side. So 300' for a 3 line and 400' for a 4 line setup. That would cover either 20 or 22' radius from the base. And then you'll need some 3' or 4' screw anchors and a base plate.


Now for those of you that know zoning, would this be considered a temporary antenna support structure / structure ? And what is the square footage? Is it just the square foot measurement of the base, or do you need to factor in the entire radius of the guy wires? If a structure is 100 sf or less, no permit is needed here .


~ryan


----------



## holl_ands

Some additional info re Stacking Antennas:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=963113


----------



## Vipfreak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/18054979
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF



Hey, Larry. I'm in San Jose (I know it's not that close to you, but it might help) I need a portable antenna that will receive signals about 40 mi. away from me. Is it possible that there will be one that fits this or am I screwed? Thanks


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GBLentz* /forum/post/18068773
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply, jtbell.
> 
> 
> I got the Vikings game a few weekends ago on Ch33 at my in-laws, with a signal strength of 90% so, yes, it's definitely on the air. Their antenna is about 20' up, 5.77 miles from the transmitter. We're just over four times that distance.
> 
> 
> TVFool indicates a signal power of -53.7dbm for them (though their antenna is actually situated behind a grove of 30-40 foot trees). Ours looks like it would be -80.3dbm with a 15ft height. Going to 30ft only gains us 1dbm.
> 
> 
> I'm thinking no dice on FOX, unless I'm interpreting this incorrectly?



As arxaw noted, ch 33 is definitely do-able. I get stations down to at least -90dbm reliably with an AntennasDirect 91XG. You can see a couple of pics of my setup at the link in my signature.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Hey, Larry. I'm in San Jose (I know it's not that close to you, but it might help) I need a portable antenna that will receive signals about 40 mi. away from me. Is it possible that there will be one that fits this or am I screwed? Thanks



Heh, what do you consider portable ? Also post your TVFool image and the stations that you are most interested in.


You can build a foldable GH, that when folded, fits in your pocket. Its good for uhf for 40 - 50 miles away (about 7 to 11+ dbi bi-directional). If I do say so myself, its probably about the best performing uhf antenna that fits in a pocket, heh heh.










7 inch legs, 5.6 inch stubs, 3.5 inches between inside points. Locks in place using wing nuts. I made the above using old timey formica trim moulding which has a lip on it, so when locked in place, the 90 and 135 degrees angles are correct. Others have built it using notched aluminum flat bar.


When finished, it takes only a few minutes to assemble and disassemble. (I only loosen the wing nuts about 1/4 inch to fold up)


----------



## systems2000

I'd love to see a sweep of that thing.


----------



## Vipfreak




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/18130256
> 
> 
> Heh, what do you consider portable ? Also post your TVFool image and the stations that you are most interested in.



Well... lol, That's not portable enough. Thanks though. I need it for work where it's small enough to carry in a bag and can be placed on the desk temporarily kind of antenna. Thanks for the help in advance.


I guess it would be channel 7 (KGO) and 11 (KNTV). But it's probably the one that's 40 mi. away that are the issue more than near me.


Like this?
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...27ee8d361a47e8


----------



## holl_ands

A simple RabbitEars/Loop antenna should do the job for stations in the "green" zone:
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/n...o/IMG_0095.jpg 


Or just the UHF Loop (see jpg above) if you don't "need" the Hi-VHF stations....

Amplified would be better if you want to spend the extra cash & have an outlet...


A simple monopole "whip" came with my USB Stick Tuner, sort of like the following.

They only work with strong signals....but you might get lucky:
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.5174 
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...59#tabsetBasic 
http://www.radioshack.com/graphics/u...0006_PM_EN.pdf 


There are numerous Indoor Antennas to chose from, including pictures, in EV's thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779 


If you want something somewhat more "collapsible", consider using bare AWG12

"house wire" that you shape into a 7.75-in diameter loop for UHF and another

21-in diameter loop for Hi-VHF (insulation on wire is okay). Perhaps you could

hang them from the ceiling??? Either swap them or use a UVSJ combiner.

And simply fold it up to fit into your bag:
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...0Diameters.jpg 
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...%20Sizes_1.jpg


----------



## Vipfreak

I was entertaining this antenna although I'm not sure the actual size. I'm also not sure about it's performance because of mixed results in a search for it.

http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT1650-Di...6173139&sr=8-1 


I'll check that round up guide. Dunno why that didn't come up when I did a search on this forum. Thanks.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/18130998
> 
> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.5174



This is pretty much what came with my usb tv tuner card and why I can't get the far stations.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I'd love to see a sweep of that thing.



4nec2 throws fits about it because of the wide bar, but in actual testing comparing it to other 10 dbi antennas I have, it follows this graph quite well IMO. (I also can get real channel 6 on it from 61 miles away, despite the very high negative gain. But thats because WPVI quadrupled their power, not the antenna)












> Quote:
> and can be placed on the desk temporarily kind of antenna.



The unfolded size is 25" wide by 30" high. I do have a desk stand made for it that I made from 1 telescoping/swiveling rabbit ear on a block. This props it up on a desk. I also made a wall hanger from 2 alligator clips and nylon string. The whole antenna, desk stand and wall hanger fit into a 1 1/2" X 2 1/2" X 9" long box when folded, heh. Coax and balun are carried along separately.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Vipfreak* /forum/post/18127544
> 
> 
> Hey, Larry. I'm in San Jose (I know it's not that close to you, but it might help) I need a portable antenna that will receive signals about 40 mi. away from me. Is it possible that there will be one that fits this or am I screwed? Thanks



I think you've got some really good suggestions from the group here, Vip... but 40 miles is a pretty long distance to receive stations with a small antenna. You really need something up on the roof to get reliable reception and to avoid constantly having to tweak and adjust the antenna. But since you need something small and portable, the suggestions shown are probably your best bets. No guarantees on how well they'll work though. Good luck!


Larry

SF


----------



## jstarling82

Hi, all. I really appreciate all the great information contained in these forums. There's a lot of care and expertise that has gone into compiling such a wealth of knowledge, and it shows.


I do have a specific question I'd like some guidance on. I recently upgraded to a HD TV, and my cable company wants a major upgrade to service in order to provide HD programming. ("fiber" provider, blech!) Anyway, I thought this might be a good opportunity to give OTA a shot. I generated a TVfool analysis , but I can't make much sense of it. It does seem that some of the numbers are a bit conservative based on what I've seen some of my neighbors achieve, but it could be due to the wooded area in which I live. I'm about 40 miles from the towers in Savannah, Ga.


I'd like to try an indoor antenna, obviously, and I have my eye on the DIY antenna described in another thread, but if that's not going to be a practical solution for me, then why waste the time? Could anyone make a recommendation for my situation?


Thanks.


----------



## systems2000

The colors on your report, correspond to the range of the antenna. An antenna that is designed for the "Green" area, will have a tough time acquiring stations that are in the "Red" area. Of course, an antenna designed for the "Red" area will be able to acquire the stations in the "Green" and "Yellow" areas very easily. Beyond the "Red" area, you'll need a pre-amplifier and some height.


Looks like you can get all the Networks except for MyNetwork and _i_ON. You should be able to receive stations down to -23dB NM, if you have the right setup. I don't believe you'll be happy with an indoor antenna.


The report shows you that most of your stations are 2edge reception (meaning there are obstructions to a RF Line-of-Sight to the transmitting antennas). It shows the distance to the transmitting towers, the "TRUE" heading, and the "Magnetic" (compass) heading.


Since you have stations in all three bands of the television OTA spectrum, you'll need a VHF/UHF combo antenna. You also have stations in multiple directions, which will require a rotor. Don't count on reliable (if any) reception of the "Tropo" stations. Those are stations, where you are getting reflected signals from the Ionosphere.


----------



## jstarling82




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/18140551
> 
> 
> The colors on your report, correspond to the range of the antenna. An antenna that is designed for the "Green" area, will have a tough time acquiring stations that are in the "Red" area. Of course, an antenna designed for the "Red" area will be able to acquire the stations in the "Green" and "Yellow" areas very easily. Beyond the "Red" area, you'll need a pre-amplifier and some height.
> 
> 
> Looks like you can get all the Networks except for MyNetwork and _i_ON. You should be able to receive stations down to -23dB NM, if you have the right setup. I don't believe you'll be happy with an indoor antenna.
> 
> 
> The report shows you that most of your stations are 2edge reception (meaning there are obstructions to a RF Line-of-Sight to the transmitting antennas). It shows the distance to the transmitting towers, the "TRUE" heading, and the "Magnetic" (compass) heading.
> 
> 
> Since you have stations in all three bands of the television OTA spectrum, you'll need a VHF/UHF combo antenna. You also have stations in multiple directions, which will require a rotor. Don't count on reliable (if any) reception of the "Tropo" stations. Those are stations, where you are getting reflected signals from the Ionosphere.



So a roof mount is likely my only workable option? Honestly, most of the stations I care about will be SE of here. The rest are going to be mostly local networks from other, non-local markets. If I'm interested mainly in reception of the closest channels, the ones to the SE, what would you suggest?


I suppose it's also somewhat worth noting that I'd planned to use the existing dish mount which is oh so conveniently located on the North corner of the house. Oh, well.


----------



## Ennui

I assume everyone is talking about a rotator. I don't know what a rotor is (except in my garbage disposal)


----------



## holl_ands

Pascal Marcoux presented a paper at the IEEE Broadcast Technology Symposium in Oct 2009,

"Revisiting the Field Strength Requirements for DTV in the Canadian Context", but apparently

it hasn't yet been published, other than the fol. VU-graph presentation:
http://www.ccbe.ca/Downloads/CCBE200...ngDTVminFS.pdf 

There is probably a lot of "specsmanship" going on here. For example, HBU-22

"specs" simply say 4.1 dBd Hi-VHF and 7.3 (not 7.2) dBd UHF Gain without saying

which channel nor whether it was guaranteed minimum (fat chance), some sort of

"average", "typical" (whatever that is supposed to mean) or the max Gain found

somewhere in the band (very likely).....YMMV....

And since Marcoux didn't explain what HE was measuring, perhaps it was the

WORST Gain found somewhere in the band.....maybe, maybe not....YMMV....


Marcoux's presentation was briefly mentioned in Doug Lung's column in TV TECHNOLOGY magazine:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/90786 


It includes test results on several antennas: an (unidentified) 4-Bay Bowtie w Reflector,

Antennacraft HBU-22 Hi-VHF/UHF Yagi, Terk HDTVi UHF LPDA + VHF RabbitEars and

one of the (unidentified) RCA Square Panels (such as ANT1650, et. al.).....which

should NOT be confused with the ANT2000 Smart Antenna.....


WOW, didn't know the Terk HDTVi was such a terrible Hi-VHF and UHF [email protected]!#!

And (as expected), fergit about using RCA Square Panel Omni antennas....


These are probably the worst examples to illustrate huge discrepancies between

manufacturer "specs" (such as they are) and actual performance.....YMMV....


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/18140923
> 
> 
> I assume everyone is talking about a rotator.



That's correct.


Since you're only interested in the stations to the S.E., point your antenna at 137° (Magnetic). Your PBS station is VHF-High and close enough to not worry about. The furthest station is just under 41 miles, but as you posted earlier, there are "Woods" to worry about and you're dealing with 2-edge reception.


You could probably get by fairly well with one of the new VHF-High/UHF combo antennas.


----------



## The Hound

JSTARLING,

When you entred your info for the TVfool report, at the very bottom there is a spot to put in hieght.

Try entring 25, 30 feet, what ever hieght your antenna will be mounted at.

This may give you a better picture of what you are looking at.

But I think you are looking at something large.


----------



## jstarling82




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *The Hound* /forum/post/18143450
> 
> 
> JSTARLING,
> 
> When you entred your info for the TVfool report, at the very bottom there is a spot to put in hieght.
> 
> Try entring 25, 30 feet, what ever hieght your antenna will be mounted at.
> 
> This may give you a better picture of what you are looking at.
> 
> But I think you are looking at something large.



That's what I'm figuring. Is there anywhere on TVfool that might give an actual recommendation on an antenna? You're talking to an OTA noob here.


----------



## The Hound

I don't want to make a suggestion on an actual antenna as I'm no expert, others will chime in.

Until then here's a LINK to a site that breaks it down and offers suggestions on specific antennas.

You are looking for a red code, medium directional antenna.

Click on the medium directional link under code red of that site for antenna recomendations.

There are reviews also.

You will need a high VHF(7-13) and UHF(14-69) antenna but, a full coverage VHF/uhf antenna will work, it will just be bigger.

It could be a combination antenna with both together in one or two seperate antennas joined at a UVSJ combiner.


----------



## jtbell

The color codes used on that site are the ones that antenna manufacturers use for classifying their antennas according to type. TVFool uses a different set of color codes.


Generally speaking, the only stations you should expect to have a chance of getting with a small indoor (in-room) antenna are the ones that TVFool has marked as green.


For the yellow range, you can probably use a medium or large "outdoor" antenna in your attic, provided your roof is typical wood and shingle construction, not metal or tile. The antenna has to be somewhat larger than if you mounted it outdoors, to overcome the signal loss from going through the roof.


I don't have any direct experience with that kind of setup myself, so others will have to make specific recommendations. You have a couple of VHF stations (9 and 11) so you need an antenna that can receive those. You should avoid antennas that include the "low VHF" channels 2-6 because they're much larger than antennas that are designed for only "high VHF" (7-13) plus UHF.


If you do a search in this forum for the word "attic" you'll probably turn up some recommendations. Check their TVFool charts to make sure the signal strengths for their stations are similar to yours.


----------



## jstarling82

Thanks for the replies and the guidance. Hound, I'm looking at the link you posted, and it's providing some great ideas. I'm actually looking at the blue and red area antennae, and the TV sits more toward the other end of the house, so an amplifier is probably in order, given the distance to the set and the distance from the signal origination.


I do have my eye on something like the Terk HDTVo or Channel Master 2016 (or ANT751) for compact installation with a more discrete eve placement, but will something like that give me proper performance, or do I need to go with a full-on 50-element rooftop mount? Either way, I'm mounting this antenna outside. For me, it's less trouble than trying to feed a line down the wall, since my cable outlets are already in place and easily accessible from the crawl space.


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/18141273
> 
> 
> "Revisiting the Field Strength Requirements for DTV in the Canadian Context"



Interesting presentation. As a casual observer of the DTV circus it never ceases to amaze me that many years into a process that profoundly changed broadcast and cost billions we are still using modeling assumptions that are so grossly inaccurate. I realize modeling is part art part science but it is not as if this had not been pointed out years ago.


I have purely selfish motivation in this. As a rural OTA viewer in hilly and wooded Southern NH I would dearly love a few more DB of signal strength.


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jstarling82* /forum/post/18145105
> 
> 
> Thanks for the replies and the guidance. Hound, I'm looking at the link you posted, and it's providing some great ideas. I'm actually looking at the blue and red area antennae, and the TV sits more toward the other end of the house, so an amplifier is probably in order, given the distance to the set and the distance from the signal origination.
> 
> 
> I do have my eye on something like the Terk HDTVo or Channel Master 2016 (or ANT751) for compact installation with a more discrete eve placement, but will something like that give me proper performance, or do I need to go with a full-on 50-element rooftop mount? Either way, I'm mounting this antenna outside. For me, it's less trouble than trying to feed a line down the wall, since my cable outlets are already in place and easily accessible from the crawl space.



Another compact antenna to consider would be the Channel Master 4228HD, it is long range instead of mid range like the 2016. The 2016 is rated 35 miles high-vhf/uhf and the 4228HD is rated 45 miles high-vhf/60 miles uhf.


----------



## wildwillie6

_I assume everyone is talking about a rotator._


I see rotators recommended a lot, and they're good at what they do. My experience, however, is that if I've set the DVR to catch something while I'm away, the rotator is left in the wrong position and all I get is snow. A rotator also complicates things a lot for guests who are trying to watch TV. Therefore I use a combination of Join-Tenna plus combiner so that the antenna doesn't actually have to get rotated for any signal I have.


(Even so, I'm glad I have the rotator. Helps with diagnostics; and, because of it there was never a time when I had to get somebody on the roof, observe the signal and call out "a little to the right!" etc.)


(For that matter, I'm even glad I have an attic antenna. I ended up having to go to a rooftop antenna for best reception, but the attic antenna gets a nice signal from one station 90 degrees away from the others. It's a working part of the system even now.)


----------



## jstarling82




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *klandry7* /forum/post/18146875
> 
> 
> Another compact antenna to consider would be the Channel Master 4228HD, it is long range instead of mid range like the 2016. The 2016 is rated 35 miles high-vhf/uhf and the 4228HD is rated 45 miles high-vhf/60 miles uhf.



Best I can tell the 8-bay bowtie style is UHF only, right? I wouldn't even worry about it, but channel 9 is PBS, and if we can't get Elmo piped into our house in all his high def glory, it ain't gonna be pretty.


----------



## elguapo27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jstarling82* /forum/post/18147149
> 
> 
> Best I can tell the 8-bay bowtie style is UHF only, right? I wouldn't even worry about it, but channel 9 is PBS, and if we can't get Elmo piped into our house in all his high def glory, it ain't gonna be pretty.



The cm-4228HD has a decent VHF side. It will reach out about 45 miles depending on the signal strength from the transmitter and your line of sight. It sounds a bit unfortunate for you as you will most likely be watching Elmo and friends. If you don't want to get Elmo you can use a cm-4221HD. This is a good UHF antenna, it does somtimes pick up VHF but it is not reliable for VHF. The specs on the UHF side of the cm-4221HD are almost the same as the cm-4228HD.


----------



## blahblahblah65

Hi everyone, I'm new to antennas but I found AntennaWeb.org and it's showing me being 49.9 miles from ABC/CBS/NBC. Is there an antenna out there that doesn't cost a lot that will work that far away and pick up the stations in HD?

I wouldn't be opposed to trying to build one myself but have no idea where to start









thanks for any advice!


edit - it says:

cbs - uhf

abc - vhf

nbc - vhf


----------



## jtbell

Hi yourself.










If you want specific advice, people here prefer tvfool.com instead of antennaweb.org because it gives more detailed information about your signal strengths. Go there, enter your address or latitude/longitude, get their table of results and post a link to it here.


However, generally speaking, unless you have major hills in the way, or your're deep in a valley, or your stations are low-powered, reception at 50 miles is usually no problem with a decent antenna on the roof. A suitable antenna would probably cost $40-$80 depending on the manufacturer, plus the cost of mounting hardware and possibly installation if you don't feel up to climbing on your roof to do it.


An antenna in the attic might also work if your roof is ordinary wood and shingle construction, and would be easier (and safer!) to install yourself, but I think 50 miles might be pushing things. An antenna in the attic has to be bigger than one on the roof because the roof attenuates signals.


----------



## blahblahblah65




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/18151543
> 
> 
> Hi yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want specific advice, people here prefer tvfool.com instead of antennaweb.org because it gives more detailed information about your signal strengths. Go there, enter your address or latitude/longitude, get their table of results and post a link to it here.
> 
> 
> However, generally speaking, unless you have major hills in the way, or your're deep in a valley, or your stations are low-powered, reception at 50 miles is usually no problem with a decent antenna on the roof. A suitable antenna would probably cost $40-$80 depending on the manufacturer, plus the cost of mounting hardware and possibly installation if you don't feel up to climbing on your roof to do it.
> 
> 
> An antenna in the attic might also work if your roof is ordinary wood and shingle construction, and would be easier (and safer!) to install yourself, but I think 50 miles might be pushing things. An antenna in the attic has to be bigger than one on the roof because the roof attenuates signals.



Thanks, here's my link from tvfool.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...27eec6112e61ee 

What do you think might be a good option for me? I'm in an apartment but it has a balcony on the 2nd floor, nothing on top of my unit and nothing immediately blocking my line of site. I was planning on putting it on a pole on a tripod on the balcony.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jstarling82* /forum/post/18147149
> 
> 
> Best I can tell the 8-bay bowtie style is UHF only, right? I wouldn't even worry about it, but channel 9 is PBS, and if we can't get Elmo piped into our house in all his high def glory, it ain't gonna be pretty.



Without revisiting your TVFool report, I believe PBS 9 is your strongest station and is VHF 9 LOS. You should be able to get that station fairly well, even with all the trees and being off-axis from your other stations.


----------



## systems2000

Having a second floor balcony (facing towards channel 7), will require a VHF-High/UHF antenna setup. You have a few Line-of-Sight (LOS) stations and a lot of 1edge, but it appears you may have good signal strength. You didn't indicate a height on your report. Can you see if it makes any difference to your report by redoing the report with how high of the ground (AGL) that it would be mounted.


Some people use a bucket of cement to anchor their antenna pole in.


----------



## jstarling82




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jstarling82* /forum/post/18145105
> 
> 
> Thanks for the replies and the guidance. Hound, I'm looking at the link you posted, and it's providing some great ideas. I'm actually looking at the blue and red area antennae, and the TV sits more toward the other end of the house, so an amplifier is probably in order, given the distance to the set and the distance from the signal origination.
> 
> 
> I do have my eye on something like the Terk HDTVo or Channel Master 2016 (or ANT751) for compact installation with a more discrete eve placement, but will something like that give me proper performance, or do I need to go with a full-on 50-element rooftop mount? Either way, I'm mounting this antenna outside. For me, it's less trouble than trying to feed a line down the wall, since my cable outlets are already in place and easily accessible from the crawl space.



Wanted to follow up on this post with some thoughts I've had following a few days of research and reading. It seems to me that if I'm going to be mounting an antenna on the roof, it's the same amount of effort whether I mount a discrete antenna that may work or if I mount a long-range Hi-VHF/UHF on the chimney that I know will work.


So, along that vein, I'm now looking in the red/blue range at a few options that I'd like some input on. I'm specifically looking at the Winegard HD7015 in the red zone and the CM3020 (or 3018?) in the blue. Would these be viable options for me, if mounted to a chimney above the roof peak? Is the CM3020 really preferable to the HD7015, given the price?

TVFool for reference.


----------



## systems2000

I use a 15 year old CM3020 (at 70+ miles, on top of a 55' tower) to recieve 2-edge reception. It has a high-gain channel master pre-amp (0265DSB) that is very similar to the CM7777. I also have a Channel Master 3414 DA to feed all the sets and VCR's.


I know of another user in Winchester, VA that uses a CM3020 also.


I receive stations from Altoona, Baltimore, D.C., York/Red Lion, and most of the LOS stations up and down the Valley I live in. I have lots of multi-path, military, and FM issues too.


The CM3020 is a full range antenna and will be very large, but if you have the room, it could be an option. There is some information (that I can't link to currently) about antenna performance comparisons with the CM3020.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *blahblahblah65* /forum/post/18151609
> 
> 
> Thanks, here's my link from tvfool.
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...27eec6112e61ee
> 
> What do you think might be a good option for me? I'm in an apartment but it has a balcony on the 2nd floor, nothing on top of my unit and nothing immediately blocking my line of site. I was planning on putting it on a pole on a tripod on the balcony.



Given the constraint re your balcony, the RCA ANT751 (aka EZHD) would

be a good choice for a small, medium performance Hi-VHF/UHF antenna:
http://www.rcaaccessories.com/rcaacc...DUCT_ID=ANT751 

ANT751 was derived from the W-G HD7000R, except the 100-in long

elements were resized to 28-in, since Ch2-6 is not needed in most areas.

Only 30-inches long (plus J-Mount), Hi-VHF and UHF performance should

be about the same:
http://www.winegarddirect.com/pdf/HD7000R.pdf 


CM4228HD 8-Bay antenna would have even higher UHF gain, and is only

somewhat less effective for the Hi-VHF channels. There is even a simple

mod to improve performance:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html 


Or separate UHF and Hi-VHF antennas, such as A-D C5 for Hi-VHF and

a 4-Bay for UHF, combined with a UVSJ VHF/UHF Combiner.


A DIY alternative would be to build an oversized Super-4-Bay Antenna, without

a reflector to optimize Hi-VHF reception:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bay/super 
http://www.frontiernet.net/~mclapp/A.../diagrams.html 


If those are too big, alternative choices will have significantly lower gain on both

UHF and Hi-VHF, such as the Winegard HD1080....which may or may NOT work....


----------



## blahblahblah65




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *systems2000* /forum/post/18152515
> 
> 
> Having a second floor balcony (facing towards channel 7), will require a VHF-High/UHF antenna setup. You have a few Line-of-Sight (LOS) stations and a lot of 1edge, but it appears you may have good signal strength. You didn't indicate a height on your report. Can you see if it makes any difference to your report by redoing the report with how high of the ground (AGL) that it would be mounted.
> 
> 
> Some people use a bucket of cement to anchor their antenna pole in.



Right now I'm planning on about 17 feet up, which is this:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...27eeaee7fb8353 


I think I could go to 21 though if that would help things, which is this:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...27ee67298a04ef 


no idea how to interpret that data so thanks for any help!


edit - also, is there a shop that is generally thought to be the cheapest to purchase from?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> no idea how to interpret that data so thanks for any help!



Just compare the before and after NM figures. What a difference KRCB-DT channel 23 PBS (22.1) makes with 4 ft more in height. From -7.0 NM to 12.7 NM. Thats an incredibly huge difference !


----------



## elguapo27

Does anyone have any experience with a TB-105 alignment bearing with a Channel Master 9521A rotator? I am having trouble getting them to line up correctly with a 1 1/4" mast or a 2" mast. Any ideas of what could be going wrong. The mast seems to be 1/4" to 1/8" to close to the mast side of the bearing.


----------



## blahblahblah65

Thanks guys. Is there a shop where you recommend purchasing from? I was looking at the links above for building one and it looks a bit over my head with all the graphs etc.


----------



## rabbit73

I entered tb-105 in google search box at top of page. Here are two of many that came up:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=319 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...546066&page=44 posts 1314 & 1315


----------



## b1gmoose




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/18163226
> 
> 
> I entered tb-105 in google search box at top of page. Here are two of many that came up:
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=319
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...546066&page=44 posts 1314 & 1315



That might explain why my CM rotator burnt up after a month or so after installing the TB105 and having 6' of mast above the bearing.


I just used the strong arm rotator and a pipe wrench from the base of the mast I built from Home Depot..


Just moved to a new place, so I'll have to wait for the ground to thaw before putting up the new CM1630 mast. I'll test fit the new rotator and old TB105 and make sure there is no binding this time . No beer on this install  might help with alignments.


~ryan


----------



## jstarling82




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *elguapo27* /forum/post/18147281
> 
> 
> The cm-4228HD has a decent VHF side. It will reach out about 45 miles depending on the signal strength from the transmitter and your line of sight. It sounds a bit unfortunate for you as you will most likely be watching Elmo and friends. If you don't want to get Elmo you can use a cm-4221HD. This is a good UHF antenna, it does somtimes pick up VHF but it is not reliable for VHF. The specs on the UHF side of the cm-4221HD are almost the same as the cm-4228HD.



I'm currently revisiting this idea, based on additional information confirmed here . It seems that if I get myself an 8-bay (deep range), I could get by with an attic mount, since the elevation brings most of my channels into yellow-zone range. It also means it could be mounted directly above the tv, probably eliminating the need for an amplifier.


Ok, I know I'm missing something. Anybody care to chime in?


----------



## Cornhustler

Click on the picture link inside of this post to see how I am using a TB-105 and 9521A together. I'm not sure about the diameter of the mast, but I probably got it at Radio Shack.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=#post14275194 


It's been up about 5 years and so far no problems.


----------



## elguapo27

Thanks guys. With the abundance of knowledge I have recieved here I think I got figured out. I will try it this weekend. Thanks all.


----------



## mrraffer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *blahblahblah65* /forum/post/18162719
> 
> 
> Thanks guys. Is there a shop where you recommend purchasing from? I was looking at the links above for building one and it looks a bit over my head with all the graphs etc.



I bought one recently online from Solid Signal and was happy with the price and how quickly it arrived.


A couple comments and questions I have about your installation:


1) Do other people have antennas on their balconies where you live? It seems to me that it might be an issue with the property owners. Hate to see you invest time and money and have them tell you to take it down.


2) You will also need a length of RG-6 cable, a mast, and a matching transformer in addition to the antenna. How will you route the cable into the apartment? The owners may get upset if you drill holes through the wall. You really should install a ground block as well since the antenna amounts to a bit of a lightning rod. A ground wire needs to go from the block to an earth ground. This too might be a problem to accomplish given your situation.


3) Do you have a metal railing? If so, it might interfere with your reception. I'd suggest mounting the antenna at least 2-3 feet above the railing.


4) Lastly, you may want to buy an indoor antenna from Radio Shack and at least give it a try. If it doesn't work for you, I've found they are very good about taking things back as long as you save all of the packing, etc. Although an outdoor antenna is certainly preferable, you live in a relatively strong signal area and might get away with an indoor one. It would be a lot simpler solution if it worked.


My two cents. Good luck with your setup.


----------



## systems2000

Here are pictures of my homemade Dry Bearing setup: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post15946674 


Detail information discussion starts on this page:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...81623&page=289


----------



## holl_ands

Fry's Electronics is in your area: www.frys.com 


Don't forget to calculate shipping costs before you compare:
www.solidsignal.com 
www.summitsource.com 
www.starkelectronic.com 
www.warrenelectronics.com 
www.beachaudio.com 
www.antonline.com 
www.newegg.com 
www.amazon.com 


The ever popular Froogle and Pricegrabber search engines compare

prices with shipping cost and taxes included (be sure to double check):
www.google.com/products/ 
www.pricegrabber.com 


PS: Although some networks are strong; FOX, CW and MyN are fairly weak

and will need a lot more than a simple indoor RabbitEars/Loop.

BTW: I think the big change in KRCB station (your 4th weakest PBS) is

some sort of artifact in the TVFool simulation program, rather than reality.


"NM" (Noise Margin) generally tells you how much antenna gain you

"need" for minimally useful service....but you also need to subtract out

other losses, such as indoor loss (10-20 dB). And any remaining positive

margin is desirable for long term reliability....


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/18141273
> 
> *Pascal Marcoux* presented a paper at the IEEE Broadcast Technology Symposium in Oct 2009,
> *"Revisiting the Field Strength Requirements for DTV in the Canadian Context"*, but
> 
> apparently it hasn't yet been published, other than the fol. VU-graph presentation:
> http://www.ccbe.ca/Downloads/CCBE200...ngDTVminFS.pdf
> 
> There is probably a lot of "specsmanship" going on here. For example, HBU-22
> 
> "specs" simply say 4.1 dBd Hi-VHF and 7.3 (not 7.2) dBd UHF Gain without saying
> 
> which channel nor whether it was guaranteed minimum (fat chance), some sort of
> 
> "average", "typical" (whatever that is supposed to mean) or the max Gain found
> 
> somewhere in the band (very likely).....YMMV....
> 
> And since Marcoux didn't explain what HE was measuring, perhaps it was the
> 
> WORST Gain found somewhere in the band.....maybe, maybe not....YMMV....
> 
> 
> Marcoux's presentation was briefly mentioned in Doug Lung's column in TV TECHNOLOGY mag:
> http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/90786
> 
> 
> It includes test results on several antennas: an (unidentified) 4-Bay Bowtie w Reflector,
> 
> Antennacraft HBU-22 Hi-VHF/UHF Yagi, Terk HDTVi UHF LPDA + VHF RabbitEars and
> 
> one of the (unidentified) RCA Square Panels (such as ANT1650, et. al.).....which
> 
> should NOT be confused with the ANT2000 Smart Antenna.....
> 
> 
> WOW, didn't know the Terk HDTVi was such a terrible Hi-VHF and UHF [email protected]!#!
> 
> And (as expected), fergit about using RCA Square Panel Omni antennas....
> 
> 
> These are probably the worst examples to illustrate huge discrepancies between
> 
> manufacturer "specs" (such as they are) and actual performance.....YMMV....



Links to some of the references cited in the *Marcoux Presentation* can be found here:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show....php?p=1062381 


Links include papers by *Dr. Bendov et. al.* re parameters *"missing" from the ILLR*

propagation prediction program, esp. the *Effect of VSWR on EVM* (Error Vector Magnitude).


Also includes links to info re *Height Gain* and *Indoor Propagation Loss*.


----------



## jccsup




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jstarling82* /forum/post/18145105
> 
> 
> Thanks for the replies and the guidance. Hound, I'm looking at the link you posted, and it's providing some great ideas. I'm actually looking at the blue and red area antennae, and the TV sits more toward the other end of the house, so an amplifier is probably in order, given the distance to the set and the distance from the signal origination.
> 
> 
> I do have my eye on something like the Terk HDTVo or Channel Master 2016 (or ANT751) for compact installation with a more discrete eve placement, but will something like that give me proper performance, or do I need to go with a full-on 50-element rooftop mount? Either way, I'm mounting this antenna outside. For me, it's less trouble than trying to feed a line down the wall, since my cable outlets are already in place and easily accessible from the crawl space.



I installed the CM 2016 last weekend just the way you are thinking, on the side of the chimney just above the roof pitch. I previously had a Radio Shack U-75. Since the chimney is toward the back of the home, this installation hides the antenna from the street view while still being over the roof pitch. I am using the CM-7777 amp with RG-6 cable.


I live between 2 markets, Norfolk (30 miles from towers) and Richmond (55 miles from towers) and my goal was to receive programming from both markets. The U-75 was pointed toward Richmond and worked very well pulling in the Richmond UHF stations, but the Norfolk UHF stations coming in on the back side broke up constantly due to multi-path issues. Also VHF from Richmond was non existent and but was acceptable from Norfolk.


I purchases the CM 2016 with the hope it would pull in the VHF NBC station in Richmond, but it did not. What I did find was the UHF reception from the 55 mile away stations was just as good as the U-75. The CM2016 antenna did not have the multi-path issues from the closer stations. There was one Norfolk class-A station that was viewable on the U-75 but not the CM2016, but that station was just a translator for one of the full power stations that I could already receive well.


What I believe is the CM2016 UHF elements are doing a better job rejecting the close Norfolk signals which are now being received by the VHF elements. Instead of 90-100% signal for the Norfolk stations on the backside of the U-75 I now have 85-90% but without the multi-path interference I had before.


For my particular installation the antenna worked well and performed better than the 35 mile range advertised.


----------



## systems2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/18167760
> 
> 
> Links to some of the references cited in the *Marcoux Presentation* can be found here:
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show....php?p=1062381
> 
> 
> Links include papers by *Dr. Bendov et. al.* re parameters *"missing" from the ILLR*
> 
> propagation prediction program, esp. the *Effect of VSWR on EVM* (Error Vector Magnitude).
> 
> 
> Also includes links to info re *Height Gain* and *Indoor Propagation Loss*.



I find the following sentences (from the TVTechnology link) very disturbing:



> Quote:
> The finding that consumer antennas have gain 2.9 dB below specification (on average) should come as no surprise. "Low noise amplifiers (LNAs)" may not help as measurements showed only 2 out of 11 worked as specified.



and



> Quote:
> Additional signal strength is needed to cover more man-made noise than expected.



And of course, the last sentence of the next to last paragraph says it all.


> Quote:
> Now that TV broadcasting has transitioned to digital, signal saturation may become much more important than coverage contours.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jccsup* /forum/post/18168591
> 
> 
> I live between 2 markets, Norfolk (30 miles from towers) and Richmond (55 miles from towers) and my goal was to receive programming from both markets.



Try the Winegard HD 1080. It's F/B ratio and pattern seems ideal for your location.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/18170814
> 
> 
> Try the Winegard HD 1080. It's F/B ratio and pattern seems ideal for your location.



That makes no sense at all:
http://www.winegarddirect.com/pdf/hd-1080-spec.pdf 

*jccsup:*

I looked at some of your old posts, but I didn't see a * www.TVFool.com * report.

Could you provide a link to your results?


From what I've seen using just your zipcode (post office) location,

you need a moderate gain Hi-VHF/UHF antenna if you want to receive

Richmond. HD-1080 would be inadequate, as was the CM2016.


You'll need an antenna with higher gain than those on the Hi-VHF channels.

What you need is a larger Combo Hi-VHF/UHF antenna (e.g. U-75) and either

a rotator, or a two-antenna configuration with the CM2016 aimed at Norfolk.

Combine unamplified CM2016 onto the coax, AFTER the Preamp connected

to the new antenna (use a DC PASS Satellite RF Splitter/Combiner).

If this causes multipath problems, you may have to run separate coax runs

and use an RF A/B Switch.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *elguapo27* /forum/post/18162601
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any experience with a TB-105 alignment bearing with a Channel Master 9521A rotator?



The center point of rotation of the TB-105 does not match the center point of rotation of the CM-9521. The TB-105 center point of rotation is further away from the mast than the CM-9521. It may be possible to put a spacer between the mast and the CM-9521 to bring them into alignment.


I still haven’t gotten around to:


> Quote:
> For a bearing to work correctly its center point of rotation must match that of the rotor. One of these days I am going measure the mount dimension and the mount-to-bearing dimension on the rotor, draw it up in CAD and take the bearing to a metal milling shop and have them cut the bearing to match the CM rotor.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> That makes no sense at all:
> http://www.winegarddirect.com/pdf/hd-1080-spec.pdf



I think hes trying to say the vhf max gain is flipped in direction to the uhf max gain. Not good for most, but beneficial to some. I have plenty of failed GH with NAROD (and a CM2016 clone) models that do the same thing. It actually seems much easier to get the gain in the opposite direction than the same direction, heh.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/18172905
> 
> 
> That makes no sense at all:
> http://www.winegarddirect.com/pdf/hd-1080-spec.pdf



Actually, it does.


I ran a tvfool report on his location as given under the user name. The HD1080 has UHF side lobes that happen to fall on the Norfolk stations while the antenna aimed is aimed at Richmond.


This is better than the 2016 because the F/B ratio of the 2016 on UHF is too high.


----------



## 300ohm

I havent seen the pattern for the CM2016, but based on my CM2016 clone modeling (and oddly CM specs state multi-directional for vhf-hi), it too may have higher vhf-hi gain in the opposite direction. But the HD 1080 has two, as opposed to one, vhf-hi radiators (the longer reflectors), so it probably has the higher reverse vhf-hi gain.


----------



## holl_ands

HD-1080 UHF sidelobes appear to be very low gain...might not be enough

for Norfolk reception AND the main lobe will amplify multipath interference.

The above spec sheet doesn't have enough resolution to see the Gain scale.

Attached is a readable excerpt I extracted on an earlier date.


And as mentioned above, Hi-VHF gain towards Richmond is very low, with

the max VHF gain poking out the BACK of this ill-designed "antenna"

being only in the range of -4 to -5 dBi (worse than RabbitEars)....leaving

much less than this directed towards Richmond....again opening the

door to multipath....although not as bad as the UHF situation...


Of course, actual performance may not match the spec sheet...might be worse...


PS: In the two antenna solution I described above (existing U-75 and CM2016)

a UVSJ UHF/VHF Combiner/Splitter could be used on the output of the CM2016

to filter out the VHF signal if it is suspected of causing problems on Hi-VHF.


And worse case, separate coax runs with an A/B RF Switch would be needed.....


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/18178213
> 
> 
> HD-1080 UHF sidelobes appear to be very low gain...might not be enough
> 
> for Norfolk reception AND the main lobe will amplify multipath interference.
> 
> The above spec sheet doesn't have enough resolution to see the Gain scale......



What a lot of people don't realize, when they look at those unlabeled polar graphs, is that the value of the outer ring is equal to the maximum gain of the antenna, so on a graph for a minimally constructed antenna, that big lobe on the boresight might only represent two or three dB of gain, and what appear, visually, to be substantial sidelobes and backlobes might be depicting negative gain on those axes.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/18179071
> 
> 
> What a lot of people don't realize, when they look at those unlabeled polar graphs, is that the value of the outer ring is equal to the maximum gain of the antenna, so on a graph for a minimally constructed antenna, that big lobe on the boresight might only represent two or three dB of gain, and what appear, visually, to be substantial sidelobes and backlobes might be depicting negative gain on those axes.



Just remember that antenna gain does not have to be positive in order for the signal to be useful.


As long as the resulting signal at the tuner is of adequate power and is free enough from defects it still works.


Most people have a device in their pocket that they use every day that has an antenna with a significant negative gain. Somehow, they still work....


Positive or high positive gain is not the end-all for reception under many conditions when there is adequate signal.


----------



## Vipfreak

I think that's why I'm afraid of wasting $45 on an RCA ant1650 powered antenna only to have it not get anything I couldn't with my current free one.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/18179708
> 
> 
> Just remember that antenna gain does not have to be positive in order for the signal to be useful.
> 
> 
> As long as the resulting signal at the tuner is of adequate power and is free enough from defects it still works.
> 
> 
> Most people have a device in their pocket that they use every day that has an antenna with a significant negative gain. Somehow, they still work....
> 
> 
> Positive or high positive gain is not the end-all for reception under many conditions when there is adequate signal.



I'll second that. I once put a Terk "tube" shaped antenna on top of a building that is half way between Baltimore and Washington, DC, and it does a yeomanlike job of supplying broadcast DTV signal from seventeen television stations to 47 TVs, but "blah(etc)" is trying to develop off-air channel 12 coming to him over a one-edge signal path with a calculated field strength of -62dBm, and in an apartment, to boot, so I expect that he'll need better VHF performance than that Winegard HD-1080 can give him.


----------



## holl_ands

Marcoux VU-graphs (see post 10934), reported a measured Gain of -20.2 dBd for Hi-VHF

and -6.8 dBd for UHF, so I think we should avoid the RCA square antennas.....

[Except for perhaps the ANT2000 Smart Antenna, which is a different design.....]


Although relatively flat, terrain around James City/County near Williamsburg, VA

still varies +/- 50 feet....and we still haven't seen his TVFool results....

There was a significant difference between 10-ft and 25-ft at the zipcode location.


----------



## SemiChemE

I have a Winegard YA-1713 antenna that I use to pick up Channels 7, 11, and 13 from NYC. While WPIX-11 comes in pretty well (SS > 50%), WNET-13 is marginal (~30%) and WABC-7 only shows up with enhancement. That I get any signal at all is quite remarkable as I am 2nd Edge diffraction and over 60 miles from the broadcast towers (see http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...27ee879aaf9b8e ).


In any case, I would like to improve my signal if at all possible and I have heard that it is relatively easy to add elements to the YA-1713. So I am looking for advice about how to go about adding elements.


For my first attempt, I took an old unused FM Yagi antenna and removed the front section which consisted of 6 elements each spaced 14 inches apart. The elements on both antenna's appear to be 3/8" tubing, although the boom on the FM antenna is a 1" round tube, while the YA-1713 has a square boom. I cut the elements down to the same size as the YA-1713 elements (24 1/8" end to end) and placed the antenna section in front of the YA-1713 (held in place by a small board). This adds 6 elements and 84 inches to the YA-1713.


So, what kind of gain increase (if any) would I expect to see with this arrangement? When I tested it, I saw no clear change in the Signal Strength as recorded by the signal meter from my tuner (still around 30% for 13 and 50% for 11), however, the signal seemed to fluctuate less and I definitely experienced fewer drop outs. I'm pretty sure the addition is providing a benefit, although perhaps in rejecting multipath rather than increasing gain. Does this seem reasonable?


Finally, I have a few questions about what to do next... Currently, the two antenna sections are electrically isolated (connected only by an insulating board). Should I add an electrical contact? (Note that In both cases the elements are in electrical contact with their respective booms.) Also, I notice that the elements on the YA-1713 have various spacings ranging from 8 15/16" up to 14 13/16". Thus, while the 14" spacings on the extension are in the right ballpark, they are probably not optimal. So what are the optimal spacings for adding 6 additional elements to a YA-1713? Lastly, what kind of benefit would I get by adjusting the element spacing (which would be a lot of work)? If it's only a few tenths of dB, it's probably not worth it, but if it's >1dB I may try it.


Anyway, thanks in advance to anyone who answers my questions.


----------



## holl_ands

Since I already had run 4nec2 modeling exercises for my son's YA-1713,

I did some runs with adding 6 (and also 3) Directors, using your dimensions

(taken from a recycled FM antenna with shortened elements).

Yup, there is a moderate 2 dB Gain increase across Ch7-11, close to "optimum".

If the boom length is doubled, the Gain "should" increase nearly 3 dB.


Results for Ch12-13 are indeterminate due to known problems trying to

model the YA-1713 (and apparently other LogYagi antennas).

FWIW, the extended boom didn't seem to be helping...if at all:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/wgya1713 

All of the Extended Boom plots can be found here, plus the 4nec2 file.


No, I'm not going to attempt any optimization....esp for a few tenths of a dB.


The two boom sections do NOT have to electrically connected together,

nor will it make any significant performance difference.


BTW: As described in my WG YA-1713 folder cited above, I verified via

On-Air tests that there was *NO LOSS across Ch13* as found in NEC models.

Here is another On-Air test (from a Dipole to either a YA-1713 or a DIY LPDA)

which verified that there is *NO LOSS across Ch13*:
http://www.aa6g.org/Lp/tests.html


----------



## Larry Kenney

Here's a situation I'll toss out to all of you guys, Holl_ands, Tower Guy, 300ohm, AntAltMike, et.al...


My TV Fool results are here:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...27ee2edfdb7012 


With a Y-10-7-13 and an old model CM4228 I can get every station shown in the list that's stronger than -7.5 dB NM / -98.3 dBm power (except for two, channels 4 and 5, which aren't on the air yet). So reception of the stations is no problem. Recording them is.


I have a Dish Vip-622 DVR which works great for recording OTA, but I have to make sure the antennas are pointed in the right direction at the right time. What I'd like to find is an antenna that will get at least the closer stations - green and yellow sections - without having to use the rotor. Is there such an omni-directional antenna available?


I have the antenna combination mentioned above connected to one side and Antennas Direct C5 and SR-15 antennas coupled together connected to the other side of an A/B switch that feeds the DVR. With the C5/SR-15 I get some of the coverage I'm looking for. With that combination I get all of the stations 24.9 db NM/-66 dBm power or stronger... all of the Sutro stations (267 degrees) and Mt. San Bruno stations (178 degrees), except the low power channel 28, plus I get 36 and 51 from 120 degrees. I think I've got about the best arrangement I can put together, but you guys might have some better ideas, so I'm tossing this out to you to see what you have to offer.


Larry

SF


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/18192909
> 
> 
> What I'd like to find is an antenna that will get at least the closer stations - green and yellow sections - without having to use the rotor.



What a challenge! The data is clear, the goal is clear, the solution isn't clear.


I'd start with a channel 12 Jointenna from Amazon.com, couple 12 to the 4228 and forget about recording everything else.


If you can solder, take the Jointenna apart and solder the F connectors to the circuit board before you break something internally.


----------



## holl_ands

*Tower Guy:*

Since he gets Ch12 using his "local" antenna system, why would you

recommend a Ch12 JoinTenna on the "distant" antenna system????

Are you relying on the CM4228 to pick up Ch7...and also Ch9/10

(I don't know...might be too weak)???

And he might lose some of the UHF stations due to the narrower

beamwidth.....

*Larry Kenney:*

Any comments re Tower Guy's recommendation???


YIKES!!! Those are very strong signals coming from Sutro Towers!!!!

I applaud your current setup.


Did you try an RF Combiner in place of the A/B Switch???

Yes, it will result in a 4 dB loss of sensitivity, but might pick up

SOME (most?) of the stations the CM4228 is pointed towards.

You could also use a set of three A/B Switches as a Bypass

when you want maximum sensitivity (except for loss in switches).


If you have one distant station you want to be "record ready",

you could substitute a JoinTenna or a Single Channel Pass Filter

on the "distant" system instead of the RF Combiner.....with a

3 RF Switch Bypass.


You would for sure need a Variable RF Attenuator on the "local" coax

so the strong signals don't capture the tuner's AutoGainControl.

That might be a good idea anyway.....


A similar arrangement could be done on just the Hi-VHF Antennas,

trying to receive Ch9 (PBS4) & 10 (ABC2) at same time as Ch7&12.

You might have more margin to play with....start by inserting an

RF Combiner on JUST the "distant" coax to see if the extra loss

can be tolerated....


If you have margin to spare, alternatively you might be able to

simply use a lower Gain Hi-VHF Antenna...one with a low F/B Ratio.

Are you interested in a simple DIY project to see if a simple Dipole

radiation pattern is sufficient? The beam would be directed towards

the weakest stations at 52-deg (Ch9/10)....resulting in the reverse

beam being directed towards 232-deg...which roughly splits the

difference between 1Edge Ch12 (178-deg) and LOS Ch7 (267-deg).

Final tweaking may be needed to move the reverse beam 10-20 deg

more towards Ch12, which still leaves Ch9/10 near the max gain.

A *Circular Loop* has more gain than a Folded Dipole, see instructions:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops 


Comprendez?? Or do you need a diagram of the 3 Switch Bypass????

Can we presume you don't care about Ch2-6???


----------



## Larry Kenney

Thanks for the replies. I tried the Join-tenna and it worked great for 12. Got a signal indication of 33 db, SNR 100%, but I lost all of the UHF stations except those on Sutro Tower... no 27, 36, 41 or 51... so that's why I went to the combination of the C5 and SR-15.


Strong signals from Sutro? Yes... the tower is just 3/4 of a mile away, but surprisingly, adjacent channel reception doesn't seem to be a problem. I receive 35 and 46 from 65 miles away when there are stations on Sutro on 34 and 45!


We can forget channels 2 to 6. There's nothing there now, and only LP stations and translators are due to go on there.


I receive channels 9, 10, 21, 25, 35 and 46 from Walnut Grove using the 10 element yagi and 4228 combo. Signals vary from an average of 23 dB SNR for the strongest (KMAX 21) to 16 dB for the weakest (KVIE 9 and KOVR 25). The others are in between those numbers. I don't get any of the Walnut Grove stations on the C5/SR-15 combo.


I tried the RF Combiner in place of the A-B switch, and the results were pretty dismal. The antennas all seemed to interfere with each other, and as I turned the VHF yagi and 4228, it changed my reception of the stations from both Mt. San Bruno (178 degrees) and the South Bay (120 degrees) and the signals from Walnut Grove (52 degrees) were about 2 to 3 dB weaker... enough to take them frequently below the cliff edge.


I'd appreciate an explanation of using three A/B Switches used as a Bypass for maximum sensitivity. That sounds interesting!


I'll read the information on the Folded Dipole and Circular Loop. Looks like there's lot of information there to absorb.


Larry

SF


----------



## holl_ands

Here are the three and single RF Switch configurations...

Variable RF Attenuator reduces the signal level of the "local" antennas.

If you decide to use the single RF Switch configuration, set low atten. for

best "local" reception and hunt around for best "distant" reception setting.

You might even find your "local" reception benefits from some attenuation,

since the 3rd Order Intermod noise is reduced 3 dB for every 1 dB of loss.


I also attached the PowerPoint slide in the zip file so you can change it.

 

3 RF Switch Bypass.zip 30.3330078125k . file


----------



## Larry Kenney

I've saved the jpg file. I'll try it and see what happens.


Larry


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/18196242
> 
> *Tower Guy:*
> 
> Since he gets Ch12 using his "local" antenna system, why would you
> 
> recommend a Ch12 JoinTenna on the "distant" antenna system????
> 
> Are you relying on the CM4228 to pick up Ch7...and also Ch9/10
> 
> (I don't know...might be too weak)???



I guess that I missed that he had a local antenna that worked for NBC.


And yes, I expected the 4228 to work on 7 but not 9 and 10.


----------



## holl_ands

*tballister* posted an ON-AIR *Ch7/8/13* comparison of CM4228HD

(best UHF & Hi-VHF) to A-D DB8, WG 8000HD and Kosmic SuperQuad,

using A-D C5 and Antennacraft Y10-7-13 as Hi-VHF "standards":
http://www.antennahacks.com/Comparis...F_Shootout.htm 

Kosmic SuperQuad is a super-sized 4-Bay+Reflector Screen with

Whisker Length=9.75-in, Bowtie Separation=9.5-in and Tine Separation=5-in:
http://www.dtvusaforum.com/dtv-hdtv-...ay-bowtie.html 


Companion ON-AIR *UHF* 8-Bay comparison:
http://www.antennahacks.com/Comparis..._vs_HD8800.htm 


Some other comparisons:
http://www.antennahacks.com/AntennaComparison.htm


----------



## Larry Kenney

Those spectrum analyzer pictures are great for showing how the various antennas compare. Looks like I made some good decisions with the Y-10-7-13 and the CM4228... they're both winners! For a compact antenna, the new C5 does quite well, too.


Thanks for sharing all of those links with us. I've bookmarked the main page for future reference.


Larry

SF


----------



## holl_ands

tballister determined A-D C5 had about 6 dBi Gain for low freqs (e.g. Ch7)

and 3-4 dBi for hi freqs (e.g. Ch13). [Assuming Y-10-7-13 had 10 dBi Gain.]

This is quite a bit less than A-D spec of "Max 8.4 dBi":
http://www.antennasdirect.com/C5-Cle...V-antenna.html 
http://www.antennasdirect.com/pdf/C5...structions.pdf 


FWIW: When I modeled a Hi-VHF Loop with Loop Reflector, I found

Net/Raw Gain was 7-8 dBi (Ch7) dropping to about 6 dBi (Ch13):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/looprefl


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> For a compact antenna, the new C5 does quite well, too.



Build your own from holl_ands plan for about $15 like jpasedena did. The trick for a smooth loop is just expanding the coil straight from the package.


----------



## rabbit73

300ohm:


Thanks for posting the loop image from our north-of-the-border friends. I couldn't figure out were it was previously posted until I did a Google image search.
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=112675 


Where do I read the net gain?


----------



## jpasadena




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/18235489
> 
> 
> Where do I read the net gain?



We estimated the net gain to be about 7 dBi across the VHF-hi band.


An update on the build: If I had to do it over again, I would probably go with a 48x48 inch reflector screen, and could use a wider mesh, e.g. 3x2 in. for less weight and wind load. The bigger screen seems to help for those stations that are just at the margin of locking in.


----------



## 300ohm

First off jpasdena, as the name implies, is in California, heh.



> Quote:
> Where do I read the net gain?



SWR mismatch loss is .51 dbi at SWR = 2.0, and 1.25 dbi at SWR = 3.0. So, just subtract the SWR mismatch loss from the Raw Gain to get Net Gain. (I keep a rough SWR mismatch loss sheet handy to quickly estimate Net Gain without going thru the computation, heh) Keep in mind, most commercial antenna gain figures in the past have been posted in Raw Gain terms.


The formula for Net Gain (which is always less than Raw Gain) is :


NetGain = RawGain+10*log(4*Zr*Zo/((Zr+Zo)^2+Zi^2)


Where;


Zo= the impedence of the feedpoint your designing your antenna to have. Usually this is something that matches a feedline like 300ohm, 75 ohm, 50 ohm...


Zr= the pure resistive part of the total impedence


Zi= the reactive part of the impedence (either +inductive or -capacitive).


----------



## rabbit73

jpasadena & 300ohm:


Thanks for the prompt reply with further info. It looks like a winner, and the price is right!


----------



## systems2000

This morning, I was looking for the photos of the one I built, but couldn't find them.


I've been happy with mine. I use it for two stations (8 & 12) that are 34+ miles away LOS and at 24 & 42dB NM. It is mounted on my 48' tower and through about 100' of coax (unamplified).


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> and the price is right!



The prices for the 1/4" copper tubing and gray electrical pvc are down almost 50% at Home Depot from what they were 18 months ago.


----------



## xbanderradio

About 15 years ago when I moved to a new condo, I inherited two FM antennas that appear to be an AntennaCraft FM6 and an FMSS. Both have baluns attached. Each antenna rig has a 2-sided plastic clip, one side round (holding the balun) and one side square that clips to the square antenna boom. I know the plastic clips did not come with the antenna, but probably with the baluns. Can anyone provide a lead to a supplier for this clip or a balun with the clip included.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I know the plastic clips did not come with the antenna



Are you sure about that ? I would give Antennacraft a call.
http://www.antennacraft.net/FM.html


----------



## holl_ands

Guidance for minimum *Stacking Distance for a UHF antenna on top of a VHF antenna*

as well as stacking identical antennas can be found here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=14593948 


I used 4nec2 to analyze the impact to Gain, SWR and F/R Ratio for the fol. antenna pairs:


a) CM4228 UHF 8-Bay Bowtie on top of K6STI's 5-Element (Full Band Optimized) Hi-VHF Yagi.


b) kgb's 13-Element (Full Band Optimized) UHF Yagi on top of K6STI's 5-Element Hi-VHF Yagi.


Bottom line: 1-3 dB impact to F/R Ratio at 4-ft separation, reducing to 
Impacts to Gain and SWR were minimal, even at closer separations:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/stacked 

Close to the top of the webpage, you can navigate to individual antenna 4nec2 results.


I didn't use UHF 91XG 4nec2 file due to the extremely large number of wire segments

and difficulties trying to get the file to "converge???" reliability....

And I didn't use Hi-VHF YA-1713 4nec2 file due to SWR problems with both Log-Yagi's I've modeled.


PS: Next, I'll analyze the "optimum" horizontal and vertical spacing for identical antennas.


----------



## systems2000

Great work holl_ands!


I can't image where most of us would be without you. Thank you for the "*HUGE*" contributions you've made.


----------



## holl_ands

I humbly thank you.....but wait....there's more.....


[As long as the beginning of the file names are different, I can run TWO

4nec2 simulations simultaneously whilst plotting results....triple core proc.]

[Anything with a Screen Grid is gonna take 30-60+ minutes.....]


A 4nec2 analysis of *EV's Kosmic SuperQuad* (9.75x9.5) can be found here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=18265520 


Includes comparison of fol. antennas:

a) CM4228 8-Bay (original, not the new one)

b) Kosmic SuperQuad (9.75x9.5) 4-Bay Bowtie

c) mclapp M4 (9.5x9) Super-4-Bay Bowtie

d) CM4221 (8.5x8.9) (per actual measurements)

e) UTube 4-Bay Defect (~7.5x5.75) (per bobblin5 and makeTV videos)
*[PLEASE MAKE SOMETHING OTHER THAN THE UTUBE DEFECT!!!!!]*


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> [As long as the beginning of the file names are different, I can run TWO 4nec2 simulations simultaneously whilst plotting results....triple core proc.]



Yep, and that also works with single core processors, (as long theres enough memory without swapping, which then would take an eternity, heh).


----------



## Larry Kenney

Holl_lands and others interested...


I tried the three switch combining arrangement you proposed. In some ways it's an improvement, but I loose some of the more distant stations in the summed output due to the loss in the couplers I suspect.


Distant signals and locals going right through changed very little in strength, as expected, but when I switched in the summed signals, I lost several dB and that was enough to put four weaker distant stations below the cliff edge. The variable attenuator didn't seem to make much difference at all on the distant stations. It only made the locals weaker, so I took it out of the circuit.


One improvement when using the summed signal output is that I get more stations total. While I can get them either with the local or distant positions, as before, I do lose the weaker ones in the summed output.


It's definitely no worse than before... I still have the same local and distance feeds, and now I have more stations in the summed output feeding the DVR.


Thanks for the design and thought that went into this!


Larry

SF


----------



## IDRick

Holl_ands,


Did you have a chance to finish your modeling of the RCA751/EZ HD antenna? Perhaps I missed the data when you presented it here...


Thanks,


Rick


----------



## AntAltMike

I just told someone last night that I'd be sending him an e-mail with some links for a "Silver Sensor" style set top antenna. I haven't ever shopped for one. Where can he likely find the best price? eBay is fine, as is Amazon or anywhere else.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/18308236
> 
> 
> I just told someone last night that I'd be sending him an e-mail with some links for a "Silver Sensor" style set top antenna. I haven't ever shopped for one. Where can he likely find the best price? eBay is fine, as is Amazon or anywhere else.



The Philips version is fine if you need UHF only. The Terk HDTVi adds a pair of rabbit ears for VHF.


I've seen the best price for the Philips on Amazon, but that was a while ago.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/18309119
> 
> 
> The Philips version is fine if you need UHF only. The Terk HDTVi adds a pair of rabbit ears for VHF.



He'd probably benefit from the rabbit ears. He is in a 240 unit condo where I set up a headend to remodulate five network broadcasts and one PBS onto analog, but wants to also watch two other, less popular non-profit TV stations, but if he had rabbit ears, he'd also be able to enjoy 7.3 RetroTV




> Quote:
> I've seen the best price for the Philips on Amazon, but that was a while ago.



When I Googled for "Amazon" and "Silver Sensor", the first page that came up said it was discontinued and not available, and I wasn't motivated to look much further than that, but I'd say that if someone makes a non-amplified one with rabbit ears, that would serve him best. I'm afraid he'd overload an amplified antenna where he is.


----------



## hayj

Is this the Silver Sensor you guys are talking about.

http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PHDTV1...8595456&sr=1-8 


I just happened to get an email today about hdtv antennas being on sale at amazon and this came up from the link.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *IDRick* /forum/post/18307606
> 
> 
> Holl_ands,
> 
> 
> Did you have a chance to finish your modeling of the RCA751/EZ HD antenna? Perhaps I missed the data when you presented it here...
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Rick



Given similar SWR modeling difficulties with YA-1713 Log-Yagi, I don't think I'm going

to "publish" 4nec2 results for the RCA ANT-751 (aka EZHD) Log-Yagi.

I probably need NEC4 to model the intricacies in the crossover & flat elements.....


Nonetheless, from Gain & F/B results obtained thus far, it appears consistent with

spec sheet for W-G HD-7000R from which it was obviously derived, after cutting

back the lengths & rearranging VHF elements to eliminate Ch2-6 coverage:
http://www.winegarddirect.com/pdf/HD7000R.pdf


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hayj* /forum/post/18310286
> 
> 
> Is this the Silver Sensor you guys are talking about.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PHDTV1...8595456&sr=1-8
> 
> 
> I just happened to get an email today about hdtv antennas being on sale at amazon and this came up from the link.



PHDTV1 is non-amplified, UHF-only version of Silver Sensor.

Latest Philips SDV2780 is a slightly lower cost Silver Sensor:
http://www.amazon.com/Philips-SDV278...8598373&sr=1-2 
http://www.p4c.philips.com/cgi-bin/d...&slg=en&scy=US 


PHDTV3 is amplified VHF/UHF version with RabbitEars:
http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PHDTV3...8597967&sr=1-1 

Unless you are a few miles away from broadcast towers, PHDTV3 would be a better choice

due to integration of VHF RabbitEars, better SWR matching, amplification

and a plastic case to keep out inquisitive fingers.....


Silver Sensor, originally from Interference, has also appeared under Zenith label.


----------



## weaver6




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/18310136
> 
> 
> He'd probably benefit from the rabbit ears. He is in a 240 unit condo where I set up a headend to remodulate five network broadcasts and one PBS onto analog, but wants to also watch two other, less popular non-profit TV stations, but if he had rabbit ears, he'd also be able to enjoy 7.3 RetroTV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I Googled for "Amazon" and "Silver Sensor", the first page that came up said it was discontinued and not available, and I wasn't motivated to look much further than that, but I'd say that if someone makes a non-amplified one with rabbit ears, that would serve him best. I'm afraid he'd overload an amplified antenna where he is.



This is the unamplified Terk UHF/VHF antenna:

http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Technolog...8601594&sr=1-3


----------



## ancatdubh2

Hello,


My name is Jason and I ramble.


I'm looking to improve my OTA signal reception. I currently use a Terk HDTVa indoors (second floor) and have it wired to both TVs in my house with very good results. I live at in Milford, MA (approx. 20 miles from the towers of Needham which air the Boston stations and 30 miles from the towers of Rehoboth which air the Providence, RI stations. I get the boston stations fine (90-100%). Providence stations are in the 80s and they often cut out during storms. I like getting the Providence stations because they often air different content during off-peak (non-national broadcast) hours. I was thinking of installing a better antenna in the attic so that I could enjoy these stations even during poor weather. I am not opposed to a roof installation, but if I can get away with a good attic installation, I feel the antenna would last longer as it would be protected from severe wind and rain. Can you help me figure out which antenna to buy?


I would prefer something that can pick up high VHF. Although no Boston stations air on VHF, there are 2 providence stations that air on high VHF (digital channels 12 and 13) and one of them carries MyTV as a subchannel (myTV is not available on any of the Boston subchannels). I do not want to deal with a rotor. =(


Also, has anyone had any experience with the EZ-HD antenna from dennysantennaservice.com ?


Also, is there any reason NOT to get the biggest, baddest antenna you can find? In other words, does it "hurt" at all to get an antenna that does more than you need it to do? Or is that a tremendously stupid question?


By the way, I believe the spread between signal directions (Needham vs. Rehoboth) is probably 90 degrees. Will UHF-only antennas pick up high VHF? Does anyone else live in the Boston area? I think the ION station (virtual 68) is weak. =(


Cheers,

Jason.


----------



## holl_ands

*Forward Sweep on 4-Bay Bowties* analyzed using 4nec2 for:
*SuperQuad (9.75x9.5) w Single Angled Grid Reflector* and
*M4 (9.5x9) w Double Angled Grid Reflector*:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/mult...refl/kosmicswp 
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl/m4swp 

As usual, I have included the 4nec2 files....


There is little difference between M4 (9.5x9.0) with DblAnglRefl and

SuperQuad (9.75x9.5) with SnglAnglRefl, except M4 has about 1 dB

more Gain on lowest channels and SuperQuad can provide a significant

Gain increase above Ch51 if Forward Sweep is 2.0-in (or more).

However, best tradeoff between Gain, F/B & F/R is for BowSwp=1.0-in.


SuperQuad's Optimum Forward Sweep is BowSwp=2.0 for Full Band

and BowSep=1.0 below Ch55 for best Gain.

M4's Optimum Forward Sweep is BowSwp=2.0 either way.

For either antenna, best F/B and F/R Ratios are provided when BowSwp is minimized.


I've tried to model these in accordance with provided "standard" dimensions and hence there

are minor differences between the models.

M4 drawings call for 1/8-in O.D. (AWG9) Copper Elements with AWG12 Feedline,

whereas "as-shipped" SuperQuad Elements and Feedline are both AWG9.


EDIT (19Mar2010 at 1830): Revised M4 element size and Reflector Spacing. Reloaded attachments.

EDIT (23Mar2010 at 1100): Revised SuperQuad Feedline & Element size (AWG9 vice AWG8). Very minor change.


----------



## rabbit73

Hi Jason,


Your ramble gave us most of the information needed.


Your tvfool.com report based on Milford looks like this:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...b7c8c7fa71ff18 


For more accurate results you can go to tvfool and enter your exact address; the report will not show your exact address if you want to post the URL for it.


Based on the above report I don't see any reason why you can't use an antenna with a lot of gain if it is needed to bring in VHF. The strongest channel at the top of your report isn't near the overload level. If it were, the dBm figure would be in red.


I suggest a VHF-hi (7-13) antenna in the attic for 12 and 13. The VHF antenna and the UHF antenna for Boston can be combined with a UVSJ and then split for more than one TV.


Sometimes there is a problem with overload on VHF from FM stations, but I don't see any problem like that because WGBH is the strongest FM station on your FMfool report which is shown in the attachment. And, your VHF antenna will not be pointed toward Boston. The amount of signal loss caused by being in the attic depends upon the type of construction.


----------



## ancatdubh2

rabbit, thank you. so, I guess I will be getting 2 antennas then. Do you think I'd be able to use something like this (link below) to pick up UHF channels from both boston AND providence?

http://www.antennasdirect.com/C4-Cle...V-antenna.html 

or
http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB2_Indoor_antenna.html 


I think they're more "multidirectional" rather than uni, so it might work better for picking up signals from both directions? it's more of a question than a statement as I really don't know what I'm talking about.


Also, do you think I need a signal amplifier or can I probably do without one?


----------



## mclapp

Holl_ands,

I think you miss read the diagrams for the M4 the wire diameter of the whiskers is stated to be around 1/8" or .125" not 1/4". Most people make them using #10 gauge which is .100 or #12 which has a diameter of .080. Not sure how much of a difference that makes but I know double the size will skew the frequency quite a bit.


I also see you used a 5 1/2" reflector spacing the diagrams say 4" - 5" although 3 1/2" to 5 1/2" will work the wider spacing has an overall better SWR but less raw gain some and the 3 1/2" has higher raw gain but a higher SWR.


I'm surprised you are able to get a good model using .250 wires against .080 I've understood that NEC2 modeling programs are not able to model conductor size differences like that accurately unless you do some sort of wire tapering near the junction, especially that junction where you have some pretty extreme angles attaching.


It's odd how your models show the gain for the smaller 9 1/2" X 9" antenna having better gain on the lower frequencies and the larger 9 3/4" x 9 1/2" antenna having higher gain on the higher frequencies. Generally smaller antenna elements mean higher frequency gain especially with the same type of antenna.


Maybe the much fatter whisker wires explain some of that difference.


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ancatdubh2* /forum/post/18341836
> 
> 
> rabbit, thank you. so, I guess I will be getting 2 antennas then. Do you think I'd be able to use something like this (link below) to pick up UHF channels from both boston AND providence?
> 
> http://www.antennasdirect.com/C4-Cle...V-antenna.html
> 
> or
> http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB2_Indoor_antenna.html
> 
> 
> I think they're more "multidirectional" rather than uni, so it might work better for picking up signals from both directions? it's more of a question than a statement as I really don't know what I'm talking about.
> 
> 
> Also, do you think I need a signal amplifier or can I probably do without one?



I had the C4 and it picked up UHF poorly and no VHF.

I replaced it with the CM4228HD to get my channels in two directions.
http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master...pr_product_top


----------



## ctdish

Jason,

Based on Rabbit73's TVFool info almost any piece of metal or wire will pick up a strong enough signal if it is outside. The same is true for an attic install assuming you have the common loss of less than 20 db over outside. The problem you will likely face is multipath either with an omni directional antenna or a directional antenna from any direction other than the one it is aimed at. The higher the gain antennas generally have worse performance in other directions than head on than lower gain but unfortunally almost all antennas have a null 90 degrees from the front.

With all that I would try a small UHF antenna aimed at Boston and a small VHF antenna aimed at Providence combined with a U/V coupler. This will work well for every thing except WJAR, WLNE and WSBE. You might get lucky with some of thoswe three as well.

John


----------



## holl_ands

*M4 and SuperQuad 4nec2 Results Correction:*

Per mclapp comments, I revised M4 element sizes (1/8" O.D.) and

Reflector Separation=4.5", then I uploaded revised attachments (post #10983).


There is little difference between M4 (9.5x9.0) with DblAnglRefl and

SuperQuad (9.75x9.5) with SnglAnglRefl, except M4 has about 1 dB

more Gain on lowest channels and SuperQuad can provide a significant

Gain increase above Ch51 if Forward Sweep is 2.0-in (or more).


SuperQuad's Optimum Forward Sweep is BowSwp=3.0 for Full Band

and BowSep=2.0 below Ch55 for best Gain....

M4's Optimum Forward Sweep is BowSwp=2.0 either way.

For either antenna, best F/B and F/R Ratios are provided when BowSwp

is minimized, e.g. BowSwp=1.0. Take your pick....


----------



## mclapp

Holl_ands,

Thanks for revisiting that, I had never tried to model elements that thick on a bowtie so I wasn't sure what kind of difference it would make. Looks like it makes a fair amount, nice graphs on the effects of different forward sweeps.


----------



## jerrytdss

Reception problem with HDHomeRun tuners on ATSC Channel 18


Attic mounted HD8200U non amplified antenna, all other tuners on this antenna are tuning channel 18 perfectly.


In HDHomeRun Config (GUI) channel 18 flashes red, yellow and green.


Amplification or attenuation, does not help.


I tried a flat panel indoor uhf antenna (Artec AN2) and channel 18 (local 2.1, 2.2,

and 2.3) all played. The antenna was very directional and the

signal strength was low, but it worked. Appears to only work when I stand next to this flat panel antenna. Also only works when flat panel is 90 degree to the station.


There is channel transmitting on 19. All the channels are from the same compass heading.


Isolated the antenna coaxial cables from router, cat5 cables, and 120 volt sources. Problem persists


SiliconDust support replied to this issue on December 10, 2009; "We have noted a specific issue with this station and suspect that there might be an issue with the broadcast. Your case is being forwarded to our engineering team for review".


CM4228HD has the same behavior as the flat panel antenna I tested earlier. HDhomerun's tunes with antenna pointed 90 degrees off the station, with me standing next to antenna.


Sadelco Displaymax Jr 3000, Signal level meter is reporting all tunable channels within normal spec's between -15 dBmV and +15dBmV


Positioning the CM4228HD so that it has +10dBmV on channel 18 does not resolve the problem.


My current theory is that the HDHomeRun's are picking up interference from channel 19. I will have to get hold of a tunable notch filter and see if I can trap the channel 19 signals.


Any other suggestions or observations?


----------



## holl_ands

Notch Filter will also kill adjacent channels....


Where's your report from www.tvfool.com ????????????


----------



## jerrytdss




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/18346180
> 
> 
> Notch Filter will also kill adjacent channels....
> 
> 
> Where's your report from www.tvfool.com ????????????


 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...b7c8b944e74197 


Other option is to give up on using the HDHomeRun's


HVR-2250 and Avermedia Duet A188 are both working fine on Channel 18.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jerrytdss* /forum/post/18345696
> 
> 
> Reception problem with HDHomeRun tuners on ATSC Channel 18
> 
> 
> Any other suggestions or observations?



Perhaps the HDHomeRun is prone to image problems. Channel 32, WBFS, is an image of channel 18. That means that the local oscillator is on a frequency that can receiver either channel 18 or channel 32 (& 33). To prove that theory, a channel 32 notch filter would be needed.

http://home.earthlink.net/~wb9nme/articles/atsc-5.html


----------



## ancatdubh2

Another question.


I'm not sure yet if I'll need a pre-amplifier (I'll be setting up the antenna in the attic to connect to 2 TVs). But if I do, I'm wondering if placement of the amplifier is important. In other words, I could split the signal in the attic and run down to the two TVs, putting the amp right up there at the splitter in the attic. OR, I could run a single signal down to the basement (where I currently have my old cable line coming into a splitter) and use THAT splitter to go back up to the two TVs. The advantage of this second option is that if I decide to put a TV in the basement in the future, I wouldn't have to run any new coaxial, I would just tap right into that splitter. So the second option, I would put the amp at that splitter since I've got a GFCI outlet right there. For the first option, I would need to install a new electrical outlet in the attic (which is not a problem as I am electrically capable).


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jerrytdss* /forum/post/18346683
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...b7c8b944e74197
> 
> 
> Other option is to give up on using the HDHomeRun's
> 
> 
> HVR-2250 and Avermedia Duet A188 are both working fine on Channel 18.



Since Ch18 and Ch19 are about same signal strength, adjacent channel interference

is NOT a problem (unless Ch19 transmitter is out-of-spec.....)


Likewise Ch32 "Image" or "Taboo" channel is also about same signal strength and

hence "should" NOT be a problem....


Adjacent & "Taboo" channel interference are only a problem when they are MUCH stronger....


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ancatdubh2* /forum/post/18349946
> 
> 
> Another question.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure yet if I'll need a pre-amplifier (I'll be setting up the antenna in the attic to connect to 2 TVs). But if I do, I'm wondering if placement of the amplifier is important. In other words, I could split the signal in the attic and run down to the two TVs, putting the amp right up there at the splitter in ).



It is usually best to put the preamp where the incoming signal is the strongest. Otherwise, you are also amplifying any possible interference, etc. on the down lead.


The amplifiers are powered through the coax downlead.


----------



## jerrytdss




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/18349774
> 
> 
> Perhaps the HDHomeRun is prone to image problems. Channel 32, WBFS, is an image of channel 18. That means that the local oscillator is on a frequency that can receiver either channel 18 or channel 32 (& 33). To prove that theory, a channel 32 notch filter would be needed.
> 
> http://home.earthlink.net/~wb9nme/articles/atsc-5.html



I don't understand? How is Channel 32, WBFS, an image of channel 18?


32 is locking fine.


The fact that I can get 18 to lock when the antenna is 90 degrees to station would seem to be a big clue to this problem. Is it possible there is local interference on 497mhz, that only the HDhomerun's pick up?


----------



## jerrytdss

Tsreader list of PIDs while this HDhomeRun tuner is locked and unlocked on channel 18.


I am not sure if there is any useful information in this text file, but hopefully it has a clue to the problem.

 

Tsreader PID List Locked and Unlocked Ch18.txt 177.00390625k . file


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/18350100
> 
> 
> Since Ch18 and Ch19 are about same signal strength, adjacent channel interference is NOT a problem (unless Ch19 transmitter is out-of-spec.....)
> 
> 
> Likewise Ch32 "Image" or "Taboo" channel is also about same signal strength and hence "should" NOT be a problem....
> 
> 
> Adjacent & "Taboo" channel interference are only a problem when they are MUCH stronger....



I agree that adjacent channel interference is unlikely to be the problem.


Also, image taboo interference shouldn't be a problem for a properly designed receiver. The HomeRun can't be designed properly or it would be working fine.


Without any pre-filtering, the image of a receiver is the same strength as the desired signal. The assumption that an image must be stronger to interfere assumes that there is sufficient front end selectivity to attenuate channel 32. With filter attenuation less than 15 db, the signal from 32 at the same strength as 18 and will interfere with channel 18.


Also consider that TV fool assumes that an omnidirectional transmit antenna is actually omnidirectional. If 18 is weaker than that assumption and another channel is stronger, the interference would be worse than calculated.


----------



## mooseboots

I would like some quick advice on a "moon shot" project I'm considering, as to whether it's even feasible.


I live in Cincinnati, and would love to pick up WISH-TV in Indianapolis. I went to Purdue University in Indiana, and Indianapolis news and CBS sports gives them more coverage than Cincinnati stations.


Here's the report from tvfool.com

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...b7c8e1865666a4 


WISH-TV is approximately 107 miles away, and the ray path from my antenna to the tower would be via the troposphere. The azimuth angle to Indy is 348 degrees, and there's strong adjacent channel emitters less than 3 miles from my home at 301 degrees. (e.g. WCPO on Channel 10, with the desired signal being WISH on Channel 9)


Of course, I can roof-mount a directional antenna (or I wouldn't even be toying with the idea of this) on a 2nd story roof. I'd plan on hooking up one of the channels on my HD-HomeRun to a dedicated directional antenna aimed at Indianapolis. I could minimize cable run between the antenna and the HD-HomeRun to just a few feet.


Any specialty highly directional, narrow bandwidth antenna designs I could even consider for such a ridiculous project?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jerrytdss* /forum/post/18350212
> 
> 
> I don't understand? How is Channel 32, WBFS, an image of channel 18?



Image Frequency (fimage)


One major disadvantage to the superheterodyne receiver is the problem of image frequency. In heterodyne receivers, an image frequency is an undesired input frequency equal to the station frequency plus twice the intermediate frequency. The image frequency results in two stations being received at the same time, thus producing interference. Image frequencies can be eliminated by sufficient attenuation on the incoming signal by the RF amplifier filter of the superheterodyne receiver.


As a consequence, most Autodyne receivers needed quite elaborate antenna tuning networks, often involving double-tuned coils, to avoid image interference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superheterodyne_receiver


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mooseboots* /forum/post/18352439
> 
> 
> Any specialty highly directional, narrow bandwidth antenna designs I could even consider for such a ridiculous project?



Try a Slingbox antenna.


----------



## jerrytdss




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/18349774
> 
> 
> Perhaps the HDHomeRun is prone to image problems. Channel 32, WBFS, is an image of channel 18. That means that the local oscillator is on a frequency that can receiver either channel 18 or channel 32 (& 33). To prove that theory, a channel 32 notch filter would be needed.
> 
> http://home.earthlink.net/~wb9nme/articles/atsc-5.html



I will try a notch filter on channel 32.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I live in Cincinnati, and would love to pick up WISH-TV in Indianapolis. I went to Purdue University in Indiana, and Indianapolis news and CBS sports gives them more coverage than Cincinnati stations.



At 107 miles and -25 NM, the signal just isnt there except during tropo events.


They have a website with recaps of the news and videos, so IMO thats your best option.


----------



## holl_ands

Psssst: A new Tuner is less expensive than a Ch32 Notch Filter.....


FCC OET conducted Adjacent and "Taboo" Channel interference tests on STB/DTVs available in 2005/6:
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/document...s-03-30-07.pdf 


CRC, Canada tested five DTVs from 2001-2006, reported in Mar 2010 IEEE Trans on Broadcasting:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/sr...d%3DSearch+All 


For moderate signal strengths, interference from Ch14/15 (Image is 2 channels wide) could be

tolerated when it was stronger by 27-32 dB (worst cases) to more typically 45-60 dB.


Either the Silicon Dust tuner has a defective design.....or Ch18 is putting out garbage PSIP,

as seen in the explosion of "unknown" PIDs in the above TSReader report....

Unfortunately, the report did not include all of the detailed info within each primary PID entry....


BTW: In L.A., KBEH is outputting garbage PSIP, resulting in few DTVs "seeing" their program:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...91672&page=236


----------



## ThoraX695




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mooseboots* /forum/post/18352439
> 
> 
> WISH-TV is approximately 107 miles away, and the ray path from my antenna to the tower would be via the troposphere. The azimuth angle to Indy is 348 degrees, and there's strong adjacent channel emitters less than 3 miles from my home at 301 degrees. (e.g. WCPO on Channel 10, with the desired signal being WISH on Channel 9)



I'm from Cincinnati and can help with some input.


There's no way you're going to get WISH outside of tropospheric ducting. WCPO is moving from RF 10 to RF 22 in the fall, but you're still too close to the transmitters in downtown Cincinnati to use a pre-amp and too far away from Indianapolis.


I'd focus on trying to get the stations in Dayton. That looks like a better and more achievable challenge. Good luck!


----------



## jerrytdss




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/18349774
> 
> 
> Perhaps the HDHomeRun is prone to image problems. Channel 32, WBFS, is an image of channel 18. That means that the local oscillator is on a frequency that can receiver either channel 18 or channel 32 (& 33). To prove that theory, a channel 32 notch filter would be needed.
> 
> http://home.earthlink.net/~wb9nme/articles/atsc-5.html



Positioned the flat panel antenna so that the HDHomeRun tuner would lock channel 18, (90 degrees to station, handheld?) at the same time I scanned the signal level on each channel with a Sadelco DisplayMax Jr 3000. Guess which channel is missing any signal.... 32


As soon as I reposition the antenna and channel 32 regains signal, channel 18 unlocks


----------



## jerrytdss




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/18357502
> 
> 
> Psssst: A new Tuner is less expensive than a Ch32 Notch Filter.....
> 
> 
> FCC OET conducted Adjacent and "Taboo" Channel interference tests on STB/DTVs available in 2005/6:
> http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/document...s-03-30-07.pdf
> 
> 
> CRC, Canada tested five DTVs from 2001-2006, reported in Mar 2010 IEEE Trans on Broadcasting:
> http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/sr...d%3DSearch+All
> 
> 
> For moderate signal strengths, interference from Ch14/15 (Image is 2 channels wide) could be
> 
> tolerated when it was stronger by 27-32 dB (worst cases) to more typically 45-60 dB.
> 
> 
> Either the Silicon Dust tuner has a defective design.....or Ch18 is putting out garbage PSIP,
> 
> as seen in the explosion of "unknown" PIDs in the above TSReader report....
> 
> Unfortunately, the report did not include all of the detailed info within each primary PID entry....
> 
> 
> BTW: In L.A., KBEH is outputting garbage PSIP, resulting in few DTVs "seeing" their program:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...91672&page=236



So if the problem these HDHomeRun tuners are having are with the Taboo channel 32. What was done wrong in the design of the tuners?


----------



## jerrytdss




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/18349774
> 
> 
> Perhaps the HDHomeRun is prone to image problems. Channel 32, WBFS, is an image of channel 18. That means that the local oscillator is on a frequency that can receiver either channel 18 or channel 32 (& 33). To prove that theory, a channel 32 notch filter would be needed.
> 
> http://home.earthlink.net/~wb9nme/articles/atsc-5.html



How would someone with HDHomeRun tuners in a different location be able to check TVfool and determine which channels in their location are "Image Frequencies"? Is there a math formula?


Is this the formula?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jerrytdss* /forum/post/18361550
> 
> 
> How would someone with HDHomeRun tuners in a different location be able to check TVfool and determine which channels in their location are "Image Frequencies"? Is there a math formula?



As I said above, Image Freq will be 14 and 15 channels ABOVE desired UHF channel number.


Math formulas were in the wiki article....


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/18362942
> 
> 
> As I said above, Image Freq is two channels wide (cuz involves mixing w 2nd harmonic)
> 
> and will be 14 and 15 channels ABOVE desired UHF channel number.
> 
> 
> Math formulas were in the wiki article....



No, it has nothing to do with the 2nd harmonic. It's just that the IF frequency for the _center_ of the channel is 43.5 MHz. 43.5 * 2 = 87 MHz, but 87 / 6 = 14.5. The image is only one channel wide, but it's halfway between two channels. So both the 14th and 15th channel above the desired channel can cause image interference.


Ron


----------



## holl_ands

That formula is correct....for an AM Tuner using an IF frequency of 455 kHz.

And 10.7 MHz IF frequency is commonly used in FM Tuners....


"Most" DTV Tuners have used an IF frequency of about 44 MHz, so twice

that is 88 MHz, or a UHF channel number difference of 14.67 (e.g. 14-15 channels UP).


F(image) = F(desired) +/- 88 MHz.


Here are some Single Conversion Tuners with IF=44 MHz. The varactor tunable filter on the

RF input is the primary means to attenuate the image frequency:
http://www.infineon.com/dgdl/AppNote...12b41fb7563770 ["Typical" Schematic.]
https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/...EJ9QKE00710%27 [Used in early Zenith/Insignia CECBs.]
http://www.compendiumarcana.com/foru...x%20STB-T9.pdf [Analog Pass-Thru CECB.]
http://www.haluyatech.com/down/lgtunner/TDVS-H066F.pdf [See example on pg9.]


However, some newer tuners have used either a much lower IF, making it possible to use a

much lower sampling frequency to get the signal into the ATSC Decoder chip (a high speed

signal processor) to implement the IF Filter job, rather than an external SAW filter.....or both:
http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/c...eaturing56.pdf 
http://www.rfdesignline.com/howto/20...MY32JVN?pgno=2 

When a low IF freqs (or zero IF, Direct Conversion tuner) is used, excellent I/Q matching

in the signal processor chip's A/D Converter is essential for image rejection performance.


Microtune, some Samsung and a few others have gone the Double Conversion route:
http://www.odyseus.nildram.co.uk/Sys...s/SuperHet.pdf 
http://rfdesign.com/images/archive/0601Norsworthy67.pdf 

Found in some USB Sticks and various other STBs & DTVs, I have yet

to see any test of how well they perform with very strong signals on

the input....and NO RF input filter to attenuate them prior to the mixer.


----------



## jerrytdss




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/18364200
> 
> 
> That formula is correct



This is the tuner which my HDHomeRuns should have by ID number;


Tuner

JINXIN

UVS1805BDMW1

0803-2527


demodulator chip

Micronas DRX 393yJ


whereas the earlier ID HDHomeRuns (Before 1013xxxx) had;


Tuner

Thomson DTF8640B


demodulator chip

Oren CAS220


I am wondering if the earlier tuners were able to reject this "Image Frequency".


Calling all HDHomeRun owners. Can you tune with Image channels?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post18365396


----------



## holl_ands

*JINX UVS1805 series NIM* "specs" (such as they are):
http://www.jx-e.com/en/Productsviwe.asp?id=39 

Noise Figure 
UVS2605 Series has slightly better Noise Figure 
[VSWR of SEVEN!!!!! That's the worst I've ever seen in ANYTHING!!!!!]

www.micronas.com no longer posts information re their ATSC Decoder chips

and Google came up empty wrt DRX393....or DRX394.

A long time ago I snagged a spec sheet for DRX394 ATSC Decoder....but it's from 2005.

So the DRX393 is somewhat of a mystery.....

BTW, DRX390 and DRX396 are RF Tuner chips, so third digit is part TYPE.


===================================
www.thomson.net website had been taken over (hostile???) by the Technicolor coalition.

However my copy of the earlier DTF8640A spec sheet claims conformance to ATSC A/74 "Guidelines"

and an Image Rejection of 60 dB (minimum on UHF, more on VHF).


Oren was taken over by Zoran in 2005. Here's the CAS220 (Cascade 2) spec sheet:
http://www.zoran.com/IMG/pdf/Cascade2.pdf 


FWIW: CAS220 and an unidentified Thomson tuner were used in the original RCA DTA800A CECB.

Hmmmm....a similar design might have been used in the HomeRun.....


----------



## holl_ands

*"DTV Converter Box Test Program--Results and Lessons Learned"*, 9 Oct 2009

is now available on FCC OET Documents webpage. This is a statistical analysis

(no manufacturer names) summarizing how well the (100+) CECB's performed against

NTIA specs, including sensitivity, adjacent/taboo channel interference susceptibility, etc:
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/document...TestReport.pdf 


This is the *FIRST test to compare Single Conversion to Double Conversion Tuners*.


For comparison purposes, they have also included charts from 2005/2006 test of STB/DTVs:
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/documents [See FCC/OET 07-TR-1003.]


CRC, Canada also released results of their adjacent/taboo channel test in this month's

IEEE Transactions on Broadcasting, Mar 2010 [Subscription required...or a good Library]:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/fr...d%3DSearch+All


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/18364161
> 
> 
> No, it has nothing to do with the 2nd harmonic. It's just that the IF frequency for the _center_ of the channel is 43.5 MHz. 43.5 * 2 = 87 MHz, but 87 / 6 = 14.5. The image is only one channel wide, but it's halfway between two channels. So both the 14th and 15th channel above the desired channel can cause image interference.
> 
> 
> Ron



Sorry, you're right....it isn't a second harmonic problem.....


Since "most" ATSC tuners I've seen use 44 MHz (center freq), Ch18 (494 MHz)

would use 494 + 44 = 538 MHz oscillator freq with image at 538 + 44 = 582 MHz,

which is (582 - 494)/6 = 14.67 channel positions away.....with 6 MHz bandwidth.


----------



## jerrytdss

Tower Guy and Holl_ands, Thanks for all your help.


I appreciate your time and efforts.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> "DTV Converter Box Test Program--Results and Lessons Learned", 9 Oct 2009



Lesson learned : Digital TVs before 2007 had really crappy tuners, heh.


----------



## ngarrang




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/18375122
> 
> 
> Lesson learned : Digital TVs before 2007 had really crappy tuners, heh.



+1.


Life is so much better in my house now with a good quality ATSC tuner.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jerrytdss* /forum/post/18370903
> 
> 
> Tower Guy and Holl_ands, Thanks for all your help.
> 
> 
> I appreciate your time and efforts.



You're welcome. You had a very interesting problem. I'm glad that my wild guess was right!


----------



## Avder

Hi everyone


Sorry if a question like this has been posted before, but I have a question about how jointennas work in certain configurations.


I'm in the process of designing an antenna setup for the duplex I live in. Since there is more than one tenant here, a rotor system is unworkable, and since the twoers are in two directions here (one tower is about 180 degrees from the others), I am more than likely going to go with a two-antenna system, with a join-tenna injecting the channel off the single-channel antenna.


I asked on another forum for advice on which antennas I should use and how they should be configured. The resident expert there suggested that I hook the two antennas up with a jointenna, but backwards. That is, the broadband antenna hooked up to the single channel input and the single channel antenna hooked to the broadband input. He suggested this because the channel that the single channel antenna is to pick up, channel 19, is very near a channel that the braodband antenna is supposed to get: channel 21.


My question is first off, if this will work as he described, and also how it works. I consider myself technical minded and curisoty is starting to eat me up on this.


Thanks for any advice you guys can give!


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Avder* /forum/post/18380764
> 
> 
> He suggested this because the channel that the single channel antenna is to pick up, channel 19, is very near a channel that the braodband antenna is supposed to get: channel 21.
> 
> 
> My question is first off, if this will work as he described, and also how it works. I consider myself technical minded and curisoty is starting to eat me up on this.



A Jointenna is not sufficiently selective to allow channels 19 and 21 through either port simultaneously, but it may work anyway if the signals are strong enough. I'd try it first installed as intended.


Tinlee can design a perfect filter for you.
http://www.tinlee.com/Matv_filters.php?active=3 

It will be more effective than a Jointenna, but also more money.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> and since the twoers are in two directions here (one tower is about 180 degrees from the others), I am more than likely going to go with a two-antenna system



Post your TVFool image.


Maybe youre close enough to go with a reflector-less antenna ?


If not, another option may be two preamped antennas into two separate coax downleads, which are each then split, then two coax leads into each house (one from each antenna), which then go into A-B switches at each of the TVs.


----------



## Avder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/18381586
> 
> 
> Post your TVFool image.
> 
> 
> Maybe youre close enough to go with a reflector-less antenna ?
> 
> 
> If not, another option may be two preamped antennas into two separate coax downleads, which are each then split, then two coax leads into each house (one from each antenna), which then go into A-B switches at each of the TVs.



TV Fool Image here: http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n.../Radar-All.png 


The channels I care about are channels 2, 21, 19, 13, 38, and 44. The analog channel listed on channel 2 is in that direction, but it actually operates on channel 33, so I dont need low-VHF at all, just high-vhf for channel 13. Channel 35 in the same direction as 19 is completely discardable as its just a low power religious station leaving just channel 19 in that direction and the rest except for 33 about 180 degrees the other way.


----------



## holl_ands

Stampeder updated his chart of antenna recommendations:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=97121 

Although some others could be added, I don't disagree with what's in the list....

These are "the best" choices...note addition of RCA ANT751 in new "small" category.


PS: Although he indicates Hi-VHF antennas have "No FM Radio"

since the FM band is well below Ch7, any ol' piece of metal is going

to receive the stronger FM stations.....although SWR will be very high.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The channels I care about are channels 2, 21, 19, 13, 38, and 44. The analog channel listed on channel 2 is in that direction, but it actually operates on channel 33, so I dont need low-VHF at all, just high-vhf for channel 13. Channel 35 in the same direction as 19 is completely discardable as its just a low power religious station leaving just channel 19 in that direction and the rest except for 33 about 180 degrees the other way.



Heh, that makes it easy. Build yourself just (1) reflector-less Single Bay GH with 28 inch NARODs (for channel 13). Should set you back about $10. Then use the savings to get a QUALITY low noise preamp to over come cable and splitter losses between the two houses.


Basically build the SBGH as per here : http://mysite.verizon.net/res11d41p/index.html 


except,


you dont need the reflector and you dont have to use the Top Hat NAROD, straight 28" ones will be fine in your situation.


If you dont want to build, you could get an AntennaCraft G1483 and rip off the reflectors and put NARODs on it. But that will cost more, and the time savings wont be much. At 56.2 NM, theres a good chance youll get channel 13 even without NARODs. The NARODs will insure that you do.


----------



## elguapo27




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Avder* /forum/post/18380764
> 
> 
> Hi everyone
> 
> 
> My question is first off, if this will work as he described, and also how it works. I consider myself technical minded and curisoty is starting to eat me up on this.
> 
> 
> Thanks for any advice you guys can give!



To answer how the Jointenna works. The Jointenna is tuned by hooking it up to a network analyzer. There are three reference markes set at 500MHz, 503MHz and 506MHz. The Jointenna is then plugged in to the selected channel input and the signal is peaked as much as possible. This will still have a slope effect, and the adjacent channels can be affected. Then the analyser is hooked to the all channels input. The Jointenna is then tuned to trap out the selected channel. Usually the middle frequency for channel 19 would be 503MHz would be ttuned for a loss of at least an atenuation of 20dB. That is a basic overview of how the Jointenna is tuned and what it does.


----------



## Avder




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/18383654
> 
> 
> Heh, that makes it easy. Build yourself just (1) reflector-less Single Bay GH with 28 inch NARODs (for channel 13). Should set you back about $10. Then use the savings to get a QUALITY low noise preamp to over come cable and splitter losses between the two houses.
> 
> 
> Basically build the SBGH as per here : http://mysite.verizon.net/res11d41p/index.html
> 
> 
> except,
> 
> 
> you dont need the reflector and you dont have to use the Top Hat NAROD, straight 28" ones will be fine in your situation.
> 
> 
> If you dont want to build, you could get an AntennaCraft G1483 and rip off the reflectors and put NARODs on it. But that will cost more, and the time savings wont be much. At 56.2 NM, theres a good chance youll get channel 13 even without NARODs. The NARODs will insure that you do.



I've actually been pondering throwing together a multi-bay bowtie antenna that Ive found directions for all over the internet just to see what that could do, and then using a VHF/UHF diplexer to connect a cheap set of rabbit ears to it for channel 13.


Is there a cheap design for this that would actually stand up to the elements in an outdoor situation? Keep in mind that I live in the Fargo, ND-Moorhead, MN area, and the winters here are brutally cold, snow filled, and the whole year round is very windy, so the materials used would have to be somewhat durable.


And if it is possible to build one of those on the cheap for outdoors, what would you recommend as far as a preamp goes? Would any further distribution amplifier be needed after the preamp? Also, another factor to consider is that, to save time and effort from cabling, I would like to diplex this into the cabling that was recently installed when we got satellite service. I've already done my homework on that as far as researching if OTA and Satellite would be compatible in my situation, and they are if I install the right equipment, which I plan to.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *elguapo27* /forum/post/18384237
> 
> 
> To answer how the Jointenna works. The Jointenna is tuned by hooking it up to a network analyzer. There are three reference markes set at 500MHz, 503MHz and 506MHz. The Jointenna is then plugged in to the selected channel input and the signal is peaked as much as possible. This will still have a slope effect, and the adjacent channels can be affected. Then the analyser is hooked to the all channels input. The Jointenna is then tuned to trap out the selected channel. Usually the middle frequency for channel 19 would be 503MHz would be ttuned for a loss of at least an atenuation of 20dB. That is a basic overview of how the Jointenna is tuned and what it does.



Right, I know the basics of how it works, but I was wondering about the logic of his suggesting I hook it up backwards and his assertion that it would work as intended: allowing both channel 19 and channel 21 through.


----------



## holl_ands

Antenna construction threads are found here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798265 
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=186 
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=81 

Note that the latter two include ample participation from our Northern Neighbors....


A Preamp should be adequate unless you're feeding more than 4 or 8 drops.

Cascading a Distribution Amp after a Preamp could cause overload problems.

I have an app for that: http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota 


Careful research is needed if you want to Diplex OTA and SAT.

Dishnet uses a "Super Home Node", incl. Multi-Room signal distribution:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=18147063 


Dishnet freqs do NOT overlap OTA freqs....but many HD DirecTV systems DO....be very careful....


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I've actually been pondering throwing together a multi-bay bowtie antenna that Ive found directions for all over the internet just to see what that could do



I wouldnt waste your time, its a poor performer. Holl_ands analysis here : http://imageevent.com/holl_ands 

A SBGH is also quicker to construct, its just 2 pieces of wire (4 counting the NARODs).


> Quote:
> Is there a cheap design for this that would actually stand up to the elements in an outdoor situation? Keep in mind that I live in the Fargo, ND-Moorhead, MN area, and the winters here are brutally cold, snow filled, and the whole year round is very windy, so the materials used would have to be somewhat durable.



People much further north than you have been using reflector GH's just fine. A reflector-less SBGH, with its less wind and snow load, built using 6 gauge copper or 1/4" aluminum rod, and the cheap electrical grey pvc EMT should be fine even for Antarctica, heh. (although I cant find specs for the minimum temp for the grey pvc EMT. Max temp is 90 C)


----------



## holl_ands

There are designs for excellent 4-Bay Bowties on the Internet....but the overly small designs in

babblin5's UTube video, as well as others (e.g. MakeTV) are extremely poor (see analysis cited below).


References to the GOOD 4-Bays, such as mclapp's M4 (9.5x9.0) and EV's SuperQuad (9.75x9.5)

can be found in the individual simulation reports....& compares favorably to SBGH:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay 


Which will hold up to wind and ice loading better??? A professional broadcast antenna....


I would bet on a well-built SBGH, since it is difficult to support the ends

of the 4-Bay whiskers....unless you attached each to yet another pair of PVCs,

which may or may not affect the antenna....or use 1/2-in Copper tubing for strength....


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Which will hold up to wind and ice loading better??? A professional broadcast antenna....
> 
> 
> I would bet on a well-built SBGH,



Yeah, and with the NARODs to interlock the whole thing together, its a very sturdy structure.


----------



## holl_ands

*RF Splitter Mod for the original CM4228*, 4nec2 analysis using Ken Nist's model:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/mult...refl/cm4228mod 

Including AT LEAST another 0.5 dB loss in a typical RF Splitter (when signals are perfectly matched

in both amplitude and phase), I didn't see very much of a difference in Net Gain up thru Ch51,

although the RF Splitter Mod has 1 to 3 dB higher Raw Gain on the lowest channels and

1-3 dB more gain on the highest channels.


Hi-VHF Raw Gain on Ch7-13 was 8.5 to 9.2 dBi, except for a dip to 3.5 dBi on Ch11.

However SWR was very excessive below Ch12 & 13.


Note: A *DUAL BEAM* pattern results, with a null in between, if one of the Baluns is reversed.

The Gain in each beam is about 2.4-2.9 dBi lower than the usual Single Beam pattern. Perhaps

there is a situation where the tower groups are separated by about 50-degrees.....


The RF Splitter Mod would work even better with Super-Sized 8-Bay Bowties, as the

max Gain remains about the same, but moves down in frequency by about 100 MHz.....


----------



## Avder

So what I did today as a crafts project was build one of the 4-bay bowtie designs holl_ands linked to, the 8.5in whisker design because thats all my sacrificed clothes hangers would allow, and those were the only hangars I could spare or I would have built a 9.75in one. I'm quite pleased with the results so far over my old rabbit-ears/loop combo. 4.1 went from 2-3 bars (my TV does zero to 4 bars for signal strength) to 3-4 bars, 6.1 stayed at 4 bars, 11.1 went from one bar to 2-3 bars, 13.1 remained where it was with rabbit ears at 3 bars, and 15.1 is at 3 bars. Analog low power channels 35 and 33 both showed improvement, with 35's picture and audio getting close to clear, and 33's picture is visible, but its audio is still all static.


This antenna is a purely indoor build of course, just coat hangers on a piece of ply-wood I found downstairs. I plan on doing a very precision build with one of the Reflectorless SBGH+Narod designs and then seeing if I can find a good way to mount and ground it outdoors near my satellite dish and seeing what that gets me on one TV. If the results are satisfactory I'll add a preamp and do all 6 drops.


----------



## jerrytdss




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/18349774
> 
> 
> Perhaps the HDHomeRun is prone to image problems. Channel 32, WBFS, is an image of channel 18. That means that the local oscillator is on a frequency that can receiver either channel 18 or channel 32 (& 33). To prove that theory, a channel 32 notch filter would be needed.
> 
> http://home.earthlink.net/~wb9nme/articles/atsc-5.html



Got a Winegard UT-2700 adjustable notch filter, set it up to block channel 32 and channel 18 tunes fine now.


Pretty solid evidence that these (HDHomeRun) tuners are susceptible to the "Image Frequency" problem.


EDIT - channel 18 is working today with out blocking channel 32. First time channel 18 has worked since I bought these HDHomeRun units in December 2009. Something changed in the source??


----------



## Wendell R. Breland

Attached below is a PDF file for three different TV antennas, Antennas Direct 91XG, Winegard HD-9032 and YA-1713. Ive taken data from the sites of the manufactures, redrawn their polar charts and some of the artwork. Antennas Direct did not have a polar graph that I could find. The graphics shown below represents what the PDF looks like.


DISCLAIMER: I am not a graphic artist so no snide remarks please



































 

Antennas Direct-91XG.pdf 141.3583984375k . file

 

Winegard HD-9032.pdf 102.9873046875k . file

 

Winegard YA-1713.pdf 81.123046875k . file


----------



## aerial1

We had one installed in 1968. Sears sold it and it was mounted 42 feet high. We lived in Downers Grove, Il. And watched the Bear football games that were blacked out from Wbbm analog 2. from Rockford ,ILL.. And sometimes South Bend. Did some DX tests and did have some thrilling fun. I was wondering if anyone had a Sears catalog from that year with the JFD antenna listed? Oh we used a Blonder-Tongue Uhf pre-amp 10 or 13 db gain cant recall which figure.Thanks again for the heart warming posts from the era when things worked well and lasted. I would love to have one again.


----------



## holl_ands

*JFD's Zig-A-Log UHF Antenna* can be found in fol. catalog excerpts:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show....php?p=1009255 
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show....php?p=1074407 

It's an array of four Zig-Zag LPAs (Log Periodic Antennas) in a

trapezoidal configuration.....all with Horizontal Polarization....


And here are some photos of a Zig-A-Log submitted by Systems2000:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=16702814 

In post#9671 I provided some explanation....


----------



## holl_ands

*Hi-VHF 2-Bay and 4-Bay Bowties (NO Reflectors)* were analyzed to find quasi-optimum (33"x32")

dimensions (overall 49" H x 33" W and HUGE 113" H x 33" W respectively):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay 

I also analyzed response in the UHF Band...yes there is good Gain...but it's all over the place...


These NO Reflector versions would be suitable for hanging on the wall behind a picture or curtain....


Hi-VHF 2-Bay NO Refl: 7.5-10.0 dBi Raw Gain, SWR 2.2-3.5 with AWG10 (Fatter would be better).

Hi-VHF 4-Bay NO Refl: 10.8-12.3 dBi Raw Gain, SWR 1.1-2.8 with AWG10.


Compare to:

Hi-VHF Folded Dipole: 2.1-2.2 dBi Raw Gain, SWR 1.1-2.5 with AWG12.

Hi-VHF Circular Loop: 3.5-4.5 dBi Raw Gain, SWR 1.7-2.6 with AWG12.


----------



## Vipfreak

I got an RCA Ant1650 and it's worse than my free rabbit ear unpowered antenna...


----------



## aerial1

Up in Angola,Indiana. 40 miles north, A few 12 bow reflector antennas are still up on homes. I must investigate. Thank you for the links on the zig a log JFD.


----------



## railcon56

I Really want only WTTG real Channel 36 vitual 5.1 and WUSA real 35 20.1 vitual Both 94 miles away... I am considering Winegard HD 7084P,Winegard Model:HD 8200U,Advantage CM-3020,Ultra-Hi Crossfire CM-3671 and CM-7777...Any suggestions do you think this is possible?

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9c6bd16aa3c7c2


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *railcon56* /forum/post/18450181
> 
> 
> I Really want only WTTG real Channel 36 vitual 5.1 and WUSA real 35 20.1 vitual . . . . . do you think this is possible?
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9c6bd16aa3c7c2



Unfortunately, these channels would be impossible to receive at your location.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *railcon56* /forum/post/18450181
> 
> 
> I Really want only WTTG real Channel 36 vitual 5.1 and WUSA real 35 20.1 vitual Both 94 miles away... Any suggestions do you think this is possible?



WITF on channel 36 located near you makes reception of another channel 36 impossible.


WUSA is actually on channel 9, not 35 (they were on 34 until 6/12/2009). The adjacent channel interference from WGAL on channel 8 precludes reception of WUSA on channel 9.


The reference to channel 20.1 doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/18453068
> 
> 
> The reference to channel 20.1 doesn't make sense to me.



I assumed the OP was referring to WDCA 20.1 (RF35)


----------



## drewwho




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/18368998
> 
> *JINX UVS1805 series NIM* "specs" (such as they are):
> http://www.jx-e.com/en/Productsviwe.asp?id=39
> 
> Noise Figure
> UVS2605 Series has slightly better Noise Figure
> [VSWR of SEVEN!!!!! That's the worst I've ever seen in ANYTHING!!!!!]



I have one of these newer HDHRs, and it is the worst tuner I've used in years. I have a bunch of LGDT3303 based PC tuners, some as old as 5 years, and they all outperform the HDHR by a wide margin. But I really, really like the concept of an HDHR and I want to make it work. Is there anything I can do to compensate for its bad specs?


In my setup, I have an attic mounted CM4228, 25' of RG6, and a 4-way amplified splitter. I live about 17 miles from the transmitters that I'm interested in, and the CM4228 is aimed at the transmitters. I live about 5 miles from a commercial aviation airport (RDU), and depending on weather, the flight path is sometimes between me and the transmitter.


After re-locating the antenna several times (first time I've had to touch it since I got my LG tuners in 2005), I've got a decent signal on the HDHR across most of my stations. Oddly, my best stations are physically on VHF 11 and UHF 17, and my worst are on UHF 48 and UHF 49. These problem stations show lower signal strength in the HDHR stats, and are more prone to breakups. But even the "better" stations have occasional glitches.


The way things are now, I see a few glitches per hour. I'd like things to be perfect, the way they are with my LG based tuners. After about 12 hours of being tuned, I see the following stats:


Fri Apr 9 09:55:26 EDT 2010

tun: ch=8vsb:17 lock=8vsb ss=88 snq=99 seq=100 dbg=2048-11677-1429

dev: resync=9115 overflow=0

ts: bps=19395584 ut=97 te=7403 miss=41 crc=1

flt: bps=2433472

net: pps=234 err=0 stop=0


tun: ch=8vsb:49 lock=8vsb ss=84 snq=100 seq=100 dbg=2048-11572-1312

dev: resync=40659 overflow=0

ts: bps=19394080 ut=89 te=29234 miss=109 crc=0

flt: bps=3581024

net: pps=349 err=0 stop=0


What should I look at to improve my setup? I really don't want to move the antenna out of the attic. Aside from that, I'm all ears.


Thanks,

Drew


----------



## dasher123

Has anyone tried this indoor/outdoor antenna from Monoprice? any impressions? I think I am going to try it - the rabbit ears that I have right now are not consistant...seems a lot of people get good results with this even being used indoors...

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2


----------



## holl_ands

*drewwho:* You might be interested in the Ceton InfiniTV 4, a Quad ATSC/QAM Tuner PCI card:
http://www.cetoncorp.com/products.php 

Website is accepting pre-orders now for shipments beginning 31May2010.

It also supports a CableCARD for decrypting digital cable channels.....


----------



## Impalpable

Hello AVS World,

So my wife and I have finally had enough of Time Warner's crap. We are switching to netflix + antenna. I would appreciate a recommendation from the experts on which antenna to get. Here are the details of our situation.


2 TV's: One Samsung LN46A650 (using it's built in tuner)

One old SD RCA TV (using a TIVAX STB-S8 tuner)


On the second floor of an apartment building with the balcony facing North.


h++p:// www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9c6ba53d862144 


Ideally we would like to pick up at least ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX. Anything above that would be a plus.


Thanks in advance for your recommendations.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Impalpable* /forum/post/18468641
> 
> 
> Hello AVS World,
> 
> So my wife and I have finally had enough of Time Warner's crap. We are switching to netflix + antenna. I would appreciate a recommendation from the experts on which antenna to get. Here are the details of our situation.
> 
> 
> 2 TV's: One Samsung LN46A650 (using it's built in tuner)
> 
> One old SD RCA TV (using a TIVAX STB-S8 tuner)
> 
> 
> On the second floor of an apartment building with the balcony facing North.
> 
> 
> h++p:// www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9c6ba53d862144
> 
> 
> Ideally we would like to pick up at least ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX. Anything above that would be a plus.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for your recommendations.



Switch to an apartment that faces south. Whatever you might receive will have to come through your building to get to your antenna, so there are no good prospects without knowing the details of your building's construction.


Good luck.


----------



## Impalpable




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/18468771
> 
> 
> Switch to an apartment that faces south. Whatever you might receive will have to come through your building to get to your antenna, so there are no good prospects without knowing the details of your building's construction.
> 
> 
> Good luck.



Brick exterior, 3 stories tall. There is essentially a hallway corridor (open air on both ends) and another apartment (400 ft wide) between me and the exterior wall facing the towers.


Perhaps my best bet is to throw up one of these...


h++p:// www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10901&cs_id=1090102&p_id=4730&seq=1&format=2 


... on the patio and see what I can get. Not sure if the amp will mess with the QAM DTV tuner in the Samsung TV. The antenna seems to get good reviews.


----------



## pdxmcad

I'm located in Beaverton OR and looking to mount an antenna in the attic of a 2 story wood house. I've got lots of large pine trees between the house and the broadcast towers. Here's the TVFool report:


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9c6b49eead92e3 


Any suggestions for a suitable antenna would be appreciated.


----------



## rabbit73

pdxmcad:


Your signals are very strong, so you don't need an amplified antenna. An amplifier might cause overload. The big unknown is how much attenuation of the signals is caused by the attic. Trees that are close are worse than trees far away. You need to try different locations in your attic for best results.


Just for fun, you could try the Radio Shack Catalog #15-1874 rabbit ears and loop antenna in the attic first. You can return it if it doesn't work, but I suggest keeping it around for experiments because it's not very expensive:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077 


Moving up to a better antenna, my suggestion is the Winegard HD7694P:
http://www.winegard.com/offair/index.php


----------



## iScar

Hi guys. I was wondering if there is any realistic way I could receive channels KVRR 19 and WDAY 21 (tvfool image attached as i cant post links yet)


We have an older Radio Shack combo antenna from 8-10 years ago with a recently added CM7777 preamp and a small boosted splitter between TV's.


I am obviously in a bad area for reception and before the addition of the CM7777 we only got 5 stations, the preamp added 3 more and boosted the signal on WDAY 21 to 55% but its not enough to lock onto the signal. I assume its a lost cause but there are very little TV choices around here, its either analog translator stations or sattelite TV which we would rather not have to pay for as there is no cable ran this far out. Thanks in advance.


----------



## 300ohm

Realistically and consistant, nope. Theyre just too far and too weak. Youll still get them under Tropo conditions.



> Quote:
> a recently added CM7777 preamp and a small boosted splitter between TV's.



That boosted splitter is probably doing more harm than good. Try a simple normal splitter instead and see if you dont get a little better reception.


----------



## mclapp

iScar,

Based on you TVfool plot as 300ohm said your chances are not good but I've seen those plots to be off a bit so lets base your chances on what you actually receive with your current equipment.


How big is that RS antenna, some of those Radio Shack antennas were decent and some were junk. In any case there are antennas available that will out perform most any RS offering. If you could post a picture of your RS antenna or at least a model number someone may be able to give you an idea of what kind of a gain you could expect with a different type of antenna over what you have now.


I have had installs where people can get stations that thier TVfool plot said were in the -10-20 nm range on a regular basis but they couldn't get others that TVfool claimed were stronger. It's very hard to predict signals traveling over certain terrains not to mention other obstructions.


----------



## iScar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mclapp* /forum/post/18475190
> 
> 
> iScar,
> 
> Based on you TVfool plot as 300ohm said your chances are not good but I've seen those plots to be off a bit so lets base your chances on what you actually receive with your current equipment.
> 
> 
> How big is that RS antenna, some of those Radio Shack antennas were decent and some were junk. In any case there are antennas available that will out perform most any RS offering. If you could post a picture of your RS antenna or at least a model number someone may be able to give you an idea of what kind of a gain you could expect with a different type of antenna over what you have now.
> 
> 
> I have had installs where people can get stations that thier TVfool plot said were in the -10-20 nm range on a regular basis but they couldn't get others that TVfool claimed were stronger. It's very hard to predict signals traveling over certain terrains not to mention other obstructions.



Heres a couple pics of the antenna.


----------



## 300ohm

Its not that old. Its a Radio Shack VU-160XR.

The offical Radio Shack quoted specs are here : http://support.radioshack.com/suppor...oc44/44032.htm 

You can see pictures of it here in the 1995 and newer catalogs: http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/ 


The gains are quoted in dBd, to get dBi figures add 2.15. The quoted milage range charts are pure fantasy, so ignore them.


As you can see, the UHF dBd gains (while conservative) arent that good. A SBGH outperforms it. I have the corner reflector off of a VU-190 and can confirm that, heh.


VU-120XR and VU-190XR VHF gain charts are here : http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


Is that analog channel 5 and FM important to you ? I take it that channels 9, 12, 26 are the most viewed ones, and they are pretty strong.


----------



## iScar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/18479469
> 
> 
> Its not that old. Its a Radio Shack VU-160XR.
> 
> The offical Radio Shack quoted specs are here :
> 
> 
> The gains are quoted in dBd, to get dBi figures add 2.15. The quoted milage range charts are pure fantasy, so ignore them.
> 
> 
> As you can see, the UHF dBd gains (while conservative) arent that good. A SBGH outperforms it. I have the corner reflector off of a VU-190 and can confirm that, heh.
> 
> 
> VU-120XR and VU-190XR VHF gain charts are here :
> 
> 
> Is that analog channel 5 and FM important to you ? I take it that channels 9, 12, 26 are the most viewed ones, and they are pretty strong.



I actually dont even receive channel 5 whatsoever... which is odd to me as its relatively close, but its not important to me at all. 30, 28, 9, 12, 26 and 21 (new channel not listed on TVFool for some reason) are the ones we watch the most. Do you think a newer antenna such as a CM4228 would give better results?


----------



## 300ohm

If you dont need channel 5 and FM, then the size of the antenna can be reduced drastically with the same results. (not by cutting the VU-160, but with a smaller designed antenna) Looking at your mounting situation, thats a good thing, heh.



> Quote:
> you think a newer antenna such as a CM4228 would give better results?



The one available now is the CM4228HD, which is not as good as the old CM4228a, and Im not sure how well it would do for your channels 9 and 12. UHF wise, it would be as good as the present VU-160 and a heck of a lot smaller.


I take it you rotate the antenna by hand for channel 12. That unlisted channel 21 will decrease the chance of getting that other distant channel 21 drastically.


Personally, I would build a SBGH with NARODs or a M4 bowtie with a 32" wide reflector to take care of your needs in a smaller, less wind load manner.


----------



## iScar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/18480424
> 
> 
> If you dont need channel 5 and FM, then the size of the antenna can be reduced drastically with the same results. (not by cutting the VU-160, but with a smaller designed antenna) Looking at your mounting situation, thats a good thing, heh.
> 
> 
> 
> The one available now is the CM4228HD, which is not as good as the old CM4228a, and Im not sure how well it would do for your channels 9 and 12. UHF wise, it would be as good as the present VU-160 and a heck of a lot smaller.
> 
> 
> I take it you rotate the antenna by hand for channel 12. That unlisted channel 21 will decrease the chance of getting that other distant channel 21 drastically.
> 
> 
> Personally, I would build a SBGH with NARODs or a M4 bowtie with a 32" wide reflector to take care of your needs in a smaller, less wind load manner.



Channel 12 is usually strong enough to come in no matter where the antenna is turned but yes we do turn it by hand to get 21 or 12 on a bad reception day.


Also the unlisted channel 21 is from the same area as 12, since it isnt the same direction as the other distant 21 would it still effect it?


I will have to look into what it takes to build one of those antennas... Thanks for the advice.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> since it isnt the same direction as the other distant 21 would it still effect it?



Since they each would be close to the null zone of any antenna, that would improve the chances of getting it.



> Quote:
> and boosted the signal on WDAY 21 to 55%



Is that 55% consistant from day to day, or was that just a one time measurement ? And are you sure it wasnt the stronger 21 ?

And whats your signal reading on KVRR 19 ?



> Quote:
> (not by cutting the VU-160, but with a smaller designed antenna)



Actually, in your specific case, I take that back. I did a quick chop of Ken Nists model of the VU-120XR, which is very close to the VU-160XR, leaving only 3 pairs of vhf elements and phasing lines that are behind the uhf corner reflector. Net Gain on channels 9 and 12 decreased very little, if at all. (Raw Gain 7.59 dBi on channel 9 with a SWR of 1.48. Raw Gain of 7.24 dBi on channel 12 with a SWR of 1.29 after the chop)


In general though, I dont like to chop up working commercial antennas. If you do chop it, do it so the chop can be easily undone if need be. I would also change the mounting position so the antenna is rebalanced. The benefit of the chop would be less weight and wind resistance.


----------



## drewwho




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/18466889
> 
> *drewwho:* You might be interested in the Ceton InfiniTV 4, a Quad ATSC/QAM Tuner PCI card:
> http://www.cetoncorp.com/products.php
> 
> Website is accepting pre-orders now for shipments beginning 31May2010.
> 
> It also supports a CableCARD for decrypting digital cable channels.....



No, for a number of reasons. I don't run windows, and I'm a cheapskate who likes to get everything OTA and via hulu







I just wish the HDHR's tuners were better.


Oddly, I'm having better luck getting stations from a neighboring market that are 58 miles away. The signal strength is low (mid 60s), but whatever SNQ is, it is steady at 100%, and I have very few tuning errors.


Drew


----------



## iScar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/18482468
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that 55% consistant from day to day, or was that just a one time measurement ? And are you sure it wasnt the stronger 21 ?
> 
> And whats your signal reading on KVRR 19 ?



yes it goes from about 50-56% all the time, We can receive it on very calm clear nights, just not during peak hours or when its windy.


KVRR 19 is about 40% i think, I will check it again more extensively with positioning tomorrow and let you know.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> KVRR 19 is about 40% i think, I will check it again more extensively with positioning tomorrow and let you know.



KVRR 19 at -11.4 NM and 75.4 miles should be stronger than WDAY 21 at -16.2 NM and 108.7 miles.

If youre that close to locking on with the uhf part of the VU-160XR, then a higher gain antenna (and more height) may do the trick. If building, I would try a DBGH with NARODs. If you want to buy, then try a Winegard HD 8800 and keep the VU-160XR for vhf-hi.


----------



## iScar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/18488134
> 
> 
> KVRR 19 at -11.4 NM and 75.4 miles should be stronger than WDAY 21 at -16.2 NM and 108.7 miles.
> 
> If youre that close to locking on with the uhf part of the VU-160XR, then a higher gain antenna (and more height) may do the trick. If building, I would try a DBGH with NARODs. If you want to buy, then try a Winegard HD 8800 and keep the VU-160XR for vhf-hi.



Just checked again and KVRR fluctuates between 27 and 39 so its not a strong signal... There is a large tree close to the antenna and the antenna is somewhat blocked by it when it is turned for KVRR. So I don't know if that would cause a problem.


----------



## 300ohm

Yes, the tree would cause a lot of gain loss. Any chance for a better location for the antenna ?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> but whatever SNQ is,



Signal to Noise Quality % ??


----------



## iScar




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/18488951
> 
> 
> Yes, the tree would cause a lot of gain loss. Any chance for a better location for the antenna ?



Possibly but we would probably need a freestanding tower from somewhere, so i'm not sure.


----------



## holl_ands

*Multi-Bay Bowtie 4nec2 Analysis Additions and Revisions:*
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay 


1. *Hi-VHF 2-Bay & 4-Bay Bowties (NO Reflector)*: Added Ch2-FM Band performance.

SWR and Raw Gain over the FM Band is very usable, but SWR is much higher on Ch6 and

excessive on Ch2-5....however, YMMV.....


2. *Hi-VHF 2-Bay with 56"x72" Flat Reflector* (2"Hx4"W) Hi-VHF & Ch2-FM Band - All New.

SWR for Ch2-FM was excessive, except for perhaps the top end of the FM Band,

but if the signal strength is strong enough and the VSWR nulls occur somewhere other

than the end of the coax (and the phase of the moon....)....as usual, YMMV....


3. *UHF M4 (9.5x9.0) Flat vs Swept Bowties (under UHF 4-Bay Bowties w Refl.):*

Added Ch2-FM Band performance and reran UHF & Hi-VHF results (due to a file

editing error, one whisker was missing). Impact on results was very minor, notable

change was 0.5 dB better above Ch51. Analyzed ALL AWG10 M4, in addition to

AWG8 (elements) & AWG12 (feedline) in mclapp's drawings.


4. *UHF mclapp's M4 (9.5x9.0) 4-Bay - NO Refl (under UHF 4-Bay Bowties - if NO Refl.)*:

Added analysis of Forward Swept Bowties. No improvement in Gain, except above Ch51.


5. *UHF Old CM-4228 with RF Combiner Mod* (under UHF 8-Bay Bowties w Refl):

Added analysis of using an RF Combiner in a standard Horizontal Stack

configuration, rather than the crossover feedline between the left & right 4-Bays.

Significant Raw Gain improvement for low UHF channels and especially above Ch51....

but Net Gain only improved above Ch51 due to the RF Combiner Mod degrading

SWR on the low UHF channels.


6. *Updated Multi-Bay Comparison Charts:*
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/compare


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/14789116
> 
> 
> Is that better than the ones that are found in local stores such as Fry's where I can get several for cheap? The ones are use look like these:
> 
> http://www.smarthome.com/7808/75-Ohm...20-Pack/p.aspx



Hi,


that's still is not a good price for a 75 Ohm resistor with one of its leads sticking out as the conductor and the other soldered to ground of the f - connector.


A cable stumble boy installer tripped and dumped his tray into the flower bed decades ago and supplied me with all that I would ever need.


The expensive pretty ones might look good enough on the Xmas tree to not cause a huge uproar with the spouse as to the price.


SHF


----------



## gl1000

Hi there:


New to this forum. I need help for an attic/roof antenna. Here is my tvfool link:



With an old rabbit ear, I can pretty much get most local channels except ABC (VHF10). I have to adjust the rabbit ear for individual channels for watchable signal strength though.


I am thinking about getting a CM4228HD on the rooftop (2 story house) and like to get all local channels with good signal strength (coming from two different directions) and without a rotor. It will also be a plus if any channels from NYC can be obtained.


Any suggestion? Thank you very much in advance.


----------



## gl1000

Sorry here is the tvfool file. I was not allowed to post it until 3 posts later.


----------



## gl1000

Here it is.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...cd724a32ac7217


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gl1000* /forum/post/18582818
> 
> 
> I'd like to get all local channels with good signal strength (coming from two different directions) and without a rotor. It will also be a plus if any channels from NYC can be obtained.



If I lived in your house I'd get three antennas.


A 2 bay UHF aimed at the Hartford antenna farms.

A small high band VHF yagi aimed at New Haven.

Add them together with a UVSJ.

If you have multiple TV sets get an AP 2870 preamp.


Next the third antenna would be an HD7698P aimed at New York. It should have an HDP-269 preamp.


Use an A/B switch at the TV set(s) to watch CT or NY stations.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/18585235
> 
> 
> If I lived in your house I'd get three antennas.
> 
> 
> A 2 bay UHF aimed at the Hartford antenna farms.
> 
> A small high band VHF yagi aimed at New Haven.
> 
> Add them together with a UVSJ.
> 
> If you have multiple TV sets get an AP 2870 preamp.
> 
> 
> Next the third antenna would be an HD7698P aimed at New York. It should have an HDP-269 preamp.
> 
> 
> Use an A/B switch at the TV set(s) to watch CT or NY stations.



I would use a rotator with one antenna and one preamp.


YMMV


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gl1000* /forum/post/18582818
> 
> 
> Hi there:
> 
> 
> New to this forum. I need help for an attic/roof antenna. Here is my tvfool link:
> 
> 
> 
> With an old rabbit ear, I can pretty much get most local channels except ABC (VHF10). I have to adjust the rabbit ear for individual channels for watchable signal strength though.
> 
> 
> I am thinking about getting a CM4228HD on the rooftop (2 story house) and like to get all local channels with good signal strength (coming from two different directions) and without a rotor. It will also be a plus if any channels from NYC can be obtained.
> 
> 
> Any suggestion? Thank you very much in advance.



I have a similar setup with a CM4228HD and get from two directions without a rotor.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *klandry7* /forum/post/18591236
> 
> 
> I have a similar setup with a CM4228HD and get from two directions without a rotor.



The ability to receive from multiple directions is completely dependent on the individual circumstance. Distances, angles, and relative signal powers and channels all play into the equation.


Generally, reliable reception can only be estimated of the front or primary lobe of any directional antenna (and the 4228 is VERY directional). Any reception from any other direction is going to be highly variable and will likely require hands-on experimentation to see if it might work.


IOW, just because it happens to work in your case does not mean it will work in another that may have completely different parameters.


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/18592206
> 
> 
> IOW, just because it happens to work in your case does not mean it will work in another that may have completely different parameters.



Unfortunately that was my case. I have a CM4228HD and tried to pull in a single station 50 miles to the south (aiming south) while relying the backside to get stations to the north at about 15 mile away. The southern station came in fine and the northern stations came in at acceptable levels but the signal quality was poor, probably from mutlipath, and basically unwatchable.


The solution was two antennas joined with a jointenna.


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/18592206
> 
> 
> The ability to receive from multiple directions is completely dependent on the individual circumstance. Distances, angles, and relative signal powers and channels all play into the equation.
> 
> 
> Generally, reliable reception can only be estimated of the front or primary lobe of any directional antenna (and the 4228 is VERY directional). Any reception from any other direction is going to be highly variable and will likely require hands-on experimentation to see if it might work.
> 
> 
> IOW, just because it happens to work in your case does not mean it will work in another that may have completely different parameters.



You're right, there are so many variables that every situation is different. I was just suggesting to try one antenna first without a rotor. Just having an outdoors antenna will be an incredible improvement over rabbit ears he is using now.


----------



## gl1000

These suggestions are great! I might get one (a 4-bay or 422HD) first to try on the rooftop. Then decide what to do.

Thank you all very much!


----------



## adude

Hello,


Here is the TvFool link for my home.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...cd72321d4e6ed1 


My first choice would be to keep the antenna in the attic. The second option is to mount on the roof. I have an old antenna, but its rusted and the previous owner had the wiring done in the wrong way. Currently a rabbit ear antenna picks lots of channels, but some of those have the square boxes appear in the picture sometimes.


If someone can recommend an antenna, it will be really appreciated. I was leaning for DB4 but would like to hear the opinion from experts here.


----------



## Dave Loudin

You've got three VHF stations (KABC, KTTV, and KCAL) to contend with, and the DB4 is not designed for much sensitivity in that band. You apparently have a clear view to the Mt. Wilson transmitter site, so you should be able to use an RCA ANT751 antenna.


----------



## adude

Dave,

Thanks for the quick response. One more question - how would Channel Master 2016 work at my home? Reason I ask is, one of the amazon reviewer is from Los Alamitos which is 5 miles away from my home and he is having great reception with it. So, I am leaning towards it a bit.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> One more question - how would Channel Master 2016 work at my home?



I take it youre only looking to get the stations that are due north. The CM 2016 will work fine. Hard to say whether youll have problems in the attic, too many variables. Outdoors is a better option.


----------



## adude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/18596365
> 
> 
> I take it youre only looking to get the stations that are due north. The CM 2016 will work fine. Hard to say whether youll have problems in the attic, too many variables. Outdoors is a better option.



Yes, you are right on. I am interested in stations on north.


----------



## wildwillie6




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *klandry7* /forum/post/18593519
> 
> 
> You're right, there are so many variables that every situation is different. I was just suggesting to try one antenna first without a rotor. Just having an outdoors antenna will be an incredible improvement over rabbit ears he is using now.



I'd like to put in a good word for "attic antenna + outdoor with rotator + Join-Tenna." Here's my reasoning: I tried an attic antenna first and got a few nearby stations to the northeast of my location. Then I called a professional installer and got a big ChannelMaster 4248 with rotator, and was able to pick up other more distant stations I really wanted to the southeast. Then I put in the Join-Tenna and I get all of the stations now without having to rotate -- very handy when I want to record programming from two different directions while I'm away.


Ideally, I could have figured out exactly how to point the CM 4248 in advance and wouldn't have needed the rotator, but since I didn't want to do roof work and didn't want to call the installers back for fine-tuning, it was great to have it up there. I also don't regret trying the attic installation. It _could_ have worked for all my stations, and I wouldn't know until I tried. And even when it wouldn't pick up the distant stations, it gave me a second directional antenna to feed into the Join-Tenna.


(Caveat: I lucked out, in that I didn't have a lot of close-together channels that would have overwhelmed the Join-Tenna's capabilities. Others may not be so lucky.)


----------



## adude

Okay, just an update:


I decided to go with Channel Master 3016 over 2016 because this one was available for few bucks more at local Frys. Went over to the roof to remove existing chimeny mounted antenna and found out the previous owner had no grounding done. Not to coax and not to antenna mast. Oh well, off now to figure out the grounding of home and how to route the grounding wire.


And the new antenna is so big, I can't put it in the Attic.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *adude* /forum/post/18612282
> 
> 
> I decided to go with Channel Master 3016...
> 
> 
> And the new antenna is so big, I can't put it in the Attic.



Having elements wide enough to work with the Low-Band is the problem and it's not needed for DTV here.


One of these is a lot easier to manage in an attic:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Antennas&sku=


----------



## adude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/18615536
> 
> 
> Having elements wide enough to work with the Low-Band is the problem and it's not needed for DTV here.



You mean, 3016 would not be good for reception in orange county compared to the ones optimized for channels 7-69? I have mounted the antenna, but still trying to figure out the grounding before I connect it to coax.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *adude* /forum/post/18616055
> 
> 
> You mean, 3016 would not be good for reception in orange county compared to the ones optimized for channels 7-69?



No, he's saying that you could have saved a significant amount of size and weight by getting an antenna designed for ch 7-69 only, that performs comparably to the 3016 for those channels. You would also have been more likely to be able to fit it in your attic. As far as you're concerned, the long elements for ch 2-6 are effectively dead weight and bulk.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> As far as you're concerned, the long elements for ch 2-6 are effectively dead weight and bulk.



Yep. You should have stuck to your original plan for the CM2016, unless youre using it for an FM antenna also. Outdoors is much better than indoors.


The AntennaCraft HBU22 listed above is also a good choice.


----------



## Pcomazzi

I posted this yesterday in the Orlando forum, but haven't gotten any responses. WESH (ch 11VHF) is the only VHF channel in the area, so this is becoming a real pain in the butt but here is my issue:


Have a weird issue with antenna/reception. At 7am this morning both WESH feeds went to 0% signal strength. All other channels are fine, but they are UHF. My antenna is a AntennaCraft HDX1000.


So I went and looked at the power injector that came with the HDX1000, no power light. Disconnected the antenna feed and the power light comes back on. So I figured there is either a short or the injector went bad.


Purchased a Winegard 8275 preamp and made all the necessary connections. Turn the power on and the power light is lit. So I assumed the HDX1000 power injector went bad. However, still no signal on WESH feeds??? All other channels are fine. I did notice that I had better signal strength with the HDX1000's power injector over the 8275 (couldn't locate a CM7777).


The HDX1000 is mounted outside with no obstructions and the cable from the preamp is about 20ft in length to the antenna with a grounding block. From the 8275 it goes into a power distribution into 4 leads, 2 directly to a HDHome and 2 to 2 different TVs. I have tried just making a connection from the 8725 to the HDHomerun and directly to a TV. Both don't detect the VHF channel.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pcomazzi* /forum/post/18664321
> 
> 
> I posted this yesterday in the Orlando forum, but haven't gotten any responses. WESH (ch 11VHF) is the only VHF channel in the area, so this is becoming a real pain in the butt but here is my issue:
> 
> 
> Have a weird issue with antenna/reception. At 7am this morning both WESH feeds went to 0% signal strength. All other channels are fine, but they are UHF. My antenna is a AntennaCraft HDX1000.
> 
> 
> So I went and looked at the power injector that came with the HDX1000, no power light. Disconnected the antenna feed and the power light comes back on. So I figured there is either a short or the injector went bad.
> 
> 
> Purchased a Winegard 8725 preamp and made all the necessary connections. Turn the power on and the power light is lit. So I assumed the HDX1000 power injector went bad. However, still no signal on WESH feeds??? All other channels are fine. I did notice that I had better signal strength with the HDX1000's power injector over the 8725 (couldn't locate a CM7777).
> 
> 
> The HDX1000 is mounted outside with no obstructions and the cable from the preamp is about 20ft in length to the antenna with a grounding block. From the 8725 it goes into a power distribution into 4 leads, 2 directly to a HDHome and 2 to 2 different TVs. I have tried just making a connection from the 8725 to the HDHomerun and directly to a TV. Both don't detect the VHF channel.



Is that a 8725 or 8275 preamp? Did you remove the internal amplifier on the HDX1000? This may be where the problem was in your signal going away. I would look at a Winegard HD7694P antenna if you have good line-of-sight to your desired stations.


----------



## Pcomazzi

Enniu,


Thanks for your response. Yes, sorry it is a 8275 preamp. I justed corrected my orignal post. I can be a little dyslexic. I did remove the internal amplifer on the HDX1000 and only left the 8275 preamp connected. I never had both connected at any time. I am surprised if something happened to the VHF portion of the antenna as its only 4 months old!


I saw the winegard 7694P but was thinking of their HD8200U as i might move a little further away in a few months.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pcomazzi* /forum/post/18664833
> 
> 
> Enniu,
> 
> 
> Thanks for your response. Yes, sorry it is a 8275 preamp. I justed corrected my orignal post. I can be a little dyslexic. I did remove the internal amplifer on the HDX1000 and only left the 8275 preamp connected. I never had both connected at any time. I am surprised if something happened to the VHF portion of the antenna as its only 4 months old!
> 
> 
> I saw the winegard 7694P but was thinking of their HD8200U as i might move a little further away in a few months.



You never can have too much antenna, in my opinion. It all depends on your mounting location. I am oriented toward the yagis and have the system shown in post 10719 on P. 358. This is for LA stations from San Diego. Works very well. I also use the 8275 preamp. More info in 10722.


The HD8200U covers all VHF and UHF. Do you really need any coverage below channel 7? This would be a larger antenna because of its low VHF coverage (channels 2-6).


----------



## Pcomazzi




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/18665187
> 
> 
> The HD8200U covers all VHF and UHF. Do you really need any coverage below channel 7? This would be a larger antenna because of its low VHF coverage (channels 2-6).



Good point, only have 1 channel on the VHF band ands its 11. Maybe the HD7698P would be better. Width is about half of the HD8200U but would a good fit if I move another 10-15 miles north.


Nice professional looking setup. I wish i could mount mine on the eave like yours.


Do you use dielectric grease on your exterior connections? I had used heat shrinking wraps on my current setup, but if i go with a larger antenna the mounting area is going to be more exposed to the elements.


Thanks for your sugesstions


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pcomazzi* /forum/post/18666196
> 
> 
> Good point, only have 1 channel on the VHF band ands its 11. Maybe the HD7698P would be better. Width is about half of the HD8200U but would a good fit if I move another 10-15 miles north.
> 
> 
> Nice professional looking setup. I wish i could mount mine on the eave like yours.
> 
> 
> Do you use dielectric grease on your exterior connections? I had used heat shrinking wraps on my current setup, but if i go with a larger antenna the mounting area is going to be more exposed to the elements.
> 
> 
> Thanks for your sugesstions



Dielectric grease is not a bad idea but I have only used it in the past on ham antennas, never on TV antennas.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I had used heat shrinking wraps on my current setup



Unfortunately, that could also trap moisture inside, making drying out slower.


----------



## GrandPixel

Is this thread the best place to ask for antenna recommendation?


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GrandPixel* /forum/post/18690913
> 
> 
> Is this thread the best place to ask for antenna recommendation?



Either here or in your local thread is fine.


----------



## GrandPixel

 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe99f7273ae0 


Is there another place besides tvfool that I can use for analysis also?


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GrandPixel* /forum/post/18690997
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe99f7273ae0
> 
> 
> Is there another place besides tvfool that I can use for analysis also?



TVfool is usually the best. There also is antennaweb.org but it is not so detailed.


You will need a combination UHF and high VHF antenna to get most of your stations. You have a good LOS to most. What do you have for mounting? Attic or outside?


----------



## GrandPixel

It will be outside. I would like to get as many stations as possible. I don't really understand how that is accomplished since directional antennas are usually recommended.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I don't really understand how that is accomplished since directional antennas are usually recommended.



Your signals in the WWN and EES direction are strong. Is there anything in the other directions thats important ? It doesnt look like it to me. A DIY reflector-less SBGH with NARODs could fill your needs in the 2 main directions that are close to 180 degrees apart without using a rotor.


----------



## GrandPixel

I have no idea what that is, except DIY - means I gotta build something







I have no idea what stations or channels exist, which ones are important. I just want an antenna that will give me the best reception and channel selection, reasonably speaking.


----------



## GrandPixel

Wow. I went to antennaweb.org and adjusting the height above ground level really changes the signal levels and available stations, a lot!


----------



## GrandPixel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GrandPixel* /forum/post/18691749
> 
> 
> It will be outside. I would like to get as many stations as possible. I don't really understand how that is accomplished since directional antennas are usually recommended.



Can I combine directional and omni-directional?


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GrandPixel* /forum/post/18692372
> 
> 
> Can I combine directional and omni-directional?



If you really want the best setup outside and want as many channels as you can get in all directions, you will need a ROTATOR and a good UHF/High VHF antenna like the Winegard 7694P.


Antennas are directional by NOT being omni-directional; that is how they have gain.


I have a picture of what I use for LA stations from San Diego County.


----------



## GrandPixel

But can I have a directional antenna and also an omnidirectional antenna, and combine them?


Looks like I can get the Winegard 7694P for $50 or so, what about the rotator?


Also, how does a rotator work, do you program it to rotate when your tuner is on certain channels? What about if there are multiple tv's sharing the antenna, each tuner would only get a certain subset of channels at any given time, depending which way the antenna is pointed, right? Can I have multiple directional antennas?


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GrandPixel* /forum/post/18692947
> 
> 
> But can I have a directional antenna and also an omnidirectional antenna, and combine them?
> 
> 
> Looks like I can get the Winegard 7694P for $50 or so, what about the rotator?
> 
> 
> Also, how does a rotator work, do you program it to rotate when your tuner is on certain channels? What about if there are multiple tv's sharing the antenna, each tuner would only get a certain subset of channels at any given time, depending which way the antenna is pointed, right? Can I have multiple directional antennas?



Yes, you could have multiple directional antennas if you are only interested in two directions. Combining antennas would reduce signal strength about 3-4 db (about half power) or you could use a switch if you brought both lead-in coax into the house. The half power is the same as you get when splitting to two TV's.


Two antennas would be less than a rotator and that would be one that you manually set the direction on the controller. I have not seen one that switches according to the channel you are on.


You do have strong signals at your location but it looks like the only Fox station is the only one on VHF?


----------



## GrandPixel

I don't really even know what UHF and VHF means, so I don't know if Fox is the only VHF. How much do you think a rotator would cost. And how do rotators work? Obviously it rotates the antenna, but what components are involved and how to do you control rotation?


----------



## Ennui

UHF is the "real" channels on the TVFool report above channel 13. VHF is the channels from 2 to 13. High VHF is the channels from 7 to 13. UHF is ultra-high frequency and VHF is very high frequency.


The rotator consists of a motor unit (you can see mine mounted below the lower antenna) and is controlled by a compass display box near your TV. They are usually connected via a separate 4 wire flat cable. Mine is a Yaesu 450XL that I used many years ago for ham antennas. This is much more power than you need for the single Winegard antenna. You can Google rotators to see many choices. Most of your signals are in the same direction so you would not be rotating it very much.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GrandPixel* /forum/post/18692947
> 
> 
> But can I have a directional antenna and also an omnidirectional antenna, and combine them?
> 
> 
> Looks like I can get the Winegard 7694P for $50 or so, what about the rotator?



The HD7694P will get all of your local network stations. There are LPTV stations near you that transmit a variety of non-mainstream programs. In most cases you can ignore them.


If you opt for a rotor, simply remember to return it to 291° when you are done watching something in another direction. Don't record stuff from other directions.


----------



## GrandPixel

Thanks for the clear explanation Ennui.


Will a directional antenna also pick up stations that are in other directions but nearby? I don't think I want to use a rotator. I rather keep it simple. Also, I don't want to have to adjust it as I will have multiple tuners connected. That is why I was asking if I can combine two or more antennas.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GrandPixel* /forum/post/18693405
> 
> 
> Thanks for the clear explanation Ennui.
> 
> 
> Will a directional antenna also pick up stations that are in other directions but nearby? I don't think I want to use a rotator. I rather keep it simple. Also, I don't want to have to adjust it as I will have multiple tuners connected. That is why I was asking if I can combine two or more antennas.



If you look at the pattern on Winegard's website, you will see it is not sensitive to the side or back. As I said, this is how you get gain in a directional antenna. Unless the station is very local and/or very strong, you probably won't see it.


I do not see what stations you want to pick up. What do you want that is not in the 290 degree direction?


It looks like for $75 you could get the rotator so if you think you may want to change direction, you can. I very rarely change my direction with my rotator. But all your network stations are in the same direction.


This discussion started with you saying you wanted as many stations as possible. For that, you need a high gain, directional antenna and a rotator.


----------



## GrandPixel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/18693499
> 
> 
> I do not see what stations you want to pick up. What do you want that is not in the 290 degree direction?
> 
> 
> ... all your network stations are in the same direction.



All I know is that I see stations in many directions on the TV Fool map, so obviously if I am using a single directional antenna, a lot of them get dropped, right?


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GrandPixel* /forum/post/18693574
> 
> 
> All I know is that I see stations in many directions on the TV Fool map, so obviously if I am using a single directional antenna, a lot of them get dropped, right?



That is what a directional antenna does.


You would probably not receive anything below WGOX on the list as shown on your TVFool report.


----------



## GrandPixel

So how do you pick up the rest of the stations?


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GrandPixel* /forum/post/18693590
> 
> 
> So how do you pick up the rest of the stations?



As I said, with a high gain directional antenna and a rotator but you will still not get anything below 0 Nm reliably.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I have no idea what stations or channels exist, which ones are important. I just want an antenna that will give me the best reception and channel selection, reasonably speaking.



From TVFool, you can reasonably expect stations that are in the green and yellow. You can google on the station call letters to see what kind of programming they have. For example, your WAWD-DT in the east is a Tourist Network. WPAN-DT in the east is a paid programming channel, ie Infomercials non-stop. The other one you could get in the east is a low power analog station, normally those are even worse to watch than the Tourist or Infomercial networks, heh.

So, do the channels in the east appeal to you ?


----------



## GrandPixel

Any way to receive stations from multiple directions without a rotator? I guess I don't understand why I cannot combine a couple of directional antennas with a multi-directional antenna and combine their signals. I understand there is some signal loss, but could I use an amplifier to negate that?


As far as channels that are appealing, no they are not especially, but I am interested in the concept of "how do I get them" as much as "will I watch them"


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I understand there is some signal loss, but could I use an amplifier to negate that?



When combining two non identical antennas, pointing in different directions, you could get some horrible losses from each of the antennas.


A preamp only takes care of the losses after the antenna terminals, like from the coax, splitters and from a weak TV tuner amp.


Signals below 0 NM youll generally only get on tropo days, and in the south like Florida they are much more frequent than in the north. A rotor could help there, but during a tropo you may get them anyway, no matter which way the antenna is pointed. Tropos are also nuisances because they can knock out your local channels.


Rotors basically start at $59 and go up from there.


----------



## Ennui

Rotators


----------



## Ennui

Double entry.


----------



## 300ohm

Heh, yep, rotator is more correct as to its function. Rotor is the commonly accepted slang. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotor


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/18694476
> 
> 
> Heh, yep, rotator is more correct as to its function. Rotor is the commonly accepted slang. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotor










I am "single handedly"?? trying to correct that. I have had a ham license since 1956 and never heard "rotor" used until this forum. If you look at the Wiki article, rotor is not used at all.


----------



## GrandPixel




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/18694170
> 
> 
> When combining two non identical antennas, pointing in different directions, you could get some horrible losses from each of the antennas.
> 
> 
> A preamp only takes care of the losses after the antenna terminals, like from the coax, splitters and from a weak TV tuner amp.
> 
> 
> Signals below 0 NM youll generally only get on tropo days, and in the south like Florida they are much more frequent than in the north. A rotor could help there, but during a tropo you may get them anyway, no matter which way the antenna is pointed. Tropos are also nuisances because they can knock out your local channels.
> 
> 
> Rotors basically start at $59 and go up from there.




Still don't really understand. And what in the world is a tropo?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> If you look at the Wiki article, rotor is not used at all.



??????











> Quote:
> Rotor (antenna), an electric motor that rotates an antenna to the direction of transmission or reception


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> And what in the world is a tropo?



Its a tropospheric event that causes signals to go haywire and go much further distances than normal. Forcasts here : http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo.html


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/18694914
> 
> 
> ??????



If you click on it, the article explains further. That is where rotor is not used at all. And, after all, Wiki is user defined. So, I assume some user from this forum







put that definition in there. And I would never call it "commonly used slang". Try Google.


----------



## 300ohm

Google on tv antenna rotor and youll see a lot of rotor usage.


The slang probably springs from the Alliance Tenna-Rotor series, the most popular rotators in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Since I still have one of those, mine is definately a rotor, it says so right on it, heh.


----------



## mlmahon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/18695166
> 
> 
> Google on tv antenna rotor and youll see a lot of rotor usage.
> 
> 
> The slang probably springs from the Alliance Tenna-Rotor series, the most popular rotators in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Since I still have one of those, mine is definately a rotor, it says so right on it, heh.



The current terminology uses 'rotator'. But like you said, back in the golden age of TV, I grew up setting up TV's and antennas as a kid in my grandfathers TV and appliance business and 'rotor' was the only term I know of that was ever used. I still call it a 'rotor'.


-ML


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GrandPixel* /forum/post/18692372
> 
> 
> Can I combine directional and omni-directional?



Yes, you can combine them with a splitter/combiner. Sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GrandPixel* /forum/post/18692947
> 
> 
> Also, how does a rotator work, do you program it to rotate when your tuner is on certain channels? What about if there are multiple tv's sharing the antenna, each tuner would only get a certain subset of channels at any given time, depending which way the antenna is pointed, right? Can I have multiple directional antennas?



In theory, it can be done. It would be a very expensive custom system; not ordinarily done.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GrandPixel* /forum/post/18693405
> 
> 
> Will a directional antenna also pick up stations that are in other directions but nearby? I don't think I want to use a rotator. I rather keep it simple. Also, I don't want to have to adjust it as I will have multiple tuners connected. That is why I was asking if I can combine two or more antennas.



A directional antenna will also pickup stations that are in other directions but nearby. Whether it works for you will depend upon the directional characteristics of your antenna and the strength of the various signals. The best quality reception is when the antenna is aimed directly at the station. To give you what you want, it will not be simple.


Some people are lucky if they have two groups of stations that are 180 degrees apart. They can use an antenna without a reflector to pick up strong signals from both directions.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GrandPixel* /forum/post/18693697
> 
> 
> Any way to receive stations from multiple directions without a rotator? I guess I don't understand why I cannot combine a couple of directional antennas with a multi-directional antenna and combine their signals. I understand there is some signal loss, but could I use an amplifier to negate that?
> 
> 
> As far as channels that are appealing, no they are not especially, but I am interested in the concept of "how do I get them" as much as "will I watch them"





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GrandPixel* /forum/post/18694849
> 
> 
> Still don't really understand.



It's not an easy concept to grasp, and it's not a matter of loss that an amplifier can correct.


When two antennas are combined, both receive many of the same signals. When these signals reach the combining point they don't always arrive at the same instant to combine properly. If one signal (from the same station) arrives at a different time in the RF sine wave cycle than the other, there can be complete addition of the two, partial cancellation of the two, or complete cancellation of the two.


The exception, where combining has a good chance of success is when two identical antennas, aimed at the same azimuth, are combined with equal lengths of coax. Any other case is "iffy," and requires an empirical approach (trial-and-error). To use the technical term, the signals must be in phase.


The usual approach is to combine the signals using filters, like the Channel Master Jointenna, or custom filters (expensive) from Tin Lee in Canada. For example, the filter for Antenna A (a bandpass filter) would accept channel no. 1 and reject all others. The filter for Antenna B (a bandstop filter) would reject channel no. 1 and pass all the rest. This keeps any channel number no. 1 signal picked up by Antenna B from interfering with the channel no. 1 signal picked up by Antenna A at the combining point.


Another way, when a rotator is not wanted, is to use an A/B switch to select different antennas.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe99f7273ae0 


After looking at your tvfool report, I don't see any need for multiple antennas. Just put your antenna up, aim it a 290 degrees, and split it for as many sets as you have to get most everything down to FOX WALA.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The current terminology uses 'rotator'.



Yeah, but with current technology term usage, where every thing is abbreviated to the hilt and cut off to the first capital letters and grouped, shortening rotator to rotor is not the worst possible sin, heh.


But unfortunately, shortening seems to be a necessary evil, because typing extra to convey the same thought, reduces a writers willingness to write and a readers willingness to read. Assuming everyone understands the same acronyms.


----------



## dr1394

Norm's Rotor Service.

http://www.rotorservice.com/ 


Count the number of times he uses the word "rotor" on the website.


Ron


----------



## AntAltMike

Our "rotor" wire snaked behind the "frigidare".


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/18694627
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am "single handedly"?? trying to correct that. I have had a ham license since 1956 and never heard "rotor" used until this forum. If you look at the Wiki article, rotor is not used at all.



Some call a small stream a crick, but it's really a creek.

Sometimes a numbered highway is a called a root, but it's really a route.

A motorized antenna turning device can be referred to as a rotor, but it's really a rotator. (but with two fewer keystrokes.)


I have two Telrex rotors. Google shows 2110 web sites that call them rotors and 2070 that call them rotators.


At least you knew what I was referring to.


----------



## mferre3

i'm trying to determine which antenna to buy and any help i can get on the matter would be quite helpful. i live only ~11miles from los, but there's a 4 story building in the line of sight about 3 houses down. so i was thinking of setting up an exterior antenna about 75 feet from where the tv is to go around the behemoth... i was originally gonna buy the monoprice exterior antenna just because i've always liked monoprice's quality and prices (under $30) but when i talked to the rep he said that 75 feet is too many feet and the picture will diminish even with the amp. so my question is: is there any (cheap) antenna i can buy that will go the 75 feet w/out signal loss? any other suggestions are also welcome!


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mferre3* /forum/post/18698219
> 
> 
> Is there any (cheap) antenna i can buy that will go the 75 feet w/out signal loss? any other suggestions are also welcome!



Try the EZ-HD antenna with 75 feet of cable. If you don't split it to multiple TV sets I'd bet that it'll work.


The EZ-HD covers channels 7-69. Check to make sure that all of your local stations are within that range.


----------



## mferre3




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/18698287
> 
> 
> The EZ-HD covers channels 7-69. Check to make sure that all of your local stations are within that range.



unfortunately where i live i get channels 2 (cbs), 4 (nbc) and 5 (wb) plus another station broadcasting on 6 i've never heard of


----------



## DASven

Hello,


I'm trying to identify the antenna that the previous owners of my Mom's house have mounted there.











It's about 30 feet up, so I'm hesitant to climb up there and check it out, and I'm wondering if anybody can ID it for me. I'd like to hook up her HDTV with an ATSC tuner to it to get OTA HD, but I'm wondering what I'd be dealing with. I'm thinking about getting someone with a bucket truck or a safety harness and lanyard to hook it up, but I'd like to know what I'd need before I get them out here. She lives in Kentucky on the Tennessee border, and she's close enough to Knoxville that I can pick up a couple of stations with an indoor antenna, so I'm sure she could get them all if she hooks up that beast. Any help you could offer with suggested setups would be appreciated as well. (will she need a signal booster? what should she do since the area she's in is prone to lightning strikes? etc.)


Thanks in advance.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mferre3* /forum/post/18698380
> 
> 
> unfortunately where i live i get channels 2 (cbs), 4 (nbc) and 5 (wb) plus another station broadcasting on 6 i've never heard of



I'd be surprised if their digital channels are actually on 2, 4, and 5. Try your address in tvfool.com or antennaweb.org to see the actual RF channel numbers.


----------



## holl_ands

The Parabolic "Dish-Type" antenna appears to be the old, UHF-only Channel Master CM4251:
http://www.rocketroberts.com/cm4251/cm4251.htm 


Below it, pointed in the OPPOSITE direction is an old VHF-only antenna I can't identify.

Note that the front (shortest) element is slightly bent and appears to be missing half of

element "rear-ward" by 5 elements.

This will degrade performance, but probably not by very much....


If the downlead is as old as the antennas, it needs to be replaced with coax.

There appears to be some "black boxes" [in front of???] the dish's reflector.

Whatever antenna combiners and/or Preamps "black boxes" will definitely

need to be replaced if they are more than say 5 years old.


We don't know anything about your signal levels until you enter your location into www.tvfool.com 

and when results are displayed, copy/paste the URL (web address at top of browser) so

we can see it [since you haven't posted min # of posts to post a URL, just post what follows .com.


----------



## mferre3




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/18698391
> 
> 
> I'd be surprised if their digital channels are actually on 2, 4, and 5. Try your address in tvfool.com or antennaweb.org to see the actual RF channel numbers.



you're right... 2 is 43, 4 is 36, and 5 is 31... funny though according to tvfool i could receive 2 stations broadcasting out of channel 6: XETV and KSFV.


i will check out the EZ-HD antenna channel 6 notwithstanding. the problem is if a station starts to broadcast w/in the 2-6 range whether because is new or whatever reason... also i think my tv tuner can tune to radio and i believe those come in between 6 and 7. so i will keep exploring for the time being


----------



## DASven

Thanks for the help.


I've been to TVFool and I got this report.


/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9fbe2dca121b98


She's already getting the two "green" stations.


Edit: Check that, she's getting channels 14 and 20. The Channel Master is pointed North at the moment, which wouldn't be the correct direction to pick up Knoxville stations. Based on what I've read I guess it has a rotator, and I'd also assume that the motor and controls would be junk at this point. Based on that report I guess my best bet is to point it at 150 degrees and just leave it?


Thanks again for the assistance.


----------



## Ennui

I have about 70 feet of RG-6 cable going to my antennas with a 8275 preamp. Works well. (These are more antenna than you will need though.)










Don't forget Winegard when looking for antennas.


----------



## rabbit73

DASven,


Welcome to the forum. Her tvfool report should look like this:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe2dca121b98 


And a map is in the attachment:


----------



## goldrich

DASven, the Channel Master 4251 parabolic is a very good UHF antenna. I helped a friend install a 4251 along with a large Channel Master VHF antenna on a 48 ft. tower about 45 miles north of Indy in 1975. The original VHF antenna and preamp were replaced in 1985, while the 4251 is still on the tower and providing DTV stations from South Bend @ 81 miles and Fort Wayne @ 66 miles. It's been out in the weather (snow, ice, ice storms, etc.) for 35-years and is still going strong. In fact, he just had a new preamp and new coaxial cable installed a few days ago. Of course, when we installed in 1975 I never dreamed it would still be usable 35-years later. I no longer live in that area, but I used to have the little brother version, a 6-ft. model (4250) instead of the 7-ft. model.


For more background info on this well-known UHF antenna, check out this tribute site. http://www.rocketroberts.com/cm4251/cm4251.htm 


You might need to hire an antenna/tower installer to check it out and see if you need a new preamp, rotator, coaxial cable and to make sure the antennas are in good working order. Best wishes in getting it back to pulling in some great signals.


Steve


----------



## clcoyle

I am looking for some suggestions in choosing the right antenna? I live in So. Cal about 60 miles away from Mt. Willson (see the attached tvfool map zip code 92673). Boom length is an issue, as I live in an HOA residential area and the largest length that I can get away with is about 80 to 100. I had been considering the HBU33 but I read some comments regarding that model and it didn't seem like the best choice. I will also be in need of an amplifier due to the distance of the run.


Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## DASven

It's kind of a surprise when you find out that the antenna you've got is probably one of the most powerful available. It really doesn't look like it's got a 7 foot diameter from the ground, but by eyeballing it against the tower I guess it does. Apparently she's already outright told two people that they can have her antenna setup if the want to come get it. Luckily no one has taken her up on the offer. Right now she pays an extra $15 a month to DirecTV for the network stations, and she could save that and get a lot better picture if she just hooks up her antenna.


Thanks for the info everyone.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *clcoyle* /forum/post/18703849
> 
> 
> I am looking for some suggestions in choosing the right antenna? I live in So. Cal about 60 miles away from Mt. Willson (see the attached tvfool map zip code 92673). Boom length is an issue, as I live in an HOA residential area and the largest length that I can get away with is about 80 to 100. I had been considering the HBU33 but I read some comments regarding that model and it didn't seem like the best choice. I will also be in need of an amplifier due to the distance of the run.
> 
> 
> Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.



Your attachment didn't make it.


Your HOA is legally prohibited from regulating size or placement of your OTA antenna. See http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html


----------



## clcoyle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/18704792
> 
> 
> Your attachment didn't make it.
> 
> 
> Your HOA is legally prohibited from regulating size or placement of your OTA antenna. See http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html



Thanks for the HOA info. here is my map. I will be aiming toward the 322


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *clcoyle* /forum/post/18703849
> 
> 
> I am looking for some suggestions in choosing the right antenna. . . . . Boom length is an issue . . . . the largest length that I can get away with is about 80 to 100. I had been considering the HBU33



I recommend the Winegard HD7694P . It is shorter than the HBU33 & is a better performer as well. It should easily power 2 or maybe 3 TV's without the need for amplification if mounted outside. You should receive around 99% of the stations reliably in the green & yellow zone of the TV FOOL report.


----------



## holl_ands

Pointing both UHF and VHF antennas toward 150-deg (wrt True North) should be

good for Ch20 (CW), Ch10 (NBC), Ch23 (ION), Ch26 (ABC) and Ch34 (FOX) and

CH7 (Ind WMAK) might also be received.


However, your nearest CBS station, WYMT on Ch12, will be on the sidelobe of the

VHF antenna, with considerable gain loss, so it might not come in without a rotator.

Fortunately, there's a weak CBS station, WVLT on Ch30, that might come in on the

UHF antenna, especially if you're using a modern Preamp, like the CM7777.


Your closest PBS station on Ch14 is on the backlobe of the UHF antenna, but the

Front/Back Ratio on the CM4251 isn't all that high, so it stands a good chance of

also coming in without the pain of rotating the antenna.....Maybe....YMMV....


=============================================

DirecTV website says Local Channels are included in price of their various packages.

The $15/mo charge doesn't sound right......and 1-2 years ago it was only $5/mo.


----------



## holl_ands

If you are truly Line-Of-Sight without any other buildings or trees in the way,

RCA ANT-751 would be a smaller (about 30-in L & W), although lower gain choice.

A Preamp is recommended if you are driving more than one device.


----------



## cpcat




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DASven* /forum/post/18703935
> 
> 
> It's kind of a surprise when you find out that the antenna you've got is probably one of the most powerful available. It really doesn't look like it's got a 7 foot diameter from the ground, but by eyeballing it against the tower I guess it does. Apparently she's already outright told two people that they can have her antenna setup if the want to come get it. Luckily no one has taken her up on the offer. Right now she pays an extra $15 a month to DirecTV for the network stations, and she could save that and get a lot better picture if she just hooks up her antenna.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info everyone.





If she has D* DNS feeds then that's pretty good PQ. Don't convince her to get rid of them or she'll never get them back. I think you are mistaken in the amount she "pays extra" for them. Mine are free and I suspect hers are as well.


OTA from that location will likely be better towards Knoxville like others have said, but it really depends on the terrain. If the UHF antenna was previously pointing north there may have been a good reason.







WDKY 31 FOX from Clay's Ferry may be pretty strong, it certainly is here. The other Lexington stations are very difficult (at least from my location in Corbin). WKYT CBS 13 is soon switching to 36 but no one knows how good the signal will be yet. To the Northwest you might be surprised to pick up some Louisville signals but I doubt they'd be strong enough to be consistent.


The problem to the south is the Cumberland Plateau. Certainly, Knoxville is closer but if you are obstructed then you won't have much luck. You might give it a whirl in more or less the original position. You may get the Lexington UHF's and VHF 10 WBIR from Knoxville at that position. You won't get the VHF 7 from Knoxville as its signal is very weak to the north due to the VHF 7 in Beattyville.


There is alot of terrain b/w you and Hazard, but WYMT might be worth a try especially since you already have a nice VHF wide bander up there. Don't forget WKYT 13 though.


----------



## clcoyle

I truly have a direct line of sight to Mount Wilson since my home is on a 500 ft ridge line with excellent visibility and range. I am considering the Winegard HD 7696P, any opinions on this antenna? thanks again for all the feedback.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I am considering the Winegard HD 7696P, any opinions on this antenna?



The smaller, shorter, cheaper 7694P should be fine for your situation. You have a lot of signal strength in that direction (for everything but 46, 50 and 8*, and they look like useless low power independents so do you really want them anyway ?) so you could afford a 100 ft cable loss without a preamp and save a bit of money.










*For example, KFLA-LD looks like a mostly infomercial channel with some retro TV shows. The other two LP channels dont even have websites, always a bad sign.


----------



## clcoyle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/18708051
> 
> 
> The smaller, shorter, cheaper 7694P should be fine for your situation. You have a lot of signal strength in that direction (for everything but 46, 50 and 8*, and they look like useless low power independents so do you really want them anyway ?) so you could afford a 100 ft cable loss without a preamp and save a bit of money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *For example, KFLA-LD looks like a mostly infomercial channel with some retro TV shows. The other two LP channels dont even have websites, always a bad sign.



300ohm, thanks for your great insight and recommendation, I will get the 7694P per your suggestion. I will let you know how well it works.


Thanks, Chris


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *clcoyle* /forum/post/18708276
> 
> 
> I will get the 7694P per your suggestion.



Your welcome.


----------



## clcoyle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/18708448
> 
> 
> Your welcome.



Thanks for all your help.


----------



## clcoyle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/18708051
> 
> 
> You have a lot of signal strength in that direction (for everything but 46, 50 and 8*



In reviewing the signal chart, which column represents signal strength and what is the difference between NM (dB) and Pwr (dBm)?


Just trying to be able to decipher all the data.


Thanks to everyone for all their help and advice. Chris


----------



## 300ohm

All is explained in the TVFool FAQs :
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...d=57&Itemid=78 


NM(db):


> Quote:
> This is the predicted Noise Margin (NM) of each channel "in the air" at your location, specified in dB. You must add/subtract any gains/losses you get from your antenna, building penetration, amps, cables, splitters, and other factors present in your situation. Hypothetically speaking, you need to end up with an NM value above 0 in order to pick up a station.



Thats why KFLA-LD is not worth the large extra expense of a higher gain larger model of antenna and a preamp. Even then, its reception would be iffy at best.


PWR(dbm):


> Quote:
> This is the predicted signal power of each channel at your location, specified in dBm. Note that the relationship between NM and Pwr depends on the type of signal being detected. Analog stations require more power than an equivalent digital station to achieve the same level of NM.



dBm is the signal power floating around in the air at your location.


You lose about 5.6 db from 100 ft of quality RG-6 coax. About 1db every 18 ft. (older RG-59 is worse)


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *clcoyle* /forum/post/18708985
> 
> 
> In reviewing the signal chart, which column represents signal strength and what is the difference between NM (dB) and Pwr (dBm)?
> 
> 
> Just trying to be able to decipher all the data.
> 
> 
> Thanks to everyone for all their help and advice. Chris



The signal power column represents the forecasted level of signal at the specific location. Generally, if the signal power presented at the input to the tuner is greater than around -84 dBm for a digital signal, the signal may be minimally usable.


The NM column is the available signal power than can be lost (in the distribution network, for example) before the level at the tuner drops below the threshold of usability.


There is a lot of detail here that should be referred to: http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...d=57&Itemid=89


----------



## DASven

Thanks for all the great input.


About the $15 charge for the network stations. She gets East and West coast feeds of ABC, CBS, NBC, and FOX. I've seen her bill, and I'm pretty sure (but not positive) it is an extra $15 she is paying for them. There is an extra charge for the stations though.


----------



## Ken H




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DASven* /forum/post/18709741
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the great input.
> 
> 
> About the $15 charge for the network stations. She gets East and West coast feeds of ABC, CBS, NBC, and FOX. I've seen her bill, and I'm pretty sure (but not positive) it is an extra $15 she is paying for them. There is an extra charge for the stations though.



Depending on the package you have, locals are $5 per month. Extra boxes, beyond the 1st one, are another $5 per month. How many boxes are used?


----------



## weaver6




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ken H* /forum/post/18710630
> 
> 
> Depending on the package you have, locals are $5 per month. Extra boxes, beyond the 1st one, are another $5 per month. How many boxes are used?



He's talking about the distant stations from New York and LA.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/18709612
> 
> 
> The signal power column represents the forecasted level of signal at the specific location. Generally, if the signal power presented at the input to the tuner is greater than around -84 dBm for a digital signal, the signal may be minimally usable.
> 
> 
> The NM column is the available signal power than can be lost (in the distribution network, for example) before the level at the tuner drops below the threshold of usability.
> 
> 
> There is a lot of detail here that should be referred to: http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...d=57&Itemid=89



As a help to understanding the dB mess, 3 dB is half power; that is , if you lose 3 dB, your resultant power is 1/2 what it was before the loss.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/18724744
> 
> 
> As a help to understanding the dB mess, 3 dB is half power; that is , if you lose 3 dB, your resultant power is 1/2 what it was before the loss.



You are exactly correct as far as that explanation goes. However, it's a bit more complex than than simple fractions or percentages would tend to suggest.


Since decibels are logarithmic rather than linear, a 3 dB change in power represents either a doubling or halving of the power. A 10 dB change in power is either 10-fold increase (1,000 %) or a decrease to 1/10th (10%) of the original power.


DTV signals have up to an almost an 80 dB theoretical dynamic range in signal power between signal overload and dropout due to weak signal. That's a heck of a lot of halving or doubling that can take place while still maintaining a receivable signal even after allowing for inefficiencies, distribution losses, and other obstacles to perfect transmission and reception.


As a theoretical example, assume TVFool is perfectly accurate in estimating that a given station's signal will have a 40 dB NM in the space at your location. Disregarding the ill effects of multi-path and other problems, an antenna with 0 dBd gain and a perfect balun would present enough signal at the input to the distribution cable so that you could absorb up to 40 dB of loss without loosing reception. Typical RG6 represents about 5.5 dB of loss (worst case 6) per 100'. Add in a 4-way splitter at around 8 dB, a typical tuner noise figure of 7 dB and you've only used 21 dB of your available NM of 40.


Of course, in the real world, we have antennas with real gains, whether positive or negative, baluns with real losses, weather and atmospheric effects that may enhance or detract from signals powers, trees, and an whole host of other variables that usually subtract from the available NM. Consequently, we do have to somewhat over-engineer systems to allow for the effects of fading, excessive interfering noise, and the like whenever possible.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/18726384
> 
> 
> You are exactly correct as far as that explanation goes. However, it's a bit more complex than than simple fractions or percentages would tend to suggest.
> 
> 
> Since decibels are logarithmic rather than linear, a 3 dB change in power represents either a doubling or halving of the power. A 10 dB change in power is either 10-fold increase (1,000 %) or a decrease to 1/10th (10%) of the original power.
> 
> 
> DTV signals have up to an almost an 80 dB theoretical dynamic range in signal power between signal overload and dropout due to weak signal. That's a heck of a lot of halving or doubling that can take place while still maintaining a receivable signal even after allowing for inefficiencies, distribution losses, and other obstacles to perfect transmission and reception.



The details are dB Power Change = 10 x log (base 10) P1/P2 so 10 dB would be a ratio of 10. 80 dB would be a ratio of 100 million.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/18726444
> 
> 
> The details are dB Power Change = 10 x log (base 10) P1/P2 so 10 dB would be a ratio of 10. 80 dB would be a ratio of 100 million.



That is correct.


CECB specifications called for a dynamic range of (approx) -83 to -85 dBm to -5 dBm. That is an approximate 100 million-fold difference in power between the weakest and the strongest signal they were required to handle.


Actual measured values in FCC lab tests were closer to -87 dBm to 0 dBm measured dynamic range in the test lab environment, depending on the tuner.


----------



## videobruce

DASven; There are plenty of forum members (and others) that would kill to have that antenna on their house.


----------



## videobruce

I didn't see either one of these listed that apparently came out over a year ago;
http://www.amazon.com/Outdoor-Antenn.../dp/B002MVRCSI 
http://www.lavasat.com/product_detail.php?proid=57 


that replaeced this model;
http://www.amazon.com/Digital-outdoo...5658983&sr=1-1 


Or this no-name (not that the above is a "name" product). Item #250461703389;
http://cgi.ebay.com/DTV-HD-TV-Outdoo...77527265216921 


They appear to be a combination UHF antenna, preamp and rotor in one. Doing a little search, the PS seems to be a issue.


----------



## JJkizak

I'm torn between using a rotator setup or dual fixed antennas with a combiner, one pointing the same direction as my current antenna and the other about 90 degrees in another direction. My current antenna is 177" long VHF/UHF (9000) with about 40 ft. of RG-6. Then again maybe use two antennas aimed in the same direction with the rotator. Is this all a waste of time or can there be a substantial signal gain using the two antennas.


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> can there be a substantial signal gain using the two antennas.



The best one can achieve is a 2.5 db gain 'stacking' antennas if everything is done correctly. AFAIC, it really isn't worth it. Moving and/or raising an existing antenna would probably give you more.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JJkizak* /forum/post/18748605
> 
> 
> I'm torn between using a rotator setup or dual fixed antennas with a combiner, one pointing the same direction as my current antenna and the other about 90 degrees in another direction.



A rotor on your present antenna will solve your problems, unless you have a DVR. With a DVR, you need to have all of your stations available, if you can, so you don't have to worry about having the antenna pointed in the right direction.


I've tried using two antennas with a combiner and the results have been mixed. You lose signal in the combiner, so the weaker signals might be lost or on the edge. That was my problem for stations that are 35 or more miles away. Sometimes they'd come in, sometimes they wouldn't, depending on the atmospheric conditions.


I ended up with an antenna on a rotor so that I could get all of the stations, but also left the two other combined antennas up there. I use an A-B switch to select between the two. I leave the two combined antennas connected to the DVR, but have the option of switching to the other antenna with the rotor if need be to pick up stations the combined antennas don't get.


I didn't answer your question, but gave you some food for thought.










Larry

SF


----------



## JJkizak

Thanks for your answers. I will go the rotator route as you have enlightened me on the combiner thing. The 2.5 db double antenna gain and 3 db loss through the combiner seems like a waste of time unless there is some space diversity envolved.

JJK


----------



## goldrich

I've been using stacked UHF antennas for several years in receiving weak DTV stations for DXing purposes. I have two Triax Unix 100 wideband UHF antennas horizontally stacked (40.5 inches apart) @ 42 ft. AGL. Now I'm testing two Triax Unix 100 A-band antennas. These antennas are designed for channels 14 - 38 with a little more gain and are about two feet longer than the wideband antennas. I also have a single Antennas Direct 91XG (very similar design to the Triax wideband antennas) mounted just below the stacked antennas @ 40 ft. AGL.


Some fairly strong tropospheric enhancement in this area this morning gave me an opportunity to compare reception abilities between the new Triax A-band stack and the single 91XG. Using identical receivers (Insignia NS-DXA1) I caught some screenshots from various stations and here a few of them: WEWS-DT (15) and WUAB-DT (28), Cleveland, OH @ 253 miles; WSBT-DT (22), South Bend, IN @ 116 miles. Pictures 1, 3 and 5 are with the Triax stack and pics 2, 4 and 6 are with the single 91XG. Nothing scientific, but this is what I've seen most of the time over the years since I started using a stack. BTW, the two Triax antennas are joined via coaxial cable through a 2-way splitter in reverse. A few stations did and will decode easier with the single antenna, but my results indicate this is not a common occurrence among most.


Pics 5 and 6 of WSBT in next post due to maximum download size.


----------



## goldrich

Continuation post....Part two with pics 5 and 6.


Steve


----------



## JJkizak

Very interesting.

JJK


----------



## JJkizak

Love to have an old Parametric amplifier (10 meg bandwidth, 400 to 900 megs, noise figure 1.2 db) that would jump that up to -101 dbm. Throw in a threshold extension panel and bump it up another 3 db to -104. We used to use these things on the old tropo com systems. That -87 db figure is a real mega-yawn.

JJK


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JJkizak* /forum/post/18767607
> 
> 
> Love to have an old Parametric amplifier (10 meg bandwidth, 400 to 900 megs, noise figure 1.2 db) that would jump that up to -101 dbm. Throw in a threshold extension panel and bump it up another 3 db to -104. We used to use these things on the old tropo com systems. That -87 db figure is a real mega-yawn.
> 
> JJK



That sounds like the old DEW line tropo systems???


----------



## raj2001




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce* /forum/post/18750485
> 
> 
> The best one can achieve is a 2.5 db gain 'stacking' antennas if everything is done correctly. AFAIC, it really isn't worth it. Moving and/or raising an existing antenna would probably give you more.



Except if you're like me and you can't raise any higher. My antennas are already at 70ft. I am almost 50 miles out from NYC and the path here is 2 edge diffraction.

TV Fool 


I have a two stack of CM4228A (old style, not 4228HD) which performs much better than one by itself. I use twin lead for phasing and a SD3700 as the combiner. Works very well.


----------



## JJkizak

You are totally correct. DewEast Dye Four, Fox Tropo, Thule. and more.

JJK


----------



## JJkizak

Is the SD3700 electronic or passive?

JJK


----------



## raj2001

It's passive.


But it's 2x300 ohm in and 75 ohm out which lets you eliminate balun losses.


----------



## Ennui

Those were quite the systems. My father worked on the installation on contract to Western Electric from Collins in the 1950's. Check out dewline.org for some interesting pictures he took. Also lswilson.ca.


----------



## holl_ands

You're confusing Sensitivity (e.g. -86 dBm for a 5 dB NF ATSC Tuner)

with THERMAL NOISE FLOOR (e.g. -106 dBm for 6 MHz bandwidth):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson...3Nyquist_noise 

ATSC requires 15 dB SNR (ignoring fading), hence PERFECT Sensitivity

would be -91 dBm before it is degraded by the SYSTEM Noise Figure.


You COULD use dry ice or liquid nitrogen to cool the Preamp below

thermal noise levels....but typical EXTERNAL, man-made noise toward

the horizon would make this a useless endeavor.


Lower data rate systems and/or narrower bandwidths can reduce the

required SNR quite a bit, for example the deep space systems that use

lots of coding/repetition to work with even NEGATIVE SNRs....


----------



## holl_ands

It doesn't "eliminate balun losses"....it just moves the baluns inside the SD3700.


----------



## flampher

I am looking for input on the highest gain uhf antenna I can get. I presently have a CM4228, 8 bay, with a BT CMA 75 pre amp. I have pondered the 91xg as others seem to be pleased with it I have also read that it is troublesome to maintain (wind and snow load) and my antennas "fly pretty high" The H 8800 seems to have great gain figures, according to the chart I am attaching the link to. I have a stable installation with a rotor as I am on the deep fringe of Albany NY, and Burlington VT. I require signals from ch 14 to ch 43. Thanks ! Maybe there is a more up to date version of this ?? http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## Ennui

I have had good results with the HD9095P for the last 6 years but it has not snowed on it (yet). I added the VHF last year.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *flampher* /forum/post/18776759
> 
> 
> I have pondered the 91xg as others seem to be pleased with it I have also read that it is troublesome to maintain (wind and snow load) and my antennas "fly pretty high" The H 8800 seems to have great gain figures . . . .



Where did you read that about the 91-XG? I only remember one poster having a problem with bent directors due to a heavy ice storm. I don't feel the 8800 is any more durable than the 91-XG. While the Winegard HD 8800 is supposedly the best antenna for the lower portion of the UHF band, I find the active elements are a bit flimsy, but never have had a real problem with either antenna. (*Not yet anyway







)*


----------



## goldrich

flampher, have you checked out the antenna signal strength comparisons at this site?
http://www.antennahacks.com/ 


I've had a 91XG for six or seven years and I did lose the very front (first) pair of directors due to a low-hanging tree branch whipping it during a thunderstorm a few years ago. Otherwise, it's been fine in various Indiana weather conditions.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Thanks ! Maybe there is a more up to date version of this ?? http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html



He has a temporary page here : http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html


----------



## flampher

Thanks for all the information! I guess the CM4228 is pretty good. I am wondering if I am losing signal or have some kind of mismatch with my preamp, I use a balun on the antenna as my preamp has a 75 ohm input. I know a lot of my problems are the leaves blocking from Albany, as this works a lot better in the winter. Just looking for a little more gain.


----------



## Dave Loudin

If you want a little more advice, you could post your TVFool reception analysis.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I am wondering if I am losing signal or have some kind of mismatch with my preamp, I use a balun on the antenna as my preamp has a 75 ohm input.



Try another balun and see. Broken or poorly working baluns are pretty common. Doesnt take a lot to break the tiny wires inside, so dont try to tighten them very hard.


----------



## PCTools

Ok, a new member with HD radio.


Now, is it really worth it to try and capture FM stations on a Funke High Bander? Sure, we all know these antennas are cut for frequencies above this range, but will these antennas do anything?


At present, I have the FM trap engaged on the pre-amp and really did not want to climb the tower to flip the switch, if you guys agree that this is a loss. Perhaps, I am better off just picking up a cheap Antennacraft FM6 6 Element FM Antenna (FM6) and putting this inside the tower.

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...-(FM6)&c=AM-FM Radio Antennas&sku=


PS - I hate climbing the tower....


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/18792834
> 
> 
> Perhaps, I am better off just picking up a cheap Antennacraft FM6 6 Element FM Antenna (FM6) and putting this inside the tower.
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...-(FM6)&c=AM-FM Radio Antennas&sku=
> 
> 
> PS - I hate climbing the tower....



Absolutely the best route to take. The FM6 should easily ouperform any high bander on FM.


----------



## GrandPixel

I know everyone recommends directional antennas, but I would like to try a large nondirectional because I think it will give me more stations. I don't like the idea of having to point my antenna at a single location and missing out on stations that are not in the line of sight.


Is there a powerful nondirectional antenna that is good for both VHF and UHF


BTW: Correct me if I am wrong about wanting to try a nondirectional antenna. I know that directional has a much longer range, but I'm not sure that's necessary and I don't fully understand why they are so much better.


----------



## holl_ands

You need to enter your location into www.tvfool.com and then copy/paste

the results URL (web address at top of browser) so we can see it.....


Also, what are you using to watch DTV? Make/Model & Approx. Year of Manufacture?


----------



## GrandPixel

well, I have an LG 42LD450 on the way, and I will need a tuner for my projector.


tvfool:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe446c84ea80


----------



## Dave Loudin

Let's step through the data on your TVFool report...


The first chart is meant to give you an idea of where your potential signals are coming from. The longer bars represent stronger signals. At first blush, it would seem that you have stuff coming at you from all directions. Let's see if that holds up.


The table below lists the stations in order of signal strength. The quality figure is the Noise Margin, where 0 equals the signal just strong enough over the noise to be decoded. Stations in the green zone are strong enough to be picked up by an indoor antenna. You have a lot of strong signals at your location! We need to pick out two other pieces of information - The Real channels and the azimuth they come from.


Note that 98% of the stations you would be interested in come from one direction: 290 degrees. There are a couple of independant stations from the opposite direction and one other strong one off to the northeast. I would strongly recommend a small outdoor antenna like the RCA ANT-751 aimed at290. It is a high-VHF/UHF antenna (need the VHF since your Fox affiliate broadcasts on channel 9) and it is modestly directional. It should pick up the strong stations from the back, and maybe from the side. That is, all the digital stations in the table down to WEIQ-DT.


The remaining stations are really pretty weak (don't worry about trying for the tropo paths), so it would not be cost effective to get a larger antenna, or even a rotator.


By the way, there is no such thing as a "large" non-directional antenna. Gain comes from being directional. It's actually really hard to design a non-directional antenna that covers the wide range of frequencies used by TV broadcasts and has near-zero gain (most will be much less than zero over some frequencies). Amplifiers don't count! They only help overcome losses in the cable between antenna and TV.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *GrandPixel* /forum/post/18794103
> 
> 
> snip
> 
> 
> Is there a powerful nondirectional antenna that is good for both VHF and UHF
> 
> 
> snip




In one work, NO!


An omnidirectional antenna receives equally poorly from all directions and cannot be made so that it is "powerful".


"Power" (that is, gain) comes from the focusing of the radio energy by making the receiving antenna more directional.


Additionally, UHF antennas are much smaller than comparable gain VHF antennas making a single omni either inefficient or impractical.


Some antennas are "multi" directional in that that have a more powerful but wider forward reception lobe and, perhaps, one or more secondary reception lobes that may be useful.


----------



## GrandPixel

Thanks for the great input. Browsed Amazon for a bit looking for options and the RCA looks good based on how many people buy it and reviews. Just for reference, *are there comparable products to the RCA ANT-751*? Also, *will it pick up AM/FM stations*? *How would I connect that to my receiver for radio*?


When installing, I know that higher is better. Is there any reason to put it on a 50 ft pole? *How high do I need to install this*? For that matter, *what eqiupment and accessories do I need for installation*?


----------



## Dave Loudin

Alternatives to the 751? I think that's the best you're going to do for the price. You do not want anything with a screen reflector, nor do you want any of the flat-panel antennas.


No antenna designed for VHF/UHF will help with AM reception. There should be a coax jack on the back of your receiver for FM. Use a splitter to feed both the TV and the receiver. That coax jack is not connected to your AM section. If there is provision for an AM external antenna, there will be another place to connect a ground and a long wire. The RCA probably will catch some FM, but it's not designed for that band.


There's a small Winegard antenna, the HD7000R, that might do better with FM, but I have not seen any reports on its real-world utility.


I'll let others comment to mounting techniques, but as to what height you need to install at, the first consideration is trees and other structures around your house. It is worth it to try to get above any nearby trees, as they can really block UHF reception. As far as terrain goes, you can double-check with TVFool. Use the "Start maps" option. when you get to the page with a map of your receive location, note that there is a place to enter antenna height. Each time you enter a new height, the predictions update, so look for the height where the NM figures start to plunge, or where the path is no longer LOS. That would be your minimum height.


Good luck!


----------



## PCTools

Found this, as it might be a cost-save for someone who is in the need.


WINEGARD HD7000R VHF/UHF/FM DTV TV Antenna $35.49 (Delivered)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16882557008 


I wonder if I am better of getting this for FM or the FM6 antenna? I just want to stick this inbetween the ladders on the Rohn tower, as the top is loaded with the Funke and a stack of 91XG's.


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/18785667
> 
> 
> He has a temporary page here : http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html



The graphs need to be redone now that the highest channel is 51.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/18796151
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if I am better of getting this for FM or the FM6 antenna? I just want to stick this inbetween the ladders on the Rohn tower, as the top is loaded with the Funke and a stack of 91XG's.



The FM6 has more gain, but is also more directional than the Winegard. I was very impressed with the performance of the FM6 when I had one.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *klandry7* /forum/post/18796772
> 
> 
> The graphs need to be redone now that the highest channel is 51.



Why? It would be premature to do so since there are still plenty of low power and Class A stations in the US on the air with not forced cutoff in site.


Additionally, Canada still has more than a year and Mexico has almost ten to go before their full-service broadcast spectrum is mandated to shrink.


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/18798261
> 
> 
> Canada still has more than a year and Mexico has almost ten to go before their full-service broadcast spectrum is mandated to shrink.



As an aside that is why we are unlikely to see Channel 14-51 optimized antennas any time soon. I was hopping to get a little more gain with a new antenna but it does not appear antenna vendors are going to produce US optimized designs as long at Canada and Mexico use the old spectrum.


fixed typo - was only talking about UHF.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tschmidt* /forum/post/18798923
> 
> 
> As an aside that is why we are unlikely to see Channel 13-51 optimized antennas any time soon. I was hopping to get a little more gain with a new antenna but it does not appear antenna vendors are going to produce US optimized designs as long at Canada and Mexico use the old spectrum.



Are you saying the 14-69 optimized antennas will not work? (There are many of these.) Other than adding Channel 13, I don't know what they would change.


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/18807232
> 
> 
> Are you saying the 14-69 optimized antennas will not work? (There are many of these.) Other than adding Channel 13, I don't know what they would change.



Pretty simple the more spectrum you're trying to cover then you're sacrifcing gain some where. Trust me an antenna optimized for 14-51 is going to have more gain from 14 to say 40 and especially the low UHF end than an antenna optimized for 14-69.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tschmidt* /forum/post/18798923
> 
> 
> As an aside that is why we are unlikely to see Channel 13-51 optimized antennas any time soon. I was hopping to get a little more gain with a new antenna but it does not appear antenna vendors are going to produce US optimized designs as long at Canada and Mexico use the old spectrum.



13-51? Not going to happen... 14-51 antennas are already available (ClearStream Micron, C1, C1C, C2, and C4) and most have been available for almost two years. These are the only re-scaled UHF antennas on the market that I'm aware of.



> Quote:
> Are you saying the 14-69 optimized antennas will not work?



Of course they will still work. They will work exactly the same as they did before the transition. This point seems to get lost (or ignored) by those who want to see the antennas re-scaled. While a re-scaled antenna offers the potential for either higher gain in a similar package or more gain in a larger package, the vocal advocates for these changes often ignore the economics of such an effort.


I'd predict that more 14-51 antennas (and perhaps 7-51) antennas will come to market in the next year from major manufacturers. We'll see.


----------



## gbynum




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tschmidt* /forum/post/18798923
> 
> 
> As an aside that is why we are unlikely to see Channel 13-51



With 13 at about 210 MHz and 14 at about 470 MHz, the wavelength for 13 is about 2.23 times that for 14 ... IF (big if) I was going to include 13, I'd probably go down to 7 at 174 MHz ... which is what I think I've seen ... UHF and high VHF or UHF only.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gbynum* /forum/post/18810261
> 
> 
> With 13 at about 210 MHz and 14 at about 470 MHz, the wavelength for 13 is about 2.23 times that for 14 ... IF (big if) I was going to include 13, I'd probably go down to 7 at 174 MHz ... which is what I think I've seen ... UHF and high VHF or UHF only.



I agree. I think trimming the UHF only from Channel 69 top to Channel 51 would only add a dB or two to gain.


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/18809371
> 
> 
> 14-51 antennas are already available (ClearStream Micron, C1, C1C, C2, and C4) and most have been available for almost two years. These are the only re-scaled UHF antennas on the market that I'm aware of.



I fixed the typo - meant UHF 14-51.


I'm not familiar with the ones you mentioned? Does not look like either the C4 or C5 has more gain then the CM4228. I'm using a CM4228 (old style) and am thinking of trying a 91XG. A re-tuned 91XG ought to have more gain on high UHF then the Channel Master. I need more more gain at Channel 43 (WGBX).


----------



## ThoraX695




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/18810585
> 
> 
> I agree. I think trimming the UHF only from Channel 69 top to Channel 51 would only add a dB or two to gain.



Still, that would be a game changer for some people receiving a station on the fringes or DX'ers.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tschmidt* /forum/post/18812425
> 
> 
> A re-tuned 91XG ought to have more gain on high UHF then the Channel Master. I need more more gain at Channel 43 (WGBX).



I have tried the original CM 4428, Winegard HD8800 & 91-XG in a fringe area & the 91-XG is by far the best performer. I had tried the HD8800 because of it's better performance on paper for channels 14-30, but the 91-XG provides more stable/dropout free reception on even those channels. We are receiving 18 of the UHF stations on the TV FOOL report. (Not including subchannels)


No VHF stations are even remotely reliable here, even with the Winegard YA-1713.


----------



## PCTools

Is there a easy way to mount this on the leg of a tower, if the top is already full?


I was looking at the post in 11053. I am thinking I might be able to do this.


Is it worth the extra cash to get the 6055 over the FM6? I like the 6010 but I think it will not have enough gain.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/18796920
> 
> 
> The FM6 has more gain, but is also more directional than the Winegard. I was very impressed with the performance of the FM6 when I had one.


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/18812505
> 
> 
> We are receiving 18 of the UHF stations on the TV FOOL report.



Wow that is down to about -20dB NM. I hate to do all the work to swap out antennas but really want to get lower power PBS station.


We use a YA-1713 for VHF. Both NH stations are pretty strong and even get WMTW (-5.3 NM) out of Maine on occasion.


Perhaps it is worth giving the 91-XG a shot.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe55d761f872


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tschmidt* /forum/post/18813167
> 
> 
> Wow that is down to about -20dB NM. I hate to do all the work to swap out antennas but really want to get lower power PBS station.



I'm sure the TV FOOL report is not completely accurate, but neither of the 8 bay antennas would get Wash DC or Richmond reliably enough to watch. Even some of the stronger Charlottesville stations were experiencing occasional dropouts right before the mid-day swap. The Channel Master 7777 pre-amp also helped even with only 50 foot run of coax to 1 TV.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/18813093
> 
> 
> Is there a easy way to mount this on the leg of a tower, if the top is already full?
> 
> 
> I was looking at the post in 11053. I am thinking I might be able to do this.
> 
> 
> Is it worth the extra cash to get the 6055 over the FM6? I like the 6010 but I think it will not have enough gain.



This is the tube I bought from McMaster Carr for the support:


88875K33 1 Each Architectural Aluminum Tube (alloy 6063), Square, 1" X 1", 1/8" Wall, 6' Length


plus these U clamps:


8896T123 2 Each Type 304 Stainless Steel U-bolt, W/plate, 1/4"-20 X 1-3/8"l Thrd, For 2"od, 435#wll


FYI.


(The WG YA1713 is only 3 pounds.)


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/18809371
> 
> 
> 13-51? Not going to happen... 14-51 antennas are already available (ClearStream Micron, C1, C1C, C2, and C4) and most have been available for almost two years. These are the only re-scaled UHF antennas on the market that I'm aware of.



I've been using the ClearStream C5 from Antennas Direct, supposedly a VHF antenna, but it's working very well as an omni-UHF as well. Besides getting good signals on both VHF stations here, I'm getting all of the UHF stations from Sutro Tower and Mt. San Bruno, and, here's the surprise, I'm getting a UHF station 30 miles away to the northwest, two UHF stations from 35 miles away to the southeast, and one that's 45 miles away to the north. It's a weird looking antenna, but it works.


I have the C5 connected to my DVR and use my VHF 10 element and CM 4228 UHF antennas for receiving more distant stations or for just playing around to see what's out there.


Larry

SF


----------



## urban ranger

Hey guys, was wondering if I could get some advice on exterior antenna selection.

tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9fbefdc4833684 


I'm mainly looking to get either Cincinnati channels (5.1, 9.1, 12.1, 14.1, 19.1, 48.1) or Dayton channels (2.1, 7.1, 16.1, 22.1, 26.1, 45.1). Antennaweb.org and tvfool.com both seem to indicate Dayton will come in better but I'm still at a loss for what type of antenna.


TIA, Ed


----------



## GrandPixel

Have an RCA ANT-751 on the way. I want to get some elevation on this. Can someone explain how to install this on a mast? Is it pretty straightforward?


----------



## holl_ands

C-M Antenna Installation Guide:
http://www.channelmasterstore.com/v/...l%20master.pdf 

Some typical installation accessories:
http://www.channelmaster.com/product.php?catID=36 
http://www.winegarddirect.com/cview....ories&c=Mounts


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Have an RCA ANT-751 on the way.



Doesnt a short J mast come with it ? If so, the directions should be in the package.


----------



## GrandPixel

I think so, but like I said, I want to put it on a pole for better reception.


----------



## Dave Loudin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *urban ranger* /forum/post/18816699
> 
> 
> Hey guys, was wondering if I could get some advice on exterior antenna selection.
> 
> tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9fbefdc4833684
> 
> 
> I'm mainly looking to get either Cincinnati channels (5.1, 9.1, 12.1, 14.1, 19.1, 48.1) or Dayton channels (2.1, 7.1, 16.1, 22.1, 26.1, 45.1). Antennaweb.org and tvfool.com both seem to indicate Dayton will come in better but I'm still at a loss for what type of antenna.
> 
> 
> TIA, Ed



You've got a couple of choices. First, looking at the "Real Channel" column on your TVFool report (as those are the channels stations are actually broadcasting on), I see that Dayton is a UHF-only market and that Cincinnatti is a VHF/UHF market. So:


1) you could buy a UHF-only antenna, like the Antennas Direct DB-2, or the Channel Master CM 4220, and aim it at Dayton. OR


2) you could buy a VHF/UHF antenna that has enough gain, but a wide enough beam, to catch BOTH Dayton and Cincinnatti. I'm thinking the AntennaCraft HBU-22 or the RCA ANT751 would have the right combination such that you could point the antenna at about 260 or 270 degrees and get everything.


What makes option 2 possible is the strength of the Dayton signals. You really don't need positive antenna gain to bring them in well. If what I recommend doesn't quite work, those two antennas would still get one market or the other.


Good luck!


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *azneonguy* /forum/post/18822187
> 
> 
> Hey guys new to the forums....
> 
> been reading as much as I can some very interesting stuff on here,
> 
> 
> I was wondering if I could get some advise for an attic mounted antenna that would work best for my location Goodyear Az 85338.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe2f31e1cbed
> 
> 
> Single story house , stucco siding with tile roof, we are in a sort of valley with mountains around us just south west of Phoenix.
> 
> 
> 
> Just looking to get the major local channels nothing that is not in the green or yellow sections i know I need VHF and UHF and hoping to get some advise an the best way to get them...
> 
> 
> Thanks for the help



You have all UHF channels except the PBS channel transmitting on channel 8 which is a "high VHF" channel. Everything is to the east of you so, depending on your house orientation and the size of your attic, you would need a moderate gain high VHF/UHF antenna like the Winegard 7696 or 7697P. These might be more than you need but if a 90 to 100 inch antenna fits in the attic, that is what I would use.


Or you could drop back to the 7694P which is shorter.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *azneonguy* /forum/post/18822259
> 
> 
> thanks a lot for the info.... quick question but aren't Fox (10.1) and NBC (12.1) also considered high VHF channels?
> 
> 
> again thanks for the help



Yes, you are correct...I missed that.


Winegard has all the specs on their antennas on their website. But I would buy from Solid Signal because they are cheaper.


----------



## bnieman

Please recommend a reliable outdoor HDTV antenna.


Here is my TV Fool report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe470c54b438 


Currently I have a Monoprice indoor/outdoor antenna mounted on the South side of my roof. I get a few channels reliably but channels like Fox 6 (6.1) and PBS (10.1) drop out constantly.


I have attached a picture of my roof. I would like to use my current mount on the South side of the house (which faces Milwaukee where all the important stations are coming from)


Thanks guys!


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bnieman* /forum/post/18822373
> 
> 
> Please recommend a reliable outdoor HDTV antenna.
> 
> 
> Here is my TV Fool report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe470c54b438
> 
> 
> Currently I have a Monoprice indoor/outdoor antenna mounted on the South side of my roof. I get a few channels reliably but channels like Fox 6 (6.1) and PBS (10.1) drop out constantly.
> 
> 
> I have attached a picture of my roof. I would like to use my current mount on the South side of the house (which faces Milwaukee where all the important stations are coming from)
> 
> 
> Thanks guys!



Have you tried mounting the antenna you have at right angles from what is shown? I am not familiar with that antenna but it seems from the pictures that it should be mounted with the curved surface facing the TV station antennas.


----------



## bnieman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/18822492
> 
> 
> Have you tried mounting the antenna you have at right angles from what is shown? I am not familiar with that antenna but it seems from the pictures that it should be mounted with the curved surface facing the TV station antennas.



I did try that while holding it on the ground and it didn't make a difference.


Thanks for the suggestion though!


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bnieman* /forum/post/18822539
> 
> 
> I did try that while holding it on the ground and it didn't make a difference.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion though!



You have good line of sight to your stations so you should not need much antenna. The customer reviews on your antenna are amazing! Do the directions say which way to aim it? Almost all antennas are directional.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bnieman* /forum/post/18822373
> 
> 
> Please recommend a reliable outdoor HDTV antenna



I recommend the HBU-22 or ANT-751 for your situation. Either one should provide reliable reception for up to 2 TV's.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

You have the antenna laying almost on its side which can kill reception by up to 20 dB. Get the darned thing vertical with the curved front facing your UHF towers.


Your Fox station is a UHF station and should be received okay if the antenna is properly oriented. If correcting the orientation doesn't fix the problem, move the antenna to a different location and try again.


PBS-10 is a VHF station and you have the wrong type of antenna to reliably receive it.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/18822722
> 
> 
> You have the antenna laying almost on its side which can kill reception by up to 20 dB. Get the darned thing vertical with the curved front facing your UHF towers.
> 
> 
> Your Fox station is a UHF station and should be received okay if the antenna is properly oriented. If correcting the orientation doesn't fix the problem, move the antenna to a different location and try again.
> 
> 
> PBS-10 is a VHF station and you have the wrong type of antenna to reliably receive it.



The specs claim VHF reception with it. And the customer reviews verify that.


----------



## bnieman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/18822722
> 
> 
> You have the antenna laying almost on its side which can kill reception by up to 20 dB. Get the darned thing vertical with the curved front facing your UHF towers.
> 
> 
> Your Fox station is a UHF station and should be received okay if the antenna is properly oriented. If correcting the orientation doesn't fix the problem, move the antenna to a different location and try again.
> 
> 
> PBS-10 is a VHF station and you have the wrong type of antenna to reliably receive it.



Wow, I orientated it upside down vertical and now I get 36 channels including the Chicago FOX channel!


The FOX 6 Milwaukee station I was having the most trouble with now comes in at around 83% signal level. Is 83% reliable? It's dipped as low as 74% when I tuned to the channel and it the picture broke up for a second, it quickly recovered and was fine after that leveling out around 83% signal. I watched the entire evening newscast with no dropouts. I got the signal level from my Panasonic tc-p42g10 television.


Talk about directional. Thanks so much for your input guys, I might not even need a new antenna now


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/18823002
> 
> 
> The specs claim VHF reception with it. And the customer reviews verify that.



Even a paper clip can claim VHF reception (under the right conditions) and a blind squirrel can find an occasional acorn.


The antenna is too small to have any effective reception on VHF. Its VHF performance probably comes in at at least at a negative 10 to 20 dB loss. That would make it ineffective on VHF pretty quickly as distance increases and signal power decreases.


----------



## gbynum




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/18823753
> 
> 
> Even a paper clip can claim VHF reception (under the right conditions) and a blind squirrel can find an occasional acorn.
> 
> 
> The antenna is too small to have any effective reception on VHF. Its VHF performance probably comes in at at least at a negative 10 to 20 dB loss. That would make it ineffective on VHF pretty quickly as distance increases and signal power decreases.



Aw shucks ... opinions override physics all the time ... . It is amazing how good modern tuners are. Weak VHF without much multipath ... yeah. I have a 24 inch wire in my Sony RP set and get reception of all the "green" on TVFool which include VHF 7, 9, 13 and 7 UHF.


My newer but cheaper Vizio won't do as well ...


With photography, the glass is the thing. With RF reception, the antenna's the thing ... usually.


----------



## urban ranger




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dave Loudin* /forum/post/18820086
> 
> 
> You've got a couple of choices. First, looking at the "Real Channel" column on your TVFool report (as those are the channels stations are actually broadcasting on), I see that Dayton is a UHF-only market and that Cincinnatti is a VHF/UHF market. So:
> 
> 
> 1) you could buy a UHF-only antenna, like the Antennas Direct DB-2, or the Channel Master CM 4220, and aim it at Dayton. OR
> 
> 
> 2) you could buy a VHF/UHF antenna that has enough gain, but a wide enough beam, to catch BOTH Dayton and Cincinnatti. I'm thinking the AntennaCraft HBU-22 or the RCA ANT751 would have the right combination such that you could point the antenna at about 260 or 270 degrees and get everything.
> 
> 
> What makes option 2 possible is the strength of the Dayton signals. You really don't need positive antenna gain to bring them in well. If what I recommend doesn't quite work, those two antennas would still get one market or the other.
> 
> 
> Good luck!



Dave, thanks for your advice. Your suggestion of point basically due west (270-deg) would actually work really well with where I'm looking to mount the antenna(s). Our existing DTV dish is on the southwest corner of the house and really can't be seen from the road so I'd like to use that same basic spot (leaving the dish for now - you never know....).


Here are a pic of what I'm talking about, sorry for the cell phone pic.


This is looking due west, into the sun at the time of the photo!


















I thought about using the dish mount somehow or piggy backing off of it but as you can see we have trees around us to the south, west and northwest so I'm thinking I probably need to get up higher if I can.


Any other opinions or thoughts? Is there a antenna mounting pic thread somewhere that I could reference for ideas?


Thanks again everyone!


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/18822242
> 
> 
> You have all UHF channels except the PBS channel transmitting on channel 8 which is a "high VHF" channel. Everything is to the east of you so, depending on your house orientation and the size of your attic, you would need a moderate gain high VHF/UHF antenna like the Winegard 7696 or 7697P. These might be more than you need but if a 90 to 100 inch antenna fits in the attic, that is what I would use.
> 
> 
> Or you could drop back to the 7694P which is shorter.



You missed the importance of this part:



> Quote:
> stucco siding with tile roof,



Both are signal-killers and will likely require an OUTDOORS antenna in order for him to be successful.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *urban ranger* /forum/post/18824559
> 
> 
> Dave, thanks for your advice. Your suggestion of point basically due west (270-deg) would actually work really well with where I'm looking to mount the antenna(s). Our existing DTV dish is on the southwest corner of the house and really can't be seen from the road so I'd like to use that same basic spot (leaving the dish for now - you never know....).
> 
> 
> Here are a pic of what I'm talking about, sorry for the cell phone pic.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought about using the dish mount somehow or piggy backing off of it but as you can see we have trees around us to the south, west and northwest so I'm thinking I probably need to get up higher if I can.
> 
> 
> Any other opinions or thoughts? Is there a antenna mounting pic thread somewhere that I could reference for ideas?
> 
> 
> Thanks again everyone!



Check my post 1153.


----------



## urban ranger

#1153 on page 39 is by "Brett_FL"...?


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *urban ranger* /forum/post/18831631
> 
> 
> #1153 on page 39 is by "Brett_FL"...?



Sorry...typo #11053 two pages back.


----------



## urban ranger

Ah, that makes more sense! Thanks for the reference pic.


And I do believe this is reply 11,111 to this thread!


----------



## whotheheck

My parents were given a Wineguard HD8200U by my brother. Here is their tvfool data.

tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9fbe57d2fe13fe 


Yes, the antenna seems a bit overkill for their situation. Here are my questions.


The antenna will be over 100' away from most of the TVs. There will be 5 TVs so I will probably get a 6-way splitter (I might use the 6th output for FM). With so many TVs and the distance from the antenna being so far from the TVs, would a preamp help? or are the TV stations strong enough to not need one? I know that there is such a thing is overloading. Does that matter anywhere on its way to the TV set or is overloading something that only matters once the signal reaches the tuner? If a pream would help, any recommendations? I saw 2 Wineguards for sale on Amazon, which would go with the antenna I guess, but not sure if they are needed or if they are the best.


My parents favorite station is XHTIT (it's a HD station, although TV Fool doesn't show it). They used to have problems getting it since KSDX (analog) also broadcasts on the same channel. Will this interference likely come back with the Wineguard, since it is much stronger than their current 99 cent antenna? (that's not a joke)


I remember when I was a kid there was a chimney mounted antenna that was smaller than this Wineguard that was able to receive some of the LA TV stations. There was snow of course, and sometimes the signal would be pretty bad, but it would be watchable more than half the time. Most stations were VHF and this was some 25 years ago. Since the local stations are pretty strong, does it make sense to point the antenna at 320 degrees to try to get the LA area stations or are they too weak now?


Thanks in advance for any advice you might offer.


----------



## airgas1998

i have a winegard 7697p, i'm @ about 44 miles or so from the nearest tower and recieve great reception (80-100%) if my antenna is designed to capture ch 7-51. how is it that i'm getting abc ch 5 (low vhf) in? btw my antenna is only 12' up.


----------



## J_ph

Any alternatives to "pitch pad" (those soft rubber sticky pads) that can be found at a Lowes or Home Depot? something less gooey than a tube of roofing tar.


thanks


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *airgas1998* /forum/post/18840203
> 
> 
> How is it that I'm getting ABC ch 5 (low vhf) in?



You're lucky.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *J_ph* /forum/post/18840486
> 
> 
> Any alternatives to "pitch pad" (those soft rubber sticky pads) that can be found at a Lowes or Home Depot? something less gooey than a tube of roofing tar.
> 
> 
> thanks



Use an eave mount or a wall mount below the eaves. The mast would extend above the roof.


----------



## gbynum




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whotheheck* /forum/post/18839410
> 
> 
> The antenna will be over 100' away from most of the TVs. There will be 5 TVs so I will probably get a 6-way splitter (I might use the 6th output for FM). With so many TVs and the distance from the antenna being so far from the TVs, would a preamp help? or are the TV stations strong enough to not need one? I know that there is such a thing is overloading. Does that matter anywhere on its way to the TV set or is overloading something that only matters once the signal reaches the tuner?



The 6 way splitter with inherent losses will cost you about 19% of the total signal. The 100 feet of feed cable will cost something, too. Unless it is difficult to get back to the antenna, I'd try without, but plan on a low noise, low gain, high quality amplifier at the antenna ... gain before the loss in the cable and splitters.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whotheheck* /forum/post/18839410
> 
> 
> My parents favorite station is XHTIT (it's a HD station, although TV Fool doesn't show it). They used to have problems getting it since KSDX (analog) also broadcasts on the same channel. Will this interference likely come back with the Wineguard, since it is much stronger than their current 99 cent antenna? (that's not a joke)



I'm not looking at teh actual antenna curves, so may be all wet here . The improved directionality of that antenna will reject some of the undesired signal; they are about 90 degrees apart, not the best for rejection (usually 45 and 135 are a little better than side and back)


Are you going to rotate the antenna?


----------



## MAX HD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *airgas1998* /forum/post/18840203
> 
> 
> i have a winegard 7697p, i'm @ about 44 miles or so from the nearest tower and recieve great reception (80-100%) if my antenna is designed to capture ch 7-51. how is it that i'm getting abc ch 5 (low vhf) in? btw my antenna is only 12' up.



Some eskip today.WCFT-5 Tuscaloosa,AL off the side of your antenna,acting like an end-fed dipole.


http://www.vhfdx.net/spots/map.php?Lan=E&Frec=50&Map=NA


----------



## ADTech

The 8200 is a very, very large antenna for this location.


Do not use a pre-amp as you will likely overload. There is plenty of signal power available to accommodate a 100' coax (5-6 dB) plus a 6-port splitter (10-12 dB, worst case). If needed, an 8-port distribution amp may be used.


A small multi-directional UHF antenna (2-bay bowtie, for example) with a very broad beam width facing south-east should get you all your UHF stations. A small high-VHF antenna pointed towards La Jolla is needed for channels 8 & 10. I'd suggest some attenuation on the UHF antenna to try to drop KSDX-LP's analog 29 signal into the dirt so that XHTIT is unaffected. It may be necessary to try something else - check in your local San Diego thread for advice from your local members.


XHTIT is the 6th entry in your TVFool table. The 5th character in its call sign messed up the formatting of the table. Consequently, what should have read "-DT" now reads "-T".


----------



## Ennui

hdtv.forsandiego.com has local info. If you wanted LA, you would need a rotator but the signal levels shown on the TVfool data are too low.


You could try putting in more height in the TVfool data; e.g. 40 feet, to see if that changed the data.


----------



## J_ph

>Use an eave mount or a wall mount below the eaves. The mast would extend above the roof.


I mounted the antenna on a "j-mount" on a small pitched rise in the center of my roof. It's a very old house with an unusual roof design and this allowed me to hide the antenna from most views. But I need to re-support it because I only made a temporary install while testing. And I was hoping to seal it up better before I put the ladder away.


thanks, j


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *airgas1998* /forum/post/18840203
> 
> 
> i have a winegard 7697p, i'm @ about 44 miles or so from the nearest tower and recieve great reception (80-100%) if my antenna is designed to capture ch 7-51. how is it that i'm getting abc ch 5 (low vhf) in? btw my antenna is only 12' up.



An antenna may receive out-of-design-band signals if the signals are strong enough to overcome the losses from inefficiency and VSWR mismatch.


Doesn't mean it's a good antenna choice, but it works anyway.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *J_ph* /forum/post/18842471
> 
> 
> >Use an eave mount or a wall mount below the eaves. The mast would extend above the roof.
> 
> 
> I mounted the antenna on a "j-mount" on a small pitched rise in the center of my roof. It's a very old house with an unusual roof design and this allowed me to hide the antenna from most views. But I need to re-support it because I only made a temporary install while testing. And I was hoping to seal it up better before I put the ladder away.
> 
> 
> thanks, j



This mount held some very big antennas (3 element 20 meter and 5 element 10 meter beams) before these TV antennas. No holes in roof and cannot be seen from the front of the house.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *airgas1998* /forum/post/18840203
> 
> 
> i have a winegard 7697p, i'm @ about 44 miles or so from the nearest tower and recieve great reception (80-100%) if my antenna is designed to capture ch 7-51. how is it that i'm getting abc ch 5 (low vhf) in? btw my antenna is only 12' up.



Any chance your setup includes over 12' of twin lead?


----------



## whotheheck

Actually, the LA stations are not terribly important. I was just wondering if I should even try to get them. I tried different heights and it doesn't really change much. The house is already on top of a hill with no obstructions in all directions nearby.


It seems like everyone agrees that the antenna is already overkill so I guess I don't need a preamp.


I am not going to rotate the antenna with a rotator. We will try to rotate it during installation though to see where it can get the best possible reception.


Thanks for the help guys. I think we will try installing it this weekend or the next at the latest. I will let you know how it works out. Thanks for the links too!


----------



## JJkizak

I really don't like twin lead. I really do like Andrew's 1/2" Heliax (2.34 db loss at 1000 mgs) but wonder who can afford it and if there are conversions from 300 ohm to 50 ohm.

JJK


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JJkizak* /forum/post/18849853
> 
> 
> I really don't like twin lead. I really do like Andrew's 1/2" Heliax (2.34 db loss at 1000 mgs) but wonder who can afford it and if there are conversions from 300 ohm to 50 ohm.
> 
> JJK



Try to get some CATV hardline. It's 75 ohms and similar loss to 1/2" Heliax. A standard Balun works OK.


Common sizes of CATV hardline are: .412, 1/2", and 3/4". They are available jacketed and bare. Sometimes you can get the end of a spool for free from the local CATV company.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *raj2001* /forum/post/18768273
> 
> 
> 
> I have a two stack of CM4228A (old style, not 4228HD) which performs much better than one by itself. I use twin lead for phasing and a SD3700 as the combiner. Works very well.



Ryan,


Do you have the two 4228 antennas stacked vertically or horizontally? I'm assuming vertically, due to the size and weight of the 4228. And, what's the separation distance in inches? Thanks.


Steve


----------



## Ennui









Here is a tower we had in the back yard some 40 years ago. Designed by Collins Radio. 80 foot rotating; no guys. I have the drawings if anyone is interested. It was designed for ham and military antennas and is shown with 20, 15 and 10 meter beams mounted. I have no idea on price to build.


----------



## tylerSC

Why did Antennacraft discontinue plans to make a new version of their Gray-Hoverman antenna? Was on their website all last year and now is gone. What happened?


----------



## peggy1

I don't know what happened to Antennacraft's design, but Gray-Hoverman antennas are easy to build at home. I made one, and it is outstanding for UHF, even when it is sitting on the ground.


----------



## nyc2010

just found this GE amplifier. is this any good as a pre amp?




















*Amplifier*


Frequency ...............5-900MHz

Gain ....................5 - 50 MHz. 8dB MIN


5 - 300MHz, 10dB MIN



300 - 900 MHZ, 9dB MIN


.Input Capability

83db u V MIN (7CHANNEL INPUTS)


.Max. Input for -60dB

Third Order Distortion:

90dB u V MIN(TESTED AT CH .3)


Noise Figure:

5 - 400 MHz 6dB Max



400 - 900 MHz 6.5dB Max

*Power Injector*


. Input:

120v AC 60 Hz


Output Voltage:

DC 9


Maximum Output:

100mA


Insertion Loss:

1. dB Max.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nyc2010* /forum/post/18892558
> 
> 
> just found this GE amplifier. is this any good as a pre amp? ...



In technically concise terminology, it is junk, but sometimes, junk is all you need. I used to use those to amplify the return signals a little bit in hotel PPV movie systems. I also successfully used one for an off-air analog reception antenna in a rural area where there were no strong local FM stations and little variation in the strength of the half a dozen UHF stations that were all on the same transmission path.


You'd need to have input signals that are weak but not too weak, and no signals that are too strong, for it to help you.


----------



## nyc2010

i think i have a mix of strong and weak signals. guess it won't work for me.


----------



## relaxguy

Sorry I can't post URLs yet... so please add www. in front of the links.

*tvfool info:*
tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9fbebd57cde05f 

*Antenna link:*
radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3740646 

*Current setup:*

AntennaCraft HBU33 (pointed SW)

Roof mounted (~40 feet high)

HUGE tree directly SW of my house (20 feet away)

No Pre-Amp as of yet

40' of cable to 3-way splitter, another 20-40' to each tv


Should I buy a preamp?

Would I be better off with a different antenna?

(I'm specifically interested in picking up 28.1.)

*Current stations I'm picking it up with good quality:*

2.1

4.1

4.2

7.1

7.2

9

18

20.1

20.2

23.1

38.1

38.2

50.1

54

56.1

56.2

56.3

62.1


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *relaxguy* /forum/post/18894110
> 
> 
> 
> Should I buy a preamp?
> 
> Would I be better off with a different antenna?
> 
> (I'm specifically interested in picking up 28.1.)



Do not buy a preamp.


Get a second UHF only antenna for 28.1 make a second run to any TV that you want to watch PBS, and use an A/B switch at that TV set.


If you want to combine antennas to add channel 28 consider a Jointenna http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Ant...Jointennas.htm or a channel combiner from Tinlee in Toronto. Warren Electronics claims to stock channel 28.


----------



## relaxguy

Tower Guy: Thanks for the response. Would it be reasonable to assume that if I point the HBU33 in the direction of 28.1 I could pick it up? I plan on trying this when I get home from work as I didn't really have a chance to play with the positioning yesterday.


For the UHF antenna would a DB-2 / 4 be enough?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Would it be reasonable to assume that if I point the HBU33 in the direction of 28.1 I could pick it up?



Under general conditions, yes. But 2 edge stations can be tricky at times. Try it and post back.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *relaxguy* /forum/post/18894272
> 
> 
> Would it be reasonable to assume that if I point the HBU33 in the direction of 28.1 I could pick it up?
> 
> 
> For the UHF antenna would a DB-2 / 4 be enough?



Yes, probably. Your system losses are a bit high, but it should work.


DB-2 is too small. I'd opt for the DB4


----------



## LithOTA

Well, here's my first opportunity for a free "all you have to do is take it down" antenna reclaimation. It's my wife's friend's and she wants it off of her house. It must be at least 6 years old (when she bought the house). It doesn't look too old by the way the sun is glinting off of that director.

I should be able to get it down pretty easily; it's a low ranch house with a nice low-slope roof. Even if it's messed up, I could use the parts for one of my diy projects (McLapp, G-H).

Can anyone help with an I.D.?


----------



## Mister B

The above posted antenna looks just like my Winegard HD-7082P which is actualy only about a year and a half old.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mister B* /forum/post/18908732
> 
> 
> The above posted antenna looks just like my Winegard HD-7082P which is actualy only about a year and a half old.



It does look pretty close. I thought it might be a Winegard by the way the VHF elements overlap each other, and the two V-directors.

If it is, I'm grabbing that sucker for sure. Thank You!


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/18908449
> 
> 
> Well, here's my first opportunity for a free "all you have to do is take it down" antenna reclaimation. . . . Can anyone help with an I.D.?



Looks like the Winegard 7080 . Still not a bad antenna. Should have very good VHF Lo/HI & good UHF if anything like the 7082.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/18908881
> 
> 
> Looks like like the Winegard 7080 . Still not a bad antenna. Should have very good VHF Lo/HI & good UHF if anything like the 7082.



Yup, I counted elements and I think that's it. Gain chart looks very good, I like the front-to-back ratio. I bet I could dx WHBF out of the Quad Cities with this rig (on RF 4).

That's a big SOB, though. I would have to disassemble it partially to fit it into the van.


----------



## Digital Rules

Never used the 7080, but have tried the 7082 in a few locations. The VHF-HI seems just as good as the YA-1713, but the UHF is not as good as I had expected. Works reliably to about -55 dbm without a pre-amp & -80dbm with one on UHF.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/18909057
> 
> 
> Never used the 7080, but have tried the 7082 in a few locations. The VHF-HI seems just as good as the YA-1713, but the UHF is not as good as I had expected. Works reliably to about -55 dbm without a pre-amp & -80dbm with one on UHF.



Thanks Mr B and D Rules. There are low-power VHFs in Chicago that I've never seen before with my UHF-only antennas, so I think I'll give this one a try. If UHF performance is low, I might just mount the 4400 above it and plug the 7080 into the VHF input on the CM7777.

Hey, it's free, so there's no harm in trying.


----------



## Falcon_77

Winegard FV-HD30


Looks like Winegard has a new "compact" Hi-Band VHF/UHF antenna. After being disappointed with the HD-1080, I'm not all that inclined to try this one, but thought I'd mention this one anyway:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Antennas&sku= 


The picture showing it mounted near a walkway seems irresponsible, since people could walk into the reflector elements and get injured.


I wouldn't expect much performance out of this one, but hopefully it's a bit better than the HD-1080.


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/18914996
> 
> 
> Winegard FV-HD30
> 
> 
> Looks like Winegard has a new "compact" Hi-Band VHF/UHF antenna. After being disappointed with the HD-1080, I'm not all that inclined to try this one, but thought I'd mention this one anyway:
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Antennas&sku=
> 
> 
> The picture showing it mounted near a walkway seems irresponsible, since people could walk into the reflector elements and get injured.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't expect much performance out of this one, but hopefully it's a bit better than the HD-1080.



The web site shows a 40 mile range for the HD-1080 and 30 mile range for the FV-HD30.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/18914996
> 
> 
> Winegard FV-HD30
> 
> 
> Looks like Winegard has a new "compact" Hi-Band VHF/UHF antenna. After being disappointed with the HD-1080, I'm not all that inclined to try this one, but thought I'd mention this one anyway:
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Antennas&sku=
> 
> 
> The picture showing it mounted near a walkway seems irresponsible, since people could walk into the reflector elements and get injured.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't expect much performance out of this one, but hopefully it's a bit better than the HD-1080.



It's at least a year old, so it might not be considered "new".


..and it's less of a "performer" than is the HD-1080. All depends on the comparison criteria.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The picture showing it mounted near a walkway seems irresponsible, since people could walk into the reflector elements and get injured.



Heh, none of the mounting locations pictured are anywhere near optimal.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/18909057
> 
> 
> Never used the 7080, but have tried the 7082 in a few locations. The VHF-HI seems just as good as the YA-1713, but the UHF is not as good as I had expected. Works reliably to about -55 dbm without a pre-amp & -80dbm with one on UHF.



Yeah, it would be fantastic for VHF, but there's only one station in each of my 4 markets that's on VHF, and two of them are on 12 and 13. The other two are on 8 and 11, but the one on 11 is moving to 49 next spring. So I've decided that it wouldn't be worth it fooling around with that 9-foot wide monster just to dx. A Winegard 769-something would be more practical.

That UHF performance is kinda disappointing- my Clearstream 4, Winegard 4400, and even my diy bow-ties will smoke that (down to -100dbm with preamp). Is this typical for a small UHF corner Yagi that's mounted on the front of a combo antenna? Or is the 7080 just skewed towards VHF?


----------



## relaxguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/18898717
> 
> 
> Yes, probably. Your system losses are a bit high, but it should work.
> 
> 
> DB-2 is too small. I'd opt for the DB4



I pointed the antenna towards 28.1 and I can pick it up. I first sat on my roof with a laptop and a usb tuner and I could pick up 28.1 at ~90% signal.


I then tried the 50' coax coming off the antenna and 28.1, 28.2, 28.3 all worked great (along with the rest of the channels).


But, if I plugged the antenna into the 3-way splitter (7db 7db 3.5db) I could no longer pick up 28.1,28.2,28.3. I replaced the 3-way with a 2-way (3.5db 3.5db) and now the tv picks up 28.1 with ~68% signal, which works well but every once in a while shows some pixelation.


Is there anyway to overcome these signal losses? Bigger antenna? Different Splitter?


3-way splitter im currently using (add www. in front of the link):
3starinc.com/regal_3-way_horizontal_splitter_5-1000_mhz-w-ground.html?category_id=53


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Is there anyway to overcome these signal losses?



Normally, I would say with a preamp, but you have some very strong signals that might cause preamp overload:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbebd57cde05f 


Maybe a preamp with not too much gain that can handle your strong signals, like a Winegard HDP-269.


Another way would be to use a distribution amplifier (at the lower end of the 50ft coax) before the splitter to compensate for the splitter loss; some of them have splitters built in.


----------



## A_Dude

What is the best way to improve reception for a weaker signal that is being broadcast from the same location as a strong signal ?


----------



## Ken H




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A_Dude* /forum/post/18929901
> 
> 
> What is the best way to improve reception for a weaker signal that is being broadcast from the same location as a strong signal ?



I don't know if it's the best way, but one way is to use an antenna that has optimum reception characteristics for the specific station that is weak. Or, use two antennas and combine them into one feed.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> What is the best way to improve reception for a weaker signal that is being broadcast from the same location as a strong signal ?



It depends upon the difference in signal strength between the two signals. If a preamp has enough dynamic range to keep the strong signal from harming the weak signal, then it is suitable.


The spec is call SFDR, spurious free dynamic range. Holl_ands has modified the Solid Signal preamp chart to give the max input signal for various preamps. He has also developed a preamp overload calculator.
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota 


If the difference between the two signals is greater than any preamp can handle, then the only way left is to attenuate the strongest signals before amplification with custom filters, like from TinLee (Canada).


The solution proposed by Ken H was used by Trip in VA to pick up a weak CH11 signal with a VHF bowtie antenna that would, at the same time, attenuate his very strong UHF signals.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/18929874
> 
> 
> Another way would be to use a distribution amplifier (at the lower end of the 50ft coax) before the splitters to compensate for the splitter loss; some of them have splitters built in.



I prefer the Channel Master 34xx series distribution amplifiers in strong signal areas over the HDP-269. I find them more resistant to overload than pre-amps.


We installed a CM 3414 at this location to maintain the weaker yellow zone signals when multiple splits were needed. We actually gained a channel that the 91XG could not bring in without it. The HDP-269 overloaded quite a bit on VHF & was a poor fit.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A_Dude* /forum/post/18929901
> 
> 
> What is the best way to improve reception for a weaker signal that is being broadcast from the same location as a strong signal ?



A higher gain antenna & no amplification is usually your best bet if you are less than 5 miles away. What does your TV FOOL report look like?


----------



## A_Dude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/18930046
> 
> 
> A higher gain antenna & no amplification is usually your best bet if you are less than 5 miles away. What does your TV FOOL report look like?


 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe77a96c1b98 


K16FC - Real Channel 16 - is PBS and is broadcast from the same mountain as Real Channel 15 which is a little over 30db stronger. They are 18 miles away.


Both channels have valuable programming.


Meanwhile, in the opposite direction, distant Real Channel 21 is about 6db stronger than the only ABC in the area, Real Channel 27, broadcasting from the same direction, both of which are 55 miles away.


All realistically possible channels of any value are UHF, and between 15 and 44.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A_Dude* /forum/post/18930798
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe77a96c1b98
> 
> 
> K16FC - Real Channel 16 - is PBS and is broadcast from the same mountain as Real Channel 15 which is a little over 30db stronger. They are 18 miles away.
> 
> 
> Both channels have valuable programming.
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, in the opposite direction, distant Real Channel 21 is about 6db stronger than the only ABC in the area, Real Channel 27, broadcasting from the same direction, both of which are 55 miles away.
> 
> 
> All realistically possible channels of any value are UHF, and between 15 and 44.



Will the antenna be only 8 feet AGL?


----------



## A_Dude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/18934439
> 
> 
> Will the antenna be only 8 feet AGL?



That's just a number I picked out of the air (no pun intended).


The structure is only one story, though.


----------



## catkin

Hi! I'm new to the forum,and am thinking of getting an antenna instead of using cable.I saw this one on the Radio Shack website:


ANTENNACRAFT HDVIEW360® MINI-STATE HDMS9100RV W/RV MOUNT BRACKETS


Is it any good?


I'm in Windsor Ontario,in the suburbs.We get all the Detroit stations.


Thanks!


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *catkin* /forum/post/18949868
> 
> 
> Hi! I'm new to the forum,and am thinking of getting an antenna instead of using cable.
> 
> 
> I'm in Windsor Ontario,in the suburbs.We get all the Detroit stations.



goto

www.tvfool.com 


get a report for your expected signal strength and antenna needed.


----------



## wood tick

This is a quick test to see if my post shows. Been having difficulty. If it does I will be following with the real one directly.


----------



## wood tick

Brother and I recently helped my Dad deal with getting tickled by lightning. He got the "no signal" on both TVs so we deduced his AP-8275 Winegard preamp was tits as this was the problem a year or so back. He has a 2 story country farmhouse with high ceilings, 12/12 pitch roof, and a 10 foot tripod tower. He gets great reception but we are afraid to climb it.


So Brother rented a guy and his boom truck. Replaced the preamp only first and tried the system with no change. Next replaced the power supply and away it went.


Now looking in the rearview we obviously should have tried the power supply first before we rented the truck. Being newbees if just didn't occur to us that both components may not be bad. I'm being told by locals that can happen,....can be one or the other. So now we are left to wonder if the antenna unit is really bad. Of course we would rather not incur the rental cost to reinstall it with the good power supply to see if in fact its fried or not. We would wait for the next strike before doing that again.


Which leads to the question: Is there a way to check/test the preamp loose down on the ground so's to speak? All I have is a plain electrical multimeter and very limited electrical knowledge. I have used that in resistance mode to find shorts/bad connections in vehicles. Inserted a couple fine pieces of stove pipe wire(close to coax wire diameter) in the inlet and outlet, threw the test leads on them and there is indeed resistance across them. Can't get close to a zero reading. Does anyone know if that necessarilly means anything in the case of a preamp? Checking across the threads/ground part there is zero/no resistance.


If we could ascertain that this unit is still good, we would only have to buy the separate power supply to have a complete replacement on hand. But additionally it would tell us next time there is a good chance we may avoid a boom truck. BTW the couple of antenna guys left around here would not climb this tower either. When my Dad was younger he built a temporary wood platform on the ridge of the roof to get it installed. It has been an awesome performer. Lives on a hill and gets the best reception in the area. But it is also a high lightning strike area.


Have picked up some good grounding info on this thread. We have much to do to improve his setup. Dad's main breaker box and its ground rod are inboard in the middle of his old stone basement so we are going to have to go in with the #6 alongside the coax lead across the bottom of the joists to hook up the grounds. I know Greywolf has mentioned this is allowable now per code, but also do you think it is practically and safety wise the right thing to do? The tripod is mounted on a metal roof but is not grounded separately. The roof is grounded in 3 or 4 different areas with heavy braided cables and rods and I'm hoping that would be sufficient.


thanks in advance if anyone can help.


----------



## johnpost




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wood tick* /forum/post/18954281
> 
> 
> Have picked up some good grounding info on this thread. We have much to do to improve his setup. Dad's main breaker box and its ground rod are inboard in the middle of his old stone basement so we are going to have to go in with the #6 alongside the coax lead across the bottom of the joists to hook up the grounds. I know Greywolf has mentioned this is allowable now per code, but also do you think it is practically and safety wise the right thing to do? The tripod is mounted on a metal roof but is not grounded separately. The roof is grounded in 3 or 4 different areas with heavy braided cables and rods and I'm hoping that would be sufficient.



run a wire grounding the tripod to a grounding rod in the ground outside your house, using the shortest distance between the tripod and the ground. connect the antenna grounding rod to the house grounding rod using the 6AWG wire.


----------



## relaxguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/18930028
> 
> 
> I prefer the Channel Master 34xx series distribution amplifiers in strong signal areas over the HDP-269. I find them more resistant to overload than pre-amps.
> 
> 
> We installed a CM 3414 at this location to maintain the weaker yellow zone signals when multiple splits were needed. We actually gained a channel that the 91XG could not bring in without it. The HDP-269 overloaded quite a bit on VHF & was a poor fit.



Just hooked up a CM 3414 and now all three of my tvs can get all the stations I was after! All I did was replace the three way splitter with the Amp and I went from ~70% strength after the split to ~80% strength. Thanks!


----------



## scottmo2020

Hi

I am trying to get KRCG VHF 12 with a Wineguard YA713 VHF only antenna. I have both an AP3700 VHF only amp and a AP8275 amp from Wineguard. The 3700 has 17db gain on VHF and the 8275 has 29db gain on VHF. I am about 60 miles from the station, and I plan to combine the VHF only side of this setup with a UVSJ combiner. I have about 100 feet of coax to my HDTV. I also have a 10,000 watt FM station about 1 mile from me which causes me a lot of problems.


My question is, should I use the higher gain preamp? I am afraid the higher gain might pick up more of that FM station. But, I'm also afraid 17db gain might not be enough for a good signal. TVFool shows -73dBm 1 edge.


thank you!


----------



## Ennui

The 8275 has two FM traps; one fixed and the other variable. See the manual on WG's website. I am not sure if they are good enough to tune out your interference but I would certainly try.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I also have a 10,000 watt FM station about 1 mile from me which causes me a lot of problems.



Still, with digital ? Is it in the same direction as the TV stations youre trying to get ?


I have a 50,000 KW FM station about 1.5 miles from me (and a distant channel 6 ABC, which is needed). Fortunately, its almost in my null zone. No problems since the transistion as far as I can tell.


----------



## scottmo2020




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/18957477
> 
> 
> Still, with digital ? Is it in the same direction as the TV stations youre trying to get ?




Yep, it is a few degrees off of where I am aiming for KRCG unfortunately. My other option is KOLR which is VHF 10, just about the same distance but they run 26kw vs. 15kw for KRCG. My experience with KOLR has been pretty bad thus far, so I thought I would try KRCG. I was using the old style Channelmaster 4228 for VHF 10, which doesn't have much gain for that compared to the Wineguard ya713. I am going to try the smaller amp first which has a slightly lower noise factor and see what happens. If I have trouble, I am going to swing over to KOLR which is almost 180 degrees from KRCG and from the FM station, and hopefully the ya713 can null out the FM. I can't say 100% that the FM is my problem with break ups. VHF and digital has been terrible for me.


----------



## Ennui

Do have a rotator? What are you using for UHF?


I am using the WG YA1713 and the WG 9095P with the 8275 preamp and 70 feet of RG-6. The 9095 has a coupler built into it for the VHF antenna input. All of my stations are one and two edge. Works well. No FM interference though.


----------



## scottmo2020




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/18958054
> 
> 
> Do have a rotator? What are you using for UHF?
> 
> 
> I am using the WG YA1713 and the WG 9095P with the 8275 preamp and 70 feet of RG-6. The 9095 has a coupler built into it for the VHF antenna input. All of my stations are one and two edge. Works well. No FM interference though.



No, no rotor but I'm thinking about getting one. I am almost center between two markets equal distance from both nearly. I can't get KOMU VHF 8 at all with the 1713 antenna and 3700 preamp though. I don't care about that because I am using the CM 4228 for UHF and get NBC UHF 44 with 85% and no drop outs. It is the old style CM 4228 with Wineguard 8275 preamp. Right how with the 1713 and 3700 preamp I am getting KRCG VHF 12 at a solid 80% and so far no break-ups. Time will tell. That was some Sunday project! My VHF antenna is about 160 degrees different from my UHF antenna to pull CBS from another market from the rest of my UHF (just for fun!)


Thanks again all!


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scottmo2020* /forum/post/18957065
> 
> 
> My question is, should I use the higher gain preamp?



Scott,


Did you ever try the 1713 without a preamp? My 1713 picks up a little weaker VHF-12 with 100 feet of cable & no preamp. (with an occasional dropout) I have 3 full power FM stations & a channel 6 TV station about 1/2 mile away, with no obvious affect once a HLSJ is used to filter below RF7.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scottmo2020* /forum/post/18957767
> 
> 
> ... I was using the old style Channelmaster 4228 for VHF 10, which doesn't have much gain for that ... I can't say 100% that the FM is my problem with break ups. VHF and digital has been terrible for me.



I know what you mean about VHF, it was supposed to work better in these hilly Ozarks, but it has been nothing but a hassle for most people in N/NW Arkansas. Around here, UHF reception is often a piece-o-cake, but not so for VHF.


I recently helped someone install a 7698P V/U antenna +7777 preamp for Springfield channels here. They live about 68mi from the transmitters with a huge hill less than 1/2 mi in front of the house and directly in the path of the Fordland transmitters. They installed the 7698P about 8' off the ground and tilted the antenna up toward the horizon of the hill. They get all of the Springfield channels. Except KOLR 10, which comes & goes. It's just too weak to overcome interference, for many to receive it reliably around here. The old analog 10 was rabbit-ear receivable.


On another recent "help," an elderly gentleman I know purchased a 4228HD (new model) & 7777 preamp. I helped him install it about 20' high and he gets all the Springfield channels, including KOLR 10 from 72 miles away, no problem. He is on a ridgetop, which helps, and also used an HLSJ as an additional filter for possible FM interference. Nearby thunderstorms still give him fits with 10, though, and audio totally drops out for seconds at a time. He also gets all of the Fayetteville, AR (dist. 45 mi.) channels, including KAFT 9, off the back side of the 4228HD.


He got his 4228HD at walmart.com . I was unaware they even sold CM products.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scottmo2020* /forum/post/18957767
> 
> 
> I was using the old style Channelmaster 4228 for VHF 10, which doesn't have much gain for that compared to the Wineguard ya713.



VHF channel 10 was the "sweet spot" for VHF coverage of the original 4228. Many of the glowing reports of the 4228 came from areas with a channel 10. The problems arose when the 4228 didn't work as well on other VHF channels.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *relaxguy* /forum/post/18956549
> 
> 
> Just hooked up a CM 3414 and now all three of my tvs can get all the stations I was after! All I did was replace the three way splitter with the Amp and I went from ~70% strength after the split to ~80% strength. Thanks!



Hi,


My CM is a 3418 and it was the final piece in getting my new antenna system working satisfactory. (Seven of eight outlets in use)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post18843740 


Is the link to the most information but posts before and after have interesting information.


It is interesting that MCM now has a distribution amplifier(s) that is even better for installations like mine. I was worried that the CM might be overloaded with the input from my antenna amp, it is not showing warning signs so far.

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/DA-550HHR 


Warning! MCM Catalogs are addicting and keep coming once you place an order with more and more things to buy, many items not available elsewhere and some at close out prices.


SHF


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Yep, it is a few degrees off of where I am aiming for KRCG unfortunately.



Does not sound good. I have a theory based on my observations, but no documentation to support it (maybe some one can help me out here) that any strong transmitter in the path of a desired signal acts like a magnetic curtain to block the desired signal.


----------



## scottmo2020




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/18962117
> 
> 
> Does not sound good. I have a theory based on my observations, but no documentation to support it (maybe some one can help me out here) that any strong transmitter in the path of a desired signal acts like a magnetic curtain to block the desired signal.



Looks like the CM 4228 old style was a little over 5db gain around the channel 10 area, whereas the YA1713 is about 10db gain. That with the slightly less powerful AP3700 preamp (17db) pulls in my VHF-12 pretty well. I was a solid 80 yesterday afternoon and mid-80's to around 90% in the morning and evening. Drop outs have been a little annoying but so far not unwatchable. It is about as much as I can ask from VHF digital. Lots of storms in the area today so I'll see how it goes with that happening.


Scott


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/18962117
> 
> 
> Does not sound good. I have a theory based on my observations, but no documentation to support it (maybe some one can help me out here) that any strong transmitter in the path of a desired signal acts like a magnetic curtain to block the desired signal.



I believe the frequency of the interfering signal must be taken into account. Indeed, if it is a "dirty signal" it can cover a wide frequency band. But the receiver is also part of the equation. The interference must be near the received frequency to block it. Unless the receiver has a "wide" front end.


----------



## scottmo2020

So far so "OK" with my setup. During the storms last night, there were a few break-ups which are unavoidable with VHF digital. But overall it is not doing too bad. Unfortunately KRCG will not spend the money on the ability to do HD overlay, so for hours on end there is a giant map with 3 area business logos taking up a 3rd of the screen, for a flash flood. Honestly, it's pretty half-arsed. (sorry for the OT rant...)


----------



## scottmo2020

Well, so much for that idea. I usually get 80-90% signal from this weak VHF at about 60 miles or so. But the other night it was down in the 50-60% range and would not lock. I was hoping a higher gain antenna and dedicated VHF preamp would help, but it is not enough to overcome VHF propagation ruined by a slight change in weather and atmospheric conditions. I'm going to have to get cable or live with missing CBS at random times. Glad I have a good Internet connection, because I'll be going there too for programming before I pay cable.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scottmo2020* /forum/post/18957767
> 
> 
> I can't say 100% that the FM is my problem with break ups.



What frequency is the FM station on?


----------



## craftech

 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post17647329 


I wanted to follow up on this. My mother is 90 so it took her this long to make a decision. Despite the wonderful suggestions from IDRick, ProjectSHO89, and Systems2000, she ended up having a friend pick up a $10 antenna clearance special at Radio Shack. The antenna is a Radio Shack VU-90XR.

http://support.radioshack.com/produc...tennas&Reuse=N 


She wont let me go back up on the roof so the Antennas Direct DB2 will stay on her roof

http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/DB2_antenna.html 


and the new VU-90XR has to go in the attic.


How would you suggest I connect the main (CRT) TV on the first floor and the little (CRT) TV upstairs to both antennas in conjunction with the CM7777?


Here is an updated TV FOOL Readout for her address:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe7159e623ea 


I gave up trying to get her to understand why she is having all these problems with reception since the digital transition. She is after all 90. All she wants is the same old channels 2-13 like she used to get.


Thank you so much for your patience.


Regards,


John


----------



## scottmo2020




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/18987392
> 
> 
> What frequency is the FM station on?



It is 91.7 FM, about 8/10 of a mile from the house. It is the only station I hear on most of my non-digital, cheaper FM radios in the house.










Scott


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> she ended up having a friend pick up a $10 antenna clearance special at Radio Shack. The antenna is a Radio Shack VU-90XR.



Good deal for $10.


> Quote:
> and the new VU-90XR has to go in the attic.
> 
> 
> How would you suggest I connect the main (CRT) TV on the first floor and the little (CRT) TV upstairs to both antennas in conjunction with the CM7777?



Dont connect up the DB2. Connect the CM7777 to the VU90 in the attic, then use a splitter for a run to each room, and hope that you dont run into an overload situation.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scottmo2020* /forum/post/18991365
> 
> 
> It is 91.7 FM, about 8/10 of a mile from the house.



I am also .8 miles from an FM station. In order to eliminate overload I had to filter out FM from my Channel Master 4228 UHF only antenna prior to an HDP-269 preamp.


91.7 is most likely to interfere with TV channel 8. (KOMU) For 91.7 to interfere with channel 10 there would need to be intermod between 91.7 and 103.7 (KJEL).


Your antenna doesn't have much response on the FM band, but if it did, try a HLSJ to eliminate all FM prior to your preamp.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/18992163
> 
> 
> Connect the CM7777 to the VU90 in the attic, then use a splitter for a run to each room, and hope that you dont run into an overload situation.



Try it without the CM7777 first. For a single split, you probably don't even need an amp or preamp, with signals that strong and a roof of normal wood and shingles construction. Might have to fuss with the antenna aiming a bit because of reflected signals inside the attic.


----------



## scottmo2020




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/18992220
> 
> 
> Your antenna doesn't have much response on the FM band, but if it did, try a HLSJ to eliminate all FM prior to your preamp.



With the HLSJ, would the 4228 go into the HIGH side, and then the LINE side go to the input Antenna side of the preamp? For the low side, just put a cap over it or something? Maybe I have that backwards.


Or, does the 4228 connect to the LINE side, then take the HIGH side as the output of the HLSJ and connect that to the preamp? And just leave the LOW open or terminated with a 50 ohm terminator?


Scott


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scottmo2020* /forum/post/18993317
> 
> 
> With the HLSJ, would the 4228 go into the HIGH side . . . .



I've tried hooking the HLSJ up both ways you described & it doesn't seem to make a difference as far as I can tell. Make sure to terminate the un-used LO output of the HLSJ.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/18994881
> 
> 
> I've tried hooking the HLSJ up both ways you described & it doesn't seem to make a difference as far as I can tell.



That makes sense to me.


----------



## relaxguy

 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbebd57cde05f 


I'm currently pointing this South (slightly west) and picking up 35 digital stations. The problem is ~10 of them only come in at night. Not sure why the night time reception is better but...


I'm wondering *what is a good upgrade from an HBU33 at my location.*


I can pick up everything in Detroit, as well as Toledo and Bowling Green?.

I'm getting the following stations at night:
2.1

3.1

3.2

4.1

4.2

5.1

7.1

7.2

9

11.1

11.2

13.1

13.2

13.3

18.1

18.2

20.1

20.2

21.3

24.1

24.2

24.3

27.1 ~68%

27.2 ~68%

27.3 ~68%

27.4 ~68%

30.1 ~75%

30.2 ~75%

30.3 ~75%

32

38.1

38.2

50.1

51

54

56.1

56.2

56.3

62.1


I seem to lose the following stations during the day:
27.1

27.2

27.3

27.4

30.1

30.2

30.3

11.1

11.2

3.1

3.2

5.1


My setup is an HBU33 about ~40' up. Large tree right in front of the antenna (20 feet away)


50' of RG6 -> CM3414 -> 3 TV's (50' each).


I tried moving the HBU33 to the other side of my home but there are so many huge trees around here it didnt seem to make a difference.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *relaxguy* /forum/post/18996633
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbebd57cde05f
> 
> 
> I'm currently pointing this South (slightly west) and picking up 35 digital stations. The problem is ~10 of them only come in at night. Not sure why the night time reception is better but...
> 
> 
> I'm wondering *what is a good upgrade from an HBU33 at my location.*
> 
> 
> I can pick up everything in Detroit, as well as Toledo and Bowling Green?.
> 
> I'm getting the following stations at night:
> 
> 2.1
> 
> 
> snipped lengthy list of stations..
> 
> 
> My setup is an HBU33 about ~40' up. Large tree right in front of the antenna (20 feet away)
> 
> 
> 50' of RG6 -> CM3414 -> 3 TV's (50' each).
> 
> 
> I tried moving the HBU33 to the other side of my home but there are so many huge trees around here it didnt seem to make a difference.





Sigh. Cut down the tree or erect a tower to look over it if daytime reception of those stations are that important. You need direct line of sight towards the horizon for deepest fringe reception.


All of the listed channels that are lost during the daytime are listed as having potential co-channel interference. Daytime atmospherics are likely bringing in out-of-market signals that are raising the background noise level to the point that the weakened signal behind the tree is unable to maintain sufficient signal-to-noise ration (SNR) for stable reception. Achieving a clear LOS to the desired signals will greatly improve the signal power and quality and will greatly benefit the SNR.


----------



## Dave Loudin




relaxguy said:


> I seem to lose the following stations during the day:
> 27.1
> 
> 27.2
> 
> 27.3
> 
> 27.4
> 
> 30.1
> 
> 30.2
> 
> 30.3
> 
> 11.1
> 
> 11.2
> 
> 3.1
> 
> 3.2
> 
> 5.1
> 
> 
> Looking at the noise margins for these stations (except for 3, which I can't find), these results are not surprising in the least. Our common advice is to get a net +10 (dB) noise margin (NM) for full-time reception, especially for 2-edge paths. The TVFool data for your problem channels is:
> 
> 
> CALLVChanRChanNM (dB)PATHWGTE30293.12-EdgeWTOL11111.92-Edge
> 
> Add in 10 dB for antenna gain (generous) and subtract 3 dB for amplifier noise, and WGTE just meets +10 while WTOL does not. I'm not 100% sure what real channels 3, 5, and 27 are mapped from, so I can't do the same calculation. However, they are bound to be worse. You're going to have to up your game to a $100+ antenna to do any better, but I don't think you're going to bring in any more stations at 100% (well, maybe WGTE and WTOL.)


----------



## arxaw

The HBU-55 or Winegard 7698 should give you more gain.

Maybe use a preamp on the antenna mast, instead of a distro amp.


----------



## Dave Loudin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/18997170
> 
> 
> The HBU-55 or Winegard 7698 should give you more gain.
> 
> Maybe use a preamp on the antenna mast, instead of a distro amp.



Like I said, $100+ antennas that might get you two more channels.


----------



## LithOTA

Does anyone here have a Winegard 9022? I'd like your thoughts on how good the front/back ratio is.


----------



## srj45

Hello,


I am looking for an antenna to supplement my Dish service. I have no knowledge of antennas and after reading over numerous posts here I am still left wondering what to purchase. If anyone could kindly recommend which antenna to get it would be greatly appreciated. I am really only looking to get the "yellow" section of channels but if anything in addition would be welcomed. I plan on roof mounting the antenna. Is there anything out there for ~$50?

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbeff48363271 


Thanks in advance,

Sean


----------



## Dave Loudin

Winegard 7694P should work OK, and is right at your price point.


----------



## srj45

Thanks Dave. I see that the antenna you mentioned is for channels 7 - 69. I would need to receive the lower channels also. Would this work?


----------



## Dave Loudin

Look at the "real channel" column in your TVFool report. That's the actual RF channel that the station broadcasts on. The "virtual channel" is what the station gets mapped to in your receiver. The 7694 will work for all channels that reach your location.


----------



## srj45




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dave Loudin* /forum/post/19011168
> 
> 
> Look at the "real channel" column in your TVFool report. That's the actual RF channel that the station broadcasts on. The "virtual channel" is what the station gets mapped to in your receiver. The 7694 will work for all channels that reach your location.



Oh yeah you're right. I didn't even realize that







. Thanks Dave!


Do you think this would work good?
http://www.amazon.com/Channel-DIGITA...1106234&sr=8-4


----------



## arxaw

srj,

The antenna dave suggested should work well. The odds are lower for the one you linked to.


It would be worth the little extra money and get the winegard. Check solidsignal.com or other antenna dealers for a better price than amazon, on the 7694.


----------



## A_Dude




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/18930046
> 
> 
> A higher gain antenna & no amplification is usually your best bet if you are less than 5 miles away. What does your TV FOOL report look like?


 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe77a96c1b98 


K16FC - Real Channel 16 - is PBS and is broadcast from the same mountain as Real Channel 15 which is a little over 30db stronger. They are 18 miles away.


Both channels have valuable programming.


Meanwhile, in the opposite direction, distant Real Channel 21 is about 6db stronger than the only ABC in the area, Real Channel 27, broadcasting from the same direction, both of which are 55 miles away.


All realistically possible channels of any value are UHF, and between 15 and 44.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A_Dude* /forum/post/19012864
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe77a96c1b98
> 
> 
> K16FC - Real Channel 16 - is PBS and is broadcast from the same mountain as Real Channel 15 which is a little over 30db stronger. They are 18 miles away.
> 
> 
> Both channels have valuable programming.
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, in the opposite direction, distant Real Channel 21 is about 6db stronger than the only ABC in the area, Real Channel 27, broadcasting from the same direction, both of which are 55 miles away.
> 
> 
> All realistically possible channels of any value are UHF, and between 15 and 44.



If I had your TVFool results, I would try a bowtie antenna with the screen removed, either 4 or 8 bay, aimed somewhere NW / SE. There's probably a sweet spot where you can get the stations of interest in not quite opposite directions.


Re chs 15 & 16, you may need a more selective tuner that can handle adjacent channel interference.


----------



## srj45




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19012181
> 
> 
> srj,
> 
> The antenna dave suggested should work well. The odds are lower for the one you linked to.
> 
> 
> It would be worth the little extra money and get the winegard. Check solidsignal.com or other antenna dealers for a better price than amazon, on the 7694.



Sounds good. Thanks guys.


Sean


----------



## imanim

I hope this is the right place to post this question...sorry if it isn't. As I'm new to OTA viewing, I've been reading through these forums trying to educate myself on antennas.


According to TVFool, I live about 52 miles east of the Los Angeles broadcast stations where all of them are conveniently located in one direction and they're pretty much all in the "green". AntennaWeb says I'm in the Green and Yellow zones. With my Radio Shack rabbit ears antenna Model 15-1868 I am able to pick up UHF signals with a meter strength of 67-80 (at night). However high VHF signals don't come in so well, maybe 40-50 if I'm lucky and play with the antenna a bit.


After reading these forums, it seems Winegard, Channel Master and AntennaCraft are often mentioned brands. I was looking at the Winegard HD769x series. Based purely on distance, it would seem I would need the HD7696 with a range of 55 miles. However, I'm wondering do I need such a big antenna considering that the rabbit ears sort of work. Would I be able to get good reception with the much cheaper HD7694, which is slightly under range at 45 miles? If the 7696 is really better because of the distance, is it even better to spend the $14 more to get the 7697? I don't mind spending a little more money for a quality antenna, but don't want to waste money either.


Also I want to run 2 TVs and thus want to split the line. Is a Winegard preamp AP8700 recommended? The cable run is probably 50 feet or so. Is it better to spend the money on a bigger antenna instead of a preamp?


Thanks in advance for any antenna recommendations and advice.


Mike


----------



## Dave Loudin

Post a link to your TVFool analysis and we can tell for sure.


----------



## imanim




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dave Loudin* /forum/post/19032580
> 
> 
> Post a link to your TVFool analysis and we can tell for sure.



Here's the link to the TVFool analysis. Since I'm new, I had to put double-quotes around the URL to allow me to post the link.


" http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9fbe39eeef7d30 "


Thanks,


Mike


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *imanim* /forum/post/19032331
> 
> 
> Would I be able to get good reception with the much cheaper HD7694?
> 
> 
> Is a Winegard preamp AP8700 recommended?
> 
> Mike



Yes and yes. You've made good choices.


You can ignore the published mileage ratings of the antenna when you already know that the signal is strong enough.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Also I want to run 2 TVs and thus want to split the line. Is a Winegard preamp AP8700 recommended? The cable run is probably 50 feet or so. Is it better to spend the money on a bigger antenna instead of a preamp?



Youll lose about 2.5 db with the 50 feet of coax and about 3.5 db with the splitter. Getting an antenna 6 db higher in gain will cost much more than the preamp.


----------



## mr.freon

My antenna has stations 60 miles to the south, 40 miles to the north west, and 25 miles to the north east. I was wondering what the effects would be if I removed the screens from a 4228HD? The goal would be to pick up all UHF stations without turning the rotor. Would removing the screens cause any negative effects on the signal gain? I'm located 6 miles north of zip code 45822.


I have a neighbor with a very old 4 bay antenna without screens and they claim that they never need to adjust their rotor to pick up these stations.


Thanks in advance!


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mr.freon* /forum/post/19046898
> 
> 
> My antenna has stations 60 miles to the south, 40 miles to the north west, and 25 miles to the north east. I was wondering what the effects would be if I removed the screens from a 4228HD? The goal would be to pick up all UHF stations without turning the rotor. Would removing the screens cause any negative effects on the signal gain? I'm located 6 miles north of zip code 45822.
> 
> 
> I have a neighbor with a very old 4 bay antenna without screens and they claim that they never need to adjust their rotor to pick up these stations.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance!



Removing the screen will make the antenna bidirectional and less directional, at the expense of some gain. You _may_ be able to find a sweet spot to aim and get all the stations without turning the antenna. But it's impossible to tell if it will work until you try it.


I have stations over 70 miles NE of me and 45 SW of me. They are about 170° off axis from each other. I have an old model 4228 with the screen removed and get all of the stations from both markets. Quite a few others in our area have done the same thing. It may or may not work for you, but is certainly worth trying.


----------



## mr.freon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19046965
> 
> 
> Removing the screen will make the antenna bidirectional and less directional, at the expense of some gain. You _may_ be able to find a sweet spot to aim and get all the stations without turning the antenna. But it's impossible to tell if it will work until you try it.
> 
> 
> I have stations over 70 miles NE of me and 45 SW of me. They are about 170° off axis from each other. I have an old model 4228 with the screen removed and get all of the stations from both markets. Quite a few others in our area have done the same thing. It may or may not work for you, but is certainly worth trying.



Thanks for the info!

I'm guessing the purpose of the the screen is to reflect the signal back to the active elements and reject the signal coming in from the back side?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mr.freon* /forum/post/19047353
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info!
> 
> I'm guessing the purpose of the the screen is to reflect the signal back to the active elements and reject the signal coming in from the back side?



Exactly. The frontal reflection reinforces the primary signal, almost doubling the forward gain.


----------



## Nesha

Hi all:

I have a single story home with stucco siding and a tile roof. I want to mount the antenna in the attic and split the signal to at least 5 areas. What do I need to do this (antenna, splitters, etc.)?


TV fool link to my location.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbea2e72d0af7 


Thanks all for your help


----------



## arxaw

Nesha,

This antenna, aimed more or less South:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=ANT751 

This distribution amp:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=CM3418 

Cap off any unused coax ports on the amp with these:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=05&p=CP2507-10 


Stucco on wire screen is notorious for blocking TV & radio signals. If you find you can't get reliable attic reception, you *will* have to move the antenna outdoors.


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19048643
> 
> 
> Nesha,
> 
> This antenna, aimed more or less South:
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=ANT751
> 
> This distribution amp:
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=CM3418
> 
> Cap off any unused coax ports on the amp with these:
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=05&p=CP2507-10
> 
> 
> Stucco on wire screen is notorious for blocking TV & radio signals. If you find you can't get reliable attic reception, you *will* have to move the antenna outdoors.



Or a stronger antenna to compensate for being attic mount.

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Antennas&sku=


----------



## Ken H




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *klandry7* /forum/post/19048724
> 
> 
> Or a stronger antenna to compensate for being attic mount.



Typically a better antenna does not help with stucco and tile; they are usually a lost cause for an attic or indoor antenna.


But, you have to try to know one way or the other.


----------



## Ennui

End of peak roof mount is usually easy. See Message 11053.


----------



## Satcom15

A question for the group (not sure if this is the right place to ask):


Is there any tool that can show what the transmitted bit rate is and how its allocated to there various PIDs? I just got a Panny G25, 42 inch and I've not found anything in the menus clearly obvious (if there is even a capability within the TV). Even though it shows all 3 major OTA networks and PBS as 1080i, the PQ varies significantly. I'm only 22 mi direct line of sight from the transmitters with strong signals even on my rabbitt ears.


NBC/CBS are typically the best. PBS is by far the worst because they cram 3 channels into their HD channel (HD, SD, and Create - the HD and SD channels carry the same programming, I'm really curious to see how they allocate bit rates among the PIDs). PBS is also the worst on cable too.


If there is another group or thread that addresses this matter, please let me know. Thanks in advance for any information.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> t shows all 3 major OTA networks and PBS as 1080i, the PQ varies significantly



Yep, and its all related to the stations equipment. 720p and 1080i are supposed to be near equivalent, but here, 720p from FOX is better quality than any of the stations at 1080i.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Satcom15* /forum/post/19052243
> 
> 
> A question for the group (not sure if this is the right place to ask):
> 
> 
> Is there any tool that can show what the transmitted bit rate is and how its allocated to there various PIDs?



TSReader.
http://www.tsreader.com/tsreader/index.html 


Or, enter the call sign letters of the station at:
http://rabbitears.info/market.php?re...station_search 

Click on "Technical Data & Screencaps" and look at the TSReader data.


----------



## Dave Loudin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *klandry7* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Or a stronger antenna to compensate for being attic mount.
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Antennas&sku=



Won't work with the VHF stations (Fox, PBS, and NBC.)


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dave Loudin* /forum/post/19052903
> 
> 
> Won't work with the VHF stations (Fox, PBS, and NBC.)



It can pick up high VHF.

http://www.ChannelMaster.com/HD_tele...tenna_s/43.htm


----------



## Dave Loudin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *klandry7* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> It can pick up high VHF.
> 
> http://www.ChannelMaster.com/HD_tele...tenna_s/43.htm



Not very well, and certainly not with the same sensitivity as UHF. Best to get a Winegard HD7696p that is designed for both bands.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dave Loudin* /forum/post/19052903
> 
> 
> Won't work with the VHF stations (Fox, PBS, and NBC.)



It often works quite well for high VHF. Outdoors. But the stucco may kill the VHF channels.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Satcom15* /forum/post/19052243
> 
> 
> A question for the group (not sure if this is the right place to ask):
> 
> 
> Is there any tool that can show what the transmitted bit rate is and how its allocated to there various PIDs? I just got a Panny G25, 42 inch and I've not found anything in the menus clearly obvious (if there is even a capability within the TV). Even though it shows all 3 major OTA networks and PBS as 1080i, the PQ varies significantly. I'm only 22 mi direct line of sight from the transmitters with strong signals even on my rabbitt ears.
> 
> 
> NBC/CBS are typically the best. PBS is by far the worst because they cram 3 channels into their HD channel (HD, SD, and Create - the HD and SD channels carry the same programming, I'm really curious to see how they allocate bit rates among the PIDs). PBS is also the worst on cable too.
> 
> 
> If there is another group or thread that addresses this matter, please let me know. Thanks in advance for any information.



If the station is using a VARIABLE bit rate assignment (like KTSC, your PBS station),

in the TSReader report, you will see arbitrarily HIGH bit rate numbers (e.g. 15 Mbps)

for each of the sub-channels and a much lower bit rate reported in the on-air

sub-channel chart that follows (based on fairly short term "snap-shot" averages).

The arbitrarily HIGH bit rate is the MAX allowed for a particular sub-channel,

if none of the other sub-channels were active.


When the Stat-Mux is setup for VARIABLE mode, it dynamically allocates bits to the

channel(s) that NEED them most (such as fast moving action scenes & camera pans).

Watching sports, you might get a feel for how this works if you watched the bit rate

allocations bounce around in real time using TSReader with a (compatible) OTA Tuner.....

But since these are short term averages, rather than GOP-to-GOP readouts, you

STILL won't see how well the Stat-Mux is doing it's job.....approx 15 frames per GOP.

FYI: MPEG2 GOP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-2 

STATMUX: http://www.img.lx.it.pt/~fp/cav/Addi...o%20Coding.pdf 



DVRs or PC OTA Recorders have typically been used to measure LONG TERM average

bit rates, based on the resultant file sizes....for what it's worth.....


----------



## LynnP

Hi everyone,


My contract ended and I'd like to dump DirecTV and go with OTA. They original owners built the house with a 50' long coax cable running from my attic (which is covered with asphalt shingles) to my basement, where all the coaxes cables are, then I'll run it to 2 or 3 TVs from there. I've attached my TVfool link and would REALLY appreciate any help you can give me on what set up would be good. I'm by the edge of a hill with a pretty straight shot to all the main the stations broadcasting 40 miles from the NW. Thanks in advance! Lynn


" http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9fbe0aa33f4f90 "


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LynnP* /forum/post/19056468
> 
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance! Lynn
> 
> 
> " http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9fbe0aa33f4f90 "



Lucky you! Everything UHF and LOS (unless you also want WCBU).


A simple medium range UHF Yagi or 4-bay bowtie antenna should suffice very well. Perhaps a 4-Port Distribution amp as well, if needed, but I'd go without one initially.


----------



## 300ohm

You look like youre in pretty good shape. You just need a good uhf only antenna (unless you want to try for channel 11, which means youll have to mount the antenna outside) like a

CM4221 (or a SBGH if you want to build one yourself), and a quality low noise preamp with a three way splitter.


If the coax is old and the old RG59 stuff, I would replace it with new RG6.


----------



## LynnP

Thanks to both of you. It doesn't sound like I need the top of the line antenna, which is what I usually would go for. I'm not sure about my coax type, but the house was new in 2000 and the guy that built it was a Novell guy who wired the house himself. Hopefully it's the better quality. Lynn


----------



## arxaw

LynnP, this 4bay should work fine for you, assuming you do not have foil-backed reflective barrier on the underside of your roof decking ( it would be visible in the attic).


----------



## LynnP

Thanks to ADTech, 300ohm, and arxaw!!


Thank goodness there isn't any reflective barrier in my attic. I've had a chance to read up on the CM4221 and just ordered it! Thanks for the Cruchfield link too, I couldn't find it any cheaper on Amazon, Ebay, Newegg, or anywhere. I REALLY appreciate the help. THANKS!!Lynn


----------



## whotheheck




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whotheheck* /forum/post/18839410
> 
> 
> My parents were given a Wineguard HD8200U by my brother. Here is their tvfool data.
> 
> tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9fbe57d2fe13fe
> 
> 
> Yes, the antenna seems a bit overkill for their situation. Here are my questions.
> 
> 
> The antenna will be over 100' away from most of the TVs. There will be 5 TVs so I will probably get a 6-way splitter (I might use the 6th output for FM). With so many TVs and the distance from the antenna being so far from the TVs, would a preamp help? or are the TV stations strong enough to not need one? I know that there is such a thing is overloading. Does that matter anywhere on its way to the TV set or is overloading something that only matters once the signal reaches the tuner? If a preamp would help, any recommendations? I saw 2 Wineguards for sale on Amazon, which would go with the antenna I guess, but not sure if they are needed or if they are the best.
> 
> 
> My parents favorite station is XHTIT (it's a HD station, although TV Fool doesn't show it). They used to have problems getting it since KSDX (analog) also broadcasts on the same channel. Will this interference likely come back with the Wineguard, since it is much stronger than their current 99 cent antenna? (that's not a joke)
> 
> 
> I remember when I was a kid there was a chimney mounted antenna that was smaller than this Wineguard that was able to receive some of the LA TV stations. There was snow of course, and sometimes the signal would be pretty bad, but it would be watchable more than half the time. Most stations were VHF and this was some 25 years ago. Since the local stations are pretty strong, does it make sense to point the antenna at 320 degrees to try to get the LA area stations or are they too weak now?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for any advice you might offer.



I posted that a couple of months ago and forgot to let you guys know how it went.


We used no preamps and one 4-way splitter. First thing we did is we pointed the antenna straight at Mt Wilson to see what we would get. Reliably, we got all the way down to KCOP, which amazed me. We did not get all of the stations going down to KCOP (I know we did not get KCAL at all) but we got a lot of them reliably, some came and went, and some we never received. We could not receive some of the stations facing the opposite direction which was disappointing to my parents so we ended up turning the antenna facing the station at 153 degrees. All of the LA stations are gone. They get every station down to K61GH-LP, although they also get quite a few stations not on the list. We believe they are stations from pretty down south in Mexico.


Antenna is huge but parents are happy so that's all that matters. Thanks to everyone that provided advice before.


----------



## zbrett

I live about 20 miles due west of Chicago, and currently have a Channel Master CM-4221HD that feeds into a Winegard AP-2870 pre-amp (along with a dedicated VHF antenna), into about a 50 foot run of RG6 coax. It then feeds into a CM CM-3418 distribution amp (+ 4db per port) I've also tried it with a straight 8-way splitter (-11db per port). It is all up in my attic (+25 ft up). Putting the antennas outside really isn't an option. The roof is normal asphalt shingles.


Here is my problem. I get 100% signal strength, signal quality, and symbol quality on almost all of the local OTA stations. However, on a few of the UHF stations (50 and 32), despite 100% signal strength and symbol quality, the signal quality bounces all over the place, which leads to drop outs. I've tried moving and re-aiming the antennas, but the issue persists. I suspect my problem is some very tall trees blowing in the wind just to the east of me. So, I'm wondering, if I swap the CM-4221HD out for something like a CM-4228HD, would it help to stabilize the signal quality?


Thanks.


----------



## lemmalone

My initial inclination would be to go with a more directional antenna, such as the Antennas Direct 91xg, or with some other UHF yagi antenna. One thing to consider, however, is whether the UHF stations all come from the same direction, because if they don't the more directional antenna may work out worse. I had what I think was a similar problem--big signal fluctuations on windy days with trees nearby, which I put down either to signal attenuation or to multipath--and in my case the 91xg made for a big improvement over several bowtie antennas that I had built. But all my stations come from the same direction. I was also thinking that the 91xg might be overkill at 20 miles, but since it will be inside your attic I think it might be the answer. Interested to hear what others have to say.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *zbrett* /forum/post/19081283
> 
> 
> I suspect my problem is some very tall trees blowing in the wind just to the east of me.



32 and 50 are two of the strongest stations on a TVfool report for west of Chicago.


If your conclusion about trees is correct, why are the weaker stations OK?


I suspect amplifier overload.


----------



## lemmalone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/19081884
> 
> 
> I suspect amplifier overload.



Listen to Tower Guy before you listen to me. He has provided alot of very good advice (much of which I have read) for quite some time, and if all you have to do is remove an amp, his solution is free. I am far enough from transmitters that signal overload never enters my mind--my time is spent trying to collect signal. Good luck.


----------



## zbrett




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/19081884
> 
> 
> 32 and 50 are two of the strongest stations on a TVfool report for west of Chicago.
> 
> 
> If your conclusion about trees is correct, why are the weaker stations OK?
> 
> 
> I suspect amplifier overload.



I thought that might be the case too, but I've tried it with just the pre-amp into an 8 way splitter (rather than the 8-way amp) with the same result.


----------



## Dave Loudin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *zbrett* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> I thought that might be the case too, but I've tried it with just the pre-amp into an 8 way splitter (rather than the 8-way amp) with the same result.



Try without the preamp as it may be the device being overloaded.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I suspect my problem is some very tall trees blowing in the wind just to the east of me.



So youre 100% sure the condition exists only on windy days ?


----------



## zbrett




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dave Loudin* /forum/post/19082656
> 
> 
> Try without the preamp as it may be the device being overloaded.



OK, I tried it with and without the pre-amp, with and without the distribution amp, and also without any amps at all, and the problem persists.


Upon closer examination, I do get some signal quality bounce on other channels, but it is the most pronounced on 32 (WFLD), and it seems to be the most noticeable on windy days.


I did point the antenna up, and that seemed to help a little.


Maybe a different UHF antenna?


BTW, I slipped and managed to put my foot through the ceiling, which the wife is none too happy about. It will take about a 2' x 2' patch to fix. I guess I was due after 35 years of messing around in various attics.


----------



## Digital Rules

Sounds like attic induced signal bounce. A yagi antenna may help, but no guarantees. Is putting the antenna outside a WAF issue or is the roof unaccessible?


----------



## lemmalone

If you do want to try a yagi, you might look into the Radio Shack U75r. Good antenna for less money than the 91xg, and you may be able to return it if it doesn't work.


----------



## zbrett




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/19084860
> 
> 
> Sounds like attic induced signal bounce. A yagi antenna may help, but no guarantees. Is putting the antenna outside a WAF issue or is the roof unaccessible?



The roof would be a real challenge... so a combination of both...


----------



## lemmalone

If you do want to try a yagi, you might look into the Radio Shack U75r. Good antenna for less money than the 91xg, and you may be able to return it if it doesn't work. (Sorry for the double post. I don't know why it happened.)


----------



## zbrett




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/19084860
> 
> 
> Sounds like attic induced signal bounce. A yagi antenna may help, but no guarantees. Is putting the antenna outside a WAF issue or is the roof unaccessible?



One other thing.... The channels pulled in by the separate VHF antenna (Antennacraft CS600) exhibit no signal bounce.


I've also tried moving both antennas in different spots in the attic, but saw no change.


I might give the Radio Shack U-75R UHF a try as suggested....


----------



## zbrett

Well, a big FAIL on trying to get a Radio Shack U-75R UHF locally, I have two stores in my area, one two blocks away, the other 6 miles away. The store within walking distance didn't have the antenna in stock, but the other store had one in stock. Picked it up, got it home, and quickly realized it was used. Elements were damaged and the instructions were missing. Was going to try and make it work anyway, but then noticed it was missing parts as well (the antenna mount, brace, etc). Took it back to the local RS store that is 2 blocks away, and the new guy who was there alone didn't know what to do and said I had to return it to the store I bought it from. So, drove to the other store, who apologized profusely, refunded my money, and said the other store should have accepted the return. Whatever. I'm done with RS at the moment.


So I ordered an Antennas Direct 42XG, which should be here in the next day or so. Hope if it is used at least all the parts are there and the elements are twisted into pretzels...


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *zbrett* /forum/post/19084787
> 
> 
> OK, I tried it with and without the pre-amp, with and without the distribution amp, and also without any amps at all, and the problem persists.



You should be getting a signal on at least one TV with no amplifiers connected. I'd consider multiple problems.


If you aimed your antenna with the amplifiers connected, it's possible that your antenna is mis-aimed. This is because mis-aiming the antenna causes the signal level to decrease which reduces the overload and improves the indicated signal level (but not the actual signal level). Once the antenna is mis-aimed then multipath can cause a bouncing signal.


This remains speculative as we have yet to see your actual TVfool report.


To avoid stepping through the ceiling get a sheet or three of plywood and cut it to whatever size will fit through your attic door. I ripped my 3/4" plywood to 2' X 8' and nailed them to the trusses. (or joists)


----------



## audiodane

Hello.. antenna newbie here. I don't even know what words to search for, so please excuse my ignorance..


When looking at antenna diagrams, they all seem to have 0dB at the outer point, and -40dB at the center of the circle... I understand how to read the directionality on the plot, but I was also under the impression that the more direction, the longer the range---


How does an antenna radiation pattern diagram indicate "range" of a signal? These two radiation patterns of course are different. Directionality differences is obvious. But assuming the signal I want is at 0deg, how the heck do I decide which is the better antenna???



















thanks,

..dane


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audiodane* /forum/post/19088972
> 
> 
> How does an antenna radiation pattern diagram indicate "range" of a signal? T



An antenna with a more focused shape has more gain. The pictures that you posted show that an 8 bay has more gain (and hence more range) than the double bowtie.


Note that the pictures are for horizontal patterns only. Each antenna also has a vertical pattern. For instance, a 4 bay bowtie and a double bowtie will have virtually identical horizontal patterns but the vertical pattern of the four bay will be better than the double bowtie.


In order to relate gain to range, theoretically 6 db gain will double the distance of an antenna. Yet it's better to ignore all published mileage ratings of antennas and rely on TVfool to obtain a noise margin (NM) at your house and then select an antenna with sufficient gain for a system NM of 13 db or more when using a preamp or 25 db or more without an amplifier. You should not use a preamp if the NM of your strongest station is more than 60 db.


----------



## zbrett




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/19088784
> 
> 
> You should be getting a signal on at least one TV with no amplifiers connected. I'd consider multiple problems.
> 
> 
> If you aimed your antenna with the amplifiers connected, it's possible that your antenna is mis-aimed. This is because mis-aiming the antenna causes the signal level to decrease which reduces the overload and improves the indicated signal level (but not the actual signal level). Once the antenna is mis-aimed then multipath can cause a bouncing signal.
> 
> 
> This remains speculative as we have yet to see your actual TVfool report.
> 
> 
> To avoid stepping through the ceiling get a sheet or three of plywood and cut it to whatever size will fit through your attic door. I ripped my 3/4" plywood to 2' X 8' and nailed them to the trusses. (or joists)




Here is my TVFool report:











I get a signal with or without the amps. However, without at least one amp, the signal is weak on a few channels. Considering that all of the UHF stations are within 4 degrees of each other, I probably shouldn't be using an omni in the attic? We'll see what that Yagi does once it gets here.


I did aim the antennas using the data from antennaweb.org (which is the same data as TVFool) without the amps first. I pointed the UHF omni to 86 degree east to split the difference between 88 degree and 84 degrees, and then tried very slight variations from there. Also tried repositioning the antenna. Keep in mind that I see the signal quality bounce with and without the amps connected. I can see how signal overload with amplification might be an issue with WFLD, but I don't think there is enough gain with just the antenna and splitter to cause signal overload? Still learning here...


Meanwhile, the VHF antenna works great. Close to 100% signal strength, signal quality and symbol quality on channels 7 and 2.


I have a plywood platform up in the attic. Unfortunately my foot slipped off the edge while reaching up and not paying attention to where my feet were...


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *zbrett* /forum/post/19089186
> 
> 
> However, without at least one amp, the signal is weak on a few channels.



Assume for a moment that there is no building in the way, only the trees that you mentioned.


Your weakest UHF station WYCC has a NM of 53.4 db. Without a preamp you can suffer significant loss and still get a signal. How much loss?


Attic -20 db (some report as worst case, I don't really know)

8 way splitter -10 db (about right)

feedline losses -10 db (worst case)


This leaves a usable, but marginal, signal with a noise figure of the TV set of 13.4 db. Yet, if trees are attenuating the signal and the remaining losses are real, it is possible to loose the weakest full power station.


When you tried it without the preamp did you actually remove the preamp at the antenna, or did you simply try to unplug it from the wall?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> How does an antenna radiation pattern diagram indicate "range" of a signal?



It doesnt, it only indicates the radiation pattern beamwidth. In other words, how much you can mispoint it without totally messing up. The beamwidth is generally defined as the angle where the gain drops down 3 db, ie half the signal.

Range is better determined by the antennas gain chart.



> Quote:
> An antenna with a more focused shape has more gain.



While typically true, there are exceptions. For example, a 10 dbi uhf lpda will have a narrower beamwidth pattern than a 13 dbi 4 bay bowtie.


Also, if you take an antenna with a mesh reflector, say with 2" X 4" mesh, and use the mesh in the 4" up position instead of the 2" up position, youll get less gain and a narrower beamwidth.


----------



## zbrett




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/19089499
> 
> 
> Assume for a moment that there is no building in the way, only the trees that you mentioned.
> 
> 
> Your weakest UHF station WYCC has a NM of 53.4 db. Without a preamp you can suffer significant loss and still get a signal. How much loss?
> 
> 
> Attic -20 db (some report as worst case, I don't really know)
> 
> 8 way splitter -10 db (about right)
> 
> feedline losses -10 db (worst case)
> 
> 
> This leaves a usable, but marginal, signal with a noise figure of the TV set of 13.4 db. Yet, if trees are attenuating the signal and the remaining losses are real, it is possible to loose the weakest full power station.
> 
> 
> When you tried it without the preamp did you actually remove the preamp at the antenna, or did you simply try to unplug it from the wall?



I removed the pre-amp and used a CM 0549 joiner that I had sitting around. Loss from that is suppose to be -.5.


----------



## zbrett

Put the Antennas Direct 42XG Yagi up yesterday I STILL have the bouncing signal quality on WFLD, and to a lesser extent on a few other channels. Disconnected both the pre-amp and distribution amp, ran a single line to a single tuner, still still signal quality bounce on WFLD. Tried moving the antenna all over the attic with the same result. I guess I'll have to live with it unless I decided to go outside.


On the positive side, I found the increased gain form the 42XG allowed me to replace the 8-way distribution amp with an 8-way splitter while keeping the preamp in place. I'm seeing 80-100% signal strength and 85-100% signal quality on all the Chicago local channels.


BTW. The 42XG is a nice piece. Solid construction and very nicely put together.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audiodane* /forum/post/19088972
> 
> 
> Hello.. antenna newbie here. I don't even know what words to search for, so please excuse my ignorance..
> 
> 
> When looking at antenna diagrams, they all seem to have 0dB at the outer point, and -40dB at the center of the circle... I understand how to read the directionality on the plot, but I was also under the impression that the more direction, the longer the range---
> 
> 
> How does an antenna radiation pattern diagram indicate "range" of a signal? These two radiation patterns of course are different. Directionality differences is obvious. But assuming the signal I want is at 0deg, how the heck do I decide which is the better antenna???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanks,
> 
> ..dane



Antenna Patterns are generally presented in TWO different formats: RELATIVE & ABSOLUTE.


HDTVPrimer Antenna Pattern charts are RELATIVE Gain plots, where the

MAXIMUM Gain is arbitrarily assigned a 0 dB level. The Gain contours are

RELATIVE to the MAXIMUM Gain direction.

Unfortunately, these charts DO NOT tell you what the MAXIMUM Gain level is....

This must be found in the frequency response chart....


Antenna Pattern charts generated by the 4nec2 simulation program are nearly

always posted as ABSOLUTE Gain charts. What you see in the chart is the

actual Gain.....this is 4nec2's default "No Normalization" option.


4nec2 also allows the user to select either "Normalize Overall" and "Normalize Each".

In the first case, the "0 dB" level is MAXIMUM Gain generated across ALL frequencies

and in the second case, the "0 dB" level is MAXIMUM Gain generated for just

the displayed frequency. HDTVPrimer is using "Normalize Overall", so plotted Gain

is relative to the MAXIMUM Gain on the BEST frequency.


In either case, 4nec2 will display the MAXIMUM Gain value so the user knows

what the "0 dB" reference point is at all times....unlike HDTVPrimer's charts....


----------



## audiodane

Thank you holl_ands! That explanation was fantastic...


----------



## franklyfred

Live In Capitola Ca 95010. I am able to get all the locals with radio shack indoor antenna UFO model but have to move it around to get all channels. Would like to go outdoor to get rid of all cables and antenna indoor. Monterey-Salinas area towers located. Computer rookie cant figure out how to post TVFOOL Map into this post. Any info and help appreciated. Thanks in advance


----------



## 300ohm

You dont want channel 3 or 6 do you ?


Your channel 8 and 13 are so strong, you could probably get them with a paper clip. You may be able to get by nicely with a 4 bay bowtie uhf antenna or an Antennacraft G1483
http://www.summitsource.com/product_...oducts_id=8517 

or for even a smaller footprint (but more money), an Antennas Direct C2.


----------



## klandry7

His channel 8 NBC Is VHF, so a UHF only antenna won't work.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbea3727e89fe


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *franklyfred* /forum/post/19109505
> 
> 
> Live In Capitola Ca 95010. I am able to get all the locals with radio shack indoor antenna UFO model but have to move it around to get all channels. Would like to go outdoor to get rid of all cables and antenna indoor. Monterey-Salinas area towers located. Computer rookie cant figure out how to post TVFOOL Map into this post. Any info and help appreciated. Thanks in advance



Based on the zip code-only results, your abc affiliate shows very weak. For more accurate help, we need the TVFool results based on your exact address.


Go back to http://www.tvfool.com and enter your address and estimated height of where you plan to install your outdoor antenna. On the results page, look for an internet address similar to the one below (underlined in red below). Copy & paste it back in this thread to share your results. Your address will *not* display on the results page.


----------



## lemmalone




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *zbrett* /forum/post/19104134
> 
> 
> I guess I'll have to live with it unless I decided to go outside.



Sorry that it didn't work out better. Would it be easy to experiment with a temporary outdoor location, even if you don't want to do it now? It might give you an idea of whether the hassle of a permanent mount would even be worth it. As I noted before, your situation and mine appear to be quite different, but in my case, being able to move it around to different locations outside made for all the difference.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19110198
> 
> 
> Based on the zip code-only results, your abc affiliate shows very weak. ...




There are too many mountains in the way to receive ABC (KGO PSID7, Physical 7) in Capitola, Ca from San Francisco.


The ABC OTA Salinas /Monterey market was abandoned a number of years ago. The station was paid to stop carrying ABC, then was bought by NBC and the transmitter moved to San Francisco (KNTV PSID 11, Physical 12).


Cable, Dish, AT&T are the only options for ABC!


SHF


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1* /forum/post/19111045
> 
> 
> There are too many mountains in the way to receive ABC (KGO PSID7, Physical 7) in Capitola, Ca from San Francisco.
> 
> 
> The ABC OTA Salinas /Monterey market was abandoned a number of years ago. The station was paid to stop carrying ABC, then was bought by NBC and the transmitter moved to San Francisco (KNTV PSID 11, Physical 12).
> 
> 
> Cable, Dish, AT&T are the only options for ABC!
> 
> 
> SHF



Wow! No kidding. I grew up in Cupertino in the 60s and I remember we got this additional attenna for Ch 11 KNTV. It was wired in betweewn your TV and main antenna with twinlead. There was a blue box and you connected twin lead on one side to the TV and the other side went to the main antenna pointed towards San Francisco (San Bruno Mountain had the TV transmitters then). There was also a diagram on how to point it at Loma Prieta (it was to the left of Mt Umunhum where Alamaden AFS surveillance radar was blasting out power). At the time, their signal wasn't that strong. Also, they didn't have a very big antenna either. Didn't someone install a big antenna on the peak a while back? Wasn't it KNTV?


Ahhh the joys of growing up in SF Bay area in the 60s


----------



## franklyfred

ok thanks. Get ABC hd from Directv. DTV probaly not going to add HD locals for a while. Looking for something thats not too big. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe36aad00329


----------



## franklyfred

Also anybody who knows OF THE ONLY IN SANTA CRUZ phenomenon might enjoy this taken from another post .... About Santa Cruz....


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I hope you don't mind the private email but I've talked with Mr. J. directly about the Santa Cruz situation and he's given me the reason for the problem with Santa Cruz getting the World of More so far. This is directly from him and I hope this gives you a good idea of the problem.


------------------------------------------


The situation in Santa Cruz is in a word, complex. And requires some background details to set the stage.


Most of us know that Santa Cruz is hemmed in by the Pacific Ocean and the mountain range that separates it from the Santa Clara Valley. Prior to the establishment of the cable television industry less than a handful of over-the-air television signals could be received, and those were located in Monterey. The picture quality suffered and permits to build new antennas to help boost signals, combined with no access roads and electrical power supplies to serve these over-the-air antennas on top of the mountains made the idea of even getting 7 channels to the area a pipe dream.


In the 1970's when the cable television industry was first established in Santa Cruz a group of folks were concerned that the cable television technology, (with its ability to offer 30 channels!)could establish a monopoly and elected to use the federal courts to provide them safeguards. The end resulta law was put in place that to this day is still in force and adds an extra layer of regulations, rules and procedures that any cable company who does business in the area must comply with. Despite the leaps in technology that over the years have brought satellite dishes, 3G/4G wireless signals and the internet into the mix the rules set up in the 1970's are still applicable.


Given the unique geographic circumstances outlined above the United States Government put in place a federal consent decree on top of the franchise agreements, state laws and federal laws that govern cable television. In my 15 years as a telecommunications professional I know of no other city/region in the country that has a federal consent decree like Santa Cruz's and I've literally spoken to the best federal telecommunications attorneys across the country who have come across similar results. The old saying only in Santa Cruz must have started with this law.


The bottom line, the consent decree is still in place, we are unable to make any changes to our analog channel lineups (which remain under these regulations) without going to federal court and amending the decree and/or revising the franchise agreements with the City & County of Santa Cruz. I've aware of only once such amendment to the consent decree since my tenure here, but we are currently in discussions with a large group of folks/attorneys to try and hammer out a change in the local franchise that may result in us getting the opportunity to boost the Santa Cruz lineup.


So we didn't skip Santa Cruz. We are deeply involved in negotiations to make it happen. Simply put, in Santa Cruz we face a singularly unique situation that is a remnant of the 1970's and forces us to take a different, and longer route, to get to our destination.


----------------------------------------------


I hope this helps explain the situation for you. The reason I did this by private email was I believe you are the only Santa Cruz person in this forum but if you think it might be advantageous to post this in the open forum, in case there are other Santa Cruz people, then I will do that but I thought that you deserved to know first since you posted your concerns to the forum.


Anyway, I'm sorry about your situation in Santa Cruz but maybe you can get others in your area to get the franchise people to have this law amended to help expedite the upgrades to your area. It's what I did about 5 years ago when I was told Milpitas would never be upgraded pass the 550 MHz system that we had, we are now a 1GHz system.


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *franklyfred* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> ok thanks. Get ABC hd from Directv. DTV probaly not going to add HD locals for a while. Looking for something thats not too big. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe36aad00329



The CM4228HD is not that big and will pick up both the UHF and VHF stations.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *franklyfred* /forum/post/19112541
> 
> 
> Also anybody who knows OF THE ONLY IN SANTA CRUZ phenomenon might enjoy this taken from another post .... About Santa Cruz....
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> ...



Hi,


Wow! No kidding.


Not only have the TV transmitters on the ridge top moved away, there is this.


Looking at the path to Fremont peak it looks like a go.


Here in the land of multipath I concur that the Channel Master CM4228HD is the only way to get reliable OTA. When I was forced to put one up all the multipath problems disappeared except for one station.


The effort to put up or pay to have put up is the same for any antenna.


The CM4228HD will have the best chance of not having any problems.


SHF


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *franklyfred* /forum/post/19112489
> 
> 
> ok thanks. Get ABC hd from Directv. DTV probaly not going to add HD locals for a while. Looking for something thats not too big. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe36aad00329


 http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out...B5C/ref=sr_1_1 


If you already have D*, enter your address here to see if you can get ABC from them.


----------



## zbrett




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lemmalone* /forum/post/19110410
> 
> 
> Sorry that it didn't work out better. Would it be easy to experiment with a temporary outdoor location, even if you don't want to do it now? It might give you an idea of whether the hassle of a permanent mount would even be worth it. As I noted before, your situation and mine appear to be quite different, but in my case, being able to move it around to different locations outside made for all the difference.



I'm going to wait until Fall and see what happens when the leaves fall off the trees to see if that has any effect on the signal(s). Just curious and I can live with the way it is now. Then, maybe outside.... Thanks


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> see what happens when the leaves fall off the trees to see if that has any effect on the signal(s).



Yes, its a pretty significant impact, and if youve aimed between the trunks, youll see a nice increase in the signal.


----------



## pvotlucka

I would like to build a DYI high VHF antenna for indoors that would copy the back end of a HD7697P or simpler design.
*If someone could provide design with measurements for length and spacing that would be fantastic.*

There are plenty of bow tie UHF DYI designs online but no VHF. This design would help a lot of people who need a little more VHF antenna gain over the rabbit ears niche. The design would benefit those who have strong UHF signals and weak VHF in addition, that might not have roof access or can afford - for example, a C5 from Antennas Direct. Thanks in advance!


----------



## Rick313




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pvotlucka* /forum/post/19128064
> 
> 
> I would like to build a DYI high VHF antenna for indoors that would copy the back end of a HD7697P or simpler design.



Check out the following thread. Holl_ands provides a lot of great information on the subject.

How to build an indoor VHF antenna


----------



## PCTools

For the do-it-yourself guy, I am inquiring on purchasing the tools to install compression fittings on RG6 Quad Shield.


So far, this is what I decided on:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2 

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2 

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2 


If I go with the Digicon connectors, do you really need a special compression tool? I think those connectors are superior.


Ideas?


----------



## Ennui

I paid $35 for the Winegard 1713. And it weighs only 3 pounds.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pvotlucka* /forum/post/19128064
> 
> 
> I would like to build a DYI high VHF antenna for indoors that would copy the back end of a HD7697P or simpler design.
> *If someone could provide design with measurements for length and spacing that would be fantastic.*
> 
> There are plenty of bow tie UHF DYI designs online but no VHF. This design would help a lot of people who need a little more VHF antenna gain over the rabbit ears niche. The design would benefit those who have strong UHF signals and weak VHF in addition, that might not have roof access or can afford - for example, a C5 from Antennas Direct. Thanks in advance!



I've analyzed quite a few Hi-VHF (and UHF) antennas, with drawings & dimensions

contained in the accompanying (human readable) 4nec2 computer simulation file.

"Moderate to High" Gain Hi-VHF antennas include Loop+Reflector (like C5), Yagi's,

2-Bays, and LPAs (Log Periodic Array) [4-Bay would be HUGE!!!!]:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands 


I doubt that you can simply use "just the back end" of the W-G HD7697P:
http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload/HD7697P.pdf 

The longer elements in the front, as well as the UHF Corner Reflector Elements

are an integral part of the overall Hi-VHF design. Even the UHF elements can

significantly affect the antenna, esp. the SWR. I'm always shocked when I

"tweak" a design and the Gain inexplicably blows out the BACK!!!!!


The back, Hi-VHF portion appears to be an LPDA (Log Periodic Dipole Array)

with a twin-boom feedline (top & bottom) construction (vice zig-zag):
http://glendash.com/Dash_of_EMC/Log_...g_Periodic.htm 
http://www.arcticpeak.com/antennapages/LPDA.htm 

[Note: Thanks to computer design, STUB at rear of antenna is rarely seen anymore.]


Design for aa6g's 10-12 Element Hi-VHF (75-ohm, twin-boom feed) LPDA is here:
http://www.aa6g.org/Lp/lp.html 


Design for ZS6BTE's 14-element (75-ohm, zig-zag feed, 100-inch boom) LPDA is here:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/zigzaglpa/lpda 


And here are my designs for an equivalent, 300-ohm, Zig-Zag LPA for the attic:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/zigzaglpa/zigzagnoboom 

[Which would work a LOT better if Ch12 wasn't a couple miles away.....]


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> If I go with the Digicon connectors, do you really need a special compression tool? I think those connectors are superior.



Yeah, I like those connectors much better than crimp on ones. You do need something to compress them. The $19 ones are kind of flimsy, and the $49 ones are pricey. So I built my own. Works fine for as little as I use it.











Only took about 45 minutes to make it from stuff I had lying around. It works quite well.


You do need a correct size tap to make one. That brass bolt is a common toilet bolt with a short piece of copper tubing on the end. That allows it to compress the inside without damaging the center coax wire. The tricky part is drilling and cutting and filing the end where the coax goes in. It has to be large enough to let the coax fit, but narrow enough so the compression fitting doesnt go thru and has a place to rest against the bar for compressing it.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/19128140
> 
> 
> If I go with the Digicon connectors, do you really need a special compression tool? I think those connectors are superior.



I have use the MCM 22-3250 'F'' Connector Compression Tool for many years and it works OK. From time to time MCM will put these on sale for $24.95, info here . IMO, this tool is not as good as the Thomas & Betts but it does not cost nearly as much.


----------



## maximus57

Oops, posted in the wrong thread. Was supposed to be in the UHF antenna build thread, my bad.


----------



## penner42

I posted this over in the local reception thread, and it was suggested I come check over here. Here's my situation:


I live in Goleta (93117), and want to cancel my cable. I'm wondering if it's possible to pick up channels from LA. Mainly, what I want that I can't get from somewhere closer is Fox in HD. TV Fool shows those channels in red and says I'd likely need a roof mounted antenna... they're 104 miles from me, I assume on Mount Wilson.


If it's going to be possible, I'm willing to put up something very large (HD8200U or CM3671), but I don't want to go through all that to find out it can't be done.


Anyone have any experience or comments with it?


I'd link to my TV fool results, but I can't post links yet... bit DOT ly SLASH bdCvRI


----------



## rabbit73

Welcome to the forum *penner42*.


The tvfool report for Goleta looks like this:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a362d2e4656495 


If you go to tvfool.com and enter your exact address (which will not show in the report) and give us the last part of the URL after com/ in bold type near the top of the report, we can post it for you. Like this:

?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3da362b1ab8c777c


What are the callsigns and real channel numbers of the stations that you want?


One of the problems that you have is that the two very strong stations at the top might cause overload if you use an amplifier to pick up the weak stations.


----------



## arxaw

@rabbit73,

Penner posted a (munged) shorter link to it, which forwards to:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a362a358deae8d 


@penner42,

The two antennas you mentioned have the really long elements for lowband VHF channels that are no longer being used in your area. A fringe antenna more suitable for your channels of interest would be the Winegard HD7698P .


----------



## rabbit73

arxaw:


Wow, you're good! Even after you told me, I can't figure out how you did that!


The best that I could do was Goleta.


I agree, he doesn't need VHF-low.


----------



## penner42

Thanks for the input. So should I try this and see if it'll work? Is there a reasonable chance I'll get something?


The stations I'm interested in are KTTV (11), KABC (7) [though I can probably get ABC from KEYT (27), KTLA (31), KCAL (9), KNBC (36), and if possible KCBS (43).


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/19139010
> 
> 
> ...I can't figure out how you did that!



If you go back and look at his post, you'll see the short-URL he was trying to post was:


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penner42* /forum/post/19139029
> 
> 
> ...The stations I'm interested in are KTTV (11), KABC (7) [though I can probably get ABC from KEYT (27), KTLA (31), KCAL (9), KNBC (36), and if possible KCBS (43).


_*Possibly*_ KTTV & KABC, assuming your TVFool is correct for your address (use the tvfool mapping tool to be sure).


A highband VHF-only antenna & low noise preamp may be a better choice to try and get those two distant VHF stations. Your local UHFs are so strong, they would likely still be received by the VHF antenna.


----------



## ChocoLab

I don't know if this is the proper thread for this, but maybe someone can move it if there's a better place for it...


Has anyone made the VHF-Hi bowtie antennas that holl_ands has modeled on his site?

http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay 


I'm thinking of making either the 4-bay or the 2-bay with reflector. Right now I'm leaning to the 2-bay with reflector because it shows very good gain on FM as well as VHF-Hi. Actually, I might even like to make a 4-bay with reflector, but that's not modeled.


Has anyone tried these? I've googled quite a bit, and all I've found is a post or two of one-bays with no reflector.


Thanks!


----------



## holl_ands

Only DIY Hi-VHF Bowties I've found someone build is a 1-Bay Bowtie by Falcon_77,

which was copied by Trip_In_VA:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=13789319 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=13986962 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=15526421 


Note that Falcon_77 used 30-inch whisker length (or slightly shorter for TRIP_IN_VA).

Choice of whisker length is discussed here (33-inch is better for Lo-VHF & FM Bands):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/hivhf2bay 


BTW: Six vice Four whiskers per Bowtie has better SWR & Net Gain:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/dipoles/hivhfbowtie 

There is no need to adjust the Four Whisker Bowtie when adding the extra Whiskers,

and they can be either the same length, or slightly shorter so that they have the same

WIDTH as the other Whiskers, which might be useful if mounted in a square PVC frame.


Unfortunately, I've only conducted comparative analysis for 1-Bay Hi-VHF version....

....time is finite....but the number of variations is apparently unlimited.....


But if you are SERIOUS about building a Hi-VHF 4-Bay, I'll punch the numbers into one

of my "universal" 4-Bay models, but I would predict it will be nearly 3 dB more than the

modeled 2-Bay with Reflector...or about 13-16 dBi....close to mclapp's M4 in UHF Band.


What kind of reflector were you considering???? The simplest is probably just a set of

reflector wires, rather than an expensive screen.

Does the reflector have to be built in sections AROUND attic trusses????

Do you have any FIRM height/width/depth constraints????


----------



## ChocoLab

Thanks, holl_ands! I'd seen two of those three threads, but not the one from Trip.


And yes, I already had your 2-bay and 2-bay with reflector pages printed out on my desk and ready to go.










I am serious, especially considering it would be so useful on FM as well. I should probably start with the 2-bay version as this will be my first build... And that four bay _is_ awfully large. I could always upgrade it later. (But 13-16 db of gain... Wow.)


I was going to make it out of PVC, as I have a bunch of one inch PVC conduit plus several tees and 90* angles. As far as the reflector, you're right, a screen that large would get expensive for a homemade project. I guess some kind of rod reflector would be a better idea.


One thing... I was really hoping to DX channels 8 and 9. Any rough guessimates on how much I would scale it larger to tilt toward the lower end of VHF-hi? And do you think that would affect the FM gain much?


I hate for you to go to the trouble to run the sim yourself, though. I really need to learn 4nec2 myself... I downloaded it yesterday, but haven't started searching for any tutorials yet.


Oh, and just to answer your other questions, I don't have any real size constraints, and I would use it outside. I just experiment at our office in an industrial part of town, so it's okay if it's ugly (within some reason







).


Thanks again for the reply!


----------



## holl_ands

Gain peak falls on Ch13 (213 MHz) for the 33-inch 2-Bay (with or w/o Reflector).

To move the Gain peak to Ch9 (189 MHz), rescale everything BIGGER by the

factor 213/189=1.127, which results in 37-in Whiskers & 1.7-inch Feedline Separation.


The high frequency roll-off is faster than the low frequency slope, which could

adversely affect Ch13 and maybe Ch12, if that is even a concern.....

And a 4-Bay Bowtie has an even faster high frequency roll-off....as I'll soon show....


Ideally, to exactly match the 4nec2 charts, the wire diameter would also be scaled

upwards by the same amount, but since 2-Bay has excellent SWR and Frequency Response,

the choice of wire size isn't going to make much difference....AWG10 is good enough....


----------



## holl_ands

After you download and install into c:\\4nec2 [yes, directory name & location is important],

follow 4nec2 installation instructions:
http://home.ict.nl/~arivoors/ 

There are some README files in 4nec2 subdirectory you need to start with....


One of them should be how to increase the number of segments, which you might need

to do, to run some big models (e.g. screen grids) with (too) many segments. Download

the (optional) Nec2D or Nec2dXS files found in the "NEC Support Files". Then go to

SETTINGS/NEC_ENGINE to select the appropriate executable and set MIN_Nr_SEGMENTS.

[On VISTA64 TripleProcessor and XP Laptop, I'm using Nec2dXS with up to 5,000 wire segments.]


Under the HELP menu, you'll find several cheat sheets and NEC documentation.

But first, in the SETTINGS/FOLDER menu, setup NOTEPAD & WORDPAD locations.

As you run some models, they may prompt you to increase the size of one of the

variable parameters in SETTINGS/MEMORY_USAGE, which is easy to do....


The first four entries under SETTINGS selects which format EDIT/INPUT brings up,

whether NOTEPAD (4nec2 file in txt format), GEOMETRY or either of two "NEC" Editors.

Be advised that the last three Editors will replace the variable SYmbols in the 4nec2 file

with fixed numbers....destroying other formatting as well.....so if you' re using SYmbols,

ONLY use these to VIEW & then CANCEL to exit. Although GEOMETRY Editor might

be simple to use for simple antennas, eventually you'll want to use variable SYmbols

to tweak the design....and are required before you can use the Optimizer/Sweeper.


Charts can be SAVED, but it's hidden as "SAVE AS" under the PRINT menu....

They are saved to the c:\\4nec2\\plot folder by default....or change it if you want....

Under PLOT, you can SAVE individual text files after clicking thru extraneous prompts.

These can then be imported into EXCEL for Charts, using the DATA/FROM_TEXT menu.


Additional info can be found here, incl. Cebik's Beginner's Guides:
http://www.wuala.com/300ohm/Documents 


Once you get it going, try one of the simpler examples and when you're ready

to start tweaking, read the following and go to the links re how to set up a run:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show....php?p=1066603 

There is a wealth of information contained in these (and associated) threads....


Unfortunately, I haven't seen a good Guide for the actual 4NEC2 program.

So you'll just have to poke around each menu item to see what it does....


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19139405
> 
> 
> If you go back and look at his post, you'll see the short-URL he was trying to post was:



Thanks; got it to work. That's a new one on me.

And then, I couldn't figure HOW it works until I went to the URL root.


----------



## Satcom15

A question for holl_ands perhaps (or anyone who'd like to throw out some ideas)? I borrowed a spectrum analyzer from work the other day to nose around the local OTA channels in Colorado Springs CO and compare them with values obtained from TV Fool. I'm not quite sure what they are showing when they report the power (in dBm). Is that the Video Carrier Frequency power? Below are numbers from TV Fool and my measurements at the Video Carrier Frequency for comparison.


I am a little over 15 miles from Chyenne Mtn with a clear line of site (not even any trees in the way). Here are some numbers that I very simplistically measured (in dBM for the Video Carrier Frequency).


Shown are the callsign, real channel, frequency (MHz), TVfool Signal strength (dBm) and my measurements (dbM). In general reasonable agreement I'd say. KKTV is problematic though. They had problems with their transmitter after a lightning strike and it looks like it hasn't been completely fixed. Since they are supposedly moving to UHF before too long, it seems they are not putting much effort into fixing the problem.


KRDO 24 531.25 -32.6 -34.6

KTSC 8 181.25 -32.8 -36.6

KKTV 10 193.25 -35.6 -50.9

KOAA 42 639.25 -37.9 -45.6

KXRM 22 519.25 -38.4 -40.7

KXTU 57 729.25 -64.1 -70.0


Oh yeah, I used a simple loop antenna and rabbit ears connected directly to the spectrum analyzer. I also added in 3 dB of gain (over an isotropic signal) for the antenna.


Thanks in advance for any thoughts or suggestions on how to make the measurements more meaningful.

Cheers.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Satcom15* /forum/post/19149426
> 
> 
> A question for holl_ands perhaps (or anyone who'd like to throw out some ideas)? I borrowed a spectrum analyzer from work the other day to nose around the local OTA channels in Colorado Springs CO and compare them with values obtained from TV Fool. I'm not quite sure what they are showing when they report the power (in dBm). Is that the Video Carrier Frequency power? Below are numbers from TV Fool and my measurements at the Video Carrier Frequency for comparison.
> 
> 
> I am a little over 15 miles from Chyenne Mtn with a clear line of site (not even any trees in the way). Here are some numbers that I very simplistically measured (in dBM for the Video Carrier Frequency).
> 
> 
> Shown are the callsign, real channel, frequency (MHz), TVfool Signal strength (dBm) and my measurements (dbM). In general reasonable agreement I'd say. KKTV is problematic though. They had problems with their transmitter after a lightning strike and it looks like it hasn't been completely fixed. Since they are supposedly moving to UHF before too long, it seems they are not putting much effort into fixing the problem.
> 
> 
> KRDO 24 531.25 -32.6 -34.6
> 
> KTSC 8 181.25 -32.8 -36.6
> 
> KKTV 10 193.25 -35.6 -50.9
> 
> KOAA 42 639.25 -37.9 -45.6
> 
> KXRM 22 519.25 -38.4 -40.7
> 
> KXTU 57 729.25 -64.1 -70.0
> 
> 
> Oh yeah, I used a simple loop antenna and rabbit ears connected directly to the spectrum analyzer. I also added in 3 dB of gain (over an isotropic signal) for the antenna.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for any thoughts or suggestions on how to make the measurements more meaningful.
> 
> Cheers.



Since you don't know the "real" gain of your antenna (it's likely -3 to -6 dB), your readings correlate fairly well with the TVFool forecast with the exception of KKTV as you noted. It looks like they're either transmitting at lower power or from an auxilliary system.


If your test antenna was a perfect 0 dB (unity gain) antenna (it isn't) and there were no anomolies in your signal path, your SA reading would be expected to read very close to the TVFool forecast.


For DTV signals, there is no separate video or audio carrier. Both the measured and calculated power levels are the absolute power of the signal expressed as a ratio compared to 1 mW into 75 ohms (0 dBm).


----------



## holl_ands

*New CM4228HD 8-Bay Bowtie* analysis using 4nec2 can now be found here:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl 
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay 

As usual, the UHF and Hi-VHF version 4nec2 files are also posted....


Measurements taken directly by this author from a recently delivered antenna.

Choice of AutoSegmentation value (typ. 7 or 11) was very critical to finding a "workable" solution

and was different for UHF & Hi-VHF.


UHF Gain is about 14 dBi on most channels, dropping to 10.5 dBi on Ch14. Excellent SWR under 2.0.

Hi-VHF Gain is very uneven with Excessive SWR on most channels, but remains pointed FORWARD,

which is much better than the old CM4228 which had higher Gain in REVERSE on some channels:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/mult...efl/cm4228refl 


Charts are included comparing CM4228HD (As Shipped) to older CM4228, as well as comparisons

to mclapp's M4 Super-Sized 4-Bay and CM4228/CM4228HD with & w/o RF Combiner Mod.


New CM4228HD (As Shipped) was much better than old CM4228 on the (problematic) lowest channels,

but had 1-2 dB lower Gain above Ch30.

New CM4228HD was actually somewhat worst than mclapp M4 Super-4-Bay, esp. on lowest channels:
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...UHF%20Gain.jpg 


=======================================================

Sweeping the TIPS of the Bowties directly forward by (optimum) 1-inch provided only up to 1 dB of Gain

improvement on some lower channels, at the expense of up to 2 dB of reduction in F_B and F_R Ratios on

those same channels. So might not be worth it.


Sweeping Bowties forwards by 1-in resulted in negligible reduction in beamwidth.

Sweeping Bowties backwards up to 2.5-in resulted in minor (about 10-deg) increase in

beamwidth....hardly worth the effort....


Modifying the vertical Tine Separation between the TIPS of the Bowties by (optimum) of 2-inch separation

resulted in only up to 1 dB Gain increase on some mid and high channels and up to 3 dB on lowest channels.
*On-Air Tests are needed to verify the improvement on the problematic low channels.*

http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...UHF%20Gain.jpg 
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...0and%20F_R.jpg 
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...UHF%20Gain.jpg 
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...0and%20F_R.jpg 


======================================================
*RF Combiner Mod* for New CM4228HD was compared to "As Shipped" to illustrate how much is lost in the

horizontal interconnect.

If a low loss RF Combiner Module is used (very rare), more than 2 dB of improvement MIGHT be possible....

An RF Combiner Module will have AT LEAST 0.5 dB (and probably more) loss, not included in below charts:
http://www.antennahacks.com/CombinerComparison.htm 


"As Shipped" vs RF Combiner Mod (ignoring loss in RF Combiner Module):
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...UHF%20Gain.jpg 
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...0and%20F_R.jpg


----------



## ChocoLab




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/19142795
> 
> 
> Gain peak falls on Ch13 (213 MHz) for the 33-inch 2-Bay (with or w/o Reflector).
> 
> To move the Gain peak to Ch9 (189 MHz), rescale everything BIGGER by the
> 
> factor 213/189=1.127, which results in 37-in Whiskers & 1.7-inch Feedline Separation.
> 
> 
> The high frequency roll-off is faster than the low frequency slope, which could
> 
> adversely affect Ch13 and maybe Ch12, if that is even a concern.....
> 
> And a 4-Bay Bowtie has an even faster high frequency roll-off....as I'll soon show....
> 
> 
> Ideally, to exactly match the 4nec2 charts, the wire diameter would also be scaled
> 
> upwards by the same amount, but since 2-Bay has excellent SWR and Frequency Response,
> 
> the choice of wire size isn't going to make much difference....AWG10 is good enough....



Holl_ands, thank you very much for the info! Much appreciated.


The more I think about it, the more I think I might just go with the 4-bay with no reflector. I was thinking of possibly replacing my rooftop FM antenna with this one, but a six-foot wide reflector might be pushing the limits of what I should be permanently putting up.


If I did do the reflector, I'd need to scale up the reflector-to-element spacing as well, wouldn't I? Or no?


I do have access to AWG 8 copper wire at a small regional-chain hardware store in my town, and it's even reasonably priced... Their prices for AWG 10 are quite a bit cheaper than Home Depot's. But if it doesn't make that much difference, I'll go with the 10.


Thanks again for that and the 4nec2 info. We're looking at a few days of rain from Hermine, so I can hunker down in the shop. This stuff is so much fun.


----------



## franklyfred

late back with thanks to all. Got the CM4228HD. Seems as those I might not be allowed to have antennas here at the compound. Thinking about spray painting it grey or maybe lite blue to reduce shine. Pretty hard for neighbors to see it at back of house. Stupid question will painting it reduce reception? Do I need to paint it Air Force camo or some other color? Thanks comrades


----------



## pvotlucka




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ChocoLab* /forum/post/19156314
> 
> 
> Holl_ands, thank you very much for the info! Much appreciated.
> 
> 
> The more I think about it, the more I think I might just go with the 4-bay with no reflector. I was thinking of possibly replacing my rooftop FM antenna with this one, but a six-foot wide reflector might be pushing the limits of what I should be permanently putting up.
> 
> 
> If I did do the reflector, I'd need to scale up the reflector-to-element spacing as well, wouldn't I? Or no?
> 
> 
> I do have access to AWG 8 copper wire at a small regional-chain hardware store in my town, and it's even reasonably priced... Their prices for AWG 10 are quite a bit cheaper than Home Depot's. But if it doesn't make that much difference, I'll go with the 10.
> 
> 
> Thanks again for that and the 4nec2 info. We're looking at a few days of rain from Hermine, so I can hunker down in the shop. This stuff is so much fun.



Do report back after testing. I am curious on outcome. Good luck Choco!


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *franklyfred* /forum/post/19158964
> 
> 
> ...Seems as those I might not be allowed to have antennas here at the compound.



HOAs cannot restrict OTA TV antenna installation.
* http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html *



> Quote:
> ...will painting it reduce reception?



I've never noticed any difference.



> Quote:
> Do I need to paint it Air Force camo or some other color?..



Paint it a flat color to blend in with whatever is behind it; trees, sky, another building, etc. I've used Krylon Fusion Ultra Flat Camo olive color spray paint to make several antennas blend in with trees behind them. In this pic , there's a 4221 at the top of the mast that's attached to the chimney . Below the 4221 is a VHF antenna. Both are barely visible.


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19159088
> 
> 
> HOAs cannot restrict OTA TV antenna installation.
> * http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html *



That is a correct statement. We rewrote our covenants years ago to comply with FCC rules. I live in Colo - They just love covenants here and they are usually not homeowner friendly. If anyone wants examples of what we did, get in touch. Now if the FCC would just prohibit HOA's from banning ham radio antennas ... Nothing better than looking up and seeing that aluminum forest.










Cheers.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Quote:
> 
> ...will painting it reduce reception?
> 
> I've never noticed any difference.



Yep, the difference in gain will be small as long as you have a light coat. I would avoid painting around the connection points. Tape them off.

Like arxaw said, Krylon Fusion Ultra Flat Camo color spray paint is pretty good stuff.


----------



## arxaw

Here's a .pdf from Winegard that mentions painting OTA antennas.
* http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload/2452195.pdf *


----------



## 300ohm

The Krylon Fusion Ultra Flat Camo color spray paint works well without a primer, if applied as a single light coat.

Using multiple heavy coats will guarantee chipping and flaking even with a primer.

The idea is to apply just enough to take the sheen off and impart a tint.


----------



## jedovaty

Hi, I've just acquired my first television, and am trying to plan out the ideal cabling and wiring situation. Since all equipment is new, I'm using HDMI to connect TV, blu ray player, and AV Receiver (which then plugs into speakers) - basically all cables feed into the receiver. I may add a computer into the mix or a DVR later. I currently chose not have local cable/satellite service because the providers do not have a program mix of interest to me and are too expensive.



What is the best way to fit an OTA antenna into this?



Based on my research, I see the following options:

1. Antenna into TV via coax input, and just use TV to play sound and video

2. Antenna into TV via coax input, then analog wires from TV OUT to AV receiver IN for sound

3. Antenna into AV receiver (assuming it has has ATSC tuner capabilities) via some kind of cable, and it'll somehow magically handle the audio to speakers and the video to TV... ??


Are there any options missing? What other ways would an antenna plug into a TV? I'm trying to maximize video and audio quality










Thank you for your time.


----------



## arxaw

Usually, connecting the antenna to the TV's coax input and using the TV's built in tuner is best. It's also happens to be the simplest.


For audio to a separate sound system, use the TV's digital audio out. If it doesn't have one, use analog (RCA) cables from TV audio OUT to AV receiver IN.


What kind of antenna you need depends on where you live. Enter your address at: http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=29 

For help with antenna selection, post a link to your TVFool results page back in this thread. Your address does not display on the results page.


----------



## jedovaty

Thanks Arxaw, I think I may go with the simple solution. My tvfool has been posted in other threads, and looks like I've received a little feedback.


----------



## penner42

I've been looking into my situation more and have a question. In general, the higher the better with an antenna, but TV Fool is giving me better signals with a lower one.


Here's mine with an antenna 30 feet up: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a3626cd1f8d852 


And here at 5 feet: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a36257359d2f3f 


I'm most interested in the channels in the red, and the nm and pwr are better for those (though KTTV and KNBC switch from 1edge to 2edge) with the antenna lower. What does this mean? Am I better off having it lower?


----------



## jwetterstrand

We just moved into a SFH within 19 miles of the Manhattan towers, but it seems I have hills and other stuff lurking in the way:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a3624f2f09e31e 


I would need to be able to pick up the Fox affiliate (WNYW-DT) to make this worthwhile, and was hoping to get some advice about feasibility, antenna selection, and thoughts about finding a competent installer -- we'd probably want/need to attach to a two story chimney and I am ladder-averse personally...


Thanks in advance!


John


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I would need to be able to pick up the Fox affiliate (WNYW-DT) to make this worthwhile, and was hoping to get some advice about feasibility, antenna selection,



How important are real channels 4 and 6 to you ? If you want those, youll need a big all channel antenna.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I'm most interested in the channels in the red, and the nm and pwr are better for those (though KTTV and KNBC switch from 1edge to 2edge) with the antenna lower. What does this mean? Am I better off having it lower?



Not usually no. The "edges" basically mean how many times the signal bounces before it gets to you. 1 edge is better than 2 edge.

Most of those channels in the red are going to be very hard for you to get consistantly.


----------



## jwetterstrand

Real channels 4 and 6 aren't important at all. 7 would be very important.


John


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penner42* /forum/post/19164091
> 
> 
> I've been looking into my situation more and have a question. In general, the higher the better with an antenna, but TV Fool is giving me better signals with a lower one.
> 
> 
> Here's mine with an antenna 30 feet up: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a3626cd1f8d852
> 
> 
> And here at 5 feet: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a36257359d2f3f
> 
> 
> I'm most interested in the channels in the red, and the nm and pwr are better for those (though KTTV and KNBC switch from 1edge to 2edge) with the antenna lower. What does this mean? Am I better off having it lower?



TVFool and many other VHF/UHF Propagation Prediction Programs use a fairly complicated

collection of (interacting) models to predict signal levels. It appears it might be showing the

"Ground Bounce" multipath effect, where the signal level varies with antenna height:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html 


Of course, YMMY.....a LOT....esp since the effects of nearby buildings & trees are NOT

included in the TVFool calculations....so re-calculate at different heights...and try

the antenna at different heights....BTW, the sweet spot height will be DIFFERENT

on different channels....


----------



## penner42

Thanks, everyone.


I've decided I'm going to give it a try and see what happens. Ended up going with a 91XG and YA-1713. I also ordered a CM7777, but I suspect I might need a lower gain preamp (or none at all) because of the strong local stations that I don't want.


I also happened to see this review on Amazon ( link ) that made me a little more optimistic. I don't know exactly where he's located, but the fact that it was in his attic makes me think I'll be able to make it work, for the UHF stations, at least.


Hopefully, I won't have a couple of antennas to sell in a few weeks. I'll let you know!


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/19164380
> 
> 
> Most of those channels in the red are going to be very hard for you to get consistantly.



Depends on how much "antenna power" they want to throw into it. I live ~60 hilly miles away from the Austin tower farm and all those full power stations are deep into the red for me (NM from about 2.5 to 12 on TVFool) and with a good, large outdoor antenna solution (I use a 91XG and YA-1713) and a preamp I lock these signals in with very little degradation.


With less than that, yeah, reception will be spotty.


----------



## ziggy29




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penner42* /forum/post/19164989
> 
> 
> Thanks, everyone.
> 
> 
> I've decided I'm going to give it a try and see what happens. Ended up going with a 91XG and YA-1713. I also ordered a CM7777, but I suspect I might need a lower gain preamp (or none at all) because of the strong local stations that I don't want.



If the CM7777 causes tuner overload on the closer stations, try something like an HDP-269. It's not as strong, but it is very tolerant of strong local signals. We have one here that's about 8 miles away and in the same direction as the more distant Austin stations I'm aimed at. The CM7777 didn't work because of the overload, but the HDP-269 works very well here and it's sufficient to pull in the Austin channels.


----------



## zbrett

If you go back a few pages, you'll see I've been struggling with unstable signal quality on WFLD in Chicago. The signal strength is close to 100%, but the signal quality bounces between 75% and 95%, and never stabilizes. The other day I took my CM-4221HD multi directional antenna down from the attic, hooked it up to about 10 feet of coax directly into one of my HDHomerun tuners, and stuck it out an east facing window of the house on the second floor. Guess what... the signal quality still bounces around. I also tried it in various locations in the house with the same results. Using a uni-directional 42XG didn't make a difference either (actually seemed to make it a bit worse). So, I'm curious, what could be the source of this specific interference at my location. Power lines? Meanwhile, I have a 42XG up for auction cheap on eBay if anyone is interested...


----------



## 300ohm

Could be power lines. Could be something silly like a wind turbine. And its hard to say exactly what "signal quality" on your tuner is measuring.


----------



## Ennui

I had an old preamp on my antenna that interfered with only one cable channel.


----------



## zbrett




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/19175679
> 
> 
> I had an old preamp on my antenna that interfered with only one cable channel.



Thanks, but tried it without any amplification with the same result.


The strange thing is I don't have the same problem with any of the other channels that broadcast from the same building (Sears, err, Willis Tower), so something like a building, tree or wind turbine wouldn't seem to make sense.


Here is what the HDHomerun is measuring:


There are three percentages reported by the HDHomeRun -


Signal Strength (ss)

- raw power level as measured by the receiver


Signal Quality (snq)

- how clearly defined the digital data is


Symbol Quality (seq)

- Amount of correct or corrected data over the last second


The above definitions can be confusing, so a much simpler definition is to imagine listening to the radio:


- Signal Strength represents the volume


- Signal Quality represents how clearly you can hear the lyrics


- Symbol Quality indicates the percentage of the lyrics you could hear or guess correctly


As it turns out, Signal Strength is somewhat irrelevant; if your antenna isn't pointed properly, it doesn't matter how loud you turn up the volume, the static will prevent you from hearing the lyrics correctly. Similarly, amplifying a weak HDTV signal can result in a high signal strength but too much noise to decode the digital data correctly.


Use the Signal Strength for a rough idea of direction, but align the antenna for the highest Signal Quality, ignoring Signal Strength. When aimed correctly, Symbol Quality will show 100%, indicating no errors in the output.


Splitters and amplifiers can introduce noise which will lower the Signal Quality, even if the Signal Strength increases.


My problem is when the signal quality dips on WFLD, occasionally the picture will freeze and break up.


----------



## goldrich

zbrett, given your location and your bouncing signal issue with WFLD, I'd speculate that you are experiencing a classic case of multipath. Knowing the signal strength of WFLD (when tropo conditions are up, it's always the first to appear at my location in Indy @ 155 miles) the signal could be bouncing off of numerous buildings before reaching you in Lombard. Plus, from personal experience and info at this site http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4221.html bay antennas like the 4221 are usually the worst at dealing with multipath. A Yagi-style antenna will deal with it much better as they tend to be much more directional, focusing more on the main signal and less on the bouncing or reflecting signal(s). http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html (check out exception 2.)


I'm not familiar with the HDHomerun tuner, but any of the 6th generation chip receivers will deal with this issue much better than any of the earlier chip models.


Steve


----------



## zbrett




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *goldrich* /forum/post/19175905
> 
> 
> zbrett, given your location and your bouncing signal issue with WFLD, I'd speculate that you are experiencing a classic case of multipath. Knowing the signal strength of WFLD (when tropo conditions are up, it's always the first to appear at my location in Indy @ 155 miles) the signal could be bouncing off of numerous buildings before reaching you in Lombard. Plus, from personal experience and info at this site http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4221.html bay antennas like the 4221 are usually the worst at dealing with multipath. A Yagi-style antenna will deal with it much better as they tend to be much more directional, focusing more on the main signal and less on the bouncing or reflecting signal(s). http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html (check out exception 2.)
> 
> 
> I'm not familiar with the HDHomerun tuner, but any of the 6th generation chip receivers will deal with this issue much better than any of the earlier chip models.
> 
> 
> Steve



Makes sense. However, I tried an Antennas Direct 42XG, and experienced the same problem, and the directional characteristics seem to give me issues trying to pick up the two stations broadcasting from the Hancock.


Given my only alternative seems to be to move, I think I'll just live with it.


----------



## ChocoLab




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pvotlucka* /forum/post/19159065
> 
> 
> Do report back after testing. I am curious on outcome. Good luck Choco!



Thanks, I may need it.










If Holl_ands or anyone else sees this soon... I went to the hardware store to buy the materials, and I was off a bit... The thinnest they sell is actually AWG 8. I think it's about the same or even cheaper than 10 ga. at Home Depot, so I'd rather go with the 8, but would that change the optimum dimensions of the antenna at all?


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *zbrett* /forum/post/19175800
> 
> 
> ...The strange thing is I don't have the same problem with any of the other channels that broadcast from the same building (Sears, err, Willis Tower), so something like a building, tree or wind turbine wouldn't seem to make sense...



Actually, it does make sense, because different channel frequencies are not always equally affected by the same objects causing a multipath problem. It could also be some sort of RF interference, which is affecting only one channel.


The next time this happens, if possible, temporarily kill the electrical breakers to *everything* else in your house, just to rule out the possibility of some device in your house that's affecting reception of that one channel. It could even be your computer. To rule that out, try reception with a conventional ATSC TV tuner not connected to a computer.


I have one computer that when it's on, cripples reception of RF channel 19 on the TV located near it. But no other channels are affected.


----------



## Dave Loudin

I've also had CF bulbs cause interference.


----------



## arxaw

Yep.


----------



## craftech

I wanted to thank the people who helped my mother with this:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post18991038 


The Radio Shack antenna in her attic works perfectly with both of her TVs without the CM7777 . Just a splitter.


Thanks again to everyone on this forum who helped us.


Regards,


John


----------



## gbynum




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *zbrett* /forum/post/19175969
> 
> 
> I tried an Antennas Direct 42XG, and experienced the same problem, and the directional characteristics seem to give me issues trying to pick up the two stations broadcasting from the Hancock.
> 
> 
> Given my only alternative seems to be to move, I think I'll just live with it.



They bill that antenna as a full UHF band, but with moderate directivity. Others have reported that specifically aiming at one reflection or another often helps. You MAY need to use one for that channel and your main for the rest with an A-B switch.


----------



## hmhm

I'm in the same position as others here: tired of overpaying for cable services and am at a loss when it comes to knowledge on antennas, etc. Any recommendations for antennas would be greatly appreciated.


Here's my tvfool results: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a362939715a85a 


Did I read this properly -- the major networks (CBS, ABC, FOX, NBC) should be fine to view with a set top antenna (one for each TV)? And is an HD antenna necessary for HDTVs or just a marketing thing?


Thanks in advance.


PS: Is there a thread somewhere about cable tv replacement options?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hmhm* /forum/post/19183849
> 
> 
> Did I read this properly -- the major networks (CBS, ABC, FOX, NBC) should be fine to view with a set top antenna (one for each TV)? And is an HD antenna necessary for HDTVs or just a marketing thing?



The signals are strong enough for an indoor antenna, but expect ongoing frustrations with adjustments.


You'd be better off with a 7-69 antenna distributed to all TV sets. It may work in the attic or gable.


Models to consider are EZ-HD, ANT751, HBU-22, HD7694P.

Aim it at the Empire Sate Building.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hmhm* /forum/post/19183849
> 
> 
> ...is an HD antenna necessary for HDTVs or just a marketing thing?



There is no such thing as an HD antenna. That is marketing BS designed to make the buyer think a special antenna is needed for DTV. All you need is a *TV* antenna like people have been using for the past few decades.

This specific 15-1874 RS antenna should be all you need. The 15-1874 is known to work well for people with similar TVFool results as yours. Do *not* buy an amplified antenna. Your signals are way too strong and would overload the amp and/or TV tuner.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hmhm* /forum/post/19183849
> 
> 
> Did I read this properly -- the major networks (CBS, ABC, FOX, NBC) should be fine to view with a set top antenna (one for each TV)?



In principle, yes. In practice, it depends on how your house is constructed and where in the house the antenna is located. Stucco, metal-foil insulation in the walls, and windows with a reflecting film can all reduce the signal. The only way to know for sure is to try it. The antenna that arxaw suggested is cheap so you won't be out much (or you can return it) if it doesn't work out. Experiment with different locations for the antenna. To give you more flexibility, extend the antenna cable using a "barrel splice" a.k.a. "inline coupler" and another 12' or so of cable which you can also get at Radio Shack.


Your ABC and PBS stations are likely to be the most problematical because they're on VHF channels, and rabbit-ear type indoor antennas just don't pick up digital VHF signals very well.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/19184360
> 
> 
> ...Your ABC and PBS stations are likely to be the most problematical because they're on VHF channels, and rabbit-ear type indoor antennas just don't pick up digital VHF signals very well.



Part of the VHF problem is not the fact that they're digital, it's the fact that the FCC didn't allow many VHFs enough power to blast through walls. UHF is usually much easier because its smaller wavelengths penetrate building materials much more easily than the larger VHF waves. VHF is also more prone to interference than UHF.


Indoors, finding a good reception hot spot is often more important than the antenna you choose. The coax extension is a good idea because it allows you to get the antenna away from sources of interference, which sometimes includes the TV itself.


----------



## audiodane




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19184264
> 
> 
> Do *not* buy an amplified antenna. Your signals are way too strong and would overload the amp and/or TV tuner.



How do you know when an amplifier would produce too strong a signal? How much is too strong? I'm wondering how much my 30' of RG6 quad shield coax might be attenuating the signal.. Maybe not much, I don't know. I'm getting just occasional breakups with my DIY 2bay. Nothing terribly daunting, but I do have an old high quality amp (2ch splitter with amp) available. but I don't want to fry my Tivo.


thanks,

..dane


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ChocoLab* /forum/post/19176284
> 
> 
> Thanks, I may need it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If Holl_ands or anyone else sees this soon... I went to the hardware store to buy the materials, and I was off a bit... The thinnest they sell is actually AWG 8. I think it's about the same or even cheaper than 10 ga. at Home Depot, so I'd rather go with the 8, but would that change the optimum dimensions of the antenna at all?



In the Hi-VHF 4-Bay, going from AWG10 to larger AWG8 only reduces SWR a few tenths,

but remains centered across the band and has negligible effect on Raw Gain....no diff...


BTW: I've rarely found bare AWG10 in my local retailers....I strip off the insulation from

either insulated AWG10 (also rare) or three wire 10/3 ROMEX cable (inexpensive house wiring).


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audiodane* /forum/post/19184926
> 
> 
> How do you know when an amplifier would produce too strong a signal? How much is too strong? I'm wondering how much my 30' of RG6 quad shield coax might be attenuating the signal.. Maybe not much, I don't know. I'm getting just occasional breakups with my DIY 2bay. Nothing terribly daunting, but I do have an old high quality amp (2ch splitter with amp) available. but I don't want to fry my Tivo.
> 
> 
> thanks,
> 
> ..dane



First of all, when a Preamp "overloads" it means the input signals are causing

the very sensitive RF amplifier in the Preamp to go into non-linear operation,

generating intermodulation distortion noise on some (but not all) channels, making

it more difficult to receive some weak channels. The output of a Preamp is no

more than a few MILLIWATTS....which can't cause physical harm to your TiVo....


I provided a Preamp Overload Calculator and other info here:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota 


Some rules of thumb:

1. Don't use high gain Preamps (e.g. CM7777) with an outdoor antenna unless you

are in a RURAL location, well away from FM & TV broadcast towers (10+ miles).

2. You MIGHT get away with using a high gain Preamp if antenna is indoors/attic.


----------



## audiodane




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/19185195
> 
> 
> First of all, when a Preamp "overloads" it means the input signals are causing
> 
> the very sensitive RF amplifier in the Preamp to go into non-linear operation,
> 
> generating intermodulation distortion noise on some (but not all) channels, making
> 
> it more difficult to receive some weak channels. The output of a Preamp is no
> 
> more than a few MILLIWATTS....which can't cause physical harm to your TiVo....
> 
> 
> I provided a Preamp Overload Calculator and other info here:
> http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota
> 
> 
> Some rules of thumb:
> 
> 1. Don't use high gain Preamps (e.g. CM7777) with an outdoor antenna unless you
> 
> are in a RURAL location, well away from FM & TV broadcast towers (10+ miles).
> 
> 2. You MIGHT get away with using a high gain Preamp if antenna is indoors/attic.



Thanks. Appreciate the feedback. I admit I'm a bit overwhelmed by your spreadsheet. I understand MOST of it (but certainly not ALL of it)... but also notice that as I plug in various values for my particular situation, things like the bottom area where calculation results are either BLACK or ORANGE, the colors don't auto-adjust (even though the numbers do), so it's unclear what range you are using to specify overall likelihood of overload. Looks like anything stronger than -15 gets orange (-13, -5, etc), and anything weaker than -15 gets black (-21, etc). Simple conditional formatting would fix that, and I'd be happy to do it for you. Just need to know where the thresholds lie. Also I'm unsure of what all to put in the top boxes. Transmit ERP... is that the max ERP as listed on TVFool for the strongest station I receive, or is that "Effective ERP (at your location)" as reported by TVFool? And other losses.. What is a typical number range for loss when located in an attic? ...


So, I'd be happy to add some to your spreadsheet for others to use if I knew the right information.







(and if it's in the spreadsheet and I'm just totally overlooking it, then my major apologies!!!)


thanks!

..dane


----------



## holl_ands

I only colorized the particular example in the original spread sheet.

There is NO auto-color feature.... And I have only a VAGUE CLUE as to

what the "overload" characteristics are for a particular Tuner....YMMV....


TVFool's "Effective ERP" is what is directed toward YOU, rather than "Maximum ERP",

which is FCC allocation...and probably directed somewhere else...


Indoor Loss and Antenna Height Gain are summarized here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=14035356 
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=918798


----------



## hmhm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19184264
> 
> This specific 15-1874 RS antenna should be all you need. The 15-1874 is known to work well for people with similar TVFool results as yours. Do *not* buy an amplified antenna. Your signals are way too strong and would overload the amp and/or TV tuner.



Many thanks for your suggestion. The reviews on that antenna look good.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/19184360
> 
> 
> Your ABC and PBS stations are likely to be the most problematical because they're on VHF channels, and rabbit-ear type indoor antennas just don't pick up digital VHF signals very well.



If that's the case and an amplified antenna will overload the amp/tuner -- any suggestions on how to pick up ABC?


----

It's been at least 2 decades since I've even seen an antenna let alone use one and now I'm wondering what other equipment I'll need. AppleTV + Tivo are on their way. Random questions follow:


- Is a converter box required if both TVs have built-in/integrated ATSC tuners? (Well one says built-in and the other says fully integrated -- Pioneer Elite Pro100-FD + Sharp Aquos LC26D4U)

- How does weather affect OTA reception?


----------



## MrHT




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19184264
> 
> This specific 15-1874 RS antenna should be all you need. The 15-1874 is known to work well for people with similar TVFool results as yours. Do *not* buy an amplified antenna. Your signals are way too strong and would overload the amp and/or TV tuner.



I live in Woodside, NY 11377 and a couple of people at another thread suggested that the RS 15-1874 would be fine for me. I plan to pick it up today during my lunch break.


But tell me....does this antenna work well with UHF signals when there are airplanes passing by your apartment?


The reason I ask is because my previous RCA antenna had dropouts on UHF channels every time an airplane passes by.


----------



## tbird2340

My current outdoor antenna is busted up and I want to get a new / better one.. I've tried researching and reading up on antennas but all the info makes my head spin.. Roters, amplifiers, etc..


Basically I got on Amazon and looked at some best selling Antennas.. I *think* I narrowed it down to the DB8 or the ClearStream4. Both get excellent reviews but I'm not sure which to get or if there is another option that is cheaper that will work just as good..


We live on the bottom of a hill and I just have my current boom antenna attached to my chimney. I was thinking I could possibly get a longer pole when I get my new antenna to try and get it higher. My current one is about 3'.. But then I thought if I make it too high would the wind be an issue.


Any help would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks

TVFool 

AntennaPoint


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hmhm* /forum/post/19193730
> 
> 
> ...If that's the case and an amplified antenna will overload the amp/tuner -- any suggestions on how to pick up ABC?



If you have problems with indoor VHF reception, the solution is usually an outdoor antenna.



> Quote:
> - Is a converter box required if both TVs have built-in/integrated ATSC tuners?



No.



> Quote:
> How does weather affect OTA reception?



It depends. Lightning can cause annoying audio/video dropouts, but that usually only occurs on VHF channels. If you have sufficient signal strength, rain fade does not affect OTA reception (unlike satellite reception).




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrHT* /forum/post/19194381
> 
> 
> I live in Woodside, NY 11377 and a couple of people at another thread suggested that the RS 15-1874 would be fine for me. I plan to pick it up today during my lunch break.
> 
> 
> But tell me....does this antenna work well with UHF signals when there are airplanes passing by your apartment?



It hasn't affected mine. But it's impossible to predict how anything will affect indoor reception, which is always a crap shoot.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tbird2340* /forum/post/19194493
> 
> 
> My current outdoor antenna is busted up and I want to get a new / better one..
> 
> Basically I got on Amazon and looked at some best selling Antennas.. I *think* I narrowed it down to the DB8 or the ClearStream4.



You have both VHF & UHF channels. Both the DB8 and CS4 are UHF antennas. Look at antennas that are good for both High VHF and UHF bands, like the Winegard HD769 series or Antennacraft HBU series .


----------



## hayj

Climbing to the top of a 1768 foot tower.


I saw this today and thought it was amazing. Not sure if you've seen it or it's been posted but here's the link.


----------



## tbird2340




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19194793
> 
> 
> You have both VHF & UHF channels. Both the DB8 and CS4 are UHF antennas. Look at antennas that are good for both High VHF and UHF bands, like the Winegard HD769 series or Antennacraft HBU series .



1. So which one out of those do you recommend?


2. Those are all directional antennas, correct? That means I would have to get a rotator if I wanted to pick those channels up?


3. Say I didn't care about the few VHF channels.. Which UHF antenna would you recommend?


Thanks


----------



## hmhm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19184264
> 
> 
> This specific 15-1874 RS antenna should be all you need. The 15-1874 is known to work well for people with similar TVFool results as yours. Do *not* buy an amplified antenna. Your signals are way too strong and would overload the amp and/or TV tuner.



Hooked up the antenna this afternoon to the Aquos LC26D4U. Crystal clear day weather-wise here and the reception is amazing. Relatively easy to setup too. Hopefully, the $11.99 investment will pay off even in inclement weather.


----------



## penner42

An update on my situation, trying to get LA channels from Santa Barbara (Goleta). Here's my TV Fool results again: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a3623d406b228c 


My antennas showed up today, 91XG and YA-1713. Separately, on a camera tripod out on my front lawn, they both work wonderfully. KNBC is a little marginal, but I'm hoping some extra height or moving around a bit will make it work.


Given the great result from just my lawn, I am going to try them in the attic. If that doesn't work, I at least know I can put them somewhere to get reception. No idea at the moment on day/night differences. Looks like I might really be able to cancel cable!


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hmhm* /forum/post/19195493
> 
> 
> Hooked up the antenna this afternoon to the Aquos LC26D4U. Crystal clear day weather-wise here and the reception is amazing. Relatively easy to setup too. Hopefully, the $11.99 investment will pay off even in inclement weather.



Glad it works for you, at least initially. Hopefully, your reception will remain good.


----------



## arxaw

@tbird,

What is the weakest channel on your TVFool chart that's a must-have? (Stations are listed from strongest to weakest.)


----------



## tbird2340




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19196621
> 
> 
> @tbird,
> 
> What is the weakest channel on your TVFool chart that's a must-have? (Stations are listed from strongest to weakest.)



Please read this thread if you have the time and see what you think:

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?p=2793#post2793


----------



## penner42

Well, neither antenna worked from the attic. Not too surprised on that one. I guess they'll end up on the roof. I had the antennas sitting on my lawn, connected through the CM7777, and it was working fairly well. I've attached a pic of how they were set up.










Also, a list of the channels I was getting. Some had some pixelation, but not much dropout.


So now I've gotta figure out mounting them. I'm thinking of using an eave mount. Can something like that handle both antennas (91XG, YA-1713) on one mast? How much will the wind affect it?


Thanks again, everyone, for helping out with this.








 

 

channels.txt 0.9130859375k . file


----------



## The Hound

I would think you would have problems spacing the antennas on an eave mount.

You want at least 3 foot inbetween the elements of the UHF and VHF antennas.


----------



## penner42




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *The Hound* /forum/post/19198101
> 
> 
> I would think you would have problems spacing the antennas on an eave mount.
> 
> You want at least 3 foot inbetween the elements of the UHF and VHF antennas.



Right... I'm aware. An eave mount won't support a mast high enough for that? Can it get 5-6 feet above the peak of the roof?


----------



## 300ohm

An solid eave mount with the bottom of the mast pole a couple of feet in the ground (or better yet, in cement) and the top of the mast 5 ft above the eave mount would be OK.


----------



## The Hound

I see what you're saying.


----------



## penner42




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *The Hound* /forum/post/19198350
> 
> 
> I see what you're saying.
> 
> I was thinking the OP was talking about one of these
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Supplies&sku=



I was talking about one of those. I guess that with the mast going all the way into the ground is what's needed.


----------



## ncalsurfer

Hi Guys,

I'm ready to ditch cable robbers for good. What are the best threads to read for a newbie and learn about what to buy and how to setup. I'm mechanical (years in the trades working on houses) and technical (computer / internet master by profession).


My TV Fool results should be in my signature. I can't post here since I have less than 3 posts.


Thanks in advance!


----------



## ncalsurfer

Sorry for the newb post, just found the newbie faq. disregard my message. I'm sure I'll be back later though!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I guess that with the mast going all the way into the ground is what's needed.



Yeah, I wouldnt trust a Channel Master CM9030 Adjustable Eave Mount (without the mast end into the ground) for anything but small reflector less antennas. Maybe possibly up to a CM4221 single or a C2 - C4.


----------



## Ennui

I had some large and heavy ham antennas on this mount for many years. It was made from scrap iron.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penner42* /forum/post/19198077
> 
> 
> Well, neither antenna worked from the attic. Not too surprised on that one. ...



Not surprising at all, if that's stucco in the picture you attached.


----------



## arxaw

@tbird2340,

(per your post on that other forum) Are you only interested in getting KDKA?


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ncalsurfer* /forum/post/19201132
> 
> 
> ...My TV Fool results should be in my signature. I can't post here since I have less than 3 posts.



Post the truncated part of the URL and we can figure it out. Or post a couple of test posts to get up to the number needed to post a complete URL.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I had some large and heavy ham antennas on this mount for many years. It was made from scrap iron.



Whats the make and model of that top uhf corner reflector ??



I dont think that mount would have lasted long here with my winds.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/19204985
> 
> 
> Whats the make and model of that top uhf corner reflector ??
> 
> 
> 
> I dont think that mount would have lasted long here with my winds.



It's a Winegard HD 9095P.


(The bottom VHF is a Winegard also with a modified mount.


----------



## penner42

Okay, I'd like to thank everyone again for all their help! I'm going to go with EMT conduits for the mast (I've read both sides of the argument, and am gonna go with it), with the CM9030 and the mast going all the way into the ground.


One more thing now. I'd like to have my antennas tilted slightly upwards. The 91XG mount lets me do that, but the YA-1713 doesn't. Can anyone recommend just a different mount I can put on that antenna to have it angled up? Thanks!


----------



## tbird2340




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19202907
> 
> 
> @tbird2340,
> 
> (per your post on that other forum) Are you only interested in getting KDKA?



No, not necessarily. I want as many channels I can get within reason.. I don't want to spend over $150 and I don't want to have a 60 foot mast off my roof either..


I did go ahead and purchase the 91XG today so I hope when it comes in I can get some more channels..


Thoughts on this antenna for me?


Thanks!


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tbird2340* /forum/post/19207549
> 
> 
> 
> Thoughts on this antenna for me?
> 
> 
> Thanks!



Great choice!! I haven't found anything that works better for hard to get UHF channels. Have tried the original Channel Master 4228 & Winegard HD8800 in 3 different areas (metropolitan, suburban & deep fringe) & the 91XG proved superior each time.


----------



## arxaw

The 91xg is a good UHF high gain fringe antenna. Very directional and sometimes requires precise aim. A rotor would help with that.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penner42* /forum/post/19207522
> 
> 
> Okay, I'd like to thank everyone again for all their help! I'm going to go with EMT conduits for the mast (I've read both sides of the argument, and am gonna go with it), with the CM9030 and the mast going all the way into the ground.
> 
> 
> One more thing now. I'd like to have my antennas tilted slightly upwards. The 91XG mount lets me do that, but the YA-1713 doesn't. Can anyone recommend just a different mount I can put on that antenna to have it angled up? Thanks!



Here's a Tilting Bracket that probably does the job....be sure to call to confirm:
http://www.atechfabrication.com/prod...g_brackets.htm 


Here's 91XG Elevation Gain, in case you haven't seen it already:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html 


Here are the YA-1713's Elevation Gain Charts:
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...on%20Angle.jpg 
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...on%20Angle.jpg 
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...on%20Angle.jpg 

and for an older, slightly different version of the YA-1713:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w1713.html 


So YA-1713 has about 1 dB loss at elevation angle of about 20-degrees on CH7,

about 15-degrees on Ch10 and about 10-degrees on Ch12 (and Ch13).


KTTV (Ch11) "Transmitter Profile" in your TVFool report appears to indicate the

diffraction point is a mountain about 25 miles away, rather than the nearby hills.

[But it is difficult to read the tiny bumps......]


GoogleEarth can be used to estimate how much higher diffraction (or reflection)

point is than your location (h) and how far away (d) it is. I used the DISTANCE

feature to draw a line between the tower location on Mt Wilson and your zipcode.

But I need a lot more accuracy to determine the actual propagation path....


I could give you a detailed profile (using Radio-Mobile PPP) if you send me a PM

with your location to whatever accuracy you feel comfortable (nearest cross-streets?).

I prefer LAT/LONG, but can work with what you got....


Once you determine h and d, plug them into:

Elevation Angle = arctan(h/d), where arctan is "tan-1" on most calculators


So if a nearby hill is 400-feet higher at a point 1200-feet away: Angle=18.4-degrees.


And if it's the 1500-1800 "mountain" between Carpenteria and Lake Casitas:

Angle=0.65 to 0.78 degrees (in which case the Tilting Bracket is unnecessary).


PS: In the L.A. Smog Basin, you would need to be closer than about 5-miles

from the Mt Wilson Towers to be concerned about tilt mounting a YA-1713.

That's closer than Pasadena.....


----------



## penner42

Thanks, holl_ands! I think I will try without tilting the YA-1713. I'm thinking what I've had to do so far is to get it over nearby houses which won't be necessary once it's up on the roof.


Now, on to grounding... we VERY rarely get any lightning here, but 
__
https://flic.kr/p/1274305586
​ in a while...[/URL] (shot from my backyard).


I think I've got this pretty much covered. It's been tough to sort through a lot of the misinformation on the web. My grounding rod is close enough to where the antenna is going that I don't need an additional one. I have two real questions:


1) Lots of stuff I read says to ground the antenna and the mast. Other stuff says use a coax grounding block for the coax. Is grounding the coax with the grounding block "grounding the antenna?" So I'd just need one of those, and to ground the mast?


2) Since the mast will be running all the way into the ground, is it good enough to just run a horizontal grounding wire fairly low on the mast to the grounding rod? Or should it come from higher up on the mast?


Oh, one other thing... the weather boots that came with the antennas and pre-amp for the coax cables. I can't get them on the pre-made cables I have. Am I missing something or are they supposed to go on before the connectors are put on the ends? I'm not against getting some tools to do this right. I have an old crimping tool, but I'd rather do it right with a compression tool.


Thanks again!


----------



## holl_ands

To ensure insurance company doesn't have an excuse to NOT cover damages, *you must do BOTH*:

1. Ground the Antenna Mast (at the bottom). [Primary, high current discharge path]

[The "best" implementation provides a short, direct path to ground, rather than

injecting high currents into the Coax Ground Block's path to ground....poof!!!!]

2. Use a Coaxial Grounding Block close to where the cable enters the building.

[Also mandatory....provides a second level of protection...and physically separated.]


SAT Dishes must be installed in accordance with these same rules....although frequently violated.

INDOOR/ATTIC antenna are NOT subject to these rules (the house takes the hit)....


Links to *TV & SAT Installation Guides* and Static Electricity buildup explanations:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8591196 

Detailed lightning protection info found here:
http://www.panamax.com/PDF/IEEE_Guide.pdf 

However, they mostly deal with a direct or nearby strike.


The NEC mandated Coax Grounding Block provides not only a second level of protection

against nearby strikes, it also drains off some of the static electricity buildup, which is

caused by WIND blowing against the antenna (just like shuffling your feet along a carpet),

and is much more likely to damage your equipment than an extremely rare direct hit.

[BTW: The Mast Ground STILL may only reduce but not eliminate damage to the house.]


Since the Coax Grounding Block has a fairly high breakdown voltage, the ultimate in

protection is provided by adding SiDAC or MOV and/or Gas Tube Discharge devices.


================================================

Weather boots that come with Baluns, etc. are intended for installation on bare coax,

before the connector is crimped on....thereby maintaining a tight seal on the coax.


There is some watertight sealing tape that performs the same job (maybe better):
http://www.summitsource.com/coax-sea...04-p-4464.html 


===========================================

PS: I trilaterated your approx. position using the TVFool report. Radio-Mobile

calculates a Path Profile, showing that the first obstruction is from a nearby

hill: 74-m higher than you and 9700-m away, so Angle=0.44-degree.

Which would mean a Tilting Bracket is not needed for YA-1713....or 91XG,

other than what you might need to "look over" nearby houses....

Hmmm....If they are 10-ft higher at 100-ft away, that's only 5.7-degrees.....


----------



## Dave Loudin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tbird2340* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> No, not necessarily. I want as many channels I can get within reason.. I don't want to spend over $150 and I don't want to have a 60 foot mast off my roof either..
> 
> 
> I did go ahead and purchase the 91XG today so I hope when it comes in I can get some more channels..
> 
> 
> Thoughts on this antenna for me?
> 
> 
> Thanks!



That will get all the Pgh. UHF, but you won't see WQED or WPCW, like we mentioned in another forum.


----------



## arxaw

penner42,

Is the ground rod you plan to use the same one your home's electrical power is grounded to? If not, the two ground sources must be bonded together with a ground wire between the two. This reduces the difference in potential between the two ground sources (ground loop currents) that may damage electronics.


----------



## penner42

Once again, thanks for all the information holl_ands! Confirmed for me that I was thinking correctly about grounding everything.


arxaw: Yep, it's the same grounding rod as my home's electrical.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penner42* /forum/post/19210431
> 
> 
> Thanks, holl_ands! I think I will try without tilting the YA-1713.



That's a good move. Tilting a VHF antenna doesn't work the same as UHF. A VHF antenna reacts with the ground in front of it to create a up-tilted pattern. You control the amount of up-tilt by raising or lowering the antenna. An antenna close to the ground has more uptilt than and antenna that is higher. An antenna at a specific height will have more uptilt on the lower VHF channels than the upper VHF channels.


The ground gain will be 6 db with flat ground in front of the antenna. Depending on terrain, your antenna may work better when installed lower.


----------



## LithOTA

I have 2 preamplifiers- a Channel Master 7777 and a Radio Shack 15-321. I have noticed that while the CM is awesome for regular viewing, it just doesn't want to DX. I have tried switching the amps on 3 factory antennas- ClearStream 4, Winegard 4400, and Winegard 9022, and I've done so enough to eliminate random tropo as a factor.

When the tropo is strong, the CM seems to just ignore the DX signals, like they weren't there. But switch to the RS amp and viola, a slew of far-off stations come streaming in. Switch back, and they're gone with the wind.

Now this RS amp is from Radio Shack, and it can't compare to the CM when it comes to keeping local stations dropout-free. It has a gain control and a "booster" switch, both of which I leave maxxed because it works better. It has DX'd stations 120 miles away at times when the tropo is minimal or non-existent. I've DX'd over 70 stations from Omaha to Saginaw to Louisville with this "Crapshack" amp.

The CM 7777, on the other hand, is designed for a Master Antenna on an apartment building or hotel. It will not DX anything, except for "clear channels" (without co-channels in my area) with the strongest tropo help.


So I was wondering if anyone else has had similar results...Does anyone out there have success DXing with a CM7777?


----------



## hmhm

It's now Day 6 of using OTA 15-1874 Radio Shack antenna with my Sharp Aquos LC26D4U and while the reception has been terrific -- occasionally the screen will freeze and the TV is unresponsive via both remote & manual power on/off. Unplug/replug seems to be the only solution to get the tv back up and running.


Any ideas what causes the freezing?

TIA


ETA: spoke with local AV guys...could possibly be a multipath issue. Does this sound right and is a multidirectional antenna the most viable solution?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hmhm* /forum/post/19218210
> 
> 
> ETA: spoke with local AV guys...could possibly be a multipath issue. Does this sound right and is a multidirectional antenna the most viable solution?



Yes, it could be a multipath issue.


The most viable solution is a unidirectional antenna. Depending on your location a rotor may be needed.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hmhm* /forum/post/19218210
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> occasionally the screen will freeze and the TV is unresponsive via both remote & manual power on/off. Unplug/replug seems to be the only solution to get the tv back up and running.
> 
> 
> Any ideas what causes the freezing?
> 
> TIA
> 
> 
> ...



Hi,


I am sad to hear that I am not the only one.


In my case my HDTV TV has an Alpha version of the software for it's ATSC tuner.


The price was dropping like a rock at Microcenter and I purchased it for a monitor for my HTPC which has 7 great tuners, the ATSC tuner was not part of the consideration.


I quite often have to turn power off completely and then back on. Poor signal quality is most often the cause.


Winbook 37M1 - 37 LCD HDTV & PC-HD Monitor Official Thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=724017 


Just for the record, my last NTSC TV which was a top of the line RCA also needed the power cord unplugged to fix a problem.


SHF


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/19217676
> 
> 
> So I was wondering if anyone else has had similar results...Does anyone out there have success DXing with a CM7777?



I live 5 miles from the Indy antenna farm, and one local station's tower is only 3 miles away. Using a CM 7777 with a Funke high band VHF antenna and a Triax Unix-100 wideband UHF stack (horizontally) I only have a few issues while DXing when the antennas are aimed directly at the towers. Otherwise, the 7777 operates fine. I use an old 1970s Winegard preamp with a Triax band-A UHF stack (horizontally) for channels 14-36 (more gain than the wideband antennas). All of these antennas are in the 35-42 ft. AGL range.


Between Friday night and late Saturday morning, with some good tropo conditions to the southeast, the 7777 setup was able to receive stations like WVVA-DT (RF 46) and WLFB-DT (RF 40), Bluefield, WV @ 323-325 miles, WLFG-DT (RF 49), Grundy, VA @ 307 miles, WEMT-DT (RF 38), Greeneville, TN @ 328 miles, WBIR-DT (RF 10), Knoxville, TN @ 297 miles, WYMT-DT (RF 12), Hazard, KY @ 248 miles and WAVG-DT (RF 51), Harlan, KY @ 263 miles.


Most of my DXing is via the Zenith/Insignia CECBs (two of each brand). Sometimes receivers can be overloaded by high gain preamps. Adding an adjustable attenuator to the line can usually help this issue by finding just the right signal level for the receiver. This is what I use when attempting to DX stations in the same direction as my local antenna farm.


I've included a pic of the antennas on the tower. I've also included a pic of a recently acquired Finco P-7 (UHF 7-ft. parabolic antenna) which is also connected to a CM 7777. I'm currently testing it on a temporary mast @ about 25 ft. AGL. I've added chicken wire to the center portion of the dish to improve the F/B ratio.


Many DX members of this group www.wtfda.org use the CM 7777.


Steve


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *goldrich* /forum/post/19221585
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many DX members of this group www.wtfda.org use the CM 7777.
> 
> 
> Steve



Thank you Steve. I have a very crowded spectrum around here, and sometimes DXing is like looking at stars during the day.

I have noticed several times the CM will overload and grab an adjacent channel. Maybe this effect is enough to overpower the DX stations. It would explain why WTLJ-54 on RF 24 (one of my only DX windows here) is the ONLY one that ever comes in.

I switched back to the Radio Shack amp, and whammo, Green Bay started pouring in Sunday night. I guess maybe the RS's consumer-grade circuitry actually helps in my situation.

Mike


PS...Nice parabolic! Those are like gold nowadays (if you have the space for it). Your Yagi rig looks great too...but if I did that, my neighbors would show up with torches and pitchforks. As it is I get wierd looks when I'm working on my 28' mast/tower on the deck (twin offset masts with the rotor mounted low and a bearing on top), and it only has a WG 9022 and a DIY VHF-high Yagi that's only 3 feet long.


----------



## paris_tn

Goldrich, i bought a new Finco P7 also 6 or 8 months ago. I have not got mine up yet. I am interested in what you think of it comparred to your two stacked yagi's. I also have a pair of stacked yai's extended. I am in the process of stacking four of these but i am having to do more mast and tower work before i get things ready. After this, i can put another tower up and go up with the p7. Was the chicken wire mod hard to do or time consuming and do you think the mod is worth it? I was thinking of doing the mod on mine. Your p7 looks nice and like new.


----------



## hmhm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1* /forum/post/19220546
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> 
> I am sad to hear that I am not the only one.
> 
> 
> In my case my HDTV TV has an Alpha version of the software for it's ATSC tuner.
> 
> 
> The price was dropping like a rock at Microcenter and I purchased it for a monitor for my HTPC which has 7 great tuners, the ATSC tuner was not part of the consideration.
> 
> 
> I quite often have to turn power off completely and then back on. Poor signal quality is most often the cause.
> 
> 
> Winbook 37M1 - 37 LCD HDTV & PC-HD Monitor Official Thread
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=724017
> 
> 
> Just for the record, my last NTSC TV which was a top of the line RCA also needed the power cord unplugged to fix a problem.
> 
> 
> SHF



The signal is great when the TV doesn't freeze










That being said, I figured I'd test out the set top antenna on the Aquos 26" before getting the same antenna for the main TV (Pioneer Elite Pro110FD). Glad I did ... though at this point I'm not sure what the next steps should be.


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hmhm* /forum/post/19225266
> 
> 
> The signal is great when the TV doesn't freeze
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That being said, I figured I'd test out the set top antenna on the Aquos 26" before getting the same antenna for the main TV (Pioneer Elite Pro110FD). Glad I did ... though at this point I'm not sure what the next steps should be.



Did you try it on your main TV? It may perform different in a different room and different TV tuner.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hmhm* /forum/post/19225266
> 
> 
> The signal is great when the TV doesn't freeze
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... at this point I'm not sure what the next steps should be.



If you haven't tried it, the next step would be to try the antenna in a different location, away from the TV and any other nearby electronics that can interfere with reception. Near a window facing the transmitters is usually best. To extend the hardwired coax on an indoor antenna, use a coax barrel splice .


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *goldrich* /forum/post/19221585
> 
> 
> I live 5 miles from the Indy antenna farm, and one local station's tower is only 3 miles away. Using a CM 7777 with a Funke high band VHF antenna and a Triax Unix-100 wideband UHF stack (horizontally) I only have a few issues while DXing when the antennas are aimed directly at the towers.



I'm amazed that with all the gain in your antennas that adding the CM 7777 doesn't totally overload your receivers. I'm located 3/4 mile from Sutro Tower here in San Francisco, and I haven't found any preamp that will work, including the CM 7777. Even with the antennas turned for lowest signal levels from Sutro, the preamp degrades my signal over no preamp at all. I really wish I could use one because there are three or four stations that are normally in the 12 to 14 dB SNR range that with a preamp would probably be above the 15 dB edge and produce a picture.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *goldrich* /forum/post/19221585
> 
> 
> I've included a pic of the antennas on the tower. I've also included a pic of a recently acquired Finco P-7 (UHF 7-ft. parabolic antenna) which is also connected to a CM 7777. I'm currently testing it on a temporary mast @ about 25 ft. AGL. I've added chicken wire to the center portion of the dish to improve the F/B ratio.
> 
> 
> Many DX members of this group www.wtfda.org use the CM 7777.
> 
> 
> Steve



You've got an outstanding array! How'd you get it all up there? Crane?


I used to have a parabolic antenna and it worked great until it fell apart from corrosion. It's too bad that they don't make them any more.


Larry

SF


----------



## penner42

Okay, I've got one more question, and I'm afraid I won't like the answer to it.


Where I want to put the antenna is fairly close (6-7 feet?) from where the power line comes into my house. It's not anywhere near any high voltage overhead lines, just the one running from the utility pole to the house. From what I've read online, I don't have to worry about those as much, but I'm still concerned I shouldn't put the antenna up there.


If it got knocked down, it could fall on it, though a suggestion given to me was to put a semi-taught wire pulling it the other direction, so if it came down it'd fall the other way.


So... should I not be mounting it here?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> So... should I not be mounting it here?



Thats not a good place at all. Besides the clear danger, youll be picking up power line noise too.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penner42* /forum/post/19230966
> 
> 
> Okay, I've got one more question, and I'm afraid I won't like the answer to it.
> 
> 
> Where I want to put the antenna is fairly close (6-7 feet?) from where the power line comes into my house. It's not anywhere near any high voltage overhead lines, just the one running from the utility pole to the house. From what I've read online, I don't have to worry about those as much, but I'm still concerned I shouldn't put the antenna up there.
> 
> 
> If it got knocked down, it could fall on it, though a suggestion given to me was to put a semi-taught wire pulling it the other direction, so if it came down it'd fall the other way.
> 
> 
> So... should I not be mounting it here?



240 VAC will fry you so fast no one would be able to help you. If the juice doesn't get you by itself, your body's involuntary reaction to the shock will likely send you to the ground.


Put the antenna up so that the mounting distance from your service entrance lines is more than the combined length of the rig (mast plus antenna) plus a safety margin for wind effects.


----------



## penner42

Yeah, I thought so. Here's a pic, though it's hard to really tell from this. I want the antennas up near the peak of the eaves (a little to the far side, maybe), and you can see where the power comes in.


If that's too close (and I think it probably is), then this might not happen. I really don't want to put holes in my roof, and there's no other suitable location for them.


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penner42* /forum/post/19233968
> 
> 
> Yeah, I thought so. Here's a pic, though it's hard to really tell from this. I want the antennas up near the peak of the eaves (a little to the far side, maybe), and you can see where the power comes in.
> 
> 
> If that's too close (and I think it probably is), then this might not happen. I really don't want to put holes in my roof, and there's no other suitable location for them.



Ask the experts around here, I'll bet someone has a way to mount the antenna, even if it means poking holes in the roof. Its been done for many years so there's probably a solution that will work for you. Good luck.


Thank goodness all I need are rabbit ears in my apartment.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I really don't want to put holes in my roof, and there's no other suitable location for them.



Holes in the roof ?, heavens no. Run the coax down the roof to a hole in the wall near the TV. Holes in the roof is never a good idea.


Your main electrical input into your house is exactly like mine is.


----------



## penner42




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/19235158
> 
> 
> Holes in the roof ?, heavens no. Run the coax down the roof to a hole in the wall near the TV. Holes in the roof is never a good idea.
> 
> 
> Your main electrical input into your house is exactly like mine is.



I meant holes in the roof to mount a tripod on the roof, because putting the antennas where I want on an eave mast (with mast going into the ground) is too close to the power line. The coax will go in the side of the house where you can see the phone and cable lines going in now.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I meant holes in the roof to mount a tripod on the roof,



I take it no chimney suitable. Use plenty of roof sealant on the tri-pod mount. You can get it in various colors to match the shingles. If none of the colors is available, you can use stones from a left over shingle to imbed in the sealant before it dries.


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paris_tn* /forum/post/19224504
> 
> 
> Goldrich, i bought a new Finco P7 also 6 or 8 months ago. I have not got mine up yet. I am interested in what you think of it comparred to your two stacked yagi's. I also have a pair of stacked yai's extended. I am in the process of stacking four of these but i am having to do more mast and tower work before i get things ready. After this, i can put another tower up and go up with the p7. Was the chicken wire mod hard to do or time consuming and do you think the mod is worth it? I was thinking of doing the mod on mine. Your p7 looks nice and like new.



Great question about the comparison between the P-7 and the two Yagi stacks, but since I just got the P-7 last month and due to the temporary mounting at about 25 ft., it's really difficult to know how to answer. At 25 ft. the P-7 doesn't even clear the roofline on the north side of my house, plus being in a suburban neighborhood, my ranch house is surrounded by several two-story houses with high rooflines and mature trees. The P-7 does seem to have a less obstructed view to the east toward Dayton and Columbus, OH. Dayton stations (around 101 miles) do seem to be stronger with the P-7 when tropo conditions are enhanced.


As for screening the dish with chicken wire, it really wasn't that difficult but it was rather time consuming. I do believe it has improved the F/B ratio some. As an example, when tropo is up in the area, I sometimes receive medium to very strong signals from up to four stations on channel 36: Fort Wayne (usually the dominate signal), Terre Haute, Lexington and Columbus. One morning the P-7 was able to pick out the Columbus station @161 miles while the stacks were still receiving too much signal off the side from Fort Wayne @ 94 miles. But some of the signal from Fort Wayne is currently blocked to the P-7 by the roofline, so this is yet another variable between the two antenna setups.


More checking, testing and modifications to come. Good luck with your stack and P-7 projects. I'll be anxious to read of your experiences and results.


Steve


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penner42* /forum/post/19233968
> 
> 
> I really don't want to put holes in my roof, and there's no other suitable location for them.



Agree with the no holes concern, the fewer roof penetrations the better. What about mounting it on the opposite Gable far away from the utility entrance?


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/19228914
> 
> 
> I'm amazed that with all the gain in your antennas that adding the CM 7777 doesn't totally overload your receivers. I'm located 3/4 mile from Sutro Tower here in San Francisco, and I haven't found any preamp that will work, including the CM 7777.
> 
> 
> You've got an outstanding array! How'd you get it all up there? Crane?
> 
> 
> I used to have a parabolic antenna and it worked great until it fell apart from corrosion. It's too bad that they don't make them any more.



For DXing DTV, the Zenith/Insignia CECBs don't seem to have any major issues with too much signal, or at least what an attenuator can readjust on a few stations. Being 3/4 of a mile from your local tower would definitely cause lots of issues. And I thought I was close to the local signals!


The stacks were designed and built by another nearby DXer. In fact I bought them from him, along with a used crank-up tower built by Aluma Tower Co. It has two winches: one raises and lowers the inside tower section to adjust antenna height, while the second winch lays the tower over into the yard so it is easy to work on while standing on the ground!! No tower climbing required. The winches turn via an electric drill.


I bought and installed a Channel Master 4250 (6 ft. parabolic) back when I was in high school (ouch.....40 years ago). The CM parabolics were built like tanks. The Finco P-7 parabolic was not built as sturdy but it is lighter in weight which makes it a little easier to mount and deal with. Some DXers prefer the Finco over the CM. I enjoy experimenting and testing.


Steve


----------



## penner42




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tschmidt* /forum/post/19236110
> 
> 
> Agree with the no holes concern, the fewer roof penetrations the better. What about mounting it on the opposite Gable far away from the utility entrance?



I'm on a corner, so this would be out on the street side of the house, and I don't really want that. It would also add a lot of work, as it would need another grounding rod and bonding of it to the existing one. It would make the coax run a bit shorter.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/19235932
> 
> 
> I take it no chimney suitable. Use plenty of roof sealant on the tri-pod mount. You can get it in various colors to match the shingles. If none of the colors is available, you can use stones from a left over shingle to imbed in the sealant before it dries.



Nope, no chimney. Are the sealing footpads that come with (or are sold separately) some of the tripods not good enough?


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *penner42* /forum/post/19236604
> 
> 
> I'm on a corner, so this would be out on the street side of the house, and I don't really want that.



Could you run a pole all the way to the ground, like this?


----------



## penner42




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19237220
> 
> 
> Could you run a pole all the way to the ground, like this?



My concern with that would be that it wouldn't get enough support with that much of the mast over the house. Also, it's very near (inches from) water pipes for my irrigation system down there. I could do it.


Thinking about doing it there, burying a 5 gallon bucket and filling it with concrete for the base. Another standoff bracket or two would be nice, too, though it looks like finding one the right length might be tricky.


Edit to add: The antennas need to get over the peak of the roof, because they have to be facing across the house. Here's a pic of where that would be and which way the antenna needs to face:


----------



## arxaw

Perhaps you could use one of these and guy wires to help stabilize it.


----------



## preludejtstyle

I am in need of a little assistance. I am currently using a set of old rabbit ears in my attic. Significantly better in the attic than in the room, but I obviously need a better antenna. I am working on that, but it probably won't be for at least another day or two.


Anyone got any suggestions as to where I should put this thing? Or better yet, what type of antenna would work best in this area? The attic is covered in fiberglass insulation, which I hate. So I can't get to the very corners of the attic, but i figured the middle was a better area anyways.


Here are a couple photos after it fell down. I had it mounted "slightly" better.

Attachment 186590 
Attachment 186591 
Attachment 186592 


It's just a normal attic, nothing special. In the middle of a renovation, so I have easier access.


----------



## arxaw

Easy way to install a rabbit ear/loop antenna: Take the end off of one end of a big cardboard box, stick the cardboard box (open end down) into the insulation. Set the rabbit ear/loop antenna on top of that.


Other antennas can easily be mounted hanging down from the roof rafters.


For suggestions for a better antenna, enter your address here. Copy the link to your results page and paste it back in this thread. Your address will not show on the results page.


----------



## preludejtstyle

 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a36293ba17d778 


DTV Antenna

Type Call Sign Channel Network City, State Live

Date Compass

Heading Miles

From RF

Channel

* yellow

uhf WKEF-DT 22.1 ABC DAYTON, OH 358° 11.4 51

* yellow

uhf WPTD-DT 16.1 PBS DAYTON, OH 359° 11.1 16

* yellow

uhf WDTN-DT 2.1 NBC DAYTON, OH 357° 11.0 50

* yellow

uhf WRGT-DT 45.1 FOX DAYTON, OH 358° 11.4 30

* yellow

uhf WBDT-DT 26.1 CW SPRINGFIELD, OH 358° 11.4 26

* yellow

uhf WKOI-DT 39.1 TBN RICHMOND, IN 267° 22.1 39

* yellow

uhf WHIO-DT 7.1 CBS DAYTON, OH 0° 12.0 41

* green

uhf WSTR-DT 64.1 MNT CINCINNATI, OH 218° 29.5 33

* red

uhf WLWT-DT 5.1 NBC CINCINNATI, OH 213° 34.0 35

* red

vhf WCPO-DT 9.1 ABC CINCINNATI, OH 212° 33.4 10

* red

vhf WKRC-DT 12.1 CBS CINCINNATI, OH 211° 34.0 12

blue

uhf WWRD-LP 55 FMN CENTERVILLE, OH 88° 4.4 55

* blue

uhf WXIX-DT 19.1 FOX NEWPORT, KY 215° 34.8 29

blue

uhf WBQC-LP 25 IND CINCINNATI, OH 212° 33.4 25

blue

uhf W36DG 61 TBN CINCINNATI, OH 217° 28.6 61

blue

uhf WRCX-LP 40 ION DAYTON, OH 358° 10.6 40

* blue

uhf WPTO-DT 14.1 PBS OXFORD, OH 215° 34.8 28

blue

uhf WOTH-CA 38 IND CINCINNATI, OH 212° 33.4 38

* blue

uhf WCET-DT 48.1 PBS CINCINNATI, OH 213° 34.0 34

* violet

uhf WOTH-LD 47.1 IND CINCINNATI, OH 212° 33.4 20


----------



## deltaguy

preludejtstyle,


While this is not your attic solution for reception, I would experiment, not in the attic, with a classic bowtie. You have channels from several directions. If the stations you really care about can be had with a single aim in the attic, you might be able to receive other green level TVFool stations with the bowtie. It would be a bullpen antenna. You'd only need to connect it when necessary.


----------



## arxaw

preludejtstyle,

Check your PMs.


----------



## PCTools

I bought 8 (used) CM4251's from the local installer, and found out they did not perform as well as the 91XG. I cleaned and polished that bad boy and put a light screen on the back. All it did was catch wind...


It could have been related to my environment, but I scrapped the idea of using those parabolics and went with a yagi. Also, the 9032 was inferior to the 91XG.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/19217633
> 
> 
> That's a good move. Tilting a VHF antenna doesn't work the same as UHF. A VHF antenna reacts with the ground in front of it to create a up-tilted pattern. You control the amount of up-tilt by raising or lowering the antenna. An antenna close to the ground has more uptilt than and antenna that is higher. An antenna at a specific height will have more uptilt on the lower VHF channels than the upper VHF channels.
> 
> 
> The ground gain will be 6 db with flat ground in front of the antenna. Depending on terrain, your antenna may work better when installed lower.



Good points...unfortunately, I don't think we have adequate tools available to

analyze/predict how much ground-bounce will impact the antenna, given the

diffuse nature of the intervening terrrain and local ground clutter (your neighbors),

so it's difficult to predict what will happen in a particular situation.....TVFool and

other Propagation Prediction Programs include a ground-bounce estimate, but

it's pretty much one size fits all and isn't very accurate.....


What we can do is use 4nec2 (et al) with antenna structures defined at a particular

height above a ground plane (perfect or lossy). BUT, the actual antenna pattern

will be heavily influenced by the nearby metallic (and semi-metallic) structures

contained in nearby houses, trees and whatever else is in the neighborhood.....

All of which is possible to define in 4nec2 (et al) until you run out of wire segments.

[But you'll need the NEC4 Engine to model losses through trees and other structures.]

The small upward tilt above a perfect ground plane you mentioned above will no doubt

be overwhelmed by all of these other "real world" factors.....


So when comparing antennas, we should primarily use FREE SPACE modeling....


BTW: Televes bragged that DAT-45 & DAT-75 UHF antennas (with three stacked Yagi structures)

have a vertical NULL, which will CANCEL the ground bounce, which they considered MULTIPATH....

cuz it degrades Analog TV. It might also be a problem for DTV, since some (many?) equalizers

have a problem with short-delay echos.......or it might actually HELP DTV reception, if the

equalizer can coherently sum the signals....


----------



## PCTools

Hollands,


With a new water tower being installed less than 1500 ft. from my home, I was wondering if I could catch the reflected signals off the tower?


That is, mount an antenna on a 10 ft pole (angled) at the water tower edges, in hopes of catching scatter. After all, an egg shape up 200ft in your back yard might be a good collector.


What do you think, or am I just thinking this could be a myth?


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/19246356
> 
> 
> Good points...unfortunately, I don't think we have adequate tools available to
> 
> analyze/predict how much ground-bounce will impact the antenna, given the
> 
> diffuse nature of the intervening terrrain and local ground clutter (your neighbors),
> 
> so it's difficult to predict what will happen in a particular situation.....TVFool and
> 
> other Propagation Prediction Programs include a ground-bounce estimate, but
> 
> it's pretty much one size fits all and isn't very accurate.....



As a matter of curiosity, would a spectrum analyzer or other piece of test equipment (not sure what - Vector analyzer?) provide the definitive answer on signal levels? However, what about multipath? What could help there?


BTW I borrowed a spectrum analyzer from work and its amazing how much RF is out there.

Cheers


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/19246593
> 
> 
> With a new water tower being installed less than 1500 ft. from my home, I was wondering if I could catch the reflected signals off the tower?



Try entering the location and height of the water tower into TVfool. Compare it with your own location. I doubt that there would be that much difference.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Satcom15* /forum/post/19248985
> 
> 
> As a matter of curiosity, would a spectrum analyzer or other piece of test equipment



Spectrum analyzer is perfect. The signal level will vary with bandwidth, so you need a correction factor to get absolute signal level.


10*log receiver bandwidth/5.5


A normal 8VSB signal looks like the hair on Bart Simpson's head. Multipath will show up as notches and/or tilts in the spectrum display.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/19250735
> 
> 
> Spectrum analyzer is perfect....
> 
> 
> A normal 8VSB signal looks like the hair on Bart Simpson's head. Multipath will show up as notches and/or tilts in the spectrum display.



Like so:











The one on the left is going to fail processing. The one on the right isn't too bad (only about 5 dB peak to valley) and should decode easily on almost anything.


----------



## preludejtstyle




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/19241987
> 
> 
> preludejtstyle,
> 
> 
> While this is not your attic solution for reception, I would experiment, not in the attic, with a classic bowtie. You have channels from several directions. If the stations you really care about can be had with a single aim in the attic, you might be able to receive other green level TVFool stations with the bowtie. It would be a bullpen antenna. You'd only need to connect it when necessary.



I know so little, i'm sorry. What's a bullpen antenna? Google image wasn't very helpful. I would prefer to just go to partsexpress and pick one up. Is there one from their you can suggest?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19242484
> 
> 
> preludejtstyle,
> 
> Check your PMs.



You rock. Thank you. I found the RCA model you suggested at a local store, however I want to know if there are better choices? I don't mind spending upwards of $75 on one. That RCA one was only $50 at partsexpress.


----------



## deltaguy

preludejtstyle,


Unless you plan on installing a rotor, I doubt any antenna you choose will receive all of the stations that are possible indoors for your location. Thus, the idea of a backup antenna. You could also put multiple antennas in the attic for multiple directions. It depends on what channels are important to you.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *preludejtstyle* /forum/post/19253532
> 
> 
> What's a bullpen antenna?



It's a baseball analogy. Just like a team calls in a pitcher from the bullpen only when they really need him to replace the starting pitcher, so you would hook up the "bullpen antenna" in place of your regular antenna only when you really need it to watch some station the regular antenna can't get.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *preludejtstyle* /forum/post/19253532
> 
> 
> ... I found the RCA model you suggested at a local store, however I want to know if there are better choices?



Spending more won't likely get you any better reception. You should get a lot of stations if you follow the aiming procedure I mentioned previously.


The biggest improvement might be had by mounting the antenna outdoors, not in the attic.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/19246593
> 
> 
> Hollands,
> 
> 
> With a new water tower being installed less than 1500 ft. from my home, I was wondering if I could catch the reflected signals off the tower?
> 
> 
> That is, mount an antenna on a 10 ft pole (angled) at the water tower edges, in hopes of catching scatter. After all, an egg shape up 200ft in your back yard might be a good collector.
> 
> 
> What do you think, or am I just thinking this could be a myth?



Only way to know is to try it...


If the signal illuminating the water tower is strong enough, it just might overcome

the losses that occur in the reflected and/or diffracted signal.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19255293
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> The biggest improvement might be had by mounting the antenna outdoors, not in the attic.



Hi,


My HOA replaced the asphalt on wood shingles roof this summer.


When the attic was open I saw NO improvement!


After the new roof was on my VHF antenna got nothing (Two VHF channels in use) and my UHF antenna got very little, the stations I could get came in from strange directions.


New roof is Asphalt on particle board with metallic foil on the inside (Faraday cage).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post18777570 


The HOA finally had heard of the FCC and two homeowners had put up CM4228HD's. The HOA manager gave me a copy of one of the successful applications and I could not fill mine out fast enough.


Reception is now great with two amps ( Eight tuners plus one downstairs) and the CM4228HD with it's lobes close to 90 degrees allows me to get the stations to the North East. North West is the direction of Sutro and Bruno.


So outdoors is better, I dreamed for a long time about the CM4228HD. But not perfect, one station from Sutro has multipath and is received on a bookshelf antenna.


SHF


----------



## goldrich




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1* /forum/post/19259535
> 
> 
> The HOA manager gave me a copy of one of the successful applications and I could not fill mine out fast enough.



Your HOA made you submit an application prior to installing your antenna? WHY?????????????


----------



## arxaw

They can't even do *that.*


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19261001
> 
> 
> They can't even do *that.*



No they can't, but there are practical considerations for those in HOAs. You can shove the FCC regs into the Board President's face and put up your big rig on the roof, but in some cases there could be repercussions. Maybe the board ignores you on future issues, neighbors might start to ostracise you socially, and in some extreme cases, vandalism could be a problem. The board might suddenly start finding all sorts of other violations to charge you with.

It's usually better to go ahead and jump through thier hoops, as long as doing so leads to the installation you're entitled to. In other words, let them pretend they still have the power, even though that power has been superceded by congress.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/19262815
> 
> 
> ... You can shove the FCC regs into the Board President's face and put up your big rig on the roof, but in some cases there could be repercussions...



No, you put the antenna up and let them come to you. Then, you shove the FCC rules in whomever's face.


Personally, I have no desire to live in such places.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19263201
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> Personally, I have no desire to live in such places.



Hi,


Little did I know that the development would look the same after 37 years, so sterile.


The satellite dish next door moved four times before the manager accepted it. She has been the manager for as long as I can remember and I moved in as the last homeowner in phase one.


I am one of the very few homeowners that has shade, the original tree was cut down when it grew to a size that shaded my patio. I expected it's replacement to be a shrub. But they did replace it with one that grew much faster that I expected and the two I planted now have grown so that my patio has great shade. (And I save on AC.)


It's all because of the CC&R you must accept when buying in.


SHF


----------



## Holbs

i have got to say.... i'm very very glad i stumbled across this AVS forum tonite.

I, like thousands of others, am ditching cable tv (charter). I, like thousands of others, went out to Best Buy and bought a standard looking omni-directional indoor antenna for $59 thinking it would exactly replace the quality of reception and the majority of local channels. When i was only able to receive FOX, PBS, and a couple lesser channels (no NBC, no ABC, no CBS), i was mystified. And this is where GOOGLE is my friend. I tackled 'researching' Over The Air antenna's like i do with building my own PC's. If you GOOGLE something typical as "HDTV antenna", you get thousands of sites that give their own review of what they are selling, so that you purchase some BillyBob indoor omni-directional antenna that will even pick up channels from Hawaii. Around page 8 or 9, there is the AVS forum. And i know forums are where real people come together to share their experiences with this or that.


I spent the last 5 hours reading almost 200pages here, learning this and that. Tho, i'm nowhere near the antenna IQ as holl_ands or Tower Guy... i know alot more than i did 6 hours ago.


To those that put the effort into this forum with their experiences, we (the antenna numskulls) thank you.


I know now not to even bother and waste time with omni-directional antenna's unless you live 5feet from a broadcast tower, in-roof directional antenna with my stucco / tile roof, just buying any antenna by reading the box (ex: the SUX2000 antenna that can pick up hawaii stations).


I have learned (tho i wish more spoke of it) grounding of outdoor mounted antenna (it was a good point in saying if fire happens because of improper outdoor antenna grounding, your insurance may not cover any loss).


I have come down to 2 antenna's to choose from spoken very highly here:

Channel Master 4228HD 8-bay HDTV/UHF TV Antenna

Winegard HD 7694P High Definition VHF/UHF HDHD769 Antenna

*both through Solid Signal website*

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a36298e9e541a4 


i will shoot first, for a simple installation: install antenna roughly 20' high attached to side of the house with short pole and clamps, >50' of RG6, directly to just 1 tv. i will have to re-read later about amplification, splitters, etc.... but i think i'm aok with the simple setup for time being.


I guess my only lingering question i have not read about: if i go for the directional antenna and point it do south to the channel line of 7-23... is the angle good enough to also pick up the channel lines of 44-49 and 20-39 which look to be 15degrees off direct south, each way if i wanted to one day go for those channels? Or because they are off by so many degrees, i would have to look into a rotor (or rotator ... haha... i read those posts too)?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I have come down to 2 antenna's to choose from spoken very highly here:
> 
> Channel Master 4228HD 8-bay HDTV/UHF TV Antenna
> 
> Winegard HD 7694P High Definition VHF/UHF HDHD769 Antenna



Since your practical available stations (above 2 NM) are vhf-hi and uhf, go for the HD 7694P. (Good build it yourself antennas for your location would be a SBGH with NARODs or a 4 bay bowtie with a 28" - 36" wide reflector. )



> Quote:
> I guess my only lingering question i have not read about: if i go for the directional antenna and point it do south to the channel line of 7-23... is the angle good enough to also pick up the channel lines of 44-49 and 20-39 which look to be 15degrees off direct south,



Yes, and thats another reason besides price not to get a very high gain antenna. High gain antennas tend to have narrower beamwidths.

Basically in your case, I would aim the antenna about 161 degrees true (147 degrees magnetic). Channels 44 and 20 are so strong you dont have to worry about them.


----------



## Dave Loudin

From your readings, I think you missed one detail... your NBC and ABC affiliates are broadcasting on channels 7 and 8, so you need an antenna that has real gain in the high VHF band. The CM 4228HD does *not* have the gain you need in that band. You are much better off with the Winegard.


You should do OK without a rotator. The Fox and MyNetwork stations are _very_ strong, and the PBS station has a fairly strong signal, too. The 7694P has the beamwidth to pick up those stations easily while pointed straight south. I'm leaning towards recommending the 7696P, as that will ensure reliable reception of RF 7 and 8 and having just wide enough beamwidth to catch the other stations.


Good luck!


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Holbs* /forum/post/19266136
> 
> 
> Tho, i'm nowhere near the antenna IQ as holl_ands or Tower Guy...



Awwh, gee, thanks.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Holbs* /forum/post/19266136
> 
> 
> i have got to say.... i'm very very glad i stumbled across this AVS forum tonite.



You found the right place. I was where you are now 6 months ago. Now, thanks to all of the helpful guys here, I've got the best antenna system in town, and I'm designing/building/buying/tinkering with TV antennas all the time.

You're ablsolutely right, the forums are where the good information is (because no one here is in it for the money).


----------



## franklyfred

Just got the Channel Master 4228HD up placed as close as possible to the roof top. Aimed it in the general direction of Monterey and had all the channels on the first try did not had to cut the 100 ft coax also. Thanks to all on this forum.


----------



## arxaw

franklyfred,

Glad it worked for you, and thanks for posting back with your results.


----------



## Holbs

in regards to lightning protection...


i will of course ground the winegard i ordered on thursday. the post as well.

but the coax line itself. since it will be directly heading to my 50" plasma (til i get 2nd tv for this or that, then i'll look into splitters, if need amp, etc), is there lighting protection modules for co-ax?


i'm a telephone guy (install business telephone systems, voice/data cables, playing with conduits, etc). they make all kinds of lighting protection fuses for telecomm side of things. but i've never see protection for coax.


----------



## arxaw

Just use a coax grounding block and ground to the same building/electrical ground that the antenna mast should also be grounded to. But being in the telecom business, you already know about grounding.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Holbs* /forum/post/19281352
> 
> 
> in regards to lightning protection...
> 
> but i've never see protection for coax.



Google the "Surgender SE-1K" or the TII "210MF75F22521" or "212FF75F225-21".


----------



## LithOTA

I have an inside track to rescue these from certain death by a backhoe. Can any of you tell what they are?


----------



## Ennui

The top one looks like the Winegard HD7015. Includes low VHF. Useless these days.


----------



## 300ohm

I believe the bottom one was Radio Shacks top uhf model, U-120 catalog number 15-1662 with a claimed range of 120 miles, heh. IIRC, the specs were like 15 - 16 dbi tops.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/19297666
> 
> 
> The top one looks like the Winegard HD7015. Includes low VHF. Useless these days.



Thank You! I checked on SummitSource and I think it is a 7015. I would recycle the parts for my DIY builds.


But that UHF Yagi intrigues me...it's a big SOB, and that big corner reflector might help me with a particularly troublesome WYIN on RF17. There is a label on it, but I can't get into a position to read it until I take it down.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/19298059
> 
> 
> I believe the bottom one was Radio Shacks top uhf model, U-120 catalog number 15-1662 with a claimed range of 120 miles, heh. IIRC, the specs were like 15 - 16 dbi tops.



Oh, so that's a good one! I think I'll use up a favor to get permission to take it. Thank you 300.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/19297666
> 
> 
> Includes low VHF. Useless these days.



Depends on where you live. Some places still have lowband VHF chs. Fortunately, not in our area. High VHF is bad enough.


The lowband portion would make a good FM antenna.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> But that UHF Yagi intrigues me...it's a big SOB, and that big corner reflector might help me with a particularly troublesome WYIN on RF17.



Maybe, and probably better than most antennas. But keep in mind, corner reflectors of that era got the highest gain on the high channels above 60.



> Quote:
> U-120 UHF Antenna
> 
> (150-1662) Specifications Faxback Doc. # 40444
> 
> 
> Avg. Gain: .............................................. 11.7 on UHF Only
> 
> 
> F/B Ratio: ............................................................ 20
> 
> 
> 1/2 Power: ..................................................... 27 Degree
> 
> 
> Specifications are typical; individual units might vary. Specifications are
> 
> subject to change and improvement without notice.



At least on the official Radio Shack specs, the figures quoted do look to be conservative, and look to be in dBd. Add 2.15 for the dBi number.


You can find it in Radio Shacks 1988 catalog, page 103 here :
http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/catalogs/1988/


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/19298116
> 
> 
> But that UHF Yagi intrigues me...it's a big SOB, and that big corner reflector might help me with a particularly troublesome WYIN on RF17. There is a label on it, but I can't get into a position to read it until I take it down.



Be careful, the blue plastic pieces are quite fragile after being outside for all those years. I broke one of them when re-using a U-120 at a new location. It was a decent antenna for near fringe areas.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Be careful, the blue plastic pieces are quite fragile after being outside for all those years.



Yes, same here on other Antenna Craft antennas, which Radio Shack antennas are. You may want to reinforce those pieces with some fiberglass cloth and epoxy.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/19301301
> 
> 
> Yes, same here on other Antenna Craft antennas, which Radio Shack antennas are. You may want to reinforce those pieces with some fiberglass cloth and epoxy.



Thank you for all of the info. I think I had that Radio shack catalog back in 1988!

It's way too big for a cantilevered boom mount on my mast. Can a Yagi like this be mounted at the balance point (like a 9032) or will it screw it up if the mast is ahead of the reflector and the dipole?


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/19304196
> 
> 
> Thank you for all of the info. I think I had that Radio shack catalog back in 1988!
> 
> It's way too big for a cantilevered boom mount on my mast. Can a Yagi like this be mounted at the balance point (like a 9032) or will it screw it up if the mast is ahead of the reflector and the dipole?



For sure, it won't work as well when mounted that way but it is hard to say what the effect will be without trying it.


----------



## 300ohm

Im going to guess that it may already be at its balance point. If not, the balance point will probably be in the middle of the two dipole driven elements. Thats not a good place to have a mast.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/19306535
> 
> 
> Im going to guess that it may already be at its balance point. If not, the balance point will probably be in the middle of the two dipole driven elements. Thats not a good place to have a mast.



I think the balance point has to be right in the dipole area- otherwise, it wouldn't need the second, short boom at the rear to transfer the upward force (applied to the back end of the main boom) to the mast.

So, when a factory engineer designs a Yagi like this, is the mount style incorporated into the design from the beginning? In other words, do they specify cantilever or balanced mount, and then take that into account as they design/tweak/test it?

If it wouldn't drastically degrade performance, I would like to perform some surgery on the booms; if I remove the short one and saw the back of the long one off, the balance point would be moved farther forward. The only problem is, the directors look very closely spaced (probably for channels 70-83?) and there might not be enough room for a clamp to fit between them. I suppose I could use the short boom to create a lower support, similar to a 91XG.

Am I crazy?


----------



## Ennui

Here is the way Winegard did it with the HD9095 UHF antenna. (I modified the YA-1713 VHF antenna mount.) My goal here was to keep the bird s... off my patio cover.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/19307440
> 
> 
> Here is the way Winegard did it with the HD9095 UHF antenna. (I modified the YA-1713 VHF antenna mount.) My goal here was to keep the bird s... off my patio cover.



That's funny you should post that picture. I'm going to ask Santa for a high-VHF Yagi to go with my 9022, and here you have a very similar setup already. Your 9095 is a bit better than my 9022, but I need my rotor, so balanced booms are needed. I really like the 1713; how is the performance with this combination? And what is your vertical spacing?


----------



## LithOTA

The more I think about that old U-120, the less I like it. Going all the way to 83 means it would be crap from 14 to 40 compared to my 9022. And the plastic parts that get brittle are probably going to break as soon as I remove it. It's not like good antennas are outrageously expensive (91XG, 9032, 4228), so...maybe it's not worth the effort?

Unless someone else wants it? I would be willing to rescue it if it's rare and someone out there could benefit from it, or like to collect old ones.


----------



## notanarborist

I know nothing about antennas, but recently cancelled my overpriced but worthless cable service. My wife would like it if we could pick up some channels, though.

Could somebody help with an antenna recommendation, here is a Signal analysis for my location.


Thanks.


----------



## arxaw

notanarborist,

This outdoor antenna should work for you. It is only this big and comes with a mounting bracket.


Using a compass, aim the antenna ~145° SE. Then, scan for local OverTheAir digital channels on your digital TV's channel menu. That should get all your major broadcast networks and whatever subchannels they offer.


----------



## notanarborist

Thanks for the quick reply. That setup is cheaper than 1 month of basic cable with slowspeed broadband through our only cable company.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/19307703
> 
> 
> That's funny you should post that picture. I'm going to ask Santa for a high-VHF Yagi to go with my 9022, and here you have a very similar setup already. Your 9095 is a bit better than my 9022, but I need my rotor, so balanced booms are needed. I really like the 1713; how is the performance with this combination? And what is your vertical spacing?



I am using a Yaesu 450XL rotator on these antennas. They are very light (the 1713 is only 3 lbs) compared to the ham antennas I was using on this setup (over 80 lbs).


Vertical spacing is about 4 feet.


I am very pleased with the operation and reception.


The advantage of the HD9095 is that it has an input built into the antenna for a VHF antenna connection.


I am also using a WG 8275 preamp on these.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/19309184
> 
> 
> I am using a Yaesu 450XL rotator on these antennas. They are very light (the 1713 is only 3 lbs) compared to the ham antennas I was using on this setup (over 80 lbs).



Oh Ok, that's a rotor in the picture- those must be pretty heavy-duty compared to my Phillips CM clone. But I use a double-mast setup with a bearing (one mast is for support, the other rotates).

The 9022 also has posts for a VHF antenna, but I would have to use twin-lead, which I'm not familiar with. I'll use a UVSJ, or the CM7777's separate inputs.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> My goal here was to keep the bird s... off my patio cover.



You could also try a plastic owl on the 1713, fairly effective.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/19309559
> 
> 
> Oh Ok, that's a rotor in the picture- those must be pretty heavy-duty compared to my Phillips CM clone. But I use a double-mast setup with a bearing (one mast is for support, the other rotates).
> 
> The 9022 also has posts for a VHF antenna, but I would have to use twin-lead, which I'm not familiar with. I'll use a UVSJ, or the CM7777's separate inputs.



I put this up some 15 years ago. Took the ham antenna down about 5 years ago.


The lower section of pipe is two inch heavy wall steel. This is where the ham antennas were mounted. The smaller diameter "extension" was put in so I could mount a TV antenna above the ham antenna.


The connections on the HD9095 are all F coax connectors.


I have had a plastic owl up for 15 years on the patio itself but I don't think it has helped much.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I have had a plastic owl up for 15 years on the patio itself but I don't think it has helped much.



If it stays still in the same place, the birds get used to it. Tie a string to it and let the wind blow on it.

Rubber snakes are another option if moved frequently. Mylar strips work, as do old AOL or other cds dvds drilled and mounted with string. Nothing works 100%, but these methods have helped to save some of my berry crops, heh.


----------



## jtbell

You could put the owl on a second rotator.


----------



## LithOTA

Or get a trained owl? You could teach it to go on the neighbor's patio.


----------



## mceagle555

Completely new to antennas, but have been on AVS for quite some time. I'll be closing on my new home in a week and I'm ditching Dish Network due to poor service and pinching pennies. Any recommendations on a antennas?


All of the major stations are located in a city 40-50 miles away. Most people in my city are able to pick up the major 4 stations with rabbit ears.


I would prefer to mount in the attic, but I can also install on my chimney.


TV Fool analysis: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a36250884b512f


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mceagle555* /forum/post/19315515
> 
> 
> Completely new to antennas, but have been on AVS for quite some time. I'll be closing on my new home in a week and I'm ditching Dish Network due to poor service and pinching pennies. Any recommendations on a antennas?



That depends on your desire to get WBRA via OTA. I can't imagine it will be on low-VHF for much longer.

That station aside, a Winegard 7694 or 7695 would be ideal.


----------



## mceagle555




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/19316353
> 
> 
> That depends on your desire to get WBRA via OTA. I can't imagine it will be on low-VHF for much longer.
> 
> That station aside, a Winegard 7694 or 7695 would be ideal.



With the Winegard 7694....would I be able to mount it in the attic? (Cedar siding)


Are there any other options I should be looking at?


Someone mentioned an RCA: http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out...6756551&sr=1-1


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mceagle555* /forum/post/19316820
> 
> 
> Are there any other options I should be looking at?


 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ef=oss_product


----------



## mceagle555




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *klandry7* /forum/post/19317161
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ef=oss_product



That at the Winegard seem to be pretty different to me...what am I missing? What are the benefits of one over the other? I read the descriptions on Amazon as well as the reviews. Both seem to be good, just trying to figure out what would be best in an attic environment.


I REALLY appreciate all the help guys! Can't wait to hear more opinions.


----------



## The Hound

Just be aware that none of the antennas mentioned so far will pick up your PBS station.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *The Hound* /forum/post/19317878
> 
> 
> Just be aware that none of the antennas mentioned so far will pick up your PBS station.



He has a second PBS that's on RF11. And that other one on 3 probably won't be there for much longer- low-band's days are numbered.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mceagle555* /forum/post/19316820
> 
> 
> With the Winegard 7694....would I be able to mount it in the attic? (Cedar siding)
> 
> 
> Are there any other options I should be looking at?
> 
> 
> Someone mentioned an RCA: http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out...6756551&sr=1-1



That depends on the size of the attic, and the access to it. I've seen attics that could house a big all-band like a Winegard 8200. Others, like mine, are severely limited by the size of the hatch and the design of the structural framing.

The RCA 751/EZHD is a good antenna, but in an attic it might not be able to get those VHF-highs too well. The 7694 has 9-10 dB of gain from 7-13 and over 10 throughout UHF, which beats the 751 by several dBs. I've learned the hard way that if it must go in the attic, you need to go bigger to avoid annoying dropouts.


----------



## Dave Loudin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> He has a second PBS that's on RF11. And that other one on 3 probably won't be there for much longer- low-band's days are numbered.



Don't count on that at all. WBRA doesn't have the money to toss around like that.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mceagle555* /forum/post/19315515
> 
> 
> All of the major stations are located in a city 40-50 miles away. Most people in my city are able to pick up the major 4 stations with rabbit ears.
> 
> 
> I would prefer to mount in the attic, but I can also install on my chimney.



I would recommend the Winegard HD 7082P mounted on the chimney. Aim it at 252°.


If you have many TV sets or find that NBC is unreliable, use a preamp such as the HDP-269.


----------



## mceagle555

I'm absolutely blown away by the kindness of people on the forums.


I move in the house in a few weeks and will make the decision then. You guys are the best!


Let me know if there is anything else I should be considering.


----------



## arxaw

Is WBRA an absolutely must-have station? If not, it can greatly affect antenna selection.


Any station still using channel 3 is ridiculous.


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19321889
> 
> 
> Any station still using channel 3 is ridiculous.



For those curious, here is a listing of VHF-Lo stations from W9WI. Not sure how current it is since it says last update Oct 2006. Anyone have a more up to date list?


Cheers

http://www.w9wi.com/newweb/articles/lowbanddtv.html


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/forum/antennas-f3.html



Go to Trip's website - rabbitears.info - and download Falcon_77's spreadsheet. You can then sort by real RF channel. Last time I checked, it was around 38 full-power stations that were on low VHF.


Here's the most recent list, sans formatting:


7/15/2010


ST Area City of License (if other) Call Sign Netw. (Primary) Vir. CH RF CH

NV LAS VEGAS KSNV NBC 3.1 2

ME BANGOR WLBZ NBC 2.1 2

CO GRAND JUNCTION KREX CBS 5.1 2

SD RAPID CITY KOTA ABC 3.1 2

NE NORTH PLATTE KNOP NBC 2.1 2

WY JACKSON KJWY NBC 2.1 2

UT SALT LAKE CITY PRICE KCBU day 3.1 3

VA ROANOKE WBRA PBS 15.1 3

MT MILES CITY KYUS NBC 3.1 3

SD NORTHEAST SD FLORENCE KDLO CBS 3.1 3

CA EUREKA KIEM NBC 3.1 3

FL KEY WEST WSBS ind. 22.1 3

NV CENTRAL NV ELY KVNV NBC 3.1 3

IL DAVENPORT ROCK ISLAND WHBF CBS 4.1 4

NE LINCOLN SUPERIOR KSNB FOX 4.1 4

TX SAN ANTONIO FREDERICKSBURG KCWX CW 2.1 5

TN NASHVILLE WTVF CBS 5.1 5

MI GRAND RAPIDS KALAMAZOO WGVK PBS 52.1 5

TN MEMPHIS WMC NBC 5.1 5

OH TOLEDO WLMB rlg 40.1 5

IA DES MOINES AMES WOI ABC 5.1 5

VA JOHNSON CITY BRISTOL WCYB NBC 5.1 5

WV CLARKSBURG WESTON WDTV CBS 5.1 5

NE LINCOLN HASTINGS KHAS NBC 5.1 5

OR MEDFORD KOBI NBC 5.1 5

MI MARQUETTE CALUMET WBKP CW 5.1 5

SD RAPID CITY LEAD KIVV FOX 5.1 5

MT BUTTE KXLF CBS 4.1 5

MT GLENDIVE KXGN CBS 5.1 5

PA PHILADELPHIA WPVI ABC 6.1 6

CT HARTFORD NEW HAVEN WEDY PBS 65.1 6

NY ALBANY SCHENECTADY WRGB CBS 6.1 6

AL BIRMINGHAM TUSCALOOSA WUOA a-one 23.1 6

GA AUGUSTA WRENS WCES PBS 20.1 6

GA ALBANY PELHAM WABW PBS 14.1 6

KS GARDEN CITY ENSIGN KBSD CBS 6.1 6

NE NORTH PLATTE HAYES CENTER KWNB ABC 6.1 6

MT BUTTE KTVM NBC 6.1 6


----------



## mceagle555




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19321889
> 
> 
> Is WBRA an absolutely must-have station? If not, it can greatly affect antenna selection.
> 
> 
> Any station still using channel 3 is ridiculous.



Nope...all I really care about is NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX. Don't care about WBRA...


----------



## arxaw

The Winegard HD7694P should work for you, unless you have:

Metal or tile roof.

Foil-backed radiant barrier on the underside of the roof decking (faces the attic and easily visible).

Foil backed wall insulation.

If you have any of the above, you'll probably have to put the antenna outside for reliable reception.


----------



## mceagle555




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19326346
> 
> 
> The Winegard HD7694P should work for you, unless you have:
> 
> Metal or tile roof.
> 
> Foil-backed radiant barrier on the underside of the roof decking (faces the attic and easily visible).
> 
> Foil backed wall insulation.
> 
> If you have any of the above, you'll probably have to put the antenna outside for reliable reception.



Sounds good! I'll probably give the Winegard HD7694P a try when I move into the house November 1.










Thanks everyone!


----------



## jink

Hello everyone.


We have recently cut off digital cable (finally!). I have been looking to pick up OTA digital but getting lost in the myriad of options for antennas. I started investigating DIY 4 Bay Kits (as well as from MAKE ). A DIY antenna + balun + pre amp should be the ticket.


Unfortunately, things aren't always that easy. The appearance of the antenna is of high regard to the significant other. She also wants to pick up FOX (a VHF-HI station). Mounting in an attic would be *awesome* as I can go with a larger antenna and have it look great on the outside of the house.


Our TV Fool Map:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a362a78f3db572 


We are mainly concerned with CBS, ABC, PBS, FOX (this is the big one). Attic mount would be nice, but I can also mount outside on chimney.


Would a commercial antenna such as the RCA ANT751 (outside) or the Channel master 4228HD (attic) be wise? Should I just DIY?


I appreciate any help with antennas... it's a sea of information!


----------



## arxaw

What are your house siding and roof made of? Do you have foil-backed insulation in the walls or on the underside of the roof decking, common in Fla?

(Outside the attic, an ANT751 should work fine.)



.


----------



## jink




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19329388
> 
> 
> What are your house siding and roof made of? Do you have foil-backed insulation in the walls or on the underside of the roof decking, common in Fla?
> 
> (Outside the attic, an ANT751 should work fine.)
> 
> 
> 
> .



That is a great question. The siding is wood. I am not sure of the status on the roof; the previous owners had roofing work done. Is there a quick and easy way to determine that?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jink* /forum/post/19329086
> 
> 
> Would a commercial antenna such as the RCA ANT751 (outside) or the Channel master 4228HD (attic) be wise?



The ANT 751 mounted on the side of the house should do fine. Attic mounted is harder to predict. The 4228 is designed for UHF, but FOX is on VHF. The 4228HD mounted in the attic would have a tough time with FOX.


As you consider the attic options, does the angle to the stations (288°) go through the shingles, or would it be aimed at the gable? (assuming that you don't have a hip roof) If gable, aluminum siding is a no-no as is foil-backed sheathing. In some cases you just have to try it.


----------



## arxaw

Look in the attic at the roof decking. If it looks like aluminum foil, you have a radiant barrier. If not, and you don't have a metal or tile roof, an attic antenna may work fine. But in the attic, I would try something with slightly more gain than the ANT751. Like a Winegard HD7694P.


----------



## jink




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19329706
> 
> 
> Look in the attic at the roof decking. If it looks like aluminum foil, you have a radiant barrier. If not, and you don't have a metal or tile roof, an attic antenna may work fine. But in the attic, I would try something with slightly more gain than the ANT751. Like a Winegard HD7694P.



I went up there and didn't see any aluminum foil nor any radiant barriers. I had been contemplating a radiant barrier over the insulation... would this affect my signal if I chose to attic mount?


I'll see if that 7694P will fit in the attic; it's a monster! If not, I'll go with the ANT751 outside.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/19329698
> 
> 
> The ANT 751 mounted on the side of the house should do fine. Attic mounted is harder to predict. The 4228 is designed for UHF, but FOX is on VHF. The 4228HD mounted in the attic would have a tough time with FOX.
> 
> 
> As you consider the attic options, does the angle to the stations (288°) go through the shingles, or would it be aimed at the gable? (assuming that you don't have a hip roof) If gable, aluminum siding is a no-no as is foil-backed sheathing. In some cases you just have to try it.



Mounting in the attic would be going through the shingles, almost directly through them. I understand your statement to just try it; wanted this forums opinions before jumping into deep water (and possibly buying a few antennas before getting results).


Sounds like two votes for outside mounting. My only troubles with outside mounting is running the cable inside. I read RG6 is the recommended coax to use for least signal loss. I saw that grounding should be done on the same electronic service panel . Is there anything else to keep in mind?



Thank you both for your informative replies, this helps me greatly!


----------



## hanesian

What is the best practices way to drill an opening for an RG6 cable to run from the attic to the outside? I would just run the cable on the outside of the house from there, but am not sure of the best way to drill into/out of the attic.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> What is the best practices way to drill an opening for an RG6 cable to run from the attic to the outside?



Run the cable to the eave overhang and then down the outside wall. The eave overhang material is usually thin and a standard drill bit will get though it. Drilling though the wall, youll need a long drill bit or a drill bit extension.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jink* /forum/post/19330374
> 
> 
> ...I had been contemplating a radiant barrier over the insulation... would this affect my signal if I chose to attic mount?



It would reflect the signal significantly, so it could make it worse or possibly better. It could even affect an outdoor install directly above it, but there is just no way to tell without trying.



> Quote:
> I'll see if that 7694P will fit in the attic; it's a monster! If not, I'll go with the ANT751 outside.



The 7694 really isn't that big and the elements aren't too wide, unlike old lowband VHF+UHF antennas.


Use RG6 coax and if you install outdoors, it must be grounded to meet code. Outdoor antennas can be painted to blend in with background (trees, etc.).


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I started investigating DIY 4 Bay Kits (as well as from MAKE). A DIY antenna + balun + pre amp should be the ticket.



Dont build the MAKE one, not enough gain or vhf-hi capabilities.


Either build a single bay GH with NARODs or an mclapp M4 with a 32 inch wide reflector.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hanesian* /forum/post/19330610
> 
> 
> What is the best practices way to drill an opening for an RG6 cable to run from the attic to the outside? I would just run the cable on the outside of the house from there, but am not sure of the best way to drill into/out of the attic.



I have always used the vents to rout wire out of the attic.


----------



## hanesian




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/19331059
> 
> 
> I have always used the vents to rout wire out of the attic.



Soffit vents or roof vents?


----------



## losers

Has anyone tried a vertical mount for a Circular Polarized channel. WOIO glitches alot. Canada has a channel on the same channel.

Thanks


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hanesian* /forum/post/19331692
> 
> 
> Soffit vents or roof vents?



Yes, whatever works. There is usually a screen that must be pierced to allow the cable to go through.


----------



## TheaterChad

I run the Channel Master 4228 in my attic, I ran a line of RG6 to my structured wiring panel, and installed an amplifier, and split the 4228 to 8 tv's perfectly, I receive all local available hd broadcasts with-out issue, works perfect!


Personally I'd rather install in the attic, with rotor for fine adjustment, from previous readings on local hd forums, indoor attic antennas have only so much range depending on the model, I've installed 6 of these set-ups for friends / family and so far everyone is happy!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> There is usually a screen that must be pierced to allow the cable to go through.



I personally would drill into the soffit and caulk afterwards. With a loose coax run, the cable could increase the hole in the screen over time allowing for insects to come in.


----------



## arxaw

An alternative is to use a closet (if there is one near the TV). Run the coax down through the closet ceiling and out the closet wall to the TV.


----------



## hanesian

Well, I've already run the RG6 from the equipment closet in the basement out to the back of the house, with enough cable to reach the attic. I just need to figure out how to get it _*into*_ the attic where I can have a bigger antenna.


I'm just not that familiar with the eave/soffit construction techniques. Is it as straight forward as drilling through the soffit and fishing the cable in? Isn't there a top plate or something that I'd have to go through as well? And if so, wouldn't I have to remove a portion of the soffit to see what I'm working with?










It seems odd that so many people say "pull a cable from your attic to ... wherever" but so little detail on _*how*_ to do that! So it must be easier than I am making it out to be (he said hopefully)!


----------



## whiteboy714

I'm considering these two antennas.
http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out...B5C/ref=sr_1_1 
http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-SS-30.../dp/B001DFZ5II 


I am 35 miles form the signal. Would either of these be a good choice? I live in bottom floor of two story apartment and cant mount anything on the roof.


----------



## arxaw

whiteboy714, please post a link to the TVFool page results for your address and we can suggest antennas, based on the results. Mileage is of little/no use for predicting reception.


Your address will *not* appear on the results page.


Also post what your building's exterior is made of (stone, brick, wood, etc.).


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I'm just not that familiar with the eave/soffit construction techniques. Is it as straight forward as drilling through the soffit and fishing the cable in? Isn't there a top plate or something that I'd have to go through as well?



OK, Ill try to explain.The rafters rest on the top plate of the walls, and the rafter ends (tails) extend over the house. The soffit is nailed to the rafter tails (after some nailers are put in to make the nailing surface level). There is generally no insulation or anything else between the soffit and the attic to allow for proper ventilation. Soffit material is generally thin plywood or vinyl or aluminum.










(picture from Home Time with Dean Johnson)


----------



## whiteboy714




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19335104
> 
> 
> whiteboy714, please post a link to the TVFool page results for your address and we can suggest antennas, based on the results. Mileage is of little/no use for predicting reception.
> 
> 
> Your address will *not* appear on the results page.
> 
> 
> Also post what your building's exterior is made of (stone, brick, wood, etc.).



Sweet thanks a lot man, hopefully I got what you wanted.


Also my building is stucco.


I was thinking maybe this antenna "RCA ANT751" attached to a normal wooden fence thats about 6' high.


Although it has a balcony directly above it not sure if that would hurt. And it will be pointing straight at another building thats about 20' away.


----------



## arxaw

If you're installing an antenna outside, most anything may work with your strong signals, and the ANT751 should work well. But you may have to point it in a different direction than North to get reliable reception, due to the building that's in the way. Impossible to tell until you try, though.


If considering indoor, indoor often does not work through stucco exteriors. The screen behind the stucco is a very good signal blocker.


----------



## hanesian




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/19336458
> 
> 
> OK, Ill try to explain.The rafters rest on the top plate of the walls, and the rafter ends (tails) extend over the house. The soffit is nailed to the rafter tails (after some nailers are put in to make the nailing surface level). There is generally no insulation or anything else between the soffit and the attic to allow for proper ventilation. Soffit material is generally thin plywood or vinyl or aluminum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (picture from Home Time with Dean Johnson)



Thanks 300! I was hoping for an answer like that. I'll push ahead as soon as I have the antenna ready. Thanks again!


----------



## 300ohm

Glad I could help. Im not a carpenter by trade, but once had a college summer job in a trailer factory in charge of building the framing. By the end of the summer, I was in charge of kitchen and bathroom cabinetry, a big step up. And if I do say so myself, I was excellent, heh.

Yes, and I also know how to frame a house.

And for some strange reason, Im also a Honeywell Energy Management Expert (2 week course) and a Certified Oil Burner Flame Retention Mechanic (2 day course). Life is funny.


----------



## whiteboy714




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19337922
> 
> 
> If you're installing an antenna outside, most anything may work with your strong signals, and the ANT751 should work well. But you may have to point it in a different direction than North to get reliable reception, due to the building that's in the way. Impossible to tell until you try, though.
> 
> 
> If considering indoor, indoor often does not work through stucco exteriors. The screen behind the stucco is a very good signal blocker.



Ok cool thanks man. I'm going to give it a go with that one. Appreciate the help.


----------



## JimboG

The chicken wire (or "poultry mesh" as Home Depot says) that we use for Southern California standard sprayed stucco is an almost perfect way to block VHF, UHF, and cell phone reception and transmission. Foil backed insulation, concrete roof tiles, chicken wire, and low emission coatings on modern double pane windows all do a great job of making a modern house into a near-perfect Farraday's Cage.










As much as an indoor antenna would increase wife acceptance factor and appease angry home owners associations, the laws of Maxwellian physics are mutually exclusive with many local building customs. Put a big honkin' ugly antenna as high up as possible, run low loss cabling from it, and use a good quality tuner and a low noise preamp if necessary, and let God sort 'em out!


----------



## whiteboy714




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimboG* /forum/post/19338790
> 
> 
> The chicken wire (or "poultry mesh" as Home Depot says) that we use for Southern California standard sprayed stucco is an almost perfect way to block VHF, UHF, and cell phone reception and transmission. Foil backed insulation, concrete roof tiles, chicken wire, and low emission coatings on modern double pane windows all do a great job of making a modern house into a near-perfect Farraday's Cage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As much as an indoor antenna would increase wife acceptance factor and appease angry home owners associations, the laws of Maxwellian physics are mutually exclusive with many local building customs. Put a big honkin' ugly antenna as high up as possible, run low loss cabling from it, and use a good quality tuner and a low noise preamp if necessary, and let God sort 'em out!



Whats low loss cabling?


----------



## arxaw

whiteboy714,

In your case, RG6 coax is fine.


----------



## fd611v

Must not be here.


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *whiteboy714* /forum/post/19339693
> 
> 
> Whats low loss cabling?




A good quality coaxial cable seeks to minimize the amount of signal lost during transmission. The better cables have a lower amount of insertion loss, the poorer quality cables drop (attenuate) signal power faster, usually as a function of increasing frequency.


I've been working this week on qualifying potential RG6 candidates so that we can include a 50' roll of coax in antenna boxes for a particular retail client. The client's budget doesn't include premium stuff such as Belden, so we're looking at samples that are within their budget and that are available for immediate shipment in 5K quantity.


A really quick benchmark for my evaluation is to check insertion loss (IL) at 700 MHZ. So far, Ive seen that our current 50' RG6 Low-Loss is the best of the bunch at only 2.2 dB IL (but the lead time for quantity 5K is too long) but I've seen other samples with an almost 8 dB(!) IL at the same frequency. More candidates are due in today so I'll be chained to the tracking generator and spectrum analyzer this afternoon.










Here's a plot of my first day's testing plus a plot of the "bottom of the barrel".


In the second plot, it was necessary to readjust the display from 1 to 2 dB per vertical division. The blue trace is a sample of our current cable overlaid on the candidate's plots.


----------



## ADTech

..and, for those who need to buy something today...


One of our staff went shopping today at Best Buy, Radio Shack, Lowes, and Home Depot to see what a "typical" consumer can purchase in a local store.


Overall, the stuff I tested was very good as shown by the following plot. The green trace was for a quad shield coax.


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimboG* /forum/post/19338790
> 
> 
> ... appease angry home owners associations, ...



Oh BTW, let's not forget earlier discussion on HOAs and FCC regulations that preclude HOA's from banning exterior antennas. Granted in the interest of getting along with the neighbors one should try to minimize the visual impact if that is a problem in the community. Personally I think a ham radio aluminum forest is a thing of beauty and in response to any question on a TV antenna installation I'd say: "Sure, put that antenna up as high as you want"







. Remember, reception trumps asthetics per FCC rules to accomodate your viewing enjoyment.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Satcom15* /forum/post/19341477
> 
> 
> Oh BTW, let's not forget earlier discussion on HOAs and FCC regulations that preclude HOA's from banning exterior antennas. ...



Hi,


One thing to remember is "WHO OWNS" the part of the building the antenna is to be attached to!


In my case I do not own the part of the building where my antenna is attached to. Thus I needed to get approval first.


I used the same installer that had installed three antennas before and knew how to satisfy the HOA manager so as to have no problems.


I now have my dream antenna (CM4228HD) and it is working great.


SHF


----------



## whiteboy714




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19339817
> 
> 
> whiteboy714,
> 
> In your case, RG6 coax is fine.



Ok thanks.


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1* /forum/post/19342212
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> 
> One thing to remember is "WHO OWNS" the part of the building the antenna is to be attached to!
> 
> 
> In my case I do not own the part of the building where my antenna is attached to. Thus I needed to get approval first.
> 
> 
> SHF



Hmmm, you bring up an interesting thought. I'm presuming you live in a townhouse or condo? It was my understanding that the FCC released a ruling on satellite dishes in apartment complexes at some point (that is: You can have a dish as long as its not a permanent installation unless approved by the owner/manager - can someone clarify?). That begs several questions:


1. Does it include OTA antennas or just DTH satellite antennas?

2. Is there a size restriction (i.e. no more than xx ft in diameter)?

3. What are the rules for condo's/townhouses? Do they differ from single family homes and are more in line with apartment rules?


Fortunately I live in an apt complex with direct line of sight to the transmitters on Cheyenne Mtn in Colo Spgs and rabbit ears work great.


BTW SHF, I grew up in Cupertino and went to school at SJSU. Grandma lived in SF (the Mission District - on Social Security no less! Of course that was the 60s.) I know the Bay Area very well.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Satcom15* /forum/post/19342580
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 1. Does it include OTA antennas or just DTH satellite antennas?
> 
> 2. Is there a size restriction (i.e. no more than xx ft in diameter)?
> 
> 3. What are the rules for condo's/townhouses? Do they differ from single family homes and are more in line with apartment rules?
> 
> ...



Hi,


1) Both OTA and Dish, before the re-roofing only Dish had appeared. The OTA antennas appears to be only on buildings that have had their attic antennas shut down by the aluminum foil radiant barrier.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post18777570 


2) The FCC does have a max. size restriction, the CM4228HD is over that but as KGO is on VHF 7 may be why it is allowed.


3) The complex builder generated the initial CC&R's, changes have been made to confirm to state law but few other changes have been made even though I myself think there should be some parts changed.


If there are three openings for board members, I can cast three votes for one person. This allowed the builder to ensure their persons were on the board until most units were sold.


So, what ever the builder wanted to include are still in effect.



> Quote:
> approved by the owner/manager



The manager does what the board wants in my case and she has been here for as long as I can remember, ~ 35 years.


SHF


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> 2) The FCC does have a max. size restriction, the CM4228HD is over that but as KGO is on VHF 7 may be why it is allowed.



The 1 meter size restriction applies to dishes, but not to OTA antennas. This is a common misinterpretation or misapplication of the OTARD rule.


----------



## arxaw

No OTA antenna size restriction.
* http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html *


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> One of our staff went shopping today at Best Buy, Radio Shack, Lowes, and Home Depot to see what a "typical" consumer can purchase in a local store.



The green line, the GE stuff, looks like it has the lowest losses. GE stuff is what Home Depot typically carries, so is that where that came from ?

My local Lowes and Home Depot carry Carol brand coax, or Phillips brand (which Wal-Mart does also).


----------



## DTV Student

Hi Folks,


I live in Winston-Salem, NC. The UHF DTV transmitters in this area include: WXII (NBC) and WUNL (PBS) which are about 25 mile to the North, and WCWG (CW), WXLV (ABC), WFMY (CBS), WMYV (MYTV), WGHP (FOX), and WLXI (TCT) which are about 35 miles to the South East. I built a modest cost amplified indoor antenna that reliably pulls in all of these stations. I suspect that most of the prime time shows carried on the major networks are pretty much the same all over the country.


If you must see every sports event, perhaps you better stick with a cable or satelite subscription. One of my neighbors has this sort of service and pays about $150 per month. My monthly cost for the "Over The Air" channels noted above is ZERO. My one time cost to build this antenna was a little less than $75 including the pre-amp.


This summer, I built another verision of the antenna which hopefully looks a little better than my first effort. You just gotta make it look pretty for your wife. LOL!


One of my friends wanted me to document my progress. So, I did and posted the results (a write up of six parts, complete with pictures) on the web. If you are interested. Go to Yahoo, open up the "Groups" section and search for "AntennaModelingExperiments". That should take you to the right place. Under the "Files" section, open up the "Double Diamond UHF TV Antenna" folder. You should see the 6 PDF files detailing the fabrication from the beginning to the end.


Good Luck,

DTV Student


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/19344294
> 
> 
> The green line, the GE stuff, looks like it has the lowest losses. GE stuff is what Home Depot typically carries, so is that where that came from ?
> 
> My local Lowes and Home Depot carry Carol brand coax, or Phillips brand (which Wal-Mart does also).



It looks more like the green line has the GREATEST loss, by a very small margin. If I'm reading the plot correctly, the middle horizontal line is 0 dB and each horizontal line on the first plot represents 1 dB difference in attenuation at the frequency denoted by the vertical line (500 MHz center, 100 MHz per vertical division).


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/19345046
> 
> 
> It looks more like the green line has the GREATEST loss, by a very small margin. If I'm reading the plot correctly, the middle horizontal line is 0 dB and each horizontal line on the first plot represents 1 dB difference in attenuation at the frequency denoted by the vertical line (500 MHz center, 100 MHz per vertical division).



Oh OK. Hard to tell without side column numbers, heh.


----------



## LithOTA

I had my mast mounted to a tripod, which was screwed to my deck in the back yard. For support, I added a 12" Y-bracket to clear the eave. The problem is, the leg part of the "Y" gets pretty floppy in the wind, and after only a couple of months, you can see how the prevailing Westerlies have deflected the bracket (see photo).

So I built this custom setup out of 2 steel shelf brackets ($8 at Home Depot) and a 2X4. I also used a longer header peice on the wall, in order to hit 3 studs instead of 2.

This mount is rock-solid, I can hang off of it and it doesn't move. I also ditched the tripod in favor of a Deck Adapter (used for roof-mounted sat dishes), so the bottom of the mast is hinged to the deck. It makes it soooo easy to swap antennas- maybe 5 or 10 minutes, and all I need is a 3/8 socket and rachet, and a 2-step kitchen stepladder. I will be able to pull the rig down in the dead of winter, or after a heavy snow, with no risk to life & limb.

As a bonus, the new mount is stout enough to put my huge homemade DBGH up there, and it's really working fantastic; multi-directional, but with tons of gain everywhere except the nulls at 90deg.


----------



## 300ohm

Looks sturdy.







I would probably paint it to match the siding.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/19351884
> 
> 
> This mount is rock-solid...



Nice work, Lith. Your installation looks great!


I've made a copy of your photo for future reference.


Larry

SF


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/19359350
> 
> 
> Nice work, Lith. Your installation looks great!
> 
> 
> I've made a copy of your photo for future reference.
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF



Thanks 300 and Larry. The Y-bracket would allow the mast to sway in the wind, and a creak would resonate through the wall. I looked for a different factory item that would work, but there's really nothing out there. I was walking around HD looking for other stuff, I spot the right-triangle shaped shelf brackets and was inspired to invent my own.

As good as the new bracket is, the hinge at the bottom of the mast is even better. Before, in order to bring it down, I would loosen the bracket and tripod bolts, then lift the mast up through the bracket and out of the tripod. I would then lower the mast on the outside of the tripod, then undo the bracket and v-e-r-y c-a-r-e-f-u-l-y move the mast over to the edge of the deck (with nothing but my own strength keeping it up), where I would lower the bottom in between the balusters and dig it into the ground. I would then walk the mast down and lay it across the rail on the opposite side.

But one ill-timed gust of wind, or one slip on my part, and the whole rig would've come crashing down. It's a whole lot easier to raise and lower the mast when I only have to be one fulcrum instead of two.


----------



## whiteboy714




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19337922
> 
> 
> If you're installing an antenna outside, most anything may work with your strong signals, and the ANT751 should work well. But you may have to point it in a different direction than North to get reliable reception, due to the building that's in the way. Impossible to tell until you try, though.
> 
> 
> If considering indoor, indoor often does not work through stucco exteriors. The screen behind the stucco is a very good signal blocker.



Thanks so much man!!! Just got the antenna and tested it. Just set it on a chair pointed right at my fence. All channels got full green bars in media center!! Looks great!! I'm going to just take the dish right off the pole and put the antenna on their.


Just facing the other direction obviously. Although there are 2 wires going from there. I may try and run a splitter to those two wires as one goes to my bed room and it would be nice to have it ready to go when I get an atsc tuner in there.


Anyone foresee any issues with this?? Will any splitter work or should I skip that idea and just run it threw one cable?


----------



## arxaw

Split the signal as close to the antenna as possible (where the signal is stronger). You have a lot of signal to work with and shouldn't have any issues with a single split, unless the coax runs are really really long.


----------



## whiteboy714




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19366796
> 
> 
> Split the signal as close to the antenna as possible (where the signal is stronger). You have a lot of signal to work with and shouldn't have any issues with a single split, unless the coax runs are really really long.



Ok perfect I want to split it right at the antenna where the wires split so that should work great. I have this splitter lying around. Sorry for the bad pic it has like glue on it or something. Any idea if this should work?


The numbers on it say 5/1000mhz. And the numbers by the outputs say 3.5db.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The numbers on it say 5/1000mhz. And the numbers by the outputs say 3.5db.



Looks like a good one. Generally if they dont note the number, the loss is 4.5 db or higher.


----------



## whiteboy714




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/19367135
> 
> 
> Looks like a good one. Generally if they dont note the number, the loss is 4.5 db or higher.



Alright sounds good thanks.


----------



## Falcon_77

UHF antenna - for under 37.


Short of going to the UK and grabbing a Group A aerial, what is the best antenna for 18-26 right now?


I tried to assemble a Winegard HD-8800, but it was missing some parts, the manual and the feedline isn't making sense. I downloaded the manual, but it's all of 1 page, with no explanation on the feedpoint.


In any event, I only bought an 8800 due to it being at the top of the low end UHF chart on HDTV Primer. However, I did not see any noticeable improvement in the 4-bay configuration over an old 4221 I had lying around.


Then, I found this review, which shows the 8800 as under both the 4228HD and the DB8, where I need it the most, around 21.

http://www.antennahacks.com/Comparis..._vs_HD8800.htm 


Any thoughts on the best domestic antenna for this range or is it time to get a Group A?


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/19370236
> 
> 
> UHF antenna - for under 37.
> 
> 
> Short of going to the UK and grabbing a Group A aerial, what is the best antenna for 18-26 right now?
> 
> 
> I tried to assemble a Winegard HD-8800, but it was missing some parts, the manual and the feedline isn't making sense. I downloaded the manual, but it's all of 1 page, with no explanation on the feedpoint.
> 
> 
> In any event, I only bought an 8800 due to it being at the top of the low end UHF chart on HDTV Primer. However, I did not see any noticeable improvement in the 4-bay configuration over an old 4221 I had lying around.
> 
> 
> Then, I found this review, which shows the 8800 as under both the 4228HD and the DB8, where I need it the most, around 21.
> 
> http://www.antennahacks.com/Comparis..._vs_HD8800.htm
> 
> 
> Any thoughts on the best domestic antenna for this range or is it time to get a Group A?



The test is not 100% scientific. The input match of the preamp might work better with mis-matched antennas.


Consider that there is a 4 bay bow tie array specifically designed for low UHF channels.
http://www.dtvusaforum.com/dtv-hdtv-...ay-bowtie.html


----------



## Falcon_77

I don't see where I can buy these so called SuperQuad Kosmic Antennas. Let me drop EV a PM. Thanks.


----------



## LithOTA

As Mr. Nist said on HDTV Primer, all of the current 8-bays have harness issues that make the gang no better than a single (he didn't mention the Antennacraft model, but I assume it has the same problem). He even surmises that it may be better to just use the lowest-loss combiner you can find and run them as separate four-bays. This also gives you the option of doing the gang vertically (which I think works much better on flat terrain, but it depends on your local topography).


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I tried to assemble a Winegard HD-8800, but it was missing some parts, the manual and the feedline isn't making sense. I downloaded the manual, but it's all of 1 page, with no explanation on the feedpoint.
> 
> 
> In any event, I only bought an 8800 due to it being at the top of the low end UHF chart on HDTV Primer. However, I did not see any noticeable improvement in the 4-bay configuration over an old 4221 I had lying around.



What dimensions do you need ? I have Ken Nists model of the predessor, the W-8800a, same thing I believe.


----------



## holl_ands

Contact user re purchase of the Kosmic Super-Quad.

Since he has not been active on this forum for over a year now, try here:
http://www.dtvusaforum.com/dtv-hdtv-...ay-bowtie.html 


mclapp sells a DIY kit for the M4 Super-Sized 4-Bay, but you have to buy the reflector screen

at a local hardware store (or DIY the whole thing per his drawings):
http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweath...Bay%20Kit.html 
http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweath...unt%20kit.html 


Fol. modeling results shows the Super-Sized 4-Bay antennas (mclapp's M4 and EV's Super-Quad),

providing slightly better Gain on the lower channels than either the old CM-4228 or the new CM-4228HD.

Replacing the interconnecting harness with the RF Combiner Mod improves the MODELED

CM-4228 and CM-4228HD....but loss in the RF Combiner (typically 0.5 to 1.5 dB)

and SWR mismatch loss (NET GAIN plus ERROR VECTOR MAGNITUDE loss) will eat

into this small advantage.....
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay 

http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...UHF%20Gain.jpg 
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...UHF%20Gain.jpg


----------



## Falcon_77

Thanks for the input. I was able to get the 8800 assembled, but the feedpoint connection is a mess. Im going to scrap the feed bars and combine each side manually (2 identical baluns and short RG6's) to see how it does. However, stacking two 4221HD's vertically is of interest to me. I think the 4228HD is going to be too wide for my attic mount.


I left a message for EV here, but may try him on the other forum. Thanks,


----------



## ctdish

How about combining the two bays wih one of these:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...3700)&c=Signal Combiners&sku=


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/19378616
> 
> 
> How about combining the two bays wih one of these:
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...3700)&c=Signal Combiners&sku=



Looks interesting, manual for it here :
http://winegard.com/kbase/upload/2451096.pdf 


Of course when stacking two CM4221HDs or other 4 bay bowties, you cant go by Winegards suggested spacing of 1/2 wavelength.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/19370236
> 
> 
> UHF antenna - for under 37. . . . . what is the best antenna for 18-26 right now?



If you have room for a 91XG, that would be my suggestion. I've tried the 8800, and the original 4228 in both metropolitan & fringe environments & the 91XG worked best each time on *all* the UHF channels.


In a strong signal environment this weak RF 21 is received quite often to my surprise. (No preamp)


In a fringe environment , this RF21 is received quite well along with channels 16, 19, & 22 through 27. (with a Winegard 4800 preamp)


----------



## jspENC

Here is a pic of my Winegard HD 8800 if it helps... I think this antenna is definitely one of the best if not the best available. I also filled the gap in the rear screen to give me some VHF power. I get WCTI 12 at 99% 25 miles out, and WNCT 10 at 41 miles 96%. I do have to aim toward the towers with it to get these readings. With it pointed towards the opposite direction, signal drops way down. I get lots of channels 62 miles constantly and some over 150 miles at night regularly.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...cef3f89d9a9d25


----------



## arxaw

Some friends recently installed a 4228HD + 7777. Aimed about 38°, they get all the chs in the list below, except 20, 47 & 48. Without a rotor.


----------



## DILYSI Dave

Hey guys. New guy here, though I've done a bunch of reading. I'm out in the sticks and trying to ditch pay TV. I'm part of the way there, and looking for some input on what to do next.


First off, here is my TV Fool - www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dcef3f4b76ab65e (copy and paste - the spam filter won't let me post a link yet.)


I've got a Winegard HD8200 mounted in my attic and aimed at 235*, towards the Atlanta broadcasts. With that, I'm picking up a decent amount, but would like to do better. As it is, a couple of stations that I would like are marginal (5.1, 17.1, 36.1, 2.1) with signals that take a few seconds to lock on and still go in and out occasionally.


I think it would be worthwhile to add a preamp, but I'm not positive. I'm looking at the CM7777, as well as the WG8700 and 8275. I don't want to overboost the signal, though I suspect I'm far enough out that this isn't a concern. One thing that could play a role is that I do have a couple of channels that are stronger than the Atlanta ones, about 45* in either direction. I'm concerned with overboosting those. Being 45* off center, perhaps it's not a concern.


I don't know whether it matters, but just in case, I would like to split this feed 4 ways if I can.


While outside is a possibility, I'd really rather avoid it. Especially after assembling this monster antenna in my attic.







Also, I do have some relatively thick woods probably 75 - 100' away from the antenna, in the direction it is pointing.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> While outside is a possibility, I'd really rather avoid it. Especially after assembling this monster antenna in my attic. Also, I do have some relatively thick woods probably 75 - 100' away from the antenna, in the direction it is pointing.



Well, inside in an attic you lose about 6 - 25+ db over it being high up outdoors. No other antenna will make up for those kind of losses, so if you want the best reception, outdoors is the way to go.



> Quote:
> I think it would be worthwhile to add a preamp, but I'm not positive. I'm looking at the CM7777, as well as the WG8700 and 8275. I don't want to overboost the signal, though I suspect I'm far enough out that this isn't a concern.



Yeah, I think youre fine with a CM7777 and a four way splitter after the preamp. Aim towards the weakest channel you want to get.


----------



## arxaw

What 300ohm said. And overload is not a concern in your case with the 7777, because your strong stations are off-axis from the others.


Your antenna is fine. But for the stations used in your area, a not so wide high VHF+UHF antenna would have been a better choice and easier to deal with in the attic. Something like a Winegard 769 series .


7698 - Same length as your antenna, but much narrower:










.


8200









Outside nearly always works better than an attic install. In some cases, it can make a huge difference in reception if certain building materials were used in the home construction or if there is HVAC equipment/ductwork in the attic.


----------



## DILYSI Dave

I went with the 8200 over the 7698 because it sported the same UHF specs, and longer VHF specs (100 miles vs. 70). That said, I recognize that these are mostly marketing generated numbers. The 8200 was a bear to deal with in the attic, but fortunately I had enough open space to get it aimed where I needed it, and mounting is via 3 pieces of string tied to nails in the rafters.


The house construction is pretty typical - 2x6 rafters with OSB sheathing, and asphalt shingles.


You mention HVAC - the antenna is hanging right over the air handler. There is probably a 2-3 foot gap between them, but they are in the same footprint.


----------



## arxaw

The *gain* specs for the two antennas _for channels being used in your area_ are identical. "Mileage" claims are not a good guide.










Reliable reception at 100 miles does occur, but rarely and usually only over very flat land with transmitter towers at an extremely high altitude. Or over water.


HVAC equipment that close to the antenna could cause problems, but impossible to predict.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The gain specs for the two antennas for channels being used in your area are identical.



Now thats just plain odd, and would lead me to suspect the numbers. Maybe someone in their marketing dept got lazy and re-used the same figures, heh.


Its highly unlikely that 2 different antennas would have EXACTLY the same gains over channels 7 to 69.


----------



## weaver6




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/19381646
> 
> 
> Now thats just plain odd, and would lead me to suspect the numbers. Maybe someone in their marketing dept got lazy and re-used the same figures, heh.
> 
> 
> Its highly unlikely that 2 different antennas would have EXACTLY the same gains over channels 7 to 69.



And exactly the same beamwidth.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

It's not odd at all since the only difference between an 8200 and a 7698 is the additional low-VHF elements on the 8200.


The high-VHF and UHF sections are common to both models.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The high-VHF and UHF sections are common to both models.



??? Take a look at the above pictures.


----------



## tbird2340

I am beyond mad.. I recently got a new antenna (91XG) to get KDKA.. It has worked fine for weeks.. Now it is all jacked up and I don't understand why.. It is a beautiful day here, 68*, sunny, barely any wind.. I went out and looked at my antenna and it's not moving at all.. What the hell can be causing this and what can I do to fix it? All I care about is KDKA as I need to watch the Steelers games!


How can I watch a full game with no issues one day, and then have it skip all over the place the entire game another time?


Signal strength: 62-70

Errors: Tons

SNR (db): around 20

AGC (%): around 60


----------



## pkemery

I am beginning research to drop cable and go OTA. I live in the Dallas, Texas area (zip 75028). My house has a spray applied radient barrier on the underside of the roof deck. Am I understanding correctly that I cannot use an in-attic installation?


Second - if I am forced to use an outdoor mount am I being too silly in worrying about lightning?


An attic installation is preferrable to me because our home owner association rules will limit the height of an outdoor mast to something that can't be seen by any neighbors.


Any help and input would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tbird2340* /forum/post/19382329
> 
> 
> I am beyond mad.. I recently got a new antenna (91XG) to get KDKA.. It has worked fine for weeks.. Now it is all jacked up and I don't understand why. . .



The atmosphere is experiencing a bit of enhancement this weekend in parts of the northeast which can actually harm normally reliable stations. You may want to experiment with the height/aim of your antenna to maximize KDKA which may help improve reliability during times of unfavorable conditions. This is usually best done during more normal reception conditions.


----------



## tbird2340




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/19382577
> 
> 
> The atmosphere is experiencing a bit of enhancement this weekend in parts of the northeast which can actually harm normally reliable stations. You may want to experiment with the height/aim of your antenna to maximize KDKA which may help improve reliability during times of unfavorable conditions. This is usually best done during more normal reception conditions.



I already have it directly aimed at their tower and it's as high as I'm safe with putting it on my roof.. Any other ideas?


Thanks


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tbird2340* /forum/post/19382624
> 
> 
> I already have it directly aimed at their tower and it's as high as I'm safe with putting it on my roof.. Any other ideas?
> 
> 
> Thanks



Higher is not always better. I would experiment with lowering in 6 inch increments if you can't go any higher. I recently lowered mine 2 feet & reception is better than ever.


Do you have the front of the antenna tilted up? I find a slight tilt helps improve reliability on marginal stations.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tbird2340* /forum/post/19382624
> 
> 
> I already have it directly aimed at their tower



Did you aim with a compass? If you have trees, houses or hills in the way, the best aim is not always directly at the towers. You may need to perform the tweaking using the signal stregnth/quality meter on the TV.


2 of my stations work best with the antenna aimed 20 degrees off axis due to local obstructions.


----------



## jspENC




> Quote:
> tbird2340
> 
> Member
> 
> 
> Join Date: Oct 2004
> 
> Location: Poland, OH
> 
> Posts: 121
> 
> I am beyond mad.. I recently got a new antenna (91XG) to get KDKA.. It has worked fine for weeks.. Now it is all jacked up and I don't understand why.. It is a beautiful day here, 68*, sunny, barely any wind.. I went out and looked at my antenna and it's not moving at all.. What the hell can be causing this and what can I do to fix it? All I care about is KDKA as I need to watch the Steelers games!



Check your fittings on the coax. If you did them yourself, maybe they have come loose or the silver hairs are making contact with the center conductor.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> . My house has a spray applied radient barrier on the underside of the roof deck. Am I understanding correctly that I cannot use an in-attic installation?



That would really knock the gain off from any antenna, so yes, mount the antenna outdoors as high up as you can.



> Quote:
> Second - if I am forced to use an outdoor mount am I being too silly in worrying about lightning?



As shown here under The NEC requirement :
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html 


If you use a grounding block for the coax, and ground the mast, youll be fine.


----------



## pkemery

Thanks 300ohm


----------



## DILYSI Dave

CM7777 installed and I've got all channels with a good signal except for 69, which takes a little while to lock on, but then seems mostly OK. I'm pretty excited that all of the Atlanta networks come in with good signal strength.


This was all tested with 3' coax in my attic with a TV that I drug up there. I still need to wire the house downstream of the CM7777. When I was a Fry's, there was RG6 and RG59. Which do I want. Also, I assume it would be better, and probably cheaper, to get a spool of wire and crimp the ends myself, so that I don't end up with unnecessary extra length. Is that a fair assumption? Any suggestions on wire, crimpers, etc.?


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tbird2340* /forum/post/19382329
> 
> 
> ...



Possibly RF interference from a nearby source or a distant station riding in on the weather?


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DILYSI Dave* /forum/post/19383259
> 
> 
> ...When I was a Fry's, there was RG6 and RG59. Which do I want....



Definitely RG6. It has less signal loss.


Cutting the coax to correct lengths is better than getting coax with connectors already on it, but way too long, assuming you install the connectors correctly. A compression tool is better than a simple crimping tool or screw-on connectors, but there you should become familiar with using the compression tool first.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> When I was a Fry's, there was RG6 and RG59. Which do I want.



Agreeing with arxaw, RG6 is newer and has less loss. RG59 is old left over stock. I dont think even the Chinese are making RG-59 anymore (or at least not labeling it as such). If you look at RG-59 vs RG-6 youll see a thicker inner core of styrofoam.




> Quote:
> Any suggestions on wire, crimpers, etc.?



Also seconding arxaw opinion, go with quality compression connectors. After a few test runs, its not really that hard to do a first rate job.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Thanks 300ohm



Not to scare you, but even with precautions, lightning can devastate electronic equipment if you have a hit close by. Ive had first hand experience with that more than once, heh.


But you pays your money and you takes your chances. Even a hit on a cable system is devastating, despite all of their knowledge to avoid.


----------



## LithOTA

I am looking to add a VHF-high Yagi to my UHF-only 9022. The Winegard 6713 will get me my locals, but I'd like the more powerful 1713 for DX season.

Since the 1713 is just a 6713 with double the boom length (adding directors), can the 1713 be used with the front boom portion removed? In other words, is it "convertable", and would it perform just like a 6713?

My thinking is that I could use the short version in winter (to reduce wind and snow issues) and the long one in summer (for DXing).


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/19385133
> 
> 
> I am looking to add a VHF-high Yagi to my UHF-only 9022. The Winegard 6713 will get me my locals, but I'd like the more powerful 1713 for DX season.
> 
> Since the 1713 is just a 6713 with double the boom length (adding directors), can the 1713 be used with the front boom portion removed? In other words, is it "convertable", and would it perform just like a 6713?
> 
> My thinking is that I could use the short version in winter (to reduce wind and snow issues) and the long one in summer (for DXing).



When I bought the 1713 it was only $35 at Amazon.


----------



## paris_tn

Check out the Winegard Y10-7-13, AntennaCraft Y10-7-13, or Fracarro BLV6F. I think this guy in the blog has used all three.

http://inglett.typepad.com/blog/


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *paris_tn* /forum/post/19386411
> 
> 
> Check out the Winegard Y10-7-13, AntennaCraft Y10-7-13, or Fracarro BLV6F. I think this guy in the blog has used all three.
> 
> http://inglett.typepad.com/blog/



Thanks Paris, that's some good info he has there. That Italian job looks like it would grab a lot of wet snow and feezing rain, but 13 dB might be worth it...


----------



## paris_tn

On db gain alot of these antennas seem to be about the same. Some companies use dbi and some use dbd gain. The important number i look at is dbd or if a company uses dbi, subtract 2 to 2.5, to actually get dbd gain. That 13 db could be dbi. The interesting thing about that antenna is it is not as long. This antenna seems popular in Europe and Austrailia. In some forums it seems that antenna has been comparred to some of the yagi 10 element 7-13's. On performance. The Winegard and Antennacraft seem to be good solid performers and hopefully we will learn more on the Fracarro.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/19385133
> 
> 
> I am looking to add a VHF-high Yagi to my UHF-only 9022. The Winegard 6713 will get me my locals, but I'd like the more powerful 1713 for DX season.
> 
> Since the 1713 is just a 6713 with double the boom length (adding directors), can the 1713 be used with the front boom portion removed? In other words, is it "convertable", and would it perform just like a 6713?
> 
> My thinking is that I could use the short version in winter (to reduce wind and snow issues) and the long one in summer (for DXing).



In the 4nec2 model for the YA-1713, removing the front four elements reduced

the overall Gain by a couple dB, but didn't appear to cause any problems.


DISCLAIMER: YA-1713 Log-Yagi antenna model showed Raw/Net Gain Loss problems

on Ch13, that were clearly NOT present in actual on-air results:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/wgya1713


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/19387497
> 
> 
> In the 4nec2 model for the YA-1713, removing the front four elements reduced
> 
> the overall Gain by a couple dB, but didn't appear to cause any problems.
> 
> 
> DISCLAIMER: YA-1713 Log-Yagi antenna model showed Raw/Net Gain Loss problems
> 
> on Ch13, that were clearly NOT present in actual on-air results:
> http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/wgya1713



That's what I was hoping for. Both the Winegard and the Antennacraft 7-13 Yagis have a short and long version, with the only differnce being double the length and double the gain (about 3 dB). And I've seen where some guys have added more front boom sections to 9032s and 91XGs to create 20dB mega-Yagis.

I couldn't decide whether to go with a short or a long, but I'll get the long one and switch out for winter. We get a lot of warm, wet snow here that sticks to everything, and I can see the damage on plenty of 2-69 antennas in my hood (all of them less than 13 years old).


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> We get a lot of warm, wet snow here that sticks to everything, and I can see the damage on plenty of 2-69 antennas in my hood (all of them less than 13 years old).



Yeah, but the long vhf-low elements are the ones that suffer most, with having up to 2 - 54" unsupported 3/8" tubes. The shorter vhf-hi only antennas are naturally much more structurally sound.










Actually, on my CM1221 vee boom, I had 4 - 54" unsupported 3/8" tubes. I made supports for the ends from cut down pieces of vinyl siding J corners.


----------



## ChocoLab




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jspENC* /forum/post/19379440
> 
> 
> Here is a pic of my Winegard HD 8800 if it helps... I think this antenna is definitely one of the best if not the best available. I also filled the gap in the rear screen to give me some VHF power. I get WCTI 12 at 99% 25 miles out, and WNCT 10 at 41 miles 96%. I do have to aim toward the towers with it to get these readings. With it pointed towards the opposite direction, signal drops way down. I get lots of channels 62 miles constantly and some over 150 miles at night regularly.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...cef3f89d9a9d25



Hi jspENC, this pic reminded me that I'd PM'd you months ago about the mods you'd made to your 8800... Nice to see it in action.


I've touted the 8800 over the years, but at my DXing location, I'd found that my older steel 4228 worked better even on the lower channels (where the 8800 usually excels), which surprised me. Well, the 4228 needed some maintenance, so I took it down and put the 8800 back up. But before I did it, I bent the feed lines back as you described. To my surprise, last night the 8800 worked great, even better than the 4228. And last night was definitely not a tropo kind of night.


Now I'm thinking of covering the entire backstop with wire screen to see if that helps the 8800 on the upper channels. If I make it wide enough, it might even get usable upper VHF like the 4228 is known to do.


Anyway, the 8800 gets overlooked, but it's really a fine antenna, particularly if your problem channels are under channel 30.


----------



## jspENC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ChocoLab* /forum/post/19399561
> 
> 
> Hi jspENC, this pic reminded me that I'd PM'd you months ago about the mods you'd made to your 8800... Nice to see it in action.
> 
> 
> I've touted the 8800 over the years, but at my DXing location, I'd found that my older steel 4228 worked better even on the lower channels (where the 8800 usually excels), which surprised me. Well, the 4228 needed some maintenance, so I took it down and put the 8800 back up. But before I did it, I bent the feed lines back as you described. To my surprise, last night the 8800 worked great, even better than the 4228. And last night was definitely not a tropo kind of night.
> 
> 
> Now I'm thinking of covering the entire backstop with wire screen to see if that helps the 8800 on the upper channels. If I make it wide enough, it might even get usable upper VHF like the 4228 is known to do.
> 
> 
> Anyway, the 8800 gets overlooked, but it's really a fine antenna, particularly if your problem channels are under channel 30.



Cool. If you decide to cover the whole back, let us know. I've got plenty of screen still, and would use it if it helps.


I would also be interested to know how the poster above makes out if he decides to take off the feed line and use baluns instead.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jspENC* /forum/post/19399946
> 
> 
> I would also be interested to know how the poster above makes out if he decides to take off the feed line and use baluns instead.



I have a 4400, and I was thinking of picking up another one (they're so cheap) and trying a two-balun join, but ganging them vertically. So I'd also be interested in how well it works to ditch the mismatched feedline.

I think the 8800's big draw is the weight. All of the other 8-bays are almost twice as heavy.


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jspENC* /forum/post/19379440
> 
> 
> Here is a pic of my Winegard HD 8800 if it helps...



Thanks. Can you zoom in on the feedpoint? I would be curious to see what that looks like as I think I'm missing parts for it.


However, I'm planning on removing the feedlines for separate baluns on each 4 bay side. I will be curious to see if it gets better or worse, but it might be hard to tell since most of the lower UHF channels are quite subject to tropo.


Attached is a TV Fool plot, for an idea of what I'm dealing with. KUSI is impossible, thanks to KSCI. How LA and SD can share a low UHF, like 18 is beyond me. Well, not well at all! 8 is also a problem on my Y5-7-13. I can't get KFMB/8 or KFLA/8, due to co-channel, but I can get KGTV/10 ok on most nights.


----------



## rabbit73

*Falcon_77*:


> Quote:
> Attached is a TV Fool plot, for an idea of what I'm dealing with. KUSI is impossible, thanks to KSCI. How LA and SD can share a low UHF, like 18 is beyond me. Well, not well at all! 8 is also a problem on my Y5-7-13. I can't get KFMB/8 or KFLA/8, due to co-channel, but I can get KGTV/10 ok on most nights.



I looked at the report for your city:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a543c3f64c6325 


Your co-channel interference problem reminds me a lot of the problem that *jchtrout1* is having:
*tweaking an antenna*
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1285681 


You're lucky to get KGTV. The city report indicates that you would need an antenna with over 20 dB gain, which is in the category of antennas for EME (moon bounce communication).


----------



## PCTools

What I have:


UHF Antenna:
http://www.channelmaster.com/HD_tele...tenna_s/44.htm 


VHF Antenna:
http://www.channelmaster.com/HD_tele...tenna_s/49.htm 


These are mounted on a rotor in my attic, connected to a CM7777 pre-amp. I am thinking about discarding the CM 3016, to free up some more space on the pipe and upgrading the 4221 to a CS4, DB8 or 8800. I do not have enough room for a 91XG.


Do you feel upgrading a 4221 to a CS4, DB8, or 8800 would be worth the trouble? Maybe doing a vertical stack.


Any ideas?


----------



## arxaw

What's your TVFool results for your address?


----------



## PCTools

Zipcode 48144



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19406296
> 
> 
> What's your TVFool results for your address?


----------



## 300ohm

Your LOS stations are all over the compass. I would suggest as the cheapest solution, two home made reflector less GH antennas, with NARODs, (channel 5 should be strong enough to get with a paper clip) with two downleads to an an A-B switch at the TV. The CM7777 connected to the antenna with the weakest TV channels.


----------



## jspENC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/19405727
> 
> 
> Thanks. Can you zoom in on the feedpoint? I would be curious to see what that looks like as I think I'm missing parts for it.
> 
> 
> However, I'm planning on removing the feedlines for separate baluns on each 4 bay side. I will be curious to see if it gets better or worse, but it might be hard to tell since most of the lower UHF channels are quite subject to tropo.
> 
> 
> Attached is a TV Fool plot, for an idea of what I'm dealing with. KUSI is impossible, thanks to KSCI. How LA and SD can share a low UHF, like 18 is beyond me. Well, not well at all! 8 is also a problem on my Y5-7-13. I can't get KFMB/8 or KFLA/8, due to co-channel, but I can get KGTV/10 ok on most nights.



You should have two screws, two wing nuts, and two washers. One set of feeds goes on the back of the balun connector, and the other two on the front.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/19406449
> 
> 
> Zipcode 48144


What are the callsign letters of the channel lowest on this list that is an absolutely must-have?


----------



## PCTools

Good question..


I can (already) capture WKBD, with my existing 4221.


I was thinking of upgrading to another UHF antenna, and wanted to inquire if the cost and time to install a new UHF would really be a an "upgrade."


That is, replacing the CM 4221 with a CS4, DB8, or 8800.


Thank you...


----------



## arxaw

You have channels in all 3 bands; low-VHF, high-VHF & UHF. All the antennas you listed as replacements are best used for UHF-only, and usually don't work well for high VHF and certainly not low VHF (WLMB). Your proposed antennas, while having a smaller footprint, would be a downgrade, IMO.


If you wanted to replace your two-antenna system with a single panel antenna, a Channel Master 4228HD would be a better choice than the antennas you listed. *But* you would likely lose WLMB in the low-VHF band, since the 4228 has no gain for chs 2 thru 6.


----------



## ADTech

WLMB-DT is a religious broadcaster. As such, its appeal is somewhat limited to those to whom it ministers.


It would be more productive to identify the channels that are desired but are not being received using your current equipment.


----------



## arxaw

It would appear the intention of PCTools is to free up more attic space with a one-antenna setup, to replace his current two-antenna arrangement. He never stated there are any channels of interest that he currently cannot receive with his existing system.


----------



## PCTools

Thank you for all the comments. I apologize for not being clearer with my request.


I currently utilize a two antenna system (CM4221 4-bay above a CM3016 VHF with rotor) in an attic with limited real estate. The turning radius is limited to the length of the CM3016 VHF antenna (I believe it is half the 83.6" antenna length). I also have the constraint of an inverted "V" roof that decreases the turning diameter (about 85" at one foot above the floor). The farther you go up the mast pipe the less the turning radius. My goal is NOT to throw away the CM3016 VHF antenna UNLESS it makes sense to, but to install a better UHF antenna as the vast majority of digital stations watched are in the UHF band. The two local high VHF channels are about 15 miles away so I could possibly capture those stations (chan. 11, 13) on a UHF antenna?


Should I consider replacing the CM4221 4-bay for an 8-bay DB8? I am not convinced replacing the CM4221 with a ClearStream4 will yield improvement. Any thoughts?


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/19390933
> 
> 
> ...I had 4 - 54" unsupported 3/8" tubes. I made supports for the ends from cut down pieces of vinyl siding J corners.



I've fortified the unsupported 3/8" tubes on many antennas by taping lengths of 1/2" PVC to them. I do this when I use such antennas on highrise buildings as tall as 26 stories.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

I'd keep the 3016 and move it off to the side with a fixed aim on heading 120° for the two local high-VHF stations. Then, I'd put in the 8-bay on the rotor. Combine the output of the two antennas with a UVSJ. Best of both worlds. A DB8 would likely pick up 11 and 13 that close in, but the 3016 would be a far better and more reliable choice to use for them.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/19410487
> 
> 
> ...Should I consider replacing the CM4221 4-bay for an 8-bay DB8? I am not convinced replacing the CM4221 with a ClearStream4 will yield improvement. Any thoughts?



Strictly comparing 8-bays, the 4228HD would be a better choice than the DB8.
*http://www.antennahacks.com/Comparis...F_Shootout.htm*


----------



## ChocoLab




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/19411859
> 
> 
> I'd keep the 3016 and move it off to the side with a fixed aim on heading 120° for the two local high-VHF stations. Then, I'd put in the 8-bay on the rotor. Combine the output of the two antennas with a UVSJ. Best of both worlds. A DB8 would likely pick up 11 and 13 that close in, but the 3016 would be a far better and more reliable choice to use for them.



Same here. Unless you're rotating around for VHF channels in different directions, you can disconnect the VHF antenna and leave it pointed in one direction.


Edit, just looked at your TV fool and wow, you have stations all around you. They've got you surrounded!


If you do want to rotor around on VHF (maybe to get that WBJK?), you can always disconnect or cut off the UHF portion of the 3016 -- it is doing nothing anyway but taking up space in your setup because you already have a dedicated UHF antenna. That would cut the size of the antenna by 1/3 or more.


But PCTools, I guess I still don't quite understand your goal here.







You say you get even WKBD with the 4221... Are you getting dropouts from time to time and are looking to eliminate those? Or are you looking to reach out and possibly get more channels? If you already have a solid lock on the channels you want, a "better" antenna won't really do anything for you. If your signals are weak from time to time or you just want to reach out and get as many channels as possible like a lot of us do, a higher-gain antenna would help you do that.


As for your one question, I don't think there's any doubt that a 4228 would get those 11 and 13 channels. The 8-bays with a wider screen will get some upper VHF (the DB8 is not one of those, though at the strength of your 11 and 13 it could still work). But heck, 11 and 13 are close enough that I suspect a wire dipole cut to the proper length would get them.


----------



## PCTools

Great idea. Is there an 8-bay antenna that I can pass through a 26 X 27 attic access panel hole? I initially went with the CM4221 because the CM 8-bay was one piece that would not pass through the access panel hole. Perhaps CM makes an 8-bay now that breaks down into two components?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/19411859
> 
> 
> I'd keep the 3016 and move it off to the side with a fixed aim on heading 120° for the two local high-VHF stations. Then, I'd put in the 8-bay on the rotor. Combine the output of the two antennas with a UVSJ. Best of both worlds. A DB8 would likely pick up 11 and 13 that close in, but the 3016 would be a far better and more reliable choice to use for them.


----------



## Falcon_77

If you don't mind taking the time to assemble it in the attic, the Winegard 8800 will easily fit through small attic holes.


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/19412690
> 
> 
> Great idea. Is there an 8-bay antenna that I can pass through a 26” X 27” attic access panel hole? I initially went with the CM4221 because the CM 8-bay was one piece that would not pass through the access panel hole. Perhaps CM makes an 8-bay now that breaks down into two components?



The CM4228HD will fit. You have 37 inches diagonally and the antenna is 41 x 33 inches. Folded, it is about an inch thick.

http://www.csgnetwork.com/foundationsquarecalc.html 

http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master...pr_product_top


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/19412690
> 
> 
> Great idea. Is there an 8-bay antenna that I can pass through a 26 X 27 attic access panel hole? I initially went with the CM4221 because the CM 8-bay was one piece that would not pass through the access panel hole. Perhaps CM makes an 8-bay now that breaks down into two components?



One thing about attic installs- with the attenuation of the attic, you can't afford to give up any signal on the way from the antenna to the tuner. Make sure that ALL of your cable is factory-terminated RG-6 quad shield (and as little length as possible). Also keep the splitter and switch use to an absolute minumum, and make sure that all of the connections are rock-solid.

When I first started with OTA in my attic, I used the 13-yr-old RG-59 that was installed by the builder. Later I routed my own RG-6 instead, and it made a big difference in signal quality.


----------



## mccartybr

I am considering a Tin Lee AC7 to combine UHF channel 32 with another broadband UHF antenna. Before I spend the money, anyone have any experience with how this will affect UHF channel 30? I have a really strong signal on that channel now, will an AC7 for channel 32 degrade channel 30 significantly?


----------



## ctdish

Bret,

Based on the AC7 spec you will get some loss as the the wideband input is typically 3 dB down at 18 MHz which is three channels from the one you want to receive. It may work for you though, unlike most consumer devices the Tinlee products I have seem to perform better that the advertised spec. You should probably give the 800 number a call. Tell the lady what you want to do and you will be transferred to a person who will design your filter and he will suggest an appropriate device. I find the place to be very friendly.

John


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mccartybr* /forum/post/19419528
> 
> 
> I am considering a Tin Lee AC7 to combine UHF channel 32 with another broadband UHF antenna. Before I spend the money, anyone have any experience with how this will affect UHF channel 30? I have a really strong signal on that channel now, will an AC7 for channel 32 degrade channel 30 significantly?



Tin Lee AC-7E specs cite CR7E specs for Bandstop Loss (Wideband antennaport)

and CF7 for Bandpass Loss (Ch32 antenna port):
http://www.tinlee.com/CATV-Signal-Injector.php?active=1 

Bandpass loss of CR7E-CH.59, is probably close to performance of Ch32 Insertion Filter (AC-7):
http://www.tinlee.com/Graph_CR7E.php?active=1#CR7E-59 

That's only a few dB loss on the Next Adjacent Channels (Ch30 & Ch34).


----------



## AntAltMike

The Tin Lee people are good to work with. When I had them make some bandpass filters for me, I requested that they "fudge" a little on the low end of the 38-40 BPF to more severely attenuate a stronger, local 36, even at the partial expense of 38, and that they slide the high end of the 46 BPF down a little to help further attenuate the strong 48, albeit at the partial expense of the upper edge of the 46 "haystack", and they did both for me. If they hadn't, I probably would have had to pre-notched down the 36 and 48 using expensive notch filters.


----------



## gbynum




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/19419056
> 
> 
> One thing about attic installs- with the attenuation of the attic, you can't afford to give up any signal on the way from the antenna to the tuner.



And, if all signals are equally weak, put an amplifier AT THE ANTENNA where it amplifies signals, not the noise introduced by additional connections and cable. After amplification, you can split as required, adjusting amplifier gain to match the degree of splitting required.


I'm constantly amazed at people's surprise at how much better a "mast mounted" amp works than the same amp after a splitter at the set. We've some people here who can still do the noise figure calculation stuff I could do in 1970 but have forgotten.


----------



## Devasin

What are my chances of picking up ABC (5.1), CBS (8.1), NBC (13.1), and FOX (15.1) with a Winegard HD7698P Antenna mounted in the attic and a Winegard AP-8700 Preamp? Thanks for any thoughts and/or suggestions.


Here is the tvfool analysis:


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Devasin* /forum/post/19428912
> 
> 
> What are my chances of picking up ABC (5.1), CBS (8.1), NBC (13.1), and FOX (15.1) with a Winegard HD7698P Antenna mounted in the attic and a Winegard AP-8700 Preamp?



Getting those stations reliably will most likely require an outdoor antenna. You will also need a channel 2-69 such as a Winegard 7084 or 8200. The 7698 only goes down to channel 7. The preamp choice is a good one.


----------



## LithOTA

You will have to consider how much you want WOI-5. If you can get your ABC reliably from KCRG, and your RTV reliably from KWWL, then WOI is redundant. You could just forget about it and you can use the 7698 for everything else.

Why buy a 9-foot wide monster for just one channel? You shouldn't, unless WOI offers some unique programming that you really want.


----------



## Mister B

Why are F/B ratios for flat panel (4 and 8 bay) UHF antennas listed as negative numbers while figures for Yagi style antennas are in the positive range? For instance. the Winegard 8800 lists the F/B ratio as -17db at channel 32 while the 9095's F/B is 14db. Does the 8800 really have a better F/B ratio by a margin of 31db?


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mister B* /forum/post/19429342
> 
> 
> Why are F/B ratios for flat panel (4 and 8 bay) UHF antennas listed as negative numbers while figures for Yagi style antennas are in the positive range? For instance. the Winegard 8800 lists the F/B ratio as -17db at channel 32 while the 9095's F/B is 14db. Does the 8800 really have a better F/B ratio by a margin of 31db?



No. There's something strange about their numbers on their spec sheet. Part of that might be due to the lack of legibility of the scale on the polar plots. If the scale were readable, the F/B would be easily discerned. The polar plots clearly indicate a positive F/B ratio.


A "negative" F/B ratio would indicate higher gain from the back vs. the front as their 1080 exhibits on several channels.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mister B* /forum/post/19429342
> 
> 
> Why are F/B ratios for flat panel (4 and 8 bay) UHF antennas listed as negative numbers while figures for Yagi style antennas are in the positive range? For instance. the Winegard 8800 lists the F/B ratio as -17db at channel 32 while the 9095's F/B is 14db. Does the 8800 really have a better F/B ratio by a margin of 31db?



Here is what Winegard says:


>>>

The front/back ratio of the HD9095P is a miss print it should be -14dB

verses the HD-8800 at -17dB.


Cordially,


Hans Rabong

Tech. Service Manager.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Devasin* /forum/post/19428912
> 
> 
> What are my chances of picking up ABC (5.1), CBS (8.1), NBC (13.1), and FOX (15.1) with a Winegard HD7698P Antenna mounted in the attic and a Winegard AP-8700 Preamp? Thanks for any thoughts and/or suggestions.



So far, no one has mentioned that your stations come from multiple directions. To solve the problem will require a rotator or several antennas and combiners. A compromise aim to pick up everything is impossible to predict ahead of time. Even a good compromise aim will be prone to dropouts and pixelization.


----------



## mgeoffriau

Alright, I'm considering upgrading my antenna setup and need some advice from the experts.


Preliminaries:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a37f7b8d0ec9 


Antenna: Eagle Aspen Dtv2Buhf (similar to AntennasDirect DB2)

Location: Outdoor, corner of roof mounted on old Dish Network mast

Amp/Preamp: none


As you can see from my tvfool, the majority of the channels I receive are on or near the 226 degree mark. I've aligned my antenna using my HTC Incredible GPS function.


Most of the channels I receive have very good signals. The exception is WAPT (16.1), which is odd since it should be strongest signal I receive. Unfortunately I get frequent visual glitches and frozen images on this channel.


My plan right now is to use a longer mast to raise the height of the antenna (or, possibly, move the mount to the chimney in the center of the roof) and see if that improves the situation.


However, since I'll be working on the setup, I figured it might not be a bad time to try out another, larger antenna. I'm looking for something that would be a significant step up in performance from the Eagle Aspen. I'd like to spend less than $50. I'd like to avoid introducing a preamp/amp into the setup (though would be willing to try it). I don't know if there exists an antenna that fits these preferences.


Any recommendations? Or thoughts about improving performance with my current setup?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Most of the channels I receive have very good signals. The exception is WAPT (16.1), which is odd since it should be strongest signal I receive.



It could be overloading.


What I would do, is to first use your small double bay bowtie to find the hotspot location on your property.


Then I would get a slightly stronger gain inexpensive antenna, like the AntennaCraft G1483 or a four bay bowtie for a second antenna. Point the double bay to the channel 34 station direction and the new antenna towards the 226 degree channels. Run two coax downleads into an A-B switch near the TV.


I assume you dont care about the low power stations 6 and 8.


Then, when you want to watch channel 34 or 16, flip the switch to the channel 34 direction.


----------



## mgeoffriau




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/19431406
> 
> 
> It could be overloading.
> 
> 
> What I would do, is to first use your small double bay bowtie to find the hotspot location on your property.
> 
> 
> Then I would get a slightly stronger gain inexpensive antenna, like the AntennaCraft G1483 or a four bay bowtie for a second antenna. Point the double bay to the channel 34 station direction and the new antenna towards the 226 degree channels. Run two coax downleads into an A-B switch near the TV.
> 
> 
> I assume you dont care about the low power stations 6 and 8.
> 
> 
> Then, when you want to watch channel 34 or 16, flip the switch to the channel 34 direction.



Would prefer to avoid the A/B for convenience (what can I say, I'm lazy). Will consider that option though.


Will search for info overloading, thanks for the tip.


Would it be possible to confirm this overloading possibility by pointing my antenna to the side by a certain amount to weaken the WAPT 16.1 signal? IE, if the visual artifacts and frozen images decrease with a weaker signal, then I know that it's overloading?


----------



## gcd0865

Devasin:


Since your ABC 5.1 is on real channel 5, and the Winegard 7698 only receives VHF-high (channels 7-13) and UHF, but not VHF-low on channels 2-6, the 7698 will not receive your ABC 5.1/5. In order to receive that channel, you'd need either:


(1) a Winegard HD8200U (which covers VHF-low, VHF-high and UHF, all in one antenna):
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HD8200U 


Or


(2) a Winegard HD7084 (which also covers VHF-low, VHF-high and UHF, all in one antenna):
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HD7084 


Or


(3) a Winegard HD5030 (which covers VHF-low and VHF-high), plus a separate UHF antenna (91XG or DB8 or 4228HD or HD8800), joined together by a UVSJ near the antennas into one downlead to the tv:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HD-5030 
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=91XG 
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=DB8 
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=4228-HD 
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HD-8800 
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=UVSJ 


You'll definitely lose some signal strength inside the attic with typical plywood/asphalt shingle construction (maybe a third, more loss on VHF than UHF in my experience). FYI, I cannot get VHF 11.1 or 13.1 from my attic (plywood/asphalt shingles) at 65 miles and 6.3/5.9 dB NM respectively with a Winegard YA1713 (VHF-high-only antenna) without an amp, but it comes in fine out on the chimney (also without an amp). So, in my fairly flat suburban terrain without too many close high trees, I estimate maximum reliable attic reception range at around 50 miles or so with the best antennas and no amp (sorry, I don’t have any amp experience to share). At night, my attic antennas will start to receive UHF stations at 55-60 miles, but not the VHFs. If your attic has foil or any other metal, forget it.


Assuming plywood/asphalt shingles, if you have sufficient attic space, you could temporarily try one of these options at the very highest point in your attic (perhaps first without an amplifier, and then with), to see if reception is sufficient. Due to the antenna configurations, the HD5030 plus UHF (especially the DB8 or 4228HD or HD8800) is probably the most attic-friendly, and capable of being mounted a little higher (which was very important for my attic installation). I doubt the signals are strong enough at your location for reliable reception from your attic without an amplifier, and maybe not even with an amp.


Mounted outside in a fixed position at 305-306 degrees (probably okay without an amp), any of these combinations should get all of your stations from that direction (maybe even including 39.1 ION at 320 degrees if you cheated a little and pointed it (or just the UHF if using separates) around 310-ish degrees. Would FOX 17.1/16 at 306 degrees be an acceptable substitute for FOX 15.1/15 in the opposite direction? If so, no need for a rotor.


If you put any of these combinations outside on a rotor (not necessarily with an amp), you'd probably get everything in all directions down to 0.0 db NM on your TVFool report reliably, and maybe even the first few in the negative dB NM range, but perhaps not as reliably.


Hope this is helpful...


----------



## drocpsu

So I've got a seemingly pretty basic question. I'm going to be tailgating this weekend for a college football game, and we're bringing a tv. According to Antennaweb, the local ABC station broadcasts from 6.7 miles away from where we'll be. We will be in the middle of a field with no tall buildings or trees around. Would I be able to pick up a UHF OTA HD station with a pair of plain old rabbit ears in a situation like this?


I used to live just outside NYC and could pick up ~15 OTA HD channels with the antenna before.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mgeoffriau* /forum/post/19431481
> 
> 
> 
> Will search for info overloading, thanks for the tip.
> 
> 
> Would it be possible to confirm this overloading possibility by pointing my antenna to the side by a certain amount to weaken the WAPT 16.1 signal? IE, if the visual artifacts and frozen images decrease with a weaker signal, then I know that it's overloading?



The antenna is likely sitting in a vertical dead spot for channel 16.1. Try raising/lowering the antenna in 6 inch increments & the problem will be likely be resolved. Overload is nearly impossible more than 4 miles from the transmitter unless some type of amplification is used.


----------



## Mister B




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADTech* /forum/post/19429882
> 
> 
> No. There's something strange about their numbers on their spec sheet. Part of that might be due to the lack of legibility of the scale on the polar plots. If the scale were readable, the F/B would be easily discerned. The polar plots clearly indicate a positive F/B ratio.
> 
> 
> A "negative" F/B ratio would indicate higher gain from the back vs. the front as their 1080 exhibits on several channels.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/19429941
> 
> 
> Here is what Winegard says:
> 
> 
> >>>
> 
> The front/back ratio of the HD9095P is a miss print it should be -14dB
> 
> verses the HD-8800 at -17dB.
> 
> 
> Cordially,
> 
> 
> Hans Rabong
> 
> Tech. Service Manager.


----------



## nybbler

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Mister B* 
The information supplied from these two sources seems contradictory. Are F/B ratios usually quoted as negative numbers, and if so, which antenna has the better ability to reject signals from the rear? Does a negative F/B value indicate better performance than a positive value and the more negative the value (lower bleow zero) the better?
F/B ratio is the ratio (difference when expressed in dB) between antenna gain in the forward direction and antenna gain in the backward direction. If you've got a negative F/B ratio you're probably pointing the antenna the wrong way -- or you entered the back as the front and the front as the back in the antenna simulation software. You can see in the plots that both the 9095 and the 8800 have positive F/B ratios; the negative number is an error.


If you look at the 1080 plots, you'll see that when the antenna really does have a negative F/B ratio, as at channel 9, they claim the F/B ratio is 0.


----------



## Devasin

Thanks everyone for your suggestions and thoughts. I'm really glad I checked here first before purchasing an antenna that wouldn't have been ideal for my situation. I was really hoping an attic mount would work because it would be so much easier. Special thanks to gcd0865 for taking the time to go into detail and giving me links to the best choices. Yes, FOX 17.1/16 would be an acceptable substitue for FOX 15.1/15. I just want the 4 major networks and I don't care where they come from.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *drocpsu* /forum/post/19432332
> 
> 
> So I've got a seemingly pretty basic question. I'm going to be tailgating this weekend for a college football game, and we're bringing a tv. According to Antennaweb, the local ABC station broadcasts from 6.7 miles away from where we'll be. We will be in the middle of a field with no tall buildings or trees around. Would I be able to pick up a UHF OTA HD station with a pair of plain old rabbit ears in a situation like this?
> 
> 
> I used to live just outside NYC and could pick up ~15 OTA HD channels with the antenna before.



While rabbit ears typically aren't efficient at UHF, you'll likely be okay. You could also probably get by with a paper clip, FWIW.


ABC in NYC is on channel 7 anyway. If you're going to be at the Meadowlands, rabbit ears should be fine.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nybbler* /forum/post/19433038
> 
> 
> F/B ratio is the ratio (difference when expressed in dB) between antenna gain in the forward direction and antenna gain in the backward direction. If you've got a negative F/B ratio you're probably pointing the antenna the wrong way -- or you entered the back as the front and the front as the back in the antenna simulation software. You can see in the plots that both the 9095 and the 8800 have positive F/B ratios; the negative number is an error.
> 
> 
> If you look at the 1080 plots, you'll see that when the antenna really does have a negative F/B ratio, as at channel 9, they claim the F/B ratio is 0.




A F/B of "0" indicates that the antenna is bi-directional that that frequency. It receives equally well (or poorly) from both the front or rear. A simple dipole or loop exhibits this behavior and has a F/B of 0. Add a reflector and/or directors, and the antenna becomes more directional with additional positive gain in the desired direction and lesser or negative gain in the undesired direction.


A negative F/B ratio indicates that the antenna receives better off the back vs off the front. For example, most N-bay UHF antennas have better VHF performance off the back. These would typically have a positive F/B ratio on their design frequencies while having a negative F/B ratio on those frequencies where the signal is better received from the rear.


Quite frankly, it appears to me that the 1080's data sheet is incomplete for the channel 7-13 data points. Somebody forgot to fill in the last couple of table entries, perhaps.


----------



## drocpsu




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/19433932
> 
> 
> While rabbit ears typically aren't efficient at UHF, you'll likely be okay. You could also probably get by with a paper clip, FWIW.
> 
> 
> ABC in NYC is on channel 7 anyway. If you're going to be at the Meadowlands, rabbit ears should be fine.



thanks for the info. I'll actually be in central PA (Penn State), so ABC is different. Anyway, after reading some more posts on this board, I went out and bought a cheap radioshack UHF/VHF combo antenna (rabbit ears and a loop), just to be safe. At only ~7 miles, I'd think the signal is strong enough to pick it up with just a basic antenna. We'll see!


Would a paperclip actually pick up tv signals?


----------



## gbynum




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *drocpsu* /forum/post/19433985
> 
> 
> Would a paperclip actually pick up tv signals?



Yes ... here in Greenville SC, I could get 2 HD channels with 4 inches of wire in the antenna jack ... I tried just for fun. I hooked 50 ft of unterminated coax up and ran it to the roof with a foot of center conductor mounted vertical ... 4 channels, 4 subchannels (not .1)


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mgeoffriau* /forum/post/19430933
> 
> 
> Most of the channels I receive have very good signals. The exception is WAPT (16.1), which is odd since it should be strongest signal I receive. Unfortunately I get frequent visual glitches and frozen images on this channel.
> 
> 
> Any recommendations? Or thoughts about improving performance with my current setup?



The Eagle Aspen DB2 should work fine for WAPT. The fact that it isn't working will be hard to figure out without a true signal level meter.


I notice that WAPT is using a side mounted antenna. Such an antenna has lobes that look like a daisy. If you happen to be in between two of those daisy petals, your signal will be much weaker than predicted. The trouble with a weak signal on channel 21 is that WMPN on channel 20 is using a top mount antenna which does not have the same nulls. That makes interference from channel 20 into 21 possible. It would take an actual signal level measurement to know for sure.


Your idea of varying the height of the antenna slightly is your best bet to make WAPT stronger while simultaneously finding a dip in the signal level of WMPN.


----------



## ssilverado60

Hi, i am new to the whole OTA thing and am looking for a recomendation on an antenna that will work for me. If someone can recomend a good antenna for me that would be great. It will be going in the attic of my house. The only station i need is KSBY, but if it is possible without much extra work I would like to get KEYT as well. here is the TV fool report.











thanks in advance


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> If someone can recomend a good antenna for me that would be great. It will be going in the attic of my house.



Do you want channel 8, KKDJ-LP also ?


If not, a reflector-less SBGH or 4 bay bowtie, aimed about in the 110/290 degree magnetic direction, may work for you.

KEYT, at 2 edge is going to be especially tricky in an attic, but you may be able to do it.







Wont know until you try.


If you want channel 8 also, then try a SBGH with NARODs.


----------



## ssilverado60

no, channel 8 is not important to me. My priority is Ksby-DT2 (6.2), which is a CW channel that directv does not offer in my area. What I am trying to accomplish is to add a few channels that I would like that Directv does not offer in their programming.


So if i get a 4 bay bowtie like this, http://www.summitsource.com/product_...oducts_id=6422 , I will be able to get KSBY and possibly KEYT? or are these 2 channels too far apart from eachother to get them both with an antenna like this? sorry for all the questions but this is the first real attempt ive made in this area to try and get some OTA reception and I just want to make sure im not wasting my time or money.


----------



## klandry7

Quote:

Originally Posted by *ssilverado60*
no, channel 8 is not important to me. My priority is Ksby-DT2 (6.2), which is a CW channel that directv does not offer in my area. What I am trying to accomplish is to add a few channels that I would like that Directv does not offer in their programming.


So if i get a 4 bay bowtie like this, http://www.summitsource.com/product_...oducts_id=6422 , I will be able to get KSBY and possibly KEYT? or are these 2 channels too far apart from eachother to get them both with an antenna like this? sorry for all the questions but this is the first real attempt ive made in this area to try and get some OTA reception and I just want to make sure im not wasting my time or money.
Since you want to use the attic you may need one stronger like this pointed at KEYT to get both.
http://www.summitsource.com/channel-...le-p-7809.html


----------



## mgeoffriau

Thanks, Digital Rules and Tower Guy. It's been rainy the past few days but it should be dry when I get home today...I'm going to get up there and test some different heights while my wife watches whatever is on WAPT.


----------



## holl_ands

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Ennui* 
Here is what Winegard says:


>>>

The front/back ratio of the HD9095P is a miss print it should be -14dB

verses the HD-8800 at -17dB.


Cordially,


Hans Rabong

Tech. Service Manager.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Since you want to use the attic you may need one stronger like this pointed at KEYT to get both.



Yep, if your goal is only those two stations. KSBY (and KCOY) should come in with a paper clip, so I wouldnt worry about them.


Thats the trade-off, with a reflectorless antenna youll get more stations. But with a reflectored antenna, youll have a better chance at KEYT.


----------



## jlhct

Hello,


I'm looking for suggestions for an outdoor antenna. Here are my TV fool results:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a31890fa1459 


I received some suggestions for an inside antenna, but so far the results haven't too successful yet.


I tried a clearstation2, which did get some channels but not all.


So, any suggestions on an outdoor antenna would be great, and if possible one that is smaller in size.


Thanks very much!


----------



## jubjub75

I could use some advice on an outdoor antenna. I've been living in Chicago for the last two years, and love using an antenna with Windows Media Center. I was only about 4 miles from the transmitters, and could pick them up pretty easily with my indoor Winegard SS-3000. I moved back to Toledo, OH, and found a spot where I can pick up the Toledo stations semi-well with the same antenna (75-80% strength) from about 10 miles away. Anyways, I'm thinking that an outdoor antenna should be able to pull in a stronger, more consistent signal, so want to go that route. Also, the Detroit stations are about 60 miles away, and I was wondering if picking those up is feasible.


Here is my TVFool data:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a35e7eb91d96 


The Toledo stations are the ones almost directly East from my location. Detroit is just East of true North. Is picking those up an option? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!


Jeff


----------



## ctdish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jlhct* /forum/post/19451761
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> 
> I'm looking for suggestions for an outdoor antenna. Here are my TV fool results:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a31890fa1459
> 
> 
> 
> So, any suggestions on an outdoor antenna would be great, and if possible one that is smaller in size.
> 
> 
> Thanks very much!



This should be a good antenna for your location:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Antennas&sku=


----------



## gcd0865

jubjub75:


Looking at your TVFool report, if you only wanted the Toledo stations that are pretty much due east of your location, I agree with ctdish's suggestion that the Winegard HD7694P would be perfect. If you happen to have an attic that is traditional plywood/shingle construction without foil-lined insulation or other significant metal, the 7694 would probably receive your Toledo stations just fine from your attic, in case outside appearance is a significant issue.


However, if you also want to receive the Detroit stations, the Winegard 7694 (even if mounted outside and pointed toward Detroit) would probably not be sufficient, but a larger antenna mounted outside and pointed toward Detroit would probably work just fine. A general consensus seems to be that a good long-range antenna setup will reliably receive stations above 0.0 dB NM on your TV Fool report. Since your Toledo stations are off-axis from the direction of the Detroit stations, and a few other stations are scattered about, you have a few different options.


One good outside combination for the Detroit stations would be a Winegard YA-1713 VHF-high antenna for WJBK-7 (FOX) and a good UHF antenna (like an Antennas Direct 91XG, Antennas Direct DB8 or Channel Master 4228HD) for the rest. Mount the UHF antenna near the top of the mast and the YA-1713 three feet below it on the same mast, and feed short RG-6 coax lines (two/three feet or so each) from each antenna to a UVSJ, and run a single RG-6 coax from the UVSJ down to your tv. This is often recommended on this and other boards as a good long-range reception antenna combination.

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=YA1713 
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=91XG 
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=DB8 
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=4228-HD 
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=UVSJ 


If you really preferred a single combination VHF-high/UHF antenna instead of separate antennas, you'd probably have to get something like a Winegard HD-7696P, 7697 or 7698 (others can chime in on which one might be best), but these antennas are rather long, which tends to make them look big up on the roof (at least in my opinion) compared to the YA-1713 plus UHF combo.

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HD7696P 
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HD7697P 
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HD7698P 


With either setup pointed in a fixed direction toward Detroit, your Toledo stations would probably break up from multipath distortion or insufficient signal strength, since the antenna(s) is/are not pointed toward Toledo. One option to solve this would be to add a rotor to the setup, so you could rotate the antenna(s) to any direction. With a rotor, you could turn the antenna(s) as needed to get the Toledo stations, the Detroit stations, the Windsor, Ontario analogs on 9 and 32 (which are slightly off-axis from the Detroit stations), WBGU-27 (PBS) from Bowling Green and WPXD-31 (ION) from Ann Arbor.


Some other things to consider:


(1) WPXD-31 (ION) is supposed to have been authorized to move its transmitter to Southfield, where the other Detroit stations are located (and change to channel 50), but that hasn't been done yet.

(2) Starting as early as August 2011, the Canadian channels will begin broadcasting in digital, and the longer-range setups with rotor would perhaps receive the digital versions of 9 and 32 from Windsor.

(3) None of the setups mentioned above will receive WLMB-5 well (probably not at all) because it is on VHF-low, which requires a VHF antenna with much longer elements that make the antenna longer and much wider at its back end, like the Winegard HD8200U (VHF-low/VHF-high/UHF combination) or the Winegard HD5030 (VHF-low and VHF-high only, in place of the YA-1713):


- http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HD8200U 

- http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HD-5030 


(4) Some people (especially those with an attic available) like to use two separate fixed-position antennas with two separate coax cables fed to an A-B switch next to the tv instead of a rotor. The cost of the second antenna is often less than that of the rotor plus rotor wire, and the smaller antenna (like the 7694) can be put in your attic (if available), pointed toward Toledo, while the larger antenna(s) (like the YA-1713 plus UHF) can be put outside and pointed toward Detroit. The advantage of the A-B switch is that you can change among antennas in an instant as opposed to waiting for an antenna on a rotor to rotate around.


- http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=05&p=SS4017 


Hope this is helpful. Good luck!


----------



## jubjub75




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gcd0865* /forum/post/19454125
> 
> 
> jubjub75:
> 
> 
> Looking at your TVFool report, if you only wanted the Toledo stations that are pretty much due east of your location, I agree with ctdish's suggestion that the Winegard HD7694P would be perfect. If you happen to have an attic that is traditional plywood/shingle construction without foil-lined insulation or other significant metal, the 7694 would probably receive your Toledo stations just fine from your attic, in case outside appearance is a significant issue.



GCD0865 - Thanks so much for this info! Looks like I need to start reading










My house is a 1 1/2 story where the upstairs is one big bedroom, so attic isn't really an option, plus I think that there is some foil-backed insulation in the roof.


I'll let you know what I figure out and how it turns out.


Thanks again!

Jeff


----------



## jlhct




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/19453691
> 
> 
> This should be a good antenna for your location:
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Antennas&sku=



Thank you for the info!


----------



## acurajeff




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jubjub75* /forum/post/19454704
> 
> 
> GCD0865 - Thanks so much for this info! Looks like I need to start reading
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My house is a 1 1/2 story where the upstairs is one big bedroom, so attic isn't really an option, plus I think that there is some foil-backed insulation in the roof.
> 
> 
> I'll let you know what I figure out and how it turns out.
> 
> 
> Thanks again!
> 
> Jeff



Jeff, If you are looking to capture Detroit channel 2, may I suggest something better than my CM3016 which no longer receives channel 2 (I cannot explain why). My CM4221 4-bay UHF antenna captures all the Bowling Green (south), Toledo (east), and Detroit (north east) stations without moving the rotor from a Detroit setting. My antennas (both) are in the attic of a 2 story story home on a mast with rotor with a CM 7777 pre-amp. I hope this practical experience helps you.


On another note, I am looking at replacting my CM3016 with a Winegard YA-1713 VHF antenna in hopes of picking up Detroit channel 2. This would mean I would remove the 3016 antenna from the rotor and mount the Winegard YA-1713 as a stationary antenna by iteself due to turning radius issues. I would then replace my CM4221 4-bay on the rotor with a DB8 8-bay (or equivalent). My only concern is I may loose the current benefit of not having to "rotor around" to get all the surrounding stations as the 8-bays have a narrower beam width. I now have the luxury of getting all UHF digital stations even though I am surrounded from all angles. Maybe someone would like to comment on this? It is my hope the additional gain from an upgrade to an 8-bay will cancel any setbacks from a narrower beam width.


----------



## gcd0865

acurajeff:


WJBK-2 originally switched from real channel VHF-2 to real channel UHF-58 when it first activated its digital signal, then switched to VHF-7 (once WXYZ left 7). If you were getting WJBK-2 when it first went digital, then you were getting it on 58, but then when it switched to 7, it dropped out for you. Did you ever do a full re-scan or manually enter in 7.1 on your tv to see if WJBK would come in?


I have a YA-1713, and it's very good for VHF-high. One thing I noticed is that VHF signals tend to be reduced more going into the attic than UHF signals. That might be why WJBK dropped off for you. If WJBK is your only problem channel, and you planned to get a YA-1713, did you consider leaving the rest of your setup exactly how you have it, and adding a stationary YA-1713 only for WJBK by connecting it through a channel 7 jointenna? Was thinking that replacing your CM3016 with a UHF-only antenna like a DB8 would lose Toledo 11 and 13 for you (unless you replaced it with a Channel Master 4228 HD, which has some VHF-high capability (due to its full-width reflector) that the DB8 does not have (due to its separated reflector)).


See:
http://www.channelmasterstore.com/Ch..._p/cm-0577.htm (good price and free shipping)
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Ant...Jointennas.htm (they're out of the channel 7 model right now, and more expensive anyway, but see the top of the three diagrams on the right)


----------



## acurajeff

gcd0865:


I am not exactly sure when I noticed WBJK, channel 2 dropped out. A few days ago I did a rescan with no antenna connected and then rescanned with the antenna and still do not receive channel 2. It is hard for me to understand I no longer receive channel 2. Maybe I am missing something here?


WBJK is my only problem. I receive everything else without moving the rotor... how convenient, especially for the upstairs TV.


My current setup is a 3016 on the bottom with a 4221 4-bay on top. I am not sure if you realized I currently have a 4-bay UHF anntenna... just figured if I am up there adding a better VHF antenna why not add a better UHF as well. My turning radius limits anything with a larger turning radius than the 3016. I was thinking maybe I could buy a Winegard YA-1713 so I could pick up WBJK... at least it would improve my odds. Of course it would have to be stationary by itself due to its size and pointed toward Detroit.


I am not too familiar with a joinantenna. Since we don't watch analog (no more ghosting issues), maybe I could just add the YA-1713 without the joinantenna and take advantage of both the YA-1713 and 3016 antennas combined together into the VHF input of the 7777 pre-amp. But then again, why not just remove the 3016 as it is adding line insertion loss and just go with the YA-1713 for VHF? That would leave my existing 4221 or upgraded DB8 on the rotor for UHF. Upgrading the UHF may result in loss of stations without moving the rotor due to the smaller beamwidth. That would be a bad lesson learned. Any thoughts?


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *acurajeff* /forum/post/19459925
> 
> 
> Upgrading the UHF may result in loss of stations without moving the rotor due to the smaller beamwidth. That would be a bad lesson learned. Any thoughts?



I get from multiple directions with the CM4228HD.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *acurajeff* /forum/post/19459925
> 
> 
> It is hard for me to understand I no longer receive channel 2. Any thoughts?



It could be FM interference. The 3016 picks up FM well. Look for a strong FM station between 88.1 and 89.9 MHz. (use FMfool) If you find that's the case try a HLSJ to filter out FM.


----------



## jubjub75




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *acurajeff* /forum/post/19459412
> 
> 
> Jeff, If you are looking to capture Detroit channel 2, may I suggest something better than my CM3016 which no longer receives channel 2 (I cannot explain why). My CM4221 4-bay UHF antenna captures all the Bowling Green (south), Toledo (east), and Detroit (north east) stations without moving the rotor from a Detroit setting. My antennas (both) are in the attic of a 2 story story home on a mast with rotor with a CM 7777 pre-amp. I hope this practical experience helps you.
> 
> 
> On another note, I am looking at replacting my CM3016 with a Winegard YA-1713 VHF antenna in hopes of picking up Detroit channel 2. This would mean I would remove the 3016 antenna from the rotor and mount the Winegard YA-1713 as a stationary antenna by iteself due to turning radius issues. I would then replace my CM4221 4-bay on the rotor with a DB8 8-bay (or equivalent). My only concern is I may loose the current benefit of not having to "rotor around" to get all the surrounding stations as the 8-bays have a narrower beam width. I now have the luxury of getting all UHF digital stations even though I am surrounded from all angles. Maybe someone would like to comment on this? It is my hope the additional gain from an upgrade to an 8-bay will cancel any setbacks from a narrower beam width.



AcuraJeff - Great info! Thanks a bunch! About where are you located? Also, if you end up upgrading, PM me if you are interested in selling off your old equipment


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *acurajeff* /forum/post/19459925
> 
> 
> gcd0865:
> 
> 
> I was thinking maybe I could buy a Winegard YA-1713 so I could pick up WBJK... at least it would improve my odds. Of course it would have to be stationary by itself due to its size and pointed toward Detroit.



The Winegard YA-1713 is only a little over 3 pounds.


----------



## acurajeff

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* 
It could be FM interference. The 3016 picks up FM well. Look for a strong FM station between 88.1 and 89.9 MHz. (use FMfool) If you find that's the case try a HLSJ to filter out FM.
Please have a look and let me know your thoughts. Thank you.


----------



## JimboG

acurajeff,


Wow, you have cookin' FM from all around you! You may get pretty decent radio reception from a simple vertical FM dipole, although you have a decent amount of adjacent channel interference and some co-channel interference.


If you have a decent directional FM antenna with a good front to back ratio and a rotor you should have a really wide variety of FM stations available to you.


That said, it looks like you have plenty of FM power coming at you from all directions. If your primary focus is TV reception rather than radio reception, you definitely might want to consider an FM trap or attenuator. The VHF Hi Low separator-joiner from Holland or Pico Macom would work well for less than $4. Winegard's TV-FM separator combiner would work as well.


You have all sorts of strong FM stations from all directions, both in the non-commercial band (channels in the 80s) and in the commercial band (channels in the nineties through 107.9). Try to knock out the FM reception from your TV antenna and get a dedicated FM antenna if you listen to much radio programming. {You really may want to get a dedicated FM antenna: it looks like you have a wide variety of choices in your location!







}


----------



## acurajeff




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimboG* /forum/post/19463503
> 
> 
> acurajeff,
> 
> 
> If your primary focus is TV reception rather than radio reception, you definitely might want to consider an FM trap or attenuator. The VHF Hi Low separator-joiner from Holland or Pico Macom would work well for less than $4. Winegard's TV-FM separator combiner would work as well.
> 
> 
> You have all sorts of strong FM stations from all directions, both in the non-commercial band (channels in the 80s) and in the commercial band (channels in the nineties through 107.9). Try to knock out the FM reception from your TV antenna and get a dedicated FM antenna if you listen to much radio programming. {You really may want to get a dedicated FM antenna: it looks like you have a wide variety of choices in your location!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> }



Jimbo:

I am currently using a Channel Master Titan Series 7777 pre-amp that has served me well over the years. The 7777 has an FM trap switch that I am not using. It was never a problem so I opted not to trap the FM to be able to use the 3016 antenna for FM. Although I really don't listen to much FM. I could turn the trap on if that is the recommendation. It would avoid additional line loss for another external trap. It will be interesting to hear back from *Mr. Towerguy* as he is the one that requested I run the FM fool.


My current focus is to receive a 53 mile away VHF station, WJBK. I actually was able to pull it in last night ironically but cannot get it when I am pointed on the other Detroit stations. I have something strange going on that I just can't put my finger on. I am thinking I will change out the 7777 with a new one as maybe the VHF (CM 3016 input) side of the 7777 unit is not working properly; the 4221 UHF 4-bay pulls in all Detroit UHF with no problem. I am even getting Cleveland 5.1 (UHF 15); unbelieveable. Someone told me they had a similar issue with the 7777 performance and the problem was resolved when it was replaced with a new one. Maybe something happened when I had the 3016 on its side sitting in fiberglass insulation or maybe an electrical storm in the past did a job on it... although I wouldn't think so since my rig is in the attic but I really don't know.


----------



## klandry7

Try setting the pre-amp to combined and put your VHF antenna in that input.


----------



## gcd0865

Acurajeff:


One possibility is that you lost WJBK when it switched its digital signal from UHF-58 to VHF-7, because VHF signals seem to lose more of their strength than UHF signals going into an attic (at least in my experience). When I temporarily moved my YA-1713 and 91XG from the attic outside to chimney height for a quick test a while back, my signal strength on UHF stations at 50-65-mile distance with the 91XG only improved from around a marginal 30-35 on my tv's meter (with dropouts) to around 40-45 (not much of an improvement, but enough to ensure reliable daytime locks). But when I tested the YA-1713 on VHF-high 11 and 13 from Toledo (which are both 65 miles from me), their signals went from below 30 (no signal lock) in the attic to 64 outside at chimney height (a much bigger improvement). Other people have reported similar findings, and many VHF stations have had to drastically raise their power because original studies underestimated VHF signal loss going into buildings (such as for set-top rabbit ears and attic antennas).


Another possibility: I had forgotten that you're using a CM4221 atop your CM3016. But the 3016 is already a combination VHF-UHF antenna, which makes me wonder how you are combining the two antennas (maybe using dual amp inputs, just a regular splitter in reverse into a single combined amp input, or maybe a UVSJ into a single combined amp input; maybe your combined/separate amp switch needs to be checked). Depending on how you are combining, you might be creating multipath distortion that's knocking out WJBK. Combining dissimilar antennas through a single amp input or a regular splitter in reverse can cause multipath distortion, since the combined antennas are not identical. If you're combining in such a way as to use both antennas for VHF, perhaps that distortion is just enough to knock out WJBK for you. A quick test that might be valuable would be to temporarily connect only the 3016 to your amp (or even bypass the amp and connect the 3016 directly to your tv) to see if WJBK-7 comes in (might require a new scan).


Also, perhaps the 7777 amp is becoming overloaded for some reason. Some people report that the Winegard HDP-269 amp (which has lower gain) is more tolerant to overload, but maybe you need the extra amplification for your more distant stations, especially from the attic. Maybe a temporary test without the amp in line (I'm pretty sure you'd have to take out both the power supply downstairs and the power injector near the antenna) might provide some useful information. I'd be interested in your signal strength readings from the attic with and without your amp, as I've been wondering whether adding an amp to my system would avoid the need for me to eventually move my antennas outside to the chimney.


A jointenna is a special type of signal combiner that includes a frequency trap for efficiently combining the signal from one channel only with the signals for all other channels from another antenna to avoid multipath distortion from the combination (of the type you'd get from using a regular splitter in reverse). If you used one with a YA-1713 (or even with your 3016), it might provide a better chance of getting WJBK from your attic. As you've suggested, perhaps using only a fixed YA-1713 in the attic pointed toward Detroit would still receive Toledo 11 and 13 just fine even though their off-axis (only a test will tell).


Regarding bumping up from the 4-bay 4221 to an 8-bay for UHF, the 8-bays are supposed to have narrower beamwidth than the 4-bays, so it's tough to predict. Do you have insufficient signal strength on your distant UHF stations right now with the 4-bay? If so, the 8-bay would probably be an improvement, but again, only a test will tell.


One more thing: are your antennas mounted absolutely as high as you can mount them in your attic? With my attic antennas, every bit of height ended up being very important, so mine are hung at the very highest (central part) of the attic on 1" PVC pipes screwed into the rafters, with the antennas about an inch from touching the rafters. Maybe removing your rotor and mounting in a fixed position will get you a foot or two more height, which might help. Another thing that might help (depending on how your attic is constructed and what direction you need) is positioning your antennas to point through the gable ends instead of through the shingles.


----------



## Falcon_77

The 8800 is performing well for me in the attic, but I've decided that I'd like to have a real upper VHF antenna on the new rotator as well. My Y5-7-13 is simply too long to be turned, but something like the AD C5 would fit nicely on the mast, right below the 8800.

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Antennas&sku= 


What is the word on the street about the C5? I'm not expecting YA1713 class performance, but if it's even 10dB better than the 8800 at 7-13, it should be most acceptable.


Thanks,


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/19467262
> 
> 
> The 8800 is performing well for me in the attic, but I've decided that I'd like to have a real upper VHF antenna on the new rotator as well. My Y5-7-13 is simply too long to be turned, but something like the AD C5 would fit nicely on the mast, right below the 8800.
> 
> 
> What is the word on the street about the C5? I'm not expecting YA1713 class performance, but if it's even 10dB better than the 8800 at 7-13, it should be most acceptable.
> 
> 
> Thanks,



I looked into the C5 as a compliment to my C4. Like all of the ClearStream line, it will perform extremely well relative to its size, but will not approach big Yagi/LPDA numbers. I think the C5 is good for about 6dB on 7-13, a little less than the smaller of the 7-13 Yagis from Winegard and Antennacraft.

The ClearStreams are ideal for attics, and some attics will fit a rotator install because of the size and shape of the antennas. But the price is a joke compared to Yagis.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *acurajeff* /forum/post/19464219
> 
> 
> It will be interesting to hear back from *Mr. Towerguy*



Your FM signals are too strong for an unprotected 7777 preamp. The FM trap in the 7777 is not very effective on the low end of the FM band. Your choices are an external FM trap/traps, a lower gain preamp, and/or an antenna without FM reception ability.


----------



## acurajeff




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gcd0865* /forum/post/19465966
> 
> 
> Acurajeff:
> 
> 
> Another possibility: I had forgotten that you're using a CM4221 atop your CM3016. But the 3016 is already a combination VHF-UHF antenna, which makes me wonder how you are combining the two antennas (maybe using dual amp inputs, just a regular splitter in reverse into a single combined amp input, or maybe a UVSJ into a single combined amp input; maybe your combined/separate amp switch needs to be checked). Depending on how you are combining, you might be creating multipath distortion that's knocking out WJBK. Combining dissimilar antennas through a single amp input or a regular splitter in reverse can cause multipath distortion, since the combined antennas are not identical. If you're combining in such a way as to use both antennas for VHF, perhaps that distortion is just enough to knock out WJBK for you. A quick test that might be valuable would be to temporarily connect only the 3016 to your amp (or even bypass the amp and connect the 3016 directly to your tv) to see if WJBK-7 comes in (might require a new scan).



I am using a CM 7777 pre-amp. This amp has separate UHF and VHF inputs. The amp is feed with RG-6 from the CM3016 to the VHF connector. The 4-bay 4221 feeds the 7777's UHF connector. There shouldn't be any issues there as I have been operating in this manner before the digital era. Any issues from your side with this?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gcd0865* /forum/post/19465966
> 
> 
> Also, perhaps the 7777 amp is becoming overloaded for some reason. Some people report that the Winegard HDP-269 amp (which has lower gain) is more tolerant to overload, but maybe you need the extra amplification for your more distant stations, especially from the attic. Maybe a temporary test without the amp in line (I'm pretty sure you'd have to take out both the power supply downstairs and the power injector near the antenna) might provide some useful information. I'd be interested in your signal strength readings from the attic with and without your amp, as I've been wondering whether adding an amp to my system would avoid the need for me to eventually move my antennas outside to the chimney.



I have not tried this. I do know when I added the 7777 years ago (analog era), I noticed a big improvement. No issues at all last year. I did have to lower the 4221 closer to the 3016 on the mast this year as it was hitting the roof. I know this is not good but the 3016 and 4221 are now mounted with virtually no vertically spacing between them. I hope that is not the culprit.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gcd0865* /forum/post/19465966
> 
> 
> A jointenna is a special type of signal combiner that includes a frequency trap for efficiently combining the signal from one channel only with the signals for all other channels from another antenna to avoid multipath distortion from the combination (of the type you'd get from using a regular splitter in reverse). If you used one with a YA-1713 (or even with your 3016), it might provide a better chance of getting WJBK from your attic. As you've suggested, perhaps using only a fixed YA-1713 in the attic pointed toward Detroit would still receive Toledo 11 and 13 just fine even though their off-axis (only a test will tell).



I am probably going to end up trying a stationary YA-1713 as we discussed. I am still trying to uderstand why I have to mov the rotor away from Channel 2 more toward east and then channel two pops in. I know I am moving away from Channel 2's tower because most of the Detroit UHF channels drop off. Sounds like I might be having a reflection issue or channel 2 has a repeater tower in a different location? Do you still think a joinantenna is a potential solution?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gcd0865* /forum/post/19465966
> 
> 
> Regarding bumping up from the 4-bay 4221 to an 8-bay for UHF, the 8-bays are supposed to have narrower beamwidth than the 4-bays, so it's tough to predict. Do you have insufficient signal strength on your distant UHF stations right now with the 4-bay? If so, the 8-bay would probably be an improvement, but again, only a test will tell..



The four bay works wonderful. In fact I am shocked how well it works. I can point the rig toward the Detroit towers and pick up all Detroit, Ann Arbor , Toledo, and Bowling Green, OH stations without screwing around with the rotor. The other half has a great appreciation for this benefit. Someone mentioned don't try to fix something that is not broke. The only advantage with upgrading to an 8-bay is the fun of rotoring around once in a blue moon to capture farther stations.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gcd0865* /forum/post/19465966
> 
> 
> One more thing: are your antennas mounted absolutely as high as you can mount them in your attic? With my attic antennas, every bit of height ended up being very important, so mine are hung at the very highest (central part) of the attic on 1" PVC pipes screwed into the rafters, with the antennas about an inch from touching the rafters. Maybe removing your rotor and mounting in a fixed position will get you a foot or two more height, which might help. Another thing that might help (depending on how your attic is constructed and what direction you need) is positioning your antennas to point through the gable ends instead of through the shingles.



My attic limits the height to about a foot off the floor. The antennas are mounted right above rotor.


Please accept my sincere appreciation for your time and suggestions.


----------



## acurajeff

Quote:

Originally Posted by *klandry7* 
Try setting the pre-amp to combined and put your VHF antenna in that input.
My 3016 VHF antenna is connected to the VHF input of the CM7777 preamp. The 4221 4-bay UHF antenna is connected to the UHF input of the CM7777 preamp.


The FM trap is not selected.


----------



## acurajeff

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* 
Your FM signals are too strong for an unprotected 7777 preamp. The FM trap in the 7777 is not very effective on the low end of the FM band. Your choices are an external FM trap/traps, a lower gain preamp, and/or an antenna without FM reception ability.
You bring an interesting point to the table. Obviously I have a lot of FM signals, but do I really have a very strong signal that could prevent my reception of WKBD (VHF 7)?


----------



## Falcon_77

If at all possible, engage that FM trap! If that doesn't work, using a HLSJ as a high pass filter, as others have recommended, is a good idea. They are cheap and will knock down everything below 7.

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...Splitters&sku= 


I expect that the strong FM signals are swamping the 7777, causing IMD3 all over the bands, reducing sensitivity.


----------



## Falcon_77

Quote:

Originally Posted by *LithOTA* 
The ClearStreams are ideal for attics, and some attics will fit a rotator install because of the size and shape of the antennas. But the price is a joke compared to Yagis.
Thanks for your input. Yeah, even $80 on sale is difficult to justify. I could stack two YA1713's for that price, but I can't rotate them.


It might be time just to go back to my original idea. Mount a fixed upper VHF antenna and just leave the 8800 on the rotator.


----------



## Falcon_77

Quote:

Originally Posted by *acurajeff* 
You bring an interesting point to the table. Obviously I have a lot of FM signals, but do I really have a very strong signal that could prevent my reception of WKBD (VHF 7)?
Some more thoughts:


Did you check your TV Fool plot? I tried a general Zip code plot and you may have some pretty strong DTV locals. Probably more than the 7777 is made to handle. So an attenuator or higher input pre-amp, might be something to consider as well.


How is reception w/o the pre-amp? They can be difficult to bypass if you can't easily get to the pre-amp itself. Just unplugging the PIM (power inserter) won't work.


----------



## acurajeff

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* 
Some more thoughts:


Did you check your TV Fool plot? I tried a general Zip code plot and you may have some pretty strong DTV locals. Probably more than the 7777 is made to handle. So an attenuator or higher input pre-amp, might be something to consider as well.


How is reception w/o the pre-amp? They can be difficult to bypass if you can't easily get to the pre-amp itself. Just unplugging the PIM (power inserter) won't work.
Well lets see. I worked Youngstown, Ohio Erie, PA, Cleveland, OH and Flint, MI this evening all on a 4221 4 bay in my attic just outside Toledo, OH. How about that. Of course it is all due to conditions.


Obviously my UHF is working perfectly. It is just the VHF that I seem to struggle with this year... never before. I am starting to think the VHF side of the 7777 amp took a dump on me.


----------



## Digital Rules

I seriously doubt it's the 7777. The 3016 is not really a great long range antenna, plus you may have some FM issues. I would first try what others have recommended & engage the trap on the preamp & see if that improves things.


My next step would be to replace the 3016 with a higher gain VHF antenna like the Winegard YA-1713. A VHF-HI only antenna would pretty much eliminate any worries with FM. You need all the gain you can get if the antenna will remain in the attic.


----------



## acurajeff




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* /forum/post/19469014
> 
> 
> If at all possible, engage that FM trap! If that doesn't work, using a HLSJ as a high pass filter, as others have recommended, is a good idea. They are cheap and will knock down everything below 7.
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...Splitters&sku=
> 
> 
> I expect that the strong FM signals are swamping the 7777, causing IMD3 all over the bands, reducing sensitivity.



I may have to try engaging the 7777's FM trap and see what happens. I don't think a HLSJ would be good for my application as I would like to still receive a low power VHF station that is broadcasted on channel 5.


I appreciate the advice. Thanks.


----------



## gcd0865

acurajeff:


Okay, I see what you're doing now. Even though your 3016 is a combination VHF-UHF antenna, by feeding the 3016 into the VHF port of your amp, you're actually only using the VHF capability of that antenna (with the amp blocking out any UHF signals coming into that port). And by feeding the 4221 into the UHF port of your amp, you're using only the 4221 for UHF. Nothing wrong with that, no multipath distortion problem by hooking it up that way. It's tough to say why rotating the 3016 to the east (more toward Toledo) brings in WJBK-7 (channel 2); maybe it's a signal reflection inside your attic, a neighbor's house, signal overload on VHF only in the exact direction of Detroit, or some interaction with your 4221.


But if you get WJBK just fine when your 3016 is rotated to the east a bit (but that messes up your UHFs), I can suggest two options. One option is to take your 3016 off your rotor and hang it separately (in a fixed position) at the best location in your attic, and pointed in the best direction, that maximizes signal strength on WJBK. To test in advance, you could move your 3016 around your attic a bit to find a "sweet spot" (in attic location, height and aiming direction) for WJBK, with someone else downstairs yelling signal strength numbers up to you in the attic as you move around. When you find the best spot for WJBK, double check to make sure that 5 from the northwest, and 11 and 13 from Toledo are all coming in fine as well (they should, since you say they are now when you're rotating east a bit). Then, drill a pilot hole in a rafter directly above where the 3016's mounting bracket needs to be and screw a 3 or 4-foot-long piece of 1" PVC pipe into a rafter to mount it right there. Presumably, you'd get maximum height for your 3016 by taking it off the rotor, and having a few feet of distance from your 4221 would avoid antenna interaction. Probably best to not mount the 3016 in a location where either antenna would end up "aiming through" the other antenna for one or more stations (including considering the various directions where you might rotate your 4221). If your best reception of WJBK is a little to the east of where you expect, that direction might be perfect for CBC-9 from Windsor at the same time. This assumes that you're okay with not being able to rotate the 3016 for any other VHF stations, but I don't think there are any others in range of you (except for WLMB-5, which might come in anyway when the 3016 is pointed in the opposite direction).


Another option (if you really wanted to keep the 3016 on your rotor) is to offset the aiming directions of your 3016 and 4221 on your rotor mast by whatever amount you need to make it work for all stations at the same time. That way, you'd have all of your stations at the same time, but still keep the ability to rotate both antennas for other stations. Nobody says your two antennas have to be pointed in the same direction on the rotor mast (as long as you can keep track of where they're pointing). Then you can decide whether to upgrade the 4221 to an 8-bay for catching farther UHF stations.


Regarding the jointenna, you would only use one if you wanted to add a single station only (like WJBK) from a separate antenna, while receiving all other stations (VHF and UHF) on one or more other antennas. In other words, the jointenna is like a single-channel signal inserter designed to insert the signal of that one channel without interference. Depending on how you're hooking everything up, you have to place the jointenna at the right location in your RG-6 wiring scheme relative to your amp as well so you don't knock out any desired stations. The more I think about it, you probably don't want a jointenna at all, because you have WLMB-5 on VHF-low and two VHF-high channels (7 and 9) that might both need the added range of the YA-1713 (instead of trying to get them with the 3016). Since a YA-1713 won't get WLMB-5 at all, you'll still need your 3016 (either keeping it on your rotor or putting it in a fixed position elsewhere pointing northwest) for channel 5. If you bought a YA-1713 for fixed-position mounting, maybe it would get WJBK-7, plus 9, 11 and 13, all from a fixed position. If so, then you'd join the YA-1713 and 3016 with an HLSJ fed into the VHF port of your amp. Gets rather complicated; maybe just keeping your 3016 as you have it for all VHFs (with either your 4221 or a new 8-bay for UHFs) and just offsetting their directions a little on the same mast is best (and cheapest)...


----------



## acurajeff

gcd0865:


I want to compliment you on your ability to sift through all my postings and sythesize it and then provide 3 technically sound potential solutions specific to my application. I was humbled and impressed! We are lucky to have access to someone of your caliber.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gcd0865* /forum/post/19472187
> 
> 
> acurajeff:
> 
> 
> The more I think about it, you probably don't want a jointenna at all, because you have WLMB-5 on VHF-low and two VHF-high channels (7 and 9) that might both need the added range of the YA-1713 (instead of trying to get them with the 3016). Since a YA-1713 won't get WLMB-5 at all, you'll still need your 3016 (either keeping it on your rotor or putting it in a fixed position elsewhere pointing northwest) for channel 5. If you bought a YA-1713 for fixed-position mounting, maybe it would get WJBK-7, plus 9, 11 and 13, all from a fixed position. If so, then you'd join the YA-1713 and 3016 with an HLSJ fed into the VHF port of your amp. Gets rather complicated; maybe just keeping your 3016 as you have it for all VHFs (with either your 4221 or a new 8-bay for UHFs) and just offsetting their directions a little on the same mast is best (and cheapest)...



You brought a completely new idea to the table that I have not considered. I really like your idea of mounting a YA-1713 in a stationary position (due to turning radius limitations) for channels 7, 9, 11, and 13. Channel 9 may go digital next year which would be a plus. And then using the existing 3016 on the rotor (for channel 5) with an HLSJ fed into the VHF port of the amp. Of course the 4221 still feeds the UHF connection of the 7777 amp.


I am not familar with a HLSJ and how to wire the above recommendation to the VHF input. Would you mind me asking you to help explain this in detail along with any drawbacks such as weaker signals due to insertion loss of another component. Could this introduce multipath?


Thank you very much.


----------



## gcd0865

acurajeff:


Thanks for the kind compliments - I'm glad to help...


An HLSJ is a band separator that allows you to combine a VHF-low antenna with a VHF-high antenna together into a full-VHF-band antenna connection (like the VHF input of your amp or even the VHF input to a UVSJ) without multipath interference and with low loss:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HLSJ 


Each input blocks out the band intended for the other input to prevent interference. Same way that a UVSJ works to combine VHF and UHF bands.


For your situation, you would run a first RG-6 line from your YA-1713 to the "HI" side, and that would contribute anything you receive from VHF-high channels 7-13 (which for you will be 7, 9, 11 and 13). You'd then connect a second RG-6 line from your 3016 to the "LO" side of the HLSJ, so that the 3016 would contribute anything received on VHF-low channels 2-6 (which for you will only be WLMB-5). Even though your 3016 can also receive VHF-high (as it does for you now), the HLSJ blocks the 3016's VHF-high contribution, so the VHF-high signals are only provided (interference-free) by the YA-1713. You'd then run a third RG-6 line from the "LINE" output on the HLSJ to the VHF input on your amp. Probably best to test where you want your antennas one at a time first (to make sure you get what you think you should be getting) and then combine with the RG-6 lines, to optimize location and minimize line lengths, but the HLSJ is itself a very low-loss device.


You might find that the best situation is having both the YA-1713 and 3016 mounted separately in fixed positions. Maybe you might point a YA-1713 to the northeast to get 7, 9, 11 and 13 and point your 3016 to the northwest for channel 5 only. You can't rotate the YA-1713 for anything else on VHF-high anyway (like maybe 10 from Lansing/Jackson, 12 from Flint or 8 from Cleveland) unless you put it outside, and the HLSJ prevents the 3016 from contributing anything on VHF-high, so having it on a rotor wouldn't do anything for you (since there aren't any other VHF-low stations around). And the only way to have any rotatable VHF (low and/or high) capability anyway would be to use only the 3016 on a rotor without an HLSJ. Even if you didn't use an HLSJ, I doubt that rotating your 3016 to the northwest would get you 10 from your attic anyway, but you might want to check that before proceeding.


Then you could decide whether your 4221 (kept alone on your rotor for occasional distant stations, and fed directly into the UHF input of your amp) is good enough, or whether you want to substitute an 8-bay. Sorry I don't really have much experience on whether switching your UHF antenna to an 8-bay might cause you to lose some off-axis stations (it might, tough to say).


----------



## acurajeff




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gcd0865* /forum/post/19473791
> 
> 
> 
> You might find that the best situation is having both the YA-1713 and 3016 mounted separately in fixed positions. Maybe you might point a YA-1713 to the northeast to get 7, 9, 11 and 13 and point your 3016 to the northwest for channel 5 only. You can't rotate the YA-1713 for anything else on VHF-high anyway (like maybe 10 from Lansing/Jackson, 12 from Flint or 8 from Cleveland) unless you put it outside, and the HLSJ prevents the 3016 from contributing anything on VHF-high, so having it on a rotor wouldn't do anything for you (since there aren't any other VHF-low stations around). And the only way to have any rotatable VHF (low and/or high) capability anyway would be to use only the 3016 on a rotor without an HLSJ. Even if you didn't use an HLSJ, I doubt that rotating your 3016 to the northwest would get you 10 from your attic anyway, but you might want to check that before proceeding.
> 
> 
> Then you could decide whether your 4221 (kept alone on your rotor for occasional distant stations, and fed directly into the UHF input of your amp) is good enough, or whether you want to substitute an 8-bay. Sorry I don't really have much experience on whether switching your UHF antenna to an 8-bay might cause you to lose some off-axis stations (it might, tough to say).



Great explanation. I think you would be great writing user manuals.


The 3016 has a VHF low average gain of 1.2dB (7.9dB VHF high average gain) according to the sheet I received from Channel Master years ago. I wonder if I should/could pick up a VHF low antenna with better gain than the 3016 that would still fit in a 44" turning radius (on the rotating mast)?


Any downside to going with the 3016 and YA-1713 combination described in your recommedation?


Again, I really appreciate all your sound suggestions and the fact you have an understanding of the situation.


----------



## gcd0865

Thanks again for the kind compliments...


The 3016's 1.2 dB gain for VHF-low isn't that much, but from checking with TVFool for the 48144 FMFool zip code you previously posted, you only have one VHF-low station (WLMB-5) within 125 miles anyway, and WLMB is quite strong for you. So, I'd think that mounting your 3016 in a fixed position pointing due west (I previously said northwest, which was wrong) would probably give you a good signal on WLMB-5, so there's no real reason to do anything more for VHF-low. A dedicated VHF-low antenna would be too huge for your attic anyway:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=YA6260 (72" turning radius)


The 3016's 7.9 dB gain for VHF-high is actually decent. If you click on the "specifications" tab for the YA-1713 (below), you'll see that its VHF-high gain only ranges from 9.1 to 10.3 over channels 7 to 13, which isn't that much more:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=YA1713 


Again, if you could find a northeast-ish aiming direction (either while mounted on your rotor mast (even if offset-aimed from your 4221) or while mounted separately in a fixed position) where the 3016 received 7, 9, 11 and 13, while still getting 5 acceptably off the backside, you could always use that without an HLSJ for all your VHFs (low and high). But if you don't have acceptable VHF-high gain from your 3016, or maybe reception is marginal, then adding a YA-1713 in a fixed position and an HLSJ for connecting a westward-aimed 3016 for channel 5 only, would be the best upgrade choice, in my opinion. The only possible disadvantage that I can see is the possibility that the higher gain of the YA-1713 will result in narrower beamwidth, such that you can't find a fixed northeast-ish aiming direction where 7, 9, 11 and 13 will all come in at the same time. Unfortunately, that's just something that's tough to predict.


If you do decide to get a YA-1713 and also take your 3016 off your rotor, mount the 3016 as the west-most antenna in your attic (while also pointing it west), assuming your attic configuration will accommodate that. That way, it won't have to "aim through" your other antennas, and you don't really have anything else due west of you anyway. My guess is that, even though you'd mount a YA-1713 as high as you could in your attic, its long length will nevertheless cause it to be considerably lower than your 4221 (which should be as high as possible at a high central part of your attic), so placement probably won't be much of an issue between the YA-1713 and 4221.


----------



## acurajeff

gcd0865:


Great feedback. Thank you again.


Does the HLSJ degregate any signal of near channels? I ask this because the net gain of going to the YA-1713 from the 3016 is roughly 1.2db for channel 7(although the 3016 gain I provided is the average gain for the high VHF).


----------



## gcd0865

Insertion loss for the HLSJ is given as 0.5 dB max, according to the specs:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HLSJ 


So, adding the YA-1713 with the HLSJ should still be beneficial.


Regarding channel separation, since the division between the VHF-low and and VHF-high bands is a lot (with the whole FM band and then some in between), you won't have to worry about losing any signal on the bordering channels 6 and 7 by virtue of adding in the HLSJ.


----------



## ChocoLab

Quick question, guys... Googled and couldn't really find an answer.


Does anyone know what the effective bandwidth would be for a good cut-channel upper VHF antenna?


I'm DXing for a Channel 8, and to a much lesser degree 9. I found a supplier near me who has a couple of the old Wade cut-channels laying around -- a 10-element 9, but only a smaller 5-element 8.


If I got the bigger channel 9 one, and say Wade's figures are accurate that the gain is about 10 db, what do you think the gain for channel 8 would be? Is it possible that it could be as high as the smaller 7.5 they show for the smaller version? Or would it even be that much?


Thanks!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Does anyone know what the effective bandwidth would be for a good cut-channel upper VHF antenna?



That will depend on the basic design of the antenna. A simple dipole type may be only plus or minus one channel. A folded dipole one may be plus or minus 3 channels. And an LPDA type may be even more.


----------



## acurajeff

Quote:

Originally Posted by *gcd0865* 
Again, if you could find a northeast-ish aiming direction (either while mounted on your rotor mast (even if offset-aimed from your 4221) or while mounted separately in a fixed position) where the 3016 received 7, 9, 11 and 13, while still getting 5 acceptably off the backside, you could always use that without an HLSJ for all your VHFs (low and high). But if you don't have acceptable VHF-high gain from your 3016, or maybe reception is marginal, then adding a YA-1713 in a fixed position and an HLSJ for connecting a westward-aimed 3016 for channel 5 only, would be the best upgrade choice, in my opinion.
I am waiting for all the tropospheric ducting to die down so I can do some testing of my existing setup. The Toledo area is light up like a Christmas tree.

http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo.html#hour24 


I would like to see if I can receive 7, 9, 11 and 13, while still getting 5 acceptably off the backside. If so, then the easiest solution (as you kindly suggested) is to have an offset between the aiming directions of the stacked 4221 and 3016. The tropospheric ducting is bringing in so many digital stations from three other metropolitan areas that it is skewing any testing I attempted.


The last couple of days I have been pulling in stations (full digital for hours) from Lansing, Bay City and Jackson (10). I was surprised I pulled in Jackson 10.1 which broadcasts on VHF 10 with the 3016 in an attic. Especially since I was having difficulty getting VHF channel 2.1 (7) out of Detroit. Go figure.


----------



## smiles233

i am considering trying to get albany stations from my location about 76.4 miles away according to tvfool.com . i currently have an antennacraft 4 bay for uhf syracuse/utica ny channels which come in decent. Any tips on what antenna/pre amp would give me the best shot at getting these albany stations. wrgb6 cbs for nfl games . so a vhf antenna is what i am thinking


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smiles233* /forum/post/19482443
> 
> 
> i am considering trying to get albany stations from my location about 76.4 miles away according to tvfool.com . i currently have an antennacraft 4 bay for uhf syracuse/utica ny channels which come in decent. Any tips on what antenna/pre amp would give me the best shot at getting these albany stations. wrgb6 cbs for nfl games . so a vhf antenna is what i am thinking



You will have a chance with a big antenna and a good preamp. If you do not need UHF, the Winegard HD-5030 should work with a AP-3700 preamp if you have a long cable run.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ChocoLab* /forum/post/19479688
> 
> 
> Quick question, guys... Googled and couldn't really find an answer.
> 
> 
> Does anyone know what the effective bandwidth would be for a good cut-channel upper VHF antenna?
> 
> 
> I'm DXing for a Channel 8, and to a much lesser degree 9. I found a supplier near me who has a couple of the old Wade cut-channels laying around -- a 10-element 9, but only a smaller 5-element 8.
> 
> 
> If I got the bigger channel 9 one, and say Wade's figures are accurate that the gain is about 10 db, what do you think the gain for channel 8 would be? Is it possible that it could be as high as the smaller 7.5 they show for the smaller version? Or would it even be that much?
> 
> 
> Thanks!



Bandwidth of Wade Single-Channel VHF Yagi antennas can be found here:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/WadeSCY.html 

Note that Wade also made a *SIMILAR LOOKING* Full-Band Hi-VHF Yagi (J105) and LPDA Antennas:
http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/VHFHigh.htm 


FYI: Wade Single-Channel UHF LPDA antenna bandwidths can be found here:
http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/jseriesuhf.pdf 


DIY Yagi's can vary quite a bit from the very narrow band types designed using

K7MEM's On-Line Calculator to the fairly broadband types OPTIMIZED using various

other calculators (e.g. K6STI's Yagi Optimizer). Examples found here:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/19479810
> 
> 
> That will depend on the basic design of the antenna. A simple dipole type may be only plus or minus one channel. A folded dipole one may be plus or minus 3 channels. And an LPDA type may be even more.



Although Folded Dipole Yagi may have wider bandwidth than simple Dipole, I've only seen SMALL differences.


----------



## arxaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Falcon_77* 
...What is the word on the street about the C5?...
This might be of interest:
http://www.antennahacks.com/Comparis...F_Shootout.htm


----------



## wildwillie6

Can someone update me on the current thinking on the ChannelMaster 4228HD? I remember when it first came out, some users reported it wasn't as good as its predecessor, the 4228. There was some simple modification that needed to be done -- I don't remember what. Here's a post from about then: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=9095 . My question, prompted by that antenna shootout, is this: Did ChannelMaster fix that problem so that a 4228HD out of the box is just fine?


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wildwillie6* /forum/post/19502806
> 
> 
> Can someone update me on the current thinking on the ChannelMaster 4228HD? I remember when it first came out, some users reported it wasn't as good as its predecessor, the 4228.....
> 
> 
> ......Did ChannelMaster fix that problem so that a 4228HD out of the box is just fine?



Based on *purely anectdotal evidence from what I've seen and from a few I've installed* [YMMV], I would say they either fixed something, or something was wrong with an early test I saw online. When the new "HD" model came out, those tests convinced me not to use the 4228HD for a long time. But recently, I saw one installed and working surprisingly well in a place where the TVFool mapping tool showed that nothing would probably work.


This test contradicts an earlier one you may have seen:
http://www.dtvusaforum.com/antenna-r...html#post45346 

If this test is to be believed and from seeing the 4228HD work well in very deep fringe, I think it is a good choice in many situations. If my current old-school 4228 ever gets damaged, I plan to replace it with a 4228HD.


----------



## caseybea

Hi all! hoping someone can assist. I think the problem is actually easier than I've been making it, and need someone's input to verify. The type of issue I'm having is I think getting to be pretty common.


So, to date I've had the same setup for a few years: A (actually, pretty decent) Radioshack antenna mounted in my garage's attic. I think this is the one: http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=3808570 .


In the house, the signal is split 3 ways. Up until recently, I've gotten really great reception - two different hdtv's and my computer's tv tuner. The cable runs are not very long, maybe 50 feet. No reception issues at all.


Now I have a tivo premiere, and I'm having a heck of a time. For a long time it might be fine, but then I'll get pixelation, and signals dropping to zero, then back - up and down, up and down.


To date, I've assumed old-school thinking-- that I wasn't getting enough signal to the tivo. Maybe a tuner inside that doesn't work as well, or... In recent weeks, I've tried amplifiers, etc- no dice.


I am about to move my antenna from the garage attic to the rooftop - thinking I need a 'cleaner' signal instead of a stringer one. garage roof is nothing unusual-- no metal. (But... I'm wondering... do I need to? My signals are quite strong..)


But then... I saw the fmfool report. Um.. my guess now is that I'm being hammered by FM, and that my tivo premiere doesn't necessarily have a worse tuner, just maybe a more sensitive one?


Should I use an HLSJ or...? Looking for expertise. The channels I want are all in the same direction (NNE)-- Milwaukee is easy that way, ALL the antennas are on the northeast side by lake michigan.


my tvfool: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a3934477b5cb 


fmfool attached.


help!


----------



## arxaw

All digital tuners are not created equal. You may have FM interference and the tivo may not deal with FM interference as well as your old tuner did.


Two things you could do to reduce FM interference:

1. Add an HLSJ or FM trap.

2. Replace your all-channel "TV/FM" antenna with a VHF-Hi+UHF antenna.
This much smaller antenna would be sufficient for your strong signals to the NNE, and it doesn't pick up FM well at all, unlike your current antenna.


I would try the HLSJ or FM trap first.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I would say they either fixed something, or something was wrong with an early test I saw online.



Hard to say, as from what Ive also read, quite a few CM4228HDs look to be bent or damaged from shipping or elsewhere.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> garage roof is nothing unusual-- no metal. (But... I'm wondering... do I need to? My signals are quite strong..)



They are quite strong, but still you lose from 6 to 24 db in an attic. And youre losing 7 db from the 3 way splitter and another 2 to 3 db from the 50 ft coax. It adds up. You could try a preamp with a FM trap, but your FM stations are not nearly as strong as mine, and I have no problems. But go ahead and try a FM trap or HLSJ (cheaper to move the antenna to an outside mount than buy a preamp, unless you have a difficult mounting situation)


Like arxaw said, I also think that the main problem is that your Tivo's tuner is most likely crappy.



> Quote:
> In recent weeks, I've tried amplifiers, etc- no dice.



No surprise if youve tried the inexpensive distribution amps, like the ones sold at Lowes, Walmart Home Depot, Radio Shack, they can exacerbate the problem.


----------



## The Hound

If you're looking for an install price, try asking in your local HDTV thread.

Someone there can hook you up with an installer.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/19506284
> 
> 
> ...from what Ive also read, quite a few CM4228HDs look to be bent or damaged from shipping or elsewhere.



The 4228HDs I've seen in the past few months came from Amazon , Crutchfield & Walmart . All were shipped in *very* heavy corrugated boxes and were in good shape upon arrival.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *caseybea* /forum/post/19503949
> 
> 
> Hi all! hoping someone can assist. I think the problem is actually easier than I've been making it, and need someone's input to verify. The type of issue I'm having is I think getting to be pretty common.
> 
> 
> So, to date I've had the same setup for a few years: A (actually, pretty decent) Radioshack antenna mounted in my garage's attic. I think this is the one: http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=3808570 .
> 
> 
> In the house, the signal is split 3 ways. Up until recently, I've gotten really great reception - two different hdtv's and my computer's tv tuner. The cable runs are not very long, maybe 50 feet. No reception issues at all.
> 
> 
> Now I have a tivo premiere, and I'm having a heck of a time. For a long time it might be fine, but then I'll get pixelation, and signals dropping to zero, then back - up and down, up and down.
> 
> 
> To date, I've assumed old-school thinking-- that I wasn't getting enough signal to the tivo. Maybe a tuner inside that doesn't work as well, or... In recent weeks, I've tried amplifiers, etc- no dice.
> 
> 
> I am about to move my antenna from the garage attic to the rooftop - thinking I need a 'cleaner' signal instead of a stringer one. garage roof is nothing unusual-- no metal. (But... I'm wondering... do I need to? My signals are quite strong..)
> 
> 
> But then... I saw the fmfool report. Um.. my guess now is that I'm being hammered by FM, and that my tivo premiere doesn't necessarily have a worse tuner, just maybe a more sensitive one?
> 
> 
> Should I use an HLSJ or...? Looking for expertise. The channels I want are all in the same direction (NNE)-- Milwaukee is easy that way, ALL the antennas are on the northeast side by lake michigan.
> 
> 
> my tvfool: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a3934477b5cb
> 
> 
> fmfool attached.
> 
> 
> help!



You have two VERY strong FM stations (99.1 & 107.7 MHz) and many close behind.

You also have many VERY strong UHF stations but only one strong Hi-VHF station (Real Ch8).


A Preamp would probably make the intermodulation noise (overload) situation worse.


A HLSJ Splitter will attenuate Ch2-6 and the FM Band if you connect the VHF/UHF

antenna to the Hi-Band port and connect a 75-ohm termination resistor to

the Lo-Band port. However, this will probably ONLY help in receiving Hi-VHF channels,

such as the weaker Ch13 and Ch7, since FM transmitters "shouldn't" affect UHF reception.

[Hmmm.....unless there is a design defect in the TiVo's tuner......]


UHF: It is possible that the TiVo Premier is more susceptible to high signal overload.

Try inserting a small attenuator on the Tivo's input (alternatively: before the splitter).

For every 1 dB of attenuation, the intermodulation noise is reduced by 3 dB, hence

inserting a 3.5 dB loss splitter reduces the noise level by more than 10 dB.


It is also possible that you have a poorly installed connector on one or

more of the cables....so carefully inspect for stray shield wires and clean all

center wire connections....


----------



## caseybea

Wow, great help! Since I had the components already, I finished moving the antenna up and out today. Good news is the signals are definitely stronger! but I can still see (via tivo tuner diagnostics) the signal strength jumping down and up. I haven't seen any signal drops, but it takes time for that to show. I have an HLSJ on the way, I really think it will help stabilize things. Will post back here when it arrives!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> the signal strength jumping down and up. I haven't seen any signal drops,



That may not be all that bad depending on the design of the signal meter, unless its really really low. Ive had some CECBs that did that too, yet the picture remained locked in just fine.


----------



## caseybea




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/19511938
> 
> 
> That may not be all that bad depending on the design of the signal meter, unless its really really low. Ive had some CECBs that did that too, yet the picture remained locked in just fine.



I think I'm OK here-- I haven't seen any pixelation or drops yet... and my RS corrected/uncorrected figures are near zero- woo!!! BUT-- the whole "tivo premiere reception SNR meter jumps up and down wildly" is still something I really want an answer to, mostly due to technical curiosity. It's bugging the heck out of me. (Plus, there's potential I'll still see drops in bad weather with this occurring)...


I want to be able to post my findings to the Tivo forum(s), since MANY people have posted issues with tivo premiere reception.


My current theory, (and I'm sticking to it unless proved otherwise), is that the premiere's tuner is *super* sensitive to FM interference. Only when my HLSJ arrives (c'mon UPS, c'mon...) will I know for sure.


By the way, in my frantic search for solutions, I jumped the gun and purchased a winegard HDP-269, thinking I needed to boost my signal through the house to overcome signal/adapter loss. It's clear based on what I have now (and help from this forum) that this is TOTALLY unnecessary. I'll be packing it up and ebaying-it very soon, I'll pop a note here when I do. If one of you are looking for one of these at a potentially decent price... trust me, I only drove this one on Sunday.


----------



## ChocoLab




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/19485698
> 
> 
> Bandwidth of Wade Single-Channel VHF Yagi antennas can be found here:
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/WadeSCY.html



You are the man as usual, holl_ands... I'd seen that a page years ago when I first started looking at Nist's site, but I'd totally forgotten about it.


Looks like the gain one channel adjacent on those Wades is higher than I would've expected. Maybe I could get the 9 and make the reflector a tiny bit wider to help it even a little more.


BTW, I've been meaning to make one of your VHF-Hi 2 or even 4-bays with reflector, but I guess I'm just not that good a craftsman.







I started to make one, and was doing fine with the elements, but I ran into problems getting good contact with the feed lines. I need to cut a little groove for that like mclapp does on his and try it again.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> By the way, in my frantic search for solutions, I jumped the gun and purchased a winegard HDP-269, thinking I needed to boost my signal through the house to overcome signal/adapter loss. It's clear based on what I have now (and help from this forum) that this is TOTALLY unnecessary. I'll be packing it up and ebaying-it very soon



I dont know where you purchased it from, but most places have decent return policies. Even with a restocking charge, youll net more than putting it up on ebay IMO.


And yes, putting the antenna outside on the roof gives you better and cleaner gain than the HDP-269 in the attic antenna could.


----------



## caseybea




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/19517605
> 
> 
> I dont know where you purchased it from, but most places have decent return policies. Even with a restocking charge, youll net more than putting it up on ebay IMO.
> 
> 
> And yes, putting the antenna outside on the roof gives you better and cleaner gain than the HDP-269 in the attic antenna could.



I know... But I had avoided it initially... it's just that getting way up there to do the install was... a bit scary ..... Big ladder to get to lower roof... then (same ladder), straddle the peak of the garage roof and lay ladder against top of chimney. Climb up the entire ladder, get off ladder on TOP of the chimney, then hop down (3 feet) to the roof on the other side.


Knowing how tricky that was, I got all my stuff and tools up there so I only had to do that once. But in the end... worth it.


I agree about the return for the amp-- I just felt dumb returning it. I'm over that. Amazon. Easy returns.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Knowing how tricky that was, I got all my stuff and tools up there so I only had to do that once.



Very good point not mentioned enough here. When I go up on the roof, I usually strap on a leather carpenters nail bag filled with all the tools I'll possibly need, duct tape, electrical tape, UV resistant wire ties and some spare baling wire too, heh.


----------



## caseybea




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *caseybea* /forum/post/19517025
> 
> 
> I think I'm OK here-- I haven't seen any pixelation or drops yet... and my RS corrected/uncorrected figures are near zero- woo!!! BUT-- the whole "tivo premiere reception SNR meter jumps up and down wildly" is still something I really want an answer to, mostly due to technical curiosity. It's bugging the heck out of me. (Plus, there's potential I'll still see drops in bad weather with this occurring)...
> 
> 
> I want to be able to post my findings to the Tivo forum(s), since MANY people have posted issues with tivo premiere reception.
> 
> 
> My current theory, (and I'm sticking to it unless proved otherwise), is that the premiere's tuner is *super* sensitive to FM interference. Only when my HLSJ arrives (c'mon UPS, c'mon...) will I know for sure.
> 
> 
> By the way, in my frantic search for solutions, I jumped the gun and purchased a winegard HDP-269, thinking I needed to boost my signal through the house to overcome signal/adapter loss. It's clear based on what I have now (and help from this forum) that this is TOTALLY unnecessary. I'll be packing it up and ebaying-it very soon, I'll pop a note here when I do. If one of you are looking for one of these at a potentially decent price... trust me, I only drove this one on Sunday.



Well.... while the HLSJ is an excellent component to add-- it didn't solve my issue. The bouncing up and down of the signal strength is really only edident on one channel, so I'm writing it off to that and some weird issue with the tuner. I've reached my goal (no dropouts!), but it was putting the antenna outdoors that did that.


----------



## DILYSI Dave




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DILYSI Dave* /forum/post/19380426
> 
> 
> Hey guys. New guy here, though I've done a bunch of reading. I'm out in the sticks and trying to ditch pay TV. I'm part of the way there, and looking for some input on what to do next.
> 
> 
> First off, here is my TV Fool - www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dcef3f4b76ab65e (copy and paste - the spam filter won't let me post a link yet.)
> 
> 
> I've got a Winegard HD8200 mounted in my attic and aimed at 235*, towards the Atlanta broadcasts. With that, I'm picking up a decent amount, but would like to do better. As it is, a couple of stations that I would like are marginal (5.1, 17.1, 36.1, 2.1) with signals that take a few seconds to lock on and still go in and out occasionally.
> 
> 
> I think it would be worthwhile to add a preamp, but I'm not positive. I'm looking at the CM7777, as well as the WG8700 and 8275. I don't want to overboost the signal, though I suspect I'm far enough out that this isn't a concern. One thing that could play a role is that I do have a couple of channels that are stronger than the Atlanta ones, about 45* in either direction. I'm concerned with overboosting those. Being 45* off center, perhaps it's not a concern.
> 
> 
> I don't know whether it matters, but just in case, I would like to split this feed 4 ways if I can.
> 
> 
> While outside is a possibility, I'd really rather avoid it. Especially after assembling this monster antenna in my attic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I do have some relatively thick woods probably 75 - 100' away from the antenna, in the direction it is pointing.



Update -


CM7777 installed, and the house wired with RG6. The bedroom TV is working great with one of the cheap digital converter boxes.


Unfortunately, the living room TV has much worse reception. It sees the same channels, but I get a LOT more digital noise / dropouts in the living room through my HTPC. FWIW, I've got a 3-way splitter 1 foot downstream of the CM7777, with only two of the leads hooked up. The one to the bedroom is probably 20' of RG6. The living room is probably 40-50'.


The HTPC is a Dell Insperion 546 with an AverMedia dual channel tuner card ( http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16815100041 ). Using the onboard video to output to the TV via HDMI.


Thoughts? Solutions? I'm sure I could solve all of my problems by going roof mount, but I'm not ready to pull that trigger yet. The fact that I've got acceptable reception in one room is making me hopeful that there is another amp, booster, etc. that will bring the other room up to par.


----------



## A J




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DILYSI Dave* /forum/post/19534557
> 
> 
> I've got a 3-way splitter 1 foot downstream of the CM7777, with only two of the leads hooked up.




I have to ask, why not use a 2-way splitter if you only need two outputs? If you need/want to keep the 3-way, you might try switching the two output coaxes. I've found that the three outputs are not always created equal on a 3-way splitter.


----------



## DILYSI Dave

I'm planning to run a 3rd line down to the basement, but haven't yet.


I would have thought that the division of signal would have been dependent on how many lines were pulling. Maybe not though.


Would something like this - http://www.summitsource.com/4-way-vi...16-p-6825.html - installed downstream of the CM7777 be a better way to split the signal while bumping / not losing as much of it?


----------



## gbynum




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DILYSI Dave* /forum/post/19534557
> 
> 
> FWIW, I've got a 3-way splitter 1 foot downstream of the CM7777, with only two of the leads hooked up.



+1 on the swapping ports; some 3-way are not balanced with perhaps 4.5, 4.5, 8 dB drops.


And ... you do have a terminator on the unused port, right?


----------



## DILYSI Dave




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gbynum* /forum/post/19535479
> 
> 
> +1 on the swapping ports; some 3-way are not balanced with perhaps 4.5, 4.5, 8 dB drops.
> 
> 
> And ... you do have a terminator on the unused port, right?



I do not. What is a terminator?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DILYSI Dave* /forum/post/19535533
> 
> 
> I do not. What is a terminator?



Google "75 ohm terminator"....


----------



## DILYSI Dave

Had no idea such a beast existed. I'll pick one up, do some wire swapping, and see what we see.


Thanks.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DILYSI Dave* /forum/post/19534557
> 
> 
> ...CM7777 installed, and the house wired with RG6. The bedroom TV is working great with one of the cheap digital converter boxes.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, the living room TV has much worse reception.



Take the known working converter box & TV in the living room and try it on that coax. *If* there are still reception problems, you first need to rule out interference from all other devices in the room. Unplug *everything* electrical in the room except the TV and known good converter box/TV combo, particularly wireless/cordless phones, wireless routers and computers. Completely unplug all power cords & AC adapters, don't just turn them off.


Post back with results.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Had no idea such a beast existed. I'll pick one up, do some wire swapping, and see what we see.



Unfortunately, terminators are usually sold in packs of 5 or 10 at Home Depot or Lowes, so in your situation, it probably would be cheaper to get a quality two way splitter for now.


----------



## DILYSI Dave

Found terminators sold in a 2-pack @ Radioshack, but then decided just to eliminate a possibility, I'd also get a 2-way splitter and install it for the time being. Did that and the signal is probably a little better. Still marginally better on the TV with the shorter coax run and converter box.


----------



## arxaw

Did you try the TV & converter box that work well, on the coax in the living room where you're having problems?


----------



## A J




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DILYSI Dave* /forum/post/19535345
> 
> 
> Would something like this - http://www.summitsource.com/4-way-vi...16-p-6825.html - installed downstream of the CM7777 be a better way to split the signal while bumping / not losing as much of it?



Not that one. Check its description/specs, "Amplifier Video Distribution Splitter Amp VHF/CATV". That is for old style analog cable TV and VHF/FM, but not for UHF, where most of the current digital OTA signals are.


There are many VHF/UHF distributions amps on the market if you determine that you need amplification.


----------



## bnieman

What type of roof-mounted antenna would you guys recommend? I am about 30 miles North of Milwaukee.


Here is my tvfool data: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a305f5368f31 


Happy Holidays


----------



## arxaw

Your signals are *very* strong. This small antenna aimed roughly South should work fine for you:
http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out...B5C/ref=sr_1_1 

It comes with a mounting bracket.


If you don't need WMVS-DT 8 / 10-1 (the 2nd PBS shown on your TVFool), this antenna should work:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...ref=sr_1_1_olp


----------



## 300ohm

At 56 NM, he'll most likely get channel 8 / 10.1 with the second choice too.


----------



## bnieman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19599531
> 
> 
> Your signals are *very* strong. This small antenna aimed roughly South should work fine for you:
> http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out...B5C/ref=sr_1_1
> 
> It comes with a mounting bracket.
> 
> 
> If you don't need WMVS-DT 8 / 10-1 (the 2nd PBS shown on your TVFool), this antenna should work:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...ref=sr_1_1_olp



Thanks guys, this is the one I have right now, it's facing South : http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2 


10-1 is unwatchable (continually drops out). And channel 6-1 will drop occasionally during spotty weather. Do you think your option #1 will take care of these problems? My budget is anything under $100.


Thanks again!

Cheers


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bnieman* /forum/post/19600650
> 
> 
> 10-1 is unwatchable (continually drops out).



Not surprising, considering the antenna, which really isn't made for VHF at all.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bnieman* /forum/post/19600650
> 
> 
> Thanks guys, this is the one I have right now, it's facing South : http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2
> 
> 
> 10-1 is unwatchable (continually drops out). And channel 6-1 will drop occasionally during spotty weather. Do you think your option #1 will take care of these problems? My budget is anything under $100.
> 
> 
> Thanks again!
> 
> Cheers



Like Ram said, that antenna is not designed for the channel band you're having dropouts on. And an amplified antenna at your location likely makes matters worse, not better.


A passive non-amplified VHF+UHF antenna is what you need. The RCA ANT751 should work well.


----------



## bnieman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19601531
> 
> 
> Like Ram said, that antenna is not designed for the channel band you're having dropouts on. And an amplified antenna at your location likely makes matters worse, not better.
> 
> 
> A passive non-amplified VHF+UHF antenna is what you need. The RCA ANT751 should work well.



Great! Thanks guys


----------



## mels

Any roof mounted setup recommended for my TV Fool data:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a3d3993af8b5 


I'm hoping to get the basics ABC / NBC / CBS in HD but also the CBC HD ... which appears to be about 55 miles in the other direction.


Is there an omnidirectional that will work? Or am I looking at a rotor?


thanks guys.


----------



## Dave Loudin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mels* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Any roof mounted setup recommended for my TV Fool data:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a3d3993af8b5
> 
> 
> I'm hoping to get the basics ABC / NBC / CBS in HD but also the CBC HD ... which appears to be about 55 miles in the other direction.
> 
> 
> Is there an omnidirectional that will work? Or am I looking at a rotor?
> 
> 
> thanks guys.



You need to consult with the fine folks in the OTA forum at digitalhome.ca. There will be a reception results thread for your area, so you will see what has worked for others. PLUS, they keep the closest eye on Canada's transition to DTV.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mels* /forum/post/19611969
> 
> 
> Is there an omnidirectional that will work? Or am I looking at a rotor?



An OMNI may work for the US stations, but not those from the CN tower or Hamilton. Even then, the adjacent channels 32/33 from different directions pose a problem.


I don't like rotors either, so consider three antennas, one UHF only for Grand Island, a small 7-69 for Colden, and an all channel antenna for Canadian stations. Use an A/B/C switch instead of a rotor.


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mels* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Any roof mounted setup recommended for my TV Fool data:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a3d3993af8b5
> 
> 
> I'm hoping to get the basics ABC / NBC / CBS in HD but also the CBC HD ... which appears to be about 55 miles in the other direction.
> 
> 
> Is there an omnidirectional that will work? Or am I looking at a rotor?
> 
> 
> thanks guys.



A CM4228HD pointed at CBC HD should still get ABC/NBC/CBS HD off the back side because they are so close.


----------



## Velvet Elvis

Hey fellas, I am a cheeshead 42 miles north of Green Bay wisconsin. I am looking to install a ota antenna and so far am looking at clear stream 4 from antennas direct or channelmaster 4228hd.


I am going to check out tvfool right now but is there certain models I should consider more. Budget is around $100.


Thanks


here is link for tv fool, looks like i am 50 m away from tower. I am in red and gray. mainly looking for vhf11 for Packer games. all of them are due south. no need for multidirectional.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...da32d001bbbdf2


----------



## ProjectSHO89

The C4 won't get you the Packers. You'd need the C4 (UHF) plus a C5 (for WLUK only) for full coverage and that would put you WAY over budget. Add a pre-amp.


If you only want the Packers on WLUK and want to stay as inexpensive as possible, AntennaCraft makes a 10-element high-VHF unit that ought to work ( http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Antennas&sku= ). If you also want the rest of the GB stations, an AntennaCraft HBU44 should be suitable instead ( http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Antennas&sku= ).


----------



## arxaw

Velvet Elvis,

Either one of these combo antennas aimed south should get your major networks, including VHF WLUK 11:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HD7696P 
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HBU44 

The first one may hold up better in harsh weather.


Use RG6 coax cable. If a long run or splitting to multiple TVs, add this high gain preamp:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=CM-7777


----------



## hdtvluvr

I either have a Winegard HD7082P or HD7084P. The channels I receive range from 5 to 53. It is mounted in the attic and the towers are all within 20 miles. The antenna works great. However, it is currently only connected to 1 TV. I want to split the signal and run it to a total of 4 TVs. The splitter will be about 50 ft from the antenna and each run from the splitter will be between 50 and 100 feet to the TV.


I have a Wingard HDP-269 amp if needed. Should I use it?


Which 4 way splitter would be the best 1 to use. 1 run currently doesn't have a TV attached. Should I terminate at the splitter or just connect the cable anyway and not terminate the cable at the wall plate?


Thanks!


----------



## arxaw

Choose a splitter with equal loss across the taps. If it's not marked, find another one that is. If you can't find good splitters locally, check solidsignal.com or other online sources.


If possible, only use a splitter with as many taps as you currently need. But if attic access is difficult, go ahead and use a splitter with enough taps for future use, and terminate the cable at the wall plate.


Whether you'll need the 269 preamp or not, depends on how strong your signal is. Without a TVFool report, it's impossible to even make a rough guess as to whether it will be needed. Try first without the preamp. *If* signals are so low that you're getting dropouts on some channels, add the preamp & power supply between the antenna and the splitter. Put the "amp" part of the preamp as close to the antenna as possible.


----------



## hdtvluvr

Thanks, locally all I have is Lowe's and Radio Shack. I figured heir stuff was inferior. I was hoping for "Get this one here: Link"


I'll look around Solid Signal and see what I can find.


----------



## hdtvluvr

Here's what I found at Solid Signal. They range from $1.93 to $50.99

Winegard-SP-2054-4-Way-Splitter-for-VHF-UHF-FM-HD-402050-MHz-(SP2054) $5.99 

Spaun-4Way-Splitter-DC-Passive-From-all-Output-Ports--(VB4P) $50.99 

Skywalker-4way-Splitter-for-Offair-and-Satellite-signals-(SKY23304D) $8.99 

4-Way-Splitter-51000-Mhz $3.99 

Perfect-Vision-PV23224-4Way-Splitter-9002300-Mhz-(PV23224) $5.99 

Channel-Plus-CP2534-Fourway-SplitterCombiner-(CP2534) $5.99 

Eagle-Aspen-P7004AP-All-Frequency-4Way-Splitter-All-Port-Passive-(P7004AP) $1.93 

RCA-VH49-4-way-Splitter-(RCAVH49) $9.95 

Gale-Innovation-Passive-Device-4Way-Angle-Port-Splitter-(AP4) $4.99 

Eagle-Aspen-P10004APGX-4Way-Splitter-(P10004AP) $4.99 

Eagle-Aspen-P7004AP-All-Frequency-4Way-Splitter-All-Port-Passive-(P7004AP) $1.93 



They had some Blonder Tongue units but the smallest was a 10 pack. The above splitters range from 5 - 1000, 10 - 1000 and 5 - 2600 MHZ. The Perfect Vision PV23-224 4-Way Splitter is 900-2300 Mhz. The Skywalker 4-way Splitter for Off-air and Satellite signals (SKY23304D) is 5 - 2300. The Winegard SP 2054 4 Way Splitter for VHF UHF FM HD 40-2050 MHz (SP-2054) is 5 - 2050.


The Channel Plus CP2534 says 9db signal loss. The Spaun 4-Way Splitter DC Passive From all Output Ports (VB4P) says Through Loss: 8dB (@ 47MHz); 9 db (@ 862 MHz); 10.5 dB (@ 950-2400 MHz). It this just as good as the Channel Plus with 9db? Just costs more? The Winegard SP 2054 4 Way Splitter for VHF UHF FM HD 40-2050 MHz (SP-2054) says Splitter Loss: 40-950 MHz 7.5 dB 1000-2050MHz 11.0 dB and

Isolation Loss Between Tap: 40-950 MHz 22dB 1000-2050 MHz 22dB. The others do not list db loss.


With all of the choices I don't know which one to get. I'd rather buy the best for the application and be done with it instead of buying several and "testing".


Here's the TV Fool report. I am only interested in 5, 13, 25, 28, 29, 31, 51.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The Winegard SP 2054 4 Way Splitter for VHF UHF FM HD 40-2050 MHz (SP-2054) says Splitter Loss: 40-950 MHz 7.5 dB 1000-2050MHz 11.0 dB and
> 
> Isolation Loss Between Tap: 40-950 MHz 22dB 1000-2050 MHz 22dB. The others do not list db loss.



I would go for the Winegard, its a brand name and the specs seem accurate for a decent 4 way splitter.

Also get some 75 ohm termination caps if you dont use all 4 ports immediately.

With your strong signals, youll probably be fine splitting without using the preamp, although the attic mount does lose from 6 to 25+ db.


----------



## arxaw

what 300ohm said. The winegard splitter or even one from Lowes or HD should be fine with your strong signals. And you may not need the preamp. Only add it if you have problems with some channels.


Recently, someone on this forum tested RG6 coax from Lowes & HD. Both are good quality.


----------



## hdtvluvr

What MHz range does the channels I listed fall in?


Oh, I just realized the Winegard link didn't work. Should have known something was wrong since it was a different color. I've edited the link so it works now.


And what does "Isolation Loss Between Tap" mean?


----------



## ADTech

I've found the Ideal brand of splitters (found at either Lowes or Home Depot, forget which..) that are labeled for satellite use (generally 5-2300 MHZ) are _*extremely*_ good (low loss). As a bonus, it has one port that passes DC power should your layout require the splitter to be situated between the power inserter and the pre-amplifier.

http://www.idealindustries.com/produ..._splitters.jsp


----------



## arxaw

What ADTech said. You can buy your cable and splitter in one place.


----------



## hdtvluvr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADTech* /forum/post/19658409
> 
> 
> that are labeled for satellite use (generally 5-2300 MHZ) are _*extremely*_ good (low loss)



When you said satellite, I remembered that I had swapped my D* SWiM 4 way splitter out and replaced it with a "green label" one for setting up MRV. It is labeled 2 - 2150 MHz 4 way splitter (SPLIT4-Z) and has a DC power pass. It has " www.zinwellmultiswitch.com ", "DirecTV approved" and barcodes on the label on the back of the splitter.


I thought this was specific to Sat service but it's range is close to what you mentioned. Would this be a good one to use?


----------



## Dave Loudin

Your lowest channel, 5, starts at 76 MHz and your highest channel, 51, ends at 698 MHz.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> And what does "Isolation Loss Between Tap" mean?



Thats the amount of isolation between the output connections, the higher the better.


----------



## gbynum




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/19663071
> 
> 
> That's the amount of isolation between the output connections, the higher the better.



And with standard passive (resistive) splitters, more isolation comes purely via more loss ... up to the extent that capacitive coupling becomes significant.


There are transformer based splitters ... but more money.


Back in my younger days, I had a spreadsheet that calculated resistor values given number of splits and isolation required ... but wouldn't know where to look now. Might have been in my misplaced Reference Data for Radio Engineers ... a great reference.


----------



## DigiSam

Hi, looking for antenna recommendations.


My coordinates are 45.39559,-122.2657. The antenna will be mounted up to 20ft. above ground. My cable run will be 75ft. or less. I have 1 TV(Sony xbr-970), but may add a second in the near future. Some fir trees a block(long block) away in the direction of the broadcast towers. Thanks.


----------



## Digital Rules

A Winegard 7694 aimed at 290° would be a good choice. It may even be enough to power the additional TV without an amplifier. If an amplifier is needed, I suggest the Channel Master 3412 .


----------



## hdtvluvr




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hdtvluvr* /forum/post/19658956
> 
> 
> When you said satellite, I remembered that I had swapped my D* SWiM 4 way splitter out and replaced it with a "green label" one for setting up MRV. It is labeled 2 - 2150 MHz 4 way splitter (SPLIT4-Z) and has a DC power pass. It has " www.zinwellmultiswitch.com ", "DirecTV approved" and barcodes on the label on the back of the splitter.
> 
> 
> I thought this was specific to Sat service but it's range is close to what you mentioned. Would this be a good one to use?




Thanks for the info. Is the unit I mentioned above (quoted here) a good one to use? Or do I need to get another one?


----------



## HD one

Living in halifax mass , south of Boston I have one tv hooked up to ota service. The fcc is a little bit of in terms what can be see with a green zone antenna.


green zone

WLWC CW 28-1 UHF


WWDP IND 46-1 Hi-V


WBZ CBS 4-1 UHF


WCVB ABC 5-1 UHF


WJAR NBC 10-1 UHF


WGBH PBS 2-1 UHF


WGBX PBS 44-1 UHF


WHDH NBC 7-1 UHF


WFXT FOX 25-1 UHF


WMFP IND 62-1 UHF


WNAC FOX 64-1 Hi-V


WLNE ABC 6-1 UHF


WSBK IND 38-1 UHF


WPRI CBS 12-1 Hi-V


WBPX ION 68-1 UHF


WLVI CW 56-1 UHF


With an indoor rca antenna I can get 2.1,4.1,5.1,7.1.2, 44.1,2,3,4 and 68.1.2.3 all the time locked in. I find it kind of funny that 68 works so well, back in the day 68 was never able to be seen in halifax. 25.1, 28.1, 38.1 are the weakest, 25 is unwatchble the signal is so low that the audio skips. 56.1 is mostly ok but I have seen it skip and I have had to re adjust the antenna.

Cant get a good signal out of the providence stations, but with a $30.00 antenna who can complain?

12.1.2 works about 50% of the time.

10.1.2 is about the same.

6.1, have never gotten,

36.1 only works at night in the winter????


----------



## Dave Loudin

To get the best help from us, we will need a bit more information. Please go to TVFool.com, enter your address and how high above ground your antenna will be. The report you get can be shared with us by following the instructions at the top (it gives the URL to share.) Don't worry, we can't see your address.


Besides giving a better prediction of what is available at your location, the report show which direction the signals come from. Just by experimenting with a few locations, I bet part of your problem is the difference in driections between Boston (NW) and Providence (just south of due West). It's hard to point an antenna in just one direction and get both sets of stations.


----------



## HD one

Ok the url for the report is
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...da327428a1ccd1 


Now playing around with with tv setup,vs the cecb the box has less problems with boston stations wfxt is not haveing the audio skip issues. All Boston station read 85 to 95% on the antenna meter. Tv fool has almost all of the major boston station comeing from the same area. I think my tv a 19 inch a polaroid might have co-station issues with wbz on uhf 30 and wfxt on uhf 31. Kind like on an fm radio with a strong signal next to a weaker one.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HD one* /forum/post/19699072
> 
> 
> I think my tv a 19 inch a polaroid might have co-station issues with wbz on uhf 30 and wfxt on uhf 31.



If I lived there I'd get a DB-2 aimed at Needam and a Y5-7-13 aimed at Rehoboth, coupled with a UVSJ.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HD one* /forum/post/19699072
> 
> 
> I think my tv a 19 inch a polaroid might have co-station issues with wbz on uhf 30 and wfxt on uhf 31. Kind like on an fm radio with a strong signal next to a weaker one.



Unlikely since the transmitters are almost next to each other and the power levels are very similar.


More likely is that you have a frequency-specific multi-path problem. Try moving the antenna somewhere else.


----------



## doctorgoo

Hello, I'm hoping to find help with antenna selection. I will try to attach my tv fool results. So far I've tried Phillips Mant 940, Winegard HD 1080, Antennas Direct DB4 & DB8, Antennacraft HBU 22. I've also tried a couple of Winegard pre-amps. I forget the model numbers but one was high gain (maybe like 19dB) and the other was like 12dB. They both caused overload. I'm willing to buy 2 antennas if needed, because I don't want to do a rotor. I just want to plug and play. I've gotten pretty much the same results on all of these antennas:

*Decent most of the time*- WSPA, WRET, WSOC, WAXN
*Get every now and then*- WCCB, WHNS
*Never able to get*- WYCW


I would like to get a good solid signal from all of these stations. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.
Attachment 195519


----------



## doctorgoo

oops forgat a few. I also get WCNC, WBTV, WMYT, and WJZY ALL of the time.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I've also tried a couple of Winegard pre-amps. I forget the model numbers but one was high gain (maybe like 19dB) and the other was like 12dB. They both caused overload. I'm willing to buy 2 antennas if needed, because I don't want to do a rotor.



Yes, 2 antennas with an A-B switch at the TV is what I would try.

One medium gain antenna pointed 77 degrees true with no preamp. (pointed at WCCB, as the other easterly stations should be easier to get off center)

And for the west stations, a very high gain, high F/B ratio uhf antenna with a preamp pointed 280 degrees true. 2 edge stations can be unpredictably hard to get, so you may have to take extraordinary measures.


----------



## tylerSC

Although Gaffney, SC is technically part of the Asheville-Greenville-Spartanburg market, you are actually closer to more of the Charlotte signals rather than SC. And with the right UHF antenna, you will probably get a stronger ABC signal on WSOC-TV 9.1 or 9.5 instead of 13-WLOS which appears to be a further and problematic VHF signal from Asheville. If you don't want a rotor, use 2 antennas and an A/B switch; one for Charlotte, one for GSP. For GSP, try Antennacraft HBU-33 or Winegard HD-7695; for Charlotte Antennacraft MXU-47 or Winegard 9032. The Antennas Direct 91xg could be used for Charlotte signals but may be overkill unless you remove one section. And for both antennas, try a Winegard 269 preamp. The Channel Master 7777 preamp is also good but again may be overkill. From your location, you should get most major stations from both markets, although 13-WLOS will potentially be the most problematic. Be sure and use RG6 cable. Good luck


----------



## doctorgoo

Thanks for the advice. I think I'll start with the Antennacraft stuff since I can pick it up at the local Radio Shack. I'll have to wait until all the snow melts before I get back on the roof, but I'll eventually report back with (hopefully) a success story. The wife and I both work and spend most of our time in Spartanburg. That's why we prefer to get our local news and weather from the GSP staions. Otherwise I could just go with the Charlotte stations. As a last resort I may have to call the cable company


----------



## tylerSC

But if you want to watch ABC programming in Gaffney, your choice is either Charlotte or Asheville, and you may be able to receive WSOC-TV 9.1 or 9.5 more easily than the VHF 13-WLOS. If you upgraded to Antennacraft HBU-55 and a rotor, you should be able to get most everybody from both markets, or perhaps even the HBU-33. Both these antennas are available in store at most RadioShacks. The RadioShack preamp, while not the best, may work for you because it has adjustable power gain which can be turned down as necessary to prevent the strong Gaston signals from overpowering the tuner. I live in Greenville County and enjoy the stations from both areas. While the Charlotte stations do feature Cherokee County news at times, the GSP channels usually do more. Although if you want a cable bill, I think the cable co. there offers channels from both areas; I know they used to.


----------



## doctorgoo

I'm ok with not getting WLOS. I'm mostly concerned with WSPA, WHNS & WYCW


----------



## doctorgoo

I was not happy with the cable company. That's what started this whole antenna thing to begin with. Hopefully I'll find something that works out for me. I'm a fairly patient man. My wife not so much....


----------



## tylerSC

Those 3 stations you should be able to get in Gaffney, as well as WYFF-4. And you might even get favorable results with a good indoor antenna such as Terk HDTVi or HDTVa. They have rabbit ears for VHF which is needed for WSPA-7, as well as a good UHF element. You could also try the basic rabbit ears and loop antenna at RadioShack and see what happens.


----------



## doctorgoo

Yes, I already tried several indoor antennas (amplified and non-amplified) before I started playing with the outdoor stuff. I had pretty much the same results minus a couple of stations (usually WHNS and/or WCCB). I think part of the problem may be that I'm surrounded by trees.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *doctorgoo* /forum/post/19716140
> 
> 
> I'm mostly concerned with WSPA, WHNS & WYCW



WSPA is fairly strong at your location, but you need a VHF antenna for it. An indoor antenna probably won't work, but at least a small high-VHF (ch 7-13) antenna mounted outdoors should do the trick. Don't get a full-range VHF (2-13) antenna because they're much bigger and you don't need ch 2-6 capability.


WHNS and WYCW, on the other hand, are very weak and are on UHF channels. You need a top-notch UHF antenna such as the AntennasDirect 91XG or Channel Master 4228 to have a chance to receive them reliably. Look at the NM(dB) column in your TVFool chart: WHNS is at 4.9 and WyCW is at 2.7.


For comparison, I use a 91XG, and the weakest UHF station I can receive reliably is at NM 4.9 dB. The next lowest one is at 1.9, and I can get it only at night. Local factors that TVFool doesn't take into account, like trees and nearby buildings, have an effect, here, so "your mileage may vary" but I think it's clear that you need a really good UHF antenna for WHNS and WYCW.


Interestingly, WHNS and WYCW come in very strongly for me, even at 60+ miles (NM > 40 dB for both), showing that the intervening terrain makes a big difference.


----------



## al.rob

I posted this in the HTPC hardware forum but received no response, so I thought I'd try here, as this forum is most concerned with OTA reception. I have set up a PC using a Hauppauge Win TV DVR 1800 PCI Express tuner card. It works, but the tuner performance is noticeably worse than my Zenith DTT-900 and DTT-901 CECBs when hooked up to the same rooftop antenna. My signals are strong, but based on the analog days I have lots of multipath in spite of the large directional antenna I am using. With the PC tuner card, there are a few channels I used to get which are no longer as reliable - more droputs, etc. Did I make a poor choice of tuner card? Is there a card that has a tuner as good as the one in the CECBs, or should I plan on an antenna upgrade? I bought the Hauppauge sort of blind, as I haven't found any comaprison of the OTA performance of the various available cards - especially the ability to deal with multipath.


Thanks,


Al


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> using a Hauppauge Win TV DVR 1800 PCI Express tuner card. It works, but the tuner performance is noticeably worse than my Zenith DTT-900 and DTT-901 CECBs when hooked up to the same rooftop antenna.



I believe the DVR 1800 uses an older generation chip and tuner (same as the DVR 850 usb stick) than the newer DVR 950Q usb stick. Ive used the the DVR 950Q and found it to be only a hair less sensitive than the my Zenith DTT-900 and DTT-901 CECBs.


I gave the DVR 950Q away as a present and presently use a AVerMedia AVerTVHD Bravo PCTV Tuner (which was dirt cheap). Its just as sensitive as the DVR 950Q and I believe it also uses a sixth generation chip. I dont have any multipath issues, so I cant evaluate its performance on that. The AverMedia card doesnt seem to be as compatible with 3rd party software. I use the included software, but for some people 3rd party software compatibility is important.



> Quote:
> or should I plan on an antenna upgrade?



What kind of antenna are you using now ? Have you checked and cleaned the connections lately ? Post your TVFool image.


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *al.rob* /forum/post/19719285
> 
> 
> It works, but the tuner performance is noticeably worse than my Zenith DTT-900 and DTT-901 CECBs when hooked up to the same rooftop antenna.



I've noticed the same. We have a couple of Insignia converter boxes (BestBuy private label of the Zenith). Hauppauge HVR1600 performance is substantially worse then the CECBs or our Sony TV.


I use a spare converter box feeding the composite video/audio inputs to pick up weaker stations.


/tom


----------



## al.rob




> Quote:
> I gave the DVR 950Q away as a present and presently use a AVerMedia AVerTVHD Bravo PCTV Tuner (which was dirt cheap). Its just as sensitive as the DVR 950Q and I believe it also uses a sixth generation chip. I dont have any multipath issues, so I cant evaluate its performance on that. The AverMedia card doesnt seem to be as compatible with 3rd party software. I use the included software, but for some people 3rd party software compatibility is important.



Unfortunately, the AverMedia card is a digital ATSC/QAM tuner only, and there is a quirk in Windows MCE 2005 that requires there to be an analog tuner in the system for any tuners to be recognized. The Hauppauge tuner I have also includes an analog tuner that I don't use but is required for MCE 2005. The AverMedia website points this out and states that you also need to have an anaolg tuner and certified MGEG2 decoder in the system to use their card in MCE 2005. Maybe I could use their provided software, but the Media center interface is easy to use once it is set up. So, unless someone knows of a good combo tuner that is better than the one I have, I guess I am stuck.


My current antenna is a large vintage 1997 VHF/UHF Channel Master that I cannot find on their website so I can't give you a model number. The UHF section doesn't have the standard corner reflector but has a series of diamond-shaped elements in front. It's about 12 feet long and is on a 20 ft. mast above the roof. I have a Radio Shack preamp installed at the antenna and the signal is then split 4 ways. All cable is RG6. The radio shack preamp was added a little later and vastly improved things for the analog signals back when I put the antenna up. There is an FM trap on the power supply for this preamp that I do not use as when it is engaged I lose many of the UHF channels for some reason and it doesn't help the VHF reception. The antenna is aimed due north at the DC stations, and there is a rotor that no longer works. For digital, and MCE recordings the rotor would be a PITA anyway, so I'd like a solution that would allow Baltimore and DC to be received without a rotor. Even though it is aimed at DC, I can normally get the DC channels plus 2, 22, 45, and 54 with the Zenith CECBs. Performance with the PC tuner is more spotty on the Baltimore/Annapolis channels.


Is there a good solution to allow me to get DC and Baltimore channels without a rotor and a tuner less robust than the Zenith CECB? I was thinking about a 4 bay bowtie for the UHF, but wasn't sure about the VHF. I'd probably change that radio shack preamp if I was to replace everything, since I've read they aren't so good. TV Fool URL is as follows:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...da32cf032c95de 


I would like to receive 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 20, 22, 26, 32, 45, 50, 54, and 66. I think the green shading on the report that says I can get almost all of that with an indoor antenna is optimistic, since a twin bowtie indoor UHF antenna only gets me 4, 5, 9, 14, and 20. Don't know why 9 comes in with that antenna, but it does. No 7, though. 11 and 13 don't come in with the roof antenna even using the Zenith CECBs. I am on the wrong side of a hill, which is why I put the roof antenna up high. The ridge is heavily wooded, but those trees are a few hundred yards away and I don't notice a reception difference depending on whether the trees have leaves on them. The wind deteriorates the reception, however, even with no leaves on the trees.


Thanks,


Al


----------



## Dark Ages

Our old faithful antenna took a nosedive in Sunday's Blizzard, so we are in the market for a new one. We're hoping that perhaps this might afford us the opportunity to get back some of the many channels we lost in the digital conversion. I have been seeing ads for antennas that can pick up signals 100-150 miles away. Could it be true? I only need 87 or so miles to get back my favorite stations, so I have been feeling hopeful. AntennaHub.com has an antenna pros model AX-909G2 claiming 150 mile reception with high gain booster box. Would we get overloads on the closer channels (20-40 miles away) if we were able to boost the signal enough to get the distant channels?


Current/former antenna was a channelmaster monster that is no longer sold, roof mounted on an approx. 25 ft mast (on 20 ft roof peak), but roof conditions would preclude another antenna in exactly the same spot. We know indoor antenna will be useless, especially for digital. We 're hoping an antenna mounted at the end of the house will work well enough if it is high enough. Hoping for some advice on how tall is tall enough to get the best reception. We still need VHF for 2 channels. My next move is to get a new listing from TVfool as last time I was there was before all the channels had gotten to their final locations. Any help will be appreciated, the sooner the better.


----------



## Digital Rules

Quote:

Originally Posted by *al.rob* 
I'd like a solution that would allow Baltimore and DC to be received without a rotor.
If I were in your shoes, I would first try working with the present antenna, but address signal distribution issues. A preamp will make things worse with such strong signals, but you will need a bit of help distributing the weaker Baltimore signals to the 4 outlets. The Channel Master distribution amp is much more tolerant of strong signals than any preamp. You may end needing a different antenna as well, but I'm thinking your present antenna may be sufficient.


I would purchase an HLSJ & Channel Master 3414 distribution amp. (The HLSJ will address all FM issues which are likely hurting channels 11 & 13) Place the HLSJ right before the input of the distribution amp. Then run the 4 splits out of the amp to the tuners. Point the antenna towards the Baltimore stations. You may need to experiment with slight aim & height adjustments, but the spread looks doable unless multipath is excessive at your location.


----------



## 300ohm

Quote:

Unfortunately, the AverMedia card is a digital ATSC/QAM tuner only, and there is a quirk in Windows MCE 2005 that requires there to be an analog tuner in the system for any tuners to be recognized.
I have the one with ATSC / ClearQAM / NTSC (which is analog) and FM radio.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16815100034 

(it was $35 open box) As you may note, the reviews are split across the board. You just have to look for things that are important or basic to your needs and discount the odd few DOA etc or from people that dont know how to install for OTA. Or third party software except Media Center. MythTV has had mixed reviews, so I dont know the status of it currently.

Quote:

I would like to receive 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 20, 22, 26, 32, 45, 50, 54, and 66.
OK, you have realize the difference between a real channel and a virtual channel. Old channel 2 ABC Baltimore is now on channel 38. Old channel 4 NBC is now on channel 48. Old channel 5 Fox is now on real channel 36. 54 is on 40, 66 is on 34. Channel 50 is still on real channel 50, heh.

From what I see, you can NOW do with a much much smaller antenna than your 12 ft monster. (In 1997, you couldnt) From what I see, you just need a vhf-hi / uhf antenna, since I doubt you want the low power analog stations on real channel 4 and 6.


If I were you, I would build a SBGH with NARODs. I would build the GHn6 model from here: http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/g...6V9_13u75.html 

That would give you enough beamwidth and gain. (you would have enough parts to build 3 from the old antenna, heh)

A commercial choice would be the Winegard HD7694P or Channel Master CM2018. The Radio Shack preamps are noisy and could be doing you more harm than good. You dont want an extremely high gain antenna, as that would narrow the beamwidth.


As per Digital Rules, I would also aim the antenna towards Baltimore, since the DC stations are easy enough to pick up from an offset. And get the Channel Master 3414 distribution amp, or a Channel Master or Winegard preamp.


----------



## 300ohm

Quote:

I have been seeing ads for antennas that can pick up signals 100-150 miles away. Could it be true?
During a tropo event, you can pick up stations 200 miles away with rabbit ears, so does that make a pair of rabbit ears a two hundred mile antenna ? Be very wary of claims of reception past line of sight, which is about 70 miles. They are almost always BS.


Post your TVFool image.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/19724581
> 
> 
> During a tropo event, you can pick up stations 200 miles away with rabbit ears, so does that make a pair of rabbit ears a two hundred mile antenna ? Be very wary of claims of reception past line of sight, which is about 70 miles. They are almost always BS.
> 
> 
> Post your TVFool image.



Ironically, I see those ads all the time on TVFool (served by Google, of course).


----------



## al.rob

Thanks for the replies. I have lived in my neighborhood a long time, and back in the day whenever someone would call in the professional antenna guys to put up an antenna they would get the largest deep fringe model on a 30 foot mast, in the hopes of getting a good enough signal. That's why I put up the Channel Master monster myself. In fact, I called Davis Antenna over before I put up my antenna back in the late 90s and they came over with some sort of field strength meter and said I had a very difficult situation and quoted me over $1000 to install the largest Winegard model on a 30 foot mast, and their quote said there would be no guarantees that they could get rid of the ghosting. I live just a little west of Crystal City and National Airport and if you draw a line between my house and the transmitting towers in NW DC it goes straight through downtown Rosslyn, which is a sea of high rise buildings. I think that may be a source of some of my problems, and I am not sure TV Fool accounts for that and presents a rosy picture of things since I am only about 7 miles from the towers. Before the transition my VHF analog reception from DC was decent, and would actually improve in the summer when the leaves were on the trees. The UHF reception was always terrible, and the best the rotator could do was move the ghosts around on the screen, hoping to find a spot where at least the TV could maintain horizontal sync without bending or breaking up. Baltimore reception was a lot less ghosty, but with lots of snow on VHF and UHF. Channels 11 and 13 were just snowy - there were no funny lines or herringbone patterns that looked like FM interference. The radio shack amplifier I am using has a control on the power supply to adjust the gain (the actual amp is up at the antenna), and I have tried various settings and best results are obtained with it set on max, even after the digital transistion. Overall, my digital reception is way better than it was in the analog days, but I think that the multipath performance of the digital tuner is very important in my case. I may just have to leave well enough alone, since my reception with the Zenith CECBs is decent. Maybe I will try that AverMedia card in the PC, especially if someone can confirm that it has good multipath performance.


Thanks,


Al


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Maybe I will try that AverMedia card in the PC, especially if someone can confirm that it has good multipath performance.



Even though the AVerMedia Bravo Tuner and the DVR 950Q and at least one of the Fusion USB sticks use the 6th gen chips like the Zenith CECBs do, theres no guarantee that they will work well in your situation. All you can do is to try and see, and make sure the store has a good return policy.


> Quote:
> to install the largest Winegard model on a 30 foot mast



Yeah, they were trying to minimize ghosting with a narrow beamwidth. But that required the rotor.


----------



## Dark Ages

Here's what TVfool says if the new antenna is at roof height. I have little trust in what they say since they told me most of the stations I used to get in analog were an impossiblity to view from my location. Before the rotor died on the old antenna we got several NYC stations semi-reliably in digital (WABC, WNYW, WWOR), and they all registered on the converter box - including WCBS, which is a minor miracle as the FCC in its infinite wisdom gave the same frequency to WCBS and WFSB. If the antenna in question can even equal what we got out of the channelmaster I would be happy. We'd at least have an occasional shot at the NYC channels, and I might get some of my sanity back.

http:// http://www.tvfool.com/?optio...da325f2027ee65


----------



## rabbit73

*Dark Ages*:


Your tvfool link doesn't work because you entered the http twice; it should be like this:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...da325f2027ee65 


Don't give up yet. You need to be able to aim your antenna directly at the transmitters and you need to have a good tuner for the weaker signals. The fact that your signals are 1Edge and 2Edge means that your reception will not always be consistent because of the terrain in the signal path.


Some of your signals are fairly strong. With the right antenna and preamp your should be able to get down to WEDN on real channel 9. WEDN and WTNH on real channel 10 require an antenna for VHF-hi. WEDY on real channel 6 requires an antenna for VHF-low; the rest are UHF. The signals further down on your list will be hit-or-miss, depending on the conditions.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/19730677
> 
> 
> With the right antenna and preamp your should be able to get down to WEDN on real channel 9. WEDN and WTNH on real channel 10 require an antenna for VHF-hi. WEDY on real channel 6 requires an antenna for VHF-low; the rest are UHF.



There's no need to pick up WEDY or WEDN. The programming is the same as WEDH.


Therefore a UHF antenna aimed at Hartford and a VHF aimed at New haven would get a full complement of major network stations.


My antenna choices would be a 4 bay UHF aimed at 330° and a Y5-7-13 aimed at 273° added together with a AP2870 or 7777 preamp.


----------



## Dark Ages

That picture is of the antenna that is now flat on the roof, and when it was up and still aimable we were ok, but now it is in pieces having lost VHF completely. I am not interested in getting one antenna for VHF and one for UHF, and since no one in this area seems to install antennas anymore, I kinda need to go with something I can handle, and money is an issue.

Do the more compact style antennas like the antenna pros model I mentioned work?

And as for having HTTP twice so the links don't work, the only thing worse off than my TV is my computer, and this forum takes forever to upload a post, so by the time it was actually up, my server booted me off, and I had no time for corrections.


----------



## Tower Guy

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Dark Ages* 
I am not interested in getting one antenna for VHF and one for UHF, and since no one in this area seems to install antennas anymore, I kinda need to go with something I can handle, and money is an issue.
Please research the size and cost of the suggested antennas. They are smaller and cheaper than most all channel antennas. You would have no problem installing them yourself.


A single antenna cannot be aimed at all stations simultaneously.


----------



## LithOTA




Dark Ages said:


> I am not interested in getting one antenna for VHF and one for UHF, and since no one in this area seems to install antennas anymore, I kinda need to go with something I can handle, and money is an issue.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't discount using two antennas, one for VHF-high and one for UHF. Just using Winegard products for the sake of clarity, you can get a 9032 for UHF and a 1713 for VHF-high and combine them on one mast; you'll get about 10 dB of gain on VHF-high and about 15 dB on UHF, and the two will cost you about $80.
> 
> To match those gain numbers in a combo-style single antenna, you're looking at a 7697 or 7698, both of which cost way more than $100. They will also be harder to install (being almost 14 feet long), and will be more likely to take damage from wind, snow, or ice.
> 
> The combo stlyes tend to be a little better on VHF, but a little worse on UHF, than the separate units. Since most DTV is on UHF, I think it makes more sense to go separate. The only exception would be if your market is VHF-heavy. I see that your TV Fool reports has some VHF-low as well, so if you are interested in those, an all-band Winegard 8200 might be a better option. But that thing is as big as a car.
Click to expand...


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> A single antenna cannot be aimed at all stations simultaneously.





> Quote:
> Don't discount using two antennas, one for VHF-high and one for UHF.



I agree, and separate high gain UHF and VHF antennas is the only way you have any chance of getting some of the NYC stations that you want.


----------



## nukeboy67

I was wondering what kind of antenna I need to pick up long ranges with. I got my 3020 aimed at DFW but I also need Wichita Falls. My TVFool readings are attached. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...da324f8eb92bdf


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Do the more compact style antennas like the antenna pros model I mentioned work?



For local stations, Im sure it does, but so do rabbit ears. I personally wouldnt waste my money or time on it. (unless I saw it at a flea market for say $15) Build and design quality say rip off to me. But if youre sure you can return it for a refund, and dont mind the effort, it may be fun to test out.

I would go with what rabbit73 and the others suggest though. UHF and VHF-Hi antennas are very manageable in size.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I was wondering what kind of antenna I need to pick up long ranges with. I got my 3020 aimed at DFW but I also need Wichita Falls.



Those 3 channels are very weak 2 edge ones. Given all the channels you have for DFW, are you sure you want to go to all the effort and expense for only 3 more channels ? Most of the programming on those channels would be duplicate of what you get already.


Do you almost lock on to them with the CM3020 ?


Do you want to buy a commercial antenna(s), or are you willing to build one ?


(Some DBGHs builds with NAROD and NAROD reflectors have had some amazing successes in the Texas hill country. )


----------



## nukeboy67

Quote:

Originally Posted by *300ohm* 
Those 3 channels are very weak 2 edge ones. Given all the channels you have for DFW, are you sure you want to go to all the effort and expense for only 3 more channels ? Most of the programming on those channels would be duplicate of what you get already.


Do you almost lock on to them with the CM3020 ?


Do you want to buy a commercial antenna(s), or are you willing to build one ?


(Some DBGHs builds with NAROD and NAROD reflectors have had some amazing successes in the Texas hill country. )
When I turn my antenna to the NW, I can lock KFDX, KAUZ and KJTL pinging the meter at 60%. But now, it's impossible to turn it due to having guy wires on the antenna (which we had to put up 3 days before TS Hermine was going to wreak havoc on North Texas.)


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/19733699
> 
> 
> They are smaller and cheaper than most all channel antennas. You would have no problem installing them yourself.



Another vote for using separate VHF and UHF antennas. Our VHF antenna is aimed at NH stations and UHF to Boston, combined with the CM7777 preamp.


If you can install one antenna you can install two. Separate antennas are shorter an less unwieldy then a combo antenna. Mount them on the same mast three feet or more apart to minimize mutual interference.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nukeboy67* /forum/post/19736211
> 
> 
> I also need Wichita Falls.



HD7698P with AP8700 preamp.


Leave your 3020 aimed at Dallas. Use an A/B switch.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> When I turn my antenna to the NW, I can lock KFDX, KAUZ and KJTL pinging the meter at 60%.



No sniff of a signal on KSWO-DT channel 11 ? The CM3020 has 8.1 dBd (10.25 dBi) on Vhf-hi, which is pretty darn good. Tower Guy's suggestion is a good one if theres a chance of getting channel 11. But if the signal isnt there, it just aint there, and you could go with a much cheaper UHF only antenna, like the old CM4228 or PR8800. Or even building a simple SBGH, which has more UHF gain than CM3020s average of 9.5 dBd (11.65 dBi).



> Quote:
> But now, it's impossible to turn it due to having guy wires on the antenna (which we had to put up 3 days before TS Hermine was going to wreak havoc on North Texas.)



I take it you didnt use a ring collar for the guy wires. If you did, you could have still rotated it and locked down the base when needed.


----------



## doctorgoo

Based on several review I read online, I gave one more try at a 1 antenna solution. I purchased a CM 4228 HD and aimed it at the GSP stations. It picks up all but WYCW and also is pulling in all of the Charlotte stations that I want (as well as a couple of extra stations) off the back of the antenna. The signal strengths range from about 40% on WSPA to about 70% on most of the UHF stations. I can live with not getting WYCW. However, when I split the signal to 2 televisions, WSPA and WRET start to pixelate and WSPA drops out. My question is should I try a pre-amp or should I get a distribution amp?


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *doctorgoo* /forum/post/19741239
> 
> 
> Based on several review I read online, I gave one more try at a 1 antenna solution. I purchased a CM 4228 HD and aimed it at the GSP stations. It picks up all but WYCW and also is pulling in all of the Charlotte stations that I want (as well as a couple of extra stations) off the back of the antenna. The signal strengths range from about 40% on WSPA to about 70% on most of the UHF stations. I can live with not getting WYCW. However, when I split the signal to 2 televisions, WSPA and WRET start to pixelate and WSPA drops out. My question is should I try a pre-amp or should I get a distribution amp?



Hi,


Distribution amp, as soon as you use a pre-amp followed by by splitter you do not gain as much.


My CM4228HD has a pre-amp followed by a two way splitter. One leg is not used (Yes terminated) and the other has a eight (8) way distribution amp which was necessary as a eight (8) way splitter just did not work. No signs of the distribution amp being overloaded by the pre-amp.


Now that the rains have returned and the leaves are off the trees my poorest tuner has lost many stations and CBS (KPIX) dropped out. Luckily I have a bootshelf mounted Terk HDTVa that a little moving around got KPIX back. (I live in the soupbowl of the S.F. Bay area with tons of Multipath coming in from all directions.)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post18961433 


SHF


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *doctorgoo* /forum/post/19741239
> 
> 
> Based on several review I read online, I gave one more try at a 1 antenna solution. I purchased a CM 4228 HD and aimed it at the GSP stations. It picks up all but WYCW and also is pulling in all of the Charlotte stations that I want (as well as a couple of extra stations) off the back of the antenna. The signal strengths range from about 40% on WSPA to about 70% on most of the UHF stations. I can live with not getting WYCW. However, when I split the signal to 2 televisions, WSPA and WRET start to pixelate and WSPA drops out. My question is should I try a pre-amp or should I get a distribution amp?



Replacing your splitter with a CM3412 or CM3414 should be all you need.


----------



## nukeboy67




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/19740058
> 
> 
> No sniff of a signal on KSWO-DT channel 11 ? The CM3020 has 8.1 dBd (10.25 dBi) on Vhf-hi, which is pretty darn good. Tower Guy's suggestion is a good one if theres a chance of getting channel 11. But if the signal isnt there, it just aint there, and you could go with a much cheaper UHF only antenna, like the old CM4228 or PR8800. Or even building a simple SBGH, which has more UHF gain than CM3020s average of 9.5 dBd (11.65 dBi).
> 
> 
> 
> I take it you didnt use a ring collar for the guy wires. If you did, you could have still rotated it and locked down the base when needed.



We were planning on getting the collars but forgot to put them on like dummies.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *doctorgoo* /forum/post/19741239
> 
> 
> My question is should I try a pre-amp or should I get a distribution amp?



I vote for a pre-amp because a decent pre-amp introduces less noise than a typical distribution amp.


My impression is that distribution amps are usually designed for cable or satellite signals, which are already strong to begin with. But borderline OTA signals are much weaker, so you want to introduce as little noise as possible. A good pre-amp has a "noise figure" in the range of 2-3 dB, so shoot for that. You don't need a whole lot of gain if all you want to do is compensate for splitting, so you don't need to go all the way to a Channel Master 7777 which a lot of people (including me) use for deep-fringe reception.


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1* /forum/post/19741681
> 
> 
> I live in the soupbowl of the S.F. Bay area with tons of Multipath coming in from all directions.



The soupbowl? Where is that? LOL. I grew up in Cupertino and we had multipath from the P-3s on approach to Moffet field. Of course that was back in the 60s when we only got 6-8 channels.


Ahhh, the good old days: A TV antenna on every roof, no restrictive covenants, no cable, tube TV construction, B&W TV, programs that were at least 50 minutes long (only 10 min of commercial break), Walter Cronkite, no Sutro Tower, Herb Caen, etc. ...


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Satcom15* /forum/post/19744357
> 
> 
> The soupbowl? Where is that? LOL. I grew up in Cupertino and we had multipath from the P-3s on approach to Moffet field. Of course that was back in the 60s when we only got 6-8 channels.
> 
> 
> Ahhh, the good old days: A TV antenna on every roof, no restrictive covenants, no cable, tube TV construction, B&W TV, programs that were at least 50 minutes long (only 10 min of commercial break), Walter Cronkite, no Sutro Tower, Herb Caen, etc. ...



Hi,


Actually any place in the greater Bay area.


If you think of the bay as the bottom of the soup bowl and the rim as the mountains (hills) surrounding it you have the picture that I have in my head.


We have one primary source of DTV, a monstrosity in San Francisco and 2-4 minor sites.

http://www.larrykenney.com/sutrotwr.html 


Multipath can occur by a bounce off any mountain in any direction.


Reports of OTA problems with reception come from all areas and is a driving force making Cable / Satellite responsible for 80+% households getting their TV that way. That is a pre DTV report and I suspect that the percentage is now much higher!


Almost all TV stations had DTV signals on the air quite early, some I still wonder where they got their money. I was all DTV ~ 2 years before analog was turned off. I now have 78 streams available but a few are duplicates. KQED has taken over KTEH and now has three transmitters fed from SF with 12 streams with some duplicates.


I am / was directly under the P-3s on approach to Moffet field.


The Internet is having problems today and the best picture of how Sutro dominates over SF is the KGO South Beach HDTV weather cam that is not on the web.


If you are interested more, send me a PM.


SHF


----------



## LithOTA

Here's my current setup, with a Winegard 9022 on top and a Winegard 1713 below. Compared with a Winegard 7697 or 7698, my setup is not as strong on VHF-high, but is several dB better on UHF. Since most DTV is on UHF, I think two antennas make more sense.

When you compare weights, they are about the same; after all, most of the parts are the same, Winegard just arranges them differently to make different antennas. But it is certainly easier to handle the two antennas (one at a time) than one huge combo.

And, as a bonus, the separate units are almost half the cost.

With this arrangement, I'm getting UHFs daytime-reliable down to a noise margin of -5, and nighttime down to -10. VHFs are daytime-reliable down to a noise margin of +5, and nighttime down to 0. I could improve these results with more elevation, but for that I would need to find EMT mast material in 15-foot lengths (to avoid joints that move under wind load).


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I think two antennas make more sense.
> 
> When you compare weights, they are about the same; after all, most of the parts are the same, Winegard just arranges them differently to make different antennas. But it is certainly easier to handle the two antennas (one at a time) than one huge combo.
> 
> And, as a bonus, the separate units are almost half the cost.



Agree somewhat, but sometimes wind resistant factors may come into play. A DBGH with NARODs and NAROD reflectors may give what is needed with minimal profile.







Although, you have a good setup..

If you choose to roll your own for even less money, a DBGH with NARODs and NAROD reflectors is a good way to go.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/19774058
> 
> 
> Agree somewhat, but sometimes wind resistant factors may come into play.



They did; right after I installed the 1713, we had a lot of wind, and there was a lot more sway in the mast. This is why I want to eliminate any joints in my "lower" mast (below the rotor and bearing), as the joint I have now gives more than I'd prefer.

But it seems very difficult to find EMT in sizes longer than 10 feet. *Does anyone have any info on where I could find a 15 to 20-foot-long chunk of 1.25 or 1.5 inch EMT?*


----------



## gbynum




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/19777499
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any info on where I could find a 15 to 20-foot-long chunk of 1.25 or 1.5 inch EMT?



I've never seen EMT in lengths other than 10 ft. I believe that IMC (Intermediate metallic conduit) is available in 20 ft lengths. I deal in hydraulics, and the standard length for hydraulic tubing is (depending on the manufacturer) either 20-22 ft random or 20 ft. This is available in various wall thicknesses and in low carbon steel, alloy steel (4130, I believe), and stainless steel (304 and 316 are common). Metric sizes tend to be plated; SAE tend to not be.


Check with a local electric supply house for IMC ... it is your best choice, and normally is galvanized.


----------



## n8wci

I went with 1" ID (1 1/4"OD) Schedule 40 stainless steel pipe(304). It is on a chimney mount for the base, and also guyed below the rotor, with a support bearing above. S.S. pipe has a nominal length of 20', carbon and galvanized, 21'.


----------



## nukeboy67

Where would I find a ring collar for my antenna? If it's a certain type of antenna that it needs, it is a CM-3020.


----------



## doctorgoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/19742842
> 
> 
> I vote for a pre-amp because a decent pre-amp introduces less noise than a typical distribution amp.



Can any of you guys suggest a good pre-amp for me to try? When I had the DB8 with the Winegard amps ( I think one was 269 and the other may have been 87something) the tech from solid signal said that I was overloading my tuners due to "multi path". I'm sure you guys know a lot more about what that means than I do. Will this be an issue with the CM 4228hd? I'll attach my tvfool again. Thanks in advance. Attachment 197197


----------



## Dark Ages




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/19732419
> 
> 
> Therefore a UHF antenna aimed at Hartford and a VHF aimed at New haven would get a full complement of major network stations.



With the most recent antenna, after the rotor died, I was able to limp the antenna into a roughly Hartford direction, and in that position it picked up channels 3, 18, 24, 30, 61 out of Hartford, but also 8, 59 from New Haven, 26 from New London, 20 from Waterbury, and 22 out of Springfield, MA (sporadically). If Digital is so directional, why was I able to pick up completely different directions with one antenna pointed in one direction? And even now with it down on the roof, pointed mainly up and East, all but 18 and 22 have made appearances. Nothing holds all the time right now, but I have been lucky in terms of what it has been allowing me to see.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/19734705
> 
> 
> The only exception would be if your market is VHF-heavy.



While my "In-market" stations only include 1 VHF, 3-4 VHF are still used in NYC, and I have not given up hope of having them back.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/19736107
> 
> 
> I agree, and separate high gain UHF and VHF antennas is the only way you have any chance of getting some of the NYC stations that you seem to feel you need.



If you had spent the last year+ getting "news" from the grammatically challenged people I have after 25 years of news worth watching out of NYC, you would feel the need of other channels too. My brain cells are being killed just listening to them butcher the English language.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/19737503
> 
> 
> For local stations, Im sure it does, but so do rabbit ears.



We have never gotten anything with rabbit ears from this location, so constantly throwing those in my face will not get you very far, no matter how fond you are of the "ears".


Unfortunately I am at a disadvantage here - we have always had our antennas installed, and it had always been very easy reception in analog, so excuse me if I feel totally put off by the government telling me this is better with the "better picture, better sound, more channels" crap they blew up my tailpipe. Why shouldn't I want the same channels I always had in analog? Proximity and relevance are not the same thing - the local channels just don't cut it on the news front.


I came here again to ask about a specific antenna I was looking at, and what I got was nit-picky, snarky comments that were not helpful, someone dredging up a 2-3 year old antenna picture telling me to keep working on finding the right direction with it when my first returning post said in the opening line that that antenna was now flat on the roof, and I was looking for a new one. Maybe in 2-3 more years, someone will try to answer what I was asking this time.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *doctorgoo* /forum/post/19792583
> 
> 
> Can any of you guys suggest a good pre-amp for me to try? When I had the DB8 with the Winegard amps ( I think one was 269 and the other may have been 87something) the tech from solid signal said that I was overloading my tuners due to "multi path". I'm sure you guys know a lot more about what that means than I do. Will this be an issue with the CM 4228hd? I'll attach my tvfool again. Thanks in advance. Attachment 197197



Your TVFool report shows only ONE strong UHF station (it takes more than one to generate intermod products)

and hence does NOT predict any overload problems.

CM7777 is good choice, with a lot more Gain than W-G HDP-269. The CM7777 also has an FM Trap, that

MIGHT be useful against nearby powerful FM transmitters to improve your Hi-VHF (Ch7-13 only) reception.

You can enter your location into www.fmfool.com to see what you are up against.....


PS: Multipath and Overload are entirely different....and separate problems....


----------



## doctorgoo

Ok thank you. What happened before was that I was geeting a decent signal from the DB8 with no pre-amp, but when I added the different pre-amps I lost all signal. That was what I understood to be an overload. (not sure) When I contacted solid signal, the representative I spoke with said that the problem was multipath and that I wouldn't be able to get a signal at at all with the DB8. Well since I was watching tv using the DB8 while I was speaking to him I didn't even bother to debate with him. BTW, he tried to get me to upgrade to either a very expensive (for my budget) directional antenna and a rotor (about $260) OR two of the antennas and some type of joiner (about $400). He claimed that based on my location these were my only options. Well, i may not know much about OTA reception, but I do know a thing or two about salesmen. Needless to say I won't be asking their techs for antenna advice anymore. Ok rant over.


----------



## holl_ands

*Dark Ages:*

Here's list of *BIG* VHF/UHF Combo Antennas that include coverage in Lo-VHF region for your Ch5:

*ANTENNACRAFT*(in order of increasing gain, size and hence higher cost):

CCS1843

HD1800

HD1850
http://www.antennacraft.net/Antennas...llChannel.html 

*CHANNEL MASTER*(in order of increasing gain, size and hence higher cost):

CM3020, see http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg4.htm 

CM3671, see http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg2.htm 

*WINEGARD*(in order of increasing gain, size and hence higher cost):

HD7082P

HD7084P

HD8200U
http://winegard.com/offair/index.php 

Although not easily found on W-G's website, PR7052 is also a candidate:
http://winegard.com/kbase/upload/Pr-7052.pdf 


Now you can decide how much you want to spend, and how big a monster you want

to wrestle....bearing in mind bigger antennas are more susceptible to the NEXT blizzard....


If you can't locate your choice locally, carefully check...and double check...shipping costs.

And be sure to use a hi-gain Preamp, such as CM7777 and a HEAVY-DUTY Rotator.


As has been mentioned before, separate VHF and UHF antennas have the

advantage of more gain in the UHF band. You might also want to compare the

cost of the Antennas Direct 91XG UHF antenna plus a VHF-only antenna, such

as the Antennacraft CS-1100: http://www.antennacraft.net/pdfs/CS1100.pdf 

CM7777 can be configured for separate VHF and UHF antenna inputs.


----------



## tbird2340

So I'm a having an issue and it's driving me nuts.. I got a 91XG and very often it will be fine then go to "No Signal" for a few seconds and then go back.. It happens with all channels. Here is a video of what I mean:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSMgUGbEXAk&hd=1 


I have replaced one of the coax lines that runs from the antenna into the house but I still have it connecting to a coupler and then another 25' that goes to the TV that I didn't replace (thought 50' would be long enough)..


I didn't have any of these issues with my old antenna using the same cables (before replacing the 50' coax).


Any ideas?


Thanks


----------



## Digital Rules

Does this only happen when it is windy?


----------



## tbird2340




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/19798138
> 
> 
> Does this only happen when it is windy?



No, and I meant to put that but forgot.. It happens even when it's beautiful out with no wind at all..


----------



## Digital Rules

Looks like you are experiencing a lot of reflected signals.(mutipath). Strange that it is occurring on all channels. Have you tried tweaking the aim or height of the antenna? If you have trees right in front of the antenna, you may need a rotator if the multipath is severe enough or your desired stations are more than 20° apart.


----------



## tbird2340




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/19798221
> 
> 
> Looks like you are experiencing a lot of reflected signals.(mutipath). Strange that it is occurring on all channels. Have you tried tweaking the aim or height of the antenna? If you have trees right in front of the antenna, you may need a rotator if the multipath is severe enough or your desired stations are more than 20° apart.



No, I haven't tried tweaking the aim of it.. I have it aimed directly at KDKA as that is the channel I specifically bought it for (which it does pick it up great whereas my old one didn't at all)...


Bunch of snow on the roof so can't do it anytime soon. Strange how I can be watching a game and it barely do it at all and then later it will break out a ton..


----------



## Digital Rules

Same problem here, but an additional center section helped quite a bit with multipath. Only a problem now when windy, which the rotor takes care of. All desired stations are within a few degrees but the trees really bounce the signals around.


----------



## 300ohm

Look for anything that may be going on between you and the transmitter. In my case, I get interruptions very likely caused by ships crossing in the bay.


Any airports directly between you and the transmitter ?


----------



## The Hound

Semi's going by out front of the house will make RF7 drop sometimes.


----------



## LithOTA

Quote:

Originally Posted by *tbird2340*
No, I haven't tried tweaking the aim of it.. I have it aimed directly at KDKA as that is the channel I specifically bought it for (which it does pick it up great whereas my old one didn't at all)...


Bunch of snow on the roof so can't do it anytime soon. Strange how I can be watching a game and it barely do it at all and then later it will break out a ton..
Two things that I've noticed about those kinds of dropouts:

Planes. Small, single-engine prop planes flying low through the signal path will do this to me quite often. I have a general aviation airport in town, and the pilots love going around in circles for joy rides.

Tuners. Some are just better than others, and are able to hold on to the data stream without dropping out. How old is the tuner you're using? The ones from the last 2 years are much better (so-called "6th generation").


----------



## 300ohm

Quote:

Planes. Small, single-engine prop planes flying low through the signal path will do this to me quite often.
Heh, I have low flying C5's go by occasionally. In analog, the effect on the screen was like multiple tsunamis hitting.







But at least they go by quick. Ships in the bay travel very slowly.


----------



## tbird2340

Quote:

Originally Posted by *LithOTA* 
Two things that I've noticed about those kinds of dropouts:

Planes. Small, single-engine prop planes flying low through the signal path will do this to me quite often. I have a general aviation airport in town, and the pilots love going around in circles for joy rides.

Tuners. Some are just better than others, and are able to hold on to the data stream without dropping out. How old is the tuner you're using? The ones from the last 2 years are much better (so-called "6th generation").
I have a Sony 42A10. I think I got it about 4-5 years ago.. It has a built in tuner. So you think if I got a better tuner it could fix this issue?


----------



## arxaw

tbird2340, it's quite possible. Many (but not all) tuners from the last couple of years have made great improvements.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/19811998
> 
> 
> Heh, I have low flying C5's go by occasionally. In analog, the effect on the screen was like multiple tsunamis hitting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But at least they go by quick. Ships in the bay travel very slowly.



These "hobby pilots" in my area take thier planes up at all hours, and they just loiter around. One Sunday when I was trying to watch a Packer game on WITI-6 in Milwaukee, this one guy kept going around, and around, and around. Every few minutes, I'd hear his engine as it came around the north side of my house, and then, just like clockwork, he would pass through the signal path and trigger the dreaded DishNetwork "yellow screen of death". I was going to check out some Army Surplus Anti-Aircraft Artillery, but the wife thought that might not be a good idea.


----------



## JimboG

Oh goodness, they built a new airport nearby after you bought you house? Or perhaps the fact that you are near an existing airport already was compounded into the price of your residence at purchase.










I doubt many pilots near you "loving going around in circles for joyrides". More likely, you are near the rectangular traffic pattern for a local general aviation field. You know: upwind, crosswind, downwind, base leg, final, that sort of thing?


Perhaps you are a bit further from the airfield and you have folks doing turns around a fix or circling as part of practice instrument approaches. These are just the sort of key skills that you want a pilot to be proficient in before he flies a commercial or passenger aircraft. Heck, these are the sort of skills that he or she will need to know before flying over your head without an instructor pilot in the aircraft.


If a new airport truly did open near your house, you have my sympathies for your newly inconvenient TV reception problems. If the airfield predates your ownership of the home, I would suggest you bother to do some research and exercise due diligence next time.


----------



## tbird2340




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19814732
> 
> 
> tbird2340, it's quite possible. Many (but not all) tuners from the last couple of years have made great improvements.



How much is a tuner? Any recommendations?


Thanks!


----------



## The Hound

The Zenith dtt901 are 6th gen.

Many people use them for DXing.

It is an SD only box though.

I got mine with the government coupon for $20.

For HDTV I'm using the Samsung DTB-H260F.

The signal is much stronger on the Zenith.

Were the Sammy will drop, the Zenith will still be fine.

The Samsung boxs went for $190 new now they are $200 used.


----------



## arxaw

tbird2340,

See the STB synopsis thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=179095 


One standalone tuner that is popular on this forum is the Centronics or a clone of it.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1136626 


If you want an OTA HD DVR with no subscription fees, the DTVPal or ChannelMaster (clone of the DTVPal) would be something to consider.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1099071


----------



## bdbrown

Hi all. Just starting out here trying to get off the cable box. OTA analysis for my location:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...3cf4c7afc4efdb 


Both UHF and VHF from two main but opposing directions. Only looking to grab the "green" stations. Antenna height is 7ft since I thought I'd try an indoor antenna sitting on top of the TV cabinet for starters:

http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT111-Bas.../dp/B000HKGK8Y 


Wondering if a single antenna will do it; if so, is the above a good choice?

Or do I need to combine two antennas into a single feed?


Any thoughts and/or recommendations are greatly appreciated!


----------



## ProjectSHO89

bdbrown,


Try a simple *NON-AMPLIFIED* loop and rabbit ears from Radio Shack.


----------



## arxaw

bdbrown, try this specific budget antenna (*not* the one you linked to on amazon): http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077 

Although very similar looking to the one you posted, it is a better design and often performs much better than a lot of other indoor antennas. It should work well with your TVFool results.


If you have any problems, get the antenna away from other electronics, which can interfere with indoor reception. Even the TV can sometimes interfere. Use a barrel splice to add an additional length of coax to the antenna's existing coax.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Both UHF and VHF from two main but opposing directions. Only looking to grab the "green" stations.



Theres a very good chance you could do just great with just a simple uhf loop. Vhf-hi channel 9 is so strong, you should be able to get it with a paper clip, so the simple uhf loop would have no problem with it. About the same thing goes for vhf-hi channel 7 PBS, which may be a basic repeat of PBS channel 29 anyway.

The uhf loop has enough beamwidth to cover both main transmitter directions.

Your biggest problem is going to be finding a spot in your house where you have the least multipath problems.

And avoid any amplified indoor antenna like the plague.


----------



## brandtlj

Per arxaw's suggestion I bought a Radio Shack basic UHF loop & di-pole antenna and hung it in the attic ( http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077 ).


This was working very well unless there were thunderstorms or generally windy conditions which played havoc with our reception.


After deciding that we needed a more robust antenna and doing some research, I came across a lot of good anecdotal posts about the AntennaCraft G1483 sold exclusively from Summitsource.com. I have just received it and my first test of just laying the antenna on the floor next to the T.V. yielded better performance than the Radio Shack in the attic. Hopefully when I have it in the attic, I won't have to worry about bad reception as much during poor weather.


Anyways, my question is this...being that the G-1483 is a UHF antenna, I wanted to fabricate and attach a simple di-pole to the lead-ins, so I could pick up my single VHF-Hi channel #12.


I found this link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Televis...el_frequencies which showed VHF-12 is between 204-210 Mhz.


Using the calculations from this link - http://www.ehow.com/how_6146150_calc...na-length.html (using the average of 207 Mhz for #12), I discovered that I need to attached di-poles of lengths roughly 14.25 inches to the leads.


I just wanted to make sure my assumptions were correct before cutting and attaching some rods to the G1483.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Your math is very correct as far as you went.


The final consideration is whether you'll need to compromise by using a 300-75 ohm balun or if you'll be able to acquire or make a 75-75 ohm balun.


If using a 75-75 ohm balun, you're fine. You should be able to make one using readily available plans on the 'net.


If you need to use a 300-75 balun, increase the length of each element by about 2" to minimize the effects of impedance mismatch.


Keep in mind that the basic dipole is purely bi-directional. You can add directionality by adding a reflector and one or more directors. A simple rule-of thumb is to make the reflector 5% longer than the dipole and the director(s) 5% shorter. Use a 0.2 wavelength boom spacing and you'll be close enough. This will be good enough for most applications although it can be optimized. Google "K7MEM Yagi Calculator" for an excellent example.


Use a UVSJ or a pre-amp with separate U/V inputs to properly combine the signals into a single downlead.


----------



## ajg0711

I have a few questions I'd like to ask. I was talking to a bestbuy sales person and he said the only true HD is threw cable or sat, because they amp the signal threw their box and feed it thru the hdmi cable to the tv. He said you can't get true HD from the antenna becuase it doesn't use the HDMI cable. I always thought that the true HD was threw the antenna. I have had cable and dish network and the best picture I get is with my antenna on the roof for the local channels. So if what he's saying is true why don't the antennas come with some form of hdmi set up. If what he's saying is not true than why do you need the hdmi cable for your cable or sat box, why not just hook it up with regular cable.


----------



## arxaw

The bestbuy droid you talked to is a complete idiot.


----------



## jsb_hburg




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ajg0711* /forum/post/19841877
> 
> 
> I have a few questions I'd like to ask. I was talking to a bestbuy sales person and he said the only true HD is threw cable or sat, because they amp the signal threw their box and feed it thru the hdmi cable to the tv. He said you can't get true HD from the antenna becuase it doesn't use the HDMI cable. I always thought that the true HD was threw the antenna. I have had cable and dish network and the best picture I get is with my antenna on the roof for the local channels. So if what he's saying is true why don't the antennas come with some form of hdmi set up. If what he's saying is not true than why do you need the hdmi cable for your cable or sat box, why not just hook it up with regular cable.




Does your HDTV have a built-in H/DTV tuner? If so, then the HDTV processes the OTA signal internally and displays it on your HDTV - no HDMI cable required. To the extent your local stations broadcast in HD, the quality of the local stations should be better via OTA than cable because most cable systems compress the local station feed resulting in some perceptible quality loss.


----------



## Buckeye911




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ajg0711* /forum/post/19841877
> 
> 
> I have a few questions I'd like to ask. I was talking to a bestbuy sales person and he said the only true HD is threw cable or sat, because they amp the signal threw their box and feed it thru the hdmi cable to the tv. He said you can't get true HD from the antenna becuase it doesn't use the HDMI cable. I always thought that the true HD was threw the antenna. I have had cable and dish network and the best picture I get is with my antenna on the roof for the local channels. So if what he's saying is true why don't the antennas come with some form of hdmi set up. If what he's saying is not true than why do you need the hdmi cable for your cable or sat box, why not just hook it up with regular cable.



Like arxaw said, the BB salesman is an idiot and 100% wrong. jsb_hburg is also correct, you will get an uncompressed picture via antenna that is usually better than the picture coming through your cable or satellite box.


Concerning your last question, you CAN just connect the cable directly into your TV without going through a box if your TV has a QAM tuner, almost all modern TVs do. This will only work with cable, not satellite. Your TV's QAM tuner will pick up all unencrypted (clear QAM) digital and/or HD programming. The FCC requires cable companies to keep local channels in the clear and many cable companies limit it to just that however some do have a few other channels in the clear as well.


----------



## brandtlj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/19838853
> 
> 
> Your math is very correct as far as you went.
> 
> 
> The final consideration is whether you'll need to compromise by using a 300-75 ohm balun or if you'll be able to acquire or make a 75-75 ohm balun.
> 
> 
> If using a 75-75 ohm balun, you're fine. You should be able to make one using readily available plans on the 'net.
> 
> 
> If you need to use a 300-75 balun, increase the length of each element by about 2" to minimize the effects of impedance mismatch.
> 
> 
> Keep in mind that the basic dipole is purely bi-directional. You can add directionality by adding a reflector and one or more directors. A simple rule-of thumb is to make the reflector 5% longer than the dipole and the director(s) 5% shorter. Use a 0.2 wavelength boom spacing and you'll be close enough. This will be good enough for most applications although it can be optimized. Google "K7MEM Yagi Calculator" for an excellent example.
> 
> 
> Use a UVSJ or a pre-amp with separate U/V inputs to properly combine the signals into a single downlead.



Well, after a couple hours of finding a sweet spot, I finally mounted my G1483 in the attic today and guess what...the UHF reception was only MARGINALLY better than the radio shack antenna (less the VHF channel!).


Anyway, I think I'm going back to the radio shack antenna, but I want to optimize it for reception.


Since the di-poles on this antenna do not swivel down completely flat, do you have any suggestions on how to optimize it for VHF - channel 12?


I tried this website, http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/R...s.html#Getting 

but I'm having trouble interpreting 45 degrees from horizontal in his description.


Also, would it do any good to put a sheet of tinfoil over cardboard directly behind the uhf loop?


Thanks in advance!


----------



## Harley_Dude

I am looking to put up an outside antenna on my home in NW San Antonio. It looks like I'm about 32 miles from where the majority of the transmitters in the area are located (see attached).


Considering going with the Channel Master 4228 mounted on the ridge of my roof, replacing the spot where a DirecTV dish is mounted today so that it can use the coax that is running into my living room. I would also like to get the signal to my garage...but there isn't a cable drop out there and I was wondering if there is any kind of "VHF/UHF" over power line" adapter like there is for Internet where wireless is not practical? Running a drop to the garage would be cost prohibitive if not impossible where the TV needs to be placed.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Anyways, my question is this...being that the G-1483 is a UHF antenna, I wanted to fabricate and attach a simple di-pole to the lead-ins, so I could pick up my single VHF-Hi channel #12.



The G-1483 is a Hoverman antenna. Doing what you propose will totally mess it up.


For getting vhf-hi and uhf on that antenna, what you need to do is to install 2 NARODs (two straight pieces of wire the same diameter as the elements) each 30.25 inches long, mounted 6 mm (edge of wire to edge of wire) one above the top stubs and one below the bottom stubs. The NARODs are NOT electrically attached to the antenna.


Like so:


----------



## ajg0711

araxaw, jsb_hburg, and Buckeye911


Thank You


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> wondering if there is any kind of "VHF/UHF" over power line" adapter like there is for Internet where wireless is not practical?



None that Im aware of, and if it did exist, would probably be more expensive than a long cable and preamp.


For the garage TV, consider installing a separate antenna as a solution.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimboG* /forum/post/19817013
> 
> 
> Oh goodness, they built a new airport nearby after you bought you house? Or perhaps the fact that you are near an existing airport already was compounded into the price of your residence at purchase.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt many pilots near you "loving going around in circles for joyrides". More likely, you are near the rectangular traffic pattern for a local general aviation field. You know: upwind, crosswind, downwind, base leg, final, that sort of thing?
> 
> 
> Perhaps you are a bit further from the airfield and you have folks doing turns around a fix or circling as part of practice instrument approaches. These are just the sort of key skills that you want a pilot to be proficient in before he flies a commercial or passenger aircraft. Heck, these are the sort of skills that he or she will need to know before flying over your head without an instructor pilot in the aircraft.
> 
> 
> If a new airport truly did open near your house, you have my sympathies for your newly inconvenient TV reception problems. If the airfield predates your ownership of the home, I would suggest you bother to do some research and exercise due diligence next time.



The airport was there when I bought the house, and shortly afterwards was acquired by my Village, which installed a lot of capital improvements.

I realize that the pilots aren't going up just to make my Milwaukee reception bad, I just choose to use humor to make myself feel better about it.

The reality is that it's not that often, but it becomes more noticable during NFL season (those hobby pilots are going up on weekends, when they're off work).

It's not nearly as annoying as living under an O'Hare flight path, and having to use the "Bensenville Pause" every time you are trying to have a conversation or use the phone.


----------



## JimboG




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/19844004
> 
> 
> The airport was there when I bought the house, and shortly afterwards was acquired by my Village, which installed a lot of capital improvements.
> 
> I realize that the pilots aren't going up just to make my Milwaukee reception bad, I just choose to use humor to make myself feel better about it.
> 
> The reality is that it's not that often, but it becomes more noticable during NFL season (those hobby pilots are going up on weekends, when they're off work).
> 
> It's not nearly as annoying as living under an O'Hare flight path, and having to use the "Bensenville Pause" every time you are trying to have a conversation or use the phone.



Somewhat off topic:


Sorry for the tone in the earlier post. It looks like the Village of Lake in the Hills really is putting a lot of effort and money into improving the municipal airfield. Your airport's designation as a receiver field of the year for O'Hare is no small thing.


There has to be some balance between reasonable noise restraints at airports near major population centers versus the most recent NIMBY to move in being able to shut an airfield completely.


When I was living in Colorado Springs, a new neighborhood called Peregrine was advertised as abutting the southern border of the US Air Force Academy. Not six months later, one of the new homeowners had the audacity to complain in the local paper and threaten to sue over all of the noise from glider tow planes and parachute drop planes flying overhead! It makes you wonder if she even read the advertising flyer for her new development.










I think we have come a long ways with public nuisance law from the 1800's when you could have slaughterhouses and rendering plants in residential neighborhoods. Nonetheless, I always wonder if folks so much as bothered to pull up Google Maps before buying a house. Perhaps there is a broadcast antenna, airport, power plant, or other vital infrastructure near your new house.


The NIMBY's near Lookout Mountain in Denver were some of the worst. They made all sorts of irrational claims about ELF/EMF radiation from the towers or the threat that a fire would cause a broadcast tower to land on their roof. They were very concerned about the health and safety of their children, just not concerned enough to sell the house and move. Those knuckleheads delayed full power HDTV in Denver for about five years!


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JimboG* /forum/post/19853562
> 
> 
> Somewhat off topic:
> 
> 
> When I was living in Colorado Springs, a new neighborhood called Peregrine was advertised as abutting the southern border of the US Air Force Academy. Not six months later, one of the new homeowners had the audacity to complain in the local paper and threaten to sue over all of the noise from glider tow planes and parachute drop planes flying overhead! It makes you wonder if she even read the advertising flyer for her new development.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The NIMBY's near Lookout Mountain in Denver were some of the worst. They made all sorts of irrational claims about ELF/EMF radiation from the towers or the threat that a fire would cause a broadcast tower to land on their roof. They were very concerned about the health and safety of their children, just not concerned enough to sell the house and move. Those knuckleheads delayed full power HDTV in Denver for about five years!



I live in Colorado Springs (retired AF BTW) and recall the flap about the AF Academy noise complaints. Let me see, the Academy and airfield have been there how long? Since the early 60s? And yeah, those yahoos up there near Lookout Mtn cracked me up. A Federal bill sponsered by Sens Salazar and Allard overuled all the local jurisdictions being used to delay implementation.


See the link below for details:

http://broadcastengineering.com/RF/l...bstacles-0104/ 


I have to say it does make a pretty sight in the morning when I'm driving into Denver on I-25 before sunrise seeing that all the red on the mountain top. But then I think aluminum forests with multiple antennas are things of beauty (like Sutro Tower in SF).


----------



## See The Light











*RCA ANT1450 Amplified Flat Multi-Directional Indoor Antenna*


The relative's home is 30 miles from the main tower array. So we do need an amplified antenna. The best solution will be an outdoor antenna, but that's another project for another time.


Higher is better, and the entertainment console is only 4 feet tall. So we've got a sealed empty box sitting on top of the VCR, that sits on top of the console, that adds another 2 feet.


No way at 30 miles form the towers to get all of the stations with just one placement of the antenna. So you must carefully tweak the position of the antenna, depending on what station you want to watch. We found the RCA works better flat, than vertical on it's stand. Mounting it on the wall is not an option, because at 30 miles from the towers, too much tweaking is required to watch all of the stations wanted.


We went with the RCA Flat antenna in the hopes it would survive a fall from the box on top of the entertainment console.


The previous antenna, the Phillips MANT410, had part of one of the dipoles break off, and then become unable to hold a position, after it's plunge from atop "the box".


---------------------------------


I do use a Phillips MANT410 at my home, about 15 miles from the towers, which sits on top of an entertainment console that is 5 feet tall, and, I get almost all of the channels I would care to watch, with one specific setting of the dipoles and the UHF loop.


Of course, on windy days, that setting does not do as well, with a large tree outside giving the trouble.


----------



## arxaw

If you relocate the antenna farther away from the TV and other electronic devices, it _may_ work better.


----------



## Dave Loudin

I really doubt that the amplifier is doing you any good, as it is amplifying the noise power just as much as the signal power.


----------



## 300ohm

Yep, Ive yet to see any indoor antennas with amps that have low noise. Low noise is more important for digital than it was for analog TV. I think they include amps on indoor TV antennas just to state a large gain figure on the box. It makes it sound powerful, heh.


----------



## holl_ands

An amplifier in an indoor antenna can be a very good thing, since it allows the designer

to make a much better VSWR match, greatly improving the efficiency of the antenna.

But, in strong signal areas, an amplified antenna can overload, desensitizing some weak stations.


RCA (and other) FLAT antennas are one of the WORST choices for an indoor antenna (see slide #10):
http://www.ccbe.ca/Downloads/CCBE200...ngDTVminFS.pdf 

Marcoux measured -6.8 dBi (UHF), -20.2 dBi (Hi-VHF) and -32.3 dBi (Lo-VHF). [Average?? Worst case??]


Perhaps you need to brush up on your Mechanical Engineering skillzzzz....

And locate the antenna as far away from other metal objects as possible....


----------



## vitod

Just received a CM 4220 with mast. If I install it outside, tell me what I need to install it safely. Right now I just have the 4220 and the mast.


Is this enough? http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Supplies&sku=


----------



## rabbit73

Quote:

Is this enough?
Yes, if you use the electrical power ground to ground your mast and the grounding block for the coax. This will drain any buildup of static charge on the antenna and provide a path to ground for any leakage current from your equipment. Equipment that has a two-wire polarized plug with a switchmode power supply can have normal leakage current greater than a power supply with a power transformer.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...0&postcount=12 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post18772087 


However, if you use a separate ground rod to ground the mast, then that ground rod must be bonded to the electrical power ground with a #6 wire to eliminate any difference of voltage between the two grounds as per NEC.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html scroll down to *Grounding outdoor antennas* and *The NEC requirement*.


Your local electrical inspector has the final say as to what is acceptable in your area.


----------



## vitod




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/19866597
> 
> 
> Yes, if you use the electrical power ground to ground your mast and the grounding block for the coax. This will drain any buildup of static charge on the antenna and provide a path to ground for any leakage current from your equipment. Equipment that has a two-wire polarized plug with a switchmode power supply can have normal leakage current greater than a power supply with a power transformer.
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...0&postcount=12
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post18772087
> 
> 
> However, if you use a separate ground rod to ground the mast, then that ground rod must be bonded to the electrical power ground with a #6 wire to eliminate any difference of voltage between the two grounds as per NEC.
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html scroll down to *Grounding outdoor antennas* and *The NEC requirement*.
> 
> 
> Your local electrical inspector has the final say as to what is acceptable in your area.



Thank you


----------



## doctorgoo

I finally got around to trying out an amplifier. I figured I would try the simplest (ie CHEAPEST) option first. I bought a Phillips 24DB dual output amplifier on ebay. I ran each side to a two way splitter. Now I've got a good signal to all four televisions and am even picking up WYCW which I did not expect. Easily the best 8 bucks I've spent in a while. Thanks to everyone for the info and advice. It took a while, but now we finally have a set up that we can live with.


----------



## 300ohm

Quote:

Easily the best 8 bucks I've spent in a while.
If it works for you, it certainly is. About 8 bucks is a fair price for it.

I tried all 4 units of that model Walmart had in stock at the time, and everyone overloaded my signal with pure noise, so I would say it was a design defect and not a manufacturing one. I suspect your ebay seller found that also to be true.

Quote:

I ran each side to a two way splitter.
I didnt do that, which I suspect helps the situation.


----------



## arxaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by *brandtlj* 
...Since the dipoles on this antenna do not swivel down completely flat, do you have any suggestions on how to optimize it for VHF - channel 12?...
Indoor/attic reception is a crap shoot, particularly with VHF, which has more trouble penetrating building materials than UHF. I would try different extended lengths of the rods. _Roughly_ 14" or ~27" each. Also, try fully extended and fully collapsed lengths. Try all of these at various rod angles, too. Wide & narrow "*V*" and fully vertical. Also, keep looking for a better hot spot for the antenna. Sometimes, _where_ the antenna is sitting makes a bigger difference than how you have the rods positioned or oriented.

Quote:

Also, would it do any good to put a sheet of tinfoil over cardboard directly behind the uhf loop?
It's worth a try. Experiment with different spacing between the antenna and the reflector.


.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Harley_Dude* 
I am looking to put up an outside antenna on my home in NW San Antonio. It looks like I'm about 32 miles from where the majority of the transmitters in the area are located (see attached).


Considering going with the Channel Master 4228 mounted on the ridge of my roof, replacing the spot where a DirecTV dish is mounted today so that it can use the coax that is running into my living room. I would also like to get the signal to my garage...but there isn't a cable drop out there and I was wondering if there is any kind of "VHF/UHF" over power line" adapter like there is for Internet where wireless is not practical? Running a drop to the garage would be cost prohibitive if not impossible where the TV needs to be placed.
You have two VHF channels. I have found that the 4228HD works well for VHF ch 9, at least in our area, but haven't tried it for VHF 12. You might want to consider an antenna specifically designed for both VHF-HI & UHF. Also, the 4228HD is quite large and may not fit on your existing sat dish mount.


A couple of VHF-HI/UHF antennas that should work well and would easily mount on your existing sat dish J-mount are:
http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out...B5C/ref=sr_1_1 
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...&condition=new


----------



## henbone11

Ok, I have to preface this by saying that I do not know much about antennas. I am positive that I need a good outside antenna mounted about about 20 feet high. I have some experience with indoor antennas (but who doesnt right?) and I know that there is a night and day difference between indoor and outdoor antennas. I am going to post my results from tv fool and would appreciate a trained eye to take a quick look and give any recommendations. it also looks like I will need uhf and vhf.


from the looks of it, im about 60 miles from the channels I would like to be able to receive.


I would probably be running 4 televisions off of the antenna, so what type of amplification would I need, if any?


because the azimuth goes from 32 to 304 degrees, am I going to have to get something motorized?


sorry for all the questions and thanks for your time.


guess it would help if I posted the link. lol

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...3cf40f910781aa


----------



## arxaw

You may be able to use a single combo antenna aimed at a sweet spot, and get _most_ of the channels ranging roughly from compass directions 88° - 127°. You would also need a high gain low noise preamp. If you want channels in more directions than that, you would very likely need multiple antennas or a rotor. With multiple TVs, a rotor is a big PITA.


Either of these antennas & the preamp in the last link should work well:
* http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HBU55 *
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HD7698P 
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=CM-7777 


Use RG6 coax - not RG59.


These may also be available locally or other online sites.


----------



## henbone11

thanks for the info arxaw, ill definitely look into it. appreciate your help.


----------



## tylerSC

Have seen HBU33 and HBU55 at RadioShack. They work well but build quality on Winegard versions is better.


----------



## arxaw

tylerSC, thanks for posting. In re-reading my post, I noticed I had posted an incorrect URL for a suggested antennacraft antenna. The HBU-55 has more gain than the HBU-44.


I agree about the winegard build quality. It also costs more.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/19900320
> 
> 
> I agree about the winegard build quality. It also costs more.



And averages 2 to 4 more dB's of gain for the same size antenna. (According to the manufacturers specs) You certainly get what you pay for with Winegard.


----------



## dvansowhat

My 7698 has gone through 2 winters and summers and 60+ mph. winds and nothing has fallen off yet. My parents 7698 receives stations at 60 mi. just fine with no amp. Build quality as mentioned is very good.


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/19901158
> 
> 
> And averages 2 to 4 more dB's of gain for the same size antenna. (According to the manufacturers specs) You certainly get what you pay for with Winegard.



There's a recent thread over at DHC regarding a shootout between 10-element high-VHF antennas from Winegard and AntennaCraft.


It's interesting....


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADTech* /forum/post/19905340
> 
> 
> There's a recent thread over at DHC regarding a shootout between 10-element high-VHF antennas from Winegard and AntennaCraft.
> 
> 
> It's interesting....



Thanks







, I saw that & it was very informative. I've always been curious which model was best for fringe areas. I may try the Antennacraft model this spring since it did a bit better in their testing.


----------



## arxaw

Link, please?


----------



## Digital Rules

 http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=133992


----------



## arxaw

D R, thanks for the link.


So, of the two, Y10-7-13 or YA-1713, which would you choose in the case below? Or is it even doable?










This is probably the only channel this person has any chance of receiving reliably, so a UHF antenna will not be purchased.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> It also costs more.



Right now its the other way around at Solid Signal with the AntennaCraft being about a buck more. The Y10-7-13 is 20 inches longer and has a bit more gain and lower SWR as modeled.


> Quote:
> Or is it even doable?



Mountains, huh ? He wont know until he tries. Itll cost him at least shipping charges to try. As you know, 2 edge stations are very tricky and placement can play a big factor. Aim for the mountain tops.



> Quote:
> This is probably the only channel this person has any chance of receiving reliably



Thats really pitiful, the worst Ive seen. Can he at least get broadband internet ? Most of the good PBS shows/videos are posted online anyway at PBS.org.


----------



## A J

I have a Winegard FV-HD30 VHF/UHF antenna in the attic, a 2 ft length of RG-6 from the balun to a 2-way splitter, 40+ ft of 17 year old RG-59 coax to my living room TV and about 12 ft of RG-6 to my bedroom TV. No pre-amp or distribution amp. Local stations are 8 UHF and one VHF (21 total sub-channels).


Even with the old RG-59 coax 6 of the 8 UHF stations peg my living room TV's meter at 10 bars, two are 8 bars, and the one VHF pegs the meter. Results on the bedroom TV are different. All 8 UHF stations peg the meter at 10 bars, but the one VHF station is unwatchable at one to two bars.


Both TVs are Samsung (one LCD and one LED). I experimented by bringing the bedroom TV into the living room and hooking it up there. Bingo, the VHF station pegged the meter. Overall results were identical to the living room TV, which eliminated tuner sensitivity as a factor. So, I concluded that something was wrong in the short RG-6 run to the bedroom. I replaced the entire run, new RG-6 lead from wall to TV, new male-to-male connector at wall plate, and new RG-6 (different brand than I had before) to splitter.


Nada, no change at all. I then switched leads on the splitter, followed by swapping in another splitter. Nothing changed. The VHF station is still unwatchable in the bedroom.


What in the heck is going on? How can 40+ feet of old RG-59 give better results on that one VHF station than 12 feet of RG-6? Any ideas? I am stumped.


AJ


----------



## Paul1000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A J* /forum/post/19912039
> 
> 
> 
> What in the heck is going on? How can 40+ feet of old RG-59 give better results on that one VHF station than 12 feet of RG-6? Any ideas? I am stumped.
> 
> 
> AJ



It is possible that the VHF station is overloading the tuner in your bedroom TV. The additional loss in the 40+ feet of RG-59 cable reduces the signal level just enough to let it work.


-Paul


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/19911189
> 
> 
> ...Thats really pitiful, the worst Ive seen. Can he at least get broadband internet ?



I have seen worse TVFool reports . It's feast or famine here, due to the hills & VALLEYS.


She cannot get broadband, as there is no cable or DSL within miles. 3G is available via verizon with an outdoor cellular antenna, but that's certainly not broadband. And even if she had 3G, there wouldn't be much "streaming" done with a 5g monthly data cap. So, she won't be streaming PBS, but would like to be able to watch it OTA for free.


We'll probably throw a dart at either the Winegard or Antennacraft and walk the property aimed at the hilltops.


----------



## ctdish

It might be overload, TVFool shows very strong TV and FM stations near his city. AJ could try making the signals weaker with an attenuator, four or more way splitter or just coiling up a very long cable. I would more strongly suspect FM overload. This can be remedied with an FM notch filter or something like this http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...HLSJ)&c=Signal Splitters&sku=

to provide rejection of everything below channel 7.

John


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I have seen worse TVFool reports.



Heh yeah. That one takes the cake, especially how relatively close the available transmitters are.


----------



## A J




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/19913151
> 
> 
> It might be overload, TVFool shows very strong TV and FM stations near his city. AJ could try making the signals weaker with an attenuator, four or more way splitter or just coiling up a very long cable. I would more strongly suspect FM overload.



I tried an FM trap and that didn't seem to affect anything. I then added a coil of 50 feet of RG-6 between the splitter and the 12 ft of coax going to the bedroom TV. Then, the VHF channel came in OK, so I guess it was a matter of overload.


That VHF station (actual ch. 11) is fairly close-by (15.1 miles and LOS) and it can be received with a UHF-only indoor antenna, like a loop or bow-tie.


AJ


----------



## tshaff09

Hi...anybody have these available? With details of parts needed? I was going to try one with VHF add-on. I know it's on here somewhere...1/12 copper+pvc connectors.. urgh been searching can't find it


----------



## arxaw

This was in the first google hit (internet, not this forum):
http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/design.htm


----------



## Dave Loudin

Go to this thread on the Antenna Research & Development sub forum at digital home:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=81982 


There's been quite a lot of tweaking of the basic design since the page you linked to was posted.


----------



## 300ohm

Latest GH with NARODs (for vhf-hi) optimized tweaks are here:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=121956 


Nikiml also has interactive sizes here:

http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/gh_n3_uV.html 



> Quote:
> With details of parts needed?



Heres one of many plans, using an older version of the SBGH with NARODs :
http://mysite.verizon.net/res11d41p/index.html 

Just adapt his basic structure to the newer models. And remember, the cheaper gray (not the white) electrical pvc is the superior material to use.


----------



## darkarcher

I have finally had it and am ditching my cable service.


I would rather do an attic antenna if at all possible. I have 6 TV's in my house and the cables to access them are either routed to the media closet or through the attic directly to the TV's. Really just looking for suggestions.


Thanks


Dark!


----------



## A J




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *darkarcher* /forum/post/20101822
> 
> 
> I would rather do an attic antenna if at all possible. I have 6 TV's in my house and the cables to access them are either routed to the media closet or through the attic directly to the TV's.



I recently installed an antenna in my attic with excellent results. One of my local stations is in the high VHF band so I chose a VHF/UHF antenna. Since the station directions range across 62 degrees I also chose an antenna which isn't too directional and aimed it midway between the extremes. This is the antenna I bought.
http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-FV-HD...9348429&sr=8-4 


The distance from my home to the transmitter towers range from 15 to 37 miles and I split to two TVs. No pre-amp or distribution amp was needed. An abbreviated TVFool chart for my location is at the bottom.


In your case I would think all of the stations in the green and yellow on your TVFool chart are easily in range of an attic antenna. A couple of your stations in yellow might require a rotor to point the antenna. If you don't need those stations a fixed antenna (like mine) pointed midway between the other stations will probably work nicely. One point to keep in mind is that positioning the antenna a few feet to one side or the other often makes a world of difference once you find the sweet spot.


Splitting to 6 TVs may be the bugaboo and require a distribution amplifier to avoid signal loss.


AJ


----------



## darkarcher

Thanks AJ


I haven't seen anyone recommend using more than one antenna. Not to seem simplistic but wouldn't I be able to use 2 antennae(sp?)


----------



## Wolvereen

Hi all, completely new to HDTV OTA reception, and my head is about to burst from all the research I have been doing. I have spoken with friends who made the switch, but can't seem to reach consensus on which antenna would best suit my needs.


I live in a 2 story home in the Fresno/Clovis area of CA. There are no large trees or buildings surrounding my home. There is a satellite dish currently mounted to the eve of my home, there is a sat/antenna run to the install location and the house was pre-wired for sat/antenna install.


I have been to TV Fool (link here ).


I am hoping that I might get some advice on at least what type/brand is worth investigating. I plan on removing the existing dish and replacing it with the antenna. The community I live in has a HOA, while I know I have the right to receive OTA signals, I would prefer to not create any issues (so 8 foot receivers are not preferred).


Channels that I care about are all UHF. Most are along a compass heading of approximately 33° and are 24 miles away or closer. The only exception is KMPH-DT 26.1 FOX VISALIA, CA which is 92° and 48.8 miles away.


Any thoughts/ideas/suggestions?


Thanks in advance!!


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Wolvereen* 
Hi all, completely new to HDTV OTA reception, and my head is about to burst from all the research I have been doing. I have spoken with friends who made the switch, but can't seem to reach consensus on which antenna would best suit my needs.


I live in a 2 story home in the Fresno/Clovis area of CA. There are no large trees or buildings surrounding my home. There is a satellite dish currently mounted to the eve of my home, there is a sat/antenna run to the install location and the house was pre-wired for sat/antenna install.


I have been to TV Fool (link here ).


I am hoping that I might get some advice on at least what type/brand is worth investigating. I plan on removing the existing dish and replacing it with the antenna. The community I live in has a HOA, while I know I have the right to receive OTA signals, I would prefer to not create any issues (so 8 foot receivers are not preferred).


Channels that I care about are all UHF. Most are along a compass heading of approximately 33° and are 24 miles away or closer. The only exception is KMPH-DT 26.1 FOX VISALIA, CA which is 92° and 48.8 miles away.


Any thoughts/ideas/suggestions?


Thanks in advance!!
Your TVFool looks quite uncomplicated.


A ClearStream 2 from Antennas Direct should work fine for you. It has a nice, well defined 70 degree beamwidth and is compact enough to be unobtrusive, even less so than a satellite dish.


Aim it around 70 or 80 degrees magnetic


----------



## A J

Quote:

Originally Posted by *darkarcher* 
I haven't seen anyone recommend using more than one antenna. Not to seem simplistic but wouldn't I be able to use 2 antennae(sp?)
I can read in two different interpretations there, but rather than asking which you meant, I'll take a shot at one and leave the other for someone with expertize in that area.


If you mean two antennas (one VHF and one UHF, or two pointed in different directions), both joined to a single coax, I've know that it can be done, but I haven't tried it. Others can answer that.


If you mean multiple antennas, each split to 2 or 3 TVs, rather than one antenna split to 6 TVs, then sure, that would work. You could even have 3 antennas, each with a 2-way passive splitter. You probably should avoid placing the antennas very close to each other.


AJ


----------



## darkarcher

Yes I was just thinking of having multiple antennas, each connected to a different set of TV's.


Was there anything that led you to the antenna that you purchased? I found it on amazon (via the link you provided) and it seems to be reasonably priced. I may give it a shot!


Thanks


----------



## 300ohm

Quote:

A ClearStream 2 from Antennas Direct should work fine for you. It has a nice, well defined 70 degree beamwidth and is compact enough to be unobtrusive, even less so than a satellite dish.
Theres a ton of possible good channels there in his TVFool. I think the ideal situation would be with 2 ClearStream 2's with their reflectors removed and two separate coax downleads into an A-B switch at the TV. Mount the C2's 90 degrees apart from each other. With the reflectors removed, it will look even less obtrusive. Since channels 7 and 11 are so strong, the reflectorless C2 will get them too.



A cheaper alternative would be to build 2 SBGH's without reflectors. Easy to do.


----------



## A J




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *darkarcher* /forum/post/20103563
> 
> 
> Was there anything that led you to the antenna that you purchased? I found it on amazon (via the link you provided) and it seems to be reasonably priced. I may give it a shot!



Incoming signal strength is pretty good for my area (a $4 Radio Shack bowtie antenna will get most stations OK) so I didn't need a large rooftop antenna. I did need both VHF and UHF and not too highly directional. I like Amazon.com (low prices, free shipping on most items, no sales tax, and easy to return something for refund if it isn't what you expected). So, I searched their antenna inventory and found that one (Winegard FV-HD30) which had excellent reviews. Your local Radio Shack might be another good source for buy/try/return if it doesn't work.


You might first experiment with one antenna in your attic, hooked up to one TV, then two, etc. If it isn't satisfactory you can always get a refund. If it can handle 2 TVs, but not 3, then you would know how to proceed. Bear in mind that every site is unique, with different terrain, trees, structures in the signal path, etc. The same antenna that gets good reception at one home may prove to be inadequate at another house.


I removed the head off an old, lightweight camera tripod and bolted the antenna onto the tripod's center post using the hardware which came with the antenna. The tripod made it easy to move the antenna around in my attic until I found the sweet spot for best reception (via feedback from my better half planted in front of the TV).


Good luck if you decide to drop cable. My wife and I get along just fine with the local OTA stations and Netflix streaming video (we bought a Roku XD), so our total outlay for TV is $7.99 a month for Netflix, compared to almost $100 a month for digital cable.


AJ


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/20103925
> 
> 
> Theres a ton of possible good channels there in his TVFool. I think the ideal situation would be with 2 ClearStream 2's with their reflectors removed and two separate coax downleads into an A-B switch at the TV. Mount the C2's 90 degrees apart from each other. With the reflectors removed, it will look even less obtrusive. Since channels 7 and 11 are so strong, the reflectorless C2 will get them too.
> 
> 
> 
> A cheaper alternative would be to build 2 SBGH's without reflectors. Easy to do.



True. However, my suggestion will give him exactly what he asked for. Since he indicated he wasn't interested in the other stuff, it wasn't considered.


I've played with two reflector-less C2 loops mounted at 90 degrees apart and combined with a good two-way splitter. It made a decent "omni" UHF antenna when I tested it.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> True. However, my suggestion will give him exactly what he asked for. Since he indicated he wasn't interested in the other stuff, it wasn't considered.
> 
> 
> I've played with two reflector-less C2 loops mounted at 90 degrees apart and combined with a good two-way splitter. It made a decent "omni" UHF antenna when I tested it.



Ditto. I've done all sorts of hacks on my Clearstream 4. Removing the reflector makes an okay bidirectional, but the horizontal beamwidth is so tight that it isn't very useful.

But splitting them into a pair of C2s has been very informative. Stacking them vertically with reflectors worked better than the stock horizontal gang. Offsetting them 100 degrees for two cities works in a number of ways; if the 2 cities are both fairly close and there are no co-channels, you can combine them. If one city is too weak for combining, the remote controlled A-B switch will take care of that.

Next I would like to build a rig so that I can gang them horizontally, but vary the spread distance from stock out to about 5 feet. Then I can experiment with the "two-antenna trick" detailed on HDTVprimer.com. If I can get the lobes to split far enough off center, I might be able to find a sweet spot that gets me Chicago and Milwaukee through a single input. This would be about 30 stations and 80 channels, quite a haul without using the rotor or A-B switch.


----------



## Wolvereen

Thanks for your responses!


I am going to check out the C2, you are indeed correct that I don't really care about the VHF offerings. We pretty much watch NBC, CBS, ABC, Fox and PBS. The rest I "season pass" from iTunes (AMC stuff, etc).


I was most concerned with the milage to the FOX affiliate, as it is 50 miles away. Do you think the C2 will reach 49 miles?


Again, thanks so much for the advice!


P.S. Is there anything else I should include in the purchase? Rotator, amplifier, etc?


----------



## arxaw

Ignore mileage. The channels of interest you mentioned are strong enough for a good 2bay UHF antenna to work well, aimed at a sweet spot somewhere between roughly E/NE & E. An amp should not be needed.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I was most concerned with the milage to the FOX affiliate, as it is 50 miles away. Do you think the C2 will reach 49 miles?



Yeah, no problem. You got a 47.6 NM for it Line Of Sight. I wouldnt be surprised if you could get that station with just a dinky rubber ducky antenna on a portable TV, heh.



> Quote:
> P.S. Is there anything else I should include in the purchase? Rotator, amplifier, etc?



Just some good quality RG-6 cable and a mast setup. The C2 comes with a balun. Dont buy more cable than you need. RG-6 Quad shouldnt be necessary (has higher loss than RG-6) unless you plan to run the cable very close to power lines.


----------



## karmasalad

 TVFool report 


Live on the 1st floor of a 2-story condo, facing South. According to the TVF report, most channels are to the NW.


Initially tried a Terk HDTVa, but reception was spotty and pixelated. Positioning it to get ABC often meant losing NBC. It seemed to pick up the most channels when aiming the antenna to the SE (corner wall so may be picking reflection?).


The most important channels we want to pick up are: KNBC, KTTV, KCBS, KABC, and KPXN. KCAL and KTLA would be gravy. The other channels aren't of much importance to us.


Our only option is indoor, and it must be WAF-friendly. Any suggestions?


Thanks in advance!


----------



## arxaw

With your TVFool, this specific model antenna at RadioShack should work well. Can't help w/ the WAF. The last thing you need is an amplified antenna.


If it doesn't work well, you likely have stucco or other exterior building materials that block TV reception. Other blockers are tile or metal roofs, foil-backed wall insulation or low-e insulating windows. If none of these, you could also have interference, often from the electronics in or around your TV. Add a longer coax, using a barrel splice to get the antenna away from any electronic devices. Through slow trial and error, move the antenna around the room a foot or two at a time or into another room or closet, to find a reception hot spot. Extend the dipole rods about halfway each in length. Near a window may be your best location.


----------



## holl_ands

Since ABC is Ch7 (Hi-VHF) and NBC is Ch36 (UHF), adjust the HDTVa "arrow" direction for best NBC

reception and THEN adjust the collapsible Rabbit Ears (14.5" each) for best Ch7 reception...might

end up splayed to either side....or in a vertical "VEE".....

And as always: location, location, location......


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *karmasalad* /forum/post/20111571
> 
> TVFool report
> 
> 
> Live on the 1st floor of a 2-story condo, facing South. According to the TVF report, most channels are to the NW.
> 
> 
> Initially tried a Terk HDTVa, but reception was spotty and pixelated. Positioning it to get ABC often meant losing NBC. It seemed to pick up the most channels when aiming the antenna to the SE (corner wall so may be picking reflection?).
> 
> 
> The most important channels we want to pick up are: KNBC, KTTV, KCBS, KABC, and KPXN. KCAL and KTLA would be gravy. The other channels aren't of much importance to us.
> 
> 
> Our only option is indoor, and it must be WAF-friendly. Any suggestions?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance!



The budget Radioshack antenna sould work. With the HDTVa you are probably overamplifying the signal and overloading the tuner. The unamplified HDTVi version should work better in a strong signal area. Adjust UHF arrow element and VHF rabbit ears accordingly. If you still have it, try the HDTVa without the inline amplifier. Connect to longer cable if needed with barrel splice.


----------



## macd23

If I get a cheap indoor digital antenna at Best Buy and hook it up to my Samsung built in HD tuner television is that all I need to recieve CBS in HD for the march madness basketball games? Anyone know what channel it is in Boston/Quincy area?


----------



## arxaw

macd23, A simple indoor antenna may be all you need, but impossible to tell, without some idea of signal strength at your address. Post back with a link to the TVFool results page for your address. Your address will not display.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *macd23* /forum/post/20130638
> 
> 
> If I get a cheap indoor digital antenna at Best Buy and hook it up to my Samsung built in HD tuner television is that all I need to recieve CBS in HD for the march madness basketball games? Anyone know what channel it is in Boston/Quincy area?



You won't find a cheap indoor antenna at Best Buy. They are all overpriced and mostly junk. The Terk flat panels are designed for aesthetics and don't work that well. Way too expensive. But the Clearstream Antennas are good indoor antennas if you need UHF reception but they are priced too high at BB. And they may still have a basic loop and dipole RCA antenna for around 10 bucks but the budget Radioshack version works much better. Decide if you need VHF or UHF for CBS and consider what your signal levels are.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

All Boston stations are UHF (except some lame shopping channel).


When it comes to UHF indoors, I haven't found a better antenna for UHF than the C2. The Silver Sensor clones are pretty good, but the C2 is better, regardless of your opinion of the price.


If you're close to your towers, you might be able to get by with a simple loop or bow-tie. Both are very inexpensive.


----------



## macd23

Thanks guys, I am pretty much ignorant of antennas, they were only heavily in use when I was a little tyke in the early 80s then cable came.


I know UHF and VHF are different signals or something but that is about it.


HEre are the results from tvfool:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...59790214ce3e90 



And I was wondering if either of these would work:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062017 


or:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077


----------



## gbynum




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *macd23* /forum/post/20133606
> 
> 
> Here are the results from tvfool: {trimmed by gbynum}
> 
> 
> And I was wondering if either of these would work: {trimmed by gbynum}



With those signal strengths, a piece of wire in the antenna jack will probably work.


BUT, I note that you have Comcast ... without reviewing the thread, I wonder if you have hooked the cable directly to the TV and scanned for QAM signals ... in most cases, you will find the major locals in clear HD.


----------



## arxaw

The $4 bowtie might work for channels down to & including WGBX on your TVFool report. Definitely worth a try. You will also need a 300ohm to 75ohm transformer in order to connect it to your TV's 75 ohm antenna connector. Radio Shack should have those, too.










If cable/off-air options are present in your TV's channel setup menu,

Be sure to select off-air (antenna) channels, *not* cable channels. If no such options are present, just run a full auto-scan.


----------



## macd23

ok, thanks about the ohm transformer, I never would have known that. I did look at the TV's manual and it isn't very imformative but what I gather from that and from a little research here is that to get CBS, on my local setup, I would need to go the air setting, and then select 4 - 1 (the TV uses a dash to select 'digital chanels' it says in book).

Am I right?


gbynum I don't have Comcast anymore, time to update my profile. I have Verizon FIOS at home. This isn't at home. I'll leave it at that.










*The TV I am hooking into is a samsung lcd ln52c530, the manual and specs say "built in HD decoder or tuner"


It has a coax antenna input in the back, this is 75 ohm? I need a transformer to convert the antenna from 300 ohm to 75 ohm? Can I use regular coax cable for this? Please explain in dummy terms as I am ignorant of this terminology.


Looks like I need this then?

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...lickid=prod_cs 


or this:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...lickid=prod_cs 

Thanks*


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *macd23* /forum/post/20133753
> 
> 
> ok, thanks about the ohm transformer, I never would have known that. I did look at the TV's manual and it isn't very imformative but what I gather from that and from a little research here is that to get CBS, on my local setup, I would need to go the air setting, and then select 4 - 1 (the TV uses a dash to select 'digital chanels' it says in book).
> 
> Am I right?



You need to perform an initial setup scan for channels, select off-air antenna if that option is available. Otherwise do a full autoscan. *After* doing a scan for channels, then you can hit Ch up or Ch dn to go to the desired channel. Or use direct channel entry on the remote.



> Quote:
> The TV I am hooking into is a samsung lcd ln52c530, the manual and specs say "built in HD decoder or tuner"
> 
> 
> It has a coax antenna input in the back, this is 75 ohm? I need a transformer to convert the antenna from 300 ohm to 75 ohm?



To directly connect the bowtie antenna to the TV, use this type of transformer/adapter:







It has a push on connector for attaching to the TV's 75 ohm coax screw-on connector. All new TVs have 75 ohm antenna connectors.


If you need to use a longer piece of coax to put the antenna in a different spot away from the TV (TVs can sometimes interfere with reception), use one of these and attach a longer coax wire to it, for finding a hot spot for the antenna.


----------



## macd23

I am going out at lunch to get the stuff. The TV setup now has channel setup: antenna: air (other option is cable). I also saw the auto-program where it scans.


Will let you know how I make out!


----------



## macd23

Update: partial success.


I bought this one:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077 


Cause it has a 4foot coax cable with 75 ohm out already on it. The bowtie needed the adapter and ended up being more expensive.



I pick up channel 5 (ABC) and a couple others but CBS I had the harddest time with. I did finally get it to come in but I have to hold the antenna in a certain spot. Was thinking of getting a coupler to extend the coax so I can try other spots and near the window/outer wall of the room and point directly towards Boston. Now I can't even get to channel 4-1 anymore, the tv won't take it when I punch it in. Somehow before it took it when I punched it in even though there was no signal then when I moved around it came in...


The other option the Radio Shack guy had was with a built in amplifier. Are those any good?

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=3611256


----------



## LithOTA

Quote:

Originally Posted by *macd23* 
Update: partial success.


I bought this one:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077 


Cause it has a 4foot coax cable with 75 ohm out already on it. The bowtie needed the adapter and ended up being more expensive.



I pick up channel 5 (ABC) and a couple others but CBS I had the harddest time with. I did finally get it to come in but I have to hold the antenna in a certain spot. Was thinking of getting a coupler to extend the coax so I can try other spots and near the window/outer wall of the room and point directly towards Boston. Now I can't even get to channel 4-1 anymore, the tv won't take it when I punch it in. Somehow before it took it when I punched it in even though there was no signal then when I moved around it came in...


The other option the Radio Shack guy had was with a built in amplifier. Are those any good?

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=3611256
I bought that one when I was first experimenting with OTA. It works pretty well, but the amplifier may actually hurt reception in some cases. This seems counterintuitive, but the amp adds noise.

Considering the noise margin of your stations, and the fact that the top 14 stations are all UHF, you might do better with an Eagle Aspen DB2. It is small enough for indoors, has a reflector for better directionality, and costs less than the amplified rabbit ears from RS.

If the VHF stations are important to you (WWDP-46, WNAC-64, & WPRI-12), try using your rabbit ears for those. But the UHF loop on the rabbit ears is pretty weak, so using a DB2 for UHF would work a lot better. You can separate the 2 antennas using a UVSJ.


----------



## macd23

Success!!


I jerry rigged a "tower" consisting of a PC, a lunch container and a cardboard box, and stuffed the antenna into the top of the cardboard box facing SOUTH-SOUTHEAST and CBS comes in crystal clear!! This is the exact opposite direction of Boston in the building I'm in but whatever!!!


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *macd23* /forum/post/20135784
> 
> 
> Success!!
> 
> 
> I jerry rigged a "tower" consisting of a PC, a lunch container and a cardboard box, and stuffed the antenna into the top of the cardboard box facing SOUTH-SOUTHEAST and CBS comes in crystal clear!! This is the exact opposite direction of Boston in the building I'm in but whatever!!!



As others have said, the physical location of the antenna and a hot spot is often more important than what direction it's pointing, particular indoors, where signals are bouncing all over the place. Glad it worked for you. If you have problems later, add a longer coax with a barrel splice and move it to a more desirable location.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I bought this one:
> 
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077
> 
> 
> Cause it has a 4foot coax cable with 75 ohm out already on it. The bowtie needed the adapter and ended up being more expensive.



??? The bowtie with the adapter would have been less, based on the overpriced prices posted. The $4 RS classic bowtie has more uhf gain and is easier to deal with when locating hot spots over the rabbit ears with loop model.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *macd23* /forum/post/20135784
> 
> 
> Success!!
> 
> 
> I jerry rigged a "tower" consisting of a PC, a lunch container and a cardboard box, and stuffed the antenna into the top of the cardboard box facing SOUTH-SOUTHEAST and CBS comes in crystal clear!! This is the exact opposite direction of Boston in the building I'm in but whatever!!!



The correct aim for an antenna is the direction where it works. If the bowtie would be more convenient, it's likely someone you know probably has an adapter they aren't using. The adapter for the bowtie is the same as what is used with rabbit ears. I had at least 4 of them going into the transition, without really looking.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/20131464
> 
> 
> All Boston stations are UHF (except some lame shopping channel).
> 
> 
> When it comes to UHF indoors, I haven't found a better antenna for UHF than the C2. The Silver Sensor clones are pretty good, but the C2 is better, regardless of your opinion of the price.
> 
> 
> If you're close to your towers, you might be able to get by with a simple loop or bow-tie. Both are very inexpensive.



I agree that the Clearstream antennas are excellent for indoor UHF. I use an indoor CS1 with 3ft RG6 coax into a Channel Master 13db dist amp and receive strong consistent signals on channels 75 miles away. They are just overpriced at Best Buy. Can be found for less at Costco and other online sources. But excellent antennas nevertheless.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by macd23 View Post
> 
> Success!!
> 
> 
> I jerry rigged a "tower" consisting of a PC, a lunch container and a cardboard box, and stuffed the antenna into the top of the cardboard box facing SOUTH-SOUTHEAST and CBS comes in crystal clear!! This is the exact opposite direction of Boston in the building I'm in but whatever!!!



First off, that antenna has no reflectors or directors and is naturally bi-directional. So there is no front or back to that antenna.


Second, inside of a building, signals are reflected all over the place. You never know where they are until you test for them.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/20139792
> 
> 
> First off, that antenna has no reflectors or directors and is naturally bi-directional. So there is no front or back to that antenna.
> 
> 
> Second, inside of a building, signals are reflected all over the place. You never know where they are until you test for them.



Multipath can be present both indoors and outdoors. The number of people with outdoor setups and underemployed fixed antenna aims is by no means zero. They go with a compass and bypass the learning curve sometimes. That's not always a good thing.


----------



## LithOTA

I spent a cold, windy day today replacing the stuctural mast that holds up my rotor, rotating mast, and antennas. The former mast was composed of three parts, with joints that were too loosey-goosey for my tastes. I use a "deck adapter" brand mount designed for sat dishes. Ironically, it works really well when screwed to the wood deck behind my house. It has a yoke and a short tube, and I had a 5 foot steel mast bolted to that, and then a 10 foot chunk of 1.5 inch EMT coupled to that. The EMT was then bracketted to the house, with the rotor and bearing attached at the top. This allowed me to simply unbolt the bracket and walk the mast up & down with the deck adapter acting like a hinge.

Problem was, those joints below the bracket would flex under a wind load and transmit a creak into the wall behind my bed.

So I have used two peices of 1.5 inch galvanized ridgid tube- a 10 foot and a 5 foot-with a threaded coupling. I drilled holes on one end of the 5 footer (for the hinge bolt) and cranked them together with a pair of pipe wrenches.

So where I had 3 joints before, I now have just one, and it's a much stronger one. It's pretty windy out there and the whole rig is nice and still, with none of the flex I had before. The project is a huge success, and it really makes sense to use the rock-solid GRT for the lower mast and lighter EMT for the upper mast.


----------



## allworld

Ok I have a small Monoprice antenna mounted at the top of my roof. I am using 2 HD homeruns and I have some minor dropping out and pixelating on ABC and CBS. My signal strength on the HD homerun shows about 80 and dips below that when pixelating begins. Here are my tvfool results and I am looking for any suggestion. I do not know much about the amps and pre amps and wonder if that is what I may need.


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...73ed6608f11ef3 



Here is my antenna.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2


----------



## Sammer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *allworld* /forum/post/20142597
> 
> 
> Ok I have a small Monoprice antenna mounted at the top of my roof. I am using 2 HD homeruns and I have some minor dropping out and pixelating on ABC and CBS. My signal strength on the HD homerun shows about 80 and dips below that when pixelating begins. Here are my tvfool results and I am looking for any suggestion. I do not know much about the amps and pre amps and wonder if that is what I may need.
> 
> 
> http://?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29...59798056346e9a
> 
> 
> 
> Here is my antenna.
> 
> http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2



The url for your TV Fool results didn't work for me. The MonoPrice page states "The antenna features state-of-the-art low noise amplifier technology and circuits for the best reception." That's probably an exaggeration but a second amplifier with that antenna isn't likely to be a good idea.


----------



## 300ohm

Yeah, the TVFool link isnt working for me either.


I think youre going to need a much beefier antenna than the mono-price one.


----------



## rabbit73

Quote:

Originally Posted by *allworld* 
Ok I have a small Monoprice antenna mounted at the top of my roof. I am using 2 HD homeruns and I have some minor dropping out and pixelating on ABC and CBS. My signal strength on the HD homerun shows about 80 and dips below that when pixelating begins. Here are my tvfool results and I am looking for any suggestion. I do not know much about the amps and pre amps and wonder if that is what I may need.

http://http://www.tvfool.com/?option...59798056346e9a 


Here is my antenna.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2
You doubled the http when you entered the URL for your tvfool report. There is already one in the link box where you enter the URL. Is this your report?
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...59798056346e9a 


If it is, you have a lot of strong signals that might overload a preamp, or the 20 dB integral amp in your HDA-5700.


----------



## 300ohm

Quote:

I am using 2 HD homeruns and I have some minor dropping out and pixelating on ABC and CBS.
Yeah, those are strong signals, if thats your TVFool listing. You dont need ANY amplification as you could be severely overloading as Rabbit73 says. A $4 Radio Shack Classic uhf bowtie with balun into a splitter is really all you need. It should pick up channel 12 at those signal strengths.


----------



## allworld

Quote:

Originally Posted by *300ohm* 
Yeah, those are strong signals, if thats your TVFool listing. You dont need ANY amplification as you could be severely overloading as Rabbit73 says. A $4 Radio Shack Classic uhf bowtie with balun into a splitter is really all you need. It should pick up channel 12 at those signal strengths.
Ok I went out and bought a RCA ANT751 http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out.../dp/B0024R4B5C and it is mounted at the peak of my roof on the fascia board. I have 2 HD homeruns and using Sagetv through out house. There is a 3 way splitter inside that goes to my hdhr's. I still get weak signal on channel 9(80%) and channel 19(85%).


----------



## The Hound

You are still getting drop outs at 80-85% signal strength?


----------



## allworld

Quote:

Originally Posted by *The Hound* 
You are still getting drop outs at 80-85% signal strength?
Not complete drop out. I was getting pixelation a few times through out a show. I will have to watch some more shows with the new antenna and se what happens. I was having problems with my unraid server crashing which may have been causing the pixelation.


----------



## LithOTA

Of course, signal strength "percentages" can vary greatly depending on the tuner. The important thing about those is to figure out what percentage number correlates to an SNR of 15.6:1, the "digital cliff".

For example, on the tuner module in my Dish box, this is a level of 60. My MicroGem boxes from CompUSA use 40. Some tuners might use zero for the bottom.

Once you know this minimum number, it's a lot easier to have an idea of what number you need to make a station "reliable". I like to see at least 75 on the Dish tuner, and 50 on the MicroGem, for good, solid reception.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Ok I went out and bought a RCA ANT751 http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out.../dp/B0024R4B5C and it is mounted at the peak of my roof on the fascia board. I have 2 HD homeruns and using Sagetv through out house. There is a 3 way splitter inside that goes to my hdhr's. I still get weak signal on channel 9(80%) and channel 19(85%).



It sounds like you have an open on your 3 way splitter. Get a 75 ohm terminator for it or if not locally available or too costly for a 5 or 10 pack, just get a 2 way splitter.


----------



## LithOTA

It's fun analyzing your location on TV Fool, especially playing with the antenna height and seeing how it affects the results. But switching between tables of numbers doesn't tell you much, the data needs to be organized. So I ran my location, starting at 5 feet and increasing in 10 foot intervals up to 115 feet. I transferred the noise margin data to a spreadsheet in order to get a better feel for what's going on.

In the first chart, "Chicago", you can see the noise margin scale on the left, and the channels scale underneath. The channels are arranged from strongest to weakest at my actual antenna height, 25'. Check out how the lower altitude transmitters- 24, 20, & 66- become much stronger when raising the height gets them out from behind an edge so they become line-of-sight.

In the second chart, "Rockford", you can see again how increases in height will suddenly bring the signal way up. Channel 39's transmitter is low on the tower, so I would have to go a lot higher to get that one to improve like the other 3.

The third chart, "Milwaukee", shows how distance starts to assert itself. All of the channels are very consistent, and every 10 feet of elevation would only get me a little less than one dB improvement. Not much point in raising my antenna to get better Milwaukee.

This fact really hits home on the fourth chart, "Madison". There is almost no improvement to any of the channels, even if I had a monster tower over 100 feet tall. Being 85 miles out, "it is what it is."

This exercise has been very enlightening, and has convinced me that even if I doubled, trippled, or quadrupled the height of my mast, the results would be about the same. Chicago and Rockford would improve a lot, but that's a Pyrrhic improvement from "very good" to "great". Milwaukee and Madison would not improve enough to fundamentally change daily reception, so I will forget about more height and concentrate on better gain.

This would be a great way for any of you out there to analyze your own location, especially if you are considering more altitude for better reception.

 

Madison NM Data.pdf 6.810546875k . file

 

Milwaukee NM Data.pdf 7.0625k . file

 

Rockford NM Data.pdf 6.53125k . file

 

Chicago NM Data.pdf 7.6748046875k . file


----------



## joeydrunk

Hey guys, money had been tight so I just recently decide to cut the cable cord and am now using my Htpc with xbmc, Netflix,zinc,hulu, and boxee.


I want o get an indoor ota antenna to watch hd an SD channels in my area. The old lady has a few shows she can't live without plus its much simpler for her to use. I have no idea about antennas and I want the best bang for my buck. My price limit is aprox $30. Any ideas?


I live in an apartment by the way.


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/20163479
> 
> 
> It's fun analyzing your location on TV Fool, especially playing with the antenna height and seeing how it affects the results.



I did something similar in 2008 when I upgraded our antenna system. Like you I did not see much different going up a couple of hundred feet. Height is useful but it cannot defeat the inverse square law.


TV Fool model probably understates real world height improvement until you get to 75-100 feet because while it models topology it does not model obstructions like trees and buildings. Even though our antenna is 30 feet above ground it is behind 70 foot high trees.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I have no idea about antennas and I want the best bang for my buck. My price limit is aprox $30. Any ideas?



Post your TVFool image.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *joeydrunk* /forum/post/20163742
> 
> 
> ...I want o get an indoor ota antenna to watch hd an SD channels in my area.



Not enough info to suggest any antennas whatsoever.


Enter your home address at: http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=29 

Post a link to the results page, here. Your address will not display.


----------



## jtbell

Quote:

Originally Posted by *LithOTA* 
It's fun analyzing your location on TV Fool, especially playing with the antenna height and seeing how it affects the results.
Here's another example, with the data plotted differently: NM versus height, with a separate line for each station. Stations in different DMAs use different line styles (dashes).

 

TV Signals.pdf 145.45703125k . file


----------



## joeydrunk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Not enough info to suggest any antennas whatsoever.
> 
> 
> Enter your home address at: http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=29
> 
> Post a link to the results page, here. Your address will not display.



Herr it is. Also I live close to the Canadian border and that's where a lot of the strong channels come from. I was told their still using analog up their for another 6 months and then switching over to digital. I would like to be able to pick those up as well.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8d17e333ac492c


----------



## breathofj

Hi, everyone. The info in this thread has been great, and I've learned a ton about what I might need. But I figured I'd post my TVFool info and see if you guys have any more educated suggestions for an antenna.


My situation: I'm going to have to stick to an indoor antenna because of my apartment building. I understand that this limits me a great deal in terms of signal strength and what I can do, but my hands are tied.


My TVFool Info: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8d173e20efc8f1 


From what I'm seeing, it LOOKS like I'm okay with an indoor antenna. I'm a sports freak, specifically an SEC college football freak, so CBS is my most important OTA channel. CBS is still in the "Green", meaning good for indoor antenna, but it's pretty close.


So, with all that, is there a good indoor antenna suggestion that works best, or fits my mold best? Right now I have a Terk HDTVa sitting in my cart on Amazon, but I wanted to get some feedback before I ordered that.


Oh, and I should say that all of this is stemming from me making the very tentative and frightening decision to "ditch" my dish. Hulu Plus on my PS3, Netflix, ESPN 3 on my Xbox, and NBA package on my Apple TV cover most of my needs. I'm just too scared not to have an antenna as well.


Thanks so much, guys!


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/20169134
> 
> 
> Here's another example, with the data plotted differently: NM versus height, with a separate line for each station. Stations in different DMAs use different line styles (dashes).



It is very revealing. I kept going and found out that I would have to go up to 175 feet in order to make the Milwaukees jump. Not exactly practical for me, but for some people the difference between 25 feet and 35 feet could be big.


----------



## LithOTA

Quote:

Originally Posted by *joeydrunk* 
Herr it is. Also I live close to the Canadian border and that's where a lot of the strong channels come from. I was told their still using analog up their for another 6 months and then switching over to digital. I would like to be able to pick those up as well.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8d17e333ac492c
I hope you have a west-facing window, and the VHFs are going to be very tough in an apartment. You might need to use a small outdoor antenna indoors.


----------



## Dave Loudin

Lith, you realize that if you click on a station in the table, you see the terrain profile of the path?


----------



## Konrad2

Wondering why tvfool now limits antenna height to 500 feet?

It allowed higher back in December.


No, I'm not planning to build an ultra high tower. Just

curious how high it would have to be to get LOS. Also

wondering what sort of signal one of our local relay

stations is getting.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Herr it is. Also I live close to the Canadian border and that's where a lot of the strong channels come from. I was told their still using analog up their for another 6 months and then switching over to digital. I would like to be able to pick those up as well.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8d17e333ac492c



Yes, it would be nice if you have a window pointed west or northwest.

I would say get the basic NON-amplified rabbit ears with uhf loop at Radio Shack for about $12. Inside of an apartment, its all about location, location, location. So move it around to find the hot spots. The same antenna will work for digital too.


----------



## joeydrunk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it would be nice if you have a window pointed west or northwest.
> 
> I would say get the basic NON-amplified rabbit ears with uhf loop at Radio Shack for about $12. Inside of an apartment, its all about location, location, location. So move it around to find the hot spots. The same antenna will work for digital too.



I have 2 Windows in my 2nd story apartment. My main livingroom window next to my tv faces east and my bedroom window faces west.


What about amplified indoor or smart antennas? Also I have a Motorola signal booster broadband drop amp. Would that help?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> What about amplified indoor or smart antennas? Also I have a Motorola signal booster broadband drop amp. Would that help?



In order: Maybe, not available, and probably not.


You will have to decide which stations are important to you and how much you want to spend.


An HDTVi or HDTVa is likely your best option if you want to include the analog VHFs from Victoria. The Vancouver digitals are all UHF but there are still several analog services remaining. You'll have to weigh both the desirability of the analog reception along with their remaining lifespan, whatever that happens to be.


The Bellingham translators are all UHF. Plus, you get a shopping channel!


----------



## okillagorilla

Great thread...I didn't go through all of the information, but what I did read seemed to help. Like many others I finally got fed up with paying 85 bucks a month to only watch 2 channels on cable.


Unfortunately for me, I'm located in Manhattan in NYC and I'm north of the Empire State Building. Double unfortunate for me is that my apartment faces north as well. I did the TV fool scan and I'd have to face my directional antenna through my 4th floor apartment (out of 7 floors, including ground floor), and through probably another 1,000 buildings in the process


So I bought the Terk HDTVa as well as the RCA ANT1251 to compare it with. With the Terk, I couldn't get any of the major stations, only the spanish language stations. I pointed in in the direction of the empire state, pointed it out the window, tried everything and couldn't pick up any signals. The RCA however got me every channel but NBC, which is weird because channels like ABC, CBS and Fox seem to be coming off of the same towner. As long as I place it on my window and pull the antennas out to maximum length, it seems to work. Not ideal, but at least I get something.


At this point I'm convinced that there isn't much else I can do given my location, but I will keep searching to see if I can find a solution. Directional antennas seem to be useless for me, so unless i can find a better version of the RCA, I'm not sure what else i can do. I'm sure if I had a clear shot, then the Terk would have worked, but there are just too many buildings between me and the antennas for that to work. Anyone else in a similar situation that might have some advice?


----------



## arxaw

okillagorilla,

Your situation is not uncommon. The antenna may just be sitting in a dead or interference-prone spot for the frequency NBC is broadcasting on. Carefully place the antenna on empty boxes or other items to raise it higher, a foot or so at a time. Or, lowering it or moving left or right just a little at a time, may help you find a hot spot for NBC, plus your other channels. Use the TV's signal meter to find the best spot. If the antenna is near any electronics, that may be a source of interference. Even the TV can emit interference that may only interfere with certain channels. Amplifiers often just amplify noise and may not help. You might try a passive (unamp'd) antenna. In many situations where there is lots of interference, the budget Radio Shack #15-1874 indoor antenna often works better indoors than some amplified antennas.


.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Amplifiers often just amplify noise and may not help. You might try a passive (unamp'd) antenna. In many situations where there is lots of interference, the budget Radio Shack #15-1874 indoor antenna often works better indoors than some amplified antennas.



Definately. In NYC, you have some strong signals bouncing around and the cheapie amps will cause overloading and noise.


----------



## okillagorilla




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/20174019
> 
> 
> okillagorilla,
> 
> Your situation is not uncommon. The antenna may just be sitting in a dead or interference-prone spot for the frequency NBC is broadcasting on. Carefully place the antenna on empty boxes or other items to raise it higher, a foot or so at a time. Or, lowering it or moving left or right just a little at a time, may help you find a hot spot for NBC, plus your other channels. Use the TV's signal meter to find the best spot. If the antenna is near any electronics, that may be a source of interference. Even the TV can emit interference that may only interfere with certain channels. Amplifiers often just amplify noise and may not help. You might try a passive (unamp'd) antenna. In many situations where there is lots of interference, the budget Radio Shack #15-1874 indoor antenna often works better indoors than some amplified antennas.
> 
> 
> .



Thanks arxaw for the tips, you were right about just needing the passive antenna. I went to radio shack and got the 1874 antenna it works much better than my RCA antenna at 1/3rd the price. Later this evening I will try and really work to get NBC by moving the antenna around, but I'm already excited about the Radio Shack antenna working, all of the channels I get are crystal clear (CBS wasn't as strong with the RCA antenna as it is now), and I was able to get about 3-4 more channels than before.


The 1874 is much smaller footprint and is easily movable as well. Unfortunately my HD set, the Sony KDL 40V4100 doesn't seem to have a signal meter, so I'll have to do some trial and error to find the best spot. Thanks all for your help.


edit: Nevermind, I found the signal meter under signal diagnostics. I will give this a go tonight to see how it works


----------



## arxaw

Glad the RS antenna worked better for you.


My sony has the signal diagnostics buried in "Customer Support" menu. I find that a stupid place to put it - it should be in the Channel menu, IMO. Anyway, not sure about yours, but try looking in the Customer Support menu, if available.


The coax on the RS antenna is heavy duty, but quite short. To extend it for moving the antenna in search of a hot spot, connect a longer coax with a barrel splice , also available at RS or elsewhere. With a little effort, you may find a spot where you can get all your channels without interference.


Also, if available in your channel menu, use the "Add Digital Channels" option instead of AutoProgram, after you move the antenna around. That option will add newly found channels to the existing channel list, without erasing it.


----------



## joeydrunk

What's the best way to go about programming you channel line up on your tv with an antenna.


If you use auto program it might not pick up some of the channels you could get by moving the antenna around.


So would the best way be to just manually add every possible channel you might get get in you area and then try each channel one by one, move the antenna around to see if you can get a signal in worth watching and then either keep it or erase it and move to the next?


----------



## arxaw

Unfortunately, the FCC did not standardize channel setup menus for DTVs.


Some TVs only have auto-program or auto-setup, which works great for an initial scan. But if one requires moving the antenna to get all of their available channels, this just won't work. Some TVs have an "Add Digital Channels" option that will look for channels the previous scan did not find, and add them to the list. Others have a manual channel option, *but one must know the actual channel the station is broadcasting on*. And since the FCC decided to keep most channel IDs different from the actual RF channel, this feature is more or less useless to most average TV viewers, who don't know about physical/virtual channel mapping.










If your TV has manual add, and if you know the actual physical broadcast channel, you can enter channels manually. If your TV has "Add digital channels" option, that is usually the easiest way to find more channels after adjusting the antenna.


----------



## okillagorilla

arxaw, your tips have been spot on. After spending a good two hours this morning I was finally able to find a good spot for all of the channels in my area. All of the big networks are coming in clear without interference, no matter who's walking around or moving. My average levels for most of my channels are in the 30-35 range with NBC surprisingly now being the strongest out of all of them.


I was able to do the Add Digital Channels test and add to my lineup as I went until I found a good spot which ended up pretty high up on a bookshelf. I will now buy a shorter cable to connect to it and get the best signal. I think my current cable being 50ft long is a little too big and could be degrading the signal a little.


I really really really appreciate your help, everything you've suggested has worked like a charm










> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/20176002
> 
> 
> Glad the RS antenna worked better for you.
> 
> 
> My sony has the signal diagnostics buried in "Customer Support" menu. I find that a stupid place to put it - it should be in the Channel menu, IMO. Anyway, not sure about yours, but try looking in the Customer Support menu, if available.
> 
> 
> The coax on the RS antenna is heavy duty, but quite short. To extend it for moving the antenna in search of a hot spot, connect a longer coax with a barrel splice , also available at RS or elsewhere. With a little effort, you may find a spot where you can get all your channels without interference.
> 
> 
> Also, if available in your channel menu, use the "Add Digital Channels" option instead of AutoProgram, after you move the antenna around. That option will add newly found channels to the existing channel list, without erasing it.


----------



## arxaw

Good to hear you solved your reception problems, and thanks for posting back with your results.

Prediction of indoor reception is impossible, even for nearby channels, but usually with enough patience, one can find a hot spot. Hopefully, yours will hold 24/7, as reception conditions & interference sometimes vary throughout the day.


You are correct about the excess cable. It does attenuate signals, and _usually_, shorter is better. If by chance you happen to lose certain channels after shortening the cable, it's possible that those channels were too strong to begin with and the extra cable was attenuating it. Hopefully, you won't have that problem and signals will improve.


On your diagnostics menu, does your Sony have a SNR reading? If so, as long each channel shows somewhere above 15-16db, regardless of the time of day & weather, that should be enough to maintain a lock on weaker channels.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/20177484
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, the FCC did not standardize channel setup menus for DTVs.
> 
> 
> Some TVs only have auto-program or auto-setup, which works great for an initial scan. But if one requires moving the antenna to get all of their available channels, this just won't work. Some TVs have an "Add Digital Channels" option that will look for channels the previous scan did not find, and add them to the list. Others have a manual channel option, *but one must know the actual channel the station is broadcasting on*. And since the FCC decided to keep most channel IDs different from the actual RF channel, this feature is more or less useless to most average TV viewers, who don't know about physical/virtual channel mapping.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If your TV has manual add, and if you know the actual physical broadcast channel, you can enter channels manually. If your TV has "Add digital channels" option, that is usually the easiest way to find more channels after adjusting the antenna.



The FCC doesn't have the AUTHORITY to say how a particular feature is implemented in HDTVs,

nor would anyone WANT them to dictate how manufacture's build their software.

And BTW, it was the BROADCASTERS who lobbied for keeping the digital channel numbers the

same as their analog #'s. What a nearsighted idea that turned out to be.....


There are several consortiums of companies that work on various implementation STANDARDS,

including ATSC, CEA and IEEE. But they also try to encourage entrepreneurial FREEDOM.

[Isn't that what everyone is screaming for????]

But they concentrate on defining what is transmitted and very rarely mention the user interaction.

[This is a common shortcoming in many draft software specifications I've been involved with!!!]


Which is why there isn't a STANDARD way to scan/rescan for channels...and why there STILL

isn't a STANDARD way to setup a secure WiFi Connection....although both are sorely needed....


Revising one of the many CEA (Consumer Electronics Association) STANDARDS is encouraged:
http://www.ce.org/Standards/1401.asp 
http://www.ce.org/Standards/listings.asp 

Unfortunately, downloading each Standard costs as much as $100, so the public isn't exactly

encouraged to know & "help" with suggestions.


Same situation for most IEEE draft and final Standards.


On the other hand, Approved (not draft) ATSC standards are free to the public:
www.atsc.org


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dave Loudin* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Lith, you realize that if you click on a station in the table, you see the terrain profile of the path?



Yes, but it only gives you a good impression of the curvature of the earth and the shadow effect of the edges. I like using Google Earth, you draw a path from the tower to the antenna, then save the path. It has a profile view that allows you to identify the actual hill or ridge that is getting in the way. I realize that it some parts of the country, those landforms are obvious, but here in Flatland they are very subtle.


----------



## Konrad2

It seems that the cell and sat providers are once again wanting

to steal even more spectrum from TV broadcasts. Even though they

are not using and are not planning on using the spectrum they

already have. For example, Dish bought spectrum and is just hoarding

it. If cell phone spectrum is too crowded, make the cells smaller.

http://www.cio.com.au/article/380294...rum_hoarding_/ 


I get the feeling that they are trying to kill broadcast TV.

They want to sell you TV shows and see broadcast TV as competition.


I keep seeing more broadcast TV stations, not less. Our TV stations

could use more spectrum (allowing more subchannels and/or fewer compression

artifacts), not less.


Broadcasting a TV show to millions is a far more efficient use of

spectrum than sending it to each user individually. And it is the

best way to distribute essential information quickly in a crisis.

The Japanese public are currently glued to their TVs.


----------



## rabbit73

*Konrad2*:


Your comments are interesting but I think they would get more attention on this thread:
*AVS Official Topic - The FCC & Broadcast Spectrum*
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1216722


----------



## joeydrunk

Thanks all for everybody's knowelwgabke input, it going to help me a lot in my hunt.


----------



## deedubbadoo

Hello everyone! I'm trying to help my father in law, who wants to get rid of his cable, and just use an antenna for networks. The only stipulation is, he wants the antenna to be inside the attic, (which is a huge space). I'm wondering if anyone could suggest an antenna that may work for him. I went to the TV Fool site, and punched in his address, but I can't make any sense about what it's telling me:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8d177837e598e3 


Any help regarding antenna/setup would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance,


-Dom


----------



## arxaw

What is his roof made of?

Does he have vinyl siding with foil insulation barrier behind it or stucco walls?


----------



## deedubbadoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/20190050
> 
> 
> What is his roof made of?
> 
> Does he have vinyl siding with foil insulation barrier behind it or stucco walls?



I will have to double check with him.


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deedubbadoo* /forum/post/20189909
> 
> 
> ... The only stipulation is, he wants the antenna to be inside the attic...



Then let's hope he's ready to settle for CW, ThisTV, Ion, Qubo, Ion Life and Trinity's five Christian channels. Based on that TVFool report, that's about all he can expect to capture consistently on an attic-mounted antenna. All other signals are too weak for an indoor antenna to provide the viewing reliability he's used to, regardless of either building composition or antenna gain.


Might I suggest a chimney mount? Most use straps cinched around the chimney rather than screws driven into the masonry, like this:











As for an antenna, the FiL will need a big one to ensure signal reliability, even outdoors. The best bang for his buck would be the Winegard HD-7696 or the AntennaCraft HBU44, in that order. If there's just one set requiring fewer than 50 feet of cable from antenna to TV, an antenna pre-amplifier shouldn't be necessary when RG6 coaxial cable is used for the downlead. More sets and/or a longer cable mean a high-input amp like Winegard's HDP-269 is advisable. The mast and mount will need proper grounding; fortunately, the components for doing so are relatively inexpensive.


----------



## A J




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deedubbadoo* /forum/post/20189909
> 
> 
> Hello everyone! I'm trying to help my father in law, who wants to get rid of his cable, and just use an antenna for networks. The only stipulation is, he wants the antenna to be inside the attic, (which is a huge space). I'm wondering if anyone could suggest an antenna that may work for him.-Dom



If you scroll back to my post #11846 about 3 pages back, you can see what I did in my attic (and the link to the antenna I bought and my TVFool) with excellent results on all my local stations up to 37 miles away.


Every attic is different, but if you buy an antenna which can easily be returned for refund, you can experiment with little to lose.


AJ


----------



## sleepykidX

Hi im sorry if this is the wrong thread to place this question, but I was wondering was there a way to combine vhf/uhf antenna and a cable cord together? Currently the set up is an

a-b switch setup and this is quite annoying, is there anyway around this?


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sleepykidX* /forum/post/20192770
> 
> 
> Hi im sorry if this is the wrong thread to place this question, but I was wondering was there a way to combine vhf/uhf antenna and a cable cord together? Currently the set up is an
> 
> a-b switch setup and this is quite annoying, is there anyway around this?



Sure. You're looking for a vhf/uhf combiner (UVSJ). There are lots of them. The problem is, will combining the antennas improve your reception? You can check by buying one of the combiners. I'd suggest you look at reception from each of the antennas you have via the a-b switch first. Then, add the 2 antennas together with the combiner. If reception is still acceptable after adding the combiner, you're in good shape.


----------



## The Hound

Glad you figured out what he was asking.

I thought he only had a singal F connector on the back and wanted to run cable and an antenna through it.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Whoa! You CANNOT indiscriminately combine OTA and the signals from a cable TV system onto the same cable at the same time, especially trying to do it with a UVSJ!


----------



## A J




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sleepykidX* /forum/post/20192770
> 
> 
> I was wondering was there a way to combine vhf/uhf antenna and a cable cord together? Currently the set up is an
> 
> a-b switch setup and this is quite annoying, is there anyway around this?



The cable company's signal can't be mixed with the signal from an antenna. Bad things will happen. An A/B switch is the best way to handle this, but a manual switch is annoying when you have to get off the sofa to change it.


A remote controlled A/B switch makes life easier. The example below comes with a simple remote. If you use a universal remote for your TV you could add the A/B if the universal has a learning feature.

http://www.amazon.com/Remote-Control...882336&sr=8-13 


AJ


----------



## deedubbadoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/20191056
> 
> 
> Then let's hope he's ready to settle for CW, ThisTV, Ion, Qubo, Ion Life and Trinity's five Christian channels. Based on that TVFool report, that's about all he can expect to capture consistently on an attic-mounted antenna. All other signals are too weak for an indoor antenna to provide the viewing reliability he's used to, regardless of either building composition or antenna gain.
> 
> 
> Might I suggest a chimney mount? Most use straps cinched around the chimney rather than screws driven into the masonry, like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for an antenna, the FiL will need a big one to ensure signal reliability, even outdoors. The best bang for his buck would be the Winegard HD-7696 or the AntennaCraft HBU44, in that order. If there's just one set requiring fewer than 50 feet of cable from antenna to TV, an antenna pre-amplifier shouldn't be necessary when RG6 coaxial cable is used for the downlead. More sets and/or a longer cable mean a high-input amp like Winegard's HDP-269 is advisable. The mast and mount will need proper grounding; fortunately, the components for doing so are relatively inexpensive.



Thanks for all of the replies everyone. I'm going to let him know that he will most likely have to go with an outdoor antenna. Also since he wants to use the signal for multiple TVs, he would have to have an amplifier as well. Might give the antenna that AJ mentioned a try to see if would work, but I'm not getting my hopes up. Mostly, he just wants to watch Fox59, and use Netflix through his Wii for everything else.


----------



## arxaw

deedubbadoo,

The antennas Don_M suggested are good, as is the suggested 269 preamp for long coax runs or connecting multiple TVs. But I would certainly not dismiss the attic location until it is tried. Channels in "yellow" on TVFool are often easily received in attics under a conventional asphalt roof. You can temporarily place the antenna on large cardboard boxes and run a temp. coax to it in the attic, to see what you can receive. You might be pleased at the results. If so, permanently mount the antenna from a pole or pipe hanging from the roof rafters. Grounding is not needed in an attic.


If mounting outdoors to a chimney, make sure it is not one that is being used, to avoid accelerated corrosion of the antenna.


----------



## Sammer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don_M* /forum/post/20191056
> 
> 
> Then let's hope he's ready to settle for CW, ThisTV, Ion, Qubo, Ion Life and Trinity's five Christian channels.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deedubbadoo* /forum/post/20193464
> 
> 
> Thanks for all of the replies everyone. I'm going to let him know that he will most likely have to go with an outdoor antenna. Also since he wants to use the signal for multiple TVs, he would have to have an amplifier as well. Might give the antenna that AJ mentioned a try to see if would work, but I'm not getting my hopes up. Mostly, he just wants to watch Fox59, and use Netflix through his Wii for everything else.



I was going to say that there is also ABC and CBS stations that depending on the attic could be receivable with a high gain attic antenna but they are in a different direction than the stations Don-M mentioned. Unfortunately Fox59 is probably too weak for an attic antenna. If you aim an outdoor antenna for best reception of the stations about thirty miles away, the closer CW, ION, and TBN stations may be strong enough to be received off the side of an outdoor antenna. If there are any FM radio stations in the area you may need to trap out the FM band especially if using an amplifier.


----------



## deedubbadoo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sammer* /forum/post/20194471
> 
> 
> I was going to say that there is also ABC and CBS stations that depending on the attic could be receivable with a high gain attic antenna but they are in a different direction than the stations Don-M mentioned. Unfortunately Fox59 is probably too weak for an attic antenna. If you aim an outdoor antenna for best reception of the stations about thirty miles away, the closer CW, ION, and TBN stations may be strong enough to be received off the side of an outdoor antenna. If there are any FM radio stations in the area you may need to trap out the FM band especially if using an amplifier.



Thanks again for the replies, I spoke with the FiL and he said that the upper part of the house is "Georgia Pacific man made wood," no vinyl siding. The rest is brick. I will run the options by him and see what he thinks.


----------



## mikepier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A J* /forum/post/20193324
> 
> 
> The cable company's signal can't be mixed with the signal from an antenna. Bad things will happen. An A/B switch is the best way to handle this, but a manual switch is annoying when you have to get off the sofa to change it.
> 
> 
> A remote controlled A/B switch makes life easier. The example below comes with a simple remote. If you use a universal remote for your TV you could add the A/B if the universal has a learning feature.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Remote-Control...882336&sr=8-13
> 
> 
> AJ



Its ashamed most TV's today only have 1ANT input on the back of the TV.


My 2006 Mits 57" DLP has 2 Ant inputs that I can switch via the TV remote


----------



## ProjectSHO89

My daughter and son-in-law have a similar vintage Sony with separate inputs. I wonder if that was just a stop-gap measure until they could get an integrated tuner.


Does anyone know if any current sets have separate inputs for cable and antenna?


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/20205016
> 
> 
> My daughter and son-in-law have a similar vintage Sony with separate inputs. I wonder if that was just a stop-gap measure until they could get an integrated tuner.
> 
> 
> Does anyone know if any current sets have separate inputs for cable and antenna?



I recently bought a new Sony 32 inch LCD for the bedroom and it has only one antenna input. I have a TiVo on it however and feed it throught the HDMI port. All the TiVo's I have (3) have antenna and cable input.


----------



## joeydrunk

Are there any indoor antennas that connect to the tv via hdmi, like newer style cable box/dvr's?


----------



## jtbell

Such a device would be better described as a "TV tuner with built-in antenna." I've never heard of such a thing, except maybe USB TV tuners for computers, with tiny antennas attached.


----------



## dvansowhat

The 3 year old 52in. Samsung I have has two inputs. One for cable and one for air. My Sat. connection is by HDMI to an AVR to tv. I switch to ant. with tv remote for some OTA programs.


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *joeydrunk* /forum/post/20206127
> 
> 
> Are there any indoor antennas that connect to the tv via hdmi, like newer style cable box/dvr's?



Short answer - no. It doesn't work that way.


We considered a combination converter/antenna a while back, but decided against it.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> We considered a combination converter/antenna a while back, but decided against it.



Well, the converter box would serve as a stable base for an indoor antenna. But that would be a pricey base, heh.


----------



## joeydrunk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADTech* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Short answer - no. It doesn't work that way.
> 
> 
> We considered a combination converter/antenna a while back, but decided against it.



Why can a tv receive a cable tv signal,that for years only hooked to the tv thru coaxial, and now you can receive the signal thru hdmi, but not an antenna tv signal thru hdmi?


----------



## arxaw

This DVR for OTA antenna reception connects to the TV via HDMI:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Channel-Ma...D-DVR/13968952


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *joeydrunk* /forum/post/20212132
> 
> 
> Why can a tv receive a cable tv signal,that for years only hooked to the tv thru coaxial, and now you can receive the signal thru hdmi, but not an antenna tv signal thru hdmi?



You're not "receiving it through hdmi", your receiving it via a STB that interfaces to the TV via HDMI.


You can purchase an ATSC tuner such as the ZAT-502HD or the CM7000 or the Tivo boxes that interfaces to the TV via an HDMI cable, but you still need to connect the antenna to the tuner via a coaxial cable.


----------



## Jeddi_Pimp

Sorry for being off topic but I have been reading on the site and web for a while and am still lost. I want to install a antenna on a 50ft tower, but don't have a clue of the best antenna to try for my situation. About 90ft of coax to get to the tv's. Will be split with a 4 way. No need for FM. No mountains around, mostly flat with alot of trees. No buildings or tall structures around (in the country). I would really like to pick up channel 8(CBS). Here is the reception link, any price under $300 would be fine.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8d174d24b0d526


----------



## arxaw

Your TVFool report shows that CBS affiliate (WKBT, ch 8) is very weak. Your TVfool report also shows you entered 40 feet as the antenna height, but you stated that your tower is 50'. If it really is 50', that can make a difference in borderline distant reception, and will affect TVFool results.


So, re-do your TVFool, using 50' instead of 40'. Also, if you're in a rural area, use TVFool's *maps tool*, for greater accuracy. Enter your address. Then, drag the red map marker directly over your house, using the satellite view. Make sure the antenna height below the map is correct, then click "Make Radar Plot" above the map. Post a link to the new results back here.


----------



## Jeddi_Pimp

Thanks for the reply, here's the new link.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8d170289731763


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jeddi_Pimp* /forum/post/20228130
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply, here's the new link.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8d170289731763



After looking at this TV Fool report, the answer is...the biggest one you can find! You must be way up in the North Woods dere, eh?

WKBT is the tough one. It looks like the 10 foot increase from 40 to 50 helped that station quite a bit...maybe you should try 60?

I would use a Winegard 1713 or Antennacraft Y-7-13 for WKBT, and it will also grab WEAU no problem. It might get WSAW and WAOW with a preamp and good cabling. The UHFs are pretty strong, so most UHF antennas will get those easy. The stations below WAOW are gonna be next to impossible for regular viewing.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> About 90ft of coax to get to the tv's. Will be split with a 4 way. No need for FM. No mountains around, mostly flat with alot of trees. No buildings or tall structures around (in the country). I would really like to pick up channel 8(CBS).



Whew, you have a really tricky situation there, very easy to overload if youre not careful.


I would try a channel cut yagi for channel 8 with a Winegard HDP269 preamp. Even with the channel 8 cut yagi, you should be able to get those stations with a NM of 47 and above. ( I take it that channels 45 and 18 may be of no interest to you. )


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/20230288
> 
> 
> After looking at this TV Fool report, the answer is...the biggest one you can find! You must be way up in the North Woods dere, eh?
> 
> WKBT is the tough one. It looks like the 10 foot increase from 40 to 50 helped that station quite a bit...maybe you should try 60?
> 
> I would use a Winegard 1713 or Antennacraft Y-7-13 for WKBT, and it will also grab WEAU no problem. It might get WSAW and WAOW with a preamp and good cabling. The UHFs are pretty strong, so most UHF antennas will get those easy. The stations below WAOW are gonna be next to impossible for regular viewing.



Hi,


North Woods for sure, but it has been ~ 50 years since I have been in that area.


I just want to add that WEAU may be a problem for up to a year, or then it might be better right now.

*Their 2000' tower fell!*
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post20192713 


SHF


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/20230348
> 
> 
> Whew, you have a really tricky situation there, very easy to overload if youre not careful.
> 
> 
> I would try a channel cut yagi for channel 8 with a Winegard HDP269 preamp. Even with the channel 8 cut yagi, you should be able to get those stations with a NM of 47 and above. (I take it that channels 45 and 18 may be of no interest to you.)



What 300ohm suggest +1. Or if you cannot find a "cut-to-channel 8" antenna, perhaps one of the antennas LithOTA suggested, plus the HDP269 preamp.


----------



## Jeddi_Pimp

Thanks for the suggestions, I will look into them. Gets me in the right direction. And da ya way up in da north woods here.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jeddi_Pimp* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions, I will look into them. Gets me in the right direction. And da ya way up in da north woods here.



It's the most beautiful country in the world up there. My aunt and my uncle (siblings) both had supper clubs and lodges up there when I was growing up.


----------



## Jeddi_Pimp

LithOTA, I will try the Winegard 1713. What UHF antenna would you recommend? And can I just put them together with a backwords spliter? Try a pre amp right away or try it without first?


And yes it is beautiful country up here, we love it.

Thanks


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jeddi_Pimp* /forum/post/20235070
> 
> 
> LithOTA, I will try the Winegard 1713. What UHF antenna would you recommend? And can I just put them together with a backwords spliter? Try a pre amp right away or try it without first?
> 
> 
> And yes it is beautiful country up here, we love it.
> 
> Thanks



Your UHFs are a lot stronger, so most of them will work for you. I have a Winegard 9022 paired with my 1713.

As for combining, there are two methods: A UVSJ (UHF-VHF signal joiner) is a splitter/combiner that is designed to merge the two bands. They only cost a few bucks at Solid Signal or Summit Source. The other way is that some preamps (like the vaunted Channel Master 7777) have separate inputs for each.

As for preamps, you have at least 50 feet of cable running down the tower, plus whatever length it is from the base of the tower into the house to the tuner. That's enough to attenuate several dBs of signal, so a mast-mounted preamp will preserve as much as possible.


----------



## arxaw

Your UHF signals are fairly strong. As 300ohm suggested, you may want to first try using just the VHF antenna + HDP269 preamp, aimed South. It may be all you need to get all of your VHF & UHF channels of interest.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/20235784
> 
> 
> Your UHF signals are fairly strong. As 300ohm suggested, you may want to first try using just the VHF antenna + HDP269 preamp, aimed South. It may be all you need to get all of your VHF & UHF channels of interest.



The Winegard 9095P has a port on it for the VHF antenna to plug in to. Not sure how many others have that. I used that for my 1713 FYI.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/20235784
> 
> 
> Your UHF signals are fairly strong. As 300ohm suggested, you may want to first try using just the VHF antenna + HDP269 preamp, aimed South. It may be all you need to get all of your VHF & UHF channels of interest.



That's a good point...those UHFs are so strong, a VHF antenna might grab them fine. If multiple trips up and down the tower aren't too difficult, it might be best to give it a shot.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Jeddi_Pimp* /forum/post/20227889
> 
> 
> Sorry for being off topic but I have been reading on the site and web for a while and am still lost. I want to install a antenna on a 50ft tower, but don't have a clue of the best antenna to try for my situation. About 90ft of coax to get to the tv's. Will be split with a 4 way. No need for FM. No mountains around, mostly flat with alot of trees. No buildings or tall structures around (in the country). I would really like to pick up channel 8(CBS). Here is the reception link, any price under $300 would be fine.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8d174d24b0d526



If you are going to the work to put up a 50 foot tower, you should mount a rotator and the best antenna package you can get IMO. This package works well for me on the end of my two story house. I have modified the 1713 mount to avoid bird droppings on my patio. I also have a Winegard AP 8275 preamp. I went with separate antennas because the UHF was already up. The 9095P has an input for the VHF antenna and the preamp was already connected so it was an easy setup.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I have modified the 1713 mount to avoid bird droppings on my patio.



Cool. A rubber snake around the mast or a free hanging plastic owl may help too.


----------



## AVS66




> Quote:
> I have modified the 1713 mount to avoid bird droppings on my patio.





> Quote:
> Cool. A rubber snake around the mast or a free hanging plastic owl may help too.



Not really









http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-me...e=UTF8&index=2


----------



## 300ohm

Yeah, you have to move the owl occasionally or let in swing in the breeze, heh.


----------



## Rammitinski

Man, I'd be out there having target practice everyday with a BB gun.


----------



## LithOTA

I've tried combining antennas that were pointed in different directions before, and not had much luck. The stronger antenna would always dominate, and there would be nothing from the weaker one.

This weekend I was messing around and tried it again- only this time, both antennas are running on Radio Shack preamps with gain control knobs. By working the knobs up and down while checking various stations, I was able to find a balance where I could get all of the channels from both antennas at a moderate signal level- SNR about 20. I even was able to connect together 3 antenna systems (aimed at three different cities) and use the knobs to balance them. I am combining with a four-way splitter (with the unused port terminated), placed AFTER the preamp power injectors.

Some of the weaker stations from each market won't play ball, but I am able to surf about 75 subchannels without hitting the AB switch. One station, which has an analog co-channel, won't come in when first tuned. After about 5-7 seconds, it starts to come in at signal level 60 (the cliff on that tuner), then it slowly climbs up to about 72 and levels off. It's like the tuner is sorting through the signals, and it takes it a while to figure out what's what.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8d179598d5fa2b 


So far, it's been a few days and the system seems to be holding. If this works, I will set up a distribution amp and send these signals upstairs to the kids' TVs, which are OTA only, doubling thier channel count.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AVS66* /forum/post/20271371
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-me...e=UTF8&index=2



Fortunately I'm far enough from the coast that I don't have to worry about seagulls. Occasionally a starling perches on my YA-1713, but not often enough to be a problem.


----------



## arxaw

We get a few hummingbirds on the 4228's bow ties.


----------



## willscary




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/20272648
> 
> 
> I've tried combining antennas that were pointed in different directions before, and not had much luck. The stronger antenna would always dominate, and there would be nothing from the weaker one.
> 
> This weekend I was messing around and tried it again- only this time, both antennas are running on Radio Shack preamps with gain control knobs. By working the knobs up and down while checking various stations, I was able to find a balance where I could get all of the channels from both antennas at a moderate signal level- SNR about 20. I even was able to connect together 3 antenna systems (aimed at three different cities) and use the knobs to balance them. I am combining with a four-way splitter (with the unused port terminated), placed AFTER the preamp power injectors.
> 
> Some of the weaker stations from each market won't play ball, but I am able to surf about 75 subchannels without hitting the AB switch. One station, which has an analog co-channel, won't come in when first tuned. After about 5-7 seconds, it starts to come in at signal level 60 (the cliff on that tuner), then it slowly climbs up to about 72 and levels off. It's like the tuner is sorting through the signals, and it takes it a while to figure out what's what.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8d179598d5fa2b
> 
> 
> So far, it's been a few days and the system seems to be holding. If this works, I will set up a distribution amp and send these signals upstairs to the kids' TVs, which are OTA only, doubling thier channel count.














This photo shows 4 exterior antennas all pointed in different directions. Two are VHF-hi and two are UHF. There are also a pair of UHF antennas in my attic that are added to this array.


As long as the stations in different directions are not adjacent to eachother, Jointennas will allow you to combine these antennas so a rotor is not needed.


I have 4 TVs, and each one receives all channels from these 6 antennas at all times...no rotor or A/B switches needed.


I hope this helps.


----------



## LithOTA




willscary;20275365
[B said:


> As long as the stations in different directions are not adjacent to eachother[/b], Jointennas will allow you to combine these antennas so a rotor is not needed.
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Oh, yeah, they're adjacent. For 7-51, the only freeks that aren't used around here are 9, 11, 14, 15, & 24. Join-tennas or traps would kill me on adjacent channels.
> 
> I think one reason that I was able to get it to work was that the big, bad Chicagos, with NMs in the 30's & 40's, are recieved using poorly-built DIY antennas (a G-H and a 5-el VHF-hi Yagi), in the attic, with a $20 Radio Shack preamp, and a long cable run. All of that attenuation cuts the Chicagos down to a level more comparable with the Milwaukees, which run NMs around and below zero. By mixing a strong stations/weak system city with a weak stations/strong system city, they kinda even out.
> 
> I wish there was a Super-Join-Tenna, a box with three coax inputs and one coax output. For each channel 7-51, there's a 3-position switch where you can choose which input should be passed through. But I don't think there is any way to do this without messing up adjacent channels.


----------



## willscary




LithOTA said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *willscary;20275365
> 
> 
> [B* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> As long as the stations in different directions are not adjacent to eachother[/b], Jointennas will allow you to combine these antennas so a rotor is not needed.
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Oh, yeah, they're adjacent. For 7-51, the only freeks that aren't used around here are 9, 11, 14, 15, & 24. Join-tennas or traps would kill me on adjacent channels.
> 
> I think one reason that I was able to get it to work was that the big, bad Chicagos, with NMs in the 30's & 40's, are recieved using poorly-built DIY antennas (a G-H and a 5-el VHF-hi Yagi), in the attic, with a $20 Radio Shack preamp, and a long cable run. All of that attenuation cuts the Chicagos down to a level more comparable with the Milwaukees, which run NMs around and below zero. By mixing a strong stations/weak system city with a weak stations/strong system city, they kinda even out.
> 
> I wish there was a Super-Join-Tenna, a box with three coax inputs and one coax output. For each channel 7-51, there's a 3-position switch where you can choose which input should be passed through. But I don't think there is any way to do this without messing up adjacent channels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did look at your TVFool radar after my post and I did see your dillema. Really, if you pointed at Chicago, you could add a channel 10 jointenna for ...Rockford? Fox channel and a channel 16 jointenna for the independent channel 16 (plus corresponding antennas). Still, you would be quite limited. I am lucky that I get all of the channels in two DMAs because of the channel spread. If the FCCs consolidation plan occurs, I will most likely be screwed. I will not be happy if the few channels we have around here are forced together and I end up losing some of them.
> 
> 
> I quoted you in my response, but honestly, I was trying to let others know that it is not impossible to receive stations in different directions. Of course, I have VHF channels 7 and 9 in one direction and 11 in another, UHF channels 21, 23, 27, 39,41, 42 and 49 in one direction while 31 is in a different direction, 36 is in another direction and 16 is in yet another direction. All of these stations have several open channels between them, making Jointennas work wonderfully well.
Click to expand...


----------



## LithOTA




willscary said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/20276589
> 
> 
> 
> I did look at your TVFool radar after my post and I did see your dillema. Really, if you pointed at Chicago, you could add a channel 10 jointenna for ...Rockford? Fox channel and a channel 16 jointenna for the independent channel 16 (plus corresponding antennas). Still, you would be quite limited. I am lucky that I get all of the channels in two DMAs because of the channel spread. If the FCCs consolidation plan occurs, I will most likely be screwed. I will not be happy if the few channels we have around here are forced together and I end up losing some of them.
> 
> 
> I quoted you in my response, but honestly, I was trying to let others know that it is not impossible to receive stations in different directions. Of course, I have VHF channels 7 and 9 in one direction and 11 in another, UHF channels 21, 23, 27, 39,41, 42 and 49 in one direction while 31 is in a different direction, 36 is in another direction and 16 is in yet another direction. All of these stations have several open channels between them, making Jointennas work wonderfully well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I've heard of a guy who is using about a dozen Join-Tennas, but he has to in order to get "one each" of the major networks.
> 
> Really, I'm just being greedy. I could just settle for the #3 market, but I want the #38 market too, and the #136 market as a bonus. I just bought a Kitztech Preamp in order to try and get more of the #77 market. My wife finds it quite amusing.
> 
> Unless I can watch 5 "Family Guys" at the same time, I feel deprived.
Click to expand...


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/20277568
> 
> 
> Unless I can watch 5 "Family Guys" at the same time, I feel deprived.



For awhile, receiving multiple stations showing the same programming at different hours, or different episodes on different days meant something to me, too - but then I remembered what I had all those recording and playback devices for.


It was fun for awhile, but prioritization and practicality set in for me eventually.


----------



## Pete.

I have a friend in Peoria who would like to get more stations if possible.He is getting the first six stations from the top of the list with good reception. His antenna is mounted outside on the roof (single family home) using the a Philips MANT940 Indoor/Outdoor HDTV Antenna. We do not know what obstacle is causing the 2Edge. Thank you.


----------



## arxaw

With a decent antenna and preamp he could probably get channels down to and including WBUI on the report plus WILL-DT. Those are all in a South to Southeasterly direction from him. To get stations to the NW he would have to add a rotator.


"2-Edge" stations have multiple hills obstructing clear Line-Of-Sight (LOS) to the transmitter.


----------



## LithOTA




Pete. said:


> I have a friend in Peoria who would like to get more stations if possible.He is getting the first six stations from the top of the list with good reception. His antenna is mounted outside on the roof (single family home) using the a Philips MANT940 Indoor/Outdoor HDTV Antenna. We do not know what obstacle is causing the 2Edge. Thank you. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Looks like one edge is the curvature of the Earth, and the other is local (the tops of the Illinois River bluffs). The noise margins are still pretty good on Champaign and Quad City stations. The Peorias should come in no matter which way you're pointed.
> 
> You should be able to set up one antenna for QC and one for Champaign, with a remote A-B switch (Peoria will come in on either). The big decision will be what to do with WHBF and WILL, which are VHF. I would check the schedules and subchannels of those two to determine whether or not it is worth it to use a huge antenna and a pretty big antenna just for those two stations. If you can live without those, and WWTO, then a pair of 4-bays mounted back-to-back with the A-B switch should get you down to WSEC. If you want WHBF, you need a 108" wide antenna like the Winegard 7080 or 8200. For WILL and WWTO, you would need a 35" wide antenna like the Winegard 769 series or Antennacraft HBU series.


----------



## jtbell

If you click on a station's callsign in the original TV Fool web page that the report came from, you'll see an elevation profile of the terrain between the transmitter and your location. Comparison with Google Maps or a paper map should allow you to figure out where the obstruction is.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/20287023
> 
> 
> With a decent antenna and preamp he could probably get channels down to and including WBUI on the report plus WILL-DT.



The key is the HDP-269 preamp. Most other preamps, including the one in the Philips antenna, will overload.


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pete.* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a friend in Peoria who would like to get more stations if possible.He is getting the first six stations from the top of the list with good reception. His antenna is mounted outside on the roof (single family home) using the a Philips MANT940 Indoor/Outdoor HDTV Antenna. We do not know what obstacle is causing the 2Edge. Thank you.



Is his antenna really 50 feet off the ground?


----------



## Rammitinski




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *klandry7* /forum/post/20287740
> 
> 
> Is his antenna really 50 feet off the ground?



He could be on high ground, or attempting to to compensate for their underestimation.


----------



## Steve_Weggus

Stumbled across this yesterday. Claimed gain is 35db with its amplifier. It's UK so you have to get the correct transformer for the amp. For UK channels 31 -69. Its the Alpha Freeview Pro from Paragon Components.


I have no idea about cost or actual availability for the US market.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> For UK channels 31 -69



Typo ? Specs are for UK channels 21 - 69, (about 470 - 862 mhz)
http://www.paragoncomponents.com/cat...ct-63.aspx?c=3 

The quoted amplifier noise specs of 1 are exceedingly good.


The 1.2 meter (about 4 feet) diameter dish is a little too small to act as an effective parabola on the lower uhf channels, but will on the higher channels, especially above 51, which we no longer have.


The construction quality looks good, but I imagine its cost is going to be high getting it to the US.


----------



## 300ohm

Ennui,


You may be interested in another product they sell, antenna anti-pigeon spikes.









http://www.paragoncomponents.com/cat...273.aspx?c=130


----------



## Steve_Weggus

Was typo - Should have been Channels 21 - 69.


----------



## LithOTA

Looks a little like a Wade D-1338-BB Parabolic, same size, same functionality. Wade says theirs is good for a little over 17 dBi, without an amplifier.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Wade says theirs is good for a little over 17 dBi



Yeah, but that occurs at the old old channels 72 - 76, heh. At channel 14, it gets 13 dBi, which is worse than a PR-8800 that is a about a third of the square footage in size. The parabola effect doesnt really kick in until the parabola diameter is at least 5 or 6 wavelengths in diameter. Note the 4 dbi increase in gain on channel 14 when going from the 6ft PB-61-BB to 8ft PB-81-BB.

They really need a redesign of the 8 ft PB-81-BB driven element for the new uhf range of 14 to 51. As a plus, they could probably eliminate half the horizontal wires on the dish for less wind resistance and lower cost.
http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/uhfparabolic.pdf


----------



## LithOTA

Quote:

Originally Posted by *300ohm* 
Yeah, but that occurs at the old old channels 72 - 76, heh. At channel 14, it gets 13 dBi, which is worse than a PR-8800 that is a about a third of the square footage in size. The parabola effect doesnt really kick in until the parabola diameter is at least 5 or 6 wavelengths in diameter. Note the 4 dbi increase in gain on channel 14 when going from the 6ft PB-61-BB to 8ft PB-81-BB.

They really need a redesign of the 8 ft PB-81-BB driven element for the new uhf range of 14 to 51. As a plus, they could probably eliminate half the horizontal wires on the dish for less wind resistance and lower cost.
http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/uhfparabolic.pdf
So the claim of 35 dB gain on the Paragon is based on the amplifier, like a China special?


Maybe I could build one to get that pesky RF4 out of Davenport...it would only have to be...about 85 feet across?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> So the claim of 35 dB gain on the Paragon is based on the amplifier, like a China special?



Yep, but at least its a low noise amp instead of the high noise China special one.


An 85 ft diameter dish for channel 4 is about right, heh.


----------



## LithOTA

Well, I'll start building one then. I guess I should start shopping for a 43 foot tower to hang it on!


----------



## cyfairslam

Amazon has fantastic reviews for the Mohu indoor antenna.


They almost seem to be too good to be true.


I don't see any reviews anywhere else.


Does anyone have one? Have they been reviewed by this site and I can't find it?


Thanks


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cyfairslam* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Amazon has fantastic reviews for the Mohu indoor antenna.
> 
> 
> They almost seem to be too good to be true.
> 
> 
> I don't see any reviews anywhere else.
> 
> 
> Does anyone have one? Have they been reviewed by this site and I can't find it?
> 
> 
> Thanks



Its probably is made out of a thin wire embedded in a plastic sheet. The question is, what shape is the wire?

If it is just a loop, then I wouldn't expect much. It could also be a fractal design, which might work very well.

A third possibility is that the wire is shaped into a LPDA, meaning it should be oriented horizontally toward the tower.


----------



## Steve_Weggus

On the Digital Home.CA website there was some speculation as to the shape. Someone seemed to think that it was a basic rectangle with a 1 inch feedline.


It would be interesting to see what it does when combined with a good preamp.


----------



## Dave Loudin

Argh. Preamps do not fix the sins of an antenna that does not have enough gain.


----------



## kayo_michael

just ordered a mohu antenna after reading very little info available online. Found out about it through an ad on the sidebar of this site.


Cut the cord to cable last year. Never did OTA before so this is my first antenna, ever. Nothing to compare it to, but if I get decent PQ for the major (ABC, CBS, FOX) ch's I'll be happy.


My tv has a digital tuner so it shoud be just PnP right?


----------



## Don_M




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kayo_michael* /forum/post/20316584
> 
> 
> My tv has a digital tuner so it shoud be just PnP right?



Nope. Once the antenna is attached to the tuner input, you will need to scan for over-the-air (OTA) signals. To do this, go into the TV's setup menu and look for an input selection. The choice is usually between "Cable"/"Satellite" and "Antenna," "Air," "Broadcast" or "Terrestrial." Once you've selected OTA as the signal source, you should be able to select "Search for Channels" or the like on the same screen, and launch the scan from there.


Please be aware that reception conditions in much of Suffolk County can make use of an indoor antenna rather challenging. Depending on antenna placement and construction materials used in your home, you may need to perform the scan more than once to find the best antenna location that will capture the desired stations. The chances for reliable reception increase if you locate the antenna so that its broad surface faces the Empire State Building, preferably through a window.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kayo_michael* /forum/post/20316584
> 
> 
> just ordered a mohu antenna



An indoor antenna that size will probably not work well for VHF channels at your distance (35 miles) from the major transmitters which are on the Empire State Building.


I will be surprised if you can pick up WABC (ch 7), WPIX (ch 11) or WNET (ch 13) with that antenna.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/20318472
> 
> 
> An indoor antenna that size will probably not work well for VHF channels at your distance (35 miles) from the major transmitters which are on the Empire State Building.
> 
> 
> I will be surprised if you can pick up WABC (ch 7), WPIX (ch 11) or WNET (ch 13) with that antenna.



Terk HDTVa would probably be a better choice as rabbit ears are needed for VHF and the UHF element on this antenna is well designed also. And the included in line amp could help stabilize some problematic signals.


----------



## kayo_michael




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/20318472
> 
> 
> An indoor antenna that size will probably not work well for VHF channels at your distance (35 miles) from the major transmitters which are on the Empire State Building.
> 
> 
> I will be surprised if you can pick up WABC (ch 7), WPIX (ch 11) or WNET (ch 13) with that antenna.



All,

Thanks for the feedback.


I'll let you all know how many ch's I get, and the quality of the signal.

I plan to mount the antenna on the wall behind the TV, but I may raise it above the TV and cover it with art depending on reception.


It will be facing directly at The Empire State Bldg, but with 35 miles between us it will be interesting to see what ch's show up.


Stay tuned.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I'll let you all know how many ch's I get, and the quality of the signal.



Yeah, let us know. And if you got rabbit ears, compare.

With your NM in the 40's, you should get a fair amount of channels.


Channels, 7, 11, and 13 with NM in the low 30's, are certainly going to be iffy.



> Quote:
> Someone seemed to think that it was a basic rectangle with a 1 inch feedline.



Loveota modeled a modified rectangle of it, and its not bad for a low gain antenna. I think theres a bit more to it than just a plain rectangle, as its omni directional.


The Mohu Leaf looks to be a take off of their mudflap antenna, which looks like an interesting omni directional antenna for trucks. But with the mudflap antenna, I think theyre taking advantage of the ground effect.


----------



## kayo_michael




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/20321359
> 
> 
> Yeah, let us know. And if you got rabbit ears, compare.
> 
> With your NM in the 40's, you should get a fair amount of channels.
> 
> 
> Channels, 7, 11, and 13 with NM in the low 30's, are certainly going to be iffy.
> 
> 
> 
> Loveota modeled a modified rectangle of it, and its not bad for a low gain antenna. I think theres a bit more to it than just a plain rectangle, as its omni directional.
> 
> 
> The Mohu Leaf looks to be a take off of their mudflap antenna, which looks like an interesting omni directional antenna for trucks. But with the mudflap antenna, I think theyre taking advantage of the ground effect.



I got nada, zip, zero. no channels. I tried moving the antenna up, putting it on an exterior window, no ch's at all.


I hope I am doing something wrong. I have a Samsung PN50B650, using auto program scanning the "air" antenna for signals.


----------



## arxaw

It appears you're doing the scan correctly. Sounds like you got a crappy antenna. Try this RS budget antenna on a long coax. You can return it if it doesn't work.


----------



## 300ohm

Post your exact TVFool results. I just used the TVFool for Babylon, NY and you should almost be getting some channels with a paper clip, heh.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8d178d99538728


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kayo_michael* /forum/post/20333031
> 
> 
> I got nada, zip, zero. no channels. I tried moving the antenna up, putting it on an exterior window, no ch's at all.
> 
> 
> I hope I am doing something wrong. I have a Samsung PN50B650, using auto program scanning the "air" antenna for signals.



Hi,


You should be getting something, they are supplying antennas to the U.S. Military:










"Sandia National Labs Oro (Gold) Supplier Award 2004 for highly stringent defense related parts."

http://www.greenwavescientific.com/company.html 


Look at the "Mudflap VHF Antennas" on the product page, it looks like your antenna perhaps:

http://www.greenwavescientific.com/d...20Antennas.pdf 



> just ordered a mohu antenna after reading very little info available online.









http://www.gomohu.com/free%20tv%20-%...0antennas.html 



When I plugged in my very first DTV card into my HTPC I also got NOTHING. I used a black VCR cable that would not pass UHF. All of those cables in my house have been cut into pieces.


With a good cable I discovered that almost ALL TV stations in the S.F. Bay area were on the air already and I could get most of them.


SHF


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1* /forum/post/20334067
> 
> 
> Look at the "Mudflap VHF Antennas" on the product page, it looks like your antenna perhaps:
> 
> http://www.greenwavescientific.com/d...20Antennas.pdf



It says "Frequency ranges: 20-500 MHz". 500 MHz is the upper end of channel 18. No wonder it doesn't work.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BCF68* /forum/post/20334284
> 
> 
> It says "Frequency ranges: 20-500 MHz". 500 MHz is the upper end of channel 18. No wonder it doesn't work.



Hi,


Have you looked up the design of antennas in smart phones?


I found the antenna design quite remarkable and very contrary to what I knew about antenna design.


The idea: "Someone seemed to think that it was a basic rectangle with a 1 inch feedline." to me seems quite very wrong.


Also: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1008952 


has been interesting reading, but it has been quite a while since I did.


I have a problem understanding how a "Smart Antenna" working from VHF high to UHF 51 could be produced.


The "mohu" is not the only one on the DTV market , there was one report that they had a similar one working near me and I am ~ 36 miles from Sutro and in the land of serious multipath.


The "mohu" may be a waste of time, remember it is for the low cost and wife friendly market.


> Quote:
> "A surprising amount of study and engineering work went into the design of the Leaf TV antenna. It wasn't until one of our engineers decided to convert from cable television to over-the-air broadcasting that we realized that there were no high performance antennas on the market. This motivated the patent pending design of the new paper-thin antenna. The Leaf Antenna was designed by experienced antenna engineers who have been designing antennas for the US military for years (see our sister company GreenWave Scientific)."



RCA has a similar one of a "patent pending design".


Myself, I believe that it will not work most of the time for most of the people and would not for me.


Saying that they just repackaged a mudflap antenna appears to be just wrong.


SHF


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Saying that they just repackaged a mudflap antenna appears to be just wrong.



Jeez Louise, I didnt say that, heh. I said it was like a take off (a derivative) of their mud flap antenna design. Give me a break, heh.


> Quote:
> The idea: "Someone seemed to think that it was a basic rectangle with a 1 inch feedline." to me seems quite very wrong.



I also said, since it was claimed as omni directional, a simple rectangle is NOT what it is.


Since kayo_michael had already ordered the item, and since I, having no experience with said item, I didnt want him to feel bad, but I just wanted him to test it.


kayo_michael, personally I would take it/send it back to see if it was totally defective. If it wasnt and if it was just a piss poor product, and the cost of returning wasnt great, I would keep testing and returning many times. Retailers and manufacturers do notice their return rates. And open box items in some cases can benefit others, if, for example, they're closer to the transmitters, so you can feel good about that.


----------



## mikepier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kayo_michael* /forum/post/20333031
> 
> 
> I got nada, zip, zero. no channels. I tried moving the antenna up, putting it on an exterior window, no ch's at all.
> 
> 
> I hope I am doing something wrong. I have a Samsung PN50B650, using auto program scanning the "air" antenna for signals.



If your using that Mohu antenna, forget it. Go to Radio Shack and get a real VHF/UHF outdoor antenna and try it outside on the roof. If it does not work, at least you can return it.


I'm not that far away from you, and had to go outdoors with my antenna for reliable reception. I'm 24 miles away from ESB.


----------



## kayo_michael




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/20333994
> 
> 
> Post your exact TVFool results. I just used the TVFool for Babylon, NY and you should almost be getting some channels with a paper clip, heh.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8d178d99538728



Thanks for all the feedback guys. Here are my TVFool Results

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8d17aa625c487e 


I am a little disappointed that it doesn't work in my area. I am going to return it. I most likely won't get another antenna to try. Right now it's just not worth the effort. I will try again later since we are planning to move soon.


Though this isn't my ideal placement, I tried taping the antenna to the West facing window on the 2nd floor using a small bedroom tv we have. I figured if this doesn't work then no other placement will. Still nothing. We live in an apartment so no access to the roof or attatic.


I got the Mohu because of it's design over anything else. My wife and I have been content with just Netflix and Hulu Plus for over 6 months. I figured this is an unobtrusive antenna that we can mount behind something (art, photos, shelves) it would be worth it if it worked.


The Mohu is super thin, imagine a piece of laminated paper. Seriously, that's what it looks like. I found it interesting that the Mohu has pretty specific mounting instructions. It's black on one side and white on the other. At first I figured this must be for purposes of blending with decor. However the instructions said it must be mounted white side facing toward the wall (black facing out). Also, it cannot be mounted sideways (cord must hang from bottom).


It came with a discount promo code so I'll post it here if that's kosher with the rules.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/20334676
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> Since kayo_michael had already ordered the item, and since I, having no experience with said item, I didnt want him to feel bad, but I just wanted him to test it.
> 
> 
> ...



Hi,



> Quote:
> Jeez Louise, I didnt say that, heh. I said it was like a take off (a derivative) of their mud flap antenna design. Give me a break, heh.



I tried to say exactually the same thing.


It was the


> Quote:
> "It says "Frequency ranges: 20-500 MHz". 500 MHz is the upper end of channel 18. No wonder it doesn't work."



that was what I was referring to with the repackaged mudflap. Clearly wrong to me. Note: The Mohu Leaf I can find nothing on frequency range so the upper and lower frequency range are unknown. 6-51? 20-45? ... I see no hints, just try it and return it if it does not work.




> Quote:
> "I also said, since it was claimed as omni directional, a simple rectangle is NOT what it is."



I totally agree. The antenna I was most suprised by was one designed by a drunk beetle with a damaged brain dragging a ink pen that is used in smart phones. Scaling the size up lowers the frequency band.


I fast forwarded through a short video from NASA last night I have seen many times before. It was about an antenna designed by a computer that could reshape the antenna and test it's design over and over. The best antenna looked so very strange that I could not understand at all how it might work. That antenna was sent into outer space and sent back data from millions of miles away.


My idea of a TV antenna is so very old that so many on the market today I could not recommend at all. But they must be working for some persons.


> Quote:
> "you should almost be getting some channels with a paper clip, heh."



I was suprised with the report of NO stations, I expected unhappiness with the antenna, not a report of


> Quote:
> "I got nada, zip, zero. no channels.".



.

Trying the antenna at a friends house with a different TV and location I would suggest is in order.


SHF


----------



## 300ohm

Quote:

The antenna I was most suprised by was one designed by a drunk beetle with a damaged brain dragging a ink pen that is used in smart phones.
Dr Nate Cohen (aka FractalGuy on the other forum) probably wouldnt like that description of him, heh.

Quote:

designed by a computer that could reshape the antenna and test it's design over and over. The best antenna looked so very strange that I could not understand at all how it might work. That antenna was sent into outer space and sent back data from millions of miles away.
I saw that video too. It looks like something that was crumpled up to be thrown in the trash, heh. Its not a very high gain antenna, but its the best given the size and location restriction on that particular satellite.



Quote:

I was suprised with the report of NO stations, I expected unhappiness with the antenna, not a report of
Yeah, it almost sounds like a dead short at the F connector.







He should have at least got PBS channel 21.

Quote:

I found it interesting that the Mohu has pretty specific mounting instructions. It's black on one side and white on the other. At first I figured this must be for purposes of blending with decor. However the instructions said it must be mounted white side facing toward the wall (black facing out).
Another odd thing, considering the omni-directional claim.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/20339088
> 
> 
> Dr Nate Cohen (aka FractalGuy on the other forum) probably wouldnt like that description of him, heh.



Hi,


Sorry if I offend anyone, I was trying to come up with a description that someone not knowing of fractals might understand. I searched for a picture of a smartphone antenna but only got iPhone antenna problem answers.


I think it was a video about fractals that might have provided my knowledge of the smart phone antenna. Am I right that increasing the size might cover the DTV range?



> Quote:
> Yeah, it almost sounds like a dead short at the F connector.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He should have at least got PBS channel 21.



I was at a campground just south east of vanderburg and discovered the snack bar scanner antenna cable had a short in the connector right at the radio and another short in the connector where it was connected to the antenna. Thank the local Radio Shack for that. My own scanner with a short antenna on top of my van worked just fine so I was suprised and started checking why.


SHF


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Am I right that increasing the size might cover the DTV range?



In theory yes, but there are other issues such as native impedence etc. Cell phone fractals are gangs of antennas coupled together.


----------



## nihattt01

Quote:

Originally Posted by *pjo* 
*CM4228 Owners*


I was wondering if you folks could tell me how far away this thing can pull in signals from. It's listed as having a 60 mile range but was wondering if there have been folks attaining ....
Under ideal circumstances, 150 miles is possible. But that means a mountaintop transmitter, and no mountains in the way


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nihattt01* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Under ideal circumstances, 150 miles is possible. But that means a mountaintop transmitter, and no mountains in the way



Over flat terrain, I have a RF26 station that's 85 miles away and is 24/7 reliable. It's transmitter antenna has about 1500 feet on me, and it is 1000kw. The 2 low ridges that are the edge diffractions are just a little lower on the line of my signal path. I think this is about the upper limit over Midwest-type terrain.


----------



## LithOTA

Looks like Winegard has redone thier website. It looks very nice, but something is missing...like half of the antennas. It seems they may be reducing thier product line.


----------



## rabbit73

Just like what Channel Master did.


----------



## LithOTA

This thread needs a kick in the hind end.

http://abilityhdtv.com/info/79/ 


This "Super Yooper" rig looks interesting. The author makes some pretty extreme reception claims for a location that's at lake level. Has anyone here used the Fracarro Sigma, or have any information about it?


----------



## tylerSC

The Fracarro products look promising and I am interested in their 920 antenna which looks similar to the 91XG. Also want to try out the AbilityHDTV ultra low noise preamp. Curious about that Sigma antenna as well.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Has anyone here used the Fracarro Sigma, or have any information about it?



More info here:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=131680 
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=138730


----------



## MrBruce

Hope I am posting this in the correct forum, if not please excuse my error.


I am building a horizontal VHF High television antenna, sorry I do not have a picture of it as a picture saves a thousand words.


I have an array of 12 elements 6 on each side on a 2X2 board.


Each set is spaced 5 1/2" apart.


I used a converter program to convert frequency to length.


Example: VHF Channel 12's low frequency is 210 MHz, for a 1/2 wave antenna. The converter stated the result is 26.742 inches.


I have 26.742 Inches as the length, I cut two pieces of bright copper wire at a length of 13.5 inches and placed both wires 1 1/2 inch apart from each other at 5.50 inches from the director element which is 11.50 inches long.


To make a long story short, I now have 12 elements, each set longer than the first from front to back.


This allows the antenna to cover VHF HIGH channels 13 through VHF channel 8, because each element is measured roughly for the frequencies between VHF television CH 8 through VHF channel 13.


My question is how should each of the 12 elements be wired to each other?


I have tried to look at close up detailed images of VHF television antennas and can not make out the way the elements are connected to each other electronically.



So my question is this, do I start with element number 2 left and cross over to element number 3 right or do I just wire each element on each side with out crossing over the boom to the other side and back again?


If I have confused any one here, what I am asking here is do I criss-cross the wires from element 2 left to element 3 right than element 4 left then element 5 right, or do I go 2 left, 3 left, 4 left with one wire and then element 2 right, element 3 right, then element 4 right?


I do not happen to have an antenna handy at this moment to get an idea how those elements are connected to each other, so this is where I am lost, as to how to connect them together correctly with the connecting wire that eventually connects to the down feed wire.


That is where I am a bit confused, if my question confuses someone, please ask me for more details.


Bruce.


----------



## LithOTA

Wow. This is not a Yagi, right? It's an LPDA?

Are you working from a published design, or is it your own?


----------



## MrBruce




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/20410025
> 
> 
> Wow. This is not a Yagi, right? It's an LPDA?
> 
> Are you working from a published design, or is it your own?



I believe my antenna would fit the description of a Yagi.


I am not currently following any designs being that most antenna plans I see on line are for UHF only, I have built one of those antennas with the coat hangers that are set up like cat whiskers, works great for UHF.


I have several channels that are still on VHF, preferably channels 12 and 13, that antenna can not bring those channels in.


I tried wiring my antenna which is made of a 2x2 and copper wires cut to what I thought would work, I connected each of the elements with copper wire and tried criss-crossing the connecting wire.


Result was fail, antenna failed to bring in station less than 10 miles away on VHF channel 9, so My idea failed to work.


I have a spool of house wiring, not sure what gauge wire, I am trying to use that bare wire as elements to bring in VHF, I can not find any decent plans out there for VHF High preferably channels 10 through 13.


I want the antenna to be directional for optimum gain, I am in eastern Connecticut trying to pick up digital VHF channels 12 WNAC and 13 WPRI from Providence R.I. former analog channels were known as channel 12 WPRI and 64 WNAC just for reference.


Any clue what I need to do about building one, sorry to say since cable TV came to town years ago, one out of 3000 houses here have any TV antennas at all, they just do not exist here, otherwise I'd try buying a used one off someone.


Besides buying a new one, I would rather try building one.


Any suggestions out there or any detailed plans available for a VHF high type TV antenna would be greatly appreciated.


As it looks my, creation failed to work.










Bruce.


----------



## rabbit73

*MrBruce*:


Welcome to the world of antenna builders. I ran Norwich at tvfool.com for a rough idea of your signals, but if you did it for your exact address (which doesn't show up in the report), it would be more accurate:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8d1782cbaa8787 


You are in luck because real channels 12 and 13 are both at 59 degrees azimuth.


CH 9 is about 50 dB stronger than 12 and 13, but it is in the opposite direction. I don't know if that will be a problem for you or not.


A yagi antenna has elements that are continuous, without a break in the middle and are not connected to each other; they interact with each other just by being near each other. The longest element, at the rear is called the reflector. The next element is called the driven element (which usually is split in the center) and has the feed line connected to it. The rest of the elements towards the front are called directors. The reflector and directors are called parasitic elements because of the way they interact with the driven element. Where did you get the idea that they should have a break in the center?


K6STI has plans for a CH7-13 VHF-HI yagi here:
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/vhftv.htm 


You can combine your UHF antenna with you VHF antenna with a UVSJ, which is a very low loss device that looks like a splitter.


K7MEM also has a site for yagi design:
http://www.k7mem.com/Electronic_Note...vhf_quick.html 


Sometimes a link to his site doesn't work, possibly because of Javascript. If that happens, go to google.com and enter k7mem. In the list of sites that comes up look for Martin E. Meserve - K7MEM - VHF/UHF Yagi Antenna Quick Designer.


I would use tubing instead of wire for greater bandwidth.


----------



## MrBruce




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/20410547
> 
> *MrBruce*:
> 
> Where did you get the idea that they should have a break in the center?



I had no clue, I tried looking at images of VHF television antennas and they all looked like the elements were separated where they attach to the boom.


I know commercial antennas are designed to be folded up for transport, so from what I could see from images of antennas it appears like the elements on either side of the boom are separate.


Then there also appears to be a heavy wire running down the length of the boom going from element to element.


So basically what you are saying is I should only have had the driven element separated and the rest should have been done up as one solid piece?


I think you'd laugh if you seen this thing I built, too bad I don't have a image hosting site to put it up on.


Thanks in advance.


Bruce.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/20410547
> 
> *MrBruce*:
> 
> 
> K6STI has plans for a CH7-13 VHF-HI yagi here:
> http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/vhftv.htm



I've built several of this design, it's really easy to build and works very well. As good as a RCA 751 on VHF-high, and about the same size.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrBruce* /forum/post/20410653
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> I think you'd laugh if you seen this thing I built, too bad I don't have a image hosting site to put it up on.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> 
> Bruce.



Hi,


But you have an image hosting site, it is called AVS.


Here is a picture I just posted, it is for a station that has 12 Video sub channels and 8 audio only sub channels.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post20406177 


See this for help:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/misc.php?do=bbcode 


It is best to use an editor to crop the picture and reduce the file size. "PNG" and "JPG" are good file formats. Use as much compression as the subject allows. Files from some cameras are huge and should be processed.


Placing inline which forces display of the picture should be used with restraint.


The Harmonic just looked so cool.










SHF


----------



## rabbit73

*MrBruce*:


> Quote:
> I think you'd laugh if you seen this thing I built, too bad I don't have a image hosting site to put it up on.



You can also show us an image as an attachment, which only members can see. That is what SFischer1 did in his example post, but he carried it one step further to also show the image in the post itself which was linked to the attachment, so that non-members could see it. If I understand correctly, SHF was using the attachment as an image host.



> Quote:
> Then there also appears to be a heavy wire running down the length of the boom going from element to element.



Maybe you saw a log-periodic antenna that has elements connected the way you described:
http://www.radio-electronics.com/inf...g_periodic.php 


This is the post by LithOTA for more details about his K6STI yagi:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=4472 

*LithOTA*:


> Quote:
> I've built several of this design, it's really easy to build and works very well. As good as a RCA 751 on VHF-high, and about the same size.



Nice job on the K6STI YAGI.

*SFischer1*:


Thanks for the link to the BB Code List. I didn't know it was there.


> Quote:
> The Harmonic just looked so cool.



Yes, very cool.


----------



## LithOTA

Quote:

Originally Posted by *rabbit73* 
*MrBruce*:

Nice job on the K6STI YAGI.
Thank You! That's the only antenna I've ever built that doesn't look like my 11-year old built it.

I've built 3 of those, one with the 300-ohm folded dipole. That folded dipole was a lot harder to make (especially getting the sweep angle right), but it performed better.

This antenna design could very easily be built into a shallow box frame 3 feet square by a few inches tall. The frame could be covered with decorative fabric and attached to the ceiling, with the antenna aimed out the window. This would be a great way for an apartment dweller to hide a very effective indoor 7-13 antenna.


----------



## rabbit73

You're welcome.
Quote:

That folded dipole was a lot harder to make (especially getting the sweep angle right), but it performed better.
That's interesting. K6STI bent the driven element back to increase the coupling between the driven element and the reflector for a better F to B ratio. I wonder if, instead, it would be possible to bend the ends of the reflector forward to increase the coupling between the two so that it wouldn't be necessary to bend the driven element.


----------



## MrBruce




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/20411316
> 
> 
> I've built several of this design, it's really easy to build and works very well. As good as a RCA 751 on VHF-high, and about the same size.



That is a cool antenna, can you give me the complete dimensions on it, such as element spacing, element length and such?


I took a picture of my antenna, just can't seem to get it to send to my email account at the moment.


Bruce.


----------



## rabbit73

MrBruce:


To show us your picture, click on Post Reply. When the box comes up, look beneath it for Manage Attachments. After you click on that, click on Browse to search your collection of photos in your computer. Click the photo you want to attach and upload it. Wait for the upload to complete, then click on Close this window.


If you have clicked on Quick Reply, you must go to Go Advanced to find the Manage Attachments button.


> Quote:
> That is a cool antenna, can you give me the complete dimensions on it, such as element spacing, element length and such?



If LithOTA doesn't give you the dimensions, they are at the bottom of this page, but are kind of hard to understand unless you are used to looking at the results of computer modeling:
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/vhftv.htm 


> Quote:
> The resulting antenna has a boom length of 32″, longest element of 33″





> Quote:
> Use ⅜″ aluminum tubing or ½″ EMT conduit mounted through a nonconducing boom or supported by insulated mounting brackets. *Symbols r, de, d1, d2, and d3 are element half-lengths (center to tip),* dep, d1p, d2p, and d3p are element positions relative to the reflector (center to center), and ang is the driven-element angle. Split the driven element leaving a gap no larger than ¼″ and angle each half 17.5° (EMT: 13.1°) so that the center of the tips is 4¼″ (EMT: 4¾″) from the centerline of the reflector. Feed directly with 75Ω coax and use a ferrite choke at the feedpoint. Keep the stripped coax leads as short as possible.





> Quote:
> ang = 13.08496
> 
> r = 16.17926, reflector is 32.35852 inches long
> 
> de = 14.79809, driven element is 14.79809 inches *each side*
> 
> d1 = 12.62507, director number 1 is 25.25014 inches long
> 
> d2 = 12.00776, director number 2 is 24.01552 inches long
> 
> d3 = 10.61058, director number 3 is 21.22116 inches long
> 
> dep = 8.137193, distance from reflector to driven element
> 
> d1p = 11.35854, distance from reflector to director number 1
> 
> d2p = 18.23999, distance from reflector to director number 2
> 
> d3p = 31.96714, distance from reflector to director number 3



You are not expected to make measurements that precise, it's just the way the computer modeling program gives results. His dimensions are based on using tubing instead of wire for the elements, which would give slightly shorter dimensions for the tubing. LithOTA can tell you what dimensions he used for wire.


----------



## MrBruce

Okay don't laugh, but here it is as best as I can get the whole thing in the image.


Originally I had each element separated at the boom and ran a connecting wire from front to back running criss-cross from one side to the other.


I corrected that and now each element is connected as a solid piece, only the second from the longest one is separated it has the two wires from a circuit board which is part of an amplifier connected to just those two elements.


If you look at this image the left side is the director the right side with the coax sticking out from boom is the reflector, only the second element from the right is separated into two pieces and only that element is connected to the down feed wire.


The director is 25" wide


The driven element is 34" but separated in the middle as two separate elements connected to down feed wire.


Reflector is 38" long.


other 3 elements as can be seen are about 2 inches longer than the director element so element number 2 is 27 inches and so on until you get to the driven element which is 34" long.


Does this design work? Nope WEDN DTV 9 alias WEDN 53 Norwich which is basically 8 Miles away tower is almost in clear site minus a few houses in the way, it comes in at RF 25%, not good at all!


So basically this design is flawed!


Here is the image.


Attachment 211328


----------



## M_Minnick

I am looking to transition from Dish to OTA and would like an antenna recommendation. I have plenty of room in my attic for a large antenna, and would like to avoid placing one outside. The attic does have rigid metallic insulation, so I'm not sure how that would affect reception. Here is my TV Fool report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8d177e6221789b 


Price is not really a factor, and I would like to feed 3-4 tv's and possibly a tuner card in my computer.


Thanks,

Mike


----------



## rabbit73

MrBruce:


Thanks for posting your photo.


> Quote:
> Does this design work? Nope WEDN DTV 9 alias WEDN 53 Norwich which is basically 8 Miles away tower is almost in clear site minus a few houses in the way, it comes in at RF 25%, not good at all!



It should do better than that. You might be suffering from signal overload to the amp from the very strong CH9 signal; have you tried it without the amplifier?


Your tvfool report again for Norwich:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8d1782cbaa8787 


That report says 4.7 miles for CH9, so it's not as accurate as an exact address report would be.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Does this design work? Nope WEDN DTV 9 alias WEDN 53 Norwich which is basically 8 Miles away tower is almost in clear site minus a few houses in the way, it comes in at RF 25%, not good at all!



Yeah, you dont need something that intricate. A simple holl_ands vhf-hi loop should work fine for you without an amp.

http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/vhfloop 



Maybe even a large paper clip would, heh.


----------



## rabbit73

M_Minnick:


You have many strong signals, but metallic insulation can completly block them. Is the insulation under the roof, or in the attic floor?


Is there any way the signals can get into the attic without having to go through the insulation, like through the end of the attic?


My wife and I live in an apartment that has an aluminum foil vapor barrier on the insulation for the exterior walls that completly blocks TV and cell phone signals. We have to use an outside antenna for OTA, and stay very near a window for the cell phone (or go outside).


> Quote:
> Price is not really a factor, and I would like to feed 3-4 tv's and possibly a tuner card in my computer.



First you need to get one set working OK, and then worry about more sets.


----------



## rabbit73

300ohm:


MrBruce said earlier that he wants 12 & 13, which is why he is considering the yagi, not only for the extra gain, but for the rejection of CH9 at the rear.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrBruce* /forum/post/20410521
> 
> 
> I have several channels that are still on VHF, preferably channels 12 and 13.....
> 
> 
> I have a spool of house wiring, not sure what gauge wire, I am trying to use that bare wire as elements to bring in VHF, I can not find any decent plans out there for VHF High preferably channels 10 through 13.
> 
> 
> I want the antenna to be directional for optimum gain, I am in eastern Connecticut trying to pick up digital VHF channels 12 WNAC and 13 WPRI from Providence R.I. former analog channels were known as channel 12 WPRI and 64 WNAC just for reference.
> 
> 
> Any clue what I need to do about building one, sorry to say since cable TV came to town years ago, one out of 3000 houses here have any TV antennas at all, they just do not exist here, otherwise I'd try buying a used one off someone.
> 
> 
> Besides buying a new one, I would rather try building one.
> 
> 
> Any suggestions out there or any detailed plans available for a VHF high type TV antenna would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> Bruce.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Price is not really a factor, and I would like to feed 3-4 tv's and possibly a tuner card in my computer.



I take it youre not interested in the channels at 135 or 15 degrees, only the channels at 85 degrees above the 33.5 NM. (And FOX at 9 degrees, which could be a problem.)

Is that right, FOX, uhf 28, at 87.8 miles away and you still have a 41.0 NM LOS ?? WOW.


I would get a Winegard 7694P antenna with a HDP 269 preamp and a 4 way splitter. Or instead of the preamp and splitter, maybe a Channel Master 4 outlet distribution amp.

Going from 4 splits to 5 will cause more expense and maybe some problems.

If you decide on a higher power preamp than the HDP 269, then I would get an attenuator with that. Overloading in your case could be a tricky issue.

With a higher gain antenna than the 7694P, you decrease your chances of getting FOX.


If you cant get FOX with that setup, then youll need a separate uhf only antenna and setup in that direction.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> MrBruce said earlier that he wants 12 & 13, which is why he is considering the yagi, not only for the extra gain, but for the rejection of CH9 at the rear.



Oops, didnt read his previous post.



> Quote:
> I have a spool of house wiring, not sure what gauge wire, I am trying to use that bare wire as elements to bring in VHF,



Youre going to have to use better materials than that to bring in your channels 12 and 13, and to make it last outdoors.

Like 3/8" and 1" tubing from old antennas


On the other forum there are dimensions for a Wade Delhi 10Y12S, a very good single channel cut yagi antenna about 12.15 dBi (10 dBd) with low SWR, which can be rescaled for channel 13. The bandwidth would be enough for also channels 10, 11 and 12. And the way its constructed makes it fairly easy for DIYers.

Channel 13 would have about a 6' 9" boom.
http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/cutchannel.pdf


----------



## LithOTA

Here is a link to the design. AVS member Hollands has lots of other cool designs there too, info that's worth its weight in gold.

http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagi...hoac51.eagle_s


----------



## MrBruce

@ 300Ohm and Rabbit37.


This antenna will be used in an attic along with my UHF antenna.


Although I have UHF channels 26 WHPX New London CT and WPXQ which is really transmitting from Hope Valley R.I not Block Island R.I. those do not cause me any performance issues here.


I get DTV channel 29 WUNI from Massachusetts at 60% scale 98% of the time here.


Very strongly here here is the report on that station from TVFool :


Channel: 29 (27.1)

Network: Univision (SI)

Maximum ERP: 270.000 kW

Coordinates: 42.335926 -71.714792



WJAR DTV-51 From Providence R.I. comes in quite well as well as WLNE DTV-49.


As far as Connecticut stations west of the Connecticut river, only WTIC DTV-31 and WEDH DTV-45 show any possible meter readings here.


I am on a hill, my open clear shot areas are north-north east.


Ch 9 When is west of me channel 26 is south and in less than 3 miles is an FM station at 97.7 Mhz and WEDN has an FM transmitter at 89.5 Mhz I do believe.


I am trying to pick up my network feeds from R.I. since the CT stations are hard to get here.


Bruce.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> This antenna will be used in an attic along with my UHF antenna.



Channels 12 and 13 are going to be very hard to do in an attic.



> Quote:
> dimensions for a Wade Delhi 10Y12S, a very good single channel cut yagi antenna about 12.15 dBi (10 dBd) with low SWR, which can be rescaled for channel 13. The bandwidth would be enough for also channels 10, 11 and 12.



Update, I posted build dimensions for a 10Y13S (a rescaled 10Y12S) here, post #95 :
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...=139654&page=7 


Its also good down to channel 9. Also posted a corner reflector version of it that is top of the line excellent for the entire vhf-hi range of 174 -216 mhz.


----------



## M_Minnick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/20414224
> 
> 
> M_Minnick:
> 
> 
> You have many strong signals, but metallic insulation can completly block them. Is the insulation under the roof, or in the attic floor?
> 
> 
> Is there any way the signals can get into the attic without having to go through the insulation, like through the end of the attic?
> 
> 
> My wife and I live in an apartment that has an aluminum foil vapor barrier on the insulation for the exterior walls that completly blocks TV and cell phone signals. We have to use an outside antenna for OTA, and stay very near a window for the cell phone (or go outside).
> 
> First you need to get one set working OK, and then worry about more sets.



The insulation is under the roof. If the attic may/will be a problem, I can mount an antenna on the eave where the satellite dish is currently installed. The height will most likely be less than 15 feet there, but based on the TVFool report, it looks like I should still be able to pull in a decent amount of channels.


----------



## M_Minnick




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/20414295
> 
> 
> I take it youre not interested in the channels at 135 or 15 degrees, only the channels at 85 degrees above the 33.5 NM. (And FOX at 9 degrees, which could be a problem.)
> 
> Is that right, FOX, uhf 28, at 87.8 miles away and you still have a 41.0 NM LOS ?? WOW.
> 
> 
> I would get a Winegard 7694P antenna with a HDP 269 preamp and a 4 way splitter. Or instead of the preamp and splitter, maybe a Channel Master 4 outlet distribution amp.
> 
> Going from 4 splits to 5 will cause more expense and maybe some problems.
> 
> If you decide on a higher power preamp than the HDP 269, then I would get an attenuator with that. Overloading in your case could be a tricky issue.
> 
> With a higher gain antenna than the 7694P, you decrease your chances of getting FOX.
> 
> 
> If you cant get FOX with that setup, then youll need a separate uhf only antenna and setup in that direction.



Thank you for the specific recommendations. Amazing that you can buy all the hardware for less than the pice of one month's satellite service. I'll see what kind of reception I can get in the attic, and if that doesn't work, i'll just mount it on the eave.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *M_Minnick* /forum/post/20417273
> 
> 
> Amazing that you can buy all the hardware for less than the price of one month's satellite service.



DING DING DING DING DING DING DING !!!!

If this secret got out, a lot of folks would go OTA.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Amazing that you can buy all the hardware for less than the price of one month's satellite service.



Yeah, you just need basic equipment in your location. In your case, extreme, large high gain pricey stuff will be detrimental.

And you have the additional benefit of having almost all of your signals come from one basic direction. Thats actually pretty rare.


The preamp only needs to make up for the 7 db splitter loss and the small cable loss of a couple of db. The HDP-269 is the best available against overloading.

Code:


Code:


I can mount an antenna on the eave where the satellite dish is currently installed.

The existing J pole for the satellite dish should be fine for the 7694P.


----------



## Mister B

(And FOX at 9 degrees, which could be a problem.)

Is that right, FOX, uhf 28, at 87.8 miles away and you still have a 41.0 NM LOS ?? WOW.


KBFX-CA on RF 58 carries FOX in HD and is up in the mountains east of Bakersfield with the other major networks.


----------



## 300ohm

Thats good to know.



Im still stunned at 88 miles and Line of Sight and 41.0 NM, heh. Man, that 219 KW transmitting tower must be waaay, waaay up high.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/20419620
> 
> 
> Thats good to know.
> 
> 
> 
> Im still stunned at 88 miles and Line of Sight and 41.0 NM, heh. Man, that 219 KW transmitting tower must be waaay, waaay up high.



Looks like Mount Baldy at well over 8000 feet. Yeah, that'll get a bit of signal out!

A tower that high here is Flatland could probably be reliable at over 150.


----------



## bernieoc

Quick question,

Does a A/B switch used to switch input between two TV sets loose signal the way a two way splitter would?

One is a nightime TV the other is in my shop. They are almost never used at the same time.

Thanks,

Bernieoc


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bernieoc* /forum/post/20425963
> 
> 
> Does a A/B switch used to switch input between two TV sets loose signal the way a two way splitter would?



No, an A/B switch has very little loss. I would guess around .05db or less, compared to 3.5 to 4db with a 2 way splitter.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/20426042
> 
> 
> No, an A/B switch has very little loss. I would guess around .05db or less, compared to 3.5 to 4db with a 2 way splitter.



Several months ago I inserted this Remote Control A/B Switch between my satellite LNB (L-Band) and satellite receiver card (Twinhan 102G). IIRC, it did not change the signal level.


----------



## holl_ands

A/B Switch Loss is probably a bit higher...like 0.2 to 0.5 dB....or more...

F-Type connectors are NOT ultra low loss devices....

Plus the loss in the RF Relay itself, such as fol. "typical" TO-5 size devices:
http://www.teledynerelays.com/pdf/el...anical/732.pdf 
http://www.teledynerelays.com/pdf/el...nical/s422.pdf 


BTW: PIN Diode switches might be "all solid state", but insertion loss is even higher:
http://www.minicircuits.com/pdfs/ZMSW-1111.pdf


----------



## gbynum




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/20444752
> 
> 
> A/B Switch Loss is probably ...
> 
> F-Type connectors are NOT ....
> 
> Plus the loss in the ...
> 
> BTW: PIN Diode switches might be "all solid state", but ...



AWW ... don't confuse us with FACTS ... HOPE is far more better


TINSTASFL, and All General Statements are False.


----------



## MrBruce

I figured I should at least update everyone on my progress.


I built the VHF antenna 300ohm mentioned in his link.


I have success, WPRI DTV 13 and WNAC DTV 12 are booming in at a steady 55--65 %, I am also getting both stations sub channels 13.2 and 12.2.


I used 3 strands of copper wire on each element including the driven element.


Here are some picture of both in my attic.



This is the VHF Antenna

Attachment 212336 



This is my UHF

Attachment 212337 


VHF is pointing N-NE


UHF is pointing almost due north.


Both are connected to the same amp through a splitter and a single downlead to my HDTV receiver.


I built another 4 bay and tried pointing it to the w-n/w pulled in WTIC DTV 31 as well as antenna TV on 31.2 at roughly 45 % signal.


Also WEDH DTV 45.1 45.2 45.3 and 45.4 at 30%.


Ran into issues with WEDN DTV 9.1 9.2 9.3 9.4 and some what WHPX 26.1 26.2 26.3 and 26.4 over powering my amp a bit, being that Bozrah CT is almost due w-s/w.


I am gonna work on a possible shield to block signals from that direction, only thing it might kill my chances of getting would be WCTX 39.1


Bruce.


----------



## mikepier

Nice use of the jack stand as a base.


----------



## arxaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by *MrBruce* 
Both are connected to the same amp through a splitter and a single downlead to my HDTV receiver...
A VHF+UHF combiner would likely work much better than a splitter.
 
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...al%20Combiners


Also, instead of the "jack" mounting, you could've just hung that antenna down from the roof trusses.


----------



## n8wci

Glad it's working for you...love the "2 Ton" antenna base.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I figured I should at least update everyone on my progress.



Tips:

To straighten wire, put one end in a vice, the other end in vice grips. Hit vice grips hard with hammer a few times until straight.

Technique two: put one end of wire in vice, other end in a drill. Turn drill until straight.

Technique three, build a wire straightening jig.


Techinque four, for really tough thick wire. Tie one end of wire to building, the other end to a high torque vehicles frame. Drive a few inches.


----------



## MrBruce

I should have included rabbit73 as well as 300ohm's names in my post above, it was the measurements in rabbit73's post that I used.


Also yes that is a 2 ton jack stand I used as well as an old broom handle for the mast.


The other UHF antenna I built is not pictured, so I will post a picture here.

Attachment 212427 


This antenna, unlike the other one is portable, the other UHF antenna was constructed on an existing roof support 2x4, so it is basically incapable of being rotated.


The reflector and the elements are a bit messy looking at the moment was trying to make adjustments to get better signal when the wires entering the balun snapped, got a bit pissed off and through the thing down through the attic access panel LOL


Yes that is common household aluminum foil on cardboard for the reflector, hey didn't cost anything to build it, that is up till now, since I need a new balun, store down the street has Trisonic brand matching transformers (model number TS-1121A) for $1.99


I presently can not use the one pictured above because unfortunately the wires entering my balun broke just where it enters the balun housing, so time to buy a new balun.


I have to say this, the FCC made a mess of things with this new digital technology, true the picture quality is better, but the signal capturing is very annoying to say the least.


Stations that once served South-Eastern Connecticut with a viewable picture are almost impossible to get without having a 300 foot tower and high gain antennas.


They should have simply allowed all stations to increase their power output and better channel allocations so there isn't two stations within 150 miles of each other on the same channel.


Bruce.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrBruce* /forum/post/20461685
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> Also yes that is a 2 ton jack stand I used as well as an old broom handle for the mast.
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> Bruce.



Hi,


Send your pictures in to the Tonight show, Jay might use them in "Headlines" as "White Trash Repairs".


His show is in HD so your HD DTV antennas are what is needed.










IMHO if it works, that is just fine.


My VHF 2-13 antenna in my attic is tied up with string and worked just fine from ~ 1972 to 2010 when a faraday cage was built around it along with my UHF antenna on a rotor.


SHF


----------



## MrBruce




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1* /forum/post/20461773
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Send your pictures in to the Tonight show, Jay might use them in "Headlines" as "White Trash Repairs".
> 
> His show is in HD so your HD DTV antennas are what is needed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SHF



LOL Thanks for the laugh!











Bruce.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> They should have simply allowed all stations to increase their power output and better channel allocations so there isn't two stations within 150 miles of each other on the same channel.



Hopefully, theyll work that out over time. With virtual channels, the process is way less painful than it would be without them. Of course, the station changing its real channel number will have to notify its viewers to rescan the TV.


----------



## MrBruce

Well point blank, they are talking about limited amount of channel space, yet they took most of the UHF band away, first channels 70 through 83, now channels 52 through 69 and took away channel 37.


Go figure huh?


I seriously can not wait until the stations just resort to using their actual digital RF frequencies as channel identification if they use any at all.


Listen I realize they did it to benefit the behind the times TV viewers out there that can not accept change, having their favorite station on channel 10 change its name to channel 51 might confuse people, but what they should have done was make prior announcements in the pre-digital days that they would be moving to another channel, like they did years ago when an analog station changed to a different frequency, they made regular announcements prior to the change.


Here is why I am annoyed by the way this was done.


If I do a scan and my digital tuner finds lets say for the sake of argument WNAC DTV RF 12.1, when I change channels on my digital tuner, WNAC comes in listed as 64.1 its old analog frequency so basically it comes in between channels 53 and 69, when it should be in between 11 and 13.


I suppose the stations will do that eventually, I realize a few have resorted to branding them selves as each states FOX station or CBS station, such WTIC is now labeled as FOX Connecticut etc.


Just hope they get better organized before too much longer and make it so the stations come in according to their actual digital RF frequency not their former analog one.


Bruce.


----------



## LithOTA

Last year I threw together this Frankenstein of an antenna, but it didn't work very well so I shelved it. It was intended to receive two opposite stations, one on RF12 and one on RF13. A G-H should work, but it wouldn't get both from one location.

This year, I spent some time on tweaking it and experimenting with hot spots, and it's really cooking now. This antenna was designed using K7MEM's Yagi design page, targeted at RF 13, but I deleted the reflector and mirrored the directors on the other side of the driven element (the antenna is symmetrical longitudinally). Got the idea from a movie I saw once at a stag party.

The RF12 & RF13 are the local VHFs of interest, and now they are both strong enough that I can merge them into home distribution using a UVSJ.

Weird antenna, but it works!


----------



## holl_ands

Design dimensions for MANY UHF and Hi-VHF antennas can be found here:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands 


4nec2 Geometry Editor figures provide an outline against a grid (typ. 0.5-in/small box) and look at the 4nec2 File

itself for detailed dimensions.


Downloading the FREE 4nec2 program allows you to look at the antenna's 3D figure so you can click

and read out various other dimensions: http://home.ict.nl/~arivoors/ 

Since my 4nec2 files are in MS-Office *.doc format, they need to be SAVED AS a *.txt file and (optionally)

change the file type from *.txt to *.nec.


LPDA's, such as described above, can be found in the ZigZagLPA folder.


----------



## evan237




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrBruce* /forum/post/20463258
> 
> 
> Well point blank, they are talking about limited amount of channel space, yet they took most of the UHF band away, first channels 70 through 83, now channels 52 through 69 and took away channel 37.
> 
> 
> Go figure huh?
> 
> 
> I seriously can not wait until the stations just resort to using their actual digital RF frequencies as channel identification if they use any at all.
> 
> 
> Listen I realize they did it to benefit the behind the times TV viewers out there that can not accept change, having their favorite station on channel 10 change its name to channel 51 might confuse people, but what they should have done was make prior announcements in the pre-digital days that they would be moving to another channel, like they did years ago when an analog station changed to a different frequency, they made regular announcements prior to the change.
> 
> 
> Here is why I am annoyed by the way this was done.
> 
> 
> If I do a scan and my digital tuner finds lets say for the sake of argument WNAC DTV RF 12.1, when I change channels on my digital tuner, WNAC comes in listed as 64.1 its old analog frequency so basically it comes in between channels 53 and 69, when it should be in between 11 and 13.
> 
> 
> I suppose the stations will do that eventually, I realize a few have resorted to branding them selves as each states FOX station or CBS station, such WTIC is now labeled as FOX Connecticut etc.
> 
> 
> Just hope they get better organized before too much longer and make it so the stations come in according to their actual digital RF frequency not their former analog one.
> 
> 
> Bruce.



I doubt the broadcasters want to spend the marketing dollars to rebrand themselves according to their new RF frequences since the digital/HD conversion. More importantly, such expenditures would become a complete waste of money if the FCC requires that broadcasters pack up and move again.


The lobbies of the satellite and cable companies are hard at work. And currently, the FCC is considering various proposals. These proposals include the further reduction in RF frequencies that broadcasters are currently allowed to use.


We will have to wait and see how this all shakes out. But, given the current realities, I am sure broadcasters would rather stick with their virtual channel numbers for marketing purposes.


----------



## hayj

Hi everyone. I'm helping out a friend transition to OTA. Here's his TV fool report. His situation is similar to mine with respect to direction and distance. I'm think about recommending a CM4228 which is what I am using. That way he has some extra signal in the event of a storm or any interference. Seem reasonable?


----------



## arxaw

If his channels of interest are at the top of the list in green on his TVFool report, all he needs is something like an ANT 751, which should work great in his case. He has tons of signal and the 4228 may actually not work as well. It certainly isn't needed.


The ANT 751 includes a mounting bracket.
http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out...B5C/ref=sr_1_1


----------



## hayj




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/20532224
> 
> 
> If his channels of interest are at the top of the list in green on his TVFool report, all he needs is something like an ANT 751, which should work great in his case. He has tons of signal and the 4228 may actually not work as well. It certainly isn't needed.
> 
> 
> The ANT 751 includes a mounting bracket.
> http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out...B5C/ref=sr_1_1



Thanks for the reply. Out of curiosity, why would the 4228 potentially not work as well?


----------



## The Hound

To much signal can overload your tuner causing problems.

My strongest station liked to disappear on clear days, I could not understand this.

The signal meter would fluctuate high, low at these times with no picture.

I swung my antenna slightly off, so my weakest station came in as strong as possible.

This solved my issues for the most part, very rare that that channel doesn't come in now.


He is only 8 miles out LOS.

Be aware that NBC is VHF high, not UHF.

Cheers!


----------



## arxaw

One reason is because the 4228 is much more directional than the ANT 751. And he just doesn't need that much antenna. Wasted money and unneeded wind load on the antenna mast, requiring a sturdier mounting.


Actually, a paper clip stuck in the coax port will probably work just fine, with his _*very*_ strong signal.


The 4228 is great for fringe areas (I have one myself). But it is not always the best antenna choice.


----------



## hayj

Thanks, everyone. I let him know about the ANT 751. Didn't catch the included mounting bracket. Definitely the way to go. Thanks again for the advice.


----------



## arxaw

Have him aim it at WBXX (CW), compass direction 290°. That is the weakest of his "green" channels.








Although roughly aiming it anywhere in a westerly direction will probably work just fine.
.

.



If possible, please post back with his reception results.


----------



## PCTools

Well, I have not been on here for awhile and thought I would post some pics of one of my set-ups.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *PCTools* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Well, I have not been on here for awhile and thought I would post some pics of one of my set-ups.



Is that all Winegard? Very clean-looking rig. What is the lowest noise margin it gets in each of the 3 bands?


----------



## arxaw

PCTools,

I'll trade towers with ya. Mine's about half that height...









Very nice setup.


----------



## PCTools

Actually, the tower is pushing the limit on height.


I have exactly 5 (10) foot sections starting at the ground going up. I have a house bracket at ~ 17 feet, which puts me 33' in the air above the bracket.


I love the Delhi antenna, yet it is no longer needed with the Digital changover, and only need a Ch. 7-11 antenna. The Winguard on top is the worst UHF antenna. I am just amazed on how crappy the reception is. This will be removed with an XG91.


Stay tuned, as I upload the pics of my other antenna array.


Has anyone heard any updates with the XG91 being updated (retuned) to lower frequencies?


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> Has anyone heard any updates with the XG91 being updated (retuned) to lower frequencies?



No such plans...


----------



## PCTools

My second tower install from start to finish.


All we need know, is Antennas Direct to release the so-called new XG91 which is tuned to take advantage of the lower band channels.


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> All we need know, is Antennas Direct to release the so-called new XG91 which is tuned to take advantage of the lower band channels.



read above...


----------



## LithOTA

I took the plunge and asked the wife for a 91XG for my birthday. I thought it might be helpful to pass along some info on the experience...

1. If Ikea sold antennas, this would be thier favorite. Made in Asia and shipped in an impossibly small box, assembly is a royal PITA, but $52 for such a powerhouse antenna is worth it (and Solid Signal had it on my porch less than 30 hours after it was ordered).

2. There will be some busted knuckles, so a pair of tight leather gloves would really help.

3. To get the director tabs onto the boom without breaking them, I disassembled the boom sections and removed all of the hardware. I then pressed the tabs onto the ENDS of the boom sections, which is much easier because you can use your thumb to spread one of the tabs. Next, I slid each director down the boom to it's hole, and locked it in. After they were all on, I reassembled the boom and attached everything else (dipole, reflector, mount).

4. I was leery of the way the 3 boom sections are connected, but that went away after I installed the U-brace. Very solid once it's all together.

5. Judging the performance will take some time, as there is some tropo activity in my area that could be skewing the results. I will reserve any judgements until after I've seen it operate under nominal conditions. But first impressions are very good, especially for frequencies above 35.

6. The 91XG does indeed get VHF-high, as some others have reported. All 3 of my VHFs under 45 miles (on 7, 12, & 13) come in weak but steady, with the best reception achieved with the antenna aimed about 15 degrees off target. It's better than the ClearStream 4 on all three frequencies.

7. My UHF collection includes the ClearStream 4 and Winegards 9022 & 4400. These are excellent antennas that would satisfy most folks who just want to watch TV, but they don't have that extra juice that's needed to swim in the deep end of the pool, as in stations with noise margins below -5. I plan to sell the 9022 to my buddy who loves PBS but can't get one reliably with his DB2, and the C4 will probably be split up again into 2 C2s (I want to set one of them up as a camping antenna). The 4400 might end up on the roof in an attempt to reel in a very weak RF17 that the 4400 receives pretty well.


----------



## arxaw

It is a very good fringe UHF antenna. For reference, please post your tvfool results link, if possible.


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> To get the director tabs onto the boom without breaking them,



I use both hands. Put both thumbs on the top/back of the plastic centerpiece and gently "open" up the clamp. Align over the hole in the boom and release the pressure on the ends of the directors. Ensure both clips are engaged securely around the boom. Removal, if necessary, is the reverse.




> Quote:
> All 3 of my VHFs under 45 miles (on 7, 12, & 13) come in weak but steady, with the best reception achieved with the antenna aimed about 15 degrees off target.



Out-of-design-band reception is quite often off bore-sight for many antennas. I haven't played with a 91XG on the VHF bands for a long time, but your observation isn't unexpected. I've also seen response at 90° off the boom.



> Quote:
> the C4 will probably be split up again into 2 C2s



We've had folks who have mounted the two sections vertically (two baluns, 2 equal length coaxes, and a splitter) pointed in the same direction. It gives them a consistent 70° beamwidth, but, when properly spaced, flattens the vertical beamwidth and gives a bit of an increase in gain. Something to try if you're so inclined.


BTW, what's that hanging off the rear of the 91XG's boom?


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADTech* /forum/post/20563473
> 
> 
> BTW, what's that hanging off the rear of the 91XG's boom?



That's the Kitztech KT-200 Coax preamp, inside it's homemade weatherproof box. With the C4 and the 4400, I used a conduit hanger to secure the box to the mast, just behind the antenna. On the 9022, I clamped the conduit hanger to the butt end of the boom, with the box off to the right.

That wouldn't work on the XG, but what works even better is I turned the box 90 degrees and discarded it's bolt and nut. I then used the XG's reflector-bracket bolt and nut by spreading the tabs of the conduit hanger. As a bonus, the tabs act like big washers and hold the reflector brackets better.

The coax from the balun to the amp is only about 8 inches.


----------



## MikeGmach1

I am a DTV DXer who likes to experiment with antennas. Right now I am working with an old 10ft satellite dish to make a large UHF dish antenna. I am using a ChannelMaster 1220HD in the focal point as the signal pick up. It did not work as well as expected when I put it up 30ft AGL. The gain on the ground was great, but up high not so good. Maybe it is not aiming correctly vertical to the horizon?

Mike


----------



## arxaw

Perhaps you were getting a signal boost from a ground-bounce?


----------



## MikeGmach1

Possibly, but my reference antenna was at the same height, about 6' AGL.

Mike


----------



## ctdish

Mike,

I am not sure what a CM1220 antenna looks like. Satellite dishes are deep for a UHF antenna and probably should be feed with a fairly low gain UHF antenna perhaps one with two bowties and a reflector. Also the beamwidth will be very small in both horizontal and vertical planes so aiming will be very critical in direction and in vertical elevation. You might need to tweak the tilt angle after it is mounted.

John


----------



## MikeGmach1

PCTools,


Nice setup, I have a pair of 91XGs and a pair of Funke F1922-5/12s for high band. They are up about 55' on a crankup tower.


Mike


----------



## MikeGmach1

ctdish wrote:


"I am not sure what a CM1220 antenna looks like. Satellite dishes are deep for a UHF antenna and probably should be feed with a fairly low gain UHF antenna perhaps one with two bowties and a reflector. Also the beamwidth will be very small in both horizontal and vertical planes so aiming will be very critical in direction and in vertical elevation. You might need to tweak the tilt angle after it is mounted."


Hi ctdish,

I mixed up the antenna part number, I am using the CM-4220HD which is a 2 bowtie antenna, similar to what the old 4251 used. I think you are right about the tilt. I found it to be quite sensitive while testing on the ground. I will kick it up a few degrees when I reinstall it.

Do you know of anyone doing this?


Mike


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MikeGmach1* /forum/post/20572663
> 
> 
> I think you are right about the tilt.



I use a level to preset the elevation angle of a dish. The first step is to calculate the desired angle, and then figure out the gap required with a 2' level. Common angles require a .25" gap at the bottom of the level in order to aim to a mountain top. In flat land and aimed at a distant station the back frame of the dish would be perfectly plumb.


----------



## BW4949

I've finally cut the cable and started shopping for an antenna...having a hard time deciding, and hoping for some good advice from this forum. My TVfool report is attached. I'm just trying to get the big 3 networks right in the city, as well as WJSU. I'm fine with an outdoor antenna...whatever it takes to get the best picture quality. I'm dragging my wife along kicking and screaming, so it needs to be easy (no rotator or gain knob to mess with). I've looked at the Winegard 1080, but not sure if it will receive Channel 9 from 30 miles out if it's pointed at the nearby UHF stations at 015 deg. Can anybody help me out?


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BW4949* /forum/post/20576119
> 
> 
> I've finally cut the cable and started shopping for an antenna...having a hard time deciding, and hoping for some good advice from this forum. My TVfool report is attached. I'm just trying to get the big 3 networks right in the city, as well as WJSU. I'm fine with an outdoor antenna...whatever it takes to get the best picture quality. I'm dragging my wife along kicking and screaming, so it needs to be easy (no rotator or gain knob to mess with). I've looked at the Winegard 1080, but not sure if it will receive Channel 9 from 30 miles out if it's pointed at the nearby UHF stations at 015 deg. Can anybody help me out?



Ah, yes...it wouldn't be any fun if the wife wasn't kicking and screaming, would it?


To make sure that you get ABC, you want a 7-51 or 7-69 antenna. The 1080 only pays lip service to VHF, although being only 5 miles away should make it easy. I would try the RCA 751 (aka EZ-HD), which is only 3 feet long and made by Winegard. It will get all of those green-level stations, with the possible exception of WUOA, which you could get with rabbit ears. You would aim the 751 to the northeast, and find a sweet spot that gets all of your stations in the 13-85 degrees direction. I would think that you could get all of them on down to WTJP, and you should not need an amplifier at all.

Going with a big rig (huge antenna, rotator, wife screaming louder) would only get you a limited number of additional channels, and isn't worth it unless you are like me and have nothing better to do.


----------



## LithOTA

Now that the tropo activity has subsided, I can make some more objective judgements on my new 91XG. There is a marked improvement in all of the channels with NMs below +5, with those above RF 35 showing the most improvement.

With my dish 722 dual-ota tuner, 60 is the digital cliff.


As you can see, stations on freqs up in the 40's showed big improvements, especially WMSN-47 on RF49. This station will be changed to "daytime" thanks to the XG. WISN-12, WBME-49, and WTMJ-4 have crossed over from being merely watchable to now being solidly reliable.

Some Madison stations with Chicago co-channels, which only come in with a bit of tropo help, are now much more likely to do so. The high rear and side rejection of the XG, combined with the laser-beam forward gain, now allow for the strong reception of 2 stations on RF25 (one far-away full power, and one local low-power) by turning the rotor.

And one more thing- the XG really rocks on analog, too. A couple of very weak analogs in Chicago now look better than anything I had when I was a kid.

So far, I'd have to say the 52 bucks was money well spent.

 

91XG Performance.pdf 24.5791015625k . file


----------



## MikeGmach1

I grew up in Kokomo, IN, during the precable days and rooftop antennas were as common as mailboxes.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BW4949* /forum/post/20576119
> 
> 
> I've finally cut the cable and started shopping for an antenna...having a hard time deciding, and hoping for some good advice from this forum. My TVfool report is attached. I'm just trying to get the big 3 networks right in the city, as well as WJSU. I'm fine with an outdoor antenna...whatever it takes to get the best picture quality. I'm dragging my wife along kicking and screaming, so it needs to be easy (no rotator or gain knob to mess with). I've looked at the Winegard 1080, but not sure if it will receive Channel 9 from 30 miles out if it's pointed at the nearby UHF stations at 015 deg. Can anybody help me out?



An ANT 751 should pick up all your channels of interest. This antenna is tuned for channels higher than WUOA (7 and higher), but WUOA is so strong at your location that it should still work.


Start by aiming it at WJSU, your weakest station. If all is good, leave it in that position. If some of your other channels's signal strengths are low, move the antenna to the left in _very_ small increments until you find a sweet spot somewhere between 60° & 16° compass direction.


The ANT 751 is small and comes with its own J-mount bracket.


I would forget about the 1080.


----------



## BW4949

Thanks!


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/20576409
> 
> 
> Now that the tropo activity has subsided, I can make some more objective judgements on my new 91XG.



Thanks for the update.


I've been toying with replacing our old style CM4228 with an 91XG. We need a few more dB on RF channels 39-43. The most important for us is Boston WGBX, channel 43. There does not appear to be a clear winner in a CM4228 vs 91XG shootout so I've been holding out hoping Antennas Direct will do an optimized 14-51 version. The reduced bandwidth ought to move the gain peak right where I need it.


The polar plots don't look all that different between the 4228 and XG but from everything I've read it appears the 91XG is more directional. That ought to help here in terrain challenged, forested NH.


----------



## arxaw

Tschmidt,

Have you tried your current antenna in different locations or different heights at the current location? Sometimes a foot or two higher or _lower_ can make a huge difference when hills are in the way.


Higher is not always better.
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/?p=134


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/20580970
> 
> 
> Have you tried your current antenna in different locations or different heights at the current location?



Not really.


Mast is gable mounted so it is not feasible to move to another location. I'm using an unguyed mast so cannot go any higher. When I put it up a couple of years ago though about experimenting with different heights but was lazy. Because of the height have to take it down to relocate antenna on the mast. In my "lazy" defense the antenna is about 30' high with skyline tipped up about 10 degrees due to 70' high trees in front of the house. Do not think lower position will help, but have no data to verify that assumption.


If I change out the UHF antenna plan to stick it on a temporary mast so I can experiment with fine tuning height.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tschmidt* /forum/post/20580951
> 
> 
> Thanks for the update.
> 
> 
> I've been toying with replacing our old style CM4228 with an 91XG. We need a few more dB on RF channels 39-43. ...
> 
> ...The polar plots don't look all that different between the 4228 and XG but from everything I've read it appears the 91XG is more directional. That ought to help here in terrain challenged, forested NH.



How much you want for that old 4228? The only way to get one now is there's a guy in Sterling, Illinois who has 3 brand-new 3021's on eBay for $30 each. I suppose that two of them could be ganged horizontally, and a harness like the one on Antennahacks would really rock.


The XG is really cooking on the higher freqs, and even a few of the lower ones. A real suprise is W25DW, a low-power Home Shopping digital on RF25. This station has a pathetic noise margin of -17.3, and yet the XG is pulling it in during the day. And it has a full-power co-channel up in Milwaukee with a noise margin right at zero, so the side rejection is great. Rear rejection is also impressive, as I've been able to grab several Madisons each night that have powerful co-channels behind the antenna. I think the XG's reflector might be a lot more effective than it looks like.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> A real suprise is W25DW, a low-power Home Shopping digital on RF25. This station has a pathetic noise margin of -17.3, and yet the XG is pulling it in during the day.



Heh, I was surprised with a low noise margin Home Shopping channel a few years ago too. Turns out, that particular network likes to use a lot of repeaters, that TVFool doesnt list. You'll have to dig deeper into the FCC data base to find your real transmitter.


Actually, my Home Shopping channel is on RF25 too, so we may well be talking about the same network.


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> so I've been holding out hoping Antennas Direct will do an optimized 14-51 version.



No such plans are currently in the pipeline. The 91Xg is such a low-volume item that it simply would never pay off to develop and produce a re-scaled unit. Besides, while the current frequency range isn't optimized for the 14-51 range, it's still pretty darned good out in the real world (where it counts). FYI, it's looking like the rescaled 2- and 4-bay bowties will be available sometime this fall. I field tested prototypes back in March and I know the pre-production tooling has been ordered.


Keep in mind that Yagis and bowties will always have gain vs frequency curves that look almost the same as to the slope since they are inherently a narrow-band antenna. If you want a broadband UHF antenna with a nearly flat response across the design band, the tapered loops on our ClearStreams will do that, but it becomes quite cumbersome to achieve gains much higher than 12 dBi.


----------



## LithOTA

Quote:

Originally Posted by *300ohm* 
Heh, I was surprised with a low noise margin Home Shopping channel a few years ago too. Turns out, that particular network likes to use a lot of repeaters, that TVFool doesnt list. You'll have to dig deeper into the FCC data base to find your real transmitter.


Actually, my Home Shopping channel is on RF25 too, so we may well be talking about the same network.
No repeater on this one, it's broadcast from the Aon Center in the Loop (not the Sears, Hancock, or Chump towers), so it's about 350 feet lower than the other Chicago transmitters. Only 12.5 kW, and it's directional to the southwest, whereas I'm northwest of it.

http://www.rabbitears.info/contour.php?appid=1418918


----------



## stockwiz

recommend me an antenna for my mother's place to be mounted on the roof to get the channels in sioux falls, to the SSE. The more powerful the better. Thanks.


----------



## arxaw

If that were my TVFool and if KTTW Fox was the lowest station on the list I was interested in, I would get this antenna:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HD7694P 

If I also wanted KWSD CW, I would get something bigger:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HD7698P 


For a long coax run or if splitting to multiple TVs, add this preamp between the antenna and the splitter:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HDP-269


----------



## xlr8r

I have a rabbit ears antenna with a flat 300hm connector which I attached to a 75 ohm adapter and plugged that in to my digital TV converter box. It works pretty well and the box picks up quite a few digital channels.










Can I add a UHF loop by just attaching the loop's 300 ohm connector ends to the same screws on the 300 to 75 ohm adapter where the VHF cable is attached and using the UHF and VHF antennas together? Or is there some special way that the UHF loop antenna signal should be added to the rabbit ears VHF connection that is more complicated?










Thanks


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *xlr8r* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> I have a rabbit ears antenna with a flat 300hm connector which I attached to a 75 ohm adapter and plugged that in to my digital TV converter box. It works pretty well and the box picks up quite a few digital channels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can I add a UHF loop by just attaching the loop's 300 ohm connector ends to the same screws on the 300 to 75 ohm adapter where the VHF cable is attached and using the UHF and VHF antennas together? Or is there some special way that the UHF loop antenna signal should be added to the rabbit ears VHF connection that is more complicated?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks



It works, but you'd be combining the signals from both antennas, with will probably weaken some channels.

Better to use a UVSJ, or UHF-VHF signal joiner. It has an input for each and the tuner will only use the rabbit ears for VHF and the loop/bowtie for UHF. Radio Shack has them in 75 ohm and 300/75 combinations, for under 10 bucks.


----------



## The Hound

 http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062060


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *xlr8r* /forum/post/20600388
> 
> 
> I have a rabbit ears antenna with a flat 300hm connector which I attached to a 75 ohm adapter and plugged that in to my digital TV converter box. It works pretty well and the box picks up quite a few digital channels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can I add a UHF loop by just attaching the loop's 300 ohm connector ends to the same screws on the 300 to 75 ohm adapter where the VHF cable is attached and using the UHF and VHF antennas together? Or is there some special way that the UHF loop antenna signal should be added to the rabbit ears VHF connection that is more complicated?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks



I would recommend trying a bowtie alone before adding the rabbit ears and bowtie together. The same connector you are using for rabbit ears will work for the bowtie. I say this because, when I combined the 2 antennas with the 4-screw uhf/vhf adapter, my reception was considerably worse for uhf signals. Also, be aware that the bowtie alone may be able to receive vhf high signals. Aim for one channel at a time.


----------



## DefelRadar

I live in Indianapolis and was looking for an antenna recommendation. I've attached my TVFool report. I was hoping for an attic mounted antenna but I can mount it on the peak of my 2nd story facing north as well.


Thanks in advance for your help!


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DefelRadar* /forum/post/20602356
> 
> 
> I live in Indianapolis and was looking for an antenna recommendation. I've attached my TVFool report. I was hoping for an attic mounted antenna but I can mount it on the peak of my 2nd story facing north as well.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help!



Either one of these, aimed N/NE should get your stations of interest, and probably even those to the South (around 200° compass direction), off the back side of the antenna.
* http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...8762454&sr=1-1 *
* http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out...B5C/ref=sr_1_1 *


----------



## DefelRadar

Thanks for the recommendation. Can either of these antennas go in the attic and still pick up well? Thanks.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/20602621
> 
> 
> Either one of these, aimed N/NE should get your stations of interest, and probably even those to the South (around 200° compass direction), off the back side of the antenna.
> * http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...8762454&sr=1-1 *
> * http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out...B5C/ref=sr_1_1 *


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Either one of these, aimed N/NE should get your stations of interest, and probably even those to the South (around 200° compass direction), off the back side of the antenna.
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...8762454&sr=1-1
> http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out...B5C/ref=sr_1_1



The CM4221HD is UHF only, for VHF also (CBS and NBC) the CM4228HD would be better.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...rev_prod_title


----------



## arxaw

CBS has a UHF translator. And at his NM, the 4221 will work fine for channel 13 (nbc). The 4228 is often too big to fit through an attic opening.

@DefelRadar,

Attic reception, like indoor reception, is unpredictable.


----------



## klandry7




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> CBS has a UHF translator. And at his NM, the 4221 will work fine for channel 13 (nbc). The 4228 is often too big to fit through an attic opening.
> 
> @DefelRadar,
> 
> Attic reception, like indoor reception, is unpredictable.



I hadn't noticed the translator.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/20602990
> 
> 
> The 4228 is often too big to fit through an attic opening.



Can't it be broken down and re-assembled in the attic? Are the fasteners that hold it together removable?


----------



## oamezcua

Hello, I live in Chula Vista, CA (suburb southeast of San Diego). Roof mounted antennas are against HOA rules so I need an attic config. The diagonal for my attic access is 35 inches (probably not an issue if I assemble the antenna in the attic). I am primarily interested in KNSD-TV, KFMB-TV, KGTV-DT, KSW-TV but would like to receive as many channels as possible. Attached is my tvfool report. Thanks in advance!


----------



## arxaw

You have several VHF stations. Those are often difficult to receive reliably with an attic antenna and reception is impossible to predict, due to building material variables. You also have stations in multiple directions, which may require a rotor, or a multi-antenna setup.


Per the FCC, HOAs can *not* restrict TV antenna installation on your own private non-common property, unless you live in a historic district.


----------



## nycdigital09

a small winegard 7xxx series aimed at your further stations, your nearby stations will be picked up from the back of the antenna.


----------



## oamezcua

Right, Section 207 of the Telecommunications Act of 1996 allows for installation of an antenna in your own patio or balcony but not on the buildings roof. So an attic install may be my best bet because my balcony is on the southeast side of my condo.


----------



## oamezcua

Wow, there are twelve 7.x.x.x series winegard antennas. Got any suggestions on how to narrow the search down?


----------



## Dave Loudin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oamezcua* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Right, Section 207 of the Telecommunications Act of 1996 allows for installation of an antenna in your own patio or balcony but not on the buildings roof. So an attic install may be my best bet because my balcony is on the southeast side of my condo.



That is not correct. If the roof is part of your property, which for townhouses should be the case, then you can install an antenna on it. I think the allowance is 12 feet.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oamezcua* /forum/post/20614155
> 
> 
> Hello, I live in Chula Vista, CA (suburb southeast of San Diego). Roof mounted antennas are against HOA rules so I need an attic config. The diagonal for my attic access is 35 inches (probably not an issue if I assemble the antenna in the attic). I am primarily interested in KNSD-TV, KFMB-TV, KGTV-DT, KSW-TV but would like to receive as many channels as possible. Attached is my tvfool report. Thanks in advance!



A single combo antenna will not be reliable in your location due to the off-axis locations for the La Jolla and Tijuana sites.


You will require two antennas: A "medium-range" high-VHF antenna pointed towards La Jolla for channels 8 and 10 (ignores LP VHF-9, Estrella TV), and a UHF antenna pointed towards Mt San Miguel.


I'd suggest the ClearStream 5 for the high-VHF duties and a 4-bay antenna such as the DB4 with the reflector removed (makes it bi-directional) combined with a UVSJ (included with the C5). Barring local building and other local concerns, it ought to work.


----------



## mcfoo

Here is my tvfool result:









I installed this G-H to replace a 90 mile RS:









The G-H is aimed about 350 and 15 feet up, and I rarely get ch34 and ch28 occasionally pixilates. Just like the RS.

Which of these would be a better performing replacement?

Channel Master 4221HD









Antennas Direct DB4









Wineguard HD4400









I'm only interested in the first 5 stations.


----------



## rabbit73

John:


> Quote:
> The G-H is aimed about 350 and 15 feet up.....



Where is it located, inside or outside?


> Quote:
> and I rarely get ch34 and ch28 occasionally pixilates.



Do you mean PBS virtual 34.1 on real channel 38, and Fox virtual 28.1 on real channel 36? It looks like overload from signals that are too strong. Are you using a preamp or a distribution amp?


The G-H or the 4221HD should be more than enough for your location, unless something is blocking the signals.


What are you using for reception, a digital TV, an analog TV with a converter box, or a tuner for a PC? How long is the coax from the antenna to the TV? Any splitters for more than one TV?


----------



## LithOTA

The Winegard 4400 doesn't get a lot of love, but it's dirt cheap, feather light, and beats almost anything on freqs below RF26. See HDTVPrimer.com antenna comparison charts. How can you go wrong for 22 bucks?


Don't buy a DB2 or DB4 right now- they are being rescaled for the 14-51 range, so wait for the new one.


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/20617588
> 
> 
> The Winegard 4400 doesn't get a lot of love, but it's dirt cheap, feather light, and beats almost anything on freqs below RF26. See HDTVPrimer.com antenna comparison charts. How can you go wrong for 22 bucks?



Looks like you could make that 4400 yourself if you new the exact specs.



> Quote:
> Don't buy a DB2 or DB4 right now- they are being rescaled for the 14-51 range, so wait for the new one.



with the way things are going they might as well just rescale them for channels 14-30.


----------



## mcfoo

Thanks for the replies. To answer rabbit73, I am talking about virtual 34.1 and 28.1. The antenna is outside, and is connected by 40 feet of RG59 to a RS amplified splitter going to 2 old Directv satellite receivers, and thence to Samsung LCD TVs.


Interestingly, both TVs will display 28.1 and 23.1 using their internal receivers, but the satellite receivers cannot do so. I much prefer to use them because of the integrated channel guide.


----------



## yoricksdeath

I'm extremely interested in cutting cable and was wondering were to start with my location. Such as what type of antenna.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...03d9f2f6dbafeb 

This is my tvfool report, thanks for the help.


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mcfoo* /forum/post/20618021
> 
> 
> Thanks for the replies. To answer rabbit73, I am talking about virtual 34.1 and 28.1. The antenna is outside, and is connected by 40 feet of RG59 to a RS amplified splitter going to 2 old Directv satellite receivers, and thence to Samsung LCD TVs.



A) Switch that RG59 to quad shielded RG6


B) Lose the amplified splitter. You're signals are too strong for that.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mcfoo* /forum/post/20618021
> 
> 
> Thanks for the replies. To answer rabbit73, I am talking about virtual 34.1 and 28.1. The antenna is outside, and is connected by 40 feet of RG59 to a RS amplified splitter going to 2 old Directv satellite receivers, and thence to Samsung LCD TVs.
> 
> 
> Interestingly, both TVs will display 28.1 and 23.1 using their internal receivers, but the satellite receivers cannot do so. I much prefer to use them because of the integrated channel guide.



This 2bay is probably all you need with those signal strengths for the channels you want. As others suggested, you're probably getting signal overload and eliminating the amp may be all you need to do to fix your dropouts.


----------



## Mister B

Yoricksdeath, Are you in Virginia or California? If you are in CA and interested in receiving the Barstow translators, I have had quite a bit of experience with those as my uncle used to live in Hesperia. They are low power but broadcast from a good height. They can be seen as you drive north on I-15 through Barstow. Any small UHF antenna such as pictured just a few posts above yours in this thread should work fine. The antenna should definitely be mounted outdoors, although a northwest facing window might work if there is no other alternative.

Do be aware that all but KHIZ and KCET are still analog and standard definition. The local newspaper used to list the channel numbers and their corresponding source stations in the TV section. As I recall all were from LA except the CBS station was from Bakersfield.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BCF68* /forum/post/20617706
> 
> 
> 
> 
> with the way things are going they might as well just rescale them for channels 14-30.



...or 2-30


----------



## mcfoo

My thanks to all. I'll change the cable and try eliminating the amp to see if the G-W will do the job first.


----------



## yoricksdeath




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mister B* /forum/post/20618876
> 
> 
> Yoricksdeath, Are you in Virginia or California? If you are in CA and interested in receiving the Barstow translators, I have had quite a bit of experience with those as my uncle used to live in Hesperia. They are low power but broadcast from a good height. They can be seen as you drive north on I-15 through Barstow. Any small UHF antenna such as pictured just a few posts above yours in this thread should work fine. The antenna should definitely be mounted outdoors, although a northwest facing window might work if there is no other alternative.
> 
> Do be aware that all but KHIZ and KCET are still analog and standard definition. The local newspaper used to list the channel numbers and their corresponding source stations in the TV section. As I recall all were from LA except the CBS station was from Bakersfield.



Yes im in California. I'm near Hesperia too. As for the antenna which one pictured above? there are a few choices. Thanks for the information sounds like i should be able to get this going.


----------



## gbynum




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dave Loudin* /forum/post/20615147
> 
> 
> That is not correct. If the roof is part of your property, which for townhouses should be the case, then you can install an antenna on it. I think the allowance is 12 feet.



He said "condo". If it is really a condominium ownership, at least as defined in North and South Carolina, the outside of the unit belongs to the association, the inside to the "owner". That is why, when they want to be real jerks, even the railings are not usable and a weighted base is required.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gbynum* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> He said "condo". If it is really a condominium ownership, at least as defined in North and South Carolina, the outside of the unit belongs to the association, the inside to the "owner". That is why, when they want to be real jerks, even the railings are not usable and a weighted base is required.



"Condominium" is not a type of housing or building, it's a legal instrument to describe communal property. Apartments, townhomes, carriage homes, and even single-family detached homes can all be condos.

When condos are built, the Land Surveyor of record will come in before the drywall is installed and measure the airspace of the unit, stud-to-stud. That airspace, including the drywall and the flooring, is what the homeowner owns in full. Everything else is communal, and the key point for antennas is "exclusive use" versus "limited common element".

There are some townhouse subdivisions where the homeowner owns the whole thing- land, building, and everything else-but it has to be defined that way during the planning stages.

To find out how your property is defined, check the land survey that you got at closing. There will be a text legal description and a drawing that represents the space that is fully owned, and the communal spaces that are partially owned. There can be a lot of gray areas, especially in balconies and patios, but a good condo survey will define those areas clearly.


----------



## Mister B




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *yoricksdeath* /forum/post/20619214
> 
> 
> Yes im in California. I'm near Hesperia too. As for the antenna which one pictured above? there are a few choices. Thanks for the information sounds like i should be able to get this going.



I have the Winegard 4400 here in Texas. It is very well made and available from several internet sources. One nice thing about the flat panel 4 bay UHF antennas is they have a low wind load. I remember it can get quite breezy out in the high desert.

Do try to check the newspaper or other local source to see what stations are translated in Barstow. I remember back in the 90's there was no FOX affilate if that is critical to you. You are probably also aware that KCET is no longer PBS.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mister B* /forum/post/20620962
> 
> 
> I have the Winegard 4400 here in Texas. It is very well made and available from several internet sources. One nice thing about the flat panel 4 bay UHF antennas is they have a low wind load. I remember it can get quite breezy out in the high desert.
> 
> Do try to check the newspaper or other local source to see what stations are translated in Barstow. I remember back in the 90's there was no FOX affilate if that is critical to you. You are probably also aware that KCET is no longer PBS.



KCET is still PBS; just not subscribed to the national feeds.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/20625228
> 
> 
> KCET is still PBS; just not subscribed to the national feeds.



Hi,


Just like KCSM KCET has pulled the PBS plug, according to their website.


KCSM has had no problem getting programming I like.


---------------------------------

1) Why is KCET becoming an independent station?

KCET and PBS were unable to reach agreement on a reduction in PBS fees and on providing KCET more programming flexibility.


2) What will happen to the PBS programs on KCET?

KCET will continue to air the PBS schedule until December 31, 2010. Beginning on January 1, 2011, many of these PBS programs will be shown on KOCE-TV. You can visit www.koce.org for more information, or call KOCE at 800.278.


-------------------------------


SHF


----------



## Ennui

Quote:

Originally Posted by *SFischer1* 
Hi,


Just like KCSM KCET has pulled the PBS plug, according to their website.


KCSM has had no problem getting programming I like.


---------------------------------

1) Why is KCET becoming an independent station?

KCET and PBS were unable to reach agreement on a reduction in PBS fees and on providing KCET more programming flexibility.


2) What will happen to the PBS programs on KCET?

KCET will continue to air the PBS schedule until December 31, 2010. Beginning on January 1, 2011, many of these PBS programs will be shown on KOCE-TV. You can visit www.koce.org for more information, or call KOCE at 800.278.


-------------------------------


SHF
Thank you for the correction. I am sure KCET as an independent will have good programming also. The question is whether they can survive.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui* /forum/post/20628829
> 
> 
> Thank you for the correction. I am sure KCET as an independent will have good programming also. The question is whether they can survive.



Hi,


IMHO KCSM could not survive without pulling the PBS plug, they had been moving away for years.


They have to have programming that *is not duplicated* on NCPB to gather enough pledges. Their 24/7/365 pledge notes continue.


Their pulling the plug was done along with a call for $2M by the end of the year (Two Months) or they would go off the air. The company that built their HDTV equipment made a press release about their $$$$$ equipment being sold to KCSM about the same time. Really bad timing. Also the bill for rebuilding Sutro was coming due.

http://sutrotower.com/ 


While they have just as good HDTV signal as KQED *both transmitting from Sutro tower*, KCSM often shows 16:9 material letter boxed and pillared to my dismay. Perhaps they can pay less for programming this way.


I made this post to [HDTV-in-SFbay]:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/HDTV-in-SFbay/ 




> Quote:
> Hi,
> 
> 
> I keep wondering when NCPB (Commonly known as KQED) will take over KRCB.
> 
> 
> The KTEH wheeler dealer before he passed on over a series of lunches got KQED to take that station over.
> 
> 
> The problem was and is: I want to pledge money to PBS. Where of course, KQED. *With any overlapping signal coverage* KQED wins the money, KTEH was not sustainable with the cost of digital conversion. We all have benefited with KTEH staying alive and the programming very close to what it was. Plus KQED added Salinas / Monterey bay on KQET.
> 
> 
> With the overlapping signal of KQED, KRCB has the same money problem.
> 
> 
> I just checked, KRCB is coming in here in Sunnyvale. No, I do not watch.
> 
> 
> SHF




The same can be said for KCSM and I suspect KCET.


SHF


----------



## MrBruce

For any one who owns an 91XG UHF antenna, has any one measured the physical dimensions of this antenna?


I am curious what the follow measurements are:


Boom length.

Driven element length.

Director lengths.

How many directors.

How much distance between the driven element and the reflector mounting bracket.

The length of the reflector frame.

The dimensions of the reflectors.

The diameter of the elements.


Thanks in advance.


Bruce.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrBruce* /forum/post/20636089
> 
> 
> For any one who owns an 91XG UHF antenna, has any one measured the physical dimensions of this antenna?
> 
> 
> I am curious what the follow measurements are:
> 
> 
> Boom length.
> 
> Driven element length.
> 
> Director lengths.
> 
> How many directors.
> 
> How much distance between the driven element and the reflector mounting bracket.
> 
> The length of the reflector frame.
> 
> The dimensions of the reflectors.
> 
> The diameter of the elements.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> 
> Bruce.



There is this from our good friend Hollands:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/91xg


----------



## MrBruce




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/20637428
> 
> 
> There is this from our good friend Hollands:
> http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/91xg



Thanks for the link.


I may make an attempt to build a home-made version of this antenna.











I'll let you know how it turns out and I'll include pictures of it once it is done.


Bruce.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrBruce* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the link.
> 
> 
> I may make an attempt to build a home-made version of this antenna.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll let you know how it turns out and I'll include pictures of it once it is done.
> 
> 
> Bruce.



I was wondering if the XG could be rescaled for 700Mhz just by drilling new, wider-spaced holes for the directors. Would this work?


----------



## rabbit73

No, because you would also need to make the directors, and probably the folded dipole driven element, slightly larger for the lower design frequency.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> No, because you would also need to make the directors, and probably the folded dipole driven element, slightly larger for the lower design frequency.



Makes sense. But I wonder if it could help a little on the lower freqs.

That will be quite a project to build a homebrew version; probably one of the most difficult factory antennas to replicate. I'll be interested to see how it turns out.


----------



## xlr8r

Quote:

Originally Posted by *deltaguy* 
I would recommend trying a bowtie alone before adding the rabbit ears and bowtie together. The same connector you are using for rabbit ears will work for the bowtie. I say this because, when I combined the 2 antennas with the 4-screw uhf/vhf adapter, my reception was considerably worse for uhf signals. Also, be aware that the bowtie alone may be able to receive vhf high signals. Aim for one channel at a time.


I'm surprised to report that the $4 UHF bowtie from Radio Shack picked up exactly the same set of digital stations that I was receiving with rabbit ears. Does this mean they are all UHF stations or does it mean the UHF antenna also picks up VHF and vice versa? If anything the bowtie gets a slightly better signal.


----------



## deltaguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by *xlr8r* 
I'm surprised to report that the $4 UHF bowtie from Radio Shack picked up exactly the same set of digital stations that I was receiving with rabbit ears. Does this mean they are all UHF stations or does it mean the UHF antenna also picks up VHF and vice versa? If anything the bowtie gets a slightly better signal.
The bowtie should be slightly better for uhf channels and slightly worse for vhf channels. But, the bowtie is easier angle and angle can be important. For example, having a bowtie facing the ceiling/floor is best for some of my uhf channels here. I'm aiming for a single antenna farm (Walnut Grove). For vhf channels, the bowtie and flat wire in a "T" position works best. It's important that the flat wire not touch metal objects. The bowtie should also give you more placement options, and location is extremely important.


The bowtie probably wouldn't do too well for vhf on rf 2, rf 3 and rf 4. This makes it a "uhf" antenna.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *xlr8r* /forum/post/20639866
> 
> 
> I'm surprised to report that the $4 UHF bowtie from Radio Shack picked up exactly the same set of digital stations that I was receiving with rabbit ears. Does this mean they are all UHF stations or does it mean the UHF antenna also picks up VHF and vice versa? If anything the bowtie gets a slightly better signal.



If the TV signals are strong enough, most any metal object can work as a UHF or VHF antenna. Even a paper clip or twist tie stuck in the coax port will work sometimes.


----------



## Dave Loudin

That's why we like to see an estimate of how much RF is in the air via tools like TVFool before making any qualitative statements.


----------



## 300ohm

Quote:

Does this mean they are all UHF stations or does it mean the UHF antenna also picks up VHF and vice versa? If anything the bowtie gets a slightly better signal.
Did you post your TVFool report somewhere ?


The Radio Shack Classic bowtie is a favorite of mine, Ive had one since about 1968 when it was about $0.49 at the time, heh. From my modeling and real life testing, it does have about a 1 - 2 dbi gain over a typical simple 6 inch uhf loop on most channels. It does need to be rescaled for the new uhf range. And they should use copper or aluminum instead of stainless steel, even though stainless steel is tougher.


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1* /forum/post/20630176
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> 
> IMHO KCSM could not survive without pulling the PBS plug, they had been moving away for years.
> 
> 
> They have to have programming that *is not duplicated* on NCPB to gather enough pledges. Their 24/7/365 pledge notes continue.
> 
> 
> Their pulling the plug was done along with a call for $2M by the end of the year (Two Months) or they would go off the air. The company that built their HDTV equipment made a press release about their $$$$$ equipment being sold to KCSM about the same time. Really bad timing. Also the bill for rebuilding Sutro was coming due.
> 
> http://sutrotower.com/
> 
> 
> While they have just as good HDTV signal as KQED *both transmitting from Sutro tower*, KCSM often shows 16:9 material letter boxed and pillared to my dismay. Perhaps they can pay less for programming this way.
> 
> 
> I made this post to [HDTV-in-SFbay]:
> 
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/HDTV-in-SFbay/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The same can be said for KCSM and I suspect KCET.
> 
> 
> SHF



Always interesting to hear about TV stations in the SF Bay Area (moved to Cupertino in 1960 from Stockton and spent the 60s and 70s formative years living there). Have any of you looked into satellite transmission of the national PBS feed? There's a guy in Pueblo (south of me in Colorardo Springs) that does it and he is very happy with it - our local PBS channel is the pitts picture and programming quality wise (I get soooo tired of Antiques Road Show). He gets the full HD broadcast and there is just the one time equipment cost which isn't all that much. BTW, I remember watching Sutro Tower being built - my grandma lived in the Mission District and near the corner of Haight and Ashbury in the 60s, on Social Security no less. My mom couldn't stand visiting her - all those "dirty hippies" I thought it was a hoot.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Satcom15* /forum/post/20657405
> 
> 
> ... Have any of you looked into satellite transmission of the national PBS feed? There's a guy in Pueblo (south of me in Colorardo Springs) that does it and he is very happy with it - our local PBS channel is the pitts picture and programming quality wise (I get soooo tired of Antiques Road Show). He gets the full HD broadcast and there is just the one time equipment cost which isn't all that much. ...



Hi,


With NCPB (KQED, KTEH, KQET) sending six streams of programming (With additional dups.) and KCSM sending two (KCSM, MHz, jazz) my 5-7 tuners capture more than I can watch.


I have finally made some headway in reducing the backup on my N.A.S. (1TB) that started with the Winter Olympics.


I get all the HD PBS content from KQED I want with endless reruns in SD.


I just counted twelve (12) showings of "A Capitol Fourth 2011" with four (4) in HD. I had to cancel eleven (11) of the showings that my automatic scheduling program set up.


With 78 streams available here, Satellite is overkill. The ~ 24 hours / day movie channel just had to drop their power down (KTNC). I get the Twenty (20) streams on Channel on (1) (KAXT) just fine.


Want to see the entire list, no I do not get or want some stations, look here:


> Quote:
> Larry
> 
> SF
> 
> __________________
> 
> My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists:
> http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
> 
> 
> Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.choisser.com/broadcast.html



SHF


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1* /forum/post/20658152
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> 
> With NCPB (KQED, KTEH, KQET) sending six streams of programming (With additional dups.) and KCSM sending two (KCSM, MHz, jazz) my 5-7 tuners capture more than I can watch.
> 
> 
> I have finally made some headway in reducing the backup on my N.A.S. (1TB) that started with the Winter Olympics.
> 
> 
> I get all the HD PBS content from KQED I want with endless reruns in SD.
> 
> 
> I just counted twelve (12) showings of "A Capitol Fourth 2011" with four (4) in HD. I had to cancel eleven (11) of the showings that my automatic scheduling program set up.
> 
> 
> With 78 streams available here, Satellite is overkill. The ~ 24 hours / day movie channel just had to drop their power down (KTNC). I get the Twenty (20) streams on Channel on (1) (KAXT) just fine.
> 
> 
> Want to see the entire list, no I do not get or want some stations, look here:
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF
> 
> __________________
> 
> My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists:
> http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
> 
> 
> Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.choisser.com/broadcast.html
> 
> 
> SHF



Holy Cow! You are so lucky. I noticed there was nothing from Loma Prieta. KNTV is now broadcasting from San Bruno Mtn as the NBC affiliate and not KRON (Ind)? Interesting. When did that happen and why? I can recall watching the news on KRON sponsored by Palmolive in the 60s. Art Brown and Jerry Jensen. I'm showing my age. LOL


----------



## oc-rdx

SFischer1,


I saw on your list of stations that you indicated that only RF 2-51 are being used for television. We currently have two stations in LA area that are on RF 52 & 55. RF52 is KFLA 8 & RF 55 is KNLA 20. KNLA 20 is also on RF 50.


----------



## LithOTA

2-51 for digital tv, there are still analogs between 52 & 69.


----------



## SFischer1




> *ABC, NBC follies*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Satcom15* /forum/post/20658208
> 
> 
> ... KNTV is now broadcasting from San Bruno Mtn as the NBC affiliate and not KRON (Ind)? Interesting. When did that happen and why? ...


Hi,


It was very interesting.


First KGO paid KNTV to stop carrying ABC as they were duplicating their signal in the South Bay. That ended ABC OTA in Salinas / Monterey.


Then NBC demanded so much money from KRON to continue carrying their programs, a sum so huge that they could not make money if they paid.


It was up in the air if NBC would buy KRON or KNTV. I heard of two factors that may have mattered. KRON had shown a multi-part Russian Documentary on WWII instead of NBC shows. That did not make NBC happy at all.


NBC wanted to dip into the talent and thinking of Silicon Valley, KNTV had built a new studio on North First street in San Jose. KNTV had started carrying NBC shows at that point.


So NBC purchased KNTV.


Then KNTV threw KCSM's analog transmitter off of Bruno and they had no analog signal for a very long time, putting a flea power transmitter on the air that just covered their city of license when the FCC demanded that they do so. KCSM had a digital transmitter on Sutro by then as new antennas allowing multiple transmitters had been developed at that time.


KNTV then moved their transmitter North to Mt. San Bruno.


KRON still says they are "The Bay Area's News Station" but clearly KTVU and KGO are now.


KRON is finally profitable now but only ~ two of the talent remains from the old days.


ABC is now back OTA this spring in Salinas / Monterey being carried as the second 16:9 stream on KSBW's transmitter. The KSBW news is shown on both streams and KGO is gone from Cable and Satellite in that market. So Both NBC and ABC on KSBW. KSBW had moved their transmitter South to Fremont Peak.


KNTVs and KSBWs old towers are still up, KNTV has kept theirs but KSBW sold theirs. Loma Prieta has a pending LP station.

 

EDIT: 9/26/2013

KRON and one other San Francisco station now has news on Salinas / Monterey cable.


SHF


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oc-rdx* /forum/post/20660805
> 
> 
> SFischer1,
> 
> 
> I saw on your list of stations that you indicated that only RF 2-51 are being used for television. We currently have two stations in LA area that are on RF 52 & 55. RF52 is KFLA 8 & RF 55 is KNLA 20. KNLA 20 is also on RF 50.



Hi,


Sorry, it is NOT my list!


Here one of Larry's posts that I stole the links from.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post20640204 


SHF


----------



## Falcon_77




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/20660962
> 
> 
> 2-51 for digital tv, there are still analogs between 52 & 69.



The stations on 52 & 55 mentioned above are digital.


52-69 can be used for low power digital if they prove that there are no channels "available" in core. I put available in quotes as 2-5 are most definitely empty here right now, but there are applications which these stations used to justify them not being available.


Most LD's seem to realize that 15kW on UHF is much, much better than 0.3kW on Low-VHF.


Note that the LA area still has analogs on 57 & 67, so there are 4 low power TV stations still/now operating above 51. Also, the 2 digitals are both quite new. 55 wasn't vacant for long after MediaFLO went off the air and 52 fled 8 due to co-channel from San Diego.


Yes, we need more not less RF channels for TV in the LA area, so 2-69 and 7-69 antennas are not obsolete yet.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Keep in mind that when the new owners of the 700+ spectrum (ATT & Verizon) are ready for their new wireless real estate, they'll boot the last remaining broadcasters of these upper frequencies with little notice.


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1* /forum/post/20658152
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> 
> With NCPB (KQED, KTEH, KQET) sending six streams of programming (With additional dups.) and KCSM sending two (KCSM, MHz, jazz) my 5-7 tuners capture more than I can watch.
> 
> 
> I get all the HD PBS content from KQED I want with endless reruns in SD.
> 
> 
> I just counted twelve (12) showings of "A Capitol Fourth 2011" with four (4) in HD. I had to cancel eleven (11) of the showings that my automatic scheduling program set up.
> 
> 
> SHF



Talk about an embarresment of riches! You lucky dog. Our PBS programming is the pitts here. They cram their normal programming, VME (Spanish programming), and Create into one channel. So we never get the full bandwidth allocated to their premier programs. Tiling, audio dropouts, etc. are common. Apparently, the national feed downlink is in Denver then they shoot the signal to Cheyenne Mountain via microwave link for transmission in Southern CO. Its the pitts. Thus the interest in receiving the national feed satellite broadcast.


----------



## Ennui

I watch Riverside KVCR PBS (24.1, .2 .3 .4); KCET LA (28.1 .2 .3 .4) most of the time; KOCE PBS Orange County (50.1, .2 .3 .4) and KLCS LA (58.1 .2 .3 .4) all OTA plus a single HD channel on cable KPBS San Diego. Only the .1 channel of the OTA channels is in HD. I set up an outdoor antenna 15 years ago to get these channels.


----------



## LithOTA

I also have it pretty good when in comes to PBS. I get WTTW, WYCC, and WMVT 24/7, WMVS and WYIN every night, and WHA on some nights. All together, it's about 20 subchannels of PBS.

I have an antenna for the kid's rooms that gives them all the PBS and Qubo that they want.


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/20674746
> 
> 
> I also have it pretty good when in comes to PBS. I get WTTW, WYCC, and WMVT 24/7, WMVS and WYIN every night, and WHA on some nights. All together, it's about 20 subchannels of PBS.
> 
> I have an antenna for the kid's rooms that gives them all the PBS and Qubo that they want.



I should be so lucky with PBS. Its so lousy here and Rocky Mtn PBS keeps begging for $$$ - so I can watch more of Antiques Roadshow?. *sigh*


----------



## 300ohm

You can get most of the good PBS videos on PBS.org.


----------



## Clearce

HI, just wanted to mention good results with a newer indoor antenna.The model is Philips SDV6122t/27. My tvfool showed green for all stations of interest and I am under 5 miles for all with only 18 deg difference. I am in the city,(Philadelphia) but not downtown.

I have had poor results using a rs delta rabbit ears and a bad RS 15-1878 unpluged. I could get all my stations with the other antennas but not at the same time.

The new antenna is powered 20db something I was going to avoid to prevent overload. Also the rabbit ears much to my surprise are short,(16" fully extended). The surprise is that when first tryed in the same spot my old antenna was in , I got all my stations at once.


It claims to have a low noise transformer and to have a noise filter. I will need to do a little tuning but I am shocked to be able to click through all my channels and have them all show up with out moving anything.


The performance of this newer design is impressive. This is not older scary powered antennaes that are worse plugged in than not. If you live close to your towers but some rabbit ears are giving you fits try this. I needed low vhf, hivhf and mostly uhf and this came through right away. I was really going to try the RS 1874 budget ears, but the Radio shack didn't have any in stock that weren't damaged or defective, so they said. I would have compared the budget ears to the Phillips if I could have. I am done now.


I am shocked that a powered attenna ( with gain initialy turned all the way down) worked so well. And when I saw those mini dipoles I thought I was in trouble.

Someone who designed this antenna new what they were doing.


If you have to fiddle around with your indoor antennae too much, It may to try one of theese before you go attic or outdoor.


----------



## LithOTA

A lesson in proper antenna mast grounding-

http://lakeinthehills.patch.com/arti...-homes-in-lith 


The first house, with photos, is only a few hundred yards away from me. Being one of the only homes in my subdivision with an antenna, I have examined it, and I didn't see a ground wire headed down any side of the house.

I guess my ground install is up to snuff.


----------



## mikepier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/20740768
> 
> 
> A lesson in proper antenna mast grounding-
> 
> http://lakeinthehills.patch.com/arti...-homes-in-lith
> 
> 
> The first house, with photos, is only a few hundred yards away from me. Being one of the only homes in my subdivision with an antenna, I have examined it, and I didn't see a ground wire headed down any side of the house.
> 
> I guess my ground install is up to snuff.



Even if that antenna was grounded, and lessen the chances of a strike, it still would not have prevented that damage if lightning did strike. But just goes to show how important it is to ground your antenna.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mikepier* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> Even if that antenna was grounded, and lessen the chances of a strike, it still would not have prevented that damage if lightning did strike. But just goes to show how important it is to ground your antenna.



There are a lot of other things nearby that could've been struck- cell towers, some very tall power poles, a lightning-detection and warning system at the park, not to mention my own mast and a few others- all within a few hundred yards of the house that was hit.

I might just beef up my own grounding stuff, just to be safe.


----------



## LithOTA

Is this a CM 4248?


This antenna is on the home of an elderly in-law who has moved into assisted living. It looks to me like the original 4248, with extra wide reflector and diamond-shaped directors.

Can anyone confirm?


----------



## tylerSC

Yes that does appear to be the original CM4248 with the diamond shaped elements. Similar to the 43XG but the diamond elements are solid sheets of metal that, IMO, capture more signal than the hollow X shaped elements of the 43XG. Have tested them both and got better results with the 4248. Plus better build quality. They also made a 4257 which is comparable to the 91XG. Wish they still made them, but we all know that story. Anyway, I would hang on to the one you have there. Excellent UHF antenna, along with their original 4228 as well.


----------



## LithOTA

Thanks Tyler, I figured it was because other Yagis don't have that wide reflector. I'm going to post it in the AVS classifieds, with the provision that the buyer will have to climb up and get it. It's in western Illinois, right in Winegard's back yard.

They also have some kind of rotor controller- it will be delivered to me later today. I told the wife to bring anything antenna-related, as we want to help her Grandmother maximize her proceeds from the sale of her stuff.


Edit Sunday 11:45 CDT-

Ok, I got a whole goody bag worth of stuff- cables, a pair of RCA CECBs, a Radio Shack Preamp, and this Cornell-Dubilier HAM-II/CD44 rotator control box. I will list it on ebay.


----------



## LithOTA

If you could please open up the attached schematic, my crazy question makes some sense.


Tuner B gets the combined signals from Antennas A & B. So whille all of the signals are weakened, as long as they are strong enough, it's a sucessful combine. No questions about that.

But note how Tuner A gets signal from Antenna A only, since the splitter is upstream of the combiner. So here's the question-


Is Tuner A's signal compromised by the combining that occurs at Splitter B?

Or does Tuner A get the same signal as it would if Antenna B and Splitter B were taken out of the system?


Thank you for your help.

 

Combiner Schematic.pdf 44.2275390625k . file


----------



## 300ohm

Theres another fly in the ointment with the pictured scenario, the antennas are 90 degrees to each other.

So yes, tuner A's signal is compromised by the combining that occurs at Splitter B.


I cant really imagine a situation that would use the above scenario efficiently. If the signals were strong enough to permit combining two 90 degree opposing antennas, then just couple them at the mast, run the downlead, then split to the two tuners.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/20802134
> 
> 
> Theres another fly in the ointment with the pictured scenario, the antennas are 90 degrees to each other.
> 
> So yes, tuner A's signal is compromised by the combining that occurs at Splitter B.
> 
> 
> I cant really imagine a situation that would use the above scenario efficiently. If the signals were strong enough to permit combining two 90 degree opposing antennas, then just couple them at the mast, run the downlead, then split to the two tuners.



Thanks 300.

This was more theoretical than anything else, I just wondered if splitting off before the combine would isolate that tuner. Good to get the straight dope on these engineering issues.


----------



## holl_ands

Each Splitter generally provides 25-35+ of Isolation between the input ports (YMMV).


Hence the signals from Antenna B are reduced by about 50-70+ dB before they reach Tuner A.

Unless you have some REALLY strong signals coming in on Antenna B, there should be no problems.


----------



## 4HiMarks

I have a Channel Master 9521 rotator controller, and the antenna has become misaligned. When pointing North, the controller reads 170 degrees (almost completely backwards). I have tried re-syncing it according to the instructions, but either it is too far off or the sync isn't working, because it still reads 170. The manual states:



> Quote:
> After severe storms, or an extended period of use, the rotator may appear to position the antenna incorrectly.
> 
> First try pressing the SYNC key to re-synchronize the system. If this fails, the antenna or drive motor may be misaligned on the mast.You may either go to the antenna and re-orient it, or reprogram the control unit to correspond to the new antenna orientation.



But nowhere does it say *how* to reprogram the unit. I would really like to avoid climbing up on my roof if possible. What do I do to program it so that North is North?


----------



## DEEPFRINGEGUY




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *4HiMarks* /forum/post/20803496
> 
> 
> I have a Channel Master 9521 rotator controller, and the antenna has become misaligned. When pointing North, the controller reads 170 degrees (almost completely backwards). I have tried re-syncing it according to the instructions, but either it is too far off or the sync isn't working, because it still reads 170. The manual states:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But nowhere does it say *how* to reprogram the unit. I would really like to avoid climbing up on my roof if possible. What do I do to program it so that North is North?



Mine does that too, but it's because I have a bearing on it that is actually a larger radius... Anyway, what I do is I get the antenna pointed where I want it and then just unhook the wires on the rotor, then rotate the dial or the remote control (in my case) to the desired number, then hook the wires back up. It kind of fools it. It works well for me.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/20802527
> 
> 
> Each Splitter generally provides 25-35+ of Isolation between the input ports (YMMV).
> 
> 
> Hence the signals from Antenna B are reduced by about 50-70+ dB before they reach Tuner A.
> 
> Unless you have some REALLY strong signals coming in on Antenna B, there should be no problems.



Ahhh..so it is isolated somewhat, but still is affected by the combine. Thanks again.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DEEPFRINGEGUY* /forum/post/20803591
> 
> 
> Mine does that too, but it's because I have a bearing on it that is actually a larger radius... Anyway, what I do is I get the antenna pointed where I want it and then just unhook the wires on the rotor, then rotate the dial or the remote control (in my case) to the desired number, then hook the wires back up. It kind of fools it. It works well for me.



Great solution...we used to do something similar in land surveying, where we would "fool" the data computer into thinking it was at a particular elevation. Works great, as long as you can outsmart it!


If this doesn't work for his rotor, another way is to turn the antenna to 170 and tighten the clamps there. I use this trick to put the north stop at 180 instead of 0, as most of my stations are on the top half of the compass, and it's a pain to go 300 degrees around.


----------



## husco2000

I searched the avsforum, but didn't find any reviews or comments about the Radio Shack indoor amplified HDTV antenna (model 15-255). How does the antenna perform and compare with other models? I was told it was the replacement for 15-1892 (the UFO). With the current clearance price of $18, is it a good one to buy? Thanks!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Each Splitter generally provides 25-35+ of Isolation between the input ports (YMMV).



Good point, I forgot about the splitters isolation.


So in a best case scenario, tuner A suffers a 3.5 db loss from splitter A ( approx 45% of the signal from antenna A). Tuner B suffers a 3.5 db loss from splitter A, a .5 db minimum coupling loss from splitter B, and a 3.5 db loss from the antennas pointing in different directions, for about 8+ db total ( approx 15% of the signal from antennas A and B).


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I searched the avsforum, but didn't find any reviews or comments about the Radio Shack indoor amplified HDTV antenna (model 15-255). How does the antenna perform and compare with other models?



The best place for reviews on it is the RS product page http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...howFullReviews 


It rates 3.3 out of 5, based on 30 reviews.


Its an interesting looking thing, and it has a built in clock, heh. Its got some good points such as switchable gain. And one of the reviews says the inside uhf antenna rotates, interesting. Keep in mind its for local reception only. If its easy enough to return, I would give it a shot.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Good point, I forgot about the splitters isolation.
> 
> 
> So in a best case scenario, tuner A suffers a 3.5 db loss from splitter A ( approx 45% of the signal from antenna A). Tuner B suffers a 3.5 db loss from splitter A, a .5 db minimum coupling loss from splitter B, and a 3.5 db loss from the antennas pointing in different directions, for about 8+ db total ( approx 15% of the signal from antennas A and B).



That helps when you use civil-engineer friendly percentages. In the practical application of this scenario, antenna A's stations are all in the 0 to -5 NM range... 15% of that sure isn't much! The combine works, but not all the time, and not all the channels. But experimenting with it is fun, especially when a channel scan hits 80.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> That helps when you use civil-engineer friendly percentages.



Yeah well, I used Ken Nists decibel vs gain factor chart here :
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html 


to arrive at an estimate of what was delivered to each tuner.


Yes, 15% of the total possible gain arriving at tuner B is crap, heh. (or in your terms, 7.5% from each antenna)



> Quote:
> In the practical application of this scenario, antenna A's stations are all in the 0 to -5 NM range...



I think the NMs would have to be above 40 (at least 30) to get any practical use of this setup.

At 0 to -5 NM, youre DXing, and you cant afford any db's in loss.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/20805785
> 
> 
> At 0 to -5 NM, youre DXing, and you cant afford any db's in loss.



Oh, no, these are my local Milwaukees at 70 miles. After reading all of the great advice that you & the others have posted over the years, I've dialed things in so well that all 11 full-[pwer stations are 24/7 reliable. The 91XG and the ultra-low noise Kitztech have been a killer combination.


----------



## 4HiMarks




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LithOTA* /forum/post/20803696
> 
> 
> Great solution...we used to do something similar in land surveying, where we would "fool" the data computer into thinking it was at a particular elevation. Works great, as long as you can outsmart it!
> 
> 
> If this doesn't work for his rotor, another way is to turn the antenna to 170 and tighten the clamps there. I use this trick to put the north stop at 180 instead of 0, as most of my stations are on the top half of the compass, and it's a pain to go 300 degrees around.



One thing I worry about is synchronization between the motor and the controller. Say I set it so the current location is zero. It is actually almost 180 degrees off, so if I try to move the antenna to 360, what will happen? Will it bump up against the north stop halfway and then just grind away for a half rotation, leaving me in the same place I am now? Or can it go a full 360 from wherever the zero point is on the controller?


----------



## cpcat

It won't go

past the stop but it won't grind away either.

The controller will continue to count down

Or up until it reaches the entered number, though.

This means you'll need to keep resetting it

If you mistakenly try to rotate it past the stop.


It's better to have it aimed true for this reason,

but if that's all you can do it's better than

nothing.


----------



## Digital Rules

Why don't you just use the preset function of the 9521? (See page 5 of the manual) I have all my stations programmed in & don't really pay attention to the degree reading. This saves a lot of rotating time since most stations here range from northeast to north-northwest.


Physically orient the motor so the stop point is out of the way of your normal range of stations, then program presets into the controller.

 

9521man.pdf 103.8974609375k . file


----------



## audiodane

I was wondering what kind of small antenna structures exist for highly-directional 2.4GHz transmission/reception that also fall nicely within the DIY realm?


thanks!

..dane


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *audiodane* /forum/post/20862244
> 
> 
> I was wondering what kind of small antenna structures exist for highly-directional 2.4GHz transmission/reception that also fall nicely within the DIY realm?
> 
> 
> thanks!
> 
> ..dane



Pringles can antenna...


----------



## holl_ands

You'll find a BUNCH of different DIY 2.4 GHz Wi-Fi Antennas here:
http://www.seattlewireless.net/AntennaHowTo 
http://binarywolf.com/249/wifi_antennas.htm 
http://sites.google.com/site/weefipr...tennas-howto-1 [Includes Yagi]
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=138125 


Individual Wi-Fi antennas:
http://www.lecad.fs.uni-lj.si/~leon/...uad/index.html [Low Gain Bi-Quad]
http://www.cantenna.com/CantennaUserGuide.pdf [Commercial CanTenna]
http://www.cantenna.com/ [DIY Kit also available]
http://binarywolf.com/249/pringles_cantenna.htm [Pringles Can]
http://binarywolf.com/249/coffee_can_antenna.htm [Coffee Can - better than Pringles]
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show....php?p=1218749 [High Gain Vertical Rhombic]
http://helix.remco.tk/ [High Gain Helix]
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pi...ZjBmZTRkN2I0Mw [Very High Gain Curtain Quad]
http://home.comcast.net/~ross_anders...MHzAntenna.htm [Very High Gain Curtain Quad]


Are you going for the record????
http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/19/v...ord-237-miles/ 


PS: I've seen metal trash cans for as low as $15-30, suitable for DTV Can-Tenna.

It would be a lot smaller than fol. UHF 2-Bay "Extended Reflector":
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~wn17/We...20page%202.htm 


FWIW: Avoid fol. Lo-Gain "Beer Can" TV Antenna design...unless you're desperate:
http://diyfreetv.blogspot.com/2008/0...-beer-can.html


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I was wondering what kind of small antenna structures exist for highly-directional 2.4GHz transmission/reception that also fall nicely within the DIY realm?



A bi-quad mounted on an old primestar or dish network dish (seem to be cheap or free and very common to obtain) will give you more than 24+ dBi very directional.
http://www.trevormarshall.com/biquad.htm 


A usb wifi adapter in place of the biquad (with usb cable extention) with the dish will give a little less gain than that, maybe 20+ dBi, but is a dirt cheap no brainer wifi combo. The hardest part is aligning the adapter for max gain. If buying a usb wifi adapter, I would get one that has a SMA connector type antenna on it, for maximum performance and versatility.


A biquad with just a reflector with lips (I built one) will give you 10 dbi (stronger than most commercial wifi antennas) and a nice round radiation pattern, making aiming easy. (the radiation pattern in the above link is for the biquad with lips, not the combo with the dish. The combo radiation pattern looks more like a sharp flame)


I built mine to these optimum dimensions: http://www.lecad.fs.uni-lj.si/~leon/...uad/index.html 


The biggest problem with wifi antennas is the enormous cable and connection losses at 2.4 GHz, even with super low loss cable. And USB has cable limits of about 30 ft, but for wifi adapters, 15 ft or less might be the max.


----------



## HD_Dude

I live in a BIG condo building near National Cathedral in DC. Huge trees, other condos, Homeland Security - it's all here. I had tried the old RCA 'loop with rabbit ears' for OTA HD, with dismal results. With that antenna, the signal would pixelize, and disappear - even with WRC, which is less that 1/2 mile away. It nearly ruined our watching the Winter Olympics last year. So I reluctantly got cable.


Recently I had enough of the big cable bills so I cut off the cable, and thought I'd just watch shows on the internet. But, being a big fan of free OTA HD, I tried again - this time with a $55 Radio Shack 'Outdoor Amplified HDTV Antenna,' model number 15-257. What a difference!


It's advertised as an outdoor antenna, but I just sat it inside, on my window sill. It's not good looking, but not awful either - just a 12" by 6" gray block:










I face due east, right into a small forest.


With this antenna, I get all the Washington, DC High-Definition stations - WRC, WUSA, WJLA, WTTG, WDCA, WETA, and more. All with a signal strength of 80 - 98 using my Sony XBR's digital channel diagnostics. To my surprise, I even get WBAL in Baltimore, at a useable 72.


Once I saw it worked well, I split the signal three ways - one directly to the XBR, and one each to my two trusty TiVo S3's. All of them get reception perfectly...although the TiVo's don't 'see' the Baltimore station, while the Sony does.


I am flippin' amazed. That old RCA antenna came from Radio Shack too...I wasn't expecting much. In fact, when I bought the new one, I said to my daughter, 'I'll probably return it - indoor antennas never work very well.'


Later I said to her, "I am so glad I was wrong.'


I know antennas, esp. indoor ones in urban areas, are very specific to location, interference, building materials and more - but in my one case - this is good fit.


----------



## holl_ands

Go to www.tvfool.com , click on "On-line TV Maps" and enter your location (or just zipcode).

You can put the cursor on top of symbol indicating your location and drag it to a new location.

Check the box "Show lines pointing to each transmitter".


When done looking at the map, you can click on "Make Radar Plot".


There are over a DOZEN stations within 1-3.5 miles of National Cathedral.

So even with say 20 dB of attenuation due to the building and low-E glass, and

maybe another 20 dB of attenuation due to nearby buildings, and say 10 dB of

loss in a 2-Way Splitters & Cables, you should still have extremely strong signals.

[The amplifier in the antenna reduces the effect of that 10 dB down to under 1 dB.]


Your old antenna must be a dead short!!!!

Unless you are in some sort of "cone of silence", simply inserting an unfolded

paper clip (or better, a short piece of wire) into the center of the coax connector

on each box should bring in most stations.....


With such strong signal strengths, we usually recommend a NON-amplified antenna to

prevent "overload" (actually intermodulation noise prevents reception of weak stations).

You must have higher than usual attenuation from nearby buildings, reducing if

not completely avoiding the overload problem.


----------



## Dave Loudin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/20870152
> 
> 
> There are over a DOZEN stations within 1-3.5 miles of National Cathedral.
> 
> So even with say 20 dB of attenuation due to the building and low-E glass, and
> 
> maybe another 20 dB of attenuation due to nearby buildings, and say 10 dB of
> 
> loss in a 2-Way Splitters & Cables, you should still have extremely strong signals.
> 
> [The amplifier in the antenna reduces the effect of that 10 dB down to under 1 dB.]



There are also many FM stations co-located with the TV stations. You should absolutely be drowning in RF, which makes the use of any amplifier virtually impossible for the reasons holl_ands cites.


----------



## gbynum




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dave Loudin* /forum/post/20870410
> 
> 
> There are also many FM stations co-located with the TV stations. You should absolutely be drowning in RF, which makes the use of any amplifier virtually impossible for the reasons holl_ands cites.



Of course, given enough $$$, the technology DOES exist to filter out what you don't want and amplify what you do. Too many years ago, my employer made some cavity resonators allowing a transmitter 600 kHz away from a receiver to put 100 watts into the same antenna with minimal desensitization. They weren't cheap ... or small at 146 MHz. These were "band pass" designs, though, and for narrow-band-FM which is lots easier than for a (say) 10MHz wide (for tolerances) TV channel.


Could I notch an FM channel out ... yeah, and pretty effectively, even though it will be 200kHz wide vs. the 15 kHz or so with the F3E NBFM. Could I notch a multi-MHz TV signal out ... not for what I earn in a year. But how large is the pocketbook?


----------



## Merconium

I need some sage advice. I've just moved--only about 2.5mi NW from where I was--and I'm struggling to get my Philadelphia Fox (29.1) and ABC (6.1) affiliates to come in. Here's my TVFool after the move. 


I'm running the old-gen CM 4228 (UHF), a Winegard YA-6260 (low VHF), and a Winegard AP-8700 (amping both after joining). Because I have a channel in high and low VHF, I previously joined the signals with a conventional splitter (using my UVSJ ensured the high VHF that came off the 4228 got blocked).


Regardless of how I set it up, however, I really can't seem to get the above stations to come in. Amped, direct, etc.,; I can get sometimes 3-4 bars (out of 6, MediaCenter) for channel 6.1, but can't seem to get more than 2 for 29.1. Here are the channel maps:

6.1: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1097147/6_1.PNG 

29.1: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1097147/29_1.PNG 


Any suggestions? I may try putting the antenna on the ground tomorrow and see if that helps per a post a few pages back. If a new antenna is sure to do the trick, fine--it's about the cost of one month of FiOS. I've been off cable for six years now and I'm loathe to return.


----------



## LithOTA




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Merconium* /forum/post/20882546
> 
> 
> I need some sage advice. I've just moved--only about 2.5mi NW from where I was--and I'm struggling to get my Philadelphia Fox (29.1) and ABC (6.1) affiliates to come in. Here's my TVFool after the move.
> 
> 
> I'm running the old-gen CM 4228 (UHF), a Winegard YA-6260 (low VHF), and a Winegard AP-8700 (amping both after joining). Because I have a channel in high and low VHF, I previously joined the signals with a conventional splitter (using my UVSJ ensured the high VHF that came off the 4228 got blocked).
> 
> 
> Regardless of how I set it up, however, I really can't seem to get the above stations to come in. Amped, direct, etc.,; I can get sometimes 3-4 bars (out of 6, MediaCenter) for channel 6.1, but can't seem to get more than 2 for 29.1. Here are the channel maps:
> 
> 6.1: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1097147/6_1.PNG
> 
> 29.1: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1097147/29_1.PNG
> 
> 
> Any suggestions? I may try putting the antenna on the ground tomorrow and see if that helps per a post a few pages back. If a new antenna is sure to do the trick, fine--it's about the cost of one month of FiOS. I've been off cable for six years now and I'm loathe to return.



I can't help you with low-VHF (it's alien to me) but I bet I know what's wrong with 29.

Just a little bit below WTXF 29 on the TV Fool chart is WMPT PBS from Annapolis, also on RF 42. WTXF has only about 12 dB of noise margin over WMPT, which isn't much. On top of that, WMPT is 1-edge diffraction despite being 64 miles away, probably because most of the signal path is over the bay. WMPT's strong signal is stepping on WTXF's.

You need an antenna with better rear and side rejection. The 91XG excels at this, as I can even get stations with co-channels that are stronger than them. I'd also get a rotator, as you could receive most of Baltimore as well.


----------



## 300ohm

The antennas you have are more than enough for the signal strengths you have. But they are "edge" signals, so it will take some experimenting with heights, and maybe tilting upwards. It looks like you may have moved into more of a valley area than where you where previously.

Looking at the maps, it looks like youre near Iron Hill. They dont call it Iron Hill for nothing, heh. If you are, I would try pointing the antennas to the top of the hill.


Another thing is to first check the equipment, the preamp, the coax and the baluns. Baluns are easy to break.


Also try to locate the antenna that gives you a clear space, free of trees or other obstacles for at least 500 ft in front of the antenna if you can.


Im kind of surprised you have any problems with channel 6 given your equipment. Channel 29 I can understand more.

Ken Nists model for the YA-1026 channel 2 - 6 yagi shows a high mismatch loss of about 3.5 db on channel 6 between Raw Gain and Net Gain. That translates to a very high SWR of greater than 6.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 

For analog TV, thats not so bad. But for digital, that can be bad, basically distorting the 1's and the 0's. So while the gain is high, the signal isnt clean.

Since you have the YA-6260, the data could be different, but in general the old commercial vhf-low antennas had poor SWR on a lot of channels.

If you post detailed dimensions of the antenna, (detailed enough so anyone could build it from your description) I could model it.


Also, as youll note from Ken Nists data, using the CM4228 for channel 12 isnt a good idea unless the signal is super super strong.

(also note on the first graph, the Raw Gain for the old CM4228, AA, is not correct. Thats the Raw Gain graph for the new and de-improved CM4228, heh)


----------



## holl_ands

Below Gain Chart, click on "AA new Channel Master 4228HD 8-bay" to see correct charts for

new & old antennas. New CM-4228HD may be "de-improved" in some areas but old CM-4228

suffers from Gain loss on low UHF channels (unless it is modified).


----------



## Digital Rules

Looks like you have a 3000 watt FM station on 89.9 Mhz which is likely making reception of channel 6 challenging. I would check FM Fool & see if you are closer or are pointing the antenna more towards 89.9 at your new location. Another 1700 watt station on 91.3 appears to be very close as well.


You may need to experiment with the variable FM trap on the 8700 to attenuate those signals before they are amplified.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/20883925
> 
> 
> Looks like you have a 3000 watt FM station on 89.9 Mhz which is likely making reception of channel 6 challenging. I would check FM Fool & see if you are closer or are pointing the antenna more towards 89.9 at your new location. Another 1700 watt station on 91.3 appears to be very close as well.
> 
> 
> You may need to experiment with the variable FM trap on the 8700 to attenuate those signals before they are amplified.



The FM fool report for the coordinates shown on the TVfool report indicates that 91.3 would have a signal level of -22.2 dbm, 89.9 is -46.2 dbm. WPVI is -57.7 dbm. I'd tune the variable FM trap in the AP 8700 to 91.3 MHz.


----------



## gcd0865

Merconium:


If you're using a conventional splitter in reverse before your amplifier to join your CM 4228 and YA-6260 antennas, you might be losing too much signal from that splitter (-3.5 dB from each side) and/or introducing multipath into your system, because your antenna combining is not being done in a frequency-dividing way. Others can chime in on this, but I'm thinking that using either an HLSJ (which I believe would pass both UHF and VHF-high from your 4228 over the VHF-high side) or a channel 6 Jointenna might be the preferred (lower-loss (-0.5 dB) and frequency-dividing, multipath-preventing) way to combine your two antennas.

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=HLSJ 
http://www.channelmasterstore.com/Ch..._p/cm-0576.htm


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Looking at the maps, it looks like youre near Iron Hill. They dont call it Iron Hill for nothing, heh. If you are, I would try pointing the antennas to the top of the hill.



IIRC, that hill even affects compasses, so Im not sure how accurate the TVFool data can be if youre really close to it.

On a positive note, it could also possibly be turned into a benefit for some distant channel dxing.


----------



## Merconium

You guys are studs. Thank you so much for your help.


I spent more than a few hours on this today. I've kept the AP-8700's FM trap in--so, as I understand, it should be trapping all FM signals. I replaced all coax runs. I removed, cleaned, and tightened both baluns (a little tricky on the VHF--more in a sec).


Here's where I'm at:

1) lower placement yielded worse results. Tilting was generally irrelevant on the ground and on the roof.

2) I can get every Philly UHF I care about *save* WTXF 29.

3) I cannot, under any circumstances, get a signal on VHF WVPI 6. *This is a change from two days ago*. I don't know if the antenna took damage in the move/setup--some elements are just a little out of line--but hooked up directly, I can't get anything at all. Would folding in all the antenna elements and reseating them help? How delicate are these things?

I had a flawless signal for a year with it in the previous location.

4) I *can* get some stations, including a UHF version of ABC out of Baltimore. The PBS station out of there is also on UHF.


A few notes:
there are very few areas in Northern Delaware that would allow me to get a 500ft tree-free placement unless I build a 100ft tall tower. That's not a possibility on this property. Pointing directly into a treeline I can still get all my UHFs save WTXF 29 (42).
I don't think Iron Hill affects me. I'm aligning via an overlayed google maps compass and landmarks, and I can get 5/6 bars on every UHF station located in the same azimuth direction as those I can't get.
the VHF antenna's balun (the YA-6260) is the type with the little PCB card that grips the two sides of the antenna and outputs coax. I've removed and reseated it a few times, but that doesn't seem to affect the reception.
I have been using a conventional -3.5dB splitter as a combiner, but again, that worked fine for a year. Direct-to-preamp UHF doesn't get my WTXF 29 (UHF 42) nor can I get WVPI 6 (VHF 6). Using a USVJ doesn't do much for either.
 Here's the TVFool for the last address . You can see I had more 1edge and LOS, and about a +3dB advantage.


In the new location I'm much more directly opposite Baltimore. Indeed, I can pick up the WMAR ABC 2 (38 UHF) using the _backside_ of the 4228. At this point I may order a a 91XG--feeling that it is likely the direct alignment I now have with Baltimore that might be goofing the signal on 29 (UHF 42)--and see if that gets me WTXF from Philly, and then flip the 4228 toward Baltimore to pick up their ABC and PBS affiliates.


Would it make more sense to buy a big combo UHF/VHF like an HD8200U and aim it at Philly?


My thanks in advance!


----------



## gcd0865

Something unusual must be preventing you from receiving channel 6, since it should be fairly strong for you. Some possibilities/questions/tests that might help:


1 - Perhaps the YA-6260's PCB balun card is somehow damaged or isn't making a complete connection or is mounted backwards/reversed in the housing;


2 - Perhaps the FM trap on your AP-8700 amplifier is not sharp enough to prevent some degradation at the neighboring channel 6 frequency, such that turning it off might be better;


3 - Are there any phasing lines on your YA-6260 that are inadvertently touching each other when they should be 1/2" apart?


4 - Could either WPVI-6 or WTXF-29 temporarily be on reduced/backup power from Hurricane Irene?


5 - Have you tested each antenna individually while bypassing the amplifier (both the unit up at the antenna mast and the indoor power inserter near your tv)? [since this negates any shortcomings of using a splitter in reverse]


6 - If you rotate your 4228 to the southwest to point directly at WMPT (PBS) 42.1/22.1, what is that station's signal strength on your tv's signal meter? [to see if it's just simply way stronger than WTXF (FOX) 42.1/29.1 at your particular location, despite the TVFool prediction] And how does that compare to the signal strengths of all your other stations on your tv's signal meter, including ones from both Philly and Baltimore?


7 - When you are re-trying reception of these stations after making antenna/wiring changes, are you re-scanning each time or manually re-entering your real and/or virtual channel numbers with your tv's remote to check reception? [wondering how your tv's tuner acts with real vs. virtual manual channel entry vs. rescanning; wondering if you're manually entering in only virtual 29.1 and the tuner doesn't know yet to match it up with real 42.1, or maybe you're entering in real 42.1 and your tuner has that entry only matched up with virtual 22.1 (the Annapolis station you don't want) so it's not looking for WTXF on virtual 29.1 upon manual entry of real 42.1 (depending on your tv's tuner, you would then probably have to either re-scan or erase all memorized stations (by doing a scan with no antenna attached) and then re-enter real 42.1 manually)];


8 - Does your tv's on-screen menu enable you to view a listing of all channels scanned into memory? [to see if the saved station entries for real 42.1/virtual 29.1/virtual 22.1 (depending on how your tv's tuner lists them) read WTXF or WMPT]


9 - What is the minimum signal strength threshold on your tv's tuner for it to lock a signal without dropouts (wondering how strong your signals are relative to the minimum)?


10 - Do your signal strengths on your tv's signal meter generally jump around a lot (indicating multipath interference) or are they pretty steady?


11 - Is there anything (grounding block, power center, antenna switch, antenna splitter, etc.) located in the coax line between the amplifier's indoor power inserter and the amplifier's outdoor/mast unit that is not "power-passing" (does not allow power to properly pass to the outdoor/mast unit), such that you're not getting proper amplification?


12 - When you've been re-testing with different wiring arrangements, have you been unplugging your amplifier's indoor power inserter unit before each instance? [wondering if your amplifier could have been damaged by reconnecting when "hot", especially if done multiple times]


Maybe a few of these items will hit upon something helpful. Regarding your question about an HD8200U, it's certainly a good antenna, but it's very big. Looks like adding a rotor to your setup would get quite a few more stations regularly as well.


----------



## 300ohm

Hmmm, FWIW, I cant receive channel 29 (real 42) right now either. Ill keep checking later. Normally, its a strong station unless ships in the bay cross my path. My NM on channel 29 is 20.6 and on channel 6 its 22.3, though both are LOS. Channel 6 right now is fine and very strong.

Edit: Checked at 11 pm and 12:30 am, still no channel 29, so something unusual is going on. Channel 6 though, hasnt missed a pixel.

Tropo forecast now is low, but we could have some tropo starting Thursday.
http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo.html 



> Quote:
> the VHF antenna's balun (the YA-6260) is the type with the little PCB card that grips the two sides of the antenna and outputs coax. I've removed and reseated it a few times, but that doesn't seem to affect the reception.



It could be broken. Try a Phillips Outdoor balun from Walmart or Lowes. Not the best and units will vary, but much better than the Rat Shack ones at less cost.


Something is drastically wrong with you not getting channel 6. Your YA-6260 has more gain on channel 6 than my CM1221. (I can get channel 6, not always 100% steady, with a folding uhf SBGH that has negative net gain in the hundreds, heh.)

If you got rabbit ears, try using them for channel 6 as a test.



> Quote:
> Would it make more sense to buy a big combo UHF/VHF like an HD8200U and aim it at Philly?



Nope, unless you really must have WHYY channel 12. It could also help for 11 and 13 out of Baltimore. But if you want those channels, there are cheaper and better solutions.

Your old CM4228 has more uhf gain than the HD8200U or the 91XG on channels below 50.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Merconium* /forum/post/20886697
> 
> 
> 
> I've kept the AP-8700's FM trap in--so, as I understand, it should be trapping all FM signals.



No, the default trap setting does not attenuate nearly enough between 88.1 to about 92 Mhz, right where your questionable interference source(s) exist. The tunable feature of the trap can be adjusted to attenuate *right where it is needed* without sacrificing precious gain from the adjacent RF 6 frequencies.


----------



## Ken.F




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gcd0865* /forum/post/20886876
> 
> 
> 4 - Could either WPVI-6 or WTXF-29 temporarily be on reduced/backup power from Hurricane Irene?



I don't think they reduced power. I'm still getting a good strong signal from WPVI and WTXF at 23 miles north of Roxborough.


----------



## Ken.F

I spoke too soon. I'm getting a poor signal from WTXF this morning. WPVI is still strong.


----------



## 300ohm

At 1 pm, I'm now getting a strong signal from WTXF and WPVI is still strong. Ill keep checking.


At 4:30 pm, still a strong signal from both WTXF and WPVI.


At 10:30 pm, lost WTXF and WPVI is still strong.


I have noticed that since about 2009 on my TVFool data, that the signal level / NM on digital have been slowly decreasing on WTXF. Some of this is due to the changes in TVFool updates, but some of the other loss has to be from the station itself.

.


----------



## audiodane




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/20863235
> 
> 
> Pringles can antenna...





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/20863670
> 
> 
> You'll find a BUNCH of different DIY 2.4 GHz Wi-Fi Antennas here:
> http://www.seattlewireless.net/AntennaHowTo
> http://binarywolf.com/249/wifi_antennas.htm
> http://sites.google.com/site/weefipr...tennas-howto-1 [Includes Yagi]
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=138125
> 
> 
> Individual Wi-Fi antennas:
> http://www.lecad.fs.uni-lj.si/~leon/...uad/index.html [Low Gain Bi-Quad]
> http://www.cantenna.com/CantennaUserGuide.pdf [Commercial CanTenna]
> http://www.cantenna.com/ [DIY Kit also available]
> http://binarywolf.com/249/pringles_cantenna.htm [Pringles Can]
> http://binarywolf.com/249/coffee_can_antenna.htm [Coffee Can - better than Pringles]
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show....php?p=1218749 [High Gain Vertical Rhombic]
> http://helix.remco.tk/ [High Gain Helix]
> http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pi...ZjBmZTRkN2I0Mw [Very High Gain Curtain Quad]
> http://home.comcast.net/~ross_anders...MHzAntenna.htm [Very High Gain Curtain Quad]
> 
> 
> Are you going for the record????
> http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/19/v...ord-237-miles/
> 
> 
> PS: I've seen metal trash cans for as low as $15-30, suitable for DTV Can-Tenna.
> 
> It would be a lot smaller than fol. UHF 2-Bay "Extended Reflector":
> http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~wn17/We...20page%202.htm
> 
> 
> FWIW: Avoid fol. Lo-Gain "Beer Can" TV Antenna design...unless you're desperate:
> http://diyfreetv.blogspot.com/2008/0...-beer-can.html





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/20864190
> 
> 
> A bi-quad mounted on an old primestar or dish network dish (seem to be cheap or free and very common to obtain) will give you more than 24+ dBi very directional.
> http://www.trevormarshall.com/biquad.htm
> 
> 
> A usb wifi adapter in place of the biquad (with usb cable extention) with the dish will give a little less gain than that, maybe 20+ dBi, but is a dirt cheap no brainer wifi combo. The hardest part is aligning the adapter for max gain. If buying a usb wifi adapter, I would get one that has a SMA connector type antenna on it, for maximum performance and versatility.
> 
> 
> A biquad with just a reflector with lips (I built one) will give you 10 dbi (stronger than most commercial wifi antennas) and a nice round radiation pattern, making aiming easy. (the radiation pattern in the above link is for the biquad with lips, not the combo with the dish. The combo radiation pattern looks more like a sharp flame)
> 
> 
> I built mine to these optimum dimensions: http://www.lecad.fs.uni-lj.si/~leon/...uad/index.html
> 
> 
> The biggest problem with wifi antennas is the enormous cable and connection losses at 2.4 GHz, even with super low loss cable. And USB has cable limits of about 30 ft, but for wifi adapters, 15 ft or less might be the max.



Thanks everyone! I think I have three primary goals right now: small size, "sharp flame" radiation pattern, and weatherproof.


I like the reconstituted dishTV ideas. I will look into them and see if any of them look particularly weather resistant.


thanks!

..dane


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I like the reconstituted dishTV ideas. I will look into them and see if any of them look particularly weather resistant.



They all are. Mines been sitting outdoors near the ground for over two years and Im sure it was outdoors for at least 3 years before that. Not a bit of rust on it.

The dishes are made from steel, but they have a tough baked on painted coating of some type. As long as they arent severely scratched, they should resist rust for decades.

The dish mount is also adjustable and has nice markings of degrees on it, both for up and down and sideways. If nothing else, the mounting base could be used as an adjustable table saw jig, heh.


Weatherproofing the biquad or usb adapter is easy. Just pick the right size tupperware type snap shut soup container at Walmart or the Dollar Store.


----------



## Merconium

Sorry for being absent from the thread. I've been too busy to get back up there. I'll have a chance this afternoon to pickup a new balun and see what I can see. I really appreciate the help, guys.


Is there any clever way to adjust the FM trap without a scope besides trial and error?


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Merconium* /forum/post/20897485
> 
> 
> Is there any clever way to adjust the FM trap without a scope besides trial and error?



Do you have an older FM receiver with a signal strength meter?


----------



## Merconium




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/20897627
> 
> 
> Do you have an older FM receiver with a signal strength meter?



I don't. The only analog tuner I've got is a small portable radio. I wonder if I can remove the antenna and hook it up somehow to see when I lose reception in the offending range.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I wonder if I can remove the antenna and hook it up somehow to see when I lose reception in the offending range.



You could try that. The only problem is that hi gain antennas dont perform the same way close to the ground as they do high up. Maybe a portable TV on the roof within reach of the preamp ? Its OK if the portable TV is analog. FM interference will still show on channel 6 in various ways. Then tune to minimize it.

Also note that your body near the antenna will affect it. When tuning, step away a bit and observe the results.


(Generally old 5" portable battery TVs go for about $5 at flea markets now, like at New Castle Farmers market on the weekends. C or D batteries for them will cost more than that, so get the batteries at the $1 store, heh. Also, if the TV doesnt come with a 75 ohm connector, and just has the stupid ext ant jack, youll need to get the 1/8" to F connector adapter at Rat Shack. It also costs as much as the TV.)


----------



## kamorro

 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a3d554314f6c 


There's my TVFool report - looking to put an antenna in my attic, no towers or trees or anything blocking me, just looking for a height advantage. What's the best antenna to have for the attic to pick up the furthest distance? Thanks in advance!


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kamorro* /forum/post/20902136
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...81a3d554314f6c
> 
> 
> There's my TVFool report - looking to put an antenna in my attic, no towers or trees or anything blocking me, just looking for a height advantage. What's the best antenna to have for the attic to pick up the furthest distance? Thanks in advance!



You want Quad Cities or Peoria stations? Different requirements.


----------



## kamorro




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/20902147
> 
> 
> You want Quad Cities or Peoria stations? Different requirements.



There isn't an antenna that can get both? I guess my question is, what are the different requirements?


----------



## 300ohm

Is channel 4 (4.1) CBS a must have ? You have a stronger CBS 30 (31.1).


Other than channel 4, all your practical stations are uhf. If you want stations from both directions in the attic, you need 2 uhf antennas with two separate downleads into an A-B switch at the TV (unless you want to use a rotor).


Or if youre willing to mount high up outdoors, you could make a reflectorless SBGH or reflectorless 4 bay bowtie and get both directions with one simple antenna.


----------



## Merconium

In short, when I realized I was receiving a strong WMAR 2 (38 UHF) out of Baltimore plugged into a VHF antenna pointed at Philly, I knew I had a problem.










I pulled the 4228 off the mast, pointed the YA-6260 toward Philly, and could get my two VHF stations WPVI 6 (VHF 6) and WHYY 12 (VHF 12) with nearly perfect signal.


Simply holding the 4228 in hand and pointing it toward Philly, I could get all of my UHF channels, *except for WTXF Fox 29 (UHF 42).*


1) One of the changes in the new location is that I had to move the 4228 up the mast to clear the chimney. Although I think it was about 18" away, I suspect that's the source of the funny multicasting. It was previously about 3' away. I'm going to Home Depot today to get some conduit and see if I can add that to my 8' swedged mast to get a few more feet of separation. If push comes to shove I'll mount them on separate masts on opposite sides of the chimney.


2) I have an old Silver Sensor I'm going to point at Philly to see if I get anything for WTXF 29 (UHF 42). It's much more directional than the 4228 and might confirm/eliminate the FM station or the Baltimore UHF 42 as the cause of the blackout.


3) If that doesn't work, I'm going to play with the FM trap and see if I can get any change on WTXF.


Thanks again for all your help, guys. I'll keep you posted.


----------



## Digital Rules

Glad to hear your success with channel 6







Are you using the preamp?


It's doubtful that FM is affecting RF42. Interference from RF 42 in Maryland is the likely culprit & will require a highly directional antenna as you mentioned. Looks like it is almost exactly 180° from you which really presents a challenge.


If I were in you shoes I would get the 91-XG antenna. I would first try it with no amplification.


You may also need a rotator to find the sweet spot that offers the most rejection from the offending Maryland station.


----------



## Merconium

Yeah, with the preamp.


I suspect I'm going to end up having to buy the 91-XG.


I don't know I'm willing to drop the cash on a rotator. Most of our TV watching is timeshifted via MediaCenter, so unless there's a super-nifty USB controlled model that Media Center can instruct to move the antenna before recording (and, why not, say under $100), I'll just use the FRS radios and tweak until I get it right.


I take there's not much point in using the 4228 along with the 91XG, unless I point it toward Baltimore and run it on a separate line of coax to one of my tuner cards, correct?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> 1) One of the changes in the new location is that I had to move the 4228 up the mast to clear the chimney. Although I think it was about 18" away, I suspect that's the source of the funny multicasting. It was previously about 3' away.



Is it a heatilator type chimney ? If so, strapping the CM4228 right to it (chimney behind the CM4228) may solve your problems (and getting the YA-6260 higher). A lot of people see some big increases in gain with bowties or GHs strapped to heatilator type chimneys, and it would increase the F/B ratio a lot.



> Quote:
> so unless there's a super-nifty USB controlled model that Media Center can instruct to move the antenna before recording (and, why not, say under $100)



In another forum, a person called mlord built a usb automatic switchable antenna system for a mythTV setup, controlling about 4 antennas. If you dont count labor, the cost was pretty cheap, heh. AFAIK, no commercial units yet.



> Quote:
> unless I point it toward Baltimore and run it on a separate line of coax to one of my tuner cards, correct?



Yes, thats the way to do it, or with one tuner card, an A-B switch at the TV. Much faster than a 1 rpm rotor.


----------



## Menkatek

I'm visiting my mother for several days and would like to switch her from cable to OTA. She lives in Lower Westchester, NY.

Could anyone recommend an antenna from Amazon that I could try? I'd install it in the attic first and if not successful,

move it outside. The house is rather elevated and made of stone. Here are the tvfool results:



http://imgur.com/x7GbH.jpg%5B/IMG%5D



Thanks and appreciate any feedback!


----------



## arxaw

Depending on building/roofing materials, this one should work for her channels of interest.
http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751R-Ou...B5C/ref=sr_1_1 

It comes with its own J-mount bracket, is small and easy to install.

Aim it in a SW direction.


When scanning the TV for channels, make sure it's set to look for Over the Air digital antenna channels


----------



## A J




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Menkatek* /forum/post/20911095
> 
> 
> Could anyone recommend an antenna from Amazon that I could try? I'd install it in the attic first and if not successful,
> 
> move it outside.
> 
> 
> Thanks and appreciate any feedback!



You have a mix of UHF and High-VHF stations, so you definitely want an antenna able to receive all of them, not a UHF-only antenna. Around the start of the year I installed an antenna in my attic. My stations (VHF and UHF) range from 15 to 37 miles away. I use a passive splitter (no amplifier) to two TVs and it works great. I did find that positioning the antenna a few feet one way or the other made a world of difference in reception. I used the supplied C-clamp to mount the antenna on an old camera tripod, which made it easy to move around in the attic to find the hot spot.


The antenna I chose is:
http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-FV-HD...5316650&sr=1-1 


Here's a picture of it in my attic.


----------



## holl_ands

Due it's higher Gain and narrower beamwidth, the ANT-751 would be a better antenna inside

an attic where multipath reflections are bouncing all around.


----------



## Merconium

1) Tried strapping the 4228 to the chimney, but it still saw Baltimore stations and didn't get WTXF 29 (42).


2) Tried the Silver Sensor. What a good little antenna! It with my amp generated crystal-clear pictures from 37 mi away (albeit on the roof). Sadly, it also picked up stations from Baltimore, so I couldn't rule out the other UHF 42 broadcast as a problem with WTXF.


3) The AP-8700 has a stunningly granular FM trap. Plugged into my receiver, I could, so long as I tuned the screw to precisely that frequency, eliminate just that frequency. _1/100th of a turn and that station would come in._ There's no way, as I can see it, to eliminate FM across a broader (say 3MHz range). Unless you have an FM tower on your roof, the ordinary "FM Trap IN" setting is best for virtually all applications--and I say this after great practice. The "FM Trap IN" at least affected other stations--made them static-y, where the adjustable trap remained way too granular. Further, there's no chance I can eliminate 91.3 FM, as it is .8mi away and in my DTV antenna's path. I can get the station with quad RG6 coax wired to the receiver--no antenna. You can imagine what a high-gain antenna does. Thankfully, I don't think my WPVI reception is all that affected by a college radio station.



I ordered the 91-XG and an HLSJ. *Any tips/threads I should visit re: the 91-xg?
*

Thankfully, the first NFL game is on NBC, which I can get with an amp'd Silver Sensor! Thanks again for all your help!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Any tips/threads I should visit re: the 91-xg?



Google "antennahacks 91XG"


Unfortunately tbalister doesnt have all the hacks hes done on the 91XG posted yet on his antennahacks.com website. I modeled increasing the reflector size (2 pieces of 24" sq IIRC) for him, which he did and reported significant gain increase in real life testing. And with 1" X 2" mesh, youll increase the F/B ratio even more.


Ive also modeled another hack for the 91XG that increases gain on the new uhf channel range, but I dont recommend anyone doing it. That is to replace all the existing colinear X directors with 1 inch diameter tubing colinear directors of the same length as the X directors. It seems the X director shape benefits mostly the channels above 60. Like I said, I wouldnt do it, because the X directors look so cool, heh. But if building a 91XG clone from scratch, then I would certainly use the 1" fat directors. Of course, if you wanted to build a clone from scratch, you would want to build the rescaled for the new uhf range version, which AD says they wont produce.



> Quote:
> 1) Tried strapping the 4228 to the chimney, but it still saw Baltimore stations and didn't get WTXF 29 (42).



It is a heatilator type metal chimney, correct ? I still think youre influenced by Iron Hill. Which can be an advantage if you want Baltimore stations.

Did the Silver Sensor get WXTF ?



> Quote:
> ) The AP-8700 has a stunningly granular FM trap. Plugged into my receiver, I could, so long as I tuned the screw to precisely that frequency, eliminate just that frequency. 1/100th of a turn and that station would come in. There's no way, as I can see it, to eliminate FM across a broader (say 3MHz range). Unless you have an FM tower on your roof, the ordinary "FM Trap IN" setting is best for virtually all applications--and I say this after great practice. The "FM Trap IN" at least affected other stations--made them static-y, where the adjustable trap remained way too granular. Further, there's no chance I can eliminate 91.3 FM, as it is .8mi away and in my DTV antenna's path. I can get the station with quad RG6 coax wired to the receiver--no antenna.



Wow, that is sensitive on the AP-8700. Thanks for reporting on the testing.



> Quote:
> I can get the station with quad RG6 coax wired to the receiver--no antenna. You can imagine what a high-gain antenna does.



Are you talking about the FM station or Channel 6 ?


----------



## Menkatek

Thanks arxaw, AJ and holl_ands! I shall order an ANT 751 post-haste. You guys are the best.


----------



## Merconium




> Quote:
> It is a heatilator type metal chimney, correct ?



No, I guess not. It is a standard brick-and-mortar chimney.



> Quote:
> I still think youre influenced by Iron Hill. Which can be an advantage if you want Baltimore stations.



If I can get the Philly stations, I'll consider playing with Baltimore. Baby steps.



> Quote:
> Did the Silver Sensor get WXTF ?



No, but it was also getting some stations from Philly (2, UHF 38, for example, came in 5/6 bars).



> Quote:
> Are you talking about the FM station or Channel 6 ?



Sorry, I was talking about the FM station. Anyway, I can get 6 just fine with the YA-6260 with the 4228 off the mast.


I ordered a 91-XG and a HLSJ from Solid Signal (who took their sweet time shipping it and thus I can only hope it gets here before Sunday's NFL games).


I'll keep you guys posted about the 91-XG. Thanks again for all your help!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I ordered a 91-XG and a HLSJ from Solid Signal (who took their sweet time shipping it and thus I can only hope it gets here before Sunday's NFL games).



My experience with Solid Signal has been that they ship even faster than Newegg, which is also very quick. I think youll have it by Friday.










Some of the issues with WTXF 29 I think are the stations fault. The last couple of days, WTXF has been fine for me. And in the past, football transmissions have always been super strong, especially the commercials, heh.


Im lucky in that I can get FOX also from Salisbury, which carries the Eagles game if the Ravens or the Redskins dont play at the time.










And the backup is 94.1 WYSP FM, which is the "Home of the Eagles". I think they may voice stream the game too. Or you could follow the game on ESPN.com.



> Quote:
> and a HLSJ



Thats a High Low Signal Joiner, which joins a Vhf-Low antenna with a Vhf-Hi antenna and not what you need. You need a UVSJ, Uhf Vhf Signal Joiner.

You may be able to get one locally. IIRC, theres a electronic parts wholesaler (that specializes in TV and Monitor parts) located in that industrial park on route 72 near I-95, about across from Eastern Marine.


----------



## Ken.F




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/20918630
> 
> 
> And the backup is 94.1 WYSP FM, which is the "Home of the Eagles".



WYSP changed their format. It's a simulcast of WIP 610 AM now (sports talk). It would make sense for them to continue live Eagles game coverage but I don't know for sure if they will.


Edit: Apparently they still do Eagles games.


----------



## Merconium




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/20918630
> 
> 
> My experience with Solid Signal has been that they ship even faster than Newegg, which is also very quick. I think youll have it by Friday.



Yeah, I've used the before, but I was doubtful. So far, FedEx thinks you're right.











> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/20918630
> 
> 
> Thats a High Low Signal Joiner, which joins a Vhf-Low antenna with a Vhf-Hi antenna and not what you need. You need a UVSJ, Uhf Vhf Signal Joiner.
> 
> You may be able to get one locally.



I have a UVSJ, but it wipes out WHYY 12 from my 4228 (seeing as the 4228 had to go into the UHF side). That was why I'd just used a standard splitter despite the losses. It seems, however, that I can get WHYY with the VHF YA-6260, so perhaps a little more separation will prevent the multipath that was causing problems. I just added the HLSJ "in case" I can't figure out a clean way to get those VHF stations. My suspicion is that the 91-XG won't have the issue.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

If you use the HLSJ with the 91XG, you will likely loose channel 12 as the HLSJ will attenuate high-VHF by 20-30 dB on the low port.


In a pinch, you can always pick up a gold-plated UVSJ at Radio Shack, catalog number 15-2586.


----------



## Merconium

Well, the 91XG was a waste. It didn't do any better on WTXF, and frankly doesn't seem at all directional: I can still get Baltimore's WMAR 2 (38 UHF) while getting 6/6 bars on the other Philly stations.


Height, tilt, position on the roof--nothing seemed to matter.


It also can't get the Baltimore Fox station WBFF (not a surprise, since it has an Nm under 10). I guess no NFC opening day for me.


I'm going to call antennasdirect tomorrow and see if they have any brilliant tips, but based on what I've read elsewhere, WTXF is the signal most folks have trouble tuning, and I doubt I'll be an exception. Grrr.


----------



## Digital Rules

Have you tried on more than 1 tuner? Did you do a full re-scan?


----------



## Merconium

Yup, full rescan. Even reinstalled Windows 7 to ensure it was not the problem. Problem exists on each of the tuners (which, btw, are all different generations and act differently re: signal strength, but none sees more than 2 bars for WTXF).


I can get every station I should, and even some I really shouldn't, but I can't get WTXF.


I am going to see if I can get ahold of an engineer there tomorrow, too, and find out if they're running on less-than-normal power right now for some reason.


----------



## Digital Rules

Of the 2 different USB tuners I have tried, neither of them perform nearly as well as the many different TV's or converter boxes I have tired do. Both USB's have poor selectivity.


Can you borrow a standard TV or converter box you to see if RF 42 works any better?


----------



## arxaw

Merconium,

It's possible your computer may be giving off interference to the frequency WTXF is using. Try a standalone digital TV or digital TV tuner connected to your antenna coax, with *all* other nearby electronics (computers, routers, phones, modems, etc.) unplugged and turned off.


----------



## Merconium




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/20934252
> 
> 
> Of the 2 different USB tuners I have tried, neither of them perform nearly as well as the many different TV's or converter boxes I have tired do. Both USB's have poor selectivity.
> 
> 
> Can you borrow a standard TV or converter box you to see if RF 42 works any better?



These are all PCI/-e cards, and well-regarded ones at that. They're using the same radio systems that any of the TVs and converter boxes do (I think one is a Philips and at least another is the 5th gen LG tuner that appeared in many TVs in the last five years). I've never tried a USB tuner because I've never heard of anyone finding as good of success with them as with PC cards.


The key change here is that I moved 2.5 miles into a much more difficult reception area. I could get everything fine--even WTXF--in July, before the move, using this hardware. And I get everything _but WTXF_, now, with 90-100% signal strength (amp'd).


I can ask some friends about converter boxes, but virtually everyone I know is running an HDTV without one. Still, worth the try--what can it hurt? A good suggestion I hadn't thought of. Thanks.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/20934389
> 
> 
> Merconium,
> 
> It's possible your computer may be giving off interference to the frequency WTXF is using. Try a standalone digital TV or digital TV tuner connected to your antenna coax, with *all* other nearby electronics (computers, routers, phones, modems, etc.) unplugged and turned off.



If I can get a box or TV I'll try, but since I got WTXF for a year just fine using this setup, I just don't think there's a chance this is it.


----------



## Ken.F




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/20934252
> 
> 
> Of the 2 different USB tuners I have tried, neither of them perform nearly as well as the many different TV's or converter boxes I have tired do. Both USB's have poor selectivity.



Add the Hauppauge 2250 to that list. My TV tuners and CECBs are much better at locking in weak signals.


----------



## Merconium




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ken.F* /forum/post/20934613
> 
> 
> Add the Hauppauge 2250 to that list. My TV tuners and CECBs are much better at locking in weak signals.


 It seems like a lot of folks hate the 2250. Mine are all AverMedia cards, and I've just never had a problem with them.


I'll make an effort tomorrow to get a converter box or see if someone has a small HDTV I can borrow for an hour.


----------



## Ken.F




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Merconium* /forum/post/20934696
> 
> It seems like a lot of folks hate the 2250. Mine are all AverMedia cards, and I've just never had a problem with them.



I said about the same thing in that thread as this one.


----------



## gcd0865

Merconium:


Did you ever wipe your entire channel memory clean and then, without scanning, manually enter in 42.1? Still wondering if your tuner is acting in some way that inextricably ties real 42.1 to virtual 22.1, such that the signal you're getting is still WMPT from Annapolis from the backside of your antenna when pointed toward Philly. If you've already tried that, perhaps you are just located in a shadow/dead spot for WTXF (very frustrating, of course).


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Merconium* /forum/post/20934158
> 
> 
> Well, the 91XG was a waste. It didn't do any better on WTXF, and frankly doesn't seem at all directional: I can still get Baltimore's WMAR 2 (38 UHF) while getting 6/6 bars on the other Philly stations.
> 
> 
> Height, tilt, position on the roof--nothing seemed to matter.
> 
> 
> It also can't get the Baltimore Fox station WBFF (not a surprise, since it has an Nm under 10). I guess no NFC opening day for me.
> 
> 
> I'm going to call antennasdirect tomorrow and see if they have any brilliant tips, but based on what I've read elsewhere, WTXF is the signal most folks have trouble tuning, and I doubt I'll be an exception. Grrr.



If the station is broadcasting normally (ask tomorrow) and the both the 4228 and the 91XG cannot receive a UHF 42 signal from Roxborough, I can only offer two ideas: 1) RF interference on that channel as previously suggested, perhaps a multiple of a close FM station, or 2) You are getting a frequency-specific multi-path reflection that could be easily identified with a spectrum analyzer. Without an SA, all you can do is move the antenna elsewhere and try again. Perhaps it's due to a tree and the problem will resolve when the leaves fall.


You do have a co-channel 42 (WMPT from Annapolis) but both antennas you've tried should have a F/B of > 20 dB at that frequency which *ought* to keep it from interfering.


FWIW, the 91XG is about the *MOST* directional UHF antenna around.... Bars don't indicate received signal power, they usually indicate the *QUALITY*, that is the decodability of the incoming ATSC signal.


Don't have any further words of wisdom, wish I did...


----------



## 300ohm

Quote:

I am going to see if I can get ahold of an engineer there tomorrow, too, and find out if they're running on less-than-normal power right now for some reason.
FWIW, I watched the Eagles game on WTXF fine Sunday. I only had a little bit of pixelation and drop outs during the 3rd quarter, but there was a thunderstorm between me and the transmitter at that time. I was using my AverMedia Bravo Hybrid PCI-E card, which is definitely less sensitive than my Zenith/Insignia converter boxes, even though they all have 6th gen tuners. On the other hand, if the signal is that weak that the converter box makes a difference, then youll still have tons of dropouts and pixelation episodes, heh.

The Sansonic FT300A and Apex DT502 converter boxes give you both Signal Strength and Signal Quality meters displayed in numbers. These could be helpful in diagnosing your situation.

Quote:

Well, the 91XG was a waste. It didn't do any better on WTXF, and frankly doesn't seem at all directional: I can still get Baltimore's WMAR 2 (38 UHF) while getting 6/6 bars on the other Philly stations.
Get a 2' X 4' piece of 1/2" rat wire mesh, bend it in half so you have about 90 degrees and attach to the 91XG reflector with wire ties. (black UV resistant wire ties preferred, WalMart Auto Dept cheapest source). If you still get WMAR after that, that means youre definitely catching the Baltimore stations from a front reflection, from Iron Hill or something else.

Quote:

You do have a co-channel 42 (WMPT from Annapolis)
Yeah, that was a bad choice of channel assignments on the FCC's part. They really need to review that. A Maryland PBS repeater station potentially messing up FOX for a large portion of Delaware. There are plenty of other real numbers available.


----------



## Merconium

Quote:

Originally Posted by *gcd0865* 
Merconium:


Did you ever wipe your entire channel memory clean and then, without scanning, manually enter in 42.1? Still wondering if your tuner is acting in some way that inextricably ties real 42.1 to virtual 22.1, such that the signal you're getting is still WMPT from Annapolis from the backside of your antenna when pointed toward Philly. If you've already tried that, perhaps you are just located in a shadow/dead spot for WTXF (very frustrating, of course).
I have. I've told WMC to delete channels (previously) and then yesterday I even reinstalled Windows.


Now, whether it is trying to lock the wrong signal--that I don't know, and I don't know if there is any way at all to fix that.

Quote:

2) You are getting a frequency-specific multi-path reflection that could be easily identified with a spectrum analyzer. Without an SA, all you can do is move the antenna elsewhere and try again. Perhaps it's due to a tree and the problem will resolve when the leaves fall.
I've tried moving all over the roof--even to unrealistic mounting positions--to no avail. It's nothing if not wooded between my antenna and the broadcast tower.

Quote:

Get a 2' X 4' piece of 1/2" rat wire mesh, bend it in half so you have about 90 degrees and attach to the 91XG reflector with wire ties. (black UV resistant wire ties preferred, WalMart Auto Dept cheapest source). If you still get WMAR after that, that means youre definitely catching the Baltimore stations from a front reflection, from Iron Hill or something else.
Elsewhere I saw suggestions to wrap the reflector in foil (which didn't do anything for me). Another suggestion was to wrap a piece of cardboard in the foil and mount it behind the reflector. Would the mesh work better than these "solutions?" (I know quite little about antenna design.)


Thanks again for all your help!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Would the mesh work better than these "solutions?"



No it wouldnt, just more permanently, heh. Just wrapping the existing reflector with foil may not be enough, I think it needs to be bigger to positively block out the back signals. So try it with aluminum foil wrapped in a couple of 2 ft by 2 ft cardboard pieces to be sure. And maybe experiment with another foil wrapped piece on the side of it that faces towards Iron Hill.


The results of these experiments will tell you if youre catching Baltimore signals from the front on a reflected bounce. If thats true, Im not sure what can be done about it.



> Quote:
> FWIW, the 91XG is about the *MOST* directional UHF antenna around....



Pretty much so, yeah. Except for the old parabolas no longer sold.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Merconium* /forum/post/20934158
> 
> 
> Based on what I've read elsewhere, WTXF is the signal most folks have trouble tuning, and I doubt I'll be an exception. Grrr.



I continue to suspect that 91.3 FM is causing overload. A strong FM station can cause distortion in an amplifier which creates harmonics and intermodulation products. The seventh harmonic of 91.3 falls on 639.1 MHz which is in channel 42 (638-644). Your WPVI antenna will pick up FM very well.


Have you tried connecting the 91 XG directly to the tuner card without the VHF antennas connected?


----------



## Merconium




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/20938250
> 
> 
> I continue to suspect that 91.3 FM is causing overload. A strong FM station can cause distortion in an amplifier which creates harmonics and intermodulation products. The seventh harmonic of 91.3 falls on 639.1 MHz which is in channel 42 (638-644). Your WPVI antenna will pick up FM very well.
> 
> 
> Have you tried connecting the 91 XG directly to the tuner card without the VHF antennas connected?



Yes, I am currently running the UHF (91 XG or CM4228) all by itself. I stopped trying to run both UHF and VHF together in the hope of eliminating one more variable sometime last week.


----------



## ADTech

Next thing to try is an FM filter. Radio Shack 15-0024 should be available for around $7 locally. Install it before the first active device closest to the antenna, whether it be an amp or the tuner itself.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Merconium* /forum/post/20939188
> 
> 
> Yes, I am currently running the UHF (91 XG or CM4228) all by itself. I stopped trying to run both UHF and VHF together in the hope of eliminating one more variable sometime last week.



I also have a 4228 that would overload all preamps, even the HDP-269. I needed to filter out FM in addition to the UHF only antenna. In my case the FM station is off the back of the 4228 antenna. It's 1 mile away and 6 KW ERP.


I assume that the 91XG is better than the 4228.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADTech* /forum/post/20939587
> 
> 
> Next thing to try is an FM filter.



Good point. I believe the OP purchased an HLSJ which will make an excellent FM trap as well, especially at that frequency.


----------



## Merconium




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADTech* /forum/post/20939587
> 
> 
> Next thing to try is an FM filter. Radio Shack 15-0024 should be available for around $7 locally. Install it before the first active device closest to the antenna, whether it be an amp or the tuner itself.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/20939973
> 
> 
> Good point. I believe the OP purchased an HLSJ which will make an excellent FM trap as well, especially at that frequency.



I just tried the HLSJ as a trap, but to no avail. I've also tried playing with the AP-8700's FM trap but with similar success, detailed here. 


I did leave a message with WTXF's engineering dept. *Thanks to everyone for your continued help.*







You can imagine the frustration of having 20-30 hours invested in this and feeling more and more fatalistic about the enterprise.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Merconium* /forum/post/20940782
> 
> 
> I just tried the HLSJ as a trap, but to no avail. I've also tried playing with the AP-8700's FM trap but with similar success, detailed here.[/url]



In order to be effective, the HLSJ must be installed between the antenna and the preamp.


Your experience with the AP-8700 doesn't make sense. The fixed FM filter is in the circuit all the time. The switch simply adds the variable filter. Yes, the variable filter is designed to eliminate a single frequency, and that's what you really need. When you say that stations get noisy with the FM trap in, do you mean FM stations or TV stations?


Your finding that the 91XG is not that directional makes little sense. It could mean that you have so much multipath that you can't find the right aiming, or it may mean that there is an electrical problem in the balun, F connector, or the coax.


----------



## Merconium




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/20943344
> 
> 
> In order to be effective, the HLSJ must be installed between the antenna and the preamp.



Yup, that's how it's installed.



> Quote:
> Your experience with the AP-8700 doesn't make sense. The fixed FM filter is in the circuit all the time. The switch simply adds the variable filter. Yes, the variable filter is designed to eliminate a single frequency, and that's what you really need. When you say that stations get noisy with the FM trap in, do you mean FM stations or TV stations?



I don't think you're correct about the filter being in the circuit all the time. Their instructions are clear that if you want to receive FM you should switch to "FM TRAP OUT" (which is factory set to outside the FM range).


Having the FM trap set to "IN" clearly attenuated FM reception across the FM range--the radio stations got fuzzier. If I had a station tuned with a little fuzz and then switched the trap to "OUT" it cleared up. Winegard's instructions confirm my experience: the preamp is designed to allow FM to pass if you so choose. 



> Quote:
> Your finding that the 91XG is not that directional makes little sense. It could mean that you have so much multipath that you can't find the right aiming,



Here's the TVfool map for WMAR 2: http://db.tt/GOL5fgA 

How I'm getting a solid signal is quite beyond me.


Here's WTXF's: http://db.tt/Qj541im 


The aiming question is a good one. Iron Hill, a highly ferrous little hill that others have speculated is causing me problems, actually sits about 4.5mi south of me, between me and Baltimore. Perhaps it is responsible for making WMAR come in. If so, it might also have the same effect on the co-channel shared with WTXF. I don't think it is causing problems with WTXF directly, since it is to the back of the antenna when pointed to Philly, but who knows.



> Quote:
> or it may mean that there is an electrical problem in the balun, F connector, or the coax.



I had the same experience with the 4228. I replaced the balun with no change. Having the same experience with a brand-new 91XG (which I have to suppose has a proper balun, too), seems to eliminate that as a potential source of the problem.


I also swapped all of my coax lines with others, to no effect. Now, I could try that again--I've got tons of the stuff--but since I can get so many other stations, I'm not sure that's it. If I get some spare time this afternoon I can try again.


I've also tried simplifying the connection to the PC: bypassing the splitter there and connecting directly to a card. That didn't change the reception of WTXF.


Sigh.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Merconium* /forum/post/20943537
> 
> 
> Sigh.



Wow! You've already done everything that I would have.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Iron Hill, a highly ferrous little hill that others have speculated is causing me problems, actually sits about 4.5mi south of me, between me and Baltimore.



So youre north of Iron Hill. I was under the impression you were a bit south of it, heh. So youre off West Main Street in Newark ?

Theres a lot of complicated territory between you and the WTXF transmitter for a few miles from you in that direction. I think youll definately need to go higher than 16 ft. Play with TVFool heights. At some point you should see a big jump in gain on channel 42.


The good point is that you seem to be on a hill per the TVFool image.


----------



## Konrad2

> I did leave a message with WTXF's engineering dept. Thanks to everyone

> for your continued help. You can imagine the frustration of having

> 20-30 hours invested in this and feeling more and more fatalistic about

> the enterprise.


20-30 hours? You're just getting warmed up!


Ideas:


91 XG with extra directors


bandpass filter the one RF channel you want

CM Jointenna or better yet talk to tinlee.com


ferrite around coax just ahead of tuner

(and just ahead of amp if using one)


> "wrap the reflector in foil"

foil may too thin? Try aluminum flashing (indoors)

or heavy gauge wire mesh (outdoors)

A solid reflector will catch a lot of wind.

If you can secure it sufficiently, go for it.

See also: http://www.prism.gatech.edu/%7Ewn17/ 


quad shield coax, or Belden 1694A


If you can identify a source of reflections,

there is the two antenna trick. (hdtvprimer.com)


500 foot tower


----------



## AntAltMike

I've never had a situation in which an HLSJ was inadequate to attenuate FM overload. I am inclined to shy away from Winegard preamps in metropolitan situations (and near FM transmitters) because their cases are not shielded, so even if you adequately filter FM off the coax, the case might still leak in an excessive amount.


For several years now, I have been using any available garden variety cable TV 15dB amp as a preamp and putting HLSJs on their inputs when needed and have never encountered any overload problems.


----------



## rabbit73

*merconium*:


> Quote:
> based on what I've read elsewhere, WTXF is the signal most folks have trouble tuning, and I doubt I'll be an exception. Grrr.



That certainly is possible.


I have been looking for clues in previous posts:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Merconium* /forum/post/20934158
> 
> 
> Well, the 91XG was a waste. It didn't do any better on WTXF, and frankly doesn't seem at all directional:





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADTech* /forum/post/20936363
> 
> 
> Perhaps it's due to a tree and the problem will resolve when the leaves fall.
> 
> You do have a co-channel 42 (WMPT from Annapolis) but both antennas you've tried should have a F/B of > 20 dB at that frequency which *ought* to keep it from interfering.
> 
> FWIW, the 91XG is about the *MOST* directional UHF antenna around.... Bars don't indicate received signal power, they usually indicate the *QUALITY*, that is the decodability of the incoming ATSC signal.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/20943344
> 
> 
> Your finding that the 91XG is not that directional makes little sense. It could mean that you have so much multipath that you can't find the right aiming, or it may mean that there is an electrical problem in the balun, F connector, or the coax.



I might have missed it, but I have to ask:

*Is your coax grounded with a grounding block?* Unwanted signals can be picked up by the outside of the coax shield and travel either down to the tuner or up to the antenna if the shield isn't grounded.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/20944912
> 
> 
> ferrite around coax just ahead of tuner(and just ahead of amp if using one)



If the grounding isn't sufficient, wrap the coax around a ferrite toroid (FT-240-43) just before it enters the tuner, or place ferrite sleeves on the coax (the F connector needs to be off the end of the coax before the sleeves will fit).


An antenna that is supposed to have a very good F/B, which you need for your co-channel interference, can have that good F/B compromised if the unwanted co-channel signal can enter the feed point of the antenna on the coax shield. The fix is to place ferrite sleeves, acting as a choke, on the coax as close to the antenna feedpoint as possible:
http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/balun.htm


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/20944912
> 
> 
> 
> 1 bandpass filter the one RF channel you want
> 
> CM Jointenna or better yet talk to tinlee.com
> 
> 
> 2 If you can identify a source of reflections,
> 
> there is the two antenna trick. (hdtvprimer.com)
> 
> 
> 3 500 foot tower



These are also my choices for troubleshooting the problem.


You can buy a single filter from Blonder Tongue. http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...Hz-%28BPF-U%29 


I've also built them using this design software; http://www.wa4dsy.net/cgi-bin/idbpf


----------



## Konrad2

> place ferrite sleeves on the coax (the F connector needs to be off

> the end of the coax before the sleeves will fit)


There are split sleeves that do not require the F connector

to be off.


For example:


1/4"
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=110-450 

3/8"
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=110-452 

1/2"
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=110-454 


Ideally you want a snug fit without crushing the coax.

The 3/8" size is the best fit for most coax used for antennas.

The thicker RG11 might need the 1/2"?


> The fix is to place ferrite sleeves, acting as a choke,

> on the coax as close to the antenna feedpoint as possible


So we should put ferrite at the antenna end as well as the

tuner end? For antennas with a seperate 300-to-75 balun

should we put ferrite around the 300 Ohm wires (closer to

antenna feedpoint) or only around the coax just after the balun?


I got rid of FM interference from a then-analog RF10

with split ferrite similar to the 3/8" unit listed above

just before the tuner. The ferrite is inexpensive, so

if adding some at the antenna end will help at all

I'll do that as well.


----------



## terster

Hi,


I'm East Side Madison, WI.


I'm looking to add an outdoor antenna and am wondering if it's possible to pick up any Milwaukee stations?


Madison is 863' in elevation.


Milwaukee is at 634' in elevation and approx. 75 miles away. Madison is much higher and so I'd think it would be fairly easy to get those stations for there would be little line of sight blockage. I would think. From where the antenna would be installed, i have a straight shot to all of Milwaukee


I've read that several people in Madison can pick up Janesville, WI stations. Janesville is at 858 elevation 41 miles away. We are only a few feet higher than Janesville. From where the antenna would go, the corner of my house would partially block my view, even though it would be mounted outside.


I've read too, that several in Madison can also pick up Rockford, IL stations. Rockford is at 740' elevation and is 72 miles away. Same for Rockford... the antenna when pointed in that direction would be partially obstructed by my outside wall.


When I compare these 2 cities though to Milwaukee, it's comparable in distance but we are much higher up in elevation.


My questions are... can anyone recommend an outdoor antenna, amplifier, pre-amplifier, rotor, etc? A complete package?


I would be mounting this off to the SIDE of the house (not the roof) about 15' (feet) off the ground.


I found 2 possibilities from Denny's, Denny's EZ-HD antenna and his Double Decker, but I'm unable to find any reviews on his products. Both of these antenna's are, I believe, designed and built by his shop and not name brands. I know they have a great return policy but, it costs $$ to return, $$ I'd rather put into a good antenna.


I have done considerable reading and to be quite frank... I'm totally confused. There are so many different makes, models, rotor types, amplifier and preamplifier types, etc... that I just don't know what to do. Plus, seems there are a lot of opinions on both sides with most of these. I'm not finding any landslide opinions about what to go with or stay away from.


Can anyone please advise and provide recommendations which includes the entire package... from the mounting hardware (not roof mounted, probably a bracket across the eves or a J Mount or just a 10' pole straight up) to the antenna make/model as well as additional hardware (amp's/pre-amp's)?


I also don't know what the difference is between a PRE-Amplifier and a regular Amplifier. I found an explanation in another post, but found it confusing. Is there a time i would ever need both?


What I currently have is this I have 4 RG59 cables from and older sat. dish running to the location where the Antenna will go. All 4 runs terminate in one spot in the basement. In that same spot, I have 3 RG6 Quad Shield cables running to every room in the house (2 for sat. connections and one for either CATV or a future OTA antenna).


The run from where the antenna is, to the spot in the basement is approximately 40 feet. Maybe 50, but I think it's closer to 40. From that same spot, the LONGEST run in the house to the furthest room is 25 feet.


Immediately, I would be connecting the OTA antenna to 3 televisions. I will likely add a 4th TV in a few years when my son gets older.


Please advise on a full package/recommendations and/or whether you think this is even possible.


Here is my TVFOOL report that I've seen others post. This accounts, though, for just my local stuff and not stations 40 - 70 miles away: http: // [URL='http://www.tvfool.c...ion=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=14f35b306ba9d4 


Please advise if I have the right forum for this posting and then SPECIFIC recommendations for there are so many options, it literally comes down to... what do you think will work to pull in these distant channels... or is there nothing, stick with my immediate locals and be done with it?










Thanks!


T


----------



## arxaw

You should be able to easily get the channels in green on your TVFool report with one of these . Mount on a small J-mount or any other mast. No amp needed unless you're connecting to several TVs and experience low signal. Then, a multiport distribution amp _may_ be needed.


Per your TVFool report, it would be a waste of time, money, etc. to get any more antenna. You should reasonably expect to only get the channels shown in green at the top of your list. Virtually all shown in pink/red below those are too weak at your location.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I'm East Side Madison, WI.
> 
> 
> I'm looking to add an outdoor antenna and am wondering if it's possible to pick up any Milwaukee stations?



Not on a consistant basis, per your TVFool report. Those Milwaukee stations have negative NM in the teens and listed as Tropo. There just isnt enough signal in the air to get them consistantly, no matter the antenna.



> Quote:
> I also don’t know what the difference is between a PRE-Amplifier and a regular Amplifier. I found an explanation in another post, but found it confusing. Is there a time i would ever need both?



A preamplifier is an amplifier that is mounted up near the antenna. The power supply for it is in the house, and the preamp gets power thru the coax. The the preamp is preferred because less noise is amplified than thru an amp in the house. A preamp overcomes the losses after the antenna terminals, ie the coax, splitter, poor tuner etc losses. Most quality preamps have enough gain to overcome losses from a 100 ft of coax and a four way splitter.


You would generally only use a distribution amp with a preamp if you were distributing the signal to like around 8 TV sets or so.


For your local stations, they are so strong you have to be concerned about overloading the tuner. You could probably do fine with no preamp or amp and a four way splitter. Terminate the unused connection on the splitter with a 75 ohm terminator if youre only going to use 3 of the 4 connections for now.


----------



## Tower Guy

Quote:

Originally Posted by *terster* 
I'm looking to add an outdoor antenna and am wondering if it's possible to pick up any Milwaukee stations?
You're going to need a serious tower (at least 60') for any chance of stations outside of Madison.


----------



## rdoac

Am looking at putting a rooftop antenna up to pickup stations 60 odd miles away. Am not sure what type of Antenna I need. I can pick up local stations 5 - 7 Miles away, but we only have 4 HD stations and 3 sd sub channels, Madison would give me HD options on those as well as 5.1 audio for NBC.


TV Fool is:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...14f3c5fff170b0


----------



## rdoac

Sorry, had to add another post to add a url, then redited the previous message..


Tv Fool is:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...14f3c5fff170b0


----------



## arxaw

Yor stations of interest appear to be all UHF. This antenna should work well, aimed at 340° using a compass. It should also pick up your strong nearby chs, even though not aimed directly at them.

A low noise, high input preamp may also be needed.
http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-HDP-2...4C2/ref=sr_1_1


----------



## Konrad2

> it would be a waste of time, money, etc. to get any more antenna


More antenna will get more signal strength, less multipath

and less interference, resulting in more reliable reception.

The cost difference is rather small.


----------



## Merconium




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/20944912
> 
> 
> >
> 
> 20-30 hours? You're just getting warmed up!
> 
> 
> Ideas:
> 
> 
> 91 XG with extra directors
> 
> 
> bandpass filter the one RF channel you want
> 
> CM Jointenna or better yet talk to tinlee.com
> 
> 
> ferrite around coax just ahead of tuner
> 
> (and just ahead of amp if using one)
> 
> 
> > "wrap the reflector in foil"
> 
> foil may too thin? Try aluminum flashing (indoors)
> 
> or heavy gauge wire mesh (outdoors)
> 
> A solid reflector will catch a lot of wind.
> 
> If you can secure it sufficiently, go for it.
> 
> See also: http://www.prism.gatech.edu/%7Ewn17/
> 
> 
> quad shield coax, or Belden 1694A
> 
> 
> If you can identify a source of reflections,
> 
> there is the two antenna trick. (hdtvprimer.com)
> 
> 
> 500 foot tower



I know 20-30hr isn't much to a hobbyist, but the WAF of this venture is approaching zero as we get closer to the fall TV season. I wouldn't be surprised if a Comcast tech was here this weekend. Of course, if I could get this working, I could cancel cable.


You can imagine the bedroom reception of a 500ft tower.










I've been able to tweak the tilt (about 15 degrees did it, 17-19 was too much!) of the 91XG such that I can apparently block the signal from WMAR 2 (UHF 38, Baltimore) from the backside, but that didn't positively affect the reception of WTXF 29 (UHF 42, Philly). Little movements of the antenna tilt didn't change the reception of the latter.


Based on that, I'm simply not sure that there is a problem with the co-channel, unless the tower is just ever so slightly off from the WMAR transmitter. At my distance, however, I can't see the variation as being more than hyper-acute in terms of degrees.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/20945693
> 
> 
> I've never had a situation in which an HLSJ was inadequate to attenuate FM overload. I am inclined to shy away from Winegard preamps in metropolitan situations (and near FM transmitters) because their cases are not shielded, so even if you adequately filter FM off the coax, the case might still leak in an excessive amount.



I just tried putting the HLSJ after the amp: I could still get every channel but WTXF. I don't think this is an FM leak via the Wineguard amp. I'm also running quad-RG6.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/20947438
> 
> 
> :
> *Is your coax grounded with a grounding block?*
> 
> 
> If the grounding isn't sufficient, wrap the coax around a ferrite toroid (FT-240-43) just before it enters the tuner, or place ferrite sleeves on the coax (the F connector needs to be off the end of the coax before the sleeves will fit).



Yes, I'm grounded via a block.


Can such toroids be picked up locally--RadioShack?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/20948041
> 
> 
> These are also my choices for troubleshooting the problem.
> 
> 
> You can buy a single filter from Blonder Tongue. http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...Hz-%28BPF-U%29
> 
> 
> I've also built them using this design software; http://www.wa4dsy.net/cgi-bin/idbpf



Wouldn't a signal filter built around UHF 42 be subject to the same co-channel problems that I *might* be experiencing now? Don't both broadcast in the same frequency range? I've a childlike understanding of radio-frequency science, so maybe I'm missing something obvious.



Given that this setup worked fine a few miles away less than fifty days ago--and again, acknowledging I know nothing at all about the science of this subject--isn't the simplest answer that, for whatever reason, none of WTXF's radio waves are reaching this antenna's location in a strong enough fashion that I can receive them without extraordinary measures? Or is it simply impossible that I could have these issues _with just one channel_ unless there's something wrong on my end?


----------



## rdoac




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/20954154
> 
> 
> Yor stations of interest appear to be all UHF. This antenna should work well, aimed at 340° using a compass. It should also pick up your strong nearby chs, even though not aimed directly at them.
> 
> A low noise, high input preamp may also be needed.
> http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-HDP-2...4C2/ref=sr_1_1



Thanks..


Before posting, I had a quick look at this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amplified-Di...item3a6a66dcd2 


It's considerably cheaper than the Channel master but is the 125 miles just hype?


Do I need a preamp if I'm just running cable the height of the house and into a twin tuner hdhomerun? (In basement). Didn't know if the noise from the amp would be worth the noise reduction of the twin splitter (3db?) and the cable run?


----------



## Dave Loudin

Stay away from the ebay junk.


----------



## Tower Guy

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Merconium* 
Wouldn't a signal filter built around UHF 42 be subject to the same co-channel problems that I *might* be experiencing now?
Yes, that's true, a channel 42 filter will not eliminate cochannel interference.


We don't yet know for sure if the problem is a weak signal from WTXF, interference from a second channel 42, interference from another unidentified source, multipath from WTXF, or a combination of the above.


----------



## Digital Rules

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Merconium* 
Or is it simply impossible that I could have these issues _with just one channel_ unless there's something wrong on my end?
Did you ever have the opportunity to test with a real TV or converter box?


Did you ever actually try pointing the antenna towards Annapolis, MD & see if the other RF 42 (WMPT) will decode?


----------



## Konrad2

>> I've never had a situation in which an HLSJ was inadequate

>> to attenuate FM overload.


IIRC the HLSJ provide about 20-22 dB. I used to use 20 dB FM traps,

and one helped, but using 2 or more was better. So one HLSJ might

not be enough.


> Can such toroids be picked up locally--RadioShack?


I don't know about RadioShack, I avoid them these days.

Some local electronics stores carry suitable torroids.

The torroid rack at my nearby store disappeared, so

I switched to parts-express.com.


> Wouldn't a signal filter built around UHF 42 be subject

> to the same co-channel problems that I might be experiencing now?


A RF42 bandpass filter will not eliminate another station on

RF42, but it will eliminate nearly everything else that

might be causing interference and/or overload.


To combat co-channel you'll need to work on the antenna,

try and point a null at the undesired station, or shield

the antenna from it, or add gain at the desired station.

Or find a tuner that deals with co-channel better.


> none of WTXF's radio waves are reaching this antenna's location

> in a strong enough fashion that I can receive them without

> extraordinary measures?


Not necessarily. You might have enough WTXF signal if the

co-channel wasn't there. (or whatever the actual problem is)


Think of it as a ratio of desired signal (main WTXF signal)

to everything else (multipath, other TV and radio stations,

noise, etc.). You want to do things that maximise that ratio.


If the alternative is paying for cable, the one time expense of

things like a good tinlee filter and additional directors are easy

to justify. A tower would have a longer payback period.


----------



## goldrich

I'm not an engineer, but as a TV DXer for almost 50 years, my experience indicates that good reliable distant reception is all about the receive antenna's location. DTV reception can be very disappointing, or it can prove to be quite amazing.


In 1975 I helped a friend In Kokomo, IN install a 48 ft. tower with a Channel Master 4251 (7 ft. UHF parabolic) at the top (around 58 ft. to the very top of the parabolic). Picture of the discontinued 4251 at this site http://www.rocketroberts.com/cm4251/cm4251.htm The signal is being sent through about 110 ft. of RG6 coax with assistance from a Channel Master 7777 preamp. Now with DTV, he is able to watch WSBT, WSJV and WNIT, South Bend, IN stations @ 80-81 miles almost anytime. Another full-power South Bend station, WNDU, suffers from too much co-channel interference from WCLJ, Bloomington/Indianapolis @ 72 miles in the opposite direction and is often very difficult to receive/decode. WNDU does have a CP to increase its ERP in the near future, which should help. Here is the TV Fool report for this location http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...14f3d17c9cd5bc 


Another friend near Quincy, IL, out in the country and away from the city, is able to receive most of the full-power St. Louis stations (KPLR, KSDK, KDNL, KMOV and KTVI) @ 97-101 miles at least 70-80 % of the time with the discontinued Radio Shack U-100 (Yagi) @ 18 ft. AGL with a Channel Master 7777 preamp. Picture of the U-100 is also featured at this site http://www.rocketroberts.com/cm4251/cm4251.htm 

Here's the TV Fool report for this location http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...14f3e9af72bac5 


Depending upon your location, YMMV.


Steve


----------



## 300ohm

Quote:

It's considerably cheaper than the Channel master but is the 125 miles just hype?
More than just hype, pretty much fraud. Consistent UHF reception is limited to Line Of Sight or just very slightly beyond, no matter the antenna. Thats about 65 to 70 miles for most people.

During certain tropospheric ducting conditions, its not uncommon to receive stations from even farther away than 125 miles for a brief period, even with just plain $5 rabbit ears.


The antenna linked to on ebay is basically just a small local area reception antenna, with a built in preamp and rotor of questionable quality and durability. The gain figures come from the addition of the preamp gain figures, so its not comparable to the antenna gains quoted by reputable antenna manufacturers.



Heh, they cant even quote specs right.


"Impedance 30 +/- 3db"


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> isn't the simplest answer that, for whatever reason, none of WTXF's radio waves are reaching this antenna's location in a strong enough fashion that I can receive them without extraordinary measures?



Have you asked someone in the neighborhood, with an antenna, about their WTXF reception ?


Yes, its odd. I have 5.2 less NM, but LOS, and get WTXF more or less great. Your 2 edge reception is the most likely culprit.


Do you get the other 2 edge Philly stations fine, ie WPHL and WHYY ?


Do you get the other 2 Philly stations with less NM than WTXF, ie WGTW and WUVP ?


The Philly transmitters are all located within a small distance of each other.



Another option you have for the Eagles games, go out to a sports bar.







Still should be cheaper than cable, heh.


----------



## Merconium




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/20956069
> 
> 
> Have you asked someone in the neighborhood, with an antenna, about their WTXF reception ?



I took a walk last evening and looked for antennas. One I saw looked like it didn't have any coax. Another I spied did look hooked up, but he was quite a ways further up the hill. I didn't ring to ask what stations he got. Lots of Comcast/FiOS trucks roll here, and every third house has a dish.




> Quote:
> Do you get the other 2 edge Philly stations fine, ie WPHL and WHYY ?



I've actually got the 91XG inside the house right now (since I'm likely to return it), but these results are instructive: Two of my tuners get WPHL pretty well: 4 or 5 out of 6 bars, and all get WHYY at 5/6 or better (although it is VHF if that matters, off the Wineguard YA-6260).



> Quote:
> Do you get the other 2 Philly stations with less NM than WTXF, ie WGTW and WUVP ?



WGTW is 4/6, but the picture is a little unstable; in past experience that wouldn't hold up in a storm. WUVP is 4/6, but won't really lock.



> Quote:
> Another option you have for the Eagles games, go out to a sports bar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still should be cheaper than cable, heh.



My wife complained enough to Comcast to get them to add Limited Basic to our current cable internet for no charge. I may simply devote my dual tuner for cable (ClearQAM) and run the antenna into the other two (so I'd have two antenna and two cable recorders) so I can still get the uncompressed HD channels on the stations I do get. I can edit the sources in the guide so WMC records the right channel with the right tuner.


----------



## 300ohm

Youre good for today anyway. The Eagles game is on Sunday Night Football on channel 10 (real 34) tonight.


----------



## rdoac




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/20954154
> 
> 
> Yor stations of interest appear to be all UHF. This antenna should work well, aimed at 340° using a compass. It should also pick up your strong nearby chs, even though not aimed directly at them.
> 
> A low noise, high input preamp may also be needed.
> http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-HDP-2...4C2/ref=sr_1_1



Thanks for the help. I had to get a yagi type antenna in the end as no where locally stocked the channel master and I had a friend comming Saturday to help install. Ended up with an antenna from Radio Shack which was rated for 60miles or so and had good reviews (Antennacraft HBU33? - afair). Bought a tripod and mast too. The Mast was $15, the tripod 93cents as it was in the store for over ten years!


I set it up and pulled in the 60 mile+ stations with it sitting on my deck. In the morning they didn't work - but it was enough to reprogram my MythTV and hdhomerun setup. Setting it up on the roof was quite straighforward. According to a google map overlay, the wisconsin stations were exactly 90 degrees from my road, so alignment was pretty good.


Wisconsin stations work really well now, however, my local stations are not 100% reliable, probably as they're hitting the yagi at an angle and would be ghosting if it were analog. Am trying to work out if I can be bothered to stick a little antenna pointed at them on the roof of just keep Myth configured to use the Basic Cable connection for locals..


Thanks for the help. I am really happy with how it worked.


----------



## mstanl

A Houston update,

I have two Hdd500, On Sunday the one unit locked up and I powered it up and down a few times. It came back on and I lost all TV Guide and all channel listings, just No data, No grid.

The unit is OTA only no cable.


Well I did a full TVGuide reset since I had notthing to lose, The clock came back in a few

minutes but no listing data and no grid, I was think I need to do the take to Moms

who have cable to reset the unit. I did leave it set to 11.1 before I turned it off overnight.



Well checked it the next night and I had full TV Gide , Grid with new channels and listing

for all stations.

WOW.

Nice to see it updated from OTA only.


Mike


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> however, my local stations are not 100% reliable, probably as they're hitting the yagi at an angle and would be ghosting if it were analog.



Yeah, multipath (ghosting) combined with probable overloading. At 60+, 70+ NM for the locals, just use a small indoor antenna. Sticking even a little antenna on the roof for them may be too overpowering, unless you want to use attenuators.



> Quote:
> the tripod 93cents as it was in the store for over ten years!



I dont think the RS tripod was as low as 93 cents even 40 years ago, heh.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/20955589
> 
> 
> >> I've never had a situation in which an HLSJ was inadequate
> 
> >> to attenuate FM overload.
> 
> 
> IIRC the HLSJ provide about 20-22 dB. I used to use 20 dB FM traps,
> 
> and one helped, but using 2 or more was better. So one HLSJ might
> 
> not be enough.....



I just tested a garden variety HLSJ with no brand name on it, and it attenuated the FM band by 27dB. When Konrad used 20dB FM traps, were they the conventional 93-108 Mhz traps, as nearly all were? Those roll off between 88 and 93, and so many FM signals will be attenuated much less than 20dB by those traps, whereas the HLSJ attenuation is a flat over the entire band.


----------



## rdoac




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/20972712
> 
> 
> Yeah, multipath (ghosting) combined with probable overloading. At 60+, 70+ NM for the locals, just use a small indoor antenna. Sticking even a little antenna on the roof for them may be too overpowering, unless you want to use attenuators.



My first attempt at this failed. Then I tried again with a splitter up to 900mhz(? not sure if that was correct - but not the 2000mhz one I had) and it worked really well. I have a set top antenna in my daughter bedroom which I connected to the splitter along with the rooftop antenna. All seems well now..


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Merconium* /forum/post/20954560
> 
> 
> ...I just tried putting the HLSJ after the amp: I could still get every channel but WTXF. I don't think this is an FM leak via the Wineguard amp. ...



The HLSJ or any other filter must go BEFORE the amp, on its input side, to reduce intermodulation within the amplifier.


You might try wrapping the unshielded Winegard amplifier case in aluminum foil to see if that additional shielding helps.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> My first attempt at this failed. Then I tried again with a splitter up to 900mhz(? not sure if that was correct - but not the 2000mhz one I had) and it worked really well. I have a set top antenna in my daughter bedroom which I connected to the splitter along with the rooftop antenna. All seems well now..



Yeah, a two way splitter acts as a 3.5+ db attenuator and a four way one as a 7+ db attenuator. Terminate the unused terminals with a 75 ohm terminator.



> Quote:
> I have a set top antenna in my daughter bedroom which I connected to the splitter along with the rooftop antenna. All seems well now..



That setup also knocks gain from the distant stations. However, if their signals are strong enough, thats all you need.


----------



## Merconium




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/20974322
> 
> 
> The HLSJ or any other filter must go BEFORE the amp, on its input side, to reduce intermodulation within the amplifier.
> 
> 
> You might try wrapping the unshielded Winegard amplifier case in aluminum foil to see if that additional shielding helps.



Thanks: The HLSJ test was to see if the plastic amp box was letting in FM. I can try the foil wrap later this week.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Merconium* /forum/post/20975918
> 
> 
> Thanks: The HLSJ test was to see if the plastic amp box was letting in FM. I can try the foil wrap later this week.



But you also need to move the HLSJ to the input side, because once the FM has leaked into the circuit, however it gets there, the damage to the desired signals cannot be undone by filtering it off the output.


----------



## Merconium




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/20976867
> 
> 
> But you also need to move the HLSJ to the input side, because once the FM has leaked into the circuit, however it gets there, the damage to the desired signals cannot be undone by filtering it off the output.



Sorry I wasn't clear; I didn't note your name and so I assumed you'd been following this sorry saga.


I tried the HLSJ in the right spot (before the amp) last week and reported on it, but that didn't change my inability to get WTXF 29 (42 UHF) Philadelphia.


----------



## bloodyjack




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *woodgab* /forum/post/3631984
> 
> 
> This link is a good read for us folk:
> 
> 
> 
> In it, Mr. Putman provides a solution to multipath using two Yagi style antenna's. I didn't even think multipath could be a rural problem until Steve's post above (trees). My dropouts do correlate with wind.
> 
> 
> I have a CM 4228 coming and look forward to posting in this sticky. Great idea, Ken!
> 
> My sitch:
> 
> -5.5 miles from towers at 40 and 51 degrees carrying all desired UHF stations.
> 
> -Despite relative short distance a Silver Sensor can't give decent strength on frequencies 56 and 30 (WB, CBS)
> 
> -A current question would be what's better: A 150-200ft run of rg6 and a clear line of site, or a 50ft run with the threat of multipath and a less than clear line of site? I have a berm behind my house and could mount the, somewhat omni-directional, CM 4228 high up on a tree.



thanks for the link


----------



## MrBruce

I am looking for some decent feed back on combining two antennas to one down lead.


First my tvfool report.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...60b5ae88bf9131 


Now this report is based on an antenna height of 50 feet, and although my antenna is basically 25 feet above ground level, a few of the channels listed in the pink and purple rings come in at 70% signal strength, specially WUNI 29.1 Worcester MA, WBZ 30.1 Boston MA and WHDH 42.1 from Boston MA all come in around 60 % signal strength, so the TVfool is a bit incorrect.


I currently have two four bay home made antennas, one pointed at 288 degrees (west-north-west) for WTIC 31.1 Hartford and the other Hartford CT stations. WTIC comes in at 70 to 80 % signal strength, my weakest station is WVIT 35.1 comes in at 45 to 50 % signal strength.


The other antenna is roughly pointed between 39 degrees and 50 degrees for Boston and Providence R.I.


Each antenna has its own down feed, one is designed for both uhf and vhf, it is 8" whiskers spaced at 9", this points towards the north-east and picks up VHF 12.1 and 13.1 and various UHF stations.


The other antenna is 7" whiskers spaced at 5 1/2", it is mainly for UHF and helps guard against over load from VHF station WEDN 9.1 Norwich, which is located 4 miles away at 271 degrees.


At the moment, I am currently switching between each antennas coax on my indoor signal amplifier.


What I would like to do is design a setup that allows both antennas to be combined together so that all the channels will come in without switching anything.


The only co-channel I would experience is with WTIC 31.1 Hartford CT and WFXT 31.1 Boston MA, the DTV receivers I have are pretty good dealing with two different stations on the same RF frequency, because it lists both WTIC and WFXT in the channel line up after a scan is done, when I press 61, or 25 one station does not show up on the others branded channel number.


Keep in mind WTIC used to be on CH 61 and WFXT used to be on CH 25.


My quest is to set up an antenna distribution system such as an MATV system without the use of multiple receivers and transmitters such as how CATV does it.


I have seen distribution system amplifiers on the web from companies such as SolidSignal and was wondering how well they worked.


The one I would need would only be for UHF and VHF signals, not one that includes Dish network or Direct TV, so those types are not what I would need.


I need one that will combine each antenna without canceling out the other one and perhaps one that isolates the antennas as well, to prevent out-of-phase issues between the antennas.


On the output, I would like to feed at least 3 televisions with minimal signal loss.


Do those distribution amplifiers work? I know combining both antennas using a splitter caused signals at 50% signal strength to drop right out of sight.


I wish not to use any type of A/B switch if it is at all possible to do this another way.


Below is an older image showing both of my antennas, the one on the right now has a reflector, both antennas are currently outdoors on my roof attached to my chimney.


I can add an updated photo of those two antennas tomorrow when it is daylight.

Attachment 223537 



Thanks in advance for any suggestions or advice.



Bruce.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

The distribution amps work fine. The problem is that you can rarely combine signals from two such antenna systems without complications.


Using a reversed splitter works sometimes, but, it usually fails.



You could contact someone like Tin Lee to design and build a custom filter-combiner, but it would likely cost more than the rest of your system plus a new TV set.


----------



## holl_ands

Currently, you are stuck with separate antennas & an RF Switch.


RF Combiner Loss is AT LEAST 4 dB...which can not be recovered.

Combining AFTER separate Preamps doesn't overcome this loss, cuz their

internal noise ADDS together, resulting in 3 dB lower SNR.

Two Mast-Mounted Preamps (with separate cables) or one Preamp preceded

by an RF Combiner, CAN overcome most of the downlead and RF Splitter Losses,

which can be quite high, so it's certainly worth doing.


Since you only have ONE strong VHF and ONE strong UHF station, Overload

(Intermodulation Noise) won't be much of a problem (until a second UHF

transmitter comes on-line).

To prevent single channel overload problems, preceed a High Gain Preamp,

such as CM7775 (UHF Only) with a Ch26 single channel filter/attenuator.

Without Ch26 filter, a LOW-GAIN Preamp model must be used, e.g. W-G HDP-269

(UHF + VHF) or W-G AP-4700 (UHF + VHF Bypass). Might also want a Ch9 Filter.


====================================================

Your small 4-Bay (similar to CM4221) and WAY TOO SMALL "Babblin5" 4-Bay are

esp. losing Gain on the lower UHF channels.

Upgrading to a higher Gain model may or may not overcome the Combiner's 4+ dB loss:
http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweath...Data/Data.html 
http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweath...d%20tests.html 
http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweath...d%20Tests.html 


4nec2 Simulation Results:
http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweath...%20models.html 
http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweath...dels%20M8.html 
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl/m4swp 
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/compare 


Note that these 8-Bay and Super-4-Bay antennas ALSO pick up Hi-VHF, so you

might want to use an inexpensive UVSJ Combiner as a filter/attenuator

(use a 75-ohm terminator on the unused VHF port).


PS: dBi = dBd + 2.15


----------



## JoeM




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/20993364
> 
> 
> wrote: http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweath...Data/Data.html



Holl_ands, do you know who the guy is who runs the site ?


----------



## Konrad2

>>> I've never had a situation in which an HLSJ was inadequate

>>> to attenuate FM overload.

>>

>> IIRC the HLSJ provide about 20-22 dB. I used to use 20 dB FM traps,

>> and one helped, but using 2 or more was better. So one HLSJ might

>> not be enough.....

>

> I just tested a garden variety HLSJ with no brand name on it, and it

> attenuated the FM band by 27dB. When Konrad used 20dB FM traps, were

> they the conventional 93-108 Mhz traps, as nearly all were? Those roll

> off between 88 and 93, and so many FM signals will be attenuated much

> less than 20dB by those traps, whereas the HLSJ attenuation is a flat

> over the entire band.


Good point. I have traps marked 88 and some marked 95 MHz. I was probably

using the 95 for that experiment.


Also, there was (probably still is) a strong 88.3 FM that trashed the

audio on a then NTSC ch6. One 88 trap wasn't enough to kill the FM and

two 88 traps killed ch6. The 95 ones didn't help either (not a big

surprise). These were just cheap FM traps, nothing fancy from tinlee or

similar. It wasn't worth pursuing further since ch6 was going away.


Nice to hear that the HLSJ exceeds the specs. I no longer have any

VHF-LO stations that I care about, so I'm using multiple HLSJs to

kill everything below VHF-HI. And UVSJ filters on the UHF antenna

before combining the antennas. And LPF-216 and LPF-700 and ferrite.


----------



## Konrad2

> You might try wrapping the unshielded Winegard amplifier case in

> aluminum foil to see if that additional shielding helps.


Make sure that the foil doesn't make the amp overheat

before leaving it that way long term. Each 10 degree C

rise in temp reduces the expected life of semiconductors

by half.


I've seen interference come in through the power injector

for a preamp.


If you have "common mode" interference, a HLSJ or other

filter will not remove it. That's a job for ferrite.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Make sure that the foil doesn't make the amp overheat
> 
> before leaving it that way long term.



Hmm, since the Winegard case is dark colored, the aluminum foil may actually make it run cooler as long as the same ventilation is maintained.

Preamps are low wattage, so not a lot of internal heat is generated.


----------



## MrBruce




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/20993364
> 
> 
> To prevent single channel overload problems, preceed a High Gain Preamp,
> 
> such as CM7775 (UHF Only) with a Ch26 single channel filter/attenuator.



It appears this CM7775 model is no longer available on most reputable web sites.


One web site has this statement: *The Channel Master 7775 is no longer available for purchase.


It has been replaced by the Winegard AP-4800 Pre-Amplifier!!!!*

http://www.summitsource.com/product_...oducts_id=6912 


Okay so I try looking up that amplifier and see this:

*This item is no longer available for purchase.


It has been replaced by the AntennaCraft 10G202 Amplifier!!!!

*









http://www.summitsource.com/winegard...00-p-4661.html 


Then finally I get a product that exists :

http://www.summitsource.com/antennac...02-p-6053.html 



Any feed back on this amp?


Bruce.


----------



## 300ohm

Well, the CM-0068 preamp is still available, and has lower UHF noise. And it uses the reliable over-built CM-0747 power unit.

http://www.summitsource.com/channel-...sb-p-5721.html


----------



## Konrad2

>> Make sure that the foil doesn't make the amp overheat

>> before leaving it that way long term.

>

> Hmm, since the Winegard case is dark colored, the aluminum

> foil may actually make it run cooler as long as the same

> ventilation is maintained. Preamps are low wattage, so not

> a lot of internal heat is generated.


I once tried wrapping a preamp in aluminum foil and it

ran significantly warmer to the touch. Your mileage may vary.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JoeM* /forum/post/20994189
> 
> 
> Holl_ands, do you know who the guy is who runs the site ?



That is *mclapp*'s website for M2, M4, M8. Here is his latest post on this forum:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=19231072 

He is also very active on the Canadian forum for OTA & Antenna R&D:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=81 


He is in New York and I'm in California, so we haven't actually "met", other than on-line.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrBruce* /forum/post/20995739
> 
> *The Channel Master 7775 is no longer available for purchase.
> 
> It has been replaced by the Winegard AP-4800 Pre-Amplifier!!!!*
> http://www.summitsource.com/product_...oducts_id=6912
> 
> 
> Okay so I try looking up that amplifier and see this:
> *This item is no longer available for purchase.
> 
> It has been replaced by the AntennaCraft 10G202 Amplifier!!!!
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.summitsource.com/winegard...00-p-4661.html
> 
> 
> Then finally I get a product that exists :
> http://www.summitsource.com/antennac...02-p-6053.html
> 
> 
> Any feed back on this amp?
> 
> 
> Bruce.



Antennacraft doesn't provide any Overload specs, so we have NO CLUE how strong

the signals on the input can be before they start degrading weak signals reception.

I also would not recommend 29 dB Gain for VHF unless you were perhaps 100 miles

from any VHF transmitters (Aussie Outback???)...YIKES!!!!!


W-G AP4800 has 28 dB Gain for UHF and 0 dB Gain (Bypass) for VHF.

Google Product Search shows it being available from numerous sources,

incl. www.solidsignal.com , located in Maine, they may have lower shipping.


==================================================

CM-0068 overload specs are significantly worse than AP4800:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota 

See Preamp Comparison Chart - Rev A, which I updated to reflect W-G change

to HDP-269 Max Input Spec. Be sure to read NOTE at bottom re using TVFool

"Receive dBm" levels, including if Digital TV, ADD 7 dB to derive PEAK value.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

A minor detail, but Solid Signal is located in Novi, Michigan, a suburb of Detroit.


----------



## MrBruce

Okay so looking at the TvFool chart, the NMdb is basically the signal quality needed over the noise margin.


So lets say if we were to look at my TvFool report and go down the list and concentrate on the NM, WLNE DT 49.1 is at 2.6 db and the next one down the list is WSBE DT 21.1 at -1.0 db and so on down the list until it reaches WNJB DT 8.1 at -26.1.


So what I am actually attempting to do here is to get the signal to go above 1.0 to overcome the noise ratio, is this correct?


Where would I factor in the power ebm versus the NM?


What I see for my strongest channel is WHPX DT 26.1 at NM=65.4db and power dbm=-25.4. What is meant by the power dbm and why is it at minus 25.4?


Bruce.


----------



## rabbit73

I quote from tvfool at
www.tvfool.com/?option=com_content&task=view&id=57 



> Quote:
> *NM(dB)*
> 
> This is the predicted Noise Margin (NM) of each channel "in the air" at your location, specified in dB. You must add/subtract any gains/losses you get from your antenna, building penetration, amps, cables, splitters, and other factors present in your situation. Hypothetically speaking, you need to end up with an NM value above 0 in order to pick up a station.
> 
> *Pwr(dBm)*
> 
> This is the predicted signal power of each channel at your location, specified in dBm. Note that the relationship between NM and Pwr depends on the type of signal being detected. Analog stations require more power than an equivalent digital station to achieve the same level of NM.



Don't confuse NM with SNR (signal-to-noise ratio). The noise margin is the difference, in dB, between the signal in question and the minimum required signal (NM 0 dB). The minimum required signal includes the minimum SNR for that type of transmission which for 8VSB OTA signals is about 15.5 dB to be free of pixelation or picture freeze. TVfool assumes a standard noise level for all locations, but your local noise level at your site might be higher, requiring a stronger signal for reliable reception. This would mean less margin-to-dropout than predicted by measurement of the signal strength alone.


In order to make an estimate of the signal strength delivered to your tuner or preamp by the antenna (in the open air), you add the antenna gain (a plus added to a minus makes the minus less minus) to the dBm value given by tvfool. Most tuners will dropout a weak signal at about -84 dBm, so you need a signal stronger than that to obtain lock, and need a signal even stronger (about -74 dBm, allowing a safety factor of 10 dB) for reliable reception.


And to quote Andy Lee (creator of tvfool.com) from one of his earlier posts :


> Quote:
> Difference between SNR and NM
> 
> *SNR is generally defined as the ratio between desired signal power and the power of the noise floor*. The minimum required SNR for any communication system depends on the details of its design and signal structure. Modulation type, symbol rate, error correction codes, Turbo codes, Viterbi encoding, and dozens of other design considerations ultimately affect what SNR is needed to make the system work.
> 
> 
> For example, ATSC requires a theoretical minimum of about 15 dB SNR in order to get a TV picture. NTSC requires about 27 dB SNR (with analog, it's a very subjective matter to decide what is "watchable", but this is roughly where you get a picture with "some snow").
> 
> 
> There are other systems (like GPS) that can work even when the SNR values are negative. These signals have a very high "processing gain" that make it possible to decode it even when it is buried well below the noise floor. The desired signal can actually have less power than the ambient thermal noise and still be used.
> 
> *NM, on the other hand, is generally defined as the amount of signal relative to the minimum threshold for operation.* On a dB scale, the 0 dB point is at the theoretical boundary between working and not working. Positive dB numbers mean the system should work with some margin for error. Negative dB numbers mean the system should not work because the signal level is deficient by that many dB.
> 
> 
> If we used SNR to compare ATSC and NTSC, we'd have two different number scales to deal with. We'd have to mentally keep track of the minimum SNR thresholds for each signal type and do a lot of quick math in our heads.
> 
> 
> If we use NM to compare ATSC and NTSC, it's a lot easier to tell how well we're doing relative to the minimum operating thresholds. It also reduces some of the confusion caused by the differences in power levels. Many people believed that digital coverage was going to be worse than analog coverage because a lot of transmitters were broadcasting with significantly less power. However, less power does not mean less coverage.
> 
> 
> The average person will not know the different operating thresholds for each signal type, so providing numbers for field strength, dBm, SNR, or ERP often leads to increased confusion for some people.



Besides the above quote by Andy from his earlier post , there are also two excellent diagrams showing what happens to a TV signal on its way from the transmitter to your receiver.


Back to *MrBruce*:


> Quote:
> What I see for my strongest channel is WHPX DT 26.1 at NM=65.4db and power dbm=-25.4. What is meant by the power dbm and why is it at minus 25.4?



The dBm scale is a power scale. The reference level of 0 dBm is defined as a power of 1 mW (0.274 Vrms across 75 ohms, but the dBm scale is NOT a voltage scale). A signal of 0 dBm doesn't mean no signal, it means a signal that is the same strength as the reference level.


Signals stronger than the reference level have a plus sign (stated or implied). Signals weaker than the reference level have a minus sign. A signal of -25.4 dBm is considered a very strong signal that might overload a preamp.


----------



## kenglish

I used a commercial RFI Shielding Spray paint on the inner surface of a Blonder-Tongue "home" preamp, and it de-tuned everything so badly that it went in to oscillation.

Had to wire-brush it all out.


----------



## holl_ands

After correcting NM with Antenna Gain & various Losses, what remains is the FADE MARGIN.

Ideally, for long term reliability, you would like to have 10 dB or MORE of Fade Margin

to overcome Multipath Fading, Man-Made Noise, Clutter Loss, seasonal/daily signal

strength variations, etc. On the other hand, in some locations, on some days, signals

can be received when the Fade Margin is somewhat negative...but don't count on it....


Pwr & NM are STATISTICAL averages. Some locations may do significantly better (or worse),

esp. if Tropospheric Scatter propagation conditions are frequently encountered....YMMV....


================================================

If OVERLOAD CALCULATIONS (see signature below) permit, a Mast-Mounted Preamp

can significantly improve overall sensitivity by reducing contribution of post-Preamp

losses (incl TV Tuner Noise Figure): [Loss is reduced by the amount of Preamp Gain.]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Hc&hl=en#gid=0 
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=888368


----------



## MrBruce

In my humble opinion, the FCC has really made a mess of things when it comes to over the air broadcasts, makes you think they were in on some kind of a deal with Cable television and dish/direct TV to get people to give up with OTA and purchase their limited services.


Trust me when I say, before the digital transition, an on roof antenna brought in more broadcast channels than dish or cable did and no blackouts on out of market stations.


The quality of HDTV is fantastic, don't get wrong. However it should have been organized and put together so that if a station reached 75 miles away came in with a viewable snow free picture, it should be the case now.


Instead the FCC had TV stations lower their PEP and share frequencies with stations that are well under 200 miles apart.


In my area of Connecticut, the two markets that shared the same RF frequencies was Boston Mass Vs. New York City, Providence R.I. Vs. Philadelphia PA.


Now you have Boston Mass Vs. Hartford CT, Hartford CT Vs. New York City.


What a mess they have created and what it boils down to, is the OTA person gets so frustrated with the pixelization and drop-outs, they end up going back paying for cable or dish again.


Both cable and dish antenna are a joke, they have more premium channels than they do OTA channels and limit the number of same network affiliates, they also require you to rent their equipment by placing most of the HDTV channels on frequencies above 800 Mhz, where most home owned HDTV equipment does not tune to. Cable ready HDTV tuners usually stop at channel 99, cable places them on channels like 700 and above, dish requires their tuners because home entertainment systems are not dish or directTV ready!


What a monopoly this has become!


We used to get all of the Providence R.I, Boston and Connecticut stations here in my area of Connecticut.


Now WTNH 10.1 New Haven CT which used to be on VHF CH 8 is impossible to receive here and it only moved from 180-186 Mhz to 192-198 Mhz, a perfectly viewable station is now a zero signal reading in my area, not even a fluctuation on my RF meter above 0% on a good day when tropo happening.










I am curious how Cable television in my area can carry WCVB 20.1 Boston and WCCT 20.1 Hartford from the same tower and never get co-channel interference.


Both receiving aerials are on the same tower, yet they get no drop-outs or co-channel interference.


Is there anyone out there with a membership to this forum board who is a head-end tech at a cable company have any secrets to share with us?


Oh by the way, here is a picture showing both my 4 bay antennas up on my roof, that one facing you is pointed towards Hartford CT and the one on the left is pointed towards Boston and Rhode Island.

Attachment 223782 



I described both antennas in an earlier post, I am just curious about the center frequency for Mclapps 10 inch whiskers and 9 1/2 spacing?


Also I realize having wood as an insulator appears to be a bad idea, so I will be looking for some PVC to attach to the wood and add the whiskers to that, but how much db loss is estimated with wood and what is the primary factor for wood being a poor insulator?


Bruce.


----------



## L David Matheny




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrBruce* /forum/post/21004773
> 
> 
> In my humble opinion, the FCC has really made a mess of things when it comes to over the air broadcasts, makes you think they were in on some kind of a deal with Cable television and dish/direct TV to get people to give up with OTA and purchase their limited services.
> 
> 
> Trust me when I say, before the digital transition, an on roof antenna brought in more broadcast channels than dish or cable did and no blackouts on out of market stations.
> 
> 
> The quality of HDTV is fantastic, don't get wrong. However it should have been organized and put together so that if a station reached 75 miles away came in with a viewable snow free picture, it should be the case now.
> 
> 
> Instead the FCC had TV stations lower their PEP and share frequencies with stations that are well under 200 miles apart.



And now the FCC plans to finish their hatchet job on broadcasters by taking away even more channels and repacking everybody even tighter. There must be money changing hands, since nobody could really be that stupid.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *L David Matheny* /forum/post/21004942
> 
> 
> ...There must be money changing hands, since nobody could really be that stupid.



Didn't FCC's Genachowski used to work for Sprint?


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/20997449
> 
> 
> CM-0068 overload specs are significantly worse than AP4800:.



Someone would have to go back into the archives here to find it, but several years ago, I compared overloads of a similarly spec-ed Channel Master Spartan CM-0064 and the Winegard 23dB version of the 4700/4800 that they had made briefly and that had the same overload specs as their higher and lower gain models and the Channel Master outperformed it decisively.


Found it: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...38&postcount=9 



> Quote:
> I have an off-air antenna targeted at Baltimore and located between Baltimore and Washington,...The strongest signal developed by that antenna are my undesired analog channels 22 and 50 (25dBmV) 26 (24dBmV) and 20 (20dBmV). My undesired digital channels 48 and 50 are around 10dBmV, and everything else is weaker.
> 
> 
> I have to recover and process Baltimore channels 38 (-18dBmV) and 40 (-23dBmV) even though there is a strong, Washington channel 39 (+2dBmV off this same antenna) in between them. Now, I can tune unamplified channels 38 and 40 with my Radio Shack Accurian tuner and develop signal "strength" percentages of 80% on one and 75% on the other, but if I preamplify them using any Winegard product - even my AP4727, which is supposed to have the same output capability as the AP4700 and AP4800, but with just 23dB of gain - and then bandpass filter and attenuate the single channel outputs, those channel 38 and 40 signals have been decimated by the amplifier beyond recovery.
> 
> 
> Believe it or not, I get better performance from a Channel Master 0064DSB than from the Winegard that has identical, 23dB of UHF gain. Winegard's published overload ratings are a bad joke. Yet even with the 0064DSB, my analog channel 24 (about +4dBmV, coming off the antenna) suffers from some other analog picture sliding across it from left to right when it is amplified along with other analog signals that are a little over 20 dB stronger than it is.
> 
> 
> Until we get a better handle on the development of intermodulation byproducts, we are going to be frustrated in a lot of situations in which the rated maximum output of an amplifier is not exceeded yet it makes weak signals worse, because a byproduct that is substantially weaker than the carriers it is derived from can still overwhelm a significantly weaker channel, and often does.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> makes you think they were in on some kind of a deal with Cable television and dish/direct TV to get people to give up with OTA and purchase their limited services.



They have an eighty year tradition of doing stuff like that, so why do you expect them to change ?


----------



## kenglish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrBruce* /forum/post/21004773
> 
> 
> ......
> 
> Trust me when I say, before the digital transition, an on roof antenna brought in more broadcast channels than dish or cable did and no blackouts on out of market stations.
> 
> ...... However it should have been organized and put together so that if a station reached 75 miles away came in with a viewable snow free picture, it should be the case now.....
> 
> 
> Bruce.



The question is, what channels were those stations on BEFORE the transition?


We had to laugh at the FCC's "Loss of Service" maps when they came out, because they all pointed out the 3 low-band VHF stations in Salt Lake as "losing" viewership. What they failed to note was, VHF (especially "low-band") flows in to every nook and cranny...most of the "loss" areas were small canyons and shaded areas that really get nothing else. The more-populated ones were already getting service via translators, so the loss of the VHF direct signal didn't make any huge difference.

Also, with UHF channels, you can't expect reliable service beyond about 30-40 miles, typically (given an antenna height of 1000' at the sending end, and 20-30' at the receiver). That's just the physics of it,,,the curvature of the earth and the (slightly farther) Radio Horizon.

So, much of the "loss" was due to the change from VHF (especially "low-band") to UHF.

The FCC maps really compared apples to oranges, and blamed it on "digital".


----------



## kenglish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrBruce* /forum/post/21004773
> 
> 
> ......
> 
> I am curious how Cable television in my area can carry WCVB 20.1 Boston and WCCT 20.1 Hartford from the same tower and never get co-channel interference.
> 
> Both receiving aerials are on the same tower, yet they get no drop-outs or co-channel interference.
> 
> Is there anyone out there with a membership to this forum board who is a head-end tech at a cable company have any secrets to share with us?.....
> 
> Bruce.



Looks like the two stations are about 90-degrees from each other at Norwich. There are some pretty elaborate ways to do this, using yagi antennas and other, highly-directional antennas.

It's also possible to use shielding (buildings, etc), by carefully positioning the antennas...and, hoping nobody builds anything close by that would reflect an unwanted signal in to the antenna.


A very directional antenna is the Kathrein-Scala Paraflector:
http://www.kathrein-scala.com/catalog/PR-TV.pdf 

Note that it is single-channel, and it's beamwidth is narrowest toward the curved part of the reflector.


Lindsay also makes a full parabolic, single and paired:
http://www.lindsaybroadbandinc.com/P..._Parabolic.pdf 


Other antennas. like long Yagi's can be used:
http://www.lindsaybroadbandinc.com/P...UHF_Series.pdf 


And, arrays of antennas can be constructed. The spacing between them can be adjusted for nulls toward the "wrong" station:
http://www.tvcinc.com/headend-equipm...hf-quad-array/


----------



## rdoac




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrBruce* /forum/post/21004773
> 
> 
> I am curious how Cable television in my area can carry WCVB 20.1 Boston and WCCT 20.1 Hartford from the same tower and never get co-channel interference.
> 
> 
> Both receiving aerials are on the same tower, yet they get no drop-outs or co-channel interference.



Not sure about the specifics of your local channels, but ours are fed to Comcast via Fiber, they feed both the SD and HD versions which Comcast rebroadcast. Sometimes the local transmitter can go off air, but the cable feed is good and vice versa. Handling two different antenna positions then becomes no problem.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I described both antennas in an earlier post, I am just curious about the center frequency for Mclapps 10 inch whiskers and 9 1/2 spacing?



Thats going to peak somewhere around channels 40 - 45. But since the gain curve is upward scaling, it helps the lower channels too compared to shorter whiskers.



> Quote:
> Also I realize having wood as an insulator appears to be a bad idea, so I will be looking for some PVC to attach to the wood and add the whiskers to that, but how much db loss is estimated with wood and what is the primary factor for wood being a poor insulator?
> 
> 
> Bruce.



Wood absorbs moisture. Even dry wood could be 6% water. Impure water is a conductor. (distilled 100% pure H2O isnt though)


Youre catching a LOT of wind with those reflectors.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrBruce* /forum/post/21004773
> 
> 
> I am curious how Cable television in my area can carry WCVB 20.1 Boston and WCCT 20.1 Hartford from the same tower and never get co-channel interference.



I agree with rdoac.


Here is the TVfool report for the Metrocast headend.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...60b54a0a2eca0d 


To pick up WCVB on channel 20 reliably an antenna would need about 50 db rejection of WCCT on channel 20. While such an antenna can be designed on paper, the implementation is impractical.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrBruce* /forum/post/20999545
> 
> 
> Okay so looking at the TvFool chart, the NMdb is basically the signal quality needed over the noise margin.
> 
> 
> So lets say if we were to look at my TvFool report and go down the list and concentrate on the NM, WLNE DT 49.1 is at 2.6 db and the next one down the list is WSBE DT 21.1 at -1.0 db and so on down the list until it reaches WNJB DT 8.1 at -26.1.
> 
> 
> So what I am actually attempting to do here is to get the signal to go above 1.0 to overcome the noise ratio, is this correct?
> 
> 
> Where would I factor in the power ebm versus the NM?
> 
> 
> Bruce.



My last post about Noise Margin had a LOT of words. Maybe a diagram would be better:











Diagram is repeated in attachment in case the link to my image host is broken.


I quote wiki:


> Quote:
> In communications system engineering, noise margin is the ratio by which the signal exceeds the minimum acceptable amount. It is normally measured in decibels.
> 
> 
> In simple words, Noise margin(in circuits) is the amount of noise that a circuit can withstand. Noise margins are generally defined so that positive values ensure proper operation, and negative margins result in compromised operation, or perhaps outright failure.


 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noise_margin


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/21011384
> 
> 
> I agree with rdoac.
> 
> 
> Here is the TVfool report for the Metrocast headend.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...60b54a0a2eca0d
> 
> 
> To pick up WCVB on channel 20 reliably an antenna would need about 50 db rejection of WCCT on channel 20. While such an antenna can be designed on paper, the implementation is impractical.



It is also possible for Cable Headends to simply make arrangements to

use the DirecTV or Dishnet or C-Band feeds.....YIKES...that's WAY too EASY.....


----------



## MrBruce

The Comcast head end for the Norwich franchise is located on Plain Hill road, just south of Baltic Connecticut, also known as the town of Sprauge.


The tower was originally built back in the mid 1980's to pull in New York City stations WPIX VHF CH. 11 and WWOR VHF CH. 9 from Seacaucus N.J.


Both stations have since been removed when it was determined WWOR was getting co-channel interference from tropo and WPIX was eventually picked up off of a satellite feed, when WPIX became a super station, but brfore that WPIX was watchable about 70% of the time due to WBAL CH 11 from Baltimore MD causing tropo most of the time.


WPIX became an affiliate of WB and it was dropped because WCTX WB-59 was the local WB affiliate for our market area.


They also dropped WLVI 56 Boston because it was also an WB affiliate.


We also lost WSBK 38 Boston because it became an affiliate of UPN and so did WTXX (now called WCCT) Ch.20 from Hartford.


So as you can see, many channels were lost do to network affiliation.


I forget now how tall the head end tower is, they originally used telephone poles with various antennas perched on top until they get zoning permission to construct the tower they now use.


It took a lot of local meetings to get that tower put up to get those two stations from the New York city area added to our system.


I am guessing but it might be at least 300 foot maybe taller.


Now true we do get WCVB 5.1 Real 20.1, but they also black the station out occasionally with a computer generated memo stating the following, "Do to FCC regulations this station must be blacked out" this is because WTNH 8.1 real 10.1 from New Haven is our local television market ABC affiliate.


So what this means is WCVB Boston which is also ABC, is only carried (Not blacked out) when there are no scheduled network feeds from the ABC network.


Comcast in Norwich used to have 19 OTA stations in its line up.


Now it carries 12 OTA channels between channels 2 through 18 on their system as its basic package, now for each station that carries digital sub channels, Comcast has conveniently placed those channels up in the 700's requiring the rental of one of their SA digital converter boxes in order to view those sub channels.


In my opinion, if those channels are feed over the air for free, they should be included as part the bare basic channel package.


This would include channels such as This TV, US, Create and CPTV4u The last two channels are broad-casted on Norwich's WEDN 9.2 and 9.3.


WFSB and WVIT have subs carried up in the 700's as well, so you have to purchase the "digital preferred" package to get those subs that broadcast in 4.3 format!










By the way while on the subject of digital TV I am glad to see WJAR picked up MeTV and dropped RTV.


MeTv carries most of the same shows as RTV but, has a larger library than RTV in its broadcast schedule.


If you can get WJAR 51.2 from Providence check out their line-up.


Bruce.


----------



## MrBruce




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kenglish* /forum/post/21010786
> 
> 
> Looks like the two stations are about 90-degrees from each other at Norwich. There are some pretty elaborate ways to do this, using yagi antennas and other, highly-directional antennas.
> 
> It's also possible to use shielding (buildings, etc), by carefully positioning the antennas...and, hoping nobody builds anything close by that would reflect an unwanted signal in to the antenna.



I removed all of your links to save space, but it would be quite interesting to make an attempt to duplicate and build a home made version of those antennas you linked me to.


I am sure those antennas are for commercial purchase only and are more than likely quite expensive to purchase.


Although I have seen one antenna on solidsignal's web site listed for $700.00 and it was a single channel VHF antenna. Imagine a home owner buying something that expensive to receive one channel.










This particular one here is an interesting mass of aluminum and would be quite a project to copy.
http://www.kathrein-scala.com/catalog/PR-TV.pdf I am curious where the feed line attachs on this one.


Although this one would be a bit of a challenge as well: http://www.lindsaybroadbandinc.com/P..._Parabolic.pdf 


Just need a good supply house that sells materials suitable for making television antennas.


Bruce.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrBruce* /forum/post/21021605
> 
> 
> This particular one here is an interesting mass of aluminum and would be quite a project to copy.
> http://www.kathrein-scala.com/catalog/PR-TV.pdf I am curious where the feed line attachs on this one.



The feedline is attached on the back.


----------



## holl_ands

And from the back, the signal would be applied to the (second from front)

Active Dipole in the 2-element Yagi (forward most is Yagi's reflector).

The 2-Element Yagi points toward the large reflector.


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/21013961
> 
> 
> My post about Noise Margin had a LOT of words.



The situation is actually somewhat worse then that because you need to factor in receiver Noise Figure (NF). During testing the FCC put that at about 7 dB. So receive signal must be that much stronger to be decoded.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> And from the back, the signal would be applied to the (second from front)
> 
> Active Dipole in the 2-element Yagi (forward most is Yagi's reflector).
> 
> The 2-Element Yagi points toward the large reflector.



Yep.


The gain claim of 15.5 dBd at 470 mhz seems bogus to me. Its a 68" X 36" X 18" partial parabola. The 84" full parabola CM-4251 doesnt have gain that high on the lower uhf channels. (and from my CM-4251 modeling, CM's dBd is only a bit higher than dBi, but back then they were using advantageous test beds, heh)


Edit: Never mind, now I see its a SINGLE channel antenna that uses the same reflector for all uhf channels, and the driven element is customized for that one channel.

The upward scaling gain curve would lead one to believe its a broadband antenna, heh.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tschmidt* /forum/post/21023008
> 
> 
> The situation is actually somewhat worse then that because you need to factor in receiver Noise Figure (NF). During testing the FCC put that at about 7 dB. So receive signal must be that much stronger to be decoded.



Yes, that is especially true if you don't use a preamp.


However, if you do use a preamp at the antenna, the overall system NF is much better, because of the lower NF of the preamp. See the *Cascaded Noise Figure* discussion here:

*Signal Amplifiers (Amps, Preamps, Distro Amps) - See Chart in Post #1*
www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=42426 


and this post by *majortom* for 4 different scenarios:
www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=1218150&postcount=2446 


A preamp makes a big difference with my 50 ft coax downlead.


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/21023181
> 
> 
> However, if you do use a preamp at the antenna, the overall system NF is much better, because of the lower NF of the preamp.



Absolutely agree, a good low noise preamp dramatically reduces effective noise figure. Has the same effect as getting an antenna with more gain.


Just to be clear we are not talking about preamp gain. NF is the amount of noise added to the signal. The more noise the greater the receive signal strength needs to be to overcome it.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Has the same effect as getting an antenna with more gain.



I think a more apt way of putting it would be

"Has the same effect as getting an tuner with better sensitivity and less noise".


----------



## gbynum




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/21027826
> 
> 
> I think a more apt way of putting it would be
> 
> "Has the same effect as getting an tuner with better sensitivity and less noise".



I think the antenna analogy is more accurate IF, as should >
be, the low noise preamp is at the antenna before the 300ohm cable ... or 75ohm coax. There is a reason the LNA is at the antenna on dishes ...


----------



## rabbit73

Both a better antenna and a preamp can give more gain, but the antenna also improves the SNR (because of its directivity), while the preamp makes the SNR (at the preamp output) worse because its own noise (NF) is added.


The preamp makes up for its added noise because it improves the overall system NF because it is at the head-end (before downlead and splitter losses) which takes precedence in the total system NF calculation.


Or, as some people say it, the preamp NF (hopefully lower than the tuner NF), not the tuner NF, determines the total system NF.


Take another look at majortom's 4 examples at Google Docs where he gives the system NFs:
docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=CPbi9aYO&key=0Alk4YjsB3lG6dEVOT0d5eFZlZnVrN2poRTVIalpwT3c&hl=en&authkey=CPbi9aYO#


----------



## holl_ands

*CM4221HD (New) 4-Bay Bowtie with Balun Hack Modification:*


I posted 4nec2 simulation results at fol. webpage (incl. 4nec2 source file):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/mult...uhfnewcm4221hd 

Measurements were from information posted by and Balun Hack details

derived from a photo posted by (see results webpage for thread references).


UHF Raw Gain=12.2-15.3 dBi. UHF SWR(300) under 2.1.

UHF F/B Ratio=19-33 dB and UHF F/R Ratio=15-18 dB.


Hi-VHF Raw Gain=3-6.6 dBi (FORWARD), but HIGHER Hi-VHF Raw Gain=7.7-5.0 dBi

(TOWARDS REAR!). Hi-VHF SWR(300)=EXCESSIVE, esp. on lower Hi-VHF channels.


UHF Raw Gain:
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...Raw%20Gain.jpg 


UHF SWR (300-ohms):
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...nder%202.1.jpg 


Hi-VHF Raw Gain - Higher towards the REAR (Azi. = 270-deg):
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...0to%20REAR.jpg 


Hi-VHF SWR (300-ohms) - EXCESSIVE, esp. on lower channels:
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...0EXCESSIVE.jpg 


Although NEW, CM4221HD is still optimized for OLD UHF Band (up thru Ch69),

wasting Max Gain peak on channels that are no longer available for DTV.

UHF Raw Gain is about same as older CM4221 with improved UHF SWR on

lower channels....and Hi-VHF Raw Gain & SWR, such as it is, has been degraded....


Super-Sized-4-Bays have better Gain on New UHF Band (up thru Ch51) and

don't have a Hi-VHF Gain Reversal problem.


BTW: I don't think the NEC2 Engine has sufficient accuracy to model the

capacitive coupling problem caused by the Balun Feedlines being too close to

the vertical support beam in the "as-shipped" CM4221HD configuration.


----------



## rabbit73

*holl_ands*:


Thanks for doing the modeling on the new CM4221HD.


I turned the strips between the two inner bays over to make my measurements so that I could put them back the original way if needed for more measurements. The balun sticks out too far, especially with the added spacers. If I have more time, I will replace the bowed out strips with straight strips for the balun and repeat my measurements. I will, however, still raise the balun above the strips with spacers to maintain the balun feed at the midpoint where it should be. After the balun mods and removing the caps, the new 4221 beats the orig 4221. I don't think it is a good idea to modify the reflector, unless you are in a strong-signal market that requires a wider azimuth coverage so that you don't have to use a rotator.











More details about my tests of the CM4221HD here:
www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=1167870&postcount=221 


I still haven't figured out why removing the black plastic caps that cover the connections where the whiskers connect to the feedlines makes such a big difference, but my measurements say that it does. The only thing I can think of is that they contain a metallic compound for UV protection that acts like an electrostatic shield without having any electrical conductivity.


I noticed a similar property in metallic paints (that have suspended metallic particles) used on vehicles that have HF mobile antennas. It makes a big difference in the measured ground path loss, which is a series resistance in the antenna system from the vertical vehicle antenna > thru the air > thru the metallic paint > to the metal car body.


Yes, the CM design wastes a lot of potential gain at the low end. Is there a world market for an antenna used above CH 51 (698 MHz) or don't they know any better? Maybe they think that 2 or 3 dB at the low end doesn't matter, or maybe they didn't want to make a bigger antenna that would require a bigger box!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Is there a world market for an antenna used above CH 51 (698 MHz)



Yep, there still is until about 2020 ? El Salvador may not be switching until 2019, heh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital...ion_transition


----------



## holl_ands

Europe, Australia and many other countries have, until just recently, used UHF frequencies

up to 860 MHz, much higher than our old max of Ch69 (806 MHz). [Our new max is 698 MHz.]


In Europe, the 790-854 MHz band is being cleared of TV signals, making it available

for other purposes. They are also proceeding to allow White Space Devices to operate

in and amongst the remaining TV channels (sound familiar????):
http://www.inets.rwth-aachen.de/file...ite-Spaces.pdf 


See fol. Wiki article, although I can't vouch for whether it's up to date or not:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Televis...el_frequencies 

Note that many times the CENTER frequency is listed...and sometimes NOT.


FYI: Europe frequently uses "Band IV" and "Band V" to describe UHF Antennas,

but the definition of which frequencies lies in each band can vary quite a bit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band_IV 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band_V 


Ireland is no longer using Band I (Lo-VHF) and I suspect many others are

vacating this problematic band (unconfirmed). Band II is FM, which is planned to

be replaced by DAB (or equivalent) digital voice/music, now in Band III (Hi-VHF)

or in a much higher group in the L-Band (depending on the country).....or maybe

within the DVB-H (Handheld) digital streams.....I haven't kept track of all of the

zigs and zags in the various country discussions.....


So far, DAB broadcasts haven't been given sufficient capacity, so they are

overcompressed, sounding WORSE than FM Stereo:
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...b-h_vs_dmb.htm 


So current "state-of-the-art" suffers from the same complaints I have wrt

Internet Music and HD-Radio. I'll REALLY be disappointed when "they" phase

out (hard to get) SACD/DVD-A....and (not too long from now)....CD's....


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/21049587
> 
> 
> ..I haven't kept track of all of the
> 
> zigs and zags in the various country discussions.....
> 
> 
> So far, DAB broadcasts haven't been given sufficient capacity, so they are
> 
> overcompressed, sounding WORSE than FM Stereo
> 
> 
> So current "state-of-the-art" suffers from the same complaints I have wrt
> 
> Internet Music and HD-Radio. I'll REALLY be disappointed when "they" phase
> 
> out (hard to get) SACD/DVD-A....and (not too long from now)....CD's....



Zigs and Zags - That's for sure, even here in the US we can't seem toget spectrum management right. Reference the Light Squared trying to share frequencies with GPS fiasco. Sheesh - who came up with that idea and why is the Government even letting that be discussed. Someone powerful must have skin in that game based on the testimony I've heard before Congress lately. I work with guys doing GPS-OCX development, and the concerns coming from that community ... Wow, glad I work on a weather satellite program.










Gosh, I didn't even know SACD was still around - it seemed like the perfect media for classical music - my fav, maybe its more common in Europe? I love good audio and video. With my 42 in Panny plasma, there are times when I can tell the difference between something on Blu-Ray and "HD" broadcast OTA and/or the cable. Full bandwidth video is pretty amazing to see - especially nature videos.


Wouldn't it be nice to have an antenna test range with appropriate, calibrated test equipment? Then we could put these antennas through their paces and verify manufacturer claims. I can get my hands on a spectrum analyzer from work, but alas no signal generator. *sigh*.


Oh well.


----------



## A J

I'm trying to decide the best way to improve reception and would appreciate your suggestions. I have a small (but pretty good) antenna (picture below) in my attic with a passive 2-way splitter to TVs in the living room and bedroom. I receive 10 local stations (total 26 sub-channels) with distance to the towers ranging from 15 to 37 miles. And, I prefer to keep the antenna in the attic, rather than on the roof.


Only one station is indicating 100% signal strength on my CM-7000PAL. Four are 85-91% and five are 78-82%. Those five are normally solid but can be marginal, with occasional momentary pixelation during certain weather conditions.


If I remove the splitter the signal strength to the living room goes up another 4% to 5%.


Would I be better off by installing a larger antenna, a pre-amp for the existing antenna, or adding a second small antenna to avoid using a splitter (each TV would then have its own antenna)?


AJ


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A J* /forum/post/21079034
> 
> 
> Would I be better off by installing a larger antenna, a pre-amp for the existing antenna, or adding a second small antenna to avoid using a splitter (each TV would then have its own antenna)?
> 
> 
> AJ



It depends on the mix of VHF & UHF, the relative strength of the stations, plus the azimuth variation between them.


Because you already have the splitter in the attic a second antenna is easy.


To use a preamp get a one port power passing splitter instead of the one that you have now. That allows the power inserter to be behind one TV set.


----------



## holl_ands

Some comparisons...clearly a Preamp is better than Two Antennas...or even a Better Antenna(s):

*1) Current Configuration Assumptions: System Noise Figure = 15.4 dB.*

System NF = Simple Sum of Losses: Balun=1.5 dB, Balun-Splitter Coax=0.5 dB (10-ft RG-6),

Splitter=3.5 dB, Splitter-TV=2.7 dB (50-ft RG-6) & Tuner NF=7.2 dB ("typical CECB").

*2) Two Separate Antennas: System Noise Figure = 11.9 dB.*

System NF = Same as #1 except without Splitter Loss.

*3) If Add a Preamp:

CM-7777 (28 dB Gain): System Noise Figure = 4.4 dB.

W-G AP-4700 (19 dB Gain): System Noise Figure = 5.0 dB

W-G HDP-269 (12 dB Gain): System Noise Figure = 6.8 dB*

See "COMPARE System Noise Figure" & "DTV Preamp Signal Overload Calculator":
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota 


Which Preamp is appropriate for you can be determined using my OVERLOAD

Calculator Spread Sheet (see signature), presuming a guesstimate for

how much signal loss is due to attic location (I estimate 13 dB +/- 7 dB..or more).

"Satellite" RF Splitters are nearly always DC PASS on one or both ports.


High Gain CM-7777 is only suitable for RURAL locations...but attic loss might be enough...

W-G AP-4700 has lower Gain and NO Gain for VHF (VHF Gain is rarely needed).

W-G HDP-269 has the least Gain...and least likely to "overload".

"Overload" is actually desensitization on certain channels due to Intermodulation Noise...


As always, it helps if we could see your TVFool Results....


----------



## A J




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/21079555
> 
> 
> As always, it helps if we could see your TVFool Results....



Here's the TVFool. My antenna is about 12 ft AGL and aimed to 330 deg (after quite a bit of shifting position in the attic to find the sweet spot). I don't receive WNSC but, no big loss there since I get two other PBS stations. My antenna is high-vhf/uhf since WTVI is VHF. That station is also my TVGOS source.


AJ


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> ..clearly a Preamp is better than Two Antennas...



AJ, that should be rephrased as a QUALITY preamp is better than two antennas.


Some of the preamps/distribution amps commonly available locally at RS, Lowes, Home Depot, Walmart etc are noise making overload champs, causing more problems than they solve, heh.


The HDP-269 holl_ands mentioned above should be your least cost safest bet. The only thing bad Ive seen about it in the reviews is that the wall wart power supply may die too early.


----------



## A J




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/21081557
> 
> 
> AJ, that should be rephrased as a QUALITY preamp is better than two antennas.



Sounds like a preamp is the way to go, and fairly painless at less than forty bucks with free shipping from amazon for a couple of the model preamps mentioned.


My simple 2-way splitter will have to be replaced with one designed to pass through power to the preamp. Any suggestion for a brand or specific model (hopefully also carried by Amazon to simplify things).


AJ


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A J* /forum/post/21081766
> 
> 
> Sounds like a preamp is the way to go, and fairly painless at less than forty bucks with free shipping from amazon for a couple of the model preamps mentioned.
> 
> 
> My simple 2-way splitter will have to be replaced with one designed to pass through power to the preamp. Any suggestion for a brand or specific model (hopefully also carried by Amazon to simplify things).
> 
> 
> AJ



Since you only have ONE strong signal, W-G AP-4700 would probably provide slightly better,

performance....unfortunately, Amazon only stocks "similar" AP-8700 with 17 dB VHF Gain.

It's the same price and the extra VHF Gain should help rather than hurt Ch11 reception.


Although antennahacks did some comparison tests on 2-Way Combiners for Antennas,

I have not seen any tests for SAT 2-Way RF Splitters (typ. 2+ MHz).


Sat RF Splitters on Amazon:

Audiovox DH24SPR (aka RCA DH24SP, DC PASS Both Ports)

"2 GHZ" from (overpriced) Monster Cable (specs???)


Following high quality, affordable SAT RF Splitters are usually stocked by various

Home Supply stores:

RCA DH24SP (DC PASS on Both Ports) [maybe Amazon or Sears: photo is wrong]

GE 87623 (DC PASS on Both Ports) (Home Depot)


Searching will also reveal sources for fol. quality parts:

Steren 201-242 (DC PASS on Both Ports) (e.g. Summit Source, Sears)


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> GE 87623 (DC PASS on Both Ports) (Home Depot)



Yeah, I saw that at Home Depot. It really wasnt much more than their non pass thru splitters.


----------



## retiredengineer

I have been reading the posts about the definition of Noise Margin and I don't see any mention about the TV receiver bandwidth which would affect the SNR. Is it assumed that the TV receiver is using a matched filter when you do a noise margin calculation? I would assume a practical bandpass filter along with the mixers image rejection capability would slightly degrade the SNR.


----------



## rabbit73

Yes, you are correct in assuming that the receiver bandwidth affects the SNR. It needs to be wide enough for proper reception of the selected channel, but no wider.


If you mean the channel bandwidth inherent in the tuner design, that must meet certain specifications for desired to undesired signals as in this document:
*NTIA Coupon-Eligible Converter Box (CECB) Required Minimum Performance Specifications and Features*
edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2010/octqtr/47cfr301App1.htm 


Scroll down to sections 10 thru 12.


See also *ATSC Recommended Practice:

Receiver Performance Guidelines*
www.atsc.org/cms/index.php/standards/recommended-practices/180-a74-receiver-performance-guidelines 

which gives a link for this:
www.atsc.org/cms/standards/a_74-2010.pdf 


If mean an external bandpass filter, then it would not affect the SNR in the 6 MHz channel, but it would improve the overall SNR if the noise floor was high (an in VHF-lo) to cause an increase in noise adjacent to the received signal.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I have been reading the posts about the definition of Noise Margin and I don't see any mention about the TV receiver bandwidth which would affect the SNR.



If youre talking about TVFools NM, then no, it doesnt take into account defective or out of spec tuners.


----------



## retiredengineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/21085502
> 
> 
> If youre talking about TVFools NM, then no, it doesnt take into account defective or out of spec tuners.



I used to be a radar systems engineer and there were 4 terms in the radar range equation (K, T, B, and NF) that set the noise floor that limited how far away you could detect a target. I was just wondering how B, the noise bandwidth, affected the performance of the ATSC receiver.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *retiredengineer* /forum/post/21085752
> 
> 
> I used to be a radar systems engineer and there were 4 terms in the radar range equation (K, T, B, and NF) that set the noise floor that limited how far away you could detect a target. I was just wondering how B, the noise bandwidth, affected the performance of the ATSC receiver.



There are (at least) three Bandwidths of interest wrt Receiver Sensitivity.

*1) Transmitted Signal Bandwidth:* It is just over 5.38 MHz wide with a relatively FLAT

frequency response, except unmodulated Pilot Tone, with a higher spectral level:
http://www.axcera.com/downloads/tech...technote_9.pdf 
www2.rohde-schwarz.com/file_12015/7BM102_0E.pdf 

Note that "Nyquist" 5.38 MHz Bandwidth is TWICE the symbol rate frequency.


This barely fits within the 6 MHz allotted channel bandwidth with room for

frequency roll-off to the adjacent channel in the Transmit Mask Filter as well

as the Receive IF Filter. Of course, 6 MHz was chosen to maintain compatibility

with concurrent old Analog channel assignments. In former PAL/SECAM countries

they use 7 and 8 MHz channel bandwidths...and hence can use higher DTV data rates.


The fol. paper analyzes the many factors that can DEGRADE the Transmitted

(and Received) SNR:
http://www.broadcastpapers.com/white...in%208-VSB.pdf 

*2) RF Front End Bandwidth:* Typically 3 dB down by 20-30 MHz from Center Freq,

with a mild slope across many adjacent channels....many tuners showed

susceptibility 14-15 channels away due to insufficient image rejection.

A strong signal on nearby channels will desensitize the desired channel

due to the Automatic Gain Control (AGC) reducing RF (and IF) Gain to prevent

the nearby signal from overloading the tuner....


Double Conversion Tuners "typically" do not use Tuned RF Amplifier stages,

relying completely on the bandwidth rejection in the First & Second IF Stages.

*3) "Detection" Bandwidth:* This is what is usually used to determine the output SNR.

In a DTV Receiver this is usually the Bandwidth of the IF Amplifier, although some

ATSC Decoder Chips are designed for use in a Direct Downconversion to Baseband

type Receiver, where the final, even narrower band Digital Filter is within the

Chip....in which case it will be closer to 5.38 MHz.


I haven't yet found the right document re how to "correctly" measure SNR,

but I THINK that they ignore the 0.3 dB of (average) power in the Pilot Tone,

so the averaged spectral level of the signal can be compared to the averaged

spectral level of the Noise Generator when setting SNR for a test run.


----------



## retiredengineer

@holl_ands, thank you for your detailed response. I have placed a copy of it in my ATSC folder.


----------



## silvercity22

FIXED LINK


Really would appreciate some advice here:


A friend would like to install an OTA antenna at his chalet (near Rawdon Quebec)....here are the tvfool results:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...60b5bb8daf5ac0 


Would a Channel Master 4221 antenna be good enough or are there better antennas out there? Price really isn't an issue...catching a few local channels is.


Thanks for your help.


----------



## arxaw

silvercity,

TVFool link does not work.


----------



## silvercity22

fixed it...thanks


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Would a Channel Master 4221 antenna be good enough or are there better antennas out there?



The CM-4221 is a uhf-only antenna. While channels 2 and 6 are probably strong enough to get on the 4221, some of the vhf-hi channels arent. (Unless he put a wide 32" reflector on the 4221, then he may be OK.)


A Winegard antenna in the HD 769 series would be good, assuming channel 2 and 6 are as strong as TVFool reports, with no special problems. Otherwise, he'll need a big combo antenna.


----------



## arxaw

Is your friend interested in both analog and digital channels or just digital?


----------



## silvercity22




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21098851
> 
> 
> Is your friend interested in both analog and digital channels or just digital?





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/21098262
> 
> 
> The CM-4221 is a uhf-only antenna. While channels 2 and 6 are probably strong enough to get on the 4221, some of the vhf-hi channels arent. (Unless he put a wide 32" reflector on the 4221, then he may be OK.)
> 
> 
> A Winegard antenna in the HD 769 series would be good, assuming channel 2 and 6 are as strong as TVFool reports, with no special problems. Otherwise, he'll need a big combo antenna.



The channels in Canada recently changed and I believe everything is broadcast in digital...which is why his rabbit ears don't work anymore. Unless I'm wrong...in that case yes he wants analog and digital.


His main goal is to get the local channels (cbc, ctv, global) and if lucky a few from the states. He doesn't spend much time watching tv unless there is a hockey game on or the nightly news. Anything above that is a plus......but he still wants to get the "best" antenna possible. Please explain what you mean by vhf-hi channels...which ones are they on my report...and is there an antenna that gets both uhf and vhf?


Thanks.


----------



## gbynum




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *silvercity22* /forum/post/21099116
> 
> 
> The channels in Canada recently changed and I believe everything is broadcast in digital...which is why his rabbit ears don't work anymore. Unless I'm wrong...in that case yes he wants analog and digital.



There is no such thing as a digital antenna ... rabbit ears, with suitable signals, work as well with digital signals as analog signals.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *silvercity22* /forum/post/21099116
> 
> 
> Please explain what you mean by vhf-hi channels...which ones are they on my report...and is there an antenna that gets both uhf and vhf?



The VHF band is split in 2 parts, 54MHz-86MHz is channels 2-6 and is commonly identified as Lo. The upper part starts about 174MHz, is commonly Hi, and is channels 7-13.


I'm not going to muddy the water trying to recommend an antenna (there are some REALLY GOOD and knowledgeable folks here who'll do that for you), but yes, there are good combo antennas for VHF-hi and UHF. The USA has found that VHF-Lo is not very successful with digital TV, and there are VERY few left there. I've not followed the Canadian conversion; Trip at www.rabbitears.info should have moderately (or VERY) up-to-date info.


----------



## bucknuts07

Hello, My dad recently constructed a floating house that sits on Lake Barkley in Tennessee. I have tried to read over this forum to get an understanding in receiving ota signals, but I'm totally lost as to what advice to give him. He was going to have directv installed, but when they came out, they indicated that since the water levels change with the season, that he needed a tracker satellite which cost over $800. Here is the tv fool report.. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...60b55a22f04492 


This house does have a metal roof, and is around 2000 sq feet. So I'm guessing from this report he will need a roof mounted antenna. Can someone please give me some advice as to what would be his best options. Thanks !


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> This house does have a metal roof, and is around 2000 sq feet. So I'm guessing from this report he will need a roof mounted antenna. Can someone please give me some advice as to what would be his best options. Thanks !



Thats a big floating house. Hes going to need vhf-hi and uhf. Since it sounds like you guys are DIYers, I would say make a relatively small GH4n3 with NARODs to get your major channels.

http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/gh_n3_uV.html 


Yes, mount it outside on the roof. Positioned correctly, the metal roof can help reception.


----------



## bucknuts07




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/21099600
> 
> 
> Thats a big floating house. Hes going to need vhf-hi and uhf. Since it sounds like you guys are DIYers, I would say make a relatively small GH4n3 with NARODs to get your major channels.
> 
> http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/gh_n3_uV.html
> 
> 
> Yes, mount it outside on the roof. Positioned correctly, the metal roof can help reception.



He is pretty handy, but not tech savy. He has a bravia tv with built in tuner. So ideally I'm looking for something easy that i can buy, and he can install. Are you saying, he needs to to also buy the scanner as well. Sorry, very confused, just want a fool proof solution for him. Thanks,


----------



## arxaw

An ANT 751 should get your major channels of interest. Put it at least 6' above the metal roof.


----------



## silvercity22




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gbynum* /forum/post/21099206
> 
> 
> There is no such thing as a digital antenna ... rabbit ears, with suitable signals, work as well with digital signals as analog signals.The VHF band is split in 2 parts, 54MHz-86MHz is channels 2-6 and is commonly identified as Lo. The upper part starts about 174MHz, is commonly Hi, and is channels 7-13.
> 
> 
> I'm not going to muddy the water trying to recommend an antenna (there are some REALLY GOOD and knowledgeable folks here who'll do that for you), but yes, there are good combo antennas for VHF-hi and UHF. The USA has found that VHF-Lo is not very successful with digital TV, and there are VERY few left there. I've not followed the Canadian conversion; Trip at www.rabbitears.info should have moderately (or VERY) up-to-date info.



Thanks for the info....will check out the site you mentioned. Maybe someone could suggest a good combo VHF-hi and UHF antenna?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *silvercity22* /forum/post/21099116
> 
> 
> The channels in Canada recently changed and I believe everything is broadcast in digital...which is why his rabbit ears don't work anymore. Unless I'm wrong...in that case yes he wants analog and digital.
> 
> 
> His main goal is to get the local channels (cbc, ctv, global) and if lucky a few from the states. He doesn't spend much time watching tv unless there is a hockey game on or the nightly news. Anything above that is a plus......but he still wants to get the "best" antenna possible. Please explain what you mean by vhf-hi channels...which ones are they on my report...and is there an antenna that gets both uhf and vhf?
> 
> 
> Thanks.



Let's start with the basics. Analog channels have (or will soon be) REPLACED by Digital.

So if he only has Analog reception capability, some sort of DTV Converter will need

to be added between the antenna and his old, Analog TV....or get a new DTV/HDTV.


Note that the inexpensive Converter Boxes (e.g. CECB Coupon) only output low-rez,

whereas slightly more expensive HD-STBs also output Hi-Rez via Component and/or

HDMI Intefaces. See my signature line for an old "CECB Features" List of SD-STBs.

And see fol. thread if you are looking for an HD-STB:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=179095 


If he DOES have DTV (ATSC) Reception capability, it may be necessary to RESCAN

to update the DTV's channel list. Since some DTV channels are at 85.8-degrees,

if he wants to receive those channels, the antenna will need to be rotated in that

direction before doing a second RESCAN (aka "ADD CHANNEL" in some DTVs).


Since Analog Ch2 and Ch6 were (or will be) replaced by higher numbered

DTV Channels, there does not appear to be any need to receive Lo-VHF,

hence a combination Hi-VHF/UHF antenna can be used (Hi-VHF = Ch7-13).


Rabbit Ears are a combination Hi-VHF/UHF antenna...although their indoor

location can make it difficult to receive weak stations....which MIGHT get better

in the near future as Canadian DTV stations ramp up to full power (others may

have better insight on this process in your area).


The best Rabbit Ear antennas are AMPLIFIED....preferably with a Gain dial,

although you don't have to worry about strong signal overload.

Here is the INDOOR antenna thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779 

If the Rabbit Ears aren't getting the job done, and you don't want to use

an Attic mounted or Outdoor antenna, there are some DIY projects that

can provide higher Gain....see "Antenna Simulations" in my signature line

and/or let us know if you are interested....


The best performance is provided by an OUTDOOR (or Attic mounted) antenna.

And you'll also need a Rotator if you want to also receive DTV at 85.8-degrees.


There are MANY, good Hi-VHF/UHF Combo OUTDOOR antennas to choose from,

including the fairly small, moderate gain RCA ANT-751 (aka EZHD) and the larger,

higher gain Antennacraft (HBU-xx series), Winegard (HD769x series) and

Channel Master (CM-30xx & CM-50xx series).


----------



## silvercity22




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Let's start with the basics. Analog channels have (or will soon be) REPLACED by Digital.
> 
> So if he only has Analog reception capability, some sort of DTV Converter will need
> 
> to be added between the antenna and his old, Analog TV....or get a new DTV/HDTV.
> 
> 
> Note that the inexpensive Converter Boxes (e.g. CECB Coupon) only output low-rez,
> 
> whereas slightly more expensive HD-STBs also output Hi-Rez via Component and/or
> 
> HDMI Intefaces. See my signature line for an old "CECB Features" List of SD-STBs.
> 
> And see fol. thread if you are looking for an HD-STB:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=179095
> 
> 
> If he DOES have DTV (ATSC) Reception capability, it may be necessary to RESCAN
> 
> to update the DTV's channel list. Since some DTV channels are at 85.8-degrees,
> 
> if he wants to receive those channels, the antenna will need to be rotated in that
> 
> direction before doing a second RESCAN (aka "ADD CHANNEL" in some DTVs).
> 
> 
> Since Analog Ch2 and Ch6 were (or will be) replaced by higher numbered
> 
> DTV Channels, there does not appear to be any need to receive Lo-VHF,
> 
> hence a combination Hi-VHF/UHF antenna can be used (Hi-VHF = Ch7-13).
> 
> 
> Rabbit Ears are a combination Hi-VHF/UHF antenna...although their indoor
> 
> location can make it difficult to receive weak stations....which MIGHT get better
> 
> in the near future as Canadian DTV stations ramp up to full power (others may
> 
> have better insight on this process in your area).
> 
> 
> The best Rabbit Ear antennas are AMPLIFIED....preferably with a Gain dial,
> 
> although you don't have to worry about strong signal overload.
> 
> Here is the INDOOR antenna thread:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779
> 
> If the Rabbit Ears aren't getting the job done, and you don't want to use
> 
> an Attic mounted or Outdoor antenna, there are some DIY projects that
> 
> can provide higher Gain....see "Antenna Simulations" in my signature line
> 
> and/or let us know if you are interested....
> 
> 
> The best performance is provided by an OUTDOOR (or Attic mounted) antenna.
> 
> And you'll also need a Rotator if you want to also receive DTV at 85.8-degrees.
> 
> 
> There are MANY, good Hi-VHF/UHF Combo OUTDOOR antennas to choose from,
> 
> including the fairly small, moderate gain RCA ANT-751 (aka EZHD) and the larger,
> 
> higher gain Antennacraft (HBU-xx series), Winegard (HD769x series) and
> 
> Channel Master (CM-30xx & CM-50xx series).



Great info. He plans on getting an outdoor antenna and installing it on the roof. I will look into the ones you mentioned. I guess a combo antenna is better than the CM 4221 a friend suggested.


Just read a bit on what a rotator is and what it does. What do you mean by 85.8 degrees? He'd get other channels? Which ones? Would he have to change the direction of the antenna manually if he puts a rotator (as in go on the roof)? Could you explain this part for me?


Thanks.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *silvercity22* /forum/post/21106031
> 
> 
> Great info. He plans on getting an outdoor antenna and installing it on the roof. I will look into the ones you mentioned. I guess a combo antenna is better than the CM 4221 a friend suggested.
> 
> 
> Just read a bit on what a rotator is and what it does. What do you mean by 85.8 degrees? He'd get other channels? Which ones? Would he have to change the direction of the antenna manually if he puts a rotator (as in go on the roof)? Could you explain this part for me?
> 
> 
> Thanks.



Sorry, I was off by one column (85.8 miles) when I read off the number....


Most of your stations are due South (176-188 deg re to True North).

PS: I'm looking at the "Pending Applications" channel list in TVFool.


TVA & second versions of TQ, SRC are on 128-deg Azimuth,

which is 50-degrees away. CKMI (Ch11) and CFKS (V, Ch30) are

also in this direction, but might be too weak....and Ch11 will

probably also be blocked by adjacent Ch10 & Ch12.


If you want TVA, a Rotator MIGHT be needed depending on how well

Ch7 is received on the sidelobes of the main beam pointed toward 178-deg.

You might want to try it without the Rotator to begin with....


An Antenna Rotator consists of a Motor that rotates the upper antenna mast

and a Control Unit that can be located next to the user...or operated via a R/C:
http://www.channelmaster.com/Antenna...pment_s/30.htm 

Modern Antenna Rotator Control Units can switch between multiple PRESET

directions. C-M makes a good medium duty Rotator...avoid light duty units.


Since they are designed for heavy antennas, Ham Radio Antenna Rotators

are also highly recommended, esp. for locations with high winds & ice buildup:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=41103 


BTW: When an antenna is twisted around by the wind, a Rotator comes in

handy to point it back where it belongs, usually without a trip to the roof

in the middle of winter. [Ah, winter....something I vaguely remember....]


----------



## A J




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/21082182
> 
> 
> Since you only have ONE strong signal, W-G AP-4700 would probably provide slightly better,
> 
> performance....unfortunately, Amazon only stocks "similar" AP-8700 with 17 dB VHF Gain.
> 
> It's the same price and the extra VHF Gain should help rather than hurt Ch11 reception.
> 
> 
> Sat RF Splitters on Amazon:
> 
> Audiovox DH24SPR (aka RCA DH24SP, DC PASS Both Ports)



Thanks for your help. I just received and installed a Winegard AP-8700 preamp (19 dB UHF and 17 dB VHF) and an Audiovox DH24SPR splitter. Signal strength for four UHF channels which had been 85%-91% are now 96%-98%. Four other UHF channels which had been 78%-82% are now 93%-96%.


One oddity was my single VHF channel (virtual Ch42, actual Ch11) which dropped from 83% down to 63% with lots of dropouts and pixelating. I then went back up into the attic and switched off the FM trap on the preamp. Bingo - signal strength on that VHF channel jumped to 93% while all of the UHF channels appear to be unaffected. Looks like I'm good-to-go. Thanks again for the helpful advice.


Is it normal for a high VHF channel to be so negatively impacted by a FM trap? And, is there any downside to leaving the FM trap disabled?


AJ


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Is it normal for a high VHF channel to be so negatively impacted by a FM trap?



No, youre the first Ive heard report of it. (maybe thats why its price is reduced so much ?) You also have so many reflections going on in that attic, I wouldnt know where to begin, heh.



> Quote:
> And, is there any downside to leaving the FM trap disabled?



If you dont have any super strong FM stations nearby causing you problems, leave it disabled, no downside.


----------



## A J




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/21112553
> 
> 
> You also have so many reflections going on in that attic, I wouldnt know where to begin, heh.



Welcome to digital TV!







I get over 25 sub-channels, 14 to 37 miles from towers spaced over a 40+ degree azimuth spread. Every one is crystal clear. Back in the oldie analog day ghosts would have run amuck with that attic installation.


AJ


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A J* /forum/post/21113813
> 
> 
> Welcome to digital TV!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I get over 25 sub-channels, 14 to 37 miles from towers spaced over a 40+ degree azimuth spread. Every one is crystal clear. Back in the oldie analog day ghosts would have run amuck with that attic installation.
> 
> 
> AJ



Growing up in Concord, 9 and 18 had a lot of ghosting/double images, and 3 had static and noise. 36 was just weak until they went full power in 87 and it got better. But digital is a significant improvement as you get a perfect picture, even on fringe stations. Provided of course, you have a good antenna set up and are in a good signal reception area. But I am fortunate to get strong signals from 2 markets here in Greenville, SC, including Charlotte.


----------



## mdades

i'm in a san francisco apt. building, lots of other

buildings around me. concrete and steel

construction, one window.


i need an antenna for an hdtv. it must be-

indoor, omni-directional (as i will not able to

move it and the towers are in several directions),

uhf/vhf, amplified, have a small footprint, and

be small overall. base should be able to sit on

a 4"x4" flat surface or be able to clamp to a

vertical one-inch diameter pole.


does anyone have recomendations?


thanks.


ps- i did look at the various forums before

posting on here, but ran into either too much

info or not enough.


----------



## ADTech

Bottom line is that your "wants" probably don't match what your circumstances dictate.


If you happen to find that magic antenna, let us know, please...


Indoors reception in an urban environment is going to be hit or miss. It seems to miss more often than hit due to many variable outside the control of the either the antenna or the customer.


Best thing you can do is to place the antenna in front of a window that faces both Sutro and San Bruno. If that cannot be accomplished, it will be a total crap shoot.


----------



## arxaw

As long as you do not use an amplified antenna (that would likely make reception worse in your urban setting), what probably matters more than the antenna you choose is _where_ you locate it in your apartment. As ADTech posted, a window location and away from any and all electronic devices will likely be your best bet to find a reception hot spot.


Believe it or not, a simple dipole/loop antenna may work best for you. Model 15-1874 from RS often works very well. Once again, the key to good reception in your situation is finding an indoor sweet spot for all your channels of interest. Extend the VHF dipole rods no more than about half length, each.


Add additional coax to move the thing around and get it away from interference, by connecting a barrel splice to the existing short coax. Near your TV is often one of the worst locations for an antenna.


----------



## mdades




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADTech* /forum/post/21158158
> 
> 
> Bottom line is that your "wants" probably don't match what your circumstances dictate.
> 
> 
> If you happen to find that magic antenna, let us know, please...
> 
> 
> Indoors reception in an urban environment is going to be hit or miss. It seems to miss more often than hit due to many variable outside the control of the either the antenna or the customer.
> 
> 
> Best thing you can do is to place the antenna in front of a window that faces both Sutro and San Bruno. If that cannot be accomplished, it will be a total crap shoot.



thanks for responding, but your response has little to do

with my info request. i did not ask for advice as to

placement, but for suggestions as to a model that fits

the specs i listed.


----------



## mdades

adtech


thanks for replying, but,

my circumstances dictate the specs i listed. i did not ask

for advice about placement or anything but on antennas

that match the specs mentioned. i cannot use some other

type of antenna, i cannot make use of an attenna i have

to move, i cannot put an antenna in front of a window

or away from electronics, etc.


arxaw


ditto. i do not need advice on placement, or suggestions

on antennas other than the specs i listed. i have

limitations on where i can place an antenna, the size

and type it can be, etc. i've already been through the

placement and type issues before, and what i've listed

is what i need, and the only reason i am posting on here

is to get recommendations on specific models that meet my specs. if you can do that, great.


----------



## arxaw

The antenna I linked to is fairly multi-directional. An amplified antenna will likely overload your signals and degrade reception.


With indoor reception, you can't fix a bad antenna placement location with a "magic" antenna. If you're not flexible on placement locations to find a sweet spot, you'll have to accept whatever channels are received where you put the thing.


----------



## retiredengineer

You can also try the TERK HDTVi. It's small, has a directional pattern, and more gain in the UHF band. This might help if there is lots of multipaths in your urban location. Reorient the antenna to find the sweet direction. Hope this helps.


Missed the part about being omni-directional. Therefore I now recommend the Mohu Leaf Antenna. It works well if you are close to the transmit antenna.


----------



## holl_ands

*OMNI and QUASI-OMNI ANTENNA CHOICES:*


First of all, simple UHF-Loop and VHF Rabbit-Ear antennas have minimal Gain

ONLY on a fairly narrow range of angles, which can be positioned to those

directions in which there are NO desirable stations...OR position NULLS more

or less towards the STRONGEST signals so weak stations have most Gain:
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...0590%20MHz.jpg 
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...0590%20MHz.jpg 

This is also typical for Single Bowtie and 2-Bay Bowtie (NO Reflector) antennas.

*Do NOT mount antennas on/near metal or wood--it can kill antenna reception.

Do NOT mount NEAR active electronic equipment, because they radiate RF interference.*


Given the problems in below OMNI antennas, you might want to try:


1) *TWO ANTENNAS:*Use RF Splitter to combine two indoor antennas

(e.g. VHF-RabbitEars+UHF-Loop). This may or may not work...depending on

whether or not you are getting coherent or out-of-phase signal combining....

and suffers from 4 dB splitter loss. If using dis-similar antennas, rotate one

of the antennas by 180-degrees to see if they are in or out of phase. May

be different for VHF-RabbitEars and UHF-Loop.


There are very few (QUASI-) OMNI-DIRECTIONAL antennas to chose from:

*HORIZONTALLY POLARIZED QUASI-OMNI (need for TV Band):*


2) *RCA Flat (Quasi-) Omnidirectional Antennas.* Unless the towers are within

about 10-miles, I would first try the AMPLIFIED ANT-1550 laid FLAT (not upright):
http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT1550-Mu.../dp/B001GE6TA4 

If closer to towers, try non-amplified RCA ANT-1500 Flat Antenna:
http://www.amazon.com/ANT1500-Superi.../dp/B00196757K 

RCA/Audiovox doesn't publish performance specs, but Marcoux tested one

of the RCA Flat Panels and found miserable (worst case angle/freq) results:
http://www.ccbe.ca/Downloads/CCBE200...ngDTVminFS.pdf [See pg10]


3) *DIY: Turnstiles* are popular in the FM Band, but you would need to build rescaled

UHF and Hi-VHF versions. Two Folded Dipoles are interconnected with a feedline

that is 1/2-wavelength long. Since the Hi-VHF version would be quite big, you

might want to only build UHF version and hope Hi-VHF signals are strong enough:
http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/omniant.pdf 
http://www.winegarddirect.com/pdf/spec_PR6010.pdf 

NOTE: From W-G PR-6010 (aka HD-6010) spec, *they aren't OMNI on all frequencies.*


4) *DIY: Twisted Turnstile* ("S" shape) are popular in the FM Band, but you would

need to build rescaled UHF and Hi-VHF versions...easier than Turnstile above:
http://www.mindspring.com/~brucec/fmant.htm 

As you can see, it's a simple Folded Dipole that has been bent into an "S" shape.

Here are dimensions for UHF & Hi-VHF Folded Dipoles, using indicated element

wire sizes, before they are bent:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops 

You could also build a lower performance, twin-lead version and figure how to

keep it in an "S" shape:
http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html 


*VERTICALLY POLARIZED TRUE OMNI (only works with Circular Polarized Transmitters):*


5) *DIY: Vertical "X" Wideband Omni* could be readily hidden in a room.

Gain and esp. SWR bandwidth are better than Dipoles, just like a Bow-tie. ONLY

works well with Vertically Polarized TV signals...which you probably don't have:
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/omni.htm 

K6STI's dimensions are for the FM Band (98 MHz Center Freq). Rescale

for UHF and Hi-VHF Bands. Or try just UHF version and hope that Hi-VHF

signals are strong enough to receive.

For UHF (585 MHz Center Freq), dimensions are SMALLER by Factor = 98/585 = 0.1675.

For Hi-VHF (198 MHz Center Freq), dimensions are SMALLER by Factor = 198/585 = 0.3385.


6) *DIY: Vertical Folded Dipole* could be readily hidden in a room. ONLY

works well with Vertically Polarized TV signals...which you probably don't have.

Rescale for UHF and Hi-VHF versions. Combine using UVSJ Combiner. Or just

build the UHF version and hope that Hi-VHF signals are strong enough:
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...ad%20Chart.jpg 


7) *Monopole "Whip"* (came with my USB Stick Tuner) is miserable on ALL

channels. Length should be adjusted to "tune" it for nearly EVERY channel.

These are commonly called 1/4-wavelength whips, but 5/8 is better:
http://www.onlineconversion.com/freq...wavelength.htm 
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/atta...4&d=1295292894 

Whip needs to be mounted on some sort of metal plate...bigger is better....

ONLY works well with Vertically Polarized TV signals...which you probably don't have:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/dipoles/monopole 
http://www.hauppauge.co.uk/site/prod...a_antenna.html 


*HORIZONTALLY & VERTICALLY POLARIZED:*


8) *VHF Rabbit Ears* can be positioned so one is pointed upwards, like a Whip,

the other laying down, pointing so that the null (along the direction of the rod)

is not towards the desired stations. I haven't modeled, but NOT a true OMNI.


============================================

Perhaps you are NOW interested in a Bi-Directional Antenna, see EV's Indoor Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779


----------



## ADTech

mdades,


It's called a "r*eality chec*k". What you want is largely impossible without sophisticated electronics that only exist as prototypes. I talk to folks nearly ever day who think they know what they want, and, guess what, they usually don't need what they want because they don't know what they need to be sucessful.


Forewarned is forearmed. Experience here is extensive, both practical and theoretical. Take advantage of it and don't get stuck on impracticalities.


As the old "original" Will Crowther Adventure game was famous for saying something to the effect of, "It is pitch black. If you proceed, you will fall into a pit."


----------



## mdades

i put the specs on here for reasons that are

personal. i've tried a uni-pole, di-pole, loop,

bow-tie, and even a top-rated outdoor antenna

(rated on avs) in front of my window. none were

better than any others, and i cannot do any

reorienting due to my physical limitatations.

i've got to have something i can keep in one

place and do not have to fiddle with. there are

both uhf and vhf stations here. i know the

limitations will not produce great results, but

i'm stuck with them untill comcast adds all of

the local hd ota stations to the direct cable in

qam.


----------



## deltaguy

There are remote controlled A-B switches one can employ for using 2 antennas indoors if that would help.


----------



## retiredengineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mdades* /forum/post/21165305
> 
> 
> i put the specs on here for reasons that are
> 
> personal. i've tried a uni-pole, ......... but
> 
> i'm stuck with them untill comcast adds all of
> 
> the local hd ota stations to the direct cable in
> 
> qam.



I'm confused. I checked the Comcast website and it seems that they offer local HD stations in QAM. Have you tried rescanning your TV. Comcast is always moving where the local channels can be found.


The following was posted in an Yahoo group forum last year:


Re: Clear QAM on Comcast


Comcast delivers local broadcast channels in the SF bay area clear of

encryption, this includes any digital and/or HD channels. No legal worries,

those HD channels are free and clear with just a basic subscription.


----------



## mdades




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/21165812
> 
> 
> There are remote controlled A-B switches one can employ for using 2 antennas indoors if that would help.



yes, i know, though only radio shack seems to

carry them- but their isolation sucks. there is

a better choice that lets one splice the outputs

from two antennas into one rf in, but i'd still

have to fiddle with the directions and i cannot

do that. i'd rather find something like a silver

sensor type of antenna with a built-in remote

rotor.


----------



## mdades




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *retiredengineer* /forum/post/21165940
> 
> 
> I'm confused. I checked the Comcast website and it seems that they offer local HD stations in QAM. Have you tried rescanning your TV. Comcast is always moving where the local channels can be found.
> 
> 
> The following was posted in an Yahoo group forum last year:
> 
> 
> Re: Clear QAM on Comcast
> 
> 
> Comcast delivers local broadcast channels in the SF bay area clear of
> 
> encryption, this includes any digital and/or HD channels. No legal worries,
> 
> those HD channels are free and clear with just a basic subscription.



unfortunately not true. and i do keep re-scanning.


the only hd channels they provide in clear are

the cbs and kgo affiliates. the rest are in sd

and analog simulcast, with the nbc affiliate only

being in analog. and several local stations are

missing completely, like kofy-tv with it's newly

aqquired metv subchannel.


----------



## AntAltMike

As far as the isolation of a Radio Shack remote switch is concerned, it is more than adequate for its purpose. A Channelmaster VHF Jointenna has less than ten dB of isolation at VHF lowband frequencies (I know, I measured several of them) but worked fine in that application, and the isolation need of a switch selecting ATSC digital signals is much less than needed when isolating NTSC analog signals.


There was a junkie little set top antenna with a remote rotor on eBay for years that sold for under $20. Maybe someone here remembers its name or part number. I think the main objection to it was that it had a chincy, high gain amplifier built into it, but I'm sure an enterprising person could detach that antenna and attach a Silver Sensor to its mast stub. If mdades's VHF needs can be met with a dipole, he can combine it with the Silver Sensor using a UVSJ, which cost $3 or less.


mdades's "specs" are for a small antenna that can be placed anywhere in a known horrible reception environment and work well. If he seeks to purchase such an antenna based on an internet claim of its suitablity, he should visit the "TerK" website.


As the old saying goes, "A fool and his money..."


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/21167018
> 
> 
> ...There was a junkie little set top antenna with a remote rotor on eBay for years that sold for under $20. Maybe someone here remembers its name or part number. ...



Here's one for $20:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIGITAL-VHF-...item45fe350a6d 


Searching eBay for titles containing the terms "antenna" and "rotor" produced a liat of 260 with roughly 2/3s of them for similar little, cheap motorized antennas. Unfortunately, all the ones I checked have integrated amplifiers with higher gain, and probably lower maximum input output ratings, than I'd expect mdades to need. While some might be easier to rip the amplifier out of than others, I can't discern which from the pictures


----------



## tbird2340




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/19798221
> 
> 
> Looks like you are experiencing a lot of reflected signals.(mutipath). Strange that it is occurring on all channels. Have you tried tweaking the aim or height of the antenna? If you have trees right in front of the antenna, you may need a rotator if the multipath is severe enough or your desired stations are more than 20° apart.



So I finally went up on my roof the other day to try and do some minor adjustments to see if I could get KDKA solid without any blacking out like in the past.. Now it's even worse, on all channels.. Here is how my antenna looks if this is any help what so ever..


----------



## retiredengineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tbird2340* /forum/post/21169709
> 
> 
> So I finally went up on my roof the other day to try and do some minor adjustments to see if I could get KDKA solid without any blacking out like in the past.. Now it's even worse, on all channels.. Here is how my antenna looks if this is any help what so ever..



I am assuming you are in Poland Ohio. I put your city into TvFool and it said you receive KDKA as a 2 edge diffraction signal at a low level. I would check your coaxial cables to make sure it's not bad or there is corrosion on the inner or outer conductor. Water could have seeped in ruining your cable.


If the cable is fine then you really need to add a preamplifier as close to the antenna as possible. The antenna may be picking up the signal OK but when it goes down a lossy cable, there is nothing for the HDTV to process. A preamplifier makes up for this loss and can also compensates for noisy TV tuners.


----------



## tbird2340




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *retiredengineer* /forum/post/21170039
> 
> 
> I am assuming you are in Poland Ohio. I put your city into TvFool and it said you receive KDKA as a 2 edge diffraction signal at a low level. I would check your coaxial cables to make sure it's not bad or there is corrosion on the inner or outer conductor. Water could have seeped in ruining your cable.
> 
> 
> If the cable is fine then you really need to add a preamplifier as close to the antenna as possible. The antenna may be picking up the signal OK but when it goes down a lossy cable, there is nothing for the HDTV to process. A preamplifier makes up for this loss and can also compensates for noisy TV tuners.



I have at least 3 cables tied together from the antenna to my TV.. The one came undone and since it wasn't football season when it did I had left it undone so it was in the elements for months.. That could be it then?


If I were to just replace all the cable would this be good enough?


How do people get power on their roofs in order to plug in things like a preamp?


Thanks!


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mdades* /forum/post/21166781
> 
> 
> yes, i know, though only radio shack seems to
> 
> carry them- but their isolation sucks. there is
> 
> a better choice that lets one splice the outputs
> 
> from two antennas into one rf in, but i'd still
> 
> have to fiddle with the directions and i cannot
> 
> do that. i'd rather find something like a silver
> 
> sensor type of antenna with a built-in remote
> 
> rotor.



If a Silver Sensor properly aimed gets all of the channels you are trying to receive, buy a rotor. Rotors aren't very large and can be used indoors as well as out. I understand this is an additional expense, but recalling a specific aim would be easy to do. That could be helpful. This is just another option. Good Luck.


----------



## holl_ands

In addition to the R-S Remote Controlled A/B RF Switch, I listed specs for several

Electrical Relays with exceptional RF isolation specs. You just have to figure out

how to switch the DC power on and off to flip the relay:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show....php?p=1295261 


======================================================

Radio Shack used to carry *15-1892 Indoor "UFO"* with VHF-Rabbit-Ears and UHF

Rotating Disk under Remote Control. Internal Preamp is not suitable if nearby towers:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779 

A used one is sometimes available for purchase on eBay, etc.


Radio Shack now carries the pricey *Antennacraft HDView360*, with Remote

Control for the large 21-in Rotating Disc (for UHF). VHF is Omni-Directional:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=3506951 
http://www.antennacraft.com/Antennas...Amplified.html [Better price.]

Internal Preamp is not suitable if nearby towers. Gain Specs are about same

as Terk HDTVi/a and Zenith/Philips/Antiference Silver Sensor (see HDTVPrimer).
http://www.antennacraft.com/pdfs/HDMS9100.pdf 


Of course, an outdoor antenna would provide MUCH better performance....up until

the time severe weather kills it....


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tbird2340* /forum/post/21170058
> 
> 
> I have at least 3 cables tied together from the antenna to my TV.. The one came undone and since it wasn't football season when it did I had left it undone so it was in the elements for months.. That could be it then?
> 
> 
> If I were to just replace all the cable would this be good enough?
> 
> 
> How do people get power on their roofs in order to plug in things like a preamp?
> 
> 
> Thanks!



That coax is good. If your connectors are corroded, I would replace everything.


Power is supplied to a mast-mounted preamp from a 110v power supply installed out of the weather, in the attic or indoors, preferably between the amp & your splitter. The DC power travels over the same coax that the antenna uses for the TV signal. If your splitter is between the power supply and the mast-amp, you must use one that blocks DC backfeeding. Like this one:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=HFS3D


----------



## holl_ands

Standard configuration is a Mast-Mounted Preamp with DC Voltage supplied

via the Coax from a Power Insertion Module, usually located behind the TV.

The PIM is designed so that it does NOT supply DC Voltage to the TV, so

no special protective devices are required:
http://winegard.com/kbase/upload/2451964.pdf 


If the Coax downlead goes through RF Splitter(s) to various TVs, PCs, etc,

then ONE location for the Power Insertion Module is between the

Preamp and the first Splitter, which sometimes means in the ATTIC.

DC Voltage ONLY goes up the coax to the Preamp, NOT to the Splitter(s).

PS: I have run across a few RF Splitters that had a DC Short on one or

more ports...which I quickly threw in the trash.


If you DON'T want to locate Power Insertion Module between Preamp and

the RF Splitter(s), then use *SATELLITE* RF Splitter(s), most of which

have DC PASS on one or both ports. I doubt that there are very many TVs

with a DC Short on the coax input, but if there is, it's probably a stray wire

in one of the coax connections....and if not, a DC Isolator would fix it...
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...u=615798102005 

Alternative would be 3-Port SATELLITE RF Splitter pointed out by arxaw above...


If a VHF and a UHF Antenna go through a VHF/UHF Combiner (aka Diplexer)

prior to going through a Preamp, any of several devices listed next will work.

If the Preamp is only intended to amplifiy UHF signals (very common),

then DC PASS is needed on the UHF port, as provided by Radio Shack

15-2586 and Antennas Direct EU-385CF. Pico-Macom and Holland UVSJ

parts have DC PASS only on the VHF port (yes, very bizarre).


----------



## 300ohm

Holl_ands posted in 2008:



> Quote:
> I haven't seen any claims re whether Philips PH-61006 (aka CV72) is intended for outdoor use. Perhaps you can check the bubble pack when you find one.



I found and bought one yesterday dirt cheap along with some Gemini matching transformer, heh. Found your post while searching for some info on it. Nope, its for indoor use unless you weather proof it.


Its made in China, circa 1997, but Quality Assured in USA.


----------



## holl_ands

*91XG Technical Data Sheet* was recently posed on Antennas Direct website:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/...V_Antenna.html 

Using THEIR dimensions and pricey simulator, they found about 0.5 dB higher Gain on 698 MHz

and 0.5 dB lower Gain on 470 MHz than Ken Nist found using HIS dimensions and wire model:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/91xg 


If you Google "antennas direct technical data sheet" you'll find more, incl. new DB-4e & DB2e


----------



## bassvivi

I am the wife of a disabled OEF vet. We need to cut off the 125 dollars a month Directv bill and get a roof top antenna.

We will live on Wolfe road in Sparta, NC 28675.

There are trees and hills. We also will have a tower available that should raise the antenna 50 feet. What antenna should we get and what pre amp? I went on the sites online such as TV fool.com and cbs is 57.1 miles away

I hope someone will be able to guide us.

Also I am clumsy and I will have to go up the tower once it is up...

I also forgot, we are on a budget as I am going to stop working to take care of my husband...

Thank you


I have the TV fool link but the site won't let me post it.


----------



## arxaw

Go ahead and post as much of the TVFool link as you can. We can figure it out and try to help you.


Be sure you set the antenna height at 50' in your input data on TVFool. That will affect results considerably.


----------



## tbird2340




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *retiredengineer* /forum/post/21170039
> 
> 
> I am assuming you are in Poland Ohio. I put your city into TvFool and it said you receive KDKA as a 2 edge diffraction signal at a low level. I would check your coaxial cables to make sure it's not bad or there is corrosion on the inner or outer conductor. Water could have seeped in ruining your cable.
> 
> 
> If the cable is fine then you really need to add a preamplifier as close to the antenna as possible. The antenna may be picking up the signal OK but when it goes down a lossy cable, there is nothing for the HDTV to process. A preamplifier makes up for this loss and can also compensates for noisy TV tuners.



Here's my exact report if it would help..


----------



## 300ohm

tbird2340, just a couple of observations from your pictures.


1) The antenna is aimed towards that power line transformer. If its a leaky RF one, that could cause reception problems.


2) The antenna is close to that metal chimney cap, also could be a potential source of reception problems. Experimenting with different heights, even though it would mean a new longer mast, may help.


3) I noticed how your chimney clamps are mounted, giving the mast a tilt angle. Thats probably a good thing considering KDKA lies over some hills. With and additional wedge in the top mount, the tilt angle will be even more, which could also help. Of couse, since its a 2 edge signal and not knowing where the signal bounces, maybe mounting perfectly straight would be better, so another experiment.


----------



## tbird2340




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/21173124
> 
> 
> tbird2340, just a couple of observations from your pictures.
> 
> 
> 1) The antenna is aimed towards that power line transformer. If its a leaky RF one, that could cause reception problems.
> 
> 
> 2) The antenna is close to that metal chimney cap, also could be a potential source of reception problems. Experimenting with different heights, even though it would mean a new longer mast, may help.
> 
> 
> 3) I noticed how your chimney clamps are mounted, giving the mast a tilt angle. Thats probably a good thing considering KDKA lies over some hills. With and additional wedge in the top mount, the tilt angle will be even more, which could also help. Of couse, since its a 2 edge signal and not knowing where the signal bounces, maybe mounting perfectly straight would be better, so another experiment.



Thanks for all the tips!!


Regarding the chimney cap and longer mast.. How long of a mast should I safely be able to use with the way I mount it?


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bassvivi* /forum/post/21172546
> 
> 
> I am the wife of a disabled OEF vet. We need to cut off the 125 dollars a month Directv bill and get a roof top antenna.
> 
> We will live on Wolfe road in Sparta, NC 28675.
> 
> There are trees and hills. We also will have a tower available that should raise the antenna 50 feet. What antenna should we get and what pre amp? I went on the sites online such as TV fool.com and cbs is 57.1 miles away
> 
> I hope someone will be able to guide us.
> 
> Also I am clumsy and I will have to go up the tower once it is up...
> 
> I also forgot, we are on a budget as I am going to stop working to take care of my husband...
> 
> Thank you
> 
> 
> I have the TV fool link but the site won't let me post it.




Hi bassvivi,

Regrettably I live in Colorado - a bit far to give a hand I'm afraid (I'm retired AF BTW). That being said a few thoughts come to mind. From a technical perspective for Q&As holl_ands and 300ohm often provide excellent inisight into the world of OTA TV reception.


From a practical standpoint, consider contacting members of a local ham radio club. Often they are most helpful in assisting the community in these types of things. In fact, your husband might even find ham radio an excellent hobby- naturally they can help there too. Not sure which of the clubs listed on the page below are local to you, so you might have to do a little searching. Check out this link:

http://www.ncarrl.org/clubs/ 


Also, consider contacting Bill Morine, The North Carolina Section manager of the American Radio Relay League's Roanoke division. His e-mail is:

[email protected] .


You might even start with him, explain your situation and ask if he can put you in touch with a local ham club. Feel free to mention that I, Nick, NH6ON (and sometimes KC4AAA), suggested contacting him. Even though I don't know him, hams are a very a friendly group. Good luck with everything and I hope you get that antenna up soon.

Nick


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Using THEIR dimensions and pricey simulator, they found about 0.5 dB higher Gain on 698 MHz
> 
> and 0.5 dB lower Gain on 470 MHz than Ken Nist found using HIS dimensions and wire model:
> http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/91xg



Give different individuals making the measurements and using different simulators and, perhaps using different assumptions (I see some notes on the first page of each data sheet), those results are pretty darn close. FWIW, I haven't seen a more complete and comprehensive data sheet from any of the other makers. Winegard's have been pretty decent, but these should make any antenna geek happy.



> Quote:
> f you Google "antennas direct technical data sheet" you'll find more, incl. new DB-4e & DB2e



Thanks!


I also found the 42XG, 43XG, FM3, C2v, C5, and V15 data sheets.


Looks like someone is finally trying to "get technical" instead of just relying only on a marketing slant to sell antennas.


----------



## retiredengineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tbird2340* /forum/post/21173216
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the tips!!
> 
> 
> ... How long of a mast should I safely be able to use with the way I mount it?



When you do use a longer mast, don't forget to put a piece of wood under the mast, otherwise, you will end up with a leak in your roof.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Regarding the chimney cap and longer mast.. How long of a mast should I safely be able to use with the way I mount it?



Right now it looks like you have about 5 ft of mast. Your chimney mounts look fairly sturdy and the 91XG doesnt weigh that much, so I would think a 10 ft piece of 1" galvanized EMT pipe should do it.

Keep in mind, maybe 10 ft wont be the right height for the best reception, but 7 ft may be. Experiment.


Yes, you probably would want some roof protection under the mast, either wood or a pvc cap with a hole in it.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/21174075
> 
> 
> ...Keep in mind, maybe 10 ft wont be the right height for the best reception, but 7 ft may be. Experiment...



Excellent suggestion. Higher is usually better, but sometimes moving the antenna up or _down_ a foot or so will put it in a stronger reception spot.


----------



## tbird2340




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/21174075
> 
> 
> Right now it looks like you have about 5 ft of mast. Your chimney mounts look fairly sturdy and the 91XG doesnt weigh that much, so I would think a 10 ft piece of 1" galvanized EMT pipe should do it.
> 
> Keep in mind, maybe 10 ft wont be the right height for the best reception, but 7 ft may be. Experiment.
> 
> 
> Yes, you probably would want some roof protection under the mast, either wood or a pvc cap with a hole in it.



Do they sell that EMT pipe at Home Depot or Lowes?


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tbird2340* /forum/post/21174740
> 
> 
> Do they sell that EMT pipe at Home Depot or Lowes?



Don't know about Home Depot but Lowes sells EMT. When I redid ours prior to the digital transition went to local electrical supply.


As an FYI 1-1/4 trade size EMT has an OD of 1.510 with .065 wall thickness making for a very strong mast.


/tom


----------



## tbird2340




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tschmidt* /forum/post/21174817
> 
> 
> Don't know about Home Depot but Lowes sells EMT. When I redid ours prior to the digital transition went to local electrical supply.
> 
> 
> As an FYI 1-1/4 trade size EMT has an OD of 1.510 with .065 wall thickness making for a very strong mast.
> 
> 
> /tom



Thanks.. Is it just called "EMT" pipe? What does EMT stand for?


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tbird2340* /forum/post/21173216
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the tips!!
> 
> 
> Regarding the chimney cap and longer mast.. How long of a mast should I safely be able to use with the way I mount it?



You should be able to use a 10 foot mast safely with such a light load. Looks like you are using the same Radio Shack rachet mount I use.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tbird2340* /forum/post/21174819
> 
> 
> Thanks.. Is it just called "EMT" pipe? What does EMT stand for?



Electrical Metal Tubing aka "conduit". Last time I looked ( a few months back), it's around $9-10 per 10' stick at Lowes or Home Depot. Electrical department has it.


----------



## mdades




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike* /forum/post/21167018
> 
> 
> As far as the isolation of a Radio Shack remote switch is concerned, it is more than adequate for its purpose. A Channelmaster VHF Jointenna has less than ten dB of isolation at VHF lowband frequencies (I know, I measured several of them) but worked fine in that application, and the isolation need of a switch selecting ATSC digital signals is much less than needed when isolating NTSC analog signals.
> 
> 
> There was a junkie little set top antenna with a remote rotor on eBay for years that sold for under $20. Maybe someone here remembers its name or part number. I think the main objection to it was that it had a chincy, high gain amplifier built into it, but I'm sure an enterprising person could detach that antenna and attach a Silver Sensor to its mast stub. If mdades's VHF needs can be met with a dipole, he can combine it with the Silver Sensor using a UVSJ, which cost $3 or less.
> 
> 
> mdades's "specs" are for a small antenna that can be placed anywhere in a known horrible reception environment and work well. If he seeks to purchase such an antenna based on an internet claim of its suitablity, he should visit the "TerK" website.
> 
> 
> As the old saying goes, "A fool and his money..."



there's no need to insult me- and i never said i expected

an antenna with the specs i listed to work well. it's

just the best i can make use of in my circumstances.


well, it sounds like i'm just going to have to get a

silver sensor type and micky-mouse up a rotor base.


----------



## mdades




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/21170274
> 
> 
> If a Silver Sensor properly aimed gets all of the channels you are trying to receive, buy a rotor. Rotors aren't very large and can be used indoors as well as out. I understand this is an additional expense, but recalling a specific aim would be easy to do. That could be helpful. This is just another option. Good Luck.



that's what i decided to do, see previous post. thanks.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> silver sensor type and micky-mouse up a rotor base.



Well, heres an off the wall type idea.


Bar-B-Que rotisserie motors are slow moving, and they come with a long spit handle. Attach the Silver Sensor antenna to one and plug the motor into a clapper outlet. Then just clap on to rotate, clap off to stop.


----------



## retiredengineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mdades* /forum/post/21175215
> 
> 
> .......
> 
> well, it sounds like i'm just going to have to get a
> 
> silver sensor type and micky-mouse up a rotor base.



I would think using four (4) Silver Sensors each aimed at the cardinal points then combined with a 4-way splitter/combiner would work in this situation.


----------



## ctdish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bassvivi* /forum/post/21172546
> 
> 
> I am the wife of a disabled OEF vet. We need to cut off the 125 dollars a month Directv bill and get a roof top antenna.
> 
> We will live on Wolfe road in Sparta, NC 28675.
> 
> There are trees and hills. We also will have a tower available that should raise the antenna 50 feet. What antenna should we get and what pre amp? I went on the sites online such as TV fool.com and cbs is 57.1 miles away
> 
> I hope someone will be able to guide us.
> 
> Also I am clumsy and I will have to go up the tower once it is up...
> 
> I also forgot, we are on a budget as I am going to stop working to take care of my husband...
> 
> Thank you
> 
> 
> I have the TV fool link but the site won't let me post it.



Using your street and city I got pretty low Noise Margins worse than -10 dB for several networks. You likely will not get reliable reception but you could try something like http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...utm_medium=cpc for UHF and this http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...u=716079000994 for VHF high channels. Use a CM 7777 preamp to combine the two antennas. You also have NBC on physical channel 5. If you want to also try for that swap the VHF high antenna for the largest full coverage VHF antenna you can find although most of the better ones have been discontinued in the last several years. You will also find a rotator is needed to find the best peak possible for each station.

John


----------



## holl_ands

Call your Cable Company to ask how much is LOCAL-CHANNELS-ONLY,

which consists of all of the local Digital TV channels in BOTH Analog

and Clear QAM digital format (Hi-Def when broadcasted), which usually

includes a few government and shopping channels. Typically costs

between $10-20/month. Many DTVs will receive "Clear QAM"

digital cable signals in addition to OTA ATSC and, of course, Analog

signals will work with ANY TV. Check you DTV manual...


Cox Cable may call it "TV Starter".

Time Warner may call it "Basic Cable".

COMCAST may call it "Limited Basic".


If your DTV doesn't support Clear QAM, you can buy a fairly inexpensive

Set-Top-Box that will...or rent a Cable Box:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=179095 

BTW: A FEW Cable systems may not work with Clear QAM tuners,

requiring you to use THEIR Cable Box.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/21176226
> 
> 
> Using your street and city I got pretty low Noise Margins worse than -10 dB for several networks. You likely will not get reliable reception but you could try something like http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...utm_medium=cpc for UHF and this http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...u=716079000994 for VHF high channels. Use a CM 7777 preamp to combine the two antennas. You also have NBC on physical channel 5. If you want to also try for that swap the VHF high antenna for the largest full coverage VHF antenna you can find although most of the better ones have been discontinued in the last several years. You will also find a rotator is needed to find the best peak possible for each station.
> 
> John



I did some work on this, also. While I don't know the ground involved, I know similar ground. The chances of getting a direct usable signal are very remote. Attempting VHF reception will probably be pointless. A signal may bounce in, but it would not produce much viewing value. With the mountains involved with the VHF signals, multipath will kill reception. A usable reflected signal from the nominal Roanoke UHF VA stations(30-and 18, which has two stations on it), and the nominal Winston Salem NC UHF stations(31 and 32) might be possible. With stacked bowties and a large reflector, some reception might be had. A rotor might bring in others, but I think they will be east and north. I think the mountains to the west will be a killer (that's channel 5). Basic cable seems a good option. The internet is a better option, as to cost, at least right now, given a high speed connection in place.


----------



## dnamertz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/21178223
> 
> 
> Call your Cable Company to ask how much is LOCAL-CHANNELS-ONLY,
> 
> which consists of all of the local Digital TV channels in BOTH Analog
> 
> and Clear QAM digital format (Hi-Def when broadcasted), which usually
> 
> includes a few government and shopping channels. Typically costs
> 
> between $10-20/month. Many DTVs will receive "Clear QAM"
> 
> digital cable signals in addition to OTA ATSC and, of course, Analog
> 
> signals will work with ANY TV. Check you DTV manual...
> 
> 
> Cox Cable may call it "TV Starter".
> 
> Time Warner may call it "Basic Cable".
> 
> COMCAST may call it "Limited Basic".



Is this something that can be had for only one month, or do you have to sign up for a long-term contract to get this $10-20/month service?


----------



## holl_ands

Ask your local Cable company....


----------



## bgooch




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/21178223
> 
> 
> Call your Cable Company to ask how much is LOCAL-CHANNELS-ONLY,
> 
> which consists of all of the local Digital TV channels in BOTH Analog
> 
> and Clear QAM digital format (Hi-Def when broadcasted), which usually
> 
> includes a few government and shopping channels. Typically costs
> 
> between $10-20/month. Many DTVs will receive "Clear QAM"
> 
> digital cable signals in addition to OTA ATSC and, of course, Analog
> 
> signals will work with ANY TV. Check you DTV manual...
> 
> 
> Time Warner may call it "Basic Cable".



In L.A. Time Warner offers "Broadcast" $13.34 not including a cable box.


----------



## Quai1Ooth5d

Of course, the next logical step would probably be to go with an outdoor antenna, but I have a few concerns. I need an antenna that isn't too big or ugly, for the wife factor. Most people are recommending the Channel Master 4228 or 4221, but I was hoping for something a little more pretty. I'm also concerned that if I buy one and it doesn't work, that I won't be able to return it (not to mention being out the installation fee I'm going to have to pay someone to go up on my three-story roof!)?


----------



## 300ohm

Post your TVFool image.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Quai1Ooth5d* /forum/post/21182324
> 
> 
> ...I need an antenna that isn’t too big or ugly...



We need more information to make an antenna suggestion for your location. Enter your address at: *http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=29*

and post a link to the results page back in this thread. The results will not display your address.


----------



## dnamertz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bgooch* /forum/post/21182320
> 
> 
> In L.A. Time Warner offers "Broadcast" $13.34 not including a cable box.



Is the cable box needed for this?


----------



## holl_ands

Here is what is on most (not all) Cable Systems:

*1) Analog NTSC channels: "Bare Bones"*, ALL Local stations plus a few Govt. & Shopping.

*2) Analog NTSC channels: "Expanded Tier"* channels UNDER Ch100...enabled via a Tier Filter.

*3) Clear QAM channels: Local stations (Hi-Def when avail.)* plus a few Govt. & Shopping.

[BTW: It is a Federal MANDATE to include this on their "Bare Bones" entry tier.]

*4) Encrypted QAM channels:* Low-Rez "Digital Simulcast" of Local stations (very rarely in Clear),

SD versions of the "Expanded Tier" and extra cost SD/HD Digital Tier channels.


There are a few *"NOT QUITE ALL DIGITAL"* cable systems that have eliminated

most Analog "Expanded Tier" channels, releasing as many as 50 channels, which

means the "Expanded Tier" is no longer viewable without a CableCard in a

"Digital Cable Ready" (DCR) DTV...or a CableCARD in a TiVo...or in a Cable Box.


And there are a few *"ALL DIGITAL"* cable systems that have ALSO eliminated

Analog "Bare Bones" Local+ channels, releasing perhaps another 20 channels.

Usually, there is available a lower cost Cable Box or Analog Only Converter.


And just to keep things interesting, some Cable Systems (e.g. COMCAST,

Charter, etc) are trying to use alternative Encryption methods....which

might be incompatible with CableCARD DCR DTVs and TiVos.....


================================================

As I said earlier: Even if they are NOT "Digital Cable Ready" (DCR)

(look for a CableCARD slot), many DTVs will receive "Clear QAM"

digital cable signals in addition to OTA ATSC and, of course, Analog

signals will work with ANY TV. Check your DTV manual...


If your DTV has a CableCARD slot (like PCMCIA), then it WILL decode

"Clear QAM" without the CableCARD....and WITH CableCARD enabled,

can decode the many ENCRYPTED, extra cost, digital channels, which

usually INCLUDE SD Low-Rez versions of the Local Analog channels.


If your DTV doesn't decode "Clear QAM" digital signals, you'll only see

Local channels in ANALOG. To view the Hi-Def Local channels, you could

buy an external HD-STB (Set-Top-Box) or HD-DVR...or rent an HD Cable Box:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=179095 


PS: If you use a TiVo (e.g. Premier) DVR, pay a few more bucks/mo for

a CableCARD, which is needed for correct sub-channel number decoding

between the cable system and the downloaded TiVo channel grid...which

in turn requires a monthly access fee....and a CableCARD installation fee...


----------



## naxe

I wish I could post a thread but I can't- thanks to spammers. what forum would I do that in? This one? I have my TV fool info.


----------



## mdades




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/21170470
> 
> 
> In addition to the R-S Remote Controlled A/B RF Switch, I listed specs for several
> 
> Electrical Relays with exceptional RF isolation specs. You just have to figure out
> 
> how to switch the DC power on and off to flip the relay:
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show....php?p=1295261
> 
> 
> ======================================================
> 
> Radio Shack used to carry *15-1892 Indoor "UFO"* with VHF-Rabbit-Ears and UHF
> 
> Rotating Disk under Remote Control. Internal Preamp is not suitable if nearby towers:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779
> 
> A used one is sometimes available for purchase on eBay, etc.
> 
> 
> Radio Shack now carries the pricey *Antennacraft HDView360*, with Remote
> 
> Control for the large 21-in Rotating Disc (for UHF). VHF is Omni-Directional:
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=3506951
> http://www.antennacraft.com/Antennas...Amplified.html [Better price.]
> 
> Internal Preamp is not suitable if nearby towers. Gain Specs are about same
> 
> as Terk HDTVi/a and Zenith/Philips/Antiference Silver Sensor (see HDTVPrimer).
> http://www.antennacraft.com/pdfs/HDMS9100.pdf
> 
> 
> Of course, an outdoor antenna would provide MUCH better performance....up until
> 
> the time severe weather kills it....




thanks for the info. price is not an issue, but

size and weight are. will check out specs.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *naxe* /forum/post/21187387
> 
> 
> I wish I could post a thread but I can't- thanks to spammers. what forum would I do that in? This one? I have my TV fool info.



If you have an antenna question and have your TVFool results, go ahead and post a link to the results in this thread. The link will be truncated, but we can still figure out the complete URL and try and help you.


----------



## shlebo

I am located in Overbrook which is south of Topeka, KS


I would like to get the cheapest antenna possible and still be able to atleast pull in one channel that gets the news.


I had an amplified plug in TV antenna that got me nothing at all. I have looked on EBAY at the rotor antennas but am suspicious that they are junk., If I could get by with one of these I would be thrilled though










Any info or suggestions would be helpful. My budget is tight - can't really even afford antenna but I want the news since it is almost winter.


Here is my antenna web info

* red

vhf KTWU-DT 11.1 PBS TOPEKA, KS 327° 22.6 11

blue

uhf KTMJ-CA 43 FOX TOPEKA, KS 327° 22.6 43

* blue

vhf WIBW-DT 13.1 CBS TOPEKA, KS 297° 30.7 13

blue

uhf KETM-LP 17 FOX TOPEKA, KS 235° 33.2 17

* violet

uhf KTKA-DT 49.1 ABC TOPEKA, KS 308° 25.8 49

* violet

uhf KSNT-DT 27.1 NBC TOPEKA, KS 327° 24.9 27


----------



## holl_ands

*shlebo:*

Here is TVFool Report for city of Overbrook, KS (Antennaweb Report is within 1/4-mi):
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...4bba3c9e95798c 

For Topeka, you need an antenna with both Hi-VHF (e.g. Ch11+13) and UHF.


FYI: Those inexpensive rotator antennas may advertise Hi-VHF reception, but the

element lengths are usually TOO SHORT or there is only ONE for Hi-VHF, making

them a very low Gain Hi-VHF antenna plus moderate Gain for UHF.


Top Four (primary networks) "should" be strong enough for RabbitEar-Loop antenna,

even one without an amplifier....perhaps there is something wrong with the antenna

you're using or there is a nearby building blocking the signal...or the antenna needs

to be located some distance away from other electronic equipment (interference)

via an extra length of coax cable and a Female-Female barrel connector....


You might want to try a different indoor antenna, returning it if it doesn't work:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779 

You might also want to temporarily try it in your attic with a long cable.


=====================================================

Outdoor antennas work best, avoiding indoor losses due to lack of antenna height,

foil-backed insulation and Lo-E Glass coatings. [Could be up to 20+ dB Loss.]


RCA ANT-751 is a small, medium Gain for Hi-VHF (Ch7-13) and UHF.

Unfortunately there are no specs, but I've modeled it and found that it is about

the same as the larger Ch2-69 Winegard HD7000, from which it was derived:
http://www.winegarddirect.com/pdf/HD7000R.pdf 

Note that it comes with a short J-pole for mounting on the eaves or wherever,

which is oftentimes more convenient than a roof-top, guy-wired mast:
http://www.google.com/products/catal...ed=0CFkQ8wIwAA 


If you ALSO want to receive FOX (Ch34), you could get a second antenna,

pointed towards Kansas City. Use an RF Splitter in reverse to Combine.

Since there are no VHF stations in that direction, the higher UHF Gain

CM4221HD (or any of several alternative 4-Bay Bowties) can be used:
http://www.google.com/search?q=cm4221hd&tbm=shop&aq=f 


Alternatively, you could use a single antenna with a rotator, eliminating

the 4 dB Loss through the RF Combiner...but is more difficult to operate.

I don't think you need a Mast-Mounted Preamp for primary networks,

but it might be needed to pick up MyN (Ch47) and CW (Ch31) networks.


=============================================

If you would like to save on the cost of antennas, consider the M4 (9.5x9.0)

Super-4-Bay DIY project with even higher UHF and ALSO Hi-VHF Gain:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl/m4swp 

If you prefer, mclapp sells DIY Kit parts, you just have to buy the Screen Reflector

(wire cage/fence material) from a local hardware store and do final assembly:
http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweather.com/index.html


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shlebo* /forum/post/21190135
> 
> 
> I am located in Overbrook which is south of Topeka, KS
> 
> 
> I would like to get the cheapest antenna possible and still be able to atleast pull in one channel that gets the news.
> 
> 
> I had an amplified plug in TV antenna that got me nothing at all. I have looked on EBAY at the rotor antennas but am suspicious that they are junk., If I could get by with one of these I would be thrilled though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any info or suggestions would be helpful. My budget is tight - can't really even afford antenna but I want the news since it is almost winter.
> 
> 
> Here is my antenna web info
> 
> * red
> 
> vhf KTWU-DT 11.1 PBS TOPEKA, KS 327° 22.6 11
> 
> blue
> 
> uhf KTMJ-CA 43 FOX TOPEKA, KS 327° 22.6 43
> 
> * blue
> 
> vhf WIBW-DT 13.1 CBS TOPEKA, KS 297° 30.7 13
> 
> blue
> 
> uhf KETM-LP 17 FOX TOPEKA, KS 235° 33.2 17
> 
> * violet
> 
> uhf KTKA-DT 49.1 ABC TOPEKA, KS 308° 25.8 49
> 
> * violet
> 
> uhf KSNT-DT 27.1 NBC TOPEKA, KS 327° 24.9 27



That the amplified indoor antenna failed suggests to me something other than the antenna is involved. What sort of reciever are your using? Do you have a DTV TV, or are you using a converter box?


----------



## shlebo

Difuse"That the amplified indoor antenna failed suggests to me something other than the antenna is involved. What sort of reciever are your using? Do you have a DTV TV, or are you using a converter box?"


I have a DTV TV, My sister in law who only lives a few blocks from me used the exact same antenna and pulled multiple stations. Her house sits a little higher than mine, but I thought I should have been able to get atleast one station with the thing.


----------



## shlebo




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/21190658
> 
> *shlebo:*
> 
> Here is TVFool Report for the city of Overbrook, KS (Antennaweb Report is within 1/4-mi):
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...4bba3c9e95798c
> 
> For Topeka, you need an antenna with both Hi-VHF (e.g. Ch11+13) and UHF.
> 
> 
> FYI: Those inexpensive rotator antennas may advertise Hi-VHF reception, but the
> 
> element lengths are usually TOO SHORT or there is only ONE for Hi-VHF, making
> 
> them a very low Gain Hi-VHF antenna plus moderate Gain for UHF.
> 
> 
> Top Four (primary networks) "should" be strong enough for RabbitEar-Loop antenna,
> 
> even one without an amplifier....perhaps there is something wrong with the antenna
> 
> you're using or there is a nearby building blocking the signal...or the antenna needs
> 
> to be located some distance away from other electronic equipment (interference)
> 
> via an extra length of coax cable and a Female-Female barrel connector....
> 
> 
> You might want to try a different indoor antenna, returning it if it doesn't work:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779
> 
> You might also want to temporarily try it in your attic with a long cable.
> 
> 
> =====================================================
> 
> Outdoor antennas work best, avoiding indoor losses due to lack of antenna height,
> 
> foil-backed insulation and Lo-E Glass coatings.
> 
> RCA ANT-751 is a small, medium Gain for Hi-VHF (Ch7-13) and UHF.
> 
> Unfortunately there are no specs, but I've modeled it and found that it is about
> 
> the same as the larger Ch2-69 Winegard HD7000, from which it was derived:
> http://www.winegarddirect.com/pdf/HD7000R.pdf
> 
> Note that it comes with a short J-pole for mounting on the eaves or wherever:
> http://www.google.com/products/catal...ed=0CFkQ8wIwAA
> 
> 
> If you ALSO want to receive FOX (Ch34), you could get a second antenna,
> 
> pointed towards Kansas City. Use an RF Splitter in reverse to Combine.
> 
> Since there are no VHF stations in that direction, the higher UHF Gain
> 
> CM4221HD (or any of several alternative 4-Bay Bowties) can be used:
> http://www.google.com/search?q=cm4221hd&tbm=shop&aq=f
> 
> 
> Alternatively, you could use a single antenna with a rotator, eliminating
> 
> the 4 dB Loss through the RF Combiner...but is more difficult to operate.
> 
> I don't think you need a Mast-Mounted Preamp for primary networks,
> 
> but it might be needed to pick up MyN (Ch47) and CW (Ch31) networks.



I must admit you lost me on some of this







I will show this to my husband and see if maybe he can help in this antenna picking process with your info. The channels 27 or 13 would be the main ones I am interested in. I would love to get FOX but just would like to pull a Topeka news station


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *shlebo* /forum/post/21190872
> 
> 
> Difuse"That the amplified indoor antenna failed suggests to me something other than the antenna is involved. What sort of reciever are your using? Do you have a DTV TV, or are you using a converter box?"
> 
> 
> I have a DTV TV, My sister in law who only lives a few blocks from me used the exact same antenna and pulled multiple stations. Her house sits a little higher than mine, but I thought I should have been able to get atleast one station with the thing.



Here's something to try. Find a piece of wire that you can push into the center of the antenna connector of the TV. Extend the wire one way then another. Then run a channel scan and see if anything pops up. It could tell you if the antenna you were using had failed. If signals aren't blocked by outside obstructions or materials in the house, you should get some signal.


----------



## Dirtgrain

Hello all. I posted this at TVFool yesterday (still awaiting moderator), but I would also like feedback from you all.


I'm looking to buy an antenna to install on the roof of my house so that I can get rid of U-verse and save some money. Here is my TV Signal Analysis: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...ec1244d26fb808 .


Channels I want, if possible:
The major network channels and PBS--all between 46 and 60 degrees and 23 to 28 miles away.
I didn't see it in this analysis, but I did see from other sites that Fox (WJBK), a channel I want, is VHF (where all the other channels are broadcast in UHF).
I see that the Ion channel (WPXD-DT) signal comes from another direction--291 degrees and 24 miles away--but it would be nice to get that, too.
I wonder if I can get CBC (CBET, a Canadian station), which is also not in the same direction as most of the major network signal points--it's coming from 101 degrees and 36 miles away. I think it's VHF.


The antenna would be 20-25 feet high above the ground, but I have several trees around the house. The TV (JVC Black Crystal 37"-- specs here if that matters) is on the ground-level floor. When it searched for channels, with no external antenna hooked up, it only "picked up" three channels: two showed nothing, and one showed a very messed up, white noise image. Before digital broadcasting, on a CRT TV, I got maybe six or seven channels with an indoor, powered antenna, but only two channels came in very well. I'm assuming a roof-mounted antenna is the way to go.


I don't have an antenna mounted on the roof now, and I'm looking for recommendations on an antenna and good hardware for mounting it. I'm thinking of mounting it at the peak of the roof with some sort of mast.


Please let me know what you think. Thanks.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dirtgrain* /forum/post/21204801
> 
> 
> Hello all. I posted this at TVFool yesterday (still awaiting moderator), but I would also like feedback from you all.
> 
> 
> I'm looking to buy an antenna to install on the roof of my house so that I can get rid of U-verse and save some money. Here is my TV Signal Analysis: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...ec1244d26fb808 .
> 
> 
> Channels I want, if possible:
> The major network channels and PBS--all between 46 and 60 degrees and 23 to 28 miles away.
> I didn't see it in this analysis, but I did see from other sites that Fox (WJBK), a channel I want, is VHF (where all the other channels are broadcast in UHF).
> I see that the Ion channel (WPXD-DT) signal comes from another direction--291 degrees and 24 miles away--but it would be nice to get that, too.
> I wonder if I can get CBC (CBET, a Canadian station), which is also not in the same direction as most of the major network signal points--it's coming from 101 degrees and 36 miles away. I think it's VHF.
> 
> 
> The antenna would be 20-25 feet high above the ground, but I have several trees around the house. The TV (JVC Black Crystal 37"-- specs here if that matters) is on the ground-level floor. When it searched for channels, with no external antenna hooked up, it only "picked up" three channels: two showed nothing, and one showed a very messed up, white noise image. Before digital broadcasting, on a CRT TV, I got maybe six or seven channels with an indoor, powered antenna, but only two channels came in very well. I'm assuming a roof-mounted antenna is the way to go.
> 
> 
> I don't have an antenna mounted on the roof now, and I'm looking for recommendations on an antenna and good hardware for mounting it. I'm thinking of mounting it at the peak of the roof with some sort of mast.
> 
> 
> Please let me know what you think. Thanks.




The Fox station is on channel 7, and CBET is channel 9. You might well get by with an indoor antenna. But as you will want the two VHF stations, something like "rabbit ears" will be needed for them. A roof top antenna would be much better, but there will be weather with which to contend. Given that, an attic antenna would work well, probably.

An attic antenna won't freeze or be subject to wind and can use a rotor. If an inexpensive indoor job won't do, then I'd put an antenna (UHF-VHF) in the attic on a rotor. You could always move it to the roof if you think you need to.

The antenna might not have to be too big, you won't need size for low band VHF as the two VHF stations you want are on high band. Check the space you might have and shop around, and keep asking questions.


----------



## arxaw

Dirtgrain,

This antenna should get your channels of interest located to the E/NE of you:
http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-HD769...pd_sim_sbs_e_3 


Mount it on this J-mount:
http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-DS-30...ref=pd_sim_e_3 


It _may_ get some other channels off-axis from it. If not, you'll need a rotor.


----------



## Dirtgrain

Thanks for the feedback. For me, a rooftop installation seems the best option (dropping a line from the attic seems more complicated, and it still might not work well). I don't mind how it will look.


I tried my friend's indoor powered antenna (an RCA with a round disc, a round wire around its perimeter that is free floating and adjustable, and two short, adjustable antenna rods). The TV's scanner found eight channel options, with several duplicated--so four, really: 4.1, 7.1, 56.1, and 62.1. None came in perfectly; that is, the visual looked great, but it would stop and stutter, with breaks in the audio.


I got up on the roof, and trees will surely be a factor at times. I think I'll go with that Weingard (I've seen it mentioned several times in other threads and forums).


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I got up on the roof, and trees will surely be a factor at times. I think I'll go with that Weingard (I've seen it mentioned several times in other threads and forums).



Yes, trees are a factor and depending on type, range from a nuisance to a steel wall as far as RF signals are concerned. Fir and Pine types are the worst, they hold the most water longest.


If you have a gable type roof, I wouldnt use the J pipe mount pipe but instead opt for gable end bracket mount and some inexpensive 10 ft sections of either chain link fencing pipe or EMT pipe in the 1 1/4" - 1 1/2" dia range, the bottom end set into about a square ft of concrete.


----------



## arxaw

The Winegard 7694P is not a big antenna and is easily supported by a J-mount, if properly installed.


----------



## tbird2340




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *retiredengineer* /forum/post/21173728
> 
> 
> When you do use a longer mast, don't forget to put a piece of wood under the mast, otherwise, you will end up with a leak in your roof.



I got to thinking.. Right now my antenna is mounted to my chimney and then my coax goes down, in my basement, in a coupler, out my basement, around my house, and then into a wall plate and then into my TV..


It would probably be way easier if I somehow mounted it on the other side of my house where the cable would drop down directly into the wall plate and then into my TV.. What are the mounting options for on a side of a house?


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tbird2340* /forum/post/21212232
> 
> 
> What are the mounting options for on a side of a house?



I think what you are looking for is a gable mount, just make sure is is well anchored into the structure.

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Supplies&sku=


----------



## tbird2340




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tschmidt* /forum/post/21212644
> 
> 
> I think what you are looking for is a gable mount, just make sure is is well anchored into the structure.
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Supplies&sku=



Awesome, thanks.. And generally how long of a mast can those hold?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tbird2340* /forum/post/21212649
> 
> 
> Awesome, thanks.. And generally how long of a mast can those hold?



Depending on what you put up top, a 10' mast would be about the practical limit without guy wires. I have an extended 91XG on top of such a rig along with a 3 element FM antenna low on my mast. It hasn't blown off yet...


----------



## arxaw

Another option for a gable end antenna:


----------



## Tschmidt




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tbird2340* /forum/post/21212649
> 
> 
> And generally how long of a mast can those hold?



10 feet is the conventional wisdom. I think a lot depends on the strength of the mast, 1-1/4" EMT makes for a very strong mast, and how well the mount is attached to the structure of the building.


I'm using two 8' sections of 1-1/4" EMT for mast overlapped by a couple of feet at the rotor and thrust bearing. So I am pushing the envelop.

http://www.tschmidt.com/writings/Des...%20antenna.htm 


I toggled bolted the Gable mount since we have a kind of unusual construction, stressed skin panels. Make sure the mount is rigidly attached to the structure. You want it attached to more then 1/2 OSB sheathing.


I spaced the brackets pretty far apart to provide more lateral support. The weakest part of the bracket is the arm that holds the mast and extends from the V portion that connects to the house.


Couple of years ago got hit with a freak wind storm that stripped shingles off the house. The only effect on the antennas was to slightly bend that piece causing the mast to be slightly out of plumb. All I had to do to fix it was put a pipe clamp on the extensions and bend them a little in the opposite direction.


The mast holds three antennas: Channel Master CM4228 UHF, Winegard YA-1713 VHF-hi, and a Winegard HD-6010 FM antenna along with a home weather station. So it has a reasonable amount of wind resistance and in fact you can watch is sway a little in the wind.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tschmidt* /forum/post/21216922
> 
> 
> 10 feet is the conventional wisdom. I think a lot depends on the strength of the mast, 1-1/4" EMT makes for a very strong mast, and how well the mount is attached to the structure of the building.
> 
> 
> I'm using two 8' sections of 1-1/4" EMT for mast overlapped by a couple of feet at the rotor and thrust bearing. So I am pushing the envelop.
> 
> http://www.tschmidt.com/writings/Des...%20antenna.htm
> 
> 
> I toggled bolted the Gable mount since we have a kind of unusual construction, stressed skin panels. Make sure the mount is rigidly attached to the structure. You want it attached to more then 1/2 OSB sheathing.
> 
> 
> I spaced the brackets pretty far apart to provide more lateral support. The weakest part of the bracket is the arm that holds the mast and extends from the V portion that connects to the house.
> 
> 
> Couple of years ago got hit with a freak wind storm that stripped shingles off the house. The only effect on the antennas was to slightly bend that piece causing the mast to be slightly out of plumb. All I had to do to fix it was put a pipe clamp on the extensions and bend them a little in the opposite direction.
> 
> 
> The mast holds three antennas: Channel Master CM4228 UHF, Winegard YA-1713 VHF-hi, and a Winegard HD-6010 FM antenna along with a home weather station. So it has a reasonable amount of wind resistance and in fact you can watch is sway a little in the wind.



Here is my mount that was put up some years ago for a 20 meter full size 3 element beam on a 5 foot 2 inch heavy wall tube. I now have the same mount/rotator turning only a YA-1713 and an HD9095 (both Winegard) but spaced up 10 feet with 4 feet separation. Note that the angle irons are bolted through the end rafters.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I'm using two 8' sections of 1-1/4" EMT for mast overlapped by a couple of feet at the rotor and thrust bearing. So I am pushing the envelop.



Heh, yeah youre pushing the envelope.


----------



## jdb1980

I am unable to post my results(??), but they are at

tvfool.com/

?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dec12101ff3931b


I had previously canceled my cable but I was getting a boatload of different free channels up til a few days ago when the cable guy must have re-encrypted them all??? I was getting high def (1080i & 720 p) as well as a number of sports channels, now I am down to maybe 6 channels.


Toronto, & the CN tower are a bit away from me , but with a large enough antenna I should be able to access it correct? Would


Any help would be greatly appreciated as I am going to be making a coat hanger antenna this weekend to try & tide me over !


Thanks a bunch!


Jeff


----------



## arxaw

With a large directional all-channel antenna , a high gain preamp and a rotor , you should be able to get analog channels 2 and above on your TVFool list. No digital channels shown on your TVFool are receivable at your location.


----------



## holl_ands

If you look at TVFool "Pending" channel list, Ch27 (CIII) plans to transition to digital

and Ch35 (CFTO) plans to start broadcasting in digital (if they haven't already).


CM-3020 only has UHF Gain of 8-10 dBd (10.2-12.2 dBi):
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg4.htm 

You would have a better chance of receiving several U.S. DTV Networks if you used

a higher Gain UHF-ONLY antenna mounted on top of a VHF-ONLY antenna, using

the separate HF and UHF input ports on a CM7777 Preamp. [Over water can help]:


UHF-ONLY: Antennas-Direct 91XG (11.8-17.4 dBi per A-D Simulation Results):
http://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_f...y/91XG-TDS.pdf 


VHF-ONLY: Antennacraft CS-900:
http://www.antennacraft.net/pdfs/CS900.pdf 

or Winegard HD-5030:
http://winegard.com/kbase/upload/HD-5030.pdf


----------



## romack991

Looking for some advice on a new antenna.


I was using a omni-directional from radioshack but a recent snow fall took it out. It got good reception 90% of the time. I have two cities 30 and 35 miles away. They are almost exactly 180deg apart. Channels I watch are 15, 16, 21, 22, 28, 33, 55.


I was thinking of getting the DB8. Looks like you can turn one side around or remove the rear reflectors to pick up signals both ways. Or would the CM4228HD be better?


TV Fool Report
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...ec121540c20eeb 


Thanks.


----------



## asdf916

Since I first got an HDTV 3-4 years ago, I've been lucky to have never require an antenna to get all of the OTA channels I want even through multiple moves (house in Sacramento, house in Davis, apartment in Sunnyvale); all I needed to do was connect a coaxial cable into the wall.


I've recently (just last night actually) moved to San Diego and I'm not so lucky this time around. I bought the RS budget antenna. I can get the CW (6-1), NBC (39-1), and Fox (69-1). I NEED CBS (8-1) and would like to have ABC (10-1). I'm on the ground floor of a 2 floor condo building and have a north-facing window. Any advice or indoor antenna recommendations are welcome!


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *asdf916* /forum/post/21297753
> 
> 
> Since I first got an HDTV 3-4 years ago, I've been lucky to have never require an antenna to get all of the OTA channels I want even through multiple moves (house in Sacramento, house in Davis, apartment in Sunnyvale); all I needed to do was connect a coaxial cable into the wall.
> 
> 
> I've recently (just last night actually) moved to San Diego and I'm not so lucky this time around. I bought the RS budget antenna. I can get the CW (6-1), NBC (39-1), and Fox (69-1). I NEED CBS (8-1) and would like to have ABC (10-1). I'm on the ground floor of a 2 floor condo building and have a north-facing window. Any advice or indoor antenna recommendations are welcome!



What sort of Radio Shack antenna are you using? Given that you need High Band VHF, you may be able to modify what you have and get results. I would think that rabbit ears pulled out half way and directed properly would work, too.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I was thinking of getting the DB8. Looks like you can turn one side around or remove the rear reflectors to pick up signals both ways. Or would the CM4228HD be better?



All your practical channels are UHF. I would build a reflectorless 4 bay bowtie or a reflectorless SBGH. Building a reflectorless SBGH is extremely easy, it just involves bending up 2 wires and mounting them on cheap electrical grey pvc pipe and 6 tees (you would need 10 tees for the reflectorless 4bay bowtie). Much more gain than your RS omni-directional and less wind resistance too. Gain forward is exactly the same backward.


Heres the latest optimized SBGH reflectorless, with interactive dimensions:
http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/gh_u/gh0_10u45.html


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I'm on the ground floor of a 2 floor condo building and have a north-facing window. Any advice or indoor antenna recommendations are welcome!



Due north window or a little north-east or northwest ? 2 edge stations from the ground floor are going to be especially tricky. It would be much better if the window pointed NW.

You could build the reflectorless SBGH with NARODs which would also get the vhf-hi stations.


Heres the latest optimized reflectorless SBGH with NARODs with interactive dimensions:
http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/g..._5V9_10u0.html


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *romack991* /forum/post/21297460
> 
> 
> Looking for some advice on a new antenna.
> 
> 
> I was using a omni-directional from radioshack but a recent snow fall took it out. It got good reception 90% of the time. I have two cities 30 and 35 miles away. They are almost exactly 180deg apart. Channels I watch are 15, 16, 21, 22, 28, 33, 55.
> 
> 
> I was thinking of getting the DB8. Looks like you can turn one side around or remove the rear reflectors to pick up signals both ways. Or would the CM4228HD be better?
> 
> 
> TV Fool Report
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...ec121540c20eeb
> 
> 
> Thanks.



I would get a 4221HD and remove the reflector. It is very easy to make that model bi-directional.


If you have long coax runs or splits to multiple TVs, add a preamp if your signal is low on some channels or outlets.


----------



## romack991




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/21298102
> 
> 
> Heres the latest optimized SBGH reflectorless, with interactive dimensions:
> http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/gh_u/gh0_10u45.html



So which version would likely preform the best? GH10? I assume all the designs have trade-offs, I just don't understand antennas to know what I'm gaining and what I'm losing with the specific designs.


Also to clarify, your recommending to just build the bent wire portion and not use the reflector bars shown on the designs.


----------



## ngsm13

For Christmas I'm looking into buying my father an HDTV antenna and pre-amp. He currently has Dish-network, and is looking to cut down on cost.


It will be mounted outside, in whatever location is best? I'm brand new to OTA HD programming and I've read a lot around here, LOTS of information.


Here is the TVFool report for his house:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...ec1233c40200a0 



http://imgur.com/AnFJR.png%5B/IMG%5D




What do you recommend for antenna, pre-amp, mounting direction/location?


Thanks a ton, everyone!


----------



## romack991




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *romack991* /forum/post/21299049
> 
> 
> So which version would likely preform the best? GH10? I assume all the designs have trade-offs, I just don't understand antennas to know what I'm gaining and what I'm losing with the specific designs.
> 
> 
> Also to clarify, your recommending to just build the bent wire portion and not use the reflector bars shown on the designs.



Well I had some old electrical wire laying around so I made a quick GH without reflectors and am picking up almost all the channels with good signal strength without a preamp and its raining.


----------



## arxaw

Normally, rain should not interfere with OTA reception.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ngsm13* /forum/post/21299398
> 
> 
> For Christmas I'm looking into buying my father an HDTV antenna and pre-amp.



If I had that TVFool, I would get a CM4221HD antenna .

Remove the reflector (horizontal bars on the back). This will make the antenna bi-directional.

Move the mounting bracket from the reflector to the antenna boom.

Mount the antenna on one of these. Or reuse your existing satellite dish J-mount and coax.

Aim the antenna SSW / NNE.

*If* the signal is weak on some channels, due to multiple splits or long coax runs, add this high input preamp before the splitter.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ngsm13* /forum/post/21299398
> 
> 
> For Christmas I'm looking into buying my father an HDTV antenna and pre-amp. He currently has Dish-network, and is looking to cut down on cost.
> 
> 
> It will be mounted outside, in whatever location is best? I'm brand new to OTA HD programming and I've read a lot around here, LOTS of information.
> 
> 
> Here is the TVFool report for his house:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...ec1233c40200a0
> 
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/AnFJR.png%5B/IMG%5D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you recommend for antenna, pre-amp, mounting direction/location?
> 
> 
> Thanks a ton, everyone!




I'm using a single bowtie mounted above the roof. I don't have a single transmitter within 30 miles , but I have duplicates of all the broadcast networks, and two different Public sevices. Plus several independents. I like simplicity. Unless you have obstructions nearby, the TVFool reports suggests you are a candidate for the same simplicity. A inside amp might be good, but you should try things without it. My TV Fool doesn't look as good as yours. Directing whatever you use between the two clusters of transmitters should do well. If you use an amp, be prepared for some shakedown. Some amps do not seem to work, some don't work. Unless you really need it, it is just another component that can go bad. My experience, which will be different from others, is to keep vendors out of the loop when possible. I have nothing against them, but find they can be more trouble than they are worth.


----------



## asdf916




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse* /forum/post/21298007
> 
> 
> What sort of Radio Shack antenna are you using? Given that you need High Band VHF, you may be able to modify what you have and get results. I would think that rabbit ears pulled out half way and directed properly would work, too.



It's the basic RS 1874 antenna. How can I modify it? I've tried pulling out the rabbit ears half way (and fully) and pointing it NW with no luck.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/21298102
> 
> 
> All your practical channels are UHF. I would build a reflectorless 4 bay bowtie or a reflectorless SBGH. Building a reflectorless SBGH is extremely easy, it just involves bending up 2 wires and mounting them on cheap electrical grey pvc pipe and 6 tees (you would need 10 tees for the reflectorless 4bay bowtie). Much more gain than your RS omni-directional and less wind resistance too. Gain forward is exactly the same backward.
> 
> 
> Heres the latest optimized SBGH reflectorless, with interactive dimensions:
> http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/gh_u/gh0_10u45.html



Unfortunately, I have no DIY skill and am not as tech savvy as many of you. Will getting the RCA ANT751 help me get these Hi-VHF channels? Keep in mind it will be kept indoors. Thanks!


----------



## arxaw

Is your building stucco? If so, you can probably forget reliable indoor VHF reception unless you have a window in the direction of the towers. There is no magic antenna or amplifier that will solve the problem.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Also to clarify, your recommending to just build the bent wire portion and not use the reflector bars shown on the designs.
> 
> Well I had some old electrical wire laying around so I made a quick GH without reflectors and am picking up almost all the channels with good signal strength without a preamp and its raining.



Yep, a reflectorless GH uhf only version is what I figured is all you need.











> Quote:
> I was using a omni-directional from radioshack but a recent snow fall took it out.



Was it amplified ? If so, maybe it still works and could be used with the GH to make up for the cable loss. You just need to figure out if the internal antenna of the thing was 75 or 300 ohms. The GH is a 300ohm antenna.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Normally, rain should not interfere with OTA reception.



If its pouring buckets it will completely wash out ALL channels, it happened to me once two summers ago, heh.


But yeah, a normal slow rain doesnt cause any problems.


----------



## difuse




asdf916 said:


> It's the basic RS 1874 antenna. How can I modify it? I've tried pulling out the rabbit ears half way (and fully) and pointing it NW with no luck.
> 
> 
> You may have hit a wall with conventional indoor antennas. Or, maybe not. Positioning a set of rabbit ears to recieve a DTV signal can be a challenge. There is no instant feedback.If you've found nothing, things are gonna be difficult. It will take several seconds for the tuner to understand it has a signal, if the signal is there. And, any available signal could be coming from what seems almost anywhere. Any solution now will be ugly. You might trip over a signal with the rabbit eras. That would mean keeping that exact position forever, a hard thing to do. Is there no way at all to get outside? If not, I have one more trick, one I will not offer except as a desperate measure.


----------



## ThoraX695




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ngsm13* /forum/post/21299398
> 
> 
> What do you recommend for antenna, pre-amp, mounting direction/location?



Hi. I'm from Cincinnati too!


I agree with arxaw's suggestion to remove the reflector. Many people in Cincinnati who have a legitimate shot to get the Dayton stations have done the same thing too. The only downside using that antenna is that it's not explicitly designed to get WKRC - the only channel on (high) VHF around here. However, many people haven't had problems getting WRKC. (They had more problems with WCPO before it went to RF 22.)


A preamp may do more harm than good with all of the strong stations around you. (WSTR usually doesn't overpower WCPO, but I'm not surprised that it does in Reading.) I would try it without a preamp first. You can always add one later.


If the bidirectional antenna doesn't work, you could get two separate antennas, point one towards Cincinnati and one towards Dayton and use an A/B switch to switch between them.


Good luck! Feel free to hop over to the Cincinnati thread if you have any other questions.


----------



## tyromark




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ThoraX695* /forum/post/21303395
> 
> 
> Hi. I'm from Cincinnati too!
> 
> 
> I agree with arxaw's suggestion to remove the reflector. Many people in Cincinnati who have a legitimate shot to get the Dayton stations have done the same thing too. The only downside using that antenna is that it's not explicitly designed to get WKRC - the only channel on (high) VHF around here. However, many people haven't had problems getting WRKC. (They had more problems with WCPO before it went to RF 22.)
> 
> 
> A preamp may do more harm than good with all of the strong stations around you. (WSTR usually doesn't overpower WCPO, but I'm not surprised that it does in Reading.) I would try it without a preamp first. You can always add one later.
> 
> 
> If the bidirectional antenna doesn't work, you could get two separate antennas, point one towards Cincinnati and one towards Dayton and use an A/B switch to switch between them.
> 
> 
> Good luck! Feel free to hop over to the Cincinnati thread if you have any other questions.



I concur, as well. I used the Winegard HDP-269 pre-amp in Anderson Township (where Cinti signal strength should have been lower than in Reading) and it didn't seem to overload the local channels' signal, but why start with one if you might be fine without it? If your father is on the hill in Reading, I imagine he will have a good shot at the Dayton signals (and those Bengals games on their CBS affiliate using RF41 when it's blacked out here); down in the valley? Maybe he would need the pre-amp then. Good luck!


----------



## montl

Hi I am looking for some advice for a new outdoor HDTV antenna.


I have a new home I am moving into later this month - this home is a mile from my last home - with better sight lines to the transmitting towers...below is the tv fool info:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...ec124d807c7f47 


I used a Winegard SS-1000 before and it worked - after several episodes of twisting and turning it to get both the main signals on the channels I want (8.1, 35.1, 46.1) The new home is higher up a hill and should have much better reception....I can petty much see the mountains where the towers are from my second floor and the antenna will be on the roof at this point.


With that in mind - do I need another SS-1000 or is there a better choice in an outdoor antenna now - or one that is cheaper that will work from my new location?


Thanks in advance:


P.S. I can't use an indoor antenna due to metal roof and stucco ext


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ThoraX695* /forum/post/21303395
> 
> 
> ...I agree with arxaw's suggestion to remove the reflector. Many people in Cincinnati who have a legitimate shot to get the Dayton stations have done the same thing too. The only downside using that antenna is that it's not explicitly designed to get WKRC - the only channel on (high) VHF around here...



With the OP's high signal strength on WKRC VHF 12, he should have no trouble receiving it with the 4228HD with reflector bars removed.


----------



## arxaw

A small unobtrusive RCA ANT751 should be all you need for your channels of interest. It is a well built antenna that should last for many years. It also comes with a J-mount to install it on wall that faces the towers; or roof or gable end of the house.

Point it about 220° or so, (compass direction).


----------



## jpasadena

At the San Francisco airport "Museum" there is an exhibition of vintage TV gear, including a beautiful collection of mint condition indoor antennas from the 50s an 60s. If you can't get there, check out the photos:

Exhibition with descriptions.

Antennas 

Caption


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jpasadena* /forum/post/21317101
> 
> 
> At the San Francisco airport "Museum" there is an exhibition of vintage TV gear, including a beautiful collection of mint condition indoor antennas from the 50s an 60s. If you can't get there, check out the photos:
> 
> Exhibition with descriptions.
> 
> Antennas
> 
> Caption



Thanks. The second from the left, center UHF portion, is a ...uh.....umm......FRACTAL.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The second from the left, center UHF portion, is a ...uh.....umm......FRACTAL.



Actually closer to a upwardly polarized zig zag lpda sized wrong.


----------



## holl_ands

I think it's nothing more than a FAT Vertical Monopole for Omni UHF,

where the (twisted?) vertical structure improves SWR vs a simple whip:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/dipoles/monopole


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> where the (twisted?) vertical structure



Look closely at the blow up. Its not twisted, just bent.



At the flea market today, I saw a pair of rabbit ears with a small plastic parabola in the middle for uhf. Upon closer inspection, it just had a simple wire around the outside of the plastic parabola, so it was just a plain uhf loop.


----------



## card16969

ok i am new to the whole ota antenna game, my father is getting ready to retire and wants to get rid of cable but keep cable internet. Because there will still be cable coming into the house and the qam tuner on the tv's all pick up a few channels will i gain any channels by adding a antenna... also is there any way to combine the channels coming in through cable and the channels from the antenna since it will be 2 different sources. Also is one antenna able to work for all 3 different tv's in the house sometimes 2 running at once.


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *card16969* /forum/post/21334971
> 
> 
> Because there will still be cable coming into the house and the qam tuner on the tv's all pick up a few channels



That's not always the case. In many areas if you have only cable internet you won't get any TV channels.



> Quote:
> also is there any way to combine the channels coming in through cable and the channels from the antenna since it will be 2 different sources.



Nope. You'll need 2 seperate cables.



> Quote:
> Also is one antenna able to work for all 3 different tv's in the house sometimes 2 running at once.



depends. You need to post a TVFool report before we can help you further


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *card16969* /forum/post/21334971
> 
> 
> ... Because there will still be cable coming into the house and the qam tuner on the tv's all pick up a few channels will i gain any channels by adding a antenna...



With a suitable antenna for your location, you can receive any main or sub channels your local cableco may not carry. Which ones, depends on what's available OTA and which ones your cableco carries.



> Quote:
> _...also is there any way to combine the channels coming in through cable and the channels from the antenna since it will be 2 different sources._



No, you will need separate cables to each TV and an A/B switch at each one to jump between the two sources.



> Quote:
> ._..Also is one antenna able to work for all 3 different tv's in the house sometimes 2 running at once._



You can connect multiple TVs to one antenna, providing the signal received is strong enough. Splitting the signal weakens it significantly, though. The weakening comes from splitting the signal, not how many TVs are on at any given moment. Depending on signal strength, you _may_ need to add a suitable preamp before the splits, or a distribution amplifier/splitter.


----------



## card16969

i had to go look for what tv fool was haha but heres what it came up with


----------



## card16969

sorry says i have to have 3 posts so its not working


----------



## card16969

 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...40338cb7aab33a


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *card16969* /forum/post/21336876
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...40338cb7aab33a



It would be good to see what you might have on the internet cable before looking to an antenna.


----------



## silvercity22

Currently using a DB2 antenna on the side of the house and would like better signal. Right now we are receiving 30-40% signal strength if we are lucky and about 5 local canadian channels including 2 American (sometimes up to 5 extra if we rescan). Would adding an amp. help increase signal strength? How about replacing the antenna with a better one one...and include an amp? Would a DB4 antenna be better? Should the antennas I look at be multi-directional? I guess MD means that it looks at different towers?


Here is the tv fool report....we normally receive 2, 6, 17, 10, 12, 15 (canadian) and sometimes 3.0001 3.0002 (american) and on the odd scan 5.0001 and 5.0002 (american)....and rarely on the "odder" scan vermont 33.0001/2/3/4

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...60b514edf3eda3


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *silvercity22* /forum/post/21348143
> 
> 
> Currently using a DB2 antenna on the side of the house and would like better signal. Right now we are receiving 30-40% signal strength if we are lucky and about 5 local canadian channels including 2 American (sometimes up to 5 extra if we rescan). Would adding an amp. help increase signal strength? How about replacing the antenna with a better one one...and include an amp? Would a DB4 antenna be better? Should the antennas I look at be multi-directional? I guess MD means that it looks at different towers?
> 
> 
> Here is the tv fool report....we normally receive 2, 6, 17, 10, 12, 15 (canadian) and sometimes 3.0001 3.0002 (american) and on the odd scan 5.0001 and 5.0002 (american)....and rarely on the "odder" scan vermont 33.0001/2/3/4
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...60b514edf3eda3



What you do will probably depend on how long you will be having the analog VHF stations available. If your recieving 2, 6, 10 and 12 OK, a DB4 probably won't hurt. Those are the VHF's, and if you want a better signal, you might hunt an old used antenna to pick them up. You will probably lose those stations eventually, and then the DB4 would be good. But I wouldn't get the DB4 now unless your receptio on the DB2 is OK for the VHF stations. That make any sense? As for the odd scans, a rotor will help. When you get good atmospherics you can get them in the scan. Then do not rescan, but use the rotor to turn the antenna correctly. Or you could try a multidirectional antenna, and you might, or might not get good results. What stations do you absolutely want?


----------



## silvercity22




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse* /forum/post/21348573
> 
> 
> What you do will probably depend on how long you will be having the analog VHF stations available. If your recieving 2, 6, 10 and 12 OK, a DB4 probably won't hurt. Those are the VHF's, and if you want a better signal, you might hunt an old used antenna to pick them up. You will probably lose those stations eventually, and then the DB4 would be good. But I wouldn't get the DB4 now unless your receptio on the DB2 is OK for the VHF stations. That make any sense? As for the odd scans, a rotor will help. When you get good atmospherics you can get them in the scan. Then do not rescan, but use the rotor to turn the antenna correctly. Or you could try a multidirectional antenna, and you might, or might not get good results. What stations do you absolutely want?



Thanks for your reply...but I'm a bit confused







The 2, 6, 10, 12 are actually 2.0001, 6.0001, 10.001, 12.001....I don't think they are analog signals....aren't these digital? I receive those channels clear but most of the time I get digital signal low...so I'd like to boost the signal. Main goal is to get 2.0001, 6.0001, 10.001, 12.001, 15.001...the local canadian channels and if possible 3.001/2 and 5.001/2 (american) which we get sometimes. Why would a rotor help and not an amp? Wouldn't an amp help boost signal? Note that the current antenna is on the side of the cabin and there are alot of trees around..it's in the country.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *silvercity22* /forum/post/21356676
> 
> 
> Thanks for your reply...but I'm a bit confused
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 2, 6, 10, 12 are actually 2.0001, 6.0001, 10.001, 12.001....I don't think they are analog signals....aren't these digital? I receive those channels clear but most of the time I get digital signal low...so I'd like to boost the signal. Main goal is to get 2.0001, 6.0001, 10.001, 12.001, 15.001...the local canadian channels and if possible 3.001/2 and 5.001/2 (american) which we get sometimes. Why would a rotor help and not an amp? Wouldn't an amp help boost signal? Note that the current antenna is on the side of the cabin and there are alot of trees around..it's in the country.



TV FOOL might not be current; the chart seemed in indicate they were analog. The rotor would be useful as the antenna you are using is somewhat directional. Generally the first thing to do to recieve a weaker signal is to point the antenna to the transmitter. An amp wll only help if the signal is present and steady. An amp might be the second step. The trees don't help, and may argue for the rotor, to find a duct through them. Of the options, I'd rank using a rotor as 1st, putting up a second antenna pointed generally toward desired stations and joining the two antennas as 2nd,

adding an amp as 3rd. If you could buy some things to experiment that you could return, that would be good. Almost everybody's reception situation is different, no one solution is possible.


----------



## montl




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21310218
> 
> 
> A small unobtrusive RCA ANT751 should be all you need for your channels of interest. It is a well built antenna that should last for many years. It also comes with a J-mount to install it on wall that faces the towers; or roof or gable end of the house.
> 
> Point it about 220° or so, (compass direction).



I have the antenna suggested above - thanks.


Just want to make sure on the direction - 220° compass direction is aprox 90° away from pointing the antenna right at the 2 towers...Is that right?


Just want to make sure, so I am not up on the roof too much asking my wife "is that better?" !!!


Thanks again - this antenna looks like a great fit. I won't be installing it till we get power hooked up sometime next week hopefully.


----------



## arxaw

montl,

Looking back at your TVFool, it appears you should aim at *~117°* compass direction, *not* 220°, as I previously typed. I do apologize for that error!



.

.


----------



## Mister B




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse* /forum/post/21358084
> 
> 
> TV FOOL might not be current; the chart seemed in indicate they were analog. The rotor would be useful as the antenna you are using is somewhat directional. Generally the first thing to do to recieve a weaker signal is to point the antenna to the transmitter. An amp wll only help if the signal is present and steady. An amp might be the second step. The trees don't help, and may argue for the rotor, to find a duct through them. Of the options, I'd rank using a rotor as 1st, putting up a second antenna pointed generally toward desired stations and joining the two antennas as 2nd,
> 
> adding an amp as 3rd. If you could buy some things to experiment that you could return, that would be good. Almost everybody's reception situation is different, no one solution is possible.



According to Wikipedia, CBFT is digital on channel 19, CBMT is on 21, CIVM is on 26, CFTM on 10 and CFCF is on 12.

I am curious about the odd channel numbers being discussed with four digits after the decimal place. I have only seen that type of nomenclature with cable TV. Is it specific to some unusual tuner?

If it were me, I would get a large UHF/Vhf High and put it on a high mounted rotor and try for everything in the area.


----------



## rickthestick

I would like to cut the cable or dish network in my case...what would the experts suggest with this report?

Antenna. amps, anything?


Thanks!

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...40330e7da04b19


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rickthestick* /forum/post/21363385
> 
> 
> I would like to cut the cable or dish network in my case...what would the experts suggest with this report?
> 
> Antenna. amps, anything?
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...40330e7da04b19



1. Move

2. Experiment with different antenna heights to see whether you can improve signal strength with a height you can live with,


----------



## AntAltMike

FWIW, I tried this location in your city that I got from Wikipedia, and I got signal strengths about 30dB better than your table showed, and curiously, they were about the same at 100 feet as at the 14 foot height that you used.


41.510192

-112.015011

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...4033664d28a320


----------



## rickthestick

I am right along the mountain, and may not have the best line to the SLC area where most of the signals come from. And moving isn't a viable option...lol


----------



## arxaw

Another option to investigate; ask a local dish retailer if they still offers a locals-only package.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rickthestick* /forum/post/21363385
> 
> 
> I would like to cut the cable or dish network in my case...what would the experts suggest with this report?
> 
> Antenna. amps, anything?
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...40330e7da04b19



Are you actually trying to use an antenna now?


----------



## holl_ands

Can you locate a very high Gain UHF antenna & high Gain Preamp on

top of a nearby hill and then run a long length of coax to your house?

TVFool might not have enough resolution to show the difference, so

could you give us some accurate coordinates for that location?


----------



## rickthestick

I guess that is what I am asking, what equipment (ant, amp) is the best to get weak signal? I do not have any now, just dish network. I have an indoor, and it only gets the chan 12 from that list of chan on tvfool.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rickthestick* /forum/post/21365114
> 
> 
> I guess that is what I am asking, what equipment (ant, amp) is the best to get weak signal? I do not have any now, just dish network. I have an indoor, and it only gets the chan 12 from that list of chan on tvfool.



That's useful information. If it were I, the next step would be to get a cheep antenna, like a Radio Shack single bowtie, and get it up a few yards outside on a pole or tree limb, in such a way it could be turned. It will take a while, but a search for the SLT stations should be made. If you can get a steady picture, even if broken at times, or pixilateing, on any of them over a period of days( as atmospherics could get you almost anything for a few minutes), then I'd procede with a more permanent arrangement. Remember when turning the antenna, the reciever will not act immediately to a signal, as was the case with analog. Its possible you are completely "over the cliff" and nothing can be done. It's also possible you can recieve some stations. I think I'd want some proof reception could be had before buying a lot of stuff.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rickthestick* /forum/post/21365114
> 
> 
> I guess that is what I am asking, what equipment (ant, amp) is the best to get weak signal?



In answer to your question, in your particular case, probably:

A UHF antenna like this one:
http://www.abilityhdtv.com/product-i...nna-pid58.html 

And a super low-noise preamp like this one:
http://www.abilityhdtv.com/product-l...pg1-cid42.html 


Assuming you can get some elevation. Change the elevation in your TVFool, to see the difference it will make.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21365623
> 
> 
> In answer to your question, in your particular case, probably:
> 
> A UHF antenna like this one:
> http://www.abilityhdtv.com/product-i...nna-pid58.html
> 
> And a super low-noise preamp like this one:
> http://www.abilityhdtv.com/product-l...pg1-cid42.html
> 
> 
> Assuming you can get some elevation. Change the elevation in your TVFool, to see the difference it will make.



Your height of 14 feet implies that you are planning on using this indoors, which will make your bad reception situation worse. You really need to use exact map coordinates, and if possible, height experimentation to enable us to see how dire your circumstances are, but if your TV fool results are that poor, then you probably should start with the antenna that arxaw recommended, but unless you are made of money, you should try an Electroline model EDA 2100, 15dB amplifier as your preamp. It's noise figure will be about 2dB or so higher, but it only costs $15.10 plus $10 shipping if bought here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/ELECTROLINE-...item2a05fb26df . You can also insert a UVSJ diplexer, which is a $3 part, installed as a high-pass filter if placed ahead of the preamp, if a good antenna and a cheap preamp don't get you the results you desire before you consider splurging for the ultra low noise, $150 preamp.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Your height of 14 feet implies that you are planning on using this indoors, which will make your bad reception situation worse.



Absolutely. Thats one of the worst TVFools Ive seen for an English speaking person, and Ive seen some really bad ones, heh.



rickthestick, try playing with entering higher heights in TVFool and see what happens.


Rather than spending big money on an antenna, try building one yourself.


----------



## Dave Loudin

Umm, take a look at the path profile for any of the blocked stations (click on any entry in the table.) That terrain blockage is pretty severe.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

The western shoulder of Grizzley Peak is about 1400' higher than your elevation and is only about 4-5 miles south of you in your line of sight.


UHF signals from 60 miles away do not have enough power (or distance) left to diffract enough to overcome this obstacle to your location (near intersection of N Highland and Karleen, 41.511156,-111.99508 or so).


You are effectively blocked by terrain.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/21366740
> 
> 
> ...Thats one of the worst TVFools Ive seen for an English speaking person, and Ive seen some really bad ones, heh.



We have some pretty bad ones around here, too. This one's about an hour South of my home. !


----------



## holl_ands

Entering those coordinates into TVFool's "On-Line TV Maps" reveals the problem.

Unfortunately, going as high as a 100-ft tower didn't help....NM actually got WORSE.

So you're right at the edge of barely working (sometimes)...and fergetaboutit.....


=======================================================

Give COMCAST a call and ask for the price of "Limited Basic", which is JUST the local

Analog and Digital (HD if available) channels plus a few government & shopping.

Typically it costs between $12 and $25 and the cable companies don't make it easy

to determine the cost of this Federally Mandated budget offering:
https://www.comcast.com/customers/cl...CRedirect=true 


Any TV can display the low-rez Analog channels, but your HDTV will need to support

"Clear QAM" (in addition to ATSC) in order to view the HD channels....if not, you'll

need to pay the additional monthly cost for a Converter Box (COMCAST may have a

lower cost alternative for this tier)....or buy an external HD-STB OTA Tuner or HD-DVR.


BTW: Some COMCAST systems are *ALL DIGITAL*, which means a small, low-cost

Digital Transport Adapter (DTA) is required for ALL Analog TVs and a Hi-Def Cable

Converter box for HDTVs. Or buy an HD-STB or HD-DVR (like TiVo).


Fol. shows a monthly price of $17.95 for what they call "Basic Cable"....but they

don't explain exactly what that is (just "Limited Basic"??? Or perhaps this is the ADDED

cost on TOP of the cost of "Limited Basic" for a bunch more channels???).

The link to a channel list goes to the comprehensive channel list, which does NOT include

a "Basic Cable" pull-down item.....see, they just don't want you to know what's what:
https://www.comcast.com/shop/buyflow...able&&Inflow=1


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21365623
> 
> 
> A UHF antenna like this one:
> http://www.abilityhdtv.com/product-i...nna-pid58.html



That antenna is worth trying, as is an Antennas Direct 91XG.


I predict that signals will be slightly stronger than calculated by TVfool, but multipath will be prevalent. The trick will be finding the optimum height and location for the antenna. That height will not be the same for all channels. If you optimize CBS on channel 34 you'd be most likely to find a compromise that works on more channels.


Read this for clues on selecting the best location to begin your quest.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html 


In your case the upward tilt calculates to 4.6°. You can physically tilt the antenna upwards, or lower it until the takeoff angle equals 4.6°. On channel 34 that calculates to an antenna height of 5'. The second lobe will fall at 4.6° with an antenna height of 15'. If the land in front of your antenna slopes down, lower the antenna. If it slopes up, try raising the antenna. The height of 5' is most likely to work on the channels furthest from 34. Pick a site with the flattest land in front of the antenna and no obstructions.


----------



## Dave Loudin

Pretty slim pickings from my parents' house in central WV.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dave Loudin* /forum/post/21369759
> 
> 
> Pretty slim pickings from my parents' house in central WV.



Ayup!


----------



## silvercity22




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse* /forum/post/21358084
> 
> 
> TV FOOL might not be current; the chart seemed in indicate they were analog. The rotor would be useful as the antenna you are using is somewhat directional. Generally the first thing to do to recieve a weaker signal is to point the antenna to the transmitter. An amp wll only help if the signal is present and steady. An amp might be the second step. The trees don't help, and may argue for the rotor, to find a duct through them. Of the options, I'd rank using a rotor as 1st, putting up a second antenna pointed generally toward desired stations and joining the two antennas as 2nd,
> 
> adding an amp as 3rd. If you could buy some things to experiment that you could return, that would be good. Almost everybody's reception situation is different, no one solution is possible.



Thanks for the advice.


If I buy the DB4 or CM 4221 antenna what would happen? Better signal, more channels? Any difference between the two models I mentioned? Someone also mentioned to look into the CM 7778 amp? Any thoughts?


Thanks again....(santa will be nice to you for all your help lol)


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *silvercity22* /forum/post/21370622
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice.
> 
> 
> If I buy the DB4 or CM 4221 antenna what would happen? Better signal, more channels? Any difference between the two models I mentioned? Someone also mentioned to look into the CM 7778 amp? Any thoughts?
> 
> 
> Thanks again....(santa will be nice to you for all your help lol)



You have had some good advice on amps. Providing any one you use actually works, it can't hurt. You don't have signals strong enough to create any problems. You're getting stations now, if you acquire a new antenna, it should probably be aimed at the stations you want, but don't have, and, joined with the old one by a splitter/combiner. Experiment with direction and height and you may surprise yourself with what you can get. I'd like to hear about what you do and how it works.


----------



## rupes

I am on the second floor of a two family house and have access to the attic above me. Roof has one layer of asphalt shingles. It seems that in my area I only need to worry about UHF and it seems I can get away with a uni-directional antenna. Looking for specific recommendations for antenna to mount in the attic.


Thanks in advance

Rupert


Here is my TVFOOL


----------



## AntAltMike

Have you tried a paper clip?


----------



## zarg7883

Looks like if you use any sort of gain antenna you might overload it. Point it northward to maybe get the ones in that direction, and let the strong locals come in off the back?


----------



## ProjectSHO89

If the paper clip or a simple loop antenna doesn't work well, most likely due to multi-path, use a small UHF Yagi plus a variable attenuator (if needed).


----------



## arxaw

If the straightened out paper clip stuck in the coax port doesn't work, one of these hanging off the back of the TV should work. Or one of these (unscrew/remove the dipole rods and just use the UHF loop).


Whatever you do, do _not_ buy any sort of amplified antenna. As others said, your signals are strong and you may actually need an attenuator to bring the signal level down a bit.


----------



## difuse




rupes said:


> I am on the second floor of a two family house and have access to the attic above me. Roof has one layer of asphalt shingles. It seems that in my area I only need to worry about UHF and it seems I can get away with a uni-directional antenna. Looking for specific recommendations for antenna to mount in the attic.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Rupert
> 
> 
> Get a piece of coax long enough to run from the attic to the TV. Cut off the connector of the coax attic end leaving about three inches on the connector. Strip off the outer layer of insulation down on the bare end of cable about 6 inches. Pull the outer conductor, foil and mesh, down to the bottom of the insulation cut, making a wad of foil and or mesh.. The inner conductor will still be insulated and will extend about 5 inches from the wad.. Tape the wad of outer conductor to an upright in the attic so the inner conductor (still insulated) is pointing up. Attach the other end of the cable to the TV and do a scan. You will probably have all you want as to stations. If not satisfied, the attic cable end can be spilced on and you can proceed with something else. This sort of antenna, simple and not very directional, generally supplies very stable reception.


----------



## rupes

Thanks everyone.

Rupert


----------



## gcd0865

Rupert:


Since channels 27, 29 and 38 are located at nearly 90 degrees off-axis relative to most of your other stations, it will be difficult to receive those stations reliably with a single fixed-position attic antenna that is oriented broadside to the Boston stations. Putting those stations aside for the moment, for lowest cost, and in the attic, you might consider building your own simple UHF bowtie antenna from plans such as these:

http://www.tvantennaplans.com 
http://www.diytvantennas.com/bowtie.html 


A purchased antenna alternative would be a 4-bay bowtie antenna like a DB4. Orient the antenna to face broadside to the Boston stations (around 171 degrees), mount as high as possible in the attic, and you should be just fine, at low cost. If you oriented this antenna to face 181 degrees, it might also receive 51 and 49 while still receiving the Boston stations just fine.


If you're also interested in receiving channels 12, 13 and 10, a Winegard YA-1713 aimed at 181 degrees, and joined to your UHF antenna using a special UVSJ VHF-UHF signal combiner would probably work well. If the 4-bay UHF antenna (either the homemade or purchased kind) did not receive 51 or 49 well, an 8-bay UHF version like a DB8 would likely be required. For this reason, the cheap and easy homemade UHF antenna is a great way to start.


Hope this is helpful - good luck !


----------



## holl_ands

If you WANT to receive Ch27,29,28 (two are Spanish language, third unknown)

all you have to do is "point" the NULLs of the 1-Bay Bowtie (mentioned in post#12521)

towards 45-deg (and 225-deg), where there are NO stations. The very broadband

antenna pattern will cover ALL of the remaining directions:
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...0470%20MHz.jpg 


BTW: The *WAY TOO SMALL* 4-Bay Bowtie described in www.antennaplans.com 

is NOT AT ALL SUITED for the NEW UHF Band....it's only good on the Old channels

that are no longer used for TV. See comparisons of "UTube Defect" to any of the

other 4-Bay antennas....although the Old DB4 is also TOO SMALL:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/mult...y/chartsnorefl 
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bay 
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay


----------



## Dave Loudin

PLEASE use http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweather.com/index.html for do-it-yourself bowtie antennas. This design is an evolution of the defective YouTube design.


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gcd0865* /forum/post/21392872
> 
> 
> Putting those stations aside for the moment, for lowest cost, and in the attic, you might consider building your own simple UHF bowtie antenna from plans such as these:
> 
> http://www.tvantennaplans.com
> http://www.diytvantennas.com/bowtie.html


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BCF68* /forum/post/21398395



Hey, that's on my desktop here at work with slightly different text that reads "For when one facepalm doesn't cut it!"


----------



## Larry Kenney

What a big difference a little height can make! I've had a Channel Master 4228 and an

Antennacraft Y-10-7-13 combination on my roof for several years, along with another 4228 on a separate mast for the bedroom TV. All were about 12 to 15 feet above the roof... 10 foot mast, rotor and short upper mast where the antennas were mounted.


I recently had a crew come and check things over and change the guy wires. The head of the company recommended that the masts be changed as well since the old ones were getting pretty rusty.


They installed new 20 foot variable height masts and then adjusted the height of the antennas for best reception of the most distant stations, the Sacramento/Stockton stations transmitting from Walnut Grove about 65 miles away on the other side of a 1000 foot ridge.


The signals from these distant stations are now as much as 6 to 7 dB stronger than they used to be. Same antennas, same coax run, just some added height adjusted for best reception. They found a nice "hot spot" about 17 feet above the roof that was better than the full 20 foot height.


After scanning, rotating the antennas and adding more channels to my list of stations, I ended up with a total of 30. If you count each sub-channel as a separate channel I now get 96 stations without the use of any pre-amps. I can't use one here as I'm only 3/4 of a mile from Sutro Tower.


To see some photos of my installation and a list of stations received, take a look at:
http://www.larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html 


Larry

San Francisco


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> They installed new 20 foot variable height masts and then adjusted the height of the antennas for best reception



Post some pictures of the variable height mast.










Is it two masts, one inside the other with bolt holes thru them ?


----------



## arxaw

Possibly one of these .

They also have a 30-footer .


----------



## AntAltMike

Back when the dealer store antenna sales were more robust, Channel Master used to send a truck to its dealers once a month, and so if you ordered a telescoping mast and waited for the monthly delivery, there would be no shipping charge. I don't know if they still have that policy.


EBay has lots of telescoping masts available and can list them by nearest distance first, so someone might pay a few bucks more than the lowest internet price while saving the shipping cost but unfortunately, the nearest eBay telescoping mast from San Francisco is 250 miles.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/21423418
> 
> 
> Post some pictures of the variable height mast.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it two masts, one inside the other with bolt holes thru them ?



The masts they installed look exactly like the ones that arxaw posted links to. I don't know what brand of mast was used, though.


The installer said he doesn't trust the stops provided, so after the antenna height was determined he inserted two self-threading screws into each mast.


Larry

SF


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> The installer said he doesn't trust the stops provided, so after the antenna height was determined he inserted two self-threading screws into each mast.



I dont blame him, they look like just set screws to keep the mast sections in place. If they wiggle loose over time, the mast sections would slide into each other.


----------



## irishprince317

 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7fb9d3267a88bb I need to know how I can hook up 2 Antennas I want all the Channels in the green but also Want WUND 2 out of NC with out rotating my antenna everytime , I had a neighbor accross the street who has 2 ota Ant pointing in oppisite directions wondering if they make a Antenna signal combiner to bring the signal into on cable...thanks


----------



## mikepier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irishprince317* /forum/post/21432275
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7fb9d3267a88bb I need to know how I can hook up 2 Antennas I want all the Channels in the green but also Want WUND 2 out of NC with out rotating my antenna everytime , I had a neighbor accross the street who has 2 ota Ant pointing in oppisite directions wondering if they make a Antenna signal combiner to bring the signal into on cable...thanks



Can you get WUND at all with 1 antenna? It is about 68 miles away with 2 edge reception. Might be a challenge.

Do you know if your neighbor was able to get the channel?


----------



## irishprince317




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mikepier* /forum/post/21432317
> 
> 
> Can you get WUND at all with 1 antenna? It is about 68 miles away with 2 edge reception. Might be a challenge.
> 
> Do you know if your neighbor was able to get the channel?



yes I pull it in at 85 % , but I have to rotate my ant.. when I point toward norfolk.. also WSKY 4 fades in and out.. so I was hoping by pointing a second antenna would fix this


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irishprince317* /forum/post/21432275
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7fb9d3267a88bb I need to know how I can hook up 2 Antennas I want all the Channels in the green but also Want WUND 2 out of NC with out rotating my antenna everytime , I had a neighbor accross the street who has 2 ota Ant pointing in oppisite directions wondering if they make a Antenna signal combiner to bring the signal into on cable...thanks



What sort of antenna are you now using?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I had a neighbor accross the street who has 2 ota Ant pointing in oppisite directions wondering if they make a Antenna signal combiner to bring the signal into on cable...thanks



Combining two antennas pointing in different directions will subtract gain from both.

For reliable reception of WUND, youll want to have 2 antennas with 2 coax downleads into an A-B switch at the TV. Cheaper and faster than a rotor.


----------



## WRGB EngDept




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *irishprince317* /forum/post/21432275
> 
> 
> Want WUND 2 out of NC with out rotating my antenna everytime.



Try a channel 20 Jointenna.
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Ant...Jointennas.htm


----------



## irishprince317

thanks for the help


----------



## stgdz

 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...67d9c2f4775255 


so are the 4 bay bowties out of vogue now? I was going to put on in the attic.


----------



## arxaw

You have two VHF-HI channels (NBC & FOX). The 4bay bowties are mainly for UHF. They will sometimes work for VHF-HI, but usually the signals must be fairly strong.


Also, attic or other indoor reception of VHF channels is sometimes much more difficult than UHF, because UHF penetrates building materials more easily. In your attic, I would get an antenna designed for both VHF & UHF.


----------



## 300ohm

If you stick a wide reflector (36" wide is good, anything over 28" may be fine too) on your 4 bay bowtie, you should get 9 and 11. If you dont, then youll need a more powerful vhf-hi antenna.

For an attic, you could use a piece of cardboard or plywood with aluminum foil. Or even better, after looking over your speaker build, if you have some of that thermax sheathing left over, it will do.


----------



## arxaw

If you have any thermax (foil) in the attic, your antenna may not work well at all up there.


----------



## montl

Thanks to the help pasted in below - I was able to get all stations first try - no adjustments or anything. Thanks again!!!

_Originally Posted by arxaw

A small unobtrusive RCA ANT751 should be all you need for your channels of interest. It is a well built antenna that should last for many years. It also comes with a J-mount to install it on wall that faces the towers; or roof or gable end of the house.

Point it about 220° (117) or so, (compass direction)._


----------



## arxaw

montl,

Thanks for posting your results. It's always good to hear how things turn out.


----------



## stgdz

So I am thinking a gray hiverman for the uhf band
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=81982 

Is a good bet foe me.


I haven't looked through the tophat stuff yet but would that get me the vhf-hi bands?


----------



## arxaw

Impossible to predict attic reception. It might work, though.


Is there thermax up there?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I haven't looked through the tophat stuff yet but would that get me the vhf-hi bands?



Yes. The latest optimized models are here:

http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/gh_n3_uV.html 


As you can see, the NAROD with NAROD reflector models compete very favorably with the vhf-hi antennas listed here :
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


In an attic, you lose from 6 to 25+ db in gain, no matter the antenna.


----------



## notmuchrf

Hi,

I live in a valley 45 miles or so from stations with very fringe reception. I put up a 40 foot tower with XG91 antenna and Channel Master CM7777 preamp. For a long time my digital channel 19 was always solid but recently I have been having dropouts. I do have a rotator on this setup and according to the signal meter on the TV it will be 3/4 scale but every so often go to zero and dropout for awhile then come back up.


My channel 31 does the same thing and sometimes is not there at all. I realize this might be from conditions and also every time an airplane flies between my location and the transmitters.


Since XG91 is so high gain , does anyone think that using an 8bay type uhf antenna will help my reception ? I climbed up the tower a couple weeks ago and checked all my coax connections to try and rule that out ( thanks to warm January in Wisconsin weather !) .


This is my TV Fool report

h ttp:// www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d67d9dd7a9f0ebe 


Thank you for any help .


----------



## stgdz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21513059
> 
> 
> Impossible to predict attic reception. It might work, though.
> 
> 
> Is there thermax up there?



haven't peeked up there, but will tonight. I think the thermax was just lined on the walls and fiberglass in the attic.

I am kinda stuck with my setup, its really windy around here and I believe we have hit 50mph winds or to the point where the attic shakes. I don't want to put one on the roof but if I did I could put a whole bunch of nerd toys up there like some weather gear or a wifi antenna.


it is tempting.


edit-no thermax, just yellow fiberglass


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> For a long time my digital channel 19 was always solid but recently I have been having dropouts. I do have a rotator on this setup and according to the signal meter on the TV it will be 3/4 scale but every so often go to zero and dropout for awhile then come back up.
> 
> 
> My channel 31 does the same thing and sometimes is not there at all. I realize this might be from conditions and also every time an airplane flies between my location and the transmitters.



Thats pretty much symptomatic with 2 edge, negative NM channels.


What can help is to tilt the antenna so it aims towards the top of the hill.


For airplane flutter, vertical stacking can help reduce the effects, plus give about another 2.5 dbi in gain.



> Quote:
> does anyone think that using an 8bay type uhf antenna will help my reception ?



Since those channels are real RF 30 and 48, nope. It would be more cost effective to stack what you already have.


----------



## Konrad2

> attic or other indoor reception of VHF channels is sometimes much

> more difficult than UHF, because UHF penetrates building materials

> more easily


This is incorrect. Building materials (and trees, etc.) attenuate

higher frequencies more than lower frequencies. UHF is higher frequency

than VHF. Some materials attenuate more than others.


It *might* be that UHF can get through a hole (like a window)

that a lower frequency signal (like VHF) can't. Compare the

width of a VHF-LO antenna with the width of a typical window.

Just a theory, I haven't tested it.


> I would get an antenna designed for both VHF & UHF


Seperate antennas work better than a combo.


Antennas with good reputations that are worth considering:

VHF-HI:

Antennacraft Y10-7-13

Weingard YA-1713 http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w1713.html 

UHF:

AntennasDirect DB8 http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB8.html 

AntennasDirect XG91 http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html 

Channel Master 4228 http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html 

Weingard PR-8800 http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w8800.html 


Some of these have changed names and/or designs. I think the PR-8800

is called something else now, and the 4228 was redesigned somewhat.


If you want to keep the new antenna in the attic, be sure and measure

the space available and make sure your chosen antenna will fit.


----------



## Konrad2

> every time an airplane flies between my location and the transmitters


Creating dynamic multipath, which demodulators have trouble with.


If the flight path is directly between you and the transmitter,

the main thing I can suggest is to try different demodulators

hoping to find one that handles dynamic multipath better.


You can try aiming the antenna lower/higher, or left/right, depending

on where the flight path is.


If the flight path is not directly between you and the transmitter,

read up on the "two antenna trick" (hdtvprimer.com) and try and aim

a null at the flight path.


> Since XG91 is so high gain , does anyone think that using an 8bay

> type uhf antenna will help my reception ?


The 8800 has more net gain at lower frequencies, but less at higher

frequencies. Only slightly more at RF30, less at RF48. I have the

8800 in my attic, it does well, but in hindsight I'd rather have the

XG91 for more gain at higher freqs. The 8 bays have different

radiation patterns than the yagi XG91. The different radiation pattern

might help, although I suspect you'd be better off getting another XG91

and trying the two antenna trick.


----------



## arxaw

Indoor reception of VHF is more difficult than UHF. UHF can pass through a window or other opening easier than the longer wavelength VHF. In addition to difficulty in "finding a way in the building" VHF is much more prone to dropouts from electrical interference common in many buildings, than UHF.


----------



## Konrad2

> Indoor reception of VHF is more difficult than UHF. UHF can pass through

> a window or other opening easier than the longer wavelength VHF. In

> addition to difficulty in "finding a way in the building" VHF is much

> more prone to dropouts from electrical interference common in many

> buildings, than UHF.


It depends on the building. If the walls attenuate UHF a lot, but

don't attenuate VHF much, VHF can come in well, but UHF poorly.

If the walls attenuate VHF a lot as well as UHF, but there are holes

(doors/windows) large enough for UHF but not VHF, you might have the

opposite.


----------



## stgdz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/21513137
> 
> 
> Yes. The latest optimized models are here:
> 
> http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/gh_n3_uV.html
> 
> 
> As you can see, the NAROD with NAROD reflector models compete very favorably with the vhf-hi antennas listed here :
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
> 
> 
> In an attic, you lose from 6 to 25+ db in gain, no matter the antenna.



I'm kinda confused by these, I was looking at this guy http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/g...6V9_14u65.html but I have no idea what those green lines indicate. I was just wanted to use a sheet of aluminum foil for a reflector on a hardboard.


----------



## 300ohm

The green lines are individual 1/4" diameter reflector rods.


On the GH NAROD models, NARODs provide the vhf-hi gain, only work with rod reflectors. The mesh and aluminum foil GH models are strictly uhf only.


The original SBGH with a 30" X 40" aluminum foil reflector works great for uhf.
http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/design.htm 

Just follow the dimensions for the element, 7 inch legs, 5.6 inch stubs ( the feed point could be increased from 44 mm to about 90 mm for a bit additional gain). Make a 30"X40" cardboard reflector, cover it in aluminum foil (leaving a 1 inch vertical slit in the middle for additional gain) and space it 100 mm behind the elements. Attach balun in the middle of the elements and youre done.


----------



## stgdz

Thanks balun, I figured out after posting the regular one may be the best at first. One if my neighbors had a big ass antenna on his roof and got a good ***** of channels. Fox and nbc are ones that I am going to want so I most likely will need a roof mount.


Are amps generally frowned upon when dealing with this stuff? Also how thick of a coax connection is needed? Improved some cables are flimsier than others. I would guess we want a stiff one.


----------



## clarkf

Hi all.


Love the thread.


My office is in Irvine Ca 45 mi from LA and 65 from SD. I am in a cement building with tons of computers.

I bought a HDTV box at w mart to go with a 10 year old 13" TV.


To just try it out I got the middle priced indoor rabbit ear antenna with a 6" square in the middle, a Phillips sdv6122/27 powered antenna. It was about 16 bucks and looks just like Quantum Amplified Powered HD/DTV/UHF/VHF/FM 230° Rotating Digital TV Antenna. The antenna sits on a plastic shelf 6 foot high 4 foot over the TV.


I was shocked to have gotten 60 channels. I am getting FOX SD on 11.? and Fox LA. As both LA and SD are in a line I don't have to move the antenna.

I have screened out the info channels and the languages I don't speak and still get 35+

I don't know if I have a freak or what but I love it.


It worked so good I bought a 24" flat screen and I now get a few extra channels.


I would love to hear opinions if I can do better. I told my son I would send an antenna to him at NC State.


Thanks


----------



## mikepier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *clarkf* /forum/post/21537936
> 
> 
> Hi all.
> 
> 
> Love the thread.
> 
> 
> My office is in Irvine Ca 45 mi from LA and 65 from SD. I am in a cement building with tons of computers.
> 
> I bought a HDTV box at w mart to go with a 10 year old 13" TV.
> 
> 
> To just try it out I got the middle priced indoor rabbit ear antenna with a 6" square in the middle, a Phillips sdv6122/27 powered antenna. It was about 16 bucks and looks just like Quantum Amplified Powered HD/DTV/UHF/VHF/FM 230° Rotating Digital TV Antenna. The antenna sits on a plastic shelf 6 foot high 4 foot over the TV.
> 
> 
> I was shocked to have gotten 60 channels. I am getting FOX SD on 11.? and Fox LA. As both LA and SD are in a line I don't have to move the antenna.
> 
> I have screened out the info channels and the languages I don't speak and still get 35+
> 
> I don't know if I have a freak or what but I love it.
> 
> 
> It worked so good I bought a 24" flat screen and I now get a few extra channels.
> 
> 
> I would love to hear opinions if I can do better. I told my son I would send an antenna to him at NC State.
> 
> 
> Thanks



Great to hear you have a lot of success, but just because you got a lot of channels with that antenna does not necessarily mean your son would have the same success in NC. If he is close to the towers with line of sight, it should work. But your son can go into a local Radio Shack and get a similiar antenna. At least if it does not work, he can return it.


----------



## clarkf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mikepier* /forum/post/21538040
> 
> 
> Great to hear you have a lot of success, but just because you got a lot of channels with that antenna does not necessarily mean your son would have the same success in NC. If he is close to the towers with line of sight, it should work. But your son can go into a local Radio Shack and get a similiar antenna. At least if it does not work, he can return it.



He never watches the TV so I was going to send him the one thats least works. I am wondering if I have a freak (good) antenna. If I can do better and if so with what?


Thanks


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Are amps generally frowned upon when dealing with this stuff? Also how thick of a coax connection is needed? Improved some cables are flimsier than others. I would guess we want a stiff one.



Poor amps are frowned upon to say the least heh, as they produce more noise than signal. If running coax for more than 30 or 40 ft, then a quality low noise preamp is a big help and an almost must have. Channel Master and Winegard have quality low noise preamps. Rat Shack ones are high noise and over priced.

Keep in mind, preamps only compensate for the losses after the antenna terminals (and in some cases, poor RF tuner amps in the TV). Typical RG-6 loses 1 db every 18 ft at 700 mhz, correspondingly less loss at lower frequencies. A good two way splitter loses 3.5 db and poor ones even more. A 3 way splitter typically loses 7 db.


RG-6 coax is fine for most installations and is lower loss than quad shield and the older RG-59. You only need quad shield RG-6 if running next to a noisy power line. RG-6 core wire is typically copper clad steel which gives it strength, but some swear by solid copper core especially for use with preamps. When installing, you want to use large bends and not pinch it.


----------



## Dave Loudin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *clarkf* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> He never watches the TV so I was going to send him the one thats least works. I am wondering if I have a freak (good) antenna. If I can do better and if so with what?
> 
> 
> Thanks



You have an antenna that works for your situation. That antenna will not necessarily work in others, so don't get too excited yet.


There is a site that can help tell us, http://www.tvfool.com . When you enter the location, use the exact address (won't show on the report.) run one for you and for the NC location and share the URLs with us.


----------



## clarkf

Thanks Dave (for the link) I put in the address 15275 Alton Pkw Irvine,Ca 92618 and got the list. When I search I get 102 channels 80 of those come in.

What I found was: I get all the channels I am suppose to get with an indoor antenna but I stop getting channels where is says you need an attic antenna and up so I guess it.s not a super antenna.

After reading I tilted the antenna towards the station and get a few more channels but none really usable..Language or in and out,plus I lose my cbs 2.1 with the foward tilt.


Does anyone think it worth trying for the extra 8 attic mount channels and if so what antenna might give it a shot.(The antenna will be in my office so it must be somewhat discrete)


Thanks again


----------



## Konrad2

300ohm writes:

> RG-6 coax is fine for most installations and is lower loss

> than quad shield and the older RG-59.


I'll bite, why would adding additional shielding increase losses?

Or does quad-shield usually have other differences as well,

such as center conductor or dielectric?


> RG-6 core wire is typically copper clad steel which gives it strength,

> but some swear by solid copper core especially for use with preamps.


I read somewhere that the copper clad steel maintains impedance better

than solid copper, due to the increased strength/stiffness.


----------



## Dave Loudin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *clarkf* /forum/post/21541266
> 
> 
> Does anyone think it worth trying for the extra 8 attic mount channels and if so what antenna might give it a shot.(The antenna will be in my office so it must be somewhat discrete)
> 
> 
> Thanks again



There's a website (of course) that can help you decide, as it lists all the subchannels each station carries. Go to RabbitEars , click on Los Angeles to reveal the list of stations in the market, then click on any station to reveal the subchannels it carries.


In your report, the weakest station in the green/yellow area that directs much signal to you is KNLA-CD. The next three direct only a few watts your way, so it will be very hard to get them. After that, you're looking at San Diego stations. I think you've done as well as you can without getting a much larger antenna.


----------



## clarkf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dave Loudin* /forum/post/21542182
> 
> 
> There's a website (of course) that can help you decide, as it lists all the subchannels each station carries. I think you've done as well as you can without getting a much larger antenna.



Thanks again Dave!! Even with my OCD I know there is an end to what I can do within reason.


I think I saw it last night going from 80 to 102 channels and only getting 1 more useable.


Seems the extra I picked up extra were 10 Vietnamese Armenian Korean Japoneses versions of Jim and Tammy Fae Baker (though it is nice to see capitalism spreading after all Newts attacks on it via Mitt Romney)


KNLA-CD as you mentioned is shown as Spanish Independent "Zion TV"


I guess this weekend I may buy 1 more for my son and send him the loser. What would you buy? I guess I need power as if I lower my gain (or shut it off) I get nothing?


Thanks again,


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *clarkf* /forum/post/21538280
> 
> 
> He never watches the TV so I was going to send him the one thats least works. I am wondering if I have a freak (good) antenna. If I can do better and if so with what?
> 
> 
> Thanks



For TV at Cow College, the rabbit ears or other adjustable antenna will be needed to pck up the ABC affiliate, which is on Ch. 11. It'll take some more length on the dipoles than is requred for UHF.


----------



## diannalord

I am such a novice, I may be posting in the wrong place, if so, please forgive me. I have a 42' Insignia (samsung) flatscreen tv. it has the following connections: ant/cable in (which I have my AccessHD converter box in... Component IN, AV in HDMI, then a row of red white red blue yellow.... and a row of red white red blue green... I have a NeuLion box that is bringing in my Sky Angel network through my wireless internet. I have tried to program the Access HD universal remote and a new GE universal remote to function... neither remote works on everything... but I can not get to my Access HD local channels at all on this tv... it worked fine on both on the old tv just by changing the input from hdmi to tv... I can not find a code for the AccessHD box to try to program it in on the GE remote to see if that will work,..any suggestions???


----------



## diannalord

sorry... in addition... I was wondering if there was any reason that the Access HD converter box wouldn't work on the flatscreen???


----------



## bigcam406

maybe your tv already has a digital tuner and you dont need a convertor box?


----------



## arxaw

Unless it's an older flat screen (or just a monitor), it should have a digital tuner built in, and the AccessHD box shouldn't be needed. Do you have the model number of your TV?


----------



## stgdz

So I've got my board tonight to make my template, im guessing the wires should be pretty straight with the least amount of bendscorrect? I am going to use copper romeo wire that I have left over from an electrical job so it should be good. Since I am going with a solid reflector and I am hauling this thing up to the attic and I have a solid reflector, is there any advantage of adding the top hat or does it require the narod reflectors to work rite.


Also is the top hat electrically connected to the main antenna. It doesn't look like it in the models.


----------



## Dave Loudin

The NARODS are not electrically connected. They also will not work with solid or mesh reflectors.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Since I am going with a solid reflector and I am hauling this thing up to the attic and I have a solid reflector, is there any advantage of adding the top hat or does it require the narod reflectors to work rite.



With a solid reflector, dont use the NARODs. The NARODs are for vhf-hi on the rod reflector models. With the solid reflector, youll get uhf only, unless the vhf-hi stations are very strong. Just to repeat, the NARODs are not electrically connected to anything, they float 1/2" above the 5.6" stubs.


----------



## diannalord

@bigcam406 and arxaw.... you are exactly right.. that was it ... all is well ... you are my heros for the day! Thank you so much.


----------



## arxaw

Glad it worked out for you.


----------



## clarkf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dave Loudin* /forum/post/21538746
> 
> 
> You have an antenna that works for your situation. That antenna will not necessarily work in others, so don't get too excited yet.
> 
> 
> There is a site that can help tell us, http://www.tvfool.com . When you enter the location, use the exact address (won't show on the report.) run one for you and for the NC location and share the URLs with us.



Hi Dave,

For what its worth I was at Walmart and got a Phillpps svd8622 indoor outdoor that was rated higher. With that pole mount design I was able to get it much higher (my office has 20 foot ceiling) I am able to say even with the extra 8 foot height it did not get any more channels, and in fact I lost 3 all under 13. All positions incl where the old one was. I tried 7 12 and 18 feet. It's going back as my svd 6122 was $20 cheaper.


----------



## Dave Loudin

clarkf, the second antenna does not respond well to VHF channels (real channels 2-13) despite its claims. The 18 dB gain claim comes from the amplifier. However, amplifiers don't create reception where none exists.


You are over 40 miles from Mt. Wilson, but you have a clear view of the site. That's one reason why you get a boatload of channels. (The other reason is there's a large number of stations in LA.) As I said before, you're doing as well as possible with an indoor antenna. You would need an antenna like an AntennaCraft HBU-33 mounted outside to do better, and that will net you maybe three more stations.


----------



## tomhorsley

I just hacked together a bowtie antenna from the examples found many places on the web. It works fantastically well (I'm getting CBS which I never got a hint of before), but the wire I used is really too thick, and the screws tend to come lose with the slightest jostle, so I need to build a better one, and I just wonder what folks think of this idea: A piece of foam board, with the antenna components made of bell wire taped to the foam board to hold the proper shape and the connections simply soldered. It would certainly make one really flat antenna that could be easily stuck on a wall.


----------



## clarkf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse* /forum/post/21543401
> 
> 
> For TV at Cow College, the rabbit ears or other adjustable antenna will be needed to pck up the ABC affiliate, which is on Ch. 11. It'll take some more length on the dipoles than is requred for UHF.



I have a question re my sons antenna. Does the real number or th virt. tell you if it's UHF or UHV. With the exception of the 11 all are high numbers (and close) if we uses the real and he does not really watch tv. I can save some $$ and just get a cheapy.

Thanks


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *clarkf* /forum/post/21555429
> 
> 
> I have a question re my sons antenna. Does the real number or th virt. tell you if it's UHF or UHV. With the exception of the 11 all are high numbers (and close) if we uses the real and he does not really watch tv. I can save some $$ and just get a cheapy.
> 
> Thanks



The real numbers are the frequency of the broadcast. The virtual numbers are what the channel uses to identify itself on air. The single classic bowtie is a good cheapy antenna. It's around $4. Send some extra coax and a barrel splice and he may be in good shape. The bowtie also requires a press-on adapter. If you've got an old pair of rabbit ears around, you'll already have one of those.


----------



## arxaw

The real channel tells you if it is broadcasting in the VHF or UHF band.


VHF channels are 2 thru 13

UHF channels are 14 thru 51


Unless the virtual and real channels happen to be the same, virtual channels are meaningless, as far as what band the channel is broadcasting on and what antenna type is needed.

Confusing? Yes. Very.


----------



## clarkf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21555991
> 
> 
> The real channel tells you if it is broadcasting in the VHF or UHF band.
> 
> 
> VHF channels are 2 thru 13
> 
> UHF channels are 14 thru 51
> 
> 
> Unless the virtual and real channels happen to be the same, virtual channels are meaningless, as far as what band the channel is broadcasting on and what antenna type is needed.
> 
> Confusing? Yes. Very.



Thanks to all !

I was always missing some channels in a fixed position.

I saw here someone said to point the diepoles at the stations.

I tried that and got almost everything with about a 65 degree foward. With a small 65 upwards tilt everything came in but there was no way to keep it like that.

I took an old Folgers coffee jug and sliced/cut the sides where I needed it.

Cut the bottom for the wires and now sitting at 7.5 feet high I have every channel I can get.

Just for the heck of it does anyone think the Thanks to all !

I was always missing some channels in a fixed position.

I saw here someone said to point the diepoles at the stations.

I tried that and got almost everything with about a 65 degree foward. With a small 65 upwards tilt everything came in but there was no way to keep it like that.

I took an old Folgers coffee jug and sliced/cut the sides where I needed it.

Cut the bottom for the wires and now sitting at 7.5 feet high I have every channel I can get.

Just for the heck of it does anyone think the tin foil ceiling helps or hurts?'

Thanks again!


Ps I didn't put in the foil ceiling for tv reception...Thanks again!


Ps I didn't put in the foil ceiling for tv reception...LOL


----------



## arxaw

If that's a foil radiant barrier on the underside of the roof and if you're inside a metal building, it's a wonder you're getting any TV at all. Whatever works, though.


----------



## clarkf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21557558
> 
> 
> If that's a foil radiant barrier on the underside of the roof and if you're inside a metal building, it's a wonder you're getting any TV at all. Whatever works, though.



The building is all cement. no metal


----------



## arxaw

Still, not the best of locations for indoor reception. With the foil roof insulation, multipath (bounced signal) is probably rampant in there. You lucked out.


----------



## clarkf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21557614
> 
> 
> Still, not the best of locations for indoor reception. With the foil roof insulation, multipath (bounced signal) is probably rampant in there. You lucked out.



I guess I did LOL


Funny how that is. I was hoping to get 3 channels. I end with 30-40 and I'm upset I'm not getting ESPN or the Playboy channel...


----------



## difuse

Quote:

Originally Posted by clarkf

I have a question re my sons antenna. Does the real number or th virt. tell you if it's UHF or UHV. With the exception of the 11 all are high numbers (and close) if we uses the real and he does not really watch tv. I can save some $$ and just get a cheapy.

Thanks





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/21555547
> 
> 
> The real numbers are the frequency of the broadcast. The virtual numbers are what the channel uses to identify itself on air. The single classic bowtie is a good cheapy antenna. It's around $4. Send some extra coax and a barrel splice and he may be in good shape. The bowtie also requires a press-on adapter. If you've got an old pair of rabbit ears around, you'll already have one of those.



As far as indoor stuff goes, rabbit ears are probably needed to recieve all the networks. Despite the cattle roaming around campus, there are some people at NC State that know things. A fellow could probably make an antenna for indoors that would work as well as anything.


----------



## clarkf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse* /forum/post/21558111
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> Originally Posted by clarkf
> 
> I have a question re my sons antenna. Does the real number or th virt. tell you if it's UHF or UHV. With the exception of the 11 all are high numbers (and close) if we uses the real and he does not really watch tv. I can save some $$ and just get a cheapy.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Despite the cattle roaming around campus, there are some people at NC State that know things. A fellow could probably make an antenna for indoors that would work as well as anything.



LOL


Your right...he is in the engineering school he should be able to figure it out.

(I don't know why it costs so much to learn to drive a train anyway- I was a pilot and it was free to learn thanks to our uncle S)


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy* /forum/post/21555547
> 
> 
> The real numbers are the frequency of the broadcast. The virtual numbers are what the channel uses to identify itself on air. The single classic bowtie is a good cheapy antenna. It's around $4. Send some extra coax and a barrel splice and he may be in good shape. The bowtie also requires a press-on adapter. If you've got an old pair of rabbit ears around, you'll already have one of those.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *clarkf* /forum/post/21558186
> 
> 
> LOL
> 
> 
> Your right...he is in the engineering school he should be able to figure it out.
> 
> (I don't know why it costs so much to learn to drive a train anyway- I was a pilot and it was free to learn thanks to our uncle S)



Being able to properly calibrate and interpret bovine range and detection devices is part of it. You haven't seen a cow catcher in a while, have you?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *clarkf* /forum/post/21557603
> 
> 
> The building is all cement. no metal



"Cement" (aka concrete???) are full of metal---it's called REBAR...


----------



## tomhorsley




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tomhorsley* /forum/post/21554381
> 
> 
> ...I just wonder what folks think of this idea: A piece of foam board, with the antenna components made of bell wire taped to the foam board to hold the proper shape and the connections simply soldered.



It worked great! I get 44 channels with this one (some of them with lots of pixellation, mind you) and only got 35 channels with the first one I made.


With these being so much fun to make, the next thing to do is look into a dipole to see if I can get the ABC station (WPLG Miami, FL) which unfortunately is broadcasting in the VHF frequencies and doesn't show up with my db4 foamboard rig. (The other ABC station in Tequesta is apparently too far away for my indoor antenna).


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> which unfortunately is broadcasting in the VHF frequencies and doesn't show up with my db4 foamboard rig.



You could try a foamboard-mounted 2-bay high-VHF that wouldn't be terribly large.


Take one half of the DB4, multiply all dimensions by about 3.5 to 4 or so, and assemble. It will be in the ballpark for high-VHF. (Scaling factor is off-the-cuff...)


----------



## Dave Loudin




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tomhorsley* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> 
> It worked great! I get 44 channels with this one (some of them with lots of pixellation, mind you) and only got 35 channels with the first one I made.
> 
> 
> With these being so much fun to make, the next thing to do is look into a dipole to see if I can get the ABC station (WPLG Miami, FL) which unfortunately is broadcasting in the VHF frequencies and doesn't show up with my db4 foamboard rig. (The other ABC station in Tequesta is apparently too far away for my indoor antenna).



My standard response: http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweather.com/index.html documents the best bowtie antenna designs. You can get 3 or 4 dB gain in the high VHF band along with 10+ dB in the UHF band with the right design. I'm not sure that will be enough, though, in your case.


----------



## xosubuckeyex

I'm going to be dropping cable soon and want to be able to pick up the signals in my area.


I live in a rented townhome so I cannot install anything on the roof, so I was thinking internal only.

here are my results from tv fool's website 


I'm REALLY green on this topic, so any recommendations under $50 will be SERIOUSLY considered










thank you


----------



## rabbit73

xosubuckeyex:


Welcome to the forum.











Your signals are very strong. Try this inexpensive indoor antenna first:
www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103077 


With an indoor antenna, sometimes it is necessary to try different locations. You can make the antenna coax longer by using an F81 coupler with a coax extension.
www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103459 
www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103648 


DO NOT use an antenna with a built-in amplifier; it will be overloaded.


Please let us know how it works out.


----------



## clarkf




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse* /forum/post/21559017
> 
> 
> Being able to properly calibrate and interpret bovine range and detection devices is part of it. You haven't seen a cow catcher in a while, have you?



LOL


I just paid 200 for a book...must have been on that


----------



## mikepier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/21568834
> 
> 
> xosubuckeyex:
> 
> 
> Welcome to the forum.
> 
> 
> 
> Your signals are very strong. Try this inexpensive indoor antenna first:
> www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103077
> 
> 
> With an indoor antenna, sometimes it is necessary to try different locations.



+1.

Also like to add for optimal performance, try to aim the antenna to the south where the TV towers are.


----------



## arxaw

Another +1 on that specific model RS indoor antenna. It usually works well when signals are strong, like yours are. The loop & dipoles should be perpendicular to the towers to the South. IOW, the dipole rods should be facing East & West.


If you want to install an outdoor or attic antenna, this one would work well. In the attic, you could just attach it to the side of a south-facing vertical beam.


----------



## xosubuckeyex




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mikepier* /forum/post/21569168
> 
> 
> +1.
> 
> Also like to add for optimal performance, try to aim the antenna to the south where the TV towers are.



Thank you, Rabbit, Mikepier, arxaw. Your suggestion is very helpful. I was looking at $50 antennas like the C1C. I'll definitely try this inexpensive option.


----------



## holl_ands

Eagle Aspen 2-Bay appears to be identical to Antenna Direct DB-2, which was analyzed vs M2 here:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/2bayrefl 


BOTH the DB-2 and the larger M2 Super-2-Bay Bowtie antennas have much more Raw Gain to the REAR,

with minimal Gain FORWARD (depends on the channel)....so their utility for Hi-VHF reception is very limited.


Although old CM4221 also has more Gain to the REAR and CM4221HD is close to being Bi-Directional, the

Super-4-Bay M4 with a much larger Angled Reflector finally results in Hi-VHF Gain being directed FORWARD:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl 


Another small but very effective UHF/Hi-VHF antenna is the RCA ANT-751 (about 35"x35"+mount),

which has the SAME UHF front section as the W-G HD7000, except the rear elements were shortened

to eliminate Ch2-6. Modeling reveals Hi-VHF performance remained about the same:
http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751R-Ou.../dp/B0024R4B5C 
http://www.winegarddirect.com/pdf/HD7000R.pdf


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/21571003
> 
> 
> Eagle Aspen 2-Bay appears to be identical to Antenna Direct DB-2, which was analyzed vs M2 here.



Except price.



> Quote:
> BOTH the DB-2 and the larger M2 Super-2-Bay Bowtie antennas have much more Raw Gain to the REAR,
> 
> with minimal Gain FORWARD (depends on the channel)....so their utility for Hi-VHF reception is very limited.



The only VHF in the TVFool was WGCT, an independent. If the channel is not on the "must have" list, the much smaller 2bay would be a better choice and much cheaper. Or the suggested RS indoor will likely work.


----------



## meschaefer

Hi folks,


I have been doing a lot of research, but it appears that this is a can be a very big and technical topic. So I thought I should just ask for some help. I am looking to set an Antenna up on my roof. I live in fairly urban environment and there are some buildings around me that are taller than mine, but that being said it also appears from my tvfool report that I have some fairly strong signals. My initial thought is to just go big and tall, but that may be overkill and unnecessary. Initially this will be going to one TV, with a run of about 60 foot of RG6, mostly depending where on the roof the antenna goes. Any thoughts on an antenna choice would be greatly appreciated.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b8690fde8ba36


----------



## arxaw

 RCA ANT751 (made by Winegard) should work well. It comes with its own mounting bracket. If REAL (not virtual) channels 2 5 and 4 are must haves, they will probably come in with the above, but if not, and _if_ they are important, you may need something else for them. Find out what's on them and if they are important to you.


----------



## meschaefer

2,4, and 5 appear to be a public service announcement station, spanish broadcasting and a christian network. They don't seem to be anything that I would be interested in.


That being said, there doesn't seem to be that much of a difference in cost between the two antennas.



I notice that it is only recommended for channels above 7, so I looked at channel 6 as well and that seems to be a waste of bandwith.


----------



## ctdish

You are correct that channel 6 needs the different larger antenna. The RCA ANT751 is a much more compact antenna and will be easier to install and will probably last longer with ice buildup and high winds. The antenna that covers the lower stations looks to have a higher gain UHF section. This is good when aimed at a station but will make aiming more difficult and actually make stations from a different direction weaker.

John


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21571242
> 
> 
> Except price.




Since the EA "DB2" a direct knock-off by a Chinese manufacturer, the price difference isn't surprising...


----------



## meschaefer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/21576931
> 
> 
> You are correct that channel 6 needs the different larger antenna. The RCA ANT751 is a much more compact antenna and will be easier to install and will probably last longer with ice buildup and high winds. The antenna that covers the lower stations looks to have a higher gain UHF section. This is good when aimed at a station but will make aiming more difficult and actually make stations from a different direction weaker.
> 
> John



So you think that with the smaller antenna I will be able to pick up more stations? or at least ones that the antenna is not directly pointed at? When you are referencing the gain of the larger antenna, are you "looking" at it to make this distinction, or are you referencing technical data.


In looking at my report, I see that the vast majority of the stations available to me are in the area of 241 degrees. This looks like it covers all of the major stations that I want, (ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, PBS). There are quite a few other stations available as well in that direction. There are also a number of stations in the exact opposite direction as well, but if I am understanding the report it appears that many of these are different market "repeats" of what is located at 241.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *meschaefer* /forum/post/21577163
> 
> 
> ...In looking at my report, I see that the vast majority of the stations available to me are in the area of 241 degrees. This looks like it covers all of the major stations that I want, (ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, PBS). There are quite a few other stations available as well in that direction. There are also a number of stations in the exact opposite direction as well, but if I am understanding the report it appears that *many of these are different market "repeats" of what is located at 241*.



Correct. Your "241°" (254° magnetic compass direction) stations will get you all the majors and a bunch of other misc. stuff.


The ANT751 is a very solid performer, well made and quite sturdy. Since it is not encumbered with the long elements needed for real channels 2 thru 6, it has a much smaller footprint; making it easier to install and less likely to have elements damaged by birds, ice and snow. If I had your TVFool report, it is the antenna I would install.


----------



## mikepier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *meschaefer* /forum/post/21577163
> 
> 
> So you think that with the smaller antenna I will be able to pick up more stations? or at least ones that the antenna is not directly pointed at? When you are referencing the gain of the larger antenna, are you "looking" at it to make this distinction, or are you referencing technical data.
> 
> 
> In looking at my report, I see that the vast majority of the stations available to me are in the area of 241 degrees. This looks like it covers all of the major stations that I want, (ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, PBS). There are quite a few other stations available as well in that direction. There are also a number of stations in the exact opposite direction as well, but if I am understanding the report it appears that many of these are different market "repeats" of what is located at 241.



I see you live where my old stomping grounds used to be. Went to high school in Astoria.


You should have no problems getting the major networks. You can even try a regular Radio Shack budget indoor antenna like this:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077 


Its on sale for $9. If it does not work you could always return it.


Do you have line-of-sight to the Empire State Bldg?


The stations in the opposite direction are mostly Connecticut stations, which you might not need. If you do want them, then you would definately need to mount the antenna outside with a rotor, or mount a second antenna just for that direction. But I think you'll be quite happy with the amount of NYC stations you will receive.

The stations on real VHF 2,4 and 5 are not much programming to begin with so you probably can do without them.


----------



## meschaefer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mikepier* /forum/post/21578595
> 
> 
> You should have no problems getting the major networks. You can even try a regular Radio Shack budget indoor antenna like this:
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077
> 
> 
> Its on sale for $9. If it does not work you could always return it.



I figured that I shoudln't have to much trouble, and that is why it occured to me that my plan of buying the largest antenna I could get (within reason) and hoisting it as high as I could might be overkill. That being said, I would prefer a roof mount, as an indoor antenna would not pass the wife test.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mikepier* /forum/post/21578595
> 
> 
> Do you have line-of-sight to the Empire State Bldg?



I am not sure. Would that change my choice of antenna?


I had wanted to get up on my roof last night to take a look. I guess it is about a 50/50 shot. The building next to me is slightly higher than mine, but not by much (its actually hard to judge but it may be only a few feet). That may block my view, but with a reasonable sized mast I may be able to get it above that building. Whats funny is that I had a new roof put on my house and have been up on my roof more in the last year than ever before but wasn't really looking around at the time.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mikepier* /forum/post/21578595
> 
> 
> I see you live where my old stomping grounds used to be. Went to high school in Astoria.



I see your out on Long Island. I grew up in Suffolk and moved to Astoria when I was out of college.


----------



## arxaw

As strong as your signals are, getting above that building probably won't be an issue.


----------



## ota.dt.man

Does anyone have a picture of an *M4 w/ a 40"t x 36 or 40"w curved reflector roof- or chimney-mounted* to an average sized single family home?


Similar to this one of two 91XGs + BLV6F or this 91xg / YA-1713 image .


Thanks


----------



## Calaveras

I hope no one has already posted this somewhere in the past but this thread is so long that's it's almost impossible to determine if it's been mentioned somewhere. So here goes....


For several years I've been using two stacked 91XGs, combining them with the lowest loss 2-way splitter I could find. I wanted to improve upon this situation as any loss in combining the antennas subtracts from the ~2.5 dB gain you get by stacking. It's easy to lose a dB or more.


My 91XGs are the older ones with the ferrite baluns. I have measured the newer ones with the PCB balun but it was no better, about .5 to 1 dB loss depending on frequency.


Recently I was introduced to the idea of the broadband coax balun and I realized it could also apply to the 1/4 wave matching sections. I had ignored these devices before for combining UHF antennas because I didn't think they were broadband enough. I was wrong about that.


I constructed and measured 2 UHF 300 to 75 ohm coax baluns and a 1/4 wave UHF 2 way power combiner and I measured their losses. These are the losses I measured on the bench using an HP-8640B signal generator and a Boonton 9200 power meter.


Coax balun - 0.5 dB @ 470 MHz, 0.3 dB @ 585 MHz, 0.4 dB @ 698 MHz

Power divider - 0.12 dB @ 470 MHz, 0.25 dB @ 585 MHz, 0.4 dB at 698 MHz


I retrofitted the 91XG plastic feed boxes to accept the baluns and replaced the 2 way ferrite combiner with the coax combiner. I measured between 1.5 and 2 dB improvement on channel 28 using my spectrum analyzer. Channel 28 is the only LOS station I have near me that I have monitored for a long time to be sure it is stable under varying conditions. Most of my stations are 2 edges and vary a lot with conditions so I cannot use them for accurate measurements. My overall impression is that the numerous other stations are as strong or stronger than I've ever seen them. It'll take some time to get a good feeing for those stations under varying conditions.


For construction I used Belden 8241 (RG-59 with a copper shield), Belden 9269 (93 ohm copper shield) and RG-223 (50 ohm double shielded cable). I couldn't use RG-6 because you can't solder to the shield. The 93 ohm cable is used to make the 1/2 wave balun. It's as close to the ideal 150 ohms that you can get these days. I used the RG-223 as the 1/4 wave matching section. 50 ohms is very close to the geometric mean of 75 and 37.5 ohms. I found the Belden cables on Ebay and I had RG-223.


I've attached a few images. The first one is of the 2-way power combiner. I modified an old satellite DC power inserter to join the 3 coax cables with very short leads inside. I used coax seal to keep out the water. The RG-223 length is 3.3" and attaches directly to the preamp input.


The second image shows a complete balun minus the ferrite beads. The 1/2 wave section is 8.5". It is attached to the 91XG with the leads as short as possible.


The third image shows the balun in place on the 91XG with two ferrite beads acting as a UHF choke. They are Amidon FB-61-6873 beads.


The preamp I'm using is a Tinlee MA-25U-77, 30 dB gain and 2 dB noise figure. They tell me it's typically 1.5 dB.


I think I've squeezed everything I can out of these antennas.


Chuck


----------



## jschweda19

Hey guys,


I have recently built a HTPC with a TV Tuner card Avermedia Duet. I need to add an Antenna and not really sure if buying one is worth it or just building my own. I went to TVFool's website to get my signal strengths in my area and not really sure how to read them and what would be needed to get good signal strength.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b8636543a7194 


Can I get away with a cheap antenna to put near my TV or should I build one for my attic?


Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## cjl7701

A friend of mine just let me borrow an rca hang on the wall amplified antenna, first night tv picked up 11 stations, the next night all i get with a strong signal is fox 61.

I am looking for reccomendations for an antenna to mount in my attic, or possibly something somewhat small to mount to my eave on the roof, i would rather not mount one directly to my roof top. I can possibly mount one to my chimney, but i heat with wood and do not know if the heat and smoke would possibly affect it. My zip code is 06279, can't post a url because i'm a newbie. Any help will be greatly appreciated. My property is bordered by trees, to the west is pretty open, to the south is trees, to the north is pretty clear, to the east is treed, don't know how much effect that has. I would prefer mounting in the attic, but after reading some posts, it seems like a no brainer to mount outside if possible, thanks again.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cjl7701* /forum/post/21595595
> 
> 
> ... I am looking for recommendations for an antenna to mount in my attic, or possibly something somewhat small to mount to my eave on the roof, i would rather not mount one directly to my roof top. I can possibly mount one to my chimney, but i heat with wood and do not know if the heat and smoke would possibly affect it. My zip code is 06279, can't post a url because i'm a newbie.



Welcome!

Go back to TVFool.com and enter your address.

Copy the link to the final results page.

Post the partial URL that the software allows you to post in this thread.

We can figure out the complete URL.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jschweda19* /forum/post/21594830
> 
> 
> I went to TVFool's website to get my signal strengths in my area and not really sure how to read them and what would be needed to get good signal strength.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b8636543a7194
> 
> 
> Can I get away with a cheap antenna to put near my TV or should I build one for my attic?



I would try this specific antenna from RS. If it doesn't work reliably, just return it and consider an attic or outdoor antenna.


If your roofing materials are just conventional asphalt shingles and you have no foil insulation anywhere in the attic area, an attic install should work for you. If I had your TVFool report and _if_ WWAZ was not a must-have, I would get an RCA ANT751 (made by Winegard). It is small, easy to install and comes with its own mounting bracket. Just hang it in the attic from a roof rafter and point it roughly 70-75° magnetic compass direction.


If WWAZ is necessary, you may need an "all channel" antenna, like this one . It's about the same price shipped, but much larger than the ANT751, due to the long elements needed for the frequency WWAZ is on.

*If* you have a long coax run or split to multiple tuners, you _may_ need a signal preamp . Add one only if needed, though.


----------



## cjl7701




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21595684
> 
> 
> Welcome!
> 
> Go back to TVFool.com and enter your address.
> 
> Copy the link to the final results page.
> 
> Post the partial URL that the software allows you to post in this thread.
> 
> We can figure out the complete URL.



hope this is the part of the link you were looking for, thanks .


3d0b86573754e253


----------



## A J




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cjl7701* /forum/post/21595595
> 
> 
> I am looking for reccomendations for an antenna to mount in my attic, or possibly something somewhat small to mount to my eave on the roof, i would rather not mount one directly to my roof top.



I was faced with a similar situation early last year. The link below shows the small VHF/UHF antenna I installed in my attic with excellent results. My local stations range from 14 to 37 miles from my house.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...d#post20372667 


AJ


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cjl7701* /forum/post/21595595
> 
> 
> I am looking for recommendations for an antenna to mount in my attic, or possibly something somewhat small to mount to my eave on the roof, i would rather not mount one directly to my roof top. I can possibly mount one to my chimney, but i heat with wood and do not know if the heat and smoke would possibly affect it.


 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b86573754e253 

If the stations at the top of your TVFool report shown in yellow are what you want, a small ANT751 should work well. Install the mounting bracket (included) on an eave at the roof peak and aim roughly 260° magnetic compass direction (W/SW). If you heat with wood, you do not want to put it on or near the chimney, where smoke would eventually corrode it.


If you want to try the antenna in the attic first, just run a temporary RG6 coax to the antenna and place it on top of a large cardboard or plastic box in the attic. If it works to your satisfaction there, install it permanently.


If you want more stations than that, you might need a bigger antenna and possibly a preamp and rotor to turn the antenna.


----------



## jschweda19




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21595747
> 
> 
> I would try this specific antenna from RS. If it doesn't work reliably, just return it and consider an attic or outdoor antenna.
> 
> 
> If your roofing materials are just conventional asphalt shingles and you have no foil insulation anywhere in the attic area, an attic install should work for you. If I had your TVFool report and _if_ WWAZ was not a must-have, I would get an RCA ANT751 (made by Winegard). It is small, easy to install and comes with its own mounting bracket. Just hang it in the attic from a roof rafter and point it roughly 70-75° magnetic compass direction.
> 
> 
> If WWAZ is necessary, you may need an "all channel" antenna, like this one . It's about the same price shipped, but much larger than the ANT751, due to the long elements needed for the frequency WWAZ is on.
> 
> *If* you have a long coax run or split to multiple tuners, you _may_ need a signal preamp . Add one only if needed, though.





Thanks so much for your feedback. I do not need WWAZ. Have never watched it before. I will try the RS one for now. If not, I will try an attic antenna.


----------



## cjl7701

thank you for the feedback arxaw and aj


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jschweda19* /forum/post/21595921
> 
> 
> ... I will try the RS one for now. If not, I will try an attic antenna.



Do post back with your results.


----------



## cjl7701




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21595881
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b86573754e253
> 
> If the stations at the top of your TVFool report shown in yellow are what you want, a small ANT751 should work well. Install the mounting bracket (included) on an eave at the roof peak and aim roughly 260° magnetic compass direction (W/SW). If you heat with wood, you do not want to put it on or near the chimney, where smoke would eventually corrode it.
> 
> 
> If you want to try the antenna in the attic first, just run a temporary RG6 coax to the antenna and place it on top of a large cardboard or plastic box in the attic. If it works to your satisfaction there, install it permanently.
> 
> 
> If you want more stations than that, you might need a bigger antenna and possibly a preamp and rotor to turn the antenna.




what would you reccomend for a larger antenna and rotor , if I was to mount outside, and wanted to pick up more stations than the ones in yellow on my list. If i'm going to do it, I think I'd like to do it the best I can the first time, I'm one of those people that will research something to death before purchaseing. I think on this issue I am going to take the advice of this forum, Any recomendations for something larger would be appreciated. I am going to order the ANT751, for the price it is definitely worth the experiment. just wondering what an upgrade to that would be, thanks.


----------



## arxaw

Antenna> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=HD7698P 

Preamp> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=CM-7777 

Rotator> I can't really recommend a rotator. I have one, but rarely use it. It is a clone of the AntennaCraft model rotator on this page, but it's branded RadioShack. It was already on the antenna tower when I bought my house 6 years ago.


Whether the expense and trouble of buying/installing/maintaining a larger and more complex antenna system could be justified, just to get a few more independent stations and network duplicates of what you should be able to get with the simple ANT751, would be up to you. Most people wouldn't bother.


----------



## ctdish

A couple of thing to also note. As the antenna gets larger the beamwidth gets narrower. His main stations are not all in the exact same direction and with the larger antenna he will be more likely to need to adjust the rotator with some channel changes. I would find this a PIA. Also his best chance at ABC is on physical channel 10. It is a few degrees off from most of the UHF stations. If WTNH proves troublesome a separate VHF high antenna aimed at WTNH might be useful. The CM7777 can be used to combine the two antennas.

John


----------



## cjl7701

that makes sense, same networks, why bother. thanks for your time. i'm going to order the other one now, i'm not a big tv watcher, haven't had one in a year and a half , due to remodeling my home. think i'll be more of a movie guy, so this OTA antenna will be ideal for my local channels, I can stream movies from my computer, Just can't justify a $180.00 a month cable bill , ( the one my buddy has) to watch maybe 2 hours or less tv a day. thanks a lot for the help.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/21597987
> 
> 
> A couple of thing to also note. As the antenna gets larger the beamwidth gets narrower. His main stations are not all in the exact same direction and with the larger antenna he will be more likely to need to adjust the rotator with some channel changes.



Very true.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cjl7701* /forum/post/21597994
> 
> 
> that makes sense, same networks, why bother. thanks for your time. i'm going to order the other one now, i'm not a big tv watcher, haven't had one in a year and a half , due to remodeling my home.



I think the 751 will work fine for your locals. Do post back with your results, so others may learn from your experience.


----------



## tomhorsley




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dave Loudin* /forum/post/21561295
> 
> 
> My standard response: http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweather.com/index.html documents the best bowtie antenna designs. You can get 3 or 4 dB gain in the high VHF band along with 10+ dB in the UHF band with the right design. I'm not sure that will be enough, though, in your case.



Wow! I've just finished what certainly ought to be my final antenna build along the lines of those antennas, and not only do I get the WPLG ABC station now, but the TV is reporting 5 bars for signal strength. I'm blown away by what arranging little pieces of wire in the right pattern can do .


The entire story of my antenna evolution can be found at:

http://home.comcast.net/~tomhorsley/...a/antenna.html


----------



## jschweda19




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21596442
> 
> 
> Do post back with your results.



So far I have had no luck with Windows Media Center setting up the antenna. For some reason it keeps stalling out during "Examining TV Signal". After spending all day yesterday and most of today searching the net, I have decided to give up on my tuner card. Maybe it is defective. I am going to try a different card and see what happens.


I ended up getting this one: RadioShack® Amplified HDTV Antenna. The guys said it works better in my area.


thanks for checking back.


----------



## arxaw

Obviously, the RS dude knows his stuff, since the antenna he talked you into worked so well.


----------



## cjl7701

any reccomendations on a vhf hi antenna for trying to bring in wtnh, I ordered the ANT751 , hopefully be here for next weekend. I thought about buying 2 and aiming the other around 323 degrees to catch channel 11, since it is closer than channel 8, and whatever else is up there, instead of buying some kind of rotor, any thoughts of anything better , I was looking at rooftops in the area today, and saw some pretty big antennas on those roofs. Hope this all works out. Thanks


----------



## arxaw

The elements of the ANT751 are tuned for VHF-HI and UHF bands. Older antennas you are seeing probably have very long elements needed for lowband VHF (no longer used in your area, post-analog), or may be for weaker stations than the ones in yellow on your TVFool report.


Combining two antennas will occasionally work, but not always. It's a crap shoot. If it doesn't work, an alternative is to run a coax to each antenna and use an A/B switch to change between the two antennas.


I would try the single antenna first and see what you get.


----------



## tomhorsley




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21603785
> 
> 
> Combining two antennas will occasionally work, but not always. It's a crap shoot. If it doesn't work, an alternative is to run a coax to each antenna and use an A/B switch to change between the two antennas.



That brings up a question I've wondered about since I first setup my new Visio: How the heck do you use multiple antennas or an antenna on a rotor if the TV insists on only allowing you to try and tune channels it thinks it found when scanning? Do some TVs allow you to scan for additional channels and add them to the list it already has? I don't see anything like that with the Visio.


----------



## ctdish




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jschweda19* /forum/post/21601650
> 
> 
> So far I have had no luck with Windows Media Center setting up the antenna.
> 
> 
> thanks for checking back.



Your TVFool results indicate medium strength for your strongest stations. I would not be surprised if you were unable to get anything with a set top antenna. The cheap amplified ones have a particularly bad reputation as most seem to have very noisy amplifiers. Your best bet is to try something like the recommended RCA ANT751 in your attic. If that is not good enough put it outside on the roof.

John


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tomhorsley* /forum/post/21604403
> 
> 
> That brings up a question I've wondered about since I first setup my new Visio: How the heck do you use multiple antennas or an antenna on a rotor if the TV insists on only allowing you to try and tune channels it thinks it found when scanning? Do some TVs allow you to scan for additional channels and add them to the list it already has? I don't see anything like that with the Visio.



Many TVs have some sort of channel add feature, separate from the initial setup scan. Some allow direct entry of the RF channel number (assuming one knows what it is), while other TVs' "channel add" feature is just a rescan option that adds newly found channels to the list of channels it found in the initial setup scan.


The fact that Vizio TVs do not have this feature is a good reason to avoid them.


Another feature to look for on TVs is a signal meter of some sort. It is a must when setting up an OTA antenna or diagnosing reception problems. I cannot figure out why TV mfgs. would omit such an important feature. Even the cheapest throwaway cellphones display signal strength...


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tomhorsley* /forum/post/21604403
> 
> 
> That brings up a question I've wondered about since I first setup my new Visio: How the heck do you use multiple antennas or an antenna on a rotor if the TV insists on only allowing you to try and tune channels it thinks it found when scanning? Do some TVs allow you to scan for additional channels and add them to the list it already has? I don't see anything like that with the Visio.



I have a reciever with no stated direct (by keypad) access to digital channels. But it has it. Do some exploring with the remote and see what can be done. You might be able to punch in an RF channel not in scan and add it.


----------



## pamajestic




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21604804
> 
> 
> The fact that Vizio TVs do not have this feature is a good reason to avoid them.



I have three different models of Vizios and all of them have the ability to add channels after the initial scan.


----------



## arxaw

Thanks for the correction. I should have said _some_ Vizio TVs.


----------



## tomhorsley




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21605519
> 
> 
> Thanks for the correction. I should have said _some_ Vizio TVs.



Heck, maybe mine does as well, I just haven't stumbled across it, and the manual is extremely thin. It is an E370VA in case that strikes a note with anyone.


Actually, I just downloaded the PDF of the manual so I could search for the word "channel", and there is indeed a channels menu buried somewhere with the option to scan for additional channels. Now all I have to do is figure out where to find it with the remote .


----------



## JoeWS

I have added channels on my 2 Vizio TVs. You need to know the RF channel number to do it. I am not home at the moment, but I believe the sequence is as follows: Press MENU, go to SETTINGS, select TUNER. Go down to PARTIAL SCAN. Select DIGITAL, then enter the channel number the station actually broadcasts on in both the Start Channel and End Channel numbers, and select start. It will take only a few seconds.


----------



## gbynum




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *pamajestic* /forum/post/21605367
> 
> 
> I have three different models of Vizios and all of them have the ability to add channels after the initial scan.



I have one, and it can neither add channels, have a channel (with a PSIP entry) entered by RF channel, nor display signal strength. Mine is their VO22LHDTV10A.


It works well within those limitations, and is NOW hooked to Charter Cable with local HD via clear QAM.


----------



## arxaw

Bottom line: Research before you buy.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21609145
> 
> 
> Bottom line: Research before you buy.



Yes that is quite correct. And I try my best to do so. But it can often be a bit frustrating as the average salesperson does not normally know the answer to these types of technical questions, especially in regard to OTA. Their answer is always just connect your cable or sat box and you will be fine. And thats the only way to get full HD, unless you buy our overpriced HD antenna, but even then you won't get total HD. And very few stores have a local antenna connected to their displays anymore, so you can't really experiment with picture and channel settings as you would like. Both my local BB and HHG used to have at least a few TVs connected to an outside antenna, but not anymore.


----------



## jschweda19




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish* /forum/post/21604600
> 
> 
> Your TVFool results indicate medium strength for your strongest stations. I would not be surprised if you were unable to get anything with a set top antenna. The cheap amplified ones have a particularly bad reputation as most seem to have very noisy amplifiers. Your best bet is to try something like the recommended RCA ANT751 in your attic. If that is not good enough put it outside on the roof.
> 
> John



It turned out that my tuner card was defective. I bought a HDHomerun and set up the tv signal with no issues.


Thanks for the feedback on the antenna. Yes the Radio Shack antenna I bought only gives me a max of 3 bars out of 6. Not good. Can't keep picture.


Is it worth buying an antenna like the RCA ANT751 or should I build one? It looks like I can build one for around $10 or so. I have most of the items needed.


Thanks for any additional input.


----------



## arxaw

Per your TVFool, I didn't think the RS set top antenna would work too well. Worth trying, though.


Of course you can try building an antenna. Just make sure it the kind that is supposed to receive both VHF-HI and UHF bands.


If it were me, I would just buy an ANT751.


----------



## jschweda19




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21613051
> 
> 
> Per your TVFool, I didn't think the RS set top antenna would work too well. Worth trying, though.
> 
> 
> Of course you can try building an antenna. Just make sure it the kind that is supposed to receive both VHF-HI and UHF bands.
> 
> 
> If it were me, I would just buy an ANT751.



Yeah, I think I will try the ANT751. It looks like it is on sale at WalMart right now for $29.


Thanks!


----------



## arxaw

That's a great price on the ANT751.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21614389
> 
> 
> That's a great price on the ANT751.



Yea I've seen it run $69-$89. So if your local Walmart does not have it in stock, order it online and have it shipped to store. I believe it is free shipping this way also. Also order online and ship to store if the instore price is higher, as they normally don't price match with the online site.


----------



## arxaw

Yes, they offer free ship-to-store. The good thing about buying an antenna from wm, you can easily return it to your local store, if it doesn't meet your needs.


They also sell CM 4228HD 8bay antennas online - with free ship to store.


----------



## Ken.F




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21614389
> 
> 
> That's a great price on the ANT751.



Do you think that antenna would help me receive channel 12? I'm currently using a home-made 4-bay in the attic. I can get all the channels to the south that I want except 12. I don't know why but I can get channels 6 and 9 with the 4-bay. Channel 9 comes in from the back of the antenna but I don't care if I lose that one.

TV Fool Report


----------



## arxaw

If VHF channels are strong enough, any piece of metal may pick them up; even a 4bay antenna tuned mostly for the UHF band. That's why you're getting 6 & 9 with yours. The signals are fairly strong. Ch 12 at your location is weaker, so the 4bay UHF isn't receiving sufficient signal, but the ANT751 should pick it up, unless some sort of attic materials are blocking it. Outdoor would really be better.


If you're getting lowband VHF ch 6 with your current UHF 4-bay, the ANT751 will likely also pick it up at your location, even though it is tuned for VHF-HI and UHF, not VHF-LO. No guarantee, though, as ch 6 is often hit or miss without an antenna specifically tuned for lowband VHF. A better choice for you may be the Winegard HD7000R , which is similar to the ANT751, but is tuned for all 3 TV bands.


----------



## Ken.F




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21617424
> 
> 
> A better choice for you may be the Winegard HD7000R , which is similar to the ANT751, but is tuned for all 3 TV bands.



Thanks. Since the HD7000R is 100" wide I can't put it in the attic. I'm going to try the ANT571 first. If that doesn't work I'll try the HD-7000R outdoors when the weather gets better.


----------



## holl_ands

You didn't say which DIY 4-Bay design you used.


M4 Super-4-Bay Bowties have very good Hi-VHF Gain, F/B & F/R Ratios,

however the way too small 4-Bay antennas such as DB-4 and the

notorious U-Tube Defect have not only poor UHF performance, but

what little Hi-VHF Gain it can muster is pointed towards the REAR:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/mult...ayrefl/db4refl 


It is also important to note that ALL of these UHF 4-Bay antennas

have excessive SWR trying to operate in the Hi-VHF Band. Inserting

a short length of coax (e.g. 18-24 inches) could "shift" a NULL on the

end of the coax to another frequency. But the digital decision process

may still be degraded due to the Error Vector Magnitude (EVM) effect

[search forum & Google for more info).


----------



## Ken.F




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/21618286
> 
> 
> You didn't say which DIY 4-Bay design you used.



It's the "notorious U-Tube Defect" design.


----------



## Dave Loudin

Build plans and kits for the M-4 bow-tie array are here: http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweather.com/index.html . By what shows in your TVFool report, you could rebuild your bowtie array for better results.


----------



## meschaefer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *meschaefer* /forum/post/21576309
> 
> 
> Hi folks,
> 
> 
> I have been doing a lot of research, but it appears that this is a can be a very big and technical topic. So I thought I should just ask for some help. I am looking to set an Antenna up on my roof. I live in fairly urban environment and there are some buildings around me that are taller than mine, but that being said it also appears from my tvfool report that I have some fairly strong signals. My initial thought is to just go big and tall, but that may be overkill and unnecessary. Initially this will be going to one TV, with a run of about 60 foot of RG6, mostly depending where on the roof the antenna goes. Any thoughts on an antenna choice would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b8690fde8ba36




I just wanted to report back, that I went with the RCA ANT751 as recommended. I put it up on top of my roof and fabricated a 10 foot extension for the mast (Which gets it up about 40 foot in the air and over the apartment building right next to me) and aimed it at 254° magnetic compass direction. Did a scan, and pulled in approx 65 channels. (Granted most are crap) I am pulling in all of my network channels at full strength with a great picture. Best Superbowl picture I ever had.


Thanks for your help.


Matt


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ken.F* /forum/post/21619343
> 
> 
> It's the "notorious U-Tube Defect" design.



If it has a Reflector, my comments above apply....

However, with NO Reflector, U-Tube Defect provides 3.2 dBi, Bi-Directional Gain for Hi-VHF,

although the SWR is Excessive (just like UHF):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bay/utube


----------



## Ken.F




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/21620955
> 
> 
> If it has a Reflector, my comments above apply....
> 
> However, with NO Reflector, U-Tube Defect provides 3.2 dBi, Bi-Directional Gain for Hi-VHF,
> 
> although the SWR is Excessive (just like UHF):
> http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bay/utube



I've played around with a piece of foam board covered with aluminum foil as a reflector. The reflector blocks channel 9 from the north. If I add the reflector and space it about 5 inches back I can sometimes get 12 but it makes 6 less stable. With the reflector spaced about 1-1/2 inches back I get 6 reliably but I lose 12.


I picked up the ANT751 today. I'll put it up tonight if I have time.


----------



## Ken.F




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dave Loudin* /forum/post/21620085
> 
> 
> Build plans and kits for the M-4 bow-tie array are here: http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweather.com/index.html . By what shows in your TVFool report, you could rebuild your bowtie array for better results.



Thanks for the suggestion. I already have that page bookmarked. I thought some day I might try building one of those or a Gray-Hoverman. Then I saw jschweda19 mention the ANT751 being on sale for about what it would cost me to build another antenna.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *meschaefer* /forum/post/21620587
> 
> 
> I just wanted to report back, that I went with the RCA ANT751 as recommended. I put it up on top of my roof and fabricated a 10 foot extension for the mast (Which gets it up about 40 foot in the air and over the apartment building right next to me) and aimed it at 254° magnetic compass direction. Did a scan, and pulled in approx 65 channels. (Granted most are crap) I am pulling in all of my network channels at full strength with a great picture. Best Superbowl picture I ever had.
> 
> 
> Thanks for your help.
> 
> 
> Matt



Matt, glad the ANT751 worked for you. Thanks for posting back with your results.


It's true that many of the OTA channels are "crap," but so are many cable channels. And amazingly, people actually pay money for that crap. At least OTA is free (after you pay for the equipment).


----------



## Dave Loudin

Hey, Ken.F, if you want to consider G-H's further, be sure to bookmark this site. Design parameters were run through an optimizer to get around 14dBi gain in the UHF band and 9dBi in the hi-VHF band.


----------



## Ken.F

I put the ANT751 up. When I can get a helper to come over I'll be able to aim it better. I pointed it in the same general direction the 4-bay was facing and it seems to be working well. I still get WBPH on 9 from the north even though the antenna is pointed south. I have some tall pine trees to the south-east so maybe it's bouncing the signal off the trees?


12 is better now but I don't know how solid that one will be. Time will tell. Right before swapping the antennas I was getting it at 14-18 on the signal meter. The picture starts to break up at about 16 so this was a good time to swap antennas. The ANT751 is pulling it in at 20-22 with a stable picture. 6 is good at 34 - 36. All the UHF channels are a little stronger now as well. I didn't find any new channels but I wasn't expecting to. Thanks to everyone for the advice.

TV Fool Report 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dave Loudin* /forum/post/21622504
> 
> 
> Hey, Ken.F, if you want to consider G-H's further, be sure to bookmark this site. Design parameters were run through an optimizer to get around 14dBi gain in the UHF band and 9dBi in the hi-VHF band.



Thanks!


----------



## arxaw

Ken.F,

Glad the ANT751 worked for you, including lowband VHF channel 6. Thanks for posting back.


Channel 9 is fairly strong at your location. The antenna is just picking it up from the back side of the antenna.


If your numbers are SNR, you usually consistently need ~16 or higher to maintain a lock. More than that won't make the picture quality any better, but higher numbers do give you more insurance against changes due to weather and atmospheric conditions.


----------



## cjl7701




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21598251
> 
> 
> Very true.
> 
> 
> I think the 751 will work fine for your locals. Do post back with your results, so others may learn from your experience.




RECEIVED MY ANT 751 YESTERDAY, TRIED TV WITH THE FLAT AMPLIFIED ANTENNA I HAD FOR A COMPARISON BEFORE HOOKING UP THE ANT751. WAS PULLING 5 CHANNELS WITH THE OLD ONE, WAS SNOWING A LITTLE OUTSIDE( IF THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE). HAD 11 CHANNELS WHEN I HAD HOOKED IT UP A WEEK AGO.

HOOKED UP THE ANT751 IN THE ATTIC, POINTED IT IN A GUESTIMATE 250-260 DEGREES , CAME DOWN AND DID A SCAN, PICKED UP 25 CHANNELS, INCLUDEING WTNH 8.1, WHICH IS APPROX 45 MILES AWAY, ACCORDING TO THE CHART. I'M VERY HAPPY, i HAVEN'T FINE TUNED ANYTHING OR TRIED ROTATING IT AT ALL. I WAS GOING TO INITIALLY PUT IT OUTSIDE WHEN I GOT IT, THE SNOW STOPPED THAT THIS MORNING,

THANKS FOR ALL THE ADVICE ARXAW AND CT DISH, HOPE THIS HELPS SOME OTHERS OUT THERE. I MAY BUY ANOTHER AND AIM IT IN ANOTHER DIRECTION, AND PUT IT ON A AB SWITCH DOWN THE ROAD, BUT FOR NOW I WILL SIT BACK AND ENJOY WHAT I HAVE, THANKS AGAIN FOR THE HELP. GLAD THERE IS A FORUM LIKE THIS FOR THOSE OF US THAT ARE TRYING TO LEARN.


----------



## arxaw

Glad it worked for you. If you're getting the stations you wanted, I would just leave the antenna in the attic, out of the weather. The antenna, coax and connectors will hold up a lot better out of the weather.


----------



## clicq

This is a really interesting thread! I was hoping to get some suggestions on antennas. My TVfool analysis results:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b86e8f26ce8ec 


I'm currently living in an apartment complex, which means I don't really have any means to mount an outdoor antenna







. On the plus side, the area is mostly flat; I'm just far away from most of the transmitters.


In the TVfool report above, I'm really only interested in getting the major networks, down to NBC (7). I saw a couple people had posted success with making a DIY antenna; would they be appropriate for my situation?


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *clicq* /forum/post/21631719
> 
> 
> This is a really interesting thread! I was hoping to get some suggestions on antennas. My TVfool analysis results:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b86e8f26ce8ec
> 
> 
> I'm currently living in an apartment complex, which means I don't really have any means to mount an outdoor antenna
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . On the plus side, the area is mostly flat; I'm just far away from most of the transmitters.
> 
> 
> In the TVfool report above, I'm really only interested in getting the major networks, down to NBC (7). I saw a couple people had posted success with making a DIY antenna; would they be appropriate for my situation?



The terrain isn't very hard on reception where you are. Have you tried any type of antenna, yet? You might be surprised at how well a simple indoor antenna might do.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> In the TVfool report above, I'm really only interested in getting the major networks, down to NBC (7). I saw a couple people had posted success with making a DIY antenna; would they be appropriate for my situation?



Yeah, if you have east facing window or east exterior wall with no metal, the GH0n will work well for you. Much better than the U-tube defect.
http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/g..._5V9_10u0.html


----------



## Ken H

Administrative Question:


Is this topic used much for OTA reception hardware besides antennas? Meaning preamps, splitters, combiners, cable, baluns/transformers, mounting hardware, etc?


I ask because in pruning the 'stuck' topics, there was one titled "Antennas, rotators, boosters/preamps... for wide-band VHF/UHF", found here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=546066 


It went unused for 6 months, so I closed it, but still left it in the stuck 'Links' topic, because there is a ton of reference material.


I'm considering reopening it and renaming it for all non-antenna reception hardware.


Or should I leave it closed and re-title this topic to add all OTA reception hardware?


Or other?


Thanks in advance for your input.


----------



## arxaw

I always thought the two threads were redundant and could easily be combined into one.


----------



## clicq




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse* /forum/post/21631885
> 
> 
> The terrain isn't very hard on reception where you are. Have you tried any type of antenna, yet? You might be surprised at how well a simple indoor antenna might do.



I have not; I guess that's the first thing I should try. I'll grab a basic one from Walmart/Target tomorrow and see how it does.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/21632069
> 
> 
> Yeah, if you have east facing window or east exterior wall with no metal, the GH0n will work well for you. Much better than the U-tube defect.
> http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/g..._5V9_10u0.html



Sadly I'm in the middle of the building, with only a north facing window







.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21632377
> 
> 
> I always thought the two threads were redundant and could easily be combined into one.



Same here. The now-locked thread does have a lot of useful information in it, so it would be worth keeping a link to it somewhere for reference. I think it would be confusing to have separate threads for antennas and for antenna-related hardware.


----------



## Ken H




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell* /forum/post/21632641
> 
> 
> Same here. The now-locked thread does have a lot of useful information in it, so it would be worth keeping a link to it somewhere for reference. I think it would be confusing to have separate threads for antennas and for antenna-related hardware.



Ok, two votes for merging, thanks for the feedback.


----------



## arxaw

Perhaps a title of: *Over The Air Antennas and Related Hardware* (?)


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *clicq* /forum/post/21632517
> 
> 
> I have not; I guess that's the first thing I should try. I'll grab a basic one from Walmart/Target tomorrow and see how it does.



If you have a RadioShack, this specific model (15-1874) antenna often works much better than other antennas that look almost identical. http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077 

You can return it if it doesn't work.




> Quote:
> Sadly I'm in the middle of the building, with only a north facing window
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Since you don't have any windows facing the ideal direction, indoor reception may be doable, but may also require patience and a lot of trial and error until you find a reception hot spot, free of interference. Connect a longer piece of coax to the antenna, with a barrel splice . Try different spots in the room, if necessary. High, low, near different walls and possibly in another room. Near a window may be best, but is not always the case with unpredictable indoor reception. You will need to rescan or select "add digital channels" from the TV's channel setup menu, after each time you move the antenna around. If your TV has a signal strength meter, bring that up on the screen to help find a good spot to set the antenna.



.


----------



## johnson_design

Glad I found this thread. Decided to cut cable and save over $100 a month. On a whim I built a antenna ( this one ) without a reflector. I can pull in all of the major networks plus, ION is spotty.


From TV Fool it looks like I'm in the middle of two banks of towers, the antenna is pointing toward the majors, the ION tower is the opposite direction. My questions. Would adding a reflector help or would a second antenna pointed the other way work (can you combined the two, if so how). These will eventually be installed in a third floor attic space.


Finally because of the length of cable run, over 60 feet, I've added an amplifier to the line ( this one ) I didn't really notice much of a change in reception. Do these really help.


Thanks. Sorry for all the questions.


----------



## johnson_design

Sorry about that. I added one to my post.


----------



## arxaw

Adding a reflector will make the antenna more directional, which may help with problem channels (in the direction it's aimed), at the expense of channels the antenna is _not_ aimed directly at. A preamp should not help with the channels in green, and may actually degrade signal quality, due to overload (if it ain't broke...).


Do you currently get any channels to the West?


----------



## johnson_design




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21633607
> 
> 
> Do you currently get any channels to the West?



The only one to the west I receive is 30.1, it comes in great. 47.1 rarely comes in and usually only for a few seconds.


----------



## arxaw

According to your TVFool, WRAY Ch 30-1 is to the East of you.


You could build another antenna to get some channels from another direction. But it would likely work better by using two coax lines and an A/B switch to change antennas. You would also need to make sure your TV can add channels after the initial channel scan, without wiping out the channels if initially found. A few brands/models models do not have that feature.


Before building another antenna, I would add a screen to the existing antenna, then aim in the opposite direction and rescan, to see what extra channels it might get, before going to the trouble of building one.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *johnson_design* /forum/post/21633409
> 
> 
> I can pull in all of the major networks plus, ION is spotty.



TV Fool shows ION as a 2 edge path which means it's more likely to have multipath issues. A more directional antenna would be helpful if that's the case.



> Quote:
> can you combined the two, if so how



You cannot combine two antennas on the same band. They'll interfere with each other. It's like purposely introducing multipath. Use an A/B switch for two antennas. With expensive filters it is possible to pick off one channel from an antenna and add it into another but I've never heard of anyone doing that at home.



> Quote:
> Finally because of the length of cable run, over 60 feet, I've added an amplifier to the line ( this one ) I didn't really notice much of a change in reception. Do these really help.



They help a lot under the right circumstances. 60' feet of cable is not a very long run. The purpose of a preamp is to overcome cable loss and maybe a splitter. If you install a preamp and nothing improves, that's telling you that your signals are already strong enough or you have multipath issues.


With the number of stations you have with Noise Margins above 50 dB, I wouldn't use a preamp because it's likely to get overloaded.


Chuck


----------



## johnson_design

Thanks for all the input. Will mess around some more with directional tuning and trying out a reflector, amp will go back.


----------



## clicq




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21633315
> 
> 
> If you have a RadioShack, this specific model (15-1874) antenna often works much better than other antennas that look almost identical. http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077
> 
> You can return it if it doesn't work.
> 
> 
> 
> Since you don't have any windows facing the ideal direction, indoor reception may be doable, but may also require patience and a lot of trial and error until you find a reception hot spot, free of interference. Connect a longer piece of coax to the antenna, with a barrel splice . Try different spots in the room, if necessary. High, low, near different walls and possibly in another room. Near a window may be best, but is not always the case with unpredictable indoor reception. You will need to rescan or select "add digital channels" from the TV's channel setup menu, after each time you move the antenna around. If your TV has a signal strength meter, bring that up on the screen to help find a good spot to set the antenna.
> 
> 
> 
> .



Thanks for all the tips!


I tried two antennas; I tried to get the antenna you suggested, but my local RS didn't have them in stock.


The first antenna I tried was from Walmart:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/RCA-Digita...r-DTV/10542272 


This antenna, with some careful placement, got me 13 DTV channels, but it was basically WTLJ, WGVU, and WXMI -- PBS and Fox essentially.


I then tried the antenna recommended by the salesperson at Radioshack:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...uctId=11694069 


This gave me the same channels as the antenna above, and this one has a preamp! So this antenna is definitely going back...


Do I have a chance at getting ABC/NBC/CBS, or is this the best I'll be able to do with an indoor antenna?


----------



## arxaw

Listen to folks here - not some sales droid in RS or bestbuy, etc., trying to upsell you something more expensive.


Those flat antennas are typically good looking but perform poorly. Try a different radio shack or order online/ship to store for the suggested antenna. You can return it to the store if it doesn't work.


Did you try the antennas in different places in the room? Or did you just plop it down by the TV and scan? Typically, next to the TV is about the _worst_ place in the room to put an antenna, due to interference from electronic devices, including the TV itself.


----------



## clicq




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21634559
> 
> 
> Listen to folks here - not some sales droid in RS or bestbuy, etc., trying to upsell you something more expensive.
> 
> 
> Those flat antennas are typically good looking but perform poorly. Try a different radio shack or order online/ship to store for the suggested antenna. You can return it to the store if it doesn't work.
> 
> 
> Did you try the antennas in different places in the room? Or did you just plop it down by the TV and scan? Typically, next to the TV is about the _worst_ place in the room to put an antenna, due to interference from electronic devices, including the TV itself.



I've learned my lesson -- I'll try another RS when I return this antenna. I just figured it was worth a shot, since it's easy to return.


I tried the antennas in a few different places in the room -- by the window, 20 ft on either side of the TV, holding it up on the wall -- and I did notice there were definitely locations with better reception than others.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ken H* /forum/post/21632353
> 
> 
> Administrative Question:
> 
> 
> Is this topic used much for OTA reception hardware besides antennas?
> 
> 
> I'm considering reopening it and renaming it for all non-antenna reception hardware.
> 
> 
> Or should I leave it closed and re-title this topic to add all OTA reception hardware?
> 
> 
> Or other?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for your input.



Ken, I think combining the two topics is the best idea. Antennas and the associated hardware are all part of the same project, so I feel they should all be together.


Larry

SF


----------



## Konrad2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ken H* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Or should I leave it closed and re-title this topic to add all OTA reception hardware?



Depends on what you mean by "all" OTA reception hardware.

I think it makes sense to have one thread for antennas and related

hardware (towers, masts, rotators, baluns, preamps, distribution

amps, diplexors, splitters, attenuators, terminators, filters, ferrite,

coax, ...). But split out tuners into two threads: one for tuners with

TV/monitor type outputs (RF, composite, s-video, component, DVI, HDMI,

displayport, ...), and one for tuners with computer type outputs

(Ethernet, PCI cards, PCIe cards, firewire, USB, ...). Currently

there doesn't appear to be a good thread for discussion of tuners.


----------



## Ken H




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/21635552
> 
> 
> Depends on what you mean by "all" OTA reception hardware.



As noted in my original question: Meaning preamps, splitters, combiners, cable, baluns/transformers, mounting hardware, etc?


Tuners are an entirely different discussion issue. Due to the historical high level of interest, standalone tuners (STB) have always had a master topic at the top of the forum for reference, and individual topics for specific discussion.


PC based DTV tuners are discussed in the HTPC forum.


----------



## Konrad2

> Due to the historical high level of interest, standalone tuners (STB)

> have always had a master topic at the top of the forum for reference,

> and individual topics for specific discussion.


Unfindable.


> PC based DTV tuners are discussed in the HTPC forum.


Tuner discussion is scattered all over the place, buried under a mountain

of noise. :-(


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/21639384
> 
> 
> > Due to the historical high level of interest, standalone tuners (STB)
> 
> > have always had a master topic at the top of the forum for reference,
> 
> > and individual topics for specific discussion.
> 
> 
> Unfindable.



Findable. Look in the top threads.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=25


----------



## Ken H




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/21639384
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ken H* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> Due to the historical high level of interest, standalone tuners (STB) have always had a master topic at the top of the forum for reference, and individual topics for specific discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unfindable.
Click to expand...


For who?


Let me draw you a picture. The STB topic has been stuck at the top of this forum for over 5 years, and at this time is one of five topics there. Not unfindable. Just in case this still presents a problem, here's a link: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=179095 


In that topic is a list of all the current STB's one can buy new, and most of them have a link to a specific topic for that unit. It also contains a list of _all the known STB's ever available_, and to find a topic of discussion all it takes is a brief search using the brand or model number as a keyword. Not unfindable.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/21639384
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ken H* /forum/post/0
> 
> 
> PC based DTV tuners are discussed in the HTPC forum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tuner discussion is scattered all over the place, buried under a mountain
> 
> of noise. :-(
Click to expand...


I have no control over how that forum is organized or maintained. I would suggest asking a moderator over there for advice on how to find specific products, and would guess if you use brand or model numbers for searches in that specific forum you'd find lots of topics to check.


By the way, you should use the forum quote function when quoting others.


----------



## Ken H




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/21635295
> 
> 
> Ken, I think combining the two topics is the best idea. Antennas and the associated hardware are all part of the same project, so I feel they should all be together.
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF



3 for merging. Looks like a trend is developing.


----------



## Ken H




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/21635552
> 
> 
> I think it makes sense to have one thread for antennas and related
> 
> hardware (towers, masts, rotators, baluns, preamps, distribution
> 
> amps, diplexors, splitters, attenuators, terminators, filters, ferrite,
> 
> coax, ...)



4 for merging. A trend is developing.


----------



## jschweda19




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21613051
> 
> 
> Per your TVFool, I didn't think the RS set top antenna would work too well. Worth trying, though.
> 
> 
> Of course you can try building an antenna. Just make sure it the kind that is supposed to receive both VHF-HI and UHF bands.
> 
> 
> If it were me, I would just buy an ANT751.




Well I got the ANT751 installed this weekend. I used the digital compass app for my iphone to point my Antenna to 73 degrees. My signal is pretty great on most of the channels. However, I still get some pixelation or tiling. Would it help to upgrade the transformer (Balun) or maybe add an amplifier in the line?


Here is my TV Fool report again if it helps.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b8666649e307f 


Thanks again!!


----------



## arxaw

Where did you install it? Attic or outdoors?

Are your major channels of interest pixelating, or is it weaker channels on down the list?

How long is the coax line?


[edit] Regarding the balun, the one that comes with the antenna is fine. Make sure the wire connecting it to the antenna isn't twisted or laying across/touching any metal, except right where it connects onto the antenna.


----------



## jschweda19




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21651766
> 
> 
> Where did you install it? Attic or outdoors?
> 
> Are your major channels of interest pixelating, or is it weaker channels on down the list?



I put it in my attic.


The only channels that I really care about are 4.1 (WTMJ-DT), 6.1(WITI), 12.1(WISN-TV) and 58.1(WDJT-DT), 18(WVTW)


These are the NBC, Fox, CBS, ABC and CW affiliates in Milwaukee.


I noticed it most on 58.1, 6.1 and 12.1


----------



## arxaw

Are those the ones that are pixelating?

How long is your coax and is it RG6?


----------



## jschweda19

I have a 25' RG6 Quad shielded

http://www.walmart.com/ip/GE-Quad-Sh...le-25/16561373 


I notice it most on 58.1, 6.1 and 12.1


----------



## arxaw

With that short length of coax, a preamp is not likely to help. You need to install the antenna outside, as ctdish suggested.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jschweda19* /forum/post/21651865
> 
> 
> I have a 25' RG6 Quad shielded
> 
> http://www.walmart.com/ip/GE-Quad-Sh...le-25/16561373
> 
> 
> I notice it most on 58.1, 6.1 and 12.1



Certainly the antenna would be best mounted outside, if practical. There is another thing you might try. At this point, we can't "see" RF waves coming at us, so we can't know the best angle for reception I have had weak signals I could only recieve by pointing the antenna "up" from what seems to be plumb, or making it "crooked". No way of knowing, but that might actually be pointing directly into the oncoming RF. I can only say it works. Its tricky. One needs to be observing reception while adding angle. If you want to try this, you will need to work out how to do it yourself, there is no manual.


----------



## arxaw

difuse's suggestion to try a very slight upward tilt to the antenna is good, and definitely worth a try. Similar to how this Silver Sensor indoor antenna is tilted slightly.


----------



## Ken H

Moderators Note as of 2/15/2012: The "Antennas, rotators, boosters/preamps... for wide-band VHF/UHF" has been merged into this topic, which now covers not just antennas but preamps, rotors, antenna cable, mounting systems, termination, transformers, baluns, distribution amps, and all other OTA reception related equipment, with the exception of set-top-boxes, which are covered in The Official AVS STB Synopsis, also found 'stuck' at the top of the HDTV Technical Forum.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse* /forum/post/21652826
> 
> 
> There is another thing you might try... by pointing the antenna "up" from what seems to be plumb, or making it "crooked".



This works for roof mounted antennas as well. I found that raising the antenna's angle up about 15 degrees made most signals a little stronger. Some of the newer antennas are even coming with mounting brackets that allow you to make vertical adjustments.


Larry

SF


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/21658104
> 
> 
> This works for roof mounted antennas as well. I found that raising the antenna's angle up about 15 degrees made most signals a little stronger. Some of the newer antennas are even coming with mounting brackets that allow you to make vertical adjustments.
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF



I have think that we don't understand what's going on here. The idea that tilting an antenna up or down is going to make any difference doesn't make any sense. The 1 dB vertical beamwidth on even the highest gain UHF antennas (91XG or CM4228) is around 15 degrees. Tilting the antenna up or down a few degrees will not change the received signal strength by more than a fraction of a dB.


Huge tilts like 10 or 15 degrees make even less sense. Ducting cannot bend the signal that much. During my years of receiving NOAA low orbiting weather satellite on 1700 MHz, ducting affected the signals when the satellites were below 3 degrees in elevation, and most dramatically below 1 degree. Once the satellites were above 5 degrees the affect was zero.


Refraction over ridges and around buildings is common but the penalty in signal strength is huge for even less than 1 degree. TV Fool predictions for my location over two ridges about 0.5 degrees each is 50 dB. A 10 or 15 degree hill would essentially preclude any possibility of reception. Tilting the antenna up like that wouldn't make any difference. I know there are neighborhoods in San Francisco that cannot receive the Mt. Sutro stations practically in their backyard because they are severely blocked by hills.


So what's going on here with these reports about tilting the antenna making a difference? I think the first problem is that almost no one is measuring actual signal strength. Very few TVs have this feature. People who have HDHomeRun can do it. People who have a spectrum analyzer can do it. Most people have TVs that show Signal Quality. Signal strength only impacts Signal Quality if the Noise Margin is below about 15 dB, i.e. a fairly weak signal. For stronger signals that don't show a Signal Quality above 95%, multipath or other interference must be the issue.


I highly suspect that cases of improved Signal Quality by tilting the antenna is from decreased multipath and not from increased signal. If that improves your reception, then that's great. I think it's helpful though to understand what's actually happening.


Early on I tried tilting my antennas up and down while at 60' up on the tower. It made no difference at all in either strength or quality. I have a friend whose antennas are tilted down about 5 degrees from a wind storm and he hasn't noticed any difference.


I also realize that antennas in attics or otherwise indoors are operating in environments with lots of reflections so it's possible that putting the antenna in all sorts of orientations could increase the signal strength. This does not mean though that the signal outside of your house is actually coming from any strange direction. You don't want a situation where you need to tilt your antenna as that means your antenna is in a problem environment. A tilt that's good for one station might be bad for another.


Chuck


----------



## arxaw

With indoor reception, tilting the antenna _slightly_ is a good thing to at least try. I even saw a 2bay work best indoors once, when pointed straight up, which makes no sense. But with so many signals bouncing around indoors or in an attic, it's possible the antenna is sitting in a bad spot, so trying different locations should be considered. Even moving the antenna just a foot or two to the left, right, higher or lower can make a world of difference.


----------



## Konrad2

Chuck writes:

> The 1 dB vertical beamwidth on even the highest gain UHF antennas

> (91XG or CM4228) is around 15 degrees. Tilting the antenna up or down

> a few degrees will not change the received signal strength by more

> than a fraction of a dB.


Tilting the antenna up should reduce reception of reflections off the ground

(which might be good or bad). And reduce dynamic multipath from vehicles.

Demodulators have trouble with dynamic multipath. Although tilting up

might increase dynamic multipath from aircraft.


> I think the first problem is that almost no one is measuring actual

> signal strength. Very few TVs have this feature. People who have

> HDHomeRun can do it. People who have a spectrum analyzer can do it.


We should compile a list of tuners and list what info they provide.

In addition to real signal strength, the HDHomeRun also provides the

number of packets that are incorrect even after FEC (Forward Error

Correction). The goal is to get "te=0". Are there any other tuners

that can provide this info?


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21659476
> 
> 
> I have think that we don't understand what's going on here. The idea that tilting an antenna up or down is going to make any difference doesn't make any sense. The 1 dB vertical beamwidth on even the highest gain UHF antennas (91XG or CM4228) is around 15 degrees. Tilting the antenna up or down a few degrees will not change the received signal strength by more than a fraction of a dB.
> 
> 
> Huge tilts like 10 or 15 degrees make even less sense. Ducting cannot bend the signal that much. During my years of receiving NOAA low orbiting weather satellite on 1700 MHz, ducting affected the signals when the satellites were below 3 degrees in elevation, and most dramatically below 1 degree. Once the satellites were above 5 degrees the affect was zero.
> 
> 
> Refraction over ridges and around buildings is common but the penalty in signal strength is huge for even less than 1 degree. TV Fool predictions for my location over two ridges about 0.5 degrees each is 50 dB. A 10 or 15 degree hill would essentially preclude any possibility of reception. Tilting the antenna up like that wouldn't make any difference. I know there are neighborhoods in San Francisco that cannot receive the Mt. Sutro stations practically in their backyard because they are severely blocked by hills.
> 
> 
> So what's going on here with these reports about tilting the antenna making a difference? I think the first problem is that almost no one is measuring actual signal strength. Very few TVs have this feature. People who have HDHomeRun can do it. People who have a spectrum analyzer can do it. Most people have TVs that show Signal Quality. Signal strength only impacts Signal Quality if the Noise Margin is below about 15 dB, i.e. a fairly weak signal. For stronger signals that don't show a Signal Quality above 95%, multipath or other interference must be the issue.
> 
> 
> I highly suspect that cases of improved Signal Quality by tilting the antenna is from decreased multipath and not from increased signal. If that improves your reception, then that's great. I think it's helpful though to understand what's actually happening.
> 
> 
> Early on I tried tilting my antennas up and down while at 60' up on the tower. It made no difference at all in either strength or quality. I have a friend whose antennas are tilted down about 5 degrees from a wind storm and he hasn't noticed any difference.
> 
> 
> I also realize that antennas in attics or otherwise indoors are operating in environments with lots of reflections so it's possible that putting the antenna in all sorts of orientations could increase the signal strength. This does not mean though that the signal outside of your house is actually coming from any strange direction. You don't want a situation where you need to tilt your antenna as that means your antenna is in a problem environment. A tilt that's good for one station might be bad for another.
> 
> 
> Chuck



I think I can do some explaining. My first experience with "tilting" came by accident. I had a free mounted mast and discoverd a certain station in a certain direction would only be recieved if the antenna was tilted back a bit, and, of course, pointed in that direction. Very weak signal., so multipath was extremely doubtful. After some thinking, and pencil drawing, I satisfied myself that the antenna at that angle conformed to the lay of the land 300 meters in its front, the ground inclining from where it actually was. And, I satisfied myself that if the antenna were high enough, the "tilt" would not be needed. I will assign no cause or effect, as I cannot, but, a straight line drawn from the antenna without "tilt" would hit dirt at about 280 meters. With the tilt, it would clear all visible. Something like a gunnery firing solution. I currently have another station I recieve with a slight "tilt", with similar topographical indications. I have no useful theory, but wil state the procedure works.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/21658104
> 
> 
> I found that raising the antenna's angle up about 15 degrees made most signals a little stronger.
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF



I based that comment on actual experience. The signals from the stations transmitting from the South Bay here in the San Francisco Bay Area - from Mt. Allison and Monument Peak above Fremont 35 miles away - are 3 to 5 dB stronger here with the antenna tilted up 15 degrees, according to the SNR meter in my Sony. It also helped increase some of the signals from Sutro Tower just 3/4 mile away. I don't know if that meter indicates signal strength or signal quality, but whatever it is, it's higher with the 15 degree antenna tilt.


Like "difuse", I have a hill in the southeast direction about two blocks away that's about 100 feet higher than my antenna. Perhaps the antenna tilt is helping because of that hill. For Sutro the antenna is pointing up more toward the transmitting antennas instead of the hill below the tower. With the antenna tilted up that 15 degrees, I don't notice any degradation of signal on other channels, so it's a win-win.


This might be unique to my location, but it works for me and might work for others. With RF, you never know what will work and what won't, so it's worth trying all kinds of "weird" things to see what's best.


Larry

SF


----------



## bernieoc

Todays NY Times has an article describing that the 'Payroll Tax' bill has a provision to sell off the low vhf tv sprectum to big money companies.

Am I going to loose my PBS on Ch 3 (Roanoke VA)?Anyone that knows more -what is the story?

Bernieoc


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bernieoc* /forum/post/21660620
> 
> 
> Todays NY Times has an article describing that the 'Payroll Tax' bill has a provision to sell off the low vhf tv sprectum to big money companies.
> 
> Am I going to loose my PBS on Ch 3 (Roanoke VA)?Anyone that knows more -what is the story?
> 
> Bernieoc



There evidently is no provision in the bill that would remove stations fron Low VHF. Wireless providers don't seem to be interested. What the bill does is authorize auctions of spectrum that will be accepted by broadcast license holders. Part of the proceeds will go to the broadcaster to relocate. Seemingly, the FCC will be disallowed from reassigning new channels "down", That is, The FCC will not reassign UHF stations to VHF, or High band VHF to Low Band VHF. This business has been coming for a good while. But, WBRA does not seem to be in danger of being put off channel 3, even though, I think , that station would prefer to go higher.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/21659798
> 
> 
> We should compile a list of tuners and list what info they provide.
> 
> In addition to real signal strength, the HDHomeRun also provides the
> 
> number of packets that are incorrect even after FEC (Forward Error
> 
> Correction). The goal is to get "te=0". Are there any other tuners
> 
> that can provide this info?



I don't have the HDHomeRun so if I understand what you're saying then the Sony TVs do this, at least the ones I've see. The diagnostic screen displays a number of things including uncorrected bit errors and an AGC value, which is real signal strength if you know how to interpret it.


Chuck


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/21660509
> 
> 
> I based that comment on actual experience. The signals from the stations transmitting from the South Bay here in the San Francisco Bay Area - from Mt. Allison and Monument Peak above Fremont 35 miles away - are 3 to 5 dB stronger here with the antenna tilted up 15 degrees, according to the SNR meter in my Sony.



The Sony SNR meter is a Signal Quality meter. If your Sony is like the ones I have seen, there is an AGC number on the diagnostic screen. The lower the number the stronger the signal. If tilting the antenna up is actually increasing the signal strength, then you'll see the number go down as the antenna is tilted up.



> Quote:
> It also helped increase some of the signals from Sutro Tower just 3/4 mile away. I don't know if that meter indicates signal strength or signal quality, but whatever it is, it's higher with the 15 degree antenna tilt.



For some reason that's difficult for me to imagine, you have multipath. The noise margin of your signals from Sutro tower has to be in excess of 70 dB although it's possible because you are so close that you are way out of the main vertical lobe of the antennas. So the noise margin could be lower but it's still got to be a huge number. Any antenna should be good enough. I've attached a spectrum analyzer image of KUVS which is 14 miles LOS with 57 KW in my direction. Note the marker on the pilot carrier is at -18 dBm. The digital cliff occurs around -82 dBm on my setup. That gives me 64 dB noise margin on that station. The SNR is 31 dB. The Sutro stations have on the order of 10 times the power and you're 18 times closer than I am to KUVS. Without looking at a spectrum analyzer, I think it would be very difficult to see any signal strength change by tilting the antenna 15 degrees.



> Quote:
> Like "difuse", I have a hill in the southeast direction about two blocks away that's about 100 feet higher than my antenna. Perhaps the antenna tilt is helping because of that hill. For Sutro the antenna is pointing up more toward the transmitting antennas instead of the hill below the tower. With the antenna tilted up that 15 degrees, I don't notice any degradation of signal on other channels, so it's a win-win.



How far from you is the crest of the hill? In order for the crest of the hill to be 15 degrees, it would have to be only 373 feet away. I'm betting it's a lot farther than that.











> Quote:
> This might be unique to my location, but it works for me and might work for others. With RF, you never know what will work and what won't, so it's worth trying all kinds of "weird" things to see what's best.



The point of my post is not to say that placing your antenna in strange orientations can never improve the reception, just that it's not likely to be because the signal strength went up.


It's too bad that the TV manufacturers are so short sighted that they don't include a Signal Strength meter along with the Signal Quality meter. It would help a lot to diagnose reception problems and I believe most people are smart enough to understand the purpose of the two meters with a couple sentences of explanation in their owner's manual.


Chuck


----------



## Ken H




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/21660509
> 
> 
> With RF, you never know what will work and what won't, so it's worth trying all kinds of "weird" things to see what's best.



A big +1.


----------



## arxaw

Some TVs don't have any type of signal meter at all now. Too bad the FCC doesn't require at least some sort of signal indicator for antenna aiming purposes. Even the cheapest cellphones include a "bars" meter.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse* /forum/post/21660172
> 
> 
> I think I can do some explaining. My first experience with "tilting" came by accident. I had a free mounted mast and discoverd a certain station in a certain direction would only be recieved if the antenna was tilted back a bit, and, of course, pointed in that direction. Very weak signal., so multipath was extremely doubtful.



I'm not trying to be pedantic here, but I'm wondering how you know it's a weak signal? If you have a spectrum analyzer or a HDHomeRun setup then you know. If you don't then it's essentially impossible to know.


Without my analyzer I would think that a 10KW station 125 miles away was stronger than several 1MW stations 54 miles away because it has a higher signal quality. The analyzer tells me though that the 1MW stations are actually 20 dB stronger but suffer from multipath.



> Quote:
> After some thinking, and pencil drawing, I satisfied myself that the antenna at that angle conformed to the lay of the land 300 meters in its front, the ground inclining from where it actually was. And, I satisfied myself that if the antenna were high enough, the "tilt" would not be needed. I will assign no cause or effect, as I cannot, but, a straight line drawn from the antenna without "tilt" would hit dirt at about 280 meters. With the tilt, it would clear all visible. Something like a gunnery firing solution. I currently have another station I recieve with a slight "tilt", with similar topographical indications. I have no useful theory, but wil state the procedure works.



It's great that it works for you but this is a case of correlation is not causation. The vertical lobe of any consumer TV antenna is so wide that it's not possible to have any noticeable affect on signal strength by tilting it up or down a few degrees. If tilting the antenna a little has no affect on the signal strength, then the only other way to improve the SNR is to reduce multipath (or other noise) which is what must be happening.


Chuck


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21661329
> 
> 
> The Sony SNR meter is a Signal Quality meter. If your Sony is like the ones I have seen, there is an AGC number on the diagnostic screen. The lower the number the stronger the signal. If tilting the antenna up is actually increasing the signal strength, then you'll see the number go down as the antenna is tilted up.



That is correct. My diagnostic screen shows the virtual channel, physical channel (as they call it), frequency, modulation (always 8VSB), status (locked or unlocked), errors, SNR meter(dB),and AGC (%).


Normally, the higher the SNR the lower the AGC, but for some Sutro stations the AGC is low but the SNR is not correspondingly high. Does that indicate that I have multipath?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21661329
> 
> 
> The noise margin of your signals from Sutro tower has to be in excess of 70 dB although it's possible because you are so close that you are way out of the main vertical lobe of the antennas. So the noise margin could be lower but it's still got to be a huge number. Any antenna should be good enough.



According to the TVFool calculations, KPIX 29 has the strongest signal with a noise margin of 89.6 and a power of -1.3, down to KFSF 34, the weakest from Sutro, at 78.6 -12.2. Yes, I have extremely strong signals here! I can get a picture on all of the Sutro channels using a 4 inch length of wire stuck in the hole of the F-connector on the TV. However, with the 10-7-13/CM4228 connected to the TV I can null out many of the stations. With the antenna pointed at Walnut Grove, approximately 50 degrees, I get a signal that's below the cliff edge for KOFY, KBCW, KQED and KMTP. There are other directions where I can null out KGO, KCNS and KTVU, too. I find that to be quite amazing considering the signal strength!



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21661329
> 
> 
> The Sutro stations have on the order of 10 times the power and you're 18 times closer than I am to KUVS. Without looking at a spectrum analyzer, I think it would be very difficult to see any signal strength change by tilting the antenna 15 degrees.



If I point my antenna at 267 degrees, directly in the direction of Sutro, I do not get the best signals, but I do get all of them. My fixed antenna for my DVR is locked in at 267 degrees, and raising the antenna 15 degrees does increase the SNR and decrease the AGC for some of the stations.


Some of you might be interested in my signal levels vs ERP and antenna location. I've included a link to a photo of the Sutro Tower antennas showing where they're located and who shares the combined antennas.
http://www.larrykenney.com/images/sutro1024id.jpg 

What I find interesting is the difference in SNR for the various stations sharing the same antenna. Here's a list of SNR levels I get from my fixed antenna:


Station, RF ch, ERP, SNR

------------------------


KGO 7 - 23.8 - 30 Southeast tower, separate antennas

KBCW 45 - 1000 - 27


KPIX 29 - 1000 - 33 West tower

KRON 38 - 1000 - 32

KTVU 44 - 1000 - 29


KOFY 19 - 568 - 33 West tower, separate antenna


KQED 30 - 710 - 25 Northeast tower

KMTP 33 - 480 - 26

KCNS 39 - 1000 - 30

KCSM 43 - 500 - 31


KFSF 34 - 370 - 33 Northeast tower, separate antenna


If I switch to the 10-7-13/CM4228, I can peak the signals individually moving the antenna between 220 and 310 degrees, but none of them peak in exactly the same direction.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21661329
> 
> 
> How far from you is the crest of the hill? In order for the crest of the hill to be 15 degrees, it would have to be only 373 feet away. I'm betting it's a lot farther than that.



I'm sure my antenna is not shooting over the crest of the hill that's southeast of me. The hill is two blocks away and about 100 feet higher than my antenna. There's no way the antenna is shooting above the hill top, but that 15 degrees does make a difference!


I've run on here long enough.










Larry

SF


----------



## deltaguy

I believe multipath is the rule for most all antenna locations, including outdoors. Therefore tilting, and all kinds of strange applications, working better would not be an exception.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21662279
> 
> 
> I'm not trying to be pedantic here, but I'm wondering how you know it's a weak signal? If you have a spectrum analyzer or a HDHomeRun setup then you know. If you don't then it's essentially impossible to know.
> 
> 
> Of course you are being pedantic. I have no problem with that. This is an LD station, that is reckoned to have an ERP of 15KW. TVFool figures a NM(db) of 4,5, and, the PWR figure at -85.9 for the location. The transmitter is 20 miles away. The TV Fairy would have to be working a major miracle for this not to be a pretty weak signal where the antenna was.
> 
> 
> Without my analyzer I would think that a 10KW station 125 miles away was stronger than several 1MW stations 54 miles away because it has a higher signal quality. The analyzer tells me though that the 1MW stations are actually 20 dB stronger but suffer from multipath.
> 
> 
> I don't believe I've had such illusions. My only judgement about a signal has been on the issues of presence and stability. I tend to ignore anything else, as just about anything else would be meaningless for DTV. Analog may have other significant issues. I know a business that has 2 wide screens frequently displaying nothing because a they have suffered from a professional antenna installation. By the book. Thats good for government or military applications, where doing things "right" will justify failure.
> 
> 
> 
> It's great that it works for you but this is a case of correlation is not causation. The vertical lobe of any consumer TV antenna is so wide that it's not possible to have any noticeable affect on signal strength by tilting it up or down a few degrees. If tilting the antenna a little has no affect on the signal strength, then the only other way to improve the SNR is to reduce multipath (or other noise) which is what must be happening.
> 
> 
> Chuck



I think I will disagree, pleading that our knowledge of physics is still rather primative. I have specifically not claimed a cause and effect, and will not accept that there may not be such. I have also not claimed any theory as to "tilting" as there is no compelling evidence to form a theory in any direction. In the current case, there is no obvious evidence for multipath or other noise, but I do not reject that this might be the case.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/21662659
> 
> 
> Normally, the higher the SNR the lower the AGC, but for some Sutro stations the AGC is low but the SNR is not correspondingly high. Does that indicate that I have multipath?



Yes. I think deltaguy is correct. Multipath is the rule, not the exception. It doesn't take a huge amount of multpath to drop the SNRs from the low 30's to mid to upper 20's. With all the buildings you have around, you must have reflections like crazy.



> Quote:
> According to the TVFool calculations, KPIX 29 has the strongest signal with a noise margin of 89.6 and a power of -1.3, down to KFSF 34, the weakest from Sutro, at 78.6 -12.2. Yes, I have extremely strong signals here!



It's hard for most of us to fathom signals that strong.











> Quote:
> With the antenna pointed at Walnut Grove, approximately 50 degrees, I get a signal that's below the cliff edge for KOFY, KBCW, KQED and KMTP. There are other directions where I can null out KGO, KCNS and KTVU, too. I find that to be quite amazing considering the signal strength!



What's probably happening is that you found a location where the reflections are within 15 dB of the main signal so the SNR is below the cliff. No antenna has nulls of 80 dB. You could get an idea about this by looking at the AGC number for KMAX or KOVR which should be fairly high, and then try to get any Sutro station to have a higher number. I'd be surprised if you can make that happen.



> Quote:
> Some of you might be interested in my signal levels vs ERP and antenna location.



We can't know what the transmitter SNR is for any station but I think they all shoot for above 30 dB. Any SNR's you get in the 20's is due to multipath.



> Quote:
> I'm sure my antenna is not shooting over the crest of the hill that's southeast of me. The hill is two blocks away and about 100 feet higher than my antenna. There's no way the antenna is shooting above the hill top, but that 15 degrees does make a difference!



What I was trying to get at here was the elevation angle of the hill as seen from your antenna. You could use Google Earth to measure the distance and get the elevations to calculate the angle.


Chuck


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse* /forum/post/21662914
> 
> 
> This is an LD station, that is reckoned to have an ERP of 15KW. TVFool figures a NM(db) of 4,5, and, the PWR figure at -85.9 for the location. The transmitter is 20 miles away. The TV Fairy would have to be working a major miracle for this not to be a pretty weak signal where the antenna was.



I could say the same thing for all my stations coming from Walnut Grove. TVFool says the NM for those stations should be close to 0 dB. TVFool is pretty good for predicting LOS paths but notoriously poor for non LOS paths. I just measured the NM for KOVR, a 2 edge path which TVFool predicts 0.6 dB NM. The number is actually 38 dB. Even if I subtract out antenna gain, they're still underestimating by 25 dB. That's a pretty bad model.


The bottom line is that if you can't measure it, then you don't know what you have. And if you don't know what you have, then it's very hard to troubleshoot a reception problem.


Chuck


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21663843
> 
> 
> I could say the same thing for all my stations coming from Walnut Grove. TVFool says the NM for those stations should be close to 0 dB. TVFool is pretty good for predicting LOS paths but notoriously poor for non LOS paths. I just measured the NM for KOVR, a 2 edge path which TVFool predicts 0.6 dB NM. The number is actually 38 dB. Even if I subtract out antenna gain, they're still underestimating by 25 dB. That's a pretty bad model.
> 
> 
> The bottom line is that if you can't measure it, then you don't know what you have. And if you don't know what you have, then it's very hard to troubleshoot a reception problem.
> 
> 
> Chuck



As I see it, I did not have a reception problem. I had reception. Using numbers, I could declare I was alright, without reception, or, I could add elements and hight until I got reception. Or, I could use alternative means, which I did. That I cannot quantitatively codify the results does not worry me as far as reception goes. If I have violated any Theory or Laws of Physics in doing so, I apologize to the appropriate authority. I realize that in performing the procedures in question, I risk learning something, and suxh knowledge might not be desirable.


----------



## Vidop

If any of you are interested in a low-cost (compared to others) RF signal strength meter, have a look at the Digiair. Here is one site to get one.
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...8DIGIAIR-DB%29 .

I bought mine six years ago and it is REALLY handy to have when aligning an antenna. Two things I would like to see improved on this are-a larger LCD screen and better battery life. Aside from that, it is a great little tool to have. FYI.


----------



## Ken.F




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Vidop* /forum/post/21664651
> 
> 
> Here is one site to get one.
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...8DIGIAIR-DB%29 .



Availability: Discontinued (Not Available)


----------



## tdavis

When I want to mess around my TV antenna, I use this android program:

https://market.android.com/details?i...NvbS56YXJlbiJd 


with my HDHomerun over the wireless connection..


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21663674
> 
> 
> What's probably happening is that you found a location where the reflections are within 15 dB of the main signal so the SNR is below the cliff. No antenna has nulls of 80 dB. You could get an idea about this by looking at the AGC number for KMAX or KOVR which should be fairly high, and then try to get any Sutro station to have a higher number. I'd be surprised if you can make that happen.
> 
> Chuck



I'll try that when I get some time to play around. It'll be an interesting project.


Larry

SF


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Too bad the FCC doesn't require at least some sort of signal indicator for antenna aiming purposes. Even the cheapest cellphones include a "bars" meter.



A +1.


And require that signal indicator display in numbers, not just silly bars. And even better would be a requirement that they use a set algorithm, so measurements between sets would be comparable.


The FCC sets rules for a lot of inane things, they should at least set some rules for practical useful items.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Todays NY Times has an article describing that the 'Payroll Tax' bill has a provision to sell off the low vhf tv sprectum to big money companies.
> 
> Am I going to loose my PBS on Ch 3 (Roanoke VA)?Anyone that knows more -what is the story?



Even if forced to move to a higher real RF channel, it would most likely retain 3 as its virtual channel.

Like difuse said, nobody really wants vhf-low.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/21667067
> 
> 
> Even if forced to move to a higher real RF channel, it would most likely retain 3 as its virtual channel.
> 
> Like difuse said, nobody really wants vhf-low.



Acrually, WBRA's virtual channel is 15, its old analog channel. My guess is that the station lost a lot more than it gained by moving to Ch. 3 It was a difficult Bill to read, as most are, but I saw nothing that suggested any danger to those holding LowVHF licenses. There was a difficult to interpret clause that restricted moving stations up to UHF from VHF. What the Bill actually might do remains to be seen, as the FCC was given some nebulous

language to work with. In the next 15 years, probably some spectrum in some markets will be sold. My guess is that the economic health of OTA TV will determine most of what happens. This might not be the last word from Congress in this matter, also.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Acrually, WBRA's virtual channel is 15, its old analog channel. My guess is that the station lost a lot more than it gained by moving to Ch. 3



Wow, that must have really screwed some people up going from uhf to vhf-low, when most of the stations were doing the exact opposite, heh.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/21669616
> 
> 
> Wow, that must have really screwed some people up going from uhf to vhf-low, when most of the stations were doing the exact opposite, heh.



I was about 80 miles from the transmitter at transition. I watched the station occaisionally on analog, but never got ANY reception from it on digital. I was never sure what the idea was was putting the station on CH.3.


----------



## Vidop




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ken.F* /forum/post/21664680
> 
> 
> Availability: Discontinued (Not Available)



You are quite right-it is no longer available at Solid Signal. I apologize for not noticing that. I see that you can buy it on eBay, though. If anybody is interested. Thanks for the correction.


----------



## Ken.F




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Vidop* /forum/post/21673059
> 
> 
> I see that you can buy it on eBay, though. If anybody is interested.


 Sears has it for $170.


----------



## L David Matheny




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ken.F* /forum/post/21673210
> 
> Sears has it for $170.



I saw that, too. But then I noticed that the Sears site says, "Sold and shipped by SolidSignal.com".


----------



## brycenesbitt

Dear AVS members;


Does anyone have experience with channel 54 (RF 50 UHF) reception, in the Berkeley flats or beyond?


My goal is to receive that channel OTA... is this realistic? Right now I get about 20% signal strength on the TiVO using a generic rabbit ear/loop antenna, which is not enough for a picture. The TiVO does not seem to calculate signal to noise ratios or any other details.


Device: *TiVO HD XL* with two RF inputs

Location: *Acton at Ada, Berkeley CA 94702*

Desired Reception: *KQEH/KQED Plus 54.1*

Available antenna mounting location: first floor chimney 12 feet up from TV, or 2nd floor chimney with 360 degree sky view 30 feet away from TV.


According to TVFool the RF 50 signal skirts the hills and I'm right at the edge. Is it worth trying to get an antenna to pull this station in?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post21684267


----------



## arxaw

brycenesbitt,

What's the link to your TVFool report for your exact address?


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21687878
> 
> 
> brycenesbitt,
> 
> What's the link to your TVFool report for your exact address?



Hi,


in his original post he gave:


Acton at Ada, Berkeley CA 94702


Which intersection allowed me to locate his closer Lat. and Lon. which I transfered toTVFool producing:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b863b58f857cb 


Please look at his location using his zip code, I cannot see a way to provide a link to the "TV Fool Google map"

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90 


That TV Fool page is wonderful here in the SF bay area with hills surrounding the flatlands near the bay.


Remember to click on "Show lines pointing to each transmitter"!


SHF


----------



## rabbit73

*SFischer1*:


AFAIK you can't link directly to the map, but you can link to the tvfool report made from the map by clicking on "Make Radar Plot" above the right corner of the map. You can, however, copy the map and put it in an attachment (as I have done below for *brycenesbitt*) or link to your image host.

*brycenesbitt*:


Here is the tvfool report from the map at 10ft:
www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b8668666aeb54 


Here is the tvfool report from the map at 30ft:
www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b86a1ed805484 


Note that KQEH 54.1 (RF 50) is 2Edge at 10ft but 1Edge at 30ft, which would probably make reception more reliable. Besides getting your outdoor antenna higher, it might be necessary to try different locations on your property because of the hills.


You really need to make a tvfool report yourself using the maps feature and place the marker on the map where the antenna will be mounted, because the location is so critical.


> Quote:
> Is it worth trying to get an antenna to pull this station in?



Yes.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/21690080
> 
> 
> SFischer1:
> 
> 
> AFAIK you can't link directly to the map, but you can link to the tvfool report made from the map by clicking on "Make Radar Plot" above the right corner of the map. You can, however, copy the map and put it in an attachment (as I have done below) or link to your image host.
> 
> ...



Hi,


Sorry for the confusion, but I am *not the OP.*

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=8351 


Just confused as to how to get stations 180 degrees apart and more at 90 degrees.


Larry has suggested one to the North and one to the South.



> Quote:
> The antenna pointed south should be able to be adjusted to pick up the South Bay stations plus the stations from Sutro Tower and Mt. San Bruno, but there's no guarantees.
> 
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF



The OP may have an attachment point 30 feet up, but I do not understand it completely.


I am a old hand with attachments, I need to clean up the old unneeded ones.


As the Google map generated by TVFool is so useful, I just wish that it can be linked like the radar ones can.


Attachment Statistics

You are currently using 6.26 MB to store 86 uploaded attachments.


SHF


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> As the Google map generated by TVFool is so useful, I just wish that it can be linked like the radar ones can.



Quite true! I've found the only effective way to share that map is to either copy and paste the actual coordinates (below lower left of map) to the recipient so they can generate the same view as needed or to do a screen shot.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Just confused as to how to get stations 180 degrees apart and more at 90 degrees.



In his case with most of the stations at 227 and 318 degrees above 50 NM, it may be a blessing in disguise to have those stations in the antennas null zone or on the back side. As strong as the vhf stations are, he should be able to get those with a uhf only antenna.

The G-1483 http://www.summitsource.com/antennac...le-p-8517.html 


would be about the cheapest way to go, 30 ft up in the air pointed at RF50 with maybe a small upward tilt.



Or he could build his own GH4 : http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/gh_u/gh4_13u4.html


----------



## xosubuckeyex




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/21568834
> 
> 
> xosubuckeyex:
> 
> 
> Welcome to the forum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your signals are very strong. Try this inexpensive indoor antenna first:
> www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103077
> 
> 
> With an indoor antenna, sometimes it is necessary to try different locations. You can make the antenna coax longer by using an F81 coupler with a coax extension.
> www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103459
> www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103648
> 
> 
> DO NOT use an antenna with a built-in amplifier; it will be overloaded.
> 
> 
> Please let us know how it works out.



Unfortunately it worked out at about 70% rate. The signal will have a millisecond cut about every 30 seconds on some of the major channels. I'm only getting a strong signal on 4 stations + their substations.


The problem might be that I'm very constricted in the location of the antenna. Behind the TV, it faces the south, but there is probably about 2 feet of drywall/brick down the LOS on the way out of the building. Unless I'm willing to expose a coax along the ceiling of my living room to try different locations.


This antenna is very small (the wire circle is about 8" diameter), do you think I could get a "bigger" antenna to avoid all the cutting out? Or would that make no difference? Should I try a different antenna altogether in the same location?


As a last resort, if I'm forced to expose the coax cable, how long can I make this cable? I'm thinking I'll need about 30' before hitting an upstairs window.


----------



## arxaw

I think the antenna needs to be moved around to find a better reception spot. Reception indoors is all about location. An outside wall or window _away from any possibly interfering electronic devices_, facing South would be best. You can probably add up to 50' of RG6 coax with no problems. It is a slow trial and error process, but eventually, you'll probably find a reliable spot for the antenna. Moving it as little as a foot at a time can make a huge difference. Slightly different elevations can make a huge difference, too.


If WGCT channel 8 is of no interest to you, all your other channels are in the UHF band, and the VHF dipole rods can likely be collapsed or even unscrewed from the antenna, without impacting reception. Extending them likely won't help with your UHF reception. UHF does not need a large antenna - one of several advantages of that band. And the loop on your antenna is actually larger than most other similar looking indoor antennas.


----------



## hocobo23

So I just moved to a townhome. Upon inspection I noticed Coax connections in every bedroom and the main floor and basement. I also noticed that there was a seperate line of dual coax that I assumed was coming from a Satalite. I checked outside and sure enough there was a dish on the roof. I went in the attic and there is also a large OTA antenna in the attic (6'x4'). I didnt want to pay for Dish, so I attempted to connect my TV (Sony KDL55EX710) to the regular Coax connection and i got low quality SDTV in widescreen with solid chanel #'s (2,4,5,7 etc.), in the past when I have done HDTV OTA they have been chanels with numbers like 2.1,5.1,7.3 etc.

I then hooked up a small bowtie antenna and got HDTV channels (1080, with digital chanel #s) although with poor reception (i didnt get all the local chanels...). So then I tried taking my bowtie antenna into the attic and unhooked the large OTA antenna and hooked up my small bowtie to the coax that was running to the OTA antenna. I still got low quality SDTV chanels with solid chanel #s!!!!

My question is this: Why am I getting these low quality SDTV chanels when I use the coax hookups on the wall, even when I disconnect what should be the source (large OTA antenna) and hook up my bowtie/ EVEN WHEN i am getting HDTV when i run my antenna straight to my TV????????? Thanks in advance!


----------



## arxaw

The attic antenna should get your local digital OTA channels (with sub-channel numbers like 2-1, 5-1, etc.


It sounds like the coax you connected to the TV is going to some other source, *or* you're not doing a proper channel scan. Make sure you have selected *Antenna* channels in the channel setup menu, not *Cable*. Then run autoscan or "Add digital Channels."


----------



## Ennui

To verify the coax connections and routing, I would short one end and use an ohm meter or continuity tester to sort them out.


----------



## holl_ands

Since there are NO Analog channels on the air, they must be coming

from either an old SAT system or Cable. Trace & identify ALL cables.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

You need to sort out the spaghetti-mess of cabling. It appears that the cables don't do where you think they do. You're also getting analog cable from a cable hookup, so check the outside cable connection to see if it's connected and the cable company is still feeding it with a "basic" service.


----------



## A J




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/21711139
> 
> 
> Since there are *NO Analog channels on the air*...



There may not be any at that location, but there are several low power analog stations in the Charlotte area. Every time I re-scan I have to then delete all of those snowy analog channels. I wish my TV had only a digital tuner, like my CM-7000PAL DVR has, so analog stations would be ignored by the TV, too.


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A J* /forum/post/21713335
> 
> 
> There may not be any at that location, but there are several low power analog stations in the Charlotte area. Every time I re-scan I have to then delete all of those snowy analog channels. I wish my TV had only a digital tuner, like my CM-7000PAL DVR has, so analog stations would be ignored by the TV, too.



All analog LPs will be shut down by Sept 2015.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A J* /forum/post/21713335
> 
> 
> ... I wish my TV had only a digital tuner, like my CM-7000PAL DVR has, so analog stations would be ignored by the TV, too.



A lot of TV tuners now have "digital-only" scan, often referred to as "Add digital channels" or something similar. In addition to only scanning for digital, this option usually adds channels to the list of those found in the initial scan. A great feature for antenna freaks.










Many Sony TVs have this, as do Sanyo.


----------



## hocobo23

I ran a scan using "add digital chanels" from my tv. The really odd thing is how i get the digital chanels from my small antena when hooked directly from my tv, but not when i take the small antena to the attic. I am guessing that whoever lived here before bypassed that attic antenna and ran the coax to the SAT, any ideas how i verify this???


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hocobo23* /forum/post/21720691
> 
> 
> I ran a scan using "add digital chanels" from my tv. The really odd thing is how i get the digital chanels from my small antena when hooked directly from my tv, but not when i take the small antena to the attic. I am guessing that whoever lived here before bypassed that attic antenna and ran the coax to the SAT, any ideas how i verify this???



Physically trace out the coax lines to see where they run. Or follow Ennui's instructions above, using an ohm meter or continuity tester.


----------



## mp11

I'm interested in getting a CM 3671 antenna, but everywhere I look the gain info isn't there. Anyone know what the gain numbers might be? Thanks.


----------



## arxaw

I would check with ChannelMaster. http://www.channelmaster.com 


Where in South LA are you located?


----------



## mp11




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21721720
> 
> 
> I would check with ChannelMaster. http://www.channelmaster.com
> 
> 
> Where in South LA are you located?



Channelmaster site tells all you want to know about the 3671 except gain. Very strange.

I'm about 40 minutes northwest of Lafayette.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Channelmaster site tells all you want to know about the 3671 except gain.



Modeled gain charts for the CM3671B are here :
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## arxaw

What station are you trying to receive that would require an all-channel antenna?


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mp11* /forum/post/21721481
> 
> 
> I'm interested in getting a CM 3671 antenna, but everywhere I look the gain info isn't there. Anyone know what the gain numbers might be? Thanks.


 VHF-LO 5.6 db / VHF-Hi 10.9 db / UHF 10 db 


Channel Master's UHF numbers look weak for such a large antenna, although it did well using Ken Nist's modeling.


As arxaw asked, what low band channel are you looking for? I don't see anything interesting near you below VHF 7.


----------



## holl_ands

Stark Electronic still has Gain Charts for old C-M antennas:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg2.htm


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/21711139
> 
> 
> Since there are NO Analog channels on the air, they must be coming
> 
> from either an old SAT system or Cable. Trace & identify ALL cables.



... and make sure that the coax going to the TV is screwed on tight! Last night, I went out on a service call at a condominium where I had previously installed a superb multi-market headend that mixes 18 transmitters from Washington, DC, Falls Church and Goldvein, Virginia, and Baltimore and Annapolis Maryland. The complaint was that the resident was not getting WRC 4.1 and was instead getting "Comcast" on channel 4, but only in the morning.


Wel, since WRC 4.1 used to be on analog 4 but is now on UHF 48, there was no direct connection between the missing digital channel and the phantom analog one. This customer's condo is less than one mile from the 4.1, channel 48 transmitter and the direct UHF 48 leaking into the push-on F fitting on the back of their TV was phase canceling the desired processed UHF 48 from the master antenna system, and the phantom analog 4 was probably because a neighbor in a nearby unit was using the channel 4 RF output on his cable box or VCR, and that neighbor's own push connector jumper was enabling his cable box output to be weakly broadcast. I solved the problem for this customer by just giving her the little piece of coax that was attached to my test meter. I won't even bother to find out who is leaking analog 4 in the building because it is now of no concern to me.


----------



## mp11




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21722112
> 
> 
> What station are you trying to receive that would require an all-channel antenna?



This antenna's main purpose will be for DXing. No particular channel for continuous viewing.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/21722875
> 
> VHF-LO 5.6 db / VHF-Hi 10.9 db / UHF 10 db
> 
> 
> Channel Master's UHF numbers look weak for such a large antenna, although it did well using Ken Nist's modeling.
> 
> 
> As arxaw asked, what low band channel are you looking for? I don't see anything interesting near you below VHF 7.



A large part of my DXing will be Mexico and Central America and hopefully farther south...all low band VHF. And the numbers do look a bit weak. That's why I'm getting comparisons with this Antennacraft 1850 which is slightly larger, and VHF-lo shows as 6.2 db. But another concern is quality. Does the 1850 have the same quality as the CM 3671? Any suggestions are appreciated.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/21722912
> 
> 
> Stark Electronic still has Gain Charts for old C-M antennas:
> http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg2.htm



Thanks for those charts Holl_ands


----------



## arxaw

Ah, makes sense, now.


----------



## bcg123

I posted this already elsewhere in the forum, but I was advised to post it here, so sorry for the double-post.


I am new to Houston, and my husband and I bought a new HDTV two weeks ago. We want to get OTA programming since we mostly just watch a few sitcoms and Netflix, no sports. The only channels we care about are the main network channels plus PBS (so, ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, and PBS).


The problem is, it's looking impossible to get OTA. I began with an inexpensive rabbit ears-style antenna (RCA Basic Indoor Antenna). Initially, that got NBC, PBS (sometimes), and FOX, but not CBS or ABC. We watched one night of TV on NBC, but during the first minute of the last show, it began cutting out badly (it had been basically perfect previously), so we turned it off. Since then, we can barely get ANYTHING (usually channel 38 and sometimes 20 and others above channel 38), despite trying multiple positions (although we are limited now by a short-ish cord--maybe 3-4 feet?). So, I bought a fancy $75 antenna at an electronics store: it was a flat, multidirectional, amplified indoor antenna, and it was no better, so I returned it (I now know that the amplified bit was a problem, and given the location of Houston's antenna farm, the multidirectional probably wasn't helpful). The cord wasn't long enough for either of the antennas to be actually on the windowsill, but the positions pointing directly out the window didn't seem to be any better (about a foot away from the window, although also pretty low, since the only space was on top of the coffee table).


There are lots of things going against our set-up, I know: the only window in our living room (where the TV is) faces north, and so does our balcony. We are living in a second (top) floor apartment in zip code 77027 (about 13 miles from the antenna farm), and Greenway Plaza is just a few blocks to the south of us, so that's probably in the way, too (the signals are pretty much all southwest of us).


So, my question is, is there anything better I can try without an outdoor antenna? Although some people have satellite dishes in my complex, they are pretty much all attached to balconies, not the roof, and I don't think an antenna would help in that case (since my balcony faces north and it would actually be attached at a lower point than the indoor antenna is located). I am in an end unit, so from one end of my balcony, I have about 5 feet to the corner; if I had an antenna that could stretch that far (or reach the corner), then it might get some signal to the south (but still, Greenway Plaza is in the way). I've seen a lot of people recommend the following antennas, but I'm not sure if any of these are likely to help in my situation:


Terk Technology HDTVi VHF/UHF HDTV Indoor Antenna

Terk HDTVa Indoor Amplified High-Definition Antenna

RCA ANT751R Outdoor Antenna

Winegard HD7696P Off-Air HDTV Antenna (rec. by hdtvantennalabs.com)


Any advice? Thanks!


----------



## Konrad2

> A large part of my DXing will be Mexico and Central America and

> hopefully farther south...all low band VHF.


Why not seperates? (3 antennas: VHF-LO + VHF-HI + UHF)

Higher performance and easier to filter out interference from

non-TV frequencies.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21722112
> 
> 
> What station are you trying to receive that would require an all-channel antenna?



He may want to consider a Winegard 8200 as well as the CM3671.


----------



## arxaw

bcg123,

Please enter your address at *http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=29*

Post a link to the results page back in this thread.


There are no magic antennas that will make up for poor indoor location, but perhaps we can suggest something to at least try.


----------



## mp11




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/21724536
> 
> 
> > A large part of my DXing will be Mexico and Central America and
> 
> > hopefully farther south...all low band VHF.
> 
> 
> Why not seperates? (3 antennas: VHF-LO + VHF-HI + UHF)
> 
> Higher performance and easier to filter out interference from
> 
> non-TV frequencies.



I know that separate antennas are better, but more costly and more windload(stacked). Although I can see that possibility down the road.


----------



## pamajestic




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/21724536
> 
> 
> > A large part of my DXing will be Mexico and Central America and
> 
> > hopefully farther south...all low band VHF.
> 
> 
> Why not seperates? (3 antennas: VHF-LO + VHF-HI + UHF)
> 
> Higher performance and easier to filter out interference from
> 
> non-TV frequencies.



Agree, plus you could easily stack the VHF-HI and UHF for even more gain.


----------



## bcg123

My TVFool report is at:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b86d8bee756e7 


Thanks!


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bcg123* /forum/post/21725630
> 
> 
> My TVFool report is at:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b86d8bee756e7



Well, you definitely don't need an amplified antenna, because signals are very strong at your location, and the amp would likely overload. If you have no outdoor options, what you need is trial and error and a lot of patience to find an indoor reception hot spot. The most likely spot would be near a South-facing wall or window. If you still have the rabbit ear/loop antenna, that's all you need, although the RCA one is not very good. This similar looking one from RS (model 15-1874) nearly always works better than the RCA. The loop is bigger and the cable is larger gauge.


To find a reception hot spot, connect a longer piece of RG6 coax to it (no more than ~50' longer), using a barrel splice, also available at RS.


If your building has metal siding, metal roof, stucco, or foil-backed insulation, you will very likely need to put the antenna in or near a window.


If you can do outdoor or attic, the RCA ANT751 (made by Winegard) would be a very good choice at your location.


----------



## bcg123




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21725836
> 
> 
> Well, you definitely don't need an amplified antenna, because signals are very strong at your location, and the amp would likely overload. If you have no outdoor options, what you need is trial and error and a lot of patience to find an indoor reception hot spot. The most likely spot would be near a South-facing wall or window. If you still have the rabbit ear/loop antenna, that's all you need, although the RCA one is not very good. This similar looking one from RS (model 15-1874) nearly always works better than the RCA. The loop is bigger and the cable is larger gauge.



I don't have a long coax yet, but I tried this: I moved my TV into the bedroom, plugged in the current antenna, and set the current antenna on my bedroom windowsill. That window is south-facing, and I tried to tilt the antenna a little southwest, too (since the antenna farm is southwest of me). It worked better and I got 50-odd channels (mostly in the 20s and above), but, of the four I care about (2.1-NBC, 11.1-CBS, 13.1-ABC, 26-FOX), the only one I got was 26 (FOX). So, no NBC, CBS, or ABC. I'm a little surprised, but I have a few theories about why it's still so bad:


1) My antenna's bad, and I need a better one. Solution: get a better antenna. Any suggestions? Any thoughts on whether just a different model, same design is fine, or whether a different design might be helpful? (I know you recommended the Radio Shack Basic Antenna--should I start there, or is my situation bad enough that a better, non-amplified antenna is necessary?)


2) Tall office buildings are blocking the signal (I'm a few blocks north of a bunch of them). Solution: I'm not really sure. Any ideas?


I'm planning to get the coax cable anyway, and just test it, both on the balcony and in the bedroom, but given my earlier experiment, I'm not hopeful, at least not without doing something else different (maybe a better antenna?).



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21725836
> 
> 
> If you can do outdoor or attic, the RCA ANT751 (made by Winegard) would be a very good choice at your location.



Unfortunately, I don't have an attic, and I can't put anything on my roof. I do have an outdoor balcony, but it's facing away from the antenna farm. So I'm not sure this is an improvement over having it indoors.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bcg123* /forum/post/21728696
> 
> 
> ...1) My antenna's bad, and I need a better one. Solution: get a better antenna. Any suggestions? Any thoughts on whether just a different model, same design is fine, or whether a different design might be helpful? (I know you recommended the Radio Shack Basic Antenna--should I start there...



Uh, yes. That's why I posted a link to it.



> Quote:
> 2) Tall office buildings are blocking the signal (I'm a few blocks north of a bunch of them). Solution: I'm not really sure. Any ideas?



If you have _other_ buildings to the north of you, you might try aiming at them, to see if you can get a bounced signal. Your outdoor balcony would be the best place to try that. And out there, the ANT751 would be a better choice because it's more directional, plus suitable for outdoor use.


With buildings in the way, a lot of trial and error is your best option. Unfortunately, there is no magic antenna, contrary to many ads you see online. A better TV tuner often helps in your situation. LG and Sony are two that work better in difficult reception environments.


----------



## bcg123




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21728741
> 
> 
> If you have _other_ buildings to the north of you, you might try aiming at them, to see if you can get a bounced signal. Your outdoor balcony would be the best place to try that. And out there, the ANT751 would be a better choice because it's more directional, plus suitable for outdoor use.
> 
> 
> With buildings in the way, a lot of trial and error is your best option. Unfortunately, there is no magic antenna, contrary to many ads you see online. A better TV tuner often helps in your situation. LG and Sony are two that work better in difficult reception environments.



Well, I will start with the better antenna then, and I'll see if that helps, and then I'll see if I can get a bounced signal. Unfortunately, my TV tuner is in the TV, which is brand-new (not a separate box), but I'll see about changing that if nothing else works. Thanks for your help!


----------



## ctdish

CBS, ABC and PBS are all on VHF channels so an indoor antenna that includes rabbitears will work best for those channels. Getting the long coax is also likely to be needed to find a good indoor spot. I would not exclude the putting the antenna outside on the balcony. A bounced or refracted signal might be stronger there because it does not have to pass through the attenuation in the wall.

John


----------



## arxaw

bcg123,

Your dipole rods (for VHF channels PBS, ABC, & CBS) should be extended in a "V" shape and no longer than about half length, to best tune them to the frequencies your VHF channels (PBS, ABC, & CBS) are on. All your other channels are UHF and received by the "loop" on your indoor antenna.


----------



## DTVintermods




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AcuraCL* /forum/post/3565133
> 
> 
> I think I know the answer but I'll just put the question out there ....
> 
> 
> what is the best solution to a bad multipath problem?



Space diversity, polarization diversity and angular diversity. One or all of the above. In space diversity the antennas should be spaced about 1/2 wavelength apart. For space diversity, add vertical polarization (or horizontal polarization turned 90 deg). Use lossless (reactive) combiner with the shortest and equal length feedlines to the two antennas. Then rotate/change height for maximum attenuation of the strongest echo


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DTVintermods* /forum/post/21737587
> 
> 
> Space diversity, polarization diversity and angular diversity. One or all of the above. In space diversity the antennas should be spaced about 1/2 wavelength apart. For space diversity, add vertical polarization (or horizontal polarization turned 90 deg). Use lossless (reactive) combiner with the shortest and equal length feedlines to the two antennas. Then rotate/change height for maximum attenuation of the strongest echo



Just curious..... Why are you responding now to a post made almost 8 years ago?


Chuck


----------



## bcg123

I really appreciate all the feedback and advice I've received. I am happy to report that it's paid off--I decided to test one thing at a time, beginning with a long coax cable so I could put my antenna in the window facing the antenna farm. To my surprise (given my test run the day before), I am now getting all five channels I wanted (plus 58 others, if I ever get bored). Success! Thanks to everyone who helped, and now if I ever move into a place with even more difficult-to-get reception than here I have lots of ideas about what to do!


----------



## arxaw

bcg123,

With your strong signals on your TVFool report, I figured that with trial and error, you could eventually find a good spot for your antenna. Indoors, it's all about location and patience. Which antenna did you use?


----------



## holl_ands

*OAM, "Orbital Angular Momentum"* is the formal physics name for a basic E&M Theory

property for the OTHER component of Angular Momentum carried by light. OAM permits

transmitting MULTIPLE (2, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc) signals on the same frequency at the same time.


The primary component is *"Spin Angular Momentum"*, better known as Linear or

Circular *Polarization*. By transmitting OAM on BOTH Horizontal & Vertical Polarization

(or Right Hand & Left Hand Circular Polarization), the number of simultaneous

transmissions can be *DOUBLED* even more....*or TRIPLED using a Tripole Antenna*:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...9316a0_ft.html 

Note this article only addressed Linear Polarization, i.e. Spin Angular Momentum (SAM).


The ultimate solution to spectrum shortage??? Perhaps for point-to-point links,

but I doubt it will work for broadcast in it's current form....unless there is yet

another leap forward....


=======================================================

"The FCC Broadcast and Spectrum" thread (10Oct2011) seems to be *ONLY* mention of
*"Twisting Radio Waves" aka "Radio Vorticity aka OAM"* on this forum:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=21062403 
http://discovermagazine.com/2011/oct...less-bandwidth 


On 1 May 2012 (just a few days ago), a public demonstration was conducted on

a point-to-point link across the lagoon in Venice, demonstrating:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17221490 


More on this demo, including various references explaining OAM:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show....php?p=1393415 


Note that a minimalist receive antenna is described as an array of 3 or 4 antennas,

each capable of sensing the 3D nature of the E&M field, such as a *Tripole* or a
*Cubical* Antenna. Since each Tripole would require THREE Receivers, the total

number of receivers would be either 9 or 12. For the Cubical Antenna, there

are twice as many sensor locations and hence a minimum of 18 or 24 Receivers.


PS: An orthogonal *Triple Loop* antenna could also be used:
http://www2.rohde-schwarz.com/file_2...020_dat_en.pdf 
http://www.autex.spb.ru/download/wav...ensor/CH47.PDF 
http://dspace.dsto.defence.gov.au/ds...-2321%20PR.pdf 


Although my D-Link Wi-Fi Router has THREE antennas...and hence three receivers,

building an OAM receive/antenna system would be fairly expensive....plus what

appears to be direct RF (or IF?) Sampling (with ZERO phase error) feeding a

very high speed signal processor.


It is important to observe that the Venice Experiment used an *Interferometer*

with a *SINGLE Receiver*....and very careful alignment of a pair of Yagi Antennas....


----------



## Dave Loudin

I would have to think that multipath and edge-diffraction would do OAM in, thereby severely limiting this technique for broadcasting.


----------



## 300ohm

Plus it would require a separate antenna for each channel on the same frequency.



> Quote:
> On 1 May 2012 (just a few days ago)



Heh, its not going to feel like May until Thursday around here.


----------



## MaxFly

I have an interesting problem with multipath and am hoping that someone will be able to help. I live 18 miles southwest of my desired TV transmitters. I live in a valley and a wooded hill is between my house and the transmitters-close to my house. I have an old (probably >50 years old) butterfly UHF antenna extended above my 48ft tower. (Pictured here: http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/l...N/P3062435.jpg ) It has a preamp that is also extremely old. The indoor part says Galaxy III series. I think the outdoor part is older.


My biggest problem is that there is a train track that runs from southeast to southwest of my house about 1/4 mile away. When trains go by, my picture on several channels pixellates and stops. Audio completely cuts out for 30 seconds to a minute. It naturally depends on how long and fast the train is. The channel signal strength according to my Samsung HDTV or my OTA DishDTVPal DVR is in the mid to upper 80%s for my worst channels. My 95%+ channels don't cut out much. I theorize that the signal is bouncing off the moving train cars into the back of my antenna. This is worse in Winter when there are no leaves on the trees to block the bounced signal. The funny thing is, the area where the train begins to interfere is directly behind the antenna, but the faces of the cars are at an oblique angle. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Does anyone have advice for me? I installed a rotator but I can't find a position that fixes it. My thinking is that I might need to get a new antenna that is more directional and/or rejects signal better from behind. I don't have any specs. on my old antenna to compare to new ones. What should I be looking for in beam width or front-to-back ratio. Or any other advice would be appreciated.


Thanks!


----------



## Ben98gs

Just purchased a new house and was hoping to mount an antenna (or two) in the attic. I am thinking that I probably will need a UHF and VHF-Hi, but do not know what might be best.


I have attached the TVFool. We will only have 2 TV's hooked up, but might be adding a third in the near future if that matters.


What are your recommendations?


Thanks in advance.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

MaxFly,


Looks like a bidirectional G-V variant from years past. It doesn't have any front to back ratio.


In order to know what stations are being affected, we need to know what's around you. Please post a TVFool report and let us know which particular stations are being most affected.


You might be encountering either electrical interference (diesel locomotives use electrical drive motors) or dynamic multi-path.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ben98gs* /forum/post/21744980
> 
> 
> Just purchased a new house and was hoping to mount an antenna (or two) in the attic. I am thinking that I probably will need a UHF and VHF-Hi, but do not know what might be best.
> 
> 
> I have attached the TVFool. We will only have 2 TV's hooked up, but might be adding a third in the near future if that matters.
> 
> 
> What are your recommendations?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance.



You do need a VHF-HI + UHF antenna. An RCA ANT751 (made by winegard) should get at least all your major channels of interest in green on your TVFool. That's assuming you don't have foil radiant barrier roof decking or foil backed insulation in the attic.


If coax runs are long, you _may_ need a distribution amp, but don't add one unless you're experiencing dropouts.


----------



## DTVintermods

*Calaveras*

It was my first time here and I didn't realize that I was on the wrong page...


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/21744781
> 
> 
> Plus it would require a separate antenna for each channel on the same frequency.



For an OAM Multi-Antenna Receive Array, I'm not sure that would be true.


If the modes are truly "orthogonal", as is claimed, then the Receiver IF

outputs could be processed digitally with the requisite phase shifts and

amplitude weightings to form each of the say l=4 configurations. This

process would need to be done in PARALLEL, using the SAME IF digital

samples (hey, that's what super-fast signal processors are for). And by

reciprocity, the same process could be performed in REVERSE for an

OAM Transmit Array. [I'll keep reading to see if this a viable alternative....]


However, since the Helicoidal Parabola used a PHYSICAL structure to generate

the increasing phase offsets around the circumference, there would need

to be separate Transmit antennas for each of the eigenvalues, and DOUBLE

that if H/V or RHCP/LHCP Polarization for an additional DOUBLING of capacity.


================================================

BTW: If used for Broadcast coverage, a set of (say) EIGHT OAM Transmit

Antenna Arrays (probably not FOUR, depending on beamwidth) would need

to encircle the Broadcast tower, resulting in EIGHT sweet-spots and EIGHT

self-interference zones as the LEFT side of the pattern overlaps the RIGHT

side of the adjacent pattern.


Suppose antenna eigenvalue patterns ALTERNATE, so l = positive integers

alternate with l = negative integers for the same eigenvalues. In the case of

Helicoidal Parabolic Antennas, the phase step at the Gap would alternate

between positive and negative X-Axis offsets, so that in the self-interference

regions, the receive array would see an increasing (or decreasing) phase

shift from BOTH antennas.


If [and that's a very BIG IF] it is possible to construct the arrays so that

these L/R patterns result in the SAME E&M Field orientations in the

self-interference zones, i.e. are mirror images of each other, then the

self-interference MIGHT not be all that bad [Thesis project anyone????].....


----------



## MaxFly




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/21745718
> 
> 
> MaxFly,
> 
> 
> Looks like a bidirectional G-V variant from years past. It doesn't have any front to back ratio.
> 
> 
> In order to know what stations are being affected, we need to know what's around you. Please post a TVFool report and let us know which particular stations are being most affected.
> 
> 
> You might be encountering either electrical interference (diesel locomotives use electrical drive motors) or dynamic multi-path.



Thanks,

Here is my tvfool report:
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/l...foolreport.png 

Just to refresh memories, my issue is that I lose TV signal whenever a train runs past my property. The track is basically runs basically ENE to WSW and it is south of my property. It is NOT between the transmitters and my house. My TV stations I am interested in all are in the same direction: NorthEast. We watch the top 5 stations on the list. The worst one affected is ABC, then PBS. NBC is sometimes affected, but CBS doesn't cut out at all. I am shooting over a wooded hill from a valley to the Fort Wayne stations.


Here is my old antenna: http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/l...N/P3062435.jpg 

Again, I wonder if I need to get a new antenna that is more directional and/or rejects signal better from behind. What should I be looking for in beam width or front-to-back ratio.

Thanks!


----------



## Ben98gs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21745883
> 
> 
> You do need a VHF-HI + UHF antenna. An RCA ANT751 (made by winegard) should get at least all your major channels of interest in green on your TVFool. That's assuming you don't have foil radiant barrier roof decking or foil backed insulation in the attic.
> 
> 
> If coax runs are long, you _may_ need a distribution amp, but don't add one unless you're experiencing dropouts.



Will that be fine for an attic mount (mentions outdoor). I do not know if I have a foil radiant barrier or insulation, might try and check. If I do have that, is there another choice for attic mount or is my only option an outside mount?


It appears that the antenna you posted gets both the VHF and UHF in one, correct? I believe my last setup used a CM 4221 and Antennas Direct Y5-7-13 at my previous house (but it was a 2 story vinyl siding house, while this is a single story brick house with many energy efficient items so possibly has radiant foil???).


I dont mind doing 2 separate antenns or a single that does the same job, I just know currently I really only get WTTV (4.1), WRTV (6.1), and WXIN (59.1) that have anything worth watching and want to be sure to get WISH (8.1), WTHR (13.1), and WFYI (20.1).


----------



## arxaw

MaxFly,

You may be getting bounced signals from the train as it goes behind the house. I would try a directional antenna with better f/b ratio. Since your channels of interest are all UHF, a 91XG is very directional and might help. Precise aiming is often critical with a directional antenna. Fortunately, you have a rotor to fine tune your aim. Your best aim is likely magnetic compass direction 47° NE.


You could also try an inline attenuator to reduce your signal.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ben98gs* /forum/post/21748151
> 
> 
> Will that be fine for an attic mount (mentions outdoor). I do not know if I have a foil radiant barrier or insulation, might try and check. If I do have that, is there another choice for attic mount or is my only option an outside mount?...



New construction homes often have the foil radiant barrier on the roof decking underside (facing downward into the attic), to block 90% of the sun's radiant heat from the attic. It also effectively blocks radio frequency waves. Same for foil backed wallboard insulation and stucco-on-screen exteriors. If you have these, an attic is an unlikely place for reliable reception, as any signals that manage to get in there are bouncing around like crazy.


The ANT751 is small and very well built. It is designed for outdoor installation and is tuned for VHF-HI and UHF bands.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I have an old (probably >50 years old) butterfly UHF antenna extended above my 48ft tower.



Not quite that old. Its a double bay Hoverman variant sold by Radio Shack (and I think others) from the 70's to the early 90's.

Page 9 of the 1972 Radio Shack catalog has it : http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/catalogs/1972-b/ 


While it has a gain of about 14.5 dbi on some channels, its the worst design variant of the Hoverman type antennas, as the gain curve severly dips around channel 30 and then recovering.

Much better optimized single bay GH designs are here : http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/gh_n3_uV.html 


You could try putting some mesh on the reflector rods to see if that will help your multipath problems when trains go by.


----------



## Ben98gs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21748211
> 
> 
> New construction homes often have the foil radiant barrier on the roof decking underside (facing downward into the attic), to block 90% of the sun's radiant heat from the attic. It also effectively blocks radio frequency waves. Same for foil backed wallboard insulation and stucco-on-screen exteriors. If you have these, an attic is an unlikely place for reliable reception, as any signals that manage to get in there are bouncing around like crazy.
> 
> 
> The ANT751 is small and very well built. It is designed for outdoor installation and is tuned for VHF-HI and UHF bands.



I was looking at other houses on the street and see satellite dishes mounted to the roof and my high speed internet (wireless) antenna is mounted outside, so a small outdoor antenna should not be an issue.


----------



## arxaw

If you have an HOA and are concerned about rules, they cannot legally prevent you from putting up an antenna for OTA TV reception. They can't even require a permit. See:
http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-r...evices-rule#QA 


The ANT751 is much less obtrusive than a satellite dish. You can also spray paint it to blend in with background, when viewed from the street.


----------



## Konrad2

Since you have the source of the problem identified, you can

work to minimise reception from that direction.


Step one, get a highly directional antenna with a very good

front to back ratio.


The 91XG is one of the best. Specs:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_f...y/91XG-TDS.pdf 


Step two, experiment with aim, both horizontal and tilt.


If you still have problems, step three consider improving the reflector,


or shielding the antenna from the rear.
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/%7Ewn17/ 


or try the "two antenna trick" and aim a null at the train.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html#TAT 


Be sure to consider the wind load, Indiana gets a bit windy this time of year.


>> This is worse in Winter when there are no leaves on the trees to block

>> the bounced signal.


Plant some evergreens? Locate the antenna north-east of a house/barn/silo/...?


>> What should I be looking for in beam width or front-to-back ratio.


Your five stations are all within 5 degrees, so go for the smallest

beam width you can find. Given the location of the train, go for the

highest front-to-back ratio you can find. In your case, front-to-back

ratio is probably more important than beam width.


> You could also try an inline attenuator to reduce your signal.


An attenuator is useful if you get overload, and it reduces

reflections in the coax, but it isn't going to help with external

multipath.


----------



## MaxFly

_


arxaw said:



MaxFly,

You may be getting bounced signals from the train as it goes behind the house. I would try a directional antenna with better f/b ratio. Since your channels of interest are all UHF, a 91XG is very directional and might help. Precise aiming is often critical with a directional antenna. Fortunately, you have a rotor to fine tune your aim. Your best aim is likely magnetic compass direction 47° NE.

ProjectSHO89

Looks like a bidirectional G-V variant from years past. It doesn't have any front to back ratio.


You might be encountering either electrical interference (diesel locomotives use electrical drive motors) or dynamic multi-path.


300ohm:

Not quite that old. Its a double bay Hoverman variant sold by Radio Shack (and I think others) from the 70's to the early 90's.

Page 9 of the 1972 Radio Shack catalog has it : http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/catalogs/1972-b/ 


While it has a gain of about 14.5 dbi on some channels, its the worst design variant of the Hoverman type antennas, as the gain curve severly dips around channel 30 and then recovering.

Much better optimized single bay GH designs are here : http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/gh_n3_uV.html 


You could try putting some mesh on the reflector rods to see if that will help your multipath problems when trains go by.

Click to expand...

_


arxaw said:


> *Thanks to you guys for your thoughts. That 91XG has some impressive specs with regard to beam width and front-to-back ratio. I was toying with finding a hiVHS/UHS antenna so that I could swing it south to get channel 13 in Indianapolis. None of those units that I have seen has anywhere close to the same f-to-b ration as 91XG (or do you know of any?). I probably wouldn't really do that often anyway.
> 
> 
> I am running about 80 feet of RG59 to a 4 way splitter then a few more feet to my DVR and TV. (Plus 15 more feet to another room.) Do you have any advise about preamps in my application? I have a Galaxy III series preamp. The outdoor portion looks pretty gnarly. Some of the terminals are badly corroded. I wonder if I should replace it while I'm at it. I have to hire the climber and I'd like to do it right the first or second time...
> 
> Thanks a lot!*


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I was toying with finding a hiVHS/UHS antenna so that I could swing it south to get channel 13 in Indianapolis.



I would probably forget about that being its -4.3 NM, 2 edge. You probably wont get it with any antenna CONSISTANTLY unless TVFool is drastically wrong.



> Quote:
> I am running about 80 feet of RG59 to a 4 way splitter then a few more feet to my DVR and TV. (Plus 15 more feet to another room.) Do you have any advise about preamps in my application? I have a Galaxy III series preamp. The outdoor portion looks pretty gnarly. Some of the terminals are badly corroded. I wonder if I should replace it while I'm at it. I have to hire the climber and I'd like to do it right the first or second time...



Yep, that cable is pining for the fiords. http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~ebarnes/py...ead-parrot.htm 


Replace it with new RG-6. Unless youre running very close to power lines, you don't need the pricey RG-6 Quad sheild.


As far as the preamp goes, they are pretty simple one transistor devices with no electrolytic caps. As such, in a properly designed circuit, it could last for another 50 years. However, it probably has more noise than more modern preamps from Channel Master or Winegard. Avoid preamps from the Rat Shack.


----------



## Larry Kenney

A neighbor asked me about getting an antenna for OTA. He's got a Dish Network 722 and wants to record using the OTA input. The problem is, he wants to be able to record stations that are 3/4 mile away to the west on Sutro Tower, 5 miles away to the south on Mt. San Bruno, 35 miles away to the southeast in the South Bay and a station that's 45 miles to the north and not have to worry about where the antenna is pointing.


I didn't have a good answer. I told him that with a fixed antenna pointed to the south he would get most of the stations, but probably not all of them. The ones 3/4 mile away would be strong enough to come in off the side and the ones 5 miles away to the south would be good and strong, but the stations 35 and 45 miles away would maybe come in, maybe not.


I set my 10-7-13 - 4228 combo pointed south and we took a look at what we actually received. What I told him was pretty close to being right. All Sutro and Mt. San Bruno stations were solid, although one of the Sutro stations was only at 70%. Three out of the five from the southeast were pretty strong. The other two and the station to the north that's 45 miles out were "No Signal".


I was wondering... do any of you know if there is an omni-directional antenna that will receive stations up to 45 miles away that could be used for instances like this? Multipath, I guess, could be a big problem with such an antenna but is there one that's available to try?


Thanks for your input.


Larry

San Francisco


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Larry,


Don't you have a ClearStream 5? That would be my suggestion to try.


Multi-path will most likely be the limiting factor but the C5 is moderately omni-like on UHF.


PS89


----------



## retiredengineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21749459
> 
> 
> If you have an HOA and are concerned about rules, they cannot legally prevent you from putting up an antenna for OTA TV reception. They can't even require a permit. See:
> http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-r...evices-rule#QA



My HOA and, I believe most others, define a roof as a common area so, yes, they can legally keep you off the roof.


----------



## Konrad2

> I was toying with finding a hiVHS/UHS antenna so that I could swing

> it south to get channel 13 in Indianapolis. None of those units that

> I have seen has anywhere close to the same f-to-b ration as 91XG

> (or do you know of any?). I probably wouldn't really do that often anyway.


If you want to try for 13, I'd add a Weingard YA-1713 or Antennacraft Y10-7-13

to the 91XG. I have the YA-1713, it does a great job. Seperate antennas

allow me to attenuate VHF-HI to avoid overload without attenuating UHF.

Also makes it easy to filter out the interference from non-TV frequencies.

And as you have found, seperates perform better than combos. You might be

able to find a single channel antenna for 13, it should perform even better.

Be sure to filter out frequencies below VHF-HI, especially FM. I had

bad luck with cheap FM traps. Now that I no longer need VHF-LO, I'm

using a HLSJ diplexor with the low port terminated as a high pass filter.

(And the same trick with UVSJ for UHF.)


> I am running about 80 feet of RG59


RG6 quad shield isn't that expensive.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/21755231
> 
> 
> A neighbor asked me about getting an antenna for OTA. He's got a Dish Network 722 and wants to record using the OTA input. The problem is, he wants to be able to record stations that are 3/4 mile away to the west on Sutro Tower, 5 miles away to the south on Mt. San Bruno, 35 miles away to the southeast in the South Bay and a station that's 45 miles to the north and not have to worry about where the antenna is pointing.
> 
> 
> I didn't have a good answer. I told him that with a fixed antenna pointed to the south he would get most of the stations, but probably not all of them. The ones 3/4 mile away would be strong enough to come in off the side and the ones 5 miles away to the south would be good and strong, but the stations 35 and 45 miles away would maybe come in, maybe not.
> 
> 
> I set my 10-7-13 - 4228 combo pointed south and we took a look at what we actually received. What I told him was pretty close to being right. All Sutro and Mt. San Bruno stations were solid, although one of the Sutro stations was only at 70%. Three out of the five from the southeast were pretty strong. The other two and the station to the north that's 45 miles out were "No Signal".
> 
> 
> I was wondering... do any of you know if there is an omni-directional antenna that will receive stations up to 45 miles away that could be used for instances like this? Multipath, I guess, could be a big problem with such an antenna but is there one that's available to try?
> 
> 
> Thanks for your input.
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> San Francisco



I catch the devil for this, but probably only by those who haven't tried it. I've set this thing up in 4 places, and had very good results, the weakest performance being in a very low spot. What it is , is, a monopole.

Given a mast in place, a coax can be brought up through it, up to the open top. Remove the outer insulation down about 5 inches, and peel the outer conductor down , leaving the inner conductor covered. The outer foil/mesh will be attached, electrically, to the mast with foil and duct tape, leaving the inner conductor standing straight up, above the mast, about 4 inches worth. That's it.

It has the virtue of not needing a balun, or direction. I've gotten good, stable reception from over 50 miles. However, it is not as useful for VHF, or very weak signals, but it will work. And, its cheep. Even if it does not prove entirely satisfactory, it is well worth trying. Using such a thing, I never worried with signal fluctualtions. Essentially, I had the signal, or did not have it. The signal may, in fact, not have been terribly strong, but it was stable. Two of these are still being used, and seem to be doing fine. I'm not using one now, as I've got two very difficult stations I use a 4 bay to recieve. But, a couple of times, I've had the 4 bay down, and put the monopole back up, and I am good, except for the two difficult stations. One is a VHF at about 45 miles, and the other is a UHF coming over a direction that I have to aim for, about 55 miles away. With the monopole, I'm fine with 3 stations 50 miles away, and I have no transmitters I recieve closer than 30 miles away. .


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/21755231
> 
> 
> A neighbor asked me about getting an antenna for OTA. He's got a Dish Network 722 and wants to record using the OTA input. The problem is, he wants to be able to record stations that are 3/4 mile away to the west on Sutro Tower, 5 miles away to the south on Mt. San Bruno, 35 miles away to the southeast in the South Bay and a station that's 45 miles to the north and not have to worry about where the antenna is pointing.
> 
> 
> I didn't have a good answer. I told him that with a fixed antenna pointed to the south he would get most of the stations, but probably not all of them. The ones 3/4 mile away would be strong enough to come in off the side and the ones 5 miles away to the south would be good and strong, but the stations 35 and 45 miles away would maybe come in, maybe not.
> 
> 
> I set my 10-7-13 - 4228 combo pointed south and we took a look at what we actually received. What I told him was pretty close to being right. All Sutro and Mt. San Bruno stations were solid, although one of the Sutro stations was only at 70%. Three out of the five from the southeast were pretty strong. The other two and the station to the north that's 45 miles out were "No Signal".
> 
> 
> I was wondering... do any of you know if there is an omni-directional antenna that will receive stations up to 45 miles away that could be used for instances like this? Multipath, I guess, could be a big problem with such an antenna but is there one that's available to try?
> 
> 
> Thanks for your input.
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> San Francisco



I entered your neighbors approx. location into TVFool...it's near corner

of Douglas St and 19th St in Eureka Valley, CA (give or take a few tenths):
http://www.tvfool.com/modeling/tmp/0.../Radar-All.png 


At that location, signals to North just miss nearby Buena Vista Peak

and pass over the Presidio high lands. The signal SE passes right over

the hills on Hunter's Point. Otherwise, local terrain isn't a problem.

*With an OMNI antenna,* extremely high signals from Sutro Towers

will generate Adjacent/Next Adjacent/Next-Next Adjacent/Etc

Interference plus Intermod Products, so you shouldn't expect

to receive signals anywhere close to "normal" sensitivity levels,

so fergit about anything below about NM=10-15 (give or take).


And you should use a Variable RF Attenuator to reduce signal

levels so you can optimize the remaining dynamic range.

[Inserting 10 dB of attenuation, reduces Intermods by 30 dB.]


Unfortunately, input attenuation doesn't help the Adjacent (etc)

Channel problem. In order to receive a weaker adjacent channel,

strong channels need to be *no more than 33 dB* stronger

than the desired, which is violated by Ch7/8 and Ch34/35, etc.

[In TVFool, Adjacent Channel problems are tagged with an "a".]


Next Adjacent (N+/- 2), Next-Next Adjacent (N+/- 3), etc, etc

need to have *no more than 40-50 dB* difference.

These are per CECB Converter Box Specs (mandatory) and

ATSC A/74 Receiver Guidelines, non-mandatory, so YMMV....

[These are NOT tagged in TVFool.]


So Ch7 probably prevents reception of Ch9/10 (KVIE/KXTV from 55/57-deg).

And Ch29 probably prevents reception of Ch27 (KTSF from 177-deg).

And Ch38 probably prevents reception of Ch36 (KICU from 120-deg).

And Ch39 probably prevents reception of Ch41 (KKPX from 177-deg).

And Ch45 probably prevents reception of Ch49/50/51 (From 120-deg).


That eliminates all of the stations at about 62-mi range NE towards 56/57-deg

(not 45-mi)....which you don't need anyway since they're all duplicates.


Four stations at about 36-mi range SE towards 120/120-deg are in the

iffy reception zone wrt signal levels and Adjacent/Next Adjacent Channel

Interference probably blocks reception. Ch14 and Ch34 are Spanish

language stations that might not be of interest to your neighbor.

He also may or may not be interested in KICU (Ch36) and KQEH

(PBS Ch50, aka KQED-Plus).


That only leaves nearby Sutro Towers, K14MW-D (Ch3 from 325-deg)

which is fairly strong and three stations from San Bruno Towers (177-deg).


Note that in addition to Lo-VHF Ch3, there are three Hi-VHF stations:

extremely strong Ch7 from Sutro Towers and Ch8/12 from San Bruno Towers.

*So an OMNI antenna should get the two local Towers plus probably Ch3.*


You should NOT use any amplifiers.....except possibly a low Gain Distro Amp,

IF NECESSARY...which is preceded by that Variable RF Attenuator.


===========================================

A multiple antenna system might be able to add some of the above

"blocked" channels...but it would help to know which ones are a priority.


----------



## holl_ands

Although a Vertical Whip (Monopole) is truly Omni-directional, the SWR

and Gain varies quite a bit from Ch2-51:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/omni/monopole 


I did a study of numerous Omni and Quasi-Omni antennas for FM Band, but

none of them provide adequate Gain & SWR for more than a single Band,

so you would need one each for Hi-VHF and UHF....and possibly also Lo-VHF:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/omni 


Commercial, Non-Amplified OMNI Antennas are available that cover Ch2-69:
http://www.winegarddirect.com/pdf/spec_METROSTAR.pdf 
http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload/2451916.pdf 


HOWEVER, I would recommend using a BIDIRECTIONAL Antenna

which has a UHF NULL along the axis of the antenna that can be

aligned towards Sutro Towers (251-deg), so VHF Gain is towards

Ch3 (251+90=341-deg) and VHF/UHF BETWEEN San Bruno and

Fremont (251-90=161-deg)...tweak for "best" San Bruno:
http://www.winegarddirect.com/pdf/spec_SENSAR.pdf 
http://www.winegard.com/wingman/index.php [Sensar PLUS Wingman]
http://www.channelmasterstore.com/Di..._p/cm-3010.htm 


This would also be a good starting point if you want to add a

second (or third) antenna via a JoinTenna or other type of

Combiner for (say) the 177-deg direction.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *retiredengineer* /forum/post/21756292
> 
> 
> My HOA and, I believe most others, define a roof as a common area so, yes, they can legally keep you off the roof.



The OP mentioned buying a new house, not a condo.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/21757257
> 
> 
> That only leaves nearby Sutro Towers, K14MW-D (Ch3 from 325-deg)
> 
> which is fairly strong and three stations from San Bruno Towers (177-deg).
> 
> 
> Note that in addition to Lo-VHF Ch3, there are three Hi-VHF stations:
> 
> extremely strong Ch7 from Sutro Towers and Ch8/12 from San Bruno Towers.



K14MW is not on the air on 3 and it's looking doubtful if it ever will be. Same goes for KTVJ-LP on 4.


There are 4 stations on Mt. San Bruno, KNTV on 12, KTSF on 27, KMMC-LD on 40 and KKPX on 41.


Channel 8 is not on Mt. San Bruno. KDTS-LD 8 is on Mt. Diablo but almost no one can receive it. KSBW 8 is on Fremont Peak and is one of the most widely received stations in northern/central California.


I wouldn't recommend an omni to anyone in the Bay Area let alone San Francisco. There's just too many reflection possibilities with all the buildings in the city and all the hills surrounding the bay. As always, there's probably a few cases where one will work but overall it's got to be a multipath nightmare.


Chuck


----------



## Larry Kenney

Difuse... I'll have to test your "no antenna monopole" sometime. I don't have any extra coax at the moment, but it sounds like a real interesting experiment.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89* /forum/post/21755376
> 
> 
> Larry,
> 
> Don't you have a ClearStream 5? That would be my suggestion to try.
> 
> Multi-path will most likely be the limiting factor but the C5 is moderately omni-like on UHF.
> 
> 
> PS89



Yes, I have a C5. It's an interesting antenna. Supposedly a VHF antenna, it works quite well for UHF, too.


I gave it the omni-directional test. It's locked in pointing south toward Mt. San Bruno at 178 degrees. (See my TVFool report for a list of available channels and directions:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b86a3ac23a165 )


It receives all of the channels from Sutro Tower at 267º and all of the full power stations from Mt. San Bruno. The two low power stations on Mt. San Bruno, 28 and 40, are below the cliff edge. Two stations from the South Bay, at 120º and 35 miles away, channels 14 and 36, were received; channels 48 and 54 and the two low power stations were not. It did not receive any of the stations to the north-northwest off the back of the antenna or the stations to the east at 72-73º.


So the C5 is a possible choice, but it's definitely not omni-directional.


See my next post regarding adjacent channel reception in response to Holl_lands posts.


Larry

SF


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/21757257
> 
> 
> I entered your neighbors approx. location into TVFool...it's near corner of Douglas St and 19th St in Eureka Valley, CA (give or take a few tenths).



You were close, just two blocks away from the actual location. The neighbor that wants to put up the antenna is right next door to me at Eureka and 21st Streets. Here's the TV Fool report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b86a3ac23a165 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/21757257
> 
> *With an OMNI antenna,* extremely high signals from Sutro Towers will generate Adjacent/Next Adjacent/Next-Next Adjacent/Etc
> 
> Interference plus Intermod Products, so you shouldn't expect
> 
> to receive signals anywhere close to "normal" sensitivity levels,
> 
> so fergit about anything below about NM=10-15 (give or take).
> 
> 
> So Ch7 probably prevents reception of Ch9/10 (KVIE/KXTV from 55/57-deg).
> 
> And Ch29 probably prevents reception of Ch27 (KTSF from 177-deg).
> 
> And Ch38 probably prevents reception of Ch36 (KICU from 120-deg).
> 
> And Ch39 probably prevents reception of Ch41 (KKPX from 177-deg).
> 
> And Ch45 probably prevents reception of Ch49/50/51 (From 120-deg).
> 
> 
> That eliminates all of the stations at about 62-mi range NE towards 56/57-deg (not 45-mi)....which you don't need anyway since they're all duplicates.
> 
> 
> Four stations at about 36-mi range SE towards 120/120-deg are in the
> 
> iffy reception zone wrt signal levels and Adjacent/Next Adjacent Channel
> 
> Interference probably blocks reception. Ch14 and Ch34 are Spanish
> 
> language stations that might not be of interest to your neighbor.
> 
> He also may or may not be interested in KICU (Ch36) and KQEH
> 
> (PBS Ch50, aka KQED-Plus).
> 
> *So an OMNI antenna should get the two local Towers plus probably Ch3.*
> 
> 
> HOWEVER, I would recommend using a BIDIRECTIONAL Antenna
> 
> which has a UHF NULL along the axis of the antenna that can be
> 
> aligned towards Sutro Tower...



Thanks very much for this, Holl_ands. As reported above, I tried the C5 that PS89 recommended, with it pointed at Mt. San Bruno, 178º. The adjacent channel problem didn't affect channels 27, 36, 41 or 51, but I didn't receive 28, 40, 49 or 50, so it could be the problem there.


I'll recommend to my neighbor either the C5 or one of the bi-directional antennas you suggested.


As Calaveras reported, neither of the low-VHF channels have come on the air yet, even though TVFool has listed channel 3 for several months.


Turning to adjacent channel reception results when using my 10-7-13/4228 combo, I'm able to receive channels 8, 9 and 10 from 73 and 55/57 degrees with no problem, even with channel 7 so close. Looking at the TV Fool report, I receive ALL of the channels down to KMAX 21 in the pink section at 1.1 NM and 89.7 dBm power, and many of them are adjacent to stations on Sutro.


Surprisingly, most of the Sutro stations are nulled out or have very low signal levels when my antennas are pointed in the 55/57º direction, so that might be allowing me to get the ones from Walnut Grove so well. I also get a good signal (about 20 dB SNR) from KQCA at -7.0 NM, and KEMO 32 at -10.4 NM booms in here at 26 dB from Mt. St. Helena at 351º.


I used to get KCRA very well until KGO's translator came on the air on channel 35. Now I get it only when conditions are exceptional. KGO 35 desenses KCRA 35 really bad.


KTVU's translator on 48 isn't on the air yet, but I still can't receive KSPX. I also cannot receive 40 since we have a local low power on 40.


I feel my antennas, despite the very high powered locals, are doing a really good job for me.


Larry

SF


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/21761606
> 
> 
> KTVU's translator on 48 isn't on the air yet, but I still can't receive KSPX. I also cannot receive 40 since we have a local low power on 40.



The KSPX antenna is side mounted on the tower with the tower between you and the antenna plus the ERP is way down off the back. I would be surprised if you ever received KSPX.



> Quote:
> I feel my antennas, despite the very high powered locals, are doing a really good job for me.



Considering the incredible signal levels you have to deal with from Sutro it's amazing you receive as many out of the area stations as you do.


I forgot about KFTL on 28. So there's 6 stations on San Bruno.


Chuck


----------



## Ben98gs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21749459
> 
> 
> If you have an HOA and are concerned about rules, they cannot legally prevent you from putting up an antenna for OTA TV reception. They can't even require a permit. See:
> http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-r...evices-rule#QA
> 
> 
> The ANT751 is much less obtrusive than a satellite dish. You can also spray paint it to blend in with background, when viewed from the street.




Have it ordered and on it's way...


Sorry if this is a stupid question, but most of my stations are at 10* and 26*, should I point the antenna at say 18* to get both sets without any real worries?


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ben98gs* /forum/post/21766623
> 
> 
> Have it ordered and on it's way...
> 
> 
> Sorry if this is a stupid question, but most of my stations are at 10* and 26*, should I point the antenna at say 18* to get both sets without any real worries?



Not a stupid question at all.

That would be a good starting point, then run a full channel scan, or digital channel add. If any of the "yellow" channels on your TVFool report are weak (use your TV's signal strength display, if it has one), gradually tweak the aim a few degrees closer in aim to those.


If you have a compass for aiming, use your TVFool's _magnetic_ compass numbers , not the "true" column.


I suggested the ANT751 for your "green" channels at the top of your TVFool report, but you may also receive some of the weaker ones in "yellow" as well.


----------



## Ben98gs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21759807
> 
> 
> The OP mentioned buying a new house, not a condo.



You are correct. The HOA has no authority on not letting me on my own roof. It is actually just a lane of about 20 houses off of a country road in a rural setting.


Just for the hell of it I pulled up the covenants and restrictions. It is more setup from the standpoint of approving the design of the houses that were to be built. Other than that, you have to get approval on fences and any utility/storage/detached garages. There is absolutely no mention of satellite dishes or antennas anywere in the document. I did not figure there would be as it is in a rural area (no wired high speed internet or cable options even available).


Should I even worry about trying to tuck the antenna under the eave a bit to keep the elements off of it, or should I just mount it to the side of the eave/roof and not worry about it?


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ben98gs* /forum/post/21766696
> 
> 
> ...Should I even worry about trying to tuck the antenna under the eave a bit to keep the elements off of it, or should I just mount it to the side of the eave/roof and not worry about it?



I would mount it at the peak of the eave, but if you can put it under an eave and out of the weather and it can still be aimed in the right direction (as long as none of the elements are touching the house), that would be better.


Note: If you have metal soffit/fascia covering, I would go ahead and mount it on the peak of the eave, as the metal might interfere with reception. The antenna is very sturdy and should hold up for many years out in the weather.


----------



## dorkustaylorkus

I'm totally new to the world of OTA tv, but would like to find out what would be involved in trying to get all the major networks. My house is under HOA rules, so I would need to attic mount or get a very small outdoor antenna. The attic space is on the west side of the house, so is on the proper side for all the stations I'm really interested in, and the house is fairly old so I don't think there's any shielding on the roof. There's also enough space in the attic to put a large antenna meant for a roof.


Here is my TVFool - all the stations I'm interested in are to the west:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b8688abe08af5


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dorkustaylorkus* /forum/post/21772512
> 
> 
> I'm totally new to the world of OTA tv, but would like to find out what would be involved in trying to get all the major networks. My house is under HOA rules, so I would need to attic mount or get a very small outdoor antenna. The attic space is on the west side of the house, so is on the proper side for all the stations I'm really interested in, and the house is fairly old so I don't think there's any shielding on the roof. There's also enough space in the attic to put a large antenna meant for a roof.
> 
> 
> Here is my TVFool - all the stations I'm interested in are to the west:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b8688abe08af5



Almost all of your major network stations are east of you - the LA stations.


I assume you own a house and we're not talking about a condo. Assuming it's a house, the HOA cannot tell you that you cannot have a roof mounted TV antenna. Those rules have been preempted by the FCC.


Your TV Fool report shows all your stations are pretty weak and 1 or 2 edge paths which make it even harder. In your situation I'd recommend this:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...tenna-(HD7698P )


with one of these:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...ifier-(AP-8700 )


and I'd put it at least 10' above the top of your roof or higher if it's necessary to clear local trees and buildings.


Chuck


----------



## oc-rdx




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21766726
> 
> 
> ...(as long as none of the elements are touching the house), that would be better.



Why is there a concern about the elements touching the house?


I have a CM 4228HD mounted on the side of my house. I drilled to screw holes into the stucco, then cut two notches into the back of the antenna so that it could fit tight, down onto the screws. This antenna picks up the distant san Diego stations. Do I need to change the way it is mounted?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oc-rdx* /forum/post/21773214
> 
> 
> Why is there a concern about the elements touching the house?
> 
> 
> Do I need to change the way it is mounted?



Not if it's working to your satisfaction. Antenna patterns are sensitive to nearby objects, especially anything with metal in it. If you need maximum performance from your antenna then anything that disturbs the pattern can degrade the performance.


Chuck


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *oc-rdx* /forum/post/21773214
> 
> 
> Why is there a concern about the elements touching the house?



Having the active elements touching a building could affect impedance and reduce signal strength.


I have a CM 4228HD mounted on the side of my house. I drilled to screw holes into the stucco, then cut two notches into the back of the antenna so that it could fit tight, down onto the screws. This antenna picks up the distant san Diego stations. Do I need to change the way it is mounted?[/quote]No. If I understand correctly, you attached the rear reflector to the house, not the active elements. The original post was in reference to a different type of antenna than yours.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by dorkustaylorkus
> 
> I'm totally new to the world of OTA tv, but would like to find out what would be involved in trying to get all the major networks. My house is under HOA rules, so I would need to attic mount or get a very small outdoor antenna. The attic space is on the west side of the house, so is on the proper side for all the stations I'm really interested in, and the house is fairly old so I don't think there's any shielding on the roof. There's also enough space in the attic to put a large antenna meant for a roof.
> 
> 
> Here is my TVFool - all the stations I'm interested in are to the west:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b8688abe08af5





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21772635
> 
> 
> Almost all of your major network stations are east of you - the LA stations.
> 
> 
> I assume you own a house and we're not talking about a condo. Assuming it's a house, the HOA cannot tell you that you cannot have a roof mounted TV antenna. Those rules have been preempted by the FCC.
> 
> 
> Your TV Fool report shows all your stations are pretty weak and 1 or 2 edge paths which make it even harder. In your situation I'd recommend this:
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...tenna-(HD7698P )
> 
> 
> with one of these:
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...ifier-(AP-8700 )
> 
> 
> and I'd put it at least 10' above the top of your roof or higher if it's necessary to clear local trees and buildings.
> 
> 
> Chuck



+1 on the antenna & preamp suggestion. Your signals are weak and you need a lot of metal in the air, outside and not in an attic aiming through walls or roofing.


HOAs cannot restrict OTA antenna installation, nor even require a permit or permission, if it's your own private home. Common areas of condos are a different story.
* http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-r...n-devices-rule *


----------



## dorkustaylorkus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21772635
> 
> 
> Almost all of your major network stations are east of you - the LA stations.
> 
> 
> I assume you own a house and we're not talking about a condo. Assuming it's a house, the HOA cannot tell you that you cannot have a roof mounted TV antenna. Those rules have been preempted by the FCC.
> 
> 
> Your TV Fool report shows all your stations are pretty weak and 1 or 2 edge paths which make it even harder. In your situation I'd recommend this:
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=HD7698P&d=Winegard-HD-7698P-High-Definition-VHF%2FUHF-HD769-Series-TV-Antenna-(HD7698P)
> 
> 
> with one of these:
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=AP8700&d=Winegard-AP8700-Chromstar-2000-Series-VHF%2FUHF-Pre-Amplifier-(AP-8700)
> 
> 
> and I'd put it at least 10' above the top of your roof or higher if it's necessary to clear local trees and buildings.
> 
> 
> Chuck





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21773495
> 
> 
> +1 on the antenna & preamp suggestion. Your signals are weak and you need a lot of metal in the air, outside and not in an attic aiming through walls or roofing.
> 
> 
> HOAs cannot restrict OTA antenna installation, nor even require a permit or permission, if it's your own private home. Common areas of condos are a different story.
> * http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-reception-devices-rule *



Oops, just realized that all the "west"s in my original post should be "east"s! My house and attic face east, and the stations I'd want to receive are east










Thanks for the responses! So I guess I can't get OTA and also be discreet about it, huh? I'm going to have to go back and take a look at my HOA rules about stuff on the roof...


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dorkustaylorkus* /forum/post/21773850
> 
> 
> Thanks for the responses! So I guess I can't get OTA and also be discreet about it, huh? I'm going to have to go back and take a look at my HOA rules about stuff on the roof...



It would be no surprise if your HOA rules said no antennas but that would be wrong about OTA TV antennas. Follow the link that arxaw gave you. Show it to the HOA if necessary.


DTV reception is really no different than analog reception was. DTV was designed so that whatever antenna it took to get a good clean analog picture, the same antenna will be required for DTV. If your analog reception was not too good, then your DTV reception may be intermittent or even nonexistent.


Click on one of the LA stations in your TV Fool report to see a terrain profile and you'll see why your signals are weak.


BTW, looking at the FCC station filings for KUBH-LP (at the top of your TVFool report), they're not converted to digital yet, still analog on 6.


Chuck


----------



## OTAhead

I need some advice... In no way am I a newbie as I have been using antennas for years, but I have a situation I have not run across before, so here goes...


In two other situations I have installed (1) CM 3671, CM 7777, and a 4way distribution amp with excellent results. (2) RS VU-190, CM 7777, and a 4way distribution amp also with excellent results.


I now need to split the signal (also 4ways) from a high gain/very directional Winegard UHF antenna (sorry, the model number escapes me) stacked on top of a probably 50 year old VHF only antenna I "robbed" from my best friend's brother's attic with both going into a CM 7777 pre-amp. All 3 of the systems are on rotors by the way. With the signal coming straight in to the Haier HDTV, I get excellent reception from(3) 1,000 KW UHF stations, (1) 350 KW UHF station, (1) 18.2 KW Hi-VHF station, and (2) low power digital stations. All signal strengths in the 90's.


When splitting the signal even once (into two feeds) the signal drops too much for dependable reception. When going into a 4way distribution amp, the signal is boosted too much tesulting in tuner overload and an almost unusable signal.


So... how do I maintain a good enough signal to depend on, yet be able to have a reliable signal to 3 other recievers???


I would appreciate any suggestions.


----------



## retiredengineer

Does your 2-way splitter pass DC voltage to the pre-amp?


----------



## leszek1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Splicer010* /forum/post/17530393
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Colm* /forum/post/17530353
> 
> 
> Splitter with 3.5dB insertion loss:
> 
> 
> 10.5dB input gives two 7 dB outputs. 3dB reduction in each output is due to splitting signal in two. .5dB is due to losses in the splitter.
> 
> 
> Same device used as combiner:
> 
> 
> Two 7dB inputs sum to 10dB. .5dB lost in the splitter. Output is 9.5dB. Net gain from using two identical inputs is 2.5dB.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL! What the hell is this?
Click to expand...


An oldie but goodie.










I wanted to resurrect this issue because it's actually very simple to understand but people keep messing it up. When you have two sine waves in phase and of equal amplitude that you "stack" together you will get a wave with twice the amplitude (voltage etc.) and given the same impedance twice the voltage means 4 times the power or a 6dB gain. Now so why you only gain a theoretical 3dB improvement? Here comes the fun part. If you stack two (sets of) elements together 1/2 the power of each (set of) element(s) will be radiated out by the other. The other half will make it to the wire. So you effectively double your receiving power by stacking 2 (sets of) elements. If you use a splitter/combiner, the same thing will apply in the end. You will gain 6dB but loose 3dB from the splitter (+ any insertion loss around 0.5-1dB) Now if the antennas are not in phase (pointed at different directions) then you will lose 3dB on each as half the power is radiated back. So in the end, 2 in phase antennas will gain you up to 3dB (usually closer to 2.5dB) of signal and 2 out of phase antennas will lose you at least 3dB (usually closer to 3.5).


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *OTAhead* /forum/post/21774280
> 
> 
> All signal strengths in the 90's.
> 
> 
> When splitting the signal even once (into two feeds) the signal drops too much for dependable reception. When going into a 4way distribution amp, the signal is boosted too much tesulting in tuner overload and an almost unusable signal.
> 
> 
> So... how do I maintain a good enough signal to depend on, yet be able to have a reliable signal to 3 other recievers???



Something doesn't make sense. I think there's some other unrecognized problem.


A 2-way splitter is 4dB loss maximum. If that much attenuation is causing the signals to drop out then the signals would have to be very weak and couldn't possibly be in the 90% + signal quality range. If they are 90% + then there's some kind of problem with the splitter.


Retirengineer has a good point. Is there still DC getting to the preamp using the splitter? Not all splitters pass DC.


If the tuner is being overloaded when a distribution amp is added, then that says the signals are very strong and can't possibly drop out with


----------



## OTAhead

Thanks for all the feedback guys.


The splitter is "behind" the power supply for the pre-amp. By that I mean that the splitter is between the power supply and the TV, not between the power supply and the outside pre-amp module mounted on the pole, so whether or not it could pass DC power is moot, correct?


And, indeed, the splitter I used came from who knows where and is who knows how old... It was just one that was handy I grabbed when I went to install it as an experiment after I had tried the distribution amp, so, it might be bad?


Assuming the splitter is bad, I will try to pick up a different one to see what happens along with a 4 way splitter, but it will be the weekend before that happens.


Let's say a two way split signal with a new splitter is OK on two devices, but falls off too much with a 4 way splitter, what might I do at that point?


----------



## Digital Rules

OTAhead, What does the TV FOOL report look like? What distribution amp are you using?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *OTAhead* /forum/post/21774931
> 
> 
> Let's say a two way split signal with a new splitter is OK on two devices, but falls off too much with a 4 way splitter, what might I do at that point?



I still think it's a nearly impossible situation to have your stations fall off the cliff with a 4 way splitter and the TV be overloaded with a distribution amp. There's something on the order of 80 dB between stations too weak to decode and so strong as to overload the TV. The loss in a 4 way splitter is around 7 dB.


I suppose it is possible to have some weak stations near the digital cliff and some extremely strong stations that are close to overloading your TV and any change in loss or gain would cause signals to disappear or overload. What you describe doesn't sound like this. Very weak stations won't have signal qualities in the 90's. Very weak stations are typically unstable and don't provide reliably reception.


Chuck


----------



## Konrad2

> When splitting the signal even once (into two feeds) the signal drops

> too much for dependable reception. When going into a 4way distribution

> amp, the signal is boosted too much tesulting in tuner overload and

> an almost unusable signal.


bad cable?

bad splitter?

unterminated port on splitter?

bad distribution amp?

other signals driving dist amp or tuner into overload?


You don't mention any VHF-LO stations, so try adding a HLSJ diplexor

as a high pass filter. Terminate the LO port. This will filter out

signals below VHF-HI, including the often troublesome FM band.


A good 2 way splitter eats 3.5 dB.

A good 4 way splitter eats 7.4 dB.

A low performance one may eat more.


How many dB of gain does the distribution amp provide?

Make & model of the dist amp?


----------



## OTAhead

This project is in a cabin on my best friend's land out a little west of Beaumont. I am going to Ralph's electronics today after work to pick up some new splitters (1-2, 1-3, and a 1-4) and I will try them out this weekend. I do have some terminators, and I will be sure to use them. I will also be able to get the specs on the distribution amp at that time also, but it is a variable gain amp, and I have used one just like it on two other installations with the only main difference in the set-ups being the other two installations were with combo antennas (a CM 3671 and a RS VU-190 ) and this one is a stacked array with a high gain UHF on top of a (as I mentioned in my earlier post) 50 year old or more VHF only antenna. As for bad cables, could be. I will make some new ones. I also don't really want to block the VHF LO out, as one of my goals is to connect the antenna to the Sangean HD radio reciever that's there (although, I have bought a dedicated FM antenna for that purpose but it is not erected yet... It's number hasn't come up yet...







). We are a good ways from any FM transmitters.


I will post NM numbers from TV Fool when I get a chance...


I will have more info this weekend.


----------



## Konrad2

> I also don't really want to block the VHF LO out, as one of my goals

> is to connect the antenna to the Sangean HD radio reciever that's there

> (although, I have bought a dedicated FM antenna for that purpose but it

> is not erected yet...


So instead of terminating the LO port, connect the LO port to the radio.

Still keeps the FM and such out of the TV tuners, and keeps most of the

TV bands out of the radio.


And, using a diplexor results in far less loss (almost none) than using

a splitter to drive the radio.


And a good diplexor costs less to purchase than a good splitter.


Triple win.


----------



## OTAhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/21782536
> 
> 
> > I also don't really want to block the VHF LO out, as one of my goals
> 
> > is to connect the antenna to the Sangean HD radio reciever that's there
> 
> > (although, I have bought a dedicated FM antenna for that purpose but it
> 
> > is not erected yet...
> 
> 
> So instead of terminating the LO port, connect the LO port to the radio.
> 
> Still keeps the FM and such out of the TV tuners, and keeps most of the
> 
> TV bands out of the radio.
> 
> 
> And, using a diplexor results in far less loss (almost none) than using
> 
> a splitter to drive the radio.
> 
> 
> And a good diplexor costs less to purchase than a good splitter.
> 
> 
> Triple win.



That's pretty cool. Didn't know there was any such animal... I got two new splitters this afternoon before I read your post. Not sure if Ralph's has them for sure, but I bet they do. I got a 1X2 and a 1X4, so I will try those out this weekend. I will get a couple of the hljs diplexors for future use. I'll put them in my "goodies box".







I am curious to see how the new splitters behave this weekend and I will post the results here...


----------



## Larry Kenney

A while back I posted asking about the best choice of antenna for picking up signals in several different directions without using a rotor ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post21755231 ). I passed on your ideas to my neighbor.


Yesterday, during a lull in our on-going rainy week, the neighbor put up two antennas that he found for sale on Craig's List... a Clearstream 2 and Clearstream 5 combination. He pointed them at 176º and is very pleased with the results. In fact, I think he's is doing quite well.


He receives all of the Sutro and Mt. San Bruno stations, including the two low power ones on Mt. San Bruno, all of the high power stations in the South Bay hills at 35 miles as well as KTNC from Mt. Diablo, 30 miles east, off the side of the antennas, and KTLN from Novato, 30 miles north, off the back of the antennas. He does not receive the two stations to the far north at 45 and 65 miles, nor any of the Walnut Grove stations at 55º and 62 miles. I'd be shocked if he did! Those two antennas together seem to be quite effective.


Larry

SF


----------



## OTAhead

OK guys... I owe you all a tip of the hat. Put the NEW 4-way splitter on the antenna lead in this evening. What a difference a good splitter (or cable) makes! I changed out both the old 2-way splitter and the cable, so I'm not sure which one was the problem, but with the new splitter in place, and the other 3 ports terminated, it made virtually NO DIFFERENCE in the signal strength on the new Haier HDTV. I'm a happy camper. The only little quirk that I noticed is that I have to aim the antenna a little more directly at the distant FOX station, but when I do, signal is still in the 90s, plus the distant low power translator drops out now, but the good news is, the main low power station that thettanslator feeds off of is still in the 90s







.


I thank all of you who took the time to respond. Looks like I am back in business! Thanks again.


----------



## OTAhead

Follow-up: I got every thing set up yesterday and have great signal to 4 recievers: Haier 32" HDTV, Zenith converter box feeding a Samsung DVD recorder/VCR combo, Channel Master DVR (which won't decode channel 12 anymore) and a 7" Haier TV by the bed. A couple of the more sensitive tuners are even able to decode KPLC (RF7) from 75.5 miles away, and the antennas are only up about 15-16 feet. So apparently, the splitter I first tried to use was a POS, or the jumper cable I was using had gone bad (who woulda thunk, huh?).


Anyway, thanks again for all the feedback and help. I am good to go. I am gonna try to take a week of vacation next week and if I can, I am gonna try to take a day and get that FM antenna up and running, and if that happens, I can reset the FM trap on the CM 7777 back to "in" on the TV antennas.


----------



## arxaw

The CM DVR has great tuners. But it has two of them, so the signal is split between them and signal strength is reduced.


----------



## OTAhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21794488
> 
> 
> The CM DVR has great tuners. But it has two of them, so the signal is split between them and signal strength is reduced.



I see what you're saying, but this started before the current project. I called a engineer at KBMT thinking they had tweaked the data stream for some reason, but he assured me that was not the case.


DVR signal meter shows signal strength in thwme 90s, and I get guide data for both channels, but it shows "no service"notification when tuning to the channel. It just will not decode the data.


I have rebooted, deleted the channels, deleted the channels and then rebooted, deleted the channels and then re-added, and tried the old unplugging trick all to the same result... signal in the 90s, no service. No problem on any other channels. That is why I startex looking into splitting the signal to begin with. I wanted to add the Samsung DVD recorder/VCR so I could record channel 12.1/12.2. So I am covered under now all the way around.


Would like to know what happened to the channel 12 data though...


----------



## Konrad2

> I called a engineer at KBMT


KBMT ? Is that a typo for KNMT ?


> Would like to know what happened to the channel 12 data though...


The first harmonic of FM stations lands in VHF-HI, so once you

get FM out of the TV tuners you might get 12. If the 7777's

FM trap isn't enough, try the HLSJ. You might have FM coming in

common mode, which no filter will get rid of. Try adding ferrite

around the coax just before the tuner.


1/4"
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=110-450 

3/8"
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=110-452 

1/2"
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=110-454 


Ideally you want a snug fit without crushing the coax.

The 3/8" size is the best fit for most coax used for antennas.

The thicker RG11 might need the 1/2"?

Norvacs used to carry similar parts (maybe they still do?).


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *OTAhead* /forum/post/21794944
> 
> 
> ... DVR signal meter shows signal strength in thwme 90s, and I get guide data for both channels, but it shows "no service"notification when tuning to the channel. It just will not decode the data...



Have you tried a double re-scan?

1. Disconnect the antenna.

2. Run autoscan or whatever it's called in the setup menu.

3. Reconnect the antenna.

4. Run autoscan again.


I had a similar problem when a local station made changes to their PSIP data. The TV tuner could still "see" the station, but it could no longer decode it. The above procedure fixed it.


----------



## OTAhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21795518
> 
> 
> Have you tried a double re-scan?
> 
> 1. Disconnect the antenna.
> 
> 2. Run autoscan or whatever it's called in the setup menu.
> 
> 3. Reconnect the antenna.
> 
> 4. Run autoscan again.
> 
> 
> I had a similar problem when a local station made changes to their PSIP data. The TV tuner could still "see" the station, but it could no longer decode it. The above procedure fixed it.



You know, a double rescan is the one thing I have not tried... I've read about them before, but didn't even think about it in this case. I'll definitely try that next weekend. Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## retiredengineer

Is your Channel Master DVR set-up to receive guide data from TVGuide On Screen (KFDM)? If so the guide data for KBMT may not be up-to-date.


----------



## OTAhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/21795489
> 
> 
> > I called a engineer at KBMT
> 
> 
> KBMT ? Is that a typo for KNMT ?
> 
> 
> > Would like to know what happened to the channel 12 data though...
> 
> 
> The first harmonic of FM stations lands in VHF-HI, so once you
> 
> get FM out of the TV tuners you might get 12. If the 7777's
> 
> FM trap isn't enough, try the HLSJ. You might have FM coming in
> 
> common mode, which no filter will get rid of. Try adding ferrite
> 
> around the coax just before the tuner.
> 
> 
> 1/4"
> http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=110-450
> 
> 3/8"
> http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=110-452
> 
> _1/2"
> http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=110-454
> 
> 
> Ideally you want a snug fit without crushing the coax.
> 
> The 3/8" size is the best fit for most coax used for antennas.
> 
> The thicker RG11 might need the 1/2"?
> 
> Norvacs used to carry similar parts (maybe they still do?).



KBMT is the call sign for channel 12 in Beaumont, Texas, my home DMA.


You see, I was recieving 12 on the DVR until just a couple of weeks ago with the antenna set-up I am still using. KBMT (RF 12) runs ABC in 720 on 12.1 and NBC downconverted to 720 on 12.2. KBMT has a LMA for two low power digital stations (KUIL-LD on channel 43 and K36ID) of which both ID as 12.3 and 12.4. On the DVR channel 12 ID'd as 12.1/12.2. K36ID ID'd as 12.3/12.4. KUIL ID'd as 70.1/70.2. All three were being recieved on the DVR. Then, a couple of weeks ago channel 12 stopped decoding after more than a year of using the DVR. Pook, one weekend it's there, the next it's not. Nothing else changed as far as I know. 12 just stopped decoding. That 's what prompted me to try splitting the signal. I was trying to get it to a Samsung DVD recorder/VCR combo and while I was at it to the Sangean and a 7" TV bythe bed. That's done now, thanks to y'all, but after all I've done, the DVR still won't decode 12 like it did before...


----------



## Pete.

Hello, I am trying to record some news and drama shows on station KIKU with my Hauppuage WinTV-HVR-1250 tuner card. The issue is KIKU can not be picked up during a channel scan.

I also have Channel Master tuner box with my homemade antenna that does get KIKU. The antenna is attached to both the CM and PC tuner.
http://i39.tinypic.com/2gtunph.jpg 

I have done signal scanning for both the PC tuner and CM on the SE and NW windows on the second story with similar TV signal strengths. Neither side SE or NW helped the PC tuner pick up KIKU during a channel scan.










In another test - I left the CM with signal strength indicator on - for KIKU. I moved around the house and even rotated the antenna in all directions - KIKU signal was solid at 100%. The station signal is very strong.


Channel Master picked up channels with signal strength info from SE:

2 KHON comes on sometimes very weak mostly no signal

4 KITV ABC 100%

5 KGMB CBS 100%

9 KFVE 100%

11 KHET PBS 100%

13 KHNL NBC 100%

14 KWHE comes on sometimes very weak mostly no signal

19 KIKU 100%

26 KAAH 80%

43 KWBN 100%

66 ION 90-100%


Thank you!


----------



## arxaw

OTAhead,

retiredengineer is most likely correct; the TVGuide OnScreen guide data for your problem channel has likely not been updated. You need to contact Tribune Media and explain the details of the problem you're having with that specific channel and when it began.
*[email protected]*


Also see the thread for your DVR, at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forum...aysprune=&f=42 

And TVGOS specific issues at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1122914


----------



## OTAhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21797133
> 
> 
> OTAhead,
> 
> retiredengineer is most likely correct; the TVGuide OnScreen guide data for your problem channel has likely not been updated. You need to contact Tribune Media and explain the details of the problem you're having with that specific channel and when it began.
> *[email protected]*
> 
> 
> Also see the thread for your DVR, at:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forum...aysprune=&f=42
> 
> And TVGOS specific issues at:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1122914



Thanks. Will do.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pete.* /forum/post/21796918
> 
> 
> Hello, I am trying to record some news and drama shows on station KIKU with my Hauppuage WinTV-HVR-1250 tuner card. The issue is KIKU can not be picked up during a channel scan.
> 
> I also have Channel Master tuner box with my homemade antenna that does get KIKU. The antenna is attached to both the CM and PC tuner.
> http://i39.tinypic.com/2gtunph.jpg
> 
> I have done signal scanning for both the PC tuner and CM on the SE and NW windows on the second story with similar TV signal strengths. Neither side SE or NW helped the PC tuner pick up KIKU during a channel scan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In another test - I left the CM with signal strength indicator on - for KIKU. I moved around the house and even rotated the antenna in all directions - KIKU signal was solid at 100%. The station signal is very strong.
> 
> 
> Channel Master picked up channels with signal strength info from SE:
> 
> 2 KHON comes on sometimes very weak mostly no signal
> 
> 4 KITV ABC 100%
> 
> 5 KGMB CBS 100%
> 
> 9 KFVE 100%
> 
> 11 KHET PBS 100%
> 
> 13 KHNL NBC 100%
> 
> 14 KWHE comes on sometimes very weak mostly no signal
> 
> 19 KIKU 100%
> 
> 26 KAAH 80%
> 
> 43 KWBN 100%
> 
> 66 ION 90-100%
> 
> 
> Thank you!



Hi,


What arxaw just posted is well worth a try.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...ostcount=14623 


It solves many problems. Can you add individual channels?


A more directional antenna may help if you are getting multipath from the mountains to the East.


TV Fool Google map

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90 


The Hauppuage WinTV-HVR-1250 tuner appears to be a older card (2008) so it may not have the latest tuner which eliminates some reception problems.


Have you tried Windows Media Center?


Lots of posts here on AVS about the Hauppuage WinTV-HVR-1250 tuner.


SHF


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21794488
> 
> 
> The CM DVR has great tuners. But it has two of them, so the signal is split between them and signal strength is reduced.



Are you sure that's the case? If it is then that's a bad design. I have the original Dish DTVPal DVR and it has a small low noise figure amp before the Microtune MT2131 tuners that acts as a distribution amp. It's also in place in pass-through mode so there's no loss when I connect my TV to the DVR RF output. The amp is made by Microtune specifically to run two tuners.


Chuck


----------



## arxaw

I was not aware of the distro amp in the dtvpal DVR. Thanks for the info.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> If the 7777's FM trap isn't enough, try the HLSJ.



Solid Signal lists that item as discontinued. Looks like it passed DC only on low VHF which would complicate your setup if you wanted a high VHF preamp.


Chuck


----------



## Konrad2

>> If the 7777's FM trap isn't enough, try the HLSJ.

>

> Solid Signal lists that item as discontinued.


Solid Signal lists it, if you don't mind paying for the Blonder Tongue

sticker.
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...ce=google_base 


Less expensive here with a Holland sticker:
http://www.opentip.com/Electronics-C...p-2303464.html 


More places here:
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=sho...dd&safe=active 


> Looks like it passed

> DC only on low VHF which would complicate your setup if you wanted

> a high VHF preamp.


The LO port is basicly a low pass filter. The HI port is basicly a

high pass filter. Not a surprise that the HI port doesn't pass DC.

If you need a preamp on VHF-HI, put the HLSJ upstream of the preamp

(and keep the FM out of the preamp) and/or downstream of the power

injector. I've seen FM get in through a power injector, so using one

both places can be a good idea if FM is a problem.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21797760
> 
> 
> I was not aware of the distro amp in the dtvpal DVR. Thanks for the info.



The Channel Master 7000 DVR is the same as the Dish DTVpal DVR, so it should have the built in distro amp as well, if indeed that is the case. And that original CM DVR does have a very good tuner, unlike the newer 7400 version. The new version will only decode a strong signal, as weaker or distant signals will not be received, with or without a preamp. Perhaps the internal power supply is not grounded properly and generates too much noise. But the original CM DVR had a much better tuner design.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/21798405
> 
> 
> Solid Signal lists it, if you don't mind paying for the Blonder Tongue
> 
> sticker.
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...ce=google_base
> 
> 
> Less expensive here with a Holland sticker:
> http://www.opentip.com/Electronics-C...p-2303464.html



Good to know there is something very inexpensive still available. If you want a high quality one though you'll need to spend real money. Tinlee makes them, better than 40 dB attenuation and you can request any combination of pass/block DC.


Chuck


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC* /forum/post/21799150
> 
> 
> The Channel Master 7000 DVR is the same as the Dish DTVpal DVR, so it should have the built in distro amp as well, if indeed that is the case. And that original CM DVR does have a very good tuner, unlike the newer 7400 version. The new version will only decode a strong signal, as weaker or distant signals will not be received, with or without a preamp. Perhaps the internal power supply is not grounded properly and generates too much noise. But the original CM DVR had a much better tuner design.



I've been watching the CM7400 thread. The reality is that without running some real tests, nobody knows what the issue is. If a preamp doesn't help, then it's unlikely to be a sensitivity issue. It's more likely to be a multipath handling issue.


I've spent a huge amount of time looking at DTV signals on a spectrum analyzer. No one can tell what is a strong signal or weak signal by reading the signal quality meter on their TV or DVR and any statements about signal strength based on that alone are speculation. Although the spectrum analyzer cannot show you multipath directly, you can infer that from the signal strength on the analyzer and the signal quality reading from your tuner.


I've had 5 different ATSC tuners here and the sensitivity of all of them is set by my preamps. Four of the tuners seem to have nearly identical multipath handling capabilities. One tuner, the Dish VIP-622 consistently performs 3-4 dB worse in handling multipath. I can't use that tuner for OTA because I have major multipath issues.


Chuck


----------



## tylerSC

Well, you work hard to have a good antenna and preamp set up for OTA reception, so it is very frustrating that you pay a premium price for a premium product that does not adequately perform its basic core function. While the CM-7400 will receive strong local signals, it does not receive weak or distant signals like its predecessor the 7000, and other good TV tuners such as LG, Samsung, and Panasonic. I know, I tried. Different antennas, with and without a preamp. And despite its running hot, I really wanted to like this box. But finally got frustrated and returned it to Fry's. Now waiting on the new epVision box to be released. Better design I hope.


----------



## Humey

Need a recommendation. I live in Studio City in Los Angeles. I need a new antenna for the outside. Would love an indoor if you can guarantee performance. Will be connected to a Directv AM-21. Someone in my family decided to throw away the old one when we re roofed the house. Couldnt figure out why Am-21 didnt work last night. When i checked it out this morning, i realized i had a missing antenna


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Humey* /forum/post/21808667
> 
> 
> Need a recommendation. I live in Studio City in Los Angeles. I need a new antenna for the outside. Would love an indoor if you can guarantee performance. Will be connected to a Directv AM-21. Someone in my family decided to throw away the old one when we re roofed the house. Couldnt figure out why Am-21 didnt work last night. When i checked it out this morning, i realized i had a missing antenna



Outdoor: RCA ANT-751 Medium Gain Hi-VHF/UHF Antenna...about 36"x36",

on sale at Walmart, check their website for store availability, can also

order for store pickup (and free return). Do NOT use a Preamp.


Indoor--likely but no guarantees are EVER possible given the variety of Unknownzzzzz:

Rabbit Ear/Loop types, see EV's Indoor Antenna Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779


----------



## arxaw

*+1* on the ANT751 suggestion. http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out...B5C/ref=sr_1_1 


Indoor is impossible to predict, but worth a try if your TVFool results show strong (green) signals at your address. Try the budget RS rabbit ear/ loop . If unreliable, you probably have indoor electrical/electronics interference or building material issues blocking signal (stucco, foil insulation, etc.). If so, return the rabbit ear/loop antenna and get the ANT751.


----------



## retiredengineer

An indoor antenna cannot see signals very well through double pane windows with low E-coatings. I can only receive stations when I open the window.


----------



## OTAhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21809346
> 
> *+1* on the ANT751 suggestion. http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out...B5C/ref=sr_1_1
> 
> 
> Indoor is impossible to predict, but worth a try if your TVFool results show strong (green) signals at your address. Try the budget RS rabbit ear/ loop . If unreliable, you probably have indoor electrical/electronics interference or building material issues blocking signal (stucco, foil insulation, etc.). If so, return the rabbit ear/loop antenna and get the ANT751.



If you have a Family Dollar nearby, they have a simple rabbit ear/loop combo antenna for only $10. I think Big Lots has them for $10 as well. Big Lots used to have a pretty decent little rabbit ear/loop antenna for only $4, but they don't anymore...


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *OTAhead* /forum/post/21833563
> 
> 
> If you have a Family Dollar nearby, they have a simple rabbit ear/loop combo antenna for only $10. I think Big Lots has them for $10 as well. Big Lots used to have a pretty decent little rabbit ear/loop antenna for only $4, but they don't anymore...



I would pay a little more and get the Radioshack version. Their budget rabbit ears/loop is built a bit better than similar designs and normally provides better reception results.


----------



## arxaw

I totally agree with tylerSC.


The RS budget antenna is better designed (bigger loop, heavier gauge coax, etc.) than other antennas that look very similar. And based on personal experience and reports from other AVSForum members, when indoor reception is marginal, the RS budget nearly always works better.


And it's only $13 (or $10, when it sometimes goes on sale).


----------



## Konrad2

tylerSC writes:

> I would pay a little more and get the Radioshack version. Their budget

> rabbit ears/loop is built a bit better than similar designs and normally

> provides better reception results.


Wow! You know you're scraping the bottom of the barrel when

a Radioshack item is described as being better.


----------



## arxaw

I'm no fan of RS. And I loathe going into their stores. But in this case, it is a better performing product than others that look very similar.


----------



## tribby2001

 All my major network local stations (UHF only and LOS) are transmitting from the same direction (260 degs) about 15 miles from my home. 


I will need to feed 3 TVs over RG6 (3GHz rated) with a splitter. The longest run being about 60ft. Was wondering which Yagi type antenna for the attic of my one story house would you recommend? Would a pre-amp be neccessary?


As an aside, I was considering the Winegard SquareShooter SS-2000, at about 6 ft above ground level, off a pole mounted satellite dish. But I don't expect to have any multi-path issues here which I understand is what the SS-2000 flat panel is supposedly designed to reject. However, being mounted outdoors and the built-in preamp would likely drive 3 TVs just fine.


----------



## tribby2001

Thoughts?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tribby2001* /forum/post/21835573
> 
> 
> Thoughts?



I would never consider a preamp for stations only 15 miles LOS, especially if I assume they're full power stations. I have a single 50KW station 14 miles LOS and it has wreacked havoc with some preamps. I use a notch filter to keep the giant signal out of the TV with a preamp.


I also never recommend any indoor antenna if you have any outdoor option. LOS is essentially multipath proof but indoor or attic is not LOS. LOS means you can see the transmit antennas if you put your head where the receive antenna is, even it takes a telescope.


At just 15 miles from the transmitters just about about any UHF antenna will work but I still recommend something with at least some directivity. You should have plenty of signal to use a 4 way splitter with no amplifiers.


Chuck


----------



## tribby2001




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21835745
> 
> 
> I would never consider a preamp for stations only 15 miles LOS, especially if I assume they're full power stations. I have a single 50KW station 14 miles LOS and it has wreacked havoc with some preamps. I use a notch filter to keep the giant signal out of the TV with a preamp.
> 
> 
> I also never recommend any indoor antenna if you have any outdoor option. LOS is essentially multipath proof but indoor or attic is not LOS. LOS means you can see the transmit antennas if you put your head where the receive antenna is, even it takes a telescope.
> 
> 
> At just 15 miles from the transmitters just about about any UHF antenna will work but I still recommend something with at least some directivity. You should have plenty of signal to use a 4 way splitter with no amplifiers.
> 
> 
> Chuck



Thanks for that , Chuck.


I realize I have an almost ideal reception location










However, I can't honestly say I have true LOS. There is a single line of trees about 80ft from and between my proposed outdoor antenna site at the satellite dish and the tower. As well as neighboring homes in the LOS beyond.


Using an indoor antenna works fairly well (75-99) at all the TVs *IF* they are oriented just so and we ignore the aesthetics. Which doesn't please the wife. We would like to get them out of here and use a single outdoor antenna solution. But, without spending a small fortune on experiments and ending up with a small pile of "wire objects".


In light of what you said and considering cable, splitter and connector losses I think I have narrowed my choices.


1) Winegard non-amped SquareShooter SS-1000

2) Antennas Direct C1 ClearStream1


...and both pleasing to look at!


Any others I should consider?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tribby2001* /forum/post/21836475
> 
> 
> However, I can't honestly say I have true LOS. There is a single line of trees about 80ft from and between my proposed outdoor antenna site at the satellite dish and the tower. As well as neighboring homes in the LOS beyond.
> 
> 
> Using an indoor antenna works fairly well (75-99) at all the TVs *IF* they are oriented just so and we ignore the aesthetics. Which doesn't please the wife. We would like to get them out of here and use a single outdoor antenna solution. But, without spending a small fortune on experiments and ending up with a small pile of "wire objects".
> 
> 
> In light of what you said and considering cable, splitter and connector losses I think I have narrowed my choices.
> 
> 
> 1) Winegard non-amped SquareShooter SS-1000
> 
> 2) Antennas Direct C1 ClearStream1
> 
> 
> ...and both pleasing to look at!
> 
> 
> Any others I should consider?



Buy your antenna from a place that accepts returns if it doesn't work. If I had to pick one of the above, I'd choose #1. But I'd prefer something along the lines of the following for you. Others may have different opinions.

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Antennas&sku= 

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Antennas&sku= 


My #1 priority is receiving the stations. Aesthetics are last on my list. What good is a pretty antenna if it doesn't receive the stations you want?


Trees can be problem, especially on UHF. I installed an antenna at my cousin's house that was 17 miles away from and LOS to the transmitters except for a line of tall trees. One station could not be received because of the trees and others were not as good as they should have been. Unfortunately the trees were 100' high so we had to accept what we received.


Your antenna should always clear the local ground clutter if at all possible.


Chuck


----------



## tylerSC

Clearstream 1 would be my choice, and at 15 miles, it will probably get VHF as well as UHF if you need it. Although Squareshooter may be a bit more aesthetically pleasing, and should also work well.


----------



## yatri25

Hi all,


I'd like your help determining the best antenna or antennas and accessories like pre amps for my location.


Here's my tvfool
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b8634f0973849 


Currently using a RCA ANT751R inside. Leaning towards building an SBGH or DBGH with NORODs. (which GH should I build?) For the most part I'm between two tower clusters very close to 180 degrees apart.


Planning for an attic install. I'm really trying to receive as many stations as possible.


Which antenna(s) best suit(s) my location?

Do I need a pre amp?

Two antennas or one omnidirectional antenna?

I'm trying to avoid using a rotor or an a/b switch, but I will if that will work best.


Thank you for any help or suggestions


----------



## tribby2001

Thanks for the feedback Chuck and Tyler.


I have a plan. Found an open box C1 ClearStream with a great price and will try it outdoors at the dish. If I am unsatisfied with the results I'll consider one of the following up in the attic:


Antennas Direct DB4E

Channel Master 4221HD

Winegard HD-9022


The above should have plenty of gain to overcome the 1-3 dB loss under asphalt shingles.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *yatri25* /forum/post/21837682
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> 
> I'd like your help determining the best antenna or antennas and accessories like pre amps for my location.
> 
> 
> Here's my tvfool
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b8634f0973849
> 
> 
> Currently using a RCA ANT751R inside. Leaning towards building an SBGH or DBGH with NORODs. (which GH should I build?) For the most part I'm between two tower clusters very close to 180 degrees apart.
> 
> 
> Planning for an attic install. I'm really trying to receive as many stations as possible.
> 
> 
> Which antenna(s) best suit(s) my location?
> 
> Do I need a pre amp?
> 
> Two antennas or one omnidirectional antenna?
> 
> I'm trying to avoid using a rotor or an a/b switch, but I will if that will work best.
> 
> 
> Thank you for any help or suggestions



I think you could put togather a stacked bowtie array that might work well. Making such out of stiff wire shouldn't be a problem. The problem might be getting 300 ohm twinlead to tie the elements. Keeping the 300 ohm value between the elements will be important. And you'll need a balun to attach the antenna to the coax coming down from the attic. How many bowties you use depends on the room available. And you will need to make them larger than a typical clip on, as you have at least one VHF to recieve. Maybe 30% larger. The bowties will recieve the same from front and back, in fact they don't have a real front and back. You could also buy some bowties and stack them on a dowel. Given that you need reception from stations 180 degrees more or less apart, bowties sound good. Don't think on the pre-amp until you see what the antenna will do on it's own.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *yatri25* /forum/post/21837682
> 
> 
> ....Currently using a RCA ANT751R inside.



Using the ANT751, what is the weakest channel (lowest on your TVFool report) that you can _reliably_ receive now?


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Leaning towards building an SBGH or DBGH with NORODs. (which GH should I build?) For the most part I'm between two tower clusters very close to 180 degrees apart.



Well, you only have 2 vhf-hi channels in range. One is 56.1 NM which you could get on a reflectorless SBGH without NARODs. The other is a duplicate NBC channel you may not want anyway. If you do want that NBC, then I would build a reflectorless DBGH with NARODs, otherwise a simple reflectorless SBGH should do you well down to 22.8 NM.


----------



## tribby2001




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse* /forum/post/21838105
> 
> 
> I think you could put togather a stacked bowtie array that might work well. Making such out of stiff wire shouldn't be a problem. The problem might be getting 300 ohm twinlead to tie the elements. Keeping the 300 ohm value between the elements will be important. And you'll need a balun to attach the antenna to the coax coming down from the attic. How many bowties you use depends on the room available. And you will need to make them larger than a typical clip on, as you have at least one VHF to recieve. Maybe 30% larger. The bowties will recieve the same from front and back, in fact they don't have a real front and back. You could also buy some bowties and stack them on a dowel. Given that you need reception from stations 180 degrees more or less apart, bowties sound good. Don't think on the pre-amp until you see what the antenna will do on it's own.



I thought about purchasing a 4 element bow-tie array, like the Antennas Direct DB4E or Channel Master 4221HD for example, and simply mount it without it's reflector. Should be bi-directional - "8" - no?


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tribby2001* /forum/post/21847303
> 
> 
> I thought about purchasing a 4 element bow-tie array, like the Antennas Direct DB4E or Channel Master 4221HD for example, and simply mount it without it's reflector. Should be bi-directional - "8" - no?




Yes, it's bidirectional without a reflector.


----------



## tribby2001




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADTech* /forum/post/21847425
> 
> 
> Yes, it's bidirectional without a reflector.













I may try an 8-element (DB8), sans reflector, tied together with a 2x2 in the attic









Do you reckon I could receive out to 70 miles?


----------



## Dave Loudin

We have no idea if you would reach 70 miles or 7. Mileage ratings for antennas are estimates for very particular conditions.


Actually, we do know since you provided a TVFool report. All the stations to your east must travel 2-edge paths and all have negative noise margins. The implication is you need a high-gain antenna to have any shot of reliable reception (read the signal analysis FAQ linked to your TVFool report for further details.) A 4-bowtie array is a waste of time.


The DB4e should be all you need for your locals to the west. Don't forget that the usual penalty for attic installations is 10 or more dB, plus rain-soaked shingles will add more loss.


----------



## tribby2001




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dave Loudin* /forum/post/21847618
> 
> 
> The DB4e should be all you need for your locals to the west. Don't forget that the usual penalty for attic installations is 10 or more dB, plus rain-soaked shingles will add more loss.



RAIN!?







scratch (sound of eraser).

Didn't think about that.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tribby2001* /forum/post/21847496
> 
> 
> Do you reckon I could receive out to 70 miles?



I looked up WCGV and found its antenna is 346 meters above the ground and 340 meters over average terrain. Over flat ground the distance to the horizon is about 40 miles. Unless you live on a hill, it's unlikely you'll be able to receive any of those 70 mile stations with any antenna within reason with any reliability.


Chuck


----------



## tribby2001




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21847771
> 
> 
> I looked up WCGV and found its antenna is 346 meters above the ground and 340 meters over average terrain. Over flat ground the distance to the horizon is about 40 miles. Unless you live on a hill, it's unlikely you'll be able to receive any of those 70 mile stations with any antenna within reason with any reliability.
> 
> 
> Chuck



Thanks, Chuck. This place has saved me a lot of unneccessary attic excursions.


It seems to me, at least in my case, that a decent small outdoor antenna such as a dual bow-tie DB2, C1 ClearStream1 or SquareShooter SS-1000 will likely provide very good and importantly "consistant" reception for my local major network stations. Which is really all that I need.


I'll probably have something setup next week and will report back here...


----------



## OTAhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21795518
> 
> 
> Have you tried a double re-scan?
> 
> 1. Disconnect the antenna.
> 
> 2. Run autoscan or whatever it's called in the setup menu.
> 
> 3. Reconnect the antenna.
> 
> 4. Run autoscan again.
> 
> 
> I had a similar problem when a local station made changes to their PSIP data. The TV tuner could still "see" the station, but it could no longer decode it. The above procedure fixed it.



I finally got a chance to try a double scan this evening, and lo and behold, it worked. I am now able to tune KBMT channel 12 again on the DVR. Weird. I wonder why that works when deleting the channel and even resetting the DVR back to factory settings does not. Thanks for the tips and the help in this whole ordeal. Everything now is clicking on all 8 cylinders. I thank you all.


----------



## arxaw

The full scan with the antenna disconnected completely clears out the channel memory. One would think that channel delete and/or complete reset would do the same, but it doesn't always do that. Glad it fixed your problem.


----------



## OTAhead

All the Channel Master DVR owners manual had to say about it was: "If you lose a channel, try another channel". Moronic.


----------



## Mister B

I recently purchased a Tivo Premiere with a one year commitment and discovered too late that it is known to have a rather poor OTA tuner. I have had the most success with the RCA (Winegard) 721 antenna at about 25 feet. One continuous 70 foot RG-6 leads in to only the Tivo.

Still I get occasional pixelation on KCOS and KVIA (both the RF7 or RF17 versions). The signal quality and SNR figure is constantly on the move for these channels although the SNR does not fall below about 21 at any time. I have read that fluctuating SNR's may be a sign of multipath reception, but the Juarez analogs do not show hardly any "ghost" at all.

I tried the Winegard 269 amp, and it did literally nothing, no change with or without it. It got returned.

So, my question is would any amp help to stabilize the signal? I have heard that the SNR is determined by the amp and hope that a very high quality amp such as one of the Kitztech's would help.

My TV fool chart is http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b86526f12dec2


----------



## Digital Rules

If the HDP-269 didn't help, I doubt a different pre amp would be any better. Have you ever tried raising/lowering the antenna a few inches up/down? It may just be sitting in a bad spot for those problem stations. The fluctuations you are experiencing usually indicate a poor quality signal which is many times cured with a slight vertical adjustment.


----------



## Mister B




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/21851718
> 
> 
> Have you ever tried raising/lowering the antenna a few inches up/down? It may just be sitting in a bad spot for those problem stations.



Yes, just this week I let the antenna down (telescoping mast) about 6 inches at a time from the 25 feet down to about 12 feet. Really, no difference all the way down.

I forgot to mention also, I tried two in-line Blonder-Tounge HLSJ's with the low port terminated to act as a possible FM trap. No change.


----------



## arxaw

Have you tried aiming off-axis from the tower direction? Sometimes that will help. An FM trap will not help with RF 17. You might also try an inline attenuator. Some people say it won't help, but I have seen it help with a multipath problem. Solidsignal has them in stock. RS used to, but.....


You're correct about the Tivo tuners. Not very good with multipath.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mister B* /forum/post/21851658
> 
> 
> Still I get occasional pixelation on KCOS and KVIA (both the RF7 or RF17 versions). The signal quality and SNR figure is constantly on the move for these channels although the SNR does not fall below about 21 at any time. I have read that fluctuating SNR's may be a sign of multipath reception, but the Juarez analogs do not show hardly any "ghost" at all.



I looked at your TVFool results and your stations are close, LOS and very strong. Are you looking through trees? If you have true LOS to the transmitters it's essentially impossible to have the SNRs jump around. They should all be 30 dB plus. The only time I've seen this sort of behavior is when trees were messing up the signal.



> Quote:
> I have heard that the SNR is determined by the amp and hope that a very high quality amp such as one of the Kitztech's would help.



Yes, the system noise figure is determined by the first amplifier. It's possible to approach the noise figure of the preamp if all the losses after the preamp plus about 8 dB is equal to or less than the preamp gain. There's a formula to calculate overall noise figure.


That said, it's no surprise that the HDP 269 didn't do anything. Signal strength isn't your problem.


I'm not sure I would call the Kitztech a "high quality" amplifier. It has a very low noise figure but it achieves that by not using any input filtering. Most other preamps use input filtering to reduce the chances for unwanted signals to overload the preamp. Filters are not zero insertion loss. You would need to carefully evaluate your situation before using the Kitztech.


I recently replaced a Winegard AP8700 with a Kitztech on my VHF antennas. The 8700 was a bit low on gain in my situation. I live in a rural area with no strong high VHF stations or FM stations or other transmitters below 174 MHz. I felt I could get away with a preamp with no filters other than the filtering affect of the antennas themselves. Between the higher gain and the lower noise figure of the Kitztech, I calculated that I picked up at least 3 dB in SNR. The result was that my weakest station (CH 7 110 miles distant) went from about 75% reception to 90% reception, an improvement but no miracle. No change was seen on any of my stronger stations.


Chuck


----------



## Mister B

Thanks for all of the input. I guess I have tried most of the usual suspects in this situation. If I get too far off axis I loose RF 17 and even the RF 7 counterpart, which TV Fool is not showing. KVIA plans to move from 7 to 17 but have been running both for about two years.

I tried 6db attenuators up to three of them equalling 18db, of course lost several stations at that point.

Yes, there are trees! There is a row of pine trees about 100 feet from the antenna, which it must "look through". However, they are rather thin, under-irrigated West Texas trees and I have the antenna in a position that best looks through them. They have not changed much in the 12 years I have lived here which would include the pre-digital era and my first HD set top box (a Samsung SIR-165).

And, no, unfortunately I can not cut them down. They are meant to shield the trailer park from some of the strong westerly winds.


----------



## Digital Rules

You may need more antenna if all of the above suggestions have been tried & didn't help. The slightly larger Winegard 7694 or Antennacraft HBU-33 will offer an improvement in signal gain for both UHF & VHF & also help reduce multipath. Those pine trees must be attenuating the signals quite a bit before they are reaching the antenna.


----------



## Mister B




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/21852468
> 
> 
> You may need more antenna if all of the above suggestions have been tried & didn't help.



I am sorry to keep rejecting all of these well meaning and helpful suggestions, but I have already tried my old Winegard 4400 for UHF and YA-1713 for VHF-HI both separately and combined with a UVSJ. No real difference.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mister B* /forum/post/21852636
> 
> 
> I am sorry to keep rejecting all of these well meaning and helpful suggestions, but I have already tried my old Winegard 4400 for UHF and YA-1713 for VHF-HI both separately and combined with a UVSJ. No real difference.



What is an RCA 721? A Google search doesn't return anything useful except your post.


If you put 18 dB of attenuation in line and lost some stations then I think there is something else going on. TVFool is saying you have noise margins of 55 dB and that makes sense at your distance LOS. You should easily be able to add that amount of attenuation and have nothing happen. The fact that your noise margins are that low is pointing to some unrecognized problem.


I looked up KVIA and KCOS and I see they're both high VHF stations. Problems on VHF and not UHF? That alone is a little suspicious. Trees are rarely a problem on VHF, especially the type you describe.


Chuck


----------



## retiredengineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mister B* /forum/post/21852636
> 
> 
> I am sorry to keep rejecting all of these well meaning and helpful suggestions, but I have already tried my old Winegard 4400 for UHF and YA-1713 for VHF-HI both separately and combined with a UVSJ. No real difference.



According to your TVFool location and the fact that you are looking almost due west (266 deg.), you are looking directly at the El Paso International airport. Airplanes taking off and landing will most certainly create reflections that look like multipath thereby causing pixelation. I don't know of anyway to mitigate that. Perhaps someone else knows.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21852726
> 
> 
> What is an RCA 721?



RCA *ANT*7*5*1 (made by Winegard).


----------



## 300ohm

At over 50 NM, you don't need any preamp. The problem lies elsewhere.


Have you tried simple indoor antennas ?


----------



## dhett




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mister B* /forum/post/21852636
> 
> 
> I am sorry to keep rejecting all of these well meaning and helpful suggestions, but I have already tried my old Winegard 4400 for UHF and YA-1713 for VHF-HI both separately and combined with a UVSJ. No real difference.



There may not be anything significant that you can do. I'm not certain that the problem isn't from the stations themselves. I was in El Paso in February, and attempted to get transport stream reads on the stations there. I don't recall having problems with KCOS, but KVIA was a bear, moreso on ch 7, but on ch 17 also. I got reads on most stations from near the junction of Paisano and Montana, but KVIA was a problem. I then attempted to read KVIA from about 1/2 mile west of the junction of Montana and Loop 375. KVIA's signal was all over the place at both locations, on both frequencies, but was better near Loop 375 than further in.


The El Paso HDTV thread often has tales of woe receiving local digital stations.


----------



## Mister B

Sorry for the typo on the RCA 751. I live in an aluminum mobile home with a steel roof, so an indoor antenna is not at all feasible.

TV Fool is not entirely correct for El Paso. As I alluded to above, KVIA is in the process of moving from RF 7 to RF 17. 17 was the pre-transition frequency and was quite reliable after they got beyond the 1 KW start-up phase. Both 7 and 17 have been available for at least two years now and at least in my location 17 is much weaker. RF 7 shows a signal quality on the Tivo of about 74 and SNR around 26, but it continually fluctuates like KCOS does. RF 17 has a signal quality of about 48 and SNR of 22, but is very steady. Last night I switched to the 17 version of KVIA and made it through both the ABC and local news without any break-ups.

KTSM is also switching from RF 9 to RF 16, again their pre-transition frequency. Tivo thinks that KTSM is only available on 16, and although I could scan in the RF 9 version I have not as their would be no guide data and recordings would have to be manual. Besides, I figure as they are going to the RF 16 permanently, I may as well use it. That said channel 16 also fluctuates continously, but with SNR's in the range of 24 to 31 I have never seen a problem with that signal.

I too am thinking that this is primarily a VHF problem, in that the worst offenders are RF 7 and 13. The channel 17 signal is just weak, they may not be operating at the power indicated by TV Fool. I will continue to hope for better results on 17 for KVIA however. As for my PBS, of which I am a member and long time supporter, I may have to look into the possibility of bring in KRWG from Las Cruces. I have received channel 23 before, but have not made much effort since they went digital. That would be another project for another day.

In the final conclusion, it is very disappointing that Tivo put such a poor OTA tuner in what otherwise seems to be a very good DVR. I realize there are challenges to my reception location, but I have no problems with my six year old Sony KDF-37H100, nor do my neighbors who have a "Polaroid" flat screen and an old Radio Shack VU-90 antenna that I gave them.


----------



## arxaw

*If* both channel 16 and channel 17 are on the air, you may have adjacent channel interference that your tivo tuners just can't deal with.


Re your Sony and Polaroid TVs: Sony has had excellent OTA ATSC tuners for years. And IIRC, some Polaroid TVs have used LG tuner chipsets, which would explain the superior OTA performance of the neighbor's Polaroid set.


Just for the hell of it, have you tried your Tivo in the room where your Sony is located, connecting it to that coax?


----------



## Calaveras

I don't know that there is much else we can do to help you short of someone going to your place with a spectrum analyzer. We're all just taking guesses.


Maybe your TiVo is bad. I've read lots of comments from TiVo owners who use them OTA and they all seem to love them. If the tuner was that bad then everyone would hate them. If your old Sony works fine then maybe it is just a bad TiVo unit.


At 18 miles LOS from your transmitters power shouldn't make any difference. I have a transmitter site 14 miles LOS from here with stations on 3, 18 and 28. Channel 28 has just 300 watts in my direction and it gives me a noise margin of 40 dB. Channel 18 has 58 KW in my direction and a noise margin of 65 dB (too strong). I've measured these on a spectrum analyzer. Channel 3 has 30 watts in my direction and my Sony TV gives an SNR of 25 dB using an FM antenna.


The ideas that your stations are too weak, the tuner is too poor, airplanes are breaking up the signal, trees are in the way, etc., don't make any sense in your situation.


BTW, I see XEPM and XEJ listed in your TVFool report. I received both those stations last summer during Es events. XEPM was especially strong. I took a shot of the TV. Image attached. Mountain Ranch is in the Sierra Nevada foothills.


Chuck


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> In the final conclusion, it is very disappointing that Tivo put such a poor OTA tuner in what otherwise seems to be a very good DVR. I realize there are challenges to my reception location, but I have no problems with my six year old Sony KDF-37H100, nor do my neighbors who have a "Polaroid" flat screen and an old Radio Shack VU-90 antenna that I gave them.



Maybe your individual Tivo tuner is so poor and out of spec you should consider it defective. It should have a warranty, so RMA and try another unit.



> Quote:
> I live in an aluminum mobile home with a steel roof, so an indoor antenna is not at all feasible.



That could be a source of the multipath reflections, so you could try moving the mast to various places around the yard.



> Quote:
> I don't know of anyway to mitigate that. Perhaps someone else knows.



Vertically stacking of identical antennas will decrease the effects from airplane fluctuations (but wont completely eliminate). A vertical stack with its narrower vertical beam should also help reduce multipath reflections in a mobile home park.


----------



## tylerSC

The TiVo tuner is not as sensitive as most built in TV tuners, as I have compared to my Samsung using same antenna set up. It may have to do with the error correction aspect of the tuner in dealing with weak or marginal signals, or multipath. My TiVo will receive relatively strong signals at 70 miles, but there are a few closer range signals that it will not lock onto as well as the Samsung. I think it's more of a signal quality issue rather than signal strength, and if the signal quality is not that good, then the TiVo has difficulty decoding it. Unlike the Samsung.


----------



## arxaw

tylerSC,

I have also heard that the Tivo sometimes does not deal with multipath very well.


----------



## Calaveras

I poked around a little to see what I could dig up on the TiVo OTA tuner. There's the usual confusion between signal quality and signal strength but my take is that the TiVo (HD and Premiere) don't handle multipath very well. One discussion is here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=446075 


One person notes that the TiVo uses the Microtune MT2131 chip set. That's interesting because my DTVPal DVR uses the same chip set and its multipath handling is identical to my Sony TV and the MyGoTV portable I have. I have major multipath issues here and any tuner less than the best is unusable. My Dish Network VIP-622 has a tuner with poor multipath handling and I can't use it.


The description of the SNR continually jumping around sounds like the equalizer is hunting around for the best setting and never settles on one. You wouldn't want it doing that because you'd lose the picture every time it tried a new setting. Sometimes when my Sony tunes to a channel it'll produce a picture and then retune and put the picture back up. If I watch the diagnostic screen when that happens I see a different SNR displayed on the 2nd tuning, usually better.


I can only speculate, but perhaps the firmware in the TiVo is having a problem in some situations settling on an equalizer setting. Other devices are using the same chips without this problem.


I hope my DTVPal DVR never breaks because it sounds like the TiVo would not work for me.


Chuck


----------



## Calaveras

I had not seen this before and it might be of interest to some.

http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/document...on-testing.doc 


The FCC tested a bunch of DTVs and STBs back in 2008 for sensitivity in a no multipath environment and separate tests for multipath. Sensitivity was mostly in a narrow range except on low VHF but the multipath tests were all over the place. Multipath tests were not quantitative but consisted of 47 recordings of OTA signals at different locations around New York and Washington and then played back in a loop to the DTVs and STBs in the lab.


It would be nice to have a modern version of this test with the DTV models identified.


Chuck


----------



## arxaw

Well, with the current FCC attitude, it'll probably be a cold day in August before you see such a test. It seems they would like for OTA to just go away, so they can transfer all the spectrum to their buddies in the wireless smartphone world.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21855092
> 
> 
> I had not seen this before and it might be of interest to some.
> 
> http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/document...on-testing.doc
> 
> 
> The FCC tested a bunch of DTVs and STBs back in 2008 for sensitivity in a no multipath environment and separate tests for multipath. Sensitivity was mostly in a narrow range except on low VHF but the multipath tests were all over the place. Multipath tests were not quantitative but consisted of 47 recordings of OTA signals at different locations around New York and Washington and then played back in a loop to the DTVs and STBs in the lab.
> 
> 
> It would be nice to have a modern version of this test with the DTV models identified.
> 
> 
> Chuck



Are you suggesting the FCC should act in some way as a Public Servant?


----------



## Calaveras

I didn't mean to imply that the FCC has to or should do it. There are many ways it could be done. I could do a reasonable job at it here with just my spectrum analyzer, my step attenuator and my many OTA multipath signals if I could borrow a bunch of TVs.










Chuck


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21855503
> 
> 
> I didn't mean to imply that the FCC has to or should do it. There are many ways it could be done. I could do a reasonable job at it here with just my spectrum analyzer, my step attenuator and my many OTA multipath signals if I could borrow a bunch of TVs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chuck



Thank you. My question was intended as irony. I am not surprised that the FCC is not thought of as Public Servant that might perform the office you suggested. I agree this might not be a job for the FCC, unless the FCC saw a public interest in OTA television.


----------



## JonT43




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse* /forum/post/21855427
> 
> 
> Are you suggesting the FCC should act in some way as a Public Servant?



Yep. To protect and serve us TV 24 hours a day


----------



## yatri25




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21842572
> 
> 
> Using the ANT751, what is the weakest channel (lowest on your TVFool report) that you can _reliably_ receive now?


 TV Fool Report 


Hi arxaw,


The weakest channel that I can _reliably_ receive is:


WEDH-DT (Digital)

Channel: 45

Network: PBS

Maximum ERP: 490.000 kW

Coordinates: 41.703711 -72.832044


There are several stations that are just a little too weak but can be received on odd days and or if I adjust everything to receive TV. For example, turning off my computer and wireless modem/router and pointing the antenna at their tower will lock in reception of:

WFSB (Digital) Channel: 33 Network: CBS


And it sometimes will work with these stations although with an obvious decrease of reliability:

WUVN-DT (Digital) Channel: 46 (18.1) Network: Univision (SI),

and

WSAH-DT (Digital) Channel: 42 (43.1) Network: Independent


One deficiency in my current configuration is the RG-59/U coaxial cable connecting the antenna to the TV, which was installed by the previous owner of the house. I bought a spool of RG6 Quad Shield Solid Copper Core. I was planning to install the new cable when installing a new antenna.


Suspected obstacles to reception in general are the radio towers at the summit of West Peak in Meriden, CT. The FM and cell antenna cluster is only 4 miles away. I read on the forums that FM towers can be a problem but I don't know how significantly they affect my reception.

Here's my FM Fool Report 










Currently, FM broadcast stations WHCN, WKSS, WPKT, WWYZ, and WZMX, also transmit from West Peak, as do NOAA with a weather broadcast station (WXJ42) on 162.4 MHz, and Amateur Radio station W1ECH with repeaters operating on 2 meters and 440 MHz. (as of February 2, 2009) 


Thank you for your help arxaw and anyone else that may join in.


.


----------



## yatri25




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/21845998
> 
> 
> Well, you only have 2 vhf-hi channels in range. One is 56.1 NM which you could get on a reflectorless SBGH without NARODs. The other is a duplicate NBC channel you may not want anyway. If you do want that NBC, then I would build a reflectorless DBGH with NARODs, otherwise a simple reflectorless SBGH should do you well down to 22.8 NM.


 TV Fool Report 


Hi 300ohm


What length should I cut the NARODs to and how many do you think I need?


I'd like to try and discover the attic's maximum reception which hopefully yields a full selection of channels. Yes I understand vertical is much better. If the attic disappoints I will go to the roof.

So, I'm limited to a horizontal DBGH by the height of the attic. What design and parts do you favor for optimum horizontal combination? Is there an optimized DBGH model with phase lines for horizontal combination?


I am completely enthusiastic about building a DBGH.









Thank you for your help


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> What length should I cut the NARODs to and how many do you think I need?



For RF 10 thru 13, use 28 inch NARODs, measured 1/2" center of wire to center of wire (about 1/4" airspace) above and below the stubs of a SBGH.


> Quote:
> Is there an optimized DBGH model with phase lines for horizontal combination?



No, not yet. Horizontal phasing lines are very tricky to do. Also horizontal stacking gives a bit less gain than vertical stacking. You could use a coupler to combine the antennas in a horizontal stack, but only expect about a 1 to 1.5 db increase in net gain over a single bay after the balun and coupler losses.


I don't think you have much of a chance at RF 11 with any antenna in the attic, so youre really better off just building a SBGH.



> Quote:
> I read on the forums that FM towers can be a problem but I don't know how significantly they affect my reception.



With the exception of RF 11, which has lots of other things going against it also, those FM towers shouldn't significantly affect your reception.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21854832
> 
> 
> I poked around a little to see what I could dig up on the TiVo OTA tuner. There's the usual confusion between signal quality and signal strength but my take is that the TiVo (HD and Premiere) don't handle multipath very well. One discussion is here:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=446075
> 
> 
> One person notes that the TiVo uses the Microtune MT2131 chip set. That's interesting because my DTVPal DVR uses the same chip set and its multipath handling is identical to my Sony TV and the MyGoTV portable I have. I have major multipath issues here and any tuner less than the best is unusable. My Dish Network VIP-622 has a tuner with poor multipath handling and I can't use it.
> 
> 
> The description of the SNR continually jumping around sounds like the equalizer is hunting around for the best setting and never settles on one. You wouldn't want it doing that because you'd lose the picture every time it tried a new setting. Sometimes when my Sony tunes to a channel it'll produce a picture and then retune and put the picture back up. If I watch the diagnostic screen when that happens I see a different SNR displayed on the 2nd tuning, usually better.
> 
> 
> I can only speculate, but perhaps the firmware in the TiVo is having a problem in some situations settling on an equalizer setting. Other devices are using the same chips without this problem.
> 
> 
> I hope my DTVPal DVR never breaks because it sounds like the TiVo would not work for me.
> 
> 
> Chuck



My Dishnet DTV Pal PLUS indeed uses the MT2131 Double-Conversion

Tuner Chip (without any bandpass filter on input), as I verified by popping

off the shield cover and taking a photo.


Other users posted photos of the Dishnet DTV Pal (NOT Plus), which used

the Thomson DTT76809, a conventional Singe-Conversion "tin-can" tuner

with input bandpass filter to reject strong signals away from the desired freq.


So if you don't have the "PLUS" model, you don't have MT2131....


More info re tuners & chips inside CECB Boxes is found in "CECB FEATURES" below.


----------



## JPS591

Building a house in a rural area and looking to mount an antenna either in the attic or on the roof. Planning to have two tvs hooked up initially and possibly a third down the road. I don't have much experience with antennas, amps, and other equipment that might be needed. What are your recommendations? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


Attached is my TV Fool Report.


Thanks in advance!


----------



## Dave Loudin

It is preferred to post a link to your report instead of just a picture.


----------



## arxaw

Dave,

New members cannot post a link until they have made at least five posts.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I don't have much experience with antennas, amps, and other equipment that might be needed. What are your recommendations? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.



I take it that youll want the channels down to ABC, RF 13, NM 12.5 ? For that ABC station, youll need a preamp and and strong uhf/vhf-hi outdoor antenna in order to split the signal to 3 sets. The problem is, the strong channels above 50 NM in that general direction may overload. Youll have to aim for 16 degrees.


If you just wanted the stations in the green above 40 NM, you could probably get by with just a medium gain uhf/vhf-hi antenna in the attic.


----------



## Calaveras

I would only put up an outside antenna if you want to receive that ABC station.


The potential preamp overload problem can be solved by using a Winegard HDP269 and a distribution amp in the house.


That ABC station complicates the antenna situation. If you put up a good combo antenna like the Winegard HD7698P, then you may have trouble with your UHF stations if you point at 16 degrees. That's quite a ways off from 68 degrees especially on UHF. You may need a rotor.


If you're willing to go with separate VHF and UHF antennas you could point the UHF antenna at 68 degrees and then use a lower gain VHF antenna like the Antennacraft Y5713 and point it at about 30 degrees. The main lobe is very broad and there would be almost no gain loss just 14 degrees off pointed.


All this depends on just how weak that ABC station actually is.


Chuck


----------



## tribby2001




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tribby2001* /forum/post/21834997
> 
> All my major network local stations (UHF only and LOS) are transmitting from the same direction (260 degs) about 15 miles from my home.
> 
> 
> I will need to feed 3 TVs over RG6 (3GHz rated) with a splitter. The longest run being about 60ft. Was wondering which Yagi type antenna for the attic of my one story house would you recommend? Would a pre-amp be neccessary?
> 
> 
> As an aside, I was considering the Winegard SquareShooter SS-2000, at about 6 ft above ground level, off a pole mounted satellite dish. But I don't expect to have any multi-path issues here which I understand is what the SS-2000 flat panel is supposedly designed to reject. However, being mounted outdoors and the built-in preamp would likely drive 3 TVs just fine.



UPDATE - I purchased two heavilly discounted open box antennas for my experiment:


Antennas Direct ClearStream1 and DB8 


I was surprised to find how well indoor reception was with the ClearStream1. Overall indoor reception of the weakest locals improved from about 75% for a "perfectly positioned"







RCA 1050 wing to 85% with the Clearstream1 at most room locations. Very satisfactory except for its bulkiness







It certainly was a great improvement over every other indoor antenna I have fiddled (Mohu Leaf, RCA 1050 wing, unk. rabbit ears). I would even consider the larger ClearStream2 indoors if it wasn't for our goal to get these indoor antennas out of way.


Next experiment was to move the Clearstream1 outdoors mounted on the satellite dish pole about 6 feet above ground. Again, reception improved notably. (And it looks good outdoors, like modern garden art







.) The couple of locals that are the weakest improved from about 85% to 95%. One analog station is finally watchable but simply can't compete with digital TV quality.


OK, with these results I was very curious to know what more distant stations I could receive while pointing the ClearStream1 in different directions at ground level. To my surprise I was able to pick up a station roughly 180° opposite from my locals and 44 miles away (WWRS) at about 40% with my locals still coming in and watchable through the backside. Now my curiosity was stoked! What more could I receive with a larger antenna at a greater height? Now that I knew it was possible to receive WWRS at my location I wanted to receive everything possible with a permanent antenna. Having the opportunity to experiment was something I couldn't resist. So enter the DB8.


The DB8, like most high gain antenna, are very directional. They receive best from one direction. What I needed was a bi-directional antenna, one that would receive primarily in two directions (fore and aft) simultaneously. My scheme was to mount the DB8 without the rear reflector screens which is what makes it a one direction or uni-direction antenna. Removing the reflector screens would make it essentially bi-directional. Think a figure eight "8" reception pattern. Albeit, with less gain from either of two directions compared to with the reflectors in place and reception in one direction. A compromise I was willing to accept IF I could mount this contraption out of site and as high as I could without offending the neighborhood.


In a nutshell, what I did was use 1x3 cedar batter boards ($1.79/6ft) to replace the horizontal aluminum cross braces that would normally be used to mount the DB8 with reflectors to a mast. I pre-drilled all holes using the replaced horizontal aluminum cross braces as a template to maintain spacing and to avoid splitting the brittle cedar wood. Using the original bolts and spacers I bolted the two vertical 4 bow-tie elements to the 1x3 batter boards. I then climbed up into the attic and mounted it onto a vertical 2x4 roof strut near the roof peak with two wood wedges. The wedges are used to orient the antenna with a 10° offset from 90° East and 270° West (I.E. 80°E & 260°W). I connected the RG6 coax cable (Belden 1694A with Canare connectors) to the included antenna bal-un and fed it to a 3-way splitter in the basement.


Conclusion - I had a lot of fun! I receive all my locals consistantly at 100% with a dry asphalt roof at all three televisions. The distant station (WWRS) comes in at about 55% and is perfectly watchable. What penalty I will pay when it rains or the snow accumulates remains to be seen. The only small, but not surprising, disappointment was no other distant stations were found. But I now have very good reception with a very good invisable antenna. The ClearStream1 remains mounted at the dish as back-up in case rain or snow becomes a problem. Besides, it looks kewl










Thanks to those who gave advice and who took the time to PM. Good viewing to all!


----------



## tylerSC

The Clearstream 1 makes a very good indoor antenna, not only for UHF, but in my case, VHF as well. I get strong signals for UHF channels at 75 miles. And even the Clearstream 2 can be used indoors as well. And for fringe reception, the CS4 is very good, especially if a more compact size is needed instead of a DB8 or 4228.


----------



## Dave Loudin

I'll add that the Antennas Direct C5 can be an excellent solution for suburban to in-city locations where there are a lot of strong UHFs and a couple of VHFs that require moderate gain to receive. At UHF, the C5 is a pseudo-omni with negative gain. However, when you've got multiple signals with predicted noise margins of 40+, you don't need gain!


----------



## Larry Kenney

A neighbor put up two Clearstream antennas that he found for sale on Craig's List... a C2 and C5 combination... and he's very pleased with the results. He is receiving all stations within 35 miles of here and they're coming in from several different directions from NW, West, South, Southeast and East.


Larry

SF


----------



## ota.dt.man




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/8591196
> 
> 
> The *best approach* is to use a combination of either #1 (Tru-Spec 3GHz) or #2 (Holland GRB-AR) for protection against large (but very rare) surge voltage events *and* a solid state devices (Holland SA-1F) to drain off static electricity on a daily basis.



Since mast-mounted preamps can be damaged by surges, which of the recommended devices in holl_ands quote should be installed before the preamp?


Thank you


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Since mast-mounted preamps can be damaged by surges, which of the recommended devices in holl_ands quote should be installed before the preamp?



Those are normally used after the preamp, before the coax goes into the house. Ive never seen one used before the preamp, but I suppose if the mast is thick and grounded, it could be done.

Keep in mind, with a direct lightning hit, the preamp would be toast anyway.




Re: Enclosure for balun.

In retrospec, the plastic easter egg shell may only last a couple years outdoors. (although some plastic things that don't need to be UV resistant are surprisingly UV resistant)

A more permanent enclosure would be to use one of the grey plastic electrical boxes, sealed at the top with weep holes at the bottom.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ota.dt.man* /forum/post/21882812
> 
> 
> Since mast-mounted preamps can be damaged by surges, which of the recommended devices in holl_ands quote should be installed before the preamp?
> 
> 
> Thank you



Maybe not so much. Modern preamps have built-in surge protection circuitry.


Winegard: "Specialized circuitry featuring fast recovery diode that protects against lightning-caused pulses. "


Tinlee: "Static discharge provided"


Channel Master: "Full lightning and surge protection"


A couple years ago I had a nearby lightning strike that took out the anemometer on my Davis weather station and two ports on a wired router but my preamps were unaffected.


Of course a direct lightning strike will take out the preamps and maybe even the antennas.


Two out of three of the holl_ands links are broken.


Chuck


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/21883479
> 
> 
> Re: Enclosure for balun.
> 
> In retrospec, the plastic easter egg shell may only last a couple years outdoors. (although some plastic things that don't need to be UV resistant are surprisingly UV resistant)



I've found that 2 liter soda bottles (#1 plastic) are essentially UV proof. I used one to cover up a 1.7 GHz dish feed from water because it was almost RF transparent and it turned out to be UV proof as well. No degradation after 5 years of sun exposure. I would think that the green colored bottles would make good UV filters although I have no way to measure the spectral transmission of them. I'm currently using 3 of them to cover up antenna feeds that don't like getting wet. They are easily cut to fit whatever is necessary.


Chuck


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21885611
> 
> 
> ...Of course a direct lightning strike will take out the preamps and maybe even the antennas...



True. And even nearby hits can take out a preamp. The lightning can hit a tree or other nearby object, get into the ground system and fry the preamp or other equipment via that path. You never know what lightning is going to do!


----------



## ota.dt.man




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21885611
> 
> 
> Two out of three of the holl_ands links are broken.
> 
> 
> Chuck



Links repaired.


----------



## OTAhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21885665
> 
> 
> I've found that 2 liter soda bottles (#1 plastic) are essentially UV proof. I used one to cover up a 1.7 GHz dish feed from water because it was almost RF transparent and it turned out to be UV proof as well. No degradation after 5 years of sun exposure. I would think that the green colored bottles would make good UV filters although I have no way to measure the spectral transmission of them. I'm currently using 3 of them to cover up antenna feeds that don't like getting wet. They are easily cut to fit whatever is necessary.
> 
> 
> Chuck



I live in southeast texas. Very hot summers and lots of rain (ok, ok, we did have a dought last year...), but my point is, we usually have 4-5 months of temps well above 90° (the majority above 95° and several days above 100°) along with lots and lots of rain during the year.


My solution to the mix of rain and heat is to stuff the f connector with a good quality dielectric grease to keep the moisture out and then cover the antenna balun with a rubber boot and then wrap the heck out of it with electrical tape which serves not only as an added protection for moisture but also protects the balun from direct sunlight. I also do the same thing for any connections on preamps. The dielectric grease is instrmental to keeping moisture out of the connection.


All I will say is that this has worked well for me. My last installation at my house has been in place since 2007 after I lost my previous rig to Hurricane Ike. Still going strong...


----------



## Mister B




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mister B* /forum/post/21851658
> 
> 
> I recently purchased a Tivo Premiere with a one year commitment and discovered too late that it is known to have a rather poor OTA tuner.
> 
> My TV fool chart is http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...0b86526f12dec2





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21852049
> 
> 
> You're correct about the Tivo tuners. Not very good with multipath.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC* /forum/post/21854676
> 
> 
> The TiVo tuner is not as sensitive as most built in TV tuners, as I have compared to my Samsung using same antenna set up.



I purchased a "still new in box" previous model "Tivo HD" model # TCD652160 on-line. It arrived yesterday and the difference was amazing. I know one can not compare signal strength meters between models, but it was as much as 15 points higher on the Tivo HD model as the Premiere. Most importantly SNR's that had constantly fluctuated between 20 and 30 were quietly holding at 30 or 31. Absolutly no problems with picture break-up or drop-outs.

It is a shame to have to go to so much trouble and purchase a previous model to solve this problem, but it will work for me. I am primarily a "time-shifter" and I believe this unit will serve my needs nicely.


----------



## mp11




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mister B* /forum/post/21851658
> 
> 
> I recently purchased a Tivo Premiere with a one year commitment and discovered too late that it is known to have a rather poor OTA tuner.



You are correct. The last Tivo with a good OTA tumer was the TivoHD. I've had mine for 3 years now, and it performs very well. Even for TV DXing.


----------



## nathanks

Looking for a nice antenna to pick up ABC, NBC, FOX, CBS in my area and distribute to 4 tvs. Here is a link to my results. I've never played with antennas at all so I am walking into this completely blind. I need all the help I can get.


I would prefer to have a small antenna that I could mount in the attic if possible. Any help you can offer is GREATLY appreciated.


URL is :

www . tvfool . com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d3616f0d649ec27


----------



## arxaw

 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...3616f0d649ec27 


Attic results are difficult to predict, due to building materials that can affect reception.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Looking for a nice antenna to pick up ABC, NBC, FOX, CBS in my area and distribute to 4 tvs. Here is a link to my results. I've never played with antennas at all so I am walking into this completely blind. I need all the help I can get.



Ideally, you need a bidirectional wide beam uhf/vhf-hi antenna. There are no commercial antennas of that type. However, you can build your own.

This GH0n3 should suit your needs:
http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/g..._8V5_12u1.html 


Point it South West.


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> Ideally, you need a bidirectional wide beam uhf/vhf-hi antenna. There are no commercial antennas of that type.



Our V10 is pretty close to that. Our C2v with the reflector removed certainly is. Both are relatively short-medium under this scenario range.


Almost any panel antenna can have its reflector removed to make the UHF reception bidirectional. Adding a simple VHF dipole will make a simple VHF bi-directional antenna.


----------



## ota.dt.man




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21885611
> 
> 
> Two out of three of the holl_ands links are broken.
> 
> 
> Chuck



Links repaired & model #s added:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/8591196
> 
> 
> The *best approach* is to use a combination of either #1 (Tru-Spec 3GHz) or #2 (Holland GRB-AR) for protection against large (but very rare) surge voltage events *and* a solid state devices (Holland SA-1F) to drain off static electricity on a daily basis.


----------



## ota.dt.man




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/21883479
> 
> 
> Those are normally used after the preamp, before the coax goes into the house. Ive never seen one used before the preamp, but I suppose if the mast is thick and grounded, it could be done.
> 
> Keep in mind, with a direct lightning hit, the preamp would be toast anyway.



Understood. If one were to add surge protection before the preamp, which of holl_ands recommended device(s) would be best suited for this location? Agreed, with a direct hit, all bets are off.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/21883479
> 
> 
> Re: Enclosure for balun.
> 
> A more permanent enclosure would be to use one of the grey plastic electrical boxes, sealed at the top with weep holes at the bottom.



Sounds great - Thank you.


----------



## ota.dt.man




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21885611
> 
> 
> Maybe not so much. Modern preamps have built-in surge protection circuitry.
> 
> 
> Winegard: "Specialized circuitry featuring fast recovery diode that protects against lightning-caused pulses. "
> 
> 
> Tinlee: "Static discharge provided"
> 
> 
> Channel Master: "Full lightning and surge protection"
> 
> 
> Chuck



Agreed, the major preamp brands do offer some degree of surge protection. But they do not provide detailed descriptions with specs for the surge protection.


Also, there are a few brands of ultra-low nosie amps (ULNA) that have little or no surge protection in order to achieve ultra low-noise levels.


----------



## holl_ands

*Re Over-voltage Surge Protection:*


I fixed the two missing links in my original Oct 2006 post:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8591196 

they are replaced by:
http://www.nottltd.com/lightning.html [NOTE STATIC DISSIPATION DEVICES.]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varistor 
http://www.teal.com/newsletter/AppsNote11.pdf 

I also added the following, additional overview:
http://www.lightningman.com.au/surge_technologies.html 


The protected voltage range is very high for most of these devices, providing minimal

benefit on the input of a Preamp. The only device with a fairly low protected voltage

range is the Holland SA-1F SiDACtor...and similar devices...but NOT MOV's since they

slowly degrade over time.


It might help to ALSO ensure that there is a LEAKAGE path from the antenna's

active element(s) to the nearest ground (e.g. mast, coax shield or ground wire).

This could be as simple as 10 K-ohm, 1W resistor(s) connected to balun feedpoint(s),

with a short wire to a nearby ground point. This will drain away static electricity....


Nearby Static Dissipation Devices (see new link above) might also be of interest....


----------



## Calaveras

Maybe we need a little perspective on this. No manufacturer is going to put expensive multiple levels of surge protection into a device that sells in the range of $40. Even expensive preamps are mostly under $100. Some protection is better than none. I'm sure some preamps get zapped every year but most people will never have that experience. If the cost to insure is high compared to the value of what is being insured, then don't insure.










I've gone to a lot of trouble to get the lowest system noise figure possible and I'm not going to add devices that degrade that even 1 dB. I'll replace the preamps if they get zapped.


Chuck


----------



## See The Light

*Clear Cast Indoor Antenna ? ?*


The other day, there was a full page add in the Dallas Morning News for the Clear Cast indoor antenna. $47.00.


Does anyone have one ?


Are they any good ? ?


The add seemed to prey upon the gullible in that the add emphasized 935 free _shows_ a _year_. And they gave a list of zip codes that were eligible ----- OTA digital TV is available to most zip codes anyway !!!


The add is selling itself as a "magic box" that you you use instead of cable or satellite to get all these "free channels".


But really, all it is, is an antenna. For $47....


So is it any better or worse than anything else out there ???


----------



## 300ohm

You mean this one ?

http://stopthecap.com/2011/12/19/hyp...bills-forever/ 

http://cameradigitalprinter.com/clea...al-x1-antenna/ 



> Quote:
> emphasized 935 free shows a year



Heh, yeah, SHOWS, not channels. So if you get 30 digital channels, and each channel has say 20 shows over a 24 hour period, that's 600 shows per day. So figure half the shows get cancelled in mid-season, so 900 or so shows a year isn't a terrible estimate.


Full page ads do cost a lot of money though.










Since there are no gain specs posted I can find, that says a lot.


----------



## tylerSC

That's a lot of marketing hype for a basic bow tie antenna placed inside a thin layer of plastic that can be hung from a window. The basic Radioshack version should work just as well. And the best performing flat panel antenna reportedly is the Mohu Leaf, which can also be hung from a window for about the same price as the Clear Cast.


----------



## retiredengineer

I remember the same marketing hype back in the analog TV days where it was claimed the wiring in your house could be used to give you crystal clear ghost free TV reception. Just plug this device into the power outlet and hook it up to your TV. Inside was just a small capacitor soldered inside.


BTW a very recent review says the amplified Mohu Leaf is even better.


----------



## Calaveras

I think I saw that magic antenna in the fairytale land portion of Once Upon a Time.


----------



## dattier

I saw the ad in Parade today.  It lists out, state by state, every two-digit zip code prefix whose residents qualified for the offer.  Of course, it includes all fifty states and DC, and every two-digit zip code prefix in use in that state.  Yet they expect readers to be so gullible that when they find their state and the first two digits of their zip they'll consider themselves lucky to be eligible for an unbelievable opportunity.


----------



## ota.dt.man




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/21895689
> 
> *Re Over-voltage Surge Protection:*
> 
> 
> I fixed the two missing links in my original Oct 2006 post:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=381623
> 
> they are replaced by:
> http://www.nottltd.com/article.html [NOTE STATIC DISSIPATION DEVICES.]
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varistor
> http://www.teal.com/newsletter/AppsNote11.pdf
> 
> I also added the following, additional overview:
> http://www.lightningman.com.au/surge_technologies.html
> 
> 
> The protected voltage range is very high for most of these devices, providing minimal
> 
> benefit on the input of a Preamp. The only device with a fairly low protected voltage
> 
> range is the Holland SA-1F SiDACtor...and similar devices...but NOT MOV's since they
> 
> slowly degrade over time.
> 
> 
> It might help to ALSO ensure that there is a LEAKAGE path from the antenna's
> 
> active element(s) to the nearest ground (e.g. mast, coax shield or ground wire).
> 
> This could be as simple as 10 K-ohm, 1W resistor(s) connected to balun feedpoint(s),
> 
> with a short wire to a nearby ground point. This will drain away static electricity....
> 
> 
> Nearby Static Dissipation Devices (see new link above) might also be of interest....



Thanks for all the links. They should keep me busy. (Note this one link: http://www.nottltd.com/article.html doesn't work.)


Thanks also for the Holland SA-1F and 10 K-ohm, 1W resistor recommendations. Sounds like a plan!


----------



## ota.dt.man




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21896527
> 
> 
> Maybe we need a little perspective on this. No manufacturer is going to put expensive multiple levels of surge protection into a device that sells in the range of $40. Even expensive preamps are mostly under $100. Some protection is better than none. I'm sure some preamps get zapped every year but most people will never have that experience. If the cost to insure is high compared to the value of what is being insured, then don't insure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've gone to a lot of trouble to get the lowest system noise figure possible and I'm not going to add devices that degrade that even 1 dB. I'll replace the preamps if they get zapped.
> 
> 
> Chuck



I'm not suggesting manufacturers of cost-effective preamps add "_expensive multiple levels of surge protection_."



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21896527
> 
> 
> Some protection is better than none. I'm sure some preamps get zapped every year but most people will never have that experience. If the cost to insure is high compared to the value of what is being insured, then don't insure.



- Agreed.


My original post was for only those who may wish to add more protection to their current preamp - perhaps due to frequent lightning in their area.


----------



## holl_ands

THIS web-link IS currently active: http://www.nottltd.com/lightning.html 


I also fixed the link to my original 5Oct2006 post:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8591196


----------



## holl_ands

YIKES!!!! Without discount coupon (good luck finding one after 48-hrs), Clear Cast Digital Antenna is $68

(plus optional $5 for 2-year warranty) and $9.95 shipping, for a total of $77.95 or $82.95:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...5&d=1334498965 
https://www.clear-cast.com 

No specs...other than claiming a wildly optimistic 50-mile range.....


Given Dr Argy Petros's (aka Chatzipetros) background, it might be something other than a simple Bowtie:
http://www.thinkwireless.com/argypetros.html


----------



## 300ohm

And they didn't even spring for UV resistant plastic at that price.


----------



## OTAhead

And the ad appears in the Houston Chronicle today...


I would think that the ad wound constitute false advertising. It lists "77" as one of the Zip prefixes (the Beaumont/Port Arthur DMA). It shold be noted that we have: no ION affiliate, no THIS TV affiliate, no PBS affiliate, no Univision, no Telemundo, no 24/7 weather, Universal, COOL TV, Country, nor HSN.


I think there was a similar "deal" for converter boxes in the papers leading up to the transition...


The ad is misleading, at best.


----------



## newbo1

Hi typical newbie q:


I am planning to go OTA HDTV, and can install an outdoor antenna 40 ft AGL if necessary (but no attic). I dont need every last channel, but good reception for 'usual' (eg PBS, NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX, etc) is a must. What sort of antenna would you recommend?


Here is my TV signal info per TVFOOL (sorry cannot post full URL yet)
tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d3616f91581944c 


thanks!


----------



## Larry Kenney

Newbo1...


Hey, my family used to live in your area near Washington Street.


You've got lots of strong signals available to you there. You should be able to get all of the stations shown in the green area of your TVFool report with a small antenna. A cheap indoor antenna from Radio Shack would probably give you most of them, but then people moving around near the antenna might cause reflections and break up, so an outdoor antenna would be better.


I would recommend something like the RCA ANT751:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...u=044476064524 

It should work just fine for you and it's good for both VHF and UHF stations.


Larry

SF

(formerly from NH)


----------



## arxaw

+1 on the ANT751. No need to go 40' in the air. Just install it using the included (sat dish style) J-mount and aim it to the West. Then run a scan on your TV for digital antenna channels.

Also available here with free shipping:
http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751R-Ou...B5C/ref=sr_1_1 


If needed, your signals are strong enough to split to more than one TV, without using a distribution amp.


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: In San Diego, CA, our PARADE didn't even carry the add....


----------



## newbo1

Larry and Arxaw:

Thanks much. Thats v helpful! Ordered.


----------



## See The Light

My antenna is in the attic of my flat roof home.


I went up in the attic yesterday afternoon when it was 72°F and sunny outside. I was shocked that the temperature difference --- it was *106°F* in that attic, a difference of 34 degrees from the outside temperature ! !


So, I waited until this morning, before 8am, when the outside temp. was 55°F, and I was nicely surprsied to find the temperture in the attic only 60°F, just a 5 degree difference.


The Moral of the Story is, if you need to go into your attic to adjust an antenna (or for any other reason...) the only part of the day when temperature is not oppressive, is the early morning hours.


I just did not realize until yesterday, that the temperature difference in the daytime, on a Spring afternoon, would be 34 degrees !!


----------



## 300ohm

Yep. And temps of over 150F degrees are not uncommon in the summer. Thats why good attic ventilation and a powered attic fan can save a lot on A/C cooling costs.


----------



## retiredengineer

Another reason to keep the attic cool is that preamplifiers don't enjoy working in hot environments. Causes early failure.


----------



## zebrafetish2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/21940844
> 
> 
> Yep. And temps of over 150F degrees are not uncommon in the summer. Thats why good attic ventilation and a powered attic fan can save a lot on A/C cooling costs.



Indeed. In fact, if you have windows in the attic, it's probably wise to keep a fan going on low all the time in June/July/August and in my case, keep a window on the far side of the attic cracked open as well to allow for some ventilation.


I put the fan in "backwards" and suck the air across the room. This is good when it's raining because I'm less likely to get a lot of water in the partially finished part of my attic.


----------



## OTAhead

What I have done is install the pre-amps/distribution amps in the central air closet. I run the coax through the attic, but drop it down and make all my connections in the a/c closet, then make my runs to the different rooms. The closet is usually just about as cool as the house.


----------



## stevesr0

I just posted on the EV thread on this forum, seeking advice/recommendation on an antenna to get OTA DHDTV reception to my home.


Then I saw this thread and after reading a bit, noted that people posted such requests to this thread also.


Is it considered more appropriate to post these requests to this thread or the EV one?


Thanks in advance.


Steve


----------



## 300ohm

Post here and post your TVFool image.


----------



## fireflimoon

Hi,


Been reading this forum - I like it! Wondering if anyone has any feedback regarding masts.

I don't want to install a tower at a location yet - maybe in the future but a mast might be the ticket. Wanted to check on people's experiences wit them. I'm at post 485 or thereabouts so I apologize if this has been covered ...

I am thinking of getting a mast (AN CM1640) to install at a site with this tvfool:


Ok, wasn't able to post my tvfool yet (only 1st post)


The problem is that the house is small and not suitable to put an antenna on it because of nearby hydro electric lines and trees surrounding the house.


But there are a few other locations where I could put a mast that would have a clear shot through openings in the tree walls. The distance from the mast location could vary from about 120 feet to 50 from the entrance to the house.


tvfool doesn't indicate much of a difference for the signal strength when the height is modified for 20, 30 or 40 feet so I am wondering how much I can rely on those figures.


Any opinions on masts - I only mentioned the channel master becase it is available / well known? I'd like to be able to move the location of the mast from place to place on occaision. Would this be feasible?


----------



## fireflimoon

...


This is the tvfool - I know it's a crapshoot but want to try and get Mount Mansfield channels (Fox, PBS, CBS, NBC)


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fireflimoon* /forum/post/21960765
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> This is the tvfool - I know it's a crapshoot but want to try and get Mount Mansfield channels (Fox, PBS, CBS, NBC)



It's going to be difficult to get those. At 112 miles and a 2 edge path I can virtually guarantee that there will be a large variation in signal strength.

Even if you do receive them it won't be 100% of the time. Your best chance will be a very good UHF antenna and mount it clear of the local ground clutter; i.e. trees and buildings. Once you've done that a little change in height isn't going to make a difference in most cases. Since you don't have any really strong TV stations you should be able to use a preamp. Watch out for any local FM stations.


Rohn is the best known name in towers and masts. They've made them for at least 50 years. Used to be you could buy them at Radio Shack or any electronic store that sold antennas and they were cheap. Now they're fairly expensive plus there's expensive shipping.


Chuck


----------



## fireflimoon

Hey, Thanks Calaveras


If I get lucky, I'll post...


----------



## rabbit73

*fireflimoon*:


Welcome to the forum.


I agree, it will be difficult.


Your best chance will be with these:

WCAX CBS CH22 -78.0 dBm NM 12.8 dB

WPTZ NBC CH14 -83.7 dBm NM 7.1 dB

WETK PBS CH32 -87.8 dBm NM 3.0 dB


These will be more difficult:

WFFF Fox CH43 -91.3 dBm NM -0.5 dB

WVNY ABC CH13 -94.9 dBm NM -4.1 dB


WVNY will be especially difficult because you will need a high gain VHF antenna for it, and you will have to deal with co-channel interference from CKTM that is also on CH13.


DHC member *balm* has been trying all kinds of antennas to get reliable reception of WVNY.
www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=128429


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> But there are a few other locations where I could put a mast that would have a clear shot through openings in the tree walls. The distance from the mast location could vary from about 120 feet to 50 from the entrance to the house.



Thats where I would put the mast then. Of course, youll need a quality preamp to make up for the coax losses.


----------



## OTAhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/21961718
> 
> 
> Thats where I would put the mast then. Of course, youll need a quality preamp to make up for the coax losses.



The rule of thumb that I follow is 1 dB loss for every 18 feet (6 meters +/-) of coax and every 3 dB of loss is half your signal...


----------



## givmedew

Hi, I am about to get an antenna and tuner for the first time ever because we just can't afford to pay for cable anymore plus Comcast has finally come off the high horse and offered $30 for 15mbit Internet and although I can't stand them for good reasons they are my only choice for true high speed at this address. Right now I'm using clear for only $20/m unlimited plus every couple months I get a free month because of some horrible outage but that's just it I can't stand these daily/weekly outages and that I can barely watch Netflix on the lowest setting because of the throttling.


Anyways my questions are this can anyone recommend to me the following 4 things


an inexpensive tuner preferably with excellent tuning ability no more than $60 hd would be nice but a great tuner is more important and if hd component is preferred since I'm out of hdmi on my receiver but it has up conversion so it will convert the signal to


3 antenna of different types an indoor antenna, an outdoor omni and a very compact outdoor directional. Also what I may expect in differences


I am on the 2nd story in my line of site is a 2 story house but I seem to be above it antenna web says I am 7 to 8 miles from a mess of channels in Chicago I used a compass to give me an idea of where and it looks like no problem to put the antenna on my balcony railing and point it in that direction.


Again price is important I'd like to stay below $60.


But.... Being realistic my max budget would be $200 shipped with all mounting hardware. Summitscource or Fry's electronics would be the places I prefer. I hate Fry's customer service which is why I quit as a manager but I am willing to purchase from them because of how close they are and the prices.


Thanks


----------



## fireflimoon

Thanks for the tips...


Which preamp would you suggest for the location? One antenna for both UHF and VHF..


Thanks again for the help


----------



## fireflimoon

givmedew



not sure if you are only asking about tv tuners ... I have a hauppauge hvr 1950 which is ok... but has analog as well as atsc/cable so you may not want that


something easy to build and quasi omnidirectional is a stealth hawk antenna. it may work for you seeing that the channels are close by. I am mentioning it because I had some luck with it and all you need is a little length of aluminum or copper and an hour to build it when you have the balun and coax ready. I pasted mine in the window and it picked up many channels at my location...


----------



## arxaw

givmedew,

TVs sold in the last few years all have built in digital OTA tuners. How old is yours? You may not need a tuner.


For antenna suggestions, please post a link to your TVFool results for your specific address, or save the image of it and attach that to a post. Your address will not display.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fireflimoon* /forum/post/21962892
> 
> 
> Which preamp would you suggest for the location?



If they still have them, get an old model of the CM7777 VHF/UHF preamp. AFAIK, they are still available here. I have tried the new model in a weak signal situation and it can't hold a candle to the performance of the older model.


They're easy to tell apart. The old model has two inputs and the new one only has a single combo input. (The old model ships with the default input as "combo," which can be changed inside the amp via a switch)


----------



## fireflimoon

Arxaw,


If I can't get one of those "older" versions of the 7777, I was thinking of the next alternative(s). The Wingard AP8780 (high amplication figures) and the CPA19 (because of the low noise figure) seemed possible.


Do you (or anyone else) have any thoughts or experience with these.


Thanks for your replies...


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fireflimoon* /forum/post/21963609
> 
> 
> Arxaw,
> 
> 
> If I can't get one of those "older" versions of the 7777, I was thinking of the next alternative(s). The Wingard AP8780 (high amplication figures) and the CPA19 (because of the low noise figure) seemed possible.
> 
> 
> Do you (or anyone else) have any thoughts or experience with these.
> 
> 
> Thanks for your replies...



You might be better off with the AP 8700 if your total coax run doesn't exceed 150'. You can also use RG11 for the main run of coax to cut down on the loss a little. You need to be careful with high gain preamps because they can get overloaded. Use just enough gain to do the job.


Chuck


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21963364
> 
> 
> I have tried the new model in a weak signal situation and it can't hold a candle to the performance of the older model.



It would be nice to be able to quantify this but I can't find any specs on the new versions besides gain. Something must be terribly wrong to be as bad as you describe. Maybe a call to CM would shed some light on this.


Chuck


Edit: I found the noise figure for the new CM preamps - 2.8 dB. That's 0.8 dB worse on the UHF than the old CM7777 and the same on VHF. There's also 4 dB more gain on UHF. Those changes alone would not be noticeable to anyone under real life reception conditions. There must be another issue. Overload from an out-of-band signal that's not being rejected by the new model? It would be interesting to figure out what's going on. Shame on CM for marketing these as "improved" when they seem to be only replacements for the old models.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21963657
> 
> 
> ...Edit: I found the noise figure for the new CM preamps - 2.8 dB. That's 0.8 dB worse on the UHF than the old CM7777 and the same on VHF. There's also 4 dB more gain on UHF. Those changes alone would not be noticeable to anyone under real life reception conditions. There must be another issue. Overload from an out-of-band signal that's not being rejected by the new model?



My results are strictly anectdotal, but I know it wasn't overload in this particular case, as you can see from her TVFool (!):









The lady had ordered a "new" 7777 and a 4221HD, which was working in another similar (_deep_ valley) reception situation. I installed it and got nothing. I had an old model 7777 with me and swapped it out and got both available channels. It's quite possible her 7777 was defective, but don't know. (She sent it back for a refund). All I know is in this difficult reception situation, it didn't work, and I'm not recommending new CM preamps to anyone.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21963833
> 
> 
> I had an old model 7777 with me and swapped it out and got both available channels. It's quite possible her 7777 was defective, but don't know. (She sent it back for a refund). All I know is in this difficult reception situation, it didn't work, and I'm not recommending new CM preamps to anyone.



Sounds like it was defective. I did see a number of reports from people who had the new one and it was working for them. I noticed the new ones are more expensive.


Chuck


----------



## OTAhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21966558
> 
> 
> Sounds like it was defective. I did see a number of reports from people who had the new one and it was working for them. I noticed the new ones are more expensive.
> 
> 
> Chuck



I looked at the link to Summit for the old style, and then checked Amazon for the new ones, and found Amazon about $3-$4 cheaper, iirc...


----------



## givmedew




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21963350
> 
> 
> givmedew,
> 
> TVs sold in the last few years all have built in digital OTA tuners. How old is yours? You may not need a tuner.
> 
> 
> For antenna suggestions, please post a link to your TVFool results for your specific address, or save the image of it and attach that to a post. Your address will not display.



I bought a Hitatchi Director series in 2009 got it for a steal at best buy because they where getting rid of them I bought the very last display 42" for $300 but they where out of stock of the add on unit that they normally packaged the thing with that had a tuner and source selector in it.


So what I am left with is truly a monitor in all senses. It has a single HDMI and VGA imput that is all so I do have to buy a tuner unfortunately.


----------



## givmedew

Someone requested that I post the info from TV fool for recommendations on an antenna.


My results 




I have windows somewhat face that direction they are about 45 degrees in the wrong direction or preferably I would like to mount it outside on my balcony attached to the iron railing this would allow me to point the antenna in the exact direction. Also since basically all the channels come from the same direction I really see no need to go with an omni if I mount it outside.


The most important thing is size and looks it must be small and look decent a huge pointy wire arrow structure isn't going to cut it. I have seen some antennas that look like small sattalite dishes.


I like this http://www.summitsource.com/digiwave...8-p-10106.html 


I also like this
http://www.summitsource.com/antennac...le-p-6157.html 



And finally this one http://www.summitsource.com/winegard...em-p-6572.html


----------



## stevesr0

As suggested, I am reposting this here from EV's thread.


I purchased and installed a Monoprice 4730 indoor/outdoor DHTV antenna.


After installing it about 3 feet above the TV upstairs, I found that the channels were frequently pixelating, freezing or going to no signal message.


With a friend, I tried the antenna out of doors (through a bedroom window) on the same floor and the reception was better but still inadequate.


I contacted Monoprice tech support who told me that their antennas are only for "green" and "yellow" channels. Since antennaweb tells me that my channels are red, blue and purple, if they are correct, I need a more "powerful" antenna.


I found this site and thread where people are kind enough to offer advice, so I am submitting my link to tvfool with a request for advice on a suitable antenna and placement.


My house is surrounded by trees which in all directions are higher than the roof (by more than 20 feet). The area is hilly, so I doubt that any transmitter is in direct line of sight.


My link is http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7fcf99c735cd96 .


Thanks is advance for any assistance/advice.


Steve


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *givmedew* /forum/post/21969286
> 
> 
> Someone requested that I post the info from TV fool for recommendations on an antenna.
> 
> My results
> 
> 
> I have windows somewhat face that direction they are about 45 degrees in the wrong direction or preferably I would like to mount it outside on my balcony attached to the iron railing this would allow me to point the antenna in the exact direction. Also since basically all the channels come from the same direction I really see no need to go with an omni if I mount it outside.
> 
> 
> The most important thing is size and looks it must be small and look decent a huge pointy wire arrow structure isn't going to cut it. I have seen some antennas that look like small satellite dishes.
> 
> 
> I like this http://www.summitsource.com/digiwave...8-p-10106.html
> 
> 
> I also like this
> http://www.summitsource.com/antennac...le-p-6157.html
> 
> 
> And finally this one http://www.summitsource.com/winegard...em-p-6572.html



You should NOT use any of those AMPLIFIED antenna....the very strong

signals will overload the system, possibly blocking reception on some

channels. Have you tried a simple non-amplified VHF-Rabbit-Ears+UHF-Loop????


Nearly any small, non-amplified antenna should do the job if mounted outdoors.


Many supposedly "UHF-only" antennas should be adequate to receive your

very strong VHF channels, but if you need more gain, a separate

Folded Dipole antenna (e.g. Rabbit-Ears without the Loop) could be added.


Winegard SS-1000 is non-amplified version of SS-2000 Square-Shooter.

Winegard also makes the non-amplified GS-1100 "Batwing", which should

be better for VHF at the expense of UHF performance.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *givmedew* /forum/post/21969286
> 
> 
> Someone requested that I post the info from TV fool for recommendations on an antenna.
> 
> 
> My results



No. No. No. No amplified antenna at your location. All you need is something like an ANT751 unamp'd antenna.


----------



## arxaw

stevesr0,

Your TVFool URL is bad. Please repost it.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Repaired TVFool for stevesR0: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...7fcf99c735cd96


----------



## Smoke_signal

I just picked this up at Lowe's for $6.54 while shopping for F-connectors. It's an Audiovox "RCA in-line F-connector for RG6 coax" DT60CFTR (i.e. an RG6 cable splice kit.) All you need is an ordinary pair of pliers to squeeze the locking, shield-piercing fingers to install the connector. You don't even need to strip the insulation from the cable ends, just a clean cut, and o-rings keep water out. Neat!!!


I've had numerous failures with a splice in my 215 ft outdoor RG6 cable using 2 male F-connectors and an inline barrel connector. I haven't installed the DT60CFTR yet, but this sure looks like the solution to my cable splicing problems! It's also available from numerous websites in addition to Lowe's.


----------



## OTAhead

I saw those at Lowe's the other day (didn't buy them though) and wondered how qell they might work... If you can give them a test run, I sure would be interested in how well they do. I am especially interested in how well the "O" rings hold up in hot conditions. Heat will make cheap "O" rings get hard and brittle and cause them to lose their sealing ability. They look nice though. I hope they are a good quality product and not some cheaply made Chinese crud.


----------



## arxaw

It still might be a good idea to put a dab of dielectric grease in the connectors before screwing it together.


----------



## arxaw

stevesr0,

On your TVFool report, all of the stations that list "LOS" are Line Of Sight from your address. For your major networks, a Winegard 7694P should work well, but if you cannot find a sweet spot to aim it, you may need a rotor, since the transmitters are not all in the same direction.


----------



## OTAhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21974393
> 
> 
> It still might be a good idea to put a dab of dielectric grease in the connectors before screwing it together.



I absolutely agree. Di-electric grease is a must in my opinion for all outdoor coax connections...


----------



## givmedew




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/21969645
> 
> 
> You should NOT use any of those AMPLIFIED antenna....the very strong
> 
> signals will overload the system, possibly blocking reception on some
> 
> channels. Have you tried a simple non-amplified VHF-Rabbit-Ears+UHF-Loop????
> 
> 
> Nearly any small, non-amplified antenna should do the job if mounted outdoors.
> 
> 
> Many supposedly "UHF-only" antennas should be adequate to receive your
> 
> very strong VHF channels, but if you need more gain, a separate
> 
> Folded Dipole antenna (e.g. Rabbit-Ears without the Loop) could be added.
> 
> 
> Winegard SS-1000 is non-amplified version of SS-2000 Square-Shooter.
> 
> Winegard also makes the non-amplified GS-1100 "Batwing", which should
> 
> be better for VHF at the expense of UHF performance.



I think I really like the square shooter. It is rather expensive but the size is nice. Being that it isn't designed for VHF what am I really loosing? I see that Abc and CBS are both on UHF and VHF channels is there a difference between the UHF and VHF version? Also what are the channels below VHF considered? Will I have any problem picking up those?


I also saw THIS it is a trek indoor model that is VHF and UHF which would I be better off with. The building is brick which is why I was originally going for outdoor. I could aim this through the sliding glass door though but still not sure which would be better. The gs1100 batwing is to wide to put outside on my balcony.


Anyone know of any other small outdoor antenna's preferably less than 30" in any direction.


----------



## givmedew

Also I am looking for ota tuner box as well and am having a very hard time finding one that only has what I need. I just want a tuner that handles the antenna and is capable of surround sound and HD. Mostly I am finding converter boxes that output to composite or rf or I am finding combo boxes that have qam and ota or I am finding PC related stuff.


Anyone have a good recommendation for an affordable (less than $100) box that is HD


I think this might be what I am looking for but am unsure http://www.summitsource.com/centroni...ufacturers_id= 


But that isn't available anymore and links to one that is $120 and supports qam


----------



## arxaw

Recommendations for "small" antennas are not often found on this board, mainly because no one wants to suggest something that may not work well.


And it's a crap shoot to see if they will work at all. Just buy from places that allow returns.


For an HD tuner/STB, see the STB synopsis thread here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=179095


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *OTAhead* /forum/post/21966903
> 
> 
> I looked at the link to Summit for the old style, and then checked Amazon for the new ones, and found Amazon about $3-$4 cheaper, iirc...



Price for the old CM7777 at Solid Signal - $48.99

Price for new CM7777 at Amazon - $58.55

Price for old CM7777 at Summit Source - $63.70


Seems to me that Summit Source thinks they can get a premium price for the remaining stock of the old version. Maybe they can.


Chuck


----------



## SolidSignal

Thanks for the shout-out. Much appreciated.


----------



## arxaw

Is the old style 7777 still available at SS? The web site says "completely re-engineered and updated"....


----------



## SolidSignal

Unfortunately not. But we're expecting some changes at Channel Master in the coming months.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21975299
> 
> 
> ...Seems to me that Summit Source thinks they can get a premium price for the remaining stock of the old version. Maybe they can.



They can. At least if some eBay prices are any indication of demand for the old dual-input model.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *givmedew* /forum/post/21974910
> 
> 
> I think I really like the square shooter. It is rather expensive but the size is nice. Being that it isn't designed for VHF what am I really loosing? I see that Abc and CBS are both on UHF and VHF channels is there a difference between the UHF and VHF version? Also what are the channels below VHF considered? Will I have any problem picking up those?
> 
> 
> I also saw THIS it is a trek indoor model that is VHF and UHF which would I be better off with. The building is brick which is why I was originally going for outdoor. I could aim this through the sliding glass door though but still not sure which would be better. The gs1100 batwing is to wide to put outside on my balcony.
> 
> 
> Anyone know of any other small outdoor antenna's preferably less than 30" in any direction.



Terk HDTV-LP (aka Winegard SS-3000) is not recommended, it's AMPLIFIED.


One of the best SMALL antennas is the 35"x35" RCA ANT-751, but it's a

"pointy wire arrow structure" that may be as difficult to mount as SS-1000 unless

you use a stand-along pole mount to avoid drilling into the balcony structure:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1234962 


Since you have very strong signals, you might also consider the Winegard

FV-HD30 FreeVision antenna....although not very powerful, it is SMALL:
http://www.winegard.com/freevision/index.php 


BTW: It is very difficult to PREDICT performance for apt. buildings due to

all of the METAL in the walls and floors...and possibility of blockage and

multipath reflections from surrounding buildings.....


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I have windows somewhat face that direction they are about 45 degrees in the wrong direction or preferably I would like to mount it outside on my balcony attached to the iron railing this would allow me to point the antenna in the exact direction. Also since basically all the channels come from the same direction I really see no need to go with an omni if I mount it outside.
> 
> 
> The most important thing is size and looks it must be small and look decent a huge pointy wire arrow structure isn't going to cut it. I have seen some antennas that look like small sattalite dishes.



If you want to DIY, a simple GH0n here http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/g..._5V9_10u0.html would do. Because your signals are so strong, the old model reflectorless GH with out NARODS would do it too.


You would want to keep any antenna away from a metal railing by about 4 inches. You could also get some plastic ivy to cover up the antenna by making it look like a trellis.


----------



## stevesr0

arxaw,


Thanks for recommendation.


I am open to roof install if that is necessary, but would prefer an attic installation for simplicity, ease of maintenance and cost.


The longer distance to tv from roof would likely necessitate a preamp or amplifier, as well as a mount, a rotor and [in my case] hiring an installer to do it for me.


I assume that use of a rotor would generally not work if I installed the antenna in my attic, because of limited attic space.


For an attic install, is there a multidirection UHF/VHF HD antenna that you would recommend?


Thanks for your assistance.


Steve


----------



## OTAhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21975299
> 
> 
> Price for the old CM7777 at Solid Signal - $48.99
> 
> Price for new CM7777 at Amazon - $58.55
> 
> Price for old CM7777 at Summit Source - $63.70
> 
> 
> Seems to me that Summit Source thinks they can get a premium price for the remaining stock of the old version. Maybe they can.
> 
> 
> Chuck





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/21976076
> 
> 
> Is the old style 7777 still available at SS? The web site says "completely re-engineered and updated"....



But since we're on the subject og the CM 7777, I have a question... I have very successfully installed the old style 7777 connected to a FM antenna to drive a Sangean HD radio reciever. Excellent results, and I am VERY HAPPY with the performance. What I did was separate the UHF from the VHF (reset the switch from "combined" to "separate"). Set the FM trap to "out" of course , and connected a short piece of coax to the UHF input port (about 4" long) with the rubber boot taped to the coax at the bottom, di-electric grease in the connector, and a small bead of silicone sealer smeared on the top of the boot to seal and isolate the UHF input side. I then dressed the VHF side in a similar fashion, but of course ran the coax on into the house connecting to the receiver.


My question is, if using the new style with no option to separate out all the UHF gain coming down the coax, will this have any effect on the FM reception? Or will there be no negative or minimal effect on the FM reception of either analog or digital signals?


I thank you for indulging me this question.


----------



## Smoke_signal




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *OTAhead* /forum/post/21974378
> 
> 
> I saw those at Lowe's the other day (didn't buy them though) and wondered how qell they might work... If you can give them a test run, I sure would be interested in how well they do. I am especially interested in how well the "O" rings hold up in hot conditions. Heat will make cheap "O" rings get hard and brittle and cause them to lose their sealing ability. They look nice though. I hope they are a good quality product and not some cheaply made Chinese crud.



I installed the Audiovox DT60CFTR "RCA in-line F-connector for RG6 coax" splice kit in my 215 ft outdoor cable Wednesday. Installation was easy, but you should note the points on the fingers scrape the coax insulation, so you need to "twist" the connector a few turns to "screw" it onto the end of the cable. I doesn't just "slide" on (at least the first time you push it onto the cable end.) It is made in China, but it is a quality, precision machined product that feels very solid when in place.


After I installed the splice, I lost continuity and the antenna signal a couple of times during the first hour. You should check for good shield contact with the piercing finger points by tugging on the cable while viewing the signal when you install it. You can unscrew the caps and resqueeze the fingers with pliers if contact is intermittent. After I tugged on the cable at the connector, the problem appears to have gone away. I will tug on it more later today to make sure the contact is solid. Otherwise, it looks like this product will do the job very well. If I make future splices, the job should go much faster and without problems.


----------



## OTAhead

Thank you for the update. I might buy a couple of these to put in my "goodies box" in case I ever run across a need for them.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stevesr0* /forum/post/21977468
> 
> 
> ...For an attic install, is there a multidirection UHF/VHF HD antenna that you would recommend?



If you mean an omnidirectional antenna; no.


The antenna I suggested, if installed outdoors and aimed to the South will likely get all your major channels of interest, including the stronger ones the antenna is not directly aimed at. It _may_ work in the attic, depending on building materials and location. Attic installs are impossible to predict. Worth a try, though.


For long coax runs, an HDP269 high input preamp may help. But only add one if you experience weak signals on some of your channels.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *OTAhead* /forum/post/21977737
> 
> 
> But since we're on the subject og the CM 7777, I have a question... I have very successfully installed the old style 7777 connected to a FM antenna to drive a Sangean HD radio reciever. Excellent results, and I am VERY HAPPY with the performance. What I did was separate the UHF from the VHF (reset the switch from "combined" to "separate"). Set the FM trap to "out" of course , and connected a short piece of coax to the UHF input port (about 4" long) with the rubber boot taped to the coax at the bottom, di-electric grease in the connector, and a small bead of silicone sealer smeared on the top of the boot to seal and isolate the UHF input side. I then dressed the VHF side in a similar fashion, but of course ran the coax on into the house connecting to the receiver.
> 
> 
> My question is, if using the new style with no option to separate out all the UHF gain coming down the coax, will this have any effect on the FM reception? Or will there be no negative or minimal effect on the FM reception of either analog or digital signals?
> 
> 
> I thank you for indulging me this question.



I'm not sure I understand what you're doing. You have an FM antenna connected to the old CM7777 VHF input and nothing connected to the UHF input with the switch set to "separate?" I would think this is no different than setting the switch to "common" and and connecting the FM to the common port.


The new CM7777 has a switchable FM trap but just one input. It should work with an FM antenna only. I have a VHF preamp I use with an FM only antenna.


Chuck


----------



## OTAhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/21980528
> 
> 
> I'm not sure I understand what you're doing. You have an FM antenna connected to the old CM7777 VHF input and nothing connected to the UHF input with the switch set to "separate?" I would think this is no different than setting the switch to "common" and and connecting the FM to the common port.
> 
> 
> The new CM7777 has a switchable FM trap but just one input. It should work with an FM antenna only. I have a VHF preamp I use with an FM only antenna.
> 
> 
> Chuck



That is exactly what I did. I thought it would be better to send "pure" VHF down the coax... I figured (right or wrong) it might be better to send only amped VHF to the receiver. Didn't know for sure either way, just made an educated guess. That was the point of my question... Does it make any difference or not? I figured I could separate out the UHF if need be with the old style but knew I could not withe new style. If it makes no difference, then all the better. I intend on installing some more FM antennas in the future and was afraid the new style 7777s would not do as well as the old style.


I just wanted an assurance as to whether or not running that much UHF gain down the coax to a FM tuner was going to mess up the reception. I am getting very good reception of my desired Houston FM analogs from 86 miles away, as well as the digital signal from a FM nearly 57 miles away from the FM antenna up about 18 feet.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stevesr0* /forum/post/21977468
> 
> 
> I am open to roof install if that is necessary, but would prefer an attic installation for simplicity, ease of maintenance and cost.
> 
> 
> I assume that use of a rotor would generally not work if I installed the antenna in my attic, because of limited attic space.
> 
> 
> For an attic install, is there a multidirection UHF/VHF HD antenna that you would recommend?
> 
> 
> Steve



I've seen pictures of 4-Bay and 8-Bay Bowtie antennas installed in

attics, with the rotator mounted either on the floor or hung between

the rafters with the antenna hanging down.


mclapp's M4 is 40"Hx36"W with best UHF and Hi-VHF performance:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl 

DIY or partial kit from his website:
http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweather.com/index.html 


Narrower, commercial Multi-Bowtie antennas can provide good UHF performance,

however Hi-VHF performance is either low (4-Bay) or uneven (8-Bay):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl 
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html 
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


----------



## holl_ands

*OTAhead:*

Strong UHF signals only generate Third-order Intermod products as low as the

Hi-VHF band....which should be attenuated by a filtering in the amp's VHF/UHF

combiner network.....so in theory there should be NO degradation of FM signals.


HOWEVER, it is best to use a separate Preamp (or NO Preamp) for the FM Tuner

to avoid degradation of the FM signals due to Third-order Intermod products

between strong VHF signals.


----------



## Smoke_signal




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *OTAhead* /forum/post/21978753
> 
> 
> Thank you for the update. I might buy a couple of these to put in my "goodies box" in case I ever run across a need for them.



Caution using the Audiovox DT60CFTR "RCA in-line F-connector for RG6 coax" splice kit. I found the inside diameter of the center contact of the DT60CFTR to be too loose for the center conductor of my RG6 coax. That's why I lost continuity and the signal. If you use this splice kit, test the fit of your coax center conductor using a bare sample before installing the splice kit. If not snug, DON"T USE THIS KIT!


I had to remove my DT60CFTR splicer and go back to 2 male F-connectors and an inline barrel connector. Only this time I used Ideal F-connectors instead of GE F-connectors. The Ideal connectors fit my coax MUCH better than the GE connectors, although the GE connectors come with O-rings and Ideal does not. (I used the O-rings from the GE connectors instead.) This change of brands should make my splice more reliable.


Maybe a dab of solder or a slight bend on the tip of the coax center conductor might make a loose conductor snug enough to use with the DT60CFTR. In the meantime, I'm going to mail my now broken DT60CFTR to Audiovox for a free replacement per their Limited Lifetime Warranty along with a note of criticism.


----------



## OTAhead

Thanks. Now we've gotten to the real world application. Good for you in your return of maechandise and letter of criticism. If more of us did that the world might end up a better place. Thanks again for doing the "QC" testing for us...


----------



## OTAhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/21981285
> 
> *OTAhead:*
> 
> Strong UHF signals only generate Third-order Intermod products as low as the
> 
> Hi-VHF band....which should be attenuated by a filtering in the amp's VHF/UHF
> 
> combiner network.....so in theory there should be NO degradation of FM signals.
> 
> 
> HOWEVER, it is best to use a separate Preamp (or NO Preamp) for the FM Tuner
> 
> to avoid degradation of the FM signals due to Third-order Intermod products
> 
> between strong VHF signals.



Thanks for responding. I feel a bit better about future installations knowing that the new style 7777 will probably work well for FM. I did send you a PM for clarification on one matter. I have learned so much from y'all and I thank everyone for the education.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> good for you in your return of maechandise and letter of criticism. If more of us did that the world might end up a better place.



+1.


----------



## Konrad2

> HOWEVER, it is best to use a separate Preamp (or NO Preamp) for

> the FM Tuner to avoid degradation of the FM signals due to

> Third-order Intermod products between strong VHF signals.


You could put a FM-band bandpass filter ahead of the amp to

keep VHF (and everything else) out. A bit of channel 6 (and

a bit of whatever is just above FM) will leak in since the filter

slope isn't infinitely steep.


----------



## OTAhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Konrad2* /forum/post/21988082
> 
> 
> > HOWEVER, it is best to use a separate Preamp (or NO Preamp) for
> 
> > the FM Tuner to avoid degradation of the FM signals due to
> 
> > Third-order Intermod products between strong VHF signals.
> 
> 
> You could put a FM-band bandpass filter ahead of the amp to
> 
> keep VHF (and everything else) out. A bit of channel 6 (and
> 
> a bit of whatever is just above FM) will leak in since the filter
> 
> slope isn't infinitely steep.



Thanks for the advice. I don't think that will be necessary though. We have one hi VHF station here, KBMT, on RF channel 12, with an ERP of 18.2 KW. They had a CP to go to 160 KW, but let it expire without action. The only other hi VHF station I can recieve is KPLC on RF channel 7 with an ERP of (I think) 62 KW which is 63.3 miles away.


There is a LD RF channel 6 licensed to the area at 300 Watts, but I am barely inside the coverage contour and it is a phantom anyway. It never was built from what I can tell.


The CM 7777 that I am using to drive the signal that I am recieving from the Antennacraft FM 6 is working wonderfully well. I am very happy with the results. I am reliably getting stations from the Houston area from over 85 miles away. I was listening to KTBZ yesterday for several hours and I was getting the digital signal most of the time, with intermittant bumps back to analog occasionally. I really enjoyed being able to listen to that station...


----------



## tylerSC

I noticed they have started carrying the Clearstream 1 Convertible antenna at Walmart, which is the first decent indoor antenna they have sold in a long time. I hope they will carry more Antennas Direct products instore, as the rest of their selection is rather lousy. They also carry the Terk HDTVa, Channel Master 4228HD and RCA (Winegard) 751 online, but not in store. Those flat panel antennas they sell just don't normally do the job.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *OTAhead* /forum/post/21997282
> 
> 
> The CM 7777 that I am using to drive the signal that I am recieving from the Antennacraft FM 6 is working wonderfully well.



Did you ever try FM with no amplifier? Line loss shouldn't be an issue if running less than 100 feet of coax.


To keep noise levels down when listening to fringe analog FM stereo it is best to avoid amplification if possible. The FM 6 worked very well for me as well at those distances with no help at all.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC* /forum/post/22000666
> 
> 
> I noticed they have started carrying the Clearstream 1 Convertible antenna at Walmart, which is the first decent indoor antenna they have sold in a long time. I hope they will carry more Antennas Direct products instore, as the rest of their selection is rather lousy. They also carry the Terk HDTVa, Channel Master 4228HD and RCA (Winegard) 751 online, but not in store.



Selection does vary by store. Our local walmart (an hour away from walmart home office) stocks the RCA (winegard) ANT751.


----------



## TaskMaster

I built a simple SBGH with some stripped copper wire and old window screen as a reflector. I set the antenna up in my attic and results were pretty decent. I get all but one of the Boston stations I wanted (needed to slightly tweak direction to get a few of the stations at a viewable level).


Here's my Tvfool:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...de653399c49b5a 


(edit: fixed link)


I was going to move on to a more permanent build installed on the roof. I was considering the gapless sbgh "gold standard" or is another layout better for my location?


Thanks for any input.


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TaskMaster* /forum/post/22001043
> 
> 
> I built a simple SBGH with some stripped copper wire and old window screen as a reflector. I set the antenna up in my attic and results were pretty decent. I get all but one of the Boston stations I wanted (needed to slightly tweak direction to get a few of the stations at a viewable level).
> 
> 
> Here's my Tvfool:
> 
> 
> hxxp:// www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dde650b2c70812
> 
> (sorry, no links yet)
> 
> 
> I was going to move on to a more permanent build installed on the roof. I was considering the sbgh "gold standard" or is another layout better for my location?
> 
> 
> Thanks for any input.



your tvfool report isn't showing and yes I replaced the xx with tt


----------



## TaskMaster

Thanks, I'll grab the link again. 1 more post and I can post links.


----------



## TaskMaster

My TVFool link in next post.


----------



## TaskMaster

Here it is, thanks again:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...de653399c49b5a 


I'll add that I really don't care about the stations listed in the VHF band enough that I'd make a more complicated build.


----------



## OTAhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/22000757
> 
> 
> Did you ever try FM with no amplifier? Line loss shouldn't be an issue if running less than 100 feet of coax.
> 
> 
> To keep noise levels down when listening to fringe analog FM stereo it is best to avoid amplification if possible. The FM 6 worked very well for me as well at those distances with no help at all.



I have to admit that I have not tried the FM6 without the 7777. Having said that, I find it hard to believe that quality reception of the Houston locals would be possible without it at the distance I am from the transmitters. But, having not tried it, I certainly don't know for sure.


I will post an example (specifically for KTBZ) of the signal strength from my FM FOOL report in my next post...


----------



## OTAhead

Here is the FM FOOL report for KTBZ:


CALL: KTBZ

CHANNEL: 94.5

POWER: 97 KW

Rx (dBm):-76.8

PATH: 2 Edge

DIST:86.4 miles


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TaskMaster* /forum/post/22001523
> 
> 
> Here it is, thanks again:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...de653399c49b5a
> 
> 
> I'll add that I really don't care about the stations listed in the VHF band enough that I'd make a more complicated build.



I'm assuming you want the Boston stations. The only one I see an issue with is WLVI. Anyways is that the real height of your antenna, 32 feet? Also which SBGH did you build?


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC* /forum/post/22000666
> 
> 
> I noticed they have started carrying the Clearstream 1 Convertible antenna at Walmart.





Ours started to carry that and the Clearstream 1 and Micron R. Which is stupid because we are 70+ miles from most stations. I'd say most people in my area can get maybe 1 or perhaps 2 stations in with one of those if your lucky.


----------



## TaskMaster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BCF68* /forum/post/22002172
> 
> 
> I'm assuming you want the Boston stations. The only one I see an issue with is WLVI. Anyways is that the real height of your antenna, 32 feet? Also which SBGH did you build?



I originally used the layout here - http://www.centralmediaserver.com/WI...nnadrawing.pdf 


The height of the antenna is probably off because I wasn't sure the mounting location and my house is on a hill. The uphill side is probably more in the low 20s and I guestimated the downhill side to be about 32'. It will probably go closer to the uphill side.


I am looking at mainly Boston with anything else being a novelty. WLVI is the one station in the Boston group I haven't pulled in from the attic.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I was going to move on to a more permanent build installed on the roof. I was considering the sbgh "gold standard" or is another layout better for my location?



Keep in mind, JEDs "gold standard" version is a rod model. Dont mix driven elements from screen/mesh models with the driven elements from the rod models. The reflector rods are highly tuned to work with specific models.


The latest optimized models are here: http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/gh_n3_uV.html


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Ours started to carry that and the Clearstream 1 and Micron R. Which is stupid because we are 70+ miles from most stations. I'd say most people in my area can get maybe 1 or perhaps 2 stations in with one of those if your lucky.



About the same distance here and Sams Club was selling the C1 only. They shouldn't do that, its only going to make people ticked off at AD for poor reception. The C2 should be the minimum with those distances.


----------



## TaskMaster




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/22002661
> 
> 
> Keep in mind, JEDs "gold standard" version is a rod model. Dont mix driven elements from screen/mesh models with the driven elements from the rod models. The reflector rods are highly tuned to work with specific models.
> 
> 
> The latest optimized models are here: http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/gh_n3_uV.html



I bought some 1/4" aluminum rod for the complete layout - about $1 per 6ft length. I was going to duplicate whichever layout as closely as I can so I won't mix the elements. Is there a benefit to those layouts for my UHF only scenario? The tilted tophats and split rods make the build a bit more complex.


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BCF68* /forum/post/22002205
> 
> 
> Ours started to carry that and the Clearstream 1 and Micron R. Which is stupid because we are 70+ miles from most stations. I'd say most people in my area can get maybe 1 or perhaps 2 stations in with one of those if your lucky.



We tried to tell them that there are many locations where our antennas should not go since they're simply the wrong antenna for that area... They make the decision as to where the product goes without regard to its appropriateness. Couldn't get them (yet) to at least stock the C2 Complete so modest VHF signals get coverage. Sigh...



FWIW, the C1 Convertible and the Micron-R are essentially the same antenna from a performance standpoint.


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADTech* /forum/post/22003377
> 
> 
> We tried to tell them that there are many locations where our antennas should not go since they're simply the wrong antenna for that area... They make the decision as to where the product goes without regard to its appropriateness. Couldn't get them (yet) to at least stock the C2 Complete so modest VHF signals get coverage. Sigh....



Well let's just say that in the month they have had them I don't see any being sold. If they do I'm sure they'll get returned. No offense on your product but for practically free I can make an antenna that will get 8 dB on UHF.


I do like some of you other antennas you have on you website like the 91XG unfortunately the highest gain is on the upper UHF which is not where it's needed. An antenna like that that would have that 15-17 dB gain on channels 15-27 is one I would consider getting.


----------



## tylerSC

Well, Walmart does not carry any long range outdoor antennas in their stores, and there are some areas where a short range indoor antenna will just not work. They do offer the CM4228HD online, but they should offer something like a Winegard 7696 or a Clearstream 4 for fringe areas where indoor antennas are not an option.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *OTAhead* /forum/post/22001623
> 
> 
> Here is the FM FOOL report for KTBZ:
> 
> 
> CALL: KTBZ
> 
> CHANNEL: 94.5
> 
> POWER: 97 KW
> 
> Rx (dBm):-76.8
> 
> PATH: 2 Edge
> 
> DIST:86.4 miles



The FM 6 should easily pick that station all by itself going by this contour map . My FM 6 could easily get stations well outside the contour that don't even show up on the FM Fool chart. This station was one I listened to frequently when I lived in Manassas which is completely off the map about 30 miles outside the fringe contour.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I originally used the layout here - http://www.centralmediaserver.com/WI...nnadrawing.pdf



Thats the original SBGH gen1 with a mesh reflector. The pvc frame for it, designed by the guy at channel 9, is way overkill. There are simpler frame methods that are just as strong and lighter and cheaper.


Yeah, if youre going to build a rod model, the "gold standard" GH6 model by JED looks good for you. http://www.jedsoft.org/fun/antennas/dtv/gh.html 


(Youll most likely get that strong channel 11 even without NARODs. If need be, you could always attach a pair of straight 28" NARODs to that GH6 model. Thats an important advantage the rod models have over the mesh models. The mesh models are strictly uhf only.)


I take it youll be aiming at 233 degrees true, which means you have some big hills between you and the station. I would tilt the antenna upwards to point to the tops of those hills.


----------



## TaskMaster

I used his dimensions for the elements only (I printed his layout and bent the elements to match). I epoxied the element inner corners to a scrap board, made two standoffs and used some strapping to hold the mesh screen. For the roof build I was thinking PVC and fiberglass rods similar to a build of yours I've seen.


----------



## OTAhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/22004687
> 
> 
> The FM 6 should easily pick that station all by itself going by this contour map . My FM 6 could easily get stations well outside the contour that don't even show up on the FM Fool chart. This station was one I listened to frequently when I lived in Manassas which is completely off the map about 30 miles outside the fringe contour.



Well, I never would have thunk to tell the truth. If I ever have occasion to take the antenna down for any reason I will remove the 7777 and try it without it.


The FM6 seems to be a pretty good little antenna.


And thanks for the coverage map. The web site is going on one of my Droids home pages for future reference.


Thanks again.


----------



## smaerd58

It has been some time since I last posted. I am now thinking about goback to OTA HDTV again. Comcast prices including internet is getting ridiculousness. I watch maybe 10 channels out of over 300. These are the channels I need to receive. Back in the day for an attic install the CM 4228 used to be the antenna of choice. Is it still or is there a new kid on the block these days? Thanks,Rick


KYW-DT 3.1 CBS

RF Channel: 26

59 miles at 18°

UHF

Violet

WCAU-DT 10.1 NBC

RF Channel: 34

59 miles at 18°

UHF

Violet

WPHL-DT 17.1 MNT

RF Channel: 17

59 miles at 18°

UHF

Violet

WPSG-DT 57.1 CW

RF Channel: 32

59 miles at 18°

UHF

Violet

WPVI-DT 6.1 ABC

RF Channel: 6

59 miles at 18°

VHF

Violet

WYBE-DT 35.1 PBS

RF Channel: 35

59 miles at 18°

UHF

Violet


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smaerd58* /forum/post/22006095
> 
> 
> It has been some time since I last posted. I am now thinking about goback to OTA HDTV again. Comcast prices including internet is getting ridiculousness. I watch maybe 10 channels out of over 300. These are the channels I need to receive. Back in the day for an attic install the CM 4228 used to be the antenna of choice. Is it still or is there a new kid on the block these days? Thanks,Rick
> 
> 
> KYW-DT 3.1 CBS
> 
> RF Channel: 26
> 
> 59 miles at 18°
> 
> UHF
> 
> Violet
> 
> WCAU-DT 10.1 NBC
> 
> RF Channel: 34
> 
> 59 miles at 18°
> 
> UHF
> 
> Violet
> 
> WPHL-DT 17.1 MNT
> 
> RF Channel: 17
> 
> 59 miles at 18°
> 
> UHF
> 
> Violet
> 
> WPSG-DT 57.1 CW
> 
> RF Channel: 32
> 
> 59 miles at 18°
> 
> UHF
> 
> Violet
> 
> WPVI-DT 6.1 ABC
> 
> RF Channel: 6
> 
> 59 miles at 18°
> 
> VHF
> 
> Violet
> 
> WYBE-DT 35.1 PBS
> 
> RF Channel: 35
> 
> 59 miles at 18°
> 
> UHF
> 
> Violet



Please post a TVfool report. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29


----------



## tylerSC

The 4228 should be good for all the Philadelphia UHF channels, but may not do the job for ABC on RF6 at 59 miles. A separate VHF antenna may be required. Plus a preamp. But you may stand a chance at ABC from Baltimore which is UHF, but not sure of the distance at your location. And you're probably a bit too far for DC channels.


----------



## Tower Guy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smaerd58* /forum/post/22006095
> 
> 
> Back in the day for an attic install the CM 4228 used to be the antenna of choice.



You need a high gain antenna that covers low band VHF, high band VHF and UHF. I doubt that any antenna will work for you in the attic.


Take a look at the Winegard HD 7084P with AP8700 preamp. Other similar antennas and preamps are also appropriate.


----------



## smaerd58

Ironic I was just there earlier ;-) I am only looking for digitals.

Here is my link

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...de65f129c3d6be 


Back in 06 with a cheap RS UHF-Only Model: U-75R mounted in Attic and is still up there but not hooked up because Comcast cut the cable and used my RG6 to run theres. I got these results.


KYW-DT 3.1 80%

WPVI-DT 6.1,6.2,6.3 0%

WCAU 10-01 70%

WXPL 10-02 70%

WGTW 48-01,02,03,04,05 70%

WPSG 57-01



Thanks,Rick


----------



## OTAhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tower Guy* /forum/post/22006580
> 
> 
> You need a high gain antenna that covers low band VHF, high band VHF and UHF. I doubt that any antenna will work for you in the attic.
> 
> 
> Take a look at the Winegard HD 7084P with AP8700 preamp. Other similar antennas and preamps are also appropriate.



I really like my Channel Master 3671 antenna...


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> No offense on your product but for practically free I can make an antenna that will get 8 dB on UHF.



Then you're obviously not a candidate for a small, compact antenna (that doesn't look like remodeled coat hangers) that can be purchased in a retail store, eh?



> Quote:
> An antenna like that that would have that 15-17 dB gain on channels 15-27 is one I would consider getting.



As Scooby Doo would say, "Rotsa Ruck" on finding that one... Do you have an idea of the physical size required for that much gain at those frequencies. Then, you'd still have to commercialize it for sale to a very, very small niche of customers. Then you'd have to figure out what to charge for it so you don't go broke making something that's large, expensive, and you only sell a relative handful of them. Decisions, decisions....



Regards!


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Back in the day for an attic install the CM 4228 used to be the antenna of choice.





> Quote:
> Back in 06 with a cheap RS UHF-Only Model: U-75R mounted in Attic I got these results.



Are you north of the WDSD FM transmitting towers ? Because if that 50 KW transmitter is in your signal path, youll have a hard time getting RF 6 consistently.


Back in 2006, which was during the transition, all those digital channels were in the uhf channel 60's range, so you really cant do a useful comparison now.


You lose a lot of signal in an attic, from 6 to 24+ db. I would mount the CM4228 and the U-75R outdoors and combine the two with a UVSJ. If the cable length is over 30 ft, use a QUALITY preamp, like from Channel Master or Winegard. Avoid the Rat Shack ones.


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADTech* /forum/post/22006962
> 
> 
> Then you're obviously not a candidate for a small, compact antenna (that doesn't look like remodeled coat hangers) that can be purchased in a retail store, eh?



I just have a thing about selling someone something for $70 they can make for $5 that works equally well or better. call me silly.




> Quote:
> As Scooby Doo would say, "Rotsa Ruck" on finding that one... Do you have an idea of the physical size required for that much gain at those frequencies.



Let's see to move the gain that's at 698 MHz down to 554 MHz? yeah about 25% larger.



> Quote:
> Then, you'd still have to commercialize it for sale to a very, very small niche of customers. Then you'd have to figure out what to charge for it so you don't go broke making something that's large, expensive, and you only sell a relative handful of them. Decisions, decisions....



Just wishing out loud. No need to be a "donkey" about it. I never suggested you make such a thing. Quit getting defensive. Gee I even said it was a nice antenna and you go off and be as smart aleck. You just made sure I never buy anything form AD. Good job.


----------



## ADTech

And you can make a cup of coffee at home for 25 cents or less but people still line up at Starbucks! There's a customer for almost every product and service on the market. Isn't capitalism grand?


If using the 91XG as a comparison, you'd actually have to scale its peak gain from 765 MHz, it's current peak, down to the 554 MHz making it about 35-40% larger then the existing model. The alternative to a Yagi-style antenna would probably be either a multi-bay bowtie or a parabolic. For example, you could rescale our new DB4e up by 25%, then make a two unit horizontal stack making a total estimated dimension of about 5' wide by 4' tall by 7-8" deep. Theoretically, that should put you in a the ballpark with a peak gain around 16-17 dBi at the top of the design band.


Sorry, it wasn't my intention to rub you the wrong way. I was just pointing out the business complications that are involved in any new product that would have to be considered. We'd love to have the perfect antenna for everyone, but the business doesn't permit that.


Cheers!


----------



## arxaw

Walmart won't carry a huge antenna, due to shelf space vs profit. Plus, their very liberal return policy would have them taking back antennas that have a high probability of damage. This is what a walmart corporate employee told me, in Bentonville, Ark., where WM headquarters are.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/22007863
> 
> 
> Walmart won't carry a huge antenna, due to shelf space vs profit. Plus, their very liberal return policy would have them taking back antennas that have a high probability of damage. This is what a walmart corporate employee told me, in Bentonville, Ark., where WM headquarters are.



Well, back in the analog days, Walmart, Kmart, and Sears all carried the large outside antennas. Not anymore. And Lowes use to carry Channel Master. Now they only have some RCA or Philips brand.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Well, back in the analog days, Walmart, Kmart, and Sears all carried the large outside antennas. Not anymore. And Lowes use to carry Channel Master. Now they only have some RCA or Philips brand.



Yep, and in the old days they used to display those large antennas by hanging them from the ceiling, taking up absolutely NO shelf space.


Maybe the cable companies are paying the chains to sell only antennas that wont work well in an area ??????


----------



## OTAhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC* /forum/post/22008537
> 
> 
> Well, back in the analog days, Walmart, Kmart, and Sears all carried the large outside antennas. Not anymore. And Lowes use to carry Channel Master. Now they only have some RCA or Philips brand.



And to think how much floor space was taken up with those big, bulky, console color TVs...


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BCF68* /forum/post/22007601
> 
> 
> I just have a thing about selling someone something for $70 they can make for $5 that works equally well or better. call me silly.



Gain isn't everything. Front-to-Rear is another important antenna spec and I've seen the F/R plots on those homemade antennas and they aren't very good. Some of us live in places where F/R is the most important spec. The 91XG seems to be tops in that department and has been able to receive stations up here in the foothills when others couldn't. I tried others and they didn't work as well.


I've attached an image showing my situation. I'm located at the red dot on the right. KOVR is representative of my local stations to the west. The blue line shows the 2 edge path to my antennas. The red lines show the LOS path to a range of higher mountains 6 miles east of me and the green lines the reflections to the rear of my antennas.


In this situation the reflections are nearly as strong as the signals on the main path. I'm entirely dependent on the F/R of the antennas to be able to receive my local stations.


The 2nd image shows the spectrum analyzer trace for the direct path of KOVR and the reflections when pointed 180 degrees. It's a tough situation for any antenna.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/22009490
> 
> 
> I've attached an image showing my situation. I'm located at the red dot on the right. KOVR is representative of my local stations to the west. The blue line shows the 2 edge path to my antennas. The red lines show the LOS path to a range of higher mountains 6 miles east of me and the green lines the reflections to the rear of my antennas.



I never realized that you were stuck that low behind the hill to the west of you. How far north and south does that ridge run? Considering your location, your antennas do a great job for you!


Now I see why you have a better shot at Salinas than you do at Walnut Grove.


Larry


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/22009490
> 
> 
> Gain isn't everything. Front-to-Rear is another important antenna spec and I've seen the F/R plots on those homemade antennas and they aren't very good. Some of us live in places where F/R is the most important spec.



If you use a reflector it will reject those signals from the back. Unless you want to tell hollands his models are full of crap. I think he'd disagree with you.


----------



## smaerd58

WDSD tower is south of me I live near Garrisons Lake. I repaired the old RS antenna and I get all Phily channels on UHF at 75% or better except for channel 6 VHF. Would like to find a small form factor VHF for the attic to grab that one. Also at the time my run is about 50 ft. No preamp. Thanks, Rick


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BCF68* /forum/post/22010190
> 
> 
> If you use a reflector it will reject those signals from the back. Unless you want to tell hollands his models are full of crap. I think he'd disagree with you.



Of course, all gain in a directional antenna comes from "narrowing" the beam width. I am not enough of a math guy to calculate what the theoretical maximum gain would be with a very narrow beam width. The higher the gain, the more difficult to "aim".


If I remember correctly, the simple dipole antenna is 2-3 db gain because off the ends is very weak.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BCF68* /forum/post/22010190
> 
> 
> If you use a reflector it will reject those signals from the back. Unless you want to tell hollands his models are full of crap. I think he'd disagree with you.



Can you provide links to real world tests with spectrum analyzer displays showing the F/R? The models I was looking at for the Gray-Hoverman antenna with screen show the F/R to be about equal to slightly worse than the model for the 91XG.


I tried increasing the screen size on the 91XGs I have up and it made no improvement on the F/R at all.


I had some experience recently building an antenna from a model and I found that the real antenna and the model don't necessarily perform exactly the same. Models have their limitations. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying they are useless but there are real world factors like position of baluns, feed line, hardware used to build the antenna, masts, other nearby antennas, element length and spacing errors, etc. that can alter the performance that are not part of the models in most cases. And these things never enhance the antenna performance.


I've attached a spectrum analyzer trace of KMMW 28 which is one of my few LOS stations. The F/B averages around 28 dB but you can still see that I'm receiving reflections from the hills because the back trace is so choppy.


Chuck


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/22010081
> 
> 
> I never realized that you were stuck that low behind the hill to the west of you. How far north and south does that ridge run? Considering your location, your antennas do a great job for you!
> 
> 
> Now I see why you have a better shot at Salinas than you do at Walnut Grove.
> 
> 
> Larry



That close-in ridge begins to block me at about 245 degrees and goes up and down as you move north. It's really bad toward the City of Sacramento. Sutro is at 253 degrees but the Fremont transmitters are at 235 in the clear and Salinas is at 208 degrees, really clear.


Of course those terrain plots greatly exaggerate the refraction angles because the horizontal distances are very compressed. The angles to Walnut Grove are less than 0.5 degrees.


I attached the terrain plots for KGO and KSBW. You can see why Sutro is so hard from here where KSBW has just one edge fairly close to their transmitter. I added in transmit and receive antenna heights which is why my added blue line is higher at the end points. I'm on the left in these plots.


Chuck


----------



## L David Matheny




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *niualaals94* /forum/post/22011160
> 
> 
> I haven't read this entire thread so please forgive me, but many times on this forum I have seen folks send a link to a web site, where you plug in your zip code and it will tell you the HD channels you should be able to receive and the best type of antenna for receiving them. Does anyone know that link? Thanks!



I think TV Fool is mentioned most often. And another (I think older) site is AntennaWeb .


P.S. There was some kind of .JPG link appended to your post as an IMG. I can't even see it, so the link may be bad, but is it really necessary?


----------



## arxaw

niualaals94,

Use the address entry form at TVFool:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29 

If you live in a rural area, use the mapping tool:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29 

Find your house and drag-drop the red map marker onto it, for the most accurate results.


You may get a long list of channels. Only the stronger ones at the top of the list will be receivable. See the color code key at the bottom of the results page.


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/22011020
> 
> 
> I've attached a spectrum analyzer trace of KMMW 28 which is one of my few LOS stations. The F/B averages around 28 dB but you can still see that I'm receiving reflections from the hills because the back trace is so choppy.
> 
> 
> Chuck



Short of making a reflector out of lead ( which isn't practical ) no reflector is going to block all of a signal from behind. That being said 28 dB is 99.8% which I think is pretty good.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smaerd58* /forum/post/22006596
> 
> 
> Ironic I was just there earlier ;-) I am only looking for digitals.
> 
> Here is my link
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...de65f129c3d6be
> 
> 
> Back in 06 with a cheap RS UHF-Only Model: U-75R mounted in Attic and is still up there but not hooked up because Comcast cut the cable and used my RG6 to run theres. I got these results.
> 
> 
> KYW-DT 3.1 80%
> 
> WPVI-DT 6.1,6.2,6.3 0%
> 
> WCAU 10-01 70%
> 
> WXPL 10-02 70%
> 
> WGTW 48-01,02,03,04,05 70%
> 
> WPSG 57-01
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,Rick



According to that TVFool report, you should also have a decent shot at most Baltimore channels at 54 miles. And ABC from Baltimore may be easier to receive as WMAR is on UHF, and the Philly ABC on RF6 is reportedly problematic. But DC is probably just a bit too far at 82 miles, although their RF7 and RF9 are more powerful than many VHFs in other markets, so if you had a very good outside set up, you just might be able to see them at times. Not sure about WTTG and WRC which are Fox and NBC on UHF, but it would be nice to get them as they are major network O & O affiliates from the nation's capitol.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BCF68* /forum/post/22012240
> 
> 
> Short of making a reflector out of lead ( which isn't practical ) no reflector is going to block all of a signal from behind. That being said 28 dB is 99.8% which I think is pretty good.



I agree completely. I was only illustrating that there are situations where antenna gain is not the most important factor. My 9 local stations have about 20 to 35 dB noise margin, strong enough for every one of them to have an SNR >30 dB. But not a one is that good. Most run in the mid 20's, in the ballpark of F/R ratio of the antennas. I can throw away 10 dB and and see no change in Signal Quality at all. Signal Quality at my location is entirely dependent on F/R of the antennas.


Chuck


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> WDSD tower is south of me I live near Garrisons Lake. I repaired the old RS antenna and I get all Phily channels on UHF at 75% or better except for channel 6 VHF. Would like to find a small form factor VHF for the attic to grab that one. Also at the time my run is about 50 ft. No preamp. Thanks, Rick



Just to make sure we're talking the same RS 75R antenna, is this yours pictured here ? :
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/VU-75XR.html 


The 75R antenna gets about 4 dbi in Raw Gain at channel 6, on par with most combo antennas, even some that are much bigger. But Net Gain is about zero, which means the SWR on it is over 8.5:1 at 300ohms. Not good for digital which should be 2.7:1 SWR or less. http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 

(I have that NEC model of the 75R from Ken Nist so I could play around with it to try to get more Net Gain on channel 6, but it will take some time)


To get a significant increase, youll need something like the 190R or YA-1026 or 3671 etc which are much much bigger antennas.


The most compact channel 6 antenna, with significant gain increase over what you have now, is the no longer made Wade Delhi 5Y6S single channel antenna.

You can make your own from plans here: http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...ght=delhi+5Y6s 

(Note that measurements are in centimeters in the first post, and the boom length is 184 CM not 84 CM, which makes it a little over 6 feet long. It has 9.29 dBi Raw Gain with a SWR of 1.69 at 85 mhz, Net Gain of about 8.9 dbi. http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...4&postcount=22 )


I think the easiest thing to do is to move the antenna high outside, either with a mast or a chimney mount. That will improve your uhf stations too. Im surprised those uhf stations are doing so well in the attic with that RS antenna.


Another thing you could quickly try is moving the antenna in the attic, it may be near big metal or close to electrical wiring.


Do you already have a CM4228 ?


----------



## smaerd58

First Off I want to thank everyone that has responded to my questions and are trying to help me get my channels. The antenna I am using now is a old RS Model U-75R that is mounted in the attic. My house is a Two Story with Vinyl Siding and a end lot with no electric lines or trees near bye. These are original specs of antenna. At the time it was cheap as heck and was just experimental to try.They no longer sell it separate but from a readers image it looks like they now incorporate it into a complete set-up. It worked but when Comcast finaly came marching in I said Goodbye to Dish and antenna. Now with the internet and FTA I am coming back. I am also open to try another antenna but it has to go in the attic and not on the house.I do not have the 4228 I just remember they were reliable in 06. Wife is cooperating with me migrating back and ditching cable but draws the line with antenna hanging off the house ;-)


Dimensions

Product Length 40 inches

Product Height 32 inches

Product Width 16 inches

Product Weight 2.55 pounds

General Features


Model U-75R

Product Type UHF only

Enclosure Color Gray

Body Material Multi

Radio Shack site claims 75 miles


----------



## arxaw

Quite often, vinyl siding has foil-backed insulation behind it. If yours does _and_ if you have to aim through it (instead of through asphalt shingles), your attic reception may be greatly hampered. Even if not aiming directly through it, the foil, if present, may still cause significant reflection/multipath problems.


It is not very likely your existing UHF-only antenna will get WJZ, WPVI, WHYY or WBAL very well, all of which are VHF channels. And WPVI is lowband VHF, requiring an antenna with even longer elements, typically over 100" in width, tip to tip.


You will likely need a fairly large, VHF-LO, VHF-HI, UHF (aka all-channel) antenna for attic reception. Or, you might combine a VHF antenna with your existing UHF antenna.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Model U-75R
> 
> Product Type UHF only
> 
> Enclosure Color Gray
> 
> Body Material Multi
> 
> Radio Shack site claims 75 miles



The mileage claim is meaningless. They quote a conservative 9.5 dBd (11.65 dBi) in their specs. http://support.radioshack.com/suppor...oc19/19192.htm It probably has a peak gain of just below 14 dBi.


I originally thought you had the VU-75R, which has vhf elements on it.


Youll need to connect a vhf-low antenna to it with a UVSJ.

For channel 6, the AntennaCraft (who makes RS antennas) Y5-2-6 is about the cheapest way to go ($28) if you just want to add channel 6.
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...u=716079000949 

and a UVSJ for about $2
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...r-%28Z-UVSJ%29 


Of course, if you get a quality preamp (which you should since youre using 50 ft of coax) with separate UHF and VHF inputs, you can skip the UVSJ.


But dont you also want WHYY PBS 12 ? If so, then youll need a full combo antenna. The AntennaCraft C290 is about the cheapest at $38.
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Antennas&sku= The AntennaCraft C490 would be better still, but at a higher price.


And since the uhf section on it looks to be about as good as your U-75R, you can skip the UVSJ. (a quality preamp is still recommended with 50 ft of coax)


Generally, AntennaCraft/RS antennas arent as durable outdoors as Channel Master or Winegard ones. But in an attic, it doesnt matter.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/22008695
> 
> 
> Yep, and in the old days they used to display those large antennas by hanging them from the ceiling, taking up absolutely NO shelf space.
> 
> 
> Maybe the cable companies are paying the chains to sell only antennas that wont work well in an area ??????



Hi,


Does the store get some money when they sell a Cable / Dish ... subscription?


Most stores here in Silicon valley know nothing about OTA, or will say incorrect things. They want their commission!


I had a huge problem getting Fry's to admit that they had FM HD Radios.


Then the one station I wanted in FM HD went off the air. Well it's back with a 16 Watt translator which fights with one of their other translators on the same frequency.










SHF


----------



## smaerd58

300Aohm, antennaCraft-C29 & AntennaCraft -C490 W







uld these be one stop shopping for all my digital phily stations? I could always shoot my U-75R at Baltimore as a backup in case phily pixalates. Now just have to see how i can cram one of these in the attic through a 3x4 hatch and into the A frame. Thanks, Rick


----------



## The Hound

Assemble it in the attic.

On a cool night.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> AntennaCraft -C490 Wuld these be one stop shopping for all my digital phily stations?



Yes, the C490 would. The picture in the Solid Signal ad for the C290 is wrong, it has way less elements. So, the C290 would be very weak to use in an attic.

The AntennaCraft C490 can also be purchased at Radio Shack, but I dont think most stores would have it on hand, so it would have to be delivered.



> Quote:
> I could always shoot my U-75R at Baltimore as a backup in case phily pixalates.



Consistently without pixelation, I think ABC WMAR RF 38 (2.1 virtual) is the only Baltimore channel youll get with the U-75R. The next strongest Baltimore channels are RF 11 and 13, which need a vhf-hi antenna.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> AntennaCraft -C490 Wuld these be one stop shopping for all my digital phily stations?



Yes, the C490 would. The picture in the Solid Signal ad for the C290 is wrong, it has way less elements. So, the C290 would be very weak to use in an attic.

The AntennaCraft C490 can also be purchased at Radio Shack, but I dont think most stores would have it on hand, so it would have to be delivered.



> Quote:
> I could always shoot my U-75R at Baltimore as a backup in case phily pixalates.



Consistently without pixelation, I think ABC WMAR RF 38 (2.1 virtual) is the only Baltimore channel youll get with the U-75R. The next strongest Baltimore channels are RF 11 and 13, which need a vhf-hi antenna.



> Quote:
> Now just have to see how i can cram one of these in the attic through a 3x4 hatch and into the A frame



Yes, assemble in the attic on a cool night or in the morning before the attic heats up. You should have no trouble getting it into the attic as the box will be approx around 18 inches by 12 inches or so, but it will be long. You should do some think ahead planning, knowing were the front of the antenna is in the box and the direction it will be finally pointed at. In some cases you may have to take it up back end first. Turning around a large antenna in an attic is no easy task, heh.


----------



## OTAhead

Uh... From my perspective (deep southeast Texas), any morning in Delaware would be a "cool morning" wouldn't it???


----------



## smaerd58

300ohm, Well Crash and Burn. I got the AntennaCraft-C490 from RS and installed the behemoth in my Attic with 18 inches of blown insulation & much finagling. I aimed it at 18* North and got little to no signal. Only ones coming in are UHF but no VHF. Just 3 phili channels and I don't see any other? I removed it from the splitter put in a barrel coupling because cable was a little short and still no good at around 30ft of run? It is laying supported on my A frame truss and wired up at the rear and level. Now I have no idea why this large antenna gets worse signal than the little AC U75? Thanks,Rick



KYW-DT 3.1 10%

WPVI-DT 0%

WCAU 10-01 10%


----------



## Digital Rules

Reception in the attic is very unpredictable, especially VHF. With those signal strengths, you likely need something mounted outside to ensure reliable reception of the desired channels.


Not sure why some women are so against a *neatly* installed antenna if it means saving hundreds/thousands of dollars a year??? Hmmm, may be part of the reason more men are coming out of the closet these days.


----------



## mikepier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/22036555
> 
> 
> Reception in the attic is very unpredictable, especially VHF. With those signal strengths, you likely need something mounted outside to ensure reliable reception of the desired channels.



Agreed. 58 miles out with 1 and 2 edge reception is a lot to ask for an indoor antenna. You need to put that antenna outside. Doing so will not only vastly improve reception, but also might not require an amp since the signals are stronger.

And if you really want to see the Baltimore stations , you can attach on a rotor.


----------



## L David Matheny




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smaerd58* /forum/post/22036067
> 
> 
> 300ohm, Well Crash and Burn. I got the AntennaCraft-C490 from RS and installed the behemoth in my Attic with 18 inches of blown insulation & much finagling. I aimed it at 18* North and got little to no signal. Only ones coming in are UHF but no VHF. Just 3 phili channels and I don't see any other? I removed it from the splitter put in a barrel coupling because cable was a little short and still no good at around 30ft of run? It is laying supported on my A frame truss and wired up at the rear and level. Now I have no idea why this large antenna gets worse signal than the little AC U75? Thanks,Rick
> 
> 
> 
> KYW-DT 3.1 10%
> 
> WPVI-DT 0%
> 
> WCAU 10-01 10%



If you haven't, I think you need to try a preamp like the C.M. 7777. At your distance it surely should help, and unless there are local stations of some kind that could overload it, I doubt that it could hurt. Unless you're in a big hurry, order a 7777 and try it before you go to the trouble of moving the antenna.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Now I have no idea why this large antenna gets worse signal than the little AC U75? Thanks,Rick
> 
> KYW-DT 3.1 10%
> 
> WPVI-DT 0%
> 
> WCAU 10-01 10%



KYW is on real channel 26 and WCAU is on real channel 34, both of which are UHF channels. WPVI (6.1) is real channel 6 VHF-Low.


That said, since the UHF gain of the U-75 and the C490 antennas are nearly identical, and they both were in the attic, you should not have seen a drop in signal from 70-80% to 10% on KYW and WCAU. *Something is terribly wrong.*

Common errors in assembling combo antennas include:

Not correctly connecting up or shorting out the phasing lines between the UHF and VHF sections.

A broken balun. When installing, dont overtighten because it can break the little wires inside. (RS baluns are notorious for being bad. You can pick up an outdoor style Phillips or RCA balun at Walmart or Lowes)

A short or open in the coax line, usually at the F connectors.



> Quote:
> I aimed it at 18* North and got little to no signal.



Just checking, was that the same direction the U-75 was pointed at ?


BTW, you could also post your experience as to getting the large antenna in the attic so that others could benefit from your experience.


----------



## smaerd58

Just a follow up.As for the experience of the attic C-490 Antenna install etc. It got a little hot up there and I thought I was going to get heat exhaustion. You Figure with all the blown insulation and temps getting into the high 70's it got cooking above that. Wear a dust mask because blown fiberglass is no joke in the lungs. As for the antenna itself I put it together on the ground first temporarily to see how everything went together and to make sure assembly was correct. It goes together in 3 large pieces and stretches out to about 12' by 8' It goes together fairly easy with wing nuts and bolts and nuts with fold out locking pieces. Make sure you have this amount of fairly clear space before install. I had about 5' of height to install with cross brases etc.and I am 6'-2" so it made it a tight experience for me. It took about 2 hours of feeling like quosimoto and clear thinking about went out the door with the heat involved. So as stated before do it early morning or at night with a good drop light. Try to get a helper if you have one around just to hand you parts or tools ;-) I had no one to help which took a little longer than expected. You might not want the wife around because my house was littered with snow like insulation that sticks to you and everything around you. Had to Break out the vacuum every time  I went back up the other day changed out the Transformer and check all connections and brought up a compass to realign to transmitters. All was OK and rechecked signals. Now UHF was pegged but no VHF channels? This was the only Antenna hooked up for testing. I had my other Antenna disconnected at the time to have a comparison. Finally went back up and disassembled the behemoth brought it down to the garage and lugged a flat screen TV to the garage and different RG6 cables for testing.Resembled the Antenna again and pulled it outside re-aimed and checked signals. Note to self maybe do this first before actual install ;-) Once again only UHF and no VHF channel 6 phil. Brought my little antenna down hooked it up and signals about the same as the larger one so packed up the C-490 & back to RS it went. Called Cmcst. lowered tier of Internet and TV (Digital Economy) for now at around $90 including taxes so will suffice until I either find another antenna just for channel 6 or look for something a little smaller for my application.Or just get an antenna for ABC Balt.I do wonder if maybe I just got a lemon of an antenna.Oh well we will never know. I hope my experience may help someone else with there decision on this type of install ;-) Thanks,Rick


----------



## Digital Rules

I would have tried an FM trap before giving up. Looks like you have a few strong FM stations very close to you.


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/22040600
> 
> 
> I would have tried an FM trap before giving up. Looks like you have a few strong FM stations very close to you.



Yep channel 6 is right next to the FM band


----------



## rabbit73

It sure looks like strong FM signals might be causing a problem. Even a good full-band FM trap might not cut sharp enough to attenuate FM signals just above 88 MHz without affecting CH6. There are tunable notch FM traps that might knock out the most troublesome FM signal.


His FM fool report in attrachment.


I agree with 300ohm:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/22039332
> 
> 
> That said, since the UHF gain of the U-75 and the C490 antennas are nearly identical, and they both were in the attic, you should not have seen a drop in signal from 70-80% to 10% on KYW and WCAU. *Something is terribly wrong.*


----------



## retiredengineer

Your RF6 reception is shown as 2-edge from TVFool. You are trying to receive the signal via diffraction. If you have diffractions coming from different locations then you have skyline multi-paths. This would result in weak signal spots and strong signal spots. You could be located in a weak signal spot. Unfortunately, at VHF, these weak and strong signal spots could be up to 50 to 200 feet apart. So there is not much you can do if you happen to be in a weak signal spot.


FM signals may be affecting RF6 and you could try a filter. However, analysis I've seen so far indicate it's the second order harmonics that causes problems and they usually only affect RF7 to RF13, not the lower RFs.


Your reception range and weak signals definitely requires use of a preamplifier. You'll be surprised what a preamplifier can do.


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *retiredengineer* /forum/post/22041998
> 
> 
> FM signals may be affecting RF6 and you could try a filter. However, analysis I've seen so far indicate it's the second order harmonics that causes problems and they usually only affect RF7 to RF13, not the lower RFs..



Channel 6 ends at 88 MHZ. He has two strong stations within 5 MHz of that at 91.7 and 92.9 and a VERY VERY strong station within 7 MHz at 94.7


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smaerd58* /forum/post/22014019
> 
> 
> I do not have the 4228 I just remember they were reliable in 06.



2006 was pre-transition and your station on RF 6 was on another channel back then, probably UHF but I have no way to research that. You can't compare 2006 to 2012.



> Quote:
> Wife is cooperating with me migrating back and ditching cable but draws the line with antenna hanging off the house ;-)



Then I guess you don't really want free TV. There's no magic here. You need to put up a good enough antenna to do the job. I've seen the difference between an attic antenna and one 40' high outside. It's dramatic, especially on low VHF.


A preamp will likely do more harm than good. Those strong FM stations will probably overload it. The Winegard AP8700 has a fixed FM trap and a narrow tunable trap which might be able to reduce that one really strong signal but you don't really need a preamp on channel 6 with your short run of cable.


Chuck


----------



## retiredengineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/22042181
> 
> 
> A preamp will likely do more harm than good. Those strong FM stations will probably overload it. The Winegard AP8700 has a fixed FM trap and a narrow tunable trap which might be able to reduce that one really strong signal but you don't really need a preamp on channel 6 with your short run of cable.
> 
> Chuck



I agree that for short runs of cable, you don't need a preamplifier. But another reason for using a preamplifier is to compensate for the noise figure (NF) of the TV. I haven't seen what the NFs are for the latest HDTVs since they don't publish that number but I believe it is much higher than the NF of a preamplifier. Higher NFs are equivalent to additional signal loss.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *retiredengineer* /forum/post/22042301
> 
> 
> I agree that for short runs of cable, you don't need a preamplifier. But another reason for using a preamplifier is to compensate for the noise figure (NF) of the TV. I haven't seen what the NFs are for the latest HDTVs since they don't publish that number but I believe it is much higher than the NF of a preamplifier. Higher NFs are equivalent to additional signal loss.



I agree 100% but he's not receiving the station at all now so picking up let's say 4 or 5 dB isn't going to make 0% reception into 100% reception. It might make 90% reception into 99% reception.


I have that situation here with a 2 edge VHF station where I improved the system noise figure by about 3.5 dB and the station went from about 75% reception to 90% reception, still not as good as I'd like but better.


Chuck


----------



## Pete-N2

Have you considered the possibility that interference is the problem? This discussion refers to RF3.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=5610


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pete-N2* /forum/post/22042971
> 
> 
> Have you considered the possibility that interference is the problem? This discussion refers to RF3.
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=5610



Interference could certainly be a problem. Power line noise could be a problem even if he doesn't have any very close by. The best chance for reception is putting the antenna 40' up in the air to get the most signal possible.


Chuck


----------



## smaerd58

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions. I just read all the reviews on this Antenna on RS and one in particular stands out. All the reviews were favorable except for this one. The review is dated FEB 25 2010 and states that after being installed that they received all channels except for VHF. Sounds familiar doesn't it, I remember looking at the Transformer Balun and it also had a date of 2010 something on it. I wonder if they just had a bad run around that time? All your suggestions sound interesting but with no obstructions laying in the driveway shouldn't I have seen at-least a weak Signal on VHF channel 6? Rick


----------



## smaerd58




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/22041578
> 
> 
> It sure looks like strong FM signals might be causing a problem. Even a good full-band FM trap might not cut sharp enough to attenuate FM signals just above 88 MHz without affecting CH6. There are tunable notch FM traps that might knock out the most troublesome FM signal.
> 
> 
> His FM fool report in attrachment.
> 
> 
> I agree with 300ohm:



I got good Signal back on the UHF side after re-aiming. I know my post was rather long but it was in there. I made it long because I didn't want to hijack the thread with little replies,Rick


----------



## retiredengineer

What do you mean by a weak VHF signal? In the analog TV days, you could see weak signals, but with digital TVs, weak signals don't appear until the signal strength is greater than 15.2 dB above receiver noise. It's the cliff affect. A preamplifier helps if the weak signal is just below this threshold (15.2 dB). However, your mileage may vary. The preamplifier may or may not help at all. You will just have to give it a try.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smaerd58* /forum/post/22043171
> 
> 
> All your suggestions sound interesting but with no obstructions laying in the driveway shouldn't I have seen at-least a weak VHF Signal? Rick



With digital you either receive it or you don't. When you don't receive a station you don't know what the problem is. Is it too weak? Is there interference? Is there multipath? The average person has no way to determine this unlike in the analog days when you could answer these questions with one look at the picture. So we play guessing games on here.


Low VHF is notoriously susceptible to noise while that's almost never a problem on UHF.


Chuck


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *smaerd58* /forum/post/22043171
> 
> 
> All your suggestions sound interesting but with no obstructions laying in the driveway shouldn't I have seen at-least a weak Signal on VHF channel 6? Rick



Not necessarily. With the FM signals being so strong, they can overwhelm the tuner to the point where it cannot even see up the weaker channel 6 signal in the background. The key is attenuate the FM frequencies to the point where the tuner can lock in on the weaker channel 6.


It's like trying to hear someone across the room when someone closer to you is talking at the same time. You won't be able to hear the distant voice until the closer one is scaled back or stopped.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Antenna reviews by non-technical consumers are about as reliable as the Olympics judges from Bulgaria, East Germany, and the USSR in the 1970's....



> Quote:
> However, analysis I've seen so far indicate it's the second order harmonics that causes problems and they usually only affect RF7 to RF13, not the lower RFs.



FM harmonic distortion can reach into channel 4 in severe cases. Charles Rhodes did a series of articles regarding potential FM interference on TVTechnology.com back in 09 or 10.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> but with no obstructions laying in the driveway shouldn't I have seen at-least a weak Signal on VHF channel 6?



Laying it directly on the driveway, no. Any antenna needs to be at least a few feet above the ground, the higher the better. On the ground, you're basically shorting it to earth.


Can you get WMAR (2.1 virtual, real 38) on the U75 when its pointed in the Baltimore direction ?


Also can you get channel 17 ? I notice that channel 6 and 17 are 2 edge stations for you while the rest of the Philly stations are 1 edge, and I really cant see why.


----------



## fireflimoon

Was wondering if people measure the SWR on their home built antennas to see how well the build went? Buying an SWR meter seems a little pricey and I guess if it works then why sweat the details right - but I'm just wondering if there are simple ways of checking on the efficiency of the antenna and whether it is performing as it should. The GH/M8 models by Nikiml and Mclapp have swr and gain info, so I was wondering if a build of one of those antennas could be measured against that information to see if there were errors in the building of them.


----------



## retiredengineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/22045495
> 
> 
> Laying it directly on the driveway, no. Any antenna needs to be at least a few feet above the ground, the higher the better. On the ground, you're basically shorting it to earth.



+1 on not laying it on the driveway. Close to the ground you also pickup more man-made noise which interferes with RF6 reception. Higher up the antenna sees less of the ground so sees less man-made noise.


----------



## arxaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules* /forum/post/22043844
> 
> 
> Not necessarily. With the FM signals being so strong, they can overwhelm the tuner to the point where it cannot even see up the weaker channel 6 signal in the background. The key is attenuate the FM frequencies to the point where the tuner can lock in on the weaker channel 6.
> 
> *It's like trying to hear someone across the room when someone closer to you is talking at the same time. You won't be able to hear the distant voice until the closer one is scaled back or stopped.*



Good analogy.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fireflimoon* /forum/post/22046078
> 
> 
> Was wondering if people measure the SWR on their home built antennas to see how well the build went? Buying an SWR meter seems a little pricey and I guess if it works then why sweat the details right - but I'm just wondering if there are simple ways of checking on the efficiency of the antenna and whether it is performing as it should. The GH/M8 models by Nikiml and Mclapp have swr and gain info, so I was wondering if a build of one of those antennas could be measured against that information to see if there were errors in the building of them.



Although stand-alone SWR Analyzers are readily available for Ham radio bands,

the test signal is ONLY output over fairly narrow bandwidths and is NOT

available over the TV & FM bands....probably due to FCC interference rules.


Unfortunately, the fol. wide-band IN-LINE Bird SWR Meters need quite a

few watts of INPUT power to measure SWR 
Which interferes with reception of TV & FM signals in your neighborhood.

LEGAL test signals need to be no more than about 10 mW (100 mW EIRP):
http://www.rfparts.com/bird.html 


I did come across the fol. $695 AEA-140-525 Antenna Tester, which might

get the job done (I didn't see a manual available for download), except it

only covers the Hi-VHF and lower half of the UHF TV bands. With a very

low output of +5 dBm (3 mW), it might even be legal outdoors:
http://www.aeatechnology.com/products/swr/140-525 

AEA also makes 600-999 MHz Cellmate EX and 100 kHz - 54 MHz VIA models:
http://www.aeatechnology.com/swr-meter/ 


Since it's a 50-ohm device, you'll also need a 50-to-75-ohm Low Loss Pad.

PS: Antenna Under Test needs to be mounted well away from other objects,

otherwise you'll be measuring reflections more than actual SWR.


Network Analyzers and some Spectrum Analyzers can measure Forward

Power and Reverse (Return) Loss, from which SWR can be calculated.

Unfortunately, they cost 10's of thousands of dollars new and several $1000 used.

Which puts them out of the reach of amateurs.....and even many pros,

who rely on electronic rental companies to bring the cost down....


From time to time I've see DIY projects for a Ham Radio "SWR Bridge",

which could be readily adapted for TV and FM Band if someone has the

requisite skilzzz....but I wouldn't undertake this redesign effort without

having access to the above expensive test equipment to verify the design:
http://ludens.cl/Electron/swr/swr.html 
http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/appendixF.html#10 
http://pe2er.nl/wifiswr/


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *fireflimoon* /forum/post/22046078
> 
> 
> Was wondering if people measure the SWR on their home built antennas to see how well the build went? Buying an SWR meter seems a little pricey and I guess if it works then why sweat the details right - but I'm just wondering if there are simple ways of checking on the efficiency of the antenna and whether it is performing as it should.



As holl_ands said, there are SWR analyzers available, but they are mostly for 50 ohm lines. Using a minimum loss pad to match 50 to 75 ohms works, but you still can't read 75 ohm SWR directly, because the bridge is designed for 50 ohms.


It's OK, for example, to use the pad to connect a 75 ohm antenna to the 50 ohm input of a spectrum analyzer for field strength measurements, because you can allow for the loss of the pad. But, for SWR measurements the antenna must be connected directly to the bridge or network analyzer.


You can use a SWR analyzer that gives a reading for SWR and for impedance/resistance (like MFJ). The SWR reading will be off by a factor of the difference between 50 and 75 ohms, but the impedance might be helpful.


The least expensive way for an antenna experimenter would be to construct a return loss bridge for 75 ohms and use a signal generator for the signal source to drive the bridge. I have thought of that as a project for myself, but it is way down on the list of things I need to do.


The last 3 links in the post above by *holl_ands* show some examples, but you must modify any 50 ohm designs for 75 ohms.


> Quote:
> .....but I wouldn't undertake this redesign effort without
> 
> having access to the above expensive test equipment to verify the design.....



Your construction can be checked by substituting a type F 75 ohm terminating resistor for the antenna under test.


Google return loss bridge:
www.vk2zay.net/article/179 
w7zoi.net/testgear/rlb.pdf 
http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/rlb/index.html 


The setup would consist of a signal source, the bridge, a detector, and your antenna. The SWR can easily be derived from the return loss figure.

http://unicornelex.com/black-forest-...ridge-kit.aspx 
unicornelex.com/widebanddbmmeterkit.aspx 


Keep in mind that the SWR is going to vary a lot as you tune through the frequency range. It will change much faster for a yagi antenna than for an inherently broadband antenna like the bowtie. In both cases it will only behave well at its design frequency, and will increase as you move away from the design frequency. When you look at the SWR curves from modeling by *holl_ands*, *300ohm*, and others, you can see how much the SWR changes through the frequency range.


I have avoided needing to use a 75 ohm SWR bridge by setting up two antennas with an A/B switch. One antenna is my reference antenna with known performance, and the other antenna is the one under test. Using the switch and a SLM (signal level meter) I can tell right away which gives more signal output on any particular channel.


Isn't that what you really want to know?

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...&postcount=221


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I have avoided needing to use a 75 ohm SWR bridge by setting up two antennas with an A/B switch. One antenna is my reference antenna with known performance, and the other antenna is the one under test. Using the switch and a SLM (signal level meter) I can tell right away which gives more signal output on any particular channel.
> 
> 
> Isn't that what you really want to know?



You would also want to know at least one more thing, the waveform of the signal from a scope. Even though the signal output from one antenna is greater than another, its waveform could be so distorted as to be unusable. High SWR antennas can distort the clean waveform needed.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> You would also want to know at least one more thing, the waveform of the signal from a scope. Even though the signal output from one antenna is greater than another, its waveform could be so distorted as to be unusable.



I'm not sure what kind of scope you have in mind. If you mean an oscilloscope that has enough bandwidth at that RF frequency, I don't understand what it would tell me. Please enlighten me.


If you mean the display on a spectrum analyzer, then it might tell me something about multipath if the waveform didn't have a flat top. Trip discovered that his meter display showed a good waveform at his new location , but he had a serious multipath problem that prevented good reception of his local channels.


The best way to aim an antenna in a serious multipath situation is to monitor signal quality using BER (bit error rate/ratio) rather than signal strength, which *brycenesbitt* found out .


> Quote:
> High SWR antennas can distort the clean waveform needed.



I respectfully disagree. High SWR only causes loss, which you are aware of from modeling.


----------



## holl_ands

High...and even moderate SWR can distort the digital ATSC waveform, as signals

mimic multipath bouncing up and down the coax downlead (Preamp's not so much).

EVM (Error Vector Magnitude) is a measurement of the amount of distortion:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show....php?p=1303957 


Technically speaking, the digital decision "eye pattern" becomes very noisy,

as the 8 VSB amplitude levels become very indistinct, since the SWR reflections

are mis-aligned in time to the primary signal. Dr. O Bendov describes this as

so many dB of Noise Figure degradation, which is somewhat of a misnomer....


Bear in mind that, in a perfect world, ATSC needs more than 15 dB SNR

if the Noise is truly Random, which corresponds to an SWR of about 1.4.

Fortunately the "multipath" bouncing up and down the coax isn't Random,

and the Tuner isn't affected until seeing the TWICE reflected signal (down,

up and back down), which is about 7.5 dB each way or SWR of about 2.5.

So ATSC actually tolerates a significantly higher SWR....I try for under 2.7.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> High...and even moderate SWR can distort the digital ATSC waveform



I didn't know it was that fragile.










Can we please go back to analog!










Thanks, holl_ands.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I'm not sure what kind of scope you have in mind. If you mean an oscilloscope that has enough bandwidth at that RF frequency, I don't understand what it would tell me. Please enlighten me.



Like the kind of scope this guy uses:
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/columns/...ruary-2009.php 


Keep in mind, NONE of the waveforms on that page are perfect. But hey, its NYC on indoor antennas, heh.


----------



## rabbit73

Ah, yes.


Peter Putnam is using arxaw's favorite RS indoor antenna and a BK Precision 2625 spectrum analyzer, which shows the amplitude of the signal across the channel. The ragged traces don't prove to me that the problem is high SWR, it looks more like what I would expect from multipath reflections when using an indoor antenna in an urban location.


So how can the average guy use that information to test and aim his antenna if he can't afford expensive test equipment?


We get a lot of people coming here with reception problems. Is there any advice that we can give them that we are not already doing?


I still think that using an A/B switch to compare two antennas is a valid, relatively inexpensive, test to see which antenna is better. If the output of the switch is connected to a tuner, it will tell you which antenna is better no matter whether the problem is gain, location, beamwidth between 3dB points, multipath reflections, SNR, F to B/R, or high SWR.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/22049736
> 
> 
> Like the kind of scope this guy uses:
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/columns/...ruary-2009.php
> 
> 
> Keep in mind, NONE of the waveforms on that page are perfect. But hey, its NYC on indoor antennas, heh.



I think you have to be very careful about drawing any conclusions about the performance of an antenna based on the waveforms seen at any one location. The waveform seen is the result of the transmitter antenna response (often not flat if you're not in the main lobe), what obstacles may lie in the path to you, and the response of the receive antenna at the location it is placed to the many reflections inside a building (or outside). I'll bet those displays would change a lot if the antenna was moved.


I have a spectrum analyzer and what I've found out is that non-LOS signals are constantly changing on all time scales.


I made a couple of animations of KGO on RF 7 which is 110 miles from here.


The first one shows how the display changes as the signal gets stronger.

http://images.aa6g.org/AVSForums/KGO_Animation.gif 


The second is a series of images over a couple minutes when the signal is weak (most unstable) and what happens when a plane causes multipath.

http://images.aa6g.org/AVSForums/KGO-Animation-3.gif 


Lastly, attached is an image of KSCO on RF 3 which is LOS here but I'm off the back of their antenna. This is an extreme example of what often happens when you're not in the main lobe of a station's transmit antenna. That still manages to produce an SNR of 26 dB. It's very common for the signal to vary with frequency.


Chuck


----------



## rabbit73

Chuck:


Thanks for the screen shots and neat animation.


Very helpful.


> Quote:
> I think you have to be very careful about drawing any conclusions about the performance of an antenna based on the waveforms seen at any one location.



I agree.


----------



## Pete-N2

 http://images.aa6g.org/AVSForums/KGO-Animation-3.gif 


What is that pulse of energy on the left edge of the display that appears and disappears?


Any idea what multi-path looks like?


Thanks


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/22049637
> 
> 
> High...and even moderate SWR can distort the digital ATSC waveform, as signals
> 
> mimic multipath bouncing up and down the coax downlead (Preamp's not so much).
> 
> EVM (Error Vector Magnitude) is a measurement of the amount of distortion:
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show....php?p=1303957



Thanks for the link to the DHC thread, and in particular to your links in post #716. I have looked at those references and they seem to focus on the SWR between the transmitter PA and antenna which can reduce the SNR/MER below the 27 dB required by the FCC for a transmitted signal.


I think it is a mistake to use the antenna reciprocity theorm to assume that what goes on the in receiver's feedline is equivalent to that in the transmitter's feedline. The signal that comes from the transmitting antenna is sinusoidal (analog.....like NTSC).


An increase in the SWR in the receiving feedline causes an additional lineloss that is of the same nature as the inherent coax loss at that frequency and is added to that loss. Both increase the system NF and cause a reduction in SNR which requires a stronger signal to maintain the minimum required SNR.


A multipath problem that shows on the spectrum analyzer as a ragged signal also requires a stronger signal to maintain the minimum SNR between the dips and the noise floor in order for the equalizer to compensate, if it can.


> Quote:
> Technically speaking, the digital decision "eye pattern" becomes very noisy,
> 
> as the 8 VSB amplitude levels become very indistinct, since the SWR reflections
> 
> are mis-aligned in time to the primary signal. Dr. O Bendov describes this as
> 
> so many dB of Noise Figure degradation, which is somewhat of a misnomer....


*OK, you've got me hooked, holl_ands.*


What kind of a test can I devise to prove Dr. Bendov's theory?


Would it be sufficient to insert a section of coax in the feedline with an impedance much higher or lower than 75 ohms to give a SWR mismatch of 4 to 1, or is there a better way to do it?


----------



## retiredengineer

Agree with the screen shots. Based on your experience, if my TV shows a signal is present because of the AGC levels but I get no display, does that indicate that if I move my antenna to different locations, there is a good chance I will get a display? The AGC level is about the same as stations I can receive.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pete-N2* /forum/post/22051570
> 
> 
> Any idea what multi-path looks like?



It looks like this:
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~wn17/ 


Note that there are two pages.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *retiredengineer* /forum/post/22051611
> 
> 
> .....if my TV shows a signal is present because of the AGC levels but I get no display, does that indicate that if I move my antenna to different locations, there is a good chance I will get a display? The AGC level is about the same as stations I can receive.



Yes, probably. It sounds like the multipath reflections are too much for your tuner to handle for that particular channel.


It is possible to have a strong signal that can not be decoded by the tuner if the errors caused by the multipath reflections exceed the capability of the error correction system (FEC). Trip proved that at his location in TN.


What are your AGC numbers? Does it give signal strength derived from AGC or does it give SNR? You need at least 15.5 dB SNR to decode a digital signal.


----------



## Pete-N2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/22051727
> 
> 
> It looks like this:
> http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~wn17/
> 
> 
> Note that there are two pages.



Thanks, very educational and I got a good laugh out of page 2.


"Honey, would you get upset if I mounted a garbage can to the chimney?"


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pete-N2* /forum/post/22051570
> 
> http://images.aa6g.org/AVSForums/KGO-Animation-3.gif
> 
> 
> What is that pulse of energy on the left edge of the display that appears and disappears?



I listened to it on my ham transceiver and it sounds like packet radio. It's a bunch of different transmitters that make short transmissions. It's on about 173.3 MHz.


Chuck


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/22051727
> 
> 
> It looks like this:
> http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~wn17/
> 
> 
> Note that there are two pages.



What were the SNR numbers for the unshielded antenna and the two shielded versions?


Chuck


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *retiredengineer* /forum/post/22051611
> 
> 
> Agree with the screen shots. Based on your experience, if my TV shows a signal is present because of the AGC levels but I get no display, does that indicate that if I move my antenna to different locations, there is a good chance I will get a display? The AGC level is about the same as stations I can receive.



That would be my experience. Are you using a Sony? That's the only TV I know of that displays AGC numbers. I've found it to be a fairly reliable indicator of the minimum signal strength required to decode a signal as long as there is no co-channel or adjacent channel interference.


Chuck


----------



## rabbit73

Chuck:


> Quote:
> What were the SNR numbers for the unshielded antenna and the two shielded versions?



It's only implied by the divisions on the screen.


I'm having a hard time reading the numbers on Bill Naivar's TEK 2715 SA display. He claims 2 dB more gain with the can, but I can't make it out. I guess you would have to e-mail him.



> Quote:
> That's the only TV I know of that displays AGC numbers. I've found it to be a fairly reliable indicator of the minimum signal strength required to decode a signal as long as there is no co-channel or adjacent channel interference.



I really like the Diagnostics Screen on my SONY KDL22L5000.


AA6G.....neat call. Did you know Mark, W6AKG?


----------



## retiredengineer

@Calaveras, Yes my TV is a Sony. @rabbit73, don't know how my AGC numbers are derived. I do know 100% is shown when I tune an empty channel, and it goes down from there. Most of the stations I receive show 35% to 50%.


Thanks to you both for your replies.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pete-N2* /forum/post/22051570
> 
> 
> Any idea what multi-path looks like?



I don't think you can reliably see multipath on a spectrum analyzer. One of my strongest stations has a very flat analyzer trace but ranks among the lowest for SNR. Variance in amplitude across the analyzer trace does not automatically mean multipath.


There are DTV analyzers that will show multipath.


Chuck


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/22052587
> 
> 
> Chuck:
> 
> It's only implied by the divisions on the screen.
> 
> 
> I'm having a hard time reading the numbers on Bill Naivar's TEK 2715 SA display. He claims 2 dB more gain with the can, but I can't make it out. I guess you would have to e-mail him.



There's no doubt that the appearance of the signal on the analyzer improved with the shielding but unless that translates into an improved SNR then the shielding is not doing what you think it is doing. Without knowing the SNR in the 3 configurations it's not possible to draw any SNR conclusions which is really only what counts in DTV reception. Can you run those tests with your Sony connected?



> Quote:
> I really like the Diagnostics Screen on my SONY KDL22L5000.
> 
> 
> AA6G.....neat call. Did you know Mark, W6AKG?



The diagnostics are very helpful when you know what the numbers mean. I wish all TVs had that. It would sure help us troubleshoot the many reception problems that appear here.


I didn't know W6AKG.


Chuck


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Can you run those tests with your Sony connected?



I would like to try an experiment like that, but I didn't do those tests to reduce urban multipath by putting an antenna in a shielded enclosure. Credit goes to Bill Naivar at Georgia Tech in Atlanta for his novel solution.



> Quote:
> ...but unless that translates into an improved SNR then the shielding is not doing what you think it is doing.



Yes, exactly


The shielding that he used probably did improve the SNR, but more importantly it reduced the errors from multipath so that the FEC capacity was not exceeded. That's why I think that monitoring BER is better than signal strength when aiming an antenna.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21754233


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/22052720
> 
> 
> The shielding that he used probably did improve the SNR, but more importantly it reduced the errors from multipath so that the FEC capacity was not exceeded. That's why I think that monitoring BER is better than signal strength when aiming an antenna.
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21754233



I read through your post. I think you'd be better off aiming for highest SNR when the strongest signal and highest SNR don't correspond. The reason I say this is because (from what I've read) that the corrected errors go to zero above an SNR of 20 dB but the SNR can keep going up. To put it another way, zero errors doesn't necessarily equal the highest signal quality.


I've run BER tests in the lab on BPSK through 256QAM signals and it only takes a signal increase of 1 dB to go from a non-zero BER to a BER of zero. Of course that non-zero BER might be in the range of 10E-6.










Sounds to me that when you moved your 4221 and saw a large increase in signal quality, that was because you were able to place a major reflection in an antenna null. I don't have any information on how common that situation is. All I can say is that is never the situation here since I have hundreds of reflections coming from a 60 degree swath of terrain east of me. It wouldn't surprise me to find out if most people have to deal with multiple reflections.


Chuck


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> I read through your post. I think you'd be better off aiming for highest SNR when the strongest signal and highest SNR don't correspond.



Yes, I agree that SNR is an important figure of merit for an antenna. What I had in mind with my previous post is when there is a multipath problem that challenges the FEC, then BER becomes equally important.


I had a discussion on the *TV Fool Discussion Thread* about antenna gain, saying:


> Quote:
> The gain of the antenna is added to the NM because it improves the SNR.


 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post15698511 post #393

*Nitewatchman* answered me saying:


> Quote:
> Well, the way I look at it, TVfool's predictions are predictions of signal strength, not SNR. The gain of antenna is added to the NM because it increases signal strength.


 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post15698876 post #394


An antenna with more gain does indeed increase the signal strength, but so does a preamp.


The difference between the two is that the preamp increases the signal strength and the noise plus adding some noise of its own, but the antenna with more gain increases the signal strength without adding noise resulting in an improved SNR.


The post by Andy Lee about *Visual explanation of Noise Margin* is interesting:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post15700679 #397



> Quote:
> All I can say is that is never the situation here since I have hundreds of reflections coming from a 60 degree swath of terrain east of me.



You do have an unusual situation that requires a very high F to B for your antenna.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/22051595
> 
> 
> Thanks for the link to the DHC thread, and in particular to your links in post #716. I have looked at those references and they seem to focus on the SWR between the transmitter PA and antenna which can reduce the SNR/MER below the 27 dB required by the FCC for a transmitted signal.
> 
> 
> I think it is a mistake to use the antenna reciprocity theorm to assume that what goes on the in receiver's feedline is equivalent to that in the transmitter's feedline. The signal that comes from the transmitting antenna is sinusoidal (analog.....like NTSC).
> 
> 
> An increase in the SWR in the receiving feedline causes an additional lineloss that is of the same nature as the inherent coax loss at that frequency and is added to that loss. Both increase the system NF and cause a reduction in SNR which requires a stronger signal to maintain the minimum required SNR.
> 
> 
> A multipath problem that shows on the spectrum analyzer as a ragged signal also requires a stronger signal to maintain the minimum SNR between the dips and the noise floor in order for the equalizer to compensate, if it can.
> *OK, you've got me hooked, holl_ands.*
> 
> 
> What kind of a test can I devise to prove Dr. Bendov's theory?
> 
> 
> Would it be sufficient to insert a section of coax in the feedline with an impedance much higher or lower than 75 ohms to give a SWR mismatch of 4 to 1, or is there a better way to do it?



Dr Bendov and I believe in Reciprocity...but I understand your

reluctance to blindly accept anything without PROOF....


If you pursue the "wrong" impedance coax, it probably should be the SAME LENGTH

as the "correct" impedance coax to replicate the multipath bouncing back and forth.

I'm not so sure you're going to find coax with the requisite impedance....


You might compare to an antenna with a KNOWN BAD SWR, such as the way too

small U-TUBE 4-Bay Bowtie and see if there is "Excessive Noise Figure", which

would be fairly difficult to PROVE in an Apples vs Pommes de Terre (Potatoes)

antenna comparison: http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bay/utube 


Alternatively, you could use a 1:1 Coax Balun instead of the usual 4:1 Balun

[could be Coax] with a known GOOD SWR antenna and see if the Noise Figure

degrades when a 300-ohm antenna is terminated in 75-ohms (4.0 SWR).

This would be a better Apples vs Candy Apples comparison....

But you'll need to use very weak stations to see NF degradation,

and you should conduct the test for multiple channels and perhaps also

perhaps multiple antennas to verify repeatability....


----------



## rabbit73

*holl_ands*:


Thanks for the tips about what would be suitable test.


> Quote:
> But you'll need to use very weak stations to see NF degradation,
> 
> and you should conduct the test for multiple channels and perhaps also
> 
> perhaps multiple antennas to verify repeatability....



Yes, I plan to use weak signals and also an attenuator just before a splitter that feeds two tuners and a signal level meter to bring the signal to the cliff and be able to monitor signal strength, SNR, and errors.


This will enable me to see where dropout happens (in dBmV and dBm) with the two antenna systems.


When the NF is greater, then dropout should happen sooner at a higher signal level because the noise floor is now higher. Or, to put it another way, the system that has the largest margin-to-dropout is the better system.


> Quote:
> If you pursue the "wrong" impedance coax, it probably should be the SAME LENGTH
> 
> as the "correct" impedance coax to replicate the multipath bouncing back and forth.
> 
> I'm not so sure you're going to find coax with the requisite impedance....



Four pieces of coax in parallel might do it.



> Quote:
> ....but I understand your reluctance to blindly accept anything without PROOF....



Thanks for understanding; I've been burned too many times.


----------



## holl_ands

When trying to align a high gain antenna, it's difficult to find the narrow "sweet spot",

esp. if you rely on a friend to shout out directions....and/or you're poking around the attic

looking for that elusive spot that has barely a sniff of a signal to begin with.....


So I find Laptop PC with an ATSC USB Stick Tuner to be an essential test tool....

Or a CECB Box with a small luggable TV.....at the end of a very long extension cord....


I've found that (FREE) TSReader Lite will display Bit Error Rate statistics when SNR

is well below 15 dB ATSC Threshhold for reception, widening the "search area":
http://www.tsreader.com/tsreader/index.html 


NOTE: TSReader only works with a small number of ATSC PCI Cards & USB Sticks:
http://www.tsreader.com/tsreader/hardware.html 

Be sure to skip past the DVB-S (Satellite) and DBV-T (Euro TV) sections until

you reach the Terrestrial (ATSC) section....Unfortunately, it appears that the

Hauppauge WinTV HVR-950 and HVR-950Q are the ONLY compatible USB Sticks.


(FREE) VLC Player is used to actually display the video derived from the decoded

MPEG2 data steam. Search to find one of the many download websites.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Unfortunately, it appears that the
> 
> Hauppauge WinTV HVR-950 and HVR-950Q are the ONLY compatible USB Sticks.



Not so bad, as those two models are one of the better USB tuner sticks with a 6th gen tuner.

Before I gave mine away as a gift, (I had to test it to make sure it worked OK, ya know) it was very comparable in sensitivity to my Zenith CECB box.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/22053389
> 
> 
> The post by Andy Lee about *Visual explanation of Noise Margin* is interesting:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post15700679 #397



This is very good.


I put together a spreadsheet that I use to calculate System Noise Figure. It's just a fancy way to do a 2nd stage noise figure calculation but it's easy to change the numbers around to optimize your system.

http://images.aa6g.org/System_NF.xls 


The graph is helpful because you can determine at-a-glance if your preamp has too much gain or not enough. If the preamp gain is too low then the line will be straight with little or no flattening at the bottom. If the line is flat at the bottom then the preamp has too much gain and you'll increase the possibility of overload. The default numbers entered are the parameters for my existing system at channel 51.


The table let's you experimentally determine noise margin using fixed attenuators or a step attenuator at the TV when you have a preamp installed at the antenna. The accuracy of this is dependent on the accuracy of the numbers you entered.


Chuck


----------



## rabbit73

Chuck:


Thanks for the information and link about your System Noise Figure spreadsheet. That looks interesting and useful.


Have you seen the first post in the DHC *Signal Amplifiers (Amps, Preamps, Distro Amps)* thread? It lists:


1. tczernec's Loss Calculator Spreadsheet

2. majortom's Cascaded Noise Figure Spreadsheet

3. Preamplifier Comparison Chart by holl_ands

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=42426 


When I described my discussion with Nitewatchman in post #14915, you could see that I was aware of the importance of SNR when evaluating an antenna system back in Jan '09. That reminded me of something that I had read on the DTVForum.info, which is the Australian version of AVS:


> Quote:
> If your antenna installer doesn't have a signal meter that reads BER and MER, get one who does.



The consenus in Australia seems to be that a "certified antenna installer" needs to have a signal meter that reads signal strength, BER, and MER (similar to SNR) to do a proper installaton.


> Quote:
> .....a step attenuator at the TV when you have a preamp installed at the antenna.....



My step attenuator is one of my favorite tools for making measurements, as you can tell from the link in my signature.


----------



## retiredengineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/22052634
> 
> 
> I don't think you can reliably see multipath on a spectrum analyzer. One of my strongest stations has a very flat analyzer trace but ranks among the lowest for SNR. Variance in amplitude across the analyzer trace does not automatically mean multipath.
> 
> 
> There are DTV analyzers that will show multipath.
> 
> 
> Chuck



Looking at your animations you posted, I noticed there are ATSC pilot signals at the beginning of the 6 MHz spectrum. The rest of the spectrum is suppose to be noise-like due to the pseudorandom modulation. The pilot is the unmodulated carrier at a reduced value.


Is it possible to just measure the RF power of the pilot and try to maximize it by moving the antenna to different locations? Max power would indicate minimum multipath interference. What do you think?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *retiredengineer* /forum/post/22057559
> 
> 
> Is it possible to just measure the RF power of the pilot and try to maximize it by moving the antenna to different locations? Max power would indication minimum multipath interference. What do you think?



It's easy to measure the pilot with the spectrum analyzer and certainly you can point the antenna by measuring the pilot. In most cases I think you'll find the highest SNR occurs in the peak direction. Occasionally there are exceptions to this.


Chuck


----------



## rabbit73

holl_ands & 300ohm:


Thanks for the tips on some useful tools to make my measurements more accurate and consistent.


> Quote:
> .....Or a CECB Box with a small luggable TV....



Got that. I have an Apex DT502 which isn't a very good CECB in general (it locks up on ION stations, you can't add a channel after scan, and ota.dt.man's box died on him), but it does have dual signal bars that give consistent signal quality and strength readings. I can see the reduction in quality as I approach the cliff and dropout happens about the same time as with my SONY KDL22L5000.


> Quote:
> I find Laptop PC with an ATSC USB Stick Tuner to be an essential test tool.....it appears that the Hauppauge WinTV HVR-950 and HVR-950Q are the ONLY compatible USB Sticks.....those two models are one of the better USB tuner sticks with a 6th gen tuner.....it was very comparable in sensitivity to my Zenith CECB box.



I have resisted the urge to add a computer to my measurement system because I don't like them very much and only tolerate them for what they allow me to learn about DTV.


> Quote:
> I've found that (FREE) TSReader Lite will display Bit Error Rate statistics when SNR is well below 15 dB ATSC Threshhold for reception, widening the "search area"



You got my attention with that one, because I don't have any equipment that will do that. All of my tuners stop giving me information when they can't decode. My SLM, however, will still continue give me signal strength readings below dropout if I add a preamp to it.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/22057527
> 
> 
> Have you seen the first post in the DHC *Signal Amplifiers (Amps, Preamps, Distro Amps)* thread? It lists:
> 
> 
> 1. tczernec's Loss Calculator Spreadsheet
> 
> 2. majortom's Cascaded Noise Figure Spreadsheet
> 
> 3. Preamplifier Comparison Chart by holl_ands



They look similar to mine except I added the graph and table which I think are helpful.



> Quote:
> The consenus in Australia seems to be that a "certified antenna installer" needs to have a signal meter that reads signal strength, BER, and MER (similar to SNR) to do a proper installation.



IMO measuring BER is overkill. Uncorrected BER is inversely proportional to SNR and almost every TV will give some version of SNR even if it's only a 0-100% Signal Quality bar.



> Quote:
> My step attenuator is one of my favorite tools for making measurements, as you can tell from the link in my signature.



I used to hunt for these at the electronic flea market in the south Bay Area. I've got one for 75 ohms and two for 50 ohms and a bunch of fixed attenuators and dummy loads.


Chuck


----------



## Larry Kenney

I'm finding this discussion very interesting, but I'm lost on two abbreviations. What are BER and MER? I've never heard of them before.


Also, Holl_lands wrote:

"NOTE: TSReader only works with a small number of ATSC PCI Cards & USB Sticks:
http://www.tsreader.com/tsreader/hardware.html 

... Unfortunately, it appears that the Hauppauge WinTV HVR-950 and HVR-950Q are the ONLY compatible USB Sticks."


It also works well with the Fusion HDTV USB stick.


Larry

SF


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/22058489
> 
> 
> I'm finding this discussion very interesting, but I'm lost on two abbreviations. What are BER and MER? I've never heard of them before.
> 
> 
> Also, holl_ands wrote:
> 
> "NOTE: TSReader only works with a small number of ATSC PCI Cards & USB Sticks:
> http://www.tsreader.com/tsreader/hardware.html
> 
> ... Unfortunately, it appears that the Hauppauge WinTV HVR-950 and HVR-950Q are the ONLY compatible USB Sticks."
> 
> 
> It also works well with the Fusion HDTV USB stick.
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF



In ATSC, MPEG2 data packets or "messages" are transmitted in 186-byte

data groups, each with a 20-byte Reed-Solomon Parity Check Code. Hence:

*DETECTED MER* (Message Error Rate) refers to how often these 1488-bit

packets failed the R-S Parity Check.

*CORRECTED MER* refers to how often packets failed R-S Parity Check but

the R-S Correction Algorithm _THINKS_ it fixed all of the detected bit errors.

[Reed-Solomon typically corrects up to 20-bytes out of each 186-byte "message".]

*UNCORRECTED MER* can NOT be determined except when a known test data

pattern is transmitted. These are the errors that a viewer actually "sees" (or hears).


ATSC Pass/Fail Criteria has been established as 3 x 10^-6 BER (Bit Error Rate),

which is an average of one bit error in 0.33 Million Bits....or ABOUT one

sound and/or video "glitch" in 222 messages....which is about the point that

ATSC reception become "minimally acceptable" (based on early engineering tests).


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney* /forum/post/22058489
> 
> 
> I'm finding this discussion very interesting, but I'm lost on two abbreviations. What are BER and MER? I've never heard of them before.



BER = Bit Error Rate


When a digitally signal is demodulated you expect to recover the same number that was transmitted. Noise added to or interference to the signal can cause the recovered number to be different from what was transmitted. That's an error and ATSC is designed to be able to fix a certain number of those. In my experience BER is the number of errors per second.


MER = Modulation Error Ratio


This is very similar to SNR but is tailored to a digitally modulated signal. SNR and MER are often used interchangeably even though there are subtle differences. There's somewhat more of an explanation here:

http://broadcastengineering.com/RF/b..._transmission/ 


Chuck


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/22061059
> 
> 
> *DETECTED MER* (Message Error Rate) refers to how often these 1488-bitpackets failed the R-S Parity Check.



I've never heard of MER meaning that. A Google search on "message error ratio" 8VSB returns no results.


Chuck


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/22061172
> 
> 
> I've never heard of MER meaning that. A Google search on "message error ratio" 8VSB returns no results.
> 
> 
> Chuck



That's because the manufacturers don't disclose the algorithm used to determine

their displayed "Signal Quality".....Detected MER is the primary parameter,

because it is readily available from the R-S Decoder...and does the job....


Reed-Solomon Codes (like most Error Detection and Correction Codes) will

provide a Decode Status for each Message, whether a) NO DETECTED ERRORS,

b) DETECTED xx-Symbols in Error and TRIED to FIX them or c) CAN'T FIX ERRORS.

Corrected MER is derived from b). Detected MER is derived from c).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed...ror_correction 
http://hscc.cs.nthu.edu.tw/~sheujp/lecture_note/rs.pdf


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/22061223
> 
> 
> That's because the manufacturers don't disclose the algorithm used to determine their displayed "Signal Quality".....Detected MER is the primary parameter, because it is readily available from the R-S Decoder...and does the job....



We seem to be talking across each other. My comment refers to the meaning of MER that everyone uses, not how manufacturers determine Signal Quality. Message Error Ratio for MER is used by nobody while Modulation Error Ratio is used by everybody. Larry was asking for the meaning of MER in the context of the current discussion.


Chuck


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands* /forum/post/22061223
> 
> 
> That's because the manufacturers don't disclose the algorithm used to determine their displayed "Signal Quality".....Detected MER is the primary parameter, because it is readily available from the R-S Decoder...and does the job....



It would be very difficult to construct a meaningful "Signal Quality" from R-S performance. The difference between 0 errors and totally unwatchable is only about 2 dB in signal to noise ratio. Here's a post I made a few years ago with some measurements made with a precision step attenuator and a demodulator evaluation board.


**********************************************************


I've found a brand new evaluation board for the ATI/AMD T316 8VSB and QAM demodulator chip. It come with a Windows User Interface that interacts with the board over USB. Here's what it looks like on my PC:











The UI controls the tuner and show if there is MPEG-2 frame lock. Separate windows show the demodulator status and AGC status. I'm also running a DVB-ASI capture program (Enensys DiviCatch) and VLC to decode the MPEG-2 Transport Stream from the eval card.


I took some measurements on my strongest signal, KNTV-DT on RF channel 12. Here's the results:
Code:


Code:


Attenuation   Equalizer S/N         AGC%       # of Pre RS errors/sec
0  dB             32.0              40            0
10 dB             32.0              40            0
20 dB             32.0              43            0
30 dB             30.5              52            0
40 dB             24.3              61            0
43 dB             22.1              64            0
46 dB             19.7              67


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/22061140
> 
> 
> BER = Bit Error Rate
> 
> 
> When a digitally signal is demodulated you expect to recover the same number that was transmitted. Noise added to or interference to the signal can cause the recovered number to be different from what was transmitted. That's an error and ATSC is designed to be able to fix a certain number of those. In my experience BER is the number of errors per second.
> 
> 
> MER = Modulation Error Ratio
> 
> 
> This is very similar to SNR but is tailored to a digitally modulated signal. SNR and MER are often used interchangeably even though there are subtle differences. There's somewhat more of an explanation here:
> 
> http://broadcastengineering.com/RF/b..._transmission/
> 
> 
> Chuck



My understanding of BER is the same as yours, but BER can mean Bit Error Rate or Bit Error Ratio. The terms are often used interchangeably, but that is not proper. Bit error rate is, as you said, the number of errors in a given period of time. Bit error ratio is the number of bit errors in a given total number of bits, and is usually expressed in scientific notation as in ATSC A74:


> Quote:
> A DTV receiver should achieve a bit error rate in the transport stream of no worse than 3x10E-6 (i.e., the FCC Advisory Committee on Advanced Television Service, ACATS, Threshold of Visibility, TOV) for input RF signal levels directly to the tuner from –83 dBm to –5 dBm for both the VHF and UHF bands.



As you can see, they are using a number that expresses bit error ratio, but they are calling it bit error rate.


My understanding of MER is also the same as yours and agrees with wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modulation_error_ratio 


Thanks for the interesting link from Broadcast Engineering. There is a section in that paper that expands on your answer to *retiredengineer* about measuring the pilot:


> Quote:
> One might be tempted to use the pilot level as a reference and infer the total average power from that point. Pilot level measured at the transmitter output can be an indicator of power level, but it is not a substitute for accurate power measurement. In the field, the pilot level can be affected by selective fading or cancellation and is therefore not a reliable indicator of received signal strength.


----------



## rabbit73

*dr1394*:


Thanks for your interesting post with the VLC Media Player screen shot and about using an attenuator at the cliff.


> Quote:
> The difference between 0 errors and totally unwatchable is only about 2 dB in signal to noise ratio. Here's a post I made a few years ago with some measurements made with a precision step attenuator and a demodulator evaluation board.



With my equipment I'm not able to monitor pre RS errors, only post, but with my 1 dB per step attenuator I also notice that it takes about 2 dB to go from nice picture to terrible. If we didn't have the FEC, we would notice the gradual loss of signal quality, but with the FEC we see a sudden loss of quality when it reaches its error limit.


My OTA signals vary in strength because there are trees in the path, so it is a bit difficult to manage the attenuation at the cliff in a smooth manner, making it necessary to repeat the test a few times for consistent results. I am, however, able to set up in my car at a remote area for LOS signals that come across the water with less variation in strength (except when a boat goes by!).


I have dreams about making an in-line attenuator before the step attenuator that would keep the signal a little more constant perhaps using an AGC circuit that drives a lamp in front of a light sensitive resistor that is in the shunt resistor of a 75 ohm T attenuator.


An 8VSB signal generator is not in my price class.


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/22061857
> 
> *dr1394*:
> 
> 
> Thanks for your interesting post with the VLC Media Player screen shot and about using an attenuator at the cliff.



Here's the original thread from 2009, with pictures of the evaluation board.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1122271 


The setup was antenna (and USB control) -> T316 evaluation board -> DVB-ASI -> Enensys DVB-ASI capture device -> USB to VLC player. I was playing the KNTV stream with VLC at the time, but when you take a screenshot of VLC, the video gets blacked out.


Ron


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> but when you take a screenshot of VLC, the video gets blacked out.



???


From the Video Lan documentation:


> Quote:
> Snapshot
> 
> 
> This option is useful if you want to capture a portion of the video as an image.
> 
> 1.Select Advanced File Open from the Media menu. The Open dialog box is displayed.
> 
> 2.Select a file and click VLC - play button.png Play.
> 
> 3.To capture an image from the video, select Snapshot from the Video menu.
> 
> 
> The image is captured in the .png picture format and is saved in the C:\\My Pictures folder by default (C:\\Users\\Username\\Pictures).



Then use a picture resizer to reduce the picture so it will fit on these bulletin boards.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> A DTV receiver should achieve a bit error rate in the transport stream of no worse than 3x10E-6
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/22061720
> 
> 
> As you can see, they are using a number that expresses bit error ratio, but they are calling it bit error rate.
Click to expand...


Actually that's not clear to me at all. When I was performing these measurements in the lab we'd just give the number as a kind of shorthand. The "/sec" part was always left out so I can't tell from above what they really mean. I just assumed what was meant was 3x10E-6/sec.


I also see a problem using R-S errors to determine SNR. If at 20 dB SNR (or whatever the number is) the errors go to zero, how do you calculate higher SNRs? It must be done another way.


Chuck


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dr1394* /forum/post/22061498
> 
> 
> It would be very difficult to construct a meaningful "Signal Quality" from R-S performance. The difference between 0 errors and totally unwatchable is only about 2 dB in signal to noise ratio. Here's a post I made a few years ago with some measurements made with a precision step attenuator and a demodulator evaluation board.



Just so I have this correct in my head once and for all.......


From your table above, the non-corrected R-S errors are essentially zero at an SNR of 20 dB, meaning the error correction system isn't doing anything. Between 20 dB and 15.2 dB the errors rise but the error correction system can handle those errors and produce what appears to be an error-free picture and sound. At 15.2 dB and lower SNRs there are too many errors to be corrected and the system collapses, or falls off the digital cliff as we like to call it. So the whole purpose of the error correction system is to extend the useable SNR from 20 dB to 15.2 dB.


Please correct me if I have anything wrong in my summary.


Chuck


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm* /forum/post/22063052
> 
> 
> ???
> 
> 
> From the Video Lan documentation:
> 
> 
> Snapshot...
> 
> 
> Then use a picture resizer to reduce the picture so it will fit on these bulletin boards.



I use the VLC "snapshot" function all the time. When I said "screenshot", I meant just hitting the PrtSc key to capture the entire desktop. I was trying to show all the demodulator windows in one picture. The other open windows (like VLC and the Enensys capture device) were just incidental. Also, that desktop is Windows XP in "Classic" theme.


Ron


----------



## dr1394




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/22063315
> 
> 
> Just so I have this correct in my head once and for all.......
> 
> 
> From your table above, the non-corrected R-S errors are essentially zero at an SNR of 20 dB, meaning the error correction system isn't doing anything. Between 20 dB and 15.2 dB the errors rise but the error correction system can handle those errors and produce what appears to be an error-free picture and sound. At 15.2 dB and lower SNRs there are too many errors to be corrected and the system collapses, or falls off the digital cliff as we like to call it. So the whole purpose of the error correction system is to extend the useable SNR from 20 dB to 15.2 dB.
> 
> 
> Please correct me if I have anything wrong in my summary.
> 
> 
> Chuck



You're close, but there's one more thing to know about. There are two levels of error correction. The first level is the Viterbi convolutional code, and the second level is the Reed-Solomon code. The demodulator application is not showing the amount of errors being corrected by the Viterbi code, only the RS code. Bit errors are starting to creep in an some higher S/N, but it's not being shown.


So your synopsis is correct, except that it's happening at two levels. First the Viterbi code extends the system S/N and then the RS code extends it even further.


In general, the Viterbi code does well with single bit errors, while the RS code is better for error bursts. At the same time, the bits going into the RS decoder are interleaved. That is, the bits that make up one 207 byte packet were not sent sequentially, but interleaved in time. This helps when there are noise bursts on the channel. Instead of the noise burst ending up in one or two packets, it's spread out into many packets.


Ron


----------



## fireflimoon

 http://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.ph...our_DVB_device for anyone interested in Linux related DVB and hardware


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: EVM (Error Vector Magnitude, a percentage) and MER (Magnitude Error Ratio, in dB)

definitions can be found on pages A-5 and A-6:
http://128.238.9.201/~kurt/manuals/m...00A%20User.pdf 


I've only seen EVM used in some (early) technical white papers, such as Tektronix's

"Signal to Noise Relationships for 8-VSB" and Dr. Bendov's re VSWR degradation:
http://e-sites2.tek.com/cmswpt/tidow...&ci=2238&lc=EN 


Sorry if I jumped to confusing MER....should have used R-S SER (Segment Error Rate),

although I try to reserve the use of SER for Symbol Error Rate. I also avoid using

Block Error Rate to avoid confusion with BER....


----------



## Dieter2

rabbit73 writes:

> An 8VSB signal generator is not in my price class.


I don't know what your price class is, the least expensive

8VSB modulator I know of is from
http://www.sr-systems.de/ 

Something on the order of 1000 Euros.


Nick Sayer uses one for a HAM TV station:
http://nsayer.blogspot.com/search/label/tv 


You can get a NTSC modulator for something like $10-15 at Target, K-Mart, etc.

8VSB modulators should not be so rare and expensive. *grumble*


----------



## rabbit73

*Chuck:*


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/22063237
> 
> 
> Actually that's not clear to me at all. When I was performing these measurements in the lab we'd just give the number as a kind of shorthand. The "/sec" part was always left out so I can't tell from above what they really mean. I just assumed what was meant was 3x10E-6/sec.



I'm probably being too picky, and it doesn't make much difference when everyone uses the same measurement expressions for comparisons, but let me try again to make the distinction between Bit Error Ratio and Bit Error Rate by using a car analogy:


RATIO: So far, I have driven 5 miles of the 100 miles to Richmond.

Notice there is no mention of how fast I'm driving, just as there is no mention of how fast the errors are happening in Bit Error Ratio.


RATE: I can drive 60 miles per hour when I travel to Richmond.

Notice that there is no mention of how many miles to Richmond, just as there is no mention of total bits in Bit Error Rate.


If I may quote authorities who are a lot smarter than I am:


Digital Communications Test and Measurement: High-Speed Physical Layer Characterization

by Dennis Derickson and Marcus Müller


Publication Date: December 20, 2007 | ISBN-10: 0132209101 | ISBN-13: 978-0132209106 | Edition: 1


Dennis Derickson is an assistant professor at California Polytechnic State University. He spent eighteen years as member of technical staff and project manager at Hewlett-Packard and Agilent Technologies before serving as applications engineering manager for Cierra Photonics. He has authored or coauthored fifty publications in high-speed communications and is the editor of Fiber Optic Test and Measurement (Prentice Hall, 1998). Dennis has a Ph.D. from the University of California, Santa Barbara.


Marcus Müller is an R&D lead engineer with Agilent Technologies' High-Speed Digital Test segment in Boeblingen, Germany. He specializes in bit error ratio and jitter analysis of high-speed links, and has contributed to new methods for total jitter measurement at low bit error ratios, and jitter tolerance test. Marcus received his M.Sc. degree from Stuttgart University, Germany, in 1999.


Chapter 4 (bit error ratio testing): A fundamental property of a digital communications link is the bit error ratio (BER), which is the number of bit errors divided by the total number of bits sent. This chapter along with Appendix A provides a detailed description of the test hardware and test methodology for BER. (Marcus Müller wrote this chapter.)



> Quote:
> The bit error ratio (BER) is a measure of the percentage of bits that a system does not transmit or receive correctly. It is a dimensionless number, ranging from 0.0 to 1.0: If the BER = 0.0, then all bits are transmited correctly; at the other extreme, if the BER = 1.0, every bit is received in error.
> 
> 
> The bit error ratio is calculated by dividing the number of erroneous bits by the number of compared bits.
> 
> 
> A second measure for the error performance of a digital transmission system is the bit error rate. It's different from the bit error ratio in that it relates the number of errors to the test time, rather than the number of bits compared during the test. Note that bit error rate is not dimensionless; its unit is errors per time.
> 
> 
> In everyday use bit error rate is more descriptive than the bit error ratio: A PCI Express link, for example has a target *ratio* of 10E-12. At the 2.5 Gbit/s data rate, that's an error *rate* of 0.025 errors per second.
> 
> *The terms bit error rate and bit error ratio are often mixed up in everyday usage, especially since the BER acronym is used for both. However, since the bit error rate is hardly used in practice these days, it is usually safe to assume that bit error ratio was intended.*



In a earlier post I said that ATSC A74 used a number for Bit Error Rate that was really Bit Error Ratio:


> Quote:
> A DTV receiver should achieve a bit error rate in the transport stream of no worse than 3x10E-6 (i.e., the FCC Advisory Committee on Advanced Television Service, ACATS, Threshold of Visibility, TOV) for input RF signal levels directly to the tuner from –83 dBm to –5 dBm for both the VHF and UHF bands.



As Marcus Müller said, Bit Error Ratios are dimensionless, which means that there are no units, so you shouldn't add per sec. The reason Bit Error Ratio is dimensionless is because when you divide error bits by total bits for the ratio, the bits units cancel according to math rules, and you are left with a small number divided by a large number which is conveniently expressed in scientific notation like, in this case, 3x10E-6.


In an earlier post *dr1394* conveniently showed us:


# of Pre RS errors/sec


----------



## retiredengineer

Following up about my comments about maximizing the ATSC pilot. From what I have read, the receiver needs to find the pilot signal first so that synchronous detection and subsequent processing can occur. Insufficient pilot signal strength due to multipath or fading means no display. @rabbit73, you said in a old, old post that you have a NTSC field strength meter. Would that detect and display the strength of the pilot signal only? I could use something similar to that to find the best location to install my antenna in order to receive weak signals.


----------



## rabbit73


*retiredengineer*:




> Quote:
> Would that detect and display the strength of the pilot signal only?



Not just the pilot only, but the pilot or any spot on the whole signal that you want.


When I use my old Sadelco 719E signal level meter (SLM, originally designed for analog signals but usable for digital) and manually tune through the 6 MHz 8VSB DTV signal, I notice a slight increase in signal stength at the lower end of the channel which is caused by the pilot.


I do not use the pilot for signal strength readings, I make a reading at center channel. My Sadelco DisplayMax 5000 SLM (designed for analog and digital, OTA & cable) also uses center channel for a reading of digital 8VSB & QAM.


The readings for NTSC signals are made, of course, at the picture and audio carrier frequencies.


My Sadelo DispalyMax 800 can read digital signals two ways:


1. It scans the digital channel and then gives an average power reading derived from many readings across the channel. The display looks a lot like a spectrum analyzer display, and I can see if the top of the signal is flat or not.

2. The second way is to tune the meter to center channel for a reading. This gives me a real-time reading without having to wait for a scan that can be used for immediate feedback to help aim an antenna for max signal. It only gives a relative reading in that mode, so after aiming I can switch to the scanning mode for an accurate power reading in dBmV. Besides giving immediate feedback in the single frequency mode, the meter is more sensitive then down to about -35 dBmV VS about -20 dBmV in the scanning mode. The meter refuses to give a reading below -20 dBmV in the scanning mode.


The attachments show you what the display on the 800 looks like.


If the signal has enough SNR to decode, then you will see the pilot. I don't see any point in focusing on measuring the pilot to the exclusion of the rest of the signal.


----------



## retiredengineer

Thanks for your response and displays. If I am in a weak signal location that doesn't decode, then I need an alternate method to find and optimize the signal. How can I find a strong signal if I can't even auto scan the signal into the tv's memory and tune to it? I don't need the tv or tuner to help find the strong signal. I look at the field strength meter tuned to the ATSC pilot as I walk around with my antenna like dowsing for water. Once found, that is where I plunk down my antenna and hope for the best. I need the ATSC pilot to properly receive the signal so that is where I am focusing.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> If I am in a weak signal location that doesn't decode, then I need an alternate method to find and optimize the signal.



How weak are your signals? What do your tvfool & fmfool reports look like?


What channel are your trying to get?


What equipment are you using for a tuner and antenna?


What signal level meter do you have?


Yes, the pilot is slightly stronger than the rest of the signal, but I'm not sure that it is going to make that much difference when hunting with a SLM. You could try adding a preamp to your SLM to increase its sensitivity and listen closer to the noise floor. That might not work if you have any strong signals that would overload the preamp and mask any weak signals. My 719E almost makes it down to -90 dBm without a preamp (the conversion factor between dBm and dBmV is 48.8).


You might need an instrument with greater sensitivity, like a spectrum analyzer that reads below -100 dBm so that you could see the signal rising above the noise floor even if it can't be decoded.
http://www.tequipment.net/RigolDSA815.html 
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/columns/...ruary-2009.php 


An alternate way might be to use a USB tuner, as mentioned previously by holl_ands , that can give a SNR reading of a weak signal to show you that it is there, even if it can't be decoded. You could locate your antenna in a spot that gives you the highest SNR reading even if it never makes it to 15.5 dB. Trip has also mentioned using that technique when he was at school.
http://www.hauppauge.com/site/produc...a_hvr950q.html 


IIRC, some people have said that the Zenith DTT900/901 CECB can show you the presence of a signal even it it can't be decoded, but I haven't tried that yet for myself. That technique is used by DXers who enter the channel number and wait for the tropo signal to arrive at their location.


I can't think of any more ideas right now; maybe some of the other guys can.


----------



## retiredengineer

Your points are valid but nowhere do you mention signals that have multipath distortion. I receive signals as one edge with significant multipath signals that causes multiple hot and cold spots. I don't think I have a flat 6 MHz spectrum. Instead numerous peaks and notches across the spectrum. What happens if a notch just happened to occur at the pilot frequency? No reception because the pilot frequency is required to synchronize the receiver's coherent detector. Moving the antenna might move the notch away from the pilot frequency allowing reception.


----------



## rabbit73

I find it difficult to give you an intelligent answer because you are withholding the specific information about your situation that I asked for. I had to hunt for it in your posts.


In cases where you have serious multipath reflections that cause the BER to increase, then it is necessary to monitor signal quality as well as signal strength.


If it is important to you to monitor the position of the notch, then a spectrum analyzer is necessary, just as it is to see signals that are above the noise floor but are, as you said, too weak to decode .


What model is your Sony? Does it show errors to monitor signal quality?

My Sony gives signal quality as errors per unit time, not percent.


Is it possible that the nearby high voltage lines are increasing your noise level?


11-7-11:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *retiredengineer* /forum/post/21180872
> 
> 
> Putting your antenna in the attic should not cause any problems. Any multipath present in the attic can easily be handled by the equalizer in the TV.
> 
> 
> I have my antennas (separate VHF and UHF antennas) in the attic and use a pre-amp and receive all local stations with no problem. I ran a TVFool analysis and I can receive KCET which has a signal power of -84 dBm which is lower than your values. Note that all my reception involve one edge paths which includes multipath.
> 
> 
> My TVFool results are:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...4bbabadb1bba15



10-6-11:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *retiredengineer* /forum/post/21047938
> 
> 
> I use two attic antennas (CM4221 and Y5-7-13) and I get all the local stations that are not low power. See my TVFool results for my location. All the local channels are not LOS, yet, I can still receive them and all my signal levels are lower than yours so you have a very good chance of receiving them with an attic antenna.



If it was good then, why is it suddenly bad now?


I see the hills in the KABC profile in the attachment. The expressways don't help either! Your location is pretty bad for OTA.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73* /forum/post/22070790
> 
> 
> If the signal has enough SNR to decode, then you will see the pilot. I don't see any point in focusing on measuring the pilot to the exclusion of the rest of the signal.



When looking a DTV signal on a spectrum analyzer the pilot doesn't change amplitude with different Resolution Bandwidths like the rest of the signal does. It looks like a CW signal while the rest of the signal looks like noise. The pilot is typically used to measure the signal strength on the analyzer. Of course this doesn't mean the rest of the signal is irrelevant. A signal can be undecodeable because any portion of the signal is too weak.


The pilot is also useful when doing antenna pattern measurements when the signal is very weak because you can measure the pilot in very narrow bandwidths when you can't see the rest of the signal.


Chuck


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *retiredengineer* /forum/post/22071225
> 
> 
> Moving the antenna might move the notch away from the pilot frequency allowing reception.



I've performed a few tests in marginal reception areas moving the antenna around over hundreds of feet. It's frequently possible to find an exact spot where the problem station could be received but it almost always made another station go away. It's very difficult to find a spot that's optimum for all the stations when you're in that sort of situation. The best solution seems to be to mount the antenna as high as possible and not be looking through any nearby trees.


Chuck


----------



## retiredengineer

rabbit73. Thank you for taking the time to answer my concerns. There are two reasons for my post. A new station has appeared (KHIZ that I want to receive but I can't) and I have a friend who is having trouble receiving the local stations as one edge even though he is close to the transmitter on Mt.Wilson. Being a retired engineer who wants to solve problems, I thought why not take a portable field strength meter, attach it to an antenna then survey his property for the best reception location. I just wanted feedback from the experts to see if it was feasible.


Here is my latest TVFool report. I still receive the local stations with the antennas in the attic despite having my cement shingles roof replaced with asphalt shingles. My latest challenge to myself now is to start receiving the low power stations. Thanks again for the replies.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...073b7b9469b626 


Calaveras, also thanks to you for your replies.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/22072329
> 
> 
> The pilot is also useful when doing antenna pattern measurements when the signal is very weak because you can measure the pilot in very narrow bandwidths when you can't see the rest of the signal.



That makes sense; thanks.


----------



## rabbit73

*retiredengineer*:


Thanks for the background information and new tvfool report. It gives me a better understanding of your situation.


I see KHIZ CH44 listed twice, but there is no indicator for co-channel by the callsign. Do you mean the KHIZ at 323 degrees or the one at 78 degrees?


> Quote:
> I have a friend who is having trouble receiving the local stations as one edge even though he is close to the transmitter on Mt.Wilson. Being a retired engineer who wants to solve problems, I thought why not take a portable field strength meter, attach it to an antenna then survey his property for the best reception location.



Ah, yes. If I were you I would want to practice my technique at home before going over there to make a good showing.


> Quote:
> I just wanted feedback from the experts to see if it was feasible.



I think it's feasible, but you haven't told me what signal level meter you will be using. You have a good chance of finding the signal with the meter, especially if you are able to add a preamp before the meter. With my old analog 719E meter with the audio turned on, digital signals sound like white noise that is stronger than the noise floor as I tune through them. The meter does show the signal even if it can't be decoded by the tuner.


Once you have found the signal there are two more problems to be solved.

1. Does the signal have a SNR greater than 15.5 dB?

2. Is the signal quality sufficient so that there aren't more errors than the FEC can handle?


As you saw from Trip's situation in TN, it is possible to have a strong signal with more than enough SNR but it still can't decode because of high BER. The scan from his meter didn't show a multipath problem, but that's what it was.


I think you will be able to determine if you have enough SNR, but measuring the errors is going to be a little more difficult. My Sadelco 5000 can measure BER and MER, but they are only emulated measurements using noise as a reference. If you can use the Sony diagnostics screen it will show you SNR in dB and errors, if it can decode.


I have found that my Apex DT502 CECB is useful when aiming an antenna because it has two signal bars, one for signal quality (the inverse of errors) and the other for signal strength. But, it only shows that information if the box can decode the signal, which is the same problem as the Sony.


Having your antenna in the attic gives you handicap. Your tvfool report assumes that your antenna is not in the attic. The attenuation caused by the attic can vary a lot, but must be measured by placing your antenna inside and outside to make two measurements to find the loss. Are you able to have an outside antenna, or is it mandatory that it be in the attic?


Do you think that using the Hauppauge WinTV HVR-950Q USB tuner with the TSReader Lite software, as suggested by holl_ands, would be of any help with your problem?


Can you borrow a spectrum analyzer?


----------



## Calaveras

The Sony error reading is pretty much useless because it only shows uncorrected errors and then only very close to 15.2 dB SNR.


I think what does a better job is the MyGo TV battery operated 7". It only has a signal quality meter but it gives a reading quite a bit below 15 dB SNR, I think until it can't phase lock on the pilot. It also has direct RF entry which is nice if you take it where you can receive different stations that aren't programmed in. Its built-in antenna is poor but it has an adapter for an external antenna. The tuner is nearly identical in performance to the one in my Sony except I don't think it's as good on low VHF but fine on high VHF.


Chuck


----------



## arxaw

Calaveras,

Do you have a model number for the MyGo TV?

Thanks


----------



## retiredengineer

Rabbit73, answers to your questions.


73: I see KHIZ CH44 listed twice. Do you mean the KHIZ at 323 degrees or the one at 78 degrees?


ME: The one at 323 deg. Where I live, KHIZ at 78 deg is shadowed by the nearby mountains. I think the one at 323 deg is an auxiliary transmitter that will be used to fill-in the shadow, hopefully soon.


ME: I have a friend who is having trouble receiving the local stations .... why not take a portable field strength meter, attach it to an antenna then survey his property for the best reception location.


73: Ah, yes. If I were you I would want to practice my technique at home before going over there to make a good showing.


ME: I agree, hate to fall flat on my face.


ME: I just wanted feedback from the experts to see if it was feasible.


73: I think it's feasible, but you haven't told me what signal level meter you will be using.


ME: The Display 800 you are using seems to be a good choice.


73: Once you have found the signal there are two more problems to be solved.

1. Does the signal have a SNR greater than 15.5 dB?


ME: Understand 15.5 dB is the minimum SNR for noise limited reception. A few dB has to be added if multipath is present.


2. Is the signal quality sufficient so that there aren't more errors than the FEC can handle? As you saw from Trip's situation in TN, it is possible to have a strong signal with more than enough SNR but it still can't decode because of high BER. The scan from his meter didn't show a multipath problem, but that's what it was.


ME: I am not under the delusion I can find the perfect location. Just wanted to eliminate a reception problem caused by a very weak signal. Solve one problem at a time.


73: Having your antenna in the attic gives you a handicap..... Are you able to have an outside antenna, or is it mandatory that it be in the attic?


ME: Outside, I can only mount an antenna on the chimney. At my age, I don't want to be on the roof with my fragile body. When I have the antenna in the attic, I could move the UHF antenna a few feet in different directions to see if it improves reception which it did. I fortunately didn't have to move the VHF antenna.


73: Do you think that using the Hauppauge WinTV HVR-950Q USB tuner with the TSReader Lite software, as suggested by holl_ands, would be of any help with your problem?


ME: It would if I had a powerful computer which I don't have. Just a 773 MHz computer running Windows XP SP2. Good for email and surfing.


73: Can you borrow a spectrum analyzer?


ME: No, but I wish I could.


Finally, appreciate your suggestions. Budget constraints and my wife forces me to consider the least costly solutions.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *arxaw* /forum/post/22073786
> 
> 
> Calaveras,
> 
> Do you have a model number for the MyGo TV?
> 
> Thanks



This is the link:

http://www.mygotv.com/products/porta...ld-digital-tv/ 


Looks like they've updated it from when I bought mine. Mine is ATSC and NTSC. Now it's ATSC and Clear QAM. I see it still has direct RF entry. I hope they haven't messed up how the signal meter works.


Chuck


----------



## arxaw

Much appreciated.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras* /forum/post/22072385
> 
> 
> I've performed a few tests in marginal reception areas moving the antenna around over hundreds of feet. It's frequently possible to find an exact spot where the problem station could be received but it almost always made another station go away. It's very difficult to find a spot that's optimum for all the stations when you're in that sort of situation. The best solution seems to be to mount the antenna as high as possible and not be looking through any nearby trees.
> 
> 
> Chuck



Indoors can be a reception problem. While an antenna can't be moved hundreds of feet, I've seen the same results you've found. The correct aim/location for one channel is not correct for others. To get Walnut Grove stations indoors here, the minimum number of antenna aims/locations is three.


2 antennas are better than 1. 3 or 4 antennas would be even better.


----------



## rabbit73

*Finding channels missed by tuner scan, Part 1 of 4*

Quote:
Originally Posted by *retiredengineer* 

Rabbit73, answers to your questions.

73: I see KHIZ CH44 listed twice. Do you mean the KHIZ at 323 degrees or the one at 78 degrees?

ME: The one at 323 deg. Where I live, KHIZ at 78 deg is shadowed by the nearby mountains. I think the one at 323 deg is an auxiliary transmitter that will be used to fill-in the shadow, hopefully soon.

Good; that one is easier.
Quote: 

ME: I just wanted feedback from the experts to see if it was feasible.

73: I think it's feasible, but you haven't told me what signal level meter you will be using.
ME: The Display 800 you are using seems to be a good choice.

Ooops! I thought you were going to use an old field strength meter.

Quote: Originally Posted by *retiredengineer* 

Following up about my comments about maximizing the ATSC pilot. From what I have read, the receiver needs to find the pilot signal first so that synchronous detection and subsequent processing can occur. Insufficient pilot signal strength due to multipath or fading means no display. @*rabbit73* , you said in a old, old post that you have a NTSC field strength meter. Would that detect and display the strength of the pilot signal only? I could use something similar to that to find the best location to install my antenna in order to receive weak signals.

I made a few tests today using my old Sadelco 719E (less expensive version of the FS-4 that I bought when I retired in 1988) that showed me it is possible to hunt for, detect, and measure the missing weak channels. It was necessary to use my CM7777 preamp to read the weak ones, but I was able to do that without preamp overload because my strongest signals are weak enough to avoid overload. I used my 719E because it makes it possible to turn the tuning knob through the channels manually, just like a spectrum analyzer automatically would during its scan.

Here are the two meters. The one on the left is the Sadelco 719E; the upper knob is for UHF, the lower for VHF-lo, FM, and VHF-hi. The one on the right is the DisplayMax 800. I repeated the image in the attachments in case the link to my image host is broken.










If you are going to use the Sadelco DisplayMax 800, you will not be able to manually tune slowly through the freqency range, it will be necessary to enter the desired frequency on the keypad. You can, however, hop thru the range in fixed frequency increments of 125 KHz; the measurement bandwidth is 280 KHz. If you are going to use the pilot (see attachments), that frequency is just above the lower edge of the channel:
Quote: 

The first “helper” signal is the ATSC pilot. Just before modulation, a small DC shift is applied to the 8-level baseband signal (which was previously centered about zero volts with no DC component). This causes a small residual carrier to appear at the zero frequency (unmodulated carrier) point of the resulting modulated spectrum. This is the ATSC pilot. This gives the RF PLL circuits in the DTV receiver something to lock onto that is independent of the transmitted data.
Although similar in nature, the ATSC pilot is much smaller than the NTSC visual carrier, consuming only 0.3 dB or 7 percent of the transmitted power.

Quote: 

The 8-VSB pilot is normally 309.441 kHz above the lower edge of the Channel assigned to the DTV transmitter, except when the DTV transmitter is required by the FCC to offset its Pilot Frequency in order to minimize interference caused to a lower adjacent Channel analog TV station.

Quote: 

.....the DTV pilot carrier, which is 0.31 MHz above the lower channel edge........It is 11.3 dB below average signal power.

There is another problem. With the 719E I am able to listen to the noise of the channel as I tune through it to see if it rises above the noise floor. I don't know how that will work with the 800, but will try some more tests with it to develop a measuring technique.

I will post the data from the first tests that used the analog meter when I have more time, followed by a report on using the 800.

If you try to buy an old used Sadelco meter, make sure you get one that does VHF and UHF. The ones described as VHF and Super don't do UHF.


----------



## 300ohm

Ah good, thanks, a perfect waveform example.



















> Quote:
> Looks like they've updated it from when I bought mine. Mine is ATSC and NTSC. Now it's ATSC and Clear QAM. I see it still has direct RF entry. I hope they haven't messed up how the signal meter works.



Does the signal meter on it display numbers or just a bar ?


----------



## rabbit73

*Finding channels missed by tuner scan, Part 2 of 4*

In earlier posts *retiredengineer* asked a very intelligent question: Is there any way to hunt for, and measure channels missed during a scan? If there is, then it would be possible to know if simple improvements would enable the tuner to decode the signals, or if reception is impossible at that location.

I told him that even if he was able to find those weak channels, they might not have sufficient SNR or signal quality (few errors) to be decoded by the tuner. He said that it would be sufficient for now just to be able to find and measure them, so I made some tests using the equipment that I have.

For the first test I connected my CM4221 antenna, which is outside close to ground level, to my Sadelco 719E signal level meter (SLM) with a short coax jumper (SCJ), and took some readings of my UHF channels.

CM4221 > SCJ > 719E SLM

For the second test I added the UHF section of my CM7777 preamp to see if I could read the weak channels.

CM4221 > SCJ > CM7777 > SCJ > CM0747 Power Supply > SCJ> 719E SLM


Code:


[B]SPACER[/B]
[B]Real      Test 1          Test 2      Amp Gain 
 RF           Equiv           Equiv
 CH    dBmV    dBm     dBmV    dBm       dB 
 16    -6.9   -55.7    +19.0  -29.8     25.9
  9   -10.2   -59.0    +13.1  -35.7     23.3  
 31   -12.2   -61.0    +12.1  -36.7     24.3
 33    -9.0   -57.8    +14.8  -34.0     23.8
 40    -9.0   -57.8    +15.1  -33.7     24.1 
 46   -19.9   -68.7     +6.2  -42.6     26.1
 50   -22.0   -70.8     +2.9  -45.9     24.9 
Amp Gain is the difference between the two tests 
and varies because the signal strengths changed 
between tests.[/B]
[B]SPACER[/B]

I will make another test later with a tuner to see how many channels it can capture during a scan that day.


----------



## tylerSC

Was in a Lowes store this morning and apparently they no longer carry outdoor antennas. They used to carry Channel Master, and more recently Philips and RCA. Now just a few poor performing indoor options. And I don't think Home Depot has them anymore either. Just an observation.


----------



## tshaff09

I wish we had more options to buy local, but must be not enough demand. Seems like Radio Shack is about it.


----------



## Neil L

^ Does Radio Shack still carry outdoor antenna? I was under the impression that RS was a cell phone store nowadays, as I haven't been inside one is years, I don't really know what they have.


----------



## rabbit73

*retiredengineer*:

*Finding channels missed by tuner scan, Part 3 of 4*

I set up my SONY KDL22L5000 TV indoors to see what I would get from a scan:

CM4221 > 6 ft RG6 > CM7777 > 50 ft RG6 > CM4707 Power Supply > 3 ft RG6 to TV or SLM

The gain of the preamp and the loss of the coax gives a signal 21 dB stronger at the output of the CM4707 than at the antenna; I measured it so that I can calculate the signal strength at the output terminals of the antenna from measurements indoors.

I didn't use a splitter to feed the TV and signal level meter because I wanted max signal strength; I just substituted one for the other. When I am comparing the sensitivity of two tuners, then I use a 4-way splitter to feed the two tuners and my SLM to bring them to the cliff with an attenuator.

I first measured the strength of some signals with my 719E SLM to check the system. The 4221 was used for UHF and a folded dipole cut for CH13 for VHF:

Real CH

7 +1.5 dBmV
9 -5.0
11 -10
13 +4
16 +21.5
29 +11.5
31 +11.5
33 +12.1
40 +14.2
42 -25 very unstable
46 +2.3
50 +3.5
The noise floor measured about -10 dBmV on VHF-lo and about -20 to -25 dBmV on VHF-hi, which doesn't leave quite enough margin for reliable reception of CH11. I need to improve my VHF-hi antenna.

The tuner scan gives the channels in virtual number order:










My tvfool reports give the following information. The CM4221 antenna is at 5 ft for the 3rd report. They are in real channel number order because that's what is needed for the SLM:










Before the transition to digital, I was able to use my B&W portable TV on battery power to receive the news during a power failure (attachment 1). With digital signals I can't receive anything with an indoor antenna because the insulation in the outer walls has an aluminum foil vapor barrier (which forms a shielded enclosure) and we don't have any windows that face the transmitters.

I asked the landlord if I could put up an antenna and he said "only if it looks nice and can't be seen from the street." The enclosure for my antenna with a CM4221 is shown in attachments 2 & 3. Later I added a folded dipole for CH13. Yes, the signals have to come through the holes in the decorator blocks. There is only a slight attenuation for UHF signals, but a little more for VHF-hi. The holes seem to act like a highpass filter! The enclosure is located in a common area and not for my exclusive use, so he didn't have to say yes.

My present TV for digital reception during a power failure is shown in attachment 4. It is powered by an inverter and a 12v battery pack. The post about it is here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post18514215 #354 

The next part will show some tests using the Sadelco DisplayMax 800; it is easier to find used than the older Field Strength SLMs.


----------



## tylerSC

Yes, Radioshack still carries outdoor antennas made by Antennacraft. However, the selection may vary from store to store.


----------



## Neil L

Hmm, well so they do! There is quite the selection on-line too. Four or five years ago, when I was last looking for an antenna, I don't remember them having much of anything.


----------



## arxaw

You can also choose ship to store from the RS web site.


----------



## rabbit73

*retiredengineer:*

*Finding channels missed by tuner scan, Part 4 of 4*

The Sadelco 719E signal level meter has an elegant simplicity for channel hunting: turn it on, tune for channels, listen for an increase in noise as you tune through a digital channel (the digital signal sounds like white noise), and watch the needle of the panel meter for signal strength.

That type of meter is now hard to find, so I tried some channel hunting with my Sadelco DisplayMax 800 meter. This is what CH42, that was missed during my tuner scan, looks like:










As you can see, the top of the signal is not very flat, which probably indicates a multipath reflection problem. That's not surprising, because the antenna is aimed in the opposite direction and only reflections off the objects in front of the antenna are picked up; there is no direct signal from the transmitter.

When the 800 meter is in the single channel mode it scans across the channel making 43 readings in about 10 seconds, which is a lot like what a spectrum analyzer does. Those readings are averaged and a correction factor of 6.8 dB (according to the Sadelco tech) is added to give the final signal power in dBmV. In this scanning mode, the lower limit is -20 dBmV. If any of the 43 readings is below -20 dBmV, then the meter reads *Ur* for under range.

Although this single channel mode allows you to see the signal shape, it is not useful for signals that are below the limit of -20 dBmV. For the above scan I used my CM7777 preamp to make the signal just strong enough for a scan. You can use a preamp before the 800 if you don't have any strong signals that would cause preamp overload. If you do have signals that strong, then you wouldn't be able to use a preamp anyway for reception, because the IM products produced in the preamp would mask your weak signals. See the charts by holl_ands that deal with preamp overload and SFDR (Spurious Free Dynamic Range).

When aiming an antenna you can switch from the single channel scan to the frequency mode by pressing the F1 key just below CHN/FREQ of the display. You then will have immediate feedback readings of signal strength (at center channel) to help you aim the antenna. As a bonus, this mode goes down to -35 dBmV, which is -107.8 dBm at the antenna terminals with a 24 dB preamp. The reading doesn't include the correction factor, so you must switch back to the single channel mode for that. The freq mode looks like this:










Just for fun, I added a second preamp of 15 dB in series to give a higher reading. It worked, but the tuner was no longer able to lock on to 2.1 on CH20, because the SNR was reduced by the noise that was added by the second preamp.

The day after I made the above measurements, I went across the street and setup a 2-bay UHF antenna, my meter, and a preamp. I was able to get a nice scan and a stronger signal with the antenna aimed at the transmitter for CH42.










Interestingly, when I moved the antenna a few feet left or right, without changing the height or azimuth, there was a big difference in the signal strength and scan quality. This is most likely because of the tree line in front of the antenna about 200 ft away. 

Calaveras, in his post further down, mentions that he has seen the same problem with trees when using his spectrum analyzer.



Calaveras said:


> I can't emphasize enough how your antenna needs to be above those trees. I've had my spectrum analyzer over to several locations where the antenna was looking through trees and the signals can be pretty ugly and vary dynamically with tree movement. Some signals make it through while others are destroyed. UHF is much more affected than VHF in most cases.


*Using the pilot:*

You previously asked about measuring the pilot signal. The 800 tunes in 125 KHz steps. You can go from the center freq to the low end by pushing the left arrow key many times, but it is easier to enter the freq of the low end and then push the right arrow key a few times to go by the pilot, which is 310 KHz above the low end.

In the case of CH42, you would step from 638.000 MHz to 638.125, 638.250, 638.375 to take readings. The pilot is at 638.310, which is between 638.250 and 638.375. The measurement bandwidth is 280 KHz at the 3 dB down points, so the last two frequencies in the series should show a higher reading.

In the single channel mode, the scan starts at 638.375 MHz, which is the first measurement of 43 across the 5.3 MHz center part of the 6 MHz channel.










The pilot at the left end of the scan, Figure 5, looks good.










Even though the scan in Figure 5 looks good, you must be careful not to conclude that the signal quality is also good based only on the scan. It is possible to have a good-looking scan, but not be able to receive the signal as Trip in VA found out. It is the tuner that determines if the signal quality is good enough to decode.

My 8-inch Audiovox TV in the car was able to pick up CH42 WCVE; the 22-inch Sony was too big to bring along.










If you want to look at the manual for the DisplayMax 800, you can download it from the Sadelco website. They also have refurbished meters.

*retiredengineer*:

The measurement method that I have described will do what you want with the 800 meter. Please let me know how it works out for you.

Best regards,
rabbit

Other related posts and links:

retiredengineer asks about pilot:
Part A
Part B
Part C
my answer
Finding Channels Part 1
Finding Channels Part 2
Finding Channels Part 3
3 types of overload
dBmV vs dBm
Old TV Field Strength Meter
Trees and UHF Reception in UK

The rabbit will be QRT for now.








(That's a ham Q signal)


----------



## Smoke_signal

*Update on the Audiovox DT60CFTR "RCA in-line F-connector for RG6 coax" splice kit*


Since my previous posts:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/14760#post_21974161 
http://www.avsforum.com/t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/14790#post_21982470 


I sent my broken and defective DT60CFTR splice kit to Audiovox, and a month later I received a new replacement DT60CFTR. Unfortunately, it is from the same bad lot with a Date Code of "3107SE". The DT60CFTR was sent back to Audiovox because the center connector diameter was too loose for reliable and tight contact with a standard RG6, .040" diameter center conductor. Testing with a bare Channel Master RG6 coax .039" dia. center conductor sample, I found the replacement DT60CFTR center contact is also too loose, at least on one side. The other side is sufficiently tight.


However, using a pair of mini needle nose pliers, I could squeeze the tiny DT60CFTR split-tube gold-plated center contact so that it does fit tight and reliably onto a .039" RG6 center conductor.


Hopefully, Audiovox engineers have heeded my complaint letter, sent with RG6 coax conductor samples and the defective DT60CFTR, so that DT60CFTRs sold in the future will not have this defect. In the meantime, you can still use this product only if you first test a bare sample of your RG6 coax center conductor for fit and adjust the DT60CFTR center contact with mini needle nose pliers for a tight fit before installing it.


----------



## OTAhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Smoke_signal*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/14970#post_22106439
> 
> *Update on the Audiovox DT60CFTR "RCA in-line F-connector for RG6 coax" splice kit*
> 
> Since my previous posts:
> http://www.avsforum.com/t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/14760#post_21974161
> http://www.avsforum.com/t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/14790#post_21982470
> 
> I sent my broken and defective DT60CFTR splice kit to Audiovox, and a month later I received a new replacement DT60CFTR. Unfortunately, it is from the same bad lot with a Date Code of "3107SE". The DT60CFTR was sent back to Audiovox because the center connector diameter was too loose for reliable and tight contact with a standard RG6, .040" diameter center conductor. Testing with a bare Channel Master RG6 coax .039" dia. center conductor sample, I found the replacement DT60CFTR center contact is also too loose, at least on one side. The other side is sufficiently tight.
> 
> However, using a pair of mini needle nose pliers, I could squeeze the tiny DT60CFTR split-tube gold-plated center contact so that it does fit tight and reliably onto a .039" RG6 center conductor.
> 
> Hopefully, Audiovox engineers have heeded my complaint letter, sent with RG6 coax conductor samples and the defective DT60CFTR, so that DT60CFTRs sold in the future will not have this defect. In the meantime, you can still use this product only if you first test a bare sample of your RG6 coax center conductor for fit and adjust the DT60CFTR center contact with mini needle nose pliers for a tight fit before installing it.



That seems like an awful lot of,trouble to go through... I think I'll stick with the old barrel connector, some di-electric grease, and wrap the heck out of it with electrical tape...


----------



## stevesr0

After posting in May about a store bought antenna, I decided to try a DIY coat hanger antenna. (Posts 14770, 14774 and 14778)


To my surprise, this is bringing in five channels just sitting in the room near the outside wall.


My question is, for green and yellow strength signals, how do I decide if adding a preamp or amplifier will bring in more channels? Also, which ones would fit a simple four bay coat hanger UHF design?


A reference that I could read and learn from is what I am primarily seeking, but if someone has a summary for dummies to post, I would appreciate it.


Steve


----------



## geddy76

Antennae suggestions:


We just moved to a new house and are looking to put up an antennae. Here is the result from TVFool:

 


I'm not in an ideal location as the house is surrounded by trees and is down a slight hill. Here is a shot of my location; I'm more or less dead center, at the end of the cul de sac:
 



Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Dave Loudin

@stevesr0 you were told in no uncertain terms that you should not use an amplifier of any sort. Your strongest signals are too strong - even if you ran 60 feet of coax first.


Second, I hope you used a design from this site for your antenna. Typical "coat hangar" antenna designs on YouTube and other web sites are too small for today's UHF band.


Third, read the Signal Analysis FAQ at TVFool to see how to relate predictions to required antenna gain. In summary, the equation you would use is: Noise Margin - environment losses + Antenna Gain - Cable Loss > or = 0.


Noise Margin: predicted by TVFool in dB over the minimum required for reception

Antenna Gain: greater or lesser sensitivity in dB compared to a dipole antenna. 0 dBd is equivalent to 2.2 dBi (sensitivity compared to an isotropic antenna)

Cable Loss: using RG-6 coax, that's 2.5 to 3 dB per 100 feet VHF and 5 or so dB per 100 feet UHF

Environment losses: the hard-to-predict losses encountered when an antenna is indoors. could easily be 20 dB or more


When a preamp is used, the equation becomes: Noise Margin - environmental losses + antenna gain - amplifier noise figure > or = 0. The preamp zeros out cable losses at the expense of adding noise. High quality preamps have noise figures of 3 dB or less. Cheap preamps have NFs of 8 or more dB.


----------



## Dave Loudin

@geddy76,


Your TVFool report is at the zip code level - not accurate enough for our use. Try the "Start Maps" option to place the receive location icon right over your house, then create the radar plot. Do not post the graphics from the report - post the URL.


----------



## geddy76

Here you go:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d13493da9c66c0d


----------



## arxaw

geddy76,

Are you mainly just interested in the major networks that are closest to you?


----------



## geddy76

Correct. The big 4 and PBS are all we really care about. CW and ION would make my wife and son happy, but aren't mandatory.


----------



## geddy76

And I'm planning on mounting this on the roof, despite the chart showing that alot of my channels would be okay with an attic antennae. I'm thinking that with the trees and elevation (or lack thereof) that I'll need every inch I can get.


----------



## Dave Loudin

The pretty standard recommendation is a model from the Winegard HD769xP series. Without the trees, I would have suggested either the 7694 or 7696. Considering your surroundings, the 7696 is the smallest antenna I'd consider. The 7698 may be a better bet.


As far as the trees go, you may have better luck trying to look _under_ the leaves. Your report at 10 feet suggests that there would be enough signal to work with.


You must be up in Charles Co., MD. I'm to your southwest with 2-edge paths to DC, but no trees. I get the entire market with an attic installation.


----------



## geddy76

Close. I'm in Calvert County. When you say going under the trees, are you implying this shouldn't go on the roof?

Also, i couldn't tell from Winegard's site, but is this amplified? I'm hoping to split the signal at least once to feed two EyeTVs.


Thanks!


----------



## arxaw

+1 on the suggested "under the trees" (as in nearer the ground), instead of the roof. You can easily try this with a temporary setup in the yard, before doing anything permanent. Placing the antenna on top of two wooden or fiberglass step ladders would make it possible for you to test the lower setup.


For your channels of interest, you should have enough signal to split to two TVs without adding any sort of amp, if using one of the antennas Dave Loudin suggested. You want to avoid amps if at all possible.


----------



## geddy76

Awesome. Thanks to you both. So it looks like I have an initial plan.


----------



## stevesr0

Reply to Dave Loudin:


Thanks for comments.


Reassuring to know all I need worry about is antenna itself.


The DIY site you mentioned looks quite interesting.


I guess the message is if I want more channels than I can receive with this first DIY, to build a better one after scrutinizing the material from that site and elsewhere on this one.


Great forum.


Steve


----------



## Dave Loudin

@stevesr0, http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3D7fcf99c735cd96 is the TVFool report you posted earlier. For best results, you will need to use the 4-bay antenna design that favors channels 7, 8, and 9. A bit of history: that DIY site evolved from the "how to build a UHF antenna" thread at this site. If you want to try another bowtie project, there really is no reason to look anyplace else for ideas.


If you want to try another commercial antenna, an RCA ANT-751 would be a good choice.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geddy76*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/14970#post_22107840
> 
> 
> Correct. The big 4 and PBS are all we really care about. CW and ION would make my wife and son happy, but aren't mandatory.


The CW is usually hardest to receive full power DC station. ION should be a piece of cake. I suggest the Winegard 7698 at a minimum for reliable reception of the CW.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geddy76*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/14970#post_22107875
> 
> 
> And I'm planning on mounting this on the roof, despite the chart showing that alot of my channels would be okay with an attic antennae. *I'm thinking that with the trees and elevation (or lack thereof)that I'll need every inch I can get*


I agree. Attic installations are very unpredictable. I strongly suggest roof mounting to avoid frustration when conditions deteriorate due to weather & other factors.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geddy76*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/14970#post_22107875
> 
> 
> And I'm planning on mounting this on the roof, despite the chart showing that alot of my channels would be okay with an attic antennae. I'm thinking that with the trees and elevation (or lack thereof) that I'll need every inch I can get.



I can't emphasize enough how your antenna needs to be above those trees. I've had my spectrum analyzer over to several locations where the antenna was looking through trees and the signals can be pretty ugly and vary dynamically with tree movement. Some signals make it through while others are destroyed. UHF is much more affected than VHF in most cases. With that many trees I'll be surprised if you get much trying to look under the trees. It should be a piece of cake with an antenna above the trees.


Chuck


----------



## Humey

I installed the antenna this weekend. Got to say that it works 100%. I am not looking for long range stations but just my local and network channels. Got them all and they are all coming in strong. The antenna is even pointing through some trees and doesnt seem to be affected.. Thanks for the advice





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/14610#post_21808775
> 
> 
> 
> Outdoor: RCA ANT-751 Medium Gain Hi-VHF/UHF Antenna...about 36"x36",
> 
> 
> on sale at Walmart, check their website for store availability, can also
> 
> 
> order for store pickup (and free return). Do NOT use a Preamp.
> 
> 
> 
> Indoor--likely but no guarantees are EVER possible given the variety of Unknownzzzzz:
> 
> 
> Rabbit Ear/Loop types, see EV's Indoor Antenna Thread:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779


----------



## RayGuy

Has anyone ever used PVC pipe as an antenna mast? Are there any reasons not to do this? Just trying to save a couple of bucks.


Also, would someone recommend a static discharge unit that won't rob too much signal and is inexpensive?


----------



## Calaveras

PVC is very flexible in the small diameter you'd need for a mast unless you only need a foot or two and are installing a small TV antenna. I wouldn't try 5' of it with a a moderate to large antenna. I've used fiberglass as a non-conducting cross mast when I needed that but I think it's more expensive than a metal mast.


Chuck


----------



## stevesr0

Dave,


Thanks for your comments.


I will review that thread and the RCA antenna you named.


Steve


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Has anyone ever used PVC pipe as an antenna mast? Are there any reasons not to do this? Just trying to save a couple of bucks.


I have, but I sealed in an old broom stick handle in it with polyurethane glue. Unless you already have the broom stick and polyurethane glue (which goes bad fairly quickly if not used) on hand, its cheaper to buy galvanized EMT pipe for a mast.


----------



## OTAhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/14790#post_22000757
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ever try FM with no amplifier? Line loss shouldn't be an issue if running less than 100 feet of coax.
> 
> 
> 
> To keep noise levels down when listening to fringe analog FM stereo it is best to avoid amplification if possible. The FM 6 worked very well for me as well at those distances with no help at all.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *OTAhead*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/14790#post_22001600
> 
> 
> 
> I have to admit that I have not tried the FM6 without the 7777. Having said that, I find it hard to believe that quality reception of the Houston locals would be possible without it at the distance I am from the transmitters. But, having not tried it, I certainly don't know for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> I will post an example (specifically for KTBZ) of the signal strength from my FM FOOL report in my next post...



Well, I will get a chance to try the FM6 without the 7777 way sooner than I ever thought I would... Weekend before last I was listening to the HD receiver when a friend of mine knocked on the door. He came in and I turned the volume down while he was there. When he left, I increased the volume and heard only static noise. I tried stations all across the dial with the same result. Hhhhmmm. I hooked the TVs 7777 power supply up to the FM6 for a minute and I was back in business. I unhooked the TV PS and connected it back up to the TV antennas. I then went online to find a replacement PS and found one, an open box item, at the Channel Master web site for around $30 or so. I got it last Thursday and installed it on Saturday. It lasted about 3 minutes before it went kaput also... (Glad I disconnected the TV PS when I did!). So, apparently I've got a problem up top, so I am just going to hook the FM6 directly up to the receiver. I guess I will see how that does...


----------



## tylerSC

I have found that HD Radio reception locks in better without an amp, and that FM6 is a good FM antenna. But if you do use the amp, hopefully it is the older style CM7777, as the new version has a higher noise figure and reportably does not work as well.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/14970#post_22139722
> 
> 
> I have found that HD Radio reception locks in better without an amp, and that FM6 is a good FM antenna. But if you do use the amp, hopefully it is the older style CM7777, as the new version has a higher noise figure and reportably does not work as well.



The old 7777 wasn't all that quiet and I've yet to see independent technical measurements of the new one.


HD radio signals are much weaker than the main analog signal (-12 or -20 dB), so any amp that adds IMD would be particularly detrimental to the HD signal.


The FM6 is, indeed, a pretty good FM antenna.


----------



## geddy76

Follow up. I put the antenna together yesterday (Winegard 7698). I tested it by setting it on my deck railing and bringing the laptop with EyeTV out to it. It received all the major channels us I few I wasnt expecting to receive. I then mounted it on the roof and tapped into the old DirectTV cable that was up there. Plugging the laptop into the other end of that cable in the basement I was still receiving the same channels. However, when I connected it to the end of the run the previous owner had laced out to the other end of the house ( where the living room is) all but 2 stations are gone.


Is this a cable-run issue? An amplifier issue? Any suggestions?


----------



## geddy76

Also, the signal strength meter in EyeTV reflects a significant drop-off when plugged into the final destination.


----------



## mikepier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geddy76*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/14970#post_22143753
> 
> 
> Follow up. I put the antenna together yesterday (Winegard 7698). I tested it by setting it on my deck railing and bringing the laptop with EyeTV out to it. It received all the major channels us I few I wasnt expecting to receive. I then mounted it on the roof and tapped into the old DirectTV cable that was up there. Plugging the laptop into the other end of that cable in the basement I was still receiving the same channels. However, when I connected it to the end of the run the previous owner had laced out to the other end of the house ( where the living room is) all but 2 stations are gone.
> 
> Is this a cable-run issue? An amplifier issue? Any suggestions?



Is there a splitter of some sort between the basement and living room? And if there is, is it a conventional 2 or 3 way splitter, or is it a splitter from the original DirectTV system?


----------



## geddy76

There is no splitter. Only a few barrels.


----------



## mikepier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *geddy76*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15000#post_22145708
> 
> 
> There is no splitter. Only a few barrels.



How long of a cable run is it from basement to the living room?


Either the extra length of cable to the living room is enough to lose the channels, or there is a problem in one of your barrel splices somewhere down the line.


Is there any way you can test at the next barrel splice?


----------



## L David Matheny




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mikepier*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15000#post_22146388
> 
> 
> How long of a cable run is it from basement to the living room?
> 
> Either the extra length of cable to the living room is enough to lose the channels, or there is a problem in one of your barrel splices somewhere down the line.
> 
> Is there any way you can test at the next barrel splice?



Also check the cable type. It should be RG6, since older RG59 is lossier.


----------



## OTAhead

There would have to be a splitter somewhere wouldn't there??? If not, might the two channels signals being received merely be induced in the cable itself???


----------



## geddy76

Ah. I believe it is RG59 that is the final run. So I should replace this with RG6?


There are at least two barrels in the run, so I'll test it at all barrels to see where it drops. FWIW, this is not my cabling; we just moved in to the house and I am using the existing wiring.


Thanks.


----------



## Calaveras

High quality foil shielded RG-59 has about 7.3 dB/100' of loss at channel 51 compared to 5 dB/100' of RG-6. That's less than adding a splitter. If you had solid reception without this extra run of cable then there's probably something else going on with it. If you only had a few dB of noise margin on your stations, then that wouldn't be enough to provide stable reception in the long run. I'm assuming this extra run of RG-59 cable to the basement is not hundreds of feet long.










Chuck


----------



## geddy76

Correct. Being new to the house I'm not overly familiar with the dimensions. However, I'd guess that from the basement to the living room is an additional 50 feet. Tomorrow I'm hoping to check the signal at the last barrel before it comes back upstairs. Maybe there is something wrong with that last run.


----------



## tylerSC

Is there a U.S. distributor for a Research Communications preamp? I am looking for the UHF version, and its low noise specs and phemt design circuitry is what I am looking for.


----------



## Calaveras

I don't think there is a US distributor. How about this?

http://www.kitztech.com/ 


The KT-200 is practically the same thing and much cheaper.


I've had one of these on VHF for some months now and I have to say that it's really hard to notice the difference between this and a standard 2-3 dB NF preamp. Only by careful observation over a long time on my most marginal station can I see an improvement. If you're expecting a dramatic improvement over a CM or Winegard preamp, you'll be disappointed.


Chuck


----------



## tylerSC

The noise figure on the Kitztech amps is very good, but I'm not sure if it utilizes phemt design circuitry, and if that makes a difference on marginal or weak signals. I am not a tech expert, and do not really know exactly what phemt design means, except for the fact that the AbilityHDTV amp that I previously used had this design and it worked very well for my problem channel. But unfortunately, it shorted out due to a power surge and stopped working. The Research Comm version supposedly now utilizes better built in surge protection, and has gotten good reviews for receiving channels the CM7777 would not. I tried the Winegard 4800, but got pixelation and dropouts. Perhaps partially because it is allowing 100% signal strength on real local VHF channels RF7 and RF9, with a UHF antenna - this could be overloading the amp or the TV tuner. Didn't have this problem with the Ability amp. But perhaps a HiVHF filter would help with the Winegard, if somebody makes such a thing. Although I mistakenly thought the 4800 would only pass UHF signals. Meanwhile, I am looking into the Research Comm 9261, a UHF only preamp for channels 14 - 51.


----------



## Konrad2

> But unfortunately, it shorted out due to a power surge and stopped working.


They sell surge protectors in a variety of quality/performance levels.


> Perhaps partially because it is allowing 100% signal strength on

> real local VHF channels RF7 and RF9, with a UHF antenna - this could

> be overloading the amp or the TV tuner.


> But perhaps a HiVHF filter would help with the Winegard, if somebody

> makes such a thing.


Get a UVSJ and a terminator. Terminate the VHF port. You now have

a high pass filter for US$2-5 + shipping. It will knock down VHF and

FM radio by roughly 20 dB. If you want more attenuation (especially if

you want more attenuation just below UHF) you can use more than one in

series.


tinlee.com sells higher performance custom filters at higher prices.


They make higher performance off the shelf units, but I haven't

been able to find anyone that sells them in the US.


Any filter will have a small amount of attenuation in the pass band.

If it is your tuner that is overloading and not the amp, you could be

better off inserting the filter after the amp and before the tuner.

That way the weak signal gets amplified before being attenuated.

If the amp is being overloaded you'll need to insert the filter before

the amp.


----------



## Calaveras

The best I can tell the pHEMT is preferred for low noise figure. I haven't read of any other particular advantage. Just in terms of noise figure, a 2 dB or so improvement for DTV over other preamps is very small. If your signal is so marginal with a 3 dB NF preamp that it's unwatchable most of the time, then a 0.4 dB NF preamp is not going to fix the problem. Weak signals are too unstable over time for a couple of dB improvement to overcome that.


I'm skeptical of anecdotal reports because there are so many variables involved and almost no one can measure their signals to understand exactly what their situation is.


I have a spectrum analyzer and have spent a lot of time measuring signals to determine exactly what I'm dealing with here. My biggest issue is one local strong UHF station and I had to take steps to deal with it; i.e. a preamp that wouldn't be overloaded by it and a notch filter after the preamp to prevent the TV from being overloaded.


Another important step is to calculate System Noise Figure to determine optimum preamp gain. Too much gain is inviting overload and too little gain ruins the System Noise Figure. Once you know this and the signal levels you have to deal with, then you can engineer a system that will work. Few people are going to be able to do this. Almost everyone is just playing guessing games which is why the reports are so inconsistent.


In my case I know every variable, including the fact I have no strong FM stations, cell transmitters, VHF DTV, or any other transmitters close to the TV bands. Based on this I felt I could get away with the unfiltered Kitztech on VHF and pick up about 3 dB in system noise figure. The result is that my weakest VHF station of interest has gone from about 75% receivable to about 90% receivable. There's nothing I can do to make it 100%.


The Research Comm 9261 might be what you need or not. There's no way I or anyone else can possibly know without having every detail of your reception situation.


Chuck


----------



## Vidop

Powered RF splitter/amplifier-I've searched this thread and haven't exactly found what I'm looking for. Here's my quest--I would like to find a powered rf amplifier/splitter (indoor installation for OTA antenna) that is 1x6 (or larger) with at least a 3 db (preferably 4 or 5 db) gain. I've come across a good candidate from Siemens (model VM3X8AB). But, it is rather expensive--I've seen quotes of ~$200/each. Would any of you have suggestions of an amp/splitter like this that is less expensive? Thanks.


----------



## Calaveras

CM 8-way splitter 4 dB gain

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=CM3418&d=Channel-Master-CM3418-Distribution-Amplifier-(CM3418)&c=Amplifiers&sku=


----------



## geddy76

I'm still having difficulties getting this antenna set up properly. Can anyone recommend an installer/technician in the DC or Southern Maryland region?


Or anyone on the forum that is in the area that wants to do it for beer...?


----------



## Vidop




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15000#post_22182931
> 
> 
> CM 8-way splitter 4 dB gain
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=CM3418&d=Channel-Master-CM3418-Distribution-Amplifier-(CM3418)&c=Amplifiers&sku=



Thanks-That is exactly what I had in mind!


----------



## Skylinestar

Will a cheap rotatable-mast antenna like this work just as good as the expensive Wineguard 7698P?


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Skylinestar*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15000#post_22199531
> 
> 
> Will a cheap rotatable-mast antenna like this work just as good as the expensive Wineguard 7698P?



Hi,


Too little information, where is your TVFool or location and the stations you wish to receive.


The Wineguard 7698P does not have a rotor, are your stations all in the same direction and very far away or close and in different directions?


Please provide a link to to your proposed antenna.


(Note, get ready for the blowtorch and other flames.)


SHF


----------



## MejustMe

Although I am not "up to date" with today's digital OTA technology I did learn a lot from my engineer father as a teen and in my 20's about "tubes, resistors, amplifiers, preamps, UHF & VHF etc" having to do with TV's. I went into the computer areas of the technology world on the business systems software side in my 30's. Now I am "retired" and find myself in the mode of trying to minimize my monthly bills to keep my living expenses as low as possible. Social Security doesn't go far and in the near future will not go as far as it is now so going to OTA TV is now a must - not just the desire to do it as it was in 2005 when I couldn't find anyone to install an OTA antenna on the top of our 3 story house only to be told by everyone I called "get cable".


So I'm new to this group just because I need to catch up and tried to do so by sorting for antennas 100 to 150 miles in this group only to get answers that span a 12 year time frame that were overwhelming to try to read, put into date sequence and make sense of. Now I need to solve the problem hopefully with help from anyone that can point me in the right direction.


When we moved here in the Northern Indiana area from the Chicago Area a few years ago we couldn't find anyone to put up an antenna for us so we went to Comcast as the last resort. My 70 year old husband lost his job in Chicago a few months ago and Illinois subtracts what ever you get in Social Security from your Unemployment check so we do not have a lot to work with so we decided to go back to Over The Air (OTV) for TV and dropped Comcast TV but kept the Internet. Oddly enough when they "turned off" the TV there was still a signal coming through the cable of the OTV stations so we feverishly have been working to get the OTV system up and running before that was shut off. Well I guess the change over to HD did it and we now do not receive anything as of the morning of 6/19. I finally hooked up the equipment below with limited success

:

*all analog TV's


*RCA Amplified Indoor * Outdoor Antennae UHF - VHF Terrestrial HDTV Broadcast Compatible Model ANT706

(*It does pick up 11 digital stations in the Elkhart (60 miles) - South Bend (15 to 20 miles) Area mounted on the wall above the main TV on the 2nd floor)

and uses the* *Magnavox TB100MW9 DTV Digital to Analog Converter.


Also have an: APEX Digital DT250A Digital TV Converter (DTV Tuner)



We are willing to start over again if necessary. I went to Radio Shack to see if they had any better outdoor antennas that would get in up to 100+ miles and a tower to put it on plus an installer if needed but nobody knows nothing here in La Porte County just like the people in South Bend were when I tried this the last time in 2007. I was told again to go get cable TV. Unfortunately there are those of us that are on fixed incomes that cannot afford that kind of ongoing expense just to watch the weather and news.


As it is we can't afford the Comcast Internet now that there is no TV at all as the Internet is suppose to be 1.5 down and 3++ up and we are getting .7 down and 295 up for the great price of 60.00 a month. Since the kids got out of school the Comcast internet is down from around 9:00 am every morning until 8:00 to 9:00 PM every night so I have found another local service that is putting up a 50' tower for me and our service will be from 6.0 up to 10 down for 40.00/mo. They are willing to install the OTA antenna, rotor and preamp if needed on the tower with their equipment. Now I just need to find the right equipment as once I buy this it needs to work right as getting them to come out and change it will probably be an expensive proposition.


We here in La Porte County (IN) and West are the Step Children as far as news and weather go on local channels out of South Bend unlike the Chicago Stations let alone the area north of Chicago is really home so that is why we needed an antennae to pick up stations from as far away as possible. Otherwise we have to listen to those ingrates in the South Bend Area that think they are the only people in this area. SO...... PLEASE HELP.


----------



## Calaveras

The first thing you need to do is to go here:

http://www.tvfool.com 


and enter your address to get a list of TV stations you might be able to receive. Post the link here for us to look at so we can help you.


It's not realistic to expect to receive stations 100-150 miles away. About 60 miles is usually the maximum. Beyond that you need some serious elevation at both ends.


Chuck


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Will a cheap rotatable-mast antenna like this work just as good as the expensive Wineguard 7698P?



Nope, not really. That antenna has roughly about 6 dbd uhf and 2 dbd vhf-hi in gain. It does have a built in rotor and preamp, but of questionable build quality/noise which probably wont last long after the minimal warranty.


The Winegard 7698P specs are here: http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewitem.asp?d=winegard-hd-7698p-high-definition-vhfuhf-hd769-series-tv-antenna-(hd7698p)&p=hd7698p 

Its very good build quality but does not come with a rotor or preamp. A quality preamp will run about $35 - $60 and a quality rotor about $65 - $90.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> It's not realistic to expect to receive stations 100-150 miles away. About 60 miles is usually the maximum. Beyond that you need some serious elevation at both ends.


Yep, although Vhf-low channels (if you have any) will bend around the curve of the earth a bit for a few more miles. Ads that claim more mileage are either outright lying or were tested on mountain tops, heh.


> Quote:
> and uses the *Magnavox TB100MW9 DTV Digital to Analog Converter.
> 
> 
> Also have an: APEX Digital DT250A Digital TV Converter (DTV Tuner)



Also, not the most sensitive of the converter box tuners. The Zenith/Insignia and the Apex DT501/502 are better.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Skylinestar*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15000#post_22199531
> 
> 
> Will a cheap rotatable-mast antenna like this work just as good as the expensive Wineguard 7698P?



I'm not going to flame you but SHF is right. You need to provide us with your TVFool results. The answer to your question is that the antenna you linked to does not have the performance specs of the 7698P but you may not need a big antenna if you're close to your transmitters. If you're looking for a small antenna with equal performance to a large antenna then you're on a quest for the "magic antenna" which doesn't exist.










Chuck


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> A quality preamp will run about $35 - $60 and a quality rotor about $65 - $90.



I haven't seen a lot of discussion on rotors here. Maybe I haven't looked hard enough. I've used all sorts of rotors since 1968 so I have some strong opinions on them. I'm not a fan of these inexpensive (


----------



## Larry Kenney

To back up Chuck's comments above, here are my experiences with the cheaper rotors.


I first put up a Channel Master CM9521A that cost $110. I have a CM4228 and an Antennacraft Y-10-7-13 yagi for antennas. ( See http://www.larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html ) After two years of use the Channel Master rotor locked up and had to be replaced. Solid Signal recommended the Philips SDW1850/17 that cost me $189. It was installed last December. A couple of weeks ago we had some strong gusty winds and the Philips rotor stopped working. Upon checking things out it was found that the lower bearing in the rotor has snapped, so I need to replace it. The rotor has a one year warranty, but replacing it with one like it, I'm just going to have problems again later on.


I thought that a rotor costing $189 would be good enough, but the weight of the CM4228 and Y-10-7-13 are too much of a load for the rotor to handle in gusty winds. Right now, the wind has rocked the antennas back and forth enough so that they're turning again on the broken bearing, but that's not going to last for long.


I'm going to either do away with the rotor altogether and lock the antennas in the position where I get the most stations, or spend the money to get one of the Yaesu rotors. The installer recommends the more expensive one... "just to be safe".


Larry

SF


----------



## Ennui

I have been using the Yaesu G-450XL on big ham antennas and now two TV antennas. No problems after 15 years.


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> I'm not a fan of these inexpensive (


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15000#post_22200881
> 
> 
> Right now, the wind has rocked the antennas back and forth enough so that they're turning again on the broken bearing, but that's not going to last for long.
> 
> SF



Sorry to hear about that. I know it wasn't long ago that you paid to have it installed. With the winds you have in some parts of the city you need something stronger. I have a friend up here who put his TV antennas on a G-450 and it has beed working fine.


On the HD73..... Another friend up here in Arnold had an HD73 up that had quit rotating and I told him it was likely the cork brake. We took down the rotor, opened it up, and sure enough it was stuck. We broke it free and now it runs like new. The bearings were dry but it had been up for 20 years. I just looked at Ebay and someone is asking a ridiculous price for one. I wouldn't pay that. I checked the Completed Listings and saw a non-functional rotor only sold for $46. I'll bet it's the brake. I had one in Fremont turning a VHF array and if the wind blew hard enough it would back drive the rotor but never broke any gears. I'd rather have the antennas turn than break the gears.


Chuck


----------



## MejustMe

Here is the link to TV Fool with the info you requested: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d990051c6341120 . Just so you know we are on the north side of a very large lake that is elevated at least 25' above the majority of the lake, houses and trees around the lake and then the 50' tower is going to be put up in a clearing at the top of the 25' hill. I didn't know if TV Fool allowed for the 25' land rise in their calculations. I only included the height of the tower. I'm not sure just how to read the chart they give but it looks like there is an incredible amount of stations available for distances that seem to go as far as 91 miles.


----------



## retiredengineer

Just be aware that it will be very difficult to maintain consistent reception of the Chicago stations because the signals have to propagate over Lake Michigan to your location. Water is a very good reflector of TV signals which means multipath interference. Some days you will have good reception and some days you will have no reception.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MejustMe*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15000#post_22204029
> 
> 
> Here is the link to TV Fool with the info you requested: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d990051c6341120 . Just so you know we are on the north side of a very large lake that is elevated at least 25' above the majority of the lake, houses and trees around the lake and then the 50' tower is going to be put up in a clearing at the top of the 25' hill. I didn't know if TV Fool allowed for the 25' land rise in their calculations. I only included the height of the tower. I'm not sure just how to read the chart they give but it looks like there is an incredible amount of stations available for distances that seem to go as far as 91 miles.



You should not have any trouble with the top 10 stations in your list that are LOS (Line-of-Sight) and all in one direction. I would not use a preamp since some of those stations are very strong. A moderate sized UHF antenna should do it.


If you want to try for Chicago then you'll need a larger antenna with a rotor and since WLS is on VHF (channel 7) you'll need an antenna with high VHF, probably a Winegard 7698P. As stated before you probably cannot expect reception 100% of the time from Chicago since you're on the fringe. WGVK is on low VHF (channel 5) which will require a full sized combo antenna.


TVFool will allow you input your exact Latitude and Longitude which you can get from Google Earth and then you can use the 50' elevation if you think just your address isn't accurate enough.


Chuck


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> with a rotor


Or since there is only two directions to be concerned with, two separate coax downleads from two different antennas into an A-B switch at the TV. The 7698P for Chicago and a cheap 4 bay bowtie for LOS. Preamp the Chicago antenna, but not the LOS antenna. An A-B switch is a lot faster at changing directions 180 degrees than a rotor, heh. And cheaper (and more reliable) to.










If youre willing to build your own custom antenna, you could make do with just one. Because your LOS stations are so strong, you should be able to get them from the back of a GH10n3 aimed at Chicago.


http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/gh_n3_uV/gh10n3_9V7_15u0.html


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> since WLS is on VHF (channel 7) you'll need an antenna with high VHF,



Actually, WLS is on RF44 and on RF7 on their way to (presumably) going UHF only. It's WBBM that's currently VHF only although they appear to have a CP to build a low-power UHF translator.


WGVK is in Kalamazoo, not Chicago. As it's on RF5, it would require a deep-fringe antenna with excellent low-VHF performance to have a shot.


The OP will have to decide what he wants and how much he's willing to put into the project.


----------



## Mister B




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MejustMe*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15000#post_22199637
> 
> 
> We here in La Porte County (IN) and West are the Step Children as far as news and weather go on local channels out of South Bend unlike the Chicago Stations let alone the area north of Chicago is really home so that is why we needed an antennae to pick up stations from as far away as possible. Otherwise we have to listen to those ingrates in the South Bend Area that think they are the only people in this area. SO...... PLEASE HELP.



Here is another idea to consider. Since the Indiana stations provide all of the major networks, and it appears that the main reason for wanting Chicago stations is to view their local news the OP could aim any small UHF antenna towards South Bend and sombine that with a Winegard YA-1713 to receive the CBS affilate in Chicago on channel 12. The two antennas are combined with a UVSJ (UHF/VHF signal joiner) such as this
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=UVSJ&d=Pico-Macom-UVSJ-UHF-VHF-Band-Separator%2FCombiner-for-Antenna-(UVSJ) and no rotor or switch is needed.


----------



## Ennui

There is more info on the site explaining the terms. You will have difficulty receiving anything less than zero Noise Margin.


The two different directions indicate you either need two antennas or a rotator to get both groups of stations. It it was me, I would use a rotator.


Also, the Winegard preamp I am using includes both VHF and UHF inputs.


----------



## MejustMe

In looking up the suggested Winegard 7698 I ran across the Winegard HD8200U HDTV/UHF/VHF/Tv Antenna. The specs on it says 100+ miles range. The info I read was:
"The best of the best. The HD8200U has some of the highest gain of any consumer grade antenna. Built to last so if you just want to purchase an antenna once this is the one you want. Includes weather proof cartridge house for download module with 75 Ohm coaxial connection. Zinc plated high quality steel construction for maximum corrosion resistance and heavy duty construction. No transformer required this antenna uses a unique PC board with a direct 75 Ohm connection. Directional performance offers high gain reception while blocking out interference. Turning Radius: 101 . 69 Active Elements 34 VHF elements and 35 UHF elements. Estimated range 100+ miles VHF 60+ miles UHF. Includes hardware for mounting to a mast; antenna has a 75 ohm coax connection. Great for the those in a low signal areas trying to overcome loss from trees and terrain or those who simply want the best. High quality construction offers extra strength with double boom braces high-impact ABS girder design and supports. Platinum HD antennas deliver powerful VHF performance and offer additional 1 dB to 2 dB higher gain on VHF and UHF important for weak signal areas.. Outstanding UHF reception acheived by precise director spacing and highly efficient corner reflectors. Boom: 168.25 L x 110 W 33 H".


Anybody have any experience with this one? I'm willing to pay the money if it works. Oh I forgot to mention since we are so high up over the lake on the back side of the house there is a line of electrical transmission towers that are 100 to 150' that run across the front of the house and are like a wind tunnel when storms come through here so anything on top of the tower needs to be able to withstand some pretty good winds.and weather. If I don't need a preamp what else should be part of the configuration? Remote Rotor? Amplifier?


----------



## ProjectSHO89

The 7698 is essentially an 8200 with the 2-6 elements removed. The 8200 is one of the largest consumer antennas on the market at 10 feet wide and 14 feet long. Unless you need reception of real channels 2-6, there is no advantage in placing the extra sized elements up in the air.


----------



## dvansowhat

MjM: I have the 7698 that has been in service for 3 years and it has been through 100mph wind storm last year that brought down trees in my backyard and never fazed it. It is a very sturdy antenna as far as withstandig the weather. I previously had a similar sized 8200 antenna before digital transition and then after that put up the 7698. It was a big improvement over the 8200 type as far as reception is concerned. I think you would like the 7698 compared to the 8200 as far as performance.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MejustMe*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15030#post_22207823
> 
> 
> Estimated range 100+ miles VHF 60+ miles UHF.



100 miles on low VHF (2-6) and 60 miles on UHF and there are a lot of factors that can affect this. Antennas don't have mileage ratings. It's marketing.


> Quote:
> Oh I forgot to mention since we are so high up over the lake on the back side of the house there is a line of electrical transmission towers that are 100 to 150' that run across the front of the house and are like a wind tunnel when storms come through here so anything on top of the tower needs to be able to withstand some pretty good winds.and weather. If I don't need a preamp what else should be part of the configuration? Remote Rotor? Amplifier?



Electrical transmission towers can produce a lot of noise which is harmful to DTV and is more of a problem on low VHF (2-6). I think I'd skip the HD 8200U and just go with the 7698P. Electrical noise is less of an issue on high VHF (7-13) and basically a non-issue on UHF. It's up to you whether you want to use a rotor or have two separate antennas pointed in your two main directions and use a A/B switch. I'd be very careful about using any preamplifiers when you have 5 stations with >50 dB noise margin. Those are very strong.


Chuck


----------



## MejustMe

What do you mean when you say:


"Unless you need reception of real channels 2-6, there is no advantage in placing the extra sized elements up in the air."


Channels 2 to 6 come out of Chicago if they mean what I think they mean so I definately need to get those channels.


----------



## Pete-N2

What are the stations you need to get. Please list channel number, Call sign, and RF Channel...


----------



## retiredengineer

If you don't need the Chicago stations WOCK or WCVK which transmit on RF4 and RF5, respectively, then you don't need an antenna that can receive RF2 to RF6. You can use a smaller and cheaper antenna such as the 7698.


Channel 2, 3, and 5 are virtual channels. They actually transmit in either the Hi_VHF or the UHF band.


----------



## dattier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *retiredengineer*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15000_50#post_22209646
> 
> 
> If you don't need the Chicago stations WOCK or WCVK which transmit on RF4 and RF5, respectively ...


For WOCK on RF4, yes, but WCVK is a radio station in Bowling Green, Kentucky.  There is no ATSC or NTSC signal on RF 5 in the Chicago market.


> Quote:
> Channel 2, 3, and 5 are virtual channels. They actually transmit in either the Hi_VHF or the UHF band.


Nor is there a television station using real nor virtual channel 3 in the Chicago DMA, but there R.E. may have been referring to some other location.


----------



## MejustMe

The main ones we want to watch is:

CH 2 CBS WBBM

CH 5 NBC WMAQ

CH 7 ABC WLS-TV

CH 9 (Indep) WGN-TV

CH 11 PBS WTTW

CH 32 FOX WFLD

CH 50 FOX WPWR


Since I don't know what RF Channel means I hope I have given you what you need. There are many more Chicago stations but these are the main ones. Any thing else would be a bonus


----------



## retiredengineer

dattier, thanks for the catch. WCVK should be WGVK and yes it is not a Chicago station. My bad.


MejustMe, RF Channel means the actual frequency they are transmitting on. It may or may not match the displayed channel.


WBBM shows Channel 2 on the TV but they actual transmit on RF 12 which is Hi-VHF.

WMAQ shows Channel 5 on the TV but they actual transmit on RF 29 which is UHF.

The rest of your listed channels are all transmitted on Hi-VHF or UHF.


You do not need an antenna that claims to receive Channel 2 to Channel 6 since there are no stations from your list that actually transmit on those channels.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MejustMe*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15030#post_22210159
> 
> 
> Since I don't know what RF Channel means I hope I have given you what you need.



Welcome to the wonderful world of virtual channel numbering.







Your TV Fool list shows Channel Real and (Virt). Virtual is the channel the station used in the analog days. So that stations didn't have to change their branding, and supposedly not to confuse the public when many stations changed their channel when they switched to digital, the virtual channel numbering system was invented so you could enter the old channel number on your remote but receive the new channel. When you first connect up your antenna you perform a channel scan and the TV creates a look-up table converting virtual to real channels. The problem is that you need to know on which channels the stations actually transmit so that you buy the correct antenna.


Personally I think virtual channel numbering is a terrible idea. I have yet to run across anyone who is not confused the first time they encounter it. The TV manufacturers have many different ways of implementing the system in software which also causes confusion. I hope you have a TV that has an "Add Channel" function so that after you scan your locals you can switch to Chicago and do another scan to add those in. Some TVs can't do this so it largely precludes receiving stations from multiple directions.


Chuck


----------



## BCF68




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15030#post_22210996
> 
> 
> Personally I think virtual channel numbering is a terrible idea.



What was the alternative? To have all these stations re-brand themselves? As if that would be LESS confusing?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *BCF68*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15030#post_22214611
> 
> 
> What was the alternative? To have all these stations re-brand themselves? As if that would be LESS confusing?



Yes, that would be much less confusing. After a couple of days everyone would have it figured out. There would be no lasting confusion over which antenna you needed because the channel number would tell you. TVs would have much less complicated software because you'd only have direct channel entry like analog did. There would be no virtual channel mapping conflicts like I have here that prevent me from tuning to some out of market stations.


People with cable know what channel number the stations are on. If they can remember that they can remember the RF number. If stations didn't rebrand, then they could ID like this for example: KMAX CW 31 - Cable 12 - Over the Air 21. Seems straightforward to me.


Chuck


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15030#post_22215149
> 
> 
> Yes, that would be much less confusing. After a couple of days everyone would have it figured out. There would be no lasting confusion over which antenna you needed because the channel number would tell you. TVs would have much less complicated software because you'd only have direct channel entry like analog did. There would be no virtual channel mapping conflicts like I have here that prevent me from tuning to some out of market stations.
> 
> 
> It is a problem. But, remember, you are not supposed to be tuning in out of market stations. Having almost no way out of the box worries me, too.
> 
> I think the mess will straighten out, if broadcasting continues as a viable concern. I'm not sure that is going to happen, though.


----------



## OTAhead

I had problems tuning in IN MARKET stations! We have a station on RF 12 with a PSIP also of channel 12 (12.1/12.2). They also program two low power stations on RF 36 and RF 43. Guess what? BOTH of those ALSO carry a PSIP of 12 (12.3/12.4). So we have 12.1/12.2/12.3/12.4/12.3/12.4! I had two HDTVs that would only lock in one of the 12s. I could have ABC/NBC or MyNetwork TV/MeTV. Virtual channels su "ck IMHO.


----------



## retiredengineer

I agree virtual channels s*cks.


On my Sony TV, I can enter the real RF channel numbers and receive the virtual channels. It may work for you.


KBMT 12.3 and 12.4, oops, it appears you have to enter the virtual channels 12.1 and 12.2, respectively.

KUIL 43.5 and 43.6, real RF.

K36ID-D 36.5, 36.6, real RF.


Another PITA since you have to find out what the real RF channels are and enter the digits.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *retiredengineer*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15030#post_22216610
> 
> 
> I agree virtual channels s*cks.
> 
> On my Sony TV, I can enter the real RF channel numbers and receive the virtual channels. It may work for you.
> 
> KBMT 12.3 and 12.4, oops, it appears you have to enter the virtual channels 12.1 and 12.2, respectively.
> 
> KUIL 43.5 and 43.6, real RF.
> 
> K36ID-D 36.5, 36.6, real RF.
> 
> 
> 
> I can ONLY recieve a station (that is not in scan) by punching up the RF channel. That means that if I have a conflict, I have to take the conflicting stations out of scan (memory). It sounds simple, but I'm not finding it so wonderful. The receiver displays virtual numbers, so I have little habitual reference to the rf numbers. Some are in clusters. And worse, I've taken to only turning on a set to watch something, not to play a numbers quiz.
> 
> I imagine when repacking comes, broadcasters might decide to give up on virual IDs to avoid problems. This foolishness should have ended with the analog shutdown.


----------



## Larry Kenney

In some markets, like here in San Francisco, the virtual channel numbers vs the transmitter channel numbers can be quite confusing. Here are a few examples:


KTVU 2 transmits on 44. KBCW 44 transmits on 45.

KRON 4 transmits on 38. KCNS 38 transmits on 39.

KVIE 6 transmits on 9. KQED 9 transmits on 30.

KEMO 50 transmits on 32. KMTP 32 transmits on 33. KQEH 54 transmits on 50.


That's just a few of the wierd combinations.


Stations should have been made to go with their RF channel numbers for their ID when analog TV ended. Any confusion would have ended in a few days. It's now been over three years and counting and many are still confused.


Larry

SF


----------



## OTAhead

KVIE 6 transmits on RF channel 9 (VHF) in San Francisco as stated above, but KFDM 6 transmits on RF channel 25 (UHF) here in Beaumont, Tx.


ONLY the government could come up with something that idiotic...


----------



## Calaveras

Here's the worst mess I have here:


KBSV - Virtual 23, Real 15

KLFB - Virtual 22, Real 22

KRCB - Virtual 22, Real 23

KEXT - Virtual 23, Real 23


Right now I have KBSV and KLFB scanned in since they are the strongest. Officially KBSV and KEXT are in-market stations. How do I get the TV to tune to real 23 with no direct channel entry? I can't. What a mess. Without virtual channels I'd just point the antenna towards the station, enter the RF number and I'd receive the station or not.


Chuck


----------



## Larry Kenney

One thing I forgot to mention above where having virtual channels is a problem is when you want to manually go to a transmitter channel. I've found that if you tune to the transmitter channel, you often are able to peak the antenna to pull in a distant station that is not picked up during a scan. The receiver gets enough signal to add the station to your station list and then you're able to receive it again later on.


Say I want to get KAXT into my channel list because it was missed when I did a scan. I punch in "42", the KAXT transmitter channel, and what do I get? KTNC 42 transmitting on channel 14. Wonderful, eh?


Larry

SF


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15030#post_22220714
> 
> 
> One thing I forgot to mention above where having virtual channels is a problem is when you want to manually go to a transmitter channel. I've found that if you tune to the transmitter channel, you often are able to peak the antenna to pull in a distant station that is not picked up during a scan. The receiver gets enough signal to add the station to your station list and then you're able to receive it again later on.
> 
> Say I want to get KAXT into my channel list because it was missed when I did a scan. I punch in "42", the KAXT transmitter channel, and what do I get? KTNC 42 transmitting on channel 14. Wonderful, eh?
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF


-

I have been told that the conflict here with KTNC and KAXT might be resolved with a "memory dump". Perform a complete OTA scan with no antenna to remove all stations from memory. Turn the power off to the receiver. Turn power back on. It may then be possible to enter "42". and receive KAXT, there being no prejudice in memory for KTNC. My reciever will not hunt a virual channel number, but will display and remember one. The drawback to a "memory dump" is that one will have to manually put back all stations into memory.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15030#post_22224121
> 
> 
> -
> 
> I have been told that the conflict here with KTNC and KAXT might be resolved with a "memory dump". My reciever will not hunt a virual channel number, but will display and remember one. The drawback to a "memory dump" is that one will have to manually put back all stations into memory.



Sounds like a plan that would work. Only problem is having to add all of the stations now in memory... that'd be a very time consuming task.


Larry

SF


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15030#post_22228106
> 
> 
> Sounds like a plan that would work. Only problem is having to add all of the stations now in memory... that'd be a very time consuming task.
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF



Yep. One could write down all the RF channels and antenna vectors before hand, and simplfy the process.And, all that is required is the channel, the subchannels come with it. I'm waiting to get ambitious enough to do it. I've only got about 25 stations to enter, so it won't be as big a job as some might have. But I am going to have to get ambitious.


----------



## difuse

UPDATE.

I had no trouble deleting a channel from memory, turning the rceiver off, and then having no memory of it left. Simple and easy. No need to delete the entire scan or cut power.


----------



## SubaruB4

I'm not sure if this is the right thread.. but I'm going frustrated I'm having an issue getting WNBC here in CT to watch the Olympics.. first of all I did a channel scan and I have a combiner so I get around 22 channels..


Anyways I noticed WNBC was not listed.. So I ended up punching in the UHF number of 28 and it gets added! and I watched it for 4-5 hours with no break up, Now I don't get any signal and if I do it's really really broken up..


All my other UHF channels are fine. I'm not sure what's wrong but I'm using a silver sensor outdoors which I have been for 3 years and maybe it's just showing it's age?


It's sitting in my window on top of my AC unit maybe 17 Ft off the ground? I was thinking about getting a Antenna direct C2 with a 40 inch jpole to mount on the side of the AC unit to get some extra height as much as I can.


The antenna on my apartment complex sadly is VHF only and I have no complaints about it.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d990044c55ddbcc


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SubaruB4*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15060#post_22264319
> 
> 
> Anyways I noticed WNBC was not listed.. So I ended up punching in the UHF number of 28 and it gets added! and I watched it for 4-5 hours with no break up, Now I don't get any signal and if I do it's really really broken up.



My guess is that your antenna is in an unlucky location for that one station. Moving the antenna to a different spot or higher or lower might work. Since you don't have LOS to your stations, atmospheric conditions can affect the signals quite a bit which is why you see the station come and go. It might require a different antenna. You'll have to experiment. There's no easy sure fire answer.


----------



## SubaruB4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15060#post_22264541
> 
> 
> My guess is that your antenna is in an unlucky location for that one station. Moving the antenna to a different spot or higher or lower might work. Since you don't have LOS to your stations, atmospheric conditions can affect the signals quite a bit which is why you see the station come and go. It might require a different antenna. You'll have to experiment. There's no easy sure fire answer.


I think it must be atmospheric conditions plus the antenna height.. I'm thinking about maybe this week or next changing it out to see how it goes maybe about an extra 4 Ft higher then it's current 11 Ft off the ground height.


Crazy because the station looked really good when I was watching.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SubaruB4*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15060#post_22264553
> 
> 
> I think it must be atmospheric conditions plus the antenna height.. I'm thinking about maybe this week or next changing it out to see how it goes maybe about an extra 4 Ft higher then it's current 11 Ft off the ground height.
> 
> Crazy because the station looked really good when I was watching.



Hi,


Try entering your exact address into:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90 


Then select "Show lines pointing to each transmitter" and select WNBC below.


Using just your zip code and zooming in and out shows a unclear patten, your exact address hopefully will be green.


Moving left and right may also help, front and back may be harder to do but you have three directions that might produce better results.


But moving your antenna in any direction may lose or add other stations.


SHF


----------



## SubaruB4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15060#post_22264629
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Try entering your exact address into:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90
> 
> Then select "Show lines pointing to each transmitter" and select WNBC below.
> 
> Using just your zip code and zooming in and out shows a unclear patten, your exact address hopefully will be green.
> 
> Moving left and right may also help, front and back may be harder to do but you have three directions that might produce better results.
> 
> But moving your antenna in any direction may lose or add other stations.
> 
> SHF



Here is mine I forgot to change the antenna height but it's maybe 13 Ft which I doubt is going to make much of a difference.. In the morning I will check what my new setup will be I think it will be an extra 3-4 ft taller.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SubaruB4*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15060#post_22264660
> 
> 
> Here is mine I forgot to change the antenna height but it's maybe 13 Ft which I doubt is going to make much of a difference.. In the morning I will check what my new setup will be I think it will be an extra 3-4 ft taller.



Hi,


I am wondering what the terrian is near you.


That color pattern (which is what I got using just your zipcode) makes me wonder if you are in a small valley with a hill or two between you and the transmittor.


On the original TVFool click on WNBC.


You will get a display of the hills and valleys between you and the transmittor.


But I am unedicated as to how to understand such an almost flat pattern, I am more used to lots more hills in the way. I am not even sure which end is which.


If you wish, send me a PM (Please do not post) with your Lat. and Lon. and I can use my mapping program to check closer.


At ~ 28 miles I am also puzzled by so many 1Edge entries.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d99003ff02506fe 


My main stations are ~ 36 miles and LOS. I just checked and the station at ~ 97 miles is just fine right now.


I hope someone more knowledagable will help explain and help more.


I find the Google earth TVFool page to be more understandable, but then I do a lot of mapping.


SHF


----------



## SubaruB4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15060#post_22266898
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I am wondering what the terrian is near you.
> 
> That color pattern (which is what I got using just your zipcode) makes me wonder if you are in a small valley with a hill or two between you and the transmittor.
> 
> On the original TVFool click on WNBC.
> 
> You will get a display of the hills and valleys between you and the transmittor.
> 
> But I am unedicated as to how to understand such an almost flat pattern, I am more used to lots more hills in the way. I am not even sure which end is which.
> 
> 
> If you wish, send me a PM (Please do not post) with your Lat. and Lon. and I can use my mapping program to check closer.
> 
> At ~ 28 miles I am also puzzled by so many 1Edge entries.
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d99003ff02506fe
> 
> My main stations are ~ 36 miles and LOS. I just checked and the station at ~ 97 miles is just fine right now.
> 
> I hope someone more knowledagable will help explain and help more.
> 
> I find the Google earth TVFool page to be more understandable, but then I do a lot of mapping.
> 
> SHF



Yep you got it right I'm in a valley.. when it says LOS does that mean I need to point my antenna LOS or does that mean I would have a clear LOS view from the transmitter to my home?


I will PM you the coordinates.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SubaruB4*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15060#post_22266950
> 
> 
> Yep you got it right I'm in a valley.. when it says LOS does that mean I need to point my antenna LOS or does that mean I would have a clear LOS view from the transmitter to my home?
> 
> I will PM you the coordinates.



Hi,


LOS = Line of sight, yes "clear LOS view from the transmitter to my home?"


No hills or mountains in the way.


Click on "KEMO-TV" to see what is in the way of my 1Edge ~ 97 mile station.


Click on "KRCB-DT" to see an ideal LOS to my ~ 75 mile station.


They both are possible as much of the path is over water (SF Bay).


But the weather may stop both or one of them.


SHF


----------



## SubaruB4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15060#post_22267016
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> LOS = Line of sight, yes "clear LOS view from the transmitter to my home?"
> 
> No hills or mountains in the way.
> 
> Click on "KEMO-TV" to see what is in the way of my 1Edge ~ 97 mile station.
> 
> Click on "KRCB-DT" to see an ideal LOS to my ~ 75 mile station.
> 
> They both are possible as much of the path is over water (SF Bay).
> 
> But the weather may stop both or one of them.
> 
> SHF



I put my coordinates in and the list changed a bit to where the location of the antenna is.


Funny how it says WNBC is LOS but I have my doubts.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9900b7b85fc867


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SubaruB4*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15060#post_22267033
> 
> 
> I put my coordinates in and the list changed a bit to where the location of the antenna is.
> 
> Funny how it says WNBC is LOS but I have my doubts.
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9900b7b85fc867



Hi,


That is quite a difference.


How does the LOS entries in the new TVFool match the 22 channels?


Perhaps you need to tell us again what your antenna system is. I do not like the term "combiner" you used.


If the antennas are a VHF one on the roof and a UHF only one combined with a VHF / UHF combiner, then that is fine.


Otherwise, you need to tell us more so we can help you better.


SHF


----------



## SubaruB4

Oh another thing about WNBC is it's all coming from the same transmitter site (Empire Sate Building) which is a little baffling.. maybe WNBC's transmitter is lower then the others? because it too is showing LOS.


But as of 40 min ago I opened my window to look at the UHF antenna and poof.. WNBC came on with no breakups..


I'm going to raise it another 40 inches but I have a question about a J-pole antenna mount.. Because how I have to mount it I have swing out screens, so in order for the antenna not to hit the screen I have to angle the Jpole mount but then I would need to tilt the antenna up to compensate for that tilt, I was wondering if some adapter allowed that for the antenna?


----------



## SubaruB4





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15060#post_22267068
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> That is quite a difference.
> 
> How does the LOS entries in the new TVFool match the 22 channels?
> 
> Perhaps you need to tell us again what your antenna system is. I do not like the term "combiner" you used.
> 
> If the antennas are a VHF one on the roof and a UHF only one combined with a VHF / UHF combiner, then that is fine.
> 
> Otherwise, you need to tell us more so we can help you better.
> 
> SHF



Sorry did not see this message.


The VHF antenna is on the Roof so I pretty much get the bulk of my channels from that, the combiner is being used with the UHF antenna on my window AC unit which it has been in the same spot for about 3 years now with minor adjustments... It's not really outdoor rated but has done better then I thought. But I'm using a UVSJ combiner.


The TV fool is about spot on but I don't get WLIW OR WNYE


I can get WPIX very good despite it showing in yellow


Also W27CD seems to be a local station in Stamford which is not far from me but I think it's analog only? no big deal I was just curious about it.


Also WPXN is show a co-channel warning but a co-channel of what other channel? Because that channel will break up but not fully go out, WMBC does not come in, if I remember right UHF is very directional but I did not think that much.. but I guess being that far from the transmitter site a few degrees = a few miles of pointing on my end.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SubaruB4*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15060#post_22267143



Hi,


I am going to pass you onto others for better help.


SHF


----------



## SubaruB4

Thanks for trying to help out anyways


----------



## fireflimoon

Hi Calaveras,


A while back you suggested a Winegard 8700 to use with the M8 I built for my mom whose tvfool is

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9900c34f2b55a9 


and this worked out quite well as she has CBS, NBC, VPT, and V (among the total of 19 channels when including the subchannels) which is a surprise because the signal strength is not listed as very strong.


Maybe the info will help someone else.


Thanks again


----------



## fireflimoon

I meant V channel 30, not the other one!


----------



## SubaruB4

Wow I found something else out.. If I put my shade down where the UHF antenna is WNBC drops away to no signal.. Odd... it's in front of a window.. the shade is inside on the other side of the glass and is plastic.. Odd...


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Yep you got it right I'm in a valley.. when it says LOS does that mean I need to point my antenna LOS or does that mean I would have a clear LOS view from the transmitter to my home?



LOS means you have Line Of Sight clear to the transmitter. In a valley, tilting the antenna to aim for the top of the hill usually helps.



> Quote:
> Wow I found something else out.. If I put my shade down where the UHF antenna is WNBC drops away to no signal.. Odd... it's in front of a window.. the shade is inside on the other side of the glass and is plastic.. Odd...


The plastic may have some metallic content in it.


----------



## Dave Loudin

@Subaru84, there are many ways that local features can spoil reception. This ( http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html ) page explains this very well. Note in the illustrations that the hot/cold bands for VHF are much thicker than for UHF. This is due to the different wavelengths of the signals. Since every channel's wavelength is different, no two channels will have exactly the same interference pattern.


So, what I'm trying to get at is your antenna may be in a local cold spot for WNBC. Moving the antenna up/down/sideways a little may be all you have to do. However, if this is your problem, moving the antenna may make another channel worse.


@SFischer1, on TVFool's path profiles, the transmitter is always on the far left (the white-hot signal shows you) and your receive location is always on the far right. It is often very hard to see where the terrain blockage is on a long path without many features, as there aren't enough pixels to go around.


----------



## SubaruB4




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15060#post_22267558
> 
> 
> LOS means you have Line Of Sight clear to the transmitter. In a valley, tilting the antenna to aim for the top of the hill usually helps.
> 
> The plastic may have some metallic content in it.



Thats what I've been doing.. However do they make something that allows you to tilt a antenna on a Jpole? I know the Jpole can tilt at the base but I need something to tilt at the antenna end or the way I have to mount it will have the antenna pointing towards the ground


Also I'm sitting here and it's weird.. If I leave my seat (I sit right in front of my 40") My signal goes away but as soon as I sit back down I get a signal but it's broken up, but If I hold my hand out pointed to the antenna I get a signal..


It confuses me because I'm inside and somehow I must be acting a reflector.. possible multipath interference? I've never seen anything like that.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dave Loudin*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15060#post_22267672
> 
> 
> @Subaru84, there are many ways that local features can spoil reception. This ( http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html ) page explains this very well. Note in the illustrations that the hot/cold bands for VHF are much thicker than for UHF. This is due to the different wavelengths of the signals. Since every channel's wavelength is different, no two channels will have exactly the same interference pattern.
> 
> So, what I'm trying to get at is your antenna may be in a local cold spot for WNBC. Moving the antenna up/down/sideways a little may be all you have to do. However, if this is your problem, moving the antenna may make another channel worse.
> 
> @SFischer1, on TVFool's path profiles, the transmitter is always on the far left (the white-hot signal shows you) and your receive location is always on the far right. It is often very hard to see where the terrain blockage is on a long path without many features, as there aren't enough pixels to go around.


Yeah but lucky for me most of the channels I watch are on VHF but WNBC is the only one I care about that's on UHF I'm trying to get so if I can get that and drop the other UHF stations I would not mind.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SubaruB4*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15060#post_22267143
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> The TV fool is about spot on but I don't get WLIW OR WNYE. I can get WPIX very good despite it showing in yellow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yellow is not weak. With an outdoor on the roof VHF antenna I would expect that any station with a noise margin of 29 dB to be easy.
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Also W27CD seems to be a local station in Stamford which is not far from me but I think it's analog only? no big deal I was just curious about it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> W27CD has a construction permit for channel 43 but I don't think they're on the air. They look to be analog only on 27.
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Also WPXN is show a co-channel warning but a co-channel of what other channel?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Look farther down the list. It is co-channel with WTIC. WPXN is predicted to be 30 dB stronger so the co-channel shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Because that channel will break up but not fully go out, WMBC does not come in, if I remember right UHF is very directional but I did not think that much.. but I guess being that far from the transmitter site a few degrees = a few miles of pointing on my end.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dave and I have told you the same thing. It's most likely antenna location. With a good antenna 30' off the ground and a rotor you should be able to receive most every station that is above 0 dB noise margin in your TV Fool list. I wish I had it so good.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chuck
Click to expand...


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15060#post_22267558
> 
> 
> In a valley, tilting the antenna to aim for the top of the hill usually helps.



I usually leave this stuff alone but this is one that drives me crazy.










Tilting the antenna up or down a little cannot possibly make any difference in the signal strength. The 1 dB vertical beamwidth on almost any antenna is a least 20 degrees wide. Tilting it a few degrees cannot make any difference.


Now, if in the rare case it actually does make a difference, the reason is that a reflection has been moved into a null on a side or back lobe increasing the SNR. That's just luck of the draw like opening or closing the window shades or changing the antenna position by some amount. You're just as likely to lose a station as you are to gain one by tilting the antenna if you have multipath issues.


Chuck


----------



## SubaruB4

I wish I had my own place because I would never have to post this but like I said it's impossible to get my antenna 30' ft in the air.. my antenna is already 11ft AGL to try and get an extra 19 Ft would be crazy with a Jpole mounted to a AC unit


A rotator would be useless for the reasons above


I really don't have it easy at all










I bet things would be a lot better if I lived on the 3rd floor I think it's like 50 or so feet AGL.


I don't think I can get WMBC until I elevate the antenna.


As for W27CD it seems like they are off the air because of the sell of the station or perhaps the station was not included in the sell of WLNY.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SubaruB4*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15060#post_22267861
> 
> 
> I
> 
> I really don't have it easy at all
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



You don't know how bad bad can be.










Take a look at my TV Fool Results:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d990069cc29623c 


The first 4 stations on my list are foreign language stations. The first English station is KSBW at 115 miles away but actually comes in fine.


The first local station I care about in the list is KXTV which shows a noise margin of only 4.9 dB. My weakest local station I care about is KSPX with a noise margin -8.8 dB. Fortunately TV Fool under-predicts the signal strengths and I can receive all my local stations. But an antenna at my house receives none of my local stations. In order to receive my local stations I have the antenna shown in my avatar 400' away up my hill on a 70' tower. Anything less doesn't work.


Chuck


----------



## SubaruB4

wow that's pretty bad..


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SubaruB4*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15060#post_22268510
> 
> 
> wow that's pretty bad..



Hi,


Actually it's pretty wonderful. YMMV


Some of us like to live in the mountains, I live in Silicon Valley (San Jose Ca area) but the best times of my life have been riding a motorcycle close to wilderness to the east of where he lives.


I found the shadow of his tower using google earth. That's no longer possible as they changed their photos.



Transfer Chuck's Lat.and Lon. from his TVFool to:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90 


and then zoom out.


I wish I was there all the time.


SHF


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15060#post_22268595
> 
> 
> I found the shadow of his tower using google earth. That's no longer possible as they changed their photos.



I just went to Google Earth and they have brand new high resolution imagery for my area - 6/10/2012. First hi-res imagery. I can see the shadows of both towers and the antennas on the 72' tower. I can see the shadows of the TV antennas on the 55' tower but I can't see the antennas themselves. Bad contrast. I can see the the two coax runs on the ground. I can see where I was in the middle of weed whacking at that date. The smallest details I can make out are about 6". Looks like the image was taken about 12 noon PDT judging by the position of the shadows.


Chuck


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15060#post_22269341
> 
> 
> I just went to Google Earth and they have brand new high resolution imagery for my area - 6/10/2012. First hi-res imagery. I can see the shadows of both towers and the antennas on the 72' tower. I can see the shadows of the TV antennas on the 55' tower but I can't see the antennas themselves. Bad contrast. I can see the the two coax runs on the ground. I can see where I was in the middle of weed whacking at that date. The smallest details I can make out are about 6". Looks like the image was taken about 12 noon PDT judging by the position of the shadows.
> 
> Chuck



Hi,


I will have to take the time to look at your location again.

EDIT: There sure is a big increase in resolution. HINT: click on the date shown at the bottom and you can see previous images. Finding your towers this time was a breeze.

I looked at my location, in 1948 all there were was fruit trees.


What you report means that we soon will be able to see what the (No Such Agency or Never Say Anything) can see.


One thing I learned, you cannot find anything without knowing where it is. I searched for several hours trying to find the prison near Susanville. No luck at all. Then I remembered the name and looked it up on the web. I found it then, way out of town.


Perhaps it will be normal for this list to look at antennas on peoples roofs to help them in the future.


SHF


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15060#post_22268478
> 
> 
> You don't know how bad bad can be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Take a look at my TV Fool Results:
> 
> Chuck



I was surprised to see that there are no Sutro Tower or Mt. San Bruno stations on your TV Fool list. You're receiving stations below the -32 dB NM! Wow!


Larry


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15060#post_22270988
> 
> 
> I was surprised to see that there are no Sutro Tower or Mt. San Bruno stations on your TV Fool list. You're receiving stations below the -32 dB NM! Wow!
> 
> Larry



My TV Fool results for stations shown as gray (NM 

If you click on Only Digital you can get KGO 7 to show up at NM -32 dB. It should be around -8 dB. It shows KAIL 7 Fresno at -14 dB which I rarely receive and KRNV 7 Reno at -24 dB which I've never seen.


Way down the list is KSTS on 49 at -28 dB yet I receive that essentially 100%.


I can't make any sense out of it.


Chuck


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15060#post_22269485
> 
> 
> EDIT: There sure is a big increase in resolution. HINT: click on the date shown at the bottom and you can see previous images. Finding your towers this time was a breeze.
> I looked at my location, in 1948 all there were was fruit trees.



There's only an aerial photo from 1998 and it doesn't look that much different around here except for more homes. The vegetation is mostly unchanged.


I looked at where I lived in Sunnyvale on the 1948 photo and my old house was there but there weren't many roads.... like no Central Expressway. 


Chuck


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15090#post_22273187
> 
> 
> There's only an aerial photo from 1998 and it doesn't look that much different around here except for more homes. The vegetation is mostly unchanged.
> 
> I looked at where I lived in Sunnyvale on the 1948 photo and my old house was there but there weren't many roads.... like no Central Expressway.
> 
> Chuck



Hi,


Try again, I get ~ 10 different images for your location. Move your mouse to the upper left corner of the photo. A slider should appear. If not, check if you have the latest Google Earth or you need to wait for your slow ISP (What is your new speed, anything close to DSL 1.3 which is what I have.).


PM me if you can't find the slider, use the arrows at either end to jump when you have it.


It might be the exact Lat. Lon. I used and saved after I found your tower before, I will not give that out in any public place thus the PM.


SHF


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15090#post_22273247
> 
> 
> Try again, I get ~ 10 different images for your location.



Sorry. I wasn't clear. I didn't mean that 1998 was the only image. I meant that the images for this area only went back to 1998. I know there are a bunch of images and some are pretty low res.










Chuck


----------



## tylerSC

Mr. Calaveras, looking at the photo in your avatar, you have one of the premiere antenna set ups available today. Looks like 2 91XGs for UHF and 2 Winegard 1713s for HiVHF. What type of splitters did you use to connect the duplicate antennas, and what type of preamp are you using? And did you use a UVSJ?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15090#post_22274291
> 
> 
> Mr. Calaveras, looking at the photo in your avatar, you have one of the premiere antenna set ups available today. Looks like 2 91XGs for UHF and 2 Winegard 1713s for HiVHF. What type of splitters did you use to connect the duplicate antennas, and what type of preamp are you using? And did you use a UVSJ?



"Chuck" is good enough.










The VHF antennas are a pair of homemade log periodics. The 1713 doesn't have a very good F/B ratio and that was all important at my location. Details are here although the page needs a little updating:

http://www.aa6g.org/Lp/lp.html 


What's not visible in the avatar is an FM antenna below the TV antennas that is part of the system.


I spent a lot of time optimizing the antennas for the best system noise figure I could get. I am not using a standard ferrite power combiner to combine the antenna pairs. Instead I use 1/4 wave matching sections of 50 ohm coax to transform 37.5 ohms (two antennas in parallel) to the 75 ohm preamps. The matching section and the coax from each antenna is soldered together inside a small metal box. I measured the loss and there is no loss beyond that in the coax itself unlike ferrite combiners which add 0.5 to 1 dB loss.


I also eliminated the 91XG transformers by using a 4:1 coax balun made out of 93 ohm coax. This picked up another 0.5 to 1 dB since the coax balun loss is only 0.1 dB or so.


On UHF I'm using a 30 dB gain 2.0 dB noise figure Tinlee preamp. Philip Lee at Tinlee told me the noise figure typically measures 1.5 dB. On VHF I'm using a Kitztech 0.4 dB noise figure preamp. I can get away with a preamp with no filtering here because I have no very strong VHF signals to overload it. I'm using a Tinelee 16 dB gain preamp on FM.


I'm using Tinlee diplexers which pass DC on all ports. The FM and high VHF antennas are combined through a diplexer that splits the bands at 156 MHz. One port passes


----------



## OTAhead









Wow!


----------



## Satcom15

Well, thank goodness for OTA! The other day we had a thunderstorm with considerable lightning. We were watching the Olympics on our cable and there was a nearby flash, with immediate clap of thunder. The TV went black. Cable box was still good. After doing some trouble shooting, determined that the Denon 1312 A/V receiver HDMI input for the HD cable box signal got fried. Moved the cable input to the Gaming input port and every thing was peachy - no big deal. 30 minutes later, another lightning strike nearby did the same thing, the port was toast.


The cable box was still operating fine - I could connect the HDMI cable direct to the TV and it worked like a champ. You'd have thought the box would have been trash before the A/V receiver given the long RF cable from the house entry point to the cable box. Apparently the receiver input circuitry is very sensitive to transients. The HDMI Cable was 6 feet. Its interesting to think that a fairly short HDMI cable would have had enough voltage/current induced on it to fry the A/V receiver front end. Apparently the TV has better filtering or is less sensitive to EMI. There is a 6 ft HDMI cable from the A/V receiver to the TV. There was never a problem with the TV (42 inch Panny plasma).


So after the second event, moved the cable to Aux port (which still worked) and connected the rabbit ears to the TV (I have a strong signal from Cheyenne Mtn here in Colorado Springs 12 miles away). I went back to watching the Olympics OTA in the midst of a thunderstorm with no more outages. Hurray for OTA!


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15090#post_22274923
> 
> 
> The VHF antennas are a pair of homemade log periodics. The 1713 doesn't have a very good F/B ratio and that was all important at my location. Details are here although the page needs a little updating:
> http://www.aa6g.org/Lp/lp.html



Thanks for the details on your antenna system and the link for further information.


Excellent design, Chuck!


73,

rabbit


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15090#post_22278384
> 
> 
> Thanks for the details on your antenna system and the link for further information.
> 
> Excellent design, Chuck!
> 
> 73,
> 
> rabbit[/qu ote] Yes excellent explanation of outstanding set up. Thank you.


----------



## Satcom15

Calavaras - I was wondering about your location. Your handle and location implies Calavaras county and brings back fond memories of growing up in CA. My grandparents used to live in Murphys (back in the 50s and 60s) just off Hwy 4. Visiting was something I looked forward to - the drive was always fun. My other grandmother lived in SF, at one time near the corner of Haight-Ashbury and other times in the Mission District on Social Security no less. My mom couldn't stand going to H-A because of: "all those dirty hippies". I thought it was a hoot. Mission district was cool. She had a nice view of the city from her flat. She left SF before Sutro Tower was built. I remember the contraversy about it and Herb Caen's columns in the Chronicle. My Meteorology Dept at San Jose State had instruments at various levels in the 70s. Some pretty amazing temperature inversions associated with the marine layer and fog were observed. I often wondered how that could be translated into anomalous propagation (ducting) of the TV signals. The depth of the marine layer varies. Sometimes the top of the tower was above it, sometimes in it. Interesting. Several generations of us are native Californians. I spent the better part of my youth growing up in Cupertino - though it was mainly orchards when I was a kid back in the 60s. CA and the SF Bay area was a great place to grow up. What an experience! Now I live in CO - not nearly the same thing. *sigh*


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Satcom15*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15090#post_22280171
> 
> 
> Calavaras - I was wondering about your location. Your handle and location implies Calavaras county and brings back fond memories of growing up in CA.



Yes, I live pretty much in the middle of Calaveras County, about 7 miles NNW of Murphys. I went to elementary and junior high in San Lorenzo in the 60's when KQED had translators in Hollister on UHF channels in the 80's, TV Guide listed Sacramento and Redding, and KSBW carried the blacked out Raider games.







I went to high school in Fremont and lived in Sunnyvale and Fremont when I was working. I did a lot of TV experimentation when I lived in Sunnyvale since it was a pretty good location to receive out of the area stations. Even though I don't live in the Bay Area anymore I have a long history there and still have an interest in what goes on in the Bay Area TV world.


Chuck


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15090#post_22280269
> 
> 
> Yes, I live pretty much in the middle of Calaveras County, about 7 miles NNW of Murphys. I went to elementary and junior high in San Lorenzo in the 60's when KQED had translators in Hollister on UHF channels in the 80's, TV Guide listed Sacramento and Redding, and KSBW carried the blacked out Raider games.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I went to high school in Fremont and lived in Sunnyvale and Fremont when I was working. I did a lot of TV experimentation when I lived in Sunnyvale since it was a pretty good location to receive out of the area stations. Even though I don't live in the Bay Area anymore I have a long history there and still have an interest in what goes on in the Bay Area TV world.
> 
> Chuck



Thanks for the memory ticklers. Do you recall the Ch 11 KNTV "auxiliary" antennas? They were handed out to get people in the South Bay area to watch (it as an ABC affiliate then). The transmitter was on Loma Prieta, about 180 deg from all the transmitters in SF (San Bruno Mountain for the most part). Unless you had a rotator or poor F/B ration on your antenna, Ch 11 reception was not good - I don't believe they had a lot of power. You could get the antenna free (a two element driver/reflector design) with instructions: first cut the 300 ohm twin lead, strip the wires, connect the TV end to one set of connectors on a weather sealed blue box and the antenna end to the other set. Then you'd point the antenna at Loma Prieta per the little diagram in the instruction sheet which showed the ridge line with Mt Umunhum to the right. I remember being on the roof helping my dad doing the installation. And, how could I forget the Moffitt Field bound aircraft induced fence post multipath interference on our tube electronics B&W TV. Or, the periodic buzz on AM radio from the Mt Umunhum radar beam as it swept by. Blacked out football games, thanks for the reminder - I was a 49er fan







It was a different era that's for sure.









Nick


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Satcom15*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15090#post_22280664
> 
> 
> Thanks for the memory ticklers. Do you recall the Ch 11 KNTV "auxiliary" antennas? They were handed out to get people in the South Bay area to watch (it as an ABC affiliate then).



No. In San Lorenzo it was not necessary to receive KNTV as we had KGO for ABC. KNTV was always an "odd man out" station in the Bay Area until they moved to Mt. San Bruno and became an NBC affiliate. I always thought of KNTV as a Salinas/Monterey station.


This is OT here so if you want to continue this we should move to the SF local thread. Maybe the Mods could move these last 4 posts over there.


Chuck


----------



## stgdz

Got my double bay hoverman installed in the attic, pretty decent connections from where I am at 50%. Going to add the tinfoil backer tomorrow. What are the dimensions and pacement from the antenna? Some of the channels are down below 30% and big signal loss



I have two VHF channels that I need to get, thinking of doing this one
https://sites.google.com/site/maycreates/ota-setup/diy-vhf-loop-antenna 


what combiner should I get?


----------



## haenck

Better than Flatwave?


Right now, I am using a Winegard Flatwave, purchased from Costco with my LG HDTV. I am quite happy with the results, and seem to receive stations that TV Fool indicates would be fairly difficult. I am blessed with an advantageous location for TV reception, I guess.


Most of the channels I get are UHF and there a couple that I really enjoy, that are somewhat intermittent. Would there be a better choice for an indoor antenna? Specifically, the Antennas Direct DB2e? Or any of the the dual bowties?


----------



## ADTech

haenck,


If you provide both your TVFool plot and a summary of the problem stations, your question can be better answered.


----------



## haenck

 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5ed6a6ddd6a31d


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *haenck*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15090#post_22395670
> 
> 
> I realize CIII is a very long shot, but I get it maybe two days per week. WGTE- the other Toledo stations come in reliably.



CIII looks pretty hopeless to me. You're likely getting a lot of help from atmospheric bending of the signal when you do receive. I wouldn't expect you'd be able to receive it reliably even with a good outdoor antenna.


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *haenck*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15090#post_22395670
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5ed6a6ddd6a31d


----------



## haenck

 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5ed641699972e3 


The above link is based on a better estimate of my antenna height...


I kinda figured 22 was hopeless... but several times a week, both 16 (CHWI) and 22 (CIII) come in... and it is cool getting stuff from Ontario.


What about WGTE? I get most other Toledo stations- 11/13/24 reliably, 36 less so. Would a swap to some other antenna help here?


----------



## perfy

TVFOOL Link: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5ed6ddd7c96875 


Hi Everyone, I am new to the antenna world, but I cancelled cable so here I am. I jsut tried a LEAF indoor antenna that I got off amazon last night and the only channel that really came in was one of the spanish channels, but it came in beautfiully.


Looking at my tvfool report, it shows most of the channels are 45 miles away and a few that are 15. Given that distance and the fact that I had horrible luck with the LEAF, would you recommend an outdoor antenna on my roof?


My house is a single family-single floor


----------



## A J




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *perfy*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15090#post_22402505
> 
> 
> Looking at my tvfool report, it shows most of the channels are 45 miles away and a few that are 15. Given that distance and the fact that I had horrible luck with the LEAF, would you recommend an outdoor antenna on my roof?
> 
> My house is a single family-single floor



Wow, you have a ton of stations showing green on your TVFool and green indicates they should be good with an indoor antenna. Before you give up on the LEAF, you might experiment by trying different placements using a coax extension. You might try putting it on a north-facing wall, or better yet, window. Sometimes, moving an indoor antenna just a couple feet makes a world of difference.


If that proves unsatisfactory then a good outdoor-type antenna may be necessary. However, that type antenna placed in the attic often suffices (that's where I have mine). Again, it doesn't take long to experiment. If the attic installation works OK for you, it has advantages (protected from wind, no worry of lightening strikes, simple to mount). Of course, a rooftop installation will almost always provide the best reception, though it is a little ugly perched on the roof.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *perfy*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15090#post_22402505
> 
> 
> Looking at my tvfool report, it shows most of the channels are 45 miles away and a few that are 15. Given that distance and the fact that I had horrible luck with the LEAF, would you recommend an outdoor antenna on my roof?
> 
> My house is a single family-single floor



Most of the signals are in the green area of your TV Fool report, so you shouldn't have any problems receiving the stations with a medium sized roof top antenna. All of the stations you want to receive are transmitting from three locations that are all in the same general direction: the hills above Fremont, Mt. San Bruno - just south of San Francisco, and from Sutro Tower in San Francisco.


I would recommend something like the Winegard HD7696P. It's got sufficient gain to give you reliable reception even when conditions are not the best. Here's a link to information on the antenna from the Solid Signal company:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HD7696P&d=Winegard-HD7696P-High-Definition-VHFUHF-HD7696-Series-TV-Antenna-%28HD7696P%29&c=TV%20Antennas&sku= 


You'd point the end of the antenna with the short elements north-northwest in the direction of San Francisco. You'll, of course, need a mast, mount and coax, which you can buy at the same time and place as you buy the antenna. A five foot mast should be enough for you. You don't need to put the antenna up too high in San Jose to get a good shot at the transmitter sites. Figure out how much coax you'll need to go from the antenna to the back of your TV, allowing for bends around corners, etc., then get a roll of it that is the length that is the next highest. It's better to have a little extra than not enough.










There's no place around the Bay Area that sells a good variety of antennas, so you'll probably have to order on line and have it shipped to you. Frys Electronics stores have a few antennas, but they don't have much of a selection.


Let us know if you have any questions.


Larry

SF


----------



## perfy

Thank you. I actually just went to Fry's on my lunch break and purchased a $30 RCA amplified indoor antenna to try as well. I should say that my living room setup doesn't lend itself well to the leaf design. I tried two different ways to get reception last night. I have a tivo with a lifetime subscription on it, so I hooked it into that antenna port and did the channel scan. That received the "best" reception, although like I said only 1 solid clear channel, and a few static ones.


I also tried hooking it up to the TV directly. That TV is on a different wall, I believe facing west, (tivo is on north facing wall) and when I used the TV scan function that didn't find a single channel. I was surprised given the good things that I have heard about the leaf.


We don't have anything hanging on our walls yet so the leaf would actually be an eye sore. This rca model could blend in nicely behind our picture frames on a cabinet if it works out better. If not I will return it and go with the roof antenna that you suggest.


Edit: the model number is ANT1251


----------



## tylerSC

If you want to try a flat panel antenna, I would try the Mohu Leaf, Walltenna, or the HD Blade from Solid Signal. These versions have received better performance reults.


----------



## tylerSC

And they also say the Winegard Flatwave sold at Costco works well, but I don't like the 15ft cable attached to that one.


----------



## Calaveras

If you've tried a couple of indoor antennas in various locations and they have not worked then you need an outdoor antenna. Your TV Fool report shows all the major stations as Line-of-Sight, but are they really? Do you have trees and other buildings blocking the view? An antenna such as Larry recommended up in the clear will receive all the stations you're looking for.


Chuck


----------



## SkiSmuggs

Any experience with Jack antennas? I replaced the Winegard Wingman on my RV with a Jack antenna. I live 14 miles from the local towers with line of sight and get 12 digital channels (5 stations from 13-44 actual). I scanned with the Jack and picked up 6 additional. I looked them up on TVFool and was astounded to see they were 155 miles away. The Jack is versatile as it can be RV mounted or pole mounted and comes with its own amplifier. It is also small enough to use as an indoor antenna. I've ordered another one to replace my roof mounted DB4 as I do get some weather fade. It is under $50 from Amazon.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

The Jack antenna is a small antenna with a single (short) VHF dipole and a small UHF LPDA array. In general, a low-gain, not very directional antenna usually suitable for short range usage. In all, it's a good compromise for an RV due to its very compact size.


If you're getting stations from 155 miles away, it's not because you have a stellar or magic antenna, it's because you were experiencing exceptional atmospheric propagation of a signal that originated from well beyond the horizon. Google "tropospheric ducting" for details. Those stations won't be around long so have fun with them while they last.


----------



## mgustus

I've cut the cord. I'm getting a couple of channels with my Radio Shack Antennacraft 5MS921. I ready to step up. Here is my TVFool output.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5ed6b73bd72b45 


I'll be mounting the antenna on the roof where the Disk antenna was so it'll be about 15 feet up. Thank you for your time.


----------



## Calaveras

You have a challenging situation. Your stations range from extremely strong to extremely weak, LOS, 1 & 2 edge, VHF and UHF and in different directions. I'm assuming you'd like to receive all the main networks.


I'd suggest a Winegard HD7698P high VHF/UHF antenna or separate VHF/UHF antennas, the Winegard YA-1713 and CM4228 for example.


No preamp. It'll almost certainly get overloaded by those stations with a 69 dB noise margin.


A rotor will be required for the stations in different directions or multiple antennas pointed in different directions.


The antenna must not be down behind tress and buildings or you'll have little hope of receiving the weaker stations. 15' sounds kind of low to me. You need to clear all local obstructions.


Assuming you can receive the weaker stations, be prepared for dropouts on the 2 edge stations due to changing atmospheric conditions.


My TV Fool report is worse than yours and I receive all my stations most of the time but it requires good antennas in the clear so there is hope. See my avatar.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mgustus*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15090#post_22407573
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5ed6b73bd72b45



I'm familiar with those stations. I assume your main interest is in the Greenville-area stations, not the ones from Charlotte that also appear in your list. Your biggest problem is with WLOS (ABC) and WHNS (FOX) which are way down in the red zone. Many people in Greenville have trouble with WLOS because it tends to be blocked by the front line of mountains on the SC/NC border, even though it's way up high on Mt. Pisgah near Asheville. (I get decent reception with WLOS at 83 miles because I don't have that blockage, and I use the YA-1713 that Calaveras mentioned.) It looks like you have similar blockage problems with WHNS and even with WYFF (NBC) which is near Caesar's Head and has a clear view over most of the area.


Simply raising the antenna might help. Try running TVFool again with an antenna height of 25 or 30 feet.


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jtbell*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15120#post_22410995
> 
> 
> Your biggest problem is with WLOS (ABC) and WHNS (FOX) which are way down in the red zone. [...] and even with WYFF (NBC) which is near Caesar's Head and has a clear view over most of the area.



It just dawned on me... the top stations on your list, at 3.3 miles, are on top of Paris Mountain. The stations noted above are in pretty much the same direction and therefore are probably being blocked by Paris Mountain. If that's your problem, you'll have to use a really sensitive antenna, get it up as high as you can, and hope the strong signals from Paris Mountain don't kill your reception of the weaker stations by overloading your tuner.


If you go to TVFool's online coverage map browser

http://tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=80 


and enter, say, WHNS, you can see the "shadow" of Paris Mountain clearly, and zoom in on the map to see whether you're in it.


----------



## SkiSmuggs




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15090#post_22406930
> 
> 
> The Jack antenna is a small antenna with a single (short) VHF dipole and a small UHF LPDA array. In general, a low-gain, not very directional antenna usually suitable for short range usage. In all, it's a good compromise for an RV due to its very compact size.
> 
> If you're getting stations from 155 miles away, it's not because you have a stellar or magic antenna, it's because you were experiencing exceptional atmospheric propagation of a signal that originated from well beyond the horizon. Google "tropospheric ducting" for details. Those stations won't be around long so have fun with them while they last.


Thanks, I did mount it on the roof and couldn't get the extra channels, so you were right on. I will leave it in place to see how it deals with rain and snow fade. I'm hoping the amplifier helps with that. I noticed turning the amplifier on and off didn't make any difference on the VHF channel 13 station as the signal remained about 80% either way.


----------



## Beanturd

Hello,


I am wondering if there is a difference between


(what I have right now)
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11694069&znt_campaign=Category_CMS&znt_source=CAT&znt_medium=RSCOM&znt_content=CT2032189 


and

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12349516&znt_campaign=Category_CMS&znt_source=CAT&znt_medium=RSCOM&znt_content=CT2032189 


Additional info:


I currently live in South Brooklyn, in a second floor apartment of a six story brick building facing south. All towers are located directly north (about 9-15 miles). With the Antenacraft, I am able to get CBS, NBC, FOX, and UPN. I am unable to get ABC, CW, or PBS.


All I need are the channels listed before.


Indoor antenna is ideal; I'm not sure if I am able to install an outdoor antenna. Any suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated!


Thanks in advance!


----------



## mikepier

All of your stations come from the Empire State Bldg, so you are a lot closer that 9 miles from there, more like a mile or 2.


Those antenna you posted are amplified, something not needed and probabbly killing your signal. You need something as simple as this indoor budget antenna from Radio Shack:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103077&znt_campaign=Category_CMS&znt_source=CAT&znt_medium=RSCOM&znt_content=CT2032189 


Problem is your Apt faces south with no Line of sight to the ESB, so you have to move the antenna in a sweet spot by a window maybe.The higher you mount the antenna the better.


Also ABC, CW and PBS are VHF stations, which are a litte harder to get with an indoor antenna than the other stations which are UHF. But I bet its because of the amplified antenna you have. Try the budget antenna and test.


----------



## Beanturd




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mikepier*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15120#post_22421378
> 
> 
> All of your stations come from the Empire State Bldg, so you are a lot closer that 9 miles from there, more like a mile or 2.
> 
> Those antenna you posted are amplified, something not needed and probabbly killing your signal. You need something as simple as this indoor budget antenna from Radio Shack:
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103077&znt_campaign=Category_CMS&znt_source=CAT&znt_medium=RSCOM&znt_content=CT2032189
> 
> Problem is your Apt faces south with no Line of sight to the ESB, so you have to move the antenna in a sweet spot by a window maybe.The higher you mount the antenna the better.
> 
> Also ABC, CW and PBS are VHF stations, which are a litte harder to get with an indoor antenna than the other stations which are UHF. But I bet its because of the amplified antenna you have. Try the budget antenna and test.



Hi Mike, thanks for your helpful answer.


I actually did try that antenna at first but i had two problems


1) I don't have much room in my media center or window sill to place the antenna and make adjustments (signal was okay; I probably should have tried again after the thunderstorms but i returned it)


2) the ugliness doesn't help much with the wife factor


----------



## Beanturd

double post


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> 2) the ugliness doesn't help much with the wife factor



Better be careful how you say that one!


----------



## mikepier

One thing for sure is you do not need an amplified antenna.


With the budget antenna, the loop is for UHF channels, and the rabbit ears are for VHF channels,in your case 7,11, and 13. Try to aim the ears broadside to the south in hopes the signal will bounce off a bldg. Or if the Verrazanno bridge is within your sight, try aiming for that to maybe capture the bouncing signals. Otherwise your only other option is to put something on the roof. It does not need to be big.


----------



## cableuser001

Hi, Did anyone try these two antennas Phillps MANT940 and Phillips SDV8625T/27 . The former (MANT940) is something I tried long time back (borrowed from a friend), and it was great. I am looking for something similar or better, but is not sold anymore locally. I can find this new Phillips SDV8625T/27 locally and looks very similar to MANT940. Any experiences?


Also, I tried the GE Futura Antenna and though it is good, it is flaky on a couple of channels. Is there a way where I can use 2 similar antennas close together to get a better signal? Would it technically work? If so can I just use a splitter to do it (in reverse)?


I am about 23 miles from the stations, but any antenna location would be oriented away from the station direction. These are the only antennas that worked.



Thanks.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cableuser001*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15120#post_22424060
> 
> 
> Is there a way where I can use 2 similar antennas close together to get a better signal? Would it technically work? If so can I just use a splitter to do it (in reverse)?
> 
> I am about 23 miles from the stations, but any antenna location would be oriented away from the station direction. These are the only antennas that worked.
> 
> Thanks.



I'm probably sounding like a broken record but there is no magic to DTV reception and no magic antennas. For reliable reception the antenna needs to be high enough to clear all the local obstructions. As soon as you no longer have this condition like when the antenna is blocked by trees or buildings or is inside a building, you'll be dealing with multipath and reduced signal strength especially on VHF since it is poor at penetrating buildings. Whether any antenna works under less than optimal placement is just luck of the draw. No can tell you for sure which antenna will work the best in you situation. You're likely to get hugely different results with any antenna simply by moving it around the room.


Stacking indoor antennas is unlikely to improve your results. Antenna stacking in normally reserved for outdoor arrays to achieve specific results. Sounds like you're thinking that if one antenna receives this station and another receives that station then connecting the two together will receive both stations. Don't count on it.


----------



## preludejtstyle

I am trying to find an antenna for my girlfriend who lives in Middletown, Oh. 45044, woodridge dr, and wondering what strength antenna we need to pick a few local HD channels. Nothing specific in mind, but budget is probably only $35. Its about halfway between dayton and cincinnati, so it's hard to get much (is my guess from an attempt with an FM antenna)


any thoughts?


----------



## Calaveras

According to TV Fool it should be quite easy:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dcc49a2823be684 


If you want a more precise table go to tvfool.com and enter the address and exactly how high the antenna will be. It won't take a very big outside antenna to work.


Chuck


----------



## OTAhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *preludejtstyle*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15120#post_22534271
> 
> 
> I am trying to find an antenna for my girlfriend who lives in Middletown, Oh. 45044, woodridge dr, and wondering what strength antenna we need to pick a few local HD channels. Nothing specific in mind, but budget is probably only $35. Its about halfway between dayton and cincinnati, so it's hard to get much (is my guess from an attempt with an FM antenna)
> 
> any thoughts?



A good antenna that has pretty good gain numbers that I have installed twice now for friends of mine on a budget is the Winegard 7015. Check amazon.com or solidsignal.com


----------



## wildwillie6

I have two antennas with separate ChannelMaster 7777 amplifiers, both on a remote and difficult part of the roof to get to.


One of the antennas started returning no signal. Before climbing out, I just felt the inside power supplies and noticed that the one on the failed antenna was cool to the touch, while the still-working one was warm. (Duh.)


But my question is this: If I swap power supplies to diagnose the non-working antenna, is there some potential failure mode out at the amp on the mast that would cause this good power supply to fry itself?


Or, to put it another way, does the cool power supply indicate that it's the inside power supply that failed on that preamp -- and not the part mounted way out on the mast? Thanks!


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wildwillie6*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15120#post_22550930
> 
> 
> But my question is this: If I swap power supplies to diagnose the non-working antenna, is there some potential failure mode out at the amp on the mast that would cause this good power supply to fry itself?



I don't suppose you have a voltmeter that you could measure the output voltage on the cool supply?


I believe the risk of what you want to try is very low but not zero. Most power supplies have over current protection and won't burn up if you short them out, especially briefly.


> Quote:
> Or, to put it another way, does the cool power supply indicate that it's the inside power supply that failed on that preamp -- and not the part mounted way out on the mast? Thanks!



Probably, but even an unloaded power supply can use a little power and cause the supply to be warm.


You could put the working supply on the non-working antenna and see if that combination works. Again, low risk but not zero.


I'd swap supplies before taking down the antenna but I have a multi-meter for troubleshooting.


You assume the risk here.


----------



## wildwillie6

_I'd swap supplies before taking down the antenna but I have a multi-meter for troubleshooting.


You assume the risk here._


Thanks -- much appreciated . . . always dealing in probabilities.


----------



## rabbit73

*wildwillie6*:


This thread might help you:

*CM7777 preamp failure question*

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1336632/cm7777-preamp-failure-question


----------



## tylerSC

wildwillie, I assume you have the original 7777 preamp from Channel Master. I think the original power supply may still be available directly from Channel Master, or perhaps Warren Electronics. But probably any replacement power supply may work. Although you don't hear many recommendations regarding the new 7777 version, and the noise figure may be not as good. And no more dual inputs. Winegard is now probably a better preamp choice, and Antennacraft now has dual input models available as well.


----------



## rdcollns

 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dcc4968d1d499da 

This is from the Southside of Chicago.


Good day all, I have been running an HD antenna since I moved in my house (six years).


At first I used an indoor antenna I used when I lived downtown. It worked okay, but was very directional, so it didn't work with recording shows.


Then I discovered a rooftop antenna in my attic, and connected that. It was pretty darn good, and could actually tune in every station at once, but anytime the weather shifted (storm/pressure/seasons...) we would lose a station at random. It was extremely picky regarding the exact direction. I had full signals on nearly all stations even after a splitter, so I wondered if the signals were too strong.


I decided to downsize the antenna and bought the Antennas Direct DB2 (not DB2e). I mounted it in the attic on a rod that pokes through my ceiling so I can manually rotate it. I found the right direction and finally reached antenna nirvana.


Then my wife wanted a north facing bay window and as part of that we replaced some siding and soffits. The window had a metallic coating, the siding has foil covered insulation underneath, and of course the soffits replaced wood with aluminum.


Since then we have never been able to get all of the stations at once using any of the antennas. When I point to the direction shown on TV Fool, I get almost everything but CBS and WCIU. CBS works best with the antenna pointed straight east, WCIU is random. However, even when we angle in the right direction, sometimes we lose stations after a day or sometimes we even lose our signal when the computer starts recording. Regardless it always seems way too finicky, a night and day change since they did the work on the house.


If anyone has any advice, it would be appreciated. I just bought a second tuner so I could connect two separate antennas, but even then I have very low confidence. Maybe it would be okay if the computer was smart enough to choose between the two signals and select the best one, but as far as I am aware, that is not possible.


Thank you,

Bob


----------



## OTAhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rdcollns*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15120#post_22562709
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dcc4968d1d499da
> 
> This is from the Southside of Chicago.
> 
> Good day all, I have been running an HD antenna since I moved in my house (six years).
> 
> At first I used an indoor antenna I used when I lived downtown. It worked okay, but was very directional, so it didn't work with recording shows.
> 
> Then I discovered a rooftop antenna in my attic, and connected that. It was pretty darn good, and could actually tune in every station at once, but anytime the weather shifted (storm/pressure/seasons...) we would lose a station at random. It was extremely picky regarding the exact direction. I had full signals on nearly all stations even after a splitter, so I wondered if the signals were too strong.
> 
> I decided to downsize the antenna and bought the Antennas Direct DB2 (not DB2e). I mounted it in the attic on a rod that pokes through my ceiling so I can manually rotate it. I found the right direction and finally reached antenna nirvana.
> 
> Then my wife wanted a north facing bay window and as part of that we replaced some siding and soffits. The window had a metallic coating, the siding has foil covered insulation underneath, and of course the soffits replaced wood with aluminum.
> 
> Since then we have never been able to get all of the stations at once using any of the antennas. When I point to the direction shown on TV Fool, I get almost everything but CBS and WCIU. CBS works best with the antenna pointed straight east, WCIU is random. However, even when we angle in the right direction, sometimes we lose stations after a day or sometimes we even lose our signal when the computer starts recording. Regardless it always seems way too finicky, a night and day change since they did the work on the house.
> 
> If anyone has any advice, it would be appreciated. I just bought a second tuner so I could connect two separate antennas, but even then I have very low confidence. Maybe it would be okay if the computer was smart enough to choose between the two signals and select the best one, but as far as I am aware, that is not possible.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Bob



Well, the good news is, you can directly blame your wife for the antenna snafu and use that to your advantage for some future endevour in which you want to partake... (just kidding).


The best scenario that I can see is to move the antenna outside. That should readily solve your problem. You, I would think, be immediately back in business.


----------



## Dieter2

Has anyone tried the Avermedia HomeFree AVplus tuner? Looks

like an alternative to the HDhomerun Ethernet tuner, with the

addition of analog a/v inputs.


I haven't found any info on what RF front end or demodulator it uses.

Wondering if it would get better reception than the hdhomerun.


The other problem is how to talk to it from Unix.

http://www.avermedia-usa.com//AVerTV/Product/ProductDetail.aspx?Id=497


----------



## Steven Beatty

Hello All!


We are planning on cutting our Subscription to Dish and want to start using and Antenna to pull in stations to watch.


Here is my location and the stations I have available to me:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dcc49430c375608 


I am quite handy at building things and I would like to build an antenna to put in my large Attic (if that can work) or worst case put it on a mast on top of my house.


If I put an antenna in my Attic it would be about 25' up from the ground.


Two Main questions:
*1* - What type(s) of antennas do I need in order to pull in the most stations?
*2*- Do I need any signal boosters.
*extra Credit* - Point me to the best DIY Design for your recommended antenna.


I have read several articles and I see several references to Gray-Hoverman Antenna. I am not sure if this will fully meet my needs or not.

http://www.crdahl.com/antennas/sbgh.php 


Any and all input is welcome.


Thanks!


Steven


----------



## Calaveras

Steven,


An attic antenna might work but I wouldn't recommend it in your situation. Your 8 stations are in various directions so you're going to need a rotor. I can almost guarantee you that those 2 edge stations won't come in 100% of the time. The bigger and higher the antenna for those stations the better. Your antenna will need to clear all the local obstructions (trees and buildings) for the best chance at those 2 edge stations. You have two high VHF stations and the SGBH is not a VHF antenna although it might work on RF 9 because the signal is strong.


I'd recommend a Winegard HD7698P for a combo antenna or a 91XG and YA-1713 (or equivalent) for separate VHF/UHF antennas.


If this is primarily a DIY project for experimentation then build the SGBH with a reflector and one of my high VHF log periodic antennas.

http://www.aa6g.org/Lp/lp.html 


For a rotor I don't recommend the inexpensive TV antenna rotors. I'd go with the Yaesu G-450A for long life and accurate pointing.


Don't get carried away with a high gain preamp. The Winegard HDP269 is good enough and won't get overloaded by your couple of strong stations.


Chuck


----------



## Steven Beatty

Chuck - I appreciate the input to for my TV situation.


Later this month I will start to do some work and see how things work for me.


Steven B.


----------



## Dave Loudin

Steven, you need to go to the source on Gray-Hoverman designs at http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=121956 . The latest designs offer excellent performance for UHF *and* VHF-HI.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dave Loudin*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15120#post_22683357
> 
> 
> Steven, you need to go to the source on Gray-Hoverman designs at http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=121956 . The latest designs offer excellent performance for UHF *and* VHF-HI.



The source for the designs appears to be here:

http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/index.html 


And there's some instructions for actually building them here:

http://www.instructables.com/id/GH10n3-Gray-Hoverman-TV-Antenna/ 


I could not find the F/R for UHF but I did see the F/R for high VHF and it's not very good. It wouldn't be useable here because of my reflection issues.


Chuck


----------



## holl_ands

Grey-Hoverman Design websites:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna [Grey-Hoverman]
http://www.jedsoft.org/fun/antennas/dtv/gh.html [Grey-Hoverman]
http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/index.html [Optimized Grey-Hoverman & Stealthawk]
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=81982 [Grey-Hoverman]
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=121956 [Hi-VHF & UHF Grey-Hoverman]


Some DIY websites:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=95898 [300-ohm's DIY G-H thread]
https://sites.google.com/site/maycreates/ota-setup/my-sbgh [Mayhem Creation's DIY G-H]
http://www.diytvantennas.com [Chris Dahl's DIY G-H]
http://www.instructables.com/id/Gray-Hoverman-TV-Antenna-Final-Assembly/?ALLSTEPS [unclesam's DIY G-H]
http://www.casano.com/projects/hoverman/index.html [Wm F Dudley Jr's DIY G-H]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaYDtOqpTOI [Even kidz can do it.....]


----------



## ROW25

Hello all. I know nothing about antennas, and would like assistance or suggestions on which one might work best in my home. Here are my results from TV Fool: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dcc498a50830da6 


Edit: I guess I should mention that I tried the Mohu Leaf, and while it did pull in about 14 channels, I am wondering if there is something out there that is "better" (indoor). I'm sure I would get better results if I put it in a window, but it creates an eyesore so I am trying to avoid that.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ROW25*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15120#post_22694325
> 
> 
> Hello all. I know nothing about antennas, and would like assistance or suggestions on which one might work best in my home. Here are my results from TV Fool: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dcc498a50830da6
> 
> Edit: I guess I should mention that I tried the Mohu Leaf, and while it did pull in about 14 channels, I am wondering if there is something out there that is "better" (indoor). I'm sure I would get better results if I put it in a window, but it creates an eyesore so I am trying to avoid that.



You're in a location where no indoor antenna is likely to give you satisfactory results. There are no magic antennas. You need an outdoor antenna where you are that is designed to receive both high VHF and UHF. If you're interested in pursuing that we can help you, otherwise there isn't much we can do.


Chuck


----------



## ROW25




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15150#post_22696477
> 
> 
> You're in a location where no indoor antenna is likely to give you satisfactory results. There are no magic antennas. You need an outdoor antenna where you are that is designed to receive both high VHF and UHF. If you're interested in pursuing that we can help you, otherwise there isn't much we can do.
> 
> Chuck



Well, I relocated the antenna, and have gotten up to 33 channels. I'm satisfied with the channel selection (even when we only got 14), but on some we have to reposition the antenna ever so slightly. Will an amplified antenna (like the leaf plus or Radio Shack Amplified HDTV antenna) be better in any way?


----------



## bengance

I live in NE Atlanta (zip 30096) and get decent to very good reception using a Terk Indoor HDTV antenna in my attic. Its attached to a channelmaster pre-amp currently. My only significant problem is ABC, it doesn't come in at all. Directionally, ABC is in line with the other Atlanta stations, but it must be just outside the range of my current antenna.


After reading reviews, store ratings and forum posts, I'm considering a few antennas:


Channel Master CM 4228HD

Winegard HD7698P HDTV

Winegard HD7694P

RCA ANT751

Antennas Direct ClearStream4 HDTV Antenna


Any thoughts or recommendations?


~B



Sign Chan  (Chan) Name (mi) Path NM (db)

 WGTV-DT  8  -8.1 PBS 11.6  2Edge  48.1

 WGCL-DT  19  -46.1 CBS 16.7  2Edge  47.2

 WPCH-TV  20  -17.1 ____ 16.7  2Edge  46.3

 WXIA-DT  10  -11.1 NBC 19.0  2Edge  45.8

 WAGA-DT  27  -5.1 Fox 16.9  2Edge  45.6

 WATL-DT  25  -36.1 MyN 16.7  2Edge  43

 WUPA -- 43  43_ CW 16.7  2Edge  42.7

 WSB-DT  39  -2.1 ABC 19.7  2Edge  36.2


----------



## Dave Loudin

ROW25, an amplifier will not help you.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ROW25*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15150#post_22698267
> 
> 
> Well, I relocated the antenna, and have gotten up to 33 channels. I'm satisfied with the channel selection (even when we only got 14), but on some we have to reposition the antenna ever so slightly. Will an amplified antenna (like the leaf plus or Radio Shack Amplified HDTV antenna) be better in any way?



If you're okay with moving the antenna around for different stations then you may be fine. Most people aren't. You'll have to see how reception is over the long run. A lot of people in the North Bay report variable reception, especially when we get strong high pressures. Looks like we may be a week or so off from the next one of those.


Preamps are used primarily to overcome loss in long cable runs. You don't have a long cable run so a preamp won't make much if any difference.


You might want to consider visiting the San Francisco OTA thread to find more people local to you if you have other questions.


Chuck


----------



## holl_ands

DigiAir Pro and Pro 2 have been updated to Emitor DigiAirPro (with RED case) ATSC Meter:
http://sadoun.com/Sat/Products/S/DigiairPro-ATSC-OTA-digital-signal-meter.htm 
http://www.dtvgreendish.com/alignment-tools/digiair-pro-atsc-signal-meter.htm 


I couldn't find an on-line User's Manual for the NEW ATSC version, so here is old Manual that should be close:
https://www.perfect-10.tv/PDFs/EquipmentManuals/DIGIAIR%20Pro%2005.pdf 


BTW: Only a few CECBs have Signal LEVEL display in addition to Signal QUALITY, and only

the fol. have been CALIBRATED against a professional Meter:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/10320#post_16166929


----------



## beastyben1

I'm new to OVA. I put an RCA ANT751R in my attic, 100ft non-quad shielded cable that runs into an RCA Amp $15 Wal-mart version then into my HDHomerun broadcaster. Signal quality is so-so and I get only half the channels available reliably. On antennaweb.org there are signals from every direction so that makes it a little difficult. Plus to the east there is a house that is higher than my attic.


I have a 15foot massive antenna from the 80s on my roof. Has 300ohm flat cable I believe, I wasn't sure what it was so I bought the ANT751. Can I connect that big antenna leads to the terminals on the RCA antenna? Or should I, when the snow melts, run up another coaxial to the big antenna and somehow combine them before it hits the amp.


Thank you.


----------



## SFischer1


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *beastyben1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15150#post_22775477
> 
> 
> I'm new to OVA. I put an RCA ANT751R in my attic, 100ft non-quad shielded cable that runs into an RCA Amp $15 Wal-mart version then into my HDHomerun broadcaster. Signal quality is so-so and I get only half the channels available reliably. On antennaweb.org there are signals from every direction so that makes it a little difficult. Plus to the east there is a house that is higher than my attic.
> 
> I have a 15foot massive antenna from the 80s on my roof. Has 300ohm flat cable I believe, I wasn't sure what it was so I bought the ANT751. Can I connect that big antenna leads to the terminals on the RCA antenna? Or should I, when the snow melts, run up another coaxial to the big antenna and somehow combine them before it hits the amp.
> 
> Thank you.


Hi,

 

Well, to me, you need a bunch of understanding and lots of information passed on to us to help you.

 

1) Go to http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29  enter your location and provide a link to the results in a new post. Look at what others have provided, if you can't figure it out send me a PM and I will help you.   

 

Also I find http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90  to be useful, be sure and click on the "*Show lines pointing to each transmitter*" box. A link to that map is not available.

 

2) What stations are you interested in, just the major networks or do you want all that you can get. See this post to have the HDHR scan for all channels: http://www.avsforum.com/t/369015/san-francisco-ca-ota/9000#post_22721399

 

3) If you have a massive antenna on the roof from the 80s, my experience with the winter weather suggests a) it may not be in good shape. b) A massive antenna might be necessary. c) The 300ohm cable suggests a VHF only antenna, your need for high VHF reception is possible. (RF Channel 4 is low VHF)

 



 

*Your result for 1) should look line this:*

 

* http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dc84f808aed0eca * is for Lincoln, NE. I am not an expert in reading the TVFool and cannot tell if you need a rotor (Is there one on the roof antenna now?).

 

The answers to 2) really drive our understanding of your needs.

 

SHF


----------



## beastyben1

Hello,


Thank you for the help. It is very appreciated.


1. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dc84f3a3b85a40d 


2. I'm interested in getting all the channels I can get. I think there are duplicates coming in from Omaha though. I get most of the channels, just they go in and out too much. CW on Channel 15 is not available at all. I have my little ANT751 pointed to the West and a tiny bit South.
 
 


I'm not quite sure what a rotor is in this context, could you explain please? I could probably somehow attached my ANT751R to the big antenna when the snow is gone.


I'll take a picture of the antenna when I get home from work.


Thanks again,

Ben


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *beastyben1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15150#post_22776629
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Thank you for the help. It is very appreciated.
> 
> 1. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dc84f3a3b85a40d



Get rid of the amp! KFXL has a stunningly strong signal and is certainly overloading the amp. This is probably why you aren't receiving it.


I think you're going to be limited to the stations in green since even the yellows are 2 edge paths (2 hills to refract over) but they are mostly duplicate network stations. I don't recommend indoor or attic antennas if you have an outdoor option. I think you'll be able to split the difference in direction and point the antenna at about 15 degrees. Your ANT751R mounted in place of your old antenna should work for you. You won't need an antenna rotor for stations in vastly different directions.


If you really want to receive those stations in yellow then we need to discuss a more complex antenna setup. The stations in gray are not likely to be received with any antenna.


Chuck


----------



## beastyben1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15150#post_22777065
> 
> 
> Get rid of the amp! KFXL has a stunningly strong signal and is certainly overloading the amp. This is probably why you aren't receiving it.
> 
> I think you're going to be limited to the stations in green since even the yellows are 2 edge paths (2 hills to refract over) but they are mostly duplicate network stations. I don't recommend indoor or attic antennas if you have an outdoor option. I think you'll be able to split the difference in direction and point the antenna at about 15 degrees. Your ANT751R mounted in place of your old antenna should work for you. You won't need an antenna rotor for stations in vastly different directions.
> 
> If you really want to receive those stations in yellow then we need to discuss a more complex antenna setup. The stations in gray are not likely to be received with any antenna.
> 
> Chuck


Thanks Chuck. I'll unplug the amp and see what happens. Can I mount the ANT751R on the old antenna? I think it'd be easier for me to just lay the ANT751R on top of it and secure it, rather than removing the old antenna from the pole and putting the ANT on. I'm ok with only the green channels.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *beastyben1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15150#post_22778764
> 
> 
> Thanks Chuck. I'll unplug the amp and see what happens. Can I mount the ANT751R on the old antenna? I think it'd be easier for me to just lay the ANT751R on top of it and secure it, rather than removing the old antenna from the pole and putting the ANT on. I'm ok with only the green channels.



You can mount it on the same mast. A couple feet of separation at least is required but it would be best in the long run to remove the old antenna.


Chuck


----------



## njohnson23

Hello AVS forum antenna enthusiasts


I’m a bit out of my PC hardware/software technical element with this antenna stuff. We recently got a Roku among some other home entertainment upgrades are ready to ditch the cable. But first, would like to procure a good antenna. I would like to mount in garage to make easy access of the existing coaxial network. So, with that in mind the quality of the antenna and coaxial comes seems to into play.


Here are a few questions I thought of.
My house was built in 1999, is the coaxial good enough for both UHF and VHF digital? Will I improve results with an amplifier/booster on the coaxial network?


Based on my location from TV fool it says I’d be GTG with an in-house antenna for the channels I care about listed on the result at 113°. Considering my in garage mounting goal and channel requirements would any of these antennas listed below be good selections?


Is the DB8 going to give me better reception that the DB2E during inclement conditions?

Antennas Direct ClearStream4 HDTV Antenna

Antennas Direct DB2E Antenna

Antennas Direct DB4E Antenna

Antennas Direct DB8 Extreme Range Multi-Directional 'Bowtie' UHF DTV Antenna


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dc84f5f9601a768 


Would kindly accept any other references on antenna selection. Thanks in advance for any advice!


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *njohnson23*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15150#post_22784885
> 
> 
> Hello AVS forum antenna enthusiasts
> ...
> 
> Is the DB8 going to give me better reception that the DB2E during inclement conditions?
> ...
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dc84f5f9601a768
> 
> Would kindly accept any other references on antenna selection. Thanks in advance for any advice!


Hi,

 

Others can give you better information, but you have Fox on VHF RF 9 and NBC on VHF RF 11. The antennas you list are UHF only.

 

I think that the DB8 may well be overkill but my similar CM4228HD which also is a UHF antenna does quite well for me for VHF RF 7 and VHF RF 12. (YMMV)

 

You *are* intending to mount *on the garage roof*?









 

SHF


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *njohnson23*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15150#post_22784885
> 
> 
> Here are a few questions I thought of.



The stations you care about all have very strong signals. You don't need a preamp and using one might be detrimental. You should get an antenna with both UHF and VHF elements. I'd recommend one of the smaller antennas in the Winegard HD969xP line. I never recommend an indoor antenna if you have an outdoor option. DTV was designed to be received with outdoor antennas. Multipath becomes an issue with indoor antennas. TVFool recommendations for antenna location only consider signal strength and do not and cannot consider multipath issues. You pays your money and takes your chances with an inside antenna.


Your coax should be fine. Is it one piece from the antenna to the TV or are there splitters involved?


Bad weather does not degrade TV reception but a layer of snow on the roof above your antenna will.... another reason to forget the indoor antenna.


Chuck


----------



## SFischer1


Hi,

 

Two people in a row needing to put antennas on roofs. In January, I do not think so. Wait for Spring.

 

I checked the *Minneapolis* *weather expecting -25 F like when on Christmas 1968 my car would not start.*

 

*Climate warming sure has come true.*

 

*Lincoln, NE I only visited in the Summer but Creston, NE at Christmas time was almost as cold as my childhood home in Wisconsin (-10 F).*

　

 

People, plan now, put up antennas in the spring!

 

SHF


----------



## veedon




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15160_10#post_22786445
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> Two people in a row needing to put antennas on roofs. In January, I do not think so. Wait for Spring.
> 
> 
> 
> I checked the *Minneapolis* *weather expecting -25 F like when on Christmas 1968 my car would not start.*
> 
> 
> 
> *Climate warming sure has come true.*
> 
> 
> 
> *Lincoln, NE I only visited in the Summer but Creston, NE at Christmas time was almost as cold as my childhood home in Wisconsin (-10 F).*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People, plan now, put up antennas in the spring!
> 
> 
> 
> SHF


 

Good advice. But what about California. Does winter even exist in California?

 

But seriously, are there many professional antenna installers around anymore?

Or are people doing their own installations? You can bet that the pros won't be getting up on a Minneapolis rooftop in January!


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *veedon*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15150#post_22787416
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good advice. But what about California. Does winter even exist in California?
> 
> 
> 
> But seriously, are there many professional antenna installers around anymore?
> 
> Or are people doing their own installations? You can bet that the pros won't be getting up on a Minneapolis rooftop in January!


Hi,

 

Yes weather does exist in California, Winter rain starts ~ October 15 and ends ~ April 15. Usually no rain other than that period but in the year leading up to a three years of little rain it rained in each month.

 

There are at least two installers working in the San Jose area, I paid one ~ $700 for a new antenna system when my attic antennas were put into a faraday cage. ( 7 ATSC tuners in  my HTPC).

 

OTA is less than 15% used due to the multipath hell here in the San Francisco bay area. Xinfinity, AT&T, DISH flood my mailbox and stores know no nothing about OTA.

 

I receive 91 streams, one from ~ 97 miles.

 

 

SHF


----------



## njohnson23

Thanks everyone for there great feedback. I particularity like those thinking about my safety on an icy roof in MN in January.


I’d prefer to mount in the garage attic as I have limited impedance besides the roof and whatever snow may be on the roof 3-6 months of the year (more like 3 lately). Yet sounds like the preferred way to go is an exterior mount. Might have to try inside and see how that works. A safety conscious exterior mount isn’t out of the question for me this winter as my 10ft step ladder would easily reach an ideal spot both aesthetically and technically speaking to aim at 113° Again, thanks to those keeping safety in mind first!



Good call out on making sure my antenna supports both UFH and VHF as I’d like both. Any strong opinions on these more compact models? Looks like the lava 2805 has better range, but I’m well within 40 miles supported by the "higher reviewed" RCA ANT751R.


Good to hear my existing coaxial network should work. Yes, I have some splitters. Understand I’ll need to make sure they support 1000 MHz, is that correct? I have more reading on that yet.


New antennas under consideration:

RCA ANT751R Outdoor Antenna

LAVA HDTV Antenna with Remote Control HD-2805


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *njohnson23*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15150#post_22787645
> 
> 
> Thanks everyone for there great feedback. I particularity like those thinking about my safety on an icy roof in MN in January.



I forget much of the country can't do much antenna work in the winter. I'm in California too and I work on antennas any time of the year but I prefer winter as long as it's not too cold. Summer is too hot where I am.


> Quote:
> Yes, I have some splitters. Understand I’ll need to make sure they support 1000 MHz, is that correct? I have more reading on that yet.



Splitters attenuate the signal. If you have just one 2 way splitter you're probably okay. If you are cascading splitters you should consider a distribution amp.


> Quote:
> New antennas under consideration:
> 
> RCA ANT751R Outdoor Antenna



Will probably work for you since your signals are strong.


> Quote:
> LAVA HDTV Antenna with Remote Control HD-2805



It has an amplifier. That's not a good idea with your strong signals. An overloaded preamp can make reception worse.


Chuck


----------



## AntAltMike

Beastyben1 needs to buy a channel 14, 15 or 16 jointenna and install it as a channel block to knock down KXFL by about 20 dB,as it can overload a tuner even without amplification. While he might similarly benefit from a tuned Winegard UT-2700, they cost about $70 now and are sold untuned and are nearly impossible to tune without special equipment.


----------



## mgustus

JTBell


Thank you very much for this information. I am definitely in the shadow of Paris Mountain. Any suggested antenna?

Thank you for your time.


----------



## beastyben1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15150#post_22788797
> 
> 
> Beastyben1 needs to buy a channel 14, 15 or 16 jointenna and install it as a channel block to knock down KXFL by about 20 dB,as it can overload a tuner even without amplification. While he might similarly benefit from a tuned Winegard UT-2700, they cost about $70 now and are sold untuned and are nearly impossible to tune without special equipment.



Interesting. I said I didn't get channel 15, but its not what TVFool is saying Channel 15 is. I don't get KXVO CW and WOWT NBC. My antenna is pointing to the West, while these are coming out of the NorthEast towards that direction there are trees and I'm kind of in a low area.


But! I snapped some pictures of the antenna setup from the previous owner of the house. All I could find coming into the attic is that flat brown cable. Shouldn't I be able to use this? It's freakin massive. Snow is almost gone so I can get up in a few weeks hopefully.


----------



## Calaveras

It looks like Channel Master is closing out the JoinTenna. An alternative is the Tinlee semi-adjacent notch filter:

http://www.tinlee.com/MATV-Bandstops.php?active=3 


I have one I use for channel 18 here and it knocks it down by about 25 dB.


Chuck


----------



## AntAltMike

The manufacture of the UHF jointennas stopped about 20 years ago and the VHF jointennas probably a decade ago. What people have been buying since then is "new, old stock". The antenna business has lots of new, old stock. I think the last Videocipher module was manufactiured in 1992, but you can still buy new ones... as long as someone replaced the 10-year lithium battery.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *beastyben1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15150#post_22790232
> 
> 
> Interesting. I said I didn't get channel 15, but its not what TVFool is saying Channel 15 is.



You're confusing virtual channels with the real RF channel. What counts for the antenna is the real RF channel.



> Quote:
> I don't get KXVO CW and WOWT NBC.



Okay, so you do want to get one of the yellow channels.



> Quote:
> My antenna is pointing to the West, while these are coming out of the NorthEast towards that direction there are trees and I'm kind of in a low area.



In light of this, you will want to use that mast and get your antenna as high as possible.



> Quote:
> But! I snapped some pictures of the antenna setup from the previous owner of the house. All I could find coming into the attic is that flat brown cable. Shouldn't I be able to use this? It's freakin massive.



Three antennas pointed in 3 directions and only one cable? Unless they're combined correctly, you can't just connect 3 antennas together. They'll interfere with each other. It's not possible to tell from the picture what is going on. You should connect the 300 ohm downlead to your TV and see what happens. You'll need a 300:75 ohm transformer in reverse to try it.


The antenna on the top is a combo antenna; RF 2 thru 69. The next one down is a UHF only antenna. I don't recognize the lower one.


You have stations in many different directions which usually calls for an antenna rotor. It appears that the previous owner tried to get around that. I'm finding your situation a little confusing. Would you list the call signs of the stations you want to receive? That would make it easier to decide what sort of antenna you need.


Chuck


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *beastyben1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15150#post_22790232
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> But! I snapped some pictures of the antenna setup from the previous owner of the house. All I could find coming into the attic is that flat brown cable. Shouldn't I be able to use this? It's freakin massive. Snow is almost gone so I can get up in a few weeks hopefully.


Hi,

 

Something does not compute!

 

My memory of 300 ohm flat cable is from ~ 1960, the dressing of the cable in the lowest antenna picture looks much more like coax than than flat 300 ohm cable.

 

And to my eyes there are two round cables coming down from the top antennas at least as far as the lower antenna.

 

Go outside and try and determine where the cable from the massive antenna enters the attic.

 

You have not said if you or the previous owner had cable, fiber optic or coax.

 

What do you find where the TV set(s) may have been located.

 

I can accept that a cable installer upon seeing the massive antenna wanting to insure it never was used again and cut the cable(s) to it.

 

I cut the mickey mouse dual cable TV  flush with the wall when I left. (That cable is still in use as well as what was preinstalled in my new {~1974} house.) All my attic antenna cables were / are coax.

 

The antenna cable may also have been cut to stop any water getting inside the house.

 

That antenna system is just too good to have been connected (badly) with a single 300 ohm flat line.

 

SHF


----------



## beastyben1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15150#post_22790586
> 
> 
> I'm finding your situation a little confusing. Would you list the call signs of the stations you want to receive? That would make it easier to decide what sort of antenna you need.
> 
> Chuck


I apologize for the confusion. Thank you for helping me out.


Channels I want to receive and corresponding perception of reception:

WOWTDT – very poor reception

KETV – very poor reception

KLKN – perfect reception

KOLNDT – perfect reception

KOLNDT2 – perfect reception

KUONDT, KUONDT2, KUONDT3 – perfect reception

KXVODT – no signal

KFXLDT – perfect reception



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15150#post_22791225
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> 
> Something does not compute!
> 
> 
> I can accept that a cable installer upon seeing the massive antenna wanting to insure it never was used again and cut the cable(s) to it.
> 
> SHF


Winner winner, chicken dinner. While doing the duct-work for a bathroom vent this past weekend, all I found coming into the attic was the old brown flat lead. Snow is still on the roof, so using the zoom on my camera, I found the lead is cut on its way down the antenna! To address an earlier question, I think the previous owner who remodeled the house put in all the coax outlets in all the rooms in 2009. The prior owner to him was an old lady who likely didn't have coax setup. Time Warner Cable did do some cable work to add additional coax outlets in 2009.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *beastyben1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15150#post_22791963
> 
> 
> 
> Winner winner, chicken dinner. While doing the duct-work for a bathroom vent this past weekend, all I found coming into the attic was the old brown flat lead.



Step 1 - Put a connector on that cut coax, add a length of cable to get to your TV and see if you receive what you want. If not, come back.


Looks like all those antennas are no longer made Channel Master antennas.


Chuck


----------



## beastyben1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15150#post_22792479
> 
> 
> Step 1 - Put a connector on that cut coax, add a length of cable to get to your TV and see if you receive what you want. If not, come back.
> 
> Looks like all those antennas are no longer made Channel Master antennas.
> 
> Chuck



Will do. Thanks again for the help.


-Ben


----------



## beastyben1

Well, snow is gone, and about 20F. Had to try that huge antenna. I didn't even have to put a connector on that cut coax, just unscrewed it a little higher and connected the cable that was going to my ANT751R. Pulled the coax up through a gable vent so no drilling nada. Excellent signal strength and I get ALL the channels it can find perfectly!!!!


This is so awesome. Thanks everyone for the help!


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *beastyben1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15180#post_22820820
> 
> 
> Well, snow is gone, and about 20F. Had to try that huge antenna. I didn't even have to put a connector on that cut coax, just unscrewed it a little higher and connected the cable that was going to my ANT751R. Pulled the coax up through a gable vent so no drilling nada. Excellent signal strength and I get ALL the channels it can find perfectly!!!!
> 
> 
> This is so awesome. Thanks everyone for the help!


Hi,

 

Great!

 

I do have a concern about Lightning.

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/13920#post_20740768

 

SHF


----------



## 300ohm




> Quote:
> Looks like all those antennas are no longer made Channel Master antennas.



The top one looks like a Channel Master.


The middle uhf one is definitely a Radio Shack U-100. Page 95 of the 1986 RS catalog here:
http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/catalogs/1986/ 


The bottom one looks like it could be made by AntennaCraft (who also makes Radio Shack antennas).

It is a weird antenna, with what looks like 1 director, a folded dipole and 2 reflectors. Judging by its size, it looks to be resonating above channel 13 vhf and well below channel 14 uhf, so maybe some kind of a special communications type antenna.



> Quote:
> I do have a concern about Lightning.



Yep, same here, the coax needs to go thru a grounding block. If the mast goes into the ground deep enough, I think it could be used as the ground rod, at least temporarily (better than no grounding block at all) If not, a separate ground rod is needed. Also with the newer grounding code, the antenna coax ground must be connected to the house electrical wiring ground. Fortunately, lightning strikes in Nebraska in January are minimal, heh.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *300ohm*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15180#post_22870508
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> The bottom one looks like it could be made by AntennaCraft (who also makes Radio Shack antennas).
> 
> It is a weird antenna, with what looks like 1 director, a folded dipole and 2 reflectors. Judging by its size, it looks to be resonating above channel 13 vhf and well below channel 14 uhf, so maybe some kind of a special communications type antenna.
> 
> ...


Hi,

 

Well to due to my bad memory, I concluded that it was an FM Radio antenna.

 

Like the 15-1636 on the same page.









 

SHF


----------



## el gran chico

Antennas Direct unveiled the DB8e today.

http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/DB8e-Long-Range-Outdoor-Antenna.html


----------



## tylerSC

That could possibly end up being the best 8-bay UHF antenna available now. Will be interesting to see how it compares to the CM4228HD. But both the DB2e and DB4e are good antennas with improved performance over the original versions.


----------



## holl_ands

Technical Data Sheet for DB8E says the Gain numbers do NOT include Loss due to use of an External RF Combiner.

Loss could be about 0.5 to 1.5+ dB due to internal losses plus phase/amplitude mismatch loss. It would help if A-D

would disclose the OVERALL Gain response. They also didn't say if there was any Gain in Hi-VHF Band.


Also not specified is the (probably very significant) Loss in Combiner Gain due to phase/amplitude mismatch

as the left and right side antennas are rotated for wider, broadside response. This might be 3.5 dB...or more.


Compare to CM4228 and CM422HD with and without RF Combiner Mod, incl. Hi-VHF Band performance:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl/cm4228hd 
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl/cm4228hdmod 


Not that much difference...except DB8E is much better on the lowest UHF channels.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Look closer at note #1 on page 1 " Pattern computed using array theory...". Also, compare the peak forward shown on page 2 (panels aligned and in phase) vs. the plot on page 8 (panels 180° opposite). We'd expect to see around a 6 dB reduction in resultant signal gain based on loss of phasing plus combiner loss. Looks to be in the ball park from what I can see.


Phase mismatch is the problem that can't calculated or predicted and is what I see as likely to be the problem.


As for VHF, maybe they learned their lesson about claiming to receive VHF with UHF antennas from past experience.


----------



## See The Light

I had an issue with some interference with a ROKU 2 XS that I installed last month, and my coax cable from the TV to the antenna in the attic.


The problem was easily remedied by replacing the 12' standard coax with a 12' RG6 Quadshield coax cable that I got at Fry's for $5.00 (Model BS-50).


I'm sorry I ever bought the RCA brand regular coax cable. The tip end of it broke off.


----------



## motorider

hello all,


I am trying to get my local channels over the air. I have purchased a antenna craft c290 from radio shack. I have it mounted on the roof pointed to 323 degrees magnetic and just below the roof's peak. It is mounted about 8-10 feet from my electrical service cable. The wire is rg-6 and it hits a 4 way grounding splitter on outside of house. from there it goes into the house to 2 TV's. the total wire run to each tv is about 60'


as of now the only channel that I can get is channel 10. I didn't think I would need an amp, but maybe im wrong.


attached is the link to my tvfool lookup.


thanks for your help.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1ddab53fc4e8aa


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *motorider*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15180#post_22886910
> 
> 
> hello all,
> 
> 
> I am trying to get my local channels over the air. I have purchased a antenna craft c290 from radio shack. I have it mounted on the roof pointed to 323 degrees magnetic and just below the roof's peak. It is mounted about 8-10 feet from my electrical service cable. The wire is rg-6 and it hits a 4 way grounding splitter on outside of house. from there it goes into the house to 2 TV's. the total wire run to each tv is about 60'
> 
> 
> as of now the only channel that I can get is channel 10. I didn't think I would need an amp, but maybe im wrong.
> 
> 
> attached is the link to my tvfool lookup.
> 
> 
> thanks for your help.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1ddab53fc4e8aa


Are you using old cable company inside wiring?


----------



## motorider

im using brand new dtv rg-6. the antenna seems to work better lower. I tried raising it up on the mast to about 5' over the peak of the roof and I lost all reception. I have lowered it back down and have reception, however 3 channels will not hold a signal. The wire is ran across the roof and down the side of the house to a 75 ohm grounding splitter, brand new. then it is fed on to the bedroom and main room.


from what I read on tvfool I should have no problems getting reception.I should note that the tv in the room right behind this one is working fine. the bedroom tv and the main room tv are back to back and are ran on a double cable that dtv used.


main tv - sony sxrd 50" (7 years old)

bedroom - Samsung 32" lcd (5 years old)


I have spent hours today trying to adjust this stupid thing and am about to give up.


I have even tried an amplifier, however I lost all signal when I installed it. it was a 37 dollar unit from radio shack. had a 12v dc injector and the amp that installed upstream. it killed all signal.


another thing is that the Samsung tv shows an average of 5-7 bars reception out of 8 or 9 maybe? no such meter on my sony.


thanks for the help


----------



## mikepier




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *motorider*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15180#post_22886910
> 
> 
> hello all,
> 
> 
> I am trying to get my local channels over the air. I have purchased a antenna craft c290 from radio shack. I have it mounted on the roof pointed to 323 degrees magnetic and just below the roof's peak. It is mounted about 8-10 feet from my electrical service cable. The wire is rg-6 and it hits a 4 way grounding splitter on outside of house. from there it goes into the house to 2 TV's. the total wire run to each tv is about 60'
> 
> 
> as of now the only channel that I can get is channel 10. I didn't think I would need an amp, but maybe im wrong.
> 
> 
> attached is the link to my tvfool lookup.
> 
> 
> thanks for your help.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1ddab53fc4e8aa



You should not need an amp.

Also make sure your antenna is pointed correctly. In the pic below, the right side is the front and should be pointing NW towards the towers.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3808570 


Also is the 4 way splitter you are using rated to at least 900Mhz? Some of the older ones only go up to 500Mhz which blocks UHF signals. Try eliminating the splitter and just go to 1 tv and see what you get.

Since you have only 2 tv's, you should get a 2-way splitter. A 4 way has more loss than a 2 way.


----------



## motorider

thanks for the help, however I looked at the instructions for the antenna and realized I had it installed 180 degrees the wrong way (backwards...I know I know...******...haha lol). now everything seems to be working well.


thanks again. should I take the 2 way splitter back to radio shack and use the 4 way that is already mounted on my house? plus put 10 bucks back in my pocket? its good to like several gigahertz.


----------



## mikepier

If you are getting all the channels fine, just leave the 4 way in. 10 bucks sounds a lot for a 2 way splitter anyways.


I figured you were only getting Ch 10 and not the rest for either 1 of 2 reasons ( or both)


a) the antenna was pointing backwards, but the VHF part of the antenna can get signals from the backside.


b) the splitters only are rated up to 500 Mhz.


----------



## beastyben1

Hello again. Delete...


----------



## mgustus




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mgustus*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15150#post_22790199
> 
> 
> JTBell
> 
> 
> Thank you very much for this information. I am definitely in the shadow of Paris Mountain. Any suggested antenna?
> 
> Thank you for your time.



Bump ...any recommendations on brand/model I should look at?


----------



## drjill

Hi everyone! I ditched directv and need an antenna for local channels. I still have the HD dish and arm available on the roof. Can some kind soul help me choose the right antenna? More interested in roof style I suppose. Thanks!

Jill

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1ddab7f3e366e5


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *drjill*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15180#post_22914500
> 
> 
> Hi everyone! I ditched directv and need an antenna for local channels. I still have the HD dish and arm available on the roof. Can some kind soul help me choose the right antenna? More interested in roof style I suppose. Thanks!
> 
> Jill
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1ddab7f3e366e5



That is one of the prettiest TV Fool reports I have seen. Just about anything you will want is in one general direction. An Antennas Direct DB8, which will not be hard to find, should do really well.. Others may have a different notion on this. Collect what opinion you can.


----------



## Mister B

I tend to follow the Dallas thread as I live in Texas. Members there have had a lot of trouble with ABC on real channel 8. Channel 2 is just infomercials, but frequency 9 is Mundofox if the OP watches Spanish TV. I would not risk trying a UHF only antenna but would recommend something like the Winegard HD- 7694P or the step up to the 7695 if several sets are to be connected without the aid of any amplifihttp:// www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=hd7694p&d=winegard-hd-7694p-high-definition-vhf/uhf-hdhd769-series-tv-antenna-(hd7694p)cation .


----------



## Calaveras

+1 on the Winegard recommendation. If you have high VHF stations it's always best to have an antenna that covers high VHF and not make due with a UHF antenna and hope it works.


Chuck


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15180#post_22917673
> 
> 
> +1 on the Winegard recommendation. If you have high VHF stations it's always best to have an antenna that covers high VHF and not make due with a UHF antenna and hope it works.
> 
> 
> Chuck



I agree in principle. My reckoning is based on bowties being a bit better at general directions, as opposed to specific aiming. And, I am using a 4 bay and receiving a High VHF station from over 40 miles away. All the UHF-High VHF antennas I know of are sort of directional. All I can relate to is my experience, which may not be applicable to this situation. I hope we have more discussion on this.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15180#post_22917673
> 
> 
> +1 on the Winegard recommendation. If you have high VHF stations it's always best to have an antenna that covers high VHF and not make due with a UHF antenna and hope it works.
> 
> 
> Chuck


I agree as well. Any VHF reception with a UHF antenna is purely incidental,so it is impossible to predict. If VHF stations are in the mix, a proper antenna is the best route to ensure the best chance of reliable reception.


----------



## drjill

I appreciate the input you all have given. Think the Winegard HD7698P is overkill?

Jill


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *drjill*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15180#post_22919628
> 
> 
> I appreciate the input you all have given. Think the Winegard HD7698P is overkill?
> 
> Jill



Not overkill. A good solution if it can be fixed in one position to receive all you want. If not, a rotor would be needed.It would be good to ask around to see what others are doing near you, if others are trying Over the Air.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *drjill*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15180#post_22919628
> 
> 
> I appreciate the input you all have given. Think the Winegard HD7698P is overkill?
> 
> Jill


Either the 7694 or HBU-33 will get the job done for a lot less money.


----------



## Josea

 *Warning: Spoiler!* (Click to show) 
] Presently I have the Sony in my signature connected to an attic antenna (40+ year old) and am very happly with the reception.The coax goes to the back of the TV. I want to add an HD Homerun and ASUS computer to the "mix" and just want to know what is the best adapter / pre amp/ to use in my situation for minimal signal loss. I am not looking for the cheapest solution. I still want to view OTA (only) with the TV, but at times I want to use the latop for OTA viewing when others are watching the Sony. thanks for any input

(Note i do not have a rotor for the antenna and get ~30 Digital stations .. no analog)


What does RG6 mean?


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Unless you actually loose stations when adding the splitter and extra cable runs, you don't need any amplifiers.


----------



## Josea

Thanks for the response ProjectSHO89 so is this correct? I need to purchase http://www.amazon.com/RCA-DH24SPR-Two-Bi-Di-Splitter/dp/B0018BQR84/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1360525927&sr=8-1&keywords=coax+splitter then i will be able to plug in the TV as well as the HD Homerun and run both simulataneously?


----------



## wsf0817

Hi All,


I'm looking in to cutting the cord and was looking for some information on selecting antennas. I live in downtown Atlanta so I assume that my reception should be relatively favorable. I ran the tvfool analysis and here are the results

 


If possible, I'd like to just work with an indoor antenna (just to avoid having to dig in to the walls again) however it wouldn't be the end of the world to do something outside (on the same floor) or up higher.


Indoors this would be on the second floor of my house.


Any other info that I can provide to help?


Thanks in advance!


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Josea*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15180#post_22947459
> 
> 
> Thanks for the response ProjectSHO89 so is this correct? I need to purchase http://www.amazon.com/RCA-DH24SPR-Two-Bi-Di-Splitter/dp/B0018BQR84/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1360525927&sr=8-1&keywords=coax+splitter then i will be able to plug in the TV as well as the HD Homerun and run both simulataneously?



Yep,that will work as will almost any other two-way cable or TV splitter, even a $4 one from Walmart.


----------



## wsf0817




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wsf0817*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15180#post_22947802
> 
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> 
> I'm looking in to cutting the cord and was looking for some information on selecting antennas. I live in downtown Atlanta so I assume that my reception should be relatively favorable. I ran the tvfool analysis and here are the results
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If possible, I'd like to just work with an indoor antenna (just to avoid having to dig in to the walls again) however it wouldn't be the end of the world to do something outside (on the same floor) or up higher.
> 
> 
> Indoors this would be on the second floor of my house.
> 
> 
> Any other info that I can provide to help?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance!



Just realized I could probably mount something outside near one of my bedrooms and just send it back through the existing co-ax, no? In that case it may be easier to do external than I thought.


----------



## OTAhead

With NM numbers like you have, a $5 pair of rabbit ears should suffice...


----------



## wsf0817

:lol:


That is what I was hoping. Any suggestions on the *best* $5 set of rabbit ears? Is there a generally well accepted strong performing antenna for situations like this?


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wsf0817*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15210#post_22948856
> 
> 
> :lol:
> 
> 
> That is what I was hoping. Any suggestions on the *best* $5 set of rabbit ears? Is there a generally well accepted strong performing antenna for situations like this?



The *best* $5 set of rabbit ears aren't rabbit ears. It's the single classic bowtie. You have to get it from Ebay since Radio Shack and others have stopped selling it. It's listed as uhf bow-tie replacement antenna. It gets vhf high also when those signals are listed in green by TvFool. With channels from several different directions, you'll be lucky to find a single location/aim for any antenna. Consider using more than one antenna with an a-b switch if a single antenna doesn't get the job done. Good Luck.


----------



## wsf0817

Is there not a more unidirectional design? Guess I'll just have to try it. Looks like most are at 18deg, minus ABS @ 359.


----------



## OTAhead




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15210#post_22949034
> 
> 
> The *best* $5 set of rabbit ears aren't rabbit ears. It's the single classic bowtie. You have to get it from Ebay since Radio Shack and others have stopped selling it. It's listed as uhf bow-tie replacement antenna. It gets vhf high also when those signals are listed in green by TvFool. With channels from several different directions, you'll be lucky to find a single location/aim for any antenna. Consider using more than one antenna with an a-b switch if a single antenna doesn't get the job done. Good Luck.



With AT LEAST two Hi VHF channels, I feel you will need the longer elements that come with traditional rabbit ears as well. A set with a UHF loop incorporated in it should ssrve you well...


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wsf0817*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15210#post_22949040
> 
> 
> Is there not a more unidirectional design? Guess I'll just have to try it. Looks like most are at 18deg, minus ABS @ 359.



NBC and PBS are also at a different location. Indoor reception is like a box of chocolates. The classic bowtie is a good uhf antenna. I've used it for rf 9 and rf 10 with signals like you have for rf 8. I'd locate the antenna specifically for rf 8. Don't assume you have the correct location/height/aim for the antenna based on uhf reception. Vhf signals are harmed by electrical noise. You could be at 100% signal for a uhf channel and have nothing on a vhf one. Don't allow the twin-lead wire of the bowtie to touch metal as that can cause problems with reception.


A Silver Sensor is more directional, but far inferior for receiving vhf.


----------



## wsf0817

OK, so I'm guessing its going to be a bit of trial and error in my own house. Thats fine.


Any merit to the flat style that claim to be omni-directional?


Do I want to stay away from a amplified antenna? From some of the reading I've seen on here it seems like with strong signal, that may cause issues?


I'd like to stay away from switching antennas so that I can use this source as an input for a WMC DVR.


Thanks for the help


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wsf0817*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15210#post_22949847
> 
> 
> OK, so I'm guessing its going to be a bit of trial and error in my own house. Thats fine.
> 
> 
> Any merit to the flat style that claim to be omni-directional?



You should try the recommended simple rabbit ears and see what happens. If there are problems then you can address those.


> Quote:
> Do I want to stay away from a amplified antenna? From some of the reading I've seen on here it seems like with strong signal, that may cause issues?



Under no circumstances should you buy an amplified antenna. Your signals are off the charts strong! If it turns out you cannot receive one or more of the stations, it would not be because of signal strength, it would be because of multipath which commonly occurs with indoor antennas irrespective of signal strength.


If it turns out that you cannot receive the top 10 stations in your list or if you have to reposition the antenna for different stations, you may need an outdoor antenna pointed at them but with an attenuator (30dB) in the line. Those signals are so strong that it is likely they'll overload the tuner.


> Quote:
> I'd like to stay away from switching antennas so that I can use this source as an input for a WMC DVR.



I wouldn't count on any omnidirectional antenna working very well. If you want to receive all those stations from different directions you'll most likely need multiple antennas or an antenna on a rotor.


Chuck


----------



## milhouse247

Can someone help me out. I recently moved into a new house and connected my Terk antenna to my TV in the lower level of the house (not basement, street level) but I am only pulling in ABC, NBC, and some of the other weirder stations (no Fox, CBS, and PBS is very touchy). Any suggestions?


TV Fool report:
Radar-All.png 72k .png file


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *milhouse247*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15210#post_22951189
> 
> 
> Can someone help me out. I recently moved into a new house and connected my Terk antenna to my TV in the lower level of the house (not basement, street level) but I am only pulling in ABC, NBC, and some of the other weirder stations (no Fox, CBS, and PBS is very touchy). Any suggestions?



A roof mounted VHF/UHF antenna with an unobstructed view in the direction of the transmitters should do it.


Chuck


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *wsf0817*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15210#post_22949847
> 
> 
> OK, so I'm guessing its going to be a bit of trial and error in my own house. Thats fine.
> 
> 
> Any merit to the flat style that claim to be omni-directional?
> 
> 
> Do I want to stay away from a amplified antenna? From some of the reading I've seen on here it seems like with strong signal, that may cause issues?
> 
> 
> I'd like to stay away from switching antennas so that I can use this source as an input for a WMC DVR.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the help



Of the flat style, I have the Leaf and the HD-Blade/Flatwave antennas. These are bi-directional like the classic bowtie. Omni-directional is fictional thinking. These antennas also work best when aimed properly. These are also good indoor antennas, but I can't see paying the extra price if you don't need to.


----------



## milhouse247




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15210#post_22952048
> 
> 
> A roof mounted VHF/UHF antenna with an unobstructed view in the direction of the transmitters should do it.
> 
> 
> Chuck



Thanks, anything less severe that could be used to solve my issue? I would prefer not to run wires from my lower level through the upperlevel, attic, and roof if at all possible.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *milhouse247*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15210#post_22954002
> 
> 
> Thanks, anything less severe that could be used to solve my issue? I would prefer not to run wires from my lower level through the upperlevel, attic, and roof if at all possible.



A roof mounted antenna is pretty much the next step up over what you have which is not working.


Chuck


----------



## tylerSC

I have a 91XG antenna with the older style balun that uses a matching transformer. I believe the newer versions have more of a circuit board balun if I am not mistaken. Will it enhance reception capabilities a bit to upgrade to the newer version? And is there a minimal charge for a new balun box? I have not seen it listed and I don't need to purchase a new antenna, just perhaps replace the balun/folded dipole.


----------



## SolidSignal

I'm not sure that it will make any difference but I will see if I can find out for sure from our Antennas Direct rep.


----------



## Digital Rules

tylerSC, are you referring to the balun with the coax connection underneath vs the rear?


----------



## ADTech

Just contact us either by phone or via our Contact Us form if you need warranty parts.


There's no difference in performance that you'd ever be able to measure between the two versions of the matching device.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15210#post_22959686
> 
> 
> I have a 91XG antenna with the older style balun that uses a matching transformer. I believe the newer versions have more of a circuit board balun if I am not mistaken. Will it enhance reception capabilities a bit to upgrade to the newer version? And is there a minimal charge for a new balun box? I have not seen it listed and I don't need to purchase a new antenna, just perhaps replace the balun/folded dipole.



I had four 91XGs, two with the ferrite balun and two with the PCB balun. I measured the loss through each by putting the baluns back-to-back and dividing by 2. The ferrite balun had about about 0.5 dB more loss on channel 51 and the PCB balun had about 0.5 dB more loss on channel 14.


In my quest to squeeze every last dB out of my antenna setup, I replaced the baluns with coaxial baluns in both my 91XGs.


ADTech is right though that it's unlikely you'll be able to tell any difference between baluns.


Chuck


----------



## tylerSC

Looks like I have the ferrite balun and I would like to swap it out for the PCB version.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15210#post_22960016
> 
> 
> tylerSC, are you referring to the balun with the coax connection underneath vs the rear?


I believe mine has the coax connection at the rear rather than underneath.


----------



## tylerSC

Thanks to Antennas Direct for their outstanding customer service in promptly assisting with my replacement part. Same with Solid Signal recently. Usually it just takes getting past the phone screener and the sales techs are quite helpful.


----------



## tylerSC

Here is an update on Channel Master preamps and my unsubstantiated opinion of what I have learned recently. Interestingly, the new version CM-7777 preamp appears sold out and backorderd everywhere, with no confirmed date of delivery. And apparently, contrary to some reports, it is indeed a very good amp but has not been marketed very well. Many were disappointed that the dual input version was phased out, so the new model has not gotten good publicity. But clinical research has indicated that the alleged 2.0 noise figure of the original version was somewhat overstated, and that the new version actually has a better noise figure. But the 30db gain may be too powerful for most applications, so the new 7778 with 16db gain may actually be the better choice. And it is still currently available. So, to summarize, the new versions are not bad amps, just very good but different designs that may require different applications. But there is still disappointment that a dual input version is no longer available.


----------



## mikepier

If your TV is by a North facing window, you should be fine with just an indoor antenna from radio Shack like this one:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103077 


The fact that your on the second floor helps.


----------



## retiredengineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *milhouse247*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15210#post_22951189
> 
> 
> Can someone help me out. I recently moved into a new house and connected my Terk antenna to my TV in the lower level of the house (not basement, street level) but I am only pulling in ABC, NBC, and some of the other weirder stations (no Fox, CBS, and PBS is very touchy). Any suggestions?



I get good results with the TERK HDTVi. I get all the high power stations despite being at 30 miles and stuck with one edge reception. Aim it east and avoid energy efficient windows. A wall that doesn't have a wire mesh embedded inside will work.


----------



## tylerSC

Those flat style Terk antennas do not usually perform as well as the HDTVi/HDTVa versions.


----------



## tylerSC

Channel Master specs now state that the new CM-7777 preamp has a noise figure of 2.8, which is probably about the same, if not lower, than the original version. Because the old version actually ranged from 2.75 to to 3.5, rather than the 2.0 as previously stated. So finally better marketing than "should be lower than 5.0."


----------



## Bigchingan

  


I'm on the fifteenth floor of a building, and my living room (with tv) sits next to floor to ceiling sliding glass doors, facing north to north east and looking directly at Washington DC (about five miles away). Could someone suggest a decent antenna for ota digital hd channels?


Edit:I would prefer to use only indoor antennas.


----------



## Calaveras

Looks to me that you have about the best situation anyone wanting to use an indoor antenna could have. I'll let one of the indoor antenna experts recommend a model but you don't need and should not use an amplified one and place it as close to the doors as possible.


----------



## Bigchingan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15210#post_22984165
> 
> 
> Looks to me that you have about the best situation anyone wanting to use an indoor antenna could have. I'll let one of the indoor antenna experts recommend a model but you don't need and should not use an amplified one and place it as close to the doors as possible.


.


Is there any detriment to using an amplified antenna? My thought process was that if I could receive a bunch without one, I might receive a few extra with it, but if it would actually create interference or issues on certain channels, I'll certainly avoid it.


----------



## tylerSC

Too much amp can overload the tuner and wipe out reception. And Terk HDTVi is a good indoor antenna, and you should not need HDTVa amped version.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bigchingan*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15240#post_22984234
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> Is there any detriment to using an amplified antenna? My thought process was that if I could receive a bunch without one, I might receive a few extra with it, but if it would actually create interference or issues on certain channels, I'll certainly avoid it.



That's not how it works. The purpose of the amplifier is primary to overcome loss in long cable runs. You won't have a long cable. Your signals are very strong and an amplifier in your situation may overload the TV tuner and result in worse reception.


Reception is all about signal-to-noise and not preamp gain. Gain is mostly marketing aimed at unsuspecting consumers. In most cases more is not better.


----------



## Bigchingan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15240#post_22985232
> 
> 
> That's not how it works. The purpose of the amplifier is primary to overcome loss in long cable runs. You won't have a long cable. Your signals are very strong and an amplifier in your situation may overload the TV tuner and result in worse reception.
> 
> 
> Reception is all about signal-to-noise and not preamp gain. Gain is mostly marketing aimed at unsuspecting consumers. In most cases more is not better.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15240#post_22985202
> 
> 
> Too much amp can overload the tuner and wipe out reception. And Terk HDTVi is a good indoor antenna, and you should not need HDTVa amped version.



Excellent information, thank you both.


One additional question: Is it worthless to even try the omnidirectional flat style antennas? I could integrate one of those into the surrounding furniture a little bit better.. I was thinking about something like this that could be stuck to the glass of one of my windows: Mohu Leaf Paper-Thin


----------



## tylerSC

Mohu gets good reviews, but realize it is optimized for UHF and not VHF. But if your signals are strong, it may work for VHF at your location. You could aways try.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Bigchingan*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15240#post_22985262
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent information, thank you both.
> 
> 
> One additional question: Is it worthless to even try the omnidirectional flat style antennas? I could integrate one of those into the surrounding furniture a little bit better.. I was thinking about something like this that could be stuck to the glass of one of my windows: Mohu Leaf Paper-Thin



Provided the antenna can be placed in a location where electrical noise doesn't drown VHF signals, the Leaf will probably work for rf 7 and 9. You also have signals on rf 11 and 13 that you can try for. If you want a slightly larger flat antenna for slightly better VHF performance, perhaps, you could try the HD-Blade or Flatwave antennas. As always with indoor reception, there are no guarantees. You should count on needing to aim whichever antenna you choose in order to optimize performance on individual channels. Good Luck.


----------



## Bigchingan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15240#post_22987038
> 
> 
> Provided the antenna can be placed in a location where electrical noise doesn't drown VHF signals, the Leaf will probably work for rf 7 and 9. You also have signals on rf 11 and 13 that you can try for. If you want a slightly larger flat antenna for slightly better VHF performance, perhaps, you could try the HD-Blade or Flatwave antennas. As always with indoor reception, there are no guarantees. You should count on needing to aim whichever antenna you choose in order to optimize performance on individual channels. Good Luck.


Interestingly enough, I plugged into my buildings coaxial and an picking up all of the local and educational broadcast channels. I ordered a terk and mohu and will compare them to whatever I'm getting in my building coax (which was my cable source before I cancelled)


----------



## IslandStylin

1Saleaday.com has the Winegard FlatWave HDTV Indoor Digital Flat Antenna for $18 with free shipping. I live about 15 miles away from the main antenna in Los Angeles. Any idea if this one will work well for me? Or am I better to just go with some rabbit ears?


Unfortunately, I do not have a clear view. There are buildings around me and a large tree blocking most of our view...Perhaps I have to throw a line onto the roof. Would I even get reception with the tree there if I used the Winegard?


----------



## bjs59

I am looking to cut the DirecTv cord and go with a combination of OTA and streamming... I have done a little reserch and have a idea of what I want but want to run it by some of the people here and see how far off base I am...


First off here is my TV Fool link 


I am interested in receiving the UHF stations from 3 to 9 degree magnetic heading as well as the UHF stations from the 214 degree magnetic heading... The only VHF station I would like to receive is 13 but hoping maybe it would still come in with my antenna choice without having to have a VHF antenna...


For an antenna I was leaning towards AntennaDirect's XG91 with a Channel Master CM-7777 pre-amp and a Channel Master CM-3414 distribution amp to feed 3 existing 3 TVs in the house and a posible WMC box in the future for recording and streamming...


I am aware of the closer tower at 104 degree magnetic...That tower is owned by the county and rebroadcasts only the major (ie. ABC, CBS, NBC, & PBS) primary channels from the 214 degree stations... If I wanted to use that tower I figure I can pick it up off the back side of the antenna during extemely bad weather so as to not overload either of the amplifers or TVs...


The coax runs would be approx. 75 foot from the antenna to the distribution point and then another 20 to 50 foot to the TVs. I am also surrounded by woodlands with mainly pine trees approx 40 to 60 foot tall in both directions of the signals I'm interested in receiving...


Now for the questions...


I have seen that the CM-7777 has been redesigned and supposedly not as good as the two input model... Any suggestions as to another pre-amp that preforms as well as the old two input style CM-7777??? It doesn't have to have two inputs but not opposed to it either....


Also, do you think the XG91 would pick up channel 13 even though it is a UHF only antenna??? I have read various post where people have had luck with this but not sure with the distance I am looking at....


Any other suggestions you might have to help in my situtation...


Thanks in advanced!!!


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bjs59*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15240#post_23021621
> 
> 
> I am looking to cut the DirecTv cord and go with a combination of OTA and streamming... I have done a little reserch and have a idea of what I want but want to run it by some of the people here and see how far off base I am...



I don't have any good news for you. There's essentially no chance you'll be able to receive those UHF stations at 86 miles through a forest of pine trees. I have experience with that situation and it doesn't work very well and this is when the distance is less and it's not a 2 edge path. The 91XG is a very good antenna but it will not receive any VHF stations. A separate VHF antenna is a must. OTOH, you have two very strong UHF stations so you need to be careful with a preamp as it could overload the TV tuner. A Winegard HDP269 would be a better choice. You don't need a lot of gain with only 75 feet of coax.


Having said all that, if you can't get your antennas above the trees I doubt you'll be able to receive the stations you want and UHF reception at 86 miles over a 2 edge path is problematic even in the best situation. You'd also need a rotor for those vastly different directions.


Chuck


----------



## ProjectSHO89

I'll be more blunt.


Your "plan" is a pipe dream...


Sorry.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bjs59*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15240#post_23021621
> 
> 
> I am looking to cut the DirecTv cord and go with a combination of OTA and streamming... I have done a little reserch and have a idea of what I want but want to run it by some of the people here and see how far off base I am...
> 
> 
> First off here is my TV Fool link
> 
> 
> I think you might best make a hobby of antennas for a while, forgetting about cutting the cord for now .
> 
> A small expenditure on a two bay bowtie and a mast and some experimenting will give you a clue as to what might be done.
> 
> Those coastal pines are a problem, but signals will duct through them at odd spots.
> 
> Raising and lowering the antenna might allow you to find some signal.
> 
> You might find something useful, you night not
> 
> Look in the afternoon, to avoid catching a deceptive atmospheric bounce signal.
> 
> Good luck. .


----------



## Josea




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15180#post_22947811
> 
> 
> Yep,that will work as will almost any other two-way cable or TV splitter, even a $4 one from Walmart.


When I hook up the HD "Homerun dual" the instructions say RG6 cable is needed. So I measured and will need 2 cables between 5 and 6 foot length (one from OTA antenna splitter to TV, one from Splitter to the Dual). Can anyone see a flaw here, and can anyone recommend a specific brand of cable?

Also If anyone has the dual..HDHR3-US , does it come with only the power supply? Thanks in advance


----------



## billd

Hi,


I cut the cord a long time ago and I'm now looking to add an indoor antenna to my setup.


I live in Manhattan (NYC) and have a 4th floor apartment with clear views looking south and east. A couple questions before I make the plunge.


1) I believe my apartment has close proximity to lots of antennas. I'm curious if the locations of the antennas (North or West, where I don't have a direct LOS) will be something to think about?

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1dda4f37a3be0b 


2) Am I a candidate for an indoor antenna like the Leaf?


3) Could I theoretically mount / hide this antenna on the wall behind the TV? The wall faces west (external wall) and there's a West and South facing window approx 2 ft away from the preferred mounting position.


WAF is critical, and mounting an antenna on the window is absolutely not going to be possible.


Any add'l things I should know?


Thank you!


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> When I hook up the HD "Homerun dual" the instructions say RG6 cable is needed. So I measured and will need 2 cables between 5 and 6 foot length (one from OTA antenna splitter to TV, one from Splitter to the Dual). Can anyone see a flaw here, and can anyone recommend a specific brand of cable?



Don't make it harder than it needs to be.


RG6 coax and common splitters are commodity items. You can buy them literally anywhere there's a electronics or electrical department (Lowes, Home Depot, Radio Shack, Best Buy, Walmart, Sears, K-mart, Target, etc, etc...) Two rules: 1) Don't overspend and 2) Don't buy the cheapest carp on the shelf.


For short cable runs of less that 10', you can often get by with RG59.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *billd*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15240#post_23034918
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> 
> I cut the cord a long time ago and I'm now looking to add an indoor antenna to my setup.
> 
> 
> I live in Manhattan (NYC) and have a 4th floor apartment with clear views looking south and east. A couple questions before I make the plunge.
> 
> 
> 1) I believe my apartment has close proximity to lots of antennas. I'm curious if the locations of the antennas (North or West, where I don't have a direct LOS) will be something to think about?
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1dda4f37a3be0b
> 
> 
> 2) Am I a candidate for an indoor antenna like the Leaf?
> 
> 
> 3) Could I theoretically mount / hide this antenna on the wall behind the TV? The wall faces west (external wall) and there's a West and South facing window approx 2 ft away from the preferred mounting position.
> 
> 
> WAF is critical, and mounting an antenna on the window is absolutely not going to be possible.
> 
> 
> Any add'l things I should know?
> 
> 
> Thank you!



Since you'e so close to the transmitters the signals are extremely strong so that's not an issue. You could probably receive stations with a paperclip so just about any antenna will work as long as there are not multipath issues. Just be sure to get one that says it'll cover VHF (for channel 7). Do not buy one with an amplifier. Unless you use rabbit ears, none of the modern indoor antennas that I've seen cover low VHF, channels 2 - 6, which you have a couple.


Chuck


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *billd*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15240#post_23034918
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> 
> I cut the cord a long time ago and I'm now looking to add an indoor antenna to my setup.
> 
> 
> I live in Manhattan (NYC) and have a 4th floor apartment with clear views looking south and east. A couple questions before I make the plunge.
> 
> 
> 1) I believe my apartment has close proximity to lots of antennas. I'm curious if the locations of the antennas (North or West, where I don't have a direct LOS) will be something to think about?
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1dda4f37a3be0b
> 
> 
> 2) Am I a candidate for an indoor antenna like the Leaf?
> 
> 
> 3) Could I theoretically mount / hide this antenna on the wall behind the TV? The wall faces west (external wall) and there's a West and South facing window approx 2 ft away from the preferred mounting position.
> 
> 
> WAF is critical, and mounting an antenna on the window is absolutely not going to be possible.
> 
> 
> Any add'l things I should know?
> 
> 
> Thank you!




If rabbit ears are not desired, you can probably get what you need by using a 6 foot or so length of coaxial cable which you can no doubt get at a dollar store. Cut the connector off one end, then strip off the outer foil and braid about 15 inches from that end. Leave the insulation on the inner conductor.. Screw the remaining connector into the TV's antenna input. Duct tape the cable at middle of its length to the back of the TV . Scan channels and see what you have. Move the free end of the cable if needed to find the "right" position. Secure with duct tape. You might well be alright with this. If not, you haven't hurt yourself trying..


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *billd*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15240#post_23034918
> 
> 
> I cut the cord a long time ago and I'm now looking to add an indoor antenna to my setup.


What have you been using to watch tv between then and now?


> Quote:
> Am I a candidate for an indoor antenna like the Leaf?


Yes
http://www.amazon.com/Mohu-Leaf-Paper-Thin-Indoor-Antenna/dp/B004QK7HI8 


> Quote:
> Could I theoretically mount / hide this antenna on the wall behind the TV? The wall faces west (external wall) and there's a West and South facing window approx 2 ft away from the preferred mounting position.


Yes


> Quote:
> WAF is critical, and mounting an antenna on the window is absolutely not going to be possible.


Would your wife like a picture frame antenna?
http://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direct-PF7-Picture-Antenna/dp/B000N8NDX0 
http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/PF7_antenna.html 


> Quote:
> Any add'l things I should know?


You will need to try different locations for the best results. It might be necessary to add an extension coax with an F81 coupler.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *billd*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15240#post_23034918
> 
> 
> 
> WAF is critical, and mounting an antenna on the window is absolutely not going to be possible.



[Rant]


I don't understand the thinking here. To me you need the minimum antenna that will reliably receive all the stations you want so you can watch TV. What happens when the antenna that meets the WAF doesn't receive the stations you want? Do you give up TV? Is that acceptable to anyone?


It doesn't make any sense that the WAF is based on aesthetics when the issue is performance. There are no magic antennas. You either install what is required to do the job or pay for cable.


Most people who cut the cord do so because they don't want to pay outrageous cable rates. If you want free TV then don't complain about the antenna needed to do the job.


[/Rant]


Chuck


----------



## kenglish

Those little blade antennas (when they work for you) are pretty inconspicuous. Unless you're talking about a very small window, you ought to be able to put it in a corner, without much trouble.

Might even work on a wall next to the window, or up near the ceiling.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15240#post_23043565
> 
> 
> [Rant]
> 
> 
> I don't understand the thinking here. To me you need the minimum antenna that will reliably receive all the stations you want so you can watch TV. What happens when the antenna that meets the WAF doesn't receive the stations you want? Do you give up TV? Is that acceptable to anyone?
> 
> 
> It doesn't make any sense that the WAF is based on aesthetics when the issue is performance. There are no magic antennas. You either install what is required to do the job or pay for cable.
> 
> 
> Most people who cut the cord do so because they don't want to pay outrageous cable rates. If you want free TV then don't complain about the antenna needed to do the job.
> 
> 
> [/Rant]
> 
> 
> Chuck


When cable/sat service came along, and now internet streaming, people considered antennas unnecessary and unsightly. Or antiquated relics of the past. Of course I strongly disagree with this line of thinking. If you choose to receive OTA radio/TV reception, then the concern should indeed be performance over aesthetics.


----------



## OTAhead

I love my big ol' honkin' antenna. IIRC, it's over 13' 6" long. I have local stations of course, but I can also get a high VHF station (RF 7) from over 63.3 miles away, only around 17' high. It allows me to watch THIS TV. It gets the job done...


----------



## Larry Kenney

The mailman asked me yesterday what all the antennas on my roof were for. When I told him they were for TV reception he said, "Why do you need all of those when you can see Sutro Tower up there?" I explained that I was able to get stations for lot of other locations, like San Jose, Santa Rosa, Sacramento and Stockton. He thought that was interesting, but he said his wife wouldn't allow something like that on his roof.










If any of you are interested in seeing all of those antennas on my roof, take a look here: http://www.larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html 


Larry

San Francisco


----------



## tylerSC

Very nice set up there Larry. Do you use a preamp with any of those antennas or just a dist amp? And have you tried the new version 4228? I prefer their original versions before they subcontracted Chinese made imitations. I still use their 4248 UHF Diamond antenna which is a very good performer, but it is no longer available. I guess 91XG is the best choice now for that type of antenna.


----------



## billd




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15240#post_23043565
> 
> 
> [Rant]
> 
> 
> I don't understand the thinking here. To me you need the minimum antenna that will reliably receive all the stations you want so you can watch TV. What happens when the antenna that meets the WAF doesn't receive the stations you want? Do you give up TV? Is that acceptable to anyone?
> 
> 
> It doesn't make any sense that the WAF is based on aesthetics when the issue is performance. There are no magic antennas. You either install what is required to do the job or pay for cable.
> 
> 
> Most people who cut the cord do so because they don't want to pay outrageous cable rates. If you want free TV then don't complain about the antenna needed to do the job.
> 
> 
> [/Rant]
> 
> 
> Chuck



We have a few reasons.


First, neither of us watch much video. My wife simply doesn't watch TV. Period. I like to watch sports and I binge view Netflix shows.


Second, if we are consuming video, that video is delivered over the Internet via Netflix, Amazon Instant Video, or Aereo, which is an app / site that streams live TV in NYC.


Third, I work on the finance side of the Internet industry, and as such I am focused on creating a seamless, wireless system across multiple screens including my TV, iPad, and smartphones. Video is a part of that, but so is gaming, music, photos, etc. I'm working with people who are trying to disrupt the traditional TV ecosystem with gaming consoles, new video services, and over the top hardware, so I need to be using this type of setup at home (for testing, and plus I just plain enjoy it).


The reason I want the antenna is because it would give me more access to video, including live sporting events. As long as it doesn't look unsightly, why not? But given I already have access to live TV through Aereo, and given we rarely watch TV, I would never, ever get something that had to be installed on a window.


Hope that clears things up.


----------



## Ken.F




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *billd*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15240#post_23060552
> 
> 
> The reason I want the antenna is because it would give me more access to video, including live sporting events. As long as it doesn't look unsightly, why not? But given I already have access to live TV through Aereo, and given we rarely watch TV, I would never, ever get something that had to be installed on a window.


You could try making one of these . To increase the WAF you can let her pick out the photos and decorate it. She might even want to spend some arts and crafts quality time helping build it.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *billd*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15240#post_23060552
> 
> 
> We have a few reasons.
> 
> 
> First, neither of us watch much video. My wife simply doesn't watch TV. Period. I like to watch sports and I binge view Netflix shows.
> 
> 
> Second, if we are consuming video, that video is delivered over the Internet via Netflix, Amazon Instant Video, or Aereo, which is an app / site that streams live TV in NYC.
> 
> 
> Third, I work on the finance side of the Internet industry, and as such I am focused on creating a seamless, wireless system across multiple screens including my TV, iPad, and smartphones. Video is a part of that, but so is gaming, music, photos, etc. I'm working with people who are trying to disrupt the traditional TV ecosystem with gaming consoles, new video services, and over the top hardware, so I need to be using this type of setup at home (for testing, and plus I just plain enjoy it).
> 
> 
> The reason I want the antenna is because it would give me more access to video, including live sporting events. As long as it doesn't look unsightly, why not? But given I already have access to live TV through Aereo, and given we rarely watch TV, I would never, ever get something that had to be installed on a window.
> 
> 
> Hope that clears things up.



Okay. Normally when people say they "cut the cord" they mean they dropped cable TV in favor of OTA. But in your case you dropped cable TV in favor of internet video. That's why we didn't understand how you could have cut the cord but not have had OTA long ago.










Maybe that's what everyone will be doing someday. Currently that's not possible where I am as internet speeds are not fast enough.


You may be the first person in this thread looking for OTA as a supplement to internet video as opposed to a replacement for cable/satellite TV. I'll keep this in mind for the future.


Chuck


----------



## stgdz

Anyone know if a hoverman can operate down to 1200-1300mhz? Would like to try it for some of my radio control stuff but yagi's seem to rule the roost for that long range and I'm thinking outside of the box.



My guess would be no it doesn't work.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stgdz*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15240#post_23063768
> 
> 
> Anyone know if a hoverman can operate down to 1200-1300mhz? Would like to try it for some of my radio control stuff but yagi's seem to rule the roost for that long range and I'm thinking outside of the box.
> 
> 
> 
> My guess would be no it doesn't work.



You'd have to re-scale it for the higher frequency range if you want it to actually work well.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stgdz*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15240#post_23063768
> 
> 
> Anyone know if a hoverman can operate down to 1200-1300mhz? Would like to try it for some of my radio control stuff but yagi's seem to rule the roost for that long range and I'm thinking outside of the box.
> 
> 
> 
> My guess would be no it doesn't work.




You'd have to scale the antenna to get it to work in that frequency range.


I'm not an RC guy but I am a ham. My understanding is that 1200 MHz is limited to FPV only on 1280 MHz and you need a ham license to use it. Why would you want to put such a large antenna on an RC device?


Chuck


----------



## holl_ands

Be advised that R/C Transmissions have a LEGAL MAXIMUM ERP (Effective Radiated Power).

If you add a higher Gain antenna, you are likely breaking the law and may be interfering with

not only other R/C users but the increased level of out-of-band noise could also interfere with

users in nearby frequency bands as well as on harmonic frequencies.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15240#post_23057798
> 
> 
> Very nice set up there Larry. Do you use a preamp with any of those antennas or just a dist amp? And have you tried the new version 4228? I prefer their original versions before they subcontracted Chinese made imitations. I still use their 4248 UHF Diamond antenna which is a very good performer, but it is no longer available. I guess 91XG is the best choice now for that type of antenna.


Thanks for the compliment, Tyler.


I've tried several pre-amps here, but none of them can handle the signals I get from Sutro Tower, just 3/4 of a mile away. TVFool shows the Noise Margin from the 11 stations up there to be from 89 to 78 dB. I have about 70 feet of coax on the antennas, so a preamp would probably help for the distant stations, but no such luck. The distribution amp gives me a +1 dB gain over the input from the antennas, but I could use a few dB more!


I haven't tried the new version of the 4228. From what I've heard it's not as good as these originals that I'm using.


Larry

SF


----------



## Satcom15

Ahhhh. Nothing more beautiful than the sight of an aluminum forest. Nice Larry. My Grandmother lived in the Mission District back in the 60s and 70s. I lived in Silicon Valley, so know SF Bay Area well.


----------



## Josea

Diplexer vrs splitter, I am hooking up an HD homerun Dual and Sony 720 TV to the same OTA antenna, I was told not to get a splitter, use a diplexer. Can anyone recommend a specific brand/etailer for the diplexer? (Note for the splitter Silicondust's documentation recommends 5-1000 MZ only)


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> Is there any detriment to using an amplified antenna?



Yes, absolutely, if in a strong signal area. Think of wearing a hearing aid to a rock concert... If you don't need one, then it's only going to harm the experience.



> Quote:
> My thought process was that if I could receive a bunch without one, I might receive a few extra with it,



Maybe, but you'd still have to prevent with the above issue. If there are signals just below the tuner's reception threshold, then an amp can help lift hem up out of the background enough so they're usable, but you still have to avoid amplifying strong signals that would overload or distort. If you happen to be in an area where there are no really strong signals, then the amp may well give you better performance out of the system.


----------



## jaygroundw

I recently installed an Antenna Direct DB8 outdoors and am having some difficulty with pixalation on channels 5.1 and 11.1. Moving the antenna around to test now but wonder based on the TV fool link below, should I have a different antenna and if so, which on please and thanks. I am surprised because I am so close to the stations?


Jay
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1ddad8e9ceba05


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jaygroundw*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15270#post_23071387
> 
> 
> I recently installed an Antenna Direct DB8 outdoors and am having some difficulty with pixalation on channels 5.1 and 11.1. Moving the antenna around to test now but wonder based on the TV fool link below, should I have a different antenna and if so, which on please and thanks. I am surprised because I am so close to the stations?
> 
> 
> Jay
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1ddad8e9ceba05



My guess would be that the picture break-up is caused by signal bouncing off things, like moving traffic.

Are you close to a major road?

Proximity to the transmitters could hurt more than help if you are dealing with multipath.

I'd like to know the surrounding conditions more before suggesting you have too much antenna.


----------



## rabbit73

Your signals are extremely strong. The first two listed have the dBm pwr in red which indicates possibility of overload. Try an attenuator in series with the antenna coax coming to the tuner to see if that helps. If it does, leave it in and/or try an RCA ANT751 which is a small antenna for strong signal areas.


Your coax should be grounded with a grounding block in such a strong signal area. It also should be grounded to comply with NEC safety requirements.


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stgdz*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15240#post_23063768
> 
> 
> Anyone know if a hoverman can operate down to 1200-1300mhz? Would like to try it for some of my radio control stuff but yagi's seem to rule the roost for that long range and I'm thinking outside of the box.
> 
> 
> 
> My guess would be no it doesn't work.


The hoverman can be scaled to any frequency you want. The size is inversly proportional to frequency and directly proportional to wavelength. A hoverman for your frequency range would be about half the size of a hoverman for UHF TV. What advantage do you think the hoverman would give you over the yagi?


Nothing wrong with thinking outside the box; that's how new inventions are created!


----------



## jaygroundw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15270#post_23071963
> 
> 
> My guess would be that the picture break-up is caused by signal bouncing off things, like moving traffic.
> 
> Are you close to a major road?
> 
> Proximity to the transmitters could hurt more than help if you are dealing with multipath.
> 
> I'd like to know the surrounding conditions more before suggesting you have too much antenna.



It's funny - I originally thought my close proximity was a plus but agree that being 4 miles or so away seems to make the alignment most critical. I have mounted the antenna outdoors, on the roof, about 22 feet up. It is facing many mature trees most of which don't have leaves right now (other than a few pines which are still green). No roads other than local. I moved the antenna a bit last night and improved the signal on 5.1 and 11.1 but degraded 17.1 and a few others. Gonna try again tonight and take some notes.


Appreciate your help!


Jay


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Josea*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15270#post_23070860
> 
> 
> Diplexer vrs splitter, I am hooking up an HD homerun Dual and Sony 720 TV to the same OTA antenna, I was told not to get a splitter, use a diplexer. Can anyone recommend a specific brand/etailer for the diplexer? (Note for the splitter Silicondust's documentation recommends 5-1000 MZ only)



You want a splitter. A splitter simply divides the signal 2 ways, 4 ways, etc. with corresponding loss. A diplexer divides/combines frequency bands such as VHF and UHF with little loss. A diplexer would be used to combine separate VHF and UHF antennas onto one coax. A splitter is used to divide the signal to go to 2 or more TVs.


Chuck


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jaygroundw*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15270#post_23075202
> 
> 
> It's funny - I originally thought my close proximity was a plus but agree that being 4 miles or so away seems to make the alignment most critical. I have mounted the antenna outdoors, on the roof, about 22 feet up. It is facing many mature trees most of which don't have leaves right now (other than a few pines which are still green). No roads other than local. I moved the antenna a bit last night and improved the signal on 5.1 and 11.1 but degraded 17.1 and a few others. Gonna try again tonight and take some notes.
> 
> 
> Appreciate your help!
> 
> 
> Jay



Nobody noted that 11.1 is on RF 10 which is VHF and you are using a UHF antenna. It's true your signals are very strong and some people get away with using the wrong antenna in this situation but others don't. I'd recommend one of the smaller antennas in the Winegard HD769xP series that is designed for VHF and UHF. I'm betting your channel 11 problem will go away with the correct antenna.


In regards to multipath, reflections can affect any strength signals. I'm 54 miles from the transmitters and have major issues with multipath. Pixelation simply means the signal-to-noise of your station is close to the minimum. It doesn't necessarily mean your signals are weak. Certainly they're not in your case.


I assume you are not using a preamp or distribution amp? You don't need one and it would be detrimental with such strong signals. Adding a 20 dB attenuator might be an interesting test.


Do you actually have line of sight to the transmitters from your antenna? Trees can be a problem but with no leaves they should not be. How many pine trees are there? Moving trees can cause problems. I set up an antenna once that looked through a line of eucalyptus trees which were the only things blocking LOS. One station was severely affected with its signal strength jumping all over the place. Other stations were less affected. This was only about 15 miles from the transmitters.


If your antenna is sensitive to position then you have some sort of multipath issue going on which is hard to troubleshoot over a forum.


Chuck


----------



## gcd0865

Jay:


Calaveras is right about channel 11.1, which is on RF10. You're using a UHF-only antenna (albeit a very good one), which won't resonate well at VHF-high frequencies. Cheapest/quickest solution is to add a Y5-7-13 VHF-high antenna a foot or two below your DB8 on the same mast, and join it with your DB8 using two short (3-4-foot) RG-6 coax pieces fed into a UVSJ up at the mast, with a single RG-6 coax fed down from there to your tv. Also, as Calaveras said, if you're using any kind of distribution amp to split your signal to multiple tv's, take it out and replace it with a simple splitter, since you're too close to your transmitters for any amplification.

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=y5-7-13 
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=uvsj 


With at least one VHF-high station in your area, the DB8 wasn't really the right choice for you, even though it's a very good UHF antenna. It's way more powerful than you need at such close range, and UHF-only. Presuming that it can't be returned since it's been outside, if you wanted to sell it to someone who needs a longer-range UHF antenna, you could switch to the RCA ANT751 or Winegard HD1080, both of which cover both UHF and VHF-high, in a smaller size.

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=ANT751 
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=HD-1080


----------



## retiredengineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15270#post_23075587
> 
> 
> I assume you are not using a preamp or distribution amp? You don't need one and it would be detrimental with such strong signals. Adding a 20 dB attenuator might be an interesting test.
> 
> 
> Chuck



Agree with Calaveras. Your signals are very strong and they may be overloading the RF amplifier in your TV. The amplifier may work well with the sum of the average power but occasionally you will get a peak power that the amplifier overloads on. An attenuator or a less sensitive antenna may be the solution.


----------



## Richardw322

OK I am ready to put up an outdoor antenna. I am in Philadelphia, PA. Tired of the dropouts from the indoor one. I went to TV Fool and here is the link:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1dda5004eeb500 


If I can get the top 12 channels I will be very happy. As to the inside situation, I would want to drive 2 HTPC's each with a dual tuner card, and 2 FM receivers. Can any kind soul suggest an antenna (and any other equipment I would need) for my situation? I don't really see needing an amp, but I do want to split the signal a bit.


Thanks in advance


----------



## ProjectSHO89

A small, all channel antenna should work fine. Aim it at Roxborough. You could probably cheat and use a small U/Hi-V antenna like the C2V and get away with it since WPVI uses enough power that a half or third-size dipole should still work well enough.


----------



## gcd0865

At 8 miles distance, something relatively small should work just fine. With WPVI being on channel 6, you'd want an antenna capable of VHF-low reception, in addition to VHF-high and UHF. One inexpensive possibility might be the Antennacraft AC9:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=AC9 
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11113388 


Try first with no amp, just using a regular splitter to feed your various tuners.


----------



## holl_ands

*FYI DIY'ers:*


In response to a query re a better Ch12 Yagi Antenna, I conducted a series of 4nec2

analysis runs after using nikiml's Python Optimization Scripts, see discussion thread:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=161018 


Complete 4nec2 Analyses found here:

*Ch12 12-Element Folded Dipole Yagi (two Boom Lengths):*
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/ch1212elfdyagiopt 

*Ch13 12-Element Folded Dipole Yagi:*
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/ch1312elfdyagiopt 

*Hi-VHF (Ch7-13) 12-Element Folded Dipole Yagi*
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/hivhf12elfdyagiopt 


Hi-VHF 12-El FD-Yagi (Boom Length=107-in) provides significantly higher Raw Gain,

F/B & F/R Ratio performance and lower SWR than either the Winegard YA-1713

(10-El, Boom Length=99-in) or Antennacraft Y-10-7-13 (10-El, Boom Length=117-in):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/logyagi 



Even more Yagis found here:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis 



FYI: Link to nikiml's webpage for Python Script download & other info:
http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/scripts.html


----------



## Richardw322

Would it be overkill to go with the Aantennacraft 5884 Colorking? I would rather overbuild a bit than have to go up and replace it. 12 bucks more for insurance. I just worry it would kill input amps.


----------



## gregzoll

gcd0865, actually the DB8 will cover VHF-Hi (7-13), and UHF, which it was designed for.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jaygroundw*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15270#post_23071387
> 
> 
> I recently installed an Antenna Direct DB8 outdoors and am having some difficulty with pixalation on channels 5.1 and 11.1. Moving the antenna around to test now but wonder based on the TV fool link below, should I have a different antenna and if so, which on please and thanks. I am surprised because I am so close to the stations?
> 
> 
> Jay
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1ddad8e9ceba05


I almost think you could get away with the basic unamped rabbit ears and loop from Radioshack at your location, with such strong signals. Or perhaps step up to a Terk HDTVi. Also consider multipath as a problem. And 11 Alive is one of the stronger HiVHF channels on RF10, so you should not have a problem with receiving the signal. And the techs at Dow Electronics off Boggs Rd recommend the similar Channel Master 4228HD antenna for the Atlanta area. Although optimized for UHF, it does receive HiVHF including WXIA-11 and PBS Channel 8 based upon their reports.


----------



## gcd0865

Richardw322:


The Antennacraft 5884 should also work fine in your area. Being 8 miles from many full-power transmitters, you will not likely be able to use any kind of amplifier up at the antenna mast, although you might be able to use a distribution amplifier at some location inside your house (away from the antenna) if signal strength to your multiple tuners ends up weak due to splitting.


----------



## gcd0865

Gregzoll:


I was always under the impression that, among the various 4-bay and 8-bay type UHF antennas, only the 8-bay versions with continuous-width reflector screens (such as the old CM4228A and the newer CM4228HD) would receive VHF-high channels 7-13 decently, because the continuous screen width (of maybe 35"-40") was wide enough to resonate on VHF-high frequencies. All reports I saw seemed to indicate that since the DB8's reflector screen was separated, and not continuous, in its width, VHF-high performance would be poor on the DB8. Of course, at locations very close to the transmitters, even antennas that don't resonate well on certain frequencies will provide adequate reception, simply by virtue of strong signals.


As an example, see this comparison: http://www.antennahacks.com/Comparisons/N-Bay_VHF_Shootout.htm 


If this information doesn't properly reflect real-world reception, though, I'd certainly stand corrected.


----------



## Richardw322

Thanks, I'll give the 5884 a shot.


----------



## gregzoll

Our Channel 13 transmitter for Channel 49.x is about 8 miles away, but even with just the amp, and the DB8 aimed that direction of the tower, you could get 74% for reception. It actually works great for VHF-hi, but you have to have a rotor to be able to tune in towers from other directions. I use a combo of a VHF-Hi for just the one channel (13), and the DB8 for everything else. Have a Channel Master CM-7779 Pre-amp.


I can tell you this, just like in the past, Not all antennas were created equal, and all they have done with today's models, is just tweaked them a little, but overall, they are really the same units as have been used for the past 60 years.


----------



## Calaveras

This business about using the wrong antenna for the job is just a matter of how bad the antenna performance is on the frequency it's not designed for and how strong is the signal to be received. If the combination is good enough the station can be received assuming noise and/or multipath is not also an issue. I receive an LP station on RF channel 3 using an FM antenna but it works best off pointed 45 degrees. The pattern at 57 MHz is all messed up.


I know someone who was able to receive all his local stations (VHF and UHF) at 40 miles distance with a dipole antenna made out of aluminum foil stuck on the back of his TV. But those sorts of people never come to a forum like this because they aren't having problems. We only get the people who are having problems or people who are starting from scratch with no antenna. I don't feel it's responsible to tell people who come here to try an antenna that's not designed for the channel(s) they want to receive just because the proper one is a little larger or more expensive than they had in mind. Better they get something that works even if it's a little larger than required than something that doesn't work.


Chuck


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15270#post_23102812
> 
> 
> This business about using the wrong antenna for the job is just a matter of how bad the antenna performance is on the frequency it's not designed for and how strong is the signal to be received. If the combination is good enough the station can be received assuming noise and/or multipath is not also an issue. I receive an LP station on RF channel 3 using an FM antenna but it works best off pointed 45 degrees. The pattern at 57 MHz is all messed up.
> 
> 
> I know someone who was able to receive all his local stations (VHF and UHF) at 40 miles distance with a dipole antenna made out of aluminum foil stuck on the back of his TV. But those sorts of people never come to a forum like this because they aren't having problems. We only get the people who are having problems or people who are starting from scratch with no antenna. I don't feel it's responsible to tell people who come here to try an antenna that's not designed for the channel(s) they want to receive just because the proper one is a little larger or more expensive than they had in mind. Better they get something that works even if it's a little larger than required than something that doesn't work.
> 
> 
> Chuck



You are no doubt essentially correct, Chuck.. But there is a risk in recommending anything when you can't get your own hands on things.

A Log Periodic or Yagi generally gives good gain and is usually quite directional. They have to be aimed well. Stacked bowties aren't as directional.

I favor the bowties, and have since analog times. 30 years ago I used a 6 bowrie array that worked as good as anything else I had tried. It was useless for weak Low Band VHF, but I didn't have any of those to worry with. I think I developed a prejudice.

I'm using a 4 bay now, and I do not think I can expect better results from another design. I have no transmitters closer than 32 miles from me, and the available stations are in several directions. To receive the one High Band VHF station I have any prayer of getting, I have to do an approximate point at it. But I think that is something that would be required with any antenna. It is almost 45 ,miles away.. But, I do not have to reposition the antenna to receive the UHF stations, some of which are 50 miles distant.

I like the convenience of not having to reposition the antenna frequently.

Despite that, I'm sure a large Log Periodic type antenna would be best for a lot of people. That is, if the person using it were willing to accept using a rotor that may or may not be as good a the ones made 25 years ago, and, willing to accept the need to use it often.or have multiple, dedicated antennas.


----------



## Ennui




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15270#post_23105129
> 
> 
> You are no doubt essentially correct, Chuck.. But there is a risk in recommending anything when you can't get your own hands on things.
> 
> A Log Periodic or Yagi generally gives good gain and is usually quite directional. They have to be aimed well. Stacked bowties aren't as directional.
> 
> I favor the bowties, and have since analog times. 30 years ago I used a 6 bowrie array that worked as good as anything else I had tried. It was useless for weak Low Band VHF, but I didn't have any of those to worry with. I think I developed a prejudice.
> 
> I'm using a 4 bay now, and I do not think I can expect better results from another design. I have no transmitters closer than 32 miles from me, and the available stations are in several directions. To receive the one High Band VHF station I have any prayer of getting, I have to do an approximate point at it. But I think that is something that would be required with any antenna. It is almost 45 ,miles away.. But, I do not have to reposition the antenna to receive the UHF stations, some of which are 50 miles distant.
> 
> I like the convenience of not having to reposition the antenna frequently.
> 
> Despite that, I'm sure a large Log Periodic type antenna would be best for a lot of people. That is, if the person using it were willing to accept using a rotor that may or may not be as good a the ones made 25 years ago, and, willing to accept the need to use it often.or have multiple, dedicated antennas.



Just a comment on your "A Log Periodic or Yagi generally gives good gain and is usually quite directional." The directional characteristic results from higher gain; that is how the gain is acheived.


----------



## holl_ands

Higher Gain can be achieved by reducing Beamwidth in EITHER or BOTH Horizontal and Vertical dimensions.

Stacking Bowties increases Gain by reducing Elevation Beamwidth, leaving a fairly broad Azimuthal Beamwidth,

as evidenced by the Vertically Stacked 8-Bay (without Reflector)...but when you add the VM8's Double-Angled

Reflector, it adds additional Gain by narrowing the Azimuthal Beamwidth, so Beamwidth is about same as 91XG:
http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweather.com/Computer%20models/Computer%20models%20M8.html


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Ennui*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15270#post_23113740
> 
> 
> Just a comment on your "A Log Periodic or Yagi generally gives good gain and is usually quite directional." The directional characteristic results from higher gain; that is how the gain is acheived.



I think maybe you mean the directional characteristic results in higher gain ; Is that correct? I would not wish to misunderstand..


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15270#post_23116465
> 
> 
> I think maybe you mean the directional characteristic results in higher gain ; Is that correct? I would not wish to misunderstand..



Gain and directionality are interlinked.


Think of how a MagLite works, for example. The brightest beam (highest gain) occurs when it is the most focused (most directional) while the weakest, widest beam is when it is the least focused.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15270#post_23118438
> 
> 
> Gain and directionality are interlinked.
> 
> 
> Think of how a MagLite works, for example. The brightest beam (highest gain) occurs when it is the most focused (most directional) while the weakest, widest beam is when it is the least focused.



Yes, but the amount of light is not increased with a narrower beam. More light falls on a given point because of how it is directed, but there is no increase in the available .light.

Of course, the gain from a target signal will increase by directing the receiving elements to the target signal.

The analogy with light is good, I think...........


----------



## Ennui

Yes, I did not phrase that correctly. Sorry.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

In the MagLite analagy, the TOTAL amount of light doesn't change, but it's "density" or "power" per unit of area illuminated is more concentrated since the area of illumination is smaller when the light beam is more focused.


For a receiving antenna, thing of the reciprocal action: The power density of the received signal will be somewhat proportional on how "focused" the incoming signals are by the antenna.


I think we're on the same track.


----------



## roseha

Hi, have a question. I live in Midtown Manhattan and just cancelled Time Warner a week ago. I've bought the ClearStream™ Micron R Indoor DTV Antenna --- http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/ClearStream-Micron-R-Indoor-DTV-Antenna-CSM1-WS-BLK.html from Antennas Direct and set it right inside the window. I connected it to the Tivo Premiere and ran Channel Scan. In this location it listed "65 Channels" but by my count I'm only getting 27. I can't even get Channels 11 and 13 which are a mile away. I think they are VHF and will have to combine a rabbit ears with the ClearStream


But why the 65/27 channel discrepancy? Anyone know? Thanks


Rosemary


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roseha*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15300#post_23119645
> 
> 
> Hi, have a question. I live in Midtown Manhattan and just cancelled Time Warner a week ago. I've bought the ClearStream™ Micron R Indoor DTV Antenna --- http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/ClearStream-Micron-R-Indoor-DTV-Antenna-CSM1-WS-BLK.html from Antennas Direct and set it right inside the window. I connected it to the Tivo Premiere and ran Channel Scan. In this location it listed "65 Channels" but by my count I'm only getting 27. I can't even get Channels 11 and 13 which are a mile away. I think they are VHF and will have to combine a rabbit ears with the ClearStream
> 
> 
> But why the 65/27 channel discrepancy? Anyone know? Thanks
> 
> 
> Rosemary


 

Hi,

 

In a word, Multipath.

 

There was an apartment in NYC that the first ATSC tuner that worked was first shown to actually work. Prior nothing would work, the ATSC standard had been adopted without a working tuner!

 

I read the report written by a person who was supporting a different transmission standard. I learned oh so very much from him about ATSC.

 

Unless you do get the channels you wish, you may have made a bad move.

 
*Warning: Spoiler! Some AVS Members may not wish to read my words!* (Click to show) 
 

I did not save his posts, it was not on AVS as he had been tarred and feathered and run out of AVS on a rail.

Some thugs followed him wherever he posted, they posted nonsense in rotten grammar which compared to his well written useful posts were a real pain to not read.

 

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/22411-4-miller-witnesses-excellent-atsc-reception-mark-schu

 

SHF


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> But why the 65/27 channel discrepancy? Anyone know?



Because the "67" comes from the database servers at Tivo and includes a bunch of stuff that's in your wider, general area although many stations may not be receivable at your particular location.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roseha*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15300#post_23119645
> 
> 
> 
> But why the 65/27 channel discrepancy? Anyone know? Thanks



The 65 channels include sub channels (2.1, 2.2, 2.3, etc.) so the channel count is always higher than the actual number of stations. Most stations have sub channels now.


Chuck


----------



## roseha

Thanks everyone


Well, I have to say that the quality of the picture is much improved on the channels I do get - no breaking up so I think the antenna is doing a good job on the UHF. I don't know what the story is with ABC-7 and its sub-channels - they come in fine especially with the new antenna so maybe they are broadcasting at more power than WPIX-11 and PBS-13 which I can't get at all.


I ordered an RCA rabbit ear antenna from Newegg so I will either connect that to the TV separately or use a combiner depending on the results . Thanks again.


----------



## retiredengineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roseha*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15300#post_23119645
> 
> 
> Hi, have a question. I live in Midtown Manhattan and just cancelled Time Warner a week ago. I've bought the ClearStream™ Micron R Indoor DTV Antenna --- http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/ClearStream-Micron-R-Indoor-DTV-Antenna-CSM1-WS-BLK.html from Antennas Direct and set it right inside the window. I connected it to the Tivo Premiere and ran Channel Scan. In this location it listed "65 Channels" but by my count I'm only getting 27. I can't even get Channels 11 and 13 which are a mile away. I think they are VHF and will have to combine a rabbit ears with the ClearStream
> 
> 
> Rosemary



Here is a magazine article describing test of three types of indoor antenna in downtown Manhattan: Rabbit ears, flat panel antenna, and the HDTVa. There is a clear winner.

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/columns/2010/04/hdtv-expert-product-review-three-for-dtvreception-february-2009.php


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *roseha*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15300#post_23120813
> 
> 
> I don't know what the story is with ABC-7 and its sub-channels - they come in fine especially with the new antenna so maybe they are broadcasting at more power than WPIX-11 and PBS-13 which I can't get at all.



The problem isn't signal strength. You have tremendously strong signals. It is multipath which can be severe with an indoor antenna in a city environment. Reflections are everywhere. If you move the antenna around enough you might be able to receive the missing stations.


Chuck


----------



## roseha




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15300#post_23121037
> 
> 
> The problem isn't signal strength. You have tremendously strong signals. It is multipath which can be severe with an indoor antenna in a city environment. Reflections are everywhere. If you move the antenna around enough you might be able to receive the missing stations.
> 
> 
> Chuck



thanks Chuck, I will try that when I get a chance. R


----------



## retiredengineer

There are also tips on how to improve reception at:

http://www.dtv.gov/fixreception.html


----------



## JOLiu

My wife and I just purchased a single family home in Irvine, CA (92620) and we are considering skipping cable and saving ourselves the $60/month. We discussed installing an OTA antenna; however we do not want to have an unsightly antenna at the exterior of our home. In one of the older threads, someone recommended the DB8 Multidirectional Ultra Long Range DTV Antenna for installation in the attic.


I understand that, having the antenna installed outside will always be more effective than having an antenna indoors (or in the attic). However, given our desire to not have an exterior antenna, do you think that the DB8 would work? Otherwise, do you have any other recommendations?


Also, if we have 2-3 TV's in the house, is it possible for the antenna to connect to all 3 TV's? If so, how?


Thanks!


----------



## holl_ands

First, you should enter your location into www.tvfool.com (both "Click Here" to see predictions and "Start Here" to see an individual station colorized coverage map and post the RESULTS URL (webaddress at top of browser) so we can see it.


If you are in the "flatlands" of Irvine, there is lots of signal strength, whereas if you are behind a hill there is less. You'll lose 13 dB +/- 7 dB of signal strength in a "typical" attic...and perhaps higher if foil backed insulation and /or trees are also blocking the signal. Despite all that, you'll probably have sufficient signal strength and should use a Preamp to drive multiple TVs. Since there are several strong FM stations 7-11 miles away, to avoid harmonic and intermodulation interference from FM stations, you should ONLY amplify UHF, so I would recommend Winegard AP-4700 which simply passes through the VHF signals:
http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload/chart29.pdf 


You will also need a VHF Antenna to receive Ch7, 9 & 11, such as Antennacraft Y-5-7-13. A UHF/VHF Combiner (e.g. UVSJ) can combine the signals from the two antennas either prior to the Preamp....or if you want to save 0.5 dB Noise Figure, use it AFTER the Preamp, being sure to use a UVSJ type device which has DCPASS on the UHF port: R-S or A-D, but NOT Pico-Macom or Holland.


Attic locations can be tricky, so try several different locations and heights to find the "sweet spots"....

PS: My son sucessfully uses CM4228 8-Bay UHF and 10-Element Hi-VHF Band Yagi in his attic---70 miles

from Mt Wilson North of French Valley Airport (North of Temecula).


----------



## JOLiu




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15300#post_23123697
> 
> 
> First, you should enter your location into www.tvfool.com (both "Click Here" to see predictions and "Start Here" to see an individual station colorized coverage map and post the RESULTS URL (webaddress at top of browser) so we can see it.
> 
> 
> If you are in the "flatlands" of Irvine, there is lots of signal strength, whereas if you are behind a hill there is less. You'll lose 13 dB +/- 7 dB of signal strength in a "typical" attic...and perhaps higher if foil backed insulation and /or trees are also blocking the signal. Despite all that, you'll probably have sufficient signal strength and should use a Preamp to drive multiple TVs. Since there are several strong FM stations 7-11 miles away, to avoid harmonic and intermodulation interference from FM stations, you should ONLY amplify UHF, so I would recommend Winegard AP-4700 which simply passes through the VHF signals:
> http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload/chart29.pdf
> 
> 
> You will also need a VHF Antenna to receive Ch7, 9 & 11, such as Antennacraft Y-5-7-13. A UHF/VHF Combiner (e.g. UVSJ) can combine the signals from the two antennas either prior to the Preamp....or if you want to save 0.5 dB Noise Figure, use it AFTER the Preamp, being sure to use a UVSJ type device which has DCPASS on the UHF port: R-S or A-D, but NOT Pico-Macom or Holland.



Here is the first URL: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1ddabb74747a65 


For the second link, it does not provide a URL that I can link to, so I am just including the results.  


I have zero knowledge about antennas, so all this discussion about harmonic and intermodulation interference is, unfortunately, like a foreign language to me.


----------



## retiredengineer

I previously posted that my daughter lives in a condo at Yale and Irvine, 92620, and she can receive a majority of the stations with the green background in your TVFool report with an indoor antenna. She uses the HDTVi but I would use the HDTVa if you plan to split the signal to multiple TVs. If you don't have any obstructions that blocks the TV signal than I would try an indoor antenna first. If you get all the stations you want then you are all set, otherwise, you will have to consider using an outdoor antenna.


----------



## JOLiu




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *retiredengineer*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15300#post_23124179
> 
> 
> I previously posted that my daughter lives in a condo at Yale and Irvine, 92620, and she can receive a majority of the stations with the green background in your TVFool report with an indoor antenna. She uses the HDTVi but I would use the HDTVa if you plan to split the signal to multiple TVs. If you don't have any obstructions that blocks the TV signal than I would try an indoor antenna first. If you get all the stations you want then you are all set, otherwise, you will have to consider using an outdoor antenna.



Thank you for your response. If I understand Google correctly, an HDTVa is simply an HDTVi antenna w/ amp? Also, could you recommend a good indoor antenna for our purposes?


----------



## retiredengineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JOLiu*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15300#post_23124357
> 
> 
> Thank you for your response. If I understand Google correctly, an HDTVa is simply an HDTVi antenna w/ amp? Also, could you recommend a good indoor antenna for our purposes?



The HDTVa has gotten good reviews as an indoor antenna so I would recommend it. The HDTVa has an amplifier that is required if you are going to split the TV signals. Most of the Los Angeles stations transmit on UHF (real channel 14 and above) so the HDTVa is a good choice. For VHF real channels 7, 9, 11 and 13, you have to use the rabbit ears. I found extending each rabbit ear, 22 inches, then tilting both up until the tip-to-tip distance is 38 inches gives reliable reception (no video or audio dropouts.)


----------



## JOLiu

Sorry - but could you provide me with a brand and/or model # for the HDTVa?


----------



## retiredengineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JOLiu*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15300#post_23124639
> 
> 
> Sorry - but could you provide me with a brand and/or model # for the HDTVa?



Amazon sells it as: 'Terk HDTVa Indoor Amplified High-Definition Antenna'


You can read the reviews. If it doesn't work for you, you can return it.


----------



## tylerSC

The Terk HDTVa and HDTVi are sold at Fry's Electronics. You can always buy and return if necessary. And Costco sells the amped Winegard Flatwave. But may be marginal for VHF unless signals are strong.


----------



## dbdoc

As you can see so far, there is a lot to consider for installing an antenna, especially if you want to feed 2 or 3 tvs/rooms. If there are some houses nearby with outdoor antennas, you may want to introduce yourself and try to get info from them. As far as distribution (1 ant/multiple tvs), if the house is wired for cable and you are not going to subscribe, you can use these cables. A splitter is used to split the single antenna feed to the multiple tvs. You can get these in 2-way, 3-way or more as needed. If there are no cables where you need them, RG-6 coax would need to be run to the desired location. The Terk HDTVa is an indoor antenna, commonly used as a set top antenna, or close by the set. If this works, you could get one for each set and be done. For one antenna to multiple rooms, it would make sense to use a small outdoor antenna in the attic and run the cable to a splitter to feed the rooms. Outdoor antennas have mounting hardware which make it easier to mount in an attic and aim properly. The db8 antenna you mentioned is UHF only (ch14-51). If you want channels 7,9 and 11, you will need a VHF antenna that will pick up at least hi-band VHF (ch 7-13). Antennas are available for UHF only, VHF only or both VHF/UHF and some for UHF plus hi-band VHF.

The more tvs fed from an antenna through splitters, the less signal each tv will receive. This is where preamps come in to get enough signal to each tv. If you want to experiment you can check all this out yourself, otherwise try to find someone to help.


----------



## JOLiu




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15300#post_23125921
> 
> 
> The Terk HDTVa and HDTVi are sold at Fry's Electronics. You can always buy and return if necessary. And Costco sells the amped Winegard Flatwave. But may be marginal for VHF unless signals are strong.



Thank you!


----------



## JOLiu




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dbdoc*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15300#post_23127559
> 
> 
> As you can see so far, there is a lot to consider for installing an antenna, especially if you want to feed 2 or 3 tvs/rooms. If there are some houses nearby with outdoor antennas, you may want to introduce yourself and try to get info from them. As far as distribution (1 ant/multiple tvs), if the house is wired for cable and you are not going to subscribe, you can use these cables. A splitter is used to split the single antenna feed to the multiple tvs. You can get these in 2-way, 3-way or more as needed. If there are no cables where you need them, RG-6 coax would need to be run to the desired location. The Terk HDTVa is an indoor antenna, commonly used as a set top antenna, or close by the set. If this works, you could get one for each set and be done. For one antenna to multiple rooms, it would make sense to use a small outdoor antenna in the attic and run the cable to a splitter to feed the rooms. Outdoor antennas have mounting hardware which make it easier to mount in an attic and aim properly. The db8 antenna you mentioned is UHF only (ch14-51). If you want channels 7,9 and 11, you will need a VHF antenna that will pick up at least hi-band VHF (ch 7-13). Antennas are available for UHF only, VHF only or both VHF/UHF and some for UHF plus hi-band VHF.
> 
> The more tvs fed from an antenna through splitters, the less signal each tv will receive. This is where preamps come in to get enough signal to each tv. If you want to experiment you can check all this out yourself, otherwise try to find someone to help.



"A lot to consider" is right! The reason we are considering the attic installation route is for a "cleaner" look - no indoor antennas next to (or near) the TV. if we install the antenna in the attic and use splitters to each room where there is a TV, each TV can simply connect to that cable w/ no fuss and no antennas to position for best reception.


Thank you also for the information regarding the db8 antenna. I did not even consider the UHF/VHF difference. Is there a VHF/UHF antenna, as well as a preamp, that you would recommend?


----------



## gregzoll

Joliu, do not use multiple splitters, use the largest that can feed the total number of sets you are going to hookup.


The more splitters you have in the mix, the more degraded the signal gets to the last set at the end.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Technically, using splitters doesn't affect the quality of the signals, but it does divide the available power which may degrade reception performance if the power levels drop below the threshold needed for reception.


If signal power budgets are properly maintained, it makes little difference whether a daisy-chaining or hub topology is used. Either can be done, depending on the unique circumstances, but both methods have their advantages and disadvantages.


----------



## JOLiu




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gregzoll*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15300#post_23131372
> 
> 
> Joliu, do not use multiple splitters, use the largest that can feed the total number of sets you are going to hookup.
> 
> 
> The more splitters you have in the mix, the more degraded the signal gets to the last set at the end.



Good to know. All of this information that you folks are providing is extremely helpful for someone as unknowledgeable as I am!


----------



## dbdoc

Recommending specific anything without first-hand knowledge of your exact situation is simply an educated guess. The above suggestions by holl_ands are good ones. If I interpret it correctly, he was suggesting using your db8 with the antennacraft Y5-7-13 hi-band VHF and using an AP4700 preamp to amplify the UHF channels only. A db4 might also work for UHF if the db8 is too wide for the attic. Another place to check these and others is www.solidsignal.com . There is a book's worth of info on this thread and you can use search function to sift thru it. I am still getting over you having so many stations all in the same direction. I am in an urban setting with towers all around me. The db series bowtie UHF antennas are great. I have a couple of db2s pointed in different directions.


----------



## holl_ands

Without KNOWING how much Loss there is in YOUR attic location(s), it's difficult to say whether an inexpensive 4-Bay antenna is "enough"....maybe...and maybe NOT [won't know until you try it for months at a time]. So 8-Bay is good insurance against UNKNOWNS that can pop up....including signal blockage due to trees etc, "Clutter Loss" due to signals grazing along at roof-top & hill-top heights, high multipath interference (frequent in attic locations) and perhaps an older DTV or OTA STB tuner that doesn't accommodate multipath as well as newer sets. It's also possible CM4228HD will have "adequate" Gain in Hi-VHF band....something DB-8 and commercial 4-Bay's won't do:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl/cm4228hd [Ch9 on 186-192 MHz could be a problem....]


But since attic Loss at Hi-VHF frequencies in some cases can be fairly high (and to provide additional protection against Man-Made Interference in VHF Band NOT included in TVFool predictions) the low-risk approach is to use the separate, inexpensive Y5-7-13 Hi-VHF Antenna I recommended above, esp. since you should avoid amplifying VHF signals and will incur splitter losses as you try to drive multiple drops.


Most of the medium length Combination Hi-VHF/UHF Antennas should also be "adequate"....but I think you'll find them to be more expensive and much more difficult to install in the correct direction when trying to squeeze into an attic location.


So the best we can do is to either 1) encourage you to try something inexpensive and upgrade if it isn't "enough" or 2) recommend something more robust to begin with that provided adequate "fade margin", so that it continues to work throughout the year as propagation conditions change _and will also be "adequate" when one or more stations on Mt Wilson are forced to operate on their lower ERP fall-back transmitters (e.g. last fire season):
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/temporarypage.html_


----------



## JOLiu




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15300#post_23133437
> 
> 
> Without KNOWING how much Loss there is in YOUR attic location(s), it's difficult to say whether an inexpensive 4-Bay antenna is "enough"....maybe...and maybe NOT [won't know until you try it for months at a time]. So 8-Bay is good insurance against UNKNOWNS that can pop up....including signal blockage due to trees etc, "Clutter Loss" due to signals grazing along at roof-top & hill-top heights, high multipath interference (frequent in attic locations) and perhaps an older DTV or OTA STB tuner that doesn't accommodate multipath as well as newer sets. It's also possible CM4228HD will have "adequate" Gain in Hi-VHF band....something DB-8 and commercial 4-Bay's won't do:
> http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl/cm4228hd [Ch9 on 186-192 MHz could be a problem....]
> 
> 
> But since attic Loss at Hi-VHF frequencies in some cases can be fairly high (and to provide additional protection against Man-Made Interference in VHF Band NOT included in TVFool predictions) the low-risk approach is to use the separate, inexpensive Y5-7-13 Hi-VHF Antenna I recommended above, esp. since you should avoid amplifying VHF signals and will incur splitter losses as you try to drive multiple drops.
> 
> 
> Most of the medium length Combination Hi-VHF/UHF Antennas should also be "adequate"....but I think you'll find them to be more expensive and much more difficult to install in the correct direction when trying to squeeze into an attic location.
> 
> 
> So the best we can do is to either 1) encourage you to try something inexpensive and upgrade if it isn't "enough" or 2) recommend something more robust to begin with that provided adequate "fade margin", so that it continues to work throughout the year as propagation conditions change _and will also be "adequate" when one or more stations on Mt Wilson are forced to operate on their lower ERP fall-back transmitters (e.g. last fire season):
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/temporarypage.html_



I totally understand that you are all simply providing educated guesses as to what "might" work in my situation, and I appreciate all of your help in this regard


The biggest thing that my wife has emphasized is that she does not want an unsightly (i.e., large) antenna up on the roof. In checking out solidsignal.com, I came across the Wineguard and AntennaCraft line of antennas, which look much more discrete than your traditional antennas. Does anyone have any experience or opinions regarding these options?


----------



## gregzoll

This is my attic setup. I actually moved it back towards the peak, and over a bit. Once we get done knocking the chimney down farther, I will not have that in the way anymore. Just got it knocked down below the roof, and the hole patched today. My roofer did a great job, and you cannot even see where the chimney came up through the front of the house on the roof. It actually was starting to leak worse through the mortar joints, especially after the Earthquake in 2008.


We finally got the new Power Vent water heater this year to replace the old Draft water heater that was 14 years old, it gave me the reason to go with a OTA finally, especially after we got Cozi-TV in our area. With the Current setup and the Channel Master 7778 pre-amp, I am getting 17.x (UHF 18 at around 49 miles away) at 92% signal, 49.x (VHF 13 at around 13 miles away) at 100%. The UHF/VHF Splitter/Combiner is hidden in the photo, due to it is on the other side of the pole.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JOLiu*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15300#post_23135978
> 
> 
> I totally understand that you are all simply providing educated guesses as to what "might" work in my situation, and I appreciate all of your help in this regard
> 
> 
> The biggest thing that my wife has emphasized is that she does not want an unsightly (i.e., large) antenna up on the roof. In checking out solidsignal.com, I came across the Wineguard and AntennaCraft line of antennas, which look much more discrete than your traditional antennas. Does anyone have any experience or opinions regarding these options?



Winegard has been a long time favorite of mine since I put the first one up in 1969. The current HD769xP series seem like decent performers. Many people are happy with AntennaCraft too. Most of the "largeness" of older TV antennas is the low VHF elements which are left off of most new designs including the HD769xP antennas so they look much smaller.


The house my parents moved to in Anaheim (close to Irvine for those not familiar with SoCal) came with an attic antenna. It did not work very well. I put them up an outdoor antenna which was a dramatic improvement.


The antenna required to receive the stations you want will be dictated by your situation. There are no magic antennas. There is no little indoor antenna that will work as well as a large outdoor antenna. You may very well be able to use an attic antenna to receive what you want but if that proves to be inadequate then you'll need an outdoor antenna. If the required antenna doesn't meet the wife acceptance factor then it's back to cable.


Chuck


----------



## etrin

gregzoll when I saw your picture I had to post.

I have almost the exact same setup in my attic.

I have a db4 pointing at 90% of our tv channels about 7 miles away, including the channel I am having problems with.

one old tv uses a digital converter box and shows this channel but every once in a while it will pause for a second, but not break up.

my other tv is thru a HD homerun box and into an windows media center.

Now for my question. (ABOUT DAMN TIME)










I put in some surveillance cameras in my back yard and the cables run pretty close to the antennas. The bnc/power cables that these things run on are not the super shielded stuff I am sure of that LOL

the only problem I see if on one channel that is the most powerfull channel in our area and I get break up's on the lower part of the picture (pixilizartion blocks or about an inch sq.) happens about every 5 minutes and last for 10-30 seconds. no sound.


could these cables cause this or since its not continuous they are not?


I ask before getting new longer cables and re routing them.

I thought of putting foil around the cables but a friend said NO that will really screw up your reception.


ideas and thoughts very welcome.


----------



## gregzoll

I think that if they are unsheilded, or the jacket is broken, they could cause egrees & ingress issues, depending on the power due to length of run. This is why most people are starting to go with wireless cameras for long runs, due to you do not have a lightening path. I hope you have a gas discharge at each camera, and grounding to earth ground, so you do not have a ungrounded system.


Most times, people will run the camera wires through conduit, when buried in the ground, so if you ever update the system, or the cables start to degrade, you can pull them back out, while pulling the new cables through.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *etrin*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15330#post_23139736
> 
> 
> I put in some surveillance cameras in my back yard and the cables run pretty close to the antennas. The bnc/power cables that these things run on are not the super shielded stuff I am sure of that LOL
> 
> the only problem I see if on one channel that is the most powerfull channel in our area and I get break up's on the lower part of the picture (pixilizartion blocks or about an inch sq.) happens about every 5 minutes and last for 10-30 seconds. no sound.
> 
> 
> could these cables cause this or since its not continuous they are not?



This is easy to test. Did the problem start when you installed the cameras? Does the problem go away if you power down the cameras? If not, then something else is causing the problem.


Chuck


----------



## A J

  


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JOLiu*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15300#post_23135978
> 
> 
> The biggest thing that my wife has emphasized is that she does not want an unsightly (i.e., large) antenna up on the roof. In checking out solidsignal.com, I came across the Wineguard and AntennaCraft line of antennas, which look much more discrete than your traditional antennas. Does anyone have any experience or opinions regarding these options?



I've been using a Winegard FV-HD30 in my attic for over two years. My local stations (VHF-High and UHF) range from 15 to 37 miles and are spread about 50 degrees apart (I have the antenna aimed toward the mid-point of that spread). I get excellent signal strength on all of these stations, split to two TVs, even during rain and with snow on the roof during winter.

http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-FV-HD30-FreeVision-HDTV-Antenna/dp/B002TIELEM/ref=pd_sim_e_4 


A nice thing about this type antenna is that it is very compact and would be easy to dismantle, box up, and return for refund if it doesn't work out for you.


I did find that I had to move the antenna around the attic quite a bit, while my better half checked results on the TV, until I located the "sweet spot" for best reception. I was amazed that a couple feet one way or the other made such a huge difference. I mounted the antenna, with it's provided clamp, to an old camera tripod I picked up at a Goodwill store.


----------



## Josea

  I recently had the amplified Winegard Sensar TV Antenna (GS-2200) installed on my roof. Attached is a picture of the ground wire that was spliced in. Should I create some type of cover to protect this connection? The picture is on the outside rear wall of my home. Thanks in advance for any advise, Josea

BTW the antenna works great, I am getting 50 stations in SE Pennsylvania.



Thanks for the advise Gregzoll



vvvvvvvvvvvv


----------



## gregzoll

You could. Really by the NEC, it states that it must be a ground distribution block, not that item for attachment of grounds, but hey it works, and as long as it goes to common ground for your electrical system, I personally would say that you are covered. Just make sure though that you still have a whole house surge, gas discharge block on downlead coax for the antenna, and surge strips at each tv center.


Never can be too safe, since static discharge from a lightening strike can wreck havoc on equipment.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Under NEC, splicing of ground wires is not permitted. The ground wire must be continuous from the grounded equipment to its termination at the permitted ground attachment point.


Yours will certainly probably work, at least until the connections oxidize and corrode, it just won't pass muster with a code official (AHJ).


----------



## Josea

I appreciate the well educated responses... Right now my FIOS Ont is grounded to a bracket attached to the electric meter, (that is where the spliced green wire in my recent picture terminates)... should I get an electrician in to redo the entire grounding for both? I can supply a pic if needed but it is pouring rain now


----------



## gregzoll

They are allowed to do that, but without the installer knowing if the conduit or meter is properly grounded to earth ground, you end up creating a situation, that is nothing more than cosmetic. I would suggest finding your earth ground, run a #8 to a bonding block, that is attached inside a outside casing like they use for A/C disconnects, and then run #10 from the FiOS & Antenna, and if you have any other CATV or telephone even though they may not be currently in use at the house, still connect them to the bonding block with #10 wire to the grounding block.


----------



## rabbit73

The split bolt is an approved way to make a connection. The main grounding wire from the house electrical system to its ground rod must not be disconnected even for a moment, and the split bolt allows a grounding connection to that wire.


A grounding connection to the metal meter base can be OK, but it might not be done correctly in your case.
https://www.electricmotioncompany.com/emc.php?type=ibonding 


The coax for your antenna should be connected to a grounding block. The antenna mast and the grounding block both should be connected to the house electrical ground with no. 10 copper wires. The NEC calls the grounding block an ADU----Antenna Discharge Unit.

*Grounding Antenna and Dish*
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1333059 
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333059/grounding-antenna-and-dish#post_20408273 


The latest approved device is an Intersystem Bonding Termination:
http://www.erico.com/products/ERITECHIntersystemBondingTermination.asp 


The lay-in clamp allows connection to the main grounding electrode without breaking its connection. I recently saw one being used by an electrician on PBS This Old House:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/LT1476.pdf 
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/LT19313.pdf 
http://www.erico.com/public/library/Engineering/CFS380_F.pdf


----------



## Josea

Sorry to go a little off topic, but I was just wondering if this would be a good choice for whole house electrical protection (as well as coax and phone) http://www.amazon.com/Your-One-Source-SDSB1175C-Protector/dp/B002FYIHAO/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1364861485&sr=8-3&keywords=whole+house+surge+protector . I have 100 AMP service and circut breakers.


----------



## gregzoll

I have the older version of this http://www.amazon.com/Intermatic-IG1240RC3-Type-2-Protection-Device/dp/B003NVLWN2/ref=pd_sim_sbs_hi_1 Only difference between the two, is that the older one had three LED's (2 Green LED's (1 per leg), 1 Red for tripped breaker, or non-functioning). The one you linked is a pretty robust unit. Depending on the panel you have for your house, you may be able to find a in panel type protection, which takes the place of two breaker slots.


I chose the Intermatic at the time, due to it was available at our local Menard's, and the price could not be beat at the time (was $89, now up around $145).


----------



## gregzoll




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15300_100#post_23148534
> 
> 
> Under NEC, splicing of ground wires is not permitted. The ground wire must be continuous from the grounded equipment to its termination at the permitted ground attachment point.
> 
> 
> Yours will certainly probably work, at least until the connections oxidize and corrode, it just won't pass muster with a code official (AHJ).


He is not splicing the grounds, he is using it to create a common ground block, to feed all com's (catv, antenna, telco, etc.), to his Earth ground bond for the meter pan or main panel.


----------



## See The Light

Channel Scan with a RCA DTA800B1 using an RCA ANT751R (mounted in the attic of a one-story home in Irving), about 19 miles from Cedar Hill:


66 total channels registered = 25 Primary channels and 41 sub-channels.


----------



## dinosaur1

Cutting the cord and need help.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...1dda9ad4dbc72b 


I have 3 Panasonic HD tv's. Master Bedroom 1, bedroom 2, basement rec room for entertaining 3. Do I need a converter? I was thinking of going with 2-3 Roku's. Master bedroom, we watch most of the tv shows here. Bedroom 2,-my son's bedroom, he loves watching cartoons and nba games. Basement rec room-entertaining area for guests.


I tried using an antenna like this in the past, but the reception was very spotty on a cloudy day.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/RCA+-+Am...&skuId=8280843 


I was thinking of going with this antenna.
http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Amplified...pr_product_top 


or this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Paper-Thin-Lea...s=hdtv+antenna 


Anything else I need to know that would help us out?


----------



## SFischer1


Hi,

 

Bad TVFool link!

 

And the rest also.

 

Or is it just me?

 

Try right click and and select "Copy shortcut", not copy.

 

SHF


----------



## mikepier

Yeah, I can't get the links either. But to answer your first question, if your Panasonics were purchased in the last 4-5 years , chances are they already have a tuner built-in, so you would not need a converter.


----------



## Calaveras

Those are incomplete links and have "..." where there should be more numbers and letters. Please repost complete links.


----------



## dinosaur1

Sorry here we go.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1ddaa134a3c3cd 



I tried using an antenna like this in the past, but the reception was very spotty on a cloudy day.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/RCA+-+Amplified+Indoor+Off-Air+HDTV+Antenna/8280843.p;jsessionid=3457AD63064D2FB076B703AF9BC3F9E1.bbolsp-app01-101?id=1171058630563&skuId=8280843&st=rca%20antenna&cp=1&lp=1 


I was thinking of going with this antenna.

]] http://www.amazon.com/Mohu-Leaf-Paper-Thin-Indoor-Antenna/dp/B004QK7HI8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1365810484&sr=8-1&keywords=mohu


----------



## Calaveras

Your situation is about as easy as it gets, strong signals not far away and all in the same direction. The only issue is you have one low VHF station on channel 5 and one high VHF station on 8. Do you care about those? If not you could get a UHF only antenna.


You don't need nor should you try any amplified antennas. Your signals are too strong for that. If you can't get an indoor antenna to work it would be because of multipath. The weather should not affect your reception with transmitters so close. If indoor is a problem then the simplest outdoor antenna should work.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dinosaur1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15330#post_23197476
> 
> 
> Sorry here we go.
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1ddaa134a3c3cd
> 
> 
> 
> I tried using an antenna like this in the past, but the reception was very spotty on a cloudy day.
> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/RCA+-+Amplified+Indoor+Off-Air+HDTV+Antenna/8280843.p;jsessionid=3457AD63064D2FB076B703AF9BC3F9E1.bbolsp-app01-101?id=1171058630563&skuId=8280843&st=rca%20antenna&cp=1&lp=1
> 
> 
> I was thinking of going with this antenna.
> 
> ]] http://www.amazon.com/Mohu-Leaf-Paper-Thin-Indoor-Antenna/dp/B004QK7HI8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1365810484&sr=8-1&keywords=mohu



I see the RCA comes with a 6 foot cable. If you haven't done so already, you might want to try using a longer cable in order to attempt to find a sweet spot in the room. I'd also try the RCA without the rabbit ears if possible. Location is critical for indoor reception. If you decide to go with the Leaf, this is also true. Amazon shows the Leaf with a 6 foot cable. However, if you buy from Mohu, they are now offering the Leaf without the cable attached. Mohu offers 10 and 25 foot cables that are not attached. If that extra distance would get the antenna near an east-facing window, that could make all of the difference. Good Luck.


----------



## dinosaur1

I just read that Roku is partnering with Vox to offer broadcast TV. Worth waiting for?


I have Uverse now and its great, but I just can't justify paying $50/month for TV. Its crazy.


----------



## reddog007




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dinosaur1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15330#post_23197476
> 
> 
> Sorry here we go.
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1ddaa134a3c3cd
> 
> 
> I was thinking of going with this antenna.
> 
> ]] http://www.amazon.com/Mohu-Leaf-Paper-Thin-Indoor-Antenna/dp/B004QK7HI8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1365810484&sr=8-1&keywords=mohu



I have the Winegard version of that antenna. Very good antenna. It didn't pick up all my channels, but then they are not all coming from one direction and are 20 miles out. The ones off to the side weren't picked up. Yours are all LOS and ~16miles out!


This is the one that I have
http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-FlatWave-Indoor-Digital-Antenna/dp/B008WVM6FG/ref=sr_1_4?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1365869879&sr=1-4&keywords=winegard+antenna 



When you held it up it is very sensitive to the direction. Millimeters actually matter in picture or no picture. So next to the window it had to be spot on to get anything. Actually had easier success with it laying down and it was less sensitive to how it was directed.


----------



## dinosaur1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *reddog007*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15330#post_23199379
> 
> 
> I have the Winegard version of that antenna. Very good antenna. It didn't pick up all my channels, but then they are not all coming from one direction and are 20 miles out. The ones off to the side weren't picked up. Yours are all LOS and ~16miles out!
> 
> 
> This is the one that I have
> http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-FlatWave-Indoor-Digital-Antenna/dp/B008WVM6FG/ref=sr_1_4?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1365869879&sr=1-4&keywords=winegard+antenna
> 
> 
> 
> When you held it up it is very sensitive to the direction. Millimeters actually matter in picture or no picture. So next to the window it had to be spot on to get anything. Actually had easier success with it laying down and it was less sensitive to how it was directed.



So you recommend this over the Mohu?


----------



## tylerSC

Both Mohu and Winegard have new amped versions of these flat antennas as well, which may or may not help depending upon location.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *reddog007*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15330#post_23199379
> 
> 
> When you held it up it is very sensitive to the direction. Millimeters actually matter in picture or no picture. So next to the window it had to be spot on to get anything. Actually had easier success with it laying down and it was less sensitive to how it was directed.



This is because multipath is virtually impossible to avoid with an indoor antenna which is why I always recommend an outdoor antenna if at all possible. That will greatly reduce multipath issues.


----------



## See The Light




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dinosaur1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15320_40#post_23198831
> 
> 
> I just read that Roku is partnering with Vox to offer broadcast TV. Worth waiting for?
> 
> 
> I have Uverse now and its great, but I just can't justify paying $50/month for TV. Its crazy.



What exactly do mean by "broadcast TV". OTA local channels ? ?


----------



## reddog007

This is what I got up a week ago or so.


Still have a little tinkering to do with it, accessories and cables I need to install/run. In a months time I should maybe have a second UHF antenna up there pointing the opposite direction. See about getting eight more channels, two in HD.

Antenna went where our old DirectTV dish you to be.

http://s8.photobucket.com/user/red_dog007/media/IMAG0053_zpsb70cb139.jpg.html


----------



## The Hound

Nice.


----------



## dinosaur1

I have 3 set top boxes with uVerse. Don't they burn alot of power? What is a good way to avoid that other than unplugging them all?


----------



## gregzoll




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dinosaur1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15300_100#post_23209086
> 
> 
> I have 3 set top boxes with uVerse. Don't they burn alot of power? What is a good way to avoid that other than unplugging them all?


Leave them alone. They use about a penny a hour, just doing nothing, even when watching tv, they use around 2 cents a hour.


----------



## Johnnycanal

So I cut the cable today with dtv and I am thinking of going OTA. I am up in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada mountain range north of Fresno, CA


"First, you should enter your location into www.tvfool.com (both "Click Here" to see predictions and "Start Here" to see an individual station colorized coverage map and post the RESULTS URL (webaddress at top of browser) so we can see it."


So any thoughts:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1ddaf65a208286 


I think it will be the roll of the dice to see if I can pick up any OTA from Fresno with a roof mounted UHF


----------



## Johnnycanal

Solid Signal recommends:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=HD8200U&d=Winegard-HD8200U-Heavy-Duty-Platinum-VHF%2FUHF%2FFM-HDTV-Antenna-%28HD-8200U%29&more=yes


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Johnnycanal*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15360#post_23211663
> 
> 
> Solid Signal recommends:
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=HD8200U&d=Winegard-HD8200U-Heavy-Duty-Platinum-VHF%2FUHF%2FFM-HDTV-Antenna-%28HD-8200U%29&more=yes



Why the heck would they recommend that thing? You don't have any receivable low-VHF stations in range.


----------



## Dave Loudin

[quote name="Johnnycanal" url="/t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15360#post_23211582"

I think it will be the roll of the dice to see if I can pick up any OTA from Fresno with a roof mounted UHF[/quote]


I have a similar prediction (many more in the yellow, though.) With something like a Winegard HD7696P in the attic, I can pull in anything in the yellow. The channels in the red are hit or miss, mainly miss. Going outside with an antenna the size of a Winegard HD7698P will help, but I can't guarantee that you'll get reliable reception.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Johnnycanal*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15360#post_23211582
> 
> 
> So I cut the cable today with dtv and I am thinking of going OTA. I am up in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada mountain range north of Fresno, CA
> 
> 
> "First, you should enter your location into www.tvfool.com (both "Click Here" to see predictions and "Start Here" to see an individual station colorized coverage map and post the RESULTS URL (webaddress at top of browser) so we can see it."
> 
> 
> So any thoughts:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1ddaf65a208286
> 
> 
> I think it will be the roll of the dice to see if I can pick up any OTA from Fresno with a roof mounted UHF



I live in the Sierra foothills about 60 miles northwest of you. I know the problems people in this area face with OTA. I can receive all the stations in my TVFool report down to KICU 36 with a noise margin of -13.8 dB except for a few low power stations shown but not on the air.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dcc49e65f5d3c18 


But..... I'm using the antennas shown in my avatar which are 70' high. This height is required to clear all the local ground clutter, especially trees. If the proposed location for your antenna has trees right in front of it you can forget UHF. If it's clear for 1/2 mile of more before encountering any trees then it might work. Trees are less of a problem for high VHF.


Also the angle to the first edge down the path that the signals have to refract over is important. My first edge is 2350' away and the angle is 0.8 degrees. The greater the angle the more the attenuation.


Another major issue up here is multipath. A lot of us have a problem with higher mountains behind our antennas with a better path to the transmitters reflecting strong signals and causing multipath. I don't know if that applies to you or not.


I've found that TVFool often under predicts the signal strength for non LOS signals which is to my advantage. I performed an analysis on my local stations and a few not so local stations to see how TVFool performed in regards to predicted Noise Margin. I've attached that table. Look at the last column which takes into account all my parameters. Positive means better than predicted and negative means worse than predicted. The last two stations are my only LOS stations.


For you I'd recommend a 91XG for UHF and a YA-1713 for VHF (KAIL), or better yet a single channel yagi for KAIL assuming KNSO is not a priority.


----------



## jaygroundw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gcd0865*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15270#post_23076292
> 
> 
> Jay:
> 
> 
> Calaveras is right about channel 11.1, which is on RF10. You're using a UHF-only antenna (albeit a very good one), which won't resonate well at VHF-high frequencies. Cheapest/quickest solution is to add a Y5-7-13 VHF-high antenna a foot or two below your DB8 on the same mast, and join it with your DB8 using two short (3-4-foot) RG-6 coax pieces fed into a UVSJ up at the mast, with a single RG-6 coax fed down from there to your tv. Also, as Calaveras said, if you're using any kind of distribution amp to split your signal to multiple tv's, take it out and replace it with a simple splitter, since you're too close to your transmitters for any amplification.
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=y5-7-13
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=uvsj
> 
> 
> With at least one VHF-high station in your area, the DB8 wasn't really the right choice for you, even though it's a very good UHF antenna. It's way more powerful than you need at such close range, and UHF-only. Presuming that it can't be returned since it's been outside, if you wanted to sell it to someone who needs a longer-range UHF antenna, you could switch to the RCA ANT751 or Winegard HD1080, both of which cover both UHF and VHF-high, in a smaller size.
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=ANT751
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=HD-1080



Thank you all very much for your feedback - very useful and I am almost there. I bought the Winegard HD1080, installed it an bingo - I now get the missing Atlanta VHF channels. However, I suffer pixilation on a couple channels still and wanted some more of your valuable feedback. As background, I have moved the antenna 180 degrees and monitored channel signal strength through the TV box. What seems to be happening on a few channels is the a fluxuation of the signal. Perfect and strong then black and that cycles back and forth.Is that modern day multi-path problems?


Is there a proper way to aim this particular antenna. It's a rectangle configuration and I assumed the from was the flat portion and thats what I aim at about 190 degrees where most of the transmitters are located? After moving it around, I found that I get the best reception with the side in the direction. Doesn't seem logical but that's why I am asking.


Would it be helpful to provide the channel ID's of those giving me problems?


Is there any other info you think I could provide that might help?


thanks again for all your assistance.


Jay


----------



## Johnnycanal

Thanks


The "91XG for UHF" seems like a much better choice than the HD8200U. I think I'll pass on the HD7698P as VHF isn't an issue.


I think I can get a bit off the rooftop without too much problem, but a 70' tower will not meet the WAF...







I'll climb up there this weekend with compass and binoculars and take a look.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jaygroundw*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15360#post_23214115
> 
> 
> Thank you all very much for your feedback - very useful and I am almost there. I bought the Winegard HD1080, installed it an bingo - I now get the missing Atlanta VHF channels. However, I suffer pixilation on a couple channels still and wanted some more of your valuable feedback. As background, I have moved the antenna 180 degrees and monitored channel signal strength through the TV box. What seems to be happening on a few channels is the a fluxuation of the signal. Perfect and strong then black and that cycles back and forth.Is that modern day multi-path problems?
> 
> 
> Is there a proper way to aim this particular antenna. It's a rectangle configuration and I assumed the from was the flat portion and thats what I aim at about 190 degrees where most of the transmitters are located? After moving it around, I found that I get the best reception with the side in the direction. Doesn't seem logical but that's why I am asking.
> 
> 
> Would it be helpful to provide the channel ID's of those giving me problems?
> 
> 
> Is there any other info you think I could provide that might help?
> 
> 
> thanks again for all your assistance.
> 
> 
> Jay



Sounds like what you're describing could be airplane flutter (multipath). It goes like this: Stable signal and then it pixelates or drops out completely. It may go in and out and then settles back down for some time. Most of the time signal is okay. This is difficult to do much about.


If the signal constantly pixelates/drops out and seldom settles down then it could be moving vegetation caused by wind disrupting the signal. Moving the antenna to a different spot may help this.


If the signal pixelates and then drops out for an extended period of time then it's more likely to be temperature inversion issues that lower the signal strength below the digital cliff. A better/higher antenna may help this.


Here's a link to a spectrum analyzer animation I made showing what's happening during airplane multipath. This is KGO on channel 7 when it is weak. It is unstable then goes into what looks like an oscillation. That's the airplane reflection adding/subtracting from the ground signal and changes as the airplane moves. Notice the next signal up on channel 8 is stable. Ignore the digital public service channel on 173.3 MHz that's bouncing up and down.

http://images.aa6g.org/AVSForums/KGO-Animation-3.gif


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Johnnycanal*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15360#post_23214173
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> The "91XG for UHF" seems like a much better choice than the HD8200U. I think I'll pass on the HD7698P as VHF isn't an issue.
> 
> 
> I think I can get a bit off the rooftop without too much problem, but a 70' tower will not meet the WAF...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll climb up there this weekend with compass and binoculars and take a look.



The 91XG has the best pattern of any UHF antenna I know of and hence does the best job rejecting multipath signals. I've heard reports from up here that that is the only antenna some foothill residents have had success with. That's certainly true fro me.


The height of the antenna required to receive what you want will be determined by your tree/horizon situation. There are no magic antennas and the WAF is irrelevant except to decide whether you'll have to return to satellite/cable. Of course the minimum height might be impractical under any circumstances. My minimum useful height is about 60' and I was able to get them up to 70'. 120' would clear my closest edge but that is too expensive and impractical for other reasons.


----------



## Purplepig60

Hi, I'm new in the forum. i hope that this reply finds the guy in Winlock WA. I live close by, on a hill in Chehalis WA and I've been using the 91xg, trying to improve my reception, thinking of going to two stacked. Would like to come by and visit you, get ideas and advice. is that possible?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Purplepig60*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15360#post_23226401
> 
> 
> Hi, I'm new in the forum. i hope that this reply finds the guy in Winlock WA. I live close by, on a hill in Chehalis WA and I've been using the 91xg, trying to improve my reception, thinking of going to two stacked. Would like to come by and visit you, get ideas and advice. is that possible?



If you can find one of his posts you can send him a private message.


----------



## OTAhead

Hey guys. This is not an antenna related problem, but I am not sure where to go... I am having an issue with a local LD TV broadcaster who is affiliated with the THIS TV network. There is no CC provided through his LD channel, but I have confirmed through a local full power broadcaster 75 miles away that CC was being provided through the network... Thr local LD owner claims that to provide CC would be cost prohibitive... I say it just needs to be configured to pass through the network provided CC... Where can I go to find out more about this. Thanks for indulging me...


----------



## Ken.F




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *OTAhead*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15360#post_23261754
> 
> 
> Where can I go to find out more about this.


The FCC website .


----------



## masheen

Hello all!


I've been looking through this site for a couple of weeks now. I must say I'm quite impressed with the wealth of knowledge and helpfulness and politeness of the members here. I read back a year in this thread alone. In addition, there are reference links offered to other posts which in turn lead to further research. I thought I was never going to get through everything, but I now have a better understanding of the terminology and believe I am ready to get some advice.


Like others, I came here with the intent of doing away with cable for obvious reasons. Of course, who wouldn't mind an attic install under the right conditions, but I'm going with a roof mounted unit. With that said, here is my TV Fool report based on my exact coordinates and a 25' height.


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1ddafef280218c 



I played with a +/- 5' height variance and didn't notice much of a change, but I'm no expert at deciphering all of the given information. With the exception of WSKY-TV (RC 9) at over 44 miles away, all of the stations I'm after are LOS. At 30', it would also become LOS. This is a station I wouldn't mind receiving. It is one of three VHF channels over a 13 degree angular spread (RC 7 and 13 are the others).


So based on my reading, I've seen two or three antennas recommended over the last year by various folks on the forum. Looking at other reports similar to mine, I'm guessing I may need the good old RCA ANT751R.


Regarding mast material: If the antenna mast were made out of a non conductive material, there wouldn't be a need to ground it, only the antenna itself via a grounding block. Maybe I missed it somewhere, but there must be a reason why masts aren't constructed with non conductive materials. Just curious...



Thanks much in advance for the help!!










Bob


----------



## gregzoll

Only thing about using Schedule 40 or 80, instead of a steel mast pipe, is that you need to make sure that it is uv resistant. I would put in a piece of pressure treated inside, to help support, or slip in emt, and still ground the antenna & mount.


With your range, probably could go with the same setup I have. I am using the Antennas Direct DB8 for UHF, and the Antennacraft® Y5713 60" Cut-to-Band HDTV Antenna, with a UHF/VHF Splitter/Combiner between the two, and the Channel Master 7778 Pre-amp. Even on a night like tonight with rain storms, I am still getting 80's for our PBS station that is around 12 miles away, the opposite direction that the face of the antenna is, and in the mid to high 80's for our CW station at around 50 miles away.


It took me some tweaking, which I actually ended up using a Winegard RFL-342 SensarPro Signal strength meter that I put in a kit box, and powered with a 12vDC 500mA to get the best signal. Worked out better than the signal meter on our Panny Plasma, and got it dialed in really great at the best signal.


----------



## holl_ands

ANT751 without a Preamp should work just fine in your location.


Metal Masts are used for a few important reasons:


1. It's lighter, stronger, longer lasting, survives severe weather, usually lower cost and requires no periodic maintenance like wood, PVC or fiberglass.


2. When wind passes over an antenna, a static charge builds up (like shuffling your feet over carpet). Unfortunately, SOME Balun Transformers (nearly ALL INDOOR Baluns and even some OUTDOOR Baluns) do NOT have a Direct Current path between the 300-ohm leads and the 75-ohm shield wires, so this static charge CAN NOT be dissipated, which can in turn ATTRACT lightning. Also, when the static electricity voltage exceeds the breakdown voltage between the 300-ohm windings and the 75-ohm windings, it will end up being momentarily (and periodically) applied to your equipment as it is dissipated across the "Ground Block" spark-gap device (mandatory NEC requirement when coax enters the structure). Hence the need to ground the antenna mast which is nearly always connected to at least some part of the antenna.


3. If you DO use an OUTDOOR Balun Transformer that has a Direct Current path between the windings (e.g. Channel Master, RCA VH101N and a few others), the situation is a bit better, since static electricity is being CONSTANTLY drained to ground via the coax shield. HOWEVER, in the rare event of a direct lightning strike, the only path to ground would be along the coax to the Ground Block and thence to actual GROUND that is hopefully a short distance away. Most of the Coax to Ground path will be turned to aluminized vapor that hopefully facilitates directing the lightning OUTSIDE the building, rather than THRU it. However, due to the fragility of the Coax and the proximity to the structure, it isn't a very reliable safety plan, since the coax will break away. When a metal mast is used, the much larger wire size and hopefully shorter path to ground (on the average), greatly reduces the likelihood of severe structure damage.


I MIGHT have a Philips OUTDOOR Balun in my spare parts drawers that I could also test (unless they're all in service)....but I don't even KNOW where THAT spare parts drawer is....had a slab leak that required running new water lines from the heater and a beautiful new LR/DR/KIT floating engineered wood floor to replace the 30+ yo Oak Parquet that was ruined in the DR. Since I had to move all of my papers, storage cabinets & electronics out of the Fam/CPU Rm, it was time to recarpet that room, scrape off popcorn ceilings & paint all of the drywall patches throughout the house. Last 6-wks we've been in upheaval....but fiberglass sheet floors for both Bathrooms should be here soonish...


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *masheen*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15360#post_23276579
> 
> 
> Regarding mast material: If the antenna mast were made out of a non conductive material, there wouldn't be a need to ground it, only the antenna itself via a grounding block. Maybe I missed it somewhere, but there must be a reason why masts aren't constructed with non conductive materials. Just curious...



I don't think there's any point to using a non-conductive mast because you still have coax running down.


Grounding is to bleed off static build-up and protect against induced currents from nearby lightning strikes. It won't protect your system against a direct strike. If you take a direct strike you'll be replacing everything. My antennas are high up on a tower which is grounded but I disconnect everything when we have a thunderstorm to be extra safe.


I think there is a pretty good chance you'll be able to receive WSKY at 44 miles but you'll likely see more signal variation than with any of the close by stations. You'll probably see no variation on the LOS stations.


----------



## masheen

Makes sense to me! I'll definitely go with a standard mount and utilize the proper grounding methods. I decided to try the RCA ANT751R since I can get a pretty good deal on it. I'll certainly report my results once everything is set up.


Sorry to hear about your water leak holl_ands! No fun I'm sure.










Thanks for the input guys and giving me a cipher on my TV Fool report Chuck! You all are the reason this site is what it is!!


----------



## hidesertforester

I live in Lacey, Washington State, which is near the state capitol of Olympia. Here's my TVfool:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1ddaf78697886d 


I'm working with the 91XG antenna for UHF and the Y10-7-13 for VHF. My research indicated these were the best for difficult locations like mine. I'm combining the signals with a UVSJ and feeding through a CM7777 preamp . My cable run is 50 ft. I'm dealing with numerous coniferous and broadleaf trees in the direction of the desired stations.


The stations I really want are PBS (27), Fox (13), ION (33), and CBS (51). I'd like to get ABC and NBC but alas, it is not to be. I'm stacking the VHF antenna above the UHF on the same mast. After moving the mast all over the roof and checking the signal I've identified two locations on the roof when the signals are the strongest. I'll call them location "A" and location "B". Unfortunately each location has a problem. Location A gets a stong signal on the one VHF station (Fox 13) and decent signals on 2 UHF stations but no signal on the PBS station. Location B gets a strong signal on the PBS station and ION, a marginal signal on CBS and no signal on Fox. I can easily see that the best locations correspond to gaps in the trees in the directions of the stations.


My question is: what if I kept the stacked array of VHF and UHF at location A and added another UHF antenna at location B just to get PBS? How would I combine the feed?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hidesertforester*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15360#post_23302470
> 
> 
> My question is: what if I kept the stacked array of VHF and UHF at location A and added another UHF antenna at location B just to get PBS? How would I combine the feed?



Use separate feedlines with an A/B switch in the house. You cannot just connect the two antennas together for the channels you want without an elaborate and expensive filter system.


Any chance you could have someone top one of the pine trees and put your antenna on the top? I have have a friend who has done this. Its the only way he can receive UHF from his location.


----------



## hidesertforester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15360#post_23303485
> 
> 
> Use separate feedlines with an A/B switch in the house. You cannot just connect the two antennas together for the channels you want without an elaborate and expensive filter system.
> 
> 
> Any chance you could have someone top one of the pine trees and put your antenna on the top? I have have a friend who has done this. Its the only way he can receive UHF from his location.



Okay, that's what I was afraid of. Putting the antennas up a tree would be an expensive proposition and as a retired professional forester I know that topping a tree always compromises it's long-term health. My objective is just to get my HD channels permanently. I know Comcast is going to eventually encrypt the ones I get in the clear currently.


I'm going to try a compromise solution by separating my antennas, keeping the VHF in it's optimum location and moving the UHF to see if I can get a decent stable reception on the remaining channels. That way I can still feed everything through the CM7777.


----------



## ctdish

The signals is looking at are pretty strong but they come from different directions. I would be very surprised that any of the UHF stations would be a problem with the antenna aimed at them. Also the preamp may be doing more harm than good in this strong signal situation.

The 91XG has a very sharp beamwidth so a rotator may be in order to receive from multiple directions. TV antennas usually work better with the UHF one above the VHF antenna. A CM4221 would probably be a better antenna to try if you don't want a rotator.

John


----------



## hidesertforester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15360#post_23303690
> 
> 
> The signals is looking at are pretty strong but they come from different directions. I would be very surprised that any of the UHF stations would be a problem with the antenna aimed at them. Also the preamp may be doing more harm than good in this strong signal situation.
> 
> The 91XG has a very sharp beamwidth so a rotator may be in order to receive from multiple directions. TV antennas usually work better with the UHF one above the VHF antenna. A CM4221 would probably be a better antenna to try if you don't want a rotator.
> 
> John



My local trees are the problem, John. I have no doubt I could get most of the Seattle stations if I didn't have trees in the way. I did try without the preamp. The preamp gets me CBS on 51. Without it I don't get it. I also get ABC with it but with a lot of breakup. I've tried rotating the antennas and it doesn't help. I have to move to a different location on the roof to get through the few gaps in the trees.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hidesertforester*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15360#post_23303825
> 
> 
> My local trees are the problem, John. I have no doubt I could get most of the Seattle stations if I didn't have trees in the way. I did try without the preamp. The preamp gets me CBS on 51. Without it I don't get it. I also get ABC with it but with a lot of breakup. I've tried rotating the antennas and it doesn't help. I have to move to a different location on the roof to get through the few gaps in the trees.



A UHF stacked bowtie array will probably get you the signal you want, on UHF. Such an antenna is really good at collecting signals that have bent through trees. The one you are using is quite good when there are no obstructions, but clearly you do have some.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15360#post_23304700
> 
> 
> A UHF stacked bowtie array will probably get you the signal you want, on UHF. Such an antenna is really good at collecting signals that have bent through trees. The one you are using is quite good when there are no obstructions, but clearly you do have some.



There's no magic to the stacked bowtie compared to the yagi type (91XG) so there's no reason to think it'll perform better. Here's an illustration of what trees do to signals.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html 


The 91XG has the best pattern of any commercial wideband antenna I know of. Rejection of signals from directions other than the main path can sometimes be more important than the gain.


----------



## retiredengineer

At my location, I do not have LOS so I probably have non-uniform fields as defined in the hdtvprimer website you cited. When I used an old CM4228 UHF antenna (8 bay), I could not find a sweet spot that gave reliable reception on all the stations I wanted to watch. The ones I could get were about medium quality. I switched to a CM4221 antenna (4 stacked bowties) and I got all the high power channels from Mt. Wilson with high signal quality. My experience may be unique but so far no reception problems, rain, wind or shine.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15360#post_23305472
> 
> 
> There's no magic to the stacked bowtie compared to the yagi type (91XG) so there's no reason to think it'll perform better. Here's an illustration of what trees do to signals.
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html
> 
> 
> The 91XG has the best pattern of any commercial wideband antenna I know of. Rejection of signals from directions other than the main path can sometimes be more important than the gain.



I was not suggesting magic.. I would not question that the 91XG does very well when it can "see": a signal.. At the proper height and direction for any given signal it certainly would do better than stacked bowties. But, if there is more than one signal to be received and those signals might be bending some, then the optimized height and direction for one signal might not be effective for others,.


I will fully agree that rejection of unwanted RF is a significant ideal. A yagi type antenna will "reject" much that is outside its narrow reception beam. In the case we are discussing, that antenna might also be rejecting some wanted signal.. If there were a procedure for correcting the height and direction of a very directional antenna for each desired signal, that antenna would be a first choice, If that is not practical, and no one fixed antenna position is satisfactory,. then another solution will be needed.


----------



## hidesertforester

Well plan B worked. I found a compromise position for the UHF antenna halfway between "A" and "B" where I get all my desired UHF stations. The VHF antenna is still at location A to get the one VHF station.


I found out something about the UVSJ though: When the two antennas were on the same mast and connected to the UVSJ with 2 foot cables it worked fine. When the antennas were separated, however, and connected with longer cables it did not. Fortunately the VHF signal is strong. It is only for the one weak UHF station that I need the preamp. I'll just run a second unamplified cable from down to the TV and use a A/B switch.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15360#post_23306309
> 
> 
> I was not suggesting magic.. I would not question that the 91XG does very well when it can "see": a signal..
> 
> 
> A yagi type antenna will "reject" much that is outside its narrow reception beam. In the case we are discussing, that antenna might also be rejecting some wanted signal.



No, that's impossible. The 3 dB beamwidth of a 91XG at channel 50 is +/- 12.5 degrees. See:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html 


If a signal at UHF has to refract (bend) anything near 12.5 degrees to reach the antenna there won't be any signal left. Even a fraction of 1 degree causes large signal attenuation. I have a situation here where my house is located behind a hill in the direction of the transmitters and the angle is about 10 degrees. No signal reaches an antenna at my house. My antennas are near the top of the hill to clear it and I still have a 2 edge path with each edge


----------



## retiredengineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hidesertforester*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15390#post_23306718
> 
> 
> Well plan B worked. I found a compromise position for the UHF antenna halfway between "A" and "B" where I get all my desired UHF stations. The VHF antenna is still at location A to get the one VHF station.



According to your TVFool report, some of the stations you are receiving have to propagate over water. Water is a very good reflector of TV signals so you are actually receiving two signals, the direct and reflected. Depending on atmospheric conditions, they can add in phase (which is good) or subtract (which is bad.)


The compromised position may work today but don't be surprised if you lose the stations in the future. The bad news is there is no easy way to mitigate this. It is the law of physics.


One impractical recommendation I seen is to install two antenna at different heights, so that if one antenna stops receiving you switch to the other.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *retiredengineer*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15360#post_23305569
> 
> 
> At my location, I do not have LOS so I probably have non-uniform fields as defined in the hdtvprimer website you cited. When I used an old CM4228 UHF antenna (8 bay), I could not find a sweet spot that gave reliable reception on all the stations I wanted to watch. The ones I could get were about medium quality. I switched to a CM4221 antenna (4 stacked bowties) and I got all the high power channels from Mt. Wilson with high signal quality. My experience may be unique but so far no reception problems, rain, wind or shine.



Without being able to analyze the signals it's very hard to determine why one antenna works and another doesn't. Almost everyone is calling Signal Quality signal strength which is misleading. The two often have little to do with each other.


I've had several opportunities to connect my spectrum analyzer to antennas at locations where there were reception problems. I commonly see some really ugly non-flat signals at widely varying signal strengths. Unfortunately the analyzer alone is not enough to predict the Signal Quality. But between the analyzer and the TV Signal Quality number it's usually possible to figure out what the reception problem is.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *retiredengineer*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15390#post_23307561
> 
> 
> According to your TVFool report, some of the stations you are receiving have to propagate over water. Water is a very good reflector of TV signals so you are actually receiving two signals, the direct and reflected. Depending on atmospheric conditions, they can add in phase (which is good) or subtract (which is bad.)



If he's lucky there will be much more attenuation of the water reflected signal due to ground clutter and it won't be a problem.



> Quote:
> One impractical recommendation I seen is to install two antenna at different heights, so that if one antenna stops receiving you switch to the other.



One of our local broadcasters was having fades on their microwave link from the studio to the transmitter tower (20 miles?) from temperature inversions. They ended up with antennas installed on the tower hundreds of feet apart and that solved the problem. Both receive locations have fade problems but never both at the same time. I'm dubious that installing antennas a few feet apart would completely solve the problem.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15390#post_23307532
> 
> 
> No, that's impossible. The 3 dB beamwidth of a 91XG at channel 50 is +/- 12.5 degrees. See:
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html
> 
> 
> If a signal at UHF has to refract (bend) anything near 12.5 degrees to reach the antenna there won't be any signal left. Even a fraction of 1 degree causes large signal attenuation. I have a situation here where my house is located behind a hill in the direction of the transmitters and the angle is about 10 degrees. No signal reaches an antenna at my house. My antennas are near the top of the hill to clear it and I still have a 2 edge path with each edge
> 
> 
> OK, if "reject" is unacceptable, I will use "not see", or "does not deliver a signal that will decode".
> 
> Despite 75 odd years of study and definition of TV RF signals, our understanding of such is still rudimentary..
> 
> Our current theory is good, but only partially predictive of actual and practical results.
> 
> I appreciate the discussions as a way of improving the practical..


----------



## hidesertforester




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15390#post_23307532
> 
> 
> No, that's impossible. The 3 dB beamwidth of a 91XG at channel 50 is +/- 12.5 degrees. See:
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html
> 
> 
> If a signal at UHF has to refract (bend) anything near 12.5 degrees to reach the antenna there won't be any signal left. Even a fraction of 1 degree causes large signal attenuation. I have a situation here where my house is located behind a hill in the direction of the transmitters and the angle is about 10 degrees. No signal reaches an antenna at my house. My antennas are near the top of the hill to clear it and I still have a 2 edge path with each edge
> 
> 
> Note that in my case I am receiving UHF stations well at 359, 25, 35 and 48 degrees true. The gap in the trees is probably at 35 to 40 degrees and that is what the antenna is aimed at. I am curious why I get KUNS-TV which appears to be on Queen Anne Hill in Seattle along with KING and KOMO.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hidesertforester*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15390#post_23308297
> 
> 
> Note that in my case I am receiving UHF stations well at 359, 25, 35 and 48 degrees true. The gap in the trees is probably at 35 to 40 degrees and that is what the antenna is aimed at. I am curious why I get KUNS-TV which appears to be on Queen Anne Hill in Seattle along with KING and KOMO.



There's a similar situation at the home of a friend of mine where one UHF station makes it through the pine trees with the antenna off pointed a bit. It's not where the signal is strongest but where it happens to have the least multipath. There's a lot of reflections going on through a stand of pines. At my house I can receive some stations pointed at the reflections off of mountains a few miles east of me but the SNRs are low even though the signals are fairly strong. Sometimes reflections work but that's not the same thing as refraction. Consider yourself lucky if you receive all the stations you want through the trees. Most people are not lucky. The question is will your reception be stable in the long term or will you have drop out periods?


Below is a spectrum analyzer image showing KOVR with the antenna pointed at it (brighter flat trace) and pointed at my reflections (dimmer ragged trace). Your signals probably look something like the ragged trace.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15390#post_23308267
> 
> 
> Our current theory is good, but only partially predictive of actual and practical results..



True and that's because the models can't take into account every tree, bush, building and detailed terrain shape that would be necessary for an accurate prediction especially at UHF. This is why TVFool is pretty accurate for LOS stations but can be wildly inaccurate for 1 and 2 edge signals. This makes it fun if you're experimenting with reception but frustrating if you just care about watching TV.


----------



## kenglish

I love to see posts from Calaveras....

I've always said, "Every home needs two things, an air compressor and a Spectrum Analyzer".


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kenglish*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15390#post_23314110
> 
> 
> ...Every home needs... a Spectrum Analyzer".



I can't count the number of times I've furnished links to used AVCOM spectrum analyzers on eBay that sold for a couple hundred dollars. Many people here spend what must be thousands of dollars worth of their time arbitrarily moving antennas around while often obtaining unsatisfactory results from doing so, yet won't consider spending a couple hundred bucks buying the piece of test gear that will enable them to fully enjoy the benefits of their thousand dollar TV system.


----------



## HoustonPerson

Does someone make an ATSC signal meter antenna aiming tool that you can select individual RF.


I am in the Dallas area and having a problem mostly with 4-1 RF 35. Some type of weird edge popping going on; from a very large hill and or buildings on the hill. Only 25 miles from the farm, and all stations within 4-5 degrees on the compass.


When the weather is all socked in heavy clouds and/or foggy the station is 100% solid. When the skies are crystal clear (and dry) the dropouts to zero can be several times per minute. That is major fluctuations in signal strength for 4-1.


----------



## SFischer1


Hi,

 

My antenna installer used a box that was ~ $600.00.

 

This is priced at $20 and is stocked at Newark and MCM (I have purchased many items from MCM in OHIO). I have a Tenma Digital DVM and like it a lot.

 



 

 

Digital TV Signal Strength Finder MCM Part #: 72-10855  |  Ten 

 

ma Part #: DF-200 

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/72-10855

 

 

I would like to say more, but I cannot even read the lights on the picture.

 

His $600 box had the same input but many controls and LCD readout screen and appeared to be able to select RF channels and provide many paramrters

 

$20 is cheap for someone to try.

 

I myself would use a HDHomeRUN Tuner and a laptop used by a second person as RF channels can be selected and it's great tuner would be a great addition to an HTPC. (It has two tuners allowing two antennas, ethernet output.)

 



 

*Click for larger view. Station is at ~ 97 miles.*

 

*There are many laptop USB tuners, one may have RF channel selection.*

 

*Antenna is separate and it's quality will affect the process.*

 

*With the HDHR Tech models you might get better numbers, I have not looked at them.*

 

SHF


----------



## holl_ands

MCM DF-200 (and other similar cheap antenna "pointer" meters) measure WIDE-BAND signal levels, so the STRONGEST signal will drive the display lights...which might be ALL of the broadcast towers if they are co-located on a mountaintop....or might be a local, perhaps low-power, broadcaster....or perhaps the Harmonics of a nearby FM tower...or even a nearby 4G-LTE Cellphone tower.


Emitor DigiAirPro ($300 RED Box) will display individual channel signal levels.....or use a semi-calibrated CECB Converter Box:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15150#post_22704405 


Or use TSReader Lite (FREE version) with a compatible OTA Tuner...scroll down to Terrestrial (ATSC), list is incomplete:
http://www.tsreader.com/tsreader/hardware.html


----------



## SFischer1


Hi,

 

That's what I thought about the Ten ma Part #: DF-200 but I could find nothing more with my searches. 

 

 


> Quote:
> 
> Or use TSReader Lite (FREE version) with a compatible OTA Tuner...scroll down to Terrestrial (ATSC), list is incomplete:
> http://www.tsreader.com/tsreader/hardware.html


 

Worked as suggested, but it appears that a full scan might be necessary initially. 

 

 

The HDHR solution I suggested using a Wireless router would allow direct RF channel selection with your laptop on top of your house and you can see the results of rotating / moving the antenna live, TSReader shows numbers that are small, thus hard to read. 

 

But TSReader with two persons produces more data, perhaps even better data than my antenna installers $600 box which appeared to  need lots of interaction and selection of what to display. 

 

I ran both the HDHR GUI and TSReader Lite using wireless to connect to my HDHR tuners. 

 

SHF


----------



## Vidop

I believe this product is out of production. But, you can still find it on eBay. I bought one several years ago and it works great.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIGIAIR-DB-VHF-UHF-SPECTRUM-ANALYSER-/140947379061?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item20d11e5375


----------



## Satcom15




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kenglish*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15390#post_23314110
> 
> 
> I love to see posts from Calaveras....
> 
> I've always said, "Every home needs two things, an air compressor and a Spectrum Analyzer".



I agree every home needs a spec an. I see where ARRL reviewed a relatively inexpensive spectrum analyzer by Rigol. Gave it a pretty good score. In the ~$1.2 k range


----------



## HoustonPerson

Don’t want to wait for Winegard to open on Tuesday.


Question on Cartridge to phasing lines on HD7697p.


There are 4 connectors inside the cartridge which snap on the phasing lines; however one of them for VHF is bent back to prevent contact (3 of 4 make positive contact; 1 for VHF and 2 for UHF). Is this because the phasing line encircles the boom all the way around to the back of the boom where the phasing lines are connected?


I am beginning to think it is supposed to be that way; since I have received two antennas and they both came the same way. Both boxes damaged badly.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HoustonPerson*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15390#post_23357407
> 
> 
> Don’t want to wait for Winegard to open on Tuesday.
> 
> 
> Question on Cartridge to phasing lines on HD7697p.
> 
> 
> There are 4 connectors inside the cartridge which snap on the phasing lines; however one of them for VHF is bent back to prevent contact (3 of 4 make positive contact; 1 for VHF and 2 for UHF). Is this because the phasing line encircles the boom all the way around to the back of the boom where the phasing lines are connected?
> 
> 
> I am beginning to think it is supposed to be that way; since I have received two antennas and they both came the same way. Both boxes damaged badly.



All 4 should make contact. If one is bent then straighten it out.


----------



## AntAltMike




----------



## HoustonPerson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15390#post_23357706
> 
> 
> All 4 should make contact. If one is bent then straighten it out.



Thanks


That is what I did for now; so that all 4 make contact.


Currently I have the antenna set up in a first floor bedroom as an experiment to see how it works, etc. If I ever get this project finished I will report back with a detailed report.


So far the HDTV primer http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ has been helpful in chasing down problems.


There are two major issues trying to overcome: Heavy dense forest with 100 foot plus tall trees in a low lying area and a very large hill close by with several buildings on the top. It appears that most of the reception issues are from the large trees. The trees (forest) start within about 40 foot of the antenna. The monster hill with buildings is about half a mile away. It is solid forest between here and the Hill.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HoustonPerson*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15390#post_23358284
> 
> 
> There are two major issues trying to overcome: Heavy dense forest with 100 foot plus tall trees in a low lying area and a very large hill close by with several buildings on the top. It appears that most of the reception issues are from the large trees. The trees (forest) start within about 40 foot of the antenna. The monster hill with buildings is about half a mile away. It is solid forest between here and the Hill.



This sounds rather hopeless. A half mile of forest and then a hill to go over? I'd be surprised if you receive much of anything unless you can get the antenna above the trees.


----------



## HoustonPerson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15390#post_23358508
> 
> 
> This sounds rather hopeless. A half mile of forest and then a hill to go over? I'd be surprised if you receive much of anything unless you can get the antenna above the trees.



Generally, I can get about 70 stations out of the 84 or so to choose from, using various set ups.


Unfortunately, so far I can only get say 8 of the 9 major stations at any one time. Seems there is always at least one station I loose when I gain another with a different set up and vice versa.


The goal of course is to get all the majors all the time no matter the conditions.


Best I can surmise from the HDTV primer this will be a hit or miss situation with all the trees and other stuff missing up the signal. It will be a trick to aim through the trees to get it done. The house is single story; even so with the chimney mount the antenna is about 27 feet above ground. That is still about 70 feet below the tops of the trees. The antenna inside the house is about 7 feet above ground and shoots under the forest canopy; at that position the antenna pulls in 4-1 FOX perfectly but not 68-1 ION. When on the roof the exact opposite is true. With the antenna on the roof it is aiming through the thickest part of the forest canopy.


So far the HD7697p is doing a little bit better at 7 foot inside with no pre amp, than the HD7694p on the roof with pre-amp. Without preamp on the roof I only get about 25 stations.


I would attempt an attic install, but there are two problems with that. It is only a 5/12 pitch, almost no space. The attic opening is only 12” by 20” that is hard to get an HD7697p through that. And this old house has a new roof that has the aluminum foil on the back side of the decking. None of that sounds very promising.


Once I get the HD7697p to the roof with the pre amp, I have 2 or 3 more options around the chimney; hopefully that will yield the results I want.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HoustonPerson*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15390#post_23359003
> 
> 
> Generally, I can get about 70 stations out of the 84 or so to choose from, using various set ups.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, so far I can only get say 8 of the 9 major stations at any one time. Seems there is always at least one station I loose when I gain another with a different set up and vice versa.
> 
> 
> The goal of course is to get all the majors all the time no matter the conditions.



I'm trying to understand your situation. You must be be pretty close to the transmitters to be receiving as many as you do. In my area where everyone is 50-60 miles from the transmitters no one receives UHF through the forest. 84 must be the number of sub channels. How many different stations are you trying to receive? Sounds like you can receive all but one in the best antenna location. You may have no choice but to have two antennas in different locations and switch between them.


Is your TVFool report posted somewhere?


----------



## HoustonPerson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15390#post_23360538
> 
> 
> I'm trying to understand your situation. You must be be pretty close to the transmitters to be receiving as many as you do. In my area where everyone is 50-60 miles from the transmitters no one receives UHF through the forest. 84 must be the number of sub channels. How many different stations are you trying to receive? Sounds like you can receive all but one in the best antenna location. You may have no choice but to have two antennas in different locations and switch between them.
> 
> 
> Is your TVFool report posted somewhere?



Generally, about 25 miles from the antenna farm. Is there a way to post a confidential TVFool report? Yes that includes the sub channels, actual RF's a lot less.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HoustonPerson*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15390#post_23360718
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a way to post a confidential TVFool report?


Hi,

 

All TVFool reports are reported with low location indicatations.

 

For most addresses zipcode is given, and only low Resolutation Lat. / Lon.

 

Even: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90

 

For your market see: http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php

 

Also see : http://www.rabbitears.info/oddsandends.php?request=grid

 

Not as good as what I have available, but Trip does a great job for the USA.

 

 


> Quote:
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF
> 
> My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
> Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.choisser.com/broadcast.html


 

SHF


----------



## HoustonPerson

Here is the TVFool report..

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1dda614a63520c 



Someone should make a cheap hand held TV that has a high quality signal strength, SNR, and bit correction meters. That way you could just sit of the roof, to locate and fine tune for the RF's you want. The wife on the cell phone really does not work.


Inside the house I have been able to fine tune the HD7697 in the first floor bedroom and lock in all the majors. I did lose some of the lower power stations like 18-1 and 20-1 because they are about 5 degrees to the left of the majors. Inside the house with the antenna I have the plasma with a signal meter that "repaints" every second (very easy to catch drop outs), two tuner TiVo with SNR - can report both tuners at the same time - seems to repaint every two seconds, and a old Sony DVR with a signal meter and a "word" rating (not percentage) for the SNR. Of course there is no way to carry that junk to the roof.


The plasma is nice because it paints so quick. It reads 0% to 100%; so if I have a station steady station at 90% that is ok; but if I have a station that flashes to 0% say every 15 seconds that is not ok. Any time that blue bar on the signal meter is floating up and down in big wild swings, then it is a problem.


----------



## retiredengineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HoustonPerson*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15390#post_23361570
> 
> 
> Here is the TVFool report..
> 
> 
> The plasma is nice because it paints so quick. It reads 0% to 100%; so if I have a station steady station at 90% that is ok; but if I have a station that flashes to 0% say every 15 seconds that is not ok. Any time that blue bar on the signal meter is floating up and down in big wild swings, then it is a problem.



That flashing to 0% every 15 seconds sounds like a multipath/reflection problem, maybe from the nearby hill but more likely from White Rock Lake. Water is a good reflector of TV signals so you are actually receiving two signals, a direct and reflected. Some TV channels are sensitive to these two signals causing wildly signal swings. The usually solution is to raise or lower their antenna to improve reception. Your statement that reception of 4.1 varies between the chimney mount and indoor mount so that seems to support my hypothesis. You could try intermediate heights to see if you could find the sweet spot that gets you all the stations you want.


----------



## HoustonPerson

There is a good deal of truth to your statements. Also as a very simplistic overview with the current roof mount antenna I get a more steady signal with heavy fog and/or heavy overcast days versus when the sun comes out and I start to lose the 4-1 (rf 35) signal (too unstable).


One of the things I really like about the two tuner TiVo is the diagnostic page. Since this morning using the HD7697p inside the house, I have one tuner on 4-1 and the other on 68-1. The 4-1 is absolutely rock solid and steady (corrected bits 2 & uncorrected 0) and currently the 68-1 (corrected bits 100 & uncorrected 0) is good but it does not stay steady 24 hours a day. Those readings are after about 15 minutes. In the late afternoon in bright sunshine the uncorrected bits on 68-1 can get quite high and you see the picture break up. Those diagnostic pages also give signal strength and SNR. Generally when the SNR falls below 20db, I will often see the picture break up.


Does someone make a “cheap” USB tuner stick with signal meter data? Strength, SNR, bits corrected, bits uncorrected, and perhaps put 4 to 6 channels on the screen at the same time? I know there is the DigiPro gizmo for $300 but I do not want to spend that much. That data in your hand while on the roof, could make this so much easier.


Yes, the height (and sometimes tilt) change can make a significant difference. The HDTV primer pages goes into a good deal of detail regarding “height” in their discussion on Trees – that is actually lowering the antenna etc. With the antenna inside the house it bypasses the forest (under the canopy) until about 500 feet away. The major part of the canopy starts about 14 feet above ground. From about 14 feet to 100 feet high it is solid trees. On the roof it hits a major part of the forest about 40 feet in front of the antenna.


I am so tempted to fold up the antenna and try this in the attic. That would place it about 12 feet above ground, but may also line it up directly with three close tree trucks with the first one just about 25 feet away. Plus there is the aluminum foil on the decking. With a 5/12 pitch, I wonder just how much would be lost with the foil? Should I just forget that option?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HoustonPerson*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15390#post_23361570
> 
> 
> Here is the TVFool report..
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d1dda614a63520c
> 
> 
> 
> Someone should make a cheap hand held TV that has a high quality signal strength, SNR, and bit correction meters. That way you could just sit of the roof, to locate and fine tune for the RF's you want. The wife on the cell phone really does not work.
> 
> 
> Inside the house I have been able to fine tune the HD7697 in the first floor bedroom and lock in all the majors. I did lose some of the lower power stations like 18-1 and 20-1 because they are about 5 degrees to the left of the majors. Inside the house with the antenna I have the plasma with a signal meter that "repaints" every second (very easy to catch drop outs), two tuner TiVo with SNR - can report both tuners at the same time - seems to repaint every two seconds, and a old Sony DVR with a signal meter and a "word" rating (not percentage) for the SNR. Of course there is no way to carry that junk to the roof.
> 
> 
> The plasma is nice because it paints so quick. It reads 0% to 100%; so if I have a station steady station at 90% that is ok; but if I have a station that flashes to 0% say every 15 seconds that is not ok. Any time that blue bar on the signal meter is floating up and down in big wild swings, then it is a problem.



I see from your TVFool report that you do not have a hill in the way and you have a long list of strong signals. The unstable signal quality on some stations is most likely caused by moving trees. It doesn't take much wind to cause the problem. I saw this problem at my cousin's house with the antenna looking through a stand of eucalyptus trees. Most stations were fairly stable but one changed wildly and was unwatchable. The stations were 17 miles away and LOS except for the trees.


I have a MyGoTV 7" portable TV that has a very good tuner in it. Of course it's no longer made but perhaps you could find a used one. It does work great for locating an antenna.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HoustonPerson*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15390#post_23363382
> 
> 
> In the late afternoon in bright sunshine the uncorrected bits on 68-1 can get quite high and you see the picture break up.



This is more evidence for the wind blowing the trees around theory. Most places have more wind in the afternoon than at night or in the morning due to daytime heating.


----------



## HoustonPerson

I do not know why TV Fool does not show the hill, but it is there with about 50 houses 2-3 stories on top of it. Our house at ground level is just about 10’ above White Rock Lake. The hill is about 100-150 feet tall – above the lake.


Yes I do believe it is a tree problem for the most part and particularly the trees closest to the antenna. I can only guess about 90% trees and 10% the hill with houses.


If I am able to make it work it looks like it will be by trial and error to find the sweet spot if there is one.


----------



## holl_ands

TVFool (like many Propagation Prediction Programs), uses the SRTM topographical data base which released a high-accuracy 1-arc-sec product: SRTM-1 (30-m position, 5-20-m height resolution/accuracy) for some parts of the earth (i.e. USA) and 3-arc-sec product SRTM-3 (90-m position) for the rest of the world, who did not want public release of the more precise product. So the radar map is very fuzzy, averaging heights over areas the size of a sports arena (USA)....or entire neighborhoods (rest of the World):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuttle_Radar_Topography_Mission


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HoustonPerson*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15420#post_23365445
> 
> 
> I do not know why TV Fool does not show the hill, but it is there with about 50 houses 2-3 stories on top of it. Our house at ground level is just about 10’ above White Rock Lake. The hill is about 100-150 feet tall – above the lake.
> 
> 
> ...


Hi,

 

The hill is hard to see, even on my "DeLorme Topo North America 9.0" which I needed to start up for another purpose.

 

PM me (DO NOT POST) your exact Lat. / Lon. and I will look closer.

 

mailto:[email protected] I can then return maps with your exact location, which might matter.

 

I can then generate a more detailed contour of the path to one station for you than clicking on the station in the normal TVFool page.

 

On the Google Map click "*Show lines pointing to each transmitter*" and Terrian. Then click on the station you are interested below

 

SHF


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HoustonPerson*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15420#post_23365445
> 
> 
> I do not know why TV Fool does not show the hill, but it is there with about 50 houses 2-3 stories on top of it. Our house at ground level is just about 10’ above White Rock Lake. The hill is about 100-150 feet tall – above the lake.
> 
> 
> Yes I do believe it is a tree problem for the most part and particularly the trees closest to the antenna. I can only guess about 90% trees and 10% the hill with houses.
> 
> 
> If I am able to make it work it looks like it will be by trial and error to find the sweet spot if there is one.



I used Google Earth and the WFAA transmitter tower to find where 42 degrees at 23.8 miles is. I found your lake, the hill and your approximate location. Using Google Earth elevation numbers you are at 468' (10' above the lake) and the highest point on the hill is 545'. The hill is 77' higher than you are. The apparent angle of the hill is 0.25 degrees at 3.4 miles from you.


The WFAA antenna is 1841' higher than you but at 23.8 miles it has an apparent drop in elevation of 378' due to the curvature of the Earth. (There's a formula for this.) So the antenna height is equivalent to 1463 feet higher than you over a flat surface. From your location that's an elevation of 0.67 degrees.


WFAA is indeed LOS to your location as I assume the other stations are too. If your trees weren't there you'd be able to see the top of the tower with a telescope.


Any of those 100' trees on your property? If so, hire a tree trimmer to climb the tree, cut a few branches off near the top and end mount a small VHF/UHF antenna. No preamp or rotor required. Problem solved!


----------



## HoustonPerson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15420#post_23366572
> 
> 
> I used Google Earth and the WFAA transmitter tower to find where 42 degrees at 23.8 miles is. I found your lake, the hill and your approximate location. Using Google Earth elevation numbers you are at 468' (10' above the lake) and the highest point on the hill is 545'. The hill is 77' higher than you are. The apparent angle of the hill is 0.25 degrees at 3.4 miles from you.
> 
> 
> The WFAA antenna is 1841' higher than you but at 23.8 miles it has an apparent drop in elevation of 378' due to the curvature of the Earth. (There's a formula for this.) So the antenna height is equivalent to 1463 feet higher than you over a flat surface. From your location that's an elevation of 0.67 degrees.
> 
> 
> WFAA is indeed LOS to your location as I assume the other stations are too. If your trees weren't there you'd be able to see the top of the tower with a telescope.
> 
> 
> Any of those 100' trees on your property? If so, hire a tree trimmer to climb the tree, cut a few branches off near the top and end mount a small VHF/UHF antenna. No preamp or rotor required. Problem solved!



Thanks Calaveras, your figures almost match my "eye" guess work. I do think the hill is a lot closer and it sure looks a lot taller. When I attempted the Google street view, it looks like those pictures are about 1-2 years old. One of the "glass" 3 story houses on top of the hill is under construction. There is a large 2 story "metal" house (all sheet metal - super modern wild thing) about a 100 feet from that glass house that is now under construction that Google does not show.


I am almost certain the hill is less than one mile from the house, so I will measure it with the car. I am referring to the base of the hill. Going from the base of the hill to the top is about 1/10 mile. The ground does go downhill from the house to the base of the hill, so perhaps my brain did not calculate for that.


Unfortunately, the trees are not on my property. Also that last group of tree trimmers used by the owners were "afraid" to go above 50' in the trees, pretty much useless. Also, the last 30' of the limbs will not support the weight of a man. The company they used were not professionals and did not have the equipment to do the job. The owner of the property will not make further adjustments. All the remaining trees are on City of Dallas property between here and the lake; they have like rules or something.



Since this is all experimental and the current HD7694p with pre amp is coming "off" the roof; I may be able to do some more experiments with and without the preamp. May try the pre amp on the current inside antenna, may try the smaller antenna in the attic, with and without preamp. It would a lot easier to get into the attic and I could determine what effect the aluminum foil heat barrier has on the antenna.


I still think that "if" there is a solution to this it will be the HD7697p on the roof at a different position than the current antenna. The width of the chimney will allow for adjustment of about 32" in width (left to right), and the height could be lowered by up to 36" as long as it does not interfere with the chimney cap.


Side note: This house has a two foot wide aluminum soffit the full perimeter of the house. The current inside HD7697p currently is aimed through that aluminum as best as I can tell. Perhaps the aluminum heat barrier would be no worse than that?


----------



## HoustonPerson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15420#post_23365763
> 
> 
> TVFool (like many Propagation Prediction Programs), uses the SRTM topographical data base which released a high-accuracy 1-arc-sec product: SRTM-1 (30-m position, 5-20-m height resolution/accuracy) for some parts of the earth (i.e. USA) and 3-arc-sec product SRTM-3 (90-m position) for the rest of the world, who did not want public release of the more precise product. So the radar map is very fuzzy, averaging heights over areas the size of a sports arena (USA)....or entire neighborhoods (rest of the World):
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuttle_Radar_Topography_Mission



I believe this is also true. Not only surrounding by giant trees but I live in the deep fuzzy area not really accounted for in the maps.


Issue as it now stands:


95% trees

2.5% Big Hill with trees and houses

2.5% The unknown Deep Fuzzy


----------



## retiredengineer

If it is true that when one of your two antennas picks up a signal, the other doesn't. If so have you consider installing a RF switch to select the working antenna. I know it is a PITA but at least you can watch all the stations you want to receive.


----------



## HoustonPerson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *retiredengineer*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15420#post_23373446
> 
> 
> If it is true that when one of your two antennas picks up a signal, the other doesn't. If so have you consider installing a RF switch to select the working antenna. I know it is a PITA but at least you can watch all the stations you want to receive.



Quick post:


We are limited to “one” antenna for a couple of reasons. All programs are time shifted via TiVo and limited space (locations) available on the property for the antenna.


Essentially, we should be LOS for all stations. We are not because of the extreme closeness of the large trees.


Currently I pretty well know what are the problems are. The next issue is deciding a course of action to take to see if the problems can be solved. It is entirely possible that even if unlimited amounts of time and money were available there still be no solution.


----------



## dinosaur1

I tried Roadrunner in the past,but their speed is very slow. I currently have AT&T uVerse 12 mb and TV which is great but very pricey. If I cancel the TV then the internet price goes way up.


I have 2 TVs in 2 bedrooms and one in our basement rec room. Our association doesn't allow outdoor antennas. My son loves watching NBA games otherwise we watch basic tv.


What are some good options?


----------



## Buckeye911




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dinosaur1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15420#post_23379448
> 
> 
> I tried Roadrunner in the past,but their speed is very slow. I currently have AT&T uVerse 12 mb and TV which is great but very pricey. If I cancel the TV then the internet price goes way up.
> 
> 
> I have 2 TVs in 2 bedrooms and one in our basement rec room. Our association doesn't allow outdoor antennas. My son loves watching NBA games otherwise we watch basic tv.
> 
> 
> What are some good options?



Your association cannot legally prevent you from erecting an outdoor antenna or satellite dish, your right to do so is protected by federal law. You could put up an antenna and subscribe to the NBA package on Roku for your son (though local and nationally televised games are blacked out).
http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-reception-devices-rule


----------



## retiredengineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Buckeye911*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15420#post_23379741
> 
> 
> Your association cannot legally prevent you from erecting an outdoor antenna or satellite dish, your right to do so is protected by federal law. You could put up an antenna and subscribe to the NBA package on Roku for your son (though local and nationally televised games are blacked out).
> http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-reception-devices-rule



The only exception that allows the HOA to keep you off the roof is if the CC&R defines the roof as a common area. In this case you can use your balcony or patio area to mount the antenna/dish.


----------



## dinosaur1

The next question is what internet I should use. I use uVerse 12mb now but when I disconnect the tv....bingo the price skyrockets.


I was thinking of getting the mohu leaf and a roku box as well.


----------



## Buckeye911




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dinosaur1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15420#post_23380239
> 
> 
> The next question is what internet I should use. I use uVerse 12mb now but when I disconnect the tv....bingo the price skyrockets.
> 
> 
> I was thinking of getting the mohu leaf and a roku box as well.



The Mohu Ultimate and Roku work great for me. I also use TiVo.


----------



## dinosaur1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Buckeye911*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15420#post_23380361
> 
> 
> The Mohu Ultimate and Roku work great for me. I also use TiVo.



what type of internet do you use? do you ever get any buffering?


----------



## HoustonPerson




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15420#post_23366572
> 
> 
> ........ The apparent angle of the hill is 0.25 degrees at 3.4 miles from you.
> 
> 
> ....!



Ok, got a chance to get the actual mileage from the hill. It is .8 of a mile and that includes 7 left/right turns. That .8 is being liberal so realistically it is about 3/4 of a mile. Looking at Google maps from across the lake and actually standing on top of the hill it still looks to be about 100' tall to me. Add to that the houses and trees etc.


I do not know if that distance from the hill really affects anything or not regarding the angles etc.


Anyway its' all still a work in progress.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HoustonPerson*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15420#post_23389695
> 
> 
> Ok, got a chance to get the actual mileage from the hill. It is .8 of a mile and that includes 7 left/right turns. That .8 is being liberal so realistically it is about 3/4 of a mile. Looking at Google maps from across the lake and actually standing on top of the hill it still looks to be about 100' tall to me. Add to that the houses and trees etc.



I took another look at where you may be from the TVFool info and I think I was off and now see the hill you're talking about. Even if I had your precise location it wouldn't make any difference with the tree problem. Sometimes there is no practical solution to a reception problem. This may be your case. Good luck!


----------



## HoustonPerson

Digiair Pro ATSC


Has anyone had experience with it? Good product? Bad product? Etc


If you have not had experience with it, tell me what you think about it: Good, Bad, So So


In attempting to get information on the product I come up with mixed results. There are a couple of different “manuals” on the product, and different two page fact sheets on the internet (none are dated). To me there are conflicts between the fact sheets and the manual?


I have attempted to get facts from the maker in Sweden, but they have not been that helpful.


If I can get reasonably accurate SNR, BER, MER; that could be very helpful. I realize many meters use fuzzy math for MER


I have not found any reviews or video postings on this product.


----------



## HoustonPerson

Unbelievable


I just checked the factory web site and both the fact sheets and manual have been updated and now they match each other! Both completely replace what I downloaded on Monday of this week. Guess my emails to them hit a cord. LOL


Amazing


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: DigiairPro ATSC on the Swedish Emitor Website: http://www.emitor.se/prod_digiair_pro_atsc.htm 
http://www.emitor.se/index_htm_files/Digiair_Pro_ATSC_2013_2_ENG.pdf 


Note addition of menu displaying MER (Modulation Error Ratio) [i.e. Digital SNR....NOT Message Error Rate] which can be used to see if Antenna (etc) SWR is adversely limiting reception performance (using strong LOS paths only). MER is directly related to the EVM (Error Vector Modulation) measurement, which is found in Dr. Obed Bendov's papers re VSWR degradation to ATSC (in ADDITION to any Mis-Match Loss):
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1037779/evs-recommended-top-rated-dtv-indoor-uhf-vhf-set-top-antenna-review-round-up-guide/3210#post_23395940 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modulation_error_ratio 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_vector_magnitude 
http://www.ni.com/white-paper/3652/en 


As indicated in the User Guide, MER should be greater than 23 dB, which I'm going to presume is rms (vice peak), in agreement with ATSC Transmitter MINIMUM (27+ dB is preferred) Limit of 24 dB MER (rms) and 10 dB MER (peak), see pg 9:
http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/dl_downloads/dl_application/application_notes/7bm102/7BM102_1E.pdf 


PS: I've only used the Original DigiAir, which doesn't have any of the Digital analysis features. It works very well, but needed a Preamp to reach full sensitivity (presumably not an issue with new one) and used a specialized rechargeable battery that I always had to remember to recharge before use. The latest update uses 8 AA size rechargeable batteries, so I would recommend carrying an extra stick of spare alkaline AA's just in case....


----------



## HoustonPerson

holl_ands Thanks for the new links, they can add greatly to my learning experience.


I think the newest Digiair Pro ATSC can be a significant time saver in trying to solve the reception issues at my house (trying to pick up the signal through the forest - trees).


I am glad Emitor posted new updated information on the latest product.


I am assuming that the voltage selection 5 or 12 or 24 volts is to replace the "inserter" for an antenna that uses a pre-amp? I am hoping to do my testing both with and without the pre-amp?


I am a little disappointed you have to make your "own" emitor cable for "updates". They should either include that in the box OR better yet update the product so you have USB's on both ends of the cable. The use of 3.5 phono plug to serial to USB sure seems very "dated". But then again that is most likely a one time thing to do.


----------



## Vidop




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HoustonPerson*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15420#post_23399284
> 
> 
> Digiair Pro ATSC
> 
> 
> Has anyone had experience with it? Good product? Bad product? Etc
> 
> 
> If you have not had experience with it, tell me what you think about it: Good, Bad, So So
> 
> 
> In attempting to get information on the product I come up with mixed results. There are a couple of different “manuals” on the product, and different two page fact sheets on the internet (none are dated). To me there are conflicts between the fact sheets and the manual?
> 
> 
> I have attempted to get facts from the maker in Sweden, but they have not been that helpful.
> 
> 
> If I can get reasonably accurate SNR, BER, MER; that could be very helpful. I realize many meters use fuzzy math for MER
> 
> 
> I have not found any reviews or video postings on this product.



I bought one about ten years ago. I've been pleased with it. Keep in mind-this is a signal strength meter. You won't see BER, SNR, etc. on this. I use it for aligning my OTA antenna. It works great for that purpose. The LCD screen is a little on the small side. But, it is useable.


----------



## dbdoc

What concerns me about the Pro ATSC, besides the cheap price, is how few controls it has. It can get real tedious trying to access parameters, channels, modes when you only have arrow up/down or left/right. I have a Sadelcom Display Max 800 at home, which is pretty quick to use. It doesn't have BER, MER etc. At work I have a Sencore SLM 1476CM. It is much slower to use because of the lack of short cut buttons. The Pro Air doesn't even have a number pad for directly accessing channels.

Of course both SLMs I mentioned cost over $1K, but I want this kind of quality. THe Sencore does have the test modes for digital signals. Still, I find myself using the multi channel or single channel displays for levels, the tuning mode for aiming and the spectrum mode for looking at the waveform the most. THe Sencore spectrum mode is real time and can be used for aiming and has adjustable bandwidth for looking at one channel or multiple channels at a time. The Sadelco spectrum mode is not real time and only shows 1 channel at a time.

For any serious setup/troubleshooting, an SLM and 7" portable tv are hard to beat.


----------



## retiredengineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dbdoc*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15420#post_23403136
> 
> 
> 
> For any serious setup/troubleshooting, an SLM and 7" portable tv are hard to beat.



+1. The Digiair will help you align the antenna if the Digiair can lock onto the signal. What it can't do is help you align your antenna to unlockable signals caused by multipath interference. That is the situation where the SLM is useful. You can hookup a small antenna such as the ANT751 to it (a preamp may be required if the signal is weak), select a RF Channel, display the spectrum, and actually walk around your property until you find a place where the spectrum is strong and essentially flat. Mounting the antenna there would give you a clean, glitch free picture.


----------



## holl_ands

Note that Digiair has a FULL-BAND Spectrum Analyzer display mode, but doesn't display Multipath in each channel as an expensive Spectrum Analyzer can. BUT, it CAN display BER and MER to fine tune the Antenna position for best performance (incl. minimum Multipath) after checking locations for best signal strength. The signal strength display doesn't require signal lock. Unfortunately, they aren't on a single display menu.


I use Hauppauge USB Stick Tuner with (FREE) TS Reader Lite on my laptop since the displayed SNR and BER statistics indicate the presence of a signal long before the signal is strong enough for "LOCK " so it can finally display the received video. Although I haven't used the NEW DigiAir Pro ATSC meter, it probably has the same ability to display statistics when signals are too weak for video display "LOCK".


BTW: Since very weak stations are frequently hidden on a Spectrum Analyzer display by much stronger signals on Adjacent (up to 33 dB) and Next Adjacent (up to 44 dB) channels, BER and MER statistics may be a better way to sniff out the "best" Antenna location and pointing angle.


----------



## HoustonPerson

“Fine Tuning” the antenna (aiming and location) is what I am after; but at a price I can afford. All the $1,200 to $25,000 equipment is nice but that is not going to happen. LOL


With the new manual for DigiairPro ATSC and fact sheet last week, they also released their new software 2.1.3 as well. Unfortunately, over this last week I have gotten no additional responses from Emitor or Solid Signal. If Solid Signal has only the older units in stock that will not work for me. The Digiair does not come with upgrade cables you have to make your own PITA, and it is a serial port connection to the computer. We no longer have a computer in the house with serial ports, they are all USB and that becomes another can of worms (converters required) – super PITA. The product does show its dated design without direct USB connections on both ends of the cable.


I think the Digiair can locate a signal without a lock (not an issue for me and not required in my situation). Hopefully it will be able to “fine tune” via the SNR, BER, MER and perhaps Constellation that a mere signal meter cannot do; and that is what I do need here.


For me the controls on the device will not be a problem. You can map out the RF’s you are after (up to 30 of them) and easily toggle thru them. You can also put those RF’s in the “order you want” and not just ascending or descending order. For me I will put the RF’s in “left to right” order matching the horizontal line-up of the RF’s on the horizon. That means I should be able to fine tune a particularly difficult station and then see immediately the effects of signal strength at the same time for 5 additional stations – 6 stations on the same page. Or for that matter 4 more pages of 6 other RF’s a page at a time. Once I resolve the “difficult” station, I can then review all the others for SNR, BER, and MER one by one. If not getting the resolutions desired, then more aiming and location hunting to do.


Holl_ands, I have looked a little bit at Hauppauge sticks (850? or 950?) and TS Reader lite attempting to figure out what it could do for me. Honestly I did not spend too much time studying it, so really do not know what it can do for me. I have been drawn to the Digiair Pro ATSC because it is simplistic by comparison and maybe a little more on target for my needs. The USB stick and TS Reader, has been my second choice but so far I know so little about it and how to make it work…………………so I may come back this subject later.


Hopefully this next week I can get someone at Solid Signal and/or Emitor to wake up.


----------



## Vidop




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Vidop*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15420#post_23402701
> 
> 
> I bought one about ten years ago. I've been pleased with it. Keep in mind-this is a signal strength meter. You won't see BER, SNR, etc. on this. I use it for aligning my OTA antenna. It works great for that purpose. The LCD screen is a little on the small side. But, it is useable.



DUH!-I slightly misspoke. I just realized I have the Digiair Pro--not the Digiair Pro ATSC. There is a difference. Still, I feel the model I have is fine for aligning my antenna. This is the model I have--- http://sadoun.com/Sat/Products/Perfect/DigiAir-signal-meter.htm


----------



## holl_ands

Hauppauge HVR-950Q has a more recent chip than older, non-Q model. Note very limited list of TS Reader compatible Tuners (list NOT complete).


----------



## HoustonPerson

HD7697P

DSC00389.JPG 62k .JPG file


----------



## HoustonPerson

Chasing down gremlins:


Strange: Antennaweb and TVFool show CBS local 11-1 RF19 at two different locations. It is not really a major issue for me; but trying to map things out, seems like all the other stations are shown in the same location from web site to web site.


Dallas


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *HoustonPerson*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15420#post_23424839
> 
> 
> Chasing down gremlins:
> 
> 
> Strange: Antennaweb and TVFool show CBS local 11-1 RF19 at two different locations. It is not really a major issue for me; but trying to map things out, seems like all the other stations are shown in the same location from web site to web site.
> 
> 
> Dallas


Hi,

 

Read this:

 

http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view;jsessionid=hfLBR6LSzGFk6zy7HH0znghC6MHxpvqWCCHj3Hn2dG4VfNnpFsBP!1291806534!-1272756975?id=6015188435

 

RabbitEars was the starting point to find the document.

 

RabbitEars Markets

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php

 

You are a Fool to relay on TVFool when the FCC is in control.

 

SHF

 

(YES, I had to follow several links before finding the document.







 You think the FCC wants you to find stuff.







)

 

TVFool appears to have outdated data.


----------



## HoustonPerson

Yes the dropping of RF 11 and using only RF 19 for 11.1 I was aware of. What I was referring to was the "actual" physical location of the tower. It looks to me that the various web sites have a different physical location. And it is a ton of reading to try to figure out where the tower is.


This is a non issue for me, more or less just an item of interest. I was able to get RF11 and RF19 for 11.1 Of course RF 11 is gone now. Surprisingly, my neighbor is not able to get 11.1 at all - but he has not really tried - no real interest in TV. His antenna is about 100 feet from mine.


Regarding the other Dallas stations:


During this next month I should be addressing the "tree" problem head on, at least that is the plan. Nope, I can't remove the trees LOL Stay Tuned.


----------



## leisays

thanks.that will require a REGULAR TV antenna aimed at your locals stations' transmitter towers.


----------



## gregzoll

You could do the same type of setup that I have  I cannot remember if I posted it in this thread with the info on what equipment I am using. It is a DB8 for UHF, Channel Master CM-7778 pre-amp, Antennacraft® Y5713 for VHF. I am using a UHF/VHF Splitter/Combiner between the two antennas, since the DB8 will pick up VHF 7-13, and it is actually facing about 100 degrees from where the local VHF towers are in my area.


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: I've added 4nec2 analysis for several Yagi Antennas:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis 

New ones include:


a) *UHF 7-Element Folded Dipole (FD) Yagi*, Optimized by nikiml, UHF Raw Gain = 8.3 to 12.1 dBi, F/B & F/R Ratio Minimum = 10.4 dB (FAIR).


b) *UHF 7-Element Folded Dipole (FD) Yagi*, with UHF Raw Gain = 7.8 to 11.2 dBi (slight reduction) with increased F/R & F/B Ratio Minimum = 14.6 dB (GOOD).


c) *UHF 8-Element Folded Dipole Yagi (with 2 Reflector Rods)*, provides UHF Raw Gain = 8.2 to 11.7 dBi, F/B & F/R Ratio Minimum = 20.6 dB (EXCELLENT).


d) *UHF 12-Element Folded Dipole Yagi*, provides UHF Raw Gain = 8.2 to 12.7 dBi, F/B & F/R Ratio Minimum = 15.6 dB (GOOD), but SWR under 3.2 (FAIR) needs improvement.


e) *UHF 13-Element Folded Dipole Yagi (with 2 Reflector Rods)*, provides UHF Raw Gain = 9.3 to 13.4 dBi, F/B & F/R Ratio Minimum = 22.3 dB (EXCELLENT).


BTW: Although I "requested" only 1 dB Gain increase across the New UHF Band (to compensate for higher Balun Loss prior to Preamp), the result curves were much more than needed: 3.5 to 4 dB increase....so the lower frequencies are disadvantaged when using a Preamp...but the larger difference is in the desired ballpark if NOT using a Preamp.


PS: When I deleted the F/B & F/R Ratio Optimization requirements, Raw Gain only increased 0.5 to 1.0 dB...hardly worth throwing away the above Good to Excellent F/B & F/R Ratio performance.


I also recently uploaded 4nec2 analysis for:


f) *Vertically Stacked UHF 8-El Folded Dipole Yagis (2 Reflector Rods Each)*:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/stacked/verticallystackeduhf/uhfvstack7elfdyagi2rr?n=0 

UHF Raw Gain = 11.3 to 14.5 dBi, F/B & F/R Ratio Minimum = 22.2 dB (EXCELLENT) and SWR Under 3.0.


g) *Various UHF 7-El Bi-Quagi, 7/8-El Bi-Quad Yagis and a 15-Element "Double Bi-Quad"* that did not compare very well to the *Stacked 8-El FD-Yagis just referenced*:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1681265 
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/biquads 


h) *UHF 7-El and 8-El "VEE" LPDA's*:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/zigzaglpa/uhflpda 

Raw Gain was EXTREMELY FLAT: 8.6 dB (+/- 0.2 dB), F/B & F/R Ratio Minimum = 27.2 dB (EXCELLENT).


----------



## tylerSC

Solid Signal now has their own version of a 91XG type of UHF antenna called Extreme Signal. And they also have an 8 bay version similar to a CM-4228HD or DB8e.


----------



## holl_ands

i) *13-El FD-Yagi (2RR) with EQUAL LENGTH DIRECTORS* for all in FRONT of 2nd Director results have also been uploaded.
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/uhf13elfdyagi2rreqdiropt


UHF Raw Gain = 8.8 to 14.2 dBi, F/B & F/R Minimum = 21.2 dB and SWR Under 1.6.

Without Equal Director constraint, UHF Raw Gain = 9.3 to 13.4 dBi, hence we picked up 0.8 dB

on higher channels but lost 0.5 dB on lowest and only lost about 1 dB for F/R & F/B Minimum.

The 4.1 dB difference between lowest and higher freqs would disadvantage reception on

lowest Channels, esp. when using a Preamp but might be acceptable if NOT using Preamp.

*UHF 13-El FD-Yagi (2RR)* webpage now contains Boom Correction Calculation Spread Sheet

Examples, based on a variety of references sources (note disagreements):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/uhf13elfdyagi2rropt 


For a 1-in Boom (Circular or Square), the extra Passive Element Half-Length is 0.25-in or LESS,

and for a 1/2-in Boom, the Boom Correction is only 0.1-in or LESS. Element Size did not matter.


----------



## bmel

I have a channel master antenna on the roof with a cm 9521 rotor and controller. The controller has gone out. Makes a loud clicking noise when powered up. I cannot find a replacement. Every web site, including channel master,shows it as discontinued or out of stock. Is there an alternate available. The controller is model cm 9537.


----------



## tylerSC

I would contact Channel Master about the rotor. They have replaced many of their original products with newer versions since the PCT takeover.


----------



## Digital Rules

Check for a short circuit. Thought mine was gone, but the shorting wires made it click.


----------



## OTAhead

Did you try ebay???


----------



## AntAltMike

What is the cheapest (least expensive) 8 bay bowtie presently available? I'm not concerned with physical or performance quality. I am only concerned with price, since I am going to have to give it to someone, telling them that if they like it, they can go buy a "better one" themselves.


----------



## Digital Rules

How about this ?


----------



## cjvnyc

I'm using this amp with my Digital OTA, an amp I found left by a cable guy some years back when there was signal degradation over a long haul. How does it compare with what others are using? Are there better choices out there that are worth the full delta in price? My lower channels are strong- it's the higher ones that are weaker.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cjvnyc*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15450#post_23581093
> 
> 
> I'm using this amp with my Digital OTA, an amp I found left by a cable guy some years back when there was signal degradation over a long haul. How does it compare with what others are using? Are there better choices out there that are worth the full delta in price? My lower channels are strong- it's the higher ones that are weaker.





If you look that part number up on Google there's lots of information on it. It looks like a good distribution amplifier if used in conjunction with a power splitter. It's not an antenna preamp if that's what you're looking for. It's used to extend the length of a cable run or drive multiple TVs.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15450#post_23580649
> 
> 
> What is the cheapest (least expensive) 8 bay bowtie presently available? I'm not concerned with physical or performance quality. I am only concerned with price, since I am going to have to give it to someone, telling them that if they like it, they can go buy a "better one" themselves.


MCM Electronics has their Stellar Labs 8-bay for $49.99. Perhaps identical to the Extreme Signal version that is $59.99 from Solid Signal. Both models are adjustable to optimize direction.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cjvnyc*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15450#post_23581093
> 
> 
> I'm using this amp with my Digital OTA, an amp I found left by a cable guy some years back when there was signal degradation over a long haul. How does it compare with what others are using? Are there better choices out there that are worth the full delta in price? My lower channels are strong- it's the higher ones that are weaker.


Those Electroline Drop Amps are very well made and can indeed be used as a preamp if you purchase a remote power supply. Also, the Motorola and Channel Master dist amps are very good, and can also be used as a preamp with a remote power supply.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15450#post_23582473
> 
> 
> MCM Electronics has their Stellar Labs 8-bay for $49.99. Perhaps identical to the Extreme Signal version that is $59.99 from Solid Signal. Both models are adjustable to optimize direction.



If you just want to annoy the recipient, you can give them the link to the manufacturer in China of that particular antenna.

http://www.qiaohua.com/products/av-0948dt.htm 


If you order them 1,000 at a time, you can probably get them for $8 each (or less) plus freight.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15450#post_23583036
> 
> 
> If you just want to annoy the recipient, you can give them the link to the manufacturer in China of that particular antenna.
> 
> http://www.qiaohua.com/products/av-0948dt.htm
> 
> 
> If you order them 1,000 at a time, you can probably get them for $8 each (or less) plus freight.


That company certainly seems to be the same manufacturer of the MCM/Stellar Labs and Extreme Signal antennas. They all appear to be the same or very similar.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

If you poke around among their other offerings, you'll find the rest of SS's "new" antenna lineup. I stumbled across this company a while back when I was looking at the Digiwave offerings. Look closer and you'll see that even some of the product photos are the same on both websites minus the watermarks and one image that's been flipped horizontally.


I'm really surprised no one has congratulated SS on launching a product lineup four years after the products became obsolete, complete with improbable specifications and performance claims. 23 dB gain and a 60° BW on an 8 bay???? 60 dB BW on their 91XG knockoff???


----------



## tylerSC

The marketing claims appear to be inflated, but otherwise these appear to be good antenna designs. Although performance has not necessarily been evaluated. But I was recently able to get a DB8e for a very good price instore at Fry's in Georgia. And I just received a Televes DAT 75 that I got for $50 on ebay. More proven performers that I will try out. But I still have my original CM-4248 that I keep permanently installed as my main antenna. My best performer.


----------



## jabcing

decking and wall construction materials, an attic install may not be reliable.thank you


----------



## kousikb

Attic install picture of stellar lab antenna from MCM. I am at 52 miles from NYC. This one is getting almost all the channels except two Hi-VHF (CW11 and PBS13).


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kousikb*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15450#post_23595899
> 
> 
> Attic install picture of stellar lab antenna from MCM. I am at 52 miles from NYC. This one is getting almost all the channels except two Hi-VHF (CW11 and PBS13).



It's terrific that this is working for you but I believe that others reading this who are not familiar with typical reception situations could be misled into thinking that a small attic installation at 50 miles will work for everyone. It's most likely not to work.


I receive KSBW RF 8 at 115 miles 100% of the time with a very good signal. They use an omni antenna and 21KW. I also receive KCBA RF 13 99.9% from the same tower and they have just 65 watts in my direction from their highly directional antenna. This is an exceptional situation. Their antenna is at 3440' on one side of a valley and my antenna is at 2640' on the other side of a valley with almost nothing in between. Few people can expect reliable high VHF reception at 115 miles.


Fairly reliable reception of UHF full power stations using a good outdoor antenna should be possible up to 60 miles and perhaps 80 miles on high VHF. Compromise antenna installations in attics or indoors can expect considerably less.


----------



## tylerSC

Stellar Labs also makes a large version of that triple boom yagi from MCM. Similar to a design used by Televes DAT-75. And an attic set up can work well, but you are correct, for longe range distant reception, outside is normally better.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

"Stellar Labs" doesn't make them, that's just a marketing name. They're made by the same Chinese company that Solid Signal is getting their "new" antennas from. Basically looks like a rip-off of the Televes design.

http://www.qiaohua.com/productstype/uhf-antennas-series2.htm


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15450#post_23598880
> 
> 
> "Stellar Labs" doesn't make them, that's just a marketing name. They're made by the same Chinese company that Solid Signal is getting their "new" antennas from. Basically looks like a rip-off of the Televes design.
> 
> http://www.qiaohua.com/productstype/uhf-antennas-series2.htm


Yes, that is what I was trying to say, but you stated it more accurately. But that triple boom design is reportedly a good performer, at least in the case of Televes.


----------



## kousikb

I noticed after the install that the antenna I got also have hi vhf version for few bucks more. Its too late now and dont want to take the hassle of returning and rebuying. I will try to add large dipole in the center to see if it can improve the hi vhf frequency. Regarding, instaling it outdoor I understand that it would be much better. However I live in a subdivision and I didnt want to stand out plus it needs proper grounding to protect from lightening. Is proper grounding needed for attic installed antenna? Now that this experiment is successful, I am now thinking of trying RCA ANT751 and the antennacraft HBU22, which are supposedly better vhf performer.


----------



## gregzoll




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kousikb*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15450#post_23600284
> 
> 
> I noticed after the install that the antenna I got also have hi vhf version for few bucks more. Its too late now and dont want to take the hassle of returning and rebuying. I will try to add large dipole in the center to see if it can improve the hi vhf frequency. Regarding, instaling it outdoor I understand that it would be much better. However I live in a subdivision and I didnt want to stand out plus it needs proper grounding to protect from lightening. Is proper grounding needed for attic installed antenna? Now that this experiment is successful, I am now thinking of trying RCA ANT751 and the antennacraft HBU22, which are supposedly better vhf performer.


As long as the wiring does not exit the structure, same goes for the antenna, why ground it?


As for being in a subdivision, they cannot stop you from placing an antenna for tv on your structure to begin with. They can restrict you from the size, such as the case of those large Ham Radio setups, but Over The Air, Satellite, they cannot touch you.


----------



## cjvnyc




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15450#post_23582487
> 
> 
> Those Electroline Drop Amps are very well made and can indeed be used as a preamp if you purchase a remote power supply. Also, the Motorola and Channel Master dist amps are very good, and can also be used as a preamp with a remote power supply.



By the way, a retailer on eBay is selling them new in package for $19.98/ea including free shipping- I ordered two new ones and they were in my box within 2 days. Freaky deal IMO.


----------



## 58dxer

Looking at the specs. on the HDB91x from solid signal and the other models from the chinese mfg. such as the 4 bays/8bays they are designed for 470 to 860 mhz.. Designed for the European UHF tv spectrum maybe some other countries? It would be nice if they had a 470 to 700 mhz USA model, maybe pickup a couple DB and narrow the BW. All those directors probably run out of steam rather quickly as you approach the low end of the USA uhf tv band. I imagine the 60 degree horizontal BW claim is about right for the low end of the UHF band as those directors become more transparent since the antenna would now be more common to just a simple corner reflector. Just a thought


----------



## alphanguy

Ok... I got a question. I have an 91-XG, and am getting an antennacraft FM-6 to hook to my new clock radio in the bedroom, so wondering if I mounted the FM-6 on the same mast, about 3 feet below the 91-XG, would it cause any intereference problems on the FM side? I know that the 91-XG is safe from intereference, as I have a channelmaster 7775 on it, and it won't pass any FM signal anyway, but just wondering if the 91-XG would give me any trouble with my FM reception if they are that close together?


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *alphanguy*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15480#post_23623221
> 
> 
> I know that the 91-XG is safe from interference . .


Not necessarily, but at 3 feet, you will likely notice any degradation to either band. Just take note of your UHF reception before & after installation to see if you notice any changes. The recommended separation is closer to 4 feet.


I have 4 FM antennas & 1 TV antenna in the attic all within 1-4 feet of each other with no noticeable degradation in reception.


----------



## holl_ands

I just uploaded 4nec2 analysis for Stacked A-D 91XG UHF Corner-Yagi and A-C FM-6 Yagi:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/stacked/stackuhffm 


Analysis confirms recommended minimum Boom-Boom Center Separation of 4-feet for negligible 91XG degradation to (mostly) F/B & F/R Ratios. Note unusually high F/R degradation for Sep=3-ft. The actual Raw Gain was only minimally affected, except when Separation was only 1-foot, resulting in about 1.5 dB Gain reduction.


There was no noticeable degradation to the FM-6, so FM Band charts are not provided.


----------



## tylerSC

For the first time in so many years, Winegard has introduced a new preamp, the LNA-200 Boost XT. It is supposedly more optimized for digital signals, as it claims an ultra low noise figure of 1.0, along with separate amplication of UHF and VHF signals using clear circuit technology. The gain is around 18db. It will be interesting to hear results of real world performance, and is a totally different design from their AP series Chromestar preamps.


----------



## gregzoll




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15480#post_23630300
> 
> 
> For the first time in so many years, Winegard has introduced a new preamp, the LNA-200 Boost XT. It is supposedly more optimized for digital signals, as it claims an ultra low noise figure of 1.0, along with separate amplication of UHF and VHF signals using clear circuit technology. The gain is around 18db. It will be interesting to hear results of real world performance, and is a totally different design from their AP series Chromestar preamps.


This is what I am showing on it:


Gain*: 20 dB L-VHF, 15 dB H-VHF, 18 dB UHF

Noise Figure*: 3 dB VHF, 1 dB UHF

http://www.winegard.com/offair/amplifiers.php 


Just a typical Medium Gain Pre-amp, with the typical noise figure of all other Pre-amps in its class. Nothing special about it. The only thing special about it, is that it uses USB to power it, unlike conventional real Pre-amps.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gregzoll*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15480#post_23630379
> 
> 
> This is what I am showing on it:
> 
> 
> Gain*: 20 dB L-VHF, 15 dB H-VHF, 18 dB UHF
> 
> Noise Figure*: 3 dB VHF, 1 dB UHF
> 
> http://www.winegard.com/offair/amplifiers.php
> 
> 
> Just a typical Medium Gain Pre-amp, with the typical noise figure of all other Pre-amps in its class. Nothing special about it. The only thing special about it, is that it uses USB to power it, unlike conventional real Pre-amps.



There is something special about it. It can handle 20 dB more total input power than the older designs. That's a big deal for reducing preamp overload if strong signals are present. That doesn't prevent TV overload though.


Not sure what's up with the USB cable. Maybe it's just a cheap and common cable that they're using to get power to the preamp.


----------



## AntAltMike

That Winegard spec sheet is a bad joke. It needs to be sent back to their "re-write" deparment, if they have one.


----------



## gregzoll




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15480#post_23631959
> 
> 
> There is something special about it. It can handle 20 dB more total input power than the older designs. That's a big deal for reducing preamp overload if strong signals are present. That doesn't prevent TV overload though.
> 
> 
> Not sure what's up with the USB cable. Maybe it's just a cheap and common cable that they're using to get power to the preamp.


It is really no different than the Channel Master CM-7778, but the CM is a better design. As for the USB power supply, it is so that you do not need the wall wart, but to use the USB output on a TV (good for allowing you to fry the tv or other device the preamp is being power by, if the antenna is outside, and not properly grounded. Good design Winegard).


----------



## gregzoll




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15480#post_23632222
> 
> 
> That Winegard spec sheet is a bad joke. It needs to be sent back to their "re-write" deparment, if they have one.


Majority of those spec sheets look like a kid from Junior High School wrote them, and attended the Chicago Public School system.


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> This is what I am showing on it:
> 
> 
> Gain*: 20 dB L-VHF, 15 dB H-VHF, 18 dB UHF
> 
> Noise Figure*: 3 dB VHF, 1 dB UHF



Yes, that's what Winegard says it is....


The sample I tested last week shows that either i got a bad amp or they need some new testing equipment for measuring noise figure on their pre-amps. The sample tested anywhere from _1 to 3 dB HIGHER_ than their claims, much like the 8700, 8800, and 269 that I've previously tested. All of them had high noise figures compared to their claimed specifications.


On the LNA200, I measured an _*average*_ of 4.7 dB NF on low-V, 5.6 dB on high-V, and 2.8 dB on UHF as computed by the NF meter software. Major spikes from ingress were evident, some as much as 8 dB.


Ironically, the little indoor LNA100 _DOES_ sample did meet the 1 dB NF on high-V and UHF (but not low-VHF).


Both did fairly well on OIP3 testing.




> Quote:
> It is really no different than the Channel Master CM-7778, but the CM is a better design.



Are you referring to the "Classic" or the new 2012 version? Just curious. I haven't tested a sample of the 2012 version of the 7778. I do own (personally) and have tested the new 7777 and, except for the case and the model number, it is nothing like its predecessor.


If you really like the old 7778, you might get a kick out of the $20 RCA pre-amp.


----------



## gregzoll

I have the newer version ADTech. The two Channel Master Pre-Amps have been work horses for a very long time. They have had very few changes to them, other than maybe aesthetics. Using newer digital technologies to shrink the size of the circuit board, and fine tune the UHF & VHF circuits better.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Speaking of jokes, how can they claim that a 15-20 dB pre-amplifier that runs off of 5 volts DC can accept 2,074,700 micro volts at the input?

 


What's that, the self-destruct limit???? That's 17.4 dBm on the input??? Did some one who didn't know what they were doing take the Output IP3 number, subtract the gain, then covert that to micro volts or something?


Someone in Burlington must be into the corn squeezin's!


ADTech,


> Quote:
> Both did fairly well on OIP3 testing.



What did they measure, if you don't mind sharing?


----------



## holl_ands

I get the same max input number....which is 20 dB better than AP8700....if we PRESUME they are comparing apples to apples (i.e. PEAK power in NTSC signals) and -46 dBc Crossmodulation levels.....for TWO equal strength input signals (NONE of which is found in their fine print).....
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1708730 

Discussion continues for another 10-20 posts....But I have NOT seen any independent verification for W-G claims.....


----------



## gregzoll

With the newer digital chips, you do not need a 12-30 volt power supply. It is obvious that Winegard has figured something out to make this work. Most likely they took the amp circuit out of the SensarPro, for the new LNA amps. Unless someone is able to find the Patent info showing the circuitry, or willing to purchase one of these, to dissect it, we just need to go by the claims that Wingard is putting out. All you really need is a series of Rectifiers to boost the voltage from 5 volts to the level that you need. With most rectifiers now being on a chip, it is easy to do with Micro circuitry rectifiers, that are very small.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Single ended LNA chips with medium gain, low noise, and high overload resistance are becoming more common. It's unlikely that Winegard had to do anything more difficult than selecting the semiconductor and designing the rest of the product around it. There's no need to boost the supply voltage.



It's pretty plain that someone screwed up the math in that advertising copy. You can't put two volts of signal into a pre-amp and expect it to operate.


They specify P1dB as +15/+18.4 dBm (V/U) with respective gains of 15-20 dB, that would indicate that the amplifier is already in compression at -5 to 0 dBm *single tone* input. 0 dBm =~ 273,000 uV -5 dBm =~154,000 uV. Clearly, the claimed input capability is ludicrous!


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15480#post_23634895
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's pretty plain that someone screwed up the math in that advertising copy. You can't put two volts of signal into a pre-amp and expect it to operate.



Aw shucks. I was going to buy one and use its output to light up my Christmas tree off my USB port..


----------



## HoustonPerson

I have a AP 8700 and might be going to the new winegard amp soon (one or two months).


Their marketing poop I thought was implying that the new amp could take Big Overload without crashing; but I really do not know.


Currently working on other projects that have to be cleared first before I get back to the "antenna project".


The main reason I am interested in the amp is to see I can get much better SNR, BER, and MER than I do with the 8700. In some situations the 8700 has been a little too dirty for me (poor SNR) even though the signal strength is higher.


If I get the new amp, I will post the results here. But the posts above indicate it is not much better than the 8700 or maybe not as good. So if the new amp cannot deliver the "goods" I would send it back.


----------



## tylerSC

Winegard has also just introduced a new Flatwave Air amplified antenna for outdoor or attic use, which also uses their new low noise amp technology. Probably a successor to the SS1000/2000 antenna, which are good for when a more discreet antenna is desired.


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> What did they measure, if you don't mind sharing?



Sure. Click on images for larger version.


General frequency response.

 


Gain and noise figure, single sample. Note filters (FM, inter-band, cellular). Note ingress spikes that correspond with local (St Louis) broadcasts and other local signals. Note especially the huge ingress spike from the local Verizon LTE tower (736-746 MHz) that's a half mile away. That's what a plastic case gives you. Measurements taken in office environment, non-shielded.

 


Two-tone IMD test. Note that the screen shot does not include a 5.7 dB min loss pad on the input of the the spectrum analyzer, you must manually add that value back to indicated power levels. Note also that precision measurements, especially when set to 10 dB/div, are not possible on the HP8569B analyzer. I consider these as estimates only. This was one of the better sets of readings which were done at four different frequencies.

 


Note that this test corresponds to the EN50083-5 which superseded DIN45004B back in the late 90s. DIN45004B specs are still commonly given for Euro-Asian market masthead amplifier products


P1dB Results: +10 dBm @ 75 MHz, +12 dBm @ 200 MHz, +16 dBm @ 500 MHz, & +16 dBm @ 650 MHz. (Same spectrum analyzer, same cautions as to precision).


The good news is that I talked the boss into a new spectrum analyzer and a new signal generator and they should be here late next week!


----------



## bernieoc

Just ordered LNA100 from Amazon for $42.97 no shipping charge. Will try to improve attic installation. Will report results.


----------



## ADTech

If you have an electrical outlet in your attic and your reception is due to insufficient signal power at the TV, then the LNA100 would likely help.


However, adding an amplifier might not do the intended job if the problem is due to poor signal quality that is a result of the antenna selection and placement. In some cases, the amplifier will do more harm than good, so it is necessary to properly identify the root cause of the reception concern in order to see if an amplifier would be useful.


Or, you can just throw an amp at the problem and see if it solves the un-diagnosed problem, it sometimes does.


----------



## tylerSC

A cheaper alternative, the RCA low noise inline amp is sold at Walmart for $15. Their preamp is good, so the inline amp may use similar design circuitry. But I have found preamps usually work better with attic antennas than those inline amps. I guess because of the separate amp and power injector.


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> Their preamp is good, so the inline amp may use similar design circuitry.



They are nothing like each other..


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADTech*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15480#post_23645915
> 
> 
> They are nothing like each other..


Well, I guess they may be different then. But the RCA inline amp is still a cheap alternative for $15 at Walmart. Perhaps better than the Radioshack inline amp, I don't know. But worth a try when an inline amp is all you may need. But in my case, I have found a preamp works best with an attic antenna.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Guessing and knowing are two completely different things.


Sometimes pre-amps and distribution amps are interchangeable, sometimes one topology has the advantage over the other. Sometimes, it doesn't matter as either may work.


----------



## AntAltMike

Mauldin, SC is in the Greenville market and has line of sight transmission paths to the center of the zip code 29662. The only signal that might be borderline for you without a preamp would be your channel 13. You might benefit most from using separate VHF and UHF antennas if you are not already.


Which channels so you have trouble with, with and without amplification?


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AntAltMike*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15480#post_23646724
> 
> 
> Mauldin, SC is in the Greenville market and has line of sight transmission paths to the center of the zip code 29662. The only signal that might be borderline for you without a preamp would be your channel 13. You might benefit most from using separate VHF and UHF antennas if you are not already.
> 
> 
> Which channels so you have trouble with, with and without amplification?


I am in zip code 29607. My signal is split to 3 TVs. Using an original Channel Master 4248 UHF Diamond antenna, Radioshack rabbit ears for VHF, Holland UVSJ, and Kitztech 200 preamp. Can receive most local channels without preamp, except WLOS-13. Amp is needed to receive 13 and Charlotte, NC signals from 75 miles. I get reliable reception from WBTV-3, WCNC-36, WJZY-46, and WMYT-55. And WSOC 9.1 and 9.5 mainly at night. I used to barely receive 9.5 more regularly during the day, which is a low power translator on RF30 from 60 miles. But some interference is now drowning out this low power signal, perhaps when RF16 very close by recently increased power. I would like to filter out RF16 and RF43 which are strong signals that may be overpowering RF30 in the amp. I had filtered out RF7 and RF9(29) which are very strong, but did not help with RF30. But all other channels I receive reliably, and I can even get WBTV RF23 without the amp from 75 miles. But RF30 is not a reasonable expectation at my distance due to low power, and my antenna is in the attic. But I did get it for over 2 years until recently. But I get all locals and most Charlotte reliably with my current set up. So long story short, preamp is needed for Charlotte.


----------



## pamajestic

I just noticed AntennaCraft is now offering a version of the ANT751. Two options, HBU11 is the antenna only or the HBU11K including a J-mount. Currently $18 and $25 at SS. I will probably order one here shortly and give it a test.

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HBU11&d=Antennacraft-by-RadioShack-HBU11-13element-HighBand-VHF--UHF-Outdoor-HDTV-Antenna-%28HBU11%29&c=TV%20Antennas&sku= 

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HBU11K&d=Antennacraft-by-RadioShack-HBU11K-13element-HighBand-VHF--UHF-Outdoor-HDTV-Antenna-With-Jtype-Mount-%28HBU11K%29&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=


----------



## tylerSC

Apparently Winegard is phasing out many of its AP Series Chromestar preamplifiers. So if you are interested, you may need to order now before certain models are no longer available. Looks like only the medium and low gain 8700 and 269 models may remain. The higher gain 28db models may have been discontinued, including the 8780, 8275, and UHF 4800. As they now appear to be featuring the new LNA-200 Boost XT low noise amp. But it is more moderate gain around 18db, so I wonder if they will eventually produce a higher gain version of this new model.


----------



## Calaveras

Those high gain preamps probably cause more problems than they solve when used by people who think more gain equals a better signal. Instead they end up overloading something.


A gain of 18 dB is a good choice for the vast majority of installations using 100' of RG-6 and running one TV. A preamp with a 3 dB noise figure will end up with a system noise figure of around 3.5 dB. If you need to drive more TVs then add a distribution amp. If you need a cable run of up to 200' then use RG-11 instead of RG-6.


If you need more than 250' of cable then you need to look at hardline and lastly a higher gain preamp.


I'm the only person I know of with more than 250' of cable. My run is 525' - 430' of Trilogy 1/2" hardline + 75' of RG-11 up the tower + 20' of RG-6 into the house. I had to go to a Tinlee 30 dB gain preamp to keep the system noise figure low. I tried one of the Winegard high gain preamps and it got overloaded. Discontinuation of those preamps may not be of any real loss.


----------



## tylerSC

Well, for reasons you suggest, Winegard may have indeed determined that those higher gain preamps are no longer recommended for most applications with today's digital signals. The 18-19db gain with a focus on lower noise and overload resistance may now be the more critical factors in design and performance. The CPA-19 from Antennas Direct also had similar specs, although it may have been designed differently. Reportedly they are planning a replacement version.


----------



## Ennui

I have been using the 9095 UHF antenna for some years with good results (have 75 feet of RG-59).


The real benefit is that the preamp (Winegard AP-8275) has two inputs: one UHF and one VHF. So no need to run two lines down to the TV.


FYI.


----------



## tylerSC

I am wondering if LTE/4G transmissions can cause interference with digital TV. Signals from cell phone towers and wireless internet networks. I have seen some LTE/4G filters available mostly on European sites. Do US digital signals now stop at 790MHz? Trying to understand the specs on these filters and if they would be of benefit. They supposedly filter above 790MHz. And what MHz frequency is RF47?


----------



## holl_ands

I addressed 4G/LTE Interference to DTV in fol. post:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1693522 

which contained link to fol. sequence of posts, incl. LTE Filter effectiveness...mostly a lack thereof,

although there may be some new Filters now available:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1389931 


Note that most available LTE to DTV EMI Tests were conducted in Europe, where the LTE Band

starts at about "800 MHz", vice our "700 MHz" Band....but the general results are still in the ballpark.


BOTTOM LINE: If LTE Tower is within a few miles, it could interfere with DTV reception (mostly upper channels). An LTE FIlter could reduce SOME of the EMI from ATT's Tower Transmissions on 734 - 746 MHz.


Handheld Cell Phone/Tablet transmissions MIGHT also be a problem, but it should be obvious when watch DTV (mostly upper channels) while you transmit from devices in your own home....which MAY be configured to use higher frequency 3G vice 4G/LTE band for voice and may or may not be configured to use 4G/LTE Band for Data Upload. A DTV Antenna Filter located CLOSE TO THE TUNER could reduce EMI from Verizon phones, but would be only partially effective against ATT Cell Phone/Tablet transmissions on 704 - 716 MHz (just above RF Ch51).


DTV Broadcast Frequencies for North America found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_broadcast_television_frequencies 


For Europe and the rest of the world, the channel numbers vary quite a bit, with some countries using 6, 7 and/or 8 MHz channel spacings...which can be different for their own VHF & UHF Bands....so without some sort of reference, it's indeterminate which frequency assignment "RF47" refers to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_channel_frequencies


----------



## CobbFC09

So I'm looking into getting an antenna. I ran a test on TV Fool and got these results: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae6fec0e5307 


Judging by the results it appears I need roof-mounted antenna to get the most channels, but that's not an option as I'm in a second floor apartment. Would love for someone to point me in the right direction in terms of my purchasing options.


----------



## gregzoll




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CobbFC09*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15500_100#post_23711705
> 
> 
> So I'm looking into getting an antenna. I ran a test on TV Fool and got these results: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae6fec0e5307
> 
> 
> Judging by the results it appears I need roof-mounted antenna to get the most channels, but that's not an option as I'm in a second floor apartment. Would love for someone to point me in the right direction in terms of my purchasing options.


Roof or attic mounted. Your problem is the trees and rolling hills down there. Majority of the towers come out of the Atlanta area from the 5 o'Clock position.


Looks like Fox (WAGA), ABC (WSB) at 100,000kW, NBC (WXIA) at 80,000kW, Independent (WATC) at 330,000kW, are the only ones that operate at high enough power, that you would probably not need a Pre-amp for them. PBS (WPBA) at 55,400kW, you may need a Pre-amp. Everything else appears to be Low Power; that means Comcast, Direct or Dish; if you want the Low Power channels, or put an antenna high enough up in the air with a good pre-amp; like the Channel Master CM-7777 if you do not want CATV or Satellite.


----------



## CobbFC09




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gregzoll*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15510#post_23712153
> 
> 
> Roof or attic mounted. Your problem is the trees and rolling hills down there. Majority of the towers come out of the Atlanta area from the 5 o'Clock position.
> 
> 
> Looks like Fox (WAGA), ABC (WSB) at 100,000kW, NBC (WXIA) at 80,000kW, Independent (WATC) at 330,000kW, are the only ones that operate at high enough power, that you would probably not need a Pre-amp for them. PBS (WPBA) at 55,400kW, you may need a Pre-amp. Everything else appears to be Low Power; that means Comcast, Direct or Dish; if you want the Low Power channels, or put an antenna high enough up in the air with a good pre-amp; like the Channel Master CM-7777 if you do not want CATV or Satellite.


Thanks for the reply!


What do you mean when you say "that means Comcast, Direct or Dish; if you want the Low Power channels"? Right now I currently have Comcast for TV and Internet, but am considering dropping it since I never even watch much TV. I'm looking into the antenna because it's seemed relatively cheap and I'd still like to get channels like ABC, NBC, and Fox.


----------



## gregzoll




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CobbFC09*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15500_100#post_23712192
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply!
> 
> 
> What do you mean when you say "that means Comcast, Direct or Dish; if you want the Low Power channels"? Right now I currently have Comcast for TV and Internet, but am considering dropping it since I never even watch much TV. I'm looking into the antenna because it's seemed relatively cheap and I'd still like to get channels like ABC, NBC, and Fox.


Scratch that on the six channels I listed. I just went back in and TVFool behaved this time for me, last time it was not giving me the info on stations like Peachtree, etc., along with the rest of the list, when I did the map, not just the Radar plot.


Sometimes TVFool gets a mind of its own, and does not always want to work right. Especially on Weekends and Holidays, which seem to be when they do their database maintenance. I got it to work this time and now I am getting the correct info on all the stations within a 55 mile radius of Kennesaw.


I cannot really give you a specific answer on which of the Antenna Craft line to use, since I use a Y5713 for my VHF-hi, and a Antenna's Direct DB8 for UHF. Here is the Antenna Craft link on their antennas http://antennacraft.com/Antennas/AntennasAllChannel.html Personally if you want something that will last for a long time, go with the Heavy Duty series; something like the HD850 or HD1200. If you go with the 1800 series, you are just going overkill on an antenna that you do not need.


How tall is the tower that you plan on putting up, or are you just going to mount to the side of the home, or on a Chimney? You will also have to add in the cost of a Rotor, if you plan on fine tuning, due to the range of the channels within that 80 mile radius. As for a Pre-amp, I would test without it first, see how things go. If low Signal quality, then put on the pre-amp and test again. With the rolling hills and trees down in that part of the country, I would probably go with a high gain amp like the Channel Master CM-7777. You could always order both the 7777 & 7778 and then return the 7777 if you find that it is just overpowering the signal.


I would pull say six feet of Coax & rotor control line into the attic, so that if you end up having a storm take out the line going to the rotor & antenna, you have some extra up there for repair. Of course if you also plan on doing a antenna for you to be able to pick up your wifi signal outside within 75-100 feet of your home, it does not hurt to also pull the line up with the coax and rotor lines, and then do that also; since you will be installing the antenna, and that way you do not have to get back up there later, having to install that also. Just wanted to add that, since even myself, there are times when I go outside the house about a 100-200 feet down the block, to the gas station and local sub shop and still want my wifi signal, but end up loosing it about 30 feet from the house.


----------



## tylerSC

We have Charter cable TV and internet service, as well as an OTA antenna in the attic. Would a MoCA filter be of benefit to prevent interference with OTA reception? Should it be installed in the Charter cable line, or the antenna cable? The stopband on this filter says 1125-1525 MHz, but it passes the TV band of 5-1002 MHz. But not sure if this filter is necessary, or what it would benefit. Just wondering.


----------



## gregzoll




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15500_100#post_23718226
> 
> 
> We have Charter cable TV and internet service, as well as an OTA antenna in the attic. Would a MoCA filter be of benefit to prevent interference with OTA reception? Should it be installed in the Charter cable line, or the antenna cable? The stopband on this filter says 1125-1525 MHz, but it passes the TV band of 5-1002 MHz. But not sure if this filter is necessary, or what it would benefit. Just wondering.


What kind of interference are you seeing from the antenna? Is the coax from the antenna a direct run from the pre-amp to the tv, or does it go through splitters? Have you also gone back through and rechecked the ends of the coax lines?


Out of the examples at the following site http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/interference/television-interference.php which one are you seeing?


----------



## tylerSC

One foot cable from antenna to preamp. Then 6ft cable to 2-way splitter. Remote power supply at one TV downstairs.


----------



## gregzoll




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15500_100#post_23718899
> 
> 
> One foot cable from antenna to preamp. Then 6ft cable to 2-way splitter. Remote power supply at one TV downstairs.


What kind of interference are you getting? If it is on your CATV, I would have Charter come and check all connections and check for Ingress & Egress bleed on your line from the pole to the house. If it is on your OTA, you will need to go and check all connections to make sure there is no shield touching the stingers in the middle, ends are tight and on correct, no nicks in the coax.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15510#post_23718226
> 
> 
> We have Charter cable TV and internet service, as well as an OTA antenna in the attic. Would a MoCA filter be of benefit to prevent interference with OTA reception? Should it be installed in the Charter cable line, or the antenna cable? The stopband on this filter says 1125-1525 MHz, but it passes the TV band of 5-1002 MHz. But not sure if this filter is necessary, or what it would benefit. Just wondering.


A typical MoCA Filter is intended to attenuate the 1125-1550 MHz signals (ABOVE CATV) used for Cable Box to Cable Box "Whole Home" DVR functions, including exchange of signals between DLNA capable user devices (e.g. video server built into some HDTV's, game systems, PC's & external Hard Drives....manu's may have their own name for it). A MoCA Filter is located at the cable entry point, preventing YOUR internal "Whole Home" signal exchanges from interfering with your NEIGHBOR's internal signal exchanges.
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/video/ps8806/ps9095/ps10163/7016817.pd 


An OTA tuner SHOULD have an input Low Pass Filter (e.g. capacitor) which will attenuate signals above Ch69 (806 MHz)...so they have an inherent insensitivity to OTA interference above that frequency. Hence you would need to be located NEXT DOOR to transmitters operating on higher frequencies before they become a potential source of Intermodulation Interference. So a MoCA Filter on an OTA Antenna is NOT needed.


On the other hand, a 4G/LTE (U.S. Version) Filter attenuating above Ch51 (698 MHz) MIGHT be useful if you are within a few miles of 4G/LTE Cell Tower(s)...and would provide even more attenuation to interference if it WERE originating from nearby transmitters operating above 1000 MHz.:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15510#post_23706107 


If you are concerned about high level CATV signals interfering with weak OTA channel reception, first thing to do is to check for interference to go away when you disconnect and (preferably) TERMINATE the CATV coax at your entry point with a 75-ohm Termination Resistor (or some sort of 75-ohm termination, such as an old VCR or CECB Tuner box).


If you find that CATV signals are interfering with weak OTA reception, check all of your OTA Coax and internal CATV Coax wiring for faulty F-Type Connections (bite the bullet and cut/crimp new ones all around)....and if that doesn't fix the problem, call the cable company....


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15510#post_23720867
> 
> 
> A
> 
> An OTA tuner SHOULD have an input Low Pass Filter (e.g. capacitor) which will attenuate signals above Ch69 (806 MHz)...so they have an inherent insensitivity to OTA interference above that frequency. Hence you would need to be located NEXT DOOR to transmitters operating on higher frequencies before they become a potential source of Intermodulation Interference. So a MoCA Filter on an OTA Antenna is NOT needed.
> 
> 
> ....



That should be above channel 51, should it not?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15510#post_23728269
> 
> 
> That should be above channel 51, should it not?



No. TV tuners also serve as inputs for cable service which extends well beyond OTA channel 51.


----------



## holl_ands

Depends on the Tuner...whether OTA ONLY (Ch69, 806 MHz Max) or OTA + CATV....the latter typically limited to 860 MHz....and some of the NEW Cable STB/DVR's have Tuners that can tune to extended CATV frequences (up thru 1003 MHz)....and some extend even further to cover the MoCA Band.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15510#post_23729877
> 
> 
> No. TV tuners also serve as inputs for cable service which extends well beyond OTA channel 51.



Fine, I accept that point if the tuner is to be used for reception other than OTA. A Low Pass filter would be of questionable value in the above situation for other than OTA.


----------



## aim60

My Radio Shack roof mounted antenna and sparse-braid RG-59 are well past their lifetime (30+ years). I’m only 6 ½ miles from the transmitters (233-235 deg), but it isn’t possible to avoid going through some very large trees. For the last year or so, RF26 has become unreliable. Hopefully a new antenna and well shielded RG6 can make up for the trees. Unfortunately, I need to receive low vhf RF6, high vhf RF12, and uhf, so I haven’t come across many choices for a MD antenna.


The antenna feeds an Electroline FT08000 unity-gain drop amp (actually 3 db gain). Programming is recorded by HDhomerun tuners and Windows Media Center. It can be weeks or months before programs are viewed, so reception problems often aren’t discovered till well after the fact. So I’m looking for the most reliable solution possible.


I’m considering a CM-3016 (similar size to the old RS antenna), and Solid Signal Quad Shielded RG6 cable SSCBLQ. Winegard seems to have discontinued anything in the size class that will receive low vhf.


Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae9513e7b2a1


----------



## Ken.F




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *aim60*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15510#post_23749125
> 
> 
> My Radio Shack roof mounted antenna and sparse-braid RG-59 are well past their lifetime (30+ years). I’m only 6 ½ miles from the transmitters (233-235 deg), but it isn’t possible to avoid going through some very large trees. For the last year or so, RF26 has become unreliable. Hopefully a new antenna and well shielded RG6 can make up for the trees. Unfortunately, I need to receive low vhf RF6, high vhf RF12, and uhf, so I haven’t come across many choices for a MD antenna.
> 
> 
> The antenna feeds an Electroline FT08000 unity-gain drop amp (actually 3 db gain). Programming is recorded by HDhomerun tuners and Windows Media Center. It can be weeks or months before programs are viewed, so reception problems often aren’t discovered till well after the fact. So I’m looking for the most reliable solution possible.
> 
> 
> I’m considering a CM-3016 (similar size to the old RS antenna), and Solid Signal Quad Shielded RG6 cable SSCBLQ. Winegard seems to have discontinued anything in the size class that will receive low vhf.
> 
> 
> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae9513e7b2a1


The RCA ANT751 would probably work very well for you. I have one and live about 20 miles away from the transmitters in Upper Bucks. KWY on RF26 is one of my most reliable stations. I have a little trouble with WPVI on 6 and WHYY on 12 once in a great while but my antenna is inside the attic. You probably won't have any trouble with it mounted outdoors.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *aim60*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15510#post_23749125
> 
> 
> My Radio Shack roof mounted antenna and sparse-braid RG-59 are well past their lifetime (30+ years). I’m only 6 ½ miles from the transmitters (233-235 deg), but it isn’t possible to avoid going through some very large trees. For the last year or so, RF26 has become unreliable. Hopefully a new antenna and well shielded RG6 can make up for the trees. Unfortunately, I need to receive low vhf RF6, high vhf RF12, and uhf, so I haven’t come across many choices for a MD antenna.
> 
> 
> The antenna feeds an Electroline FT08000 unity-gain drop amp (actually 3 db gain). Programming is recorded by HDhomerun tuners and Windows Media Center. It can be weeks or months before programs are viewed, so reception problems often aren’t discovered till well after the fact. So I’m looking for the most reliable solution possible.
> 
> 
> I’m considering a CM-3016 (similar size to the old RS antenna), and Solid Signal Quad Shielded RG6 cable SSCBLQ. Winegard seems to have discontinued anything in the size class that will receive low vhf.
> 
> 
> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae9513e7b2a1



I wouldn't think your current antenna needs to be retired. I'd keep it for the VHF. Mount a 4 bay bowtie under it pointed in the same direction and use a combiner to join to the new coax,

The stacked bowties will give a good shot at getting a signal through the trees on UHF. I'd try first without the amp, to determine if it helps or hurts


----------



## jspENC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15500_50#post_23704331
> 
> 
> Well, for reasons you suggest, Winegard may have indeed determined that those higher gain preamps are no longer recommended for most applications with today's digital signals. Reportedly they are planning a replacement version.



The indoor splitter (pwr supply) dies on VHF after a month or so, or at least mine did, and I saw where several others commented that theirs did the same, so they need to stop using that part.


----------



## jam-h

*Pls Help Me Understand Total Extent Of Signal Loss In A Single Channel Injector/Jointenna.*



Hi All,


Hope you can you help this RF ignorant begin to understand the loss in a Single Channel Injector (same idea as the no-longer made - and less expensive - JoinTenna).


Wanted to add in a more distant (30mi LOS) weaker low UHF channel to the strong local mix (10 mi LOS), so set up a second roof antenna pointed toward it. And ordered a Single Channel Injector from TL.


It has the expected One-Channel Input (strips out the rest), the All-Channel Input (strips out the One-Channel, and lets through the rest), and a Combined Output.


I expected a signal loss, and am a curious person - but have no pro equipment, so used different types of DTV tuners to "measure" the signal strength.


If I set the it up with a terminator at the All-Channel input, the reported strength of the One-Channel goes down 10-15% from the level of a direct connection to that antenna.


If I connect both antennas, the One-Channel goes down further to 55-65% relative to a direct connection to that antenna. On one tuner, from a reported "70" direct-connect, down to the 30s (max.100). The stronger more local channels remained little changed in the 80s.


What causes that second drop when combining? From a nice signal level down to getting "iffy" for some tuners.


Is it something like a loss when filtering+a loss when combining, but that is not experienced when going through the combiner without a second signal mix being input?


The specs say One-Channel Input "insertion loss" is 2.5dB, and Output "thru-loss" is 1dB. But I have no real feel or background in RF signals or splitters and combiners, so I can't get "it" and hope someone can explain.


Thanks.


PS If it's of use, tvfool.com predicts the low UHF One Channel as -56 dBm (and Noise Margin at 32 dB) at this location and the close signals are predicted Power from -mid-20s to the -40s and NMs from the 60s to 40s.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Unfortunately built-in signal meters are pretty worthless as one does not compare with another, especially those that have simple percentage scales. The question then becomes 'Percentage of what?" which cannot be answered.


Unless you're have real reception issues, don't worry too much about it.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jam-h*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15510#post_23759771
> 
> 
> 
> Wanted to add in a more distant (30mi LOS) weaker low UHF channel to the strong local mix (10 mi LOS), so set up a second roof antenna pointed toward it. And ordered a Single Channel Injector from TL.



I assume TL is TinLee? And that you have this:

http://www.tinlee.com/PDF/AC7-customer%20general%20hookup%20Info.pdf 



> Quote:
> I expected a signal loss, and am a curious person - but have no pro equipment, so used different types of DTV tuners to "measure" the signal strength.



There's an apples and oranges comparison going on here. It's highly unlikely that any of your tuners display signal strength despite what they might say. They almost always display Signal Quality which is the same thing as signal-to-noise ratio. You really have no idea at all what's going on with the signal strength. The drop in signal quality could be from a drop in signal strength or it could be from something else.


TinLee provides custom network analyzer graphs with their components so you should be able to read the graph to see what the actual insertion loss is on the All Channel and Single Channel ports.


This may sound like a stupid question but is your single channel port tuned to the RF channel you want to combine? You didn't confuse the virtual channel with the RF channel? This is the only explanation I can think of that fits the symptoms you describe. If you think everything is correct then I'd call TinLee.


It might be helpful if we knew what channel you were combining. That along with the device specs from above might help us analyze your situation.


----------



## jam-h

Thanks everyone for the scoop on STB "signal strength" - unfortunately it's the only type of "meter" I have access to.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15510#post_23759937
> 
> 
> Unless you're have real reception issues, don't worry too much about it.



Not really concerned yet but on these DTV tuners (Zenith STB, Magnavox PVRs, etc), numbers at that level - whatever they measure - that remain steady are usually OK - but if it starts fluctuating as the seasons change, that may change. So I'm trying to look ahead.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15510#post_23759937
> 
> 
> This may sound like a stupid question but is your single channel port tuned to the RF channel you want to combine?



No stupid questions. I'm the ignorant one here. It's the right RF channel 21. And Tin Lee said that about a -2.5dB loss was expected with the the AC-7. From the graphs, it looks like -2.8 dB for the One Channel at the One Channel input, and -20dB for the One Channel at the All Channel Input.


Perhaps I was too wordy with the background info: I am really just trying to understand conceptually why the One Channel signal strength/quality number at the output *goes down more* when the All-Channel antenna input also is connected, than when it isn't. (I know what curiosity did to the cat...)


Thanks again.


----------



## deltaguy

Would the RCA 751 be successful trying to get these 3 one edge stations from the same location? Rf 10 (10.7db) - Rf 36 (17.4db) - Rf 39 (16.4db)


----------



## Calaveras

I don't see a 6.1 or a 30.1 in your TVFool report. I assume you mean 9.1 and 31.1.


The stations you want are all strong and LOS so you should not be having any issues. Bad weather does not affect TV reception. If you're having problems that you did not have before it could be a problem with you antenna.


Are you using a distribution amplifier? That would be a good idea if you're running 4 TVs from one antenna.


When the aspens lose their leaves you can determine if the trees are causing problems. It's much more likely that trees will cause problems on UHF than on VHF.


----------



## mogulman1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15510#post_23766386
> 
> 
> I don't see a 6.1 or a 30.1 in your TVFool report. I assume you mean 9.1 and 31.1.
> 
> 
> The stations you want are all strong and LOS so you should not be having any issues. Bad weather does not affect TV reception. If you're having problems that you did not have before it could be a problem with you antenna.
> 
> 
> Are you using a distribution amplifier? That would be a good idea if you're running 4 TVs from one antenna.
> 
> 
> When the aspens lose their leaves you can determine if the trees are causing problems. It's much more likely that trees will cause problems on UHF than on VHF.


Sorry..put the post in another thread when you posted this in another thread...

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1491986/outdoor-vhf-hi-and-uhf-antenna-35-miles-parker-co

 

There is a 6.1 KRMA and 31.1... is correct.


----------



## scottwood2

Hi Everyone.


I am setting up a HDTV antenna system for my Mother-in-law. I have 2 Clearstream 2 antennas that I can use for her setup. I was going to use one per TV and set them up in the house. That did not work very well as we could only get 1 station. So now I am going outside and up above the houses in the area. A few questions on this install.


1. Am I better off mounting both antenna side by side and combining the siginals? The house is wired for cable so I could just cut the cable line going into the house and hook the 1 line from both antenna to it. The other option would be to use 1 antenna for each tv (2 total).


2. Mounting the antenna. I could do a roof mount but I don't like mounting it over the shingles. I would think this could be a leak area in the future. The other idea I had was to use a 4 x 4 post vertically from the deck and support the 12 ft 4 x 4 to the sofet. No rotor here so I was thinking of useing another piece of 4 x 4 horizontally on top of the vertical post. basically a T shape. the top 4 x 4 would have 1 lag bolt in the center of the vertical support so I could swing the two antennas together to fine tune the aim. I would then use bracket so lock the top board in place once the tuning is done. I hope this makes sense?


3. I also purchase some Craig HD tuner boxes. Any thoughts on this brand. They were cheap but maybe they are not very good?


thx

Scott


----------



## rabbit73

Scott:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *scottwood2*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15510#post_23766772
> 
> 
> I am setting up a HDTV antenna system for my Mother-in-law.


What does the tvfool report for your mother-in-law look like? Please post it so that we are better able to help you.


Enter her location info here for a report:
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29 


Copy and paste in your next post the bold type link near the top of the report.


> Quote:
> 3. I also purchase some Craig HD tuner boxes. Any thoughts on this brand. They were cheap but maybe they are not very good?


Is it the CVD508?
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1172673/craig-cvd508-cecb


----------



## Mister B




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jam-h*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15510#post_23761027
> 
> 
> I am really just trying to understand conceptually why the One Channel signal strength/quality number at the output *goes down more* when the All-Channel antenna input also is connected, than when it isn't. (I know what curiosity did to the cat...)
> 
> 
> Thanks again.



I went through the exact same scenario with the Tin Lee AC-7 a few years ago. I was trying to add in a distant RF 23 to the full roster of strong local stations. I would connect the channel 23 antenna to the AC-7 first and see almost no drop in signal quality but as soon as I connected the local channels antenna the signal would drop at least 20 points, to the point of occasional drop-outs. I called and spoke to the very knowledgeable technician there in Canada, and he felt that a local RF 25 was overpowering my much weaker channel 23. He suggested another filter to greatly reduce the RF 25 signal as I was not interested in the programming anyway. I never ordered it though. I did find that if I turned my local antenna away from the towers, thus reducing their strength it would help and not lower the distant 23 signal as much. However that of course, weakened the less powerful locals to the point of causing problems.


----------



## Calaveras

It does make some sense that there could be overload in play when the main antenna pointed at most of the stations is connected. If those stations are really that strong then adding a 10dB attenuator to the All Channel port would probably solve the problem.


Jam-h - How about posting a link to your TVFool report so we could look at your total situation?


This makes a case for a rotor and a highly directional antenna in situations where you need to reject strong stations in order to receive weaker ones.


----------



## Mister B




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15540#post_23769709
> 
> 
> If those stations are really that strong then adding a 10dB attenuator to the All Channel port would probably solve the problem.
> 
> 
> This makes a case for a rotor and a highly directional antenna in situations where you need to reject strong stations in order to receive weaker ones.



I had to put in 18 db of attenuation to help the situation at all. Of course, that caused break-ups on my weakest local station. I went the A/B switch route.


----------



## scottwood2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15540#post_23767160
> 
> 
> Scott:
> 
> What does the tvfool report for your mother-in-law look like? Please post it so that we are better able to help you.
> 
> 
> Enter her location info here for a report:
> http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29
> 
> 
> Copy and paste in your next post the bold type link near the top of the report.
> 
> Is it the CVD508?
> http://www.avsforum.com/t/1172673/craig-cvd508-cecb



Thx for the reply. Here is the report

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae4bb5d855e1 



The tv tuner box I think is the 508. I did not read everything about it but there seemed to be many that did not like it.


Thx again


----------



## rabbit73

Scott:


Thanks for the tvfool report. Many of your stations are strong, but are 1 and 2Edge which means that the terrain between the transmitters and your location make the reception less reliable.


The 4x4s would work, but I would prefer to use a metal tv mast supported by the eaves.


The CS2 antenna is primarily a UHF antenna which is OK for all of the main network stations except for WJBK Fox on VHF-high channel 7.


Combining two CS2s might be more trouble than it's worth. If you really need a little more gain then I would use a DB4e.


I would first make a temporary setup outside with one antenna aimed at about 75 degrees magnetic and one tv to see what you get. For a permanent installation the coax should be grounded with a grounding block for safety; the mast should also be grounded if you want to comply with the NEC guidelines.


Yes, that box is not one of the better ones like the Zenith DTT900. Is her tv an old analog set without a digital tuner which needs a digital to analog box?


----------



## scottwood2

Thx for the suggestions. I think the 1 antenna idea to try it out is a good one. Easy to do.


Thx


----------



## jam-h

*Re: Signal Loss In A Single Channel Injector/Jointenna*


Sorry for the delayed reply - was away for a couple of days. Thanks for the great observations.


Interesting that this has come up before as an overload problem. I'd have thought things in the AC-7 would be isolated somehow.


Yes the locals are relatively strong. The closest channels, RF 18 and 24, are only a little filtered from the Ch. 21 input, and are not filtered from the All-Channel input - interestingly they don't seem to suffer obviously (multipath etc) when combined.


So far the reception remains OK at these levels (and nice weather). If it was for me, I'd have just used an A-B switch or connected the Ch 21 antenna to a second (dedicated) tuner. But I have to keep this installation simple for the user.


PS here's the requested report if interested.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46aeb7de21a59c


----------



## Mister B

jam-h: Being in the New York City area does not help your situation with so many stations on the air. At least I was on the edge of El Paso trying to get a station from New Mexico. If the viewer is that interested in the programming on RF 21 they probably would not want to filter out 24 and it is the most likely culprit being stronger than 18. I would certainly try some attenuation on the all channel antenna to see if it may help increase the 21 signal without any detrimental effects. Other than that, you may have to educate the user about A/B switches or the input button on the remote control. My 90 year old Mother could do both.


----------



## lorddylan


OK, so I'm having issues with my antennae set up.  Here are the details.

 

TV Fool info:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae735f254a3c

 

Hardware:

I have inherited the antenna I'm using as it was already installed in the house I'm renting.  Here's a pic.  Not sure what type it is, but I can guarantee it was the cheapest one the purchaser could find as he is the frugalest person I've ever met.



I've also got an RCA TVPRAMP1R amplifier and an RCA DH24SPF 2 way 2.4ghz splitter (splitter not pictured)

One lead off the splitter runs about 30 feet to my bedroom TV.

The other lead runs about 100 feet to the amp power injector then to my TiVO box.

 

As you can see, it appears as though I should be receiving most of the common channels fairly well as indicated by the TVFool report.

My issue is that I can receive FOX very well (channel 11), CBS is OK (channel 2) as is NBC (channel 4).

However, ABC is completely crap.  My bedroom TV didn't even recognize it when scanning, and my TiVO found it but never gets a signal.  It appears as though I should get it because it is the same Azimuth setting and roughly the same Distance as the channels I do get.

The only piece of hardware I haven't spent any time researching or installing is the antennae.  There are no markings or brand name on it.  Is there a way to tell what kind it is, if it's a decent unit, if it's UHF or VHF, etc?  Or should I just replace it and be done?

 

Thanks.


----------



## freetvEE




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lorddylan*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15540#post_23786483
> 
> 
> OK, so I'm having issues with my antennae set up.  Here are the details.
> 
> 
> TV Fool info:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae735f254a3c
> 
> 
> Hardware:
> 
> I have inherited the antenna I'm using as it was already installed in the house I'm renting.  Here's a pic.  Not sure what type it is, but I can guarantee it was the cheapest one the purchaser could find as he is the frugalest person I've ever met.
> 
> 
> 
> I've also got an RCA TVPRAMP1R amplifier and an RCA DH24SPF 2 way 2.4ghz splitter (splitter not pictured)
> 
> One lead off the splitter runs about 30 feet to my bedroom TV.
> 
> The other lead runs about 100 feet to the amp power injector then to my TiVO box.
> 
> 
> As you can see, it appears as though I should be receiving most of the common channels fairly well as indicated by the TVFool report.
> 
> My issue is that I can receive FOX very well (channel 11), CBS is OK (channel 2) as is NBC (channel 4).
> 
> However, ABC is completely crap.  My bedroom TV didn't even recognize it when scanning, and my TiVO found it but never gets a signal.  It appears as though I should get it because it is the same Azimuth setting and roughly the same Distance as the channels I do get.
> 
> The only piece of hardware I haven't spent any time researching or installing is the antennae.  There are no markings or brand name on it.  Is there a way to tell what kind it is, if it's a decent unit, if it's UHF or VHF, etc?  Or should I just replace it and be done?
> 
> 
> Thanks.



Looks like you need an UHF/VHF Hi antenna, ABC is VHF Hi in your area. I would get a new antenna and even put it high & outside for the best reception...


----------



## lorddylan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *freetvEE*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15540#post_23786843
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like you need an UHF/VHF Hi antenna, ABC is VHF Hi in your area. I would get a new antenna and even put it high & outside for the best reception...


 

Thank you for your input.

Sadly I can't put the antennae outside.  If I owned the house I would do it and probably have to argue with the HOA, but since I'm a renter I can't exactly take them on myself.

Any suggestion on which antennae I should use?  I've got an almost-brand-new ClearStream 2V, would that be a better option?

http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/ClearStream-C2-VHF-Long-Range-Combo-Complete.html

 

Or should I stick with a similar style to the one that's already there?  Or should I install both and put the existing one on the UHF input and the new one on the VHF side?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lorddylan*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15540#post_23786872
> 
> 
> Thank you for your input.
> 
> Sadly I can't put the antennae outside.  If I owned the house I would do it and probably have to argue with the HOA, but since I'm a renter I can't exactly take them on myself.



Is this just an HOA issue or a landlord issue? The HOA cannot tell you that you can't have an outside antenna for TV. Point them here and tell them to go pound sand.

http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-reception-devices-rule 



> Quote:
> Any suggestion on which antennae I should use?  I've got an almost-brand-new ClearStream 2V, would that be a better option?



I looked at your TVFool report and IMO anything less than a good sized outdoor antenna that clears all the local ground clutter (buildings and trees) isn't going to give you reliable reception. Messing around with attic antennas in your situation is likely to be a waste of time and money.


I'd look at the Winegard HD7698P or separate high gain VHF and UHF antennas.


----------



## lorddylan


The issue is more of a landlord issue, not the HOA.  Like I had mentioned, if I owned the house I would put up the antennae and go to battle with the HOA.  But since the legal fight would be with the homeowner and the association, I cannot involve him whatsoever.  Sucks to be a renter, but I'll deal with it for now.

Thanks for the recommendation on the Winegard, it's a bit pricey but I'll look into it.  I'm just trying to get the best signal in this crappy situation.  I may put up the ClearStream 2V and see if that's any better with the amp.  Can't hurt to try.


----------



## jam-h

*Re: Signal Loss In A Single Channel Injector/Jointenna - final*


Thanks to all. (Always impressed with the read of the situation and location report.) Working so far, but will later try the recommendations/education to optimize. Thanks again.

jam-h


----------



## Symbios




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lorddylan*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15540#post_23788004
> 
> 
> 
> The issue is more of a landlord issue, not the HOA.  Like I had mentioned, if I owned the house I would put up the antennae and go to battle with the HOA.  But since the legal fight would be with the homeowner and the association, I cannot involve him whatsoever.  Sucks to be a renter, but I'll deal with it for now.
> 
> Thanks for the recommendation on the Winegard, it's a bit pricey but I'll look into it.  I'm just trying to get the best signal in this crappy situation.  I may put up the ClearStream 2V and see if that's any better with the amp.  Can't hurt to try.


 

You already own the 2V? Put that thing up then! It's a great antenna. I mounted mine in my attic for aesthetic reasons, I'm about 40 miles from the towers and it picks up everything just fine.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

lorddlan,


Two things in particular: 1) Your RCA splitter may not be properly passing power from the injector to the pre-amp, depending on it's internal construction. It's markings suggest that the power-pass may be diode steered and are of the wrong polarity to pass power for an antenna pre-amp. If in doubt, set it up as either a single straight connection for testing or move the injector just upstream of the splitter. 2) The antenna pictured is a very very basic all-channel antenna, probably good for up to 20-25 miles under easy conditions. Obviously, it's not enough for your situation.


Since you've already got the C2V, give it a try. It's a great performer given its very small size. It's not a substitute for a 7698, but it's a fair start.


----------



## freetvEE




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lorddylan*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15540#post_23786872
> 
> 
> Thank you for your input.
> 
> Sadly I can't put the antennae outside.  If I owned the house I would do it and probably have to argue with the HOA, but since I'm a renter I can't exactly take them on myself.
> 
> Any suggestion on which antennae I should use?  I've got an almost-brand-new ClearStream 2V, would that be a better option?
> http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/ClearStream-C2-VHF-Long-Range-Combo-Complete.html
> 
> 
> Or should I stick with a similar style to the one that's already there?  Or should I install both and put the existing one on the UHF input and the new one on the VHF side?



I would keep it as simple as possible to test, use the c2 by itself straight to the TV or tivo and see what you get.


----------



## lorddylan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15540#post_23789777
> 
> 
> lorddlan,
> 
> 
> Two things in particular: 1) Your RCA splitter may not be properly passing power from the injector to the pre-amp, depending on it's internal construction. It's markings suggest that the power-pass may be diode steered and are of the wrong polarity to pass power for an antenna pre-amp. If in doubt, set it up as either a single straight connection for testing or move the injector just upstream of the splitter. 2) The antenna pictured is a very very basic all-channel antenna, probably good for up to 20-25 miles under easy conditions. Obviously, it's not enough for your situation.
> 
> 
> Since you've already got the C2V, give it a try. It's a great performer given its very small size. It's not a substitute for a 7698, but it's a fair start.


 

The splitter I purchased specifically said it was good for using inline with a pre-amp power injector, so I assume it is not causing any issues.  I will give the 2V a try and let you guys know.  Thanks for your help guys (and girls if any).


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lorddylan*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15540#post_23791098
> 
> 
> The splitter I purchased specifically said it was good for using inline with a pre-amp power injector, so I assume it is not causing any issues.  I will give the 2V a try and let you guys know.  Thanks for your help guys (and girls if any).



Some "power passing splitters" pass power on both legs whereas most pass it on only one leg. if you are using a power passing splitter that passes power on just one leg, you need to make sure that your power path is on that leg. On the label, it will be denoted by a line drawn from the common port to the power passing port. On the other hand, if you have a splitter that passes power on all ports, then it is always possible that the connection to the other port is shorting out the power.


Some splitters that pass power on all ports are "diode protected" or "diode steered", so those cannot be shorted out by an extraneous resistive load, but if you have such a splitter, the diode schematic symbol will ordinarily be drawn on the signal path lines on the label.


----------



## tylerSC

The splitter goes between the power supply and the preamp, and it is best to use one with one port power pass, indicated by the red line. The power port goes to the power supply. And it is recommended to use a DC voltage block on the other port to prevent shorting out or interference. Denny's Antenna site has good diagram on how to install preamp.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> The splitter I purchased specifically said it was good for using inline with a pre-amp power injector, so I assume it is not causing any issues.



Do not assume such. Eliminate any question by following advice.


I has been my experience that such splitters are diode steered for use with sat systems.


----------



## tylerSC

I use a 3-way Holland splitter with one port power pass, and 2 DC voltage blocks, between power supply and preamp. Works great, no problem.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Holland makes several varieties of power-passing splitters, some are single port passive, others are all-port passive. Some are specified for broadband use, others are for satellite use. All the sat-use ones use diode steering.


----------



## holl_ands

Per Holland Spec Sheet, ONLY the "D" suffix Satellite RF Splitter/Combiner Passives are Diode Steered:
http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/upload_file/Passives-Satellite_Broadband-Splitters.pdf 


And other than Radio Shack's website, I've NEVER seen a device MARKED as "Diode Steered" stocked at my Home Supply stores, e.g RCA, Philips, CE, Monster Cable, et. al.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

That's the "problem". The ones that are marked as "DC PASS" might or might not have diodes. I have an Ideal 4-port splitter from HD that exhibits this exact condition. No mention of diodes, but the pass through clearly has them when tested.


I suspect that the ones labeled for use with satellite are going to be the ones with diodes.


----------



## AntAltMike

The term, "Diode Steered" is commonly used in commercial splitter product descriptions, like on this Blonder Tongue catalog page:
http://www.multicominc.com/active/comparison/splitters/satellite/lpd_splitters.pdf ,


...and on this Holland Electronics catalog page:
http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/catalog.php?product_id=HR-S-Series-Satellite-Splitters .


Update, at October 3, 2:00 PM. I just serviced a residential antenna installation that combined two off-air antennas and used an MCR splitter with the part number TG-202D, and it had the term Diode Steered printed on its label. http://www.satelliteguys.us/attachment.php?attachmentid=8031&d=1142979073 


A lot of commercial distributors are desperate enough for sales that they now sell in small quantities, so any hobbyist that calls a commercial distributor and gets to talk with a sales rep can expect to hear them so-described.


None of the loose, cable/broadcast frequency splitters I have on my truck actually say in English that they do or do not pass power. They just use lines drawn on the labels to depict the powering path. I don't know if I've actually seen diode-protected or diode steered splitters that were limited to cable.broadcast frequency band. There are still a lot of old european distribution splitters rated for 450 to 1,750 MHz that are available cheap that pass power on all ports but are not diode protected. They are all larger than most domestic splitters and have gold finishes but no brand names. Funny thing is, many of the ones rated for 450 to 1,750 MHz severely choke out channels VHF 4 and cable 16, which are harmonics of one another, whereas the ones that say 900 - 2,150 MHz sweep out just fine over the entire cable/broadcast TV band.


In the 1990s, almost none of the all ports power passing satellite frequency (L-band cable) splitters were diode protected or steered. In that era, they were commonly used in master antenna system headends where multiple Videocipher receivers were connected to dedicated LNBs, and where the receivers were the sole source of LNB powering. The european domestic satellite systems of that era with which I was familiar used stacking LNBs, so voltage switching was not necessary to make the full L-band spectrum simultaneously available to the multiple, connected receivers.


I had one, two-way diode steered splitter where the diodes were deliberately going the "other" way. I used to actually remember why I was carrying it around. I think there might have been some old C-band stuff from the late 1980s that used a negative voltage on a center conductor.


----------



## Afrikan

hey everyone...havent' used an antenna in about 10 years. I live in San Francisco.


here are my results

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46aee3f05958c2 


I'm gonig to Target in a bit to look for an indoor antenna... i'll keep the receipt, but if anyone has any recommendations, please let me know...thankx.


----------



## Calaveras

You should not have any problems with those huge signals. Just make sure you don't buy anything with an amplifier in it. Unless you have some multipath issues a paperclip in the antenna connector will work.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Look for something that resembles a loop and a set of rabbit ears. Do not overpay for slick marketing. No amp as Chuck already mentioned.


Put the antenna in front of a window that faces Sutro for best results.


----------



## Afrikan

thankx for the response.. I'm going to get the RCA flat omi direction one. $29.99 eh.


edit- just read your post ProjectSHO89. I'll see what they have and the price difference.


----------



## Larry Kenney

I highly recommend the Mohu Leaf antenna. http://www.gomohu.com/ I've got one for use with my laptop tuner and I get some of the South Bay stations with it here in San Francisco. Channels 14, 36 and 54 come in real well from 35 miles away. They have an amplified version, but, as Chuck suggested, don't get it for use here in the city. The Sutro stations will overpower your tuner.


Larry


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> I highly recommend the Mohu Leaf antenna



That's pretty much who I was referring to when I said 'slick marketing". After having seen what was sandwiched between those two pieces of plastic ( a pic was posted last year), I've become convinced that they've just overwhelming the market with buzz and hype and there isn't much technical expertise in the antennas themselves. From the photo, it just appears to be a mediocre UHF antenna.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15540_60#post_23807319
> 
> 
> From the photo, it just appears to be a mediocre UHF antenna.



Went to their site and did not see a single technical specification for this thing. The following probably work as good or better at a fraction of the cost (


----------



## ProjectSHO89

A little better than the one on the right. I've got one of those that I got with a USB stick tuner a few years back. Very convenient for laptop or backpack portability, but very short range UHF only.


The one on the left at least has VHF elements, something completely lacking from the Leaf.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

The Leaf is a little better than the one on the right. I've got one of those that I got with a USB stick tuner a few years back. Very convenient for laptop or backpack portability, but very short range and UHF only.


The one on the left at least has VHF elements, something completely lacking from the Leaf.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15540_60#post_23808106
> 
> 
> The Leaf is a little better than the one on the right.
> 
> 
> The Leaf is a little better than the one on the right.



You're starting to sound like Jimmy Two Times from Goodfellas


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Lol. I don't think I've ever seen that one even thought it's been around a long time.


----------



## lorddylan


Thank you everyone for the assistance in getting my antennae set-up working.  In the end I used both antennaes, the ClearStream 2V and the crappy "all channel" antennae.  The pre-amp has ports for a VHF antennae and a UHF/Combo port, so I used the combo port for the 2V and the UHF port for the other one.  In the end, I get the channels I desire on both TVs.  Props to you all.

 

-Dylan


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15570#post_23807319
> 
> 
> That's pretty much who I was referring to when I said 'slick marketing". After having seen what was sandwiched between those two pieces of plastic ( a pic was posted last year), I've become convinced that they've just overwhelming the market with buzz and hype and there isn't much technical expertise in the antennas themselves. From the photo, it just appears to be a mediocre UHF antenna.



I've got an RCA "rabbit ears" antenna with a UHF loop and I've got the Leaf. I can tell you from actual experience that the Leaf works A LOT better than the rabbit ears/loop antenna, by far. The leaf might not look like much and you might think it's all "buzz and hype", but it sure works well for me. Solid signals from 35 miles away on the other side of a hill is nothing to scoff at!


Larry

SF


----------



## tylerSC

The Mohu Leaf appears to be a basic 2-bay UHF antenna inside a thin sheet of plastic. So not necessarily mediocre, just a basic design that is overhyped and overpriced due to the thin and discreet design. Perhaps they did something revolutionary with the wiring, but that has yet to be determined. And the similar Winegard Flatwave and the Walltenna reportedly have a bit better VHF performance.


----------



## jabberjaw

storytime, i guess. I have a 2008 Toshiba 32" 1080p 60Hz tv. i live in a small apartment that has a cable jack connected to the rooftop antenna. I get lots of decent channels (and tons of junk too) but it isnt some kind of cable service that was never disconnected. it is just the free stuff (abc, nbc, cbs, fox, tbs, wgn, a weather channel, discovery, MeTV, ion, CW and 3 local public broadcasting channels). I just got a 2008 40" upgrade from my mom who moved out of her house and doesnt need it. It is a 2008 Mitsubishi LT-40148 (1080p 120Hz) that looks a lot better. My tv has been used a LOT since 08 and the colors are less vibrant at the brightest settings and mom's wasnt used much at all since then. Really crisp and plays my xbox and dvds much better.


BUT the kicker is that when i run the cable into it for access to rooftop antenna absolutely no channels are found. It only scans to 69 when all of my channels I get are above that (72 and higher). I quickly tested with a paperclip and got about 6 digital channel, 2 of which were poor quality duplicates. I have since connected a longer line to the paper clip and gotten better quality reception but compared to my access from the same connection on my other tv it is really disappointing. I hardly watch the 4 main stations and watch more of my local fair (PBS and state channels) and TBS/WGN, the channels the new TV wont get. I have yet to plop down for a tv antenna in hopes of finding a solution but after checking other forums hoping someone else had a similar issue with this particular TV and getting no tech support for a longtime discontinued tv I decided to give it a go.


Some non-affiliated/non-sponsored sites have listed a few decent and cheap antennas as options and I have checked with tvloop and similar websites for what channels I can expect to get but none of them listed the channels I regularly use, particularly the local ones (for PBS programming). A radioshack $20 antenna as well as the RCA rabbit ears were reviewed best followed by the Mohu Leaf at maybe 4th or 5th best. But they all cited a fair amount of luck due to location being the real issue. My apt complex in the middle of a decent sized city (Lexington, Ky) and has no particularly tall buildings or terrain around it except for some trees directly next to my building.


Any suggestions on how to possibly connect to the rooftop before deciding on either the rabbit ears or radioshack antenna? The thread has already given some good options but based on my tv info got any other options/suggestions? Thanks!


----------



## lorddylan


My initial thoughts are that this coax outlet behind your TV is actually basic cable.  I don't believe TBS\Discovery are available over the air.  Your old TV may have just scanned for whatever channel it could get regardless of AIR vs CABLE while your new TV needs you to specify which type of signal it is.  There may even be different coax inputs for each one.  There's my $0.02


----------



## jabberjaw

thanks, but one of the cool things about the Mitsubishi is it has 2 cable jacks. I have tried both Air and Cable search for both jacks on it. And I have lived in my apt complex for 10 years and have cable internet but no basic cable on my bill. and service techs have come out over the years and gotten on the pole a few times for repairs. I doubt they just let it go untouched but I guess it is possible. but if it was I would suspect my cable channel search would have resulted in some results but they never did. Our old cable provider was recently bought by Time Warner Cable (just 3 months ago) and so far nothing has changed regarding any of my connections.


edit: also, I've seen Discovery and TBS on other antenna tvs before. I'm pretty sure they are a part of it but maybe that is regional. Particularly, Discovery's free channel isnt the same programming as the one paid for through cable services. Its all rerun programming from what I watch.


----------



## lorddylan




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jabberjaw*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15570#post_23823865
> 
> 
> thanks, but one of the cool things about the Mitsubishi is it has 2 cable jacks. I have tried both Air and Cable search for both jacks on it. And I have lived in my apt complex for 10 years and have cable internet but no basic cable on my bill. and service techs have come out over the years and gotten on the pole a few times for repairs. I doubt they just let it go untouched but I guess it is possible. but if it was I would suspect my cable channel search would have resulted in some results but they never did. Our old cable provider was recently bought by Time Warner Cable (just 3 months ago) and so far nothing has changed regarding any of my connections.
> 
> 
> edit: also, I've seen Discovery and TBS on other antenna tvs before. I'm pretty sure they are a part of it but maybe that is regional. Particularly, Discovery's free channel isnt the same programming as the one paid for through cable services. Its all rerun programming from what I watch.


Well then you got me.  No clue.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

TBS is on antenna in Atlanta only. Discovery has never been free over the air with an antenna.


If you were picking them up with an antenna, that means that somewhere nearby is a defect that is allowing the signal to be radiated.


> Quote:
> It only scans to 69 when all of my channels I get are above that (72 and higher).



Channels above 70 are being distributed by a cable company, meant for a sealed distribution system.


----------



## dbdoc

If your scan stops at ch 69, you are scanning for OTA (antenna) channels. TVs made in the 80s or earlier could pick up OTA UHF up to channel 83, but tvs made since then only scan to the highest UHF OTA channel available, which was 69. Now the highest UHF OTA channel is 51. If your 2008 Toshiba is picking up channels 72 or higher, you are finding these by doing a scan for cable channels. So I think you need to find out which input to use on the Mit and scan for cable channels.


----------



## ghostee

Hi,


Looking to pick out a good antenna for OTA. The most important stations I need to get are WCIU, WPWR, Fox, and NBC. My tvfool report is:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae6692df8ece 


My house has aluminum siding and a shingle roof. My viewing location is the basement, but I can place the antenna on the main level, second level, or attic easily enough. I'd prefer not to do an outdoor install.


I tried a RCA ANT1050, and it hasn't worked great. If I place it on the first floor, I can get some stations intermittently, but not all and not enough of the time.


I'd appreciate any suggestions you can give. I'm considering an ANT751 placed in the attic.


----------



## gcd0865

Ghostee:


Since you have two VHF-low stations in your market (WOCK-4 and WKQX-6), you'd need an antenna designed to also receive VHF-low (real channels 2-6), in addition to VHF-high (channels 7-13) and UHF (channels 14-51). At only 18 miles distance and with your strong signal strengths, I'd try the Antennacraft AC9 and mount it as high as possible in your attic (within an inch of touching the rafters) and aimed toward 94 degrees true. Keep in mind that the wide 98" rear element is required to receive VHF-low, such that your attic should be able to handle that width (even if it ends up being fairly low in your attic, that's probably okay). If you are careful about unfolding the antenna and with the packaging, you could return it if performance were not satisfactory, but I'd be surprised if it didn't work well for you, especially if the aimed direction does not aim right into any aluminum siding on your attic ends, but instead aims through plywood/shingles.

http://www.amazon.com/AntennaCraft-12-Element-HDTV-VHF-Antenna/dp/B007Z7L6F4 
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=AC9 
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11113388 


Hope this is helpful - good luck...


----------



## ProjectSHO89

WKQX is a "Franken FM" station. WOCK "might" be of interest.


Usually a small 7-51 antenna like a C2V, HBU22, 7694p, or an ANT751R is what most people would get unless you want to include the low-V station(s) mentioned. You'll have to get whatever antenna you pick above the aluminum siding.


----------



## The Hound

jabberjaw,

As others have said it appears you're pulling in basic cable.

There is something called clear QAM, I thought it no longer existed but maybe in your area it still does.

Alot of cable compnay's used to have clear QAM for basic.

Apartment complex's would pipe the clear QAM signal to each apartment thus elimenating the need for an antenna on the roof.

So I would say your old TV had a QAM tuner and your new one doesn't.

Try looking in the new TV's manual for QAM tuning, it can't hurt to look.


This is why you actually received stations with a paper clip and nothing when hooked into the wall outlet.

Because the outlet is not actually hooked up to an antenna.


----------



## lorddylan


Since you all did such an amazing job helping me with my antennae situation, I hope you can do the same for a friend of mine.  He was over this weekend and was impressed by the video quality I was getting from my antennae set-up and he wants to cut his cable too.  His problem is that he lives quite a long ways away from the major broadcast antennae in LA.  Here's his TVFool report.

 

* http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46aebc45a3490c *

 

Any suggestions on which hardware to buy, how to mount it and any other tricks of the trade?  He's almost 95 miles from the major broadcast so it's going to be tough.


----------



## CatsDogs

Hi Everyone!

I'm hoping to get some advice about choosing an antenna. I am attaching this to my roof, over 30 feet above the ground with no significant trees or hills nearby. I'm interested in mostly the major US channels, ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, etc. My tvfool report is here:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae7fae39776a 

It seems that I should be covered with a decent UHF antenna, if I am reading the channels/signals properly.


I've tried wading through several threads for recommendations and these are a few that kept popping up:
Antennas Direct 91XG Uni-Directional Antenna $63 
Winegard HD7694P $64 
Winegard HD7698P $124 
Winegard HD8200U $123 


I'm leaning towards the 91XG since it has favorable reviews, appears to suit my needs and is the cheapest of the options I found so far. But because I can install on the roof, size is not an issue and I'm thinking I should just go for the biggest possible one like the 8200U (everyone says bigger, taller, etc is better). I'd like to do it once correctly rather than find out I should have gone bigger later. So I'm open to any comments, what would you do in my shoes? Which antenna should I get? and please feel free to suggest another antenna you like. Thanks for your help.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

A Winegard 7694, Antenna Craft HBU22, RCA ANT751R, or an Antennas Direct C2V should all work for your local stations. You don't need any of those big guys, you're only 6 miles from the local broadcast towers on Sutro and San Bruno.


You have your ABC and NBC stations on VHF.


----------



## Larry Kenney

CatsDogs... You have the same situation that I have here, except that I'm on the other side of Twin Peaks. You have Sutro and Mt. Diablo to the east (104 degrees) but Mt. San Bruno is off to the south at 152º. The 91XG has too much of a limited pick up area to work here. It's great for picking up stations from a distance, but it has to be pointed right at the stations. It won't work well for picking up BOTh Sutro and Mt. San Bruno stations without use of a rotor.


What you need is something with a more general coverage area. I use the Channel Master 4228 for UHF and a Antennas Direct C5 for VHF. Pointing the antennas between Sutro and Mt. San Bruno gives me good reception of all the channels. For you, it will also help receive the stations that transmit from the hills above Fremont (1, 14, 36, 48 and 54).


The Winegard HD7694P would be another good choice since it covers both VHF (7 and 11) and UHF (all the other stations).


Once you get the antenna up you'll need to find that sweet spot for positioning the antenna to get the best reception of all stations. Something around 120º should be about right.


You can take a look at http://www.larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html to see my antennas along with a list of the stations received.


Good luck!


Larry

SF


----------



## lorddylan


Anyone have a recommendation for my post above?  Anyone?  Bueller?  Bueller?


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lorddylan*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15570#post_23867134
> 
> 
> Anyone have a recommendation for my post above?




95 miles to LA and not clear line of site. Chances are slim and none, and I'm betting on none. He might start by seeing if any of his neighbors are using rooftop antennas and if so, asking them if they get any Los Angeles recepption.


----------



## Mister B




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *lorddylan*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15570#post_23867134
> 
> 
> Anyone have a recommendation for my post above?  Anyone?  Bueller?  Bueller?



I offered some advice under the Santa Barbara locals thread several years ago. As I recall and from looking at the above TV Fool chart, only the VHF from LA is worth a try and that takes major effort. It would be better to concentrate on the nearby transmitters which take some work themselves due to being both UHF and VHF as well as different directions. For a list of what is available in the Santa Barbara area visit rabbitears.info


----------



## Ennui


Antenna1.jpg 109k .jpg file


Here is my TV Fool: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae2cec647d7e 


I have good luck with LA Stations using the antenna system shown mounted on the peak of our two story house. Using about 100 feet of coax with a preamp.


I can usually get all the LA/Riverside public TV stations: KCET, KOCE, KLCS, KPBS, KVCR. KCBS, KNBC and KTTV come in most of the time also.


The top UHF is a Winegard 9095P. It was put up first, before I needed a VHF antenna. The lower VHF is a Winegard YA1713 modified for rear mounting. The preamp is a Winegard AP-8275. The rotator is a Yaesu big unit that was used for rotating a large ham antenna previously installed there. I should mention that the preamp has inputs for both the VHF and UHF antennas.


FYI.


----------



## CatsDogs

Sorry for not replying sooner but I just wanted to thank both ProjectSHO89 and Larry Kenney for taking the time to read and reply to my post. I had read that bigger=better but from reading the tvfool and antennaweb reports for my location it seemed that a smaller antenna would work. I guess I just needed some experts to tell me it was ok and the Antenna Craft HBU22 sounds like a winner. I'll put in the order today! I'll update and edit this post when I get everything all setup. Thanks again for your help and suggestions.


For reference I decided to buy the Antenna Craft HBU22 from

$33.57 shipped from SignalSignal via Amazon 

RadioShack $37.99 with free shipping . It was slightly more expensive at RadioShack but if there's a problem with missing parts or anything I'm assuming I could do an exchange/refund at my local store. I don't think I'll need this though and went with saving the $4


----------



## tspitz


What is the best directional antenna for UHF VHF Hi when you are only 5 miles from the tower but have a giant hill in your way? Only care about getting stations from this 1 tower-ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, PBS.

 

http://www.antennaweb.org/Stations.aspx?Address=1180+South+Foothill+Drive&City=Lakewood&State=CO&ZIP=80228&Housing=M&Accuracy=8&Height=9&Obstructed=False&StationList=&Lat=39.695079&Lon=-105.151259  

 

OR TV FOOL: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae53b36e4616


----------



## tylerSC

At 5 miles, a paper clip should work, except for being blocked by a hill. That could indeed cause a problem. But one of the best long range UHF/HiVHF antennas is the Winegard 7698, or Antennacraft HBU-55. But in your situation, you may be dealing with reflections and multipath, and all sorts of issues. Maybe try a basic rabbit ears and loop, or a Clearstream2V?


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15600#post_23873028
> 
> 
> At 5 miles, a paper clip should work, except for being blocked by a hill. That could indeed cause a problem. But one of the best long range UHF/HiVHF antennas is the Winegard 7698, or Antennacraft HBU-55. But in your situation, you may be dealing with reflections and multipath, and all sorts of issues. Maybe try a basic rabbit ears and loop, or a Clearstream2V?



I agree with trying something basic first. To the southeast of this location, geology shows even taller hills than those to the northeast. A 1-edge or LOS reflection may be available aiming toward the southeast.


----------



## tspitz


Thanks folks will try a few basic antennas first and see what we get. The 7698 might scare my neighbors, but if it works I am ok with it... ;-)  Delta I actually have a little hole between my hill directly behind my home and the hills to the NE which are a bit further away-was thinking I would want to point it towards that gap NWish. Please let me know your thoughts and any other advice.  Thanks for the help!


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tspitz*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15600#post_23876391
> 
> 
> Thanks folks will try a few basic antennas first and see what we get. The 7698 might scare my neighbors, but if it works I am ok with it... ;-)  Delta I actually have a little hole between my hill directly behind my home and the hills to the NE which are a bit further away-was thinking I would want to point it towards that gap NWish. Please let me know your thoughts and any other advice.  Thanks for the help!



I meant an opportunity to the southwest. I typed wrong last night. By all means, try all directions. If there is a line of sight reflection at 5 miles from the towers, it could be considerable.


----------



## Calaveras

I wouldn't hold my breath about being able to receive DTV off of reflections. Although it can work in some situations on some stations, it's unlikely to work on all the stations and the signal quality is likely to be low on those that it does work. The problem is that with such a wide signal bandwidth you almost always have different reflections across the bandwidth which cause extreme multipath issues.


Attached is a spectrum analyzer image showing one of my "local" stations at 54 miles away over a 2 edge path to the west in yellow and the reflected path in purple off of mountains 5 miles to the east of me. The mountains are 1500' higher than I am and LOS to the transmitters but the irregular terrain causes amplitude differences and time-of-arrival differences across the channel which makes it impossible to decode in most cases. The direct path signal display is pretty flat and the reflected path is an ugly signal. It's only the front-to-back ratio of my antennas providing enough rejection of the reflections that allows me to receive the stations at all.


With DTV you can find an example of just about anything somewhere but in most cases of non-LOS reception your best bet is to use the most directive antenna you can get with the most rejection in all other directions and point on the direct path.


----------



## tspitz




> "With DTV you can find an example of just about anything somewhere but in most cases of non-LOS reception your best bet is to use the most directive antenna you can get with the most rejection in all other directions and point on the direct path."


 

What you say does make sense, I would like to get all of my main stations without constant issues... So do you think it is best to point a directional antenna up over the big hill, or try to point it around the side of the hill but slightly up? Any recommendation for a good antenna for my situation that is "the most directive antenna with the most rejection in other directions? Any way to lessen the impact of multipath-filter or something? thanks!


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tspitz*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15600#post_23879999
> 
> 
> 
> What you say does make sense, I would like to get all of my main stations without constant issues... So do you think it is best to point a directional antenna up over the big hill, or try to point it around the side of the hill but slightly up? Any recommendation for a good antenna for my situation that is "the most directive antenna with the most rejection in other directions? Any way to lessen the impact of multipath-filter or something? thanks!



Since you supplied your exact address I was able to use Google Earth to calculate the angle of your hill. Your elevation is 6093' and the closest hill is 6214' just 562' down the path. That gives you 9.2 degrees to the first hill if your antenna is at 30'. That is a significant hill. Normally I would say forget it but at only 5 miles from the transmitters there will still be signals. The problem is that reflections may overwhelm the direct path signals. There are situations where the multipath is so bad that no antenna has enough rejection to produce decodable signals.


IMO the 91XG is the most directive UHF antenna out there. It works best for me. I'm in the Sierra Nevada foothills where non-LOS and reflections are an issue for almost everyone. There are other reports that the 91XG was the only antenna that worked for some. Unfortunately there is no 91XG equivalent commercial antenna for VHF. I ended up with homemade log periodics for VHF to get a higher F/B ratio.


My situation is much different from yours. My first hill is 0.6 degrees about 1/2 mile down the path and the 2nd hill is about 5 miles down the path at a fraction of a degree.


I doubt that refracting around your hills is going to work. That's probably a larger angle than going over the top. You could try tilting up a bit but the vertical beamwidth of any TV antenna is so wide that tilting seldom does anything. If it does something then it's probably a reflection got put into a pattern null and not any increase in signal.


This is definitely a case of "pays your money and takes your chances."


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tspitz*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15600#post_23879999
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> "With DTV you can find an example of just about anything somewhere but in most cases of non-LOS reception your best bet is to use the most directive antenna you can get with the most rejection in all other directions and point on the direct path."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What you say does make sense, I would like to get all of my main stations without constant issues... So do you think it is best to point a directional antenna up over the big hill, or try to point it around the side of the hill but slightly up? Any recommendation for a good antenna for my situation that is "the most directive antenna with the most rejection in other directions? Any way to lessen the impact of multipath-filter or something? thanks!
Click to expand...


If you are adventurous, try this: Get 5 or 6 foot coax cable.. Strip one end of its connector and remove the outer sheathing from the center insulator down about 5 inches.. Connect the other end of the coax to your receiver. Fix the stripped end straight up to a wall or other stable point with tape or other means. Perform a scan . If you are getting stable reception on UHF, you have a clue, and a start as to what might be done. If you don't get anything useful, another approach will be needed. Sometimes a minimal antenna will function well in a difficult situation as yours. Sometimes not. There won't be much ventured to find out.


----------



## tspitz


fyi-tried 3 different antennas & nothing worked.  thanks for the info and advice. time to work Comcast for my basic locals and plug that into my HTPC...


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tspitz*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15600#post_23887720
> 
> 
> fyi-tried 3 different antennas & nothing worked.  thanks for the info and advice. time to work Comcast for my basic locals and plug that into my HTPC...




What specific antennas did you try and what were the results?


----------



## Arowalnayv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jimc* /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/1200#post_5100074
> 
> OK, I got a power supply for my CM 7777 pre-amp. Finally got up on the roof and got the amp up close to the antenna. I hooked up a seperate run of RG-6 from the amp to the power supply, and power supply to the VOOM box. I'm 99% certain I had it hooked up correctly, but got absolutely no signal. I talked to my installer who said I needed a diplexer with DC pass between the amp and the power supply.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is this correct?


I f you have a seperate RG6 run between the antenna pre amp and the RF input of the voom receiver with no breaks or splits in the line then NO you do not need a diplexer. Diplexer is only needed if you are running sat and OTA on the same line. The DC for the amp runs up the coax and if you haven't split the line or put anything in the line it should work.

What kind of antenna are you hooking the 7777 to? If it looks like a wing that VOOM sometimes uses it has an amp inside it. If it doesn't get voltage you'll get nothing. You either have to bypass the internal amp or get a small UHF antenna that doesn't have a built in amp. Depending how far out you are will decide what kind of antenna. need further help give us your zip for antenna recommendations.


----------



## tspitz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15600#post_23888172
> 
> 
> 
> What specific antennas did you try and what were the results?


rca 751, AD C2V & some basic indoor antenna is what I used. Results were I was getting basically nothing on the nearby tower that I wanted to get, however I was able to get ION which is like 30 miles NE of me. I guess the hill is just to big, even with the tower only being


----------



## holl_ands

It would help if you had a signal strength meter to see if signals are TOO WEAK or TOO STRONG, such as:
http://sadoun.com/Sat/Products/S/DigiairPro-ATSC-OTA-digital-signal-meter.htm 


If too weak, Go HIGHER....and if too strong, add RF Attenuator....


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tspitz*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15600#post_23910687
> 
> 
> rca 751, AD C2V & some basic indoor antenna is what I used. Results were I was getting basically nothing on the nearby tower that I wanted to get, however I was able to get ION which is like 30 miles NE of me. I guess the hill is just to big, even with the tower only being
> 
> 
> Here's what I think is happening in your situation. At only 5 miles from the transmitters you have some signal reaching you on the direct path but they're highly attenuated. You're getting reflections from other hills and buildings. This always happens but in most cases the direct path signal is so much stronger than the reflections that it produces a high Signal-to-Noise Ratio and it works fine. In your case the reflections are overwhelming the direct path signals (extreme multipath) and your SNR is poor. The problem with reflections is that there can be dozens of them coming from many different directions and they can add and subtract from each other producing that choppy pattern seen in the purple trace in my image a few posts above.
> 
> 
> Sometimes in this situation a highly directive antenna can reject the reflections enough to raise the SNR and allow the signals to be decoded. I have this situation. Only the best antennas will work here. None of the antennas you tried are directive enough.
> 
> 
> If you wanted to pursue this I'd figure out some way to get a 91XG and get it at least 10' above the roof. If this doesn't work then you probably need an antenna with 50 dB rejection in all other directions and I know of no such antenna. I'd buy it if it existed.


----------



## Pete-N2

Anything worthwhile here?

http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~wn17/ 


there is a page 2 you must see...


----------



## Dave Loudin

When Trip was living down south, he had to resort to the same technique to solve nasty multipath.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pete-N2*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15600#post_23914140
> 
> 
> Anything worthwhile here?
> 
> http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~wn17/
> 
> 
> there is a page 2 you must see...



If it works for you then go for it!


A few things to keep in mind..... You cannot see multipath on a spectrum analyzer. I can show you some signals with huge amplitude variation like in his example that decode fine and I can show you signals that look fine but will not decode. Even though he never says so, I assume the the signal on the non-shielded antenna cannot be decoded. I'd like to see some numbers on SNR improvement. See KCSO on RF 3 below. That ugly signal gives me an SNR of 24 - 27 dB. The huge amplitude variation is caused by response variations versus frequency off the back of their transmit antenna.


The "ground wire" he points out is not an RF ground on UHF. People who are not familiar with RF confuse a DC ground for lightning with an RF ground all the time.


I doubt that any multipath is coming from the two buildings. A screen around the antenna is not going to eliminate any signals reflecting off those buildings from reaching the antenna. They're too close together. The antenna pattern isn't that narrow.


There are practical limits on where you can mount a garbage can. It's a big wind load and needs a very secure mounting.


It's possible this could work for tspitz but it won't work if you're problem is pointing through trees.


What do you do for VHF? The shield needs to be 3 times as big!


----------



## holl_ands

I still think the signal is too strong....can't help but Diffract down to your location...plus bouncing back off of surrounding hills and buildings. And multipath just makes the situation worse.....try adding attenuation before taking on a specialty antenna project....


FYI: A very few, select CECBs provide actual SIGNAL LEVEL in addition to the usual SIGNAL QUALITY (based on detected bit error rate). They can be used as a very inexpensive, sorta "calibrated" Signal Level Meter:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/10320#post_16166929


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tspitz*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15600#post_23910687
> 
> 
> rca 751, AD C2V & some basic indoor antenna is what I used. Results were I was getting basically nothing on the nearby tower that I wanted to get, however I was able to get ION which is like 30 miles NE of me. I guess the hill is just to big, even with the tower only being
> 
> 
> Did your tuner scan in any of the channels you wish to receive? There are 2 vhf broadcasters that are green according to TVFool. These antennas got nothing is what I'm addressing here. I'm not asking whether or not you were able to get audio and video.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15600#post_23915432
> 
> 
> I still think the signal is too strong....can't help but Diffract down to your location...plus bouncing back off of surrounding hills and buildings. And multipath just makes the situation worse.....try adding attenuation before taking on a specialty antenna project....



I highly doubt that the signals are so strong that they are overloading the TV resulting in no reception at all, especially with the direct path blocked. Larry in San Francisco who posts on here is only a couple miles LOS from Sutro tower and not only does he receive those stations without attenuators, he receives some out of market stations. BUT.... I am not saying that overload is not an issue. There are degrees of overload. I suspect that many people who have strong signals are experiencing some overload that impact their weaker stations but they don't know it.


I have just one very strong station 14 miles LOS from here on channel 18 that the pilot carrier measures -15 dBm at the TV. The measured Noise Margin of this station is 69 dB. Normally I use a channel 18 notch filter that knocks the signal down by 20 dB.


It just so happens that there are 4 stations 90 miles away in the same direction as channel 18. One of them is on RF 49. I'm using a Sony TV so I can monitor the SNR and AGC (real signal strength). AGC readings are inverted, the stronger the signal the lower the number. With the notch filter in place RF 49 was reading 26.5 dB SNR and AGC 53%. When I bypassed the notch filter the SNR dropped to 19.7 dB and the AGC rose to 69%. This is a significant impact from just one strong station.


I can only imagine what must be happening in situations where there are several very strong signals present. They must be affecting the ability to receive weaker signals.


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15600#post_23917171
> 
> 
> I highly doubt that the signals are so strong that they are overloading the TV resulting in no reception at all. . .


Exactly, no pixie dust remedy will solve the OP's problem. Attenuators are WAY overrated!


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15600#post_23917171
> 
> 
> I highly doubt that the signals are so strong that they are overloading the TV resulting in no reception at all, especially with the direct path blocked. Larry in San Francisco who posts on here is only a couple miles LOS from Sutro tower and not only does he receive those stations without attenuators, he receives some out of market stations. BUT.... I am not saying that overload is not an issue. There are degrees of overload.



I'm actually just 3/4 mile from Sutro Tower which has the transmitters for 11 TV stations -- 1 VHF and 10 UHF. The tower is due west of me at 268 degrees. The signals are strong enough that I get perfect reception with just a paper clip stuck in the antenna connector.


However, with my CM4228 UHF/10 element VHF antennas pointed toward Walnut Grove at approximately 55 degrees, the signals from Sutro are weak enough for me to get several channels, including adjacent channels, from the Sacramento/Stockton transmitters 65 miles away. I've done some testing with several preamps, and I get no increase in signal from the distant stations. They come in best with the preamp turned all the way down. As Chuck said, I'd probably get these stations even better if I had a way of decreasing those strong signals even further.


Larry

SF


----------



## Ustauk

 Here's my TV Fool Report 


I have an RCA ANT1050 antenna. I'm in a third floor concrete high rise apartment, with no balcony. My building is surrounded by similar towers. My apartment only has windows that face north, and has apartments to the east,west,southwest, and southeast, and apartments, elevators, and stairwells to the south.


TVFool needs to update the virtual channel listing for Edmonton, as it is not current. 


With the ANT1050 antenna lying flat and facing southwest, I can get CBC (Real 42.1, Virtual 5.1), CityTV (Real 17, Virtual 51.1), and Omni (Real 44, virtual 56.1) with three to four bars.


I'm interested in particular in getting CTV (Real 12, Virtual 3.1) and Global (Real 13, Virtual 13.1). No matter how I position the antenna, I cannot seem to get more then a single bar on these channels with my current antenna. I can get three bars and clear signal on these channels from a nearby park ( TV Fool Report for the park . I'm using a Kworld ATSC USB stick hooked up to my PC inside and a netbook outside).


I'd really like to get the two above channels, since I'd to see Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., Person on Interest, and Sleepy Hollow in that beautiful, low compression OTA signal everyone keeps talking about. Is there any particular indoor antenna that would help me get these high VHF channels in my apartment? Would something with rabbit ears help? Or am I fracked by the tower position in relation to my concrete bunker of an apartment? Thanks!


----------



## holl_ands

You could try a set of VHF-Rabbit-Ears/UHF-Loop, which MIGHT provide just slightly better Gain on VHF and UHF than ANT1050...but you'll probably end up returning them:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/circularpolarized/rabbitears/hivhfrabbitears 


Gain for a DIY Circular (or Square) Loop specifically designed for Hi-VHF is several dB higher than Rabbit Ears (be sure to use Quarter-Inch Copper Tubing or RG59 braided shield type Coax...no need to remove insulation):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/vhfloop 
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/looprefl 


But you probably need a SERIOUS Hi-VHF Antenna, such as DIY Hi-VHF Hourglass-Loop, with or without a Reflector of your choice, which can be constructed from ANY convenient wire size, although Charts assumed Quarter-Inch Diameter:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/hivhfhourglassloop 


All DIY antennas above require a 300-to-75-ohm Balun Transformer and use a UHF/VHF Combiner (aka UVSJ) to combine Hi-VHF Antenna with whatever you use for UHF, such as ANT1050....or whatever you might chose to replace it with....perhaps a DIY UHF Hourglass-Loop, with or without a Reflector of your choice:


----------



## bernieoc

Notifications have stopped

Is it because I now use foxfire?

Anything I can do?


----------



## hehateme

Hi:


I am a DirecTV customer for the last 10 years. I have been thinking of cutting the cord and switching to OTA.

I began having trouble with reception on a few channels so somebody come to take a look. They will be replacing some wiring and seemed open to running new wires and install antenna for a bit extra charges.


I ran the TV fool report.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae97b84d968b 


I called up antennadirect.com and they recommended Clearstream v2. It seems reasonably priced to me.

Will this work for me or are their better options. The antenna will be mounted 25 feet high.

In addition to antenna, mounting hardware, cables is there anything else I need to purchase?


The installer may be coming on Friday evening so I am scrambling to buy everything I need before that time.



Thanks


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hehateme*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15600#post_23942089
> 
> 
> Hi:
> 
> 
> I am a DirecTV customer for the last 10 years. I have been thinking of cutting the cord and switching to OTA.
> 
> I began having trouble with reception on a few channels so somebody come to take a look. They will be replacing some wiring and seemed open to running new wires and install antenna for a bit extra charges.
> 
> 
> I ran the TV fool report.
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae97b84d968b
> 
> 
> I called up antennadirect.com and they recommended Clearstream v2. It seems reasonably priced to me.
> 
> Will this work for me or are their better options. The antenna will be mounted 25 feet high.
> 
> In addition to antenna, mounting hardware, cables is there anything else I need to purchase?
> 
> 
> The installer may be coming on Friday evening so I am scrambling to buy everything I need before that time.




Most of your stations are 1 edge but only 18 miles away. I'm not a big fan of those UHF antennas that add an element to claim VHF coverage. It might be good enough or not. In situations where the signals are fairly strong with some on VHF I prefer something in the Winegard HD769xP series. One of the smaller ones would be a better antenna on VHF. You're one problem is your ION station almost off the back of the antenna but it's very strong and LOS.


----------



## tspitz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15600#post_23916238
> 
> 
> 
> Did your tuner scan in any of the channels you wish to receive? There are 2 vhf broadcasters that are green according to TVFool. These antennas got nothing is what I'm addressing here. I'm not asking whether or not you were able to get audio and video.


Sorry for the delay in responding.  If I remember correctly, I did get the 2 VHF stations to show up in the scanner, but no reliable signal.  Unfortunately I cant really spend the time or effort on any of the other "possible" fixes since they seem to be pretty extreme without a guaranteed result at the end...  Open for options, but I don't have a lot of time or money to throw at the problem. Thanks!


----------



## ThoraX695




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15600#post_23943430
> 
> 
> I'm not a big fan of those UHF antennas that add an element to claim VHF coverage.



Isn't there a version of the ClearStream 2 that has a simple pair of rabbit ears on the back for basic (hi) VHF coverage?


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ThoraX695*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15600#post_23944872
> 
> 
> Isn't there a version of the ClearStream 2 that has a simple pair of rabbit ears on the back for basic (hi) VHF coverage?


Yes. Clearstream 2-V sold at Walmart and Best Buy for $99.


----------



## Calaveras

A single element cannot possibly cover the entire high VHF range. It's better than no element at all but it can't be great. Why not get a Winegard HD7694P that's actually designed for high VHF and is half the price?


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tspitz*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15600#post_23943787
> 
> 
> Sorry for the delay in responding.  If I remember correctly, I did get the 2 VHF stations to show up in the scanner, but no reliable signal.  Unfortunately I cant really spend the time or effort on any of the other "possible" fixes since they seem to be pretty extreme without a guaranteed result at the end...  Open for options, but I don't have a lot of time or money to throw at the problem. Thanks!



If you want to plug a cable into the television and have reliable reception for the channels you want, cable is probably your best option. Time and effort are required for antenna reception, especially when dealing with

multipath. The Georgia Tech idea isn't extreme in my opinion. It could be used with the new flat panel antennas. This would require a much smaller blind than a garbage can. I don't know of anyone who's tried this yet. Theoretically, an amped flat panel could receive green and yellow level (TVFool) signals, but there's no guarantee. I'm not forgetting you've already spent time and money trying to solve this problem. You can always try again later if you desire.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15630#post_23946257
> 
> 
> If you want to plug a cable into the television and have reliable reception for the channels you want, cable is probably your best option. Time and effort are required for antenna reception, especially when dealing with
> 
> multipath. The Georgia Tech idea isn't extreme in my opinion. It could be used with the new flat panel antennas. This would require a much smaller blind than a garbage can. I don't know of anyone who's tried this yet. Theoretically, an amped flat panel could receive green and yellow level (TVFool) signals, but there's no guarantee. I'm not forgetting you've already spent time and money trying to solve this problem. You can always try again later if you desire.



This sounds like a project for the modelers. You don't need window screen to be an effective shield at UHF. Most often I've read that the holes in the screen can be as large as 1/4 wave which is about 4" at 700 MHz. I wonder how much of the antenna needs to be shielded? The whole thing or maybe just up to the driven element? I also wonder what the optimum size of the cage is?


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15630#post_23947238
> 
> 
> This sounds like a project for the modelers. You don't need window screen to be an effective shield at UHF. Most often I've read that the holes in the screen can be as large as 1/4 wave which is about 4" at 700 MHz. I wonder how much of the antenna needs to be shielded? The whole thing or maybe just up to the driven element? I also wonder what the optimum size of the cage is?



I would prefer to see someone selling a solid metal blind. This way, with a window, the blind could help with electrical noise in addition to multipath. I've personally seen electrical noise stop reception of both VHF and UHF signals. Thus, the blind would need to surround the entire antenna. I've been tempted to pick up a baking tin at the supermarket to attempt this, though I'd expect a circular blind would be better.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Thus, the blind would need to surround the entire antenna.



If we surround the _entire_ antenna with metal...


----------



## tarpontim

  


I recently bought a house with this antenna installed. Does anyone know what type it might be and if it might be a good antenna to receive HD OTA. Broadcasts? thanks,


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tarpontim*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15630#post_23955832
> 
> 
> 
> I recently bought a house with this antenna installed. Does anyone know what type it might be and if it might be a good antenna to receive HD OTA. Broadcasts? thanks,




It probably would be if it was in working condition. Looks like it is missing the rear elements. Not sure that a mercury vapor lamp mounted on the mast is a good idea. Is that a bunch of wire in the middle? What's that disk on top?


My guess is that you should replace it with something new based on your TVFool report. Maybe you could post a link to that.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tarpontim*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15630#post_23955832
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I recently bought a house with this antenna installed. Does anyone know what type it might be and if it might be a good antenna to receive HD OTA. Broadcasts? thanks,


That antenna should work fine if it is in working order and all parts are connected properly. That is the main concern to determine. Is it missing any parts or is it broken or damaged in any way? But it appears to be a basic RadioShack or Channel Master all band antenna, receiving UHF/VHF and FM radio. But there may now be better antenna choices for your area, as Low VHF may no longer be needed. Check your TV Fool reception report to determine that. And I would move that round dish, as it could cause interference. And you will have to reconnect coax cable from the antenna and run it through the house. And possibly add an amplifier.


----------



## holl_ands

I checked back issues of Radio Shack Catalog...they never used shorter Hi-VHF elements interspersed with the Swept "VEE" Lo-VHF Elements.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15630#post_23960498
> 
> 
> I checked back issues of Radio Shack Catalog...they never used shorter Hi-VHF elements interspersed with the Swept "VEE" Lo-VHF Elements.



That's an interesting observation..

I cannot actually identify what sort of configuration is involved , except for the front UHF section.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15630#post_23960498
> 
> 
> I checked back issues of Radio Shack Catalog...they never used shorter Hi-VHF elements interspersed with the Swept "VEE" Lo-VHF Elements.


If that is the case, then it must be an old Channel Master or some other brand. Those long "swept vee" elements for VHF do look like Radioshack, but the shorter elements I guess not.


----------



## NicksHitachi

Looking for advice on OTA reception and Antenna suggestion for my area. I currently have an OTA powered antenna in the attic. It looks like this:

 


This is run to a powered splitter and then split out to all the TVs.



I currently get all the channels in Green on this report with my current setup. What antenna setup would I need to receive all the channels Green Yellow and Red? Can you guys recommend an antenna?


Link to Channel Report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae12a74faebd 

OTA Signal Report_Page_1.jpg 260k .jpg file

OTA Signal Report_Page_2.jpg 194k .jpg file


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NicksHitachi*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15630#post_23972505
> 
> 
> Looking for advice on OTA reception and Antenna suggestion for my area.
> 
> 
> I currently get all the channels in Green on this report with my current setup. What antenna setup would I need to receive all the channels Green Yellow and Red? Can you guys recommend an antenna?



Chances are there is no antenna you can put up that will receive those 2 edge stations at 60 miles 100% of the time. To have the best chance at as many of those stations as possible you need a directional outdoor antenna high enough to clear the local ground clutter (trees, buildings). You'll need a rotor for the multiple directions. I wouldn't try anything smaller than a Winegard HD7698P. I'm at a similar distance as you are with 2 edge stations and my antennas (at 70') are as seen in my avatar. I get about 99.9% reception. I would not use a preamp with that extremely strong ION station. It's guaranteed overload. It's a good candidate though for a notch filter ahead of a preamp since you don't have channels 33 or 35.


You might consider replacing that giant image in your post with a link to your TVFool report. There is additional information we can get from the link.


----------



## NicksHitachi

I updated my OP with the link to the report and removed mega pics









http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3D46ae12a74faebd


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NicksHitachi*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15630#post_23973076
> 
> 
> I updated my OP with the link to the report and removed mega pics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3D46ae12a74faebd



After looking at some of the terrain profiles for your 1 and 2 edge stations I'm more optimistic that you can receive those stations. It looks like flat land between you and the stations. Antenna height and clearing the local terrain will make a difference, much more than if your stations were refracting over mountains. If I was serious about receiving those stations in your situation I'd try a HD7698P at 50', a rotor and a Tinlee notch filter for channel 34 before a moderate gain preamp (


----------



## jabberjaw




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *The Hound*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15570#post_23833851
> 
> 
> jabberjaw,
> 
> As others have said it appears you're pulling in basic cable.
> 
> There is something called clear QAM, I thought it no longer existed but maybe in your area it still does.
> 
> Alot of cable compnay's used to have clear QAM for basic.
> 
> Apartment complex's would pipe the clear QAM signal to each apartment thus elimenating the need for an antenna on the roof.
> 
> So I would say your old TV had a QAM tuner and your new one doesn't.
> 
> Try looking in the new TV's manual for QAM tuning, it can't hurt to look.
> 
> 
> This is why you actually received stations with a paper clip and nothing when hooked into the wall outlet.
> 
> Because the outlet is not actually hooked up to an antenna.



sorry for getting to this so late. my email notifications stopped letting me know people were actually addressing my issue so I never checked back in here. (actually came in for a diff reason and found these replies.) of the answers this might be closer to the heart of it. for reminding you of my situation: i am not a cable subscriber but i do have cable internet. i have an 08 Toshiba lcd tv that i get channels with thru my wall jack in my apt complex. I also have an 08 Mitsubishi (upgrade hand-me-down tv from family) that wont get channels from the same wall jack. The Mitsu has 2 antenna jacks, both of which have been tested and get no channels.


I did get out the manuals to both tvs to see if it has clear-QAM. both of the Spec Appendices state Digital QAM 64 and 256 access (I'm assuming Digital-QAM isnt any different than clear-QAM?) but the Toshiba says the following:


Channel Coverage: Cable TV:

Mid band (A-8 through, A-1, A through I)

Super band (J through W)

Hyper band (AA through ZZ, AAA, BBB)
*Ultra band (65 through 94, 100 through 135)* -- these are the channels I'm getting, now one of which is Fox Business channel, something i never got in the past. btw, these channels change 2-3 times a year so i do have to re-search and edit the lists. it's the only real pain in getting these channels. The Mitsubishi doesnt have these options listed.


I've been in this apt for 10 yrs and when i moved in they said the jack runs to an antenna on the roof, which i havent questioned since I never had the cable company set up cable tv for me, just the cable internet. And the cable guys have been here various times for things like outages and storm damage and have been up the telephone pole a few times and none of them told me i was getting anything illegally from them so I have been under the assumption that these channels were OTA. other than TBS and Fox Business though, all of my channels were channels I'd seen on other friends no-cable arrangement, even Discovery but it is not the same daily schedule as the ones listed on tv guide, etc.


Anyway, long story short (or long enough as is) I got some rabbit ears and only get 3 of the big 4 stations and only 1 of my state programming which isnt the PBS station (which is really the deal breaker here). while its a 40"/120mHz vs my Toshiba 32"/60mHz I simply cant use it for the stations I regularly watch (notably PBS/KET). Not sure what I'll do with it now. I guess I just really lucked out with the Toshiba channel capability. But the colors are fading after prolonged daily use for 5 years and the Mitsu looks much clearer and sharper. Ive been switching between them for games/movies and tv watching. i even tried the Toshiba as a monitor but it wasnt nearly as good as my Asus 24" for gaming and the Mitsu is too huge for a monitor for me. I'd really like to get the clutter taken care of though. Ah well, bigger fish to fry for the time being. I'll revisit this quandary when time allows. Thanks for all the help, though, and sorry for not seeing this until now.


----------



## holl_ands

NicksHitachi:


Although very inexpensive, that Monoprice Antenna is a poor choice in your location since it 1) provides minimal Forward Gain, 2) is too small to provide significant performance on Hi-VHF (Ch7-13) and 3) may or may NOT have Overload issues due to the built-in Preamp. Although you probably don't have INTERMOD Distortion Overload problems in the UHF Band (requires MULTIPLE strong signals), the built-in Preamp may or may not be causing Overload problems depending on how much attenuation you have in your attic and the SINGLE-CHANNEL Overload characteristics of the Preamp and the attached Tuner.


Ch10 (192-198 MHz) is a fairly weak Hi-VHF station that is on the second harmonic of WRMR-FM (98.7 MHz, 100 kW, only a few miles away) [Who botched up the frequency allocation process so bad to let THAT happen????]. There are several other medium power FM stations near you (see www.tvfool.com or www.fccinfo.com ). So Hi-VHF signals should NOT go through a Preamp....you might also need an FM Bandpass Filter if you have reception problems.


W-G HD7698p is an Excellent choice for the preferred OUTDOOR antenna, providing 23 dB Sidelobe Suppression of Ch34 when pointed North. At about 60-deg away from max beam azimuth, HD7698 model indicates a Sidelobe Suppression of 23 dB (difference between -5 dB Forward and -28 dB at 60-deg offset):
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/W7698.html 


Antenna Direct's high accuracy model for 91XG indicates a Sidelobe Suppression of just OVER 23 dB, so it would also be an Excellent choice for a UHF Only Antenna, to be used with a non-amplified, non-rotating, hi-gain VHF Only Antenna, such as Antennacraft Y10-7-13 with a VHF/UHF Combiner (aka UVSJ) . [Or DIY Hi-VHF Hourglass-Loop Antenna mentioned below.]
http://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/Technical%20Data%20PDF%27s/91XG-TDS.pdf 

Use Radio Shack or Antennas Direct VHF/UHF Combiner (aka UVSJ) which have DC PASS on the UHF Port (unlike Pico-Macom & Holland UVSJ which is inexplicably on the Hi-VHF port).:


Hence, since you have no NEED to point Antenna towards Ch34 to receive any other station, a low-gain, high overhead, mast mounted Preamp can be used to improve sensitivity by about 10 dB, depending on your internal losses and the Preamp choice.


If you are interested in exploring your ATTIC location further, on the average there is about 14 dB +/- 7 dB indoor Loss that should provide protection against Overload by Ch34....PLUS Sidelobe Suppression. Channel Master CM4228HD or Antennas-Direct DB-8e 8-Bay Bowtie with a Preamp can be mounted on a rotator if you want to try for stations other than North of you, with a separate NON-Amplified Antennacraft Y10-7-13 for Hi-VHF permanently pointed North and a VHF/UHF Combiner.


If you are so inclined, there are numerous DIY Antennas I've analyzed and provided dimensions for (see 4nec2 Files). For UHF check out the M4 (10x9.5) with Double Angle Reflector and FF4 Free Form 4-Bay with larger Double Angle Reflector. They provide higher Raw (and Net) Gain than CM4228HD....and even usable Hi-VHF Gain that MIGHT make the Y10-7-13 unnecessary:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl 
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl 


For Hi-VHF, check out the Hourglass-Loop with a Reflector of your choice:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/hivhfhourglassloop


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15630#post_23945078
> 
> 
> A single element cannot possibly cover the entire high VHF range. It's better than no element at all but it can't be great.?



Chuck,


While the single VHF element on the C2V cannot possibly replicate the performance of a multi-element LPDA or Yagi high-VHF antenna, you might be pleasantly surprised as to it's capabilities.


If you look at pages 6 and 8 of the Tech Data Sheet at http://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/Technical%20Data%20PDF%27s/C2%2BVHF-TDS.pdf you'll see that it has pretty even gain across the 174-216 MHz band (Illus. 6) and that its VSWR is very respectable across the same band (Illus. 8).


> Quote:
> Why not get a Winegard HD7694P that's actually designed for high VHF and is half the price?



The C2V, in particular, is positioned as an item for a retail store to carry. Walmart, Best Buy, and the like tend not to want to stock larger, conventional style antennas.


----------



## NicksHitachi

Thanks for all the feedback guys.


I'm leaning towards a single antennae solution and would like to keep it simple AFA setup. I am building a HTPC to do DVR and a rotator would be a little difficult to integrate.


I am interested in the attic mounted solution and if that would work it would be preferred. I have an attic with trusses so the antennae could be mounted up there without much fuss and I wouldn't have to worry about storm damage since I live on the coast.


My goals here are to get all the four major networks:


NBC

ABC

CBS

FOX


I want the simplest and most cost effective solution to getthing these four and I'm not concerned with getting all the other channels available all the time just those main four.....


----------



## holl_ands

Gain of A-D C2+VHF is very minimal and probably won't be enough for long term reliability since Ch10 only has NM=14 dB (and even more difficult in an Attic). Always bear in mind that the underlying propagation prediction model (developed by NTIA and FCC) does NOT include Man-Made Noise, which can be much HIGHER than the assumed Thermal Noise Floor in the Hi-VHF Band and ORDERS of MAGNITUDE higher in Lo-VHF Band.


----------



## jspENC

For what it's worth, I am 20 miles away (to the north) from nick, and get channel 10 WNCT with a Winegard HD 8800 UHF with no problem, so if he puts up an antennacraft hbu-33 or the winegard 7698, I don't see why he couldn't get CBS 9.1 and CW 9.2 just fine. I do however use a Winegard pre-amp, but bypass the VHF amplification with 2 radioshack UHF/VHF separator/combiners. This gave me more signal without amping up cell towers and radio.


Thinking more... I believe what I would do is use separate UHF and VHF antennas. Point your VHF towards the WNCT tower to the north, and your UHF towards the WILM LD tower in Delco. That should get you all networks. If weather fouls up one CBS, the other one will be an alternative...


----------



## Mikullla

so i am going to cut the cable as well and try one of these antenna's. here is my tvfool report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46aea8a97d5fec 


i really just would like the major channels 2,4,5,7,maybe 9 and 11.


on my list antenna's are

clearstream

mohu

channelmaster


i dont know whether to get amplified or non amplified. looks like i'm about 40 miles from most stations. also my condo is on the 3rd floor about 30-35 feet above ground level. i have 6' tall windows that face east. any help would be appreciated.

thanks


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mikullla*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15630#post_23993318
> 
> 
> so i am going to cut the cable as well and try one of these antenna's. here is my tvfool report:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46aea8a97d5fec
> 
> 
> i really just would like the major channels 2,4,5,7,maybe 9 and 11.
> 
> 
> on my list antenna's are
> 
> clearstream
> 
> mohu
> 
> channelmaster
> 
> 
> i dont know whether to get amplified or non amplified. looks like i'm about 40 miles from most stations. also my condo is on the 3rd floor about 30-35 feet above ground level. i have 6' tall windows that face east. any help would be appreciated.
> 
> thanks



Most of your stations are west of you but your windows are on the east side. I assume this means you have multiple walls between you and the stations? If this is the case then you're likely to have problems. Make sure you get an antenna that works on both VHF and UHF. I wouldn't start out with an amplified antenna. Give it a try and see what happens.


----------



## Mikullla

all my windows are on the east side of the condo. so you think i might be out of luck? which antenna would you recommend?

thanks


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mikullla*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15630#post_23993659
> 
> 
> all my windows are on the east side of the condo. so you think i might be out of luck? which antenna would you recommend?
> 
> thanks



There are no magic antennas. Some people have said they had good luck with the Winegard SS-3000. Whatever you try make sure it says for VHF and UHF. Be prepared to move it to a different location for every station.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Mikullla*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15630#post_23993659
> 
> 
> all my windows are on the east side of the condo. so you think i might be out of luck? which antenna would you recommend?
> 
> thanks


It is not good that you have a wall between your TV and the ESB. But, you are far enough away from it that the multipath that has worried NYC viewers for over 60 tears might not be a big issue.

And, you have line of sight and are some distance above ground.

I think getting an antenna suitable for both UHF and channels 7-13, that could be easily returned, would be the starting point. Aim it west to the transmitting cluster and scan your TV for results.

You might be OK or you might not. . If not, you can return the antenna, and maybe try another. Patience and low expectations are good.

If you get mixed results, you can post on this board, and someone will try to help you find something workable.

Good Luck.


----------



## Ravenous0506

Need some help guys. I have convinced my wife that we can cut the cord and save almost $1000 a year over cable if we sacrifice a few channels. She is fairly frugal and let me proceed so I just had our service downgraded to the basic local "digital" package. However I have not been able to pull in two of her required local stations in HD via antenna. After an utterly failed attemp with a Mohu Leaf (picked up one station, channel 10) I purchased a Channel Master CM-2016 and was able to pull in all the channels except two VHF-Hi stations with the unit sitting level on the rafters in the attic pointed to ~318 degrees. Channels 8.1 which is NBC(KGW) and 12.1 which is FOX(KPTV) should be easy to pull in with a basic antenna based on the TVFool report but with my larger antenna "mounted" in the attic (25-30ft above ground level) I am not able to get those two. Could I supplement the UHF performance with a VHF element or a separate antenna? I am trying to avoid mounting it on the roof due primarily to aesthetics but also the steep pitch and 3 story drop scare the crap out of me. Any tips would be truly appreciated!

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae543006443e


----------



## SolidSignal

You absolutely can use a separate VHF antenna. Just choose a combiner that allows for a VHF input and a UHF input.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SolidSignal*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15630#post_24012449
> 
> 
> You absolutely can use a separate VHF antenna. Just choose a combiner that allows for a VHF input and a UHF input.


All you need is a UHF/VHF signal joiner. (UVSJ). Holland or Pico versions are good, and there is Antennas Direct version. Also Radioshack sells one as well. The RadioShack and AD versions allow power pass on the UHF port for a preamp. I use a Holland version with a separate UHF antenna, VHF rabbit ears, and a preamp. Works great, and optimizes strong reception of all local and distant channels.


----------



## bankmaggot

Need some help in choosing an antenna for my location.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae4a 


The ch I'm looking for are the standard local ABC(38), foxfox(13), nbc(48), CBS(39/51), plus one local call Kong(31).


If i understand the report correctly since I'm all green a top box antenna would be sufficient? If so, which one? Would the clear stream 2v or 4 be better?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bankmaggot*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15660#post_24034045
> 
> 
> Need some help in choosing an antenna for my location.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae4a



TVFool says the requested report is no longer available on the server. I think you're missing half the ID number. Try running it again and post a new link.


----------



## bankmaggot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15660#post_24035307
> 
> 
> TVFool says the requested report is no longer available on the server. I think you're missing half the ID number. Try running it again and post a new link.



Your right. Sorry I'm on mobile. Let's try it again.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae4a11b27658


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bankmaggot*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15660#post_24034045
> 
> 
> 
> If i understand the report correctly since I'm all green a top box antenna would be sufficient?




Maybe. Most of the stations you want are 2 edge which means you could be more subject to multipath issues. I think an outdoor antenna would be much better.




> Quote:
> If so, which one? Would the clear stream 2v or 4 be better?




FOX is on VHF so you need an antenna with VHF. PBS is on 9 if you're interested in that. The "4" is UHF only so the "2V" would be better.


Let us know what you try and the results.


----------



## rdcollns

Is it possible to buy to HD Home Run tuners, connect each to a separate antenna, and ask the computer to select the clearest signal for recording, or assign different channels to different antennas?


I have an attic antenna, and I'm very close to Chicago. With a massive aerial antenna I was able to pull in most of the stations pointing it directly to the city. Eventually we re-sided the house and they used foil backed siding and it killed my reception for some stations. It appeared that because I am so close to the city that the big antenna was picking up too much noise, and with its direct path blocked, the noise buried the signal. I then attached a small antenna recommended by antenna web and it gets everything pretty well except channel 2. For channel 2, I actually have to face it backwards to get reception, but then I lose other stations, and with some weather patters, I lose channel 2 as well.


----------



## rdcollns

I'm also looking to see if anyone has seen a good tutorial four mounting an antenna to a chimney, because that could possibly eliminate all of my problems.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rdcollns*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15660#post_24036374
> 
> 
> I'm also looking to see if anyone has seen a good tutorial four mounting an antenna to a chimney, because that could possibly eliminate all of my problems.



Go to Youtube and search on "chimney mount antenna" and you'll find several.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rdcollns*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15660#post_24036353
> 
> 
> Is it possible to buy to HD Home Run tuners, connect each to a separate antenna, and ask the computer to select the clearest signal for recording, or assign different channels to different antennas?
> 
> 
> I have an attic antenna, and I'm very close to Chicago. With a massive aerial antenna I was able to pull in most of the stations pointing it directly to the city. Eventually we re-sided the house and they used foil backed siding and it killed my reception for some stations. It appeared that because I am so close to the city that the big antenna was picking up too much noise, and with its direct path blocked, the noise buried the signal. I then attached a small antenna recommended by antenna web and it gets everything pretty well except channel 2. For channel 2, I actually have to face it backwards to get reception, but then I lose other stations, and with some weather patters, I lose channel 2 as well.



I don't know exactly what happened but too much noise because you're close to the city is definitely not it. The solution is to get the antenna out of the attic and above the roof like you asking about in your next post.


----------



## bankmaggot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15660#post_24036072
> 
> 
> Maybe. Most of the stations you want are 2 edge which means you could be more subject to multipath issues. I think an outdoor antenna would be much better.
> 
> FOX is on VHF so you need an antenna with VHF. PBS is on 9 if you're interested in that. The "4" is UHF only so the "2V" would be better.
> 
> 
> Let us know what you try and the results.



What about the Solid signal extreme HDB4X blade 4 antenna mounted inside my attic?


Mounting outside would be difficult. Is there any precaution to mounting antenna in the attic?


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rdcollns*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15660#post_24036353
> 
> 
> Is it possible to buy to HD Home Run tuners, connect each to a separate antenna, and ask the computer to select the clearest signal for recording, or assign different channels to different antennas?
> 
> 
> I have an attic antenna, and I'm very close to Chicago. With a massive aerial antenna I was able to pull in most of the stations pointing it directly to the city. Eventually we re-sided the house and they used foil backed siding and it killed my reception for some stations. It appeared that because I am so close to the city that the big antenna was picking up too much noise, and with its direct path blocked, the noise buried the signal. I then attached a small antenna recommended by antenna web and it gets everything pretty well except channel 2. For channel 2, I actually have to face it backwards to get reception, but then I lose other stations, and with some weather patters, I lose channel 2 as well.



Hi,


I have four HDHR tuners and three other tuners on my Windows XP HTPC. (Or Vista, W7...) I have run both Vista and W7 with the same software.


My automatic scheduling program has tables so you can configure the channels as you wish. There is a post somewhere where you can split the HDHR tuner antenna configuration, I have two, "Sutro" for three HDHR tuners and "Attic" for one.


The "Cliff Watson EPG add-on for MyHD, FusionHDTV, and HD Homerun" program requires that you purchase a $25 Subscription for "GREAT" listings.
Note: CW_EPG is a Digital Video Recorder (DVR) for HDHR tuners using the Silicon Dust supplied software.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/newestpost/659993/cliff-watson-epg-add-on-for-myhd-fusionhdtv-and-hd-homerun/60 


Join me on that thread for further discussion.


SHF


P.S. AFAIK it is NOT a "MYTH" that you can do the same with that program.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> What about the Solid signal extreme HDB4X blade 4 antenna mounted inside my attic?



The 4-bay antenna is a UHF-only design.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bankmaggot*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15660#post_24036639
> 
> 
> What about the Solid signal extreme HDB4X blade 4 antenna mounted inside my attic?
> 
> 
> Mounting outside would be difficult. Is there any precaution to mounting antenna in the attic?



There are no magic antennas despite what all the marketing would lead you to believe. There are many antennas like the HDB4X. All of them are UHF antennas but work for some people on VHF if you have a very strong VHF signal. Your VHF signals might be strong enough.


There are no special precautions for attic antennas that I know of.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bankmaggot*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15660#post_24036639
> 
> 
> What about the Solid signal extreme HDB4X blade 4 antenna mounted inside my attic?
> 
> 
> Mounting outside would be difficult. Is there any precaution to mounting antenna in the attic?



I'd try a basic rabbit ears/loop antenna first near a window. Go with a seller that allows returns. If you prefer the flat deigns like the Leaf, try one of those. Getting an idea of reception with one of these antennas will give you something to compare the performance of the HDB4X to, if you try one of those later. Bigger isn't always better indoors from antennas I've tried here. Good Luck.


----------



## bankmaggot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *deltaguy*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15660#post_24038625
> 
> 
> I'd try a basic rabbit ears/loop antenna first near a window. Go with a seller that allows returns. If you prefer the flat deigns like the Leaf, try one of those. Getting an idea of reception with one of these antennas will give you something to compare the performance of the HDB4X to, if you try one of those later. Bigger isn't always better indoors from antennas I've tried here. Good Luck.



I got a rca rabbit ears n the antenna direct c2v. I got none of the channels I wanted using the rabbit ears. For the c2v I got fox in HD when I faced the antenna out the window. The strange thing is the window is roughly 180 from the broadcast tower. I must be getting a reflection from my neighbor across the road. Picture is pretty clear. My next step is to try it in the attic and face the towers. My concern is that I got 50' Douglas fir tree 20' away in the direction of the tower running all the way down my yard like a fence. Guess there's nothing to lose until I try.


Is there a GOOD antenna to buy that would give me the best chance at picking up the signal? Perhaps a big winegard 8200? Id rather pay a little extra n get better result then pay little for a paper weight.


----------



## Larry Kenney

Bankmaggot... Looking at your TV Fool listing, you've got a lot of stations in the green zone, many of them in the same general direction of 321 to 323 degrees. I've had very good luck with the Channel Master 4228 and even though it's a UHF antenna, I've had no problems with the high VHF channels. But seeing you have several high VHF channels - 9-PBS, 11-CW, 13-FOX, plus low power K08OU on channel 8, a combination High VHF/UHF antenna would probably be better. I haven't used it, but a lot of people have received very good reception with a Winegard HD7694P. See http://www.winegard.com/offair/hdtv-outdoor-antennas.php for details on this and other Winegard antennas. I think that if you put one of these in your attic facing at 322 degrees you'll have excellent reception from at least 15 stations, including all of the other major networks, ABC, CBS, NBC, Ion, etc. You'll probably be surprised and get even more than that.


You don't need the 8200 because you don't have any stations in the Low VHF band. It would be lots of extra size for no purpose.


Good luck. Let us know what you find that works.


Larry

SF


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bankmaggot*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15660#post_24050809
> 
> 
> I got a rca rabbit ears n the antenna direct c2v. I got none of the channels I wanted using the rabbit ears. For the c2v I got fox in HD when I faced the antenna out the window. The strange thing is the window is roughly 180 from the broadcast tower. I must be getting a reflection from my neighbor across the road. Picture is pretty clear. My next step is to try it in the attic and face the towers. My concern is that I got 50' Douglas fir tree 20' away in the direction of the tower running all the way down my yard like a fence. Guess there's nothing to lose until I try.
> 
> 
> Is there a GOOD antenna to buy that would give me the best chance at picking up the signal? Perhaps a big winegard 8200? Id rather pay a little extra n get better result then pay little for a paper weight.



Good antennas are the ones that work for the desired frequencies. It's impossible to predict. Your reception problems show this. It's not that you have no signal, it's that your tuner can't deal with it. It could be multipath, but that's not guaranteed. I've been at this for quite awhile, trying to receive signal from a single antenna farm (Walnut Grove). I've needed at least 3 different antenna aims in every room. This has been true in 8 different rooms. If you have one channel at 100%, it means nothing for another. That's true, even if, it's coming from the same location.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bankmaggot*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15660#post_24050809
> 
> 
> My concern is that I got 50' Douglas fir tree 20' away in the direction of the tower running all the way down my yard like a fence. Guess there's nothing to lose until I try.



You didn't mention this before. Pointing into a thick tree on UHF can be a problem. Your indoor tests don't make the attic antenna appear very promising. If you were getting almost everything you wanted with an indoor antenna then the attic might do the trick. Instead you're getting almost nothing. Small antenna improvements only produce small reception improvements.


If you want OTA then you need to do what is required in your situation. For you that means getting your antenna above all the local ground clutter, which sounds like trees. Anything less than that will likely be unsatisfactory. If you have to move your antenna around for every station like delta guy describes then you have multipath issues. The solution to that is one high outdoor antenna.


----------



## AntAltMike

Many times over the years, I have recommended that people who are experimenting with antenna positions to buy a cheap, used spectrum analyzer and take it up to the attic or roof and wander around with it and the antenna until you find a spot where your problem channels display flat, boxcar traces. Whenever I do, respondents go on at length about how the common man can't afford or interpret a spectrum analyzer, to which I say 1) How much is your time worth, and 2) How difficult is it to distinguish between this: " VVVVV ", and this: " ---- " ?


----------



## Calaveras

One could buy an analyzer off of Ebay, use it to troubleshoot their problem, and then re-sell it on Ebay. It would be a lot cheaper than renting one.


Another possibility if one was so motivated would be to buy an analyzer and rent it out to people who need to troubleshoot a problem. I have a Rigol DSA815 which would be ideal. It can be pre-programmed for channels in all the ranges so the new user only has to recall a station and then step through the channels with up/down buttons. They don't need to learn what the many functions do to use it. They can save their own channels to a USB memory stick and then post them here if they need further interpretation. Since it's not very large or heavy the shipping costs wouldn't be too bad.


----------



## Comenius

So if you were to look for a portable spectrum analyzer on Ebay or Craigslist, what are some brands/models that you would recommend?


----------



## Vidop

Or, another device you may consider is the Digiair Pro 2. It isn't a spectrum analyzer. But, besides signal strength, you can check BRE, MER, SNR, single channel, multiple channels, etc. I have one and it works quite well. Occasionally, you will see them on sale for less than this site, or Amazon, is asking. I know I paid MUCH less than what is presently listed.

http://www.dtvgreendish.com/alignment-tools/digiair-pro-atsc-signal-meter.htm 

http://www.amazon.com/Emitor-103034-Digiair-Pro-DVB-T2/dp/B00BFBREWA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1386620594&sr=8-2&keywords=digiair+pro


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Vidop*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15660#post_24053284
> 
> 
> Or, another device you may consider is the Digiair Pro 2. It isn't a spectrum analyzer. But, besides signal strength, you can check BRE, MER, SNR, single channel, multiple channels, etc. I have one and it works quite well.



Maybe you can answer a couple of questions.


The ads make it sound like it does not show signal strength of digital signals, only analog signals. Is that correct?


What does it show in spectrum analyzer mode? It looks like the entire band only. Can you expand and examine just one channel?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Comenius*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15660#post_24053005
> 
> 
> So if you were to look for a portable spectrum analyzer on Ebay or Craigslist, what are some brands/models that you would recommend?



I wasn't thinking about a portable analyzer. I don't see any real need for that. If you have to walk around looking for a spot where a station will decode then it's likely that there is no spot that is optimum for all stations at the same time. And even you find such a spot it may move with changing atmospheric conditions.


Look for an analyzer that got up to at least 1 GHz. There are a number in the 1-2 GHz range. Higher frequency just means much more expensive. You need a Resolution Bandwidth filter of 100KHz. This is very common. It's unlikely you'll find a 75 ohm unit. Don't worry about it. Reselling a 50 ohm unit is easier. I wouldn't spend over $1000. There are a lot of nice Tektronix analyzers from the 1980's in this range. HP/Agilent units command a premium. Less well known brands are cheaper.


----------



## AntAltMike

I used to see a lot of working AVCOMs listed on eBay that wound up selling for $300 to $400, though I think they had 300 KHz bandpass filters. Not ideal, but good enough for antenna pointing. I most often use my BTSA-5, which lets me select 1 MHz or 100 KHz, and it would be a rare circumstance in which the 1 MHz resolution wasn't adequate for my purposes.


I bought this working BTDM spectrum analyzer on eBay a couple of months ago for $50, but I don't know anything about it because I just bought it for the battery pack.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261211072681?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649


----------



## Vidop




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15660#post_24053685
> 
> 
> Maybe you can answer a couple of questions.
> 
> 
> The ads make it sound like it does not show signal strength of digital signals, only analog signals. Is that correct?
> 
> 
> What does it show in spectrum analyzer mode? It looks like the entire band only. Can you expand and examine just one channel?



I do not know how you got that impression. Yes-this device DOES show signal strength of digital signals.


This is NOT a spectrum analyzer (as mentioned in my posting). When in the Spectrum MODE, this device scans all the tv frequencies and shows you a readout of all the channels it can pick up and their relative strength. And, yes, you can tell it to either look at one channel at a time or up to six channels (that you select) at a time. You can also make multiple six channel lists to go between to look at.


----------



## Vidop




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15660#post_24053685
> 
> 
> Maybe you can answer a couple of questions.
> 
> 
> The ads make it sound like it does not show signal strength of digital signals, only analog signals. Is that correct?
> 
> 
> What does it show in spectrum analyzer mode? It looks like the entire band only. Can you expand and examine just one channel?



Calaveras-If you're interested in the Digiair Pro 2, for today (Friday) only, Solid Signal has a great price for it. As I said-for today only.

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=digiair-pro-atsc&d=solid-signal-digiair-pro-atsc-spectrum-analyzer-%28digiair-pro-atsc%29&sku=700112818462


----------



## SolidSignal




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15660#post_24053685
> 
> 
> Maybe you can answer a couple of questions.
> 
> 
> The ads make it sound like it does not show signal strength of digital signals, only analog signals. Is that correct?
> 
> 
> What does it show in spectrum analyzer mode? It looks like the entire band only. Can you expand and examine just one channel?



It does show signal strength of digital signals as well as analog ones. You can set it to look at the entire spectrum or just one channel. If you PM me with specific questions and your e-mail address, I'll respond with screen captures from an actual Digiair Pro ATSC I have on my test bench.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Vidop*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15660#post_24069739
> 
> 
> Calaveras-If you're interested in the Digiair Pro 2, for today (Friday) only, Solid Signal has a great price for it. As I said-for today only.
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=digiair-pro-atsc&d=solid-signal-digiair-pro-atsc-spectrum-analyzer-%28digiair-pro-atsc%29&sku=700112818462



Thanks for the heads up but I have a spectrum analyzer.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SolidSignal*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15660#post_24069837
> 
> 
> It does show signal strength of digital signals as well as analog ones. You can set it to look at the entire spectrum or just one channel. If you PM me with specific questions and your e-mail address, I'll respond with screen captures from an actual Digiair Pro ATSC I have on my test bench.



Thanks! I was just curious about a couple of functions that were not clear to me from the list of features. I'd suggest you post a few screen shots here for everyone to see but I suppose the mods don't want that since you're a dealer.


----------



## SolidSignal

Right. I'm happy to comply with forum rules.


----------



## Calaveras

*Measuring Some Preamps*


There's a lot of discussion about preamps here with much quoting of specifications but not very much hard data. I've managed to acquire the test equipment necessary to perform the critical measurements that we want to see. In the next few posts I'll present data I've taken on some preamps. I'd consider performing measurements on more preamps and posting them here but I'm not going to buy them all. If you like what you see here and have a preamp you can part with for a week or two consider sending me a PM and maybe we can arrange for you to send it here for measurement. I think I'm up to speed on my own preamps and it won't take long to measure others.


I've run the following tests:


1) Gain - Including showing any built in filters such as bandpass or FM traps

2) Isolation - Input to Output signal leakage when the power is removed

3) Noise Figure

4) Input and Output Return Loss - Can be converted to VSWR

5) 1 dB Gain Compression


The only other test I can think is 3rd order intermods and I don't have two signal generators to do that one.


I use the following test equipment:


Rigol DSA 815 - Spectrum analyzer with tracking generator

Agilent 68207A 75 ohm directional coupler

Murray Microwave/Ailtech 7618E Noise Source

Q-Bit 35 dB Gain/3dB NF amplifier (500MHz, works past 700 MHz with reduced gain)

75 to 50 ohm transformers

28V Power Supply

Misc Pads, adapters and cables.


A few notes on measurements...


I don't have any officially calibrated test equipment. I'm not concerned about that for most of the tests. Gain, isolation and return are only comparing two values. Gain compression does require an absolute power measurement so errors in that will make the measurement wrong.


I was most concerned about noise figure. My noise source was last checked for calibration 10 years ago plus it is 50 ohm device and preamps are 75 ohms. I used a JFW 75 to 50 transformer and subtracted out the average loss of the transformer in the frequency range of the measurement from the ENR in the table on the noise source. As you will see this has produced values close to what the manufacturers claim.


I used the spectrum analyzer method of measuring noise figure which is to take the difference in noise power between noise source on and off. The Q-Bit amplifier was used to boost the noise out of the preamps to raise to it into the middle range of the spectrum analyzer.


For those interested, the formula to calculate noise figure is:


NF = 10*Log(((ENR/10)^10)/((Noise Diff/10)^10-1))


Calaveras


----------



## Calaveras

*Winegard HDP269 Preamp*


This preamp is advertised as low gain, average noise figure and overload tolerant.


Gain

 


The markers are set to the band edges. The big notch is above the FM band so I don't know what it is there for. It certainly has low gain running 10-13 dB.



Isolation

 


Power off means your signals are attenuated by 20 dB. Might be an interesting feature if you think you're still getting overload.



Noise Figure

 


I calculated noise figure for each analyzer display division representing low and high VHF and UHF. Winegard says the NF averages 3 dB and it looks to meet that. You can see external signal ingress on the noise source off trace. In UHF you can see channels 18, 21 and 25. You can see the FM band in low VHF.



Input/Output Return Loss (VSWR)

  


I calculated VSWR for the lowest return loss. I'm surprised at how poor it is. Seems like you'd want a better match to you antenna. A poor match means lost signal.



1dB Gain Compression


No graphs, I just measured it at the center of each band:


Low VHF - +13.5 dBm

High VHF - +15 dBm

UHF - +15 dBm


Calaveras


----------



## Calaveras

*Winegard AP8700 Preamp*


This preamp had considerably more to measure than the HDP269. Originally I tested all 3 bands separately but decided to combine some to reduce the number of images in this post.



Gain

 


This is the gain display with the FM trap turned off and the variable FM notch set to out of the band. The markers are set to the TV band edges. I have a schematic of the preamp and from looking at that I think what looks like bandpass filters are only simple notch filters. Not sure how they get the gain on high VHF to be lower than low VHF or UHF. That small notch on the first slope above low VHF is where the variable FM notch is tuned to.



Isolation

 


The markers are set to the TV band edges.



FM Filters

  


The first image shows the Fixed FM Trap with my markings added to show the FM band. The second image shows the range of the tunable notch filter with the fixed trap off. I think you'd want one or the other not both. It would be very hard to set the tunable filter without a spectrum analyzer. I'll bet it's rarely used.



Noise Figure

   


Here's a detailed look at noise figure. The spec is 2.8 dB and it mostly meets that. Lots of signal ingress though. I don't know what all those spikes on high VHF are. The noise figure goes up at the top end of low VHF because the FM Trap was in during the measurement.



Input/Output Return Loss - Low VHF

  


I calculated VSWR for the lowest return loss. Turns out the FM trap changes the return loss so I took curves for the trap in and out.



Input/Output Return Loss - High VHF

  


Again the FM trap changes the return loss.



Input/Output Return Loss - UHF

  


The FM trap had no affect on the UHF return loss. I continue to be amazed at the poor return loss though.




1 dB Gain Compression


Low VHF - +17 dBm

High VHF - +10 dBm

UHF - +9 dBm


Calaveras


----------



## Calaveras

*TinLee MA-25U-77A UHF Preamp*



Gain

 


The built in high pass filter is shown as part of the gain graph. Gain spec is 30 dB.



Isolation

 


Great isolation with this preamp.



Noise Figure

 


Noise figure spec is 2.0 dB. I was told by the engineer that it typically makes 1.5 dB. Looks like it makes that! No signal ingress at all.



Input/Output Return Loss

  


Best I've seen yet but not amazing. At least it's better than 2:1 in most places.



1dB Gain Compression


UHF - +20 dBm


This is the only high gain preamp that I found to work with my 525' cable run that didn't overload on my strong local channel 18. Now I know why. I still have to use a channel 18 filter to keep the TV from overloading.


TinLee is much more expensive but I guess you get what you pay for.


Calaveras


----------



## tylerSC

Looks like the Tinlee performed the best. But did the Tinlee preamp give you better signal strength measurements than the Winegards? And did it receive any weak channels that the Winegards did not? And since these older model Winegard preamps are now being discontinued, it might be of interest to compare the AP-8700 with the new LNA-200 XT Boost version. It claims better signal isolation and a lower noise figure around 1.5db. And is the Tinlee version still available for purchase, and where?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15690#post_24105876
> 
> 
> Looks like the Tinlee performed the best. But did the Tinlee preamp give you better signal strength measurements than the Winegards? And did it receive any weak channels that the Winegards did not?



This is sort of a loaded question. First it is not possible for me to do an A/B comparison as it takes me 1/2 day to swap out preamps on top of the tower and conditions change too much over time. Second, when you make incremental improvements to the hardware you get incremental improvements in reception. For example, if I upgrade a preamp with a lower noise version, replace a lossy balun with a lower loss one and raise the antennas 10' I might now receive a station 90% of the time that previously was 75% of the time. Unless you go from an indoor antenna to a good outdoor antenna it's unlikely you'll ever see a station go from no reception to 100% reception.



> Quote:
> And since these older model Winegard preamps are now being discontinued, it might be of interest to compare the AP-8700 with the new LNA-200 XT Boost version. It claims better signal isolation and a lower noise figure around 1.5db. And is the Tinlee version still available for purchase, and where?



I don't think the AP8700 or the HDP269 are discontinued but who knows, it could happen any time.


I'd be happy to measure an LNA-200 if someone wants to send me one. ADTech did some measurements sometime back on that model:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15480#post_23636098 


Yes, you can purchase Tinlee preamps and other devices.

http://www.tinlee.com/MATV_headend.php?active=4#ANTENNAPREAMP


----------



## zirkelad

Hello all. I hope this is the right place to post this question. Can anyone recommend a vhf only (lo and high band) yagi antenna with a fairly high gain. My plan is to install in the attic. The channels I'm trying to get are 6 and 12 and hopefully 8 off the back side. I have a winegard 8200u outside now which specs say has 6db gain on channel 6 which works great for channel 6.


Apparently I'm in a difficult reception area and the broadcast towers are geographically all over the place. My goal is to get a good bank of channels (at least one of each network) without having to rotate an antenna. We use media center to dvr so if the antenna is in the wrong spot we miss dr oz.


Here is my tvfool: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46aed98b2c4c67 


My plan is to point the vhf at philly to get 6, 12 and 2 (that's new), and hopefully get 8 off the back side. Use a 91xg to get uhf from philly (which is a different angle due to hills). I'll combine them with a cm7777 pre-amp and then combine with a uhf pointed west. Any lessons learned on combining the two directions would be appreciated as well.


----------



## Richard Lewis

could someone help me to find the best antenna for my location in Forest, Mississippi. Here is my TV fool report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae20ae1498d6 .


----------



## DrDon

For individual antenna assistance, find an existing thread in the Local Reception area (index is at the top) and ask there. If there is no local or nearby thread, return here and follow the instructions at the top of the section (sticky note 2, in red).


That being said..


Richard: You're probably going to need a deep-fringe UHF-VHF-Hi combo, roof mounted with a rotor and a pre-amp. It's pretty hilly where you are IRRC


Zirkelad: If 2 is a priority, then you're going to need some serious aluminum in that attic. And different antennas pointed in different directions in the same attic and fed into a combiner could be a multipath and interference nightmare. Consider an A/B switch should the combiner fail. I really would do outdoor with a rotor were I you. Here's the beast I had in my attic in Kentucky to pick up both Cincinnati and Dayton, though not all of the Dayton signals would reach me. Advantage: I was on the top of a hill.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *zirkelad*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15690#post_24111799
> 
> 
> Hello all. I hope this is the right place to post this question. Can anyone recommend a vhf only (lo and high band) yagi antenna with a fairly high gain. My plan is to install in the attic. The channels I'm trying to get are 6 and 12 and hopefully 8 off the back side. I have a winegard 8200u outside now which specs say has 6db gain on channel 6 which works great for channel 6.
> 
> 
> Apparently I'm in a difficult reception area and the broadcast towers are geographically all over the place. My goal is to get a good bank of channels (at least one of each network) without having to rotate an antenna. We use media center to dvr so if the antenna is in the wrong spot we miss dr oz.
> 
> 
> Here is my tvfool: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46aed98b2c4c67
> 
> 
> My plan is to point the vhf at philly to get 6, 12 and 2 (that's new), and hopefully get 8 off the back side. Use a 91xg to get uhf from philly (which is a different angle due to hills). I'll combine them with a cm7777 pre-amp and then combine with a uhf pointed west. Any lessons learned on combining the two directions would be appreciated as well.



I would be amazed if you could receive all the stations you want with an attic antenna. I't more likely you'll need something outside high enough to clear the local trees and buildings. Even your strongest stations aren't very strong. With mostly 2 edge paths you're almost guaranteed to have dropouts under some weather conditions even if you do everything perfectly. You won't be able to receive 8 off the back of an antenna. Don't even bother to think about combining two antennas that cover the same band on one piece of cable. The only way to really do that is to isolate one channel with a bandpass filter on one antenna and notch it out with another filter on the other antenna and then combine them. It's very expensive and largely impractical for multiple channels.


I agree with DrDon that an outdoor antenna and rotor is the most practical way to go. The alternative would be two outdoor antennas, one pointed at 109 degrees and one pointed at about 260 degrees and use an A/B switch.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Richard Lewis*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15690#post_24112433
> 
> 
> could someone help me to find the best antenna for my location in Forest, Mississippi. Here is my TV fool report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae20ae1498d6 .



You have a similar situation to zirkelad, two groups of stations in very different directions. Your terrain plots don't look as bad as his though. One antenna with a rotor or two antennas with an A/B switch mounted high enough to clear the local ground clutter and it should work. I see a caution flag on the preamp because you have two very strong local stations. You'll probably be okay though since you won't be pointing at them. Use a lower gain preamp around 15 dB to minimize overload issues. The new Winegard LNA-200 claims it handle large signals.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15690#post_24105876
> 
> 
> Looks like the Tinlee performed the best. But did the Tinlee preamp give you better signal strength measurements than the Winegards? And did it receive any weak channels that the Winegards did not? And since these older model Winegard preamps are now being discontinued, it might be of interest to compare the AP-8700 with the new LNA-200 XT Boost version. It claims better signal isolation and a lower noise figure around 1.5db. And is the Tinlee version still available for purchase, and where?


While on the subject of preamps, last weekend I switched out a Kitztech 200 and replaced it with a new Channel Master 3410 dist amp used as a preamp with remote power supply. Almost identical performance, and slightly better numbers on some weaker signals with the 3410. A very good performing amp. Although the Kitztech is very low noise, it is probably too much power at 24db because I have strong local signals nearby. Possible overload. The CM-3410 has more moderate gain at 15db and is more resistant to overload and distortion. And a respectable noise figure of 2.7db. I get the same signal strength on most channels, but some of the weaker ones are indeed better with the Channel Master. And a great deal at $23.99 when purchased. I recommend the Channel Master distribution amps as a good product where a high gain preamp is too powerful or unnecessary.


----------



## Larry Kenney

Thanks, TylerSC. Maybe I'll have to try one. Do you think it'll handle 1 megawatt signals from 3/4 mile away?


Larry

SF


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15690#post_24121954
> 
> 
> While on the subject of preamps, last weekend I switched out a Kitztech 200 and replaced it with a new Channel Master 3410 dist amp used as a preamp with remote power supply. Almost identical performance, and slightly better numbers on some weaker signals with the 3410. A very good performing amp. Although the Kitztech is very low noise, it is probably too much power at 24db because I have strong local signals nearby. Possible overload. The CM-3410 has more moderate gain at 15db and is more resistant to overload and distortion. And a respectable noise figure of 2.7db. I get the same signal strength on most channels, but some of the weaker ones are indeed better with the Channel Master. And a great deal at $23.99 when purchased. I recommend the Channel Master distribution amps as a good product where a high gain preamp is too powerful or unnecessary.



I assume that when you say "signal strength" that you mean "signal quality" since with 9 dB less gain all the signals will be 9 dB weaker. This is a good illustration as to how it is so difficult to tell the difference in a couple dB of noise figure in the real world. Any signal that is strong enough to give you an SNR in the mid 20's is unlikely to improve with a lower noise figure preamp. Very weak signals that are received only part time may improve a little with a lower noise figure if there are no other issues.


The problem with the Kitztech is that it is unfiltered and can become overloaded easily even if it has a high 1dB compression point. It only takes one very strong signal to do that. If that happens then it will negatively impact all the weak signals. I've seen a situation with my own setup where a preamp made the weak stations disappear. The solution was a one channel filter.


I have a Kitztech on high VHF but I carefully evaluated my RF environment before installing it. I have no very strong DTV stations on high VHF and the public service transmitters below 174 MHz aren't that strong either. The antennas themselves act as a filter out side of high VHF TV to reduce out of band strong signals. I also added a nearly lossless coaxial power combiner for my two antennas. With both those improvements (2-3 dB) and evaluation over time I'd say reception of my weakest station improved from 75% to 90%. The station is 110 miles away over a mountain and there is no practical antenna I can put up to get that last 10%.


I plan in the near future to lower the tower and run a set of tests on the Kitztech.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15690#post_24122731
> 
> 
> Thanks, TylerSC. Maybe I'll have to try one. Do you think it'll handle 1 megawatt signals from 3/4 mile away?
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF



It would be very interesting to use a spectrum analyzer to look at your out of the area stations to see just how strong (or weak) they actually are. It's hard to imagine that the Sutro stations are not impacting the weaker stations in some manner. It would be very interesting to place a one channel bandpass filter on a station like KMAX and see if the SNR went way up when you reduced everything else.


Another point..... At only 3/4 mile from Sutro Tower I assume that the DTV antennas are at least 1000' higher than you are. That would mean you have a fairly substantial angle to look up at the tower, at least 14 degrees. The elevation pattern of the transmitter antennas show that the ERP at 14 degrees down is about 5% of the main lobe. That means instead of 1 MW ERP you get about 50KW ERP. Still that's an immense signal at only 3/4 mile.


Considering the problems I have with just one 50KW ERP station 14 miles LOS, I can only imagine the issues a tower with 10 or more of them causes at 3/4 mile.


----------



## holl_ands

Those strong signals are ALSO reflecting BACK from houses IN the beam, which F/B Ratio might not be protecting against....

Don't even THINK about using a Preamp within about 10-15 miles of Sutro Towers....


----------



## tylerSC

If you are in a fringe area, the Kitztech may indeed perform better with more power and lower noise. But in an area with both weak and strong signals, the 3410 may indeed be a better choice. And perhaps a better choice than the Winegard 269 which is a bit noisier. But to use the CM-3410 as a preamp, you will need to purchase a separate power supply.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15690#post_24124883
> 
> 
> It would be very interesting to use a spectrum analyzer to look at your out of the area stations to see just how strong (or weak) they actually are. It's hard to imagine that the Sutro stations are not impacting the weaker stations in some manner. It would be very interesting to place a one channel bandpass filter on a station like KMAX and see if the SNR went way up when you reduced everything else.
> 
> 
> Another point..... At only 3/4 mile from Sutro Tower I assume that the DTV antennas are at least 1000' higher than you are.



Sometime when you're going to be down in this area with a little free time, let me know. Bring along your spectrum analyzer and we'll have some fun!


The Sutro antennas are all 1300 to 1600 feet above my antennas, which are at about 350 above sea level, so they're up at about a 22 degree angle.


There are only two adjacent channels on Sutro for distant stations I receive: 34 - 35 and 45 - 46, as you're aware, so that could be a help for me.


Larry

SF


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15690#post_24124928
> 
> 
> Those strong signals are ALSO reflecting BACK from houses IN the beam, which F/B Ratio might not be protecting against....
> 
> Don't even THINK about using a Preamp within about 10-15 miles of Sutro Towers....



At 3/4 mile, every preamp I've tried has definitely failed. I should probably give up.










Larry

SF


----------



## Calaveras

*Kitztech KT-200 Broadband Preamplifier*



Gain

 


Not as flat as I expected.



Isolation

 




Noise Figure

 


As expected, this preamp has superior noise figure. The problem of course is fairly high gain and no filtering. It's hard to get very accurate numbers with such low values and tiny changes in connector losses and ENR affect the noise figure. Looks to me that the average is around 0.5 dB. No signal ingress here.




Input/Output Return Loss

  





1 dB Gain Compression


Low VHF - +17 dBm

High VHF - +18 dBm

UHF - +15 dBm


----------



## daveinmaryland

I was unaware that there was SOOOOOOOO much to antennae selection!


Some background, recently purchased new home, haven't sold last home yet, so, $ is tighter than two coats of paint.


But, I also vowed to leave the likes of _CommunistCast_ behind me. My zip code is 20659 and the websites call for a "medium directional" antennae. My home has a roofline that points nearly true north, so, I'm thinking that a good antennae in my attic, on the north end, oriented at about 335 degrees would work. My home is alone on a large flat piece of farmland, where there is little obstruction from trees, no obstruction from buildings, but, subject to some hellacious winds.


My hope is to put the antenna indoors, mostly due to appearance, and some just from the weather issues. The home was built in 2006, and the north face of the home is osb sheathed, and then most likely fanfold insulation or house wrap, that I am unsure of, and vinyl sided. So, the antennae would be receiving through vinyl siding, not asphalt shingles.


The roof has a steep pitch, so the trusses have steep angles to the support legs, so, a long (8 foot or so) antennae may be impossible to attempt to install and aim for good reception. In my antennae ignorance searches, I was leaning towards the CM4228 antennae with the CM7777 amp. I would hook the antennae to the prewired RG59 that the house has running to the main patch panel under the stairs.


So, if any of you have suggestions, questions, etc, please fire away, the access to the attic is not easy, but then again, not difficult, just takes planning. I'd rather not purchase and return three antennas to find the one that works, but, am prepared to do so, should that be required. I just don't care to fund the cable companies any more.


Thanks in advance, Happy New Year to you all.


----------



## Larry Kenney

DaveinMaryland... The CM4228 is great for UHF, but only so-so for VHF channels. Do you have stations that transmit on VHF in your area? It would be best if you could post the TV Fool report for your address that you get at www.tvfool.com . That way all of us could see what stations are available on what channels, from what distances and from what directions. Then we can give you a lot better suggestion.


Larry

SF


----------



## Calaveras

A generic TVFool report based on zip code only shows a couple of high VHF stations with all signals having noise margins in the 20's. An attic antenna might be good enough but you'll need a VHF antenna to go along with the CM4228. An indoor antenna is doubtful and it wouldn't surprise me if it turned out an outdoor antenna was required. A preamp could be helpful in this situation where there are no really strong locals.


An indoor antenna at 10' shows all 1 and 2 edge stations. The situation improves a lot with an outdoor antenna at 30' with mostly LOS stations.


----------



## dlbeck

Hello all - looking for a recommendation on an antenna and preamp if required. Moving into a new house soon. Here are my tvfool results:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46aefb158d3cd4 


Thanks


David


----------



## daveinmaryland

Thanks for your patience, I hope this pastes correctly.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae5a3810d975 


Thanks again.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dlbeck*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15690#post_24147574
> 
> 
> Hello all - looking for a recommendation on an antenna and preamp if required. Moving into a new house soon. Here are my tvfool results:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46aefb158d3cd4
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> David




A small, all-channel combo like the AntennaCraft AC9 should work well. Aim it to the north-west. No amplifiers!


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *daveinmaryland*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15690#post_24148256
> 
> 
> Thanks for your patience, I hope this pastes correctly.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae5a3810d975
> 
> 
> Thanks again.



Since attic space is tight, that rules out a 10-12' antenna like you probably need.


Therefore, use two antennas that can be independently positioned. I'd suggest the DB4e for UHF and an AntennaCraft Y5713 (if space permits). If you don't have space for the Y5713, then substitute the ClearStream 5 as it's much more compact. Use an RCA TVPRAMP1R to combine and amplify the signals at the antenna location. Skip the high-gain CM preamplifier, you don't need it based on your stated requirements.


----------



## slapshot

Hello all,

Can someone offer me some antenna recommendations on what I might need for an attic mount to receive all the major networks here as posted in my tvfool results?

I do receive most of these stations with a very simple indoor antenna near the tv, except CBS.

However I have a lot of tv's but I have a nice wiring system in the house where one antenna would feed all my sets.


I have one of those Channelplus(?) cable tv amps that splits off into 8 feeds that I used for basic cable, but since everything is now scrambled, I was thinking of an antenna in the attic to regain all those free OTA stations.


The attic is fairly roomy, very high pitched roof lines with asphalt shingles, and decent access on a two story house.

Any help would be appreciated.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46aed0b99c65ea


----------



## Calaveras

slapshot - You have lots of strong stations and all LOS so it should be easy. An attic antenna ought to do the job. Make sure you get something with both VHF and UHF. Maybe your current indoor antenna doesn't have VHF and that would be the reason you don't get CBS. High VHF is a bit harder to get indoors than UHF. I'd suggest the Winegard HDP7694 or the Antennacraft equivalent.


----------



## daveinmaryland




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15690#post_24148373
> 
> 
> Since attic space is tight, that rules out a 10-12' antenna like you probably need.
> 
> 
> Therefore, use two antennas that can be independently positioned. I'd suggest the DB4e for UHF and an AntennaCraft Y5713 (if space permits). If you don't have space for the Y5713, then substitute the ClearStream 5 as it's much more compact. Use an RCA TVPRAMP1R to combine and amplify the signals at the antenna location. Skip the high-gain CM preamplifier, you don't need it based on your stated requirements.




Thank you ProjectSH089


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15690#post_24148373
> 
> 
> Since attic space is tight, that rules out a 10-12' antenna like you probably need.
> 
> 
> Therefore, use two antennas that can be independently positioned. I'd suggest the DB4e for UHF and an AntennaCraft Y5713 (if space permits). If you don't have space for the Y5713, then substitute the ClearStream 5 as it's much more compact. Use an RCA TVPRAMP1R to combine and amplify the signals at the antenna location. Skip the high-gain CM preamplifier, you don't need it based on your stated requirements.


That is probably your best suggestion. Or you could try an HBU-33 or 7696 combo antenna, but sounds like space may not allow. But you should be able to get most major DC channels. For Baltimore at 66 miles you would need a 7698 or HBU-55 outside.


----------



## slapshot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15690#post_24148754
> 
> 
> slapshot - You have lots of strong stations and all LOS so it should be easy. An attic antenna ought to do the job. Make sure you get something with both VHF and UHF. Maybe your current indoor antenna doesn't have VHF and that would be the reason you don't get CBS. High VHF is a bit harder to get indoors than UHF. I'd suggest the Winegard HDP7694 or the Antennacraft equivalent.





Thanks for the suggestion.

Price is decent too, I'll check it out.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *daveinmaryland*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15690#post_24148256
> 
> 
> Thanks for your patience, I hope this pastes correctly.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae5a3810d975
> 
> 
> Thanks again.



Your original idea of using a CM4228 would work great for you... if you can fit it into the attic. It's screen is close to 3 feet square. You'll need to add an antenna for High VHF though to get channels 7 and 9 reliably.


What I would suggest is a Winegard HDP7694. It's longer than the 4228, but not very tall and includes both High VHF and UHF capability. You should have excellent reception with one of those pointed at 337 degrees.


Larry

SF


----------



## Vidop




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15720#post_24153011
> 
> 
> Your original idea of using a CM4228 would work great for you... if you can fit it into the attic. It's screen is close to 3 feet square. You'll need to add an antenna for High VHF though to get channels 7 and 9 reliably.
> 
> 
> What I would suggest is a Winegard HDP7694. It's longer than the 4228, but not very tall and includes both High VHF and UHF capability. You should have excellent reception with one of those pointed at 337 degrees.
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF



I have a CM 4228 (old, original model). It is in my attic, and works quite well. Even though the xmtrs I receive are 47 miles away, I get a good signal level. And, what REALLY surprises me is that I get channel 8 (real channel 9) and channel 13 (real channel 13) quite reliably. Albeit, the signal level is noticeably lower than the other UHF stations I get. I concur the height of the antenna can be a problem. In my situation, though, it works out nicely. Just FYI.


----------



## hanesian

I would very much appreciate feedback and suggestions for improving my OTA reception. Here's my TVFool snapshot and link.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46aeac8e3951cd 

 



I am currently using an RCA ANT751R antenna attached to the side of my house near the peak of the roof, pointed at about 3 degrees. I think I have it high enough to avoid trees, but at 30 feet high I seem to be on the cusp of getting LOS vs 1EDGE on the closer towers, presumably because I am south of the river and so have the river bluffs several miles to my north.


I am able to pick up most of the nearby local channels, but a couple are a bit spotty in that I sometimes get them, and other times I don't. The one channel I do not get at all that I would really like to pull in is ION 41, the UHF channel located about 48 miles away at about 326 degrees. I see my antenna is rated for up to 40 miles, which was more than enough at my old house, but having relocated further away from the towers I am thinking I need to upgrade my antenna to get the results I would like in this house.


I have tinkered with adjusting the aiming of the antenna a bit, and rescanned several times. When I aim at about 3 degrees, I get decent but inconsistent reception on the signals from the nearby towers, but nothing for ION 41. When I aim at 326 degrees I have no luck pulling in ION 41, AND I lose the signals from the closer towers. Obviously I have settled for getting what I can by re-aiming at 3 degrees.


I was concerned that my long run of RG6 (about 80 feet) might be at fault so I tried adding a preamp (RCA TVPRAMP1R) that others with my antenna report success with, but it did not seem to impact the reception, so I am left thinking I need to get another antenna with better long range reception, in the hopes I could not only solidify the reception of the nearby channels and also (hopefully) pull in ION 41. I need both Hi VHF and UHF capability, but am not sure if I should try to combine my current combination antenna with a long range UHF antenna, or if that will introduce new problems so perhaps I would be best served by one new long range antenna with UHF and High VHF combination.


I can easily set up a large antenna in my large attic, or alternatively a slightly smaller one on the roof somewhere if need be. I have been avoiding the very top of the roof for appearances sake, and would prefer to avoid that or at least minimize the visual impact of any external antenna.


Any feedback or suggestions from those with more experience than me would be greatly appreciated.


Happy 2014!


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hanesian*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15720#post_24156140
> 
> 
> I would very much appreciate feedback and suggestions for improving my OTA reception.
> 
> I am currently using an RCA ANT751R antenna attached to the side of my house near the peak of the roof, pointed at about 3 degrees. The one channel I do not get at all that I would really like to pull in is ION 41, the UHF channel located about 48 miles away at about 326 degrees.
> 
> Happy 2014!



Happy New Year to you, too!


I think you need an antenna with more gain. The ANT751 is okay for the immediate area, but KPXM Ion 41 is in the yellow zone, plus it is 2 edge, which means that there are two hills or ridges between you and their transmitter. I recommend the Channel Master CM4228. It has has good gain all across the UHF band. KMSP channel 9 is your only VHF channel but it's strong enough that I think the CM4228 will pick it up okay. The 4228 has a wide pick up area so it should cover the span from 326 to 5 degrees where your signals come from. You might need to experiment to find the best direction for best overall reception.


I use the 4228 and have been very happy with the results. It pulls in stations that are 60 to 65 miles away with no problem.


Larry

SF


----------



## JayCeeNC


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae2c42369c66

 

I've decided to "cut the cord" from Time-Warner cable here in central North Carolina and I'm trying to get the optimal setup.

I’m currently using a Radio Shack 15-1874 UHF/VHF, which are the basic rabbit ears with a 7.5” loop. I have it located in my attic near the gable window about 18 feet above ground level. I have a 25-foot run of RG6 cable from the antenna to a 2-line splitter, and I run two TV’s. I receive most of the stations out to 13.8 miles, but it’s spotty after that. Most of these are southwest of me. I’d really like to pick up channel 31 (12.1) out at 37.5 miles to the northwest.

As I understand it, the loop on this antenna is for UHF and the rabbit ears/dipoles are for VHF. Is this correct?

The nearest VHF station is a PBS station 38 miles from me, but I receive PBS on a nearer UHF station anyway, so I’m not concerned with VHF reception.

If so, given that VHF is not important to me would I get better reception by using a UHF only antenna, such as the Clearstream or Antennas Direct DB line? Would they give me a bit broader coverage than the RS rabbit ears/loop I’m using now? Amplified or not?

Thanks.


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> I recommend the Channel Master CM4228.


Don't you mean the CM4228HD?? Unless you found a source for the *original* US made CM4228A.

If you did, please let us know as I'm sure many would love to have one. After all, *they are different antennas*.


But, thanks to PCI's 'con' of naming the Chinese replacement a similar model number, causing confusion and the opportunity of many suppliers to misname this replacement with the old number (dropping the "HD"), then showing the photo of the discontinued model. Of course all of this basically false advertising, misleading the public. BTW; Solid Signal *was* one of them, though it appears this isn't the case now.


.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JayCeeNC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15720#post_24160983
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae2c42369c66
> 
> 
> I've decided to "cut the cord" from Time-Warner cable here in central North Carolina and I'm trying to get the optimal setup.
> 
> I’m currently using a Radio Shack 15-1874 UHF/VHF, which are the basic rabbit ears with a 7.5” loop. I have it located in my attic near the gable window about 18 feet above ground level. I have a 25-foot run of RG6 cable from the antenna to a 2-line splitter, and I run two TV’s. I receive most of the stations out to 13.8 miles, but it’s spotty after that. Most of these are southwest of me. I’d really like to pick up channel 31 (12.1) out at 37.5 miles to the northwest.
> 
> As I understand it, the loop on this antenna is for UHF and the rabbit ears/dipoles are for VHF. Is this correct?
> 
> The nearest VHF station is a PBS station 38 miles from me, but I receive PBS on a nearer UHF station anyway, so I’m not concerned with VHF reception.
> 
> If so, given that VHF is not important to me would I get better reception by using a UHF only antenna, such as the Clearstream or Antennas Direct DB line? Would they give me a bit broader coverage than the RS rabbit ears/loop I’m using now? Amplified or not?
> 
> Thanks.


For Greensboro all you need is a good UHF antenna. A 4-bay UHF antenna should work fine, such as DB4e. And there are some cheaper generic versions from MCM or Solid Signal. But you could go to Walmart or Best Buy and get a Clearstream 4. That should do very well also. But since you have a long cable run of 25ft from the antenna to the splitter, you may want to add a distribution amp such as CM-3410 at the antenna. Or a CM-3412 in place of the splitter. And you are probably just out of range for Raleigh or Charlotte where a very good outside antenna set up would be required.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15720#post_24162803
> 
> 
> Don't you mean the CM4228HD?? Unless you found a source for the *original* US made CM4228A.
> 
> If you did, please let us know as I'm sure many would love to have one. After all, *they are different antennas*.
> 
> 
> But, thanks to PCI's 'con' of naming the Chinese replacement a similar model number, causing confusion and the opportunity of many suppliers to misname this replacement with the old number (dropping the "HD"), then showing the photo of the discontinued model. Of course all of this basically false advertising, misleading the public. BTW; Solid Signal *was* one of them, though it appears this isn't the case now.
> 
> 
> .


I think he has the original 4228, not the newer Chinese made version. I don't think the older version is available anymore. I use an original CM-4248 UHF Diamond antenna and it is an excellent performer. Sadly they are all gone also. But some of the newer PCT/Channel Master products are decent. The distribution amps are good performers, and so far their new DVR+ sounds promising. But they could do better with their current line of antennas.


----------



## hanesian




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15720_60#post_24162803
> 
> 
> Don't you mean the CM4228HD?? Unless you found a source for the *original* US made CM4228A.
> 
> If you did, please let us know as I'm sure many would love to have one. After all, *they are different antennas*.
> 
> 
> But, thanks to PCI's 'con' of naming the Chinese replacement a similar model number, causing confusion and the opportunity of many suppliers to misname this replacement with the old number (dropping the "HD"), then showing the photo of the discontinued model. Of course all of this basically false advertising, misleading the public. BTW; Solid Signal *was* one of them, though it appears this isn't the case now.
> 
> 
> .





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15720_60#post_24163015
> 
> 
> I think he has the original 4228, not the newer Chinese made version. I don't think the older version is available anymore. I use an original CM-4248 UHF Diamond antenna and it is an excellent performer. Sadly they are all gone also. But some of the newer PCT/Channel Master products are decent. The distribution amps are good performers, and so far their new DVR+ sounds promising. But they could do better with their current line of antennas.



Given this change, would you recommend an alternative to the currently available CM 4228HD? If so, which alternative?


My understanding from reading reviews is that there were some quality problems with the early 4228HDs, but that those issues appear to have been improved in the interim.


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> But they could do better with their current line of antennas.


Easy, start back up manufacturing the time proven designs back in the US.


> Quote:
> Given this change, would you recommend an alternative to the currently available CM 4228HD? If so, which alternative?


The original 4228a sold fro around $50. This replacement is selling for 2x the price $100 and more. The one problem with the original was it was shipped assembled which placed it in a 'oversize' category for shipping, which in turn doubled the shipping. That could of been solved by a redesign of the frame so that it was shipped 'knocked down' just requiring some assembly. I think that is what killed that version.

The funny thing is, people are spending the same for this import that the original sold for including shipping.










As far as a replacement, I guess the replacement is about it. Winegard as a 8 bay reflector, but the design is less than stellar. (It is still made here.)
http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload/HD-8800.pdf 


> Quote:
> My understanding from reading reviews is that there were some quality problems with the early 4228HDs, but that those issues appear to have been improved in the interim.


That is my understanding also.


----------



## hanesian

Thanks for the help, Larry. I appreciate it. I think I'll give the CM 4228 HD a shot.


Now I have to determine if the preamp I just bought (RCA TVPRAMP1R) for my old RCA antenna would work for the CM 4228, or if I should return the preamp and perhaps add the CM specific preamp like the CM 7777 or 7778. Probably try it without any preamp first, and then add one if need be.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15720_60#post_24157711
> 
> 
> Happy New Year to you, too!
> 
> 
> I think you need an antenna with more gain. The ANT751 is okay for the immediate area, but KPXM Ion 41 is in the yellow zone, plus it is 2 edge, which means that there are two hills or ridges between you and their transmitter. I recommend the Channel Master CM4228. It has has good gain all across the UHF band. KMSP channel 9 is your only VHF channel but it's strong enough that I think the CM4228 will pick it up okay. The 4228 has a wide pick up area so it should cover the span from 326 to 5 degrees where your signals come from. You might need to experiment to find the best direction for best overall reception.
> 
> 
> I use the 4228 and have been very happy with the results. It pulls in stations that are 60 to 65 miles away with no problem.
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hanesian*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15720#post_24164252
> 
> 
> Thanks for the help, Larry. I appreciate it. I think I'll give the CM 4228 HD a shot.
> 
> 
> Now I have to determine if the preamp I just bought (RCA TVPRAMP1R) for my old RCA antenna would work for the CM 4228, or if I should return the preamp and perhaps add the CM specific preamp like the CM 7777 or 7778. Probably try it without any preamp first, and then add one if need be.



The RCA preamp is fine if you actually needed a preamp. It's actually a (mostly) clone of the old CM7778.


Most of your signals are already quite strong, so you do not need one and you would be advised to avoid one.


----------



## JayCeeNC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15720#post_24162978
> 
> 
> 
> For Greensboro all you need is a good UHF antenna. A 4-bay UHF antenna should work fine, such as DB4e. And there are some cheaper generic versions from MCM or Solid Signal. But you could go to Walmart or Best Buy and get a Clearstream 4. That should do very well also. But since you have a long cable run of 25ft from the antenna to the splitter, you may want to add a distribution amp such as CM-3410 at the antenna. Or a CM-3412 in place of the splitter. And you are probably just out of range for Raleigh or Charlotte where a very good outside antenna set up would be required.


Thanks, Tyler.

The only Clearstream4 in this area is at Best Buy for $150. Nobody else carries anything other than the flat mat-type or rabbit ear antennas. I'll shop around online

Of the two options, CM-3410 at the antenna or CM-3412 replacing the splitter, which would give me the best ultimate signal? I can do either; replacing the splitter is the easiest because I have an electrical outlet nearby, and none in the attic.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JayCeeNC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15720#post_24165147
> 
> 
> Thanks, Tyler.
> 
> The only Clearstream4 in this area is at Best Buy for $150. Nobody else carries anything other than the flat mat-type or rabbit ear antennas. I'll shop around online
> 
> Of the two options, CM-3410 at the antenna or CM-3412 replacing the splitter, which would give me the best ultimate signal? I can do either; replacing the splitter is the easiest because I have an electrical outlet nearby, and none in the attic.


Placing the amp closer to the antenna will help to avoid signal loss. Just order a remote power supply to go with the 3410. Connect the amp at the antenna with a 3ft coax cord. Place the power supply downstairs right before the splitter. That should work. But if you feel your signals are strong, you could use a 3412 in place of the splitter.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *videobruce*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15720#post_24162803
> 
> 
> Don't you mean the CM4228HD?? Unless you found a source for the *original* US made CM4228A.
> 
> If you did, please let us know as I'm sure many would love to have one. After all, *they are different antennas*.
> 
> 
> But, thanks to PCI's 'con' of naming the Chinese replacement a similar model number, causing confusion and the opportunity of many suppliers to misname this replacement with the old number (dropping the "HD"), then showing the photo of the discontinued model. Of course all of this basically false advertising, misleading the public. BTW; Solid Signal *was* one of them, though it appears this isn't the case now.
> 
> 
> .



Yes, I know they're different antennas, I didn't realize the new 4228HD was that much different from the original. The only thing I've heard is that the new ones aren't as good on high VHF.


Fill us in if you know what else is different.


Larry

SF


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> The only thing I've heard is that the new ones aren't as good on high VHF.


It's a completely different (cheaper to manufacture) reflector.


----------



## tylerSC

Well supposedly the newer CM-4228HD is actually a better performer on HiVHF. They even advertise that on the box. It's not a bad antenna, just not the same as the original.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *JayCeeNC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15720#post_24160983
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae2c42369c66
> 
> 
> I've decided to "cut the cord" from Time-Warner cable here in central North Carolina and I'm trying to get the optimal setup.
> 
> I’m currently using a Radio Shack 15-1874 UHF/VHF, which are the basic rabbit ears with a 7.5” loop. I have it located in my attic near the gable window about 18 feet above ground level. I have a 25-foot run of RG6 cable from the antenna to a 2-line splitter, and I run two TV’s. I receive most of the stations out to 13.8 miles, but it’s spotty after that. Most of these are southwest of me. I’d really like to pick up channel 31 (12.1) out at 37.5 miles to the northwest.
> 
> As I understand it, the loop on this antenna is for UHF and the rabbit ears/dipoles are for VHF. Is this correct?
> 
> The nearest VHF station is a PBS station 38 miles from me, but I receive PBS on a nearer UHF station anyway, so I’m not concerned with VHF reception.
> 
> If so, given that VHF is not important to me would I get better reception by using a UHF only antenna, such as the Clearstream or Antennas Direct DB line? Would they give me a bit broader coverage than the RS rabbit ears/loop I’m using now? Amplified or not?
> 
> Thanks.



You have some options. I would post on this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/137768/greensboro-nc-hdtv 

and, some of us will help


----------



## JayCeeNC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15720#post_24169617
> 
> 
> 
> You have some options. I would post on this thread:
> http://www.avsforum.com/t/137768/greensboro-nc-hdtv
> 
> and, some of us will help


Thanks, difuse.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15720#post_24169617
> 
> 
> You have some options. I would post on this thread:
> http://www.avsforum.com/t/137768/greensboro-nc-hdtv
> 
> and, some of us will help


Yes perhaps post in the Greensboro thread so some of the experts here can evaluate your plans and results.


----------



## war72


I would very much appreciate feedback and suggestions for improving my OTA reception. Here's my TVFool snapshot and link..



 

I did get this antenna, mounted in my attic (2-storey house) with no success. Will an amplifier work, or do I need a bigger antenna mounted on the roof?

http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/ez_hd_tv_Antenna.html

Thanks.


----------



## ctdish

Do you get any channels and if so which ones? Which channels do you want? I would expect that your antenna would get the stations with a green background if mounted outside. It might also be OK in an attic depending on the roof and wall construction. In either case it needs to be aimed south. In your link picture it's pointed pretty much left. ( the short elements towards the pointing direction)

John


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *war72*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15720#post_24179509
> 
> 
> I would very much appreciate feedback and suggestions for improving my OTA reception. Here's my TVFool snapshot and link..
> 
> 
> 
> I did get this antenna, mounted in my attic (2-storey house) with no success. Will an amplifier work, or do I need a bigger antenna mounted on the roof?
> http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/ez_hd_tv_Antenna.html
> 
> Thanks.



Are you receiving anything? I think you should be, as the terrain from Houston to Conroe is not very severe.


----------



## tspitz


I am trying to set my Grandma up in NE with an antenna, but just noticed they have several VHF Lo stations-Antenna Web attached:

Will this Antennas Direct C2-V-CJM ClearStream 2-V Long Range UHF/VHF Indoor/Outdoor DTV Antenna work for VHF Low nearby and then also pull in UHF further away from a slightly different direction-just trying to get major networks? ~ http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007RH5GZI/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2Y2CMGI7DVJC6&coliid=I12B89FJJH7S40


----------



## ProjectSHO89

She'll probably have to settle for Fox in SD, but other than that it ought to work okay. Fox in HD is on channel 6 and is quite a ways off and is pretty weak. That station will probably require a larger low-V antenna.


Be aware that the antennapoint link you posted contains the full street address entered. You'll probably want to delete that!


Here's the TVFool plot, the preferred analysis tool: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b941904886a58


----------



## tspitz




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15720#post_24181637
> 
> 
> She'll probably have to settle for Fox in SD, but other than that it ought to work okay. Fox in HD is on channel 6 and is quite a ways off and is pretty weak. That station will probably require a larger low-V antenna.
> 
> 
> Be aware that the antennapoint link you posted contains the full street address entered. You'll probably want to delete that!
> 
> 
> Here's the TVFool plot, the preferred analysis tool: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b941904886a58


Thanks for your advice.  How can you tell from the chart that Fox is not in HD only SD?  Also, where do you think I should aim the C2 V antenna to have the best chance of getting all channels, somewhere in between the further off channels 225, 250, or 275???


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tspitz*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15720#post_24184138
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for your advice.  How can you tell from the chart that Fox is not in HD only SD?  Also, where do you think I should aim the C2 V antenna to have the best chance of getting all channels, somewhere in between the further off channels 225, 250, or 275???



Fox in N. Platte is in analog on ch 11 and is also carried as a SD sub-channel on KNOP.


----------



## jcurry85

Hi All, New to this and wanted to ask some advice.


I'm looking to install an attic antenna as my HOA does not allow outdoor antennas. your recommendations on a specific antenna and/or amp would be very much appreciated.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b949e6a40910b 


Thank you!


----------



## videobruce




> Quote:
> I'm looking to install an attic antenna as my HOA does not allow outdoor antennas


Welcome to the forums. First off you need to do a search and find out your rights to do so. Then you need to present that to them, saying sorry, but yes I can.

This subject seems to come up a few times a month here. They can't stop you from doing so.


----------



## jcurry85

Thanks for the quick reply. is an outdoor antenna necessary? aside from the hassle of dealing with the HOA i would prefer to keep it out of sight. any way to get FOX, CBS, NBC, ABC and PBS from an attic setup?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> my HOA does not allow outdoor antennas.



See the FCC OTARD rules. Your HOA can likely go pound sand.




The correct question to ask is what station or stations do you want to receive?


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15750#post_24191914
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> my HOA does not allow outdoor antennas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See the FCC OTARD rules. Your HOA can likely go pound sand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The correct question to ask is what station or stations do you want to receive?
Click to expand...

Hi,

 

Can you put up an antenna on your neighbors house without permission?

 

The HOA will most likely work with you, remember that the HOA is YOU also, but it is best to be a good neighbor.

 

When I was told that a metal roof was to be installed it took the HOA manager 10 seconds to start to make a copy of an approved antenna installation. It comes down to who owns what, I do not own where my antenna is attached.

 

  http://www.avsforum.com/g/i/126095/channel-master-cm4228hd-clear-picture/

 



 

But the correct question needs to be asked first, I had VHF Lo/Hi and UHF antennas in my attic for ~ forty years that were working just fine.

 

SHF


----------



## merchantord

I'm in the Brownsville TN area and this is my TVFool link--

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b94360c6c47a8 


I live just off the court square in an older neighbourhood. No tall buildings , mountains or hills nearby but there are some old growth trees about. I'm planning on attaching the antenna to my Direct TV dish mast. The cable run on that is about a 100 feet and it will connect to a Panasonic ZT60. I think that is everything needed for starters (hopefully). Any advice is appreciated.


----------



## retiredengineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15750#post_24191914
> 
> 
> See the FCC OTARD rules.



The CC&R for my son's condo defines the roof over his head as a common area so the HOA can ban outdoor antenna. This is the exception to the OTARD rules. If the CC&R does not call the roof a common area, then yes, he can mount an antenna up there.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *retiredengineer*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15750#post_24192669
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15750#post_24191914
> 
> 
> See the FCC OTARD rules.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The CC&R for my son's condo defines the roof over his head as a common area so the HOA can ban outdoor antenna. This is the exception to the OTARD rules. If the CC&R does not call the roof a common area, then yes, he can mount an antenna up there.
Click to expand...

Hi,

 

Our Board of Directors first allowed satellite dishes to be attached to the fascia board and then OTA antennas when the metal roofs started to be installed.

 

This placement was chosen so as to *not allow* any possibility of roof leaks.

 

After forty years we have a big problem with trees lifting the sidewalks thus many big trees are being removed. The tree in the common area was an replacement for one that was lifting my sidewalk and I planted two that were similar in name shown in the picture.

 

It's all about limiting costs in the future.

 

But there are HOA's that say, FCC rules, we don't need any stinking FCC rules. YMMV They usually win, you can't fight city hall.

 

SHF


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jcurry85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15750#post_24191154
> 
> 
> Thanks for the quick reply. is an outdoor antenna necessary? aside from the hassle of dealing with the HOA i would prefer to keep it out of sight. any way to get FOX, CBS, NBC, ABC and PBS from an attic setup?



If there's a CO local OTA thread that might be more helpful for you. Otherwise can you identify by callsign exactly which stations you're most interested in? I see a bunch of low power stations with strong signals but no network affiliations. Are those repeaters for network stations? I could research all that but it's easier to ask you.










If you need to receive those stations in yellow you'll likely need an outdoor antenna with a rotor since you have stations in all sorts of directions.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *retiredengineer*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15750#post_24192669
> 
> 
> The CC&R for my son's condo defines the roof over his head as a common area so the HOA can ban outdoor antenna. This is the exception to the OTARD rules. If the CC&R does not call the roof a common area, then yes, he can mount an antenna up there.



How do we know jcurry85 lives in a condo? He hasn't said that. Single family houses have HOA's too.


jcurry85 - What do you live in?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *merchantord*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15750#post_24192649
> 
> 
> I'm in the Brownsville TN area and this is my TVFool link--
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b94360c6c47a8
> 
> 
> I live just off the court square in an older neighbourhood. No tall buildings , mountains or hills nearby but there are some old growth trees about. I'm planning on attaching the antenna to my Direct TV dish mast. The cable run on that is about a 100 feet and it will connect to a Panasonic ZT60. I think that is everything needed for starters (hopefully). Any advice is appreciated.



I wouldn't skimp on the antenna since your stations are 1 edge, at a moderate distance and of average strength. You have one station on low VHF, one on high VHF and a bunch on UHF. You need an antenna to cover all those bands. I doubt the antenna you need can be supported on a Direct TV mast.


----------



## jcurry85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15750#post_24193044
> 
> 
> How do we know jcurry85 lives in a condo? He hasn't said that. Single family houses have HOA's too.
> 
> 
> jcurry85 - What do you live in?



I live in a single family home. No common areas. Sounds like I should be allowed to put on up on the roof with a little convincing. looks like the attic won't be an option for me?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jcurry85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15750#post_24193112
> 
> 
> I live in a single family home. No common areas. Sounds like I should be allowed to put on up on the roof with a little convincing. looks like the attic won't be an option for me?



Show the HOA this:

http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-reception-devices-rule 


You can put up pretty much what you need to receive the stations.


I looked more carefully at the stations in your list. Your strongest stations look like a bunch of irrelevant low power stations. Your network stations are all at 200 degrees and of moderate signal strength. Attic antenna? Maybe but with 1 edge stations at 55 miles I'd recommend this as high as you can get it to clear any local building and vegetation:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=hd7698p&d=winegard-hd-7698p-platinum-series-high-definition-vhf%2Fuhf-tv-antenna-(hd7698p) 


This preamp would be helpful:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=lna-200


----------



## hanesian




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15720_60#post_24157711
> 
> 
> Happy New Year to you, too!
> 
> 
> I think you need an antenna with more gain. The ANT751 is okay for the immediate area, but KPXM Ion 41 is in the yellow zone, plus it is 2 edge, which means that there are two hills or ridges between you and their transmitter. I recommend the Channel Master CM4228. It has has good gain all across the UHF band. KMSP channel 9 is your only VHF channel but it's strong enough that I think the CM4228 will pick it up okay. The 4228 has a wide pick up area so it should cover the span from 326 to 5 degrees where your signals come from. You might need to experiment to find the best direction for best overall reception.
> 
> 
> I use the 4228 and have been very happy with the results. It pulls in stations that are 60 to 65 miles away with no problem.
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF



Hi Larry,


I've connected the CM 4228HD in the attic and generally speaking it has dramatically improved the reception, except I am not getting KMSP 9, which is the VHF channel mentioned as possibly being a problem in your above response to my original post . That transmitter is only about 18 miles away, but is Edge1 reception. I'll keep tinkering with it but may have to somehow combine this antenna with the ANT 751 to get that KMSP 9. Any ideas on what I might use to combine those two antennas? The preamp I got actually made reception worse, so I've taken that out of the loop.


No luck getting ION 41 48 miles away either, but I knew that would be hard inside the attic. I may experiment with the antenna outside come spring, but I am not desperate enough for that channel to climb on the snowy, icy roof in frigid temps!


----------



## merchantord




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15750#post_24193072
> 
> 
> I wouldn't skimp on the antenna since your stations are 1 edge, at a moderate distance and of average strength. You have one station on low VHF, one on high VHF and a bunch on UHF. You need an antenna to cover all those bands. I doubt the antenna you need can be supported on a Direct TV mast.



Thanks for responding Calveras. Can you recommend an antenna and the best way to mount it?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *merchantord*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15750#post_24196648
> 
> 
> Thanks for responding Calveras. Can you recommend an antenna and the best way to mount it?



You'll need something like this:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=hd7084&d=winegard-hd-7084p-high-defintion-vhf%2Fuhf%2Ffm-tv-antenna-(hd7084p) 


There are not a lot of choices for channel 2 - 51 antennas anymore.


You could use a chimney mount for up to about 10'. Higher than that will require a tower or push-up mast.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15750#post_24196714
> 
> 
> You'll need something like this:
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=hd7084&d=winegard-hd-7084p-high-defintion-vhf%2Fuhf%2Ffm-tv-antenna-(hd7084p)
> 
> 
> There are not a lot of choices for channel 2 - 51 antennas anymore.
> 
> 
> You could use a chimney mount for up to about 10'. Higher than that will require a tower or push-up mast.


Yes indeed there are now fewer of those large all band antennas. Recently Channel Master has discontinued another one of their legacy antenna designs, the CM-3671 UHF/VHF fringe antenna. But they still offer the 3020, and Winegard still makes the 8200. For now. And there are some Antennacraft versions also.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hanesian*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15750#post_24196467
> 
> 
> Hi Larry,
> 
> 
> I've connected the CM 4228HD in the attic and generally speaking it has dramatically improved the reception, except I am not getting KMSP 9, which is the VHF channel mentioned as possibly being a problem in your above response to my original post . That transmitter is only about 18 miles away, but is Edge1 reception. I'll keep tinkering with it but may have to somehow combine this antenna with the ANT 751 to get that KMSP 9. Any ideas on what I might use to combine those two antennas? The preamp I got actually made reception worse, so I've taken that out of the loop.
> 
> 
> No luck getting ION 41 48 miles away either, but I knew that would be hard inside the attic. I may experiment with the antenna outside come spring, but I am not desperate enough for that channel to climb on the snowy, icy roof in frigid temps!



I'm happy to hear that the CM4228 worked well. You might try connecting the 4228 and the ANT 751 together using a spitter hooked up backward.... the two antennas in, one feed out. You can connect them together in the attic using short pieces of coax and use the existing coax to the TV. Most of the time two antennas connected this way makes some stations better and some stations worse because the signals from the two antennas are fighting each other, adding in some cases, subtracting in others. If it works, you're in good shape. If that doesn't work, go to Radio Shack and get an A-B switch. Connect one antenna to each side and then you can select the antenna that works best for the channel you want to watch. You'll, of course, have to run to coaxes from the attic to the switch by the TV.


Sorry that the 4228 doesn't pull in ION 41 for you. Maybe it will if you get it higher. Good luck!


Larry

SF


----------



## Digital Rules




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hanesian*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15750#post_24196467
> 
> 
> Hi Larry,
> 
> 
> I'll keep tinkering with it but may have to somehow combine this antenna with the ANT 751 to get that KMSP 9. Any ideas


Combine the 2 antennas with a UVSJ. A conventional splitter is not indicated here.


Your local Radio Shack may carry them.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Radio Shack does indeed carry a UVSJ, catalog number 15-2586, around 15 bucks.


If you order a UVSJ online, you're pay around $3 bucks plus shipping, so it might end up not much different in price.


----------



## jcurry85

Thanks for all the feedback guys it was very helpful. I did some additional local research and found that people were using the clearstream 2v with good results. I purchased one from Best Buy (easy to return if it didn't work out). Here is an outline of how I set it up:


I live in a two story house with cable runs from each of the 4 bedrooms upstairs running through the attic down to a central point in the basement. I spliced into one of the Coax cables from one of the bedrooms using a two way splitter (one out feeds the bedroom the other to the basement) in the attic. The antenna was assembled and mounted in the attic and pointed SSW. I checked the reception in the bedroom (


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Pretty amazing that the C2V would pick up everything out of Denver including your VHF stations! Not bad for a simple dipole.


> Quote:
> Possibility 3)
> 
> Your suggestions?



Go with the 1-port amplifier CM3410( http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master-CM-3410-Distribution-Amplifier/dp/B001FY0B90/ref=pd_sim_e_6 ) and add the power inserter for remote operation down in the basement. http://www.amazon.com/PCT-Inserter-MPI-1G-Remote-Amplifers/dp/B005Y12UH6/ref=pd_sim_e_2 The CM distribution amps are the same as the pct amps except for labeling and packaging.


The inserter will allow you to hook up the distribution amp as if it were a standard remotely powered pre-amplifier. You will amplify the signals at the antenna in the attic, send that to the basement distribution splitter, then distribute to all outlets from the basement.


----------



## hanesian




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Digital Rules*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15720_60#post_24198335
> 
> 
> Combine the 2 antennas with a UVSJ. A conventional splitter is not indicated here.
> 
> 
> Your local Radio Shack may carry them.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15720_60#post_24199540
> 
> 
> Radio Shack does indeed carry a UVSJ, catalog number 15-2586, around 15 bucks.
> 
> 
> If you order a UVSJ online, you're pay around $3 bucks plus shipping, so it might end up not much different in price.



Well, I tried using both my preamp and the Radio Shack UVSJ, and neither worked well at all. Using the UVSJ I fed the CM 4228 into the UHF and the ANT 751 into the VHF using identical length RG6, and I couldn't get ANY channels. So, I've gone back to the CM 4228 alone and moved it higher in the attic. Still not getting the Hi VHF station 9, and the other Hi VHF 11 is inconsistent now too. I had hoped this antenna would do better on hi VHF stations within 20 miles. Unless I am doing something wrong I think I'll have to wait for the spring thaw to experiment with the CM 4228 outside on the roof.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Using the UVSJ I fed the CM 4228 into the UHF and the ANT 751 into the VHF using identical length RG6, and I couldn't get ANY channels.



That would suggest that the UVSJ or the cabling is defective.


Equal cable length doesn't matter in this application.


----------



## hanesian




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15720_60#post_24208473
> 
> 
> That would suggest that the UVSJ or the cabling is defective.
> 
> 
> Equal cable length doesn't matter in this application.



Thank you for that response! Of the two possibilities you mention, the cabling seemed much more likely to be suspect, as it included several DIY compression connectors on my RG6 quad, and it as the first time I had done those. So I went back to research my compression methodology and realized I had unknowingly removed the second (inner) layer of foil wrap. So I went back and removed those connectors and did them again the RIGHT way, and rescanned and

*BAM!*


60+ channels (as opposed to 7 previously) including the problematic hi VHF channels 9 and 11 AND the elusive, 48 mile distant ION 41 which I had given up ever getting without putting the antenna on the roof rather than in the attic!







. And only using the CM 4228HD. Took the ANT 751 back out first to see if the cabling alone would do it, and clearly it did!


All the channels come in rock solid - in fact I now have probably twice as many channels as we ever got with Basic cable from Comcast. I probably won't watch a number of these channels, including a bunch of shopping channels and some that appear to be duplicates, but I get everything I hoped for ... and more!


So thanks for the input and feedback/suggestions from everyone here! I obviously couldn't have done it without you. I was wondering if I should just give up, and in my case at least, found it was as simple as poorly done compression connectors! So to those struggling: don't give up!


Off now to enjoy my scads of free TV! Cheers all!


----------



## tylerSC

I always buy the prefitted cable because those connectors always cause me problems and cancel out the signal. There is the foil wrap, copper braiding, and white insulation. You have to be very careful and precise. And I never get it right. So I just get the 25 foot, 6 foot, or whatever length I need.


----------



## hanesian




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15720_60#post_24211446
> 
> 
> I always buy the prefitted cable because those connectors always cause me problems and cancel out the signal. There is the foil wrap, copper braiding, and white insulation. You have to be very careful and precise. And I never get it right. So I just get the 25 foot, 6 foot, or whatever length I need.



That would make sense in many situations. In my case, I already owned a half used roll of RG6 quad from a previous project and, more importantly, I had to pull cable from the attic to the basement including going through several walls. Pretty hard to fish cable through walls with connectors attached, and hard to work with pre-determined cable lengths in cases like that too, especially when your cable run turns out to be 100+ feet like mine was. But in more straight forward situations the store bought version saves time and hassle.


Having said that, once you have the tools and get the hang of doing the connectors it really is very easy, so I would not avoid it for that reason. If I can do it, anyone can.


----------



## jcurry85

Alright guys, back again. I ordered the amp and power inserter from amazon as ProjectSHO89 suggested but it appears a weak signal may not have been the issue. I am now thinking the problems are the RG6 connections. after I failed to get a signal to my TV in the living room by adding the amp I went down to the basement where the coax cables all meet. The setup goes Antenna ---> Amp ---> RG6 down to basement ---> Power inserter ---> TV. (I'm not including any of the other rooms at the moment, just the main living room TV)


When the cable running to a TV is screwed into the power inserter (or a splitter or a coupler) the signal does not go through but if I remove the coupler/splitter/power inserter and touch center conductor to center conductor the picture shows up just fine. I am also able to get a signal to the tv by touching the center conductor from the TV to the outside threads on the splitter/coupler. I figured I must have messed something up when I installed the compression fittings so I re-did them, twice, on both ends of the cable running between the basement and Amplifier.


Any ideas what I'm doing wrong?


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jcurry85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15750#post_24218229
> 
> 
> Alright guys, back again. I ordered the amp and power inserter from amazon as ProjectSHO89 suggested but it appears a weak signal may not have been the issue. I am now thinking the problems are the RG6 connections. after I failed to get a signal to my TV in the living room by adding the amp I went down to the basement where the coax cables all meet. The setup goes Antenna ---> Amp ---> RG6 down to basement ---> Power inserter ---> TV. (I'm not including any of the other rooms at the moment, just the main living room TV)
> 
> 
> When the cable running to a TV is screwed into the power inserter (or a splitter or a coupler) the signal does not go through but if I remove the coupler/splitter/power inserter and touch center conductor to center conductor the picture shows up just fine. I am also able to get a signal to the tv by touching the center conductor from the TV to the outside threads on the splitter/coupler. I figured I must have messed something up when I installed the compression fittings so I re-did them, twice, on both ends of the cable running between the basement and Amplifier.
> 
> 
> Any ideas what I'm doing wrong?


A number of issues are possible.

Check all the coax connectors. The connector needs to be solidly in contact with the outer conductor (foil / braid), and, the inner (center) wire must not be in contact with the connector

If you have any doubts, re-do them. Cut the outside jacket of the cable the length of the connector and pull it off.

Pull the braid/ foil down half way, and, trim it with scissors or pliers so that the inner insulator is completely bare for half the length of the connector. Remove the inner insulator from the center wire three quarters the way, so that a small part of the center insulator is open and bare. Push the new connector down onto the braid / foil....... As best you can, make sure that none of the braid or foil is in contact with the center wire, and the braid and foil is fully in contact with the neck of the connector...... then crimp.

But there are other things that might be wrong. There might be a short or break in one of the cables. The amp might be shorted., or the power supply.

DIY OTA is SO much fun.


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> Any ideas what I'm doing wrong?



Sounds like a short circuit between the shield and the center conductor on one of the cables.


Swap out each existing cable run with a pre-made cable for troubleshooting purposes.


or... If you have an ohmmeter, unplug both ends of each cable and check for a center-to-shield short circuit. Then, install a jumper at one end of the cable between the shield and center conductor, then go to the other end and look for a low resistance (several ohms, depends on physical length) between the center and shield. These tests will check for gross failures (opens/shorts) in the coax.


----------



## ctdish

Be careful that the power doesn't have to go through any splitters. They are frequently DC shorts.

John


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15750#post_24221377
> 
> 
> Be careful that the power doesn't have to go through any splitters. They are frequently DC shorts.
> 
> John



Well, we'd like them to be a series short if we want DC pass through but not a shunt short.


Most commonly, splitters, unless otherwise marked, will be DC blocking.


----------



## ctdish

I tested a few of various ages and manufactures that I have here and I was wrong. None of them were DC shorts shield to center and they were very low resistance between any of the center conductors so you could pass power through then OK. The risk would be that that TVs connected to the other ports would have DC on the tuner input.

John


----------



## jcurry85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15750#post_24221377
> 
> 
> Be careful that the power doesn't have to go through any splitters. They are frequently DC shorts.
> 
> John



No Splitter in between, just a straigt shot from the power inserter to the amp



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ADTech*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15750#post_24219815
> 
> 
> Sounds like a short circuit between the shield and the center conductor on one of the cables.
> 
> 
> Swap out each existing cable run with a pre-made cable for troubleshooting purposes.
> 
> 
> or... If you have an ohmmeter, unplug both ends of each cable and check for a center-to-shield short circuit. Then, install a jumper at one end of the cable between the shield and center conductor, then go to the other end and look for a low resistance (several ohms, depends on physical length) between the center and shield. These tests will check for gross failures (opens/shorts) in the coax.



I've traded out/removed all other cables that I though might be causing the problem. There is one cable I did not think to disconnect and that was the one from the amp (the one i'm using has 2 outputs) to the bedroom. I figured since this line was working it was all good but I'll give that a try when I get home.


I do have a cheap harbor freight multimeter that I could use to test the cable itself. I did a little research and it sounds pretty straight forward.



Thanks again for the input, I'll let you know how it turns out.


----------



## Prototype3a

I recently moved to a house in Christiansburg VA from Blacksburg VA and while the TV reception is MUCH better than what I could pull in before, I would like to try and get WSET. I feel like my location might make this possible. (top of a hill, no major obstructions), Right now I have an antennasdirect DB2 in the attic for the bedroom tv and a loop/dipole antenna for the ground floor tv sitting next to the tv. I figure I'll probably have to mount something on the roof but I'm not sure how big of an antenna I'll need to get WSET.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b94c8eaad9a8f 


In the local thread, others seemed to think I could pick up WSET with the right antenna and they referred me to this thread.


I've been looking at the RCA/Audiovox ANT751R but it is rated for 'up to 40mi' which would put me right on the edge of getting WSET.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Prototype3a*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15780#post_24243645
> 
> 
> In the local thread, others seemed to think I could pick up WSET with the right antenna and they referred me to this thread.
> 
> 
> I've been looking at the RCA/Audiovox ANT751R but it is rated for 'up to 40mi' which would put me right on the edge of getting WSET.



Antenna ratings in miles is marketing and reception has more to do with the location of the transmitter and receiver. I see WSET is 2 edge so I clicked on the call sign in TVFool to see what the path looked like. You have a big mountain to cross over which is not really good. OTOH it's on RF 13 which does a better job getting over mountains than UHF does. I wouldn't skimp on the antenna. I'd go with the Winegard HD7698P or the Antennacraft HBU55. A preamp might get overloaded since you have a number of very strong local stations. You might be better off to keep the coax run short and use RG-11 instead of a preamp.


I see your PBS station is on RF 3. That's unfortunate. Neither antenna above covers low VHF but it's a very strong signal so they might work anyway. I have a nearby low power station on RF 3 and I receive it fine on a high VHF antenna.


Assuming you can receive WSET it's likely to have times when it drops out due to atmospheric conditions over the 2 edge path.


----------



## Prototype3a

I get the RF3 PBS station with both the DB2 and the bunny ears in the living room just fine so I suspect anything the same size or bigger would pick it up on the roof just fine. As I said before, I'm really only concerned about WSET. I hadn't considered the possibility of overgaining the tvs but I also wasn't planning on installing an amp. Seems like I need to do some research on how to secure a huge antenna to my roof.


----------



## Ennui

I mounted mine on the end of the peak with some home-made brackets.

mount2small.JPG 378k .JPG file


----------



## williammanda

Hello all!

I'm looking to change over from comcast cable to OTA! Here is my TV Fool info:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b94393a58a8bb 


I'm new at this since I've used cable all my life. Comcast is encrypting the channels starting March 1st. I'm only interested in the top 8 channels in the right hand chart which are the network channels. It would seem I need two antennas, one for the 90 degree area and another for the 0 degree area. Also I have looked at this antenna:

http://store.gomohu.com/sky-hdtv-outdoor-antenna.html 


Is this product any better than others?


Thanks


----------



## ctdish

You have sort of medium strength signals with WHAS and WBNA being high VHF so I would not recommend any small non traditional antennas. I would try an HD7695 shown here:
http://www.summitsource.com/winegard-hd7695p-high-definition-vhfuhf-hd769-series-antenna-element-local-hdtv-digital-signal-channel-outdoor-television-aerial-coax-with-gold-connectors-zone-part-hd7695p-p-6788.html?ref=1&gclid=CPu-172LkrwCFaHm7AodVjsAsQ 

You may have trouble with the top two stations without a rotator but you could try without one and see what happens.

John


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *williammanda*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15780#post_24247072
> 
> 
> Hello all!
> 
> I'm looking to change over from comcast cable to OTA! Here is my TV Fool info:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b94393a58a8bb
> 
> 
> I'm new at this since I've used cable all my life. Comcast is encrypting the channels starting March 1st. I'm only interested in the top 8 channels in the right hand chart which are the network channels. It would seem I need two antennas, one for the 90 degree area and another for the 0 degree area. Also I have looked at this antenna:



Looks like your main transmitter site is where all those stations at 47 miles and 4-5 degrees are. They are all 2 edge which means two mountains to refract over. The good news is I don't see any major mountains to cross.



> Quote:
> http://store.gomohu.com/sky-hdtv-outdoor-antenna.html
> 
> 
> Is this product any better than others?



That's not going to work except for your top 2 stations.


You need a serious outdoor antenna. I wouldn't even try anything less than the Winegard HD7698P or the Antennacraft HBU55. The antenna needs to clear all the local obstructions like buildings and trees. A moderate gain preamp like the Winegard LNA-200 would be helpful and probably not get overloaded by the very strong WKZT because you're not pointed at it. Even if you receive all the stations it's very likely that some will have dropouts under certain weather conditions. Distant 2 edge paths are often unstable.


----------



## ThoraX695

I would also check out the Louisville HDTV thread. There are probably folks from around Elizabethtown and Hardin County that are reliably getting OTA TV from Louisville. (Yes, I'm originally from Louisville.







)


----------



## DDLOP

Looking for an opinion on my issue. I can't seem to get Fox in HD to come in at all, the station just isn't there when i search for it. I'm located in Astoria Queens, less than 5 miles from the empire state building (which i think is the broadcast source). I'm using a mohu leaf (amplified version) giong to an iview3500stbii box with hdmi out to my receiver. I get plenty of other HD stations and I also get fox in SD (5-3), any ideas on why this isn't coming in? I checked and i have the most up to date firmware on the tuber box.


Is a different antenna needed?


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DDLOP*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15780#post_24259395
> 
> 
> Looking for an opinion on my issue. I can't seem to get Fox in HD to come in at all, the station just isn't there when i search for it. I'm located in Astoria Queens, less than 5 miles from the empire state building (which i think is the broadcast source). I'm using a mohu leaf (amplified version) giong to an iview3500stbii box with hdmi out to my receiver. I get plenty of other HD stations and I also get fox in SD (5-3), any ideas on why this isn't coming in? I checked and i have the most up to date firmware on the tuber box.
> 
> 
> Is a different antenna needed?


Try punching in 44.1 on your receiver and turning the mohu a little in each direction and, up and down. There doesn't seem an obvious reason why you are not getting WNYW, while you are clearly getting WWOR's signal. WNYW's Fox HD is on channel 44, while the SD is on WWOR's 38.. Work with it a little , and report back if you have no good results.


----------



## holl_ands

 www.rabbitears.info shows FOX HD on 44.3...try punching that in directly.

Did you check iview threads to see if anyone else was having problems decoding FOX broadcasts....I though that was a FOX network transmit PSIP problem that was solved many years ago....


----------



## khollister

Need some antenna advice. I am 10 mi or less from all of the transmitters I care about with all of them included in about a 10 degree subtended angle. My TVFool report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b9415ace426cc 


I need an indoor solution and I am using a Tivo Roamio, which I seems to have significant issues with multipath relative to my TV tuners. I tried a Winegard Flatwave, but get periodic dropouts on various channels. Tivo indicates signal strength of 60-70 with SNR of about 25 dB.


I borrowed an old RS dual bow tie and have much better results - SNR improved 2-3 dB and the dropouts are very infrequent.


The questions is what to purchase (since the RS antenna is long discontinued). I find a few available candidates:

Clearstream 2 or 2V

Clearstream 1

Clearstream Micron R

Channel Master 4220 2 bay bowtie

Terk HDTVa (don't need the amp but I think it can be turned off)


One of my primary networks is on RF channel 11, so I am a little concerned about how the currently available antennas will deal with that versus the borrowed RS. My thought is the CS 2V or the Terk are not the answer with their VHF dipoles/rabbit ears since it might make the multi path worse. I also don't know if the UHF-only products might be better tuned and have less VHF sensitivity than the old RS.


Opinions/recommendations?


Keith


----------



## holl_ands

A-D Antennas using a Printed Circuit Board (PCB) type Balun severely attenuate VHF signals, so CS-1, CS-2 and Micron R are poor choices for Ch11 reception. The CS-2V has a separate VHF Dipole. But in UHF Band CS-2V and similar CM-4220 are fairly Directional...so you LIKELY will have to ROTATE them to receive signals from other than stations towards 100-deg azimuth.


I would start with the UNAMPLIFIED Terk HDTVi which has an irregular, multi-directional Antenna Pattern that MIGHT find a sweet spot for rejecting Multipath.


You also might have success with a Bi-Directional Hi-VHF + UHF Antenna that has Nulls towards the sides to suppress Multipath....if you can find a sweet spot. Bi-directional Antennas include simple Rabbit-Ears/Loop and 2-Bay's with NO Reflector, such as Mohu Leaf, WallTenna or a simple DIY Project:
http://gomohu.com 
http://www.walltenna.com 
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/uhf2bays/uhfm2 


Due to your VERY Strong signal levels, do NOT use an Amplified Antenna.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DDLOP*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15780#post_24259395
> 
> 
> I'm using a mohu leaf (amplified version) giong to an iview3500stbii box with hdmi out to my receiver.



You should not be using an amplified antenna 5 miles from the transmitters. The signals are very strong and you may be getting overload.


----------



## ddm237


Calaveras:

 

I am used to combining antennas with stacking bars. However, some recent antennas now have a black boxes and no longer have lead in terminals where you could connect the bars.

 

I wanted to combine 2 UHF antennas together using a splitter backwards ,after reading this suggestion on the forums.

 

I was curious, if I go ahead and do this, what is the signal loss for

 

1.) Antenna's pointing in the same direction

 

2.) Antenna's pointing in different directions

 

Does the gain from combining 2 antennas together outweigh the loss? Thanks...


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ddm237*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15780#post_24271921
> 
> 
> Calaveras:
> 
> 
> I am used to combining antennas with stacking bars. However, some recent antennas now have a black boxes and no longer have lead in terminals where you could connect the bars.
> 
> 
> I wanted to combine 2 UHF antennas together using a splitter backwards ,after reading this suggestion on the forums.



I answered your PM but for others I'll add something here.



> Quote:
> I was curious, if I go ahead and do this, what is the signal loss for
> 
> 
> 1.) Antenna's pointing in the same direction



Let's say the splitter has 3.5 dB loss when used as a splitter. Ignoring all other losses, when used as a combiner the loss will be 0.5 dB. Instead of getting 3 dB gain from 2 antennas you'll only get 2.5 dB.



> Quote:
> 2.) Antenna's pointing in different directions



When combining antennas that are out of phase, the splitter acts like it always does, giving you 3.5 dB loss.


You don't want to combine two antennas pointed in different directions with a simple combiner in most cases. Two antennas on the same mast pointed in different directions will produce a complex situation depending on where they are pointed. Some signals may have in phase components and the signals will add. Some may have out of phase components and subtract or interfere with each other.



> Quote:
> Does the gain from combining 2 antennas together outweigh the loss? Thanks...



If you pay attention to the components you can expect to get about 2.5 dB by stacking two antennas. If you're less careful you could end up with 1.5 dB.


Chuck


----------



## holl_ands

When pointing in SAME direction, internal component Loss in the Combiner is AT LEAST 0.5 dB. The 3 dB Combining Gain due to the internal Hybrid Transformer is ONLY reached when the Amplitude and Phase of the two signals are MATCHED. Antenna Mis-match, INCLUDING mismatch due to signal reception differences between the two Antennas (i.e. Multipath and nearby object perturbations) will subtract from the 2.5 dB Combining Gain mentioned above.


Fortunately, there is a MUCH LARGER amount of Space Diversity Combining Gain potentially available, as one of the Antennas experiences a Multipath Fade event while the other continues to receive a signal (with 3.5 dB Combining Loss). Of course if BOTH experience a significant Fade, there will be a (hopefully brief) signal dropout that may or may not be recoverable via the ATSC's built-in Error Detection and Correction Code:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/siting.html 
http://www.antenna-theory.com/arrays/diversity.php 
http://www.comm.utoronto.ca/~rsadve/Notes/DiversityReceive.pdf [Passive Combiner would be an "Equal Gain" type.]


Even more detailed info:
http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~dtse/epfl02.pdf 

and
http://www.utexas.edu/research/mopro/papercopy/chapter06.pdf [esp. see Fig 6-7 and 6-8]

From http://descanso.jpl.nasa.gov/Propagation/1274/1274toc.cfm 

Sorry, I no longer have space separation statistics handy for VHF & UHF frequency bands....


This helps to explain the robust performance of Antennas with Stacked Elements, such as Multi-Bay Bowties, Grey-Hoverman, etc.


----------



## A J

"Multipath" is a term I often seen tossed around as a doom and gloom killer of OTA reception. Can someone please explain in layman's terms exactly what affect multipath has on reception of digital TV signals? In the olden, analog days, ghosting, sometimes unwatchably bad, was the affect I saw from multipath. An antenna in my attic, surrounded by metal ducting and vent pipes, gave horrible ghosting back in the day. Now, I get crystal clear HD from all ten local stations (and their many sub-channels). I'm sure that multipath is still present but I have never seen any impact from it since the conversion to digital.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A J*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15780#post_24277211
> 
> "Multipath" is a term I often seen tossed around as a doom and gloom killer of OTA reception. Can someone please explain in layman's terms exactly what affect multipath has on reception of digital TV signals? In the olden, analog days, ghosting, sometimes unwatchably bad, was the affect I saw from multipath. An antenna in my attic, surrounded by metal ducting and vent pipes, gave horrible ghosting back in the day. Now, I get crystal clear HD from all ten local stations (and their many sub-channels). I'm sure that multipath is still present but I have never seen any impact from it since the conversion to digital.



Consider yourself lucky if you've never had any dropouts. Multipath that can't be corrected by the tuner equalizer effectively acts like noise to lower the signal-to-noise ratio. As long as the SNR doesn't drop below 15.2 dB (ideally) you'll have perfect reception.


You're experiencing the upside of the DTV conversion like I am here. Analog reception was sort of ghosty, watchable but not that great. After the conversion I found that all the stations had high enough SNRs to be receivable. Some people experienced the downside. Their pictures were so bad that after the conversion the SNRs were too low and they received nothing.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A J*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15780#post_24277211
> 
> "Multipath" is a term I often seen tossed around as a doom and gloom killer of OTA reception. Can someone please explain in layman's terms exactly what affect multipath has on reception of digital TV signals? In the olden, analog days, ghosting, sometimes unwatchably bad, was the affect I saw from multipath. An antenna in my attic, surrounded by metal ducting and vent pipes, gave horrible ghosting back in the day. Now, I get crystal clear HD from all ten local stations (and their many sub-channels). I'm sure that multipath is still present but I have never seen any impact from it since the conversion to digital.


You probably had the worst ghosting from WSOC and WCCB at your location. Now with digital, multipath can confuse the tuner and prevent it from decoding the signal. Instead of ghosting, you get no picture at all. Fortunately with a change in their digital transmitting antennas and power levels, you no longer seem to have a problem with multipath at your location. And the type of receiving antenna you use can reduce multipath as well.


----------



## Calaveras

Here's a page that includes a formula useful for determining spacing for long yagi type antennas:

http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=13265 


I used the plots on the DTV Primer page for the 91XG to determine the beamwidth.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html 


Turns out that for the 91XG with increasing gain with frequency, the spacing stays about the same across the UHF band. I calculated around 32".


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *A J*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15780#post_24277211
> 
> "Multipath" is a term I often seen tossed around as a doom and gloom killer of OTA reception. Can someone please explain in layman's terms exactly what affect multipath has on reception of digital TV signals? In the olden, analog days, ghosting, sometimes unwatchably bad, was the affect I saw from multipath. An antenna in my attic, surrounded by metal ducting and vent pipes, gave horrible ghosting back in the day. Now, I get crystal clear HD from all ten local stations (and their many sub-channels). I'm sure that multipath is still present but I have never seen any impact from it since the conversion to digital.


ATSC uses a complex digital waveform, where the SYMBOL Rate is 10.76 Mbaud, with 3 bits/symbol (i.e. 3 bits/baud) that's 32.28 Mbps, which yields 19.39 Mbps of usable data after processing the Error Detection and Correction Codes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8VSB 


Multipath is caused by constructive and destructive interference between (usually) Direct Path and one or more Reflective Path signals:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersymbol_interference 
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/siting.html 


At 10.76 Mbaud, each SYMBOL is only 93 microseconds long. So ADJACENT Symbols are smeared together with "typical" Multipath Delays of 3-10+ microseconds. Gen 5+ ATSC chips are capable of successfully processing up to +/- 50 microseconds of Multipath Delay, but only if it's weaker interference. If Multipath falls within the Envelope of Performance for the ATSC chips Adaptive Equalizer, errors are minimized and in some conditions can work a bit BETTER than a single fading path signal. The PROBLEMS occur when Multipath signals are rapidly fading (e.g. reflections off of fast moving cars, trucks & airplanes) OR have long delay signals of roughly equal signal strengths (e.g. Bridges & Skyscrapers) OR have VERY short delay with nearly equal signal strengths (e.g. inside attics or antenna located among rather than above surrounding buildings). ATSC A/74 contains RECOMMENDED Adaptive Equalizer Envelope of Performance Curves and a set of 50 actual OTA captures of absolute worst case test locations, most of which were REQUIRED to be successfully received by CECB (Coupon Converter Boxes), so post-2007 ATSC chips provide very robust reception in Multipath.


In many cases the solution to Multipath problems is Antenna Location, Location, Location.....


----------



## hdtvjunkie34

I'm looking for suggestions on an in-attic antenna. I can pull everything I need with an indoor antenna but I have to move the antenna when I switch channels - which gets old after a while.


I've read both my local forum (and posted there) and many posts on in this thread. Sounds like the recent Antennas Direct antenna's are designed with compromises for retail/shipping and not necessarily for picking up high VHF stations. I have two high VHF's in my area (7 & 8) - here's my tvfool data:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3D5b94693d46183e


----------



## Calaveras

^^^


I don't think having to move your antenna for every station would be acceptable to most people. There's no guarantee that you won't run into the same problem in the attic. There's no magic antenna that's guaranteed not to have the problem in the attic. No one here can tell which antenna if any will work. It's pretty much luck of the draw. An outdoor antenna would be much better especially with those 2 edge stations you have. If you're determined to use an attic antenna then buy something that covers VHF and UHF and make sure you can return it if it doesn't work. If you're lucky you'll find an antenna and a place to put it that receives all the stations at the same time.


----------



## ctdish

Although the above is true, you would have a good chance of receiving the stations between 150 and 160 deg azmiuth using an antenna like http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HBU33&d=AntennaCraft-33-Element-UHF--HighBand-VHF-Outdoor-HDTV-Antenna-%28HBU33%29&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=1607900500 

You would likely not need to move the antenna unless you wished to receive stations from other directions.

John


----------



## hdtvjunkie34

This is along the lines of what I was thinking or the smaller, cheaper http://www.amazon.com/AntennaCraft-HBU22-Boom-Antenna-High-Band/dp/B0035A6AUG/ref=sr_1_6?s=audio-video-accessories&ie=UTF8&qid=1391021459&sr=1-6 . To help that theory, the attic faces south and juts out a little bit in front of the house (over the garage).


ABC is not necessarily in the same direction, however, I may be able to pick of the one that is in the same direction (WOTV) or put a smaller UHF antenna on the north side of the house. However, IIRC, combining signals can be troublesome...


Not sure if this helps - the times I have to move/mess with the indoor antenna the most is with CBS and NBC (VHF). I also tend to get better results if I turn off the built in amplifier for NBC and turn it on for CBS.


----------



## tylerSC

For a UHF antenna, the 43XG from Antennas Direct is often overlooked in favor of the longer 91XG version. But if a smaller size is needed, the 43XG is still a strong performer. I am now having good luck with a 43XG and a Kitztech 100 preamp, receiving channels from 75 miles, as well as local VHF. So a very good antenna to consider if UHF is needed.


----------



## asonj


Howdy, been lurking a while and trying to come up with a olsution to my problem.  Thought I would put it out there.  I live on the Kitsap peninsula west of Seattle, trying to receive the local PBS channel, KCTS, channel 9-1.  

 

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b94ef4f769bab

 

I currently have a Channel Master CM2016 UHF/VHF antenna in the attic of our 2 story home (pointed towards Seattle).  Signal goes from the antenna into an amplifier (this thing http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001BMKNZI/ref=pe_385040_30332190_TE_M3T1_ST1_dp_2 ) in a junction box and then downstairs to the TV.

 

Currently have no problems receiving all the other major network channels out of Seattle.  Looking at the report it seems KCTS is a high-vhf channel?  My thought was adding a 2nd VHF-only antenna and a combiner.  Or possibly adding a preamp to the existing antenna?


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15780#post_24221992
> 
> 
> I tested a few of various ages and manufactures that I have here and I was wrong. None of them were DC shorts shield to center and they were very low resistance between any of the center conductors so you could pass power through then OK. The risk would be that that TVs connected to the other ports would have DC on the tuner input.
> 
> John


Over the years I've run across TWO RF Splitters that passed RF (probably not well) but had a DC short between center conductor and shield......I tossed them into the circular file....


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *asonj*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15810#post_24285573
> 
> 
> Currently have no problems receiving all the other major network channels out of Seattle.  Looking at the report it seems KCTS is a high-vhf channel?  My thought was adding a 2nd VHF-only antenna and a combiner.  Or possibly adding a preamp to the existing antenna?



I'd replace that CM2016 with something that is more of an antenna on high VHF. Take a look at the Antennacraft HBU series and the Winegard HD769xP series. Your signals are all very strong and LOS and there's no reason why you should have any trouble with high VHF.


----------



## tylerSC

Apparently RadioShack is closing some 500 stores. Which will reduce the number of retailers carrying antennas and OTA reception products. Their current push seems to be cell phones and computer accessories, as their new marketing strategy rejects the old stores of the past. The Super Bowl ad showed the old stores from the 80s being replaced with the modern version. Personally, I would prefer them to go back to the old style. But at least they still have a decent selection of Antennacraft antennas, for now.


----------



## holl_ands

There are FIVE Radio Shack stores within 5 miles of my Daughter's house in Escondido, CA and THREE within 5 miles of my location in the 'burbs....all very small stores that do NOT carry the big Outdoor Antennas. They all have to compete with Fry's Electronics (discount store that stocks numerous Outdoor Antennas) and on-line retailers. Either they need to consolidate into a much smaller number of larger, better equipped stores (think Best Buy)....or they will shrink into a small Kiosk offering just Cell-Phones & Service (like the one at CostCo).


----------



## nelluk


I'm hoping someone can improve my indoor antenna situation.

 

Here is my TV Fool report:  http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b94028988948e

 

I live in a 4th story small apartment. Windows are on West facing walls. Aesthetics are important here just because it's a small space.

 

I bought a Leaf and just realized (with the Olympics starting) that I do not receive NBC. I do receive: PBS 52.1, Fox 17.1, ABC 41.1, and WLLA 64.1.

 

On the advice of some others I bought some basic RCA rabbit ears to try to pick up the VHC NBC channel 8. I have been trying angling the ears any which way, but every attempt results in fewer channels than the Leaf picks up. I can get PBS easily, and PBS+WLLA in some orientations, but I haven't succeeded in getting ABC or Fox in any orientation, let alone NBC.

 

Can any antenna geek give me some advice on getting the big networks in my spot? My relationship would benefit greatly!


----------



## ctdish

Your best bet for NBC on physical channel 7 are your rabbit ears. Put them in a North facing window. If you don't have a north window try putting the rabbit ears in a window that you do have. You can get a length of RG6 cable and a double female f connector from most places that sell antennas so that the rabbit ears do not have to be near the TV.

John


----------



## tylerSC

You may want to add an inline amp with your rabbit ears and see if that may help. There is a RCA inline amp at Walmart for $15. You could give that a try. Or you could try a Terk HDTVa antenna from HHG or Fry's. It has rabbit ears, a good UHF element, and an inline amp.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15810#post_24322704
> 
> 
> You may want to add an inline amp with your rabbit ears and see if that may help. There is a RCA inline amp at Walmart for $15. You could give that a try. Or you could try a Terk HDTVa antenna from HHG or Fry's. It has rabbit ears, a good UHF element, and an inline amp.


Hi,

 

The Terk HDTVa VHF rabbit ears are NOT amplified, only the UHF antenna part is.

 

SHF


----------



## holl_ands

Since it looks like you need a higher Gain Hi-VHF Antenna, try the fol. Hi-VHF Houglass-Loop Antenna....extremely simple to construct with total length of 15.5 feet of wire (ANY wire size AWG24 or larger will work...could even be the outer shield on coax). If that works, you can combine with any UHF Antenna (perhaps a UHF Houglass-Loop) using a VHF/UHF Combiner (from Radio Shack, Antennas Direct or UVSJ from Pico-Macom or Hollands):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/hivhfhourglassloop 


For Combo Hi-VHF/UHF Indoor Antennas, check out fol. optimized for 2-ft x 3-ft METAL Picture Frame.....and a several others to chose from
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15810#post_24323071
> 
> 
> Since it looks like you need a higher Gain Hi-VHF Antenna, try the fol. Hi-VHF Houglass-Loop Antenna....extremely simple to construct with total length of 15.5 feet of wire (ANY wire size AWG24 or larger will work...could even be the outer shield on coax). If that works, you can combine with any UHF Antenna (perhaps a UHF Houglass-Loop) using a VHF/UHF Combiner (from Radio Shack, Antennas Direct or UVSJ from Pico-Macom or Hollands):
> http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/hivhfhourglassloop
> 
> 
> For Combo Hi-VHF/UHF Indoor Antennas, check out fol. optimized for 2-ft x 3-ft METAL Picture Frame.....and a several others to chose from
> http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/



Interesting.

Is there any experience with "rounding" the triangles in the Hourglass Loop into two exaggerated ovals?


----------



## gbynum




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15800_50#post_24323071
> 
> 
> Hollands http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/hivhfhourglassloop


I don't see anything on your pages about feedpoint connections or driving point impedance ... 300:75 balun I assume? Do you have a page (MAN there are lots, great work!) with this information?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *nelluk*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15810#post_24322311
> 
> 
> Can any antenna geek give me some advice on getting the big networks in my spot? My relationship would benefit greatly!



Someone needs inject a dose of reality here.


You've received various advice and none of it has worked for you which is telling you that all of us are just guessing. There's really not that much difference between the various indoor antennas. You might be lucky to find one that just happens to work a bit better than the others if you can find an optimum spot to put it.


The stations you want are mostly to the NNE and your windows are to the west. The signals need to penetrate the north facing wall (one wall or more?) which may be impossible. Reflections tend to work against you more often than for you. A preamp is not going to do much with the short coax cable you have with an indoor antenna. High VHF is worse at penetrating buildings than UHF which is why you're able to get a couple of UHF stations but no VHF.


The DTV system was not designed to work with indoor antennas under the typically high multipath (ghosty) conditions encountered there. Some people are lucky and some aren't. It's unpredictable. You may have to face the fact that OTA won't work in your situation.


----------



## holl_ands

Item #10 provides analysis for Hi-VHF Twin-Loop Figure-8 Antenna:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops 

Note that it provided slightly higher Raw Gain...but be sure to use 1/4-in Copper Tubing.


Other shapes, such as an "Oval" or various Height/Width ratios, would require rerunning Optimization runs.....


In the Upper Left Corner of SWR Chart you'll find the Characteristic Impedance of the Antenna, which is 300-ohms for 99.94% of all Antennas analyzed.

The SOURCE Wire, indicated by the RED Circle in the middle, isn't REAL.....it SIMULATES where the Balun should be connected.


----------



## nelluk




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15810#post_24325917
> 
> 
> 
> Someone needs inject a dose of reality here.
> 
> ...You may have to face the fact that OTA won't work in your situation.


 

I think you're probably right.

 

Please indulge me what may be a stupid question:

 

I attached my cable coax to the TV input. Cable service is still active til the 19th. When I scan for 'cable' channels, it picks up what I expect.. networks plus 20 or 30 unencrypted basic cable channels.

When I scan in 'air' mode, it picks up 8 channels: everything below channel 10, and PBS channel 52 with its 4 subchannels.

Is it getting these from the cable company, or is it possible it's getting them OTA?

 

Edit: The reason I ask is that someone suggested to me that the large building's coax loop might somehow act as an effective antenna. I don't know enough about it to reject it out of hand. My guess is that it's just coming from the remaining cable signal.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Is it getting these from the cable company, or is it possible it's getting them OTA?



Cable company.


----------



## gbynum




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15800_50#post_24323071
> 
> 
> Re: http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/hivhfhourglassloop/


, thanks for the impedance info ... now another; I'm thinking about trying that to play with, but am puzzled again. You note the diagonals are 29.3 inches. I did a cad layout to help me, and it dimensions them at 26.3 (theoretically 26.3014). Did the annotation text on the page get entered incorrectly, or am I missing something?


Thanks, George


----------



## easttxtv

I want to have an outdoor antenna but I don't know what antenna and mounting style to get. I've been using rabbit ears since I've been at my current place and get many locals fine, but I'd rather be able to get a better picture and not have to mess with the rabbit ears anymore. Antennaweb says I am 17-20 miles away from most local towers. Here's my TV Fool: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b9451026ca3b7 . There's no attic where I rent and no west or south windows so indoor isn't an option. I am underneath a flight path for one of the airports here (I get some pixeling on the rabbit ears when planes fly over), and most downtown skyscrapers are between me and Cedar Hill. I'm not sure what my budget will be but I don't have much income wiggle room. I wasn't sure whether to do a pole mast from the ground or something eave-mounted like what most sat dishes use. I'm not sure on coax length either because the only good place for the antenna is several feet around from the nearest window to my TV. I can't put the antenna there because that's where all the electrical comes into the house for all the renters, plus there's trees and shrubs in the way there. I don't know about what my grounding options would be either. Thanks in advance for any help.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *gbynum*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15810#post_24334812
> 
> 
> , thanks for the impedance info ... now another; I'm thinking about trying that to play with, but am puzzled again. You note the diagonals are 29.3 inches. I did a cad layout to help me, and it dimensions them at 26.3 (theoretically 26.3014). Did the annotation text on the page get entered incorrectly, or am I missing something?
> 
> 
> Thanks, George


Sorry, typo on my part: 29.3 should read 26.3 with 26.25 being "close enough". I fixed the image description.


----------



## richnlewis




> could someone help me to find the best antenna for my location in Forest, Mississippi. Here is my TV fool report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae20ae1498d6


 



> You have a similar situation to zirkelad, two groups of stations in very different directions. Your terrain plots don't look as bad as his though. One antenna with a rotor or two antennas with an A/B switch mounted high enough to clear the local ground clutter and it should work. I see a caution flag on the preamp because you have two very strong local stations. You'll probably be okay though since you won't be pointing at them. Use a lower gain preamp around 15 dB to minimize overload issues. The new Winegard LNA-200 claims it handle large signals.


 

Thanks for all the help. I have 3 signals that is a problem. Channel 14 and Channel 34 are locals and they are so strong there is no need to turn the rotor. I am also getting a very strong signal out of Jackson, MS which frustrates my reception of Channel 30 out of Meridian, MS. The problem is that Channel 3 out of Jackson, MS is RF channel 30 and Channel 30 out of Meridian,Ms is RF Channel 31. The RF Channel 31 signal is overridden by RF channel 30. Is there any way I attenuate the signal so I don't have as much overload as I am having?


----------



## Mister B




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *easttxtv*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15810#post_24334935
> 
> 
> I want to have an outdoor antenna but I don't know what antenna and mounting style to get. I've been using rabbit ears since I've been at my current place and get many locals fine, but I'd rather be able to get a better picture and not have to mess with the rabbit ears anymore. Antennaweb says I am 17-20 miles away from most local towers. Here's my TV Fool: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b9451026ca3b7 . There's no attic where I rent and no west or south windows so indoor isn't an option. I am underneath a flight path for one of the airports here (I get some pixeling on the rabbit ears when planes fly over), and most downtown skyscrapers are between me and Cedar Hill. I'm not sure what my budget will be but I don't have much income wiggle room. I wasn't sure whether to do a pole mast from the ground or something eave-mounted like what most sat dishes use. I'm not sure on coax length either because the only good place for the antenna is several feet around from the nearest window to my TV. I can't put the antenna there because that's where all the electrical comes into the house for all the renters, plus there's trees and shrubs in the way there. I don't know about what my grounding options would be either. Thanks in advance for any help.



Being a fellow Texan, I believe I have a good idea of the area where you are located. In fact, many years ago, in the analog era of course, I helped a friend in North Dallas put up an antenna. The problem in that area is multipath reflections from the tall buildings. It is hard to recommend mounting options without being there, but you need to place the outdoor antenna where you feel there is the best shot at the transmitters with as few obstructions as possible. You may even experiment with some locations before making the installation secure. I would not worry about minimizing the lead in cable length too much as your signals are very strong. As far as the antenna itself, the RCA 751 is a good choice for channels 7 thru 51. It appears the only "real" digital channel below 7 in your area that is actually transmitting is on RF 2 and it is just infomercials. Possibly analog 6 is on as a radio station on TV. As far as grounding, there are long discussions on this topic on our forum if you do a search.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *richnlewis*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15810#post_24336434
> 
> 
> could someone help me to find the best antenna for my location in Forest, Mississippi. Here is my TV fool report:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae20ae1498d6
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the help. I have 3 signals that is a problem. Channel 14 and Channel 34 are locals and they are so strong there is no need to turn the rotor. I am also getting a very strong signal out of Jackson, MS which frustrates my reception of Channel 30 out of Meridian, MS. The problem is that Channel 3 out of Jackson, MS is RF channel 30 and Channel 30 out of Meridian,Ms is RF Channel 31. The RF Channel 31 signal is overridden by RF channel 30. Is there any way I attenuate the signal so I don't have as much overload as I am having?



TVFool shows that RF channels 30 and 31 are not very strong and close to the same strength. One cannot be overriding the other. They are nearly opposite directions. Are you rotating the antenna to receive each station?


----------



## Yobyot

I'm planning to cut the cord at the end of February and am looking for some feedback on my antenna choice and recommendations on pre-amps.


Here's my TV Fool reception report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b947b7e00f6fb .


As you can see, I am fortunate in that all the Boston channels I want to watch are only 15 or so miles away, powerful and my house faces almost due east towards their transmitters. In fact, with a crappy indoor antenna I tested from Wal-Mart (an RCA ANT 1600 panel) that I simply put on the wall at foot level of the first floor of my house, I was able to get excellent reception of most Boston channels. But weather affected WFXT and WHDH to some degree and WBPX was tough to watch due to drop outs. Others, like WGBH, WCVB and WBZ were rock solid (and, excitingly, SO MUCH BETTER visually than FiOS).


My plan to overcome the few issues I have is to attic mount a Winegard HD-1080. Due to the way my house is built, I will have a very long run. First, to the basement (approx. 150 ft) and then to a splitter into the existing cable with a run of about 100 ft back upstairs to one TV and about 120 ft up to another from the splitter.


What do the antenna experts here think of this plan? Do I need a pre-amp? Can someone please recommend one? What about the Winegard HD-1080? Is anyone using one of these? I liked it for its size and price (about $40) and because it seems to me that I do not need to be extreme in trying to get signals due to the location of my house relative to the transmitters.


Thanks in advance for the feedback.


----------



## ryadoggy1987

I recommend the Winegard flat ware indoor HDTV antenna range 35 Miles (from transmitter) bought from home depot $28.00 or so. I live 24 miles from Chicago and able to pick up 67 channels antenna taped to the window I m using a few amplifier. I'm able to pick up a few class A channels also


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> What about the Winegard HD-1080?



Meh... Same for the Flatwave.


If you're absolutely going to keep it in the attic, Walmart sells a GE 24792 that is actually a very good UHF performer. It's a PITA to assemble, but once it's together, it does well. OTOH, if you like it simple, pick up either the original DB2 or the newer DB2. Both are simple to assemble. If you are so inclined, a simple 2 or 4 element UHF bowtie is simple to make. Just avoid the very common, "youtube defect" designs.


I'd probably try the antenna by itself first. You can always add a PCT/Channel master two-port distribution amp later if needed to replace the splitter. All of your Boston stations have noise margins in excess of 50 dB. That mean that after subtracting roofing loss (5-15 dB), adding antenna gain (~5), 250' of RG6 (-14 dB) and a splitter (-4), your resulting signal powers are still well above zero, probably in the mid to upper 20s.


----------



## Yobyot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15810#post_24367223
> 
> 
> Meh... Same for the Flatwave.
> 
> 
> If you're absolutely going to keep it in the attic, Walmart sells a GE 24792 that is actually a very good UHF performer. It's a PITA to assemble, but once it's together, it does well. OTOH, if you like it simple, pick up either the original DB2 or the newer DB2. Both are simple to assemble. If you are so inclined, a simple 2 or 4 element UHF bowtie is simple to make. Just avoid the very common, "youtube defect" designs.
> 
> 
> I'd probably try the antenna by itself first. You can always add a PCT/Channel master two-port distribution amp later if needed to replace the splitter. All of your Boston stations have noise margins in excess of 50 dB. That mean that after subtracting roofing loss (5-15 dB), adding antenna gain (~5), 250' of RG6 (-14 dB) and a splitter (-4), your resulting signal powers are still well above zero, probably in the mid to upper 20s.



Thanks! By "DB2" do you mean this one: http://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direct-DB2-Directional-Antenna/dp/B000EHUE7I/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top ? The GE also looks nice.


I also appreciate the feedback on trying without pre-amplification. That was my plan; to only add it if needed.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Yep, that's a DB2 but that Amazon Marketplace seller has it severely overpriced. There are still some around and its a pretty decent little antenna. You can get a refurbished one directly from Antennas Direct's website for $35 plus shipping. ( http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/DB2-Antenna.html ). They probably still have some new ones on hand, but you'd have to call them to find out. Last I remember, they were about $50 new.


----------



## Yobyot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15810#post_24367535
> 
> 
> Yep, that's a DB2 but that Amazon Marketplace seller has it severely overpriced. There are still some around and its a pretty decent little antenna. You can get a refurbished one directly from Antennas Direct's website for $35 plus shipping. ( http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/DB2-Antenna.html )



Thanks. The reviews of the GE on Amazon echo your comments -- and it comes with a mast. Seems like a good choice.


Reading one of those reviews gave me the idea to mount it in my garage, at about 15 ft. up and behind a window. That also takes the cable run to the splitter down to about 45 ft. as I can go right along the FiOS optical cable that was run through the garage. I have a Channel Master DVR+ on order and I don't know if its tuners are as sensitive as my Samsung 2013 F-series TV's. So, less loss seems like a better bet to me.


This is very exciting! Really appreciate the advice and pointers.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Yobyot*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15810#post_24367155
> 
> 
> What do the antenna experts here think of this plan? Do I need a pre-amp? Can someone please recommend one?.



With those huge signals I wouldn't use a preamp as it might get overloaded but I might consider a distribution amp at the end of the 150' of cable. I'm successfully using a CM-3410 plus a 4 way splitter.


----------



## Yobyot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15810#post_24367967
> 
> 
> With those huge signals I wouldn't use a preamp as it might get overloaded but I might consider a distribution amp at the end of the 150' of cable. I'm successfully using a CM-3410 plus a 4 way splitter.



Yep, I was thinking of trying that first -- no-pre amp but if I need more oomph at the DTVs, installing a distribution amp. Are the Channel Masters known for low added noise?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Are the Channel Masters known for low added noise?



Yep, they have noise figures in the 2.5 - 3 dB range which is quite respectable for a distribution amp.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15810#post_24367535
> 
> 
> Yep, that's a DB2 but that Amazon Marketplace seller has it severely overpriced. There are still some around and its a pretty decent little antenna. You can get a refurbished one directly from Antennas Direct's website for $35 plus shipping. ( http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/DB2-Antenna.html ). They probably still have some new ones on hand, but you'd have to call them to find out. Last I remember, they were about $50 new.


There is also an Eagle Aspen version of the DB2 that is much cheaper, sometimes around $12. Also called Proband antenna or DirecTV antenna.


----------



## stevedawg85

 http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b942f63fcbca7 


Supposedly an Indoor antenna would work for me? Is this website pretty accurate? I only care about the green channels anyway, and do not want to hassle w/ expensive roof mounted antennas.


----------



## Yobyot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15840#post_24370196
> 
> 
> There is also an Eagle Aspen version of the DB2 that is much cheaper, sometimes around $12. Also called Proband antenna or DirecTV antenna.



Wow, what a great tip! Thanks. Found this on Amazon and it looks exactly like the DB2: http://www.amazon.com/Eagle-Aspen-EASDTV2BUHF-Directv-Approved/dp/B000GIT002


----------



## Yobyot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15810#post_24367223
> 
> 
> Meh... Same for the Flatwave.
> 
> 
> If you're absolutely going to keep it in the attic, Walmart sells a GE 24792 that is actually a very good UHF performer. It's a PITA to assemble, but once it's together, it does well. OTOH, if you like it simple, pick up either the original DB2 or the newer DB2. Both are simple to assemble. If you are so inclined, a simple 2 or 4 element UHF bowtie is simple to make. Just avoid the very common, "youtube defect" designs.
> 
> 
> I'd probably try the antenna by itself first. You can always add a PCT/Channel master two-port distribution amp later if needed to replace the splitter. All of your Boston stations have noise margins in excess of 50 dB. That mean that after subtracting roofing loss (5-15 dB), adding antenna gain (~5), 250' of RG6 (-14 dB) and a splitter (-4), your resulting signal powers are still well above zero, probably in the mid to upper 20s.



I took a look at the GE at Wal-Mart today. It looks identical to the descriptions I saw online for a GE *2*4792. But model number in the store was labelled GE *3*4792.


Does anyone know if they are the same thing? If so, it's a price performer because it comes with its own mount.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Walmart tends to get "special" SKUs so it's harder to shop price matches and so they have something "exclusive", perhaps a lower price point or a little something different or extra or less.


They're the same antenna.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stevedawg85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15840#post_24370936
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b942f63fcbca7
> 
> 
> Supposedly an Indoor antenna would work for me? Is this website pretty accurate? I only care about the green channels anyway, and do not want to hassle w/ expensive roof mounted antennas.



I've found TVFool to be pretty accurate for LOS signals but it does not and cannot take into account multipath issues that arise with indoor antennas. Chances are you'll be able to receive many stations with an indoor antenna if you move the antenna around. There may also be some problem channels. Try placing the antenna in a window that faces the stations. For the cost of a few months of cable TV you can have a roof mounted antenna and probably never have a reception problem. An HBU22 or an HD7694P should be enough.


----------



## dmfdmf


Does anyone have a link for a radiation plot for an RCA ANT751? Thanks!


----------



## stevedawg85

Please someone answer my simple dumb question.


For outdoor/attic antennas, do they have somewhere to screw in the coax out of the box? Are they ready to go, just point in the right direction and screw in coax?


----------



## hanesian




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stevedawg85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15840_60#post_24384642
> 
> 
> Please someone answer my simple dumb question.
> 
> 
> For outdoor/attic antennas, do they have somewhere to screw in the coax out of the box? Are they ready to go, just point in the right direction and screw in coax?



The antennas I have used all come ready to plug into coax directly. Perhaps some older ones might need to have a basic coax adapter screwed on first, but generally just assemble and screw in your coax, aim, and go.


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dmfdmf*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15840#post_24383016
> 
> 
> Does anyone have a link for a radiation plot for an RCA ANT751? Thanks!


I've (tried to) model ANT751, but chose not to publish results due to difficulties modeling the UHF Section...


UHF section is IDENTICAL to the Winegard HD-7000 and the reduced width ANT751 is very close to Hi-VHF performance, so just use fol:
http://www.winegarddirect.com/pdf/HD7000R.pdf


----------



## dmfdmf


holl_ands

 

Thanks for the link, that is probably close enough. I am going to re-aim my antenna and just needed a rough idea of the performance.


----------



## tylerSC

Winegard makes the RCA ANT751 for Audiovox.


----------



## zebrafetish2000




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15840#post_24371972
> 
> 
> Walmart tends to get "special" SKUs so it's harder to shop price matches and so they have something "exclusive", perhaps a lower price point or a little something different or extra or less.
> 
> 
> They're the same antenna.


Walmart is so lame. They actually work with mega cap companies like P&g and tell them how to make pringles cheaper or with Sony to eliminate lesser used electronic parts to bring prices down. You don't actually get the same product from walmart as you would from a real electronics dealer like crutchfield.


----------



## stevedawg85

(Houston)


I'm looking at an HBU22 which covers channels 7-69. NBC is typically channel 2, but a few reception guides I see has it channel 35 digital. What does that mean? I plan on dropping Comcast and relying on OTA signal w/ possibly using an HD Homerun. Can I still watch NBC w/ this? Would I go to channel 35 or 2? What sort of device/antenna puts NBC on ch 2 and ch 35? Just want to make sure I'm understanding this right.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b948bc17d8c27


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *stevedawg85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15840#post_24389311
> 
> 
> (Houston)
> 
> 
> I'm looking at an HBU22 which covers channels 7-69. NBC is typically channel 2, but a few reception guides I see has it channel 35 digital. What does that mean? I plan on dropping Comcast and relying on OTA signal w/ possibly using an HD Homerun. Can I still watch NBC w/ this? Would I go to channel 35 or 2? What sort of device/antenna puts NBC on ch 2 and ch 35? Just want to make sure I'm understanding this right.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b948bc17d8c27



Channel "2" is a virtual channel. Use the column on your report labeled "Real" to determine the physical antenna needed. For Houston, you need an antenna that includes coverage of channels 7-51 for reception of all your major stations.


----------



## Larry Kenney

Stevedawg... Stations wanted to keep their old analog channel identification when they went digital, so they developed "virtual channels". Your NBC station, for example, transmits on channel 35, but the station transmits information (called PSIP) that tells your tuner to display the station as channel 2. Many of the digital stations are not transmitting on the channel they identify as. When selecting an antenna, use the RF or transmitter channel, referred to as "real" in the TVFool report. When tuning your TV, use the virtual channel.


Larry

SF


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15840#post_24391852
> 
> 
> Stevedawg... Stations wanted to keep their old analog channel identification when they went digital, so they developed "virtual channels". Your NBC station, for example, transmits on channel 35, but the station transmits information (called PSIP) that tells your tuner to display the station as channel 2. Many of the digital stations are not transmitting on the channel they identify as. When selecting an antenna, use the RF or transmitter channel, referred to as "real" in the TVFool report. When tuning your TV, use the virtual channel.
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF



Yes, once the station is in the TV's memory, one would use the virtual channel number. But, if one wished to add a station not in the scan memory, the "real", RF, channel will be needed.

I think the whole business with virtual channel numbers is quite Byzantine.and unproductive.


----------



## Yobyot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Yobyot*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15840#post_24371524
> 
> 
> Wow, what a great tip! Thanks. Found this on Amazon and it looks exactly like the DB2: http://www.amazon.com/Eagle-Aspen-EASDTV2BUHF-Directv-Approved/dp/B000GIT002



Mounted the GE from Walmart today in my garage behind a window and ran 100 ft of RG6 to the basement where it connects to the CM 4 port distribution amp people recommended.


I aimed the antenna to 106 degrees as noted by TV Fool's report for my location.


At first I was very disappointed. Reception was no better than with the indoor flat panel I tested a few weeks ago.


So I started playing around with the antenna's orientation, nudging it a few degrees further south. No improvement.


So I figured I'd give up on the compass and start way to the north and just see where the sweet spot was. Turned out it was at exactly 90 degrees.


Perfect reception of Boston market OTA plus WPRI-DT from Providence.


The lesson for me? Next to location, orientation is everything.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15840#post_24394149
> 
> 
> I think the whole business with virtual channel numbers is quite Byzantine.and unproductive.



I totally agree. They should have never introduced the idea of virtual channels. It wouldn't have taken people long to get used to the new channel numbers.


Larry

SF


----------



## kenglish

So, you'd rather have to enter:

RF Channel:38

Video PID: 53

Audio PID: 55

PCR PID: 53

...Just to watch a certain channel?


----------



## Calaveras

^ ^ ^


No. Of course we don't want to do that. I want the use of virtual channels to be totally gone. The average viewer could care less about the channel branding and will quickly learn whatever the channel number is. My parents have all the cable channel numbers memorized for their favorite stations and don't even know what the channel number brand is.


Virtual channels cause all sorts of problems for people in fringe areas like where I am. I have several conflicts like this one:


KSBW Virtual 8.1 & 8.2 on RF 8

KBTV Virtual 8.1 thru 8.6 on RF 51

KNSO on Virtual 51.1 & 51.2 on RF 11


The TV virtual channel table has 8.1 and 8.2 going to KSBW and 8.3 - 8.6 going to KBTV. How am I supposed to get to KBTV 8.1 and 8.2? I can't enter the RF number because if I do it goes to KNSO. The answer is that I have to trick it and know that KDTV virtual 14.1 - 14.3 is actually on RF 51 assuming that virtual 14.1 isn't mapped to RF 51.3 like some (especially Spanish) stations do.


If all the virtual and real channel numbers were the same this issue would just go away. Tune to the RF number and receive whatever is there.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kenglish*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15840#post_24397171
> 
> 
> So, you'd rather have to enter:
> 
> RF Channel:38
> 
> Video PID: 53
> 
> Audio PID: 55
> 
> PCR PID: 53
> 
> ...Just to watch a certain channel?



I see virtual channels as a relic of the days DTV was seen as a means to revive OTA viewing. I'm sure that opportunity is passed as cable and dish have run over the TV antenna.

Had DTV been a general reality 20 years ago, virtual channels might have made since..


----------



## zarg7883

Likely a holdover from the old days. Having a low channel was important, particularly for network stations. TV listings for each time listed programs by channel number. Being on UHF usually implied second rate.


----------



## RippyD

I've got an odd antenna question/situation. I'm getting better reception with my coax tester connected outside than I am from my ChannelMaster UHF antenna. How is this possible, and why is it happening.


Here's the story: I recently moved into a new house. None of the coax or network cables are labeled. In order to get my antenna going for OTA, I had to figure out what went where. I reused a coax connection from outside (for DISH install). After getting everything connected at the panel I went to the TV to check the signal - it all looked great. Getting 75%+ signal for the channels I care about, over 95% for many of them.


Then it occurred to me that I had not connected my antenna yet - I still had my tester connected to the outside coax. What the...? So I go outside, retrieve my tester, screw the coax to the antenna, and go check again. Signals are significantly lower. Double what the....? So I assume this can't be, and go put the tester on the end of the coax and measure the signal, then switch back to the antenna. Same results - the tester gives me a much better signal than my antenna. The coax connected to nothing gives me practically no signal, as expected.


I first assumed that the output voltage of the tester was fooling the TiVo into thinking there was a signal. Nope - the picture is there. The signal is better from my tester than from my antenna. I also connected the tester inside. I get a pretty good signal, but not as good as when it's outside. Also doesn't seem to matter if the tester power is on or off.


Antenna: ChannelMaster 4221 (or an older model that looks similar). Tester is a Sperry coax/cat5 tester. It's essentially a tone + fault tester. The side I had connected at the antenna end was the tone (signal) emitter.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RippyD*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15840#post_24405344
> 
> 
> I've got an odd antenna question/situation. I'm getting better reception with my coax tester connected outside than I am from my ChannelMaster UHF antenna. How is this possible, and why is it happening.
> 
> 
> Here's the story: I recently moved into a new house. None of the coax or network cables are labeled. In order to get my antenna going for OTA, I had to figure out what went where. I reused a coax connection from outside (for DISH install). After getting everything connected at the panel I went to the TV to check the signal - it all looked great. Getting 75%+ signal for the channels I care about, over 95% for many of them.
> 
> 
> Then it occurred to me that I had not connected my antenna yet - I still had my tester connected to the outside coax. What the...? So I go outside, retrieve my tester, screw the coax to the antenna, and go check again. Signals are significantly lower. Double what the....? So I assume this can't be, and go put the tester on the end of the coax and measure the signal, then switch back to the antenna. Same results - the tester gives me a much better signal than my antenna. The coax connected to nothing gives me practically no signal, as expected.
> 
> 
> I first assumed that the output voltage of the tester was fooling the TiVo into thinking there was a signal. Nope - the picture is there. The signal is better from my tester than from my antenna. I also connected the tester inside. I get a pretty good signal, but not as good as when it's outside. Also doesn't seem to matter if the tester power is on or off.
> 
> 
> Antenna: ChannelMaster 4221 (or an older model that looks similar). Tester is a Sperry coax/cat5 tester. It's essentially a tone + fault tester. The side I had connected at the antenna end was the tone (signal) emitter.



I would be interested in how it worked with the batteries removed


----------



## Calaveras

There must be something wrong with the antenna. The coax cable is not actually making an electrical connection, probably right at the antenna. You must have very strong signals.


----------



## RippyD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15840#post_24405552
> 
> 
> I would be interested in how it worked with the batteries removed













I can't tell if you're serious. But np - I can check tonight. What are you thinking about batteries? I know practically nothing about antennas but I do get how signals and wavelengths work. I can't see how that little 3" box can be receiving signals.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RippyD*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15840#post_24406105
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't tell if you're serious. But np - I can check tonight. What are you thinking about batteries? I know practically nothing about antennas but I do get how signals and wavelengths work. I can't see how that little 3" box can be receiving signals.



Yes, serious.

I would agree with Calaveras that there is probably some electrical mis- or un- connect with the antenna.

And, I can imagine some electrical circuits could act as a marginal antenna at TV frequencies.

But I'm also curious what part DC cells might be playing in a circuit used as an antenna..


----------



## RippyD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15840#post_24406056
> 
> 
> There must be something wrong with the antenna. The coax cable is not actually making an electrical connection, probably right at the antenna. You must have very strong signals.


Got it. I had a similar thought after I sent this post last night - could be that the tester is doing very little, but that the antenna is doing less. As another test I did hook up a 20' piece of coax - that did nothing. I'll try a coat hanger tonight.


----------



## Sting5920


Hello,

We just moved out to the country and purchased our first "Smart TV.

Here is my TV Fool report:

 

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b941e56117384

 

Ill need something {pointing almost directly NORTH} that will provide good VHF reception to view WLUK 11.1 FOX

and still give me the UHF reception for the 11 other channels from the same direction

I assume I want something the will not be bothered by competition from the south.

 

Do I need to have a device to rotate the antenna since these are in such a straight line to me?

 

Would the Antennacraft HBU series or the Winegard HD769xP series be the correct choice?

 

or do I need to step up the "the Stacker"

 

Kind Regards!

Sting

ps is there any reason to step up and try to gain the 34 channels to the south?

http://www.gomohu.com/scanner/processing4.php?zip=53042


----------



## RippyD

One more q: if there's any issue with my antenna I assume it's with the transformer. Is there any reason I can't just disconnect it and connect another one at the same attachment points? Perhaps stupid q: if I do this, is there any polarity? Does it matter which side of the transformer goes to which side of the antenna (guessing not)?


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RippyD*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15870#post_24407644
> 
> 
> One more q: if there's any issue with my antenna I assume it's with the transformer. Is there any reason I can't just disconnect it and connect another one at the same attachment points? Perhaps stupid q: if I do this, is there any polarity? Does it matter which side of the transformer goes to which side of the antenna (guessing not)?



Before replacing the balun, take it off , clean all contacts, and put it back on.. There could be only loose contact.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sting5920*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15870#post_24407585
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> We just moved out to the country and purchased our first "Smart TV.
> 
> Here is my TV Fool report:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b941e56117384
> 
> 
> Ill need something {pointing almost directly NORTH} that will provide good VHF reception to view WLUK 11.1 FOX
> 
> 
> and still give me the UHF reception for the 11 other channels from the same direction
> 
> I assume I want something the will not be bothered by competition from the south.
> 
> 
> Do I need to have a device to rotate the antenna since these are in such a straight line to me?
> 
> 
> Would the Antennacraft HBU series or the Winegard HD769xP series be the correct choice?
> 
> 
> or do I need to step up the "the Stacker"
> 
> 
> Kind Regards!
> 
> Sting
> 
> ps is there any reason to step up and try to gain the 34 channels to the south?
> http://www.gomohu.com/scanner/processing4.php?zip=53042



Both the Antennacraft HBU series and Winegard HD759xP series are good antennas. You should probably get about the same signal levels from either. Of course, you'd need a model with more gain if you plan to use it for receiving all of those signals to the south. I don't see why you wouldn't want to get all of those addition stations, so I'd get one of the higher gain antennas and a rotor and you'll be in good shape. You'll have no problem with the stations to the north, and the ones to the south should be pretty decent as well. With the rotor you'll also be able to get the stations that are to the east and west of you, too.


Larry

SF


----------



## Larry Kenney

RippyD... there's no polarity for connecting the coax to the antenna. As Difuse says, it's probably just a bad connection... or it could be a broken wire. Clean it up and, if necessary, put a new connector on the coax. Antennas usually don't go bad, it's the connection hardware that does. Good luck.


Larry

SF


----------



## RippyD




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15870#post_24408753
> 
> 
> RippyD... there's no polarity for connecting the coax to the antenna. As Difuse says, it's probably just a bad connection... or it could be a broken wire. Clean it up and, if necessary, put a new connector on the coax. Antennas usually don't go bad, it's the connection hardware that does. Good luck.
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF


Don't see much opportunity to do that. It's a plastic box that is riveted to the antenna. I could drill those out, but I also don't see an easy way to open the plastic box. I could of course cut it open, but at some point it's easier to just get an transformer or a new antenna. The connection at the of the coax could be bad as well. I can easily replace the connection and see if that helps.


----------



## kenglish

Just buy a good transformer from any electronics dealer. You might (or, might not) get a little better one from a place that sells to technicians and such, rather than a chain store.

As for polarity, it will only make a difference if you are combining multiple antennas.


----------



## Sting5920




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15870#post_24408714
> 
> 
> 
> Both the Antennacraft HBU series and Winegard HD759xP series are good antennas. You should probably get about the same signal levels from either. Of course, you'd need a model with more gain if you plan to use it for receiving all of those signals to the south. I don't see why you wouldn't want to get all of those addition stations, so I'd get one of the higher gain antennas and a rotor and you'll be in good shape. You'll have no problem with the stations to the north, and the ones to the south should be pretty decent as well. With the rotor you'll also be able to get the stations that are to the east and west of you, too.
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF


Thank- you Larry for the advice. I am so pleased after plugging my new TV in for the first time last night! I was given an antenna [pictured below] so I rigged it on a low roof just to try - it will not rotate [ supposed too??? ]  but the channels to the south displayed well - even with the "backside" reception


----------



## Larry Kenney

That's good news, Sting! I'm surprised that small antenna worked so well. That means you've got good signals to work with. When you get your permanent antenna up with a rotor you'll be in really good shape.


Larry

SF


----------



## Sting5920


It is unbelievable- I have good picture from stations 65 miles away - some still have to be located but I believe they are even farther out

 

WOW -- just WOW

 

It makes me almost want to buy that big Stacker system and put up a tower

 

almost 

 

kind regards

Sting


----------



## ProjectSHO89

The "stacker" is a gimmick. Avoid it. You can do a lot better with your own selection of separate antennas.


----------



## Sting5920


Here is what I am considering putting up after I erect a tower to put it on. I hate to nail into my new roof!

Winegard 7698P because I think it looks "cooler" than the Antennacraft HBU-55

Antennacraft 10g212 amp - because I don't like the blatant MADE IN CHINA sticker on the PA18

Channel master CM9521A because it holds preset locations

 

Somebodys installation kit - yesterday there was a deal from Solid Signal but I like the look and feel of the

Digicon DS6 connectors

Is there a DIY one time use too to check the cable ends - or would I be better off buying the premade cable in the correct lengths

 

 

Thoughts???

 

I took the the rotor control of the cheep antenna [shown above] out of the line and put the cable directly to the TV

but I lost 75% of my available channels - so the thing must also be a pre amp because they came back after I reinstalled


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sting5920*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15870#post_24421289
> 
> 
> Here is what I am considering putting up after I erect a tower to put it on. I hate to nail into my new roof!
> 
> Winegard 7698P because I think it looks "cooler" than the Antennacraft HBU-55
> 
> Antennacraft 10g212 amp - because I don't like the blatant MADE IN CHINA sticker on the PA18
> 
> Channel master CM9521A because it holds preset locations


The 7698P is a good choice. Can't say anything about the 10g212... I know nothing about it. The CM9521A rotor is good and the presets work well, but beware that the rotor itself cannot handle strong buffeting winds. I had one here that only lasted a year after being battered by our gusty winds.


Larry

SF


----------



## Sting5920


Thank-you Larry

I didn't know about the wind issues - and I am certainly in a windy place

So Ill have to find a bettor rotor option


----------



## Ennui

I don't know how your roof is configured, but I used the end of the peak for mounting. See pictures.

mount2.JPG 1805k .JPG file


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Antennacraft 10g212 amp - because I don't like the blatant MADE IN CHINA sticker on the PA18



So it matters if that sticker is "blatant" or if it's on the bottom side of the product where you don't see it until you take it out of the box to install it?


:shrug:


...whatever....


----------



## tylerSC

Most all of the preamps are made in China under subcontracted arrangements. Whether it be Channel Master, Winegard, Antennas Direct or Antennacraft. But the Kitztech preamps are indeed made in the USA and have very good low noise specs which can make a difference in fringe applications. But the best budget choice which is actually a proven performer, is the RCA preamp from Audiovox. Otherwise I would choose between the Winegard LNA-200, Antennas Direct PA-18, or the Channel Master 7778 based upon specs for your location.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Otherwise I would choose between the Winegard LNA-200, Antennas Direct PA-18, or the Channel Master 7778 based upon specs for your location.



I'd scratch the PA18 from that list (far too easy to overload) for this location. I'd throw the RCA pre-amp back to the mix as it's essentially a clone of the old CM7778 and it's the only option with dual inputs should you go with separate antennas. It's also tough to overload.


I haven't played with the new CM7778 (I do have a new CM7777, though) so I can't offer any opinion on it one way or the other.


----------



## Sting5920




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15870#post_24423387
> 
> 
> 
> So it matters if that sticker is "blatant" or if it's on the bottom side of the product where you don't see it until you take it out


 

 

It Depends :>)


----------



## Sting5920




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15870#post_24415605
> 
> 
> The "stacker" is a gimmick. Avoid it. You can do a lot better with your own selection of separate antennas.


Thank you for helping me avoid the pitfalls


----------



## Yobyot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sting5920*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15870#post_24407585
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> We just moved out to the country and purchased our first "Smart TV.
> 
> Here is my TV Fool report:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b941e56117384
> 
> 
> Ill need something {pointing almost directly NORTH} that will provide good VHF reception to view WLUK 11.1 FOX
> 
> 
> and still give me the UHF reception for the 11 other channels from the same direction
> 
> I assume I want something the will not be bothered by competition from the south.
> 
> 
> Do I need to have a device to rotate the antenna since these are in such a straight line to me?
> 
> 
> Would the Antennacraft HBU series or the Winegard HD769xP series be the correct choice?
> 
> 
> or do I need to step up the "the Stacker"
> 
> 
> Kind Regards!
> 
> Sting
> 
> ps is there any reason to step up and try to gain the 34 channels to the south?
> http://www.gomohu.com/scanner/processing4.php?zip=53042




I just got my Winegard HD7694P, Kitztech KT-100VG and ChannelMaster CM 3414 setup all dialed in. (It took a while. You might find some of the things I learned and wrote about in this blog post useful.) I mounted the antenna and pre-amp in my garage. We live about 17 miles due west of the major Boston stations. I really like this antenna. Of the major Boston stations, only WCVB occasionally glitches for a millisecond or two, depending on weather. The major Boston stations' transmitters are within one or two degrees from each other, so the Winegard's directionality is an advantage. As a bonus, the Kiztech makes it possible to fall back to a pair of Providence stations, which is nice.


The pre-amp and distribution amp make it possible to send signals through the long RG-6 runs that were installed in the house when it was built in the 90s. And, my main TV, a 2013 Samsung F-series connected to a CM DVR+, reports SN ratios for the Boston stations of ~30dB. I am not sure how accurate that number is, but my tvfool.com report shows that the NM of most of the Boston stations range from a low of 54dB to a high of 65dB. That shows that the rig I set up is pretty darn lossy, costing me between 27dB and 32dB.


The people on this forum who talk about cable length loss and the importance of getting as much signal as you can into the system (gain) with the lowest possible added noise are dead on. IOW, it's not just about the antenna -- it's the whole rig that will determine how good your reception is.


----------



## ctdish

The noise margin from TVFool is the expected signal power to system noise. It does not include the noise contribution of signal distortion. With transmitter distortion and uncorrected multipath distortion the best SNR a TV can report is probably in the 30 dB region.

John


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Yobyot*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15870#post_24431318
> 
> 
> I just got my Winegard HD7694P, Kitztech KT-100VG and ChannelMaster CM 3414 setup all dialed in. And, my main TV, a 2013 Samsung F-series connected to a CM DVR+, reports SN ratios for the Boston stations of ~30dB.



You're signals are about as good as they're going to get. As CTDish said, "the best SNR a TV can report is probably in the 30 dB region." I'm just 3/4 mile from Sutro Tower here in San Francisco and the highest signal I've ever seen is 33 dB SNR on my Sony. Sit back and enjoy your great reception!


Larry


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> I am not sure how accurate that number is, but my tvfool.com report shows that the NM of most of the Boston stations range from a low of 54dB to a high of 65dB. That shows that the rig I set up is pretty darn lossy, costing me between 27dB and 32dB.



The calculated noise margin and the reported SNR are apples to oranges numbers, not to be confused with each other. They mean different things.


It's highly unlikely that you actually need both a pre-amp and distribution amp. Your glitches may be due to over-amplification.


----------



## Yobyot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15870#post_24432142
> 
> 
> The calculated noise margin and the reported SNR are apples to oranges numbers, not to be confused with each other. They mean different things.
> 
> 
> It's highly unlikely that you actually need both a pre-amp and distribution amp. Your glitches may be due to over-amplification.



Thanks. I've been wondering about that. Without the pre-amp, I have what I think is multipath interference. On one or two stations, it shows up as a rapid signal drop, sometimes so severe the tuner loses lock, followed immediately by a blast of signal all the way back to ~30dB SNR. I think -- though I am not sure -- that the Kitztech pre-amp is "smoothing" that out. And what was a total loss of picture is now a visual "tear" in the picture.


I just haven't used the rig long enough and through enough weather conditions and seasons to know if I need the pre-amp or not. But I have heard the cautions about over-amplification. I am convinced I need the distribution amp; the antenna pre-amp is still experimental.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Yobyot*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15870#post_24431318
> 
> 
> The pre-amp and distribution amp make it possible to send signals through the long RG-6 runs that were installed in the house when it was built in the 90s. And, my main TV, a 2013 Samsung F-series connected to a CM DVR+, reports SN ratios for the Boston stations of ~30dB. I am not sure how accurate that number is, but my tvfool.com report shows that the NM of most of the Boston stations range from a low of 54dB to a high of 65dB. That shows that the rig I set up is pretty darn lossy, costing me between 27dB and 32dB.



What you're measuring is Signal Quality and what TVFool is showing with Noise Margin is Signal Strength. These are two different things. They do have a relationship but it is not entirely straightforward. In no way does the difference mean you have 30 dB of loss. What it means is that you could add 20-30 dB of attenuation and see little or no decrease in the Signal Quality.


The DTV transmitter itself has a signal quality or Signal-to-Noise ratio (SNR). In a well operating transmitter it runs in the mid 30's dB. This means the mid 30's is the best Signal Quality you can ever get. Received SNR cannot exceed the source. In the real world there's almost always a tiny amount of multipath and that can degrade the Signal Quality to around 30 dB. If all your stations are running in the upper 20's to around 30 dB then that's as good as you can hope for.


----------



## Yobyot




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15870#post_24432607
> 
> 
> What you're measuring is Signal Quality and what TVFool is showing with Noise Margin is Signal Strength. These are two different things. They do have a relationship but it is not entirely straightforward. In no way does the difference mean you have 30 dB of loss. What it means is that you could add 20-30 dB of attenuation and see little or no decrease in the Signal Quality.
> 
> 
> The DTV transmitter itself has a signal quality or Signal-to-Noise ratio (SNR). In a well operating transmitter it runs in the mid 30's dB. This means the mid 30's is the best you can ever get. Received SNR cannot exceed the source. In the real world there's almost always a tiny amount of multipath and that can degrade the Signal Quality to around 30 dB. If all your stations are running in the upper 20's to around 30 dB then that's as good as you can hope for.



Really appreciate the explanation.


Here's what tvfool.com says about the NM meaning, which is why I was subtracting the apparent SNR displayed by the tuner (which I am not sure is accurate) from the NM listed in my tvfool.com table:
Code:


Code:


[CODE]This is the predicted Noise Margin (NM) of each channel "in the air" at your location, specified in dB.  You must add/subtract any gains/losses you get from your antenna, building penetration, amps, cables, splitters, and other factors present in your situation.  Hypothetically speaking, you need to end up with an NM value above 0 in order to pick up a station.

[/CODE]
.


Here's the link, in case anyone is interested, to the explanation: https://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=57&Itemid=89 


With the Kitztech, I am getting astonishingly stong, stable signals from the major Boston stations. Boston is, interestingly, an all UHF-market. But I am trying to overcome the well-known UHF gremlins to marry the brilliance of the pictures (and it is amazing) with the stability of a compressed cable feed.


One other datapoint: on secondary stations (mostly Providence-licensed UHF stations) on which the tuner displays an SNR of ~20dB, any fluctuations below 15dB causes the tuner to lose lock. I know dB is logarithmic and not linear, so I realize every 3dB increase of loss doubles or halves signal strength. My purpose in amplification is to eliminate those fluctuations.


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> the NM meaning, which is why I was subtracting the apparent SNR displayed by the tuner



The NM figure is an estimate of signal power margin above the minimum required by the tuner. SNR is the ratio of desired to undesired components in the signal [simplified]. Neither is specifically numerically correlated to the signal quality indicators that are common in TV sets and converter boxes although either insufficient signal power or insufficient SNR will naturally cause signal quality to suffer. Other signal impairments such as multipath, both static and dynamic, or local electrical interference would be examples of other factors that will also cause signal quality to suffer.



> Quote:
> Boston is, interestingly, an all UHF-market.



There are a few dozen of those in the country. Boston is the largest in the country followed by St Louis and Kansas City.



> Quote:
> any fluctuations below 15dB causes the tuner to lose lock.



This is expected since the ATSC standard requires a 15.2 dB minimum SNR for operation.


----------



## clangro

So a few months back I decided to ditch cable TV and get an antenna. I live in north Atlanta about 6 miles from midtown. I got a Mohu Leaf ultimate thinking that should be enough but its reception has been spotty.


It picks up a ton of stuff, but even with a signal strength in the mid 80s to low 90s I got splotchy signal.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b945518a35b9d 


I don't use the amplifier as it made things so much worse. I've done everything I can think of; move it all over, replace the cables, put it against the window, etc. It's a single family ranch on a little hill about 10 feet from the street. On paper I should get perfect damn near everything, but I'm just not. Any ideas? All I want is an indoor antenna that works.


----------



## rabbit73

Yobyot:


Andy Lee (Mr. TVFOOL) has more to say about NM with diagrams here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/841787/tv-fool-discussion-thread/390#post_15700679 


Here is a diagram that shows my understanding of NM:


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *clangro*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15870#post_24433616
> 
> 
> I live in north Atlanta about 6 miles from midtown. I got a Mohu Leaf ultimate thinking that should be enough but its reception has been spotty.


The Mohu Ultimate is the wrong antenna for your strong signal area. You should be using the original Mohu Leaf that doesn't have an amplifier.


> Quote:
> The Leaf Ultimate is designed to "amplify" or boost the clarity of your picture when it falls into the moderate or yellow areas but also provides an additional 10 miles or so. However, the Leaf Ultimate may not work well if the location is within 3 miles of the broadcasting towers, as the strong signals can actually overload the amplifier of the Leaf Ultimate and may reduce the overall performance.



If you look at your tvfool report you will see that the strongest signals have a red background in the Pwr (dBm) column, which indicates the strong possibility of overload. Your report says that you are 0.6 miles away. It is not clear to me that if you remove the amplifier from the Ultimate, it will be equivalent to the original Mohu Leaf, but you can try adding some attenuation between the antenna and the TV. You can use a splitter or splitters in series to form an attenuator; one splitter gives about 3.5 dB attenuation and two in series would give about 7 dB attenuation. Even that might not be enough.


Your tvfool report from previous page:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3D5b945518a35b9d 


ATSC Recommended Practice:

Receiver Performance Guidelines

Document A/74:2010, 7 April 2010

http://www.atsc.org/cms/standards/a_74-2010.pdf 


page 12


> Quote:
> 5.2 Multi-Signal Overload
> 
> The DTV receiver should accommodate more than one undesired, high-level, NSTC or DTV signal at its input, received from transmission facilities that are in close proximity to one another. For purposes of this guideline, it should be assumed that multiple signals, each approaching *–8dBm*, will exist at the input of the receiver. Such signals may be derived from either a high gain antenna used in a close-in reception environment or via a mast-mount amplifier/antenna combination, as utilized in a more distant environment. Even an indoor antenna (or direct pickup) might deliver such levels...


You have seven signals stronger than -8dBm.


> Quote:
> All I want is an indoor antenna that works.


Don't we all want that!


When you use an indoor antenna, it is necessary to try different locations for best reception. The coax can be extended using an F81 coupler and another length of coax.


----------



## Sting5920




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15870#post_24422448
> 
> 
> 
> The 7698P is a good choice. Can't say anything about the 10g212... I know nothing about it. The CM9521A rotor is good and the presets work well, but beware that the rotor itself cannot handle strong buffeting winds. I had one here that only lasted a year after being battered by our gusty winds.
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF


I have tried to search for a better rotor for gusty wind area but fail to find a suggestion.

We have wind farms here so I am sure this area is qualified.

 

like the rotor said

Would someone "point me in the correct direction ?"


----------



## rabbit73

The next step up would be rotators for ham antennas.

http://www.eham.net/reviews/products/24 
http://www.aesham.com/antenna-accessories-rotors/ 
http://www.hy-gain.com/Categories.php?sec=168 
http://www.dxengineering.com/search/department/antennas/section/rotators?N=4294953330%2B4294950102 
https://www.google.com/#q=ham+antenna+rotators


----------



## clangro




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15900#post_24433818
> 
> 
> The Mohu Ultimate is the wrong antenna for your strong signal area. You should be using the original Mohu Leaf that doesn't have an amplifier.
> 
> If you look at your tvfool report you will see that the strongest signals have a red background in the Pwr (dBm) column, which indicates the strong possibility of overload. Your report says that you are 0.6 miles away. It is not clear to me that if you remove the amplifier from the Ultimate, it will be equivalent to the original Mohu Leaf, but you can try adding some attenuation between the antenna and the TV. You can use a splitter or splitters in series to form an attenuator; one splitter gives about 3.5 dB attenuation and two in series would give about 7 dB attenuation. Even that might not be enough.
> 
> 
> Your tvfool report from previous page:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3D5b945518a35b9d
> 
> 
> ATSC Recommended Practice:
> 
> Receiver Performance Guidelines
> 
> Document A/74:2010, 7 April 2010
> 
> http://www.atsc.org/cms/standards/a_74-2010.pdf
> 
> 
> page 12
> 
> You have seven signals stronger than -8dBm.
> 
> Don't we all want that!
> 
> 
> When you use an indoor antenna, it is necessary to try different locations for best reception. The coax can be extended using an F81 coupler and another length of coax.



What's strange is the high power channels aren't the ones having regular issues. The most problematic channels are:


2-1 (-14.2db)

5-1 (-3.0db)

8-1 (-29.3db)

30-1 (-24.8db)


----------



## ctdish

To STING 5920

Maybe a $249 AR22 from here:
http://www.rotorservice.com/prod1%20rotor%20sales.htm


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *clangro*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15870#post_24433616
> 
> 
> So a few months back I decided to ditch cable TV and get an antenna. I live in north Atlanta about 6 miles from midtown. I got a Mohu Leaf ultimate thinking that should be enough but its reception has been spotty.
> 
> 
> It picks up a ton of stuff, but even with a signal strength in the mid 80s to low 90s I got splotchy signal.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b945518a35b9d
> 
> 
> I don't use the amplifier as it made things so much worse. I've done everything I can think of; move it all over, replace the cables, put it against the window, etc. It's a single family ranch on a little hill about 10 feet from the street. On paper I should get perfect damn near everything, but I'm just not. Any ideas? All I want is an indoor antenna that works.



At 0.6 miles from the transmitter tower you have a look up angle of 19 degrees based on the transmitter height above ground and assuming you're at the same elevation as the tower. I can tell you from experience with Sutro tower in San Francisco in a similar situation that the signals are much weaker than TVFool is telling you. This is because you are far out of the main vertical lobe of the antennas where the Effective Radiated Power is much lower. This can cause the signals to be very non flat across their bandwidth because of the way the antennas work and it can cause unexpected multipath issues. You can be getting reflections from something that is seeing a much stronger signal and the reflection is effectively competing with the direct signal. Not good.


I would recommend some sort of a directional outdoor antenna pointed up at the top of the transmitter tower with nothing blocking line-of-sight.


To get a little more technical, attached is a spaghetti graph of the vertical elevation patterns of all the Sutro Tower full power UHF stations, many of which are 1000 KW ERP. Since the graph didn't go to 19 degrees below the main lobe, I extrapolated the drop in field strength. At 19 degrees down the field strength is about 1% of maximum which equates to an ERP of 100 watts if the full power was 1000KW. The Atlanta situation is likely to be similar.


The disadvantage of this is that the transmitter antennas have a very uneven gain response and can cause a very choppy signal. See the attached image showing channels 43 - 45. They're really ugly. The power levels read on the spectrum analyzer are very similar to what I receive from my local stations at 54 miles and over 2 edges! The advantage of this is that people on the ground near a tower full of high power TV transmitters are in no danger of exposure to high RF fields.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *clangro*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15900#post_24434312
> 
> 
> What's strange is the high power channels aren't the ones having regular issues. The most problematic channels are:
> 
> 
> 2-1 (-14.2db)
> 
> 5-1 (-3.0db)
> 
> 8-1 (-29.3db)
> 
> 30-1 (-24.8db)



Those ARE moderately high power signals A general rule is that anything in green is moderate to strong and should not be amplified.


Additionally, channel 8-1 is VHF and comes from Stone mountain off to the east.


----------



## Sting5920




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15900#post_24434351
> 
> 
> To STING 5920
> 
> Maybe a $249 AR22 from here:
> http://www.rotorservice.com/prod1%20rotor%20sales.htm


 

thank-you


----------



## milt9

used a prop pitch motor as an antenna rotor.

milt


----------



## Sting5920




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *milt9*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15900#post_24435666
> 
> 
> used a prop pitch motor as an antenna rotor.
> 
> milt


Seriously?


----------



## milt9

and a pair of sylsens for the indicator to tell directions.

milt


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *milt9*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15900#post_24438433
> 
> 
> and a pair of sylsens for the indicator to tell directions.
> 
> milt


Hi,

 

I have three of those, tested two which worked but as they had so little torque they have been on the shelf for ~ 30 years. GE model 2JIHI.

 

It was so easy to buy stuff at the ~ 30 Electronic Surplus's stores in Silicon Valley at the time.

 

SHF


----------



## Sting5920


PICTURES?

DESCRIPTIONS FOR ASSEMBLY?

YouTube Vid :>)


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sting5920*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15900#post_24439149
> 
> 
> 
> PICTURES?
> 
> DESCRIPTIONS FOR ASSEMBLY?
> 
> YouTube Vid :>)


Hi,

 

Still Pictures, perhaps, descriptions for assembly???

 

It was 40+ years ago so Internet instructions of course not available then.

 

I suspect that a printed page was supplied. Now lost, for sure not findable.

 

But as no wires were connected to the units I expected that clip leads were used 

 

One unit has the brake removed and a tube screwed on.

 

My conclusion was that they would be of little value then and I suspect also now. 

 

Store, perhaps this one:

 

http://www.halted.com/

 

They were one of the first and one of the few still around, the only one I could walk into today. Rest are Web only now.

 

SHF


----------



## tylerSC

Disappointing to hear RadioShack is now closing even more stores. About 1,100 instead of the 500 previously announced. I personally liked the Radioshack of the 1980s that they are trying to move away from. But they still carry a decent selection of Antennacraft antennas and OTA products.


----------



## Sting5920




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15900#post_24434351
> 
> 
> To STING 5920
> 
> Maybe a $249 AR22 from here:
> http://www.rotorservice.com/prod1%20rotor%20sales.htm


the AR 33 looks nice too - I like the presets


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15900#post_24440418
> 
> 
> Disappointing to hear RadioShack is now closing even more stores. About 1,100 instead of the 500 previously announced. I personally liked the Radioshack of the 1980s that they are trying to move away from. But they still carry a decent selection of Antennacraft antennas and OTA products.


Hi,

 

David Letterman's Top Ten was about Radio Shack closing stores last night.

 

Radio Shack lost *400 Million Dollars* in 2013.

 

SHF

EDIT:


> Quote:
> 
> On the lighter side here is Letterman's Top 10 Things Sold at Radio Shack.
> 
> It was just aired a couple nights ago.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G-lQdeWQ90
> 
> 
> 
> Letterman has no clue how close to right he is... ;-)


----------



## rdcollns




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15900#post_24449193
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> 
> David Letterman's Top Ten was about Radio Shack closing stores last night.
> 
> 
> Radio Shack lost *400 Million Dollars* in 2013.
> 
> 
> SHF



The 80s store was great, but most of us buy all that stuff online now. In the eighties, Radio Shack was the only place that carried most of their products. Now I can't think of anything they sell that I wouldn't rather buy elsewhere except for a few remnants from the 80s like soldering irons.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rdcollns*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15900#post_24452333
> 
> 
> The 80s store was great, but most of us buy all that stuff online now. In the eighties, Radio Shack was the only place that carried most of their products. Now I can't think of anything they sell that I wouldn't rather buy elsewhere except for a few remnants from the 80s like soldering irons.


Yes, but they are 10 years too late trying to modernize with cell phones, computers, and accessories. And they are losing that battle to Best Buy, Fry's, and Amazon.


----------



## RippyD

Follow up to my antenna issue from a couple of weeks ago: the attached antenna transformer has a short. I put a meter to the antenna elements and there was effectively 0 resistance between any of them, meaning the two sides had to be connected. Removed one side of the attached transformer, re-tested, and got the expected results (no current flow between the two sides).


I have not had the time to crack the transformer open to see what's wrong. Not interested in fixing it, just curious. Got $3 hardware store transformer and all is well - getting great signal strength across the board.


----------



## Yobyot

I'm hoping gurus here will help me understand whether or not a distribution amp plus an antenna pre-amp is a good idea or not.


My tvfool.com report shows local stations all in the same direction (106 degrees east magnetic north) and NM of greater than 52dB. I've mounted the antenna in the second floor of my garage (about 15' up) with a view through a window and oriented it using a compass to precisely 106 degrees east. In short, I am getting strong signals in my fillings. 


I am using a Winegard 7694P with a Kitztech VG-100 pre-amp and a ChannelMaster 3414 distribution amp.


The problem is that under some circumstances, some very strong signals start "bouncing" all over the place. Using the SN display on my TV, a signal with a measured SNR of 32dB will suddenly, inexplicably drop to 9dB. As you might expect this causes video and audio glitches. Oddly, it happens only on certain channels (Boston is an all UHF market) but not others. Even stranger is that the transmitters for all of these stations are in the same antenna farm which is, you guessed it, line of sight from me at 106 degrees. I also think (but cannot prove) that it's weather and time-of-day dependent. Cloudy days seem better and late afternoon (between 4 and 6pm) seem worse. Otherwise, you just wouldn't believe how beautiful these OTA signals are. On my 2013 Samsung F-series, they look and sound close to studio quality. They are just that good -- and I'm so close to perfection if I can just weed out the occasional reception glitch, my setup would be proof that cable is unnecessary.


I asked the pre-amp vendor about this effect and he told me to take the distribution amp out of the system. I had thought that it would be necessary since the run from the antenna to the CM is about 30ft. Then RG6 that was installed when my home was built runs from the basement to the second floor where it is split to two outlets. A separate RG6 runs from the basement to the first floor. That is also split to provide signal to a DVR and TV.


Today, reception was perfect, with "stable" signals on all local channels. So, I decided to experiment and take the CM out of the setup. I installed a high-quality splitter at the antenna feed in the basement and connected the two feeds to it. Amazingly, SNR measured by the Samsung didn't change at all. IOW, it made no difference in apparent signal strength with our without the distribution amp.


Could the distribution amp be the cause of my fluctuating signals?


----------



## ADTech




> Quote:
> some very strong signals start "bouncing" all over the place.



That is typically a symptom of multipath, excessive amplification, or electrical/electronic interference.


> Quote:
> Amazingly, SNR measured by the Samsung didn't change at all.



Not surprising at all. Beyond a base level, additional amplification will usually not affect displayed SNR on most tuners.


----------



## tylerSC

Using multiple amps can be problematic unless it is done precisely when needed. Can be problematic and more harm than good. The Kitztech is a good preamp so it should work fine without adding a dist amp. Try and see.


----------



## tylerSC

Using multiple amps can be problematic unless done precisely. Try the Kitztech by itself, it is a good amp and should do fine without the dist amp.


----------



## A J




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15900#post_24464278
> 
> 
> Using multiple amps can be problematic...


Could you repeat that? JUST KIDDING!


----------



## difuse

As to the decline of Radio Shack, it might be a symptom of a general decline in people's ability and desire to help themselves.

I can't do nearly as much repair on electronics as I once could. Other than switches and power supplies, I'm pretty much lost now.

40 years ago I got a lot of stuff from Radio Shack, as I and lots of others did things on our own. Even if Radio Shack were the same now as then, I really cant imagine how how I could use their products today...................................

Antennas and peripherals sure, but not much else,.......................................................

back in the 80's, I was faced with a small farm tractor whose engine wouldn't start. The business I was with needed that tractor running. After some looking, the most reasonable guess for ignition failure was a bad distributor capacitor. There was no going to an auto parts store and getting either a capacitor or tune-up kit, as this was an obscure brand and model;it would take some time to get such from anywhere. I went to RS and got a capacitor I reckoned would do. The tractor operated fine until we could get the tune-up kit.

I doubt that sort of thing happens much anymore.. I don't think Radio Shacks' old niche is really available anymore.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Yobyot*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15900#post_24463242
> 
> 
> I'm hoping gurus here will help me understand whether or not a distribution amp plus an antenna pre-amp is a good idea or not.
> 
> 
> My tvfool.com report shows local stations all in the same direction (106 degrees east magnetic north) and NM of greater than 52dB. I've mounted the antenna in the second floor of my garage (about 15' up) with a view through a window and oriented it using a compass to precisely 106 degrees east. In short, I am getting strong signals in my fillings.
> 
> 
> I asked the pre-amp vendor about this effect and he told me to take the distribution amp out of the system. I had thought that it would be necessary since the run from the antenna to the CM is about 30ft. Then RG6 that was installed when my home was built runs from the basement to the second floor where it is split to two outlets. A separate RG6 runs from the basement to the first floor. That is also split to provide signal to a DVR and TV.Could the distribution amp be the cause of my fluctuating signals?




I reviewed your TVFool report. I don't know exactly the total length of RG-6 but let's say it's 100' which would be 5 dB loss at channel 51. Leaving out the CM it sounds like you have two splitters for 7 dB loss and a total system loss of 12 dB. With no preamp and no distribution amp that would drop your noise margin from 52 dB to 40 dB. That's still a big number. You don't need any amps at all for those strong stations. That's why the SNR didn't change when you removed the distribution amp.


You only need a preamp if you're trying for those stations in the red and gray zones in your TVFool report.


A word of caution about the Kitztech..... They get that low noise figure by having no input filtering at all. The amp is wide open to the world. It's more likely that any strong local transmitters can overload it. Almost everyone assumes that if they're having reception problems it is because the signals are too weak. That's frequently not the problem. Then they add various amps and make the problem worse.


----------



## Sting5920




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Larry Kenney*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15870#post_24414440
> 
> 
> That's good news, Sting! I'm surprised that small antenna worked so well. That means you've got good signals to work with. When you get your permanent antenna up with a rotor you'll be in really good shape.
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> SF


 

After two weeks - I am still surprised at the reception - but have to report the available channel list varies significantly day to day - I assume that's weather related - but then I also assume many posting here know far more about this than I do. Since this cheep thing is working so well I plan to install a cheep rotor from the big box store and play with it as it is. This weekend I will manually spin it 180 to point at the weaker stations and see if that seriously effects the 12 clear strong channels from the North. No cost to try - right?


----------



## heisman6183

I'm at my wits end so seeking advice. I have an RCA flat antenna that came with an amplifier and the antenna does a good job, for the most part. However, I have trouble with cbs and pbs, 51 and 35, and it doesn't matter what antenna I try, the issues remain. Antenna is posted indoors on second floor, cable runs down to the basement where it is split in two and run to different tvs, total run has to be over 50 feet. I'd like to avoid an outdoor antenna but if I can't fix the pixelation issues I might have to. I can get qam locals but have a tivo for ota if I could just fix the pixelation on those two channels. Here's my tv fool: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b9496d5a097ea


----------



## gbynum

I don't see 51, but there is 29 for CBS. Both are very strong with excellent noise margins. I'd first be sure the antenna is NOT amplified, second hook a TV to an unsplit cable.


You should get those with a wire in the antenna jack.


My guess is that an amplifier is being over driven.


----------



## Calaveras

KGAN is licensed on channel 51 and has a construction permit for channel 29. I don't know why TVFool is showing the construction permit and not the licensed channel.


----------



## heisman6183

The problem is it is worse without the amp attached. I'm currently trying a different antenna at each tv, unsplit, but still getting pixelation on 2. I've tried the various wire in the coax methods and get nothing.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *heisman6183*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15930#post_24516645
> 
> 
> The problem is it is worse without the amp attached. I'm currently trying a different antenna at each tv, unsplit, but still getting pixelation on 2. I've tried the various wire in the coax methods and get nothing.



You may want to consider outside then. You may not need a ladder for good results. Here, moving an antenna outdoors stabilizes several channels that have pixelation with the antenna indoors. Good Luck.


----------



## heisman6183

I have a small outdoor antenna on order as I tested one of my indoor antennas outside for a few minutes and it seemed to work better. I also noticed KGAN, channel 2 (real channel 51) is advertising that people will have to rescan on April 4th, so I'm assuming that's when they're switching to 29, hopefully that will clear up some of my issues as well.


----------



## saskwatch

Could someone give me their recommendations for what type of antenna I need to get. I plan to roof mount this thing to help with reception.


Here's my tvfool report set to a height of 25 feet: http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz320/channelcat11/Radar-All_zps76a0c8d2.png 



I am looking forward to cutting my directv. I don't want to pull the trigger til my antenna is set up and running.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *saskwatch*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15930#post_24531671
> 
> 
> Could someone give me their recommendations for what type of antenna I need to get. I plan to roof mount this thing to help with reception.
> 
> 
> Here's my tvfool report set to a height of 25 feet: http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz320/channelcat11/Radar-All_zps76a0c8d2.png
> 
> 
> 
> I am looking forward to cutting my directv. I don't want to pull the trigger til my antenna is set up and running.




This is one of the worst reports I've seen in terms of stations being in many directions and signal strengths. The only chance to do this without a rotor is to try for the stations at the 82 degree heading even though they are weaker than the group in the 200's. The latter group will require a rotor.


Can you post a link to your TVFool report instead of a picture? I'd like to see how bad your 2-edge path is.


I wouldn't consider anything less than a HD7698P or a HBU55 with a rotor and a preamp. You could go UHF only for the stations around 82 degrees but your NBC station is at 63 degrees or 221 degrees. I don't like the idea of splitting the heading difference with a high gain UHF antenna and weak signals.


I hope you clear horizons and are not surrounded by trees.


----------



## Larry Kenney

Saskwatch... You've got a variety of stations, but the ones in the green zone that are closest to you are scattered in several different directions, from 146 degrees to 311 degrees. Then you have KYTX 18 that is in the 200 degree direction, but in the red area. In addition, there's a group of stations within your coverage area that are about 50 miles away but to the east at 80-82 degrees.


I think you need an antenna with decent gain, plus a rotor so that you can turn it to pick up the stations in the various different directions. I know lots of people who have had very good luck with the Winegard HD-7696P or HD7697P. The 7697 has more gain and will give better coverage of the stations that are 50+ miles away, so I'd recommend that one.

See http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=hd7697p&d=winegard-hd7697-high-definition-vhf/uhf-series-tv-antenna-(hd7697p) for more info.


There are several rotors available that will handle this antenna. The Solid Signal site has several shown here:
http://www.solidsignal.com/cview.asp?mc=03&d=over-the-air-tv-antennas-supplies&c=Antenna%20Rotators 


Hope that helps.


Larry

SF


----------



## saskwatch

Thanks for the response. Here's the link.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b94898342ca46


----------



## saskwatch

Thanks for the response. This is the one that solid signal recommended. It's a monster: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=hd8200u&d=Winegard-HD8200U-Heavy-Duty-Platinum-VHFUHFFM-HDTV-Antenna-(HD8200U)&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=615798398491 




I was afraid I had a cruddy situation for antenna. The Shreveport channels due east aren't that important to me. I mainly want the ones that are all in the 200 to 221 degree range. The channel 7 that is VHF at 267 is also important.


I am thinking of combing a good VHF antenna with a good UHF antenna to pull in those 4 without the use of a rotor.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

If someone at SS is recommending that antenna for your area, that someone is about as useful as a bag of hammers when it comes to selecting an antenna. There isn't a single low VHF station in range of you.


I'd suggest you install a 5-element Antennacraft high-VHF antenna aimed channel 7. I'd pair it with a DB8e aimed at 210 magnetic. Use an RCA pre-amp to combine and amplify the signals from both antennas.


----------



## saskwatch

You think that would work in the attic?



Or am I bound to a roof mount?


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *saskwatch*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15930#post_24534501
> 
> 
> Thanks for the response. This is the one that solid signal recommended. It's a monster: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=hd8200u&d=Winegard-HD8200U-Heavy-Duty-Platinum-VHFUHFFM-HDTV-Antenna-(HD8200U)&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=615798398491
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was afraid I had a cruddy situation for antenna. The Shreveport channels due east aren't that important to me. I mainly want the ones that are all in the 200 to 221 degree range. The channel 7 that is VHF at 267 is also important.
> 
> 
> I am thinking of combing a good VHF antenna with a good UHF antenna to pull in those 4 without the use of a rotor.



I would start with a good UHF antenna. UHF antennas are not immune to VHF signals. Some locals here use an 8-bay for rf 7 with good success. In order to get CBS, you need an antenna that should also work for some of the Shreveport channels. With those, you could add some additional subchannels. There's Accu-weather, 24-hr news, This, Movies, & Antenna TV available from La. In addition, you have 2-edge and 1-edge signals that are in play. I would wonder if that wouldn't make CBS easier from La. at times. Of course, a rotor would be a necessity. The attic sounds like a bad idea, but don't go to the roof first if you have an outdoor location that isn't blocked by your house for the stations you want to receive. Good Luck.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *saskwatch*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15930#post_24534582
> 
> 
> You think that would work in the attic?
> 
> 
> 
> Or am I bound to a roof mount?


Do a TVFOOL report with a 50 foot height . See what that does to the prediction

If you are some better off at 50 feet, I'd give up on the attic mount and resign to a roof mount...


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> You think that would work in the attic?



The UHF antenna needs to be outside and free of trees in the signal path. The high VHF antenna will likely work well enough in the attic. As a matter of opinion, you probably can get that channel 7 signal with the UHF antenna only. It's pretty strong and the DB8e isn't completely blind to VHF signals, especially at angles off bore sight.


----------



## saskwatch

Here's the tv fool report from 50 feet. My roof is only about 20 feet tall though.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b944a0c1f6d48 



It's much better.


----------



## saskwatch

3 questions for you.



Does this antenna seem like a good choice?

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=DB8&d=Antennas-Direct-DB8-UHF-HDTV-TV-Bowtie-Antenna-(DB8)&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=853748001088 





About rotors, do those things adjust the antenna when you change the channel, or do you have to do it manually? The reason I ask is because I want to setup a tivo to be able to record OTA signals. If I set something to record in Shreveport and something to record on the tower at 200 degrees to the southwest, that will be impossible right?



Is it possible to just put 2 high gain vhf antennas together and combine their cables together to avoid using a rotor?



I appreciate all the help guys. Wish I could buy yal a beer.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *saskwatch*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15930#post_24535895
> 
> 
> 3 questions for you.



Your TVFool report is telling you that your signals will benefit greatly from the antenna being up in the air. Forget the attic antenna.



> Quote:
> Does this antenna seem like a good choice?
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=DB8&d=Antennas-Direct-DB8-UHF-HDTV-TV-Bowtie-Antenna-(DB8)&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=853748001088



That will work if you get it up in the air. It may even work for channel 7 since it is strong but that antenna has the worst performance on channel 7.




> Quote:
> About rotors, do those things adjust the antenna when you change the channel, or do you have to do it manually? The reason I ask is because I want to setup a tivo to be able to record OTA signals. If I set something to record in Shreveport and something to record on the tower at 200 degrees to the southwest, that will be impossible right?



This is an issue when you have stations in different directions. No rotor will automatically turn to the station you want to record.




> Quote:
> Is it possible to just put 2 high gain vhf antennas together and combine their cables together to avoid using a rotor?.



No. You cannot connect two antennas that cover the same channels to one cable. They'll interfere with each other.


----------



## L David Matheny




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *saskwatch*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15930#post_24535895
> 
> 
> Is it possible to just put 2 high gain vhf antennas together and combine their cables together to avoid using a rotor?



Channel Master makes (or used to anyway) "Join-tenna" units which can insert from a separate antenna the signal for one specific channel, and other companies may have similar units. But if you have multiple stations in different directions, the easiest (but probably not cheapest) solution is to simply use multiple DVRs with an antenna connected to each one. Even if a rotor could be controlled by the DVR to re-aim the antenna as necessary, sooner or later you would need to record simultaneous programs from different directions.


----------



## saskwatch

And I meant to say 2 high gain *UHF* antennas.


----------



## saskwatch




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *L David Matheny*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15930#post_24536186
> 
> 
> Channel Master makes (or used to anyway) "Join-tenna" units which can insert from a separate antenna the signal for one specific channel, and other companies may have similar units. But if you have multiple stations in different directions, the easiest (but probably not cheapest) solution is to simply use multiple DVRs with an antenna connected to each one. Even if a rotor could be controlled by the DVR to re-aim the antenna as necessary, sooner or later you would need to record simultaneous programs from different directions.



Thanks! Getting the Shreveport channels would just be a bonus anyway. The only network I wouldn't be getting without the Shreveport channels would be pbs and almost all of their stuff is streamable.


----------



## saskwatch

Ok. I totally forgot I have this antenna already installed on my roof from my Dish Network days.
 

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=MS2002&d=Winegard-MS2002-Metrostar-VHFUHF-Amplified-Omnidirectional-TV-Antenna-(MS2002)&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=1579830649 



It'st still wired to the jack and everything, so I plugged it in and did a channel search. During the search it said 51 channels were found, but here is what I'm getting ( a red arrow is drawn to the channels I am getting)
 




Does this help you guys be able to predict what an antenna like the Antennas Direct DB8 would be able to get from there.


OR...


Does it change your recommendation on what antenna I should get?


----------



## tylerSC

The DB8e version will allow you to aim each 4-bay side in different directions for multiple markets. And there is a Solid Signal Extreme version of the same style 8-bay which is a bit cheaper.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15930#post_24538795
> 
> 
> The DB8e version will allow you to aim each 4-bay side in different directions for multiple markets. And there is a Solid Signal Extreme version of the same style 8-bay which is a bit cheaper.



From what I've seen online, each 2-bay of the DB8e can be aimed. That makes me wonder. Would a 2-bay/ 6-bay application work for 2 different markets?


----------



## Calaveras

The DB8e falls into the category of "just because you can do it doesn't mean you should do it." It's no different from having two identical phased antennas pointed in different directions. You can still get channels interfering with themselves from one section receiving the main signal and another section receiving a reflection. There's nothing magic about it. It may work fine in some situations and be a disaster in others. Also keep in mind that if the sections are pointing in different directions that the gain will be reduced.


----------



## deltaguy




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15930#post_24539382
> 
> 
> The DB8e falls into the category of "just because you can do it doesn't mean you should do it." It's no different from having two identical phased antennas pointed in different directions. You can still get channels interfering with themselves from one section receiving the main signal and another section receiving a reflection. There's nothing magic about it. It may work fine in some situations and be a disaster in others. Also keep in mind that if the sections are pointing in different directions that the gain will be reduced.



I know it opens the door to interference aiming in different directions. I guess I should have asked if a 6-bay would be superior to a 4-bay. Nobody sells 6-bays. You pays your money and takes your chances.


----------



## easttxtv




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *saskwatch*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15930#post_24536987
> 
> 
> Ok. I totally forgot I have this antenna already installed on my roof from my Dish Network days.
> 
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=MS2002&d=Winegard-MS2002-Metrostar-VHFUHF-Amplified-Omnidirectional-TV-Antenna-(MS2002)&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=1579830649
> 
> 
> 
> It'st still wired to the jack and everything, so I plugged it in and did a channel search. During the search it said 51 channels were found, but here is what I'm getting ( a red arrow is drawn to the channels I am getting)



So, you're not getting KYTX/19 at all? I would agree with those who've said no to the attic. If you were in a cross-town from all stations situation (like for example, Dallas-from-Cedar Hill) you could probably get away with an attic mount or much smaller outdoor mount. The recommendations others have made about being higher--agreed, absolutely!! The higher the better. East TX is hilly in spots, and while most broadcast towers are tall and most signals there are strong-to-somewhat, the bulk of viewers in the market there have to go with tall masts with rotors as the stations aren't all in the same place (a-la the crosstown Cedar Hill example I brought up before). I don't know if the antenna you have pictured would do you any better higher up as opposed to the height where you already have it. In the long run, you'll be much better off with a traditional antenna on a high mast with a rotor.


----------



## jollygrunt

I live in a fairly small town close to the Mexican border. Using my tvfool report, I wanted help determining if an indoor omnidirectional antenna, like a flatwave or mohu leaf, would be good enough to pull in as many channels but especially Fox which appears to be the most distant. Thank you.


----------



## Larry Kenney

Jollygrunt: I have the basic model Mohu Leaf without the amplification and I can get stations up to about 40 miles away with it. I use it with a USB tuner on my laptop. The only trouble is that the position that's good for one station is not necessarily good for another, so I have to tweak it often when going from one station to another.


Most of your stations, the ones in the green area on your TVFool list, are within 20 miles, so you might have good luck with an indoor antenna. There's no way to tell until you try it.


If you want reliable reception where you don't have to mess with the antenna all the time, I'd go with a small outdoor antenna pointed to about 260 degrees. You'll be much happier in the long run.


Larry

SF


----------



## saskwatch

I have already ordered this antenna to replace the multi-directional one I have up there. I don't see how it won't pull in cbs 19 once I install it in place of the disc shaped one.


I have a j mount at the peak of my roof. I may add some mast to that j mount to raise the height up by another 5 feet of so.



It should be in on Thursday. Cannot wait to see how it works.


I do not even have an amp installed yet either.


----------



## hdtvluvr

Don't be deceived by all of the open space on that antenna. It will still act as a sail so be sure to have it supported well.


----------



## Finch85

Hello


We are planning to cancel our DirecTv and rely on OTA. I have a few questions though. I’ve emailed and spoken to Solidsignal.com and have received mixed recommendations. I’ll start though by posting a link to my TVFool report. My main goal is to receive channels CBS, NBC, and FOX which are a tad over 14 miles. ABC would also be nice at a little over 18 miles. What do you guys recommend? Thanks!

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b943b4ae53568 


Here are the recommendations I’ve received from Solid Signal via email.

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=HD7084 

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=MS2002 


And when I actually called yesterday, I received this recommendation.
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=HDX1000


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24558923
> 
> 
> Hello
> 
> 
> We are planning to cancel our DirecTv and rely on OTA. I have a few questions though. I’ve emailed and spoken to Solidsignal.com and have received mixed recommendations. I’ll start though by posting a link to my TVFool report. My main goal is to receive channels CBS, NBC, and FOX which are a tad over 14 miles. ABC would also be nice at a little over 18 miles. What do you guys recommend? Thanks!
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b943b4ae53568




When I saw 14 and 18 miles from the transmitters I expected to see TVFool reporting huge signals and line-of-sight. Not so!



> Quote:
> Here are the recommendations I’ve received from Solid Signal via email.
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=HD7084
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=MS2002
> 
> 
> And when I actually called yesterday, I received this recommendation.
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=HDX1000




I think you'll definitely need an outdoor antenna and as high as possible to clear the trees. If you need PBS on RF 3 then the HD7084 might be okay. Forget the other two recommendations. Someone at SolidSignal didn't look at your TVFool report.


If you don't care about PBS then I'd look at the Winegard HD7698P or Antennacraft HBU55.


Your ABC and one FOX choice are in a different directions from the other channels. You need either a rotor or two antennas with an A/B switch.


There is another possibility. If you really only care about 4 stations and since ABC is VHF, you can get separate UHF and VHF antennas. I'd consider the Antennacraft Y10713 for high VHF and the Antennas Direct 91XG for UHF and point them in different directions. I'd also get a 2 input preamp to amplifier and combine the antennas.

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=TVPRAMP1R&d=RCA-RCATVPRAMP1R-Outdoor-Antenna-Preamplifier-(RCATVPRAMP1R)&c=Pre-Amplifiers&sku=044476071669 


I don't think any omni directional or indoor/attic antennas are very likely to work in your situation.


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24559598
> 
> 
> 
> When I saw 14 and 18 miles from the transmitters I expected to see TVFool reporting huge signals and line-of-sight. Not so!
> 
> I think you'll definitely need an outdoor antenna and as high as possible to clear the trees. If you need PBS on RF 3 then the HD7084 might be okay. Forget the other two recommendations. Someone at SolidSignal didn't look at your TVFool report.
> 
> 
> If you don't care about PBS then I'd look at the Winegard HD7698P or Antennacraft HBU55.
> 
> 
> Your ABC and one FOX choice are in a different directions from the other channels. You need either a rotor or two antennas with an A/B switch.
> 
> 
> There is another possibility. If you really only care about 4 stations and since ABC is VHF, you can get separate UHF and VHF antennas. I'd consider the Antennacraft Y10713 for high VHF and the Antennas Direct 91XG for UHF and point them in different directions. I'd also get a 2 input preamp to amplifier and combine the antennas.
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=TVPRAMP1R&d=RCA-RCATVPRAMP1R-Outdoor-Antenna-Preamplifier-(RCATVPRAMP1R)&c=Pre-Amplifiers&sku=044476071669
> 
> 
> I don't think any omni directional or indoor/attic antennas are very likely to work in your situation.


Thank you for the reply!  I have to be honest though,  it was hard enough to decide to "cut the cord" but now the thought of getting 2 antennas just to watch 4 or so channels is disheartening.  If I had to break it down further,  I only "really" care about getting channels CBS, FOX, & NBC.  Do you think I'll have an issue getting these 3?

 

My other question.  The Winegard HD7698P or Antennacraft HBU55 are both UHF & VHF but how would that work?  I mean my main goal would be to pick up UHF channels (CBS, NBC, & FOX) but would the VHF part of the antenna do me any good?  I guess why spend  the money for that if I only can receive UHF channels since the VHF channel I want is completely in the opposite direction?  

 

I I did get the two antennas...I would still be able to flip through my channels and receive both UHF & VHF without having to do anything special due to the fact of having two antennas, right?  Hope that makes sense.  Thanks again!


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24560380
> 
> 
> Thank you for the reply!  I have to be honest though,  it was hard enough to decide to "cut the cord" but now the thought of getting 2 antennas just to watch 4 or so channels is disheartening.  If I had to break it down further,  I only "really" care about getting channels CBS, FOX, & NBC.  Do you think I'll have an issue getting these 3?




The signals are weak but they're not very far away so I would expect with a good antenna you'll be able to receive them.



> Quote:
> My other question.  The Winegard HD7698P or Antennacraft HBU55 are both UHF & VHF but how would that work?  I mean my main goal would be to pick up UHF channels (CBS, NBC, & FOX) but would the VHF part of the antenna do me any good?  I guess why spend  the money for that if I only can receive UHF channels since the VHF channel I want is completely in the opposite direction?
> 
> 
> I I did get the two antennas...I would still be able to flip through my channels and receive both UHF & VHF without having to do anything special due to the fact of having two antennas, right?  Hope that makes sense.  Thanks again!




On further thought and your response about being happy with limited channels, I'm going with the separate UHF/VHF antennas with a preamp so you can at least receive the 4 networks. You won't need a rotor or an A/B switch. I'm betting that in the long run you'll want ABC. That should also be the easiest channel to receive.


It's possible, because PBS is the strongest station on your list, that you will be able to receive it even without a proper antenna. No guarantees though. Low VHF can be problematic for other reasons. I receive a station on RF 3 without a proper antenna at 14 miles.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24560380
> 
> 
> Thank you for the reply!  I have to be honest though,  it was hard enough to decide to "cut the cord" but now the thought of getting 2 antennas just to watch 4 or so channels is disheartening.  If I had to break it down further,  I only "really" care about getting channels CBS, FOX, & NBC.  Do you think I'll have an issue getting these 3?
> 
> 
> My other question.  The Winegard HD7698P or Antennacraft HBU55 are both UHF & VHF but how would that work?  I mean my main goal would be to pick up UHF channels (CBS, NBC, & FOX) but would the VHF part of the antenna do me any good?  I guess why spend  the money for that if I only can receive UHF channels since the VHF channel I want is completely in the opposite direction?
> 
> 
> I I did get the two antennas...I would still be able to flip through my channels and receive both UHF & VHF without having to do anything special due to the fact of having two antennas, right?  Hope that makes sense.  Thanks again!





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24560380
> 
> 
> Thank you for the reply!  I have to be honest though,  it was hard enough to decide to "cut the cord" but now the thought of getting 2 antennas just to watch 4 or so channels is disheartening.  If I had to break it down further,  I only "really" care about getting channels CBS, FOX, & NBC.  Do you think I'll have an issue getting these 3?
> 
> 
> My other question.  The Winegard HD7698P or Antennacraft HBU55 are both UHF & VHF but how would that work?  I mean my main goal would be to pick up UHF channels (CBS, NBC, & FOX) but would the VHF part of the antenna do me any good?  I guess why spend  the money for that if I only can receive UHF channels since the VHF channel I want is completely in the opposite direction?
> 
> 
> I I did get the two antennas...I would still be able to flip through my channels and receive both UHF & VHF without having to do anything special due to the fact of having two antennas, right?  Hope that makes sense.  Thanks again!



I'm familiar with the area you are in. I can tell you what I would do. A 4 bay bowtie type antenna with no reflector will receive from a lot of directions and heights. Most of the signals coming to you will be refractions, so no one point can be used for aiming at any transmitter. The antenna should be up as high as you can safely manage it. I think with some experimenting aiming the thing, you might be surprised what will be possible. with a single position that will receive from several directions and heights. I can imagine WSET could be had this way, in addition to the UHF's. . I have an idea for a cheap antenna for WBRA, if you'd care to make it.


----------



## Finch85

Calaveras: I forgot about PBS. So if I wanted CBS, NBC, FOX (27.1) , and PBS - you'd recommend HD7084? Sorry, I've gotten a little confused.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24561097
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have an idea for a cheap antenna for WBRA, if you'd care to make it.


 



Yes, let's hear it!


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24562141
> 
> 
> Calaveras: I forgot about PBS. So if I wanted CBS, NBC, FOX (27.1) , and PBS - you'd recommend HD7084? Sorry, I've gotten a little confused.




You'd have to have a rotor to use that antenna and it doesn't sound like you want to to do that. I can understand because it makes recording impossible.


I wouldn't hold my breath that any sort of omni or multi directional antenna is going to work in your situation. Multipath can be a big issue when you're blocked as you are and the situation is even worse if you're looking through trees. A high gain antenna is your best bet to minimize multipath.Those UHF stations shown by TVFool in red are weak and require a gain antenna and probably a preamp.


Unfortunately no one here on the forum can tell you for sure what'll work. I'm telling you what I think is your best shot. That doesn't mean something else might not work. It's also possible nothing will give you satisfactory results. Some locations are impossible. My house is in such a location but fortunately I can run 500' of cable up to a tower on top of a hill to make it possible. You just have to try it and see what happens.


As a test, I'd buy a 91XG and mount it 10' above your roof pointed at the UHF stations and see if it works. If it does then most of the battle is won. If not, return it and forget OTA. There's no commercial antenna that's going to outperform it.


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24562482
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You'd have to have a rotor to use that antenna and it doesn't sound like you want to to do that. I can understand because it makes recording impossible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't hold my breath that any sort of omni or multi directional antenna is going to work in your situation. Multipath can be a big issue when you're blocked as you are and the situation is even worse if you're looking through trees. A high gain antenna is your best bet to minimize multipath.Those UHF stations shown by TVFool in red are weak and require a gain antenna and probably a preamp.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately no one here on the forum can tell you for sure what'll work. I'm telling you what I think is your best shot. That doesn't mean something else might not work. It's also possible nothing will give you satisfactory results. Some locations are impossible. My house is in such a location but fortunately I can run 500' of cable up to a tower on top of a hill to make it possible. You just have to try it and see what happens.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a test, I'd buy a 91XG and mount it 10' above your roof pointed at the UHF stations and see if it works. If it does then most of the battle is won. If not, return it and forget OTA. There's no commercial antenna that's going to outperform it.


 



I guess I'm still confused about PBS though. If I were to buy a UHF/VHF antenna, wouldn't I receive PBS since it is in line with the UHF channels I want to receive? If I got the 91XG, there might be a chance I'd still receive PBS or did I get something backwards along the way? Sorry, but I'm just confused about that part. I realize ABC is in the opposite direction (why I would need a rotor) but not sure why I'd need a rotor for PBS since it's the same degree as the others?


Which preamp would you recommend if I got the 91XG since if wouldn't have to be UHF/VHF?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24562519
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I'm still confused about PBS though. If I were to buy a UHF/VHF antenna, wouldn't I receive PBS since it is in line with the UHF channels I want to receive? If I got the 91XG, there might be a chance I'd still receive PBS or did I get something backwards along the way? Sorry, but I'm just confused about that part. I realize ABC is in the opposite direction (why I would need a rotor) but not sure why I'd need a rotor for PBS since it's the same degree as the others?
> 
> 
> Which preamp would you recommend if I got the 91XG since if wouldn't have to be UHF/VHF?





Okay. You're saying you definitely don't want ABC. Then the HD7084 is fine. The preamp I suggested can be either dual or single input. It has a switch.


----------



## Finch85

Originally Posted by Finch85


Calaveras: I forgot about PBS. So if I wanted CBS, NBC, FOX (27.1) , and PBS - you'd recommend HD7084? Sorry, I've gotten a little confused.


You'd have to have a rotor to use that antenna and it doesn't sound like you want to to do that. I can understand because it makes recording impossible.


Calaveras - I think this is where the confusion set in. Were you thinking ABC when I asked about PBS? I apologize for the confusion. Let me simplify this for my own benefit and you tell me if this sounds good. BTW, I like everything I've read about the 91XG.


--If I get the 91XG, I should get CBS, NBC, & FOX(27.1) and maybe even PBS although its VHF? Some of the reviews of the 91XG even mentioned this possibility.

-- If I want ABC, there really is no ONE antenna I could get in order to receive it along with my other desired channels, right?

-- Preamp is a must due to weak signal


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24562141
> 
> 
> Calaveras: I forgot about PBS. So if I wanted CBS, NBC, FOX (27.1) , and PBS - you'd recommend HD7084? Sorry, I've gotten a little confused.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24561097
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have an idea for a cheap antenna for WBRA, if you'd care to make it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, let's hear it!
Click to expand...

get a length of coax with a connector on one end, open on the other. On the open end, separate the inner conductor and the outer shield, stripping the insulation off the inner conductor about an inch.

Attach at least 3 feet of heavy wire to both the inner and outer conductors of the coax, being sure they do not touch each other. Stretch the two wires in opposite directions, Now, try to receive channel 3 with the coax connector in the antenna input of your TV. You will need patience moving the wires one way then another. If you get a signal, then you can refine the project by fixing the wires to some non -conductive material , maybe PVC pipe. I have an idea the signal is there, somewhere. As Calaveras said, without being there, there is no certainty as to what any of us might guess. Bur, if there is a signal from WBRA , you should find it with.the two wires.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24562730
> 
> 
> 
> Calaveras - I think this is where the confusion set in. Were you thinking ABC when I asked about PBS? I apologize for the confusion. Let me simplify this for my own benefit and you tell me if this sounds good. BTW, I like everything I've read about the 91XG.
> 
> 
> --If I get the 91XG, I should get CBS, NBC, & FOX(27.1) and maybe even PBS although its VHF? Some of the reviews of the 91XG even mentioned this possibility.
> 
> -- If I want ABC, there really is no ONE antenna I could get in order to receive it along with my other desired channels, right?
> 
> -- Preamp is a must due to weak signal



My misinterpretation. I thought you changed your mind about ABC since the subject came up.


The 91XG will not receive VHF. Since you've said you also want PBS, the HD7084 is a better choice even though the 91XG would be better on UHF.


Since UHF is going to be harder to receive than VHF, I suggested getting a 91XG first to verify you could receive the UHF stations you wanted before investing in two antennas. If that didn't work then you could return it.


Now that I'm clear on what stations you want, 3 UHF stations and one low VHF all in the same direction, you could get the 91XG for UHF and the Antennacraft Y526 for low VHF. The preamp remains the same.


You can certainly make a dipole for a channel 3 test as difuse suggests but it'll need to be up on the roof for a real test. Low VHF is extremely poor at penetrating buildings and is very susceptible to manmade noise.


----------



## Finch85


Thanks for the help.  Would there be any issues with me using my existing coaxial (direcTV) to hook to my antenna?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24566310
> 
> 
> Thanks for the help.  Would there be any issues with me using my existing coaxial (direcTV) to hook to my antenna?



That should work.


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24567568
> 
> 
> 
> That should work.


Does everything usually come with the antenna that I need to properly ground it?   My meter and ground rod is on the complete opposite side of the house from where I need to install the antenna.  Do most people usually ground these?  It will be on the roof of my home.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24573519
> 
> 
> Does everything usually come with the antenna that I need to properly ground it?   My meter and ground rod is on the complete opposite side of the house from where I need to install the antenna.  Do most people usually ground these?  It will be on the roof of my home.



No, it doesn't come with anything you need to ground it. There are detailed posts here on the forums about grounding antennas. Please refer to those.


----------



## holl_ands

The Antenna MAST needs to be grounded, NOT the actual Antenna. Your DIRECTV Dish SHOULD have a Ground Wire attached to it already, which provides a ground connection if the TV Antenna Mast is attached to the remaining Dish Mount. If not, you'll have to provide a Ground Wire connection.


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24574087
> 
> 
> The Antenna MAST needs to be grounded, NOT the actual Antenna. Your DIRECTV Dish SHOULD have a Ground Wire attached to it already, which provides a ground connection if the TV Antenna Mast is attached to the remaining Dish Mount. If not, you'll have to provide a Ground Wire connection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently the DirecTV worker felt the need NOT to ground my dish.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm attaching two pics of my home.  As you can see,  the dish is mounted on the garage roof and the meterbase is on the left side of the home opposite of the garage.  Where would you guys install the antenna (more than likely Winegard HD7084)?  Initially, I was thinking the garage roof so I could utilize the existing dish mast (supported well) and coaxial which obviously leaves the dish and goes to the two rooms that have TVs.  We're talking less than 30' of coaxial here to each room.  This installation I run into the issue of having to run a ground all the way back to the ground rod next to the meterbase.
> 
> 
> 
> If I install the antenna above the meterbase area,  I'll have to run new coaxial (basically to where my satellite dish is now) to the two rooms I want to feed.  Longer coaxial = not good, right?  Would the pre-amp that Calaveras suggested help with this issue?
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to keep bugging you guys but I want to do this right and only one time!
> 
> 
> 
> Edit:  The two rooms with TVs are on the same wall as the chimney you see.
Click to expand...


----------



## Finch85

What do you guys think about my last post?


----------



## ctdish

There are several issues that you have that make a plan for your location difficult to guarantee results. You have three very weak UHF stations and moderately strong VHF low and high band stations. You will probably need the best UHF antenna as high as possible with a low noise preamp to receive the UHF stations with the levels predicted by TVFool. The Winegard HD7084 antenna is very big and probably not work out on the Dish mount. I would try testing rabbits ears on the roof to see if you can get WBRA and WSET. I would also go with the 91XG on the highest part of your house for UHF. Calaveras post 15972 is good guidance for your location.

John


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24578822
> 
> 
> What do you guys think about my last post?


To accomplish what you wish, your antenna, or antennas, will need to be mounted as high as possible, that is, on the chimney..

The current dish mount will not be adequate, given you have the better option, Extending the coax to gain height would be useful.


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24579359
> 
> 
> There are several issues that you have that make a plan for your location difficult to guarantee results. You have three very weak UHF stations and moderately strong VHF low and high band stations. You will probably need the best UHF antenna as high as possible with a low noise preamp to receive the UHF stations with the levels predicted by TVFool. The Winegard HD7084 antenna is very big and probably not work out on the Dish mount. I would try testing rabbits ears on the roof to see if you can get WBRA and WSET. I would also go with the 91XG on the highest part of your house for UHF. Calaveras post 15972 is good guidance for your location.
> 
> 
> John


 



Thats a good idea about the rabbit ears. They may even work on the inside of the home. Point of testing them on the roof first though? So rabbit ears for VHF and the 91XG for UHF. Thanks.


Would you stick the 91XG at the chimney but then run a ground to the other side of the house or vice versa and run a long run of coaxial?


Thanks difuse! So you'd make a long ground wire run?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24580101
> 
> 
> Would you stick the 91XG at the chimney but then run a ground to the other side of the house or vice versa and run a long run of coaxial?




I see you have trees. It would be best to mount the 91XG in a location where the stations you want are in a gap in the trees. Large dense trees can really mess up UHF reception. The closer they are the worse they are.




> Quote:
> Thats a good idea about the rabbit ears. They may even work on the inside of the home. Point of testing them on the roof first though?




VHF doesn't penetrate buildings very well and low VHF is very poor so it's likely to fail. The roof test is the best.


----------



## ctdish

You could try the rabbit ears on the lower roof first and see if there is a signal there. At my location height is less important for VHF than UHF. This might be an antenna to try for VHF:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=cs600&d=antennacraft-by-radioshack-cs600-suburban-vhf-fm-hd-tv-antenna-%28cs600%29&utm_campaign=base&utm_medium=organic&utm_source=google_base 

John


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ctdish*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24580420
> 
> 
> You could try the rabbit ears on the lower roof first and see if there is a signal there. At my location height is less important for VHF than UHF. This might be an antenna to try for VHF:
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=cs600&d=antennacraft-by-radioshack-cs600-suburban-vhf-fm-hd-tv-antenna-%28cs600%29&utm_campaign=base&utm_medium=organic&utm_source=google_base
> 
> John


 

Ok, I bought this little fella from Walmart yesterday.  If you refer to my above pic of my home,  I have this antenna on the peak of the garage roof.   I'm receiving channels 7.1 (CBS), 7.2 (MY19), 15.1 (PBS), 15.3 (WORLD), 27.1 (FOX), and 27.2 (WCW5).  As I'm typing this channel 27.1 just went in and out.  Looked out the window and there's quite a bit of clouds in the sky where the signal would be coming from. Channel 7.1 just did the same.   Why am I not receiving NBC or ABC?   I definitely would have thought I would have received NBC if I was getting CBS and FOX even with these rabbit ears.  I should be able to receive NBC once my 91XG gets here, right?

 

Also,  I don't see 7.2 or 15.3 on the TVFool channel list????

 

http://www.rcaaudiovideo.com/antennas/?sku=ANT121R

 

 * http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b943b4ae53568 *


----------



## jtbell




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24584500
> 
> 
> Also,  I don't see 7.2 or 15.3 on the TVFool channel list????



7.2 is a subchannel of WDBJ. Digital channels 7.1 and 7.2 are bundled together on "Real" channel 18. Similarly, 15.3 is a subchannel of WBRA-DT on "Real" channel 3.


TVFool doesn't show subchannels separately, only the "main" .1 channel. If you can receive the main channel, you should be also able to receive any subchannels that come along with it.


----------



## Larry Kenney




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24584500
> 
> 
> Ok, I bought this little fella from Walmart yesterday.  If you refer to my above pic of my home,  I have this antenna on the peak of the garage roof.   I'm receiving channels 7.1 (CBS), 7.2 (MY19), 15.1 (PBS), 15.3 (WORLD), 27.1 (FOX), and 27.2 (WCW5).  As I'm typing this channel 27.1 just went in and out.  Looked out the window and there's quite a bit of clouds in the sky where the signal would be coming from. Channel 7.1 just did the same.   Why am I not receiving NBC or ABC?   I definitely would have thought I would have received NBC if I was getting CBS and FOX even with these rabbit ears.  I should be able to receive NBC once my 91XG gets here, right?
> 
> 
> Also,  I don't see 7.2 or 15.3 on the TVFool channel list????



7.1/7.2 CBS/MY19 (RF18) and 27.1 (FOX) /27.2 WCW5 (RF 17) are shown down in the red area of your report, so you are getting the weaker signals on your list. 7.1 and 7.2 are different sub-channels of one signal and 27.1 and 27.2 are sub-channels of another signal.


15.1 and 15.3, again sub-channels of the same signal, are right at the top of your list in the green area. You might know them as channel 3.


I think that with a decent gain VHF/UHF antenna pointed in the direction of 282 degrees it will give you those stations plus NBC on 30 (Virtual 10.1). The other stations are off to the east at 53, 71 and 119 degrees, so unless you add a rotor so that you can turn the antenna, you probably won't get them. Channel 24 is the one at 119 degrees, and has a strong signal, but you apparently aren't getting it with the small antenna. I would recommend the Winegard HD7697 antenna to you. It's received a lot of excellent reports from all over. (See http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=hd7697p&d=Winegard-HD7697-High-Definition-VHFUHF-Series-TV-Antenna-(HD7697P)&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=  )


Larry

San Francisco


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24584500
> 
> 
> Ok, I bought this little fella from Walmart yesterday.  If you refer to my above pic of my home,  I have this antenna on the peak of the garage roof.   I'm receiving channels 7.1 (CBS), 7.2 (MY19), 15.1 (PBS), 15.3 (WORLD), 27.1 (FOX), and 27.2 (WCW5).  As I'm typing this channel 27.1 just went in and out.  Looked out the window and there's quite a bit of clouds in the sky where the signal would be coming from. Channel 7.1 just did the same.   Why am I not receiving NBC or ABC?   I definitely would have thought I would have received NBC if I was getting CBS and FOX even with these rabbit ears.  I should be able to receive NBC once my 91XG gets here, right?



You've verified that you can receive WBRA on RF 3 so I would still recommend the Y526 to go along with the 91XG. I assume you've ordered the 2 input RCA preamp. You've also verified that it is at least possible to receive something on UHF. The 91XG will be a huge improvement over rabbit ears. I'm surprised you received anything on UHF with rabbit ears even outside. I'd still recommend the 2nd story roof and try to select a spot that is not pointing into a tree.


Clouds and rain do not attenuate TV signals. What does enhance and degrade signals are temperature inversions which account for almost all the reports of "It comes in at night and the morning but drops out in the afternoon." Hopefully this will not be a issue for you because you are so close to the transmitters.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24584500
> 
> 
> Ok, I bought this little fella from Walmart yesterday.  If you refer to my above pic of my home,  I have this antenna on the peak of the garage roof.   I'm receiving channels 7.1 (CBS), 7.2 (MY19), 15.1 (PBS), 15.3 (WORLD), 27.1 (FOX), and 27.2 (WCW5).  As I'm typing this channel 27.1 just went in and out.  Looked out the window and there's quite a bit of clouds in the sky where the signal would be coming from. Channel 7.1 just did the same.   Why am I not receiving NBC or ABC?   I definitely would have thought I would have received NBC if I was getting CBS and FOX even with these rabbit ears.  I should be able to receive NBC once my 91XG gets here, right?
> 
> 
> Also,  I don't see 7.2 or 15.3 on the TVFool channel list????
> 
> http://www.rcaaudiovideo.com/antennas/?sku=ANT121R
> 
> 
> * http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b943b4ae53568 *


Its good news that you're getting WBRA, not so good that WSET did not show.. The two UHFs you have are the most penetrating in the market, I could receive them in Greensboro, but nothing else in that market.. But you've got a start.


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24585279
> 
> 
> 
> You've verified that you can receive WBRA on RF 3 so I would still recommend the Y526 to go along with the 91XG. I assume you've ordered the 2 input RCA preamp. You've also verified that it is at least possible to receive something on UHF. The 91XG will be a huge improvement over rabbit ears. I'm surprised you received anything on UHF with rabbit ears even outside. I'd still recommend the 2nd story roof and try to select a spot that is not pointing into a tree.
> 
> 
> Clouds and rain do not attenuate TV signals. What does enhance and degrade signals are temperature inversions which account for almost all the reports of "It comes in at night and the morning but drops out in the afternoon." Hopefully this will not be a issue for you because you are so close to the transmitters.


 

Thanks everyone for the help!  I really truly appreciate it!  

 

Calaveras, Yes, I'll have the 2 input RCA preamp you suggested.  I realize this may contradict my earlier posts but I guess I've come to the realization that I want as many channels as I can get.  So where I didn't really care about ABC before, forget that.  I have only a couple more questions.  

 

1.  With the Y526,  will it be possible to receive both PBS and ABC from this antenna?  Trying to do this without a rotor.  Better to point toward ABC and hope to get PBS?

2. Back to location of the antenna.  There really are no immediate trees in the way if I mount on the garage roof or the main roof of the home.  If I mount it on the garage roof or chimney,  I still have to run a ground wire all the way back to the meterbase.  Would you still mount at the chimney knowing this?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15960#post_24585427
> 
> 
> Calaveras, Yes, I'll have the 2 input RCA preamp you suggested.  I realize this may contradict my earlier posts but I guess I've come to the realization that I want as many channels as I can get.  So where I didn't really care about ABC before, forget that.  I have only a couple more questions.
> 
> 
> 1.  With the Y526,  will it be possible to receive both PBS and ABC from this antenna?  Trying to do this without a rotor.  Better to point toward ABC and hope to get PBS?
> 
> 2. Back to location of the antenna.  There really are no immediate trees in the way if I mount on the garage roof or the main roof of the home.  If I mount it on the garage roof or chimney,  I still have to run a ground wire all the way back to the meterbase.  Would you still mount at the chimney knowing this?



I wouldn't normally recommend doing this but you have an unusual situation with one station on low VHF and one station on high VHF in a different direction. I think this has a reasonable chance of working for you without using a rotor:


Get a Y526 (low VHF only) and a Y10713 (high VHF only) and connect them together through a backwards 2-way splitter and the splitter output to the VHF input on the RCA preamp. You'll have perhaps 4 dB loss through the splitter but it gives you a cheap way to combine low and high VHF. Those antennas being so far apart in frequency should not interfere with each other. If you really wanted to this right then you need to buy a Tinlee LH7-126/156 diplexer and connect the Y526 to the low band port and the Y10713 to the highband port and the diplexer output to the RCA preamp VHF input. That would drop the loss to 
http://www.tinlee.com/Diplexers.php?active=4 


I believe the antenna being as high as possible is more important than the length of the ground wire. The ground wire only bleeds off charges from nearby lightning strikes or from static charge build-up. It is not an RF ground (doesn't make the antenna work better) so it doesn't matter how long the wire is.


----------



## tylerSC

Don't they make a Low VHF and Hi VHF combiner that is cheaper than the Tinlee? Maybe Holland or somebody.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15990#post_24585591
> 
> 
> Don't they make a Low VHF and Hi VHF combiner that is cheaper than the Tinlee? Maybe Holland or somebody.



Good suggestion. I found these:

http://www.atvresearch.com/hlsjvhfbandhigh-lowseparator-combiner.aspx 

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=zhlsj&d=blonder-tongue-band-separator/combiner-hlsj-vhf-band-high-low-antenna-separator-combiner-single-piece-(zhlsj-1)&utm_campaign=base&utm_medium=organic&utm_source=google_base 


I think the advantage of the Tinlee is that the isolation is higher and you can request customized DC pass; none, one or both ports so you can power separate preamps. It doesn't look like the ones above have DC pass.


----------



## Finch85


If that's my only option (other than a rotor),  I'll just do without PBS or ABC.  It took some time of getting used to the thought of two antennas but I really don't want three.  What a pain in the butt this has been.  Thanks again for the help.  Will keep you updated.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15990#post_24586111
> 
> 
> If that's my only option (other than a rotor),  I'll just do without PBS or ABC.  It took some time of getting used to the thought of two antennas but I really don't want three.  What a pain in the butt this has been.  Thanks again for the help.  Will keep you updated.



Unfortunately you live in a strange location with stations on all three bands and in various directions. Most people don't have to deal with that.


Based on my experience here, if I were going to select two antennas, I'd go with the 91XG and the Y10713. Your PBS on RF 3 is the strongest signal you have and therefore the best chance of receiving it on the Y10713. I have an RF 3 here with very low power (


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15990#post_24587450
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15990#post_24586111
> 
> 
> If that's my only option (other than a rotor),  I'll just do without PBS or ABC.  It took some time of getting used to the thought of two antennas but I really don't want three.  What a pain in the butt this has been.  Thanks again for the help.  Will keep you updated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately you live in a strange location with stations on all three bands and in various directions. Most people don't have to deal with that.
> 
> 
> Based on my experience here, if I were going to select two antennas, I'd go with the 91XG and the Y10713. Your PBS on RF 3 is the strongest signal you have and therefore the best chance of receiving it on the Y10713. I have an RF 3 here with very low power (
Click to expand...


----------



## Squireshop


Hello,

If an antenna as built in Amp such as the Winegard MS 2002 would I be able to bypass or not to plug it in, to use inline amp with +24dB

Thanks for any ideas


----------



## ctdish

I haven't looked at one but it is likely that it could be bypassed by opening up the cover and finding a connection point for coax or a transformer that would bypass the amp. Winegard has a version the Winegard MS 1000 that does not have an amplifier.

There is not likely any situation that a 24 dB amp would be an improvement over the stock amp.

John


----------



## Finch85

Just curious but would the HDB91X antenna have been better for my situation compared to the 91XG? The 91XG is already on the way but I just came across the HDG91X and it actually receives both signals.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15990#post_24597720
> 
> 
> Just curious but would the HDB91X antenna have been better for my situation compared to the 91XG? The 91XG is already on the way but I just came across the HDG91X and it actually receives both signals.



Both of what signals? Are those clowns at Solid Signal trying to foist that antenna off as a U/V combo?


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15990#post_24597785
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both of what signals?


 



Receives UHF digital broadcasts at 70+ miles and 25 Miles High Band VHF


----------



## tylerSC

That Solid Signal antenna is the same basic design as the 91XG. It is just their version and is priced lower. But yes there is a chance it may receive some VHF if there is a strong signal. Same as 91XG. But they are primarily UHF antennas.


----------



## Finch85

So probably not enough difference to justify sending the 91XG back? I was just wondering if it would solve my issue of getting ABC channel.


Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15990#post_24597944
> 
> 
> So probably not enough difference to justify sending the 91XG back? I was just wondering if it would solve my issue of getting ABC channel.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk




I would not send the 91XG back. Different designs perform differently on out-of-band signals. I've not had any luck with the 91XG receiving anything on VHF.


OTOH, I just built an 8 element UHF log periodic on a 2 foot boom to bring with me to my parents home in Palm Desert, CA (near Palm Springs). It had to fit in the car. The stations are almost all low power and mostly UHF. I didn't know what to expect. Well I was amazed! I received all the UHF stations which are 11 miles LOS. I also received the two high VHF stations, RF9 had a good signal at 18 miles and it has only 180 watts in my direction. I received RF 12 which is 11 miles away with only 40 watts in my direction but the signal was marginal. The real surprise is that I received RF 4 on low VHF at 11 miles which TVFool predicted to have less than 1 watt in my direction! It was marginal but coming in. The only problem was I had to turn the antenna in a strange direction to get RF 12. The antenna was only 7' off the ground but there were no trees to deal with.


I still think that with such a good signal on RF 3 that you'll have a decent chance at it using the Y10713 pointed at ABC.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15990#post_24599251
> 
> 
> I would not send the 91XG back. Different designs perform differently on out-of-band signals. I've not had any luck with the 91XG receiving anything on VHF.
> 
> 
> OTOH, I just built an 8 element UHF log periodic on a 2 foot boom to bring with me to my parents home in Palm Desert, CA (near Palm Springs). It had to fit in the car. The stations are almost all low power and mostly UHF. I didn't know what to expect. Well I was amazed! I received all the UHF stations which are 11 miles LOS. I also received the two high VHF stations, RF9 had a good signal at 18 miles and it has only 180 watts in my direction. I received RF 12 which is 11 miles away with only 40 watts in my direction but the signal was marginal. The real surprise is that I received RF 4 on low VHF at 11 miles which TVFool predicted to have less than 1 watt in my direction! It was marginal but coming in. The only problem was I had to turn the antenna in a strange direction to get RF 12. The antenna was only 7' off the ground but there were no trees to deal with.
> 
> 
> I still think that with such a good signal on RF 3 that you'll have a decent chance at it using the Y10713 pointed at ABC.



I agree. See what you accomplish with what is planned before trying something else.


----------



## pdsmith505


I'm moving into a new house near Norfolk, VA soon, and decided that I'm going to ditch cable-tv this time around and rely on OTA stations & streaming for everything. I've been able to pick up quite a few channels on a cheap indoor HDTV antenna, but I'd like to look into a more permanent outdoor antenna for better signal and a more "professional" install.


That being said, I've gone to TV Fool and picked up a report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b945035af6da0 


From what it looks like I've got two completely opposite directions to consider. Beyond that, I really don't know what to look for in an antenna, and I was hoping for some suggestions.


Thanks in advance!


----------



## ProjectSHO89

All of your major stations are in one direction. The rest are mostly mom and pop stations. You'll have to investigate each of them to see is they are of interest to you enough for you to put in an effort to receive them.


For the majors, a simple un-amplified loop and rabbit ears in front of a WSW window should work okay.


----------



## pdsmith505




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15990#post_24602194
> 
> 
> All of your major stations are in one direction. The rest are mostly mom and pop stations. You'll have to investigate each of them to see is they are of interest to you enough for you to put in an effort to receive them.
> 
> 
> For the majors, a simple un-amplified loop and rabbit ears in front of a WSW window should work okay.


I was really hoping to be able to run an outdoor antenna through the house's existing co-ax so that all the TV's could utilize the one antenna. In addition to that, the living room happens to be on the NE corner of the bottom floor, so a WSW window is somewhat out of the picture. I probably should have mentioned those factors to begin with, sorry about that.


After looking around, I was thinking of something along the lines of the Winegard MS-2002 mounted at the peak of the roof or in the attic. Any thoughts?


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Omni antennas sound like a great idea, but, in practice, they're a multi-path mess.


First off, go investigate those stations to see if you want them. If not, a small U/V combo mounted outdoors will likely do fine.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15990#post_24597944
> 
> 
> So probably not enough difference to justify sending the 91XG back? I was just wondering if it would solve my issue of getting ABC channel.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


I am currently using the smaller version 43XG in the attic. And I receive RF7, RF9, and RF13 with strong, reliable signals. And 13 is a problematic VHF signal with a spotty pattern from 50 miles. And the antenna is not directly aimed at these stations. So you could give it a try. And if you take one boom off of the 91XG, it becomes a 43XG. And I use a Kitztech 100 preamp, and a CM3414 dist amp further down the line.


----------



## Calaveras

A brief trip report.......


I visited my parents who live in Sun City Palm Desert which is right next to Indio on the eastern end of the Palm Springs market. I had enough material left over from my 33 element UHF log periodic project to build an 8 element UHF log periodic on a 2 foot boom. The design predicted 6 dB gain and 20 dB front to back ratio.The antenna needed to fit in the trunk of my car. I took a 2 piece nylon pole for the mast and a Winegard AP8700 for the preamp.


Palm Springs is a strange market with almost all low power stations on UHF but there are 2 high VHF stations and one low VHF station. RF 9 runs 300 watts, RF 12 90 watts and RF 4 900 watts. One UHF station is only 250 watts. There are also LP analogs. The main networks are in HD except CBS which is an SD sub channel. On cable though CBS is in HD.


With my little antenna at 7' surrounded by homes, no real LOS but just 11 miles from the main transmitter site, I was able to receive all the UHF stations. To my surprise I also received RF 9 and RF12, the latter being marginal. To my amazement I also received KAKZ RF 4 right on the digital cliff. KAKZ has a very directional pattern and TVFool predicted the noise margin at -3 dB since the ERP in my direction was


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15990#post_24605064
> 
> 
> I am currently using the smaller version 43XG in the attic. And I receive RF7, RF9, and RF13 with strong, reliable signals. And 13 is a problematic VHF signal with a spotty pattern from 50 miles. And the antenna is not directly aimed at these stations. So you could give it a try. And if you take one boom off of the 91XG, it becomes a 43XG. And I use a Kitztech 100 preamp, and a CM3414 dist amp further down the line.




I want to point out that a problem of using an antenna for channels for which it was not designed, beyond the frequently negative gain, is that the peak response is often in some direction not pointed at the transmitters. Often pointed at the transmitter is the worst position. It's easy to have a situation where you need to turn the antenna for say a VHF station away from the direction for all the UHF stations. This would ruin UHF reception. Even though there are numerous stories, including my own above, of receiving stations on antennas for which they were not designed, it's always best to use the proper antenna and not just hope you get lucky.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15990#post_24605121
> 
> 
> A brief trip report.......
> 
> 
> I visited my parents who live in Sun City Palm Desert which is right next to Indio on the eastern end of the Palm Springs market. I had enough material left over from my 33 element UHF log periodic project to build an 8 element UHF log periodic on a 2 foot boom. The design predicted 6 dB gain and 20 dB front to back ratio.The antenna needed to fit in the trunk of my car. I took a 2 piece nylon pole for the mast and a Winegard AP8700 for the preamp.
> 
> 
> Palm Springs is a strange market with almost all low power stations on UHF but there are 2 high VHF stations and one low VHF station. RF 9 runs 300 watts, RF 12 90 watts and RF 4 900 watts. One UHF station is only 250 watts. There are also LP analogs. The main networks are in HD except CBS which is an SD sub channel. On cable though CBS is in HD.
> 
> 
> With my little antenna at 7' surrounded by homes, no real LOS but just 11 miles from the main transmitter site, I was able to receive all the UHF stations. To my surprise I also received RF 9 and RF12, the latter being marginal. To my amazement I also received KAKZ RF 4 right on the digital cliff. KAKZ has a very directional pattern and TVFool predicted the noise margin at -3 dB since the ERP in my direction was


----------



## Finch85


Got my 91XG up on the roof and pointed toward what I guessed to be 281 deg. (used a compass app on my phone).  I installed it on the existing dish network j mast on the garage roof.  I got a lot more channels than I thought and even ABC!  My only disappointment is that NBC 10.1 keeps "coming and going."  WHen I first installed the antenna,  I did not hook up the preamp just to see if there would be a difference.  When I hooked up the preamp, I thought it would surely fix the NBC problem.  Well,  I received more channels (26 I think it said) but NBC is still coming and going.  Ideas?


----------



## ProjectSHO89

1. Try adjusting the aim a few degrees at a time, the 91XG is VERY directional.

2. Adjust the antenna up and down within the limits of the dish mount., repeating step one with 6" change in elevation.

3. Investigate a new mounting location and test thoroughly before drilling any holes.


----------



## Finch85

Thanks for the help. I've tried adjusting the aim a few times, nothing. It's as high as it will go on the mast. I justfinished a temporary mount to try it on the 2nd story roof


Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Finch85


I have a two way splitter in my setup, that wouldn't cause this, right?


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15990#post_24617409
> 
> 
> Got my 91XG up on the roof and pointed toward what I guessed to be 281 deg. (used a compass app on my phone).  I installed it on the existing dish network j mast on the garage roof.  I got a lot more channels than I thought and even ABC!  My only disappointment is that NBC 10.1 keeps "coming and going."  WHen I first installed the antenna,  I did not hook up the preamp just to see if there would be a difference.  When I hooked up the preamp, I thought it would surely fix the NBC problem.  Well,  I received more channels (26 I think it said) but NBC is still coming and going.  Ideas?


26 is a UNC network transmitter in Winston Salem on channel 32, a very short distance from WXII which is on channel 31, WSLS (10.1) in on channel 30. Another Winston Salem station is on channel 29.

You may well be a victim of co-channel interference. I wish I could offer a solution, but, I am unfamiliar with the antenna you are using.


----------



## Finch85

I'm getting exactly zero channels now. Went from about 30 to zero. I unhooked the antenna and was going to reconnect the satellite but there are so many coax cables associated with the satellite, I gave up. Was gonna call tonight and cancel. So I reconnected the antenna the way it was and it didn't move a centimeter (I marked the pole and dish mount since they aren't secured yet) and now nothing is coming thru. At first it gave me 7 channels and now nothing. I unhooked the preamp thinking it was that but no dice. Ideas?


Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Finch85


Ok, so I hooked up the rabbit ears on the roof and I've got 8 channels where the 91XG was giving me zero ( it had given me 30 until who knows what the hell happened).  Could there be an issue inside that little black box on the antenna where the coax plugs into?  I'm out of ideas.

 

Wanna hear something funny? The rabbit ears pick up channel 10 when the 91XG couldn't.  Something is not right here.  I'm not getting Fox or CBS though but why would I be getting NBC?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15990#post_24617409
> 
> 
> Got my 91XG up on the roof and pointed toward what I guessed to be 281 deg. (used a compass app on my phone).  I installed it on the existing dish network j mast on the garage roof.  I got a lot more channels than I thought and even ABC!  My only disappointment is that NBC 10.1 keeps "coming and going."  WHen I first installed the antenna,  I did not hook up the preamp just to see if there would be a difference.  When I hooked up the preamp, I thought it would surely fix the NBC problem.  Well,  I received more channels (26 I think it said) but NBC is still coming and going.  Ideas?



This is telling you that it is not s signal strength issue but a multipath issue. Put the antenna up on the 2nd story of your roof in a position not pointed into a tree. I repeat this advice to everyone not because I'm a purist but because this is what's most likely to work.


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24619158
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15990#post_24617409
> 
> 
> Got my 91XG up on the roof and pointed toward what I guessed to be 281 deg. (used a compass app on my phone).  I installed it on the existing dish network j mast on the garage roof.  I got a lot more channels than I thought and even ABC!  My only disappointment is that NBC 10.1 keeps "coming and going."  WHen I first installed the antenna,  I did not hook up the preamp just to see if there would be a difference.  When I hooked up the preamp, I thought it would surely fix the NBC problem.  Well,  I received more channels (26 I think it said) but NBC is still coming and going.  Ideas?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is telling you that it is not s signal strength issue but a multipath issue. Put the antenna up on the 2nd story of your roof in a position not pointed into a tree. I repeat this advice to everyone not because I'm a purist but because this is what's most likely to work.
Click to expand...


I've already tried it up on the 2nd story in many different directions. Check out my latest posts. I'm not getting anything now and the rabbit ears just stopped working. I went to diagnostics on my TV and the signal strength jumps from zero to 43 and status changes from unlock to lock. I just don't get why I was receiving so many channels earlier and now nothing.











Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## Finch85

I also have a mountain in the way.


Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15990#post_24618821
> 
> 
> 26 is a UNC network transmitter in Winston Salem on channel 32, a very short distance from WXII which is on channel 31, WSLS (10.1) in on channel 30. Another Winston Salem station is on channel 29.
> 
> You may well be a victim of co-channel interference. I wish I could offer a solution, but, I am unfamiliar with the antenna you are using.




Do you mean "adjacent channel interference?" Those are not co-channels. TVFool shows 29 and 31 to be so weak that it would be impossible to get adjacent channel interference to 30.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24619179
> 
> 
> I've already tried it up on the 2nd story in many different directions. Check out my latest posts. I'm not getting anything now and the rabbit ears just stopped working. I went to diagnostics on my TV and the signal strength jumps from zero to 43 and status changes from unlock to lock. I just don't get why I was receiving so many channels earlier and now nothing.



I've looked at your recent posts and don't understand what you're saying.


If the 91XG was working fine and then suddenly you got nothing then you have an open between the antenna and the TV. Is this what happened? If so, you'll need to troubleshoot that.


I see you have a Sony TV. The AGC% (Automatic Gain Control) is a signal strength meter but it reads in reverse. The stronger the signal the lower the number. 100% means no signal, i.e. the gain is set to 100%. The stronger the station the lower the gain. The "Signal Strength" meter is a Signal Quality meter and is a % version of the SNR in dB. IOW "Signal Strength" and SNR in that display are the same thing.


Understanding the difference between Signal Quality and Signal Strength can help you troubleshoot problem stations that come and go.


----------



## Finch85

Thanks for the info! I'm not sure what has happened. All I did was try to reconnect the satellite but got all those coax cables mixed up and decided to reconnect the antenna to the splitter on the roof. It had just been connected. That's where my problem started. Plugged the ears in and began receiving signals but now that's out. Just went back out there with the wife on speaker phone and reconnected the big antenna. Held it high as I could on the garage roof and she said the TV came back on. It was working fine earlier setting in the dish mount. It actually picked up more channels (when it was working) on the garage roof than it did on the 2nd story.


Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Go get a new, separate length of coax and run a temporary line to the nearest set, bypassing EVERYTHING. You've given yourself too many variables and now you can't sort them out. Simplify the circuit, make that work, then build the system one step at a time and that should will yield far better results.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24619185
> 
> 
> Do you mean "adjacent channel interference?" Those are not co-channels. TVFool shows 29 and 31 to be so weak that it would be impossible to get adjacent channel interference to 30.


Of course I meant adjacent. I mis-wrote. Thanks.

There are 2 factors that TV Fool can't show.

There are ducts that run through the area. Ground ducts. 80 miles to the south of Roanoke, I received 2 UHF stations from that market with an antenna 4 feet off the ground in a low spot in the terrain. But, WSLS was not one of them. Possibly that was because the adjacent transmitters intervened.

If the station identified as 26 was being received, then there was a duct in play, whether temporary or not, and, that duct would be moving the adjacent channels..

I have no conclusion. I was just pointing to evidence.

Anecdotal reports suggest WSLS is the most difficult UHF station in the market to receive.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15990#post_24619002
> 
> 
> Ok, so I hooked up the rabbit ears on the roof and I've got 8 channels where the 91XG was giving me zero ( it had given me 30 until who knows what the hell happened).  Could there be an issue inside that little black box on the antenna where the coax plugs into?  I'm out of ideas.
> 
> 
> Wanna hear something funny? The rabbit ears pick up channel 10 when the 91XG couldn't.  Something is not right here.  I'm not getting Fox or CBS though but why would I be getting NBC?


Very possibly the 91xg was receiving channel 10, AND, a lot of other stuff that kept the TV from decoding a watchable signal.. The more observations you provide, the more likely a solution will be had.


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24619939
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/15990#post_24619002
> 
> 
> Ok, so I hooked up the rabbit ears on the roof and I've got 8 channels where the 91XG was giving me zero ( it had given me 30 until who knows what the hell happened).  Could there be an issue inside that little black box on the antenna where the coax plugs into?  I'm out of ideas.
> 
> 
> Wanna hear something funny? The rabbit ears pick up channel 10 when the 91XG couldn't.  Something is not right here.  I'm not getting Fox or CBS though but why would I be getting NBC?
> 
> 
> 
> Very possibly the 91xg was receiving channel 10, AND, a lot of other stuff that kept the TV from decoding a watchable signal.. The more observations you provide, the more likely a solution will be had.
Click to expand...


What would keep the TV from decoding a watchable signal?


Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## Pete-N2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *difuse*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24619930
> 
> 
> 
> Anecdotal reports suggest WSLS is the most difficult UHF station in the market to receive.



Not 48 miles east of the towers. WSLS is the strongest indicating 32dB SNR and 98% on the Sony. Everyone else (WBRA 15/3 excluded) is around 30dB with 87% quality. In the next couple of weeks as the leaves come out I expect the quality to go down slightly. 38/6 and 27/18 will degrade significantly and 38/36 will become unusable due to constant decode errors.


In the summer before I plan my viewing schedule, I check the weather radar. If there are any thunderstorms visible on the map I disregard 15/3. If I really want to see a program, I record the program from an early AM (1 to 5AM) rebroadcast.


----------



## Pete-N2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24620099
> 
> 
> What would keep the TV from decoding a watchable signal?



Mulitpath. Did you ever have an analog TV? How bad was the ghosting? How do you troubleshoot digital signal issues? Anyone?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pete-N2*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24620161
> 
> 
> Not 48 miles east of the towers. WSLS is the strongest indicating 32dB SNR and 98% on the Sony. Everyone else (WBRA 15/3 excluded) is around 30dB with 87% quality. In the next couple of weeks as the leaves come out I expect the quality to go down slightly. 38/6 and 27/18 will degrade significantly and 38/36 will become unusable due to constant decode errors.



I invite everyone to read the 4th link in my signature where I took a stab at explaining the relationship between signal strength and signal quality amongst other DTV issues. It's not correct to judge the signal strength of a station from its SNR. One of the strongest stations I have here (30 dB noise margin) has the lowest SNR due to multipath.




> Quote:
> In the summer before I plan my viewing schedule, I check the weather radar. If there are any thunderstorms visible on the map I disregard 15/3. If I really want to see a program, I record the program from an early AM (1 to 5AM) rebroadcast.



Oh yeah, another issue with low VHF, noise from lightning strikes. Although an infrequent issue here on the west coast, I have seen it on channel 7 which is a weak station here from occasional afternoon thunderstorms over the Sierra Nevada crest 50 miles away. There's still another issue with low VHF: co-channel interference from stations being propagated by sporadic-E. Mid May through early August is the worst for that and east of the Rockies.




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pete-N2*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24620168
> 
> 
> Mulitpath. Did you ever have an analog TV? How bad was the ghosting? How do you troubleshoot digital signal issues? Anyone?



It's easy to do if you have a real signal strength meter and a signal quality (SNR) meter. AFAIK this information is available from all tuners but signal strength is not provided for the user in most TVs. Sony is an exception and there are others. The PC based systems provide real signal strength too. It's essentially impossible to figure out without access to both readings. With some experience you can take a guess as to which signals are likely to be strong. For example, a 1000 KW station 30 miles away LOS is not going to be weak.


----------



## Pete-N2

10/30 AGC 38%, SNR 32dB

27/17 AGC 45% SNR 31dB

15/3 AGC 24% SNR 27dB


15 is the strongest signal, 10 is the strongest UHF signal based on AGC values


edit: of the stations located on Poor Mountain...


----------



## Pete-N2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24620439
> 
> 
> I invite everyone to read the 4th link in my signature where I took a stab at explaining the relationship between signal strength and signal quality amongst other DTV issues



What is the easiest way to get there?


----------



## mulliganman

Newbie to this forum needing some help. I am combining an Antennas Direct 91XG and Antennas Direct C2V with this device: http://www.tinlee.com/PDF/AC7-customer%20general%20hookup%20Info.pdf 


The single line runs to a Channel Master 3414 distribution amp.


I am trying to connect to the new Channel Master DVR+. But, I am seeing quite a bit of signal quality fluctuation on my local ABC channels (KSPR and CW) according to the DVR+ diagnostics. This is resulting in some video and audio difficulties on those channels.


Here is my TV fool: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3D5b940f11af42d0 


I am getting the channels in the green and Fox KRBK. I don't see the issues on TV's not connected to the DVR+. I would really like to make this work and am looking for help as to what is going on. Any suggestions/help is appreciated.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pete-N2*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24620637
> 
> 
> What is the easiest way to get there?



I don't understand your question. Click on the last link in my signature below.


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pete-N2*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24620161
> 
> 
> Not 48 miles east of the towers. WSLS is the strongest indicating 32dB SNR and 98% on the Sony. Everyone else (WBRA 15/3 excluded) is around 30dB with 87% quality. In the next couple of weeks as the leaves come out I expect the quality to go down slightly. 38/6 and 27/18 will degrade significantly and 38/36 will become unusable due to constant decode errors.
> 
> 
> In the summer before I plan my viewing schedule, I check the weather radar. If there are any thunderstorms visible on the map I disregard 15/3. If I really want to see a program, I record the program from an early AM (1 to 5AM) rebroadcast.


Pete, do not doubt you are OK with WSLS. I was referencing south of the transmitters., and should have so stated.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24621152
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand your question. Click on the last link in my signature below.
Click to expand...

Hi Chuck,

 

I happened to look at your posts on my HTPC which is running the discontinued Win XP with IE 8 which AVS puts a banner on saying that support for IE 8 will be ending soon.

 

*Your signature with it's links does not appear.  Nothing at all.*

 

My W7 Laptop with IE 11 has your signature appearing as you wish and the links all work.

 



 

So some people may not be seeing your signature and it's links.  Their TMMV.

 

SHF


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24620099
> 
> 
> What would keep the TV from decoding a watchable signal?
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk



Multipath, which is the same signal coming from more than one direction because it is bouncing off something; adjacent channel interference, possible in your location,,,,,,,;sum and difference harmonics from RF other than TV, like FM radio.........that the simple rabbit ears might be performing better suggests, but does not prove, that the larger antenna was picking up something undesirable..


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mulliganman*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24620968
> 
> 
> Newbie to this forum needing some help. I am combining an Antennas Direct 91XG and Antennas Direct C2V with this device: http://www.tinlee.com/PDF/AC7-customer%20general%20hookup%20Info.pdf
> 
> 
> The single line runs to a Channel Master 3414 distribution amp.
> 
> 
> I am trying to connect to the new Channel Master DVR+. But, I am seeing quite a bit of signal quality fluctuation on my local ABC channels (KSPR and CW) according to the DVR+ diagnostics. This is resulting in some video and audio difficulties on those channels.
> 
> 
> Here is my TV fool: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3D5b940f11af42d0
> 
> 
> I am getting the channels in the green and Fox KRBK. I don't see the issues on TV's not connected to the DVR+. I would really like to make this work and am looking for help as to what is going on. Any suggestions/help is appreciated.





KSPR is a VERY strong station. I wonder if you might be overloading the DVR+ tuner? I'm not familiar with that device. Try putting a 10 dB attenuator on the DVR+ only.


Just for my own info, which station is being added and which antenna is used on the single channel port on the on the Tinlee Single Channel Injector?


----------



## Finch85


Made some progress but I think something has happened to my RCA preamp. Here's several outcomes.

 

1. Ran coax directly from ANT to a coupling which then fed my TV.  I forgot and left the portion of the preamp that connects to the TV.  The actually preamp was not connected.  I received 20 channels including channel 10 which was in/out all of yesterday.

 

2. Connected preamp to ANT, coax from there to coupling that goes to TV. =   2 channels (FOX)

 

3.  Same as step 2 but switched preamp to "combined" = 7 channels (not channel 10 though)

 

4.  Same as above but switched preamp to FM trap to "ON" =  7 channels 

 

5. Completely took out preamp.  So a wire from ANT to the coupling then to the TV.  Portion of preamp disconnected from back of TV = 20 channels including channel 10.

 

6.  Same as above but installed a new 2 way splitter and connected TV2.  TV = 16 channels (incl. NBC) and TV2 = 18 channels.

 

Conclusion

 

Something is going on with the preamp I assume.  Yesterday,  I received about 30 channels with the preamp connected but channel 10 was very intermittent.  Then something happened and I was getting very little channels.  I'm happy with my current situation but I'm just curious what is wrong with the preamp, if anything.  Ideally,  I would like 30 channels like I was getting but I have everything I initially stated that I wanted.  I really would like PBS ( I was receiving it yesterday when the preamp was connected).


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24621215
> 
> 
> Hi Chuck,
> 
> 
> I happened to look at your posts on my HTPC which is running the discontinued Win XP with IE 8 which AVS puts a banner on saying that support for IE 8 will be ending soon.
> 
> *Your signature with it's links does not appear.  Nothing at all.*
> 
> 
> My W7 Laptop with IE 11 has your signature appearing as you wish and the links all work.
> 
> 
> 
> So some people may not be seeing your signature and it's links.  Their TMMV.
> 
> 
> SHF




Good grief! I thought the signature was part of the web page. Leave it to MS is mess up something like that.


This appears to work:


Antenna Block Diagram | UHF-VHF-FM Antennas | DIY High VHF Log Periodic Antenna | Article on Preamps, SNR/NM/Signal Strength, etc.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24621248
> 
> 
> Conclusion
> 
> 
> Something is going on with the preamp I assume.  Yesterday,  I received about 30 channels with the preamp connected but channel 10 was very intermittent.  Then something happened and I was getting very little channels.  I'm happy with my current situation but I'm just curious what is wrong with the preamp, if anything.  Ideally,  I would like 30 channels like I was getting but I have everything I initially stated that I wanted.  I really would like PBS ( I was receiving it yesterday when the preamp was connected).



Sounds like you diagnosed it correctly. Somehow I missed that you were using a preamp. It's hard to keep track of everyone's setups and various channels and what bands they are on.






I have no idea what happened to your preamp but you need to replace it.


BTW, are you saying you were receiving PBS RF 3 on the 91XG?


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24621301
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24621248
> 
> 
> Conclusion
> 
> 
> Something is going on with the preamp I assume.  Yesterday,  I received about 30 channels with the preamp connected but channel 10 was very intermittent.  Then something happened and I was getting very little channels.  I'm happy with my current situation but I'm just curious what is wrong with the preamp, if anything.  Ideally,  I would like 30 channels like I was getting but I have everything I initially stated that I wanted.  I really would like PBS ( I was receiving it yesterday when the preamp was connected).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like you diagnosed it correctly. Somehow I missed that you were using a preamp. It's hard to keep track of everyone's setups and various channels and what bands they are on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea what happened to your preamp but you need to replace it.
> 
> 
> BTW, are you saying you were receiving PBS RF 3 on the 91XG?
Click to expand...



Yes, I guess when the preamp was working, I was receiving PBS and ABC but not channel 10. Still getting ABC and now 10.



Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## mulliganman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24621242
> 
> 
> KSPR is a VERY strong station. I wonder if you might be overloading the DVR+ tuner? I'm not familiar with that device. Try putting a 10 dB attenuator on the DVR+ only.
> 
> 
> Just for my own info, which station is being added and which antenna is used on the single channel port on the on the Tinlee Single Channel Injector?



Can you refer me to a 10db attenuator? I'm not familiar with that. The Antennas Direct 91XG is used for the single channel port passing the signal from Fox KRBK to the Tinlee Single Channel Injector. The C2V is passing signals from the other stations.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24621260
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24621215
> 
> 
> Hi Chuck,
> 
> 
> I happened to look at your posts on my HTPC which is running the discontinued Win XP with IE 8 which AVS puts a banner on saying that support for IE 8 will be ending soon.
> 
> *Your signature with it's links does not appear.  Nothing at all.*
> 
> 
> My W7 Laptop with IE 11 has your signature appearing as you wish and the links all work.
> 
> 
> 
> So some people may not be seeing your signature and it's links.  Their TMMV.
> 
> 
> SHF
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good grief! I thought the signature was part of the web page. Leave it to MS is mess up something like that.
> 
> 
> Hopefully this works:
> 
> http://www.aa6g.org/Noise/noise.html
Click to expand...

Hi,

 

You might look into putting the links also into your profile.

 

I have a lot of stuff in my profile but some needed to be forced in and clearly it was not set up for what I wish to use it for.

 

It's NOT MS but AVS that wants you to use Crome, Foxiefire and other browsers.

 



So AVS does not want you to use IE 8 and  IE 11 AVS just is not getting around to supporting.

 

It's actually the Rich Text Editor (RTE) that AVS uses that does not play nice with IE 11. I checked a few months ago and the RTE appeared to include support for IE 11 but the latest version just is not appearing on AVS.

 

SHF


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24621373
> 
> 
> So AVS does not want you to use IE 8 and  IE 11 AVS just is not getting around to supporting.
> 
> 
> It's actually the Rich Text Editor (RTE) that AVS uses that does not play nice with IE 11. I checked a few months ago and the RTE appeared to include support for IE 11 but the latest version just is not appearing on AVS.
> 
> 
> SHF



Thanks for the heads up but man is this frustrating. I normally use Safari on a Mac which displays signatures. I checked Firefox and no signatures. I tried IE11 under Parallels and no signatures. If most of the people are not going to see it then there's no point even bothering with a signature. I may try something else. How about this?



Antenna Block Diagram | UHF-VHF-FM Antennas | DIY High VHF Log Periodic Antenna | Article on Preamps, SNR/NM/Signal Strength, etc.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mulliganman*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24621326
> 
> 
> Can you refer me to a 10db attenuator? I'm not familiar with that.



Yes. Here's an inexpensive one:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=SKY1680310&ss=109287 


Antenna Block Diagram | UHF-VHF-FM Antennas | DIY High VHF Log Periodic Antenna | Article on Preamps, SNR/NM/Signal Strength, etc.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mulliganman*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24621326
> 
> 
> The Antennas Direct 91XG is used for the single channel port passing the signal from Fox KRBK to the Tinlee Single Channel Injector. The C2V is passing signals from the other stations.



Seems like a good setup to me. Are you using a preamp on the C2V?


Antenna Block Diagram | UHF-VHF-FM Antennas | DIY High VHF Log Periodic Antenna | Article on Preamps, SNR/NM/Signal Strength, etc.


----------



## mulliganman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24621535
> 
> 
> Seems like a good setup to me. Are you using a preamp on the C2V?
> 
> 
> Antenna Block Diagram | UHF-VHF-FM Antennas | DIY High VHF Log Periodic Antenna | Article on Preamps, SNR/NM/Signal Strength, etc.



No preamp is being used currently on either antenna. I am utilizing a Channel Master 3414 distribution amp that is splitting my signal to three TV's. My signal strength on the DVR+ for Fox KRBK shows signal strength in the low to mid forties on the DVR+ (mid seventies on non-connected TV sets). Would running the attenuator further reduce that signal?


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16020#post_24621477
> 
> 
> ... How about this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Antenna Block Diagram | UHF-VHF-FM Antennas | DIY High VHF Log Periodic Antenna | Article on Preamps, SNR/NM/Signal Strength, etc.


Hi,

 

OK, that shows up on IE 8.

 

The only problem I see is that when I zoom to 150% on IE 11 (W7) the text size changes with the post text.

 

I liked the old signature method where it stayed small.

 



I played around with a signature a while ago and quickly removed it as it was too much in your face.

 

You do know that changing your signature changes it for all posts you make way back to 1/27/07.

 

 

As this is off topic perhaps we should move to the "Forum Operations Center" Part of "AVS Forum Information" where the AVS experts (And Managers / Programmers) sometimes read the posts and might change AVS or offer a better idea.

 

SHF


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mulliganman*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24621553
> 
> 
> No preamp is being used currently on either antenna. I am utilizing a Channel Master 3414 distribution amp that is splitting my signal to three TV's. My signal strength on the DVR+ for Fox KRBK shows signal strength in the low to mid forties on the DVR+ (mid seventies on non-connected TV sets). Would running the attenuator further reduce that signal?




I'm only suggesting that you try it on the DVR+ since you're not having the issue on the other TVs. Just to be sure, try the DVR on a different splitter port and try a different cable. I'd also try the DVR+ by itself on the antenna with no distribution amplifier. If that doesn't fix the issue then it's probably not overload.


The "Signal Strength" you're referring to is almost certainly Signal Quality so you really don't know how strong the signals are. The % scale used in any Signal Quality meter is up to the discretion of the firmware engineer and there is no conformity from device to device. See the fourth link below.


Antenna Block Diagram | UHF-VHF-FM Antennas | DIY High VHF Log Periodic Antenna | Article on Preamps, SNR/NM/Signal Strength, etc.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24621615
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> 
> OK, that shows up on IE 8.
> 
> 
> The only problem I see is that when I zoom to 150% on IE 11 (W7) the text size changes with the post text.
> 
> 
> I liked the old signature method where it stayed small.
> 
> 
> 
> I played around with a signature a while ago and quickly removed it as it was too much in your face.
> 
> 
> You do know that changing your signature changes it for all posts you make way back to 1/27/07.
> 
> 
> 
> As this is off topic perhaps we should move to the "Forum Operations Center" Part of "AVS Forum Information" where the AVS experts (And Managers / Programmers) sometimes read the posts and might change AVS or offer a better idea.
> 
> 
> SHF




Right. This is OT and I'll drop it with this post. I only started using the signature a brief time ago. If many people are not seeing it then there's no point in using it.


Antenna Block Diagram | UHF-VHF-FM Antennas | DIY High VHF Log Periodic Antenna | Article on Preamps, SNR/NM/Signal Strength, etc.


----------



## mulliganman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24621902
> 
> 
> I'm only suggesting that you try it on the DVR+ since you're not having the issue on the other TVs.
> 
> 
> The Tivo Roamio I have on the same antenna setup has zero issues with the signals...


----------



## mulliganman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24621902
> 
> 
> 
> The "Signal Strength" you're referring to is almost certainly Signal Quality so you really don't know how strong the signals are. The % scale used in any Signal Quality meter is up to the discretion of the firmware engineer and there is no conformity from device to device. See the fourth link below.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure? There is both a "signal strength" and "signal quality" listed in the settings of the DVR+?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mulliganman*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24622013
> 
> 
> Are you sure? There is both a "signal strength" and "signal quality" listed in the settings of the DVR+?



Now that you bring it up, I remember someone else saying the DVR+ has both. Few devices have both.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mulliganman*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24622001
> 
> 
> 
> The Tivo Roamio I have on the same antenna setup has zero issues with the signals...




I have the TiVo Roamio also and it has good tuners in it but no signal strength meter.


Have you run all the suggested tests on the DVR+?


What does the Roamio show for SNR on the problem channel? If you've never looked for SNR before it is located here:


TiVo: Settings & Messages: Account & System Info: DVR Diagnostics


Then scroll down through the 4 tuners until you find the one tuned to the problem channel.


Antenna Block Diagram | UHF-VHF-FM Antennas | DIY High VHF Log Periodic Antenna | Article on Preamps, SNR/NM/Signal Strength, etc.


----------



## mulliganman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24622227
> 
> 
> I have the TiVo Roamio also and it has good tuners in it but no signal strength meter.
> 
> 
> Have you run all the suggested tests on the DVR+?
> 
> 
> What does the Roamio show for SNR on the problem channel? If you've never looked for SNR before it is located here:
> 
> 
> TiVo: Settings & Messages: Account & System Info: DVR Diagnostics
> 
> 
> Then scroll down through the 4 tuners until you find the one tuned to the problem channel.
> 
> 
> Antenna Block Diagram | UHF-VHF-FM Antennas | DIY High VHF Log Periodic Antenna | Article on Preamps, SNR/NM/Signal Strength, etc.



The SNR on the Roamio for this channel shows 24 dB. On the Roamio though, the picture issues I have described are not present.


----------



## Finch85

Well, got it 90% installed. I canceled my directv today and was able to install the antenna in its place. I used the dish network mast inside of the directv mast (almost perfect fit) and slid the antenna mast into both and fastened with three S.S. bolts. Might add another.


All I have left to do is ground (I installed two ground rods today (an additional one close to my meter base) since I'm replacing my electric panel next week.


I also want to get another preamp but currently I'm getting everything I want. CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX, PBS, and several more. Here's a pic. Don't mind the hanging coax....I ran out of time but I'll make it neat. Thanks for all the help.




Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## Finch85











Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## Finch85

Well crap, I'm not getting PBS anymore. Maybe it will come in when I get another preamp .


Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mulliganman*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24622425
> 
> 
> The SNR on the Roamio for this channel shows 24 dB. On the Roamio though, the picture issues I have described are not present.



I wanted to know if the SNR was close to the cliff but it's not. 24 dB is good. I can only recommend that you try all the tests I suggested.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24622515
> 
> 
> Well crap, I'm not getting PBS anymore. Maybe it will come in when I get another preamp .
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk




Maybe it'll come in when you get a low VHF antenna.







It has to be a very marginal signal on that antenna and as conditions vary the station will come and go.



Antenna Block Diagram | UHF-VHF-FM Antennas | DIY High VHF Log Periodic Antenna | Article on Preamps, SNR/NM/Signal Strength, etc.


----------



## mulliganman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24622552
> 
> 
> I wanted to know if the SNR was close to the cliff but it's not. 24 dB is good. I can only recommend that you try all the tests I suggested.



Are you still suggeting trying the attenuator? Also, are you referring to the suggestions in post 16053?


----------



## difuse




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24622566
> 
> 
> Maybe it'll come in when you get a low VHF antenna.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has to be a very marginal signal on that antenna and as conditions vary the station will come and go.
> 
> 
> 
> Antenna Block Diagram | UHF-VHF-FM Antennas | DIY High VHF Log Periodic Antenna | Article on Preamps, SNR/NM/Signal Strength, etc.




I think it possible the pre-amp could cause more problems than it might solve. I'd pitch in with a simple, separate antenna for channel 3


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24622515
> 
> 
> Well crap, I'm not getting PBS anymore. Maybe it will come in when I get another preamp .
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


As suggested, a VHF Low antenna is needed for reliable reception of PBS. Check Solid Signal for some inexpensive Antennacraft models. As for the preamp, make sure the power supply is installed in the line correctly and the splitter properly passes power. See Denny's Antenna site for a diagram on how to properly install a preamp and a splitter. Also, be sure the VHF/UHF switch on the RCA preamp is on combined. But if you add separate VHF/UHF antennas, it should be on separate. Also have the FM trap switched on. If you have some weak, fringe signals, then you may want to consider a Kitztech preamp. The low noise can make a difference.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mulliganman*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24622644
> 
> 
> Are you still suggeting trying the attenuator? Also, are you referring to the suggestions in post 16053?



Yes to the latter and if all those are good then yes to the former.


----------



## mulliganman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24622763
> 
> 
> Yes to the latter and if all those are good then yes to the former.



Just to clarify, when you say to try it on a different splitter port, I assume you are referring to the CM3414. Is that correct?


Also, I have had the same issue with same said channels on two different TV's with the DVR+. Wouldn't that eliminate a bad cable being a culprit?


----------



## Finch85


Since the preamp I had was a 2 input and if I decide not to use it,  what do I need to combine signals from two antennas?  It will be the 91XG and some other VHF Low ANT.  (Still unsure why I shouldn't have gotten a HDB91X?)   Sounds like it would pick up everything.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mulliganman*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24622786
> 
> 
> Just to clarify, when you say to try it on a different splitter port, I assume you are referring to the CM3414. Is that correct?



Yes.



> Quote:
> Also, I have had the same issue with same said channels on two different TV's with the DVR+. Wouldn't that eliminate a bad cable being a culprit?




I've been assuming that the TVs are connected to the DVR+ with HDMI so you're using the tuner in the DVR+. Is this not correct?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24622814
> 
> 
> Since the preamp I had was a 2 input and if I decide not to use it,  what do I need to combine signals from two antennas?  It will be the 91XG and some other VHF Low ANT.  (Still unsure why I shouldn't have gotten a HDB91X?)   Sounds like it would pick up everything.



You should use the preamp.


The HDB91X is essentially a 91XG clone. It is a UHF only antenna. It has no gain and no normal directionality on VHF. If you have enough signal you can receive stations with a paperclip in the TV antenna connector. That's how they make the claim of "25 miles on high band VHF" for that antenna. That means 25 miles for a full power station line-of-sight. You don't have those conditions.


I don't understand why you're fighting this so. Several people have given you good advice.


I'm sticking with my compromise advice; two input preamp, 91XG, Y-10713 pointed at ABC and you'll likely be able to receive PBS on RF 3 because it's the strongest station. My optimum advice is the Y526 for PBS and the Y-10713 summed together and connected to the preamp VHF input and the 91XG. That's what it takes at your location to have the best chance of reliable reception.



Antenna Block Diagram | UHF-VHF-FM Antennas | DIY High VHF Log Periodic Antenna | Article on Preamps, SNR/NM/Signal Strength, etc.


----------



## mulliganman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24623813
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> I've been assuming that the TVs are connected to the DVR+ with HDMI so you're using the tuner in the DVR+. Is this not correct?



Yes, I have been running the coaxial cable from each TV into the DVR+ so as to use its tuner.


Well, I have run the tests and here are the results. I switched a couple of the bottom ports of the CM3414 around (one being the TV connected to the DVR+) and it had no effect. No noticeable difference.


Then, I disconnected the combined antenna output (from the combined antennas on the roof) and plugged it into an "in" on a Holland splitter. I then took the coaxial cable from the TV connected to the DVR+ and connected it into one of the "outs" of that same Holland splitter (bypassing the CM3414). My Fox signal strength and signal quality both dropped to around 10%. Other signals strengths dropped somewhat too but not as dramatic as the Fox station. As far as the troublesome ABC stations on the DVR+ the same issues of video/audio troubles were still present.


I did notice that the coaxial cable coming from the roof had a little bit of exposed copper type substances at the end near the silver cap. I have another line of coaxial cable that doesn't look like that that can be used for the combined output line of the two antennas. Would that cause the issue? I might be wrong but it seems if that was the issue wouldn't all the channels be bad on the DVR+ and wouldn't I be having issues on the Roamio too?


Any other ideas?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mulliganman*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24624441
> 
> 
> As far as the troublesome ABC stations on the DVR+ the same issues of video/audio troubles were still present.



Is there any variance in the break-up, i.e. anytime when it is fine or anytime when the station is out completely?



> Quote:
> Any other ideas?



I think the CM3414 is the same amplifier as my CM3410 except the CM3414 has a built-in 4-way splitter. I found I can still receive the strongest stations with the CM unplugged. There's a big drop in signal strength but still enough. Try unplugging the CM3414 and see what happens. You should be able to receive the top 3 stations in your TVFool list still. That will be the attenuator test. If ABC still has exactly the same issue then the DVR+ is having an issue with that station and there may be no solution.


You've never explained exactly what the video/audio issue is. Can you describe exactly what you're seeing? I've been assuming your ABC issue is so bad that the channel is unwatchable. My original DTVPal DVR had a issue with my local ABC station that no other tuner had. The video and/or audio had a very brief glitch every few minutes. Depending on the scene it often went unnoticed. It was occasionally annoying but not unwatchable.



Antenna Block Diagram | UHF-VHF-FM Antennas | DIY High VHF Log Periodic Antenna | Article on Preamps, SNR/NM/Signal Strength, etc.


----------



## mulliganman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24624558
> 
> 
> Is there any variance in the break-up, i.e. anytime when it is fine or anytime when the station is out completely?
> 
> I think the CM3414 is the same amplifier as my CM3410 except the CM3414 has a built-in 4-way splitter. I found I can still receive the strongest stations with the CM unplugged. There's a big drop in signal strength but still enough. Try unplugging the CM3414 and see what happens. You should be able to receive the top 3 stations in your TVFool list still. That will be the attenuator test. If ABC still has exactly the same issue then the DVR+ is having an issue with that station and there may be no solution.
> 
> 
> You've never explained exactly what the video/audio issue is. Can you describe exactly what you're seeing? I've been assuming your ABC issue is so bad that the channel is unwatchable. My original DTVPal DVR had a issue with my local ABC station that no other tuner had. The video and/or audio had a very brief glitch every few minutes. Depending on the scene it often went unnoticed. It was occasionally annoying but not unwatchable.
> 
> 
> 
> Antenna Block Diagram | UHF-VHF-FM Antennas | DIY High VHF Log Periodic Antenna | Article on Preamps, SNR/NM/Signal Strength, etc.


If by variance, you mean if I have noticed any patterns with the channels I haven't. At times it is okay. But, a lot of times it isn't. The issues are the image/audio cuts out making it very difficult to watch. The signal quality fluctuations affect the severity of the issue. As of yet, I have never seen the channel go out completely with no evidence of any picture.


I will try unplugging and report back.


----------



## mulliganman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24624558
> 
> 
> Is there any variance in the break-up, i.e. anytime when it is fine or anytime when the station is out completely?
> 
> I think the CM3414 is the same amplifier as my CM3410 except the CM3414 has a built-in 4-way splitter. I found I can still receive the strongest stations with the CM unplugged. There's a big drop in signal strength but still enough. Try unplugging the CM3414 and see what happens. You should be able to receive the top 3 stations in your TVFool list still. That will be the attenuator test. If ABC still has exactly the same issue then the DVR+ is having an issue with that station and there may be no solution.
> 
> 
> You've never explained exactly what the video/audio issue is. Can you describe exactly what you're seeing? I've been assuming your ABC issue is so bad that the channel is unwatchable. My original DTVPal DVR had a issue with my local ABC station that no other tuner had. The video and/or audio had a very brief glitch every few minutes. Depending on the scene it often went unnoticed. It was occasionally annoying but not unwatchable.
> 
> 
> 
> Antenna Block Diagram | UHF-VHF-FM Antennas | DIY High VHF Log Periodic Antenna | Article on Preamps, SNR/NM/Signal Strength, etc.



I unplugged the CM3414 and checked the stations on the DVR+ TV. Signal strengths ranged from the twenties to forties. Interestingly enough, ABC was not the strongest signal. Yes, the video/audio issues were still present. Possibly, even more pronounced.


Another question for you: On your Roamio, are the "RS Uncorrected" values all at 0 on all channels? You can check in the DVR Diagnostics menu option.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mulliganman*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24624652
> 
> 
> If by variance, you mean if I have noticed any patterns with the channels I haven't. At times it is okay. But, a lot of times it isn't. The issues are the image/audio cuts out making it very difficult to watch. The signal quality fluctuations affect the severity of the issue. As of yet, I have never seen the channel go out completely with no evidence of any picture.




That rules out overload. The fact that the station never completely goes away is telling us something. Does the DVR+ show signal strength fluctuations as well as signal quality fluctuations? And is the signal quality stable on the other tuners?




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mulliganman*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24624721
> 
> 
> I unplugged the CM3414 and checked the stations on the DVR+ TV. Signal strengths ranged from the twenties to forties. Interestingly enough, ABC was not the strongest signal. Yes, the video/audio issues were still present. Possibly, even more pronounced.
> 
> 
> Another question for you: On your Roamio, are the "RS Uncorrected" values all at 0 on all channels? You can check in the DVR Diagnostics menu option.




No, the lower SNR channels have some count. If the SNR drops below 15 dB then it goes up to a huge number.


You may be at the point where at least a spectrum analyzer is needed to look at the signal to get a better idea of the problem.



Antenna Block Diagram | UHF-VHF-FM Antennas | DIY High VHF Log Periodic Antenna | Article on Preamps, SNR/NM/Signal Strength, etc.


----------



## mulliganman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24624829
> 
> 
> That rules out overload. The fact that the station never completely goes away is telling us something. Does the DVR+ show signal strength fluctuations as well as signal quality fluctuations? And is the signal quality stable on the other tuners?
> 
> No, the lower SNR channels have some count. If the SNR drops below 15 dB then it goes up to a huge number.
> 
> 
> You may be at the point where at least a spectrum analyzer is needed to look at the signal to get a better idea of the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Antenna Block Diagram | UHF-VHF-FM Antennas | DIY High VHF Log Periodic Antenna | Article on Preamps, SNR/NM/Signal Strength, etc.



When you mention if there are signal strength fluctuations and if the signal quality is stable on other tuners do you mean while the CM3414 is unplugged or plugged in?


What is a spectrum analyzer and where do you get one and how is it used?


----------



## mulliganman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24624829
> 
> 
> That rules out overload. The fact that the station never completely goes away is telling us something. Does the DVR+ show signal strength fluctuations as well as signal quality fluctuations? And is the signal quality stable on the other tuners?
> 
> No, the lower SNR channels have some count. If the SNR drops below 15 dB then it goes up to a huge number.
> 
> 
> You may be at the point where at least a spectrum analyzer is needed to look at the signal to get a better idea of the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Antenna Block Diagram | UHF-VHF-FM Antennas | DIY High VHF Log Periodic Antenna | Article on Preamps, SNR/NM/Signal Strength, etc.



I am going to assume you meant signal strength and signal quality fluctuations with the CM3414 amp plugged in. When I did a scan and looked at signal strength and signal quality of all channels, I noticed that the only other channel with slight movements in both is Fox KRBK (that signal coming from the Antennas Direct 91XG). The other channels are at 100% signal strength and signal quality. The two ABC channels can have huge fluctuations in signal quality. The signal strength of the ABC channels does not fluctuate. It sits at 100% every time I have checked.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mulliganman*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24624864
> 
> 
> When you mention if there are signal strength fluctuations and if the signal quality is stable on other tuners do you mean while the CM3414 is unplugged or plugged in?
> 
> 
> What is a spectrum analyzer and where do you get one and how is it used?



CM3414 plugged in.


A spectrum analyzer allows you to view the actual signal coming in from the antenna. It plots signal strength versus frequency. Below is an example of DTV channel 40 received here and is a nearly perfect example of what the signal should look like. With experience it can help you troubleshoot reception problems. Since they're very expensive you won't be going out to buy one.


----------



## mulliganman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24625023
> 
> 
> CM3414 plugged in.
> 
> 
> A spectrum analyzer allows you to view the actual signal coming in from the antenna. It plots signal strength versus frequency. Below is an example of DTV channel 40 received here and is a nearly perfect example of what the signal should look like. With experience it can help you troubleshoot reception problems. Since they're very expensive you won't be going out to buy one.



I see. Does that mean I am "stuck"?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mulliganman*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24624975
> 
> 
> I am going to assume you meant signal strength and signal quality fluctuations with the CM3414 amp plugged in. When I did a scan and looked at signal strength and signal quality of all channels, I noticed that the only other channel with slight movements in both is Fox KRBK (that signal coming from the Antennas Direct 91XG). The other channels are at 100% signal strength and signal quality. The two ABC channels can have huge fluctuations in signal quality. The signal strength of the ABC channels does not fluctuate. It sits at 100% every time I have checked.



You have just one ABC station with two sub channels. Both sub channels will act the same. BTW, HDMI is not a coax cable, it is a multi wire digital cable. Any TV connected to the DVR+ with HDMI will behave the same.


Is the antenna for ABC looking through a tree? Is the signal quality of ABC stable on the Roamio or does it jump around, even by only a small amount? I don't need to know about the other stations, only ABC and how it behaves on each of your tuners connected to the antenna, not to the DVR+ with HDMI.


So they assigned some arbitrary signal strength to be 100%. Any signal stronger will be 100%. That's like saying a gallon container is 100% when 1/2 full and anything above 1/2 full is still 100%. That's not helpful which is why you need a spectrum analyzer to actually see the signal when you have a problem.


If ABC had this same problem on every tuner I'd say you had dynamic multipath which can easily be blamed on moving vegetation. It's hard to see why it would affect only one tuner unless the DVR+ is deficient in this area.


Are you stuck? Maybe. Depends on what your other tuners show.


----------



## mulliganman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24625111
> 
> 
> You have just one ABC station with two sub channels. Both sub channels will act the same. BTW, HDMI is not a coax cable, it is a multi wire digital cable. Any TV connected to the DVR+ with HDMI will behave the same.
> 
> 
> Is the antenna for ABC looking through a tree? Is the signal quality of ABC stable on the Roamio or does it jump around, even by only a small amount? I don't need to know about the other stations, only ABC and how it behaves on each of your tuners connected to the antenna, not to the DVR+ with HDMI.
> 
> 
> So they assigned some arbitrary signal strength to be 100%. Any signal stronger will be 100%. That's like saying a gallon container is 100% when 1/2 full and anything above 1/2 full is still 100%. That's not helpful which is why you need a spectrum analyzer to actually see the signal when you have a problem.
> 
> 
> If ABC had this same problem on every tuner I'd say you had dynamic multipath which can easily be blamed on moving vegetation. It's hard to see why it would affect only one tuner unless the DVR+ is deficient in this area.
> 
> 
> Are you stuck? Maybe. Depends on what your other tuners show.



The only sub-channel I am aware for ABC is 33.2 (CW). Yes, that has been problematic just like ABC 33.1. What is the other sub-channel you are referring to?


Looking at ABC 33.1 on the Roamio under "DVR Diagnostics", I see signal strength of 60 or 62%. That is the only variation that is present. Do you need me to provide any additional information?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mulliganman*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24625230
> 
> 
> The only sub-channel I am aware for ABC is 33.2 (CW). Yes, that has been problematic just like ABC 33.1. What is the other sub-channel you are referring to?
> 
> 
> Looking at ABC 33.1 on the Roamio under "DVR Diagnostics", I see signal strength of 60 or 62%. That is the only variation that is present. Do you need me to provide any additional information?



No other sub channels.


I'm still wondering if your antenna looks through a nearby tree to ABC?


----------



## mulliganman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24625305
> 
> 
> No other sub channels.
> 
> 
> I'm still wondering if your antenna looks through a nearby tree to ABC?



No nearby trees. I see a nearby tree in the distance but my home is a 2 story house in a subdivision. I believe the antenna to be located above any trees. There are relatively few in the subdivision.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mulliganman*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24625397
> 
> 
> No nearby trees. I see a nearby tree in the distance but my home is a 2 story house in a subdivision. I believe the antenna to be located above any trees. There are relatively few in the subdivision.




If all the other devices with tuners in them have no trouble with ABC then there's nothing left for me to conclude than you have an issue with the DVR+. I don't know what it is. You'll have to use the Roamio to record ABC.


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24623874
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16050#post_24622814
> 
> 
> Since the preamp I had was a 2 input and if I decide not to use it,  what do I need to combine signals from two antennas?  It will be the 91XG and some other VHF Low ANT.  (Still unsure why I shouldn't have gotten a HDB91X?)   Sounds like it would pick up everything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You should use the preamp.
> 
> 
> The HDB91X is essentially a 91XG clone. It is a UHF only antenna. It has no gain and no normal directionality on VHF. If you have enough signal you can receive stations with a paperclip in the TV antenna connector. That's how they make the claim of "25 miles on high band VHF" for that antenna. That means 25 miles for a full power station line-of-sight. You don't have those conditions.
> 
> 
> I don't understand why you're fighting this so. Several people have given you good advice.
> 
> 
> I'm sticking with my compromise advice; two input preamp, 91XG, Y-10713 pointed at ABC and you'll likely be able to receive PBS on RF 3 because it's the strongest station. My optimum advice is the Y526 for PBS and the Y-10713 summed together and connected to the preamp VHF input and the 91XG. That's what it takes at your location to have the best chance of reliable reception.
> 
> 
> 
> Antenna Block Diagram | UHF-VHF-FM Antennas | DIY High VHF Log Periodic Antenna | Article on Preamps, SNR/NM/Signal Strength, etc.
Click to expand...


I'm not fighting it. I've taken your advice and really do appreciate the help. Sorry if it came across that way. Granted, I was initially against two antennas but have warmed up to that idea.


The only reason I posed the question about not using the preamp was if it was causing me not to receive channel 10 due to overload or what not. When the preamp was working, channel 10 was coming and going. Once it stopped working and I disconnected it, I'm receiving channel 10 just fine. I do want to try the preamp again as soon as I can order another.



Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24629451
> 
> 
> The only reason I posed the question about not using the preamp was if it was causing me not to receive channel 10 due to overload or what not. When the preamp was working, channel 10 was coming and going. Once it stopped working and I disconnected it, I'm receiving channel 10 just fine. I do want to try the preamp again as soon as I can order another.




The preamp is not being overloaded. None of your stations are strong enough to do that. If you've had trouble with channel 10 (RF 30) it's some other problem and it's likely to return.


----------



## Finch85

Gotcha.


Do you think it's overkill to run #4 copper from the mast to the ground rod? I have a friend that lent me a roll for another project and told me to use whatever I needed. I bought some stranded #10 for the ground block.


Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## mulliganman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24625416
> 
> 
> If all the other devices with tuners in them have no trouble with ABC then there's nothing left for me to conclude than you have an issue with the DVR+. I don't know what it is. You'll have to use the Roamio to record ABC.



Thanks for all your help and suggestions. I thought I would report I have stabilized reception on ABC and it sub-channel on the DVR+. I ended up taking the combined output from both antennas and ran it to this: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=sky38323 (I had one laying around from my initial antennas setup)


Then from there to a Channel Master 3414 amp: http://www.channelmasterstore.com/Antenna_Cable_TV_Amplifier_p/cm-3414.htm 


From the Channel Master 3414 amp the signal is being sent to 3 TV's. The DVR+ connected TV is not having any issues and even shot my signal strength up to 84% on Fox and signal quality to mid 90%. The ABC channels sit comfortably at 100% on both signal quality and signal strength.


I double checked to make sure this adjustment wasn't negatively affected my Roamio connected TV and its not. I might have considered a preamplifier for the Antennas Direct C2V except the way I had the AC7 combiner made it only allows DC pass on the Antennas Direct 91XG (the Fox signal). I am surprised this has worked but am pleased it has.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mulliganman*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24631912
> 
> 
> From the Channel Master 3414 amp the signal is being sent to 3 TV's. The DVR+ connected TV is not having any issues and even shot my signal strength up to 84% on Fox and signal quality to mid 90%. The ABC channels sit comfortably at 100% on both signal quality and signal strength.



This makes no sense at all. That other amp has a far worse noise figure than the CM3414. It would appear you have a whole bunch of loss somewhere but you don't have the tools to troubleshoot it. Hopefully what you have will continue to work. Good luck!


----------



## mulliganman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24632282
> 
> 
> This makes no sense at all. That other amp has a far worse noise figure than the CM3414. It would appear you have a whole bunch of loss somewhere but you don't have the tools to troubleshoot it. Hopefully what you have will continue to work. Good luck!



Yeah, I agree. But, like I said I have good signals on non-connected TV (prior to and after adding that Skywalker amp). My Roamio puts my "signal strength" anywhere from the 50's to low 70's (again prior to and after adding that Skywalker amp).


Now everything on the DVR+ is 100% signal strength and signal quality except Fox (which is mid 80% on signal strength and mid 90% on signal quality) now after the changes. The two amps are no more than one foot or two away from each other. I did say the combined output cable has some copper exposed near the end of the silver caps. Could that be where the loss is occurring?


How would I go about testing it?


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mulliganman*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24632384
> 
> 
> I did say the combined output cable has some copper exposed near the end of the silver caps. Could that be where the loss is occurring?
> 
> 
> How would I go about testing it?


 

Hi,

 

A coax cable has a center conductor and a shield around the insulator. Then a plastic outer cover. The shield (copper) needs to touch the outside of the connector, having a little exposed is normal for the cables I built.

 

Those appear to have been replaced with store or antenna installer cables. He charged me for the connectors and used an excessive length of cable which there was no charge.

 

If you have a multi-meter you can check that the center conductor is not shorted to the shield and that the two ends (If possible) have the two center conductors connected with the shields also connected.

 



The short test is one that RadioShack failed to do when they built a cable.

 

Both ends were shorted, my radio got lots of traffic and the snack shop got none. I had a multi-meter and could test and found the lower end shorted. He cut the connecter off and I was able to prove that it was shorted.

 

Another test of the cable showed that the connector 50' up the tower was also shorted. Big antenna wasted until the cable was fixed.

 

Some copper exposed is good! If you are getting a signal then it is likely that your cable is fine.

 

SHF


----------



## mulliganman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *SFischer1*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24632575
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> 
> A coax cable has a center conductor and a shield around the insulator. Then a plastic outer cover. The shield (copper) needs to touch the outside of the connector, having a little exposed is normal for the cables I built.
> 
> 
> Those appear to have been replaced with store or antenna installer cables. He charged me for the connectors and used an excessive length of cable which there was no charge.
> 
> 
> If you have a multi-meter you can check that the center conductor is not shorted to the shield and that the two ends (If possible) have the two center conductors connected with the shields also connected.
> 
> 
> 
> The short test is one that RadioShack failed to do when they built a cable.
> 
> 
> Both ends were shorted, my radio got lots of traffic and the snack shop got none. I had a multi-meter and could test and found the lower end shorted. He cut the connecter off and I was able to prove that it was shorted.
> 
> 
> Another test of the cable showed that the connector 50' up the tower was also shorted. Big antenna wasted until the cable was fixed.
> 
> 
> Some copper exposed is good! If you are getting a signal then it is likely that your cable is fine.
> 
> 
> SHF



Thanks for replying. I have no idea what a multi-meter is...


What's your theory on why adding a second distribution amp all of sudden fixed my reception issues with the DVR+?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mulliganman*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24632384
> 
> 
> 
> How would I go about testing it?




At this point I don't think there's anything else I can do over a forum like this. Troubleshooting by proxy isn't working. You need someone experienced in troubleshooting things like this to go over there and start at step 1.


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mulliganman*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24632683
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for replying. I have no idea what a multi-meter is...
> 
> 
> What's your theory on why adding a second distribution amp all of sudden fixed my reception issues with the DVR+?
Click to expand...

Hi,

 

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/DISTRIBUTED-BY-MCM-72-7940-/72-7940

 

Shipping would be extra.

 



There are many other meters, the one I checked the shorted RadioShack cable was ~ $600 new ~ 1980 and was a high precision one.

 

Today ~ $40 would get an even better one.

 

As I think that your cable is fine with the exposed copper, it does not need to be checked.

 



I have not really been following your saga and do not wish to say anything contrary to one of the real experts.

 

Chuck just made a great statement, he or I could likely sort out the problem but we are perhaps 1000's of miles away.

 



Unless it stops working remember "If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

SHF


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24629849
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24629451
> 
> 
> The only reason I posed the question about not using the preamp was if it was causing me not to receive channel 10 due to overload or what not. When the preamp was working, channel 10 was coming and going. Once it stopped working and I disconnected it, I'm receiving channel 10 just fine. I do want to try the preamp again as soon as I can order another.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The preamp is not being overloaded. None of your stations are strong enough to do that. If you've had trouble with channel 10 (RF 30) it's some other problem and it's likely to return.
Click to expand...


I realize #4 bare copper would be overkill for grounding the antenna mast but I have quite a bit of it. Nothing wrong with going that big, right?


Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## L David Matheny

I've quoted below a post I made in another thread about the Aereo case currently in the courts. I ask the OTA antenna experts here: Is there any conceivable way that the Aereo system can work the way they claim it does, feeding one subscriber from each tiny antenna? If not, they surely have no valid legal argument.


> Quote:
> As I understand it (from what I've read), Aereo's pretext for doing what they're doing is that they use thousands of little antennas, one for each of their subscribers, to receive OTA content for use by those subscribers. What a load of crap! For that to make any sense legally, they would have to show that each little antenna supplies one subscriber and that if that one antenna is disconnected then the feed to that one subscriber is interrupted. Is there anybody out there who believes that that's actually what's happening? I'm sure Aereo must have a bunch of tiny little antenna-like objects somewhere for show-and-tell, but I'd bet that those individual little antennas don't actually have anything to do with the content fed to individual subscribers. If our Supreme Court buys such a laughably lame argument, it will be a sad day for the U.S.A. I hope and pray that the Court isn't that stupid.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24634723
> 
> 
> I realize #4 bare copper would be overkill for grounding the antenna mast but I have quite a bit of it. Nothing wrong with going that big, right?
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk




No problem. Use as large of a wire gauge as you like.


----------



## mulliganman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mulliganman*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24632384
> 
> 
> Yeah, I agree. But, like I said I have good signals on non-connected TV (prior to and after adding that Skywalker amp). My Roamio puts my "signal strength" anywhere from the 50's to low 70's (again prior to and after adding that Skywalker amp).
> 
> 
> Now everything on the DVR+ is 100% signal strength and signal quality except Fox (which is mid 80% on signal strength and mid 90% on signal quality) now after the changes. The two amps are no more than one foot or two away from each other. I did say the combined output cable has some copper exposed near the end of the silver caps. Could that be where the loss is occurring?
> 
> 
> How would I go about testing it?



It appears I spoke too soon. After I had finished watching a recording on the DVR+, it went back to the channel is was last on 33-2 (CW) but instead of the CW programming being on that channel programming for a channel I deleted was on there. It was very odd so I checked to see if all TV's were that way. Nope, just the one connected to the DVR+. At that time, 33-1 (ABC) was still stable. But, I decided to do a factory reboot to hopefully correct things. After the reboot, the fluctuations are back. Does this give any additional insight as to what may be going on?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *L David Matheny*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24635863
> 
> 
> I ask the OTA antenna experts here: Is there any conceivable way that the Aereo system can work the way they claim it does, feeding one subscriber from each tiny antenna? If not, they surely have no valid legal argument.



I should point out that there is a Official Aereo Thread which makes this OT here.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1467819/official-aereo-discussion-thread 



I browsed that thread and it's mostly legal discussions and very little technical. There are a few posts starting here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1467819/official-aereo-discussion-thread/300#post_23978854 


that address your question.



I'd like to find out exactly what they're doing. In a YouTube video Aereo claims that users rent one tiny antenna and that it is tuned for just one channel. In the pictures I saw of their antenna panels I didn't see any evidence that there's a tuner for each tiny antenna and an ATSC demodulator for each antenna. Even if you tuned each tiny antenna you'd have to be very close to the transmitter site to receive enough signal to be useable. Until I see some independent verification that one of those tiny antennas is driving a tuner and being sent over the internet to one user count me as skeptical.


There's another thing that makes me even more skeptical. Any indoor antenna is going to be subject to reception issues such as weak signals with multipath issues. Their tiny antenna panels seem to be mounted indoors in racks. I don't see how you're going to get reliable reception with such a poorly located antenna.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mulliganman*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24636733
> 
> 
> It appears I spoke too soon. After I had finished watching a recording on the DVR+, it went back to the channel is was last on 33-2 (CW) but instead of the CW programming being on that channel programming for a channel I deleted was on there. It was very odd so I checked to see if all TV's were that way. Nope, just the one connected to the DVR+. At that time, 33-1 (ABC) was still stable. But, I decided to do a factory reboot to hopefully correct things. After the reboot, the fluctuations are back. Does this give any additional insight as to what may be going on?



Something weird is going on here. You don't have channel 33, either virtual or RF. Your ABC is VC 13-1/RF 13. Your CW is VC 21-1/RF 20.


Check out Rabbitears:

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php 


Roanoke is market 68. Click on links to expand.


Where is channel 33 coming from? Just a thought but are you sure you're connected to the antenna and not to cable and tuning unencrypted cable channels?


----------



## mulliganman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24636956
> 
> 
> Something weird is going on here. You don't have channel 33, either virtual or RF. Your ABC is VC 13-1/RF 13. Your CW is VC 21-1/RF 20.
> 
> 
> Check out Rabbitears:
> 
> http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php
> 
> 
> Roanoke is market 68. Click on links to expand.
> 
> 
> Where is channel 33 coming from? Just a thought but are you sure you're connected to the antenna and not to cable and tuning unencrypted cable channels?



I'm in the Springfield, Missouri market (number 84 on the rabbitears link). The tower for KSPR is in Fordland, Missouri along with all my other locals except Fox. How would I know if I was tuning unencrypted cable channels? When I first switched over to OTA reception and we were setting up, we used existing lines that were already in place I thought.


By the way, it was one of the KRFT (normaly 8. something ) channels that I was seeing on Channel 33-2 (CW).


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mulliganman*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24637013
> 
> 
> I'm in the Springfield, Missouri market (number 84 on the rabbitears link).



Sorry about that! I can't keep my people straight here.


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24636529
> 
> 
> 
> No problem. Use as large of a wire gauge as you like.


Done!    

 

Still trying to figure out my preamp situation.  I still can't get it to work and now I'm wondering if I damaged the antenna's balun.  Back when I was first hooking everything up,  I took the mast mounted preamp out of the picture but forgot and left the power injector plugged in on the tv.  Would this have damaged the balun?  I can get 20 channels with just the antenna but once I hook up the preamp,  I only get a couple channels.  All the switches are set the same on the preamp when I first had it working and getting those 30 channels.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24638075
> 
> 
> Done!
> 
> 
> Still trying to figure out my preamp situation.  I still can't get it to work and now I'm wondering if I damaged the antenna's balun.  Back when I was first hooking everything up,  I took the mast mounted preamp out of the picture but forgot and left the power injector plugged in on the tv.  Would this have damaged the balun?  I can get 20 channels with just the antenna but once I hook up the preamp,  I only get a couple channels.  All the switches are set the same on the preamp when I first had it working and getting those 30 channels.




This is the 91XG right? The new 91XGs have a circuit board balun so it would be hard to burn it up. If you receive 20 channels with no preamp and less with a preamp it sounds like the preamp is bad. You can remove the driven element (the one held on with a thumb screw) and open it up and inspect the circuit board.


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24638145
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24638075
> 
> 
> Done!
> 
> 
> Still trying to figure out my preamp situation.  I still can't get it to work and now I'm wondering if I damaged the antenna's balun.  Back when I was first hooking everything up,  I took the mast mounted preamp out of the picture but forgot and left the power injector plugged in on the tv.  Would this have damaged the balun?  I can get 20 channels with just the antenna but once I hook up the preamp,  I only get a couple channels.  All the switches are set the same on the preamp when I first had it working and getting those 30 channels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the 91XG right? The new 91XGs have a circuit board balun so it would be hard to burn it up. If you receive 20 channels with no preamp and less with a preamp it sounds like the preamp is bad. You can remove the driven element (the one held on with a thumb screw) and open it up and inspect the circuit board.
Click to expand...


Yep, 91XG. I was just making sure. Makes sense to me that it would be the preamp. I'll order another and try it out. Thanks again!


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----------



## mulliganman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24637045
> 
> 
> Sorry about that! I can't keep my people straight here.



I understand. Would a multimeter like SFischer1 shared help?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *mulliganman*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24638409
> 
> 
> I understand. Would a multimeter like SFischer1 shared help?



Why don't you try the Springfield/Joplin, MO HDTV local thread and ask if there's someone close-by that could help you?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/272222/springfield-joplin-mo-hdtv


----------



## Finch85

Most channels are going in and out now. I ran one run of coax (store bought-F connectors made up from factory) to my tv bypassing the grounding block, two way splitter, and the wall connection. Still going in and out. Think this is from the absence of a preamp. The replacement preamp should be here Friday.


The error box did jump to 254 one time.











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----------



## retiredengineer




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24639074
> 
> 
> Most channels are going in and out now. I ran one run of coax (store bought-F connectors made up from factory) to my tv bypassing the grounding block, two way splitter, and the wall connection. Still going in and out. Think this is from the absence of a preamp. The replacement preamp should be here Friday.
> 
> 
> The error box did jump to 254 one time.



Your problem sounds exactly like what I experienced. My location is behind hills and TVFool says I have one or two edge reception. So I figured I needed a large antenna. So I installed a CM4228, an 8 bay UHF antenna. Some channels came in fine but others didn't. Couldn't find the sweet spot.


After reading:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/siting.html 


about siting and 'Skyline Multipath', I installed a CM4221, a 4 bay UHF antenna. I became a Happy Camper, all the UHF stations I wanted to watch comes in fine. BTW my VHF antenna is a Y5713 which also works fine. I combined the two antennas with a preamplifier.


Your situation is different from mine and YMMV. But consider trying a smaller antenna if the big ones don't work.


----------



## mulliganman




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24638504
> 
> 
> Why don't you try the Springfield/Joplin, MO HDTV local thread and ask if there's someone close-by that could help you?
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/t/272222/springfield-joplin-mo-hdtv



I'll try but that forum looks like a ghost town.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24639074
> 
> 
> Most channels are going in and out now. I ran one run of coax (store bought-F connectors made up from factory) to my tv bypassing the grounding block, two way splitter, and the wall connection. Still going in and out. Think this is from the absence of a preamp. The replacement preamp should be here Friday.
> 
> 
> The error box did jump to 254 one time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk




I've had 2 Sony TVs so I'm very familiar with that Diagnostic screen.


AGC (Automatic Gain Control) is a real signal strength meter except it reads in reverse, the lower the number the stronger the signal. AGC lowers or raises the gain depending on the signal strength. 43% is a good signal, plenty of signal to get an SNR >30 dB yet you only have 19 dB and 5 errors. That is not right. Errors should be 0 at SNR 19 dB. The only time I've ever seen that is when there was on-channel interference, either from power line noise (very unlikely on UHF), a co-channel analog station (not in your case), or some other RF interference (difficult to track down).


You can have a low SNR due to multipath with a strong signal but the errors should be 0. Sorry, but I've forgotten exactly what your setup is. No preamp right now and a distribution amp? Is that right?


I can give you some guidance on the AGC. Without a preamp or a distribution amp, the weakest signal you can decode is around AGC 80%. (You will see higher numbers but those signals are too weak to decode. Any kind of amplifier will lower that number. In my system the weakest signal that can be decoded is close to AGC 70%. You should be able to decode signals in the 60% range. I've noticed some peculiar behavior in the TV if there is a very strong station anywhere in the band, something that will drive the AGC to


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16110#post_24640976
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16080#post_24639074
> 
> 
> Most channels are going in and out now. I ran one run of coax (store bought-F connectors made up from factory) to my tv bypassing the grounding block, two way splitter, and the wall connection. Still going in and out. Think this is from the absence of a preamp. The replacement preamp should be here Friday.
> 
> 
> The error box did jump to 254 one time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've had 2 Sony TVs so I'm very familiar with that Diagnostic screen.
> 
> 
> AGC (Automatic Gain Control) is a real signal strength meter except it reads in reverse, the lower the number the stronger the signal. AGC lowers or raises the gain depending on the signal strength. 43% is a good signal, plenty of signal to get an SNR >30 dB yet you only have 19 dB and 5 errors. That is not right. Errors should be 0 at SNR 19 dB. The only time I've ever seen that is when there was on-channel interference, either from power line noise (very unlikely on UHF), a co-channel analog station (not in your case), or some other RF interference (difficult to track down).
> 
> 
> You can have a low SNR due to multipath with a strong signal but the errors should be 0. Sorry, but I've forgotten exactly what your setup is. No preamp right now and a distribution amp? Is that right?
> 
> 
> I can give you some guidance on the AGC. Without a preamp or a distribution amp, the weakest signal you can decode is around AGC 80%. (You will see higher numbers but those signals are too weak to decode. Any kind of amplifier will lower that number. In my system the weakest signal that can be decoded is close to AGC 70%. You should be able to decode signals in the 60% range. I've noticed some peculiar behavior in the TV if there is a very strong station anywhere in the band, something that will drive the AGC to
Click to expand...


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16110#post_24641989
> 
> 
> Thanks for the response. Currently my setup is the 91XG and that's it. The RCA preamp you suggested went haywire and the new one will be here tomorrow.
> 
> 
> It seems like I read in the antenna's instructions that a section of the antenna could be removed if the signal was too strong. Thoughts?




With no preamp or distribution amp an AGC of 43% on your Sony shows a solid signal but not overly strong. You should not be having errors. I know it would be a big hassle but you could try moving the antenna to a different location to see if that makes any difference.


You can lower the gain on the 91XG by around 2 dB by removing the front section. I'd be amazed if that fixes your problem.


I read what Retired Engineer said about using a lower gain antenna and the DTV Primer page section on Sky-line Multi-path. The DTV Primer page doesn't recommend a lower gain antenna and in fact says it might be detrimental. I don't know what is going on in his situation.


I have a situation here that is similar to that described on the HDTV Primer page with a 2 edge path. I've tried different antennas on two towers 95' apart. Lower gain antennas have never outperformed higher gain antennas although sometimes there is no difference in SNR.


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16110#post_24642258
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16110#post_24641989
> 
> 
> Thanks for the response. Currently my setup is the 91XG and that's it. The RCA preamp you suggested went haywire and the new one will be here tomorrow.
> 
> 
> It seems like I read in the antenna's instructions that a section of the antenna could be removed if the signal was too strong. Thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With no preamp or distribution amp an AGC of 43% on your Sony shows a solid signal but not overly strong. You should not be having errors. I know it would be a big hassle but you could try moving the antenna to a different location to see if that makes any difference.
> 
> 
> You can lower the gain on the 91XG by around 2 dB by removing the front section. I'd be amazed if that fixes your problem.
> 
> 
> I read what Retired Engineer said about using a lower gain antenna and the DTV Primer page section on Sky-line Multi-path. The DTV Primer page doesn't recommend a lower gain antenna and in fact says it might be detrimental. I don't know what is going on in his situation.
> 
> 
> I have a situation here that is similar to that described on the HDTV Primer page with a 2 edge path. I've tried different antennas on two towers 95' apart. Lower gain antennas have never outperformed higher gain antennas although sometimes there is no difference in SNR.
Click to expand...


I really don't want to move it as the current mounting location is solid. The antenna is pointing toward the 3 phase power lines which are about 25-30 yards away. What would you say if my signal seems to be better at night?












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## Pete-N2

More likely that the wind calmed down later in the day... Do I assume that you are currently able to receive 7,13,21,27,38 with a decedent SNR and no decode errors?


----------



## Finch85

My replacement preamp came and I just hooked it up. Said I received 28 channels but I don't get all of them. It's definitely recognizing more channels than no preamp and it's also confirmed that my other preamp was defective.


I'm getting everything I should but I just noticed that on Channel 10 it was a momentary blip in the audio. I had the diagnosis screen up and saw the errors jumped up to 133 but just for a split second. It hasn't done it since. The signal strength meter is constantly mooching. Just had another blip, 64 errors. Just did it again a few times, 254 errors. Now 129. It's tolerable and not as bad as before but it is annoying. AGC is 29% which would be pretty good per Calveras.


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## Finch85

Moving not mooching


Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16110#post_24643874
> 
> 
> My replacement preamp came and I just hooked it up. Said I received 28 channels but I don't get all of them. It's definitely recognizing more channels than no preamp and it's also confirmed that my other preamp was defective.
> 
> 
> I'm getting everything I should but I just noticed that on Channel 10 it was a momentary blip in the audio. I had the diagnosis screen up and saw the errors jumped up to 133 but just for a split second. It hasn't done it since. The signal strength meter is constantly mooching. Just had another blip, 64 errors. Just did it again a few times, 254 errors. Now 129. It's tolerable and not as bad as before but it is annoying. AGC is 29% which would be pretty good per Calveras.




Sounds to me like you have dynamic multipath because the antenna is looking through a tree. I think you said it's not looking though a tree but it sure acts like it. The only way to fix this is to move the antenna. In this case less problem at night might correspond to less wind. AGC 29% is a huge signal, something like 40 dB noise margin here. The preamp seems to get you a few weak stations but it's not going to fix WSLS which is plenty strong with no preamp. It's unlikely the power lines are causing a problem on UHF but even if they are then moving the antenna is still something to try.


How about a temporary move? Just sit it on top of the roof in some other location and see what WSLS looks like.


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pete-N2*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16110#post_24643142
> 
> 
> More likely that the wind calmed down later in the day... Do I assume that you are currently able to receive 7,13,21,27,38 with a decedent SNR and no decode errors?


 

Everything looks good until it drops out and that's when I get the errors.  It's been dropping in and out a lot here lately. The SNR and AGC both drop to 0, errors jump from 0 to some high number, status goes from Lock to unlock and the signal strength also drops from mid 80s to the 40s.  Currently watching CBS when it's doing this.


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16110#post_24644919
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds to me like you have dynamic multipath because the antenna is looking through a tree. I think you said it's not looking though a tree but it sure acts like it. The only way to fix this is to move the antenna. In this case less problem at night might correspond to less wind. AGC 29% is a huge signal, something like 40 dB noise margin here. The preamp seems to get you a few weak stations but it's not going to fix WSLS which is plenty strong with no preamp. It's unlikely the power lines are causing a problem on UHF but even if they are then moving the antenna is still something to try.
> 
> 
> How about a temporary move? Just sit it on top of the roof in some other location and see what WSLS looks like.


 
I didn't have this problem last week when I first installed it.  Yes, WSLS (channel 10) was coming and going badly but now it's fine and CBS is doing it but the screen isn't going black like channel 10 was last week.  Last week when channel 10 was doing this, I did move it to the 2nd story and rested it on top of the chimney and it didn't fix channel 10s issue but I can try that again.  
Even if I get it above the tree, it's still looking directly at a mountain.  Does that not matter?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16110#post_24644958
> 
> 
> I didn't have this problem last week when I first installed it.  Yes, WSLS (channel 10) was coming and going badly but now it's fine and CBS is doing it but the screen isn't going black like channel 10 was last week.  Last week when channel 10 was doing this, I did move it to the 2nd story and rested it on top of the chimney and it didn't fix channel 10s issue but I can try that again.
> 
> 
> Even if I get it above the tree, it's still looking directly at a mountain.  Does that not matter?




So there's no place that you can mount the antenna that doesn't look through trees? As the trees grow and leaf out the situation is going to change. You need to do whatever it takes to make sure the antenna is not looking through trees.


You can have multipath from the irregular ridge of a mountain but it will be stable multipath. The farther from the ridge you are the less multipath it generates generally. Mountains attenuate the signals but that doesn't seem to be much of a problem based on your AGC readings.


----------



## Finch85

Ok, since my two way splitter is on the garage roof between the preamp and tv, I had unhooked from the two way splitter since I don't have any voltage blocks. So, antenna to preamp and preamp to tv1. This way I was getting the dropping out of channel 7. Since its now bedtime, I wanted the bedroom tv (tv2) working. So I unhooked the preamp and wired from ANT to two way splitter and then to both tvs. Not experiencing the dropouts now.


Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16110#post_24645202
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16110#post_24644958
> 
> 
> I didn't have this problem last week when I first installed it.  Yes, WSLS (channel 10) was coming and going badly but now it's fine and CBS is doing it but the screen isn't going black like channel 10 was last week.  Last week when channel 10 was doing this, I did move it to the 2nd story and rested it on top of the chimney and it didn't fix channel 10s issue but I can try that again.
> 
> 
> Even if I get it above the tree, it's still looking directly at a mountain.  Does that not matter?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So there's no place that you can mount the antenna that doesn't look through trees? As the trees grow and leaf out the situation is going to change. You need to do whatever it takes to make sure the antenna is not looking through trees.
> 
> 
> You can have multipath from the irregular ridge of a mountain but it will be stable multipath. The farther from the ridge you are the less multipath it generates generally. Mountains attenuate the signals but that doesn't seem to be much of a problem based on your AGC readings.
Click to expand...


Pretty much going to be looking thru trees. See the post I must made also for new development. I kinda wander if this antenna is too powerful?


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## Calaveras

Just a coincidence. It's not a change in wiring. Maybe the wind died down.


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16110#post_24645220
> 
> 
> Just a coincidence. It's not a change in wiring. Maybe the wind died down.



You're not suspicious of the preamp?


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----------



## Calaveras

No. Your AGC went from 43% to 29%. Looks like the preamp is working fine.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16110#post_24645211
> 
> 
> Pretty much going to be looking thru trees. See the post I must made also for new development. I kinda wander if this antenna is too powerful?




Then you'll just have to put up with flaky reception on some channels.


In the OTA game if you look hard enough you'll find exceptions to almost every rule. Somebody got something to work that shouldn't have. Does it really make any sense that a lower gain antenna would receive more stations? Just because one person did doesn't mean anyone else will. It simply means there's something going on in that situation that we don't understand. The rules of antennas and reception have not been broken.


If you want to try, remove the front section of your antenna.


To verify the moving tree theory, check your reception on the problem station(s) when it is dead calm. You should see little or no bouncing around of the SNR. No reception would also be verification.


----------



## Finch85

It's dead calm right now and it's still doing it. The SNR is 25 and AGC is 37 and goes to 0 when it drops out. Currently do not have the preamp installed.


Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16110#post_24646734
> 
> 
> 
> Then you'll just have to put up with flaky reception on some channels.
> 
> 
> In the OTA game if you look hard enough you'll find exceptions to almost every rule. Somebody got something to work that shouldn't have. Does it really make any sense that a lower gain antenna would receive more stations? Just because one person did doesn't mean anyone else will. It simply means there's something going on in that situation that we don't understand. The rules of antennas and reception have not been broken.
> 
> 
> If you want to try, remove the front section of your antenna.
> 
> 
> To verify the moving tree theory, check your reception on the problem station(s) when it is dead calm. You should see little or no bouncing around of the SNR. No reception would also be verification.


 

See my above post as well.  

 

Just had a thought and feel silly for not asking sooner.  Should I point the antenna above the mountain instead of directly at it?  Also,  I just moved the antenna away from the ideal direction where my transmitters are and haven't had any dropouts.  Keeping my fingers crossed.  Going to reinstall the preamp and try this location for the day.  

 

Another question.  If I order the Y5713, it will be fine to attach it to the same mast as my 91xg, right?


----------



## Pete-N2

What are the readings for:

Poor Mtn

7.1

15.1 (VHF-lo)

27.1

38.1

Thaxton Mtn

13.1 (VHF-hi)

21.1


Any decode errors?


You can try turning your antenna to different headings (10-20 degree increments) and also lowering it. You might find a "sweet spot". After that the only options left are different locations and/or cutting down trees. And the worst is there are no guarantees any of these steps will help.


I saw the condition you described once and it was on channel 10. All of sudden one day 10 went from my strongest channel to unusable during the day. I called the station engineer.


"Have you changed anything lately?"

"No -- we haven't made any changes in the last two years! Try turning your antena"


Over the next two weeks the condition slowly improved and 10 went back to where it was --- Go figure


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pete-N2*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16110#post_24646954
> 
> 
> What are the readings for:
> 
> Poor Mtn
> 
> 7.1
> 
> 15.1 (VHF-lo)
> 
> 27.1
> 
> 38.1
> 
> Thaxton Mtn
> 
> 13.1 (VHF-hi)
> 
> 21.1
> 
> 
> Any decode errors?
> 
> 
> You can try turning your antenna to different headings (10-20 degree increments) and also lowering it. You might find a "sweet spot". After that the only options left are different locations and/or cutting down trees. And the worst is there are no guarantees any of these steps will help.
> 
> 
> I saw the condition you described once and it was on channel 10. All of sudden one day 10 went from my strongest channel to unusable during the day. I called the station engineer.
> 
> 
> "Have you changed anything lately?"
> 
> "No -- we haven't made any changes in the last two years! Try turning your antena"
> 
> 
> Over the next two weeks the condition slowly improved and 10 went back to where it was --- Go figure


 

What readings would you like for each of those channels?  Like I said a few mins ago,  I did move the antenna and now everything is fine.  Reinstalled the preamp and I'm not having any issues (right now) with  CBS, NBC, FOX, ABC.  Right now I'm watching CBS to see if it drops out any.  So far, it has not.

 

CBS 7.1 (phy. channel 18)

My Sony Bravia Diagnostic screen

Signal Strength:  87

Freq. 487000

Modulation: 8VSB

Status: Lock

Errors: 0 (BTW, this always showed 0 until the channel actually drops out)

SNR: 26

AGC: 30


----------



## Pete-N2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16110#post_24647068
> 
> 
> What readings would you like for each of those channels?  Like I said a few mins ago,  I did move the antenna and now everything is fine.



SNR and AGC.


So then you are receiving all the channels you want (including 13/13) with the exception of 15/3. Good news. It will be interesting to see what happens when the winds pickup.


For reference I average about 1 decode error every four to eight hours of viewing, (Usually the sound breaks up.) Slight more on windy days. 15/3 averages 3 or 4 an hour.


----------



## tylerSC

Are the printed circuit board baluns used in some antennas subject to shorting out due to overheating or power surges? I have a 43XG antenna in the attic that has basically stopped working, as most channels now have significantly lower signal strength. And one channel is not decoding at all. It is not the preamp or the cable, as I connected them to another antenna which still works fine. This is the first week it has gotten really hot in the attic, so I was wondering if the heat could affect the PCB baluns. Or possible power surges which do periodically happen.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16110#post_24646947
> 
> 
> See my above post as well.
> 
> 
> Just had a thought and feel silly for not asking sooner.  Should I point the antenna above the mountain instead of directly at it?



Normally I would say no because the vertical beamwidth is so so wide that it won't make any difference. I did a little research for your location and I see you're about 1.1 miles from a hilltop nearly 1000' higher than you are. Your angle to the hilltop is almost 10 degrees. That's still probably not enough to make any difference but it's more than typical. I'd try it once to see what happens.




> Quote:
> Also,  I just moved the antenna away from the ideal direction where my transmitters are and haven't had any dropouts.  Keeping my fingers crossed.  Going to reinstall the preamp and try this location for the day.



So you were having dropouts and moved the antenna and all the dropouts disappeared. IOW you ran this test with only a few minutes in between?




> Quote:
> Another question.  If I order the Y5713, it will be fine to attach it to the same mast as my 91xg, right?



Yes, at least 3' of separation to be safe.


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16110#post_24646811
> 
> 
> It's dead calm right now and it's still doing it. The SNR is 25 and AGC is 37 and goes to 0 when it drops out. Currently do not have the preamp installed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


I understand Signal/Noise Ratio but what is AGC?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16110#post_24647212
> 
> 
> Are the printed circuit board baluns used in some antennas subject to shorting out due to overheating or power surges? I have a 43XG antenna in the attic that has basically stopped working, as most channels now have significantly lower signal strength. And one channel is not decoding at all. It is not the preamp or the cable, as I connected them to another antenna which still works fine. This is the first week it has gotten really hot in the attic, so I was wondering if the heat could affect the PCB baluns. Or possible power surges which do periodically happen.



Here's a picture of the PC balun. Short of a direct lightning strike I can't imagine how it could burn up. Power line surges can not reach the balun.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16110#post_24647238
> 
> 
> I understand Signal/Noise Ratio but what is AGC?



See the picture of the Sony Diagnostic screen and my explanation of AGC in post 16113.


----------



## tylerSC

Well I was having very good reception with the 43XG antenna. But now suddenly, signal strength is much lower on all channels, and one has stopped decoding. I switched the cable and the preamp back to the old Channel Master antenna, and all is good again. Not sure what has happened with the 43XG. I may try connecting the preamp to the antenna with a 6ft. cable rather than the 1 foot, in case possibly weather conditions have made certain channels stronger now and causing overload. That's all I can figure, unless something has mysteriously malfunctioned with the PCB balun.


----------



## tylerSC

And I should also say I have been using a Kitztech 100 preamp which has no filtering. Maybe there is some new type of interference from FM radio or a 4G/LTE cellphone tower. I may try adding an FM trap and see if that helps.


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pete-N2*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16110#post_24647191
> 
> 
> 
> SNR and AGC.
> 
> 
> So then you are receiving all the channels you want (including 13/13) with the exception of 15/3. Good news. It will be interesting to see what happens when the winds pickup.
> 
> 
> For reference I average about 1 decode error every four to eight hours of viewing, (Usually the sound breaks up.) Slight more on windy days. 15/3 averages 3 or 4 an hour.


 

I'm receiving everything including ABC and PBS but the dreaded dropout or "blips" in audio/video returned.  It seems to have gotten better and doesn't happen all day long.  I noticed it last night and a couple times this morning.  I'll move the antenna again...not gonna give up on it yet.  Or am I being too picky?  Is it unrealistic for me to want to achieve the same experience as satellite (minus storms when it would go out)?

 

Edit:  And as it stands right now,  I won't need another antenna in conjunction with the 91XG if PBS and ABC continue to come through.


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16110#post_24647217
> 
> 
> So you were having dropouts and moved the antenna and all the dropouts disappeared. IOW you ran this test with only a few minutes in between?


 

No, it was longer, maybe an hour.  BUT in my limited experience, I've learned I should move it and leave it in that position for the day since these blips or dropouts sometimes only occur at certain times of the day.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16110#post_24649345
> 
> 
> Well I was having very good reception with the 43XG antenna. But now suddenly, signal strength is much lower on all channels, and one has stopped decoding. I switched the cable and the preamp back to the old Channel Master antenna, and all is good again. Not sure what has happened with the 43XG. I may try connecting the preamp to the antenna with a 6ft. cable rather than the 1 foot, in case possibly weather conditions have made certain channels stronger now and causing overload. That's all I can figure, unless something has mysteriously malfunctioned with the PCB balun.



Why don't you remove the driven element from the 43XG and take it apart and inspect the balun? It's possible there could be a cold solder joint on the connector center pin. It's also possible that spiders got into the plastic housing and partially shorted out the element. I had a Winegard preamp that stopped working because Acorn Woodpeckers stuffed the preamp with acorns.







I had to cover the switch openings with black tape.


----------



## holl_ands

*Vertically Stacked FF4 Free-Form 4-Bay Bowtie Antennas:*


Uploaded 4nec2 Results for two Vertically Stacked FF4's with Stacking Distance Optimized for both best Raw Gain and also MULTIPATH RESISTANCE:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/stacked/verticallystackeduhf/vertstackff4doubleanglerefl 


Many times Multipath results in signal strength varying with height in alternating Peaks and Nulls. Zss = Vertical Stacking Separation between Antennas (Feedpoint-to-Feedpoint) was chosen so that when Nulls form across the Bowties on one Antenna, hopefully Peaks will form across the Bowties on the other.


Two versions were Optimized, the second, preferred version used a Vertical Harness between two FF4's, where distance between Harness conductors and Total Length was searched to find "best" values:

Dimensions: VHw (FL Width)=1.0-in, VHp=3.25-in (Diagonally = 3.375-in), Feedlines=29.5-in,

Zss=60-in so Zmm=12-in (Reflector Metal-Metal).


UHF Raw Gain = 17.1 to 19.7 dBi, F/B & F/R Ratio Min = 14.3 dB and SWR (300-ohms) under 2.5.

Hi-VHF Raw Gain = 14.2 to 11.0 dBi, F/B & F/R Ratio Min = 10.0 dB although SWR (300-ohms)

= 73 to 19 is EXCESSIVE.


A version was also analyzed, feeding the two FF4's via a pair of 450-ohm Transmission Lines ("Windowed" or "Open Ladder") from a common Balun connection point. Although the calculated Raw Gain was 0.4 to 0.2 dB higher, this did not include minor degradation due to the Transmission Lines close proximity to the Antenna, which would reduce this difference. Hence Vertical Harness version (which automatically includes Harness proximity) is probably preferred, since the Harness doesn't require any special mechanical supports and would not be degraded by rain, such as is a problem with "Windowed" 450-ohm Twinlead.

*3D View of V-Stack FF4 with Vertical Harness:*
 

*Raw Gain of V-Stack FF4 with Vertical Harness:*
 

*SWR (300-ohms) of V-Stack FF4 with Vertical Harness:*


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16140#post_24650694
> 
> 
> Why don't you remove the driven element from the 43XG and take it apart and inspect the balun? It's possible there could be a cold solder joint on the connector center pin. It's also possible that spiders got into the plastic housing and partially shorted out the element. I had a Winegard preamp that stopped working because Acorn Woodpeckers stuffed the preamp with acorns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had to cover the switch openings with black tape.


I am thinking now the problem may be overload as I am now getting a very strong signal from a local RF7 channel that may have increased power or corrected a technical issue. Previously the VHF signal was 70-74% with the 43XG UHF antenna. Now it is a constant 100%. With the preamp and several other strong local channels, I think it may be an overload issue causing the interference on some of the weaker channels.


----------



## tylerSC

I may add a UVSJ to the 43XG antenna before the preamp. To serve as a FM filter and to block out the strong VHF-7 channel. Then see if the weaker UHF channel comes back in.


----------



## Finch85

I'm going to order a voltage block soon but want to make sure I only need to order one. Here's my setup.


The antenna is mounted on my attached garage roof. The preamp is mounted to the antenna. The coax from the ANT goes to the preamp input. From the preamp output, the coax goes to a two way splitter (attached to the exterior side of the house) which leads to TVs 1 & 2. The coax leading to TV 1 will be connected to the power injector and then to the actual TV. I only need a voltage block connected to the tv2 output of the two way splitter, right?


I guess I'm confused how tv 2 will benefit from the preamp with the voltage block?


Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## rabbit73

The voltage block will keep the DC power from reaching TV 2, but allow the RF signals to pass through. It uses a series capacitor to perform that function. Your splitter must be the type that passes DC through to the preamp, not an ordinary splitter.

http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/voltage-block.html


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rabbit73*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16140#post_24654158
> 
> 
> The voltage block will keep the DC power from reaching TV 2, but allow the RF signals to pass through. It uses a series capacitor to perform that function. Your splitter must be the type that passes DC through to the preamp, not an ordinary splitter.
> 
> http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/voltage-block.html



I'm glad you mentioned that about the splitter. Any idea if this one would allow DC through?











Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## jspENC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16100_50#post_24654255
> 
> 
> I'm glad you mentioned that about the splitter. Any idea if this one would allow DC through?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk



That splitter will NOT pass DC. Do not put it between your mast mounted preamp and your power supply or you will ruin the preamp in short order!


You need a PWR PASSING splitter. One leg only. Most of what you find in stores are now passive on BOTH ports. Search online for power passive splitters, and buy one with only one port passing for the cable that houses your indoor power supply or it will also slowly cook the preamp.


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jspENC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16140#post_24654290
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16100_50#post_24654255
> 
> 
> I'm glad you mentioned that about the splitter. Any idea if this one would allow DC through?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That splitter will NOT pass DC. Do not put it between your mast mounted preamp and your power supply or you will ruin the preamp in short order!
> 
> 
> You need a PWR PASSING splitter. One leg only. Most of what you find in stores are now passive on BOTH ports. Search online for power passive splitters, and buy one with only one port passing for the cable that houses your indoor power supply or it will also slowly cook the preamp.
Click to expand...


Thanks, I guess that's why my first preamp stopped working. I have another one now but I have not been connecting it via the splitter. It's wired the way you see pictured just so we can watch TV in the bedroom.

So just to make sure I understand, I need a two way splitter with one of the outputs capable of passing dc current which would be the one that feeds to my indoor power supply? I then need a voltage block on the other output port of the splitter that will feed tv 2. Is that all correct?


Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Is that all correct?



No.


If you put a non-power passing splitter between the amp and its power inserter, you deprive the amp of its power and turn it into the equivalent of a brick until such a time as you fix the error and get operating power to the amp.


Many of the splitters in stores that are rated for both cable and satellite TV service are labeled as DC pass on all ports. These splitters include a diode on each port so that amp power may be supplied from any output port and is appropriately routed ONLY to the single input port which is where the amplifier should be connected. This feature allows the power inserter to be attached to ANY of the output ports and it will supply the amp but will NOT allow power to pass to any other of the outputs.


The Regal splitter pictured specifies that it is DC blocking, so it cannot go between the amp and its inserter.


----------



## jspENC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16150_50#post_24654452
> 
> 
> Thanks, I guess that's why my first preamp stopped working. I have another one now but I have not been connecting it via the splitter. It's wired the way you see pictured just so we can watch TV in the bedroom.
> 
> So just to make sure I understand, I need a two way splitter with one of the outputs capable of passing dc current which would be the one that feeds to my indoor power supply? I then need a voltage block on the other output port of the splitter that will feed tv 2. Is that all correct?
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk



This image below is an example of what you need. The room with the amp power supply gets the cable hooked to the power passive side. You need no extra DC block with this particular splitter. Only if you have a dual power passive on all ports would you need the DC blocker

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRT3COrWVpWfp0B86Ays-it7N2gcMAISMFKBi6dm4V4YKqAn_VCgw


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jspENC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16140#post_24654568
> 
> 
> 
> This image below is an example of what you need. The room with the amp power supply gets the cable hooked to the power passive side. You need no extra DC block with this particular splitter. Only if you have a dual power passive on all ports would you need the DC blocker
> 
> https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRT3COrWVpWfp0B86Ays-it7N2gcMAISMFKBi6dm4V4YKqAn_VCgw


Thanks guys!  I appreciate the info.  jspENC,  I just ordered that exact one.  Thanks again.


----------



## SFischer1


Hi,

 

Is the top cable connector cross threaded, it looks like a slight angle.

 

I have been wondering about that for two problems currently unanswered.

 

Only one of the three connectors  looks good to me. Darn F connectors, I have been having so many problems with them lately.

 

SHF


----------



## rabbit73




> Quote:
> Darn F connectors, I have been having so many problems with them lately.


They can be a problem. The way I check the female connector is to insert a short length of no. 18 solid wire, which is the same as the center conductor of RG6 coax, to see how it fits. Sometimes it will not even go in; other times the female connector doesn't grab the wire securely. The center conductor of the male RG6 connector should protrude about 1/8 inch so that it starts into the female connector before the threads engage.


----------



## holl_ands

*STACKED 4-BAYS & 91XG COMPARED TO TWO PARABOLICS & A KISS QUASI-PARABOLIC*


Uploaded Comparison Charts for Stacked FF4's, M4's & CM4221's vs CM4251 (2-Bay Reflector + 7-ft Diameter Dish), GHZ24's Parabolic (7-El LPDA + 1-m Diameter Dish) & GHZ24's KISS Quasi-Parabolic (7-El LPDA + 4ea 1x1-m Square Reflectors):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/stacked/verticallystackeduhf/uhfstackedantennascomparisoncharts 


91XG's still provides the best F/B & F/R Ratio performance as well as best Forward Sidelobe levels, which provide superior Multipath Suppression. However, because it was designed for the OLD UHF Band, Raw Gain on the lower UHF channels is severely reduced (6 dB lower on 470 than 806 MHz!!!), compared to the alternatives.


It will probably take another month, but I'm working on some other versions of the Stacked FF4's with larger Reflectors that should increase Gain by perhaps another 1-2+ dB....stay tuned...


----------



## frankfontana


Let me know if this isn't the right forum!  And thanks in advance -- I'd really appreciate any advice.

 

I'm new to HDTV antennas and am looking for any recommendations on the best antenna for mounting in my attic.   A bit about my situation:

 

FCC.gov and TV Fool suggest that I can receive the following channels (I'd like UHF & VHF):

 

*Cha**nnel**Channel #**Receive Power (dbm)**Distance (miles)**Direction (deg)**Frequency*NBC / KNTV11-1-3125317Hi-V (12)CBS / KPIX5-1-3329322UHF (29)ABC7-1-4029322Hi-V (7)FOX2-1-3629322UHF (44)CW / KBCW44-1-3929322UHF (45)PBS9-1-3829322UHF (30)
 

I'd ideally be mounting the antenna in my attic (3rd floor, ~20ft from ground level)) under an asphalt shingle roof.  The other option would be outdoors, on a roof that's about 10ft off the ground. There are other houses and trees in the area but nothing that should significantly inhibit the signal, I think.  Either way, there would be ~50ft run from the antenna to my TV/DVR.

 

Any suggestions on recommendations for antennas?  I've been considering the ClearStream 4 and the 42XG antenna.

 

Thanks!

 

Frank


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *frankfontana*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16140#post_24659556
> 
> 
> 
> Let me know if this isn't the right forum!  And thanks in advance -- I'd really appreciate any advice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> Frank


Hi,

 

Right forum but your location would be helpful.

 

Posting your TVFool link would be just fine.

 

You appear to be ~ 10 miles to the North West of me.

 

Also we have an active SF Bay Forum with some of the same experts.

 

San Francisco, CA - OTA

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/newestpost/369015/san-francisco-ca-ota/60

 

Larry's list is very helpful:

 


> Quote:
> 
> Larry
> 
> 
> 
> My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
> 
> Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.choisser.com/broadcast.html
> 
> Check out photos and info on my antennas: http://www . larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html


 

 

SHF


----------



## frankfontana


SFischer1:  I'll post over on San Francisco, CA - OTA with my TVFool link.  Thanks a lot!

Frank


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16140#post_24658101
> 
> *STACKED 4-BAYS & 91XG COMPARED TO TWO PARABOLICS & A KISS QUASI-PARABOLIC*



A few questions and comments.....


Has anyone built and put into service the FF4 and the KISS Quasi-Parabolic? I know from experience that going from a model to a real functioning antenna requires significant engineering that most are not capable of. It would certainly be helpful to see a built one and the steps required to build it. I did find such info for the M4.


Would upscaling the 91XG by 12% move the gain curve down in frequency by the same? And would that bring the low end gain up a couple dB? Have you considered modeling an improved 91XG?


I use a pair of 91XGs because I think in my situation I need the high F/B ratio. I have a strong reflection off a mountain opposite from my stations. Attached is a typical spectrum analyzer trace showing the direct path in yellow and the reflected path in purple of KOVR RF 25. I think an antenna with 15 dB F/B wouldn't do so well here.


 



Edit: I found your page with three variations on modifying the 91XG. Has any one performed any of these modifications and tried it out?


----------



## tylerSC

If Channel Master or Antennacraft would still make their parabolic antennas, then I would definitely consider purchasing one. They were very good Fringe antennas for UHF.


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *tylerSC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16140#post_24664091
> 
> 
> If Channel Master or Antennacraft would still make their parabolic antennas, then I would definitely consider purchasing one. They were very good Fringe antennas for UHF.



Who are you kidding? Your mom wouldn't let you mount it on her roof.....


Neither company will ever make those huge antennas again. There's no money to be made is such a small volume, limited purpose, niche item.


----------



## Ratman

 http://www.rocketroberts.com/cm4251/cm4251.htm 


Check lower portion of the page:

Parabolic UHF Antennas For Sale

FOUR currently available


----------



## Calaveras

I took the liberty of pulling gain curves for the CM4251 and 91XG from various sources and plotting them on one graph. I don't think a CM4251 makes much sense when you can do nearly as good with 2 x 91XGs and the 91XGs are much better at rejecting signals from the rear.


There's a rule of thumb I learned long ago about when does it make sense in terms of gain and mechanical issues to switch from yagi type antennas to a dish. The rule is that a dish of 5 wavelengths in diameter makes more sense than trying to stack that many yagis. For 470 MHz that is about a 10' dish.


4 x 91XGs would be a little better than a 7' dish. Four is still possible. But it would take 8 x 91XGs to be any better than a 10' dish. IMO a 10' dish would be easier than stacking 8 x 91XGs including all the phasing and impedance matching problems that go along with it.


----------



## holl_ands

> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*
> 
> A few questions and comments.....
> 
> Has anyone built and put into service the FF4 and the KISS Quasi-Parabolic? I know from experience that going from a model to a real functioning antenna requires significant engineering that most are not capable of. It would certainly be helpful to see a built one and the steps required to build it. I did find such info for the M4.
> 
> Would upscaling the 91XG by 12% move the gain curve down in frequency by the same? And would that bring the low end gain up a couple dB? Have you considered modeling an improved 91XG?
> 
> I use a pair of 91XGs because I think in my situation I need the high F/B ratio. I have a strong reflection off a mountain opposite from my stations. Attached is a typical spectrum analyzer trace showing the direct path in yellow and the reflected path in purple of KOVR RF 25. I think an antenna with 15 dB F/B wouldn't do so well here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: I found your page with three variations on modifying the 91XG. Has any one performed any of these modifications and tried it out?


1. User _*schoolbus *_built the FF4 and hopefully will post OTA results in the near future and has expressed interest in the "FF8", two Vertically Stacked FF4's: [See photos beginning with fol. post]
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=2145865
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=2085465

2. I don't recall seeing anyone report on building a "KISS" Quasi-Parabolic....but you might want to query GHZ24 who came up with that (and other) designs:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1618034

3. In ALL of my uploaded 4nec2 Analysis webpages, I usually provide detailed Dimensions embedded within the 4nec2 (text) file (conveniently listed in the SYmbol section)...plus gridded Front/Top/Side diagrams. With over 400 different antennas uploaded thus far (and nearly 7500 images) I have NOT gone the extra step of doing Dimensioned Drawings....but I MIGHT do SOME of the (more interesting??? popular???) Antennas if someone twists my arm. But since my son sold his home (70-miles from Mt Wilson in L.A.) I'm NO longer ideally set up to do some OTA comparison tests and hence I'm not as interested in actually BUILDING very many more Actual Antennas...so I'll leave that to others....

4. Upscaling 91XG by 12% would result in the MAX Gain moving from 781 MHz (17.8 dBi) down to 698 MHz and the MIN Gain moving from 526 MHz (12.8 dBi) down to 470 MHz (per my 4nec2 Analysis, derived from EZNEC file found in Ken Nist's HDTVPrimer Antenna Comparison Webpage).

5. I investigated several alternative modifications to the 91XG's Bowtie Assemblies (presuming no changes to their spacing on the Boom) here:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis
"Simply" extending the Bowtie lengths was JUST AS EFFECTIVE as Rescaling the ENTIRE Antenna. Start reading from fol. link, continuing on to balm's postings re his OTA experience using the prototyped modifications:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1748433

If someone had access to a sheet metal punch or laser cutting machinery, it would be fairly easy to develop an UPGRADE KIT, removing and replacing the existing metal boomerang shaped "clip-in" bows (they're ALL the same size).....be sure to use metal that can survive the elements....and you might want to include detailed instructions and perhaps a "special tool" to help extract the bows.....could even be A-D if they were so inclined....

6. Post 5th Generation ATSC Tuners (i.e. some 2007 and pretty much all since 2008) made a dramatic leap forward in being able to process Multipath, as evidenced by the number of "Test Ensembles" the new chips were able to successfully process:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/728392/samsung-dtb-h260f-atsc-tuner/3630#post_24099133
Hence, I don't think that Multipath is as severe a problem for ATSC as it was earlier.....HOWEVER, since we haven't seen any new tests with very SHORT Delay Multipath (e.g. inside Attics), there still could be problems in most Attics which can be counted by using Anti-Multipath type Antennas (e.g. FF4 or at least a Multi-Bay Bowtie)....and as usual...YMMV....

========================================================================
Can you cite a source for the CM4251 Parabolic MEASURED Gain curve and "DTV PRIMER" 2x91XG Modeled Gain curve???? [Perhaps the latter included the (assumed? measured?) Loss in an RF Combiner....which I do NOT include in my Charts, citing www.antennahacks.com for actual measurements.

PS: Viewers should also note the use of dBd in your Comparison Chart, whereas most of us, incl. A-D and 4nec2, use dBi.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16140#post_24666578
> 
> 
> Can you cite a source for the CM4251 Parabolic MEASURED Gain curve and "DTV PRIMER" 2x91XG Modeled Gain curve???? [Perhaps the latter included the (assumed? measured?) Loss in an RF Combiner....which I do NOT include in my Charts, citing www.antennahacks.com for actual measurements.




Yes, there's a graph from Channel Master from 1982.

http://www.rocketroberts.com/cm4251/cm4251.htm 



> Quote:
> PS: Viewers should also note the use of dBd in your Comparison Chart, whereas most of us, incl. A-D and 4nec2, use dBi.




I'm not a fan of dBi. The only reason I can find to use dBi is that software packages have standardized on it. The graph above uses dBd. Most real world tests compare gain to a reference dipole.


----------



## holl_ands

There has always been a conceptual problem with using dBd. A Horizontal Dipole has a 3D radiation pattern that looks like a Donut on it's side (with a hole in the middle aligning along the Dipole's Axis). When plotting Azimuthal Charts or 3D radiation patterns in *dBd* units, the plot is the ACTUALLY the difference against the Dipole's Gain in the FORWARD direction....RATHER than the expected difference at each and every azimuth and elevation angle...which would require determining the array of values for the Dipole. So it's a bit of a misnomer to say it's "Relative to a Dipole" when you talk about angles other than Forward (or Backwards...or Overhead...as long as Azimuth=90-degrees).


In the Outdoor Antenna Test Ranges I've visited (as well as various EMI test rigs), the reference antennas were NOT Dipoles...they were wide bandwidth LPDAs with a known and usually well controlled Gain curve over the Band(s) of interest....and for wide-band EMI testing (or Tri-Band TV Antennas), several different LPDA's are required. Since a Dipole has a fairly narrow Bandwidth where the Gain is TRULY 0 dBd, a tester would need several suitcases full of Antennas. [And a FAT Dipole does NOT have the same Gain as the theoretically assumed Skinny Dipole.] It is also advantageous to mount the Antenna Under Test and the medium Gain LPDA *ROTATED* so they exchange VERTICALLY polarized signals to minimize the Ground Bounce component.


In Engineering Textbooks, we learn about the Friis Transmission Equation, where the Transmit and Receive Antenna Gain is expressed in Isotropic (dBi) units when using standard CGS (cm/gram/sec) or MKS (meter/kilogram/second) units of measurement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friis_transmission_equation 


Which is why most Engineers prefer to use dBi units...cuz it's what you're gonna plug into Friis and other equations when you make calculations.


----------



## holl_ands

What about source for "DTV PRIMER" modeling of STACKED 91XG's???


Yup, I've seen the C-M Chart depicting Measured Gain (in dBd)....showing actual implementation is roughly 1 dB lower than 300-ohm's "Coarse" CM4251 4nec2 model I used in my uploaded Analysis. I just wonder how much of that difference might be due to calibration errors, esp. wrt the Balun and Loss due to likely SWR mismatches...nonetheless it's in fairly close agreement given that 1982 vintage RF Test Equipment and OTA Ranges only had about +/- 1 dB accuracy to begin with). [In that same time frame I was doing daily calibration runs prior to each bench test on a prototype Comm System.]


BTW: C-M Chart is also consistent with C-M Specifications that can still be found here:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg5.htm 


FYI: 4nec2 Analysis for UHF Stick Dipole shows that Raw Gain varies by 0.5 dB across the Old UHF Band. "Acceptable" SWR Bandwidth is VERY NARROW with "Matched" 75-ohm Load....which is why 300-ohm "Mis-Match" is BETTER for Wideband operation:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/dipoles/uhfstickdipole 


Folded Dipole isn't much better.....and although Tri-Folded Dipole has a very flat Frequency Response, the "Acceptable" 300-ohm SWR Bandwidth still isn't enough to cover the entire UHF Band:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/uhffoldeddipoles


----------



## tylerSC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ProjectSHO89*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16140#post_24665026
> 
> 
> Who are you kidding? Your mom wouldn't let you mount it on her roof.....
> 
> 
> Neither company will ever make those huge antennas again. There's no money to be made is such a small volume, limited purpose, niche item.


Yes I know they are rather large. And she does not even want to fight the HOA for me to put a 91XG or a CM-4248 on the roof. Even though I told her the law is on our side. But she does not want to be a neighborhood 'troublemaker" and seems satisfied to pay Charter the monthly cable bill she always complains about. And she says the antenna would look unattractive on top of the house. But I do get very good reception with antennas in the attic, but there are about 2 or 3 fringe channels I would really like to have better results with by having the antenna outside.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16140#post_24668196
> 
> 
> There has always been a conceptual problem with using dBd. A Horizontal Dipole has a 3D radiation pattern that looks like a Donut on it's side (with a hole in the middle aligning along the Dipole's Axis). When plotting Azimuthal Charts or 3D radiation patterns in *dBd* units, the plot is the ACTUALLY the difference against the Dipole's Gain in the FORWARD direction....RATHER than the expected difference at each and every azimuth and elevation angle...which would require determining the array of values for the Dipole. So it's a bit of a misnomer to say it's "Relative to a Dipole" when you talk about angles other than Forward (or Backwards...or Overhead...as long as Azimuth=90-degrees).
> 
> 
> In the Outdoor Antenna Test Ranges I've visited (as well as various EMI test rigs), the reference antennas were NOT Dipoles...they were wide bandwidth LPDAs with a known and usually well controlled Gain curve over the Band(s) of interest....and for wide-band EMI testing (or Tri-Band TV Antennas), several different LPDA's are required. Since a Dipole has a fairly narrow Bandwidth where the Gain is TRULY 0 dBd, a tester would need several suitcases full of Antennas. [And a FAT Dipole does NOT have the same Gain as the theoretically assumed Skinny Dipole.] It is also advantageous to mount the Antenna Under Test and the medium Gain LPDA *ROTATED* so they exchange VERTICALLY polarized signals to minimize the Ground Bounce component.
> 
> 
> In Engineering Textbooks, we learn about the Friis Transmission Equation, where the Transmit and Receive Antenna Gain is expressed in Isotropic (dBi) units when using standard CGS (cm/gram/sec) or MKS (meter/kilogram/second) units of measurement:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friis_transmission_equation
> 
> 
> Which is why most Engineers prefer to use dBi units...cuz it's what you're gonna plug into Friis and other equations when you make calculations.




Thank-you for your input.


I understand what you're saying in regards to the dipole pattern changing at different positions around the dipole. I think what we're running into here is the theoretical world vs the practical world though. I think it more useful to have the pattern of an antenna plotted against the forward "gain" of dipole than an isotropic source. All this does is lower the numbers by 2.15 dB. It would make no sense at all to plot a pattern against the dipole pattern at all positions. I've never heard of anyone suggesting to do that. In the real world you can't perform tests against an isotropic source. A dipole would typically be considered the lowest gain antenna to use as a reference. As far as a "suitcase of dipoles" goes, one dipole controlled like StepIR does their antennas would do the trick. One dipole can be exactly tuned for each frequency tested.


Your comments and links on modeling are insightful. I think it underscores the difficulty going from a model to a working antenna. Since there are things the models don't take into account or adequately handle the antenna may not perform as predicted which has been my experience.


----------



## holl_ands

Most amateur antenna designers are using (FREE) 4nec2 or (inexpensive) EZNEC or (inexpensive) MiniNecPro, all of which generate plots ONLY in dBi units. Of course there are some Antenna Simulation programs out there that allow the user to select dBi or dBd, but there aren't very many people posting results using them, e.g."MN" which is a reduced feature version of MiniNEC. So you just won't find very many Antenna Simulation plots in dBd....


BTW: Antennas-Direct is about the only Commercial Antenna Manufacturer who cites the software (Remcom, Inc. X-FDTD 7.0 simulator) used for their posted dBi results:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/Technical%20Data%20PDF%27s/C2%2BVHF-TDS.pdf?cjid=6146852 


In North America, Wade also uses dBi, whereas Wade-Delhi use dBd, same as Winegard and Channel-Master. In Europe: Antiference (UK), Fracarro (IT) and Triax (UK) all explicitly state that their specs are in dBi.....but all too frequently manufacturers ambiguously say "dB" so you have to look at a simple Antenna example (e.g. Dipole or 4-Bay) to determine whether they are using dBi or dBd.


================================================

Antenna Models are much more representative of the Actual Antenna wrt Raw Gain than SWR since the latter is significantly affected by "extra" Metal and Dielectric Insulators in the vicinity of the Feedpoint, Feedlines and (perhaps) the Passive Element attachment points, whereas Gain is primarily determined by the LENGTH of the Elements and is only mildly affected by what you do in the MIDDLE of the Elements...other than the fairly well-known Boom Correction needed for Yagi's since they are modeled WITHOUT the Boom.


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jspENC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16140#post_24654568
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16150_50#post_24654452
> 
> 
> Thanks, I guess that's why my first preamp stopped working. I have another one now but I have not been connecting it via the splitter. It's wired the way you see pictured just so we can watch TV in the bedroom.
> 
> So just to make sure I understand, I need a two way splitter with one of the outputs capable of passing dc current which would be the one that feeds to my indoor power supply? I then need a voltage block on the other output port of the splitter that will feed tv 2. Is that all correct?
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This image below is an example of what you need. The room with the amp power supply gets the cable hooked to the power passive side. You need no extra DC block with this particular splitter. Only if you have a dual power passive on all ports would you need the DC blocker
> 
> https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRT3COrWVpWfp0B86Ays-it7N2gcMAISMFKBi6dm4V4YKqAn_VCgw
Click to expand...


The saga continues. Received my new dc passing splitter today. Hooked everything up and reprogrammed. I received 20 channels. That's what I receive with no preamp. So I went back on the roof and bypassed the splitter so I just essentially had a coax from ANT to preamp to tv 1. Still 20 channels. Went back to the roof and disconnected the preamp and also disconnected the power injector from the tv. So coax from ANT to tv 1 and still getting 20 channels. No way this preamp has gone bad too. I received 30 channels with it before.


Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16170#post_24671337
> 
> 
> The saga continues. Received my new dc passing splitter today. Hooked everything up and reprogrammed. I received 20 channels. That's what I receive with no preamp. So I went back on the roof and bypassed the splitter so I just essentially had a coax from ANT to preamp to tv 1. Still 20 channels. Went back to the roof and disconnected the preamp and also disconnected the power injector from the tv. So coax from ANT to tv 1 and still getting 20 channels. No way this preamp has gone bad too. I received 30 channels with it before.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk



I suspect this is telling you two things:


1) The 20 channels are strong enough that they don't need a preamp.


2) The remaining 10 channels were scanned in when you had some temperature inversion enhanced conditions and they don't come in under nominal conditions. If that's the case, those stations are likely to be too unstable to ever be reliable.


Do you know which stations made up the 10 channels? We could look at your TV Fool list and see if that looks likely.


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16170#post_24671493
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect this is telling you two things:
> 
> 
> 1) The 20 channels are strong enough that they don't need a preamp.
> 
> 
> 2) The remaining 10 channels were scanned in when you had some temperature inversion enhanced conditions and they don't come in under nominal conditions. If that's the case, those stations are likely to be too unstable to ever be reliable.
> 
> 
> Do you know which stations made up the 10 channels? We could look at your TV Fool list and see if that looks likely.


 

Well, only one stands out and that was ZUUS (country music videos).  I just looked it up and it appears it was on channel 33.3 which I don't see on my TV Fool report.

 

* http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de1c63b04c4ca8e *

 

*I know I can try this and answer my own question but I'm getting ready for work.  Will the diagnostic screen indicate if my preamp is working or not?*


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16170#post_24671534
> 
> 
> Well, only one stands out and that was ZUUS (country music videos).  I just looked it up and it appears it was on channel 33.3 which I don't see on my TV Fool report.
> 
> * http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de1c63b04c4ca8e *
> 
> *I know I can try this and answer my own question but I'm getting ready for work.  Will the diagnostic screen indicate if my preamp is working or not?*



33.3 is WTVZ in Norfolk. Must not be close to you as I don't see it in your list. Which diagnostic screen? Sony TV?


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16170#post_24671646
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 33.3 is WTVZ in Norfolk. Must not be close to you as I don't see it in your list. Which diagnostic screen? Sony TV?


 



Yep, Sony Bravia. So, I guess it would still be beneficial to keep the preamp installed although I receive no additional channels, right? I guess if it doesn't overamplify the signals, it won't do anything but good things for my setup, right?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16170#post_24672063
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, Sony Bravia. So, I guess it would still be beneficial to keep the preamp installed although I receive no additional channels, right? I guess if it doesn't overamplify the signals, it won't do anything but good things for my setup, right?



You can tell if the preamp is working by looking at AGC% on the Sony Diagnostic screen. The number will be lower with the preamp than without. This is a real signal strength meter but in reads in reverse. The lower the number the stronger the signal. You don't want to see numbers much lower than 25% as that means signals are getting close to overloading the tuner.


----------



## Pete-N2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16170#post_24671493
> 
> 
> I suspect this is telling you two things:
> 
> 
> 1) The 20 channels are strong enough that they don't need a preamp.
> 
> 
> 2) The remaining 10 channels were scanned in when you had some temperature inversion enhanced conditions and they don't come in under nominal conditions. If that's the case, those stations are likely to be too unstable to ever be reliable.
> 
> 
> Do you know which stations made up the 10 channels? We could look at your TV Fool list and see if that looks likely.


7.1,7. 2,10.1,10.2,10.3,13.1,13.2,13.3,15.1,15.3,21.1,21.2,27.1,27.2,38.1-6

7=

20

CBS,NBC,ABC,PBS,CW,FOX,ION


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pete-N2*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16170#post_24672118
> 
> 
> 7.1,7. 2,10.1,10.2,10.3,13.1,13.2,13.3,15.1,15.3,21.1,21.2,27.1,27.2,38.1-6
> 
> 7=
> 
> 20
> 
> CBS,NBC,ABC,PBS,CW,FOX,ION



This looks like the 20 channels he gets all the time. I wanted to know what were the 10 channels that only scanned in once. If one was from Norfolk they probably all were.


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pete-N2*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16170#post_24672118
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 7.1,7. 2,10.1,10.2,10.3,13.1,13.2,13.3,15.1,15.3,21.1,21.2,27.1,27.2,38.1-6
> 
> 
> 7=
> 
> 
> 20
> 
> 
> CBS,NBC,ABC,PBS,CW,FOX,ION


 



Pete, I'm getting all of those and I'm happy about that. I've become greedy since I first started this deal though. I only cared about receiving NBC, CBS, and Fox. I've come a long way.


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16170#post_24672238
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This looks like the 20 channels he gets all the time. I wanted to know what were the 10 channels that only scanned in once. If one was from Norfolk they probably all were.


 



You're right about that being what I already receive. I remember one was a gospel channel and one was Bounce TV which also appears to be in Norfork. So, should I leave the preamp connected to help with the channels I already receive? It should do nothing but help the signal strength, right?


----------



## ProjectSHO89




> Quote:
> use dBd, same as Winegard and Channel-Master.



Actually, both have started to use dBi in the last several years for newly generated datasheets (older ones have not been changed).


Channel Master's "Masterpiece" series is the primary example of their new specs: http://www.channelmasterstore.com/Masterpiece_Digital_HDTV_Antenna_p/cm-5020.htm (click on the "Specifications" Tab).


Winegard started using dBi at least in '09. Their data sheet for the HD-FV30, which I found somewhere here on AVS 4-5 yrs ago, specifies an IEEE test range standard, but then they apparently converted to dBi. They then added this gem to the sheet: "For dB dipole gain figures, add -2.2 dB to the dBi gain figures." They haven't done much as for new outdoor models with any updated specification sheets since then. Same for the HD-1080, also launched in 2009.


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16170#post_24672284
> 
> 
> 
> So, should I leave the preamp connected to help with the channels I already receive?



Yes, you should be fine with that.


----------



## Pete-N2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16170#post_24672238
> 
> 
> This looks like the 20 channels he gets all the time. I wanted to know what were the 10 channels that only scanned in once. If one was from Norfolk they probably all were.


Yes, I was just trying to point out that we are really talking about 7 (RF) channels and maybe 3 or 4 extra. Based on my experience I would guess he might have picked up a station or two from Greensboro, Charlottesville, or Richmond and it was there just long enough to get added. I pick up 29 from C'ville every few days, especially when it is rainy/foggy


----------



## Pete-N2




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16170#post_24672267
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pete-N2*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16170#post_24672118
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 7.1,7. 2,10.1,10.2,10.3,13.1,13.2,13.3,15.1,15.3,21.1,21.2,27.1,27.2,38.1-6
> 
> 
> 7=
> 
> 
> 20
> 
> 
> CBS,NBC,ABC,PBS,CW,FOX,ION
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pete, I'm getting all of those and I'm happy about that. I've become greedy since I first started this deal though. I only cared about receiving NBC, CBS, and Fox. I've come a long way.
Click to expand...


With the setup you have if you pickup those channels with a minimum number of decode errors consider yourself lucky. Any other stations you would pickup would probably be network duplicates anyway.


Of course you could always get a tower and and set up a system like Calaveras'!










(If I understand correctly the NRV has no option for ABC via OTA)


----------



## jspENC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Finch85*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16150_50#post_24672267
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pete-N2*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16170#post_24672118
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 7.1,7. 2,10.1,10.2,10.3,13.1,13.2,13.3,15.1,15.3,21.1,21.2,27.1,27.2,38.1-6
> 
> 
> 7=
> 
> 
> 20
> 
> 
> CBS,NBC,ABC,PBS,CW,FOX,ION
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pete, I'm getting all of those and I'm happy about that. I've become greedy since I first started this deal though. I only cared about receiving NBC, CBS, and Fox. I've come a long way.
Click to expand...


If you are getting channels from WBRA down to WDBJ or the one under it in your tvfool list, then you are receiving all you can. Once the NM(db) drops to zero, it takes more than it's worth to try and pick up those channels in just about all cases. Raising the antenna may help some, but probably not enough to get consistent pictures.


Do another TV fool with the antenna at 30 ft and lets look at it again.


----------



## Calaveras

My experience with TV fool is that it is pretty accurate for LOS stations but can be wildly inaccurate for 1 and 2 edge stations. Attached is my TV Fool list for the antenna shown in my avatar at 70'. If I was to appear here asking for advice with that report I suspect most would say forget it.







Fortunately TV Fool is largely pessimistic in my case and reception is far better than predicted.


I annotated my TV Fool report with % of time I receive the stations. All my locals are closer to 99.9% so recording is mostly okay. I've also attached a spreadsheet showing actual noise margins of some stations I receive versus TV Fool predictions. I made an attempt to include antenna gain and noise figure improvement using a preamp instead of just the TV tuner. These are my best estimates but the last column shows how under / over the TV Fool predictions are.


What's left off the TV Fool report are the 10 or so stations that I receive part time that aren't even on the list including KEMO at nearly 100%.


Nobody should infer from my experience that they will be able to receive any stations shown as gray in their list with any antenna.


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jspENC*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16170#post_24674232
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are getting channels from WBRA down to WDBJ or the one under it in your tvfool list, then you are receiving all you can. Once the NM(db) drops to zero, it takes more than it's worth to try and pick up those channels in just about all cases. Raising the antenna may help some, but probably not enough to get consistent pictures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do another TV fool with the antenna at 30 ft and lets look at it again.


 



Here's a 30 ft report. I'm going to stick with my current height of 15' but I understand why you're asking.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de1c6e4c2f81861


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pete-N2*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16170#post_24673752
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With the setup you have if you pickup those channels with a minimum number of decode errors consider yourself lucky. Any other stations you would pickup would probably be network duplicates anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course you could always get a tower and and set up a system like Calaveras'!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (If I understand correctly the NRV has no option for ABC via OTA)


 



Haha, I'm good with my current setup but I do admire Calavera's setup.







Appreciate all the help!


----------



## Finch85




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Calaveras*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16170#post_24672371
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, you should be fine with that.


 



I woke up around 2:30 pm today (working nightshift) and the first thing the wife informs me is that ABC has gone out. Well, I'm glad it did because my preamp was currently unhooked. I re-installed the preamp and rescanned and rec'd about 24 channels (some duplicates) and ABC came in crystal clear so I know this preamp is still working and you were correct (as usual







)


Connected my new TIVO Roamio and rescanned and it actually picked up more channels than when I had just rescanned with the tv after reconnecting the amp. It was only a couple more channels but is this due to better tuners in the Tivo than the TV?


Either way, I'm receiving everything and more than I initially wanted and we're both happy with the current setup. I went into the Tivo diagnostics to check out the signal strengths. I might try turning the antenna since this diagnostic screen is more user friendly than that of my Sony Bravia just to see if I can get a stronger signal. Maybe I should just leave it be but I want to try and get the most out of my setup.


Again, I want to thank you all for the help and hopefully everything will work fine from here on out. I'm hoping that my 91XG will continue to pull in PBS and ABC so I don't need an additional antenna. If not, I'll go with what you suggested, Calaveras.


----------



## jspENC

Raising the antenna may or may not do anything, it could get better or even worse. All you can do is try, but if you are getting what you want with a good signal, I would leave it. According to the 30' report, it doesn't do much of anything for the channels you don't receive currently.


Some of the newer tuners are much better. I know the Dynex LCD I have that's just over 2 yrs old has an excellent tuner, even better than the brand new RCA LED I have.


----------



## glbtrekker

I'm trying to cut the cord and need help selecting the best antenna for my area. Here's my TV]TV Fool Analysis . What do you think? One vendor recommended the Winegard HD 7698. Would that work for my situation? Thanks!


----------



## jspENC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *glbtrekker*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16150_50#post_24710187
> 
> 
> I'm trying to cut the cord and need help selecting the best antenna for my area. Here's my TV]TV Fool Analysis . What do you think? One vendor recommended the Winegard HD 7698. Would that work for my situation? Thanks!



You have the TV fool report showing the antenna mounted at 10 feet... Is this the intended height? You have a low VHF WWWB LD on channel 3. Is this something you would watch? If not, then the Winegard 7698 would be a good choice. Also look at an antennacraft HBU 44 or HBU 55


----------



## glbtrekker

No, I don't intend on watching WWWB. However, I was hoping to stay at the 10-15' height in order to avoid masts, guide wires, etc. Do you think the Winegard would work at this height? Or should I plan on elevating it to 20-30 feet?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *glbtrekker*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16170#post_24710187
> 
> 
> I'm trying to cut the cord and need help selecting the best antenna for my area. Here's my TV]TV Fool Analysis . What do you think? One vendor recommended the Winegard HD 7698. Would that work for my situation? Thanks!



Your signals (except for one) are all quite weak. You need to get a 7698 up as high as possible and it needs to clear the local vegetations and buildings. You need a preamp too. Even if you receive all the stations you want, with 2 edge paths it's likely you'll see some dropouts under certain atmospheric conditions (not rain).


----------



## jspENC




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *glbtrekker*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16150_50#post_24710786
> 
> 
> No, I don't intend on watching WWWB. However, I was hoping to stay at the 10-15' height in order to avoid masts, guide wires, etc. Do you think the Winegard would work at this height? Or should I plan on elevating it to 20-30 feet?



If you are unable to elevate it, I would just about forget the project and order subscription TV. I would try for at least 20 feet and if you split the signal at all, a strong pre amp is a must!


----------



## sammiii


I'm sorry, it is completely off topic, if you can direct me to other place where I can ask that would be great...

We found an apartment to rent, the problem is there is this building with antennas in front of our apartment building and I'm concerned with how antennas (particularly cell towers) can affect health... Can anyone tell what kind of antennas are these?  Are they safe?

Thank you!


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sammiii*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16170#post_24787727
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, it is completely off topic, if you can direct me to other place where I can ask that would be great...
> 
> We found an apartment to rent, the problem is there is this building with antennas in front of our apartment building and I'm concerned with how antennas (particularly cell towers) can affect health... Can anyone tell what kind of antennas are these?  Are they safe?
> 
> Thank you!




Personally I have no concern about this. Transmitters have to meet FCC Human RF Exposure limits. The antennas in your image have very low RF levels going down into the building. Most of the power is directed out horizontally. Here are a couple of links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_radiation_and_health#Health_hazards_of_base_stations 

http://www.wirelessweek.com/news/2007/03/myth-cellular-tower-health-hazards


----------



## sammiii


Thank you, Calaveras!

> Most of the power is directed out horizontally. 

We are not going to live in this house with antennas, but in front of it.  Does it mean that if our windows are on the same level as these antennas, we'll get the most amount of radiation?

Also, are these cell antennas indeed?


----------



## AntAltMike




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sammiii*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16200#post_24787863
> 
> 
> ...> Most of the power is directed out horizontally.
> 
> We are not going to live in this house with antennas, but in front of it. Does it mean that if our windows are on the same level as these antennas, we'll get the most amount of radiation?...



From: The Pepsi Sundrome:

*Female Reporter #1:* Well, how much radiation are we being exposed to right now?

*Ross Denton* (played by Richard Benjamin): Well, I'm sure all of us here have been to the doctor and had our chest x-ray, haven't we? Well, it's just like that, only it's as if the doctor had to give you the chest x-ray over, and over, and over again. Or, it's like falling asleep under a sun lamp for a week or two! Or, it's like drying your hair in a microwave oven! And to give you some idea of how little danger there actually is, President Carter will be here tomorrow. Now, gentlemen, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Yes, I'm sorry I have to cut this press conference short, but now I'd like to hand the stage over to the Two Mile players! They're a pro-nuclear mime troope, and they're going to perform a little skit for you, kids!


----------



## holl_ands

Unless you are IN-THE-BEAM and less than a few FEET from the Celluar Antennas, they aren't a Radiation Health Threat:
http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/faqs/cellphoneqa.html 


The REAL CONCERN is that CELLPHONE you are holding right up to your HEAD for many hours a day......which is completely discounted by many "Official" sources as being a Health Threat....and if there WAS a real, provable problem, they would be banned:
http://cellphonehealthfacts.com 


BTW: Because the frequency and strength of these Radio Waves is too low to actually IONIZE atoms, the only physical effect is to increase the HEAT of an irradiated object (like your HEAD).....which is barely enough to even measure. You get a LOT more HEAT by laying out in the SUN.....or staying in the SHADE at some Tropical locales....


----------



## jspENC

I agree about the cell phones to the head. They will cause brain tumors. Use the speaker phone and keep the phone away from your head.


----------



## holl_ands

*CM4228 Analyzed to Determine the Screen Reflector's Grid Size Effectiveness:*


I wondered what was the most effective Gird Size in a Screen Grid Reflector, esp. given that the Wind Resistance

was HALF as much if the Height and Width were both doubled in size. The fol. results "should" be typical for

many other 4-Bay and 8-Bay Antennas....


So I added Grid Size Effectiveness Charts for 0.5"Hx1"W, 1"Hx2"W, 2"Hx2"W and 4"Hx4"W:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl/oldcm4228wrefl 


ERRATA: Finally found suspected error in above Chart for F/B Ratio with 0.5"Hx1"W Grid size....

When I copied Raw Gain Spread Sheet for F/B & F/R, it was still pointing to Net Gain vice F/B Ratio data column.

Updated Charts are shown below. 4nec2 Charts are NOT affected.


Also added 3"Hx2"W....which nicely fits in-between plots for 2"Hx2"W and 4"Hx4"w.

Plots for 1"Hx1"W and 2"Hx4"W are not included, since they were within a few tenths of a dB of 1"Hx2"W and 2"Hx2"W respectively.

The spacing of the HORIZONTAL wires primarily determine performance, since Vertical Wires have only minimal effect on Horizontally Polarized signals.


REVISED NARRATIVE:

Added Grid Size Effectiveness Charts for 0.5"Hx1"W, 1"Hx2"W, 2"Hx2"W, 3"Hx2"W and 4"Hx4"W.

Raw Gain was about the SAME, except (as expected) some loss with and about 1-2 dB LOSS for 4"Hx4"W.

Front/Back Ratio was much better with 1"Hx2"W than 0.5"Hx1"W and progressively lower for 2"Hx2"W, 3"Hx2"W and 4"Hx4"W.

Front/Rear Ratio was about the SAME with 1"Hx2"W and 0.5"Hx1"W and progressively lower for 2"Hx2"W, 3"Hx2"W and 4"Hx4"W.


----------



## Alittleredhen


Don't know if this is the right place for this.......

 

Hi, I am pretty knowledgeable about alot of things on the house, but electronics is a mystery to me. And I don't have a dad or brother to ask these things of. Please help me figure out which antenna I need. 

 

I live in Boca Raton, FL zip 33487. My house is single story. I want to put a whole house antenna in the attic. Currently, I have an amplified splitter (plugged into electric with cable TV line) with 7 dedicated lines going to each room.

 

When I look up the address on those sites, it says I have a strong signal from both West Palm Beach and Miami. It says I am 30 miles from towers in West Palm and 50 from Miami. It says West Palm is 20 degrees and Miami is 300 degrees. From that info, that I have signals due north and due south, I believe I need a multidirectional antenna........correct?

 

Now, which one...........? I read about them on Amazon etc. but unfortunately, I don't understand the technical jargon that people who know about these things use. I chatted with a rep at one of the big online sellers of amplifiers and he suggested a DB8e antenna, a VHF antenna retro fit kit and a 9 way HD drop bidirectional amp CDA8 for $285.

 

I have a Roku and have been living with that since Comcast cut me off after they figured out they left basic cable on my TV's when I cut the cord. But I want to get this done. I have started and stopped many times because I'm afraid of buying the wrong thing. I don't mind spending the money. I want to do it once and do it right. I don't have 7 TV's right now, but I want the house to be set up for more if I buy them. Several are still analog right now and I use Roku with those. 

 

Thank you for any help...........Nina in Florida


----------



## DrLar

We currently in need of TV reception indoors, this is a factory building (about 24ft high) so there could be a lot of interference and it also has a metal roof.


Some TVs are needed near the center of the building.


installing an outside antenna and running coax is out of the question (leased building they won't allow this)


Any good indoor antennas that could pull this off?


Thanks


----------



## SFischer1




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DrLar*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16200#post_24813958
> 
> 
> We currently in need of TV reception indoors, this is a factory building (about 24ft high) so there could be a lot of interference and it also has a metal roof.
> 
> 
> Some TVs are needed near the center of the building.
> 
> 
> installing an outside antenna and running coax is out of the question (leased building they won't allow this)
> 
> 
> Any good indoor antennas that could pull this off?
> 
> 
> Thanks


Hi,

 

If there is one, you have found the goose that lays golden eggs.









 

One solution would be like my DTV system.

 

Mount an antenna near the outside and connect it to a HDHomeRUN tuner connected to a wireless router.

 

Then a wireless laptop could use the tuner and drive a large TV using HDMI.

 

Works great for me. YMMV

 

SHF


----------



## holl_ands

ERRATA to Post #16205 above: Finally found suspected error in above Chart for F/B Ratio with 0.5"Hx1"W Grid size....

When I copied Raw Gain Spread Sheet for F/B & F/R, it was still pointing to Net Gain vice F/B Ratio data column.

Updated Charts are shown above. 4nec2 Charts are NOT affected.


Also added 3"Hx2"W....which nicely fits in-between plots for 2"Hx2"W and 4"Hx4"w.

Plots for 1"Hx1"W and 2"Hx4"W are not included, since they were within a few tenths of a dB of 1"Hx2"W and 2"Hx2"W respectively.

The spacing of the HORIZONTAL wires primarily determine performance, since Vertical Wires have only minimal effect on Horizontally Polarized signals.


----------



## rdcollns




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16200#post_24815638
> 
> 
> ERRATA to Post #16205 above: Finally found suspected error in above Chart for F/B Ratio with 0.5"Hx1"W Grid size....
> 
> When I copied Raw Gain Spread Sheet for F/B & F/R, it was still pointing to Net Gain vice F/B Ratio data column.
> 
> Updated Charts are shown above. 4nec2 Charts are NOT affected.
> 
> 
> Also added 3"Hx2"W....which nicely fits in-between plots for 2"Hx2"W and 4"Hx4"w.
> 
> Plots for 1"Hx1"W and 2"Hx4"W are not included, since they were within a few tenths of a dB of 1"Hx2"W and 2"Hx2"W respectively.
> 
> The spacing of the HORIZONTAL wires primarily determine performance, since Vertical Wires have only minimal effect on Horizontally Polarized signals.





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *holl_ands*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16200#post_24815638
> 
> 
> ERRATA to Post #16205 above: Finally found suspected error in above Chart for F/B Ratio with 0.5"Hx1"W Grid size....
> 
> When I copied Raw Gain Spread Sheet for F/B & F/R, it was still pointing to Net Gain vice F/B Ratio data column.
> 
> Updated Charts are shown above. 4nec2 Charts are NOT affected.
> 
> 
> Also added 3"Hx2"W....which nicely fits in-between plots for 2"Hx2"W and 4"Hx4"w.
> 
> Plots for 1"Hx1"W and 2"Hx4"W are not included, since they were within a few tenths of a dB of 1"Hx2"W and 2"Hx2"W respectively.
> 
> The spacing of the HORIZONTAL wires primarily determine performance, since Vertical Wires have only minimal effect on Horizontally Polarized signals.



Would a change in the gauge of the grid bars affect this?


----------



## Calaveras




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Alittleredhen*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16200#post_24811934
> 
> 
> Don't know if this is the right place for this.......
> 
> 
> Hi, I am pretty knowledgeable about alot of things on the house, but electronics is a mystery to me. And I don't have a dad or brother to ask these things of. Please help me figure out which antenna I need.
> 
> 
> I live in Boca Raton, FL zip 33487. My house is single story. I want to put a whole house antenna in the attic. Currently, I have an amplified splitter (plugged into electric with cable TV line) with 7 dedicated lines going to each room.
> 
> 
> When I look up the address on those sites, it says I have a strong signal from both West Palm Beach and Miami. It says I am 30 miles from towers in West Palm and 50 from Miami. It says West Palm is 20 degrees and Miami is 300 degrees. From that info, that I have signals due north and due south, I believe I need a multidirectional antenna........correct?
> 
> 
> Now, which one...........? I read about them on Amazon etc. but unfortunately, I don't understand the technical jargon that people who know about these things use. I chatted with a rep at one of the big online sellers of amplifiers and he suggested a DB8e antenna, a VHF antenna retro fit kit and a 9 way HD drop bidirectional amp CDA8 for $285.
> 
> 
> I have a Roku and have been living with that since Comcast cut me off after they figured out they left basic cable on my TV's when I cut the cord. But I want to get this done. I have started and stopped many times because I'm afraid of buying the wrong thing. I don't mind spending the money. I want to do it once and do it right. I don't have 7 TV's right now, but I want the house to be set up for more if I buy them. Several are still analog right now and I use Roku with those.
> 
> 
> Thank you for any help...........Nina in Florida




You should post this on the Miami/Ft. Lauderdale HDTV thread and be sure to include a link to your TV Fool report.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/43823/miami-ft-lauderdale-fl-hdtv


----------



## holl_ands




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *rdcollns*  /t/381623/the-official-avs-antenna-and-related-hardware-topic/16200#post_24815748
> 
> 
> 
> Would a change in the gauge of the grid bars affect this?


Wire Size for Screen Grid Reflector isn't very important as long as it's in the "realistic" range of AWG18 to say AWG8.

And FYI for other Antennas Modelers: Surface Patch (alternative option) doesn't even HAVE an entry for the solid surface thickness....


----------



## Rugged1

*advice*

Hi All

I'm very new to this and want to add an antenna in my attic as I slowly migrate away from Directv and my $100/mo cable bill. 

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e1c68f89ba456a

I ran this report and don't know what type of antenna to get. I just want to reach the nashville locals (big 4+pbs). I have a 2 story house and would much rather put the antenna in my attic which has really good line of sight south towards the broadcast towers.

I already have coax in my attic that I can tap into but I'm not sure if and where I'd put an amp.

all help is greatly appreciated!


----------



## Calaveras

Rugged1 said:


> Hi All
> 
> I'm very new to this and want to add an antenna in my attic as I slowly migrate away from Directv and my $100/mo cable bill.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e1c68f89ba456a
> 
> I ran this report and don't know what type of antenna to get. I just want to reach the nashville locals (big 4+pbs). I have a 2 story house and would much rather put the antenna in my attic which has really good line of sight south towards the broadcast towers.
> 
> I already have coax in my attic that I can tap into but I'm not sure if and where I'd put an amp.
> 
> all help is greatly appreciated!



Your TV Fool report says more than half your stations are not line of sight so this could be a problem for an attic installation. I assume you want all the stations at 263 and 220 degrees. You can probably split the difference at 240 degrees. You have channels 8 and 10 so you need high VHF in addition to UHF. I'd get the largest antenna in the Antennacraft HBU series or the Winegard HD769xP series you can fit in the attic. Since you have some very strong signals I would try it without a preamp first. It might be subject to overload. If you can't get everything you want then an outdoor installation is the next step.


----------



## Rugged1

Calaveras said:


> Your TV Fool report says more than half your stations are not line of sight so this could be a problem for an attic installation. I assume you want all the stations at 263 and 220 degrees. You can probably split the difference at 240 degrees. You have channels 8 and 10 so you need high VHF in addition to UHF. I'd get the largest antenna in the Antennacraft HBU series or the Winegard HD769xP series you can fit in the attic. Since you have some very strong signals I would try it without a preamp first. It might be subject to overload. If you can't get everything you want then an outdoor installation is the next step.


okay, thank you for that info. I do have the option to mount an antenna on the old Directv Mast but it's on the back side of the house and really in the opposite facing of the towers. Does that matter that I would have the peak of the roof in the way? 

I have to believe that mounting inside the attic is actually a better solution since i can't mount on the front slope of my roof and i don't have a chimney.

thoughts?


----------



## Calaveras

Rugged1 said:


> okay, thank you for that info. I do have the option to mount an antenna on the old Directv Mast but it's on the back side of the house and really in the opposite facing of the towers. Does that matter that I would have the peak of the roof in the way?


There would be no benefit to have it outside just to look through the roof twice. Try the attic and see if you receive all the stations you want. Results vary so widely that no one can predict in advance exactly what your results will be.

Every location has a minimum installation required to receive the stations you want. If an outdoor antenna at 30' is required then there is no magic antenna that will perform the same in a lesser installation. All you can do is hope that the antenna you're wiling to install will meet your reception requirements.


----------



## Rugged1

Calaveras said:


> There would be no benefit to have it outside just to look through the roof twice. Try the attic and see if you receive all the stations you want. Results vary so widely that no one can predict in advance exactly what your results will be.
> 
> Every location has a minimum installation required to receive the stations you want. If an outdoor antenna at 30' is required then there is no magic antenna that will perform the same in a lesser installation. All you can do is hope that the antenna you're wiling to install will meet your reception requirements.


excellent...thank you. that's what I assumed. I didn't think putting it on the backside of my house would help. Plus my attic install spot would be higher obviously.

I currently have one of those mohu leaf antennas and put it on top of tv cabinet in the first floor of our house and pick up all the network stations I want with just a tiny bit of interference on a couple channels. I'm sure it's an inferior antenna and it's definitely mounted far lower in my house so I have to assume a higher powered antenna like you suggest will outperform. 

thoughts...


----------



## Ennui

Maybe you can mount on the peak end of your roof like I did? I can post more pics if you want to try that.


----------



## SFischer1

DrLar said:


> We currently in need of TV reception indoors, this is a factory building (about 24ft high) so there could be a lot of interference and it also has a metal roof.
> 
> Some TVs are needed near the center of the building.
> 
> installing an outside antenna and running coax is out of the question (leased building they won't allow this)
> 
> Any good indoor antennas that could pull this off?
> 
> Thanks


Hi,


While fixing up my bookmarks for the new (old) system I found this, really no help for the OP but may be of help for some people.


http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...hf-set-top-antenna-review-round-up-guide.html


SHF


----------



## WeAreNotAlone69

DrLar said:


> We currently in need of TV reception indoors, this is a factory building (about 24ft high) so there could be a lot of interference and it also has a metal roof.
> 
> Some TVs are needed near the center of the building.
> 
> installing an outside antenna and running coax is out of the question (leased building they won't allow this)
> 
> Any good indoor antennas that could pull this off?
> 
> Thanks


Metal roof is probably going to cause problems.

Unless you can site antenna thru a window, and /or are extremely close to the towers to get any kind of decent reception most likely a outside antenna will be needed... only other options are cable, and or satellite.

Q: You say they.won't allow a outside antenna, as in they don't want you drilling holes in their building? 
If that is their only concern you could run the coax thru a roof vent and use a tripod with sand bags to weigh down antenna.

I seriously doubt they are going to use the excuse they don't want a antenna on the roof for "aesthetic reasons" on a "factory building", if so ask them to weigh the amount of money they are getting each month in rent on that factory building vs your need for a antenna.

BTW: If the building landlords agree to allowing a outside antenna to be installed or refuse, do a follow-up post detailing the entire affair. Such info might help others in a similar situation.

.


----------



## tripleM

*Antenna inside cabinet & Missing one channel only*

I have a flat screen TV mounted inside a kitchen cabinet.
The antenna is an indoor RCA ANT1400 from Best Buy located behind the vertical 'board' that is used to mount the flat screen inside the cab.

I get all the OTA networks fantastically - except one - the local NBC affiliate.
I tried moving antenna all around back there & still can't catch NBC _unless _the TV swings away from inside the cab a bit.
Strange but when the TV swings out - NBC works.
But when the TV is pushed back flat against the mounting board inside the cab, NBC signal goes dark.

The coax seem tights & all other channels come through regardless of position of TV.
Is this a reception problem or is it hardware?


My stats are as follows:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e1c6f5e29e2ce5


----------



## SFischer1

tripleM said:


> ...
> Is this a reception problem or is it hardware?
> 
> My stats are as follows:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de1c6f5e29e2ce5


It looks to me like an antenna selection problem.



TVFool said:


> *WWBT (Digital)*
> 
> *Channel: *12 (12.1)
> *Network: *NBC
> *Maximum ERP: *26.000 kW
> *Coordinates: *37.506536 -77.503041


 
You may need an antenna that gets VHF-Hi as WWBT is not UHF.


SHF


----------



## holl_ands

If you can't get OTA DTV to work, you are a perfect candidate for COMCAST Cable TV. Call and ask about the cost (Introductory & AFTER the intro rate, est. $20/mo) of *JUST "Limited Basic" (ONLY Local Channels and a few "gimmies")* and also when bundled with Internet and/or Phone service (maybe $50/mo....you will NOT readily find the cost listed on their website....cable companies don't want people to KNOW about this low-cost option..sometimes called "Lifeline"):
http://customer.comcast.com/help-an...etween-limited-basic-and-expanded-basic-cable
http://forums.comcast.com/t5/forums/searchpage/tab/message?q=limited+basic&filter=labels

They also don't want you to know the low cost of their LEAST EXPENSIVE Digital Tier....the FAMILY TIER....and carefully find out if you have to pay for it on TOP of the cost of "Limited Basic":
http://customer.comcast.com/help-and-support/cable-tv/family-tier-channels
http://forums.comcast.com/t5/forums/searchpage/tab/message?q=family+tier

If you MUST have Internet Service for your business (doesn't everyone), then adding a BUNCH of Digital TV Channels is only another $20/mo plus whatever (Free now, $2/mo later???) COMCAST is charging for the DTA (Digital Terminal Adapter) since I think they have gone to ALL Digital eliminating ALL Analog TV Channels. Obviously, they have a wide variety of Internet Data Rates to chose from.
http://www.comcastauthorizedoffers.com/g/west/xfinity-internet

Some curtent Deals:
http://www.comcastauthorizedoffers.com/g/west/xfinity-tv
http://www.comcast.com/cable-internet-packages.html
http://www.comcastauthorizedoffers.com/g/west/xfinity-bundle-deals

They ALWAYS have a lower Intro Cost...be sure to ask about what the cost is AFTER the Intro period, presuming you sign up for the 24-mo contract (or NOT). If they waffle and wave their hands about not being able to predict the future, ask what OTHER customers are NORMALLY paying for the same services....or ask about it on the SAN FRANCISCO COMCAST thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-local-hdtv-info-reception/793017-san-francisco-ca-comcast-508.html


----------



## ProjectSHO89

You also put the antenna in one of the worst imaginable places for VHF noise- behind the TV- set as well as selecting an antenna that's nearly blind on VHF.


----------



## SFischer1

ProjectSHO89 said:


> You also put the antenna in one of the worst imaginable places for VHF noise- behind the TV- set as well as selecting an antenna that's nearly blind on VHF.


Somebody somewhat local to me had a problem with an antenna in a very similar location.

He could not get 54.1 but could get 54.2, 54.3, 54.4 ...

I blew him off with a "Does Not Compute".

Should that ever really happen the SF Bay OTA forum and mailing list would be flooded with reports.

------------------------------------
My looking up that "toy" antenna has caused me to get targeted ad's for them.   


SHF


----------



## tylerSC

tripleM said:


> I have a flat screen TV mounted inside a kitchen cabinet.
> The antenna is an indoor RCA ANT1400 from Best Buy located behind the vertical 'board' that is used to mount the flat screen inside the cab.
> 
> I get all the OTA networks fantastically - except one - the local NBC affiliate.
> I tried moving antenna all around back there & still can't catch NBC _unless _the TV swings away from inside the cab a bit.
> Strange but when the TV swings out - NBC works.
> But when the TV is pushed back flat against the mounting board inside the cab, NBC signal goes dark.
> 
> The coax seem tights & all other channels come through regardless of position of TV.
> Is this a reception problem or is it hardware?
> 
> 
> My stats are as follows:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e1c6f5e29e2ce5


RF12 is VHF and more subject to noise and interference from the TV itself. And those flat panel antennas are not designed to receive VHF. I think an HDTVa antenna from HHG would work better, as it has rabbit ears which should receive VHF-12, as well as a UHF element for the other channels. At any rate, you will need rabbit ears for WWBT at the very least. Although an outside antenna such as the HBU-22 would be even better.


----------



## deltaguy

tripleM said:


> I have a flat screen TV mounted inside a kitchen cabinet.
> The antenna is an indoor RCA ANT1400 from Best Buy located behind the vertical 'board' that is used to mount the flat screen inside the cab.
> 
> I get all the OTA networks fantastically - except one - the local NBC affiliate.
> I tried moving antenna all around back there & still can't catch NBC _unless _the TV swings away from inside the cab a bit.
> Strange but when the TV swings out - NBC works.
> But when the TV is pushed back flat against the mounting board inside the cab, NBC signal goes dark.
> 
> The coax seem tights & all other channels come through regardless of position of TV.
> Is this a reception problem or is it hardware?
> 
> 
> My stats are as follows:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e1c6f5e29e2ce5


 Swinging the tv out is blocking interference or multipath. Turning off devices using electricity near the antenna might help. Good Luck.


----------



## tripleM

deltaguy said:


> Swinging the tv out is blocking interference or multipath. Turning off devices using electricity near the antenna might help. Good Luck.


Thanks for the suggestion.
I don't think anything is interfering with it electronically as there is a microwave below the TV location in a separate compartment (cabinet) & I've tested it with no problems.

Last night - I actually pulled the antenna's coax cable towards the back of the TV to give it a bit more slack, then pushed the TV back against the mounting board (which is when the problem occurs regularly) - this time the VHF channel 12.1 retained it's signal - 5 bars out of 5 according to the TV signal meter.

This is leading me to believe, that the coax cable or antenna itself is faulty.

Thoughts?


----------



## deltaguy

tripleM said:


> Thanks for the suggestion.
> I don't think anything is interfering with it electronically as there is a microwave below the TV location in a separate compartment (cabinet) & I've tested it with no problems.
> 
> Last night - I actually pulled the antenna's coax cable towards the back of the TV to give it a bit more slack, then pushed the TV back against the mounting board (which is when the problem occurs regularly) - this time the VHF channel 12.1 retained it's signal - 5 bars out of 5 according to the TV signal meter.
> 
> This is leading me to believe, that the coax cable or antenna itself is faulty.
> 
> Thoughts?


 If 12.1 continues without problems, you're good to go. I wouldn't assume that interference can be ruled out by the microwave not causing a problem. All electrical devices are not created equal.


----------



## ADTech

: said:


> I wouldn't assume that interference can be ruled out by the microwave not causing a problem. All electrical devices are not created equal.



This is correct. Different devices can have spurious emissions at very different frequencies. Such unwanted emissions create interference when they happen to coincide with a desired frequency.

As an example, the microwave in my kitchen interferes with my 4G/LTE wireless connection but never interferes with the 3G (800 MHz) service or reception of any of my OTA UHF signals.


----------



## tripleM

deltaguy said:


> If 12.1 continues without problems, you're good to go. I wouldn't assume that interference can be ruled out by the microwave not causing a problem. All electrical devices are not created equal.


Well now I am back to square one again.

Tried a new antenna& same issue again.swing the mounting arm gets 12.1 to work but pushing it back to put the TV away in the cabinet - stops 12.1 from working.

Something is interfering with it.


----------



## rabbit73

What new antenna did you try?

The manual says:

"Note: The ANT1400 may work well sitting on your TV or other components. However, because electronic components (*like your TV*) can sometimes interfere with the antenna's reception, you might notice an effect on the antenna's 
performance. Likewise, placing the antenna on a metal surface may interfere with reception. If the antenna isn't performing as well as expected, try moving it away from the component or placing it on another surface. Then, re-scan for channels on your TV or converter box."
http://manuals.solidsignal.com/ANT1400_Manual.pdf

I'm very skeptical about claims for an antenna being multi-directional. Notice that CH12 is almost at a right angle from your other channels.

If your tests tell you that the antenna needs to be further away from the TV, then you must believe your test results and go to plan B.

Other posters have told you that CH12 is on VHF, which is more prone to electrical interference, and your all-channel antenna may not perform as well on VHF as it does on UHF. I agree with them.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

: said:


> Something is interfering with it.


Well, duh! You put it right behind the TV and it fails. You move the TV away from the antenna and it works.

This shouldn't be hard to figure out....


----------



## ADTech

Charles Rhodes article on Inter-Band RFI: 

http://www.tvtechnology.com/digital-tv/0148/inter-band-rfi-should-stations-worry/271017

Some of you folks will certainly find this of interest.


----------



## difuse

ADTech said:


> Charles Rhodes article on Inter-Band RFI:
> 
> http://www.tvtechnology.com/digital-tv/0148/inter-band-rfi-should-stations-worry/271017
> 
> Some of you folks will certainly find this of interest.


I did. I have a comment. RF frequencies intersect, whether there are filters on a receiver or not. Filters can prevent some reception problems, but cannot stop RF from intersecting.


----------



## holl_ands

*Vertically Stacked Hourglass Antennas - No Reflector:*

Uploaded 4nec2 Results for two Vertically Stacked Hourglass Antennas (No Reflectors) with Stacking Distance Optimized for best Raw Gain, using nikiml's Python Optimization Scripts:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/stacked/verticallystackeduhf/vertstackuhfhourglassloopnorefl

An UHF Hourglass-Loop has a VERY WIDE Beamwidth of 80-deg at 470 MHz, decreasing to 70-deg at 698 MHz. Vertically Stacked, remains 80-deg at 470 MHz, decreasing to 60-deg at 698 MHz (to within 10-deg resolution).

Two versions were presented, the first presumes the use of an RF Combiner attached
to Antenna Feedpoints using Baluns & Equal Length Cables. The second avoids 0.5-1.5+ dB Loss in RF Combiner by using an Optimized Vertical Interconnection Harness.

a) RF Combiner: Vertical Stacking (Center-Center), VD = 18-in provides Max Raw Gain per Optimizer.

UHF Raw Gain = 7.6 to 9.6 dBi and SWR (300-ohms) under 1.9.

=====================================
b) Holl_ands Vertical Harness (HVH): Vertical Stacking (Center-Center), VD = 24.75-in provides Max Raw Gain per Optimizer. See 4nec2 File for all Dimensions, including Re-Optimized Hourglass-Loop sizes.

UHF Raw Gain FORWARD = 7.8 to 9.7 dBi, F/B & F/R Ratio has small (1.3 dB) increase at high frequencies (just -0.1 dB at low frequencies), and SWR (300-ohms) under 2.1. 

Hence HVH provides about the SAME performance as RF Combiner Mod, but WITHOUT the RF Combiner Loss.

Dimensions of HVH wires were determined using nikiml's Python Optimization Scripts:
VS = 12.25-in = Vertical Stacking Distance (Center-To-Center).
VS/2 = 6.125-in, Length of Harness wires from Feedpoint to Center of each Hourglass-Loop.
Diagonal = 3.25-in, Length from Harness Wires to each Hourglass-Loop Feedpoint.
Hw = 0.80-in (may round to 0.75-in),
Xh = -3.25-in = Harness X-Axis Separation from Hourglass-Loops.
*TOTAL HARNESS WIRE LENGTH (2 required) = 19.75-in = 2x6.125+2x3.25+2x0.5 (for eyelets)*










*RAW GAIN FORWARD (F/B & F/R NOT CALCULATED):*









*RAW GAIN TO REVERSE:*


----------



## holl_ands

*Vertically Stacked Hourglass Antennas + 15 Reflector Rods:*

Uploaded 4nec2 Results for two Vertically Stacked Hourglass Antennas, with 15 Reflector Rods:where nikiml's Python Optimization Scripts were used to Optimize dimensions of the HVH (Hollands Vertical Harness) and Separation between Hourglass-Loops:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/stacked/verticallystackeduhf/vstackuhfhourglassloop15rr

UHF Raw Gain = 12.6 to 13.7 dBi, F/B & F/R Ratio Min = 18.3 dB and SWR (300-ohms) under 2.8.
Beamwidth = 60-degrees was CONSTANT vs Frequency.

Dimensions of HVH wires were determined using nikiml's Python Optimization Scripts:
VS = VS=17.5-in = Vertical Stacking Distance (Center-To-Center).
VS/2 = 8.75-in, Length of Harness wires from Feedpoint to Center of each Hourglass-Loop.
Diagonal = 1.0-in, Length from Harness Wires to each Hourglass-Loop Feedpoint.
Hw = 1.125-in (may round to 1.5-in),
Xh = -0.5-in = Harness X-Axis Separation from Hourglass-Loops.
*TOTAL HARNESS WIRE LENGTH (2 required) = 20.5-in = 2x8.75+2x1.0+2x0.5 (for eyelets)*


----------



## holl_ands

*Horiz-Stack UHF Hourglass-Loop - NO Refl

*Horizontally Stacked UHF Hourglass-Loops (NO Reflectors) analyzed using 4nec2.
All dimensions were determined using nikiml's Python Optimization Scripts:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/sta...duhfantennas/horizstackuhfhourglassloopnorefl

An UHF Hourglass-Loop has a VERY WIDE Beamwidth of 80-deg at 470 MHz, decreasing to 70-deg at 698 MHz. Horizontally Stacked, it drops to 40-deg at 470 MHz, and 30-deg at 698 MHz (to within 10-deg resolution).

Two versions are presented here, the first presumes the use of an RF Combiner attached
to Antenna Feedpoints using Baluns & Equal Length Cables. The second avoids 0.5-1.5+ dB Loss
in RF Combiner by using an Optimized Horizontal Interconnection Harness.

a) RF Combiner: Horizontal Stacking (Center-Center), HD = 16-in provides Max Raw Gain per Optimizer.
UHF Raw Gain = 7.8 to 9.8 to 9.5 dBi and (300-ohms) under 1.9.

=====================================
b) Holl_ands Horizontal Harness (HHH): Interconnection using HHH rather than RF Combiner, otherwise ALL Dimensions are the SAME as the above Model.

Dimensions of HHH wires were determined using nikiml's Python Optimization Scripts:
HD = 16.0-in = Horizontal Stacking Distance (Center-To-Center).
HD/2 = 8.0-in, Length of Harness wires from Feedpoint to Center of each Hourglass-Loop.
Diagonal = 4.0-in, Length from Harness Wires to each Hourglass-Loop Feedpoint.
Hw = 1.43-in (may round to 1.5-in),
Xh = -3.75-in = X-Axis Separation between Harness Wires and Hourglass-Loops.
*TOTAL HARNESS WIRE LENGTH (2 required) = 25-in = 2x8.0+2x4.0+2x0.5 (for eyelet)*

UHF Raw Gain = 8.6 to 10.1 dBi, F/B and F/R Ratio = 3.5 to 1.8 dB and (300-ohms) under 1.9.

Note that HHH acts somewhat as a REFLECTOR, increasing Raw Gain in the Forward direction, providing significantly MORE Gain than RF Combiner Model above....and NO LOSS due to Combiner.


----------



## holl_ands

*Horiz-Stack UHF Hourglass-Loop + 15 Reflector Rods

*Horizontally Stacked UHF Hourglass-Loops + 15 Reflector Rods analyzed using 4nec2, where nikiml's Python Optimization Scripts were used to Optimize dimensions of the HHH (Hollands Horizontal Harness) and Separation between Hourglass-Loops. Alternatively, Sidelobes would be minimized with minimum Separation:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/sta...keduhfantennas/horizstackuhfhourglasslooprefl

UHF Raw Gain = 12.6 +/- 0.1 dBi is VERY FLAT, F/B & F/R Ratio Min = 16.5 dB
and SWR (300-ohms) under 2.7.

Dimensions of HHH wires were determined using nikiml's Python Optimization Scripts:
HD/2 = 14.5-in, Length of Harness wires from Feedpoint to Center of each Hourglass-Loop.
Diagonal = 4.5-in, Length from Harness Wires to each Hourglass-Loop Feedpoint.
Hw = 1.875-in, Separation between Harness Wires.
Xh = -4.25 = X-Axis Separation between Harness Wires and Hourglass-Loops.
*TOTAL HARNESS WIRE LENGTH (2 required) = 39-in = 2x14.5+2x4.5+2x0.5 (for eyelet)*


----------



## holl_ands

*UHF Quad-Trapezoid-Loop - NO Reflector:

*UHF Quad-Trapezoid-Loop (NO Reflector) Antenna analyzed using 4nec2, formed by adding outer parts of Chireix 2-Square to an Hourglass-Loop. All dimensions determined using nikiml's Optimization Scripts:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/uhfquadtrapezoidloop

UHF Raw Gain = 6.7 to 8.4 to 7.8 dBi and SWR (300-ohms) under 1.8.
*Note Very Wide 70-60 degree Beamwidth.

*




























*
Beamwidth = 60-degrees at 698 MHz, you won't see THAT in a 4-Bay Bowtie:
*


----------



## holl_ands

*UHF Quad-Trapezoid-Loop - 15 Reflector Rods:

*UHF Quad-Trapezoid-Loop with 15 Reflector Rods analyzed using 4nec2, formed by adding outer parts of Chireix 2-Square to an Hourglass-Loop. All dimensions determined using nikiml's Optimization Scripts:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/uhfquadtrapezoidloop

UHF Raw Gain = 10.1 to 11.8 dBi, F/B & F/R Ratio Min =19.2 dB and SWR (300-ohms) under 2.7.
*Note VERY WIDE BANDWIDTH, 60-degrees ALL across the UHF Band and the VERY DEEP
49+ dB Notch directly to the Rear.*

Clearly it wouldn't hurt to add another pair (or two or three) of Reflector Rods to push the F/R Ratio even higher....which I plan to do in the near future...but for now I'm working on some Apples-To-Apples Comparisons for Wide Beamwidth alternatives....




























*Beamwidth=60-degrees at 698 MHz, you won't see THAT in a 4-Bay Bowtie:*


----------



## holl_ands

*UHF Quad-Trapezoid-Loop + 2xBars - No Reflector:

*UHF Quad-Trapezoid-Loop + 2 Bar Elements (No Reflector) analyzed using 4nec2. Formed by adding outer parts of Chireix 2-Square Antenna to an Hourglass-Loop. All dimensions determined using nikiml's Optimization Scripts:

UHF Raw Gain = 6.6 to 9.4 dBi, SWR (300-ohms) under 1.8 and *Beamwidth = 80 to 50-degrees.

*



























*
BEAMWIDTH = 50-DEGREES AT 698 MHZ:*


----------



## holl_ands

*UHF Quad-Trapezoid-Loop + 2xBars - 15 Reflector Rods:

*UHF Quad-Trapezoid-Loop + 2 Bar Elements with 15 Reflector Rods analyzed using 4nec2. Formed by adding outer parts of Chireix 2-Square Antenna to an Hourglass-Loop. All dimensions determined using nikiml's Optimization Scripts:

UHF Raw Gain = 11.4 to 12.6 to 11.1 dBi, F/B & F/R Ratio Min = 18.1 dB and SWR (300-ohms) under 2.5.
*Note 60-50 degree Beamwidth and EXTREMELY DEEP 64+ dB Notch directly to Rear.*

Again, it wouldn't hurt to add another pair (or two or three) of Reflector Rods to push the F/R Ratio even higher....which I plan to do in the near future...but for now I'm working on some Apples-To-Apples Comparisons for Wide Beamwidth alternatives....










*NOTE GOOD GAIN ON LOWER CHANNELS, BUT AT EXPENSE OF ROLL-OFF ON HIGHEST CHANNELS:*

















*
BEAMWIDTH = 50-DEGREES AT 698 MHZ:*


----------



## Larry Kenney

I'm sure it's probably in these 542 pages of information somewhere, but it would take me days to find it. I was wondering if anyone had done a side by side comparison of the 91XG and the CM4228. I know that the 91XG has a much narrower beam than the 4228, but I'm more interested on gain. I have a 4228 and there are a few stations that are just a dB or two below the cliff edge that would be nice to receive. Would the 91XG possibly make this happen?

Thanks
Larry
SF


----------



## rabbit73

It might make it happen. The gain curves of those two antennas are not flat, so a lot depends upon the frequency of the needed channels. What RF channels do you need?
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/comparing.html

I can't find your tvfool report.

It is possible to make a coaxial halfwave balun for the 91XG that replaces its normal balun. The halfwave balun is a narrowband device _in comparison to_ a 4:1 ferrite balun which is designed to cover the VHF and UHF TV bands.
But, if you cut it for the center of the UHF band, it will outperform the ferrite balun for the whole band. However, if you are interested in only the low or high end of the UHF band, you should cut it for that end to reduce the balun loss to a minimum.

Another approach would be to modify your 4228. It is possible to combine the two 4-bay antennas in a different manner than the original. You could use two 4:1 ferrite baluns with a splitter as a combiner, two 4:1 halfwave baluns with a low-loss combiner, or a special holl_ands harness:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=2185874&postcount=248


----------



## Larry Kenney

rabbit73 said:


> It might make it happen. The gain curves of those two antennas are not flat, so a lot depends upon the frequency of the needed channels. What RF channels do you need?
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/comparing.html
> 
> I can't find your tvfool report.
> 
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=2185874&postcount=248


Thanks for the response, Rabbit. I wrote a response here earlier, but the server got hung up and it never got saved, so I'll try again.

Thanks for the link to the antenna comparison graph. It looks like the 91XG does better above channel 36, while the 4228 appears to be better below 36. I see that there's no big difference in gain overall.

Here's my TVFool report:

*http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e1c67a311959ac
*
The channels I don't receive are mixed in with those I do receive. I receive every station on the TVFool list down through KVIE 9, but also receive KMAX 21, KQCA 46, and KEMO 32 all the time with good signals. KOVR 25, KCRA 35 and KAXT 42 are sometimes there, but aren't reliable. Those three plus KTFK 26 and KSPX 48 are the ones I'd like to pull in that are mostly just below the cliff edge, usually at around 13 to 15 dB. 

Three are below the channel 36 cross-over for the two antennas, two are above 36, so I don't think changing from the 4228 to the 91XG will be worth the time and money involved. 

I'd love to use a pre-amp, but as you can see from the TVFool list, I'm really close to Sutro Tower and the 11 stations transmitting from up there. The tower is less than a mile from here. While the main lobes go over us, those signals are still really strong and I haven't found a preamp that's not overloaded by them.

Looks like what I've got is the best I can do.

Thanks again for your input.

Larry
SF


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> It is possible to make a halfwave balun for the 91XG that replaces its normal balun. The halfwave balun might have less loss. Since it is a narrowband device, it needs to be cut for the frequency of the weakest channel. ]


The 300 ohm coaxial balun is a broadband device. See a modeled plot for an FM version here:

http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/balun.htm

Scroll down to 300 ohm Balun.


I'm using a UHF version on my 91XGs. I built two of them, connected them back to back, measured the insertion loss and divide by 2. The highest loss was only around 0.2 dB, much better than either the ferrite balun or the PC balun, both of which measured around 1 dB max loss.


----------



## rabbit73

Larry:

Thanks for the tvfool report. You certainly are in overload territory.

The only way I can think of for you to be able to receive one of those weak stations would be to have an antenna dedicated to that channel with a TinLee single channel bandpass filter for that channel and a preamp. Your best chance would be with KOVR; KCRA and KAXT are weaker and have co-channel and adjacent channel interference.

The reason I suggested a modification to your CM4228 is because its combining harness is known to have high losses. The antenna doesn't deliver anything near the hoped for 3 dB gain over one 4-bay antenna.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/cm4228.html

The 4228 is a collinear array. The ARRL Antenna Book has this to say about them:

"Large broadside collinear antennas can be checked for excessive phasing-line losses by comparing the gain computed from the radiation patterns with the direct-measured gain. It seems paradoxical, but it is indeed possible to build a large array with a very narrow beamwidth indicating high gain, but actually having very low gain because of losses in the feed distribution system."


----------



## rabbit73

*Brian Beezley K6STI and the coaxial balun*

Chuck:

Thanks for the photos of your low-loss baluns. I see that, as a precaution, you have added ferrite beads to your coax balun. Do you have any photos of your UHF combiner?

I can't get that link to Brian to work:
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/balun.htm

I read that he has retired from ham radio and computer modeling.
http://hamwaves.com/antennas/modelling.html

I think he got fed up with the aggravations caused by other people when he was trying to do what he loved best. That often happens to creative people, and Brian is very creative.

Brian did this:










If you are going for the last 0.5 dB, the loss curve doesn't look very flat to me. It shows a loss of 0.5 dB at each end of the UHF band, when the half-wave balun is cut for the center of the band. The balun just covers the band while keeping the loss from being greater than 0.5 dB. I consider that to be narrowband when compared to the ferrite VHF/UHF balun that it replaces.

I edited my description of a half-wave coaxial balun in post 16245 to Larry. I hope that you will find it more accurate.


----------



## holl_ands

*Hi-VHF Goalkeeper Quad-Trapezoid+Spurs - Quasi-Omni:

*I uploaded 4nec2 analysis for the Hi-VHF Goalkeeper, a Quasi-Omni [accidental] variation of the Quad-Trapezoid+Spurs, assuming QICT (Quarter-Inch Copper Tubing). By accident, because I noticed one with favorable properties for a quite different application when looking at the Optimizer's early best*.***.nec Files for the above NO Reflector Quad-Trap.

Hi-VHF Raw Gain = 2.1 to 2.9 dBi (Forward & Rear) and SWR (300-ohms) under 1.8 (Excellent). Beamwidth = 100-110 degrees. [For QICT, could substitute AWG10 with higher SWR.]

Provides Bi-Directional Pattern firmly aligned along the X-Axis with wide Beamwidth and NULLs to the sides. Although Horizontally Polarized, it also provides both Right-Hand and Left-Hand Circular Polarization, but with only 1 dB LHCP suppression.

I also added an FM version to the Omni/Quasi-Omni webpage for comparison purposes:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/omni/fmgoalkeeperquadtrapezoidspurs

Although Folded Vertical Dipole provides TRUE Omni coverage for Vertically Polarized signals, ALL of the "Quasi-Omni's" designed for Horizontal Polarization are either Bi-Directional....or have very irregular Patterns. The Goalkeeper is unusual, providing a wide Beamwidth, a reasonable amount of POSITIVE Gain on ALL frequencies (at least Forward and to Rear) and Excellent SWR....a combination that is very rare.

PS: When an Antenna's Beamwidth is less than 90-degrees, I would simply call it a Bi-Directional Antenna...like most any other Antenna without a Reflector. And when a Bi-Directional Antenna's Beamwidth is 90-degrees or more, I call it a "Quasi-Omni" Antenna....like commercial FM Turnstiles....that are far from a TRUE OMNI with 360 degrees of useful azimuthal coverage.

BTW: With a tip of the hat to some would-be FIFA players, I came up with the full name: "Mindless Goalkeeper"....after rejecting the tasteless "Headless Goalkeeper".....or "Jumping Jacks"....or (my wife's idea) "Up Against The Wall and Spread 'Em".



















*AZIMUTHAL PATTERN (Note Negligible response to Vertical Polarization):*









*CIRCULAR POLARIZATION PATTERN:*


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> Chuck:
> 
> Thanks for the photos of your low-loss baluns.
> 
> I can't get that link to Brian to work:
> 
> http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/balun.htm
> 
> I read that he has retired from ham radio and computer modeling.
> http://hamwaves.com/antennas/modelling.html
> 
> I did find these two posts by Brian:
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=868122&postcount=30
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=874362&postcount=59
> 
> If you are going for the last 0.5 dB, those loss curves don't look very flat to me.
> 
> You have to login and refresh to make the images show in a post on that forum.
> 
> I edited my description of a halfwave coaxial balun in post #16245 to Larry. I hope that you will find it more accurate.


I'm not a member there so I can't see the images. I'm not having any trouble with the link I posted. I'm not saying that the coax baluns are flat. I'm saying they are much lower loss than either the ferrite or PCB balun.


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> Larry:
> 
> Thanks for the tvfool report. You certainly are in overload territory.


You would think that was the case and I thought so too until I went to Larry's place and measured his signals on my spectrum analyzer. His signals are in the same strength range as mine and I'm 54 miles and 2 edges from the transmitters. The key was the fact that he is 18.5 degrees below the main lobe so the ERP is reduced by a huge factor.

Attached is a spaghetti graph where I took the vertical elevation patterns from the applications filed by the stations with the FCC to get their construction permits for their post transition stations. The graphs didn't go down to 18.5 degrees so I extrapolated the graph. At that angle the field strength averages only 1%. See attachment. That means he's only seeing tens to a few hundred watts ERP from Sutro Tower. Of course that is plenty of power at 3/4 mile LOS! It's actually a good deal because it prevents overload. The bad part is that when you're way off the main lobe, the ERP can vary greatly with frequency. The second image is KRON, Larry's strongest UHF station. The 3rd image is KCSM, KTVU and KBCW on RF 43 - 45. Those ugly signals are caused by being so far below the main lobe.

For comparison I attached an image of KOVR received here. It's in the same range as Larry's signals. I actually do have an overload problem and it is KUVS shown in the final image. That's 60KW ERP 14 miles LOS. I have to use a 25 dB notch filter in front of the TV prevent overload. It's about 25 dB stronger than anything Larry is seeing.

The problem with living in San Francisco that I don't have is the tremendous number of strong out of band transmitters. That's likely the real overload problem, not the TV transmitters.


----------



## Larry Kenney

There is definitely a lot of extraneous RF floating around here! On my HD HomeRun receivers, there's always a signal of 22% or higher on the channels with no 8vsb signals. Channels 59, 60 and 61 have signals of 95 to 100% no matter what antenna I select and there are no TV signals on those channels.

Many people have been surprised that I'm able to receive as many stations as I do, and some of them are adjacent to channels with signals from Sutro Tower. While I'm sure adjacent channel signals are affecting my reception, I'm getting 20+ dB SNR signals on stations 62-65 miles away that are adjacent to Sutro stations. Examples:
KEMO 32 Mt. St. Helena 65 miles - KMTP 33 Sutro
KFSF 34 Sutro - KCRA 35 Walnut Grove 62 miles
KBCW 45 Sutro - KQCA 46 Walnut Grove 62 miles - KTLN 47 Novato 30 miles

I do have problems with KCRA for a different reason. KGO's translator, 35 miles SW of here, is also on channel 35. When KGO's signal is down, I get KCRA. When KGO's signal is up, KCRA drops below the cliff edge. Prior to the translator coming on the air I received KCRA in the 20 to 22 dB range.

Looking at the various possibilities for increasing my distant signals you guys have mentioned, I don't think the little increased gain will be worth the time and money I'll have to spend, so I'm just going to leave things as they are. Thanks for your input. It's been an interesting discussion!

Those interested in seeing my antennas can check out the link below.

Larry
San Francisco


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> Brian did this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are going for the last 0.5 dB, the loss curve doesn't look very flat to me. It shows a loss of 0.5 dB at each end of the UHF band, when the half-wave balun is cut for the center of the band. The balun just covers the band while keeping the loss from being greater than 0.5 dB. I consider that to be narrowband when compared to the ferrite VHF/UHF balun that it replaces.


I guess it depends on what world you come from. Narrowband to me is part of one ham band or one TV channel. The entire UHF TV band is broadband to me. 

I don't know if that model used 93 ohm coax for the 1/2 wave portion or 75 ohm coax. Attached are tests I ran here. All tests are run with two baluns back to back which is the only way I can measure 75 ohm to 300 ohm transformers. Divide the measurement by 2 for one transformer.

The first trace is the old ferrite transformers used on the 91XG. The loss runs about 1.1 dB to 1.8 dB per transformer.

The second trace is the new PCB balun used on the 91XG. The loss runs about 1.4 dB to 0.5 dB.

The third trace is the coax balun I made. The 1/2 wave section is made with Beldon 9269. The length is cut for 585 MHz. The loss runs from about 0.6 to 0.1 dB.

Clearly the coax balun is better than either of the other baluns.

The fourth trace I expanded the sweep to 800 MHz. Using the 228 MHz (UHF TV band width) with the lowest loss, the endpoints are about 0.32 dB loss per balun. Lengthening the 1/2 wave section about 1/2" should move the curve down enough to give you 1/3 dB across the UHF band. A large section of the band is < 0.1 dB loss.


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> Chuck:
> 
> Thanks for the photos of your low-loss baluns. I see that, as a precaution, you have added ferrite beads to your coax balun. Do you have any photos of your UHF combiner?


Here's a photo of one combiner I made. It uses a 1/4 wave matching section (3.3" of 50 ohm coax). It's close to 0 dB loss.


----------



## rabbit73

Chuck:

Thanks for going to all that trouble to test four types of baluns and show us the results. I really appreciate it. Your tests clearly show the superior performance of the coaxial balun.

I don't understand why Brian did a simulation for 75 ohms and then built a balun to test using 93 ohm RG62. Here is his sim:










"I decided to build a balun to validate the model. I used 93-ohm coax because it should have only 0.24 dB loss at the band edges and I just happen to have some around. In fact, I located an 8.5" piece, which is what I calculate the length should be for 585 MHz, the arithmetic center of the 470-700 MHz band."

Thanks also for the photo of your low-loss combiner. I added that request later and didn't know if you saw it. I see that you have used an enclosure to protect it from the weather. I am wondering about the f connector on the end of the RG223 Belden 9273. Its diameter is about 0.212" but RG6 is about 0.270." How did you get the connector to the preamp to fit the smaller diameter cable?


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> "I decided to build a balun to validate the model. I used 93-ohm coax because it should have only 0.24 dB loss at the band edges and I just happen to have some around. In fact, I located an 8.5" piece, which is what I calculate the length should be for 585 MHz, the arithmetic center of the 470-700 MHz band."
> 
> Thanks also for the photo of your low-loss combiner. I added that request later and didn't know if you saw it. I see that you have used an enclosure to protect it from the weather. I am wondering about the f connector on the end of the RG223 Belden 9273. Its diameter is about 0.212" but RG6 is about 0.270." How did you get the connector to the preamp to fit the smaller diameter cable?



So I measured about .1 dB more than he modeled for 93 ohm cable. My measurement includes 8" of 75 ohm coax and a connector. The ideal impedance is 150 ohms but I don't think any such cable exists.

I did the best I could to get an F connector onto RG-223. I used just one of the shields and split the jacket into quarters, pushed on the RG-59 sized connector, crimped the ring and used a piece of heat shrink tubing to cover it.


----------



## rabbit73

Oh, of course. An F connector for RG-59 instead of one for RG-6; 0.240" is closer. Thanks.


----------



## bernieoc

Any thoughts appreciated.
1. Two TV's 50' from amped 4 way house splitter
2. Run one cable from splitter and split again at destination to the two TV's
or
3. Run two individual cables to the TV's from the main splitter using two outlets on main splitter.
or
4. Split 2 way close to main splitter and run two cables to TV's
or
5. One larger splitter (5) with separate cables to all

Thanks for any guidance.
Bernieoc


----------



## Calaveras

bernieoc said:


> Any thoughts appreciated.
> 1. Two TV's 50' from amped 4 way house splitter
> 2. Run one cable from splitter and split again at destination to the two TV's
> or
> 3. Run two individual cables to the TV's from the main splitter using two outlets on main splitter.
> or
> 4. Split 2 way close to main splitter and run two cables to TV's
> or
> 5. One larger splitter (5) with separate cables to all
> 
> Thanks for any guidance.
> Bernieoc


I choose #3 . #2 and #4 are the same thing. I'm unclear on one thing. #1 says you have two TVs. #5 says you five TVs. Which one is it?


----------



## bernieoc

Current setup is 4 TV's. On one of them (the one in question) I would like to have two DVR's (CM DVR+ and DTV Pal DVR - each with two tuners.
Thanks for your response.


----------



## holl_ands

Per HDTVPrimer website model, Silver Sensor has *Raw Gain ~ 7 dBi* across entire UHF Band....which is more than a 2-Bay Bowtie (e.g. Mohu Leaf, WallTenna) and much more than a simple Loop used with most Rabbit-Ear Antennas. If you look at the detailed Azimuthal Pattern chart for the Silver Sensor, you'll also see that it has a very broad Beamwidth with significant suppression of Multipath coming in from the rear:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/comparing.html

For more Gain, you're gonna need a bigger Boat....err Antenna.....
However, a higher Gain Antenna also means a narrower Beamwidth, which means it will have to be more carefully pointed toward signal sources. Perhaps located in the top of a convenient closet....

*FF4, Free-Form 4-Bay Bowtie provides UHF Raw Gain = 9.7 to 12.6 dBi* in a simple DIY project that can be as easy as AWG10 wire or even metallic or aluminized tape on Cardboard (perhaps hidden behind a Picture if the direction to stations permits). It also provides *Hi-VHF Raw Gain = 3.5 dBi*, with only a slightly higher than desirable SWR:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bay/uhffreeform4baybowtienorefl

If you have room for it, adding a Reflector to the FF4 can increase Gain by about 3 dB, with much more suppression of Multipath from the rear. The only Reflector I've modeled for the FF4 is a HUGE Double Angled Reflector:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl/uhffreeform4baydblanglreflopt

For a "flatter" FF4, you might want to consider using a 36"Hx36"W FLAT Reflector 5.5-inches away from the Bowties, made from either a piece of Cardboard covered in Aluminum Foil or METAL "Mesh Hardware Cloth" which should be available in your local hardware store, such as:
http://www.midlandhardware.com/256958.html?gclid=CJv69961icACFUs1aQodHGYALA#.U-fGdGOc6jM

*UHF Quad Trapezoid Loop with 15 Reflector Rods* provides *UHF Raw Gain = 10.1 to 11.8*. [Without RR's Gain isn't much higher than Silver Sensor.] This SIMPLE DIY project is useful when the station directions make it difficult to mount the antenna on a wall, since it has a very wide Beamwidth of 60+ degrees all across the UHF Band. It also provide *Hi-VHF **Raw Gain ~ 6 dBi*, but with excessive SWR that may *or may not) limit it's usefulness to strong local signals. Instead of 15 Reflector Rods (RR), you could use the same overall size Alum. Foil or Metal Mesh Hardware Cloth:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/uhfquadtrapezoidloop


----------



## Don_H

Holl, for the FF4 feed point, how does the balun attach. Should the balun wires be spread diagonally to attach, or should the balun wires make a sharp right angle?

Would it be possible to maximize the peak gain for ch 35?


----------



## Don_H

Maintaining no reflector, can a narod be added to enhance the gain and lower the swr for high vhf?


----------



## holl_ands

Don_H said:


> Holl, for the FF4 feed point, how does the balun attach. Should the balun wires be spread diagonally to attach, or should the balun wires make a sharp right angle?
> 
> Would it be possible to maximize the peak gain for ch 35?


Doesn't really matter how you route the Balun Wires...

The max (or any other frequency point) for ANY Antenna can be Rescaled to another Frequency by multiplying ALL Dimensions by the Rescale Factor = Current Frequency / New Frequency.
Hence moving the Max Gain to a LOWER Frequency requires INCREASING all dimensions....and vice versa. When making drastic frequency changes, the Wire Size should also be changed according to the Rescale Factor.....but for changes within the same TV Band, it's okay to use the same Wire Size.


----------



## Don_H

Ok, ty much for the info


----------



## firemantom26

I currently have been using a dual vertically stacked 4228 and I am looking to replace it with another antenna. I see the replacement for it is the 4228HD. I am not sure that that antenna can be stacked.
I was wondering what the best options would be
Choice 1 Stack a 4228HD
Choice 2 CM-3020
Choice 3 CM- 5020
Most of my viewing is on UHF, very little on VHF only a couple
I am also concerned with the weight of a stacked 4228HD
Thank You


----------



## SFischer1

*Please Include a Link to your TVFool Report*

Hi,

Zip 43952 has stations in several directions.

Please reply with your TVFool report and what stations / Networks you are interested in.

And the direction your current antenna is pointed. Do you have a rotor? Height of antenna would also be useful.

Are you using an amplifier?

*TVFool*
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

Pasting an image is not the same as a link. Here is mine.

Nani's ZIP Code
*http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=d2434989f75b87*

The experts here will then be able to help you better.

Be sure and enter your exact address in to TVFool, I see lots of terrain differences in that zip code.

Your exact address is hidden by TVFool. 

SHF


----------



## firemantom26

SFischer1 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Zip 43952 has stations in several directions.
> 
> Please reply with your TVFool report and what stations / Networks you are interested in.
> 
> And the direction your current antenna is pointed. Do you have a rotor? Height of antenna would also be useful.
> 
> Are you using an amplifier?
> 
> *TVFool*
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29
> 
> Pasting an image is not the same as a link. Here is mine.
> 
> Nani's ZIP Code
> *http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=d2434989f75b87*
> 
> The experts here will then be able to help you better.
> 
> Be sure and enter your exact address in to TVFool, I see lots of terrain differences in that zip code.
> 
> Your exact address is hidden by TVFool.
> 
> SHF


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=d243367f6bb01b
40 foot tower and a preamp

Thank You


----------



## Calaveras

firemantom26 said:


> I currently have been using a dual vertically stacked 4228 and I am looking to replace it with another antenna. I see the replacement for it is the 4228HD. I am not sure that that antenna can be stacked.
> I was wondering what the best options would be
> Choice 1 Stack a 4228HD
> Choice 2 CM-3020
> Choice 3 CM- 5020
> Most of my viewing is on UHF, very little on VHF only a couple
> I am also concerned with the weight of a stacked 4228HD
> Thank You


I would suggest a pair of 91XGs. Works great for me and my signals are weaker, farther away than yours and 2 edges. See my avatar. You can add a separate VHF antenna if you want.


----------



## firemantom26

Looks great 


Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## naednek

Here's the deal...



I have a MOHU leaf. Its the 30 mile range which is more than enough for the channels I need. I also have the Hauppage WINTV 2255 installed on my HTPC. My first test before mounting the antennae, I had signal to almost anything in range other than KVIE station, which sucked because that was my solution for the kid shows....

I found I received better reception near the window, so I got a longer coax cable and got it installed. I was able to get the same signal as before. 

While browsing channels I eventually started dropping signal, and now I can't pull down any station. I"ve ran the signal setup on WMC as well as the setup program on the WINTV software and still nothing. 

What am I doing wrong?

I'm tempted to get an outdoor attenae and mount it to the house.

This is my coverage. Any ideas?

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=d243691389b81d


----------



## rdcollns

Naednek, I had a similar problem with an attic antenna, then one day I remembered that my issues started when they re-sided a tiny part of our house and they put foil faced insulation underneath. It was weird because I didn't lose the stations all at once, but one at a time. I tried everything to get our reception back. What finally worked was placing an old metal window screen directly behind the antenna. No scientific reason I am aware of, I just tried anything I could imagine and that screen happened to be in the attic.


----------



## tylerSC

Those Mohu and similar Leaf style antennas have reception limitations. Maybe add an inline amp such as Winegard LNA-100 or the Sears/Kmart Alphaline version and see if that helps. But if you upgrade the antenna, consider a Clearstream 2V from Walmart or an Antennacraft HBU-22. And possibly the inline amp.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

> I'm tempted to get an outdoor attenae and mount it to the house.


Do that, it will solve a LOT of problems if properly selected and installed.


----------



## Calaveras

naednek said:


> Here's the deal...
> 
> 
> 
> I have a MOHU leaf. Its the 30 mile range which is more than enough for the channels I need. I also have the Hauppage WINTV 2255 installed on my HTPC. My first test before mounting the antennae, I had signal to almost anything in range other than KVIE station, which sucked because that was my solution for the kid shows....
> 
> I found I received better reception near the window, so I got a longer coax cable and got it installed. I was able to get the same signal as before.
> 
> While browsing channels I eventually started dropping signal, and now I can't pull down any station. I"ve ran the signal setup on WMC as well as the setup program on the WINTV software and still nothing.
> 
> What am I doing wrong?
> 
> I'm tempted to get an outdoor attenae and mount it to the house.
> 
> This is my coverage. Any ideas?
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=d243691389b81d



If you're not receiving any stations at all something must have happened to the antenna or coax. You're in a very good location for the Walnut Grove stations and your TV Fool report shows you should be able to receive many other stations too. Indoor antennas can be problematic under any signal conditions so an outdoor antenna is always preferred. A small outdoor antenna like the ANT751 should work well for you. No preamp necessary. 

I'd suggest posting further questions on the Sacramento OTA thread where there are more people familiar with the area.


----------



## matonanjin

I haven't done a search as this thread is 10 years and 16,000 posts old. But, for reasons explained below, I am thinking about putting a preamp (signal amplifier) in my OTA set-up. 

Any of you much more intelligent people about this subject have recommendations on which one(s) you would recommend? Any one(s) to stay clear of? 

The situation is that I am very close to my local (Omaha) stations so I get a great signal. But I am about 90 miles from some more channels in Sioux City, IA. Yesterday our local Fox affiliate did not carry the Bears game I wanted to watch. But the Sioux City Fox affiliate did. So it was great that I could watch my Bears. But my Magnavox MDR533 DVD recorder/tuner would not display the channel. So I couldn't pause the game/time shift/scroll through commercials. But my TV (Samsung 6600) would tune it in so that I could watch it. Clearly there is a difference in the tuners that is above my understanding.

Not just for the games but this opens up the entire subject of access to more viewing opportunities with a signal boost. And with that the potential using the DVD/tuner.

Any recommendations are appreciated.


----------



## SFischer1

matonanjin said:


> ... Yesterday our local Fox affiliate did not carry the Bears game I wanted to watch. But the Sioux City Fox affiliate did.
> ...


FYI: NFL Maps: Week 6, 2014

http://506sports.com/nfl.php?yr=2014&wk=6

Talk about NFL _*Gerrymandering*_.

---------------------------------

I think that the FCC may have eliminated the non sold out blackout rule.

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/9/30/6872409/nfl-blackout-rule-lifted-fcc 

But nothing may change. 

SHF


----------



## matonanjin

SFischer1 said:


> FYI: NFL Maps: Week 6, 2014
> 
> http://506sports.com/nfl.php?yr=2014&wk=6
> 
> SHF


Thanks, SHF! That map would have been helpful yesterday. but now I know that I can go to it. Thanks again, Ron


----------



## SFischer1

matonanjin said:


> Thanks, SHF! That map would have been helpful yesterday. but now I know that I can go to it. Thanks again, Ron


BTY, posting *a link *to your TVFool report will allow the experts to help you better on the original request.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29



SHF said:


> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-lo...15-san-francisco-ca-ota-377.html#post28169442
> 
> *TVFool authors are fools*
> 
> We need to tell the TVFool authors that something needs to be changed.
> 
> Too many people are not pasting the link.
> 
> Perhaps something like the words I typed a while ago, "Pasting an image of your TVFool results *is not* the same as posting the link because there is additional data available by clicking on links which of course cannot be done on an image". Your exact address will NOT be included.
> 
> "If you would like to share these results with others" is too weak IMHO.


SHF


----------



## howlinrock

Hi,
Novice here and I need some advice and support. I'm going to dump AT&T U verse (Rip) and plan to install a antenna on my roof or attic. Don't know all the components that will make this all happen and I'm looking for advice. I have a been using an A/V receiver Yamaha RX- A 3020 into TV Sharp LC-70C8470U. I also have 2 other TV's in other rooms and they are cabled under the house. What path and components will make this happen into the TV. Do I need a Tuner, Amplified Splitter. What components and Antenna needed ? I'm going to by a DVR and I'm open to any and all suggestions. 


I live in south Napa county in CA. *http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dd2435fb2372d8a*

Thanks in advance 
John


----------



## yilits28

Can someone give me the formula for computing the Total gain,Efficiency, Characteristics Impedance,Directivity,VSWR,Radiation pattern,Reflection coefficient, Power Transmitted and Power Received of a BATWING ANTENNA?please help me


----------



## Calaveras

howlinrock said:


> Hi,
> Novice here and I need some advice and support. I'm going to dump AT&T U verse (Rip) and plan to install a antenna on my roof or attic. Don't know all the components that will make this all happen and I'm looking for advice. I have a been using an A/V receiver Yamaha RX- A 3020 into TV Sharp LC-70C8470U. I also have 2 other TV's in other rooms and they are cabled under the house. What path and components will make this happen into the TV. Do I need a Tuner, Amplified Splitter. What components and Antenna needed ? I'm going to by a DVR and I'm open to any and all suggestions.
> 
> 
> I live in south Napa county in CA. *http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dd2435fb2372d8a*
> 
> Thanks in advance
> John



First off, I'd recommend posting this in the San Francisco OTA thread where more people local to you will see it.

TV Fool shows all the SF stations are very strong and LOS so you shouldn't need the largest antenna just to get those. Even the Winegard HD7694P is probably good enough or something in the Antennacraft HBU series. Unless you have a very old TV they will all have tuners in them. A preamp should not be necessary but a distribution amp like the CM3414 would be helpful for 3 TVs. Use RG-6 coax. Quad shield in unnecessary. An outside antenna is always best but an attic antenna may be good enough for you. The antenna should not be looking into a tree or the side of a building.

Channel Master makes a DVR. I have a TiVo Basic that has 4 tuners in it which is more expensive overall but it works well.


----------



## howlinrock

Calaveras said:


> First off, I'd recommend posting this in the San Francisco OTA thread where more people local to you will see it.
> 
> TV Fool shows all the SF stations are very strong and LOS so you shouldn't need the largest antenna just to get those. Even the Winegard HD7694P is probably good enough or something in the Antennacraft HBU series. Unless you have a very old TV they will all have tuners in them. A preamp should not be necessary but a distribution amp like the CM3414 would be helpful for 3 TVs. Use RG-6 coax. Quad shield in unnecessary. An outside antenna is always best but an attic antenna may be good enough for you. The antenna should not be looking into a tree or the side of a building.
> 
> Channel Master makes a DVR. I have a TiVo Basic that has 4 tuners in it which is more expensive overall but it works well.



Thanks so much for your response and the suggestions. The CM3414 was on my list as necessary. The right antenna is my concern. not to small or big. I have also posted for advice in the SF OTA thread.


----------



## rabbit73

yilits28 said:


> Can someone give me the formula for computing the Total gain,Efficiency, Characteristics Impedance,Directivity,VSWR,Radiation pattern,Reflection coefficient, Power Transmitted and Power Received of a BATWING ANTENNA?please help me


What batwing antenna are you talking about?
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=batwing+antenna

The guys on the DHC forum that do computer modeling of antennas might be able to give you those answers:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=186


----------



## holl_ands

yilits28 said:


> Can someone give me the formula for computing the Total gain,Efficiency, Characteristics Impedance,Directivity,VSWR,Radiation pattern,Reflection coefficient, Power Transmitted and Power Received of a BATWING ANTENNA?please help me


Can you be more specific???? Perhaps it's a variation of one of the fol. BATWING Antennas analyzed using 4nec2:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1004148
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1005063

The late L B Cebik analyzed the BATWING, which MIGHT be on the fol. (OLD & NEW) websites (requires FREE Registration):
http://www.cebik.com [OLD]
http://www.sage-american.com [NEW]


Or perhaps you mean one of the following Antennas, which RESEMBLES a BATWING:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1319268


----------



## yilits28

we used antenna magus software for our simulation but we don't know where the results came from, we need some proof. We need formulas and calculations... please help us?


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Your question is devoid of any content that would be useful in trying to determine what it is you are asking for which leads me to suspect that you simply don't know what you're actually looking for.


----------



## yilits28

We just need to prove the results that we got from the software antenna magus, we need it for our defense in our antenna project. Impedance,VSWR,Refelction Coefficient,Total Gain and wire diameter are some of the formulas we need.


----------



## ctdish

There are several batwing antennas in the world which one are you modeling? You need to provide the make and model of the antenna or at least a detailed physical description. As was pointed out in previous posts your antenna may already have been modeled abd the results published.
John


----------



## rabbit73

yilits28 said:


> We just need to prove the results that we got from the software antenna magus, we need it for our defense in our antenna project. Impedance,VSWR,Refelction Coefficient,Total Gain and wire diameter are some of the formulas we need.


You seem to be unwilling to tell us about your antenna, so you must consider it to be proprietary information.

The only way that I know how to prove your results are:

1. Hire someone to use other antenna design software to confirm your results.

*4nec2 & Other Antenna Design Modeling Software*
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=83772

*4nec2*
*NEC based antenna modeler and optimizer *
*by Arie Voors*
http://www.qsl.net/4nec2/

2. Construct your antenna and have the parameters in question measured at an antenna lab, to include comparison with an existing batwing antenna from a competitor.

https://www.google.com/search?output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=software+antenna+magus&btnK=

http://www.antennamagus.com/ (a South African company)

https://www.cst.com/Content/Media/CST-Antenna-Magus-Flyer.pdf

http://www.antennamagus.com/contact-us.php


----------



## holl_ands

Even SIMPLE Antenna are actually very complicated and do NOT conform to some sort of "algebraic formula(s)" for description of (Horizontal+Vertical=Total) Forward Gain vs Frequency, 3-Dimensional Gain vs Frequency (not just a 2-D Horizontal or Vertical "slice"), Complex & Real Impedance vs Frequency and (where appropriate) Front/Back & Front/Rear Ratios vs Frequency, Beamwidth and Sidelobe Null Depth. And, of course, WIDEBAND Antennas are more complicated than Narrowband Antennas.

As described here, even a SIMPLE Yagi-Uda Antenna defies a closed-form solution:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yagi-Uda_antenna
http://www.sm.rim.or.jp/~ymushiak/sub.yua.charts.htm [Almost all Quarter-Wavelength Dimensions, Just ONE of MANY Charts]
http://www.sm.rim.or.jp/~ymushiak/sub.ire.chart.htm [Folded Dipole]

Note that a presumably "optimized" 3-Element Yagi-Uda (IF nearly ALL dimensions were Quarter-Wavelength) would have a Characteristic Impedance of 28-ohms, which does NOT match very well to the usual 50-ohm Transmitter....and 4:1 Balun does NOT help...although a CAREFULLY designed Folded Dipole Active Element CAN minimize the SWR. Fortunately, modern Optimizers search across MANY different design parameters and find the set of dimensions which provide the "best" OVERALL COMPROMISE against a set of "balanced" performance criteria ("Target Function" in nikiml's Optimizer). 

Mr. Yagi and Mr. Uda (and most other Antenna Designers) actually determined SOME of these performance parameters by constructing and TESTING hundreds if not thousands of Antennas with small changes in the various Dimensions and charting the results to find the "better" set of dimensions, recognizing that there are trade-offs of Gain vs SWR vs F/B & F/R Ratios. They (and others) did this for a small number of Elements...eventually adding a large number of (usually non-optimum) EQUALLY Spaced Directors, as described in fol. National Bureau of Standards (NBS) TN-688 "Yagi Antenna Design", Oct 1976:
http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/451.pdf

Various Software programs for Yagi, LPDA and other Antenna types have used Look-Up-Tables based on the above performance charts to "design" GOOD, but perhaps not OPTIMIZED Dimensions (as we do using 4nec2, nikiml's Scripts and other programs). For a given set of Element Diameters, there are FIVE Variables in a simple 3-Element Yagi Antenna, and 1+ONE additional Variables if ALL additional Directors are the same Length (like 91-XG) and 1+TWO additional Variables if additional Directors are allowed to be different Lengths for even better results.

The only way to verify an existing design or to "find" GOOD...or Optimized Dimensions for a given Antenna type is to use a Simulation Model (like NEC2 Engine within 4nec2 & nikiml Optimizer). Although there are alternative techniques, the most popular is the Method of Moments (MoM) calculation algorithms embedded within NEC2 & NEC4. MoM is an exhaustive process that calculates the effect that each and every small segment in each of the wires affects the mutual impedance coupling to each and every other segment in every other wire, deriving the performance parameters from these calculations.

Fortunately, 4nec2 is FREE and "only" requires the input of a set of "Wire Statements" that define the starting and ending points in X,Y,Z Coordinates....and a few other Environment and Housekeeping statements. The nikiml Optimizer requires one more step: the Optimization Dimensions need to be expressed as SYmbol Variables, rather than numeric X,Y,Z.

My ANTENNA SIMULATIONS link below leads to over 500 4nec2 models analyzed (nearly all TV Broadband), of which about 100 used nikiml's Python Optimization Scripts, so I understand it's become a fairly daunting process to sort through and find a good "example" to start with.

I would recommend UHF HOURGLASS-LOOP as a good SIMPLE 4nec2 and Optimization example, using only THREE SYmbol Variables: Height, Width and Source Gap (aka Length of Balun+Center Wires):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/dipoles/uhfbowties

If appropriate, look at UHF SOLID TRIANGLE BOWTIE as a good 4nec2 and Optimization example using Triangular structures to simulate a SOLID sheet of metal, using only THREE SYmbol Variables: Bow Length, Tine Separation and Feedpoint Separation:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/uhfhourglassloop


----------



## holl_ands

Looking through my 4nec2 files, I finally found 300ohm's BATWING 4nec2 files from way back in late 2009...which I got around to analyzing in late 2010....and now in 2014, I finished them up and uploaded to my imageevent webpage: [At the time I probably intended to try to improve the (too small) Screen Grid version, but never got A-Round-TUIT.]
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/dipoles/uhfbatwingnoreflscreengrid

*a) UHF Batwing - No Reflector*:
UHF Raw Gain = 4.6 to 5.6 to 5.1 dBi and SWR (300-ohms) under 2.1
Raw Gain is FLAT to within +/- 0.5 dB with Excellent SWR.
*
b) UHF Batwing + 16-in H x 12-in W Screen Grid Reflector at 5-in:*
UHF Raw Gain = 8.9 to 9.2 to 7.3 dBi, F/B & F/R Ratio Min = 12.4 dB and SWR (300-ohms) under 2.8.
Raw Gain drops off about 2 dB on higher frequencies with minimally acceptable SWR.
F/B & F/R Ratios should improve with somewhat larger Reflector and 1-in vice 2-in Spacings between Horizontal Wires.

*BATWING, NO REFLECTOR (1 large square = 1.25 inches):*


















*BATWING, 16-in H x 12-in W SCREEN GRID REFLECTOR:*


----------



## SFischer1

*[HDTV-in-SFbay] Interference when DTV sets off*

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-lo...15-san-francisco-ca-ota-378.html#post28351386

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/HDTV-in-SFbay/conversations/messages/30401

SHF


----------



## Stettin

Adding info as requested
Location: Peoria, IL
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dd243d8dc5795e9

I currently have a Mohu Leaf attached to a HDHomerun in a second story bedroom window. I'm connecting the HD Homerun via a powerline ethernet connection. I get most channels except FOX perfectly. FOX will randomly break up to the point I have to resort to Hulu or other sources for my shows. I really need to get the antenna out of the bedroom as it is now a nursery. If the Mohu somehow doesn't get better signal, or is worse, I'll be buying a new "real" attic antenna.

My living room is on the other side of the house. It has a vaulted ceiling and garage & attic on the other side. I'd like to move the Mohu to the attic for height and run coax down the wall and out to my entertainment center where i'll directly attach to my HD Homerun. 

1) Could being in an enclosed attic reduce my reception more than being in a window? I'm assuming I can hang the leaf higher in the attic than I can in my 2nd floor bedroom window.

2) What Ohm rating cable should I use? I've seen 50 and 75. I'm considering using a pre-crimped Male-to-Male and tack on a coupler. Should I just go with a Male-to-Female if I go pre-crimped?

3) If I go with a regular antenna, do I need to do any grounding if it will stay in the attic? could it require a different Ohm rated cable than the Mohu?


Location of antenna: Attic
HTPC: N/A - using HD Homerun (Antenna input, Ethernet output)
Length and type of coax. (Hopefully RG-6): Probably 50Ft RG6
House: In a bit of a dip, wouldn't say valley
Facing which direction? House south facing
Nearby buildings. Other houses, large trees everywhere
Nearby towers: FM radio station 1/2 mile away


The channel I'm having issues with is Fox -- 26.6 miles away


----------



## ctdish

First do yourself and everyone else a favor and read this http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...all-antenna-threads-tvfool-info-1st-post.html
Then post your location and TVFool results.
To answer your questions: 1 yes, 2 75 and need more info, 3 No 75 ohm cable is the standard for TV transmission lines.
John


----------



## Stettin

ctdish said:


> First do yourself and everyone else a favor and read this http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...all-antenna-threads-tvfool-info-1st-post.html
> Then post your location and TVFool results.
> To answer your questions: 1 yes, 2 75 and need more info, 3 No 75 ohm cable is the standard for TV transmission lines.
> John


Sorry for not posting location information, but didn't think it was relevant to my post as it was just about running cables. I'm really close to all but one tower, so figure if moving the Mohu doesn't work, I'll just get a higher end antenna after it. It has to move no matter what, so figured I'd just try out the new location before I make a purchase. I did update my original post though.

I already have a coax coupler so I can plug the Mohu end into the new RG6 cable. Would that reduce the signal in any significant way? If so, I can try to get a cable with a male and female end (as long as it isn't much more expenseive).


----------



## Gooppoiner

Antennacraft HDVIEW360 R Mini-State R Antenna System RF Remote/Direction Memory is latest technology of TV antenna known to me so far. I really did my reasearch before I bought this product .Its best TV antenna I ever had


----------



## Finch85

Hey guys...you all helped me almost a year ago when I first "cut the cord" and went the antenna route. I've been experiencing some issues which I call "blipping". Most of the time the reception is great and we can fully watch a show without any issues. Sometimes though, the video will pixelate and the audio will briefly go out. Now it's not terrible and we might only miss a couple words of what someone said. Not a major issue but it still can be annoying. 

*http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d2c153b4ae53568*

I have the 91XG installed on my garage roof at probably 15-20 feet high. Using the RCA mast mounted preamp and the signal is split to two TVs (splitter with DC block to bedroom tv). It is pointed at 278 deg (that is taking in account the magnetic declination for my area). I used a compass to point the antenna to this bearing. I know tv fool says I should be at 290 deg but 278 deg gives me better reception. 

The living room TV is connected to my TIVO Roamio and the upstairs just has the coax coming from the DC blocked side of the splitter. I've noticed I receive more channels on my upstairs TV than the living room which has the Roamio. Anyway, that's really not the issue.

I've experimented with moving the antenna a little bit to fine tune the signal while using the TIVO's signal meter. All channels I'm receiving at about 60-62%. After I do that, they all appear to be doing well for a while and then they start "blipping again". Looking outside, the wind is not blowing a bit. What would cause me to have great reception part of the day and then experience this? Before I moved the antenna, we were receiving PBS in the mornings but it would go out before the afternoon. Granted, I know the 91XG is not supposed to receive this channel anyway but what changes during the course of the day? 

Here's a pic of where my ANT is pointing. I've tried to point it at the crest of the mountain. 










Thanks
Donnie


----------



## Digital Rules

What channels are giving you problems? What are you using to receive the 2 VHF channels?


----------



## Finch85

I just have the one ANT, the 91XG. It seems to happen to 7 & 10 but it very well might do it to all of them.


----------



## Calaveras

Finch85 said:


> I just have the one ANT, the 91XG. It seems to happen to 7 & 10 but it very well might do it to all of them.



Sounds like your stations are just very marginal. What does the TiVo diagnostic screen show for an SNR when you're having trouble?

If you've never done that with the Roamio go here:

Settings & Messages: Account & System Info: DVR Diagnostics

Then scroll through the screens until you find the tuner that's tuned to the current station and read the SNR from the list.

I don't know how a 91XG can possibly receive WBRA on RF 3. You need a real high/low VHF antenna.


----------



## Digital Rules

Calaveras said:


> I don't know how a 91XG can possibly receive WBRA on RF 3.


I agree. Any problems with channel 13?


----------



## holl_ands

It just means you are experiencing MULTIPATH FADING and you don't have enough FADE MARGIN to accommodate the signal variations....which is perfectly normal, esp. for 1Edge and 2Edge signals.
Going significantly HIGHER will probably help....but a Vertically or Horizontally Stacked PAIR of Antennas will provide the big boost you need for LONG TERM Reliability:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...wnc-looking-serious-antenna.html#post31408857

FADE MARGIN = NM + Antenna Gain - System Noise Figure [Needs to be 10-20 dB for Long Term Reliability]

System Noise Figure will be about 3-4 dB with RCA Preamp:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1321089

=========================================================
FWIW: The 91XG has about -5 dBi Raw Gain on Ch13 in Forward Direction and nearly 5 dBi out the REAR (Ch13 would be only 30-deg away from Max Gain). In Older 91XG's, Hi-VHF is only attenuated by about 0.5 dB in the Cylindrical 300:75-ohm Balun Transformer....and in the newer 91XG's the PCB Balun would only attenuate and NOT completely block his fairly strong Ch13:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/91xg
Also note that 91XG reaches Max Gain well into the OLD UHF Band (up thru Ch69), which results in significantly lower Gain on lower Channels. So Ch18 (CBS, 7.1) may be worse than Ch30 (NBC, 10.1). Antennas specifically designed for the NEW UHF Band (i.e. North America ONLY) minimize this difference in performance, such as DB-8e and various Optimized DIY Projects (found in my ANTENNA SIMULATIONS signature link).


----------



## Finch85

Calaveras said:


> Sounds like your stations are just very marginal. What does the TiVo diagnostic screen show for an SNR when you're having trouble?
> 
> If you've never done that with the Roamio go here:
> 
> Settings & Messages: Account & System Info: DVR Diagnostics
> 
> Then scroll through the screens until you find the tuner that's tuned to the current station and read the SNR from the list.
> 
> I don't know how a 91XG can possibly receive WBRA on RF 3. You need a real high/low VHF antenna.


Thanks for the tip. I'll check when I get back home. I'm pretty sure when you guys helped me before that someone said the 91XG could possibly receive VHF channels and I receive both PBS 15 and ABC 13. I have absolutely no issues with ABC. Probably my best channel!



> I agree. Any problems with channel 13?


Not at all.


----------



## Finch85

holl_ands said:


> It just means you are experiencing MULTIPATH FADING and you don't have enough FADE MARGIN to accommodate the signal variations....which is perfectly normal, esp. for 1Edge and 2Edge signals.
> Going significantly HIGHER will probably help....but a Vertically or Horizontally Stacked PAIR of Antennas will provide the big boost you need for LONG TERM Reliability:
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...wnc-looking-serious-antenna.html#post31408857
> 
> FADE MARGIN = NM + Antenna Gain - System Noise Figure [Needs to be 10-20 dB for Long Term Reliability]
> 
> System Noise Figure will be about 3-4 dB with RCA Preamp:
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1321089
> 
> =========================================================
> FWIW: The 91XG has about -5 dBi Raw Gain on Ch13 in Forward Direction and nearly 5 dBi out the REAR (Ch13 would be only 30-deg away from Max Gain). In Older 91XG's, Hi-VHF is only attenuated by about 0.5 dB in the Cylindrical 300:75-ohm Balun Transformer....and in the newer 91XG's the PCB Balun would only attenuate and NOT completely block his fairly strong Ch13:
> http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/91xg
> Also note that 91XG reaches Max Gain well into the OLD UHF Band (up thru Ch69), which results in significantly lower Gain on lower Channels. So Ch18 (CBS, 7.1) may be worse than Ch30 (NBC, 10.1). Antennas specifically designed for the NEW UHF Band (i.e. North America ONLY) minimize this difference in performance, such as DB-8e and various Optimized DIY Projects (found in my ANTENNA SIMULATIONS signature link).


I'll check out your links in more detail when I get home. I will say however, not sure I want to stack two 91XGs. My issues bother me but not that much. Thanks for your input!


----------



## holl_ands

I'm curious as to whether your 91XG has a conventional Cylindrical Balun or is using the new PCB Balun Box.


----------



## Finch85

holl_ands said:


> I'm curious as to whether your 91XG has a conventional Cylindrical Balun or is using the new PCB Balun Box.


How can I tell? Can you tell from the photo I included?


----------



## Calaveras

Finch85 said:


> How can I tell? Can you tell from the photo I included?


The old balun is a black cylinder out the back of the plastic housing with an F connector. The PCB balun has an F connector coming out the bottom of the plastic housing.


----------



## Finch85

Calaveras said:


> Sounds like your stations are just very marginal. What does the TiVo diagnostic screen show for an SNR when you're having trouble?
> 
> If you've never done that with the Roamio go here:
> 
> Settings & Messages: Account & System Info: DVR Diagnostics
> 
> Then scroll through the screens until you find the tuner that's tuned to the current station and read the SNR from the list.
> 
> I don't know how a 91XG can possibly receive WBRA on RF 3. You need a real high/low VHF antenna.


Well of course, not having issues at the moment when trying to diagnose the issue. I'm on the diagnostics page for channel 10-1 and it's SNR is 23dB. I'll wait until later when/if it starts acting up again and check the SNR then. Current signal strength is 55%.


----------



## Finch85

Calaveras said:


> The old balun is a black cylinder out the back of the plastic housing with an F connector. The PCB balun has an F connector coming out the bottom of the plastic housing.


PCB then if I understood you correctly.


----------



## Calaveras

Finch85 said:


> PCB then if I understood you correctly.



Yes. That's the PCB balun.

With an SNR of 23 dB you should not be having a problem. When you have a problem it'll likely be 15-16 db.

Do you have hills in other directions that the signals could reflect off of?


----------



## Finch85

Calaveras said:


> Yes. That's the PCB balun.
> 
> With an SNR of 23 dB you should not be having a problem. When you have a problem it'll likely be 15-16 db.
> 
> Do you have hills in other directions that the signals could reflect off of?


Yes, hills all around me. The "issue" just occurred again but it's so quick that even using the shortcut button to the diagnostics, I only saw the SNR at 24dB. Too bad there's no way to see the SNR while watching the desired channel. Maybe I'm just being TOO picky?


----------



## Finch85

Ok, so I never had an issue with receiving channel 13 although I'm not supposed to receive it with the 91XG.  Since I've moved the ANT the other day, it's now in the "unreliable" column as of 5 minutes ago. Just flipped through and it's saying "no signal found" or whatever for this channel. Went to diagnostics and it's SNR is 1dB. It was on earlier though with perfect reception. That's the thing I really don't understand. How can I be receiving this channel perfectly at certain times of the day and not at all during other times. Same thing with PBS but honestly, since I moved the ANT, PBS has been better than ever. 

What cheap solution would you recommend for receiving 13 and 15 reliably? If I bought another antenna to pick up these channels all the time, what do I need to do for my TV to receive both signals from each ANT? Hope that made sense. I will say that until the other day when I moved the ANT, I had no issues with 13. It was my best channel probably. 15 came in the mornings and was gone in the afternoon. My other channels: 7, 10, 27, 38 are better than they have been since I moved a few days ago but I want it all (ch 13 & 15 to be just as reliable).


----------



## Finch85

Now 13 is working. Beats the hell out of me?


----------



## Calaveras

Finch85 said:


> Yes, hills all around me. The "issue" just occurred again but it's so quick that even using the shortcut button to the diagnostics, I only saw the SNR at 24dB. Too bad there's no way to see the SNR while watching the desired channel. Maybe I'm just being TOO picky?


It's hard to diagnose this problem in a forum. You may have more than one issue. Momentary dropouts have to be problem with your system and not reception conditions. Conditions can not go from 24 dB to


----------



## Calaveras

Finch85 said:


> Now 13 is working. Beats the hell out of me?



This is a Signal Quality meter not a Signal Strength meter. It's beyond me why they have to call an apple an orange. If they had an SQ and an SS meter many problems could be diagnosed much more easily.


----------



## Finch85

Calaveras said:


> This is a Signal Quality meter not a Signal Strength meter. It's beyond me why they have to call an apple an orange. If they had an SQ and an SS meter many problems could be diagnosed much more easily.


When you go into the DVR diagnostics page, I see a "signal strength" value there but it shows the same as the screenshot I just provided. Are they both the same? If so, where do I find the true signal strength?


----------



## jspENC

Finch85,

Doesn't this particular antenna "tilt" up and down? Try that. You also may have to move the antenna down the mast an inch or two, but better would be to raise it if you can. Also have you checked over the coax? First unplug power from the RCA pre-amp power supply, then unscrew coax at all connections and make sure the center conductor is in good shape, (no water damage) make sure the braids from the shielding are not touching the center conductor, and that enough of the conductor is showing for a good connection.


----------



## richart

jspENC said:


> Finch85,
> 
> Doesn't this particular antenna "tilt" up and down? Try that. You also may have to move the antenna down the mast an inch or two, but better would be to raise it if you can. Also have you checked over the coax? First unplug power from the RCA pre-amp power supply, then unscrew coax at all connections and make sure the center conductor is in good shape, (no water damage) make sure the braids from the shielding are not touching the center conductor, and that enough of the conductor is showing for a good connection.


I had a problem a few weeks ago with the 91XG in my installation. During a heavy rainstorm, water infiltrated the balun enclosure and my weakest stations stopped working. Water also wicked from the F connector on the bottom of the balun enclosure into my coax. 

Antennas Direct has a modification to drill two small 1/16" weep holes in the underside of the case to allow any water infiltration to drain out. You might want to check your balun to see if it has the weep holes. Also, the water infiltrates the balun enclosure through the screw that attaches the balun to the boom. You can resolve that issue by sealing the area using RTV silicone sealant. Do not use regular silicone sealant from the home supply store as it contains acetic acid which can cause corrosion. I found RTV sealant made by Permatex at my local auto parts store.


----------



## Finch85

richart said:


> I had a problem a few weeks ago with the 91XG in my installation. During a heavy rainstorm, water infiltrated the balun enclosure and my weakest stations stopped working. Water also wicked from the F connector on the bottom of the balun enclosure into my coax.
> 
> Antennas Direct has a modification to drill two small 1/16" weep holes in the underside of the case to allow any water infiltration to drain out. You might want to check your balun to see if it has the weep holes. Also, the water infiltrates the balun enclosure through the screw that attaches the balun to the boom. You can resolve that issue by sealing the area using RTV silicone sealant. Do not use regular silicone sealant from the home supply store as it contains acetic acid which can cause corrosion. I found RTV sealant made by Permatex at my local auto parts store.


Appreciate the heads up! I'll do that... easy enough.


----------



## holl_ands

dswallow said:


> Why isn't anyone offering outdoor antennas painted sky blue (or sky gray depending on where you live, or some combination pattern)?
> 
> There's certainly paints that can safely be used. And it'd make it a lot more difficult to see as a "big ugly antenna" if there was a little color/camouflage to it.
> 
> As close as you are, though, Brett, the Winegard SquareShooter probably would be ideal... and it's a compact 16"x16".


About the ONLY "PRO" for the SquareShooter is it kinda looks like a square (16"x16") Dish..."CON" is the very low Gain on either UHF or Hi-VHF....and it couldn't even beat the "Batwing" CM-3010 StealthTenna:
https://www.bluevalleytech.com/tech...vs-channel-master-3010-stealth-vs-rca-ant-806
Note that Virtual 6.1 was only Hi-VHF Ch13.

SS-1000 was WAY BOTTOM of the HEAP in Bob Chase's (Houston Station Engineer) Comparison Tests:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...a-related-hardware-topic-201.html#post9332997

There ARE some GOOD alternatives, such as A-D Lacrosse, UHF Gain = 7 to 10.5 dBi and Hi-VHF Gain = 5 to 6 dBi, a full-size (20"x14") 2-Bay Bowtie in a Square Paintable Enclosure, unfortunately discontinued quite some time ago, but you might find one used:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/pdf/LacrosseInstallationInstructions.pdf

Channel Master Outdoor CM-3000HD Flat Panel Antenna Specs claim Hi-VHF Gain = 5 dB (i or d???) and UHF Gain = 8 dB (i or d???) which would make it roughly equal to Lacrosse or full-size M2 (9.5x9.0) 2-Bay designed for NEW UHF Band.
http://www.channelmasterstore.com/SMARTenna_HD_Antenna_p/cm-3000hd.htm
I haven't seen any OTA Comparison Tests......yet.....

RCA ANT-800F Outdoor Flat Panel is about as low-viz as anyone could ever want (unfortunately, RCA & most other mfrs don't think customers NEED any Specs):
http://manuals.solidsignal.com/ANT800_Manual.pdf
http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT800F-Digital-Outdoor-Amplified/dp/B001VYTCDK
http://www.walmart.com/ip/10983722?...81276152&wl4=&wl5=pla&wl6=78811148072&veh=sem

Note that ANT-800 or ANT-800F (different mount?) is a bit LARGER (15"x14") than the ANT-1650 (14"x11"), the largest of the INDOOR Flat panels...hence it "should" provide a bit better Hi-VHF (and maybe also UHF) performance. Note that RCA 1650 outperformed other similar Indoor Antennas when tested by Consumer Reports in an Urban Location, see Post #15 :
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...hdtv-need-better-stronger-antenna-signal.html

Antennacraft 1000 is also very low-viz (20-in Diameter) and Paintable with UHF Gain = 8.6 dBi, but miserable in Hi-VHF Band (just like SS-1000)...but it just might be enough if your signals are strong enough. Also available thru Radio-Shack:
http://manuals.solidsignal.com/HDX1000_Specs.pdf

Or hide a REAL Outdoor Antenna behind a Fibreglass, Vinyl PVC or Wood Panel/Trellis.....or build or buy a BOX on the I-N that is the right size to enclose the chosen Antenna, e.g. 4-Bay or even 8-Bay Bowtie.


----------



## tylerSC

Sorry to hear Radioshack has filed for bankruptcy and may be closing. Always a good source for antennas and electronic accessories. Including Antennacraft products. But when they dropped basic individual rabbit ears and the UHF bowtie a year or so ago, I knew things were not good. Because switching to cell phone and computer products would not effectively compete with Best Buy and Amazon. Sad to hear this news, but maybe some stores will be able to remain open. But I would think the high rent mall stores will likely close.


----------



## jspENC

tylerSC said:


> Sorry to hear Radioshack has filed for bankruptcy and may be closing. Always a good source for antennas and electronic accessories. Including Antennacraft products. But when they dropped basic individual rabbit ears and the UHF bowtie a year or so ago, I knew things were not good. Because switching to cell phone and computer products would not effectively compete with Best Buy and Amazon. Sad to hear this news, but maybe some stores will be able to remain open. But I would think the high rent mall stores will likely close.


The store in the mall here is closing. I wish I had known sooner, because when I went, the good stuff was all gone. Major discounted prices too.


----------



## Finch85

I'm pretty sure I've discovered my problem with the "blipping" or dropouts. I went up on the roof the other day to replace all my crimped F connectors with compression connects. When I got to the coax on the ANT, I found that the lead going into the combined input of my RCA preamp was loose. Actually, I guess I may have over-tightened it during the initial installation. The input on the preamp is actually loose inside the preamp. I had the wife on the phone and started to ever so slightly wiggle that connection and she immediately said the TV was acting up. I guess I'm going to order a new preamp and also take apart the current one to see if a solder joint is broken or what not.


----------



## Fritz

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=f1f06732415bd1

95% of the chans we want are at 251º. One chan is south at 188º
looking for some input on a new antenna purchase. I bought a small RCA which can't cut the low VHF chans in my area, 2, 4, and 5, which are the CBS, NBC and Fox flagships in the area.
7 and above are fine.
The signal is there, but low enough that the TV has difficulty locking it. 8yo Sharp.
I'd rather not put up a 10' behemoth if I can avoid it.
The antenna is on the roof, about 30' up and 125' plus above sea level. The area is fairly treed.
50' to the first TV, FM rcvr and possibly a Tablo unit. Then an additional 75' to the 2nd TV.
The Wineguard seems to list many discontinued products. The Antennacraft site has no pre-sales or other contact.
ChannelMaster looks to have plenty of info and contact, so I'm thinking them first.
Or Dennys, which seems to have his custom products made by Wineguard and he does respond to pre-sales.

Also, the matching transformer that came with the RCA was utter junk. Cheap #22 or less wire with cheap crimp terminal loops.


----------



## ADTech

I answered this thoroughly over at TVFool's forum. You need a LARGE, all channel antenna.


----------



## Calaveras

Fritz said:


> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=f1f06732415bd1
> 
> I bought a small RCA which can't cut the low VHF chans in my area, 2, 4, and 5, which are the CBS, NBC and Fox flagships in the area.



Channels 2, 4 and 5 are the virtual channel numbers. The real channels are all on UHF. Look at your TV Fool report under "Channels Real" for what is actually on 2, 3, 4 and 5.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Look closer. He also has REAL channels 2, 4, & 5 on his report, all low power, low VHF stations from NYC. He needs to clarify what he wants by the station call letters instead of just throwing out channel numbers which have multiple meanings.


----------



## Calaveras

ProjectSHO89 said:


> Look closer. He also has REAL channels 2, 4, & 5 on his report, all low power, low VHF stations from NYC. He needs to clarify what he wants by the station call letters instead of just throwing out channel numbers which have multiple meanings.



I think you missed the part where he said 2, 4 and 5 are CBS, NBC and Fox which their virtual channels are, not low VHF.  I did say he needs to look at TV Fool for the stations on real channels 2-5.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Sure enough, I missed that....

Doh!


----------



## dundakitty

I'm in Durham, NC, and I've started exploring the possibility of switching to OTA. Here's my tvfool report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=f1f0860089e630

I'm interested in the real channels 48, 49, 27, 17, and 11.

I've purchased an HD Frequency Cable Cutter antenna http://hdfrequency.com/best_indoor_hdtv_antennas.html and mounted it in my attic.
My house faces 133 degrees, so I simply screwed it to an upright truss beam as high as I could get it.
To test the antenna I used 50' of quad-shield RG6 from the antenna to a 4-port drop amp (7.5db per port gain), then 6' to the TV.
Reception was unacceptable on all channels, with many drop-outs. On the best channel the TV's so-called signal strength meter reported peaks of 88% but would regularly drop to 33%. I should mention it was a very windy day.

I have another single-port 15 db drop-amp, I was thinking of placing it as close to the antenna as possible.
Would a different antenna be a better approach?
Would a CM-4228HD (still in the attic) be overkill?


----------



## rabbit73

Try the 4228, aimed at 139 degrees magnetic, directly to one TV. If the signals are still weak, add the drop amp near the antenna. The signal attenuation caused by the attic location is an unknown, so the 4228 might not be overkill.


> I should mention it was a very windy day.


That suggests trees in the signal path. Try different attic locations.


----------



## dundakitty

rabbit73 said:


> Try the 4228, aimed at 139 degrees magnetic, directly to one TV. If the signals are still weak, add the drop amp near the antenna. The signal attenuation caused by the attic location is an unknown, so the 4228 might not be overkill.
> That suggests trees in the signal path. Try different attic locations.


I should clarify that the only antenna I currently have is the HD Frequency Cable Cutter. By "4228 (still in the attic)" I mean that if I purchase a 4228, I would still mount it in the attic. Would a different antenna be a better match?


----------



## rabbit73

Oh, OK. Thanks for the clarification.

The 4228 is primarily for UHF, but CH 11 is VHF. If the 4228 doesn't pick up 11, even with the drop amp, then you will have to add a VHF antenna and combine it with the 4228 using a UVSJ

The alternative would be to buy a Winegard HD7697P or HD7698P VHF/UHF combo antenna. Assemble the phasing line wires with care.

You will probably need to unfold the antenna after putting it in the attic. Watch out for the sharp ends.


----------



## SFischer1

rabbit73 said:


> Oh, OK. Thanks for the clarification.
> 
> The 4228 is primarily for UHF, but CH 11 is VHF. If the 4228 doesn't pick up 11, even with the drop amp, then you will have to add a VHF antenna and combine it with the 4228 using a UVSJ.
> 
> The alternative would be to buy a Winegard VHF/UHF combo antenna.


A CD4228HD in an attic is like all other antennas in attics, iffy at best. You need a big hole to get one into an attic. I had good success with a UHF 4 bay Bow Tie on a rotor with a pre-amp until the metal roof was put on.

The last person who wanted to do this never posted success or failure. I was very worried that he had a metal roof like I do.

http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=2165469 

I get KGO VC 7 RF 7 and KNTV VC 11 RF 12 just fine. No joy on RF 2 or RF 3 (Very LOW POWER)

SHF


----------



## rabbit73

> CD4428HD


? 

CM4228HD 

Yes, the 4228 is big; the CM4221HD, or DB4e would be easier to put in the attic and has almost as much gain. It would need to be combined with a Y5-7-13 VHF antenna for CH 11 using a UVSJ. 

A metal roof would certainly block the signals, as would aluminum foil heat barrier like Techshield, or aluminum siding.


----------



## dundakitty

SFischer1 said:


> A CD4228HD in an attic is like all other antennas in attics, iffy at best. You need a big hole to get one into an attic. I had good success with a UHF 4 bay Bow Tie on a rotor with a pre-amp until the metal roof was put on.
> 
> The last person who wanted to do this never posted success or failure. I was very worried that he had a metal roof like I do.
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=2165469
> 
> I get KGO VC 7 RF 7 and KNTV VC 11 RF 12 just fine. No joy on RF 2 or RF 3 (Very LOW POWER)
> 
> SHF


I hung the CM-4228HD on two nails, 24" apart. I used a compass app on my smart phone and found my house points "close enough" to the tower farm. I'm using ~40 feet of quad-shield RG6 from the antenna to a 4-port distribution amp, +7.5 per port. 6' of cable runs from the amp to the TV.

Channels 48, 49, 27, and 17 all come in above 95 on the TV's signal meter, with occasional dips to the low 90's. I watched 17 last night for about two hours and did not notice a drop-out.
Channel 11 is another story. The TV's signal meter gives it a 45, with regular dips (and drop-outs) into the 20's.
Channel 25 is 10 miles closer but at 256 degrees instead of 129. It also regularly drops out, but I expected that and it isn't a concern.

While I'm disappointed with the quality of channel 11, I'm happy with the performance of the CM-4228HD. I'll try it out for a few months and possibly add a VHF antenna and a UVSJ. I'll also mount the CM-4228HD better so I can aim it.
There was just no way I could get a Winegard HD7697P through the roof trusses.


----------



## jspENC

You may find that moving the antenna just a few inches will bring in WTVD just fine. I found this out with my Winegard HD 8800 UHF while trying to tune in the VHF channels WNCT 10 and WCTI 12 in the TV market just to your east. In tuning the UHF channels, I found I could just throw the antenna up any which way and they would come in real easy like you seemed to have done. I still get a blip every now and then on 10 and 12, and the only cure for that is like you said, with a VHF hi band antenna.


----------



## retiredengineer

dundakitty said:


> Channels 48, 49, 27, and 17 all come in above 95 on the TV's signal meter, with occasional dips to the low 90's. I watched 17 last night for about two hours and did not notice a drop-out.
> Channel 11 is another story. The TV's signal meter gives it a 45, with regular dips (and drop-outs) into the 20's.


Checking TVFool, the LOS for WTVD lines up with the I40 freeway. Reflections off the moving vehicles may be causing the dips and dropoffs you see on WTVD, this is called multipath interference. You can try tilting your antenna up but I don't think it will help. IMHO, if the reflections are the cause of your problems, there is no practical solution.


----------



## tylerSC

dundakitty said:


> I hung the CM-4228HD on two nails, 24" apart. I used a compass app on my smart phone and found my house points "close enough" to the tower farm. I'm using ~40 feet of quad-shield RG6 from the antenna to a 4-port distribution amp, +7.5 per port. 6' of cable runs from the amp to the TV.
> 
> Channels 48, 49, 27, and 17 all come in above 95 on the TV's signal meter, with occasional dips to the low 90's. I watched 17 last night for about two hours and did not notice a drop-out.
> Channel 11 is another story. The TV's signal meter gives it a 45, with regular dips (and drop-outs) into the 20's.
> Channel 25 is 10 miles closer but at 256 degrees instead of 129. It also regularly drops out, but I expected that and it isn't a concern.
> 
> While I'm disappointed with the quality of channel 11, I'm happy with the performance of the CM-4228HD. I'll try it out for a few months and possibly add a VHF antenna and a UVSJ. I'll also mount the CM-4228HD better so I can aim it.
> There was just no way I could get a Winegard HD7697P through the roof trusses.


First try re-aiming the antenna. Then try with or without the distribution amp. Sometimes noisey amps are worse, but the Channel Masters are good. Or the Winegard LNA100. But you may need to add an FM trap before the amp. I used an FM trap to prevent dropouts on RF13, so FM interference could be a factor.


----------



## holl_ands

CM-4228HD (like many other modern Antennas, e.g. 91XG, DB-4e, DB8e) use a PCB (Printed Circuit Board) type Balun where circuitous lines in the PCB form different length Transmission Lines (aka "Half-wave 4:1 Coax Balun"). Unfortunately, it is only low-loss over the UHF Band, and has significant Loss and high SWR in the VHF Band.

I developed the OPTIMIZED HHH (Holl_ands Horizontal Harness) for the CM4228HD (and old CM4228) in order to overcome well known design deficiencies in the original designs:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl/newcm4228hdwithhollandshorizharness

Image #30 contains the detailed Dimensions of the HHH, which replaces the factory Horizontal Harness. Simply cut two (preferably Aluminum) wires to the requisite Length, bend the ends into a Hook to fit around the existing connection screws, make two bends per diagram and tweak to fit (routing of the ends isn't all that critical). If you REPLACE the PCB Balun (which is difficult to remove anyway) with a standard cylindrical 300:75-ohm Balun, the Hi-VHF performance of the CM4228HD can be restored to what the 4nec2 Simulation Results reveal (such as it is)....it MIGHT bring in Ch7-13...but only if your signals are strong enough to overcome Excessive SWR issues.

Of course, a separate Hi-VHF Antenna connected via a VHF/UHF Combiner is even better....

If you want to consider a simple, inexpensive DIY Project, try the fol. Hi-VHF Hourglass-Loop...you can start with a simple Bi-Directional (NO Reflector) version and if needed to reliably receive Ch8, you could upgrade to one of the versions with Reflector Rods:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/hivhfhourglassloop


----------



## rdcollns

dundakitty said:


> I hung the CM-4228HD on two nails, 24" apart. I used a compass app on my smart phone and found my house points "close enough" to the tower farm. I'm using ~40 feet of quad-shield RG6 from the antenna to a 4-port distribution amp, +7.5 per port. 6' of cable runs from the amp to the TV.
> 
> Channels 48, 49, 27, and 17 all come in above 95 on the TV's signal meter, with occasional dips to the low 90's. I watched 17 last night for about two hours and did not notice a drop-out.
> Channel 11 is another story. The TV's signal meter gives it a 45, with regular dips (and drop-outs) into the 20's.
> Channel 25 is 10 miles closer but at 256 degrees instead of 129. It also regularly drops out, but I expected that and it isn't a concern.
> 
> While I'm disappointed with the quality of channel 11, I'm happy with the performance of the CM-4228HD. I'll try it out for a few months and possibly add a VHF antenna and a UVSJ. I'll also mount the CM-4228HD better so I can aim it.
> There was just no way I could get a Winegard HD7697P through the roof trusses.


I mounted mine on a dowel rod, and the rod travels through a hole I drilled in the plaster ceiling so that I can adjust the angle in the living room. I found the ideal angle, and it worked perfectly until we replaced the siding on the front peak of the roof. Our contractor used foil faced insulation under the siding (required on the side of the house, but not on the front). Since then it has become more unpredictable requiring minor adjustments by the season, and Channel 2 inexplicable drops out out at random times regardless of the direction we face the antenna.


----------



## dundakitty

holl_ands said:


> ...
> Of course, a separate Hi-VHF Antenna connected via a VHF/UHF Combiner is even better....
> 
> If you want to consider a simple, inexpensive DIY Project, try the fol. Hi-VHF Hourglass-Loop...you can start with a simple Bi-Directional (NO Reflector) version and if needed to reliably receive Ch8, you could upgrade to one of the versions with Reflector Rods:
> http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/hivhfhourglassloop


I think I'll try the hourglass-loop with seven reflector rods. The project will have to wait a few months until I have time. I do dread assembling the antenna in the attic during the heat of the summer. There is just no way I can fit the assembled antenna through the attic access door. Any recommendations for a good balun and UVSJ?


----------



## smalltownguy

Need some help guys. I'm having trouble with 1 of the channels in my OTA lineup.

Here's my TVFool link:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=f1f00a1282c857

Admittedly, it's been several years since I've messed with the rooftop antenna I have, so be gentle. I can get get pics later if needed. 

My rooftop unit looks similar to this: 










Right now I'm having trouble with channel 4.1, which is UHF 32 for me I believe? The other stations in the same transmitter array (2.1, 5.1, 9.1 and 11.1) all come in just fine.

I'm using a signal amplifier with a unit that plugs in to electrical inside my house, and a small device mounted on the mast of the antenna outside. 

My amplified signal goes down one 20' piece of RG-6 cable to a 2-way splitter in the basement, where the split signal goes 10 feet to one TV, and 15' to the other. Neither TV can reliably tune channel 4.1.

I'm thinking of replacing the rooftop antenna, but are there steps I should be taking before I do that?


----------



## richart

Have you tried taking the amplifier out of the line. It may be overloading. From the signal report I would think you should be able to receive those stations without an amp. Is your antenna mounted on the roof or in the attic? Are there any trees or buildings in the direction of the TV transmitters?


----------



## smalltownguy

richart said:


> Have you tried taking the amplifier out of the line. It may be overloading. From the signal report I would think you should be able to receive those stations without an amp. Is your antenna mounted on the roof or in the attic? Are there any trees or buildings in the direction of the TV transmitters?


Antenna is on the roof. I have one large maple tree in the line of sight, other than that I'm on the top of a hill so it's a pretty clear shot.

I'll try removing the amp from the equation and see how that works.

Looking up at the roof, I noticed that one of the tines at the rear of the antenna is not straight out, like the wind had blown it forward. Not sure if that's worth mentioning, but I'll make sure I put it back into the correct position when I climb up there tonight.


----------



## fbov

And the opposite: have you verified the amplifier is working? Where does the power supply link up to the RG6? 

While overloading is a possibility, it should overload more than one channel. Conversely, you should lose more than one channel, too. This is odd.

Frank


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## ProjectSHO89

Your signals probably are not strong enough to cause amplifier overload.

Most likely, it's the maple tree's fault. Move either the antenna or the tree and try again.


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## Alf Tanner

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=f1f0030d14cfd2

Here is the tvfool report for my parents ranch in south western MO zip code 65679. Recommendations for antenna/amp? Will be mounted outside on roof or on a gigantic mast one of the two.

They have a Tivo Roamio and it drops signal now to a lot of channels with a $10 indoor antenna.


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## rabbit73

I suggest a Winegard HD7698P antenna and an Antennas Direct Juice, RCA TVPRAMP1R, or Channel Master 7778 preamp. The Juice, which is resistant to overload, doesn't have an FM trap, so you need to add one because there are some strong FM signals that might interfere with CH 10.

Most of your main networks come from about 17 degrees magnetic, but Myn comes from 46 degrees. 

The antenna coax should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge, but the system will not survive a direct strike.


----------



## Calaveras

Alf Tanner said:


> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=f1f0030d14cfd2
> 
> Here is the tvfool report for my parents ranch in south western MO zip code 65679. Recommendations for antenna/amp? Will be mounted outside on roof or on a gigantic mast one of the two.
> 
> They have a Tivo Roamio and it drops signal now to a lot of channels with a $10 indoor antenna.



I'm going to assume you're most interested in the 5 major network stations. I see that KWBM carries Fox even though TV Fool doesn't list it as so. Looking at your TV Fool report it is no surprise that an indoor antenna isn't working. But considering you're getting some stations you probably don't need the largest outdoor antenna. You also need to receive stations from 17 to 46 degrees. I also checked your FM Fool report and I see no stations that should give channel 10 a bad time.

All this considered I'd suggest the HBU33 antenna for a wider beamwidth and covers VHF/UHF. Point it at 32 degrees. I think the RCA TVPRAMP1R preamp would be good enough for you.

Edit: I see rabbit73 beat me to it by a few minutes.  Normally I would have also recommended the HD7698P but I was concerned the beamwidth might be too narrow to split the difference between 17 and 46 degrees. I checked the models for that antenna and I see it's only down 2 dB at +/-15 degrees so it should be okay as long as it's pointed correctly.


----------



## rabbit73

Yes, the 7698 would be harder to aim for a compromise azimuth.

What I had in mind was 1Edge an 2Edge and some known Roamio tuner problems.
http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=15025


----------



## Alf Tanner

rabbit73 said:


> I suggest a Winegard HD7698P antenna and an Antennas Direct Juice, RCA TVPRAMP1R, or Channel Master 7778 preamp. The Juice, which is resistant overload, doesn't have an FM trap, so you need to add one because there are some strong FM signals that might interfere with CH 10.
> 
> Most of your main networks come from about 17 degrees magnetic, but Myn comes from 46 degrees.
> 
> The antenna coax should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge, but the system will not survive a direct strike.


Noted, and was definitely planning on the grounding block. Thank you. Lightning is a huge problem, even with multiple UPS and decent grounding around the house we've lost a lot of equipment to lightning. I think the reason we get several channels so far is the main ranch house is on top of a hill an estimated 30-40 ft above everything to the north. We do have a mast outside on the north side of the house right now, I think it needs to be 20ft higher or moved to the west 50 ft to completely eliminate blockage from the trees that surround the house.



Calaveras said:


> I'm going to assume you're most interested in the 5 major network stations. I see that KWBM carries Fox even though TV Fool doesn't list it as so. Looking at your TV Fool report it is no surprise that an indoor antenna isn't working. But considering you're getting some stations you probably don't need the largest outdoor antenna. You also need to receive stations from 17 to 46 degrees. I also checked your FM Fool report and I see no stations that should give channel 10 a bad time.
> 
> All this considered I'd suggest the HBU33 antenna for a wider beamwidth and covers VHF/UHF. Point it at 32 degrees. I think the RCA TVPRAMP1R preamp would be good enough for you.
> 
> Edit: I see rabbit73 beat me to it by a few minutes.  Normally I would have also recommended the HD7698P but I was concerned the beamwidth might be too narrow to split the difference between 17 and 46 degrees. I checked the models for that antenna and I see it's only down 2 dB at +/-15 degrees so it should be okay as long as it's pointed correctly.


This is a lot more involved than I initially thought, haha. Should have known, ive been setting up directional cellular boosters for years for work in remote places. The stations to the north are almost all Springfield Missouri stations, the ones to the west/southwest are Springdale/Fayetteville Arkansas stations. As it sits now they come in somewhat, most of the time. 

Using google earth pro from the exact location of their antenna I looked at distances and headings:

348* 44 miles is to the KOLR 10 antenna at the very northern most part of springfield MO 
294* 86 miles to Joplin MO
234* 66 miles to Fayetteville/Springdale AR
248* 58 miles to Rogers AR
158* 138 miles to Little Rock Arkansas
336* 185 miles to KC


Looking at that would it be possible to pick up Springfield, Rogers, Fayetteville and possible Joplin stations? (in a somewhat perfect world)


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> Yes, the 7698 would be harder to aim for a compromise azimuth.
> 
> What I had in mind was 1Edge an 2Edge and some known Roamio tuner problems.
> http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=15025



I don't know what they're talking about. I have a TiVo Roamio and there are no tuner issues I've ever found. A station with an SNR about 16 dB shows 37 on the TiVo meter. I've run careful tests on the TiVo and its sensitivity is about 0.5 dB less than my Sony TV. This puts the noise figure close to 6 dB. I found it to be able to handle about 0.5 dB more multipath than the Sony before the signal drops out. The Sony tuner performance is almost identical to two other tuners I've had. 

If someone is talking about the Roamio but really means the Premiere then that's another story. The Premiere is well known to have poor multipath performance.

The Roamio has an extensive diagnostic screen that reports all sorts of things except real signal strength. Too bad.


----------



## Alf Tanner

Calaveras said:


> I don't know what they're talking about. I have a TiVo Roamio and there are no tuner issues I've ever found. A station with an SNR about 16 dB shows 37 on the TiVo meter. I've run careful tests on the TiVo and its sensitivity is about 0.5 dB less than my Sony TV. This puts the noise figure close to 6 dB. I found it to be able to handle about 0.5 dB more multipath than the Sony before the signal drops out. The Sony tuner performance is almost identical to two other tuners I've had.
> 
> If someone is talking about the Roamio but really means the Premiere then that's another story. The Premiere is well known to have poor multipath performance.
> 
> The Roamio has an extensive diagnostic screen that reports all sorts of things except real signal strength. Too bad.


That is good to know. In this case I am definitely talking about a Roamio (basic), not Roamio OTA. I have a Roamio Pro at the house and thats what convinced me to buy them the basic for their OTA


----------



## Calaveras

Alf Tanner said:


> This is a lot more involved than I initially thought, haha. Should have known, ive been setting up directional cellular boosters for years for work in remote places. The stations to the north are almost all Springfield Missouri stations, the ones to the west/southwest are Springdale/Fayetteville Arkansas stations. As it sits now they come in somewhat, most of the time.
> 
> Using google earth pro from the exact location of their antenna I looked at distances and headings:
> 
> 348* 44 miles is to the KOLR 10 antenna at the very northern most part of springfield MO
> 294* 86 miles to Joplin MO
> 234* 66 miles to Fayetteville/Springdale AR
> 248* 58 miles to Rogers AR
> 158* 138 miles to Little Rock Arkansas
> 336* 185 miles to KC
> 
> 
> Looking at that would it be possible to pick up Springfield, Rogers, Fayetteville and possible Joplin stations? (in a somewhat perfect world)



I'm not familiar with which stations are in which cities without looking them all up but any station with a negative noise margin in TV Fool is going to be very hard to receive. There's a lot of variance with 2 edge signals and sometimes weak signals can be received when it seems impossible. Sometimes the opposite is true. Unless you're on top of a hill with a clear view to the distant station, anything over about 70 miles is likely impossible without ducting help which of course is unreliable.

If want to try for the more distant stations you'll need a large high gain antenna on a rotor as high as possible. Most people aren't interested in going to all that trouble. See my link below for the kind of antennas you'll need for stations over 70 miles.


----------



## Calaveras

Alf Tanner said:


> That is good to know. In this case I am definitely talking about a Roamio (basic), not Roamio OTA. I have a Roamio Pro at the house and thats what convinced me to buy them the basic for their OTA


I don't know what a Roamio OTA is but I have the Roamio Basic which I use exclusively for recording OTA.


----------



## Alf Tanner

Calaveras said:


> I don't know what a Roamio OTA is but I have the Roamio Basic which I use exclusively for recording OTA.


http://www.bestbuy.com/site/tivo-ro...lack/8758098.p?id=1219364357147&skuId=8758098 this is the Roamio OTA


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## Calaveras

Alf Tanner said:


> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/tivo-ro...lack/8758098.p?id=1219364357147&skuId=8758098 this is the Roamio OTA


Looks like the same as mine but without cable capability.


----------



## holl_ands

There are now FOUR Roamio versions..."Roamio OTA" is OTA ONLY, plain 'ol "Roamio" is OTA & Cable and the other two are Cable ONLY...note that the "Premier" name has been relegated to History:
https://www.tivo.com/shop/roamio#/roamio


----------



## tylerSC

The TiVo Premiere can still be found on clearance at select Walmart locations. It is nice for offering 2 separate cable and antenna inputs, and nicely integrates the channel guide for both. The Roamio only has one selectable input to choose between antenna or cable, but the tuner is indeed improved, especially with multipath.


----------



## rabbit73

Alf Tanner said:


> I think the reason we get several channels so far is the main ranch house is on top of a hill an estimated 30-40 ft above everything to the north. We do have a mast outside on the north side of the house right now, I think it needs to be 20ft higher or moved to the west 50 ft to completely eliminate blockage from the trees that surround the house.
> This is a lot more involved than I initially thought, haha. Should have known, ive been setting up directional cellular boosters for years for work in remote places. The stations to the north are almost all Springfield Missouri stations, the ones to the west/southwest are Springdale/Fayetteville Arkansas stations. As it sits now they come in somewhat, most of the time.
> Using google earth pro from the exact location of their antenna I looked at distances and headings:
> 348* 44 miles is to the KOLR 10 antenna at the very northern most part of springfield MO
> 294* 86 miles to Joplin MO
> 234* 66 miles to Fayetteville/Springdale AR
> 248* 58 miles to Rogers AR
> 158* 138 miles to Little Rock Arkansas
> 336* 185 miles to KC
> Looking at that would it be possible to pick up Springfield, Rogers, Fayetteville and possible Joplin stations? (in a somewhat perfect world)


"348* 44 miles is to the KOLR 10 antenna" doesn't seem to agree with your tvfool report.

Maybe you should redo your report using the interactive map feature of tvfool and move the teardrop cursor to the exact location of the antenna, and click on Make Radar Plot at the upper right corner of the map:
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90 

In the somewhat perfect world you would need a 500 ft tower.











Using an estimate of your location this is what the report looks like at 500 ft:
*http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3df1f0f48b1ced9e*

294* 86 miles to Joplin MO
KSNF 82.9 mi, 2Edge, NM -14.7 dB

234* 66 miles to Fayetteville/Springdale AR
KHOG 65.9 mi, 1Edge, NM 5.8 dB 

158* 138 miles to Little Rock Arkansas
KARK 131.2 mi, Tropo, NM -18.8 dB

336* 185 miles to KC
Forget it, you are fighting rough terrain and the curvature of the earth which starts to cause problems at 70 mi.


----------



## Alf Tanner

rabbit73 said:


> "348* 44 miles is to the KOLR 10 antenna" doesn't seem to agree with your tvfool report.
> 
> Maybe you should redo your report using the interactive map feature of tvfool and move the teardrop cursor to the exact location of the antenna, and click on Make Radar Plot at the upper right corner of the map:
> http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90
> 
> In the somewhat perfect world you would need a 500 ft tower.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Using an estimate of your location this is what the report looks like at 500 ft:
> *http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=f1f0f48b1ced9e*
> 
> 294* 86 miles to Joplin MO
> KSNF 82.9 mi, 2Edge, NM -14.7 dB
> 
> 234* 66 miles to Fayetteville/Springdale AR
> KHOG 65.9 mi, 1Edge, NM 5.8 dB
> 
> 158* 138 miles to Little Rock Arkansas
> KARK 131.2 mi, Tropo, NM -18.8 dB
> 
> 336* 185 miles to KC
> Forget it, you are fighting rough terrain and the curvature of the earth which starts to cause problems at 70 mi.


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=f1f0ff27b05922
Thank you for the response. I never thought KC stations would be a possibility, but it would be cooler if they were. I attached the link to show from the exact address, which may still be somewhat off because weve been fighting the post office for the last 60 years to get them to have our address listed. Currently still using a post office box as a result. Estimated height will be 30ft above the ground for antenna placement.


----------



## J_ph

bad fitting!

I have a 75 run of coax from a CM4228HD with a CM-7777 amp that worked great for 4 1/2 years. In the middle of the winter the reception was sporadic and then finally quit. Well... the winter is finally gone and I went out to replace the amp which I had thought was the problem. nope. So I shorted the ends of the coax and tested for continuity and found a coupling outside and the fitting that is in the photo (see attached). 

I assume that water got into the fitting or the coax shielding. The fitting was fully wrapped in good quality scotch 33 tape. I have replaced the fitting and the reception is back, possibly better than before, but it also has the new amp installed so it's not a direct comparision. I know that I should replace the entire run but I have too many other projects that need to be finished first.

I have read a couple of discussion about whether a black conductor that looks burned may be electrolysis, dis-similar metals, shorting, or just corrosion etc. If I wasn't using a powered mast mounted amp would this corrosion not have happened?

Also, how many of you are using dielectric grease, silicone grease or vaseline to fill any fittings? 

thanks in advance,

j


----------



## tylerSC

J_ph said:


> bad fitting!
> 
> I have a 75 run of coax from a CM4228HD with a CM-7777 amp that worked great for 4 1/2 years. In the middle of the winter the reception was sporadic and then finally quit. Well... the winter is finally gone and I went out to replace the amp which I had thought was the problem. nope. So I shorted the ends of the coax and tested for continuity and found a coupling outside and the fitting that is in the photo (see attached).
> 
> I assume that water got into the fitting or the coax shielding. The fitting was fully wrapped in good quality scotch 33 tape. I have replaced the fitting and the reception is back, possibly better than before, but it also has the new amp installed so it's not a direct comparision. I know that I should replace the entire run but I have too many other projects that need to be finished first.
> 
> I have read a couple of discussion about whether a black conductor that looks burned may be electrolysis, dis-similar metals, shorting, or just corrosion etc. If I wasn't using a powered mast mounted amp would this corrosion not have happened?
> 
> Also, how many of you are using dielectric grease, silicone grease or vaseline to fill any fittings?
> 
> thanks in advance,
> 
> j


What amp did you replace the CM-7777? And was it an old model version that was replaced?


----------



## Calaveras

J_ph said:


> bad fitting!
> 
> I have a 75 run of coax from a CM4228HD with a CM-7777 amp that worked great for 4 1/2 years. In the middle of the winter the reception was sporadic and then finally quit. Well... the winter is finally gone and I went out to replace the amp which I had thought was the problem. nope. So I shorted the ends of the coax and tested for continuity and found a coupling outside and the fitting that is in the photo (see attached).
> 
> I assume that water got into the fitting or the coax shielding. The fitting was fully wrapped in good quality scotch 33 tape. I have replaced the fitting and the reception is back, possibly better than before, but it also has the new amp installed so it's not a direct comparision. I know that I should replace the entire run but I have too many other projects that need to be finished first.
> 
> I have read a couple of discussion about whether a black conductor that looks burned may be electrolysis, dis-similar metals, shorting, or just corrosion etc. If I wasn't using a powered mast mounted amp would this corrosion not have happened?
> 
> Also, how many of you are using dielectric grease, silicone grease or vaseline to fill any fittings?
> 
> thanks in advance,
> 
> j


I've never been able to keep water out of a connector by using tape and I don't use any greases. I use coax seal that can be molded around any connector. The best thing is to have connectors shielded by something to avoid direct exposure to rain or snow. This is why preamps have connectors underneath the housing to shield them from direct exposure. These connectors don't require any additional protection. The worst situation is to have a connector pointing up exposed to the elements. In that situation I use the end of a plastic soda bottle to shield the connector. That plastic is UV proof and RF transparent.


----------



## J_ph

Hi Calaveras

I will look into the Coax Seal, but probably still use some sort of non conductive filler. My thought is that even if the seal is perfect over the fitting that there is a chance that water is getting in through another area of the coax shield and traveling to the fittings. And if water does leach in through the coax shield and the seal is tight over the fitting it just makes a better fish tank. I don't see any harm with using a grease to displace the water if it does get in. There are drip loops in this particular horizontal run, but it is still coming from somewhere.

thanks,

j


----------



## J_ph

tylerSC said:


> What amp did you replace the CM-7777? And was it an old model version that was replaced?


Hi Tyler,

Yes I replaced the old version with the new version. I read about the thoughts against the new version here but I thought I'd give it a try since there weren't that many alternatives. I spoke to the folks at CM and they were also helpful.

My location is less than optimum, and the antenna is pointed directly at a large stand of trees that I would never be able to reach over no matter how high I go. So, the antenna is mounted on the roof on a short-ish mount so that it's not very visible from the street. I live in the NJ and my only need is the standard channels: 2,4,5,7,9,11 and 13, but it pulls in much more than that, so I'm happy. I supplement the OTA programming with Netflix, Hulu and even trying out Sling too.

regards

j


----------



## Calaveras

J_ph said:


> Hi Calaveras
> 
> I will look into the Coax Seal, but probably still use some sort of non conductive filler. My thought is that even if the seal is perfect over the fitting that there is a chance that water is getting in through another area of the coax shield and traveling to the fittings. And if water does leach in through the coax shield and the seal is tight over the fitting it just makes a better fish tank. I don't see any harm with using a grease to displace the water if it does get in. There are drip loops in this particular horizontal run, but it is still coming from somewhere.
> 
> thanks,
> 
> j



Water has to be kept out of the coax completely. If water gets into the coax then it will not work correctly. Water in the coax changes the dielectric constant of the coax making the impedance change and the loss goes way up.


----------



## J_ph

I do agree that water is bad.... I'm hoping that the water did get in at the location of the fitting, but just incase I'll put a little dielectric grease in too. I ordered a roll of Coax Seal with the dielectric grease. If it happens again, I'll need to climb up on the roof and replace the line, and regret that I didn't do it now 

best regards

j


----------



## tylerSC

Apparently Antennacraft has ceased production at its manufacturing facility due to the Radioshack bankruptcy. So look for clearance deals from various vendors including Radioshack if interested before all their antenna products disappear. And it remains unclear if Radioshack will continue to sell TV antennas going forward, as it is now cobranded with Sprint in the remaining stores.


----------



## AntAltMike

Holy conspiracy, Batman, Sprint won't want the broadcast TV industry to be sustained, because they want to be in on the spectrum auction when it fails!


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## ProjectSHO89

AntAltMike said:


> Holy conspiracy, Batman, Sprint won't want the broadcast TV industry to be sustained, because they want to be in on the spectrum auction when it fails!



Nah, it's nothing like that (or as interesting).

Hedge firm Standard General, who had loaned Radio Shack most of its debt, also owns a Sprint sales affiliate, General Wireless. It boiled down to trying to save some of their investment instead of just liquidating everything. Sprint Corp was able to double their retail footprint in the process and hopefully avoid their own trip into oblivion. Besides, except for some 800 MHz spectrum brought in from the Nextel acquisition, all of Sprint's assets are in the PCS and higher bands. They're also sitting on 120 MHz of 2.5 GHz spectrum from the Clearwire acquisition that they haven't figured out what to do with. Sprint didn't even bother to buy in this January's AWS-3 auction.

Antennacraft was about as visible as a small pimple on an elephant's backside in the whole scheme of things.


----------



## Traveler2530

Is there anything such as a wireless TV antenna signal booster broadcast/receiver system? Is there such a device that the antenna(where ever it is near by) could be plugged into it, then have a pickup on the back of the TV(s)? Like Wi-Fi for the antenna's TV signal? 

This would be to eliminate running cable from the antenna to the TV(s). Our home owner's association does not allow exterior TV antennas of any kind. For example in our single floor/ranch home in the 'burbs:

We get adequate HDTV reception for MOST stations we watch broadcasting over the air with $10 RCA rabbit ears sitting on top of the back of the TV. 

If we hang the same antenna from the top of the ceiling using dental floss, aimed the same direction, we get noticeably better reception. Higher is better!

It would be nice to put a good quality TV antenna high in the attic, or even hidden high up in an evergreen tree outside in the back yard. But running new coax cable is the last thing I want to do.


----------



## Primestar31

Traveler2530 said:


> Is there anything such as a wireless TV antenna signal booster broadcast/receiver system? Is there such a device that the antenna(where ever it is near by) could be plugged into it, then have a pickup on the back of the TV(s)? Like Wi-Fi for the antenna's TV signal?
> 
> This would be to eliminate running cable from the antenna to the TV(s). Our home owner's association does not allow exterior TV antennas of any kind. For example in our single floor/ranch home in the 'burbs:
> 
> We get adequate HDTV reception for MOST stations we watch broadcasting over the air with $10 RCA rabbit ears sitting on top of the back of the TV.
> 
> If we hang the same antenna from the top of the ceiling using dental floss, aimed the same direction, we get noticeably better reception. Higher is better!
> 
> It would be nice to put a good quality TV antenna high in the attic, or even hidden high up in an evergreen tree outside in the back yard. But running new coax cable is the last thing I want to do.


I don't think there is anything quite like this in the way you are asking that just transmits the antenna signal to your tv set.

However, you could buy one of the HDHomeRun type tuners, and mount that remotely in an attic hooked right directly up there with the antenna. Then, it can be watched on a tv set that has DLNA, or using your pc or other device that uses DLNA.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=194ZN8RERNS8WP29100Q

P.S. Your home owners association can NOT ban outdoor antennas per US FEDERAL law. They MUST allow you to install an outdoor antenna if you so choose to do so. https://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-reception-devices-rule


----------



## Ken.F

Primestar31 said:


> However, you could buy one of the HDHomeRun type tuners, and mount that remotely in an attic hooked right directly up there with the antenna. Then, it can be watched on a tv set that has DLNA, or using your pc or other device that uses DLNA.


 HDHomeRun tuners need a power source and an ethernet cable connected to the home network. If you need to run an ethernet cable into the attic for the tuner you might as well just run coax for the antenna instead.


----------



## SFischer1

Ken.F said:


> HDHomeRun tuners need a power source and an ethernet cable connected to the home network. If you need to run an ethernet cable into the attic for the tuner you might as well just run coax for the antenna instead.


Or a Ethernet to wireless box or a Ethernet to power line adaptor. But having power in the attic is required.

Options are pricey for sure. But a HDHR tuners come two or three to a box so two devices can be driven at once. 

SHF


----------



## Primestar31

Well ANYTHING as he described would need power at the antenna, even if his mythical wireless-beaming antenna preamp type device existed...

You couldn't run it on batteries. Well, actually you could, except it would be very inconvenient.

With the HDHomeRun device, he could do POE over a single ethernet cable. That way he'd have power, and the hookup to his router. This is really the only method I can think of that even comes *close* to answering a solution to what he's asking for.


----------



## Ken.F

SFischer1 said:


> Or a Ethernet to wireless box or a Ethernet to power line adaptor. But having power in the attic is required.
> Options are pricey for sure. But a HDHR tuners come two or three to a box so two devices can be driven at once.


 Powerline adapters might work but wireless won't. I have two of them and they work very well. The three tuner "Prime" model is cable only and does not work with an antenna. The two tuner "Connect" and "Extend" models do work with an antenna.


----------



## Traveler2530

LOL! I came to the right place, you guys are great! I already have my house wired for Ethernet( instead of POTS lines ), and there's power in the attic as well. There's an Ethernet outlet near the most watched TV in the family room as well. I'll look over the "SiliconDust HDHomeRun CONNECT 2-Tuner CordCutter Over-the-Air Streaming Media Player, HDHR4-2US," I'm sure it will do the job!

As far as the HOA's rule against outdoor antennas, I'm 100% in support of their rules. They have many rules, and they are vigorously enforced. We live in one of the quickly and cheaply built "sticks and vinyl on a slab" neighborhoods littering America. We've been here almost nine years. The neighborhood was started in 2001, and is getting close to fifteen years old. 

The neighborhood still looks neat, clean, bright and shiny new. 

Thanks for the info and link to the HDHR link!


----------



## Traveler2530

I see a "gotcha." 

I was wondering how the signal got to the TV from the antenna/HDHR box in the attic. When you mentioned Ethernet, it all became clear. It needs an HDPC to work. This is OK, I have one now next to the family-room's TV with a Hauppauge 2250 dual tuner TV card in it. 

I wrongly assumed there was a small receiver I could attach only to the TV, or to each of the three TVs. 

It will work on TVs without PCs if the receiving TVs are "Smart TVs" which none of ours are.

Since Ethernet is already installed in every room, and Wi-Fi is also on, this HDHR helps. It will work. But I'll pass since I don't want to have a PC on in each place to watch TV in the family room and the two bedrooms.

Thanks again.


----------



## Primestar31

Any DLNA device (small receiver - in your words) hooked to your tv sets will work with them. It doesn't have to be a *pc*. My old WDTVLIVE unit from 6 years ago works, I think even a Roku would work, and be useful for other web stuff besides that.


----------



## SFischer1

Ken.F said:


> Powerline adapters might work but wireless won't. I have two of them and they work very well. The three tuner "Prime" model is cable only and does not work with an antenna. The two tuner "Connect" and "Extend" models do work with an antenna.


One think to consider is the heat in the attic. Thus a longer antenna coax to a lower place where power is available.

I have an old cheap wireless router that hooking up a spare HDHR was possible a plan at one time but I gave it away to a friend. All four of my HDHR tuners are available to two desktop and two laptop computers. For even CBS with 1080 only one stream signal worked with the old 54MHz router, so do not over buy.

I got a connection 100+ feet away in the clubhouse when the HOA system password just would not work. I did not think about trying a HDHR tuner.

SHF


----------



## SFischer1

Traveler2530 said:


> ...
> The neighborhood was started in 2001, and is getting close to fifteen years old.
> 
> The neighborhood still looks neat, clean, bright and shiny new.
> 
> ...


Mine looks sterile and not lived in and it was started in 1968. Shade trees, they just do not get it, of 234 units one has trees, mine. 

http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=2165469

SHF


----------



## hanesian

I have both an antenna and a HDHomerun, and both have their place. But I'd say don't make it needlessly complicated. Get a decent attic antenna to coax to your TV or receiver. If you really feel running a cable is too much for you, hire a guy. You probably won't spend much more for that than you would to buy most of the devices mentioned so far, and it's far less troublesome to use for basic OTA viewing at your TVs.




Traveler2530 said:


> I see a "gotcha."
> 
> I was wondering how the signal got to the TV from the antenna/HDHR box in the attic. When you mentioned Ethernet, it all became clear. It needs an HDPC to work. This is OK, I have one now next to the family-room's TV with a Hauppauge 2250 dual tuner TV card in it.
> 
> I wrongly assumed there was a small receiver I could attach only to the TV, or to each of the three TVs.
> 
> It will work on TVs without PCs if the receiving TVs are "Smart TVs" which none of ours are.
> 
> Since Ethernet is already installed in every room, and Wi-Fi is also on, this HDHR helps. It will work. But I'll pass since I don't want to have a PC on in each place to watch TV in the family room and the two bedrooms.
> 
> Thanks again.


----------



## wildwillie6

So I see an ad for the ChannelMaster LTE filter (http://www.channelmaster.com/TV_Antenna_LTE_Filter_p/cm-3201.htm) in my inbox, and I see that LTE filtering is now included in a preamp that has the good old 7777 in its model number (http://www.channelmaster.com/Amplify_TV_Antenna_Preamplifier_p/cm-7777hd.htm). My question is this: How do I know when I have LTE interference? (I have occasional signal problems that come and go, but never any idea what's causing them. I'm in a deep fringe area for some of my stations, > 90 air miles away.)


----------



## tylerSC

wildwillie6 said:


> So I see an ad for the ChannelMaster LTE filter (http://www.channelmaster.com/TV_Antenna_LTE_Filter_p/cm-3201.htm) in my inbox, and I see that LTE filtering is now included in a preamp that has the good old 7777 in its model number (http://www.channelmaster.com/Amplify_TV_Antenna_Preamplifier_p/cm-7777hd.htm). My question is this: How do I know when I have LTE interference? (I have occasional signal problems that come and go, but never any idea what's causing them. I'm in a deep fringe area for some of my stations, > 90 air miles away.)


If you are in a suburban area you could be near cell phone towers and perhaps subject to LTE interference. And an amp could add to the problem. But it is a bit unclear to me as well. However, both new preamps from Channel Master and Antennas Direct now come with a built in LTE filter. So it must be a concern in some locations. This new external filter from Channel Master will allow you to add LTE filtering to an existing antenna before the preamp. Or you could instead replace an old amp with the new CM-7777 Amplify or the Clearstream Juice from Antennas Direct, which both have an internal filter. Although the external filter from Channel Master would be a less expensive option.


----------



## tylerSC

It is a bit confusing since the new Channel Master preamp Amplify is also called CM-7777. I wonder if it will eventually replace the current 7777 and 7778 models, as it has adjustable gain of either 17db or 30db. Plus built in LTE and FM filtering. Seems like a good product, and so far seems to receive good reviews, although a bit pricey. The adjustable gain is a good idea, as the 30db gain of the previous 7777 is too high for most applications, and has resulted in overload problems. Not to be confused with the original 7777 with dual UHF and VHF inputs and 26db gain. Looks like they should have used different model numbers with the newer versions, to avoid confusion with the original model which was highly regarded as a good performer.


----------



## Calaveras

The spec sheet for the CM Amplify is here:

http://downloads.channelmaster.com/Sheets/Amplify+spec+sheet.pdf

I wonder if it is correct. The gain is listed as 24/12 dB and 30/17 dB on the amp itself. Which one is it?

The manufacturers never say exactly what they mean by Maximum Output. The maximum output is shown as 34dBmV. That's only -14 dBm, a very low number. If that's the output for the Spurious Free Dynamic Range then that would be the worst preamp I've seen yet.


----------



## holl_ands

LTE Filter Specs for C-M Amplify are NOT very encouraging: "770 ~ 1000 MHz > 20 dB down".
Per specs, it MAY NOT provide significant reduction against Verizon (et. al.) 4G/LTE Cell Towers in 746 - 757 MHz Band, and it doesn't sound like it's going to be very effective against AT&T (et.al.) 4G/LTE Cell Towers in the 734-746 MHz Band....and there's not much of ANYTHING that can be done to suppress actual AT&T Cell-Phone Transmissions in 704-716+ MHz Band.

OTOH: R-S LTE Filter is VERY effective in suppressing BOTH AT&T and Verizon Cell Tower signals:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81-...ew-digital-services-tower-10.html#post2587202
Effectiveness of OTHER LTE Filters:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...p1r-long-term-reliability-2.html#post38398585
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81-...amps-preamps-distro-amps-197.html#post1388395
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81-...ew-digital-services-tower-10.html#post2586162


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## holl_ands

*HOW TO FIND CELL TOWER LOCATIONS:*

If you Google "How to find Cell Tower Locations", lots of websites pop up, such as:
http://cellphones.lovetoknow.com/Cell_Phone_Tower_Locations
http://www.evdoinfo.com/content/view/3760/63
But many of these websites only show ALL Cell Towers and WE only care about LTE Towers....making them difficult to use....

For just Canadian Cell Towers:
http://www.ertyu.org/steven_nikkel/cancellsites.html

I  this one. BLUE Icons indicate that there are Multiple Towers, so CLICK on it to see larger view. CLICK on each Tower Icon to see Detail Specs, incl. TX Frequency: 
http://www.cellmapper.net/map.php
The above website lists which frequency BAND and BLOCKS each Cell Transmits on, which are identified here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTE_frequency_bands

BTW: If it's more than 5 miles away, it is NOT an Interference problem....and as close as 2-miles MAY or MAY NOT be a problem depending on their Power Level, whether LOS or NOT and where you are in the "beam"...


----------



## tylerSC

The external Channel Master LTE filter will block signals down to 700 MHz so that may be the best choice to add before a preamp. Unfortunately the Radio Shack version no longer appears to be available in the remaining stores.


----------



## holl_ands

I only found ONE ebay source for R-S 15000390 [About 40 dB Loss on 734 MHz]....but I had to play around with varying the format of the part number...and they called it a LOW PRESSURE FILTER (tee-hee):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RadioShack-1500396-4g-lte-low-pressure-filter-/391311118111

Laceys.tv is another source for LFE Filters in AUSTRALIA, offering Aerial Industries FAE60 [At least 30+ dB Loss on 734 MHz] and FAE50 [About 17 dB Loss on 734 MHz]. AUS apparently uses SAME LTE Band Freqs as North America. Insertion Loss on 698 MHz is about 3 dB:
http://online.laceys.tv/products/fae50
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...s_Filters_.compressed.pdf?7112631218396225119 [Detailed Specs & Freq Response Charts]
http://vi.vipr.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBay...5&ittenable=false&domain=ebay.com&descgauge=1

FAE60 are available for International Delivery via fol. AUS sources: [1.0 Aussie Dollar ~ 0.75 US Dollar]
http://www.radioparts.com.au/product/00761304/fae60-60db-lte-filter-694mhz-low-pass#.Vzwg6-SIxQs [A
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aerial-Indu...441743?hash=item3f6059dd4f:g:Am8AAOSwofxUdviE
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aerial-Indu...3c8e78c&pid=100005&rk=4&rkt=6&sd=272199441743

Also FAE50: [1.0 Aussie Dollar ~ 0.75 US Dollar]
http://www.radioparts.com.au/produc...ilter-694mhz-tv-fm-ch51-low-pass#.VzwhleSIxQs
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aerial-Indu...3b9a7af&pid=100009&rk=1&rkt=1&sd=272199441743

Aussie Retailer Bitek also offers several LTE Filters, but the only one that doesn't have excessive Loss on 698 MHz [or PAL instead of F-Type Connectors] is the fol:
http://www.bitek.com.au/index.php/diplexers-filters-etc/lte-filters/09altea-detail
http://www.bitek.com.au/index.php/documents/product-specs/20-09altea-spec-sheet/file [Specs & Freq. Response Charts]


----------



## wildwillie6

*Join-Tenna update?*

Perennial question, I know, but maybe someone has an update on this:

Is there a vendor currently offering a Join-Tenna or equivalent (antenna combiner that passes ~1 channel from one antenna, filters out the rest, and merges the output with an "all other channels" antenna)?

[Obviously, that's a non-technical approximation -- but it's something like that. I have a Channel 49 signal that comes from a totally different direction from my other stations, and a Channel 49 Join-Tenna works great for my neighborhood.]


----------



## Calaveras

wildwillie6 said:


> Perennial question, I know, but maybe someone has an update on this:
> 
> Is there a vendor currently offering a Join-Tenna or equivalent (antenna combiner that passes ~1 channel from one antenna, filters out the rest, and merges the output with an "all other channels" antenna)?
> 
> [Obviously, that's a non-technical approximation -- but it's something like that. I have a Channel 49 signal that comes from a totally different direction from my other stations, and a Channel 49 Join-Tenna works great for my neighborhood.]



Yes, Tin Lee Electronics makes them.

http://www.tinlee.com/MATV_headend.php?active=4#ANTENNASIGNALINJECTORS

They're expensive though but high quality. Each one is custom made.


----------



## richart

There is a seller on Ebay that sells custom made ones at a very reasonable price. His seller name is jan-jenca and he is located in Slovakia. I ordered one to combine an antenna for channel 31 which is north of me with my other antennas for the rest of the stations southeast of me. The combiner is well made and well shielded. Just so there was no confusion regarding U.S. vs European channel numbers, I specified the exact frequencies when I placed my order.


----------



## bwam

wildwillie6 said:


> Is there a vendor currently offering a Join-Tenna or equivalent (antenna combiner that passes ~1 channel from one antenna, filters out the rest, and merges the output with an "all other channels" antenna)?


http://www.antenne-komponenty.eu/english/main/product/zlucovace.html

Have ordered from Jan Jenca, emailing my order through this website provided email address:

http://www.antenne-komponenty.eu/english/main/kontakt.html

Inexpensive and well made - selective combiners perform very well. Have ordered three of them in the past year for myself and friends. Specified what channels I need on each input (a combiner may have multiple inputs).


----------



## holl_ands

tylerSC said:


> The external Channel Master LTE filter will block signals down to 700 MHz so that may be the best choice to add before a preamp. Unfortunately the Radio Shack version no longer appears to be available in the remaining stores.


C-M Amplify Specs doesn't even say how much Insertion Loss there is at 698 MHz (top of Ch51)....it ONLY sez that it suppresses 770-1000 MHz by more than 20 dB.....and says NOTHING about how much Loss there is in the critical 734-746 MHz and 746-757 MHz Cell Tower Transmission Bands BELOW the spec region....


----------



## tylerSC

The new Channel Master LTE filter is already sold out, so there must be a demand.


----------



## holl_ands

Unfortunately "specs" (such as they are) for CM LTE Filter are even LESS REVEALING than "specs" for CM7777HD Amplify Preamp....they simply state that it will "Pass" 5-699 MHz and will "Block" 700-2000 MHz [presumably a "Perfect" Filter with "only" a 1 Hz Transition Region...totally impossible], so we have NO CLUE as to HOW MUCH Attenuation is provided on the important Cell Tower Transmit Frequencies:
http://downloads.channelmaster.com/Sheets/LTE+Filter+spec+sheet.pdf
http://downloads.channelmaster.com/Sheets/3201_Instruction+Sheet.pdf

BTW it is NOT POSSIBLE to build a tiny little Filter that will have any sort of effectiveness against [mostly AT&T] Cell Phone Transmissions in 704-716 MHz Band, although it is realistic to expect significant Attenuation of the two [typ. AT&T + Verizon] Cell Tower Transmission Bands from 734-758 MHz. As shown in fol. posts, REAL Filters will have a fairly significant TRANSITION REGION from fairly low Loss on 698 MHz [RS has 4.35 dB Loss] to high Loss beginning on 734 MHz:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81-...amps-preamps-distro-amps-197.html#post1388395
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81-...ew-digital-services-tower-10.html#post2587202


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## tylerSC

And it looks like after the FCC repack these filters will need to block channels down to RF30 to prevent interference with OTA TV reception. Unless things turn out differently than currently speculated. And then there may be a return to those bulkier Low VHF antennas.


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## tylerSC

But I wonder if it is possible to design a compact Low VHF antenna such as the Clearfstream 5 which seems to work for High VHF and some UHF.


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## wildwillie6

tylerSC said:


> But I wonder if it is possible to design a compact Low VHF antenna such as the Clearfstream 5 which seems to work for High VHF and some UHF.


I know the final details won't be available for a while, but do we know what general range of channels -- after repacking -- antennas will need to handle? Say, channels 7 through 30? (The optimist in me hopes for better performance from the ability to design for a narrower range. My inner pessimist is skeptical.)


----------



## SFischer1

wildwillie6 said:


> I know the final details won't be available for a while, but do we know what general range of channels -- after repacking -- antennas will need to handle? Say, channels 7 through 30? (The optimist in me hopes for better performance from the ability to design for a narrower range. My inner pessimist is skeptical.)


It was to be 31 and up but I saw a report that it may be 29 and up. YMMV

RF 2 which is to be avoided may be in use, RF 3 is my expected lowest channel as it is in use by several stations that could have moved to UHF.

Another consideration is where the various channels transmitters are located.

They may move around mountain tops thus while you may only need one antenna pointed in one direction now, a rotor or multiple antennas may be needed.

Except for the computer designed bogus antennas being sold antenna design is not far different from decades past.

The funniest is just a ~ 10" blade and a F connector. Wow, two for $20.

SHF


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## holl_ands

tylerSC said:


> But I wonder if it is possible to design a compact Low VHF antenna such as the Clearfstream 5 which seems to work for High VHF and some UHF.


Sure, it is possible to RESCALE any Antenna to a different Operating Frequency Band, simply make ALL Dimensions (incl. wire size in the right "ballpark") LARGER by the Rescale Factor F = New Frequency / Old Frequency. Hence a typical Hi-VHF Antenna (with 21% Bandwidth) can be RESCALED so that performance at 216 MHz is moved to 88 MHz by using Rescale Factor F = 216/88 = 2.45, with performance at 174 MHz moved to 174/2.45 = 71 MHz, which works out to Upper part of Ch4 thru Ch6 Lo-VHF Antenna....and BTW (as shown in examples below) Ch2-4 will usually have nearly as much Gain, but SWR will be somewhat excessive on Ch4 and very excessive on Ch2-3.

Various OPTIMIZED Alternative Designs for Lo-VHF Band were summarized here....and NO, none of them are "compact" due to the need to be at LEAST the size of a Half-Wavelength at those much lower Freqs....damn those pesky Laws of Physics:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81-...mes-uhf-channel-repack-ota-7.html#post2772513

A-D C5 is a Single Circular Loop with a Screen Grid Reflector....the highly recommended Lo-VHF Hourglass-Loop Antennas are DUAL-LOOPs with about 3 dB higher Gain. Hence NO Reflector version would have about SAME (Bi-Directional) Gain as Rescaled C5 WITH a Reflector. And can provide even higher Gain levels as you add more and more Reflector Wires/Rods. Note that Houglass-Loop is one of those RARE Antennas that does NOT require 1/4 to 3/8-inch O.D. Elements and Reflectors in Lo-VHF Band. Relatively inexpensive AWG10/12 House Electrical Wire can be readily used. For those OTHER Antennas that require thicker Elements/Reflectors, instead of Aluminum/Copper/Steel Rods, you COULD use RG-59 Coax (Shield wires form the Elements) strung on a suitable Frame....and there is NO need to strip Insulation at VHF Freqs. I provided Optimized Designs for a few (mostly SINGLE CHANNEL) Lo-VHF Circular and Square Loops here [towards the bottom]:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/vhfloop


----------



## tylerSC

holl_ands said:


> Sure, it is possible to RESCALE any Antenna to a different Operating Frequency Band, simply make ALL Dimensions (incl. wire size in the right "ballpark") LARGER by the Rescale Factor F = New Frequency / Old Frequency. Hence a typical Hi-VHF Antenna (with 21% Bandwidth) can be RESCALED so that performance at 216 MHz is moved to 88 MHz by using Rescale Factor F = 216/88 = 2.45, with performance at 174 MHz moved to 174/2.45 = 71 MHz, which works out to Upper part of Ch4 thru Ch6 Lo-VHF Antenna....and BTW (as shown in examples below) Ch2-4 will usually have nearly as much Gain, but SWR will be somewhat excessive on Ch4 and very excessive on Ch2-3.
> 
> Various OPTIMIZED Alternative Designs for Lo-VHF Band were summarized here....and NO, none of them are "compact" due to the need to be at LEAST the size of a Half-Wavelength at those much lower Freqs....damn those pesky Laws of Physics:
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81-...mes-uhf-channel-repack-ota-7.html#post2772513
> 
> A-D C5 is a Single Circular Loop with a Screen Grid Reflector....the highly recommended Lo-VHF Hourglass-Loop Antennas are DUAL-LOOPs with about 3 dB higher Gain. Hence NO Reflector version would have about SAME (Bi-Directional) Gain as Rescaled C5 WITH a Reflector. And can provide even higher Gain levels as you add more and more Reflector Wires/Rods. Note that Houglass-Loop is one of those RARE Antennas that does NOT require 1/4 to 3/8-inch O.D. Elements and Reflectors in Lo-VHF Band. Relatively inexpensive AWG10/12 House Electrical Wire can be readily used. For those OTHER Antennas that require thicker Elements/Reflectors, instead of Aluminum/Copper/Steel Rods, you COULD use RG-59 Coax (Shield wires form the Elements) strung on a suitable Frame....and there is NO need to strip Insulation at VHF Freqs. I provided Optimized Designs for a few (mostly SINGLE CHANNEL) Lo-VHF Circular and Square Loops here [towards the bottom]:
> http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/vhfloop


Just noticed there is a new selection of GE brand indoor antennas at Walmart, including the rebranded Bar 200 which had previously received good reviews as their original rectangular flat panel. And they have a small attic or outside basic type for UHF and VHF, as well as indoor Optima and Stealthtenna. Plus also Clearstream 2V, and Terk, RCA, and Mohu flat panels. So they seem to have good selection of antennas and OTA accessories, which helps fill the void from closed down Radioshack locations.


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## holl_ands

I was surprised to see my Local FRY's ELECTRONICS store no longer had the BIG COMBO Antennas on the sales floor anymore...I didn't ask if they had anything in the "back room", but perhaps they're relying on Internet Only orders......

Unfortunately, except for the C2V (which only provides about 10 dBi UHF Gain and 2.7 to 3.2 dBi Hi-VHF Gain) and the Terk HDTVa (about 7 dBi UHF Gain and 2 dBi Hi-VHF Gain), the Flat Panels are ALL TOO SMALL to adequately cover the New UHF Band (470-698 MHz)...providing REDUCED Gain on the lower Channels, which will become even more important as the Upper UHF Channels are re-purposed for Cell Phone use.

Specs (yes, actual SPECS) for W-G HD-1080 best illustrates this "TOO SMALL" problem, with NEGATIVE 4.0 to 4.7 dBd Gain [-2.2 to -2.5 dBi] in the Hi-VHF Band:
http://www.winegard.com/kbase/uploads/HD-1080.pdf

OTOH, although I haven't seen any SPECS or MODELS [other than DB-2e], based on published Antenna WIDTHS and Photos, I believe that SOME 2-Bay Bowtie Antennas (there MAY be others), such as A-D DB-2e, Channel-Master CM-4220 and Solid Signal Extreme HDB2X [Max Gain = 7.7 dB = 9.9 dBi] are BIG enough [about 2-ft Wide with 8 to 10-in Whiskers] to provide close to 10 to 13-dbi UHF Gain....but these ALL use a PCB Balun which significantly degrades Hi-VHF performance. If the Antenna is Hacked to replace the PCB Balun with the usual Cylindrical Transformer 4:1 Balun, then Hi-VHF performance would probably be closer to mclapp's DIY M2 (9.5"x9.0") 2-Bay Bowtie. Note that my OPTIMIZED DIY H2 (10.5"x12.25") with 11 Reflector Rods is even Larger, with even higher Gain in UHF and esp. Hi-VHF Bands:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/2bayrefl
Results for the OLD A-D DB-2 (at bottom of webpage) illustrates the "TOO SMALL" problem yet again...unfortunately most FLAT Antennas suffer from the same problem....and don't even have a Reflector to suppress Multipath.....
A-D actually publishes SPECS for their DB2e...note the WIDTH (23-in) and the fact that they do NOT claim any performance in the Hi-VHF Band, no doubt due to the use of a PCB Balun. To provide a minimal level of Hi-VHF performance, A-D offers a VHF Dipole Kit that can be used with ANY UHF Antenna:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/Technical Data PDF's/DB2E-TDS.pdf
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/VHF-Antenna-Kit.html

Among the typically offered choices, the "Best" Indoor choices would be something that is DIRECTIONAL in order to reduce Multipath, such as MOST of the 4-Bay Bowtie Antennas [I used to hide one behind a big Chair in the Living Room], SOME of the 2-Bay Bowties and then A-D C2V, followed by the Terk HDTVa (with retractable Rabbit-Ears for VHF, but is only available in a Amplified version). After that you're only left with Bi-Directional choices, such as whatever RESEMBLES the old Rabbit-Ears/Loop Antenna, with Rabbit-Ears for Hi-VHF and an Optimum "Loop" size for New UHF Band is about 8.5-in O.D. if Circular and Total Circumference of about 27.6-in if Rectangular or if Square 6.9-in per side:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/uhfcircular

If simple Rabbit-Ears (or A-D VHF Kit) are insufficient, about the only "Indoor" Antenna would be to find room for the fairly expensive A-D C5 (Hi-VHF Circular Loop with Screen Grid Reflector)....or one of the Hi-VHF (and/or Lo-VHF) DIY Projects described here:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops
Or one of the Hi-VHF 2-Bay or 4-Bay Bowtie DIY Projects described towards the bottom of the fol. webpage:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay

*AND YES, THE "BEST" INDOOR ANTENNA IS TO FIND A HOME FOR A "PROPER" OUTDOOR ANTENNA.*


----------



## tylerSC

Once the FCC repack is officially announced, hopefully Antennas Direct and other manufacturers may redesign some of their antennas as necessary to optimize for the new lower frequencies, especially if Low VHF may be needed. I have always thought the Terk HDTVa was a good indoor antenna, and I believe you can remove the inline amp if it is not needed. And last time I checked about a month ago, Fry's still sells outdoor antennas from Channel Master and Antennas Direct, although they seem to have phased out Winegard. And they also sell a bunch of cheap Chinese antennas that I usually do not recommend, as well as Terk and RCA indoor models. I like Fry's but their nearest location to me is a 2 hour drive down in Georgia. But I do appreciate that Walmart tries to have a good inventory of antennas and accessories, and they now seem to have expanded the indoor inventory with the GE brand. And there is also a new GE Bar 400 antenna at Best Buy, although their best antenna is probably a Clearstream 4V to place outside or in the attic.


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## holl_ands

*UHF SOLID-SIGNAL HD HORIZON X10, DOUBLE SLOT ANTENNA (Approximation):*

In case you missed it, I uploaded 4nec2 Analysis Results for subject Antenna in Nov2015:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...-mi-antenna-far-out-country.html#post38766505


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## holl_ands

*STELLAR LABS HI-VHF 9-EL FD-YAGI MODIFICATIONS ANALYZED:*

Also in case you missed it, I uploaded 4nec2 Analysis Results for subject Antenna in Dec2015:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...er-8-bay-bowtie-no-signal-3.html#post40023146


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## holl_ands

FYI: This year (so far) I have also uploaded 4nec2 Results for the fol. TYPES of Antennas:

1) Vertically-Stacked 2xFF6 (6-Bay Bowties):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/stacked/verticallystackeduhf

2) Additional Hi-VHF Yagis with 6, 16, 18 & 20 Elements:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis

3) Numerous OMNI-Directional Candidates for a Single Channel TRANSMIT (i.e. Low SWR) Antenna on 490 MHz. More work is planned to spin off *Higher Gain* FM Band and some TV Band Omnis:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/omni


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## OrlandoD

Hi everyone. I'm seeking the advice from some of you experts in this forum if you don't mind. 
I'm in northern palm beach and just cut the cord. I'm using an HDHomeRun Connect as an OTA tuner. Anyways, I just installed this Yagi style RCA antenna ( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0024R4B5C/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 )in the attic pointed SSW using a signal meter as a guide but a few of the channels such as 34.1 are too unstable/weak. I'm hoping a better antenna can help. My attic opening is 28" with an inside hieght of around 3' so I was considering the Channel Master CM-4221HD. 

I'm no expert so thought I'd check here first to see if there are better attic antenna options or other ideas. Getting some of the further stations like 23.1 (I know that's probably asking for too much) would be a nice plus. I currently receive about 31 stable channels in total.

Thx


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## SFischer1

OrlandoD said:


> Hi everyone. I'm seeking the advice from some of you experts in this forum if you don't mind.
> I'm in northern palm beach and just cut the cord. I'm using an HDHomeRun Connect as an OTA tuner. Anyways, I just installed this Yagi style RCA antenna ( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0024R4B5C/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 )in the attic pointed SSW using a signal meter as a guide but a few of the channels such as 34.1 are too unstable/weak. I'm hoping a better antenna can help. My attic opening is 28" with an inside hieght of around 3' so I was considering the Channel Master CM-4221HD.
> 
> I'm no expert so thought I'd check here first to see if there are better attic antenna options or other ideas. Getting some of the further stations like 23.1 (I know that's probably asking for too much) would be a nice plus. I currently receive about 31 stable channels in total.
> 
> Thx


 The experts will soon be here, a few things I can say.

Attic antennas are problematical at best, even the best ones may be hit and miss.
 
The antenna you have is a directional one but you have many stations in different directions. Without a rotor you must chose a direction like your choice of SSW.

Any antenna works better outdoors as high as possible but if you cannot have an outside antenna you cannot. HOA rules must allow an outside antenna. I have a roof over my unit and permission was needed to attach my antenna to the bottom of the HOA's roof.

With your HDHR you can get a list of all the channels and their strengths at once.

 Http://www.silicondust.com/hdhomerun/hdhomerun_development.pdf 

See Channel Scan.


WLTV 23.1 is 2Edge which is unlikely.

WTVX 34.1 being unstable, if you lived near me I would say that it is Multipath but Florida is flat, are there any high buildings nearby?

-----------------------

Be aware that the higher RF channels will be disappearing in a couple of years. Here in San Francisco those above RF 29 will be gone and those that remain may (Likely) change RF channels.

SHF


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## OrlandoD

SFischer1 said:


> The experts will soon be here, a few things I can say.
> 
> Attic antennas are problematical at best, even the best ones may be hit and miss.
> 
> The antenna you have is a directional one but you have many stations in different directions. Without a rotor you must chose a direction like your choice of SSW.
> 
> Any antenna works better outdoors as high as possible but if you cannot have an outside antenna you cannot. HOA rules must allow an outside antenna. I have a roof over my unit and permission was needed to attach my antenna to the bottom of the HOA's roof.
> 
> With your HDHR you can get a list of all the channels and their strengths at once.
> 
> Http://www.silicondust.com/hdhomerun/hdhomerun_development.pdf
> 
> See Channel Scan.
> 
> 
> WLTV 23.1 is 2Edge which is unlikely.
> 
> WTVX 34.1 being unstable, if you lived near me I would say that it is Multipath but Florida is flat, are there any high buildings nearby?
> 
> -----------------------
> 
> Be aware that the higher RF channels will be disappearing in a couple of years. Here in San Francisco those above RF 29 will be gone and those that remain may (Likely) change RF channels.
> 
> SHF


Thx for the input. I ran a channel scan yesterday morning and picked up around 60 channels including 23.1 though that channel as well as many of the others were ultimately not view-able.

34.1 is the local CW channel that sits to my NW and there are no tall buildings nearby. 

I ordered a Wineguard LNA-200 booster to give it a try but I'm thinking it's not gonna really help. I'll have it tomorrow.

I'm in a single family home in an older, non-HOA neighborhood. I don't believe an outdoor antenna would be an issue and I'm open and actually leaning towards using one but it will be another project among many that will have to wait, therefore an attic antenna will have to suffice temporarily.

So the question at this point would be, is there a better choice of antenna that I could use in the attic at the moment that will double as the choice for later use outdoors? Or are we talking 2 different antennas for 2 different tasks? 

BTW, here is my channel scan log from the HDHR:


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## A J

SFischer1 said:


> Attic antennas are problematical at best, even the best ones may be hit and miss.


Very true.

I've used an UHF/Hi-VHF attic antenna with pre-amp for over 5 years with excellent results. But, I located the "hot spot" in my attic by moving the antenna around while my wife monitored the signal strength meter on the TV. Often, just a foot sideways or vertically can make a huge difference. I clamped the antenna to an old camera tripod which made positioning it easy. It still sits on that tripod.

Once I nailed the hot spot, I found that signal strength was still marginal on the farthest must-have (CBS) station (37 miles to the tower) and pixel dropouts frequently occurred. So, I added a pre-amp near the antenna and that solved the problem. 

I was glad to avoid having to mount an antenna on the roof, which would have required grounding it and being subject to wind damage (a significant concern in summer storms where I live).


----------



## matonanjin

A J said:


> Very true.
> 
> I've used an UHF/Hi-VHF attic antenna with pre-amp for over 5 years with excellent results. But, I located the "hot spot" in my attic by moving the antenna around while my wife monitored the signal strength meter on the TV. Often, just a foot sideways or vertically can make a huge difference. _* I clamped the antenna to an old camera tripod which made positioning it easy. It still sits on that tripod.*_
> 
> Once I nailed the hot spot, I found that signal strength was still marginal on the farthest must-have (CBS) station (37 miles to the tower) and pixel dropouts frequently occurred. So, I added a pre-amp near the antenna and that solved the problem.
> 
> I was glad to avoid having to mount an antenna on the roof, which would have required grounding it and being subject to wind damage (a significant concern in summer storms where I live).


I just came here to start studying about putting an attic antenna in my house and this is the first thing I see. As a retired photographer with several tripods lying around I found this a great idea. And for at least one tripod its years of service is not over. Thanks!

And I also live in an area of summer storms and so don't want to go the roof antenna route. Although where I live, on an acreage, there are no legal restrictions.

Thanks again.


----------



## OrlandoD

A J said:


> I was glad to avoid having to mount an antenna on the roof, which would have required grounding it and being subject to wind damage (a significant concern in summer storms where I live).


Does having the antenna post about 3 ft deep into the ground/soil qualify as adequate grounding?

What kind of summer storms are we talking about here? I get almost daily thunderstorms which don't worry me in regards to an antenna. It's the hurricanes we gotta watch for and if one hits, the antenna is the least of my worries.


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## ADTech

> Does having the antenna post about 3 ft deep into the ground/soil qualify as adequate grounding?


According to NEC, no.


----------



## matonanjin

OrlandoD said:


> What kind of summer storms are we talking about here? I get almost daily thunderstorms which don't worry me in regards to an antenna.


I don't know about AJ. I'm talking about spring lighting storms. I am paranoid about frying my receiver, etc. Back in the day of the Big Dish I had to replace an entire entertainment system. Even with a sufficient ground I'm still not convinced it will protect my system.


----------



## OrlandoD

matonanjin said:


> I don't know about AJ. I'm talking about spring lighting storms. I am paranoid about frying my receiver, etc. Back in the day of the Big Dish I had to replace an entire entertainment system. Even with a sufficient ground I'm still not convinced it will protect my system.


Oh I see. I grew up years back with pole mounted antennas everywhere and cant recall lighting damage from antenna strikes. I've seen plenty of damage from telephone and powerline strikes though.

As a matter of fact, I'm watching a thunderstorm approach at this moment and can hear a plenty of thunder and spotting lots of crazy ground strikes.

It turns out I'm under a lightning and wind advisory.


----------



## OrlandoD

ADTech said:


> According to NEC, no.


So they want a grounding rod pounded like 6-10 ft deep or something, huh? I'm not to crazy about that. I'll see what kind of luck I can push in the attic first.


----------



## matonanjin

OrlandoD said:


> Oh I see. I grew up years back with pole mounted antennas everywhere and cant recall lighting damage from antenna strikes. I've seen plenty of damage from telephone and powerline strikes though.


Well the same here, actually. I grew up on the Rosebud reservation in South Dakota. And I remember my grandparents had an outside antenna. Not a roof-mount one but a metal tower that probably went 40' in the air. A perfect lightning attraction! All so we could get one B&W channel with a horrible picture.  But we never had a problem with lightening. And there were some horrible storms out on that prairie. So I guess my using "paranoid" to describe me up above is accurate.


----------



## SFischer1

OrlandoD said:


> Thx for the input. I ran a channel scan yesterday morning and picked up around 60 channels including 23.1 though that channel as well as many of the others were ultimately not view-able.
> 
> 34.1 is the local CW channel that sits to my NW and there are no tall buildings nearby.
> 
> I ordered a Wineguard LNA-200 booster to give it a try but I'm thinking it's not gonna really help. I'll have it tomorrow.
> 
> I'm in a single family home in an older, non-HOA neighborhood. I don't believe an outdoor antenna would be an issue and I'm open and actually leaning towards using one but it will be another project among many that will have to wait, therefore an attic antenna will have to suffice temporarily.
> 
> So the question at this point would be, is there a better choice of antenna that I could use in the attic at the moment that will double as the choice for later use outdoors? Or are we talking 2 different antennas for 2 different tasks?
> 
> BTW, here is my channel scan log from the HDHR:


If another expert today does not arrive I will ping the one that often replies tomorrow. New passwords may delay him. He is an antenna expert. I do not want to step on his words as they will be better. He reads the TVFool reports and understands much more than me.

Adding a booster may or may not help or make things worse. Likely worse but wait for the expert.

Do you have multiple locations you can use in your attic? A different location may help, check for metals and make sure you do not have a metal roof like I do which shut down all my attic antennas.

http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=2165469 

I think the version of the HDHR you have has only one antenna terminal. My older HDHR has two, one for each tuner. I have two different antennas pointing in two directions which is the only way to use multiple antennas that will work.

If you have a wireless router then you can go into your attic with a laptop and check the stations as you move the antenna. Single station at a time, you may find differing locations for different stations.

Outdoors it will be much better.

The antenna expert is the person to suggest antennas. I would stick with the one you have and move it around.

BTW, posting an image is not as good as posting the link to your TVfool report, more information is available by clicking on it which you cannot do with an image. Also the Map version may be useful, be sure to click the box
"*Show lines pointing to each transmitter"*

SHF

EDIT: Sorry, here is the link for the map version. 

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90


----------



## Ken.F

SFischer1 said:


> If you have a wireless router then you can go into your attic with a laptop and check the stations as you move the antenna. Single station at a time, you may find differing locations for different stations.


 If you have an Android phone or tablet the HDHomeRun Signal Meter app is pretty handy too.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.zaren


----------



## Calaveras

OrlandoD said:


> I'm in northern palm beach and just cut the cord. I'm using an HDHomeRun Connect as an OTA tuner. Anyways, I just installed this Yagi style RCA antenna ( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0024R4B5C/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 )in the attic pointed SSW using a signal meter as a guide but a few of the channels such as 34.1 are too unstable/weak. I'm hoping a better antenna can help. My attic opening is 28" with an inside hieght of around 3' so I was considering the Channel Master CM-4221HD.



All your stations are what I'd call Strong to Extremely Strong so "too weak" is not the issue. The problem is that your stations are in two different directions roughly 90 degrees apart. As already mentioned you could use a rotor or use two of those RCA antennas pointed in the correct directions using an A/B switch.

Is there some reason why you're limited to an attic antenna?


----------



## lohertz

OrlandoD said:


> Hi everyone. I'm seeking the advice from some of you experts in this forum if you don't mind.
> I'm in northern palm beach and just cut the cord. I'm using an HDHomeRun Connect as an OTA tuner. Anyways, I just installed this Yagi style RCA antenna ( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0024R4B5C/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 )in the attic pointed SSW using a signal meter as a guide but a few of the channels such as 34.1 are too unstable/weak. I'm hoping a better antenna can help. My attic opening is 28" with an inside hieght of around 3' so I was considering the Channel Master CM-4221HD.
> 
> I'm no expert so thought I'd check here first to see if there are better attic antenna options or other ideas. Getting some of the further stations like 23.1 (I know that's probably asking for too much) would be a nice plus. I currently receive about 31 stable channels in total.
> 
> Thx


The problem is not the antenna, it's the attic. An ideal situation for your case would be an omni-directional antenna (on the roof) as the signals are very strong in your location. I wouldn't be surprised if you put a pair of rabbit ears out the window and picked up more stations.
Actually, I have an antenna very similar to yours. What you have is a medium directional yagi. The purpose of any antenna is to amplify the signals in the air. That is why most antennas have a +(some value)dB for UHF and VHF frequencies.

The purpose of any amplifier, is to over come the signal loss after the antenna has the signal. Meaning, you will lose signal (introduce noise) into the signal with connectors, cables, splitters, etc. For every 100 feet of RG6 cable you will loss 6dB of signal. For every two way splitter, you will lose 3-3.5dB of signal, if not more.

An amplifier will not improve your antenna's ability to clearly receive the transmission from the tower. If there is no signal in your attic, no amplifier will improve your reception/signal quality.

My suggestion would be to place your current antenna on the ground, outside pointed West. Yes WEST. You should be able to pick up the signals coming from both directions. 

Having an antenna in an attic (no matter which one you have) is so unpredictable due to the number of variables, I dont think anyone will be able to give you a recommendation that will work. There's plenty of advice (move it around, point it different directions, etc.)

Number 1 solution to 95% of reception problems where the antenna is in the attic is to put the antenna on the roof.


----------



## SFischer1

Calaveras said:


> ...
> 
> Is there some reason why you're limited to an attic antenna?


He says that an outside antenna in the future is possible. When was the last time palm beach was hit by an hurricane? That would also drive the attic solution.

As he is using a HDHomeRun Ethernet tuner (Like me) then adding a second HDHR would be perhaps the best solution, A/B switch first to verify the best antenna directions and the stations available in each.

Then with the same software I am using with four HDHR tuners and two antennas a great DVR is created. Also several live viewing solutions. (A networked HTPC computer is needed.)

With just the existing antenna the stations can be collected, he has done one direction SSW already and the result is attached to one of his posts. Signal Quality must be 50% or higher to receive a station.

Due to a changed settings in my main user account I cannot look at that report quickly, soon I will. (After the German Mystery with English subtitles is over.)

SHF


----------



## lohertz

Here is my antenna (mounted on the roof of my two story home) Medium Directional Yagi
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DQU5TLQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Here is my pre-amp (Winegard Pre-amp +16db)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DQN3R9O/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Here is my tv fool
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=51347f739ea786

I'm driving 5 tuners - 3 TVs and 1 HDHomerun with dual tuners

I receive every RF channel in the LOS (line of sight) column with the exception of RF 4

A channel scan receives 131 channels in total.


----------



## lohertz

SFischer1 said:


> He says that an outside antenna in the future is possible. When was the last time palm beach was hit by an hurricane? That would also drive the attic solution


Weather happens. I still see DirectTV and DishTV dishes on roof tops in Florida. Doesn't really justify the trouble to work around in an attic when the solution is clear.


----------



## OrlandoD

SFischer1 said:


> If another expert today does not arrive I will ping the one that often replies tomorrow. New passwords may delay him. He is an antenna expert. I do not want to step on his words as they will be better. He reads the TVFool reports and understands much more than me.
> 
> Adding a booster may or may not help or make things worse. Likely worse but wait for the expert.
> 
> Do you have multiple locations you can use in your attic? A different location may help, check for metals and make sure you do not have a metal roof like I do which shut down all my attic antennas.
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=2165469
> 
> I think the version of the HDHR you have has only one antenna terminal. My older HDHR has two, one for each tuner. I have two different antennas pointing in two directions which is the only way to use multiple antennas that will work.
> 
> If you have a wireless router then you can go into your attic with a laptop and check the stations as you move the antenna. Single station at a time, you may find differing locations for different stations.
> 
> Outdoors it will be much better.
> 
> The antenna expert is the person to suggest antennas. I would stick with the one you have and move it around.
> 
> BTW, posting an image is not as good as posting the link to your TVfool report, more information is available by clicking on it which you cannot do with an image. Also the Map version may be useful, be sure to click the box
> "*Show lines pointing to each transmitter"*
> 
> SHF
> 
> EDIT: Sorry, here is the link for the map version.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90


Yes my HDHR has one coax input.

Here is a link to my TVFool report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e2cbec81fc45ca
I can't seem to get a link to the map version to share.

I could try a few location in the attic, maybe over the weekend i'll do that. Only obsticle in my attic is the foil air ducts. The roof has a lower than average pitch so the air ducting is in the way everywhere if that matters.

I did use a wireless signal meter app to adjust the antenna while in the attic.



Ken.F said:


> If you have an Android phone or tablet the HDHomeRun Signal Meter app is pretty handy too.
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.zaren


Already have and tried it. Very nifty.



Calaveras said:


> All your stations are what I'd call Strong to Extremely Strong so "too weak" is not the issue. The problem is that your stations are in two different directions roughly 90 degrees apart. As already mentioned you could use a rotor or use two of those RCA antennas pointed in the correct directions using an A/B switch.
> 
> Is there some reason why you're limited to an attic antenna?


I'm not to crazy about the A/B switch. That would add to an already complicated setup and ruin the WAF. My main concern would be the channels to the SSW.



lohertz said:


> The problem is not the antenna, it's the attic. An ideal situation for your case would be an omni-directional antenna (on the roof) as the signals are very strong in your location. I wouldn't be surprised if you put a pair of rabbit ears out the window and picked up more stations.
> Actually, I have an antenna very similar to yours. What you have is a medium directional yagi. The purpose of any antenna is to amplify the signals in the air. That is why most antennas have a +(some value)dB for UHF and VHF frequencies.
> 
> The purpose of any amplifier, is to over come the signal loss after the antenna has the signal. Meaning, you will lose signal (introduce noise) into the signal with connectors, cables, splitters, etc. For every 100 feet of RG6 cable you will loss 6dB of signal. For every two way splitter, you will lose 3-3.5dB of signal, if not more.
> 
> An amplifier will not improve your antenna's ability to clearly receive the transmission from the tower. If there is no signal in your attic, no amplifier will improve your reception/signal quality.
> 
> My suggestion would be to place your current antenna on the ground, outside pointed West. Yes WEST. You should be able to pick up the signals coming from both directions.
> 
> Having an antenna in an attic (no matter which one you have) is so unpredictable due to the number of variables, I dont think anyone will be able to give you a recommendation that will work. There's plenty of advice (move it around, point it different directions, etc.)
> 
> Number 1 solution to 95% of reception problems where the antenna is in the attic is to put the antenna on the roof.


I like your idea of omni-directional antenna facing west. It could be a suitable compromise. Should I use my existing antenna or get one better purposed for outdoors/omni-directional? I have a little more than a week to return mine.

I currently only hooked up to 50 ft of RG6 and no splitters.

I'm not super excited about post mounting an antenna high up at the moment. Something like a simple roof mount I could do sooner and have it face west. If moving it out of the roof is the best solution then I need a little help choosing the right antenna and roof mount.



SFischer1 said:


> He says that an outside antenna in the future is possible. When was the last time palm beach was hit by an hurricane? That would also drive the attic solution.
> 
> As he is using a HDHomeRun Ethernet tuner (Like me) then adding a second HDHR would be perhaps the best solution, A/B switch first to verify the best antenna directions and the stations available in each.
> 
> Then with the same software I am using with four HDHR tuners and two antennas a great DVR is created. Also several live viewing solutions. (A networked HTPC computer is needed.)
> 
> With just the existing antenna the stations can be collected, he has done one direction SSW already and the result is attached to one of his posts. Signal Quality must be 50% or higher to receive a station.
> 
> Due to a changed settings in my main user account I cannot look at that report quickly, soon I will. (After the German Mystery with English subtitles is over.)
> 
> SHF


Last Hurricane to affect Palm Beach was Wilma in 2005. I'm not worried about that too much. A direct hit by a decent hurricane will take a lot more than just my antenna from my yard. LOL

I'm considering a 2nd HDHR i the future once their new DVR app is released. The setup you speak of with multiple tuners, antennas and A/B switch is not what I'm hoping for.


----------



## OrlandoD

lohertz said:


> Here is my antenna (mounted on the roof of my two story home) Medium Directional Yagi
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DQU5TLQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> Here is my pre-amp (Winegard Pre-amp +16db)
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DQN3R9O/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> Here is my tv fool
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=51347f739ea786
> 
> I'm driving 5 tuners - 3 TVs and 1 HDHomerun with dual tuners
> 
> I receive every RF channel in the LOS (line of sight) column with the exception of RF 4
> 
> A channel scan receives 131 channels in total.


That antenna appears similar to mine. I have that same amp on order. You have a lot of LOS channels and I noticed you have 35 ft of height. 131 is a lot of OTA channels, wow.

It sounding more and more like I need to take my antenna outside.


----------



## SFischer1

lohertz said:


> Here is my antenna (mounted on the roof of my two story home) Medium Directional Yagi
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DQU5TLQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> Here is my pre-amp (Winegard Pre-amp +16db)
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DQN3R9O/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> Here is my tv fool
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=51347f739ea786
> 
> I'm driving 5 tuners - 3 TVs and 1 HDHomerun with dual tuners
> 
> I receive every RF channel in the LOS (line of sight) column with the exception of RF 4
> 
> A channel scan receives 131 channels in total.


Your antenna looks very good as the VHF-Hi RF channels may be in use more after the big RF crunch. Maybe VHF-Lo also, we may not know for a while. Stations being in one direction is great.

I do like the outdoor solution pointed in the middle of the two directions for the OP. The antenna that he posted, the Channel Master CM-4221HD being less directional might do better. But the angle looks too extreme and two antennas may be needed outdoors.

SHF


----------



## SFischer1

OrlandoD said:


> Yes my HDHR has one coax input.
> ...
> I'm considering a 2nd HDHR i the future once their new DVR app is released. The setup you speak of with multiple tuners, antennas and A/B switch is not what I'm hoping for.


The software I am using on my HTPC has no problems with four HDHR tuners, three on my main antenna and one on a barely usable antenna in the attic for one station.

And with another tuner with two antenna connections, main and third antenna for a station in a funny direction (Points East South when the transmitter is North East) plus another tuner with defective software on my main antenna.

Great Program listings cost $25 / Year which are required and the program has a watch list that it matches up with the program listings and schedules a capture unless I have seen the program which data is kept in a data base going back to January 2009.

Captures can be automatically scheduled just after the program listings are downloaded. Yes it takes some setup to select what streams are recorded with what tuner going to the next available free tuner. The match list order is important along with the tuner stream order. But as my stations are mainly in one direction it is doable. When the great channel crunch it will need to all be done again as so many channels will change.

Yes I watch a lot of non main network programs and am falling behind as my N.A.S has 300+ GB of programs.

SHF


----------



## OrlandoD

SFischer1 said:


> Your antenna looks very good as the VHF-Hi RF channels may be in use more after the big RF crunch. Maybe VHF-Lo also, we may not know for a while. Stations being in one direction is great.
> 
> I do like the outdoor solution pointed in the middle of the two directions for the OP. The antenna that he posted, the Channel Master CM-4221HD being less directional might do better. But the angle looks too extreme and two antennas may be needed outdoors.
> 
> SHF


 If I go outdoor I'd rather go with the CM-4228HD. Only problem is that wont fit in the attic so I'd be left with no OTA till I get it mounted outside. I'd rather get my money back on my present antenna if I'm not going to use it later. Now I'll ponder on this a bit.


----------



## SFischer1

OrlandoD said:


> If I go outdoor I'd rather go with the CM-4228HD. Only problem is that wont fit in the attic so I'd be left with no OTA till I get it mounted outside. I'd rather get my money back on my present antenna if I'm not going to use it later. Now I'll ponder on this a bit.


I am familiar with the pattern for the CM4228HD and it is more directional than the antenna you have. There is a little lobe on each side near 90 degrees and I got lucky in that one of the little lobe is just right for the main secondary direction for stations. Pointing the CM4228HD due west may put most stations out of the main lobe.

http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl/cm4228hd;jsessionid=rijfmne704.frog_s 

The plots I remember are #24 , #25 and #26. Not good for pointing west.


The Channel Master CM-4221HD may have a better pattern for pointing west. The CM4228HD higher gain you do not need unless you are driving a lot of tuners with many splitters (I use an eight way distribution amplifier after my main preamp.)

I have never seen the plot for the CM-4221HD.

SHF


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Pointing ANY directional antenna due west is a pretty good way to get nothing very well. Might as well use an omni which, of course, receives eqaully poorly in all directions.

If you want an antenna that receives in (generally) opposite directions, you need a bi-directional antenna that has no front-to-back ratio. There are two models that come to mind that are both available in retail stores or online: The Antennas Direct ClearStream 2V (don't install the reflector) and the Mohu Sky (Amazon and Best Buy have their own versions, skip the amplifier). Neither are budget friendly but either has a good chance of working out of the box (edit: ....and out of the attic, of course).


----------



## OrlandoD

ProjectSHO89 said:


> Pointing ANY directional antenna due west is a pretty good way to get nothing very well. Might as well use an omni which, of course, receives eqaully poorly in all directions.
> 
> If you want an antenna that receives in (generally) opposite directions, you need a bi-directional antenna that has no front-to-back ratio. There are two models that come to mind that are both available in retail stores or online: The Antennas Direct ClearStream 2V (don't install the reflector) and the Mohu Sky (Amazon and Best Buy have their own versions, skip the amplifier). Neither are budget friendly but either has a good chance of working out of the box.


If my local signals are relatively strong, as stated previously, then the omni facing west may do a suitable job.

Which version of the Direct ClearStream 2V are you referring too, the single stack (60 mi) or the side-by-side double (70 mi) which costs significantly more?

So now I must decide whether to go for the CM-4221HD or the ClearStream2V next. The ClearStream appears to be better suited for both VHF and UHF and includes roof mount. I don't mind the extra cost if it's worth it.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

> then the omni facing west may do a suitable job.


An omni has no direction to face. That suggestion was made regarding the use of your existing RCA small combo which is moderately directional. Pointing it to the west would assure that it receives nothing very well, everything would have to come in from the sides which may or may not work. It certainly isn't how the antenna was intended to be used even it it would happen to work.

There is only one C2V, the larger unit is the C4V. FWIW, mileage ratings are pretty useless and are generally figments of the marketing department's collective imaginations. On UHF, each model will have significantly different beamwidth patterns and the C4V will have some interesting side lobes. Someone would have to look at the relative angles of your plot and compare them to the antenna's patterns to make sure that you don't accidentally hit one of the nulls with a required channel. The C2V doesn't have this issue since it has a very broad and consistent beamwidth, both on UHF and VHF.



> So now I must decide whether to go for the CM-4221HD or the ClearStream2V next.


I don't recall seeing anything concrete regarding VHF performance of the 4221. If you want it to be bi-directional, you'd have to remove the reflectors. Then, if whatever VHF performance it originally had was due to those reflectors, it's then been substantially changed. OTOH, the C2V's VHF performance is simple to understand since it's just a dipole and it's UHF performance without a reflector is equally understandable.

The biggest issue with omni and bi-directional antennas is their lack of ability to reject undesired reflections from unwanted directions as these are one of the biggest contributors to problematic digital reception (multipath). Reducing the odds of receiving those multi-path signals by selecting the "best fit" antenna style and model for any given situation goes a long way towards improving reception results.


----------



## OrlandoD

ProjectSHO89 said:


> An omni has no direction to face.


Thanks for correcting that contradiction.



ProjectSHO89 said:


> That suggestion was made regarding the use of your existing RCA small combo which is moderately directional. Pointing it to the west would assure that it receives nothing very well, everything would have to come in from the sides which may or may not work. It certainly isn't how the antenna was intended to be used even it it would happen to work.
> 
> There is only one C2V, the larger unit is the C4V. FWIW, mileage ratings are pretty useless and are generally figments of the marketing department's collective imaginations. On UHF, each model will have significantly different beamwidth patterns and the C4V will have some interesting side lobes. Someone would have to look at the relative angles of your plot and compare them to the antenna's patterns to make sure that you don't accidentally hit one of the nulls with a required channel. The C2V doesn't have this issue since it has a very broad and consistent beamwidth, both on UHF and VHF.
> 
> I don't recall seeing anything concrete regarding VHF performance of the 4221. If you want it to be bi-directional, you'd have to remove the reflectors. Then, if whatever VHF performance it originally had was due to those reflectors, it's then been substantially changed. OTOH, the C2V's VHF performance is simple to understand since it's just a dipole and it's UHF performance without a reflector is equally understandable.
> 
> The biggest issue with omni and bi-directional antennas is their lack of ability to reject undesired reflections from unwanted directions as these are one of the biggest contributors to problematic digital reception (multipath). Reducing the odds of receiving those multi-path signals by selecting the "best fit" antenna style and model for any given situation goes a long way towards improving reception results.


Seems like the C2V is a better choice given my situation. Regarding my current reception quality, out of the 32 dependable (regularly detected on channel scans regardless of time of day) local OTA broadcasts, only 1 seems to be a major problem, channel 34.1. The rest work pretty good. Therefore I think the simple act of taking my present directional antenna outside may remedy that. 

Early on I had hoped for reception of a few of the channels farther away in Miami like 23.1 but they are 60 miles away. I realize now that it's a little more involved. Part of my brain tells me that if I were to install a better directional antenna, higher up, facing SSW, I might be able to grab 23.1 while still keeping the closer local stations. Now I'm probably overlooking some problematic roadblocks to this idea I'm sure. 

Funny thing is in my dad's 5th floor apartment south of me, which puts him about 50 miles from Miami, he sometimes gets 23.1 with a cheesy square tabletop antenna. I guess the height and his southern balcony window helps. Interesting stuff.


----------



## rabbit73

You can order a custom combiner that will combine the WTVX signal on real channel 34 from a second antenna with the main antenna.
http://www.tinlee.com/MATV_headend.php?active=3#ANTENNASIGNALINJECTORS
http://www.tinlee.com/PDF/AC7-customer general hookup Info.pdf

a less expensive version is sold on eBay



http://www.antenne-komponenty.eu/english/main/product/zlucovace.html

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/1152566-great-jointenna-exchange-3.html#post37732809


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## SFischer1

You must remember that in addition to all the great words from the experts you must put an array of metal up into the air and ask your tuner(s) what they see. Only then will you get closer to what you need, but a move of inches or feet may be a better spot or a worse one.

Living in a flat location is a real plus, it makes the possibility of multipath lower.

SHF


----------



## A J

OrlandoD said:


> What kind of summer storms are we talking about here? I get almost daily thunderstorms which don't worry me in regards to an antenna.


Straight-line winds are a big bug-a-boo in the Charlotte area. 60 to 75 mph briefly sustained winds happen very often when thunderboomers are around. Trees blown down, crushing through houses, and flattening cars seems to occur somewhere in the area almost weekly during the late spring and summer. The news a couple night back showed several streets completely blocked by falling trees. One couple was crushed to death in their car a few years ago (their two kids in the back seat weren't hurt). In 2013 straight-line wind took down one of my trees, one diagonally across the street from me and another diagonally behind my lot and more behind that. Trees 100 feet either side of that line didn't even have any branches disturbed. I remember a photo in the newspaper of bricks and bent aluminum scattered in a backyard due to a chimney-mount antenna taking the chimney with it in high winds.

I'd rather not have an antenna up on the roof to tempt fate. Besides, once I added a pre-amp to my attic antenna, signal strength has consistently been superb for every station in the metro area. And, that antenna powers two TVs and a 4-tuner TiVo Roamio OTA.

Not having to ground an attic antenna was just an added bonus, one less hassle.


----------



## matonanjin

What does everyone think about the DB8e Extreme Long Range Bowtie HDTV Antenna? Apparently with it one can point the panels in different directions. I will use it for most of the time for my local Omaha OTA channels. But during football season also point one of the panels towards the Sioux City Fox affiliate (80 miles away) for the Chicago Bears games my local affiliate doesn't carry. Either that or I am going to look at a two antennae system.


----------



## OrlandoD

rabbit73 said:


> You can order a custom combiner that will combine the WTVX signal on real channel 34 from a second antenna with the main antenna.
> http://www.tinlee.com/MATV_headend.php?active=3#ANTENNASIGNALINJECTORS
> http://www.tinlee.com/PDF/AC7-customer general hookup Info.pdf
> 
> a less expensive version is sold on eBay
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.antenne-komponenty.eu/english/main/product/zlucovace.html
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/1152566-great-jointenna-exchange-3.html#post37732809


I'll have to keep this in mind IF it comes to that.


----------



## SFischer1

matonanjin said:


> What does everyone think about the DB8e Extreme Long Range Bowtie HDTV Antenna? Apparently with it one can point the panels in different directions. I will use it for most of the time for my local Omaha OTA channels. But during football season also point one of the panels towards the Sioux City Fox affiliate (80 miles away) for the Chicago Bears games my local affiliate doesn't carry. Either that or I am going to look at a two antennae system.


I thought about that antenna but as I have not read where it works and how well it does with the panels pointed in different directions I could not reply with that suggestion.

It sounds like a good idea but there are so many antennas on the market that do not work at all, will work in some locations or are a good proven design.

I watch lots of B&W TV from the 1950 - 1970 and you would just not believe some of the offerings. A "F" connector with a narrow blade ~ 8 inches long, two different ads. And then there are the Lawyers wanting you to call that the ad is just below the line for being legal. 

The OP may be in a good location to try the DB8e, but OTA is not as simple as cable and the time and money getting a working setup when you have cut the cable is a driving force.

SHF


----------



## bhambrad

OrlandoD said:


> I'll have to keep this in mind IF it comes to that.


I am thinking about designing one from him on eBay. Has anyone on here tried one of his custom combiners?


----------



## bwam

bhambrad said:


> I am thinking about designing one from him on eBay. Has anyone on here tried one of his custom combiners?


Yes, I have a Jenca combiner - two channels on first input, three channels on second input, the rest on third input (combining three antennas). Works wonderfully and no sense of any insertion loss.


----------



## bhambrad

bwam said:


> Yes, I have a Jenca combiner - two channels on first input, three channels on second input, the rest on third input (combining three antennas). Works wonderfully and no sense of any insertion loss.



AWESOME NEWS! Can you explain if you did the DC pass on all. Also, do u use one preamp? Any info would greatly be appreciated!


----------



## bwam

bhambrad said:


> AWESOME NEWS! Can you explain if you did the DC pass on all. Also, do u use one preamp? Any info would greatly be appreciated!


I don't have power pass on any. Antennas --> Combiner --> Preamp. The output of the combiner goes into one preamp which has its own power input.

Jenca does sell selective preamps for specific frequencies.


----------



## bhambrad

bwam said:


> I don't have power pass on any. Antennas --> Combiner --> Preamp. The output of the combiner goes into one preamp which has its own power input.
> 
> Jenca does sell selective preamps for specific frequencies.



Very good info. What is your antenna / setup and preamp? I'm excited about building a custom splitter. I'm using a DB4e and a Kitztech 200. I probably will order the Kitztech 500 unless you've tried his preamps.


----------



## bwam

bhambrad said:


> Very good info. What is your antenna / setup and preamp? I'm excited about building a custom splitter. I'm using a DB4e and a Kitztech 200. I probably will order the Kitztech 500 unless you've tried his preamps.


I have a DBGH (double bay Gray Hoverman), an M4 (MClapp 4 bay bowtie) and a VHF loop pointing in different directions all going into the Jenca combiner. The combiner outputs to a Kitztech 500. The antennas are all DIY.

BTW I also had a very expensive Tin Lee combiner which turned out to be a POS!!! It dropped a ton of signal on input and I tossed it away. The Jenca beats it hands down. With the Tin Lee for example, one channel's SNR went down from 25 db to 22 (very noticeable). With the Jenca, it stayed between 24-25. Amazed me.

The KT500 has been my best preamp (I've tried a lot of the others). My second best was the old CM7777 but the KT beat it by one db on about half the channels. Equal on all the rest.

I also have on order a Jenca preamp solely for VHF (22 db gain with 0.5 NF) for another situation. Will see how his preamps work... His prices for devices are usually between $25-$35. The combiner I use was made using specs I emailed him.

Several other people have told me that they have been able to build an antenna farm like myself (multiple antennas pointing in different optimal directions) using Jenca combiners since they can specify multiple channels per input (with up to three input sources). As opposed to trying to aim just one antenna as a compromise between positions.


----------



## bwam

bhambrad said:


> Very good info. What is your antenna / setup and preamp? I'm excited about building a custom splitter.


Here is a pic of my Jenca combiner. My M4 antenna was designed specifically for the 500-512 frequencies\wavelengths (2nd combiner input) with specific whisker lengths and spacings. With selective combiners one can use optimally designed antennas as well as mixing and matching different antenna types to meet the needs of the situation and circumstances. This is why I'm also interested in Jenca's selective preamps.

Here is my _*test*_ M6; once the channel 19\20 M4 was working, I expanded it to an M6 (6 bay 11.75 whisker lengths with 11" spacing, 450 ohm ladder line) to gain additional dbs.

PS Jenca's selective preamps require a bias tee for coax power injection (which he provides at $5). However one has to supply one's own power adapter (12v 100mA).


----------



## bwam

bwam said:


> With selective combiners one can use optimally designed antennas as well as mixing and matching different antenna types to meet the needs of the situation and circumstances.


And here is my VHF loop antenna. Funny story on this one.

My wife said to me, "You're always fiddling around with antenna equipment and disrupting my viewing schedule; can you please keep at least two stations stable and up all the time regardless what you do with the others - I need NBC (channel 11) in the mornings for the Today show and PBS Create (channel 8) for the evenings."

The Yagi I had (channel cut for 11) was just OK and a horizontal space hog. So I looked around for what I could find (VHF specific) and easily, quickly constructable. Came across the loop antenna. Made one from copper tubing (easily bendable refrigerator coil), attached a balun with alligator clips and boom 100% reception for those two channels (after the reflector story below)!

The reflectors behind it are another story. I was cleaning out my basement and was getting rid of some plant stakes I had used a decade before in gardening. I couldn't bend them over my knee to snap them in two for garbage disposal. I took a knife to cut through the plastic and I encountered steel rods inside. Some stakes were 46 inches and others 70. I thought I could use them as reflectors. Whittled them, drilled holes in PVC, and mounted them through the pipe without cutting them and boom full and great reception! Yagi out the door... Loop is 66" circumference (channel 8 wavelength), 23" diameter, 16" in front of the reflectors.

Since these rods were great reflectors, I decided to expand my FM antenna's reflector stage by putting six 70" reflectors (the plant stake rods again) behind the FM Yagi (I get HD Radio). Just expanding the reflector cause the average 65-67 db FM signal strength to soar up to 70 db! Plant stakes LOL.

Now my wife has her two essential stations that I won't touch with all my fiddling. Untouchable (why improve on 100%?). BTW PBS Create is one hellova channel (especially Cooks Country).


----------



## bhambrad

bwam said:


> I have a DBGH (double bay Gray Hoverman), an M4 (MClapp 4 bay bowtie) and a VHF loop pointing in different directions all going into the Jenca combiner. The combiner outputs to a Kitztech 500. The antennas are all DIY.
> 
> BTW I also had a very expensive Tin Lee combiner which turned out to be a POS!!! It dropped a ton of signal on input and I tossed it away. The Jenca beats it hands down. With the Tin Lee for example, one channel's SNR went down from 25 db to 22 (very noticeable). With the Jenca, it stayed between 24-25. Amazed me.
> 
> The KT500 has been my best preamp (I've tried a lot of the others). My second best was the old CM7777 but the KT beat it by one db on about half the channels. Equal on all the rest.
> 
> I also have on order a Jenca preamp solely for VHF (22 db gain with 0.5 NF) for another situation. Will see how his preamps work... His prices for devices are usually between $25-$35. The combiner I use was made using specs I emailed him.
> 
> Several other people have told me that they have been able to build an antenna farm like myself (multiple antennas pointing in different optimal directions) using Jenca combiners since they can specify multiple channels per input (with up to three input sources). As opposed to trying to aim just one antenna as a compromise between positions.


I wish I knew about this thread earlier. Great info. So I have seen his specific channel preamps. How do you plan to use your specific channel filter with the Kitztech 500? I read in another thread about someone using his channel specific preamp powered by his Kitztech 200. I don't know how that would affect the noise. That is super cool creating special antennas for specific channels. I'm not that brave yet.


----------



## bhambrad

bwam said:


> And here is my VHF loop antenna. Funny story on this one.
> 
> My wife said to me, "You're always fiddling around with antenna equipment and disrupting my viewing schedule; can you please keep at least two stations stable and up all the time regardless what you do with the others - I need NBC (channel 11) in the mornings for the Today show and PBS Create (channel 8) for the evenings."
> 
> The Yagi I had (channel cut for 11) was just OK and a horizontal space hog. So I looked around for what I could find (VHF specific) and easily, quickly constructable. Came across the loop antenna. Made one from copper tubing (easily bendable refrigerator coil), attached a balun with alligator clips and boom 100% reception for those two channels (after the reflector story below)!
> 
> The reflectors behind it are another story. I was cleaning out my basement and was getting rid of some plant stakes I had used a decade before in gardening. I couldn't bend them over my knee to snap them in two for garbage disposal. I took a knife to cut through the plastic and I encountered steel rods inside. Some stakes were 46 inches and others 70. I thought I could use them as reflectors. Whittled them, drilled holes in PVC, and mounted them through the pipe without cutting them and boom full and great reception! Yagi out the door... Loop is 66" circumference (channel 8 wavelength), 23" diameter, 16" in front of the reflectors.
> 
> Since these rods were great reflectors, I decided to expand my FM antenna's reflector stage by putting six 70" reflectors (the plant stake rods again) behind the FM Yagi (I get HD Radio). Just expanding the reflector cause the average 65-67 db FM signal strength to soar up to 70 db! Plant stakes LOL.
> 
> Now my wife has her two essential stations that I won't touch with all my fiddling. Untouchable (why improve on 100%?). BTW PBS Create is one hellova channel (especially Cooks Country).



Its funny. I do the same thing. I was up in the attic and the VHF stations are giving me fits and I was looking for a solution and started with notch filters on eBay and found jj's combiner. I then found this thread and saw ppl were actually using them and I was like YES! I need to try an antenna dyi design as well. sounds like fun. I started down this road because my CBS station, WIAT over compresses with multicasting and always distorts the image with weather crap. Are you picking up multiple markets?


----------



## Calaveras

bwam said:


> BTW I also had a very expensive Tin Lee combiner which turned out to be a POS!!! It dropped a ton of signal on input and I tossed it away. The Jenca beats it hands down. With the Tin Lee for example, one channel's SNR went down from 25 db to 22 (very noticeable). With the Jenca, it stayed between 24-25. Amazed me.
> 
> The KT500 has been my best preamp (I've tried a lot of the others).



Too bad you threw away the Tin Lee. They stand behind their products and if it didn't meet specs they would have repaired it. Tin Lee provides individual insertion loss/gain plots for their products. Does Jenca provide these? There are no specs other than insertion loss for the channel inserters. It would be nice to know how wide the bandpasses are for the channel inserters. You need to know this in order to determine if one will work in your situation or not.

Jenca did provide a bandwidth spec for their selective preamps. I plotted that and attached it below for the SLNA-B1K. It's selective compared to a broadband preamp but it's not that selective. It doesn't return to unity gain until you go out about +/-30MHz (+/- 5 channels). This is another thing that needs to be considered before purchasing one of these. If you had a strong station 2 channels away it could still be a problem.

This is why AVS insists on TV Fool reports because its helpful to determine what might work and what might not.

On the KT-5000..... I measured one and it has very poor overload characteristics. The KT-200 is a much better choice. Unless you have a rare situation where you need the high gain on UHF and all your signals are weak, I wouldn't use it.


----------



## bwam

bhambrad said:


> Its funny. I do the same thing. I was up in the attic and the VHF stations are giving me fits and I was looking for a solution and started with notch filters on eBay and found jj's combiner. I then found this thread and saw ppl were actually using them and I was like YES! I need to try an antenna dyi design as well. sounds like fun. I started down this road because my CBS station, WIAT over compresses with multicasting and always distorts the image with weather crap. Are you picking up multiple markets?


Ah a Bama guy! Unfortunately one of my best friends is a Bama guy and I have had to live through the last 7 years hearing nothing but Nick Saban! But we love driving through Alabama on our way to Florida...

I don't get multiple markets but I need a set of antennas because I live in a heavily wooded area in which the signals are dispersed. My antennas are positioned strategically in different places to gather the separate clusters of signals together - which is why I needed the Jenca combiner.

I used to have the KT100 years ago and for fun I tried a test. I cascaded two of them in a row (because they have low noise figures). One KT was at the antenna, the other 100 feet away in front of a 4-way splitter. To my surprise the second KT actually gave me a one db boost over having just one KT in the chain. So having two low noise preamps in series did not degrade the signal at all.

I wish I had known about this DIY stuff ten years ago; I wasted over 500 dollars on high priced antennas that did me no good. The past few years I have been able to experiment with inexpensive components and arrive at solutions through trial and error that are better than the purchased stuff. My first DIY project was the M4 which I tried after I had run into MClapp's website. For $8 I could rival and surpass those $100 antennas!!! And without fear, tear it down, rebuild it and look iteratively for even better results.


----------



## bwam

Calaveras said:


> The KT-200 is a much better choice.


I will be testing the Jenca VHF preamp when it arrives but it isn't for me but a friend who asked that I build him a VHF loop as well. For $30 the preamp was within his price range. He already has a KT200 for his UHF stations and it does great. His VHF avenue is completely on the other side of the house and he didn't feel like combining two antennas 100 feet apart through one preamp.


----------



## bhambrad

bwam said:


> I will be testing the Jenca VHF preamp when it arrives but it isn't for me but a friend who asked that I build him a VHF loop as well. For $30 the preamp was within his price range. He already has a KT200 for his UHF stations and it does great. His VHF avenue is completely on the other side of the house and he didn't feel like combining two antennas 100 feet apart through one preamp.



Gotcha. I'm thinking maybe I should try it with the 200 and see what happens.


----------



## bhambrad

bwam said:


> Ah a Bama guy! Unfortunately one of my best friends is a Bama guy and I have had to live through the last 7 years hearing nothing but Nick Saban! But we love driving through Alabama on our way to Florida...
> 
> I don't get multiple markets but I need a set of antennas because I live in a heavily wooded area in which the signals are dispersed. My antennas are positioned strategically in different places to gather the separate clusters of signals together - which is why I needed the Jenca combiner.
> 
> I used to have the KT100 years ago and for fun I tried a test. I cascaded two of them in a row (because they have low noise figures). One KT was at the antenna, the other 100 feet away in front of a 4-way splitter. To my surprise the second KT actually gave me a one db boost over having just one KT in the chain. So having two low noise preamps in series did not degrade the signal at all.
> 
> I wish I had known about this DIY stuff ten years ago; I wasted over 500 dollars on high priced antennas that did me no good. The past few years I have been able to experiment with inexpensive components and arrive at solutions through trial and error that are better than the purchased stuff. My first DIY project was the M4 which I tried after I had run into MClapp's website. For $8 I could rival and surpass those $100 antennas!!! And without fear, tear it down, rebuild it and look iteratively for even better results.


This is Ohio State fan in Alabama. I have to hear those Saban lovers all time as well. I can't wait to try a new antenna design. I have some ideas.


----------



## bwam

bhambrad said:


> This is Ohio State fan in Alabama. I have to hear those Saban lovers all time as well.


That's gotta be tough - a Big Ten guy in the middle of SEC country! Bet when the Buckeyes won in 2014 that was huge cause the Crimson Tide lost in the semis.


----------



## tylerSC

bwam said:


> And here is my VHF loop antenna. Funny story on this one.
> 
> My wife said to me, "You're always fiddling around with antenna equipment and disrupting my viewing schedule; can you please keep at least two stations stable and up all the time regardless what you do with the others - I need NBC (channel 11) in the mornings for the Today show and PBS Create (channel 8) for the evenings."
> 
> The Yagi I had (channel cut for 11) was just OK and a horizontal space hog. So I looked around for what I could find (VHF specific) and easily, quickly constructable. Came across the loop antenna. Made one from copper tubing (easily bendable refrigerator coil), attached a balun with alligator clips and boom 100% reception for those two channels (after the reflector story below)!
> 
> The reflectors behind it are another story. I was cleaning out my basement and was getting rid of some plant stakes I had used a decade before in gardening. I couldn't bend them over my knee to snap them in two for garbage disposal. I took a knife to cut through the plastic and I encountered steel rods inside. Some stakes were 46 inches and others 70. I thought I could use them as reflectors. Whittled them, drilled holes in PVC, and mounted them through the pipe without cutting them and boom full and great reception! Yagi out the door... Loop is 66" circumference (channel 8 wavelength), 23" diameter, 16" in front of the reflectors.
> 
> Since these rods were great reflectors, I decided to expand my FM antenna's reflector stage by putting six 70" reflectors (the plant stake rods again) behind the FM Yagi (I get HD Radio). Just expanding the reflector cause the average 65-67 db FM signal strength to soar up to 70 db! Plant stakes LOL.
> 
> Now my wife has her two essential stations that I won't touch with all my fiddling. Untouchable (why improve on 100%?). BTW PBS Create is one hellova channel (especially Cooks Country).


Impressive VHF antenna. But I just ordered a Clearstream 5 from AD since it was on sale under $100. Hoping to improve results for RF13, WLOS which is problematic at my location. Currently using Terk rabbit ears dipole. Zip code 29607. RF7 and RF9 are very strong, and so are the UHF channels. 13 needs an amp but the other channels do not. Using a UVSJ and a Juice preamp. Hopefully the CS5 will help.


----------



## tylerSC

Is the Antennas Direct Element antenna designed for Low VHF as well as High VHF? Does it get UHF? It says Log Periodic design, but just wondering what channels it is optimized for. Also thinking ahead if channels convert to Low VHF after FCC repack. But that has not been officially announced yet, but apparently a possibility. Antenna sells for $79. Will it also get FM radio?


----------



## bwam

tylerSC said:


> Impressive VHF antenna. But I just ordered a Clearstream 5 from AD since it was on sale under $100. Hoping to improve results for RF13, WLOS which is problematic at my location. Currently using Terk rabbit ears dipole. Zip code 29607. RF7 and RF9 are very strong, and so are the UHF channels. 13 needs an amp but the other channels do not. Using a UVSJ and a Juice preamp. Hopefully the CS5 will help.


The loop antenna I built was designed at another forum by someone else using in part the Clearstream 5 as a model (which they acknowledged). So the two antennas have the same (or similar) characteristics and gain. My reflector (wild as it is) does not reflect the original design! I just thought I would put those long rods to use rather than throwing them out. The irony is when I saw how well they worked, I used some of them for my FM antenna and it turned out great. I had seen pictures of a European FM (Yagi) antenna that had 5 reflectors and that gave me the motivation to test this scenario out for HD Radio reception (which in some respects is as picky as UHF).

In fact the loop antenna is depicted pretty well here (a much nicer implementation than my monstrosity):

https://sites.google.com/site/maycreates/ota-setup/diy-vhf-loop-antenna

Incidentally I had also built a folded dipole using the same copper coil and length to compare which one would serve me best. The loop had exactly one db more on each channel over a period of several days comparison testing.


----------



## bwam

tylerSC said:


> Also thinking ahead if channels convert to Low VHF after FCC repack.?


I was thinking (ahead) same as you. My humongous reflector may come in handy if I do a Low VHF loop... That's one of the reasons I didn't saw the rods down. In fact I saw at Home Depot the other day that they had 96" plant stakes.

Recycling = grow a garden --> reuse resources for antenna.


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## SFischer1

SFischer1 said:


> ... A "F" connector with a narrow blade ~ 8 inches long, two different ads. ...
> 
> SHF


Here is one of the ads. Don't buy too many, they may run out.


----------



## matonanjin

With a TvFool chart what is the difference between the 2nd and 3rd columns, Real and Virtual, respectively? For my local Fox channel, as an example, its "Real" number is listed as 43, and its "Virtual" number is 42. On the DVR it is channel 42. And why do some channels not have "Virtual" number? KYNE-TV, which is a PBS station has a "Real" number of 17 but no number in the "Virtual" column. Thanks.


----------



## SFischer1

matonanjin said:


> With a TvFool chart what is the difference between the 2nd and 3rd columns, Real and Virtual, respectively? For my local Fox channel, as an example, its "Real" number is listed as 43, and its "Virtual" number is 42. On the DVR it is channel 42. And why do some channels not have "Virtual" number? KYNE-TV, which is a PBS station has a "Real" number of 17 but no number in the "Virtual" column. Thanks.


The Virtual Channels are a left over from the analog NTSC days. The stations wanted to keep their analog channel branding over to the HDTV system. Thus the VC in most cases are the channels they had in the analog days.

Where I live two (2) stations KGO VC 7 RF 7 & RF 35 and KICU VC 36 RF 36 have used their old RF channels.

All the others either lost in the bidding process for their old NTSC channel or chose to move to a new RF channel.

One station here has VC 1 which has been unused for many decades going back to just after (Before?) WWII. (FCC approved)

Most HDTV sets only show the VC numbers for stations and only when you enter new RF channels for an additional station are RF channels needed. I have to dig into several sub menus on my new Sony to find the RF channel. Some sets do not allow you to find out and that is a serious problem in some cases.

When you are talking about antennas you must think about RF channels NOT the Virtual channels.

Some of my ATSC tuner equipment shows only Virtual Channels, some only RF channels and some both.

I have memorized the VC RF channel mapping for most of the stations I can receive. If I make a post in my local area I must check the great DTV lists that two persons maintain. If I get a mountain top, RF channel, VC channel or the stations call letters wrong I will get a post pointing out my mistake.

With some checking on http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php you can find out the missing numbers on TVFool.

SHF

(Real = RF)


----------



## rabbit73

Hello, matonanjin

Yeah, it can be confusing. The real channel number is the actual RF channel that is used by the transmitter to broadcast the signal. It is the real channel number that determines which antenna is needed to receive the signal. It is the custom to use the decimal form for the virtual number to avoid confusion. For example, KPTM Fox is real channel number 43, and virtual channel number 42.1.

There are three TV bands:
VHF-Low, real channels 2-6
VHF-High, real channels 7-13
UHF, real channels 14-51

The virtual channel number is a holdover from the analog TV days. With the transition to digital, many were assigned a new channel to broadcast the signal, but most stations wanted to retain their original identity as defined by their original analog channel number.

So, some have different real and virtual numbers, and some have the same number if they stayed on the same channel.

Here is a generic report for Omaha:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e2cb75e4d4f583

As you have noticed, sometimes the virtual channel number isn't given on the report. You can find it several different ways. You can go to Google for KYNE TV and find Wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebraska_Educational_Telecommunications
scroll down, virtual is (PSIP) and real is UHF

You can go to rabbitears.info and enter kyne in Call Sign box at Web Listings:
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=kyne
Display Channel is virtual 26-1 and Physical Channel 17.1 is real channel 17, just to make it even more confusing

You can go again to rabbitears.info, and scroll down to and click on Searches
http://www.rabbitears.info/search.php
On Address Search page enter Zip Code 68022 for Omaha
http://www.rabbitears.info/search.p...miles=60&address=&lat=&lon=&dbtype=dBm&height=

scroll down to KYNE-TV and you will see again 26-1 virtual an 17.1 real


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## rabbit73

I see that SFischer1 was posting at the same time; you get two answers for the price of one.


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## SFischer1

rabbit73 said:


> I see that SFischer1 was posting at the same time; you get two answers for the price of one.


Two persons saying the same thing with different words is a plus and shows that a common understanding is held.

SHF


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## rabbit73

Yes, thanks and I forgot about the Market Listing but you didn't. Omaha is #82 , or you can enter callsign.


http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php


It's called a Market because it's all about money. Advertisers want to know how many people are able to see their commercials.


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## matonanjin

*How do you like the DB4E?*



bhambrad said:


> Very good info. What is your antenna / setup and preamp? I'm excited about building a custom splitter. I'm using a DB4e and a Kitztech 200. I probably will order the Kitztech 500 unless you've tried his preamps.


How do you like the DB4e? I am thinking about going to a 2 antenna system in my attic. The DB4e will be used to point south and get the stations fairly close to my house (8 to 40 miles). And then I am going to get something a little "stronger" to point north and pull in some stations that are about 80 miles away. I'm not sure yet what to get for that. I have until NFL season starts to decide on the second one.


----------



## matonanjin

rabbit73 said:


> I see that SFischer1 was posting at the same time; you get two answers for the price of one.


But here is my concern. I am _*not *_paying two fees. I did not request two responses. You are going to have to split the fee

Sfischer1 and rabbit73, thank you both for the thoughtful, informative responses. I'm going to have to digest them. And as I put together my antennae system I'm sure I'll be asking more, most of which will be dumb.


----------



## bhambrad

matonanjin said:


> How do you like the DB4e? I am thinking about going to a 2 antenna system in my attic. The DB4e will be used to point south and get the stations fairly close to my house (8 to 40 miles). And then I am going to get something a little "stronger" to point north and pull in some stations that are about 80 miles away. I'm not sure yet what to get for that. I have until NFL season starts to decide on the second one.


DB4e is solid for UHF signals and still picks up some VHF. The DB4e may even work fine for pulling in the stations 80 miles away. I am pulling in stations 80 miles away (at times) from my attic and its off the back side of the antenna. I also have had great luck vertically stacking 2 of them in the past. Ask for Katie at Antennas Direct and give one a shot. I have also owned the DB8e, but prefer the DB4e.


----------



## matonanjin

bhambrad said:


> DB4e is solid for UHF signals and still picks up some VHF. The DB4e may even work fine for pulling in the stations 80 miles away. I am pulling in stations 80 miles away (at times) from my attic and its off the back side of the antenna. I also have had great luck vertically stacking 2 of them in the past. Ask for Katie at Antennas Direct and give one a shot. I have also owned the DB8e, but prefer the DB4e.


Thanks, bhambrad. Hmmm. Maybe the DB4e will work pulling in the signals that need to the north from 80 miles! If you are getting them off the backside and if I point it. And I can get a lesser one for the closer channels. I get the further channels now on occasion with a really cheap antenna, decades old, in my attic. And I am currently getting close channels with just an indoor antenna. And I have spoken with Katie before, by chat, and shes seems real knowledgeable and helpful.


----------



## matonanjin

*Why exactly do I need this?*

I would like to submit my entry for AVS Forum Dumbest Question of the Day (AVSFDQD). But exactly why do I need a custom combiner like this? I am thinking very seriously of installing a two antennae system so that I can watch all my "regular" local OTA channels. But with a second antenna I should be able to sneak in some Sioux City channels, 80 miles away. My main goal for this is to get the Sioux City FOX station because it will often carry Bears football when our local FOX station doesn't. 

So back to my original question, what is the purpose of a "custom" combiner. Does it filter something? What is the advantage of this over just a "cheapy" splitter/combiner?

Thanks.



rabbit73 said:


> You can order a custom combiner that will combine the WTVX signal on real channel 34 from a second antenna with the main antenna.
> http://www.tinlee.com/MATV_headend.php?active=3#ANTENNASIGNALINJECTORS
> http://www.tinlee.com/PDF/AC7-customer general hookup Info.pdf
> 
> a less expensive version is sold on eBay
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.antenne-komponenty.eu/english/main/product/zlucovace.html
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/1152566-great-jointenna-exchange-3.html#post37732809


----------



## Calaveras

matonanjin said:


> I would like to submit my entry for AVS Forum Dumbest Question of the Day (AVSFDQD). But exactly why do I need a custom combiner like this? I am thinking very seriously of installing a two antennae system so that I can watch all my "regular" local OTA channels. But with a second antenna I should be able to sneak in some Sioux City channels, 80 miles away. My main goal for this is to get the Sioux City FOX station because it will often carry Bears football when our local FOX station doesn't.
> 
> So back to my original question, what is the purpose of a "custom" combiner. Does it filter something? What is the advantage of this over just a "cheapy" splitter/combiner?
> 
> Thanks.



It's not a dumb question. The pictured combiner allows you to have an all band antenna pointed in one direction using Input 1 and a second UHF antenna pointed in another direction for RF channels 27 and 43. This is a better option than using a cheap 2-way splitter/combiner which allows signals from the antennas to interfere with each other. Sometimes the cheap way works but the more expensive combiner guarantees it will work if possible.

The 2 channel selective combiner does have some limitations. The two channels to combine with main antenna cannot be adjacent to other channels. You need 2 or 3 channels separation in order for it to work correctly because the internal filters are not selective enough to reject or pass adjacent or even adjacent +2 channels.


----------



## matonanjin

bhambrad said:


> DB4e is solid for UHF signals and still picks up some VHF. The DB4e may even work fine for pulling in the stations 80 miles away. I am pulling in stations 80 miles away (at times) from my attic and its off the back side of the antenna. I also have had great luck vertically stacking 2 of them in the past. Ask for Katie at Antennas Direct and give one a shot. I have also owned the DB8e, but prefer the DB4e.


I did speak with Katie and she was very helpful. Rather than go with the DB4e, which may have been fine, I went with the 91XG Unidirectional Ultra Long Range. Since I am trying to really "narrow it down"to get those Sioux City channels I thought (and Katie thought) this may be better. Then I will get the combiner should I ever figure that out and maybe I'll be set.

Since in the attic I will horizontally stack rather than vertically.


----------



## bhambrad

matonanjin said:


> I did speak with Katie and she was very helpful. Rather than go with the DB4e, which may have been fine, I went with the 91XG Unidirectional Ultra Long Range. Since I am trying to really "narrow it down"to get those Sioux City channels I thought (and Katie thought) this may be better. Then I will get the combiner should I ever figure that out and maybe I'll be set.
> 
> Since in the attic I will horizontally stack rather than vertically.


I was curious how that antenna performed. Keep me updated on the progress. I may have to try that one if you have success with it.


----------



## matonanjin

bhambrad said:


> I was curious how that antenna performed. Keep me updated on the progress. I may have to try that one if you have success with it.


I will do that. I paid for 2nd day delivery so it should be here Friday. If it's not too hot in the attic I will, hopefully, put it into service over the week-end. I'll report back.


----------



## wildwillie6

> The 2 channel selective combiner does have some limitations. The two channels to combine with main antenna cannot be adjacent to other channels. You need 2 or 3 channels separation in order for it to work correctly because the internal filters are not selective enough to reject or pass adjacent or even adjacent +2 channels.


Yes, and that will become important to some of us after repacking (http://deadline.com/2016/03/fcc-begins-broadcast-tv-spectrum-auction-1201727834/), as we'll then be much more likely to have adjacent channels.


----------



## bwam

wildwillie6 said:


> Yes, and that will become important to some of us after repacking (http://deadline.com/2016/03/fcc-begins-broadcast-tv-spectrum-auction-1201727834/), as we'll then be much more likely to have adjacent channels.


You'll notice from the picture of my combiner that input two is two adjacent channels (frequencies 500 to 512). Somehow both channels came in best through one antenna while the rest came through best through another antenna.


----------



## matonanjin

Calaveras said:


> It's not a dumb question. The pictured combiner allows you to have an all band antenna pointed in one direction using Input 1 and a second UHF antenna pointed in another direction for RF channels 27 and 43. This is a better option than using a cheap 2-way splitter/combiner which allows signals from the antennas to interfere with each other. Sometimes the cheap way works but the more expensive combiner guarantees it will work if possible.
> 
> The 2 channel selective combiner does have some limitations. The two channels to combine with main antenna cannot be adjacent to other channels. You need 2 or 3 channels separation in order for it to work correctly because the internal filters are not selective enough to reject or pass adjacent or even adjacent +2 channels.


Well, if that wasn't a dumb question then let me try again. I'll keep trying! So you have two channels (27 & 43) that are being snatched from the second antenna. How many channels can you specify in the combiner from the second antenna? Is there a limit? And how does one order? I know that is a very general (does this qualify for dumb?) question but I went to this guy's website and it wasn't very intuitive. 

Maybe if I explain what I am trying to do it would help. My antennae are going in my attic. My first antenna is going to grab all (most) of the first channels on this. It will be pointed south and since they are very close, most of them 7- 23 miles, I shouldn't have much issue. I will point my antenna straight south and it should be able to grab the first 7 line items on this without much trouble, channels 22-38. And I may be able to get 12&33.

Then my second antenna I am going to point north (Sioux City) and I hope to get channels 39, 41, 9 & 49. I got the 91XG Unidirectional Ultra Long Range antenna for this. The most important channel in this is 49 which is Sioux City's Fox affiliate. They will very often carry Chicago Bears football when my local Fox channel usually carries Green Bay or Vikings. If the combiner is limited on the number of channels I can live with 49 and another one or two.

Does what I am doing make sense? Thanks.


----------



## bwam

matonanjin said:


> Well, if that wasn't a dumb question then let me try again. I'll keep trying! So you have two channels (27 & 43) that are being snatched from the second antenna. How many channels can you specify in the combiner from the second antenna? Is there a limit? And how does one order? I know that is a very general (does this qualify for dumb?) question but I went to this guy's website and it wasn't very intuitive.
> 
> Maybe if I explain what I am trying to do it would help. My antennae are going in my attic. My first antenna is going to grab all (most) of the first channels on this. It will be pointed south and since they are very close, most of them 7- 23 miles, I shouldn't have much issue. I will point my antenna straight south and it should be able to grab the first 7 line items on this without much trouble, channels 22-38. And I may be able to get 12&33.
> 
> Then my second antenna I am going to point north (Sioux City) and I hope to get channels 39, 41, 9 & 49. I got the 91XG Unidirectional Ultra Long Range antenna for this. The most important channel in this is 49 which is Sioux City's Fox affiliate. They will very often carry Chicago Bears football when my local Fox channel usually carries Green Bay or Vikings. If the combiner is limited on the number of channels I can live with 49 and another one or two.
> 
> Does what I am doing make sense? Thanks.


I've seen as many as three channels specified for one of the inputs on a Jenca combiner. Maximum of three inputs. Mine is 2 + 2 + all the rest.

I sent him an email specifying my configuration of inputs and got back a price quote. Used PayPal and when he got the payment he built it. Got it 2 weeks later from Slovakia.

Originally I sent him an email just plainly writing what my requirements were (as you did in this post). He kindly replied and sent me 3 alternatives (3 different combiner configurations that were possible) that I could choose from. Prices varied. I chose one.

Send him this post and see what he advises.


----------



## Calaveras

matonanjin said:


> Well, if that wasn't a dumb question then let me try again. I'll keep trying! So you have two channels (27 & 43) that are being snatched from the second antenna. How many channels can you specify in the combiner from the second antenna? Is there a limit? And how does one order? I know that is a very general (does this qualify for dumb?) question but I went to this guy's website and it wasn't very intuitive.
> 
> Maybe if I explain what I am trying to do it would help. My antennae are going in my attic. My first antenna is going to grab all (most) of the first channels on this. It will be pointed south and since they are very close, most of them 7- 23 miles, I shouldn't have much issue. I will point my antenna straight south and it should be able to grab the first 7 line items on this without much trouble, channels 22-38. And I may be able to get 12&33.
> 
> Then my second antenna I am going to point north (Sioux City) and I hope to get channels 39, 41, 9 & 49. I got the 91XG Unidirectional Ultra Long Range antenna for this. The most important channel in this is 49 which is Sioux City's Fox affiliate. They will very often carry Chicago Bears football when my local Fox channel usually carries Green Bay or Vikings. If the combiner is limited on the number of channels I can live with 49 and another one or two.
> 
> Does what I am doing make sense? Thanks.



The channel inserter with separate antenna is not going to work for you. It's not going to work with adjacent channels because the filters are not selective enough. Channel 39 has adjacent local 38 and channel 49 has adjacent local 48. Channel 43 may not need a separate antenna since it's more or less in the same direction as your other stations. The 91XG is a UHF only antenna so it will not receive channel 9. You'll need a high VHF antenna.

Another problem is that the other stations you want are 82 miles away. That's much farther away than they are designed to reach. You may or not receive them but a good and high outdoor antenna is almost certainly a requirement for reliable reception. An attic antenna is not going to cut it.

If you only need these distant channels for some live sporting events then I'd suggest putting the VHF and UHF antennas on a rotor and just turn it to watch the sports and leave it pointed at the locals to record network programs.

In a couple of weeks I expect have some measurements on one of these Jenca channel inserters to see how many channels away must the selective input needs to be away from channels on the broadband input.


----------



## matonanjin

*Dang!*

So Chuck, you had to go ahead and ruin my day, huh? I do appreciate the time you have taken with me. Somewhat reverse order from what you presented but first the distance. I don't think that the 82 miles is going to be a problem. I have a cheap, old (maybe 2 decades) antenna in my attic now that will on occasion bring in the Sioux City channels in question. And there is no preamp. With the new 91XG pointed corrected I am hoping I can pull them in. Plus I am on a hill that is just about the highest point in my county. And, if necessary I will go to a preamp. And if I _really_ have to I will put the antenna on my roof. But that is going to take considerable domestic negotiation.

Of course, this still leaves the issue of the channels. I don't care about channel 9. The real issue is the proximity of the channels, especially 48 & 49. Dang. I guess I will see how well I can get the Sioux City channels when I get the new antenna and go from there. And then look in to a rotor. 

Or is there some sort of switching device to switch my DVR from one cable to another? With a separate cable running to each of two antennae?

Thanks again, Chuck.


----------



## SFischer1

matonanjin said:


> ...
> 
> Or is there some sort of switching device to switch my DVR from one cable to another? With a separate cable running to each of two antennae?
> 
> Thanks again, Chuck.


Yes, another DVR.

I have four antennas and six ATSC tuners. All six can record, actually listings are downloaded and checked against a watch list and if I have not seen a program before it will schedule it with any work on my part. Well actually I need to delete many scheduled captures due to the dumb PBS station(s) and others. (Plus my HDTV which is seldom used except for the round and round or the back and forth)

The best rule is, one antenna per tuner. Hard to mess up that rule.

SHF


----------



## Calaveras

matonanjin said:


> So Chuck, you had to go ahead and ruin my day, huh? I do appreciate the time you have taken with me. Somewhat reverse order from what you presented but first the distance. I don't think that the 82 miles is going to be a problem. I have a cheap, old (maybe 2 decades) antenna in my attic now that will on occasion bring in the Sioux City channels in question. And there is no preamp. With the new 91XG pointed corrected I am hoping I can pull them in. Plus I am on a hill that is just about the highest point in my county. And, if necessary I will go to a preamp. And if I _really_ have to I will put the antenna on my roof. But that is going to take considerable domestic negotiation.



Being on a hill certainly helps. It's common for temperature inversions that often form in the evening and last through until the next morning to extend the range of reception. I suspect that's what you're experiencing with your occasional reception. The problem is you can't count on them. You'll just have to try and see what happens.


----------



## matonanjin

SFischer1 said:


> Yes, another DVR.
> 
> I have four antennas and six ATSC tuners. All six can record, actually listings are downloaded and checked against a watch list and if I have not seen a program before it will schedule it with any work on my part. Well actually I need to delete many scheduled captures due to the dumb PBS station(s) and others. (Plus my HDTV which is seldom used except for the round and round or the back and forth)
> 
> The best rule is, one antenna per tuner. Hard to mess up that rule.
> 
> SHF


Six tuners!?!?! That ain't going to happen. I already have more devices than I have HDMI inputs on my TV. I am curious though how you _"listings are downloaded and checked against a watch list and if I have not seen a program before it will schedule it". _Are you using TIVO that works with an EPG?

Thanks again.


----------



## lohertz

SFischer1 said:


> The best rule is, one antenna per tuner. Hard to mess up that rule.


Sounds like overkill to me. 
I have five tuners off of one antenna. But, that's what preamps and amplifiers are for.



matonanjin said:


> I am curious though how you _"listings are downloaded and checked against a watch list and if I have not seen a program before it will schedule it". _Are you using TIVO that works with an EPG?


I use mythTV. It will record shows against my list and automagically record new shows when they air.


----------



## SFischer1

lohertz said:


> Sounds like overkill to me.
> I have five tuners off of one antenna. But, that's what preamps and amplifiers are for.


Actually I have seven (7) ASTC tuners on my main antenna.

One of my HDHR tuners has an antenna for another mountain top that my main antenna does not have a lobe that is in the correct direction. My main antenna gets the secondary transmitter site, but I just happened to be just in the right direction.

One of the non-HDHR tuners has two antenna connections and the second is used for an antenna pointing to the South East for a station to the North East. Go figure. 

It is a myth that mythTV is the only program that does what I said. The people who created the program I use likely saw what mythTV did on Linux and created a program for Windows. 

Be careful with your quoting, you put my words in another persons mouth.

Why so many tuners, well three were planned and when I could not figure out what was wrong, I purchased another using the same defective software. One was added so that I could have a tuner on my wireless network. Those came in pairs and another pair were purchased finally to replace the defective software one. It is counted as an available tuner but it cannot do captures when asked to do by the program that controls all the tuners except my HDTV which is used as a monitor most of the time.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-ho...p-hd-homerun-myhd-fusionhdtv.html#post7370557

SHF


----------



## ay221

My AntennaCraft hbu-22 got damaged in a hailstorm. I see that they went out of business. What is a good equivalent directional antenna?


----------



## holl_ands

Meets or exceed performance, per Element Counts and mfr spec numbers:
[Note that A-D Gain numbers are higher by 2.1 dB since they use dBi vs dBd.]

Antennas Direct: https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/Element-Undirectional-Long-Range-DTV-Antenna.html

Channel Master: CM-2018 or HD-5018
http://downloads.channelmaster.com/Sheets/20+Series+Product+Sheet.pdf
http://downloads.channelmaster.com/Sheets/50+Series+Product+Sheet.pdf

Winegard: HD-7694P: [Higher Performance than the above choices]
Lowest overall price is probably Amazon.com with Free Shipping via Prime membership:
https://www.amazon.com/Winegard-HD7...01DFTGR4?ie=UTF8&ref_=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top
http://www.winegard.com/kbase/uploads/HD7694P.pdf


----------



## tylerSC

The Winegard 7694 appears similar to the HBU22 and is the most reasonably priced. I would think that should work fine.


----------



## Larry Kenney

A lot of people in the San Francisco Bay Area have had very good results with the Winegard 7694.


----------



## ay221

I have the Winegard installed and it's working great. The only dislike I have is the need for a circuit board. I just hope it doesn't get zapped.


----------



## rabbit73

It isn't any more likely to get zapped than a balun. Most combo antennas use shorting stubs as a UHF/VHF combiner, which is simple, low cost and reliable. Winegard uses the CB-8269 circuit board combiner that functions as a true UVSJ, keeping both separate until they are combined, and as a balun.


----------



## rabbit73

The Winegard CB-8269 is quite reliable. If it fails, it can be a bad component or a poor contact between the prongs and the wires from each section. Winegard has a good troubleshooting video:


----------



## Wpsatisfide

New to ota tv besides rabbit years 30 years ago. I built a bowtie antenna which worked well for me at my house in myrtle beach so I built my mom one. It worked ok but she wants better and you have to keep momma happy.

Looking for some help with an antenna recommendations and which direction I should point it. Her house is one story but I'm guessing the top of her roof is probably 25 to 30 ft tall. 

She would be running about 5 tvs also. Any and all help is appreciated.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e2cbbcdc164584


----------



## bernieoc

I notice that the Wineguard 7694 only show stats for VHF CH 7 and higher - my PBS station is CH 3 - is that just too low VHS for this antenna?
Do I need my HUGE CH 3 only antenna and a combiner that I use with a UHF antenna combiner?
I get CH 3 but it is sensitive to interference and weather.


----------



## Calaveras

bernieoc said:


> I notice that the Wineguard 7694 only show stats for VHF CH 7 and higher - my PBS station is CH 3 - is that just too low VHS for this antenna?
> Do I need my HUGE CH 3 only antenna and a combiner that I use with a UHF antenna combiner?
> I get CH 3 but it is sensitive to interference and weather.



RF 3 or virtual 3? We have no idea. Please post your TV Fool report and start a new thread.


----------



## Calaveras

Wpsatisfide said:


> New to ota tv besides rabbit years 30 years ago. I built a bowtie antenna which worked well for me at my house in myrtle beach so I built my mom one. It worked ok but she wants better and you have to keep momma happy.
> 
> Looking for some help with an antenna recommendations and which direction I should point it. Her house is one story but I'm guessing the top of her roof is probably 25 to 30 ft tall.
> 
> She would be running about 5 tvs also. Any and all help is appreciated.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e2cbbcdc164584



This should be a new thread since it's about a specific reception situation. This thread is for generic antenna discussion. Follow the sticky above.


----------



## fbov

Wpsatisfide said:


> New to ota tv besides rabbit years 30 years ago. I built a bowtie antenna...


Then the DIY antenna thread may be of interest, too.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/798265-how-build-uhf-antenna.html

DO NOT build the one in the first link. I'm still using the 4-bay bowtie shown starting at the bottom of page 1, but there is a huge amount of information here, so don't stop there!

HAve fun,
Frank


----------



## holl_ands

bernieoc said:


> I notice that the Wineguard 7694 only show stats for VHF CH 7 and higher - my PBS station is CH 3 - is that just too low VHS for this antenna?
> Do I need my HUGE CH 3 only antenna and a combiner that I use with a UHF antenna combiner?
> I get CH 3 but it is sensitive to interference and weather.


W-G HD-769x Series are Hi-VHF+UHF Combo's with minimal Gain in Lo-VHF (Ch2-6+FM) Band.
W-G HD-8200 (and HD-7084) are their ALL BAND Combos (Ch2-69). Solid Signal also offers a Clone of the HD-8200.

Earlier post seems to say you live in/near Lynchburg, within the Roanoke DMA.
Roanoke DMA Report shows THREE Stations in Lo-VHF Band on REAL Ch3 (PBS), Ch4 [CBS, Duplicate to UHF Ch18 & Ch19] and Ch5 [ABC, Duplicate to Hi-VHF Ch13] You SHOULD already be receiving Ch18 (or Ch19) and Ch13 and wouldn't NEED Ch4 and Ch5 [can you confirm???]:
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=wbra#station

Although NOT shown in the above Roanoke DMA Report [I'm looking at TVFool for downtown Zipcode], there is a PBS Station on Ch11 (WVPT) that you MAY be receiving if you have a Hi-VHF Antenna with significant amount of Gain....can you confirm??? Would this fulfill your requirement for PBS if you can receive it??? Or are they broadcasting significantly DIFFERENT schedules and you would prefer to receive BOTH???

YES, you would need a HUGE Antenna for PBS on Ch3.....but before we can recommend a suitable Antenna(s), we first need to see a link to your TVFool Report [WebAddress URL at top of Browser after enter Location].

What is your current Antenna(s) situation???? Indoor vs Outdoor??? Would a ROTATOR be acceptable or are you looking for a (probably) multiple Antenna solution???

It also helps if you provide FMFool Report for your Location to check on second Harmonic Interference to Ch11 and Ch13 in Hi-VHF Band. 
[In Firefox: Rt-Click "View Background Image" and then Copy/Paste URL at top of Web Browser.] 
[In IE: PRINT SCREEN then use MSPAINT (etc) to crop and convert to compressed *.jpg File for uplink to User's Image Library and then cite Image URL in Post.]


----------



## wildwillie6

*Return of the JOINtenna?*

I received email from ChannelMaster today regarding a good old name -- "JOINtenna" -- for combining antenna inputs. (See http://www.channelmaster.com/JOINtenna_p/cm-0500.htm). But as I read through the information, I couldn't see that it was anything but a combiner. Does someone know: Is there anything in there that would cut out channel interference? Or is this just a combiner, likely to have interference problems?

[I have an old-style JOINtenna that passes through Channel 49 and not much else; provides the perfect solution for my situation, where WHSV-TV 3.x is badly off axis but everything else is nicely lined up.]


----------



## rabbit73

Uh-Oh, CM did it again. They used an old name for a new product that doesn't do the same thing, like the CM7777.

It appears to be a combiner, like a splitter in reverse, with an LTE filer added.

The original Jointenna was channel specific.

So, now we will have to say "sometimes it will work and sometimes not; you just have to try it."


Thanks for the tip.


----------



## tylerSC

Channel Master should use different names for their newer products to avoid confusion with the old versions which may not be the same. It seems like the new Jointenna may be a combiner but does not block or isolate any signals like the original version. So combining antennas may still cause problems unless this combiner magically isolates out of phase signals or distortions.


----------



## wildwillie6

tylerSC said:


> Channel Master should use different names for their newer products to avoid confusion with the old versions which may not be the same. It seems like the new Jointenna may be a combiner but does not block or isolate any signals like the original version. So combining antennas may still cause problems unless this combiner magically isolates out of phase signals or distortions.


What are the odds that Channel Master (1) discovered a little electronic thingie that would isolate those problems and (2) placed it into the sub-$40 new JOINtenna?

Just askin'.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

The odds of that would be zero. A $4 splitter will do the same thing (except for the LTE part).


----------



## holl_ands

I agree....See my comments re C-M JOINTENNA w LTE FILTER in the JoinTenna thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/1152566-great-jointenna-exchange-5.html#post46785073


----------



## poopboypat

Hi everyone, i have never really used anything other than rabbit ears and im moving to a new home and desisted to get rid of cable TV. I want to put an antenna in the attic and was wondering if anyone could give me some advice on what to get.

Here is my TV Fool:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e2cb8abce39591

Mainly i have been looking at these two would they work for me?

Xtreme Signal HDB8X-NI 8-Bay VHF/UHF

Channel Master CM-4228HD


Or are there any other antennas that will work. Im looking for a passive antenna, so that if need be I can add a pre-amp to it.


----------



## Calaveras

poopboypat said:


> Hi everyone, i have never really used anything other than rabbit ears and im moving to a new home and desisted to get rid of cable TV. I want to put an antenna in the attic and was wondering if anyone could give me some advice on what to get.
> 
> Here is my TV Fool:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e2cb8abce39591
> 
> Mainly i have been looking at these two would they work for me?
> 
> Xtreme Signal HDB8X-NI 8-Bay VHF/UHF
> 
> Channel Master CM-4228HD
> 
> 
> Or are there any other antennas that will work. Im looking for a passive antenna, so that if need be I can add a pre-amp to it.



You may want an attic antenna but your TV Fool report is saying "Outdoor antenna." All your stations are 1 or 2 edge which means an outdoor antenna is most likely needed. You also need a real VHF antenna (which the HDB8X is not) for the same reason. The Noise Margins are not that bad so a Winegard HD7698P on the roof should work fine as long as it's not looking into trees or buildings. I'm assuming you're most interested in those stations centered around 317 degrees.


----------



## poopboypat

Calaveras said:


> You may want an attic antenna but your TV Fool report is saying "Outdoor antenna." All your stations are 1 or 2 edge which means an outdoor antenna is most likely needed. You also need a real VHF antenna (which the HDB8X is not) for the same reason. The Noise Margins are not that bad so a Winegard HD7698P on the roof should work fine as long as it's not looking into trees or buildings. I'm assuming you're most interested in those stations centered around 317 degrees.


Well i guess I wont be getting an antenna then.. We will be in an area with an HOA, and its not worth the permits. Is there really no antena that I can use in the attic. Even if its just UHF, majority of the channels are UHF.


----------



## Nate_KS

Not sure if this query belongs in this thread but it seems likely.

I've been tossing an idea around in my head about relocating the TV antenna to the upright silo on the farmstead I live on. Advantage is that I would relocate the antenna away from my main amateur radio tower. The disadvantage is that the silo is about 100 yards away from the house and there are three driveways where tractors and other equipment travel so a cable run would need to be high enough to allow them to pass underneath. Fortunately, there are poles in place with AC triplex service that are a direct run from the silo to the backside of the house.

The first option would be 75 ohm cable with a messenger cable attached. As I see it this would likely require a preamp at the antenna so I would need to run power up the silo, no big deal, actually.

A second option might be fiber optic cable with a messenger and associated conversion equipment at each end.

Both of these options require that the cable be placed for adequate ground clearance which may be questionable over the main driveway. The first option would likely be the most straightforward and probably the cheapest as no media conversion is required. Option 1 may have the disadvantage of being located very closely to the AC triplex.

A third option would be wireless. If no off the shelf item exists, I could envision a DIY that would use a Raspberry Pi or some such running MythTV for a remote tuner. The disadvantage with this setup would be only being able to watch one channel at a time on all TVs connected to the system. The ideal system would be some wireless method that upconverts the TV spectrum to a license-free band and then downconverts it at the other end so the whole system mimics a 75 ohm cable run and each TV could be tuned to whatever channel simultaneously. I'm asking as I don't know that such a set of devices exist for home use over a span of about 100 yards or so.

Any of the options would require running power up the silo to the antenna which, as previously noted, is quite doable. I just want to avoid having to procure and hang commercial grade cable if possible. A wireless option would seem to be best as the cable issues such as clearance, grounding differences between the silo and house, and lightning protection are avoided.

Thanks!


----------



## rabbit73

poopboypat said:


> Well i guess I wont be getting an antenna then.. We will be in an area with an HOA, and its not worth the permits. Is there really no antena that I can use in the attic. Even if its just UHF, majority of the channels are UHF.


The signal loss in the attic is difficult to predict. Why don't you try a temporary setup in the attic before drilling any holes to see what you can get.


You don't need a permit. The FCC say you CAN have an outdoor antenna in spite of the HOA.
https://www.fcc.gov/media/over-air-reception-devices-rule


----------



## rabbit73

Nate_KS said:


> The first option would be 75 ohm cable with a messenger cable attached. As I see it this would likely require a preamp at the antenna so I would need to run power up the silo, no big deal, actually.


The DC power for the preamp can go up the same coax as used for the signals coming down. This is normal for a preamp. The power inserter would be located inside. You know the power inserter as a "Bias-T" in ham lingo.

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=820

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=1286


----------



## Calaveras

poopboypat said:


> Well i guess I wont be getting an antenna then.. We will be in an area with an HOA, and its not worth the permits. Is there really no antena that I can use in the attic. Even if its just UHF, majority of the channels are UHF.



If you own the roof then the HOA has no jurisdiction over this. You can put up any antenna you need to receive your local stations with a few limitations. These HOA rules have been preempted by the FCC. See this FCC fact sheet:

https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/installing-consumer-owned-antennas-and-satellite-dishes

No permits are required. If the HOA gives you grief then direct them to this document.


----------



## Calaveras

Nate_KS said:


> Not sure if this query belongs in this thread but it seems likely.
> 
> I've been tossing an idea around in my head about relocating the TV antenna to the upright silo on the farmstead I live on. Advantage is that I would relocate the antenna away from my main amateur radio tower. The disadvantage is that the silo is about 100 yards away from the house and there are three driveways where tractors and other equipment travel so a cable run would need to be high enough to allow them to pass underneath. Fortunately, there are poles in place with AC triplex service that are a direct run from the silo to the backside of the house.
> 
> The first option would be 75 ohm cable with a messenger cable attached. As I see it this would likely require a preamp at the antenna so I would need to run power up the silo, no big deal, actually.
> 
> A second option might be fiber optic cable with a messenger and associated conversion equipment at each end.
> 
> Both of these options require that the cable be placed for adequate ground clearance which may be questionable over the main driveway. The first option would likely be the most straightforward and probably the cheapest as no media conversion is required. Option 1 may have the disadvantage of being located very closely to the AC triplex.
> 
> A third option would be wireless. If no off the shelf item exists, I could envision a DIY that would use a Raspberry Pi or some such running MythTV for a remote tuner. The disadvantage with this setup would be only being able to watch one channel at a time on all TVs connected to the system. The ideal system would be some wireless method that upconverts the TV spectrum to a license-free band and then downconverts it at the other end so the whole system mimics a 75 ohm cable run and each TV could be tuned to whatever channel simultaneously. I'm asking as I don't know that such a set of devices exist for home use over a span of about 100 yards or so.
> 
> Any of the options would require running power up the silo to the antenna which, as previously noted, is quite doable. I just want to avoid having to procure and hang commercial grade cable if possible. A wireless option would seem to be best as the cable issues such as clearance, grounding differences between the silo and house, and lightning protection are avoided.
> 
> Thanks!



You really ought to start a separate thread for this with you location in the title and a link to your TV Fool report as required in the sticky above. My ham towers are over 400' from my house and I have 575' of coax running to the TV antennas. 430' of it is surplus cable TV 1/2" hardline. You may be able to get away with RG-11 but we need to see your TV Fool report.

AA6G


----------



## holl_ands

holl_ands said:


> Unfortunately "specs" (such as they are) for CM LTE Filter are even LESS REVEALING than "specs" for CM7777HD Amplify Preamp....they simply state that it will "Pass" 5-699 MHz and will "Block" 700-2000 MHz [presumably a "Perfect" Filter with "only" a 1 Hz Transition Region...totally impossible], so we have NO CLUE as to HOW MUCH Attenuation is provided on the important Cell Tower Transmit Frequencies:
> http://downloads.channelmaster.com/Sheets/LTE+Filter+spec+sheet.pdf
> http://downloads.channelmaster.com/Sheets/3201_Instruction+Sheet.pdf
> 
> BTW it is NOT POSSIBLE to build a tiny little Filter that will have any sort of effectiveness against [mostly AT&T] Cell Phone Transmissions in 704-716 MHz Band, although it is realistic to expect significant Attenuation of the two [typ. AT&T + Verizon] Cell Tower Transmission Bands from 734-758 MHz. As shown in fol. posts, REAL Filters will have a fairly significant TRANSITION REGION from fairly low Loss on 698 MHz [RS has 4.35 dB Loss] to high Loss beginning on 734 MHz:
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81-...amps-preamps-distro-amps-197.html#post1388395
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81-...ew-digital-services-tower-10.html#post2587202


Charles Rhodes (TV Technology Magazine) measured Frequency Response of CM Stand-Alone LTE Filter. It provides about 50+ dB Insertion Loss against ATT+Verizon Cell Towers [734-758 MHz]....but there is significant LOSS on Upper UHF Frequencies....so Do NOT use one unless you NEED IT:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/resources/0006/outofband-interference-myth-or-reality/279393


----------



## Nate_KS

Calaveras said:


> You really ought to start a separate thread for this with you location in the title and a link to your TV Fool report as required in the sticky above. My ham towers are over 400' from my house and I have 575' of coax running to the TV antennas. 430' of it is surplus cable TV 1/2" hardline. You may be able to get away with RG-11 but we need to see your TV Fool report.
> 
> AA6G


Separate thread started.


----------



## rabbit73

That's good, but our previous answers are still here. If the moderator doesn't move them we will have to repeat them or switch back and forth between threads.


----------



## tylerSC

holl_ands said:


> Charles Rhodes (TV Technology Magazine) measured Frequency Response of CM Stand-Alone LTE Filter. It provides about 50+ dB Insertion Loss against ATT+Verizon Cell Towers [734-758 MHz]....but there is significant LOSS on Upper UHF Frequencies....so Do NOT use one unless you NEED IT:
> http://www.tvtechnology.com/resources/0006/outofband-interference-myth-or-reality/279393



The reviews of the new CM-7777 Amplify on their website have generally been favorable. And it reportedly has a built in LTE filter. And nice adjustable gain of either 17db or 30 db. But not sure about the noise figure or overload tolerance, and a bit pricey. Not much discussion here, and would be nice if they would use a different model number to avoid confusion with previous products.


----------



## tylerSC

tylerSC said:


> The reviews of the new CM-7777 Amplify on their website have generally been favorable. And it reportedly has a built in LTE filter. And nice adjustable gain of either 17db or 30 db. But not sure about the noise figure or overload tolerance, and a bit pricey. Not much discussion here, and would be nice if they would use a different model number to avoid confusion with previous products.


The new CM-7777 Amplify is now sold out. Meanwhile some of their distribution amps are now on sale.


----------



## tylerSC

Antennas Direct Clearstream 4V antenna now on sale at Best Buy for $79. Very good Black Friday price for very good, compact attic/outdoor antenna. Regularly $169. Sale may end today as they usually change every Sunday.


----------



## PCTools

I thought they do not like when we talk about prices on here.


----------



## tylerSC

PCTools said:


> I thought they do not like when we talk about prices on here.


Price talk is restricted in certain TV Display threads. I don't think it matters in the antenna section. However, mods may correct if that is the case.

But I will say the Clearstream 4V is a good , compact UHF antenna that adds the VHF dipole. It has good gain for limited space where an 8 bay may be too large. And the recent sale was a good time to purchase if needed, because it is often a bit pricey.


----------



## kram1

Could someone knowledgeable with antennas please help choice the best possible antenna for my particular area ? 

Was trying to get some advice on the TV Fool site but that site seems to be having some issues First it won't allow me post in the forum second it errors out when you try and msg for site help third I PMed a few of the forum mods but no one replies ?


----------



## rabbit73

There is a shortage of moderators there, and moderator GroundUrMast has health problems. Some people have to wait a long time to post; others are never accepted. The last time I checked, the site was down. Fortunately, they can still generate a signal report (when the site is up); there isn't a good alternative. 

Where will the antenna be located?

Your signals are very strong and in the same direction. You will need an antenna for UHF and VHF-High.

Any trees or buildings in the signal path from about 160 degrees?

Without any further information from you, if the antenna is outside I suggest an RCA ANT751, no preamp.

If the antenna is outside, the coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety and to reject interference. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge which will tend to discourage a strike, but the system will not survive a direct strike.


----------



## kram1

Great Thanks for the thorough reply
Right now I'm just using this below posted link Winegard FL-55YR Flatwave 
I have it just tapped up on the wall above the tv on the first floor room in the house on a good day I can scan in 59 channels.
But I'm getting some fadeout here and there. 
I wanted to see if I could do better not knowing which antennas would work best for me I just been trying different antennas readily available and easily returnable from local Walmart which has a pretty good selection but so far none bet out the Winegard FL-55YR 

Below is a picture of my house the front of the house faces true north the room behind the window to the right is where the tv stays 
No matter where I mount there won't be a totally clear signal path with big trees everywhere specially alot of tree in the north path even at the highest peak of the house 
The highest and most ideal spot to mount would be on the right side peak of the house theirs already a satellite dish bracket left up there the problem is its way to high even my 30ft ladder won't make it up there I'd have to hire someone so my question is would I really benefit from going up there considering still be some big trees blocking signal ? 
Would the RCA ANT751 still be my best choice if I can't get a clear signal path?
I'd want to try and mount it off the fascia board maybe 3/4 up more manageable spot i can get to ?

https://www.amazon.com/Winegard-FL-...00LAA45PA/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8


----------



## tylerSC

kram1 said:


> Great Thanks for the thorough reply
> Right now I'm just using this below posted link Winegard FL-55YR Flatwave
> I have it just tapped up on the wall above the tv on the first floor room in the house on a good day I can scan in 59 channels.
> But I'm getting some fadeout here and there.
> I wanted to see if I could do better not knowing which antennas would work best for me I just been trying different antennas readily available and easily returnable from local Walmart which has a pretty good selection but so far none bet out the Winegard FL-55YR
> 
> Below is a picture of my house the front of the house faces true north the room behind the window to the right is where the tv stays
> No matter where I mount there won't be a totally clear signal path with big trees everywhere specially alot of tree in the north path even at the highest peak of the house
> The highest and most ideal spot to mount would be on the right side peak of the house theirs already a satellite dish bracket left up there the problem is its way to high even my 30ft ladder won't make it up there I'd have to hire someone so my question is would I really benefit from going up there considering still be some big trees blocking signal ?
> Would the RCA ANT751 still be my best choice if I can't get a clear signal path?
> I'd want to try and mount it off the fascia board maybe 3/4 up more manageable spot i can get to ?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Winegard-FL-...00LAA45PA/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8


Those Flatwave style thin antennas can have certain limitations. Try removing the amp because sometimes that may cause overload issues in strong signal areas. As for the trees, a stronger outside antenna may help with more gain. You may want to consider a Winegard 7694 or 7697 antenna since trees may hinder reception. They are both combo antennas for High VHF and UHF. And you can use the same inline amp from the Flatwave antenna and see if it may help with the larger antenna. However, if you are in a strong signal area as it appears, you may not want to use the amp. Try with or without and see what works best.


----------



## ADTech

The amp in that antenna (FL-55YR) cannot be removed or separated, it's integrated into the balun and coax cable connection housing.


----------



## holl_ands

YES, RCA ANT-751 would be a good, inexpensive choice for a Hi-VHF/UHF Combo Antenna. I modeled Hi-VHF section, which provides about 5.8 to 7.6 dBi Gain. UHF section is SAME as old W-G HD7000 VHF/UHF Combo [Ch2 and up], providing about 5.8 to 8.3 dBi Gain in UHF Band....both with Good SWR.

We did an approximate 4nec2 Model for the W-B FL-55YR Flatwave Antenna....only 3-4 dBi Gain and Good SWR in UHF....and 2.5-2.8 dBi Gain and Excessive SWR [GT 20] in Hi-VHF Band....and Gain didn't go negative until Ch2/3....so NOT any better than UHF-Loop/VHF-Rabbit Ears....

A-D DB-4e 4-Bay Bowtie has more Gain than A-D CS-4 on upper UHF Channels [although with narrower Beamwidth]....and you can add A-D VHF Dipole Kit:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/Technical Data PDF's/DB4E-TDS.pdf [11.7 - 14.3 dBi in UHF Band]
https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/pdf/C4-sellsheet.pdf [11.5 - 12.25 dBi in UHF Band]

And Commercial 4-Bays from other sources (e.g. Solid Signal HDB-4X, CM4221HD, et. al.) can be purchased for a LOT LESS....
And small Commercial 2-Bays are only $25-30 with 3 dB less Gain (e.g. Solid Signal Extreme and Eagle Aspen):
http://www.solidsignal.com/search.asp?q=2-bay 4-bay bowtie antenna
IF needed, A-D VHF Antenna Kit could be added....or if you are handy, hack the antenna to replace PCB Balun with the usual Cylindrical Transformer Balun to restore the Hi-VHF performance inherent in a typical 2-Bay Antenna, such as M2 with Grid Reflector [Item a]:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/2bayrefl


----------



## kram1

My local Walmart has both the RCA ANT 7511 and the have the smaller 751R antenna 
Which one is better for my situation ??
Just to reiterate the front of my house points north no matter where I plant the antenna theirs going to be some kind of trees blocking signal path 
The TV sits in the room behind the windows on the right 
The simplest thing for me to do is drill a hole through the wall on the right side of the picture everything i need including a ground is already right out there on that side of the house 
The house is to tall for me to make it all the way up and to steep last time I tried to clime up there I almost slid off 
I already have a 30ft ladder sitting there on that side of the house that will get me about 3 forth the way up 
Since mounting all the way up above the roof isn't going to get me above the trees will going higher buy me better signal ?
To mount on or above the roof I'd have to hire someone don't really want to do all that 
I'd much prefer to mount myself in a place i can get to to manage and make any needed adjustments 
So if I mount 3/4 up on the right side off the fascia boards what would be best place to mount back or front and which way to point?
The house next door is like right up against me like 15ft away and about the same height will be blocking on my west 
I really don't have any experience with antenna but the TV Fool scan shows towers split north and south woulds i want some kind of multi directional antenna 
Just scanner in the FL-55YR again getting 59 channels not bad I've gone through half a dozen different indoor antennas and none get as many channel as this cheap little antenna


----------



## SFischer1

kram1 said:


> ...
> So if I mount 3/4 up on the right side off the fascia boards what would be best place to mount back or front and which way to point?
> The house next door is like right up against me like 15ft away and about the same height will be blocking on my west
> I really don't have any experience with antenna but the TV Fool scan shows towers split north and south woulds i want some kind of multi directional antenna
> ...


Someone in San Jose tried to put an antenna between two buildings almost at ground level, I was very shocked when I saw a picture of what he was trying. He kept reporting problems that were not able to be overcome.

If you are serious for OTA then hire someone to put an antenna on the top of your roof.

I cannot get the TVFool map up because the site is down. Perhaps Chuck will reply. To me South is the direction to aim for. The ones to the North appear to be dups. YMMV

I leave antenna selection to him, I am old school and am not versed in the new (To me useless) antennas.

SHF


----------



## hdtvluvr

I'm not Chuck  but if it was me, I'd go with:
https://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master-CM-4228HD-High-Antenna/dp/B000FVVKQM

Notice the 2 reflectors (wire grids behind the >


----------



## SFischer1

hdtvluvr said:


> I'm not Chuck  but if it was me, I'd go with:
> https://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master-CM-4228HD-High-Antenna/dp/B000FVVKQM
> 
> Notice the 2 reflectors (wire grids behind the >


----------



## hdtvluvr

SFischer1 said:


> Indoor and Attic antennas are problematic, not to be recommended to anyone. IMHO


I agree not ideal but if he can't get it on the roof without hired help, it's worth a try. Most of the stations were within 20 miles if I remember correctly. If it doesn't work he could go outside on an eave in the back like in your photos. It should be low enough that he can do it without help.

I think the antenna would be a good choice.

I agree that measurements should be taken precisely as to see if it can get through the opening and also stand up in the attic.

Mine is sitting on the joists and is leaned against the rafters so no hanging was necessary.


----------



## tylerSC

ADTech said:


> The amp in that antenna (FL-55YR) cannot be removed or separated, it's integrated into the balun and coax cable connection housing.


Thanks for clarifying. I did not remember that. I believe the similar Moho Leaf antenna has the removeable amp.


----------



## kram1

Anyone know the difference between the RCA ANT 7511 and the smaller 751R antenna both selling for same price at Walmart $54 Wondering is there any significant difference between them which one would be best for me


----------



## ProjectSHO89

They're probably the same antenna, Walmart often has specific packaging requirements that force manufacturers to have a Walmart-exclusive model number or SKU. A google search of "RCA ANT7511" comes up pretty empty for anything that is specifically for that model number.

Pretty flagrant violation of advertising ethics (is there such a thing for antennas?) of RCA to slap marking on the box for "70+ Miles" and "Receives 4K Broadcasts" (they don't exist yet) on this little suburban antenna, IMHO.


----------



## kram1

ProjectSHO89 said:


> They're probably the same antenna, Walmart often has specific packaging requirements that force manufacturers to have a Walmart-exclusive model number or SKU. A google search of "RCA ANT7511" comes up pretty empty for anything that is specifically for that model number.
> 
> Pretty flagrant violation of advertising ethics (is there such a thing for antennas?) of RCA to slap marking on the box for "70+ Miles" and "Receives 4K Broadcasts" (they don't exist yet) on this little suburban antenna, IMHO.



Definitely both not the same antennas you can see in the picture below the RCA ANT7511 is the bigger and the RCA ANT751R is smaller 
Both claim 70 channels pretty much everything else is the same on the label except the smaller ones label says revision 2016 and the bigger one says 2013 making me think maybe the smaller one is a newer version of the antenna also the smaller one says out performs most bigger antennas?


----------



## rabbit73

Just because the box is bigger doesn't mean the antenna is bigger. The newer version could have a different method of assembly and packaging to reduce manufacturing and shipping costs.

The only way to be certain is to assemble both antennas and put them side by side.

If you look at the Tetrapole UHF loop driven element on the boxes, you can see that it is the same size and has the same relative position to the adjacent elements. The size of the Tetrapole, and the adjacent elements, is determined by frequency, which must be the same for both antennas.
http://www.bhg.com/shop/rca-rca-out...nt7511-p4e5e5c35a13f854dac5af3d81283f3a3.html

https://www.lowes.com/pd/RCA-Outdoo...SID=1131941878013&CA_6C15C=320011480007446258

https://www.lowes.com/pd/RCA-Outdoor-Digital-HDTV-VHF-UHF-Yagi-Type-Antenna/1000108007


The RCA ANT7511 at Lowe's looks like the RCA ANT751 to me.

http://www.rcaantennas.net/outdoor/?sku=ANT751R

http://www.rcaantennas.net/docs/common/ANT751R/ANT751R_OM.pdf


----------



## ProjectSHO89

> you can see in the picture below the RCA ANT7511 is the bigger and the RCA ANT751R is smaller


All I can see is that one box is bigger than the other. The graphics on the boxes appear, at least in the photo, to be of the same antenna.



> also the smaller one says out performs most bigger antennas?


There's very, very little about "RCA"'s marketing claims that I have any confidence in.


----------



## kram1

Did a quick install the RCA ANT751R today instantly scanned in 81 channels nice 
After cleaning up the channels deleting blank dead foreign shopping and religious channels I'm left with 50 solid channels 
I didn't even attempt to install really high up on top of the roof just went as high as a could with the ladder I had available 
Wondering if there would be any real benefit going higher or grabbing the CM4228HD instead 
I'm not seeing any break up on the channels there coming in solid 

I don't mind spending the extra $$ a pro higher install or on the CM4228HD just wondering what will it buy me in my area ??





rabbit73 said:


> Just because the box is bigger doesn't mean the antenna is bigger. The newer version could have a different method of assembly and packaging to reduce manufacturing and shipping costs.
> 
> The only way to be certain is to assemble both antennas and put them side by side.
> 
> If you look at the Tetrapole UHF loop driven element on the boxes, you can see that it is the same size and has the same relative position to the adjacent elements. The size of the Tetrapole, and the adjacent elements, is determined by frequency, which must be the same for both antennas.
> http://www.bhg.com/shop/rca-rca-out...nt7511-p4e5e5c35a13f854dac5af3d81283f3a3.html
> 
> https://www.lowes.com/pd/RCA-Outdoo...SID=1131941878013&CA_6C15C=320011480007446258
> 
> https://www.lowes.com/pd/RCA-Outdoor-Digital-HDTV-VHF-UHF-Yagi-Type-Antenna/1000108007
> 
> 
> The RCA ANT7511 at Lowe's looks like the RCA ANT751 to me.
> 
> http://www.rcaantennas.net/outdoor/?sku=ANT751R
> 
> http://www.rcaantennas.net/docs/common/ANT751R/ANT751R_OM.pdf


----------



## SFischer1

kram1 said:


> ...
> I'm not seeing any break up on the channels there coming in solid
> 
> I don't mind spending the extra $$ higher install or on the CM4228HD just what will it buy me ??


Are you a DTV DXer or a program watcher?

I am the latter but there are many DXers around who want to build lists of what they can receive and under what conditions and are constantly checking.

If you get the programs you want then be happy. All will change in three years when the DTV repack happens and you may need a completely different antenna for VHF Lo.

SHF


----------



## kram1

I never even heard the term DTV DXer I had to google it to figure out what your talking about 
I'm just a guy playing around with trying to but the cable seeing what I can get with out it 
Trying to get the best bang for my buck is all 
Do you think going higher up or grabbing a CM4228HD is going to make a difference ?



SFischer1 said:


> Are you a DTV DXer or a program watcher?
> 
> I am the latter but there are many DXers around who want to build lists of what they can receive and under what conditions and are constantly checking.
> 
> If you get the programs you want then be happy. All will change in three years when the DTV repack happens and you may need a completely different antenna for VHF Lo.
> 
> SHF


----------



## SFischer1

kram1 said:


> I never even heard the term DTV DXer I had to google it to figure out what your talking about
> I'm just a guy playing around with trying to but the cable seeing what I can get with out it
> Trying to get the best bang for my buck is all
> Do you think going higher up or grabbing a CM4228HD is going to make a difference ?


That is an question for the antenna expert who just made a post elsewhere who can read the TVFool's like the back of his hand.

Try posting your TVFool link, that might encourage him to chime in. Mine looks like this:

*http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=dfaf4989f75b87 *

The normal TVFool image cuts off some of the information at the bottom preventing my poor guesses that the antenna expert can recognize immediately. That's one reason the link is asked for.

The TV Fool Google map gave me a picture of where you are:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90 

Click on "*Show lines pointing to each transmitter".*

The CM4228HD has more gain for UHF and less for VHF being limited to RF 6 and above. The RCA ANT751R is more directional than the CM4228HD, having stations ~ 180 degrees apart is usually bad for the CM4228HD.

Try matching what you can receive with the TVFool list. Is there any network that is missing that you want?

http://www.rabbitears.info/networkgrid.php

SHF


----------



## kram1

Here 
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=dfaf72007de500http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90




SFischer1 said:


> That is an question for the antenna expert who just made a post elsewhere who can read the TVFool's like the back of his hand.
> 
> Try posting your TVFool link, that might encourage him to chime in. Mine looks like this:
> 
> *http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=dfaf4989f75b87 *
> 
> The normal TVFool image cuts off some of the information at the bottom preventing my poor guesses that the antenna expert can recognize immediately. That's one reason the link is asked for.
> 
> The TV Fool Google map gave me a picture of where you are:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90
> 
> Click on "*Show lines pointing to each transmitter".*
> 
> The CM4228HD has more gain for UHF and less for VHF being limited to RF 6 and above. The RCA ANT751R is more directional than the CM4228HD, having stations ~ 180 degrees apart is usually bad for the CM4228HD.
> 
> Try matching what you can receive with the TVFool list. Is there any network that is missing that you want?
> 
> http://www.rabbitears.info/networkgrid.php
> 
> SHF


----------



## ProjectSHO89

> The CM4228HD has more gain for UHF


Yes, by a long shot.


> less for VHF being limited to RF 6 and above.


Unknown. I've never seen either modeling or field testing that characterized either antenna on the VHF band.


> The RCA ANT751R is more directional than the CM4228HD


On UHF, absolutely not as the 8 bay antenna is designed to be very directional. On VHF, unknown.


> having stations ~ 180 degrees apart is usually bad for the CM4228HD.


If the stations are weak, very true. If the stations are strong as in this case, it probably doesn't matter, they're still strong enough to come in off the back side as the F/B ratio is insufficient to suppress a station with a NM of over 20dB (just a broad estimate, it's probably closer to 10 dB).



> Wondering if there would be any real benefit going higher or grabbing the CM4228HD instead
> I'm not seeing any break up on the channels there coming in solid


If you're getting all of the networks reliably and you're not missing anything you know you'd like, go watch TV and be done with for now.


----------



## holl_ands

*SFisher1:* TVFool Report for your Zipcode Location....since you are in a flat valley, should be close to your actual location:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=dfaf663195017b

Since you have STRONG Stations, mostly towards 321-deg (re True North), incl. Ch2-4 + Ch6, you would be best served by using an Antenna that covers the ENTIRE TV Bands (Ch2-51), such as the fol. W-G HD-7000R. The low Front/Back Ratios SHOULD also permit you to receive signals coming from the SOUTH 144-148 deg (re True North). And to receive NEARBY Signals (13-14 miles) from the EAST at 40-deg (re True North) may require tweaking Antenna direction back and forth a bit so that the SIDE NULL isn't pointing exactly in THAT direction: 
https://www.amazon.com/Winegard-Company-Compact-Antenna-HD7000R/dp/B001TIQ6SW

=========================================================
CM4228HD is a UHF-ONLY Antenna and (like most other commercial Antennas now on the market) uses a PCB (Printed Circuit Board) Balun designed for the UHF (only) Band. Loss through the CM4228HD's PCB Balun (as well as other similar, but different PCB Baluns) is UNKNOWN. FWIW: If you want to "hack" the CM4228HD and replace PCB Balun with a conventional cylindrical Transformer Balun, while modifying with the HHH (Holl_ands Horizontal Harness), then the Hi-VHF Response would be greatly improved, as I modeled here...although high SWR in Hi-VHF Band may or may NOT be a problem....and if it is, try adding short [9-24 inch] pieces of coax to MOVE the NULL away from the end of the downlead:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl/newcm4228hdwithhollandshorizharness

BTW: Although ANY 'Ol Piece of Metal suspended in mid-air MIGHT be enough to receive your Strong signals on Ch2-4 + Ch6, you may or may NOT receive them using just the CM4228HD....and it probably won't pick up UHF Stations towards SOUTH and EAST. You can TRY it....but you MIGHT need some sort of Antenna(s) DESIGNED to receive them....even if it's just a simple Lo-VHF Folded Dipole:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/vhffoldeddipole

=========================================================
RCA ANT751 (which is SAME as Denny's EZHD and appears to be SAME as ANT7511), uses a conventional Cylindrical Transformer Balun which passes entire VHF and UHF Bands (Ch2-51). Fol. are EVAL Results for a model with JUST the last four VHF Elements....Note that Ch2-6 Gain is no better than a RESONANT Dipole CUT for each Channel....with VERY EXCESSIVE SWR. MAY or May NOT be good enough to receive Strong Ch2-4 + Ch6. See WG-7000 specs for UHF Gain, since it uses the SAME UHF section:
http://manuals.solidsignal.com/HD7000R.pdf



Code:


Input file : X:\4nec2\H+U\H+U - EZHD + RCA ANT751 8-El LogYag\EZHD - IF ALL Tubular\
EZHD_ALLTubular_El5Source_TL Zc=150 Zn=150.nec

         --- Gain ---              -- Ratios -- -- Impedance --
   Freq    Raw    Net   SWR BeamW    F/R    F/B    Real    Imag  AGT  corr
============================================================
Lo-VHF (Ch2-6) Band:
   54.0  -1.77 -20.73 312.85  88.7   0.15   0.15   10.32  937.17 1.00 -0.00
   60.0   0.39 -17.95 270.97  84.4   0.21   0.21    4.06 -490.12 1.00 -0.00
   66.0   1.64 -18.61 422.20  82.2   0.30   0.30    0.95 -175.38 1.00 -0.00
   72.0   2.26 -18.93 524.36  81.1   0.39   0.39    0.63  -94.70 1.00 -0.00
   78.0   2.55 -18.61 520.28  80.6   0.52   0.52    0.60  -55.23 1.00 -0.00
   84.0   2.69 -17.83 449.60  80.4   0.67   0.67    0.67  -30.15 1.00 -0.00

FM Band:
   90.0   2.77 -16.75 356.20  80.2   0.85   0.85    0.84  -11.58 1.00 -0.00
   96.0   2.83 -15.42 265.60  80.2   1.07   1.07    1.13    3.69 1.00 -0.00
  102.0   2.89 -13.89 188.74  80.2   1.33   1.33    1.59   17.29 1.00 -0.00
  108.0   2.97 -12.16 128.47  80.1   1.65   1.65    2.36   30.23 1.00 -0.00

Hi-VHF (Ch7-13) Band:
  174.0   6.30   3.54  5.37  69.8  15.81  15.81   60.00   80.22 1.00 -0.01
  180.0   6.77   3.46  6.41  67.9  18.22  18.22   51.61   95.11 1.00 -0.01
  186.0   7.15   3.26  7.68  66.4  18.09  18.09   45.30  118.42 1.00 -0.01
  192.0   7.41   3.05  8.80  64.9  17.41  17.41   43.30  154.86 1.00 -0.01
  198.0   7.49   3.11  8.86  63.5  19.26  19.26   52.06  217.59 1.00 -0.01
  204.0   7.20   3.78  6.65  61.9  19.12  24.18  114.63  361.60 1.00  0.01
  210.0   6.31   5.08  2.98  60.6  12.58  12.58  875.77  117.79 1.00  0.01
  216.0   2.48   1.66  2.42  85.5  -1.35  -1.35  670.44 -175.56 1.00  0.01


----------



## holl_ands

PS: Here's FMFool Report for your Zipcode location.....VERY Strong Signals, second Harmonics fall into Hi-VHF Band. But Ch9 should be strong enough so that it PROBABLY is not affected....and you probably can't get Hi-VHF Band signals in TVFool's RED ZONE anyway. If you decide to use a Preamp or Distribution Amplifier, you would NEED to add a FULL BAND FM Filter on the Amp's Input. Use Antennas Direct FM Filter if you do NOT want to receive Ch6 and Radio-Shack (or maybe internal Preamp FM Filter) if you DO want to receive Ch6. If desired, you should use a SEPARATE FM Antenna and Coax downlead:


----------



## SFischer1

holl_ands said:


> SFisher1: TVFool Report for your Zipcode Location....since you are in a flat valley, should be close to your actual location:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=dfaf663195017b
> 
> ...


Flat Valley with mountains all around. Multipath HELL!!!　

I don't know why you posted this, I am highly aware where the stations are due to the DXer in San Francisco who lives in the shadow of the Sutro Tower monstrosity and maintains our DTV station list.

http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=2165469

My CM4228HD was installed ~ 06-15-2010 and has been working quite well 98.7 % of the time.

I recently lost KTVU VC 2 RF 44 due to some of the trees loosing their leaves and other trees keeping their leaves on longer, something that will be corrected soon. (~1972 leaves were off the trees by November 1, now some remain on until January.)

Some heavy early rains in October has changed the leave drop schedule causing severe multi-path forcing me to use another antenna for KTVU VC 2 RF 48. (After connecting an antenna to the fourth of my HDHR tuners which I did not realize was disconnected.)

I will perhaps be in trouble when the DTV re-pack happens if VHF Lo is needed as my VHF Lo-Hi antenna in the attic is disconnected and useless due to the metal roof. That blocks reception from the East and South. (Only one antenna allowed.)

-----------------------------------------------------
　
The FMFool report is also of no interest to as I listen to only one Radio station and have since I arrived in California just after we walked on the moon first. (One of those two men just was flown back from the South Pole due to an emergency.)

http://www.kdfc.com/

SHF


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## unavol

I'm just starting to venture into the antenna realm, and I've seen a couple of references to the DTV re-pack in this thread. Can someone please explain what that means in layman terms? I'm still trying to learn the basics, and I'm finding that there's a lot to learn in regard to OTA reception. What does "re-pack"mean from a practical standpoint? TIA


----------



## Larry Kenney

unavol said:


> I'm just starting to venture into the antenna realm, and I've seen a couple of references to the DTV re-pack in this thread. Can someone please explain what that means in layman terms? I'm still trying to learn the basics, and I'm finding that there's a lot to learn in regard to OTA reception. What does "re-pack"mean from a practical standpoint? TIA


The FCC is auctioning off some of the TV frequencies for use by cell phone service. When the auction is complete, the TV band will undergo a re-pack where stations that are on the frequencies that are auctioned off will have to move. The last I heard, they were planning to get rid of TV channels 38 to 51.

Larry


----------



## unavol

Thanks for the response Larry. Where will the ones that get moved go? Is my current antenna (cm 8 bay) still going to pick them up, or will they be moving to a frequency that will require a new antenna?


----------



## tylerSC

unavol said:


> Thanks for the response Larry. Where will the ones that get moved go? Is my current antenna (cm 8 bay) still going to pick them up, or will they be moving to a frequency that will require a new antenna?


That depends on the channel assignment. If a UHF channel moves to VHF, then you need an antenna that also receives VHF. But if you already have a UHF/VHF combo antenna, then you may be OK.

The CM 8 bay is a UHF antenna but it may receive High VHF in a strong signal area. The newer CM-4228HD claims High VHF capability, and it does receive RF7 and a problematic RF13 at my location. I have one in the attic feeding the bonus room TV with a CM-3412 distribution amp.


----------



## holl_ands

While there are LOTS of viewers who can get away with [or are at least SATISFIED with] a UHF-Only Antenna, there are MANY people who already have Hi-VHF/UHF Combo [or Separate] Antenna(s). What MOST people do NOT have [anymore] is something that works all that well in the Lo-VHF (Ch2-6) Band...and trying to get a Hi-VHF Antenna to generate much Gain on Ch2/3 is problematic and SWR skyrockets off the Chart.

So SOME viewers may need to upgrade to SOMETHING HUGE if one or more stations relocates to Ch2-6.....which is esp. difficult for Indoor Antenna users who need MORE than simple Rabbit Ears. [PS: I posted numerous DIY Antenna Designs for Lo-VHF and Lo/Hi-VHF Bands.]

It is ALSO esp. difficult for a station to move to Ch2-6 due to the sheer SIZE/WEIGHT of the new Antenna and the likelihood that an ALL NEW TOWER might be needed unless they are lucky enough to take over an existing Transmitter Complex already using the target (or nearby) Lo-VHF Channel.

However, note that although Lo-VHF may have extended range and much lower Xmtr Power Requirements (saving on monthly power bill), it (as well as Hi-VHF) are NOT well suited for transmitting to MOBILE/HANDHELD users, where even an Antenna for UHF Band is "size-challenged". So Lo-VHF may become attractive for "bargain basement" TV operations....and UHF will be PRIME real estate....


----------



## Larry Kenney

unavol said:


> Thanks for the response Larry. Where will the ones that get moved go? Is my current antenna (cm 8 bay) still going to pick them up, or will they be moving to a frequency that will require a new antenna?


That's a good question that no one can answer yet. Some stations will be going off the air, some will be moving, some will be sharing with another station, so we'll just have to wait until the FCC announces the auction results and releases the new channel assignments. 

Larry


----------



## wildwillie6

Larry Kenney said:


> . . . we'll just have to wait until the FCC announces the auction results and releases the new channel assignments.
> 
> Larry


How's the timeline looking on that -- maybe 2018?


----------



## Calaveras

wildwillie6 said:


> How's the timeline looking on that -- maybe 2018?



There's an AVS forum to follow this:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...fficial-topic-fcc-broadcast-spectrum-100.html

The auction will end in 2017 and the repack is supposed to complete within 39 months of the auction end. 

There have been 3 stages to the auction so far and each has failed to meet the requirements to end the auction. Stage 4 begins next week and is the one most people expect will meet the requirements to end the auction. That will mean channels 38-51 will go away. If it still doesn't end then 2 channels will be removed from the auction for Stage 5 (40-51). If stage 4 doesn't end the auction then there will be serious questions as to whether the wireless industry still wants any spectrum at 600 MHz.

I don't know how long after the auction end that the repack plan will be announced.


----------



## mcnally

*Doesn't look like the same antenna*



kram1 said:


> Did a quick install the RCA ANT751R today instantly scanned in 81 channels nice
> After cleaning up the channels deleting blank dead foreign shopping and religious channels I'm left with 50 solid channels
> I didn't even attempt to install really high up on top of the roof just went as high as a could with the ladder I had available
> Wondering if there would be any real benefit going higher or grabbing the CM4228HD instead
> I'm not seeing any break up on the channels there coming in solid
> 
> I don't mind spending the extra $$ a pro higher install or on the CM4228HD just wondering what will it buy me in my area ??


kram1-

That antenna you've mounted on the fascia doesn't look like the RCA ANT751R I have, or the ones in the pics provided by rabbit73. I also saw the two different boxes at Walmart a few days ago, and was wondering what the differences were. 

I purchased my ANT751R several months ago, and it was the longer/skinnier box. It's made by Winegard as the EZ HD for Denny's Antenna Service, and also for RCA as the ANT751R. Winegard sells a slightly different version of the same antenna, called the HD7000R, with optional add-on dipole extensions for VHF-Low, and the mast mount is between the VHF dipoles, rather than at the end of the boom, as in the pics of the EZ HD and ANT751R. Winegard also recently removed one of the UHF reflector/VHF directors in the recently updated version, so now there's only one, rather than two, like in rabbit73's pics.

After seeing the shorter/fatter box several days ago, I noticed the label said ANT7511 ES, and the one right next to it--the longer/skinnier one, and the one like I purchased--still said ANT751R. Noticing that the pictures on the box were the exact same antenna, I just assumed Winegard (for RCA) separated the boom into two sections, with one end tapered to fit into the other end, to accommodate for vendor stocking requirements. 

However, after seeing your pic of the antenna on your fascia, it looks like a completely different antenna. It appears to have 3 quarter wave UHF directors followed by a half wave dipole for the UHF driven element, rather than the 2 quarter wave directors, followed by a half wave dipole director, followed by a tetrapole for the UHF driven element. It also appears your antenna has only one UHF reflector/VHF director, rather than two, and that your mast mounts between the VHF-Hi dipoles, rather than at the end of the boom. 

So, I don't know what your antenna actually is, as the pic is a bit hard to see, or who it is made by, but it doesn't look like the ones made by Winegard.

It is possible that it is made by Winegard with newly-modified specs from RCA, and it is possible that it is made by another company. For example, I had also purchased one of RCA's other antennas, and found out (after the purchase) that the pictures ON the box were not the same as the antenna IN the box. The outside showed a Channel Master-made antenna, but what was inside was a Winegard-made antenna.

So, while the pics on both of these boxes--the ANT751R & ANT7511 ES--might look the same, the sizes of the boxes may definitely be indicative of not only a restructure of the same antenna for shipping/stocking purposes, but actually a different antenna altogether.

If possible, I'd like to see a more detailed pic of your antenna.

-mcnally


----------



## kram1

Heres the link to the one I got 
https://www.walmart.com/ip/RCA-Suburban-Mini-Yagi-Digital-Outdoor-Antenna-with-Mast/10828410






mcnally said:


> kram1-
> 
> That antenna you've mounted on the fascia doesn't look like the RCA ANT751R I have, or the ones in the pics provided by rabbit73. I also saw the two different boxes at Walmart a few days ago, and was wondering what the differences were.
> 
> I purchased my ANT751R several months ago, and it was the longer/skinnier box. It's made by Winegard as the EZ HD for Denny's Antenna Service, and also for RCA as the ANT751R. Winegard sells a slightly different version of the same antenna, called the HD7000R, with optional add-on dipole extensions for VHF-Low, and the mast mount is between the VHF dipoles, rather than at the end of the boom, as in the pics of the EZ HD and ANT751R. Winegard also recently removed one of the UHF reflector/VHF directors in the recently updated version, so now there's only one, rather than two, like in rabbit73's pics.
> 
> After seeing the shorter/fatter box several days ago, I noticed the label said ANT7511 ES, and the one right next to it--the longer/skinnier one, and the one like I purchased--still said ANT751R. Noticing that the pictures on the box were the exact same antenna, I just assumed Winegard (for RCA) separated the boom into two sections, with one end tapered to fit into the other end, to accommodate for vendor stocking requirements.
> 
> However, after seeing your pic of the antenna on your fascia, it looks like a completely different antenna. It appears to have 3 quarter wave UHF directors followed by a half wave dipole for the UHF driven element, rather than the 2 quarter wave directors, followed by a half wave dipole director, followed by a tetrapole for the UHF driven element. It also appears your antenna has only one UHF reflector/VHF director, rather than two, and that your mast mounts between the VHF-Hi dipoles, rather than at the end of the boom.
> 
> So, I don't know what your antenna actually is, as the pic is a bit hard to see, or who it is made by, but it doesn't look like the ones made by Winegard.
> 
> It is possible that it is made by Winegard with newly-modified specs from RCA, and it is possible that it is made by another company. For example, I had also purchased one of RCA's other antennas, and found out (after the purchase) that the pictures ON the box were not the same as the antenna IN the box. The outside showed a Channel Master-made antenna, but what was inside was a Winegard-made antenna.
> 
> So, while the pics on both of these boxes--the ANT751R & ANT7511 ES--might look the same, the sizes of the boxes may definitely be indicative of not only a restructure of the same antenna for shipping/stocking purposes, but actually a different antenna altogether.
> 
> If possible, I'd like to see a more detailed pic of your antenna.
> 
> -mcnally


----------



## mcnally

kram1 said:


> Did a quick install the RCA ANT751R today instantly scanned in 81 channels nice
> After cleaning up the channels deleting blank dead foreign shopping and religious channels I'm left with 50 solid channels
> I didn't even attempt to install really high up on top of the roof just went as high as a could with the ladder I had available
> Wondering if there would be any real benefit going higher or grabbing the CM4228HD instead
> I'm not seeing any break up on the channels there coming in solid
> 
> I don't mind spending the extra $$ a pro higher install or on the CM4228HD just wondering what will it buy me in my area ??


kram1-

I tend to get a bit lengthy, and lose my point. 

The pic of the Walmart antenna from your link, AND the pics of the two antennas that rabbit73 attached (one from an RCA trade show display, the other from Lowe's), are all of the EXACT same antenna...

My point, is that the pic YOU provided, of the antenna mounted on your eave fascia, does NOT look like any of those antennas. Maybe that's because the pic was a low-light pic, and it's an optical illusion, maybe not. They seem pretty close in size, but it seems to be a different antenna, with some components removed and others added or replaced. 

Is it possible to shoot a higher resolution (or daylight) picture of the antenna you mounted on your eave fascia? I would appreciate it.

-mcnally


----------



## kram1

Hows that ?


----------



## holl_ands

It's definitely NOT ANT-751, with one fewer Hi-VHF Element, a different Active Element and an additional UHF Director.....but the construction "style" appears similar, so MIGHT be from same manufacturer [which is frequently NOT necessarily the Brand Name it is sold under].

FYI: RCA ANT-7511 depicted in Lowe's ad looks just like ANT-751R:
https://www.lowes.com/pd/RCA-Outdoor-Digital-HDTV-VHF-UHF-Yagi-Type-Antenna/1000108007?cm_mmc=SCE_ShoppingFeed-_-RoughPlumbingElectrical-_-HomeAutomationAndMultmedia-_-1000108007:RCA&CAWELAID=&kpid=1000108007&SID=1145446618837&CA_6C15C=320011480007446258

ANT-7511 ES is NOT found on RCA Website, but note that they have updated ANT-751R to "Z" part number, with NO visible changes: ANT-751Z:
http://www.rcaantennas.net/outdoor/?sku=ANT751Z


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## holl_ands

*SOME INEXPENSIVE, COMPACT Hi-VHF/UHF COMBO ANTENNAS FOR OUTDOOR USE*: [Incomplete List]
ALL Equal or Better than typical FLAT Antenna for UHF and significantly Better than Dipole for Hi-VHF.

*Listed in order of INCREASING number of UHF Elements....and DECREASING number of Hi-VHF Elements:*

*1) RCA-751R/Z/**EZHD: 8 ELEMENTS:* 2 Hi-VHF plus 1 UHF Dipole LPDA Section, 2 Hi-VHF Directors, 3 UHF Directors
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_ands/ces2009//P1040182 RCA ANT751_1.JPG

*2) RCA-7511 ES: 7 ELEMENTS*: 2 Hi-VHF plus 1 UHF Dipole LPDA Section, 1 Hi-VHF Director, 3 UHF Directors
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1855881&d=1482862715

*3) 1forOne 45-MILE: 7 ELEMENTS:* 1 Hi-VHF Reflector, 1 Hi-VHF plus 1 UHF Dipole LPDA Section, 4 UHF Directors
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_ands/ces2009//P1040182 RCA ANT751_1.JPG
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KYKYLZQ?ref=emc_b_5_t [Impossibly jumps to 60-mi with addition of ROTATOR....but NO AMP]

*4) C-M CM3010HD Stealtenna 50: 6 ELEMENTS:* 1 Hi-VHF plus 1 Hi-VHF Dipole Dual-Drive Section [NO Crossover], 4 UHF Directors
https://www.amazon.com/Channel-Mast...r=1-1&keywords=channel+master+stealthtenna+50
http://www.channelmaster.com/STEALTHtenna_Digital_HDTV_Outdoor_TV_Antenna_p/cm-3010hd.htm

*5 TIE) Stellar Labs 30-2485**: 9 ELEMENTS:* 1 Hi-VHF Reflector, 1 Hi-VHF plus 1 UHF Dipole LPDA Section, 6 UHF Directors
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/STELLAR-LABS-30-2485-/30-2485

*5 TIE) Mediasonic HOMEWORX: 9 ELEMENTS:* 1 Hi-VHF Reflector, 1 Hi-VHF plus 1 UHF Dipole LPDA Section, 6 UHF Directors
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01C1YL16Y/ref=psdc_172665_t1_B01M5GGEVO
https://www.amazon.com/ViewTV-VT-27...id=1482870357&sr=1-84&keywords=1byone+antenna [ViewTV Bundles an External Amplifier]


----------



## mcnally

kram1 said:


> Hows that ?


kram1-

Perfect. Thank you.

As holl_ands said, it's most definitely not the ANT751R, but it IS made by Winegard (who makes the ANT751R).

As I stated earlier, Winegard makes and markets the HD7000R, which is very similar to the antenna Denny's Antenna Service has made for them by Winegard, called the EZ HD. According to Denny's Antenna Service, they developed the specs for the EZ HD, and allowed RCA to re-brand the EZ HD and sell it as the ANT751R. 

I'm assuming RCA was either no longer allowed to sell the Denny's EZ HD as the ANT751R, or they themselves decided to develop their own antenna. Regardless, it is a newly designed antenna, and while the pictures RCA has on their ANT7511 ES box are still showing the ANT751R/EZ HD, it is a different antenna, and I'm completely confident it's made by Winegard for RCA. 

Now, we just need someone to model it and compare it to the ANT751R/EZ HD...

-mcnally


----------



## holl_ands

IF you provide detailed Measurements and multiple PHOTOS (incl. a RULER in the Photo), then I can TRY to model ANT-7511 ES (or most any other Antenna of interest). But I haven't published 4nec2 Results for ANT-751 because Log-Yagi's (ditto YA-1713) do NOT model very well on the upper frequencies wrt Gain and SWR for ANT-751 was "off"....I suspect I need pricey NEC4 Engine to model the Cross-Over Feedlines and hopefully eliminate these shortcomings.

UHF portion of ANT-751 and ANT-7611 ES are SLIGHTLY different...but not by much and SAME number of UHF Elements....*so, probably about the same UHF Gain*....as given in Spec Sheet for HD-7000, from which the UHF part of ANT-751 was derived:
http://manuals.solidsignal.com/HD7000R.pdf

My simplified 4nec2 model for the ANT-751R/EZHD calculated 6.3 dBi (Minimum at band edges) to 7.5 dBi (Max Mid-Band) Hi-VHF Gain. When I removed the most forward Hi-VHF Director to emulate the ANT-7511 (although without SAME Element Spacings) it is reduced to 5.6 dBi (Minimum at band edges) to 7.0 dBi (Max Mid-Band). *So only 0.5 to 0.7 dB reduction in Hi-VHF Gain.

*FYI: Slightly higher Hi-VHF Gain numbers (esp. on upper Channels) were found when I OPTIMIZED 3 and 4-Element Hi-VHF Yagi's [which tend to provide more Gain than Log-Yagi's, esp. on higher frequencies], using Folded-Dipole Active Elements designed for Hi-VHF Band....rather than going THROUGH the UHF Folded Dipole Active Element, as done in the ANT-751 Log-Yagi [UHF Dipole and TWO Hi-VHF Active Elements form a 3-Element LPDA structure]...which is clearly causing some minor degradation, esp. on Ch12/13:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/hivhf3elfdyagiopt
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/hivhf4elfdyagiopt


----------



## mcnally

*UHF measurements*



holl_ands said:


> IF you provide detailed Measurements and multiple PHOTOS (incl. a RULER in the Photo), then I can TRY to model ANT-7511 ES (or most any other Antenna of interest).


This is not of an ANT-7511, but of an RCA ANT-3036WR I had already purchased, made for them by Winegard. It has the same simple stick dipole, and the same wire used as a shorting stub-type configuration. I'm assuming the VHF portion is unchanged from the ANT-751R, with the exception of the missing VHF director, and the manner with which the VHF dipole is connected to the UHF portion:


----------



## mcnally

Here are the UHF dimensions:

The UHF dipole, end-to-end, is 14-3/16"; 
Each leg of the UHF dipole is 6-1/2";
UHF dipole is 1" wide;
Distance from UHF dipole to closest UHF director (director A) is 1-3/8", center-to-center;
Distance from director A to next director (director B) is 3", center-to-center;
Distance from director B to next director (director C) is 4-15/16", center-to-center;
Each director is 1" wide, 6-1/8" long; 
Dipole to shorting stub plastic bracket is 4-1/16", center-to-center;
Shorting stub plastic bracket to end of shorting stub wire is 4-3/16"

(The UHF directors on this antenna appear to be spaced differently than that of the ANT-7511 pic that kram1 provided)

The manner with which this antenna uses a UHF stick dipole, and a wire shorting stub with plastic dipole-less mounting bracket looks identical to the ANT-7511. Disregard all the extra holes on my antenna, and the screws and nuts in place of factory rivets, as I have been experimenting for quite some time with different configurations (as you can see, I've removed the corner reflectors for these photos). All components are in their original places from the factory. If there's any clarification of dimensions, let me know, and I hope this helps.


----------



## Tag66

Hello, I'm looking for some assistance from the experts as this is my first venture into OTA land.
Here is my tvfool report:
*http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e6a4d63464781e

*I picked up a ClearStream 4v antenna and mounted it up in my attic (I have a very steep roof!). The antenna is up at the highest point in the highest peak of my attic and facing straight out the front (plywood, vinyl siding) at about 32-33 degrees in order to pick up the NY stations just under 50 miles away. My goal is to pick up just 4 basic networks ABC, CBS, NBC, and FOX. With my setup I was able to pick up strong signals for WCBS 33 and WNBC 28 (and about 20 other channels) but no trace of WNYW 44 or WABC 7. 
I then added a Winegard LNA-200 and my signals for 33 and 28 were even better and I picked up an extra 30+ channels of varying strength but still no trace of WNYW or WABC.
As an experiment I ventured onto my roof (freaking out my wife) and held the antenna at the highest point I possibly could (probably around 4 feet under where it was in the attic), pointed it in the same direction at 32-33 degrees and had my wife run a scan inside. Still could not pick up the WNYW or WABC signals.
At this point Im thinking I need to try a better antenna with stronger VHF high and UHF gains, but not sure which one to go with. I want to stick with my attic mount as I think it would be sufficient and didn't see much advantage over outside. That and I don't want to die trying to mount it. Any suggestions?


----------



## DrDon

Tag66 said:


> Hello, I'm looking for some assistance from the experts as this is my first venture into OTA land.
> Here is my tvfool report:
> *http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e6a4d63464781e
> 
> *I picked up a ClearStream 4v antenna and mounted it up in my attic (I have a very steep roof!). The antenna is up at the highest point in the highest peak of my attic and facing straight out the front (plywood, vinyl siding) at about 32-33 degrees in order to pick up the NY stations just under 50 miles away. My goal is to pick up just 4 basic networks ABC, CBS, NBC, and FOX. With my setup I was able to pick up strong signals for WCBS 33 and WNBC 28 (and about 20 other channels) but no trace of WNYW 44 or WABC 7.
> I then added a Winegard LNA-200 and my signals for 33 and 28 were even better and I picked up an extra 30+ channels of varying strength but still no trace of WNYW or WABC.
> As an experiment I ventured onto my roof (freaking out my wife) and held the antenna at the highest point I possibly could (probably around 4 feet under where it was in the attic), pointed it in the same direction at 32-33 degrees and had my wife run a scan inside. Still could not pick up the WNYW or WABC signals.
> At this point Im thinking I need to try a better antenna with stronger VHF high and UHF gains, but not sure which one to go with. I want to stick with my attic mount as I think it would be sufficient and didn't see much advantage over outside. That and I don't want to die trying to mount it. Any suggestions?


It's best to keep all the responses in one place, so I'm going to link to your other thread for anyone who wishes to pitch in:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...ntenna-assistance-requested.html#post50334265


----------



## rabbit73

Let's stick with the other thread; it already has some answers.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...ntenna-assistance-requested.html#post50334265


----------



## Vargil

Quick bit of help since I'm new to this.

I put up a Clearstream 2V in my attic (30 miles away from the broadcasts) and it is picking up everything great except my pixelated ABC affiliate. There is a 40 ft run of cable from my attic to basement, where I hooked it all into what my cable was using to distribute through the house which is a Commscope CSAPDU5VPI amplifier. 

I know this is used for broadband typically however. Would adding an additional amplifier help get that last station over the top? If so, do I put it by the antenna or before it goes into the other amplifier? Or is it better to remove it from that distribution amp and go with a different one that allows for splitting the signal?


----------



## ctdish

You should probably go and read all of the stickies at the top of this page. Especially this one: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...all-antenna-threads-tvfool-info-1st-post.html
In order to answer your question we need to know where you are and the quality of signals at your location. Which is why we ned a link to your TVFool report. 
Also when referring to stations it really helps to provide the station's call letters because most of are not from your area.
John


----------



## Vargil

ctdish said:


> You should probably go and read all of the stickies at the top of this page. Especially this one: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...all-antenna-threads-tvfool-info-1st-post.html
> In order to answer your question we need to know where you are and the quality of signals at your location. Which is why we ned a link to your TVFool report.
> Also when referring to stations it really helps to provide the station's call letters because most of are not from your area.
> John


My apologies! I'm in Grayson, GA and here is a link to the report. I'm referring to WSB

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e6a435bad08240


----------



## ctdish

WSB is unusual in that it transmits on three different channels. Your strongest one is on physical channel 31 but it is in the opposite direction of most of your other networks. What TV model or models are you using? Can you figure which of the WSB transmitters are you receiving?
John


----------



## Vargil

ctdish said:


> WSB is unusual in that it transmits on three different channels. Your strongest one is on physical channel 31 but it is in the opposite direction of most of your other networks. What TV model or models are you using? Can you figure which of the WSB transmitters are you receiving?
> John


I'm splitting the signal between 4 different TVs. Two Toshiba, an LG, and a Sharp Aquous. I don't remember the models however. 

My antenna is facing west and it tuned to WSB via channel 2.1. I don't know if it picked up the other because I was expecting it on the channel I was looking at.


----------



## ctdish

The three physical channels that WSB uses are 31,46, and 39. Remapping being what it is all three may show as 2.1 on your TVs. On many TVs if you type in the physical channel of a mapped channel it will show the digital channel on that channel. Try typing each of the three physical channel numbers on the TVs and see if WSB appears on one or more of them.
John


----------



## ctdish

To get back to your original question amplifiers work best if the cable connecting them to the antenna is as short as possible. The specified noise figure on your amp is 10 dB which is pretty high. A better approach to try would be a 20 dB gain preamp at the antenna with a passive splitter for signal distribution. 
John


----------



## Vargil

ctdish said:


> The three physical channels that WSB uses are 31,46, and 39. Remapping being what it is all three may show as 2.1 on your TVs. On many TVs if you type in the physical channel of a mapped channel it will show the digital channel on that channel. Try typing each of the three physical channel numbers on the TVs and see if WSB appears on one or more of them.
> John


Ok, I'll try and see. If that doesn't work, do you have a different solution that I can try? WSB is crucial to the boss lady approving the cord cutting.


----------



## ctdish

You could try moving the antenna and see if you can find a better spot.
Or get a second 2 or 4 bay antenna aimed at physical channel 31 (east) and combine it with a channel inserter.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Selective-c...917525?hash=item1c755a02d5:g:FNMAAOSwA3dYLDCr
John


----------



## rabbit73

ctdish is correct, you have 3 WSB transmitters:

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=wsb

real (physical) channel 31, NM 38.3 dB, 85 deg true
real channel 46, NM 28.5 dB, 20 deg
real channel 39, NM 28.4 dB, 246 deg

If your antenna is aimed WSW for most of your wanted channels, it should pick up 39, but it is one of your weaker signals. I agree with ctdish, a preamp at the antenna might help because the signal loss in the attic is difficult to predict.

I agree that trying a different location on the attic might help.

Have you tried aiming your antenna at 90 deg magnetic for 31? 

WSB on real channel 31 has co-channel interference from ION on the same channel. WSB needs to be at least 16 dB stronger than ION for reception, which it is if your report is accurate.

I would try the preamp for ABC on 39 first.

Your Toshiba should have a signal meter that gives the real (physical) channel.


----------



## holl_ands

ctdish said:


> To get back to your original question amplifiers work best if the cable connecting them to the antenna is as short as possible. The specified noise figure on your amp is 10 dB which is pretty high. A better approach to try would be a 20 dB gain preamp at the antenna with a passive splitter for signal distribution.
> John


Commscope Drop Amp Spec says "Gain, Video Port" is 0.0 dB, so Amp Gain presumably equals 4-Way RF Splitter Loss (typ. 7.5 dB). I think that they simply added the RF Splitter Loss to a typical Amp NF of 2.5 db and ERRONEOUSLY came up with a Spec Value of "Noise Figure, Maximum = 10 dB"....a LOT higher than any other Cable Distro Amp on the market [there are actually minimum performance specs for Cable System Components]. 

A meaningful specification would have stipulated the Amplifier Gain (presumably 7.5 dB), the Amplifier Noise Figure (presumably NF=2.5 dB) and 4-Way RF Splitter Loss (typ. 7.5 dB). The GAIN in the Amplifier would REDUCE the Effect of the RF Splitter Loss...as well as Coax Loss to Tuner...and Tuner NF by the amount of (Scalar) Gain in the Amplifier....so the TOTAL SYSTEM NF would be in the BallPark of 3-5 dB, depending on actual Cable Losses:
http://www.commscope.com/catalog/broadband/product_details.aspx?id=2817

So I doubt that upgrading Comspec Drop Amp would make much difference......

=============================================================
A-D C2 is a fairly LOW GAIN UHF Antenna, with UHF Gain of only 9.7-10.1 dBi [about a dB below Bottom of following Chart]:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/pdf/C2-sellsheet.pdf

Upgrading to any of several 4-Bay Antennas (incl. inexpensive Solid Signal HDB-4X) should increase UHF Gain by about 2 to 4 dB, increasing with Frequency:


----------



## andy416us

Will the future UHF portion of TV antennas decrease in size much since it looks like they will only have to tune in channels 14-36? Sucks they are going back to VHF-low. I know that's the biggest portion size for antennas.... Thanks


----------



## rabbit73

If the UHF elements are optimized for 14-36, they will be longer; lower frequencies require longer elements.

I suspect that the manufacturers will not change the design of their UHF antennas unless they have to; redesign costs money.

The only manufacturer that I know of that redesigned their UHF antennas when UHF was cut to CH51, is Antennas Direct with their DB2e, DB4e, and DB8e. They left the 91XG alone, so its gain peak is too high in frequency, giving less gain at the low end of UHF.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

> The only manufacturer that I know of that redesigned their UHF antennas when UHF was cut to CH51, is Antennas Direct with their DB2e, DB4e, and DB8e. They left the 91XG alone, so its gain peak is too high in frequency, giving less gain at the low end of UHF.


Also, their ClearStream UHF antennas were designed from the ground up for UHF 14-51. 

Channel Master finally changed their marketing to say that their antennas covered up to UHF 51 (instead of 69) but I've never seen any concrete evidence that the antennas themselves were changed. 

Whether or not to redesign is probably irrelevant for a couple of years since it will be more than three years before channels 38-51 are completely cleared by broadcasters in the US.

What will be interesting is to see if enough stations took the bait to move to low-VHF to make it worthwhile for companies like Antennas Direct and others to do any re-engineering to improve support for the lower frequencies. So far, it's less than a handful of stations that are known to have committed to jumping into that particular gator- and mosquito-infested swamp.


----------



## holl_ands

Redesigning from 806 MHz [Ch69] Max to 608 MHz Max [Ch36] will increase size [approximately] by the Factor = 806/608 = 1.33, which means it would be about 33% BIGGER in ALL Dimensions. Hence a UHF Yagi, such as the 93-in long 91XG, would presumably grow to be a MONSTER that is as much as 124-in long. HOWEVER, there are ways to SHRINK the Length without losing Gain, such as additional Directors, Larger Reflector and removing the CONSTRAINTS in the 91XG design, such as ALL Directors being the SAME SIZE [to simplify production and assembly].

For those few commercial (and MANY DIY Antennas) redesigning from 698 MHz [Ch52] Max to 608 MHz Max [Ch36] will increase size [approximately] by the Factor = 698/608 = 1.15, which is only 15% BIGGER.


----------



## andy416us

rabbit73 said:


> The only manufacturer that I know of that redesigned their UHF antennas when UHF was cut to CH51, is Antennas Direct with their DB2e, DB4e, and DB8e. They left the 91XG alone, so its gain peak is too high in frequency, giving less gain at the low end of UHF.





ProjectSHO89 said:


> Also, their ClearStream UHF antennas were designed from the ground up for UHF 14-51.


Thank you for the replies. According to Futrader8, RCA ANT751 was also modified after the transition.


----------



## holl_ands

RCA ANT-751 UHF Section was taken directly from W-G HD-7000, which was designed for Ch2-69 (incl. OLD UHF Band):
http://www.winegarddirect.com/pdf/HD7000R.pdf

Per Solid Signal, the Imported Televes Antennas [incl. the LTE Filter] that they carry were re-designed for NEW UHF Band (up thru Ch51).
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=144180
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=149481
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=149881


----------



## Snoogleheimer

Got a Antennas Direct - ClearStream Eclipse Amplified Indoor HDTV Antenna and an Insignia™ Digital to Analog Converter Box with HDMI-output and am very surprised how well it works. I'm pulling in 65 channels.


----------



## wildwillie6

*Just checking*

This thing they're advertising to my inbox is nothing more than a simple combiner/splitter, right? (With all the interference problems that would come with that?)










http://www.channelmaster.com/JOINtenna_p/cm-0500.htm


----------



## SFischer1

wildwillie6 said:


> This thing they're advertising to my inbox is nothing more than a simple combiner/splitter, right? (With all the interference problems that would come with that?)
> 
> http://www.channelmaster.com/JOINtenna_p/cm-0500.htm


From the instructions: 

[/QUOTE]
If you think you are missing *channels, try adjusting the direction of the Antennas and perform the scan again.*
[/QUOTE]

Another damming down of a good name from the past, with no power it cannot be nothing but.
At a much higher price to boot. 

SHF


----------



## rabbit73

That's what it looks like, but they have added an LTE filter.


----------



## rabbit73

There is even more fine print to cover them if it doesn't work:


> NOTE: If you are not getting the desired results, please consult a local antenna installation expert. Joining 2 antennas can sometimes be tricky. Channel Master is unable to provide remote assistance for combining two antennas as there are numerous local/on site variables that have to be considered when planning and fine tuning this configuration.


----------



## kram1

*Antenna Deal*

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00RCOEL0C/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A26IMHULYH7PHY&tag=tbdirect-20&ascsubtag=82444076-3fbe-4dab-b086-50451f15cdf6


----------



## Banana boat

Hi im new on here, i have a question can i purchase a Holl_ands Horizontal Harness or a new cm 4228 with the Holl_ands Horizontal Harness already installed from holl_ands? I dont think i have the knowledge to correctly build and install this harness but i want the best reception possabile from my antenna? I wanted to pm him but i dont have enough post yet


----------



## rabbit73

Hello, Banana boat

Welcome to the forum.

He primarily does computer modeling of antennas, but there is no harm in asking holl_ands.

Maybe if we chat a little, you will have enough posts to PM and give active links.

Where are you located?.


----------



## rabbit73

I call your attention to the sticky that says:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...all-antenna-threads-tvfool-info-1st-post.html

You can do a tvfool signal report here:
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

Just give us the short form of the link like this:
?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d8e03ca9127e735

don't let it bother you if there is a space between the last two digits

and we can turn it into an active link like this, which is for Norfolk:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=8e03ca9127e735


----------



## holl_ands

*Hi-VHF+UHF CM4228HD HHH - ALTERNATIVES*
*aka "THE GOLDEN GRAIL OF 8-BAY BOWTIE ANTENNAS"*

Hi-VHF & UHF Combo CM4228HD with Holl_ands Horizontal Harness (HHH) Mod and various other Modifications Re-Optimized to improve SWR in Hi-VHF Band, using nikiml's Python Optimization Scripts and EVAL Function to Calculate "Best" Performance:
Hi-VHF+UHF CM4228HD HHH - ALTERNATIVES

There are significant Hi-VHF improvements over AS-SHIPPED CM4228HD version plus HHH [Jun2014 UHF-ONLY Version]:
UHF Raw Gain = 15.0 to 14.9 to 16.5 dBi, F/B & F/R Ratio Min = 19.1 dB and SWR (300-ohms) Under 2.3.
Hi-VHF Raw Gain = 4.3 to 12.9 dBi and SWR (300-ohms) = 14.2 to 9.8 to 61.9 is Excessive.
For details: http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl/newcm4228hdwithhollandshorizharness

======================================
Four Alternatives were considered. Overall, (d) was BEST with (c) NEXT BEST, with significant reduction in Hi-VHF F/B Ratio. Version (b) was also Very Good, except for DEEP DIP in Hi-VHF F/R Ratio on Ch10/11:
[Detailed Dimensional Drawings for HHH Versions are at bottom of this Webpage.]

a) Re-Optimize HHH Dimensions as well as Tine Separation (TS), because it's easy for user to change:

UNSTABLE and VERY BAD ANYWAY....so will NOT Post.

======================================
b) Re-Optimize HHH Dimensions as well as Tine Separation (TS) and Reflector-to-Bowtie Separation (RS):

Good Overall Performance, except for Deep DIP in Hi-VHF F/R Ratio Performance:
UHF Raw Gain = 15.2 dBi +/- 0.2 dB, F/B & F/R Ratio Minimum = 18.6 dB and SWR (300-ohms) Under 2.1.
Hi-VHF Raw Gain = 8 dBi +/- 1 dB, *F/B & F/R Ratio Minimum = 5.6 dB [Poor]* and SWR (300-ohms) Under 1.6.
Hi-VHF F/B & F/R Ratios = 13.6 to 20 dB EXCEPT on Ch10/11 they dive to only 5.6 dB.

======================================
c) Re-Optimize HHH Dimensions as well as Tine Separation (TS), Reflector-to-Bowtie Separation (RS) and Wider Reflector Rod Width (+/- Yrod):

UHF Raw Gain Slightly Better than other Versions and Hi-VHF Raw Gain is Second Best:
UHF Raw Gain = 15.5 dBi +/- 0.8 dB, F/B & F/R Ratio Minimum = 17.5 dB and SWR (300-ohms) Under 2.1.
Hi-VHF Raw Gain = 8.5 dBi +/- 0.5 dB, *F/B & F/R Ratio Minimum = 11.7 dB [Moderate]* and SWR (300-ohms) Under 1.3.

======================================
d) Re-Optimize HHH Dimensions as well as Tine Separation (TS), Reflector-to-Bowtie Separation (RS) and Overall Reflector Rod Length (+/- Yrod) for ALTERNATING Reflector Rods:

UHF Raw Gain Slightly Better than other Versions and Hi-VHF Raw Gain and F/R Ratio are BEST:
UHF Raw Gain = 15.4 dBi +/- 0.6 dB, F/B & F/R Ratio Minimum = 17.0 dB and SWR (300-ohms) Under 2.7.
Hi-VHF Raw Gain = 8.6 dBi +/- 0.3 dB, *F/B & F/R Ratio Minimum = 17.5 dB [Very Good]* and SWR (300-ohms) Under 1.7.


----------



## rmorman

Hello all!
This is an INCREDIBLE thread! More information here than I can contemplate. 
I looked through many pages here and hopefully can now ask good questions.

Was going to post my tvfool link, but beings I only have 2 posts, I cannot. I will have to add 3 more posts here and then I can add the link.
41.928619,-94.11158 antenna height: 30 ft (above ground level)

I currently own a ULTRAtenna 60 & a CM-7777HD Amp.  Roof mounted. This was an upgrade from an OLD/slightly damaged directional Antenna.  To be honest, the ULTRAtenna 60 & CM-7777HD Amp don't work as well as the old directional Antenna they replaced.  I am now trying to figure out what to try.  I would like your input.

I live in a rural area. The ULTRAtenna 60 is mounted roughly 30 feet above the ground with a clear line of sight to the East and southeast (where most of the towers are at).  

Should I upgrade to a Channel Master EXTREMEtenna 80, an Advantage 100 or maybe a Digital Advantage 100? After reading on this thread, I also see some recommendations for the Winegard HD7698P, 91XG Unidirectional, Televes DAT790 & some RCA units. I contacted Channel Master, and they are now recommending the directional unit. In my area, I don't have any regulations as to what I can put up as I don't really have any neighbors!  Currently leaning towards the EXTREMEtenna 80, or an Advantage 100.

I am not concerned about the channels to my Northwest. just the ones to my East & Southeast.

On a side note, in the last week I've dropped from 20 to 6 channels without making any changes. Not sure if the Spring wind or something else is causing the issue. I have not tried any troubleshooting yet as I would like to learn from folks who have "been there, done that."

Is there some other things I should be trying???

Thanks in advance for your prompt responce,
Russ Morman


----------



## SFischer1

rmorman said:


> Hello all!
> This is an INCREDIBLE thread! More information here than I can contemplate.
> I looked through many pages here and hopefully can now ask good questions.
> 
> Was going to post my tvfool link, but beings I only have 2 posts, I cannot. I will have to add 3 more posts here and then I can add the link.
> 41.928619,-94.11158 antenna height: 30 ft (above ground level)
> ...


Here is my TVFool:

*http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e6a44989f75b87 *

We are smart enough to just need* "?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de6a44989f75b87" *and we can add the rest to look at your actual report.

Your pasted TVFool image gives your zipcode so that may be sufficient for the experts to find your data, the TVFool Google Map has no link, but just myself may be using it. Just entering you zip should get close to your data.

Welcome, you may be directed your local link.


http://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-lo...on/136822-des-moines-ia-hdtv.html#post1039244 

SHF


----------



## rmorman

SFischer1 said:


> We are smart enough to just need* "?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de6a44989f75b87" *and we can add the rest to look at your actual report.
> SHF


I should have thought of that! :grin: 

Try this then: ?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de6a4c3b9519eae 

Thanks!
Russ


----------



## rabbit73

Hello, rmorman

Welcome to the forum. Thank you for the *Perry, IA* report image, your coordinates, and the short link. The short link, ending in 9eae, gives this report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e6a4c3b9519eae

Your original image was done at 30 feet, and your short link was done at 10 feet, so I redid your report at 30 feet using the coordinates:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e6a42a129acd72


----------



## rmorman

rabbit73 said:


> Hello, rmorman
> Your original image was done at 30 feet, and your short link was done at 10 feet, so I redid your report at 30 feet using the coordinates:


Thank you for catching that. Rookie mistake. 

Russ


----------



## rabbit73

> To be honest, the ULTRAtenna 60 & CM-7777HD Amp don't work as well as the old directional Antenna they replaced.


Can you tell us more about the old antenna? Were you using a preamp with the old antenna?


> I am now trying to figure out what to try.


We are trying to figure out what went wrong; you should be doing better.

What channels did you get before, and what channels are you getting now? Which ones are missing?

What channels do you want, by callsign and real channel number, just the ones in green?


----------



## rabbit73

There have been some problems with the CM7777HD amp. Which gain setting are you using?


----------



## ctdish

The green channels should be pretty easy to get with an appropriate antenna. The Ultra antenna is a UHF antenna and three of the green channels are high VHF and one (ABC) is low VHF so it is not the best choice. The HD7698P covers high VHF and UHF so it is the best choice of the ones that the op mentions. A smaller one like the HD7694P would likely work as well with his strong signals. There are not too many low VHF antennas available now so I would try one of the high VHF/UHF combos first but if ABC did not work with it an HD8200 might be necessary. I would also recommend not using a preamp. 
John


----------



## rabbit73

John is correct. The ULTRAtenna60, AKA 4221HD, is not suitable for
WHO NBC, real channel 13, a VHF-High channel
KCCI CBS, real channel 8, VHF-High
KDIN PBS, real channel 11, VHF-High
WOI ABC, real channel 5, a VHF-Low channel

It is the real channel number that determines what antenna is needed.

VHF-Low, real channels 2-6
VHF-High, real channels 7-13
UHF, real channels 14-51

 The virtual channel number (like 5.1) is a holdover from the analog TV days to maintain the identity of the station, and is what the TV displays.


----------



## rabbit73

> Should I upgrade to a Channel Master EXTREMEtenna 80, an Advantage 100 or maybe a Digital Advantage 100?


The EXTREMEtenna 80 is not suitable because it is also primarily a UHF antenna.

The Advantage 100 does cover all three TV bands, so it would include WOI ABC, real channel 5, but it might be bigger than necessary.

The Digital Advantage 100 is for VHF-High and UHF, so it does not include VHF-Low for WOI ABC, real channel 5.


http://www.channelmaster.com/Outdoor_Antennas_s/20.htm


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Return the antenna (wrong one) and the amp (inappropriate and unneeded).

If you're hung up on CM antennas and don't care if you have to wait for delivery, order either the CM-3016 (aka the Advantage 45) or the CM-5016 (aka Masterpiece 45). Either is appropriate.

If you want something TODAY that is manufactured in Iowa, run down to your local Menards. They usually stock the RCA ANT3036XR. It's way bigger than you should need, but it would work fine and offers immediate availability.

There are others options for mail order including the Winegard HD7000R (also made in Iowa). Ask before you get your credit card out.

The bottom line is that your location north of Des Moines is best served with a small all-channel antenna aimed at the tower farm between Ankeny and Huxley. Avoid placing it behind a tree or a noisy electrical light/pole, reception should be easy.


----------



## holl_ands

1) Specs for CM7777HD indicate that it has "Max Input" of 18 dBmV (High 30 dB Gain) and 10 dBmV (Low 17 dB Gain)....which are -30.8 dBm and -38.8 dBm respectively [but these are AMBIGIOUS without ALSO knowing the "Cross-Modulation" Level that results]. With C-M Ultratenna 60 (aka CM4221HD) Gain of about 12 dBi [on lowest UHF Channels], your Strongest UHF Ch19 [-30.8 dBm per TVFool with NO Preamp and 0 dB Antenna Gain] would appear as about -2 dBm on the Input of the Preamp...which is 12 dB OVER the "Max Input" Spec Value. Clearly you are OVERLOADING the Preamp, which generates Intermodulation Noise that DESENSITIZES reception of Weak Channels due to the Severe Reduction in Dynamic Signal Range [PS: Add 15 dB for requisite SFDR = Spurious Free Dynamic Range]:
https://www.channelmaster.com/Amplify_TV_Antenna_Preamplifier_p/cm-7777hd.htm

2) To Receive Distant PBS (Ch25) and ABC (Ch50), you need a Dynamic Signal Range of AT LEAST 53-56 dB...or MORE when we note that the weaker signals will be FADING, whereas the LOS signals will NOT. This would require a Preamp with a SFDR of MORE THAN 71 dB [Per Calaveras measurements, A-D Juice is 81.7 dB SFDR and CM341x is 81.9 dB SFDR]....and very wide Beamwidth of CM4221HD provides minimal reduction of LOS Signal Strength when pointed towards Weaker Stations. C-M specs are INCOMPLETE as to what "Cross-Modulation" Spec [related to Dynamic Range] it assumed for cited Max Input Spec Value [they used to use 46 dB Cross-Modulation, whereas 60 dB is more common today]. From looking at Calaveras's List of TESTED Preamps, the CM7777HD Input Spec Value PROBABLY is for 46 dB....and hence would require 30 dB LOWER Input Signals to provide 56 dB Cross-Modulation [3 dB Reduction in Intermods for every 1 dB Reduction in Input Signal]:
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_a...Performance_Summary - Calaveras 28Nov2015.jpg [Note: Max Signal Input corresponds to Max SFDR column]

*So I don't think the new CM7777HD is suited for your VERY HIGH SIGNAL LEVEL environment.*
*You should TRY again after REMOVING the Preamp. *

And WHY do you think you even NEED a Preamp....and how many Drops??? It it turns out that you DO need a Preamp, you should consider using inexpensive CM341x Series Distribution Amplifier instead of pricey A-D Juice Preamp, where the small amount of Downlead Cable Loss actually IMPROVES the Signal Dynamic Range...and you MIGHT need to try inserting a SMALL Attenuator on the DistroAmp's Input for further Improvement (e.g. try 4 dB Loss thru a spare RF Splitter, reduces IMD by 3x4=12 db, a Net SNR Improvement of 8 dB).

3) C-M Ultratenna 60 is better known as the CM4221HD 4-Bay Bowtie....note that it uses a PCB (Printed Circuit Board) Balun, which ATTENUATES VHF Band...with EXCESSIVE SWR. I doubt that you would have problems receiving VERY Strong Ch12, but if you DO, you could Replace PCB Balun with a Conventional, Cylindrical 300:75-ohm Transformer Balun, allowing the admittedly mediocre VHF Performance to be restored. BTW: Balun Replacement would ALSO allow Ch5 Raw Gain to be passed thru: about 0 dBi, but with VERY EXCESSIVE SWR....that MAY or May NOT be a problem for you:
https://www.channelmaster.com/Digital_HDTV_Outdoor_TV_Antenna_p/cm-4221hd.htm

If you don't WANT to Drill Out Rivets to Replace the PCB, then you COULD simply add the A-D VHF Antenna Kit [which includes VHF/UHF Combiner]. It provides about 2.5 dBi across Hi-VHF Band with low SWR....and about 0 dBi for Ch5 with EXCESSIVE SWR:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/VHF-Antenna-Kit.html [Email ADTECH re Correct Version for CM4221HD.]

Note that CM4221HD "As-Shipped" has a design defect wherein the PCB Balun is mounted TOO CLOSE to the Vertical Feedlines. This assembly can be readily "Flipped Over", providing adequate Separation....also note Hi-VHF Performance possible when PCB Balun is REPLACED:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl/uhfnewcm4221hd

=============================================
*Adding A-D VHF Antenna Kit should be more than sufficient to pick up Very Strong Ch8/11/13...and PROBABLY also Strong Ch5. 
*
If problems receiving Ch5, you would need a significantly HIGHER Gain Antenna actually DESIGNED for Lo-VHF, such as one of the old, huge VHF/UHF Combo Antennas.....although W-G HD8200 would be Overkill.....consider [in increasing Gain Order]:

a) W-G HD-7000 Hi-VHF/UHF COMBO (Ch2-69) combined with existing CM4221HD using a VHF/UHF Combiner (e.g. A-D or R-S or UVSJ/SUVSJ). [Low-Gain UHF section is BLOCKED by the VHF/UHF Combiner.]
https://www.amazon.com/Winegard-Company-Compact-Antenna-HD7000R/dp/B001TIQ6SW
[RCA ANT-751 was DERIVED from this Antenna, except SHORTER Elements to delete Lo-VHF coverage.]

b) CM5016 (Ch2-69) for VHF combined with CM4221HD for UHF [Gain Specs are AMBIGUOUS, but most PROBABLY in dBd, so ADD 2.2 for dBi]:
http://www.channelmaster.com/Masterpiece_Digital_HDTV_Antenna_p/cm-5016.htm

c) VOXX RCA ANT3036XR COMBO (Ch2-69, but NO Gain Specs) for VHF combined with CM4221HD for UHF [NOTE: Significantly DIFFERENT from RCA ANT3036XR cited below (VOXX???? Could be a mixed up part number listing????)]:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=ant3036wr

d) CM3016 VHF/UHF COMBO (Ch2-69) for VHF combined with CM4221HD for UHF [Although Higher VHF Gain will probably NOT be needed]:
https://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master-3016-HDTV-Antenna/dp/B000SAKDLS
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=cm-3016

I agree that Fol. RCA ANT3036XR COMBO would be Overkill for VHF....and number of Elements appears SAME as CM3018, so UHF Gain would also be MUCH LESS than CM4221HD [Note that RCA doesn't BOTHER to provide ANY Specs].....will the REAL ANT3036XR please step forward????:
http://www.rcaantennas.net/outdoor/?sku=ANT3036XR

*I would recommend KEEPING the CM4221HD to cover the UHF Band [12-14.8 dBi Gain, increasing with Frequency]*, since it has MUCH HIGHER UHF Gain than CM30xx Series, which will be needed to receive those Stations in TVFool RED Zone. Use VHF/UHF Combiner, which will BLOCK UHF from CM30xx. Gain in fol. Chart is re to a Dipole (dBd)....so ADD 2.2 dB to derive dBi values (relative to an Isotropic Radiator, more commonly used now).









==========================================================
You asked about fol. specific C-M Antennas:

1) EXTREMEtenna 80 (aka CM4228HD): About 3 dB higher Gain than CM4221HD. Although PCB Balun BLOCKS VHF Band, I developed some Alternative Modifications to REPLACE the PCB Balun along with the Original Horizontal Harness Wires. My First HHH (Holl_ands Horizontal Harness) Version was Optimized for JUST-UHF-BAND....plus three NEW Alternative Versions Optimized for BOTH UHF and Hi-VHF Band....which would ALSO have SOME Usable Gain on Ch5 that MAY or MAY NOT be sufficient:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl/newcm4228hdwithhollandshorizharness
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl/cm4228hdhhhtsrsyrod

2) Advantage 100 (aka CM2020): Discussed above, probably Overkill for VHF and MUCH LOWER UHF Gain than CM4221HD. [NOTE: Ambiguous Gain Specs only say "dB"....same CM2020 Specs above indicate they are in dBd.]

3) Digital Advantage 100: VHF Gain=7.5 "dB" (so dbi = 9.7 dBi) and UHF Gain = 10 "dB" (so dBi = 12.2 dBi). Equivalent to CM2020 for UHF and CM2018 for Hi-VHF ["VHF" Spec is ONLY for Hi-VHF, Lo-VHF would be LOWER]. So same as discussed above, probably Overkill for VHF and MUCH LOWER UHF Gain than CM4221HD.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

There's probably nothing to be gained by chasing any of the stations that are not "in the green" on his plot. Everything else is either a duplicate or translator, not particularly desirable content, or not likely to be received without extraordinary effort as in the case of the low powered stations 47 miles off to his east. The OP would have to indicate what his requirements more precisely.

Keep in mind that this Iowa just north of Des Moines. It's mostly about as flat as a pancake with nothing taller than a few tree and farm silos. My daughter used to live up there so I visited the area a few times.


----------



## rmorman

rabbit73 said:


> Can you tell us more about the old antenna?


It came with the house. No markings. I've been here 17 years and it was already there. I've attached 2 x pictures. It is missing a couple arms, but worked OK. Didn't know how well it would work with HD channels.



rabbit73 said:


> Were you using a preamp with the old antenna?


No I was not. I bought the preamp a year after buying the ULTRAtenna 60, as it didn't seem to be doing well. I didn't see ANY improvement. I did have problems getting the CM7777HD amp to power up at first. After replacing the coax from the ant to the power supply, it powered up. 



rabbit73 said:


> What channels did you get before, and what channels are you getting now? Which ones are missing?


We used to get KFPX-DT, WOI-DT, KCWI-DT, KCCI-DT, WHO-DT, KDIN-DT, KDSM-DT & MAYBE a couple others if the time of day was right. 

Starting last week, I lost all but KCCI & KDSM I believe. 



rabbit73 said:


> What channels do you want, by callsign and real channel number, just the ones in green?


See attached. I'd LIKE to get the ones I've highlighted in green and blue. FOR SURE the ones I've highlighted in green




rabbit73 said:


> There have been some problems with the CM7777HD amp. Which gain setting are you using?


Right now it is on the High side. I tried both the night I installed it, but not since then.

Let me know if there is ANY diagnostic stuff I can try. Hoping I overlooked something simple. Anyway to test anything? Should I try the old Ant? Is it crucial to have the ULTRAtenna 60 pointed in any particular direction?


----------



## holl_ands

You also mentioned HD7696, HD7697 and 91XG....see below UHF COMPARISON CHART
[I started working on a Hi-VHF Comparison Chart].

Note that A-D DB-8e used an RF Combiner, so Gain must be reduced by 0.5 to 1.5+ dB [more on higher UHF Channels].
BTW: FF6, FF4, FF3 and H2 refer to my OPTIMIZED DIY Multi-Bay Designs and M4's are mclapp's DIY 4-Bay Designs.

If your intention is to receive Out-Of-Market ABC on Weak Ch50, we should compare how well they perform near the UPPER end of the Current UHF Band (i.e 698 MHz)...which would ELIMINATE HD7696/7698. And note that 91XG has almost as much UHF Gain as CM4228HD on Ch50, but MUCH LESS Gain on the Lower UHF Channels...so CM4228HD would be preferable overall:


----------



## rmorman

ctdish said:


> The green channels should be pretty easy to get with an appropriate antenna. The Ultra antenna is a UHF antenna and three of the green channels are high VHF and one (ABC) is low VHF so it is not the best choice. The HD7698P covers high VHF and UHF so it is the best choice of the ones that the op mentions. I would also recommend not using a preamp.
> John


Our ABC channel is a problem and I would like to watch it. If that is the case, I would want a Winegard HD8200U or a Channel Master CM-3020, correct? I can also get rid of the preamp.



rabbit73 said:


> The EXTREMEtenna 80 is not suitable because it is also primarily a UHF antenna.
> 
> The Advantage 100 does cover all three TV bands, so it would include WOI ABC, real channel 5, but it might be bigger than necessary.
> 
> The Digital Advantage 100 is for VHF-High and UHF, so it does not include VHF-Low for WOI ABC, real channel 5.


I think I'm seeing a pattern here. Go with a directional that can get ABC and dump the pre amp.



ProjectSHO89 said:


> Return the antenna (wrong one) and the amp (inappropriate and unneeded).


I'm gonna have to eat those. Had them too long. I travel for work and don't always get stuff installed/diagnosed in a timely fashion. 



ProjectSHO89 said:


> If you're hung up on CM antennas and don't care if you have to wait for delivery, order either the CM-3016 (aka the Advantage 45) or the CM-5016 (aka Masterpiece 45). Either is appropriate.
> 
> If you want something TODAY that is manufactured in Iowa, run down to your local Menards. They usually stock the RCA ANT3036XR. It's way bigger than you should need, but it would work fine and offers immediate availability.
> 
> There are others options for mail order including the Winegard HD7000R (also made in Iowa). Ask before you get your credit card out.


Guess I'm not "hung Up" on Channel Master. Just want the best one. RCA, Channel Master or Winegard. 

Ask before you get your credit card out......... Yea... SHould have done that earlier!


----------



## rabbit73

Thanks for the photos of the old antenna and other information. The antenna looks like it covers all three bands.

Where is the antenna located in the photos? Is that where the antenna was located when it was being used?


> Didn't know how well it would work with HD channels.


It should work pretty much the same for HD, SD, and analog, as long as the frequency is the same.


> After replacing the coax from the ant to the power supply, it powered up..............Starting last week, I lost all but KCCI & KDSM I believe.


You might still be having a problem with a coax connection which would explain the loss of channels.


> Anyway to test anything?


Oh, yes. Try a temporary run of known good coax between the antenna and the TV.


> Should I try the old Ant?


Yes; where will it be located?


> Is it crucial to have the ULTRAtenna 60 pointed in any particular direction?


Yes, it is a directional antenna that works best when aimed at the transmitters, but it will only do well with the UHF channels.


----------



## rabbit73

> Our ABC channel is a problem and I would like to watch it. If that is the case, I would want a Winegard HD8200U or a Channel Master CM-3020, correct? I can also get rid of the preamp.......I think I'm seeing a pattern here. Go with a directional that can get ABC and dump the pre amp.


I think you are seeing the correct pattern. Some of the channels you want are very weak, so a lot of antenna gain will be needed because you will not be able to use much preamp gain because it will be overloaded by your strongest signals. The downside is that higher gain antennas have a narrower beamwidth, making aim more critical.


IOW, the difference between your strongest signals and your weakest signals, called the Signal Dynamic Range, is very great.


----------



## rmorman

rabbit73 said:


> Thanks for the photos of the old antenna and other information. The antenna looks like it covers all three bands.


I didn't know if the age of the unit mattered. Also, it is missing one or two "arms."



rabbit73 said:


> Where is the antenna located in the photos? Is that where the antenna was located when it was being used?


In those photos, the ant is leaning up against a wall next to the tractor. It was placed there after I took it of the roof and replaced it with the ULTRAtenna 60. That old ant was on the roof, same as the current unit, when it was in service.



rabbit73 said:


> It should work pretty much the same for HD, SD, and analog, as long as the frequency is the same.


I'll swap out the ULTRAtenna 60 & preamp with the old directional unit and run a scan.




rabbit73 said:


> You might still be having a problem with a coax connection which would explain the loss of channels.


Good point, if swapping ant does not make ANY difference, I'll know where to look next.



rabbit73 said:


> Yes; where will it be located?
> Yes, it is a directional antenna that works best when aimed at the transmitters, but it will only do well with the UHF channels.


The unit will be back on the roof. Only do well with UHF? I was under the impression that the ULTRAtenna 60 was where most of my problems were coming from IF the difference were the directional ant vs the one that isn't designed to pick up ABC? 



rabbit73 said:


> I think you are seeing the correct pattern. Some of the channels you want are very weak, so a lot of antenna gain will be needed because you will not be able to use much preamp gain because it will be overloaded by your strongest signals. The downside is that higher gain antennas have a narrower beamwidth, making aim more critical.


OK. Go big or go home? If the old directional unit is an improvement, I might try a CM-3020 that has all of its parts. Any tips/tools for "aiming?"

Getting dark out. Leaving on another short work trip tomorrow. I'll try this and get back with you.

THANKS TO ALL OF YOU FOR YOUR HELP!


----------



## ProjectSHO89

> If your intention is to receive Out-Of-Market ABC on Weak Ch50


That is WOI's metro UHF translator down in western Des Moines. They're one of the stations that found their low-VHF signal was useless for indoor antennas in urban and suburban locations so they installed the UHF translator.


OP:

All of your major stations should be easy. You should probably, if you already haven't, investigate all of those other stations to see if they're actually of interest to you. As I noted previously, the low power stations 47.x miles to your east are going to be very challenging to receive, if they're even possible. Are you sure they are worth the extra effort? If so, simply scrap out the preamp and aim your current antenna at them and see if they come in as a test. That will give you a good baseline as to whether or not they're going to be feasible.


----------



## rabbit73

Your tvfool report for reference because we are on a new page:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e6a42a129acd72
Image of report in attachment for use when the tvfool website is down.



> We used to get KFPX-DT, WOI-DT, KCWI-DT, KCCI-DT, WHO-DT, KDIN-DT, KDSM-DT & MAYBE a couple others if the time of day was right.


KFPX ION 39, with a NM of -7.8 dB is good catch. It is a 2Edge signal with terrain interference and only 22 kW out of 116 kW ERP is sent your way because of its directional transmitting antenna.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e6a42a129acd72&t=ALLTV&n=13



> See attached. I'd LIKE to get the ones I've highlighted in green and blue. FOR SURE the ones I've highlighted in green












K41DD very weak and in a different direction. Only 0.049 kW out of 13.3 kW ERP is sent in your direction because of the directional transmitting antenna. That's 49 Watts. You must want it for HSN. That might require a separate antenna, custom filter, and special preamp. If you can receive KFPX ION, it has HSN as a subchannel.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e6a42a129acd72&t=ALLTV&n=12

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=kfpx

KDMI easy
KDSM easy
KCWI easy
KCCI easy with VHF-High antenna
WHO easy with VHF-High antenna
KDIN easy with VHF-High antenna
WOI 5 easy with VHF-low antenna

WOI 50 weak and in a different direction; you want to deal with the problems of a rotator?
WBXF weak and in a different direction
KAJR very weak
KCYM extremely weak
KFPX very weak as mentioned above, but I guess you want ION


----------



## rabbit73

> I didn't know if the age of the unit mattered. Also, it is missing one or two "arms."


It would be OK for a test because it covers all three TV bands, but the missing elements probably reduce its performance. It should be replaced.


> The unit will be back on the roof. Only do well with UHF? I was under the impression that the ULTRAtenna 60 was where most of my problems were coming from IF the difference were the directional ant vs the one that isn't designed to pick up ABC?


If you make a test using the ULTRAtenna and new coax, you should expect it to do well for UHF channels, only fair for VHF-High (7-13) channels, and poorly for VHF-Low channels (2-6).


----------



## ProjectSHO89

> WOI 50 weak and in a different direction; you want to deal with the problems of a rotator?


A low-VHF antenna makes catching the UHF50 translator irrelevant. Besides, that translator WILL disappear with the repack, probably relocated to a different channel, perhaps gone completely.

When it comes to ION, I'm curious to see if they will remain as broadcasters after the auction or if they decided to sell out. A quick survey of the NAB's repack site doesn't turn up any of their stations as relocating, so either they simply didn't respond to the voluntary survey or they sold out. I'd suggest waiting until the official results are known before expending any additional effort in receiving their signal.


----------



## rmorman

ProjectSHO89 said:


> All of your major stations should be easy. You should probably, if you already haven't, investigate all of those other stations to see if they're actually of interest to you. As I noted previously, the low power stations 47.x miles to your east are going to be very challenging to receive, if they're even possible. Are you sure they are worth the extra effort? If so, simply scrap out the preamp and aim your current antenna at them and see if they come in as a test. That will give you a good baseline as to whether or not they're going to be feasible.


Good morning! 
Full disclosure. Before I packed up last night I decided to climb up on the roof and have a look. I had wanted to get some ideas from the forum before I climbed up there. SOOOOOOOO, got up on the roof with the intent of bypassing the amp and seeing what would happen. When I got up there I noticed that the light on the amp was not lit up. SOOOOOOOO, I figured out that the Bulldog had climbed behind the TV and unplugged the power to the amp....... Powered it back up, ran a scan and now back to where we started. As of this morning I'm getting KCCI, KDIN, WHO, KDSM, KDMI, KCWI & K41DD. That having been said, I still realize that the ULTRAtenna 60 won't (and didn't when I scanned) get WOI 5. So, when I get back home, I'll put up the old directional unit that SHOULD pick up WOI 5. 

I'm sure glad I posted here, as I learned why I was not getting WOI 5. That is important to me. 

I've attached a better picture of the old ant that will be going back up soon. For reference, it is standing next to an 8ft step ladder. If that is an improvement, I might very well invest in a new unit. After all, with just 2 months of cable bills, I'd have it paid for! 

After I get back I'll let you know how the swap went.

Russ


----------



## rmorman

ProjectSHO89 said:


> When it comes to ION, I'm curious to see if they will remain as broadcasters after the auction or if they decided to sell out. A quick survey of the NAB's repack site doesn't turn up any of their stations as relocating, so either they simply didn't respond to the voluntary survey or they sold out. I'd suggest waiting until the official results are known before expending any additional effort in receiving their signal.


This is REALLY good to know. Becky was REALLY wanting to get ION back. With the old ant that I'm putting back up this weekend, we got it. We no longer get it with the Ulta60, with or without the booster.


----------



## Channel99

ProjectSHO89 said:


> A low-VHF antenna makes catching the UHF50 translator irrelevant. Besides, that translator WILL disappear with the repack, probably relocated to a different channel, perhaps gone completely.
> 
> When it comes to ION, I'm curious to see if they will remain as broadcasters after the auction or if they decided to sell out. A quick survey of the NAB's repack site doesn't turn up any of their stations as relocating, so either they simply didn't respond to the voluntary survey or they sold out. I'd suggest waiting until the official results are known before expending any additional effort in receiving their signal.


Many broadcasters are probably waiting for the FCC to announce the rest of the deals all at once, in a sort of safety-in-numbers scenario. ION has 3 stations in the Boston market, and 1 in the adjacent Providence market. All are full power UHF stations, and all carrying the same main and 5 subchannels. It's hard to believe they would not want to pick up $100 million or more by giving up at least one of them. 

Then there are the stations owned by speculators like OTA (Michael Dell) and NRJ which haven't revealed anything.


----------



## SFischer1

rmorman said:


> ...
> 
> I'll put up the old directional unit that SHOULD pick up WOI 5
> ...
> 
> I've attached a better picture of the old ant that will be going back up soon. For reference, it is standing next to an 8ft step ladder. If that is an improvement, I might very well invest in a new unit. After all, with just 2 months of cable bills, I'd have it paid for!
> 
> After I get back I'll let you know how the swap went.
> 
> Russ


The longest element missing in the picture to the left will IMHO affect VHF-Lo the most.

But there may be not as bad an effect on RF 5. RF 2 is the most to be affected.

SHF


----------



## holl_ands

If you can provide Detailed Measurements for the Spacings along the Boom [X-Coords, X1 thru X4], Element Lengths [L1 thru L4] and Outer-Tip-to-Center of Boom [Y-Coords, Y1 thru Y2] for the four LONG VHF Element Pairs, then I can readily construct a 4nec2 Model and let you know what happens when one of the rear elements is missing. [My gut feel is that it won't be all that much of an impact, since the FRONT of the VHF LPDA is primarily Active for Ch5/6. And for Ch2/3 the Rearward Elements are primarily Active.]:
http://www.antenna-theory.com/antennas/wideband/log-periodic-dipole.php

It would also help if I could see some DETAILED PHOTOs [include a ruler or measure tape!!!] to determinee HOW the remaining most Rearward Half of an Element Pair connects to the (presumably Dual Boom) Feedline Structure....and another for the most Forward LPDA Element Pair.

BTW: I do NOT need info re the UHF Corner Reflector, Active Dipole Element (connection point for Balun), UHF Yagi Director Elements or the VHF/UHF Interconnect....the 4nec2 Model will ONLY include the 4 Element Pairs in the VHF LPDA section.

FYI: Here is a similar Investigation I conducted for the VHF LPDA section of a severely damaged R-S VU-190XR:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/zigzaglpa/vhflpda/vhfrsvu190xrlpdanouhf


----------



## rmorman

SFischer1 said:


> The longest element missing in the picture to the left will IMHO affect VHF-Lo the most.
> 
> But there may be not as bad an effect on RF 5. RF 2 is the most to be affected.
> 
> SHF


Planning on trying the old unit again this weekend if not too windy.



holl_ands said:


> If you can provide Detailed Measurements for the Spacings along the Boom [X-Coords, X1 thru X4], Element Lengths [L1 thru L4] and Outer-Tip-to-Center of Boom [Y-Coords, Y1 thru Y2] for the four LONG VHF Element Pairs, then I can readily construct a 4nec2 Model and let you know what happens when one of the rear elements is missing. [My gut feel is that it won't be all that much of an impact, since the FRONT of the VHF LPDA is primarily Active for Ch5/6. And for Ch2/3 the Rearward Elements are primarily Active.]:
> http://www.antenna-theory.com/antennas/wideband/log-periodic-dipole.php
> 
> It would also help if I could see some DETAILED PHOTOs [include a ruler or measure tape!!!] to determinee HOW the remaining most Rearward Half of an Element Pair connects to the (presumably Dual Boom) Feedline Structure....and another for the most Forward LPDA Element Pair.
> 
> BTW: I do NOT need info re the UHF Corner Reflector, Active Dipole Element (connection point for Balun), UHF Yagi Director Elements or the VHF/UHF Interconnect....the 4nec2 Model will ONLY include the 4 Element Pairs in the VHF LPDA section.
> 
> FYI: Here is a similar Investigation I conducted for the VHF LPDA section of a severely damaged R-S VU-190XR:
> http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/zigzaglpa/vhflpda/vhfrsvu190xrlpdanouhf


Cool, Thanks! I might just take you up on that!


----------



## jspENC

I've got a question, about installing a 7-13 antenna. I've had OTA since before digital, but since the end of analog I have been using a UHF only. I had been lucky up until the last several months, picking up VHF with it, but I started having issues with channel 10. I believe it is a neighbors fountain that is making enough noise to kill my signal. I am about to install this antenna, and will do so with a horizontal mast at the top of my pole. One side will carry the VHF, the other my weather sensor. Then below will be the UHF 8 bowties. 

The question is, can I install this VHF antenna sideways? (vertical) Will it be just as effective?


----------



## ctdish

Short answer : NO
The only chance for using a vertical antenna for TV is if the station were to be using circular polarization.
John


----------



## jspENC

There are a couple of VHF's that are using circular, but not the channel 10. Thanks ctdish for the advice. I will do the install horizontal.


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## Calaveras

jspENC said:


> There are a couple of VHF's that are using circular, but not the channel 10. Thanks ctdish for the advice. I will do the install horizontal.



If you're going to mount a horizontal antenna on a horizontal mast the mast must not be metal. I've used fiberglass poles to do this.


----------



## SFischer1

Calaveras said:


> If you're going to mount a horizontal antenna on a horizontal mast the mast must not be metal. I've used fiberglass poles to do this.


We know the jointenna is toast and no longer is a useful product now even at a high price.

My question is: Can you buy a filter to reduce the VHF signals from a existing VHF / UHF antenna so a separate VHF antenna can be used. We may need to get a VHF-Lo antenna to use with an existing VHF-Hi / UHF antenna.

I would use a separate cable and tuner as I do now but many people may start to need VHF-Lo and start asking questions as to how to combine the antennas. 

SHF


----------



## ADTech

> Can you buy a filter to reduce the VHF signals from a existing VHF / UHF antenna so a separate VHF antenna can be used.


Sure, just use a UVSJ. Our UHF/VHF combiner is an example of one. If you have a surviving Radio Shack store around, the 15-2586 is another. Online availability of those guys for under $5 seems to have dried up. I suspect that Holland, Pico et al, have discontinued them.


----------



## SFischer1

ADTech said:


> Sure, just use a UVSJ. Our UHF/VHF combiner is an example of one. If you have a surviving Radio Shack store around, the 15-2586 is another. Online availability of those guys for under $5 seems to have dried up. I suspect that Holland, Pico et al, have discontinued them.


OK, use the UVSJ to eliminate the VHF frequencies from the VHF/UHF antenna leaving the VHF connector unused and then use a second UVSJ to combine the separate VHF antenna and the UHF from the first UVSJ.

Sounds like a plan.  No Inserted Multipath. 

SHF


----------



## rabbit73

> My question is: Can you buy a filter to reduce the VHF signals from a existing VHF / UHF antenna so a separate VHF antenna can be used. We may need to get a VHF-Lo antenna to use with an existing VHF-Hi / UHF antenna.


The proper device to combine a VHF-Low antenna with a VHF-High/UHF antenna is a HLSJ.










The low port passes VHF-Low and blocks VHF-High and UHF. The high port blocks VHF-Low and passes VHF-High and UHF.


----------



## ADTech

That's twice as many UVSJ devices than are needed.

One will do that just fine.


----------



## rabbit73

If you use a UVSJ to combine a VHF-Low antenna with a VHF-High/UHF antenna, you will lose the VHF-High channels from the VHF-High/UHF antenna. The high-pass filter section of the UVSJ passes above about 300 MHz.

That would only be OK if the VHF-Low antenna is able to pick up the VHF-High channels you need.

Maybe you could tell us which channels you have in mind and show us a tvfool report?

Or, maybe I didn't understand what you said. I thought you said you wanted to use a VHF-Low antenna for VHF-Low channels and a VHF-High/UHF combo antenna for VHF-High and UHF.


----------



## SFischer1

rabbit73 said:


> If you use a UVSJ to combine a VHF-Low antenna with a VHF-High/UHF antenna, you will lose the VHF-High channels from the VHF-High/UHF antenna.
> 
> That would only be OK if the VHF-Low antenna is able to pick up the VHF-High channels you need.
> 
> Maybe you could tell us which channels you have in mind and show us a tvfool report?


You will have to wait ~ three (3) weeks, only then will the need be known. If I have a need then there is the problem of where to put the antenna, only one antenna is allowed now and the mounting is a very serious problem.

http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=2165469 

Maybe a better plan would be to grind off the metal coating of the boards of the underside of my new roof.

I have a mute VHF-Hi/Lo antenna in my attic which was working great until the new roof was put in place. The CM4228HD gets RF 7 and RF 12 just fine.

SHF


----------



## rabbit73

Thank you for the background information. Yes, you will have a serious problem if you need a 2-6 channel. The aluminum foil thermal barrier will block it for the attic antenna, and your 4228 probably will not have enough gain for a VHF-Low channel unless it is extremely strong.

You would have to remove a lot of foil for an attic VHF-Low antenna.

It might be possible to mount a simple VHF-Low dipole, folded dipole, or bent folded dipole above the 4228, after the manner of the C4V, but with a longer dipole.


----------



## jspENC

The VHF antenna I bought (stellar lab) has a tilting option. Should I tilt it at all, a lot, or keep it flat? Thanks. I've never owned such a well built antenna! It was simple to assemble also.


----------



## rabbit73

Which model did you get; 30-2475, 30-2476? 

The tilt adjustment allows you to aim the antenna above the horizontal. This is often useful if you live behind a hill in the signal path to catch the signals coming down from the ridge.

for example:


----------



## jspENC

rabbit73 said:


> Which model did you get; 30-2475, 30-2476?
> 
> The tilt adjustment allows you to aim the antenna above the horizontal. This is often useful if you live behind a hill in the signal path to catch the signals coming down from the ridge.
> 
> for example:


30-2475. Plenty big!

I have it on the ground maybe 6 ft high and it's pointing toward the ground but is picking up channel 10 perfectly (42 miles) . Just wait till I get it up on the pole...  Being I am in a low area, I may tilt it up some.


----------



## SFischer1

rabbit73 said:


> Thank you for the background information. Yes, you will have a serious problem if you need a 2-6 channel. The aluminum foil thermal barrier will block it for the attic antenna, and your 4228 probably will not have enough gain for a VHF-Low channel unless it is extremely strong.
> 
> You would have to remove a lot of foil for an attic VHF-Low antenna.
> 
> It might be possible to mount a simple VHF-Low dipole, folded dipole, or bent folded dipole above the 4228, after the manner of the C4V, but with a longer dipole.


It also would depend on the direction of the VHF-Lo Transmitter, the station expected to move to RF 5 is along the same path as Sutro but at 75 miles not likely receivable. (KRCB, but while I do watch some non PBS programs, it can be discarded as it is a duplicate PBS.) The metal roof blocks stations to the East and South but there are no stations in those directions of interest. The CM4228HD has a little lobe ~ 90 Degrees so those closer UHF stations to the North East do come in. I need to use a bookshelf TERK HDTVa for KTVU RF 48 as there is now too much wood in the path when the wind blows (Like now) to pick up KTVU RF 44 which is moving to RF 31 within 39 months. Other RF channels are not affected by the wind.

*http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e6a44989f75b87*

SHF


----------



## Calaveras

jspENC said:


> The VHF antenna I bought (stellar lab) has a tilting option. Should I tilt it at all, a lot, or keep it flat? Thanks. I've never owned such a well built antenna! It was simple to assemble also.



The vertical beamwidth of both Stellar Labs VHF antennas is specified at 30 degrees. That means the signal is down 3 dB at +/- 15 degrees. Unless you're looking into a 15 degree hill tilting the antenna does nothing in regards to signal strength. If you have a station behind a hill anywhere near 15 degrees you won't be able to receive it because the signal can't diffract over the hill by that amount. In most cases if the angle of diffraction is more than a couple degrees you won't be able to receive the station.

I have a friend who is blocked by a 10 degree hill to Mt. Sutro in San Francisco about 20 miles away. There are many full power UHF stations located there. His TV Fool report showed it should be possible to receive some stations. I used my spectrum analyzer to look at the signals on an outdoor UHF antenna. I could see lots of reflected signals from various directions but there were no useable signals pointed directly at the tower.

Tilting is a gimmick that doesn't stand up to technical analysis.


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## rabbit73

I have helped several people located behind a hill who found that tilting made the difference between receiving the channel or not.

At one of my antenna test sites that has a clear LOS across water, tilting a 4-bay antenna made a significant increase in signal strength.










I think it is a mistake to made a blanket rule; you just have to try it. What do you have to lose?

I also think it is a mistake to discourage experimentation.

The best solution is the one that works.


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## rabbit73

SFischer1 said:


> It also would depend on the direction of the VHF-Lo Transmitter


Yes, of course, but the dipole can be aimed in a different direction than the 4228HD.


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## jspENC

Calaveras said:


> The vertical beamwidth of both Stellar Labs VHF antennas is specified at 30 degrees. That means the signal is down 3 dB at +/- 15 degrees. Unless you're looking into a 15 degree hill tilting the antenna does nothing in regards to signal strength. If you have a station behind a hill anywhere near 15 degrees you won't be able to receive it because the signal can't diffract over the hill by that amount. In most cases if the angle of diffraction is more than a couple degrees you won't be able to receive the station.
> 
> I have a friend who is blocked by a 10 degree hill to Mt. Sutro in San Francisco about 20 miles away. There are many full power UHF stations located there. His TV Fool report showed it should be possible to receive some stations. I used my spectrum analyzer to look at the signals on an outdoor UHF antenna. I could see lots of reflected signals from various directions but there were no useable signals pointed directly at the tower.
> 
> Tilting is a gimmick that doesn't stand up to technical analysis.


I've been testing the antenna out at ground level, and no matter which way I aim the antenna, the two powerful VHF's 10 and 12 come in fine. I also aimed the antenna to a weak VHF 8 WFXI way out on the edge of the coast 55 miles away, and it comes in at 50% 6 ft off the ground. This antenna will do what I want no matter how I aim it I think. I am going to do a slight tilt and aim it at WTVD 11 which is near 90 miles NW for permanent install.


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## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> I have helped several people located behind a hill who found that tilting made the difference between receiving the channel or not.
> 
> At one of my antenna test sites that has a clear LOS across water, tilting a 4-bay antenna made a significant increase in signal strength.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it is a mistake to made a blanket rule; you just have to try it. What do you have to lose?
> 
> I also think it is a mistake to discourage experimentation.



It's a mis-analysis of the situation to think that tilting the antenna will increase the signal strength. It cannot. What's happening is that the response of the antenna to reflections coming from various directions has changed and allows the SNR to go up a little. It's not a good way to get reliable reception. Certainly you must realize that if an antenna has a 30 degree beamwidth and a signal is diffracting over a 2 degree hill that tilting the antenna up 2 degrees will have negliable impact on the direct path signal the antenna sees?


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## Calaveras

jspENC said:


> I am going to do a slight tilt and aim it at WTVD 11 which is near 90 miles NW for permanent install.



It's nearly impossible to get 100% reception on any station 90 miles away except under very specific circumstances. I receive a channel 8 115 miles away 100% but their antenna is at 3500' and my antenna is at 2640' with the San Joaquin Valley in between us with only one low ridge to cross.


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## SFischer1

rabbit73 said:


> Yes, of course, but the dipole can be aimed in a different direction than the 4228HD.


And if RF 2 is needed, that antenna will hit the roof for some directions.

Another idea is to replace my bed with a four poster, extending one of the posts up to near the celling just under the roof for an VHF antenna.  Or do something like that in the Eastern second story electronics room. I have a VHF antenna that I purchased at about the same time with the 4 bay bow-tie also mute in the attic stacked up in a corner.

I will know in ~ 2 weeks it is said now, but if very few channels are free the ATSC 3.0 transition may require the use of VHF-Lo channels. That will not be known for years.

SHF


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## rabbit73

Calaveras said:


> It's a mis-analysis of the situation to think that tilting the antenna will increase the signal strength.


I'm not making an analysis, mis or otherwise, merely observing what a tuner tells me about signal strength and signal quality after a scan.

Is there a better measure of performance?


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## rabbit73

SFischer1 said:


> And if RF 2 is needed, that antenna will hit the roof for some directions.


It's your project; you have the freedom to adopt any of your solutions that work.


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## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> I'm not making an analysis, mis or otherwise, merely observing what a tuner tells me about signal strength and signal quality after a scan.
> 
> Is there a better measure of performance?



How about presenting some measurements and not just claims? What is the antenna setup? Present a table of signal strengths in dBm vs tilt and what was used to measure them. Plot the antenna pattern so you know if your results make any sense. Saying you tilted an antenna up a few degrees and claiming a signal strength increase makes no sense. That's not how antennas work. If you observe something that goes against the way antennas perform you need to be able to explain the observation otherwise you have no idea if it'll work the next time when recommending it to someone else. Without measurements your shoreline example doesn't mean much. You have no idea why it worked.

Saying there's no harm in trying something is pointless. There are hundreds of things one could try and maybe you might stumble upon one that works. So what if 1 in say 500 times tilting the antenna improves a station? This tilting stuff is just a marketing gimmick by a few who make antennas or antenna mounts that can tilt. There's no legitimate expectation that it'll do anything. It's not like recommending a higher gain antenna, a preamp, siting the antenna above trees or any other thing that has a solid technical basis. 

Attached is 360 degree plot of my homemade 22 element LPDA on channel 8. I know that the beamwidth is about 36 degrees. I know that moving the antenna 10 degrees makes only a 1 dB change, essentially nothing.


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## tripelo

*Antenna Pattern Effect - Vertical Tilt*



Calaveras said:


> ...It's a mis-analysis of the situation to think that tilting the antenna will increase the signal strength. It cannot...





rabbit73 said:


> ...I'm not making an analysis, mis or otherwise, merely observing what a tuner tells me about signal strength and signal quality after a scan...


It is possible that both viewpoints could be correct.

Ground reflections combine with direct signal at antenna and create lobes (maxima & minima) in the vertical antenna pattern. The number of maximas and minimas and their locations are related to the height of the antenna above signal ground. Increased height results in larger numbers of max and mins. 

In general, tilting an antenna upward does not do much for the gain of the main lobe (1st maxima), it can slightly reduce gain. However, tilting upward can fill in the minimas. These minimas can be quite deep.

If a signal arrival angle happens to be close to an antenna parttern minima, then tilting can have an appreciable effect on received signal amplitude. 

_Maxima: Locations of antenna pattern representing higher gain.
Minima: Often thought of as a null (low signal gain)

.
_


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## tripelo

*Example of Ground Reflection - Antenna Pattern*

An example of a 4NEC2 generated antenna pattern showing multi-lobes resulting from ground reflection.

http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php?p=37864&postcount=61

Don't have a pattern handy that shows the null-filling that occurs when the antenna is tilted. However, if one can visualize that nulls occur when two signals are equal and 180 degrees out of phase. Then, tilting an antenna changes the relative amplitude and phase relationship between the direct signal and the ground reflected signal.

.


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## holl_ands

Only a FEW Antenna Types [mostly Multi-Bay Arrays of Vertically STACKED Elements] have conveniently located NULLS in the ELEVATION Pattern...and when they DO, the Angle usually VARIES with Frequency.....hence it would be handy to have REMOTE CONTROL of the Elevation Beam Angle "Tilter" if you want to TWEAK for BEST Multipath Suppression. Some Antennnas [esp Yagi's] have very well behaved Azimuth + Elevation Patterns, with NO Actual NULLS except OVERHEAD....or perhaps ONLY on the Higher Channels. However, even a well-formed Elevation BEAM can be tilted UPWARDS so that the Ground Bounce has significantly LESS Gain when it falls on the lower Elevation SIDELOBE, such as A-D 91XG cited below. 

The BEST Nulling Performance is when the Angle between Desired and Undesired Ground Bounce is equal to the Angle between the Antenna's Beam and the Null....BUT this is VERY RARE, such as when close to a HUGE Hill...in which case Ground Bounce would NOT occur anyway. So Vertical Stacks are preferred if you intend to use the NULL to suppress Ground Bounce Multipath and/or Man-Made Noise.

Some Single Antenna Examples [similar Antennas likely provide similar performance]:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl/newcm4228hdwithhollandshorizharness *[CM4228HD + HHH 8**-Bay Bowties]*
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibaydipoles/winegardhd8800 *[Winegard HD-8800 8-Bay FAT Dipoles]*
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/uhf6baybowtievdar *[FF6 Free-Form 6-Bay Bowties]*
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl/uhffreeform4baydblanglreflopt * [FF4 Free-Form 4-Bay Bowties]*
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl/uhfnewcm4221hd * [CM4221HD - Hacked 4-Bay Bowties]
*http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/91xg* [A-D 91XG at about 20-30 Deg Upward Look Angle]
*http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/logyagi/wgya1713/ya1713modelingthecrossover* [W-G Hi-VHF YA-1713]
*http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/zigzaglpa/uhflpda/uhf7ellpdaterkhdtvi *[Terk HDTVi 7-Element Pair LPDA]*

Some Vertically Stacked Examples:
[NULLS require LESS Upward Look Angle...but are fairly Narrow Beamwidth...and vary with Frequency]
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/stacked/verticallystackeduhf/vertstackff6doubleanglerefl *[V-Stack 2 x FF6's]
*http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/stacked/verticallystackeduhf/uhfvstack91xg *[V-Stack 2 x 91XG]
*http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/stacked/verticallystackeduhf/uhfvstack7elfdyagi2rr *[V-Stack 2 x 7El FD-Yagi]

*There are many others, these just happen to be the ones for which I have prepared Elevation Charts.

===============================================
BTW: 5th Gen and later ATSC Decoder Chips showed a DRAMATIC Improvement in being able to handle the WORST-CASE OTA Ensemble Test Captures" [per CECB Tests against MANDATORY Requirements derived from ATSC A/74 Test Ensembles]. Although it used to be a SERIOUS problem for most pre-2008 ATSC Decoders, I'm not convinced that MODERN DTV/STB Tuners are all that much affected by Multipath...and indeed, the TWO different signals coming into the Tuner SHOULD be coherently SUMMED by the ATSC Chip's Adaptive Equalizer [enhancing the SNR], and if ONE of the Signals fades out, the other is likely to STILL be usable. So Nulling out the Ground Bounce MAY help your situation [esp. if you are actually Nulling out Man-Made Noise..more a problem for VHF]....or make it WORSE....so YMMV:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...tate-atsc-tuner-development.html#post23313166
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...ration-receiver-chip-news-11.html#post6041081 [Poor Performance PRIOR to Mandated CECB Specs]


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## tripelo

holl_ands said:


> ...MODERN DTV/STB Tuners are all that much affected by Multipath...


Some evidence would be useful.



> ...and indeed, the TWO different signals coming into the Tuner SHOULD be coherently SUMMED by the ATSC Chip's Adaptive Equalizer [enhancing the SNR],...


Especially evidence for the 2nd portion of the statement.

.


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## Calaveras

tripelo said:


> An example of a 4NEC2 generated antenna pattern showing multi-lobes resulting from ground reflection.
> 
> http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php?p=37864&postcount=61
> 
> Don't have a pattern handy that shows the null-filling that occurs when the antenna is tilted. However, if one can visualize that nulls occur when two signals are equal and 180 degrees out of phase. Then, tilting an antenna changes the relative amplitude and phase relationship between the direct signal and the ground reflected signal.
> 
> .



It doesn't seem to me that this is very applicable in the real world except in a very few situations. For a typical outdoor antenna up 20-30 feet and the angle of the direct path signal slightly above 0 degrees, the point of reflection of the reflected signal will be far out in front of the receive antenna. That path is likely to be packed with ground clutter (buildings and vegetation) so that the ground reflected signal is highly attenuated. I would think that in most situations the reflected signal will be nearly nonexistent. 

We tell people seeking antenna advice all the time to get your antenna up as high as possible to minimize ground clutter attenuation. Raising the antenna will not reduce the reflected signal attenuation.

The example that rabbit73 gave with a low antenna located on the shore of a lake is probably one of the exceptions. A low antenna has a relatively close reflection point and has no ground clutter attenuation. There are very few OTA viewers with this situation.


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## Calaveras

holl_ands said:


> I'm not convinced that MODERN DTV/STB Tuners are all that much affected by Multipath...and indeed, the TWO different signals coming into the Tuner SHOULD be coherently SUMMED by the ATSC Chip's Adaptive Equalizer [enhancing the SNR],



Although I've never got a direct answer on this, I assume the Adaptive Equalizer can only handle one reflection. That certainly is helpful but in the real world multiple reflections are common. The mountains to the east of me produce a large number of reflections. In the analog days if I pointed my antennas to the east I got strong signals but the picture was completely scrambled. It was impossible to tell what was being shown. 

This is reason the 91XG works best for those of us in the Sierra Nevada foothills. It has the best overall pattern to reject the many reflections. I have 20-40 dB fade margins on all my network stations so the last couple of dB gain is much less important than the best pattern possible.


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## Larry Kenney

I thought I'd share the results I get with my collection of antennas. I have six sets of antennas on my roof: 91XG/10 element yagi on a rotor, a C5/CM4228 combination, a separate CM4228, an Antennas Direct SR-15, an LP-345 log-periodic and an Omni-directional HD-8008. Yeah, that's a lot of antennas, but I love comparing them under various conditions. 

With all of them, I find that just a slight change in direction can make all the difference in signal quality. As little as 5 degrees can make a difference between a perfect signal and too much multipath to produce a signal. I live 3/4 mile from Sutro Tower here in San Francisco, to the west at 268 degrees, and with all of the hills and other reflections around me, even at that close distance a few degrees can make a big difference in quality. While I can receive every station from Sutro, Mt. San Bruno - 5 miles, Mt. Diablo - 30 miles, the two transmitter sites above Fremont in the South Bay - 35 miles, Novato - 32 miles and Sonoma Mountain 45 miles to the north, and many from Walnut Grove at 62-65 miles, the antenna used and the direction makes surprising differences.

First, I cannot point the 91XG/10 element in a 20 degree arc toward Sutro Tower. The signals are too strong and my receivers overload. Yet turning the antennas to either side I can get 100% signal strength and 100% signal quality on every Sutro station, using my HD Home Run receiver scanner as an indicator. But here's the interesting part -- every station has a different direction for getting that 100/100% signal. Turning the antenna in an arc from northeast to southeast there are points where I can totally lose most of those same signals from Sutro! With the antennas pointed at 55 degrees toward Walnut Grove, most of the Sutro stations are near the cliff edge.

I've found that pointing the 91XG/10 element antennas at 191 degrees I can receive 27 signals from the various sites, including all of the Sutro (268 degrees), Mt. San Bruno (185 degrees) and South Bay stations (best at 220 degrees) plus one from Mt. Diablo (72 degrees) and one from Sonoma Mountain (355 degrees) producing 124 sub-channels. Although the signal quality is not the best it's good enough to produce solid pictures.

With the CM4228's I cannot find that same spot. I can get all of the Sutro stations or all of the Mt. San Bruno stations and some of the South Bay stations, but not all of them with one position. They're not on rotors, so I've set them for best overall results, one for Sutro at 250 degrees, one for Mt. San Bruno/South Bay at 200 degrees. The SR-15 is pointed at 345 degrees and works well for the stations to the north plus Sutro stations, and the LP-345 is pointed at Walnut Grove 55 degrees. I thought it would be a good back up for the Walnut Grove stations, but it only works when the signals are above average strength, so it's mostly useless now, but it does pick up all the Sutro stations off the back.

Oh, the Omni 8008 -- it works well for the Sutro stations and most of the Mt. San Bruno stations, but that's it. It doesn't receive the stations that are 30, 35 or more miles away.

Larry


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## holl_ands

In a former life I was involved in RDT&E of Adaptive Delay Equalizers for 3-kHz Bandwidth HF Communications Modems [slightly different paths through Ionosphere result in Doppler Spread, which MAY interfere with the Surface Wave, which arrives MUCH sooner, but has limited Range....HF is MUCH more difficult than Phone Line Modems.] I was also involved in surprisingly similar Adaptive Antenna Arrays [Multiple Input Adaptive Time Delay Equalizers result in Beam forming towards Desired Signal Direction with Null(s) towards Undesired Signals using Multiple Antennas that may or may NOT be in a Symmetric Arrangement....in WiFi Routers and 4G/LTE it's the Receive part of MIMO]. But that was a LONG TIME ago and I'm going to stick with known Evidence re those SAME Adaptive Delay Equalizer techniques....except on the MUCH wider 5-MHz Bandwidth ATSC signal.

Based on Bench Tests on Zenith/LG Prototype [Double-Conversion] ATSC Tuner, non-mandatory Performance GUIDELINES were published in ATSC A/74 [Original Jun2004, latest Apr2010]. Note that it includes MANY DIFFERENT Multipath Tests, incl. Single Echo (two signals) and MULTIPLE Echo Tests with UP TO SIX PATHS, ONE with DYNAMIC FADING (Doppler):
http://atsc.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Receiver-Performance-Guidelines.pdf

CRC's Test Report on the Prototype Samsung ATSC Tuner gave quite a bit of details on A/74 Tests.....and RESULTS....I have a digital copy but have not yet located a working Weblink.....I also have digital copies of Prototype Zenith/LG and Linx (Who??? Later bought by Micronas) Test Reports.

Fol. Chart plots SINGLE STATIC ECHO performance for five ATSC Receivers (unspecified, clearly CECB's or later) compared to A/74 "Guidelines". Note that two NEARLY EQUAL signals can be accommodated...but ONLY for a fairly small Echo Delay Time...and one of the signals must be progressively Weaker to successfully decode signals with increasing Echo Delay Times....and higher Max Delay for Post-Echo than Pre-Echo Bench Test Signals:
Taken from Andy S Lee's description of Adaptive Delay Equalizer:
http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=101










In Mar2007 CECB Spec, some of those "Guidelines" were made MANDATORY to be eligible for U.S. Gov't Subsidized Low-Rez ATSC CECB's (Coupon Eligible Converter Boxes]:
https://www.ntia.doc.gov/legacy/dtvcoupon/DTVmanufacturers.pdf

Para 14 "Field Ensembles" and Para 15 "Single Static Echo" Test Requirements address MULTIPATH performance. When conducting early OTA ATSC Test Efforts, special RF A/D Converters were used to CAPTURE received signals, incl. 50 "Worse-Of-The-Worse" FIELD ENSEMBLES that were provided to ATSC Decoder Chip manufacturers, as described in A/74 [and the CRC ATSC Tuner Test Reports]. Consensus is that 3 of the 50 will NEVER be decodable due to capture issues [for example, two contained NO VIDEO signals].

Fol. Jan2012 White Paper by Charles Rhodes (regular contributor to TV Technology Magazine), summarizes the YUGE improvement in performance between the EARLY ATSC Decoder Chips [see Fig 2 vs Fig 7] and the so-called "5th Gen" [2003/2004 Zenith Terminology with 50-usec Post-Echo as well as 50-usec PRE-ECHO capability] and "6th Gen" Chips with ADDITIONAL enhancements that were introduced in Low-Rez CECB's in 2007...which found their way into many HD-DTV/STB's in 2008:
http://broadcastwind.com/broadcast-...-to-multipath-interference-from-wind-turbines
[Click on images for a CLEAR image.....original data/charts found in the documents I cited in my preceeding Post.]

One of the most important differences was the ability to handle a LONG Pre-Echo (something we learned long ago in HF Modems). In early Delay Equalizers when trying to ACQUIRE a Multipath degraded signal where BOTH Paths are Fading, IF the "EARLY" Path has faded away, the Equalizer will likely "LOCK" onto the "LATE" Path....so the "EARLY" Path becomes INTERFERENCE from that point forward. Sure, the Equalizer COULD be put back onto ACQUIRE Mode [with a resultant GLITCH]....but that's not what was implemented. With a more computationally complex DOUBLE-LENGTH Equalizer, the initial part of the Frame will appear in the MIDDLE of the Equalizer when the "EARLY" Path is present and will appear in the EARLY part of the Equalizer IF the "EARLY" Path has faded away....so in the first case it can handle up to 50-us of Post-Echo and up to TWICE than in the second case. The 5th and 6th Gen Chips also accommodated much larger Delays, whereas some of the Early Chips could only handle much LESS than +/- 50-usec. [Since Speed-Of-Light is about 1-nsec/foot, 50-usec is a Delay Difference of not quite 10-miles.]

Field Ensemble Success Chart [see Fig 4] illustrates the even more important improvement in performance with REAL OTA SIGNALS....the "Worst-Of-The-Worst FIELD ENSEMBLES. In the 2002-2005 Tests, the BLUE Lines clearly show the difference between "5th Gen" Chips vs earlier Chips....and the RED Lines show the Spread in Performance in the EARLY CECB Chips (they have probably ALL improved since this early snap-shot). Fol. Chart from broadcastwind article above:


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## holl_ands

From my experience testing HF Modems with Adaptive Delay Equalizers on HF Channel Simulators, I KNOW that SNR performance improves when there are TWO Ionospheric Paths vs just ONE....i.e. One-Hop Interfering with Two-Hop (or Three-Hop) propagation modes [Two-Hop means it Refracts off the Ionosphere, bounces back to be Reflected off the Earth and then Refracts a SECOND time off the Ionosphere...obviously at a MUCH Higher Angle than a One-Hop mode]. The Adaptive Delay Equalizer forms the Time Delay FILTER that UNDOES the Interference, so that the two paths can be COHERENTLY Added together. And since EACH PATH contributes to the TOTAL Energy, the SNR Measurement is improved by up to 3 dB.

Unfortunately, this TIME DIVERSITY Combining Gain is very rarely MEASURED....except in the fol. Australian Test Report of ATSC vs COFDM [and CRC's Prototype ATSC Receiver Test Reports discussed in a later Post]:
http://happy.emu.id.au/lab/rep/rep/9801/9801_001.htm

*Table 3.5.1 - Summary of DTTB C/N Thresholds* can be a bit confusing, since it tabulates the progression of the 7 MHz Bandwidth Transmitter (for COFDM) vs the 6 MHz Transmitter that appears to have been used for ATSC Testing. Try to ignore the SNR Threshhold measurements trying to push ATSC through the 7 MHz Transmitter. In the *Test Rig (6 MHz), ATSC C/N = 15.1 dB*:
http://happy.emu.id.au/lab/rep/rep/9801/9801_035.htm#s3p5

*Table 3.7.1 - Spot Measurements of System Parameters* lists the various C/N (db) Ratios for the various COFDM Operating Modes with ATSC at the bottom: *C/N = 15.1 dB for 19.39 Mbps* (so obviously 6 MHz operations):
http://happy.emu.id.au/lab/rep/rep/9801/9801_037.htm#s3p7

*Table 3.8.5 - 8-VSB Link Echo Levels* lists the various C/N Ratios under various Post-Echo and Pre-Echo Test Conditions [ignore results for Pre-Echo, since the old ATSC Equalizer was the 1st Gen Zenith Prototype [Blue Rack]....so we should expect MODERN ATSC Tuners to do even better than the Post-Echo Results: *C/N = 14.4 to 14.5 dB....a 0.7 to 0.6 dB IMPROVEMENT*.
http://happy.emu.id.au/lab/rep/rep/9801/9801_038.htm#s3p8
BTW: If you compare Spectral Charts, you can clearly see that ATSC is operating in 6 MHz mode, whereas COFDM is in 7 MHz mode.


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## holl_ands

Way back in 2May2000 [*using Zenith's FIRST PROTOTYPE Double-Conversion ATSC Receiver*], Brazil's ABERT/SET published a Test Report comparing ATSC (6 MHz) to COFDM (7 MHz)....and of course Zenith's 1st Gen Tuner performed miserably compared to Multipath Tolerant COFDM [also tolerates moderate vehicle SPEEDS that ATSC 1.0 does NOT] using a more mature PRODUCTION COFDM System. But we've come a long way since then, so take these VERY EARLY Test Results with a HUGE Grain of Salt when considering performance of Tuners since about 2006/2007 [and TRANSMITTERS with more modern Emission Filters]. Indeed about the ONLY info of interest to us NOW is Section 3.0, starting on pg 157 of 282, where five Multipath Test Conditions are described, known as the *BRAZIL A thru E Multipath Tests*. Test Descriptions are in Sec 3.0...and BRAZIL-D is a mostly PRE-ECHO MP Test....and NONE of these are for extremely LONG Delay Requirements found in A/74: [Also summarized in LAST Image at Bottom of this Post...plus others used by CRC.]
http://set.org.br/tecnologia/testing.pdf

Note that *BRAZIL-E* was intentionally designed to test the WORST-CAST Single Frequency Network (*SFN*) condition wherein a Receiver TRIES to decode EQUAL STRENGTH signals coming from THREE different SFN Transmitters with different [fairly SMALL] Echo Delay Offsets. [Note that the three ATSC 4th/5th Gen Tuners tested by CRC could successfully decode BRAZIL-E....but it required MUCH HIGHER SNR's]. PS: Well....this unusual condition COULD happen....although in the REAL WORLD, signal strengths are NEVER EXACTLY the SAME for very long [and hence likely for the RF signals to Exactly CANCEL each other for part of the time]. So this condition would only occur for few milliseconds at a time....so a BETTER SFN Test would explore SMALL differences in Signal Strength.

In 2002 thru 2005, CRC [Communications Research Center, Canada] tested (4th Gen) Linx/Micronas, (5th Gen) Zenith and (5th Gen) Samsung PROTOTYPE ATSC Tuners, where the *Multipath Test Results using BRAZIL-A thru E* are provided below. I STILL can't find a Weblink (these images are from my Digital Copy) but perhaps others can dig up a suitable Webline using info. on fol. TR Covers:
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_a... Tuner 4Apr2002 - Test Report Cover Sheet.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_a...Tuner Sept2003 - Test Report Cover Sheet.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_a...Tuner 30Aug2005 - Test Report Cover Sheet.jpg

The "CALIBRATION" entry is a simple SNR (aka C/N) Test with Gaussian Noise and NO Multipath. Linx/Micronas Tuner was 15.1 dB, Zenith was a less Sensitive 15.6 dB and Samsung was 15.2 dB. I have added a RED Column enumerating the MULTIPATH COMBINING GAIN for those test conditions that did NOT require HIGHER SNR's in order to successfully decode the Test Condition. *Up to 2.5 dB of Multipath Combining Gain was provided in some cases.  [Up to 3.0 dB "should" be possible with two EQUAL Strength Multipath Signals.]* Note that the 5th Gen Zenith was NOT the best in this respect (shhhh....Zenith spent a LOT of Time & Money Hyping the dramatic improvement of THEIR Tuner and Linx/Samsung did NOT, despite their Superior Performance....and unfortunately I have NO idea which STB/DTV actually used which chip other than for CECB's enumerated in my SIGNATURE Line....see at bottom of this post). [At BOTTOM, I included Appendix A Multipath Profile Details summarizing each of the Multipath Test Conditions used in CRC Tests....Zenith Appendix has the most "optional" tests.]

A short note re test procedure...although EXACT procedures may vary. In the Lab, while the Gaussian Noise Source is turned OFF, the desired Input Signal Strength is established going Into the Receiver [typically Mid Range....allowing for SOME Multipath Fading before signals reach Sensitivity Threshold....there is NO WAY to Receive a Fading Signal when it's AVERAGE Signal Level is barely above NO-FADING Sensitivity point...hence the need to have 10-20 dB FADE MARGIN when analyzing TVFool Reports]. The Input Signal is then turned OFF and Gaussian Noise Source going into S+N Summer turned ON...and adjusted so that it has SAME Signal Level going into the Receiver. [I would do this with 1 dB Step RF Attenuator set to ZERO.] With BOTH Signal and Noise Sources turned ON, the Noise Step RF Attenuator is increased until signal is Reacquired....and repeat a few times...this is C/N enumerated in the below tables.


----------



## holl_ands

*UPDATES re ATSC FIELD ENSEMBLE TESTING:*

1) Over 10 years ago, the FCC was gathering info re revisions to the SHVERA Rules (Satellite Home Viewer Extension and Reauthorization Act) that allowed SAT System owners who could "*somehow*" prove that they could NOT receive Major Networks via OTA Antenna and HENCE should be allowed to view the NYC or LA Network SAT Feeds instead. Lots of info and arguments were offered on this subject, incl. needed improvements to the Longley-Rice Propagation Prediction Program ad nauseum. On 17Jun2005, ATI Technologies (later bought out by AMD) submitted fol. comments to FCC. It states that at that time ATI had provided and continued to provide the MOST ATSC Decoder Chips currently in use in DTV STB/DVR/DTV's and hence was well suited for providing info on the DRAMATIC improvement in Multipath Performance, as evidenced by the performance of their LATEST Chips (THEATER & XILLEON series) vs their older chips (incl. very popular 3rd Gen NXT2002 thru NXT2004). In 2005, the newer chips could successfully decode [FCC allowed a "few" errors] 37 and 39 out of the 50 [47 actually viable] A/74 OTA Ensemble Captures:
https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/6517693762.pdf

2) A/74 OTA Ensemble Capture Performance Chart in my earlier Post [Figure 3-3 on pg 51 of 202] came from fol. CECB Test. Also note that this is probably the ONLY test that compares SINGLE CONVERSION TUNERS (i.e. Super-Hetereodyne with Voltage Tunable Input Band Pass Filter) versus DOUBLE-CONVERSION TUNERS (i.e. less expensive and hence more popular today with so-called "Silicon Tuner" that has NO Input BPF and First Mixer is to a VERY High Frequency and then DOWN to "normal" IF Frequency Range (or to Baseband). For Example, see Fig 4-17 thru 4-21, where Single-Conversion Tuner tolerated "TABOO" [i.e N+/2 or MORE, BEYOND Adjacent Channel Interference] by about 10 dB (median comparison) better than the Double-Conversion Tuner:
https://transition.fcc.gov/oet/info/documents/reports/9TR1003-ConverterBoxTestReport.pdf
[GEE...wouldn't it be GREAT if STB/DVR/DTV mfrs actually published meaningful SPECS for their Tuners????]
[AND....SOMEONE conduct some meaningful tests.....like OET and CRC tests...last conducted over 10-years ago...]


----------



## tripelo

Larry Kenney said:


> I thought I'd share the results I get with my collection of antennas. I have six sets of antennas on my roof: 91XG/10 element yagi ...


Interesting group of antennas.

What exactly is a 91xg/10?



> ...With all of them, I find that just a slight change in direction can make all the difference in signal quality. As little as 5 degrees can make a difference between a perfect signal and too much multipath to produce a signal...


Interesting observation and quite pertinent to the current discussion. 



> I live 3/4 mile from Sutro Tower... [snipped location and antenna info]...the antenna used and the direction makes surprising differences.


Good info helps one appreciate your reception situation.

Complex.


----------



## SFischer1

tripelo said:


> Interesting group of antennas.
> ...
> 
> Good info helps one appreciate your reception situation.
> 
> Complex.





Larry Kenney said:


> ...
> Larry


Larry, have you noticed any difference since the now tallest building west of the Mississippi has topped out or any of the tall buildings that have gone up in the recent years in San Francisco?

SHF


----------



## rabbit73

tripelo said:


> Interesting group of antennas.
> 
> What exactly is a 91xg/10?


Larry explains it in this link that is at the bottom of his post:

http://www.larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html


> Let's look at the individual antennas we're using. The antenna at the very top, above the rotor, is the Antennas Direct - Terrestrial Digital XG91 UHF antenna. Below it is the Antennacraft Y-10-7-13 yagi for high VHF. The rotor is a Yaesu G-450A that has a rotation range of 450 degrees and is able to withstand the very blustery winds here in San Francisco.


----------



## Larry Kenney

tripelo said:


> Interesting group of antennas.
> 
> What exactly is a 91xg/10?
> 
> Interesting observation and quite pertinent to the current discussion.
> 
> Good info helps one appreciate your reception situation.
> 
> Complex.


The "91xg/10" is the Antennas Direct XG91 UHF antenna connected together with the Antennacraft Y-10-7-13 ten element VHF yagi. The combination works great!

Check my antenna page on my website for pictures and descriptions of the various antennas: http://www.larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html

Yes, I have a complex arrangement, but I have fun playing with the various antennas and with swinging the antennas around on the rotor to see what I can find. Sorry to say, we don't see skip very often here on the west coast. It would be wonderful to experience all the skip they get back on the east coast and in the midwest. After several years of trying, my most distant station is just 175 miles away.

Larry


----------



## Larry Kenney

SFischer1 said:


> Larry, have you noticed any difference since the now tallest building west of the Mississippi has topped out or any of the tall buildings that have gone up in the recent years in San Francisco?
> 
> SHF


No, I haven't seen any changes over the years. The Salesforce Tower and the other new tall buildings haven't seemed to make any difference in signal strength or quality here. I think I'm high enough up, at 315 feet above sea level, that I don't see any reflections from them.

Larry


----------



## Larry Kenney

rabbit73 said:


> Larry explains it in this link that is at the bottom of his post:
> 
> http://www.larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html


Thanks for the help, Rabbit. I didn't see your post until after I answered him.

I like your web pages at www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html --- very interesting material!

Larry


----------



## ctdish

Larry Kenney said:


> The "91xg/10" is the Antennas Direct XG91 UHF antenna connected together with the Antennacraft Y-10-7-13 ten element VHF yagi. The combination works great!
> 
> Check my antenna page on my website for pictures and descriptions of the various antennas: http://www.larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html
> 
> Yes, I have a complex arrangement, but I have fun playing with the various antennas and with swinging the antennas around on the rotor to see what I can find. Sorry to say, we don't see skip very often here on the west coast. It would be wonderful to experience all the skip they get back on the east coast and in the midwest. After several years of trying, my most distant station is just 175 miles away.
> 
> Larry


Larry,
Be careful what you wish for. I live in CT where "local" channels are about 50 miles away and the same channels are used for more distant stations 75 to 115 miles from me. 3 to 4 evenings a week in the summer I lose many or even all channels. Although I have seen stations as far away as Virginia Beach but skip is mostly a PIA. It will not likely get better after the repack.
John


----------



## tripelo

*Antenna Height (AGL) Ground Effects on Signal Gain*



Calaveras said:


> It doesn't seem to me that this is very applicable in the real world except in a very few situations.. .


 It has been understood for many years that RF reflections at VHF and UHF frequencies and at small elevation angles can be specular (mirror-like).



> …For a typical outdoor antenna up 20-30 feet and the angle of the direct path signal slightly above 0 degrees, the point of reflection of the reflected signal will be far out in front of the receive antenna. That path is likely to be packed with ground clutter (buildings and vegetation) so that the ground reflected signal is highly attenuated...


At small angles, ground clutter has some effect but doesn’t often eliminate ground reflections. This is evident at industrial or military antenna test ranges. Significant efforts are expended and it takes a specialized form of clutter to significantly reduce ground reflections. 



> …I would think that in most situations the reflected signal will be nearly nonexistent...


Everyone probably enjoys thinking certain things. 

On the plus side, a ground reflection can be helpful. For horizontal polarized signals, ground reflection is a good way to increase signal gain at low angles by on average something approaching 6 dB or more relative to free space antenna gain. If the signal arrival angle is low or located in a deep minima, and if the original antenna height is also low, raising the antenna until the main lobe is centered on signal path can result in more than 6 dB gain. (see attached images)



> …We tell people seeking antenna advice all the time to get your antenna up as high as possible to minimize ground clutter attenuation. Raising the antenna will not reduce the reflected signal attenuation...


Raising antenna above nearby obstacles almost certainly helps. In addition, raising an antenna can increase the signal gain realized from an antenna by an appreciable amount at low elevation angles. Raising an antenna can also move vertical pattern minimas to different locations (attached images).



> …The example that rabbit73 gave with a low antenna located on the shore of a lake is probably one of the exceptions. A low antenna has a relatively close reflection point and has no ground clutter attenuation. There are very few OTA viewers with this situation…


Image below: Free Space Model of Antennacraft Y5-7-13 
























Image below: Antennacraft Y5-7-13 modeled at 15 & 30 ft (Elevation Pattern). Red marker set at 1 degree above horizon shows gain at that angle.
















Image below: Antennacraft Y5-7-13 modeled at 15 & 30 ft (Elevation Pattern). Red marker set at angle of Maximum Gain (showing gain and angle).















Image below: Antennacraft Y5-7-13 modeled at 15 & 30 ft (overlaid Elevation Patterns). Red represents antenna height of 30 ft, blue represents 15 ft. height.





















Table: Summary of some gain and angle combinations.



















Raising antenna significantly increases gain for the lowest angle. Changes in antenna height move the angle location of the minimas (low gain locations).

The effects are frequency sensitive. All data shown were cal;ulated at 200 MHz.

Realizing that antenna modeling has many limitations and that real world results often differ from simulation results.

In the real world:



Minimas (nulls) will not be as deep.
Maximas (gain increased will be less, but may approach simulation results.
Angle location of minimas & maximas will be close to that of simulation (within constraints of accurate signal ground determination).
 

These effects shown above at VHF are present at UHF.as well.

Some measurements to support this effect were performed in a suburban-urban-suburban area. 

Gain vs Height (AGL)


All elevations AGL were line-of-sight to the towers approximately 30 miles distant.

In those measurements, the city of Dallas is roughly centered in-line between the transmitting antennas and the receiver antenna.

Layering effects are shown in these measurements:

Individual Channel Gain Variation vs. Height 

In some instances the gain variation is ~6 dB within a foot or so AGL.

.


----------



## tripelo

*Antenna Elevation Patterns Above Ground (AGL)*



holl_ands said:


> ...Some Antennnas [esp Yagi's] have very well behaved Azimuth + Elevation Patterns, with NO Actual NULLS except OVERHEAD....or perhaps ONLY on the Higher Channels.



All antennas have minima (nulls) & maxima in elevation pattern as a result of ground reflections, when mounted at practical heights. (See example Yagi Y5-7-13 and reference links in previous post)

The examples you have cited show free space patterns. 

Effects of antenna height on antenna elevation patterns can be explored in simulation by running NEC models with simulated ground.

.


----------



## Calaveras

tripelo said:


> In the real world:
> 
> 
> 
> Minimas (nulls) will not be as deep.
> Maximas (gain increased will be less, but may approach simulation results.
> Angle location of minimas & maximas will be close to that of simulation (within constraints of accurate signal ground determination).
> 
> 
> These effects shown above at VHF are present at UHF.as well.
> 
> Some measurements to support this effect were performed in a suburban-urban-suburban area.
> 
> Gain vs Height (AGL)
> 
> 
> All elevations AGL were line-of-sight to the towers approximately 30 miles distant.
> 
> In those measurements, the city of Dallas is roughly centered in-line between the transmitting antennas and the receiver antenna.
> 
> Layering effects are shown in these measurements:
> 
> Individual Channel Gain Variation vs. Height
> 
> In some instances the gain variation is ~6 dB within a foot or so AGL.
> 
> .



None of your images display. I get this error:

"Invalid Attachment specified."


If I just look at the graph of the average of 27 UHF stations I'd simply conclude that raising the antenna cleared more ground clutter so the signal strength went up. Plateaus can easily be explained by no change in the ground clutter for a small change in elevation. Signals continued up when another obstacle was cleared. At 30 miles it's pretty hard to tell when the signals are actually LOS. My definition of LOS is you could see the towers if you looked through a telescope mounted where the antenna is. If I saw deep nulls and sharp peaks in your graph I'd probably agree with you. Right now it looks to me that you went looking for evidence of ground reflections and fit the explanation to the data (conformation bias) when a simpler explanation fits better. I'd say the data at best is inconclusive.

I'm not saying that there's no such thing as ground reflections. Of course there are. I'm saying that in most situations it's not an issue and tilting the antenna a few degrees isn't going to do anything. In the few case where it does something it's likely we don't know exactly what's happening because we don't have complete knowledge.


----------



## tripelo

*Visual & RF Line-of-Sight*



Calaveras said:


> None of your images display. I get this error:
> 
> "Invalid Attachment specified."


Thanks for the 'heads-up'.

It appears they were lost from AVS image manager.

Hopefully, the lost images are restored.




> ...My definition of LOS is you could see the towers if you looked through a telescope mounted where the antenna is...


Can see the tower lights in evening from the top of the house.


Dallas skyline, about half way & much shorter than towers, is visible in day (image below).












Another definition of RF LOS involves 4/3 earth radius, that's a bit further than straight line or visual*.



> ... Right now it looks to me that you went looking for evidence of ground reflections and fit the explanation to the data (conformation bias) when a simpler explanation fits better.


The measurements were made some time ago for another purpose (although it was related).



> ...I'd say the data at best is inconclusive...


One can say what free speech allows.



> ...we don't have complete knowledge...


Agreed.

.


----------



## tripelo

*8VSB Degraded Sensitivity in Presence of Echos*



holl_ands said:


> …Unfortunately, this TIME DIVERSITY Combining Gain is very rarely MEASURED....


 Yes, very rare, perhaps nonexistent.




> …except in the fol. Australian Test Report of ATSC vs COFDM …http://happy.emu.id.au/lab/rep/rep/9801/9801_001.htm…





> …*Table 3.5.1 - Summary of DTTB C/N Thresholds* … Try to ignore the SNR Threshhold measurements trying to push ATSC through the 7 MHz Transmitter. In the *Test Rig (6 MHz), ATSC C/N = 15.1 dB*:
> http://happy.emu.id.au/lab/rep/rep/9801/9801_035.htm#s3p5…


A 6 MHz system measured in a 7 MHz bandwidth test bed will appear more sensitive than reality because the 6MHz system rejects a bandwidth of noise that occupies 1 MHz. This is why the approximately 0.7 dB correction should be applied to measured results. 

However, it was apparently only applied to the first chart reference, possibly to show the 8VSB system was functioning properly.




> …BTW: If you compare Spectral Charts, you can clearly see that ATSC is operating in 6 MHz mode, whereas COFDM is in 7 MHz mode.


 Yes.



> …*Table 3.8.5 - 8-VSB Link Echo Levels* …Results: *C/N = 14.4 to 14.5 dB....a 0.7 to 0.6 dB IMPROVEMENT*.
> http://happy.emu.id.au/lab/rep/rep/9801/9801_038.htm#s3p8…


The graphs in the above referenced report may help explain the unusual sensitivity in that particular table.













The above graph (Figure 3.9.1) shows that even with almost negligible the Echo power (-25 dB), the 8VSB system achieves a sensitivity requiring less than 15 dB C/N (clearly in the 14 dB range). 

What accounts for this?

The obvious explanation is they are presenting measured data for comparison purposes and the 0.7 dB bandwidth correction (mentioned earlier) has not been applied to the data.

Another obviously important point shown in this chart is that almost any Echo degrades sensitivity and an 8VSB system reaches a sudden onset of failure if the Echo reaches a level of about 5 dB below desired carrier. As echo power increases, almost no amount of carrier power (C/N)can overcome such echos.














This graph (Figure 3.9.4) separates out the 8VSB results and shows various pre and post echo time advance or delays. 

Again, the above graph shows artificial sensitivity below 15 dB, and illustrates the devastating effect of echos on required C/N sensitivity levels.

.


----------



## holl_ands

The AUSSIE REPORT clearly has a problem with *TEST REPEATABILITY.*

On pg36, in *Table 3.5.1 - Summary of DTTB C/N Thresholds *they made various measurements on the progression of the COFDM 7 MHz Transmitter, culminating in the TEST RIG END (7 MHz) having a measured Threshold of between *C/N = 19.4 and 19.6 dB* "during the majority of the measurement program", i.e. 64QAM, 2/3 Rate Code, 1/8 Guard Time. [And ATSC Threshold was exactly C/N = 15.1 dB.]

On pg39, in *Table **3.7.1 - Spot Measurements of System Parameters*, they CLAIM that they made measurements for numerous COFDM Data Rate Modes as well as ATSC [although I suspect they MAY have simply reproduced a table they obtained from somewhere else]. For 64QAM, 2/3 Rate Code they list a *DIFFERENT *number: *C/N = 19.1 dB* [Longer Guard Times make no difference in C/N....it only reduces the available User Data Rate].

On pg42, in *Table **3.8.1** - COFDM Coax Echo Levels for Various Echo Delays*, they made various measurements of COFDM with Single Static Echo Test Conditions. For 7.48 us Pre-Echo and 7.48 us Post-Echo Test Conditions, after doing some additional Test Cases, they decided to do some RE-RUNS, finding *C/N = 19.3 to 19.5 dB* for 7.48 us Pre-Echo Threshold and *C/N = 19.8 to 20.4 dB* for 7.48 us Post-Echo Threshold....the latter being well outside the 19.4 to 19.6 dB range claimed on pg36.

Clearly BLATANT Examples of their *TEST REPEATABILITY PROBLEM.*

========================================================
BTW: Other possible sources of Errors in ATSC measurements: 

1) If the same "7 MHz" Bandwidth Filter was used when measuring C/N for ATSC the C/N numbers COULD be artificially LOWER by about 10*log(6 MHz/7 MHz) = 0.7 dB. [Actual COFDM and ATSC Bandwidths are a bit less than the "nominal" values, but since we are calculating a RATIO, this difference is negligible.]

2) If the VOLTAGE PEAKS coming out of the Noise Source are CLIPPED, the Measured BER COULD be significantly LOWER than the ACTUAL BER, requiring the Operator to dial in a bit MORE NOISE to reach the desired Pass/Fail BER Criteria, thereby resulting in a LOWER C/N than Actual. [Which is why I always used Noise Sources based on REAL Physical Processes, rather than a SYNTHESIZED Noise Source....and made sure that if using an AMPLIFIER, there was PLENTY of Head Room to accurately PASS those Noise Spikes WITHOUT Clipping.]

========================================================
Three CRC Prototype ATSC Tuner Test Reports still showed *up to 2.5 dB of MULTIPATH COMBINING GAIN.*


----------



## holl_ands

LOS Path Loss Equation ONLY depends on Frequency and Distance.....there is NO Dependence on Receiver Antenna Height if you are truly within LOS....but BEWARE, Terrain or Buildings coming CLOSE to [and esp. IN] the "FRESNEL ZONE" will INCREASE Path Loss:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line-of-sight_propagation
http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/propagation/path-loss/free-space-formula-equation.php
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_zone [Wiki Article re Fresnel Zone]

You SHOULD be able to test this by entering different Antenna Heights for clearly LOS Paths in TVFool. 

This effect can be seen in BOTH of the above cited TVFool weblinks, where there was NO MORE Antenna Height Gain above a particular Height [when ensured a clearly LOS Path]:
http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php?p=46709&postcount=82
http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php?p=46528&postcount=79


=========================================================
*Speaking of Antenna Height Gain*....fol. Signal Strength Study for Manila Metro Area (in Phillipines) shows "typical" variability wrt Range and Antenna Height. The Variability Distribution Curves on pg 8 & 10 (of 13 total) may be of interest:
http://www.jpier.org/PIERC/pierc29/12.12032602.pdf

* Note that NEITHER of these Studies included ATTIC or INDOOR Losses*

And fol. *UK BBC Research Dept. Report 1991/11* is for a MUCH LARGER NUMBER of Samples:
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1991-11.pdf

They drove around various Test Locations to average out "Standing Waves" (signal varying with Height and Location due to Multipath Patterns) and thereby collected data at various Antenna Heights above Average Local Terrain. Note that CLUTTER LOSS was identified as a SIGNIFICANT factor at UHF (up to about 6 dB of additional Loss at UHF and much less at VHF Freqs]...which is NOT included in the CCIR (now ITU) VHF/UHF Propagation Prediction LOOK-UP CHARTS. [Clutter Loss depends on smoothness of Terrain and Roof Tops in vicinity of RX Antenna.] Note that although FCC OET-69 includes some CLUTTER LOSS estimates that SHOULD be applied to Longley-Rice Results, as I recall, Andy.S.Lee had NOT included them in the TVFool Calculations:
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1991-11.pdf

*Antenna Height Gain/Loss Relative to 10-m (30-ft) Height:*


----------



## tripelo

*8VSB - Ostensible Echo Enhanced Tuner Sensitivity*



holl_ands said:


> … In 2002 thru 2005, CRC [Communications Research Center, Canada] tested (4th Gen) Linx/Micronas, (5th Gen) Zenith and (5th Gen) Samsung PROTOTYPE ATSC Tuners, where the *Multipath Test Results using BRAZIL-A thru E* are provided below…


The sensitivity was tested in the presence of various power levels of the Ensembles (echos).



> … I have added a RED Column enumerating the MULTIPATH COMBINING GAIN for those test conditions that did NOT require HIGHER SNR's in order to successfully decode the Test Condition. *Up to 2.5 dB of Multipath Combining Gain was provided in some cases. [Up to 3.0 dB "should" be possible with two EQUAL Strength Multipath Signals.] …*


The five Images below were extracted from Holl_ands earlier post referenced above. According to Holl_ands they were extracted from the CRC document above.














holl_ands said:


> Three CRC Prototype ATSC Tuner Test Reports still showed *up to 2.5 dB of MULTIPATH COMBINING GAIN.*



An echo is a repeat of the original signal delayed or advanced in time. This is only slightly different than a ground reflection. It is well known that ground reflections can provide gain (sometimes combined with antenna gain, up to 6 dB or more).

The reflector an antenna also provides such an example.

It is not unreasonable to expect that laboratory conditions can exist such that the phase relationship of an echo will add and increase signal strength at an antenna, or before tuner input.

The extra signal (echo) does not have to be in perfect phase with the desired, several degrees out of phase can still result in additional signal gain (although less than maximum obtainable).

From analysis (available on request) of the data holl_ands provided, with high probability:

Four or more ensemble and multipath delay combinations contain signal energy that is in phase with the carrier such that, when combined with the carrier, they add to the carrier power, even before the signal processing/tuner. 

Again, this in-phase combination is similar to the result one could get from a reflection off an antenna element (reflector), or a ground bounce reflection.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A team reporting to the NAB and FCC commented on the unusual sensitivity in this report.





> *Engineering Statement of Meintel, Sgrignoli, & **Wallace
> Concerning: Measurement and Prediction of Digital Television Reception*
















NAB FCC Report above said:


> _CIN _values are less than the white Gaussian noise threshold value. This is due to the definition used at CRC for describing the multipath…





holl_ands said:


> …this TIME DIVERSITY Combining Gain is very rarely MEASURED....





holl_ands said:


> …I STILL can't find a Weblink...



.


----------



## JHBrandt

ctdish said:


> I have seen stations as far away as Virginia Beach but skip is mostly a PIA. It will not likely get better *after the repack.*
> John


I don't mean to hijack the thread but I'm curious, and this thread seems the most appropriate place to ask: has their been any discussion about rescaling or otherwise redesigning UHF antennas to optimize them for RF 14-36? Would it even be worth doing, either to improve gain within the TV band or to reduce gain in the soon-to-be LTE band? (Although I suppose a filter would be the most effective approach for the latter.)


----------



## rabbit73

> has their been any discussion about rescaling or otherwise redesigning UHF antennas to optimize them for RF 14-36?


Not that I know of, but it would make a significant difference at the low end of the UHF band.



> Would it even be worth doing


Yes, it would be worth doing as far as performance is concerned, but no US manufacturer is going to build or rescale an antenna unless they can make a profit on it.

When the UHF band was cut to 14-51, very few manufacturers rescaled. Antennas Direct rescaled a few of their antennas including the DB8 and called it the DB8e, but they didn't rescale the 91XG. The 91XG would be a winner in its class if it were rescaled for 14-36 and if there was no need for it above 36 in all areas where it would be sold.

Here is a comparison of the DB8e and the 91XG:


----------



## ADTech

Several things to note:

While the 91XG is among the favorites for a good many of folks around here, we sell so few of them compared to our other models that the expense of rescaling and retooling for it for the narrower band would probably never be recovered (which is why it wasn't done post 2009), much less make a it profitable product in the future (in my personal opinion). I have no idea what the boss is going to do regarding this, no decision has been made.

The transition is going to take at least three years in the US and longer in some areas of Canada. Any rescaled antenna sold before the year 2020 would be potentially sacrificing reception prematurely for any stations remaining active on 37-51. My suggestion is to kick back and wait for things to progress, there's plenty of time.

If anyone does want a UHF antenna that rather closely matches up with the future UHF channel band, one could always import a "Group A" Yagi antenna from the UK.


----------



## holl_ands

I just completed Re-Optimization Runs for *FF4 and FF6 WITHOUT Reflectors in Ch14-36* "Even Newer UHF Band" [will upload results in next few days...incl. comparison to less than Optimum simple Re-Scale]. Re-Optimizations for "Even Newer" UHF + Hi-VHF Bands are currently running [SWR isn't THAT much higher than desired range...at least in versions with NO Reflector]. FF4 [NO Refl] improved 1.1 dB on 470 MHz [9.8 to 10.9 dBi] and 1.5 dB on 608 MHz [11.2 to 12.7 dBi]....which will be in same ballpark of improvement after adding the Double Angle Reflector.

Now that I know how much BIGGER they are, the next step is to Re-Optimize AGAIN with suitably BIGGER Double Angle Reflectors, including variables for the Bowtie-To-Reflector Separation and Reflector "Bend" Angle. Last time I did these runs it took several days per Run....and I may or may not need MULTIPLE Runs per Design [also, for the Dual Band, UHF+Hi-VHF variant, I want to find the "best" WIDTH for BOTH Bands]. I don't think I'll need to try LOTS of different Reflector Heights this time....so maybe I'll be done with at least the UHF-Only version by the end of April.....

MEANWHILE, I've tried several Lo-VHF Re-Optimizations [for Ch2-6, Ch2-6+FM, Ch2-6+Ch7-13, and Ch2-6+FM+Ch7-13] for various Antenna Types [with NO Reflector to begin with], looking for something Shorter than a 2-Story House!!!!! So Far, the 2-Bay Bowtie appears to be in the lead.....and I've wasted a LOT of computer time on the Alternatives....runs are complete, so should upload Results "any day now". These tend to run in less than a day each and leave enough processor time free to run TWO at the same time on any of my 3 computers [unlike Screen Grid Reflector types that hog ALL of the 12 Hyper-Threads]. And I REALLY need to take a look at a 4th PC Tower that my [now MACBOOK] son passed on to me to see what else it needs to help heat up the back room.

I also have a Re-Optimization running for the HHH (Holl_ands Horizontal Harness) & other Mods to improve Hi-VHF for the OLD CM4228 8-Bay Bowtie, just as I did for new CM4228HD.....

Summary of Lo-VHF Designs can be found here:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...tenna-suggestions-revisited.html#post51917897

==========================================================
There is LOTS of Time Left to Re-Optimize a BUNCH of other Antennas....for the MOST part, Ch38-51 won't even BEGIN to move until 14Sep2018 and you'll STILL need coverage for that band for LPTV and Repeaters until the Phone Companies actually decide to BEGIN OPERATIONS....which might be early 2019...or even 2020????

Note that Phase1 is Toledo, OH [NOT incl. Detroit]....and a bunch of small DMA's:
https://www.rabbitears.info/phasemap.php?maptype=s&channel=52&phase=1

Phase 1 is scheduled to *Begin Testing on 14Sep2018** and completion by 30Nov2018*....for more details see my fol. post:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...elevision-spectrum-repack-2.html#post52311633

FYI: My SOCAL Area [Phase 2] is scheduled to *Begin Testing on 1Dec2018 **and completion by 12Apr2019* and will be one of the first truly BIG DMA's to suffer an upheaval....

PS: I'm struggling trying to find a SHORT Term to describe the "Even Newer UHF Band"....cuz we've already been using "New UHF Band" to describe current Ch14-51 coverage. I'm not all that enthusiastic about "500 MHz Band" or even "Ch14-36 Band"....any suggestions?????


----------



## Ken.F

holl_ands said:


> FYI: My SOCAL Area [Phase 2] is scheduled to *Begin Testing on 1Dec2018 *and completion by 30Nov2018.


 Scheduled completion is the day before testing begins? 



> PS: I'm struggling trying to find a SHORT Term to describe the "Even Newer UHF Band"....cuz we've already been using "New UHF Band" to describe current Ch14-51 coverage. I'm not all that enthusiastic about "500 MHz Band" or even "Ch14-36 Band"....any suggestions?????


"2019 UHF Band"?


----------



## holl_ands

Thnx for finding my Copy/Paste Error....Fixed Completion dates for both Phase 1 and Phase 2....


----------



## kram1

*RCA ANT751R Antenna Motor*

I'm looking to add a Rotating motor to my RCA ANT751R Antenna setup 

Does anyone know of any descent options they could point me to please ?


----------



## Larry Kenney

kram1 said:


> I'm looking to add a Rotating motor to my RCA ANT751R Antenna setup
> 
> Does anyone know of any descent options they could point me to please ?


The Channel Master CM 9521A rotor is a good one and it has memory slots so that you can save rotor positions. The only disadvantage is that it's not good in really windy areas. I had one that worked great until our blustery summer winds broke something and it would no longer turn. I had to upgrade to a $250 Yaesu rotor. Here's more information: 
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.as...crosspromo&utm_medium=cart&utm_source=inhouse

Larry


----------



## SFischer1

kram1 said:


> I'm looking to add a Rotating motor to my RCA ANT751R Antenna setup
> 
> Does anyone know of any descent options they could point me to please ?


You will need some wood, a flat board to a round object to be rotated by the rotor. 

Classic problem of putting a wide 2" x 4" peg into a round hole. The round part may be metal or wood with a heavy wire to the rotor mast for lighting protection.

SHF


----------



## kram1

Thanks for the reply's 
looking for some less expensive options ddon't think it really makes sense to spend over $100 for just a motor to pair with a $35 antenna 

other wise I might as well just buy this below setup again comes with basically the same antenna I already have 

https://www.amazon.com/1byone-Extremely-Performance-Included-Mounting/dp/B00RCOEL0C?tag=vs-avsforum-convert-20

any other options ?


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## ProjectSHO89

You can either go cheap (and do it over and over because the cheap junk doesn't hold up) or you can do it right.


----------



## lohertz

ProjectSHO89 said:


> You can either go cheap (and do it over and over because the cheap junk doesn't hold up) or you can do it right.




He's right. There are a plethora of antennas for less than$50. Why pay more for a rotor when you can just add another antenna. Makes sense to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wildwillie6

*Why not just add another antenna?*



lohertz said:


> There are a plethora of antennas for less than $50. Why pay more for a rotor when you can just add another antenna?


In my experience there are two answers to that question:

1. Because you have to go up on the roof to re-aim if you don't have a rotator, and on some roofs that's a fairly hazardous chore.

2. Because it's hard to combine signals from multiple antennas (not impossible, just hard, especially for some signal situations).

Others will have different views, I'm sure.


----------



## rabbit73

kram1 said:


> I'm looking to add a Rotating motor to my RCA ANT751R Antenna setup
> 
> Does anyone know of any descent options they could point me to please ?


Did you buy the RCA ANT751R? Your photo shows the ANT7511 that has fewer elements.





































CAUTION, there is a new version being sold, and they are using the photo of the original ANT751 on the boxes AND in the ads; very misleading.

RCA Suburban Mini Yagi Digital Outdoor Antenna with Mast, now model ANT7511

Differences:

1. The mast clamp is now ahead of the rear element
2. There is only one VHF director
3. The 4 shorting stubs have been replaced with 2 small-diameter wires, each 5-1/2" long
4. The Tetrapole has been replaced with a long dipole driven element; 6-1/2" long on each side
5. The UHF director pair in front of the Tetrapole has been replaced with a conventional director, for a total of 3 directors, each 7" long

The UPC on my ANT751R box is 0 44476 06452 4. Unfortunately, the UPC bar code on the short 7511 box is the same.

So, I guess the most reliable indicator is the box length, because the boom for the 7511 comes in two pieces, but the boom for the longer 751R is in one piece.


----------



## kram1

I still have the same antenna the ANT7511 I just extended it up a little bit with a pvc pipe i had laying around all my channels come in great like 100% with the exception of just 2 that seem to break up a little bit every now and then just need a little fine tuning with a rotor motor is all


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## CHASLS2

Mine does not have the R on it. But looks the same. It is doing a pretty good job since i am 43 miles away from the towers.


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## ProjectSHO89

> Mine does not have the R on it. But looks the same.


Unless you bought it 5+ years ago, you have the 751R. I forget exactly when RCA moved from the original 751 to the751R designation. The newest replacement model, the 7511 which started appearing over this winter, is very similar but slightly different from its predecessor as rabbit73 already highlighted.


----------



## holl_ands

As shown above, the BOOM on the Original ANT-751 8-El Log-Yagi extended out the back a few inches, so that the J-Pole Mount could be attached using a C-Clamp.

The ANT-7511 7-El Log-Yagi is clearly a DIFFERENT Antenna, with 3 vice 4 Hi-VHF Elements, a UHF Section that is no longer the same as W-G HD7000....and NO Rear Boom Extension.
The lack of a Rear Boom Extension [which COULD have also included a fourth Hi-VHF Reflector Element] was a VERY POOR CHOICE by whomever "Designed" the new mount, locating it smack dab in the MIDDLE of the Cross-Over Feedlines!!!!
I bet the sheer SIZE of the new Mounting Hardware is degrading the SWR....unfortunately, I think pricey NEC4 Engine is needed to actually ANALYZE the difference.....

If I had one, I would investigate adding a Rear Boom Extension so it could be mounted same way as the Original ANT-751: Insert a Tube INSIDE existing Boom (preferably ROUND so it can be Squeezed to Fit) and secure with a pair of Bolts....secured with DOUBLE Nuts.

And if someone provides detailed MEASUREMENTS for ANT-7511...and PICTURES that ALSO show a RULER, I could TRY to let you know how it performs.....and the Optimum Dimensions for adding a REFLECTOR at the end of a suitably LONGER Rear Boom Extension...something that is MISSING from both versions....


----------



## CHASLS2

ProjectSHO89 said:


> Unless you bought it 5+ years ago, you have the 751R. I forget exactly when RCA moved from the original 751 to the751R designation. The newest replacement model, the 7511 which started appearing over this winter, is very similar but slightly different from its predecessor as rabbit73 already highlighted.


I bought mine about a month ago.


----------



## kram1

I'm still just simply looking for some not to expensive motor options is all ?


----------



## SFischer1

kram1 said:


> I'm still just simply looking for some not to expensive motor options is all ?


Any TV repair shops nearby? I got my very cheap rotor on a street in Sacramento that I have no idea why I drove down it and stopped at a TV repair shop.

Look at houses as you drive around for TV antennas that look bad or have the cable cut before it even hits the roof. (Common Sat install procedure.) If you think you can take the antenna and rotor down knock on the door.

SHF


----------



## holl_ands

I would guess that you aren't getting any responses re specific CHEAP Rotators because experienced users are VERY reluctant to recommend ANY of the CHEAP Rotators....and most of the Expensive TV Rotators [typ. over $100] have problems trying to rotate a FULL-SIZE TV Antenna, hence an even MORE Expensive AMATEUR RADIO Rotator is usually the "Go To" recommendation. [And MOST people would prefer a two or even three Antenna System.]

But since you only want to rotate the small ANT-7511, it looks you're pretty much on you own.
You might want to look at what is available in the $100-200 range by searching "TV Antenna Rotator" on www.pricegrabber.com as well as amazon.com and walmart.com.

IF you want something that is TRULY CHEAP and don't want something USED, you might want to look at the various under $50 CHEAP Antennas with Rotators and REPLACE their CHEAP Antenna (and probably also Amplifier) with your ANT-7511.....and be prepared to REPLACE the CHEAP Rotator from time to time....

It appears that MANY of the Antenna/Rotator offerings use an INTEGRATED Rotator/Amplifier/Antenna Module which is NOT readily modified for a different Antenna. 

Based on the Pictures, the fol. 1-by-one unit SEEMS to be suitable if a short piece of Metal Mast or PVC Tubing is used [whichever Diameter is appropriate] between the Rotator and the ANT7511. And even WITHOUT swapping in the ANT-7511, it should STILL be a useful non-Amplified Antenna, providing a bit more UHF Gain than ANT-7511, but a bit LOWER Hi-VHF Gain due to use of 2 vice 3 Hi-VHF Elements:
https://www.1byone.com/TV-Accessories/Outdoor-TV-Antenna/203NA-0003
https://www.amazon.com/1byone-Motorized-Rotation-Performance-Cable-Rotating/dp/B00KYKYLZQ

===================================================
BTW: Your earlier reported TVFool Results indicate that you have MANY VERY STRONG TV [and FM] Stations, so you should NOT use an AMPLIFIED Antenna....or Distribution Amplifier (unless you insert "sufficient" Attenuation on it's Input to prevent Overload Desensitization):
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=dfaf72007de500

===================================================
*LESS EXPENSIVE ALTERNATIVES:*

Since you have two groups of Hi-VHF/UHF Stations in nearly OPPOSITE Directions, I would recommend using an inexpensive, NON-Amplified BI-DIRECTIONAL Antenna....or a so-called "OMNI" Directional Antenna that is likely Bi-Directional [since Gain is well above 0 dbd = 2.2 dBi], which should be adequate to receive stations in TVFool "GREEN" Zone, such as fol: [I also have several simple DIY Projects that are inexpensive and/or provide HIGHER Gain, if desired.]

1) Channel Master CM-3000HD....since specs claim "5-8 dB min" Gain [and hence NOT a TRUE OMNI], it clearly is either BI-DIRECTIONAL (or Quad-Directional), so you'll need to rotate it to find the "best" direction when mounted:
https://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master-CM-3000HD-outdoor-Antenna/dp/B000BSKO84
BTW: Although I can believe 5-8 dBi Gain in UHF Band, I seriously doubt it provides more than about 2 dBi Gain in Hi-VHF Band....it's simply TOO SMALL.

2) Winegard PR-4400 (aka HD4400) 4-Bay Bowtie, AFTER the Reflector Rod Assembly is REPLACED by a unadorned piece of Tubing (to facilitate mounting), provides 7.5 to 10.1 dBi Gain (470-698 MHz) in UHF Band [SWR under 3.5] and 4.1 dBi in Hi-VHF Band [with Excessive SWR that MAY be a (solvable) Issue....but more likely is NOT a problem]:
https://www.summitsource.com/Winega...-Part-PR4400-With-50-FT-Coax-Cable-P8071.aspx
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibaydipoles/winegardhd4400norefl [4nec2 Performance Analysis]

NOTE: I carefully chose the W-G PR-4400/HD4400 since it STILL uses the conventional Cylindrical 300:75-ohm Transformer Balun which readily passes VHF signals....unlike nearly all MODERN [and more Expensive] "UHF-ONLY" Antennas that use a PCB Balun (Printed Circuit Board) which DEGRADES VHF. So, IF you chose to use an alternative 4-Bay Bowtie, you should either Drill Out the PCB Mounting Rivets and replace with a conventional Balun....or use separate A-D VHF Antenna Kit [about 2 dBi Hi-VHF Band Gain incl. Loss in VHF/UHF Combiner].

3) Use a PAIR of ANT-7511's [COULD be a Vertical Stack if house does not block either direction], pointed in Opposite Directions with standard RF Splitter/Combiner.....the Front/Back Ratio of each Antenna will suppress Multipath and Noise injection into the Opposite Antenna's Channels. To maintain high F/B Ratios, I would recommend at least 4-ft separation between them [could also be mounted on different sides of the house....coax lengths do NOT need to be equal].


----------



## jspENC

Stellar Labs VHF hi cartridge board is junk. A nearby lightning strike caused the cartridge to split open at the seams, put a hole in the top of the plastic and fried the board. I had to rig it up using twin lead to coax so that it would work again. I used the two nuts that held the cartridge board to the loop and I have perfect reception again. I've never had an antenna damaged from lightning. The antenna itself is fantastic, but the coax connection is the weak link.


----------



## holl_ands

Surely you don't EXPECT Preamps to survive a DIRECT Lightning Strike....clearly it was NOT simply "nearby"....

BTW: Even if an Antenna is properly grounding using a NEC Listed "Ground Block" [with unspecified Breakdown Voltage, probably several hundreds of volts], it doesn't provide very much protection to the Preamp and Tuner Electronics. Even WITHOUT a nearby Lightning Storm, high winds blowing across the Ungrounded Active Antenna Elements generates considerable of voltage via Static Electricity [same as shuffling shoes across a carpet]. I recommend screwing a Hollands SA-1F SIDACtor into the Ground Block, which has a specified Breakdown Voltage of 65-volts [earlier specs said 25-volts]:
http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/upload_file/Filters-Cable_Drop_Protection.pdf
I do NOT recommend using MOV type devices since they absorb energy by degrading some of the crystals...which in turn can significantly increase the Insertion Loss over time.

My earlier post re Protection against Static Electricity buildup and NEARBY Lightning Storm Protection (you can't protect against a DIRECT HIT...which can VAPORIZE Sensitive Electronics):
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/186...gh-attic-antenna-side-side-2.html#post1463911


----------



## rabbit73

You didn't say which model. If it is the 30-2475 or 30-2476, it doesn't have a preamp.

Then a balun would probably be the proper repair:


----------



## jspENC

I have a weather sensor on the mast (at the top, above the VHF hi model 30-2475)that was not affected If the strike was direct, it would be history. Yes I had an RCA preamp with the separate inputs, and it is fried as well. I lost one TV that it was hooked to also, while two others are fine. I figured if the strike was direct, everything would have been lost. I have had this happen before when I had Directv, and lost the receiver, but my antenna has never been hit. I have a Winegard HD-8800 UHF that was not affected mounted below the VHF. I also had 2 cable boxes fried, so I believe a nearby strike came through the CATV and killed my TV, and maybe made it's way to the antenna, or the antenna got indirect effects...

Rabbit,
I would have used a balun, but I did not have one handy, and the twin lead actually works well. I ran it down to the Winegard UHF and hooked it to the connection for the downlead. Signal is 100 on both VHF channels I have available.


----------



## tylerSC

jspENC said:


> Stellar Labs VHF hi cartridge board is junk. A nearby lightning strike caused the cartridge to split open at the seams, put a hole in the top of the plastic and fried the board. I had to rig it up using twin lead to coax so that it would work again. I used the two nuts that held the cartridge board to the loop and I have perfect reception again. I've never had an antenna damaged from lightning. The antenna itself is fantastic, but the coax connection is the weak link.


The Stellar Labs High VHF antennas are very well made with very good build quality. But a direct lightning strike would probably blow out the balun box on any antenna, including Winegard and Antennas Direct. I wonder if one of those Winegard balun boxes could be substituted, but not sure how it is connected.

And those High VHF antennas also get good UHF reception, but that of course may depend upon location.


----------



## jspENC

tylerSC said:


> The Stellar Labs High VHF antennas are very well made with very good build quality. But a direct lightning strike would probably blow out the balun box on any antenna, including Winegard and Antennas Direct. I wonder if one of those Winegard balun boxes could be substituted, but not sure how it is connected.
> 
> And those High VHF antennas also get good UHF reception, but that of course may depend upon location.


Hey Tyler,

I am still not sold that the antenna took a direct strike. All my coax is fine. When my dish took an indirect strike, the coax was blown apart under the house, so if it had taken a direct strike, my acurite weather meter would be dead, since it is on top of the mast. It is working perfectly. I am not going to worry about the balun box. The antenna is working perfectly the way it is right now. It is not picking up UHF however, without some break up. It is picking up a low power channel 21 that was not coming in before I merged it with the Winegard. I have this antenna at 28 ft above ground. I aimed the VHF at Raleigh, for the possibility of channel 11, (which is not showing up much) but even with it off the main towers to my north, they come in at 100% since the switch to twin lead, where before channel 10 came in much lower. I am leaving well enough alone with that. I did install a new RCA pre-amp this evening, and it is working just fine. I have a new Sharp 1080p with Roku on the way.


----------



## SFischer1

Question about antenna from http://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-lo...15-san-francisco-ca-ota-501.html#post52517809 



gone hiking said:


> For UHF directional, does this look like a good one?:
> http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/30-2370


To me it does, comments from others?

SHF


----------



## Primestar31

SFischer1 said:


> Question about antenna from http://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-lo...15-san-francisco-ca-ota-501.html#post52517809
> 
> 
> 
> To me it does, comments from others?
> 
> SHF


That's the HDB91X antenna, which is a clone of the 91XG. Very good antenna, and available for under $40 often on sale. I have two up and running right now, and one in the box waiting...


----------



## lifespeed

SFischer1 said:


> Question about antenna from http://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-lo...15-san-francisco-ca-ota-501.html#post52517809
> 
> 
> 
> To me it does, comments from others?
> 
> SHF


It looks a lot like a 91XG from Antennas Direct, although at a lower price. Most folks have had excellent results with this antenna, myself included. I bought a 91XG on Amazon for $70, so you don't have to pay list. Still not as cheap as the MCM, but for all the installation trouble and other components involved you probably want a decent product. Is the balun design different? Who knows, can't tell from a picture.


----------



## Larry Kenney

Looks like the 91XG, but it sure is cheaper in price. I wonder how the quality compares. Has anyone compared the two?


----------



## lifespeed

Primestar31 said:


> That's the HDB91X antenna, which is a clone of the 91XG. Very good antenna, and available for under $40 often on sale. I have two up and running right now, and one in the box waiting...


How are you configuring them, pointed at separate transmitters? RF combining, switches or separate tuners?


----------



## Primestar31

lifespeed said:


> How are you configuring them, pointed at separate transmitters? RF combining, switches or separate tuners?


In my case, I have a UHF flamethrower station 35 miles away South-East on RF22 (WNEM), that is 1 *MEGA*-watt, and throws *874kW*'s my way! It's located about 200 yards away from another tower broadcasting on RF46 (WBSF), that broadcasts a total power of only 70kW's, yet only throws *31*kW's my way. I have to use a Jan Jenca Jointenna device for RF46 with a dedicated HDB91x (91xg clone) *aimed right at it*, to keep it from breaking up. If I don't, RF22 (WNEM) swamps it out.

Then at the opposite farthest end of my local station bearings, there's a station on RF16 (WSMH) pushing only 29.9kW's my way, located right next to a station on RF48 (WAQP) pushing 841kW's!

So, I have one HDB91x dedicated and aimed at RF46 with a Jan Jenca Jointenna, then I have a *second* HDB91x aimed at the RF16 station (WSMH), which is my "all (UHF) channels EXCEPT channel RF46" antenna on that input of the Jointenna device. The combined output of the Jointenna goes into a Kitztech KT-200-COAX preamp, then into the UHF side of a Radio Shack UVSJ that's power-pass on the UHF side. 

So, the two UHF HDB91x antenna's are aimed at the _weakest stations_ in my arc, yet on the "all (UHF) channels EXCEPT RF46" HDB91x, it not only gets full signal on my other weak station in my receivable arc (RF16), BUT, the other stations are still powerful enough that they come in fine with the antenna aimed as it is.

By the way, I also have a third High band VHF only antenna (AC Y10-7-13) aimed at and picking up RF12 (WJRT) which is my only VHF station. That goes into the VHF side of a UVSJ, and is not amplified at all.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e6a43980350957


----------



## gone hiking

Primestar31 said:


> That's the HDB91X antenna, which is a clone of the 91XG. Very good antenna, and available for under $40 often on sale. I have two up and running right now, and one in the box waiting...


How long have you been using it? Just wondering about long-term reliability.


----------



## Primestar31

gone hiking said:


> How long have you been using it? Just wondering about long-term reliability.


Using the HDB91x's, or this configuration of them? This configuration is about 1.5 years old, but moved to a new house where it used to have to be much higher up for the same signal levels. It's at 25 feet now, and used to be over 40ft at the previous house.

I've been using the HDB91x's for about 4 or so years and have had no issues with them. I previously had a regular 91XG, but it didn't survive a couple Winters without the plastic getting brittle and breaking.


----------



## gone hiking

Primestar31 said:


> Using the HDB91x's, or this configuration of them?


How long you had the antenna in use. 4 years sounds good. Thanks.


----------



## lifespeed

Primestar31 said:


> In my case, I have a UHF flamethrower station 35 miles away South-East on RF22 (WNEM), that is 1 *MEGA*-watt, and throws *874kW*'s my way! It's located about 200 yards away from another tower broadcasting on RF46 (WBSF), that broadcasts a total power of only 70kW's, yet only throws *31*kW's my way. I have to use a Jan Jenca Jointenna device for RF46 with a dedicated HDB91x (91xg clone) *aimed right at it*, to keep it from breaking up. If I don't, RF22 (WNEM) swamps it out.


Interesting situation, sounds like you've been able to make it work well with the Jointennas and directional antennae. I ended up going with dedicated network tuners (Silicondust HDHR4-2US) per antenna to combine my signals in the digital domain, no RF interactions and transparent to the user. But this setup presumes you're using a computer DVR front end instead of the tuner in your TV, which may not be so unusual these days.


----------



## Primestar31

lifespeed said:


> Interesting situation, sounds like you've been able to make it work well with the Jointennas and directional antennae. I ended up going with dedicated network tuners (Silicondust HDHR4-2US) per antenna to combine my signals in the digital domain, no RF interactions and transparent to the user. But this setup presumes you're using a computer DVR front end instead of the tuner in your TV, which may not be so unusual these days.


I'm setup this way for using a Tivo Roamio basic, so couldn't go with a coax switch, rotor motor, or network tuners. Luckily the towers I need to aim at are all within about a 47 degree arc from East to South-East. I am dealing with a tree situation also, so that's why I have to also use the Kitztech preamp for uhf reception. The KT-200-Coax brings up the weaker stations a bit (and to compensate for the Jointenna loss), without overloading on the blowtorch stations.


----------



## holl_ands

That's a very good price for a fairly good UHF Yagi Antenna.....but it has significant Loss on Lower Channels.
8-Bay Bowtie Antenna (e.g. DB-8e, CM4228+HHH-Mod or HDB-8x) has MUCH more Gain on Lower Channels:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=hdb8x


----------



## ADTech

Primestar31 said:


> .... I previously had a regular 91XG, but it didn't survive a couple Winters without the plastic getting brittle and breaking.


I find that a bit surprising as I'm not aware of any similar concerns or complaints. In my personal experience, I had a "stretched" 91XG up on my previous home for 7 years. The only failure it ever suffered was from getting its tail end swatted by a nearby tree in a windstorm a few years back that required a new rear boom section as a replacement. We do get an occasional warranty call for directors that have been knocked off by hail or an occasional balun enclosure with water ingress, but that's about it. I can't recall a single claim for what you've described in the almost 9 years I've been here so I'd certainly be interested in your situation if you still have your antenna.

Just a reminder to all readers, all Antennas Direct antennas do come with a LIFETIME warranty, so don't overlook that value. We also have customer service personnel working seven days a week to handle inbound customer inquiries.


----------



## Primestar31

It was one of the original XG-91's, back at the end of the 1980's. I bought it mail order from an ad in either Popular Electronic's or Radio Electronics. I don't remember the name of the company I got it from anymore. It lasted less than 3 years, (it sagged in the middle also) at the top of a 56' tower.

This one had directors made of aluminum tubing in X's (pretty short ones), not the present stamped type ones.

I no longer have it, or what was left of it.


----------



## tylerSC

Antennas Direct has new versions of their Clearstream antennas, including the Clearstream 2MAX now sold at Walmart for $79. It looks like it is easier to assemble, and may now be more omnidirectional without the reflector screen. It also includes the VHF dipole. A 4MAX version is reportedly coming in June.


----------



## ADTech

Primestar31 said:


> It was one of the original XG-91's, back at the end of the 1980's. I bought it mail order from an ad in either Popular Electronic's or Radio Electronics. I don't remember the name of the company I got it from anymore. It lasted less than 3 years, (it sagged in the middle also) at the top of a 56' tower.
> 
> This one had directors made of aluminum tubing in X's (pretty short ones), not the present stamped type ones.
> 
> I no longer have it, or what was left of it.


Ah, so that wasn't one of our 91XG antennas after all. Antennas Direct first sold the 91XG around the year 2005 or so.

That explains a lot...


----------



## ADTech

tylerSC said:


> Antennas Direct has new versions of their Clearstream antennas, including the Clearstream 2MAX now sold at Walmart for $79. It looks like it is easier to assemble, and may now be more omnidirectional without the reflector screen. It also includes the VHF dipole. A 4MAX version is reportedly coming in June.


It's simple matter of pulling the antenna out of the box, no antenna assembly is necessary for the C2MAX in order to attach it to a mast. For the C1MAX (on our website) and the C4MAX (available mid June or so), the VHF dipoles need to be attached (pretty easy to do, Philips screwdriver). We re-did those models for our retail customers to make them much easier to install.

Without reflectors, all of the models are bi-directional on both UHF and VHF, not omnidirectional. Reflector kits (add-on option) will be available late summer early fall.


----------



## lifespeed

ADTech said:


> In my personal experience, I had a "stretched" 91XG up on my previous home for 7 years.


Any comments on the specific implementation of stretching, does it involve the higher frequency directors (closer) or lower frequency? What are the benefits, more directivity and gain?

Can we expect to see a scaled version of this antenna for the new 600MHz upper band limit of UHF TV? The 91XG design dates back to an 800MHz upper band edge, now it is 700MHz, soon to be 600MHz. Yes, it works as-is, but there will be a lot of performance left on the table with the much narrower 470 to 608MHz UHF TV band. Match and gain should dramatically improve with a narrower band design.


----------



## Primestar31

lifespeed said:


> Any comments on the specific implementation of stretching, does it involve the higher frequency directors (closer) or lower frequency? What are the benefits, more directivity and gain?
> 
> Can we expect to see a scaled version of this antenna for the new 600MHz upper band limit of UHF TV? The 91XG design dates back to an 800MHz upper band edge, now it is 700MHz, soon to be 600MHz. Yes, it works as-is, but there will be a lot of performance left on the table with the much narrower 470 to 608MHz UHF TV band. Match and gain should dramatically improve with a narrower band design.


Stretching one is fairly easy, but not worth the trouble. Stacking them is a much better use of your time and money. If you need stacking that is. Raising a single antenna higher (or making sure you have clear line of sight) will usually gain you more.

I also wish they'd redesign for the new spectrum also. I'd buy two to replace my present HDB91x's.


----------



## lifespeed

Primestar31 said:


> I also wish they'd redesign for the new spectrum also. I'd buy two to replace my present HDB91x's.


I'll probably buy a new antenna once the manufacturers start re-designing their products. The first 100MHz amputation they seemed to ignore, but the band has now shrunk by more than half so lots to gain by a redesign.

As for my interest in stretching the 91XG, it is mostly academic. Stacking side-by-side would help SF bay area multipath via increased directivity, but I can get away with a single antenna currently. We'll see if anything changes after the repack.


----------



## ADTech

> The first 100MHz amputation they seemed to ignore, but the band has now shrunk by more than half so lots to gain by a redesign.


Our ClearStream UHF antennas were designed from the ground up for the post-2009 UHF frequencies. Our bowties antennas were also redesigned and relaunched as the "e" series shortly afterward (2011).



> As for my interest in stretching the 91XG, it is mostly academic.


My "stretched" 91XG was done by adding an additional center section to the stock antenna. It slightly narrowed the beamwidth and helped with a spot more forward gain. Magnitude of any of those changes would be nothing more than a guess at this point.

As for post-2020 UHF frequencies, I did hear that our design engineer was just tasked with the new parameters last week and given instructions on what to do. I do not know any details beyond that. Given that the development pipeline has, in the past, run anywhere from 6-24 months for a new product to emerge on the market, I'd expect 2020 to be the target date as we just spent a BIG truckload of money last year on product re-skins and some new product developments that haven't yet been announced..

As for the 91XG, I have now idea what its future might hold. Anyway, those decisions are above my pay grade, as we used to say when i was in the service years ago.


----------



## Calaveras

lifespeed said:


> As for my interest in stretching the 91XG, it is mostly academic. Stacking side-by-side would help SF bay area multipath via increased directivity, but I can get away with a single antenna currently. We'll see if anything changes after the repack.



I made a 41 element 91XG out of two of them. I had it up for awhile and it seemed to work about the same as stacking two of them.


----------



## gone hiking

Most if not all of you know a lot more than I do about OTA reception/equipment. So any advise would be much appreciated.


In trying to amp up my signal a couple years ago I tried the RadioShack 15-321 antenna-mounted amp that also comes with an indoor signal booster. It didn't help. In fact. with the booster on, it made things worse. When I first installed antennas on the roof using a chimney mount, I got all new well-insulated RG6 cables. I have a 25' downlead and another 50' after a splitter. I was using a Clearstream 5 along with a DB2e combined with a VHF/UHF diplexer from Antennas Direct. Not the best setup for my situation in south San Jose as it turns out. At the time I got the C5 because I thought it was the only choice available for VHF. And since it receives some UHF, I figured I only needed to augment it with the small DB2e.


Current equipment:


Stellar Labs HDB91x Long Range 91-element UHF yagi (essentially a clone of the A.D. 91XG)
Stellar Labs “Deep Fringe” directional VHF antenna
Same diplexer/combiner as before
Tried a PA-18 preamp from A.D., but it actually results in degraded signal strength across the board on all channels!


With this setup there is still a noticeable db loss after the splitter, but UHF is improved a lot and KNTV RF12 moderately. All stations show up with 100% signal quality EXCEPT RF7, which varies wildly all the time. KGO's wimpy 23.8kw transmitter in SF is still hit or miss and their even weaker (RF35) repeater on Mt Allison is still not reliably consistent.


Any suggestions on amping the signal without spending a lot? I only really need to get KGO working reliably, which I suspect may be out of my control. Everything else may not be perfect, but it's good enough. 


What I've considered so far:


Raising the antennas.
Upgrading to RG11 for either the 25' or 50' section or both.
And in case Rf35 ever gets going right, putting the DB2e back up to enhance the UHF from Mt Allison at least (don't know how to combine with the other 2 antennas, though).


Thanks,
Eric


----------



## SFischer1

gone hiking said:


> Most if not all of you know a lot more than I do about OTA reception/equipment. So any advise would be much appreciated.
> ...
> Thanks,
> Eric


I suggest that you post to:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-local-hdtv-info-reception/369015-san-francisco-ca-ota.html

Where we have a very knowledgeable group and some of the same experts that are here.

SHF

P.S. The requested method of offering a TVFool report is to include the link like:

*http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de6a49dd34f5382


*Which I extracted from your PDF. That allows some additional information that is only available by clicking.

Please include your ZIP code so we can tell where you are which your TVFool does not include as it usually does.


South San Jose can be hard, one person was way beyond help for KGO. The other comments I will hold until your location is pinned down better.


SHF


----------



## gone hiking

SFischer1 said:


> I suggest that you post to:
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-local-hdtv-info-reception/369015-san-francisco-ca-ota.html
> 
> Where we have a very knowledgeable group and some of the same experts that are here.
> 
> SHF


OK. Will do with the proper link.


----------



## lifespeed

SFischer1 said:


> South San Jose can be hard, one person was way beyond help for KGO. The other comments I will hold until your location is pinned down better.
> 
> SHF


Good advice re: how to request help. Not sure if you're referring to my KGO situation in the shadow of a hill with a strong adjacent channel transmitter, but those challenges can be overcome with a good antenna installed with short RG6 to the tuner and no pre-amp. The annoying dropouts were entirely the fault of KGOs repeater setup, which have been stable and resolved for more than a week now.


----------



## SFischer1

lifespeed said:


> Good advice re: how to request help. Not sure if you're referring to my KGO situation in the shadow of a hill with a strong adjacent channel transmitter, but those challenges can be overcome with a good antenna installed with short RG6 to the tuner and no pre-amp. The annoying dropouts were entirely the fault of KGOs repeater setup, which have been stable and resolved for more than a week now.


Not you. That person was blocked from Sutro by two hills I remember and from Mt. Allison by a close hill. And the Mt. Allison transmitter is so much lower power and was blocked. He was South of the hills that Gone Hiking is to the North of according to his zip code. 

Almaden Valley can be a big problem the further you go South East.

Yes KGO VC 7 RF 35 is much better these days but I do wonder if Toast0's location has some local problems like airplanes landing or taking off. I think there is a pattern to the large spikes, but I do not have it figured out.

http://ruka.org/~toast/atscdata/chart.php?c=35 

Note to those not in the SF Bay area, Toast0 has a 24/7 station monitoring most frequencies.

SHF


----------



## krick

ADTech said:


> It's simple matter of pulling the antenna out of the box, no antenna assembly is necessary for the C2MAX in order to attach it to a mast. For the C1MAX (on our website) and the C4MAX (available mid June or so), the VHF dipoles need to be attached (pretty easy to do, Philips screwdriver). We re-did those models for our retail customers to make them much easier to install.
> 
> Without reflectors, all of the models are bi-directional on both UHF and VHF, not omnidirectional. Reflector kits (add-on option) will be available late summer early fall.


I currently have a Clearstream 2V mounted in my attic. The specs on the website say - Range: 60 Miles, Gain: 10.2 dBi. However I have removed the reflector to make it bi-directional. With that modification, I don't know how much it changes the gain and range.

I'm considering replacing this antenna with the new Clearstream 4Max. The specs on the website say - Range: 70 Miles, Gain: 11 dBi. However, this model doesn't come with a reflector so it's already bi-directional.

Do you think the 4Max will perform better than the 2V with the reflector removed in a bi-directional application?

I haven't seen a gain plot/map for the new 4Max, so I don't know how symmetrical it is.

The only thing I can find is this image comparing the old Clearstream 2 vs the old Clearstream 4 (both with reflectors)...











One final question regarding the Clearstream JUICE amplifier. I notice that this uses a 12v power source while some competitors products use a 5v power source. Does this make any practical difference in the performance?


----------



## holl_ands

I analyzed C2, C2V and C2 w/o Reflector here, note that w/o Reflector it loses 4.1 dB on 470 MHz and 3.3 dB on 698 MHz:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/hivhfuhftaperedloopc2v

C4 and 4Max appear to be the same...here's the "sell sheet" with specs for the C4:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/pdf/C4-sellsheet.pdf
Without reflector, it probably suffers ABOUT the same amount of Loss as C2....

The proof is in the SPECS....if they even bother to tell us what they are....or Calaveras's MEASUREMENTS:
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_a...Performance_Summary - Calaveras 28Nov2015.jpg

Perfectly good Preamps can be designed to operate with 5-volts [or LESS], for example see most any CellPhone.....
And I wouldn't rule out that SOME Preamps MIGHT even be using a 5-volt to 12 or 15-volt Voltage Converter Chip, JUST so they can plug the Power Insertion Module into a convenient USB Port on your computer....or DTV.

FWIW: Pete Higgins measured ACTUAL voltages used by a few of his Preamps and also noted that his Winegard Preamps used an Voltage Regulator in the Preamp to ensure a steady 8 VDC was available for the circuitry, irrespective of how much Voltage Drop there might be in the Coax, whereas the RCA Preamp had the Voltage Regulator in the Power Insertion Module and hence was apparently designed to work with considerable Voltage Drop in the Coax:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81-...amps-preamps-distro-amps-260.html#post2195858


----------



## rabbit73

The problem with the preamps that use 5 V (not the in-line USB amps) is the distance between the preamp at the antenna and the power inserter inside. For the same amount of power (watts) needed by the preamp, the 5 V preamp will draw 2 to 3 times the current of the higher voltage preamps. This means 2 to 3 times the voltage drop in the coax that the preamp might not tolerate without a malfunction.

The general rule with the higher voltage preamps has been RG6 with a copper clad steel center conductor is OK up to 100 feet; RG6 with a solid copper center conductor can be used up to 200 feet. This is because the copper clad steel center conductor has a higher resistance than the solid copper.

I have no idea how long a coax line for a Winegard LNA-200 can be and still function properly, but maybe someday I'll test it.


----------



## jstenuf

I live in the Minneapolis/St.Paul Minnesota of area. I am working on cutting the cord, but the other half won't allow a roof top antenna so I am forced to place the antenna in the attic. I would appreciate any advice on the best antenna for this application as well as any other advice/recommendations.
I have attached a "TV Fool" analysis below 

Thanks in advance.


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e6a4216c41eab9


----------



## Calaveras

jstenuf said:


> I live in the Minneapolis/St.Paul Minnesota of area. I am working on cutting the cord, but the other half won't allow a roof top antenna so I am forced to place the antenna in the attic. I would appreciate any advice on the best antenna for this application as well as any other advice/recommendations.



You should start your own thread for this and provide a link to your TV Fool report. But your situation is very easy. Assuming you want just the stations at 324/327 degrees which are close and extremely strong a small VHF/UHF antenna should work in the attic. I'd go with the Winegard HD7694P if it'll fit or maybe the smaller RCA ANT751. Do not use a preamp. The stations are too strong and there will be overload.

If you want all those "LD" stations then that's another story.


----------



## lifespeed

jstenuf said:


> I live in the Minneapolis/St.Paul Minnesota of area. I am working on cutting the cord, but the other half won't allow a roof top antenna so I am forced to place the antenna in the attic. I would appreciate any advice on the best antenna for this application as well as any other advice/recommendations.
> I have attached a "TV Fool" analysis below
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Post a live link, not a photo. Do you care about the stations in red and yellow?


----------



## jstenuf

lifespeed said:


> Post a live link, not a photo. Do you care about the stations in red and yellow?


The stations in green should be all I need.


----------



## jstenuf

Calaveras said:


> You should start your own thread for this and provide a link to your TV Fool report. But your situation is very easy. Assuming you want just the stations at 324/327 degrees which are close and extremely strong a small VHF/UHF antenna should work in the attic. I'd go with the Winegard HD7694P if it'll fit or maybe the smaller RCA ANT751. Do not use a preamp. The stations are too strong and there will be overload.
> 
> If you want all those "LD" stations then that's another story.


Is the range of the recommended antennas required because of signal loss associated with an attic installation?


----------



## Calaveras

jstenuf said:


> Is the range of the recommended antennas required because of signal loss associated with an attic installation?


Antennas don't have ranges and are not rated in miles so I'm not sure what you're asking. There is signal loss in an attic and reflections inside the attic can cause problems regardless of the signal strength. You should be able to receive all the stations in green with the antenna pointed at about 305 degrees.


----------



## lifespeed

jstenuf said:


> The stations in green should be all I need.


In that case you shouldn't have much trouble barring unforseen attic reflections. I agree with Calaveras.


----------



## lohertz

jstenuf said:


> The stations in green should be all I need.




How many televisions? How much cable between the antenna and your distribution? Between the distribution and the televisions?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jstenuf

lohertz said:


> How many televisions? How much cable between the antenna and your distribution? Between the distribution and the televisions?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Two television. 
Approximately 20 feet to the distribution point
Approximately 30 feet for 1 of the sets from the distribution point and 50 feet for the second.


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## holl_ands

"Attic Loss" varies a LOT due to construction details and Roofing Materials (Metal is the WORST and Red Spanish Tile is also fairly high with wood shingles LOW....until it gets WET)....and whether signals are blocked by Aluminized Mylar "Thermal Wrap", Foil Backed Insulation or Chicken Wire in Stucco (popular in my location)....and BTW, shooting through END of the Attic may be LOWER Loss...esp. if remove Metal Mylar/Foil. OTOH, Windows can let signal leak in, where they are reflected around inside....unless they have a LowE Thermal [Metal] coating...which has about 20 dB Loss. Based on looking at MANY different OTA Tests over MANY years, on the average there is about 13 dB +/- 7 dB difference between Roof and Attic Mounted Antenna....which is a HUGE difference.


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## lifespeed

jstenuf said:


> Is the range of the recommended antennas required because of signal loss associated with an attic installation?


One other possibility should the cool, wife-pleasing invisible attic installation prove problematic due to the various interfering materials mentioned: a rather small, unobtrusive directional combination VHF/UHF antenna would not even be visible from the ground depending on mounting location. The ELEV-J3 would be one possibility. Mounted low at the peak of the roof it would be hard to see.

Inside the attic, the largest, highest-gain Yagi you can fit has the best chancing of working with the diminshed signal and multipath. If you have any metal in the roof, or foil insulation applied to the roof sheeting, you may want to consider a small, discreet outdoor antenna instead.


----------



## rabbit73

*New Source for MCM Stellar Labs VHF-High Yagi Antennas*

If you try to order the MCM 30-2475 or 2476 VHF yagi after Oct 1, 2017, you will be redirected to the Newark.com web site. 

30-2475 - 
FRINGE DIRECTIONAL ANTENNA VHF-HI HDTV 174 - 230MHZ
Newark part number 48Y8141
http://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2475/fringe-directional-antenna-vhf/dp/48Y8141

30-2476 - 
FRINGE DIRECTIONAL ANTENNA VHF-HI HDTV 174 - 230MHZ
Newark Part No.: 71Y5462 
http://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2476/fringe-directional-antenna-vhf/dp/71Y5462

Note that they have left out the word DEEP in front of the 2476, giving them the same name.

If you want the manual, download it now from the MCM site, it isn't on the Newark site.




> Sent: Fri, Sep 01, 2017 10:49 AM
> Subject: A Very Exciting Announcement!
> 
> We are thrilled to share a very exciting announcement with you: MCM will soon be operating under the Newark element14 name! The combined product lines of MCM and Newark will offer you a broader range of innovative solutions to serve your needs. You’ll also have access to many new benefits by registering below.
> 
> In the coming months, MCM and Newark will be working to combine operations. During this time, MCM products will become available on the Newark website. We invite you to register for an account on Newark’s website and begin placing orders through Newark.com.


----------



## tylerSC

rabbit73 said:


> If you try to order the MCM 30-2475 or 2476 VHF yagi after Oct 1, 2017, you will be redirected to the Newark.com web site.
> 
> 30-2475 -
> FRINGE DIRECTIONAL ANTENNA VHF-HI HDTV 174 - 230MHZ
> Newark part number 48Y8141
> http://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2475/fringe-directional-antenna-vhf/dp/48Y8141
> 
> 30-2476 -
> FRINGE DIRECTIONAL ANTENNA VHF-HI HDTV 174 - 230MHZ
> Newark Part No.: 71Y5462
> http://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2476/fringe-directional-antenna-vhf/dp/71Y5462
> 
> Note that they have left out the word DEEP in front of the 2476, giving them the same name.
> 
> If you want the manual, download it now from the MCM site, it isn't on the Newark site.


Apparently Premiere Farnell is merging their 2 companies into one entity, or at least one website. Newark has a warehouse near me in Gaffney, SC and MCM has their warehouse in Ohio. I wonder if eventually those distribution centers may consolidate as well.


----------



## Jason Heerts

Hell all, i need a good VHF HI only antenna for towers 45 miles out, i was going to get the Deep Fringe Directional Antenna VHF-Hi HDTV 174 - 230MHz, but i guess no one has it anymore, impossible to get unless u wait 4 months.

I wanted that one cause it has good reviews and was only 35 bucks.

What might you guys recommend instead?


----------



## lifespeed

Jason Heerts said:


> Hell all, i need a good VHF HI only antenna for towers 45 miles out, i was going to get the Deep Fringe Directional Antenna VHF-Hi HDTV 174 - 230MHz, but i guess no one has it anymore, impossible to get unless u wait 4 months.
> 
> I wanted that one cause it has good reviews and was only 35 bucks.
> 
> What might you guys recommend instead?


For 30-2476 - FRINGE DIRECTIONAL ANTENNA VHF-HI HDTV 174 - 230MHZ the website says 656 in stock. It is one of the few VHF-only high gain antenna available.


----------



## ctdish

http://www.ebay.com/itm/STELLAR-LAB...-Antenna-VHF-Hi-HDTV-174-230MHz-/272348186277


----------



## nathill

ctdish said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/STELLAR-LAB...-Antenna-VHF-Hi-HDTV-174-230MHz-/272348186277


I recently purchased a Stellar Labs (30-2475) MCM Part #30-2475 , which is their cheaper version VHF antenna.
These babies are of very high quality and look like they will last forever.
And, the RCA TVPRAMP1Z Preamplifier has separate UHF-VHF inputs.
Just make sure and set the pre-amp for separate inputs.
I highly recommend this combination.


----------



## tylerSC

nathill said:


> I recently purchased a Stellar Labs (30-2475) MCM Part #30-2475 , which is their cheaper version VHF antenna.
> These babies are of very high quality and look like they will last forever.
> And, the RCA TVPRAMP1Z Preamplifier has separate UHF-VHF inputs.
> Just make sure and set the pre-amp for separate inputs.
> I highly recommend this combination.


I think the RCA is the only preamp that still has the dual separate inputs for UHF and VHF, since the the original Channel Master 7778 and 7777 models are no longer produced. And it apparently has a decent noise figure and good overload tolerance. And it is very reasonably priced when ordered from Amazon or Walmart.


----------



## Calaveras

tylerSC said:


> And it apparently has a decent noise figure and good overload tolerance.



I've tried to debunk the idea that the RCA has good overload characteristics before but the idea that it is good persists. It's not good. Out of all the preamps I've measured the RCA is 2nd worst on UHF. I measured IP3 on VHF at +28.5 dBm and on UHF at +22.1 dBm at best. Compare that to the AD Juice preamp that measured +37.5 dBm on both VHF and UHF. I think this came about because one person ran a subjective over-the-air test and it worked for him therefore it had good overload characteristics. That's all well and good but it's not objective data.

My original post with all the measurements except IP3 is located here:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/1794290-rca-tvpramp1r-preamp-technical-review.html

I didn't have two signal generators at the time to measure IP3. Attached are the measurements I didn't have before.


----------



## lifespeed

Calaveras said:


> I've tried to debunk the idea that the RCA has good overload characteristics before but the idea that it is good persists. It's not good. Out of all the preamps I've measured the RCA is 2nd worst on UHF. I measured IP3 on VHF at +28.5 dBm and on UHF at +22.1 dBm at best. Compare that to the AD Juice preamp that measured +37.5 dBm on both VHF and UHF. I think this came about because one person ran a subjective over-the-air test and it worked for him therefore it had good overload characteristics. That's all well and good but it's not objective data.


Great data, thanks for sharing. Fortunately my location does not call for a pre-amp, but the EE in me still finds it fascinating. Just got my hands on a F to SMA adapter so I can bring a spectrum analyzer home from work and geek out on my antenna reception spectrum.


----------



## tylerSC

Calaveras said:


> I've tried to debunk the idea that the RCA has good overload characteristics before but the idea that it is good persists. It's not good. Out of all the preamps I've measured the RCA is 2nd worst on UHF. I measured IP3 on VHF at +28.5 dBm and on UHF at +22.1 dBm at best. Compare that to the AD Juice preamp that measured +37.5 dBm on both VHF and UHF. I think this came about because one person ran a subjective over-the-air test and it worked for him therefore it had good overload characteristics. That's all well and good but it's not objective data.
> 
> My original post with all the measurements except IP3 is located here:
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/1794290-rca-tvpramp1r-preamp-technical-review.html
> 
> I didn't have two signal generators at the time to measure IP3. Attached are the measurements I didn't have before.


Thanks for clarifying the overload issue. I will stand corrected. Perhaps this issue has been falsely reported. But I know I have read a favorable technical review of the RCA somewhere, perhaps the noise figure and dual inputs were the good points, as well as the low cost factor. But it has indeed been established here that the Juice preamp from Antennas Direct may be best where overload tolerance is concerned, and it also has a decent noise figure. It is probably best for moderate gain and a balance of strong and weak signals. But if combining antennas for UHF and VHF, you will have to add a UVSJ.


----------



## Calaveras

tylerSC said:


> It is probably best for moderate gain and a balance of strong and weak signals. But if combining antennas for UHF and VHF, you will have to add a UVSJ.



It's not impossible to get around this, just expensive. I'm using a Tinlee UVSJ with DC pass on both ports and separate VHF & UHF preamps. You can select preamps based on what you need; Gain/NF/Strong Signal handling.

On UHF I use a Tinlee 30dB gain preamp for my extremely long coax run and its high IP3 for one strong station. It's NF is decent. On VHF I use a KT-200 for its very low noise figure and moderate gain. The KT-200 IP3 is okay but I don't care because I have no strong stations on VHF.


----------



## Jason Heerts

btw, still looking for that antenna. The site said it has that many avail, but then routed you to an out of stock page. Also, you see what ebay is trying to get for them? Not $35 anymore, more like 60 minimum, or selling the step down one. I am 50 miles away so need something hefty.

ALAS, only place i found it KITSUSA, still at $35. Deep space google! Going to try it.

Also, doing a bit of research seems to state that the Winegard CC-7870 is the best way to go about converting them together? $20 for that.

I'm getting closer! Sorry i went awol there for a while. Thanks for the ears, and the help!!


----------



## Jason Heerts

sorry, duplicate message.


----------



## rabbit73

Newark will have the 30-2476/71Y5462 soon for the regular price. Click on backorder to see dates.



> 641 Further stock expected to ship on Oct 1, 2017
> More stock available week commencing 1/1/18


http://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2476/fringe-directional-antenna-vhf/dp/71Y5462?ost=71Y5462&iscrfnonsku=false&ddkey=http%3Aen-US%2FElement14_US%2Fsearch


> Also, doing a bit of research seems to state the Winegard CC-7870 is the best way to go about converting them together? $20 for that.


That is the wrong device to combine a UHF antenna and a VHF antenna. You need a UVSJ (UHF/VHF Separator/Joiner.

https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/UHF-VHF-Antenna-Combiners.html

Avoid the Stellar Labs 33-2230; it isn't as good.


----------



## Jason Heerts

Yeah, i am on the list to get an email from newark as soon as it comes in. Or i can just guy from that other place.

But THANK YOU bigtime on the right combiner!

Any quick ideas/suggestions how you might set up this stellar labs and the clearstream 4V together?


----------



## rabbit73

Jason Heerts said:


> ok, i am hitting that button twice, i promise no duplicate's from here on out!


You are able to delete a duplicate post, Jason.

Edit > GO ADVANCED > Click on Delete Message > Click on DELETE THIS MESSAGE

Admin has been messing with the forum software again trying to IMPROVE it. When you click on Edit, it now takes FOREVER for your post to come up to make an edit.


----------



## rabbit73

Jason Heerts said:


> Any quick ideas/suggestions how you might set up this stellar labs and the clearstream 4V together?


You connect the VHF antenna to the VHF input and the UHF antenna to the UHF input of the UVSJ UHF/VHF combiner. Connect the output of the UVSJ to your TV or to the input of a preamp if you are using one. If your preamp has separate UHF and VHF inputs, then you don't need a UVSJ, the preamp will combine them.

If you want to know more than that, your questions should be on your ORIGINAL thread about your reception problem.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/2915534-new-hartford-ia-antenna-help.html


----------



## cube799

Does anyone know if this antenna is any good? 

https://www.amazon.com/TERK-Amplifi...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=RS36K4E6FGWMHJNNMG5B

It's a cylinder antenna by Terk. Right Now I have The Terk HDTVa. Is this one better than that one?


----------



## holl_ands

It a SMALL OMNI....and very probably ONLY for UHF Band [although MIGHT have some negative Gain for Hi-VHF Ch7-13).
So it would NOT suppress Multipath and Interference.
http://www.terk.com/indoor-antennas/?sku=OMNITWR#manuals [Specs??? We don't need no Stink'n Specs!!!]

IF, as I suspect from the outside texture, it MAY be a Double Helix Omni with 3-Turns each....which MIGHT provide a bit LESS UHF Gain [perhaps a LOT Less] as 7 dBi of LPDA in HDTVa....but there is NO WAY it provides anywhere near as much VHF Gain as Rabbit-Ear p/o HDTVa. AND since it is an OMNI, it likely is a TOTAL WASTE OF $86 for MOST people to receive TV Stations usually found in the SAME general direction.


----------



## holl_ands

BTW: IF you "NEED" [or want to TRY] an Omni Antenna for UHF Band, nikiml did an Optimization of the Horizontally Polarized DIY SBGH, with 3.1 dB (min) to 7.8 dB (max) UHF Gain. Note that it is about 30-in High, giving you an idea of the SIZE needed to provide this capability:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/omni/uhfgreyhovermanquasiomninikiml

I also did an Optimization of the Horizontally Polarized 10.5-Turn Helical Antenna with a DONUT shaped Antenna Pattern (rather than along the direction of the Helix as used in SATCOM Antennas). Specifically designed for ONE Frequency of [Transmit] Operation, the Bandwidth was fairly limited, but it DID provide a very good OMNI Pattern near the desired operating frequency. A much smaller 3-Turn Antenna would have MUCH smaller than the 5-6 dBi Gain for the 10.5-Turn model:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/omni/490mhzhpolcollinearhelicalomniplus


----------



## tylerSC

Don't know how well it works, but it is much cheaper in Walmart stores.


----------



## Calaveras

*Kitztech KT-501 Preamp Tests*

I purchased and tested a KT-501. There was a report that Kitztech claimed IP3 as +36 dBm. If true that would be a good number for handling of strong signals. Unfortunately I was not able to confirm that number. It appears to me KT-501 is just a lower gain version of the KT-500.

I've attached a series of spectrum analyzer images showing tests results for gain, noise figure and IP3 for VHF and UHF for the KT-501. The images are as follows:

1) VHF Gain
2) UHF Gain
3) VHF NF
4) UHF NF
5) VHF IP3
6) UHF IP3

Here's a summary of the test results for the KT-501 and KT-500. All tests are done with gain set to maximum.

KT-501 / KT-500

VHF Gain - 16 dB / 35.5 dB
UHF Gain - 16.8 dB / 33.5 dB
VHF NF - 1.8 dB / 1.3 dB
UHF NF - 1.9 dB / 1.3 dB
VHF IP3 - +26.2 dBm / +21.6 dBm
UHF IP3 - +26.3 dBm / +21.3 dBm

Those numbers for UHF IP3 on both preamps are some of the lowest I've measured. I can't recommend either of these preamps. The KT-200 is a much better preamp. I measured its IP3 at +30 dBm and the NF is a bit lower.

The best commercial preamp I've measured for IP3 is a 30 dB gain Tinlee MA-25U-77A at +37.5 dBm. The next best is the Clearstream Juice at 35.5 dBm. Both of those numbers are excellent. 

The Juice preamp NF is about 1 dB higher than the 500/501 but I think that's a very small price to pay for the much superior strong signal handling. If you have a station that's so weak that 1 dB actually makes any difference then the station won't be anywhere near 100% reception.


----------



## Larry Kenney

Since you're talking about various pre-amps, have you ever found one that would work for me, 3/4 mile from Sutro Tower? I sure could use some gain for the Walnut Grove stations, but all preamps I've tried are overloaded by the strong Sutro signals, so I haven't been able to use one.

Larry


----------



## rabbit73

*Using a High SFDR Preamp in a Strong Signal Location*



Larry Kenney said:


> Since you're talking about various pre-amps, have you ever found one that would work for me, 3/4 mile from Sutro Tower?




*Larry:*

*Calaveras* did a comparison chart of preamps. What you want is a preamp with a high max input in dBm and a high SFDR (Spurious-Free Dynamic Range). 










The Spurious-Free Dynamic range is the difference between the strongest signal and the weakest desired signal plus the minimum SNR of 16 dB for the weakest signal. IOW, from the top of the strongest signal to the bottom of the weakest desired signal.










As a first approximation you can use the dBm figures on your tvfool signal report. For a more accurate calculation, you would need to measure the signals from your antenna with a signal level meter because the strong signals from a close tower are above your location.

If the calculated SFDR for your signals is equal to or less than the listed SFDR for the preamp, you have a chance. If your calculated SFDR is greater than any listed SFDR, you would need to attenuate your strongest signals.

As you can see from Chuck's chart, the medium gain preamps have the best SFDR. The Tin Lee preamp is an excellent preamp. It has a low NF and a lot of gain which is what Chuck needed for his long coax run, but not the best SFDR. It was the ideal preamp for his location.

But, you're not done yet because you have to match your signals to fit the possible SFDR of your preamp. 

If your signals are strong (too hot), the strongest signals will start to cause partial overload of a preamp or tuner, and they will create spurious signals from IMD (Intermodulation Distortion) that will raise the noise floor and reduce the SNR of your weakest signals. The weakest signals will be strong enough, but they will be damaged. IOW, the strongest signals are bumping out the top of the SFDR window.

OTOH, if all your signals are a little too weak, the strong signals will not create spurs from IMD, but the weakest signals will be too weak to decode. IOW, they have fallen out the bottom of the SFRD window.

Your task is to match your signals to the SFDR window. You do this by starting with the signals a little too hot and add attenuation to the signals from the antenna.

It might seem counterintuitive to make the weak signals even weaker, but this will improve the SNR of the weak signals because the spurious signals drop three times as fast as the weak signals when you add attenuation. For every one dB of attenuation, the IMD will go down 3 dB, giving you a potential SNR gain of 2 dB.

My local signals are not strong enough to cause IMD, but I have run attenuator simulations at two locations by adding amplification to my local signals. I'm convinced that the method works.

1st example:










2nd example:

Ant > 7777HD #2 > variable attenuator > CM3410 > 7777HD #1 > splitter > TV and signal level meter

The low gain (green LED) setting was used for both CM7777HD/Amplify preamps. The 7777HD #2 preamp made the local signals stronger. The CM3410 handles strong signals with low distortion, so it was used to feed the signals to CM7777HD #1, which was the device under test.




















A setting of 8 dB on the attenuator gave the strongest signal with a good SNR. Note that the noise floor dropped 20 dB for a 10 dB change in the attenuator. The noise floor was high from electrical interference, and the sum of the NFs from the preamps in series for the simulation. The strength of the signal varied because the antenna was indoors and the signal had to pass through trees and buildings. Oh, and the weather was bad because of a storm coming up the coast from the south. Not ideal, but the test is still valid; it was the best that I could do at my present location.

The point is, the SFDR of the preamp is fixed at certain maximum and minimum dBm values. You must adjust the dynamic range of your signals to match those values to make full use of the preamp SFDR.


----------



## tylerSC

Calaveras said:


> *Kitztech KT-501 Preamp Tests*
> 
> I purchased and tested a KT-501. There was a report that Kitztech claimed IP3 as +36 dBm. If true that would be a good number for handling of strong signals. Unfortunately I was not able to confirm that number. It appears to me KT-501 is just a lower gain version of the KT-500.
> 
> I've attached a series of spectrum analyzer images showing tests results for gain, noise figure and IP3 for VHF and UHF for the KT-501. The images are as follows:
> 
> 1) VHF Gain
> 2) UHF Gain
> 3) VHF NF
> 4) UHF NF
> 5) VHF IP3
> 6) UHF IP3
> 
> Here's a summary of the test results for the KT-501 and KT-500. All tests are done with gain set to maximum.
> 
> KT-501 / KT-500
> 
> VHF Gain - 16 dB / 35.5 dB
> UHF Gain - 16.8 dB / 33.5 dB
> VHF NF - 1.8 dB / 1.3 dB
> UHF NF - 1.9 dB / 1.3 dB
> VHF IP3 - +26.2 dBm / +21.6 dBm
> UHF IP3 - +26.3 dBm / +21.3 dBm
> 
> Those numbers for UHF IP3 on both preamps are some of the lowest I've measured. I can't recommend either of these preamps. The KT-200 is a much better preamp. I measured its IP3 at +30 dBm and the NF is a bit lower.
> 
> The best commercial preamp I've measured for IP3 is a 30 dB gain Tinlee MA-25U-77A at +37.5 dBm. The next best is the Clearstream Juice at 35.5 dBm. Both of those numbers are excellent.
> 
> The Juice preamp NF is about 1 dB higher than the 500/501 but I think that's a very small price to pay for the much superior strong signal handling. If you have a station that's so weak that 1 dB actually makes any difference then the station won't be anywhere near 100% reception.


So the IP3 is the critical factor influencing overload protection from strong signals. The Juice has been reported as one of the best preamps for dealing with strong signals and overload concerns and you seem to confirm those reports. I am going to switch to the Juice amp at a problematic attic installation I am currently dealing with, zip code 29615. I will replace the new CM-Amplify that seems to work well but there appears to be some overload issues, despite the dual gain adjustments. Have you had a chance to test or review the Amplify from Channel Master?


----------



## Larry Kenney

rabbit73 said:


> Larry
> 
> Calaveras did a comparison chart of preamps. What you want is a preamp with a high max input in dBm and a great SFDR.
> The Spurious Free Dynamic range is the difference between the strongest signal and the weakest desired signal plus the minimum SNR of 16 dB for the weakest signal. IOW, from the top of the strongest signal to the bottom of the weakest desired signal.


I'm going to have to study all of that information and try to make sense out of it to see if there's anything that will work for me.

Thanks for all of the information, Rabbit!

Larry


----------



## Intheswamp

Calaveras said:


> *Kitztech KT-501 Preamp Tests*
> 
> I purchased and tested a KT-501. There was a report that Kitztech claimed IP3 as +36 dBm. If true that would be a good number for handling of strong signals. Unfortunately I was not able to confirm that number. It appears to me KT-501 is just a lower gain version of the KT-500.
> 
> Here's a summary of the test results for the KT-501 and KT-500. All tests are done with gain set to maximum.
> 
> KT-501 / KT-500
> 
> VHF Gain - 16 dB / 35.5 dB
> UHF Gain - 16.8 dB / 33.5 dB
> VHF NF - 1.8 dB / 1.3 dB
> UHF NF - 1.9 dB / 1.3 dB
> VHF IP3 - +26.2 dBm / +21.6 dBm
> UHF IP3 - +26.3 dBm / +21.3 dBm
> 
> Those numbers for UHF IP3 on both preamps are some of the lowest I've measured. I can't recommend either of these preamps. The KT-200 is a much better preamp. I measured its IP3 at +30 dBm and the NF is a bit lower.
> 
> The best commercial preamp I've measured for IP3 is a 30 dB gain Tinlee MA-25U-77A at +37.5 dBm. The next best is the Clearstream Juice at 35.5 dBm. Both of those numbers are excellent.
> 
> The Juice preamp NF is about 1 dB higher than the 500/501 but I think that's a very small price to pay for the much superior strong signal handling. If you have a station that's so weak that 1 dB actually makes any difference then the station won't be anywhere near 100% reception.


Thanks for all the work in testing this out!!! It certainly helps me out in some of my decision-making...especially with the planning of my new antenna system installation at my house...I've got a challenge ahead of me to pull out a 2-edge station.


----------



## Calaveras

tylerSC said:


> So the IP3 is the critical factor influencing overload protection from strong signals. The Juice has been reported as one of the best preamps for dealing with strong signals and overload concerns and you seem to confirm those reports. I am going to switch to the Juice amp at a problematic attic installation I am currently dealing with, zip code 29615. I will replace the new CM-Amplify that seems to work well but there appears to be some overload issues, despite the dual gain adjustments. Have you had a chance to test or review the Amplify from Channel Master?


IP3 is number you can compare for each preamp. Gain also is a factor because the higher the gain the easier it is to overload. A high gain preamp needs to have a high IP3 unless all your signals (including out of band signals) are weak. A preamp with high IP3 and low gain like the Juice will be hardest to overload. 

I forgot to mention the that CM3410 distribution amp is also an excellent amp with IP3= +34dBm on UHF and 15 dB gain. A CM3410 used as a preamp and a CM3414 distribution amp with up to 100' of coax would be about as overload tolerant as you can get with a good noise figure.

I have not tested the Amplify. Would you like me to test yours when you swap it out? PM me to make arrangements if you do. I purchased the Kitztech amps to run these tests and was disappointed with the results.


----------



## holl_ands

The KEY to receiving a Very Weak Station among a flood of Extremely Strong Stations is to use a Single Channel FILTER [or Inserter plus Single Channel Filter if TWO Weak Channels] (Tin-Lee, Jan Jenca or obsolete C-M JoinTenna) on a High Gain Antenna pointed towards the Desired Weak Station(s) PRIOR to going through a Preamp used ONLY for THAT Weak Single Channel Antenna. [STRONG Signals do NOT go thru Preamp or Distro Amp.] This severely attenuates ALL Channels except the one you want prior to going through the Preamp. [You can also use multiple Single Channel Inserters or a wider bandwidth Adjacent Channel Inserter if that is needed]. You MIGHT also need to ATTENUATE the signal levels from the Antenna receiving the REST of the Channels prior to RF Combiner [SAT type with DC PASS on Port to Preamp]....and furthermore, if you NEED additional help, you might want to ALSO add a SINGLE CHANNEL REJECT FILTER tuned to the Desired Weak Channel on the Full-Band Antenna to further reduce Intermod Noise getting into the Tuner:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/2503290-jan-jenca-channel-inserter-combiner.html
http://www.tinlee.com/MATV_headend.php?active=3#FILTERSANDTRAPS [Tin-Lee CF7 Single Channel Filter if only ONE Freq]

IF you want MULTIPLE Weak Channels, it's more complicated....and you'll also need one of these for the Second Weak Channel...both PRIOR to Preamp...and Preamp OUTPUT is connected to one port of RF Combiner:
http://www.tinlee.com/MATV_headend.php?active=3#ANTENNASIGNALINJECTORS [Tin-Lee AC7 Single Channel Injector]


----------



## rabbit73

Larry Kenney said:


> I'm going to have to study all of that information and try to make sense out of it to see if there's anything that will work for me.
> 
> Thanks for all of the information, Rabbit!
> 
> Larry


I added some examples to my previous post. Hope it doesn't overload *your* input.

I then took a look at your tvfool signal report. 
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=e6a4e93f3cacc6










Lots of signal powers highlighted in red to indicate possible overload.

But it isn't as bleak as it looks at first glance. The peak of the transmitting elevation pattern is probably well above your location because of the vertical stacking of the transmitting antenna bays, and if your antenna is aimed NE at Wanut Grove, the F/B of your antenna will attenuate the Sutro signals from the west.

KPIX signal power = -1.2 dBm
Your strongest Walnut Grove signal is KXTV = -82.6 dBm
The difference is 81.4 dB
Required SFDR is 81.4 + 16 = 97.4 dB

Taken as it is, you would need a single channel headend amp as mentioned by holl_ands to receive KPIX. But, I think you are looking for general coverage rather than single channel reception. If you take into consideration the above two factors that make Sutro weaker, then the required SFDR is reduced. An unknown factor will be the Sutro signals reflected off buildings in front of your antenna when it is aimed at Walnut Grove.

The MAX input of the Juice and the CM3410 is about -21 dBm, so you will need an attenuator between the antenna and the preamp. Its value will be determined with a variable attenuator and your HDHR signal monitor; you can substitute a fixed attenuator of equal value. If it is not convenient to adjust the variable attenuator on the roof, you can extend the antenna coax down to a more convenient location for the attenuator and amp. Yes, the extended coax will attenuate the signals, but you are adding attenuation anyway.

I am reminded of a Canadian who wanted to receive his strong local signals and some weak US signals. His antenna was on the roof, and his preamp was down below after 50 ft of RG6. It was working well, but he thought his preamp should be up near the antenna. Well, that's usually the best place for it because it gives the best system NF, but when he moved it up, he lost his weak US signals. The coax loss had been just enough attenuation to reduce the IMD that was harming the US signals. We told him that the best location for his preamp was where it worked.

I can't guarantee this will work for you, but that is the way to find out.


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> Lots of signal powers highlighted in red to indicate possible overload.
> 
> But it isn't as bleak as it looks at first glance. The peak of the transmitting elevation pattern is probably well above your location because of the vertical stacking of the transmitting antenna bays, and if your antenna is aimed NE at Wanut Grove, the F/B of your antenna will attenuate the Sutro signals from the west.



Larry's situation is unusual. First, he is 18 degrees below the main lobe of the TV transmitters on Sutro Tower. Attached are spectrum analyzer displays of two channels taken on his antennas. You can see that the signal power is far lower than predicted by TV Fool. KFSF is his strongest UHF station and KPIX shows the typical amplitude variation caused by being far below the main lobe of the antennas. The real total signal power for KFSF is around -25 dBm in a 6 MHz filter.

It would seem that a high dynamic range preamp ought to work for him but they don't work as expected. From hams I've known in the city it's apparent that intermod problems are common. I think this is because the City of SF is full of very strong public service transmitters that any broadband preamp has to handle.

What he really needs is a UHF preamp with a bandpass filter just for TV. I've haven't been able to convince him of this yet though. 

Tin Lee makes their UHF preamps with a built-in high pass filter. One of those with an outboard LTE filter would make a good bandpass filter. It's not an inexpensive preamp but when you have a difficult situation you get what you pay for.


----------



## rabbit73

> The real total signal power for KFSF is around -25 dBm in a 6 MHz filter.


Thanks for the confirmation.

Yes, a custom bandpass filter for TV would help a lot to reject interference from the public service transmitters. Unlike a tuner, a preamp has a wide open front end.


----------



## nathill

Rabbit73.

I can not disprove your finding (although your proof is way beyond my understanding) when you say "it is impossible to receive signals with an *accurate* listed Noise Margin of less than -15 dB on a TVFool report."

I think the key here word is *accurate*.
TV Fool can't possibly be expected to give an absolutely accurate listed Noise Margin for every address and TV frequency in the United States, can it? 
I think a more accurate statement (and what I think you have shown) is that " "it is impossible to receive signals with an *accurate* listed Noise Margin of less than -15 dB."
Forget TVFool's best guess as to what the listed Noise Margin is.
I know, and have shown, that I have received on a VERY regular basis channels listed as -15dB on a TVFool report.

Enjoy your work!
Just purchased a Sadelco DisplayMax 800 myself (stole it for $150 on Ebay) and hopefully will have some idea how to use just a small portion of its capabilities.


----------



## rabbit73

Yes, the NM numbers on a TVfool report can be way off, especially for 2Edge signals. That is why I specified for listed numbers that are true. There are people that believe the numbers are accurate.

I also consider the report a best guess, but it is better than no report at all.


nathill said:


> Forget TVFool's best guess as to what the listed Noise Margin is.


Um, is there some other report that lists Noise Margin numbers?


nathill said:


> I know, and have shown, that I have received received on a VERY regular basis channels listed as -15dB on a TVFool report.


You are fortunate, and not alone. That is why I found it necessary to add to the original statement that I had been using:


rabbit73 said:


> If you are able to receive a signal with a NM below -15 dB, either the TVFool report is wrong, or the signal has been enhanced by Tropospheric Propagation.





nathill said:


> I can not disprove your finding (although your proof is way beyond my understanding)


I offer you my apology if I didn't make it clear enough. I tried to include enough data for the newbie as well as the experienced poster.


> Enjoy your work!


Thank you for your response; I learned a lot doing the research.


----------



## rabbit73

nathill said:


> Just purchased a Sadelco DisplayMax 800 myself (stole it for $150 on Ebay) and hopefully will have some idea how to use just a small portion of its capabilities.


I wish you good luck; some eBay items are in better condition than others. I don't bid unless it offers a return, I can fix it, or I am willing to take a loss if it doesn't offer a return.

It is a little difficult to learn to use it, and all 800s are not setup the same way. The best way to learn is just use it. 

Do you have the manual?


----------



## nathill

rabbit73 said:


> I wish you good luck; some eBay items are in better condition than others. I don't bid unless it offers a return, I can fix it, or I am willing to take a loss if it doesn't offer a return.
> 
> It is a little difficult to learn to use it, and all 800s are not setup the same way. The best way to learn is just use it.
> 
> Do you have the manual?


After charging, it turned on and gives a screen that looks just like yours.
Have to assume it's OK for now.

Fortunately, a manual is available with a Google search.
I'm sure you're right, just need to start using it and learn as I go!

Thanks again for all your efforts. I'm getting there....


----------



## rabbit73

> Fortunately, a manual is available with a Google search.


Yes, here:
https://www.tonercable.com/pdf/Display_Max_800_Product_Manual.pdf

and here:
https://assets.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/Documents/Sadelco/dmax_manual.pdf


> Thanks again for all your efforts. I'm getting there....


You are welcome. Enjoy your meter!


----------



## pdbphoto

I am looking for some guidance and to see if I have a problem I can easily fix or something I should just shrug off 

I have a Tivo Romio OTA which is hooked up to and indoor antenna. (No outside stuff allowed in my apartment.) Up until early October I was getting good reception on all channels including one that is rather week The weak channel is a PBS channel from a farther away city and they set up a transmitter in my city, but it by their own admition weaker than all the other local ones. 

I have one of the Flat-Wave antennas that comes with its own booster, which I have plugged in. 

The picture from all the other stations remains good, but the weak PBS picture is now garbled if I get one at all. When I touch the antenna to re-position it the picture improves greatly, but the moment I let go - back to garbled junk. 

Nothing has changed in my setup or in my house. Heck I even unplugged my wifi stuff in the room with the antenna on the offhand chance wifi was interfering with the TV signal. 

Is there something about Fall and Winter weather that might be causing this? I know rain can interfere with a signal, but this problem is ongoing even on a sunny day. 

I talked the the station and they assure me their equipment is fine and they have made no changes to the local broadcast antenna. 

I don't have to watch this one station but at least once a week it has a program that I enjoy. 

Any ideas?


----------



## rabbit73

Hello, pdbphoto

We will try to help you, but we need a little more information to give you a useful answer, like what the sticky thread says:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...all-antenna-threads-tvfool-info-1st-post.html

You can do a TVFool report here. Their data base is screwed up, but the report should give us some information:
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

Which antenna are you using, the FL5500A 50 mi amped?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...as2&tag=antennas04-20&linkId=4GJRHOCMZB5VHN3I

Have you tried the antenna with a TV set instead of the Roamio?

What is the callsign of the PBS station that is giving you a problem?


> Is there something about Fall and Winter weather that might be causing this? I know rain can interfere with a signal, but this problem is ongoing even on a sunny day.


Electrical interference from LED or CFL lamps to VHF signals?

If you don't want to give too much information about your location in this thread, you can send a PM to me.


----------



## Calaveras

pdbphoto said:


> I am looking for some guidance and to see if I have a problem I can easily fix or something I should just shrug off
> 
> I have a Tivo Romio OTA which is hooked up to and indoor antenna. (No outside stuff allowed in my apartment.) Up until early October I was getting good reception on all channels including one that is rather week The weak channel is a PBS channel from a farther away city and they set up a transmitter in my city, but it by their own admition weaker than all the other local ones.
> 
> I have one of the Flat-Wave antennas that comes with its own booster, which I have plugged in.
> 
> The picture from all the other stations remains good, but the weak PBS picture is now garbled if I get one at all. When I touch the antenna to re-position it the picture improves greatly, but the moment I let go - back to garbled junk.
> 
> Nothing has changed in my setup or in my house. Heck I even unplugged my wifi stuff in the room with the antenna on the offhand chance wifi was interfering with the TV signal.
> 
> Is there something about Fall and Winter weather that might be causing this? I know rain can interfere with a signal, but this problem is ongoing even on a sunny day.
> 
> I talked the the station and they assure me their equipment is fine and they have made no changes to the local broadcast antenna.
> 
> I don't have to watch this one station but at least once a week it has a program that I enjoy.
> 
> Any ideas?



Please start your own thread and follow the stickies at the top. This thread is about antennas and related hardware, not reception issues. 

Rain does not interfere with reception on VHF/UHF frequencies. This is a satellite TV issue, not a broadcast TV issue.


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> I added a 30 dB preamp to increase the meter sensitivity to below -106 dBm. The gain of the preamp was verified with the signal level meter and a stable signal from a Blonder Tongue modulator. The linearity of the SLM was checked with fixed attenuators. The SLM has an internal noise standard, traceable to NIST, which the meter uses to check calibration at fixed intervals.
> 
> The noise floor of the measurement system was then -112 dBm.



This is not correct. The noise floor in a 5.3 MHz bandwidth is -106.8 dBm. (5.3MHz is what I see in your image.) That's the thermal noise defined by Boltzmann's equation at room temperature with a noise figure of 0 dB. You cannot go lower than that. What is the noise figure of the meter? You have to add that to the noise floor to get the actual noise floor. Adding an amplifier does not lower the noise floor. If you think the noise floor is -112 dBm then you're doing something wrong.

Let's say your meter has a noise figure of 10 dB. It's noise floor will then be -96.8 dBm. The meter will need a signal stronger than that to see on the display. If you add an amplifier ahead of the meter that has a noise figure of 3 dB then the meter noise floor will effectively be -103.8 dBm even though it still reads -96.8 dBm. 

You can use the cascaded noise figure equation to determine how much gain the amplifier needs to make the meter noise contribution irrelevant. 

You can estimate the meter noise figure by reading the noise level with no input and knowing the measurement bandwidth. For example, my spectrum analyzer on UHF noise level is -102 dBm using a 100KHz bandwidth. Boltzmann's equation says it should be -124 dBm. The difference between those is 22 dB which is the noise figure of the analyzer. Yes, that's terrible but typical of spectrum analyzers.


----------



## lifespeed

Calaveras said:


> You can estimate the meter noise figure by reading the noise level with no input and knowing the measurement bandwidth. For example, my spectrum analyzer on UHF noise level is -102 dBm using a 100KHz bandwidth. Boltzmann's equation says it should be -124 dBm. The difference between those is 22 dB which is the noise figure of the analyzer. Yes, that's terrible but typical of spectrum analyzers.


Which is why a good spectrum analyzer has a switched preamp. You would think even the cheapo analyzers could include this, as sub-6GHz Low Noise Amplifiers cost very little. Maybe the new model coming out next year, or an extra-cost option.


----------



## rabbit73

Calaveras said:


> This is not correct. The noise floor in a 5.3 MHz bandwidth is -106.8 dBm. (5.3MHz is what I see in your image.) That's the thermal noise defined by Boltzmann's equation at room temperature with a noise figure of 0 dB. You cannot go lower than that.


Yes I can, by using a measurement system with a bandwidth of 280 kHz, which is what I did in Test 1. Noise power is proportional to bandwidth.


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> Yes I can, by using a measurement system with a bandwidth of 280 kHz, which is what I did in Test 1. Noise power is proportional to bandwidth.



Okay. I missed that because it wasn't on the display. I only saw 5.3 MHz. The NF with that setup is about 7 dB.


----------



## Calaveras

lifespeed said:


> Which is why a good spectrum analyzer has a switched preamp. You would think even the cheapo analyzers could include this, as sub-6GHz Low Noise Amplifiers cost very little. Maybe the new model coming out next year, or an extra-cost option.



Can you refer me to such a spectrum analyzer? Even the expensive Agilent analyzers I looked at rarely exceed a DANL (Displayed Average Noise Level) of < -150dBm in a 1 Hz bandwidth.

When I take a more careful look at my Rigol DSA815 I can get a DANL of -138 dBm in a 100Hz bandwidth with averaging turned on. That comes out to -158 dBm in a 1 Hz bandwidth. That's a 16 dB noise figure which is better than most.


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> This test confirms the conclusion of Test 1.
> 
> OTA 8VSB signals weaker than -91 dBm can not be received and decoded using additional antenna gain. The noise floor for a 6 MHz bandwidth signal is fixed at -106 dBm. This noise power exists in a 6 MHz channel even when there is no signal.
> 
> Signals weaker than an accurate NM -15 dB on a TVFool report will have an SNR less than 15 dB, and can not be decoded.
> 
> Additional antenna gain can improve the SNR of a weak signal, which is something a preamp can not do. But, if the signal is still weaker than -91 dBm, the additional antenna gain is of no benefit.



I'm having a hard time understanding what you did here so maybe my interpretation is wrong. If you think I'm wrong you can tell how.

I don't believe you are correct. If you were correct there would be no point in having an antenna for DTV with a gain >15 dB. Certainly that can't be true. I think you're confusing signal power at the antenna leads with an electrical field in space. An electrical field in space doesn't have signal power. The electrical field has to be converted to signal power by the antenna. Signal power at the antenna leads is determined by the field strength and the antenna gain.

The concept of noise floor doesn't exist for an electrical field in space. Noise floor comes into existence with any device that generates thermal noise. An antenna generates thermal noise. That's the first place in a receive system where the -106.2 dBm in a 6 MHz bandwidth exists. 

I find it useful at times to think of extremes. Think of a dipole that generates a -91 dBm signal. Now think of a 100' dish antenna. Does it make any sense that the additional gain of the 100' dish is of no benefit?

To show in another way where I think you're confusing things.....

You say, "...signals weaker than -91 dBm can not be received and decoded...." Where is this weaker than -91 dBm signal? If it's at the antenna leads then you're correct. If it's in space before reaching the antenna then -91 dBm has no meaning.


----------



## dr1394

Sorry, your diagram is wrong (specifically the channel 35 example). Antenna gain just adds to the signal, not the noise.

If your theory was correct, we could never have deep space probes where all the heavy lifting is done by the large ground station antenna.

Ron


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> I don't agree. It is true that the antenna gain makes the signal stronger, but the transmitted signal carries with it a ratio of signal to noise that is inherent in the signal because of its bandwidth.
> 
> That is why I am justified in saying a "-91 dB signal" because it is 15 dB stronger than its inherent (built-in) noise floor of -106 dBm for a 6 MHz bandwidth. And that is why I am justified in calling a DTV signal that is 12 dB stronger than its inherent noise floor a "-94 dBm" signal.
> 
> The FCC requires a transmitted DTV signal to have an SNR of at least 27 dB. This ratio is inherent in (intrinsic to) the signal because of its bandwidth without regard to ambient noise.



If I understand how you ran these tests, and I'm not sure I do, you cannot simulate different antenna gains by placing an attenuator between the antenna and the preamp. You have to use antennas with different gains. To run your 15 dB and 18 dB antenna gain tests you'd have to have antennas with those gains and switch between them. I don't see anything that says you did that.

I still think that your error is that you believe an electrical field in space has an equivalent signal power in dBm. It does not. The electrical field induces a current in an antenna that appears as a voltage with an impedance at the feed point. The thermal noise floor also comes into existence at the antenna feed point.

The SNR of the transmitter has nothing to do with this except to place a limitation on the maximum SNR that the receiver can see.


----------



## rabbit73

> I still think that your error is that you believe an electrical field in space has an equivalent signal power in dBm.


If two of you think my SNR test is misleading, I should delete it. I don't want to post bad information.

After reviewing my measurements, I see that they might not provide sufficient proof to support my conclusions.

The main deficiency is the noise floor of the measurement system; it isn't low enough. I need to find a way to reduce it, perhaps with a preamp for the meter that has a lower NF. 

The C/N ratio of the signal at the antenna terminals is not enough to be greater than the difference between the input of the tuner at -85 dBm and the thermal noise floor at -106 dBm, when a preamp isn't being used.
106 - 85 = 21

This makes it unclear if it is possible to receive and decode a signal with a NM below -15 dB.

I'm looking for an equipment setup that can prove it either way, but I haven't found it yet. Maybe I need to include a preamp for the tuner also.

The measurements only from my two deleted posts for reference:


Code:


[B]Weak Signal SNR Measurements, Test 1, Part A:[/B]
[B]Attn    Sony    SLM    Conv#1   Correct  CH 32   Conv#2      C/N[/B]
[B] dB   SS  SNR  CH 33 > to dBm > to DTV   Noise > to dBm       dB[/B]
[B]          dB    dBmV              dBm     dBmV[/B]
[B] 0    76   28   +14    -65 dBm            -29     -108       43 dB[/B]
[B]10    56   25    +4    -75                -33     -112       37 dB[/B]
[B]20    32   19    -6    -85[/B]
[B]21    32   19    -6    -85                -33     -112       27 dB [/B]
[B]22    32   18    -7    -86                -33     -112       26 dB   [/B]
[B]23    30   18    -8    -87                -33     -112       25 dB[/B]
[B]24    28   17    -9    -88                -33     -112       24 dB[/B]
[B]25    28   16   -10    -89        -84     -33     -112       23 dB[/B]
 
[B]26    26   [U]15[/U]   -11    -90        [U]-85[/U]     -33     -112       [U]22 dB[/U][/B]
 
[B]27    24   15   -12    -91        -86     -33     -112       21 dB[/B]
[B]28    22   14E  -13    -92        -87     -33     -112       20 dB[/B]
[B]29    20   13P  -14    -93        -88     -33     -112       19 dB[/B]
[B]30    18    0F  -15    -94                -33     -112       18 dB[/B]
[B]SS is Signal Strength[/B]
[B]E is uncorrected errors[/B]
[B]P is pixelation[/B]
[B]F is picture freeze [/B]
[B]Conv#1  conversion to dBm factor is -79 dB[/B]
[B]Correct to DTV dBm factor is +5 dB[/B]
[B]Conv#2  conversion to dBm factor is also -79 dB[/B]




Code:


[B]Weak Signal SNR Measurements, Test 2:[/B]
[B]Attn    Sony     SLM    Conv#1   Correct  CH 35    Conv#2      C/N[/B]
[B] dB   SS  SNR   CH 33 > to dBm   to DTV   Noise >  to dBm       dB[/B]
[B]          dB     dBmV             dBm     dBmV[/B]
[B] 0    72   26   +33.4   -62.6     same     +6.9     -89.1     26.5 dB[/B]
[B]10    50   24   +23.5   -72.5      no      -9.4    -105.4     32.9 dB[/B]
[B]20    30   18   +13.8   -82.2    change   -10.6    -106.6     24.4 dB[/B]
[B]21    30   17   +12.5   -83.5             -10.7    -106.7     23.7 dB[/B]
[B]22    28  16/17 +11.7   -84.3             -10.7    -106.7     22.4 dB[/B]
 
[B]23    26  [U]15/16[/U] +10.4   [U]-85.6[/U]             -10.8    -106.8     [U]21.2 dB[/U][/B]
 
[B]24    24  14/15  +9.2   -86.8             -10.7    -106.7     19.9 dB[/B]
[B]25    22E 13/14  +8.8F  -87.2             -10.8    -106.8     19.6 dB[/B]
[B]26    MIN   0    NO PIC                   -10.7    -106.7[/B]
[B]SS is Signal Strength[/B]
[B]E is uncorrected errors[/B]
[B]F is picture freeze[/B]
[B]Conv#1 conversion to dBm factor is -96 dB[/B]
[B]Correct to DTV dBm factor not needed[/B]
[B]Conv#2 conversion to dBm factor is also -96 dB[/B]


----------



## jkeldo

Calaveras said:


> Please start your own thread and follow the stickies at the top. This thread is about antennas and related hardware, not reception issues.
> 
> Rain does not interfere with reception on VHF/UHF frequencies. This is a satellite TV issue, not a broadcast TV issue.


I understand your point about rain but I have found that with weak signals that are Edge not LOS when there are heavy rains, I tend to lose those channels temporarily. So if it's not the rain, then what causes that? I know with satellite it's not always the rain that causes the dropouts but the density of the clouds which of course is water.


----------



## rabbit73

jkeldo said:


> I understand your point about rain but I have found that with weak signals that are Edge not LOS when there are heavy rains, I tend to lose those channels temporarily. So if it's not the rain, then what causes that?





jkeldo said:


> The old maps show my location in red or no color as it's lower elevation with many trees.


Wet trees?
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/siting.html


----------



## jkeldo

rabbit73 said:


> Wet trees?
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/siting.html


Thanks for all of that information. I know my reception of weaker signals is usually better in the winter once the leaves are gone but I have heard others who experience the opposite so I'm not sure.


----------



## mattdp

Browsing Amazon, I happened across a few antennas made by REMO, a Russian manufacturer. Of particular interest was their BAS X11102 MAXI F UHF antenna ($45.99): https://www.amazon.com/REMO-Outdoor...rs=15788606011&ie=UTF8&qid=1510967025&sr=8-29

http://remo-electronics.com

It's an X-director UHF antenna with 25 directors (as opposed to the 21 found on a Stellar Labs/Xtreme Signal 91 element model). The driven element looks like a combination X/bowtie. 

Does anyone have experience with it? Can our resident antenna modelers comment on the pros/cons of that style driven element?


----------



## rabbit73

The driven element assembly looks like a 3/4 wave folded dipole driven element with a close-mounted 1st director in front of it. The director is actually a pair of side-by-side directors, as are the rest of the directors. The close mounting is derived from recent computer modeling.










The 3/4 wave driven element was first seen, AFAIK, in a patent by John Winegard. It has two current lobes that justify the pair of directors in front of it. Winegard called the DE a "Tetrapole." You can see the Tetrapole DE in the RCA ANT751 (but not the 7511 redesign) and some Antennacraft antennas.


----------



## Jank77

I have a terk antenna, is there anything better that is more obscure or less visible?


----------



## rabbit73

Jank77 said:


> I have a terk antenna, is there anything better that is more obscure or less visible?


Hello, Jank77

What Terk antenna do you have and where is it located?

If you want reliable reception, the choice of an antenna should be based on performance, not appearance.

Did you read the instructions in the sticky?
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...all-antenna-threads-tvfool-info-1st-post.html


----------



## JHBrandt

Jank77 said:


> I have a terk antenna, is there anything better that is more obscure or less visible?





rabbit73 said:


> Hello, Jank77
> 
> What Terk antenna do you have and where is it located?
> 
> If you want reliable reception, the choice of an antenna should be based on performance, not appearance.
> 
> Did you read the instructions in the sticky?
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...all-antenna-threads-tvfool-info-1st-post.html


I was about to say, it would be better to start a new thread after reading the above post. The TVFool report will let us all know what kind of antenna would be best for you. Also, Terk makes several antennas; we need to know which one you have.

As a general rule, there's an inverse relationship between how "good" an antenna is and how "visible" it is. Unfortunately, the best antennas are big, and most folks (who aren't AVSForum members  ) consider them ugly. If you want the best compromise (which still may not be very good, but we can get into that after you start your thread), go for an attic-installed antenna; then nobody will care how big or ugly it is!


----------



## Intheswamp

What they said about performance versus appearance. Bigger is (usually) better. Terrain (hills, mountains, lakes, buildings, trees, etc., can all affect reception in a good or bad way. Apparently, though, you have a base model that you want to improve upon...but without knowing which model you have it's a shot in the dark recommending anything. 

If you are close to the transmitters and are receiving your channels without too much trouble then one of the clear, flat antennas *might* work for you...they're kind of "stealthy", I guess you could say. If you have a nearby closet you might could put a 4-bay bowtie in there hanging on a wall...it could even be mounted behind the tv. But, even within a room you will find "hotspots" where reception is much better than at other places in the room. A longer coax cable can soemtimes be your friend.  Attics are good places to hide antennas as long as you don't have a metal roof or have insulation with foil backing tacked to the roof rafters basically blocking signals like the metal roof would do.

Start your own thread with location and more information on your setup and I think you'll get some pretty good feedback. 

I'm not so sure that tvfool is working ok. I just tried it and got some funky listings. Here is a link to another station finder that seems to be working pretty good. It will give you information on transmitters...direction, distance, etc., with a map to visualize which direction your signals are coming from: http://otadtv.com/tvtower/index.html

Best wishes. Start a thread. 
Ed


----------



## JHBrandt

To all: TVFool.com is having some database issues. It's still worth putting a link in the first post of a new thread, though.

More details, along with some possible alternatives, here: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...ew-database-has-serious-issue-10-26-17-a.html


----------



## Intheswamp

Yeah, it's been having a problem for a while now. Hopefully it will get squared away soon...it's always been a very helpful tool for everybody. I can't remember the guy's name, but lots of thanks to him for all the hard work that he's put into it through the years!!!!


----------



## Otto Pylot

*Indoor Antenna Recommendations*

We are moving in a few weeks to a new, two-story house. I've always had a roof-mounted antenna in our current location, which is a single story, at about 30'AGL that worked perfectly for years. I'd like to try an indoor attic antenna but have no experience with them. The TVFool report for the new location is attached.


----------



## SFischer1

Otto Pylot said:


> We are moving in a few weeks to a new, two-story house. I've always had a roof-mounted antenna in our current location, which is a single story, at about 30'AGL that worked perfectly for years. I'd like to try an indoor attic antenna but have no experience with them. The TVFool report for the new location is attached.


How do so many people not understand that a screen capture is not the same as a link to their TVFool report.

Here is mine:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=60ed4989f75b87 

I now see that TVFool has made the problem worse with the (Save Image) in red links that put the image on the clipboard and start a program that I did not know was installed.

Bah humbug.

SHF


----------



## lifespeed

Otto Pylot said:


> We are moving in a few weeks to a new, two-story house. I've always had a roof-mounted antenna in our current location, which is a single story, at about 30'AGL that worked perfectly for years. I'd like to try an indoor attic antenna but have no experience with them. The TVFool report for the new location is attached.


Can you post a live TVFool link instead of a screenshot, or is the database problem an issue? Do you just want the nearby stations at 30 degrees, or do you have greater ambitions? Tell us which stations you want to receive. A rotor in the attic would seem unlikely . . .


----------



## Larry Kenney

Otto Pylot said:


> We are moving in a few weeks to a new, two-story house. I've always had a roof-mounted antenna in our current location, which is a single story, at about 30'AGL that worked perfectly for years. I'd like to try an indoor attic antenna but have no experience with them. The TVFool report for the new location is attached.


You should have no problem with an attic antenna with those stations - all the way down to KEVE. They're all in the green and all in the same direction. Should be a piece of cake getting set up there.

Larry


----------



## Intheswamp

Otto Pylot said:


> We are moving in a few weeks to a new, two-story house. I've always had a roof-mounted antenna in our current location, which is a single story, at about 30'AGL that worked perfectly for years. I'd like to try an indoor attic antenna but have no experience with them. The TVFool report for the new location is attached.


Here is another broadcast tower locator: http://otadtv.com/tvtower/index.html

Remember that in the attic the antenna is protected from the elements and can be "hung" upside down from a rafter so as not to have to stabilize it to stand upright as is the usual requirement...gravity will keep it perpendicular. Does that make sense? 

Hopefully the house doesn't have a metal roof nor metalic foil-backed insulation attached directly below the roof sheathing...???

Sometimes multi-path can be an issue inside of an attic. I like bow-tie antennas....a four-bay would probably do you great at the distance you are from the tv towers....even a 2-bay may perform well. But being as you will be running a fair length of coax cable I would want a strong signal at the feedpoint of the coax.

"Fish" around in the attic for a "hot spot". You might want a little extra coax cable available for this. Move the antenna around both horizontally and vertically to see if you can find a spot that gives a strong, stable signal.

Wait and see if you need an amplifier...depending on how much coax cable is required to reach all of your televisions and the number of splitters that you use you may or may not require an amplifier.

Being inside the attic will indeed attenuate the signals BUT at the height and the short distance from the towers you might can get by with a good indoor antenna...it's protected from the elements remember.  But, since it's out-of-sight personally I'd go with a small outdoor antenna. I'd get a cable up there, connect a small antenna, and see what you get...you never know until you do it. 

Best wishes and Merry Christmas!
Ed


----------



## ADTech

> Here is another broadcast tower locator: http://otadtv.com/tvtower/index.html


It is worth noting that the signal calculations and forecasts presented there are useless. It appears that he isn't doing L-R calculations, but, perhaps, a simple free-space path loss set of calculations.


----------



## AntAltMike

Intheswamp said:


> Remember that in the attic the antenna is protected from the elements and can be "hung" upside down from a rafter so as not to have to stabilize it to stand upright as is the usual requirement...gravity will keep it perpendicular. Does that make sense?
> Ed


With the conventional Winegard and Channel Master rotors, you could swap the two motor wires so that the direction of the antennas's movement would correspond to the direction of the controller know. I don't know if that is the case with newer rotors, or if it even makes a difference with digital azimuth position assignments.


----------



## AntAltMike

rabbit73 said:


> QUOTE]
> 
> Note that the funky, Tetrapole elements, variously labeled as parts 12(X), MUST be folded to their open positions to function properly. A lot of us learned that lesson the hard way.


----------



## Otto Pylot

SFischer1 said:


> How do so many people not understand that a screen capture is not the same as a link to their TVFool report.
> 
> Here is mine:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=60ed4989f75b87
> 
> I now see that TVFool has made the problem worse with the (Save Image) in red links that put the image on the clipboard and start a program that I did not know was installed.
> 
> Bah humbug.
> 
> SHF


I'm sorry but I fail to see a major difference between yours and mine, other than you have the color coding description at the bottom.


----------



## Otto Pylot

Larry Kenney said:


> You should have no problem with an attic antenna with those stations - all the way down to KEVE. They're all in the green and all in the same direction. Should be a piece of cake getting set up there.
> 
> Larry


Thanks Larry. Is there an antenna for the attic that you would suggest?


----------



## rabbit73

Otto Pylot said:


> I'm sorry but I fail to see a major difference between yours and mine, other than you have the color coding description at the bottom.


The main advantage of having an active link to a report is that you can click on a callsign to see the terrain profile between the transmitter and your antenna.

I don't think it would make much difference in your case, because your desired signals are LOS and very strong.

Here is an active link to a report based on your report image:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=60eda71c6ef3d4

If KOPB PBS on real channel 48 was important to you, you could click on its callsign and see the profile showing that your location at the right end was behind a hill:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=60eda71c6ef3d4&t=ALLTV&n=25

Reception of KCKA would be even more difficult because of the rough terrain and the curvature of the earth shown by the black arc at the bottom of the profile:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=60eda71c6ef3d4&t=ALLTV&n=26

Here is an extract from your TVFool report image:










and here is a report from rabbitears.info showing the KATU ABC missing from your TVFool report:


----------



## rabbit73

I would suggest the Winegard HD7694P antenna if you can do without KRCW-LP on real VHF-Low channel 5.

You have some strong local FM transmitters that might interfere with the reception of your VHF-High signals:
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/7ec11be9da/Radar-FM.png

A filter can be added if necessary.


----------



## Otto Pylot

rabbit73 said:


> I would suggest the Winegard HD7694P antenna if you can do without KRCW-LP on real VHF-Low channel 5.


Thank you! I guess I don't know how to make an active link. I just assumed, falsely so, that the basic information would be enough for suggestions. All we really want is ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, PBS, all in HD with their sub-channels. I'm not sure what KRCW-LP offers so I guess we could live without that.

I've always had great luck with my 35 year-old Winegard on my roof at this house so I'll take a look at the 7694. The installation will be in the attic space of a two-story so the 7694 will be ok for that, correct?


----------



## SFischer1

Otto Pylot said:


> I'm sorry but I fail to see a major difference between yours and mine, other than you have the color coding description at the bottom.


Start clicking on the Channel names. You will see the "Transmitter Profile Detail".










If you are behind a 2Edge you can see what is blocking the signal.

There is lots more hiding on the Google Map:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90 

be sure to click "Show lines pointing to each transmitter".

The experts always want the link, I forget what else is hidden.

So there is a vast difference between a screen capture including better resolution on the experts screen. A screen capture cuts down the resolution greatly.

SHF


----------



## Otto Pylot

SFischer1 said:


> Start clicking on the Channel names. You will see the "Transmitter Profile Detail".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are behind a 2Edge you can see what is blocking the signal.
> 
> There is lots more hiding on the Google Map:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90
> 
> be sure to click "Show lines pointing to each transmitter".
> 
> The experts always want the link, I forget what else is hidden.
> 
> So there is a vast difference between a screen capture including better resolution on the experts screen. A screen capture cuts down the resolution greatly.
> 
> SHF


Thanks. The error of my ways was pointed out by someone else as well. Guess I just don't know how to post the link instead of the "Saved" screen capture. I did get advice on an antenna based on my minimalistic post though. If you have an antenna suggestion as well that would be great. It won't be until around the end of January that I get to the antenna installation so I'm just gathering info now.


----------



## SFischer1

Otto Pylot said:


> Thank you! I guess I don't know how to make an active link.
> 
> ...


I entered my Zip Code into:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29 

And what popped up right into my eyes at the top was:










Just select, copy and then paste into a post.

SHF

(If this is a duplicate post, I will remove it: See http://www.avsforum.com/forum/43-forum-operations-center/ for discussion.)


----------



## Otto Pylot

SFischer1 said:


> I entered my Zip Code into:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29
> 
> And what popped up right into my eyes at the top was:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just select, copy and then paste into a post.
> 
> SHF
> 
> (If this is a duplicate post, I will remove it: See http://www.avsforum.com/forum/43-forum-operations-center/ for discussion.)


 That's too simple so that's why I missed it


----------



## rabbit73

Otto Pylot said:


> Thank you! I guess I don't know how to make an active link. I just assumed, falsely so, that the basic information would be enough for suggestions. All we really want is ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, PBS, all in HD with their sub-channels. I'm not sure what KRCW-LP offers so I guess we could live without that.
> 
> I've always had great luck with my 35 year-old Winegard on my roof at this house so I'll take a look at the 7694. The installation will be in the attic space of a two-story so the 7694 will be ok for that, correct?


Your report indicates that the HD7694P antenna should be OK, but it assumes that the antenna will be outside and in the clear, with no trees or other buildings in the signal path. 

That will not be true with your antenna in the attic. The signals loss with an attic installation is difficult to predict, because of differences in construction. You will just have to test it.

KRCW-LP on real channel 5. which would require a BIG antenna, would give you CW. If you have KRCW-DT on real channel 33, you would already have CW.
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=KRCW-LP


----------



## Larry Kenney

Otto Pylot said:


> Thanks Larry. Is there an antenna for the attic that you would suggest?


I was going to suggest what others have, the Winegard HD7694P or the well known Channel Master CM4228, depending on how much space you'll have in your attic.

After you move, let us know what your installed and how it's working.

Larry


----------



## Otto Pylot

Larry Kenney said:


> I was going to suggest what others have, the Winegard HD7694P or the well known Channel Master CM4228, depending on how much space you'll have in your attic.
> 
> After you move, let us know what your installed and how it's working.
> 
> Larry


According to the appraiser's report, we have two "storage spaces" in the attic. Both are about 5' x 18' so we'll see. I've always recommended roof mounted antennas (that's what I currently have) so we'll see what happens. Life is full of challenges so this will just be another one. We've been spoiled down here in Evergreen with OTA because it has been dead-on-balls perfect for 30+ years, regardless of weather.


----------



## Otto Pylot

rabbit73 said:


> Your report indicates that the HD7694P antenna should be OK, but it assumes that the antenna will be outside and in the clear, with no trees or other buildings in the signal path.
> 
> That will not be true with your antenna in the attic. The signals loss with an attic installation is difficult to predict, because of differences in construction. You will just have to test it.
> 
> KRCW-LP on real channel 5. which would require a BIG antenna, would give you CW. If you have KRCW-DT on real channel 33, you would already have CW.
> http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=KRCW-LP


Yeah I know. The attic installation will definitely be challenging so we'll see. We have some friends down in the Lake Oswego area, which is about 20 minutes from us, who connected a cheapie antenna on their upstairs tv and got great reception. Location is the key!


----------



## holl_ands

Per TVFool Report above, you have extremely Strong LOS signals and probably no more than 20 dB Attic Loss (unless you have Metal Roof and/or Siding). So I think that W-G HD7694P is overkill and could be a bit difficult to unfold in most Attics. 

Much smaller Hi-VHF/UHF RCA ANT-751 provides about 7 dBi in both Bands should be more than adequate....it even has about 2.5 dBi Gain on Ch5 [which MAY change programming in the upcoming ATSC 1.0/3.0 upheaval], although with high SWR that is probably not an issue with strong signal strength. [Check Walmart delivery to local store or Amazon]

BTW: Although probably NOT needed by OP, 4-Bay Bowtie or even 8-Bay Bowtie Antennas [plus A-D VHF Antenna Kit] are actually small enough to fit in-between Rafters in most Attics....and can be attached to a Rotator mounted via 2x4's attached to either Rafters above or Floor below.


----------



## Neil L

Anyone recognize this antenna? https://imgur.com/cXGHGlG

I salvage this antenna from the trash a few years ago, and have been using for about one year now. It's the UHF portion of a combo antenna. My best guess is CM-3020. What do you think?

Edit: It's been confirmed (on another forum) that this is in fact the front end from a CM-3020. Thanks for reading.


----------



## JHBrandt

Otto Pylot said:


> Thanks Larry. Is there an antenna for the attic that you would suggest?


I know I'm late to this, but FWIW I prefer panel antennas such as the DB4E or CM-4221 or for attic installations. They're just a lot easier to mount in cramped quarters - especially if you intend to put in a rotator.

Those antennas are 4-bays and will probably be more than enough given your strong signals. OTOH, 8-bay antennas like the DB8E and CM-4228 are really good at rejecting multipath, which is sometimes a problem when you can't get your antenna above your neighbors' roofs!

*Edit:* Looks like holl_ands beat me to it!


----------



## Otto Pylot

holl_ands said:


> Per TVFool Report above, you have extremely Strong LOS signals and probably no more than 20 dB Attic Loss (unless you have Metal Roof and/or Siding). So I think that W-G HD7694P is overkill and could be a bit difficult to unfold in most Attics.
> 
> Much smaller Hi-VHF/UHF RCA ANT-751 provides about 7 dBi in both Bands should be more than adequate....it even has about 2.5 dBi Gain on Ch5 [which MAY change programming in the upcoming ATSC 1.0/3.0 upheaval], although with high SWR that is probably not an issue with strong signal strength. [Check Walmart delivery to local store or Amazon]
> 
> BTW: Although probably NOT needed by OP, 4-Bay Bowtie or even 8-Bay Bowtie Antennas [plus A-D VHF Antenna Kit] are actually small enough to fit in-between Rafters in most Attics....and can be attached to a Rotator mounted via 2x4's attached to either Rafters above or Floor below.


Roof is cedar but we will be installing a new roof in the spring which will probably be the new type of composite shingle made for the PNW. Currently we have a metal roof on our home here but the antenna is outside, roof-mounted above the roof so no interference has been noted for many years.

We have a rotor in the current location but have never had to use it regardless of weather conditions so being as the new antenna will be "indoor", if I can get a good fixed location for the stations we want, then I won't need to install a rotor. The idea is to split the signal (like I do now) for the primary tv, which will be upstairs basically on the opposite side of the wall where the antenna will be and the tv downstairs in the family room. The new house has a Dish antenna already installed and two tv's in the locations that we want to use so I'm hoping that coax has already been installed with some sort of splitter so I can identify which cable goes where, and just connect the antenna to the splitter without rewiring the whole thing. The "storage spaces" on either side of the bonus room are 5'x18' so hopefully whichever antenna I choose won't be wider than 5'. I'm assuming I can stand up in the storage space as well.
@JHBrandt - no problem being late to the party. Your suggestions are appreciated.


----------



## SFischer1

If the underside of your roof looks like then "Do not pass Go, do NOT collect $200".










If the underside of your roof looks this, then it is fine for an attic antenna. The shiny side is the bottom of the roof.


Mine looks like the top, that piece of roofing "fell" into my patio and I kept it. 

My dream antenna which the HOA allowed me to attach to their roof after my attic antennas were silenced.










SHF


----------



## Otto Pylot

SFischer1 said:


> If the underside of your roof looks like then "Do not pass Go, do NOT collect $200".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the underside of your roof looks this, then it is fine for an attic antenna. The shiny side is the bottom of the roof.
> 
> 
> Mine looks like the top, that piece of roofing "fell" into my patio and I kept it.
> 
> My dream antenna which the HOA allowed me to attach to their roof after my attic antennas were silenced.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SHF


Thanks for the tip. I take it that's a radiant barrier?


----------



## SFischer1

Otto Pylot said:


> Thanks for the tip. I take it that's a radiant barrier?


Yes, but what it is barring is unknown to me, I have a temperature sensor inside the peak of the roof and I see the same 127 degrees on the really hot days. The peak now has a vent so some of the hot air can get out that way. Maybe Google will tell what it is doing other than increasing the price of roofing.

I have thought about going up in the attic and scraping it off for my Communications receiver. I cannot receive the fires in the Sierras anymore. I really would have liked to heard the traffic for the "Rim" fire. I rode a motorcycle all over that remote area. I did not ride to the end of the dead end road the hunter was on when he started the fire. 

They allow only that method of attaching TV antennas to the facade and not the roof thus no water can ever get in.

SHF


----------



## Larry Kenney

I'm going to buy a new antenna that covers Low VHF/High VHF and UHF, but I can't find the gain figures on them. Which antenna has the best overall gain? Or is one better for one band and another is best for another band? 

Seeing I already have the XG91 for UHF, maybe an antenna that covers Low/High VHF and no UHF would be better.

Thanks for your help.

Larry


----------



## Intheswamp

Larry, I'm no antenna pro but I'll bump your message a little for you. I'm in a rural area and have been working on receiving the semi-distant channels. The VHF channels that I'm working with are full-power and not very far away, htough. Currently I have only bow-tie antennas up...a 4-bay and an 8-bay. I receive the VHF stations but I do get some pixelation from them at times...and the antennas are both angled away from these VHF stations. It looks like K06QM-D /6 is your lowest VHF channel and very low powered, but I'm not too sure how far away. Here is a thread I stumbled upon that might give you some information (or you may have already read through it or participated in it! .... The Official Low-Band VHF (2 - 6) Reception Thread

VHF antennas will be (mostly) fairly wide/broad. Have you got a simple set of good rabbit ears you could test things with? My wife says I'm simple-minded (I don't what she means by that  ) so I start with simple things.


----------



## Calaveras

Larry Kenney said:


> I'm going to buy a new antenna that covers Low VHF/High VHF and UHF, but I can't find the gain figures on them. Which antenna has the best overall gain? Or is one better for one band and another is best for another band?
> 
> Seeing I already have the XG91 for UHF, maybe an antenna that covers Low/High VHF and no UHF would be better.
> 
> Thanks for your help.
> 
> Larry



There are not a lot of choices. I don't think any Low/High VHF only antennas exist anymore. The Winegard HD8200U is one of the few choices. It's an HD7698P plus low VHF.


----------



## rabbit73

Larry Kenney said:


> I'm going to buy a new antenna that covers Low VHF/High VHF and UHF, but I can't find the gain figures on them. Which antenna has the best overall gain? Or is one better for one band and another is best for another band?
> 
> Seeing I already have the XG91 for UHF, maybe an antenna that covers Low/High VHF and no UHF would be better.


I like your new photo; you look very distinguished.

The Winegard 8200 covers all three bands:










The 7084 is also good for VHF-Low, but it is hard to find:










If you decide on a VHF-only antenna, maybe you can find a used CM VHF-only antenna in good condition.


----------



## Intheswamp

Channel Master also offers a few low-VHF/UHF antennas...scroll down to the bottom of this page...Channel Master Antenna Selection Guide

Might find them cheaper elsewhere, though.


----------



## Larry Kenney

rabbit73 said:


> I like your new photo; you look very distinguished.
> 
> The Winegard 8200 covers all three bands:


Thanks to all of you for your input! The charts that rabbit73 provided is the information I really needed. From those it looks like the Winegard 8200 is my best bet.

We now have two stations on channel 2, one to the north and one to the south, one on 3, one on 4, and one that will be moving to 5 when they do all of the channel changes. I think channel 6 will be out of the question - it's low power and 70 miles away.

And, rabbit, thanks for the compliment on the new photo. 

Larry


----------



## lifespeed

Larry Kenney said:


> Thanks to all of you for your input! The charts that rabbit73 provided is the information I really needed. From those it looks like the Winegard 8200 is my best bet.
> 
> We now have two stations on channel 2, one to the north and one to the south, one on 3, one on 4, and one that will be moving to 5 when they do all of the channel changes. I think channel 6 will be out of the question - it's low power and 70 miles away.
> 
> And, rabbit, thanks for the compliment on the new photo.
> 
> Larry


Are any of these channels worth receiving to non-DX'ers, or are they just religious, infomercial, etc.? I thought that most of the "worthwhile" stations were moving to high VHF, which is much more commonly available in an antenna.

Edit: Thanks to a comprehensive listing of TV channels from a certain active group member, I see there is one worthwhile channel; KRCB in Cotati. I currently receive this with pretty good reliability on UHF 23 VC 22 all the way down in south San Jose. It would be sad to lose, but I would have to consider whether that single channel was worth going out of my way for low VHF capability. And one wonders if their transmitted power on low VHF would even allow me to receive it? I guess low VHF is the ultimate for long distance . . .


----------



## rabbit73

What has happened is that when TV broadcast was converted from analog to digital, VHF-Low was avoided because of electrical noise interference on that band. What you saw as white sparkles on analog, became a serious problem for digital reception. It raises the noise floor which reduces the SNR of signals.

As a result of Repack, there has been pressure on broadcasters to move from UHF down to VHF-High and VHF-Low. 

When the FCC calculated the coverage areas for VHF-Low, they continued to assume an outdoor antenna at 30 feet AGL and didn't make a sufficient allowance for the high noise level on VHF-Low.

The only satisfactory answer is to allow an increase in power to VHF-Low transmitters.

I don't consider that a hardship, because digital transmission requires less power than for analog and VHF-Low signals need less power than VHF-High signals for the same overage area.

In areas with rough terrain, VHF-Low is the band of choice because it can get through better than VHF-High and UHF.

Obviously, the HOAs aren't going to be very happy with the wide antenna elements required for VHF-Low signals.


----------



## Larry Kenney

lifespeed said:


> Are any of these channels worth receiving to non-DX'ers, or are they just religious, infomercial, etc.? I thought that most of the "worthwhile" stations were moving to high VHF, which is much more commonly available in an antenna.
> 
> Edit: Thanks to a comprehensive listing of TV channels from a certain active group member, I see there is one worthwhile channel; KRCB in Cotati. I currently receive this with pretty good reliability on UHF 23 VC 22 all the way down in south San Jose. It would be sad to lose, but I would have to consider whether that single channel was worth going out of my way for low VHF capability. And one wonders if their transmitted power on low VHF would even allow me to receive it? I guess low VHF is the ultimate for long distance . . .


Channels 2 (both of them virtual 45) , 3 (Virtual 45 also), 4 (Virtual 12), and 6 (Virtual 6) all broadcast the same 10 sub-channels and are owned by One Ministry. Most of the channels are either religious or infomercials. Channel 5 is presently blank, but, as you noted, KRCB will be moving from 23 to 5 when the stations all make their channel changes in the Spring of 2020.

Larry


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## Larry Kenney

rabbit73 said:


> What has happened is that when TV broadcast was converted from analog to digital, VHF-Low was avoided because of electrical noise interference on that band. What you saw as white sparkles on analog, became a serious problem for digital reception. It raises the noise floor which reduces the SNR of signals.


Right now, all of the low VHF stations here in the SF Bay Area are low power stations, but it's amazing how far their signals travel. Reception can reach out over 120 miles on a regular basis when the receiver is tied to a good low-VHF antenna. The closest station to me is 14 miles away transmitting on channel 4, and I receive a solid signal from it with my High-VHF/UHF antenna combo, but I can't receive the ones that are further away. 

Calaveras also receives the station on channel 4 and he's about 120 miles away from the transmitter.

KRCB, the PBS station moving to channel 5 when the repack changes are made, is 45 miles away and comes in well on channel 23, but I doubt I'll receive it with my present antennas when it moves.

Being a TV DXer, the reason I want the new antenna is to see what other stations I'm able to receive here, and, although we seldom get any skip, I'll be set up to receive whatever does come in.

Larry


----------



## Larry Kenney

FYI -- I ordered a Winegard HD8200U! 

Larry


----------



## lifespeed

Larry Kenney said:


> FYI -- I ordered a Winegard HD8200U!
> 
> Larry


Will it take the place of your 91XG?


----------



## Larry Kenney

lifespeed said:


> Will it take the place of your 91XG?


No, this will be an additional antenna. I'm going to keep the 91XG in service. It'll be interesting to see how the two antennas compare.


----------



## steel guitar guy

I hope this is the right place to ask this question, and hope I am not intruding on anyone's post.
I have ordered a Stellar labs 30-2476 hi VHF antenna for one group of "local" vhf stations[ between 40 and 75 miles, including 1 low power translator]... 
It will be here tomorrow.
I also have a GE 29884 Pro thats currently up on the mast, and working well..
I want to combine these antennas, with one facing the VHF stations I want to strengthen with the big VHF antenna, and then use the little GE facing about 160 degrees the other way, for strictly UHF..
here's the issue if it even IS an issue.. The GE antenna does have a VHF loop folded dipole on it.. Its small, but works very well..
Will this cause any interference with the larger VHF antenna thats say 3 feet from it?

gain is everything here, I am in a deep fringe area,and the last thing I need is ANY reduction of signal, or increase in multipath,noise,etc on either UHF or VHF..

I am planning on using the little cheap in home signal booster I already have, because it works beautifully.. I may try a better mast mounted pre/amp/booster like the CM 7777 this spring depending on what the 30-2476 does. for reception on my weak VHF signals.. 

I was planning on about 3- maybe 4 feet of separation between the 2 antennas... Also was planning on 2 -3 ft sections of coax to whatever type of combiner I might need.. I realize some mast mount preamps have separate VHF-UHF inputs and I could certainly go that way, as long as I knew i wasn't canceling out "good" VHF signal with "bad" VHF signal from the GE combo antenna.. Basically i am asking if there might be any problems using a VHF antenna along with a combo antenna thats just being used for its UHF section.. btw, that VHF dipole on the GE would pop right off with 2 little screws if that would be a good move... Any help as always is well appreciated!... bob


*
*


----------



## Intheswamp

Give it a shot and see what happens. A regular 2-port splitter reversed should do ok for the combiner. If later on you decide to get a mast-top preamp I will say that I tried both a CM7777HD and a Antennas Direct Juice...I returned the CM7777HD and kept the Juice. My main target was a 2-edge low power station at about 48 miles away...both preamps worked ok for that station, though the Juice had just a tiny bit better performance. What was really big, though, was the CM7777HD completely blocked out a hi-VHF station approximately 21 miles away...it may have been a case of overload or maybe something else. In my experience the Juice is good at picking up weak, distant signals and is good at dealing with overload situations.

Best wishes on combining the antennas. 
Ed


----------



## JHBrandt

They used to make UHF/VHF combiners for just this situation. The UHF input filters out VHF frequencies and vice versa, avoiding multipath interference from the other antenna.

Unfortunately it's hard to find one with three F-connectors for both inputs and the output anymore. A lot of what's still available on places like eBay uses 300-ohm screw terminals! But Radio Shack used to sell one that used F-connectors. You can search for those on eBay by their RS stock number, 15-2586. They seem to be running around $15.

Check the photo closely though, and make sure it has inputs labeled UHF and VHF. Some ordinary splitters come up when you search for "UHF VHF Combiner."


----------



## JHBrandt

Intheswamp said:


> I tried both a CM7777HD and a Antennas Direct Juice...I returned the CM7777HD and kept the Juice. My main target was a 2-edge low power station at about 48 miles away...both preamps worked ok for that station, though the Juice had just a tiny bit better performance. What was really big, though, was the CM7777HD completely blocked out a hi-VHF station approximately 21 miles away...it may have been a case of overload or maybe something else. In my experience the Juice is good at picking up weak, distant signals and is good at dealing with overload situations.
> 
> Ed


That reminds me - a while back someone (Calaveras?) posted a pic of a spreadsheet that compared various preamps. Has anyone tested the CM7777HD to see how it compares to the other preamps on that sheet?


----------



## rabbit73

steel guitar guy said:


> I hope this is the right place to ask this question, and hope I am not intruding on anyone's post.
> I have ordered a Stellar labs 30-2476 hi VHF antenna for one group of "local" vhf stations[ between 40 and 75 miles, including 1 low power translator]...
> It will be here tomorrow.
> I also have a GE 29884 Pro thats currently up on the mast, and working well..
> I want to combine these antennas, with one facing the VHF stations I want to strengthen with the big VHF antenna, and then use the little GE facing about 160 degrees the other way, for strictly UHF..


The proper device to combine the VHF antenna with the GE antenna for UHF is called a UVSJ (UHF-VHF-Separator-Joiner). It is also called a UHF/VHF combiner or a UHF/VHF Diplexer.

Do NOT use a splitter in reverse to combine a VHF antenna with a UHF antenna.
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/UHF-VHF-Antenna-Combiners.html










or
https://www.radioshack.com/products/radioshack-vhf-uhf-gold-plated-splitter-combiner











The description for the Radio Shack UVSJ is poorly written, but it is the correct device; I have used it.


----------



## steel guitar guy

rabbit,, Ok, I did see those online , and was kind of aware of them, but was not sure if thats exactly what I needed,. thanks for clarifying that for me. So that will combine the signals ok I imagine.. Much loss in those units?... I can't afford much loss up here,lol..

Now if I went with a mast mounted pre amp, with separate uhf/vhf inputs ,would it do basically the same thing , except boosting the combined signals ?
How about interference between the 2 different VHF designs?.. The dipole just a few feet away should pose no problems?
Just leave the VHF GE dipole on, or take it off?
thanks everyone for helping out,, I certainly appreciate it..! bob


----------



## rabbit73

steel guitar guy said:


> rabbit,, Ok, I did see those online , and was kind of aware of them, but was not sure if thats exactly what I needed,. thanks for clarifying that for me.


That is exactly what you need to combine the VHF signals from the VHF antenna with the UHF signals from the GE antenna. 


> So that will combine the signals ok I imagine..


Yes, it will combine the signals OK. It will pass the VHF signals from the VHF antenna and block any UHF signals from the VHF antenna. It will also pass the UHF signals from the GE antenna and block any VHF signals from the VHF dipole loop of the GE antenna.


> Much loss in those units?... I can't afford much loss up here,lol..


Very low loss, about 0.5 dB (1/2 a dB); that is why I suggested it.


> Now if I went with a mast mounted pre amp, with separate uhf/vhf inputs ,would it do basically the same thing , except boosting the combined signals ?


If you use a preamp with separate VHF and UHF inputs like the RCA TVPRAMP1R, then you don't need the UVSJ, the RCA preamp does the combining for you. However, the combined/separate switch in the RCA preamp sometimes causes trouble. In the separate position, it sometimes doesn't make good contact with the VHF antenna. The fix is to set the switch to combined and use the UVSJ ahead of the RCA preamp to do the combining.


> How about interference between the 2 different VHF designs?..


No interference. The UVSJ will block any VHF signals from the GE antenna. No need to remove the VHF dipole from the GE antenna.


> The dipole just a few feet away should pose no problems?


It should not cause a problem.


> Just leave the VHF GE dipole on, or take it off?


Leave it on.


----------



## steel guitar guy

Thanks very much Rabbit 73.. as always, well explained and well ordered replies that really help clarify things.. I was kind of heading toward the right track, but you steered me right on to it.. Actually, I have high hopes that I won't need a UHF antenna, as some reports indicate surprising UHF response from the 30-2476, even from the back and sides... We'll see, and I will report on my results when I get started.. Might even fool around with it later today just putting it on a 10 foot mast on the deck, total of about 15-20 ft AGL... If it doesn't show some promise on station WNEP from Scranton back it goes, as I just won't have any real use for it,, however that topic is on another thread!.... bob


----------



## lifespeed

rabbit73 said:


> Leave it on.


How are VHF/UHF combo antennae designed, with an internal diplexer to combine the two? If so, it probably does make the most sense to remove the diplexer and VHF dipole, just using the UHF antenna on it's own. No need to add the loss of two diplexers, when only one is needed.

Practically this may not be so simple as I am unsure of how the internal diplexer is implemented, it may be combined with the balun for the UHF antenna. It would probably be easiest to swap the UHF antenna for a 91XG, but now we're talking project creep.


----------



## rabbit73

lifespeed said:


> How are VHF/UHF combo antennae designed, with an internal diplexer to combine the two? If so, it probably does make the most sense to remove the diplexer and VHF dipole, just using the UHF antenna on it's own. No need to add the loss of two diplexers, when only one is needed.
> 
> Practically this may not be so simple as I am unsure of how the internal diplexer is implemented, it may be combined with the balun for the UHF antenna. It would probably be easiest to swap the UHF antenna for a 91XG, but now we're talking project creep.


The answer that I gave steel guitar guy matches his needs and his technical ability. His reception problem is now spread over two threads and some PMs. I prefer to keep the problem all on one thread, but he has decided to ask questions in three different places. For a more complete understanding, you would need to read his thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/2945996-candor-ny-fringe-ota-antenna-help.html

He already has the GE antenna and is impressed with its performance on UHF; he now wants better performance on VHF. If he finds that the UHF gain isn't sufficient, he can replace the GE antenna with a UHF antenna that has more gain.

To a purist, it is true that eliminating one diplexer would give a fraction of a dB additional gain, but I don't think it is worth destroying a $50 antenna to do it. OTA signals constantly vary in strength; sometimes as much as 10 dB in 30 minutes. A fraction of a dB will not make that much difference.

The UHF and VHF sections in combo antennas are combined in various ways. The GE antennas of that type use a true filter type UVSJ. This is what it looks like in the similar GE34792 Attic antenna:



















This is what the diagram looks like in the Radio Shack UVSJ:










The RCA ANT751R (but not the 7511 revision) uses a Winegard Tetrapole that is a UHF driven element and a UVSJ combined.



















The Winegard HD7694P and HD7698P use the CB8269:


----------



## tylerSC

As mentioned, the correct way to combine the UHF and VHF antennas is to use the UVSJ. The Radioshack version works good and passes power for a preamp on the UHF port. But if used to combine antennas before the preamp, then the power issue is not necessary. And no need to remove the VHF dipole from the GE antenna, as the UVSJ will block the VHF signal and thereby will not interfere with the Stellar Labs VHF antenna. The Stellar Labs High VHF antenna should be much stronger VHF gain, but if you need a stronger UHF antenna, then perhaps a 4bay DB4e or CM-4221 will be a better performer.


----------



## lifespeed

rabbit73 said:


> To a purist, it is true that eliminating one diplexer would give a fraction of a dB additional gain, but I don't think it is worth destroying a $50 antenna to do it. OTA signals constantly vary in strength; sometimes as much as 10 dB in 30 minutes. A fraction of a dB will not make that much difference.


It looks like one could simply replace the integrated UVSJ in the VHF/UHF antenna with a 300/75 ohm balun without breaking out the soldering iron. Not a very destructive configuration change.

While it is true UVSJ loss is typically low, there will also be impedance mismatch interactions between the two UVSJ which can have a significant effect. If the first UVSJ can be easily replaced with a UHF balun screwed to the terminals I think that would be the way to go.


----------



## rabbit73

tylerSC said:


> As mentioned, the correct way to combine the UHF and VHF antennas is to use the UVSJ. The Radioshack version works good and passes power for a preamp on the UHF port. But if used to combine antennas before the preamp, then the power issue is not necessary. And no need to remove the VHF dipole from the GE antenna, as the UVSJ will block the VHF signal and thereby will not interfere with the Stellar Labs VHF antenna. The Stellar Labs High VHF antenna should be much stronger VHF gain, but if you need a stronger UHF antenna, then perhaps a 4bay DB4e or CM-4221 will be a better performer.


I agree with that solution.


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## rabbit73

lifespeed said:


> It looks like one could simply replace the integrated UVSJ in the VHF/UHF antenna with a 300/75 ohm balun without breaking out the soldering iron. Not a very destructive configuration change.
> 
> While it is true UVSJ loss is typically low, there will also be impedance mismatch interactions between the two UVSJ which can have a significant effect. If the first UVSJ can be easily replaced with a UHF balun screwed to the terminals I think that would be the way to go.


There is no impedance mismatch between two 75 ohm devices connected with 75 ohm coax.

What you say will work, but it is not appropriate for his skill level; it is for an advanced DIYer.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't agree with you that it is the best solution for him.

It is his antenna, his money, and his decision.

He can do it any way he wants to do it; I have no desire to impose my will on him.

And you didn't thank me for spending my time answering your question about how UHF and VHF sections are combined in different antennae.


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## steel guitar guy

The big Stellar Lab unit has shown a big improvement in strength across all the VHF stations... However, it has not improved my situation.. Stations that were already reliable have substantially increased signal.From maybe 40-45, into the 75 range.....

WNEP is gone - has been for a day or so, and the new antenna did not regain it.. Matter of fact, most all the UHF stations I was getting at various signal strength levels are gone on the GE antenna as well..

went from 27 channels to 17, in a day.. It has to be weather/atmospheric conditions, as they are usually there at weaker strengths because the antenna is not pointed at them... They are bonus channels that I don't key on because they are mostly duplicates, and I am keying on the Scranton stations... 

So I am back at square one.. Big improvement on all high vhf stations, the SL antenna did its job... However, when that signal I want drops out as it does, it is gone, and I doubt there is anything that will bring it in at this point...
I still have NO idea if I am getting WNEP out of Scranton on UHF, or on the VHF translator out of Towanda, mainly because it was simply not there all day on either antenna.. Both were at the same height.. I got on a ladder, and held the new antenna up on a 10 foot mast, actually got it a bit higher than the GE...
I suppose I could try again on a day when WNEP is coming in ok, but this is getting annoying, and I might just learn to be happy with what I have, maybe raise the GE up higher in spring, put a rotor and better preamp on it, and call it good, and watch WNEP when it shows up...

The SL antenna is a VERY well built unit, as good as any and better than most I have seen over the years.. It is NOT "cheap"... Nice wing nuts tighten all connections, and they even added tiny rubber o rings on every machine screw that you run down the threads, so the wing nuts can't possibly back off.. VERY well done!

Not sure exactly what i am going to do with it,, but when that signal dropped out in the past day or so,it was just GONE..

Because all the other VHF signals were stronger than they have ever been by a good margin, and all my UHF is gone or reduced today, I am starting to think the poor signal I was getting on WNEP was indeed UHF.. Can't be certain, but when all the UHF signals became weak, it was gone, at the same time my VHF signals were quite strong.... Open to suggestions at this point.... bob


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## JHBrandt

Do you have one of the UHF/VHF combiners you need yet? Or are you just using a reversed splitter for now?


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## lifespeed

rabbit73 said:


> There is no impedance mismatch between two 75 ohm devices connected with 75 ohm coax.


Only 75 ohms in an ideal world, real implementations of reactive circuits like filters almost never play well together without attenuation, which would be counterproductive. It is indeed sound advice not to series diplexers. Speaking of advice, I don't see where anybody is "imposing" their will. Just sharing ideas and experiences. Of course the OP will proceed as he sees fit.



rabbit73 said:


> And you didn't thank me for spending my time answering your question about how UHF and VHF sections are combined in different antennae.


Good photos and circuit drawing . . .


----------



## lifespeed

JHBrandt said:


> Do you have one of the UHF/VHF combiners you need yet? Or are you just using a reversed splitter for now?


Right, the correct procedure is to evaluate the two antennae completely separate to assess their performance independent of combining circuits. If they are satisfactory on their own, then add the joiner to the experiment and see if that works acceptably or causes trouble. Only change one variable at a time and don't introduce potential problems like two VHF antennae out of phase through a power splitter. Of course that could be a few trips up the ladder, which one would hope to minimize. Lengths of coax that reach to the bottom of the pole might make the experiments a little more palatable. Nobody ever said it would be easy.


----------



## rabbit73

steel guitar guy said:


> The big Stellar Lab unit has shown a big improvement in strength across all the VHF stations... However, it has not improved my situation.. Stations that were already reliable have substantially increased signal.From maybe 40-45, into the 75 range.....
> 
> WNEP is gone - has been for a day or so, and the new antenna did not regain it.. Matter of fact, most all the UHF stations I was getting at various signal strength levels are gone on the GE antenna as well..


It is not clear to me how you made the test. I understand that you got a big improvement in the VHF signals, and that is good. But you said that the GE antenna wasn't doing well with UHF signals. Did you disconnect the VHF antenna and then connect the GE antenna for UHF, or did you try to combine the two antennas? Did you use a preamp? How, exactly, did you connect the GE antenna for the UHF test?



> went from 27 channels to 17, in a day.. It has to be weather/atmospheric conditions, as they are usually there at weaker strengths because the antenna is not pointed at them... They are bonus channels that I don't key on because they are mostly duplicates, and I am keying on the Scranton stations...


With weak signals, an antenna must be aimed at the transmitter. 


> So I am back at square one.. Big improvement on all high vhf stations, the SL antenna did its job... However, when that signal I want drops out as it does, it is gone, and I doubt there is anything that will bring it in at this point...


No, you are further along than square one because the SL antenna improved VHF reception.


> I still have NO idea if I am getting WNEP out of Scranton on UHF, or on the VHF translator out of Towanda, mainly because it was simply not there all day on either antenna.. Both were at the same height.. I got on a ladder, and held the new antenna up on a 10 foot mast, actually got it a bit higher than the GE...


Were you using a preamp at the antenna?


> I suppose I could try again on a day when WNEP is coming in ok, but this is getting annoying, and I might just learn to be happy with what I have, maybe raise the GE up higher in spring, put a rotor and better preamp on it, and call it good, and watch WNEP when it shows up...


Yes, as I told you before, wait for a day when WNEP is strong to make a test with a UVSJ and a preamp to see if it is UHF or VHF.


> The SL antenna is a VERY well built unit, as good as any and better than most I have seen over the years.. It is NOT "cheap"... Nice wing nuts tighten all connections, and they even added tiny rubber o rings on every machine screw that you run down the threads, so the wing nuts can't possibly back off.. VERY well done!


Glad to hear you like the VHF antenna.


> Not sure exactly what i am going to do with it,, but when that signal dropped out in the past day or so,it was just GONE..


Weak signals will vary in strength from day to day.


> Because all the other VHF signals were stronger than they have ever been by a good margin, and all my UHF is gone or reduced today, I am starting to think the poor signal I was getting on WNEP was indeed UHF.. Can't be certain, but when all the UHF signals became weak, it was gone, at the same time my VHF signals were quite strong.... Open to suggestions at this point.... bob


Were you using a preamp at the antenna?


To repeat, this is what I said to you in a PM:
I'm not sure if it is VHF or UHF you are receiving. Since you don't have a TV that tells you what real RF channel you are on, only the virtual channel, make a test with a UVSJ UHF/VHF combiner. (Maybe you can borrow a TV that will show the RF channel in the menu.)

The UVSJ UHF section will pass UHF and block VHF. The VHF section will pass VHF and block UHF. Do it when the signals are strong.


----------



## steel guitar guy

JHBrandt said:


> Do you have one of the UHF/VHF combiners you need yet? Or are you just using a reversed splitter for now?



Antenna was run direct to TV input on a separate NEW coax line. I simply connected and disconnected the individual units, and checked them using separate masts and cables. 

First unamplified, then with the amp in line.. I simply observed the signal strength on the original antenna, and compared them.. The SL is the superior unit on High VHF according to the signal meter on the TV, by a nice margin... As stated however, it didn't help, as the signal I was looking for was not there for either antenna.. It would not even scan today on either antenna, and I have gotten it on every scan for a week .. until today.

So if it IS a VHF signal, the SL antenna will likely help strengthen the signal,, when its there.. However as we know, if there nothing to grab up there, there's nothing strong enough to grab it.. Bottom line as of right now, is I have to wait until the channel is there and almost watchable , and do the same thing i did today.. If the signal strength increases once I can again get the signal, I keep the SL antenna.. However, if is IS a UHF signal, the antenna is useless to me, and I send it back.... or maybe sell it to a member here cheap.. Its a GOOD unit for Hi VHF... It was very primitive A/B test, but they are often the best kind of test.. bob


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## steel guitar guy

rabbit73 said:


> It is not clear to me how you made the test. I understand that you got a big improvement in the VHF signals, and that is good.
> 
> 
> But you said that the GE antenna wasn't doing well with UHF signals...
> Correct,, They were all weaker than they have been recently. By a good margin.......
> 
> 
> 
> Did you disconnect the VHF antenna and then connect the GE antenna for UHF, or did you try to combine the two antennas?...
> No, never combined them.......
> 
> 
> Both antennas were on separate masts, separate coax.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you use a preamp?..
> 
> Yes... same one on both units.. Its in back of the set, and has always worked well,, Thats where I disconnected the separate coax cables to each antenna.. I tried the SL without the preamp as well, and it was better the the little GE with the preamp on Hi VHF...
> The SL would get some UHF when aimed direct at UHF stations , but its NOT a uhf antenna, and does not perform like one, despite some of the reviews
> 
> How, exactly, did you connect the GE antenna for the UHF test?...
> Its on its original mast with original cable, and preamp.........
> 
> With weak signals, an antenna must be aimed at the transmitter.
> 
> Yes well aware of that and I followed that exactly.. Remember, the GE remained in its permanent place..........
> 
> No, you are further along than square one because the SL antenna improved VHF reception...
> Correct, which is good IF thats what i need!.. lol... Still have to determine that unfortunately.. Picked the wrong day it seems..
> 
> Were you using a preamp at the antenna?... Tried it both ways...
> 
> 
> Yes, as I told you before, wait for a day when WNEP is strong to make a test with a UVSJ and a preamp to see if it is UHF or VHF....
> 
> 
> Yes understood, but the SL showed up, and I ran out in the icy cold with it to try it.. My wife was looking at me as though I were lunatic.. Up on ladders in 25 degree weather..
> 
> 
> Glad to hear you like the VHF antenna...
> 
> Yes,,It is quite an impressive looking and well made unit.. The quality level for the price paid is astounding.. WAY better material than the GE... All aluminum, no plastic...
> 
> 
> 
> Weak signals will vary in strength from day to day.
> Aware of that of course.......
> Were you using a preamp at the antenna?... No , at TV only, where its always been.. Not perfect, but its always worked well..
> 
> 
> To repeat, this is what I said to you in a PM:
> I'm not sure if it is VHF or UHF you are receiving. Since you don't have a TV that tells you what real RF channel you are on, only the virtual channel, make a test with a UVSJ UHF/VHF combiner. (Maybe you can borrow a TV that will show the RF channel in the menu.)
> 
> The UVSJ UHF section will pass UHF and block VHF. The VHF section will pass VHF and block UHF. Do it when the signals are strong.


 Understood, but as I said, the antenna showed up on a day when WNEP was just nowhere in sight, and I was hoping it would "pull it in".. It wasn't to be.. I will have to wait until I can scan it again.. Right now, its totally MIA... bob


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## rabbit73

Since your UHF signals are weaker than your VHF signals, it looks like you will need a UHF antenna with more gain and a good preamp right at the antenna.

You are making it hard for us to help you with the same reception problem on two threads, Bob. Your other thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/2945996-candor-ny-fringe-ota-antenna-help.html

Here are your reports from your other thread:


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## lifespeed

rabbit73 said:


> Since your UHF signals are weaker than your VHF signals, it looks like you will need a UHF antenna with more gain and a good preamp right at the antenna.
> 
> You are making it hard for us to help you with the same reception problem on two threads, Bob. Your other thread:
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/2945996-candor-ny-fringe-ota-antenna-help.html


Just to make things difficult, I posted on your other thread.


----------



## steel guitar guy

rabbit73 said:


> Since your UHF signals are weaker than your VHF signals, it looks like you will need a UHF antenna with more gain and a good preamp right at the antenna.
> 
> You are making it hard for us to help you with the same reception problem on two threads, Bob. Your other thread:
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/2945996-candor-ny-fringe-ota-antenna-help.html
> 
> Here are your reports from your other thread:


 Not trying to make anything difficult. Thats not why i'm here at all..
. I was just trying to post in the right place since this is an equipment test, although it IS related to a previous thread..

"Please post your experiences with antennas, preamps, all related equipment, and installation experiences. Indoor & outdoor. To include mounting, cabling, connectors, rotors, etc."

The problem is, see all those AWFUL looking UHF numbers??.. many of them are crystal clear here with strong signals, including WYDC 48 out of Corning which didn't even make the cut.. It simply depends on which way the little GE is pointed,, So although these charts have some value, there are some pretty bad inaccuracies..
The signals it shows as "bad" are more reliable than some that are shown as stronger... 
i could get them all with a rotor or another antenna on the mast.. The main issue is WNEP which is here at times, and simply gone at others.. I watched it
several days, after a month of not seeing it at all,.. Then it gets weaker over a couple days, and today its gone...

I first need to find out where the good WNEP signal was coming from, and then key on maximizing it.. I hoped to do that today, but it was just the wrong day..
I'll try again when the signal comes back... Get it in on the GE antenna where its been several times, and then sub the LS antenna and see if it helps.. If not, them I am pretty sure it a UHF signal I am getting, BUT , I don't get any other UHF from Scranton..
It could simply be I am getting tropo/atmospheric "bounces" at times, and there really isn't a usable signal in the air here for WEPN most of the time, just as they are other very good signals that aren't suppossed to be here... I am spinning my wheels, but still kind of enjoying the hunt... bob


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## lifespeed

steel guitar guy said:


> The signals it shows as "bad" are more reliable than some that are shown as stronger...
> i could get them all with a rotor or another antenna on the mast.. The main issue is WNEP which is here at times, and simply gone at others.. I watched it
> several days, after a month of not seeing it at all,.. Then it gets weaker over a couple days, and today its gone...
> 
> I first need to find out where the good WNEP signal was coming from, and then key on maximizing it.. I hoped to do that today, but it was just the wrong day..
> I'll try again when the signal comes back... Get it in on the GE antenna where its been several times, and then sub the LS antenna and see if it helps.. If not, them I am pretty sure it a UHF signal I am getting, BUT , I don't get any other UHF from Scranton..
> It could simply be I am getting tropo/atmospheric "bounces" at times, and there really isn't a usable signal in the air here for WEPN most of the time, just as they are other very good signals that aren't suppossed to be here... I am spinning my wheels, but still kind of enjoying the hunt... bob


Try a good mast-mounted preamp right at the UHF antenna. You're losing noise margin to the coax cable and, to a lesser extent, the built-in UVSJ at the antenna. With your signal levels you can't afford any loss before the preamp. I am still inclined to ditch the UVSJ in your antenna ahead of the preamp, or simply change to a UHF-only antenna. @rabbit73 had some good observations on preamp selection. An ideal VHF/UHF setup for you would place the UVSJ after the UHF preamp.

Lastly, try a highly-directional UHF antenna like a Yagi to help with multipath, reception coming and going can sometimes be an indication of this issue. You may be right that you are getting tropospheric ducting, but predicted signals may be just strong enough to get 2EDGE WNEP with a good setup.


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## steel guitar guy

lifespeed said:


> Try a good mast-mounted preamp right at the UHF antenna. You're losing noise margin to the coax cable and, to a lesser extent, the built-in UVSJ at the antenna. With your signal levels you can't afford any loss before the preamp. I am still inclined to ditch the UVSJ in your antenna ahead of the preamp, or simply change to a UHF-only antenna. @*rabbit73* had some good observations on preamp selection. An ideal VHF/UHF setup for you would place the UVSJ after the UHF preamp.
> 
> Lastly, try a highly-directional UHF antenna like a Yagi to help with multipath, reception coming and going can sometimes be an indication of this issue. You may be right that you are getting tropospheric ducting, but predicted signals may be just strong enough to get 2EDGE WNEP with a good setup.


 The issue here is NOT UHF for the most part.. Why would I get a high gain UHF only antenna, when most of the stations I want are VHF??..

The issue is ONLY on WNEP as I have stated many times, and our friends here have tried to help me out with... 

The general consensus was that I was not getting WNEP [when I got it} on the UHF band which is 75 miles away..
Most felt that what I was watching was the translator signal on High VHF channel 10 the tower for which is only 37 miles away..
Also on the maps, the translator signal does look stronger here than the channel 50 signal.. Thats why I bought the big SL antenna... It just made the most sense.

There isn't much I can do until the signal reappears, and is somewhat steady, so I can see if it is indeed a VHF or UHF signal...
This station shows up for days, and then is gone for weeks , without a trace, it can't even be scanned by the tuner.. Then its there one day and watchable sometimes for days at a time.. Snow, wind, bright sun doesn't matter.. its here when it wants to be, and gone the same way... I am starting to think its just not a viable option... I am not done yet, but after watching it for a solid week, its simply non existent past day and a half.... bob


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## rabbit73

What is frustrating is not knowing if a signal is there or not, if the tuner doesn't pick it up during a scan. It requires an expensive signal level meter to see if is there and to measure its strength if is too weak for a tuner lock.

*Finding channels missed by tuner scan, Part 4 of 4*
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...-related-hardware-topic-499.html#post22105317

If you are very careful, it is possible to find a good used signal level meter. I don't bid any more than I am willing to lose if a return isn't allowed. I found this one for $75 with free shipping:










This older model was $30 including shipping. Both meters were designed for analog signals, but they can be used for digital TV signals, which are actually analog signals (8VSB AM SSBSC) with digital information.











As you tune through the signal you will hear an increase in noise on the speaker. A digital TV signal sounds like white noise.


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## steel guitar guy

rabbit73 said:


> What is frustrating is not knowing if a signal is there or not, if the tuner doesn't pick it up during a scan. It requires an expensive signal level meter to see if is there and to measure its strength if is too weak for a tuner lock.
> 
> *Finding channels missed by tuner scan, Part 4 of 4*
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...-related-hardware-topic-499.html#post22105317
> 
> If you are very careful, it is possible to find a good used signal level meter. I don't bid any more than I am willing to lose if a return isn't allowed. I found this one for $75 with free shipping:


 Really good observation rabbit,, That is the frustrating thing as you said . IS it there, and I am not getting it, or is it simply not there at all?.. There it was for a solid week, day and night.. Pixelating and dropping about at times , but usually always there for a week straight. Scan always locked on to it until today. Now, GONE!.. Can no longer scan it.. So what to do??.. Not much I can do.. I am thinking its just not going to ever be anywhere near reliable, as you wrote to me early on, if it totally disappears for weeks at a time... Then when the leaves come back in a few months, does it disappear totally until November???... As of right now, I am going to try next few days to get the tuner to lock on the WNEP signal again, and if it does, then try the SL antenna again and see if the signal improves.. if it does i will know what i am dealing with, either UHF or VHF .. However, I must have some signal to see first.. Not going to get too high tech and start buying and learning to use gear I'll never use for anything else.. Not worth it to me.... bob


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## rabbit73

Yes, not worth the expense for most people. I happen to love making antenna signal measurements.


----------



## lifespeed

steel guitar guy said:


> The issue here is NOT UHF for the most part.. Why would I get a high gain UHF only antenna, when most of the stations I want are VHF??..
> 
> The issue is ONLY on WNEP as I have stated many times, and our friends here have tried to help me out with...
> 
> The general consensus was that I was not getting WNEP [when I got it} on the UHF band which is 75 miles away..
> Most felt that what I was watching was the translator signal on High VHF channel 10 the tower for which is only 37 miles away..
> Also on the maps, the translator signal does look stronger here than the channel 50 signal.. Thats why I bought the big SL antenna... It just made the most sense.
> 
> There isn't much I can do until the signal reappears, and is somewhat steady, so I can see if it is indeed a VHF or UHF signal...


I guess I read the UHF channel for WNEP off the chart above? I receive UHF channel 23 at 105KW from 84 miles away with surprising reliability. Yes, you need to figure out what you're trying to receive, general consensus or otherwise.


----------



## steel guitar guy

lifespeed said:


> I guess I read the UHF channel for WNEP off the chart above? I receive UHF channel 23 at 105KW from 84 miles away with surprising reliability. Yes, you need to figure out what you're trying to receive, general consensus or otherwise.


 Yes, correct.. However on the Rabbitears chart, you will see just above WNEP a call sign of W10CP-D.. Thats a VHF translator thats at half the distance of the main tower.. Main tower is UHF at 75 miles away, but the translator is VHF at 37 miles away... Only problem is that translator may be very low power.. 
rabbit 73 included a signal map on the other thread where this started, which indicated with blue/purple colors that the W10CP-D signal was stronger here than the main high UHF channel, so we all figured thats what I was getting, and that may be correct.. The problem is the signal comes and goes with no apparent pattern.. Will be here for a week in all types of weather, day and night, but then its gone totally and the tuner can't even get a signal lock at all.. It is a powerful station, but this is really rugged terrain, there are translators everywhere... Here's the power and height of the main transmitter, but again, its 75 miles through the mountains.. 
Transmitter power 500 kW
248 kW (CP) Height 517 m (1,696 ft)

The VHF signals from the same mountain in Pa. are stable pretty much always.. bob


----------



## Intheswamp

steel guitar guy, how long is your coax cable from antenna to television? You may be actually getting a weak signal at the antenna that could be amplified enough for your receiver to lock on to. Get a good preamp and try it...if it doesn't help, send it back.


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## lifespeed

steel guitar guy said:


> Yes, correct.. However on the Rabbitears chart, you will see just above WNEP a call sign of W10CP-D.. Thats a VHF translator thats at half the distance of the main tower.. Main tower is UHF at 75 miles away, but the translator is VHF at 37 miles away... Only problem is that translator may be very low power.


Tricky problem, but sounds like it is worth following through to the bitter end. Or the end might even be reliable reception. Makes my two-antenna perfect reception quest seem easy by comparison. I'll go on record guessing it is UHF you're picking up, which is worth as much as you paid for the other guesses.


----------



## steel guitar guy

lifespeed said:


> Tricky problem, but sounds like it is worth following through to the bitter end. Or the end might even be reliable reception. Makes my two-antenna perfect reception quest seem easy by comparison. I'll go on record guessing it is UHF you're picking up, which is worth as much as you paid for the other guesses.


 I was convinced I was pickup up UHF as well, but what changed my mind was the fact that Scranton/Wilkes -Barre has a bunch of other UHF stations all broadcasting from the top of the same mountain. all within maybe 1/2 miles of each other. I have never locked on to any of them at any time...Only WNEP .. virtual channel 16...
WNEP IS the "big" station in that area so it might just be that they have more power than the others, and thats why its reaching here at times..

There is just not any way to get good signals in this area for the most part, unless you live way up high on one of the many steep hills.. This is a very hilly, very heavily wooded area for hundreds of miles in every direction. Reception is poor,, You still see gigantic CM4251 arrays on rooftops here...Most people simply went to dish or cable however, as have I... I just wanted to see "whats out there" so I started fooling around with antennas again...

If I wanted to cut down trees,put up a tower, install the best and biggest at any cost, I am sure more could be done, but I simply don't have the energy to focus that hard on it.. Once the weather warms up TV becomes far less important anyway.. I was just hoping to be able to lock in the one station I really wanted, but as it worked out, I picked the " flightiest" station out there to enjoy.. I will keep what I have on the roof up there, and continue to monitor WNEP when it comes in.. If its still coming and going at times when the leaves are back, I will find out which signal I am getting, and try once again with a more powerful antenna, and see if I can lock it in better.. Right now theres nothing for my tuner to pick up... bob


----------



## tylerSC

*Original Channel Master USA*



steel guitar guy said:


> I was convinced I was pickup up UHF as well, but what changed my mind was the fact that Scranton/Wilkes -Barre has a bunch of other UHF stations all broadcasting from the top of the same mountain. all within maybe 1/2 miles of each other. I have never locked on to any of them at any time...Only WNEP .. virtual channel 16...
> WNEP IS the "big" station in that area so it might just be that they have more power than the others, and thats why its reaching here at times..
> 
> There is just not any way to get good signals in this area for the most part, unless you live way up high on one of the many steep hills.. This is a very hilly, very heavily wooded area for hundreds of miles in every direction. Reception is poor,, You still see gigantic CM4251 arrays on rooftops here...Most people simply went to dish or cable however, as have I... I just wanted to see "whats out there" so I started fooling around with antennas again...
> 
> If I wanted to cut down trees,put up a tower, install the best and biggest at any cost, I am sure more could be done, but I simply don't have the energy to focus that hard on it.. Once the weather warms up TV becomes far less important anyway.. I was just hoping to be able to lock in the one station I really wanted, but as it worked out, I picked the " flightiest" station out there to enjoy.. I will keep what I have on the roof up there, and continue to monitor WNEP when it comes in.. If its still coming and going at times when the leaves are back, I will find out which signal I am getting, and try once again with a more powerful antenna, and see if I can lock it in better.. Right now theres nothing for my tuner to pick up... bob


Too bad today's Channel Master no longer makes the big 4251 parabolic antenna. It was arguably one of the best UHF antennas ever made. I have one of their 4248 UHF Diamond yagai antennas in the attic, and it is an excellent UHF antenna. Perhaps rabbit or someone may be able to post pictures from an old Channel Master catalog. Back then their antennas were made in the USA; now they are made in China. And those old designs are no longer made, except for the Advantage line such as the 3020 UHF/VHF antenna.


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## steel guitar guy

tylerSC said:


> Too bad today's Channel Master no longer makes the big 4251 parabolic antenna. It was arguably one of the best UHF antennas ever made. I have one of their 4248 UHF Diamond yagai antennas in the attic, and it is an excellent UHF antenna. Perhaps rabbit or someone may be able to post pictures from an old Channel Master catalog. Back then their antennas were made in the USA; now they are made in China. And those old designs are no longer made, except for the Advantage line such as the 3020 UHF/VHF antenna.


 I had a CM 4251, back in the 70's.. It was massive, and did pull in UHF stations that you would never have imagined were up there.. I installed it on the roof of an apartment I was renting, without the owners permission.. He threw me AND the antenna out!
that was indeed an impressive unit.. There are still a few in use up here.. I know of at least 3 around here... bob


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## JHBrandt

steel guitar guy said:


> Antenna was run direct to TV input on a separate NEW coax line. I simply connected and disconnected the individual units, and checked them using separate masts and cables.
> 
> First unamplified, then with the amp in line.. I simply observed the signal strength on the original antenna, and compared them.. The SL is the superior unit on High VHF according to the signal meter on the TV, by a nice margin... As stated however, it didn't help, as the signal I was looking for was not there for either antenna.. It would not even scan today on either antenna, and I have gotten it on every scan for a week .. until today.
> 
> So if it IS a VHF signal, the SL antenna will likely help strengthen the signal, when its there.. However as we know, if there nothing to grab up there, there's nothing strong enough to grab it. Bottom line as of right now, is I have to wait until the channel is there and almost watchable, and do the same thing i did today. If the signal strength increases once I can again get the signal, I keep the SL antenna. However, if is IS a UHF signal, the antenna is useless to me, and I send it back.... or maybe sell it to a member here cheap.. Its a GOOD unit for Hi VHF... It was very primitive A/B test, but they are often the best kind of test.. bob


Sounds good. As lifespeed said, just change one thing at a time, which (it sounds like) is exactly what you're doing:


lifespeed said:


> Right, the correct procedure is to evaluate the two antennae completely separate to assess their performance independent of combining circuits. If they are satisfactory on their own, then add the joiner to the experiment and see if that works acceptably or causes trouble. Only change one variable at a time and don't introduce potential problems like two VHF antennae out of phase through a power splitter. Of course that could be a few trips up the ladder, which one would hope to minimize. Lengths of coax that reach to the bottom of the pole might make the experiments a little more palatable. Nobody ever said it would be easy.


One other thing to keep in mind. The SL antenna will be a lot more directional than the GE, so for the WNEP translator, you may need to aim it more toward Towanda than Scranton. The towns are 30 degrees apart, and with the GE that probably didn't make enough difference to notice, but with the SL antenna it probably does.

I know it's no fun fiddling with aiming antennas in the winter, but as lifespeed said, nobody said this would be easy


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## lifespeed

steel guitar guy said:


> I had a CM 4251, back in the 70's.. It was massive, and did pull in UHF stations that you would never have imagined were up there.. I installed it on the roof of an apartment I was renting, without the owners permission.. He threw me AND the antenna out!
> that was indeed an impressive unit.. There are still a few in use up here.. I know of at least 3 around here... bob


Those things were legendary, too bad you can't buy them anymore. Sounds like you're in one of those situations that could make good use of it, for most it would be overkill. No doubt you're wishing you'd hung on to it over the years.


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## rabbit73

tylerSC said:


> Too bad today's Channel Master no longer makes the big 4251 parabolic antenna. It was arguably one of the best UHF antennas ever made. I have one of their 4248 UHF Diamond yagai antennas in the attic, and it is an excellent UHF antenna. Perhaps rabbit or someone may be able to post pictures from an old Channel Master catalog. Back then their antennas were made in the USA; now they are made in China. And those old designs are no longer made, except for the Advantage line such as the 3020 UHF/VHF antenna.


Here is the 4248 UHF Diamond Quantum:


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## keeper

So every few years I come back to this thread I believe it is an ask if there are any new antennas that will improve upon what I have now.
Here is what I have-
AntennaCraft upper vhf- largest one - really need to focus on 11 and 12
UHF- a similair antenna but cheaper than the xg91 I believe it is?

So I guess my question is there anything better than either of these two? Thanks


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## Neil L

*keeper*... you probably have about as good as there is commercially available. The VHF antenna is about as good as you will find, but the UHF antenna's gain probably peaks at a higher channel than is currently being used for TV. Still about the only way to get more gain is to make your own or stack a couple of commercial antenna.

That said, if what you have is working, then you don't need anything "better".


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## keeper

Neil L said:


> *keeper*... you probably have about as good as there is commercially available. The VHF antenna is about as good as you will find, but the UHF antenna's gain probably peaks at a higher channel than is currently being used for TV. Still about the only way to get more gain is to make your own or stack a couple of commercial antenna.
> 
> That said, if what you have is working, then you don't need anything "better".


Thanks for your reply. That’s what I thought actually. I have these both in my smallish attic and get good to very good reception in deep fringe. I have elevation on my side. Outside is not an option as my wife and neighbors don’t share my interest in this area. I have always tried yagis but I always wanted to experiment with a large bow type antenna. Also, have the cm 7777 it’s both vhf and uhf. Any improvements on preamps lately?


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## jkeldo

steel guitar guy said:


> I was convinced I was pickup up UHF as well, but what changed my mind was the fact that Scranton/Wilkes -Barre has a bunch of other UHF stations all broadcasting from the top of the same mountain. all within maybe 1/2 miles of each other. I have never locked on to any of them at any time...Only WNEP .. virtual channel 16...
> WNEP IS the "big" station in that area so it might just be that they have more power than the others, and thats why its reaching here at times..
> 
> There is just not any way to get good signals in this area for the most part, unless you live way up high on one of the many steep hills.. This is a very hilly, very heavily wooded area for hundreds of miles in every direction. Reception is poor,, You still see gigantic CM4251 arrays on rooftops here...Most people simply went to dish or cable however, as have I... I just wanted to see "whats out there" so I started fooling around with antennas again...
> 
> If I wanted to cut down trees,put up a tower, install the best and biggest at any cost, I am sure more could be done, but I simply don't have the energy to focus that hard on it.. Once the weather warms up TV becomes far less important anyway.. I was just hoping to be able to lock in the one station I really wanted, but as it worked out, I picked the " flightiest" station out there to enjoy.. I will keep what I have on the roof up there, and continue to monitor WNEP when it comes in.. If its still coming and going at times when the leaves are back, I will find out which signal I am getting, and try once again with a more powerful antenna, and see if I can lock it in better.. Right now theres nothing for my tuner to pick up... bob


I think you said you had a Phillips television which is one brand I do not have. My main set is a Sony which does have an onscreen signal strength meter and it lets you know the actual RF channel. By looking at your posts, it appears your set does not have those features which is a problem as you weren't sure which WNEP signal you were receiving. By chance, do you have any old converter boxes such as a Digitalstream 9950 or a Zenith 910? Both of those have signal strength meters and they also allow you to enter the actual RF channel so you can see if the meter shows any activity. The Zenith box helped me find the best spot for my outdoor antenna (and indoor one also) as when it locks on a signal, it will start beeping and the yellow bar will keep getting longer so you know it's getting stronger. Even if you can't lock on a signal and get a picture, you can see if there is any signal there on that channel as the bar will move in some fashion. The Digitalstream box is almost as good as the Zenith but not as sensitive but I have found that both sometimes get stations that my Sony does not in certain weather situations. So if you don't have an actual signal meter like Rabbit73 recommended, one of those boxes is better than nothing especially if your set does not have an onscreen meter. I have picked up some of these at garage sales or church sales but they are on eBay as well.

Also, I use the RCA TVPRAMP1R amplifier which helps in the summer months when the leaves come back as there are a lot of trees in the way for me. One other observation: when we had this extreme cold the last few weeks in the Cleveland area, that's when I was receiving one distant station I don't regularly receive from Youngstown OH which is about 50-60 miles from my location so weather does play a big part I believe. Good Luck!


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## Intheswamp

keeper said:


> Thanks for your reply. That’s what I thought actually. I have these both in my smallish attic and get good to very good reception in deep fringe. I have elevation on my side. Outside is not an option as my wife and neighbors don’t share my interest in this area. I have always tried yagis but I always wanted to experiment with a large bow type antenna. Also, have the cm 7777 it’s both vhf and uhf. Any improvements on preamps lately?


I had a small, un-scientific shootout between the CM7777HD and the Antennas Direct Juice preamps. The regular network stations are at 21 and 39 miles distant. My target station was a 2-edge independent at low power and ~49 miles distant. The Juice edged out the CM7777HD by *just* a tad (un-scientific, remember?). The biggie for me was that the CM7777HD wiped out a basically local hi-VHF station. Apparently the Juice handles overload better. It is also better at the distant weak signals due to, I believe it is, a lower internal noise level. I had both, kept the Juice, and shipped the CM7777HD back to the vendor. Naturally, the CM7777HD is a different animal than the original CM7777. I like 

But, as noted, if you're receiving everything you want to receive with the quality that you want...why mess with things? 

Ed


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## keeper

Intheswamp said:


> I had a small, un-scientific shootout between the CM7777HD and the Antennas Direct Juice preamps. The regular network stations are at 21 and 39 miles distant. My target station was a 2-edge independent at low power and ~49 miles distant. The Juice edged out the CM7777HD by *just* a tad (un-scientific, remember?). The biggie for me was that the CM7777HD wiped out a basically local hi-VHF station. Apparently the Juice handles overload better. It is also better at the distant weak signals due to, I believe it is, a lower internal noise level. I had both, kept the Juice, and shipped the CM7777HD back to the vendor. Naturally, the CM7777HD is a different animal than the original CM7777. I like
> 
> But, as noted, if you're receiving everything you want to receive with the quality that you want...why mess with things?
> 
> Ed



Thanks for the info. My CM are the older model. With that said do you still think I may see a positive difference with the Juice? I get some breakups on some days that's why I am asking. Not much but I believe a slight improvement would help a station or two.


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## Intheswamp

Ordering directly from either one, I believe Antennas Direct and Channel Master both have good return policies. I know for a fact that CM does. My opinion would be to try the Juice first. I think the old CM7777 with separate vhf and uhf ports is a good one...I've got one at my daughter's house that does a pretty good job feeding three televisions. I think that with digital and fringe reception that we're going to get some pixelation/break-ups...too many buzzards flying between the transmitters and our antennas.


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## Intheswamp

I haven't done a comparison between the Juice and the old version CM7777. The Juice uses more up to date parts and build. You will first notice that it is half the size of the CM7777. If it doesn't improve things, send it back. The CM7777 *is* a good preamp, though.


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## keeper

Yeah there is the juice or Kuntz 500 I could try. Any opinions on which one is better?


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## tylerSC

keeper said:


> Yeah there is the juice or Kuntz 500 I could try. Any opinions on which one is better?


The Kitztech preamps have a lower noise figure which may be important in the fringe. I have found the 200 or the 501 to be better than the 500 which was too overpowering.


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## rabbit73

keeper said:


> Thanks for the info. My CM are the older model. With that said do you still think I may see a positive difference with the Juice? I get some breakups on some days that's why I am asking. Not much but I believe a slight improvement would help a station or two.


You are doing very well with your attic installation and it would be difficult to make significant improvements. 

The proper order of improvements is this: 
1. Find the best location for the antenna in the attic; there are hot spots, cold spots, and multipath reflections.
2. Choose the antenna that has the best gain for the channels that are important to you. Antenna gain vs frequency curves are not flat.
3. As a last resort, switch to a preamp with a low noise figure, like the Kitztech KT-200. It can make a difference with marginal signals. The trade-off is that low NF preamps are more sensitive to static damage, but improvements have been made in the protection devices.
4. If your marginal signal is VHF, consider the possibility of electrical interference or FM interference.
5. With an attic installation, grounding the coax with a grounding block connected to the house electrical system is not required, but it can sometimes make a difference with rejecting interference.
6. Try to avoid any trees in the signal path outside.

You haven't given us the exact model numbers of your antennas, but it sounds like the Antennacraft Y10-7-13 and something like the Solid Signal HDB91X.

The Stellar Labs 30-2476 probably wouldn't be any better than the Y10-7-13. It might be possible to make an improvement in your UHF antenna if your problem channels are at the low end of UHF or they will move down to the low end as a result of repack.










It would help if you told us what your marginal channels are and gave us your TVFool signal report, so that we can make a more accurate analysis.


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## tylerSC

rabbit73 said:


> Here is the 4248 UHF Diamond Quantum:


Thanks for posting that old Channel Master catalog. The 4248 Diamond Quantum was an excellent antenna, and too bad they don't still make it. Those solid diamond shaped elements really seem to pull in weak signals where other X shaped elements may fail. I picked up 2 of those 4248 antennas around 2006 or 2007 at Dow Electronics in Georgia right before they ceased manufacturing.


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## lifespeed

rabbit73 said:


> 2. Choose the antenna that has the best gain for the channels that are important to you. Antenna gain vs frequency curves are not flat.
> It might be possible to make an improvement in your UHF antenna if your problem channels are at the low end of UHF or they will move down to the low end as a result of repack.


Imagine what the gain plot and impedance match will look like once 91XG and similar Yagis are redesigned for the narrower UHF band. It should be a marked improvement for those trying to receive weak signals.


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## rabbit73

lifespeed said:


> Imagine what the gain plot and impedance match will look like once 91XG and similar Yagis are redesigned for the narrower UHF band. It should be a marked improvement for those trying to receive weak signals.


Yes, it would help a lot at the low end of UHF if it was rescaled. 

When the FCC cut UHF TV to 14-51, Antennas Direct rescaled the DB8 to the DB8Ee, the DB4 to the DB4e, and a few other antennas, but they didn't rescale the 91XG. No manufacturer is going to rescale unless they can make a profit on the new design.


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## lifespeed

rabbit73 said:


> No manufacturer is going to rescale unless they can make a profit on the new design.


The first mfg to rescale will have a competitive advantage. Customers may be in the antenna market again due to the VHF repopulation. I am optimistic for both ATSC 3.0 and better antennae, we'll see.


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## holl_ands

Note that the DB-8e vs 91XG comparison plots Antenna Modeling Results posted by A-D....wherein A-D note says that DB-8e Gain does NOT include the Loss in the 2-Port RF Combiner....so the differences are Less. Hence the Actual Loss is at Least 0.5 dB Higher on Lower UHF Channels and likely 1.0+ dB on the Upper UHF Channels. The CM4228HD is roughly the Same or Better, depending on Frequency....and W-G Combo Antennas have significant more Gain on the Lower UHF Channels:










The easiest way to get more Gain is to Stack TWO Identical Antennas [preferably with Loss-Less HHH or HVH rather than Lossy RF Combiner]. Vertical Stacking yields Same Beamwidth, whereas Horizontal Stacking yields Narrower Beamwidth that MAY be useful to suppress Co-Channel and other Interference....but makes aiming more difficult: [Click on "ANTENNA SIMULATIONS" below for more info.]










PS: 8-Ft C-Band Dish re-purposed for UHF would likely be a bit higher Gain as my 2xFF6 (V-Stk 6-Bay Bowties).


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## rabbit73

holl_ands said:


> Note that the DB-8e vs 91XG comparison plots Antenna Modeling Results posted by A-D....wherein A-D note says that DB-8e Gain does NOT include the Loss in the 2-Port RF Combiner....so the differences are Less. Hence the Actual Loss is at Least 0.5 dB Higher on Lower UHF Channels and likely 1.0+ dB on the Upper UHF Channels. The CM4228HD is roughly the Same or Better, depending on Frequency....:


Thank you; I have revised my diagram.









　
Now, how do we get the peaks of the gain curves moved down by the antenna manufacturers?



> and W-G Combo Antennas have significant more Gain on the Lower UHF Channels


I hadn't noticed that before.


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## steel guitar guy

I had decided to install an RCA preamp this spring.. Cheap, good performance, and has separate uhf/vhf inputs which I need.. However upon doing a lot of reading of owner reviews and complaints on the RCA preamps, one major issue thats one of the more commonly mentioned has me worried.. It seems these things refuse to work for many owners once the outdoor temps drop below about 25 degrees F... All signal is gone until the temp goes up, and then it acts as if there's no problem at all.. Since it can get that cold here about 9 months out of the year, I am not sure if this is something I want to deal with at all, and may want to just continue using indoor "signal boosters" which aren't perfect but have worked ok for me thus far... Maybe someone that lives in a cold climate has some experience with this and can reassure me.. 
For my upcoming spring install I have my antennas,masts, heavy duty J mount, coax , all ready to go, and the pre amp was next, but I am starting to rethink this issue.. it HAS to work in cold weather as thats mostly what we deal with around here from late sept, well into May... bob


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## JHBrandt

The *old* version of the CM7777 preamp had separate UHF and VHF inputs, and in fact looked a lot like the RCA preamp, but I never had trouble with mine on cold days. (Of course we don't get nearly as many cold days down here in Texas as you do, but we do get a few each winter, such as this week.)

Unfortunately Channel Master changed the CM7777 and the new version no longer has separate inputs. Neither does the CM7777HD "Amplify" preamp. You would need a UVSJ of some sort with either of the new ones.

But you may be able to find an old 7777 on eBay. Just make sure to check its photo for three RF connectors (two inputs and one output).


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## lifespeed

There is no advantage integrating the UVSJ into the preamp, it just limits your choices. Any electronics manufacturer worth their salt will have tested their devices over temperature, if they haven't of course you don't want to use their products. They should be able to tell you this if you enquire.


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## jkeldo

steel guitar guy said:


> I had decided to install an RCA preamp this spring.. Cheap, good performance, and has separate uhf/vhf inputs which I need.. However upon doing a lot of reading of owner reviews and complaints on the RCA preamps, one major issue thats one of the more commonly mentioned has me worried.. It seems these things refuse to work for many owners once the outdoor temps drop below about 25 degrees F... All signal is gone until the temp goes up, and then it acts as if there's no problem at all.. Since it can get that cold here about 9 months out of the year, I am not sure if this is something I want to deal with at all, and may want to just continue using indoor "signal boosters" which aren't perfect but have worked ok for me thus far... Maybe someone that lives in a cold climate has some experience with this and can reassure me..
> For my upcoming spring install I have my antennas,masts, heavy duty J mount, coax , all ready to go, and the pre amp was next, but I am starting to rethink this issue.. it HAS to work in cold weather as thats mostly what we deal with around here from late sept, well into May... bob


Last winter in Cleveland, it went down to near -10 one night and no issues with my RCA. Since Christmas, it has been around 5-10 degrees many nights and no issues. But -25 is something I don't recall ever experiencing over here.


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## jkeldo

steel guitar guy said:


> I had decided to install an RCA preamp this spring.. Cheap, good performance, and has separate uhf/vhf inputs which I need.. However upon doing a lot of reading of owner reviews and complaints on the RCA preamps, one major issue thats one of the more commonly mentioned has me worried.. It seems these things refuse to work for many owners once the outdoor temps drop below about 25 degrees F... All signal is gone until the temp goes up, and then it acts as if there's no problem at all.. Since it can get that cold here about 9 months out of the year, I am not sure if this is something I want to deal with at all, and may want to just continue using indoor "signal boosters" which aren't perfect but have worked ok for me thus far... Maybe someone that lives in a cold climate has some experience with this and can reassure me..
> For my upcoming spring install I have my antennas,masts, heavy duty J mount, coax , all ready to go, and the pre amp was next, but I am starting to rethink this issue.. it HAS to work in cold weather as thats mostly what we deal with around here from late sept, well into May... bob


One other thing, I recalled reading about one person who bought five of those RCA preamps and one had an issue. It is in this thread, post 23 :

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/1794290-rca-tvpramp1r-preamp-technical-review.html

So it's possible that the person who mentioned the cold weather issue had a bad circuit board. I also have a Radio Shack amplified antenna which has been up since 2008 or 2009 and it has worked fine as well. For the price of the RCA, it doesn't hurt to try one maybe with an antenna not on your mast now to see how it works in the winter before permanently mounting it.


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## steel guitar guy

jkeldo said:


> Last winter in Cleveland, it went down to near -10 one night and no issues with my RCA. Since Christmas, it has been around 5-10 degrees many nights and no issues. But -25 is something I don't recall ever experiencing over here.


 Good to know, I'll give it a shot.. I am not worried about the $25, more worried about it crapping out up on a frozen pole on a snow covered roof at minus 10 in the middle of january..``
I have been here in the Finger Lakes region of NY state since 1991. I have seen it as cold as -30 a few times, and - 20 several times.. it gets -10 every year, and plain old 0 F is a normal temp any night from Dec through April .. On the flip side, there are summers where we barely touch 90, and seldom do you need the A/C on at night in July and August.. Also we get the most rain and sunless days of any area in the US outside of Seattle Washington, and a LOT of wind all year as well.. Thats the price we pay for living downwind of the Great Lakes.. Outdoor antenna systems, and related gear take a pounding in this area, as do roofs, sidewalks, roads etc... 
I may install the preamp under an eve instead of on the mast, to keep it out of the weather... Somewhat longer coax lead , maybe 15 feet instead of 3 or 4 feet, , but I think it will increase the service life of the outside preamp... any thoughts?...bob


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## jkeldo

steel guitar guy said:


> Good to know, I'll give it a shot.. I am not worried about the $25, more worried about it crapping out up on a frozen pole on a snow covered roof at minus 10 in the middle of january..``
> I have been here in the Finger Lakes region of NY state since 1991. I have seen it as cold as -30 a few times, and - 20 several times.. it gets -10 every year, and plain old 0 F is a normal temp any night from Dec through April .. On the flip side, there are summers where we barely touch 90, and seldom do you need the A/C on at night in July and August.. Also we get the most rain and sunless days of any area in the US outside of Seattle Washington, and a LOT of wind all year as well.. Thats the price we pay for living downwind of the Great Lakes.. Outdoor antenna systems, and related gear take a pounding in this area, as do roofs, sidewalks, roads etc...
> I may install the preamp under an eve instead of on the mast, to keep it out of the weather... Somewhat longer coax lead , maybe 15 feet instead of 3 or 4 feet, , but I think it will increase the service life of the outside preamp... any thoughts?...bob


Generally, the shorter the coax from the antenna to the amp, the better. But whether it's under a protected area or not, you still have the cold to deal with. I have only had the RCA amp two or three years so I can't say how long it will last but the Radio Shack antenna has been up eight or nine years and still works so I think the amps are made pretty well. I also have one of those Oregon Scientific weather units and it is around ten years old and it still works. So if the product is designed properly, I think it should hold up. But your winters sound really cold so that could be a factor.


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## lifespeed

Here is a cable loss calculator. Looks like 15' adds about 0.8dB loss, which adds to the noise figure when it is ahead of the amp.


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## statmanmi

steel guitar guy said:


> I had decided to install an RCA preamp this spring.. Cheap, good performance, and has separate uhf/vhf inputs which I need.. However upon doing a lot of reading of owner reviews and complaints on the RCA preamps, one major issue thats one of the more commonly mentioned has me worried.. It seems these things refuse to work for many owners once the outdoor temps drop below about 25 degrees F... All signal is gone until the temp goes up, and then it acts as if there's no problem at all.. Since it can get that cold here about 9 months out of the year, I am not sure if this is something I want to deal with at all, and may want to just continue using indoor "signal boosters" which aren't perfect but have worked ok for me thus far... Maybe someone that lives in a cold climate has some experience with this and can reassure me..
> For my upcoming spring install I have my antennas,masts, heavy duty J mount, coax , all ready to go, and the pre amp was next, but I am starting to rethink this issue.. it HAS to work in cold weather as thats mostly what we deal with around here from late sept, well into May... bob


I'll advise that here NE of Grand Rapids, MI, the RCA Preamp that I installed in September is surviving our cold snaps over the last few weeks. 

When I left for work on 12/26, it was -17 F (yes, negative seventeen...actual air temperature) at "eye level". (Didn't I hear once that "official temps." are taken at 5 foot above ground...but I digress.) The next morning was warmer, as it was only -15 F (whoopee!). We easily went a full week without ever getting to 25 F. Looking back on the history tab on a weather site for a nearby weather station, that shows only 21 F as a high from 12/24 through 1/6. So if sustained cold was going to do in the RCA within these first few months of use, it didn't for me. 

The mast-mounted preamp unit is actually 30 or so feet above ground level, estimated by the length of ground wire I put in place. It's on the mast between the two sections of a Clearstream 4V, as I found having the VHF dipole angled differently (and thus zip-tied separately lower on the mast) helped with obtaining consistently strong signals from the 5 Hi-VHF's I was after. So yes, I'm also utilizing the separate VHF/UHF inputs successfully.

The concern I've had float through my mind about temperatures and the RCA Preamp has been with my having the power injector in the garage. A couple of mornings the car's dashboard has displayed 7 F (above) after warming it up just a bit and before backing out. I may move the wall wart and inline unit into the lower level utility room in warmer weather, although that'll extend the length the DC has to travel by another 40+ feet, and I might need to wire an additional AC outlet. 

Like Steel Guitar Guy noted, I figured I'd start with this preamp, since it was readily obtainable at Menards in our area for $25 full price (and often $20 on sale). If the power injector does fail on me while the garage roof is off-limits, I'll just spend another $25 on the same thing to get things operational again. At some point I might just upgrade to a Kitz, though, as there are a couple more transmissions that it'd be fun to receive (that provide diginets that I'm not yet obtaining from closer by).


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## mattdp

I've had a number of RCA TVPRAMP1Rs and TVPRAMP1Zs in service for multiple years here in central Minnesota (where we do get -20s and worse) and had zero temperature-related issues. Some years ago, I did have one 1R unit where it would sporadically cut out (in fall temps). Swapped it and that unit is still working today.

I think they had some minor manufacturing issues that got straightened out. Over a year ago, they changed the model to 1Z.


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## steel guitar guy

Thats the information I was looking for.. Thanks very much.. I will stick with my original plan and try the RCA.. I appreciate your reply!... bob


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## mattdp

One quick thought: Temperature related failure might be a slight contraction of the circuit board/components, causing a solder joint to fail. Pulling apart a unit and re-flowing the joints with a soldering pen might do the trick. This is probably exacerbated by the lead-free solder they use today.

I once acquired a CRT TV where the blue color was missing until the set had been on for 20 minutes. I pulled the unit apart and couldn't find any visual flaws in the PCB or solder joints. I re-flowed the whole thing anyway. That did the trick - I put it back together and it worked just fine.


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## Intheswamp

What mattdp said has been going through my head. We had an '03 Ford Expedition that the overhead LED temperature, etc., console had gone black. I took it down and "touched" all the solder points and it went back to working as good as new. The temperature sensor was at the top of the vehicle and apparently subjected to extremes of heat and cold. A marginal solder joint will definitely create a hard to find problem. But, I understand your concerns steel guitar man...if you have a problem and need to reflow the solder the preamp will be atop a frozen pole. Not optimal, but maybe you could install the preamp at a lower height...a longer than normal coax jumper from the antenna to the preamp...?? That way you could reach it more easily should something happen during frozen conditions...try it for a winter and if it works well with no problem move it up a foot or so away from the antenna and use a barrel connector to splice the coax together. Just a thought. 

Ed


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## bugtussle

steel guitar guy said:


> Good to know, I'll give it a shot.. I am not worried about the $25, more worried about it crapping out up on a frozen pole on a snow covered roof at minus 10 in the middle of january..``
> I have been here in the Finger Lakes region of NY state since 1991. I have seen it as cold as -30 a few times, and - 20 several times.. it gets -10 every year, and plain old 0 F is a normal temp any night from Dec through April .. On the flip side, there are summers where we barely touch 90, and seldom do you need the A/C on at night in July and August.. Also we get the most rain and sunless days of any area in the US outside of Seattle Washington, and a LOT of wind all year as well.. Thats the price we pay for living downwind of the Great Lakes.. Outdoor antenna systems, and related gear take a pounding in this area, as do roofs, sidewalks, roads etc...
> I may install the preamp under an eve instead of on the mast, to keep it out of the weather... Somewhat longer coax lead , maybe 15 feet instead of 3 or 4 feet, , but I think it will increase the service life of the outside preamp... any thoughts?...bob


You might think about trying a small weatherproof box for the preamp on the mast. I'm using the same RCA TVPRA...... as you. I just drilled and filed out some slots in the face of the box flush with the rubber sealed lid and with a little silicone, it's really watertight and cheap.


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## Larry Kenney

Hey Bugtussle, that third picture is a really neat shot. I like it!


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## jkeldo

statmanmi said:


> I'll advise that here NE of Grand Rapids, MI, the RCA Preamp that I installed in September is surviving our cold snaps over the last few weeks.
> 
> When I left for work on 12/26, it was -17 F (yes, negative seventeen...actual air temperature) at "eye level". (Didn't I hear once that "official temps." are taken at 5 foot above ground...but I digress.) The next morning was warmer, as it was only -15 F (whoopee!). We easily went a full week without ever getting to 25 F. Looking back on the history tab on a weather site for a nearby weather station, that shows only 21 F as a high from 12/24 through 1/6. So if sustained cold was going to do in the RCA within these first few months of use, it didn't for me.
> 
> The mast-mounted preamp unit is actually 30 or so feet above ground level, estimated by the length of ground wire I put in place. It's on the mast between the two sections of a Clearstream 4V, as I found having the VHF dipole angled differently (and thus zip-tied separately lower on the mast) helped with obtaining consistently strong signals from the 5 Hi-VHF's I was after. So yes, I'm also utilizing the separate VHF/UHF inputs successfully.
> 
> The concern I've had float through my mind about temperatures and the RCA Preamp has been with my having the power injector in the garage. A couple of mornings the car's dashboard has displayed 7 F (above) after warming it up just a bit and before backing out. I may move the wall wart and inline unit into the lower level utility room in warmer weather, although that'll extend the length the DC has to travel by another 40+ feet, and I might need to wire an additional AC outlet.
> 
> Like Steel Guitar Guy noted, I figured I'd start with this preamp, since it was readily obtainable at Menards in our area for $25 full price (and often $20 on sale). If the power injector does fail on me while the garage roof is off-limits, I'll just spend another $25 on the same thing to get things operational again. At some point I might just upgrade to a Kitz, though, as there are a couple more transmissions that it'd be fun to receive (that provide diginets that I'm not yet obtaining from closer by).


The only problem I had with one of mine was with the power injector where I had either dropped the unit or twisted the cable too hard, and it came apart. RCA could have made that part better like some of the older Radio Shack models which have a heavy duty case for the indoor part.

As for your installation, I had a similar problem at a relative's house as I was going to plug in the signal injector for a Radio Shack antenna in a ventilated, unfinished attic space but the temperatures in the summer were quite hot and winter was very cold. So it eventually was plugged in an area of the basement where the splitter was for four televisions. My understanding of these units is that it's best to have the power injector closest to the television so that there is minimal cable loss of the signal. A longer run which starts from the tv might cause some DC voltage loss, but I recall one person said that it tested higher than the output on the power adapter. I guess it depends on how hard it would be to wire it all up. I have a short cable run of around twenty feet so I can't say how important the placement of the power injector is but mine goes right into the tv.


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## rabbit73

jkeldo said:


> The only problem I had with one of mine was with the power injector where I had either dropped the unit or twisted the cable too hard, and it came apart. RCA could have made that part better like some of the older Radio Shack models which have a heavy duty case for the indoor part.


It is cheaply made.



> My understanding of these units is that it's best to have the power injector closest to the television so that there is minimal cable loss of the signal.


If the total distance from the antenna to the TV remains the same, then the signal loss remains the same, so it doesn't matter where the power inserter is located. 


> A longer run which starts from the tv might cause some DC voltage loss


That is true. The voltage at the upper end of the coax where it connects to the preamp is important. This voltage must be measured when the preamp is connected, which is called voltage under load. To measure the voltage under load, you need access to the center conductor. I use a T-adapter for that.




















The voltage at the preamp will be less than the voltage out of the power inserter because of the voltage drop in the coax.

When troubleshooting the RCA TVPRAMP1R, first measure the voltage at the output of the power inserter/injector:










next, measure the voltage at the upper end of the coax that connects to the preamp:










and finally, measure the voltage under load at the preamp with the T-Adapter as shown above.


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## jkeldo

rabbit73 said:


> It is cheaply made.
> 
> If the total distance from the antenna to the TV remains the same, then the signal loss remains the same, so it doesn't matter where the power inserter is located.
> That is true. The voltage at the upper end of the coax where it connects to the preamp is important. This voltage must be measured when the preamp is connected, which is called voltage under load. To measure the voltage under load, you need access to the center conductor. I use a T-adapter for that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The voltage at the preamp will be less than the voltage out of the power inserter because of the voltage drop in the coax.
> 
> When troubleshooting the RCA TVPRAMP1R, first measure the voltage at the output of the power inserter/injector:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> next, measure the voltage at the upper end of the coax that connects to the preamp:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and finally, measure the voltage under load at the preamp with the T-Adapter as shown above.


Thanks for that information and for the detailed explanation regarding the voltage test.


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## nathill

steel guitar guy said:


> I had decided to install an RCA preamp this spring.. Cheap, good performance, and has separate uhf/vhf inputs which I need.. However upon doing a lot of reading of owner reviews and complaints on the RCA preamps, one major issue thats one of the more commonly mentioned has me worried.. It seems these things refuse to work for many owners once the outdoor temps drop below about 25 degrees F... All signal is gone until the temp goes up, and then it acts as if there's no problem at all.. Since it can get that cold here about 9 months out of the year, I am not sure if this is something I want to deal with at all, and may want to just continue using indoor "signal boosters" which aren't perfect but have worked ok for me thus far... Maybe someone that lives in a cold climate has some experience with this and can reassure me..
> For my upcoming spring install I have my antennas,masts, heavy duty J mount, coax , all ready to go, and the pre amp was next, but I am starting to rethink this issue.. it HAS to work in cold weather as thats mostly what we deal with around here from late sept, well into May... bob


Mine worked last week when it got down to ten below zero. Have never had a problem in cold weather.


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## bugtussle

Larry Kenney said:


> Hey Bugtussle, that third picture is a really neat shot. I like it!


Thanks Larry. This has been a good setup for me. I live in a valley with a big hill two miles to the north of me. I get Ch 8 PBS that is located 80 miles south of me from a reflection off that hill. I've had this large Winegard VHF antenna since the early 80's. I don't know the model # but know that is 16' long and 12' wide and the largest one they made at that time. It's held up well over the years.


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## lifespeed

jkeldo said:


> A longer run which starts from the tv might cause some DC voltage loss, but I recall one person said that it tested higher than the output on the power adapter.


If your particular installation details dictate a power injector location a great distance from the preamp/antenna simply install solid copper conductor RG6 to minimize DC loss instead of the cheaper copper-plated steel. It carries a slight cost premium and you will need to deliberately order this type, but it is readily available. IMHO, solid copper RG6 is appropriate for any preamp installation regardless of cable length simply to reduce galvanic corrosion resulting from dissimilar metals carrying large currents.


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## steel guitar guy

lifespeed said:


> If your particular installation details dictate a power injector location a great distance from the preamp/antenna simply install solid copper conductor RG6 to minimize DC loss instead of the cheaper copper-plated steel. It carries a slight cost premium and you will need to deliberately order this type, but it is readily available. IMHO, solid copper RG6 is appropriate for any preamp installation regardless of cable length simply to reduce galvanic corrosion resulting from dissimilar metals carrying large currents.



Honest question- What is considered long, indicating using solid copper coax?. I was think of using solid copper quad shield on my upcoming spring install.. It seems fairly reasonable actually, .. However I have talked to a local electronics store owner that did OTA installs for many years, and he said any difference in loss would be minimal at "normal distances" what ever that is.. Is a long coax lead 50 feet? 100?... 100+??.. 25 or more?? 200 or more?.. I really have no idea..

I have yet to decide on the exact location I am going to use.. All of them have issues... Trees, BIG trees everywhere,, and I must direct the antenna directly into my house power line, as well as the main high tension lines that power the entire street.. .. They are only maybe 25 feet from the antenna, and yes I know how VERY careful I must be.. Its so close to the power lines i may use another area thats a LOT more problematic in getting height , but is a lot safer.. In any case, I will need about a 50 foot run, at the first location, and around 100 at the second, "safer" location.. Is quad shielded copper of any benefit in my case??... bob


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## JHBrandt

There's a helpful graph of cable loss here: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/glossaryA.html#coaxial. This shows loss per 100 feet.

Note that loss goes up with frequency. Currently the UHF band tops out around 700 MHz (RF 51). After repacking it will top out closer to 600 MHz (RF 36). At those frequencies the loss over a 100-foot run of RG-6 is significant. That's why most of your cable needs to come after your preamp.

A lower-noise preamp can compensate somewhat for a longer cable run in front of the preamp. A lower signal means a lower S/N ratio, but a lower noise figure means a higher one, so they cancel out. But the preamp's noise figure can only go so low....

To compute the loss over shorter runs, simply divide the run length in feet by 100 and multiply by the 100-foot loss from the chart. So the loss over 10 feet would only be 1/10 as much as over 100 feet.


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## ProjectSHO89

The insertion loss is not the issue when getting into the discussion of solid core vs CCS coax. There's very little difference as far as the RF signals are concerned and the referenced chart isn't what matters.

What is important is the current draw of the amp, it's absolute minimum input voltage, the power supply output voltage and the DC resistance of the coax, shield and core, per unit length. Then you have to calculate the maximum allowable DC voltage drop in the coax so that the amp has the power it needs, both in terms of current and voltage.

Unless you have a real power hog of a preamp, 100' of CCS is probably okay. If you have a power hog of an amp or a longer cable run through which you have to inject power, the solid core is likely the better choice.

Good luck finding out any of those parameters from the amp sellers, most of them probably don't even know themselves.


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## mattdp

I stumbled across Holland's BarrIER products - a line of coax barrels, splitters and connectors which switch to an internal 75 ohm terminating resistor when not connected, maintaining system impedance.
http://www.hollandelectronics.com/barrier.html

I've searched high and low on the internet and for the life of me, I cannot find any of those products for sale. I'm also failing to find a similar competing product anywhere. I'd think cable companies would be all over this stuff (to cut down on RF In/Egress truck rolls). Am I missing something?


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## lifespeed

mattdp said:


> I stumbled across Holland's BarrIER products - a line of coax barrels, splitters and connectors which switch to an internal 75 ohm terminating resistor when not connected, maintaining system impedance.


Interesting, and one does need to attempt idiot proofing on a system operator scale. But that stuff adds loss, a point of failure and cost. Inside my house I know well enough to terminate unused ports, or simply don't build them into my cabling. I'm sure you all know that as well.


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## SFischer1

mattdp said:


> I stumbled across Holland's BarrIER products - a line of coax barrels, splitters and connectors which switch to an internal 75 ohm terminating resistor when not connected, maintaining system impedance.
> http://www.hollandelectronics.com/barrier.html
> ...
> Am I missing something?


Yes, the 2013 date.

Web pages don't disappear when they should. Likely too few sales which were insufficient to keep the company alive.

SHF


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## steel guitar guy

I have been trying UHF Bowties.. made a couple according to online directions.. awful.. A piece of thin copper door bell wire formed into a 9 inch loop was MUCH better.. Saw a nice looking one locally on sale.. Out the door with tax around $36.. 4 bay, looks like something Solid Signal ot Stellar Labs would sell.. Well built, all aluminum... Magnavox branded...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MAGNAVOX-S...323308?hash=item5454e1972c:g:BjsAAOSwRXRZSeTx


Just like my home mades.-Bordeline useless.. No gain at all.. My little GE combo unit pulls in UHF signals WAY better and it only has 3 tiny UHF elements.. Getting steady UHF and VHF signals with the little GE from 75 miles, but the 4 bay can't pickup signals from a station 40 miles away, pointed right at them, that the little GE nails solid, on the back side at times!..
I can't say why but every time I have ever tried a bowtie here, they have failed badly, while Yagis do well.. I have given up even trying , and am returning this one.. I bought the bowtie to get a UHF sub station from corning that I would like [Comet 48.3}, but don't want to put a rotor up to get it... no good... I am done.. I was going to buy a CM 4221 or DB4E, but I think the outcome would be the same.. they just refuse to function on UHF up here, while Yagis are fine.. any thoughts?... bob


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## lifespeed

steel guitar guy said:


> I have been trying UHF Bowties.. made a couple according to online directions.. awful.. A piece of thin copper door bell wire formed into a 9 inch loop was MUCH better.. Saw a nice looking one locally on sale.. Out the door with tax around $36.. 4 bay, looks like something Solid Signal ot Stellar Labs would sell.. Well built, all aluminum... Magnavox branded...
> Just like my home mades.-Bordeline useless.. No gain at all.. My little GE combo unit pulls in UHF signals WAY better and it only has 3 tiny UHF elements.. Getting steady UHF and VHF signals with the little GE from 75 miles, but the 4 bay can't pickup signals from a station 40 miles away, pointed right at them, that the little GE nails solid, on the back side at times!..
> I can't say why but every time I have ever tried a bowtie here, they have failed badly, while Yagis do well.. I have given up even trying , and am returning this one.. I bought the bowtie to get a UHF sub station from corning that I would like [Comet 48.3}, but don't want to put a rotor up to get it... no good... I am done.. I was going to buy a CM 4221 or DB4E, but I think the outcome would be the same.. they just refuse to function on UHF up here, while Yagis are fine.. any thoughts?... bob


Bowtie and Yagi antennae have different gain plots. Look at the plot of gain vs azimuth for the two antenna types in my signature. When you get good results using the Yagi you're benefitting from the narrow-focused beam width of theYagi with little off-axis gain. The bow tie will tend to have broader and more receptive side lobes. In multipath reception locations this is usually problematic as reflected radio signals are often off-axis. I went through the multipath-with-a-bowtie problem just a year ago. It is often solved by a Yagi. It does sound like you're seeing many of the "almost there" marginal reception issues. You're playing with peashooters when you need the long rifle. 

Bite the bullet, put up the Yagi with a good pre-amp, put your high-gain VHF underneath on the same mast (if you need it). Install a rotor too just so you'll have the option, even if you leave it's direction fixed most times. Wind load will be within reason, although still requiring a good installation. But you won't go back up the pole ever again, you'll have maximum reception.


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## steel guitar guy

lifespeed said:


> Bowtie and Yagi antennae have different gain plots. Look at the plot of gain vs azimuth for the two antenna types in my signature. When you get good results using the Yagi you're benefitting from the narrow-focused beam width of theYagi with little off-axis gain. The bow tie will tend to have broader and more receptive side lobes. In multipath reception locations this is usually problematic as reflected radio signals are often off-axis. I went through the multipath-with-a-bowtie problem just a year ago. It is often solved by a Yagi. It does sound like you're seeing many of the "almost there" marginal reception issues. You're playing with peashooters when you need the long rifle.
> 
> Bite the bullet, put up the Yagi with a good pre-amp, put your high-gain VHF underneath on the same mast (if you need it). Install a rotor too just so you'll have the option, even if you leave it's direction fixed most times. Wind load will be within reason, although still requiring a good installation. But you won't go back up the pole ever again, you'll have maximum reception.



Understood.. there are just signals here coming from 3 directions, and none of them very strong... 
Its not that big a deal, I just wanted a close to the mast bowtie for one crappy station, but its not going to work out. I have a big directional UHF yagi thats high gain but very directional.. I won't put it up just to get Comet, not worth it, just too damn big!... If there were more to get around here i would put up both high gain yagis I have, UHF and High VHF but there just isn't much there that I don't already get in ok with the small antenna ... Syracuse is closer than Scranton by 10-15 miles, but i have a mountain in my back yard 1/2 mile high between me and Syracuse, and in 26 years i have never seen an OTA signal from there.. 1/2 mile away from here on the hilltops its there, but not here.. Rochester is 90 miles away, but again, I have never seen a signal from there even on VHF..
I suppose I could put a giant tower up, but even then I don't think i would get enough to justify the cost.. most people around here gave up trying as soon as cable/sattelite came here 25 years ago.

All I know is if I try again to nail WYDC ch 48 I won't use a bowtie.. Its probably not a very strong station... I was just disappointed that I can get it easily with a very small VHF/UHF combo, but not with a well built 4 bay UHF only antenna.. I do have a lot to learn about antenna design, and how it pertains to directionality/gain etc... bob


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## tylerSC

steel guitar guy said:


> I have been trying UHF Bowties.. made a couple according to online directions.. awful.. A piece of thin copper door bell wire formed into a 9 inch loop was MUCH better.. Saw a nice looking one locally on sale.. Out the door with tax around $36.. 4 bay, looks like something Solid Signal ot Stellar Labs would sell.. Well built, all aluminum... Magnavox branded...
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MAGNAVOX-S...323308?hash=item5454e1972c:g:BjsAAOSwRXRZSeTx
> 
> 
> Just like my home mades.-Bordeline useless.. No gain at all.. My little GE combo unit pulls in UHF signals WAY better and it only has 3 tiny UHF elements.. Getting steady UHF and VHF signals with the little GE from 75 miles, but the 4 bay can't pickup signals from a station 40 miles away, pointed right at them, that the little GE nails solid, on the back side at times!..
> I can't say why but every time I have ever tried a bowtie here, they have failed badly, while Yagis do well.. I have given up even trying , and am returning this one.. I bought the bowtie to get a UHF sub station from corning that I would like [Comet 48.3}, but don't want to put a rotor up to get it... no good... I am done.. I was going to buy a CM 4221 or DB4E, but I think the outcome would be the same.. they just refuse to function on UHF up here, while Yagis are fine.. any thoughts?... bob


That GE antenna has a very large reflector screen which may play a role, plus the 3 bow tie elements. Good antenna.


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## steel guitar guy

tylerSC said:


> That GE antenna has a very large reflector screen which may play a role, plus the 3 bow tie elements. Good antenna.


 Very good.. I am getting clear reception on all VHF and several UHF stations from 75 miles away, through heavily forested mountains..
Not a lot of headroom with signal strength, but still pretty impressive for the size.. GE really should up size this same design a bit, maybe a somewhat larger reflector screen, a few more UHF elements, and a slightly larger VHF dipole loop, and call it a "deep fringe" model.. The design is a very good one.. For the size and cost, its been great ,honestly... bob


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## mattdp

I heard back from a rep. at Holland regarding their BarrIER products.

They're hoping to have some of the line available by march. Comcast has tested and approved it for use in their systems.


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## jkeldo

ADTech said:


> Our ClearStream UHF antennas were designed from the ground up for the post-2009 UHF frequencies. Our bowties antennas were also redesigned and relaunched as the "e" series shortly afterward (2011).
> 
> My "stretched" 91XG was done by adding an additional center section to the stock antenna. It slightly narrowed the beamwidth and helped with a spot more forward gain. Magnitude of any of those changes would be nothing more than a guess at this point.
> 
> As for post-2020 UHF frequencies, I did hear that our design engineer was just tasked with the new parameters last week and given instructions on what to do. I do not know any details beyond that. Given that the development pipeline has, in the past, run anywhere from 6-24 months for a new product to emerge on the market, I'd expect 2020 to be the target date as we just spent a BIG truckload of money last year on product re-skins and some new product developments that haven't yet been announced..
> 
> As for the 91XG, I have now idea what its future might hold. Anyway, those decisions are above my pay grade, as we used to say when i was in the service years ago.


I have an older Clearstream 4 antenna which has worked well for me. I might need another one for a relative and I was looking at your newer model, the Max 4. How differently will the new model perform compared to the old? I noticed that the new one doesn't have the metal reflectors. Does that change reception? Thanks for any help.


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## ProjectSHO89

No reflectors should make it bi-directional with a bit lower gain. I see the reflectors are available as an option which should make it pretty much equal to the older C4V.


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## jkeldo

ProjectSHO89 said:


> No reflectors should make it bi-directional with a bit lower gain. I see the reflectors are available as an option which should make it pretty much equal to the older C4V.


Thanks for that information.


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## ADTech

The above post from ProjectSHO89 is spot on. It was also a major intent of the recent re-skin that the MAX series of antennas would be a lot easier for our customers to assemble and install.


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## jkeldo

ADTech said:


> The above post from ProjectSHO89 is spot on. It was also a major intent of the recent re-skin that the MAX series of antennas would be a lot easier for our customers to assemble and install.


OK, thanks as well although I didn't think it was hard to put the old one together.


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## statmanmi

My personal thought on the MAX series is that it appears that the VHF dipole is attached with no directional adjustment possible independent of the UHF portion. I say this without ever seeing one in person out of its box.

My current ClearStream 4V installation benefited from the separate zip-tie mounting of the VHF dipole at a somewhat juxtaposed angle than the UHF loops, once I unhooked it from the reflector. I'm in a 4 VHF channel local area/market; am successfully always locking in a 5th VHF signal from further North; and am hoping to figure out how to consistently grab a 6th one from the SW. (Details in this post: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-lo...84-grand-rapids-mi-hdtv-274.html#post55665130 .)

Cheers!
Statmanmi


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## jkeldo

statmanmi said:


> My personal thought on the MAX series is that it appears that the VHF dipole is attached with no directional adjustment possible independent of the UHF portion. I say this without ever seeing one in person out of its box.
> 
> My current ClearStream 4V installation benefited from the separate zip-tie mounting of the VHF dipole at a somewhat juxtaposed angle than the UHF loops, once I unhooked it from the reflector. I'm in a 4 VHF channel local area/market; am successfully always locking in a 5th VHF signal from further North; and am hoping to figure out how to consistently grab a 6th one from the SW. (Details in this post: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-lo...84-grand-rapids-mi-hdtv-274.html#post55665130 .)
> 
> Cheers!
> Statmanmi


Mine is the UHF model. They came out later with the 4v version and the add-on piece but since I do not have issues with VHF stations like you do, I never purchased it. The new model also looks like the UHF elements are closer together but that might just be the way the picture was taken.


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## GregF

Hey Guys

Can you help me decide on the best antenna solution. By best I like easier, followed by cheaper! I'm hoping one of you will just point me to a great product that stands a better chance of pulling in the stations than what I currently have.

I have a problem of "so close and yet so far". See attached. This is practically the view of San Francisco's Sutro Tower out of my living room window. Sutro broadcasts all the biggest OTA signals for the Bay Area. 










But my TV is in the back of my building. My bedroom window, where my TV is, is about ten feet from the corner of the house, and from their you could see the tower like you can from the living room window.

Most recently I bought Antennas Direct Clearstream Eclipse, figuring I'd throw it on the window to watch OTA once in a blue moon. I would have to move it around, depending on which channel I wanted to watch. As I understand antenna technology, it's catching reflected or bounced signals. Trying to get all the channels without physically moving this antenna is difficult or in a bad spot to keep the antenna for long.

Now I want an antenna 24/7, because I'm using my HTPC to watch and record live TV, with a TV Tuner card.

I figure I have three options:

1) Pay a handyman to run a coax cable to the corner of the building to a discreet OTA antenna, so I'll have an antenna with a direct view of Sutro Tower. The landlord will be unhappy unless I can hide it from view really well. Sounds expensive and difficult.

2) Use the old network of cat 5 cables in my apartment somehow, connecting an indoor antenna in the living room to my HTPC in the bedroom, via some kind of conversion adapter. Sounds tedious, timeconsuming and expensive!

3) Get an indoor antenna with the best shot at getting me good signal strength in the back of the house. May be expensive, but probably cheapest and easiest in the long run!

Dear OTA clerics, what do you suggest?

Gregory


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## lifespeed

GregF said:


> 2) Use the old network of cat 5 cables in my apartment somehow, connecting an indoor antenna in the living room to my HTPC in the bedroom, via some kind of conversion adapter. Sounds tedious, timeconsuming and expensive!


A networked tuner from SiliconDust will allow you send decoded MPEG2 video over Ethernet. These are arguably the best solution for a modern entertainment setup including an HTPC, see my signature for details.


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## SFischer1

GregF said:


> Hey Guys
> 
> Can you help me decide on the best antenna solution. By best I like easier, followed by cheaper! I'm hoping one of you will just point me to a great product that stands a better chance of pulling in the stations than what I currently have.
> 
> I have a problem of "so close and yet so far". See attached. This is practically the view of San Francisco's Sutro Tower out of my living room window. Sutro broadcasts all the biggest OTA signals for the Bay Area.
> 
> 
> [IMG]http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/f53e8dbcfe27462da36f71db3bb6cb11/view-of-the-sutro-tower-from-alamo-square-park-in-san-francisco-california-g5c80f.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> But my TV is in the back of my building. My bedroom window, where my TV is, is about ten feet from the corner of the house, and from their you could see the tower like you can from the living room window.
> 
> Most recently I bought Antennas Direct Clearstream Eclipse, figuring I'd throw it on the window to watch OTA once in a blue moon. I would have to move it around, depending on which channel I wanted to watch. As I understand antenna technology, it's catching reflected or bounced signals. Trying to get all the channels without physically moving this antenna is difficult or in a bad spot to keep the antenna for long.
> 
> Now I want an antenna 24/7, because I'm using my HTPC to watch and record live TV, with a TV Tuner card.
> 
> I figure I have three options:
> 
> 1) Pay a handyman to run a coax cable to the corner of the building to a discreet OTA antenna, so I'll have an antenna with a direct view of Sutro Tower. The landlord will be unhappy unless I can hide it from view really well. Sounds expensive and difficult.
> 
> 2) Use the old network of cat 5 cables in my apartment somehow, connecting an indoor antenna in the living room to my HTPC in the bedroom, via some kind of conversion adapter. Sounds tedious, timeconsuming and expensive!
> 
> 3) Get an indoor antenna with the best shot at getting me good signal strength in the back of the house. May be expensive, but probably cheapest and easiest in the long run!
> 
> Dear OTA clerics, what do you suggest?
> 
> Gregory


Putting a phone number or an address into posts is bad!

Well, an indoor antenna likely will not receive all channels you want in a single position.



> somehow, connecting an indoor antenna in the living room to my HTPC in the bedroom


That is easy, a HDHomeRun Ethernet tuner with an antenna can be located far from your HDTV. I have two, two feet and four feet away from my HTPC. ~ $90 + Taxes and shipping. You say the cables are installed.

You get an onscreen display on your HTPC of Signal Strength and Signal Quality allowing you to point your antenna to the best signal.

With a wireless router I can receive 109 streams any where in my unit with a laptop. But then I have a great outdoor antenna with a low noise pre-amp and eight way distribution ampler. I can record five (5) programs at the same time.

As for as an antenna choice, the TerkHDa directional antenna might help but the signals from Sutro may be going over your head. 

SHF


----------



## GregF

SFischer1 said:


> Putting a phone number or an address into posts is bad!
> 
> Well, an indoor antenna likely will not receive all channels you want in a single position.
> 
> 
> 
> That is easy, a HDHomeRun Ethernet tuner with an antenna can be located far from your HDTV. I have two, two feet and four feet away from my HTPC. ~ $90 + Taxes and shipping. You say the cables are installed.
> 
> You get an onscreen display on your HTPC of Signal Strength and Signal Quality allowing you to point your antenna to the best signal.
> 
> With a wireless router I can receive 109 streams any where in my unit with a laptop. But then I have a great outdoor antenna with a low noise pre-amp and eight way distribution ampler. I can record five (5) programs at the same time.
> 
> As for as an antenna choice, the TerkHDa directional antenna might help but the signals from Sutro may be going over your head.
> 
> SHF


Thanks for the heads up. I was sleepy and entered my phone number reflexively lol.

Thanks also to @lifespeed for the similar recommendation.

Also, I just realized, I'm wrong about KNTV 11.1 coming from Sutro now. It still comes from a different tower in the opposite direction. So I may not be able to pull in all signals from one antenna even from another room or outdoors.

I am reluctant to go the HDHomerun route for multiple reasons, a really big one being the labor involved in using those ethernet cables. It's a funky old setup from before I moved in, and I'll have to do a lot of trial and error and terminating of cables to get that all working, for what may not be stellar results. 

I may just need to try another indoor antenna that's amplified, first. Then I can go the more painful route if necessary.


----------



## SFischer1

GregF said:


> ...
> 
> I may just need to try another indoor antenna that's amplified, first. Then I can go the more painful route if necessary.


I suggest we move this to the http://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-local-hdtv-info-reception/369015-san-francisco-ca-ota.html thread where it belongs. And the local experts including the maintainer of our stations list may have local advise, I am 36 miles from Sutro, Larry is 3/4 mile from Sutro.

An amplified antenna is not needed so close, a directional one may help. The TerkHD had an unamplified version but it appears to no longer being offered. 

SHF


----------



## JHBrandt

Ethernet over Cat 5 cables is usually all-or-nothing. If you get connectors on those cables, chances are you'll either get stellar results or it won't work at all. It's not like coax cables.

But if you'd still rather avoid those Cat 5 cables, how about a set of power-line adapters? All you have to do is plug them in and pair them.

In any case, Ethernet may be an even better solution now that it appears you need two antennas facing opposite directions. Hook an HDHR to each and your HTPC can select the correct HDHR to record from.

Besides HDHRs, there are also a couple of solutions now that use WiFi instead of or in addition to Ethernet: ClearStream TV, and the new AirTV "black box." I believe Hauppauge has a wireless solution as well. But I don't know if those are as reliable as wired Ethernet.


----------



## GregF

SFischer1 said:


> I suggest we move this to the http://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-local-hdtv-info-reception/369015-san-francisco-ca-ota.html thread where it belongs. And the local experts including the maintainer of our stations list may have local advise, I am 36 miles from Sutro, Larry is 3/4 mile from Sutro.
> 
> An amplified antenna is not needed so close, a directional one may help. The TerkHD had an unamplified version but it appears to no longer being offered.
> 
> SHF


Oh sorry, my bad. Should I just do some copy and paste and a little editing? Grateful to have you two on the case.


----------



## SFischer1

GregF said:


> Oh sorry, my bad. Should I just do some copy and paste and a little editing? Grateful to have you two on the case.


I sent a message to the admin, expect the posts to just move. 

SHF


----------



## Larry Kenney

Greg F, let me know when you are on the SF OTA thread. I have some ideas for you to try. I'll tell you about them over there.

Larry


----------



## bernieoc

Channel 3
My PBS is on real ch 3 about 50 miles away and I receive it with a Ch 3 only antenna in the attic - huge thing with lots of arms - reception great except for very occasional distortions ( weather, electronics etc?). All other UHF from same location is perfect with a 4 bay vertical antenna also in attic. The 2 antennas are joined with a UV/J joiner - all goes to basement with distribution amp to 4 TV's.

Question - I am moving to retirement appartment (I am 84) with big windows facing the tower site at same distance as now. I think I will have no problem with U channels with simple indoor antenna. What about CH 3? What can I try indoor at window or outside that can not be seen. TVFOOL has CH 3 in green.

Cable is available - but I have been using DTV PAL DVR and DVR+ from their day 1 availability - going back to cable would be painful.
Thanks for any advice


----------



## JHBrandt

Rabbit ears?


----------



## steel guitar guy

I hope this isn't post going off on a tangent , but it is relative to the topic, and I wanted to post about it...

A few months ago, I put an antenna up in my deep fringe area thats really bad for any OTA reception.. Since that time I have reverted back to the 70's when I looked at every roof every where I went to check out the antenna arrays in use..
These days, 95% of antennas still on up on a roof around here, are broken, falling down, and haven't even been thought of for decades. Some NICE old arrays as well with several CM 4251 still standing proudly..Its just too hard to get signal in many spots, and most gave up long ago, and went satellite, or like me and my neighborhood, petitioned decades ago to have cable "brought up the hill"... However, like everywhere, there are some "cable cutters " out there these days, or at least a few are trying... The VERY sad part of this is that almost ALL of the new shiny antennas, recent installs with their shiny new poles are the same exact ones.. Those $16.95 shipped from Ebay/Amazon "150 mile" antenna/rotor/amp things... I am seeing them everywhere.. they make up almost 100% of new installs I see around here.. What are people thinking?.. Its tough enough to get decent reception here with huge amplified arrays on 50 foot towers. Yet there are a LOT of people thinking they can cut the cord with a sub $20 piece of junk, placed on the old satellite mast 2 feet above a 12 foot roof.. I can only imagine the disappointment most of these folks have experienced, never realizing that they could have done SO much better with a few more dollars, and a little bit of research thats easily available online.. I dunno, just wanted to put this out there.. A total waste in this area, yet I see a lot of people trying, because of claims of "150 miles", and the fact that human nature dictates that we seek out "something for nothing"... a $10 10 foot pole, $25 RCA preamp, and a $40-50 antenna would help some of these folks realize their desire to get some decent local TV, but I would bet most just get disgusted, and figure there's just nothing out there for the antenna to grab, and just give up, instead of buying $100 worth of decent gear.... bob.


----------



## markg35

steel guitar guy said:


> I hope this isn't post going off on a tangent , but it is relative to the topic, and I wanted to post about it...
> 
> A few months ago, I put an antenna up in my deep fringe area thats really bad for any OTA reception.. Since that time I have reverted back to the 70's when I looked at every roof every where I went to check out the antenna arrays in use..
> These days. 95% of antennas still on roofs around here, are broken, falling down, and haven't been though of for decades... just too hard to get signal... however, like everywhere, there are "cable cutters", or at least a few are trying... The VERY sad part of this is that almost ALL of the new shiny antennas, recent installs with their shiny new poles are the same exact ones.. Those $16.95 shipped from Ebay/Amazon "150 mile" antenna/rotor.amp things... I am seeing them everywhere.. they make up almost 100% of new installs I see around here.. What are people thinking?.. Its tough enough to get decent reception here with huge amplified arrays on 50 foot towers. Yet there are a LOT of people thinking they can cut the cord with a sub $20 piece of junk, placed on the old satellite mast 2 feet above a 12 foot roof.. I can only imagine the disappointment most of these folks have experienced, never realizing that they could have done SO much better with a few more dollars, and a little bit of research thats easily available online.. I dunno, just wanted to put this out there.. A total waste in this area, yet I see a lot of people trying, because of claims of "150 miles", and the fact that human nature dictates that we seek out "something for nothing"... a 10 foot pole, $25 RCA preamp, and a $40-50 antenna would help some of these folks realize their desire to get some local TV, but I would bet most just get disgusted, and figure there's just nothing out there for the antenna to grab, and just give up, instead of buying $100 worth of decent gear.... bob.


I find myself looking at all the antennas as well!
I'm in an area with very good reception.30-40 miles from a cluster of towers
That said,I spent a year figuring and trying things out before I cut out Comcast for TV(still have their internet as it's the best around here)
It amazes me how people just cut the cord without trying things out.


----------



## lifespeed

steel guitar guy said:


> These days, 95% of antennas still on up on a roof around here, are broken, falling down, and haven't even been thought of for decades. Some NICE old arrays as well with several CM 4251 still standing proudly..Its just too hard to get signal in many spots, and most gave up long ago, and went satellite, or like me and my neighborhood, petitioned decades ago to have cable "brought up the hill"...


Perhaps you could acquire a neglected CM4251 and bring it back to life on your roof? I hear those were the hot setup. I too check out the neighbors antennae.


----------



## rabbit73

bernieoc said:


> Question - I am moving to retirement appartment (I am 84) with big windows facing the tower site at same distance as now. I think I will have no problem with U channels with simple indoor antenna. What about CH 3? What can I try indoor at window or outside that can not be seen. TVFOOL has CH 3 in green.


Try a folded dipole made from 300 ohm twinlead.










Channel 3: 60 to 66 MHz; center freq 63 MHz
5540/63 = 88 inches for a halfwave dipole

If you can't find 300 twinlead, use 14 gauge solid copper house wiring:


----------



## Larry Kenney

I just invested in a new antenna, the Winegard HD8200U, and had it installed last Friday. I also had all new guy-wire put in since what was there was several years old.

I separated the 11 element/XG91 combination I was using and now use each antenna individually.

The new 8200 is working great! It's receiving a low power station on channel 2 that's located 55 miles away. 

Here's a picture of the new installation.

Larry


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: Twin-Lead Antenna [with Plastic in-between tiny AWG24 wires] for Ch3 is rather LONG (Optimum 89.75-in Electrical Length, which must be SHORTENED by the Velocity Factor....typ. VF=0.8 for Plastic Twin-Lead, so about 71.8-in Tip-to-Tip....but VF varies:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...ipole-philly-channels-2-6-a.html#post33718577

Note that Twin-Lead [if you can find it] has a very narrow Bandwidth with Low SWR (just Ch3)...and Open Wire Folded Dipole has only a bit Wider Bandwidth of perhaps 3 Adjacent Lo-VHF Channels. If you need more than JUST Ch3, then you should be looking at the Lo-VHF Antenna Designs described below.....and pay close attention to the Wire Size needed. [OTOH: Hourglass and Quad-Trap-Loops are fairly tolerant of "thinner" Wire Sizes.]

Open Wire Antennas (also described above) with just AIR between the wires does NOT require any VF Length Reduction.

If Folded Dipole or Rabbit-Ears at Max Extension doesn't work reliably, you might need to consider a Serious Rooftop Antenna...or one of these higher Gain Lo-VHF DIY Projects:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...tenna-suggestions-revisited.html#post51917897

VHF, esp. Lo-VHF Channels face severe Man-Made Interference, primarily from Fluorescent Lights/Ballasts, LCD/LED Lightbulbs, Dimmer Switches, anything with a Brush-Type Motor (e.g. Dishwasher, Washer, Hair/Clothes Dryer, Microwave) and small gasoline engines without modern EMI Suppression Systems....and OLD Cars [Pre-80's???]. So turn Everything OFF and turn back ON one at a time to identify the EMI source.....and then let us know....


----------



## tustinfarm

steel guitar guy said:


> I hope this isn't post going off on a tangent , but it is relative to the topic, and I wanted to post about it...
> 
> A few months ago, I put an antenna up in my deep fringe area thats really bad for any OTA reception.. Since that time I have reverted back to the 70's when I looked at every roof every where I went to check out the antenna arrays in use..
> These days, 95% of antennas still on up on a roof around here, are broken, falling down, and haven't even been thought of for decades. Some NICE old arrays as well with several CM 4251 still standing proudly..Its just too hard to get signal in many spots, and most gave up long ago, and went satellite, or like me and my neighborhood, petitioned decades ago to have cable "brought up the hill"... However, like everywhere, there are some "cable cutters " out there these days, or at least a few are trying... The VERY sad part of this is that almost ALL of the new shiny antennas, recent installs with their shiny new poles are the same exact ones.. Those $16.95 shipped from Ebay/Amazon "150 mile" antenna/rotor/amp things... I am seeing them everywhere.. they make up almost 100% of new installs I see around here.. What are people thinking?.. Its tough enough to get decent reception here with huge amplified arrays on 50 foot towers. Yet there are a LOT of people thinking they can cut the cord with a sub $20 piece of junk, placed on the old satellite mast 2 feet above a 12 foot roof.. I can only imagine the disappointment most of these folks have experienced, never realizing that they could have done SO much better with a few more dollars, and a little bit of research thats easily available online.. I dunno, just wanted to put this out there.. A total waste in this area, yet I see a lot of people trying, because of claims of "150 miles", and the fact that human nature dictates that we seek out "something for nothing"... a $10 10 foot pole, $25 RCA preamp, and a $40-50 antenna would help some of these folks realize their desire to get some decent local TV, but I would bet most just get disgusted, and figure there's just nothing out there for the antenna to grab, and just give up, instead of buying $100 worth of decent gear.... bob.


I got my start with cord-cutting back in 2016 with exactly that kind of antenna....searching Amazon/Ebay they sure do pop up very prominently. The first night after I got mine I stuck it on the end of a broom stick propped up near a window, facing the main Atlanta towers 54 miles away. To my amazement I was able to receive several RF channels....something I never could achieve with assorted Mohu leaf/preamp combos indoors. While I have long since moved on to a "proper" outdoor antenna setup (Stellar Labs 30-2476 for hi-VHF, Extreme 91XG for UHF, FM/LTE traps feeding into an RCA preamp), I have to acknowledge those little and extremely cheap antennas perform _way better_ than they have a "right" too. They definitely have a very cheap and flimsy look and feel, but I have a friend in rural MI who has one mounted on a 20 foot roof mast, exposed to the elements for more than a year with nary a problem, getting as many channels as he used to with an "old school" style antenna. I have done a lot of pondering as to why they perform so well for so little cost/size, even with a mix of weak/strong signals...and my only guess is the high degree of amplification, a low noise figure, and fairly good resistance to overloading. That said, at my location there are a couple of high power FM stations that do overload the preamp, killing _both _VHF channels (RF 8 & 10, PBS & NBC) that are crucial for me. It wasn't until I attached a spectrum analyzer that I "caught on" to the concept of FM overload. I still have my original "el cheapo" antenna, and now use it at a summer home in MI...works like a champ even with a couple of TV towers just 10 miles away. But yes, no self-respecting OTA avsforum member would be caught dead with such a simple antenna mounted outdoors lol. If I had more ambition I would tinker with installing a good FM trap in it to see if I could make it usable at my location. While my current setup does a wonderful job (16 solid RF channels), I must acknowledge I have fond memories of that cheap little $30 amplified "150 mile" (haah!) antenna and my early days "sniffing around" for OTA signals.


----------



## holl_ands

*bernieoc:* It would help if you actually POSTED your new TVFool Results....presumably still near Roanoke VA????
Do you ONLY want Ch3 in Lo-VHF Band...or are you also interested in Ch4 and Ch5???


----------



## SFischer1

holl_ands said:


> *bernieoc:* It would help if you actually POSTED your new TVFool Results....


That request should be post a *LINK* to your TVFool results, the first thing you see at the top after TVFool has done it's work.

It's in the required sticky's at the top:


> Remember to use a LINK and not an image.


SHF


----------



## guitarplayer

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=9038f7ede5fae6


steel guitar guy said:


> . The VERY sad part of this is that almost ALL of the new shiny antennas, recent installs with their shiny new poles are the same exact ones.. Those $16.95 shipped from Ebay/Amazon "150 mile" antenna/rotor/amp things... I am seeing them everywhere.. they make up almost 100% of new installs I see around here.. What are people thinking?..


Haha, I just ordered one of those, although the one I ordered is about $26.00 on Amazon, and has pretty good reviews. I live in Jonesboro, IL, where the signals come from all directions. I am renting a house from a friend, and currently have an Antennas Direct DB8 on a DJ lighting stand in the corner of my bedroom. It works, but it's so large that I cant' turn it. I'm hoping this little antenna is small enough that I can just put it up on the stand in my room and it will allow me to rotate it enough to get all our locals. I SERIOUSLY doubt it has the advertised/claimed 150 mile range... well, unless you had it WAY up in the air. I live just close enough to a hill that it blocks the signal from our local PBS affiliate, but I may be able to see the one in Murray, KY, since I can get the Paducah, KY station WPSD without any trouble even when my DB8 isn't pointed directly at it. I figure if it works, I'm ahead of the game. My friend woudn't care if I mount the smaller antenna outside, although I dunno if he'd be OK with putting up the DB8 because it would take a pretty serious mount to hold it still in the wind because of it's size. Then again, if the little inexpensive antenna works ok, I may just keep it inside. There's no "wife factor" to consider here, so I have that going for me, LOL.


----------



## steel guitar guy

guitarplayer said:


> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=9038f7ede5fae6
> 
> Haha, I just ordered one of those, although the one I ordered is about $26.00 on Amazon, and has pretty good reviews. I live in Jonesboro, IL, where the signals come from all directions. I am renting a house from a friend, and currently have an Antennas Direct DB8 on a DJ lighting stand in the corner of my bedroom. It works, but it's so large that I cant' turn it. I'm hoping this little antenna is small enough that I can just put it up on the stand in my room and it will allow me to rotate it enough to get all our locals. I SERIOUSLY doubt it has the advertised/claimed 150 mile range... well, unless you had it WAY up in the air. I live just close enough to a hill that it blocks the signal from our local PBS affiliate, but I may be able to see the one in Murray, KY, since I can get the Paducah, KY station WPSD without any trouble even when my DB8 isn't pointed directly at it. I figure if it works, I'm ahead of the game. My friend woudn't care if I mount the smaller antenna outside, although I dunno if he'd be OK with putting up the DB8 because it would take a pretty serious mount to hold it still in the wind because of it's size. Then again, if the little inexpensive antenna works ok, I may just keep it inside. There's no "wife factor" to consider here, so I have that going for me, LOL.


 I would guess they are ok in areas of decent signal strength, but up here, in the deep fringe you need BIG stuff.. If I lived close to a major city with good signal, I might even buy one myself, but would never trust the rotator.. I read hundreds of reviews, and very few of them make it more than a month or two, they just quit working..
Actually, if a REAL antenna company came up with a similar compact design with a well built preamp amp and dependable rotator and say a solid 1 year guarantee , ready to go on a pole, they would sell every one they could build to cord cutters, if it was well priced.. The IDEA is good, but the quality is sorely lacking... bob


----------



## Larry Kenney

steel guitar guy said:


> I would guess they are ok in areas of decent signal strength, but up here, in the deep fringe you need BIG stuff.. If I lived close to a major city with good signal, I might even buy one myself, but would never trust the rotator.. I read hundreds of reviews, and very few of them make it more than a month or two, they just quit working..
> Actually, if a REAL antenna company came up with a similar compact design with a well built preamp amp and dependable rotator and say a solid 1 year guarantee , ready to go on a pole, they would sell every one they could build to cord cutters, if it was well priced.. The IDEA is good, but the quality is sorely lacking... bob


I went through two $100 Channel Master rotors that lasted less than two years, so my antenna installer recommended the Yaesu G-450A rotor. It's much more expensive than the CM rotor, but it's lasted four years so far and continues to work flawlessly. With signals coming at us from 9 different transmitter sites, you really need a rotor if you want decent reception here. We have two sites locally - Sutro Tower and Mt. San Bruno - where one setting gets everything, and even indoor antennas work okay, but if you want to watch the stations from up North in Marin and Sonoma counties, from Walnut Grove, Mt. Diablo and the two sites in the South Bay near Fremont, you have to install a rotor. I highly recommend the Yaesu rotor.

Larry


----------



## guitarplayer

steel guitar guy said:


> I would guess they are ok in areas of decent signal strength, but up here, in the deep fringe you need BIG stuff.. If I lived close to a major city with good signal, I might even buy one myself, but would never trust the rotator.. I read hundreds of reviews, and very few of them make it more than a month or two, they just quit working..
> Actually, if a REAL antenna company came up with a similar compact design with a well built preamp amp and dependable rotator and say a solid 1 year guarantee , ready to go on a pole, they would sell every one they could build to cord cutters, if it was well priced.. The IDEA is good, but the quality is sorely lacking... bob


Yeah, I have seen a few reviews where people said the rotors had just a little bit of play in them, so that the antenna would wiggle in the wind, which is another reason I'm going to just try it inside and see how it works. It would be nice to be able to rotate my antenna and get all the locals that my antenna can see without rearranging the room to do so, LOL. And yeah, as solid as a lot of the reviews of these "cheapie" antennas are, you'd think one of the "big boys" in the antenna biz would decide to make something similar...even if it were $50-$75 I think people would give them a whirl.


----------



## steel guitar guy

guitarplayer said:


> Yeah, I have seen a few reviews where people said the rotors had just a little bit of play in them, so that the antenna would wiggle in the wind, which is another reason I'm going to just try it inside and see how it works. It would be nice to be able to rotate my antenna and get all the locals that my antenna can see without rearranging the room to do so, LOL. And yeah, as solid as a lot of the reviews of these "cheapie" antennas are, you'd think one of the "big boys" in the antenna biz would decide to make something similar...even if it were $50-$75 I think people would give them a whirl.


 Probably more like $125-150 with a built in rotator and amp built in, but they would sell all they could make thats for sure... bob


----------



## guitarplayer

steel guitar guy said:


> Probably more like $125-150 with a built in rotator and amp built in, but they would sell all they could make thats for sure... bob


Even at that price point, I bet you're right. I think the antenna itself must be a halfway solid design, people seem to like them a lot while they work. I'm hoping I can keep mine in working shape since it will be indoors.


----------



## tustinfarm

guitarplayer said:


> Yeah, I have seen a few reviews where people said the rotors had just a little bit of play in them, so that the antenna would wiggle in the wind, which is another reason I'm going to just try it inside and see how it works. It would be nice to be able to rotate my antenna and get all the locals that my antenna can see without rearranging the room to do so, LOL. And yeah, as solid as a lot of the reviews of these "cheapie" antennas are, you'd think one of the "big boys" in the antenna biz would decide to make something similar...even if it were $50-$75 I think people would give them a whirl.


I've had really good results with a couple of these antennas placed in the proper "contexts"...i.e. where there weren't FM towers 2 miles away (2X harmonics from the amplifier = wiping out hi-VHF channel), and where tvfool suggests the noise margin (NM) values are in the 10dB+ zone. The rotor device is fairly primitive...just an an off motor control that pivots the antenna back and forth...e.g. when it reaches the end of its range it reverses direction. No feedback to controller on where it is pointing....which makes an indoor install perfect since you can SEE what it is doing!

Yes, they are rather plastic-y, feel flimsy, look like they were from a 1950s "space age" movie, and are not well regarded by most on this forum. But they have earned my respect in _certain locations_ where they can really shine. And for such little investment, it is definitely worth a shot. If it's a failure, hang on to it for a current/future vacation home, give to a friend/relative in the right location etc. Often with hobbies we are cautioned not to buy something really cheap that will give a bad experience and thus discourage continuing (like a cheap steel string guitar with terrible string action tearing your fingers up)...but in my experience these cheap antennas seem to defy that (usually correct) principle. OK, I've gone a little over the top with this post. Morning coffee can do that sometimes.


----------



## guitarplayer

tustinfarm said:


> I've had really good results with a couple of these antennas placed in the proper "contexts"...*i.e. where there weren't FM towers 2 miles away *(2X harmonics from the amplifier = wiping out hi-VHF channel), and where tvfool suggests the noise margin (NM) values are in the 10dB+ zone. The rotor device is fairly primitive...just an an off motor control that pivots the antenna back and forth...e.g. when it reaches the end of its range it reverses direction. No feedback to controller on where it is pointing....which makes an indoor install perfect since you can SEE what it is doing!
> 
> Yes, they are rather plastic-y, feel flimsy, look like they were from a 1950s "space age" movie, and are not well regarded by most on this forum. But they have earned my respect in _certain locations_ where they can really shine. And for such little investment, it is definitely worth a shot. If it's a failure, hang on to it for a current/future vacation home, give to a friend/relative in the right location etc. Often with hobbies we are cautioned not to buy something really cheap that will give a bad experience and thus discourage continuing (like a cheap steel string guitar with terrible string action tearing your fingers up)...but in my experience these cheap antennas seem to defy that (usually correct) principle. OK, I've gone a little over the top with this post. Morning coffee can do that sometimes.


Hmmmm. Our little hometown radio station was awarded a low power FM license a few months ago, I think they are 3000 watts at max. Their tower is about 3 blocks from my house, IF the FM shares the same tower as their AM, which I am not positive but I think it does....


----------



## Calaveras

guitarplayer said:


> Hmmmm. Our little hometown radio station was awarded a low power FM license a few months ago, I think they are 3000 watts at max. Their tower is about 3 blocks from my house, IF the FM shares the same tower as their AM, which I am not positive but I think it does....



Low power FM is 100 watts maximum. You can look up the station here:

https://www.fcc.gov/media/radio/fm-query

No FM stations are listed for Jonesboro, IL.


----------



## guitarplayer

Calaveras said:


> Low power FM is 100 watts maximum. You can look up the station here:
> 
> https://www.fcc.gov/media/radio/fm-query
> 
> No FM stations are listed for Jonesboro, IL.


The station is WIBH, city of license is Anna, IL. Anna and Jonesboro are two small towns in the middle of southern IL that basically are like suburbs of one another, you drive out of one directly into the city limits of the other. I think the tower is in Anna city limits but I can see it from my front yard. They haven't been up on FM for very long. FM 102.5, and AM 1440.


----------



## tustinfarm

guitarplayer said:


> Hmmmm. Our little hometown radio station was awarded a low power FM license a few months ago, I think they are 3000 watts at max. Their tower is about 3 blocks from my house, IF the FM shares the same tower as their AM, which I am not positive but I think it does....


FM overload typically matters when you need to receive a hi-VHF station (RF 7-13) whose 6 MHz channel band overlaps with a 2X harmonic of a strong FM station. For example, one of my favorite VHF channels (PBS on RF 8) spans 180-186 MHz, and its tower is about 50 miles away from my antenna. There is a local, 26,000 watt FM transmitter on 90.5 MHz about _two miles away_ from my antenna. If my preamp overloads from this strong FM signal, the clipping generates a (2 X 90.5 MHz = 181 MHz) harmonic signal....sitting right there in RF channel 8....causing a problem. That rendered a cheap $30 amplified antenna of no use at my location, so ultimately I ended up with a high gain VHF antenna with an inline FM trap before the preamp (RCA - which also has an FM trap).

That said, there are _so many variables_ at play for each location that it is nearly impossible to predict when FM is going to an issue....and even when it is, it may be as simple as tweaking the antenna angle/height to diminish it. Better to start by pretending it's not a problem, and then if there is a hi-VHF channel of interest that is harder to receive than tvfool suggests...dig a little deeper into FM.


----------



## Calaveras

guitarplayer said:


> The station is WIBH, city of license is Anna, IL. Anna and Jonesboro are two small towns in the middle of southern IL that basically are like suburbs of one another, you drive out of one directly into the city limits of the other. I think the tower is in Anna city limits but I can see it from my front yard. They haven't been up on FM for very long. FM 102.5, and AM 1440.



The FM station is W273DE and is a translator for WIBH AM. 

https://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/...&slat2=&NS=N&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&EW=W&size=9

It may seem strange, but this station doesn't meet the FCC's definition of a LPFM station. 

If you have a weak TV station on RF 12 then it might cause interference.


----------



## guitarplayer

Calaveras said:


> The FM station is W273DE and is a translator for WIBH AM.
> 
> https://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/...&slat2=&NS=N&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&EW=W&size=9
> 
> It may seem strange, but this station doesn't meet the FCC's definition of a LPFM station.
> 
> If you have a weak TV station on RF 12 then it might cause interference.


Yeah, I don't think they *technically* are low power, but their signal doesn't really get out all that far, it's pretty hilly here, and their tower isn't all that high up if they're using the same tower they use for AM... 10-15 miles is about all the range they get on most days, although their signal is a little better if you drive north than it is if you drive south/southeast in my experience. I worked at this station when it was known as WRAJ, back in the 1990s. AM 1440, and then the FM was on 92.7. At that time, the two stations shared the same tower, and I would be willing to bet that now as WIBH, they still do. I guess we will see if they're gonna be problematic this evening when I fire up the new antenna....


----------



## ADTech

For AM broadcasting, the tower is often "hot", that is, the tower is the antenna. AM broadcasting isn't my specialty, but it would seem that such an arrangement wouldn't bode well for mounting another smaller antenna to it for FM broadcasting.

In this location, according to the FCC data, the towers for these two stations are near each other, about a km apart.


----------



## tustinfarm

guitarplayer said:


> I guess we will see if they're gonna be problematic this evening when I fire up the new antenna....


Guitarplayer, 
(apologies for inserting a rather non-technical post in this thread)...

Looking forward to your new antenna "report". Over the several decades that I have tinkered with antennas and radio receivers I have noticed a strange phenomenon of that first power up or connection night....an almost metaphysical experience whereby stations come booming in like never before on long/medium/shortwave...with all manner of tropo propagation on VHF/UHF, like never before (or since) seen. Then the next day arrives, and by harsh light of noon the distant stations have quietly faded back into the noise floor. Hopefully that won't happen in this case, and may you have good, stable (and repeatable) reception with the new antenna!


----------



## guitarplayer

Well, after fiddling with it for about 15 minutes, I am getting one of the locals that I wasn't before, because I can turn the antenna in the right direction. The other two locals, though, I guess I am just too close to "the hill" as I'm still not getting them. It's signal is solid as a rock, though, channels that I get aren't dropping out or anything of that nature, so that's good. I think if I could get it up in the air about 20 more feet I could probably get the two locals that I still can't get now, but I can tell that this antenna wouldn't take too much of a beating from the sun, it's not all that sturdily made, which we already knew.


----------



## guitarplayer

Hmmm, after observing the setup for a few minutes, I think I may try to lower the stand after a bit, I think the metal under the soffits of the house may be blocking signal a bit, as I have the stand up as high as it will go in the corner, putting the antenna about an inch from the ceiling. I just found out that if I point it the exact opposite of what I think I should for one local channel, I can get it, too. Hmmm. That's what makes me think it might be the metal in the soffits. Oh well, even if I can't figure it out further, I am getting one local perfectly that I wasn't getting before, and then this one that I'm pointing the opposite direction to get, it's about 95% solid, it drops out a little, but it's watchable. Methinks the el-cheapo antenna isn't all that bad at all. Also, there's way too much play in the antenna's gearbox/rotor motor for it to be usable outside, I think. I can see it wiggle when I turn it, and it just feels kinda "loose". Indoors on a stand or in an attic, though, I think it would be fine.


----------



## RadioRFGuru

ADTech said:


> For AM broadcasting, the tower is often "hot", that is, the tower is the antenna. AM broadcasting isn't my specialty, but it would seem that such an arrangement wouldn't bode well for mounting another smaller antenna to it for FM broadcasting.
> 
> In this location, according to the FCC data, the towers for these two stations are near each other, about a km apart.


 Yes the towers(s) are the antenna in AM stations. There is lots of ways that these work depending on the type of station, nightime and daytime power and pattern for the license. Yes, you CAN mount antennas on them. I have several companies that have done this including their STL's for the FM, FM arrays, TV arrays, and LMR antennas. It requires special mounting and working setup to install and repair these. You either have to shutdown the AM side, or use special RF suits. Basically they are very heavy and cumbersome suits like HazMat suits but cuts RF down.


----------



## ADTech

That's good to know, thanks for providing the details. Like I mentioned, AM radio isn't something I deal with so I was sure to qualify my earlier response. Glad to hear from some one with experience.


----------



## steel guitar guy

After thinking through my options, I have started considering a CM 4228 HD.. The reason is mostly because of the 2 big yagis I bought to install.. After seeing the size and weight of each unit and length of the booms, I realized it was going to be a lot of torque and wind load.. Very windy here, all year long..

I am currently using a GE Pro antenna..https://www.amazon.com/GE-29884-Out...+pro+outdoor+antenna+70+miles#customerReviews

small, compact, and surprising performance, but I do need more gain in this deep fringe area.. High VHF has been pretty good from 2 stations 75 miles away. for most of the past 3-4 months with no leaves on the trees.

My question is this.. Will the stated 5 db High VHF gain on the 4228 be substantially more than the folded dipole on the GE antenna??.. GE doesn't release specs, but I dunno, what could the dipole gain be on the GE.. 0 , maybe 2 dB??.. 

I am getting pretty good UHF as well, but there is some dropping out of those stations depending on weather.. So I do need substantially more UHF gain as well, but have started to re consider the big heavy Yagi I bought for the job..
I have tried 4 bay UHF bowties here before, and they always performed poorly, without amplifiers..

However, i have never tried an 8 bay, and from what I understand, they are more directional than a 4 bay.. Basically, I am looking for a 1 antenna solution that can deal with heavy wind load.. The 4228 would have the wind hitting it on the side in the direction it will be facing.. Long Yagi types, would get it sideways as well, and 2 big ones is going to put a TON of torque on any installation, and over the years, I have seen several new masts get twisted off right over the guy ring.. I know of one guy that got disgusted and went to satellite for that reason.. Could not keep antennas on the roof, no matter how well guyed.

Bottom line, will the 4228 have more VHF gain than the GE, or am I taking a risk?

Also, Will it have increased directional UHF gain over the GE in place now?.. Set up has an RCA preamp on the mast, and I plan on going about 5 feet higher.
I am getting 2 high VHF stations and one fairly steady UHF station from 75 miles over the mountains with the RCA.. I also get 2 other UHF stations at times, but they are very problematic, and are typically not strong enough to stay above the digital cliff. More UHF gain would probably help..

I have my doubts that the 4228 HD VHF gain specs will impress anyone here, but really I don't need a lot more VHF gain than what the GE antenna has,, However I DO need at least little more than the small dipole on the GE... Thoughts and ideas appreciated as always, and opinions from those that own or have installed the 4228 HD are of great interest... bob


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## tylerSC

^^If you need stronger VHF gain, then you will need a dedicated VHF antenna. There are 2 Stellar Labs models from Newark/element 14 that are designed for High VHF channels 7 thru 13. That would be best unless you need Low VHF. For Low VHF you would need a Winegard 8200 combo antenna or a Channel Master 3020 combo antenna. The 4228 antenna is optimized for UHF, but can receive High VHF in a strong signal area. It would not be recommended for VHF fringe, and your GE antenna with the VHF circular dipole will probably perform better. So if you need to upgrade the VHF, then you need a dedicated VHF antenna.


----------



## tylerSC

Also in the fringe a Low Noise Preamp may be recommended. The Kitztech 200 is good for the fringe and has a very low noise figure. I think you may need a FM trap before that preamp. It may allow better results than the RCA for a fringe application due to the low noise figure, and may prevent some of the dropouts you may be currently experiencing.


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## steel guitar guy

Thanks for the reply,, I already have the big Stellar Labs High VHF antenna here, and yes the gain is impressive in my trials. Its just that in my testing here, whenever the wind kicked up a bit, that thing is a parachute, as is the SL UHF Yagi..
. I just don't need that much more gain forVHF to be honest... its real close to what I am looking for already, but a bit of insurance would help...
So the GE would have more high VHF gain than the 4228 HD?


----------



## Primestar31

tylerSC said:


> Also in the fringe a Low Noise Preamp may be recommended. The Kitztech 200 is good for the fringe and has a very low noise figure. I think you may need a FM trap before that preamp. It may allow better results than the RCA for a fringe application due to the low noise figure, and may prevent some of the dropouts you may be currently experiencing.



The Kitztech KT-200 now has an integrated FM trap.


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## holl_ands

CM4228HD (like most modern "UHF-ONLY" Antennas) uses a PCB Balun (Printed Circuit Board) which ATTENUATES VHF Band. To exploit the significant Hi-VHF Band Gain, I highly recommend replacing the PCB Balun and attached Horizontal Harness with my *HHH Mod* including a conventional, cylindrical 300:75-ohm OUTDOOR Balun [C-M or Philips] at the midpoint. This mod eliminates Ch10 Null in the Original and significantly improves performance all across UHF Band, esp. on lowest and highest UHF Channels:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl/newcm4228hdwithhollandshorizharness

Compare to CM4228HD, Original As Shipped:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl/cm4228hd

BTW: Effect of High SWR in Hi-VHF Band is minimized when using a fairly SHORT length of Coax to a Preamp, since it is too short of a length to form SWR Nulls.


----------



## bugtussle

steel guitar guy said:


> Thanks for the reply,, I already have the big Stellar Labs High VHF antenna here, and yes the gain is impressive in my trials. Its just that in my testing here, whenever the wind kicked up a bit, that thing is a parachute, as is the SL UHF Yagi..
> . I just don't need that much more gain forVHF to be honest... its real close to what I am looking for already, but a bit of insurance would help...
> So the GE would have more high VHF gain than the 4228 HD?


You mentioned in the previous post that you would go possibly higher with the 4228 HD. I'm using that antenna in a fringe area with lots of trees and higher isn't necessarily better in all situations. I lowered mine a few feet to work on my setup and got a call from inside the house that my weak 16.1 station was now coming in better than ever. So now that's where stays and gets me a little better wind resistance. Have you walked around with a antenna on a pole in the yard to find a sweet spot? Are you using a convenience location for your mast now? I connected the large Steller Labs VHF HI on a 10' pole with a 20' length of coax to a small TV placed in a garden cart. I had 150' of extension cord and started patrolling the property all around the house, on the roof and covered every square yard outside within 100' of the house. I found the absolute best spot for my weakest PBS station and planted a mast in the ground in that location. All channels now come in good and the bottom of my 4228 HD is about 11 " from the ground.


----------



## steel guitar guy

bugtussle said:


> You mentioned in the previous post that you would go possibly higher with the 4228 HD. I'm using that antenna in a fringe area with lots of trees and higher isn't necessarily better in all situations. I lowered mine a few feet to work on my setup and got a call from inside the house that my weak 16.1 station was now coming in better than ever. So now that's where stays and gets me a little better wind resistance. Have you walked around with a antenna on a pole in the yard to find a sweet spot? Are you using a convenience location for your mast now? I connected the large Steller Labs VHF HI on a 10' pole with a 20' length of coax to a small TV placed in a garden cart. I had 150' of extension cord and started patrolling the property all around the house, on the roof and covered every square yard outside within 100' of the house. I found the absolute best spot for my weakest PBS station and planted a mast in the ground in that location. All channels now come in good and the bottom of my 4228 HD is about 11 " from the ground.



Very limited here as to where an antenna can go.. Massive trees everywhere, mountains surround me, and I have to shoot through small low points in them, in between tree braches and power lines - multiple power lines are within 20 feet on the antenna!.. It really is a mess, and actually I am quite lucky I get anything.. I wish a few of the members here lived close by. i would show them around, ask what they thought about getting OTA and have a laugh..
I have decided to go with the SL High VHF that I have, but I took the front section off, and removed 1 reflector element as they are just not needed, and now instead of a 30-2476 its identical to a 30-2475.. Tried it and it has a LOT more gain unamplified than the GE has up on the roof with an amplifier.. Was getting 90 on the TV signal meter with no amp on the Binghamton stations, and in the upper 50's on the Scranton stations, with me holding a 10 mast over my head, and no amp..
The now smaller VHF antenna will help with wind load, so up it goes for VHF, and I am still deciding on a UHF unit if the Stellar Labs 30-2415 has problems on Low UHF as I read that it has.. Several times.. I will try it however... In any case, in my situation I think there is no real good 1 antenna solution... bob


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## maxreactance

holl_ands said:


> BTW: Effect of High SWR in Hi-VHF Band is minimized when using a fairly SHORT length of Coax to a Preamp, since it is too short of a length to form SWR Nulls.


How about NO coax to the preamp? I just screw two pieces of coat-hanger wire into the flatwire screws on an old (but very expensive and very low noise) Radio Shack "Color TV Antenna Amplifier" (you can tell it's old because they put the word "Color" in the name, same as "HDTV" today). The coat-hanger wire is "cut" to physical channel 7, and is threaded through a UHF double-loop that I made from a piece of metal I got at Home Depot. You might call that "min reactance"... 

I have it in the attic and it gets around 100 unique channels from up to 100 miles away. It would last about three days outdoors, and the masthead amplifier has gone the way of the flatwire and color analog TVs it was "designed" for... 

--
max


----------



## tylerSC

steel guitar guy said:


> Very limited here as to where an antenna can go.. Massive trees everywhere, mountains surround me, and I have to shoot through small low points in them, in between tree braches and power lines - multiple power lines are within 20 feet on the antenna!.. It really is a mess, and actually I am quite lucky I get anything.. I wish a few of the members here lived close by. i would show them around, ask what they thought about getting OTA and have a laugh..
> I have decided to go with the SL High VHF that I have, but I took the front section off, and removed 1 reflector element as they are just not needed, and now instead of a 30-2476 its identical to a 30-2475.. Tried it and it has a LOT more gain unamplified than the GE has up on the roof with an amplifier.. Was getting 90 on the TV signal meter with no amp on the Binghamton stations, and in the upper 50's on the Scranton stations, with me holding a 10 mast over my head, and no amp..
> The now smaller VHF antenna will help with wind load, so up it goes for VHF, and I am still deciding on a UHF unit if the Stellar Labs 30-2415 has problems on Low UHF as I read that it has.. Several times.. I will try it however... In any case, in my situation I think there is no real good 1 antenna solution... bob


The Stellar Labs High VHF antenna is the best move to increase gain for your fringe VHF channels. It should perform better than the GE antenna and the 4228 for the VHF. For UHF you may try either the 4228 or the Stellar Labs version of the 91XG. If it is too long you could also modify it and remove one of the sections, then it becomes a 43XG which still has good gain for a UHF antenna.


----------



## tylerSC

tylerSC said:


> The Stellar Labs High VHF antenna is the best move to increase gain for your fringe VHF channels. It should perform better than the GE antenna and the 4228 for the VHF. For UHF you may try either the 4228 or the Stellar Labs version of the 91XG. If it is too long you could also modify it and remove one of the sections, then it becomes a 43XG which still has good gain for a UHF antenna.


And possibly for fringe applications, you may consider a low noise preamp such as a Kitztech model, perhaps the 200, 501, or 100. The 500 is too strong and may be problematic, despite adjustable gain. The 200 is a good performer for the fringe. But you would have to add a UVSJ before the preamp. (UHF/VHF Signal Joiner, a special splitter you may order from Radioshack, Amazon, Stellar Labs, or Antennas Direct).


----------



## steel guitar guy

tylerSC said:


> And possibly for fringe applications, you may consider a low noise preamp such as a Kitztech model, perhaps the 200, 501, or 100. The 500 is too strong and may be problematic, despite adjustable gain. The 200 is a good performer for the fringe. But you would have to add a UVSJ before the preamp. (UHF/VHF Signal Joiner, a special splitter you may order from Radioshack, Amazon, Stellar Labs, or Antennas Direct).


 Although its not as highly regarded as some others, the RCA has separate uhf/vhf inputs, and an FM trap, and has been working pretty well, I think its all I will need.. I actually get a LOT of stations, as I am drawing from 3 small markets, but I am getting triplicates of everything, and not enough variety on the subchannels that I really want... I get most of everything I CAN get, with whats up there now,.. Main reason for upgrading really is for more reserve and fewer dropouts, although most stations i am getting now are not dropping out too much.. The one UHF station I want to keep solid, WNEP in Scranton is stable maybe 85-90% of the time, and thats why I got the big SL UHF Yagi, to bring it to 100%... sadly in my case, the 2 big prizes in this area are syracuse and rochester, but the hills block them where I live, and they are out of the question... 1 mile from here, they are catchable, but that does nothing for me... bob


----------



## ncsercs

Found this on eBay:

Tru Spec TA-25 UHF/VHF/FM/ TV Antenna Amplifier by Pico Digital

Any good? 

What's the difference between this and the RCA TVPRAMP1R?


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Well, first off, the TA-25 is a distribution amp, not a pre-amp. If you need a pre-amp, skip the TA-25.

The TA-25 has noise figures that are really poor. If you need a drop amp, there are much better choices for less money.


----------



## lifespeed

Not sure if anybody has seen this, but if you're in the market for a UHF Yagi for the repacked spectrum, they have one over in the UK. It has gain comparable (better at the high end, a little less on the low end) to the venerable 91XG, but has the advantage of rolling off above 600MHz to reject LTE cellular signals. Price isn't too bad, but you have to factor in the overseas shipping.

XB16 group A gain plot.

XB16 antenna.
http://www.aerialsandtv.com/gaincurves.html#Agroups


----------



## holl_ands

XB16A Plot is for U.K. UHF Channels...showing significant roll-off on Ch45...which is about 665 MHz (US/CAN Ch46).... so it would NOT be suitable NOW if any of your channels are above Euro Ch37 [US/CAN Ch36, 601-608 MHz]....but would be AFTER the upcoming shut down of US/CAN Ch38-Ch51:
http://www.aerialsandtv.com/appendix.html#UHFchannelNumbers [Center Freqs for U.K. 8 MHz Wide DVB-T Channels]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_channel_frequencies [Be sure to scroll down to US and U.K. UHF Channel Lists]

Note that because LOWER End of 700 MHz Band is assigned for low-power Cell Phones the UPPER End of the 600 MHz Cellphone Band was ALSO assigned for low-power Cell Phones to minimize Interference. Hence the High Power Cell Towers operate in the 616 - 653 MHz...with only 8 MHz [Ch37 + 2 MHz Guard] separation between top of Ch36 and Cell Towers....which means there is NO WAY for an Antenna to have minimal Loss on Ch36 and any sort of reasonable attenuation of Cell Tower Transmissions....and it would take a very special multi-stage 610 MHz LTE Filter to significantly attenuate those signals either:

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgur...9vZAhVG2mMKHZeXB4cQMwhJKAowCg&iact=mrc&uact=8

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgur...tx=1#h=180&imgdii=KPBaX__2RQ_JVM:&vet=1&w=439


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## lifespeed

holl_ands said:


> XB16A Plot is for U.K. UHF Channels...showing significant roll-off on Ch45...which is about 665 MHz (US/CAN Ch46).... so it would NOT be suitable if any of your channels are above Euro Ch37 [US/CAN Ch36, 601-608 MHz]....i.e. AFTER the upcoming shut down of US/CAN Ch38-Ch51:
> http://www.aerialsandtv.com/appendix.html#UHFchannelNumbers [Center Freqs for U.K. 8 MHz Wide DVB-T Channels]
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_channel_frequencies [Be sure to scroll down to US and U.K. UHF Channel Lists]





lifespeed said:


> Not sure if anybody has seen this, but if you're in the market for a UHF Yagi _*for the repacked spectrum*_, they have one over in the UK.


Isn't that what I said?


----------



## holl_ands

I have a problem with the claim that it's going to attenuate LTE Cell Tower Transmissions....either NOW and esp. after the Repack when the Guard Band between Ch36 and adjacent High Power Cell Tower is nearly non-existent.

More on this subject...and be sure to scroll down a few more posts to see ADTech's Measurements on R-S LTE Filter that is effective for CURRENT TV Band...but will be useless against 600 MHz Band Cell Towers after the upcoming RePack:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/186...82249-4-bay-mclapp-lte-700-a.html#post3022297


Also note that XB16A provides Gain [add 2.2 to dbd to derive dbi] of about 12.8 to 16.5 dBi in RePacked UHF Band [407-608 MHz]. Compare to EXISTING Antennas, where top four listed on right in fol. chart would STILL be better choices:


----------



## lifespeed

holl_ands said:


> I have a problem with the claim that it's going to attenuate LTE Cell Tower Transmissions....either NOW and esp. after the Repack when the Guard Band between Ch36 and adjacent High Power Cell Tower is nearly non-existent.
> 
> More on this subject...and be sure to scroll down a few more posts to see ADTech's Measurements on R-S LTE Filter that is effective for CURRENT TV Band...but will be useless against 600 MHz Band Cell Towers after the upcoming RePack:
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/186...82249-4-bay-mclapp-lte-700-a.html#post3022297


The XB16A antenna is not a brick-wall filter, nor will it attenuate 600MHz cell towers while receiving 600MHz UHF TV transmitters. However, it will reduce the gain of some cell tower frequencies such as 700MHz Verizon for example. It is arguably the best option today for somebody looking for a high-gain antenna suited to the post-repack spectrum. What would you suggest instead? The 91XG? That thing is tuned to Verizon cell towers.

Wasn't looking for an argument, just pointing out a good option for new installations.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

> just pointing out a good option for new installations.


...have you checked 1) to see if they will even ship to the US and 2) if so, how much shipping would be? I'd suspect that after paying for the antenna, forex fees, and the shipping, it probably wouldn't be worth the expense for the little perceived benefit.


----------



## lifespeed

ProjectSHO89 said:


> ...have you checked 1) to see if they will even ship to the US and 2) if so, how much shipping would be? I'd suspect that after paying for the antenna, forex fees, and the shipping, it probably wouldn't be worth the expense for the little perceived benefit.


Yes, they ship to the U.S. If you want to know shipping costs go ahead and ask them. I don't plan to change my configuration until SiliconDust ATSC 3.0 tuners are available, so won't be asking for a shipping quote.


----------



## nathill

lifespeed said:


> ... until SiliconDust ATSC 3.0 tuners are available....


Have you heard or read Silicon Dust is working on 3.0 tuners?
I'm a SiliconDust fanboy, and I see no indication they're doing anything about 3.0.
Hope you're right and I'm wrong!


----------



## steel guitar guy

After some online discussion with lifespeed[ and others] I have tried to contact ATV to determine shipping cost.. They don't seem interested, I have gotten no reply.. I will try again before giving up... Antenna itself is about $86 US dollars IF I figured correctly... Problem is, shipping it from Europe might cost double the cost of the antenna, in which case, its a washout, and the 91X would be my choice... bob


----------



## lifespeed

nathill said:


> Have you heard or read Silicon Dust is working on 3.0 tuners?
> I'm a SiliconDust fanboy, and I see no indication they're doing anything about 3.0.
> Hope you're right and I'm wrong!


I asked them this question on their forum, and one of the SD employees responded something to the effect of they will design such a product as the time approaches. If they don't they'll eventually be out of the OTA tuner business. Can't sell ATSC 1.0 forever. Despite much argument over this subject, I do believe it will eventually be obsoleted.


----------



## JHBrandt

holl_ands said:


> More on this subject...and be sure to scroll down a few more posts to see ADTech's Measurements on R-S LTE Filter that is effective for CURRENT TV Band...but will be useless against 600 MHz Band Cell Towers after the upcoming RePack:
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/186...82249-4-bay-mclapp-lte-700-a.html#post3022297


Channel Master also sells a 700MHz LTE filter for $25. I don't have the equipment to measure its response, but I can tell you it attenuates RF channel 51 quite noticeably, although it didn't seem to cause any noticeable problems on RF channel 50 (back when we had a low-power station on RF channel 50). Has anyone had the opportunity to put it on a spectrum analyzer and measure its response? How does it compare to the RS filter?

It does sound like a good 610 MHz post-repack LTE filter will be even more unfriendly to RF channel 36 (not to mention more expensive).


----------



## nathill

lifespeed said:


> I asked them this question on their forum, and one of the SD employees responded something to the effect of they will design such a product as the time approaches. If they don't they'll eventually be out of the OTA tuner business. Can't sell ATSC 1.0 forever. Despite much argument over this subject, I do believe it will eventually be obsoleted.


That's very good news it would seem to me if indeed you're correct regarding ATSC 3.0's future success.
My opinion, for what little it's worth, changes just about every day when it comes to ATSC 3.0's eventual fate.
On the downside, if you're correct, it bricks seven Silicon Dust tuners I own (three for my home, four for my Church).

Thanks for the thorough answer.


----------



## ncsercs

JHBrandt said:


> Channel Master also sells a 700MHz LTE filter for $25.


Which hasn't been in stock for eons (just checked) and don't know when it will be.


----------



## JHBrandt

Ah. Well, if it's not in stock, I doubt anyone will be ordering one to answer my question anytime soon!

But maybe someone already has one, along with a spectrum analyzer, and reads this thread. Hope springs eternal....

BTW, the CM-7777HD "Amplify" preamp has an integrated 700 MHz filter, but it seems to be different; I saw no attenuation of RF 51 with the Amplify.


----------



## lifespeed

*filtering cell towers*

Just thought I would make some comments regarding cellular and TV sharing adjacent channels.

Filtering does not just happen at the RF frequency, 600MHz in the post-repack example. It happens also at the filter before the analog-to-digital converter (ADC) after the RF signal is converter to baseband. I don't design tuners for a living, so don't know all the details, but this downconversion can also be done digitally with the ADC sampling the RF directly, called undersampling, and probably is in this case.

So if we have a good filter at the ADC, why do we need an RF filter? To avoid saturating the amplifier. All tuners have amplifiers. Hardware designed for the repack should have high Third Order Intercept (TOI) to make it more robust against strong adjacent channel signals, a particular problem when cell towers are likely to be physically closer and the signals are strong, while TV signals may be much weaker.

A realizable RF filter will not be able to do much for signals close to channel 37 just above 600MHz. For these adjacent channel cases you will rely on an amplifier that doesn't saturate and filtering at the downconverted frequency. So an RF filter may be able to help for many cell signals, but there will always be the possibility of a worst-case cell transmitter (I think T-Mobile bought 600MHz) where all you can do is rely on your amplifier's high linearity. This is basically the same consideration one has when choosing a preamp for a strong-signal TV transmitter area. Doesn't really matter that the transmitter is LTE instead of ATSC 1.0 or 3.0, any RF signal of the appropriate frequency range can saturate your amp.

The XB16A antenna tuned for repack is helpful, but no silver bullet. If you are unfortunate enough to be near a T-Mobile tower post repack you may need to be careful selecting your antenna, amplifier and RF filter. Hopefully new tuner designs take the modern spectrum into account and solve most of this for the average user, but there will always be some ugly worst cases.


----------



## Primestar31

I brought up this issue quite a while ago. Here's the filter you need, and it's readily available: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...elevision-spectrum-repack-7.html#post54865642


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## criggs

Moderator Dr. Don indicated this was a better location for a discussion of the Smartenna+ than in the Stream+ thread, where it was previously located.

Accordingly, picking up where we left off in that thread:



Valyard said:


> It works for my family. Others are claiming things, but don't have it or have used it, if I'm mistaken I apologize. Before my 30 day return is up, at my wife concern after reading recent posts, we borrowed her brothers Old Channel master Flatenna ( which is not amplified) and tested in same position and window. Old antenna has built in cable, so that only difference in connection from Smartenna+ To Samsung TV. When testing recording, Antenna connects to TiVo instead of TV. Same channel results. Flatenna received 22 channels, Smartenna+ received 66. I did 30+ minute TiVo record on troublesome WRC 4 on both. Smartenna+ was flawless, Flatenna dropped signal 3-4 times. My main concern was to have good quality flawless recordings, and was willing to pay for good antenna. After test, I replaced Smartenna+ and scanned, then ran Samsung tv scan and actually had 4 new channels WWTD low power and sub channels, total 70. However, they were not stable, and CBS ch 9 was not as good quality as before, ( ch 9 did not come in on Flatenna at all). I changed through different modes and mode 3 made all channels clear and stable. And again this morning all 70 channels are good, stable. Most important was my wife surely does not want it returned...I'm a real user, and it works. It works in my house and picks up more than twice as many channels as other antenna.


Clearly, Valyard, your experience with Smartenna+ was dramatic and positive. Looking around on this forum as well as in the google, I cannot find a single other user review of the device however. Which means that the jury's out on whether your experience was typical or unique and anecdotal. Anyone else tried the Smartenna+? Anyone else seen real reviews of the Smartenna+ from bona fide objective critics?

Just to set the context, I am in NYC. I use a Vizio Smart TV and a Channel Master DVR+. On the Vizio, using a Mohu Leaf, I receive dozens of channels. On the DVR+, with the precise same antenna in the same position, I receive 2, ever since my building installed new windows. No, that's not a typo: 2, not 20, 2.

Clearly my DVR+ is in danger of becoming a brick if I can't rectify this situation, and I'm not eager about having to switch to the inferior Stream+ if I don't have to (not that the Stream+ necessarily has a superior tuner either; that is also still an unknown also).


----------



## rabbit73

*Channel Master SMARTenna+, CM-3001HD*



criggs said:


> Moderator Dr. Don indicated this was a better location for a discussion of the Smartenna+ than in the Stream+ thread, where it was previously located.
> 
> Just to set the context, I am in NYC. I use a Vizio Smart TV and a Channel Master DVR+. On the Vizio, using a Mohu Leaf, I receive dozens of channels. On the DVR+, with the precise same antenna in the same position, I receive 2, ever since my building installed new windows. No, that's not a typo: 2, not 20, 2.
> 
> Clearly my DVR+ is in danger of becoming a brick if I can't rectify this situation, and I'm not eager about having to switch to the inferior Stream+ if I don't have to (not that the Stream+ necessarily has a superior tuner either; that is also still an unknown also).





> I* receive 2, ever since my building installed new windows. No, that's not a typo: 2, not 20, 2. *


If the DVR+ received more channels with the old windows, I would suspect that the new windows have low-E glass. The original type of low-E glass has a transparent metallic coating that will block TV signals; the new version is more transparent to RF signals. It was probably developed because of complaints from cell phone users when indoors.

The SMARTenna+ claims that it can simulate having the antenna in different locations indoors. It might be able to beamsteer, but that is not a realistic claim, because reception is not the same in all indoor locations; you must actually move the antenna to the best location.


> With seven different reception patterns inside, it's like having the antenna in seven different locations in the room at the same time.


*NOT*

https://www.channelmaster.com/SMARTenna_Indoor_TV_Antenna_s/368.htm

https://www.channelmaster.com/SMARTenna_Plus_p/cm-3001hd.htm

The MacVoices video at CES in Las Vegas makes claims that are a little more realistic.


----------



## JHBrandt

Well, I stand corrected. Because the SMARTenna just uses ordinary coax, and not a "smart antenna" RJ-45 jack, I assumed it wasn't a "smart" antenna at all, and that the name was just marketing hype. (Actually, knowing CM, it's probably still mostly marketing hype, but at least there's a grain of truth in there.)

Apparently, the way they got around that was, they just put a tuner (or something very similar) in the darn thing! You push a button, it scans your channels, and determines the best phase/gain settings for each one. Not sure how long that scan takes; probably about a minute.

OK, after watching the video, scratch that. The CM rep made a claim that's simply impossible, and blows my guess above out of the water. He said that pressing the button would rescan the channel you're currently tuned to! That makes no sense; there's no way the antenna could "know" which channel you're tuned to (especially if you're using a DVR with two tuners)!

So I now believe the button doesn't do a scan at all, but instead just selects the next phase/gain pattern from the seven available choices. Hopefully, one of the seven patterns will work for all the channels you're interested in.

The next thing CM needs to do is add a remote control, so you don't have to get up (thus changing the reflection pattern in the room) to push the button!

Anyway, rabbit73 is still correct; you still need to find the best location for your antenna, even this "SMARTenna." This makes the trial-and-error aspect even more cumbersome, as you'll have to put the SMARTenna through all seven patterns each time you move it!

Still, it sounds like the SMARTenna could be a problem-solver for some situations, especially for DVR+ owners. The DVR+ tuners are notoriously poor at dealing with multipath.

However, given his new situation with (apparently) low-E glass (and probably radiant barriers in the walls), CRiggs may be - what's the word? Oh, yes - "screwed." I wouldn't be surprised to learn the building owner who installed the new windows has a sweetheart deal with the cable provider.

BTW, I'm sure Dr. Don would be happy to move the relevant posts from the Stream+ thread to this one (including a post I made  didn't realize there were more than two before me) if you want.


----------



## criggs

JHBrandt said:


> Still, it sounds like the SMARTenna could be a problem-solver for some situations, especially for DVR+ owners.


Sounds like, yes, but we have yet to know for sure. Valyard is the only hand's-on report I've read from any user, and I've been scanning and scanning google for signs of some user feedback, without success. Could it be that Valyard is their first customer??

I do know that if the Stream+

1. Has better reception than the DVR+,
2. Has recordings that can be removed in order to be edited to remove commercials, 
3. Follows through on its promise to enable larger USB hard-drive storage,

then I'll be making the switch.

Absent 1 and 2, there's no reason to buy it. If Smartenna+ fixes my DVR+ problem then, as far as I can tell, there is no reason to buy the Stream+. If it does not, and if the Stream+ does have 1., then that might be an argument, in and of itself, to switch to the Stream+. 2. and 3. are not reasons in and of itself to switch from the DVR+ to the Stream+.

Part of the problem here, from the perspective of thread management, is that the three products are so closely intertwined and interwoven. The DVR+, the Stream+ and the Smartenna+ are inextricably linked, and it's almost impossible to talk about the one product without talking about all three.


----------



## JHBrandt

criggs said:


> Sounds like, yes, but we have yet to know for sure. Valyard is the only hand's-on report I've read from any user, and I've been scanning and scanning google for signs of some user feedback, without success. Could it be that Valyard is their first customer?


At least the first one who posts here! 

But I agree, and it sounds like your new situation with (apparently) low-E glass will make things challenging for *any* antenna. The one thing the SMARTenna has going for it (besides the seven patterns) is its integrated 18dB LNA (1dB noise figure according to the CM page), which despite your strong-signal location (I still remember your TVFool report) you probably now need behind all that signal-blocking material in your walls and (now) windows.

Basically what that means is, if you have a signal stronger than -90dBm, this antenna should let your DVR+ receive it. But the DVR+ tuners are already pretty sensitive; it's not likely there are many channels in the gap between -90dBm and wherever the DVR+'s tuners are (-85dBm?).

*Edit:* The above assumes the SMARTenna has no inherent gain (i.e., aside from the gain of the amp). If the amp gets a -90dBm signal, the SNR should be just barely enough to receive. If the antenna provides a few dB gain before the signal hits any electronics, your sensitivity will improve accordingly.

And, I just read your post where you said your Vizio TVs are still working, even with your current antenna, which implies the signals are strong enough - it's just that the low-E glass hasn't weakened your signals beyond hope, but has merely made your multipath problem even worse (because there's not an easy entry point for the direct signals any more).

So you might get lucky. The best advice I can give you right now is, make sure you can get your money back if it doesn't work.

(I'll comment on the rest of your post back at the Stream+ thread. I need to fix my last post anyway.)


----------



## criggs

JHBrandt said:


> I just read your post where you said your Vizio TVs are still working, even with your current antenna, which implies the signals are strong enough - it's just that the low-E glass hasn't weakened your signals beyond hope, but has merely made your multipath problem even worse (because there's not an easy entry point for the direct signals any more).


I have a vague recollection that someone on this forum a while back, it might even have been me or perhaps more than one person, speculated about the possibility of purchasing a very high-quality external tuner that would be able to properly handle the multipath problem (able to handle it as well as my Vizio, for example; it's frustrating that I have this superb tuner literally in my living-room, and there's no way I can take advantage of it in the DVR). That external tuner would then have two virtual RF channels that would be fed to the offending device, in this case the DVR+. The DVR+ would not realize that these two signals were anything but perfectly ordinary RF-plus-digital channels, albeit with extraordinarily high-quality signals. 

So, for example, you would configure the two outputs of the external tuner to feed out on two virtual unused RF and digital frequencies in the local area. Let's say the two frequencies you would choose would be RF channel 20, which would identify itself as digital channel 3.1, 3.2, 3.3 and 3.4, and RF channel 30, which would identify itself as digital channel 6.1, 6.2, 6.3 and 6.4.

The external tuner would have one coax output that would feed the antenna input of the DVR+.

You would run a scan on DVR+ to look for those two channels and add them to its channel list. You would program all your recording on the DVR+ to be for one of those two channels (obviously these would have to be manual recordings, since the DVR+'s guide would display "no information" for channels 3 and 6). On the external tuner, you would set your timer so that RF channel 34 digital channel 9.1, let's say, would be sent out on RF frequency 20, digital channel 3.1, at 630PM, while say, RF channel 48, digital channel 5.1, would be sent out on RF frequency 30, digital channel 6.1, at that same time. On the DVR+ you would program two 630PM recordings from digital channels 3.1 and 6.1 and voila!

Of course, the question is whether there is such an external tuner, whether it can create two of its own RF frequency barns (in the example above, those RF frequency barns are created/assigned to 20 and 30), and whether it has a single coax output which can be read by a processing device as just a regular antenna. If there is, that might be the solution.

Now it might be icing on the cake if one could program the external tuner to put out a PSIP-like data stream for the two channels which the DVR+ could read and ingest into its guide, without ever being aware that they weren't normal stations. What would the PSIP-like data stream say? Whatever the external tuner user would want it to say. That way one could avoid the need for manual recordings.


----------



## maxreactance

JHBrandt said:


> OK, after watching the video, scratch that. The CM rep made a claim that's simply impossible, and blows my guess above out of the water. He said that pressing the button would rescan the channel you're currently tuned to! That makes no sense; there's no way the antenna could "know" which channel you're tuned to (especially if you're using a DVR with two tuners)!


"It" (the "antenna") could know by the IF frequency from the TV/device tuner. 

Same way "they" can know what you're watching on broadcast TV, unless you install an IF trap in your antenna feedline. "They" can sit outside your house in a van, point a surveillance antenna at your antenna, capture the IF radiated from your antenna, and know you're watching a STATION on a particular physical frequency. 

I don't thing "they" can determine what sub-channel you're watching though, so "Big Brother" is only medium-sized in the DTV age... 

--
max


----------



## ADTech

Primestar31 said:


> I brought up this issue quite a while ago. Here's the filter you need, and it's readily available: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...elevision-spectrum-repack-7.html#post54865642


I appended some test results to the Repack-related thread for the filter that Primestar31 referenced. Post number 255.

Seemed more appropriate to put it there since it's unique to the post-repack spectrum but not particularly to ATSC 3.0 (which will, of course, be used in the repacked spectrum, I know).


----------



## tustinfarm

*Mast pole - impact on antenna performance?*

My antenna "stack" is a 91XG on top (UHF), and a Stellar 30-2476 (hi-VHF) right below it (snapshot attached), feeding into an RCA preamp, which works great. But of course, that's never good enough for signal "nuts" like me. I have played around with increasing the vertical separation of the two antennas but that did not seem to make much difference in terms of the raw signal strength of my two weakest channels of interest (RF 29/30; WANN/WTBS; both low power stations in Atlanta).

But I've always wondered about whether the mast pole itself, running right through the antenna field is compromising any of my signals. Since UHF is of highest interest (my two VHF regulars - RF 8/10 are rock solid), I could certainly push the 91XG further up, to the very top of the mast, thus getting it further out of the field.

Does anyone have any technical advice (based on _theory _or experimental _results_), on the impact of masts on antenna performance, good or bad? Trying to decide whether it's worth another climb up there with my wrenches.


----------



## holl_ands

Effect of VERTICAL Mounting Mast is very minimal....OTOH, signal strength can vary for fractions of a Wavelength difference [which are much smaller at UHF Freqs than VHF]:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/siting.html

Indeed the effect of all of the METAL of one Antenna in proximity of the OTHER Antenna is ALSO very minimal unless they are VERY Close (Gain) or within about 4-ft for F/B & F/R Radio degradation:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/stacked/stackuhfhivhf


----------



## JHBrandt

criggs said:


> I have a vague recollection that someone on this forum a while back, it might even have been me or perhaps more than one person, speculated about the possibility of purchasing a very high-quality external tuner that would be able to properly handle the multipath problem (able to handle it as well as my Vizio, for example; it's frustrating that I have this superb tuner literally in my living-room, and there's no way I can take advantage of it in the DVR). That external tuner would then have two virtual RF channels that would be fed to the offending device, in this case the DVR+.
> 
> Of course, the question is whether there is such an external tuner, whether it can create two of its own RF frequency barns (in the example above, those RF frequency barns are created/assigned to 20 and 30), and whether it has a single coax output which can be read by a processing device as just a regular antenna. If there is, that might be the solution.


You could sort of do that with existing equipment. You'd need two tuners that worked in your environment, with HDMI outputs and a timer function, as well as an ATSC RF modulator with two HDMI inputs.

Cheap Mstar boxes (HomeWorx, iVIEW) might fulfill the first requirement, and PVI makes some ATSC RF modulators that would fulfill the second. They're expensive though; the whole package would push close to $1000.

A specialized device (that eliminates the MPEG-2 decoding and re-encoding required by my solution, and therefore presumably reduces the cost somewhat) is possible in theory, but don't know of any such thing on the market.


----------



## lifespeed

criggs said:


> The external tuner would have one coax output that would feed the antenna input of the DVR+.


What you are talking about is demodulating the signal from the transmitter, and then modulating the digital data back onto an RF carrier of a different frequency, only to use your DVR+ to demodulate it again . While this product may exist in the context of commercial TV transmitters/repeaters, it is unlikely to be available at the consumer level in a product you could afford or use. Really, you are describing something of a Rube Goldberg approach if all you need is to get a better tuner located at your antenna. In that case, use a SiliconDust networked tuner as these are known to perform well. It is pretty easy to implement a DVR function in a PC connected to a networked tuner, however. See my sig for details.

No, this won't plug into your DVR+ coax input as the output from the SD tuner is an MPEG2 stream over Ethernet. If you're looking for a solution that somehow takes advantage of a better external tuner while still managing to make use of your DVR+ hardware I don't think you're going to find it. You bought an all-in-wonder solution; DVR+ with hard drive to store video, tuner to demodulate it, and some user interface with a remote control. It is an all-or-nothing proposition. A networked tuner is kind of the opposite; separate PC to act as DVR, separate remote tuner by the antenna, all tied together by your local network and software on the PC. It is a powerful solution, and the geek factor is not as bad as one might think. The software is written and available from several vendors, I prefer Emby.


----------



## JHBrandt

I know, it sounds crazy, but it's sort of understandable that someone who has invested in a particular piece of technology (such as this DVR+) wouldn't want to abandon it when it was rendered all-but-useless by an unforeseeable circumstance (building manager installed low-E windows, and the DVR+ tuners can no longer handle the degraded signals). Unfortunately, the DVR+ doesn't support any alternative to its own built-in tuners (such as streaming from an HDHR), so the only possible fix is to repair the degraded RF.

IMO, the "use a better tuner and remodulate the output" approach is just too costly. It would cost less to replace the DVR+, assuming you can return the replacement if it doesn't work. But a relatively inexpensive possible solution like the new SMARTenna is worth considering (again, as long as you can return it if it doesn't help).


----------



## criggs

lifespeed said:


> you are describing something of a Rube Goldberg approach if all you need is to get a better tuner located at your antenna. In that case, use a SiliconDust networked tuner as these are known to perform well. It is pretty easy to implement a DVR function in a PC connected to a networked tuner, however...your DVR+...is an all-or-nothing proposition. A networked tuner is kind of the opposite; separate PC to act as DVR, separate remote tuner by the antenna, all tied together by your local network and software on the PC...The software is written and available from several vendors, I prefer Emby.





JHBrandt said:


> It would cost less to replace the DVR+, assuming you can return the replacement if it doesn't work. But a relatively inexpensive possible solution like the new SMARTenna is worth considering (again, as long as you can return it if it doesn't help).


Thank you, LifeSpeed and JHBrandt, for weighing with suggestions. Seems to me like you've given me three ways to go:

1) Try to get a replacement for my DVR+ on the off-chance that there may be differences from model to model, and I might find myself with a better tuner. Of course, that assumes that Channel Master would be willing to replace a discontinued product.
2) See if I can get a money back return guarantee on the Smartenna+, and see whether that solves the problem.
3) Get a SiliconDust tuner, connect it to one of my PC's, then, on that PC, install Emby's DVR software on the Emby.

If I understand this correctly, the cheapest would be replacing the DVR+, assuming Channel Master would be willing to replace it.

Next up would be the Smartenna+, which is $89.

Finally,  LifeSpeed, how much is the SiliconDust tuner and the Emby software. How would I configure it so I can record two shows at the same time? Or would I have to have two PC's (I do), buy two tuners, install Emby on both PC's and connect one of the tuners each to the two PC's?

Thanks again for this help!!!


----------



## lifespeed

criggs said:


> Finally, LifeSpeed, how much is the SiliconDust tuner and the Emby software. How would I configure it so I can record two shows at the same time? Or would I have to have two PC's (I do), buy two tuners, install Emby on both PC's and connect one of the tuners each to the two PC's?


SiliconDust tuners are $99 for a dual tuner, $149 for the quad tuner. A single PC can record as many simultaneous channels as your tuner can support. Emby is $119 for a lifetime subscription. It is free to try, but there are too many limitations for the free version to be usable.

Of course whatever tuner equipment you buy will become obsolete over the next several years as ATSC 3.0 phases in. But we'll all want our TV in the meanwhile.


----------



## criggs

lifespeed said:


> SiliconDust tuners are $99 for a dual tuner, $149 for the quad tuner...Emby is $119 for a lifetime subscription. It is free to try, but there are too many limitations for the free version to be usable.


O.K., so the order of choice is, first, to call Channel Master and see if they'd be willing to send me a replacement DVR+, on the off-chance tuner performance would be better. If that doesn't work, or they refuse to do it, then get a money-back guarantee on the Smartenna+ and test that out. If that doesn't work, then, as a last resort, go the SiliconDust/Emby route. Hopefully I can get a free trial or money-back guarantee on the SD tuner to test that out. And, if that doesn't work, I guess my DVR+ then becomes a very expensive PBS recorder and that's about it.


----------



## tustinfarm

holl_ands said:


> Effect of VERTICAL Mounting Mast is very minimal....OTOH, signal strength can vary for fractions of a Wavelength difference [which are much smaller at UHF Freqs than VHF]:
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/siting.html
> 
> Indeed the effect of all of the METAL of one Antenna in proximity of the OTHER Antenna is ALSO very minimal unless they are VERY Close (Gain) or within about 4-ft for F/B & F/R Radio degradation:
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/stacked/stackuhfhivhf


Thanks holl_ands, _exactly _the information I was looking for - and the extensive set of experimental _results _is impressive. I am relieved to know that the vertical mast does not impact performance, presumably due to the polarization difference (versus horizontal). And yes, the UHF location signal variation due to the interference patterns is something I have definitely observed. Almost all of my stations are in the 2Edge zone, and I am grateful that they come in so well.

The reduction in the F/B ratios is something that I _might _be seeing on RF21 (WPBA in Atlanta). There is another RF21 station in Greenville SC (WHNS...moving to RF17 after repack), roughly on the backside, which I can detect as a separate ATSC pilot tone (22 Hz higher than WPBA) on the spectrum analyzer. It is typically within 15 dB of WPBA's, thus preventing a signal lock. I don't really need this weaker station anyway (already have strong PBS station on RF8), and my current mast is too short to provide the increased separation that would be required to "restore" the F/B ratio. But one of these days _I just know_ I'll be taking the hi-VHF off the mast just to see what it would do to the backside RF21 pilot tone intensity - the scientist in me is just too strong.


----------



## SFischer1

criggs said:


> ...
> 
> Finally, LifeSpeed, how much is the SiliconDust tuner and the Emby software. How would I configure it so I can record two shows at the same time? Or would I have to have two PC's (I do), buy two tuners, install Emby on both PC's and connect one of the tuners each to the two PC's?
> 
> Thanks again for this help!!!


I use different DVR software for my HDHR's, three tuners on my main antenna and one tuner with a separate antenna for a problem station that has a additional transmitter in a different direction. I have additional tuners, one of which has defective software and my very first one that does time shifting and has two separate antenna connections, one to the main antenna and one for a separate third antenna. The only cost in addition to the HDHR tuners is the cost of the electronic program listings $25 / Year and are great listings.

http://forums.schedulesdirect.org/ http://www.schedulesdirect.org/approvedsoftware lists many approved DVR apps.

HDHR's come in several models, my first one has two tuners in the same box with two antenna connections, the second on also has two tuners but only one antenna connection. I see that there now is a model with three tuners in a box. The tuners can be used by any PC on your network, I even use my Wireless Laptop at times. At times I have five (5) captures running on my main HTPC. Fast drives partitioned properly, separate drive controllers and drives that are fast and sort read and write requests 

NOTE! Now is perhaps not the best time to buy tuners due to the upcoming ATSC 3.0 change which may start slow or fast and end slow or fast but makes all ATSC 1.0 tuners worthless.

The software is CW_EPG:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-ho...homerun-myhd-fusionhdtv.html?highlight=cw_epg

I got my second HDHR for ~ $90. Ebay, who knows.

SHF


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## criggs

SFischer1 said:


> I have additional tuners,...one to the main antenna and one for a separate third antenna. The only cost in addition to the HDHR tuners is the cost of the electronic program listings $25 / Year and are great listings...The software is CW_EPG:
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-home-theater-computers/659993-cliff-watson-pvr-app-hd-homerun-myhd-fusionhdtv.html?highlight=cw_epg
> I got my second HDHR for ~ $90. Ebay, who knows.


Thanks for all that advice. Certainly some stuff to consider.

By the way, I was on the phone with Channel Master for an hour today. They will not replace the DVR+. They spent an hour looking at various things, and finally told me they were stumped. They suggested I try both the Channel Master LTE filter, $25, and the Smartenna+, $89, and they told me I would have thirty days to get my money back if neither worked.

Before junking the DVR+ and starting from scratch with a tuners/PC solution, I figure I'll try the hardware approach first. I guess I'll start with the LTE filter.


----------



## lifespeed

criggs said:


> Thanks for all that advice. Certainly some stuff to consider.
> 
> By the way, I was on the phone with Channel Master for an hour today. They will not replace the DVR+. They spent an hour looking at various things, and finally told me they were stumped. They suggested I try both the Channel Master LTE filter, $25, and the Smartenna+, $89, and they told me I would have thirty days to get my money back if neither worked.
> 
> Before junking the DVR+ and starting from scratch with a tuners/PC solution, I figure I'll try the hardware approach first. I guess I'll start with the LTE filter.


No surprises there, except that you bothered to spend the time to try. That was a foregone conclusion. If you have evidence the tuner is subpar, and it sounds like you do (TV tunes stations, DVR won't), the obvious answer is to switch to a good tuner. Just to be clear, you don't have outdoor antenna options? Lots of folks post here who can't be bothered to put up a proper antenna, they just go in circles spending 3X as much time messing around with an indoor antenna as it would have taken to put up a proper outdoor unit.

I don't begrudge you trying the other approaches first, they just seem unlikely. As far as the LTE filter, you might want to map your nearby towers and see if you're truly getting saturated by a nearby sub-800MHz transmitter. If you were being overloaded by a cell tower, wouldn't it saturate your TV tuner also?

Best of luck


----------



## criggs

lifespeed said:


> If you were being overloaded by a cell tower, wouldn't it saturate your TV tuner also?


Well, if one hypothesizes that I'm not being overloaded but merely somewhat affected, that would make sense of a better tuner being able to handle it and a worser tuner not being able to. Maybe.


----------



## tylerSC

The DVR+ had a problematic tuner. Subject to multipath problem and overload from the amplifier. The original Channel Master and Dish DVRs from Echostar were much better tuners. Remains to be seen how the Stream+ performs in terms of the tuner. But it is better to design your antenna set up to optimize local reception rather than deal with a problematic device or tuner.


----------



## JHBrandt

criggs said:


> I was on the phone with Channel Master for an hour today. They suggested I try both the Channel Master LTE filter, $25, and the Smartenna+, $89, and they told me I would have thirty days to get my money back if neither worked.
> 
> Before junking the DVR+ and starting from scratch with a tuners/PC solution, I figure I'll try the hardware approach first. I guess I'll start with the LTE filter.


I seriously doubt the LTE filter will help. But the last time I checked, they were out of stock anyway. Are they back in stock? If so, folks with the proper equipment (i.e., a spectrum analyzer) may want to test its performance vs. the old RS LTE filter.

The 30-day return on the SMARTenna is good news. The SMARTenna may actually help, but there's no way to be sure, so you may end up sending it back too.


lifespeed said:


> Just to be clear, you don't have outdoor antenna options?
> 
> Best of luck


Criggs can correct me if I've misremembered, but IIRC he's in a high-rise with no outdoor access, such as a balcony, at all.


tylerSC said:


> The DVR+ had a problematic tuner. Subject to multipath problem and overload from the amplifier. The original Channel Master and Dish DVRs from Echostar were much better tuners. Remains to be seen how the Stream+ performs in terms of the tuner. But it is better to design your antenna set up to optimize local reception rather than deal with a problematic device or tuner.


Early Stream+ reports haven't been encouraging. From what I've read, the tuner's aren't as sensitive as they could be. As a DVR, the Stream+ has turned out to be disappointing, so it's probably not the Android criggs is looking for anyway 

I'd probably try the SMARTenna first; if it doesn't help, send it back and start looking for other DVR options. The DVR+ will sell well on eBay.


----------



## criggs

JHBrandt said:


> I seriously doubt the LTE filter will help.


I thought about it, and most seem in agreement that LTE interference would be uniform and would not be affected by antenna position. That is definitely NOT the case with me, so I finally decided to try the Smartenna+ first. 

Since many of the stations are in the process of moving from the Empire State Building back to the rebuilt World Trade Center, there appears also to be a very recent issue (just the last week or two) with signal strength. In the past, signal amplification didn't look like it would be part of the solution. However, based on what's been happening in recent weeks, I'm actively considering a second look at an amplifier as well.



JHBrandt said:


> Criggs can correct me if I've misremembered, but IIRC he's in a high-rise with no outdoor access, such as a balcony, at all.


That's correct.



JHBrandt said:


> I'd probably try the SMARTenna first; if it doesn't help, send it back and start looking for other DVR options.


In that regard, the Channel Master engineer told me something interesting. He told me one of the most important reasons why TV reception tends to be better than DVR+ reception is due to the splitter inside the DVR+. There is only one tuner inside a TV. But inside the DVR+ there are two tuners, and a splitter feeding both. Ironically, therefore, one possible solution might be to find a DVR+ that only has ONE tuner, and simply accept that I will only be able to make one recording at a time. Since that's normally my situation anyway (the only multiple recordings I do are the nightly 30-minute newscasts, and I'm covered there on PS Vue anyway), that might be the next way to go, if such an animal exists.


----------



## lifespeed

criggs said:


> In that regard, the Channel Master engineer told me something interesting. He told me one of the most important reasons why TV reception tends to be better than DVR+ reception is due to the splitter inside the DVR+. There is only one tuner inside a TV. But inside the DVR+ there are two tuners, and a splitter feeding both. Ironically, therefore, one possible solution might be to find a DVR+ that only has ONE tuner, and simply accept that I will only be able to make one recording at a time. Since that's normally my situation anyway (the only multiple recordings I do are the nightly 30-minute newscasts, and I'm covered there on PS Vue anyway), that might be the next way to go, if such an animal exists.


That is a design error! The first amplifier in the cascade inside the tuner should be placed before the splitter. It sounds like the DVR+ is a bad design, you have plenty of evidence and anecdotes supporting this. SiliconDust has two or four tuners, but no reception issues because they put the internal amplifier before the splitter where it belongs, this is just basic RF engineering . I think you are wasting your time with the DVR+, if I were you I would install a good tuner like the latest SiliconDust model first. It doesn't make sense to try and crutch a bad design, replace the problem component and go from there.


----------



## JHBrandt

criggs said:


> I'm actively considering a second look at an amplifier as well.


Remember the SMARTenna has one built-in, so you don't need to buy a separate one unless you use a different antenna. But I agree; now that you're trapped behind low-E glass, it's likely you need some amplification; even more so if your transmitting towers are moving farther away.


criggs said:


> In that regard, the Channel Master engineer told me something interesting. He told me one of the most important reasons why TV reception tends to be better than DVR+ reception is due to the splitter inside the DVR+. There is only one tuner inside a TV. But inside the DVR+ there are two tuners, and a splitter feeding both. Ironically, therefore, one possible solution might be to find a DVR+ that only has ONE tuner, and simply accept that I will only be able to make one recording at a time. Since that's normally my situation anyway (the only multiple recordings I do are the nightly 30-minute newscasts, and I'm covered there on PS Vue anyway), that might be the next way to go, if such an animal exists.


It could be the CM engineer was just wrong about how the DVR+ is designed. In my environment, the DVR+ tuners are two of the best, mostly because I have an outdoor antenna that vastly reduces the multipath problems to which it's so sensitive.

But lifespeed is right; if the DVR+ is indeed designed that way, that's ridiculous. It would reduce the tuners' sensitivity by 3 or 4 dB for no good reason. OTOH, an amp (like the one in the SMARTenna) would easily correct for such a design mistake, so it's not fatal.


----------



## holl_ands

criggs said:


> Well, if one hypothesizes that I'm not being overloaded but merely somewhat affected, that would make sense of a better tuner being able to handle it and a worser tuner not being able to. Maybe.


True "Overload" is when an ON-CHANNEL Signal is so strong it Saturates the Tuner, preventing reception on any other Freq within that SAME Band (there are usually two separate Hi-VHF and UHF Band Tuners). CECB Max Input Spec was -8 dBm, with actual performance in 0 to +10 dBm region. In looking at Hundreds of TVFool Reports, I have NOT seen any that came anywhere close to these levels....although they COULD if using a Preamp. [BTW: I'm pretty sure that all of the CECB's they tested were Super-Heterodyne Type and did NOT include the Double-Conversion Type used in most "Silicon" Tuner Chips....which do NOT have an Input RF Tuned Stage to suppress Out-Of-Band Signals....so YMMV.]

What is typically called "Overload" is actually Desensitization of Weak Channel positions by Intermodulation Distortion (IMD) or Harmonic Distortion products falling on top of that Weak Channel position. Harmonic Distortion is more of a problem for Hi-VHF Band, due to Second Order Harmonics from Strong Stations in FM Band. IMD is caused by 2 or more STRONG signals in the same...or nearby Bands MIXING with each other due to non-linear Mixer in the Tuner, resulting in a plethora of Sum and Difference Freqs, incl Sum & Difference against the Second Harmonics [see my post below for detailed explanation links]. Hence Transmissions from ATT Towers in 734-746 MHz Band can MIX with say 695 MHz (Ch51), resulting in IMD on Ch41-45 and 49-51. And if 608 MHz (Ch36), then IMD on Ch14-15 and Ch33-39, Etc. And for Verizon (et.al) Towers Transmitting on 746-757 MHz, then with Ch51 IMD ends up on Ch39-43 and Ch48-51, Etc. [Per my Third Order IMD Calculator Spread Sheet]:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/186...o-53-6165va-pics-post-57-a-9.html#post2864889
https://www.tvtechnology.com/expertise/outofband-interference-myth-or-reality
https://www.tvtechnology.com/expertise/4g-interference-to-uhf-dtv
http://www.erodocdb.dk/docs/doc98/official/pdf/ECCRep148.pdf [Although for higher Euro LTE 800 MHz Band]

A 4G/LTE Tower would need to be within about 2-miles for it to MAYBE be a problem for a TV Tuner:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...-related-hardware-topic-547.html#post44090266

And as a rule of thumb, to prevent IMD in the Tuner due to Preamp Signals being "Too High" and thereby degrading its SFDR (Spurious Free Dynamic Range), I advise making calculations to ensure that Input Level to Tuner does NOT exceed about -10 to -15 dBm....lower being better.


----------



## criggs

lifespeed said:


> I think you are wasting your time with the DVR+, if I were you I would install a good tuner like the latest SiliconDust model first.


As I understand your previous posts, one connects the antenna to the 4-tuner Silicon Dust Tuner which, in turn, connects to a PC (by USB?), and, on the PC, one installs DVR software which can control the four tuners and make up to four recordings at the same time, on the PC's designated drive (probably a large external USB hard drive I would get for that purpose). Is that basically the idea?


----------



## lifespeed

criggs said:


> As I understand your previous posts, one connects the antenna to the 4-tuner Silicon Dust Tuner which, in turn, connects to a PC (by USB?), and, on the PC, one installs DVR software which can control the four tuners and make up to four recordings at the same time, on the PC's designated drive (probably a large external USB hard drive I would get for that purpose). Is that basically the idea?


Ethernet, not USB. One can run DVR software from a number of vendors. Emby is a full-blown media server that includes DVR functionality. I would be cautious of USB drives for a media server application, one wants good performance to record 4 channels while simultaneously streaming a recording from the same hard drive. While it is possible to get good performance with USB 3.0 or 3.1 (or Thunderbolt 2.0) external drives, most of the products out there are poor performers built to a price point. External (or internal) SATA 2.0 or SATA 3.0 is simple to implement with excellent performance and low cost, already implemented on your motherboard. Unless you're planning to use a laptop . . .


----------



## lifespeed

JHBrandt said:


> It could be the CM engineer was just wrong about how the DVR+ is designed. In my environment, the DVR+ tuners are two of the best, mostly because I have an outdoor antenna that vastly reduces the multipath problems to which it's so sensitive.


I hope the CM engineer knows his product, probably he was right about the splitter. If you have a good antenna setup (no preamp?) and have decent signal levels you could easily lose a few dB and see no degradation. These sorts of performance differences like preamp or tuner noise figures, antenna gain, directivity, multipath, etc. are often invisible to the casual user unless you are out on the fringe, a few dB from minimum noise margin.

I have no doubt DVR+ works just fine for you. What is the lowest noise margin signal you receive?


----------



## eherberg

A CM 'engineer'? How could he be an 'engineer'? CM doesn't actually 'make' anything. They purchase rights to other people's products and slap their name on it. Is there anything actually produced by Channel Master that didn't exist in another form first (or was seen at a demo during CES)?


----------



## lifespeed

eherberg said:


> A CM 'engineer'? How could he be an 'engineer'? CM doesn't actually 'make' anything. They purchase rights to other people's products and slap their name on it. Is there anything actually produced by Channel Master that didn't exist in another form first (or was seen at a demo during CES)?


LOL, and since when do engineers answer customer support phone calls? I haven't seen much mention of CM on this forum in the context of TV reception hardware either, most folks here deal with the mfg's and their distributors. CM is in the twilight zone between contract manufacturer and distributor.


----------



## criggs

JHBrandt said:


> Remember the SMARTenna has one built-in, so you don't need to buy a separate one unless you use a different antenna.


So, actually, that makes my life easier either way. It gets me both a possibly better antenna plus amplification that I didn't already have. If this works, that's the solution. If it doesn't, I will have eliminated both the Smartenna+ and an amplifier as a potential solution, leaving only the LTE filter.

Of course, there's this other wild card now about getting an OTA DVR with only one tuner, although some seem to be expressing concern that weak feeds to tuners has more to do with potentially uniquely bad design of the DVR+ than with an inevitable byproduct of multiple tuners.

If the DVR+ in fact has some uniquely bad design features, perhaps the next step is to get a different OTA DVR like the HomeRun or a lifetime Tivo.


----------



## criggs

lifespeed said:


> Ethernet, not USB. One can run DVR software from a number of vendors. Emby is a full-blown media server that includes DVR functionality. I would be cautious of USB drives for a media server application, one wants good performance to record 4 channels while simultaneously streaming a recording from the same hard drive. While it is possible to get good performance with USB 3.0 or 3.1 (or Thunderbolt 2.0) external drives, most of the products out there are poor performers built to a price point. External (or internal) SATA 2.0 or SATA 3.0 is simple to implement with excellent performance and low cost, already implemented on your motherboard. Unless you're planning to use a laptop . . .


Unfortunately all I have are laptops: a Windows 8 Toshiba, a Windows 7 HP and a Windows XP Toshiba.


----------



## criggs

lifespeed said:


> LOL, and since when do engineers answer customer support phone calls?


He didn't. At first I got the usual pen-pusher. After talking with me about ten minutes, she decided she was in over her head, so she made a phone appointment for me for later that afternoon with someone named Tom, whom she described as one of their engineers. Sure enough, three hours later, to the minute, Tom called me and spent about an hour talking about the symptoms, having me try various things and going over possible solutions. He sure sounded like an engineer to me.


----------



## JHBrandt

eherberg said:


> A CM 'engineer'? How could he be an 'engineer'? CM doesn't actually 'make' anything. They purchase rights to other people's products and slap their name on it. Is there anything actually produced by Channel Master that didn't exist in another form first (or was seen at a demo during CES)?


That's correct. We keep forgetting that the DVR+ was actually designed and manufactured by Echostar. To CM's specs, to be sure, but I seriously doubt CM micromanaged the details of the RF input section's design.

Of course, CM probably has the DVR+'s schematics and may well have engineers who understand them, but I stand by my opinion that Tom who criggs spoke to was probably wrong about the DVR+ design. That seems to be a common myth among DVR owners: the more tuners, the less signal each individual tuner gets (and they often overestimate the effect that would have even if it were true); so I can imagine someone at CM falling for it too. But I've never bought it.

I do understand criggs's frustration. Even behind low-E glass, his TV tuners still work, so while the TV signals are probably weaker, they're still strong enough to receive even with a couple of those flat antennas. But that glass sent his DVR+ into a tailspin. It should work, but it doesn't. We do know the DVR+ is susceptible to multipath - criggs has always had problems in that area, and it's plausible the multipath problems got much worse with the glass change - so multipath is a reasonable guess, but we really don't know for sure. Hopefully the SMARTenna will help.


----------



## Valyard

I finally found where our Smartenna+ discussion was "re-located". I have been hesitant to make more comments as I know nothing about antenna tech. I'm simply a customer who purchased and enjoys the Smartenna+. 

I would feel pretty bad if a member spent $90 hard earned bucks based on my comments, only to find out it didn't meet their particular needs. At least now, ChannelMaster has posted users reviews on their site. It's easy to find. They also advertise a fair return policy. 

I just wanted to post a quickie once I actually found the "official Antenna" thread.

Good Luck with your tuning issues.


----------



## JHBrandt

CM does offer 30-day returns, but you need to be willing to exercise that option if the SMARTenna doesn't work out for you.

I consider the SMARTenna a "semi-smart" antenna. A "true" smart antenna (with that RJ-45 connector) would have a significant drawback: only one tuner can control the antenna at a time! (Rotators have the same problem, of course.)

So even if a smart antenna optimizes reception for the station that particular tuner is receiving, there's no guarantee any other station is even remotely optimized. So a "true" smart antenna would be a bad idea for a multi-tuner device like a TiVo, DVR+, Stream+, or HDHR, to name a few. That may be why they never caught on.

Besides, almost no devices offer that smart antenna jack anymore. If they have an RJ-45 jack, it's for Ethernet. So the SMARTenna is a compromise: it does beam-steering like other smart antennas, but just has 7 reception patterns you can cycle through by pressing a button. The connector is a standard F-connector as with any other antenna.

Time will tell whether that's a good compromise.


----------



## tylerSC

Valyard said:


> I finally found where our Smartenna+ discussion was "re-located". I have been hesitant to make more comments as I know nothing about antenna tech. I'm simply a customer who purchased and enjoys the Smartenna+.
> 
> I would feel pretty bad if a member spent $90 hard earned bucks based on my comments, only to find out it didn't meet their particular needs. At least now, ChannelMaster has posted users reviews on their site. It's easy to find. They also advertise a fair return policy.
> 
> I just wanted to post a quickie once I actually found the "official Antenna" thread.
> 
> Good Luck with your tuning issues.


If it solves the problem of having to get up and adjust the rabbit ears all the time, then perhaps it is a good antenna. But if you have to get up and push a button every time you change a channel, then it doesn't solve the fundamental problem of having to get up out of the chair. If they ever solve that dilemma, then they will truly have a smart antenna. But good that it works well for you, and hopefully it will also be of benefit to others.


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## criggs

Valyard said:


> I would feel pretty bad if a member spent $90 hard earned bucks based on my comments, only to find out it didn't meet their particular needs.


In that case, you better be rooting for me to be thrilled when I receive the device next Wednesday! Looks like I'll have to get an additional power strip before then, by the way, since the Smartenna+'s plug looks HUGE.



Valyard said:


> At least now, ChannelMaster has posted users reviews on their site.


And I must say the 13 reviews so far look quite promising (although Channel Master may be censoring them, perhaps even deleting or creating them, so a grain of salt may be indicated...).



Valyard said:


> Good Luck with your tuning issues.


Thanks!


----------



## JHBrandt

tylerSC said:


> If ... you have to get up and push a button every time you change a channel, then it doesn't solve the fundamental problem of having to get up out of the chair. If they ever solve that dilemma, then they will truly have a smart antenna.


That particular problem could be solved with a remote control (and I'm surprised CM didn't think to include one), but I know what you mean. What about a DVR that starts recording a channel at a certain time? How does it "push the button?" Even if the antenna had a remote, the DVR would need an IR blaster to optimize the signal it's receiving - and they'd have to be designed to work together, etc.

That's what true smart antennas were designed to do, but even they don't quite solve the problem of a 2- (or more) tuner DVR.


criggs said:


> In that case, you better be rooting for me to be thrilled when I receive the device next Wednesday!


We are! But you'll probably have to put in some work, no matter how good it is. I'd expect to hook it up to the DVR+, scan channels, note which ones I got, then move to the next setting and repeat the process 6 more times. Then I'd switch back to the setting that got the most channels I care about, scan once more, then finally, switch to the other settings and manually scan in the channels that only work on that setting. And you'll probably still have to switch settings from time to time!

All that would be easier if CM had included an LED display to show which setting the antenna is on. Maybe the SMARTenna 2 will add the remote control and LED display.


criggs said:


> I must say the 13 reviews so far look quite promising (although Channel Master may be censoring them, perhaps even deleting or creating them, so a grain of salt may be indicated...).


I must say I don't generally trust the reviews on brand-name Web sites for that reason. Reviews on 3rd-party sites like Amazon are usually better (although you do need to actually read them and not just rely on the average number of stars, since some unscrupulous sellers have been known to "stuff the ballot box"). But at this point I have no reason to doubt that the SMARTenna has helped folks even besides Valyard


----------



## criggs

JHBrandt said:


> I'd expect to hook it up to the DVR+, scan channels, note which ones I got, then move to the next setting and repeat the process 6 more times. Then I'd switch back to the setting that got the most channels I care about, scan once more, then finally, switch to the other settings and manually scan in the channels that only work on that setting.


Makes sense; will do.



JHBrandt said:


> And you'll probably still have to switch settings from time to time!


I hardly pay any attention to Titan's program listings any more, since I've been doing almost all my local station programming through Vue since the "troubles" (with the lucky exception of PBS). However, if this works, I assume there will be times when I will want to record on the DVR+ from more than one channel again; which means there may be times when the two channels will be incompatible with each other in the Smartenna+ profiles. At that point, I will have to make a choice as to which program to record on the DVR+ and which one to record on Vue. Still, it will be nice if I can record in full broadcast 1080 again. Also, if I can depend on the DVR+ again, I will be able to remove a lot of the local station clutter on my Vue subscription My Shows page, which will be quite a relief.



JHBrandt said:


> I must say I don't generally trust the reviews on brand-name Web sites for that reason.


There are a few that appear to be real-life descriptions and not suspiciously complimentary. Here are some of those plausible quotes: 

"it should have a base to support it. I do not want to mount it on a wall. I would rather just stand it up." My summary: Inconvenient to set up.

"I was able to receive more channels but not as many with a outside Antenna...Suggestion: Replace the push button at the bottom of the unit to fine time with a remote." My summary: Outside antenna better, more powerful remote needed.

"before I used the antenna I had 0 channels. You must also keep in mind I am surround by trees. With the SMARTenna+ I currently now have 4 channels. I would think it would work allot better if I weren't surrounded by large trees. I also think this antenna would work much better in the city, I'm in a rural area. If your in my situation try and outside antenna" My summary: Not for rural wooded areas, use outside antenna instead.

"there is no way to know which of the 7 antenna configurations it's currently on. And you have to get up and walk to it if you want to change the configuration, which I've had to do if the wind outside shifts. It would be nice if there were a remote control device or just a smartphone app one could use to switch between the configurations." My summary: Improve user interface with better remote or smartphone app.

"Fair to no reception in the lo-VHF band, two broadcasters with eight subchannels at 35 miles, one being a major station this market. Eliminated VHF difficulties by piggy backing a VHF di-pole antenna." My summary: weak lo-VHF reception.

It's interesting to note that the other eight reviews are relentlessly complimentary. I suspect those were the "seed" reviews which CM planted. I believe the ones I quote above are genuine. The 5 reviews I quote from above provide an average 3.8-star rating. It's also unsettling to note that there is no obvious link to write and upload one's own review (unless I missed it), which tells me these are invitation-only reviews.



JHBrandt said:


> Reviews on 3rd-party sites like Amazon are usually better (although you do need to actually read them and not just rely on the average number of stars, since some unscrupulous sellers have been known to "stuff the ballot box").


Actually there are some Channel Master antennas that show up on Amazon with customer reviews. No listing for the Smartenna+ yet however. It looks like CM has not released the Smartenna+ for third-party sales yet.


----------



## JHBrandt

criggs said:


> "Fair to no reception in the lo-VHF band, two broadcasters with eight subchannels at 35 miles, one being a major station this market. Eliminated VHF difficulties by piggy backing a VHF di-pole antenna." My summary: weak lo-VHF reception.


That's going to be a problem with any antenna that isn't unreasonably large for indoors. Aside from rabbit ears stretched out to 8 feet or so, I think the best you could do for VHF-Lo would be a large loop that you might be able to conceal behind an open door. Or you could employ "loading" reactance, like the small FM antennas cars use nowadays. (Are you old enough to remember the trick of balling up aluminum foil on the ends of your rabbit ears? Same idea.) Either way, the gain wouldn't be great.


----------



## criggs

JHBrandt said:


> That's going to be a problem with any antenna that isn't unreasonably large for indoors. Aside from rabbit ears stretched out to 8 feet or so, I think the best you could do for VHF-Lo would be a large loop that you might be able to conceal behind an open door. Or you could employ "loading" reactance, like the small FM antennas cars use nowadays. (Are you old enough to remember the trick of balling up aluminum foil on the ends of your rabbit ears? Same idea.) Either way, the gain wouldn't be great.


Actually, I'm hoping I won't have to worry too much about that. Looking at the results for my address at http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=903834d1b95528 , I note that there is only one lo-VHF channel in area, and that is 3 (33), and that's not a channel I watch. Ironically, I receive that fairly well at the moment! 

My main concern in this area is 7. At the moment my reception of 7 is spotty (that station has the same virtual and real channel), and if 7 is part of that lo-VHF category, that may be one channel which is a lost cause no matter what.

One huge peculiarity in my TV fool report: NOT ONE WORD ABOUT WNET CHANNEL 13, PBS!!! What's up with that??


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## nathill

criggs said:


> Actually, I'm hoping I won't have to worry too much about that. Looking at the results for my address at http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=903834d1b95528 , I note that there is only one lo-VHF channel in area, and that is 3 (33), and that's not a channel I watch. Ironically, I receive that fairly well at the moment!
> 
> My main concern in this area is 7. At the moment my reception of 7 is spotty (that station has the same virtual and real channel), and if 7 is part of that lo-VHF category, that may be one channel which is a lost cause no matter what.
> 
> One huge peculiarity in my TV fool report: NOT ONE WORD ABOUT WNET CHANNEL 13, PBS!!! What's up with that??


Channel 7 is hi-vhf if I'm not mistaken.
http://otadtv.com/frequency/index.html


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## JHBrandt

Channel 7 is VHF-Hi, 174-180 MHz, so it should be OK with the SMARTenna.

TVFool has had some database issues with the repacking plan. A few channels, such as WNET/13, may be missing. Unfortunately that's been a problem for a few months now.

RabbitEars.info's search page will have all your channels. Use it sparingly though; the RabbitEars server was intended primarily to be a database server and RF propagation calculations take a toll on it.


----------



## eherberg

It would be interesting to know the results of VHF-Hi with the Smartenna+ device. Those flat form-factor antennas are typically still meant as UHF antennas. Gain on VHF-Hi is usually much less. Whatever magical 'active beam steering' may or may not be going on, I wonder if the original form factor it is built around is still the old bow-tie design that these flat antenna's usually don't stray too far from?


----------



## rabbit73

It is the real channel number that determines what antenna is needed.

VHF-Low, real channels 2-6
VHF-High, real channels 7-13
UHF, real channels 14-51

The virtual channel number (like 5.1) is a holdover from the analog TV days to maintain the identity of the station, and is what the TV displays.

If you use the virtual channel number, please use the decimal form to avoid confusion with the real channel number.


----------



## rabbit73

I'm repeating the quote of your initial post, because I'm not ready to give up on the DVR+ because there are some questions unanswered:


criggs said:


> Just to set the context, I am in NYC. I use a Vizio Smart TV and a Channel Master DVR+. On the Vizio, using a Mohu Leaf, I receive dozens of channels. On the DVR+, with the precise same antenna in the same position, I receive 2, ever since my building installed new windows. No, that's not a typo: 2, not 20, 2.
> Clearly my DVR+ is in danger of becoming a brick if I can't rectify this situation, and I'm not eager about having to switch to the inferior Stream+ if I don't have to (not that the Stream+ necessarily has a superior tuner either; that is also still an unknown also).


I said that I suspected that the new windows hand low-E glass, but you didn't confirm or deny that.

Also, you said that the DVR+ only got 2 channels after the new windows were installed. Did you test it before the new windows were installed? What I'm trying to figure out is, was the reduction in the number of channels caused by the new windows, or caused some deficiency in the DVR+. What were the 2 channels that you did get?


----------



## rabbit73

criggs said:


> Looking at the results for my address at http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=903834d1b95528 , I note that there is only one lo-VHF channel in area, and that is 3 (33), and that's not a channel I watch. Ironically, I receive that fairly well at the moment!


Thank you for the signal report. It shows extremely strong signals; strong enough to cause overload as indicated by the signal power numbers highlighted in red. Of course, the report assumes your antenna is outside and in the clear. Also, since you are so close to the transmitters, the strongest part of the transmitted beam might be well above your location 270 feet above ground level.

One measure of signal strength is the Noise Margin on your report. You can see that many are listed as signals that might cause overload, even before adding any antenna or preamp gain.










Interpreting Noise Margin in the TV Fool Report
http://www.aa6g.org/DTV/Reception/tvfool_nm.html

Since your antenna doesn't have much gain for VHF-Low channels, real channel 3 might not be causing overload.



> My main concern in this area is 7. At the moment my reception of 7 is spotty (that station has the same virtual and real channel), and if 7 is part of that lo-VHF category, that may be one channel which is a lost cause no matter what.


As stated by others, real channel 7 is VHF-High; your antenna doesn't have as much gsin for VHF signals as it does for UHF signals. Also, it is weaker than you strongest signals, making it more susceptible to interference.


> One huge peculiarity in my TV fool report: NOT ONE WORD ABOUT WNET CHANNEL 13, PBS!!! What's up with that??


As previously noted, the database used by TVFool to generate signal reports has errors. They don't have sufficient staff to keep up with the changes caused by UHF channel Repack as a result of the FCC auction of UHF channels 38-51 to the cellular interests.


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## rabbit73

This is your TVFool signal report:










A report by rabbitears.info shows WNET 13 and its translators WMBQ and WNCT, all of which will move to channel 12:


----------



## criggs

rabbit73 said:


> I said that I suspected that the new windows hand low-E glass, but you didn't confirm or deny that.


That is correct. That is because I'm afraid I have no idea, and I doubt that the building does either. They picked the design, they hired the contractors, and that's that. I doubt that they know any more details than that.



rabbit73 said:


> Also, you said that the DVR+ only got 2 channels after the new windows were installed. Did you test it before the new windows were installed?


Much more than tested it. I used it regularly between November 16 and November 17. It was no great shakes even then, but at least a little fiddling always got me good reception with the 8 channels that were really important to me. I always had to sacrifice, meaning if I needed this channel to be good for x amount of hours, it always meant that I would have to sacrifice that channel, and so forth and so on. But at least I could pull them in and get decent recordings.



rabbit73 said:


> What I'm trying to figure out is, was the reduction in the number of channels caused by the new windows, or caused some deficiency in the DVR+.


I don't know. The timing was certainly suspicious however. The big degradation started to occur after they put in the scaffolding and started to install the windows. Even then, however, my signal strength was not initially affected, only the signal quality (which of course is enough to destroy good reception). Even then, with most channels, excessive additional fiddling normally was able to bring a desired station in. However, it was at that point that 25.3, CUNY, became almost impossible. I'd say I was able to get good reception for the very interesting movies they broadcast maybe one out of five attempts, whereas previously I'd say my attempt was successful about half the time.



rabbit73 said:


> What were the 2 channels that you did get?


Do get; present tense. They are normally 11.1 and so on, and 13.1 and so on. One peculiarity however, which just hit in the last week or so, is that even the signal strength is now rather low, which has never occurred before. For example, my current signal strength on 11 is 42 and my current signal strength with 13 is 57. I'm guessing it has something to do with the move from ESB to WTC.

And throughout this entire ordeal and this entire saga, my Vizio TV reception has not been affected at all, as far as I can tell. I wish there was a way to look at signal strength and quality on the Vizio, but I've never been successful in finding that menu. I'm sure it exists however.


----------



## criggs

rabbit73 said:


> Thank you for the signal report. It shows extremely strong signals; strong enough to cause overload as indicated by the signal power numbers highlighted in red. Of course, the report assumes your antenna is outside and in the clear. Also, since you are so close to the transmitters, the strongest part of the transmitted beam might be well above your location 270 feet above ground level.


One factor which may or may not be playing a role is my elevation. I'm on the 27th floor. I'm figuring that my ceilings are probably roughly 8 feet high, and there are roughly two feet of flooring on each level, so I'm probably about 270 feet high. That might be an overestimate, but that's what I put into my TV fool profile. I'm a bit surprised that TV fool doesn't also ask for exposure; my apartment faces East. Well, perhaps not due East; Manhattan is rotated clockwise a bit, and I face the East River directly, so, in fact, I'm facing Southeast.


----------



## rabbit73

Thank you for the details; I'm trying to get a handle on it before giving up.


What is the model number of the Vizio?


----------



## rabbit73

> I'm a bit surprised that TV fool doesn't also ask for exposure; my apartment faces East.


The software only uses elevation and azimuth; it doesn't know about buildings, trees, or ground clutter. We have to ask you about that.


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## criggs

rabbit73 said:


> thank you for the details; i'm trying to get a handle on it before giving up. What is the model number of the vizio?


e24-c1.


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## criggs

rabbit73 said:


> The software only uses elevation and azimuth; it doesn't now about buildings, trees, or ground clutter. We have to ask you about that.


Still, one would think that the fact that my windows have a Southeastern exposure would play a role in determining the relative strength of the various stations at my location, and would therefore be information they would want to have.


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## rabbit73

> my apartment faces East. Well, perhaps not due East; Manhattan is rotated clockwise a bit, and I face the East River directly, so, in fact, I'm facing Southeast.


Something like this, for example?


----------



## criggs

rabbit73 said:


> Something like this, for example?


Basically yes. A high-rise with windows facing Southeast, yes.


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## JHBrandt

criggs said:


> One peculiarity however, which just hit in the last week or so, is that even the signal strength is now rather low, which has never occurred before. For example, my current signal strength on 11 is 42 and my current signal strength with 13 is 57. I'm guessing it has something to do with the move from ESB to WTC.
> 
> And throughout this entire ordeal and this entire saga, my Vizio TV reception has not been affected at all, as far as I can tell. I wish there was a way to look at signal strength and quality on the Vizio, but I've never been successful in finding that menu. I'm sure it exists however.


Good answers. BTW, for the benefit of Rabbit73 and others who probably lack experience with DVR+ signal strength readings, 42 and 57 are extremely low readings. By way of comparison, when my HDHR reads 72, my DVR+ reads about 98; when the HDHR reads 62, the DVR+ reads about 74; when the HDHR reads 56, the DVR+ reads about 70. (These are all signal strength readings, not signal quality.)

If the signal is clean, that's still above the DVR+'s reception threshold; I've watched signals that weak before. But it doesn't sound like a lot of RF is getting indoors at your location. That's why I think the inference that low-E glass was installed is justified.


----------



## criggs

JHBrandt said:


> If the signal is clean, that's still above the DVR+'s reception threshold; I've watched signals that weak before. But it doesn't sound like a lot of RF is getting indoors at your location. That's why I think the inference that low-E glass was installed is justified.


In which case, on top of my previous multipath problems, I now have to contend with low signal strength as well. Curiously, I do remember one person once telling me way back in '16, I think, that a slightly weaker signal will actually cut down on multipath, because a weaker signal won't bounce around as much. So it may be that I'm no longer in a multipath situation now at all, and that all my current troubles are signal strength having nothing to do with multipath.

If I can't get this straightened out with the Smartenna+ or an LTE filter, I'm thinking perhaps the next step is to ask my landlord whether I can have my windows redone with RF-transparent glass, assuming that's even an option.


----------



## Calaveras

criggs said:


> In which case, on top of my previous multipath problems, I now have to contend with low signal strength as well. Curiously, I do remember one person once telling me way back in '16, I think, that a slightly weaker signal will actually cut down on multipath, because a weaker signal won't bounce around as much. So it may be that I'm no longer in a multipath situation now at all, and that all my current troubles are signal strength having nothing to do with multipath.



Huh? That's just silly.  It's the ratio of the main signal to the multipath interference that counts. Weakening the main signal doesn't affect that.


----------



## steel guitar guy

Regarding the tilting "upwards" of a an antenna.. 
I have a HDB91X thats going up on the roof, within a few weeks.. 
I have read comments from a few installers that a dramatic improvement was realized in fringe areas with an upwards tilt.. Some claimed that the max inclination available gave the best results.. I would have thought the opposite, but will try every position.. Just looking for a few guys that have done this and the success, or lack of success realized.. 

Also, this antenna is ridiculously long, and with only one clamp ,is prone to turning on the mast according to many reviewers...
I would like to avoid this with a maybe 18 inch long piece of light, thin, aluminum angle stock,, 1 end riveted in the mas,t and one riveted into the frame -to hopefully keep it from ever spinning on the mast.. I have doubts the small aluminum brace would have any large effect on signal gathering, and I could tape the brace in position and do some signal strength tests before drilling any rivet holes, but again, would like opinions, or perhaps someone has a better plan for bracing this very long antenna in this high wind area.. thoughts and opinions, as always, highly appreciated! 
bob


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## JHBrandt

I would think the best results would be achieved by aiming at the visible horizon, which is probably a bit upwards in your case. That's where the signals will be diffracting from.

But there always seem to be complicating factors. For example, aiming upwards will cut down on ground reflections, but ground reflections can either help or hurt, so you may want to aim higher to cut them down more, or lower to cut them down less. Feel free to experiment a bit.


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## steel guitar guy

JHBrandt said:


> I would think the best results would be achieved by aiming at the visible horizon, which is probably a bit upwards in your case. That's where the signals will be diffracting from.
> 
> But there always seem to be complicating factors. For example, aiming upwards will cut down on ground reflections, but ground reflections can either help or hurt, so you may want to aim higher to cut them down more, or lower to cut them down less. Feel free to experiment a bit.


 lol.. the "visible horizon" in the direction of the towers I am aiming at 75 miles away,is the forest across the street ..I am surrounded by mountains and get best results by aiming at a "low spot" in the ridge that I know exists , but really can't be seen from my location.. I guess my best bet is setting up a temporary mast as I high as I can get, and then simply trying different angles, and watching the meter on my portable TV..

Any thoughts about the aluminum angle stock brace from the antenna frame to the mast??.. bob


----------



## JHBrandt

criggs said:


> I finally found someone in my building who knows for sure, and he confirmed that it IS low-E glass. Good diagnosis, JHBrandt.
> 
> So, in my case, I presume it's accurate that putting the antenna near one of my windows would NOT be the best place in the room. That being the case, I'm wondering what WOULD be the best place?


Well, if you were Superman, you could use your X-ray vision to find a spot on the outside wall that had as little metal as possible.

But is there a way for us mere mortals to tell? I'm thinking some kind of low-energy "radar" device, sort of like a stud finder but using very weak RF instead of ultrasound


----------



## criggs

JHBrandt said:


> Well, if you were Superman, you could use your X-ray vision to find a spot on the outside wall that had as little metal as possible.
> 
> But is there a way for us mere mortals to tell? I'm thinking some kind of low-energy "radar" device, sort of like a stud finder but using very weak RF instead of ultrasound


Actually, that does give me some guidance. There is wall below the window in the living room, about two and a half feet high, and it stretches for about ten feed in width. To the left of that wall is a foundation pillar that's about 18 inches deep and about 12 inches wide. So I'm thinking that's the surface area from which I should select. With my plain vanilla Mohu at the moment, I get the best reception by either taping it about seven feet up from the ground on the south-facing side of the pillar or by leaning it against the south-facing side of the pillar on the floor. (Which is quite different from the way it was before the "troubles," when the best location was at the bottom of the window, in the center.)


----------



## Calaveras

steel guitar guy said:


> Regarding the tilting "upwards" of a an antenna..
> I have a HDB91X thats going up on the roof, within a few weeks..
> I have read comments from a few installers that a dramatic improvement was realized in fringe areas with an upwards tilt.. Some claimed that the max inclination available gave the best results.. I would have thought the opposite, but will try every position.. Just looking for a few guys that have done this and the success, or lack of success realized..


The vertical pattern 3 dB points are about +/- 20 degrees. Signals do not come in at 20 degrees up in the sky so tilting the antenna up isn't going to increase the signal. Any improvement in SNR by tilting the antenna up is most likely due to reflections being attenuated more in a back or side null. This is just luck of the draw and few people will see any difference tilting the antenna.




steel guitar guy said:


> Also, this antenna is ridiculously long, and with only one clamp ,is prone to turning on the mast according to many reviewers...
> I would like to avoid this with a maybe 18 inch long piece of light, thin, aluminum angle stock,, 1 end riveted in the mas,t and one riveted into the frame -to hopefully keep it from ever spinning on the mast.. I have doubts the small aluminum brace would have any large effect on signal gathering, and I could tape the brace in position and do some signal strength tests before drilling any rivet holes, but again, would like opinions, or perhaps someone has a better plan for bracing this very long antenna in this high wind area.. thoughts and opinions, as always, highly appreciated!
> bob


I modified the clamps on my 91XGs to hold tighter and I put a sheet metal screw through the clamp into the mast to prevent it from turning, or in my case, tilting up. I've not had any problems in years.


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## steel guitar guy

Calaveras said:


> The vertical pattern 3 dB points are about +/- 20 degrees. Signals do not come in at 20 degrees up in the sky so tilting the antenna up isn't going to increase the signal. Any improvement in SNR by tilting the antenna up is most likely due to reflections being attenuated more in a back or side null. This is just luck of the draw and few people will see any difference tilting the antenna.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I modified the clamps on my 91XGs to hold tighter and I put a sheet metal screw through the clamp into the mast to prevent it from turning, or in my case, tilting up. I've not had any problems in years.



Good idea, with the screw through the clamp.. Might go that way... I'll size it all up when its all on the actually mast I am going to use.. I Might also consider a small L bracket with 2 small screws in the mast, and 2 in the frame...

I can only go by user write ups online as far as tilting, and many people have increased their. signal strength that way.. Others not so much, as you said.
I guess I will just have to take the time and try it incrementally, and see if its really worth it in my case... thanks for the reply... bob


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## ncsercs

I just saw these antennas. They come from overseas.

For DVBT2 HDTV ISDBT ATSC High Gain Strong Signal.

Just for grins, what do you think of these? Are they worth trying?


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## ncsercs

Here's another one. This one is from the U.K.

Mercury 120.803 High Gain 32 Element Digital Freeview TV Antenna F Connector


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## tylerSC

Hopefully after the repack some of the US antenna companies will redesign some of their antennas for the new band. If a new designed 91XG would make a major difference perhaps they may consider.


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## JHBrandt

criggs said:


> Actually, that does give me some guidance. There is wall below the window in the living room, about 2.5' high, and it stretches for about 10' in width. To the left of that wall is a foundation pillar that's about 18 inches deep and about 12 inches wide. So I'm thinking that's the surface area from which I should select. With my plain vanilla Mohu at the moment, I get the best reception by either taping it about seven feet up from the ground on the south-facing side of the pillar or by leaning it against the south-facing side of the pillar on the floor. (Which is quite different from the way it was before the "troubles," when the best location was at the bottom of the window, in the center.)


I've been wondering if you got your SMARTenna+ (I just realized there's a '+' at the end) and whether it did any good. I figure there are three possibilities:



Didn't help at all; sent it back, looking for another DVR
Worked great, DVR+ is working better than ever
It helped some, but not as much as I really need/want; still trying to decide what to do next: give up, send it back, and look for another DVR; keep looking for a better antenna location; or just live with it as is

I also figure that last possibility is the most likely, as you probably would have posted by now otherwise?


----------



## criggs

JHBrandt said:


> I figure there are three possibilities:
> 
> 
> Didn't help at all; sent it back, looking for another DVR
> Worked great, DVR+ is working better than ever
> It helped some, but not as much as I really need/want; still trying to decide what to do next: give up, send it back, and look for another DVR; keep looking for a better antenna location; or just live with it as is




Well, I did receive it.

In terms of results, the answer is three: it did help some, but not as much as I needed.

The most significant change was the signal strength. That is completely back to normal, with most stations back to 100% on that parameter. However it did not resolve the multi-path problem; I'd say it was about a 40% improvement over all, with a 100% fix on the signal strength and about a 20% fix on the signal quality problem. Whereas before I could normally get one to one and a half stations well out of eight stations I was able to receive before the "troubles," I can now normally get to two to two and a half stations well out of the eight stations I was previously able to receive.

The apartment house does have a house antenna which used to be operational. The management is supposed to get back to me to let me know how feasible it would be to connect my apartment to that unused and abandoned antenna. One factor that might accelerate that process would be if I were able to organize cord-cutters like myself in the building to form a critical mass, which is one possible option. (As for swapping out the glass in one of the window-panes, they don't want to do it; if I sell the apt., they would have to put the low-E glass back in, which is why they nixed that.)

As before, my Vizio TV reception remains completely unaffected. In fact, with the installation of the Smartenna+, the Vizio's reception is better than ever. I wonder if there's any way to tap into the Vizio feed after the fact, meaning after a particular channel is tuned on the Vizio (I rarely need to record more than one station at the same time). 

Which raises, once again, the question of the DVR+'s tuners. While the glass clearly degraded their performance, it is equally clear that a good tuner would not have been as adversely affected by the glass as an inferior tuner like the one in the DVR+.

Looking at the threads on this forum for the Stream+, CM's apparent successor to the DVR+, it is interesting to note that opinion is sharply divided on whether the new device's tuner is superior to that of the old one. Some maintain that there has been dramatic improvement; others maintain that the new tuner is as weak as the old one. Could it be that Stream+ units are being actively redesigned and re-engineered, even as CM frantically tries to keep up with orders? That might mean that the longer one waits, the greater the likelihood of getting a unit with a good tuner.

All of which is a roundabout way of saying my next step, assuming that the exploration concerning my building's roof antenna proves a dead end, might be to buy a Stream+ on spec and give it the routine 30 days before returning it. Now that we know of a quick easy way to archive its recordings (Avidemux, which I happen to have), that might be a solution after all, if I'm lucky enough to get a unit with a good tuner.

Of course, it's also occurred to me that I might have gotten a DVR+ with a bum tuner. If that's the case, perhaps all I need to do is get a new DVR+.


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## JHBrandt

Unfortunately that's what I figured. Better, but still not good enough.

Comparing tuners is always iffy. Tuner A may be better than tuner B at handling multipath, but tuner B may have a higher dynamic range (i.e., handles a mix of strong and weak signals better). It's rare that you can say that one tuner is definitively better than another.

From the discussion at the Stream+ thread, it sounds to me like the Stream+ tuners may have a high noise figure, and thus be less sensitive than other tuners; but that wouldn't matter if you're using an amplifier (like the one in the SMARTenna+), which may explain why Stream+ owners can't agree on whether they're good tuners or bad ones. Low sensitivity is the easiest tuner problem to overcome. But of course, at this point the Stream+ is a rather mediocre DVR (although now that a Google rep is participating in the Stream+ thread, maybe that will change sooner than I thought). Besides, if you buy one now, it'll be May before you get it (unless you pay extra for one being sold on eBay).

Since you usually only need to record one channel at a time, you might try a one-tuner, under-$40 DVR like HomeWorx, iView, ViewTV, etc. They all have threads in the HDTV Recorders section (well, except for ViewTV - someone needs to start a thread for that box - I would, but I don't own one) and are often sold as "converter boxes" at retail stores like Wal*Mart, Fry's, etc., so you might be able to buy one, try it, and have an easy return if it doesn't work for you. (Even Channel Master sells one, the CM-7004 "ConverterBox,"  with a nicer UI than the others, but they want $79 for theirs - I'm not sure their nice UI is worth the cost.)


----------



## criggs

JHBrandt said:


> "Since you usually only need to record one channel at a time, you might try a one-tuner, under-$40 DVR like HomeWorx, iView, ViewTV, etc. They all have threads in the HDTV Recorders section (well, except for ViewTV - someone needs to start a thread for that box - I would, but I don't own one) and are often sold as "converter boxes" at retail stores like Wal*Mart, Fry's, etc., so you might be able to buy one, try it, and have an easy return if it doesn't work for you.


And these also attach to external hard drives, like a USB hard drive?

Do they also enable examination of a 14-day guide?

In terms of watching live TV, do they also have an HDMI out that connects directly to a TV, so that you can watch the original broadcast mpeg 2 HD stream, rather than getting it as a streamed transcoded signal from the box? 

And can one time-shift on these, meaning to record a show for later viewing?

Do they do chase play, meaning to play back a show on a delayed basis while it's being recorded?

Can one fast forward/rewind through their recordings to avoid commercials?


----------



## JHBrandt

Just sent you a PM - don't want to further derail the antenna thread


----------



## evan237

Selecting the right antenna -- when bigger may not always be the best choice!

I own two antennas from Antennas Direct. The first is is a Clearstream 4 and the 2nd one is a DB8e. Both of these were purchased with the plan of putting them inside my attic.

Now we all know (generally speaking) that height is better and certainly avoiding obstructions (to the extent possible) that may prevent line of sight with any antenna is also best. Beyond that - it seems easy to get caught in the trap that 'bigger is better'! And with this 'bigger is better' mentality - it led me into purchasing a DB8e as a replacement for the Clearstream 4.

However, in my experience using both antennas in two different homes over the last few years - the Clearstream 4 out performed the DB8e no matter what locations I chose in each attic and no matter what directions I chose to aim each antenna panel. And I must say - I tried numerous positions with each respective antenna in the attic! 

The interesting thing here are the specs. The DB8e clearly has a higher gain value. So in theory - it would be easy to conclude that it has to provide the best results -- under the right locations of course. But I have started to reach the conclusion that if you want an attic install antenna (with obstacles up there such as a heating and air system and duct work --the user might be better off considering the Clearstream 4 for maximum results!

My former attic, and the current one I have... are both accessible. But spacing is tight up there given the heating and air system and duct work. I was very much aware of those obstacles when attempting to optimize the best placement for each respective antenna. However, in every scenario that I tried - the Clearstream 4 seems to outperform the DB8e every time.

So my question to other forum members on here - have you tried these two models in an attic setting? And if so - have your results been similar to mine? I am beginning to reach the conclusion that the DB8e antenna *may* only be superior over the Clearstream 4 in an attic setting where there are no obstructions whatsoever with the heating and air system. Also, lots of head room where the DB8e can be easily backed off any rafters or other wooden materials in the attic. 

In conclusion - I have made exhaustive efforts with the placement of both of these antennas in two completely different homes and neighborhoods. But, perhaps as a result of heating and air system and duct work in both attics - these are still hindrances to the DB8e in reaching its full potential. On the other hand - the Clearstream 4 has a much smaller profile. And, perhaps, because of this smaller profile - the interference caused by such common obstacles in attics can be minimized much more so with the Clearstream 4. 

Has anyone else out there ran these two models through a test to realize the full potential of each model? If so - I'd be very interested in hearing the results that you experienced. One more thing - even though the Clearstream 4 is only single directional - it also appears to do a better job of getting stronger signals off the back or side.


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## Calaveras

There's no general conclusion you can draw between antennas in an attic installation. Mulitpath and signal attenuation are highly unpredictable in an attic. If you find something that works for you then go with it. It wouldn't be right to tell others that one antenna is superior to another in an attic based on a few anecdotal experiences.


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## SFischer1

Calaveras said:


> There's no general conclusion you can draw between antennas in an attic installation. Mulitpath and signal attenuation are highly unpredictable in an attic. If you find something that works for you then go with it. It wouldn't be right to tell others that one antenna is superior to another in an attic based on a few anecdotal experiences.


I have a four Bay Bow Tie on a Rotor with an amp in my attic, when Sutro was using low down antennas for DTV initially, in the Winter I could rotate ~ 360 degrees and not get a steady signal for KQED on RF 30. The best was pointing 180 degrees away. The VHF-Hi/Lo tied up with string could get Sacramento KCRA RF 3 and KSBW RF 8 parts of the day.

-------------------------------------

Both are now useless with my new metal roof.

SHF


----------



## evan237

Calaveras said:


> There's no general conclusion you can draw between antennas in an attic installation. Mulitpath and signal attenuation are highly unpredictable in an attic. If you find something that works for you then go with it. It wouldn't be right to tell others that one antenna is superior to another in an attic based on a few anecdotal experiences.


I agree that generalizations cannot be made for everyone placing an antenna in an attic. Obviously, one size does not fit all due to so many variables that come into play. Having said that - I thought it was interesting that I have moved to a new home that is completely different than my old home 15 miles away in an entirely different setting. 

Yet, the one thing both homes have in common is obstructions in the attic with the heating and air systems, and generally tight spaces. In both of these cases, my older Clearstream 4 has performed better than my DB8e no matter the many different placements/directions I have tried with each antenna in both attics. 

My theory has been that the lower profile Clearstream 4 has a better opportunity to gain more line of sight in this type of situation. Yet, I obviously cannot form any definitive conclusions. But given my circumstances, and the fact that I don't want to go outside with an antenna, it appears it may be time for me to retire my newer DB8e and use the Clearstream 4 for all of my TVs.


----------



## holl_ands

Perhaps very narrow Beamwidth DB-8e is MISSING those stations that can be picked up by the very WIDE Beamwidth CS4???? It all depends on WHERE your stations are located....


----------



## tustinfarm

*Just a few more dB on S/N?*

I have some 2Edge (54 miles), low power stations that are intermittent, hovering right near the 15 dB digital "cliff" during the day, and often comfortably over that when night sets in. A 91XG antenna, paired with 30-2476 for hi-VHF and a RCA preamp (on the mast) works great to get me this far....but I start to think about nudging those part time stations a little more above the edge. Looking at a preamp comparison chart that Calaveras generated in 2015 makes me think that switching to a Kitztech preamp might get me a couple more dB, owing to the lower noise figure. And just a couple more dB would definitely extend the duration these weak stations are viewable during the day.

On the other hand, switching to a preamp with a combined input would require using a combiner for the VHF/UHF antennas, as opposed to the individual inputs on the RCA. Does that step alone neutralize any slight gain that might be had by a lower noise figure on a preamp?

Also, does anyone have any experience using a different balun (i.e. higher performance) than what is built into the antennas? I recall reading in this forum about some baluns having lower insertion losses....but even if they did, would moving to a lower loss one actually change the S/N ratio observed after the preamp, since the noise would also be attenuated along with the signal?


----------



## Calaveras

tustinfarm said:


> I have some 2Edge (54 miles), low power stations that are intermittent, hovering right near the 15 dB digital "cliff" during the day, and often comfortably over that when night sets in. A 91XG antenna, paired with 30-2476 for hi-VHF and a RCA preamp (on the mast) works great to get me this far....but I start to think about nudging those part time stations a little more above the edge. Looking at a preamp comparison chart that Calaveras generated in 2015 makes me think that switching to a Kitztech preamp might get me a couple more dB, owing to the lower noise figure. And just a couple more dB would definitely extend the duration these weak stations are viewable during the day.


You got this right. A couple more dB would extend the time the station is in but would not make it 100%. It might take an 80% station and make it a 90% station.




tustinfarm said:


> On the other hand, switching to a preamp with a combined input would require using a combiner for the VHF/UHF antennas, as opposed to the individual inputs on the RCA. Does that step alone neutralize any slight gain that might be had by a lower noise figure on a preamp?


The way to do this is how I'm doing it. Put separate preamps on each antenna, combine with a UHF/VHF combiner that passes DC on both ports and run them off a single power supply. There's no combiner loss that way.




tustinfarm said:


> Also, does anyone have any experience using a different balun (i.e. higher performance) than what is built into the antennas? I recall reading in this forum about some baluns having lower insertion losses....but even if they did, would moving to a lower loss one actually change the S/N ratio observed after the preamp, since the noise would also be attenuated along with the signal?


This is one of the hardest things for people to understand in reception. The noise never goes below -106.2 dBm in a 6 MHz bandwidth. That's how much noise passive resistive devices generate. If you place an attenuator in line, the noise doesn't go below -106.2 dBm no matter what you set it to because the attenuator itself generates noise. The signal can be attenuated below -106.2 dBm but you can't see it.

I'm using homemade coax baluns on my 91XGs. They have about 1 dB less loss than the ferrite PCB baluns supplied with the antenna.

If you do everything exactly right you get as much as 3 dB more signal. And if you add a second 91XG you can get another 2.5 dB.

Pictures attached: 1) Coax Balun without ferrite beads, 2) balun installed on 91XG, 3) loss of coax balun (yellow) and ferrite balun (magenta) Divide by two to get the loss of one balun.


----------



## Neil L

Calaveras said:


> Put separate preamps on each antenna, combine with a UHF/VHF combiner that passes DC on both ports and run them off a single power supply.


How would one go about shopping for such a combiner? I have some Blonder Tongue ZUVSJ combiners, but don't know whether or not they will pass DC. Also have a couple of generic 5-900 MHz 2-way splitter/combiners, but again, don't know whether they pass DC.


----------



## tustinfarm

Calaveras said:


> You got this right. A couple more dB would extend the time the station is in but would not make it 100%. It might take an 80% station and make it a 90% station.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The way to do this is how I'm doing it. Put separate preamps on each antenna, combine with a UHF/VHF combiner that passes DC on both ports and run them off a single power supply. There's no combiner loss that way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is one of the hardest things for people to understand in reception. The noise never goes below -106.2 dBm in a 6 MHz bandwidth. That's how much noise passive resistive devices generate. If you place an attenuator in line, the noise doesn't go below -106.2 dBm no matter what you set it to because the attenuator itself generates noise. The signal can be attenuated below -106.2 dBm but you can't see it.
> 
> I'm using homemade coax baluns on my 91XGs. They have about 1 dB less loss than the ferrite PCB baluns supplied with the antenna.
> 
> If you do everything exactly right you get as much as 3 dB more signal. And if you add a second 91XG you can get another 2.5 dB.
> 
> Pictures attached: 1) Coax Balun without ferrite beads, 2) balun installed on 91XG, 3) loss of coax balun (yellow) and ferrite balun (magenta) Divide by two to get the loss of one balun.


Thank you Calaveras - excellent information/noise explanation - and the two preamp/combiner suggestion is brilliant - I need to explore the power supply voltage for the Kitztech to see if I can get a match for either the RCA or Winegard preamps I already have in hand. Worst case I can run a separate line down to power each preamp separately, then combine.

And the coax balun is _very _intriguing..I have plenty of of RG6 around and modest soldering skills, so will give it a try. I even have a "practice" antenna handy (ViewTV DA-290) to use as a test bed for a homemade balun.


----------



## Calaveras

Neil L said:


> How would one go about shopping for such a combiner? I have some Blonder Tongue ZUVSJ combiners, but don't know whether or not they will pass DC. Also have a couple of generic 5-900 MHz 2-way splitter/combiners, but again, don't know whether they pass DC.



I'm using a Tinleee VHF/UHF combiner. They can build it to pass DC on both ports. They're not inexpensive though. I'm pretty sure that Jan Jenca can supply such a combiner.

http://www.antenne-komponenty.eu/english/main/product/zlucovace.html

You don't want t use a 2 way splitter to do this.


----------



## Calaveras

tustinfarm said:


> Thank you Calaveras - excellent information/noise explanation - and the two preamp/combiner suggestion is brilliant - I need to explore the power supply voltage for the Kitztech to see if I can get a match for either the RCA or Winegard preamps I already have in hand. Worst case I can run a separate line down to power each preamp separately, then combine.
> 
> And the coax balun is _very _intriguing..I have plenty of of RG6 around and modest soldering skills, so will give it a try. I even have a "practice" antenna handy (ViewTV DA-290) to use as a test bed for a homemade balun.



To make the balun, ideally the loop should be 150 ohm coax, but since that doesn't exist, I used 93 ohm coax, Belden 9269. The coax leaving the balun is just 75 ohm. I used Belden 9248. Both of those coaxes will take solder on the shield. Most RG-6 type cable cannot be soldered. The loop is 8.5" of 9269.

I think you would need to use two KT-200 preamps as their voltage is incompatible with the RCA. The KT-200 is the best of the Kitztech preamps.


----------



## lifespeed

Calaveras said:


> I'm using a Tinleee VHF/UHF combiner. They can build it to pass DC on both ports. They're not inexpensive though. I'm pretty sure that Jan Jenca can supply such a combiner.
> 
> http://www.antenne-komponenty.eu/english/main/product/zlucovace.html
> 
> You don't want t use a 2 way splitter to do this.


Some impressive UHF hardware good link. That said, for anybody willing to entertain network tuners I still maintain the one-tuner-per-antenna approach "combining" at Ethernet is one of the highest-performing solutions, particularly for two or more antennae aimed in different directions.


----------



## lifespeed

evan237 said:


> But given my circumstances, and the fact that I don't want to go outside with an antenna, it appears it may be time for me to retire my newer DB8e and use the Clearstream 4 for all of my TVs.


When you impose constraints like that you just have to accept what you get, which may not be that great.


----------



## Finch85

A few years ago I cut the cord and received a lot of help from some of the members here. I was able to receive channel 13 easily with my 91XG but lately something has changed and I can not make out what is even playing. I have the 91XG installed on my garage roof at probably 15-20 feet high. I'm using the RCA mast mounted preamp and the signal is split to two TVs (splitter with DC block to bedroom tv). It is pointed at 278 deg. I used a compass to point the antenna to this bearing. I know tv fool says I should be at 290 deg but 278 deg gives me better reception. The living room TV is connected to my TIVO Roamio and the upstairs just has the coax coming from the DC blocked side of the splitter. 

4 years ago, Calaveras recommended the following for me (see quote) to reliably receive channel 13. That antenna is discontinued - what are my options now? I really only care about receiving channel 13. If PBS comes in then that is a bonus. 



> 'm sticking with my compromise advice; two input preamp, 91XG, Y-10713 pointed at ABC and you'll likely be able to receive PBS on RF 3 because it's the strongest station. My optimum advice is the Y526 for PBS and the Y-10713 summed together and connected to the preamp VHF input and the 91XG. That's what it takes at your location to have the best chance of reliable reception.


Here is my tvfool info.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=9038953ecb3cd5


----------



## SFischer1

Finch85 said:


> A few years ago I cut the cord and received a lot of help from some of the members here. I was able to receive channel 13 easily with my 91XG but lately something has changed and I can not make out what is even playing. I have the 91XG installed on my garage roof at probably 15-20 feet high. I'm using the RCA mast mounted preamp and the signal is split to two TVs (splitter with DC block to bedroom tv). It is pointed at 278 deg. I used a compass to point the antenna to this bearing. I know tv fool says I should be at 290 deg but 278 deg gives me better reception. The living room TV is connected to my TIVO Roamio and the upstairs just has the coax coming from the DC blocked side of the splitter.
> 
> 4 years ago, Calaveras recommended the following for me (see quote) to reliably receive channel 13. That antenna is discontinued - what are my options now? I really only care about receiving channel 13. If PBS comes in then that is a bonus.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is my tvfool info.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=9038953ecb3cd5



Could it be that "13" has gone off the air or is channel sharing with another station?

I cannot find "13" as a RF or Virtual Channel on your TVFool report.

Using your ZIP code:\ from that report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90 

I have trouble finding a station at 290 deg or 278 deg.

What are the call letters for "13" and your PSB station so we can check to see if they have taken the money, ($100M) is a great payout.

SHF


----------



## Finch85

SFischer1 said:


> Could it be that "13" has gone off the air or is channel sharing with another station?
> 
> I cannot find "13" as a RF or Virtual Channel on your TVFool report.
> 
> Using your ZIP code:\ from that report:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90
> 
> I have trouble finding a station at 290 deg or 278 deg.
> 
> What are the call letters for "13" and your PSB station so we can check to see if they have taken the money, ($100M) is a great payout.
> 
> SHF


Well, I'm not sure why 13 or 15 are not on the report. They were a few years back. Channel 13 is WSET and 15 is WBRA. I just checked and 13 is coming in pretty good, maybe a little "blipping" here and there every few minutes but definitely watchable with no annoyance. Channel 15 (PBS) is very hard to watch and almost impossible to make out.


----------



## Finch85

I know this is not much info but just pulled from the fcc.gov DTV site.


----------



## rabbit73

TVFool is using a database with errors for its reports. A report from rabbitears.info is a little more accurate:










It is the real channel number that determines what antenna is needed.

VHF-Low, real channels 2-6
VHF-High, real channels 7-13
UHF, real channels 14-51

The virtual channel number (like 5.1) is a holdover from the analog TV days to maintain the identity of the station, and is what the TV displays.


WSET doesn't come in very well because it is a VHF-High channel; the 91XG is primarily for UHF.


----------



## SFischer1

Finch85 said:


> Well, I'm not sure why 13 or 15 are not on the report. They were a few years back. Channel 13 is WSET and 15 is WBRA. I just checked and 13 is coming in pretty good, maybe a little "blipping" here and there every few minutes but definitely watchable with no annoyance. Channel 15 (PBS) is very hard to watch and almost impossible to make out.


Perhaps bad news if you have not heard.

WSET Repack channel is RF 7 which may or may not be a problem. They got $63,797,580 for moving to RF 7. 
Phase: 9 Completion Deadline: 5/1/2020 

----------------------------

WBRA is current using an antenna that is not as good as it should be, so they are requesting an antenna change to a better one.

No Change in RF channel. I could not find any notice for repack, but being on RF 3 unlike they would have gotten any money in the auction.

SHF


----------



## rabbit73

WSET will be moving to real channel 7, which is also a VHF-High channel.

WBRA is on VHF-Low channel 3, which requires a BIG antenna with WIDE elements.


----------



## SFischer1

rabbit73 said:


> WSET, not KSET, will be moving to real channel 7, which is also a VHF-High channel.
> https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=wset



Sorry, my local stations are all west of the Mississippi and any stations west of me are all wet. Sorry, typo will be fixed.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

> WSET Repack channel is RF 7 which may or may not be a problem. They got $63,797,580 for moving to RF 7.


There was no incentive payments made to stations that got shuffled within their previous band. WSET will get repack expense reimbursements, nothing else. 

The number you quoted was the opening bid in the reverse auction for them to move to low-VHF, something they did not bid to do.


----------



## Pete-N2

ProjectSHO89 said:


> There was no incentive payments made to stations that got shuffled within their previous band. WSET will get repack expense reimbursements, nothing else.
> 
> The number you quoted was the opening bid in the reverse auction for them to move to low-VHF, something they did not bid to do.


WSET (13/13) is coming in fine in Lynchburg 20 mi from the transmitter. 

The TV Fool database has had errors in it for the past several months. (WWCW is missing also.) I think it started when they added repack information.

If the past WVIR C'ville would be received by my DVR every few days in the AM. (the program grid was populated) That stopped 4-5 month ago. Haven't received any RIC stations either.

Used to receive WFFP with an SNR of 16-19 dB, now its gone most of the time.


----------



## Pete-N2

SFischer1 said:


> WBRA is current using an antenna that is not as good as it should be, so they are requesting an antenna change to a better one.
> 
> SHF


Do you have a link to more information?

I had a hard time receiving them in 2011-2013 time frame. Constant decode errors during prime time. The last few years they have been quite reliable -- except during thunderstorms of course.


----------



## Finch85

rabbit73 said:


> TVFool is using a database with errors for its reports. A report from rabbitears.info is a little more accurate:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is the real channel number that determines what antenna is needed.
> 
> VHF-Low, real channels 2-6
> VHF-High, real channels 7-13
> UHF, real channels 14-51
> 
> The virtual channel number (like 5.1) is a holdover from the analog TV days to maintain the identity of the station, and is what the TV displays.
> 
> 
> WSET doesn't come in very well because it is a VHF-High channel; the 91XG is primarily for UHF.


Thanks everyone for the info. I hate to admit but a lot of this is greek to me. What would be my best option to begin receiving WSET (ABC) again?


----------



## Neil L

Finch85 said:


> What would be my best option to begin receiving WSET (ABC) again?


If you are almost getting a signal from the 91XG (which has negative gain on channels 7 & 3), then just about anything with a little positive gain at those channels should work wonders.


----------



## Neil L

Oh! Just had another thought. The 91XG has slightly more gain from the rear than the front on Hi-VHF. Why not try pointing your antenna in the opposite direction from the transmitter, and see if it's any better. Don't get your hopes up...but worth a try IMHO.


----------



## SFischer1

Pete-N2 said:


> Do you have a link to more information?
> 
> I had a hard time receiving them in 2011-2013 time frame. Constant decode errors during prime time. The last few years they have been quite reliable -- except during thunderstorms of course.



https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/dataentry/public/tv/draftCopy.html?displayType=html&appKey=25076ff361d971510161e855bb9c2057&id=25076ff361d971510161e855bb9c2057&goBack=N

https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/dataentry/api/download/attachment/25076f9161d979950161e8d034c22d07

----------------------------------------------

I try daily to enter yesterday and today for the time period, select "Include Amendments" and chose "California" for my state and then click on "Search".

That gives me the latest filings and I manually chose Cities as Sutro and other transmitters are licensed in various cities.

No new hits for today.

Sadly most of the time what I wish to read is in *Attachments Which Are Rarely included*. 

For "WBRA" I just entered that in the "CallSign:" field and clicked "Search".

"LMS « FCC"

https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/dataentry/public/tv/publicAppSearch.html

SHF


----------



## rabbit73

Finch85 said:


> Thanks everyone for the info. I hate to admit but a lot of this is greek to me. What would be my best option to begin receiving WSET (ABC) again?


The best option would be an antenna for the VHF-High channels (real channels 7-13) like one of these:
http://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2475/fringe-directional-antenna-vhf/dp/48Y8141
or this one with a little more gain:
http://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2476/fringe-directional-antenna-vhf/dp/71Y5462

Aim the antenna at 52 degrees true/61 degrees magnetic.

Connect it to the VHF input of your RCA TVPRAMP1R preamp, connect the 91XG to the UHF input of the preamp, and set the combined/separate switch to separate.

Sometimes that switch doesn't make good contact with the VHF antenna in the separate position. The fix is to combine the two antenna with a UVSJ, UHF-VHF Combiner, and connect its output to the combined input of the preamp.


----------



## Finch85

rabbit73 said:


> The best option would be an antenna for the VHF-High channels (real channels 7-13) like one of these:
> http://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2475/fringe-directional-antenna-vhf/dp/48Y8141
> or this one with a little more gain:
> http://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2476/fringe-directional-antenna-vhf/dp/71Y5462
> 
> Aim the antenna at 52 degrees true/61 degrees magnetic.
> 
> Connect it to the VHF input of your RCA TVPRAMP1R preamp, connect the 91XG to the UHF input of the preamp, and set the combined/separate switch to separate.
> 
> Sometimes that switch doesn't make good contact with the VHF antenna in the separate position. The fix is to combine the two antenna with a UVSJ, UHF-VHF Combiner, and connect its output to the combined input of the preamp.


Thank you for all of the info! So with this channel repack for wset, does that mean ill eventually lose reception since they are moving to a different real channel? Just a little confused by this. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Finch85

Also, is this the combiner you were talking about? When I searched for it, this came up along with a couple combiners that look like a traditional 2 way splitter. 

VHF / UHF Antenna Combiner https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008PBTPN4/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_0lW1AbYPX84Y8


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## rabbit73

Finch85 said:


> Thank you for all of the info! So with this channel repack for wset, does that mean ill eventually lose reception since they are moving to a different real channel? Just a little confused by this.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Not to worry. You will lose WSET when it move from 13 to 7, but you can get it back by doing a tuner channel rescan or adding a channel after scan if your tuner can do that.


----------



## rabbit73

Finch85 said:


> Also, is this the combiner you were talking about? When I searched for it, this came up along with a couple combiners that look like a traditional 2 way splitter.
> 
> VHF / UHF Antenna Combiner https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008PBTPN4/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_0lW1AbYPX84Y8
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


That is the correct device to combine a UHF antenna with a VHF antenna before the preamp input. However, you will not need it unless your RCA TVPRAMP1R preamp acts up, because it has a UHF input and a VHF input that is designed to combine a UHF antenna and a VHF antenna.

Do not use an ordinary 2-way splitter in reverse to combine a UHF antenna and a VHF antenna.


----------



## Pete-N2

rabbit73 said:


> Not to worry. You will lose WSET when it move from 13 to 7, but you can get it back by doing a tuner channel rescan or adding a channel after scan if your tuner can do that.


The antennas recommended are good for channels 7 to 13.

Off topic: Sometime in the next 3 months WFFP (24/24) will go off the air and start channel sharing with WDBJ7 on channel 18. That will also require a rescan.


----------



## Finch85

rabbit73 said:


> The best option would be an antenna for the VHF-High channels (real channels 7-13) like one of these:
> http://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2475/fringe-directional-antenna-vhf/dp/48Y8141
> or this one with a little more gain:
> http://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2476/fringe-directional-antenna-vhf/dp/71Y5462
> 
> Aim the antenna at 52 degrees true/61 degrees magnetic.
> 
> Connect it to the VHF input of your RCA TVPRAMP1R preamp, connect the 91XG to the UHF input of the preamp, and set the combined/separate switch to separate.
> 
> Sometimes that switch doesn't make good contact with the VHF antenna in the separate position. The fix is to combine the two antenna with a UVSJ, UHF-VHF Combiner, and connect its output to the combined input of the preamp.


So I've been a little busy lately with other projects but will be ordering the antenna today (the one in the first link). Quick question, how much distance do I need to have between this and the 91XG? I'd prefer not having to lengthen my mast. I can probably get it spaced at about 3 feet. I need to go up there and double check the height.


----------



## rabbit73

Finch85 said:


> So I've been a little busy lately with other projects but will be ordering the antenna today (the one in the first link). Quick question, how much distance do I need to have between this and the 91XG? I'd prefer not having to lengthen my mast. I can probably get it spaced at about 3 feet. I need to go up there and double check the height.


I think 3 feet would be OK, with the 91XG on top, especially since the two antennas will be aimed in different directions; try the easy way first.


----------



## Pete-N2

As long as we are taking about Central Virginia, how about a recommendations of a small-medium size antenna for the attic. UHF only ( U/V ok) and very directional.

Background --- for the last 20+ years I have been using a roof mounted all band fringe antenna aimed for WDBJ that has been receiving all the local stations. The last couple of years I have been getting too many decode errors on WSLS in the summer, after the leaves come out. I have plenty of signal (Sony diagnostics), I am on the side of a small hill, so I am pretty sure the issue is multipath.

I would like to put an antenna in the attic and optimize it for WSLS. Separate coax going to a dedicated DVR. 

I am experimenting with a cheap amplified omni in the attic. It receives all the stations but when it’s windy all stations have a significant number of decode errors. 

Thanks,

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=90382eef796d29

The WDBJ and WSLS antennas are within 2 miles of each other.
WSET and WWCW located on a different mountain are missing from the TVFOOL report. They are 20 miles away and off to one side by a few degrees.


----------



## holl_ands

Finch85 said:


> So I've been a little busy lately with other projects but will be ordering the antenna today (the one in the first link). Quick question, how much distance do I need to have between this and the 91XG? I'd prefer not having to lengthen my mast. I can probably get it spaced at about 3 feet. I need to go up there and double check the height.


I modeled Stacked Dissimilar Antennas. Gain for either Antenna is NOT affected until VERY close together (typ. less than a foot)....but F/B and F/R Ratios are degraded when closer than about 4-ft...and preferably 6-8 feet:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/stacked


----------



## rabbit73

Pete-N2 said:


> As long as we are taking about Central Virginia, how about a recommendations of a small-medium size antenna for the attic. UHF only ( U/V ok) and very directional.


Hello, Pete.



> Background --- for the last 20+ years I have been using a roof mounted all band fringe antenna aimed for WDBJ that has been receiving all the local stations. The last couple of years I have been getting too many decode errors on WSLS in the summer, after the leaves come out. I have plenty of signal (Sony diagnostics), I am on the side of a small hill, so I am pretty sure the issue is multipath.


What antenna are you using on the roof?

Your description indicates that the trees are blocking the signals. I see a lot of trees in your area in my attachment photo.

Choosing a mounting site
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/siting.html
scroll down to Trees and UHF
extract from that page:












> I would like to put an antenna in the attic and optimize it for WSLS. Separate coax going to a dedicated DVR.


Putting an antenna in the attic for WSLS would be a double handicap for the signal; trees and attic attenuation. If you want an inexpensive experiment, try a Solid Signal HDB91X, or HDB8X with both panels aimed in the same direction.


> I am experimenting with a cheap amplified omni in the attic. It receives all the stations but when it’s windy all stations have a significant number of decode errors.


An Omni receives poorly in all directions. An increase in uncorrected errors when it is windy is a symptom of trees in the signal path. 



> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=90382eef796d29
> 
> The WDBJ and WSLS antennas are within 2 miles of each other.


A small difference in the transmitter location can make a big difference in the signal path.


> WSET and WWCW located on a different mountain are missing from the TVFOOL report. They are 20 miles away and off to one side by a few degrees.


TVFool is using a defective database for its reports. Those two channels show up on a report from rabbitears.info:










WWCW is strong enough to possibly cause preamp and tuner overload.


----------



## Pete-N2

rabbit73 said:


> What antenna are you using on the roof?


A Archer/Radio Shack "Fringe Antenna" (not "Deep Fringe") and an 18 dB preamp.


----------



## jspENC

Pete-N2 said:


> A Archer/Radio Shack "Fringe Antenna" (not "Deep Fringe") and an 18 dB preamp.


If you haven't replaced the downlead cable from the amp to the ground in the last 10 yrs, then I would start there. Also the cable looks white in the photo. This is not good for exterior applications since the sun will make it deteriorate faster than regular black coax. Be sure you are using RG-6. Also get a new "balun". They can fail after several years.


----------



## ncsercs

Just saw this mounting option. Why would you mount this vertically? Any specific reason?


----------



## rabbit73

ncsercs said:


> Just saw this mounting option.


Where did you see that?


> Why would you mount this vertically? Any specific reason?


You would mount it that way if the transmitted signal had vertical polarization.
http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/reception_guide

Horizontal polarization is used for TV broadcast in the US because noise interference is stronger with vertical polarization.

Some TV transmitting antennas use a mixture of horizontal and vertical, which produces elliptical polarization for mobile receiving devices.

In my area, WTKR is presently on RF channel 40 with 950 kW ERP horizontal polarization. When it moves to RF channel 16 because of UHF channel Repack, it will have elliptical polarization of 610 kW ERP horizontal and 152.5 kW ERP vertical.
https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?request=items&facid=47401


----------



## tylerSC

*Mohu Sail*

The new Mohu Sail outdoor antenna sold exclusively at Best Buy has a built in preamplifier, unlike the Mohu Sky which has the external inline amp. So this may be a better choice in terms of the amplifier, if you are considering a small, compact antenna such as the Mohu. The original Sky had a built in amp, but they changed it to the external amp. So only the Sail has the built in amp, and it seems to get favorable reviews.


----------



## tylerSC

rabbit73 said:


> Where did you see that?
> 
> You would mount it that way if the transmitted signal had vertical polarization.
> http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/reception_guide
> 
> Horizontal polarization is used for TV broadcast in the US because noise interference is stronger with vertical polarization.
> 
> Some TV transmitting antennas use a mixture of horizontal and vertical, which produces elliptical polarization for mobile receiving devices.
> 
> In my area, WTKR is presently on RF channel 40 with 950 kW ERP horizontal polarization. When it moves to RF channel 16 because of UHF channel Repack, it will have elliptical polarization of 610 kW ERP horizontal and 152.5 kW ERP vertical.
> https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?request=items&facid=47401


I notice with the repack several stations in my region are switching from horizontal to elliptical or circular polarization. Perhaps this may help with reception in the fringes, but not really sure for the reason.


----------



## holl_ands

Since a Transmit Antenna with Elliptical Polarization will have MORE Power in Horizontal than Vertical Polarization, I would expect that a Vertically Polarized Antenna would nearly always be worse than Horizontally Polarized.

FYI: Rabbit-Ears arranged into 45-deg Angle "VEE" has same Receive Gain for Horizontally and Vertically Polarized Signals.

Here are a few Antennas I modeled [incl. Rabbit-Ears] that have Right Hand Circularly Polarized Gain (equal H. and V. Gain), which would yield up to 3 dB higher Gain for a Circularly Polarized Transmitter (V Power = H Power) since they can Combine the H and V signals [which may or may NOT be in phase, depending on Multipath]. BTW: Transmitted V Power is in ADDITION to H Power Authorization, so NO penality to H reception:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/circularpolarized

To see whether YOUR Stations are either Circular (Query "C") or Elliptical (Query "E") Polarization:
https://rabbitears.info/tvq.php?&request=list&antpol=C
https://rabbitears.info/tvq.php?&request=list&antpol=E


----------



## JHBrandt

tylerSC said:


> The new Mohu Sail outdoor antenna sold exclusively at Best Buy has a built in preamplifier, unlike the Mohu Sky which has the external inline amp. (The original Sky had a built in amp, but they changed it to the external amp.) So only the Sail has the built in amp, and it seems to get favorable reviews.


Everyone is different, but personally, I try to *avoid* built-in amps. Even if the amp is a good one, it may not fit my situation, and if the amp fails, I don't want to have to replace my whole antenna!


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> In my area, WTKR is presently on RF channel 40 with 950 kW ERP horizontal polarization. When it moves to RF channel 16 because of UHF channel Repack, it will have elliptical polarization of 610 kW ERP horizontal and 152.5 kW ERP vertical.



I'm not picking on you rabbit73 but I thought this might be a convenient place to explain what elliptical polarization is since I think the term is being misused.

Elliptical polarization does not have a fixed horizontal or vertical component. The polarization is continuously changing and rotates through 360 degrees every RF cycle. Here's a short YouTube video to visualize linear, circular and elliptical polarization:






It's not clear to me if broadcast TV stations are actually using elliptical polarization or bi-linear polarization. Anyone have a clear reference to this? The way I see it spec'd it sounds like bi-linear. In your example above it's 610KW in the horizontal plane and 152.5KW in the vertical plane. The way elliptical polarization is normally spec'd is with an ellipticity factor. In your example above the difference between the maximum plane power and minimum plane power is 6 dB so the ellipticity factor would be 6 dB if it's actually elliptical polarization.

Elliptical (or more more often circular) polarization is normally used in situations where the polarization is changing for some reason. Low Earth Orbiting satellites are an example of this. The linear polarization angle relative to a ground station changes as the satellite passes through the sky. This angle becomes irrelevant with circular polarization. GPS satellites use circular polarization and handheld GPS receivers have Quadrifilar helix antennas which are omni directional circular polarized antennas. 

I don't see any advantage for broadcast TV stations to use elliptical polarization since the receive antennas are either horizontal polarization (home antennas) or vertical polarization (mobile antennas). Bi-linear polarization would make the most sense.


----------



## rabbit73

Calaveras said:


> It's not clear to me if broadcast TV stations are actually using elliptical polarization or bi-linear polarization. Anyone have a clear reference to this?


It's not clear to me either. Here is an article by Doug Lung:
Circular Elliptical Polarization for TV
TVTechnology
Doug Lung Oct 1, 2008
https://www.tvtechnology.com/expertise/circular-elliptical-polarization-for-tv
　
This is probably the best reference:

Antenna Polarization
By Joseph H. Reisert, W1JR
Astron Wireless Technologies,LLC 22560 Glenn Drive, Suite 114, Sterling, Virginia 20164-4440
http://www.astronwireless.com/topic-archives-antennas-polarization.asp


> A circular polarized wave radiates energy in both the horizontal and vertical planes and all planes in between. The difference, if any, between the maximum and the minimum peaks as the antenna is rotated through all angles, is called the axial ratio or ellipticity and is usually specified in decibels (dB). If the axial ratio is near 0 dB, the antenna is said to be circular polarized. *If the axial ratio is greater than 1-2 dB, the polarization is often referred to as elliptical.*


　
This explains the advantage:

Dielectric Welcomes FCC Release of ATSC 3.0 NPRM
http://www.dielectric.com/news/dielectric-welcomes-fcc-release-atsc-3-0-nprm/


> Announcement gives broadcasters stronger impetus to make equipment decisions in preparation for Spectrum Repack and beyond, including the benefits of vertical polarization for mobile TV reception
> Decisions on equipment made for the repack can directly impact the station’s ability to take advantage of the features of the new OFDM-based, end-to-end IP connectivity that is native to the ATSC 3.0 standard. Perhaps the feature of most benefit to broadcasters is the ability to choose modulation and coding (MODCOD) combinations, which are tailored for robust reception by portable and mobile devices.
> 
> “Many broadcasters understand the benefits that vertical polarization provides and we are being asked to provide quotations for repack antennas with a vertical component for ATSC 1.0 use even if stations currently only have horizontally polarized antennas,” said Jay Martin vice president of sales, Dielectric. “The FCC can only reimburse repacked stations on a like-for-like basis, but the cost difference to add the vertical component to the antenna is relatively minor, considering that the installation costs will be reimbursable.”
> 
> The specific amount of vertical polarization is not critical, according to John Schadler, Dielectric vice president of engineering. He notes that extensive field testing shows that *as little as 20 percent of a vertical component can produce significant gains in fade margin.*
> 
> This is good news for broadcasters as the vertical component does require transmitter power – a very important consideration in equipment and operating costs.


----------



## JHBrandt

Circular and elliptical polarization can indeed be thought of as a combination of horizontal and vertical polarization, but with the proviso that the horizontal and vertical components are _90 degrees out of phase._ If the components were in phase, they would merely combine into a linear polarization at some angle between horizontal and vertical. But when they are 90 degrees out of phase, the effect is as Calaveras describes: the plane of polarization appears to rotate through 360 degrees each cycle.

Circular polarization has long been used in FM radio; the advantage is that an antenna needn't be aligned with the incoming wave: it can be oriented at any angle and still pick up the signal. So mobile antennas are one reason broadcasters use it.

Another advantage is that the direction of rotation is reversed when the signal is reflected. That makes it possible for a suitably-designed antenna to reject multipath reflections. Holl-Ands has analyzed some circularly polarized VHF and UHF antenna designs for multipath rejection.


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> Here is an article by Doug Lung:
> Circular Elliptical Polarization for TV
> TVTechnology
> Doug Lung Oct 1, 2008
> https://www.tvtechnology.com/expertise/circular-elliptical-polarization-for-tv



Thanks! After reading these articles it's even less clear. 1KW is 1KW no matter what polarization antenna you're feeding. The comments about halving the power if you're feeding a CP antenna makes no sense. The power didn't double just because you're feeding a set of cross dipoles. Does the power double if you're feeding a helix? Of course not. 

In the cross dipole CP example, the sum of the power at any rotation angle equals the input power. When the rotation angle is horizontal, the horizontal power is 100% and vertical power is 0%. If vertical is 100% then horizontal is 0%. At any multiple of 45 degrees the two are 50%. 

The need to divide up the power between the horizontal and vertical elements so as not to exceed maximum ERP would be applicable to bi-linear polarization, not elliptical polarization.


----------



## wylie70

*Powering Cm-7777 amp and CM-Distribution preamp*

First post and uncertain what I am doing. I am uncertain how to power a CM-7777 mast mounted amp and a CM-3414 distribution amp installed in series. 
I am currently using the CM-3414 distribution amp and I am looking to add a CM-7777 amp to my mast. Both seem to use the same type power supply. The CM-3414 currently is powered thru coax into a port on the distribution amp. Will the CM -3414 pass thru dc power to the CM-7777 amp at the antenna. 
The CM-7777 comes with a power supply and a power injector. Is this power injector necessary or is the power to the CM-3414 sufficient?
The following is just guessing on my part. I do not have line of sight to the transmission towers. My signal appears to be reflected from the building opposite my apartment. I have an RCA705Z antenna with a vhf add-on above it. Through trial and error, I seem have achieved a fairly stable signal. My channel strength on the meter built into my tv varies from 45 to 70 depending on the channel and the weather. My sweet spot that I focus at on the building opposite me can change during the week, so I check it daily and make minor adjustment when necessary to maintain a strength 50 or more on the major channels, so I can record shows my Tablo DVR. Rarely do I miss a recording because of a weak signal. I would like to strengthen my signal. 
I started with a CM Smartenna at the start of November 2017. I just moved to the more directional RCA last month when I realized I was getting a reflected signal. This has greatly improved and stabilized my signal and reduced pixilation. I would just like to gain those few extra percentage points in signal strength that would improve the reliability of a few of the stations. My only Vhf station is ABC. With the addition of the Direct TV VHF retrofit kit, that station is one of my most stable stations. Channels 41(NBC), 19 (H&I) and 14 (PBS) have a signal strength ranging from 45 to 60, depending on the day and the weather. Everything else usually has a signal strength of 60 - 70.
My wife is happy with the cutting of the cord because I find other ways of watching the few programs that do not get recorded.


Is adding an amp on the mast in addition to distribution preamp do able? How do I power the mast mounted amp in addition to my current distribution preamp on the same 75 ohm coax? I need the separate feeds to the TV and the Tablo DVR so that I have quick access to the builtin signal meter in my TV. Because I am surrounded on all sides by wire mesh and 4 story stucco apartments, my options seem limited. I feel fortunate to be getting the signal that I get.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

Stacking a 7777 amp in front of a distribution amp is probably a BAD idea. Way too much gain, you'll likely overload something somewhere in the system. A 7777, with 30 dB of gain, should be sufficient to drive the signal through several hundred feet of coax plus splitting to multiple sets. For example, with a four-way splitter, you'd have ample margin for at least 250' of RG6.

In any event, the 3414 does not pass power though it, so you'd need to install the preamp's inserter upstream of the 3414.


----------



## Intheswamp

@wylie70 , I'm no expert just a guy who's tinkered with a few things while trying to pick a needle out of a haystack. The needle is a 2-edge station about 50 miles from me. For now, things are working. We said "Goodbye" to DISH back in January or February and have been very happy with things (we're using a Tivo Roamio OTA). Anyhow,... 

As ProjectSHO89 said, with what you are working with I would remove the 3414 replacing it with the 7777's power-inserter. Too much power can result in overload which with digital will make you think you're getting bad reception due to weak signals. Even by itself the 7777 may be too strong, it *is* a heavyweight lifter.  I take it that this is the current production 7777HD and not the older version with separate outputs for VHF and UHF?

Remove the 3414 from the lead-in coax, replacing it with the 7777's power inserter. Connect a short coax cable (really as short as possible, but no biggies if a 3' cable is what you have) to the output port of the inserter. Next connect a 2-way splitter to that short cable. Then connect the coax cables that you already have coming from your television and Tablo to the outputs of the splitter. 

For maximum power do not use a splitter with more ports/connectors than needed being as each port will reduce the power, even unused connections...2-way=50%, 3-way=33%, 4-way=25%. The reduction in power *can* be helpful in cases of too strong of a signal, so you might keep that in mind. Sometimes intentionally inserting a splitter to reduce power can "fix" things by solving an tuner overload situation. Also, coax cable itself presents a loss to the signal so a cable that is too long and simply coiled up somewhere is taking was reception signal. Again, that might be good...or bad.

At the antenna use a short coax cable to connect the 7777 to the antenna (probably the cable that came with the pre-amp), then attach the lead-in coax to the output port of the pre-amp.

I think you will be dealing with multi-path reception which can be problematic...the same signal hitting the antenna at slightly different times. In the "old days" before digital television this showed up as "ghosts" or double images. But, in digital, we just get pixelation or dropped signal due to the all-or-nothing aspect of digital. Unfortunately with digital the symptoms of several reception problems manifest themselves the same way so diagnosing the problems can be more difficult (for folks like me  ).

How far away from the actual transmitting towers are you? Have you tried your antenna without any amplification?

Seasonal changes in vegetation can affect reception...trees have moisture in their leaves. Trucks passing by, large garage doors being opened or closed, etc., can cause changes in reception of multi-path signals. From my experience, bowtie antennas appear to be better at dealing with multi-path issues better than yagi-type antennas.

Just wanted to throw some food-for-thought in your direction. 

Best wishes and congratulations on cuttin'the cord!!!! 
Ed


----------



## lifespeed

wylie70 said:


> First post and uncertain what I am doing. I am uncertain how to power a CM-7777 mast mounted amp and a CM-3414 distribution amp installed in series.


Use only a mast-mounted preamp, lose the distribution amp. Upgrade your antenna to a larger, highly directional type so you are only receiving the reflected (?) signal you want. Also, some context about your residence would help. Are you in a high-rise apartment, single family home, access to your own roof, etc.


----------



## wylie70

Thank you for the responses. The CM-3414 was recommended on an other forum as a result of the antenna reports, to keep from over powering


----------



## wylie70

Sorry - response got posted in error. Thank you for the responses. I’ll take the time to think them over. And then play with it. The CM-3414 was suggested on another forum to keep from over powering signal. I feel I have about optimized my un-amplified signal for my location and limitations. Small antenna size and appearance are 2 of my most important needs. My signal is fairly stable. In my last storm (60 mile winds, quarter sized hail, tornado alert and heavy rain) all my shows were recordable but one was unwatchable because of pixcilization. 

I am considering an other amplifier for some of those blue bird clear days when the signal for some stations that may becomes marginal. I can adjust the antenna but a couple of tines I have lost a channel when I hadn’t checked the signal, that morning. 


Thanks again.


One question, what do the numbers represent on my Tv’s builtin meter. I.e. 43, 55, 70. They indicate strength but what is the unit of measure? I understand the digital cliff occurs around 50.


----------



## lifespeed

wylie70 said:


> I feel I have about optimized my un-amplified signal for my location and limitations. Small antenna size and appearance are 2 of my most important needs.


No, with that tiny antenna you have not optimized your signal. Instead you have optimized "small" and "appearance", which you state are your priorities. So you have accomplished your goal, and will have to accept compromises on the lower priority of signal quality. A preamp is not really the way to address signal quality when your antenna is that small, although you can of course experiment. Good luck.


----------



## jkeldo

wylie70 said:


> Sorry - response got posted in error. Thank you for the responses. I’ll take the time to think them over. And then play with it. The CM-3414 was suggested on another forum to keep from over powering signal. I feel I have about optimized my un-amplified signal for my location and limitations. Small antenna size and appearance are 2 of my most important needs. My signal is fairly stable. In my last storm (60 mile winds, quarter sized hail, tornado alert and heavy rain) all my shows were recordable but one was unwatchable because of pixcilization.
> 
> I am considering an other amplifier for some of those blue bird clear days when the signal for some stations that may becomes marginal. I can adjust the antenna but a couple of tines I have lost a channel when I hadn’t checked the signal, that morning.
> 
> 
> Thanks again.
> 
> 
> One question, what do the numbers represent on my Tv’s builtin meter. I.e. 43, 55, 70. They indicate strength but what is the unit of measure? I understand the digital cliff occurs around 50.


As for the numbers, what brand of tv do you have? When you look at the meter, does it say anything about SNR? On my Sony set, the lowest number that comes up to see a watchable signal on the meter is 5 but the SNR (which is to the left on my screen) will indicate something near 15 so the numbers are totally different representations. Not all tv's will indicate SNR so the meter is an approximate representation of the signal strength or possibly quality depending on the set.


----------



## jkeldo

wylie70 said:


> Sorry - response got posted in error. Thank you for the responses. I’ll take the time to think them over. And then play with it. The CM-3414 was suggested on another forum to keep from over powering signal. I feel I have about optimized my un-amplified signal for my location and limitations. Small antenna size and appearance are 2 of my most important needs. My signal is fairly stable. In my last storm (60 mile winds, quarter sized hail, tornado alert and heavy rain) all my shows were recordable but one was unwatchable because of pixcilization.
> 
> I am considering an other amplifier for some of those blue bird clear days when the signal for some stations that may becomes marginal. I can adjust the antenna but a couple of tines I have lost a channel when I hadn’t checked the signal, that morning.
> 
> 
> Thanks again.
> 
> 
> One question, what do the numbers represent on my Tv’s builtin meter. I.e. 43, 55, 70. They indicate strength but what is the unit of measure? I understand the digital cliff occurs around 50.


Also, I agree with some of the other posters that you do not need the distribution amplifier especially if you only have two or three devices. I use an RCA TVPRAMP1Z which has I think around 22db gain on UHF and I have it split three ways and it works well. Also has separate VHF/UHF inputs. Too much signal can overload some tuners and make it look like you're not getting the channel when it is actually overloading. One tuner I have found that did that was the Samsung DTBH260F so you do have to experiment and see what you can get without any preamplifier, then add the preamp unit and see if it helps or not.


----------



## wylie70

lifespeed said:


> No, with that tiny antenna you have not optimized your signal. Instead you have optimized "small" and "appearance", which you state are your priorities. So you have accomplished your goal, and will have to accept compromises on the lower priority of signal quality. A preamp is not really the way to address signal quality when your antenna is that small, although you can of course experiment. Good luck.


2 nd floor balcony in a 4 story apartment complex, facing a courtyard with 320 units of reflective wire mesh walls. My building should almost block any direct transmission signals. Appearance is important but also limiting. Nothing will be perfect here. What I have is probably 99% reliable but I don’t know what my first summer will bring. Primary goal is reliable signal to the dvr. Before the little modified yagi, I think I was picking up too many reflected signals. Things are better now so I am almost happy with what I have, but I want to do all I can reasonable do to be prepare in my changing environment.

I have a 6 year old , 42”, 720 dpi, Sharp tv. Good picture. 

If I go with an amp at the antenna is there any thing that I need to be aware of when I buy a splitter to replace my distribution amp? Recomendations for a splitter?


----------



## wylie70

jkeldo said:


> Also, I agree with some of the other posters that you do not need the distribution amplifier especially if you only have two or three devices. I use an RCA TVPRAMP1Z which has I think around 22db gain on UHF and I have it split three ways and it works well. Also has separate VHF/UHF inputs. Too much signal can overload some tuners and make it look like you're not getting the channel when it is actually overloading. One tuner I have found that did that was the Samsung DTBH260F so you do have to experiment and see what you can get without any preamplifier, then add the preamp unit and see if it helps or not.


Thanks. I also believe in trying all iterations and tacking something back if it does not help.


----------



## lifespeed

wylie70 said:


> 2 nd floor balcony in a 4 story apartment complex, facing a courtyard with 320 units of reflective wire mesh walls. My building should almost block any direct transmission signals. Appearance is important but also limiting. Nothing will be perfect here. What I have is probably 99% reliable but I don’t know what my first summer will bring. Primary goal is reliable signal to the dvr. Before the little modified yagi, I think I was picking up too many reflected signals. Things are better now so I am almost happy with what I have, but I want to do all I can reasonable do to be prepare in my changing environment.
> 
> I have a 6 year old , 42”, 720 dpi, Sharp tv. Good picture.
> 
> If I go with an amp at the antenna is there any thing that I need to be aware of when I buy a splitter to replace my distribution amp? Recomendations for a splitter?


It would help if you posted a link to your TVFool report, we don't have any idea of your reception conditions other than you are receiving a reflection.

That said, I think your focus on an amp is not the right place. You already noticed an improvement in reception with a (probably modest) improvement in directivity, and that was with the tiniest Yagi. Surely you can tolerate a modest size increase? I think a medium-sized Yagi would give you enough improvement in directivity to focus in on the desired reflection giving you acceptable signal quality. Only after you have optimized the antenna should you consider an amplifer, which may not even be necessary.

The CM2016 only has a 3' long boom, is that small enough? Here is a similar design with maybe less VHF gain, EZ-HD. I'm sure there are other options. Specs for antennae can be hard to come by, if you can find them look for narrow beam width. Longer boom length is a pretty good indicator of higher directivity.

Edit: one more possibility, 1Byone OUS00-0551 although UHF only. They make a UHF/VHF model also.


----------



## SFischer1

wylie70 said:


> ...
> 
> I am currently using the CM-3414 distribution amp and I am looking to add a CM-7777 amp to my mast. Both seem to use the same type power supply. The CM-3414 currently is powered thru coax into a port on the distribution amp. Will the CM -3414 pass thru dc power to the CM-7777 amp at the antenna.
> 
> ...


The CM-7777 must be placed closest electronically to the antenna and it's power injector has a separate power wall wart which must be used.

Don't worry about overloading the CM-3414 (If it is a newly purchased unit), I have a low noise preamp before my CM3418 and I have had no problems for the last 5+ years since my attic antennas were put into a partial faraday cage.

There was a lot of worry years ago about overloading distribution amps with antenna preamps but that problem was solved. I remember my self worrying and not using my CM3418 until I said to the antenna installer, "I do not like your Eight Way Splitter". He then asked for the CM3418 and as I tested my tuners one by one I said YES, YES, YES. I am very happy.

Do not rely on Signal Strength meters, My first PCI ATSC 1.0 Tuner had a signal strength on screen meter and as it also displays the video and audio, in effect a Signal Quality meter.

My four HDHomeRun tuners have Signal Strength and Signal Quality meters and I can display the Video and Audio at the same time so If I need to adjust an antenna I get good results.

SHF


----------



## nathill

SFischer1 said:


> The CM-7777 must be placed closest electronically to the antenna and it's power injector has a separate power wall wart which must be used.
> 
> Don't worry about overloading the CM-3414 (If it is a newly purchased unit), I have a low noise preamp before my CM3418 and I have had no problems for the last 5+ years since my attic antennas were put into a partial faraday cage.
> 
> There was a lot of worry years ago about overloading distribution amps with antenna preamps but that problem was solved. I remember my self worrying and not using my CM3418 until I said to the antenna installer, "I do not like your Eight Way Splitter". He then asked for the CM3418 and as I tested my tuners one by one I said YES, YES, YES. I am very happy.
> 
> Do not rely on Signal Strength meters, My first PCI ATSC 1.0 Tuner had a signal strength on screen meter and as it also displays the video and audio, in effect a Signal Quality meter.
> 
> My four HDHomeRun tuners have Signal Strength and Signal Quality meters and I can display the Video and Audio at the same time so If I need to adjust an antenna I get good results.
> 
> SHF


Agree on the HDHomeRun as a reliable indicator of signal strength and quality. I also like my Samsung Smart TV that shows strength and SNR. SNR seems to be spot on in terms of when a signal is usable or not usable.


----------



## wylie70

SFischer1 said:


> The CM-7777 must be placed closest electronically to the antenna and it's power injector has a separate power wall wart which must be used.
> 
> Don't worry about overloading the CM-3414 (If it is a newly purchased unit), I have a low noise preamp before my CM3418 and I have had no problems for the last 5+ years since my attic antennas were put into a partial faraday cage.
> 
> There was a lot of worry years ago about overloading distribution amps with antenna preamps but that problem was solved. I remember my self worrying and not using my CM3418 until I said to the antenna installer, "I do not like your Eight Way Splitter". He then asked for the CM3418 and as I tested my tuners one by one I said YES, YES, YES. I am very happy.
> 
> Do not rely on Signal Strength meters, My first PCI ATSC 1.0 Tuner had a signal strength on screen meter and as it also displays the video and audio, in effect a Signal Quality meter.
> 
> My four HDHomeRun tuners have Signal Strength and Signal Quality meters and I can display the Video and Audio at the same time so If I need to adjust an antenna I get good results.
> 
> SHF


Thank you. Channel Master gave a simular answer. The CM-3814 does not pass thru DC power. The CM-7777 power inserter is also reqired. 

I have been using my TV channel meter to give me a general feel for the best positioning of the antenna.


----------



## holl_ands

JHBrandt said:


> Circular and elliptical polarization can indeed be thought of as a combination of horizontal and vertical polarization, but with the proviso that the horizontal and vertical components are _90 degrees out of phase._ If the components were in phase, they would merely combine into a linear polarization at some angle between horizontal and vertical. But when they are 90 degrees out of phase, the effect is as Calaveras describes: the plane of polarization appears to rotate through 360 degrees each cycle.
> 
> Circular polarization has long been used in FM radio; the advantage is that an antenna needn't be aligned with the incoming wave: it can be oriented at any angle and still pick up the signal. So mobile antennas are one reason broadcasters use it.
> 
> Another advantage is that the direction of rotation is reversed when the signal is reflected. That makes it possible for a suitably-designed antenna to reject multipath reflections. Holl-Ands has analyzed some circularly polarized VHF and UHF antenna designs for multipath rejection.


Above TVTechnology articled cited the Federal Statute that mandated RIGHT HAND CIRCULAR [or Elliptical] POLARIZATION for TV Transmissions...so it is NOT allowed to be LINEAR Polarization.

Broadcasters can DOUBLE their total output power, since adding Vertical Polarization does NOT detract from their existing Horizontal Polarization ERP allocation. This helps to serve BOTH Home Viewers with Outdoor H. Antennas, Indoor Viewers with VHF Rabbit-Ears (IF at 45-deg Angle) and the ATSC 3.0 new Mobile Viewers with arbitrary Polarization as they move their Tuner about. 

As to whether a particular Home Viewer can EXPLOIT this additional TX Power is problematic....unless they build one of my DIY Right Hand Circular Polarized Antennas....or perhaps explore whether they can reduce Multipath Fading with Antenna Diversity Combining....countering the 3-dB Loss in an RF Combiner with "up to" 3-dB Gain with both an H and a V Antenna [and 90-deg Phase Shifter]....plus perhaps up to 10 dB Antenna Diversity Combining Gain as the PROBABILITY of BOTH Antennas experiencing a Fade at the same time is greatly diminished. 

PS: There ARE 90-deg Phase Shifters that use Ferrites...but BIG and expensive...or use Dual Feedlines where one is 1/4-wavelength longer than the other, such as I used in some of my CP Antenna Models:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/circularpolarized/offsetcrossedyagis/hivhf8eloscrossfd2tlhwl
Note that it is a GOOD CP Antenna only on Ch7-10, due to bandwidth restriction of using "1/4-wavelength" phase offset.

FYI: Pictures of Circular Polarized FM and TV Antennas found at bottom of fol. webpage....incl. a Polarized UHF Antenna Array that I haven't YET figured out (looks sorta like the insides of a Magnetron):
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/ces2008

Unfortunately, at this month's NAB2018 in Las Vegas, Driverless Van with Live ATSC 3.0 Demo was OUT-OF-SERVICE....and my wife and I didn't have enough energy left to make it to ATSC 3.0 Demo in (Far North) Concourse. I did not see ANY new receive TV Antennas, nor any mentioned in the NAB Show Booth Locator book. [My Fav, GOLD Lot Parking (closest to ATSC 3.0 Demo) was SHUT DOWN, and parking at nearby Monte Carlo was $20/$40....but I continued on to the (new???) BRONZE Lot just South of South Hall, $10 and my wife only had to walk about 100-ft...SCORE!!!!]


----------



## holl_ands

Generally I do NOT recommend CASCADED Preamp and Distribution Amplifier....unless you KNOW what your are doing and do some careful CALCULATIONS of expected Signal Levels....and BTW: the Preamp is usually all you need....so you might need to replace DistroAmp with a simple RF Splitter.

Depending on the particulars of a given situation, a Preamp CAN indeed "Overload" even the CM340x series (which has excellent SFDR and Max Input)...."Overload" actually means that there are two or more relatively strong signals in the SAME Band that generate Intermod Products that fall on top of WEAK channels, making them more difficult or impossible to receive....SATURATION Overload is at a MUCH higher level and wouldn't be an issue unless right next door to a Transmitter. You also need to worry about "Overload" of the Tuner Input, which is much less well known....I advise keeping strongest Tuner Input Signal Level below about -10 to -15 dBm....of course an 8-Way RF Splitter helps to reduce this signal level by about 8 dB....and not so much with a 2-Way RF Splitter...


----------



## lifespeed

holl_ands said:


> Above TVTechnology articled cited the Federal Statute that mandated RIGHT HAND CIRCULAR [or Elliptical] POLARIZATION for TV Transmissions...so it is NOT allowed to be LINEAR Polarization.
> 
> Broadcasters can DOUBLE their total output power, since adding Vertical Polarization does NOT detract from their existing Horizontal Polarization ERP allocation. This helps to serve BOTH Home Viewers with Outdoor H. Antennas, Indoor Viewers with VHF Rabbit-Ears (IF at 45-deg Angle) and the ATSC 3.0 new Mobile Viewers with arbitrary Polarization as they move their Tuner about.
> 
> As to whether a particular Home Viewer can EXPLOIT this additional TX Power is problematic....unless they build one of my DIY Right Hand Circular Polarized Antennas....or perhaps explore whether they can reduce Multipath Fading with Antenna Diversity Combining....countering the 3-dB Loss in an RF Combiner with "up to" 3-dB Gain with both an H and a V Antenna [and 90-deg Phase Shifter]....plus perhaps up to 10 dB Antenna Diversity Combining Gain as the PROBABILITY of BOTH Antennas experiencing a Fade at the same time is greatly diminished.


This is a major deal. I'm not sure many of us were aware of this difference in the new TV standard. So the repack is not the sole impetus for new equipment, ATSC 3.0 requires a new transmitter antenna regardless of whether there is a change in frequency. Although this does make sense, how else was a mobile phone supposed to have a chance of receiving signals held at all different angles?

This should provide receive antenna mfg's an opportunity to make some cool, improved multipath-resistant products. Yes, there will be a cost and complexity increase, but for those out on the fringes it will likely be worth the cost and effort. For those in strong signal areas, they can simply continue to receive the horizontal polarization as they did before with no changes other than their tuner. A third option I am guessing would be a small, high-performing dual-antenna setup for medium signal areas that is still smaller than what was needed for ATSC 1.0 H-polarization. Costs associated with mass production can often be driven down pretty well with volume. Ferrite isn't that expensive.


----------



## Intheswamp

wylie70 said:


> Thank you. Channel Master gave a simular answer. The CM-3814 does not pass thru DC power. The CM-7777 power inserter is also reqired.
> 
> I have been using my TV channel meter to give me a general feel for the best positioning of the antenna.


I would think a 4-bay bowtie would work better than the current antenna, better handling of multi-path signals. Even could be mounted flush against a wall if you have a solid wall...shallow depth to it. 2'x3' and 4 or 5 inches thick. Since you're antenna is just outside the apartment balcony door I would think the CM7777 would be *way* too much amplification for your television. Remember that the best signal you can possibly get is the signal at the feedpoint of the antenna. That is all you can ever get in terms of "quality". Amplifying a bad signal will simply give you a stronger bad signal. I think your VHF dipole and a 4-bay bow-tie would do wonders over what you have now...and without the CM7777. If you need a stronger signal for splitting the signal inside use the distribution amp that you have. I really think that the short length of coax that you are using that the CM7777 is overkill.

In using your meter to position your antenna it might actually be telling you where to point it for _less_ signal strength...just thought I'd throw that can under the rocking chair.  If better reception is attained when you get a higher meter level then it seems to be measuring quality (to me, it does). Have you tried taking the CM3414 and placing in where the CM7777 is inserted? That would give you some amplification but not nearly as much as the CM7777...yes, I know it isn't an outdoor preamp but it'll give you an idea of maybe how much amplification is "good". If it works bettern then some good electrical tape and a little silicone, and maybe mounting back under the balcony ceiling a bit and it could be "weather-proofed".

Something else that you might want to do is get a can of black spray-paint and paint your gold-colored mast...would make it blend better with the black metal railing if you're worried about people noticing it.

Best wishes,
Ed


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## holl_ands

C-M says that CM341x Series are "Weather Sealed", so sounds like CM3410 would be suitable as a Mast-Mounted Preamp....or if you're still a bit wary, can mount existing CM3414 under the eaves of the roof...or in attic, close to Attic entry point to minimize Cable Length to Antenna:
https://www.channelmaster.com/Antenna_Cable_TV_Amplifier_p/cm-3410.htm
https://www.channelmaster.com/Antenna_Cable_TV_Amplifier_p/cm-3414.htm


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## lifespeed

Intheswamp said:


> I would think a 4-bay bowtie would work better than the current antenna, better handling of multi-path signals.


What is best for multipath is a narrow beam width with minimum gain in the side lobes and rear, carefully aimed. This describes a Yagi, not a bowtie beam pattern.


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## holl_ands

lifespeed said:


> What is best for multipath is a narrow beam width with minimum gain in the side lobes and rear, carefully aimed. This describes a Yagi, not a bowtie beam pattern.


Multipath is mostly coming from the REAR Hemisphere....primarily from about +/- 45-deg from the "Back" at 270-deg [4nec2 main beam is at 90-deg]....so there is no "type" preference....it depends on the individual Antenna's F/R & F/B Ratio performance. 

BTW: LPDA's tend to have HIGHER F/B & F/R Ratios....and NO Sidelobes....but have a Practical [Length, Complexity] Gain LIMIT of about 11-12 dBi [these have NOT been specifically OPTimized for Max F/B & F/R Ratio....would be HIGHER if I did]:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/zigzaglpa/uhflpda/uhf13ellpdalayered
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/zigzaglpa/uhflpda

PS: When comparing Antennas, be sure to look at the Front/Rear Ratio (worst case in 180-deg Rear Hemisphere), rather than the Front/Rear Ratio which is ONLY for the EXACT, single Angle to the Rear [precisely 270-deg in 4nec2 Azimuthal Pattern Chart] cuz Interference and Multipath is NOT constrained to JUST that single Angle.

Well designed Yagi's [e.g. 91XG, CM4248] tend to NOT have Sidelobes, whereas SOME (NOT all) Multi-Bay Antennas have reduced level Sidelobes at about +/- 40 to 60-deg from the main lobe [depending on Frequency]:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/91xg * [91XG Beamwidth = 40 to 30-deg]*
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/uhfcm424815elfdyagicornerreflmods *[BW = 30 to 20-deg is better than 91XG]*
Note that 91XG has several SPIKES in F/R Ratio due to Null in Azimuthal Pattern at 270-deg.....but F/B Ratio isn't all that much different than the fol. Multi-Bay examples.

However, +/- 40 to 60-deg is NOT where most Multipath comes from in the Forward Hemisphere. It's mostly from the SIDES, i.e. +/- 60 to 75-deg from the main lobe due to reflections off of NEAR-BY Terrain and Man-Made Structures [with Path Loss not much different than Direct Path]....which are greatly attenuated by Multi-Bay Antenna Patterns (incl. Side Null at +/- 75 to 90-deg)....and also Multipath that is clustered around the main-beam signal arrival direction and hence NOT affected very much by the Antenna Pattern:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/siting.html [See Skyline Multipath]

BTW: CM4228HD exhibits significant Sidelobes ONLY on the Highest Freqs (at +/- 40-deg). And with my HHH mod to CM4228HD it pushes Side Lobes to +/- 45 to 55-deg, although now on ALL Freqs:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl/cm4228hd * [BW = 30 to 20-deg** is better than 91XG]*
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl/newcm4228hdwithhollandshorizharness *[BW = 30 to 20-deg** is better than 91XG]*

My FF6+DoubleAngleReflector doesn't have ANY significant Side Lobes:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/uhf6baybowtievdar *[BW = 40 to 30-deg** is SAME as 91XG]*
Actual F/B and F/R Ratios are a bit higher cuz actual Vertical Grid Spading is 1-in vice 2-in Modeled in 4nec2.

And with my FF4+DoubleAngleReflector, Side Lobes are at +/- 50 to 65-deg:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl/uhffreeform4baydblanglreflopt *[BW = 40 to 20-deg** is SAME or better than 91XG]*
Actual F/B and F/R Ratios are a bit higher cuz actual Vertical Grid Spading is 1-in vice 2-in Modeled in 4nec2.

Mclapp's M4+DoubleAngleReflector doesn't have ANY extraneous Side Lobes:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl/m410x95 * [BW = 40 to 30-deg** is SAME as 91XG]*

OTOH: A-D DB-8e Sidelobes are NOT well controlled at 0-deg Offset:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/Technical Data PDF's/DB8E-TDS.pdf

BTW: While 91XG owners might not agree, I assert that Multi-Bay Bowties have an inherent advantage in combating Multipath when Signal Level varies with Height [see "Ground Reflections" in above HDTVPrimer "Siting" link]. Antenna Output Signal is only completely Lost when ALL Bowties are in a NULL. In my FF3, FF4 and FF6 Multi-Bay Designs, Bowtie-to-Bowtie Spacings are NOT ALL the SAME (like earlier Multi-Bays), which avoids Vertical Nulls occurring on multiple Bowtie positions. Similarly, in my Stacked Antenna Designs, I intentionally offset the Upper and Lower Multi-Bays so that they have Maximized Multipath Resistance to evenly spaced Vertical Nulls.


----------



## wylie70

Intheswamp said:


> I would think a 4-bay bowtie would work better than the current antenna, better handling of multi-path signals. Even could be mounted flush against a wall if you have a solid wall...shallow depth to it. 2'x3' and 4 or 5 inches thick. Since you're antenna is just outside the apartment balcony door I would think the CM7777 would be *way* too much amplification for your television. Remember that the best signal you can possibly get is the signal at the feedpoint of the antenna. That is all you can ever get in terms of "quality". Amplifying a bad signal will simply give you a stronger bad signal. I think your VHF dipole and a 4-bay bow-tie would do wonders over what you have now...and without the CM7777. If you need a stronger signal for splitting the signal inside use the distribution amp that you have. I really think that the short length of coax that you are using that the CM7777 is overkill.
> 
> In using your meter to position your antenna it might actually be telling you where to point it for _less_ signal strength...just thought I'd throw that can under the rocking chair.  If better reception is attained when you get a higher meter level then it seems to be measuring quality (to me, it does). Have you tried taking the CM3414 and placing in where the CM7777 is inserted? That would give you some amplification but not nearly as much as the CM7777...yes, I know it isn't an outdoor preamp but it'll give you an idea of maybe how much amplification is "good". If it works bettern then some good electrical tape and a little silicone, and maybe mounting back under the balcony ceiling a bit and it could be "weather-proofed".
> 
> Something else that you might want to do is get a can of black spray-paint and paint your gold-colored mast...would make it blend better with the black metal railing if you're worried about people noticing it.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Ed


Thanks - a lot of this goes over my head but still thinking. 

A higher reading on my tv meter tends to be a more reliable signal. My DVR seems to drop recordings for a weak signal when the reading gets below 44. Storms don’t usually seem to impact signal strength but can increase pixilization. Storms in the vicinity of the transmission towers to have a greater affect than the local storms around me, but storms are not that much of an issue. Most of the transmission towers are clustered 40 miles S.S.W of me. I wonder about the difference between a line sight signal and the reflected signal that I think I am getting. For the most part my picture is good. Since switching to the RCA antenna, I have had little pixiliztion or picture loss. My primary concern is the signal strenghth appears to drop unless I periodically reorient my antenna. If I do nothing, then about every week or so, I briefly lose one of my stations. I am prepare to live with that, if needed. I feel that I am in a signal shadow and sourounded by reflective surfaces. It amazes me that my reception is seldom bad. Initially I tried positioning the antenna at different positions inside the patio. Where it is now located gets me the most reliable signal. Against the wall and in the corners gave me a big signal boost but the pixcilization was too frequent.


----------



## wylie70

Okay - starting to look at HDTV PRIMER. Any other basic tv reception sites out there. Reading about multipath signals.


----------



## rabbit73

wylie70 said:


> I am currently using the CM-3414 distribution amp and I am looking to add a CM-7777 amp to my mast.
> I do not have line of sight to the transmission towers. My signal appears to be reflected from the building opposite my apartment. I have an RCA705Z antenna with a vhf add-on above it. Through trial and error, I seem have achieved a fairly stable signal. My channel strength on the meter built into my tv varies from 45 to 70 depending on the channel and the weather. My sweet spot that I focus at on the building opposite me can change during the week, so I check it daily and make minor adjustment when necessary to maintain a strength 50 or more on the major channels, so I can record shows my Tablo DVR. Rarely do I miss a recording because of a weak signal. I would like to strengthen my signal.























> I just moved to the more directional RCA last month when I realized I was getting a reflected signal. This has greatly improved and stabilized my signal and reduced pixilation.


That was the correct move.


> I would just like to gain those few extra percentage points in signal strength that would improve the reliability of a few of the stations.


Signal strength is certainly important, but signal quality is just as important. Signal quality is defined by Signal to Noise Ratio (SNR) and by the number of Uncorrected Digital Errors. Multipath reflections will increase the number of errors. The FEC (forward error correction) has a limited ability to correct errors. Once that limit is exceeded, the uncorrected errors increase to the point that you see pixelation.


> My only Vhf station is ABC. With the addition of the Direct TV VHF retrofit kit, that station is one of my most stable stations. Channels 41(NBC), 19 (H&I) and 14 (PBS) have a signal strength ranging from 45 to 60, depending on the day and the weather. Everything else usually has a signal strength of 60 - 70.


It's good that you have improved the reception of ABC, but adding a second VHF antenna might have degraded the reception of your UHF signals because the second VHF antenna can also pick up UHF signals. What are you using to combine the second VHF antenna with the RCA antenna? Your photo shows that there might be a UVSJ (UHF/VHF combiner) in the upper dipole, but I can't be sure. If that is true, the UVSJ will pass VHF signals and block UHF signals from the upper dipole, and pass UHF signals and block VHF signals from the RCA antenna, which would be OK. You called it the "Direct TV VHF retrofit kit." Is it the Antennas Direct VHF Kit?

Does using the VHF Kit work better for ABC than using the VHF folded dipole already in the RCA antenna?


> Is adding an amp on the mast in addition to distribution preamp do able?


The correct move is to mount a preamp on the mast and have its power inserter inside. 
How are you getting the coax inside? 


> I need the separate feeds to the TV and the Tablo DVR so that I have quick access to the builtin signal meter in my TV.


Use a 2-way splitter after the preamp power inserter for the TV and DVR. If the signals are too weak, then replqace the splitter with the 3414. 


> Because I am surrounded on all sides by wire mesh and 4 story stucco apartments, my options seem limited. I feel fortunate to be getting the signal that I get.


Yes, you are fortunate.


----------



## rabbit73

wylie70 said:


> Thanks - a lot of this goes over my head but still thinking.


You are doing OK; you haven't fallen off the learning curve yet.


> A higher reading on my tv meter tends to be a more reliable signal. My DVR seems to drop recordings for a weak signal when the reading gets below 44.


That seems normal. 


> Most of the transmission towers are clustered 40 miles S.S.W of me.


I don't see a tvfool.com signal report for your location. Can you at least tell us in what city your are located so that we will have a better idea of your signals?

Can you show us a photo of what your RCA antenna "sees" when it is aimed for best reception?


> I wonder about the difference between a line sight signal and the reflected signal that I think I am getting.


There is a big difference between the two. It is possible to have a signal that is strong enough, but has so many errors that the tuner can't decode it to give you a good picture.

Where I previously lived, my antenna was aimed south for most of my channels. I was having trouble receiving CH 42 because my antenna was facing the wrong direction. The signal was strong enough, but the signal quality was poor; the tuner was not able to pick it up during a scan.










As you can see, the top of the signal is not very flat, which probably indicates a multipath reflection problem. That's not surprising, because the antenna is aimed in the opposite direction and only reflections off the objects in front of the antenna are picked up; there is no direct signal from the transmitter.

I went across the street and setup a 2-bay UHF antenna, my meter, and a preamp. I was able to get a nice scan and a stronger signal with the antenna aimed at the transmitter for CH42.










Interestingly, when I moved the antenna a few feet left or right, without changing the height or azimuth, there was a big difference in the signal strength and scan quality. This is most likely because of the tree line in front of the antenna about 200 ft away which created the non-uniform field.

The pilot signal at the left end of the scan looks good, and my 8-inch Audiovox TV in the car was able to pick up CH42 WCVE; the 22-inch Sony was too big to bring along.












> For the most part my picture is good. Since switching to the RCA antenna, I have had little pixiliztion or picture loss. My primary concern is the signal strenghth appears to drop unless I periodically reorient my antenna. If I do nothing, then about every week or so, I briefly lose one of my stations.I am prepare to live with that, if needed.


OTA TV signals constantly vary in strength. I have measured a difference in strength of as much as 10 dB in 1/2 an hour. Your goal is to have a "Fade Margin" that will allow for changes in signal strength. 


> I feel that I am in a signal shadow and sourounded by reflective surfaces.


That seems to be true. 


> Initially I tried positioning the antenna at different positions inside the patio. Where it is now located gets me the most reliable signal. Against the wall and in the corners gave me a big signal boost but the pixcilization was too frequent.


That is exactly the right way to locate your antenna; put it where the signals have the best quality and adequate strength.


----------



## rabbit73

wylie70 said:


> Okay - starting to look at HDTV PRIMER. Any other basic tv reception sites out there. Reading about multipath signals.


www.hdtvprimer.com is the best, but the site isn't always up.
other pages on that site:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/glossaryG.html#multipath
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/siting.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/basics.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/issues/erecting_antenna.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/fixes.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/comparing.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/issues/what_is_atsc.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/temporarypage.html

This one is pretty good; note that it has dropdown links for other pages with other topics:
http://otadtv.com/index.html

This is where you can do a signal report (please, or at least your zip code. If you want to keep your location private, perhaps you can give me some details in PM. What would be ideal are the coordinates of your antenna so that I could see the green signal lines in a satellite view, but you might not be willing to do that, which is your right.):
home page
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
for a report:
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29
for a map and a report:
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90
FAQs
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=57
FM signal report:
http://www.fmfool.com/

Getting Technical with Over-the-Air TV Reception (AKA: Why Can’t I Watch This Channel?)
https://www.tablotv.com/blog/getting-technical-over-air-tv-reception/

Multipath Shield (restricts acceptance angle of antenna to just one direction, and rejects reflections from other directions)
This is a post by Bill Naivar of Georgia Tech about his anti-ghosting antenna. It is called anti-ghosting because in the analog TV days multipath reflections caused ghost images displaced (offset) from the main image. With digital TV, they cause more errors.
http://www.instructables.com/id/HDTV-Multipath-Shield/

Another post by Bill Naivar:
https://mackys.livejournal.com/713021.html#/713021.html
gatech link in that post might not be safe

Bill's original post about his anti-ghosting antenna has a Norton security warning. Here are some photos from that post available from a Google cache. I would call his technique an extreme method of rejecting multipath reflections, but it works:




























This link shows an analog TV multipath ghost image in the UK:
http://www.frisnit.com/radar/


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## holl_ands

We don't know much of ANYTHING about your reception possibilities until you provide your TVFool Results....or at least zipcode, nearest cross streets and perhaps describe your location relative to nearest cross streets and surrounding buildings so we can hopefully use GoogleEarth for an overhead view.....


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## wylie70

holl_ands said:


> We don't know much of ANYTHING about your reception possibilities until you provide your TVFool Results....or at least zipcode, nearest cross streets and perhaps describe your location relative to nearest cross streets and surrounding buildings so we can hopefully use GoogleEarth for an overhead view.....


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9038fd7

I have not include the TV Fool report before because I have a very hard time getting the copied Url into the message and I don’t think the report accurately indicates my my signal reception. On TV Fool all the channels that I watch are in the upper green portion of the report. When I do the channel scan on my Tablo, all my channels indicate 4 green dots.

All this is thrown off because I am on the second floor, in a court yard surrounded on 4 sides by 4 story building clad in stucco & wire mesh. My transmission towers are 40 miles S.S.W. I am on the north side of the southern most building. I want to limit the size of my antenna.


----------



## wylie70

rabbit73 said:


> www.hdtvprimer.com is the best, but the site isn't always up.
> other pages on that site:
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/glossaryG.html#multipath
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/siting.html
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/basics.html
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/issues/erecting_antenna.html
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/fixes.html
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/comparing.html
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/issues/what_is_atsc.html
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/temporarypage.html
> 
> This one is pretty good; note that it has dropdown links for other pages with other topics:
> http://otadtv.com/index.html
> 
> This is where you can do a signal report (please, or at least your zip code. If you want to keep your location private, perhaps you can give me some details in PM. What would be ideal are the coordinates of your antenna so that I could see the green signal lines in a satellite view, but you might not be willing to do that, which is your right.):
> home page
> http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
> for a report:
> http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29
> for a map and a report:
> http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90
> FAQs
> http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=57
> FM signal report:
> http://www.fmfool.com/
> 
> Getting Technical with Over-the-Air TV Reception (AKA: Why Can’t I Watch This Channel?)
> https://www.tablotv.com/blog/getting-technical-over-air-tv-reception/
> 
> Multipath Shield (restricts acceptance angle of antenna to just one direction, and rejects reflections from other directions)
> This is a post by Bill Naivar of Georgia Tech about his anti-ghosting antenna. It is called anti-ghosting because in the analog TV days multipath reflections caused ghost images displaced (offset) from the main image. With digital TV, they cause more errors.
> http://www.instructables.com/id/HDTV-Multipath-Shield/
> 
> Another post by Bill Naivar:
> https://mackys.livejournal.com/713021.html#/713021.html
> gatech link in that post might not be safe
> 
> Bill's original post about his anti-ghosting antenna has a Norton security warning. Here are some photos from that post available from a Google cache. I would call his technique an extreme method of rejecting multipath reflections, but it works:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This link shows an analog TV multipath ghost image in the UK:
> http://www.frisnit.com/radar/


Thank you. It is hard to search for something when you don’t know what to call it. These links and your descriptions will be a great help in learn the terminology and starting to learn some of the concepts. Now I need to take the time to absorb it.

It sounds like what I want is fade margin.

The link to the TV Fool report is no longer on the server.

300 McCreary Rd., Wylie, Tx, 75098


----------



## Intheswamp

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=9038dcfe9136f5

Maybe the above link will work...???

Looks like line-of-sight to the transmitters that are ~36 miles distant. They appear to be basically all clustered together within a few degrees. Maybe your antenna is getting close to being maxed out with the distance along with the obstructions and multi-path that you appear to be dealing with...???

It sounds like you are getting some pixelation but overall good reception at your location. Depending on whether you can live with the current reception or not is up to you. I think with your antenna and your location that you are doing very well with your reception.

Having said that, I think I would go back to the basics. Start with only the antenna (no amplification). Carefully aim it to where the best signal is received and lock it down. Note the barebone performance. Then add the distribution amp both at the antenna, note the performance, and then move it inside at the television end of the coax cable. Note the performances. Remove the distribution amp and install the CM7777 at the antenna. Again, note the performance. Each time you try something different do a channel scan and write down the channels and signal strength you get. Be careful and don't move the antenna from the initial "un-amped" direction that you set it in. If you feel froggy try both amps at the same time (per your original question). When you're through look at what you've recorded and you should clearly be able to tell which is your best combination.

I'm really curious as to how the distribution amp works at the antenna feedpoint. It might be a flop or....??? 

Again, best wishes!!!
Ed


----------



## rabbit73

wylie70 said:


> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=9038fd7
> 
> I have not include the TV Fool report before because I have a very hard time getting the copied Url into the message


Thank you for the report link. It doesn't work because the last part is missing. There should be 14 characters after 3d. I did a report based on your address and the coordinates of your antenna location from the excellent oblique aerial photo you provided. Most of the aerial photos show an open field because they were taken before the apartment complex was built. The report done by Intheswamp is very similar to my report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=9038d877485892



> I don’t think the report accurately indicates my my signal reception. On TV Fool all the channels that I watch are in the upper green portion of the report. When I do the channel scan on my Tablo, all my channels indicate 4 green dots.


Yes, that is correct. The TVFool report is based primarily on elevation data between the transmitter and your location, and assumes your antenna is in the clear with no obstructions like trees or other buildings in the signal path; obviously not true in your case.

The TVFool Interactive map does have a more recent image that shows the complex with the green signal lines:










There is also a Google street view taken shortly after the complex was built.

My advice would be similar; try a preamp at the antenna with the power inserter inside. I suggest the Channel Master 7777HD/Amplify instead of the 7777. The 7777HD does have a weird mounting method, but it has two gain settings for you to play with. The 3414 can be used as a preamp at the antenna, but it only has 8 dB gain for each output.
https://www.channelmaster.com/Antenna_Cable_TV_Amplifier_p/cm-3414.htm

The 3412 has 11.5 dB for each of its two outputs, and the 3410, 15 dB. If you use the 3414 outside as a preamp at the antenna, power can be fed to it through the same coax that delivers the signals to your TV, but you will have to buy a power inserter. This is the diagram:



















But my previous suggestion still holds: try the preamp at the antenna and use the 3414 inside only if needed.

Other than that, continue on your same path trying a more directional UHF antenna at the best location to reject unwanted reflections. In order to better evaluate the changes you are making in your antenna system, you need to measure not only signal strength, but also SNR (which needs to be at least 15 dB) and uncorrected errors. My Sony TV has a diagnostics screen that gives all three. If you are into computers you could also try a Silicon Dust HDHR Duo that will give relative signal strength, signal quality (SNR), and symbol quality (the inverse of uncorrected errors).

Bad signal with picture freeze, SNR below 15 dB, and uncorrected errors:










Good Signal:




















or move to a south facing apartment


Sorry, I couldn't resist.


----------



## tylerSC

^^I think the Channel Master Amplify would be a better choice preamp than the 7777. The Amplify has adjustable gain, and seems to be a different voltage and overall design structure. I use the Amplify and it performs very well with weak or challenging channels. Also it has built in LTE filter and FM trap. The Amplify is a good performer, whereas the 7777 has proven problematic. The original 7777 performed better. And it is confusing the Amplify is also known as 7777-HD. Just look for Amplify version.


----------



## Intheswamp

tylerSC said:


> ^^I think the Channel Master Amplify would be a better choice preamp than the 7777. The Amplify has adjustable gain, and seems to be a different voltage and overall design structure. I use the Amplify and it performs very well with weak or challenging channels. Also it has built in LTE filter and FM trap. The Amplify is a good performer, whereas the 7777 has proven problematic. The original 7777 performed better. And it is confusing the Amplify is also known as 7777-HD. Just look for Amplify version.


Ok, I'm showing my ignorance here (in case nobody's noticed it!). I thought wylie70 *was* talking about the 7777HD...I didn't know they still made a 7777 (no HD suffix). So, they changed from the separate vhf/uhf connections on the old style CM7777 to a CM7777 without dual connectors *and* they also have the 7777HD/Amplify???? Now that's getting kind of confusing...but, it doesn't take much for me! 

The Antennas Direct Juice pre-amp might be an option, too. It beat the Amplify/7777HD in a shootout between the two when I was trying to nail that two-edge station from about 50 miles away. Lots of trees and leaves and hills between me and that tower. It's still not perfect but definitely watchable and record-able.


----------



## carloa

*4nec2 modeling question*

Hello Guys/Gals,

Got a question about 4nec2 modeling. Would it be best to ask in this thread or start a new thread in the HDTV Technical section?

Thanks,
Carlo


----------



## rabbit73

carloa said:


> Hello Guys/Gals,
> 
> Got a question about 4nec2 modeling. Would it be best to ask in this thread or start a new thread in the HDTV Technical section?
> 
> Thanks,
> Carlo


Hello, Carlo; welcome to the forum.

Forum member holl_ands does modeling; he is best qualified to answer your question. There is more modeling activity on the DHC forum (digitalhome.ca), where he is also a member:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81-over-air-ota-digital-television/
Antenna Research and Development:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/186-antenna-research-development/
Area 51 for Antenna Modelers & Builders (See Post #1 ) 
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/186...1-antenna-modelers-builders-see-post-1-a.html

Yurii also does modeling on that forum.


But, ask you question now in this thread, holl_ands stops by here often.


----------



## tylerSC

Intheswamp said:


> Ok, I'm showing my ignorance here (in case nobody's noticed it!). I thought wylie70 *was* talking about the 7777HD...I didn't know they still made a 7777 (no HD suffix). So, they changed from the separate vhf/uhf connections on the old style CM7777 to a CM7777 without dual connectors *and* they also have the 7777HD/Amplify???? Now that's getting kind of confusing...but, it doesn't take much for me!
> 
> The Antennas Direct Juice pre-amp might be an option, too. It beat the Amplify/7777HD in a shootout between the two when I was trying to nail that two-edge station from about 50 miles away. Lots of trees and leaves and hills between me and that tower. It's still not perfect but definitely watchable and record-able.


Yes very poor marketing and branding by new owners of Channel Master. They discontinued the original CM7777 with dual UHF/VHF inputs, and replaced it with new single combined input CM7777 version with the same name. But very different, 30db and overload issues. Then they introduced the new Amplify with adjustable gain, which is a good product, but also the same confusing name, now called 7777-HD. They should have used different model numbers for the newer products after the original 7777 was discontinued.


----------



## carloa

rabbit73 said:


> Hello, Carlo; welcome to the forum.
> 
> Yurii also does modeling on that forum.
> 
> But, ask you question now in this thread, holl_ands stops by here often.


Yep quite aware of the other forum and have been doing a lot of reading there as well. Actually I really wanted to ask the question there but it won't let me register. For some reason it doesn't like my gmail address. 

This started as a way to build a compromise antenna for the Philadelphia area which has VHF-Lo, VHF-Hi and UHF of course. The problem of course is the VHF-LO channels. We have RF 2, 4 & 6. 4 is infomercials, 2 has MeTV, Grit, Escape, H&I & retro. 6 of course is WPVI (ABC), LiveWel & LAFF-TV. So 2 & 4 aren't required but ABC is!

Using a GH, FF4 or FF6 I can get my UHF channels. I can also get PBS 12 (VHF-Hi) as well (not worried about this one).

So channel 6 is the target and the reason I'm here (and stuck). A folded dipole cut for 85 MHz mounted outside 10' won't bring in ABC. A square loop will find 6 on a channel scan but it's pixelated badly, sometimes will lock but most often will not (or no sound). So I'm a few dBs short.

Not that it matters but this is with no preamp, 50' coax into the back of the TV for testing. When going live it will be mounted 25' high, using a preamp, split into a couple of HDHomeRun Quatro tuners.

None of this really matters except to maybe understand why/how I got to this. So to gain pure ANTENNA gain I thought.
1) Add a reflector to pick up a couple dB. Easy to model. This gives me a roughly 70" wide by 18" L antenna. I could probably add a director just as easily as the reflector BUT didn't get to this yet as I decided to play with
2) Build 2 two-element arrays and vertically stack them.
I limited the vertical spacing so the two antennas are exactly 72" high. So with just a pair of 2 element arrays i'm at roughly 8dB of gain.

Now where the "puzzle" comes in. There are 3 ways to "stack them" that I tried. 
1) Model the two antennas with two vertical wires as the connections between the 2 antennas fed at the middle segment. More or less just like models Hollands has done for the whisker style 2,4,6 & 8 bays bowtie antennas.
2) Use a 300 ohm flexible transmission line between the two antennas with the coax connected to the center point of the TR feeding one 4:1 balun.
3) put a 4:1 balun on each antenna, run equal lengths coax into a coax T. So basically two separate antennas each with a "balun" feed point just like a single antenna. Of course stacked.

I get different results each way I try to model the first 2 and don't know what to believe from my goofing around trying to use 4nec2. AGT was adjusted to 0 but was under .1 dB error without it.

My initial thoughts were using a folded dipole would put me in the 280 ohm (single antenna) vs 72 ohms for 1/2 wave. Thus stacking would reduce ohms roughly in half. I thought with the folded dipoles I'd also try adding a 3rd wire to raise the impedance as a further experiment but of course haven't gotten to this as I'm stuck on the way to stack them in the model for accuracy. Obviously at this point the reflector doesn't matter.

My issue is with how to stack 2 folded dipoles 72" apart and how to properly connect them so the models give accurate results.

I'm probably doing something wrong and would love to see how someone familiar with 4nec2 would model these. 66" folded dipole stacked 72" apart is close enough (not worried about optimizations) done each of the 3 ways (solid lines, 300 ohm transmission cable, separate feeds) to compare results.

Carlo


----------



## holl_ands

I have three general answers:

A1: I have posted well over 600 4nec2 Analyses to my imageevent website (see my link at bottom of every post).
ALL of them have an associated 4nec2 File that you can download, modify and rerun....although not all of them include CMD-OPT command set needed to run nikiml's Python Optimizer program [so you would need to Copy/Paste/Edit from some other File].

If you are interested in running nikiml's Optimizer, in addition to what is found at his website, in order to "train" my 17-yo Grand-son to do MOST of what I do, I prepared extensive email tutorials on how to D/L, Setup and Run 4nec2 as well as nikiml's EVAL and OPT....I've been meaning to collect them all together into a Final TUTORIAL, if you [or anyone else] is interested....

A2: Among those 600++ 4nec2 Analyses, there are a number of different Antenna's suitable for different Bands (and combination of Bands). But before I/we can make any recommendations, I/we need for you to go to TVFool, enter your accurate location (which will be masked) and then Copy/Paste the Results URL (Web Address at top of Web Browser) into a post in a suitable thread. [IF you read the MANDATORY: READ BEFORE POSTING sticky thread, Moderator would prefer that you create a NEW THREAD, including your LOCATION in the Thread Title.] I/we also need info re your Antenna Location (e.g. indoor, attic, outdoor, tall tower) and nearby obstructions, trees, bldgs, etc....

A3: Stacking two 300-ohm Antennas results in a Combined Impedance that is STILL 300-ohms....the Interconnecting Feedline(s) act as an Impedance Transformer(s). You can do it manually, but I usually use OPT to determine the overall BEST Length and Impedance [Feedline Separation for given Wire Size]:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/stacked

PS: It it doesn't work with ONE Folded Dipole, I doubt that adding JUST another Folded Dipole is going to be enough to magically make it A-OK....need to see your TVFool Report.....


----------



## rabbit73

Thank you for details about your VHF-Low CH6 problem, Carlo. 


> So channel 6 is the target and the reason I'm here (and stuck). A folded dipole cut for 85 MHz mounted outside 10' won't bring in ABC.


I agree, you do seem to need more gain, but I'm not ready to give up on the folded dipole and go to stacking until I know more about your test.

Were you using a 50ft coax and no preamp for the folded dipole test?

It is possible that the WPVI signal is strong at your location, but you could have a high noise level from electrical interference that would reduce the SNR of WPVI to below 15 dB.

WPVI has a history of interference from the local FM transmitters; it is just below the FM band. 
Pete Putman's 2009 article talks about the problem, but unfortunately the images are missing:
Classic Pete: I’ve Got the Low-Band DTV Blues…
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/i’ve-got-the-low-band-dtv-blues…/


They have been trying to be allowed to increase their power.
https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?request=items&facid=8616










The Radio Shack FM filter (now hard to find) was designed to attenuate the FM band but protect CH6; the Antennas Direct FM filter attenuates the FM band and CH6:










Can you post your TVFool report so that we can see how strong WPVI is at your location and make an estimate of the strength of the local FM transmitters by the location implied by your TV signal report?

Since you don't yet have enough posts (>5) to give an active link to your TVFool signal report, just give us the last part and we can reconstruct it.

You can do a TVFool report here:
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

a partial link looks like this:
?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de6a46686a80dec

Don't let it bother you if there is a space between the last two characters.

You can do an FM report here, but it doesn't link; you have to post an image of the FM report.
http://www.fmfool.com/


----------



## carloa

I had a nice post with links to help express my issue but I couldn't make a post with links since I don't have 5 posts yet. 

I'll post that in a bit. I also can't post a TVFool link yet either but I can type out the info for this specific channel.

TV Fool Info (10 foot):
Call Sign: WPVI-TV
Real: 6
Virtual:6.1
Network: ABC
NM (dB): 18.8
Power (dBm): -72.0
Path: 2Edge
Distance: 41.2
True Azimuth: 359 degrees
Magnetic Azimuth: 11 degrees

Rabbitears.info same except
Distance 41
True Azimuth: 358 degrees
Power (dBm): -71.05
Path: 1Edge

At 25 foot:
TVFool:
NM (db): 24.3
Power (dBm): -66.6

Rabbitears Power (dBm): -65.78 

So -71/-72 power and 19ish NM but of course this is VHF-Lo.
Using either tool just do a general lookup of zipcode 08302 and you can view any info on WPVI channel 6.

Rabbit73 to answer a few of your questions. Yes 50 foot RG6 directly from 4:1 balun to back of antenna. No splitters, amps, nada.

Yes it's right of the border of FM. Back in the analog days you could tune all the way to the "left" side of the dial and listen to WPVI on the radio.
Here is the last part of the TVFool URL set at 10 foot (testing height)
?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9038388b50a5bc
Here is the same report at 25 foot which will be mounted height:
?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d90388664e37952

I have a few FM stations that show up in the green section at 10 foot (dipole test zone)
WNJB-FM	89.3	2.50KW -38.9 dBm 3.8 miles 75 degrees
WZFI-LP 98.5 0.08KW -41.6 dBm 2.0 miles 227 degrees
W249BY	97.7	0.01KW -45.2 dBM 1.6 miles 53 degrees	
WDEL-FM 101.7	3.30KW -45.7 dBm 6.0 miles 261 degrees
WCNU-LP 102.5 0.10KW -48.0 dBM 1.3 miles 207 degrees
WVLT	92.1	6.00KW -49.8 dBM 8.9 miles 66 degrees
WDSD	94.7	50.00KW -49.8dBM 24.7 miles 227 degrees
You can run this with zip code 08302 to see other stations.

I will be installing an amp later on mast along with additional height (10 to 25 feet). If I can get something to work at present at 10 foot with 50' coax then the additional height plus less coax will give me a couple additional dBs.


----------



## carloa

BTW, the folded dipole was tested with lengths from 72" down to 66" I think it was. I shortened the antenna an inch at a time.

My hunch is interference since the Power/NM would appear OK. I'm thinking the more directional the antenna the less chance of picking up interference not generated in my home environment. With that said my home is probably pretty noisy with the half dozen computers, multiple WIFI hot spots (6 or so), old electric (house 80+ years old), lights always on, TVs constantly on, pond pumps, etc

Carlo


----------



## carloa

I was thinking of using the RCA TVPRAMP1R Amplifier or Juice (after combining UHF/VHF) and just found a link with specs for the FM Trap and it looks like it cuts into channel 6 big time as well.

Don't think I can post the link yet or not but it's on forum dot tvfool dot com /showthread.php?t=13530
I might have to try and track down the old RS model 1500024 (Apr 2015)FM trap somewhere or find a suitable replacement as the RCA preamp probably isn't going to help me at all.

Carlo


----------



## rabbit73

Thank you for the partial links; I think they are correct:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=9038388b50a5bc


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=90388664e37952


I will study them and come back; I have to help wife now.


----------



## carloa

holl_ands said:


> I have three general answers:
> 
> A1: I have posted well over 600 4nec2 Analyses to my imageevent website (see my link at bottom of every post).
> ALL of them have an associated 4nec2 File that you can download, modify and rerun....although not all of them include CMD-OPT command set needed to run nikiml's Python Optimizer program [so you would need to Copy/Paste/Edit from some other File].
> 
> If you are interested in running nikiml's Optimizer, in addition to what is found at his website, in order to "train" my 17-yo Grand-son to do MOST of what I do, I prepared extensive email tutorials on how to D/L, Setup and Run 4nec2 as well as nikiml's EVAL and OPT....I've been meaning to collect them all together into a Final TUTORIAL, if you [or anyone else] is interested....
> 
> A2: Among those 600++ 4nec2 Analyses, there are a number of different Antenna's suitable for different Bands (and combination of Bands). But before I/we can make any recommendations, I/we need for you to go to TVFool, enter your accurate location (which will be masked) and then Copy/Paste the Results URL (Web Address at top of Web Browser) into a post in a suitable thread. [IF you read the MANDATORY: READ BEFORE POSTING sticky thread, Moderator would prefer that you create a NEW THREAD, including your LOCATION in the Thread Title.] I/we also need info re your Antenna Location (e.g. indoor, attic, outdoor, tall tower) and nearby obstructions, trees, bldgs, etc....


I've looked at tons of them and loaded the 4nec2 files. This in part is why I don't understand the impedance mismatch I mentioned earlier which I'll touch on below. I'm struggling to learn the finer points of 4nec2 so my "misunderstanding" below could simply be attributed to this.



> A3: Stacking two 300-ohm Antennas results in a Combined Impedance that is STILL 300-ohms....the Interconnecting Feedline(s) act as an Impedance Transformer(s). You can do it manually, but I usually use OPT to determine the overall BEST Length and Impedance [Feedline Separation for given Wire Size]:
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/stacked
> 
> PS: It it doesn't work with ONE Folded Dipole, I doubt that adding JUST another Folded Dipole is going to be enough to magically make it A-OK....need to see your TVFool Report.....


The main point of my first post is that I get different results in 4Nec2 depending on how things are modeled which is alluded to by holl_ands in A3 answer but still not clear "to me". It's been a long time 30+ years since my 10 & 11 meter play days and building antennas so things are slowly coming back but fuzzy. The next section will sound like I'm expressing said info as fact but I'm not, but it's my current understanding. Please by all means show me what's wrong with the info in the sections. 


This is really the heart of my first post as I don't understand why/how many of the models posted have accurate SWR. I'm certainly not saying they are wrong but I don't see the needed matching sections one would normally need to "fix" the impedance of stacking multiple antennas to bring the impedance back to single antenna levels (or even better matched).

I think holl_ands might have broached on my issue with this:


> A3: Stacking two 300-ohm Antennas results in a Combined Impedance that is STILL 300-ohms....the Interconnecting Feedline(s) act as an Impedance Transformer(s). You can do it manually, but I usually use OPT to determine the overall BEST Length and Impedance [Feedline Separation for given Wire Size]:


I agree it "could" be used to combine them but it would need a matching section with specific length wire wrapped/connected in specific ways. I don't see how the impedance is NOT "halved" on many models posted as there isn't anything remotely resembling a matching section joining the two antennas.








This could certainly be used for an 8 bay. (qty 4 - 50 ohm antennas through matching to 50 ohm out, same principle with any impedance). That's one style matching method but obviously there are many ways to do it. My issue/questioning is with the straight wire "hookup/connections".

If you do nothing special except use two pieces of even length copper wire to keep the antennas in phase you will still be changing the impedance. As an example if you had a perfect 300 ohm antenna for the channel you are viewing then you would get 75 ohm out the 4:1 balun. Now take another identical antenna stacked with a 4:1 balun and 75 ohms out.

Now run both 75 Ohm coax lines into the top of an F Type T connector and you will get 37.5 Ohm out the bottom of the T not 75 Ohms.
In order to get 75 Ohms out you need to use a 75 Ohms combiner which isn't a simple T. Same principle with using straight wire for the connections.

A coupe of reference pages:
http://www.wb5cxc.com/ant_match.html
http://www.qsl.net/dk7zb/Stacking/coax.htm
https://ham.stackexchange.com/quest...tennas-such-that-they-appear-as-one-50-Ω-load



So hopefully that info above will help to express why I don't understand how just using two vertical length copper wires to connect two antennas cuts it unless it also happens to be mathematically correct for a proper match of a specific antenna.

If I create folded dipole in 4nec2 I'll get roughly 280 for impedance for the specific tuned frequency. Stack 2 of them with just 2 pure wire segments connecting them and I get 140ish not 280ish. NOTE: this is not using a transmission line but just 2 additional wires with the load in the middle similar to many models I see here.

Hopefully that will explain a bit more of what I was getting at in the first post about the 3 ways I've seen stacked antennas joined together.

Carlo


----------



## carloa

To add to the above about the use of a 3 wire folded dipole (to play with) vs 2 wire (mentioned in op post). If I were to use 3 wire folded dipoles vs the normal 2 wire dipoles the impedance at the cut frequency would be 600 ohms vs 300 (ohms rounded up as normal) per antenna. Now when stacked a simple non-matched harness will bring the ohms back to single antenna levels of 300 ohms for use with a 4:1 balun.

The below article has good info on multi-wire folded dipoles and impedance along with the math to calculate any wire combo.
http://www.aarontaht.com/


----------



## rabbit73

*carloa*



holl_ands said:


> A3: Stacking two 300-ohm Antennas results in a Combined Impedance that is STILL 300-ohms....the Interconnecting Feedline(s) act as an Impedance Transformer(s). You can do it manually, but I usually use OPT to determine the overall BEST Length and Impedance [Feedline Separation for given Wire Size]


What I think holl_ands means is that the wires between the upper antenna and the feedpoint between the two antennas form a transmission line that converts the 300 ohms of the upper antenna to 600 ohms. When it is connected in parallel with the similar transmission line from the lower antenna, you have 300 ohms at the feedpoint. The diameter of the wires and their spacing determine the impedance of the transmission line transformer. The same thing can be done, perhaps more easily, with two stacked 3-wire folded dipoles.

Using coax, you can combine two identical 75 ohm antennas, as you said, in parallel giving 37.5 ohms. If you add a 1/4 matching transformer section of 50 ohm coax (similar to L2 in the 8-bay diagram), you end up back at 75 ohms for the input of the preamp. 



carloa said:


> My hunch is interference since the Power/NM would appear OK. I'm thinking the more directional the antenna the less chance of picking up interference not generated in my home environment. With that said my home is probably pretty noisy with the half dozen computers, multiple WIFI hot spots (6 or so), old electric (house 80+ years old), lights always on, TVs constantly on, pond pumps, etc


I think that is your best idea, to construct a more directional antenna, like a 3 element yagi for channel 6, instead of stacking two dipoles. This will give you more gain AND improve your SNR.

WNJB FM on 89.3 MHz, although close in frequency, doesn't look like a huge threat to CH6. With a signal power of -34.6 dBm, it is 32 dB stronger than WPVI with a signal power of -66.6 dBm, both at 25 feet. If WNJB were an adjacent TV channel, your tuner should be able to reject adjacent channel interference up to 33 dB stronger, and WNJB is 75 degrees off WPVI azimuth.
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/464663ee37/Radar-FM.png

Your 25ft TVFool report for reference, since it is on the previous page:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=90388664e37952

This is a rough design, not verified by modeling, for a CH6 attic yagi with wire elements:


----------



## rcodey

Carloa, one thing to check is unlicensed FM stations in your area . 87.7 and 87.9 are popular frequencies in NJ for these stations . I suggest you tune your car radio to these frequencies to see if there are any bandits operating there . I am in Northern New Jersey and until 6 months ago had good reception of WPVI with a Lo VHF antenna . The bandits showed up and now my reception is usually limited to nighttime .


----------



## holl_ands

TVFool may provide the "best" estimate of RX Signal Levels, but it isn't keeping up with all of the recent Channel Frequency and Network Reshufflings. Fol. Rabbitears report for Philly DMA (upcoming changes this year and next on Left) is more current:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=wacp#station

For NOW, you should look at fol. list of Networks on Ch2-6 to determine whether you ALSO want (say) Ch2 Networks, in addition to Ch6 Networks....which fortunately are in same direction [or others in Ch2-6 Band???], but would require a Much Wider Ch2-6 Lo-VHF Band Antenna, rather than a "smaller" Ch6 (only) Antenna: [Let me know....]

*Rabbtears List for Carloa in Bridg**eton, NJ 08302:*

Virtual (Real) Callsign Network City State Miles Direction dBm Signal Path
52‑1 (22) WNJT PBS TRENTON NJ 28 46° -52.97 Fair 1Edge
23‑1 (22) WNJS PBS CAMDEN NJ 28 46° -52.97 Fair 1Edge

4‑1 (4) WACP IND ATLANTIC CITY NJ 29 45° -56.00 Fair 1Edge
Display Physical Video Audio Call Sign Network/Programming
04-1 4.1 1080i DD2.0 WACP Infomercials 
04-2 4.2 480i DD2.0 WACP-D2 Evine Too 
04-3 4.3 480i DD2.0 WACP-D3 Heartland 
04-4 4.4 480i (w) DD2.0 WACP-D4 Shop LC 
04-5 4.5 480i (w) DD2.0 WACP-D5 Arirang 
04-6 4.6 480i DD2.0 WACP-D6 QVC 
04-7 4.7 480i DD2.0 WACP-D7 QVC2 

6‑1 (6) WPVI ABC PHILADELPHIA PA 41 358° -67.74 Fair 1Edge
06-1 6.3 720p DD5.1 WPVI-HD ABC "6 ABC" 
06-2 6.4 720p DD5.1 LiveWell 
06-3 6.5 480i DD2.0 LAFF-TV 

44‑1 (44) WMCN IND PRINCETON NJ 28 46° -68.18 Fair 1Edge

2‑1 (2) KJWP IND WILMINGTON DE 41 359° -69.44 Fair 1Edge
02-1 2.1 720p DD2.0 2-MeTV
02-2 2.2 480i DD2.0 2-GRIT 
02-3 2.3 480i DD2.0 2-ESCAPE 
02-4 2.4 480i (w) DD2.0 2-H&I Heroes & Icons 
02-5 2.5 480i (w) DD2.0 2-RTV Retro TV 

3‑1 (26) KYW CBS PHILADELPHIA PA 41 358° -72.17 Fair 1Edge
03-1 26.1 1080i DD5.1 KYW-TV CBS "CBS 3" 
03-2 26.2 480i (w) DD2.0 Decades 

57‑1 (32) WPSG CW PHILADELPHIA PA 41 359° -72.62 Fair 1Edge
57-1 32.1 1080i DD5.1 WPSG CW "The CW Philly" 

62‑1 (34) WWSI TLM MOUNT LAUREL NJ 41 359° -73.01 Fair 1Edge
10-1 34.3 1080i DD5.1 WCAU-TV NBC "NBC10" 
10-2 34.4 480i (w) DD2.0 COZI-TV 
62-1 34.5 1080i DD2.0 WWSI-TV "Telemundo 62" 
62-2 34.6 480i DD2.0 EXITOS TeleXitos 

10‑1 (34) WCAU NBC PHILADELPHIA PA 41 359° -73.01 Fair 1Edge
10-1 34.3 1080i DD5.1 WCAU-TV NBC "NBC10" 
10-2 34.4 480i (w) DD2.0 COZI-TV 
62-1 34.5 1080i DD2.0 WWSI-TV "Telemundo 62" 
62-2 34.6 480i DD2.0 EXITOS TeleXitos 

17‑1 (17) WPHL MyN PHILADELPHIA PA 41 359° -73.08 Fair 1Edge
17-1 17.3 720p DD5.1 WPHL-DT MyN "PHL 17" 
17-2 17.5 480i DD2.0 Antenna TV 
17-3 17.4 480i DD2.0 This TV
17-4 17.6 480i DD2.0 Comet TV 
65-1 17.7 720p DD5.1 WUVP-DT "Univision 65" 
65-2 17.8 480i (w) DD2.0 Bounce TV 
65-3 17.9 480i (w) DD2.0 Justice Network 

65‑1 (17) WUVP UNI VINELAND NJ 41 359° -73.08 Fair 1Edge
40‑1 (36) WMGM IND WILDWOOD NJ 33 131° -74.60 Fair 2Edge
48‑1 (36) WGTW TBN MILLVILLE NJ 33 131° -74.60 Fair 2Edge

29‑1 (42) WTXF FOX PHILADELPHIA PA 41 359° -79.05 Poor 1Edge
29-1 42.3 720p DD5.1 WTXF-DT FOX "Fox 29" 
29-2 42.4 480i (w) DD2.0 Movies!
29-3 42.5 480i (w) DD2.0 LIGHT TV 
29-4 42.6 480i DD2.0 BUZZR 
Alternate Location:
29-1 38.3 720p DD5.1 WTXFDT FOX "Fox 29" 
29-2 38.4 480i (w) DD2.0 Movies!
29-3 38.5 480i (w) DD2.0 LIGHT TV 
29-4 38.6 480i DD2.0 BUZZR 

12‑1 (12) WHYY PBS WILMINGTON DE 41 359° -79.09 Poor 1Edge
61‑1 (31) WPPX ION WILMINGTON DE 41 359° -79.25 Poor 1Edge
51‑1 (25) WTVE IND READING PA 41 359° -79.59 Poor 1Edge

36‑1 (5) WMDE DOVER DE 57 234° -80.22 Poor 2Edge
36-1 5.1 1080i DD2.0 WMDE Infomercials (01p-09a) 
36-1 5.1 1080i DD2.0 WMDE Biz TV (09a-01p) 

34‑1 (50) WQAV GLASSBORO NJ 27 73° -81.21 Poor 2Edge
50‑1 (10) WMGM ATLANTIC CITY NJ 29 45° -81.40 Poor 1Edge

47‑1 (3) WEVD DOVER DE 27 269° -81.50 Poor 2Edge
47-1 3.3 720p DD5.1 SAP Audio Icon WMDT-HD ABC "WMDT 47" 
47-2 3.4 720p DD5.1 WMDT-D2 CW+ "Delmarva CW 3" 
47-3 3.5 480i DD2.0 WMDT-D3 Me-TV 
47-4 3.6 480i DD2.0 ION 

28‑1 (28) WFPA UNIMAS PHILADELPHIA PA 41 359° -94.17 Poor 1Edge


----------



## holl_ands

I analyzed various Wire Sizes (and Tubing O.D.'s) for Lo-VHF Folded Dipoles, with particular attention on Ch6...note that Raw Gain is about 2.1 dBi:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/vhffoldeddipole *[Ch6 Gain ~ 2.1 dBi]*
It is NOT very practical to built a GOOD Ch2-6 Folding Dipole Antenna [well maybe if it's a metal Tubing of 2-3 inches O.D. However if ONLY Ch6 is desired (or Ch5+Ch6+FM), then Thick Tubing is NOT required, so AWG10/12 house electrical wiring can be used.

A significantly higher Gain Ch6 Antenna is likely required....such as fol. Ch2-6+FM Hourglass-Loop....or [JUST] Ch6 Hourglass-Loop with 3 Reflector Wires. These can ALL be constructed by stringing AWG10/12 wire on a suitable non-metallic frame, such as PVC Rectangle with interior cross-brace(s)....or mounted on (or preferably AWAY from) an exterior wall, so it acts as a Reflector:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/lovhffmhourglassloop *[Ch6 Gain ~ 4.5 dBi, Ch2 Gain ~ 3.3 dBi]*
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/ch2ch3hourglassloopreflrods *[Ch2 Gain ~ 9.0 dB]*

FYI: I also did fol. Dual Lo/Hi-VHF Band Optimization [Ch2-13] using a single 6-Whisker Bowtie...it provides about 5 dBi Raw Gain on Ch6....about same as two Stacked Folded Dipoles....but drops off to about 3.5 dBi on Ch2;
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/dipoles/vhf1baybowtie *[Ch6 Gain ~ 5.0 dBi, Ch2 Gain ~ 3.5 dBi]*

In looking at my prelim runs, I see that it should be advantageous to do a Joint Optimization of the 6-Whisker Bowtie for JUST Ch2 and Ch6....so it's running overnight....[A: NOPE...no significant improvement.]


----------



## carloa

rabbit73 said:


> *carloa*


I typically like to work in meters/mm as it's easier to work with building stuff. I did a quick check of the antenna you posted and and the version I was planning on using. I took measurements at 82, 85 & 88MHz (bottom, mid, top) and came up with:
82 MHz, 7.52 raw gain, 2.24741 SWR, 6.826680529 net gain
85 MHz, 8.03 raw gain, 2.47949	SWR, 7.163911671 net gain
88 MHz, 8.89 raw gain, 5.51 SWR, 6.05049613 net gain


----------



## carloa

holl_ands said:


> TVFool may provide the "best" estimate of RX Signal Levels, but it isn't keeping up with all of the recent Channel Frequency and Network Reshufflings. Fol. Rabbitears report for Philly DMA (upcoming changes this year and next on Left) is more current:
> https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=wacp#station


Channel 4 (VHF-Lo) is nothing but infomercials, Channel 2 has MeTV but the other sub channels are all 480i so not to worried about them. Honestly I don't recall ever really watching MeTV so it's not a channel I would worry about the least not picking up. Being down on real channel 2 just makes it not worth it due to antenna size. I'd rather just focus attention on WPVI channel 6 which is ABC and needed.

I can pick up far more stations on UHF then either TVFool or Rabbitears reports. UHF isn't a problem at all for me except for the different compass directions I would have to point to pick up different stations. I can pull in and watch stations in MD if I wanted. However they are just dupes of my Phila stations so no point except to say I can watch TV at about 80 miles. Everything I want is at 359 degrees and 46 degrees.

Weakest station I have at 359 degrees is FOX with a NM of 10.54.
Weakest station I have at 46 degrees has a NM of 36.51.

So even using something like the New FF6 pointed straight at 359 with 47 degree tower in a side lobe null (negative dB) I'm still good enough. Slight adjust of a degree or two aiming even with the FF6 will be fine. 

So right now it's just Channel 6 that's the minor issue.

Holl_ands, have you done anything with circular polarized antennas? Being that WPVI is circular polarized vs just horizontal this might be worth exploring especially since these are 1 or 2 Edge.



holl_ands said:


> FYI: I also did fol. Dual Lo/Hi-VHF Band Optimization [Ch2-13] using a single 6-Whisker Bowtie...it provides about 5 dBi Raw Gain on Ch6....about same as two Stacked Folded Dipoles....but drops off to about 3.5 dBi on Ch2;
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/dipoles/vhf1baybowtie
> 
> In looking at my prelim runs, I see that it should be advantageous to do a Joint Optimization of the 6-Whisker Bowtie for JUST Ch2 and Ch6....so it's running overnight....


That's going to be a huge bowtie I'd think at 12 to 15 foot wide (guessing) which would probably require a framed support structure of some type making it not so practical and probably pretty heavy with a lot of additional wind resistance to boot. But with that said I'd still like to see the optimized results you come up with.

AWG#4 or pipe for the build model? Wondering what you would use so that the whiskers don't bend from their own weight at those distances.

For use of space I'm thinking a stacked 2, 3 or 4 element channel 6 yagi is the best use of space.


----------



## rabbit73

carloa said:


> I typically like to work in meters/mm as it's easier to work with building stuff. I did a quick check of the antenna you posted and and the version I was planning on using. I took measurements at 82, 85 & 88MHz (bottom, mid, top) and came up with:
> 82 MHz, 7.52 raw gain, 2.24741 SWR, 6.826680529 net gain
> 85 MHz, 8.03 raw gain, 2.47949 SWR, 7.163911671 net gain
> 88 MHz, 8.89 raw gain, 5.51 SWR, 6.05049613 net gain


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: Joint Optimization of Lo-VHF Six-Whisker Bowtie for Ch2+Ch6 didn't provide any significant improvement....so never mind....I'll be concentrating on Yagi [Long & Wide] vs Hourglass-Loop [Tall & Wide]....

FMFool Report actually shows level of Ch6 (WVLI-TV) on same chart as FM Signal Strengths...NONE of them are anywhere strong enough to be a Co-Channel Interference problem. IF there are Pirate Stations NOT on the Chart, then they would need to be fairly CLOSE...and Ch6 Antenna Pattern would suppress them to some extent if NOT in the Beam.

I'll do a Ch6 Yagi Optimization to investigate *recommended Element Size* and Optimized Dimensions (I've found that MOST On-Line info is close, but no banana)....

If ABC on Ch6 [ABC + LiveWell + LAFF] is problematic, then you MIGHT want to investigate ABC on Ch3 (ABC + CW + MeTV + ION), which TVFool estimates to have SAME RX Signal Strength as Ch6...but the Antenna is obviously going to be Bigger....and ideally you might want to consider a Lo-VHF Band Antenna that covers BOTH Ch3 and Ch6. To determine whether it's doable, I would recommend that you construct the fol. Ch3 Hourglass-Loop Antenna...first without Reflector Wires and then ADD the 3 Reflector Wires. Note that you have a choice of Tall [9+ dBi] or 8-ft "Short" [8+ dBi] Antennas. You can save time by doing a cheap and dirty prototype first, stringing AWG10 house electrical wire (no need to strip insulation) on some sort of "frame"...which COULD be a sheets of 4'x8' plywood with temporary nails at the "corners" of the Antenna...and "extender" boards for the "corners" than extend well beyond 4-ft width:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/ch2ch3hourglassloopreflrods

PS: I also did a Ch3-6 Hourglass-Loop Optimization....but didn't do any with Reflector Rods to significantly improve Gain. I'll do a new Optimization for this even Better alternative and Constrain it to a Max Height of 8-ft:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/lovhfhourglassloopnorefl


----------



## holl_ands

Amateur Band Antenna "Rules of Thumb", such as assuming 1/4-Wavelength does something or another becomes very problematic when you TRY to apply them to VERY Wide Bandwidth TV Bands, where 1/4-Wavelength varies all over the place: 470 MHz = 6.3 inches, 584 MHz = 5.1 inches, 698 MHz 4.2 = inches....a difference of 1.5:1:
http://www.procato.com/calculator-wavelength-frequency

When Optimizing a simple Stick Dipole, you can chose to match to 75-ohms, which results in a very narrow bandwidth over which SWR is acceptably low....esp. for Transmitter which expects Antenna SWR [plus Feedline Mismatch Contribution] to be significantly under the Transmitter Max of (say) about 2.0. It turns out that for Very Wideband TV Antennas, loading a [20% Longer] Stick Dipole into a 300-ohm load actually provides BETTER SWR across the entire Band....which is exploited by typical Lo/Hi-VHF Combo LPDA's....and Bowties:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/dipoles/uhfstickdipole
Also note that "Resonance", defined to be when X(ohm)=0 [and Phase=0] is on a significantly Lower Freq [about 565 MHz] than Mid-Band [584 MHz]....

In the fol. webpage, I analyzed a UHF Folded Dipole with QICT (Quarter-Inch Copper Tubing) as well as AWG10 house electrical wiring (MUST strip insulation)....plus the UHF Tri-Fold Dipole:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/uhffoldeddipoles
QICT provides a good SWR Match (under 2.5) for 470-698 MHz....but with AWG10, SWR at 470 and 698 MHz reach 3.1, a bit more than desired [my target is SWR under 2.7 (1.03 dB MisMatch Loss]...note that in addition to the MisMatch Loss, Dr. Obed Bendov determined that excessive SWR also degrades DIGITAL signals due to Intersymbol Interference as signals bounce up and down a LONG Coax [NOT a problem with short wire connection to Preamp]. And Tri-Fold Dipole with AWG10 is even WORSE:
https://www.microwaves101.com/calculators/872-vswr-calculator

Looking at the UHF Folded Dipole Impedance vs Frequency, the Impedance MAGNITUDE [Green Line, Z(ohm)] is ROUGHLY in Ballpark of 300-ohms for low and mid-band Freqs, but rises to more than TWICE that at 698 MHz....fortunately, we can allow for a significantly higher SWR in Receive Antennas [and a Full UHF Band Transmit Dipole would need to be a VERY FAT Tubular or Square Structure]:

PS: I've already provided link to Lo-VHF Folded Dipole Designs:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/vhffoldeddipole


----------



## rabbit73

carloa said:


> Yep quite aware of the other forum and have been doing a lot of reading there as well. Actually I really wanted to ask the question there but it won't let me register. For some reason it doesn't like my gmail address.
> Carlo


Looks like they finally let you in there, Carlo. Congratulations and have fun!

The WPVI signal skims the surface of the earth and is blocked by hills just before your location. You need all the antenna height you can easily manage.


----------



## holl_ands

carloa said:


> Holl_ands, have you done anything with circular polarized antennas? Being that WPVI is circular polarized vs just horizontal this might be worth exploring especially since these are 1 or 2 Edge.


See my fol. post re. Circular/Elliptical Polarization:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...-related-hardware-topic-572.html#post56105308


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## Finch85

rabbit73 said:


> I think 3 feet would be OK, with the 91XG on top, especially since the two antennas will be aimed in different directions; try the easy way first.


So I'm a little late updating but I installed my STELLAR LABS  30-2475 antenna a couple weeks back. I'm picking up ABC great now along with a few other channels. I'm hoping that 21-3 Laff channel can get better as I like some of the shows on thay channel. I'll keep tweaking but I have a lot of trees in that 52 deg direction. Thanks again for all of the help! 










Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## nathill

Finch85 said:


> So I'm a little late updating but I installed my STELLAR LABS  30-2475 antenna a couple weeks back. I'm picking up ABC great now along with a few other channels. I'm hoping that 21-3 Laff channel can get better as I like some of the shows on thay channel. I'll keep tweaking but I have a lot of trees in that 52 deg direction. Thanks again for all of the help!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Impressive!
I'm intrigued by the roof-mount.
Never seen one with such a long pole.
Can you tell us all who makes it and where you got it?


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## hdtvluvr

That looks like a DirecTV dish mount with a pole inserted into it.


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## Finch85

Hdtvluvr is correct. Direct tv mount. I improvised.  Thanks


nathill said:


> Impressive!
> I'm intrigued by the roof-mount.
> Never seen one with such a long pole.
> Can you tell us all who makes it and where you got it?


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## nathill

Finch85 said:


> Hdtvluvr is correct. Direct tv mount. I improvised.  Thanks
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Thanks.
Good work on the mount!


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## wylie70

Intheswamp said:


> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=9038dcfe9136f5
> 
> Maybe the above link will work...???
> 
> Looks like line-of-sight to the transmitters that are ~36 miles distant. They appear to be basically all clustered together within a few degrees. Maybe your antenna is getting close to being maxed out with the distance along with the obstructions and multi-path that you appear to be dealing with...???
> 
> It sounds like you are getting some pixelation but overall good reception at your location. Depending on whether you can live with the current reception or not is up to you. I think with your antenna and your location that you are doing very well with your reception.
> 
> Having said that, I think I would go back to the basics. Start with only the antenna (no amplification). Carefully aim it to where the best signal is received and lock it down. Note the barebone performance. Then add the distribution amp both at the antenna, note the performance, and then move it inside at the television end of the coax cable. Note the performances. Remove the distribution amp and install the CM7777 at the antenna. Again, note the performance. Each time you try something different do a channel scan and write down the channels and signal strength you get. Be careful and don't move the antenna from the initial "un-amped" direction that you set it in. If you feel froggy try both amps at the same time (per your original question). When you're through look at what you've recorded and you should clearly be able to tell which is your best combination.
> 
> I'm really curious as to how the distribution amp works at the antenna feedpoint. It might be a flop or....???
> 
> Again, best wishes!!!
> Ed


I don’t know much so I have to try things.
When I first cut the cord, I tried the CM 7777 HD Amplify with no improvement. This was before I found the signal meter on my tv. Then I tried a CM-7778 medium gain amp and got no picture. So I wound up with a cm-3414 distribution amp.

Update on your suggestions using signal meter on my tv.
Moving the cm-3414 distribution amp outside resulted in reduced signal strength on all channels.
Because I had no results with the cm-7778 originally, I tried the cm-7777 high gain amp, with an antennuator before the amp, I got a good picture on all the channels but with too much antennuation and a slight change in signal could cause an overload.
Trying the Cm-7778 medium gain amp from a different source than my first cm-7778, I got a good signal for all my uhf channels but no vhf channel. Adding a 3 db attenuator before the cm-7778 amp gives me a good signal on all channels, uhf and vhf. Trying a 6 db anttenuator slightly reduced the signal with no change in the picture, so I went back to the 3 db attenuator.
Then I added the Cm-3414 distibution preamp after the cm-7778 amp with a slight improvement in signal strength and a good signal on uhf and vhf.
So I have an antenna, 3 db antenuator, cm-7778 amp, cm3414 distribution amp and the tv.
My signal has been good for the last 5 days. I am happy with the results but only time will tell.
I got a good signal before this but it is reflected off the building next to me, the sweet spot would move slightly and the signal would would fade. I wanted to keep the antenna small because I am in an apartment.
Thanks to the forum, I know a little more than I did. Multipathed signals, amps, anttenuators, impedence and antennas are still like ghosts floating in my mind. So I thank everyone for putting up with me.


----------



## nathill

wylie70 said:


> I don’t know much so I have to try things.
> When I first cut the cord, I tried the CM 7777 HD Amplify with no improvement. This was before I found the signal meter on my tv. Then I tried a CM-7778 medium gain amp and got no picture. So I wound up with a cm-3414 distribution amp.
> 
> Update on your suggestions using signal meter on my tv.
> Moving the cm-3414 distribution amp outside resulted in reduced signal strength on all channels.
> Because I had no results with the cm-7778 originally, I tried the cm-7777 high gain amp, with an antennuator before the amp, I got a good picture on all the channels but with too much antennuation and a slight change in signal could cause an overload.
> Trying the Cm-7778 medium gain amp from a different source than my first cm-7778, I got a good signal for all my uhf channels but no vhf channel. Adding a 3 db attenuator before the cm-7778 amp gives me a good signal on all channels, uhf and vhf. Trying a 6 db anttenuator slightly reduced the signal with no change in the picture, so I went back to the 3 db attenuator.
> Then I added the Cm-3414 distibution preamp after the cm-7778 amp with a slight improvement in signal strength and a good signal on uhf and vhf.
> So I have an antenna, 3 db antenuator, cm-7778 amp, cm3414 distribution amp and the tv.
> My signal has been good for the last 5 days. I am happy with the results but only time will tell.
> I got a good signal before this but it is reflected off the building next to me, the sweet spot would move slightly and the signal would would fade. I wanted to keep the antenna small because I am in an apartment.
> Thanks to the forum, I know a little more than I did. Multipathed signals, amps, anttenuators, impedence and antennas are still like ghosts floating in my mind. So I thank everyone for putting up with me.



Your experience sounds a lot like mine. I personally think digital over-the-air reception requires a LOT of experimentation, and no two situations/locations are the same. It took you a lot of work, but in the end, I'll bet you think it was worth it.


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## Intheswamp

@wylie70, thanks for the signal report! I had been wondering how you were doing with all of this. As for understanding all the jargon and what it is...don't worry about it as long as you've attained the desired reception. Enjoy!!! :smile:


----------



## wylie70

Intheswamp said:


> @wylie70, thanks for the signal report! I had been wondering how you were doing with all of this. As for understanding all the jargon and what it is...don't worry about it as long as you've attained the desired reception. Enjoy!!! :smile:[/QU
> 
> Thank you for your help, I did one more thing this morning. I removed the VHF addon dipole and was able to remove the 3 db attenuator from before the Cm-7778 amp. Now I am just using the RCA antenna + cm-7778 + cm-3414. Cleaner. Now it is time to tape my ouside connectors and let this dog sleep.


----------



## Intheswamp

Sounds good. Let'er sleep!


----------



## tylerSC

wylie70 said:


> Intheswamp said:
> 
> 
> 
> @wylie70, thanks for the signal report! I had been wondering how you were doing with all of this. As for understanding all the jargon and what it is...don't worry about it as long as you've attained the desired reception. Enjoy!!! :smile:[/QU
> 
> Thank you for your help, I did one more thing this morning. I removed the VHF addon dipole and was able to remove the 3 db attenuator from before the Cm-7778 amp. Now I am just using the RCA antenna + cm-7778 + cm-3414. Cleaner. Now it is time to tape my ouside connectors and let this dog sleep.
> 
> 
> 
> Glad you got it working. The 7778 is a decent preamp, and the 3414 is also good. But I have had best luck with the Amplify and I like the adjustable gain feature. But seems like the 7778 may have done better at your location, as it can be trial and error.
Click to expand...


----------



## GaitherBill

Finch85 said:


> So I'm a little late updating but I installed my STELLAR LABS  30-2475 antenna a couple weeks back. I'm picking up ABC great now along with a few other channels. I'm hoping that 21-3 Laff channel can get better as I like some of the shows on thay channel. I'll keep tweaking but I have a lot of trees in that 52 deg direction. Thanks again for all of the help!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


I have that very same Stellar Labs antenna in my attic here in Gaithersburg pointed at Baltimore. Works exceptionally well.


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## nathill

GaitherBill said:


> I have that very same Stellar Labs antenna in my attic here in Gaithersburg pointed at Baltimore. Works exceptionally well.



My STELLAR LABS 30-2475 is great.
According to my Sadelco signal level meter and my Samsung smart tv's SNR reading, the 30-2475 outperforms Winegard's top of the line combined UHF/VHF antenna (obviously in the VHF band).


----------



## tylerSC

nathill said:


> My STELLAR LABS 30-2475 is great.
> According to my Sadelco signal level meter and my Samsung smart tv's SNR reading, the 30-2475 outperforms Winegard's top of the line combined UHF/VHF antenna (obviously in the VHF band).


Very good antenna also gets UHF although designed for High VHF.


----------



## steel guitar guy

Although I bought a SL 2476, I don't use the front section, and have removed one element in the reflector, turning into the exact same unit as a 2475.. The reason??.. there was NO difference in performance with the front section and 4th reflector installed, same exact signal strength across the board.. Why deal with the extra wind load and weight when installing? Its a VERY good unit, I get high VHF from Scranton in the 70's into the 80's on the tv signal meter, and no dropouts unless we are in a thunderstorm, and Scranton's transmitters are 75 miles from here through the forested mountains..
When I tried that antenna out on the hilltops around here, it brought in all the all the "local" UHF stations, low power stations, and UHF and VHF translators , as well, from up to 80 miles away., all STRONG!.. Won't do that here at the house though as I am surrounded by hills on 3 sides, hundreds of feet higher than the antenna... In my opinion, its the best deal on an antenna out there...VERY well built! bob


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## holl_ands

tylerSC said:


> Very good antenna also gets UHF although designed for High VHF.


Pictures for Stellar Labs 30-2475 show a Balun BOX, rather than a conventional wide-band Cylindrical Balun....hence I suspect that it contains the more modern PCB Balun (Printed Circuit Board)....like most other modern Antennas. Which would mean that it would have significant Attenuation for UHF Band, with excessive SWR. Sure, SOME UHF Signals MIGHT leak thru, but I would NOT want to rely on it for UHF Band.

When I modeled 30-2475, I did NOT post UHF Performance (cuz it's TERRIBLE, ignoring the additional PCB Balun Attenuation). Although it provides about 4 dBi Forward Gain on Ch14-22, it then rolls off to -5 dBi Forward Gain on Ch36, then rising to a narrowband Peak of +2.5 dBi on Ch46-47. And on Ch19-46 there is greater than 4 dBi Gain, rising to 7.0 dbi on Ch23-24....but with two beams aimed at +/- 45-deg from Forward. So if you WANT to receive UHF, you should use a proper UHF Antenna....


----------



## jspENC

holl ands,


I have the Stellar Labs, and I could get nothing on it for UHF. My balun box got fried from lightning, so I bypassed it with a balun, and still got no UHF signal. I'm not sure how close TylerSC is to a UHF tower, but he must be real close. I am about 20 miles from one. I have taken the antenna down, and am using just one whisker from a VIEWTV 80 mile antenna for my VHF channels, which works nicely at 41 miles out. The Stellar Labs would be needed probably at 50 miles out I would say.


----------



## rabbit73

*New Channel Master Preamp CM7778HD/Amplify+*

Channel Master has come out with yet another preamp using a variation of an original model number:
https://www.channelmaster.com/Amplify_Plus_TV_Antenna_Preamplifier_p/cm-7778hd.htm



















Technical Specifications 

Frequency range 54MHz~88MHz, 174MHz~260MHz, and 470MHz~685MHz 
Gain VHF 23dB (High) / 16dB (Low) 
Gain UHF 26dB (High) / 20dB (Low) 
Gain Combined 23dB (High) / 16dB (Low) 
Noise figure 1.5dB 
Return loss 13dB 
Operating temperature -40 C to +60 C

Maximum input and output are not listed as previously done by the engineers at the original NC plant that was closed down after a Chapter 11 bankruptcy. The Channel Master brand and trademarks are currently owned by a Delaware corporation, PCT International, which markets terrestrial television antennas and digital video recorders, with its headquarters in Mesa, Arizona, and the Channel Master headquarters in Gilbert, AZ.










Well, Channel Master has gone back to putting the connectors on the bottom out of the weather, improved the mast mounting over the 7777HD, eliminated the USB power port, and gone back to separate UHF and VHF inputs. It's looking more like the original popular 7777 and 7778 every day. Time will tell us about the performance.


----------



## JHBrandt

Interesting. The new "Amplify+" *looks* a lot like the original CM-7777 I started with, before they eliminated the separate VHF and UHF inputs. But it has a lower noise figure, and dual gain settings; both improvements. The FM trap isn't switchable, but that's minor.

Maybe they're learning that they had it more or less right to begin with.


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> It's looking more like the original popular 7777 and 7778 every day. Time will tell us about the performance.



Thanks for the heads up! It won't be a long time because I ordered one. I'll run a thorough test on it. If it actually meets its specs and has a decent IP3 then it will be a very good preamp. If not I'll return it. Hopefully it's not just a copy of the RCA preamp.


----------



## ncsercs

Calaveras said:


> Thanks for the heads up! It won't be a long time because I ordered one. I'll run a thorough test on it. If it actually meets its specs and has a decent IP3 then it will be a very good preamp. If not I'll return it. Hopefully it's not just a copy of the RCA preamp.


The price tags on some of those Channel Master products are pretty stiff. Do you guys think it's worth it for what you get?


----------



## Calaveras

ncsercs said:


> The price tags on some of those Channel Master products are pretty stiff. Do you guys think it's worth it for what you get?



If it does everything it claims including meeting its noise figure spec or close to it and it has a good IP3 number (strong signal handling) then I say "Yes." The RCA is the only other preamp with single/dual inputs but it's UHF NF is just average and it VHF NF is below average. It's IP3 on UHF is only +22 dBm which is poor. 

I'll be looking to see what the NF is on low and high gain. I've seen cases where the NF is good at high gain but poor at low gain. 

I'm prepared to be disappointed and hope to be impressed.


----------



## eherberg

I wonder who really makes it? What is the original product Channel Master found and slapped their name on?


----------



## nathill

Calaveras said:


> I'm prepared to be disappointed and hope to be impressed.



My man Jerry Reed said it best, "He who expects nothin', ain't gonna' be deceived!"


----------



## rabbit73

eherberg said:


> I wonder who really makes it? What is the original product Channel Master found and slapped their name on?


Based on their previous models, my guess is that it is an original design, not a rebrand, made in their own factory in Yantai PR of China where they make drop amps.


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> Based on their previous models, my guess is that it is an original design, not a rebrand, made in their own factory in Yantai PR of China where they make drop amps.



Those amps are pretty good. If this new preamp takes after those then we're going to be happy.


----------



## tylerSC

The newest Channel Master 7778 preamp is now the Amplify+. It appears to be a good product based upon the original 7778/7777 preamps, now with adjustable gain control and lower noise figure. Not to be confused with the 2nd version of the 7778 with the single input considered the medium gain amp. The marketing is confusing as they should have used different model numbers for the newer versions.

With that being said, I have found all the drop amps and preamps sold by the new Channel Master company to be good performing products. I have very good performance with the 7777-Amplify, which is now more reasonably priced at $69. And the 3414 distro amp performs well. But I still prefer the original Channel Master antennas made in NC rather than the current Chinese made versions. But the new 7778-Amplify+ appears promising, so I would like to hear reviews.


----------



## lifespeed

Calaveras said:


> I'll be looking to see what the NF is on low and high gain. I've seen cases where the NF is good at high gain but poor at low gain.



This is expected behavior, it takes extra design effort and circuitry to accomplish two gain settings both with low noise figure.


----------



## aaronwt

My dual Square shooter setup is still working great after fourteen years. During that time I've been using a 29dB preamp, after the two antennas are combined. I would have never guessed it would last so long without any issues. I only wish they had better VHF reception. Here in the DC area CBS and ABC switched to VHF back in 2009. So while the ABC station on channel 7 is rock solid from the Square shooters. CBS on channel 9 will sometimes have issues, depending on the level of foilage.


----------



## holl_ands

Bear in mind that Drop Amps are primarily purchased by the Cable Industry....warehouses full of them....which have extensive SPECS....which they ENFORCE through actual product Testing...

OTOH, there are OTA products primarily made for general home DIY'er [and a few Installers]...whom they presume wouldn't know how to understand the all important OVERLOAD & other Specs....well, at least C-M provides SOME Specs, unlike many other Preamp and Antenna companies....


Looking forward to Calaveras Test Results.....


----------



## Calaveras

*Channel Master Amplify+ Review*

I received the preamp in just 2 business days. It looked to be very well built. I opened up the preamp to access the Gain, FM Trap and Input Select switches on the inside. I removed the plastic covering to photograph the circuit board. You can see that it is made by PCT.

Most of the test results were as expected but unfortunately the preamp doesn't meet the claimed Noise Figure of 1.5 dB. I guess I'm not surprised since I have not seen a preamp with a Noise Figure of much less than 2.5 dB if it has any sort of input filtering. The average Noise Figure runs around 3 dB. This preamp appears to be engineered with the repack in mind as performance begins to drop off above channel 36. The preamp can be used up to channel 51 but the LTE filter is really beginning to affect the performance.

I ran the test for 3rd Order Intercept Point. On UHF I measured around +33 dBm which I consider to be pretty good. On VHF IP3 dropped to less than +25 dBm. That's not very good. 

Looking at the circuit board, it appears that the VHF and UHF preamps are actually separate circuits. This explains why it's possible to have such different IP3 numbers on UHF and VHF.

With all the configurations possible with this preamp there are a lot of tests that could be run. I think I ran all the most important ones. All the test images are named so that you can tell what was measured.

Because the Noise Figure doesn't meet its spec, I returned the preamp. It doesn't get me anything beyond what I already have. I was looking for a preamp with a Noise Figure under 2 dB. For a lot of situations this would be a good preamp, especially if you need an FM filter and/or an LTE filter or separate VHF/UHF inputs.


----------



## lifespeed

Calaveras said:


> Most of the test results were as expected but unfortunately the preamp doesn't meet the claimed Noise Figure of 1.5 dB. I guess I'm not surprised since I have not seen a preamp with a Noise Figure of much less than 2.5 dB if it has any sort of input filtering. The average Noise Figure runs around 3 dB.



No surprises here, loss ahead of the preamp increases noise figure 1:1. This is why a configurable VHF/UHF preamp (with diplexer/switch ahead of the amp) can't possibly perform like a dedicated single-band unit. If one is in a situation requiring the absolute lowest noise figure separate UHF and VHF preamps (and separate antennae) should be used. This doesn't describe the situation for most TV viewers, but if you're on the hairy edge you can buy a few dB noise margin by joining bands after the preamps.


----------



## holl_ands

Can you summarize performance numbers for direct compare to your Preamp Summary Table???


----------



## rabbit73

Calaveras said:


> I received the preamp in just 2 business days. It looked to be very well built. I opened up the preamp to access the Gain, FM Trap and Input Select switches on the inside. I removed the plastic covering to photograph the circuit board. You can see that it is made by PCT.


Thank you for the thorough tests of the new CM preamp and the detailed image of the circuit board; I like to see what's inside. Interesting that the board says CM7779HD, but it is marketed as the 7778HD/Amplify+.











> Most of the test results were as expected but unfortunately the preamp doesn't meet the claimed Noise Figure of 1.5 dB. I guess I'm not surprised since I have not seen a preamp with a Noise Figure of much less than 2.5 dB if it has any sort of input filtering. The average Noise Figure runs around 3 dB.


That was probably too much to hope for. I envy your ability to make NF measurements. That is very difficult to do with adequate accuracy. It seems to require a good ENR, which is expensive. I wonder if there is a way to make your own ENR that would be good enough.


> This preamp appears to be engineered with the repack in mind as performance begins to drop off above channel 36. The preamp can be used up to channel 51 but the LTE filter is really beginning to affect the performance.


That must have been a hard marketing choice: go for best NF or protect the general user from LTE pushing down on broadcast TV from the high end of UHF. Adding another switch for LTE filter IN or OUT would have added a complication that might not have made much difference in performance. 


> All the test images are named so that you can tell what was measured.


Very helpful 


> Because the Noise Figure doesn't meet its spec, I returned the preamp. It doesn't get me anything beyond what I already have. I was looking for a preamp with a Noise Figure under 2 dB. For a lot of situations this would be a good preamp, especially if you need an FM filter and/or an LTE filter or separate VHF/UHF input


Good summary; thanks again.

EDIT:

Added two sizes of your new Preamp Summary


----------



## Calaveras

holl_ands said:


> Can you summarize performance numbers for direct compare to your Preamp Summary Table???



See attachment. I also added data for the Winegard LNA-100 and the Kitztech KT-501.


----------



## tylerSC

What does the High/Low switch do on the Amplify+ preamp? Is it adjustable gain?


----------



## rabbit73

tylerSC said:


> What does the High/Low switch do on the Amplify+ preamp? Is it adjustable gain?


Yes










Technical Specifications 

Frequency range 54MHz~88MHz, 174MHz~260MHz, and 470MHz~685MHz 
Gain VHF 23dB (High) / 16dB (Low) 
Gain UHF 26dB (High) / 20dB (Low) 
Gain Combined 23dB (High) / 16dB (Low) 

https://www.channelmaster.com/Amplify_Plus_TV_Antenna_Preamplifier_p/cm-7778hd.htm

Calaveras measured it, presumably in the separate/High Gain mode, as 26 dB UHF, 22.6 dB VHF.











You can see all the gain traces in his post above:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...-related-hardware-topic-575.html#post56313362


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> Calaveras measured it, presumably in the separate/High Gain mode, as 26 dB UHF, 22.6 dB VHF.



Yes, but I also have one display showing the full frequency range using the combined input on High Gain and FM Trap out. The VHF/UHF gain is essentially the same as for the separate inputs.


----------



## JHBrandt

I just noticed that Amazon is now selling the Channel Master CM-3000HD SMARTenna+ for only $52; a considerable discount from the original $89. *Edit:* Got that wrong. As explained to me below, that Amazon listing is for the original SMARTenna, not the SMARTenna+. But this part is still correct: Channel Master has dropped their own price to $69.

It's not the antenna for me - I'm a bit dubious about button-pushing my way to better reception - but it might be just the ticket for someone who needs an indoor antenna, especially if they want a "flat" antenna but have had poor luck with other flat antennas.


----------



## eherberg

JHBrandt said:


> I just noticed that Amazon is now selling the Channel Master CM-3000HD SMARTenna+ for only $52; a considerable discount from the original $89. (Channel Master has dropped their own price to $69.)
> 
> It's not the antenna for me - I'm a bit dubious about button-pushing my way to better reception - but it might be just the ticket for someone who needs an indoor antenna, especially if they want a "flat" antenna but have had poor luck with other flat antennas.


Actually - the Amazon listing is for the Smartenna (CM-3000HD) ... not the Smartenna+ (CM-3001HD)

I don't believe the Smartenna+ is available from Amazon, only from the CM website.

On another note - my completely unqualified, nobody-asked-for opinion is that the 'beam steering' claims of the Smartenna+ are still full of malarky.


----------



## JHBrandt

Thanks for that clarification. Typical of CM to sell two similar-looking antennas with nearly identical names and model numbers, in order to confuse the buyer. Heck, I don't even know what's "smart" about the (original?) SMARTenna!

The $69 one I mentioned is indeed the SMARTenna+, so at least it's come down by $20. It's supposed to incorporate beam-forming electronics, and I have no reason to doubt that such electronics is indeed built in.

The question for me, though, is: how much good does it do in practice? I know CRiggs said it helped his (admittedly worst-case) situation a little, but not a lot. I figure at best, you'd have to get up and start pushing that stupid button whenever you changed channels; not very useful if you're feeding more than one tuner (as with CRiggs's 2-tuner DVR). Still, I figure it's worth mentioning, in case there's someone who needs an indoor "flat" antenna they don't have to re-orient every time they change channels.


----------



## rcodey

I recently learned that I installed the directors in the wrong direction on the 91 XG antenna . How much signal am I losing with the incorrect installation ?


----------



## holl_ands

What do you mean by "Wrong Direction"????
Can you provide a photo or sketch???
And why not simply take it down and FIX it???


----------



## Calaveras

rcodey said:


> I recently learned that I installed the directors in the wrong direction on the 91 XG antenna . How much signal am I losing with the incorrect installation ?





holl_ands said:


> What do you mean by "Wrong Direction"????
> Can you provide a photo or sketch???
> And why not simply take it down and FIX it???



You're supposed to install the directors so that the metal part of each director faces the front of the antenna. It's possible to install them so that the metal part faces the rear of the antenna. It moves all the directors about 3/16" back towards the driven element. I don't know how much it affects the performance. He needs to remove all the directors and flip them around.


----------



## rcodey

holl_ands said:


> What do you mean by "Wrong Direction"????
> Can you provide a photo or sketch???
> And why not simply take it down and FIX it???



Last week I tried to take one off and redirect it . It is not easy . I was trying to see if someone might know how much a difference it would make for signal level . I'm trying to weight risk versus reward .


----------



## holl_ands

I can DO that in the 91XG Antenna Model but I don't have a clue as to what you did.....


----------



## Calaveras

He can correct me if I'm wrong but here's what I think he did. 

Attachment 1 shows the directors in the correct position. Note arrows on plastic points forward.

Attachment 2 shows the front two directors installed backwards. Note arrows plastic points backward.

Installing a director backwards moves that director about 3/16" closer to the driven element.

I don't think it's that hard to remove them and install them correctly.


----------



## holl_ands

So....how much are the Director X-Coordinate Locations CHANGED???? 

Maybe 1/8-in towards the Rear???? Even if 1/4-in, NOT enough to noticeably change performance.


----------



## rcodey

I called Antennas Direct today and was told the wrong direction had little affect on reception . I asked if it would affect reception by less than 1db, 1db or 2db and the person said he didn't know specifically . If as Holl says performance would not be noticeably changed, I'll just leave it . I use the antenna for extreme weak signals from Scranton, Pa. about 95 miles away with mountains between .


----------



## keeper

Hello, since you guys are much more knowledgeable than me about with this stuff I have to ask is the Kitztech 500 or anything else an improvement over the old cm 7775. I live around 50 miles from transmitters and have very good antennas in my attic. A dedicated yagi for uhf and vhf. Get good reception most of the time a few blips here and there. I also have elevation on my side. Use Dish ota module which I know isn’t the greatest. Thanks for any help.


----------



## lifespeed

keeper said:


> Hello, since you guys are much more knowledgeable than me about with this stuff I have to ask is the Kitztech 500 or anything else an improvement over the old cm 7775. I live around 50 miles from transmitters and have very good antennas in my attic. A dedicated yagi for uhf and vhf. Get good reception most of the time a few blips here and there. I also have elevation on my side. Use Dish ota module which I know isn’t the greatest. Thanks for any help.



A good antenna becomes a mediocre antenna once you put it in your attic. Many people who do the attic thing don't truly face an insurmountable obstacle to placing the antenna in a better location, it is usually an aesthetic choice which everybody is free to make. But there are consequences. If this doesn't describe your situation, my apologies.


Attic installation causes multipath, which a better preamp won't really help with. A low noise figure preamp can help with weak, long distance signals close to the noise margin limit, however. You know what to do if you want to improve your reception


----------



## keeper

lifespeed said:


> A good antenna becomes a mediocre antenna once you put it in your attic. Many people who do the attic thing don't truly face an insurmountable obstacle to placing the antenna in a better location, it is usually an aesthetic choice which everybody is free to make. But there are consequences. If this doesn't describe your situation, my apologies.
> 
> 
> Attic installation causes multipath, which a better preamp won't really help with. A low noise figure preamp can help with weak, long distance signals close to the noise margin limit, however. You know what to do if you want to improve your reception


Oh yeah you are correct no doubt. From my location I get really good reception even in the attic. I know I’m losing some signal with my setup but it is what it is. Just looking for tiny improvements because basically that’s all I need. My vhf 11,13 are the channels id like to improve. Could be the nature of vhf vs uhf I don’t really know. Thanks for your help.


----------



## Primestar31

keeper said:


> Oh yeah you are correct no doubt. From my location I get really good reception even in the attic. I know I’m losing some signal with my setup but it is what it is. Just looking for tiny improvements because basically that’s all I need. My vhf 11,13 are the channels id like to improve. Could be the nature of vhf vs uhf I don’t really know. Thanks for your help.



The Kitztech KT-200coax preamp is superior to the KT-500, IMO. The KT-500 has far too much gain for all but maybe 5% of the population, and the noise figure is much higher than stated.


----------



## lifespeed

keeper said:


> Oh yeah you are correct no doubt. From my location I get really good reception even in the attic. I know I’m losing some signal with my setup but it is what it is. Just looking for tiny improvements because basically that’s all I need. My vhf 11,13 are the channels id like to improve. Could be the nature of vhf vs uhf I don’t really know. Thanks for your help.



Preamps, in general, don't address the shortcomings caused by attic installation. However, as we always like to say around here, the only way to know for sure if a change will help your reception is to try it. Too bad these experiments aren't free.


----------



## rabbit73

keeper said:


> Hello, since you guys are much more knowledgeable than me about with this stuff I have to ask is the Kitztech 500 or anything else an improvement over the old cm 7775. I live around 50 miles from transmitters and have very good antennas in my attic. A dedicated yagi for uhf and vhf. Get good reception most of the time a few blips here and there. I also have elevation on my side. Use Dish ota module which I know isn’t the greatest. Thanks for any help.


Hello, keeper

What preamp are you using now? The 7775 is not suitable for 11 and 13, it is a UHF only preamp.

What antennas are you using and how are they connected?

What does your TVFool signal report look like?
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29


as the sticky says:


*NOTE: Put YOUR LOCATION in the TITLE of ALL antenna threads & TVFOOL info in 1st post* 


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...all-antenna-threads-tvfool-info-1st-post.html


----------



## keeper

rabbit73 said:


> Hello, keeper
> 
> What preamp are you using now? The 7775 is not suitable for 11 and 13, it is a UHF only preamp.
> 
> What antennas are you using?
> 
> What does your TVFool signsl report look like?


Oops sorry it is the 7777 older model I believe vhf/uhf. I use a discontinued huge vhf yagi. Can’t remember the name but it is or was known as the best vhf antenna made. Also, have an antennas direct large uhf. These were purchased years ago based on recommendations from probably some of you guys on this thread. I don’t think I can improve what I have now as far as antennas go unless something recently was released. So I’m looking at either a better tuner or preamp. When I looked at my report a few years ago I am on the deep fringe. I have elevation on my side and that is why my ota has been good.


----------



## rabbit73

The original 7777 is hard to beat.


If a low noise figure preamp will help, try the KT200.












Without a TVFool report, we can only give general advice, which is why it is required in the sticky:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...all-antenna-threads-tvfool-info-1st-post.html


I'm not impressed with the DISH OTA tuner.


----------



## rabbit73

Oh, I see a report image now; thanks. Not as good as a link, but better than a guess.


Is 13 WJZ?


What is 11?


----------



## keeper

rabbit73 said:


> Oh, I see a report image now; thanks. Not as good as a link, but better than a guess.
> 
> 
> Is 13 WJZ?
> 
> 
> What is 11?


11 is wbal. Looking back at my previous thread awhile back you provided some good maps for me. I think I will try the kirztexh when I have sometime. Any recommendations on tuners? Looking for one that has a decent diagnostic screen. Doesn’t have to be dvr. Dish ota module is old technology already and their newer dual tuner is even worse.


----------



## rabbit73

> Looking back at my previous thread awhile back you provided some good maps for me.


Ah, yes, I remember now:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/2152921-recommendation-deep-deep-fring-vhf.html

TVFool reports have a lot of errors because they are using a defective database to generate reports.

I see WBAL on a report from rabbitears.info:


----------



## rabbit73

Is your VHF antenna better than this:
http://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2475/fringe-directional-antenna-vhf/dp/48Y8141

or this

http://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2476/fringe-directional-antenna-vhf/dp/71Y5462

What will the tuner be connected to, a TV or a monitor?

I don't know of any separate tuner with a good diagnostic screen. I like the diagnostic screens in the Sony TVs. They give relative signal strength, SNR, and uncorrected errors.

Bad signal with picture freeze, SNR below 15 dB, and uncorrected errors:










Good Signal











The discontinued Channel Master 7003 has a tuner that is as sensitive as the tuner in my Sony TV, but it only has signal quality. The CM7004 claims signal strength and signal quality, but I haven't tested it yet.

I don't see a serious threat to the reception of VHF channels from FM transmitters.

http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/52586117ef/Radar-FM.png


----------



## keeper

rabbit73 said:


> Is your VHF antenna better than this:
> http://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2475/fringe-directional-antenna-vhf/dp/48Y8141
> 
> or this
> 
> http://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2476/fringe-directional-antenna-vhf/dp/71Y5462
> 
> 
> 
> What will the tuner be connected to, a TV or a monitor?
> 
> 
> I don't know of any separate tuner with a good diagnostic screen. I like the diagnostic screens in the Sony TVs. They give relative signal strength, SNR, and uncorrected errors.
> 
> 
> The discontinued Channel Master 7003 has a tuner that is as sensitive as the tuner in my Sony TV, but it only has signal quality. The CM7004 claims signal strength and signal quality, but I haven't tested it yet.


I remember now it’s the largest vhf antenna made by antennacraft. I have a Sony tv with the diagnostic screen. Very useful. Thanks for your help I will look into those tuners. I use my 2007 Sony hd as a monitor for Dish as Dish can send the ota signal to all rooms which is awesome when it worked. Now dish has to fix this option because ota is unwatchable on the Joeys. Guide integration is great too.


----------



## keeper

rabbit73 said:


> Is your VHF antenna better than this:
> http://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2475/fringe-directional-antenna-vhf/dp/48Y8141
> 
> or this
> 
> http://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2476/fringe-directional-antenna-vhf/dp/71Y5462
> 
> What will the tuner be connected to, a TV or a monitor?
> 
> I don't know of any separate tuner with a good diagnostic screen. I like the diagnostic screens in the Sony TVs. They give relative signal strength, SNR, and uncorrected errors.
> 
> Bad signal with picture freeze, SNR below 15 dB, and uncorrected errors:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good Signal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The discontinued Channel Master 7003 has a tuner that is as sensitive as the tuner in my Sony TV, but it only has signal quality. The CM7004 claims signal strength and signal quality, but I haven't tested it yet.
> 
> I don't see a serious threat to the reception of VHF channels from FM transmitters.
> 
> http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/52586117ef/Radar-FM.png


I have the same diagnostic screen on my Sony. All of my ota channels measure around 29-32 snr with the preamp. Fall/winter seems like the best time for ota at my house. In summer I believe I get interference from distant stations. The below pic was taken a few years ago on vhf channel 13. I believe these numbers are excellent and for the most part this channel comes in great but on occasion I do have issues.


----------



## rabbit73

keeper said:


> I have the same diagnostic screen on my Sony.


The diagnostic screens on my Sony TVs are slightly different on different models. Each design team for a model has the freedom to do it the way they want. This encourages innovation, but increases the cost.


> All of my ota channels measure around 29-32 snr with the preamp.


That is very good. 


> Fall/winter seems like the best time for ota at my house. In summer I believe I get interference from distant stations.


That is possible. There could be many causes, like trees in the signal path, temperature inversion, or atmospheric conditions. 


> The below pic was taken a few years ago on vhf channel 13.


Thanks for the screen shot; I like to see them. I have always wondered why they give SNR to the nearest 1/100 of a dB on some models.


> I believe these numbers are excellent and for the most part this channel comes in great but on occasion I do have issues.


They are good, but the signals from Baltimore have a difficult path. The signals are scattered by diffraction at the terrain peaks. It does help that your location has some elevation, but the WJZ tower isn't very tall (a "short stick"), and its directional antenna doesn't send much power in your direction.










Their channel 11 transmitter might have an non-directional antenna at a greater height, possibly sending more power in your direction.
https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?request=items&facid=25455


----------



## keeper

rabbit73 said:


> keeper said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have the same diagnostic screen on my Sony.
> 
> 
> 
> The diagnostic screens on my Sony TVs are slightly different on different models. Each design team for a model has the freedom to do it the way they want. This encourages innovation, but increases the cost.
> 
> 
> 
> All of my ota channels measure around 29-32 snr with the preamp.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is very good.
> 
> 
> 
> Fall/winter seems like the best time for ota at my house. In summer I believe I get interference from distant stations.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is possible. There could be many causes, like trees in the signal path, temperature inversion, or atmospheric conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> The below pic was taken a few years ago on vhf channel 13.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks for the screen shot; I like to see them. I have always wondered why they give SNR to the nearest 1/100 of a dB on some models.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe these numbers are excellent and for the most part this channel comes in great but on occasion I do have issues.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They are good, but the signals from Baltimore have a difficult path. The signals are scattered by diffraction at the terrain peaks. It does help that your location has some elevation, but the WJZ tower isn't very tall (a "short stick"), and its directional antenna doesn't send much power in your direction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Their channel 11 transmitter might have an non-directional antenna at a greater height, possibly sending more power in your direction.
> https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?request=items&facid=25455
Click to expand...

Thanks again for your help I appreciate it. I know what you say to be the case about those stations but for whatever reason I receive a better signal on 13 than 11. My uhf signals from Baltimore are very good. I’m trying to think where that blockage could be. I Always thought I had line of sight.


----------



## rabbit73

You do not have Line of Sight (LOS); you have 2Edge signals because the mountains are in the signal path.

The red line in the diagram is the LOS line; it is obviously blocked by the mountains.


> I know what you say to be the case about those stations but for whatever reason I receive a better signal on 13 than 11.


That's good, but it doesn't matter. The reports are known to be less accurate for 2Edge signals than LOS signals because of limitations in the software. Also, different frequencies are affected in different ways by the terrain interference.

By the time the signals from Baltimore have found their way over and around the mountains, they are what they are. The tuner decides which signal is better.



















Even if the Baltimore signals were LOS to your location, you would still have multipath reflections because your antennas are in the attic.

It will be interesting to see what happens when WJZ moves from 13 to 11, and WBAL moves from 11 to 12.


----------



## keeper

rabbit73 said:


> It will be interesting to see what happens when WJZ moves from 13 to 11, and WBAL moves from 11 to 12.


Yeah probably not in my favor.


----------



## rabbit73

keeper said:


> Yeah probably not in my favor.


That isn't scheduled to happen until Phase 9, 3/14/2020 to 5/1/2020.

https://www.commlawcenter.com/2017/...ion-results-and-sets-tv-repack-deadlines.html

https://www.rabbitears.info/repackc...&state=&mktid=31&owner=&sort=&ph=&lss=&status=


----------



## keeper

rabbit73 said:


> That isn't scheduled to happen until Phase 9, 3/14/2020 to 5/1/2020.
> 
> https://www.commlawcenter.com/2017/...ion-results-and-sets-tv-repack-deadlines.html
> 
> https://www.rabbitears.info/repackc...&state=&mktid=31&owner=&sort=&ph=&lss=&status=


Thanks a lot for the info and time you taken to share those graphs with me. I just have one more request. That terrain graph that shows obstructions that you posted. Where can I find those. They are extremely helpful. I looked around but couldn’t find that exact one. Thanks


----------



## rabbit73

keeper said:


> Thanks a lot for the info and time you taken to share those graphs with me.


You are welcome. I'm glad that you found them helpful. 


> I just have one more request. That terrain graph that shows obstructions that you posted. Where can I find those. They are extremely helpful. I looked around but couldn’t find that exact one. Thanks


You will not find that exact one because I made it just for you with the software at this site:
HeyWhatsThat Path Profiler
http://www.heywhatsthat.com/profiler.html

I have been using that site to make terrain profiles for a long time, but recently my IE browser would lock up when I went to it. I learned that the site owner had made some changes using his Firefox browser, so I downloaded it and am able to make profiles again.

This is the homepage for that site. My IE browser doesn't lock up on that:
https://www.heywhatsthat.com/

There aren't any instructions on how to make a profile there, so I had to learn by trial-and-error. If you have a problem, I would be glad to walk you through an example step-by-step.

You will need to enter the coordinates of the transmitter's antenna and your antenna. You will also need to enter the heights above ground for both antennas for a valid profile.

As a second-best, you can click on a callsign in your TVFool report for a terrain profile.

Your old report link doesn't work anymore because it is no longer on the server:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=8e034b4346b8c1

so I had to make a new report based on my estimate of your location because I didn't know your address or coordinates (sometimes I ask a poster for the coordinates of his antenna in a PM for an accurate profile):
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=90381006ac77e4

clicking on WJZ, I get this profile:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=90381006ac77e4&t=ALLTV&n=12

Not as good as the HeyWhatsThat profile, but still quite useful. Your antenna is at the right end; blue is weak, purple is very weak. It also tells you how much of the transmitted power is reaching your location.

I did this for your old thread in Sept of 2015:











The black arc at the bottom of the profile is the curvature of the earth.


----------



## maxreactance

rabbit73 said:


> The diagnostic screens on my Sony TVs are slightly different on different models. Each design team for a model has the freedom to do it the way they want. This encourages innovation, but increases the cost.
> 
> Thanks for the screen shot; I like to see them. I have always wondered why they give SNR to the nearest 1/100 of a dB on some models.


Yes, but the information provided is pretty much exactly what I have in my Sony TV. The big difference is that the actual information screen is about half the size as my TV and offset to the left not centered, but it looks like accessing the information is the exact same three-menu deep nightmare as in probably all Sony TVs. I can pull up the same information on other TVs/TV devices with a single click of the "Info" button or whatever, but Sony does a really good job of hiding it in a byzantine menu structure that doesn't persist across channel changes... 

It doesn't really look like Sony provides that much "freedom" to design their user interface to product line managers...I'm not sure how much AndroidTV takes over the UI in Sony TVs with built-in AndroidTV (Roku takes over the entire TV UI for TCL-Roku TVs), it might be different, though not necessarily better. 

--
max


----------



## keeper

rabbit73 said:


> You are welcome. I'm glad that you found them helpful.
> You will not find that exact one because I made it just for you with the software at this site:
> HeyWhatsThat Path Profiler
> http://www.heywhatsthat.com/profiler.html
> 
> I have been using that site to make terrain profiles for a long time, but recently my IE browser would lock up when I went to it. I learned that the site owner had made some changes using his Firefox browser, so I downloaded it and am able to make profiles again.
> 
> This is the homepage for that site. My IE browser doesn't lock up on that:
> https://www.heywhatsthat.com/
> 
> There aren't any instructions on how to make a profile there, so I had to learn by trial-and-error. If you have a problem, I would be glad to walk you through an example step-by-step.
> 
> You will need to enter the coordinates of the transmitter's antenna and your antenna. You will also need to enter the heights above ground for both antennas for a valid profile.
> 
> As a second-best, you can click on a callsign in your TVFool report for a terrain profile.
> 
> Your old report link doesn't work anymore because it is no longer on the server:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=8e034b4346b8c1
> 
> so I had to make a new report based on my estimate of your location because I didn't know your address or coordinates (sometimes I ask a poster for the coordinates of his antenna in a PM for an accurate profile):
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=90381006ac77e4
> 
> clicking on WJZ, I get this profile:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=90381006ac77e4&t=ALLTV&n=12
> 
> Not as good as the HeyWhatsThat profile, but still quite useful. Your antenna is at the right end; blue is weak, purple is very weak. It also tells you how much of the transmitted power is reaching your location.
> 
> I did this for your old thread in Sept of 2015:


Thank you.


----------



## rabbit73

maxreactance said:


> Yes, but the information provided is pretty much exactly what I have in my Sony TV. The big difference is that the actual information screen is about half the size as my TV and offset to the left not centered, but it looks like accessing the information is the exact same three-menu deep nightmare as in probably all Sony TVs. I can pull up the same information on other TVs/TV devices with a single click of the "Info" button or whatever, but Sony does a really good job of hiding it in a byzantine menu structure that doesn't persist across channel changes...
> 
> It doesn't really look like Sony provides that much "freedom" to design their user interface to product line managers...I'm not sure how much AndroidTV takes over the UI in Sony TVs with built-in AndroidTV (Roku takes over the entire TV UI for TCL-Roku TVs), it might be different, though not necessarily better.
> 
> --
> max


Yes, Sony hides it way down in the menu. My guess is that they thought the average user would not want to look at it; it would be used mostly by a tech doing troubleshooting. The UI is full-screen in the KDL32R400A. I added the notes at the bottom:










One of the unique features of the signal diagnostics for that particular model is that the wide-range signal strength scale is one dB for each step of the scale, and 100 is equal to -8 dBm. It's as if the design engineer had read the ATSC guidelines for tuner specs. I made a calibration chart using my Sadelco signal level meter. So, when I bought the TV, I got a TV and a signal level meter for the price of a TV.










The engineer must have used an RSSI chip for such a wide range of signal strength. My other Sony TVs have a more narrow range of signal strength, because it is derived from AGC voltage. The operating range of the tuner is much greater than the range of the AGC, as in my first Sony:


----------



## maxreactance

rabbit73 said:


> Yes, Sony hides it way down in the menu. My guess is that they thought the average user would not want to look at it; it would be used mostly by a tech doing troubleshooting. The UI is full-screen in the KDL32R400A. I added the notes at the bottom:
> 
> The engineer must have used an RSSI chip for such a wide range of signal strength. My other Sony TVs have a more narrow range of signal strength, because it is derived from AGC voltage. The operating range of the tuner is much greater than the range of the AGC, as in my first Sony:


A couple questions: 

1. Your TV was showing an SNR of 34dB? I thought you could only get that if you were right across the street from the transmitter, but I'm not an expert on these things, somebody said it once. My TV rarely got much above 28-29 for my best channel, 38 miles from the transmitter, attic antenna. UHF channels seem to have a ceiling of 25dB no matter where they're located (like 12 miles away, but off-beam), so maybe it's frequency-related. 


2. Yeah, my Sony measures signal strength with AGC, as indicated in parentheses after "Signal Strength", then has a separate AGC measurement showing the exact same number! Not really a question maybe, but what's up with that? 

The persistence of the signal strength meter through channel changes (or ease of pulling it up) was a big deal for me trying to set up an antenna in the attic for maximum number of channels. Going up and down to see the results of moving the antenna 1/4 inch is aggravating enough...I remember using a CECB and a little B&W TV on an extension cord in the attic when I was sweating through that nightmare... 

--
max


----------



## keeper

maxreactance said:


> A couple questions:
> 
> 1. Your TV was showing an SNR of 34dB? I thought you could only get that if you were right across the street from the transmitter, but I'm not an expert on these things, somebody said it once. My TV rarely got much above 28-29 for my best channel, 38 miles from the transmitter, attic antenna. UHF channels seem to have a ceiling of 25dB no matter where they're located (like 12 miles away, but off-beam), so maybe it's frequency-related.
> 
> 
> 2. Yeah, my Sony measures signal strength with AGC, as indicated in parentheses after "Signal Strength", then has a separate AGC measurement showing the exact same number! Not really a question maybe, but what's up with that?
> 
> The persistence of the signal strength meter through channel changes (or ease of pulling it up) was a big deal for me trying to set up an antenna in the attic for maximum number of channels. Going up and down to see the results of moving the antenna 1/4 inch is aggravating enough...I remember using a CECB and a little B&W TV on an extension cord in the attic when I was sweating through that nightmare...
> 
> --
> max


I use an app on my iPad and iPhone called presence. It’s free. Put one device facing tv and take the phone up with you. Makes it easier than up and down. Streams video from one device to another.


----------



## keeper

maxreactance said:


> A couple questions:
> 
> 1. Your TV was showing an SNR of 34dB? I thought you could only get that if you were right across the street from the transmitter, but I'm not an expert on these things, somebody said it once. My TV rarely got much above 28-29 for my best channel, 38 miles from the transmitter, attic antenna. UHF channels seem to have a ceiling of 25dB no matter where they're located (like 12 miles away, but off-beam), so maybe it's frequency-related.
> 
> 
> 2. Yeah, my Sony measures signal strength with AGC, as indicated in parentheses after "Signal Strength", then has a separate AGC measurement showing the exact same number! Not really a question maybe, but what's up with that?
> 
> The persistence of the signal strength meter through channel changes (or ease of pulling it up) was a big deal for me trying to set up an antenna in the attic for maximum number of channels. Going up and down to see the results of moving the antenna 1/4 inch is aggravating enough...I remember using a CECB and a little B&W TV on an extension cord in the attic when I was sweating through that nightmare...
> 
> --
> max


Don’t feel bad. My leg went through my ceiling when messing around with the 12 foot antennacraft in the attic. I think my dog was traumatized for weeks.


----------



## rabbit73

maxreactance said:


> A couple questions:
> 
> 1. Your TV was showing an SNR of 34dB? I thought you could only get that if you were right across the street from the transmitter, but I'm not an expert on these things, somebody said it once. My TV rarely got much above 28-29 for my best channel, 38 miles from the transmitter, attic antenna. UHF channels seem to have a ceiling of 25dB no matter where they're located (like 12 miles away, but off-beam), so maybe it's frequency-related.


Yes, that is unusually high for an OTA signal. For a QAM 256 cable signal, TiVo says it should be between 29 and 35 dB.
https://support.tivo.com/articles/T...oamio-Series-Premiere-Series-and-Series3-DVRs

That screen shot was when the TV was connected to an indoor GE antenna on the ground floor, with trees and buildings in the signal path. I DID try to find the best location for the antenna, which was, of course, in the middle of the bedroom in a high traffic area.



















The original SNR is determined at the transmitter. IIRC, the FCC expects the transmitted signal to have an SNR of at least 27 dB. I have often wondered how the TV can measure noise on the channel to calculate the SNR if the signal is present in the channel. Perhaps the TV use the MER (Modulation Error Ratio) from the demodulator to derive the SNR.

The way I measure SNR, without a TV, is to use a signal level meter to measure the strength of the signal, and then the noise in a vacant adjacent channel:










So, now you have me curious about the SNR of my signals as shown on the Sony; I'll have to make some more measurements


> 2. Yeah, my Sony measures signal strength with AGC, as indicated in parentheses after "Signal Strength", then has a separate AGC measurement showing the exact same number! Not really a question maybe, but what's up with that?


They are the same because the SNR is derived from the AGC. 


> The persistence of the signal strength meter through channel changes (or ease of pulling it up) was a big deal for me trying to set up an antenna in the attic for maximum number of channels. Going up and down to see the results of moving the antenna 1/4 inch is aggravating enough...I remember using a CECB and a little B&W TV on an extension cord in the attic when I was sweating through that nightmare...


Small changes in antenna aim or location are caused by multipath signals, not unusual indoors, in an attic, or with trees in front of the antenna. After the transition from analog to digital, my favorite diagnostic tool was the Apex DT502 converter box. It had two signal bars, one for signal quality, the other for signal strength.


----------



## maxreactance

keeper said:


> Don’t feel bad. My leg went through my ceiling when messing around with the 12 foot antennacraft in the attic. I think my dog was traumatized for weeks.


What we do to watch reruns of "Leave It To Beaver"! (for free) 

I originally had the proverbial "big" antenna when I started watching digital TV. I was surprised when all of a sudden I had over 100 channels when I only had 26 before. 

Then the seasons changed and the wind began to blow, and I began my journey to find the ideal antenna for my attic situation. Ultimately I wound up with a small homemade antenna which gave me the most channels with the most reliability in all seasons, but it clearly was the fact that the "small" antenna could be located differently than the big antenna (and all the other antennas I tried, and I own and have used many different antennas). 

The strange thing about the "big" antenna (a large LPDA with a Yagi/corner reflector), which was a very good antenna, was that with analog and digital it picked up a few channels 70-80 miles due south on the other side of a mountain range...but my antenna was pointed due north (I don't know what the purported "front-back ratio" was). I never saw those channels again after changing antennas, but that may be because they moved to UHF which could not make it over the hill. 

--
max


----------



## Calaveras

maxreactance said:


> A couple questions:
> 
> 1. Your TV was showing an SNR of 34dB? I thought you could only get that if you were right across the street from the transmitter, but I'm not an expert on these things, somebody said it once. My TV rarely got much above 28-29 for my best channel, 38 miles from the transmitter, attic antenna. UHF channels seem to have a ceiling of 25dB no matter where they're located (like 12 miles away, but off-beam), so maybe it's frequency-related.



The primary limiting factor for high SNRs is multipath. You're in the Bay Area where it is essentially impossible to get very high SNRs because of all the reflections. This is a case where a very directional antenna will improve the SNR even if you don't need high antenna gain.

The real limiting SNR factor is the SNR of the transmitter. Some transmitters may not make 34 dB. I've heard that some of the newest transmitters can make the 40's.

None of my local stations make 34 dB on my Sony. One makes 31 dB and the others are in the mid to upper 20's. The only stations I've ever seen make 34 dB is KSBW RF 8 Salinas at 115 miles and KION RF 32 Monterey at 132 miles when conditions are good. They're very distant but the multipath is very low on this path.


----------



## fred2

Seattle, WA, a bit north of downtown.

For quite a while I had reasonable OTA reception on my Tivo setup to my tv. Then I had pixelation on the NBC affiliate and then another channel and now the PBS station. I have an external antenna but it does not reach above the roofline but is between the house and the downtown area. Frankly, since I had reasonable reception, I'm not really looking for any elaborate mechanical or rotating system. I'm just looking for a modicum of decent viewing!

I wonder if anyone has suggestions on what to look for that might be causing this reception breakup. Some channels remain flawless and even the "bad" channels tune in fine other times but less often.

Or any suggestions on how to find a reliable installer.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## rabbit73

Hello, fred2

To make a good analysis of your reception problem we would need a TVFool signal report and some details about your system. To make an even better analysis we would need to see a satellite view of your location to know where the signal lines are. You would need to give the coordinates of your antenna in a PM.

All we have now is


> I have an external antenna but it does not reach above the roofline but is between the house and the downtown area.


which might be the cause of the problem.


----------



## fred2

rabbit73 said:


> Hello, fred2
> 
> To make a good analysis of your reception problem we would need a TVFool signal report and some details about your system. To make an even better analysis we would need to see a satellite view of your location to know where the signal lines are. You would need to give the coordinates of your antenna in a PM.
> 
> All we have now iswhich might be the cause of the problem.


Thanks for the reply. I will try getting the info. Who would I address the PM to?


----------



## rabbit73

To the current moderator DrDon, or me.


But, I would need the coordinates of your antenna to see the signal lines in a satellite view.


----------



## PCTools

Actually, on my Sony Bravia XBR-HX929 model I have a signal of 34dB displayed on my so-called local station. This is WTVG, Channel 13 which is 58 miles away.

However, I am using the Channel Master Quantum 1110 and the vintage Channel Mastet CM-7777 at 48 ft in the air.

I own all Sony XBR televisions. They make superior tuners over the competition.



Calaveras said:


> The primary limiting factor for high SNRs is multipath. You're in the Bay Area where it is essentially impossible to get very high SNRs because of all the reflections. This is a case where a very directional antenna will improve the SNR even if you don't need high antenna gain.
> 
> The real limiting SNR factor is the SNR of the transmitter. Some transmitters may not make 34 dB. I've heard that some of the newest transmitters can make the 40's.
> 
> None of my local stations make 34 dB on my Sony. One makes 31 dB and the others are in the mid to upper 20's. The only stations I've ever seen make 34 dB is KSBW RF 8 Salinas at 115 miles and KION RF 32 Monterey at 132 miles when conditions are good. They're very distant but the multipath is very low on this path.


----------



## PCTools

I would like to thank Calaveras for the review and fact finding of the "new" Channel Master Pre-Amp.

I still have my emergency stack of preamps packed with Silica Gel Desiccant in a controlled room.


----------



## maxreactance

*Antennas Direct ClearStream MAX antennas*

I was wondering if these new "MAX" antennas are any better than the old ClearStream antennas they replace. 

I have one of the old antennas, it has a reflector screen behind the UHF double-loop element, the new ones apparently don't, although they may be using the support structure for the VHF/UHF elements as a reflector, but it doesn't resemble any reflector I've ever seen. 

Just wondering if there is any information out there about improvements in gain in the UHF/hi-VHF ranges, other differences in performance compared to the old antennas. 

--
max


----------



## jkeldo

maxreactance said:


> I was wondering if these new "MAX" antennas are any better than the old ClearStream antennas they replace.
> 
> I have one of the old antennas, it has a reflector screen behind the UHF double-loop element, the new ones apparently don't, although they may be using the support structure for the VHF/UHF elements as a reflector, but it doesn't resemble any reflector I've ever seen.
> 
> Just wondering if there is any information out there about improvements in gain in the UHF/hi-VHF ranges, other differences in performance compared to the old antennas.
> 
> --
> max


I had inquired about these new models some time back and there were a couple of responses regarding them found here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...-related-hardware-topic-565.html#post55652364

I think the old model with the reflectors will work better if you have a really weak signal and I still use that one.


----------



## rabbit73

maxreactance said:


> 1. Your TV was showing an SNR of 34dB? I thought you could only get that if you were right across the street from the transmitter, but I'm not an expert on these things, somebody said it once. My TV rarely got much above 28-29 for my best channel, 38 miles from the transmitter, attic antenna. UHF channels seem to have a ceiling of 25dB no matter where they're located (like 12 miles away, but off-beam), so maybe it's frequency-related.


I made some more SNR measurements with my Sony KDL32R400A. This time, the best channel was 40, not 16. I was still using an indoor antenna on the ground floor with trees and buildings in the signal path.










The SNR measured 31 dB most of the time; once in a while it would jump up to 34 for a moment, and then drop back down to 31.

The rest of my signals had SNRs between 20 and 30, with a few below 20 dB.

I also tried my Sony KDL32BX320. Its signal strength scale is derived from the AGC, so it doesn't have the wide range that the 32R400A has. The 32BX320 SNR was 29 dB for channel 40 under the same conditions.










I measured the SNR with the 32R400A without a preamp, with an RCA TVPRAMP1R preamp, and with a Kitztech KT-200 preamp. The SNR stayed the same because the noise floor was well below the signal. The system noise figure was improved with the preamps, but it didn't matter with such a strong signal; it would make a difference with a weak marginal signal.

I used my Sadelco DisplayMax 800 signal level meter in the single channel scan mode to measure the channel 40 signal, and then the noise floor in vacant channel 41. It was necessary to add a preamp before the meter to increase its sensitivity; its lower limit is -20 dBmV (-69 dBm) in the single channel scan mode. It will measure down to -35 dBmV (-84 dBm) in the single frequency mode at center channel, but there is no correction added for a digital signal in that mode.

Channel 40 with DB2e antenna and RCA TVPRAMP1R preamp
+33.1 dBmV - 17 dB meter amp = +16.1 dBmV = -32.7 dBm to tuner

Channel 41 (vacant) with DB2e antenna and RCA TVPRAMP1R preamp
-12.3 dBmV - 17 dB meter amp = -29.3 dBmV = -78.1 dBm

The noise measurement on vacant channel 39 was similar.

The channel 40 signal was 78.1 - 32.7 = 45.5 dB above the noise [-32.7 - (-78.1) = 45.5 for the purists]

As you can see, the signal was well above the noise, so the SNR was determined by the SNR of the transmitted signal, modified by multipath on its trip to my antenna.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

> Just wondering if there is any information out there about improvements in gain in the UHF/hi-VHF ranges, other differences in performance compared to the old antennas.


The new antennas make the reflectors optional and they can be purchased separately if you need them. I'd suspect that there is only minimal difference in performance between the "old" and "new versions when both are configured the same.


----------



## maxreactance

ProjectSHO89 said:


> The new antennas make the reflectors optional and they can be purchased separately if you need them. I'd suspect that there is only minimal difference in performance between the "old" and "new versions when both are configured the same.


Yes, a little actual research on my part revealed that they claim the reflector adds 1.5dB of gain, so without the reflector you're losing a little somewhere in some situations. 

In the old posts referenced here, somebody pointed out that you could possibly aim the Hi-VHF dipole separately from the UHF double-loop. I have done that, with several different antenna configurations (such as a 4-bay bowtie and a set of rabbit ears). For my situation, with the beamwidth of those types of UHF antennas, I found that mounting the VHF dipole as high as possible (and always higher than the UHF) with slightly different aiming gave me optimal reception (gain, SNR) over the range of all the channels I could possibly receive. 

The new ClearStream antennas don't allow that kind of hack, so even with the optional reflector I'd be down a few channels with it. I do understand they wanted to simplify the construction of the antenna for the consumer, and I believe that both old and new antennas are pretty good for what they are designed to do. 

But for me, the optimal setup was home-made. 

--
max


----------



## Intheswamp

I'm using one of the AD VHF-Kit dipoles. It is mounted above a 4-bay Antennacraft and below a DB8e and set for a different beam direction than the bay antennas. It's working pretty good in that mounting location.

I "think" that 1.5dB means something like a 20-25 percent signal difference. In a marginal reception area it makes a difference. 

I've got a 2MAX mounted at my daughter's house. Not the best location, but she is managing to pull in solid signals from 40 and 50 miles. A reflector does two things...reflects back a bit of signal to the driven elements and blocks signals from the "back" of the antenna. Doing both of these things can enhance the signal coming from the "front" of the antenna. In my daughter's situation it might help some, but stations from the backside are very distant and most likely making an impact on reception. But, reflecting a small bit of signal back to the driven elements could improve reception some. There is also a generic 2-bay bowtie positioned 90-degrees to the 2MAX and mounted flat against the side of the house...this is for a distant ABC station. Both of these antennas feed into a dual-port CM7777 preamp and feed three televisions with a couple of them having a fairly long coax run. The Clearstream MAX seem to be a good line of antennas. I've yet had the opportunity to check out a 4MAX but I would think it would work well, too. The beam-width of the 2MAX is a reason I went with it (thanks to some prompting from some of the guys here on the forum!) and it has worked well. The 4MAX would have been more directional and might not have worked as well for my daughter's scattered stations.

Home-made is good. I've always enjoyed tinkering with antennas but nothing to the degree that some of the guys do! My crowning glory was a ham radio 40-meter full-wave "speaker-wire" loop matched with a piece of 75ohm coax cable. Imagine an antenna as tall and wide as a large pecan tree. It put out quiet the signal...pushing a whopping 1.5 watts of QRP power!!!!!


----------



## HerbieHightower

I think I need some help. My head is spinning. I live about 25 miles east of St Paul, MN and I'm wanting to be done with Comcast TV bundles so I'm looking at using an antenna for TV. I'm in a home with a pretty flat line to St Paul with no hills really in the way. I would have no problem with a 4-6ft pole on my roof to mount something. I don't want something huge and gaudy. TV Fool gave me this: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=90389fa1426eeb
Being this close to the Twin Cities I thought it would be better. Can someone recommend an antenna that will work good for this location? Would I need an amp?

I plan to use streaming for the most part but wanted the local stations too.
Thanks for the advice!


----------



## HerbieHightower

One more thing. What does co-channel warning and adjacent channel warning mean exactly? It looks like there are a lot of these in my area.


----------



## Intheswamp

HerbieHightower said:


> One more thing. What does co-channel warning and adjacent channel warning mean exactly? It looks like there are a lot of these in my area.


Co-channel...a channel within a possible interfering distance range that is on the same frequency as your primary channel.
Adjacent-channel...a channel that resides on the next frequency window either above or below the frequency of your primary channel.

...or, something like that.


----------



## rabbit73

HerbieHightower said:


> I'm looking at using an antenna for TV. I would have no problem with a 4-6ft pole on my roof to mount something. I don't want something huge and gaudy. TV Fool gave me this: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=90389fa1426eeb


Hello, Herbie; thanks for the signal report. Your signals are strong, so a small antenna for UHF and VHF-High should work if there are no trees or buildings in the signal path from 288 degrees.

I suggest one of these:
Antennas Direct C2V
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/ClearStream-C2-VHF-Long-Range-Combo-Complete.html

Antenna Direct C2MAX with accessory reflector
RCA ANT751 (wear gloves when you unfold the elements, they are sharp and covered with oil)
GE 29884 (assembly required)
https://www.walmart.com/ip/GE-Pro-Outdoor-Attic-Mount-Antenna-29884/557144300





















> Would I need an amp?


Probably not.

Intheswamp gave a good explanation for co-channel and adjacent channel interference. I doubt that you will need any of the channels with those warnings. See the TVFool FAQ for more details, about half way down the page:
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=57


If the antenna is outside, the coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety and to reject interference. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge which will tend to discourage a strike, but the system will not survive a direct strike.


----------



## HerbieHightower

rabbit73 said:


> Hello, Herbie; thanks for the signal report. Your signals are strong, so a small antenna for UHF and VHF-High should work if there are no trees or buildings in the signal path from 288 degrees.
> 
> I suggest one of these:
> Antennas Direct C2V
> Antenna Direct C2MAX with accessory reflector
> RCA ANT751 (wear gloves when you unfold the elements, they are sharp and covered with oil)
> GE 29884 (assembly required)
> Probably not.
> 
> Intheswamp gave a good explanation for co-channel and adjacent channel interference. I doubt that you will need any of the channel that have those warnings. See the TVFool FAQ for more details, about half way down the page:
> http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=57



Thank you very much! Not much of this makes sense to me (LOL I'm an old man now) so this clears quite a bit up.


----------



## rabbit73

> (LOL I'm an old man now) so this clears quite a bit up.


Me, too; I'm 85 and still learning.


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## mattdp

Menards carries the RCA ANT-751 kit (with the J-Pole mount). That would work if you don't have a lot of trees in the direction of the IDS tower. Otherwise I might recommend a 3ft tripod (also Menards), 5ft antenna pole or 10ft 1 1/4" EMT and a combination of a Newark.com 30-2475 VHF antenna + 30-2370 UHF antenna, combined with a UVSJ joiner.

FWIW, we have our own reception thread with a wealth of info on the latest happenings, repack changes etc.


----------



## matonanjin

rabbit73 said:


> If the antenna is outside, the coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety and to reject interference. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge which will tend to discourage a strike,* but the system will not survive a direct strike. *


 So probably a question that I should intuitively know the answer to. But if I install an outdoor antenna (or two) should I unplug my system from it during electrical storms? The grounding of the stuff outside is not, I assume, sufficient to prevent frying of my stuff from a direct hit.
I am especially sensitive to this since I just replaced a TV, my modem, my router and a Blu ray player. I need to unplug my internet connection during a storm but didn't get to it in time last week.
Btw, also an old guy here. Not as old as rabbit73, but will hit 7-0 next week


----------



## rabbit73

matonanjin said:


> So probably a question that I should intuitively know the answer to. But if I install an outdoor antenna (or two) should I unplug my system from it during electrical storms? The grounding of the stuff outside is not, I assume, sufficient to prevent frying of my stuff from a direct hit.
> I am especially sensitive to this since I just replaced a TV, my modem, my router and a Blu ray player. I need to unplug my internet connection during a storm but didn't get to it in time last week.
> Btw, also an old guy here. Not as old as rabbit73, but will hit 7-0 next week


You have it figured out right. For the best protection, disconnect the antenna from the equipment and pull out the AC power plug.

Where we used to live, we had a close strike; little difference in time between the flash and the thunder. My desktop computer was off, the switch on the surge suppressor strip was off, but its plug was still in the wall. The computer got fried.

There was a 20" Sony TV, with a CRT picture tube, in the living room that was on. It survived the strike, but the colors on the screen were weird, because the shadow mask had become magnetized from the EMP of the strike. I turned the set off, and then when I turned it on again I heard the normal "thunk" of the degausser; the colors were OK.

At our present location, the TVs are on cable or an indoor antenna. They have a surge suppressor power strip that has protected them so far.

My computer is a laptop, with its AC adapter connected to a surge suppressor power strip. If I hear thunder, I turn off the power strip, unplug it, and the computer runs on its internal battery. Before I go to bed at night, I check the weather, and unplug the power strip if necessary.


----------



## HerbieHightower

rabbit73 said:


> Me, too; I'm 85 and still learning.


 By the way, my house is just like the picture. Electric meter and grounding rod so I can just follow that diagram. 10ga copper wire will do all the grounding including the mast? Solid or stranded? 



So is there any way to really protect against storms? Here we have storms all spring, summer and fall. Seems like every week right now.


----------



## rabbit73

HerbieHightower said:


> By the way, my house is just like the picture. Electric meter and grounding rod so I can just follow that diagram. 10ga copper wire will do all the grounding including the mast? Solid or stranded?


Yes, 10 ga for the mast to house ground and 10 ga for the coax grounding block to house ground; solid (usually) or stranded. Do not disconnect the house ground wire from its grounding rod, even for a moment; use 2 split bolts.




















The latest device is a IBTB, which has a lay-in clamp for the house grounding wire so that it doesn't have to be disconnected, which would be a safety hazard.






















> So is there any way to really protect against storms? Here we have storms all spring, summer and fall. Seems like every week right now.


There is no 100% safe way with Mother Nature, even if you had a lightning protection system installed. You could try an antenna in the attic before going outside.


----------



## holl_ands

See my fol. extended discussion on what you CAN DO to protect your electronics from Static electricity build-up.....a real and present danger, knowing full well that there is NOTHING that will protect you from a Direct Strike....except disconnect ALL wires with sufficient "GAP" distance to prevent lightning from jumping that Gap:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/186...gh-attic-antenna-side-side-2.html#post1463911

Adding [usually more than just one] Lightning Rods to your Roof MAY or may NOT help, by offering additional "targets" for Direct Lightning Hits. Ideally you could erect say four TALL Lightning Rods around the edges of the roof...even better if you can erect Towers (or tall trees) with Lightning Rod Systems....a bit further AWAY from your house:
http://stormhighway.com/protection.php


----------



## Intheswamp

HerbieHightower said:


> I think I need some help. My head is spinning. I live about 25 miles east of St Paul, MN and I'm wanting to be done with Comcast TV bundles so I'm looking at using an antenna for TV. I'm in a home with a pretty flat line to St Paul with no hills really in the way. I would have no problem with a 4-6ft pole on my roof to mount something. I don't want something huge and gaudy. TV Fool gave me this: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=90389fa1426eeb
> Being this close to the Twin Cities I thought it would be better. Can someone recommend an antenna that will work good for this location? Would I need an amp?
> 
> I plan to use streaming for the most part but wanted the local stations too.
> Thanks for the advice!


I saw a recommendation for an Antennas Direct C2MAX and I second that recommendation. I installed one of these at my daughter's house who lives "in the boonies". The "gotta have" station for her was 40 miles away. The terrain is some hills and lots of forest between her house and the transmitting tower. The C2MAX does a very good job. It is smallish and has a pleasing(?) appearance. Depending on your coax length a mast-top pre-amp might be a good consideration. I installed an older CM7777 (strong amp) with the C2MAX...there are three coax runs that split outside close to the antenna which inserts a bit of loss to the system...the pre-amp overcomes those losses.

Walmart or HD or Lowes all want $70 or so for the antenna. I bought mine off of eBay for about half that amount. Just be sure that all included parts come with the one from eBay...most do. Mine was listed as an "open box" item...looked new to me.


----------



## ncsercs

Winegard LNA-200 question.....

Will *anything* be gained by wrapping *aluminum foil* around the inside of it (taping it first to avoid any shorts).

Thanks!


----------



## ncsercs

Clearstream C2 antenna question.....

Using this antenna indoors (no choice).

Are there any simple modifications I can make to the reflector to help with multipath?

Thanks!


----------



## rabbit73

ncsercs said:


> Winegard LNA-200 question.....
> 
> Will *anything* be gained by wrapping *aluminum foil* around the inside of it (taping it first to avoid any shorts).
> 
> Thanks!


The LNA-200 has no shielding around the circuit board, so it isn't protected from the ingress of strong local RF interference. If you have no strong local RF interference, then there is no advantage to adding shielding around the board or the enclosure.

Examples of possible interference:
Strong local FM or other service transmitters causing interference to the reception of weak VHF-High channels
Strong local UHF transmitters causing interference to the reception of weak UHF channels. This is common in Canada when trying to receive weak US channels
Strong local electrical interference from LED lamps, switchmode power adapters (SMPS), battery chargers, etc

Of course, grounding the coax with a grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground should be the first thing done, otherwise interference can get directly into the TV cabinet. I recall a case in Canada where a very strong VHF-High channel got into the TV causing interference to the reception of a very weak VHF-High channel even with more than 50 dB of attenuation in the coax. Grounding the coax reduced the interference.


----------



## rabbit73

ncsercs said:


> Clearstream C2 antenna question.....
> 
> Using this antenna indoors (no choice).
> 
> Are there any simple modifications I can make to the reflector to help with multipath?
> 
> Thanks!


Yes, multipath interference is common indoors, especially with VHF-High channels using a dipole or folded dipole without a reflector. But, since I don't see the dipole of the C2V, I am assuming you mean UHF multipath interference. My avatar to the left shows a scan of Channel 13 that was strong enough to be received, but wasn't decoded by the tuner because of multipath reflection errors. I was able to receive 13 when I added a reflector to the folded dipole. I was also able to receive 13 when I moved the antenna to a better location in the room, even without the reflector.

The C2 already has a reflector which rejects multipath reflections from the rear. If that reflector isn't sufficient to reject multipath reflections from the front of the antenna, there are three things you can try:
1. Try different locations for the antenna
2. Try a different tuner; some are better at handling multipath
3. Put the antenna in a shielded enclosure that only allows signals directly in front of the antenna to enter

Trip in VA found it necessary to put his indoor antenna inside a trash can to receive strong local channels:



















other examples


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## ncsercs

rabbit73 said:


> The LNA-200 has no shielding around the circuit board, so it isn't protected from the ingress of strong local RF interference. If you have no strong local RF interference, then there is no advantage to adding shielding around the board or the enclosure.


SNR improved by around 1-2dB on several channels 

Every little bit helps.


----------



## ncsercs

Would coating the C2 reflector in aluminum foil do anything?


----------



## rabbit73

ncsercs said:


> Would coating the C2 reflector in aluminum foil do anything?


It would improve the F/B and F/R ratios, but it might not be sufficient to improve the multipath problem. A test would be necessary.


----------



## ADTech

ncsercs said:


> Would coating the C2 reflector in aluminum foil do anything?


 Very little, if anything.




> Are there any simple modifications I can make to the reflector to help with multipath?


Simple? No. You could try making it infinitely larger, but that would take some doing.


Multipath is only one of the possible issues with indoor reception. Usually it's some combination of that plus the signals having gone through the equivalent of a shredder. Think of the classic nursery rhyme about Humpty Dumpty and the aftermath of his fall.


----------



## rabbit73

ADTech said:


> Multipath is only one of the possible issues with indoor reception. Usually it's some combination of that plus the signals having gone through the equivalent of a shredder. Think of the classic nursery rhyme about Humpty Dumpty and the aftermath of his fall.


.....And even a good tuner can't put the signal back together again.

If you don't want to put the antenna in an enclosure, you could try a panel on each side of the reflector extending it to the front, using aluminum screening, 1/4" square hardware cloth, or aluminum foil on cardboard.


----------



## jkeldo

Intheswamp said:


> I saw a recommendation for an Antennas Direct C2MAX and I second that recommendation. I installed one of these at my daughter's house who lives "in the boonies". The "gotta have" station for her was 40 miles away. The terrain is some hills and lots of forest between her house and the transmitting tower. The C2MAX does a very good job. It is smallish and has a pleasing(?) appearance. Depending on your coax length a mast-top pre-amp might be a good consideration. I installed an older CM7777 (strong amp) with the C2MAX...there are three coax runs that split outside close to the antenna which inserts a bit of loss to the system...the pre-amp overcomes those losses.
> 
> Walmart or HD or Lowes all want $70 or so for the antenna. I bought mine off of eBay for about half that amount. Just be sure that all included parts come with the one from eBay...most do. Mine was listed as an "open box" item...looked new to me.


In the August 2018 issue of Consumer Reports, they have an article on cord cutting options and they also tested some indoor antennas at ten different locations and averaged how many stations were received and the Clearstream 2 Max came in third behind the Mohu Releaf 1 and the Winegard FlatWave FL5500A. While I believe the Clearstream is the better choice here and the antennas were only two or three percent apart, this is an article that many people will read and base their choice on. I have a Clearstream 4 (the older one with a reflector) and I know it is very directional while the newer ones don't have the reflector and I assume are more omnidirectional. There is a video on the CR site that discusses the testing:

https://www.consumerreports.org/antennas/hdtv-antenna-reviews-indoor-tv-antennas/

The part about the windows is interesting as so many newer windows can actually cause reception issues.


----------



## eherberg

jkeldo said:


> The part about the windows is interesting as so many newer windows can actually cause reception issues.


Yeah -- my place is in a very remote area in the far north right next to the Canadian border. The windows in the place are the newer double-paned windows. Although really great for the sub-zero temps in the winter -- they are definitely not conducive to indoor antennas. Not an ounce of signal passes through when one of those silly, flat antennas is placed in the window - whereas when placed on either side against the wall, the one local station that is receivable with an indoor antenna can be picked up.


----------



## holl_ands

*ncsercs:* To combat Multipath, you need a Higher Gain Antenna with a Narrower Beamwidth, which suppresses not only signals from the REAR, but also signals bouncing in from the sides. A-D C2 is a Low Gain, Very Wide Beamwidth Antenna....the exact opposite of what you need. And of course, you should try Location, Location, Location.....

The "Silver Sensor" type Antenna you tried earlier is the Type of Antenna you need....but it came with a [Detachable, Adjustable] Amplifier, which I suspect was causing serious Intermodulation Distortion, blocking reception on many of your Channels. Your signal strengths are VERY Strong and you do NOT "Need" any Amplification [unless driving more than two Tuners...in which case, you MAY need to use separate Antennas]:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-l...n/815397-chicago-il-ota-428.html#post56401190
PS: Presumably your TVFool Results have NOT changed since last month.

You should try the "Silver Sensor" type Antenna WITHOUT the Detachable Preamp, trying different Locations and Reception Angles....and also try other Antennas WITHOUT the LNA-100....and let us know. I am also curious as to whether any of your existing UHF Antennas also receive CBS Network on either Ch12 in Hi-VHF Band and/or Ch32 in UHF Band ["Silver Sensor" type did BOTH]. Note that if you get CBS on Ch32, then you do NOT need an Antenna with Hi-VHF Band Coverage [although many UHF Antennas will get Strong Ch12 anyway].


----------



## rabbit73

eherberg said:


> Yeah -- my place is in a very remote area in the far north right next to the Canadian border. The windows in the place are the newer double-paned windows. Although really great for the sub-zero temps in the winter -- they are definitely not conducive to indoor antennas. Not an ounce of signal passes through when one of those silly, flat antennas is placed in the window - whereas when placed on either side against the wall, the one local station that is receivable with an indoor antenna can be picked up.


The windows that block TV signals will also block cell phone signals. They use Low-E glass which has a metallic coating that is visually transparent but acts as a thermal barrier. There is a new coating that doesn't block RF as much.

It's not that they are double-paned, it's that the glass has the Low-E coating; you can have double-paned windows that have ordinary glass without the coating.


case history:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/1064806-window-blocking-my-antenna.html


----------



## holl_ands

4nec2 Analysis of A-D C2 shows that it has impressive suppress of Multipath coming from the REAR: MINIMUM F/B Ratio is 14.9 dB at 470 MHz (Ch14), rapidly rising to more than 20 dB for most of the current UHF Band (470-698 MHz). Adding Alum. Foil will only provide minor "improvement". However note that the Extremely Wide Beamwidth [70-deg] is allowing LOTS of Multipath to come in from FORWARD Angles away from the MAX Gain Direction:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/hivhfuhftaperedloopc2v

And "Silver Sensor" type Antenna is MUCH WORSE:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/zigzaglpa/uhflpda/uhf7ellpdaterkhdtvi

I don't know of any Commercial, SMALL, Indoor Antennas with significantly better performance....except some DIY OPTIMIZED Antennas, such as fol. Hourglass-Loop with 11 Reflector Rods....Min F/B Ratio = 19.4 dB...with slightly narrower Beamwidth of 60-deg:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/uhfhourglassloop
And the fol. FFDLA (the second example) provides Min F/B Ratio = 24.5 dB, but Beamwidth is still about 60-deg, so no improvement in that aspect:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/zigzaglpa/uhflpda/uhf7elflatlpdaopt

To suppress Multipath coming in from FORWARD Angles requires a HIGH GAIN Antenna [i.e. BIG, OUTDOOR or ATTIC] which has much narrower Beamwidth, such as 8-Bay Bowtie or a LONG Yagi.....


----------



## JHBrandt

ncsercs said:


> SNR improved by around 1-2dB on several channels
> 
> Every little bit helps.


It's common to have various sources of RFI around the home: light dimmers, LED lighting (although most LED light bulbs are fine, occasionally I get a "stinker"), etc. If you have any such RFI sources, shielding your amp is likely to help. (But make sure not to cover any ventilation slots - you don't want to burn your amp up!)


----------



## rabbit73

holl_ands said:


> However note that the Extremely Wide Beamwidth [70-deg] is allowing LOTS of Multipath to come in from FORWARD Angles away from the MAX Gain Direction:
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/hivhfuhftaperedloopc2v


Correct


> I don't know of any Commercial, SMALL, Indoor Antennas with significantly better performance....


How about the DB2e if VHF-High isn't needed, or the GE34792 and GE29884 if VHF-High is needed? The GE UHF Yagi with curved reflector gives surprisingly good performance in a small size.


> To suppress Multipath coming in from FORWARD Angles requires a HIGH GAIN Antenna [i.e. BIG, OUTDOOR or ATTIC] which has much narrower Beamwidth, such as 8-Bay Bowtie or a LONG Yagi.....


Correct, but forward angle multipath can also be suppressed with a shield or an open front enclosure.


----------



## sirius00

*stopping the ota antenna from moving on the mast*



rabbit73 said:


> Me, too; I'm 85 and still learning.


I replaced my Antop Smartpass Panel antenna with a Channel Master 100 mi advantage antenna and got the channels I needed with an ENE pointing. After a few days, the wind moved it SSE so I lost a channel I really want. It came with 2 U bolts but only one nesting assembly. So the boom brace had no nesting bar.

Channel Master support was not helpful and basically warned me that any other wire modifications might interfere with the reception.

I've ordered another U bolt with nesting assembly in the hopes that this will prevent antenna movement on the mast. I hire a handyman to do the mechanical because I am not able to do it myself - not inexpensive, but I guess still cheaper than cable.

Anybody have any other ideas?


----------



## rabbit73

sirius00 said:


> I replaced my Antop Smartpass Panel antenna with a Channel Master 100 mi advantage antenna and got the channels I needed with an ENE pointing. After a few days, the wind moved it SSE so I lost a channel I really want. It came with 2 U bolts but only one nesting assembly. So the boom brace had no nesting bar.
> 
> Channel Master support was not helpful and basically warned me that any other wire modifications might interfere with the reception.
> 
> I've ordered another U bolt with nesting assembly in the hopes that this will prevent antenna movement on the mast. I hire a handyman to do the mechanical because I am not able to do it myself - not inexpensive, but I guess still cheaper than cable.
> 
> Anybody have any other ideas?


The boom clamp that bites into the mast is supposed to keep the boom from rotating around the mast. If it doesn't, you will need to pin the boom to the mast.










To avoid drilling a third hole in the boom, maybe you can drill a hole in the clamp at the red dot, countersink at the other side of the clamp, and insert a flat head self tapping or machine screw into the mast.

This is similar to what Channel Master recommends for their eave mount:
https://support.channelmaster.com/h...o-I-assemble-my-CM-9030-Adjustable-Eave-Mount-


----------



## holl_ands

A-D Specs for DB-2e....it does NOT PLOT Beamwidth, nor F/B and F/R Ratios...you have to calculate yourself. Note excessive SWR (GT 2.7) on Lower Channels:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/Technical Data PDF's/DB2E-TDS.pdf

A-D Spec Sheet claims "Front to Back Ratio greater than 18 dB"....but looking at the Azimuthal Charts above, I think they really mean Front to REAR Ratio (directly opposite Max Beam directly), cuz looking at the rear Sidelobes, F/B Ratio is 1 or 2 dB Less.

I don't like the excessive SWR on the lower Channels....for which reason I wouldn't usually recommend using it due to Additional Degradation of the Error Vector Magnitude [EVM] as documented by Dr. Obed Bendov, et.al.:
https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/18...-design-modeling-software-48.html#post1303957
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...et-top-antenna-review-round-up-guide-108.html
[Links don't work....I'll try to either fix, or let me know and I'll make documents available.]
Here are the two most important papers:
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.610.3457&rep=rep1&type=pdf
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...ction-measurement-and-performance-indices.pdf


Solid Signal HDB-2X 2- Bay MAY or MAY NOT have an SWR problem....their Specs are SILENT on this issue. They also provide incomplete info re F/B and F/R Ratio, only plotting two (unspecified) Freqs in their Azimuthal Plots...which do NOT support their outrageous claim of "Front to back ratio greater than 22dB"....well, unless on maybe on ONE Specific Frequency Note that it is EASY to get very high F/R Ratio Spec if Antenna has a NULL at 270-deg...which is why F/B Ratio (entire Rear Hemisphere) is the more IMPORTANT Performance Spec:
https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=hdb2x [Be sure to look at DOWNLOADS.]


My recommenced DIY H2 2-Bay with 11RR maintains low SWR and hence does NOT have this problem....and we don't really KNOW the performance of other 2-Bays.

If anyone has actual MEASUREMENTS of HDB-2X, and/or similar HDB-4X and/or HDB-8X, I would TRY to construct a 4nec2 Model so we can confirm their performance. Same for GE Antennas, which elects to NOT provide detailed specs on their products.


----------



## RF Steve

Cheap Walmart amplifier
I'm currently using a Walmart onn antenna outdoor antenna amplifier. MODEL ONA17CH003. 
While it is doing it's job with no problems.The reason for use is a very long feed line +150' and one split.
Has anyone put this cheap amplifier on the test bench yet.


----------



## ncsercs

holl_ands said:


> *ncsercs:* To combat Multipath, you need a Higher Gain Antenna with a Narrower Beamwidth, which suppresses not only signals from the REAR, but also signals bouncing in from the sides. A-D C2 is a Low Gain, Very Wide Beamwidth Antenna....the exact opposite of what you need. And of course, you should try Location, Location, Location.....
> 
> The "Silver Sensor" type Antenna you tried earlier is the Type of Antenna you need....but it came with a [Detachable, Adjustable] Amplifier, which I suspect was causing serious Intermodulation Distortion, blocking reception on many of your Channels. Your signal strengths are VERY Strong and you do NOT "Need" any Amplification [unless driving more than two Tuners...in which case, you MAY need to use separate Antennas]:
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-l...n/815397-chicago-il-ota-428.html#post56401190
> PS: Presumably your TVFool Results have NOT changed since last month.
> 
> You should try the "Silver Sensor" type Antenna WITHOUT the Detachable Preamp, trying different Locations and Reception Angles....and also try other Antennas WITHOUT the LNA-100....and let us know. I am also curious as to whether any of your existing UHF Antennas also receive CBS Network on either Ch12 in Hi-VHF Band and/or Ch32 in UHF Band ["Silver Sensor" type did BOTH]. Note that if you get CBS on Ch32, then you do NOT need an Antenna with Hi-VHF Band Coverage [although many UHF Antennas will get Strong Ch12 anyway].


Tried the "Silver Sensor" type Antenna in the area I'm using now - actually got worse results. Put the Clearstream back in the same postion but lowered it 9 inches and I think found the sweet spot I'm looking for.

Thanks!


----------



## carillon

*New construction antenna question*

I'd like to install an antenna to receive OTA channels as a backup to CATV. I need to purchase the antenna and amplifier that could provide signal to 5 TVs. Looking for suggestions and helpful advice. Would prefer attic location but not sure how much the hardie siding would knock the signal down. Thanks


----------



## ADTech

> Has anyone put this cheap amplifier on the test bench yet.


 Yep, put one on my bench six weeks ago, just haven't gotten around to doing much with it since then. Been focused on other projects and products. It's still on my bench, though!


----------



## rabbit73

carillon said:


> I'd like to install an antenna to receive OTA channels as a backup to CATV. I need to purchase the antenna and amplifier that could provide signal to 5 TVs. Looking for suggestions and helpful advice. Would prefer attic location but not sure how much the hardie siding would knock the signal down. Thanks


Your signals are very strong, so an attic antenna has a good chance of working unless the trees block the signals from the NNE. Try a Winegard HD7694P in the attic with just one TV at first and no amp. If the signals are too weak after splitting, add a distribution amp before splitting.

If you have an aluminum foil thermal barrier in the roof, it will block TV signals.

You must not mix OTA and cable signals on the same coax.

There are a lot of channel changes going on because of UHF Repack by the FCC. Here is a report from rabbitears.info which should have a more accurate list of channels:










These are the changes for Knoxville; most will be during Phase 5:
https://www.rabbitears.info/repackc...&state=&mktid=72&owner=&sort=&ph=&lss=&status=

https://www.commlawcenter.com/2017/...ion-results-and-sets-tv-repack-deadlines.html

Testing Begins: 8/3/2019 Phase Ends: 9/6/2019

You also have some very strong FM signals coming from the NNE that might interfere with TV reception; an FM filter might be required;
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/9bc6a3ee54/Radar-FM.png


----------



## carillon

rabbit73 said:


> Your signals are very strong, so an attic antenna has a good chance of working unless the trees block the signals from the NNE. Try a Winegard HD7694P in the attic with just one TV at first and no amp. If the signals are too weak after splitting, add a distribution amp before splitting.
> 
> If you have an aluminum foil thermal barrier in the roof, it will block TV signals.
> 
> You must not mix OTA and cable signals on the same coax.
> 
> There are a lot of channel changes going on because of UHF Repack by the FCC. Here is a report from rabbitears.info which should have a more accurate list of channels:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are the changes for Knoxville; most will be during Phase 5:
> https://www.rabbitears.info/repackc...&state=&mktid=72&owner=&sort=&ph=&lss=&status=
> 
> https://www.commlawcenter.com/2017/...ion-results-and-sets-tv-repack-deadlines.html
> 
> Testing Begins: 8/3/2019 Phase Ends: 9/6/2019
> 
> You also have some very strong FM signals coming from the NNE that might interfere with TV reception; an FM filter might be required;
> http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/9bc6a3ee54/Radar-FM.png


Wow! Thanks for the reply and all the time it took for you to compile that information... I really appreciate it.

My NNE view is very good so I'm very hopeful the attic location will work. We're under construction so I'm running an RG6 from each TV for CATV and a separate one for OTA. It's going to be difficult to test before drywall goes up but all structured wiring that I'm doing myself goes to a central closet so adding an amp should be easy. Roof is synthetic membrane over OSB sheathing and traditional shingles. Siding on NNE is Hardie plank. Tell me more about the Winegard HD7694P and why it's your choice for my situation. Thanks again!


----------



## rabbit73

carillon said:


> Wow! Thanks for the reply and all the time it took for you to compile that information... I really appreciate it.
> 
> My NNE view is very good so I'm very hopeful the attic location will work. We're under construction so I'm running an RG6 from each TV for CATV and a separate one for OTA. It's going to be difficult to test before drywall goes up but all structured wiring that I'm doing myself goes to a central closet so adding an amp should be easy. Roof is synthetic membrane over OSB sheathing and traditional shingles. Siding on NNE is Hardie plank. Tell me more about the Winegard HD7694P and why it's your choice for my situation. Thanks again!


Yes, it does take time; thanks for understanding.

Sounds like you asked your question in time to make any necessary changes.

I picked the 7694 antenna because it is a combo antenna for UHF and VHF-High channels (real channels 7-13), both of which you have.

If the antenna was going to be outside, I would have picked something like the Antennas Direct C2V or the GE 29884, but they only have a simple dipole for VHF-High. Since I don't know the attenuation factor of Hardie plank, I picked an antenna with a little more gain, but I don't think it would be necessary to go to something like the Winegard HD7698P or separate high gain UHF and VHF-High antennas in your attic.

Unfortunately, it is necessary to make some signal tests with an attic antenna and just one TV to find out. If the signals are OK with one TV, but too weak after splitting, you can add a distribution amp in the equipment closet. 

If the signal attenuation is greater than I thought, you can add a preamp to the 7694, but I doubt that it will be necessary.


----------



## carillon

rabbit73 said:


> Yes, it does take time; thanks for understanding.
> 
> Sounds like you asked your question in time to make any necessary changes.
> 
> I picked the 7694 antenna because it is a combo antenna for UHF and VHF-High channels (real channels 7-13), both of which you have.
> 
> If the antenna was going to be outside, I would have picked something like the Antennas Direct C2V or the GE 29884, but they only have a simple dipole for VHF-High. Since I don't know the attenuation factor of Hardie plank, I picked an antenna with a little more gain, but I don't think it would be necessary to go to something like the Winegard HD7698P or separate high gain UHF and VHF-High antennas in your attic.


Sounds good, I'll go ahead and get one ordered. To aim it, I would assume I should just point the long rail to roughly 20° NNE.


----------



## rabbit73

carillon said:


> Sounds good, I'll go ahead and get one ordered. To aim it, I would assume I should just point the long rail to roughly 20° NNE.


Yes


Please be careful of the sharp elements in the attic.


----------



## carillon

rabbit73 said:


> Yes
> 
> 
> Please be careful of the sharp elements in the attic.


Thanks again!


----------



## wildwillie6

*Attic antenna possibilities?*

Because of some repack issues, for part of my installation I'd like to get the following LOS channels via attic antenna:










The vertical wall next to the antenna is vinyl siding over wood framing and the wall is 27 degrees off the ideal -- that is, the wall faces 260 degrees and the vector to the transmitter is 233.

Back when I kept up with antenna hardware better, the default answer from those who frequent this forum would have been: "Try a ChannelMaster 4228 with CM 7777 pre-amp." So my question is this: Is there an obviously better alternative out there now? (say, to deal with the signal attenuation and angles of this attic?) I feel confident that there are non-obviously-better alternatives, as in "You might try a Mohu Leaf 60," but I would welcome any speculation of that sort also.

Thanks to all,
w.


----------



## rabbit73

That looks like an attic antenna would work if the TVFool report is accurate, but it probably isn't because their database to generate reports has many errors. I tried to estimate your location to generate a rabbitears.info report, using a location on College View Dr near the river:












https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=wvpt


----------



## drhjean

*Antenna help*

I would be grateful for some insight and recommendations for an antenna. I want to be able to pull in my local major networks (ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, along with CW and PBS) as strongly as possible with minimal weather-related signal degragation/loss. I don’t care about getting other stations. I am attaching both the TV Fool and Rabbit Ears reports.

I am a long-time Dish Network customer. Having moved to south Florida several years ago, I am getting frustrated with the frequency of weather-related signal loss and also would love to get rid of the subscription. We have heavy rains for much of the summer and on occasions the rest of the year. 

I have an OTA antenna now, a Winegard FL6550A with an amplifier. When I installed it, I mistakenly assumed that if it can pull in distant stations, the signal of local stations will be stronger. So, with it, I can even receive most of the Miami/Fort Lauderdale stations, along with the local major networks, but as soon as there is wind or rain, even the closest signals pixelate and drop out.

If I am reading the charts correctly, the six signals I want are in two directions from my home. They are both high VHF and UHF (not much different after the repack). I will likely send the signal to one TV (especially if sending it to a second one will hurt reception). There are trees about fifty feet from the antenna location but not closer and no buildings in the line of sight. Would it be preferable to install on the roof or in an attic (if I can)? I imagine there might be some trial and error or adjustments to make along the way but want to start from as informed a point as possible. 

Thanks for any input.


----------



## holl_ands

How is the Winegard FLATWAVE Antenna currently oriented??? IF it was roughly "pointed" (i.e. Flat Side) toward North/South, then the Nulls would point nearly due East/West, so that a reasonable amount of Gain results in all three desired directions.

You have VERY Strong signals, which MIGHT be causing excessive IMD Noise on the WEAKER channels coming from the South.....which channels are you having problems with??? IF you were to move the existing Antenna to your Attic, the "typical" 17 dB (+/- 7 dB) Loss would prevent any IMD Noise problems and MAY still result in "Adequate" Signal strengths....won't know until you try. However, you may lose Hi-VHF Channels (Ch7-13), since FLATWAVE has negative Gain in that band and would be even worse in Attic.

Attic placement is much preferred to survive high winds frequently found in your area....and I SUSPECT that WATER on your FLATWAVE may be causing some degradation....at least that's my current Working Theory, based on your reported experiences....

IF you find that you need a better Attic Antenna, you should consider any of the 4-Bay Antennas with the Rear Reflector removed, so it provides a Bi-Directional Pattern with about 60-deg Beamwidth when "Pointed" in nearly true North/South Directions...PLUS a Hi-VHF Antenna with at least a moderate amount of Gain, such as RCA ANT-751 [with Antennas Direct VHF/UHF Combiner] pointed toward about 212-deg (re True-North), half-way between Ch12/13 and Ch9/10.


----------



## drhjean

Thanks for the quick response. The Flatwave is currently aimed roughly at the transmitters at 232-233 degrees. 

I believe (if I’m reading this correctly) that I only need signals from two directions (with the high VHF both being in basically the same direction):

Channel 12, WPTV, 232°, 14 miles, -31.49 dBm
Channel 13, WPEC, 231°, 14 miles, -43.91 dBm
Channel 27, WXEL, 233°, 16 miles, -35.48 dBm
Channel 28, WFLX, 233°, 16 miles, -32.63 dBm (moving to channel 35)

Channel 16, WPBF, 322°, 36 miles, -35.08 dBm
Channel 34, WTVX, 322°, 36 miles, -38.80 dBm (moving to channel 20)

I think you might be right about water on the antenna. The signal on just about every channel degrades or disappears as soon as it rains.

It sounds, though, like there will be better antenna solutions than this Flatwave if I mount in the attic. I am not certain that I can mount these there, and I’ll have to look.

Is this the kind of thing you’re recommending for the UHF?
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/DB4e-extended-long-range-outdoor-dtv-antenna.html What purpose does the rear reflector (I assume the mesh grid element) serve, and what effect does removing it have?

Also, going with a two-antenna solution, can they simply be mounted next to each other in the attic?

I appreciate the help. It’s great to learn, and I want to get this working as best as I can.


----------



## Intheswamp

@drhjean, I had a long reply typed up but something ate it. Since I'm no expert it was no great loss. 

Your two "antenna farms" are located roughly 90-degrees apart. Most of the 4-bay'ish antennas have at best a beamwidth of around 60 degrees. But since the majority of the stations are fairly close I would think that you could aim the DB4e to favor ABC and CW stations and still get a good signal from the others coming in at more of a sideways angle. 

Don't be bashful in trying a second antenna. Small, 2-bay bowties can be had cheaply. Something you might want to consider is the Antenna Direct 2Max which has a built-in VHF dipole. I sat a 2Max and a 2-bay antenna up at my daughter's house which has done a really good job in a rural location...we're talking pushing 50 mile reception...but, it's an outdoor setup, not attic. I had to add the 2-bay for a station that was basically 100-degrees off from the rest of the stations. 

Also AD makes a simple VHF-kit which is an add-on VHF dipole if you need a little extra help with VHF. 

Whatever antenna you get, connect it to your nearest tv. If you get a good signal there split it to another tv. If that degrades the signal then you might need a distribution amplifier. Excessive coax runs and splitters can weaken signals, thus calling for signal amplification *where the signal is good*....in other words you want to amplify a good signal. If the first tv has a good signal then that would be a good place to amplify the signal for splitting. I have a strong pre-amp up at the antenna at my daughter's house...but it feeds three different televisions via a long coax run. First thing to do is get a good signal from the first television location and go from there. 

Hopefully I didn't type anything that is destructively wrong, but just sharing some rambling thoughts with you that might stir some ideas up for you. 

My wife and I "cut the cord" back in February. We use a Tivo Roamio OTA for DVR'ing broadcasts. Sometimes weather plays an issue, but we haven't regretted a bit telling DISH "Goodbye!!!".  You will fine that your viewing habits will change, but for us it was no issue at all. For non-broadcast television we stream Amazon-Prime and freebies...but mostly it's OTA shows that we watch. I *kind of* miss DISH's early-storm-warning feature...the sudden loss of satellite signal due to a storm several miles to the southwest of us. 

Best wishes on your project!!! 
Ed


----------



## JHBrandt

drhjean said:


> I can even receive most of the Miami/Fort Lauderdale stations, along with the local major networks, but as soon as there is wind or rain, even the closest signals pixelate and drop out.
> 
> There are trees about fifty feet from the antenna location but not closer and no buildings in the line of sight.
> 
> Thanks for any input.


It's probably more the wind than the rain. Wet trees will block signals, especially UHF; but with signals as strong as your TVFool images suggest, the biggest problem is usually multipath. TV signals bounce off the tree limbs, but when it's calm your TV tuners can compensate for the reflected signals. But when the wind blows, the reflected signals keep changing, so the tuners can't keep up; hence pixelation and drop-outs.

The usual cure for multipath is a more directional antenna, but since you have two signal sources 90 degrees apart, that's kind of tough. I'd probably start by trying reorienting the Flatwave so the flat sides are N-S (also try to get it up high, so reflections from the people walking around in your home will be less of an issue) and seeing if you can get a reasonably solid signal on a windy day. But don't be surprised if that doesn't work very well.

If not, a ClearStream 2Max with a VHF dipole in your attic (assuming no radiant barrier; if you have one of those, better put it on the roof) is probably a better bet. They aren't terribly directional but at least they're good at rejecting reflections from the ground below, which can help with multipath somewhat.


----------



## drhjean

Intheswamp said:


> @*drhjean* , I had a long reply typed up but something ate it. Since I'm no expert it was no great loss.
> 
> Your two "antenna farms" are located roughly 90-degrees apart. Most of the 4-bay'ish antennas have at best a beamwidth of around 60 degrees. But since the majority of the stations are fairly close I would think that you could aim the DB4e to favor ABC and CW stations and still get a good signal from the others coming in at more of a sideways angle.
> 
> Don't be bashful in trying a second antenna. Small, 2-bay bowties can be had cheaply. Something you might want to consider is the Antenna Direct 2Max which has a built-in VHF dipole. I sat a 2Max and a 2-bay antenna up at my daughter's house which has done a really good job in a rural location...we're talking pushing 50 mile reception...but, it's an outdoor setup, not attic. I had to add the 2-bay for a station that was basically 100-degrees off from the rest of the stations.
> 
> Also AD makes a simple VHF-kit which is an add-on VHF dipole if you need a little extra help with VHF.
> 
> Whatever antenna you get, connect it to your nearest tv. If you get a good signal there split it to another tv. If that degrades the signal then you might need a distribution amplifier. Excessive coax runs and splitters can weaken signals, thus calling for signal amplification *where the signal is good*....in other words you want to amplify a good signal. If the first tv has a good signal then that would be a good place to amplify the signal for splitting. I have a strong pre-amp up at the antenna at my daughter's house...but it feeds three different televisions via a long coax run. First thing to do is get a good signal from the first television location and go from there.
> 
> Hopefully I didn't type anything that is destructively wrong, but just sharing some rambling thoughts with you that might stir some ideas up for you.
> 
> My wife and I "cut the cord" back in February. We use a Tivo Roamio OTA for DVR'ing broadcasts. Sometimes weather plays an issue, but we haven't regretted a bit telling DISH "Goodbye!!!".  You will fine that your viewing habits will change, but for us it was no issue at all. For non-broadcast television we stream Amazon-Prime and freebies...but mostly it's OTA shows that we watch. I *kind of* miss DISH's early-storm-warning feature...the sudden loss of satellite signal due to a storm several miles to the southwest of us.
> 
> Best wishes on your project!!!
> Ed


Thanks! I'm really interested in going with Tivo and ditching Dish if I can make this work reliably enough. 

So, since I have UHF signals in two directions, should I be using something like this: https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/DB8e-Ultra-Long-Range-Outdoor-DTV-Antenna.html or is that too much (still, of course, needing something for VHF)?



JHBrandt said:


> It's probably more the wind than the rain. Wet trees will block signals, especially UHF; but with signals as strong as your TVFool images suggest, the biggest problem is usually multipath. TV signals bounce off the tree limbs, but when it's calm your TV tuners can compensate for the reflected signals. But when the wind blows, the reflected signals keep changing, so the tuners can't keep up; hence pixelation and drop-outs.
> 
> The usual cure for multipath is a more directional antenna, but since you have two signal sources 90 degrees apart, that's kind of tough. I'd probably start by trying reorienting the Flatwave so the flat sides are N-S (also try to get it up high, so reflections from the people walking around in your home will be less of an issue) and seeing if you can get a reasonably solid signal on a windy day. But don't be surprised if that doesn't work very well.
> 
> If not, a ClearStream 2Max with a VHF dipole in your attic (assuming no radiant barrier; if you have one of those, better put it on the roof) is probably a better bet. They aren't terribly directional but at least they're good at rejecting reflections from the ground below, which can help with multipath somewhat.


Thanks for the input. I may have to mount this on the roof. I don't really know what the space in the attic is like (and am not home to check at the moment). Can you explain what constitutes a radiant barrier?


----------



## ADTech

> Can you explain what constitutes a radiant barrier?


Looks like aluminum foil.


I'd suggest ordering two of our DB2e antennas as they're clearance-priced at $30 each right now. Pick up a two port splitter from Home Depot, get two lengths of RG6 coax, and make a two-antenna rig with the individual antennas set to each maximize reception of one set of stations while minimizing reception of the other. That usually means that the nulls at 90° need to be facing the direction of the "other" set of towers. You want to minimize reception of the "wrong" signals when each individual antenna is picking up the desired signals.


It's a far from perfect process and too often doesn't work out (especially in attics due to reflections), but that's the best option to avoid a rotor or individual tuners.


----------



## SFischer1

drhjean said:


> ...
> 
> 
> Thanks for the input. I may have to mount this on the roof. I don't really know what the space in the attic is like (and am not home to check at the moment). Can you explain what constitutes a radiant barrier?


https://www.avsforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=2165469


Shiney side

https://www.avsforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=126090&cat=2165469

Reverse side.

https://www.avsforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=126091&cat=2165469

SHF

If you have trouble finding the Roofing board that "Fell into my Patio", I will re upload the photos. AVS is funny with the old pictures.


----------



## drhjean

ADTech said:


> Looks like aluminum foil.
> 
> 
> I'd suggest ordering two of our DB2e antennas as they're clearance-priced at $30 each right now. Pick up a two port splitter from Home Depot, get two lengths of RG6 coax, and make a two-antenna rig with the individual antennas set to each maximize reception of one set of stations while minimizing reception of the other. That usually means that the nulls at 90° need to be facing the direction of the "other" set of towers. You want to minimize reception of the "wrong" signals when each individual antenna is picking up the desired signals.
> 
> 
> It's a far from perfect process and too often doesn't work out (especially in attics due to reflections), but that's the best option to avoid a rotor or individual tuners.


I would still need something for the high VHF channels, right? What do you suggest for that?


----------



## drhjean

SFischer1 said:


> https://www.avsforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=2165469
> 
> 
> Shiney side
> 
> https://www.avsforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=126090&cat=2165469
> 
> Reverse side.
> 
> https://www.avsforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=126091&cat=2165469
> 
> SHF
> 
> If you have trouble finding the Roofing board that "Fell into my Patio", I will re upload the photos. AVS is funny with the old pictures.


Thanks. That seems pretty easy to verify. I'll take a look. Of course, if that kind of material is in the attic, that means definitely a rooftop install, right?


----------



## Intheswamp

drhjean said:


> I would still need something for the high VHF channels, right? What do you suggest for that?


Sometimes (read that as "sometimes") a UHF antenna will pick up high-VHF signals. You don't really know until you try it, though some antennas are better at it than others.


----------



## SFischer1

Intheswamp said:


> Sometimes (read that as "sometimes") a UHF antenna will pick up high-VHF signals. You don't really know until you try it, though some antennas are better at it than others.


My CM4228HD does just fine with RF 7 and RF 12.

After the repack, RF 5 will be needed, as KRCB is at 75 miles it is good that they purchased another station and may include non-PBS programs on KPJK RF 27 at 36 miles.


(That is if they can get the station to work, having a transmitter on for ~ 17 Days with no ATSC signal may have cooked something. 

https://sfbayatsc.koherence.com/index.php/signal-data-charts/?bmon_channel=43

After ~ one week not too much improvement.  )

SHF


----------



## Intheswamp

drhjean said:


> Thanks! I'm really interested in going with Tivo and ditching Dish if I can make this work reliably enough.
> 
> So, since I have UHF signals in two directions, should I be using something like this: https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/DB8e-Ultra-Long-Range-Outdoor-DTV-Antenna.html or is that too much (still, of course, needing something for VHF)?


We've enjoyed the Tivo Roamio OTA. Tivo usually has a couple of sales throughout the year. Black Friday is usually one of them. There is a learning curve, but if you've been using a DISH DVR then you probably will be ok with it. There is debate between the old Tivo operating system and the new (Hydra) system. I figured I had never experienced the old system so I stuck with the new system that comes installed on it...it works fine for us. There is a learning curve and there are quirks that you will run into. It's not perfect, but I believe it's the best OTA DVR out there at the moment.

The DB8e is a strong antenna. I use one for one specific station that is a 2-edge, weak-power station...reception of it requires the DB8e to be aimed pretty tightly, within a few degrees, of it's direction. Via spiltters I have a 4-bay and a AD VHF-Kit combined with the DB8e. Sometimes combining works...sometimes it doesn't. The idea of using the two 4-bay panels for opposite directions is an interesting one. I've never tried it, though other people have and report mixed results. In your situation, I would probably pass on it. I also got my at an absolute steal from a guy whose wife didn't like the way it looked! I'm not sure I would have bought it otherwise...


----------



## drhjean

Intheswamp said:


> We've enjoyed the Tivo Roamio OTA. Tivo usually has a couple of sales throughout the year. Black Friday is usually one of them. There is a learning curve, but if you've been using a DISH DVR then you probably will be ok with it. There is debate between the old Tivo operating system and the new (Hydra) system. I figured I had never experienced the old system so I stuck with the new system that comes installed on it...it works fine for us. There is a learning curve and there are quirks that you will run into. It's not perfect, but I believe it's the best OTA DVR out there at the moment.
> 
> The DB8e is a strong antenna. I use one for one specific station that is a 2-edge, weak-power station...reception of it requires the DB8e to be aimed pretty tightly, within a few degrees, of it's direction. Via spiltters I have a 4-bay and a AD VHF-Kit combined with the DB8e. Sometimes combining works...sometimes it doesn't. The idea of using the two 4-bay panels for opposite directions is an interesting one. I've never tried it, though other people have and report mixed results. In your situation, I would probably pass on it. I also got my at an absolute steal from a guy whose wife didn't like the way it looked! I'm not sure I would have bought it otherwise...


So, the DB8e web page says, "the two panels will turn to target broadcast towers in multiple directions." So it looks like 2 4-bays aimed in two different directions but in one package. This is so confusing. On paper to an novice like me, that seems like just the right solution. Aim one side at 233 and the other side at 322. Add some sort of directional VHF aimed at 232, and it would all be covered. But you're saying don't do that, right?

But if I have one 4-bay antenna, where do I aim it? Halfway between the two around 277?

Also, I was looking at similar designs on the ChannelMaster site, and they say the cover 180 degrees. If that's the case, would that be preferable; or is that just marketing hyperbole?

I'm not sure if I already said this, but I used to live in central Denver where all the signals came from the same location on a mountain top. I went and bought a cheap Radio Shack antenna and laid it on the floor of my attic. It worked flawlessly. I wish I could have that same experience here.


----------



## Intheswamp

Well, I was only relaying what others have shared about turning the two panels in different directions...basically mixed reports of "it worked" and "it didn't work". Each location will be different. Your location may work fine. I'm not saying not to do it...I like tinkering. I also like ADTech's recommendation of two of the 2-bays...but I can't find them on the AD website. Your rabbitears report looks good. A 4-bay for the longer distance transmitters and a 2-bay for the nearer transmitters might be an option. Or, just start out with a single 2-bay and see how it performs when aimed in different directions...if it receives the distant stations good then two 2-bays are probably all you need. If it doesn't peform well for the distant stations but does the nearer stations then try a 4-bay for the more distant ones. Just throwing some options out to you. I wouldn't add a VHF dipole until I knew I needed one.

You'll probably be getting some feedback from some of the experts soon, but I think your in a a definitely doable situation!! And, yeah, when all the transmitters are sitting on a hill in one location overlooking you life can be good.


----------



## drhjean

Intheswamp said:


> Well, I was only relaying what others have shared about turning the two panels in different directions...basically mixed reports of "it worked" and "it didn't work". Each location will be different. Your location may work fine. I'm not saying not to do it...I like tinkering. I also like ADTech's recommendation of two of the 2-bays...but I can't find them on the AD website. Your rabbitears report looks good. A 4-bay for the longer distance transmitters and a 2-bay for the nearer transmitters might be an option. Or, just start out with a single 2-bay and see how it performs when aimed in different directions...if it receives the distant stations good then two 2-bays are probably all you need. If it doesn't peform well for the distant stations but does the nearer stations then try a 4-bay for the more distant ones. Just throwing some options out to you. I wouldn't add a VHF dipole until I knew I needed one.
> 
> You'll probably be getting some feedback from some of the experts soon, but I think your in a a definitely doable situation!! And, yeah, when all the transmitters are sitting on a hill in one location overlooking you life can be good.


Thanks. The process suggestions are a huge help. It is just a bit overwhelming, and this gives some good steps to getting the best end result.

I think this is the 2-bay in question: https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/DB2e-Long-Range-Outdoor-Antenna.html


----------



## Intheswamp

Thanks for the link. AD builds good stuff and the price is reasonable, especially if you buy $49 worth and get free shipping.


----------



## holl_ands

You have VERY Strong Signals (all Networks are "GOOD" in RabbitEars Report).
Since MOST Antennas have a NULL at 90-deg to the main beam, pointing towards 232/3-deg results in minimal Gain towards 322-deg [90-deg difference with Max Multipath Interference]. If you were to point Flatwave Antenna towards the MID-POINT between those directions, i.e. 277-deg, then significant Gain results towards EACH Desired Direction.


Since Flatwave has at least SOME Gain in Hi-VHF Band, there is a good chance that it will also receive Extremely Strong Ch12 (NBC) and Strong Ch13 (CBS). However if you move the Flatwave to your Attic to avoid damaging storms, you MAY or MAY NOT lose Ch13.....and even the A-D VHF Antenna MIGHT have problems receiving Ch13 in the Attic.

Simply moving the Flatwave Antenna to your Attic "should" STILL be adequate to receive stations coming from 332-338 deg. IF NEEDED, adding the recommended RCA ANT-741 [via standard RF Combiner], pointed towards 232-233 deg "should" provide adequate Hi-VHF Band Gain for Ch12/13, as well as UHF Stations in that direction.


----------



## drhjean

holl_ands said:


> You have VERY Strong Signals (all Networks are "GOOD" in RabbitEars Report).
> Since MOST Antennas have a NULL at 90-deg to the main beam, pointing towards 232/3-deg results in minimal Gain towards 322-deg [90-deg difference with Max Multipath Interference]. If you were to point Flatwave Antenna towards the MID-POINT between those directions, i.e. 277-deg, then significant Gain results towards EACH Desired Direction.
> 
> 
> Since Flatwave has at least SOME Gain in Hi-VHF Band, there is a good chance that it will also receive Extremely Strong Ch12 (NBC) and Strong Ch13 (CBS). However if you move the Flatwave to your Attic to avoid damaging storms, you MAY or MAY NOT lose Ch13.....and even the A-D VHF Antenna MIGHT have problems receiving Ch13 in the Attic.
> 
> Simply moving the Flatwave Antenna to your Attic "should" STILL be adequate to receive stations coming from 332-338 deg. IF NEEDED, adding the recommended RCA ANT-741 [via standard RF Combiner], pointed towards 232-233 deg "should" provide adequate Hi-VHF Band Gain for Ch12/13, as well as UHF Stations in that direction.


Thanks. This is the direction I want to go. 

So, if I didn't already have the flatwave and wanted those four UHF signals to come in as reliably as possible through the vicissitudes of south Florida wind and rain, what UHF antenna would you suggest I try for an attic mount (assuming that I would use the recommended RCA antenna for VHF and combine the signals appropriately)?


----------



## holl_ands

Inexpensive UHF Antenna with at least SOME Gain and a Reflector to suppress Multipath, which may or may NOT be a problem in your Attic (LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION). Any 2-Bay or 4-Bay Bowtie with Reflector should work just fine, such as A-D DB-2 or DB-4 or equivalents, such as CM4220HD & CM4221HD and Solid Signal HDB-2X & HDB-4X. [2-Bay should be all the Gain you need, but 4-Bay provides a bit more protection against Multipath....and I wouldn't rule out your existing Flatwave until after you TRY it.]


----------



## drhjean

holl_ands said:


> Inexpensive UHF Antenna with at least SOME Gain and a Reflector to suppress Multipath, which may or may NOT be a problem in your Attic (LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION). Any 2-Bay or 4-Bay Bowtie with Reflector should work just fine, such as A-D DB-2 or DB-4 or equivalents, such as CM4220HD & CM4221HD and Solid Signal HDB-2X & HDB-4X. [2-Bay should be all the Gain you need, but 4-Bay provides a bit more protection against Multipath....and I wouldn't rule out your existing Flatwave until after you TRY it.]


Thanks. I'll definitely try the flatwave as I work through this. I appreciate the suggestions here.


----------



## tustinfarm

*DVR reboots from Ham Radio transmitter - HELP!*

(posted same query on Tivo forum - trying to cover all bases)

Are there any amateur radio folks here that have experienced problems with a Tivo OTA DVR rebooting when transmitting on HF bands like 40 and 80 meters, i.i. 3.7 and 14 MHz? I have had this happen with a couple of my Tivo units at two locations, and before I spend hours of time trying filters, toroid cores etc I decided I would start by posting here, on the chance that I am not alone and this had already been discussed/solved.

Some preliminary tests show that the ingress of RF energy is not solely in the incoming RG-6 antenna line - other options are the HDMI cable, power adapter line, and the DVR chassis itself. Not ready to construct a Faraday shield just yet!


----------



## Calaveras

tustinfarm said:


> (posted same query on Tivo forum - trying to cover all bases)
> 
> Are there any amateur radio folks here that have experienced problems with a Tivo OTA DVR rebooting when transmitting on HF bands like 40 and 80 meters, i.i. 3.7 and 14 MHz? I have had this happen with a couple of my Tivo units at two locations, and before I spend hours of time trying filters, toroid cores etc I decided I would start by posting here, on the chance that I am not alone and this had already been discussed/solved.
> 
> Some preliminary tests show that the ingress of RF energy is not solely in the incoming RG-6 antenna line - other options are the HDMI cable, power adapter line, and the DVR chassis itself. Not ready to construct a Faraday shield just yet!



Not sure I can really add anything you didn't already get on the TiVo forum. Toroids are probably your best bet on all the cables. Some HDMI cables come with ferrite on each end. This sort of RFI can be difficult to solve. Separating the antenna and the offending device as much as possible can help a lot.

GL & 73


----------



## Channel99

tustinfarm said:


> (posted same query on Tivo forum - trying to cover all bases)
> 
> Are there any amateur radio folks here that have experienced problems with a Tivo OTA DVR rebooting when transmitting on HF bands like 40 and 80 meters, i.i. 3.7 and 14 MHz? I have had this happen with a couple of my Tivo units at two locations, and before I spend hours of time trying filters, toroid cores etc I decided I would start by posting here, on the chance that I am not alone and this had already been discussed/solved.
> 
> Some preliminary tests show that the ingress of RF energy is not solely in the incoming RG-6 antenna line - other options are the HDMI cable, power adapter line, and the DVR chassis itself. Not ready to construct a Faraday shield just yet!


It's important that RF is not being induced into the house wiring ground or other ground by an improperly matched balun or antenna tuner. The signal may get great range, and the SWR could appear low, but that can happen if the ground system becomes one of radiating elements. If that happens, RF will be everywhere.


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## tustinfarm

Channel99 said:


> It's important that RF is not being induced into the house wiring ground or other ground by an improperly matched balun or antenna tuner. The signal may get great range, and the SWR could appear low, but that can happen if the ground system becomes one of radiating elements. If that happens, RF will be everywhere.


Thanks, good points about grounding...indeed I just put up the HF antenna yesterday...and the coax is not grounded...yet (gasp!). So besides putting ferrite chokes on the incoming lines to the Tivo, I will also be grounding the RG8x from the HF antenna...once I get the final coax routing figured out. My first priority was getting the antenna put up in the yard area that works best, and now I can focus on where the best radio/coax location/route will be.


----------



## Calaveras

Every time this subject of grounding in reference to RF comes up I see a gross misunderstanding of how it works. Your AC house ground is a fine ground for 60 Hz. It is not a ground for 7 MHz. If you're transmitting within about 200' of your house there will be RF on the house wiring. In most cases there is one earth ground at where the 240V service enters the house. Any wire longer than about 15' away from that ground is an antenna at 7 MHz. Basically your house wiring is one big random length wire antenna. In order to get an RF ground for your TiVo you'd need to pound a ground rod into the ground through the floor right next to the TiVo and connect it to the ground plane in the TiVo. That ground might actually do something.

Your best bet is to put ferrite on all the cables going to the TiVo.

Not that it makes much difference, but I'm curious what antenna you put up and how far away from the house it is.


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## tustinfarm

Calaveras said:


> Any wire longer than about 15' away from that ground is an antenna at 7 MHz. Basically your house wiring is one big random length wire antenna. In order to get an RF ground for your TiVo you'd need to pound a ground rod into the ground through the floor right next to the TiVo and connect it to the ground plane in the TiVo. That ground might actually do something.
> 
> Your best bet is to put ferrite on all the cables going to the TiVo.
> 
> Not that it makes much difference, but I'm curious what antenna you put up and how far away from the house it is.


Indeed, ferrite is really my only chance at reducing the RF ingress into the Tivo. The outdoor HF antenna is an "end fed half wave" type, model EFHW80-10 (myantennas.com), and runs roughly parallel to the house, about 30 feet away...so yes, house wiring (and the _horizontal _run of RG-6 leading to the Tivo) are perfectly placed to "receive" the HF energy. That said, the Tivo does sits about 3 feet above a concrete slab floor, so pounding a ground rod is physically possible....once I drill through the ceramic tile and slab....and then use heavy machinery to get a ground rod pounded through several feet of hard Georgia clay...guess I'll save that option for later.

Thanks all for the useful technical comments, I'll post an update in the future once I achieve my goal of preventing Tivo reboots from RF ingress.


----------



## Channel99

Calaveras said:


> Every time this subject of grounding in reference to RF comes up I see a gross misunderstanding of how it works. Your AC house ground is a fine ground for 60 Hz. It is not a ground for 7 MHz. If you're transmitting within about 200' of your house there will be RF on the house wiring. In most cases there is one earth ground at where the 240V service enters the house. Any wire longer than about 15' away from that ground is an antenna at 7 MHz. Basically your house wiring is one big random length wire antenna. In order to get an RF ground for your TiVo you'd need to pound a ground rod into the ground through the floor right next to the TiVo and connect it to the ground plane in the TiVo. That ground might actually do something.
> 
> Your best bet is to put ferrite on all the cables going to the TiVo.
> 
> Not that it makes much difference, but I'm curious what antenna you put up and how far away from the house it is.


Anything metal will of course pick up signals passively, including a ground wire. But an antenna tuner near the transmitter, adjusted to get the best signal transfer to the feedline to a poorly matched antenna can easily reach the best match when the transmitter's AC or other ground becomes effectively an active element.


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## rabbit73

tustinfarm said:


> Indeed, ferrite is really my only chance at reducing the RF ingress into the Tivo. The outdoor HF antenna is an "end fed half wave" type, model EFHW80-10 (myantennas.com), and runs roughly parallel to the house, about 30 feet away...so yes, house wiring (and the _horizontal _run of RG-6 leading to the Tivo) are perfectly placed to "receive" the HF energy.


End fed antennas are known to create more RFI problems, hot keys, hot mics, and hot rigs than center fed antennas. If you can't try a center fed antenna, consider an artificial ground.

https://www.google.com/search?sourc...-ab..0.17.1586...0i131k1j0i10k1.0.cA7l8toPerQ

https://www.w8ji.com/end-fed_1_2_wave_matching_system_end feed.htm


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## carillon

I have installed an attic antenna, how should it be grounded? Thanks!


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## rabbit73

carillon said:


> I have installed an attic antenna, how should it be grounded? Thanks!


The NEC does not require indoor or attic antennas to be grounded. However, if you have strong signals (like FM in your case) that might cause interference to TV reception, it might be necessary to ground the coax with a grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground.

Also, since the coax is connected to AC operated equipment, grounding the coax will help protect you from leakage current shock if there is an equipment failure.


your previous post
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...-related-hardware-topic-578.html#post56551854


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## carillon

rabbit73 said:


> The NEC does not require indoor or attic antennas to be grounded. However, if you have strong signals (like FM in your case) that might cause interference to TV reception, it might be necessary to ground the coax with a grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground.
> 
> Also, since the coax is connected to AC operated equipment, grounding the coax will help protect you from leakage current shock if there is an equipment failure.
> 
> 
> your previous post
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...-related-hardware-topic-578.html#post56551854


Thanks for the reply. How do I physically do this ground? The electric panel is completely on the other side of the house and I assume that's where the grounding rod will be.


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## ProjectSHO89

carillon said:


> I have installed an attic antenna, how should it be grounded? Thanks!



There is no need or any requirement to ground an attic antenna. You are unlikely to get any benefit from doing so.




> How do I physically do this ground? The electric panel is completely on the other side of the house and I assume that's where the grounding rod will be.


You'll need a very long rounding wire. It has to be physically run to the common grounding point.


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## carillon

ProjectSHO89 said:


> There is no need or any requirement to ground an attic antenna. You are unlikely to get any benefit from doing so.
> 
> 
> You'll need a very long rounding wire. It has to be physically run to the common grounding point.


Thanks for the reply. I think I'll wait and see how it works once we move in later this year.


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## rabbit73

carillon said:


> Thanks for the reply. How do I physically do this ground? The electric panel is completely on the other side of the house and I assume that's where the grounding rod will be.


If the coax is connected to a piece of equipment that has a 3-wire cord that is connected to a properly wired 3-wire outlet, that should ground the coax shield.

If the coax is connected to AC operated equipment that only has a 2-wire cord, it will not be grounded. If you DO have an interference or overload problem, you can make a simple test by connecting the coax grounding block to the house electrical system ground with a spare 3-wire plug inserted in a properly wired 3-wire outlet. Just ONE wire for grounding in that spare plug, please.



















Your FM signals:

http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/9bc6a3ee54/Radar-FM.png


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## carillon

rabbit73 said:


> If the coax is connected to a piece of equipment that has a 3-wire cord that is connected to a properly wired 3-wire outlet, that should ground the coax shield.
> 
> If the coax is connected to AC operated equipment that only has a 2-wire cord, it will not be grounded. If you DO have an interference or overload problem, you can make a simple test by connecting the coax grounding block to the house electrical system ground with a spare 3-wire plug inserted in a properly wired 3-wire outlet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your FM signals:
> 
> 
> http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/9bc6a3ee54/Radar-FM.png


Good to know. The coax will run to my tech closet and connect to a splitter/amp to feed 5 TVs. Not sure if the splitter/amp is available with a 3-prong plug.


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## MeatChicken

carillon said:


> Thanks for the reply. I think I'll wait and see how it works once we move in later this year.


 There are convenient "TV" outlet surge protectors that also have 2 female passthru F connectors that Protect and ground the antenna coax to the ground lug of the AC socket, such as :

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B003GSLLDI/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## bladerunner6

Any recommendations for an outdoor antenna amplifier?

We want to cut the cord but I am having a hard time getting all the stations I want.

I do have an antenna, a Channel Master rated for I think 90 miles.

Thanks.


----------



## rabbit73

bladerunner6 said:


> Any recommendations for an outdoor antenna amplifier?
> 
> We want to cut the cord but I am having a hard time getting all the stations I want.
> 
> I do have an antenna, a Channel Master rated for I think 90 miles.
> 
> Thanks.


Hello, bladerunner6

We would need a lot more information to give you accurate advice about a preamp; at least a location and TVFool report as required in the sticky:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...all-antenna-threads-tvfool-info-1st-post.html

Which stations that you want are hard to get?

What is the model number of the antenna?

Where is the antenna located?

How long is the coax from the antenna to the TV?

You can do a signal report here:
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29


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## tustinfarm

*Antenna analyzer - utility of SWR/impedance/return loss?*

I borrowed an MFJ-226 antenna analyzer from a friend, and aside from using it to check my HF antenna used for _transmitting_ on the amateur radio bands, I got to thinking about its possible utility for checking my TV antenna _receiving _performance. It will only scan up to 230 Mhz, so would cover to hi-VHF...but I'm just wondering if I take the preamp/dist. amp out of the line, would the analyzer measurements for SWR, impedance, return loss etc. be of any utility for assessing the antenna (using 30-2476 for hi-VHF) and/or feed line performance? Or is there minimal utility of these measurements for TV antenna receiving performance?

Bruce KX4AZ


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## Calaveras

Sure, you can measure it but I suspect the SWR will not be as good as you'd like to see. And there's nothing you can do about it. As long as the antennas work then it's okay.


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## bladerunner6

rabbit73 said:


> Hello, bladerunner6
> 
> We would need a lot more information to give you accurate advice about a preamp; at least a location and TVFool report as required in the sticky:
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...all-antenna-threads-tvfool-info-1st-post.html
> 
> Which stations that you want are hard to get?
> 
> What is the model number of the antenna?
> 
> Where is the antenna located?
> 
> How long is the coax from the antenna to the TV?
> 
> You can do a signal report here:
> http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29


Here is my TV Fool report

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9038d5c06a07b5

My difficult to get stations are WOOD-DT and WWMT- NBC and CBS affiliates

The antenna is located on our deck, although I might be able to mount to the side of the house- in on the south side.

The antenna is a Channel Master CM3018.

The length of coax is 50-60 feet.

I was thinking of this amplifier because I do lov Crutchfield.

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_6597777/Channel-Master-7777.html

Thanks so much!


----------



## rabbit73

bladerunner6 said:


> Here is my TV Fool report
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=9038d5c06a07b5
> 
> My difficult to get stations are WOOD-DT and WWMT- NBC and CBS affiliates
> 
> The antenna is located on our deck, although I might be able to mount to the side of the house- in on the south side.
> 
> The antenna is a Channel Master CM3018.


Thank you for the report and details. You will probably need a preamp, but a lot depends upon the actual location of the antenna.

Your report assumes that your antenna will be outside, in the clear, with no trees or buildings in the signal path.

If your antenna is in the clear, and you aimed it at 42 degrees, the 7777 would be overloaded, and so would your tuner. CM does have a caution about overload:
https://www.channelmaster.com/TV_Antenna_Preamplifier_p/cm-7777.htm

The last 7777 that I ordered had a gain of only 24 dB instead of 30 dB. I suspect that they made a silent design change because they had received returns from customers that had used it in strong signal areas.

The best results for an antenna are when it is aimed directly at the transmitter, but if there are trees or buildings in the signal path from 109 degrees, you might not overload your 7777. If it doesn't work for you, then return it.


----------



## bladerunner6

rabbit73 said:


> Thank you for the report and details. You will probably need a preamp, but a lot depends upon the actual location of the antenna.
> 
> Your report assumes that your antenna will be outside, in the clear, with no trees or buildings in the signal path.
> 
> If your antenna is in the clear, and you aimed it at 42 degrees, the 7777 would be overloaded, and so would your tuner. CM does have a caution about overload:
> https://www.channelmaster.com/TV_Antenna_Preamplifier_p/cm-7777.htm
> 
> The last 7777 that I ordered had a gain of only 24 dB instead of 30 dB. I suspect that they made a silent design change because they had received returns from customers that had used it in strong signal areas.
> 
> The best results for an antenna are when it is aimed directly at the transmitter, but if there are trees or buildings in the signal path from 109 degrees, you might not overload your 7777. If it doesn't work for you, then return it.


I should add I do have trees in the way.

Also, I did try a cheap internal pre-amp and that didn’t help but someone suggested I try an external one that is closer to the antenna.

So should I go for the Channelmaster pre-amp or a lower gain model.

Thanks so much, you have been helpful.


----------



## holl_ands

tustinfarm said:


> I borrowed an MFJ-226 antenna analyzer from a friend, and aside from using it to check my HF antenna used for _transmitting_ on the amateur radio bands, I got to thinking about its possible utility for checking my TV antenna _receiving _performance. It will only scan up to 230 Mhz, so would cover to hi-VHF...but I'm just wondering if I take the preamp/dist. amp out of the line, would the analyzer measurements for SWR, impedance, return loss etc. be of any utility for assessing the antenna (using 30-2476 for hi-VHF) and/or feed line performance? Or is there minimal utility of these measurements for TV antenna receiving performance?
> 
> Bruce KX4AZ


 I analyzed "similar" Stellar Labs Hi-VHF 9-El Yagi (30-2475), which exhibited EXCELLENT SWR:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/hivhf9elfdyagistellarlabs

IF you (or anyone else) could provide detailed Measurements and PHOTOS (with Ruler also shown), then I would gladly do the same for the 12-El 30-2476. But since 9-El was Excellent, I would expect 12-El would NOT have any SWR Issues.

===============================================
EXCESSIVE SWR can result in Small-Moderate amounts of Miss-Match Loss at integers of 1/2-Wavelength along the line(I try to keep SWR under 2.7, corresponding to Miss-Match Loss under 1.0 dB)....which would ONLY be an issue for those Channels in which the Null Occurs on the END of the Coax...which would be fairly RARE. However, Dr. Odev Bendov (former Dielectric TX Antenna Engineer), Dr. Yiwan Wu (Head of CRC's DTV Division), et.al. determined that EXCESSIVE SWR caused an ADDITIONAL Loss of Sensitivity in DIGITAL Signals (they miss-labeled it as an Increase in Noise Figure), which is readily measured in his TX (and RX) Antennas using an EVM (Error Vector Magnitude) Digital Waveform Meter [EVM is also related to MER (Modulation Error Ratio) measurement]:
https://www.electronicdesign.com/engineering-essentials/understanding-error-vector-magnitude [EVM Explained, 8VSB is Amplitude ONLY]
http://avateq.com/dat/content/image/AVQ1020ATSC_v2_main.jpg [EVM meaures 8VSB "EYE" Opening]

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...ction-measurement-and-performance-indices.pdf
https://www.researchgate.net/public...rediction_measurement_and_performance_indices

Fortunately, EVM degradation is very minimal when using a Mast-Mounted Preamp, since signal reflections up and down the very short Coax do NOT result in significant delay times.

===============================================
In the HF (and other Bands), an ANTENNA TUNER is typically used to improve SWR mis-match to the Antenna...it consists of various L-C Networks in different configurations. If you KNOW the measurements of an Antenna, then a 4nec2 Model can be constructed to display Gain, SWR, etc vs Frequency.....the 4nec2 program also includes a "L/Pi/T Network" Calculator which can be used to calculate Performance for various Networks [I would need to walk someone thru the procedure]. You can also include "Loading" Cards in the 4nec2 File to TRY different Networks...the simplest of which would be a SMALL amount of Capacitance across the Antenna Leads [NOT obvious cuz Card is for ADMITTANCE and NOT Capacitance or Inductance].


----------



## rabbit73

bladerunner6 said:


> I should add I do have trees in the way.


Trees block TV signals, especially when they are wet.


> Also, I did try a cheap internal pre-amp and that didn’t help but someone suggested I try an external one that is closer to the antenna.


What someone told you is true; a preamp is usually (but not always, if you need the attenuation of the coax*) more effective when it is mounted close to the antenna.


> The antenna is located on our deck, although I might be able to mount to the side of the house- in on the south side.


Which side of the house is the deck on, the rear? Which direction does it face, south? Is it a 2nd floor deck?


> So should I go for the Channelmaster pre-amp or a lower gain model.


I wish I could give you a precise answer, but I don't have enough information about your location. If I were there, I could make some measurements with my signal level meter and see if the signal paths were clear of obstructions. If you could show us some photos of the antenna location and what the signal path looks like from 109, that might help. Ideally, I would like to look at a satellite view of your location to see the green signal lines, but you would need to give me the coordinates of your antenna on the deck in a PM.

The problem with the 7777 is that if it is even partially overloaded by the strong signals, it becomes more difficult to receive the weaker signals. Channel Master also makes the 7778 which is a medium gain preamp, and they make the 7777HD which has high and low gain settings. I don't like the way the 7777HD mounts because it looks less protected from the weather than the 7777 and the 7778 which have the coax connections on the bottom. I have used the 7777HD with an indoor antenna and it works well. Channel Master has a new 7778HD, but I haven't tested it yet. 

You must be prepared to make some more experiments to see what works well for your location. 

I don't have your exact location, but an FM Fool report indicates that your local FM transmitters might interfere with the reception of WOOD-DT and WWMT.
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/1a23d90848/Radar-FM.png

Some preamps have an FM filter, but it might not have enough attenuation for strong FM signals; an external FM filter can be added between the antenna and the input of the preamp.

*I recall an interesting case on the Canadian forum. The poster was getting good results with his preamp mounted at the lower end of his 50 ft coax. He moved his preamp up near the antenna, and it didn't work as well there. He was upset set because he thought it SHOULD be near the antenna. We told him to put it back down below where it worked better. It turns out that it worked better below because the attenuation of the coax between the antenna and the input of the preamp was just right to optimize his antenna gain and preamp for the signals at his location. To put in technical terms, his preamp SFDR (Spurious-Free Dynamic Range) matched his Signal Dynamic Range plus 15 dB for the minimum required SNR for his Weakest Desired Signal.


----------



## statmanmi

*To bladerunner6 near Holland MI*



rabbit73 said:


> Trees block TV signals, especially when they are wet.
> What someone told you is true; a preamp is usually (but not always, if you need the attenuation of the coax) more effective when it is mounted close to the antenna.
> Which side of the house is the deck on, the rear? Which direction does it face, south? Is it a 2nd floor deck?
> I wish I could give you a precise answer, but I don't have enough information about your location. If I were there, I could make some measurements with my signal level meter and see if the signal paths were clear of obstructions. If you could show us some photos of the antenna location and what the signal path looks like from 109, that might help. Ideally, I would like to look at a satellite view of your location to see the green signal lines, but you would need to give me the coordinates of your antenna on the deck in a PM.
> 
> The problem with the 7777 is that if it is even partially overloaded by the strong signals, it becomes more difficult to receive the weaker signals. Channel Master also makes the 7778 which is a medium gain preamp, and they make the 7777HD which has high and low gain settings. I don't like the way it mounts because it looks less protected from the weather than the 7777 and the 7778 which have the coax connections on the bottom. I have used the 7777HD with an indoor antenna and it works well. Channel Master has a new 7778HD, but I haven't tested it yet.
> 
> You must be prepared to make some more experiments to see what works well for your location.
> 
> I don't have your exact location, but an FM Fool report indicates that your local FM transmitters might interfere with the reception of WOOD-DT and WWMT.
> http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/1a23d90848/Radar-FM.png


Hello fellow West Michigander bladerunner6!

rabbit73 provides all of us sage wisdom on this and other sites. Plus he's prompt with his thoughts. 

He mentions FM interference--that came to mind for me, too.

Further, since your TVFool brought light that you were in the West Michigan market, I recommend we continue your topic there. I've typed up a rather lengthy (but hopefully insightful) reply:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-l...84-grand-rapids-mi-hdtv-274.html#post56800092

Thanks again for everything rabbit73!

Cheers,
Statmanmi


----------



## MagicKnights

Could somebody please give me some advice on the type of antenna I should get, whether to get an amp/preamp, and the OTA DVR that would best suit me? This is my first time setting up an outdoor antenna and I'd like to make sure I get all the right equipment.

I live in Florida, so it rains quite a bit down here, and I will be mounting the antenna to my house's fascia. I have 3 TVs and would like to have them hooked into a whole house DVR (I've got a NAS for storing the recordings). The stations I'm targeting are all UHF, are around 20 miles away, and between 108-115° ESE of me. I attached my results from TV Fool.


----------



## rabbit73

MagicKnights said:


> Could somebody please give me some advice on the type of antenna I should get, whether to get an amp/preamp, and the OTA DVR that would best suit me? This is my first time setting up an outdoor antenna and I'd like to make sure I get all the right equipment. The stations I'm targeting are all UHF, are around 20 miles away, and between 108-115° ESE of me. I attached my results from TV Fool.


Hello, MagicKnights

Thank you for the report image, but the sticky requires a link to a TVFool report and your location.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...all-antenna-threads-tvfool-info-1st-post.html

I estimate your location to be in Longwood, north of Orlando.

There is no UHF NBC channel at the ESE. There are 3 WESH transmitters. 
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WESH

The UHF WESH is to the north, but your antenna will be aimed ESE. You will need a UHF/VHF-High combo antenna for NBC on real channel 11. I suggest the Antennas Direct C2VJ. It is being replaced by the C2MAX, which doesn't come with a reflector; I prefer the older C2VJ for your location, but it is hard to find.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007RH5GZI/ref=psdc_172665_t1_B01LXGC87U


If there are any trees in the signal path, they will interfere with reception.

If the antenna is outside, the coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety and to reject interference. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge which will tend to discourage a strike, but the system will not survive a direct strike. 










Because of UHF Repack by the FCC, there will be channel changes in your area:
https://www.rabbitears.info/repackc...&state=&mktid=26&owner=&sort=&ph=&lss=&status=

Don't be surprised if your question gets moved by the moderator to the local reception thread.


I will leave the DVR advice to others who know more about it than I do.


----------



## tylerSC

MagicKnights said:


> Could somebody please give me some advice on the type of antenna I should get, whether to get an amp/preamp, and the OTA DVR that would best suit me? This is my first time setting up an outdoor antenna and I'd like to make sure I get all the right equipment.
> 
> I live in Florida, so it rains quite a bit down here, and I will be mounting the antenna to my house's fascia. I have 3 TVs and would like to have them hooked into a whole house DVR (I've got a NAS for storing the recordings). The stations I'm targeting are all UHF, are around 20 miles away, and between 108-115° ESE of me. I attached my results from TV Fool.


I recently helped a friend with an antenna in Melbourne Fla back in June. All the Orlando UHF stations were very easy to receive with an indoor antenna, except WESH Channel 2 on VHF channel 11 was impossible to decode inside the house. I placed a Marathon Antenna I had ordered on his outside patio and it pulled in the problem WESH signal very strong with a full 10 bars on the Samsung signal meter. So a good VHF antenna outside with an amp may be the best hope for pulling in WESH, as digital VHF can be problematic.

The Marathon Antenna is a good UHF flat panel with an added dipole for VHF. It also has a built in preamp which gives it stronger gain than the nearly identical Antop 400BV which uses an external inline amp instead. If necessary you can add a Channel Master distribution amp down the line to split the signal, but the Marathon amp may be strong enough for a regular splitter. The Marathon antenna worked very well at his location in Melbourne and it is a good, discreet, compact antenna. Sold on Amazon.

But there may be other choices such as Winegard 7694 or Clearstream 2MAX but depends on location and preference. And with those antennas you may need to add an amp.


----------



## rabbit73

MagicKnights said:


> Could somebody please give me some advice on the type of antenna I should get, whether to get an amp/preamp,


Use a preamp with caution. Your signals are strong enough to overload a preamp with an outdoor antenna. Try it without first.


----------



## rviele

rabbit73 said:


> Trees block TV signals, especially when they are wet.
> What someone told you is true; a preamp is usually (but not always, if you need the attenuation of the coax*) more effective when it is mounted close to the antenna.
> Which side of the house is the deck on, the rear? Which direction does it face, south? Is it a 2nd floor deck?
> I wish I could give you a precise answer, but I don't have enough information about your location. If I were there, I could make some measurements with my signal level meter and see if the signal paths were clear of obstructions. If you could show us some photos of the antenna location and what the signal path looks like from 109, that might help. Ideally, I would like to look at a satellite view of your location to see the green signal lines, but you would need to give me the coordinates of your antenna on the deck in a PM.
> 
> The problem with the 7777 is that if it is even partially overloaded by the strong signals, it becomes more difficult to receive the weaker signals. Channel Master also makes the 7778 which is a medium gain preamp, and they make the 7777HD which has high and low gain settings. I don't like the way the 7777HD mounts because it looks less protected from the weather than the 7777 and the 7778 which have the coax connections on the bottom. I have used the 7777HD with an indoor antenna and it works well. Channel Master has a new 7778HD, but I haven't tested it yet.
> 
> You must be prepared to make some more experiments to see what works well for your location.
> 
> I don't have your exact location, but an FM Fool report indicates that your local FM transmitters might interfere with the reception of WOOD-DT and WWMT.
> http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/1a23d90848/Radar-FM.png
> 
> Some preamps have an FM filter, but it might not have enough attenuation for strong FM signals; an external FM filter can be added between the antenna and the input of the preamp.
> 
> *I recall an interesting case on the Canadian forum. The poster was getting good results with his preamp mounted at the lower end of his 50 ft coax. He moved his preamp up near the antenna, and it didn't work as well there. He was upset set because he thought it SHOULD be near the antenna. We told him to put it back down below where it worked better. It turns out that it worked better below because the attenuation of the coax between the antenna and the input of the preamp was just right to optimize his antenna gain and preamp for the signals at his location. To put in technical terms, his preamp SFDR (Spurious-Free Dynamic Range) matched his Signal Dynamic Range plus 15 dB for the minimum required SNR for his Weakest Desired Signal.


what does one do when their expensive antenna system gets knocked down by a hurricane?
tjv


----------



## rabbit73

rviele said:


> what does one do when their expensive antenna system gets knocked down by a hurricane?
> tjv


Is that a hypothetical question, or did it happen to you in Havre de Grace, MD?

I would get very upset, clean up the mess, start thinking about a temporary antenna so I could get at least something on the TV, and then get an estimate for a replacement system.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

rviele said:


> what does one do when their expensive antenna system gets knocked down by a hurricane?
> tjv


 Either file a claim against your homeowner's insurance (if loss exceeds your deductible) or else suck it up and fix it out of pocket. Same for any other covered (or not covered) loss due to a storm. It's all part of recovering from a storm event.


----------



## rviele

rabbit73 said:


> Is that a hypothetical question, or did it happen to you in Havre de Grace, MD?
> 
> I would get very upset, clean up the mess, start thinking about a temporary antenna so I could get at least something on the TV, and then get an estimate for a replacement system.


actually it did happen to me. twice.
rjv


----------



## wiivile

What would cause two TVs, one 10 years old and one brand new, to have different levels of success receiving channels with the same external indoor antenna in the same location? My brand new TV can't pick up the channels my ten-year-old TV can, with the same external indoor antenna in the same location. How can I ensure I buy a TV that can receive these channels with my antenna?


----------



## rabbit73

The sensitivity of TV tuners can vary a lot. Unfortunately, there are no published tuner sensitivity test results to guide you. 

The ATSC has published tuner sensitivity guidelines, but they are not mandatory.

ATSC Recommended Practice:
Receiver Performance Guidelines
Document A/74:2010, 7 April 2010

RECEIVER PERFORMANCE GUIDELINES




> 5.1 Sensitivity





> A DTV receiver should achieve a bit error rate in the transport stream of no worse than 3x10E-6 (i.e., the FCC Advisory Committee on Advanced Television Service, ACATS, Threshold of Visibility, TOV) for input RF signal levels directly to the tuner from –83 dBm to –5 dBm for both the VHF and UHF bands.


When the digital to analog converter boxes (CECBs) came out 10 years ago, they had to meet government specs to qualify for the coupon program, so they had the best tuners for OTA. Slowly, the TV tuners became just as sensitive. 

Now, the pendulum is swinging in the other direction. The TV manufacturers aren't concerned about OTA tuner sensitivity because most users have their TV connected to a cable box with an HDMI cable. Even worse, some "TVs" don't even have a tuner. They are called displays; we used to call them monitors.

The only way to be sure is to test a TV before buying.

The way I test tuner sensitivity is to set up two TVs with a splitter and a variable attenuator. I increase the attenuation to make the signal weaker to the point of signal dropout. The TV that drops out last is the winner.

My Sony TVs have good tuner sensitivity with my indoor antenna. What brands are you using?

A better antenna, a better antenna location, or a preamp might help with your problem channels. Another alternative is to buy an external tuner, like the Channel Master 7004, for your new TV.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/186-...908-channel-master-cm-7004-converter-box.html


----------



## Primestar31

wiivile said:


> What would cause two TVs, one 10 years old and one brand new, to have different levels of success receiving channels with the same external indoor antenna in the same location? My brand new TV can't pick up the channels my ten-year-old TV can, with the same external indoor antenna in the same location. How can I ensure I buy a TV that can receive these channels with my antenna?



Are you simply manually unscrewing the antenna connection off the back of one tv set, and screwing it on to the other tv set and then running a scan? Or are you using some sort of antenna splitter device, and two coaxes, one running to each tv set at the same time?


It makes a difference in what exactly you are doing for this scenario.


Please elaborate a little more.


----------



## wiivile

Primestar31 said:


> Are you simply manually unscrewing the antenna connection off the back of one tv set, and screwing it on to the other tv set and then running a scan? Or are you using some sort of antenna splitter device, and two coaxes, one running to each tv set at the same time?
> 
> 
> It makes a difference in what exactly you are doing for this scenario.
> 
> 
> Please elaborate a little more.



Simply manually screwing and unscrewing and running a scan each time it is screwed/unscrewed.


----------



## Primestar31

wiivile said:


> Simply manually screwing and unscrewing and running a scan each time it is screwed/unscrewed.



Ok, then Rabbit is 100% correct with his info.


----------



## wiivile

rabbit73 said:


> The sensitivity of TV tuners can vary a lot. Unfortunately, there are no published tuner sensitivity test results to guide you.
> 
> The ATSC has published tuner sensitivity guidelines, but they are not mandatory.
> 
> ATSC Recommended Practice:
> Receiver Performance Guidelines
> Document A/74:2010, 7 April 2010
> 
> RECEIVER PERFORMANCE GUIDELINES
> 
> 
> 
> When the digital to analog converter boxes (CECBs) came out 10 years ago, they had to meet government specs to qualify for the coupon program, so they had the best tuners for OTA. Slowly, the TV tuners became just as sensitive.
> 
> Now, the pendulum is swinging in the other direction. The TV manufacturers aren't concerned about OTA tuner sensitivity because most users have their TV connected to a cable box with an HDMI cable. Even worse, some "TVs" don't even have a tuner. They are called displays; we used to call them monitors.
> 
> The only way to be sure is to test a TV before buying.
> 
> The way I test tuner sensitivity is to set up two TVs with a splitter and a variable attenuator. I increase the attenuation to make the signal weaker to the point of signal dropout. The TV that drops out last is the winner.
> 
> My Sony TVs have good tuner sensitivity with my indoor antenna. What brands are you using?
> 
> A better antenna, a better antenna location, or a preamp might help with your problem channels. Another alternative is to buy an external tuner, like the Channel Master 7004, for your new TV.
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/186-...908-channel-master-cm-7004-converter-box.html



Thanks. Old TV is a Panasonic TC-32LX34. New TV is a TCL 55R617.


I'm surprised that - given how thorough TV review are these days on sites like Rtings - no attention is given to TV tuners. With cordcutting being in vogue, I thought the number of people relying on OTA signals + Netflix would be increasing.


I've already returned the TCL tv for its tuner performance and unrelated LCD-related quality issues, but I'm scared to buy something else knowing that tuner performance can vary so much. I didn't know an external tuner was an option though, thanks. Less than ideal but it may save an otherwise great TV from a poor tuner?


----------



## ncsercs

Others might (hope) they chime in but I would recommend either an LG or Samsung. Their tuners are known to be very good.


----------



## onwisconsin

Sorry if this has been posted already... 

Does anyone have any experience/ tech info on the new Kitz Tech UHF antenna(s) and how they compare to the DB8-E and alike? 


http://www.kitztech.com/products.html


----------



## ProjectSHO89

onwisconsin said:


> Sorry if this has been posted already...
> 
> Does anyone have any experience/ tech info on the new Kitz Tech UHF antenna(s) and how they compare to the DB8-E and alike?
> 
> 
> http://www.kitztech.com/products.html


 I'd suspect it's impossible to do a direct comparison based on the very sketchy "specs" provided. A "total" of 34 dB of gain might be from a 36 dB amplifier and a -2 dB antenna (extreme example). Since he used the same photo for all three variants and the physical dimensions are listed as being the same at about 21" tall, 26" wide, and 5"deep, I'd place the antenna portion itself as roughly equivalent to an Antennas Direct C2V (or newer C2 Max) without the reflectors. His VHF elements might perform a bit as reflectors for the UHF loops so there might be a slight F/R ratio.

No comparison to an 8-bay, a 4-bay, or any conventional stick antenna that is over 3' in length.


----------



## Intheswamp

Not enough metal there to be equivalent to an 8-bay antenna or even a 4-bay. I agree with it being roughly equivalent to a CS 2MAX that has a amp attached. It's probably well constructed...maybe. They definitely need to do a better job of supplying specs for these, though, especially at the price they're asking.


----------



## Primestar31

onwisconsin said:


> Sorry if this has been posted already...
> 
> Does anyone have any experience/ tech info on the new Kitz Tech UHF antenna(s) and how they compare to the DB8-E and alike?
> 
> 
> http://www.kitztech.com/products.html



My personal opinion, is buy any antenna you want, and then put a Kitztech KT-200 preamp on it. I've used the KT-200-Coax model for many years now, and it's the best I've seen for my needs.


----------



## gbynum

wiivile said:


> With cordcutting being in vogue, I thought the number of people relying on OTA signals + Netflix would be increasing.


I agree with you ... BUT ... I don't think most people (not including AVS folks) consider OTA, rather just some forms of streaming. We'll have to see.


----------



## holl_ands

Although I do NOT (yet) have detailed measurements of KT-COMBO from which to build a 4nec2 Model, I DID build a 4nec2 File and used nikiml's Optimizer to investigate expected Gain for "best" Dimensions.....I found Raw Gain of about 10 to 11 dBi....so comparable to A-D C2 (series) Low Gain Antennas.


----------



## rabbit73

*Receiving VHF-Low Channels with an Indoor Antenna*

I have been trying to help cyclist44 on another forum. He lives in Thunder Bay Ontario, and has three OTA channels available. He is restricted to using an indoor antenna and is able to receive RF 9 with a flat antenna, but no luck with 2 and 4. This is his report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=9038a283a43f7f










I was interested in his problem because I am also restricted to an indoor antenna and have been doing experiments to learn how to optimize indoor reception. I suggested he try extending rabbit ears with wires to 88", buy a Winegard HD7000R which has extensions for VHF-Low, or build a folded dipole for channel 3. He asked how to build a folded dipole. I showed him the channel 3 folded dipole I had built to measure the ambient noise level at my location since that is the primary limiting factor for VHF-Low reception.










I clamped the 6' mast to my platform cart:


----------



## rabbit73

Here is a closeup of the terminal block (Cinch 2142, takes up to 10 gauge wire)










This shows how the wire goes around the end. I used masking tape instead of nylon clamps to hold the wire:










The antenna can be taken apart for storage:










He told me he wanted to try an FM twin lead folded dipole first. 
https://www.amazon.com/Axis-PET-10-8110-Dipole-Antenna/dp/B000EIOQBM

I told him it is a little short for channel 3, but it might work if his indoor signals are strong enough.


----------



## rabbit73

*Measurements of Indoor Ambient Noise*

I next made some measurements of the electrical noise level to find out how strong a signal would need to be for good reception with my indoor antennas.

 Noise level on channel 3 with channel 3 folded dipole: -67 dBm
 Signal would need to be at least -52 dBm to allow for the minimum required SNR of 15 dB
 Your (cyclist44) report lists your signals at about -33 dBm, 19 dB stronger; looks possible

 The tuner noise is irrelevant because it is buried in the ambient noise at -100 dBm

 Electrical noise on VHF can come from CFL lamps, LED lamps, electric motors, switchmode AC adapters like for laptops and battery chargers, hair dryers, and ignition noise.

 Noise on channel 10 using folded dipole of GE 34792 indoor/attic antenna: -91 dBm
 Signal would need to be at least -76 dBm to allow for the minimum required SNR of 15 dB

 Again, the tuner noise is irrelevant because it is buried in the ambient noise at -100 dBm

 Noise on channel 36 using UHF yagi of GE 34792 antenna: -106 dBm, which is the thermal noise floor for a 6 MHz TV signal 
 Signal would need to be at least -85 dBm to allow for the tuner noise at -100 dBm and the minimum required SNR of 15 dB

 So, you can see why there aren't many TV channels on VHF-Low 2-6, because of the high noise level from electrical interference. There are three advantages to VHF-Low: Not much transmitter power is needed for the same coverage area, the signals can make it over rough terrain easier, and the building penetration signal loss is low.

This chart shows why it is more difficult to receive VHF-Low channels because of the higher noise levels on VHF. Stronger signals are needed to overcome the noise:


----------



## HerbieHightower

HerbieHightower said:


> Thank you very much! Not much of this makes sense to me (LOL I'm an old man now) so this clears quite a bit up.


I want to thank all of you very much for all this information. I've been watching TV now on my antenna with no problems and great reception by using all your suggestions! I found some cheap Comcast internet only prices and added DirecTV Now for $25 (because we have AT&T cell phones) and greatly reduced my monthly bills. I cant thank you all enough.


----------



## rabbit73

Thank you for the report, Herbie. Glad that we were able to improve your reception and reduce your bills.


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> I have been trying to help cyclist44 on another forum. He lives in Thunder Bay Ontario, and has three OTA channels available. He is restricted to using an indoor antenna and is able to receive RF 9 with a flat antenna, but no luck with 2 and 4.



Indoor antenna low VHF is at a serious disadvantage compared to high VHF and UHF indoor antennas. The only antenna that really works for low VHF is an outdoor antenna and then, except for noise, it actually has an advantage. Time to retell some of my low VHF stories from the analog days.

In the 80's and 90's I lived in northern Fremont, CA which was a excellent location for OTA. Current TV Fool report for my old address:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=90383e1478349e

I had a average sized combo antenna at 20'. I could see Sutro Tower and Mt. San Bruno standing on my roof. A friend used to tell me I had the best picture quality he had ever seen. Not a trace of noise or ghosts even on channel 2.

A neighbor a couple of houses away was getting interference from my ham radio station so I went over to look at their TV. They had rabbit ears on top of the TV. Their low VHF picture quality was awful, weak and ghosty pictures. High VHF and UHF was better. Their signals must have been something on the order of 30 dB down from mine.


When my parents moved to Anaheim, CA in the early 70's their house came wired with an attic antenna. Low VHF stations were barely watchable. Here's the current TV Fool report for that address.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=9038c6cebb3c4e

I put up an outdoor antenna for them and all their stations were great.


Between the large signal attenuation seen on indoor low VHF, much increased noise on low VHF and the multipath issues with DTV using indoor antennas in general, low VHF indoors is very difficult. I've given up on it and tell people they need an outdoor antenna if low VHF reception is a must. Even if ATSC 3.0 improves the multipath issue, it won't change the attenuation or noise issues.

My small 8 element low VHF LPDA (see attachment) receives the 3 low VHF station that are possible here. Two are over 100 miles away and one is 54 miles away with a 2 edge path.


----------



## rabbit73

Thank you for sharing your experience with low VHF reception.

The choices cyclist44 has are an indoor antenna for 2 and 4 or nothing for 2 and 4.

One advantage of digital OTA is that the minimum SNR is 15 dB, as compared to the analog C/N of about 45 dB.

I connected the CH3 analog output of my CM 7004 converter box to my TV and attenuated the signal to just before I saw snow, which was at -15 dBmV (-64 dBm to a first approximation). The RF output of the 7004 before attenuation is about +10 dBmV (-39 dBm to a first approximation). 

Then, I connected the output of the 7004 to a second CH 3 antenna, and used the first CH3 antenna for reception. I couldn't understand why the received signal had to be much stronger until I realized that the receiving antenna was picking up the ambient noise and the analog signal that had to be above that noise.



Calaveras said:


> Between the large signal attenuation seen on indoor low VHF, much increased noise on low VHF and the multipath issues with DTV using indoor antennas in general, low VHF indoors is very difficult. I've given up on it and tell people they need an outdoor antenna if low VHF reception is a must. Even if ATSC 3.0 improves the multipath issue, it won't change the attenuation or noise issues.


Yes, indoor reception of low VHF is difficult.

I don't have a low VHF channel in my area to make a building penetration test of indoor vs outdoor antenna location, but I have found that my building penetration loss for VHF-High is much less than for UHF. The Jim Creek VLF transmitter is able to communicate with submarines submerged in salt water.


----------



## holl_ands

As shown above, Lo-VHF Band has a LOT of Man-Made Noise that can prevent reception. LCD/LED Lightbulbs, Fluorescent Lights and Dimmer Switches can be quite bad, so you should FIRST go around and turn each one OFF to see if you can identify the culprit so you can TRY a NAME-BRAND replacement....or change to zero-EMI HALOGEN light bulb(s)....which I prefer for reading anyway. After that you should shut OFF all of the house Circuit Breakers except the one the TV is on and see if there is any improvement....if so, turn each Circuit Breaker back ON to help identify the culprit (might be ANY Electronic Device, incl. HVAC or something else with a Fan).

===================================================
Lo-VHF Band Folded Dipoles need to be FAT, e.g. 1/2-in Copper Tubing to cover Ch3-6 and Ch2-6 (although SWR is still a bit High)....and AWG24 Twin-Lead only has acceptable SWR across ONE Channel, which rules out one spanning both Ch2 and Ch4....which would likely require at least AWG12/10 (based on Ch6 AWG10 results):
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/vhffoldeddipole

Fol. HIGHER GAIN Lo-VHF DIY Antennas are FLAT, so can be hidden behind furniture or curtains (if in correct orientation)...the last two Directional Antennas might also suppress NOISE:
Hourglass-Loops are VERY simple to build with AWG10 and do NOT require Very FAT Elements:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/lovhfhourglassloopnorefl
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/lovhffmhourglassloop
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/ch2ch3hourglassloopreflrods [HGL + 3 Reflector Rods, perhaps in ATTIC]
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/lovhfhourglassloop5reflrods [HGL + 5 Reflector Rods, perhaps in ATTIC]

FYI: Fol. DIY Hi-VHF Hourglass-Loop is Optimized for Hi-VHF Gain and SWR, but also provides significant Gain on Lo-VHF Ch2-6....albeit with excessive SWR that MAY or MAY NOT be a problem in any given situtation....so you'll just have to try it:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/hivhfhourglassloop


----------



## Skylinestar

My living room wall outlet has this port: Shneider MX600 / MTN466097. The top port (F connector) says Satellite, the lower left (bellinglee) says TV, the lower right (bellinglee) says FM.
https://www.schneider-electric.com/...le-socket-outlet-insert,-3-outputs-tv+fm+sat/
https://www.elbutik.se/product.html/slututtag-sat-1db











RG6 cable is pulled from this wall port to the rooftop where I will hookup my tv antenna. I did continuity check from this to the RG6 cable end at the rooftop. Only the top port (F-connector labelled as Satellite) has continuity to the cable end at the rooftop. The lower 2 bellinglee ports (TV & FM) don't have continuity.  I thought all 3 ports are in parallel. I plugged in the antenna in the rooftop and I connected my tv to the F connector (labelled satellite) and get NO SIGNAL. Then I connected my tv to the lower left bellinglee port (labelled TV). OMG, it received signal. Why the bellinglee ports (TV) doesn't have continuity and still receive TV antenna signal but the F-connector port (Satellite) get continuity but no tv signal?  Is there special circuit inside this MTN466097 that filter the signal and pass it to the appropriate port, such as satellite signal (certain frequency) goes to the F connector, and terestrial tv signal goes to the bellinglee connector? 

Should I ditch this type of wall port and replace it with a typical port?


----------



## SFischer1

Skylinestar said:


> ... Then I connected my tv to the lower left bellinglee port (labelled TV). OMG, it received signal.
> ...
> Should I ditch this type of wall port and replace it with a typical port?


Why force the next person who might move in to loose satellite.

You do not need DC conductivity, most signal splitters have none.

First see if you receive the stations you want.

(A TVFool report helps up help you. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29 )

SHF


----------



## Skylinestar

SFischer1 said:


> First see if you receive the stations you want.
> 
> SHF


No. I don't get any signal if I plug the tv to the port labelled Satellite (F-connector). The port labelled TV works though. Hence my curiosity. Do you think there's a filtering circuit?


----------



## SFischer1

Skylinestar said:


> No. I don't get any signal if I plug the tv to the port labelled Satellite (F-connector). The port labelled TV works though. Hence my curiosity. Do you think there's a filtering circuit?





> How to wire a Belling-Lee connector
> 
> The humble Belling-Lee UHF plug is widely used in Europe2 as a TV and FM connector, commonly known as a TV aerial plug. The correct method of wiring isn't obvious, and with digital terrestrial televison demands are being made of this connector that were never envisaged by the Enfield Belling Lee company in 1922.


Having stumbled on this, your plan to replace with a F-connector is the way to go unless you are in Europe, your links are to Europe.

Although using a Belling-Lee connector made today may not be more than getting an adapter and plugging it in.

Actually having said the full name of a F connector (F---) trying to use one so many times, I would go with an adaptor. 



> Is there special circuit inside this MTN466097 that filter the signal and pass it to the appropriate port


Yes there is RF splitting going inside that three type outlet, getting OTA TV reception with the connector labeled "TV" and FM music from the one marked "FM" would be expected but having an actual filter for the FM band a little bit surprising.



> Frekvensområde
> 
> Satellit:
> 950-2050 MHZ
> VHF/UHF:
> 47-860 MHz
> FM:
> 88-125 MHz


The satellite companies don't want you to cut their cord, installing what you have is very surprising and I am having trouble understanding.

Did your test show DC conductivity from the roof to the outlet for the center conductor? The Satellite frequencies listed are as expected, but very far away from DC.

Perhaps there is a amplifier powered from somewhere, have you found all the outlets.

Hopefully someone with more specific knowledge about Satellite connections can help more.


SHF


----------



## Skylinestar

SFischer1 said:


> Yes there is RF splitting going inside that three type outlet, getting OTA TV reception with the connector labeled "TV" and FM music from the one marked "FM" would be expected but having an actual filter for the FM band a little bit surprising.
> 
> Did your test show DC conductivity from the roof to the outlet for the center conductor? The Satellite frequencies listed are as expected, but very far away from DC.
> 
> Perhaps there is a amplifier powered from somewhere, have you found all the outlets.
> 
> SHF


I just short the center pin to the shield on the wall port (F connector labelled satellite), then climb up the rooftop (the other end of cable) and measure the resistance from the center core to the shield with a basic multimeter and get approx 5 ohm. Did the same on the TV port and zero continuity (O.L.). I don't have any advanced meter to test.

There's no additional amp/switch in the middle of signal chain. Just a plain wiring.


----------



## SFischer1

Skylinestar said:


> I just short the center pin to the shield on the wall port (F connector labelled satellite), then climb up the rooftop (the other end of cable) and measure the resistance from the center core to the shield with a basic multimeter and get approx 5 ohm. Did the same on the TV port and zero continuity (O.L.). I don't have any advanced meter to test.
> 
> There's no additional amp/switch in the middle of signal chain. Just a plain wiring.


If the snow is soon to be expected get your antenna up!

While a better report perhaps is: https://www.fcc.gov/media/engineering/dtvmaps

Posting a *LINK* to your TVFool will help us with other problems: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29 

If a Satellite receiver was installed then OTA may have problems. 

"zero DC continuity" means nothing in the RF world, a physical connection to the "TV" will allow what channels actually can be received by an antenna. (Or a FM Radio.)

SHF


----------



## rabbit73

A TV Fool report for Borneo Island?


----------



## rabbit73

Skylinestar said:


> My living room wall outlet has this port: Shneider MX600 / MTN466097. The top port (F connector) says Satellite, the lower left (bellinglee) says TV, the lower right (bellinglee) says FM.
> https://www.schneider-electric.com/...le-socket-outlet-insert,-3-outputs-tv+fm+sat/
> https://www.elbutik.se/product.html/slututtag-sat-1db
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RG6 cable is pulled from this wall port to the rooftop where I will hookup my tv antenna. I did continuity check from this to the RG6 cable end at the rooftop. Only the top port (F-connector labelled as Satellite) has continuity to the cable end at the rooftop. The lower 2 bellinglee ports (TV & FM) don't have continuity.  I thought all 3 ports are in parallel.


That is normal for your device. They are not in parallel; what you have is a triplexer. It passes three bands of frequencies. The top connector shows DC continuity because a satellite LNB needs DC voltage. 


> I plugged in the antenna in the rooftop and I connected my tv to the F connector (labelled satellite) and get NO SIGNAL.


You got no TV signals because the triplexer only passes 950 to 2050 MHz to that connector. 


> Then I connected my tv to the lower left bellinglee port (labelled TV). OMG, it received signal. Why the bellinglee ports (TV) doesn't have continuity and still receive TV antenna signal but the F-connector port (Satellite) get continuity but no tv signal?


It doesn't need to have DC continuity because it does not have to pass DC, but it will pass TV signals 47 to 860 MHz.


> Is there special circuit inside this MTN466097 that filter the signal and pass it to the appropriate port, such as satellite signal (certain frequency) goes to the F connector, and terestrial tv signal goes to the bellinglee connector?


Yes, that is correct.


> *Teknisk data*
> 
> *Frekvensområde*
> 
> Satellit: 950-2050 MHZ
> VHF/UHF: 47-860 MHz
> FM: 88-125 MHz
> 
> *Uttagsdämpning (insertion loss)*
> 
> Satellit: 2 dB
> VHF/UHF: 1,5 dB
> FM: 2 dB
> 
> *Kontakter*
> 
> Satellit: F
> VHF/UHF: IEC hane (male)
> FM: IEC hona (female)





> Should I ditch this type of wall port and replace it with a typical port?


It depends upon whether it is your property or it belongs to someone else. You can change it if it is your property. If it is not your property, connect the TV to the lower left port, using an adapter if necessary.


>


----------



## SFischer1

rabbit73 said:


> A TV Fool report for Borneo Island?


I knew there was something I forgot to do. 

SHF


----------



## rabbit73

holl_ands said:


> Lo-VHF Band Folded Dipoles need to be FAT, e.g. 1/2-in Copper Tubing to cover Ch3-6 and Ch2-6 (although SWR is still a bit High)....and AWG24 Twin-Lead only has acceptable SWR across ONE Channel, which rules out one spanning both Ch2 and Ch4....which would likely require at least AWG12/10 (based on Ch6 AWG10 results):


Yes, he needs large diameter conductors to cover CH2 to CH4. I tried to talk him into at least 14 gauge wire, but he wants to try a PET10-8110 FM Dipole that has 30 gauge wire.


cyclist44 said:


> Earlier post mentioned a FM Dipole Indoor Antenna. I found this one on Amazon it is 72 inches wide and 60 inches high. It looks similar to what rabbit73 built. Here is the link:
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EIOQBM
> I have purchased the above antenna from amazon Canada. It has been shipped but I have not received it yet. I will be happy with channel 2 and 4. We have been getting a lot of rain lately and my Bell Satellite dish has been going down a lot lately.


The description on Amazon (and Walmart) is not correct. Amazon says:


> 5-Ft Center Lead With 6-Ft Span


but it is really about 5 ft wide with a 6 ft downlead.




























Half of the dipole is 29"; the dipole is 58" wide

Width in inches = 5540/freq in MHZ
so 
freq in MHz = 5540/Width in inches

5540/58 = 95.5 MHz

The FM band is 88 to 108 MHz, so the PET10-8110 antenna is cut for the center of the FM band.

I measured the DC resistance of the antenna, because it is a continuous loop of wire. It measured 7.8 ohms with my Fluke 115 DMM. The resistance is higher than expected because they used very thin wire.

You still need to try it to see if it will work for you on CH2 and CH4. It might even work on CH9; my 88" 14 gauge folded dipole worked on 7 and 13.


----------



## rabbit73

I made some measurements to compare the gain of my channel 3 folded dipole to the gain of the PET10-8110 FM Dipole on a channel 3 analog signal. 

I don't have any VHF-Low transmitters in my area and I don't have an 8VSB modulator. I used the channel 3 output of a Channel Master 7004 converter box as a test signal and measured the strength of the video carrier with my Sadelco signal level meter.

I set up one of my channel 3 folded dipoles and connected it to the output of the 7004. Then, I setup another one of my channel 3 folded dipoles about 8 feet away and measured the strength of the received signal. It was +14 dBmV (-35 dBm).

Next, I substituted the PET10-8110 FM Dipole as the receiving antenna. The received signal measured +2.5 dBmV (-46.5 dBm).

My channel 3 folded dipole has 

*11.5 dB* 

more gain than the PET10-8110 FM Dipole on channel 3. I don't know how much difference that would make at your location as far as being able to receive 2 and 4.

I inspected the center and end connections of the PET10-8110 FM Dipole.



















I don't have my micrometer with me at my present location, but I do have my digital camera. The 18 gauge wire appears to have a diameter that is 4 times the diameter of the FM dipole wire, making the FM dipole wire 30 gauge.










The solid copper wire for the PET FM Dipole is very thin and fragile. Usually, the twin lead wires of a folded dipole are twisted together and then soldered for greater strength. The wires of the PET FM Dipole were just touched together and then soldered.

Besides making the PET dipole fragile, the thin wires reduce the effective bandwidth, making it more difficult to cover from 2 to 4.

If you have any doubts about the wires in your PET FM dipole, you can check for continuity with an inexpensive ohmmeter like the Elenco M-1000 DMM.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0015126L4?tag=digitalhomconvert-20

or the GB GMT-318 analog meter.
https://www.amazon.com/Gardner-Bend...nction/dp/B00291X79O?tag=digitalhomconvert-20

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Gardner...ickid=XU2xZ8V:szk:UruXgXQ1x1vSUkgwcaQd3WvlxU0

My PET FM Dipole measured about 8 ohms between the two terminals that connect to the balun.


----------



## tylerSC

Just found out if you have a house with argon glass windows, then indoor antenna reception will be blocked. Opened the window and strong reception returned. Something to be aware of.


----------



## holl_ands

You would be much better served using either $10 VHF Rabbit-Ears (fully extended, although that might not be "optimum")....or spend a few minutes stringing a DIY Folded Dipole using AWG10 "House" Electrical Wire around a length of PVC (or whatever), as I referenced earlier.

BTW: It isn't the ARGON that attenuates VHF/UHF Signals....it's the Metallic "LowE" Tinted Coating (like Car Window Tinting) that provides anywhere from 15 to 40 dB of attenuation, depending on construction details.
https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:860029/FULLTEXT01.pdf
https://www.google.com/search?clien...iz.......0i71j0i10j0i13j0i8i13i30.XJO7bmZJKXI
http://www.vitroglazings.com/getmed...owave-Frequency-Attenuation-in-Glass.pdf.aspx [Intentionally Very High Attenuation]


----------



## rabbit73

holl_ands said:


> You would be much better served using either $10 VHF Rabbit-Ears (fully extended, although that might not be "optimum")....or spend a few minutes stringing a DIY Folded Dipole using AWG10 "House" Electrical Wire around a length of PVC (or whatever), as I referenced earlier.


I suggested extended rabbit ears and a DIY folded dipole to cyclist44; he rejected both ideas. Some people think the physical laws don't apply to them and they can take a short cut to their goal. Sometimes they can get away with it, sometimes not; then they have to deal with reality.



> BTW: It isn't the ARGON that attenuates VHF/UHF Signals....it's the Metallic "LowE" Tinted Coating (like Car Window Tinting) that provides anywhere from 15 to 40 dB of attenuation, depending on construction details.


True, the argon primarily improves the R-value for insulation.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

tylerSC said:


> Just found out if you have a house with argon glass windows, then indoor antenna reception will be blocked. Opened the window and strong reception returned. Something to be aware of.


 It's not the argon gas causing the issue, it's the low-E coating on the glass with which argon is often paired for energy efficiency improvements.


Edit: Lol, that's what I get for replying before reading towards the end of the thread!


----------



## rabbit73

It happens to all of us.


----------



## rabbit73

tylerSC said:


> Just found out if you have a house with argon glass windows, then indoor antenna reception will be blocked. Opened the window and strong reception returned. Something to be aware of.


Thank you for the reminder of a problem that will become more common.


My first encounter with low-E glass and TV signals was in this thread
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/1064806-window-blocking-my-antenna.html


----------



## NRadkov

Intheswamp said:


> Well, I was only relaying what others have shared about turning the two panels in different directions...basically mixed reports of "it worked" and "it didn't work". Each location will be different. Your location may work fine. I'm not saying not to do it...I like tinkering. I also like ADTech's recommendation of two of the 2-bays...but I can't find them on the AD website. Your rabbitears report looks good. A 4-bay for the longer distance transmitters and a 2-bay for the nearer transmitters might be an option. Or, just start out with a single 2-bay and see how it performs when aimed in different directions...if it receives the distant stations good then two 2-bays are probably all you need. If it doesn't peform well for the distant stations but does the nearer stations then try a 4-bay for the more distant ones. Just throwing some options out to you. I wouldn't add a VHF dipole until I knew I needed one.
> 
> You'll probably be getting some feedback from some of the experts soon, but I think your in a a definitely doable situation!! And, yeah, when all the transmitters are sitting on a hill in one location overlooking you life can be good.


From experience I know that receiving a signal from two different transmitters is best with two highly focused antennas. I'm currently using an antenna Televes - DAT 790 LR and another one made by me for 482 mhz and amplifier - TGN ULNA 3036. I receiving signals from two distant transmitters of about 75 miles (+local programs), located 60 degrees from my location - Sofia, Bulgaria. Mixing the two antenna I made with this - http: //teroz.cz/produkt/c-211-k-1-x-y-69/
In principle, more antennas can be mixed as long as there is no overlap on the same channels.


best regards - dxing.org


----------



## ADTech

> I made some measurements to compare the gain of my channel 3 folded dipole to the gain of the PET10-8110 FM Dipole on a channel 3 analog signal.



Rabbit73,


There's one issue in your testing (which beyond your control, I'd presume) that will cause rather large measurement errors in a test setup such as you used. When measuring the signals from a source antenna with a receiving antenna in a simplified setup as you used, it's necessary that the receiving antenna be in the far-field region of the transmitting antenna. There are online calculators that can allow you to determine that distance readily, but a good rule of thumb is that a separation distance of 10 times the wavelength is usually a safe assumption. As the wavelength of a 60 MHz signal is 5 meters, that would require a separation of 50 meters to ensure the far-field requirement is met. Obviously, such a dimension isn't going to be available in an apartment.


Just thought I'd drop a note and let you know that your measurements are going to be quite suspect as performed.


Good call on using the RF output of your converter box. I was going to suggest either that or a DVD /VCR player or something else with an RF 3/4 output.


----------



## rabbit73

ADTech said:


> Rabbit73,
> 
> There's one issue in your testing (which beyond your control, I'd presume) that will cause rather large measurement errors in a test setup such as you used. When measuring the signals from a source antenna with a receiving antenna in a simplified setup as you used, it's necessary that the receiving antenna be in the far-field region of the transmitting antenna. There are online calculators that can allow you to determine that distance readily, but a good rule of thumb is that a separation distance of 10 times the wavelength is usually a safe assumption. As the wavelength of a 60 MHz signal is 5 meters, that would require a separation of 50 meters to ensure the far-field requirement is met. Obviously, such a dimension isn't going to be available in an apartment.
> 
> Just thought I'd drop a note and let you know that your measurements are going to be quite suspect as performed.


Thank you for your note of caution. I am aware of the potential problem with near-field measurements, but far-field measurements are not possible for me. If I were making absolute gain measurements, I would be concerned, but since I am only making a gain comparison, my hope was that it would be fairly valid, and certainly better than nothing. Since the two folded dipoles are full wave loops, I considered them two closely coupled coils; the inherent near-field error would be similar for both antennas under test and would self-cancel.

I was also curious to find out what the measurements would show, and hoped that they would support my advice. In particular, I thought my 88" folded dipole with 14 gauge wire would perform much better on channel 3 than an FM dipole made with 30 gauge wire. I also had a feeling that the FM dipole was much shorter than 6 feet as listed in the Amazon description. That is why I bought one, measured it, and tested it.

When I was making gain tests of my 3 element 14 MHz vertical Yagi mounted on my car to work DX, I set up in a large vacant parking lot. My wife was at the other end of the parking lot with a field strength meter. To make a relative gain measurement of my Yagi as compared to a Hustler mobile antenna, I reduced the power to the Yagi until the reading matched the Hustler. The difference in the power readings gave me the gain difference, so that it wasn't necessary to calibrate the field strength meter. Also, I wasn't concerned about ground reflections because the polarization was vertical.

I never considered my channel 3 antenna comparison anything more than a rough approximation, but hopefully better than nothing.

The true test will be when cyclist44 tests something better than a VHF-High dipole for channels 2 and 4, if he ever does it. He has been struggling with the problem for over a year, and I am the first person on the Canadian forum to give him something useful to try. Others there had told him the obvious, like outdoors would be better, the noise level is high, and the antenna will be big.


> Good call on using the RF output of your converter box. I was going to suggest either that or a DVD /VCR player or something else with an RF 3/4 output.


Thank you. I do have another modulator that has VHF-low output, but I would have to reset the DIP switches. It seemed easier to use the CM7004, and I have another use in mind for it, so I needed the practice.

I am willing to risk public ridicule for a chance to learn from an experiment. If I have made a mistake with this experiment, maybe I and others will learn from the mistake.


----------



## rabbit73

NRadkov said:


> From experience I know that receiving a signal from two different transmitters is best with two highly focused antennas. I'm currently using an antenna Televes - DAT 790 LR and another one made by me for 482 mhz and amplifier - TGN ULNA 3036. I receiving signals from two distant transmitters of about 75 miles (+local programs), located 60 degrees from my location - Sofia, Bulgaria. Mixing the two antenna I made with this - http: //teroz.cz/produkt/c-211-k-1-x-y-69/
> In principle, more antennas can be mixed as long as there is no overlap on the same channels.
> 
> best regards - dxing.org


Hello, NRadkov. Thank you for your interesting report. I have made your link active by removing the space:

http://teroz.cz/produkt/c-211-k-1-x-y-69/



















I agree that the two antennas should be very directional. The filter that you are using looks suitable for your location. Here in the US, many users are trying to combine two antenna aimed in different directions with a splitter in reverse to avoid using a custom filter. This sometimes works, but often not because the same signals from each antenna interfere with each other at the combiner.


----------



## JHBrandt

holl_ands said:


> BTW: It isn't the ARGON that attenuates VHF/UHF Signals....it's the Metallic "LowE" Tinted Coating





ProjectSHO89 said:


> It's not the argon gas causing the issue, it's the low-E coating on the glass


Correct. One more footnote to this - argon is about 1% of the air we breathe; if it attenuated RF, radio would be useless for long-distance communication!


----------



## MSev

Calaveras said:


> See attachment. I also added data for the Winegard LNA-100 and the Kitztech KT-501.


Have you done any testing on any other Winegard series such as the AP-3800, 4700, 4800, 8275, 2880 etc?


----------



## Calaveras

MSev said:


> Have you done any testing on any other Winegard series such as the AP-3800, 4700, 4800, 8275, 2880 etc?


Only the 8700.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...l-avs-antenna-related-hardware-topic-524.html

The 8275 has about 36 dB gain which is too much for most locations.


----------



## rabbit73

*Another Way to Combine Antennas*

At some locations, combining two UHF antennas aimed in different directions is desirable. If you have just one TV it can be avoided by using an A/B antenna switch or a separate tuner for the second antenna with its output connected to the aux input of the TV.

However, if you have more than one TV, it becomes necessary to combine both antennas in one coax before splitting.

The easiest way to combine two antennas is with a splitter in reverse, but it doesn't always work. It has the best chance of working if the two directions are about 90 degrees apart and you use antennas with a narrow beamwidth, like a high gain Yagi. Forum member budh9534 has proved that it can work if your location is favorable.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/3003938-stevensville-mi-receiving-south-bend-chicago-help.html










If combining with a splitter in reverse doesn't work for you as well as it worked for budh9534, you can order a custom filter to insert an odd channel or two with the channels from the main antenna.

Another method of combining uses a converter box for the second antenna. Its channel 3 analog output can be combined with the signals from the main antenna using a HLSJ (VHF-High/VHF-Low Separator/Joiner). The analog signal isn't HD, but it is quite adequate for many viewers. My wife can't tell the difference at the normal viewing distance from our 40" Sony.









































To make the information bars at the bottom of the screen image about the same size, the 7004 was set to VIDEO OUTPUT STRETCH and the SONY was set to WIDE MODE > FULL. The sharpness of the image should be judged by the sharpness of the lettering of the information bars. The rest of the screen image isn't as sharp because it was necessary to use a slow shutter speed to capture the screen image. 

There is one important consideration you must deal with when using the HLSJ as a combiner with the converter box. A small amount of the channel 3 signal from the output of the converter box will come out of the HI port of the HLSJ and go into the main antenna, making it a transmitting antenna.











The output of the 7004 is about +11 dBmV (-38 dBm). Most of that signal will come out of the LINE port of the HLSJ for the TVs, but some of that signal will come out of the HI port, at about -26 dBmV (-75 dBm). This makes the isolation from the LO port to the HI port 37 dB.

A signal of -75 dBm on channel 3 is quite weak and will most likely be weaker than the ambient noise level which is -67 dBm at my location. A conservative measure, to avoid causing interference, would be to insert an attenuator of 10 to 20 dB between the output of the 7004 and the LO input of the HLSJ. A 20 dB attenuator will reduce the channel 3 signal to the main antenna to -95 dBm. It will also reduce the channel 3 signal sent to the TVs to -9 dBmV (-58 dBm), which is 6 dB stronger than the -15 dBmV (-64 dBm) where the analog signal starts to show snow. 

If you are using a preamp for the main antenna, it will attenuate the channel 3 signal coming out of the HI port of the HLSJ. My RCA TVPRAMP1R preamp reduces it to -44 dBmV (-93 dBm) with the preamp OFF and to -47 dBmV (-96 dBm) with the preamp ON. An ultra conservative measure of a 10 dB attenuator after the 7004 output and the RCA preamp for the main antenna reduces it to the Thermal Noise Floor of -106 dBm.


----------



## JHBrandt

I once used an HLSJ for a similar purpose: combining the RF output of a satellite receiver with my local OTA signals. A remote control extender to control the satellite receiver from any room in the house completed the solution.

BTW, if you want HD output, there are ATSC RF modulators you can hook to the HDMI output of a converter box. They're pricey though: the cheapest ATSC modulator I know of is $299. Also, their output is typically UHF, so you can't use an HLSJ (but most ATSC tuners still go up to RF 69, so you can set the modulator to RF 60-something and use an LTE filter on the OTA feed to make sure your modulator has no interference from LTE signals on those high RF channels).

If your home is wired for Ethernet and you're starting from scratch, you might consider a more radical solution: connect each antenna to an HDHomeRun network tuner, connect the HDHRs to your network, and use DLNA-compatible TVs to stream from the HDHRs. That gives you two tuners per antenna farm; if you need more you can split the RF signals and add more HDHRs as desired.


----------



## tylerSC

Calaveras said:


> Only the 8700.
> 
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...l-avs-antenna-related-hardware-topic-524.html
> 
> The 8275 has about 36 dB gain which is too much for most locations.


I think those older Winegard preamps are now hard to find. Although I still have a 4700 and 4800 lying around for UHF and an 8200 also for combined.


----------



## MSev

Calaveras said:


> Only the 8700.
> 
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...l-avs-antenna-related-hardware-topic-524.html
> 
> The 8275 has about 36 dB gain which is too much for most locations.


For the 8275 Vhf 29 UHF 28 is what Winegard claimed. I have been told that the 8700's were a low noise preamp and was surprised to see the noise figure your testing revealed. 
Also the LN100 is impressively low on noise. 

I have a stack of various old stock Winegards and now am curious as to whether or not I am wasting my time with them for DXing purposes based on the noise figure of the 8700's.

According to your figures it is looking like I should have gone with Kitztech in the first place.


----------



## Calaveras

MSev said:


> For the 8275 Vhf 29 UHF 28 is what Winegard claimed. I have been told that the 8700's were a low noise preamp and was surprised to see the noise figure your testing revealed.
> Also the LN100 is impressively low on noise.
> 
> I have a stack of various old stock Winegards and now am curious as to whether or not I am wasting my time with them for DXing purposes based on the noise figure of the 8700's.
> 
> According to your figures it is looking like I should have gone with Kitztech in the first place.



I think the preamp manufacturers consider 2.5 dB to 3 dB to be low noise. The KT-200 is the lowest noise but it has no filtering. That's how they get the lower noise.

The AP-8275 had much higher gain than Winegard said and it was easily overloaded if you had just one strong station.


----------



## MSev

Calaveras said:


> I think the preamp manufacturers consider 2.5 dB to 3 dB to be low noise. The KT-200 is the lowest noise but it has no filtering. That's how they get the lower noise.
> 
> The AP-8275 had much higher gain than Winegard said and it was easily overloaded if you had just one strong station.


I have an AP-8275 in the air right now with the FM trap on and a Winegard TFM-7 trap inline. 
If TVfool is to be believed. All my transmitters are edge 2 even though the locals are on 4 and 7 miles away. No overloading as of yet that I have noticed. 
Rabbitears shows my Signal strength on VHF 5 and 11 to be at 100%. While the MER vary from the high 70's to high 90's
My RF ch19 virtual ch27 S.S. is 100 and the MER is high 90's to 100. 

I need to go back and see what the meters on the silicon dust software are showing per channel. 

I would be happy with the Kitztech 500 as I would have to have FM traps in any case. I have LOS to several FM transmitters that are about 1 mile out. 
I have very spotty cell service so I believe I am pretty safe with LTE interference.


----------



## Calaveras

MSev said:


> I have an AP-8275 in the air right now with the FM trap on and a Winegard TFM-7 trap inline.
> If TVfool is to be believed. All my transmitters are edge 2 even though the locals are on 4 and 7 miles away. No overloading as of yet that I have noticed.
> Rabbitears shows my Signal strength on VHF 5 and 11 to be at 100%. While the MER vary from the high 70's to high 90's
> My RF ch19 virtual ch27 S.S. is 100 and the MER is high 90's to 100.
> 
> I need to go back and see what the meters on the silicon dust software are showing per channel.
> 
> I would be happy with the Kitztech 500 as I would have to have FM traps in any case. I have LOS to several FM transmitters that are about 1 mile out.
> I have very spotty cell service so I believe I am pretty safe with LTE interference.



There's no reason to use a very high gain preamp unless you have a lot of loss between the antenna and the TV. Extra gain just subtracts from the dynamic range of the TV. Unless you have about 20 dB of loss you don't need the gain.

The KT-200 is a better preamp than the KT-500. I don't recommend the KT-500.

Overload is very hard to recognize as it generates 3rd order intermods in the band. It can prevent reception of weaker stations. Most people would simply conclude that the station is not receivable.


----------



## MSev

Calaveras said:


> There's no reason to use a very high gain preamp unless you have a lot of loss between the antenna and the TV. Extra gain just subtracts from the dynamic range of the TV. Unless you have about 20 dB of loss you don't need the gain.
> 
> The KT-200 is a better preamp than the KT-500. I don't recommend the KT-500.
> 
> Overload is very hard to recognize as it generates 3rd order intermods in the band. It can prevent reception of weaker stations. Most people would simply conclude that the station is not receivable.


Hmmmm.
The reason I moved to the 8275 is that I was advised that for DXing purposes the extra gain would give me an advantage for distant weak signals. 
It is currently hooked to Winegard 8200U. 

But in reality I could be defeating the my intended purpose?

I am in pretty geographically challenged location. Luckily my transmitters are aligned approx east to west. When atmospheric conditions are correct I receive consistent decodable signal from transmitters 120 miles out in Knoxville. I have gotten as far out as far as 268 miles in Huntsville AL. Some good skip. 

I have about 25 feet of RG6 quad shield between the PSU and the masthead. Then another 25ft behind the PSU and the TV. 
My loss should be minimal.

I dont have a Kitztech on hand at the moment. Would be interested in a used one if anybody has one for sale. 

What I have on hand are the AP-2870, 3700, 3800, 4700, 4800, 8275 and 8700's
I also have the CM-7775 and 7777 dual inputs. 
As well as some Spartan III's. And a Blonder Tongue Galaxy III Plus. Cant remember the exact models off hand. 

The AP-2870 probably has the same noise figure as the 8700 as I assume it is dual port version of the 8700. 
I had thought to use the 2870 on the 8200U. Remove the circuit board and separate the UHF and VHF. The add either 0089 baluns or Tru-spec baluns and see if I would get a similar gain increase as was done on HDPrimer with the Channel master 3671. 
However if the noise figure is that high on the Winegards it would probably defeat any gain that might otherwise be achieved. 

But I digress. 

What is your take on the Old Stock Channel master 7777 Dual input? Still to much? I have not seen any specs on its overload capacity.


----------



## rabbit73

MSev said:


> What is your take on the Old Stock Channel master 7777 Dual input? Still to much? I have not seen any specs on its overload capacity.


That was my favorite preamp. It had a little extra gain, was not easily overloaded like the current 7777, and a reasonably good noise figure.


----------



## tylerSC

rabbit73 said:


> That was my favorite preamp. It had a little extra gain, was not easily overloaded like the current 7777, and a reasonably good noise figure.


The new dual input Channel Master version that replaced the original 7777 has gotten good reviews. It is called Amplify Plus Pro Grade, and is the new 7778-HD model. And it has adjustable gain. But unfortunately it is rather expensive. And it remains confusing that Channel Master keeps using old model numbers for newer versions. They should have chosen new model numbers to avoid confusion.


----------



## Calaveras

MSev said:


> Hmmmm.
> The reason I moved to the 8275 is that I was advised that for DXing purposes the extra gain would give me an advantage for distant weak signals.
> It is currently hooked to Winegard 8200U.
> 
> But in reality I could be defeating the my intended purpose?
> 
> I am in pretty geographically challenged location. Luckily my transmitters are aligned approx east to west. When atmospheric conditions are correct I receive consistent decodable signal from transmitters 120 miles out in Knoxville. I have gotten as far out as far as 268 miles in Huntsville AL. Some good skip.
> 
> I have about 25 feet of RG6 quad shield between the PSU and the masthead. Then another 25ft behind the PSU and the TV.
> My loss should be minimal.



Whoever told you that more preamp gain would receive weaker signals didn't know what they were talking about. I have an article that covers this subject.

http://www.aa6g.org/DTV/Noise/noise.html

System Noise Figure is all that counts and it's essentially impossible to get that below 1 dB.


----------



## MSev

Calaveras said:


> Whoever told you that more preamp gain would receive weaker signals didn't know what they were talking about. I have an article that covers this subject.
> 
> http://www.aa6g.org/DTV/Noise/noise.html
> 
> System Noise Figure is all that counts and it's essentially impossible to get that below 1 dB.


Thank you for the article. 

It helps clarify a few things. 

I'll swap out the 8275 for the 7777 dual input. It might still be to much. But as Rabbit indicated. It has a better margin for preventing overloading. 

Looks like a Kitztech may be in my future.

I would imagine that switching to Rg11 on such a short run would not make much of a difference in the amount of noise in the system?


----------



## holl_ands

Weblinks to System Noise Figure CHART [shown below], DIY System NF and Distortion Calculators and a bunch more useful info incl. Preamp Specs/Measurements and "typical" Cable Loss for RG-11 vs RG-6 can be found here:
https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81...amps-preamps-distro-amps-183.html#post1321089

FYI: In fol. (old) Chart, System NF = Vertical Scale + Antenna to Preamp Loss (typ. Balun Loss),
for presumed 6 db Tuner Noise Figure (if better/worse, reduces/increases "Gross Transmission Loss" by the dB improvement).
Preamp NF = Asymptotic Value on Left Vertical Axis.

And "Gross Transmission Loss" = Cable plus RF Splitter Loss between Preamp and Tuner.


----------



## MSev

holl_ands said:


> Weblinks to System Noise Figure CHART [shown below], DIY System NF and Distortion Calculators and a bunch more useful info incl. Preamp Specs/Measurements and "typical" Cable Loss for RG-11 vs RG-6 can be found here:
> https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81...amps-preamps-distro-amps-183.html#post1321089
> 
> FYI: In fol. (old) Chart, System NF = Vertical Scale + Antenna to Preamp Loss (typ. Balun Loss),
> for presumed 6 db Tuner Noise Figure (if better/worse, reduces/increases "Gross Transmission Loss" by the dB improvement).
> Preamp NF = Asymptotic Value on Left Vertical Axis.
> 
> And "Gross Transmission Loss" = Cable plus RF Splitter Loss between Preamp and Tuner.


Looking at the 4700 and 4800's. I wonder if the 3700 and 3800's would track the same?


----------



## AntAltMike

tylerSC said:


> I think those older Winegard preamps are now hard to find. Although I still have a 4700 and 4800 lying around for UHF and an 8200 also for combined.





Calaveras said:


> There's no reason to use a very high gain preamp unless you have a lot of loss between the antenna and the TV. Extra gain just subtracts from the dynamic range of the TV. Unless you have about 20 dB of loss you don't need the gain.
> 
> The KT-200 is a better preamp than the KT-500. I don't recommend the KT-500.
> 
> Overload is very hard to recognize as it generates 3rd order intermods in the band. It can prevent reception of weaker stations. Most people would simply conclude that the station is not receivable.





MSev said:


> Hmmmm.
> The reason I moved to the 8275 is that I was advised that for DXing purposes the extra gain would give me an advantage for distant weak signals....
> What is your take on the Old Stock Channel master 7777 Dual input? Still to much? I have not seen any specs on its overload capacity.



Been a while since I actively posted in this thread, but I'll dust off some old recollections and invite anyone who thinks I am senile to offer alternative numerical values.


In the early 2000s, I used a slew of Winegard 4700/4800s as well as their mongrel 4747(?) which I never found in their catalogs and which came packed with their 4700/4800 flyer. It had a claimed gain of 23dB, putting it at about the midpoint of their low and high gain models, and one person back then claimed he was actually the customer who had commissioned their manufacture.


I had observed that the gain of the Winegard high gain models went through the roof at low UHF frequencies running about 8dB above spec in the 500 -550 MHz range. I also spent a day running the Winegard's and Channel Masters side by side, using two units of each in the tests, and while Winegard's published specs from that era said that they could be driven to about 10dB more than Channel Master's specs, I was running analog signals through them so I could actually see the degradation in terms of sync suppression, and the pictures would start skating across the screen at lower levels with the Winrgards than with the Channel Masters.


I'll grope for some more old numbers here and say that I think the so-called thermal noise figure for the NTSC analog signals was about -59dBmV and they need to maintain about a 45 or 46dB S/N ratio for "TASO Grade 1" pictures, so theoretically, if one had a 3dB noise figure amplifier, the signals, to be recoverable and sustainable as Grade 1 signals, had to hit the preamp at at least about -13dBmV. Does that recollection match the recollections of the other old timers here?


Did we simply use dBm at the same bandwidth for the digital noise floor. Makes sense to me. -59 minus 49.75(?) would be about -110 dBm, but I though sure we were using a figure higher than that but I might be confusing it with my recollection of satellite signal noise floor, which is measured over 27 MHz of bandwidth rather than 6 MHz. For some reason, the numbers -106dBm and -102dBm are stuck i my head. Maybe the first for broadcast TV noise floor and the second for satellite?


So anyway, what is the lowest recoverable level of preamplifier input that a digital signal can be at to still be recoverable? I remember back in the mid 1990s, going to a seminar at Heifner Communications, at which we padded DirecTV satellite signal down to below -76dBm yet of we amplified it back up to -60dBm, the receiver's test feature still gave is a table full of 
99%" signal quality, whatever that meant.


I have the economical means to filter broadcast channels using old tunable Tru-Spec UHF-BPFs. so I'm sure that I could recover some very weak broadcast signals using them in conjunction with, say, a 36dB preamplifier. I think the insertion loss might have been in the neighborhood of 4dB for those UHF BPFs. Can someone here do the ballpark calculations and estimate how weak a signal one might be able to sustain using the established thermal noise floor, S/N or C/N ratios?


----------



## MSev

Did a quick search on the Tru-Spec UHF-BPFs.
What pops up EscapeVelocity and Rabbit over on DTV mentioning you discussing a similar piece of equipment back in 2009. LOL

I believe I a couple a Channel Masters I picked up along the way.


----------



## AntAltMike

MSev said:


> Did a quick search on the Tru-Spec UHF-BPFs.
> What pops up EscapeVelocity and Rabbit over on DTV mentioning you discussing a similar piece of equipment back in 2009. LOL
> 
> I believe I a couple a Channel Masters I picked up along the way.



A decade and half ago, I Googled "DirecTV" and "spotbeams", and, based on results, I am the putative or nominal or self anointed expert on the subject, and if that is true, then the whole world is in trouble.


----------



## AntAltMike

A decade or so ago, I tried to get Pico/Tru Spec to make up some more, as I think they ceased production in 1992 or 1993, but they said they had not retained the "tooling" needed to stamp out the chassis and case, so I'd have to order a thousand to make it happen.


I figured that if I placed a guaranteed order for 500 they would at least pay attention, so I penciled myself in for a hundred and contacted a few big dealers but no one else would commit for more than a handful.


In the meantime, I had found a Japanese manufacturer of cylindrical traps who would sell me high pass and low pass filters for a few dollars each if I bought 500, and while they are not tunable, I saw that they had enough models "on the shelf", with no minimum buys, so that if I had been more successful at marketing headend systems with individual channel filtering or narrow band filtering ( like 33-36 from Washington, 38-40 or 38-42 from Baltimore/Annapolis) I could develop a superior filtering system for a song, but the sales were just not there for me to further pursue that.


----------



## holl_ands

AntAltMike said:


> Did we simply use dBm at the same bandwidth for the digital noise floor. Makes sense to me. -59 minus 49.75(?) would be about -110 dBm, but I though sure we were using a figure higher than that but I might be confusing it with my recollection of satellite signal noise floor, which is measured over 27 MHz of bandwidth rather than 6 MHz. FOr some reason, the umbers -106dBm and -102dBm are stuck i my head. Maybe one for satellite and one for broadcast?
> 
> So anyway, what is the lowest recoverable level of preamplifier input that a digital signal can be at to still be recoverable? I remember back in the mid 1990s, going to a seminar at Heifner Communications, at which we padded DirecTV satellite signal down to below -76dBm yet of we amplified it back up to -60dBm, the receiver's test feature still gave is a table full of 99%" signal quality, whatever that meant.


 Back in 2008, the NAB (National Assn of Broadcasters) commissioned MSW to test a group of 18 CECB's (Coupon Eligible Converter Boxes...you know those Low-Rez Boxes that were FREE with $40 Coupon) to see how well they met the Gov't Imposed Specs to qualify for the Coupon program. They ALL exceeded the "TOV" (Threshold of Visibility = 10-6 Bit Error Rate after Coding) performance criteria at an SNR of 15.0 (+/- 0.25) dB....corresponding to Sensitivity measurements tightly packed around -86 dBm [so Tuner NF ~ 5.0 dB].

But that was a NON-FADING BENCH TEST and you wouldn't want to watch a very glitchy picture right at "TOV"....so you would want a 2+ dB increase in SNR for a LOS Link....and for Real-World Fading Conditions (i.e. beyond LOS), you might need another 10-20 dB increase in the SNR.


BTW: NTSC Signals were always measured using a PEAK Reading Meter, whereas ATSC Signals are always measured using an AVERAGE Reading Meter, where the Peak is about 6-7+ dB higher [give or take some Statistical Assumptions].


----------



## AntAltMike

With the NTSC, I think our S/N ratio was the number derived by comparing the NTSC carrier peak with the 6 MHz wideband noise floor, and I thought that the 8VSB S/N or C/N ratio was using 5.8 MHz or 5.6-something MHz bandwidth (I think one of those bandwidths was QAM versus the other NTSC) for both the signal and the noise.


----------



## MSev

AntAltMike said:


> A decade and half ago, I Googled "DirecTV" and "spotbeams", and, based on results, I am the putative or nominal or self anointed expert on the subject, and if that is true, then the whole world is in trouble.


:laugh::laugh:


----------



## rabbit73

AntAltMike said:


> Been a while since I actively posted in this thread, but I'll dust off some old recollections and invite anyone who thinks I am senile to offer alternative numerical values.


I love to hear your old stories, and learn from them. The first meter I used was calibrated in microvolts, and then I graduated to dBmV units for my Sadelco meters. I think in dBmV with 0 dBmV as the magic reference level, but had to learn to think in dBm, because that is what the TVFool reports use. The conversion factor is 48.75, rounded to 49. or 50 for a quick estimate.










I think the Channel Master engineers gave much more accurate specs for their preamps than Winegard did, and the CM shielding was better.



> Did we simply use dBm at the same bandwidth for the digital noise floor.


Yes, the Thermal Noise Floor for a 6 MHz bandwidth signal is -106 dBm, digital and analog. Of course, if your ambient noise is higher than that (like on VHF-Low), you will need more signal to have the minimum required C/N for analog and SNR for digital. 












> Can someone here do the ballpark calculations and estimate how weak a signal one might be able to sustain using the established thermal noise floor, S/N or C/N ratios?
> For some reason, the umbers -106dBm and -102dBm are stuck i my head.


If you put a dipole in a shielded enclosure and connect to it with an F-81 through the wall of the enclosure, the noise level will be -106 dBm at the antenna terminals. If you take the dipole out of the enclosure, the minimum required digital signal will be -85 dBm in a location with low ambient noise. This is the calculation:

-106 dBm + 15 dB for minimum required SNR = -91 dBm
-91 dBm + 6 dB for tuner NF = -85 dBm

This is one way to look at it:










but this is probably more accurate, because the tuner noise is just above the thermal noise floor, and the minimum required SNR is above that:










If you add a reflector and directors, the noise will still be -106 dBm at the antenna terminals, but you have collected more signal to exceed that noise.

However, a TVFool report equates a 0 dB Noise Margin with -91dBm, because it assumes a preamp with a 0 dB NF is used; the difference between the listed NMs and the listed signal powers in dBm is a constant of 91.










When you use a preamp, the tuner NF becomes irrelevant, because it is buried in the amplified noise floor. Then, the preamp NF primarily determines the System Noise Figure as shown by the Friis formula. 
.
FOR OLD TIMERS:


----------



## AntAltMike

Here is something I encountered last week. Pressure taps rated to 216 MHz, but being used to carry cable TV channels up to 54 (408 MHz).


A pressure tap connects with the center conductor by driving an insulated prick pin into it. When I cut them out, I have to either have old RG-11 connectors with crimp-on center pins, or in desperation, I can wick solder into the center conductor and file it down gently and then fit it into a female F port on an F-81 barrel connector.


----------



## rabbit73

*How Low can You Go?*



AntAltMike said:


> So anyway, what is the lowest recoverable level of preamplifier input that a digital signal can be at to still be recoverable?
> Can someone here do the ballpark calculations and estimate how weak a signal one might be able to sustain using the established thermal noise floor, S/N or C/N ratios?


To expand a little further on the answer to how low can you go, the practical limit would be a signal with an actual Noise Margin of -15 dB (-106 dBm, -57 dBmV, 1.4 µV across 75 ohms) as defined by TVFool. 

The signal coming out of the terminals of an antenna with a gain of 18 dBd, as shown in the diagram below, would be -88 dBm (-39 dBmV, 11 µV across 75 ohms).

And finally, as you requested, the signal to the preamp input would be -89 dBm (-40 dBmV, 10 µV across 75 ohms).

The Noise Margins listed for weak 2Edge signals are known to be less accurate than for LOS signals, because of software limitations. Also, OTA signals constantly vary in strength and Tropospheric Propagation can temporarily enhance a weak signal. For consistent reliable reception you would want a Fade Margin greater than the one dB indicated in the diagram.










The above diagram assumes that the ambient noise level is at or below -106 dBm. To receive weaker signals, you would need an antenna with more than 18 dBd gain, which is possible, but not easily done.


----------



## MSev

rabbit73 said:


> To expand a little further on the answer to how low can you go, the practical limit would be a signal with an actual Noise Margin of -15 dB (-106 dBm, -57 dBmV, 1.4 µV across 75 ohms) as defined by TVFool.
> 
> The signal coming out of the terminals of an antenna with a gain of 18 dBd, as shown in the diagram below, would be -88 dBm (-39 dBmV, 11 µV across 75 ohms).
> 
> And finally, as you requested, the signal to the preamp input would be -89 dBm (-40 dBmV, 10 µV across 75 ohms).
> 
> The Noise Margins listed for weak 2Edge signals are known to be less accurate than for LOS signals, because of software limitations. Also, OTA signals constantly vary in strength and Tropospheric Propagation can temporarily enhance a weak signal. For consistent reliable reception you would want a Fade Margin greater than the one dB indicated in the diagram.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The above diagram assumes that the ambient noise level is at or below -106 dBm. To receive weaker signals, you would need an antenna with more than 18 dBd gain, which is possible, but not easily done.


Speaking of low loss baluns. 

I read in a post some where that the early baluns were tuned more towards VHF and had less loss in those frequencies than baluns produced later on. 

Has anybody put that to the test?


----------



## rabbit73

MSev said:


> Speaking of low loss baluns.
> 
> I read in a post some where that the early baluns were tuned more towards VHF and had less loss in those frequencies than baluns produced later on.
> 
> Has anybody put that to the test?


What you say is true. When I was comparing the gain of a CH3 folded dipole to an FM dipole on channel 3, I noticed that the readings were different when I changed the balun on the FM folded dipole. But, because the ambient noise level was so high on VHF-Low, it didn't make a difference in the SNR. The change in the reading of the gain was equal to the change in the reading of the noise level. 

I noticed the same problem on VHF-High with an indoor antenna. I substituted a 30-2475 for a folded dipole. My marginal channel 9 was much stronger, but so was the noise; channel 9 stayed at the Digital Cliff with an SNR of 13 to 14.










Often, the answer on VHF is to reduce the noise, not look for more antenna gain.

"Don't raise the bridge, lower the river."

I measured the loss of 3 different baluns on channel 3 by connecting two in series and dividing by two as I had previously done on UHF.



















This inexpensive Jensen MR-550 AM/FM portable radio has been useful in finding noise sources. Tune to a vacant frequency at the low end of the AM broadcast band and then at the high end. The built-in AM loop antenna is directional, which helps in finding the source of noise. Noise on the AM broadcast band often indicates that there is also noise on VHF TV. The AM mode works better than FM when locating noise sources. A portable radio that includes the Aircraft band will also work; that's AM too.


----------



## MSev

rabbit73 said:


> What you say is true. When I was comparing the gain of a CH3 folded dipole to an FM dipole on channel 3, I noticed that the readings were different when I changed the balun on the FM folded dipole. But, because the ambient noise level was so high on VHF-Low, it didn't make a difference in the SNR. The change in the reading of the gain was equal to the change in the reading of the noise level.
> 
> I noticed the same problem on VHF-High with an indoor antenna. I substituted a 30-2475 for a folded dipole. My marginal channel 9 was much stronger, but so was the noise; channel 9 stayed at the Digital Cliff with an SNR of 13 to 14.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Often, the answer on VHF is to reduce the noise, not look for more antenna gain.
> 
> "Don't raise the bridge, lower the river."
> 
> I measured the loss of 3 different baluns on channel 3 by connecting two in series and dividing by two as I had previously done on UHF.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This inexpensive Jensen MR-550 AM/FM portable radio has been useful in finding noise sources. Tune to a vacant frequency at the low end of the AM broadcast band and then at the high end. The built-in AM loop antenna is directional, which helps in finding the source of noise. Noise on the AM broadcast band often indicates that there is also noise on VHF TV. The AM mode works better than FM when locating noise sources. A portable radio that includes the Aircraft band will also work; that's AM too.


Good to know.

Ever play with any Jerrold and later Dehi baluns?


----------



## rabbit73

MSev said:


> Good to know.
> 
> Ever play with any Jerrold and later Dehi baluns?


No


----------



## Calaveras

MSev said:


> Good to know.



Using an AM radio to look for noise sources on high VHF is not a reliable method. Lots of electronic devices generate noise at 1 MHz but not at 174 MHz and up. A radio that covers the aircraft band is a much better method. 

I've driven around a lot listening on the AM radio and the aircraft band. It's very common to hear terrible noise on AM radio and silence on the aircraft band. Sometimes it works the opposite way. 

If you use the AM radio band to look for noise on high VHF you're going to get a lot of false positives.


----------



## rabbit73

Calaveras said:


> Using an AM radio to look for noise sources on high VHF is not a reliable method. Lots of electronic devices generate noise at 1 MHz but not at 174 MHz and up. A radio that covers the aircraft band is a much better method.
> 
> I've driven around a lot listening on the AM radio and the aircraft band. It's very common to hear terrible noise on AM radio and silence on the aircraft band. Sometimes it works the opposite way.
> 
> If you use the AM radio band to look for noise on high VHF you're going to get a lot of false positives.


What inexpensive method, other than a low SNR that some users can't measure, do you suggest to measure noise interference on VHF?


----------



## MSev

Rabbit. 
What is your opinion of that stellar labs antenna?


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> What inexpensive method, other than a low SNR that some users can't measure, do you suggest to measure noise interference on VHF?



I never said that there was an inexpensive method but an AM broadcast band radio is not a substitute for listening near the frequency you're having trouble with. Properly diagnosing these problems is often not easy or cheap. That's just the reality of the situation.


----------



## rabbit73

Calaveras said:


> I never said that there was an inexpensive method but an AM broadcast band radio is not a substitute for listening near the frequency you're having trouble with. Properly diagnosing these problems is often not easy or cheap. That's just the reality of the situation.


Read my post again. I did suggest the Aircraft band, which is a nearby frequency. 

Are you saying that if you can't do testing the "perfect" way, you shouldn't even try anything else?

You seem to have a lot of reasons why something shouldn't be done, but few ways it can be done. I thought it was the ham spirit of innovation to find a way, even if you don't have the ideal equipment for the job.

Chuck's Rules of Forbidden Actions discourage experimentation. Sometimes people have to find out for themselves that it doesn't work. In the case of budh9534, you discouraged him from trying what he wanted to try, which was combining two UHF antennas in different directions with a splitter in reverse:


Calaveras said:


> As far as I'm concerned #2 is a no go for the reasons I've already stated. "Significantly different directions" doesn't make two antennas combined onto one feedline work as you can see in my spectrum analyzer display.


He got it to work because his location was ideal for that method of combining which has a poor record of success. 

Why did you think it was OK to discourage him by calling it a "no go" and deprive him of a learning experience?

Wouldn't it have been more constructive to tell him that it doesn't usually work, but that he should try it.?

The only benefit your negative advice gave him was that it made him even more determined to make it work. 
____________________________________________

A used Sadelco 733C Super signal level meter covers VHF TV and cable frequencies, but no UHF. It costs less than $100. It can measure the strength of VHF signals and the noise level. 

Would that be good enough? It, and my used 719E which covers UHF and VHF and cost $75 including shipping, work just fine for me to diagnose a problem.

The MFJ 852 and 856 power line noise meters (135 MHz AM) cost more and have poor quality control; it's a gamble on getting a good one.


----------



## rabbit73

MSev said:


> Rabbit.
> What is your opinion of that stellar labs antenna?


Good price for a well made antenna that performs well. It didn't help with my marginal VHF channel, but that wasn't the fault of the antenna, it was the fault of the antenna location.

I think the two sections of the boom could fasten together a little more securely. The female coax connector on the balun doesn't grab the male pin of the coax connector tightly, but it hasn't caused a problem.

niv, on the TVFool forum, seems to be very happy with his 30-2475 for VHF. JoeAZ and I had to post for him from PMs because he was never authorized to post.
http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php?p=60340&postcount=33










crank it up


----------



## eherberg

On a quick side note re: The pictures of that antenna setup: Holy Crap! That is an unbelievably ambitious setup. I wonder what the cost and construction problems and/or permits were needed for that setup.  I feel for him on the whole TV Fool forum problem. I registered at least 8 months ago and never received my authorization for forum posting either.

Back on topic: I have the Stellar Labs 30-2475. In my very remote area, I only have realistic access to 3 channels -- ABC from about 68 miles away (2-edge), Fox about 12 miles away (LOS), and CTV about 50 miles (2-edge). (I suppose if I had an antenna setup like niv, broadcasts from the Moon might be in play).  The 30-2475 does a great job on all. Of course, I can't get both CTV and ABC at the same time due to their being in complete opposite directions, but pointed at one or the other pulls them in just fine. Next spring, I may explore some kind of combining -- although I've read wildly varying accounts of whether that will be successful. But as for High-VHF, the 30-2475 performs really well. I actually ordered both the Clearstream 5 and the Stellar Labs antenna to test against each other (and perhaps combine the two). When testing each one for signal, the Stellar Labs performed on a higher level than the Clearstream 5 for me. Given the significant difference in cost between them, I will probably be looking at introducing a 2nd 30-2475 model in the spring.

One final note about the 30-2475: The assembly instructions for the antenna are bad. I mean *really* bad. If you know what you're doing in antenna assembly (or are generally pretty handy), I suppose you wouldn't have a problem. Since I had never assembled one before (and being 'handy' isn't really a skill-set of mine) - I had a couple of mis-steps along the way. Assembly really turned into looking at a picture of an assembled antenna and trying to make my pile of parts look like that. My last mistake during the assembly was finally having it put together ... looking like the picture online ... and then realizing I hadn't put the mast clamp on. Even correcting that, I realized while attaching it to a hillbilly setup of a pvc pipe in a 3-legged tripod that I had the adjustable clamp placed on the antenna in an upside-down position, so I could tilt it downwards, but not upwards.  Next spring when the whole setup is looked at again with the 2nd antenna added, I'll need to correct that also.


----------



## rabbit73

Thank you for your interesting story. The assembly instructions are really bad, and the instructions for the bigger 30-2476 show two different locations for the mast clamp.





















eherberg said:


> In my very remote area, I only have realistic access to 3 channels -- ABC from about 68 miles away (2-edge), Fox about 12 miles away (LOS), and CTV about 50 miles (2-edge). The 30-2475 does a great job on all. Of course, I can't get both CTV and ABC at the same time due to their being in complete opposite directions, but pointed at one or the other pulls them in just fine. Next spring, I may explore some kind of combining -- although I've read wildly varying accounts of whether that will be successful.


Combining 12, 7, and 8 that are in three different directions is possible, but it will not be easy.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=9038965e7b31f8


----------



## mattdp

rabbit73 said:


> What inexpensive method, other than a low SNR that some users can't measure, do you suggest to measure noise interference on VHF?


Software Defined radio USB dongles like the RTL-SDR can be had for under $20 and there are free pieces of SDR software such as SDR#.


----------



## rabbit73

mattdp said:


> Software Defined radio USB dongles like the RTL-SDR can be had for under $20 and there are free pieces of SDR software such as SDR#.


Good idea for those that are comfortable dealing with software.


----------



## mattdp

SDR software isn't all that complicated.

Besides looking at noise and TV signals, they can be used for looking at/listening to/recording LW, AM, Shortwave, CB, Air, Weather, FM, Ham, trunked radio, certain satellites, etc.


----------



## keeper

rabbit73 said:


> Good price for a well made antenna that performs well. It didn't help with my marginal VHF channel, but that wasn't the fault of the antenna, it was the fault of the antenna location.
> 
> I think the two sections of the boom could fasten together a little more securely. The female coax connector on the balun doesn't grab the male pin of the coax connector tightly, but it hasn't caused a problem.
> 
> niv, on the TVFool forum, seems to be very happy with his 30-2475 for VHF. JoeAZ and I had to post for him from PMs because he was never authorized to post.
> http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php?p=60340&postcount=33
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crank it up


Wow, he even has an Advantage 2 weather station on that tower.


----------



## Intheswamp

keeper said:


> Wow, he even has an Advantage 2 weather station on that tower.


Davis Vantage Pro 2...not sure if it has the solar and/or UV sensors. Good consumer weather station workhorses. One of the best updates they've done to this model are the integrated bird spikes, they *really* help!


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> Read my post again. I did suggest the Aircraft band, which is a nearby frequency.
> 
> Are you saying that if you can't do testing the "perfect" way, you shouldn't even try anything else?
> 
> You seem to have a lot of reasons why something shouldn't be done, but few ways it can be done. I thought it was the ham spirit of innovation to find a way, even if you don't have the ideal equipment for the job.
> 
> Chuck's Rules of Forbidden Actions discourage experimentation. Sometimes people have to find out for themselves that it doesn't work. In the case of budh9534, you discouraged him from trying what he wanted to try, which was combining two UHF antennas in different directions with a splitter in reverse:
> 
> He got it to work because his location was ideal for that method of combining which has a poor record of success.
> 
> Why did you think it was OK to discourage him by calling it a "no go" and deprive him of a learning experience?
> 
> Wouldn't it have been more constructive to tell him that it doesn't usually work, but that he should try it.?
> 
> The only benefit your negative advice gave him was that it made him even more determined to make it work.



Hey man, what is your problem? I give the best advice that I know how to give. If you don't like it then don't say anything. You post stuff all the time that I think is unhelpful but I rarely say anything about it because we're allowed to post whatever advice we feel is good. 

I didn't deprive anyone of anything. They can do whatever they want. My goal is to always suggest what is most likely to work. Many times I've told people they can try the two antennas in different directions with a simple combiner but I always tell them it often doesn't work. I've even posted exactly why it usually doesn't work. You even liked my post! What changed?

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/3000472-le-sueur-mn-valley.html#post56833878

When I give someone advice it's very likely to work. But often the best solution is not the easy solution. People are lazy and want a magic solution. This is not my problem and I don't want to waste my time on people who are not really interested in solving their reception issues. 

I still think there needs to be a scale in one of the stickies to gauge how interested someone is in solving the problem.


----------



## rabbit73

Calaveras said:


> Hey man, what is your problem?


You criticized my post #17462 that was addressed to MSev.

I posted my rebuttal to defend my advice.

Did you think I wouldn't say anything?

If you don't want to see my rebuttal, don't criticize my post.


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> You criticized my post #17462 that was addressed to MSev.
> 
> I posted my rebuttal to defend my advice.
> 
> Did you think I wouldn't say anything?
> 
> If you don't want to see my rebuttal, don't criticize my post.



It came across as a general rant about the way I construct my posts.

Looks like there have been some deletions and post renumbering so I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to. If you're referring to my post currently numbered 17465, the post is 100% accurate. An AM broadcast band radio is a highly unreliable way to find noise at high VHF. No one should be recommending this even if you can find the oddball case where it did work. The advice in your signature is spot on. "If you can't measure it, you can't improve it." What's measured at 1 MHz is not what's present at 174 MHz and up.


----------



## rabbit73

I do not agree with you.

My wife and I have been married for over 50 years. To make it work, we learned that it is OK to disagree.

You and I are not married, but we live on the same forum.

If you can't learn how to agree to disagree, there will continue to be problems between us.


If you insist on proof of my concept, I can give you a link that shows a car radio that was tuned to the AM broadcast band located a battery charger that was causing interference to VHF-Hi.


If your mind is closed to new ideas that don't agree with your old ideas, how can you learn anything new?


----------



## jkeldo

rabbit73 said:


> I do not agree with you.
> 
> My wife and I have been married for over 50 years. To make it work, we learned that it is OK to disagree.
> 
> You and I are not married, but we live on the same forum.
> 
> If you can't learn how to agree to disagree, there will continue to be problems between us.
> 
> 
> If you insist on proof of my concept, I can give you a link that shows a car radio that was tuned to the AM broadcast band located a battery charger that was causing interference to VHF-Hi.
> 
> 
> If your mind is closed to new ideas that don't agree with your old ideas, how can you learn anything new?


I came across this some time back and it is similar to your advice so it can work in some situations:

http://dennysantennaservice.com/vhf-tv-reception-interference.html

As you say, you do have to try various things to solve problems.


----------



## rabbit73

jkeldo said:


> I came across this some time back and it is similar to your advice so it can work in some situations:
> 
> http://dennysantennaservice.com/vhf-tv-reception-interference.html
> 
> As you say, you do have to try various things to solve problems.


Thank you for the link to an excellent example of an AM radio finding VHF-High interference from a heated pet blanket. That's even better than my example of an AM car radio finding power line noise that led to a battery charger and a laptop power adapter that were causing VHF-High interference.

http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php?p=52500&postcount=5

Mike's review of battery charger

https://www.harborfreight.com/15-amp-three-stage-onboard-battery-charger-maintainer-99857.html

Mike

August 10, 2015 one star, last page of reviews

*BAD RFI from this charger, ruins radio and VHF tv reception*



> This charger does charge batteries well. However, it really pumps out radio interference! I can pick it up well over 200-300 feet away from where I had one plugged in in my garage.It caused AM radio interference, and ruined my OTA VHF channel reception for my tv set.Be aware of this, if you are trying to become a cord-cutter, and are hooking up a tv antenna for OTA tv channels. If some of your channels are still VHF, you may have problems caused by this charger.


That's two documented cases, so far.

I owe you a debt of gratitude, jkeldo.


----------



## rabbit73

From the FCC:
https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/interference-radio-tv-and-telephone-signals

Interference with Radio, TV and Telephone Signals

*Electrical interference and your TV*
Electrical interference appears on the audio and video portion of television programming. Short bursts of interference may be caused by hair dryers, sewing machines, electric drills, doorbell transformers and garage door openers. If the pattern is on continuously, it may be caused by equipment that is in use full time, such as aquarium heaters and fluorescent lighting.

Electrical interference may be caused by power lines or electrical equipment in your home. Interference caused by your power company’s electrical equipment is normally continuous and your power company should be notified.

A simple method of determining the location of electrical interference is by using a portable AM radio tuned to a quiet frequency at the lower end of the dial. You should hear static or a buzzing sound as you get close to the source of the interference. The closer you get, the more intense the static will be.


----------



## jkeldo

rabbit73 said:


> Thank you for the link to an excellent example of an AM radio finding VHF-High interference from a heated pet blanket. That's even better than my example of an AM car radio finding power line noise that led to a battery charger and a laptop power adapter that were causing VHF-High interference.
> 
> http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php?p=52500&postcount=5
> 
> Mike's review of battery charger
> 
> https://www.harborfreight.com/15-amp-three-stage-onboard-battery-charger-maintainer-99857.html
> 
> Mike
> 
> August 10, 2015 one star, last page of reviews
> 
> *BAD RFI from this charger, ruins radio and VHF tv reception*
> 
> 
> 
> That's two documented cases, so far.
> 
> I owe you a debt of gratitude, jkeldo.


Thank you as well. Your posts are very informative and help many here looking to improve reception and for antenna choices.


----------



## rabbit73

*New Channel Master Balun*

Channel Master has come out with a new balun:
https://www.channelmaster.com/TV_Antenna_Balun_Matching_Transformer_Deluxe_p/cm-3203.htm












> Replaceable Leads with Weather Seal


They don't show the Replaceable Leads or how much they cost; they have a special connector.

At $29.00 for ONE balun, I think I will let somebody else do the testing.


----------



## AntAltMike

rabbit73 said:


> Channel Master has come out with a new balun:
> https://www.channelmaster.com/TV_Antenna_Balun_Matching_Transformer_Deluxe_p/cm-3203.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They don't show the Replaceable Leads or how much they cost.; they have a special connector.
> 
> At $29.00 for ONE balun, I think I will let somebody else do the testing.



Financing available.


Any word on when Monster is coming out with any new jumper cables?


----------



## mattdp

Maybe this $30 balun will sell with some sucker consumers, but there's no way I'd consider it. Maybe at $10. No other decent balun costs more than $5!!! Of course all the new stuff I install have built-in baluns, so it's not like I go through a lot.

What sells to my customers is that their antenna setup receive channels all reliably - they couldn't care less about brand names. What sells to me is reliability and price/performance. I'm not going to double or even triple the cost of hardware for a system so I can say it's name brand. Nobody cares.

Sure, 30+ years ago the CM name might've carried some weight with installers and consumers. It was a reputation well earned. They advertised, they had a dealer network, a FULL line of top quality products and a huge install base (Quantum combos especially). But going the Monster Cable route...


----------



## MeatChicken

It looks like the leads section of that balun "unscrews" .. perhaps with some sort of internal quick-release connector for quick replacement (_ .. 50 years later when needed_  ) ....


----------



## Primestar31

rabbit73 said:


> Channel Master has come out with a new balun:
> https://www.channelmaster.com/TV_Antenna_Balun_Matching_Transformer_Deluxe_p/cm-3203.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They don't show the Replaceable Leads or how much they cost; they have a special connector.
> 
> At $29.00 for ONE balun, I think I will let somebody else do the testing.



$29.00 for a balun, they are OUT OF THEIR MINDS! Though this is probably marketed at people that pay $110 for a "_*150 mile*_ antenna" that's worth about $5.00.


----------



## rabbit73

MeatChicken said:


> It looks like the leads section of that balun "unscrews" .. perhaps with some sort of internal quick-release connector for quick replacement (_ .. 50 years later when needed_  ) ....


Yes, that is exactly what it is. It's also yet another connection that might give you trouble; not as reliable as a soldered connection. I'm thinking of the fork connections in the CB-8269 balun housing for the Winegard antennas. But, a replacement connector with wires is probably less expensive than a new balun.


----------



## willscary

Hello!

OK, so I can't believe you guys are all still here, but I am happy that you are! I have an issue and I am hoping you can help.

If any of you remember me, I set up my antennas nearly a decade ago and have had no issues. I run a pair of Funke VHF antennas to pick up channel 11 out of Green Bay, WI and also channels 7 and 9 out of Wausau, WI. I use a channel 11 Jointenna to combine them.

I also have a XG91 for the Green Bay UHF stations combined with a small 16-19 specialty antenna and a full range Winegard. The Winegard is attic mounted and utilizes a channel 31 Jointenna that was used for the old Fox station in Wittenberg, WI and the specialty antenna is mast mounted and was used with a channel 16 jointenna to pick up NBC in Rhinelander, WI.


Everything worked flawlessly as the pair of VHF antennas were combined and inputted to the VHF side of the old CM7777. The XG91 and the specialty antenna are combined with the channel 16 jointenna and inputted to the UHF side of the 7777. Once in the house the coax is joined with the channel 31 Jointenna to the attic mounted and preamplified antenna. Everything is distributed via an equal leg 3 way splitter. I have Tivo OTAs for each TV that gives me a full EPG, dvr controls and streaming apps to each location.


Now comes the newest repack. Channel 11 is moving to channel 12. Part of me thinks that I should look into having my Jointenna retuned. Is this easy? Can one of you accomplish this? Do I need to do it? Part two...My channel 31 Jointenna has been doing a great job with channel 33 since channel 31 went dark. Perhaps it was mistuned to start with, or perhaps the filter is just that wide. I don't know. Perhaps they could both be fine tuned?


I no longer use the channel 16 Jointenna or antenna, but it is still in the signal stream. With the repack, Channel 46 (ION) out of Wittenberg/ Wausau has moved to channel 19 and I periodically receive it. I am considering using the specialty antenna and a Jointenna to get this channel better. I could either get the channel 16 Jointenna retuned or I could purchase one of the remaining channel 19 jointennas from Warren.


Are any of you capable of retuning these, or is there a plcae I could send them to have them retuned?


Thanks!


Bill


By the way, it is good to see that you all are well.


----------



## AntAltMike

willscary said:


> I run a pair of Funke VHF antennas to pick up channel 11 out of Green Bay, WI and also channels 7 and 9 out of Wausau, WI. I use a channel 11 Jointenna to combine them.
> 
> Now comes the newest repack. Channel 11 is moving to channel 12. Part of me thinks that I should look into having my Jointenna retuned. Is this easy? Can one of you accomplish this? Do I need to do it? Part two...My channel 31 Jointenna has been doing a great job with channel 33 since channel 31 went dark. Perhaps it was mistuned to start with, or perhaps the filter is just that wide. I don't know. Perhaps they could both be fine tuned?
> 
> I no longer use the channel 16 Jointenna or antenna, but it is still in the signal stream. With the repack, Channel 46 (ION) out of Wittenberg/ Wausau has moved to channel 19 and I periodically receive it. I am considering using the specialty antenna and a Jointenna to get this channel better. I could either get the channel 16 Jointenna retuned or I could purchase one of the remaining channel 19 jointennas from Warren.
> 
> Are any of you capable of retuning these, or is there a plcae I could send them to have them retuned?
> .


Your channel 16 Jointenna could be retuned, but Warren is selling them for $34 and so I doubt that anyone would retune it for much less than that. One reason that there is no retuning "industry", and in fact, one reason that no major American manufacturer or distributor even offers tunable stuff, is that the cost of dealing with the customer dissatisfaction factor when their system doesn't work as well as they'd like it to wipes out any profits they could make. I remember when Winegard jacked the price of their UT-2700 tunable notches up from about $20-something to about $70 before discontinuing them. They probably only cost a couple of dollar to make, and I think they were just dumping their inventory at a price that made it worth the customer complaints that those sales would generate.

A UHF jointenna typically passes the channel below and channel above at the low end of the UHF band, and is wider than that at the upper end, so I doubt that your channel 31 jointenna is mistuned, and it would be a waste of money paying someone to "retweak" it for you..

As for adjusting the channel 11 jointenna, most VHF jointennas I have seen did not have tuning adjustments, but I have seen a couple of older ones that had a couple of trimmers in them, but I didn't experiment with them to see what they did. It is possible that they were tunable narrow notches that could be peaked to mitigate the aural carrier of the lower adjacent channel and the visual carrier of the upper adjacent channel. The boxes and packages that my jointennas came in didn't have manufacturer dates stamped on them. I'd bet that any you buy from Warren or elsewhere are "New, old stick" and are 20 to 50 years old.


----------



## willscary

Thanks Mike! My single channel antenna is actually a Blonder Tongue model for channels 14-19, if I recall...a BT-10 model. I thought I could repurpose it from channel 16 to channel 19. Yes, I have thought about buying the channel 19 JT and I guess it is the way to go. The channel 31 JT is working for channel 33, so I guess if it ain't broke...

So the channel 11 JT won't work for channel 12 and I am SOL? I wonder what the interference will be like if I join the antennas using just a normal combiner. One points to 90 degrees magnetic and the other points to 327 degrees magnetic. The 90 degree station is 37 miles away over a tall-tree hill that is a few hundred yards away and the other points to stations that are about 70 miles away but at antenna height I can see over 10 miles in that direction.


----------



## AntAltMike

willscary said:


> So the channel 11 JT won't work for channel 12 and I am SOL? .



I'd expect the channel 11 jointennas to work OK on channel 12 with digital signals. With analog signals, its lack of "flatness across the channel" if used for channel 12 might degrade the video a little, but broadcast digital ATSC can "take a lickin' and keep on tickin' ", so it will probably work OK for you.


----------



## willscary

Thanks again Mike!


----------



## wildwillie6

*Power Pass and DC Block question*

Two simple questions: I'm getting ready to install a splitter like this (https://www.bestbuy.com/site/rocketfish-2-way-coaxial-splitter-gold/6651202.p?skuId=6651202) -- power passing on both ports -- to split a signal from an antenna to two TVs. Because of physical location problems, I need to have the antenna preamp's power supply close to TV number one. I will insert a DC Block between the splitter and TV number two. So:

1. Do I have this right?

and 

2. If I do, is it also true that a bunch of unsuspecting customers install that splitter from Best Buy in similar situations, don't put on the DC Block, and fry their equipment?

(Crude diagram below)

Antenna
|
|
Preamp
|
|
+--Splitter-->--DC Block-->--TV2
|
|
Preamp Power Supply
|
|
TV1


----------



## ADTech

There is no need to use a DC block on that splitter, the power passing function is diode-steered so it automatically blocks power from getting to the "wrong" port.


The probability that any Best Buy customer "fried" anything due to this splitter is pretty low unless they happened to get one that was defective (or used it incorrectly).


One thing to note is that if you're using a USB-powered amp, you're going to knock about .6 to .7 of a volt off your supply voltage to the amp. Depending on the amps' power requirements, this may cause issues.


----------



## wildwillie6

ADTech said:


> There is no need to use a DC block on that splitter, the power passing function is diode-steered so it automatically blocks power from getting to the "wrong" port.
> 
> 
> The probability that any Best Buy customer "fried" anything due to this splitter is pretty low unless they happened to get one that was defective (or used it incorrectly).
> 
> 
> One thing to note is that if you're using a USB-powered amp, you're going to knock about .6 to .7 of a volt off your supply voltage to the amp. Depending on the amps' power requirements, this may cause issues.


_There is no need to use a DC block on that splitter, the power passing function is diode-steered so it automatically blocks power from getting to the "wrong" port._

Ah, good to know. I did the setup today and it worked quite well. I think it was mainly because with the new splitter in position I was able to substitute a short RG6 run for what had been a longer RG59 run.

Everything worked so well that I'm reluctant to change anything . . . I assume that the DC Block won't weaken the signal on that leg?

And, for now the preamp is a classic CM 7777 with old-fashioned power supply, but I'll keep that USB point in mind when the CM 7777 needs replacement -- not soon, I hope.


----------



## rabbit73

wildwillie6 said:


> Everything worked so well that I'm reluctant to change anything . . . I assume that the DC Block won't weaken the signal on that leg?


Even if you used the DC block for TV2, it wouldn't do any more harm than the DC block (C2 series capacitor that blocks DC and passes RF signals) that is built in the CM 0747 power supply/power inserter for TV1.












> And, for now the preamp is a classic CM 7777 with old-fashioned power supply, but I'll keep that USB point in mind when the CM 7777 needs replacement -- not soon, I hope.


The original CM 7777 is my favorite preamp.


----------



## tylerSC

Disappointing to see Home Depot no longer carries Winegard LNA200 preamp. Only RCA inline amp. With most Radioshacks closed down, you would think they would keep a good antenna preamplifier. At least Lowe's still has the RCA preamp.


----------



## bernieoc

Indoor antenna question.
I now receive vhf 3 from 50 miles thru trees and buildings with a large ch 3 specific antenna on the roof - reception great - occasional break ups when windy or stormy. Four bay in attic for uhf - all good- tvfool said indoor ant should work.

I am moving to retirement apartment - can be indoor only - tvfool just as good and I will 30 feet higher - no trees - no buildings - windows directly facing source 45 miles.

probably any indoor will receive all uhf stations - what indoor antenna might also work with ch 3 (PBS favorite station)
I believe two uhf channels will also move to 7 and 13 later this year.

I would like to avoiding -buying -trying -returning on line purchases - your guidence will at least start me with something that has a chance.


----------



## Calaveras

bernieoc said:


> Indoor antenna question.
> I now receive vhf 3 from 50 miles thru trees and buildings with a large ch 3 specific antenna on the roof - reception great - occasional break ups when windy or stormy. Four bay in attic for uhf - all good- tvfool said indoor ant should work.
> 
> I am moving to retirement apartment - can be indoor only - tvfool just as good and I will 30 feet higher - no trees - no buildings - windows directly facing source 45 miles.
> 
> probably any indoor will receive all uhf stations - what indoor antenna might also work with ch 3 (PBS favorite station)
> I believe two uhf channels will also move to 7 and 13 later this year.
> 
> I would like to avoiding -buying -trying -returning on line purchases - your guidence will at least start me with something that has a chance.



No trees, no buildings and a window facing the right direction is the good news. The bad news is low VHF indoors is tough. There's not much to try besides the old fashioned rabbit ears that you can pull out to a length required for RF 3 - about 89". Then you'll have to move it around to see if there's a place where it will work.

I'm curious as to what station is this? It's unusual to be stuck with low VHF for a major network station.


----------



## bernieoc

WBRA Roanoke VA - Blue Ridge PBS CH 3 we also have ABC Lynchburg ch 13 going ch 7


----------



## Calaveras

bernieoc said:


> WBRA Roanoke VA - Blue Ridge PBS CH 3 we also have ABC Lynchburg ch 13 going ch 7



13 to 7 shouldn't be any more difficult because both are high VHF but high VHF is more difficult than UHF indoors. I have some experience comparing outdoor and indoor antennas and low VHF suffered the most indoors. It's not just that the signal is much weaker but the manmade noise is so much worse indoors.

Good luck.


----------



## rabbit73

bernieoc said:


> Indoor antenna question.
> 
> I am moving to retirement apartment - can be indoor only - tvfool just as good and I will 30 feet higher - no trees - no buildings - windows directly facing source 45 miles.
> 
> what indoor antenna might also work with ch 3 (PBS favorite station)
> 
> I would like to avoiding -buying -trying -returning on line purchases - your guidence will at least start me with something that has a chance.


Hello, bernieoc. I also must use an indoor antenna. 

What does your TVFool signal report look like for that location?

As Calaveras indicated, the CH3 antenna will be long for that frequency to be efficient, and the ambient noise level where the antenna is located must not be too high.

If you want to test a ready made antenna for VHF-Low, consider the Winegard HD7000R.
https://www.amazon.com/Winegard-Company-Compact-Antenna-HD7000R/dp/B001TIQ6SW

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Winegard-Hd7000r-Vhf-uhf-Hdtv-Antenna-5-2-Db-hd7000r/19410172

I have done some experiments with a DIY folded dipole. I measured the indoor noise level and calculated how strong the signal would need to be for reception at my location. As you can see, a CH3 signal would need to be much stronger than for CH 7-13 because of the higher noise level on VHF-Low.










If you don't have any way to measure the noise level at your location as I do, you must make some tests with a CH3 antenna to see if it will work. This is the DIY CH3 folded dipole I built:



















It uses 14 gauge solid copper insulated building wire from Home Depot, yardsticks, and masking tape. 










More details here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...-related-hardware-topic-581.html#post56930992


----------



## Primestar31

bernieoc said:


> WBRA Roanoke VA - Blue Ridge PBS CH 3 we also have ABC Lynchburg ch 13 going ch 7


Are there no alternative PBS stations receivable in your area, already in the UHF band?


----------



## PCTools

I never had any love for the LNA200.

I prefer the Channel Master (vintage) 7777 and the Winegard AP2880 and the AP-2870.




tylerSC said:


> Disappointing to see Home Depot no longer carries Winegard LNA200 preamp. Only RCA inline amp. With most Radioshacks closed down, you would think they would keep a good antenna preamplifier. At least Lowe's still has the RCA preamp.


----------



## rabbit73

Primestar31 said:


> Are there no alternative PBS stations receivable in your area, already in the UHF band?


I asked bernieoc for a signal report, but he didn't give it. I did find some background information:



bernieoc said:


> Channel 3
> Question - I am moving to retirement appartment (I am 84) with big windows facing the tower site at same distance as now. I think I will have no problem with U channels with simple indoor antenna. What about CH 3? What can I try indoor at window or outside that can not be seen. TVFOOL has CH 3 in green.
> 
> Cable is available - but I have been using DTV PAL DVR and DVR+ from their day 1 availability - going back to cable would be painful.
> Thanks for any advice





bernieoc said:


> Antenna question
> I receive all Roanoke and Bedford OTA in Altavista with a 4 bay in the attic and a big ch 3 antenna on the roof - 50 miles thru trees and houses - great reception on all (ch 3 sensitive to interference).
> 
> We will move to Summit retirement apartment in Lynchburg - up high - clear west view to both Bedford and Roanoke - 4 degrees apart 52 mi. Roanoke - Bedford much closer.
> 
> Will be limited to indoor antenna - should not be a problem - TVFOOL shows all good with indoor antenna.
> 
> Question -suggest any indoor antenna that might pick up VHF ch 3 and 13 ? Buying and returninng antennas not very practical. I assume ch 3 is a problem for all OTA folks.


This is a TVFool report for Summit Retirement. WBRA is not in the green at the default height.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=9038a6f6547bff
25ft NM 34.8 dB 1Edge
50ft 36.7 dB 1Edge green
75ft 38.5 dB 1Edge
100ft 46.6 dB LOS










A report from rabbitears.info has a more accurate list of channels because TVFool is using a defective database to generate reports:










There is a hill in the WBRA signal path just before your location:


----------



## Primestar31

rabbit73 said:


> I asked bernieoc for a signal report, but he didn't give it. I did find some background information:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a TVFool report for Summit Retirement. WBRA is not in the green at the default height.
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=9038a6f6547bff


That TvFool report is just nasty, IMO.


----------



## rabbit73

Primestar31 said:


> That TvFool report is just nasty, IMO.


One advantage of VHF-Low is that it can make it over rough terrain better than VHF-High and UHF.


----------



## ProjectSHO89

rabbit73 said:


> One advantage of VHF-Low is that it can make it over rough terrain better than VHF-High and UHF.


 Yeah, but it can't get indoors once it arrives. Even if some of it does, it will get drowned out by all the indoor noise.


----------



## rabbit73

You are right about the noise problem, but the VHF building penetration loss at my location is less than I expected it to be.

I'm wondering about the building penetration loss for bernieoc at his new location. He will just have to try a WBRA reception test.


----------



## JHBrandt

rabbit73 said:


> This is a TVFool report for Summit Retirement. WBRA is not in the green *at the default height.*
> 
> There is a hill in the WBRA signal path just before your location:


Wait - don't forget this part:


bernieoc said:


> I am moving to retirement apartment - can be indoor only - tvfool just as good *and I will 30 feet higher *- no trees - no buildings - windows directly facing source 45 miles.


Sounds to me like bernieoc will be in a 4th-story apartment. You might want to rerun the TVFool / RabbitEars reports at 35 feet. That hill may not be as much of a problem as it seems.


----------



## Larry Kenney

I've been surprised at how well the signals get through on Low-VHF. We have low power stations on channels 2, 3 and 4 here in the SF Bay Area. 3 and 4 are just 14 miles away and they boom in here. What surprises me, though, is KQRO on channel 2. It's 15 kW transmitter is 56 miles away and it comes in here solid on my Winegard U-8200.

Larry


----------



## rabbit73

JHBrandt said:


> Wait - don't forget this part:
> Sounds to me like bernieoc will be in a 4th-story apartment. You might want to rerun the TVFool / RabbitEars reports at 35 feet. That hill may not be as much of a problem as it seems.


After running a report at the default height, I used the TVFool Interactive Map to see the affect of different heights for the WBRA signal:



rabbit73 said:


> I asked bernieoc for a signal report, but he didn't give it. I did find some background information:
> 
> This is a TVFool report for Summit Retirement. WBRA is not in the green at the default height.
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9038a6f6547bff
> 
> 25ft NM 34.8 dB 1Edge
> 
> 50ft 36.7 dB 1Edge green
> 
> 75ft 38.5 dB 1Edge
> 
> 100ft 46.6 dB LOS


I used 25ft for the rabbitears.info report. The FCC TV Study software used for those reports is a little less accurate for location than the TVFool software; about to the nearest 0.5 km. The TVFool software, about 1 or 2 football fields.

He is still going need to make a real-world test, because the building penetration loss is an unknown factor, and the TVFool report software doesn't include the affect of ground clutter. The WBRA signal grazes the surface just before his location.

Is that sufficient?


----------



## bernieoc

There is a balcony almost perpendicular to source - antenna not allowed - but ch 3 dipole as described (or rabbit ears) could be almost invisable - would need to get signal inside - balcony has glass panels tight shutting doors.

Thank you for clarifying the reception info. I am not clear on how to post the info - the immediate terrain on the Summit west's is actually lower than 1st floor - elevations could be 30/40/50/feet - the entire rear facing is well above a parking area and a lake with a wooded hilly view beyond.

It is clear I will have to try when I get there (requested upper floor) - meanwhile I will work on a DIY 88 inch almost invisible antenna.
Thank you -


----------



## rabbit73

bernieoc said:


> There is a balcony almost perpendicular to source - antenna not allowed - but ch 3 dipole as described (or rabbit ears) could be almost invisable - would need to get signal inside - balcony has glass panels tight shutting doors.


If you find that inside the window doesn't work, you will have to try outside. If the door is tight shutting, you can't use a flat 75ohm jumper. There is a way to get a 300 ohm signal through glass, with two disks on each side of the glass. The glass between the outside and inside disks acts as a coupling capacitor.


> Thank you for clarifying the reception info. I am not clear on how to post the info - the immediate terrain on the Summit west's is actually lower than 1st floor - elevations could be 30/40/50/feet - the entire rear facing is well above a parking area and a lake with a wooded hilly view beyond.































> It is clear I will have to try when I get there (requested upper floor) - meanwhile I will work on a DIY 88 inch almost invisible antenna.


Good










https://www.mfjenterprises.com/Product.php?productid=MFJ-18T050

Support antenna away from metal objects.

Attic antenna?

cyclist44 in Canada tried to use an FM folded dipole for CH 2 and 4, but it didn't work. My measurements show that it gives signals that are about 10 dB too weak; the antenna isn't long enough for those channels.


----------



## gbynum

bernieoc, another thing to think about ... if that is a newer building, E-glass glazing is a potential problem. The thin metallic films wreak havoc with RF transmission. Have you tried anything from the building? Foil backed sheathing ... ???


----------



## rabbit73

Yup, low-e glass will block TV signals.


----------



## DrDon

rabbit73 said:


> Yup, low-e glass will block TV signals.


Learned that the hard way. Put hurricane windows in our place in FL and had them tinted. It's also the window where my XM antenna sat. Long story short, we stream XM, now.


----------



## Calaveras

Sometime ago when I was doing some other tests with an XG91 indoors, I ran a glass attenuation test. The attached spectrum analyzer image shows the difference between channel 40 with no glass and a dual pane low E sliding glass door closed. The signal is very choppy because all I can see from my house is reflections off of mountains. The average glass attenuation was about 9 dB.


----------



## JHBrandt

bernieoc said:


> There is a balcony almost perpendicular to source - antenna not allowed - but ch 3 dipole as described (or rabbit ears) could be almost invisible - would need to get signal inside - balcony has glass panels tight shutting doors.


I realize you probably don't want to get into a fight with your landlord right after moving in, but if it comes to that, the law is probably on your side: https://www.fcc.gov/media/over-air-reception-devices-rule

Essentially, if it's *your* balcony, and you (and only you) have access to it, they generally can't stop you from putting up a reasonable antenna. But if it's a shared balcony between your apartment and someone else's apartment, they can.

Still, I too would prefer an almost-invisible antenna. There are "flat cable" products to get signals through a doorway that may help.

Also, if a single folded dipole isn't *quite* enough, you can get an extra 3 dB or so by ganging two identical dipoles together. Perhaps one along the top of the doorway and one along the bottom. Holl-ands could probably help come up with a design that would remain reasonably inconspicuous.


----------



## tylerSC

JHBrandt said:


> I realize you probably don't want to get into a fight with your landlord right after moving in, but if it comes to that, the law is probably on your side: https://www.fcc.gov/media/over-air-reception-devices-rule
> 
> Essentially, if it's *your* balcony, and you (and only you) have access to it, they generally can't stop you from putting up a reasonable antenna. But if it's a shared balcony between your apartment and someone else's apartment, they can.
> 
> Still, I too would prefer an almost-invisible antenna. There are "flat cable" products to get signals through a doorway that may help.
> 
> Also, if a single folded dipole isn't *quite* enough, you can get an extra 3 dB or so by ganging two identical dipoles together. Perhaps one along the top of the doorway and one along the bottom. Holl-ands could probably help come up with a design that would remain reasonably inconspicuous.


My new HOA says antenna may not be visible from the street. So must be below the roof on backside of the house. Is this violation of the FCC OTARD rules?


----------



## rabbit73

tylerSC said:


> My new HOA says antenna may not be visible from the street. So must be below the roof on backside of the house. Is this violation of the FCC OTARD rules?


If your house is free standing and not a condo, it probably is a violation of OTARD. The FCC says your antenna can be as high as 12 ft above the peak of your roof.

OTARD prohibits restrictions that preclude reception of an acceptable quality signal.



> a regulation requiring that antennas be placed in a particular location on a house such as the side or the rear, might be permissible if this placement does not prevent reception of an acceptable quality signal or impose unreasonable expense or delay. For example, if installing an antenna in the rear of the house costs significantly more than installation on the side of the house, then such a requirement would be prohibited. If, however, installation in the rear of the house does not impose unreasonable expense or delay or preclude reception of an acceptable quality signal, then the restriction is permissible and the viewer must comply.


----------



## JHBrandt

IANAL but I believe it is. The OTARD rule allows antennas to be up to 12 feet above the roofline.

The OTARD rule is not well-known, so I'm not surprised that so many landlords and HOAs have rules that are in violation of it.

Of course, petitioning the FCC for relief is generally a last resort; most folks would prefer to work something out if possible. If an antenna that complies with HOA rules won't work for you, perhaps they'd be OK with one painted sky blue?


----------



## andy416us

Does anyone know what changes were made to the ANT-751E model? The mounting hardware is in the rear again. Thanks


----------



## jkeldo

andy416us said:


> Does anyone know what changes were made to the ANT-751E model? The mounting hardware is in the rear again. Thanks
> 
> https://youtu.be/8Ujo4zUSxIE


Don't know but if you need information regarding the differences between the 751 and 7511 which had the image of the 751 on the box, check out this link:

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=16264

It seems that the 7511 was inferior so maybe they went back to the original design assuming your model is a newer one. RCA has also used different letters for their antenna amplifier TVPRAMP1 but the units look to be the same.

I forgot to mention that is a great video for someone installing that model or similar. Very helpful.


----------



## mattdp

At least with the preamps, the original model number was TVPRAMP1R and then TVPRAMP1Z and now currently TVPRAMP1E. The color of the box changed from white blue. That (I think) is about it.


----------



## jkeldo

tylerSC said:


> Disappointing to see Home Depot no longer carries Winegard LNA200 preamp. Only RCA inline amp. With most Radioshacks closed down, you would think they would keep a good antenna preamplifier. At least Lowe's still has the RCA preamp.


Hope Depot is carrying the Winegard on their web site. If someone lives near the store, it could be easily returned if it doesn't work out.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Winegard-Boost-XT-Digital-HDTV-Preamplifier-LNA-200/205496018


----------



## Roginator5

Dumb question. If the stations you want are close to due north and you have a north facing wall, can you simply slap an antenna like the CM-4228HD against the outside wall?

The only reason I can see for avoiding this is a small lightning danger (at least where I live). I wouldn't think the area behind the antenna would add anything to the signal.


----------



## holl_ands

I once tried temporarily hanging a 4-Bay against the Brick Wall on one side of a Garage....nada....had to manually hold it several inches away before it began to get signals....as the Peanut Gallery in the Living Room said HOW IT RIGHT THERE, we want to watch what's on!!!!

Apparently, the close proximity of the Brick Wall was changing the Antenna Performance (Brick has lots of conductive Carbon & Iron in it...and perhaps even some Iron ReBar buried inside). So if it works...Great....but if not, you might want to experiment with mounting it 3-6 inches [or more] away from the Wall.


----------



## Intheswamp

holl_ands said:


> I once tried temporarily hanging a 4-Bay against the Brick Wall on one side of a Garage....nada....had to manually hold it several inches away before it began to get signals....as the Peanut Gallery in the Living Room said HOW IT RIGHT THERE, we want to watch what's on!!!!
> 
> Apparently, the close proximity of the Brick Wall was changing the Antenna Performance (Brick has lots of conductive Carbon & Iron in it...and perhaps even some Iron ReBar buried inside). So if it works...Great....but if not, you might want to experiment with mounting it 3-6 inches [or more] away from the Wall.


Conversely, at my daughter's house I was having trouble getting reception of her local ABC affiliate. The main antenna (CS2max) plane was at 90-degrees to this station. I combined a 2-bay "Eagle" brand bow-tie antenna with the CS2max and hung it flush against the side of the vinyl-siding of the house. Shazamm!!!!! Great reception!!!!

@Roginator5 , I have no idea how a 4228 will work against your wall or what your wall is built out of, but lots of time getting good reception comes about from experimentation. The wall behind the antenna could actually act as a shield in blocking unwanted signals from hitting the antenna from the rear. Or, it could de-tune the antenna causing reception to be bad/weak. Lots of things like the distance to transmitters, topography between you and and the transmitters, nearby buildings, etc., all come into play. Personally, I'd get a small antenna and a piece of coax long enough to go outside and reach to several points on the north wall. Having sufficient coax cable will let you find a "hot spot" by moving along the length of the wall. It might work...or it might not work. You really won't know until you do a little testing.  Best wishes!!! Ed


----------



## Roginator5

*Antenna idea*

Mad experimenter here...

You know how VHF-low dipole antennas are very long? What if instead of a solid copper or aluminum rod, you used two coiled springs around a plastic post? You could adjust the spring lengths by stretching them to notches or bumps on the plastic post. Maybe even have the post marked with channel numbers.

I'd like to see the NEC program figure THAT out.


----------



## SFischer1

Roginator5 said:


> Mad experimenter here...
> 
> You know how VHF-low dipole antennas are very long? What if instead of a solid copper or aluminum rod, you used two coiled springs around a plastic post? You could adjust the spring lengths by stretching them to notches or bumps on the plastic post. Maybe even have the post marked with channel numbers.
> 
> I'd like to see the NEC program figure THAT out.


For HDTV RF 2 the plastic post would need to be very wide, (17.5 / 2 feet).

I know that is about right as I put a VHF Hi-Lo antenna in my attic tied up with string.

Many resources on the internet, it took a little searching to find the length for RF 2.

SHF


----------



## ncsercs

Considering how much of a hassle it is to get a VHF signal in some places and that it's much easier for UHF, why don't TV stations just get off VHF and move over to UHF? Just Curious.


----------



## SFischer1

ncsercs said:


> Considering how much of a hassle it is to get a VHF signal in some places and that it's much easier for UHF, why don't TV stations just get off VHF and move over to UHF? Just Curious.


Actually many stations, PBS stations were many, made the move in the opposite direction.

WHY? Example:

$72M for KRCB moving from RF 23 to RF 5, a move that that would prevent me from receiving that station. 

$12M went to purchase another station (KCSM) which lost Millions and Millions because of a clerical error. KCSM should have received a similar $72M+++ to go off the air. Lawyers have started dueling lawsuits but I have not seen any news lately.

So KRCB now owns a station on Sutro named KPJK. But wait, KRCB is moving to Sutro so I have a chance.

So there will be in 2020 three (3) PBS stations on Sutro.

National PBS must be crying foul heard here all the way from Boston and New York City. No news about that.

Plus all the stations that are moving in frequency get a brand new transmitter for free from the FCC. (~ $19.8B) Wonder why smart phones cost so much?

SHF


----------



## JHBrandt

ncsercs said:


> Considering how much of a hassle it is to get a VHF signal in some places and that it's much easier for UHF, why don't TV stations just get off VHF and move over to UHF? Just Curious.


Since the incentive auction, in the bigger markets there's just not enough room up there.

The UHF spectrum allocated for TV stations to use has been steadily shrinking. Back when I was young there were 69 (channel 37 was never used) UHF channels: 14-83!

Channels 70-83 went away first, to make room for cell phones. That wasn't a big deal because the UHF spectrum was very sparely populated back then. Most of us remember the spectrum going from 14-69.

Then with the transition to digital, channels 52-69 went away, to make more room for cell phones. Again it wasn't a big deal for the same reason: there weren't that many UHF stations before the switch to digital.

But digital TV changed the equation. Suddenly UHF became the preferred band. Unfortunately Congress was slow to recognize this, and mandated a sell-off of yet more spectrum; so we're now in the process of clearing out channels 38-51. Once that's done, we'll have only 23 UHF channels (14-36) left; only a third of what we started with. (Also, some cities have a 3-channel gap allocated to police radio, so they're down to only 20 UHF channels )


----------



## Calaveras

ncsercs said:


> Considering how much of a hassle it is to get a VHF signal in some places and that it's much easier for UHF, why don't TV stations just get off VHF and move over to UHF? Just Curious.


With the repack there are no open UHF channels in the major markets. Some stations had to go to VHF.


----------



## Calaveras

Roginator5 said:


> Mad experimenter here...
> 
> You know how VHF-low dipole antennas are very long? What if instead of a solid copper or aluminum rod, you used two coiled springs around a plastic post? You could adjust the spring lengths by stretching them to notches or bumps on the plastic post. Maybe even have the post marked with channel numbers.
> 
> I'd like to see the NEC program figure THAT out.



I'll give you credit for the idea but that's not how it works.  The total length of wire needed for a dipole doesn't change much whether it is straight or coiled. This is where the idea of a "loaded" dipole comes from, typically with coils in the middle of the dipole to shorten its length. A shortened dipole with coils has compromises. The shorter it is, the narrower its bandwidth gets. The shorter it is, the lower the feed impedance. A very short loaded dipole can have a feed impedance of just a few ohms which makes it hard to match. A full sized dipole impedance is 75 ohms. A 2/3 sized loaded dipole impedance is 50 ohms. A 1/2 sized loaded dipole impedance is 25 ohms. The shorter the loaded dipole, the more inefficient it becomes because it intercepts less of the magnetic field it's in generating less signal.

Back to your spring idea.... Stretching a dipole made out of springs won't change the frequency to which it's tuned because the total wire length doesn't change. You will change the impedance and bandwidth though.


----------



## SFischer1

ncsercs said:


> Considering how much of a hassle it is to get a VHF signal in some places and that it's much easier for UHF, why don't TV stations just get off VHF and move over to UHF? Just Curious.


I suggest you do some research to determine the lowest RF channel you need to receive after the repack.

https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php

Selecting your market allows you to view the repack channels, look for the stations moving to VHF and find the lowest one you will desire.

RF 5 may be the lowest you need, much smaller size than a RF 2 antenna and buildable.

I am set up for RF 7 and that works just fine. Receiving a RF 5 signal at 36 miles might be doable, I will know in 2020 if my CM4228HD works.

SHF


----------



## JHBrandt

Looks like the Chicago market. The only post-repack VHF-Lo stations will be WUVI/65 and WOCK/13. WUVI appears not to be on the air, and WOCK seems to be targeting Korean/Asian viewers, so @ncsercs probably doesn't need to worry about either of those stations.

VHF-Hi stations will be WCHU/61, which is Spanish, then WRJK/22. WRJK has Comet so it may be worth trying to receive. It will be on RF 11 after the repack.

So, a UHF/VHF-Hi combo, like a CM-4228HD, would probably be a good choice for most Chicago-area viewers.


----------



## holl_ands

PCB Balun in modern [UHF ONLY] Antennas (such as CM4228HD, DB-8e, HDB-8X, 91XG, etc) will attenuate VHF Signals....so to receive Hi-VHF Channels, you would need to MODIFY Antenna, replacing PCB Balun Box with a conventional 300:75-ohm Transformer Balun. Even better, do ONE of the fol. HHH Mods at the same time to improve UHF + Hi-VHF Gain Curve and esp. Hi-VHF SWR:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl/cm4228hdhhhtsrsyrod [Also Hi-VHF Gain Improvement]
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl/newcm4228hdwithhollandshorizharness [Just UHF Gain Improvement]
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl/cm4228hd [CM4228HD As Shipped]


----------



## Calaveras

Antenna Comparisons

Here's something just for fun. For years my UHF antennas have been a pair of XG91s that I have optimized to squeeze every dB out of them. My high VHF antenna has been a homemade a 22 element LPDA on an 18' boom. I used design parameters to max out the size of the LPDA. As back-up antennas on a different tower I had a homemade 37 element LPDA for UHF also designed to max out the size and a custom designed 10 element yagi for high VHF.

Recently I needed to take down the XG91s and the 22 element LPDA and replace them with the smaller 37 element UHF LPDA and the 10 element high VHF yagi. Before I made the switch I captured a number of spectrum analyzer displays and many VHF and UHF stations from both sets of antennas. After the switch I captured another set of analyzer displays. Using Photoshop I combined and labeled the displays. 

Attached are the results. The comparison of most interest are the yellow traces (original antennas) and the cyan traces (smaller antennas). Both sets of antennas are in the same position on the tower. The magenta traces are the smaller antennas on the second tower. I had to make "Gain Adjustments" on UHF because the 37 element LPDA used a preamp with 7 dB more gain. The "+5 dB" and the "-2 dB" are referenced to the magenta traces. It's not just one +7 dB adjustment because the coax going to the second tower had 2 dB more loss (+7dB Gain - 2dB = +5 db). Hopefully this is not too confusing.

Modeling for the XG91 shows it to have increasing gain with frequency and the 37 element LPDA to have decreasing gain with frequency. Same goes for the 10 element VHF yagi and the 22 element element VHF LPDA.

I don't understand why the 22 element LPDA is so much better than the 10 element yagi. I have no reason to think that the 10 element yagi is not working. On UHF the performance of each antenna is generally as expected. The XG91 gain is lowest at the low frequency end. The 37 element LPDA is as good or better then the pair of XG91s on channel 15. The XG91s really shine above channel 35 but that doesn't mean much after the repack.

I'm hoping that after the repack the XG91s will be redesigned for the repacked UHF band.


----------



## ctdish

If I understand your plots the VHF yagi performed about the same as the LPA when the yagi was mounted on the lower tower. I would suspect something happened when it was moved.
John


----------



## DigitalGriffin

Which would you pick?

My TVFool:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=90380db6808f9c


I currently have an antenna similar to this one with the RCA Pre-amp:
It barely pulls in 43.1 which is at the edge of the green zone. I'm not impressed with it's strength

https://store.antennasdirect.com/ClearStream-2MAX-Indoor-Outdoor-TV-Antenna.html









I'm attached to a J Pole outside. So I'm looking to upgrade. I thought about rotating this one north, and getting a new antenna and pointing it west.

I think traditional Yagi is the way to go here. I was looking at these two:









GE Yagi









RCA mini Yagi

Or do you have a better recommendation?


----------



## DigitalGriffin

SFischer1 said:


> You should study Larry's "Repack channel listings". It is too close to 2020 when the repack will happen for anyone to make any antenna choice based on today.
> 
> Note: You cannot combine two antennas except for a VHF only one and a UHF only one.
> 
> https://larrykenney.com/sfonair3.html
> 
> SHF


I understand repack is just a changing of channels to free up unused space and reallocate for other purposes including ATSC 3.0 transmissions. Is this correct? So why would antenna choice matter here? As I understand it, the current locations for antennas is not going to change. And only 1 channel uses VHF (8.1/8.2) Plus, none of my planned stations is listed for the ATSC 3.0 rollout (Harrisburg/York PA area). So I'm pretty sure I'm not affected.

That said, there's no reason you can't combine multiple directional antennas via a splitter/combiner that I'm aware of. Yes I realize I'll lose 3dB on each.

Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## SFischer1

DigitalGriffin said:


> I understand repack is just a changing of channels to free up unused space and reallocate for other purposes. Is this correct? So why would antenna choice matter here? As I understand it, the current locations for antennas is not going to change. And only 1 channel uses VHF (8.1/8.2) Plus, none of my planned stations is listed for the ATSC 3.0 rollout.
> 
> That said, there's no reason you can't combine multiple directional antennas via a splitter/combiner that I'm aware of. Yes I realize I'll lose 3dB on each.
> 
> Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


*Combining two VHF antenna with a combiner is a great method of producing multipath, the result may be for some channels NO Picture and NO Sound.*

*Exact ally the same for two UHF antennas.*

The results of combining any two antennas is unpredictable but usually very bad.

Some stations moved from UHF to VHF, usually PBS.

For a quick way to check the new channels for your market, check your market(s) here:

https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php 

Look at the physical channels, if a number 14 or above changes to 13 or below, the station has received lots of Millions of dollars.

Another list to check is:

https://www.rabbitears.info/repackchannels.php

As to when the repack will occur for a market, this is a hard way do find out:

https://www.rabbitears.info/phasemap.php

Hopefully some one else can provide an easier method of finding your repack date(s). 

My solution is to use separate tuners for antennas.

I have six tuners on my main outside antenna.

The two additional indoor antennas each have separate tuners, one tuner has an input switch so it can use both my main antenna and it's very own indoor antenna.

-----------------------------------------

ATSC 3.0 uses the exact same antennas as ATSC 1.0 - 2.0.

The problem is that during the transition stations may agree to combine their signals on one transmitter thus what channel you need to receive may change.

Combining stations on Lighthouse stations using ATSC 1.0 - 2.0 may exist for many years and ATSC 3.0 agreements may change.

------------------------------------------

Sorry about the reply I deleted, I am busy getting my automatic scheduling and capture program set up for a station that changed ownership with new programming I am interested in at midnight. I did not realize your post was here.

I know somewhere there is a good method to find your repack dates, I don't have time right. now

SHF


----------



## richart

DigitalGriffin said:


> That said, there's no reason you can't combine multiple directional antennas via a splitter/combiner that I'm aware of. Yes I realize I'll lose 3dB on each.
> 
> Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


You can combine a VHF antenna with a UHF antenna using a special UVSJ combiner.

You can combine two identical antennas pointing in the same direction using a phasing harness to increase signal strength.

However, it is very difficult to combine antennas using a common splitter/combiner. You will receive some stations at one antenna that are slightly out of phase with the other antenna (even if they are pointing in opposite directions). The result when you combine them is that the signals can greatly decrease or cancel each other out completely. I am working with someone on a different forum who is experiencing that problem right now. 

You can however combine antennas using a specially designed selective combiner that receives a specific channel on one antenna and another group of channels on another antenna. You need to spend a little time and identify exactly which channels you want to receive with each antenna. I think you can specify up to four inputs.

For example, all of my stations are located to my southeast except for one that is located north of me (channel 31). I use a selective combiner that is tuned for channel 31 on one input and the other channels on the other input. The only place I know of that is still making them is in Slovakia. The one I ordered is of very good quality and the price was reasonable. Since my station on 31 is moving to 16 in the repack, I will have to replace it soon. You can order them from Jan Jenca in Slovakia: http://www.antenne-komponenty.eu/english/main/product/zlucovace.html


----------



## SFischer1

richart said:


> …
> 
> Slovakia: http://www.antenne-komponenty.eu/english/main/product/zlucovace.html


All good information, without further analysis I cannot say if it applies to the OP. Web page is dated 2009.

Planning a trip, 80 h 59 min flight for me to visit. 

SHF


----------



## richart

SFischer1 said:


> All good information, without further analysis I cannot say if it applies to the OP. Web page is dated 2009.
> 
> Planning a trip, 80 h 59 min flight for me to visit.
> 
> SHF


I dealt with him much more recently than that. He is still selling and currently takes orders on eBay also using the seller name jan_jenca. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Selective-...548896?hash=item1cceea58a0:g:iS4AAOSwtHZbgm90

May or may not be applicable to the OP...it all depends on what channels he is looking for on the different antennas.


----------



## rabbit73

DigitalGriffin said:


> My TVFool:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=90380db6808f9c
> 
> I currently have an antenna similar to this one with the RCA Pre-amp:
> It barely pulls in 43.1 which is at the edge of the green zone. I'm not impressed with it's strength
> 
> https://store.antennasdirect.com/ClearStream-2MAX-Indoor-Outdoor-TV-Antenna.html


If you don't have good reception of 43.1 with that antenna, something else is wrong besides the antenna.

WPMT Fox is now a guest on the WITF transmitter:

https://rabbitears.info//market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WPMT#station

https://rabbitears.info//market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WITF

Repack Plan:
https://rabbitears.info/repackchann...state=&mktid=49&owner=&sort=&ph=&lss=&status=

WITF is running much less power, it's in a different direction, and you are behind a hill for its signal.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=90380db6808f9c&t=ALLTV&n=7

Your antenna is behind the hill at the right end.


----------



## SFischer1

rabbit73 said:


> If you don't have good reception of 43.1 with that antenna, something else is wrong besides the antenna.


When I saw the post from the OP not realizing he was not in my market, the problem with 43.1 jumped out at me tricking my mind further into thinking it was my market.

The KPJK transmitter has very serious problems. I reported the transmitter off the air for ~ 19 days and it has not been fixed for years.

This actually is a GOOD chart for KPJK, often the chart is almost solid red with transmit errors. I don't even try to watch it.

https://sfbayatsc.koherence.com/index.php/signal-data-charts/?bmon_channel=43

SHF


----------



## DigitalGriffin

rabbit73 said:


> If you don't have good reception of 43.1 with that antenna, something else is wrong besides the antenna.
> 
> WPMT Fox is now a guest on the WITF transmitter:
> https://rabbitears.info//market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WPMT#station
> 
> https://rabbitears.info//market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WITF
> 
> Repack Plan:
> https://rabbitears.info/repackchann...state=&mktid=49&owner=&sort=&ph=&lss=&status=


I honestly appreciate the information from the both of you. I didn't even think of multi path issues.

The channel 47 (43.1) problem is a strange one. I had decent reception for years using 2 seperate antennas (1 for each TV) (4 out of 5 bars) Then one day it just went to crud. I'm down to 2 out of 5 bars and on the edge of acceptable signal level (-55dB). The transmitter didn't change location or frequency, so I am a bit baffled. It affected both sets of antennas, so I am left to assume it was a change in the transmitter or some structure in between. A pre-amp is used to take care of line loss during a 50' RG6 run.

I would say I'm over boosting it (Clipping), but even my indoor rabbit ears type (with adjustable gain) doesn't work at any boost level.


----------



## rabbit73

DigitalGriffin said:


> I honestly appreciate the information from the both of you. I didn't even think of multi path issues.


It's not a multipath issue.


> The channel 47 (43.1) problem is a strange one. I had decent reception for years using 2 seperate antennas (1 for each TV) (4 out of 5 bars) Then one day it just went to crud. I'm down to 2 out of 5 bars and on the edge of acceptable signal level (-55dB).
> 
> The transmitter didn't change location or frequency, so I am a bit baffled. It affected both sets of antennas, so I am left to assume it was a change in the transmitter or some structure in between.


Fox WPMT, real channel 47, virtual channel 43.1, sold its license in the FCC Repack auction. Real channel 47 will be given to cellular interests. The UHF channels will be from 14 to 36.

Fox is now a subchannel for WITF which IS in a different direction AND is running less power.


----------



## holl_ands

TVFool may be more accurate, but it is NOT keeping up with the recent Channel Changes.
Using your Zipcode Location (nearest Post Office???) I did a Rabbitears SEARCH to find fol. Results:
https://www.rabbitears.info/search....6.81442979999997&tvstudy=Y&dbtype=dBm&height=
[For more accurate Results, you should do you own SEARCH, entering Zipcode, Address and Check "TV STUDY" Box. Click on CALLSIGN to reveal which Networks are carried by each Station.]

ChannelCallsignNetworkCommunity
of LicenseStateTransmitter
Distance (Miles)Direction
(True)Signal Strength (dBuV/m)Signal
Margin (dB) 

8‑1 (8) WGAL NBC LANCASTER PA 13.4 50° 97.68 Good 61.68 
15‑1 (21) WXBU IND LANCASTER PA 30.2 354° 83.92 Fair 46.9 
21‑1 (21) WHP-TV CBS HARRISBURG PA 30.2 354° 83.92 Fair 46.9 
33‑1 (36) WITF-TV PBS HARRISBURG PA 30.2 354° 80.67 Fair 43.65 
43‑1 (36) WPMT FOX YORK PA 30.2 354° 80.67 Fair 43.65 
8‑1 (49) WGAL NBC LANCASTER PA 30.2 354° 75.05 Fair 38.03 
12‑1 (14) W14DF-D REL ELLIOTTSBURG PA 19.9 317° 59.15  Poor 22.13 
49‑1 (10) WLYH IND RED LION PA 28.9 345° 59.00  Poor 23 
27‑1 (10) WHTM-TV ABC HARRISBURG PA 28.9 345° 59.00  Poor 23

It is "likely" that you will receive all of the above Stations using a suitable Outdoor Antenna pointed in the appropriate Direction....if that were possible.

Note that ALL of the "Fair" Signal Strength stations (except W14DF on Ch14) come from 317-354-deg, a Beamwidth to just 37-deg, well within capability of most TV Antennas. Your Strongest Station WGAL (NBC) is on Ch8, coming from 50-deg, more or less OPPOSITE from direction of weak WLYH (IND) and WHTM (ABC)....however WGAL (NBC) is ALSO on Ch49 with FAIR Reception predicted....so you don't necessarily NEED Ch8....which MIGHT be difficult to receive using a moderate Gain Hi-VHF Antenna pointed towards Ch10 anyway, cuz it would be on the BACK of the Antenna.

A-D CMAX2 only has a simple Dipole for Hi-VHF, so it would NOT be suitable to receive ABC on Ch10. GE doesn't BOTHER providing Antenna Gain Specs, so I don't BOTHER considering their Antennas for ANYTHING. The RCA ANT-751 would be a suitable choice to likely receive ALL of the "FAIR" Signal Strength Stations....and may or may NOT also receive Ch8 on the BACK of the Antenna....and only needs to be pointed in ONE Direction.

========================================================
BTW: In the future, when designated Channels in your Area transition to their new assignments, WHP (CBS) will move from Ch21 to Ch32...and W16CO (REL) will move from Ch16 to Ch21....W33CR will move from Ch33 to Ch34. Note that Signal Margins for many stations actually IMPROVES after Repack:
https://www.rabbitears.info/search....79999997&opkey=N&tvstudy=Y&dbtype=dBm&height=

*Post-Repack Search*
ChannelCallsignNetworkCommunity
of LicenseStateTransmitter
Distance (Miles)Direction
(True)Signal Strength (dBuV/m)Signal
Margin (dB) 

8‑1 (8) WGAL NBC LANCASTER PA 13.4 50° 97.68 Good 61.68 
21‑1 (32) WHP-TV CBS HARRISBURG PA 30.2 354° 92.27 Good 55.25 
33‑1 (36) WITF-TV PBS HARRISBURG PA 30.2 354° 83.71 Fair 46.69 
43‑1 (36) WPMT FOX YORK PA 30.2 354° 80.67 Fair 43.65 
8‑1 (35) WGAL NBC LANCASTER PA 30.2 354° 74.39 Fair 37.37 
27‑1 (10) WHTM-TV ABC HARRISBURG PA 28.9 345° 65.17 Fair 29.17 
12‑1 (14) W14DF-D REL ELLIOTTSBURG PA 19.9 317° 59.15  Poor 22.13 
49‑1 (10) WLYH IND RED LION PA 28.9 345° 59.00  Poor 23 
12‑1 (21) W16CO-D REL MIDDLEBURG PA 28.9 345° 56.54  Poor 19.52 
67‑1 (22) WMPB PBS BALTIMORE MD 32 176° 51.54  Poor 14.52 
35‑1 (7) W07DP-D REL HARRISBURG PA 29.1 339° 46.99  Poor 10.99 
2‑1 (27) WMAR-TV ABC BALTIMORE MD 40.6 167° 45.23  Poor 8.21 
54‑1 (25) WNUV CW BALTIMORE MD 40.6 167° 44.60  Poor 7.58 
13‑1 (11) WJZ-TV CBS BALTIMORE MD 40.6 167° 42.28  Poor 6.28 
45‑1 (26) WBFF FOX BALTIMORE MD 40.6 167° 41.93  Poor 4.91 
11‑1 (12) WBAL-TV NBC BALTIMORE MD 40.6 167° 41.51  Poor 5.51 
33‑1 (34) W33CR-D PBS CHAMBERSBURG PA 50.3 281° 35.21 Bad -1.81


----------



## DigitalGriffin

rabbit73 said:


> It's not a multipath issue.
> Fox WPMT, real channel 47, virtual channel 43.1, sold its license in the FCC Repack auction. Real channel 47 will be given to cellular interests. The UHF channels will be from 14 to 36.
> 
> Fox is now a subchannel for WITF which IS in a different direction AND is running less power.


This explains a lot. I guess the TVFool information is outdated.


----------



## SFischer1

DigitalGriffin said:


> This explains a lot. I guess the TVFool information is outdated.


These days, only a fool uses TVFool as you say the data is outdated. 

I spotted bad information just now, a transmitter that has been turned off is still listed.

SHF


----------



## lifespeed

DigitalGriffin said:


> I honestly appreciate the information from the both of you. I didn't even think of multi path issues.
> 
> The channel 47 (43.1) problem is a strange one. I had decent reception for years using 2 seperate antennas (1 for each TV) (4 out of 5 bars) Then one day it just went to crud. I'm down to 2 out of 5 bars and on the edge of acceptable signal level (-55dB). The transmitter didn't change location or frequency, so I am a bit baffled. It affected both sets of antennas, so I am left to assume it was a change in the transmitter or some structure in between. A pre-amp is used to take care of line loss during a 50' RG6 run.
> 
> I would say I'm over boosting it (Clipping), but even my indoor rabbit ears type (with adjustable gain) doesn't work at any boost level.



The right way to combine antennae is to use networked tuners from Silicondust as @SFischer1 said. I do the same thing. They're not particularly expensive, and with modern TVs accepting DLNA streams don't even require a networked media server setup if you want to keep it simple. Trying to make an RF combine work, which may be impossible depending on the particulars, makes no sense when such an easy and affordable multi-antenna solution is available.


A side benefit may be elimination of the distribution amp (tuner locate on a short coax run near the antenna) and coax snaking throughout your house, replaced with generally more-useful ethernet.


----------



## eherberg

Side Question: I've seen the warnings previously regarding combining antennas. In my situation, I've got only 3 receivable broadcasters (all High-VHF) - but 2 of them would be in completely opposite directions. I already know that a Stellar Labs 30-2475 will get the stations available ... just not at the same time (VHF 8 - 211 degrees - 67 miles; VHF 12 - 284 degrees - 8 miles; VHF 7 - 4 degrees - 43 miles). 

My question is about the problems with combining. I was looking at the Antenna Direct DB8 -- where it's just 2 identical antennas going into a not-fancy combiner. I get these are UHF antennas and unusable for my situation - but what is it about combining those with a pretty basic built-in combiner that works (at least enough to sell them) - but doing it elsewhere likely won't work?

The whole multi-direction possibility of OTA is certainly a frustrating aspect. I get why I'm the only masochist in my area that is considering OTA. Everybody else just foregoes the hassle involved and finds a basic pay solution.


----------



## lifespeed

eherberg said:


> Side Question: I've seen the warnings previously regarding combining antennas. In my situation, I've got only 3 receivable broadcasters (all High-VHF) - but 2 of them would be in completely opposite directions. I already know that a Stellar Labs 30-2475 will get the stations available ... just not at the same time (VHF 8 - 211 degrees - 67 miles; VHF 12 - 284 degrees - 8 miles; VHF 7 - 4 degrees - 43 miles).
> 
> My question is about the problems with combining. I was looking at the Antenna Direct DB8 -- where it's just 2 identical antennas going into a not-fancy combiner. I get these are UHF antennas and unusable for my situation - but what is it about combining those with a pretty basic built-in combiner that works (at least enough to sell them) - but doing it elsewhere likely won't work?
> 
> The whole multi-direction possibility of OTA is certainly a frustrating aspect. I get why I'm the only masochist in my area that is considering OTA. Everybody else just foregoes the hassle involved and finds a basic pay solution.



The DB8 is designed with the an equal-electrical-length combiner for all panels facing the same direction. As soon as you point them in different directions you're back to the same problems. A masochist would try and make RF combining work when there is a superior alternative available.


----------



## eherberg

So their marketing of 'the specially designed brackets allow the two panels to target broadcast towers in multiple directions' is not accurate? I would imagine that's why most people buy that particular model.


----------



## SFischer1

eherberg said:


> Side Question: I've seen the warnings previously regarding combining antennas. In my situation, I've got only 3 receivable broadcasters (all High-VHF) - but 2 of them would be in completely opposite directions. ...


A low gain VHF antenna (Three down to one arm ) may work just fine for stations 180 degrees apart. 

I found that RG59 coax laid across my upstairs room got RF 2 to my surprise, a station that I never expected to see as all my antennas are not usable. I was startled for a scan to find it.

But don't walk around, that even messes up my FM tuner.

A simple A/B manual switch might be an solution. Two different HDTVs for two antennas would also work. What are your tuners?

As most of my HDTV viewing is of time shifted captures that would not work for me.

SHF


----------



## rabbit73

eherberg said:


> My question is about the problems with combining. I was looking at the Antenna Direct DB8 -- where it's just 2 identical antennas going into a not-fancy combiner. I get these are UHF antennas and unusable for my situation - but what is it about combining those with a pretty basic built-in combiner that works (at least enough to sell them) - but doing it elsewhere likely won't work?


It works when both panels are aimed in the same direction, the two 4-bay sections are identical, and the two coax lines from each section are the same length. This is a way to increase gain. You can get as much as 2.5 dB more gain; 3 dB for two antennas, minus 0.5 dB internal loss of the splitter used in reverse as a combiner.

If the two antennas are aimed in different directions, it doesn't always work because the same signals from each antenna will interfere with each other at the combining point if they are not in phase (arrive at the same instant).

If you don't have all the signals after combining that you had when the antennas were separate, that method of combining doesn't work for you.


----------



## rabbit73

eherberg said:


> So their marketing of 'the specially designed brackets allow the two panels to target broadcast towers in multiple directions' is not accurate? I would imagine that's why most people buy that particular model.


Yeah, that's the marketing department talking, not an engineer with integrity.

The DB8e has the best chance of working when the two directions are at right angles (90 degrees apart).

In your case, there is more than one solution:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=9038965e7b31f8

1. An A/B/C switch, but if your tuner isn't able to add a channel after scan, you would need to rescan after changing directions.
2. Network tuners, like SiliconDust HDHR as mentioned above, if you and your family users are into computers.
3. Connect one antenna to the TV antenna input, and connect the other two antennas to separate converter box tuners with their outputs connected to the HDMI inputs of the TV.
4. Buy custom single channel insertion filters to combine all three into one coax. Filters are made by Tin Lee Electronics (expensive) and Jan Jenca (less expensive).


----------



## lifespeed

rabbit73 said:


> 2. Network tuners, like SiliconDust HDHR as mentioned above, if you and your family users are into computers.



Strictly speaking, you don't _need_ a computer to watch TV with a SiliconDust tuner. Any TV made in the last 5 years or even earlier can stream DLNA directly from a networked tuner. Yes, of course you can do more with a computer than you can with a standalone networked tuner - but that applies to the tuner inside your TV fed with coax as well.


----------



## rabbit73

DigitalGriffin said:


> This explains a lot. I guess the TVFool information is outdated.


Yes, they don't have sufficient staff to make corrections, and UHF Repack by the FCC has made it worse.










A report from rabbitears.info should have a more accurate list of channels:


----------



## JHBrandt

DigitalGriffin said:


> I understand repack is just a changing of channels to free up unused space and reallocate for other purposes including ATSC 3.0 transmissions. Is this correct?


I don't think this question was addressed directly, so here goes:

Repacking has nothing at all to do with ATSC 3.0. It resulted from increasing demand for LTE spectrum for cell phone companies. An auction was held, and when the dust settled, RF channels 38-51 had been auctioned off (mostly to T-Mobile, if you're curious).

Some stations sold their licenses and have already gone off the air; others have agreed to share a single RF frequency for two stations' channels. Those things have already happened, so they're already accounted for in your current channel line-up.


DigitalGriffin said:


> So why would antenna choice matter here? As I understand it, the current locations for antennas is not going to change. And only 1 channel uses VHF (8.1/8.2)


But the remaining stations have to be reshuffled to fit among the 35 remaining RF channels. That means some stations may be moving to VHF. Even worse, some may be moving to VHF-Lo. Also, neighboring markets have to "mesh," so some stations will be moving even though they already fit among RF channels 2-36.

You actually have three VHF stations, one of which you may not care about: W07DP on RF 7, WGAL on RF 8, and WHTM on RF 10. Luckily for you, it appears the Harrisburg, PA market has no additional stations moving to VHF in the repack.


DigitalGriffin said:


> So I'm pretty sure I'm not affected.


In your case, that appears to be essentially correct. But it's definitely not true for everyone.


DigitalGriffin said:


> That said, there's no reason you can't combine multiple directional antennas via a splitter/combiner that I'm aware of. Yes I realize I'll lose 3dB on each.


This question was addressed, but basically, the problem you face is that you have two sets of signals roughly 90 degrees apart from your perspective, plus a few more stations coming in from odd directions. If you combine two UHF antennas, you'd have to orient each one to "null out" the signals from one direction, so that it only picks up signals from the other. But no matter how you arrange it, a few stations will be picked up by both antennas, probably with slightly different phase, so they probably won't combine as straightforwardly as you might expect.


----------



## eherberg

rabbit73 said:


> Yes, they don't have sufficient staff to make corrections, and UHF Repack by the FCC has made it worse.


Or anybody available to do forum authorizations either. 

I think I'm pushing 14 months where I have a TVFool forum login -- but don't have the ability to make posts because no authorization sent. I haven't pressed any steps to remedy, though. Outside of ADTech and Rabbit, the other most prolific poster is apparently the forum lunatic ... a certain 'nascar' fan ... 

I agree about the state of TVFool -- I'm still surprised to see that it is still referred to both here and in other forums as a necessary element of getting help. "Please post your TVFool results ...". There's hardly a report that can be made from it now that can be counted on for accuracy. With the site owner MIA - I tend to only look at RabbitEars now whenever I want to look at a signal analysis.

On my own personal OTA situation -- even though it is likely a fool's errand, this summer I'll likely experiment with a combining attempt. The Stellar Labs antenna is cheap enough that I wouldn't be out too much in the likely event that it doesn't work. Right now, I don't have it permanently mounted. The hillbilly setup has it currently on a tripod in the yard with a flat coax jumper getting me from outside to inside. Set it up that way last fall and it worked pretty well for the winter. Point it South/SouthWest -- and I get WDAZ and KNRR. Point it North and I get CKY and KNRR. There is not a whisp of signal from WDAZ when pointing north ... and the same with nothing from CKY when pointing south. Even without a channel filter, I would want to see if the only real possible phase problems would be from the overlapping KNRR signal (which is indoor-antenna strong due to being the only local OTA tower in the area). If it doesn't work, I would look at a rotor for the permanent install this summer (not preferred due to DVR). Even 2 antennas feeding would be a bit of a kludge with SiliconDust registry editing and then DVR support limitations for multiple antennas. 2nd attempt would likely involve a channel filter on the antenna pointing north for CKY. Assuming, of course, that I just don't do what any sane person would do and utilize a streaming solution that doesn't have the built-in issues with a system created that uses directional receivers ... but sprinkles it's transmitters all over the compass.


----------



## rabbit73

eherberg said:


> I agree about the state of TVFool -- I'm still surprised to see that it is still referred to both here and in other forums as a necessary element of getting help. "Please post your TVFool results ...". There's hardly a report that can be made from it now that can be counted on for accuracy. With the site owner MIA - I tend to only look at RabbitEars now whenever I want to look at a signal analysis.


I still find the TVFool report useful; there aren't many other good options. Even though the list of channels isn't as accurate as a rabbitears.info report, it is more accurate as far as location is concerned, and it is easier to use for a newbie.. The TVStudy software used by rabbitears.info and the FCC DTV map is only accurate to the nearest 0.5 km. I like to see both to make a reception analysis.


> On my own personal OTA situation -- even though it is likely a fool's errand, this summer I'll likely experiment with a combining attempt.....Even without a channel filter, I would want to see if the only real possible phase problems would be from the overlapping KNRR signal (which is indoor-antenna strong due to being the only local OTA tower in the area).


That sounds like an interesting experiment; it's worth a try.


----------



## JHBrandt

I don't want to be *too* negative about combining antennas. It can work; it just takes a lot of trial and error (mostly error, usually). Here's Ken Nist's page on the topic: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html#TAT


----------



## SFischer1

JHBrandt said:


> I don't want to be *too* negative about combining antennas. It can work; it just takes a lot of trial and error (mostly error, usually). Here's Ken Nist's page on the topic: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html#TAT


We watch HDTV to learn and be entertained.

The path to getting our personal entertainment center set up is also a learning and entertaining experience, one we all do except perhaps Bill Gates. Has he ever plugged a cable into a HDTV?

I started playing with electronics ~ 1956 by building a transistor radio kit. It did not work so I took it to the local Radio / TV shop. They determined that a longer antenna was needed and connected a ~ 10 foot length of wire.

Some time later I purchased a Channel Master portable radio which did not master the channel when the boat I was in went down (Water was ~ 4 feet deep so no problem). It was returned DEAD from the repair shop three times, finally they gave me a new radio.

Extra credit question: How many ICs did the Electronical Engineering department at the University of Wisconsin have when I left ~ 1968?

SHF


----------



## rabbit73

SFischer1 said:


> Extra credit question: How many ICs did the Electronical Engineering department at the University of Wisconsin have when I left ~ 1968?
> 
> SHF


None


----------



## gbynum

rabbit73 said:


> None


I'll accept that, but in 1969 I was a sophomore at NCSU and co-op student ... we had been using RTL (Resistor-Transistor-Logic) ICs for at least several years at work. TTL required better construction practices to not be bothered by transients. Our boards were single-sided.

They were not microprocessors, but flip-flops, nixie and other 7 segment drivers existed.


----------



## SFischer1

rabbit73 said:


> None


Sorry, the correct answer was one (1).

The professor was so proud of his little board with switch and lights that demonstrated that it was a NAND gate.

------------

A couple of years later I got a free trip to San Francisco for me to see if I wanted to move to California. (I did)

At that time there were a row of electronic surplus stores along Market Street. I went into one and asked if they had any ICs. I was directed to a door that led downstairs where I saw a lot of almost drunk men taking parts off of TV chassis with cold chisels. I didn't ask.

SHF


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: Way back in 1965, San Diego State College (later SDSU University) only had Electrical Engineering BS/MS Programs without ANY Electronics Courses....OK if you wanted to work for the Power Company [or play with their ANALOG Computer], but otherwise NOT what I wanted. So I opted for BS Physics (Electronics) Degree....which provided in-depth info on the PHYSICS behind HOW to dose Semiconductors, as well as Circuit Design with the wide variety of Transistor (et.al.) + OpAmp Circuits, incl. FeedBack/FeedFwd Theory....and the PHYSICS of Magnetics, incl. how to design Magnetic Windings and how to design MagAmps. About the only thing the Physics Electronics course did NOT teach was how to design circuits using TUBES...concentrating instead on the PHYSICS of Magnetrons, Linear Accelerators, Particle Detectors, etc. Since I had learned about various Tube Circuit Designs ever since I was 9-yo (building Heathkit AR-3 All-Band Receiver...which I completely redesigned and rebuilt during College Winter Break), I already knew everything I needed to know about Tubes (may they RIP). The only hole in my EE Education was Digital Logic Design, which I had to pick up at a week-long Training Course in Motorola COSMOS (aka CMOS) Digital (and Analog) Circuit Design [which explained my Hybrid FSK Modem Design] and lots of self-learning and OJT.

About 1/2-way thru part-time MS Physics program at SDSU, based on the kind of WORK I was doing, I decided to change Majors and pursued an MS Degree at UCSD, which was just then formulating a Statistical Communications type MS Degree Program (the name of which was changed about every other year)....and in my "spare time" finished out the remaining Graduate Physics Courses.


----------



## DigitalGriffin

Well I purchased the RCA 751 and hooked up the 22dB RCA preamp to it. I then lined up the antenna using the Winegard android app (Pointed about 350 degrees). I receive about 6 more digital channels. 

Channel 8 went down a little in signal strength, but it still plenty strong. 
Fox 43/ PBS 33 (Physical channel 36) is still marginal and actually works better when the weather is poor. Go figure? Maybe it's a signal reflection issue?

Over all I'm pleased I have 6 more channels. Channel 36 is a bummer, so I'm going to see if a little more antenna tweaking will help. Maybe a bigger pre-amp.

Thanks for the help guys. I learned a bit.


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## jkeldo

DigitalGriffin said:


> Well I purchased the RCA 751 and hooked up the 22dB RCA preamp to it. I then lined up the antenna using the Winegard android app (Pointed about 350 degrees). I receive about 6 more digital channels.
> 
> Channel 8 went down a little in signal strength, but it still plenty strong.
> Fox 43/ PBS 33 (Physical channel 36) is still marginal and actually works better when the weather is poor. Go figure? Maybe it's a signal reflection issue?
> 
> Over all I'm pleased I have 6 more channels. Channel 36 is a bummer, so I'm going to see if a little more antenna tweaking will help. Maybe a bigger pre-amp.
> 
> Thanks for the help guys. I learned a bit.


When you say a bigger pre-amp, if you mean more powerful you might end up overloading your tuner or tv. I've used the RCA TVPRAMP1E(Z) if that's the one you have and it works pretty well. But I am currently using an older Radio Shack 15-321 which has an adjustable gain. It also has a boost switch which will overload any tuner I've tried it on if the gain is also at maximum. The RCA never overloaded any of my tuners or tv's so you do have to be careful as to how much gain you can feed your tuner.

Also, I have found that moving an antenna even a bit can make all the difference between getting a weak signal or not so I would start with the antenna tweaking first and see what happens.


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## rabbit73

jkeldo said:


> Also, I have found that moving an antenna even a bit can make all the difference between getting a weak signal or not so I would start with the antenna tweaking first and see what happens.


Good advice for DigitalGriffin. His antenna might not be in the best location for the reception of WITF (real channel 36), especially if there are trees or other buildings in the signal path.


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## rabbit73

DigitalGriffin said:


> Well I purchased the RCA 751 and hooked up the 22dB RCA preamp to it......I receive about 6 more digital channels.
> 
> Over all I'm pleased I have 6 more channels. Channel 36 is a bummer, so I'm going to see if a little more antenna tweaking will help. Maybe a bigger pre-amp.


Glad to hear that your reception has improved. A preamp with more gain might not help, but you are welcome to try it. A preamp with more gain is likely to be overloaded by your stronger signals; WITF is one of your weaker signals and your location is behind a hill for the WITF signal.



















Moving your antenna to a better location, as suggested by jkeldo above, or using an antenna with more gain might help.

WITF has applied for an increase in power, but I don't know the present status of the application.

https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?request=items&facid=73083


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## drhjean

drhjean said:


> Thanks. I'll definitely try the flatwave as I work through this. I appreciate the suggestions here.


So, now many months later, I've finally gotten the chance to work through this. The attic was definitely not going to work as a location, so I'm left with an outdoor solution. I carefully re-aimed the flatwave and am getting great signals on all the important channels. I bought a new Tablo DVR a couple of weeks ago and have only had one recording fail because the signal was weak during a storm.

I'm going to stick with this for now and see how things go over the summer with big rainstorms. It may just be the best I can get.

Thanks again for all the suggestions and tips.


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## richart

drhjean said:


> So, now many months later, I've finally gotten the chance to work through this. The attic was definitely not going to work as a location, so I'm left with an outdoor solution. I carefully re-aimed the flatwave and am getting great signals on all the important channels. I bought a new Tablo DVR a couple of weeks ago and have only had one recording fail because the signal was weak during a storm.
> 
> I'm going to stick with this for now and see how things go over the summer with big rainstorms. It may just be the best I can get.
> 
> Thanks again for all the suggestions and tips.


I don't think rain itself interferes with OTA TV reception like it does with DBS TV...different frequencies involved. But rain could affect foliage which has one of the most detrimental effects on UHF reception, not so much at VHF.


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## nathill

richart said:


> I don't think rain itself interferes with OTA TV reception like it does with DBS TV...different frequencies involved. But rain could affect foliage which has one of the most detrimental effects on UHF reception, not so much at VHF.



Storms clearly interferes with OTA signals in my setup, especially VHF stations. When I see a radar with red areas between my antenna and the towers fifty miles away, frequent pixelation and break ups occur.


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## drhjean

richart said:


> I don't think rain itself interferes with OTA TV reception like it does with DBS TV...different frequencies involved. But rain could affect foliage which has one of the most detrimental effects on UHF reception, not so much at VHF.





nathill said:


> Storms clearly interferes with OTA signals in my setup, especially VHF stations. When I see a radar with red areas between my antenna and the towers fifty miles away, frequent pixelation and break ups occur.


Being in south Florida, there's lots of foliage everywhere and all year 'round, so it's likely that storms move the foliage around a lot, and that interferes. Whatever the exact reason, I just know storms hurt the reception quality. I hope it won't be too bad when it gets stormy. FWIW, I don't have nearly as many problems as I did with satellite.


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## tustinfarm

*HDB91X antenna "fin" shape*

I sing the praises of my HDB91X antenna for pulling in the UHF stations in my deep fringe area. But I've always wondered whether the "wishbone" shape of the director fins has any actual impact, other than making it look "fancier" than a traditional UHF antenna with straight aluminum bars. Curious whether anyone has ever pondered this or _modeled _the impact of the director shape.

Also, with the upcoming channel re-pack (September in my area) I am crossing my fingers that reception on the re-located, _lower _UHF channels (and the lower antenna gain on those channels) won't hurt my lineup. Seems that to increase the gain for the lower channels I'd need to _enlarge _the directors...so best to hope that a new version of the HDB91X emerges, that ignores the >600 MHz frequencies.


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## lifespeed

tustinfarm said:


> Also, with the upcoming channel re-pack (September in my area) I am crossing my fingers that reception on the re-located, _lower _UHF channels (and the lower antenna gain on those channels) won't hurt my lineup. Seems that to increase the gain for the lower channels I'd need to _enlarge _the directors...so best to hope that a new version of the 91XG emerges, that ignores the >600 MHz frequencies.


For a repack antenna you need look no further than the XB16, which has very high gain and directivity for channel 37 and below. Across the pond they refer to "A" group as up to channel 37 and "B" group as up to channel 53. But look at the gain improvement (compared to "B" group XB16) you get when you buy an antenna optimized for the repack!


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## tustinfarm

lifespeed said:


> For a repack antenna you need look no further than the XB16, which has very high gain and directivity for channel 37 and below. Across the pond they refer to "A" group as up to channel 37 and "B" group as up to channel 53. But look at the gain improvement (compared to "B" group XB16) you get when you buy an antenna optimized for the repack!


Thanks for that link, sounds encouraging. Any idea how it might compare in gain to the HDB91X or 91XG antennas (I edited my original post to denote that what I currently have is the HDB91X antenna)?


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## lifespeed

tustinfarm said:


> Thanks for that link, sounds encouraging. Any idea how it might compare in gain to the HDB91X or 91XG antennas (I edited my original post to denote that what I currently have is the HDB91X antenna)?



Similar gain (click the link in my sig, I have a 91XG), but the match will be better as it is narrower band. This results in more power being delivered to the tuner.


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## Calaveras

lifespeed said:


> Similar gain (click the link in my sig, I have a 91XG), but the match will be better as it is narrower band. This results in more power being delivered to the tuner.


Where does it say that the HDB91X is narrower bandwidth than the XG91? That would imply it has higher gain on the lower channels. I have not seen this kind of detail about that antenna.

Chuck


----------



## rabbit73

tustinfarm said:


> I sing the praises of my HDB91X antenna for pulling in the UHF stations in my deep fringe area. But I've always wondered whether the "wishbone" shape of the director fins has any actual impact, other than making it look "fancier" than a traditional UHF antenna with straight aluminum bars. Curious whether anyone has ever pondered this or _modeled _the impact of the director shape.


Each "director" is actually a pair of directors at each location on the boom. Its shape is equivalent to a "fat" straight bar, to increase the bandwidth.

Directors pairs are used to match the double current peaks of the driven element that is longer than 1/2 wave.












> Seems that to increase the gain for the lower channels I'd need to _enlarge _the directors...so best to hope that a new version of the HDB91X emerges, that ignores the >600 MHz frequencies.


To rescale the antenna to a lower frequency, the directors would have to be larger, and the spacing between the elements would need to be increased. No US antenna company is going to do that unless they can recover the cost of the the redesign and make a profit.


----------



## rabbit73

lifespeed said the Group A XB16A aerial has a narrower bandwidth. It sacrifices bandwidth to increase gain.

https://www.aerialsandtv.com/atvstockaerialtests.html#Agroup

Group A aerials, 21 to 37 in the UK is approx equivalent to our 14 to 37.

https://www.aerialsandtv.com/onlineaerials.html#XB16s
XB16A Aerial Price: £62.00


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## rabbit73

tustinfarm said:


> Thanks for that link, sounds encouraging. Any idea how it might compare in gain to the HDB91X or 91XG antennas (I edited my original post to denote that what I currently have is the HDB91X antenna)?


Solid Signal has inflated the HDB91X gain for marketing purposes.










It is probably similar to the AD 91XG gain.










Qiaohua makes the HDB91X for Solid Signal. The gain they claim is more realistic:


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## mattdp

http://www.qiaohua.com/uploads/qiaohua.com/addon/OUTDOOR_DIRECTORY.pdf

Unfortunately nothing in Qiaohua's catalog looks like it's optimized for the 470-608MHz band.

(FWIW, they manufacture the antennas for SolidSignal, Newark.com and several other online resellers).


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## holl_ands

FYI: Fol. are DIY FF4 and FF6, Re-Optimized for the NEW UHF Band (470-608 MHz). Compared to Old UHF Band FF4, we see Gain of 0.7 dB on 470 MHz and 1.1 dB on 608 MHz. And Compared to OLD UHF Band FF6, we see 1.8 dB Gain increase on 608 MHz, but 0.2 dB Loss on 470 MHz with significant increase in Hi-VHF Band Gain:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl/newuhffreeform4bayscreenreflopt
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/newuhffreeform6bayvdaropt

For Re-Optimized FF6, I was disappointed to see a 0.2 dB Loss on 470 MHz.....if I increased the "importance" of the Lower Freqs in the Optimization, I might be able to change this.....something to think about as I continue exploring alternatives for a JOINTLY Optimized New UHF and Hi-VHF Band FF4 and FF6 with hopefully acceptable SWR in BOTH Bands.....

In fol. OLD UHF BAND Comparison Chart, note that FF4 and FF6 have a LOT more Gain than 91XG on the Lower Channels and do NOT suffer from the 0.5 to 1.5+ dB Combiner Loss experienced by the DB-8e (NOT included in Chart):


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## MeatChicken

.

 I couldn't resist !


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## holl_ands

FYI: I Analyzed alternatives for improving 91XG Gain on Lower Channels [at expense of High Freq Gain]....scroll on down, they're in order by Band (UHF) and Number of Elements [+ then Size of Corner Reflector]:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis


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## MAX HD

holl_ands said:


> FYI: Fol. are DIY FF4 and FF6, Re-Optimized for the NEW UHF Band (470-608 MHz). Compared to Old UHF Band FF4, we see Gain of 0.7 dB on 470 MHz and 1.1 dB on 608 MHz. And Compared to OLD UHF Band FF6, we see 1.8 dB Gain increase on 608 MHz, but 0.2 dB Loss on 470 MHz with significant increase in Hi-VHF Band Gain:
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl/newuhffreeform4bayscreenreflopt
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/newuhffreeform6bayvdaropt
> 
> For Re-Optimized FF6, I was disappointed to see a 0.2 dB Loss on 470 MHz.....if I increased the "importance" of the Lower Freqs in the Optimization, I might be able to change this.....something to think about as I continue exploring alternatives for a JOINTLY Optimized New UHF and Hi-VHF Band FF4 and FF6 with hopefully acceptable SWR in BOTH Bands.....
> 
> In fol. OLD UHF BAND Comparison Chart, note that FF4 and FF6 have a LOT more Gain than 91XG on the Lower Channels and do NOT suffer from the 0.5 to 1.5+ dB Combiner Loss experienced by the DB-8e (NOT included in Chart):



Thanks for posting that chart.One thing seems puzzling.I just put up a winegard 8200 and the chart shows a 5db gain improvement over the 91XG on the low end. I took down an HDB91X,which is similar and what I see is less performance with the 8200 on the lower channels.Maybe the balun is bad? how would I connect a regular balun to the rods? Or,maybe attach the balun leads where the rods are connected? I'd have to look it over to see if that's feasible.


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## MAX HD

holl_ands said:


> FYI: I Analyzed alternatives for improving 91XG Gain on Lower Channels [at expense of High Freq Gain]....scroll on down, they're in order by Band (UHF) and Number of Elements [+ then Size of Corner Reflector]:
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis


Interesting reading. Did I read that right,that you widened the director bays to almost 14"? The bays on my triax group A's are 10" wide and the 91XG type widebands are around 8" wide. The bays on the Group A's are stretched out on the outer end,making them 2ft longer than the XG types.


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## holl_ands

I analyzed three 91XG alternatives with Wider Directors...which ALSO required shortening the First Director (in front of Active Dipole) to restore acceptable SWR. I provided revised dimensions measured from Centerline to Max "Y-Coordinate", so double that to calculate new Director Width:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/uhf91xgwiderbowtiesbetterch1451

FYI: Original Director Max Y-Coord is 6.2-in, per measurements by Ken Nist on HIS 91XG (which may or may NOT exactly match YOUR 91XG):
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/91xg

a) Max Gain at 798 MHz (for 470-698 MHz Band): Ymax = 6.025-in

b) Max Gain at 626 MHz (for New 470-608 MHz Band): Ymax = 7.65-in

c) Max Gain at 798 MHz, "Spike" wire Alum. soldered on: L = 1.167 in

This was done way back in 2013, so I didn't try to re-optimize for Max Gain at 608 MHz...with hopefully a bit more Gain on 470 MHz....simple Rescale Calculation sez 7.88-in should be very close...but I would have to rerun model to determine tiny changer to length of First Director to re-optimize SWR....but would only be a tiny bit better than Option (b).


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## jd8000

Curious if any of the antenna gurus have any opinions on whether it would be possible to easily modify the UHF portion of the RCA ANT751 (the original one with the tetrapole) to optimize it for the repacked UHF band. I'm in Dallas, and with our repack date a bit over a month away, I will soon have no need for anything above 608 MHz, and could stand another dB or two of gain and a bit more directionality on the remaining channels. I understand that increasing the size of the directors would generally be used to increase the gain on lower frequencies, but I'm not sure if it would also require other changes that aren't simple, like changing the spacing or needing a larger tetrapole. I did a quick search through the forum but couldn't find any specifics on this.


----------



## rabbit73

jd8000 said:


> Curious if any of the antenna gurus have any opinions on whether it would be possible to easily modify the UHF portion of the RCA ANT751 (the original one with the tetrapole) to optimize it for the repacked UHF band.


 Hello, jd8000
It would be possible to modify the original RCA ANT751, but it would not be easily done.


> I understand that increasing the size of the directors would generally be used to increase the gain on lower frequencies, but I'm not sure if it would also require other changes that aren't simple, like changing the spacing or needing a larger tetrapole.


To scale down to a lower design frequency it would probably be necessary to make the directors longer, increase the spacing, and possibly increase the size of the tetrapole. How much you would need to change the dimensions and how much improvement you would realize would require computer modeling. Forum member holl_ands does modeling and he took some photos at CES2009 when it was introduced:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/ces2009;jsessionid=xal11i82w1.goose_s
images 14 and 15

I think it would be easier to switch to an antenna with a little more gain.


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## lifespeed

Unless you're a hobbyist or your time has little value the antenna make vs. buy decision comes down squarely on the side of "buy". If you really want/need the re-pack optimized Yagi order the XB16A and pay the overseas shipping if you're in the USA.


I don't see this mentioned or spec'd, but I would guess the antenna match is significantly improved with a re-pack band antenna, which is just as important and interacts with gain of the antenna/cable/receiver cascade.


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## rabbit73

jd8000 has not posted a TVFool report as requested in the sticky, so I am reluctant to recommend a specific antenna for his location. He might need some VHF gain.


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## jd8000

I do need VHF for ABC on 8, and may need 9 in the future if they ever do something useful with it instead of Sonlife and shopping channels. At my location, a dipole isn't quite enough to get 8 to the level of reliability I want, but the ANT751 handles it fine. I don't really need recommendations since I already know that a Winegard 7694 would be sufficient for this location, I'm just severely space-constrained and the 65" boom on it would be a bit much, plus I really don't want to spend $60 on another antenna that isn't optimized for a post-repack world. The idea was to find a cheap and easy way to lengthen the directors (foil?), but if it requires changing the spacing, then that's obviously not going to happen.


What I really need is for Antennas Direct to dust off the plans for the Element, chop off the first few elements that are no longer needed, and re-release it . 7-36, decent gain, compact size, reasonable price, sell a ton of them to people in the suburbs who are sick of fighting with crappy panel antennas but don't need something 6' long taking up space in the attic, or apartment dwellers who need something that can fit entirely within a balcony. The ANT751 is really the only thing I've found that fills that space and is better on VHF than the single dipole on the CM2016 or ClearStream 2V.


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## lifespeed

Here are two Stellar Labs VHF Yagi antennae, as well as a combo VHF/UHF. All are VHF Hi, however. VHF Lo are enormous.
30-2475 Fringe Directional Antenna VHF-Hi HDTV 174 - 230MHz
30-2476 Deep Fringe Directional Antenna VHF-Hi HDTV 174 - 230MHz
30-2485 Complete Outdoor 40 Mile HDTV Antenna Kit - UHF/VHF


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## JHBrandt

rabbit73 said:


> jd8000 has not posted a TVFool report as requested in the sticky, so I am reluctant to recommend a specific antenna for his location. He might need some VHF gain.


I can tell he's in the D/FW area like me. I realize that's nowhere near enough (it's a huge area) but it's a start at least: http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?mktid=5&sorting=physical


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## holl_ands

jd8000 said:


> Curious if any of the antenna gurus have any opinions on whether it would be possible to easily modify the UHF portion of the RCA ANT751 (the original one with the tetrapole) to optimize it for the repacked UHF band. I'm in Dallas, and with our repack date a bit over a month away, I will soon have no need for anything above 608 MHz, and could stand another dB or two of gain and a bit more directionality on the remaining channels. I understand that increasing the size of the directors would generally be used to increase the gain on lower frequencies, but I'm not sure if it would also require other changes that aren't simple, like changing the spacing or needing a larger tetrapole. I did a quick search through the forum but couldn't find any specifics on this.


 I did the 4nec2 model for the ANT751 and NEW UHF Band mods to much higher Gain FF4 and FF6...but even without doing any work, I can tell you that it would be a futile effort....UHF Gain is "only" 7 dBi to begin with and the best that modifications would provide is maybe a few tenths of dB improvement...which you would NEVER notice....


----------



## holl_ands

lifespeed said:


> Here are two Stellar Labs VHF Yagi antennae, as well as a combo VHF/UHF. All are VHF Hi, however. VHF Lo are enormous.
> 30-2475 Fringe Directional Antenna VHF-Hi HDTV 174 - 230MHz
> 30-2476 Deep Fringe Directional Antenna VHF-Hi HDTV 174 - 230MHz
> 30-2485 Complete Outdoor 40 Mile HDTV Antenna Kit - UHF/VHF


 Links don't work, they default to Newark Home Page....try searching for Stellar Labs Part Numbers...


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## lifespeed

holl_ands said:


> Links don't work, they default to Newark Home Page....try searching for Stellar Labs Part Numbers...



They work for me.


----------



## jd8000

lifespeed said:


> Here are two Stellar Labs VHF Yagi antennae, as well as a combo VHF/UHF. All are VHF Hi, however. VHF Lo are enormous.


 My extremely "learned this on the internet and making a SWAG" opinion of the 30-2485 is that it might be better than the ANT751 on higher frequencies, but probably drops off more at the lower frequencies since it would be more tuned to a single frequency without the parasitic element rabbit73's diagram highlights. And it would be significantly worse on VHF since it appears to be a single dipole with one reflector, vs. the log-yagi design of the ANT751.

Those high VHF antennas are very interesting though; I've been looking for something to replace the AntennaCraft and Winegard models since they were discontinued and had no idea that something else existed at a reasonable price. Way too much for my location, but I know some who could benefit. I don't suppose you have a line on a reasonably-priced replacement for the old Pico and Pico-clone UVSJs?


holl_ands said:


> I did the 4nec2 model for the ANT751 and NEW UHF Band mods to much higher Gain FF4 and FF6...but even without doing any work, I can tell you that it would be a futile effort....UHF Gain is "only" 7 dBi to begin with and the best that modifications would provide is maybe a few tenths of dB improvement...which you would NEVER notice....


OK, that's good to know. Do you think it would be worth trying to extend the boom and tack on a couple more directors? Or is it pretty much at the point of diminishing returns already?

And a bit more of a general antenna theory question here, but can anyone point to something that explains how the 1/4 wave stubs on the ANT751 work to knock out the UHF signals from the VHF elements? I like to think I understand antenna stuff better than the average Joe, but that part is just FM to me, especially how it gets rid of the UHF signal from the VHF elements, but apparently has no effect on the UHF signal from the UHF element. I understand enough to know that being 1/4 wavelength (for two different wavelengths) is important, but beyond that it's just .


----------



## rabbit73

jd8000 said:


> I don't suppose you have a line on a reasonably-priced replacement for the old Pico and Pico-clone UVSJs?


Radio Shack 15-2586/1502586
https://www.radioshack.com/products/radioshack-vhf-uhf-gold-plated-splitter-combiner


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## rabbit73

*Shorting Stubs Used as a UVSJ*



jd8000 said:


> And a bit more of a general antenna theory question here, but can anyone point to something that explains how the 1/4 wave stubs on the ANT751 work to knock out the UHF signals from the VHF elements? I like to think I understand antenna stuff better than the average Joe, but that part is just FM to me, especially how it gets rid of the UHF signal from the VHF elements, but apparently has no effect on the UHF signal from the UHF element. I understand enough to know that being 1/4 wavelength (for two different wavelengths) is important, but beyond that it's just .





















Winegard UHF Tetrapole Stub Function

from Winegard Patent US3,518,693 

The dipole 12 differs from the conventional folded dipole in that the upper dipole arms 12a are not continuous but split to form separate inboard ends. However, with the feeder stubs 20 mounted at the inboard ends of the upper dipole arms 12a as previously described, a low impedance, or R-F short, is presented across these ends at frequencies within the UHF frequency band. As a result, driven element 12 serves as a folded dipole in the conventional sense for this frequency range with signals being fed across the gap at the inboard ends of dipole arms 12a without any substantial effect. 

At frequencies below the UHF range, however, the R-F short between dipole arms 12a is no longer present and a high impedance (open circuit) is effected. With this result it will be understood that the antenna constructed in accordance with the present invention will operate effectively on frequencies within the UHF band and at the same time permit signals within the VHF band or other frequencies from a separate antenna structure to be coupled to the inboard ends of dipole arms 12a, and therethrough to the terminal connection points 12d to the down lead T. 

No adverse effect is encountered for either the signals in the VHF or UHF bands and signals in both bands are coupled to but one down line without an intervening coupling apparatus being required. 

End of Patent Description



















Shorting stubs are used in place of a UVSJ in a combo antenna for convenience and low cost. They are not quite as effective as a real UVSJ filter, because a stub is only a short for one frequency. Two pairs of wide stubs cover UHF fairly well.

The GE 34792 contains a real UVSJ filter:




























The GE 29884 is the outdoor version:



















Attachment 2 shows what happens to the UHF Polar Pattern if you do not use some kind of isolation network like a UVSJ or shorting stubs to remove the UHF signals received by the VHF section of a combo antenna.


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## jkeldo

Here is a review of a Winegard antenna which I read about in the Cleveland PD but here is the original article:

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/technology/2019/05/16/time-get-serious-tv-antenna


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## tylerSC

jkeldo said:


> Here is a review of a Winegard antenna which I read about in the Cleveland PD but here is the original article:
> 
> https://www.dallasnews.com/business/technology/2019/05/16/time-get-serious-tv-antenna


Good antenna with built in amp but plastic build quality may be a concern outdoors. Great for attic. Currently on sale Amazon for $119 with $17.90 discount coupon.


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## tylerSC

tylerSC said:


> Good antenna with built in amp but plastic build quality may be a concern outdoors. Great for attic. Currently on sale Amazon for $119 with $17.90 discount coupon.


Also Winegard Flatwave Air on sale Amazon for $67.98. Good outdoor flat panel antenna also perform very good with built in amp. But maybe not quite as good a Elite model for VHF because it lack VHF dipole.


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## tylerSC

But I still like Antop 400BV flat panel antenna with VHF dipole. Come with inline amp but excels if you add external preamp instead. Has indoor stand or can be used attic or outdoors.


----------



## holl_ands

Winegard Elite 7550 appears to be a 4-Bay Dipole Antenna (similar to W-G HD-4400)...PLUS a pair of (apparently Unconnected) UHF Resonator Rods at Top and Bottom....PLUS a Hi-VHF Dipole (likely 0 dBd = 2.2 dBi, give or take some Combining Loss????):
http://www.winegard.com/help/images/c/cd/2452393.pdf
http://www.winegard.com/elite

"We're the NEW Winegard....we no longer NEED to provide any Stinking SPECS!!!!" However, Azimuthal Pattern Chart indicates either 8-10 dBi OR 8-10 dBd = 10.2-12.2 dBi in UHF Band....they didn't stipulate, but I suspect it's the latter, higher numbers.

Clearly someone chose to use a "Pretty"....but WAY TOO SMALL Reflector System....which explains why HD-4400 4-Bay Dipole with 4 Reflector Rods has significantly higher Gain = 12.7 to 15.1 dBi:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibaydipoles/winegardhd4400

==============================================================
HDB-4X is a REAL 4-Bay Bowtie Antenna from Solid Signal at 1/3 the cost:
https://www.amazon.com/Xtreme-Signal-HDB4X-Bowtie-Antenna-x/dp/B00CX6QBIO
Also CM4221HD at 1/3 the cost:
https://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master-CM-4221-HDTV-Antenna/dp/B000FVTPX2
Or A-D DB-4e Re-Optimized for current 470-698 MHz Band:
https://www.amazon.com/Element-Bowtie-Indoor-Outdoor-Antenna/dp/B0074H3IU6

Plus your CHOICE of a VHF Antenna, such as:
https://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direct-VHF-1-VHF-Retrofit/dp/B00LHFRCMG [Universal VHF Dipole Kit incl VHF/UHF Combiner, $25 with Prime S/H]

Or, if you need more than a simple Dipole for Ch7-13, either of the fol. Hi-VHF Antennas:
https://www.amazon.com/30-2475-Fringe-Directional-Antenna-174-230MHz/dp/B014M0XXES
https://www.amazon.com/30-2476-Fringe-Directional-Antenna-174-230MHz/dp/B07R69QJ3Q
Where VHF/UHF Combiner is extra:
https://www.amazon.com/Masthead-Antenna-Combiner-Inputs-Combined/dp/B015ZSVDAW [DC PASS on UHF Port]


----------



## tylerSC

Unfortunately Winegard no longer makes their 4400 and 8800 UHF antennas. 4bay and 8bay versions. They were good antennas. But I guess they are now going for cosmetic and aesthetic appeal.


----------



## jspENC

I have had an 8800 since before the digital transition. It still works well. I am thinking of replacing it since the last time I checked it, it had some rust on it, and one of the whiskers seem to be loose. Birds keep landing on them. 


The 8800 has to be aimed very tightly on the station you want too. Turning it just an inch can mean no signal or a good signal for weaker stations. I have been very pleased with it over the years. I think it is much better than the 4400.


----------



## AntAltMike

jspENC said:


> I have...an 8800... and one of the whiskers seem to be loose. Birds keep landing on them.



I used to service the cut-to-channel VHF antennas on a highrise building where the elements kept breaking off. The manager told me that it was because of the birds and I thought, "Yeah, sure", but what I didn't realize until I saw it was that they'd have a dozen birds light on the elements, and when the wind would blow, they would act like sails and develop enough force to bend and eventually break off the elements.


----------



## Alanlee

AntAltMike said:


> I used to service the cut-to-channel VHF antennas on a highrise building where the elements kept breaking off. The manager told me that it was because of the birds and I thought, "Yeah, sure", but what I didn't realize until I saw it was that they'd have a dozen birds light on the elements, and when the wind would blow, they would act like sails and develop enough force to bend and eventually break off the elements.


I have a tv antenna hooked to six boxes in my house and a channel master (ota) dvr. Things are working good in that department. I am wondering about setting up a cellular antenna. I called ATT, and they told me to use wifi for cell calls in my house. They were not very helpful in giving information about cellular antennas. I see some antennas online that say they will manage 5g when it completely rolls out. I am not sure about what is needed besides the antenna.

Any thoughts?
Regards
Alanlee


----------



## Calaveras

Alanlee said:


> I am wondering about setting up a cellular antenna. I called ATT, and they told me to use wifi for cell calls in my house. They were not very helpful in giving information about cellular antennas. I see some antennas online that say they will manage 5g when it completely rolls out. I am not sure about what is needed besides the antenna.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> Regards
> Alanlee


Exactly what are you trying to do? You can't just plug an outside antenna into a cell phone. There is a such thing as a cell phone booster that can work quite well if set up properly.


----------



## Alanlee

Calaveras said:


> Exactly what are you trying to do? You can't just plug an outside antenna into a cell phone. There is a such thing as a cell phone booster that can work quite well if set up properly.


I saw this on Amazon. It looks interesting.

https://boltontechnical.com/bolton-technical-ultragain-26-directional-antenna/

The cellular signal in my house is weak. A couple of miles from my house I get a 5g lte signal on my iPhone XS. I started thinking "what about a cellular antenna" and whatever else goes with it. I have seen people using cellular antennas in remote areas when I am camping. Those antennas seem to work with varying degrees of effectiveness.

I saw that antenna on Amazon; that seems like a good start. However I am a bit stymied by the cell phone boosters I have looked at online. It seems too early to look for a 5g booster, but 4g might be cost effective. I would like not to spend $500 on a booster, especially when I know that 5g is coming. I was wondering if someone on this thread has experience with the antennas and the boosters, and might head me in the right direction.

The advice I got from ATT was to use the internet for cellular calling. Ok - that works, but I would like to experiment with OTA cellular at my house, and maybe end up putting something on my RV, car and/or boat. It's really just a bit of fun.


----------



## Calaveras

Alanlee said:


> I was wondering if someone on this thread has experience with the antennas and the boosters, and might head me in the right direction.



I had a cell phone booster (WeBoost) at my previous location and it worked great. That antenna is only an antenna. You still need the booster. The booster is a little tricky to get working right. The indoor and outdoor antennas need to be far enough apart and not pointing at each other so there's no interference. 

I wouldn't be buying anything in anticipation of 5G at this point. If you have poor cell coverage now I wouldn't expect 5G to be better... probably worse.

Attached is a picture of the pair of 850MHz yagis pointed at my best cell site 13 miles away. The 2nd picture is a 5' dish and LPDA feed pointed at a backup site.


----------



## mattdp

I've yet to install one, but I've done a decent amount of research on cell boosters. Like others have said, you want to ensure that the antennas are far enough apart so the system doesn't start "ringing."

I'd go with WeBoost or Wilson products - they both make products that cover most all of the band currently used for 4G/LTE. Directional yagis, pairs of directional yagis and proper aim are important. https://www.cellmapper.net/ can help you out, although a spectrum analyzer would also be invaluable.


----------



## Alanlee

Calaveras said:


> I had a cell phone booster (WeBoost) at my previous location and it worked great. That antenna is only an antenna. You still need the booster. The booster is a little tricky to get working right. The indoor and outdoor antennas need to be far enough apart and not pointing at each other so there's no interference.
> 
> I wouldn't be buying anything in anticipation of 5G at this point. If you have poor cell coverage now I wouldn't expect 5G to be better... probably worse.
> 
> Attached is a picture of the pair of 850MHz yagis pointed at my best cell site 13 miles away. The 2nd picture is a 5' dish and LPDA feed pointed at a backup site.


Ok - now I have some ideas. Thanks

mattdp - I will check out WeBoost and Wilson products. thanks


----------



## JHBrandt

Re 5G: Keep in mind it will operate at much higher frequencies and will thus require different (luckily smaller) antennas. Also keep in mind there will likely be more 5G cell sites than 4G cell towers, with each 5G site covering a smaller area. 5G transceivers may be placed on street lamps or something similar; the 5G frequencies are much more "line-of-sight" than 4G and less able to diffract around small obstacles.


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: Each Carrier has exclusive channels assigned within particular Frequency Bands used for 4G/LTE (voice & medium speed Data = 10 to 25 Mbps)....but some might not be supported in any given location....and some Bands might not be supported in older phones...and new Bands [with wider Bandwidths as well as higher 5G Data Rates] are expected to come on-line "soonish":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT&T_Mobility#Radio_frequency_summary

Note that Band Numbers correspond to different assignments within each Band. 700 MHz Band has longest Range, but usually lowest data rate due to narrower Bandwidth.

FYI: Thus far, prototype 5G [oftentimes it's not quite "real" 5G] are inner city micro/nano-cells for trial runs. In suburbs many microcells would need to be installed on [many/most/all???] lamp posts....IF that ever happens (5G via LEO SAT is coming....soonish).

So a 4G/LTE Booster is specific to a particular Carrier....and SOME support multiple Carriers, just in case you might want to change Carriers.

You should talk to local suppliers of Boosters [in addition to AT&T] to make SURE that a particular model will do what you WANT....and they will also know which way to point the outdoor antenna when they install it. For DIY/Amazon, it's risky, cuz you're on your own......

Just a few examples so you know what sort of AT&T Boosters are available...and one company's evaluations:
https://www.repeaterstore.com/pages/best-cell-phone-signal-boosters

https://www.amazon.com/Booster-Amplifier-Repeater-Phonelex-T-Mobile/dp/B07NWDDMDT [Only AT&T, 700 MHz in Bands 12/17]
https://www.amazon.com/Phone-Signal-Booster-Antenna-Office/dp/B07GZ8FN79 [Only AT&T + Verizon, 700 MHz in Bands 13 (Verizon), 12/17]
https://www.amazon.com/T-Mobile-Amplifier-Including-Directional-Omni-Directional/dp/B07RS26SRL [Only AT&T + T-Mobile, 700 MHz in Bands 12/17]

All Multiple Carriers, Multi-Band:
https://www.amazon.com/Cell-Phone-Signal-Booster-Truck/dp/B07RY4L3LW
https://www.amazon.com/SureCall-Fusion4Home-Signal-Booster-Carriers/dp/B01AWGY4TE
https://www.amazon.com/5-Band-Phone-Signal-Booster-Office/dp/B07NTZKCN3
https://www.amazon.com/weBoost-470410-Signal-Booster-Motorhome/dp/B01N705CF3
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BWFYWNN/ref=emc_b_5_t


----------



## Alanlee

Calaveras said:


> I had a cell phone booster (WeBoost) at my previous location and it worked great. That antenna is only an antenna. You still need the booster. The booster is a little tricky to get working right. The indoor and outdoor antennas need to be far enough apart and not pointing at each other so there's no interference.
> 
> I wouldn't be buying anything in anticipation of 5G at this point. If you have poor cell coverage now I wouldn't expect 5G to be better... probably worse.
> 
> Attached is a picture of the pair of 850MHz yagis pointed at my best cell site 13 miles away. The 2nd picture is a 5' dish and LPDA feed pointed at a backup site.


Pictured is a Directv dish which I did not take down when I stopped using their service. Two questions: can the dish be converted to a cell phone antenna? Can I Use the RG6 coaxial cable that is attached to it?


----------



## lifespeed

Alanlee said:


> Pictured is a Directv dish which I did not take down when I stopped using their service. Two questions: can the dish be converted to a cell phone antenna? Can I Use the RG6 coaxial cable that is attached to it?



LOL, no you can't use it for cellular.


----------



## Calaveras

Alanlee said:


> Pictured is a Directv dish which I did not take down when I stopped using their service. Two questions: can the dish be converted to a cell phone antenna? Can I Use the RG6 coaxial cable that is attached to it?



No. Even if you were to use a proper feed it is too small to provide much gain. A yagi is better.


----------



## JHBrandt

Alanlee said:


> Pictured is a Directv dish which I did not take down when I stopped using their service. Two questions: can the dish be converted to a cell phone antenna? Can I Use the RG6 coaxial cable that is attached to it?


I assume you mean, "can the dish be converted into a *reflector* for a cell phone antenna?"

A: Today's cell service frequencies are too low for such a small dish to do you any good. But once 5G becomes a thing, it might work as a reflector for a 5G antenna.

As for your second question, RG 6 cable works up to around 2 GHz, so it should work with most current cell service frequencies. But 5G will require something different.

So: use the cable now; save the dish for later.


----------



## Steve347

*Cary, NC - High House & Maynard - Get Rid of Rotor?*

I currently have an ancient Winegard 8200 on the roof and cheap (at the time) Chanel Master rotor. I have grown tired of having to twist the rotor for every different channel. It gets out of calibration easily and is balky in cold weather. I have been using a compromise fixed location but now that the repack is happening this is no longer working. Most of my desired stations are either ESE or WNW. 

I was considering a Clearstream 4Max but it is kind of spendy at $150+ for a 4 bay bowtie sans reflector and a single high VHF dipole. The nice thing about the 4max and this location is that it is bi-directional at the cost of gain, which it looks like I probably don't need.

The repack is removing 11 and adding 8 & 9 on high VHF. which may be an issue for the 4max and its reduced gain.

What are your thoughts? Any alternatives?


----------



## richart

Steve347 said:


> I currently have an ancient Winegard 8200 on the roof and cheap (at the time) Chanel Master rotor. I have grown tired of having to twist the rotor for every different channel. It gets out of calibration easily and is balky in cold weather. I have been using a compromise fixed location but now that the repack is happening this is no longer working. Most of my desired stations are either ESE or WNW.
> 
> I was considering a Clearstream 4Max but it is kind of spendy at $150+ for a 4 bay bowtie sans reflector and a single high VHF dipole. The nice thing about the 4max and this location is that it is bi-directional at the cost of gain, which it looks like I probably don't need.
> 
> The repack is removing 11 and adding 8 & 9 on high VHF. which may be an issue for the 4max and its reduced gain.
> 
> What are your thoughts? Any alternatives?


So, what are your 'must have' stations? What are your 'would like to have' stations?


----------



## holl_ands

Unfortunately, TVFool isn't being updated with latest info, i.e. strong WRAZ (PBS on Ch40) and WRDC (MYN on Ch28) are flat out MIA...and the UHF Channel Assignments for 6 UHF Stations have changed.

After determining your approx Street Address (to 0.1-mi accuracy of your TVFool Report), I ran fol. Current TVStudy Report:
https://www.rabbitears.info/search....&lon=-78.7831597&tvstudy=Y&dbtype=dBm&height=

Currently, [non-rotating] Hi-VHF Dipole Antenna pointed towards middle of 99-125 deg (rel True North), "should" receive WTVD (ABC on Ch11) and WAUG (??? on Ch8).

And in the "near" future [must complete Re-Pack Phase 9 by 1May2010], WNCN (CBS on Ch17) will move to Ch8 (towards 123-deg), WTVD (ABC on Ch11) will move to Ch9 (also 123-deg). And in the "opposite" directions, WTNC (Univision on Ch19) will move to Ch11 (330-deg) and WIRP (??? on Ch22) will move to Ch11 (280-deg)....although for the last, a simple Dipole may or may NOT be inadequate, depending on Man Made Noise Level, trees/terrain and other factors....

FYI: Post Re-Pack assignment changes are very extensive, but fortunately they all stay in the New Ch14-36 UHF Band, except for WNCN, WTNC and WIRP mentioned above, see fol:
https://www.rabbitears.info/search.....7831597&opkey=N&tvstudy=Y&dbtype=dBm&height=

Note that fol. stations will either shut down or sign Channel sharing agreements with other stations: WRTD (IND on Ch49), WRAY (REL on Ch25), WLXI (IND on Ch25) and WRAL (TeST) on Ch39. Also note that WAUG (??? on Ch8) moves to Lo-VHF Ch4...so fergitabout it unless you keep HD8200 permanently pointed towards 99-deg (more or less).

With an outdoor C4Max, you "should" be able to receive all UHF Stations [towards Networks at about 123-deg] with "Signal Margin" greater than 20 dB....and perhaps down to at least 10 dB. And it would be worth trying it without the reflector if you want stations in "opposite" directions, bearing in mind that there are still NULLS to the sides.

You didn't say how many receiver drops you need, so we can discuss PreAmp/DistroAmp alternatives....acknowledging that you have Very Strong FM Stations, whose 2nd Harmonics can interfere with Hi-VHF Channels:


----------



## old tv guy

Steve347 said:


> I currently have an ancient Winegard 8200 on the roof and cheap (at the time) Chanel Master rotor. I have grown tired of having to twist the rotor for every different channel. It gets out of calibration easily and is balky in cold weather. I have been using a compromise fixed location but now that the repack is happening this is no longer working. Most of my desired stations are either ESE or WNW.
> 
> I was considering a Clearstream 4Max but it is kind of spendy at $150+ for a 4 bay bowtie sans reflector and a single high VHF dipole. The nice thing about the 4max and this location is that it is bi-directional at the cost of gain, which it looks like I probably don't need.
> 
> The repack is removing 11 and adding 8 & 9 on high VHF. which may be an issue for the 4max and its reduced gain.
> 
> What are your thoughts? Any alternatives?


The 4 max is not a 4 bay bowtie it is a 4 bay loop antenna.

The "ultimate antenna" Danny Hodges sells on Ebay
would be a excellent choice for your location.
Simply install it without the reflector and it should give excellent results for only $85 bucks.


----------



## old tv guy

Scooper said:


> The only issue with that is FINDING a VHF only antenna now - I have one - bought a couple of years ago.


Newark electronics sells Stellar Labs Vhf 7-13 yagis.


----------



## old tv guy

cpcat said:


> Looks eerily similar to the CM 4228 to me which can be had for half the price. Either would be an upgrade from the Stealth (not very good on UHF).
> I can personally vouge for the 4228, a very good value. It has very similar gain specs (for what that's worth) to those claimed by the DB8.
> 
> Charles


Actually the 4228 is a superior design.
It doesn't suffer the added loss of coax jumpers,
an additional balun, and a combiner, it merely uses just one balun.


----------



## old tv guy

holl_ands said:


> Winegard Elite 7550 appears to be a 4-Bay Dipole Antenna (similar to W-G HD-4400)...PLUS a pair of (apparently Unconnected) UHF Resonator Rods at Top and Bottom....PLUS a Hi-VHF Dipole (likely 0 dBd = 2.2 dBi, give or take some Combining Loss????):
> http://www.winegard.com/help/images/c/cd/2452393.pdf
> http://www.winegard.com/elite
> 
> "We're the NEW Winegard....we no longer NEED to provide any Stinking SPECS!!!!" However, Azimuthal Pattern Chart indicates either 8-10 dBi OR 8-10 dBd = 10.2-12.2 dBi in UHF Band....they didn't stipulate, but I suspect it's the latter, higher numbers.
> 
> Clearly someone chose to use a "Pretty"....but WAY TOO SMALL Reflector System....which explains why HD-4400 4-Bay Dipole with 4 Reflector Rods has significantly higher Gain = 12.7 to 15.1 dBi:
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibaydipoles/winegardhd4400
> 
> ==============================================================
> HDB-4X is a REAL 4-Bay Bowtie Antenna from Solid Signal at 1/3 the cost:
> https://www.amazon.com/Xtreme-Signal-HDB4X-Bowtie-Antenna-x/dp/B00CX6QBIO
> Also CM4221HD at 1/3 the cost:
> https://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master-CM-4221-HDTV-Antenna/dp/B000FVTPX2
> Or A-D DB-4e Re-Optimized for current 470-698 MHz Band:
> https://www.amazon.com/Element-Bowtie-Indoor-Outdoor-Antenna/dp/B0074H3IU6
> 
> Plus your CHOICE of a VHF Antenna, such as:
> https://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direct-VHF-1-VHF-Retrofit/dp/B00LHFRCMG [Universal VHF Dipole Kit incl VHF/UHF Combiner, $25 with Prime S/H]
> 
> Or, if you need more than a simple Dipole for Ch7-13, either of the fol. Hi-VHF Antennas:
> https://www.amazon.com/30-2475-Fringe-Directional-Antenna-174-230MHz/dp/B014M0XXES
> https://www.amazon.com/30-2476-Fringe-Directional-Antenna-174-230MHz/dp/B07R69QJ3Q
> Where VHF/UHF Combiner is extra:
> https://www.amazon.com/Masthead-Antenna-Combiner-Inputs-Combined/dp/B015ZSVDAW [DC PASS on UHF Port]


After trying a DB4E, 4221, and a Stellar Labs 4 bay bowtie, i went back to my Winegard 4400.
......
The John Winegard phased fat dipole design produced a wider beamwidth while still providing greater or equal gain on my desired channels.
.....
If Winegard decided to bring a modern 14-36 version of the 4400 to market, they would dominate
the uhf antenna market.


----------



## old tv guy

ncsercs said:


> Considering how much of a hassle it is to get a VHF signal in some places and that it's much easier for UHF, why don't TV stations just get off VHF and move over to UHF? Just Curious.


UHF signals are line of sight only and cover poorly in hilly and mountainous terrain so vhf signals will always be used in those areas.
VHF also travels much further and is not effected by trees nearly as much as UHF frequencies.


----------



## old tv guy

holl_ands said:


> PCB Balun in modern [UHF ONLY] Antennas (such as CM4228HD, DB-8e, HDB-8X, 91XG, etc) will attenuate VHF Signals....so to receive Hi-VHF Channels, you would need to MODIFY Antenna, replacing PCB Balun Box with a conventional 300:75-ohm Transformer Balun. Even better, do ONE of the fol. HHH Mods at the same time to improve UHF + Hi-VHF Gain Curve and esp. Hi-VHF SWR:
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl/cm4228hdhhhtsrsyrod [Also Hi-VHF Gain Improvement]
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl/newcm4228hdwithhollandshorizharness [Just UHF Gain Improvement]
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl/cm4228hd [CM4228HD As Shipped]


The 4228 has 5 db gain over a dipole average on high vhf right out of the box (according to Channel Master specs)
So the balun doesn't appear to be doing a very good job of blocking vhf.
......
The biggest flaw in any aluminum 4 bay or 8 bay bowtie is running the phasing lines parallel and close to a grounded conductive boom.
.....
Using a non conductive boom as with the 4 bay bowtie Danny Hodges makes prevents the rf coupling and resulting signal loss to ground resulting in higher gain and less antenna pattern distortion.
.....
And it allows the phasing lines to function as vhf elements allowing for better vhf performance than aluminum versions.


----------



## old tv guy

DigitalGriffin said:


> Which would you pick?
> 
> My TVFool:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=90380db6808f9c
> 
> 
> I currently have an antenna similar to this one with the RCA Pre-amp:
> It barely pulls in 43.1 which is at the edge of the green zone. I'm not impressed with it's strength
> 
> https://store.antennasdirect.com/ClearStream-2MAX-Indoor-Outdoor-TV-Antenna.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm attached to a J Pole outside. So I'm looking to upgrade. I thought about rotating this one north, and getting a new antenna and pointing it west.
> 
> I think traditional Yagi is the way to go here. I was looking at these two:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GE Yagi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RCA mini Yagi
> 
> Or do you have a better recommendation?


Little antennas are cute but they are no substitute for a real antenna.
.....
I would be using 2 Winegard 7694s and a combiner.
....
And the DB8E is also custom made for areas like yours since you can aim each 4 bay toward the tower clusters.


----------



## old tv guy

eherberg said:


> Side Question: I've seen the warnings previously regarding combining antennas. In my situation, I've got only 3 receivable broadcasters (all High-VHF) - but 2 of them would be in completely opposite directions. I already know that a Stellar Labs 30-2475 will get the stations available ... just not at the same time (VHF 8 - 211 degrees - 67 miles; VHF 12 - 284 degrees - 8 miles; VHF 7 - 4 degrees - 43 miles).
> 
> My question is about the problems with combining. I was looking at the Antenna Direct DB8 -- where it's just 2 identical antennas going into a not-fancy combiner. I get these are UHF antennas and unusable for my situation - but what is it about combining those with a pretty basic built-in combiner that works (at least enough to sell them) - but doing it elsewhere likely won't work?
> 
> The whole multi-direction possibility of OTA is certainly a frustrating aspect. I get why I'm the only masochist in my area that is considering OTA. Everybody else just foregoes the hassle involved and finds a basic pay solution.


Spot on
There is actually no difference.
You merely need to use equal length jumpers.


----------



## old tv guy

holl_ands said:


> Winegard Elite 7550 appears to be a 4-Bay Dipole Antenna (similar to W-G HD-4400)...PLUS a pair of (apparently Unconnected) UHF Resonator Rods at Top and Bottom....PLUS a Hi-VHF Dipole (likely 0 dBd = 2.2 dBi, give or take some Combining Loss????):
> http://www.winegard.com/help/images/c/cd/2452393.pdf
> http://www.winegard.com/elite
> 
> "We're the NEW Winegard....we no longer NEED to provide any Stinking SPECS!!!!" However, Azimuthal Pattern Chart indicates either 8-10 dBi OR 8-10 dBd = 10.2-12.2 dBi in UHF Band....they didn't stipulate, but I suspect it's the latter, higher numbers.
> 
> Clearly someone chose to use a "Pretty"....but WAY TOO SMALL Reflector System....which explains why HD-4400 4-Bay Dipole with 4 Reflector Rods has significantly higher Gain = 12.7 to 15.1 dBi:
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibaydipoles/winegardhd4400
> 
> ==============================================================
> HDB-4X is a REAL 4-Bay Bowtie Antenna from Solid Signal at 1/3 the cost:
> https://www.amazon.com/Xtreme-Signal-HDB4X-Bowtie-Antenna-x/dp/B00CX6QBIO
> Also CM4221HD at 1/3 the cost:
> https://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master-CM-4221-HDTV-Antenna/dp/B000FVTPX2
> Or A-D DB-4e Re-Optimized for current 470-698 MHz Band:
> https://www.amazon.com/Element-Bowtie-Indoor-Outdoor-Antenna/dp/B0074H3IU6
> 
> Plus your CHOICE of a VHF Antenna, such as:
> https://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direct-VHF-1-VHF-Retrofit/dp/B00LHFRCMG [Universal VHF Dipole Kit incl VHF/UHF Combiner, $25 with Prime S/H]
> 
> Or, if you need more than a simple Dipole for Ch7-13, either of the fol. Hi-VHF Antennas:
> https://www.amazon.com/30-2475-Fringe-Directional-Antenna-174-230MHz/dp/B014M0XXES
> https://www.amazon.com/30-2476-Fringe-Directional-Antenna-174-230MHz/dp/B07R69QJ3Q
> Where VHF/UHF Combiner is extra:
> https://www.amazon.com/Masthead-Antenna-Combiner-Inputs-Combined/dp/B015ZSVDAW [DC PASS on UHF Port]


Dbi

Since Winegard has always used average Db gain over a dipole in their specs.

The 7550 is a 2 bay fat dipole phased array so actual gain over a dipole would likely be about
8Dbd average or 10.15Dbi


----------



## jspENC

old tv guy said:


> After trying a DB4E, 4221, and a Stellar Labs 4 bay bowtie, i went back to my Winegard 4400.
> ......
> The John Winegard phased fat dipole design produced a wider beamwidth while still providing greater or equal gain on my desired channels.
> .....
> If Winegard decided to bring a modern 14-36 version of the 4400 to market, they would dominate
> the uhf antenna market.





I agree. I really love my 8800 UHF. I have thought about separating it and using it as two 4400's pointing different directions. Right now I use a 2 bay UHF pointing the opposite way of the 8800


----------



## Larry Kenney

A rotor and my Winegard 8200U works great for me. I'm receiving a low power station transmitting on channel 2 from 57 miles away solid and several Sacramento/Stockton stations from the Walnut Grove transmitter site 62-65 miles away. I've been very pleased with the results I'm getting.


----------



## Steve347

old tv guy said:


> The 4 max is not a 4 bay bowtie it is a 4 bay loop antenna.


Correct. I think I remember seeing rabbit ears clip on loops that were shaped like bow ties hence the confusion. I guess the feed is different. Any advantage of one over the other configuration?



old tv guy said:


> The "ultimate antenna" Danny Hodges sells on Ebay would be a excellent choice for your location. Simply install it without the reflector and it should give excellent results for only $85 bucks.


Is that guy for real? The kit is only $55. My issue with this is that I have 8,9, and 11 on VHF. How much gain would this antenna have on VHF? Any thoughts?


----------



## Steve347

holl_ands said:


> Unfortunately, TVFool isn't being updated with latest info, i.e. strong WRAZ (PBS on Ch40) and WRDC (MYN on Ch28) are flat out MIA...and the UHF Channel Assignments for 6 UHF Stations have changed.


Thanks for your detailed reply!  Yea, I noticed but it was all I had at the time...



holl_ands said:


> After determining your approx Street Address (to 0.1-mi accuracy of your TVFool Report), I ran fol. Current TVStudy Report:


Here is a correct address Rabbit ears address report:
https://www.rabbitears.info/search....8.8093498&sorting=signal&dbtype=dBm&height=30



holl_ands said:


> Currently, [non-rotating] Hi-VHF Dipole Antenna pointed towards middle of 99-125 deg (rel True North), "should" receive WTVD (ABC on Ch11) and WAUG (??? on Ch8).
> 
> And in the "near" future [must complete Re-Pack Phase 9 by 1May2010], WNCN (CBS on Ch17) will move to Ch8 (towards 123-deg), WTVD (ABC on Ch11) will move to Ch9 (also 123-deg). And in the "opposite" directions, WTNC (Univision on Ch19) will move to Ch11 (330-deg) and WIRP (??? on Ch22) will move to Ch11 (280-deg)....although for the last, a simple Dipole may or may NOT be inadequate, depending on Man Made Noise Level, trees/terrain and other factors....
> 
> FYI: Post Re-Pack assignment changes are very extensive, but fortunately they all stay in the New Ch14-36 UHF Band, except for WNCN, WTNC and WIRP mentioned above
> 
> Note that fol. stations will either shut down or sign Channel sharing agreements with other stations: WRTD (IND on Ch49), WRAY (REL on Ch25), WLXI (IND on Ch25) and WRAL (TeST) on Ch39. Also note that WAUG (??? on Ch8) moves to Lo-VHF Ch4...so fergitabout it unless you keep HD8200 permanently pointed towards 99-deg (more or less).


Repack is going to be a mess! I don't know what WAUG is and don't currently get it. The pre-repack 8 is redundant Greensboro market which I don't care about either.



holl_ands said:


> With an outdoor C4Max, you "should" be able to receive all UHF Stations [towards Networks at about 123-deg] with "Signal Margin" greater than 20 dB....and perhaps down to at least 10 dB. And it would be worth trying it without the reflector if you want stations in "opposite" directions, bearing in mind that there are still NULLS to the sides.


Yes, I am aware of the nulls to the sides.



holl_ands said:


> You didn't say how many receiver drops you need, so we can discuss PreAmp/DistroAmp alternatives....acknowledging that you have Very Strong FM Stations, whose 2nd Harmonics can interfere with Hi-VHF Channels:


Currently only 1 drop of about 50-60 feet currently of RG-75. I don't know how much RG-75 is hurting me but am planning on upgrading to RG-6 and using the RG-75 as FM only. Not about to crawl around in the attic during the hot summer!


----------



## jspENC

Larry Kenney said:


> A rotor and my Winegard 8200U works great for me. I'm receiving a low power station transmitting on channel 2 from 57 miles away solid and several Sacramento/Stockton stations from the Walnut Grove transmitter site 62-65 miles away. I've been very pleased with the results I'm getting.



That's not bad at all. Last night my Winegard picked up WRDQ and WFTV in Orlando from eastern NC! This is the 3rd time I have scanned my TV and found stations down there. I can't imagine a better UHF antenna.


----------



## rabbit73

Steve347 said:


> Here is a correct address Rabbit ears address report:
> https://www.rabbitears.info/search....8.8093498&sorting=signal&dbtype=dBm&height=30


Thank you for the rabbitears.info report. I see a lot of trees that can block signals.

Based on that, this is your FM report which shows some very strong FM transmitters that might interfere with VHF reception:
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/36890a3c60/Radar-FM.png


> Currently only 1 drop of about 50-60 feet currently of RG-75. I don't know how much RG-75 is hurting me but am planning on upgrading to RG-6 and using the RG-75 as FM only. Not about to crawl around in the attic during the hot summer!


What is RG-75?


----------



## Steve347

rabbit73 said:


> Thank you for the rabbitears.info report. I see a lot of trees that can block signals.
> 
> Based on that, this is your FM report which shows some very strong FM transmitters that might interfere with VHF reception:
> http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/36890a3c60/Radar-FM.png


Yes, lots of trees! They make great shade and air conditioning in this current heat wave. Not so great for reception though... especially when the wind blows!



rabbit73 said:


> What is RG-75?


At least someone is paying attention! RG-59 is 75 ohms! My bad memory & dyslexia is showing up again!


----------



## holl_ands

Since you only have ONE Drop, I would recommend that you do NOT use a Preamp to avoid the obvious Overload Desensitization Issues and let us know how well it performs vs predictions.....

TYPO CORRECTION: In my earlier post, RePack Phase 9 is 14Mar - 1May2020. [NOT 2010!!!]

FYI: RG-59 [per the MIL-SPEC] has a bare copper-covered steel conductor, [hard plastic] polyethylene insulation and a [single] bare copper braid shield (95% coverage), such as Belden 8241:
https://catalog.belden.com/techdata/EN/8241_techdata.pdf

 Below Comparison Chart plots Loss for Belden 8241 (REAL RG-59, about 5 dB/50-ft at 698 MHz) vs various RG-6 offerings, also from Belden. As you can see, there is quite a wide variation among RG-6 cables, even from the SAME manufacturer. And just to keep us on our toes, MANY mfr of RG-59 Coax do NOT follow the very specific requirements in the MIL-SPEC, substituting Low Loss FOAM (which is subject to misalignment of the Center Conductor in bends, esp. when HOT) and possibly adding or substituting an overall Mylar Shield (100% coverage)....effectively becoming something closer to RG-6 in performance. You would have to check for a label on your "RG-59" cable and then look up the model number to determine exactly what YOU have.....you MIGHT be surprised.....

Fol.  General Cable RG-59 Catalog Page illustrates this point. Their presumably REAL RG-59 (with "Solid PE") has about 13.0 dB loss at 1000 MHz (vs 12.0 dB for Belden 8241)....while their "FOAM PE" can have as low as 8.8 dB Loss at 1000 MHz:
http://general-cable.dcatalog.com/v/Electronics/?page=154


----------



## tylerSC

jspENC said:


> That's not bad at all. Last night my Winegard picked up WRDQ and WFTV in Orlando from eastern NC! This is the 3rd time I have scanned my TV and found stations down there. I can't imagine a better UHF antenna.


I am glad I still have 2 good 8800 antennas lying in the garage. After the repack in September I may give it a try in place of my CM-4228HD, depending upon results. I am right on the edge for a few stations I want to receive. Looks like Winegard would still make the 8800 and 4400.


----------



## jspENC

tylerSC said:


> I am glad I still have 2 good 8800 antennas lying in the garage. After the repack in September I may give it a try in place of my CM-4228HD, depending upon results. I am right on the edge for a few stations I want to receive. Looks like Winegard would still make the 8800 and 4400.



The garage is no place for those. Get em up and running!  I think they are better than that new CM. Have you tried them both to see which is better by chance?


----------



## dundakitty

holl_ands said:


> Unfortunately, TVFool isn't being updated with latest info, i.e. strong WRAZ (PBS on Ch40) and WRDC (MYN on Ch28) are flat out MIA...and the UHF Channel Assignments for 6 UHF Stations have changed.
> 
> After determining your approx Street Address (to 0.1-mi accuracy of your TVFool Report), I ran fol. Current TVStudy Report:
> https://www.rabbitears.info/search....&lon=-78.7831597&tvstudy=Y&dbtype=dBm&height=
> 
> Currently, [non-rotating] Hi-VHF Dipole Antenna pointed towards middle of 99-125 deg (rel True North), "should" receive WTVD (ABC on Ch11) and WAUG (??? on Ch8).
> 
> And in the "near" future [must complete Re-Pack Phase 9 by 1May2010], WNCN (CBS on Ch17) will move to Ch8 (towards 123-deg), WTVD (ABC on Ch11) will move to Ch9 (also 123-deg). And in the "opposite" directions, WTNC (Univision on Ch19) will move to Ch11 (330-deg) and WIRP (??? on Ch22) will move to Ch11 (280-deg)....although for the last, a simple Dipole may or may NOT be inadequate, depending on Man Made Noise Level, trees/terrain and other factors....
> 
> FYI: Post Re-Pack assignment changes are very extensive, but fortunately they all stay in the New Ch14-36 UHF Band, except for WNCN, WTNC and WIRP mentioned above, see fol:
> https://www.rabbitears.info/search.....7831597&opkey=N&tvstudy=Y&dbtype=dBm&height=
> 
> Note that fol. stations will either shut down or sign Channel sharing agreements with other stations: WRTD (IND on Ch49), WRAY (REL on Ch25), WLXI (IND on Ch25) and WRAL (TeST) on Ch39. Also note that WAUG (??? on Ch8) moves to Lo-VHF Ch4...so fergitabout it unless you keep HD8200 permanently pointed towards 99-deg (more or less).
> 
> With an outdoor C4Max, you "should" be able to receive all UHF Stations [towards Networks at about 123-deg] with "Signal Margin" greater than 20 dB....and perhaps down to at least 10 dB. And it would be worth trying it without the reflector if you want stations in "opposite" directions, bearing in mind that there are still NULLS to the sides.
> 
> You didn't say how many receiver drops you need, so we can discuss PreAmp/DistroAmp alternatives....acknowledging that you have Very Strong FM Stations, whose 2nd Harmonics can interfere with Hi-VHF Channels:


I'm in a similar area to Steve347. I have a CM-4228HD in the attic combined with an hour-glass loop VHF antenna I built ( see http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/hivhfhourglassloop) I built the 7-reflector rod version. Both are in the attic, side-by-side, about three feet apart. I tried the antennas individually, combined with a uhf/vhf combiner, and combined with a standard combiner. I have identical 6-foot runs of RG-6 between the antennas and the combiner.
The best performance was a standard combiner, probably because the CM-4228HD has some gain in the Hi-VHF range.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=9038c2bd8d3569

I still get drop-outs on WTVD (physical channel 11). Over the last two years WRAL (physical 48) has gotten progressively worse. My best channel now is WNCN (physical 17). This will all change by September, when WRAL moves to physical 17 and WNCN moves to physical 8.

I'm seriously considering replacing my antennas. I don't think the ClearStream 5 will out-perform my hourglass, but has anyone tried 1byone's antennas (https://www.1byone.com/amplified-outdoor-digital-hdtv-antenna-85-miles-range.html) or Danny Hodges' "Ultimate Antenna" from Ebay?


----------



## Steve347

holl_ands said:


> Since you only have ONE Drop, I would recommend that you do NOT use a Preamp to avoid the obvious Overload Desensitization Issues and let us know how well it performs vs predictions.....
> 
> TYPO CORRECTION: In my earlier post, RePack Phase 9 is 14Mar - 1May2020. [NOT 2010!!!]
> 
> FYI: RG-59 [per the MIL-SPEC] has a bare copper-covered steel conductor, [hard plastic] polyethylene insulation and a [single] bare copper braid shield (95% coverage), such as Belden 8241:
> https://catalog.belden.com/techdata/EN/8241_techdata.pdf
> 
> Below Comparison Chart plots Loss for Belden 8241 (REAL RG-59, about 5 dB/50-ft at 698 MHz) vs various RG-6 offerings, also from Belden. As you can see, there is quite a wide variation among RG-6 cables, even from the SAME manufacturer. And just to keep us on our toes, MANY mfr of RG-59 Coax do NOT follow the very specific requirements in the MIL-SPEC, substituting Low Loss FOAM (which is subject to misalignment of the Center Conductor in bends, esp. when HOT) and possibly adding or substituting an overall Mylar Shield (100% coverage)....effectively becoming something closer to RG-6 in performance. You would have to check for a label on your "RG-59" cable and then look up the model number to determine exactly what YOU have.....you MIGHT be surprised.....
> 
> Fol.  General Cable RG-59 Catalog Page illustrates this point. Their presumably REAL RG-59 (with "Solid PE") has about 13.0 dB loss at 1000 MHz (vs 12.0 dB for Belden 8241)....while their "FOAM PE" can have as low as 8.8 dB Loss at 1000 MHz:
> http://general-cable.dcatalog.com/v/Electronics/?page=154


I did some checking... The current RG-59 is likely Belden 9275. The uipgrade cable which is sitting in my closet is JSC Wire & Cable type 3522 of which I could find no information on the web other than JSC redirects to seminolewire.com.


----------



## rabbit73

steve347 said:


> i did some checking... The current rg-59 is likely belden 9275. The uipgrade cable which is sitting in my closet is jsc wire & cable type 3522 of which i could find no information on the web other than jsc redirects to seminolewire.com.


3552?
https://www.parts-express.com/jsc-wire-rg-6-u-coaxial-cable-100-ft-made-in-usa--100-378

https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/100-378-parts-express-specifications-45168.pdf


http://www.randl.com/shop/catalog/p...ts_id=50581&osCsid=bea8co642die4l8nqta2uuisp0


Seminole pdf:

http://www.seminolewire.com/pdf/Wire Type - Coaxial 12.22.16.pdf


----------



## Steve347

rabbit73 said:


> 3552?


Nope... I checked my dyslexia AND the cable jacket several times and even under magnification. It is indeed marked 3522. I also found those 3552 references as well. I guess we need to find someone with an old JSC catalog.


----------



## rabbit73

I couldn't find an old JSC catalog, but I DID find *3522* mentioned on Oct 30, 2012:
http://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/coax-and-rotor-cable-general-carol-and-jsc.366534/


----------



## holl_ands

So JSC 3552 RG-6 is in the middle of the pack.....just slightly better than Belden 1152A in the above Comparison Chart.
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/100-378-parts-express-specifications-45168.pdf

And Belden 9275 "RG-59" performance seems same as Belden 1152A RG-6....thanks to the use of a low-loss FOAM Dielectric (NOT per MIL-SPEC):
https://catalog.belden.com/techdata/EN/9275_techdata.pdf

So if original "RG-59" is in good condition, no noticeable improvement expected.....


----------



## tylerSC

jspENC said:


> The garage is no place for those. Get em up and running!  I think they are better than that new CM. Have you tried them both to see which is better by chance?


I have not compared them side by side. But the Winegard worked well for me before. Come September I will definitely experiment with antennas and placement to maximize gain after the repack. It's just very hot in the attic right now. But in the living room I am having very good luck with an Antop 400BV and Winegard LNA200 preamp. But for a few fringe channels it requires a big antenna in the attic, and currently I have the 8bay Channel Master up there. I also have the original version 4228 lying around somewhere and I may try it again as well, although the new version seems to be performing well.


----------



## old tv guy

Larry Kenney said:


> A rotor and my Winegard 8200U works great for me. I'm receiving a low power station transmitting on channel 2 from 57 miles away solid and several Sacramento/Stockton stations from the Walnut Grove transmitter site 62-65 miles away. I've been very pleased with the results I'm getting.


That 8200 is the gold standard for deep fringe combo antennas for sure.


----------



## old tv guy

Steve347 said:


> Correct. I think I remember seeing rabbit ears clip on loops that were shaped like bow ties hence the confusion. I guess the feed is different. Any advantage of one over the other configuration?
> 
> 
> 
> Is that guy for real? The kit is only $55. My issue with this is that I have 8,9, and 11 on VHF. How much gain would this antenna have on VHF? Any thoughts?


From all i could gather his 4 bay is a Mclapp design so it should work quite well.
The big advantage of his design is the non conductive boom that eliminates any pattern distortion and rf coupling loss due to use of a grounded metallic boom.
I would guess that high vhf gain would be better than current commercial made 4 bays due to his use of longer whiskers and spacing.
And since the phasing lines are no longer obstructed by a metallic boom, they are free to reinforce vhf reception as well.
He has sold nearly 300 on Ebay and has had zero negative reviews so it looks like his latest version is "the real deal" as he says LOL

And regarding loops vs bowties, the bowties produce greater gain but less frequency bandwidth.
A DB4E for example without the reflectors has greater peak gain than the 4Max on UHF with a wider horizontal pattern.
The fat loops used in the clearstreams have the advantage of wider frequency bandwidth which results in better gain on the lowest UHF channels compared to a DB4E without reflectors.


----------



## old tv guy

jspENC said:


> I agree. I really love my 8800 UHF. I have thought about separating it and using it as two 4400's pointing different directions. Right now I use a 2 bay UHF pointing the opposite way of the 8800


The DB4E was the strongest built of the bunch
followed by the 4221 and the 4400 was the weakest of the group so i had to silicone the dipoles to keep large birds from moving them.


----------



## Vidop

*comparison*

When I had my house built, I had specified that Belden 1694 (RG 6) was to be used. But, instead, Belden 9116 (RG 6) was used. I found this out after the drywall had been installed--to late to change. From my research, it appears the two types are similar/close in specs. And, the 9116 works fine. But, technically, what is the opinion of which is the "better" quality coax--the 1694 or the 9116? Just curious.


----------



## old tv guy

Vidop said:


> When I had my house built, I had specified that Belden 1694 (RG 6) was to be used. But, instead, Belden 9116 (RG 6) was used. I found this out after the drywall had been installed--to late to change. From my research, it appears the two types are similar/close in specs. And, the 9116 works fine. But, technically, what is the opinion of which is the "better" quality coax--the 1694 or the 9116? Just curious.


The losses are identical at ota tv frequencies.
The only issue you may encounter is trying to use a mast mounted preamp at large distances due to voltage drop over the copper coated steel center conductor.
.....
Yes, technically the solid bare copper center conductor 1694 with 95% braid is "better" but only
if you need to power a preamp more than 50-75 feet away.
Also be sure to coat the center conductor ends with dielectric grease and seal connectors with coax seal to help reduce corrosion.


----------



## Vidop

old tv guy said:


> The losses are identical at ota tv frequencies.
> The only issue you may encounter is trying to use a mast mounted preamp at large distances due to voltage drop over the copper coated steel center conductor.
> .....
> Yes, technically the solid bare copper center conductor 1694 with 95% braid is "better" but only
> if you need to power a preamp more than 50-75 feet away.
> Also be sure to coat the center conductor ends with dielectric grease and seal connectors with coax seal to help reduce corrosion.


Thanks for the info. For my use, I have no need for a powered preamp. So, no loss there in using the 9116 version. I still wish the contractor had followed my spec to use the 1694 though. Where I worked, we used a LOT of 1694 and it always gave us good results. When my house was being constructed, I lived far away and couldn't visit the construction very often. If I could have been here when they put in the 9116, I would have stopped them and made them use the 1694. Oh, well. As they say, that's water under the bridge now. As I mentioned, the 9116 is performing adequately. So, I guess I can't complain.


----------



## Steve347

Steve347 said:


> I currently have an ancient Winegard 8200 on the roof and cheap (at the time) Chanel Master rotor. I have grown tired of having to twist the rotor for every different channel. It gets out of calibration easily and is balky in cold weather. I have been using a compromise fixed location but now that the repack is happening this is no longer working. Most of my desired stations are either ESE or WNW.
> 
> I was considering a Clearstream 4Max but it is kind of spendy at $150+ for a 4 bay bowtie sans reflector and a single high VHF dipole. The nice thing about the 4max and this location is that it is bi-directional at the cost of gain, which it looks like I probably don't need.
> 
> The repack is removing 11 and adding 8 & 9 on high VHF. which may be an issue for the 4max and its reduced gain.
> 
> What are your thoughts? Any alternatives?


Well, to continue the saga... I went and purchased a 4Max at Best by for $129 on sale. I installed it on the same mast as the 8200 but about 3 feet lower. It is aimed at 123 degrees magnetic which is the same as the 8200.

It seemed to do respectable on UHF but has dropout issues on VHF. The signal meter on VHF jumps around from 50-60% to 80-90% when the wind blows causing the dropouts. I didn't get a chance to test it out in any rain as it has been quite dry here lately.

So this one won't cut it due to the VHF performance. So it looks like I am going to be needing a multi-bay loop or bow tie antenna for UHF and then a real high VHF antenna for Ch 11 now and 8 & 9 after the repack.

So can anyone recommend good separate antennas for each of these two bands? Keep in mind that the UHF has to be open (no reflector) to allow pickup from both sides as PBS is opposite the other network transmitters.

Secondary question is where can I get a good UVSJ that is required to combine both antennas? It appears that these have all but gone extinct.

BTW, I took some photos of the innards of the 4Max if any of you are interested just let me know.


----------



## rabbit73

Steve347 said:


> I went and purchased a 4Max at Best by for $129 on sale.
> 
> It seemed to do respectable on UHF but has dropout issues on VHF. The signal meter on VHF jumps around from 50-60% to 80-90% when the wind blows causing the dropouts.


That is to be expected for a house surrounded by trees.


> So this one won't cut it due to the VHF performance. So it looks like I am going to be needing a multi-bay loop or bow tie antenna for UHF and then a real high VHF antenna for Ch 11 now and 8 & 9 after the repack.
> 
> So can anyone recommend good separate antennas for each of these two bands? Keep in mind that the UHF has to be open (no reflector) to allow pickup from both sides as PBS is opposite the other network transmitters.


Keep the 4MAX for now and add a Stellar Labs 30-2475 (or 2476).
https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2475/fringe-directional-antenna-vhf/dp/48Y8141


> Secondary question is where can I get a good UVSJ that is required to combine both antennas? It appears that these have all but gone extinct.


https://store.antennasdirect.com/UHF-VHF-Antenna-Combiners.html


> BTW, I took some photos of the innards of the 4Max if any of you are interested just let me know.


Yes, please

Your report for reference:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=9038e7b1b55e49

https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WRAL

Repack Plan:
https://www.rabbitears.info/repackc...state=&mktid=35&owner=&sort=&ph=&lss=&status=










Local FM transmitters might still be a problem for reception of VHF TV channels:

http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/36890a3c60/Radar-FM.png


----------



## Steve347

Here are the photos of the insides of the Clearstream 4Max... Not much to it. Also got their design patents for those interested.


----------



## rabbit73

Steve347 said:


> Here are the photos of the insides of the Clearstream 4Max... Not much to it. Also got their design patents for those interested.


 Thanks for the photos, Steve. I always want to see what is inside.


----------



## jspENC

That clearstream 4 is overpriced for the gain it offers... You would be better off with two of these... https://www.amazon.com/RCA-Compact-...or+tv+antenna&qid=1563194721&s=gateway&sr=8-3


pointing in each direction with a splitter in reverse to combine them IMO, since you are trying to receive WUNC and I assume WUVC, which back in the day used to be "Counterfource 40", WKFT an independent channel that aired a lot of good stuff. Now it has GetTV I believe which is a good channel.


----------



## Steve347

rabbit73 said:


> That is to be expected for a house surrounded by trees.
> Keep the 4MAX for now and add a Stellar Labs 30-2475 (or 2476).
> https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2475/fringe-directional-antenna-vhf/dp/48Y8141
> https://store.antennasdirect.com/UHF-VHF-Antenna-Combiners.html
> Yes, please
> 
> Your report for reference:
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=9038e7b1b55e49
> 
> https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WRAL
> 
> Repack Plan:
> https://www.rabbitears.info/repackc...state=&mktid=35&owner=&sort=&ph=&lss=&status=
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Local FM transmitters might still be a problem for reception of VHF TV channels:
> 
> http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/36890a3c60/Radar-FM.png


Thanks for the feedback. The 4Max is going back under the Best Buy 14 day return policy since it performs worse than what I already have.


----------



## rabbit73

Steve347 said:


> Thanks for the feedback. The 4Max is going back under the Best Buy 14 day return policy since it performs worse than what I already have.


 Worse on UHF, VHF, or both? Your present 8200 antenna isn't bi-directional, is it?
I'm confused; I thought you said the CS4MAX was OK for UHF.



> It seemed to do respectable on UHF but has dropout issues on VHF. The signal meter on VHF jumps around from 50-60% to 80-90% when the wind blows causing the dropouts. I didn't get a chance to test it out in any rain as it has been quite dry here lately.
> 
> So this one won't cut it due to the VHF performance. So it looks like I am going to be needing a multi-bay loop or bow tie antenna for UHF and then a real high VHF antenna for Ch 11 now and 8 & 9 after the repack.
> 
> So can anyone recommend good separate antennas for each of these two bands? Keep in mind that the UHF has to be open (no reflector) to allow pickup from both sides as PBS is opposite the other network transmitters.


What bi-directional UHF antenna are you planning to buy instead of the CS4MAX?


----------



## johnny antenna

Some pics of my Fracarro LP345 antenna. I like this style of compact UHF/HI VHF antenna with integrated balun. Seems good at low uhf. Was able to get a channel 14 my other antennas never picked up. About 45 3/4" long and 34" at the widest elements. Elements are pretty soft, an eagle landing on it would bend the long ones.


----------



## Steve347

rabbit73 said:


> Worse on UHF, VHF, or both? Your present antenna isn't bi-directional, is it?
> I'm confused; I thought you said the CS4MAX was OK for UHF.


It is OK for UHF but not as good as the current 8200 in a stationary position. The VHF is considerably worse. Therefore I don't see any reason to keep it.




rabbit73 said:


> What bi-directional UHF antenna are you planning to buy instead of the CS4MAX?


THAT is the $64,000 question! Others have suggested that instead of a single bi-directional UHF antenna to instead combine 2 separate antennas pointing different directions. One previous vote is for the RCA U/V Yagi.

Another option would be to use something like an Antennas Direct DB8E and point each half in a different direction for UHF. This would require a separate VHF antenna pointed at what should be Channels 8,9 (after repack) ,&11(before repack). I THINK these VHF channels will all be in the same antenna farm. Is there any way to confirm the transmitter locations after the repack? There seems to be some database issues with rabbit ears and TVfool is pretty useless for this area.


----------



## Steve347

johnny antenna said:


> Some pics of my Fracarro LP345 antenna. I like this style of compact UHF/HI VHF antenna with integrated balun. Seems good at low uhf. Was able to get a channel 14 my other antennas never picked up. About 45 3/4" long and 34" at the widest elements. Elements are pretty soft, an eagle landing on it would bend the long ones.


So what is that antenna? An LTE cell phone antenna?


----------



## johnny antenna

Steve347 said:


> johnny antenna said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some pics of my Fracarro LP345 antenna. I like this style of compact UHF/HI VHF antenna with integrated balun. Seems good at low uhf. Was able to get a channel 14 my other antennas never picked up. About 45 3/4" long and 34" at the widest elements. Elements are pretty soft, an eagle landing on it would bend the long ones. /forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
> 
> 
> 
> So what is that antenna? An LTE cell phone antenna?
Click to expand...

Regular OTA TV antenna. May have LTE filter? Not sure. I'm not recommending this antenna for you btw.


----------



## Larry Kenney

johnny antenna said:


> Some pics of my Fracarro LP345 antenna. I like this style of compact UHF/HI VHF antenna with integrated balun. Seems good at low uhf. Was able to get a channel 14 my other antennas never picked up. About 45 3/4" long and 34" at the widest elements. Elements are pretty soft, an eagle landing on it would bend the long ones.


I have an Ability LP-345F and it works well. It doesn't have the gain of my HD8200U, but does a good job for stations up to about 45 miles away.

Larry


----------



## johnny antenna

Larry Kenney said:


> johnny antenna said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some pics of my Fracarro LP345 antenna. I like this style of compact UHF/HI VHF antenna with integrated balun. Seems good at low uhf. Was able to get a channel 14 my other antennas never picked up. About 45 3/4" long and 34" at the widest elements. Elements are pretty soft, an eagle landing on it would bend the long ones. /forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
> 
> 
> 
> I have an Ability LP-345F and it works well. It doesn't have the gain of my HD8200U, but does a good job for stations up to about 45 miles away.
> 
> Larry
Click to expand...

That's been my experience too. I would never recommend it for 50+ miles. It's probably between a RCA ANT751 and a Winegard 7694. Cool antenna for mid range UHF and VHF.


----------



## Steve347

*Pros & Cons Of Combining Antennas For Directionality?*

By this I am referring to identical antennas which obviously cover the same frequency ranges. 

*Pros *-

1. can pickup stations from different directions.

*Cons -*

1. 3+dB loss per antenna due to the splitter/combiner? I am assuming using a regular splitter.

2. Phasing issues? I am assuming that this could be mitigated by using identical feed lines to the combiner?

3. Pattern effects? What does this do to the individual/combined pattern? I am assuming that this may work well at or near 180 degrees (opposite directions). At what smaller angle would this become more of a detrimental issue?

4. Is there or would there be an optimum vertical spacing depending on the horizontal angle between the antennas


----------



## old tv guy

Steve347 said:


> Well, to continue the saga... I went and purchased a 4Max at Best by for $129 on sale. I installed it on the same mast as the 8200 but about 3 feet lower. It is aimed at 123 degrees magnetic which is the same as the 8200.
> 
> It seemed to do respectable on UHF but has dropout issues on VHF. The signal meter on VHF jumps around from 50-60% to 80-90% when the wind blows causing the dropouts. I didn't get a chance to test it out in any rain as it has been quite dry here lately.
> 
> So this one won't cut it due to the VHF performance. So it looks like I am going to be needing a multi-bay loop or bow tie antenna for UHF and then a real high VHF antenna for Ch 11 now and 8 & 9 after the repack.
> 
> So can anyone recommend good separate antennas for each of these two bands? Keep in mind that the UHF has to be open (no reflector) to allow pickup from both sides as PBS is opposite the other network transmitters.
> 
> Secondary question is where can I get a good UVSJ that is required to combine both antennas? It appears that these have all but gone extinct.
> 
> BTW, I took some photos of the innards of the 4Max if any of you are interested just let me know.


If you only need high gain bidirectional UHF reception, the DB8E is custom made for that situation.
.....
For vhf only bidirectional 2 stellar labs vhf yagis on a combiner.
......
If you need bidirectional vhf and uhf then two Winegard 7694s on a combiner would be hard to beat.
.....


----------



## Steve347

johnny antenna said:


> Regular OTA TV antenna. May have LTE filter? Not sure.


I had never seen or heard of the manufacturer and saw the "LTE" stamped on the boom hence my question. I then found the manufacturer, a data sheet and a source:

https://www.summitsource.com/Fracar...-BLUE-ZONE-FREE-50-FT-of-RG6-Coax-P14185.aspx

Can't load the data sheet as it is too large. You'll have to ask Google! Looks like they have LOTS of antenna options. Don't know how many are available stateside though.



johnny antenna said:


> I'm not recommending this antenna for you btw.


Well... I am now considering a directional array and two of these might be candidates.


----------



## johnny antenna

Steve347 said:


> Well... I am now considering a directional array and two of these might be candidates.



Have you considered using 2 HDHomerun tuners? My solution would be a Winegard 7694 pointed to Raleigh and any UHF antenna of your choice pointed to Greensboro. Each antenna would feed into it's own HDHomerun tuner. More expensive this way but it's a cleaner install without combining antennas.


----------



## lifespeed

johnny antenna said:


> Have you considered using 2 HDHomerun tuners? My solution would be a Winegard 7694 pointed to Raleigh and any UHF antenna of your choice pointed to Greensboro. Each antenna would feed into it's own HDHomerun tuner. More expensive this way but it's a cleaner install without combining antennas.



This approach is routinely mentioned by myself and others but generally scares away those who have no idea how to configure a computer network, nor do they realize their smart TV likely can play the tuner streams directly without even involving a computer. Not to mention the bonus of playing TV on any other connected device in house like a tablet, phone or laptop.



Yes, I know, it isn't nearly as hard to do as it might sound. But as soon as you say the word "network" 80% of the population's eyes glaze over. Maybe we should say "wifi" instead, somehow seems to not be nearly as scary


----------



## johnny antenna

lifespeed said:


> This approach is routinely mentioned by myself and others but generally scares away those who have no idea how to configure a computer network, nor do they realize their smart TV likely can play the tuner streams directly without even involving a computer. Not to mention the bonus of playing TV on any other connected device in house like a tablet, phone or laptop.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I know, it isn't nearly as hard to do as it might sound. But as soon as you say the word "network" 80% of the population's eyes glaze over. Maybe we should say "wifi" instead, somehow seems to not be nearly as scary





A HDHomerun can even operate without an internet connection. All is needed is a router and a phone or tablet with a browser to run the initial scan. 

My neighbor was blown away when I was sitting on his couch and could watch TV on my phone from my antenna.


----------



## rabbit73

Steve347 said:


> I have been using a compromise fixed location but now that the repack is happening this is no longer working. Most of my desired stations are either ESE or WNW.


Most of your UHF channels are at about 114 deg, but the UHF you want from the WNW is WUNC moving from 25 to 20 at 286 deg; is that correct? 
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WUNC


> The repack is removing 11 and adding 8 & 9 on high VHF. which may be an issue for the 4max and its reduced gain.


Callsigns, please. Is that WTVD ABC at 116 deg moving from 11 to 9 during Repack Phase 9? And is that WNCN CBS at 114 deg moving from 17 to 8 during Repack Phase 5?

https://www.rabbitears.info/repackc...state=&mktid=35&owner=&sort=&ph=&lss=&status=



Steve347 said:


> I THINK these VHF channels will all be in the same antenna farm. Is there any way to confirm the transmitter locations after the repack? There seems to be some database issues with rabbit ears and TVfool is pretty useless for this area.


It looks like they will be staying at their same transmitter sites in Garner NC:

https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?request=items&facid=8617

https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?request=items&facid=50782


----------



## RxDiesel

*Antenna recommendations, Atlanta zip 30268*

Atlanta area, zip 30268, sw of Atlanta. TV Fool image attached. Moving from a nearby location where an attic-mounted Clearstream 4, with the VHF add-on, with juice amplifier, did well on the UHF channels 30 miles away [WSB, WAGA, WXIA, WAGA], but was a bit inconsistent on the VHF Hi public tv channel [WGTV]. On the TVFool chart, I'm looking to capture channels down to WGTV [8.1] and maybe Ted Turner's old WTBS. I'm looking to do better, preferably with an attic mount, though a roof mount aimed to the NE is a possibility. Given this array of channels, any suggestions?


----------



## johnny antenna

RxDiesel said:


> Atlanta area, zip 30268, sw of Atlanta. TV Fool image attached. Moving from a nearby location where an attic-mounted Clearstream 4, with the VHF add-on, with juice amplifier, did well on the UHF channels 30 miles away [WSB, WAGA, WXIA, WAGA], but was a bit inconsistent on the VHF Hi public tv channel [WGTV]. On the TVFool chart, I'm looking to capture channels down to WGTV [8.1] and maybe Ted Turner's old WTBS. I'm looking to do better, preferably with an attic mount, though a roof mount aimed to the NE is a possibility. Given this array of channels, any suggestions?



You could either add a separate VHF-HI antenna or choose another combo antenna. Newark has 2 models of affordable VHF-HI specific antennas, 30-2475 and 30-2476, the latter being larger. You can join the VHF-HI antenna with UHF antenna of your choice with a joiner like a Radio Shack 15-2586. If you want a combo antenna, a Winegard 7694 would be a step up from what you have. Separate antennas would give the best chance for getting WGTV.


----------



## richart

RxDiesel said:


> Atlanta area, zip 30268, sw of Atlanta. TV Fool image attached. Moving from a nearby location where an attic-mounted Clearstream 4, with the VHF add-on, with juice amplifier, did well on the UHF channels 30 miles away [WSB, WAGA, WXIA, WAGA], but was a bit inconsistent on the VHF Hi public tv channel [WGTV]. On the TVFool chart, I'm looking to capture channels down to WGTV [8.1] and maybe Ted Turner's old WTBS. I'm looking to do better, preferably with an attic mount, though a roof mount aimed to the NE is a possibility. Given this array of channels, any suggestions?


Which station do you mean by Ted Turner's old WTBS? The old WTBS once owned by Turner is now WPCH-TV. The WTBS-LD is a low power broadcaster carrying Estrella, BizTV, Jewelry TV and France 24 and is not the same station once owned by Turner. 

I agree with johnny antenna, if you're going after WGTV on VHF, then a separate high gain VHF antenna such as the STELLAR LABS 30-2476 combined with a UHF antenna would be the way to go. Stellar Labs has the 33-2230 UHF/VHF combiner that is available from Newark. You are getting into some pretty weak 2 edge signals with WGTV. 

Which UHF antenna you need would be a matter of exactly which UHF stations you want to receive. Some of those weaker ones between WUVG and WGTV may or may not have programming you are interested in. If you can get all the UHF stations you want with the ClearStream 4, then just combine the VHF antenna with it.


----------



## RxDiesel

richart said:


> Which station do you mean by Ted Turner's old WTBS? The old WTBS once owned by Turner is now WPCH-TV. The WTBS-LD is a low power broadcaster carrying Estrella, BizTV, Jewelry TV and France 24 and is not the same station once owned by Turner.
> 
> I agree with johnny antenna, if you're going after WGTV on VHF, then a separate high gain VHF antenna such as the STELLAR LABS 30-2476 combined with a UHF antenna would be the way to go. Stellar Labs has the 33-2230 UHF/VHF combiner that is available from Newark. You are getting into some pretty weak 2 edge signals with WGTV.
> 
> Which UHF antenna you need would be a matter of exactly which UHF stations you want to receive. Some of those weaker ones between WUVG and WGTV may or may not have programming you are interested in. If you can get all the UHF stations you want with the ClearStream 4, then just combine the VHF antenna with it.


Thanks guys, good tips. I'm leaving the old Clearstream 4 with its VHF add-on, and preamp, for the tenants, so I'm starting fresh with this new place. And Richart, you are correct, I had not drilled down on what that TBS was [hot garbage, no thanks!]. I'll check out the Newark and Stellar options, including joiners/combiners to combine input from separate VHF/UHF antennae to feed the expected 3 HDTVs in the new place. 

My bigger problem is getting reasonably priced internet to the house, on a backroad with only pre-fiber AT&T/SoBell landline phone lines to the house [no cable]. I'm having to look at the Hughes/Echostar and ViaSat options, expensive for sufficient monthly GBs [and MBPS download speed] to feed our Netflix/Amazon Prime HD video, websurfing, and email habits, The previous owners had DirectTV via a satellite dish and slow internet via the at&t landline ......


----------



## rabbit73

Steve347 said:


> *Pros & Cons Of Combining Antennas For Directionality?*
> 
> By this I am referring to identical antennas which obviously cover the same frequency ranges.


OK


> *Pros *-
> 
> 1. can pickup stations from different directions.


True


> *Cons -*
> 
> 1. 3+dB loss per antenna due to the splitter/combiner? I am assuming using a regular splitter.


Not exactly true. When a 2-way splitter is used as a splitter, each output port is down 3 dB because the signal has been cut in half. To that, you must add the internal loss of the splitter, which is about 0.5 dB, which is why each output port is often marked 3.5 dB (loss).

When a splitter is used as a combiner, you are not dividing the signals in half you are combining, so you don't have the 3 dB loss. You do still have the internal loss of 0.5dB. However, since you have the same signals coming from each antenna in various strengths and phase relationships, they can help or hinder in ways that are impossible to predict giving gains or losses.



> 2. Phasing issues? I am assuming that this could be mitigated by using identical feed lines to the combiner?


Identical length feed lines are required when you have identical antennas aimed in the SAME direction for additional gain. However, when the antennas are aimed in DIFFERENT directions, the feed line lengths are irrelevant because some signals will already be out of phase. That is why you must try that method of combining to see if it will work for you, which it often doesn't.

If you don't have all the signals when combined that you had when the antennas were separate, that method of combining doesn't work for your location.



> 3. Pattern effects? What does this do to the individual/combined pattern? I am assuming that this may work well at or near 180 degrees (opposite directions). At what smaller angle would this become more of a detrimental issue?


Difficult to predict. According to ADTech, who works for Antennas Direct, the DB8e has the best chance of working when the panels are at right angles (90 deg apart), if not aimed in the same direction.


> 4. Is there or would there be an optimum vertical spacing depending on the horizontal angle between the antennas


Probably, but the only way you are going to find it is by the empirical method (trial and error).

If I had your problem, I would aim the 8200 at 115 deg for UHF and VHF. I would add a UHF antenna aimed at 286 deg for WUNC PBS and connect it to a separate tuner (converter box), with the output of the tuner connected to the aux input of the TV.


----------



## Steve347

rabbit73 said:


> Most of your UHF channels are at about 114 deg, but the UHF you want from the WNW is WUNC moving from 25 to 20 at 286 deg; is that correct?


Correct.



rabbit73 said:


> Callsigns, please. Is that WTVD ABC at 116 deg moving from 11 to 9 during Repack Phase 9? And is that WNCN CBS at 114 deg moving from 17 to 8 during Repack Phase 5


Correct x2!



rabbit73 said:


> It looks like they will be staying at their same transmitter sites in Garner NC:
> 
> https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?request=items&facid=8617
> 
> https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?request=items&facid=50782


Good to know. It means that I may just need a single VHF antenna pointed at Garner. I wouldn't think that there would be anything unique in the Greensboro market that I would want.


----------



## richart

RxDiesel said:


> My bigger problem is getting reasonably priced internet to the house, on a backroad with only pre-fiber AT&T/SoBell landline phone lines to the house [no cable]. I'm having to look at the Hughes/Echostar and ViaSat options, expensive for sufficient monthly GBs [and MBPS download speed] to feed our Netflix/Amazon Prime HD video, websurfing, and email habits, The previous owners had DirectTV via a satellite dish and slow internet via the at&t landline ......


It can't hurt to see what kind of speed you might get out of AT&T. I have their 20 Mbps service over 40 year old copper phone lines and we can stream two services at one time without any problems. Of course it all depends on just how far you are away from their equipment. A friend of mine who had satellite internet had terrible problems with latency...so much so that he uses an unlimited 4G LTE cellular account for his internet now.


----------



## Steve347

rabbit73 said:


> Difficult to predict. According to ADTech, who works for Antennas Direct, the DB8e has the best chance of working when the panels are at right angles (90 deg apart), if not aimed in the same direction. Probably, but the only way you are going to find it is by the empirical method (trial and error).


Well, this seems counter intuitive that 90 degrees would be optimum. Here is the AD description of the dB-8E

"This multi-directional antenna features patented elements and specially designed brackets which allow the two panels to turn in different directions to target widely-spaced broadcast towers. The reflector focuses the antenna's power for added range and also provides protection against multi-path interference..."

Nowhere does it list limitations (or recommendations for that matter) on the angle between each antenna.


----------



## rabbit73

Steve347 said:


> Well, this seems counter intuitive that 90 degrees would be optimum. Here is the AD description of the dB-8E
> 
> "This multi-directional antenna features patented elements and specially designed brackets which allow the two panels to turn in different directions to target widely-spaced broadcast towers. The reflector focuses the antenna's power for added range and also provides protection against multi-path interference..."
> 
> Nowhere does it list limitations (or recommendations for that matter) on the angle between each antenna.


Of course it doesn't list the limitations; that description is from the marketing department. Their job is to write copy that sells antennas.

What I wrote is from ADTech who works for Antennas Direct, gives accurate advice about reception problems on three forums, and has extensive experience working with the antennas sold by Antennas Direct. I would trust the opinion given by an engineering type person over a marketing person any day; it's a matter of integrity.










I have seen the same problem with Channel Master. The equipment descriptions written by the engineers of the original Channel Master company could be trusted; the descriptions written by the present Channel Master company are not accurate and can't be trusted. For example:

https://www.channelmaster.com/Digital_HDTV_Outdoor_TV_Antenna_p/cm-4228hd.htm


> The EXTREMEtenna (CM-4228HD) is an 8-Bay, phased array, multi-directional outdoor antenna that receives high definition and digital signals *from a span of 180 degrees*.


Really? Well, maybe if they are strong enough. But that is nothing like the standard definition of beamwidth defined as the angle between the half-power points at 3 dB down.


> Reception Pattern: Multi-directional


On the contrary, it is VERY directional; even more directional than the 4221HD. Does this look like 180 degrees?










Looks like about 30 degrees to me.

Solid Signal is a little more realistic:
https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=4228-hd


> .....we find it picks up signal best within a 60° directional cone (out of 360°)


 The problems that you can have with the two 4-bay panels that can be set at different angles as in the DB8e, are no different than what you will have with two separate 4-bay antennas aimed in different directions. Sometimes it works; sometimes, not.

http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php?p=35684&postcount=7



ADTech said:


> The DB8e is pretty much as just described. Customers have been asking us for years to include the flexibility of independent aiming of the panels so we tossed the feature in there. When the antenna gets up in the air and the panels are aimed independently, either it will work or it won't. For those customers for whom it works, everyone's happy. If it doesn't then it will be necessary to fall back to the conventional practices of rotors, A-B switches, and the like. There's nothing magical or otherwise about the combiner - it's a very good two port splitter that is about as efficient as we could produce. If it's been treated with pixie dust or otherwise has "special" characteristics that eliminate signal phasing issues, I didn't get told about that. The coaxial cable's length has been optimized for this application.


https://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php?p=51114&postcount=18



ADTech said:


> .....FWIW, it's unlikely that anyone has more hands-on experience with the DB8e than I do since I personally did all the field trials and tests during its development and product launch.
> 
> This is correct. *The two-panel project usually works best when 1) the two panels are nearly 90° from each other (each has a null in the other's aiming direction)*, 2) you can withstand the combiner loss from the combiner (which is no longer combining the signals from each panel in phase), and 3) there aren't any odd-balll reflections of a desired signal that comes in via the "wrong" panel which can cause signal cancellation. That's why I said " Don't be surprised if it doesn't work out exactly as envisioned " above. Too many variables.


----------



## RxDiesel

richart said:


> It can't hurt to see what kind of speed you might get out of AT&T. I have their 20 Mbps service over 40 year old copper phone lines and we can stream two services at one time without any problems. Of course it all depends on just how far you are away from their equipment. A friend of mine who had satellite internet had terrible problems with latency...so much so that he uses an unlimited 4G LTE cellular account for his internet now.


Responding to 17694 - Thanks, Richart. I'll have to assess the AT&T land line performance when we get in the house. Inspecting, I got decent performance through their existing wi-fi set up, for email, minor web searches, etc. The test will be video on demand for when we seek HD video via Netflix, etc. ...


----------



## SFischer1

rabbit73 said:


> ...
> On the contrary, it is VERY directional; even more directional than the 4221HD. Does this look like 180 degrees?
> 
> ...



I got very lucky, one little lobe near 90 degrees on the CM4228HD allows me to pick up some stations that are not on the main Sutro site. My antenna installer commented on that which I had discovered before. One station at about 45 degrees could not be received, now banished.

Those two little lobes might be the source of the ~ 180 degree. 

SHF


----------



## holl_ands

Among the fol. alternatives, DB-4e would have the highest Gain when used with reflector. If remove rear reflector [i.e.Bi-Directional], it has slightly higher Gain than CS 4MAX on most Channels.

A-D DB-4e has about 11.7 to 14.4 dBi UHF Gain [about 3 dB less if remove rear screen] and 2.7 to 3.2 dBi Gain in Hi-VHF Band if add VHF Antenna Kit:
www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/DB4E-TDS.pdf 

A-D C2-V has about 9.5 to 10.0+ dBi UHF Gain [about 3 dB less if remove rear screen] and 2.7 to 3.2 dBi Gain in Hi-VHF Band:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/hivhfuhftaperedloopc2v

A-D CS 4MAX has about 9 dBi UHF Gain [Bi-Directional] and 2.5 dBi Gain in Hi-VHF Band. Note that it is always shown WITHOUT a rear screen, but fol. website (erroneously) claims 12 dBi UHF Gain....this is apparently for the Original C4 WITH reflector...w/o Gain would be about 9 dBi:
https://store.antennasdirect.com/ClearStream-4MAX-Outdoor-TV-Antenna.html
Original C4 Data Sheet, with reflector: 
https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss.../2016-2018-PDF-QuickStart-Guides/C4MVJ_QS.pdf

RCA ANT-751 has about 7 dBi Gain in Hi-VHF Band (per my 4nec2 model) and 6-8 dBi in UHF (same as Lo-VHF/UHF W-G HD-7000 from which it was derived):
https://manuals.solidsignal.com/HD7000R.pdf

FYI: Stellar Labs 302475 has about 8.7 to 10.8 dBi Gain in Hi-VHF Band (Only):
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/hivhf9elfdyagistellarlabs

Spec sheet for Fracarro LP345 Hi-VHF/UHF LPDA says it has about 5.5 to 8.5 dBi in Hi-VHF Band [a LOT more than other alternatives] and 10-11 dBi [a LOT less than other alternatives] in UHF Band...available from Summit Source:
https://www.summitsource.com/Fracar...MIyq707a294wIVkRx9Ch16egUsEAQYBCABEgJcuPD_BwE


----------



## Steve347

rabbit73 said:


> Of course it doesn't list the limitations; that description is from the marketing department. Their job is to write copy that sells antennas.
> 
> What I wrote is from ADTech who works for Antennas Direct, gives accurate advice about reception problems on three forums, and has extensive experience working with the antennas sold by Antennas Direct. I would trust the opinion given by an engineering type person over a marketing person any day; it's a matter of integrity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen the same problem with Channel Master. The equipment descriptions written by the engineers of the original Channel Master company could be trusted; the descriptions written by the present Channel Master company are not accurate and can't be trusted. For example:
> 
> https://www.channelmaster.com/Digital_HDTV_Outdoor_TV_Antenna_p/cm-4228hd.htm
> Really? Well, maybe if they are strong enough. But that is nothing like the standard definition of beamwidth defined as the angle between the half-power points at 3 dB down.
> On the contrary, it is VERY directional; even more directional than the 4221HD. Does this look like 180 degrees?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like about 30 degrees to me.
> 
> Solid Signal is a little more realistic:
> https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=4228-hd
> The problems that you can have with the two 4-bay panels that can be set at different angles as in the DB8e, are no different than what you will have with two separate 4-bay antennas aimed in different directions. Sometimes it works; sometimes, not.
> 
> http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php?p=35684&postcount=7
> 
> https://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php?p=51114&postcount=18


I am very familiar with "marketing speak" but without direct access to people like ADtech what is a consumer to do? I know... hang out in this forum!

I would like to hear his thoughts about the dual antenna 180 degree arrangement vs. just a single x-bay bowtie array without a rear reflector. At least that gets rid of the phasing/cancellation issues.

I also now understand the reference to 90 degrees being optimum due to the mutual null in each antennas pattern.


----------



## old tv guy

Steve347 said:


> I am very familiar with "marketing speak" but without direct access to people like ADtech what is a consumer to do? I know... hang out in this forum!
> 
> I would like to hear his thoughts about the dual antenna 180 degree arrangement vs. just a single x-bay bowtie array without a rear reflector. At least that gets rid of the phasing/cancellation issues.
> 
> I also now understand the reference to 90 degrees being optimum due to the mutual null in each antennas pattern.



Used as 4 bays aimed in opposing directions i would expect it to have about 3.5 Db less gain than with all 8 bays in the same orientation without reflectors.


----------



## Steve347

holl_ands said:


> A-D DB-4e has about 11.7 to 14.4 dBi UHF Gain [about 3 dB less if remove rear screen] and 2.7 to 3.2 dBi Gain in Hi-VHF Band if add VHF Antenna Kit:
> www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/DB4E-TDS.pdf


So removing the rear reflector on a bow tie is good for a 3dB hit in gain. Seems like this might be the path of least resistance... so to speak! Seems like it might be a good way to get a 180 degree bidirectional antenna. With phasing issues and combiner losses you may do better with this than back-to-back antennas.

BTW, I didn't see the VHF high antenna kit in the DB4E -TDS. Is it still available or listed somewhere else?


----------



## holl_ands

A-D VHF Antenna Kit:
https://store.antennasdirect.com/VHF-Antenna-Kit.html
https://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direct-VHF-1-VHF-Retrofit/dp/B00LHFRCMG


----------



## rabbit73

holl_ands said:


> A-D VHF Antenna Kit:
> https://store.antennasdirect.com/VHF-Antenna-Kit.html
> https://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direct-VHF-1-VHF-Retrofit/dp/B00LHFRCMG


If Steve347 didn't like the VHF dipole on the CS4MAX, he probably will not be happy with the VHF Dipole kit.


Steve347 said:


> It (CS4MAX) is OK for UHF but not as good as the current 8200 in a stationary position. The VHF is considerably worse. Therefore I don't see any reason to keep it.


His house is surrounded by TREES.


----------



## Larry Kenney

There is a new series of videos on YouTube that have been uploaded by the "Antenna Man". I've looked at what he offers and he does a really good job of explaining OTA TV and how to receive good reception. Most of his videos are 4 to 8 minutes long. He's based in eastern Pennsylvania, but what he says works anywhere, and he does a good job of explaining his subjects. 

The subjects he covers are:
Ten Ways to Improve OTA TV Reception
Attic TV Antenna vs Outdoor TV Antenna
Top Three Outdoor TV Antennas
Best TV Antenna Signal Amplifiers
How To Combine Two TV Antennas
How to Ground an Outdoor TV Antenna
Get More OTA TV Channels with a Better Tuner
Connect a TV Antenna to Multiple Sets
VHF and UHF TV Antennas Explained
Recent OTA TV Reception Issues From FCC Repack
How Trees Affect OTA TV Signals
ClearStream 2MAX Indoor/Outdoor TV Antenna
Mohu Supreme Pro Antenna
Onn 150 Mile Outdoor TV Antenna Setup and Reception
Dell Computers Owner Takes TV Stations Off The Air
and more

His videos are available at this address: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=antenna+man

I highly recommend the Antenna Man videos for those having OTA reception problems or who want to find out more about OTA TV.

Larry


----------



## tylerSC

Larry Kenney said:


> There is a new series of videos on YouTube that have been uploaded by the "Antenna Man". I've looked at what he offers and he does a really good job of explaining OTA TV and how to receive good reception. Most of his videos are 4 to 8 minutes long. He's based in eastern Pennsylvania, but what he says works anywhere, and he does a good job of explaining his subjects.
> 
> The subjects he covers are:
> Ten Ways to Improve OTA TV Reception
> Attic TV Antenna vs Outdoor TV Antenna
> Top Three Outdoor TV Antennas
> Best TV Antenna Signal Amplifiers
> How To Combine Two TV Antennas
> How to Ground an Outdoor TV Antenna
> Get More OTA TV Channels with a Better Tuner
> Connect a TV Antenna to Multiple Sets
> VHF and UHF TV Antennas Explained
> Recent OTA TV Reception Issues From FCC Repack
> How Trees Affect OTA TV Signals
> ClearStream 2MAX Indoor/Outdoor TV Antenna
> Mohu Supreme Pro Antenna
> Onn 150 Mile Outdoor TV Antenna Setup and Reception
> Dell Computers Owner Takes TV Stations Off The Air
> and more
> 
> His videos are available at this address: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=antenna+man
> 
> I highly recommend the Antenna Man videos for those having OTA reception problems or who want to find out more about OTA TV.
> 
> Larry


Yes his videos are very informative and helpful. And his name is also Tyler and he even resembles my younger self. But he does antenna work in markets east of Philadelphia.


----------



## Tschmidt

I just stumbled on the Antenna Man Youtube channel. Agree with the other posters here that by and large he provides good advice and seems to more interested in raising awareness of OTA then pushing his business, but I'm sure being on Youtube doesn't hurt. If you are not a DIYer and at least somewhat technically savvy OTA can be daunting, especially during the repack.

/tom


----------



## pnkflyd51

https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=2212

I live about 25 from the Boston DMA towers in Needham, MA. We just had one of our "repack shuffles" overnight. Our PBS station (WGBH) is now transmitting their HD channels on a low VHF channel- 5. They have a UHF channel too where they transmit multiple other channels including SD versions of their main channels.

I would really like to get the HD version of the channels. I am not able to get it on my HDHomeRun.

I have a Channel Master ULTRAtenna 60 that I bought about 10 years ago and have it in my attic.

https://www.channelmaster.com/Digital_HDTV_Outdoor_TV_Antenna_p/cm-4221hd.htm

My antenna also has VHF rods, but apparently for high VHF only. The tech specs on mine says:

Bandwidth	174 to 216 and 470 to 700 MHz.

According to:

https://otadtv.com/frequency/index.html

VHF Channels 2-6 are: 54 - 88 MHz

Is there some sort of a low VHF only antenna that I could use with a "Combiner" like this?

https://store.antennasdirect.com/antenna-combiner.html

Or should I buy a brand new antenna?

This is just nuts that after a decade+ of antennas being sold that don't do low VHF, the FCC begins to have stations utilize the frequencies for TV again. Really maddening.


----------



## rabbit73

pnkflyd51 said:


> Or should I buy a brand new antenna?
> 
> This is just nuts that after a decade+ of antennas being sold that don't do low VHF, the FCC begins to have stations utilize the frequencies for TV again. Really maddening.


 The Repack by the FCC is causing problems for many viewers.

The description by Channel Master for the 4221HD stretches the truth; it is primarily a UHF antenna but is able to receive strong VHF-High channels.

It is possible for you to add an antenna for VHF-Low and combine it with your 4221HD using a combiner called a HLSJ.

Please post your TVFool report or rabbitears.info report as required in the sticky for antenna questions, so that we can give you more accurate advice.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...all-ota-threads-rabbitears-info-1st-post.html

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

https://rabbitears.info/searchmap.php

I find it useful to see both when I make an analysis.

This is a generic report for Hopkinton which probably is out of date but still useful:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=903802fdcb38b2

This rabbitears.info report is for Hopkinton 01748:
https://rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=2211


----------



## johnny antenna

pnkflyd51 said:


> Is there some sort of a low VHF only antenna that I could use with a "Combiner" like this?
> 
> https://store.antennasdirect.com/antenna-combiner.html
> 
> Or should I buy a brand new antenna?
> 
> This is just nuts that after a decade+ of antennas being sold that don't do low VHF, the FCC begins to have stations utilize the frequencies for TV again. Really maddening.



Channel 5 needs about 80" long antenna. I would try to find old style rabbit ears that can extend to about 40" each side (80" total) and see how hard it is to pickup. That can give an idea of how much effort you need to put into this. https://www.amazon.com/Magnavox-MAN...navox+vhf&qid=1564760297&s=electronics&sr=1-1


----------



## pnkflyd51

https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=2212

Thanks for the offer of help!

It appears that I'm only 15 miles from the towers. The website isn't up to date with last night's repack yet- both WGBH HD and WGBX HD signals are now on RF Channel 5 according to people posting this morning on the Boston OTA thread on avsforum.


----------



## rabbit73

pnkflyd51 said:


> https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=2212
> 
> Thanks for the offer of help!
> 
> It appears that I'm only 15 miles from the towers. The website isn't up to date with last night's repack yet- both WGBH HD and WGBX HD signals are now on RF Channel 5 according to people posting this morning on the Boston OTA thread on avsforum.


Thank you for the rabbitears.info report. It does show them now on real channel 5.

I suggest you try the suggestion by *johnny antenna* to use a simple dipole for channel 5 connected directly to the TV. If it works, you can combine it with your 4221HD using a HLSJ (VHF High-VHF Low-Separator-Joiner). They are getting hard to find, but a few are still available. The UVSJ UHF-VHF combiner from Antennas Direct is not the correct device for your problem.

Channel 5 is 76 to 82 MHz, center frequency 79 MHz.
Half wave dipole is 5540/79 = 70 inches; 35 on each side

You can also make a folded dipole out of 300 ohm twin lead:


----------



## pnkflyd51

The rabbit ears have the two wires coming off, not screw f-type.

My god, do I have to use one of these damn things for the first time in over two decades?

https://www.amazon.com/RCA-VH54R-Ma...=1564766305&s=electronics&sr=1-49-spons&psc=1

This is really going backwards!


----------



## pnkflyd51

Actually, it's this I would need, right?

https://www.amazon.com/RCA-VH58-Mat...M6C9K0MFM6X&psc=1&refRID=R5AC8TKY7M6C9K0MFM6X

Crazy- "back to the future"!

So none of the mud flap type antennas will do VHF channel 5 right- if 70 inches of antenna is required? I take it the rabbit ears can be extended fully, that each side doesn't have to be extended exactly 35 inches? "Back in the day" I never had to raise/lower the ears.

My current house is the only one where I have lived where I can get OTA reception- been here 7 years, in my mid 40s- without going to an outdoor antenna. It is a nice perk.


----------



## rabbit73

Yes, you will have to use the 300 ohm to 75 ohm balun matching transformer on that set of rabbit ears or a folded dipole. Some rabbit ears come with the 75 ohm coax attached; look for them. You will still need to extend each side to 35 inches with an alligator clip and wire. The rods and wires should be horizontal.

The cellular industry wanted UHF TV frequencies, congress told the FCC to make it happen. So, we ARE going back to old times with more VHF Low channels being used. The problem is not only that the antennas need to be much longer, but also the noise level is much higher on VHF-Low. In the old days with analog TV, you saw white specks in the picture. With digital TV, a high noise level from electrical interference can make it impossible to receive VHF-Low channels, because the signal must be at least 15 dB stronger than the noise level at your location.


----------



## rabbit73

pnkflyd51 said:


> Actually, it's this I would need, right?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/RCA-VH58-Mat...M6C9K0MFM6X&psc=1&refRID=R5AC8TKY7M6C9K0MFM6X


If you use that balun, you will also need an F-81 adapter to connect your coax to the balun.












> Crazy- "back to the future"!


When the FCC took away UHF channels 38 to 51, some TV transmitters had to move down to VHF.



> So none of the mud flap type antennas will do VHF channel 5 right- if 70 inches of antenna is required? I take it the rabbit ears can be extended fully, that each side doesn't have to be extended exactly 35 inches? "Back in the day" I never had to raise/lower the ears.


None of the mud flap antennas will do it. The antenna must be 70 inches long; 35 on each side. The lower frequencies need longer antennas to be efficient. It's like organ pipes; the low notes need long pipes.

I made a folded dipole for channel 3 using insulated 14 gauge solid copper building wire from Home Depot and yardsticks.




























The folded dipole is probably more efficient than the rabbitears extended.


----------



## johnny antenna

rabbit73 said:


> If you use that balun, you will also need an f-81 adapter to connect your coax to the balun.
> 
> 
> When the FCC took away UHF channels 38 to 51, the TV transmitters had to move down to VHF.
> 
> None of the mud flap antennas will do it. The antenna must be 70 inches long; 35 on each side. The lower frequencies need longer antennas to be efficient. It's like organ pipes; the low notes need long pipes.



He could just use the more common barrel style of balun and solder the leads to the twin lead, right? 

I looked on eBay for a pair of high quality rabbitears that go out to 50" a side but couldn't find anything.


----------



## pnkflyd51

Thanks both of you for your help. By a wire and alligator clips- am I using the wire and clips to connect the two sides of the rabbit ears to each other? If so, isn't that done in the plastic housing? I suspect I do not understand what to do with the wire and clips.

Also- curious- in the NTSC days, to get channel 5, we didn't have to make the two sides of the rabbit ears straight off each other so that it's basically a flat rod, correct? Why is that needed now? Again, I may not be understanding that instruction either...

Thanks again- and for your patience!


----------



## pnkflyd51

Just saw the edited post above with the pictures. I'll read that over!


----------



## Trip in VA

pnkflyd51 said:


> The website isn't up to date with last night's repack yet- both WGBH HD and WGBX HD signals are now on RF Channel 5 according to people posting this morning on the Boston OTA thread on avsforum.



As an FYI, I'll be shuffling the programming in the listings to reflect the changes later this evening. Just keeping up with the RF channel changes which have been going on today is enough effort for the time being.


- Trip


----------



## holl_ands

pnkflyd51 said:


> I have a Channel Master ULTRAtenna 60 that I bought about 10 years ago and have it in my attic.
> https://www.channelmaster.com/Digital_HDTV_Outdoor_TV_Antenna_p/cm-4221hd.htm
> My antenna also has VHF rods, but apparently for high VHF only. The tech specs on mine says:
> Bandwidth 174 to 216 and 470 to 700 MHz.
> 
> Is there some sort of a low VHF only antenna that I could use with a "Combiner" like this?
> https://store.antennasdirect.com/antenna-combiner.html
> 
> 
> Or should I buy a brand new antenna?
> This is just nuts that after a decade+ of antennas being sold that don't do low VHF, the FCC begins to have stations utilize the frequencies for TV again. Really maddening.


 Per 4nec2 Model, C-M UltrAntenna 60 [aka CM4221HD] has significant Bi-Directional Gain on Ch11 to Ch13, but on lower Channels the Forward Gain is MUCH LESS [Gain is actually Higher towards the REAR]...and of course the SWR is excessive, which MAY or MAY NOT be a problem....HOWEVER, since it (like most other modern Antennas) uses a PCB (Printed Circuit Board) Balun designed ONLY for UHF Band, there will be ADDITIONAL Loss and SWR mismatches for VHF Band....which C-M specs do NOT address:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl/uhfnewcm4221hd
PS: Those "Rods" form a Reflector for the UHF Band.

I summarized various DIY Lo-VHF (Only) Antennas as well as a Hi-VHF + Lo-VHF DIY Antenna here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/381623-official-avs-antenna-related-hardware-topic-581.html#post56934904

There are All-Band Antennas such as the wimpy W-G HD-7000 [not much better than a Lo-VHF Folded Dipole....can be combined with Hi-VHF/UHF Antenna(s)], HUGE W-G HD-8200, and C-M Advantage/Masterpiece Series:
https://manuals.solidsignal.com/HD7000R.pdf
https://manuals.solidsignal.com/HD8200U_Specs.pdf
http://downloads.channelmaster.com/CM+Product+Catalog+2017.pdf


----------



## pnkflyd51

Trip in VA- I didn't realize *you* are Rabbit Ears. Thanks for your service!

holl_ands - thanks for your post. As I'm not very knowledgeable in antenna science, not much makes sense to me, but it is very interesting. You seem to have the same link for the DIY Lo-VHF (Only) Antennas as well as a Hi-VHF + Lo-VHF DIY Antenna as for the Channel Master 4221. Any chance you meant to include a different link?

I've ordered the HLSJ combiner, rabbit ears and balun. Will arrive in 1-2 weeks. I'll post how it goes. Thanks much for the help from all of you!


----------



## rabbit73

pnkflyd51 said:


> Thanks both of you for your help. By a wire and alligator clips- am I using the wire and clips to connect the two sides of the rabbit ears to each other? If so, isn't that done in the plastic housing? I suspect I do not understand what to do with the wire and clips.


It's like this:












> Also- curious- in the NTSC days, to get channel 5, we didn't have to make the two sides of the rabbit ears straight off each other so that it's basically a flat rod, correct? Why is that needed now? Again, I may not be understanding that instruction either...


The angle of the rods should be adjusted for the best reception for analog or digital TV, but since TV signals have polarization that is mostly horizontal, start with the rods horizontal first.

But I prefer the folded dipole for VHF Low.


----------



## Bill C.

I'm about 11 miles due south of most of Austin's broadcast towers (I'm wondering if this is post-local repack, since I could have sworn a couple of additional stations were off to the northwest, but TV Fool and Rabbit Ears _and_ AntennaWeb all report the same basic thing), but (a) I'm in a second-floor apartment on the back side of the complex I'm in and (b) Austin is weirdly hilly in spots on top of the trees, buildings, apparently wonky atmospheric conditions, and other crap that randomly messes with a handful of channels (mostly the 7.x, 14.x and especially 31.x blocks; I'm not counting the stuff I don't even get here, like the 19.x and 20.x blocks). I've gone through various leaf-style antennae, and am currently on an amplified Clearstream Eclipse...but I've been considering something like a 2MAX or 2V because of all this, and now I'm wondering if I just need to go full HAM and figure out a way to put a full-blown aerial inside my apartment to try to sort this out once and for all. (The apartment balcony is weirdly placed WRT my living room TV, and the additional deposit for an antenna mounted on it would be insane.) Would it be overkill to just put a vertical one on a mast and lean it against the wall or so on? Would it even work worth a damn?


----------



## pnkflyd51

Hi rabbit73, johnny antenna and everyone else who has so kindly been helping me! :

I have four questions:

My HLSJ combiner will be here in a week and a half or so. It's a Cabletronix. I see that Pico Macom made these in the past, although I can't locate a source that sells these new. Q1: Is the quality of Cabletronix okay?

Also, on the HLSJ, I see it combines incoming signals from VHF-Low and VHF-High. Obviously I put my Channel Master 4221HD into the VHF-High side. Q2: Will the HLSJ also pass through the UHF frequencies on the VHF-High input side?

I did get a little impatient and had some spare time yesterday to mess around in my attic. I hooked up the rabbit ears only, extending them out horizontally and then rescanned with my HDHomeRun. I am able to pick up WGBH/RF Ch 5. It is a bit glitchy. I have alligator clips coming and I'll put the additional wire to get it to 80 inches and will mount it on a long thin board. Hopefully that will help with that situation. There will be Providence stations soon moving to RF Frequencies < channel 5 that I might be able to pick up. Q3: If I extend the wires so that that antenna is > 80 inches, will it work fine for all VHF Low stations, or should I make it 80 inches since WGBH/RF 5 is my most important station? Q4: Is it okay if the wire has insulating plastic on it or should I use uninsulated wire?

Also, just for kicks, I put a CATV splitter with both the rabbit ears and my Channel Master antenna hooked together and rescanned my HDHomeRun. It picks up all the stations, although it seems some of the UHF stations don't come in as well. I assume there can be some sort of a phase shift issue combining two antennas like this (speaking out of my backside on this- not knowledgeable about such things) and the HLSJ will improve this. However, even with the CATV splitter, it seems decent enough that I've decided to leave it in until the HLSJ arrives.

Thanks again!


----------



## rabbit73

pnkflyd51 said:


> I have four questions:
> 
> My HLSJ combiner will be here in a week and a half or so. It's a Cabletronix. I see that Pico Macom made these in the past, although I can't locate a source that sells these new. Q1: Is the quality of Cabletronix okay?


HLSJs are getting hard to find; take whatever you can get and be thankful. Without it, you would have to use a switch or separate tuner.


> Also, on the HLSJ, I see it combines incoming signals from VHF-Low and VHF-High. Obviously I put my Channel Master 4221HD into the VHF-High side. Q2: Will the HLSJ also pass through the UHF frequencies on the VHF-High input side?


Good question; I wondered the same thing myself. Yes, you connect the 4221HD to the High side and the HLSJ will pass VHF-High AND UHF.












> Q3: If I extend the wires so that that antenna is > 80 inches, will it work fine for all VHF Low stations, or should I make it 80 inches since WGBH/RF 5 is my most important station?


Theory says it is best for only 1 or 2 channels, so make it 70 inches for channel 5. However, don't let that stop you from experimenting; try it first at 80 inches and see what happens. Cut it to 70 inches if 5 isn't quite good enough.


> Q4: Is it okay if the wire has insulating plastic on it or should I use uninsulated wire?


Insulated is OK.



> Also, just for kicks, I put a CATV splitter with both the rabbit ears and my Channel Master antenna hooked together and rescanned my HDHomeRun. It picks up all the stations, although it seems some of the UHF stations don't come in as well. I assume there can be some sort of a phase shift issue combining two antennas like this (speaking out of my backside on this- not knowledgeable about such things) and the HLSJ will improve this. However, even with the CATV splitter, it seems decent enough that I've decided to leave it in until the HLSJ arrives.


What you assume is correct. The rabbit ears antenna is also picking up UHF channels, which will interfere with the UHF channels from the 4221HD. The HLSJ will block the UHF signals from the VHF-Low antenna.


----------



## rabbit73

Bill C. said:


> I'm about 11 miles due south of most of Austin's broadcast towers (I'm wondering if this is post-local repack, since I could have sworn a couple of additional stations were off to the northwest, but TV Fool and Rabbit Ears _and_ AntennaWeb all report the same basic thing)


 Hello, Bill; thank you for the signal reports.

KBVO, real channel 27, is from the NW.


> but (a) I'm in a second-floor apartment on the back side of the complex I'm


That sounds like the signals have to go through the building to get to your antenna.


> crap that randomly messes with a handful of channels (mostly the 7.x, 14.x and especially 31.x blocks; I'm not counting the stuff I don't even get here, like the 19.x and 20.x blocks).


7.x KTBS requires an antenna for VHF-High. 14.x is KBVO-CD is a low power translator for KBVO on real channel 27.


> I've gone through various leaf-style antennae, and am currently on an amplified Clearstream Eclipse...but I've been considering something like a 2MAX or 2V because of all this


The 2MAX or 2V would have more gain on UHF and have a dipole for VHF-High real channel 7. You might need to add an amp.



> and now I'm wondering if I just need to go full HAM and figure out a way to put a full-blown aerial inside my apartment to try to sort this out once and for all.


Try the 2MAX or 2V with an amp before you go bigger.



> (The apartment balcony is weirdly placed WRT my living room TV, and the additional deposit for an antenna mounted on it would be insane.)


If you have complete control over the balcony, that seems contrary to the letter and intent of the FCC OTARD Rule.


> Would it be overkill to just put a vertical one on a mast and lean it against the wall or so on? Would it even work worth a damn?


As I have found out, it is necessary to try many different locations with an indoor antenna because of multipath reflections. You might need to add the accessory reflector if you get the newer 2MAX. The best location for my indoor antenna was in the middle of the bedroom in a high traffic area (of course it was). The second best was in the corner. Normally, there is a chair in front of the bucket.


----------



## johnny antenna

pnkflyd51 said:


> ...
> I did get a little impatient and had some spare time yesterday to mess around in my attic. I hooked up the rabbit ears only, extending them out horizontally and then rescanned with my HDHomeRun. I am able to pick up WGBH/RF Ch 5. It is a bit glitchy....



You can use your Tuner Status on the HDHomerun to watch the signal as you make adjustments in length and position. It can be accessed over a smart phone if the HDHomerRun is on wifi at my.hdhomerun.com . It's doesn't update live, so it needs to be refreshed after every adjustment. The key number is the Signal Quality, the Signal Strength is irrelevant. A Signal Quality over 70 would be very good, 60 would be borderline.














* 
*


----------



## johnny antenna

Bill C. said:


> I'm about 11 miles due south of most of Austin's broadcast towers (I'm wondering if this is post-local repack, since I could have sworn a couple of additional stations were off to the northwest, but TV Fool and Rabbit Ears _and_ AntennaWeb all report the same basic thing), but (a) I'm in a second-floor apartment on the back side of the complex I'm in and (b) Austin is weirdly hilly in spots on top of the trees, buildings, apparently wonky atmospheric conditions, and other crap that randomly messes with a handful of channels (mostly the 7.x, 14.x and especially 31.x blocks; I'm not counting the stuff I don't even get here, like the 19.x and 20.x blocks). I've gone through various leaf-style antennae, and am currently on an amplified Clearstream Eclipse...but I've been considering something like a 2MAX or 2V because of all this, and now I'm wondering if I just need to go full HAM and figure out a way to put a full-blown aerial inside my apartment to try to sort this out once and for all. (The apartment balcony is weirdly placed WRT my living room TV, and the additional deposit for an antenna mounted on it would be insane.) Would it be overkill to just put a vertical one on a mast and lean it against the wall or so on? Would it even work worth a damn?



Do you have a north facing exterior wall in your apartment? If you are on the south side with other units to the north, you'll have a hard time. Metal in the walls can block signals too. I would try to get your antenna in a north facing window to see if there's improvement. Using a networked tuner can give some freedom to antenna placement. A HDHomerun tuner with a Amazon Fire Stick in the TV would be one such setup. Almost any antenna can be an indoor antenna. I have a 9' long antenna setup in a spare bedroom.


----------



## rabbit73

johnny antenna said:


> I have a 9' long antenna setup in a spare bedroom.


Interesting UHF Yagi with unusual directors. Who makes that?

I tried my HDB91X in the bedroom:


----------



## johnny antenna

rabbit73 said:


> Interesting UHF Yagi with unusual directors. Who makes that?


Fracarro Blu920f from Summit. I think the taller 19.5"x14" corner reflector panels help it get better reception. My Newark yagi has about 20"x10" reflector panels.


----------



## holl_ands

pnkflyd51 said:


> holl_ands - thanks for your post. As I'm not very knowledgeable in antenna science, not much makes sense to me, but it is very interesting. You seem to have the same link for the DIY Lo-VHF (Only) Antennas as well as a Hi-VHF + Lo-VHF DIY Antenna as for the Channel Master 4221. Any chance you meant to include a different link?


Thanks for catching that error....sometimes when I Rt-Click to Copy a Link to Clipboard, it fails to work, so I end up Pasting in the PREVIOUS Link still on the Clipboard.

FYI: Here's the Corrected Link (I also fixed the above post):
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...-related-hardware-topic-581.html#post56934904


----------



## adream8

*Kindly suggest antennas for me, you brainiacs.*

Currently using an RCA Yagi ANT751E, mounted just above the roof edge about 20 feet above ground, with no nearby obstructions. Pointed directly at Mt. Wilson, where most of the LA towers are conveniently clustered, 20 miles and 64 degrees true from me. Running a 100 foot solid copper quad-shield RG6 cable down to a new AitTV dual tuner black box.

I'm actually quite impressed with this small antenna's effectiveness, especially considering I'm in a hilly area, and even somewhat in a valley. 

There's one big mountain ridge between me and Mt. Wilson, and yet I still get in most channels solidly. I'm even getting NBC and PBS from San Diego (120 miles away!) (basin, no mountains) on a 90 degree angle to the antenna. 

But there are a few closer local channels coming from Mt. Wilson that are marginal -- they only come in on rescans about 20% of the time, depending on atmospheric conditions.

But because I can and do get them in occasionally, I'm theorizing that with a higher gain antenna, I might be able to get them in consistently like the other channels.

Already experimented with a 10 foot 1.25 inch EMT mast up from the roof line, for a total height of 30 feet instead of 20, and it's didn't help. In fact, for some reason the antenna seems to do better down lower, right above the roof line. Perhaps the signals are bouncing down there somewhere. Tried rescanning with the antenna at 1 foot increments all the way down from the top of the mast (30' to 20' feet), and lower seems to be working better overall -- those marginal channels come in more often down there, and so far not at all when it's up high.

Also tried a Winegard LNA-200 pre-amplifier, and it helped a little -- those marginal channels scanned more often. But it didn't help enough to make the difference, and it also caused some noise on VHF channels. So I returned it and am waiting on a an RCA TVPRAMP1Z preamp to arrive. It's rated lower VHF noise and higher UHF gain, so we'll see if it does better. But I know the preamp is meant to secure signals and compensate for cable loss, so I'm not counting on that. I'm focusing on raw antenna gain.

The RCA Yagi ANT751E is only about 3 feet long, and from what I've read, it probably has about a 5db gain across most of the spectrum.

I like to step up to an antenna of the same design that is about 5-6 feet long, that might give me a gain closer to 10db to see if that makes the difference in terms of getting these borderline channels consistently.

I'd prefer not to go up to large 7-8 foot long antennas just yet, due to all the added support mounting I feel I'd need to do to make it secure. But I will consider it if a medium 5-6 foot doesn't do the job. But I'd like to try a really good medium size 5-6 foot antenna first.

This is where you come in.

What works similarly to the effective little RCA, but with a higher gain, that's around 5-6 feet in length?

Here are the ones I've found so far that look promising:

RCA ANT3036, ANT3037, ANT3038 - I'm still trying to get specs on these. I emailed RCA. I think the 3036 & 3037 might be 5-6 feet. If they work like the 751, but with higher gain, they might fit the bill. $70+
https://www.rcaantennas.net/outdoor/

Winegard HD7694P VHF(8-10db)/UHF(10-11db) 65" $63 shipped
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001DFTGR4/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_mMTsDbJFZWSRN

Stellar Labs 30-2440 VHF(7-10db)/UHF(10-14db) 43" $42 shipped
https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2440/vhf-uhf-hdtv-60-mile-fringe-yagi/dp/88W2140

Stellar Labs 30-2475 VHF(8-12db) 60"
https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2475/fringe-directional-antenna-vhf/dp/48Y8141
with
Stellar Labs 30-2365 UHF(11-13db) 50" $60 total for both shipped
https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2365/long-range-uhf-hdtv-43-element/dp/72Y2541

RCA ANT751 (keep and use as VHF only, if possible)
with
Stellar Labs 30-2415 UHF(17-18db)(this seems like an unrealistic db rating) $42 shipped
https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2415/hdtv-70-mile-deep-fringe-yagi/dp/55W7740

Here's my TVFool report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=90387ffccccbc8

And here are the marginal channels I'm trying to lock in:
()=real RF; *=TVFool NM

KCET 28 (28) PBS *2.5
KMEX 34 (34) Bounce, Justice *2.4
KFTR 46 (29) getTV, Escape, Grit, Quest *4.7
KOCE 50 (18) PBS *6.4
KAZA 54 (22) MeTV, Decades *2.7
KLCS 58 (28) PBS *2.5

What do you think?

Thanks broadcast TV nerds. I'm enjoying this cord-cutting thing. 

- Anthony


----------



## johnny antenna

adream8 said:


> RCA ANT3036, ANT3037, ANT3038 - I'm still trying to get specs on these. I emailed RCA. I think the 3036 & 3037 might be 5-6 feet. If they work like the 751, but with higher gain, they might fit the bill. $70+
> https://www.rcaantennas.net/outdoor/
> 
> Winegard HD7694P VHF(8-10db)/UHF(10-11db) 65" $63 shipped
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001DFTGR4/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_mMTsDbJFZWSRN
> 
> Stellar Labs 30-2440 VHF(7-10db)/UHF(10-14db) 43" $42 shipped
> https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2440/vhf-uhf-hdtv-60-mile-fringe-yagi/dp/88W2140
> 
> Stellar Labs 30-2475 VHF(8-12db) 60"
> https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2475/fringe-directional-antenna-vhf/dp/48Y8141
> with
> Stellar Labs 30-2365 UHF(11-13db) 50" $60 total for both shipped
> https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2365/long-range-uhf-hdtv-43-element/dp/72Y2541
> 
> RCA ANT751 (keep and use as VHF only, if possible)
> with
> Stellar Labs 30-2415 UHF(17-18db)(this seems like an unrealistic db rating) $42 shipped
> https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2415/hdtv-70-mile-deep-fringe-yagi/dp/55W7740


I've tried some of the Stellar Labs antennas. The Stellar Labs antennas I recommend are the UHF 30-2370 and VHF 30-2475/30-2476. The 30-2370 is a long antenna but it's pretty light. 

The 30-2415 and 30-2440 were some of the worst antennas I've ever tried, I threw them in the metal bin at the dump.

The Winegard 7694 is a highly regarded compact VHF/UHF antenna. The next size up in VHF/UHF combo antennas are extremely large.


----------



## crabboy

adream8 said:


> Currently using an RCA Yagi ANT751E, mounted just above the roof edge about 20 feet above ground, with no nearby obstructions...
> 
> I like to step up to an antenna of the same design that is about 5-6 feet long, that might give me a gain closer to 10db to see if that makes the difference in terms of getting these borderline channels consistently...
> 
> This is where you come in....
> 
> What works similarly to the effective little RCA, but with a higher gain, that's around 5-6 feet in length?....
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Thanks broadcast TV nerds. I'm enjoying this cord-cutting thing.
> 
> - Anthony


 You might consult Mr Antenna (https://mrantenna.com/losangeles/). They sell and install antennas and can recommend the right antenna for your needs. I've never used them but they do come recommended.


----------



## adream8

johnny antenna said:


> I've tried some of the Stellar Labs antennas. The Stellar Labs antennas I recommend are the UHF 30-2370 and VHF 30-2475/30-2476. The 30-2370 is a long antenna but it's pretty light.
> 
> The 30-2415 and 30-2440 were some of the worst antennas I've ever tried, I threw them in the metal bin at the dump.
> 
> The Winegard 7694 is a highly regarded compact VHF/UHF antenna. The next size up in VHF/UHF combo antennas are extremely large.


Thank you for the feedback!

Yeah, I wasn't sure about 30-2415 or the 30-2440. I think I've seen some negative comments. Their gain ratings listed do seem a little too good to be true based on their size.

I have heard good things UHF 30-2370 / VHF 30-2476 combo on the forums. I just know they run 7-8 feet, so I was going to try a step down in size (5-6 feet) first, since we do get some crazy high hurricane force wind gusts up here a few times a year, and if I start going big, I'm probably going to need to learn to do some additional rigging, or call in a professional to do so, otherwise I might not feel comfortable that it was absolutely safe and not going to crash on someone.

I seems like the similar quality setup that is a step down in size from that is the 4-5 foot UHF 30-2365 / VHF 30-2475 combo.

Maybe that pairing, or the HP7694P (5.5 feet), are the top contenders for me to try first.

If anyone else has feedback, or knows of other good high-gain antennas in that size range, please feel free to chime in.

Value the info!


----------



## adream8

adream8 said:


> I have heard good things UHF 30-2370 / VHF 30-2476 combo on the forums. I just know they run 7-8 feet, so I was going to try a step down in size (5-6 feet) first, since we do get some crazy high hurricane force wind gusts up here a few times a year, and if I start going big, I'm probably going to need to learn to do some additional rigging, or call in a professional to do so, otherwise I might not feel comfortable that it was absolutely safe and not going to crash on someone.


Then again, maybe that extra foot or two isn't going to make a tremendous difference in terms of wind and rigging. I'm using an old 1 7/8" EMT pipe that's already running up the side of the house. It goes 3 feet higher that the roof edge. If I end up needing more height, which I probably would for larger antennas, I would clamp a 10 foot 1.25" EMT pipe to it with 2-3 good clamps, spread out on that overlapping 3 feet. So the antenna wouldn't be more than 10 feet above the roof line. From what I'm reading now, the consensus seems to be that one doesn't need guy wires if the antenna mast is secure and 10 feet or less above the roof line. So maybe I just need to make sure that old original pipe is really secure, and that the mast clamps for the additional pipe are also really strong and secure. Maybe that will do it.


----------



## johnny antenna

adream8 said:


> ..
> Yeah, I wasn't sure about 30-2415 or the 30-2440. I think I've seen some negative comments. Their gain ratings listed do seem a little too good to be true based on their size.
> ..


The 30-2415 and 30-2440 are Chinese knockoffs of the Spanish Televes line of antennas. The Televes antennas are reputed to be sturdy antennas but I don't have any direct experience with them. Televes has a VHF/UHF combo model in their line.


----------



## holl_ands

Your RCA ANT-751 (with 4 Elements for Hi-VHF Band providing Gain = 4-6 dBd = 6-8 dBi) is apparently working for (at least Ch7/9/11/13) Major Networks, with lowest NM of about 20 dB. Hence, I'm going to recommend that you either KEEP IT and add your choice of a UHF-Only Antenna, such as any of the 4-Bay Bowties (e.g. S-S HDB-4X, CM4221HD, DB-4e)....OR Replace it with a Hi-VHF/COMBO Antenna....such as W-G HD7694P [65-in Boom] which provides 8-10 dBd = 10-12 dBi Gain in Hi-VHF Band and 11.5 to 10.4 dBd = 13.7 to 12.6 dBi in NEW UHF Band:

Note that HD7694P provides MORE UHF Gain on higher channels and LESS UHF Gain on lower channels than CM4221HD and DB-4e....from your TVFool Report and above summary, it appears that your best choice would be your choice of 4-Bay Bowtie [AD-4e is likely the sturdiest, their "similar" DB-8e survived a 123 mph Wind Tunnel Test]:
https://photos.imageevent.com/holl_...H3 H2 CM4221 CM4221HD 91XG HD769x C4 - RG.jpg
http://www.antennasdirect.com/blog/...d-clearstream-c1-convertible-wind-tunnel-test

I would shy away from the Stellar Labs 30-2415 "Tri-Beam" UHF-Only Antenna, which has MUCH higher Wind Resistance than Gain would justify. The specs are NOT to be believed for our NEW UHF Band (reduced to just Ch14-36). It is clearly a KLONE of the Televes DAT-75, which only provides about 12.5 dBi on 470 MHz (OUR Ch14). Note that specs for S-L 30-2415 are clearly for the EURO UHF Band, starting with EURO Ch21 (470-478 MHz)....and the extremely high Gain numbers are for channels well above our NEW UHF Band.

Here are specs and Gain Curve for original Televes DAT-75:
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/Televes/MXDAT_Tech.pdf
https://www.aerialsandtv.com/gaincurves.html#WidebandCurves [Televes Tri-Boom 75 aka DAT-75 and 46 aka DAT-45]

Fol. is a Gain Curve for the Mux Magician KLONE "Tri-Beam" [towards bottom of page], as measured by UK experts at AerialsAndTV.com:
https://www.aerialsandtv.com/tvaerialtests.html

And fol. is my post re. Televes "Tri-Beam" Antennas sold by Solid Signal, which were re-designed for OUR old UHF Band (Ch14-51):
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...televes-long-range-uhf-yagi.html#post42208289


----------



## old tv guy

Since your uhf stations are spread out in a 80 degree spread i suggest a DB8e with one 4 bay aimed northeast and one southeast for maximum uhf capture area and horizontal beamwidth.
Maximum capture area is what is needed when uhf stations are not line of sight and nothing has greater capture area than a phased array bowtie.
You can then either keep the RCA 751 for 7-13 or buy a Winegard HD7000 to take advantage of the low vhf 2-6 channels as well.


----------



## etbrown44

*Newbie Antenna Question*

New to all this.

I've tried a $30 Walmart antenna in my attic 

Here's the top of my Fool list...

WRIC DT 22 8.1 ABC 78 NM (DB)
WTVR TV 23 CBS 74
WCVE TV 42 23.1 PBS 73 
WCVW DT 44 57 PBS 67

Somehow I'm getting just 3 channels, but NONE which are on the fools list, somehow?
The 3 I get are clear as a bell, and from the local NBC station - not listed.

I'm fairly close to the stations but in a low area surrounded by tons of very tall trees.

What should I try?


----------



## rabbit73

etbrown44 said:


> New to all this.
> 
> I've tried a $30 Walmart antenna in my attic
> 
> Somehow I'm getting just 3 channels, but NONE which are on the fools list, somehow?
> 
> I'm fairly close to the stations but in a low area surrounded by tons of very tall trees.
> 
> What should I try?


Hello etbrown44; welcome to the forum. Since I live in VA, those are familiar callsigns.

Which Walmart antenna did you try?

Your channel list indicates strong signals, but the attic location and the trees will make the signals weaker.

We will need to see your TVFool signal report (or rabbitears.info report) as required in the sticky before we can give you accurate advice. It says:
*NOTE: Put YOUR LOCATION in the TITLE of ALL OTA threads & RabbitEars info in 1st post*
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...all-ota-threads-rabbitears-info-1st-post.html

I will then be able to add the missing channels using a different report; TVFool is using a defective database to generate reports. An alternate report can be done here:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php


The NBC station is WWBT on real channel 12, which is in a different location than your first 4.
WWBT will be moving to real channel 10 during Repack Phase 8, 1/18/2020 to 3/13/2020
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=30833#station

https://www.rabbitears.info/repackchannels.php?country=US&city=&state=&mktid=73&owner=&sort=&ph=&lss=&status=

https://www.fcc.gov/about-fcc/fcc-initiatives/incentive-auctions/transition-schedule


----------



## adream8

holl_ands said:


> Your RCA ANT-751 (with 4 Elements for Hi-VHF Band providing Gain = 4-6 dBd = 6-8 dBi) is apparently working for (at least Ch7/9/11/13) Major Networks, with lowest NM of about 20 dB. Hence, I'm going to recommend that you either KEEP IT and add your choice of a UHF-Only Antenna, such as any of the 4-Bay Bowties (e.g. S-S HDB-4X, CM4221HD, DB-4e)....OR Replace it with a Hi-VHF/COMBO Antenna....such as W-G HD7694P [65-in Boom] which provides 8-10 dBd = 10-12 dBi Gain in Hi-VHF Band and 11.5 to 10.4 dBd = 13.7 to 12.6 dBi in NEW UHF Band:
> 
> Note that HD7694P provides MORE UHF Gain on higher channels and LESS UHF Gain on lower channels than CM4221HD and DB-4e....from you TVFool Report and above summary, it appears that your best choice would be your choice of 4-Bay Bowtie [AD-4e is likely the sturdiest, their "similar" DB-8e survived a 123 mph Wind Tunnel Test]:
> https://photos.imageevent.com/holl_...H3 H2 CM4221 CM4221HD 91XG HD769x C4 - RG.jpg
> http://www.antennasdirect.com/blog/...d-clearstream-c1-convertible-wind-tunnel-test
> 
> I would shy away from the Stellar Labs 30-2415 "Tri-Beam" UHF-Only Antenna, which has MUCH higher Wind Resistance than Gain would justify. The specs are NOT to be believed for our NEW UHF Band (reduced to just Ch14-36). It is clearly a KLONE of the Televes DAT-75, which only provides about 12.5 dBi on 470 MHz (OUR Ch14). Note that specs for S-L 30-2415 are clearly for the EURO UHF Band, starting with EURO Ch21 (470-478 MHz)....and the extremely high Gain numbers are for channels well above our NEW UHF Band.
> [/URL]


Thanks holl_ands! Good stuff!

I will steer clear of the SL 30-2415 and 30-2440 then, based on feedback from you and others.

Yes the ANT751 is working well for me for high-VHF.

I'm just trying to get in those specific UHF channels I listed at this point, which are all located at the same spot on Mt. Wilson, which is why I was thinking of sticking with a directional antenna as opposed to a bowtie. But I'm certainly open to whatever works. I know the bowties generally have better low end gain the most of the dated directionals we have to choose from.

These are the channels:
()=real RF; *=TVFool NM

KCET 28 (28) PBS *2.5
KMEX 34 (34) Bounce, Justice *2.4
KFTR 46 (29) getTV, Escape, Grit, Quest *4.7
KOCE 50 (18) PBS *6.4
KAZA 54 (22) MeTV, Decades *2.7
KLCS 58 (28) PBS *2.5

I entirely take your point about how all these old directional antennas are not ideally calibrated for the new reduced UHF 470- 600Mhz spectrum (channels 14-36). Understood.

Most all the key channels in the LA market have already moved to RF 14-36, so 600Mhz+ is pretty much irrelevant at this point. I don't really need or want an antenna with all the strongest gain way up there where it will be useless.

That said, those Group A ariels (XB16A, Yagi18A, XB10A) from GB look pretty great for our post-repack needs, huh?

https://www.aerialsandtv.com/atvstockaerialtests.html#Agroup

I haven't seen anything like those available in the U.S. yet. Or am I mistaken?


.. Wow! I just looked it up, and that Yagi18A is only $48 U.S. shipped from GB!

Worth it?

What do you think?


----------



## holl_ands

Yagi 18A looks good, being more or less comparable to a 4-Bay Bowtie.
Here's a photo:
https://www.aerialsandtv.com/yagi18reports.html

Which model did you find for $48 delivered????
Is is fol. Labgear model LABGT18A:
https://www.labgear.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/LABGT18A_IM_V1.pdf


----------



## adream8

holl_ands said:


> Yagi 18A looks good, being more or less comparable to a 4-Bay Bowtie.
> Here's a photo:
> https://www.aerialsandtv.com/yagi18reports.html
> 
> Which model did you find for $48 delivered????
> Is is fol. Labgear model LABGT18A:
> https://www.labgear.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/LABGT18A_IM_V1.pdf


No, right from arielsandtv.com. Here:

https://www.aerialsandtv.com/onlineaerials.html#Yagi18s

I added it to my cart, and PayPal is giving me that price!

Should we both buy one? Haha.

They seem reputable and that seems like a good deal for a quality 6.5 foot directional calibrated perfectly for the repack.

Am I right? 😉


----------



## rabbit73

The XB16A has more gain, but costs more. Note that the gain is in dBd; add 2.15 for dBi.










https://www.aerialsandtv.com/onlineaerials.html#XB16s


----------



## adream8

holl_ands said:


> Yagi 18A looks good, being more or less comparable to a 4-Bay Bowtie.
> Here's a photo:
> https://www.aerialsandtv.com/yagi18reports.html
> 
> Which model did you find for $48 delivered????
> Is is fol. Labgear model LABGT18A:
> https://www.labgear.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/LABGT18A_IM_V1.pdf


Comparable gain curve to the 4 bay bowties in the 470-600Mhz range. Looks even somewhat better in the higher end.

4 bay bowties : 11.5dBi @470Mhz - 13.5dBi @ 600dBi
Yagi 18A: 11dBi @470Mhz - 15dBi @ 600dBi

But how does it compare to the bowties in terms of distance and direction?

I'm guessing greater distance but narrower beam than the bowties, yes?

But by how much?


----------



## adream8

rabbit73 said:


> Look again, the XB16A has more gain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.aerialsandtv.com/onlineaerials.html#XB16s



Indeed.. BUT.. possibly too big for me and probably not necessary for my needs.

And on their website they recommend the Yagi18A for most fringe rooftop installations due to it's ruggedness.

The XB16A looks awesome, but they recommend it for extreme fringe. Probably overkill for me in my situation (see my first post above).

Dig it though! 😊

A foot longer, bigger, more wind resistance, and an extra 1.5dBi for $83 shipped! ($35 more than the Yagi18A)


----------



## holl_ands

adream8 said:


> Comparable gain curve to the 4 bay bowties in the 470-600Mhz range. Looks even somewhat better in the higher end.
> 
> 4 bay bowties : 11.5dBi @470Mhz - 13.5dBi @ 600dBi
> Yagi 18A: 11dBi @470Mhz - 15dBi @ 600dBi
> 
> But how does it compare to the bowties in terms of distance and direction?
> 
> I'm guessing greater distance but narrower beam than the bowties, yes?
> 
> But by how much?


 Distance is directly improved by increase in Gain in the direction of the desired Station (so Beamwidth is also important if not directly on-axis). However, note that a 1 dB improvement in SNR would be very difficult to PROVE, much less notice in everyday viewing due to wide fluctuation in signal strength from minute-to-minute, hour-to-hour, day-to-day and season-to-season.

"Direction", I presume you mean Beamwidth, which is usually narrower in direct proportion to Gain increase. BTW: Beamwidth spec of +/-18-deg = 36-deg for LABGT18A is likely ONLY for the HIGHEST Frequency and would be wider on lower Freqs....see for example fol. (discontinued) Wade CYD-1446 4nec2 model, which has 4 more Directors and hence would be a "Yagi 22A" type Antenna:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/uhf16elyagi6rrcornerwadecyd1446
Azimuthal Increments are 5-deg, so Calculated Beamwidth shown on Az. Pattern Charts has 10-deg granularity.

I don't know exact dimensions of YAGI 18A, but I will go ahead and do an Optimization Run for a "similar" 12-Element Yagi + 6 Corner Reflector Rods model so we can see what sort of Beamwidth to expect.

Yes, Yagi 18A Optimized for 608 MHz has about 1 dB higher Gain at that Freq than any of the Commercially available 4-Bay Bowties designed for 806 MHz....or DB-4e which appears to be designed for a bit more than 698 MHz:
https://photos.imageevent.com/holl_...H3 H2 CM4221 CM4221HD 91XG HD769x C4 - RG.jpg

However there are several DIY M4 and FF4 4-Bays and even the FF3 3-Bay designed for 698 MHz that are far superior....and this Comparison Chart does NOT include the latest versions Re-OPTimized for the NEW UHF Band [608 MHz] with slightly higher Gain. [I need to prepare another Chart.]

===============================================
FYI: Alternative sources for Group A Yagi's:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/LABGEAR-LABGT18A-AERIAL-Epitome-Verified/dp/B01ATKOC36
https://www.jwhardy.co.uk/shop/product/Yagi_18A.html?pl_type=pages;pl_data=pl_ant_ter
https://antiference.co.uk/web-cont1001/uploads/RX-Yagi-Technical-Specifications.pdf [Yagi 12A and 20A Types]
https://cpc.farnell.com/search?st=18 element group A [Yagi 10A, 12A, 15A, 20A and an LPDA]
https://www.triax.com/products/terr...-antennas/unix-100-lte-700-ch-21-48-color-box [X-Yagi, 16.2 dBi at 602 MHz]


----------



## etbrown44

*Richmond, Va HDTV*

As a newbie, Not sure if I can post a link but if not the Rabbit Ears is #3495 

I'm in close proximity to a dozen or so stations, however I can only pick up 3 . Rabbit Ears shows those as the 3 weakest.

What's unique is I'm in a very low area and blocked by tall dense forest in all directions, like 100' tall.

My antenna is in the attic, and not sure the type but is supposedly 28db gain.

Before the change 5-10 or more years ago, I could get 12 or more channels.

Not sure what to try next or even if antenna is good enough or even the right type. Admin won't let me attach pic, but its from Walmart for about $20 and a Ktaxon xj-100a


----------



## adream8

holl_ands said:


> Distance is directly improved by increase in Gain in the direction of the desired Station (so Beamwidth is also important if not directly on-axis). However, note that a 1 dB improvement in SNR would be very difficult to PROVE, much less notice in everyday viewing due to wide fluctuation in signal strength from minute-to-minute, hour-to-hour, day-to-day and season-to-season.
> 
> "Direction", I presume you mean Beamwidth, which is usually narrower in direct proportion to Gain increase. BTW: Beamwidth spec of +/-18-deg = 36-deg for LABGT18A is likely ONLY for the HIGHEST Frequency and would be wider on lower Freqs....see for example fol. (discontinued) Wade CYD-1446 4nec2 model, which has 4 more Directors and hence would be a "Yagi 22A" type Antenna:
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/uhf16elyagi6rrcornerwadecyd1446
> Azimuthal Increments are 5-deg, so Calculated Beamwidth shown on Az. Pattern Charts has 10-deg granularity.
> 
> I don't know exact dimensions of YAGI 18A, but I will go ahead and do an Optimization Run for a "similar" 12-Element Yagi + 6 Corner Reflector Rods model so we can see what sort of Beamwidth to expect.
> 
> Yes, Yagi 18A Optimized for 608 MHz has about 1 dB higher Gain at that Freq than any of the Commercially available 4-Bay Bowties designed for 806 MHz....or DB-4e which appears to be designed for a bit more than 698 MHz:
> https://photos.imageevent.com/holl_...H3 H2 CM4221 CM4221HD 91XG HD769x C4 - RG.jpg
> 
> However there are several DIY M4 and FF4 4-Bays and even the FF3 3-Bay designed for 698 MHz that are far superior....and this Comparison Chart does NOT include the latest versions Re-OPTimized for the NEW UHF Band [608 MHz] with slightly higher Gain. [I need to prepare another Chart.]
> 
> ===============================================
> FYI: Alternative sources for Group A Yagi's:
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/LABGEAR-LABGT18A-AERIAL-Epitome-Verified/dp/B01ATKOC36
> https://www.jwhardy.co.uk/shop/product/Yagi_18A.html?pl_type=pages;pl_data=pl_ant_ter
> https://antiference.co.uk/web-cont1001/uploads/RX-Yagi-Technical-Specifications.pdf [Yagi 12A and 20A Types]
> https://cpc.farnell.com/search?st=18 element group A [Yagi 10A, 12A, 15A, 20A and an LPDA]
> https://www.triax.com/products/terr...-antennas/unix-100-lte-700-ch-21-48-color-box [X-Yagi, 16.2 dBi at 602 MHz]


More great info, thank you.

Yes, incorporating the A Group antennas into your chart would be great.

Looks like most all the A Group antennas you listed go for around $35 U.S. (before overseas shipping) and have a ~11-15dbi gain and a beam width in the 30-40* range. Not too shabby.


----------



## rabbit73

etbrown44 said:


> As a newbie, Not sure if I can post a link but if not the Rabbit Ears is #3495


Thank you for the report number. This is the link to your report:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=3495



> Not sure what to try next or even if antenna is good enough or even the right type. Admin won't let me attach pic, but its from Walmart for about $20 and a Ktaxon xj-100a


This is your antenna:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Ktaxon-X...oor-Amplified-Antenna-TV-UHF-VHF-FM/590276265


----------



## old tv guy

Capture area is more important than gain in most non line of sight locations.
Signals will be severely reduced by multipath, trees, and hills and signals won't all arrive at the same azimuth or elevation from every transmitter.
If the signals arrive just 1\4 wavelength above or below a yagi, the signal is reduced.
A 4 bay bowtie can easily capture signals one wavelength above or below their mounting position without signal degradation.
For this reason the phased array is able to capture signals that arrive above, below, or to the side which long boom yagis can't.


----------



## adream8

old tv guy said:


> Since your uhf stations are spread out in a 80 degree spread i suggest a DB8e with one 4 bay aimed northeast and one southeast for maximum uhf capture area and horizontal beamwidth.
> Maximum capture area is what is needed when uhf stations are not line of sight and nothing has greater capture area than a phased array bowtie.
> You can then either keep the RCA 751 for 7-13 or buy a Winegard HD7000 to take advantage of the low vhf 2-6 channels as well.


Thanks, old tv guy!

Most of the stations I'm trying to get are all clustered on Mt. Wilson.

The others at other directions are mostly redundant or not really applicable for me (duplicate networks, foreign niche, etc.) and many are coming from San Diego (127 miles away!). (No mountains, only basin towards SD -- that might be why I'm getting them at such a distance.) Amazingly, I'm getting NBC and PBS from San Diego perfectly at about a 75* angle from where my ANT751 Yagi is pointed.

But I take your point about maximizing capture area for non-line-site towers with bow-tie type antennas, and will therefore consider them. I'm only 20 miles from the towers, but it's definitely hilly where I am, and there's one mountain ridge blocking direct LOS. Fortunately Mt. Wilson is 5700 feet, which is significantly higher than most other mountains in LA, otherwise I probably wouldn't be receiving all these channels as well as I am.


----------



## adream8

old tv guy said:


> Capture area is more important than gain in most non line of sight locations.
> Signals will be severely reduced by multipath, trees, and hills and signals won't all arrive at the same azimuth or elevation from every transmitter.
> If the signals arrive just 1\4 wavelength above or below a yagi, the signal is reduced.
> A 4 bay bowtie can easily capture signals one wavelength above or below their mounting position without signal degradation.
> For this reason the phased array is able to capture signals that arrive above, below, or to the side which long boom yagis can't.


HEARD. And duly noted. 

I may try a 4 or 8 bay bowtie based on you advice.

That might make the difference considering my terrain.

Think I might still get in those San Diego stations 127 miles away with a bowtie?

Are there any commercial bowtie types available yet that are optimized for the updated 470-600Mhz spectrum?


----------



## etbrown44

As mentioned above my rabbit ear report is 3495
My antenna is from Walmart Ktaxon xj-100a


New to this forum. It's hard to tell who is responding to which post.

I'm close to lots of stations but can't receive but three due to a forest full of 100' trees all around me.

Not sure if I have a Yagi, and not sure if the recommendation of the 8 bay bow tie is for me.


----------



## etbrown44

etbrown44 said:


> As mentioned above my rabbit ear report is 3495
> My antenna is from Walmart Ktaxon xj-100a
> 
> 
> New to this forum. It's hard to tell who is responding to which post.
> 
> I'm close to lots of stations but can't receive but three due to a forest full of 100' trees all around me.
> 
> Not sure if I have a Yagi, and not sure if the recommendation of the 8 bay bow tie is for me.


woops..... 4 bay bow tie maybe?


----------



## rabbit73

etbrown44 said:


> As mentioned above my rabbit ear report is 3495
> My antenna is from Walmart Ktaxon xj-100a
> 
> New to this forum. It's hard to tell who is responding to which post.
> 
> I'm close to lots of stations but can't receive but three due to a forest full of 100' trees all around me.
> 
> Not sure if I have a Yagi, and not sure if the recommendation of the 8 bay bow tie is for me.


 Hello, etbrown44; welcome to the forum.

I responded to your post in my post above No. 17752. I gave this link for your report:

https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=3495

and I showed this image of your antenna, which we call an amplified "150-mile" antenna. They are inexpensive, and don't last very long. The internal amplifier tends to be overloaded by strong signals:










Your antenna is a Yagi for UHF channels with a folded dipole for VHF channels 7-13, not a bowtie. I haven't yet made a suggestion about an antenna for you.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Ktaxon-X...oor-Amplified-Antenna-TV-UHF-VHF-FM/590276265

You can tell if an answer if for you if it has "posted by *etbrown44*" for a quote by you.


----------



## rabbit73

etbrown44 said:


> I'm close to lots of stations but can't receive but three due to a forest full of 100' trees all around me.


 Which three do you receive?










If your antenna was outside and in the clear, your signals are strong enough to overload the preamp built in the antenna. Since your antenna is in the attic and there are trees in the signal path, at this point we don't know how strong the signals are in the attic. You will need to do some experiments with another antenna to see if you can improve your reception.

How many TVs are you feeding with that antenna?

If I were there with you, I would want to try a GE 29884 first, without a preamp with just one TV and a short length of RG6 coax.










The antenna comes as a kit which requires assembly, but I think I read somewhere that you are a Master Electrician, so that should be easy for you.


----------



## etbrown44

I can only receive the 3 Wwbt channels 12.1, 12.2, 12.3
Just supplying 1 tv using a 50' cable.

Other than the GE 29884, what other antenna might work?

One newbie thought is since I'm surrounded by trees on 3 sides, but have a 500' oven river front on my north side (where there are no stations) might an omni directional antenna work, since a direct line of sight is blocked by trees?


----------



## rabbit73

etbrown44 said:


> I can only receive the 3 Wwbt channels 12.1, 12.2, 12.3
> Just supplying 1 tv using a 50' cable.
> 
> Other than the GE 29884, what other antenna might work?
> 
> One newbie thought is since I'm surrounded by trees on 3 sides, but have a 500' oven river front on my north side (where there are no stations) might an omni directional antenna work, since a direct line of sight is blocked by trees?


WWBT is really just one TV channel that has sub channels. Your UHF channels are missing. My guess is that the preamp in the antenna is being overloaded.

Maybe, Channel Master STEALTHtenna50
https://www.channelmaster.com/STEAL...door_TV_Antenna_p/cm-3010hd.htm#reviewSection

RCA ANT751E
https://www.amazon.com/RCA-Compact-Outdoor-Antenna-ANT751E/dp/B0024R4B5C

Next step up
Winegard HD7694P

If you are curious, you can try an omni, but I don't think it would do any better than what you have now.

You can try aiming it in any direction you would like, but normally the antenna should be aimed at the transmitter.

But, you are right about the trees, they block UHF signals more than VHF signals.

I can't give you any guarantee; too many factors involved, like the type of construction in the attic.


----------



## holl_ands

adream8 said:


> HEARD. And duly noted.
> 
> I may try a 4 or 8 bay bowtie based on you advice.
> 
> That might make the difference considering my terrain.
> 
> Think I might still get in those San Diego stations 127 miles away with a bowtie?
> 
> Are there any commercial bowtie types available yet that are optimized for the updated 470-600Mhz spectrum?


1) Based on what I see in your (Corrected) TVFool and RabbitEars Report (see below), it does NOT look good, I recommend you go for the BIG GUNS, such as CM4228HD or DB-8e UHF Only Antenna [with PreAmp] to use with your existing RCA ANT-741 for Hi-VHF.

2) I took a screen shot of your TVFool MAP report for KNSD (Chxx) on Top of Mt Soledad in San Diego [see below]. At your Elevation you are surrounded by the PURPLE color [similar for KSWB (Ch26), KPBS (C30), KUSI (18)]....so it MAY BE POSSIBLE with an Outdoor 8-Bay pointed in that direction....and very iffy in Attic. Due to your Elevation, similar PURPLE colors are seen for San Diego Ch8 (KFMB, CBS) and Ch10 (KGTV, ABC) on top of Mt Soledad (in LaJolla)....so it might be worth pointing your Hi-VHF Antenna in that direction....however local KFLA (Ch8) and KZSW (Ch10) MAY prevent reception....with better chances on Ch10, since KZSW would be in the Antenna Side NULL....and reliability should improve if you upgrade to say the Stellar-Labs 30-2475 9-Element or 20-2476 12-Element Hi-VHF Yagi:
https://www.amazon.com/30-2475-Fringe-Directional-Antenna-174-230MHz/dp/B014M0XXES
https://www.amazon.com/30-2476-Fringe-Directional-Antenna-174-230MHz/dp/B07R69QJ3Q

3) NO, NOT YET. There are NO Commercially available Antennas in U.S./Canada specifically designed for the NEW UHF Band....just a few Euro Antennas designed for their very similar "CLASS A" Antenna Band.

=======================================================
TVFool hasn't been keeping up with recent changes [even if you click on "pending applications included"]. Here is a list of the more obvious changes NOT YET in TVOOL: 1) KDOC (Ch12) and KVCR (Ch5) are missing, 3) KHWY is now sharing Ch4 with KBEH (was Ch24), 4) KRCA (IND) vacated Ch35 and is now sharing Ch7 with KABC, 5) KILM moved from Ch44 to Ch24, and 6) San Diego's KNSD moved from Ch40 down to Ch17.

SOooo....using TVFool's MAP capability, I estimated your LAT/LONG by moving the RX ICON until distances to KHIX and KVCR matched up [i.e. Reverse Bi-Lateration]. I then used Google Map to determine the Street Address of a House near that address that also matched the Calculated NM values, which MIGHT be you...or a neighbor within about 0.1 mile. I could then plug that nearby Street Address into RabbitEars's Search Engine (which uses latest info, but a very DIFFERENT algorithm, incl. Co-Channel/Adj-Channel Interference), results shown here: [Elev. ~ 692-ft from another website] https://www.rabbitears.info/search.php

BTW: It is way too soon to determine whether RabbitEars TVStudy calculations are providing BETTER or WORSE Results than TVFool [which I have personally VERIFIED versus user Reports]. I note that in most cases they are QUITE DIFFERENT. For many stations, R-E SigMargin values were very roughly 6 dB LOWER than TVFool's NM value. And then there are the Outliers, for example KYAN NM=28.1 in TVFool but SigMargin = -66.1 dB in R-E, KABC (Ch7) NM=28.0 dB but SigMargin = -16.2 dB, KCAL (Ch9) NM=21.0 but SigMargin = 13.0 dB, KTTV (Ch11) NM=20.9 dB but SigMargin = 4.6 dB, KCOP (Ch13) NM=19.7 dB but SigMargin = 3.2 dB.

*Stations for Exact Address in 90069*

*Current Search*

Virtual(Real) Callsign Network Location Distance(Miles) Direction(True) Signal(dBuV/m) Quality SignalMargin(dB) 
22‑1 (4) KWHY-TV IND LOS ANGELES CA 19.6 66° 69.29 Fair 41.29 
63‑1 (4) KBEH IND GARDEN GROVE CA 19.6 66° 69.29 Fair 41.29 
56‑1 (12) KDOC-TV IND ANAHEIM CA 19.7 62° 58.23  Poor 22.23 
39‑1 (2) KHIZ-LD network_affiliation LOS ANGELES CA 19.7 62° 54.04  Poor 26.04 
7‑1 (7) KABC-TV ABC LOS ANGELES CA 19.8 63° 52.21  Poor 16.21 
62‑1 (7) KRCA Estrella RIVERSIDE CA 19.8 63° 52.21  Poor 16.21 
6‑1 (6) KZNO-LP network_affiliation BIG BEAR LAKE CA 19.6 66° 50.43  Poor 22.43 
 10‑1 (10) KZSW-LD network_affiliation RIVERSIDE CA 63.5 98° 49.93  Poor 13.93 
9‑1 (9) KCAL-TV IND LOS ANGELES CA 19.8 63° 49.01  Poor 13.01 
45‑1 (26) KEDD-LD network_affiliation LOS ANGELES CA 2.8 150° 48.60  Poor 11.58 
40‑1 (33) KTBN-TV TBN SANTA ANA CA 19.9 64° 48.30  Poor 11.28 
8‑1 (8) KFLA-LD IND LOS ANGELES CA 19.8 63° 43.75  Poor 7.75 
4‑1 (36) KNBC NBC LOS ANGELES CA 19.8 63° 42.89  Poor 5.87 
11‑1 (11) KTTV FOX LOS ANGELES CA 19.9 63° 40.56 Bad 4.56 
6‑1 (5) KRVD-LD BANNING CA 38.9 80° 40.55 Bad 12.55 
10‑1 (10) KIIO-LD network_affiliation LOS ANGELES CA 11.2 66° 40.41 Bad 4.41 
18‑1 (18) KSCI ETH LONG BEACH CA 19.6 66° 40.16 Bad 3.14 
50‑1 (18) KOCE-TV ETH HUNTINGTON BEACH CA 19.6 66° 40.16 Bad 3.14 
14‑1 (27) KPOM-CD IND ONTARIO CA 39.1 80° 39.84 Bad 2.82 
13‑1 (13) KCOP-TV MNT LOS ANGELES CA 19.9 63° 39.15 Bad 3.15 
46‑1 (29) KFTR-DT UniMas ONTARIO CA 19.8 63° 38.62 Bad 1.6 
2‑1 (31) KCBS-TV CBS LOS ANGELES CA 19.7 62° 37.14 Bad 0.12 
57‑1 (51) KJLA Azteca VENTURA CA 19.8 63° 36.89 Bad -0.13 
5‑1 (35) KTLA CW LOS ANGELES CA 19.8 63° 36.83 Bad -0.19 
34‑1 (34) KMEX-DT UNI LOS ANGELES CA 19.8 63° 36.61 Bad -0.41 
58‑1 (28) KLCS EDU LOS ANGELES CA 19.9 64° 35.20 Bad -1.82 
28‑1 (28) KCET EDU LOS ANGELES CA 19.9 64° 35.20 Bad -1.82 
52‑1 (25) KVEA TLM CORONA CA 19.8 63° 33.70 Bad -3.32 
44‑1 (30) KXLA ETH RANCHO PALOS VERDES CA 19.8 63° 33.11 Bad -3.91 
6‑1 (22) KHTV-CD IND LOS ANGELES CA 19.6 66° 32.14 Bad -4.88 
54‑1 (22) KAZA-TV MeTV AVALON CA 19.6 66° 32.14 Bad -4.88 
20‑1 (32) KNLA-CD IND LOS ANGELES CA 19.7 62° 28.00 Bad -9.02 
25‑1 (32) KNET-CD IND LOS ANGELES CA 19.7 62° 28.00 Bad -9.02 
35‑1 (46) KTAV-LD REL LANCASTER CA 19.8 63° 27.54 Bad -9.48 
8‑1 (8) KILA-LD IND CHERRY VALLEY CA 62.8 98° 27.40 Bad -8.6 
30‑1 (24) KPXN-TV ION SAN BERNARDINO CA 19.8 63° 26.99 Bad -10.03 
64‑1 (24) KILM IONPlus INGLEWOOD CA 19.8 63° 26.99 Bad -10.03 
26‑1 (40) KVHD-LD REL LOS ANGELES CA 19.8 63° 25.75 Bad -11.27 
45‑1 (26) KSKJ-CD REL VAN NUYS CA 19.6 66° 25.61 Bad -11.41 
24‑1 (5) KVCR-DT PBS SAN BERNARDINO CA 63.1 98° 24.36 Bad -3.64 
6‑1 (22) KMRZ-LD network_affiliation  Pomona CA 19.7 62° 21.29 Bad -15.73 
12‑1 (12) KTBV-LD REL LOS ANGELES CA 19.4 323° 21.09 Bad -14.91 
29‑1 (30) KSGA-LD Azteca Los Angeles CA 19.8 63° 20.29 Bad -16.73 
31‑1 (23) KSMV-LD Independent LOS ANGELES CA 19.8 63° 15.36 Bad -21.66 
17‑1 (21) KHAX-LP UNI VISTA CA 91.6 131° 15.25 Bad -21.77


----------



## adream8

holl_ands said:


> 1) Based on what I see in your (Corrected) TVFool and RabbitEars Report (see below), it does NOT look good, I recommend you go for the BIG GUNS, such as CM4228HD or DB-8e UHF Only Antenna [with PreAmp] to use with your existing RCA ANT-741 for Hi-VHF.
> 
> 2) I took a screen shot of your TVFool MAP report for KNSD (Chxx) on Top of Mt Soledad in San Diego [see below]. At your Elevation you are surrounded by the PURPLE color [similar for KSWB (Ch26), KPBS (C30), KUSI (18)]....so it MAY BE POSSIBLE with an Outdoor 8-Bay pointed in that direction....and very iffy in Attic. Due to your Elevation, similar PURPLE colors are seen for San Diego Ch8 (KFMB, CBS) and Ch10 (KGTV, ABC) on top of Mt Soledad (in LaJolla)....so it might be worth pointing your Hi-VHF Antenna in that direction....however local KFLA (Ch8) and KZSW (Ch10) MAY prevent reception....with better chances on Ch10, since KZSW would be in the Antenna Side NULL....and reliability should improve if you upgrade to say the Stellar-Labs 30-2475 9-Element or 20-2476 12-Element Hi-VHF Yagi:
> https://www.amazon.com/30-2475-Fringe-Directional-Antenna-174-230MHz/dp/B014M0XXES
> https://www.amazon.com/30-2476-Fringe-Directional-Antenna-174-230MHz/dp/B07R69QJ3Q
> 
> 3) NO, NOT YET. There are NO Commercially available Antennas in U.S./Canada specifically designed for the NEW UHF Band....just a few Euro Antennas designed for their very similar "CLASS A" Antenna Band.
> 
> =======================================================
> TVFool hasn't been keeping up with recent changes [even if you click on "pending applications included"]. Here is a list of the more obvious changes NOT YET in TVOOL: 1) KDOC (Ch12) and KVCR (Ch5) are missing, 3) KHWY is now sharing Ch4 with KBEH (was Ch24), 4) KRCA (IND) vacated Ch35 and is now sharing Ch7 with KABC, 5) KILM moved from Ch44 to Ch24, and 6) San Diego's KNSD moved from Ch40 down to Ch17.
> 
> SOooo....using TVFool's MAP capability, I estimated your LAT/LONG by moving the RX ICON until distances to KHIX and KVCR matched up [i.e. Reverse Bi-Lateration]. I then used Google Map to determine the Street Address of a House near that address that also matched the Calculated NM values, which MIGHT be you...or a neighbor within about 0.1 mile. I could then plug that nearby Street Address into RabbitEars's Search Engine (which uses latest info, but a very DIFFERENT algorithm, incl. Co-Channel/Adj-Channel Interference), results shown here: [Elev. ~ 692-ft from another website] https://www.rabbitears.info/search.php
> 
> BTW: It is way too soon to determine whether RabbitEars TVStudy calculations are providing BETTER or WORSE Results than TVFool [which I have personally VERIFIED versus user Reports]. I note that in most cases they are QUITE DIFFERENT. For many stations, R-E SigMargin values were very roughly 6 dB LOWER than TVFool's NM value. And then there are the Outliers, for example KYAN NM=28.1 in TVFool but SigMargin = -66.1 dB in R-E, KABC (Ch7) NM=28.0 dB but SigMargin = -16.2 dB, KCAL (Ch9) NM=21.0 but SigMargin = 13.0 dB, KTTV (Ch11) NM=20.9 dB but SigMargin = 4.6 dB, KCOP (Ch13) NM=19.7 dB but SigMargin = 3.2 dB.


Shucks, thanks for doing all that!

I did notice that the TV Fool report was pretty out of date. Between channels scans and research, I did figure out most of the new channel updates and noted them.

I also did do a Rabbit Ears report. And it did seem somewhat more up to date. I'll post it.

And sorry, I think you misunderstood -- I probably wasn't clear -- I wasn't asking if I could get in ALL the San Diego stations. I was just asking if I might be able to keep getting in the couple that I'm already getting rock solidly, and quite surprisingly, on my ANT751 -- NBC and KPBS. I imagine I probably could. I don't even really need them, since I get NBC in LA, and Empire PBS in LA, it's just a nice bonus. But I wasn't expecting to be able to pick up all the others down there.

But overall, considering I'm in the hills, I think the fact that I get in all the major networks in LA rock solidly with no issues on a little RCA yagi on the edge of my roof, is pretty fantastic.

So no complaints. I feel lucky.

I just wanted to see if I could also get those few that are inconsistent, especially the LA PBS channels.

I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the CM-4228HD earlier today. 

Worst case scenario, It doesn't work for me, and I'm out ~$30 for shipping both ways.

Curious to see how it does.


----------



## adream8

Code:







holl_ands said:


> BTW: It is way too soon to determine whether RabbitEars TVStudy calculations are providing BETTER or WORSE Results than TVFool [which I have personally VERIFIED versus user Reports]. I note that in most cases they are QUITE DIFFERENT. For many stations, R-E SigMargin values were very roughly 6 dB LOWER than TVFool's NM value. And then there are the Outliers, for example KYAN NM=28.1 in TVFool but SigMargin = -66.1 dB in R-E, KABC (Ch7) NM=28.0 dB but SigMargin = -16.2 dB, KCAL (Ch9) NM=21.0 but SigMargin = 13.0 dB, KTTV (Ch11) NM=20.9 dB but SigMargin = 4.6 dB, KCOP (Ch13) NM=19.7 dB but SigMargin = 3.2 dB.


In case you want to compare what the reports say, to what I'm actually getting with the ANT751E..

Here's my TV Fool report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=90387ffccccbc8

Here's my Rabbit Ears report:

https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=3790

Here's what I'm actually getting in consistently and well with virtually no dropouts:
()=RF

KCBS 2 (31)
KNBC 4 (36)
KTLA 5 (35) CW
KABC 7 (7)
KCAL 9 (9)
KTTV 11 (11) Fox (consistent co-channel interference from XHTJB (15) in Tijuana-140 miles!)
KCOP 13 (13) MyNetworkTV
KPBS 15 (19) PBS (San Diego)
KWHY 22 (4) Spanish
KVCR 24 (5) PBS Empire (think I'm getting this through alternate feed KJHP (18))
KPXN 30 (24) ion
KNSD 39 (17) NBC (San Diego)
KHIZ 39 (2) (virtual channel interference with KSND 39 (17) NBC San Diego)
KUAN 48 (17) Telemundo Spanish (San Diego)
XHDT 49 (?) Milenio Spanish
KVEA 52 (25) Telemundo Spanish
KDOC 56 (12) MeTv, Comet, Charge!
KRCA 62 (7) Estrella Spanish (shared with KABC 7)
KBEH 63 (4) Spanish Religious (shared with KWHY 22)
KILM 64 (24) ion Plus (shared with KPXN 30)

And here are the channels that only scan/come in sporadically:
()=RF

KFMB 8 (8) CBS (San Diego)
KGTV 10 (10) ABC (San Diego)
KSFV 14 (27) Shopping, Cambodian
KSCI 18 (18) Asian
KNLA 20 (32) Asian
KNET 25 (32) Shopping, Local Access
KSVF 27 (27) Shopping (shared with KSFV 14)
KCET 28 (28) PBS
KMEX 34 (34) Univision Spanish, Bounce, Justice
KTAV 35 (8) Spanish Religious
KTBN 40 (33) Religious
KXLA 44 (30) Asian
XHBJ 45 (?) Gala Spanish
KFTR 46 (29) getTV, Escape, Grit, Quest
KOCE 50 (18) PBS
KJLA 57 (30) Azteca, Spanish, Asian (shard with KXLA 44)
KLCS 58 (28) PBS (shared with KCET PBS 28)
KSWB 69 (26) Fox (San Diego)

And finally channels that I don't get at all:
()=RF

KHTV 6 (22) Shopping (shared with KAZA 54)
KFLA 8 (8) NewsNet, Country Network
KIIO 10 (10) Armenian
KVHD 26 (40) Shopping, Asian
KVMD 31 (23) Spanish, Asian
KAZA 54 (22) MeTV, Decades

I ran a 10' mast up from the roof line, and so far have tested the antenna from 10' down to 3' (the roof line) in 1' increments. I leave it at each spot for a day or two and keep rescanning at different times of the day to account for atmospheric changes. Interestingly, it seems to be doing better the lower I go. I haven't gotten any of the marginal channels above 5'. KMEX 34 started to come in at 5', and KCET 28 PBS started to come in at 4 feet. All the other marginal channels I listed start scanning at 3' (albeit all only sporadically and not usually all at the same time). Haven't tried 2'-0' above roof line yet. So ~3'-4' has been best so far. I seem to lose a bit of strength in the strong channel signals as I move down, but not enough to affect watchability, and the marginal ones come in better (occasionally) down lower.

Of all the marginal and missing channels listed above, I'm primarily only trying to get these:

KCET 28 (28) PBS
KMEX 34 (34) Univision Spanish, Bounce, Justice
KFTR 46 (29) getTV, Escape, Grit, Quest
KOCE 50 (18) PBS
KAZA 54 (22) MeTV, Decades
KLCS 58 (28) PBS (shared with KCET PBS 28)

So all in all, I'm doing pretty well with this little antenna so far, especially considering my terrain.

I'm hoping the CM-4228HD will grab 'em. We shall see.

UPDATE Aug 12 2019:

Got the RCA Preamplifier TVPRAMP1E in -- it seems to be strengthening the signal of most of the channels I already get in solidly, but not doing to much to get in marginal channels more consistently, as expected. In fact, I seem to be getting those marginal channels in less with the preamp connected, I'm guessing probably due to a combination of the increased signal strength of the strong channels drowning out the weaker ones and the slightly increased overall noise.

The preamp may serve as good insurance for weak signal days, and I do like it better so far than the LNA-200 (not noticing noise on VHF channels like I did with that one, and seems to be more effective on UHF), but looks like the bigger higher raw gain antenna is going to have to be the main strategy for getting in those PBS channels I want. I may end up better off with a bigger higher raw gain antenna and no preamp.The CM-4228HD arrives tomorrow. Will report on results. Learning quite a bit through a combination of online research and trial and error.


----------



## CHASLS2

rabbit73 said:


> WWBT is really just one TV channel that has sub channels. Your UHF channels are missing. My guess is that the preamp in the antenna is being overloaded.
> 
> Maybe, Channel Master STEALTHtenna50
> https://www.channelmaster.com/STEAL...door_TV_Antenna_p/cm-3010hd.htm#reviewSection
> 
> RCA ANT751E
> https://www.amazon.com/RCA-Compact-Outdoor-Antenna-ANT751E/dp/B0024R4B5C
> 
> Next step up
> Winegard HD7694P
> 
> If you are curious, you can try an omni, but I don't think it would do any better than what you have now.
> 
> You can try aiming it in any direction you would like, but normally the antenna should be aimed at the transmitter.
> 
> But, you are right about the trees, they block UHF signals more than VHF signals.
> 
> I can't give you any guarantee; too many factors involved, like the type of construction in the attic.


I have the RCA 751E and it picks up chans 45 miles away. I tried it inside the house and nothing.


----------



## rabbit73

CHASLS2 said:


> I have the RCA 751E and it picks up chans 45 miles away. I tried it inside the house and nothing.


That's possible if your house has aluminum siding or stucco which is applied to a metal mesh.

We used to live in an apartment that had an aluminum foil vapor barrier on the insulation in the outer walls; no signals at all. We were living in a Faraday cage.


----------



## CHASLS2

rabbit73 said:


> That's possible if your house has aluminum siding or stucco which is applied to a metal mesh.
> 
> We used to live in an apartment that had an aluminum foil vapor barrier on the insulation in the outer walls; no signals at all. We were living in a Faraday cage.


It does have metal siding on the roof edge and wire lath for the stucco above the block wall. Mine is not mounted very high but does fine as it is.


----------



## adream8

*RCA ANT751E vs Channel Master CM-4228HD*

Well.. sadly..

The CM-4228HD isn't doing any better than the ANT751E, at least not for my specific situation.

ANT751E (6-8dbi VHF/UHF)
CM-4228HD (7-9dBi VHF, 14-17dBi UHF)

It's quite astonishing how this little antenna pulls above its weight.

They're performing virtually the same, and the ANT751 seems to be even a bit stronger with VHF-hi.

Will keep the 4228 for a few days and mess around with it to see if it can do any better, and to compare them over a bit of time, but probably looks like I'm out $30 for shipping/return shipping. Took a gamble. Thought the higher gain might make a difference on those marginal channels I want.

So if the 4228 is about the best commercial 8-bay bowtie, I guess the next thing to try is a larger Yagi.

Maybe among these:

Winegard HD7694P (10-12dBi VHF-hi/12-14dBi UHV) (65")
https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=hd7694p

Stellar Labs 30-2365 (9-11dBi UHF) (50")
https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2365/long-range-uhf-hdtv-43-element/dp/72Y2541

Stellar Labs 30-2370 (12-14dBi UHF) (87")
https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2370/long-range-uhf-hdtv-91-element/dp/72Y2542

Yagi 18A (11-15dBi UHF) (79")
https://www.aerialsandtv.com/onlineaerials.html#Yagi18s

Suggestion on what to try next, if anything..?





adream8 said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In case you want to compare what the reports say, to what I'm actually getting with the ANT751E..
> 
> Here's my TV Fool report:
> 
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=90387ffccccbc8
> 
> Here's my Rabbit Ears report:
> 
> https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=3790
> 
> Here's what I'm actually getting in consistently and well with virtually no dropouts:
> ()=RF
> 
> KCBS 2 (31)
> KNBC 4 (36)
> KTLA 5 (35) CW
> KABC 7 (7)
> KCAL 9 (9)
> KTTV 11 (11) Fox (consistent co-channel interference from XHTJB (15) in Tijuana-140 miles!)
> KCOP 13 (13) MyNetworkTV
> KPBS 15 (19) PBS (San Diego)
> KWHY 22 (4) Spanish
> KVCR 24 (5) PBS Empire (think I'm getting this through alternate feed KJHP (18))
> KPXN 30 (24) ion
> KNSD 39 (17) NBC (San Diego)
> KHIZ 39 (2) (virtual channel interference with KSND 39 (17) NBC San Diego)
> KUAN 48 (17) Telemundo Spanish (San Diego)
> XHDT 49 (?) Milenio Spanish
> KVEA 52 (25) Telemundo Spanish
> KDOC 56 (12) MeTv, Comet, Charge!
> KRCA 62 (7) Estrella Spanish (shared with KABC 7)
> KBEH 63 (4) Spanish Religious (shared with KWHY 22)
> KILM 64 (24) ion Plus (shared with KPXN 30)
> 
> And here are the channels that only scan/come in sporadically:
> ()=RF
> 
> KFMB 8 (8) CBS (San Diego)
> KGTV 10 (10) ABC (San Diego)
> KSFV 14 (27) Shopping, Cambodian
> KSCI 18 (18) Asian
> KNLA 20 (32) Asian
> KNET 25 (32) Shopping, Local Access
> KSVF 27 (27) Shopping (shared with KSFV 14)
> KCET 28 (28) PBS
> KMEX 34 (34) Univision Spanish, Bounce, Justice
> KTAV 35 (8) Spanish Religious
> KTBN 40 (33) Religious
> KXLA 44 (30) Asian
> XHBJ 45 (?) Gala Spanish
> KFTR 46 (29) getTV, Escape, Grit, Quest
> KOCE 50 (18) PBS
> KJLA 57 (30) Azteca, Spanish, Asian (shard with KXLA 44)
> KLCS 58 (28) PBS (shared with KCET PBS 28)
> KSWB 69 (26) Fox (San Diego)
> 
> And finally channels that I don't get at all:
> ()=RF
> 
> KHTV 6 (22) Shopping (shared with KAZA 54)
> KFLA 8 (8) NewsNet, Country Network
> KIIO 10 (10) Armenian
> KVHD 26 (40) Shopping, Asian
> KVMD 31 (23) Spanish, Asian
> KAZA 54 (22) MeTV, Decades
> 
> I ran a 10' mast up from the roof line, and so far have tested the antenna from 10' down to 3' (the roof line) in 1' increments. I leave it at each spot for a day or two and keep rescanning at different times of the day to account for atmospheric changes. Interestingly, it seems to be doing better the lower I go. I haven't gotten any of the marginal channels above 5'. KMEX 34 started to come in at 5', and KCET 28 PBS started to come in at 4 feet. All the other marginal channels I listed start scanning at 3' (albeit all only sporadically and not usually all at the same time). Haven't tried 2'-0' above roof line yet. So ~3'-4' has been best so far. I seem to lose a bit of strength in the strong channel signals as I move down, but not enough to affect watchability, and the marginal ones come in better (occasionally) down lower.
> 
> Of all the marginal and missing channels listed above, I'm primarily only trying to get these:
> 
> KCET 28 (28) PBS
> KMEX 34 (34) Univision Spanish, Bounce, Justice
> KFTR 46 (29) getTV, Escape, Grit, Quest
> KOCE 50 (18) PBS
> KAZA 54 (22) MeTV, Decades
> KLCS 58 (28) PBS (shared with KCET PBS 28)
> 
> So all in all, I'm doing pretty well with this little antenna so far, especially considering my terrain.
> 
> I'm hoping the CM-4228HD will grab 'em. We shall see.
> 
> UPDATE Aug 12 2019:
> 
> Got the RCA Preamplifier TVPRAMP1E in -- it seems to be strengthening the signal of most of the channels I already get in solidly, but not doing to much to get in marginal channels more consistently, as expected. In fact, I seem to be getting those marginal channels in less with the preamp connected, I'm guessing probably due to a combination of the increased signal strength of the strong channels drowning out the weaker ones and the slightly increased overall noise.
> 
> The preamp may serve as good insurance for weak signal days, and I do like it better so far than the LNA-200 (not noticing noise on VHF channels like I did with that one, and seems to be more effective on UHF), but looks like the bigger higher raw gain antenna is going to have to be the main strategy for getting in those PBS channels I want. I may end up better off with a bigger higher raw gain antenna and no preamp.The CM-4228HD arrives tomorrow. Will report on results. Learning quite a bit through a combination of online research and trial and error.


----------



## johnny antenna

adream8 said:


> Well.. sadly..
> 
> The CM-4228HD isn't doing any better than the ANT751E, at least not for my specific situation.
> 
> ANT751E (6-8dbi VHF/UHF)
> CM-4228HD (7-9dBi VHF, 14-17dBi UHF)
> 
> It's quite astonishing how this little antenna pulls above its weight.
> 
> They're performing virtually the same, and the ANT751 seems to be even a bit stronger with VHF-hi.
> 
> Will keep the 4228 for a few days and mess around with it to see if it can do any better, and to compare them over a bit of time, but probably looks like I'm out $30 for shipping/return shipping. Took a gamble. Thought the higher gain might make a difference on those marginal channels I want.
> 
> So if the 4228 is about the best commercial 8-bay bowtie, I guess the next thing to try is a larger Yagi.
> 
> Maybe among these:
> 
> Winegard HD7694P (10-12dBi VHF-hi/12-14dBi UHV) (65")
> https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=hd7694p
> 
> Stellar Labs 30-2365 (9-11dBi UHF) (50")
> https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2365/long-range-uhf-hdtv-43-element/dp/72Y2541
> 
> Stellar Labs 30-2370 (12-14dBi UHF) (87")
> https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2370/long-range-uhf-hdtv-91-element/dp/72Y2542
> 
> Yagi 18A (11-15dBi UHF) (79")
> https://www.aerialsandtv.com/onlineaerials.html#Yagi18s
> 
> Suggestion on what to try next, if anything..?



I would try to get the 8 bay higher if possible. My opinion--The bay type antennas need to be mounted higher than a yagi or corner reflector antenna due to their center being lower.


----------



## adream8

johnny antenna said:


> I would try to get the 8 bay higher if possible. My opinion--The bay type antennas need to be mounted higher than a yagi or corner reflector antenna due to their center being lower.


Thanks, johnny antenna. Appreciate the input. 

I'm running a simple 10' 1.25" EMT tube mast up from the edge of the roof. I currently have the Yagi @ 3', and the bowtie 3' higher @ 6-9'. It could go up about a foot higher, but I'm not sure it will make a difference.

I tested the Yagi in 1' increments starting @10' and working my way down. Without question, it does better lower. It starts picking up the most channels @ ~ 4' and lower. 

I'm in a slight valley with a mountain ridge about 300 yards away, so maybe it works better lower because it's picking up a bounce down there somewhere. I don't have LOS to the tower cluster on Mt. Wilson. Most channels are 1-ridge.

Both antennas are pointed at the optimal 64* (after much trial and error with variation). 

Without a preamp connected, and at their current heights, both antennas are getting the same solid channels. And both get in those marginal channels sometimes. Seems to vary with the time of day (temp, atmosphere, etc).

Before I return the 8-bay, I will remove the Yagi and try the bowtie down low where the Yagi is, to see if it does better down there. I have a feeling it will. The questions is, better than the Yagi, or about the same?

I will, of course also try all configurations with the RCA preamp as well, to see what, if any difference it makes. Based on what I've experienced so far, I expect it to strengthen signals of channels I'm already getting, but not necessary pick up more, and possibly even block some weak channels due to the noise increase.

I'm running a high quality 100' solid copper quad shield RG6 coax, so hopefully I'm not losing much more than a few dBd without the preamp. I seem to do better without it, in general. Over the Yagi I get those marginal channels occasionally without it, but with it on, not at all.


----------



## johnny antenna

adream8 said:


> ...
> 
> I'm in a slight valley with a mountain ridge about 300 yards away, so maybe it works better lower because it's picking up a bounce down there somewhere. I don't have LOS to the tower cluster on Mt. Wilson. Most channels are 1-ridge.


Might try tilting your yagi up to the horizon and see if it helps. I'm not sure if your RCA antenna has a tilting bracket. My long corner reflector antennas have a tilting bracket that helps me aim over nearby mountains.


----------



## adream8

johnny antenna said:


> Might try tilting your yagi up to the horizon and see if it helps. I'm not sure if your RCA antenna has a tilting bracket. My long corner reflector antennas have a tilting bracket that helps me aim over nearby mountains.


Okay, will give that a try.

Which antenna do you have? One of the 91-element type?

Will do search online for a tilting bracket.

If anyone knows of a good source for one, please let me know.

(The ANT751E did come with an adjustable mounting arm, so I may be able to rig that, but a simple mast tilting bracket would probably be easier and more stable at this point.)


----------



## Calaveras

johnny antenna said:


> Might try tilting your yagi up to the horizon and see if it helps. I'm not sure if your RCA antenna has a tilting bracket. My long corner reflector antennas have a tilting bracket that helps me aim over nearby mountains.


I don't know why this idea of tilting an antenna persists. It can't possibly do anything to increase the strength of the signal. The 3 dB beamwidth of a high gain antenna like the XG91 is about +/- 15 degrees. Even the 1 dB beamwidth is around +/- 10 degrees. Tilting the antenna 1 or 2 degrees won't make any difference in the signal strength. If you don't believe me move the antenna 1 or 2 degrees in azimuth and see what happens. Nothing. Diffraction of signals over ridges of more than 1-2 degrees doesn't work in most cases. In order to make any difference pointing an antenna up it would need to be at least 15 degrees. No signal is going to diffract down 15 degrees. I have 3 stations on UHF 48 miles away over a 5.6 degree ridge. I can see them on my spectrum analyzer but they are far too weak to ever decode.


----------



## Calaveras

adream8 said:


> I will, of course also try all configurations with the RCA preamp as well, to see what, if any difference it makes. Based on what I've experienced so far, I expect it to strengthen signals of channels I'm already getting, but not necessary pick up more, and possibly even block some weak channels due to the noise increase.



Your RabbitEars report shows you have 3 stations with noise margins over 60 dB. Those are extremely strong signals and the RCA preamp certainly will be overloaded by those stations. This is why the preamp isn't helping with your weaker stations. 

Preamps do not block signals because they add noise. They add noise equal to the noise figure but they overcome all the loss in the coax, splitter and TV noise figure if the proper preamp is selected. In many cases a preamp can increase the signal-to-noise by 10 dB despite increasing the noise at the antenna terminals by 2-3 dB.


----------



## johnny antenna

Calaveras said:


> I don't know why this idea of tilting an antenna persists. It can't possibly do anything to increase the strength of the signal. The 3 dB beamwidth of a high gain antenna like the XG91 is about +/- 15 degrees. Even the 1 dB beamwidth is around +/- 10 degrees. Tilting the antenna 1 or 2 degrees won't make any difference in the signal strength. If you don't believe me move the antenna 1 or 2 degrees in azimuth and see what happens. Nothing. Diffraction of signals over ridges of more than 1-2 degrees doesn't work in most cases. In order to make any difference pointing an antenna up it would need to be at least 15 degrees. No signal is going to diffract down 15 degrees. I have 3 stations on UHF 48 miles away over a 5.6 degree ridge. I can see them on my spectrum analyzer but they are far too weak to ever decode.



Tilting is the only way I can get stations over 60 miles on my Fracarro corner reflector I have indoors. I'm in the shadow of a 2200' mountain and I'm at 1200'. I do have a LPDA that likes to be perfectly flat however but it's only good out to ~40 miles.


----------



## adream8

Calaveras said:


> I don't know why this idea of tilting an antenna persists. It can't possibly do anything to increase the strength of the signal. The 3 dB beamwidth of a high gain antenna like the XG91 is about +/- 15 degrees. Even the 1 dB beamwidth is around +/- 10 degrees. Tilting the antenna 1 or 2 degrees won't make any difference in the signal strength. If you don't believe me move the antenna 1 or 2 degrees in azimuth and see what happens. Nothing. Diffraction of signals over ridges of more than 1-2 degrees doesn't work in most cases. In order to make any difference pointing an antenna up it would need to be at least 15 degrees. No signal is going to diffract down 15 degrees. I have 3 stations on UHF 48 miles away over a 5.6 degree ridge. I can see them on my spectrum analyzer but they are far too weak to ever decode.


Okay, got it.

I'm new to this, so I'm learning as I go.

Interesting. Have a mountain ridge about 300 yards away, which is about a good 20-30 degrees higher than me. I'm pointed right at it, towards Mt. Wilson, where all the towers are clustered, which is about 20 miles away, and I'm getting most of the channels. But Mt. Wilson is high relative to me (~5700ft vs ~ 700ft), so I 'm sure that's decreasing the diffraction angle. And that ridge ~300 yards away is maybe @ ~800ft (about 100ft higher than me).

I wasn't really expecting tilting the antenna upward toward the top of the ridge to increase signal strength. But it occurs to me that there might be some chance it could help me find a better sweet spot if fading or multipath is an issue for those marginal channels I'm trying to get in more consistently. Since horizontal adjustment seems to have helped find a balance with the channels I want, it seems like vertical adjustment might as well, if only because I'm facing right into a big hill, and I'm not exactly sure where the signal might be bouncing because of it. Of course, I do realize my thinking may be flawed.

Since I am in a bit of a valley, I'm pretty sure I'm getting a bounce off the hill I'm pointed at (there are some big houses with flat sidewalls), because I'm getting in several San Diego (and even 1 Tijuana!) channels (from 120-140 miles away!) really solidly @ ~80 degrees to the right of where the antenna is pointed. And they're even causing co-channel interference with a few of my Local LA channels. In that direction, there is only basin (LOS) all the way to San Diego, so either both antennas are picking it up directly at ~80 degrees, or the signal is bouncing off the hill, and coming head on into the antenna.

Since I know you know your stuff, I'd appreciate if at your leisure you'd go back and read my posts and reports and let me know what you think I should try.

Would love to hear.

Thanks!


----------



## adream8

Calaveras said:


> I don't know why this idea of tilting an antenna persists. It can't possibly do anything to increase the strength of the signal. The 3 dB beamwidth of a high gain antenna like the XG91 is about +/- 15 degrees. Even the 1 dB beamwidth is around +/- 10 degrees. Tilting the antenna 1 or 2 degrees won't make any difference in the signal strength. If you don't believe me move the antenna 1 or 2 degrees in azimuth and see what happens. Nothing. Diffraction of signals over ridges of more than 1-2 degrees doesn't work in most cases. In order to make any difference pointing an antenna up it would need to be at least 15 degrees. No signal is going to diffract down 15 degrees. I have 3 stations on UHF 48 miles away over a 5.6 degree ridge. I can see them on my spectrum analyzer but they are far too weak to ever decode.


Is this not true:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/197084-yagi-vs-bowtie-antennas.html#post1599437

And therefore couldn't it vertical tilt (up or down) be relevant to my situations?


----------



## adream8

Calaveras said:


> Your RabbitEars report shows you have 3 stations with noise margins over 60 dB. Those are extremely strong signals and the RCA preamp certainly will be overloaded by those stations. This is why the preamp isn't helping with your weaker stations.
> 
> Preamps do not block signals because they add noise. They add noise equal to the noise figure but they overcome all the loss in the coax, splitter and TV noise figure if the proper preamp is selected. In many cases a preamp can increase the signal-to-noise by 10 dB despite increasing the noise at the antenna terminals by 2-3 dB.


Understood. Poor choice of wording. I meant "effectively" blocking. As in the end result. But I get your point.

Also, I haven't found either of the reports to be particularly accurate in terms of real world results at my location.

For example, of the 3 strong signal stations you mentioned:
()=RF channel

KTLA 5 (35) CW - comes in solidly with a low to moderate signal strength

KTTV 11 (11) Fox - moderate signal strength, but I get consistent virtual co-channel interference from XHTJB (15) in Tijuana at an 80* angle to the right of the antenna from over 140 miles away. Halt the time my tuner scans KTTV, the other half it scan XHTJB for virtual channel 11.

KCOP 13 (13) MyNetworkTV - weak to moderate signal. I can get it consistently, barely. But I have to be pointed just a couple degrees to the left of Mt. Wilson, otherwise no dice. Might be a reflection. 

I don't get more than about a 70-80% signal reading on any of these with the preamplifier connected. So I'm not sure they're causing overload. Though I know my tuner's signal meter may not necessarily be accurate in terms of actual signal strength and potential overload.

A 3 or 6 dBb attenuator, perhaps?


----------



## Calaveras

adream8 said:


> Is this not true:
> 
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/197084-yagi-vs-bowtie-antennas.html#post1599437
> 
> And therefore couldn't it vertical tilt (up or down) be relevant to my situations?



Nulling out an interfering signal is different from making the main signal stronger. It's possible in some special situations to be able to place an interfering signal (whether it be a multipath signal or a co-channel signal) in an antenna null. In most cases it's very hard to know enough to be able to do it. You need to know where the antenna nulls are and you need to know from what direction the interfering signal is coming from. Almost no one knows this.

I've had two situations when I knew enough to be able to null out an interfering signal.

At my previous location I had a very strong station on channel 18 and a much weaker station on channel 19. The beam headings were only 16 degrees apart. Using a pair of XG91's, I was able to space the antennas so that I could place the strong station in the 1st pattern null which allowed reception of the weaker station.

Here at my new location I have a co-channel problem. The station I want is 15 dB weaker compared to another station I don't want. The one I want is 335 degrees azimuth and the stronger unwanted station is at 196 degrees. If I off point the antenna to 340 degrees I'm able to receive the weaker station at 335 deg by placing the 196 deg station in a deep null off the back of the antenna. The station at 335 deg shows no change in signal strength by off pointing 5 degrees.

In both situations I knew enough about the problem preventing reception to engineer a solution. In almost every case the reason for non-reception is unknown so engineering a solution is not possible. You can try all sorts of things and perhaps stumble upon something that works but you're more likely to never figure it out.


----------



## Calaveras

adream8 said:


> KTTV 11 (11) Fox - moderate signal strength, but I get consistent virtual co-channel interference from XHTJB (15) in Tijuana at an 80* angle to the right of the antenna from over 140 miles away. Halt the time my tuner scans KTTV, the other half it scan XHTJB for virtual channel 11.



Do I understand you correctly that KTTV use virtual channel 11 and is on RF 11 and XHTJB uses virtual channel 11 and is on RF 15? If I have it correct this is not a co-channel problem. Your TV has a software bug. This is not uncommon. My Sony is unable to handle two VCs with the same RF channel but handles two stations with the same VC and different RF channels fine. It should be able to do both.


----------



## adream8

Calaveras said:


> Nulling out an interfering signal is different from making the main signal stronger. It's possible in some special situations to be able to place an interfering signal (whether it be a multipath signal or a co-channel signal) in an antenna null. In most cases it's very hard to know enough to be able to do it. You need to know where the antenna nulls are and you need to know from what direction the interfering signal is coming from. Almost no one knows this.
> 
> I've had two situations when I knew enough to be able to null out an interfering signal.
> 
> At my previous location I had a very strong station on channel 18 and a much weaker station on channel 19. The beam headings were only 16 degrees apart. Using a pair of XG91's, I was able to space the antennas so that I could place the strong station in the 1st pattern null which allowed reception of the weaker station.
> 
> Here at my new location I have a co-channel problem. The station I want is 15 dB weaker compared to another station I don't want. The one I want is 335 degrees azimuth and the stronger unwanted station is at 196 degrees. If I off point the antenna to 340 degrees I'm able to receive the weaker station at 335 deg by placing the 196 deg station in a deep null off the back of the antenna. The station at 335 deg shows no change in signal strength by off pointing 5 degrees.
> 
> In both situations I knew enough about the problem preventing reception to engineer a solution. In almost every case the reason for non-reception is unknown so engineering a solution is not possible. You can try all sorts of things and perhaps stumble upon something that works but you're more likely to never figure it out.


Okeydoke. I get it.

Then I'll probably just keep trying different antennas at varying heights between 0' -10' above my roof line, with some variation in horizontal angle until I get the best possible reception combination of the channels I want, and let it rest.

I probably won't go further than a vertical UHF/VHF 2 antenna stack on the same mast.

I'm mostly happy that I'm getting what I'm getting. I just wanted to see if I could tweak to get those few remain channels I want that only come in occasionally. (See previous posts.)


----------



## adream8

Calaveras said:


> Do I understand you correctly that KTTV use virtual channel 11 and is on RF 11 and XHTJB uses virtual channel 11 and is on RF 15? If I have it correct this is not a co-channel problem. Your TV has a software bug. This is not uncommon. My Sony is unable to handle two VCs with the same RF channel but handles two stations with the same VC and different RF channels fine. It should be able to do both.


Correct. I have the newer version dual tuner black box AirTV.

I'm experiencing other software issue with it that I've already reported to their engineers. So it wouldn't surprise me if this is another.

Guess it's time to open another ticket. 🙇🏻*♂

Mine's the opposite -- can handle two virtual with the same RF, but apparently can't handle stations with the same VC coming from different RFs. It either chooses one over the other each time I scan.

Examples:

KTTV 11 (11) Fox
XHTJB 11 (15) Tijuana

KNSD 39 (17) NBC (San Diego)
KHIZ 39 (2) (virtual channel interference with KSND 39 (17) NBC San Diego)

Where there are no overlapping sub-channels, I scan the individual sub-channels. Where there is overlap, the tuner closes one over the other.

i.e. - I scan 39.1 & 39.2 from NBC San Diego, but since there is no 39.3 on up from that signal, I also scan 39.3-39.7 from KHIZ here in LA, where there are no overlapping sub-channels. So I lose KHIZ 39.1 & 39.2 to NBC San Diego, which I assume is the stronger (or first read) signal.


----------



## Steve347

*Bi-Directional UHF (probably) Bow Tie - Optimized For Post Repack?*

Looking for suggestions for a suitable antenna that I could buy and possibly hack if needed (preferably) or possibly build. I am not in a particular hurry as I won't be crawling around the attic until it cools off around here!

Thanks,
Steve


----------



## Calaveras

johnny antenna said:


> Tilting is the only way I can get stations over 60 miles on my Fracarro corner reflector I have indoors. I'm in the shadow of a 2200' mountain and I'm at 1200'. I do have a LPDA that likes to be perfectly flat however but it's only good out to ~40 miles.



There are so many reflections indoors that you have no idea what is going on. The most likely thing is the exact position that your antenna is in just happens to null out the reflections enough to allow decoding of the stations. Tilting it up is not increasing the signal strength. Your XG91 clone and your LPDA have different patterns which makes my point that the one that works in a certain position is because its off axis rejection just happens to be right for you. 

Antennas are not rated in miles. I'm using large homemade LPDAs here to receive stations 77 miles away. 37 element LPDA picture attached.


----------



## Calaveras

adream8 said:


> Okay, got it.
> 
> I'm new to this, so I'm learning as I go.
> 
> Interesting. Have a mountain ridge about 300 yards away, which is about a good 20-30 degrees higher than me. I'm pointed right at it, towards Mt. Wilson, where all the towers are clustered, which is about 20 miles away, and I'm getting most of the channels. But Mt. Wilson is high relative to me (~5700ft vs ~ 700ft), so I 'm sure that's decreasing the diffraction angle. And that ridge ~300 yards away is maybe @ ~800ft (about 100ft higher than me).
> 
> I wasn't really expecting tilting the antenna upward toward the top of the ridge to increase signal strength. But it occurs to me that there might be some chance it could help me find a better sweet spot if fading or multipath is an issue for those marginal channels I'm trying to get in more consistently. Since horizontal adjustment seems to have helped find a balance with the channels I want, it seems like vertical adjustment might as well, if only because I'm facing right into a big hill, and I'm not exactly sure where the signal might be bouncing because of it. Of course, I do realize my thinking may be flawed.
> 
> Since I am in a bit of a valley, I'm pretty sure I'm getting a bounce off the hill I'm pointed at (there are some big houses with flat sidewalls), because I'm getting in several San Diego (and even 1 Tijuana!) channels (from 120-140 miles away!) really solidly @ ~80 degrees to the right of where the antenna is pointed. And they're even causing co-channel interference with a few of my Local LA channels. In that direction, there is only basin (LOS) all the way to San Diego, so either both antennas are picking it up directly at ~80 degrees, or the signal is bouncing off the hill, and coming head on into the antenna.
> 
> Since I know you know your stuff, I'd appreciate if at your leisure you'd go back and read my posts and reports and let me know what you think I should try.
> 
> Would love to hear.
> 
> Thanks!



Okay, here are the numbers I'm going to use. Mt Wilson is 5700' and 20 miles from the 700' ridge you're looking into. Mt. Wilson is LOS to the top of that ridge. You are 100' below the ridge and 900' away. That makes your angle to the ridge top 6.3 degrees. Everyone way overestimates how high a ridge is.  Mt. Wilson is looking down 2.7 degrees to your ridge. That'll make the diffraction angle 3.6 degrees. That's still a big number but the transmitters are going to be very strong at 20 miles plus you're not far from the ridge. The ridge is still causing a lot of attenuation.

The TV allocations are not designed for people who can receive two markets, especially with the repack.

All the usual rules apply. You need to determine if there are any really strong stations to overload a preamp. Rabbitears says yes. You seem to say no. If you're looking through vegetation (even on the ridge top) it's going to impact signals. There's not much you can do about it. In your case the higher you can get your antenna the better because it'll reduce the diffraction angle. You're so close to the ridge that it'll make a difference. It doesn't for most people. Clearing the local ground clutter is more important for them. That's the case for me. High gain antennas and a preamp if you can use it. You're in a poor location and it may not be possible receive all the stations. You have to accept that.

Once in awhile it's possible to receive a station off a reflection. Usually the SNR is low. Most often reflections don't work because there are multiple reflections causing severe multipath.

Just for comparison, attached is a picture showing what my antennas see. The KWBA ridge is 1.5 degrees. KHRR (81 miles) has no visible ridge and looks through miles of vegetation. The signal is a mess and highly unstable. Mt. Bigelow (77 miles) has most of my stations. The ridge the signals diffracts over is 0.5 degrees and 34 miles away.


----------



## Calaveras

adream8 said:


> I don't get more than about a 70-80% signal reading on any of these with the preamplifier connected. So I'm not sure they're causing overload. Though I know my tuner's signal meter may not necessarily be accurate in terms of actual signal strength and potential overload.
> 
> A 3 or 6 dBb attenuator, perhaps?



There's little point in using a preamp and then putting an attenuator in front of it.


----------



## adream8

Calaveras said:


> Okay, here are the numbers I'm going to use. Mt Wilson is 5700' and 20 miles from the 700' ridge you're looking into. Mt. Wilson is LOS to the top of that ridge. You are 100' below the ridge and 900' away. That makes your angle to the ridge top 6.3 degrees. Everyone way overestimates how high a ridge is.  Mt. Wilson is looking down 2.7 degrees to your ridge. That'll make the diffraction angle 3.6 degrees. That's still a big number but the transmitters are going to be very strong at 20 miles plus you're not far from the ridge. The ridge is still causing a lot of attenuation.
> 
> The TV allocations are not designed for people who can receive two markets, especially with the repack.
> 
> All the usual rules apply. You need to determine if there are any really strong stations to overload a preamp. Rabbitears says yes. You seem to say no. If you're looking through vegetation (even on the ridge top) it's going to impact signals. There's not much you can do about it. In your case the higher you can get your antenna the better because it'll reduce the diffraction angle. You're so close to the ridge that'll it make a difference. It doesn't for most people. Clearing the local ground clutter is more important for them. That's the case for me. High gain antennas and a preamp if you can use it. You're in a poor location and it may not be possible receive all the stations. You have to accept that.
> 
> Once in awhile it's possible to receive a station off a reflection. Usually the SNR is low. Most often reflections don't work because there are multiple reflections causing severe multipath.
> 
> Just for comparison, attached is a picture showing what my antennas see. The KWBA ridge is 1.5 degrees. KHRR has no visible ridge and looks through miles of vegetation. The signal is a mess and highly unstable. Mt. Bigelow (77 miles) has most of my stations. The ridge the signals diffracts over is 0.5 degrees and 34 miles away.



Good stuff! Thank you.

Yes, I do understand and accept that I may not be able to get in everything I want. I'm actually pretty happy I'm getting as much as I am in my location.

What's propelling me to tinker is the fact that the few remaining channels I want do come in sporadically.. so I just wanted to see what I could do to lock them in, or at least get them in more often.

These are really the only ones that go in and out that I'd like:

KCET 28 (28) PBS
KMEX 34 (34) Univision Spanish, Bounce, Justice
KFTR 46 (29) getTV, Escape, Grit, Quest
KOCE 50 (18) PBS
KLCS 58 (28) PBS (shared with KCET PBS 28)

And am getting 1 LA PBS and 1 PBS from San Diego, so all considered I'm doing really well. 

Good math!

Yes, I do think the angle to the ridge is steeper than that. 

I was just eyeballing, so I think my distances might be off. I'll take a closer look..

Okay.. the antenna altitude on my roofline is at 730'.

The ridge is actually about 580' from me. (Wow, I was pretty off on that one.)

I'm going to stick with the ridge elevation of ~100' higher than my antenna (I counted ~10 stories), so 830'.

So that put's the ridge at about a 10-12* angle, which seems closer to accurate to me. 

Here are photos from my roof edge where my 2 "experiment" antennas are mounted. They are currently pointed directly at Mt. Wilson (64* true).

The basin over to the right is where my San Diego signals are coming from ~75 degrees left of aim (@139* true).

I understand your point about getting the antennas high, but my experimentation with a 10' mast has shown that I do significantly better with them down lower next to the roof line.

I started with the Yagi at 10' and moved it down in 1' increments. It only starts getting the marginal channels @ 3'. So maybe there's more multi-path going on up higher?

I currently have the Yagi @ 3' and the 8-bay @ 6'-9'. They're performing roughly the same at those positions with no preamp.

I haven't yet tried the 8-bay down lower where the Yagi currently is. Plan on giving it a try.


----------



## richart

adream8 said:


> Good stuff! Thank you.
> 
> 
> Here's a photo from my roof edge where my 2 "experiment" antennas are mounted. They are currently pointed directly at Mt. Wilson (64* true).


adream8, I see your problem now...your antenna is upside down.


----------



## hdtvluvr

richart said:


> adream8, I see your problem now...your antenna is upside down.


Thats interesting, I thought he was at the bottom of the world trying to get US stations.


----------



## Calaveras

adream8 said:


> I started with the Yagi at 10' and moved it down in 1' increments. It only starts getting the marginal channels @ 3'. So maybe there's more multi-path going on up higher?



A friend lives in a location that's similar to yours except worse. TV Fool says the signals should be strong enough to receive but he can't receive any of them. Turns out that there are reflections off of other hills that are much stronger than the direct path signal. No antenna has a good enough pattern to reject all the reflections enough to receive the direct path signal. None of the prediction programs can take reflections into account.

I'd be willing to bet that your signals get stronger as you raise the antenna but higher may be more favorable for reflections too. If you got high enough the direct path signals would overcome the reflections but that could well be impossibly high. 

If you haven't tried it, I'd take a chance on an XG91. It has the best pattern of any commercial antenna I know of. No guarantees but if any antenna will do it, the XG91 will. The XG91 is UHF only. You'd need a separate high VHF antenna.


----------



## adream8

richart said:


> adream8, I see your problem now...your antenna is upside down.


Haha! DOH! I swear they were oriented when uploaded them. 🤦🏻*♂ Edit time.


----------



## johnny antenna

Calaveras said:


> A friend lives in a location that's similar to yours except worse. TV Fool says the signals should be strong enough to receive but he can't receive any of them. Turns out that there are reflections off of other hills that are much stronger than the direct path signal. No antenna has a good enough pattern to reject all the reflections enough to receive the direct path signal. None of the prediction programs can take reflections into account.
> 
> I'd be willing to bet that your signals get stronger as you raise the antenna but higher may be more favorable for reflections too. If you got high enough the direct path signals would overcome the reflections but that could well be impossibly high.
> 
> If you haven't tried it, I'd take a chance on an XG91. It has the best pattern of any commercial antenna I know of. No guarantees but if any antenna will do it, the XG91 will. The XG91 is UHF only. You'd need a separate high VHF antenna.


I vote for corner a reflector antenna too. Check out Fracarro BLU920F if you want something not made in China. https://www.summitsource.com/Fracar...ntenna-with-FREE-50-FT-Coax-Cable-P14196.aspx


----------



## adream8

hdtvluvr said:


> Thats interesting, I thought he was at the bottom of the world trying to get US stations.


Hmm.. the orientation tags seem to be messed up.

I had to reorient and save the photos multiple times to get them to upload upright.

Think I finally got it.

🙃


----------



## adream8

Calaveras said:


> A friend lives in a location that's similar to yours except worse. TV Fool says the signals should be strong enough to receive but he can't receive any of them. Turns out that there are reflections off of other hills that are much stronger than the direct path signal. No antenna has a good enough pattern to reject all the reflections enough to receive the direct path signal. None of the prediction programs can take reflections into account.
> 
> I'd be willing to bet that your signals get stronger as you raise the antenna but higher may be more favorable for reflections too. If you got high enough the direct path signals would overcome the reflections but that could well be impossibly high.
> 
> If you haven't tried it, I'd take a chance on an XG91. It has the best pattern of any commercial antenna I know of. No guarantees but if any antenna will do it, the XG91 will. The XG91 is UHF only. You'd need a separate high VHF antenna.


This assessment intuitively strikes me as accurate. 

The signals seem a bit weaker overall down lower, though not enough to lose channels. But down lower the reflections may also be reduced, so I get better results overall.

I'm going to play around with the 8-bay down lower first, but then I will probably try a 91 element Yagi.

Would all of these work equally well?

Stellar Labs 30-2370 ($40 shipped)
https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2370/long-range-uhf-hdtv-91-element/dp/72Y2542

Extreme Signal HDB91X ($55 shipped)
https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=hdb91x

Antenna's Direct 91XG ($70 shipped)
https://www.amazon.com/Directional-UHF-HDTV-Antenna-Range/dp/B000LZ9EXI

The 30-2370 seems a bargain if it works as well as the 91XG.

I also like this Yagi18A imported from GB that is optimized for the repack frequency range:

Yagi 18A ($48 shipped)
https://www.aerialsandtv.com/onlineaerials.html#Yagi18s


----------



## old tv guy

Since signals reflect off hills, buildings, water tanks, etc.
Have you ever tried pointing the antenna in the opposite direction?
I have had to do this on installs in mountainous areas with no line of sight path.
Or if you have access to the top of that ridge that's blocking your line of sight, you can always
try using a passive repeater array.
Two Stellar labs HDTV91s with one pointed at Mt Wilson and the other pointed at your house for example.
The HDTV91 (XG91 copy)is only $20 each right now from Newark.com


----------



## rabbit73

adream8 said:


> Hmm.. the orientation tags seem to be messed up.
> 
> I had to reorient and save the photos multiple times to get them to upload upright.
> 
> Think I finally got it.
> 
> 🙃


 It happens, either upside down or on its side and can be difficult to correct. If the photo was taken using a phone it can often be edited in the phone, otherwise in your computer.

https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/18...rting-uhf-yagi-vhf-antenna-3.html#post3084283

https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/18...rting-uhf-yagi-vhf-antenna-4.html#post3084347


Dr.Dave said:


> @*lenlab* Here's what I did on Windows 10. Right-clicking on a file and showing detailed properties doesn't show the orientation, so I changed the folder settings where I had my picture to view details and display orientation. This wasn't absolutely necessary, but makes it easy to see what's happening. My portrait photos say "rotate 270 degrees."
> 
> 1. Open a photo in "Photos" (the default for Windows 10)
> 2. Don't choose rotate there, since that won't change the file. Click "Edit."
> 3. Click "Crop and Rotate."
> 4. Click Rotate 4 times until the pic is upright again and click "Done."
> 5. Click "Save a Copy." The orientation for the new file says "normal" in Windows Explorer.
> 
> Some more-sophisticated software may handle the orientation tag differently.


https://www.google.com/search?sourc......6..0i308i154.YvtTG4OdO0E#spf=1566060879778

Looks like you got it; the thumbnails in your original post are right side up.


----------



## adream8

old tv guy said:


> Since signals reflect off hills, buildings, water tanks, etc.
> Have you ever tried pointing the antenna in the opposite direction?
> I have had to do this on installs in mountainous areas with no line of sight path.
> Or if you have access to the top of that ridge that's blocking your line of sight, you can always
> try using a passive repeater array.
> Two Stellar labs HDTV91s with one pointed at Mt Wilson and the other pointed at your house for example.
> The HDTV91 (XG91 copy)is only $20 each right now from Newark.com


Yeah, that 30-2370 seem like a good deal.

I think it's private property, so I think the repeater is not an option, but I like the idea. 

And it did occur to me to point the antenna opposite. There is a natural hill behind me without structures, so I don't know if it will work, but I'll give it a shot. Nothing to lose.

Thanks!


----------



## Calaveras

This post is to illustrate the effects of diffraction over a ridge.

The first image is a photo of the ridge that XHNSS Nogales has to diffract over to get here. The angle is 5.7 degrees.
The second image is taken from TV Fool and shows the terrain path between XHNSS and here. I added the red line for the signal path
The third image is a telephoto of the ridge that KUAT and KOLD has to diffract over to get here. The angle is 0.5 degrees.
The fourth image is taken from TV Fool and shows the terrain path between KOLD (same as KUAT) and here. I added the red line for the signal path.
The fifth image is a composite spectrum analyzer capture of KUAT, XHNSS and KOLD, RF channels 30-32. I pointed the antenna at XHNSS to capture its signal and then copied and pasted it into the KUAT/KOLD image. Any signal below the red line is too weak to decode. The ridge is attenuating XHNSS by about 30 dB more than the KOLD ridge making it impossible to receive.


----------



## Calaveras

old tv guy said:


> Since signals reflect off hills, buildings, water tanks, etc.
> Have you ever tried pointing the antenna in the opposite direction?
> I have had to do this on installs in mountainous areas with no line of sight path.


The problem with this is that in most cases it doesn't work. I'm aware of a few cases where it has worked but it's the rare exception. The reason it doesn't work is that theres's rarely one clean reflection. There's usually multiple reflections that interfere with each other. My spectrum analyzer capture below shows the direct path signal (in yellow) for KOVR (25) and reflections off of mountains (in magenta) from behind at my previous location. The reflections destroy the signal. When the analog transmitters were still on the air, pointing the antennas at the reflections produced a picture so bad that you couldn't tell what it was. 




old tv guy said:


> Or if you have access to the top of that ridge that's blocking your line of sight, you can always
> try using a passive repeater array.
> Two Stellar labs HDTV91s with one pointed at Mt Wilson and the other pointed at your house for example.


This has been mentioned on and off for years but I'm unaware of anyone actually doing it. Can you provide a link to anyone who has set up such a passive repeater and gotten it to work?


----------



## holl_ands

Steve347 said:


> *Bi-Directional UHF (probably) Bow Tie - Optimized For Post Repack?*
> 
> Looking for suggestions for a suitable antenna that I could buy and possibly hack if needed (preferably) or possibly build. I am not in a particular hurry as I won't be crawling around the attic until it cools off around here!
> 
> Thanks,
> Steve


 DIY New UHF Band FF4 (Free Form 4-Bay) without Reflector:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bay/newuhffreeform4baynorefl

DIY New UHF Band FF6 (Free Form 6-Bay) without Reflector:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/newuhfff6noreflopt

==================================================
ALSO:
DIY New UHF Band FF4 (Free Form 4-Bay) with FLAT Reflector:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl/newuhffreeform4bayscreenreflopt
[PS: Double Angle Reflector Model decided that FLAT was BEST for New UHF Band FF4.]

DIY New UHF Band FF6 (Free Form 6-Bay) with Double Angle Reflector (DAR):
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/newuhffreeform6bayvdaropt

I'm also working on a version of the NEW UHF Band FF6 where Reflector is forced to be FLAT....


----------



## Steve347

holl_ands said:


> DIY New UHF Band FF4 (Free Form 4-Bay) without Reflector:
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bay/newuhffreeform4baynorefl
> 
> DIY New UHF Band FF6 (Free Form 6-Bay) without Reflector:
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/newuhfff6noreflopt
> 
> ==================================================
> ALSO:
> DIY New UHF Band FF4 (Free Form 4-Bay) with FLAT Reflector:
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl/newuhffreeform4bayscreenreflopt
> [PS: Double Angle Reflector Model decided that FLAT was BEST for New UHF Band FF4.]
> 
> DIY New UHF Band FF6 (Free Form 6-Bay) with Double Angle Reflector (DAR):
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/newuhffreeform6bayvdaropt
> 
> I'm also working on a version of the NEW UHF Band FF6 where Reflector is forced to be FLAT....


Thanks for the info! I see that these have gain on Hi-VHF which I do not need as I will be utilizing a separate Hi-VHF antenna. Is the VHF a by-product of this design or was it intentional?

I also see that these are 4x1 or 6x1 vertical arrays instead of 2x2 or 3x2 side-by-side. Is there a specific performance reason for this? Starting to look like a Danny Hodge "ultimate" antenna!


----------



## rabbit73

Steve347 said:


> Thanks for the info! I see that these have gain on Hi-VHF which I do not need as I will be utilizing a separate Hi-VHF antenna. Is the VHF a by-product of this design or was it intentional?


My guess is that the design by holl_ands was intentional to include VHF-High as an alternative to a SBGH with NARODS, or separate UHF and VHF antennas.


> I also see that these are 4x1 or 6x1 vertical arrays instead of 2x2 or 3x2 side-by-side. Is there a specific performance reason for this? Starting to look like a Danny Hodge "ultimate" antenna!


The 4x1 and 6x1 vertical arrays have the same horizontal beamwidth as single bays; the gain is increased by making the vertical beamwidth much narrower. If you used 2x2 or 3x2 side-by-side you would have a much narrower horizontal beamwidth making aim more difficult, especially if your channels were not in the same direction. Also, with the side-by-side design, you would need a harness to combine the two sections. With the vertical array, the phase lines combine the bays.


----------



## Steve347

rabbit73 said:


> The 4x1 and 6x1 vertical arrays have the same horizontal beamwidth as single bays; the gain is increased by making the vertical beamwidth much narrower. If you used 2x2 or 3x2 side-by-side you would have a much narrower horizontal beamwidth making aim more difficult, especially if your channels were not in the same direction. Also, with the side-by-side design, you would need a harness to combine the two sections. With the vertical array, the phase lines combine the bays.


Thanks for the explanation! Seems like you can buy commercial 2x2 bow ties all day long like the DB4 but I have yet to see a commercial x1 vertical array. Why is that? Shipping size constraints? Seems like the 2x2 arrays are a compromised design.


----------



## Calaveras

Steve347 said:


> Thanks for the info! I see that these have gain on Hi-VHF which I do not need as I will be utilizing a separate Hi-VHF antenna. Is the VHF a by-product of this design or was it intentional


It's a by-product but the gain can't be realized because of the extremely high VSWR. One of the models showed a Hi-VHF VSWR of 22-33!! The mismatch loss will be so huge that the real world gain is likely to be negative.

I was just looking at my 7/10 MHz dipole I use for ham radio. I use vacuum relays to switch in and out the loading for 7 MHz. When listening to WWV on 10 MHz, I see a 20 dB signal decrease when I switch it to 7 MHz. I'm sure if I used an antenna tuner that there would be little difference at all. It doesn't take stupendously high VSWRs to get some mismatch loss. I've seen a few dB loss with ham radio antennas with VSWRs of only 3:1. This is why the DTV Primer page has two sets of graphs for antennas; Raw Gain and Net Gain. This is one of the reasons I like LPDAs for antennas: virtually no mismatch loss. 

There's another issue with the models when using an antenna far off frequency from which it was designed. The peak lobe of the pattern is likely not to be perpendicular to the antenna like you normally expect. I tried some Hi VHF yagis on low VHF and found the best signal when off pointed about 45 degrees. It wouldn't surprise me to find there was something like this going on with the multi bay UHF antennas when used on Hi VHF.


----------



## rabbit73

Steve347 said:


> Thanks for the explanation! Seems like you can buy commercial 2x2 bow ties all day long like the DB4 but I have yet to see a commercial x1 vertical array. Why is that? Shipping size constraints? Seems like the 2x2 arrays are a compromised design.


A single bay bowtie antenna is a full wave dipole that doesn't have much more gain than a halfwave dipole, so there isn't much point in building one. A 2-bay bowtie vertical array has much more gain than a halfwave dipole; a good step up.

The most popular bowtie array is the vertical array of 4 bowties. 










The DB4e looks like an ordinary 4-bay antenna, but it is actually 2-over-2 with a vertical harness that connects the two sections. This is called a distributed feed. The advantage of the distributed feed is that the two 2-bay sections have identical performance. 










With the more common 4-bay design, the outer bays at the top and bottom don't perform exactly like the two inner bays across the UHF band. This is because as you move away from the mid-band design frequency, the whisker elements on each side and the vertical phase lines between the bays are no longer a half-wave.

https://www.m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweather.com/Data/Current flow examples.html


----------



## SFischer1

Calaveras said:


> ...
> 
> There's another issue with the models when using an antenna far off frequency from which is was designed. The peak lobe of the pattern is likely not to be perpendicular to the antenna like you normally expect. I tried some Hi VHF yagis on low VHF and found the best signal when off pointed about 45 degrees. It wouldn't surprise me to find there was something like this going on with the multi bay UHF antennas when used on Hi VHF.


Nuts 

KRCB took in $72M for moving from RF 23 to VHF-Lo RF 5.

The station is moving to Sutro tower in San Francisco, 36 miles closer from 75 miles away.

I was hoping my CM4228HD which gets KGO VC 7 RF 7 great would work for RF 5.

As I am allowed only one outside antenna, maybe going up and scaping the metal off the new roof (Insane!) would help the currently disconnected VHF-Hi/Lo which I installed ~ 1973 come back to life.

SHF


----------



## rabbit73

SFischer1 said:


> KRCB took in $72M for moving from RF 23 to VHF-Lo RF 5.
> 
> The station is moving to Sutro tower in San Francisco, 36 miles closer from 75 miles away.
> 
> I was hoping my CM4228HD which gets KGO VC 7 RF 7 great would work for RF 5.


 Isn't that your 4228HD with a possible VHF-Low dipole added above it?


> As I am allowed only one outside antenna, maybe going up and scraping the metal off the new roof (Insane!) would help the currently disconnected VHF-Hi/Lo which I installed ~ 1973 come back to life.


How much aluminum foil would you have to scrape off the sheathing for a channel 5 dipole? Would the direction be correct?

Your earlier post about the problem:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...-related-hardware-topic-555.html#post51895097


----------



## Calaveras

Calaveras said:


> There's another issue with the models when using an antenna far off frequency from which it was designed. The peak lobe of the pattern is likely not to be perpendicular to the antenna like you normally expect. I tried some Hi VHF yagis on low VHF and found the best signal when off pointed about 45 degrees. It wouldn't surprise me to find there was something like this going on with the multi bay UHF antennas when used on Hi VHF.



I see on the DTV Primer page that he modeled the old YA-1713 Hi VHF yagi.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w1713.html

He notes that the performance is much worse than what's shown in the model outputs. He doesn't say it but it's because of mismatch loss. The model plots for channels 3 and 5 show a pattern for low VHF in line with the high VHF patterns. I've tried this antenna along with others in more than one location and the best signal was not pointing at the station. It was definitely at least 45 degrees off pointed. Pointing directly at the station was actually a null. I don't know why the models are missing this.

Here's a calculator where you can enter VSWR and get mismatch loss along with other parameters.

https://www.microwaves101.com/calculators/872-vswr-calculator

VSWRs of 22 and 33 give some pretty high mismatch losses.


----------



## SFischer1

rabbit73 said:


> Isn't that your 4228HD with a possible VHF-Low dipole added above it?
> How much aluminum foil would you have to scrape off the sheathing for a channel 5 dipole? Would the direction be correct?
> 
> Your earlier post about the problem:
> 
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...-related-hardware-topic-555.html#post51895097


The VHF Lo/Hi antenna in the attic is tied up with string and is pointed in the correct direction towards Sutro in San Francisco. The 4-Bay Bowtie UHF antenna on a rotor also was silenced.

My furnace room now has a ceiling so going into the attic would be required, but at 76 I cannot go up into the attic any more. No floor so it was a balancing act with a miss-step punching a hole in the ceiling. My antenna installer I doubt would do any more work for me outside.

I am unsure what KRCB / KPJK plan is. The reason for moving to Sutro for the RF 5 transmitter for KRCB was interested reading.

https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/dataentry/api/download/attachment/25076ff36798526501679f05f9720941

https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/dataentry/public/tv/draftCopy.html?displayType=html&appKey=25076ff36798526501679f03bcf108f6&id=25076ff36798526501679f03bcf108f6&goBack=N 

SHF


----------



## old tv guy

Calaveras said:


> The problem with this is that in most cases it doesn't work. I'm aware of a few cases where it has worked but it's the rare exception. The reason it doesn't work is that theres's rarely one clean reflection. There's usually multiple reflections that interfere with each other. My spectrum analyzer capture below shows the direct path signal (in yellow) for KOVR (25) and reflections off of mountains (in magenta) from behind at my previous location. The reflections destroy the signal. When the analog transmitters were still on the air, pointing the antennas at the reflections produced a picture so bad that you couldn't tell what it was.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This has been mentioned on and off for years but I'm unaware of anyone actually doing it. Can you provide a link to anyone who has set up such a passive repeater and gotten it to work?


I have used them multiple times myself in fact my cell phone LTE signal is currently being provided via two $20 dollar 4 bay bowties.
I have one outside pointed at the tower and one
in my attic aimed down into the living room.
LTE signal went from 1 bar and breaking up to 3 bars and solid.
I also installed a passive TV repeater in the mountains of central Pa. in order to get tv signals to motels blocked by the hills.
It was merely two large vhf/uhf combo antennas on a nearby high spot.
It provided enough signal for those mom and pop motels to be able to compete with the big chains outside of town that could afford C band dishes or cable and kept them alive for many more years as a result.
Naturally the further you are from the repeater the weaker the signal so distance to the link antenna needs to be kept to a minimum.
Thousands of "translators" are doing much same purpose today but 37 years ago we had no such thing to rely on so we had to make our own.
Kevin Custer W3KKC i believe also installed similar passive fill in repeaters around that same time frame with good results.
Kevin hosts a web site called RepeaterBuilder.com


----------



## Steve347

rabbit73 said:


> The DB4e looks like an ordinary 4-bay antenna, but it is actually 2-over-2 with a vertical harness that connects the two sections. This is called a distributed feed. The advantage of the distributed feed is that the two 2-bay sections have identical performance.


So what are the performance differences between these two different implementations? i.e. why is the DB4E configured the way it is? The manufacturer must have had a reason and it doesn't appear to be overall size to reduce shipping charges.


----------



## Steve347

Calaveras said:


> It's a by-product but the gain can't be realized because of the extremely high VSWR. One of the models showed a Hi-VHF VSWR of 22-33!! The mismatch loss will be so huge that the real world gain is likely to be negative.


This makes sense. Too bad the antenna simulator can't take this into account. This may also negatively affect the desired frequencies as well.


----------



## rabbit73

Steve347 said:


> So what are the performance differences between these two different implementations? i.e. why is the DB4E configured the way it is? The manufacturer must have had a reason and it doesn't appear to be overall size to reduce shipping charges.


 My measurements showed an increase in gain for the DB4e over an original CM4221. Forum member *mclapp *did a lot of experiments perfecting the 4-Bay design for the 14 to 51 UHF band which he posted on this forum and the sister forum digitalhome.ca. That design was called the M4 on the Canadian forum to honor his work. If you look at the current flow diagrams for the design frequency, a lower frequency, and a higher frequency, you will see that as you move away from the design frequency, the current in all elements is not the same; it should be the same and at its maximum for greatest efficiency. However, a bowtie antenna has a much greater frequency operating range than a Yagi. This is the current flow diagram for the design frequency:










This is the antenna operating below the design frequency:










and above the design frequency:










Distributed feed is used for point-to-point shortwave curtain arrays to allow wide changes in frequency according to propagation conditions. The design goal is to have maximum equal currents in all elements for greatest efficiency.










The log periodic array is becoming more common for shortwave broadcast to allow for changes in frequency.

As far as why did Antennas Direct choose that design for the DB4e, you would have to ask the engineer they hired to design it. It was probably the same engineer, Dr. John Ross, who came up with the tapered loop for their UHF antennas, which has good gain and a wide beamwidth. The DB4e was one of their first antennas that was designed for the then smaller 14-51 UHF band.


----------



## Calaveras

old tv guy said:


> I have used them multiple times myself in fact my cell phone LTE signal is currently being provided via two $20 dollar 4 bay bowties.
> I have one outside pointed at the tower and one
> in my attic aimed down into the living room.
> LTE signal went from 1 bar and breaking up to 3 bars and solid.
> I also installed a passive TV repeater in the mountains of central Pa. in order to get tv signals to motels blocked by the hills.
> It was merely two large vhf/uhf combo antennas on a nearby high spot.
> It provided enough signal for those mom and pop motels to be able to compete with the big chains outside of town that could afford C band dishes or cable and kept them alive for many more years as a result.
> Naturally the further you are from the repeater the weaker the signal so distance to the link antenna needs to be kept to a minimum.
> Thousands of "translators" are doing much same purpose today but 37 years ago we had no such thing to rely on so we had to make our own.
> Kevin Custer W3KKC i believe also installed similar passive fill in repeaters around that same time frame with good results.
> Kevin hosts a web site called RepeaterBuilder.com


RepeaterBuilder.com is an advertisement to "Buy this Domain." No information there.

I did find a few threads talking about passive repeaters. Seems like it works best if the signal is strong and the area to relay is a dead zone. This would make sense. I was hoping to find an article with pictures and detailed results but I haven't found that.

I could not find anything about DTV viewers using one. It's probably not practical in most cases since you'd need to own the ridge/hill top.


----------



## Calaveras

Steve347 said:


> This makes sense. Too bad the antenna simulator can't take this into account. This may also negatively affect the desired frequencies as well.


They can but it's often not done. The YA-1713 showed raw gain on channels 3 and 5 of around -2 dB. The net gain was so low that it was below the bottom of the chart.


----------



## rabbit73

Two links about TV repeaters, but the stories are old:

http://www.matthewsworkbench.com/passive-tv-repeater/

http://web.archive.org/web/20080328024851/http://www.shol.com/kuggie/cttip/passive.html

old DHC thread:
*Passive TV Relay Possible?*
https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/18...lopment/113236-passive-tv-relay-possible.html


----------



## richart

Calaveras said:


> RepeaterBuilder.com is an advertisement to "Buy this Domain." No information there.


There is supposed to be a " - " in the URL: http://www.repeater-builder.com/
Can't say that I've ever seen an article there about passive repeaters, mainly technical info about active VHF/UHF repeaters for ham radio, commercial, GMRS, etc.


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> Two links about TV repeaters, but the stories are old:
> 
> http://www.matthewsworkbench.com/passive-tv-repeater/
> 
> http://web.archive.org/web/20080328024851/http://www.shol.com/kuggie/cttip/passive.html
> 
> old DHC thread:
> *Passive TV Relay Possible?*
> https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/18...lopment/113236-passive-tv-relay-possible.html


Thanks! The more I read about this the more I think it has some limited applications but there are too many obstacles for it to be a viable option for almost everyone trying to receive DTV at their home. I'd prefer to stick to practical solutions for the average person wanting OTA TV.


----------



## Calaveras

richart said:


> There is supposed to be a " - " in the URL: http://www.repeater-builder.com/
> Can't say that I've ever seen an article there about passive repeaters, mainly technical info about active VHF/UHF repeaters for ham radio, commercial, GMRS, etc.



Looks like you're right. Searching the site for "passive repeater" returned no hits.


----------



## rabbit73

A journal article:
Passive Reception of Digital TV Signals with an Antenna
http://www.set.org.br/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/06_IEEE-format-Passive-Reception-of-Digital-TV-Signals-with-an-Antenna.pdf




Calaveras said:


> Thanks! The more I read about this the more I think it has some limited applications but there are too many obstacles for it to be a viable option for almost everyone trying to receive DTV at their home. I'd prefer to stick to practical solutions for the average person wanting OTA TV.


Yeah, me too.


----------



## rabbit73

SFischer1 said:


> The VHF Lo/Hi antenna in the attic is tied up with string and is pointed in the correct direction towards Sutro in San Francisco. The 4-Bay Bowtie UHF antenna on a rotor also was silenced.
> 
> My furnace room now has a ceiling so going into the attic would be required, but at 76 I cannot go up into the attic any more. No floor so it was a balancing act with a miss-step punching a hole in the ceiling. My antenna installer I doubt would do any more work for me outside.
> 
> SHF


 Well, it looks like you are left with trying some easy experiments yourself. If there is no metal in the walls, can you try an indoor folded dipole for CH 5? If the signal is strong, the only problem you might have is from electrical interference noise, which is very high on VHF-Low. The CH 5 signal would have to be at least 15 dB stronger than the noise to be received.


----------



## SFischer1

rabbit73 said:


> Well, it looks like you are left with trying some easy experiments yourself. If there is no metal in the walls, can you try an indoor folded dipole for CH 5? If the signal is strong, the only problem you might have is from electrical interference noise, which is very high on VHF-Low. The CH 5 signal would have to be at least 15 dB stronger than the noise to be received.
> ...


I just remembered that the impossible RF 2 suddenly appeared on my _backup_ HTPC about a year ago.

I have a non RG-6 cable just lying on the second story floor running to that HTPC from the 8-way distribution amplifier fed by a low noise preamp from my CM4228HD.

A full channel scan shocked me with the RF 2 which I have never seen before. That might be used as a RF 5 antenna next year after the repack.

On my active HTPC RF 2 has never been seen.

So, after phase 9 is complete on May 9, 2020 I _may_ have RF 5.

Should there be any need or desire, it would depend on how the streams on KRCB VC 22 RF 5 and KPJK VC 60 RF 27 are assigned. Should the programming be duplicated ( I consider very likely as RF 5 cannot be received by most viewers) then no problem.

SHF

Note: When it is hot I will not run two HTPCs, my AC cannot keep up with just one running.


----------



## EF9500

Got a stellar labs fringe vhf antenna mounted in my attic. Outside is not an option. I have a rca preamp, but it's a bit underpowered to get vhf for me reliably. Thinking of using a kitztech kt-500. Thoughts? Thanks.


----------



## holl_ands

Steve347 said:


> Thanks for the explanation! Seems like you can buy commercial 2x2 bow ties all day long like the DB4 but I have yet to see a commercial x1 vertical array. Why is that? Shipping size constraints? Seems like the 2x2 arrays are a compromised design.


 YES, the so-called "2x2" array [aka "Vertically Stacked 2-Bay Bowties"] are a compromised design (just like DB-8e and C4) since they use a 2-Port RF Combiner, which has LOSS on the order of about 0.5 to 1.5+ dB....for example see Loss Measurements towards bottom of my fol. webpage:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota

BTW: A-D DB-4e, Solid Signal HDB-4X and CM-4221HD do NOT use a 2-Port RF Combiner....the box in the middle is a PCB (Printed Circuit Board) Balun.

=============================================
I did a Parametric Investigation to determine the UHF & Hi-VHF Performance of various WIDTH Screen Grid Reflectors, using M4 (9.5x9) as a "typical" 4-Bay Example. The "best" Width was found to be about 32-inches. Much smaller Widths resulted in Hi-VHF Gain reductions, esp. on Lower Channels where the Gain blew out the BACK of the Antenna:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl/m49590variousflatscreengridwidth

=============================================
Towards the bottom of the fol. "Loops" Album, you will see several examples where I greatly improved the Hi-VHF SWR by adding "Resonant Loop(s)" to the design:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops
"Eventually" I'll get around to re-Optimizing these designs for the NEW UHF Band....but since they were Optimized for 698 MHz Max, they're pretty good just as they are....


----------



## Calaveras

EF9500 said:


> Got a stellar labs fringe vhf antenna mounted in my attic. Outside is not an option. I have a rca preamp, but it's a bit underpowered to get vhf for me reliably. Thinking of using a kitztech kt-500. Thoughts? Thanks.



I don't know what you mean by "underpowered" but I assume you mean you don't think it has enough gain. The most important parameter is System Noise Figure, not gain. Your coax run must be pretty short for an attic antenna. You don't need a high gain preamp like the KT-500. It may do more harm than good. A better choice is the KT-200. You can improve the System Noise Figure by a few dB over the RCA preamp. A detailed look at noise and preamps is on my page:

http://www.aa6g.org/DTV/Noise/noise.html


----------



## rabbit73

holl_ands said:


> YES, the so-called "2x2" array [aka "Vertically Stacked 2-Bay Bowties"] are a compromised design (just like DB-8e, C4 and DB4e) since they use a 2-Port RF Combiner, which has LOSS on the order of about 0.5 to 1.5+ dB....for example see Loss Measurements towards bottom of my fol. webpage:
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota


 What makes you think the DB4e uses a hybrid combiner?

It looks like a harness and a balun as with your HHH. I think the balun is the UP2A; ADTech can confirm that.


----------



## EF9500

Calaveras said:


> I don't know what you mean by "underpowered" but I assume you mean you don't think it has enough gain. The most important parameter is System Noise Figure, not gain. Your coax run must be pretty short for an attic antenna. You don't need a high gain preamp like the KT-500. It may do more harm than good. A better choice is the KT-200. You can improve the System Noise Figure by a few dB over the RCA preamp. A detailed look at noise and preamps is on my page:
> 
> http://www.aa6g.org/DTV/Noise/noise.html


Yes, gain. I just emailed someone at kitz, and they recommended the kt-200 like you did. I ordered it, should have it by Friday. Will update how it works out. Thanks.


----------



## old tv guy

holl_ands said:


> YES, the so-called "2x2" array [aka "Vertically Stacked 2-Bay Bowties"] are a compromised design (just like DB-8e, C4 and DB4e) since they use a 2-Port RF Combiner, which has LOSS on the order of about 0.5 to 1.5+ dB....for example see Loss Measurements towards bottom of my fol. webpage:
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota
> 
> BTW: Solid Signal HDB-4X and CM-4221HD do NOT use a 2-Port RF Combiner....the box in the middle is a PCB (Printed Circuit Board) Balun.
> 
> =============================================
> I did a Parametric Investigation to determine the UHF & Hi-VHF Performance of various WIDTH Screen Grid Reflectors, using M4 (9.5x9) as a "typical" 4-Bay Example. The "best" Width was found to be about 32-inches. Much smaller Widths resulted in Hi-VHF Gain reductions, esp. on Lower Channels where the Gain blew out the BACK of the Antenna:
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl/m49590variousflatscreengridwidth
> 
> =============================================
> Towards the bottom of the fol. "Loops" Album, you will see several examples where I greatly improved the Hi-VHF SWR by adding "Resonant Loop(s)" to the design:
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops
> "Eventually" I'll get around to re-Optimizing these designs for the NEW UHF Band....but since they were Optimized for 698 MHz Max, they're pretty good just as they are....


Excellent information as always.
Yes, a properly designed 4 bay phased array merely needs a 4 to 1 balun in order to use coax so that is the only loss.
Same with the 4228, 8800, and U8000 eight bay phased arrays.
They merely use a single 4 to 1 balun instead of the greater loss of using two baluns, a combiner, and coax jumpers as several others use.


----------



## old tv guy

Using a "low noise" preamp on low vhf frequencies has little benefit since the noise floor at those frequencies is so high you won't normally see the advantage a low noise amp offers


----------



## Calaveras

EF9500 said:


> Yes, gain. I just emailed someone at kitz, and they recommended the kt-200 like you did. I ordered it, should have it by Friday. Will update how it works out. Thanks.



Don't be disappointed if it doesn't make any difference. As rabbit73 illustrated above, Hi-VHF often has more environmental noise than UHF. A lower noise preamp may not make any improvement. I'm using a KT-200 on Hi-VHF and UHF and saw couple of dB improvement on some very weak stations.


----------



## old tv guy

The $300 Blonder Tongue preamps i have used for decades have a 3.5Db noise figure on low VHF which is more than adequate for that band.


----------



## EF9500

Calaveras said:


> Don't be disappointed if it doesn't make any difference. As rabbit73 illustrated above, Hi-VHF often has more environmental noise than UHF. A lower noise preamp may not make any improvement. I'm using a KT-200 on Hi-VHF and UHF and saw couple of dB improvement on some very weak stations.


Well according to specs, the kt-200 has about 10db more gain. Not looking for a miracle, just enough to make vhf more stable.


----------



## Calaveras

EF9500 said:


> Well according to specs, the kt-200 has about 10db more gain. Not looking for a miracle, just enough to make vhf more stable.



True but irrelevant. 17 dB gain on high VHF is probably plenty of gain for your setup. More gain does not equal better reception. Please read the article I linked above that explains this.


----------



## Calaveras

old tv guy said:


> Using a "low noise" preamp on low vhf frequencies has little benefit since the noise floor at those frequencies is so high you won't normally see the advantage a low noise amp offers



At my previous location which was rural and quiet I ran some tests on low VHF and found that the ambient noise was about 10 dB higher than on UHF. A system noise figure of


----------



## rabbit73

EF9500 said:


> Well according to specs, the kt-200 has about 10db more gain. Not looking for a miracle, just enough to make vhf more stable.


 Huh? According to the specs I looked at, the KT-500 has about 10 dB more gain than the KT-200, but I don't think that extra 10 dB is going to help you. 

You haven't even told us your location or shown us your signal report as required in the sticky, making it difficult to give you accurate advice.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...all-ota-threads-rabbitears-info-1st-post.html

The scraps of information that I had to hunt for were Stony Brook, attic antenna, VHF channel problem, LED lamps causing VHF interference; I don't know how accurate those clues are. More antenna gain and more preamp gain will not help you, they will make the signals and the noise interference stronger, resulting in no improvement.


EF9500 said:


> Yes, gain. I just emailed someone at kitz, and they recommended the kt-200 like you did. I ordered it, should have it by Friday. Will update how it works out. Thanks.


Which one did you order to replace your failed RCA preamps in the attic, the KT-200 standard power or the one for remote coax power? Do you have AC power in the attic?
http://kitztech.com/standard_coax.html

I had two RCA TVPRAMP1R preamps, new and in sealed boxes; they both failed. I'm not impressed with their quality control, and would have paid more for a more reliable preamp.


----------



## Steve347

holl_ands said:


> "Eventually" I'll get around to re-Optimizing these designs for the NEW UHF Band....but since they were Optimized for 698 MHz Max, they're pretty good just as they are....


This brings up a good question. What will it take to optimize these for after the repack? From my very limited antenna experience I would guess that the bow tie elements would get a bit longer and the spacing between bow ties might change.

So, does anyone know if any of the commercially available bow ties have yet been tweaked for post repack or when/if they might or might not?


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> Huh? According to the specs I looked at, the KT-500 has about 10 dB more gain than the KT-200, but I don't think that extra 10 dB is going to help you.



Maybe I'm confused but I thought he was comparing the RCA preamp to the KT-200. The KT-200 does have roughly 10 dB more gain than the RCA preamp on Hi-VHF.


----------



## rabbit73

Oh, OK. That's possible, 16 vs 26. That might help in the attic.


----------



## EF9500

rabbit73 said:


> Huh? According to the specs I looked at, the KT-500 has about 10 dB more gain than the KT-200, but I don't think that extra 10 dB is going to help you.
> 
> You haven't even told us your location or shown us your signal report as required in the sticky, making it difficult to give you accurate advice.
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...all-ota-threads-rabbitears-info-1st-post.html
> 
> The scraps of information that I had to hunt for were Stony Brook, attic antenna, VHF channel problem, LED lamps causing VHF interference; I don't know how accurate those clues are. More antenna gain and more preamp gain will not help you, they will make the signals and the noise interference stronger, resulting in no improvement.
> 
> Which one did you order to replace your failed RCA preamps in the attic, the KT-200 standard power or the one for remote coax power? Do you have AC power in the attic?
> http://kitztech.com/standard_coax.html
> 
> I had two RCA TVPRAMP1R preamps, new and in sealed boxes; they both failed. I'm not impressed with their quality control, and would have paid more for a more reliable preamp.





Calaveras said:


> Maybe I'm confused but I thought he was comparing the RCA preamp to the KT-200. The KT-200 does have roughly 10 dB more gain than the RCA preamp on Hi-VHF.





rabbit73 said:


> Oh, OK. That's possible, 16 vs 26. That might help in the attic.


Sorry, yes i was comparing to my failed RCA, and yes my vhf antenna is in attic. I am 60 miles from the WTC, and ESB. I did purchase a new RCA from amazon, and probably will return it when I receive my kt-200. I will be combining my vhf and uhf using the Ad combiner, and then amping both with the KT. My Uhf is rock solid, using a cs4 mounted out on the roof. VHF is definitely very strange when it comes to position. I am sure i could eliminate my signal issues by mounting outdoors, but the wife is having no part of the huge stellar labs 30-2476 on the roof. I just spent the last 2 hours in my attic(135 degrees) moving my antenna around. I just gained 10db on my signal just by moving it. Thats where I am at right now.

Edit...ugh. Just like that...vhf is GONE!  Just figured out, when my central air is on, I lose signal. Geezer. Are there any sort of smallish vhf antennas I could try on the roof? My wife won't be happy with the stellar labs up there.


----------



## holl_ands

rabbit73 said:


> What makes you think the DB4e uses a hybrid combiner?
> 
> It looks like a harness and a balun as with your HHH. I think the balun is the UP2A; ADTech can confirm that.


 I think you are right [although technically it COULD be a PCB Balun....OR a 2-Port Combiner]....I fixed my post.
Note that A-D Technical Data Sheet for DB-4e does NOT say it has a 2-Port Combiner (whereas DB8e TDS does):
https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/Technical Data PDF's/DB4E-TDS.pdf
https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/Technical Data PDF's/DB8E-TDS.pdf


----------



## holl_ands

Steve347 said:


> This brings up a good question. What will it take to optimize these for after the repack? From my very limited antenna experience I would guess that the bow tie elements would get a bit longer and the spacing between bow ties might change.
> 
> So, does anyone know if any of the commercially available bow ties have yet been tweaked for post repack or when/if they might or might not?


Bowtie Length is significantly longer, as is the Bowtie-to-Bowtie Spacing. 

I use Computer Driven OPTIMIZATION software (thanks to nikmil) that randomly picks different values for these and other variables [SIXTEEN Total in FF6 with FLAT Reflector], evaluates each random pick....repeat ad nauseum using nikiml's Genetic Search algorithm...until, many days later, it finds the "best" combination of variables....at which time I find that I need to tweak the original antenna model and do it all over again...which is where I am at in Re-Opt of NEW UHF Band FF6 with FLAT Screen Grid Reflector....

I don't know of any Commercial Bowtie's that have been re-Optimized for 608 MHz Max.
And if any mfr's are working on it, they are very likely to keep their mouth SHUT until they announce it's ready for sale...


----------



## johnny antenna

EF9500 said:


> Sorry, yes i was comparing to my failed RCA, and yes my vhf antenna is in attic. I am 60 miles from the WTC, and ESB. I did purchase a new RCA from amazon, and probably will return it when I receive my kt-200. I will be combining my vhf and uhf using the Ad combiner, and then amping both with the KT. My Uhf is rock solid, using a cs4 mounted out on the roof. VHF is definitely very strange when it comes to position. I am sure i could eliminate my signal issues by mounting outdoors, but the wife is having no part of the huge stellar labs 30-2476 on the roof. I just spent the last 2 hours in my attic(135 degrees) moving my antenna around. I just gained 10db on my signal just by moving it. Thats where I am at right now.
> 
> Edit...ugh. Just like that...vhf is GONE!  Just figured out, when my central air is on, I lose signal. Geezer. Are there any sort of smallish vhf antennas I could try on the roof? My wife won't be happy with the stellar labs up there.



You can take the back reflector off the 30-2476 and it works okay. It will have a lower visual profile. Another option is to just have a single reflector tube behind the folded dipole. I've even chopped the first 2 directors off a 30-2476 and it worked good. Maybe post your rabbitears info and you can get more specific advice for particular channel(s) you want. https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php


----------



## johnny antenna

holl_ands said:


> ..
> I don't know of any Commercial Bowtie's that have been re-Optimized for 608 MHz Max.
> And if any mfr's are working on it, they are very likely to keep their mouth SHUT until they announce it's ready for sale...


I see some Antenna Direct DB8 at the bargain discount store. Maybe AD reducing warehouse stocks to get ready for the new ones.


----------



## rabbit73

EF9500 said:


> Edit...ugh. Just like that...vhf is GONE!  Just figured out, when my central air is on, I lose signal. Geezer. Are there any sort of smallish vhf antennas I could try on the roof? My wife won't be happy with the stellar labs up there.


How unfortunate. Would she go for the smaller 30-2475 or the even smaller AD C5? Using just one reflector and removing a few directors from the 2476 or a 2475, as suggested above by johnny antenna, is an interesting idea, they aren't expensive.

Is the central air in front of the antenna, or do you think the central air is creating electrical noise interference like LED lamps can? If you think it is electrical interference, hunt for the source with a portable radio tuned to a clear channel on the AM broadcast band. It's not required by the NEC for an indoor antenna, but sometimes grounding the coax shield with a grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground can help to reject interference. 
https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/interference-radio-tv-and-telephone-signals

Did you get the VHF dipole with your AD CS4 UHF antenna? How does it do?


----------



## rabbit73

johnny antenna said:


> Maybe post your rabbitears info and you can get more specific advice for particular channel(s) you want. https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php


This is a generic report for Stony Brook. A report for your exact location might be different:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=5409

extract from report:


----------



## johnny antenna

rabbit73 said:


> This is a generic report for Stony Brook:
> https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=5409
> ...


I think the issues in New York after the repack haven't been completely worked out. Probably better to check the NY thread for people more familiar.


----------



## mattdp

adream8 said:


> This assessment intuitively strikes me as accurate.
> 
> The signals seem a bit weaker overall down lower, though not enough to lose channels. But down lower the reflections may also be reduced, so I get better results overall.
> 
> I'm going to play around with the 8-bay down lower first, but then I will probably try a 91 element Yagi.
> 
> Would all of these work equally well?
> 
> Stellar Labs 30-2370 ($40 shipped)
> https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2370/long-range-uhf-hdtv-91-element/dp/72Y2542
> 
> Extreme Signal HDB91X ($55 shipped)
> https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=hdb91x
> 
> Antenna's Direct 91XG ($70 shipped)
> https://www.amazon.com/Directional-UHF-HDTV-Antenna-Range/dp/B000LZ9EXI
> 
> The 30-2370 seems a bargain if it works as well as the 91XG.
> 
> I also like this Yagi18A imported from GB that is optimized for the repack frequency range:
> 
> Yagi 18A ($48 shipped)
> https://www.aerialsandtv.com/onlineaerials.html#Yagi18s


I've ordered a Blake DMX16A and JBX21A and a REMO BAS-X11102 MAXI to compare side-by-side with a Stellar Labs 30-2370/HDB91X. I'll be doing A/B testing with SNR meter and spectrum analyzer and writing up a post to share with the peanut gallery. Extra gain could certainly help on some of my fringe jobs.

(Certainly open to suggestion for other high gain yagis available in the US).


----------



## johnny antenna

mattdp said:


> I've ordered a Blake DMX16A and JBX21A and a REMO BAS-X11102 MAXI to compare side-by-side with a Stellar Labs 30-2370/HDB91X. I'll be doing A/B testing with SNR meter and spectrum analyzer and writing up a post to share with the peanut gallery. Extra gain could certainly help on some of my fringe jobs.
> 
> (Certainly open to suggestion for other high gain yagis available in the US).


 Fracarro BLU920F is available from Summit. 

I have tried to order a Kathrein Olympia 180 corner reflector but it's not stocked in the US despite being in their US distributor catalog. I always thought those Kathrein corner reflectors had a nice aesthetic on the elements.


----------



## EF9500

Sorry guys
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=9038e801023797

Trying to get 7, 11, and 13. For some reason 13 wnet is not on that list. Strange


----------



## EF9500

rabbit73 said:


> How unfortunate. Would she go for the smaller 30-2475 or the even smaller AD C5? Using just one reflector and removing a few directors from the 2476 or a 2475, as suggested above by johnny antenna, is an interesting idea, they aren't expensive.
> 
> Is the central air in front of the antenna, or do you think the central air is creating electrical noise interference like LED lamps can? If you think it is electrical interference, hunt for the source with a portable radio tuned to a clear channel on the AM broadcast band. It's not required by the NEC for an indoor antenna, but sometimes grounding the coax shield with a grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground can help to reject interference.
> https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/interference-radio-tv-and-telephone-signals
> 
> Did you get the VHF dipole with your AD CS4 UHF antenna? How does it do?


The vhf dipole didn't do very good. I might try taking the front section off the 2476...basically making it the shorter 2475, then maybe take the back reflector off, and try it on the mast with my cs4. Maybe that will cure all my el noise interference, and give me enough gain. I will also try using a ground block on the coax.


----------



## rabbit73

EF9500 said:


> Sorry guys
> http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=9038e801023797
> 
> Trying to get 7, 11, and 13. For some reason 13 wnet is not on that list. Strange


Thank you for the report.

TVFool is using a defective database to generate reports.



EF9500 said:


> The vhf dipole didn't do very good. I might try taking the front section off the 2476...basically making it the shorter 2475, then maybe take the back reflector off, and try it on the mast with my cs4. Maybe that will cure all my el noise interference, and give me enough gain. I will also try using a ground block on the coax.


 I suggest you leave *at least* one reflector element on the rear end of the boom like on the 2475; you have some very strong local channels at the rear that might overload your preamp.


----------



## EF9500

rabbit73 said:


> Thank you for the report.
> 
> TVFool is using a defective database to generate reports.
> 
> 
> I suggest you leave *at least* one reflector element on the rear end of the boom like on the 2475; you have some very strong local channels at the rear that might overload your preamp.


Here's a better list. Thanks again


----------



## rabbit73

EF9500 said:


> Here's a better list. Thanks again


 Thank you for the better list; excellent! I see two very strong ones from the East, so I think you need the reflector. 

This is the link to your report. Trip, who runs the rabbitears.info site, has designed the link so that it doesn't show your location as the previous reports did. It truncates the coordinates to two places after the decimal point in the report as TVFool does, unless you specify otherwise.
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=5456


----------



## johnny antenna

rabbit73 said:


> ...
> I suggest you leave *at least* one reflector element on the rear end of the boom like on the 2475; you have some very strong local channels at the rear that might overload your preamp.


 I test one reflector bar on the back and it worked ok. Better signal quality with one reflector over none. Just need drill 3/16" hole through the beam. Non destructive modification-- if they need to go back to the big reflector they can.


----------



## EF9500

rabbit73 said:


> Thank you for the better list; excellent! I see two very strong ones from the East, so I think you need the reflector.
> 
> This is the link to your report. Trip, who runs the rabbitears.info site, has designed the link so that it doesn't show your location as the previous reports did. It truncates the coordinates to two places after the decimal point in the report as TVFool does, unless you specify otherwise.
> https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=5456


I know for a fact wlny "behind me from the East" has been off due to the repack. I might try no reflector on back. Does that reduce gain on front? Or not really. Thanks for all the help.


----------



## rabbit73

EF9500 said:


> I know for a fact wlny "behind me from the East" has been off due to the repack. I might try no reflector on back. Does that reduce gain on front? Or not really. Thanks for all the help.


 Removing the reflector WILL reduce the forward gain by about 3 dB and increase the probability of interference from multipath reflections. I think you need that extra gain for your weakest desired VHF channels. Try it both ways to satisfy our curiosity.

If you do leave it off, what will happen when WLNY comes back up with its 1000 kW ERP transmitter?
https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?request=items&facid=73206


----------



## EF9500

rabbit73 said:


> Removing the reflector WILL reduce the forward gain by about 3 dB and increase the probability of interference from multipath reflections. I think you need that extra gain for your weakest desired VHF channels. Try it both ways to satisfy our curiosity.
> 
> If you do leave it off, what will happen when WLNY comes back up with its 1000 kW ERP transmitter?
> https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?request=items&facid=73206


On, it will go 😀


----------



## holl_ands

Stellar Labs 30-2475 Analysis already explored various mods:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/hivhf9elfdyagistellarlabs
So, only remove the 2 Reflectors above & below the plane of the Yagi.
Even better, re-purpose those 2 Reflectors as an additional Pair of Directors [shorter, with Boom Extension].

a) As built, per measurements by Mike Bear:

HiVHF Raw Gain = 8.7 to 10.8 dBi, F/B & F/R Ratio = 10.3 to 21.0 to 19.2 to 19.8 dB
[Poor on Low Channels] and SWR (300-ohms) is Under 2.2 (EXCELLENT).

b) Analyzed Upper/Lower Reflector Rods Repurposed as Two Additional Directors:
[Requires a Front Boom Extension.]

HiVHF Raw Gain = 8.6 to 12.0 dBi, F/B Ratio = 14.1 dB and SWR (300-ohms) Under 2.2.
Improves Ch13 Gain and F/R Ratio on Lower Channels. SWR is Excellent.
New Boom Length = 95.7-in + Ends 

c) Upper/Lower Reflector Rods were removed to investigate degradation to F/R Ratio
(at expense of Raw Gain). See below Charts for results.

d) ALL three Reflector Rods were removed to investigate degradation to F/R Ratio
(at expense of Raw Gain). See below Charts for results.

e) Location of Upper/Lower Reflector Rods relative to Middle Reflector was Re-Optimized,
but there was NO overall improvement when Constrained to be BEHIND the Folded Dipole.


----------



## johnny antenna

holl_ands said:


> Stellar Labs 30-2475 Analysis already explored various mods:
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/hivhf9elfdyagistellarlabs
> So, only remove the 2 Reflectors above & below the plane of the Yagi.
> Even better, re-purpose those 2 Reflectors as an additional Pair of Directors [shorter, with Boom Extension].
> 
> a) As built, per measurements by Mike Bear:
> 
> HiVHF Raw Gain = 8.7 to 10.8 dBi, F/B & F/R Ratio = 10.3 to 21.0 to 19.2 to 19.8 dB
> [Poor on Low Channels] and SWR (300-ohms) is Under 2.2 (EXCELLENT).
> 
> b) Analyzed Upper/Lower Reflector Rods Repurposed as Two Additional Directors:
> [Requires a Front Boom Extension.]
> 
> HiVHF Raw Gain = 8.6 to 12.0 dBi, F/B Ratio = 14.1 dB and SWR (300-ohms) Under 2.2.
> Improves Ch13 Gain and F/R Ratio on Lower Channels. SWR is Excellent.
> New Boom Length = 95.7-in + Ends
> 
> c) Upper/Lower Reflector Rods were removed to investigate degradation to F/R Ratio
> (at expense of Raw Gain). See below Charts for results.
> 
> d) ALL three Reflector Rods were removed to investigate degradation to F/R Ratio
> (at expense of Raw Gain). See below Charts for results.
> 
> e) Location of Upper/Lower Reflector Rods relative to Middle Reflector was Re-Optimized,
> but there was NO overall improvement when Constrained to be BEHIND the Folded Dipole.


Should note 30-2475 and 30-2476 have different reflector design. 30-2476 does not have reflector rod on plane as from factory. Overall, I think these antennas are tolerant of modifications.


----------



## EF9500

johnny antenna said:


> Should note 30-2475 and 30-2476 have different reflector design. 30-2476 does not have reflector rod on plane as from factory. Overall, I think these antennas are tolerant of modifications.


Yeah, I have the 2476. When I remove the front section, it will actually be shorter than the 2475. Hoping for good results.
Also, quick question. Gonna be using a kt-200 amp. I'm using an ad combiner. Amp is going to be inside attic, so just have the amp feed the combiner, then the antennas?


----------



## EF9500

Just wasted 3 hours of my life putting the 30-2476 out on the roof. Signal was no better, possibly worse on channel 13. I tried every area on the roof. So back up in the attic it went. I moved it one bay over, signal seems good, a/c not interfering. Strange that one bay over fixed it. Wondering if my kt-200 will give me slightly better signal. That's coming tomorrow.


----------



## SFischer1

*Why I don't watch KPJK*

Why I don't watch KPJK and will not until the FCC buys them a new transmitter next year.

I caught the transmitter on for ~ 17 days sending no useful information at all. Both exciters were bad.

SHF

https://sfbayatsc.koherence.com/index.php/signal-data-charts/?bmon_channel=43


----------



## Calaveras

EF9500 said:


> Just wasted 3 hours of my life putting the 30-2476 out on the roof. Signal was no better, possibly worse on channel 13. I tried every area on the roof. So back up in the attic it went. I moved it one day over, signal seems good, a/c not interfering. Strange that one bay over fixed it. Wondering if my kt-200 will give me slightly better signal. That's coming tomorrow.



There's no way that the signal can't be stronger with the antenna on the roof vs the attic. Despite what they may say, almost no TV shows actual signal strength. They show Signal-to-Noise Ratio even if they call it Signal Strength. Depending on what your problem is, it is completely possible to get no SNR improvement moving the antenna from the attic to the roof. Based on your results, I'd say that the KT-200 will not improve your reception.

Without connecting a spectrum analyzer to your antenna, I'm guessing you have some sort of interference problem that does not get better when moving the antenna.

We do run into cases here where we can't solve the problem because we don't have enough information. Yours is beginning to sound like one of them.


----------



## EF9500

Calaveras said:


> There's no way that the signal can't be stronger with the antenna on the roof vs the attic. Despite what they may say, almost no TV shows actual signal strength. They show Signal-to-Noise Ratio even if they call it Signal Strength. Depending on what your problem is, it is completely possible to get no SNR improvement moving the antenna from the attic to the roof. Based on your results, I'd say that the KT-200 will not improve your reception.
> 
> Without connecting a spectrum analyzer to your antenna, I'm guessing you have some sort of interference problem that does not get better when moving the antenna.
> 
> We do run into cases here where we can't solve the problem because we don't have enough information. Yours is beginning to sound like one of them.


I wish you were here, to witness what I experienced. Vhf is really a strange frequency. I swear something inside my house is actually boosting the signal. I have a Sony TV that gives a detailed signal along with errors. Everywhere on the roof, I experienced lower signal with errors. Inside my attic, I have a solid lock, with no errors the last 2 hours. I really can't explain it. I do thank you, and everyone else with the help. My wife and neighbors think I'm nuts with this odd hobby. Lol.


----------



## Calaveras

EF9500 said:


> I wish you were here, to witness what I experienced. Vhf is really a strange frequency. I swear something inside my house is actually boosting the signal. I have a Sony TV that gives a detailed signal along with errors. Everywhere on the roof, I experienced lower signal with errors. Inside my attic, I have a solid lock, with no errors the last 2 hours. I really can't explain it. I do thank you, and everyone else with the help. My wife and neighbors think I'm nuts with this odd hobby. Lol.



I have a Sony too and its diagnostic screen has a real Signal Strength meter. See attached image. You can tell a real Signal Strength meter if the Signal Strength and Signal Quality (SNR) displays do not track each other. If they do then they're both Signal Quality meters.

If you have a Diagnostic screen like mine then you should see a higher number on the Signal Strength display when the antenna is on the roof regardless of the SNR. What does yours show?


----------



## EF9500

Calaveras said:


> I have a Sony too and its diagnostic screen has a real Signal Strength meter. See attached image. You can tell a real Signal Strength meter if the Signal Strength and Signal Quality (SNR) displays do not track each other. If they do then they're both Signal Quality meters.
> 
> If you have a Diagnostic screen like mine then you should see a higher number on the Signal Strength display when the antenna is on the roof regardless of the SNR. What does yours show?


Mine looks just like that. Outside, 38, inside 50. It really makes no sense, but hey, I'm ok with it, as long as it's locked, with no errors.
I will be doing a before and after with the kt-200, compared to the RCA. Not really expecting much.


----------



## johnny antenna

EF9500 said:


> Mine looks just like that. Outside, 38, inside 50. It really makes no sense, but hey, I'm ok with it, as long as it's locked, with no errors.
> I will be doing a before and after with the kt-200, compared to the RCA. Not really expecting much.


Thirteen will increase power in 2020. Not much but it hopefully it can help in your fringe situation.


----------



## EF9500

johnny antenna said:


> Thirteen will increase power in 2020. Not much but it hopefully it can help in your fringe situation.


So the kt-200 added about 3 to 5 onto my numbers with the rca. Wasn't expecting a miracle. Anything is better than none. I will say that rca preamp is damn good for the $.


----------



## statmanmi

EF9500 said:


> So the kt-200 added about 3 to 5 onto my numbers with the rca. Wasn't expecting a miracle. Anything is better than none. I will say that rca preamp is damn good for the $.


Hi EF9500,

I've been tracking your posts and the replies, as I may soon help a coworker try to pull in our market's RF 13 signal from their cottage which is out-of-market. I have in mind to recommend the 30-2476 to them.

But, I have a theory from my novice knowledge related to your location and RF 13. I'm wondering if you're having FM radio signals giving you second order harmonics? Man, I sound techie.

If you have strong nearby FM signals from 105.0 (so 104.9 officially) up through 108 (okay, 107.9), their second order harmonics hit in RF 13's range of 210 to 216 Mhz.

Both the RCA Preamp and KT-200 mention having FM Traps, but neither provide specifics on how much they attenuate (block) the signal.

~~~~~~~

Out of curiosity, when you had the 30-2476 on the roof, did you have a preamp in-line? If not, I'll point out any FM signal would be getting gathered in. 

Then, when you moved back into the attic, perhaps that provided enough "environmental attenuation" of any local FM source in your area that it helped with the improved RF 13 reception.

~~~~~~~

Using just your zip code in both FMFool.com (which is likely also out-of-date, and lacks FM translators) and radio-locator.com (which only provides vague signal indications), it looks like you might have local broadcasts within the FM 105-108 positions.

~~~~~~~

If you care to spend a bit of money pursuing better FM suppression (which likely won't help, but we don't know), about the only place I know of that still has a full-FM-band filter in-stock is this place in Canada:

https://angelelectronics.ca/shop/ota/antennas-direct-all/antennas-direct-fm-band-rejection-filter

When I ordered 3 from them 14 months ago, it was about a month before they processed the order and sent a tracking number. Then it was about a week to get from their place to mine (in Michigan). 

Again, I'm likely sending you on a wild goose chase--but wanted to float the thought that possibly the FM Traps in the preamps are doing you some good.

Cheers! ~~ Statmanmi


----------



## EF9500

Well, tonight vhf is gone. Ugh. Vhf is seriously a joke, it's so unreliable.


----------



## tripelo

mattdp said:


> I've ordered a Blake DMX16A and JBX21A ...


Hi Mattdp,

Please, could you tell where you ordered the Blake DMX16A and JBX21A?

Also, what was the price?

And the shipping cost?

Thanks.

.


----------



## mattdp

tripelo said:


> Hi Mattdp,
> 
> Please, could you tell where you ordered the Blake DMX16A and JBX21A?
> 
> Also, what was the price?
> 
> And the shipping cost?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> .


I ordered directly through their website at Blake-Uk.com. They contacted me back the next day and quoted me $402.76 for shipping, at which point I asked to cancel the order.


----------



## SFischer1

*Watch 4k tv free!*

I was shocked by the ad for the "NEW" Clear TV antenna just before the start of the 49ers Chiefs game tonight.

The original one appeared to be a hacksaw blade and a "F" connector. 

https://buycleartv.com/

I can't find the online version of the ad yet, but if you do find it have a vomit bag handy, I almost needed one.

How this ad can remain on the air I don't understand.

SHF


----------



## CHASLS2

SFischer1 said:


> I was shocked by the ad for the "NEW" Clear TV antenna just before the start of the 49ers Chiefs game tonight.
> 
> The original one appeared to be a hacksaw blade and a "F" connector.
> 
> https://buycleartv.com/
> 
> I can't find the online version of the ad yet, but if you do find it have a vomit bag handy, I almost needed one.
> 
> How this ad can remain on the air I don't understand.
> 
> SHF


Looks like a scam sam.


----------



## adream8

old tv guy said:


> Since your uhf stations are spread out in a 80 degree spread i suggest a DB8e with one 4 bay aimed northeast and one southeast for maximum uhf capture area and horizontal beamwidth.
> Maximum capture area is what is needed when uhf stations are not line of sight and nothing has greater capture area than a phased array bowtie.
> You can then either keep the RCA 751 for 7-13 or buy a Winegard HD7000 to take advantage of the low vhf 2-6 channels as well.


Most all the major relevant local LA station towers are located in one location on Mt. Wilson -- 64 degrees true from me, and the couple that aren't I seem to be getting in fine, oddly enough. So I don't really need an omni-directional.

I went with the CM-4228HD, and have been experimenting with it at various heights. I have about week left where I can return it.

Also, FYI for whoever may want to know -- ANT751 picks up lo-VHF. It's picking up my lo-VHF channels just fine. So I doubt the HD7000 would perform differently or better.


----------



## adream8

Calaveras said:


> A friend lives in a location that's similar to yours except worse. TV Fool says the signals should be strong enough to receive but he can't receive any of them. Turns out that there are reflections off of other hills that are much stronger than the direct path signal. No antenna has a good enough pattern to reject all the reflections enough to receive the direct path signal. None of the prediction programs can take reflections into account.
> 
> I'd be willing to bet that your signals get stronger as you raise the antenna but higher may be more favorable for reflections too. If you got high enough the direct path signals would overcome the reflections but that could well be impossibly high.
> 
> If you haven't tried it, I'd take a chance on an XG91. It has the best pattern of any commercial antenna I know of. No guarantees but if any antenna will do it, the XG91 will. The XG91 is UHF only. You'd need a separate high VHF antenna.


I think your theory about multi-path being prevalent up higher in my little valley situation is probably right. I finally moved the CM-4228 down low where the ANT751 is (3ft above roof line), and it's the best UHF reception I've gotten so far. Those marginal channels are coming in now about 50% of the time instead of about 20% of the time.

The CM-4228HD beats out the ANT751 for UHF when at the exact same height, which I suppose is to be expected considering the gain difference in my relevant 470-610MHz range (6-8dBi vs. 13-15dBi).

The VHF performance of the two antennas is virtually the same. Again, not surprising considering the roughly similar gain (6-8dBi) for both.

Oddly though, the CM-4228 will not pick up RF 13 at all, no matter what. The ANT751 picks it up rock solidly, no problems. This is a puzzler. So the mighty little ANT751 wins by a nose for VHF, and I have to keep it in the game if I want RF 13, which is an essential and good station in LA.

So right now I've got the ANT751 @ 3ft, and the very bottom of the CM-4228HD only 1ft above it @ 4ft, both running to the RCA preamp, and this has been the most complete reception I've gotten so far.

I realize that having the antennas this close is not ideal for avoiding interference, but if I move the 8 bay higher, I lose the marginal channels.

I may try mounting the ANT751 up high on top for VHF -- separate them by 3-4 feet that way, opposite the norm.


----------



## adream8

Calaveras said:


> Thanks! The more I read about this the more I think it has some limited applications but there are too many obstacles for it to be a viable option for almost everyone trying to receive DTV at their home. I'd prefer to stick to practical solutions for the average person wanting OTA TV.


Anybody got a spare $5MIL so I can buy the property at the top of my ridge so I can put up repeaters and get a coupla UHF stations?

:wink:

They're REALLY good stations.


----------



## SFischer1

adream8;58502644...
Oddly though said:


> The CM4228HD is a UHF antenna. It has "some" reception on VHF-Hi, I get RF 12 and RF 7 solidly. It's the reflector that does the VHF reception.
> 
> RF 5 I have lost hope on for next year but RF 5 "May" be duplicated on RF 27 as the station purchased another station with the money the FCC gave the station to move to VHF-Lo.
> 
> You do know that RF 13 is a VHF-Hi signal. I remember my father putting up a special VHF antenna for RF 13 which I watched snowy moves late at night with the snow over my head outside (I was small!). The rest of the Madison, WI stations were UHF!
> 
> If you will PM me with your Lat. and Lon. I will use my topographic program to check your location and send you pictures of the path to the Transmitters in 3D if useful. (E-Mail address needed).
> 
> Those may help you understand what you are fighting, yes you can use
> https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php
> 
> For $60 I got a program that produces graphics much like what I see on the weather casts of the news leading station in San Francisco.
> 
> SHF


----------



## CHASLS2

I have a RCA 751E about 14ft high outside. I get all the chans without break up, but all seem to show a weak signal or half power. Would a Channel Master Pre amp help? It is the model 17-30 dB gain model.

All the chans avg around 30 to 42 miles away to the southeast of me.

I guess no one knows.


----------



## adream8

SFischer1 said:


> The CM4228HD is a UHF antenna. It has "some" reception on VHF-Hi, I get RF 12 and RF 7 solidly. It's the reflector that does the VHF reception.
> 
> RF 5 I have lost hope on for next year but RF 5 "May" be duplicated on RF 27 as the station purchased another station with the money the FCC gave the station to move to VHF-Lo.
> 
> You do know that RF 13 is a VHF-Hi signal. I remember my father putting up a special VHF antenna for RF 13 which I watched snowy moves late at night with the snow over my head outside (I was small!). The rest of the Madison, WI stations were UHF!
> 
> If you will PM me with your Lat. and Lon. I will use my topographic program to check your location and send you pictures of the path to the Transmitters in 3D if useful. (E-Mail address needed).
> 
> Those may help you understand what you are fighting, yes you can use
> https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php
> 
> For $60 I got a program that produces graphics much like what I see on the weather casts of the news leading station in San Francisco.
> 
> SHF


Actually, while the CM-4228HD was designed primarily as a UHF antenna, it is rated as both a high gain UHF and moderate gain hi-VHF antenna.

Yes, I know that RF 13 is a hi-VHF signal.

I'm getting RF 7-12 absolutely fine on it with no problems whatsoever. I'm even getting RF 2-5 (lo-VHF) fine. The antenna is performing through the whole VHF spectrum (2-13) just as well as my ANT751.. EXCEPT for RF channel 13. 

The two antennas have the about same hi-VHF gain rating (~6-8dBi), so the roughly equivalent hi-VHF performance doesn't surprise me.

What does surprise and puzzle me, is that if I put each antenna in the exact same spot with the exact same heading, and at varying heights, the ANT751 will get RF 13 solidly every single time with no problems or dropouts whatsoever. While the CM-4228HD will not pick up RF 13 AT ALL, EVER. So the issue's not the tower signal if RF 13 is always rock solid on a tiny little 3 foot Yagi.

Considering both antennas pick up the rest of the VHF spectrum equally well, this leads me to wondering if the antenna I got is defective or mis-calibrated from the factory.

(Perhaps it's bent or uneven or unaligned in a way that's just enough to cut off reception of only the top end of the hi-VHF range? .. I get RF 11 & 12 & just fine.)

I'm going to call Channels Master tomorrow. I have a few days left for my 30 day return.

Anyone ever experience something like this on the CM-4228HD?

Any ideas on what might be going on here?


----------



## johnny antenna

adream8 said:


> .....
> 
> Anyone ever experience something like this on the CM-4228HD?
> 
> Any ideas on what might be going on here?


May be because of the style of harness the 4228hd has. The weakness of the 8-bay antennas is the feed lines/printed circuit board balun. If you were really wanting to tinker you could replace the harness with 2 traditional baluns and a reversed splitter. There are other harness mods too if you want to go way down the rabbit hole.


----------



## adream8

johnny antenna said:


> May be because of the style of harness the 4228hd has. The weakness of the 8-bay antennas is the feed lines/printed circuit board balun. If you were really wanting to tinker you could replace the harness with 2 traditional baluns and a reversed splitter. There are other harness mods too if you want to go way down the rabbit hole.


Thanks. Yeah, I read about that, if you're referring to this:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html

But according to that data the sub-par harness seems to cause a drop off of about 1-1.5 dBi at around RF 23. I'm not sure why it would have any negative affect on performance at RF 13. The graph seems to indicate that it wouldn't.


----------



## johnny antenna

adream8 said:


> johnny antenna said:
> 
> 
> 
> May be because of the style of harness the 4228hd has. The weakness of the 8-bay antennas is the feed lines/printed circuit board balun. If you were really wanting to tinker you could replace the harness with 2 traditional baluns and a reversed splitter. There are other harness mods too if you want to go way down the rabbit hole./forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks. Yeah, I read about that, if you're referring to this:
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html
> 
> But according to that data the sub-par harness seems to cause a drop off of about 1-1.5 dBi at around RF 23. I'm not sure why it would have any negative affect on performance at RF 13. The graph seems to indicate that it wouldn't.
Click to expand...

Other than the harness, if the signal isn't equal across the bays that can cause poor reception too. 
I'm not a fan of the 8 bay antennas, overly complicated in my opinion for the little gain over a 4 bay when you account for the loss in the harness.


----------



## adream8

johnny antenna said:


> Other than the harness, if the signal isn't equal across the bays that can cause poor reception too.
> I'm not a fan of the 8 bay antennas, overly complicated in my opinion for the little gain over a 4 bay when you account for the loss in the harness.


Hmm.. that's interesting. I've read that too. Maybe I should try a 4 bay.

The 8 bay does seem to be pulling most of my marginal channels better. I now have to wonder if a 4 bay might do as well.


----------



## slthomas0

Long time lurker, first time poster. I figured someone may benefit from my years of playing around with preamps in a fringe area. Below are some findings that are not anywhere near technical like the great posters on the forum (thanks Adtech). My setup:

- Cabin in the Northwoods of Wisconsin in a valley surrounded by tall evergreen trees
- WINEGARD HD-8800 UHF High-Gain 8-Bay mounted on roof of cabin (about 25' from ground)
- Samsung OLED TV using the internal signal meter screen showing SNR and number of signal bars (1-10)
- 3 different towers. 2 channels are low power translators (7.1, 34.1), 1 channel is higher power, non-translator (12.1). One of the low power translators though is fairly close to the cabin but not line of site (7.1)
- My Rabbitear Info is attached (I could not post the web link)

I had been using the Winegard AP-8275 for 7+ years with only the occasional drop out when it rained on the far low power translator tower (34.1). The last few months though it has been getting worse. Attached are my findings trying each of the following amps: Winegard AP-8275, Juice, RCA TVPRAMP1R, and the CM-7777HD using both the low and high settings. Juice seems to be my winner. Although the CM-7777HD on high setting is a bit better on my problem channel for SNR, I am worried about its enclosure for the elements outdoors. Support via email from Antennas Direct with my questions was great too. See my testing results from the Samsung TV signal meter screen.


----------



## richart

slthomas0 said:


> ...Attached are my findings trying each of the following amps: Winegard AP-8275, Juice, RCA TVPRAMP1R, and the CM-7777HD using both the low and high settings. Juice seems to be my winner. Although the CM-7777HD on high setting is a bit better on my problem channel for SNR, I am worried about its enclosure for the elements outdoors. Support via email from Antennas Direct with my questions was great too. See my testing results from the Samsung TV signal meter screen.


What were your numbers with no pre-amp?


----------



## slthomas0

richart said:


> What were your numbers with no pre-amp?


I should have added I have about 60' of RG6 cable. I can't get any signal on channels 12.1 and 34.1 so i didn't even bother going up and down the ladder to swap the preamps and into the crawl space for swapping out the injectors to test without since I only could get 1 channel without a preamp.


----------



## Calaveras

slthomas0 said:


> I figured someone may benefit from my years of playing around with preamps in a fringe area. Below are some findings that are not anywhere near technical like the great posters on the forum (thanks Adtech).



My takeaway is that your setup doesn't require a preamp with more than 20 dB gain as would be expected with only 60' of RG-6 coax. The two lowest gain preamps are essentially identical. Higher gain resulted in no improvement.

Did you measure the gain/NF or are these the manufacturer's specs? I measured an AP-8275 and the gain was more like 36 dB as opposed to what Winegard claimed. That's way too much gain except in a few special situations.


----------



## slthomas0

Calaveras said:


> My takeaway is that your setup doesn't require a preamp with more than 20 dB gain as would be expected with only 60' of RG-6 coax. The two lowest gain preamps are essentially identical. Higher gain resulted in no improvement.
> 
> Did you measure the gain/NF or are these the manufacturer's specs? I measured an AP-8275 and the gain was more like 36 dB as opposed to what Winegard claimed. That's way too much gain except in a few special situations.


Thanks for the input - that is from the manufacturer on the noise and gain (or at least what I could find). I should have added I have 60' of RG6 and a 2-way splitter. Big miss on my part of the post. 

Eight years ago when I first put up the antenna, I could only get 1 channel without a preamp so I added the Winegard. Since the Winegard appears to be going out, I played around with the preamps I listed in the screenshot this past weekend. It might be worth going up there once again and trying without a preamp to see if I can get that 1 weaker channel (34.1). Appreciate the input.


----------



## JHBrandt

adream8 said:


> Hmm.. that's interesting. I've read that too. Maybe I should try a 4 bay.
> 
> The 8 bay does seem to be pulling most of my marginal channels better. I now have to wonder if a 4 bay might do as well.


Thing is, a 4-bay wouldn't have much VHF reception at all. It doesn't have the wide reflector the 8-bay has.

You could still use it for UHF and the RCA for VHF, if the RCA gets all your VHF channels as well as it does with channel 13


----------



## tustinfarm

*SWR, return loss measurement utility for TV antennas?*

I recently added a vector network analyzer (VNA) to my set of tools. Excellent tool for characterizing antennas used for amateur radio _transmission_...but I am wondering if there is any utility for TV antenna measurements, specifically...do measurements like SWR, impedance, return loss etc have any utility in comparing different TV antennas? I can definitely see some utility in measuring the line loss for different coax cables, when ends are placed across the two ports (S12).


----------



## rabbit73

Congratulations on your new VNA!

Because of the antenna reciprocity theorem, your VNA should be just as useful for receiving antennas as it is for transmitting antennas. As a matter of fact, antenna modeling programs treat the antenna as if it were for transmitting.

The most useful parameters would probably be impedance and SWR as proof of performance that comes after modeling.

In this presentation, by Dr. John Ross who invented the tapered loop for Antennas Direct, you will see several prototype antennas ready for measurement:

http://www.johnross.com/SBE_2008.pdf

his website:
http://www.johnross.com/

his equipment:
http://www.johnross.com/laboratory.html


----------



## Calaveras

tustinfarm said:


> I recently added a vector network analyzer (VNA) to my set of tools. Excellent tool for characterizing antennas used for amateur radio _transmission_...but I am wondering if there is any utility for TV antenna measurements, specifically...do measurements like SWR, impedance, return loss etc have any utility in comparing different TV antennas? I can definitely see some utility in measuring the line loss for different coax cables, when ends are placed across the two ports (S12).


SWR, impedance and Return Loss are related and essentially the same thing. If two antennas claimed the same gain but one has a high SWR and the other a low SWR then the latter would have a higher real gain. Here's a calculator where you can calculate mismatch loss:

https://www.microwaves101.com/calculators/872-vswr-calculator

Other than that I think the answer is "no." You can't measure gain or F/B Ratio easily.


----------



## tustinfarm

Calaveras said:


> SWR, impedance and Return Loss are related and essentially the same thing. If two antennas claimed the same gain but one has a high SWR and the other a low SWR then the latter would have a higher real gain. Here's a calculator where you can calculate mismatch loss:
> 
> https://www.microwaves101.com/calculators/872-vswr-calculator
> 
> Other than that I think the answer is "no." You can't measure gain or F/B Ratio easily.


Thanks Calaveras and rabbit73 for the useful information...so it sounds like the SWR might have some _limited value_ in comparing antennas, but won't tell the gain or F/B...just _relative _information _if _antennas are purported to have the same gain. And I suppose for an individual antenna the SWR plot might give a _rough_ sense of where it would work best, i.e. hi-VHF, UHF etc.

All that said, I am having a TON of fun with the VNA, checking some FM traps I had laying around, and will be great for checking the LTE filter I have too.


----------



## holl_ands

First 4 Analyses of CM4228HD (As Shipped, with PCB Balun), with HHH [Holl_ands Horizontal Harness], with misc to improve Hi-VHF SWR, and with RCM (separate Baluns/Combiner):
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay

Most important is to use a Commercial Cylindrical Balun [which passes Ch2-69+] instead of Modern PCB Balun [which only passes UHF with low loss]...


----------



## Matthew Hawkins

Under ideal conditions, say you have one of those big old out door antennas like our grandparents had, and it was 30ft off the ground, what would be the maximum distance a tower could reach it with no obstructions? Talking about a full power main station like a CBS from a big city.


----------



## Intheswamp

Matthew Hawkins said:


> Under ideal conditions, say you have one of those big old out door antennas like our grandparents had, and it was 30ft off the ground, what would be the maximum distance a tower could reach it with no obstructions? Talking about a full power main station like a CBS from a big city.


Probably a couple of hundred miles...you did say *ideal* conditions. I'm thinking of tropospheric propagation. Don't depend on it, though. Rare. Usually that infrequent type of propagation is more like 100 miles.

From what I understand the theoretical(?) distance is 70 miles due to the curvature of the earth (line of sight).

Lots of unknows... Age of coax cable? Length of coax cable? Preamp? Number of splitters involved? Last time antenna connections were checked for oxidation/corrosion? Is the desired station transmitting on a UHF or VHF frequency (most of the big old antennas like our grandparents used were VHF antennas). And then you get into the real technical stuff that is beyond me. 

Realistically, I'd be happy with 50 miles as long as no nearby trees or buildings were between me and the transmitter. Also, look at a topo map to be sure there are no hills or mountains that could be putting you in the shadow of the signal, in other words blocking your line of sight between your antenna and the transmitter. I've got one station that is a hair over 50 miles from me that I have given up on due to a hill about halfway between me and that transmitter (20-25 miles distant). My antenna setup is far from optimal...actually it is really close to the ground. But, I can receive a mid-UHF station with my Antennas Direct DB8e consistently with it at about 40 miles. At 30' I figure it would perform much better.

But, again, I think the theoretical distance is 70 miles...or less.

I'm sure some of the antenna experts will give you some good information here, they're very knowledgeable.

Best wishes. It sounds like you've got a project! 

Ed


----------



## Calaveras

Matthew Hawkins said:


> Under ideal conditions, say you have one of those big old out door antennas like our grandparents had, and it was 30ft off the ground, what would be the maximum distance a tower could reach it with no obstructions? Talking about a full power main station like a CBS from a big city.


If you mean "What is the line-of-sight distance between the transmitter and the receive antennas?" then use this:

http://www.ringbell.co.uk/info/hdist.htm

Add the distance for the transmitter antenna and receive antenna. For a 2000' high transmitter and a 30' high receive antenna the distance is roughly 60 miles.


----------



## cpalmer2k

I'm looking at two YAGI antennas and wondered if there is technically any benefit in one vs the other? 

Mediasonic HOMEWORX HDTV Outdoor Antenna - 80 Miles Range Support UHF / VHF (HW-27UV)
RCA ANT751E


----------



## andy416us

cpalmer2k said:


> I'm looking at two YAGI antennas and wondered if there is technically any benefit in one vs the other?
> 
> Mediasonic HOMEWORX HDTV Outdoor Antenna - 80 Miles Range Support UHF / VHF (HW-27UV)
> RCA ANT751E


You should get better VHF-Hi performance with the RCA ANT-751E. UHF performance will probably be about the same.


----------



## MAX HD

Matthew Hawkins said:


> Under ideal conditions, say you have one of those big old out door antennas like our grandparents had, and it was 30ft off the ground, what would be the maximum distance a tower could reach it with no obstructions? Talking about a full power main station like a CBS from a big city.


I guess you could call this ideal.Actually once in a lifetime. From a couple weeks ago.Brighton,ON using a CM4228 UHF.Bude,MS 1122 miles.


----------



## budh9534

Calaveras said:


> If you mean "What is the line-of-sight distance between the transmitter and the receive antennas?" then use this:
> 
> http://www.ringbell.co.uk/info/hdist.htm
> 
> Add the distance for the transmitter antenna and receive antenna. For a 2000' high transmitter and a 30' high receive antenna the distance is roughly 60 miles.


 One thing this shows is that (IN THEORY!) the antenna height doesn't matter very much at all, such as in my case for Chicago stations 58 miles across Lake Michigan from my southwest Michigan house. Because the broadcast antennas are so high, having your receiving antenna high is almost exclusively needed to avoid local obstructions, not to improve the theoretical line of sight (avoiding curvature of earth problems) to the transmitter.

Getting that antenna higher is needed for most of us only to avoid local obstructions and nothing else. The transmitting antenna is high enough (usually) to avoid curvature of earth line of sight issues.

Put another way, if I lived on the shores of Lake Michigan with no local obstructions, I should be able to have my antenna close to ground level and it should make little difference compared to 30 feet up on my roof for reception of Chicago stations across the lake 58 miles away.


----------



## Matthew Hawkins

Intheswamp said:


> Probably a couple of hundred miles...you did say *ideal* conditions. I'm thinking of tropospheric propagation. Don't depend on it, though. Rare. Usually that infrequent type of propagation is more like 100 miles.
> 
> From what I understand the theoretical(?) distance is 70 miles due to the curvature of the earth (line of sight).
> 
> Lots of unknows... Age of coax cable? Length of coax cable? Preamp? Number of splitters involved? Last time antenna connections were checked for oxidation/corrosion? Is the desired station transmitting on a UHF or VHF frequency (most of the big old antennas like our grandparents used were VHF antennas). And then you get into the real technical stuff that is beyond me.
> 
> Realistically, I'd be happy with 50 miles as long as no nearby trees or buildings were between me and the transmitter. Also, look at a topo map to be sure there are no hills or mountains that could be putting you in the shadow of the signal, in other words blocking your line of sight between your antenna and the transmitter. I've got one station that is a hair over 50 miles from me that I have given up on due to a hill about halfway between me and that transmitter (20-25 miles distant). My antenna setup is far from optimal...actually it is really close to the ground. But, I can receive a mid-UHF station with my Antennas Direct DB8e consistently with it at about 40 miles. At 30' I figure it would perform much better.
> 
> But, again, I think the theoretical distance is 70 miles...or less.
> 
> I'm sure some of the antenna experts will give you some good information here, they're very knowledgeable.
> 
> Best wishes. It sounds like you've got a project!
> 
> Ed



The Coax is brand new RG6, new balun, just put in this past Sunday. No amps of any kind, no splitters, The channel I want is UHF.


Speaking of ideal conditions, the other day I was able to get a channel from Wilmington, that's over 300 miles. It was crystal clear for about 10 minutes, then nothing.


----------



## Intheswamp

Matthew, the best consistent distance with everything set up the best it can be and having the best weather conditions would be probably 50-60 miles. There's just so far that a dependable signal can reach. How far are your desired transmitters from you.

The 300 mile reception is what is known as "tropo", "tropospheric propagation", "tropospheric ducting"... Google it. 

You can even go to this site and see predictions for long range reception... http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo.html


----------



## Calaveras

Matthew Hawkins said:


> The Coax is brand new RG6, new balun, just put in this past Sunday. No amps of any kind, no splitters, The channel I want is UHF.
> 
> Speaking of ideal conditions, the other day I was able to get a channel from Wilmington, that's over 300 miles. It was crystal clear for about 10 minutes, then nothing.



Post a link to your Rabbitears report and maybe we can help you.

https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php


----------



## tylerSC

Matthew Hawkins said:


> The Coax is brand new RG6, new balun, just put in this past Sunday. No amps of any kind, no splitters, The channel I want is UHF.
> 
> 
> Speaking of ideal conditions, the other day I was able to get a channel from Wilmington, that's over 300 miles. It was crystal clear for about 10 minutes, then nothing.


What UHF channel are you trying to receive? With a proper antenna and amplifier, you may be able to receive Charlotte, Greenville-Spartanburg, and Columbia markets if you are in York County, SC.


----------



## Joev1983

MAX HD said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by Ken H_
> *99.44% of the time, the following apply:
> 
> 
> - Bigger is better
> 
> 
> - Higher is better
> 
> 
> - Outside is better
> 
> 
> - Directional is better*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ken,you are sooooo right.Thanks for heading up this thread.I'll start it out with one of the best setups for UHF reception...and I've tried 'em all
> 
> 
> Lots of pics and nice links for valuable info.
> 
> http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...rrentUHFTower/



This advice makes me happy as i just purchased the 100 mile range outdoor antenna from channel master and i have a 20' tall mast outside! Cutting the cord!


----------



## Joev1983

Joev1983 said:


> MAX HD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by Ken H_
> *99.44% of the time, the following apply:
> 
> 
> - Bigger is better
> 
> 
> - Higher is better
> 
> 
> - Outside is better
> 
> 
> - Directional is better*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ken,you are sooooo right.Thanks for heading up this thread.I'll start it out with one of the best setups for UHF reception...and I've tried 'em all
> 
> 
> Lots of pics and nice links for valuable info.
> 
> http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...rrentUHFTower/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This advice makes me happy as i just purchased the 100 mile range outdoor antenna from channel master and i have a 20' tall mast outside! Cutting the cord!
Click to expand...


I live in BFE and can get 4 channels with a cheap i door antenna. Regardless what the realistic range on receiving a tea smission is i wanted the biggest


----------



## ncsercs

Hi,

I want to modify my Antennas Direct DB2e to get CBS Chicago which is VHF 12 that will look like the attached. 

I know I have to cut the Aluminum wire rod to length, hammer the end flat then drill a hole to mount it.

How long should each of the rods be and what diameter?

If the frequency is 207MHz, I'm guessing the length s/b 28.5" on each side.

Like to get as exact as possible.

Is this close or ?

Thanks!


----------



## richart

ncsercs said:


> Hi,
> 
> I want to modify my Antennas Direct DB2e to get CBS Chicago which is VHF 12 that will look like the attached.
> 
> I know I have to cut the Aluminum wire rod to length, hammer the end flat then drill a hole to mount it.
> 
> How long should each of the rods be and what diameter?
> 
> If the frequency is 207MHz, I'm guessing the length s/b 28.5" on each side.
> 
> Like to get as exact as possible.
> 
> Is this close or ?
> 
> Thanks!


I wonder how you came to the conclusion that the length should be 28.5 in on each side?

It looks to me like the VHF element is just a simple dipole. If that is the case you could calculate the length using the dipole antenna calculator at: https://www.translatorscafe.com/unit-converter/FR/calculator/dipole-antenna/

It will give you the total length of the dipole element as well as the length of each leg. It also takes into account the diameter of the rod or tubing you are using. 

For example, using a 1/4" diameter element, the overall length would be 2.29 ft (27.48 in) and each individual leg would be 1.15 ft (13.8 in) for a frequency of 207 MHz.

Of course I may be completely wrong so let's see if others weigh in on the matter.


----------



## johnny antenna

ncsercs said:


> Hi,
> 
> I want to modify my Antennas Direct DB2e to get CBS Chicago which is VHF 12 that will look like the attached.
> .....


The DB2 pictured and the DB2e are totally different designs. I believe the PCB balun on the DB2e only passes UHF frequencies. https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/AD_SpecSheet_DB2e.pdf
How far away is the Channel 12 you want to receive? You may need a dedicated VHF antenna joined with your UHF antenna.


----------



## ncsercs

I'm about 22 miles west of the Chicago loop indoors. 

his is actually *my* DB2e - will it work with this one?


----------



## Intheswamp

$20 gets one of these with a built-in antenna combiner and for channels 7-13:

Antennas Direct VHF-Kit on Amazon

There's two antennas included in this discussion. Which one is actually the one needing the VHF elements?


----------



## ncsercs

Intheswamp said:


> $20 gets one of these with a built-in antenna combiner and for channels 7-13:
> 
> Antennas Direct VHF-Kit on Amazon
> 
> There's two antennas included in this discussion. Which one is actually the one needing the VHF elements?


Tried it. No reception with it.

The post right above yours.


----------



## rabbit73

ncsercs said:


> I'm about 22 miles west of the Chicago loop indoors.
> 
> This is actually *my* DB2e - will it work with this one?


 No, the UP2A printed circuit balun on the DB2e is designed to pass UHF, but not VHF.


----------



## rabbit73

ncsercs said:


> Tried it. No reception with it.
> 
> The post right above yours.


 If the VHF dipole doesn't pick up VHF 12, then there is no point in trying to combine it with your UHF antenna. First, find a VHF antenna and a location for that antenna that will pick up 12 when it is directly connected to your TV. Then, combine it with your UHF antenna with a UVSJ.

If you still live at the same location, this would be your rabbitears.info signal report:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=20895

If you find it difficult to receive 12, it is possible that it might be more than a weak indoor signal; it could be electrical noise interference on VHF-High, which is worse on VHF than on UHF.

Here is a severe case of electrical noise interference on 7-13:










Mine isn't as bad; 7 and 13 are OK, 9 is marginal. I used a $20 RTL-SDR dongle and spectrum analyzer software for this scan:


----------



## ncsercs

rabbit73 said:


> If the VHF dipole doesn't pick up VHF 12, then there is no point in trying to combine it with your UHF antenna. First, find a VHF antenna and a location for that antenna that will pick up 12 when it is directly connected to your TV. Then, combine it with your UHF antenna with a UVSJ.
> 
> If you still live at the same location, this would be your rabbitears.info signal report:
> https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=20895
> 
> If you find it difficult to receive 12, it is possible that it might be more than a weak indoor signal; it could be electrical noise interference on VHF-High, which is worse on VHF than on UHF.
> 
> Here is a severe case of electrical noise interference on 7-13:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mine isn't as bad; 7 and 13 are OK, 9 is marginal. I used a $20 RTL-SDR dongle and spectrum analyzer software for this scan:


Still at the same location. I use an RCA TVPRAMP1Z. I tried the AD VHF dipole while set to SEPARATE and got no results.


----------



## rabbit73

ncsercs said:


> Still at the same location. I use an RCA TVPRAMP1Z. I tried the AD VHF dipole while set to SEPARATE and got no results.


 There is a problem with some of the RCA TVPRAMP1 preamps. I'm not saying your preamp has the problem, I'm saying it might have the problem. Sometimes the combined/separate switch doesn't make good contact with the VHF antenna that is connected to the VHF input. To check, set the switch back to combined and connect the VHF antenna to the combined input. 

If that doesn't make it possible to receive 12, then you will need to do a series of experiments to discover what the problem is. Could be 

1. The channel 12 signal is too weak indoors at your location
2. The preamp is defective (I ordered 2 new RCA TVPRAMP1R preamps in sealed boxes; they both failed..... poor quality control)
3. The noise level from electrical interference is high enough to interfere with the channel 12 signal.
4. There might be a problem with the TV being able to pick up 12 during a scan
5. You haven't found the best location for the antenna. Can you make a temporary test setup of the antenna outside?

*SUGGESTION:*
Buy the $20 RTL-SDR dongle and learn to use the free open-source spectrum analyzer software so that you can see what the channel 12 signal looks like at your location.


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> Mine isn't as bad; 7 and 13 are OK, 9 is marginal. I used a $20 RTL-SDR dongle and spectrum analyzer software for this scan:



What is dB/Hz? I've never seen signal power expressed this way. Can it be converted to dBm? It could be your channel 9 is just too weak to be reliable. This display makes it look like channel 9 is only about 15 dB above the noise floor.

I've been dealing with a nasty VHF noise and it affects channel 9. I'm working with the power company to try to fix it. Most of the time the error correction can take care of it.


----------



## rabbit73

Calaveras said:


> What is dB/Hz? I've never seen signal power expressed this way. Can it be converted to dBm? It could be your channel 9 is just too weak to be reliable. This display makes it look like channel 9 is only about 15 dB above the noise floor.
> 
> I've been dealing with a nasty VHF noise and it affects channel 9. I'm working with the power company to try to fix it. Most of the time the error correction can take care of it.


 For our use, it's just a relative dB scale. 

Technical answer:


> *SNR and C/N*
> SNR is usually expressed in terms of decibels. It refers to the ratio of the signal power and noise power in a given bandwidth.
> C/N in GPS and GNSS (Global Navigation Satellite Systems), on the other hand, is usually expressed in decibel per Hertz (dB/Hz) and refers to the ratio of the carrier power and the noise power per unit bandwidth (power density).


https://insidegnss.com/measuring-gnss-signal-strength/

https://dsp.stackexchange.com/questions/43471/db-hz-to-db-conversion

I don't fully understand the difference, but that is the explanation. 

The dongle dynamic range is limited to 50 dB. It is possible to move that window up or down for calibration in the software, but it doesn't change the sensitivity of the dongle.
*RTL2832U + R820T DVB-T USB Tuner Card Hints & Kinks*
*Adjusting where the Noise Floor displays*
https://www.highdefforum.com/1353614-post9.html

I haven't done that, because I have a signal level meter to measure the strength of the signal.

What you see is correct. The channel 9 signal is just barely 15 dB above the noise. Some days it will decode, some days not. The signal strength will vary and so will the electrical noise; both affect the SNR. 

The dongle contains a preamp. To get an accurate display of the SNR, it is necessary to adjust the gain of that preamp. You increase the gain until the noise floor starts to rise, and then back off a little. For my 7-13 scan, there was no preamp at the antenna. If I had used one, it would have been necessary reduce the gain of the dongle internal preamp to about 5 dB.



















Take a look at Pete Higgins' thread about the SDR dongle. That's where I learned about it. 

*Inexpensive Software Defined Radio Spectrum Analyzer < $10.00*
https://www.highdefforum.com/local-...-defined-radio-spectrum-analyzer-10-00-a.html

You have to login to see all Pete's images.

Look at my post #93 about powerline noise.
https://www.highdefforum.com/1424200-post93.html

Good video

Powerline RFI (Radio Frequency Interference from Power Line) by K8BZ





Some hams have had good luck using the MFJ-1026 to null out powerline noise; look for the videos.

My post on DHC about noise on VHF-Low:
https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/12...arie-northern-ontario-ota-51.html#post3093995


----------



## Intheswamp

ncsercs said:


> I'm about 22 miles west of the Chicago loop indoors.
> 
> his is actually *my* DB2e - will it work with this one?





ncsercs said:


> Tried it. No reception with it.
> 
> The post right above yours.


Sorry, but all I see there is a 2-bay bowtie....no AD VHF-Kit dipole. Whatever the case, best wishes...


----------



## MSZ 007

Hello everyone. I've been a fan of OTA HDTV for several years now. I recently moved from Carlsbad to Temecula a few months back and I'm looking to set up a new OTA Antenna in order to get San Diego stations once again. My old setup in Carlsbad was a Channel Master 2016HD with a 7777 CM preamp in my condo's attic. It worked really well with relatively few drop outs. I understand Temecula is significantly farther from both tower locations in San Diego and all of the channels are 2edge. 

My plan is to go with an outdoor antenna mounted on a 20' mast. I've been looking at the HD stacker since SD has two tower locations. I recently played around with my old Channel Master antenna and preamp mounted on a 4' mast in my front yard. I was able to get KPBS, KNSD, and KSWB at 65 to 80% signal strength. I noticed the signal would then dropout every few minutes. I also tried it again another evening and I had no reception. 

Here's my TV Fool report along with a Rabbit Ears link. Also when inputing the antenna height with both websites, I noticed the Signal Margin increased when I lowered the antenna mast height. Obviously 1 foot tall mast is not ideal since my antenna will be mounted on my roof's fascia. 

I'd like to get everyone's thoughts. Also, I have no interest in receiving LA stations.

TV Fool Link:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9038a88f6d88c9

Rabbit Ears Link

https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=30021


----------



## SFischer1

MSZ 007 said:


> ... I recently played around with my old Channel Master antenna and preamp mounted on a 4' mast in my front yard...
> 
> I noticed the signal would then dropout every few minutes. I also tried it again another evening and I had no reception. ...


Someone posted in the San Francisco Bay Area very long ago one on a 10' mast between two buildings which were much taller.

I pointed out that cars driving past, trains on the nearby tracks … all would cause reception problems.

He was still believing that he has a good solution when I stopped answering him.

Even Google Earth Street View showed his ____ idea.

SHF


----------



## rabbit73

MSZ 007 said:


> I recently moved from Carlsbad to Temecula a few months back and I'm looking to set up a new OTA Antenna in order to get San Diego stations once again.


 Hello, MSZ 007; thank you for the reports.











> Also when inputing the antenna height with both websites, I noticed the Signal Margin increased when I lowered the antenna mast height. Obviously 1 foot tall mast is not ideal since my antenna will be mounted on my roof's fascia.


I have seen that before, using the TVFool Interactive map to try different heights for the antenna. I suspect that it is because a ground reflection of the signal is added to the direct signal for enhancement.

I guess I don't need to tell you that your new location isn't ideal for OTA reception.

Your antenna must be mounted high enough so that the SD signals will clear the peak of your roof.





















> I've been looking at the HD stacker since SD has two tower locations.


SD does have two towers, but they are close together. The Stacker has UHF and VHF antennas. I see no need for the VHF section because there are no VHF-High signals available to you from SD. However, if you wanted to try for LA, you would need the VHF section, but there are trees in that signal path.

There is terrain interference to the signals from SD that is more severe than 2Edge:


----------



## rabbit73

Intheswamp said:


> Sorry, but all I see there is a 2-bay bowtie....no AD VHF-Kit dipole. Whatever the case, best wishes...


 He didn't show it here, he showed it in another post.











He originally posted it here on a preamp thread:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...munications-preamp-owners-4.html#post56726544


----------



## MSZ 007

rabbit73 said:


> Hello, MSZ 007; thank you for the reports.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen that before, using the TVFool Interactive map to try different heights for the antenna. I suspect that it is because a ground reflection of the signal is added to the direct signal for enhancement.
> 
> I guess I don't need to tell you that your new location isn't ideal for OTA reception.
> 
> Your antenna must be mounted high enough so that the SD signals will clear the peak of your roof.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SD does have two towers, but they are close together. The Stacker has UHF and VHF antennas. I see no need for the VHF section because there are no VHF-High signals available to you from SD. However, if you wanted to try for LA, you would need the VHF section, but there are trees in that signal path.
> 
> There is terrain interference to the signals from SD that is more severe than 2Edge:



Thanks for the quick response Rabbit73! I understand my new location is not ideal for OTA reception. Since I was able to briefly get SD channels, I was hoping a larger antenna would help with reliability. 

My roof's ridge is 17' so I do plan on mounting the antenna at about 3' higher in order to clear it. SD does have two VHF high channels (CBS & ABC) but are you saying they're too weak to even try? What would be a better recommendation? For what it's worth, FM radio stations from the same tower on Mount Soledad (CBS/ABC) come in pretty clear in my house.


----------



## rabbit73

MSZ 007 said:


> Since I was able to briefly get SD channels, I was hoping a larger antenna would help with reliability.


 I think your chances of receiving the UHF channels from SD are quite good with a UHF antenna that has more gain than the 2016 if it is mounted above the roof ridge and has a preamp. Perhaps an Antennas Direct 91XG or a Solid Signal HDB91X.


> SD does have two VHF high channels (CBS & ABC) but are you saying they're too weak to even try?


Yes, I do see them. They are a little closer, but their transmitter location on Soledad Mountain is not as favorable for your location as the UHF transmitters on San Miguel Mountain. The VHF transmitters are weaker, but only a test would tell you if they are too weak. 

The Stacker does have UHF and VHF, but I think your chances are better with separate VHF and UHF antennas. For VHF I suggest the Stellar Labs 30-2476.

The choice is up to you; maybe try the Stacker first.

This is the terrain profile for KGTV. You can see that the signal path for the VHF channels is more difficult:




























Your location is within the red contour. Red is the weakest listed signal color, but KGTV with no color in your area is even weaker.

If you want to see the terrain profile for a channel, click on Transmitter Distance in your rabbitears report. For the coverage map, click on Map for a channel.
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=30021


----------



## rabbit73

MSZ 007 said:


> SD does have two VHF high channels (CBS & ABC) but are you saying they're too weak to even try?


Here is a KGTV terrain profile using different software:



















VHF signals can make it over terrain obstructions better than UHF signals. KGTV filed an application in 2017 requesting to increase their power from 20.7 to 160 kW ERP.

https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?request=items&facid=40876

http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_list.pl
click on LMApplication

Modification of a Licensed Facility for DTV
Application

Click on attachment:
KGTV Max CP EngSta 11-27-17.pdf
https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/dataentry/api/download/attachment/25076ff35fd108c00160003061171fd4



> Scripps Broadcasting Holdings LLC (Scripps) is the licensee of KGTV which has a license to
> operate a digital television facility on Ch. 10 (BLCDT-20090410ANQ) at San Diego, CA, with an ERP
> of 20.7 kW at a RCAMSL of 307.0m.
> 
> The tower is located at the following coordinates:
> 32° 50’ 20.0’’ N (NAD 83)
> 117° 14’ 59.0’’ W
> 
> Scripps now wishes to “maximize” the KGTV facility ERP from 20.7 kW to 160 kW; all other facility parameters will remain the same.


KFMB has also filed an application to increase power from 19.8 to 87.4 kW ERP.
https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?request=items&facid=42122

https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/dataentry/api/download/attachment/25076f915fd11ef0015ffff0f9ba3b02


> Station KFMB-TV • Channel 8 • San Diego, California
> Summary and Environmental Exhibit
> November 27, 2017
> KFMB-ENV
> KFMB-TV proposes to increase effective radiated power from 19.8 kW to 87.4 kW, with no other changes to the facility. Based on TVStudy, the proposed facility will not cause impermissible interference to any other stations, including Mexican stations. Additionally, KFMB-TV meets the separation distance criteria set forth in the 1998 USA-Mexico Memorandum of Understanding, with no Mexican co-channel DTV stations within 273 km and no Mexican first-adjacent DTV stations within 96 km..


I see no further action on either application.

It is not necessary to quote my whole post in a reply.


----------



## MSZ 007

Thanks for the detailed analysis Rabbit! With those terrain profiles, chances of receiving KGTV and KFMB are pretty slim. Maybe one of these days they will complete their applications and increase their power. As for antennas, I'm leaning toward trying the stacker first to see what I get. I also have an older Sony HDTV that has a good dialogistic screen which shows signal strength, SNR, AGC, and errors.

If I do try two separate antennas down the road, whats a good rule of thumb for distance between them on the mast?

Matt


----------



## dgkula

Hi,

I'm new to OTA. I have all my equipment & network gear in a basement mechanical space on the south-facing walkout side with a window.
The following is my rabbitears.org report. Will an antenna like the clearstream 2v facing out that south-facing window be sufficient or should I look at putting an antenna up in the attic?

Thanks!

https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=30298


----------



## rabbit73

MSZ 007 said:


> Thanks for the detailed analysis Rabbit! With those terrain profiles, chances of receiving KGTV and KFMB are pretty slim. Maybe one of these days they will complete their applications and increase their power. As for antennas, I'm leaning toward trying the stacker first to see what I get. I also have an older Sony HDTV that has a good dialogistic screen which shows signal strength, SNR, AGC, and errors.
> 
> If I do try two separate antennas down the road, whats a good rule of thumb for distance between them on the mast?
> 
> Matt


Rule of thumb is about 3 feet with the UHF on top. 

My Sony also has the Diagnostics Screen; very helpful.


----------



## rabbit73

dgkula said:


> I have all my equipment & network gear in a basement mechanical space on the south-facing walkout side with a window......Will an antenna like the clearstream 2v facing out that south-facing window be sufficient or should I look at putting an antenna up in the attic?


 Thank you for the signal report from rabbitears.info. Your signals are very strong. Try the easy way first in the basement.

The "R" in the Repack column indicates the transmitter has reduced coverage, which means the signal will be weaker than usual; probably because of antenna work during Repack.

Interesting what has been done with NBC. It is 1080i on WGBX with six 480i subchannels.
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=72098#station


----------



## Mr Tony

rabbit73 said:


> Interesting what has been done with NBC. It is 1080i on WGBX with six 480i subchannels.
> https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=72098#station


It is also on WNEU 60 (RF29) which is licensed to Merrimack, NH but the transmitter is now on the CBS tower.

When NBC took the affiliation to its own O&O they actually had three signals
WNEU (was in Merrimack, NH)
WBTS-CD (licensed to Nashua, NH)
WYCN-CD (which got moved to Providence as a Telemundo now)

WBTS and WYCN actually swapped callsigns in August of this year. Talk about a cluster----


----------



## MSZ 007

Rabbit73, ordered my antenna this afternoon. Will report back once I get it setup! Any suggestions on masts? The only place I could attach a mast to my house is on the north side along the roof eave. The edge of the eave's fascia is about 9' high and the ridge of my roof is another 8' from there.


----------



## rabbit73

MSZ 007 said:


> Rabbit73, ordered my antenna this afternoon. Will report back once I get it setup! Any suggestions on masts? The only place I could attach a mast to my house is on the north side along the roof eave. The edge of the eave's fascia is about 9' high and the ridge of my roof is another 8' from there.


 If you mean here, a mast should come up from the ground and be attached to the fascia.










If it is only mounted on the fascia, you would need guy wires to the mast.


----------



## Superman07

Hi all,
We dropped cable about a year ago and have been by and large pleased with streaming services, although annoyed by lack of multichannel audio (and obligatory compressed signal). So I’d like to look into getting an antenna to bring in locals.

Running my report, it appears all of the channels are in the green, but I don’t know what that means in terms of antenna type I need to buy.

Am I able to get one of the types you out on a table or wall, or would I need something more robust upstairs?


https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=30374 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rabbit73

Superman07 said:


> Hi all,
> We dropped cable about a year ago and have been by and large pleased with streaming services, although annoyed by lack of multichannel audio (and obligatory compressed signal). So I’d like to look into getting an antenna to bring in locals.
> 
> Running my report, it appears all of the channels are in the green, but I don’t know what that means in terms of antenna type I need to buy.
> 
> Am I able to get one of the types you out on a table or wall, or would I need something more robust upstairs?
> 
> https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=30374


 Hello, Superman07; thank you for the signal report. In the green means very strong, but the signals will be weaker inside; the report assumes an antenna outside and in the clear at 30 ft.

Your antenna should be for UHF and VHF; CBS and ABC are VHF-High channels.

I suggest an Antennas Direct C2V antenna. Some are still available; it is being replaced by the ClearStream 2MAX. If you get the C2MAX, it doesn't come with a reflector like the C2V. Adding the accessory reflector will enable it to reject multipath reflections that are common with an indoor antenna.

Most of the flat antennas don't do well with VHF channels, but the Antennas Direct ClearStream FLEX without the amp might work. I still favor the C2V as a first choice.

What type of building are you in?

I use a GE 29884 indoors, but it requires assembly.


----------



## Superman07

I’m in a townhouse. I don’t think I’ll be able to mount outdoors. However, we are pretty high elevation, and have 4 floors. I wonder if I’d be able to set the antenna upstairs and run through coax back down to the main tv (or by extension other TVs). Or will I run into a signal degradation over long runs of cabling?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SFischer1

Superman07 said:


> I’m in a townhouse. I don’t think I’ll be able to mount outdoors. However, we are pretty high elevation, and have 4 floors. I wonder if I’d be able to set the antenna upstairs and run through coax back down to the main tv (or by extension other TVs). Or will I run into a signal degradation over long runs of cabling?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Are you saying you are under the control of a HOA (Home Owners Association).

I am but as the FCC allows you one outdoor antenna I suggest you talk to your board of governors. They likely are aware of the law and have a method for you to have an outdoor antenna. Mine is in a good position and is attached to part of the building that I do not own.

https://www.avsforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=2165469 

The attachment was made to the fascia so that no roof damage (Water leaks from my A/C will cost me $200,000.00) can happen.

The main concern will be the number of splitters, that can be overcome by an amp or a distribution amplifier, mine is a eight way.

SHF


----------



## rabbit73

Superman07 said:


> I’m in a townhouse. I don’t think I’ll be able to mount outdoors. However, we are pretty high elevation, and have 4 floors. I wonder if I’d be able to set the antenna upstairs and run through coax back down to the main tv (or by extension other TVs). Or will I run intoa signal degradation over long runs of cabling?


Your signals are quite strong. I consider mounting outside a last resort, and suggest you try different antenna locations inside with the antenna aimed at 65 degrees True. A strict interpretation of the NEC would require that an outdoor antenna be grounded, which would add a complication. The local AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction), who is usually the electrical inspector, has the final say. His interpretation becomes the law that is binding on you and the local electricians.

My signals are about the same strength, and I have satisfactory reception indoors, on the ground floor, without a preamp. Try the easy way first. If you find that satisfactory reception is not possible, even with an antenna with more gain (Winegard HD7694P is a step up) and a preamp in the attic, then you have a good case if the FCC has to make a final decision in the event of a dispute.

A preamp or a distribution amp can compensate for long coax runs or multiple TVs as *SFischer1* stated above. What counts is how strong the signal is coming out of the antenna terminals which is determined by the antenna location and antenna gain. Try downstairs first. Then try an upper floor and finally the attic with a temporary run of coax. Don't drill any holes yet. Then you will know where the antenna needs to be located. A preamp shouldn't be necessary; a distribution amp might be needed if there are many splits. Either can be powered remotely through the coax with a power inserter.


----------



## Superman07

rabbit73 said:


> Your signals are quite strong. I consider mounting outside a last resort, and suggest you try different antenna locations inside with the antenna aimed at 65 degrees True. A strict interpretation of the NEC would require that an outdoor antenna be grounded, which would add a complication. The local AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction), who is usually the electrical inspector, has the final say. His interpretation becomes the law that is binding on you and the local electricians.
> 
> My signals are about the same strength, and I have satisfactory reception indoors, on the ground floor, without a preamp. Try the easy way first. If you find that satisfactory reception is not possible, even with an antenna with more gain (Winegard HD7694P is a step up) and a preamp in the attic, then you have a good case if the FCC has to make a final decision in the event of a dispute.
> 
> A preamp or a distribution amp can compensate for long coax runs or multiple TVs as *SFischer1* stated above. What counts is how strong the signal is coming out of the antenna terminals which is determined by the antenna location and antenna gain. Try downstairs first. Then try an upper floor and finally the attic with a temporary run of coax. Don't drill any holes yet. Then you will know where the antenna needs to be located. A preamp shouldn't be necessary; a distribution amp might be needed if there are many splits. Either can be powered remotely through the coax with a power inserter.




Thanks. So you’d recommend one of the indoor solutions SFischer1 recommended as well for a starting point?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rabbit73

Superman07 said:


> Thanks. So you’d recommend one of the indoor solutions SFischer1 recommended as well for a starting point?


 SFischer1 didn't recommend an indoor solution as a starting point; he recommended starting outside. I recommended starting inside; starting the easy way first gives you information and experience to go further if necessary to play the role of David (as in David vs Goliath).

Reference his quote:



SFischer1 said:


> Are you saying you are under the control of a HOA (Home Owners Association).
> 
> I am but as the FCC allows you one outdoor antenna I suggest you talk to your board of governors. They likely are aware of the law and have a method for you to have an outdoor antenna. Mine is in a good position and is attached to part of the building that I do not own.
> 
> https://www.avsforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=2165469
> 
> The attachment was made to the fascia so that no roof damage (Water leaks from my A/C will cost me $200,000.00) can happen.
> 
> The main concern will be the number of splitters, that can be overcome by an amp or a distribution amplifier, mine is a eight way.
> 
> SHF


----------



## tylerSC

Superman07 said:


> Thanks. So you’d recommend one of the indoor solutions SFischer1 recommended as well for a starting point?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Start first with an indoor or attic antenna. Perhaps Clearstream 4V or 4MAX UHF loop antenna with VHF dipole. Add a Winegard LNA200 preamp at the antenna. If you have a long cable run or multiple splits, then perhaps a Channel Master distribution amp further down the line. The DC signals are strong and should be no issue. If you want to pull in Baltimore, it may require a separate higher gain antenna, such as Winegard 7694.

Also one other choice for compact flat panel UHF antenna with VHF dipole and indoor stand, consider Antop 800SBS specific model with built in preamp. Works very well. Best price may be HSN with NEW20 promo code, but also on Amazon. The Antop 800SBS is the better version, as the 400BV does not have a built in preamp but rather an inline amp instead.


----------



## SFischer1

tylerSC said:


> Start first with an indoor...


I have a FM antenna pinned to the east west wall.

Depending on where I am in the room, the music is clear or distorted from a transmitter to the east. I listen only to one station. (KDFC)

-----------------------------------

Beware that any indoor antenna may be affected by items in the room including you. 

Some stations may not be affected, but you can bet that the one you wish to receive will be.

-----------------------------------

Attic antennas may be problematic depending on the metal up there and the placement of the antenna.

I had a four bay bow tie antenna with an amp on a rotor.

Before the NTSC transmitters were turned off and the ATSC transmitters were much lower on Sutro tower, in the winter I could rotate the antenna 365 degrees and not get a acceptable signal from the station I wished the most. The best direction was 180 degrees away from the transmitter.

That and the VHF-Hi/Lo antenna still are in my attic, silenced by the new metal roof.

My outdoor antenna is preforming just fine for all the stations I wish to receive, well until the repack started.

My desktop antenna is now in a room that I seldom am in and is receiving the problematic station's translator just fine.

If you are not going to watch much TV and are willing to move the indoor antenna around to find a sweet spot then go with an indoor antenna.

SHF


----------



## rabbit73

*Three Different Indoor Antenna Locations for the Same Channel*



SFischer1 said:


> Beware that any indoor antenna may be affected by items in the room including you.
> 
> Some stations may not be affected, but you can bet that the one you wish to receive will be.
> 
> -----------------------------------
> 
> If you are not going to watch much TV and are willing to move the indoor antenna around to find a sweet spot then go with an indoor antenna.
> 
> SHF


 I agree; the location of an indoor antenna is critical.

If you look at my avatar to the left you will see a scan with my signal level meter for channel 13. I had put the antenna in the most convenient location, but I wasn't able to receive that channel because of indoor multipath reflections. This is what the TV Diagnostics Screen looked like; the picture is frozen, with many errors:










The best location was in the middle of the room in a high traffic area (of course it was), but I couldn't leave it there:



















The second best was in the corner, where it is now.




























Happy Thanksgiving to the AVS Forum members!


----------



## SFischer1

rabbit73 said:


> I agree; the location of an indoor antenna is critical.
> 
> ...
> 
> Happy Thanksgiving to the AVS Forum members!


I thought my Kodak DC260 camera (199x Purchase) was dead, but it just was discharged Ni-Mh batteries. 

The antenna placement picture is not the most important picture.

The tuner is a Silicon Dust HDHR4-2US and it is connected to my router using the 110V AC Power Line.

In the room with my Ethernet Router there is a matching 110V AC Power Line adapter.

That was how I went from 3 Mbs DSL to 12 Mbs cable which was then upped to 25 Mbs then 65 Mbs and finally 75 Mbs with increases in cost of course.

The change from 25 Mbs to 65 Mbs broke the 110V AC Power Line adapter. The internet would just disappear for five minutes ever so often. Cable technician keep saying get rid of the 110V AC Power Line adapter. But the internet comes in front downstairs while my router is rear upstairs.

I finally got the TV cable that I installed ~ 46 years ago to carry the internet up to my router / HDTV room.

Bottom line, with an Ethernet network connected to your HTPC you can put a remote antenna anywhere there is 110 V AC.

SHF


----------



## jkeldo

If anyone is still using or looking for the RCA UHF/VHF input antenna amplifier, I noticed in that thread the other day that there is a new RCA model with only one input. So I would assume if you need the older one, you might want to check now. Here is my posting as I purchased one around four months ago which is still the old model with a very similar product number:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...r-preamp-technical-review-5.html#post58928248


----------



## labjr

rabbit73 said:


> The log periodic array is becoming more common for shortwave broadcast to allow for changes in frequency.
> 
> As far as why did Antennas Direct choose that design for the DB4e, you would have to ask the engineer they hired to design it. It was probably the same engineer, Dr. John Ross, who came up with the tapered loop for their UHF antennas, which has good gain and a wide beamwidth. The DB4e was one of their first antennas that was designed for the then smaller 14-51 UHF band.


I'm thinking 80mm was the "radius" of the inner loop? I printed it and measured the two circles and that makes sense but I'm not sure since that may be a rough sketch and not drawn perfectly to scale.


----------



## rabbit73

labjr said:


> I'm thinking 80mm was the "radius" of the inner loop? I printed it and measured the two circles and that makes sense but I'm not sure since that may be a rough sketch and not drawn perfectly to scale.


 That is possible; the original drawing came from the patent application. Often, the finished product isn't quite the same as described in the patent. You would have to open the antenna to measure the loop.










http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html


----------



## labjr

rabbit73 said:


> You would have to open the antenna to measure the loop.


Has anyone done that? And has anyone replicated balun or combining networks for Clearstream models? The 2MAX would be a good start since it's a popular model and also indoor friendly.


----------



## rabbit73

labjr said:


> Has anyone done that? And has anyone replicated balun or combining networks for Clearstream models? The 2MAX would be a good start since it's a popular model and also indoor friendly.


 Well, Ken Nist, MSEE (ret), KQ6QV who created the hdtvprimer site had to open it up for the above photo, but he didn't give any measurements of the UHF loop.

Forum member *holl_ands* modeled the C2, and gave these dimensions:
DIMENSIONS Per *ADTech* and user *freezer*:
Inner Loop Diameter 6-1/4" (158.75 mm), Outer Loop Diameter 8-5/8" (219.075 mm) with 1/2" Overlap at Feedpoint.
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/hivhfuhftaperedloopc2v



ADTech said:


> You know, sometimes the best way to get accurate information is to simply ask someone who has it. I'm not hard to find...
> 
> *UHF tapered loop dimensions, all versions:*
> ID 6.25" , ~ 16 mm (should be 160 mm)
> OD 8 5/8", ~ 22 mm (should be 220 mm)
> Element gap between feed points - 3/32", ~ 5 mm (should be 2.38 mm)
> Element width at feed point, 1/2", ~ 13mm
> Feed point spacing, 1 7/16", ~ 37 mm


https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/18...clearstream-c2-c4-dimensions.html#post2467962

So, you were correct: "80 mm" is the radius, not the diameter as stated in the patent application.

There is also a thread:
*Clearstream C2 and C4 Dimensions*
https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/18...ment/228937-clearstream-c2-c4-dimensions.html










This is the circuit board for the CS4 MAX:


----------



## rabbit73

Dr. John Ross designed the UHF tapered loop for the ClearStream antenna. Here is his presentation:
http://www.johnross.com/SBE_2008.pdf

and here are some of his comments on the design:


> JER
> 12-16-2009, 09:14 AM
> Its been known for long time that thick elements have wider bandwidth than thin elements. The developers of the Radion and Channel Master antennas were apparently trying to take advantage of that concept.
> 
> I was not aware of either of these elements until the photos were posted here by EV. They look remarkably similar to the first thick wide flat loop element that I prototyped early in the Clearstream development process. You can see a photo of mine in a paper I presented to the SBE in Pittsburgh last year. The paper is on my website if you're interested.
> 
> In the case of the Clearstream antennas we were aiming for a very compact loop - reflector combo with good gain and VSWR across the post 2009 UHF band. In my research, I discovered that element thickness only tells part of the story and I ultimately found the tapered loop element to be better than loops that were uniformly thick like the one above.
> 
> The thing surprises me the most is that these photos show that the thick element concept was known and used early on in television. Yet, the vast majority of the modern indoor loop elements that I've seen are made with thin wires and employ manually controlled tuning networks to peak signal on one or a few channels rather than trying to receive the whole band at once. The manual adjustments and narrow tuneable bandwidth haven't made any sense to me since the introduction of the remote control. Its been a mystery to me how such antennas could be sold to people that didn't want to get out of the easy chair to adjust the antenna every time they changed channels when a simple wide thick element would have eliminated most of that hassle.
> 
> Looking back, I suppose the other advantage with the early generation receivers may have been that the tuneable loops might have acted as a pre-selector to improve performance. The preselector idea can still be an advantage today, but the convenience of the remote control and channel surfing generally should take first priority in the design.
> 
> A tuneable bandwidth antenna that is compatible with channel surfing can be realised using smart antenna technology. I have designed and demonstrated such antennas but the market is not quite ready yet since most TV's don't yet have a smart antenna interface.
> 
> As a final note, I don't think the existence of the Radion element detracts from or otherwise invalidates the innovations in the Clearstream antennas. Had the notion of the optimised compact tapered loop - reflector combination been obvious then it wouldn't have taken until now to see such items available in the market place!


*Clearstream antennas*
https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81...as-direct-ota-antennas-gear-8.html#post885276




> *JER3*
> 2009-02-21, 01:20 PM
> 
> I'm the engineer that developed the Clearstream geometries for Antennas Direct. I don't usually have time to post to forums but I do monitor some of them from time to time looking to see feed back from consumers on my designs. I saw this thread I thought I'd take a few minutes to try to clear some of the FUD (fear uncertainty & doubt).
> 
> First of all, you don't need to worry, Antennas Direct is not trying to hide anything by showing a plot of directivity. The curves are generated using state of the art computer simulation software (Remcom X-FDTD). We are not afraid to show curves. That should be encouraging to you since many consumer grade antennas don't come with any tech data whatsoever.
> 
> We also test antennas using network analyzers (e.g. HP 8510C) and do field testing using spectrum analyzers (HP 8569A and HP 8566B) and consumer grade receivers. Antennas Direct is really doing serious antenna engineering and is trying to innovate in a field that has not changed substantially in a long time. We're a small company and sometimes the science and marketing get out of sync but rest assured we're doing all we can to get you good products.
> 
> The Clearstreams are based on the classic idea of a full wave loop in front a reflector. This was known for years to produce about 9 dBi gain (infinite reflector) if you could properly feed it.
> 
> Note that there is nothing wrong with specifying gain in dBi as oppose to dBd. The manufacturer isn't just trying to inflate numbers. dBi is actually the most commonly used reference in most of the professional antenna literature (e.g. IEEE). It is also the figure provided by all the simulation packages. The dipole reference is fine if you're doing field or lab testing. Directivity equals gain dBi for an antenna with no loss (not including mismatch). The simulator was configured to assume perfect electric conductors hence the plot labeled with directivity instead of gain. I'll talk to the marketing folks and see if I can get a new one with gain on the label...
> 
> I applied computer simulations, optimization algorithms and lab testing to figure out how to size and taper the design with a small reflector so that it would perform well across the whole post 2009 UHF DTV band. UHF is targeted since that's where 75% of the stations are transmitting and since most consumers want smaller rather than than larger antennas.
> 
> My simulations and tests have shown the C1 generally offers performance as good as a two element bow tie in about half the volume. The C2 is comparable to DB4 across UHF but smaller and better on VHF.
> 
> If you look at properly executed simulations you will find that the bow-ties don't reach peak performance until the frequency is above 700 MHz. This is because they were engineered for the old band allocations. The Clearstreams achieve even balanced performance across the new band allocation. The C1 and C2 offer a horizontal plane 1/2 power beam width of about 70 degrees. Unlike many antennas (e.g. bow-ties) whose beams get narrower as the frequency is increased, the beam width of the Clearstreams is almost constant across the band. This makes pointing and installation easier for most consumers.
> 
> The Clearstreams also generally work better on VHF. This is a characteristic of the loop geometry and the fact that there is a phase cancellation effect for frequencies below design passband on the four element bow-tie arrays.
> 
> We do not specify VHF performance on the C1, C2 and C4 because it is below the design passband and the PCB baluns do not produce a balanced antennas at low frequencies. The latter however enables reception from what is known as feedline radiation. While this is usually avoided for transmitting antennas, on receive it can in fact enhance reception on the out-of-band (i.e. not in design window) frequencies. The effect is quite dependent on installation specifics so your "mileage may vary" but this is still sufficient for many consumers near the VHF stations.
> 
> For those wanting to receive weaker VHF stations a separate VHF only antenna with a diplexer should solve the problem. Antennas Direct C5 is a derivative of the C1 for high VHF and should be on the market in a few months.
> 
> I know this is a bit long for a first time post but I hope that you find it helpful.
> 
> I'll try to check in again from time to time.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> John Ross, Ph.D., P.E.


----------



## old tv guy

Yes the Radion loop antenna is well known among all antenna engineers and is a 75 year old design.


----------



## labjr

Thanks for the information. I'm not sure how much of it I could replicate, but it will keep me busy for a while.


----------



## rabbit73

I'm glad you found something useful, labjr.

Radion loop antenna:


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## labjr

Obviously AD antennas were designed with some engineering talent not just a gimmick. The fine details are probably an important part of getting the most performance out of it. However I'd still like to try making something. Maybe experiment with a single tapered loop and a piece of coax and some kind of balun. Do you know what the impedance for a single loop is?


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## rabbit73

My guess is about 100 ohms. Dr. Ross used an ordinary 4:1 (300 to 75) balun for his prototypes.


----------



## Steve347

*Stellar Labs #30-2435 FM Hoop Antenna*

Based on discussions here I purchased one of these for my omni-directional antenna update. I am currently using an ancient Channel Master 8200U with a rotor. 

When I received the antenna I was surprised to see that the directional pattern differed significantly from @holl_ands posted simulations and I am wondering why that is. A couple of things stick out. The first being the metallic boom that bisects the loop. The second thing that I notice is that active (and only) element is grounded to the boom.

I have attached a file with the printed documentation that came with the antenna. The directionality plot is not labeled as to which direction are the lobes and nulls. Does anyone else have a better idea of the actual gain and directionality of this antenna?

BTW, I currently have it connected to my stereo setup and it is sitting on top of a book case. The results, while not spectacular are better than the 8200U in a random off-axis direction which is aimed for TV reception.


----------



## rabbit73

I find it interesting that the box says:


> Take advantage of free HD television programming





Steve347 said:


> When I received the antenna I was surprised to see that the directional pattern differed significantly from @*holl_ands* posted simulations and I am wondering why that is.


The pattern scale for the 2435 isn't marked; the difference probably isn't that great. 












> The first being the metallic boom that bisects the loop.


That might make a difference.


> The second thing that I notice is that active (and only) element is grounded to the boom.


That's OK; it's a zero voltage point in the top half-wave section. It will help to protect the front end of your FM tuner from static discharge if the mast is grounded.



> Does anyone else have a better idea of the actual gain and directionality of this antenna?


It looks very much like holl-ands'.
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/omni/doublehoop

An Omni sacrifices gain for an omni pattern. If you need more gain in a certain direction, you will have to use a Yagi. 



> BTW, I currently have it connected to my stereo setup and it is sitting on top of a book case. The results, while not spectacular are better than the 8200U in a random off-axis direction which is aimed for TV reception.


Sounds like it's doing OK.


----------



## richart

Steve347 said:


> *Stellar Labs #30-2435 FM Hoop Antenna*
> 
> Based on discussions here I purchased one of these for my omni-directional antenna update. I am currently using an ancient Channel Master 8200U with a rotor.
> 
> When I received the antenna I was surprised to see that the directional pattern differed significantly from @holl_ands posted simulations and I am wondering why that is. A couple of things stick out. The first being the metallic boom that bisects the loop. The second thing that I notice is that active (and only) element is grounded to the boom.
> 
> I have attached a file with the printed documentation that came with the antenna. The directionality plot is not labeled as to which direction are the lobes and nulls. Does anyone else have a better idea of the actual gain and directionality of this antenna?
> 
> BTW, I currently have it connected to my stereo setup and it is sitting on top of a book case. The results, while not spectacular are better than the 8200U in a random off-axis direction which is aimed for TV reception.


The boom probably has some effect on the pattern, but I would guess it is minor. Where the element is attached to the boom is a voltage null, no problem. By definition, omnidirectional indicates it should receive equally well in all directions so there shouldn't be any directionality to speak of (as long as its mounted in a horizonal plane.) I would suspect an antenna of this design has no gain, probably 2 or 3 dB loss as compared to a dipole since it is omnidirectional.

Edit: Oops, I was too quick on the trigger and didn't scan further down the thread. Rabbit73 had already answered.


----------



## rabbit73

That's OK; both answers are useful for Steve. Actually, our answers are quite similar.


----------



## labjr

rabbit73 said:


> That is possible; the original drawing came from the patent application. Often, the finished product isn't quite the same as described in the patent. You would have to open the antenna to measure the loop.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html


The older patent from 2009 seems like a more accurate rendition of the tapered loops. The ends are parallel like they appear to be in the actual antenna. However, still uncertain the dimensions are drawn proportionally accurate. And may have changed since 2009.


----------



## rabbit73

labjr said:


> The older patent from 2009 seems like a more accurate rendition of the tapered loops. The ends are parallel like they appear to be in the actual antenna. However, still uncertain the dimensions are drawn proportionally accurate. And may have changed since 2009.


 Thank you for the design patent number US D598,434; I didn't have that. There is no text that gives measurements.

You did ask about the single loop; the older drawing has a wider gap. I would make the gap at the feedpoint smaller like just one loop of the double loop C2 because the new UHF band is lower in frequency.

I enlarged the loops in the design patent pdf to 157%. The OD was 220 mm; the ID 160 mm.

I don't know if the dimensions are the same in the new MAX series.


----------



## labjr

Here's a video of a teardown of a single loop with reflector screen. I wonder if they changed the loop design in 2015? Maybe the reason for the new patent?


----------



## rabbit73

labjr said:


> Here's a video of a teardown of a single loop with reflector screen. I wonder if they changed the loop design in 2015? Maybe the reason for the new patent?
> 
> https://youtu.be/SxlMyutnO3A


Good find; Danny took it apart.

The design in the patent was for theory; the design in the actual antenna was for practical construction. A design patent actually gives Antennas Direct more protection.

The balun printed circuit board seems to show a direct connection for the coax with an extra track on one side connected to the shield, but it's hard to tell without more detail.


----------



## labjr

Yeah, I'd like to see the detail of that PCB. It looks similar to the Balun PCB in the picture you posted the other day.


----------



## tylerSC

There is a new version of the double loop version now called Clearstream MAX-V. It is sold at Walmart and directly from Antennas Direct. Don't know if they have modified the size of the loops or changed the balun. And they still sell the Clearstream 4MAX at Best Buy, and other versions such as 2MAX, 2V, and 4V are still sold from Antennas Direct and various vendors. The versions with the reflector screen should help add more gain, while the versions without the reflector are more bidirectional. And there is a new double loop version of the Clearstream Elipse for indoor spaces. 

I use the original Clearstream 4 without the dipole in my attic, and Winegard LNA200 preamp. It is a strong UHF antenna in a compact size that fits better within the rafters. Whatever the technical specs may be, I have found the various Clearstream antennas to be strong performers, especially for UHF. I use a UVSJ from Radioshack to splice in my VHF signals with a separate set of rabbit ears.


----------



## labjr

Thanks,

I saw a comment by Antennas Direct Tech support, which I can't find now, that said the Max-V was the same antenna as the 2Max. I bought a 2MAX at Walmart on clearance. But I still want to build one and compare. Replicating the balun is the difficult part.

Also Alibaba has a couple antennas that look like Clearstream antennas.


----------



## MSZ 007

Hi Rabbit. Happy new year!

So I finally set up my antenna (HD Stacker) on a 20' mast this week and the results were somewhat mixed. I was able to receive KNSD, KSWB, and KPBS however they are unwatchable with several drop outs every few minutes. KNSD is by far the most reliable among the three. My TV also picked up KFMB but it does not come in. On my TV's signal meter they range from no signal (about 40%) all the way up to 80% in some cases. The SNR read out on the screen ranges from 0 to up to 25. Here's a screen shot of what I've been typically receiving. Any thoughts?


----------



## rabbit73

tylerSC said:


> There is a new version of the double loop version now called Clearstream MAX-V.


Thanks for your post about the new MAX-V.










The VHF dipole is held by clamps to the rear of the UHF loops. There doesn't seem to be a physical connection for the dipole; it must be capacitive coupling like the NAROD VHF elements of a Gray-Hoverman antenna.










The feedline is connected to the double loop by a push-on connector.










There isn't a reflector available for the MAX-V which would increase the forward gain and reject multipath reflections.


----------



## rabbit73

labjr said:


> I saw a comment by Antennas Direct Tech support, which I can't find now, that said the Max-V was the same antenna as the 2Max.


Antennas Direct posted this reply for their video:


> The MAX-V is the same antenna as the 2MAX. There are limited installation components, so you only buy what you need for your antenna setup. Meaning, the antenna comes with a wall bracket and adjustable mounting hardware for a mast - you would need to purchase a mast, coaxial cable, and if you would like to use the antenna indoors, we have a base stand that is sold separately as well.


----------



## rabbit73

MSZ 007 said:


> Hi Rabbit. Happy new year!
> 
> So I finally set up my antenna (HD Stacker) on a 20' mast this week and the results were somewhat mixed. I was able to receive KNSD, KSWB, and KPBS however they are unwatchable with several drop outs every few minutes. KNSD is by far the most reliable among the three. My TV also picked up KFMB but it does not come in. On my TV's signal meter they range from no signal (about 40%) all the way up to 80% in some cases. The SNR read out on the screen ranges from 0 to up to 25. Here's a screen shot of what I've been typically receiving. Any thoughts?












Happy New Year!

The channels that you are able to receive are your strongest listed channels at your less than ideal OTA location.

Are you using a preamp?

Are the SD channels able to clear the peak of your roof?

Thank you for the photo. Fox looks good, but the SNR is just barley enough for a lock.










Since your signals are so weak and you have severe terrain interference, the only possible improvement I can think of is a little more UHF antenna gain if you are already using a preamp and the SD signals clear the roof. As I mentioned before, maybe the Antennas Direct 91XG or the Solid Signal HDB91X.

Some antenna locations on your lot might have stronger signals. It would be difficult to try another location, but you can try small changes in antenna height at the present location. Even a difference of 6" can make a difference in signal strength because multipath signals have a non-uniform wavefront.


----------



## jkeldo

labjr said:


> Thanks,
> 
> I saw a comment by Antennas Direct Tech support, which I can't find now, that said the Max-V was the same antenna as the 2Max. I bought a 2MAX at Walmart on clearance. But I still want to build one and compare. Replicating the balun is the difficult part.
> 
> Also Alibaba has a couple antennas that look like Clearstream antennas.


Also note that Antennas Direct is acquiring Mohu:

https://www.nexttv.com/news/top-ota-makers-combine-as-antennas-direct-buys-mohu


----------



## MSZ 007

Thanks for getting back to me Rabbit.

To answer your questions, I set up my antenna at about 20' on a push up style mast so it was able to clear my roof's peak when pointed to the south. I'm currently using a preamp which is a Channel Master 7778 Titan 2. I recently noticed the 7778 model was not meant for fringe areas. Do you think if I got the 7777 model would there be an improvement? I'm thinking not since my cabling for my tests is very simple. Its just a 75' coax from the preamp straight into the back of my TV. Once I get things dialed in, I plan on using the prewired coax through the house which has more connections, etc. 

I noticed the signal goes out once the SNR is at 15 on my TV so yeah 17 is cutting it close. I've decided to return the HD Stacker and will give the AD 91XG a try. Also, I'm not tied to keeping my mast to the north side of my house. I could put it on the south side of the house and see what I get there. The house to the south of me is also a one story and its roof is lower in elevation than mine. The only hurdle is the two story two houses over. It's also lower but its peak is a little higher than my neighbor. Above that, it's a clear shot to the south with no trees.

My only issue is that I don't have a good way of supporting my mast with guy wires. It can only be mounted to my facia and the base with a ground mount. The fascia at the edge of my roof is about 9' high so if I have a 20' mast, 11' feet above would be unsupported. I have a concrete tile roof and don't want to mount anything (guy wires, struts, bracing, etc) to it. So ideally I'd like to just get away with a mast that's self supporting or maybe go with a larger diameter pipe.

Good to know on the multipath issues. I'm pretty sure that's what I'm experiencing since the signal fluctuates quite a bit. Slightly changing the antenna's angle from side to side did not help much so I'll try raising/lowering it in small increments next time. I'll definitely give that a try once the 91XG arrives.


----------



## Calaveras

MSZ 007 said:


> I'm currently using a preamp which is a Channel Master 7778 Titan 2. I recently noticed the 7778 model was not meant for fringe areas. Do you think if I got the 7777 model would there be an improvement? I'm thinking not since my cabling for my tests is very simple. Its just a 75' coax from the preamp straight into the back of my TV. Once I get things dialed in, I plan on using the prewired coax through the house which has more connections, etc.



I don't know where you read that the 7778 is not for fringe areas and the 7777 is. There really is no such distinction. The required preamp gain is determined by how much loss you have between the antenna and the TV. With your basic setup the 7778 gain is fine, fringe area or not. If you get to using your pre-wired coax you'll need to estimate how much total loss there is. If you have strong signals a preamp is not required and can make things worse. 

Your SNR of 17 dB is too low in most situations for reliable reception. I like to see at least 20 dB for some headroom and mid 20's is better.


----------



## rabbit73

MSZ 007 said:


> To answer your questions, I set up my antenna at about 20' on a push up style mast so it was able to clear my roof's peak when pointed to the south. I'm currently using a preamp which is a Channel Master 7778 Titan 2. I recently noticed the 7778 model was not meant for fringe areas. Do you think if I got the 7777 model would there be an improvement? I'm thinking not since my cabling for my tests is very simple. Its just a 75' coax from the preamp straight into the back of my TV. Once I get things dialed in, I plan on using the prewired coax through the house which has more connections, etc.


 Thank you for the update. The 7778 should be sufficient for that length of coax. If the signals are too weak after splitting, you can add a distribution amp. If you do get a 7777, don't get version 2 with a single antenna input and 30 dB gain; it's not reliable. The new 7777V3 is unproven, but I think it will be more reliable.












> I'm not tied to keeping my mast to the north side of my house. I could put it on the south side of the house and see what I get there. The house to the south of me is also a one story and its roof is lower in elevation than mine. The only hurdle is the two story two houses over. It's also lower but its peak is a little higher than my neighbor.


It is possible that the signals are better on the south side of your house, but I think it would be better to stay on the north side back from the two story two houses over.



> My only issue is that I don't have a good way of supporting my mast with guy wires. It can only be mounted to my facia and the base with a ground mount. The fascia at the edge of my roof is about 9' high so if I have a 20' mast, 11' feet above would be unsupported. I have a concrete tile roof and don't want to mount anything (guy wires, struts, bracing, etc) to it. So ideally I'd like to just get away with a mast that's self supporting or maybe go with a larger diameter pipe.


I agree.


> Good to know on the multipath issues. I'm pretty sure that's what I'm experiencing since the signal fluctuates quite a bit. Slightly changing the antenna's angle from side to side did not help much so I'll try raising/lowering it in small increments next time. I'll definitely give that a try once the 91XG arrives.


I hope you will see an improvement with the 91XG. Your desired signals are rated as Tropo, so they will never be 100% reliable.

https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=30021


----------



## Calaveras

MSZ 007 said:


> My only issue is that I don't have a good way of supporting my mast with guy wires. It can only be mounted to my facia and the base with a ground mount. The fascia at the edge of my roof is about 9' high so if I have a 20' mast, 11' feet above would be unsupported. I have a concrete tile roof and don't want to mount anything (guy wires, struts, bracing, etc) to it. So ideally I'd like to just get away with a mast that's self supporting or maybe go with a larger diameter pipe.


The solution to this is get a couple of Rohn 25 tower sections. See attached image. The short tower is a rock and provides an easy and safer way than a ladder to get up on the roof.


----------



## statmanmi

*Mast/mount ideas*



MSZ 007 said:


> My only issue is that I don't have a good way of supporting my mast with guy wires. It can only be mounted to my facia and the base with a ground mount. The fascia at the edge of my roof is about 9' high so if I have a 20' mast, 11' feet above would be unsupported. I have a concrete tile roof and don't want to mount anything (guy wires, struts, bracing, etc) to it. So ideally I'd like to just get away with a mast that's self supporting or maybe go with a larger diameter pipe.


Hi MSZ 007,

I'll offer some unproven-by-me mast mounting thoughts from my novice mind--although I've been reading lots of other people's posts in the last 3 years. In my case, the home I own now came with a tripod antenna mount on the garage roof. But the time will come when the asphalt shingles will need to be replaced, and it has me thinking that I may want to go with a fascia mount along the peak at the end of the structure. Thus, similar to what I'm perceiving your thoughts to be.

The rule of thumb I've read is that the maximum unsupported mast height (thus, without guy wires) is 10 feet. With a concern then that if one is in a windy area, 10 feet might allow for too much sway in the mast.

This YouTube caught my eye recently: 




Two thoughts that the gentleman expressed were:

* He has the mast 3 feet deep in the ground.
* The antenna is within reach when he stands on the roof--he mentions being 7 feet above the peak.

My best guess is that 3 feet in the ground should be the minimum. Seems like 4 feet would match the length some antenna ground rods are made.

With those ideas, I'd revisit your hypothetical that 20 feet of mast would provide you 11 feet of (unsupported) clearance. For that, I'm picturing you weren't going to bury any of the mast in the ground. If instead you go with 20 feet total, consider having 7 feet above the peak of the roof, which will allow you to bury 4 feet below ground level (using your 9 foot roof height mentioned above). 

I might be all wet with these thoughts. Perhaps someone with past hands-on experience will share further ideas.


Also, for a fascia mount, this YouTube came up in my search: 




I tracked down the business's website to be: https://antennaservicesinc.com/

In the video, the narrator mentions about how their design has the two U-bolts to better stabilize than a single one that could slide some with the mast. That also sounds good to novice me. Not an endorsement of this particular product by any means, just a further thought that has me thinking.

Good luck! ~~ Statmanmi


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


>



I don't think this overlapping rays problem gets as much attention as it deserves. Comparing my old location where the ridge with overlapping rays was 1/2 mile away and my new location where the ridge is 34 miles away, it appears that moving the antenna when the ridge is close by can significantly impact the SNR while there's no change with the distant ridge.

Here at my new location I have a channel 30 and a channel 32 that are roughly the same strength from the same transmitter site. The channel 30 SNR rarely goes above 24 dB while the channel 32 SNR never budges from 31 dB. Antennas as much as 100' apart show no change. The antenna used makes no difference either. 

At my old location with the 1/2 mile away ridge, antennas 90' apart showed large differences in SNR between the two. Different antennas didn't show any difference.

The XG91 made a big improvement if the multipath was coming from the rear but made no difference if the multipath was coming from overlapping rays.


----------



## Calaveras

statmanmi said:


> * The antenna is within reach when he stands on the roof--he mentions being 7 feet above the peak.
> 
> My best guess is that 3 feet in the ground should be the minimum. Seems like 4 feet would match the length some antenna ground rods are made.



I don't think burying a galvanized steel mast 3' in the ground is a very good idea. It will eventually rust being in permanent contact with damp soil. In 50 years every mast or tower installation I have seen has been insulated from direct contact with the ground. Even a simple post hole type base for a galvanized steel pipe filled with concrete needs to have the bottom filled with a few inches of rock to prevent direct soil contact and facilitate drainage.

For a mast with eave brackets there's no reason for the mast to be 3' in the ground. The point at which the base is secured to the ground only prevents the base from kicking out. It doesn't have to be far in the ground to do that. Instead of burying the mast, it's much better to dig a small hole, perhaps 1' square and 1' deep and poor concrete. A couple 60 lb bags of Quikcrete will do the trick. After it's dry, drill a couple of holes for a mast base and secure it with lag bolts and expansion anchors.

Attached is an image of the base for my 20' TV antenna tower. The concrete is about 6" deep and 2 foot square. I used 3 lag bolts and expander anchors to secure the base to the concrete base. The ground rod is 8'.

Here are a couple of base solutions for Rohn Push-up masts.

https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/roh-gtmbl

https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/roh-um50


----------



## richart

statmanmi said:


> Two thoughts that the gentleman expressed were:
> 
> * He has the mast 3 feet deep in the ground.
> * The antenna is within reach when he stands on the roof--he mentions being 7 feet above the peak.
> 
> My best guess is that 3 feet in the ground should be the minimum. Seems like 4 feet would match the length some antenna ground rods are made.


Gosh, I really don't like the idea of burying a mast of any type in the ground or in concrete...the thin metal will deteriorate over time. I have a 30 ft galvanized push-up mast. I use a commercial ground mount. The plate portion of the mount effectively supports the weight of the mast and the post prohibits the mast from moving laterally. My mast is also bracketed at the eaves of the house and has a set of black dacron rope guys at the top. It has been up for several years with no problems and supports a large UHF and a large Hi-VHF antenna.


----------



## rabbit73

New amp from Channel Master
https://www.channelmaster.com/MicroAmp_Indoor_Antenna_Amplifier_p/cm-7776.htm










The MicroAmp is included with the FLATenna+ Amplified indoor TV antenna:
https://www.channelmaster.com/FLATenna_Amplified_Indoor_TV_Antenna_p/cm-4001hdbwa.htm


----------



## tylerSC

rabbit73 said:


> New amp from Channel Master
> https://www.channelmaster.com/MicroAmp_Indoor_Antenna_Amplifier_p/cm-7776.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The MicroAmp is included with the FLATenna+ Amplified indoor TV antenna:
> https://www.channelmaster.com/FLATenna_Amplified_Indoor_TV_Antenna_p/cm-4001hdbwa.htm


Supposed to be for use with an indoor antenna but seems like noise figure may be a bit high. Less than 2.0db is usually considered better.


----------



## CHASLS2

richart said:


> Gosh, I really don't like the idea of burying a mast of any type in the ground or in concrete...the thin metal will deteriorate over time. I have a 30 ft galvanized push-up mast. I use a commercial ground mount. The plate portion of the mount effectively supports the weight of the mast and the post prohibits the mast from moving laterally. My mast is also bracketed at the eaves of the house and has a set of black dacron rope guys at the top. It has been up for several years with no problems and supports a large UHF and a large Hi-VHF antenna.


I have had one stuck in the ground for 40 years and it is still fine as wine. But it is very thick wall pipe about 3mm thick.


----------



## tylerSC

rabbit73 said:


> Antennas Direct posted this reply for their video:


Looks like the placement of the VHF dipole may be slightly different, but the UHF loops may be the same. And the 2MAX comes with an indoor stand, but the MAX-V does not; it must be purchased separately.


----------



## labjr

tylerSC said:


> Looks like the placement of the VHF dipole may be slightly different, but the UHF loops may be the same. And the 2MAX comes with an indoor stand, but the MAX-V does not; it must be purchased separately.


Looking at my 2MAX, I noticed the dipole is a separate assembly which the UHF loops assembly plugs into. Thus it appears the loops and dipole each have their own balun and signals are combined in the dipole assembly. Not sure how it's done in the MAX-V?


----------



## rabbit73

labjr said:


> Looking at my 2MAX, I noticed the dipole is a separate assembly which the UHF loops assembly plugs into. Thus it appears the loops and dipole each have their own balun and signals are combined in the dipole assembly. Not sure how it's done in the MAX-V?


The VHF dipole has no direct connection; its signals are picked up on the UHF loops by capacitive coupling like the NARODS for VHF on the Gray-Hoverman antenna.

my post:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...-related-hardware-topic-599.html#post59102798


----------



## labjr

I saw your earlier post. I thought you were speculating about the capacitive coupling? Do you know if anyone has confirmed this to be true?


----------



## rabbit73

labjr said:


> I saw your earlier post. I thought you were speculating about the capacitive coupling? Do you know if anyone has confirmed this to be true?


I have been doing antenna experiments since I was 8; I'm now 86. I have built and tested many ham and TV antennas, so let's call it an educated guess. If it isn't what I say it is, how do you think the VHF signals from the dipole get to the feedline?

The only person I know that can confirm it is forum member *ADTech*, who works for Antennas Direct. Maybe he will see this and give an answer.



















https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/186-antenna-research-development/125094-definition-narod.html










The concept is described by Gary Breed in his patent 
*US5489914A*

METHOD OF CONSTRUCTING MULTIPLE-FREQUENCY DIPOLE OR MONOPOLE 
ANTENNA ELEMENTS USING CLOSELY COUPLED RESONATORS

He uses the terms closely coupled and electromagnetically coupled. I have used the term capacitive coupling because the ends of the elements (high voltage, low current) are close together. If only the centers of the elements (high current, low voltage) were close together, the coupling would be primarily inductive, as described by Les Moxon G6XN in his book _HF Antennas for all Locations_. The ends of the elements (high voltage, low current) in the Moxon Rectangle antenna are capacitively coupled. The safest general term would be electromagnetically coupled. The spacing determines the amount of coupling.


----------



## labjr

You're the same age my dad would've been! He was also a ham.

If that's true then this would appear to be easier to replicate than the 2MAX. Now I'm wondering exactly how the coupling was done? Just need to see a teardown.


----------



## Steve347

*REPACK OPTIMIZED ANTENNAS?*

Has anyone seen or heard mention of any repack optimized antennas? I would think that the repack would make them physically slightly larger that current designs. Too bad the repack frequencies didn't go the other way or all you would need would be a pair of wire cutters/hacksaw!


----------



## rabbit73

Steve347 said:


> *REPACK OPTIMIZED ANTENNAS?*
> 
> Has anyone seen or heard mention of any repack optimized antennas? I would think that the repack would make them physically slightly larger that current designs. Too bad the repack frequencies didn't go the other way or all you would need would be a pair of wire cutters/hacksaw!


Forum member holl_ands, who does computer modeling of antennas, has done a few designs for the DIYer.

https://imageevent.com/holl_ands

https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay

*New UHF Spectrum antennas?*
https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/186-antenna-research-development/288187-new-uhf-spectrum-antennas.html

majortom's post of design for new UHF band:
https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/18...87-new-uhf-spectrum-antennas.html#post3098283


----------



## Steve347

rabbit73 said:


> Forum member holl_ands, who does computer modeling of antennas, has done a few designs for the DIYer.
> 
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands
> 
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay
> 
> *New UHF Spectrum antennas?*
> https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/18...lopment/288187-new-uhf-spectrum-antennas.html


Thanks for the info. I was hoping (and waiting) for a commercial solution since this will end up outside on top of the house exposed to the elements.


----------



## rabbit73

Steve347 said:


> Thanks for the info. I was hoping (and waiting) for a commercial solution since this will end up outside on top of the house exposed to the elements.


You are going to have to wait a long time for any manufacturer to make a UHF antenna optimized for 14 to 36. As of now, there are only a few designs for the 14-51 UHF band. The Antennas Direct DB8e and DB4e were optimized for 14 to 51.

No manufacturer is going to produce an antenna for 14-36 unless they think they can make a profit on it.

The closest I know of is the XB16A yagi from the UK for their 21 to 37, which is approx equal to our 14-37:










A yagi has a steeply rising gain curve; the gain curve for a bowtie antenna would be flatter which would give more gain at the low end.


----------



## labjr

If the FCC repack is taking OTA spectrum, why would current antenna designs need to be modified? Are they moving stations to new part of the spectrum?

Maybe someone can point to a detailed explanation with cool graphs etc.? A search seems to turn up only basic simple explanations of the process.


----------



## labjr

rabbit73 said:


> You are going to have to wait a long time for any manufacturer to make a UHF antenna optimized for 14 to 36. As of now, there are only a few designs for the 14-51 UHF band. The Antennas Direct DB8e and DB4e were optimized for 14 to 51.
> 
> 
> No manufacturer is going to produce an antenna for 14-36 unless they think they can make a profit on it.


So everything above 36 has been taken for 5G! That isn't right! Eventually, corporations will be coming for the rest of the public airwaves!


----------



## Steve347

rabbit73 said:


> You are going to have to wait a long time for any manufacturer to make a UHF antenna optimized for 14 to 36. As of now, there are only a few designs for the 14-51 UHF band. The Antennas Direct DB8e and DB4e were optimized for 14 to 51.
> 
> No manufacturer is going to produce an antenna for 14-36 unless they think they can make a profit on it.


I guess that this brings up another question... What kind of performance increase could be expected if the design was optimized for 14-36 vs. 14-51?

BTW, Looks like AD is blowing out DB4Es at $60 including shipping. Don't know if this is a good deal or not?


----------



## rabbit73

labjr said:


> If the FCC repack is taking OTA spectrum, why would current antenna designs need to be modified?


The current designs would need to be modified to give more gain at the low end of UHF. The gain curve of a UHF antenna is not constant at all frequencies; it rises as the frequency increases. The max gain of the current designs is above channel 36. If you make the antenna a little larger, this will move the peak of the gain curve down in frequency.












> Are they moving stations to new part of the spectrum?
> 
> Maybe someone can point to a detailed explanation with cool graphs etc.? A search seems to turn up only basic simple explanations of the process.


Yes, the previous 14-51 for UHF TV has been reduced to 14-36. The cellular interests wanted more spectrum, so they went to congress. Congress said sure, and ordered the FCC to hold a reverse auction which took 38 to 51 away from TV broadcast and gave it to the cellular interests. Channel 37 is reserved for other services, like radio astronomy. The TV broadcasters using 38 to 51 were offered payment to surrender their license, move to 14-36, or move to VHF.


----------



## rabbit73

labjr said:


> So everything above 36 has been taken for 5G! That isn't right! Eventually, corporations will be coming for the rest of the public airwaves!


They will probably try.


----------



## rabbit73

Steve347 said:


> I guess that this brings up another question... What kind of performance increase could be expected if the design was optimized for 14-36 vs. 14-51?
> 
> BTW, Looks like AD is blowing out DB4Es at $60 including shipping. Don't know if this is a good deal or not?












The increase in gain at the low end of UHF would be dramatic as the peak of the gain curve moves down in frequency to the left when the antenna is made larger. The size of the elements is increased as you lower the frequency, just like organ pipes must be longer for the low notes.

The DB4e is an excellent UHF antenna. It would be a good deal if it is the right antenna for your location.


----------



## labjr

I'm about 24 miles west of Needham MA where most of the Boston stations broadcast from. But there's a hill about a mile from here and trees etc. I've never tried OTA reception from my location. I probably won't be trying to set up an antenna here for some time yet. I have helped a few friends set up for OTA reception in various locations locally. There always seems to be a problem with pixelation, which IMO, is the biggest problem that discourages more people from OTA reception.

To me ATSC 3.0 is attractive because the signal is supposed to be more immune to multi-path interference and also the ability to stream it throughout the building using the right tuner box.


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> The current designs would need to be modified to give more gain at the low end of UHF. The gain curve of a UHF antenna is not constant at all frequencies; it rises as the frequency increases. The max gain of the current designs is above channel 36. If you make the antenna a little larger, this will move the peak of the gain curve down in frequency.



If the gain curves for these UHF antennas are referenced at each frequency along the curve to a dipole or an isotropic source, then the curves are misleading. A channel 14 dipole will generate 3.3 dB more signal than a channel 51 dipole in the same RF field because of the dipole factor. I don't know how the models handle the dipole factor. The dipole factor is much of the reason that the high VHF transmitters are so much lower power than UHF transmitters.


----------



## Calaveras

Steve347 said:


> I guess that this brings up another question... What kind of performance increase could be expected if the design was optimized for 14-36 vs. 14-51?


If the overall antenna size is kept the same then optimizing will only produce a small gain increase. In order to get a significant gain increase the antenna will have to be much larger.


----------



## rabbit73

Calaveras said:


> If the gain curves for these UHF antennas are referenced at each frequency along the curve to a dipole or an isotropic source, then the curves are misleading.


Computer models give results in dBi, to compare the predicted performance of different designs.



> A channel 14 dipole will generate 3.3 dB more signal than a channel 51 dipole in the same RF field because of the dipole factor.


Yes, but an antenna designed for the UHF band is usually modeled at a frequency at the center of the band. This will make the antenna less efficient at channel 14 which is away from the design frequency, causing the gain curve to fall at the low end. The gain curve will rise above the design frequency because the elements are longer than a halfwave.



> I don't know how the models handle the dipole factor. The dipole factor is much of the reason that the high VHF transmitters are so much lower power than UHF transmitters.


I'm not sure how the computer models deal with the antenna factor. I don't do modeling and prefer to make performance measurements of antennas.

My guess is that the antenna factor only needs to be considered when using the field strength in dBuV/m just before the signal touches the antenna (as in converting dBuV/m to dBm). The model includes the antenna factor because the antenna size is scaled to frequency and includes the feedpoint where signal power is measured.

dBuV/m to dBm calculator
http://www.g4axx.com/
click on Downloads
click on dBuV to dBm calculator (xlsx 20kB)



















*Trip in VA* uses a conversion factor of 130 for dBuV/m to dBm for his rabbitears.info Signal Search Map reports for UHF signals. For VHF signals, he adds a negative correction factor (to field strength; signal margin remains unchanged IIRC) to allow for the higher noise levels on VHF-High and VHF-Low. This makes them listed a little lower in the report.

This document shows that the FCC Planning Factors include the Antenna Factors for UHF, VHF-High, and VHF-Low. It also allows a higher noise figure for a VHF tuner, but it does not allow for the higher ambient noise level on VHF, which is why Trip added a correction factor to his signal reports that use the FCC TVStudy software.

Federal Communications Commission FCC 05-199 
Report To Congress 
The Satellite Home Viewer Extension And Reauthorization Act Of 2004 
Study Of Digital Television Field Strength Standards And Testing Procedures 
https://transition.fcc.gov/oet/info/documents/reports/SHVERA/SHVERA-FCC-05-199.pdf


----------



## rabbit73

Calaveras said:


> If the overall antenna size is kept the same then optimizing will only produce a small gain increase. In order to get a significant gain increase the antenna will have to be much larger.


Yes, when an antenna design is scaled to a new frequency, ALL dimensions are multiplied by the same scaling factor, so the overall size will change.
https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/3098227-post10.html

https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/3098283-post12.html


----------



## DeweyNC

The forums new format is gonna be a BIG change.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/43-forum-operations-center/3118198-what-forum-software.html#post59143586


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> Yes, when an antenna design is scaled to a new frequency, ALL dimensions are multiplied by the same scaling factor, so the overall size will change.
> https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/3098227-post10.html
> 
> https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/3098283-post12.html



Obviously that's true but that's not what I meant. There is a tradeoff for gain and frequency coverage for a given sized antenna. You can get a little more gain for a narrowband antenna over a wideband antenna when both are the same size. If you're reducing the frequency coverage from channels 14-51 to 14-36 but not changing the size, the 14-36 optimized antenna should have a little more gain. As always though, for the 14-36 antenna to have significantly more gain, it'll need to be much larger.


----------



## rabbit73

Calaveras said:


> Obviously that's true but that's not what I meant. There is a tradeoff for gain and frequency coverage for a given sized antenna. You can get a little more gain for a narrowband antenna over a wideband antenna when both are the same size. If you're reducing the frequency coverage from channels 14-51 to 14-36 but not changing the size, the 14-36 optimized antenna should have a little more gain. As always though, for the 14-36 antenna to have significantly more gain, it'll need to be much larger.


I agree.


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> Computer models give results in dBi, to compare the predicted performance of different designs.


They could just as well use dBd. I don't like dBi for the same reason most of the ham radio world doesn't use it. It's an antenna that can't be built and inflates the gain of real antennas.




rabbit73 said:


> Yes, but an antenna designed for the UHF band is usually modeled at a frequency at the center of the band. This will make the antenna less efficient at channel 14 which is away from the design frequency, causing the gain curve to fall at the low end. The gain curve will rise above the design frequency because the elements are longer than a halfwave.


After thinking about this for a couple of days I don't think this is true. I don't think the models consider the dipole factor at all. They simple model a configuration of pieces of metal over a frequency range in frequency steps.




rabbit73 said:


> My guess is that the antenna factor only needs to be considered when using the field strength in dBuV/m just before the signal touches the antenna (as in converting dBuV/m to dBm). The model includes the antenna factor because the antenna size is scaled to frequency and includes the feedpoint where signal power is measured.
> 
> dBuV/m to dBm calculator
> http://www.g4axx.com/
> click on Downloads
> click on dBuV to dBm calculator (xlsx 20kB)


This conversion makes sense. Start with a 1 meter long antenna in an RF field of a certain strength (dBuV/m) and convert that to the actual signal the antenna will generate at its terminals.


----------



## rabbit73

Calaveras said:


> They could just as well use dBd. I don't like dBi for the same reason most of the ham radio world doesn't use it. It's an antenna that can't be built and inflates the gain of real antennas.


Yeah, that's why QST doesn't allow gain figures in antenna ads.


> I don't think the models consider the dipole factor at all. They simple model a configuration of pieces of metal over a frequency range in frequency steps.


I understand your point.


> This conversion makes sense.


I couldn't find the link to the last converter I used; I like this one better.


----------



## Primestar31

The newest Channel Master LTE filter is listed as now going down to 600Mhz, passing 5 - 599Mhz. Which means right about at channel RF36. Not sure if it'll kill channel 36 or not, and I actually have a channel using that. I just ordered one at $19 and free shipping. Not sure how you can really TELL if LTE is affecting your antenna, but $19 isn't that bad to try it out.

https://www.channelmaster.com/TV_Antenna_LTE_Filter_p/cm-3201.htm


----------



## rabbit73

Primestar31 said:


> The newest Channel Master LTE filter is listed as now going down to 600Mhz, passing 5 - 599Mhz. Which means right about at channel RF36. Not sure if it'll kill channel 36 or not, and I actually have a channel using that. I just ordered one at $19 and free shipping. Not sure how you can really TELL if LTE is affecting your antenna, but $19 isn't that bad to try it out.
> 
> https://www.channelmaster.com/TV_Antenna_LTE_Filter_p/cm-3201.htm


Something is not right. If they actually did change the filter, they should have changed the model number. They didn't change the model number of the 7777 preamp when they changed the design.

The description does say 

*Electrical Specifications*

Frequencies Pass 5 - 599 MHz 
Frequencies Block 600 - 2000 MHz 

But if you look at the Product Sheet download it says:
LTE FilterSpecifications 
Frequencies Pass: 5 - 699 MHz 
Frequencies Block: 700 - 2000 MHz

That is correct for the 14-51 band.

If it really is 5-599, that would mess up 35 and 36.
35: 596 to 602
36: 602 to 608.

My test of the filter I bought:










If the CM-3201 filter has been redesigned to attenuate transmitters above channel 36, I would need to test it as I did previously. Just trying it out to see if it helps to improve reception isn't sufficient; it's not conclusive.


----------



## Primestar31

Primestar31 said:


> The newest Channel Master LTE filter is listed as now going down to 600Mhz, passing 5 - 599Mhz. Which means right about at channel RF36. Not sure if it'll kill channel 36 or not, and I actually have a channel using that. I just ordered one at $19 and free shipping. Not sure how you can really TELL if LTE is affecting your antenna, but $19 isn't that bad to try it out.
> 
> https://www.channelmaster.com/TV_Antenna_LTE_Filter_p/cm-3201.htm


I received this in the mail today, a couple hours ago. It's the new version as pictured on the page above. Unfortunately, I can't install it right now. My antenna is on a 25' mast above my garage, and I have to get on the roof to install this. The roof still has 6" of snow and ice on it, and no way I'm going to try getting on that anytime soon. I can't take a fall from that height anymore. I do have a channel on RF36, WAQP, and LightTv is on .3, and we watch that. So, not sure if this filter will hurt my reception of that channel. I'll know once I can install it after a good melt.

Does anybody know what sort of interference, LTE can cause to signal levels? Not sure if I'm even having any issues I could attribute to possible LTE.


----------



## lifespeed

Calaveras said:


> If the overall antenna size is kept the same then optimizing will only produce a small gain increase. In order to get a significant gain increase the antenna will have to be much larger.



The impedance match would improve significantly, which is as important as gain and compounds the improvement.


----------



## rabbit73

Primestar31 said:


> Does anybody know what sort of interference, LTE can cause to signal levels? Not sure if I'm even having any issues I could attribute to possible LTE.


If you have LTE interference, it is most likely to interfere with reception of UHF channels. It would probably affect signal quality rather than signal strength.

I see Light TV listed as a subchannel of WAQP:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WAQP

This is a rabbitears.info report based on your location in 2015; I don't know if you have moved since then:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=51721

Ideally, the filter should be inserted between the antenna and the preamp, but that wouldn't be safe to do now. You could try inserting it between the preamp power inserter and the tuner input as a test.

I'm still not convinced that CM has modified the filter for 14-36 reception.


----------



## Primestar31

rabbit73 said:


> If you have LTE interference, it is most likely to interfere with reception of UHF channels. It would probably affect signal quality rather than signal strength.
> 
> I see Light TV listed as a subchannel of WAQP:
> https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WAQP
> 
> This is a rabbitears.info report based on your location in 2015; I don't know if you have moved since then:
> https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=51721
> 
> Ideally, the filter should be inserted between the antenna and the preamp, but that wouldn't be safe to do now. You could try inserting it between the preamp power inserter and the tuner input as a test.
> 
> I'm still not convinced that CM has modified the filter for 14-36 reception.


We did move 2~ miles South-East of our old house in the woods, and signal levels are a bit better than the old house in the middle of the woods. I'm still using a Y10-7-13 antenna for WJRT-12 which is RF12, and a HDB91x for all my UHF channels. They are on a 25' mast pipe setup.

The Y10-7-13 goes through a MCM Electronics FM filter, then into the VHF side of a Radio Shack UVSJ. The HDB91x is pointed at WEYI-25, which is basically the center of the arc for UHF towers, and almost directly in a line beyond the low powered stations WFFC-LD & WFKB-LD. That goes into a Kitztech KT200-Coax preamp, then into the power passing UHF side of the Radio Shack UVSJ. Then Rg-6 quad-shield coax to my Tivo and tv set.

I get all my channels pretty solid, including the two low powered ones WFFC-LD & WFKB-LD, which are 32~ miles from me, as the crow flies.


----------



## Calaveras

lifespeed said:


> The impedance match would improve significantly, which is as important as gain and compounds the improvement.



That's possible but it's not a guarantee. The SWR has to be pretty bad to impact the gain much. An SWR of 2.0 has a mismatch loss of 0.5 dB, SWR of 2.7 has a mismatch loss of 1.0 dB and an SWR of 3.0 has a mismatch loss of 1.25 dB. Above 3.0 the mismatch loss climbs rapidly. It's a pretty bad antenna that has an SWR above 3.0. An SWR improvement of 3.0 to 2.0 only picks up 0.75 dB.


----------



## lifespeed

Calaveras said:


> That's possible but it's not a guarantee. The SWR has to be pretty bad to impact the gain much. An SWR of 2.0 has a mismatch loss of 0.5 dB, SWR of 2.7 has a mismatch loss of 1.0 dB and an SWR of 3.0 has a mismatch loss of 1.25 dB. Above 3.0 the mismatch loss climbs rapidly. It's a pretty bad antenna that has an SWR above 3.0. An SWR improvement of 3.0 to 2.0 only picks up 0.75 dB.



Plus the interaction with the SWR of the tuner, plus a slight improvement in gain. While 0.75dB is a small number, in linear power that's nearly 20% more. Let's say the antenna re-tuning nets you better match and better gain to the tune of 1.5dB total, probably a reasonable estimate. That's 41% more power to the tuner, something that is easily noticeable by a viewer with a marginal signal strength/quality station.


It won't be a miracle, but it could easily be noticed. The only obstacle is the manufacturer's applying their cost/benefit analysis. Are people still buying their old-design antennae, or will the first one to market with an optimized design gain market share from savvy buyers?  Over in the UK they've already designed a nice Yagi called *XB16A* that coincides with our new UHF band. I'll probably replace my 91XG with one of these when I feel the need to bring the mast down for rework to add VHF reception for the SF bay area repack and ATSC 3.0 Silicondust tuners. Which don't exist yet.


----------



## rabbit73

Primestar31 said:


> We did move 2~ miles South-East of our old house in the woods, and signal levels are a bit better than the old house in the middle of the woods. I'm still using a Y10-7-13 antenna for WJRT-12 which is RF12, and a HDB91x for all my UHF channels. They are on a 25' mast pipe setup.


 Thank you for the coordinates for your better OTA location. Here is a new report:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=51782










and here is a new FM report, but I don't know how accurate it is:
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/3d418601c3/Radar-FM.png


----------



## mattdp

Primestar31 said:


> Does anybody know what sort of interference, LTE can cause to signal levels? Not sure if I'm even having any issues I could attribute to possible LTE.


LTE interference is an issue, obviously, because the 600, 700 and 800 MHz cell bands used to be part of the UHF TV spectrum. Hence, antennas and amplifiers do a good job at receiving them.

When you're close enough to a cell tower (1-2 mi or less), the level is strong enough that it can overload the amplification in your system (particularly high gain preamps). 

In mild cases, it degrades the signal-to-noise ratio, but not enough to cause breakups.
In moderate cases, you'll notice random dropouts.
In severe cases, it will completely wipe out reception of a channel, as the signal-to-noise ratio drops completely below the decoding threshold.

The easiest way to tell (save for a spectrum analyzer) is simply to install an LTE filter before the first amplification stage and see what difference it makes, if any. Usually in the presence of LTE overload, the signal meter readings on a TV will jump around wildly, whereas you'd normally see very slight changes from moment to moment.

One example case from my files: 45 mi from both full-power and 15kW LP stations, running a preamp and UHF/VHF-Hi yagi's on the roof - LTE tower 75 degrees off-axis, probably 1 mi away. Without an LTE filter, full-power's all scanned in strong (but not stable) level, some LPs were exhibiting constant breakups, some didn't scan in. Installed LTE filter, SNRs improved across the board - full-power's are stable, all LPs scanned in with none breaking up, including a weaker station that had previously not scanned sitting at a stable 17dB SNR. 

Not a universal rule, but I've observed LTE interference worsen in the evening, presumably as the network is more congested.


----------



## Primestar31

I'm about 2.5 miles away from my closest LTE tower, and I have to aim nearly right through it on a bearing to get all my UHF stations. I don't get any wild signal swings or dips, but on my couple of lower power stations, (WFFC & WFKB) I get slight audio dips frequently. Enough to be a little annoying. Though those are broadcasting from the same tower 32 miles away, owned by the same company. So perhaps those audio dips are an artifact of their transmission. It's hard to say.

Those two stations are broadcasting on RF17 and RF19 respectively though.


----------



## Primestar31

Primestar31 said:


> I received this in the mail today, a couple hours ago. It's the new version as pictured on the page above. Unfortunately, I can't install it right now. My antenna is on a 25' mast above my garage, and I have to get on the roof to install this. The roof still has 6" of snow and ice on it, and no way I'm going to try getting on that anytime soon. I can't take a fall from that height anymore. *I do have a channel on RF36, WAQP, and LightTv is on .3, and we watch that. So, not sure if this filter will hurt my reception of that channel. I'll know once I can install it after a good melt.*
> 
> Does anybody know what sort of interference, LTE can cause to signal levels? Not sure if I'm even having any issues I could attribute to possible LTE.


Ok, I just tried the new LTE filter on the back of my 2013 LG tv set after a PM I received from another person here that mentioned trying it that way. It did NOT drop signal or quality level on WAQP-49, which broadcasts on RF36. Checking all my other receivable channels, it didn't affect any of them adversely as far as I can tell, and the two low powered ones WFFC & WFKB seemed to have come UP a couple points. It only took me about a minute to screw the filter on, so atmospheric changes shouldn't have affected anything that quickly.

So, that at least gives me hope that once I can install it at the output of my actual antenna, and before the Kitztech KT-200 preamp, that I don't have to worry about it killing WAQP's signal, or even dropping it enough to cause issues with reception.

Question: Can LTE transmissions affect any tv channels BELOW RF36~, if the tower is close enough to you, say within 1 mile? Not sure if subharmonics can apply to LTE broadcasts.


----------



## mattdp

The LTE signal itself is not the issue - it is (we presume) filtered and strictly limited to its allocated frequency spectrum, otherwise the cell carrier has defective equipment/engineering and is in violation of FCC rules.

The issue is when it enters an amplifier at a strong enough level to be driving the amp into overload. The amp starts clipping, intermodulating, creating images/subharmonics, you name it. In an amp with separate UHF/VHF stages, it will likely only affects only UHF (all UHF channels - both above and below 36), but it could probably trash VHF too on a single stage amp. It's seen more on weaker channels and it may be worse depending on the frequency - YMMV.

I have personally witnessed the Kitztech's overloading from LTE.


----------



## labjr

mattdp said:


> The LTE signal itself is not the issue - it is (we presume) filtered and strictly limited to its allocated frequency spectrum, otherwise the cell carrier has defective equipment/engineering and is in violation of FCC rules.


How do you go about proving that a cell company is in violation? And what can you actually do about it? Seems to me, cell companies rule the spectrum and get what ever they want. Interfering with someone's TV reception is the last thing they care about.


----------



## mattdp

For the record, every case of cell interference I've dealt with was fixed by installing a filter prior to the first amplifier. It's the consumer receiving equipment (in the presence of strong cell signal), not the cell signal itself causing the issue.

I have never heard of a case of a cell tower spewing garbage out-of-band. They've got pretty sophisticated monitoring systems, not to mention teams of engineers that do design & monitoring. Other cell carriers in the area and probably TV stations would be affected too.

But... let's say you did actually have a cell site that was malfunctioning. You'd take a directional antenna and spectrum analyzer to isolate the tower in question and actually observe said out-of-band interference. Photographs, videos and other documentation will certainly help your case. I'd first contact the operator of said site and explain the situation. I would presume they would be highly motivated to fix the issue. If, for whatever they were delinquent in addressing it, then I would level a complaint with the FCC - who could levy all kinds of fines and whatnot.


----------



## hdtvluvr

So, I'm confused. Does the LTE interference potentially affect all users with OTA antennas or only for users who are using amps on their antennas?


----------



## mattdp

LTE interference can affect anyone using OTA, with or without amplification.

In my experience as an installer, I find it's mostly an issue when using high gain preamps in close proximity to cell towers. But if you're close enough, it could potentially swamp out the IF in the receiver. 

I've got a spectrum analyzer, so I know for sure if/how much of an issue it is. For the average consumer, testing with/without a filter is really the only practical way to tell for sure. At $20 and with little insertion loss, it really isn't going to hurt to have one in-line and not "need" it/


----------



## Larry Kenney

Matt... I just read your antenna installation guide and wanted to compliment you on the nice, easy to read and understandable writing... nice job!

Larry


----------



## labjr

mattdp said:


> For the record, every case of cell interference I've dealt with was fixed by installing a filter prior to the first amplifier. It's the consumer receiving equipment (in the presence of strong cell signal), not the cell signal itself causing the issue.
> 
> I have never heard of a case of a cell tower spewing garbage out-of-band. They've got pretty sophisticated monitoring systems, not to mention teams of engineers that do design & monitoring. Other cell carriers in the area and probably TV stations would be affected too.
> 
> But... let's say you did actually have a cell site that was malfunctioning. You'd take a directional antenna and spectrum analyzer to isolate the tower in question and actually observe said out-of-band interference. Photographs, videos and other documentation will certainly help your case. I'd first contact the operator of said site and explain the situation. I would presume they would be highly motivated to fix the issue. If, for whatever they were delinquent in addressing it, then I would level a complaint with the FCC - who could levy all kinds of fines and whatnot.


I contacted the FCC about a local pirate FM station. It took over a year for anything to happen. Nobody ever followed up with me. I'm not even sure it was my complaint that led to any action. And after some searching I found they'd been shut down multiple times before only to pop up on another frequency. So I don't have much faith in the system.


----------



## rabbit73

labjr said:


> I contacted the FCC about a local pirate FM station. It took over a year for anything to happen. Nobody ever followed up with me. I'm not even sure it was my complaint that led to any action. And after some searching I found they'd been shut down multiple times before only to pop up on another frequency. So I don't have much faith in the system.


You did the right thing. The FCC resources are budget limited; their effort must be prioritized.


----------



## hdtvluvr

I have been using a 4228 8 bay antenna for years in the attic. It is standing up against a flat wall facing south. It has done well and I could get the channels desired. Lately, I've been having trouble with channels 3 (UHF 28) and 5 (VHF). I know the 4228 isn't recommended for channel 5 but it has done very well for me for some reason. Other channels above and below UHF 28 are great. It's winter so leaves are not a current issue. Anyway, I'm looking for another antenna that will be better. Size is an issue and it must go in the attic.

Here are the channels desired and they are between 163 and 190 degrees from my location:
3 (UHF 28)
5 (VHF 5)
10 (UHF 29)
13 (UHF 13)
24 (UHF 25)
30 (UHF 31)

We have had a couple cell towers put up south of us with the closest I'm aware of being within 2 miles south and I have ordered the LTE filter. There may be other towers physically closer in other directions.

Here is the rabbit ears report:

Report


----------



## rabbit73

hdtvluvr said:


> I have been using a 4228 8 bay antenna for years in the attic. It is standing up against a flat wall facing south. It has done well and I could get the channels desired. Lately, I've been having trouble with channels 3 (UHF 28) and 5 (VHF). I know the 4228 isn't recommended for channel 5 but it has done very well for me for some reason. Other channels above and below UHF 28 are great. It's winter so leaves are not a current issue. Anyway, I'm looking for another antenna that will be better. Size is an issue and it must go in the attic.


Hello, hdtvluvr. Thank you for the signal report with the channels sorted by virtual (AKA display) channel number.
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&sort=disp&unit=uVm&study_id=53396&opkey=C










If you are using the original CM4228, it has some useful gain for RF channel 13. Scroll to the bottom of this page:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

The 4228 doesn't do well with RF channel 5. You have been receiving it because it is very strong for you. If 5 has become a problem lately, I suspect an increase in the local noise level, which is high on VHF-Low and reduces the SNR.

I suggest you try a set of rabbit ears as a test for 5 connected directly to the tuner. Each side should be extended to 35 inches with wires if necessary for a total width of 70 inches. Or, you can make a folded dipole, 70 inches long. If 5 is then better, you can combine the channel 5 antenna with the 4228 using a HLSJ.

Channel 28 could be an LTE problem; the filter test will tell. The coax should be grounded with a grounding block. It's not required with an indoor antenna, but when you are using a filter, interference can go around the filter if the coax isn't grounded. If the LTE filter doesn't help, suspect multipath reflections; try a slightly different antenna location.


----------



## hdtvluvr

rabbit73 said:


> .......
> 
> I suggest you try a set of rabbit ears as a test for 5 connected directly to the tuner. Each side should be extended to 35 inches with wires if necessary for a total width of 70 inches. Or, you can make a folded dipole, 70 inches long. If 5 is then better, you can combine the channel 5 antenna with the 4228 using a HLSJ.
> 
> Channel 28 could be an LTE problem; the filter test will tell. The coax should be grounded with a grounding block. It's not required with an indoor antenna, but when you are using a filter, interference can go around the filter if the coax isn't grounded. If the LTE filter doesn't help, suspect multipath reflections; try a slightly different antenna location.


There isn't a water pipe anywhere near this antenna nor an easy path to outside and a grounding rod which I assume should technically be connected to the main house ground. Any other suggestions? And why isn't there a possibility of LTE affecting 29 & 31?


----------



## rabbit73

For a test, you can make a temporary connection to ground to a cold water pipe that you know is properly grounded or to the ground terminal of a properly wired 3-wire receptacle.



















It is possible to have interference on just one UHF channel from a subharmonic or from an intermodulation interference product.

A spectrum analyzer is the best tool to hunt for interference, but most people don't have one. You can use a $20 SDR dongle with free open-source spectrum analyzer software. Otherwise, you have to do trial-and-error testing. This is an indoor antenna I made for channel 3:










This is an SDR dongle scan of VHF-Low showing a channel 3 signal and a very high noise level:










There could be something in the signal path for that signal which has a different azimuth. Even if the leaves are gone, the tree is still there.

There could be a problem with the transmitted CBS signal. If your question is moved to the Memphis thread by the moderator, you can ask the guys there.


----------



## lifespeed

hdtvluvr said:


> There isn't a water pipe anywhere near this antenna nor an easy path to outside and a grounding rod which I assume should technically be connected to the main house ground. Any other suggestions? And why isn't there a possibility of LTE affecting 29 & 31?



I suggest you ground your coax near the antenna. While it may not be required for lightning protection, it is helpful for signal integrity, and a house ground should be fine so long as it is at the same potential as the tuner (no stupid house wiring problems).


----------



## hdtvluvr

rabbit73 said:


> For a test, you can make a temporary connection to ground to a cold water pipe that you know is properly grounded or to the ground terminal of a properly wired 3-wire receptacle.
> .....





lifespeed said:


> I suggest you ground your coax near the antenna. While it may not be required for lightning protection, it is helpful for signal integrity, and a house ground should be fine so long as it is at the same potential as the tuner (no stupid house wiring problems).


So can connecting to a 3-wire receptacle be a permanent solution? Getting to a water pipe will be just as difficult as getting to a ground rod outside excluding bonding it to the main house ground.

What is "the same potential as the tuner"? Does that mean the same outlet?


----------



## rabbit73

*Equipment Leakage Current*



hdtvluvr said:


> So can connecting to a 3-wire receptacle be a permanent solution? Getting to a water pipe will be just as difficult as getting to a ground rod outside excluding bonding it to the main house ground.


Well, it's not ideal, but it's adequate for the LTE test if the receptacle is properly wired. Each receptacle of a surge suppressor strip connected to a 3-wire receptacle is grounded that way.

There is another reason why I think it is a good idea to ground the coax shield with a grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground, even with an indoor antenna. I have had three close calls with electrical shock, so I bought a leakage current tester to check AC operated equipment.










Your antenna coax is connected to AC operated equipment. All AC operated equipment has leakage current, even when operating properly. You can't feel it because it is below your threshold of perception. If the AC operated equipment becomes defective, the leakage current can increase and go through your body, creating a shock hazard. 

Most TVs only have a two-wire power plug, so their antenna connector outer thread isn't grounded. I had a Samsung TV that had a 3-wire plug because it could be used as a computer monitor. If you connect the coax shield to a grounding block that is connected to the grounding pin of a plug that is inserted in a properly wired 3-wire receptacle, that would be equivalent to a 3-wire plug on the TV for testing.

If I calibrate a piece of equipment to be used by someone else, I also check it for leakage current.










Initially, in the above temporary setup, the antenna coax shield was not grounded. During testing, when I touched the coax shield and the grounded metal strip at the front edge of the counter, I felt a mild shock. The voltage on the coax was about 40 volts AC. When I investigated further, I discovered that the individual leakage currents of each piece of equipment were added together when all the equipment was connected together; the total leakage current was about 200 µA (microamperes). The individual equipment leakage currents were within safe limits as was the total leakage current, but the shock got my attention. *When I grounded the coax, the leakage current went to zero and there was no longer any voltage on the coax shield.*

A case history:
*Getting A/C voltage on converter box's antenna input !*
https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81...oxes-non-hd-non-recording-69.html#post1457594
*Equipment Leakage Current*
https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81...oxes-non-hd-non-recording-69.html#post1457668



> What is "the same potential as the tuner"? Does that mean the same outlet?


When two pieces of equipment, a piece of equipment and ground, or two grounds are at the same potential, it means there is no difference in voltage between them to shock you.

You will also find the term "difference of potential" used when considering grounding the antenna mast. If you use a separate grounding rod to ground an antenna mast, the code requires that the grounding rod be connected (bonded) to the house electrical system ground with 6 gauge (expensive) copper wire so that there is no difference of potential between the two grounds.


----------



## rabbit73

hdtvluvr said:


> We have had a couple cell towers put up south of us with the closest I'm aware of being within 2 miles south and I have ordered the LTE filter. There may be other towers physically closer in other directions.
> 
> Here is the rabbit ears report:
> 
> Report


Interesting thread about LTE filters on WTFDA Forum
started in 2013 and still running

*Houston, we have a problem.*
http://www.wtfda.org/forums/forum/w...ave-a-problem?8240-Houston-we-have-a-problem=


----------



## Primestar31

Primestar31 said:


> Ok, I just tried the new LTE filter on the back of my 2013 LG tv set after a PM I received from another person here that mentioned trying it that way. It did NOT drop signal or quality level on WAQP-49, which broadcasts on RF36. Checking all my other receivable channels, it didn't affect any of them adversely as far as I can tell, and the two low powered ones WFFC & WFKB seemed to have come UP a couple points. It only took me about a minute to screw the filter on, so atmospheric changes shouldn't have affected anything that quickly.
> 
> So, that at least gives me hope that once I can install it at the output of my actual antenna, and before the Kitztech KT-200 preamp, that I don't have to worry about it killing WAQP's signal, or even dropping it enough to cause issues with reception.
> 
> Question: Can LTE transmissions affect any tv channels BELOW RF36~, if the tower is close enough to you, say within 1 mile? Not sure if subharmonics can apply to LTE broadcasts.



Well, there's still some snow and ice on my garage roof, but there's an area around the outer edges where it's melted off a bit. Just enough that I can sidestep enough of it to get to my antenna mast device connection box at the eves peak line. I just went up there and installed the new version Channel Master LTE filter inline between my HDB91x UHF antenna, and the Kitztech KT-200 preamp.

Everything working just as before, and seems to have actually brought signal levels UP a little bit all around!

So all in all, it appears to have been a well-spent $19 total (free shipping).


----------



## jkeldo

Primestar31 said:


> Well, there's still some snow and ice on my garage roof, but there's an area around the outer edges where it's melted off a bit. Just enough that I can sidestep enough of it to get to my antenna mast device connection box at the eves peak line. I just went up there and installed the new version Channel Master LTE filter inline between my HDB91x UHF antenna, and the Kitztech KT-200 preamp.
> 
> Everything working just as before, and seems to have actually brought signal levels UP a little bit all around!
> 
> So all in all, it appears to have been a well-spent $19 total (free shipping).


You mentioned before that you tried the filter at the connection behind your tv set. Was there a big difference as to signal strength etc. as compared to mounting it on the mast near the antenna?


----------



## Primestar31

jkeldo said:


> You mentioned before that you tried the filter at the connection behind your tv set. Was there a big difference as to signal strength etc. as compared to mounting it on the mast near the antenna?


Yes, about 5~ points higher having it installed right at the antenna, and before my preamp. At the back of the tv set it was only around maybe 2~ points higher.


----------



## jkeldo

Primestar31 said:


> Yes, about 5~ points higher having it installed right at the antenna, and before my preamp. At the back of the tv set it was only around maybe 2~ points higher.


Thanks for that information. I might try one. I do have the Winegard Boost XT LNA-200 preamp that is supposed to have a bandpass filter that covers the 4G channels but that leaves out the newer ones.


----------



## lifespeed

jkeldo said:


> Thanks for that information. I might try one. I do have the Winegard Boost XT LNA-200 preamp that is supposed to have a bandpass filter that covers the 4G channels but that leaves out the newer ones.



Best to replace the amp for one without a filter, not good to cascade filters.


----------



## jkeldo

lifespeed said:


> Best to replace the amp for one without a filter, not good to cascade filters.


I was thinking about that but thanks for the advice. I have a few other amps I've tried which I may use that do not have the LTE filter.


----------



## rabbit73

*NEW CM-3201 LTE Filter Spec Sheet*












Primestar31 said:


> Yes, about 5~ points higher having it {the new CM-3201 LTE Filter} installed right at the antenna, and before my preamp. At the back of the tv set it was only around maybe 2~ points higher.


 I sent an eMail to CM asking about the 3201 LTE filter:


> CM-3201 eMail to CM 2-5-2020
> In Dec of 2018 I purchased a CM-3201 LTE filter for the 14-51 UHF TV band. The filter works well, but the new post-Repack band is now channels 14-36. I see in your current description of the CM-3201 Electrical Specifications:
> Frequencies Pass 5 - 599 MHz
> Frequencies Block 600 - 2000 MHz
> Has the CM-3201 been redesigned for the 14-36 post-Repack band or is that description incorrect?
> If that description is correct, then the filter will harm channels 35 and 36:
> 35: 596 to 602 MHz
> 36: 602 to 608 MHz


Reply from CM:


> Sent: Thu, Feb 06, 2020 11:39 AM
> Feb 6, 9:39 AM MST
> 
> Great question! So I've done some digging for you, and I attached the spec sheet below for the updated LTE filter. I would NOT recommend switching you over to this because I just looked through your channel list and you still have quite a few stations above 36 that have not yet switched over to their new frequency. If you switched out your LTE filter, you would ultimate block all of those channels above RF 36 out. You have a couple of stations in range that are in Phase 8 of the re-pack which should happen mid March and several stations that are Phase 9 which is mid May. I would hold off on changing out any equipment unless any stations above 36 are not of importance. I'm also going to attach a screen shot of the stations in your area for your reference. Thanks!
> 
> Chris (Channel Master Support)












It will attenuate channel 36 a little; the previous version did the same thing to 51.


----------



## finalwish

Can I bind the antenna ground with the solar panel ground and use that instead of having to run copper wire to main house ground?


----------



## MBrown2020

*Help With Hi-VHF Channel Fox 11 WLUK Reception*

Rabbitears Link: https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=56293


I currently have an older Clearstream 2V (See pic) antenna located in my attic (I do not want an outside/roof antenna if possible). I only care about ABC, CBS , NBC , & WLUK-Fox11 channels.
-single story ranch home with plywood roof and asphalt shingles and am connecting the antenna with 20ft of coax to basement and then to a 4 tuner HDHomerun Quatro. 



I currently get ABC, CBS, & NBC no problems, but Fox 11 is very sketchy sometimes (See tuners picture). I learned that Fox is High-VHF and the clearstream 2V looks like it's not very good with VHF reception having only 1 dipole?


I ordered the EZ HD (see pic) antenna from Denny's TV & Winegard Ya-7000 (see pic) from Amazon. Just wondering if either of these two would be better for Fox11? Is there a better antenna alternative?
Thank you.


----------



## jkeldo

MBrown2020 said:


> Rabbitears Link: https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=56293
> 
> 
> I currently have an older Clearstream 2V (See pic) antenna located in my attic (I do not want an outside/roof antenna if possible). I only care about ABC, CBS , NBC , & WLUK-Fox11 channels.
> -single story ranch home with plywood roof and asphalt shingles and am connecting the antenna with 20ft of coax to basement and then to a 4 tuner HDHomerun Quatro.
> 
> 
> 
> I currently get ABC, CBS, & NBC no problems, but Fox 11 is very sketchy sometimes (See tuners picture). I learned that Fox is High-VHF and the clearstream 2V looks like it's not very good with VHF reception having only 1 dipole?
> 
> 
> I ordered the EZ HD (see pic) antenna from Denny's TV & Winegard Ya-7000 (see pic) from Amazon. Just wondering if either of these two would be better for Fox11? Is there a better antenna alternative?
> Thank you.


I think that the two antennas you ordered are similar as I recall reading that Winegard makes that EZ antenna for Denny's:

http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php?p=59034&postcount=85

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...-related-hardware-topic-553.html#post49297265

I have a Clearstream 2V also which I use experimentally but I use a Clearstream 4 primarily and they're both great antennas. Since you are around 40 miles away from the transmitters according to your report and you only have one problem channel, I was wondering if you ever tried an antenna amplifier? That may be all you need for that one station. I have used the RCA TVPRAMP1E (which sometimes ends with a Z instead) and that works fairly well although some have had an issue with the switch on it. See this post for new model which may or may not be as good:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...r-preamp-technical-review-5.html#post58928248

Also, I am currently using a Winegard Boost XT LNA-200 which has a lower output compared to the RCA so it is not as likely to overload your tv tuner.

Also, VHF is prone to interference so that is another possibility. Here is a reference to some issues regarding that:

http://dennysantennaservice.com/vhf-tv-reception-interference.html


----------



## MBrown2020

jkeldo said:


> Also, I am currently using a Winegard Boost XT LNA-200 which has a lower output compared to the RCA so it is not as likely to overload your tv tuner.
> 
> Also, VHF is prone to interference so that is another possibility. Here is a reference to some issues regarding that:
> 
> http://dennysantennaservice.com/vhf-tv-reception-interference.html



Thanks for the reply. I do have a (See Pic) Channel Master Titan 2 amp (CM 778) laying around that I bought with the antenna years ago, but only just revisited my antenna recently.
Should I try that first?


----------



## jkeldo

MBrown2020 said:


> Thanks for the reply. I do have a (See Pic) Channel Master Titan 2 amp (CM 778) laying around that I bought with the antenna years ago, but only just revisited my antenna recently.
> Should I try that first?


I would if it's not too much trouble. I never tried one of those so I have no direct knowledge of them but I know they made a few different versions. The specs can be found here:

https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=cm-7778

It says 16dB of gain so that should not overload your tv tuner. The main amplifier part should be near the antenna in your attic but the power inserter goes near your tv which I assume the amplifier has but check the instructions. It doesn't hurt to experiment to see if it helps that one problem channel.


----------



## rabbit73

finalwish said:


> Can I bind the antenna ground with the solar panel ground and use that instead of having to run copper wire to main house ground?


You can do it, but it wouldn't be according to code. It should be a separate run. The latest device to ground equipment to the house electrical system ground is called an IBTB (Intersystem Bonding Termination Bar).
https://www.erico.com/catalog/literature/E803S-NAEN.pdf



















The IBTB has a lay-in clamp for the house ground wire which must not be disconnected even for a moment when the house electrical system is energized.

There is a grounding thread on this forum:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/1704881-grounding-antenna-masts-coax-cable.html

It would probably be a good idea to keep the antenna and its wiring away from the solar panels because inverters have been known to cause interference to TV reception.


----------



## rabbit73

MBrown2020 said:


> Rabbitears Link: https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=56293
> 
> I currently get ABC, CBS, & NBC no problems, but Fox 11 is very sketchy sometimes (See tuners picture). I learned that Fox is High-VHF and the clearstream 2V looks like it's not very good with VHF reception having only 1 dipole?
> 
> I ordered the EZ HD (see pic) antenna from Denny's TV & Winegard Ya-7000 (see pic) from Amazon. Just wondering if either of these two would be better for Fox11? Is there a better antenna alternative?
> Thank you.


Thank you for the signal report. Your signals are fairly strong outside, but will be weaker in the attic.

The two antennas you ordered have a little more gain than the C2V dipole for 11. Try them first. If 11 still isn't good enough, add the preamp as suggested by *jkeldo*. If 11 still isn't good enough, you will need an antenna with more VHF gain like the Stellar Labs 30-2475. Combine it with your C2V using a UVSJ (UHF-VHF Separator-Joiner). Find a location for the VHF antenna in the attic that gives the best reception.

An alternative would be to replace the C2V with a Winegard HD7694P.

*Jkeldo* is correct about electrical noise; it can interfere with VHF reception.


----------



## rabbit73

*Attenuation of NEW CM-3201 LTE Filter*










This is the spec sheet for the NEW CM-3201 LTE Filter:










These are my attenuation measurements of the new filter that I bought:


----------



## MSZ 007

Here's an update on my quest for free HDTV. I got the 91XG set up with a CM7777v3 preamp and the results are very much improved. The best signals I've received so far have been with KNSD and KSWB. SNR has been in the mid to upper 20's for both stations. I've also noticed the signals are best once the sun goes down. They will however occasionally go from a really strong signal (SNR 28) to nothing at all about 3-4 times an hour. Also during the local news broadcasts in the evening the signals fluctuate quite a bit. For me day time and evening reception has to improve in order to justify keeping the antenna up. I'll keep trying though!

Right now I found the best location for my antenna to be the southeast corner of my house. The mast is currently set at about 17' high. See attached map.


----------



## bobchase

rabbit73 said:


> This is the spec sheet for the NEW CM-3201 LTE Filter:


Where did you get it? I bought a CM-3201 off of Amazon that said it was sold by Channel Master but received the old version.


----------



## rabbit73

bobchase said:


> Where did you get it? I bought a CM-3201 off of Amazon that said it was sold by Channel Master but received the old version.


 I'm not surprised that Amazon did that to you; it's so typical of them. They want to sell the old stock first.

This reminds me of a similar problem that CM created with the 7777 preamp. They redesigned the 7777 so that it had only one antenna input instead of two, but kept the SAME model number. So then we have had to ask a poster with a reception problem: "Which 7777 do you have?"

Primestar31 said the new filter was available. I looked at the CM website, but wasn't certain about the specs. CM support sent the spec sheet to me by eMail and I ordered the new filter directly from CM:
https://www.channelmaster.com/TV_Antenna_LTE_Filter_p/cm-3201.htm

Amazon still shows the old filter today:
https://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master-Improves-Antenna-Signals/dp/B01JGSC5AO


----------



## labjr

Is an LTE filter recommended for everyone? I think there is a Boston channel on RF channel 35 and I'm less than mile from a Verizon tower.


----------



## rabbit73

labjr said:


> Is an LTE filter recommended for everyone? I think there is a Boston channel on RF channel 35 and I'm less than mile from a Verizon tower.


 An LTE filter should only be used if you have LTE interference to TV reception because it has an insertion loss in the passband that will make your weaker signals even weaker.


You should not use the new CM-3201 if you have any channels above 36 that you want.


----------



## Mike Beranek

*Question: What's the new king of antennas?*

Back many years ago, a gentleman named Ken Nist published a web page that many of us have studied over the years-
www.hdtvprimer.com
This website has great information and is a good place to learn about how antennas work. Mr. Nist's extensive modeling, and subsequent tests by others, produced a pretty clear hierarchy regarding the three 8-bays available at the time:

The Winegard 8800 is great below RF 30 and stinks above that
The Antennas Direct DB-8 (old model) is great above RF 40 and stinks below that
The Channel Master 4228 is more balanced, with good performance from RF 14 all the way to RF 69.

Mr. Nist states, "(The Winegard 8800) is a top performer below channel 30, but it is a dog above channel 50."

So here's my question(s). Given that we are now watching TV only up to RF 36- and everything above that is gone- is the Winegard 8800 the best commercially-available UHF antenna? Or does the DB-8 E (new model) beat it? Does the CM 4228 still compete, given the new freq range? And is the AD 91XG still in this league?


----------



## lifespeed

Mike Beranek said:


> So here's my question(s). Given that we are now watching TV only up to RF 36- and everything above that is gone- is the Winegard 8800 the best commercially-available UHF antenna? Or does the DB-8 E (new model) beat it? Does the CM 4228 still compete, given the new freq range? And is the AD 91XG still in this league?



As far as I know, the best antenna tuned for our band is sold in the UK, although it is possible to arrange reasonable shipping. It is called the XB16A.


----------



## rabbit73

lifespeed said:


> As far as I know, the best antenna tuned for our band is sold in the UK, although it is possible to arrange reasonable shipping. It is called the XB16A.


 The XB16A looks good for our 14-36 UHF Band. Note the gain is given in dBd; add 2.15 to convert to dBi:










For comparison:


----------



## jkeldo

bobchase said:


> Where did you get it? I bought a CM-3201 off of Amazon that said it was sold by Channel Master but received the old version.


I recently ordered directly from Channel Master and also received the old version despite the picture on their website showing the new one. They are sending me another one with a prepaid envelope to send the old one back. Apparently, they have both versions so anyone else ordering may want to check first with them before placing an order to get the exact version you want.


----------



## jkeldo

rabbit73 said:


> I'm not surprised that Amazon did that to you; it's so typical of them. They want to sell the old stock first.
> 
> This reminds me of a similar problem that CM created with the 7777 preamp. They redesigned the 7777 so that it had only one antenna input instead of two, but kept the SAME model number. So then we have had to ask a poster with a reception problem: "Which 7777 do you have?"
> 
> Primestar31 said the new filter was available. I looked at the CM website, but wasn't certain about the specs. CM support sent the spec sheet to me by eMail and I ordered the new filter directly from CM:
> https://www.channelmaster.com/TV_Antenna_LTE_Filter_p/cm-3201.htm
> 
> Amazon still shows the old filter today:
> https://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master-Improves-Antenna-Signals/dp/B01JGSC5AO


I don't think it was an Amazon issue since it says on their website: "Ships from and sold by Channel Master."
The picture does show the old version but since the new one is on the Channel Master site and some reviews indicate the new version, you might imply that they would send that one.

If it said that Amazon sold it or fulfilled the order, then it would be Amazon's fault. I ordered directly from Channel Master and received the old version (see previous post)!


----------



## lifespeed

rabbit73 said:


> The XB16A looks good for our 14-36 UHF Band. Note the gain is given in dBd; add 2.15 to convert to dBi:
> For comparison:



Good plots, thanks. While the DB8e may appear superior to the XB16A just looking at the numbers, these charts don't show directivity. A Yagi antenna has better directivity than a bow tie, so if you have multi-path like we do in the bay area there is a real possibility the bow tie style antennae will perform worse. I had to repurpose my DB4e from San Francisco stations to the closer Fremont stations, as my South San Jose location had too much multipath for the bow tie.


----------



## rabbit73

MSZ 007 said:


> Here's an update on my quest for free HDTV. I got the 91XG set up with a CM7777v3 preamp and the results are very much improved. The best signals I've received so far have been with KNSD and KSWB. SNR has been in the mid to upper 20's for both stations. I've also noticed the signals are best once the sun goes down. They will however occasionally go from a really strong signal (SNR 28) to nothing at all about 3-4 times an hour. Also during the local news broadcasts in the evening the signals fluctuate quite a bit. For me day time and evening reception has to improve in order to justify keeping the antenna up. I'll keep trying though!
> 
> Right now I found the best location for my antenna to be the southeast corner of my house. The mast is currently set at about 17' high. See attached map.


Thank you for making the tests and posting the report. I had hoped that the reception would have shown more improvement and am surprised that reception is better on the south side. I guess it's too much to expect reliable reception with terrain in the signal path and temperature inversions.


----------



## rabbit73

jkeldo said:


> I recently ordered directly from Channel Master and also received the old version despite the picture on their website showing the new one. They are sending me another one with a prepaid envelope to send the old one back. Apparently, they have both versions so anyone else ordering may want to check first with them before placing an order to get the exact version you want.


Thank you for the report.

Using the same model number for both versions is really a bad idea. I had hoped they would have learned that with the 7777 preamps.


----------



## jkeldo

rabbit73 said:


> Thank you for the report.
> 
> Using the same model number for both versions is really a bad idea. I had hoped they would have learned that with the 7777 preamps.


You would think they would change the model numbers. I'm still waiting for the second one to arrive.


----------



## labjr

Yeah, using the same model number causes a lot of confusion.


----------



## nathill

labjr said:


> Yeah, using the same model number causes a lot of confusion.


Might be intentional in order to keep selling old stock.


----------



## DavidES

nathill said:


> Might be intentional in order to keep selling old stock.



Which I'm glad for! I was afraid I was getting the new 600 MHz filter from Amazon from CM after seeing @*rabbit*73 's post. Whew! I either got lucky or the amazon link I clicked on was specific for 700 Mhz cutoff filter. I got that link from @*mattdp* 's guide. Yeah I do wish they had added an extra set of numbers to their model numbers to differentiate.


https://www.amazon.com/Channel-Mast...8ef39725ef8fc4bec2229c17373d58&language=en_US


----------



## MSZ 007

rabbit73 said:


> Thank you for making the tests and posting the report. I had hoped that the reception would have shown more improvement and am surprised that reception is better on the south side. I guess it's too much to expect reliable reception with terrain in the signal path and temperature inversions.


Rabbit -

I have not given up just yet and will keep trying different locations on both north and south sides. Based on my signal strength fluctuations, is that consistent with multi-path issues? Or is it something else? The fluctuations happen on all channels. Signal strength will be great for about 5-10 minutes and then drop out completely for a few seconds to a minute at a time. I can make a video of what I'm seeing if you'd like. 

As far as mounting to the south side, it was just an easier installation. There aren't any obstructions in the SE corner. No tall trees or buildings in the distance. I also didn't have to go as high since I don't have to clear the peak of my roof. The mast is at 18' on that side. The two story house two doors down to the south is also not in play since its roof ridge is about the same height as the house directly next to me. Do you think going a little higher would help though?


----------



## jkeldo

MSZ 007 said:


> Rabbit -
> 
> I have not given up just yet and will keep trying different locations on both north and south sides. Based on my signal strength fluctuations, is that consistent with multi-path issues? Or is it something else? The fluctuations happen on all channels. Signal strength will be great for about 5-10 minutes and then drop out completely for a few seconds to a minute at a time. I can make a video of what I'm seeing if you'd like.
> 
> As far as mounting to the south side, it was just an easier installation. There aren't any obstructions in the SE corner. No tall trees or buildings in the distance. I also didn't have to go as high since I don't have to clear the peak of my roof. The mast is at 18' on that side. The two story house two doors down to the south is also not in play since its roof ridge is about the same height as the house directly next to me. Do you think going a little higher would help though?


I wonder if you are getting LTE interference as that issue has been discussed here recently. I would start with the following post and go down a few more posts for more information:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...-related-hardware-topic-601.html#post59183000


----------



## rabbit73

*Tropospheric Propagation*



MSZ 007 said:


> I have not given up just yet and will keep trying different locations on both north and south sides. Based on my signal strength fluctuations, is that consistent with multi-path issues? Or is it something else? The fluctuations happen on all channels. Signal strength will be great for about 5-10 minutes and then drop out completely for a few seconds to a minute at a time. I can make a video of what I'm seeing if you'd like.


A video might be interesting if you have the time.

There are several factors causing the fluctuations. Your signals are not direct LOS because of terrain interference; they are scattered which causes multipath. But most important, they are Tropo signals, which means they would go off into space and never reach you were it not for Tropospheric Propagation which creates a duct that carries them to your location. 



> The best signals I've received so far have been with KNSD and KSWB. SNR has been in the mid to upper 20's for both stations. I've also noticed the signals are best once the sun goes down. They will however occasionally go from a really strong signal (SNR 28) to nothing at all about 3-4 times an hour. Also during the local news broadcasts in the evening the signals fluctuate quite a bit. For me day time and evening reception has to improve in order to justify keeping the antenna up. I'll keep trying though!


The formation of a duct is dependent upon weather conditions, primarily a temperature inversion, which varies according to a 24-hour cycle. I suggest you look at the video by Gordon West about Tropospheric Propagation. It's about ham radio signals making it all the way from Hawaii to California, but the signals are on frequencies similar to TV signals.
*Gordon West Explains Tropospheric Ducting*

*



*
The formation of the ducts is explained beginning at about 22:02 in the video.


see also:

Tropospheric DX Modes
http://www.dxinfocentre.com/propagation/tr-modes.htm
Most likely: 3) TROPOSPHERIC SUPER-REFRACTION (TrE)
or 4) TROPOSPHERIC DUCTING (TrD), in your case

http://www.mike-willis.com/Tutorial/refraction.htm
Anomalous Propagation
Figure 7 - Surface and Elevated Ducts 

The optical equivalent is a mirage:
https://www.abc57.com/news/skyline-skepticism-the-lake-michigan-mirage

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirage
Superior mirage



> As far as mounting to the south side, it was just an easier installation. There aren't any obstructions in the SE corner. No tall trees or buildings in the distance. I also didn't have to go as high since I don't have to clear the peak of my roof. The mast is at 18' on that side. The two story house two doors down to the south is also not in play since its roof ridge is about the same height as the house directly next to me. Do you think going a little higher would help though?


The general rule is higher is better, but because of layering, there will be hot and cold spots as you move up and down as I showed you earlier. You just have to try it.


----------



## MBrown2020

rabbit73 said:


> Thank you for the signal report. Your signals are fairly strong outside, but will be weaker in the attic.
> 
> The two antennas you ordered have a little more gain than the C2V dipole for 11. Try them first. If 11 still isn't good enough, add the preamp as suggested by *jkeldo*. If 11 still isn't good enough, you will need an antenna with more VHF gain like the Stellar Labs 30-2475. Combine it with your C2V using a UVSJ (UHF-VHF Separator-Joiner). Find a location for the VHF antenna in the attic that gives the best reception.
> 
> An alternative would be to replace the C2V with a Winegard HD7694P.
> 
> *Jkeldo* is correct about electrical noise; it can interfere with VHF reception.



If I go with the Stellar Labs 30-2475 for VHF & my C2V for UHF can I go with Channel Master CM-7778HD Amplify+ Pro (See pic) as the UHF-VHF Joiner for both antennas and then also have it amplify the signal?


----------



## rabbit73

MBrown2020 said:


> If I go with the Stellar Labs 30-2475 for VHF & my C2V for UHF can I go with Channel Master CM-7778HD Amplify+ Pro (See pic) as the UHF-VHF Joiner for both antennas and then also have it amplify the signal?


 Yes, that should work. 

Did you try your present 7778 and a UVSJ first?
https://www.radioshack.com/products/radioshack-vhf-uhf-gold-plated-splitter-combiner

WLUK will be moving to channel 12 during Repack Phase 9: 3/14/2020 to 5/1/2020. They might have a weaker signal or be off the air at times for antenna work.
https://www.rabbitears.info/repackc...state=&mktid=88&owner=&sort=&ph=&lss=&status=


----------



## MBrown2020

rabbit73 said:


> Yes, that should work.
> 
> Did you try your present 7778 and a UVSJ first?
> https://www.radioshack.com/products/radioshack-vhf-uhf-gold-plated-splitter-combiner



Not yet, I will have more time this weekend to play around with this. That Radio Shack UVSJ is hard to locate, do you have any other suggestions for a good one, via Amazon would be great?
Thank you.


----------



## MBrown2020

rabbit73 said:


> Thank you for the signal report. Your signals are fairly strong outside, but will be weaker in the attic.
> 
> The two antennas you ordered have a little more gain than the C2V dipole for 11. Try them first. If 11 still isn't good enough, add the preamp as suggested by *jkeldo*. If 11 still isn't good enough, you will need an antenna with more VHF gain like the Stellar Labs 30-2475. Combine it with your C2V using a UVSJ (UHF-VHF Separator-Joiner). Find a location for the VHF antenna in the attic that gives the best reception.
> 
> An alternative would be to replace the C2V with a Winegard HD7694P.
> 
> *Jkeldo* is correct about electrical noise; it can interfere with VHF reception.



I managed to install the Winegard YA-7000 without an amp. VHF Fox 11 comes in a lot better signal strength (80%), signal quality (80%), but the symbol quality dips into the red for a second every 10-20 seconds. I get little video/audio blips most times.
All other channels come in fine. My next step was to try the amp and see if it helps.


----------



## rabbit73

MBrown2020 said:


> Not yet, I will have more time this weekend to play around with this. That Radio Shack UVSJ is hard to locate, do you have any other suggestions for a good one, via Amazon would be great?
> Thank you.


I don't understand why you would say that, I gave you a direct link to Radio Shack where it is on sale for $4.49:
https://www.radioshack.com/products/radioshack-vhf-uhf-gold-plated-splitter-combiner



















If you prefer Amazon, you can buy it from a third-party seller:
https://www.amazon.com/Radioshack-Combiner-150-2586-Gold-Plated-Connectors/dp/B001VLPQ6K

The UVSJ by Antennas Direct is also good, but more expensive:
https://store.antennasdirect.com/UHF-VHF-Antenna-Combiners.html

https://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direct-Combiner-All-weather-Adjustable/dp/B008PBTPN4

















*
*
Don't buy the Stellar Labs 33-2230, it isn't as good.


----------



## rabbit73

MBrown2020 said:


> I managed to install the Winegard YA-7000 without an amp. VHF Fox 11 comes in a lot better signal strength (80%), signal quality (80%), but the symbol quality dips into the red for a second every 10-20 seconds. I get little video/audio blips most times.
> All other channels come in fine. My next step was to try the amp and see if it helps.


Thank you for the HDHR GUI images. They show good signal strength, but a sudden dip in symbol quality is a sudden increase in errors. This could be caused by a sudden change in the signal path, like dynamic multi path from trees in the wind, moving vehicles or aircraft. Intermittent electrical interference could also be the cause.


----------



## MBrown2020

rabbit73 said:


> Thank you for the HDHR GUI images. They show good signal strength, but a sudden dip in symbol quality is a sudden increase in errors. This could be caused by a sudden change in the signal path, like dynamic multi path from trees in the wind, moving vehicles or aircraft. Intermittent electrical interference could also be the cause.



I ended up going back to the Denny's EZHD antenna (I think RCA ANT751) as I couldn't get Fox11 with the Winegard YA-7000 at all today. I used the Channel Master Amplify 7777HD @17dB and was able to get all channels without overdriving, but VHF Fox 11 was still cutting out every 10-15 sec. (See pic). So, my attic with these 2 antennas will not give me satisfactory results with the 1 VHF-Hi station (Fox 11). My next step is to try the Stellar Labs 30-2475(Becauses sometimes the best tool for the job might be needed) to just tune in Fox 11 with the RS UVSJ (You linked), along with my ClearStream CV2 (UHF was perfect). Does this sound good as a next step?


----------



## rabbit73

MBrown2020 said:


> I used the Channel Master Amplify 7777HD @17dB and was able to get all channels without overdriving, but VHF Fox 11 was still cutting out every 10-15 sec. (See pic). So, my attic with these 2 antennas will not give me satisfactory results with the 1 VHF-Hi station (Fox 11). My next step is to try the Stellar Labs 30-2475(Becauses sometimes the best tool for the job might be needed) to just tune in Fox 11 with the RS UVSJ (You linked), along with my ClearStream CV2 (UHF was perfect). Does this sound good as a next step?


Thank you for the new images.

I have two 7777HD preamps that I like to use for test setups, but I don't think its enclosure is ideal for outdoor use.

Yes, it sounds like a good next step. You will learn something from every experiment, even if it doesn't yet solve the problem.

CH11 is stronger, and the signal quality went down. So now you have a stronger signal with an SNR that is worse, but you still have intermittent errors with an unknown cause. My current wild guess is electrical interference.


----------



## labjr

Seems like everyone has a problem of some sort with their antenna setup. They really make you work to get OTA TV! It's as if they really don't want anyone to get it for free and they'd prefer that you pay for subscription somewhere.

IMO all stations should be required to broadcast their OTA channels on the internet. Especially since ATSC 3.0 is IP based.


----------



## Davenlr

labjr said:


> IMO all stations should be required to broadcast their OTA channels on the internet. Especially since ATSC 3.0 is IP based.


The local stations won't stand for allowing someone in their viewing area to watch a station outside of the DMA. That is why we got cut off from subscribing to New York or Los Angeles local stations via satellite.

It would solve a lot of issues tho.


----------



## labjr

Davenlr said:


> The local stations won't stand for allowing someone in their viewing area to watch a station outside of the DMA. That is why we got cut off from subscribing to New York or Los Angeles local stations via satellite.
> 
> It would solve a lot of issues tho.


Well they could check your location by IP address etc. like Locast does. But it's about time to let people watch their locals without all the hassle. They need to get with the times. Art some point cable TV as we know it will be history and local channels will probably be begging you to watch.


----------



## CHASLS2

labjr said:


> Seems like everyone has a problem of some sort with their antenna setup. They really make you work to get OTA TV! It's as if they really don't want anyone to get it for free and they'd prefer that you pay for subscription somewhere.
> 
> IMO all stations should be required to broadcast their OTA channels on the internet. Especially since ATSC 3.0 is IP based.


It sure is worse today than it was around 2002. Chans just go blank for hours, or break up for no reason. Wished we could go back to the 70's. Most are 480i anyways and look worse than what we had 45 years ago.


----------



## labjr

CHASLS2 said:


> It sure is worse today than it was around 2002. Chans just go blank for hours, or break up for no reason. Wished we could go back to the 70's. Most are 480i anyways and look worse than what we had 45 years ago.


Hopefully when the repack is done and ATSC 3.0 is in place this will stop for a while. Well, until ATSC 4.0 and the next repack.  

IMO, at some point, the FCC will probably sell off the remaining OTA channels to the highest bidder.


----------



## holl_ands

FYI: Most Cable Co's offer a "Bare-Bones" Local+Govt+Shopping Tier [sometimes Analog....and sometimes Digital only] for about $10-15/mo [plus, if needed another $5-10/mo for a DTA Digital Terminal Adapter]....but they usually "hide" it, so mention the cost range you're looking for.


----------



## MBrown2020

rabbit73 said:


> Thank you for the new images.
> 
> I have two 7777HD preamps that I like to use for test setups, but I don't think its enclosure is ideal for outdoor use.
> 
> Yes, it sounds like a good next step. You will learn something from every experiment, even if it doesn't yet solve the problem.
> 
> CH11 is stronger, and the signal quality went down. So now you have a stronger signal with an SNR that is worse, but you still have intermittent errors with an unknown cause. My current wild guess is electrical interference.



The Stellar Labs 30-2475 comes on Friday, So I will try that this weekend.


As a test today I mounted the Winegard YA-7000 to my extension ladder and put it outside my house about 13' up in the air and pointed it in the direction for Fox11. I then connected 35' coax to my HDHomerun. I had decent quality on all stations, but Fox 11 still cut out every 15-20 seconds and dipped for symbol quality. Outside above my roof still didn't get any better reception???? I'm starting to wonder if I just won't be able to get Fox 11 perfectly?? Doesn't seem to be any better than my current attic installation.


----------



## statmanmi

*MBrown2020 WLUK...Perhaps FM trap? Also, repack.*



MBrown2020 said:


> As a test today... .


Hi MBrown2020,

As a novice watching this thread, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you that the 30-2475 works out for the best. I have some other thoughts I'll share:

* For April/May, and possibly beyond, realize the frequency on which Fox 11 broadcasts now will be changing (as part of the "TV Repack"). Both mrradiohead55--in the Green Bay thread reply to you--and rabbit73 above here mentioned this, but I wanted to point out that you might get things working great by the end of March, then go through a spell without reliable reception of WLUK Fox 11. Their signal will be moved from RF11 (RF = "real frequency") to RF12, so still on Hi-VHF. During that transition, they'll likely have times using an interim antenna, at lower power--and even off the air. Here in West Michigan, we still have two "full service/full power" stations on interim antennas since late fall, until their contracted tower crews can come back in the spring/summer/whenever to complete the permanent installations. 

So don't get discouraged if come April it becomes problematic. (I'd say watch the Green Bay thread for others to post with interim versus permanent status updates.)


* Perhaps someone here has asked about possible FM station interference, from "second harmonics"? How close are you to any FM radio stations on frequencies 99 through 102? Or any other FM radio towers that are really close by? 

Looks like Oshkosh does indeed have FM stations in the 99 to 102 range: https://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/l...&is_fb=Y&format=&dx=0&radius=&freq=&sort=freq

Both your older Titan 2 CM-7778 and new Amplify 7777HD note including FM traps, but if you're really close to a tower, their suppression may not be enough.

When you tried the antenna outside attached to the ladder, did you have a chance to include one of the amps? That'd be a slight way to see if the FM trap may help. Otherwise acquiring a standalone FM trap may have merit. Amazon may not have any, but eBay does...and since the lone Hi-VHF signal you're trying for is in the double digits, any FM trap for TV reception will work. (In markets with signals on RF7 and RF8, one needs to be sure to get an FM Trap that suppresses right from 88 MHz on up, as some really only help from 92 MHz on. But those low-numbered FM signals aren't of great concern for you.)

Good luck! ~~ Statmanmi


----------



## richart

MBrown2020 said:


> The Stellar Labs 30-2475 comes on Friday, So I will try that this weekend.
> 
> 
> As a test today I mounted the Winegard YA-7000 to my extension ladder and put it outside my house about 13' up in the air and pointed it in the direction for Fox11. I then connected 35' coax to my HDHomerun. I had decent quality on all stations, but Fox 11 still cut out every 15-20 seconds and dipped for symbol quality. Outside above my roof still didn't get any better reception???? I'm starting to wonder if I just won't be able to get Fox 11 perfectly?? Doesn't seem to be any better than my current attic installation.


I went back and looked at the link for your Rabbit Ears report. I think you stand a very good chance for Fox 11 with the Stellar Labs 30-2475. That antenna has appreciably more gain than the YA-7000.


----------



## MBrown2020

I received the Stellar Labs 30-2475 today. I setup the antenna on my extension ladder as a test again. The signal without an amp is stronger, but I am still getting dips in the symbol quality. I then installed the Channel Master Titan 2 7778 I have laying around to see if that would help. This time the signal quality % jumps all over the place and the symbol quality rarely gets above 0% (mostly in the red). Once in a while it will hit 100%. (Maybe tuner overload???) I'll try it in my attic this weekend, but it does not seem like I will get Fox 11 100%?


----------



## jkeldo

MBrown2020 said:


> I received the Stellar Labs 30-2475 today. I setup the antenna on my extension ladder as a test again. The signal without an amp is stronger, but I am still getting dips in the symbol quality. I then installed the Channel Master Titan 2 7778 I have laying around to see if that would help. This time the signal quality % jumps all over the place and the symbol quality rarely gets above 0% (mostly in the red). Once in a while it will hit 100%. (Maybe tuner overload???) I'll try it in my attic this weekend, but it does not seem like I will get Fox 11 100%?


It could be overload or a strong FM signal could be interfering. If it has an FM trap, I would check that.


----------



## MBrown2020

jkeldo said:


> It could be overload or a strong FM signal could be interfering. If it has an FM trap, I would check that.



I does have a FM trap. It is set to "IN." Is that correct? Do you know of any good standalone FM traps I could buy to rule FM signals out?


----------



## rabbit73

MBrown2020 said:


> I received the Stellar Labs 30-2475 today. I setup the antenna on my extension ladder as a test again. The signal without an amp is stronger, but I am still getting dips in the symbol quality. I then installed the Channel Master Titan 2 7778 I have laying around to see if that would help. This time the signal quality % jumps all over the place and the symbol quality rarely gets above 0% (mostly in the red). Once in a while it will hit 100%. (Maybe tuner overload???) I'll try it in my attic this weekend, but it does not seem like I will get Fox 11 100%?


Thank you for making the test with the new antenna; nice photo.










Sorry to hear that the new antenna didn't solve the problem. It looks like you have plenty of gain with a preamp and the antenna outside, so overload is quite possible under those conditions. However, the new antenna would give more gain in the attic where the signal is weaker.

I did a report of FM signals at your estimated location which doesn't show FM signals strong enough to cause interference, but I don't know how up to date the database is for FM transmitters:
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/afeb6a3055/Radar-FM.png

You can do your own FM report here; it doesn't link like a TVFool report. I had to create a link for the one I did. Otherwise, you have to do an image,:
http://www.fmfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

An intermittent problem is difficult to track down. I still suspect electrical noise interference from something like a battery charger or appliance. Sometimes the noise can be heard on a battery operated portable radio (or car radio) tuned to a vacant frequency on the AM broadcast band, even though the frequency is quite different.

https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/interference-radio-tv-and-telephone-signals


> *
> Electrical interference and your TV*





> In the presence of electrical interference, you may experience frozen images or intermittent audio while viewing over-the-air television programs. This interference may be caused by equipment in your home, such as hair dryers, sewing machines, electric drills, doorbell transformers, light switches, smartphone chargers, power supplies, computing devices, washing machines, clothes dryers, fluorescent lights, LED lights, or garage door openers.
> 
> Electrical interference may also be caused by power lines. Interference caused by your power company's electrical equipment is normally continuous, and your power company should be notified.
> 
> A simple method of determining the location of electrical interference is by using a portable battery-powered AM radio tuned to a quiet frequency at the lower end of the dial. You should hear static or a buzzing sound as you get close to the source of the interference. The closer you get, the more intense the static will be.


This is the radio I use:










This is a severe case of electrical interference on VHF-High:










VHF-High looks better at my location. Both scans were made with a $20 SDR dongle and free open-source spectrum analyzer software.











Using a HLSJ (VHF-High/VHF-Low Separator/Joiner) would block everything below CH7 including noise and FM, but it wouldn't block noise from VHF-High.


----------



## MBrown2020

rabbit73 said:


> Using a HLSJ (VHF-High/VHF-Low Separator/Joiner) would block everything below CH7 including noise and FM, but it wouldn't block noise from VHF-High.



Like this: https://www.amazon.com/SEPARATOR-JOINER-HIGH-FREQUENCY-CABLETRONIX/dp/B01LYNXRXH


Would I connect antenna to the "Line" port and then my amp lead towards the tuner to the "Hi" port ??? This should block everything but the VHF-Hi signals, right?


----------



## richart

rabbit73 said:


> Thank you for making the test with the new antenna; nice photo.
> 
> An intermittent problem is difficult to track down. I still suspect electrical noise interference from something like a battery charger or appliance. Sometimes the noise can be heard on a battery operated portable radio (or car radio) tuned to a vacant frequency on the AM broadcast band, even though the frequency is quite different.


Power line noise from a defective insulator or loose hardware is often a source of recurring electrical interference. Our local electric utility is always helpful in tracking down such sources...in the long run it saves them time and money because they identify problems and can repair them before an outage occurs. If you can use a battery powered radio to help track down the source before you report it, that's even better. Just be aware that power line noise can often emanate down a power line quite a ways. 

There are other sources such as switching mode power supplies and even LED lights that can cause interference problems. A local ham had LED flood lights that completely wiped out reception on the 2 meter ham band (146 MHz) when they were turned on (they were on a motion sensor which made them intermittent.)

Here is some good information about power line noise: http://www.arrl.org/power-line-noise-faq


----------



## MBrown2020

richart said:


> Power line noise from a defective insulator or loose hardware is often a source of recurring electrical interference. Our local electric utility is always helpful in tracking down such sources...in the long run it saves them time and money because they identify problems and can repair them before an outage occurs. If you can use a battery powered AM radio to help track down the source before you report it, that's even better. Just be aware that power line noise can often emanate down a power line quite a ways.
> 
> There are other sources such as switching mode power supplies and even LED lights that can cause interference problems. A local ham had LED flood lights that completely wiped out reception on the 2 meter ham band (146 MHz) when they were turned on (they were on a motion sensor which made them intermittent.)
> 
> Here is some good information about power line noise: http://www.arrl.org/power-line-noise-faq



I have no above ground power lines (all underground). Would this still apply?


----------



## rabbit73

MBrown2020 said:


> Like this: https://www.amazon.com/SEPARATOR-JOINER-HIGH-FREQUENCY-CABLETRONIX/dp/B01LYNXRXH
> 
> Would I connect antenna to the "Line" port and then my amp lead towards the tuner to the "Hi" port ??? This should block everything but the VHF-Hi signals, right?


 That looks like the correct device; they are getting hard to find. It might be symmetrical, but usually the VHF-High antenna would go to the HI port, and the LINE port would go to the preamp. I don't know if it will help or not; I'm grasping at straws.

The HLSJ HI port will pass VHF-High AND UHF, so you would still need a UVSJ or a preamp with two antenna inputs if you really need a preamp. Otherwise, both antennas will pick up UHF signals that would interfere with each other.











Is the problem the same 24 hours a day, or worse at certain hours?


----------



## richart

MBrown2020 said:


> I have no above ground power lines (all underground). Would this still apply?


Most certainly. You can still have problems with connections and arcing on underground power lines. A frequent source of trouble in our area is with underground transformers. And underground power lines usually connect to above ground power lines at some point. And then you have all the things in and around your house that can cause interference that run off power from the power line. If you can run your TV off battery power and kill all the house power, that is one good troubleshooting step to see if something in your house is causing the interference.


----------



## MBrown2020

rabbit73 said:


> Is the problem the same 24 hours a day, or worse at certain hours?



Pretty much the same no matter when I look(only in evenings between 5pm central - 10pm). I don't ever watch any other time.


----------



## Calaveras

richart said:


> Here is some good information about power line noise: http://www.arrl.org/power-line-noise-faq


At the bottom of that ARRL article there's a picture of a guy using a receiver at 320-340 MHz. That's the sort of frequency range you want to use to track down RFI on the TV bands. The aircraft band is also good at around 130 MHz. Using an AM radio is a highly unreliable method of finding RFI. These days just about every electronic device produces some amount of RFI. What you hear at 1 MHz in the AM band often has little correlation to what you hear in the TV bands. If you tune to a clear frequency in the AM band and walk around your house with the radio I can virtually guarantee you can find RFI. You may very well have RFI on channel 11 but it's unlikely you'll find the real source with an AM radio.

You can use the AM radio in your car and drive around and hear noise. The problem here is that for a lot of that noise the power lines are not the source. A lot of that noise is being generated in a house or especially a business and is leaving the building via the AC lines and propagating down the lines. Fortunately this noise doesn't reach the TV bands. To find noise that is being generated by arcing power line connections you need to listen on VHF or low UHF frequencies.

Like everything RF, someone somewhere will have an anecdote of finding a noisy power line with an AM radio. There's always exceptions to these rules. If you look long and hard enough you'll find that zebra in a herd of horses.


----------



## rabbit73

*Recap*



MBrown2020 said:


> Rabbitears Link: https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=56293
> 
> I currently have an older Clearstream 2V (See pic) antenna located in my attic (I do not want an outside/roof antenna if possible). I only care about ABC, CBS , NBC , & WLUK-Fox11 channels.
> -single story ranch home with plywood roof and asphalt shingles and am connecting the antenna with 20ft of coax to basement and then to a 4 tuner HDHomerun Quatro.
> 
> I currently get ABC, CBS, & NBC no problems, but Fox 11 is very sketchy sometimes. I learned that Fox is High-VHF and the clearstream 2V looks like it's not very good with VHF reception having only 1 dipole?






























Yes, that does look like overload. When you have enough antenna gain and signal strength, you still have the problem.

*Do you have the same problem with Fox if you connect the antenna to a TV tuner instead of the HDHR tuner?*



MBrown2020 said:


> Pretty much the same no matter when I look(only in evenings between 5pm central - 10pm). I don't ever watch any other time.


The reason why I asked is because the pattern reminds me of a street light that keeps trying to turn on.

If the noise isn't heard on the AM radio at the same time as the Fox reception gets bad, you will need to hunt for the problem with another method like using a battery operated TV and cutting the house power as suggested by *richart, *a receiver that tunes VHF AM*, *or with a spectrum analyzer.

I always like to try the easy way first; sometimes it works.


----------



## gbynum

rabbit73 said:


> Both scans were made with a $20 SDR dongle and free open-source spectrum analyzer software.


Would you share details on the hardware and software you use? The last spectrum analyzer I used was in 1970 or 1971. HP something ....

Thanks!


----------



## Primestar31

MBrown2020 said:


> Pretty much the same no matter when I look(only in evenings between 5pm central - 10pm). I don't ever watch any other time.


Do you want to try something fairly easy? This supposes that the problem *is* electrical interference, AND something in your house is causing it.

Simply flip OFF all breakers in your electrical panel, except the one that runs your tv set. IF the problem is caused by some device on your power, and hopefully NOT on that same circuit, your signal should now be stable. If so, flip your breakers back on one at a time, and see if it suddenly goes out again/or signal go up and down constantly again. If so, find out what devices are on that particular breaker, and check them out.

I had this issue some years back, and Rabbit helped me figure out it was two things: a Harbor Freight battery tender in my garage, AND a Dell laptop power brick. Both were so electrically noisy, they jammed my VHF signals. I removed them both from service, and no longer had the issues since then.


----------



## rabbit73

*Learning to use an SDR Dongle as a Spectrum Analyzer*



gbynum said:


> Would you share details on the hardware and software you use? The last spectrum analyzer I used was in 1970 or 1971. HP something ....
> 
> Thanks!


I have often wanted a spectrum analyzer, but the cost was beyond my budget. I first wanted a signal level meter to make antenna measurements. I have been very fortunate to have a wife that not only tolerated but encouraged my experiments to the point that she bought a Sadelco DisplayMax 800 signal level meter (SLM) for me as a present. It is able to make a single channel scan of a channel much like a spectrum analyzer would do; the avatar at the left of this post shows a scan of channel 13.

The meter on the right is the 800; the one on the left is an older meter that I bought in 1988 when I retired from the government.










More recently, I kept reading about inexpensive SDR (Software Defined Radio) dongles that could be connected to an antenna and the USB port of a computer. When using the correct software, the dongle becomes a spectrum analyzer. The only catch is that the dongle doesn't come with that software, but free open-source software is available. Well, I'm not very good at software, so it took me three attempts to assemble the software folder in my computer before I got it to work. The dongle that I bought is the RTL-SDR Blog brand R820T2 RTL2832U 1PPM TCXO HF Bias Tee SMA Dongle (V3). 

https://www.rtl-sdr.com/buy-rtl-sdr-dvb-t-dongles/










International shipping has been restricted because of the* Coronavirus*, but Amazon seems to have some. It's where I bought mine:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0129EBDS...0f-20&linkId=9806dfa291f74f7cdb49e2cfbe3d34eb

I also bought an antenna adapter cable, F to SMA:










Next, to learn about the software, I used the excellent tutorial thread by Pete Higgins. You have to log in to see all of his images, because they start out as attachments. On that forum, you have to log in to see attachments. The images that I posted there are open, because I used an image host, imgur:
*Inexpensive Software Defined Radio Spectrum Analyzer < $10.00*
https://www.highdefforum.com/local-...-defined-radio-spectrum-analyzer-10-00-a.html

This post shows the different software versions I tried:
https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/18...rting-uhf-yagi-vhf-antenna-7.html#post3090963


----------



## Ken.F

rabbit73 said:


> International shipping has been restricted because of the* Coronavirus*, but Amazon seems to have some. It's where I bought mine:
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0129EBDS...0f-20&linkId=9806dfa291f74f7cdb49e2cfbe3d34eb
> 
> I also bought an antenna adapter cable, F to SMA


 I got my RTL-SDR at Micro Center. I've done a lot with it but never tried using it as a spectrum analyzer. Lately I've just been using it for FM radio in GQRX. I robbed the SMA adapter cable from my old Ceton InfiniTV4 PCIe tuner.

https://www.microcenter.com/product...ed-radio-receiver-usb-stick---rtl2832-w-r820t


----------



## MBrown2020

rabbit73;59307734
[B said:


> Do you have the same problem with Fox if you connect the antenna to a TV tuner instead of the HDHR tuner?[/B]



The plot thickens.... I connected my antenna (Dennys EZHD) with CM-7778HD(17dB) amp to my LG C7 OLED & Samsung LCD tuners. Everything looks clear and according to the signal meters Fox 11 is good.


LG C7 = signal strength 62% - signal quality 100%.
Samsung LCD shows 5 out of ten bars.


So my HDHomerun tuner could be the issue here. Hmmmmmmm.... I'll check with HDhomerun's support. I'll do some more testing this weekend.


EDIT: I have an old Hauppage HVR-2250 tuner in my basement computer I can try also.


----------



## nathill

MBrown2020 said:


> The plot thickens.... I connected my antenna (Dennys EZHD) with CM-7778HD(17dB) amp to my LG C7 OLED & Samsung LCD tuners. Everything looks clear and according to the signal meters Fox 11 is good.
> 
> LG C7 = signal strength 62% - signal quality 100%.
> Samsung LCD shows 5 out of ten bars.
> 
> So my HDHomerun tuner could be the issue here. Hmmmmmmm.... I'll check with HDhomerun's support. I'll do some more testing this weekend.
> 
> EDIT: I have an old Hauppage HVR-2250 tuner in my basement computer I can try also.



In my experience, HDHomeRun tuners are inclined to be easily overdriven.
Not saying that is necessarily your problem, but I have learned the lesson the hard way more than once.


----------



## MBrown2020

It seems that my Hauppage HVR 2250 Dual tuner in my basement computer is able to tune fox 11 with no uncorrected errors and SNR 26.5. So it appears my antenna is fine and three different tuners work.
So there seems to be something wrong with my HDhomerun tuner for just Fox 11???? Hmmm, interesting.


----------



## labjr

I hope when outboard ATSC 3.0 tuners are available there will be good reviews about the RF performance etc. and not just features.


----------



## tylerSC

MBrown2020 said:


> It seems that my Hauppage HVR 2250 Dual tuner in my basement computer is able to tune fox 11 with no uncorrected errors and SNR 26.5. So it appears my antenna is fine and three different tuners work.
> So there seems to be something wrong with my HDhomerun tuner for just Fox 11???? Hmmm, interesting.


If the HDHR is a dual tuner device, then perhaps it has a built in preamp. If that is the case you may definitely be having an overload issue if you add another external preamp into the system. Either way, the HDHR may have overload issues or not handle multipath or signal quality issues as good as your other TV tuners. So unfortunately the HDHR may be the problem rather than your antenna set up, which is otherwise ok for most other tuners or devices.


----------



## gbynum

rabbit73 said:


> I have often wanted a spectrum analyzer, but the cost was beyond my budget.
> 
> More recently, I kept reading about inexpensive SDR (Software Defined Radio) dongles that could be connected to an antenna and the USB port of a computer. When using the correct software, the dongle becomes a spectrum analyzer.


THANKS!

I'm interested in playing ... ordered the dongle with the antenna. I __THINK__ I've played with specialized versions of SDR dongles, a Happauge tuner, and also heard there is spectrum analyzer software for it, but nothing popped up.

I'll play with this on my Windoze 10 Home 64 bit laptop, so downloaded the 64 bit version. I had an XP laptop that finally gave up the ghost; won't do ANYTHING!

Another toy in my retirement ... keeps me from (promptly) doing those HoneyDo tasks I should do.


----------



## tylerSC

Also the Channel Master 7777HD Amplify version has both high gain and low gain settings for the preamp. If overload is a problem be sure it is set on the low gain setting.


----------



## MBrown2020

tylerSC said:


> If the HDHR is a dual tuner device, then perhaps it has a built in preamp. If that is the case you may definitely be having an overload issue if you add another external preamp into the system. Either way, the HDHR may have overload issues or not handle multipath or signal quality issues as good as your other TV tuners. So unfortunately the HDHR may be the problem rather than your antenna set up, which is otherwise ok for most other tuners or devices.



It is the new Scribe Quatro : https://www.bestbuy.com/site/hdhome...VDdvACh2_ng1AEAQYAiABEgKFsvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


----------



## MBrown2020

tylerSC said:


> Also the Channel Master 7777HD Amplify version has both high gain and low gain settings for the preamp. If overload is a problem be sure it is set on the low gain setting.



It is on the low gain setting (Green). I have not tried it on the high gain (red) , yet.


----------



## gbynum

rabbit73 said:


> I have often wanted a spectrum analyzer, ...


I received the SDR, installed via your linked hints, played FM radio with SDR#.

I downloade the SA in 64 bit, get Import error: Error loading librtlsdr. Make sure librtlsdr (and all of its dependencies) are in your path
Error importing libraries

so have a little more to do. I downloaded the 32 bit version as an installable package, will try that, then PERHAPS the library will be there too? If not, I'll try to find the 64 bit support files.

Whatever, it's fun. My wife will be in London for 3 weeks beginning this weekend, lots of time to play.

THANKS!


----------



## rabbit73

gbynum said:


> I received the SDR, installed via your linked hints, played FM radio with SDR#.


 Yes, that was the first software that I tried with the dongle. 










I was also able to use SDR# to check the SNR of TV channels and the noise floor adjacent to a channel. 




















But, SDR# doesn't have enough bandwidth for a SA scan. The SA software combines many short scans into one long scan. 


> I downloaded the SA in 64 bit, get Import error: Error loading librtlsdr. Make sure librtlsdr (and all of its dependencies) are in your path
> Error importing libraries


I had similar problems; the downloads are incomplete. If an advanced search in my computer couldn't find the missing part, I had to hunt for it online. But, I guess you saw that if you read all the way through Pete's tutorial thread.

Sounds like it's working for you; have fun!


----------



## onslowtn

Does the Stellar Labs 30-2476 VHF antenna have any gain at all on a low vhf channels such as cj 5? I have on strong dh 5 sand was wonderinhg if the 2476 would possibly work for this one channel. I have several high VHF channels.


----------



## Trip in VA

MBrown2020 said:


> It is the new Scribe Quatro : https://www.bestbuy.com/site/hdhome...VDdvACh2_ng1AEAQYAiABEgKFsvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


I have an HDHR5 (same series) and it overloads a lot easier than the older HDHRs I've used. If you could find a 10 dB attenuator, I stuck one of those in front of mine and it improved things a lot.

My HDHR3 didn't need one.

- Trip


----------



## rabbit73

onslowtn said:


> Does the Stellar Labs 30-2476 VHF antenna have any gain at all on a low vhf channels such as cj 5? I have on strong dh 5 sand was wonderinhg if the 2476 would possibly work for this one channel. I have several high VHF channels.


I haven't seen any measurements for it on VHF-Low, but its gain on 2-6 would be very low because the elements are too short. Also, its balun might not pass ch 5 very well. Channel 5 would have to be very strong at your location for reliable reception.

What does your signal report look like? You can do one here:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php

A generic report for Greeneville, TN looks like this:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=65927


----------



## Calaveras

onslowtn said:


> Does the Stellar Labs 30-2476 VHF antenna have any gain at all on a low vhf channels such as cj 5? I have on strong dh 5 sand was wonderinhg if the 2476 would possibly work for this one channel. I have several high VHF channels.



A high VHF antenna will not have gain on low VHF but that doesn't mean it won't receive channel 5 if channel 5 is strong enough. My experience with playing around with a high VHF antenna on low VHF is that the maximum response is around +/- 45 degrees off the antenna's main axis. So if your channel 5 was at 90 degrees, you'd need to point it at 45 or 135 degrees to get the maximum signal.


----------



## MBrown2020

Trip in VA said:


> I have an HDHR5 (same series) and it overloads a lot easier than the older HDHRs I've used. If you could find a 10 dB attenuator, I stuck one of those in front of mine and it improved things a lot.
> 
> My HDHR3 didn't need one.
> 
> - Trip



I don't think my problem is overloading. No matter how strong or weak (doesn't matter), the VHF-HI Fox 11 signal symbol quality drops to red every 15-20 seconds. Only that channel does this, my other 3 UHF (ABC,CBS,NBC) all stay at 100% symbol quality. I tested 2 TV's and a Hauppage HVR 2250 PC tuner all receive Fox 11 without errors, so this is something to do with the HDHR5 tuners.


----------



## jkeldo

MBrown2020 said:


> I don't think my problem is overloading. No matter how strong or weak (doesn't matter), the VHF-HI Fox 11 signal symbol quality drops to red every 15-20 seconds. Only that channel does this, my other 3 UHF (ABC,CBS,NBC) all stay at 100% symbol quality. I tested 2 TV's and a Hauppage HVR 2250 PC tuner all receive Fox 11 without errors, so this is something to do with the HDHR5 tuners.


Since Trip mentioned about the overload, you might want to try the attenuator because if that receiver is more sensitive than the others and it is picking up some type of interference as discussed earlier, that may be enough to cut it back. I wonder if some of these security cameras that are cropping up everywhere could cause interference on VHF.

One other thing comes to mind: if the HD tuner uses a power brick, that could also be adding noise if it is defective in some way.


----------



## MBrown2020

jkeldo said:


> Since Trip mentioned about the overload, you might want to try the attenuator because if that receiver is more sensitive than the others and it is picking up some type of interference as discussed earlier, that may be enough to cut it back. I wonder if some of these security cameras that are cropping up everywhere could cause interference on VHF.
> 
> One other thing comes to mind: if the HD tuner uses a power brick, that could also be adding noise if it is defective in some way.



I tried a HDHR4 connect duo from a friend (a generation older) and everything works fine for fox 11 (No dipping in symbol quality). So something in my HDHR5 scribe quatro's tuner is not happy with that channel.


I'll try a different power supply, that was my next troubleshooting step.


----------



## jkeldo

MBrown2020 said:


> I tried a HDHR4 connect duo from a friend (a generation older) and everything works fine for fox 11 (No dipping in symbol quality). So something in my HDHR5 scribe quatro's tuner is not happy with that channel.
> 
> 
> I'll try a different power supply, that was my next troubleshooting step.


Your situation just reminded me of something possibly similar that was recently on our Cleveland OTA forum. Check out this link and previous ones for more detail:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-l...39546-cleveland-oh-hdtv-488.html#post59199624

It's good that you were able to try a different tuner to narrow down the problem.


----------



## MBrown2020

jkeldo said:


> Your situation just reminded me of something possibly similar that was recently on our Cleveland OTA forum. Check out this link and previous ones for more detail:
> 
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-l...39546-cleveland-oh-hdtv-488.html#post59199624
> 
> It's good that you were able to try a different tuner to narrow down the problem.



Well, I spoke too soon. Today after trying the HDHR4 connect duo again, it started dropping the symbol quality every 15-20 sec AGAIN! My computer with the Hauppage HVR 2250 works fine.


----------



## jkeldo

MBrown2020 said:


> Well, I spoke too soon. Today after trying the HDHR4 connect duo again, it started dropping the symbol quality every 15-20 sec AGAIN! My computer with the Hauppage HVR 2250 works fine.


Sorry to hear you're having a difficult time narrowing the issue down. It still is possible that a power supply is causing the issue. Is it possible to try the tuner with another tv or in another part of your house? Or maybe unplug other devices near your tuner that could possibly be causing the interference.


----------



## MBrown2020

jkeldo said:


> Sorry to hear you're having a difficult time narrowing the issue down. It still is possible that a power supply is causing the issue. Is it possible to try the tuner with another tv or in another part of your house? Or maybe unplug other devices near your tuner that could possibly be causing the interference.



I moved the tuner to the living room to test it in another location, but with no change in problem. I have a new universal power supply 5V 2A with a bunch of plugs coming on friday to test out another power supply.


----------



## Primestar31

I had that same issue on a VHF-high station some years ago. It was caused by TWO different devices:

1: Harbor Freight battery charger in my garage that was plugged in.
2: Dell laptop power supply in my living room.

Once they were unplugged, problem went away permanently. The Dell power brick was replaced with a brand new model, that didn't have the interference problem. The Harbor Freight battery tender was thrown out.

I've heard that certain LED lightbulbs can also cause this issue.


----------



## MBrown2020

I just tried a new universal power supply-same issue.
I put an in-line attenuator 6dB dropped signal strength to 92%, signal quality 72%-still same problem.


----------



## MBrown2020

Primestar31 said:


> I had that same issue on a VHF-high station some years ago. It was caused by TWO different devices:
> 
> 1: Harbor Freight battery charger in my garage that was plugged in.
> 2: Dell laptop power supply in my living room.
> 
> Once they were unplugged, problem went away permanently. The Dell power brick was replaced with a brand new model, that didn't have the interference problem. The Harbor Freight battery tender was thrown out.
> 
> I've heard that certain LED lightbulbs can also cause this issue.



I guess I need to try the whole house power down to see if that helps.


I'm still thinking this is related to the HDHR because every other tuner works fine


----------



## MBrown2020

I got a reply back from Silicon Dust:


This is likely the typical "didn't RTFM when installing a Harris transmitter" issue that has affected a number of stations over the years. Basically, the transmitter has a feedback connector that it uses to monitor its own output and adjust power levels as needed to account for possible issues. If they don't hook it up, when it does the sampling and sees no signal, it cranks up the output level, then slowly backs it down, and the process repeats. Every time that spike happens, the signal gets distorted as the gain control tries to track it. The good news is that the repack is forcing them to move to a new channel, which means junking the old transmitter because it's obsolete and can't be retuned to operate on the new channel. So, everything should just magically work once they change channels, because the new transmitters don't have this kind of issue. WLUK is scheduled to move on 5/1.


So, I guess I'll re-visit this again after the repack Fox 11 moving to channel 12.


----------



## rabbit73

There was a post on another forum by a transmitter engineer that mentioned the transmitter feedback circuit causing the problem, but I can't find it now.

*Symbol Quality Bouncing*
Connect Quatro HDHR5-4US
https://forum.silicondust.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=72930

issue with older model
*HDHomeRun HDHR3 ATSC 30-Second Reception Issue*
http://www.silicondust.com/hdhomerun/hdhomerun3_8vsb_30s_solution.pdf

related review of Connect Quatro Tuner by Techu
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/review...a-tv-black/6079602?feature=channels&variant=A

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/hdhome...ree-live-ota-tv-black/6079602.p?skuId=6079602
go to one star review of HDHR5-4US by Jason 
*Poor signal and support*
Posted 1 year ago.


> I have had 2 of these devices over 2 months (had to pay return shipping to manufacturer because support took so long I couldn't return it to the store) and it won't receive the channels that my other tuners can off the same antenna. Symbol quality will drop from 100% down to 0% on some channels every 15-30 seconds making them unwatchable. Tried contacting support multiple times and usually don't get a reply.


I think it would be better to wait until repack is completed before messing with the firmware.


----------



## MBrown2020

rabbit73 said:


> There was a post on another forum by a transmitter engineer that mentioned the transmitter feedback circuit causing the problem, but I can't find it now.
> 
> *Symbol Quality Bouncing*
> Connect Quatro HDHR5-4US
> https://forum.silicondust.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=72930
> issue with older model
> *HDHomeRun HDHR3 ATSC 30-Second Reception Issue*
> http://www.silicondust.com/hdhomerun/hdhomerun3_8vsb_30s_solution.pdf
> 
> I think it would be better to wait until repack is completed before messing with the firmware.



Yup, hopefully that will prove to be my issue. Thank you for all the help with troubleshooting this issue, I learned a lot about TV reception than I thought I would


I managed to install the stellar labs 30-2475 in my attic and I actually get the UHF channels also, so for now it looks like I won't be needing a UHF antenna.


----------



## MBrown2020

One last question


What UHF only antenna would you recommend in case I would need one to pair with the stellar labs down the road?


Thank you.


----------



## Primestar31

MBrown2020 said:


> One last question
> 
> 
> What UHF only antenna would you recommend in case I would need one to pair with the stellar labs down the road?
> 
> 
> Thank you.


This one: https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2370/long-range-uhf-hdtv-91-element/dp/72Y2542


----------



## MBrown2020

Primestar31 said:


> This one: https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2370/long-range-uhf-hdtv-91-element/dp/72Y2542



I have really good UHF signals, is there anything a little more compact like 30-2420 or 30-2426 that would work?


----------



## Primestar31

MBrown2020 said:


> I have really good UHF signals, is there anything a little more compact like 30-2420 or 30-2426 that would work?


Yep, its little brother: https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2365/long-range-uhf-hdtv-43-element/dp/72Y2541


----------



## MBrown2020

Primestar31 said:


> Yep, its little brother: https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2365/long-range-uhf-hdtv-43-element/dp/72Y2541



Perfect, how far away from my 30-2475 do I need to be? Can I mount it on the same pole about a foot below?


----------



## Primestar31

MBrown2020 said:


> Perfect, how far away from my 30-2475 do I need to be? Can I mount it on the same pole about a foot below?


It really should be about *3 feet* above OR below another antenna. You can try 1 foot, but it'll interact, and there's no way to tell how beforehand.

Just try to get it as far apart as you can. You'll need a UVSJ combiner also, such as this one: https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/33-2230/uhf-vhf-antenna-combiner/dp/48Y8153


----------



## lifespeed

The repack is forcing a reconfiguration of my UHF-only setup to add VHF. While Stellar Labs has a couple nice VHF-Hi antenna, I figure I may as well go for the full VHF band and not revisit this later. However, AFAIK there is not a full-band VHF antenna for sale. So I'm thinking of getting a Winegard HD8200U, and cutting off the UHF front along with the UVSJ and replacing with a balun. I'll mount this 3 feet below an XB16A from the UK.


Has anybody done anything like this before? It would seem realistic given they're two nearly separate antennae. I'm in the shadow of a hill 45 miles from the transmitter, so have learned I need a very good, high-directivity UHF antenna so don't really want to settle for the "good" UHF antenna on the front of the HD8200U. Not to mention the monstrous wind loading.


----------



## nathill

lifespeed said:


> The repack is forcing a reconfiguration of my UHF-only setup to add VHF. While Stellar Labs has a couple nice VHF-Hi antenna, I figure I may as well go for the full VHF band and not revisit this later. However, AFAIK there is not a full-band VHF antenna for sale. So I'm thinking of getting a Winegard HD8200U, and cutting off the UHF front along with the UVSJ and replacing with a balun. I'll mount this 3 feet below an XB16A from the UK.
> 
> Has anybody done anything like this before? It would seem realistic given they're two nearly separate antennae. I'm in the shadow of a hill 45 miles from the transmitter, so have learned I need a very good, high-directivity UHF antenna so don't really want to settle for the "good" UHF antenna on the front of the HD8200U. Not to mention the monstrous wind loading.



Doesn't the HD8200U have a really good UHF portion? I have it's sister (the one with a hi-vhf backend), and it gets 60 mile UHF stations rock solid.


----------



## Calaveras

lifespeed said:


> Has anybody done anything like this before? It would seem realistic given they're two nearly separate antennae. I'm in the shadow of a hill 45 miles from the transmitter, so have learned I need a very good, high-directivity UHF antenna so don't really want to settle for the "good" UHF antenna on the front of the HD8200U. Not to mention the monstrous wind loading.


I've heard of this being done and it does seem to work. Most of the wind load comes from the low VHF elements. How much difference will removing the UHF portion make? Seems like it would unbalance the antenna and cause a mounting problem.

AFAIK there is no low/high VHF only antenna made anymore.


----------



## lifespeed

nathill said:


> Doesn't the HD8200U have a really good UHF portion? I have it's sister (the one with a hi-vhf backend), and it gets 60 mile UHF stations rock solid.


 It does not have a repack-optimized bandwidth like the XB16A.




Calaveras said:


> How much difference will removing the UHF portion make? Seems like it would unbalance the antenna and cause a mounting problem.


I'm sure I can figure out how to mount it to the pole at the center of mass. It looks like you've got a low or full-band VHF antenna, no doubt out of print by now.


----------



## Larry Kenney

lifespeed said:


> The repack is forcing a reconfiguration of my UHF-only setup to add VHF. While Stellar Labs has a couple nice VHF-Hi antenna, I figure I may as well go for the full VHF band and not revisit this later. However, AFAIK there is not a full-band VHF antenna for sale. So I'm thinking of getting a Winegard HD8200U, and cutting off the UHF front along with the UVSJ and replacing with a balun. I'll mount this 3 feet below an XB16A from the UK.
> 
> 
> Has anybody done anything like this before? It would seem realistic given they're two nearly separate antennae. I'm in the shadow of a hill 45 miles from the transmitter, so have learned I need a very good, high-directivity UHF antenna so don't really want to settle for the "good" UHF antenna on the front of the HD8200U. Not to mention the monstrous wind loading.


I have a Winegard HD8200U here in San Francisco and am able to receive low VHF low power KQRO channel 2, virtual 45, from Loma Prieta, 55 miles away, and two high VHF and three UHF stations from Walnut Grove, 65 miles away (KVIE RF 9, KXTV 10, KOVR 13-RF 25, KMAX 31-RF 21, and KQCA 58-RF 46) with it. I've been very pleased with it, just as it came out of the box. It's directivity is so good that when I'm pointed at Walnut Grove several of the stations from Sutro Tower, just 3/4 mile away, drop out.

Larry


----------



## Calaveras

lifespeed said:


> It does not have a repack-optimized bandwidth like the XB16A.
> 
> I'm sure I can figure out how to mount it to the pole at the center of mass. It looks like you've got a low or full-band VHF antenna, no doubt out of print by now.



Is the XB16 available in the U.S. or is it only in the U.K.?

My low VHF antenna is a homemade LPDA. I'm not using it here because there are no low VHF stations.


----------



## lifespeed

Calaveras said:


> Is the XB16 available in the U.S. or is it only in the U.K.?



They'll ship to the USA. Not the cheapest solution, but probably the best performance.


----------



## rabbit73

If you modify the 8200, take note of the 2 long directors in the UHF section. I believe they are designed to give additional gain for VHF and UHF. Channel Master calls them drop wing directors in their Crossfire antennas; Winegard doesn't seem to mention them except to call them UHF directors. Their generic name is decoupling stubs.

It's important to open the VHF elements in the correct order; it's easy to do it wrong. They should alternate left-right. The original assembly instructions for 7698/8200 are correct; the new instructions are wrong. 

old original instructions:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/A1w2MYKsdkL.pdf










I sent an eMail to Winegard asking about the difference between the old and new instructions. Their answer was not helpful.

You will find some photos on the internet by users that have the VHF elements opened in the wrong order. This user tells about his assembly experience:

https://mattgadient.com/winegard-hd8200u-installation-and-review/


----------



## lifespeed

rabbit73 said:


> If you modify the 8200, take note of the 2 long directors in the UHF section. I believe they are designed to give additional gain for VHF and UHF. Channel Master calls them drop wing directors in their Crossfire antennas; Winegard doesn't seem to mention them. Their generic name is decoupling stubs.
> 
> It's important to open the VHF elements in the correct order; it's easy to do it wrong. They should alternate left-right. The original assembly instructions for 7698/8200 are correct; the new instructions are wrong. You will find some photos on the internet by users that have the VHF elements opened in the wrong order. This user tells about his assembly experience:
> 
> https://mattgadient.com/winegard-hd8200u-installation-and-review/



Thanks for the info. I did see the UHF section contained some elements that appear to be sized for VHF. So the overall length would be reduced only modestly. While I understand the HD8200U is "good enough" for many applications, some experimentation has shown me I'm in a location with severe multipath requiring a very good antenna. While there is no way to know whether or not the HD8200 is good enough for me, the electrical engineer in me can't ignore the revised UHF HDTV bandwidth as it relates to antenna design. So I would have to go with the XB16A. Too bad US manufacturers can't be bothered to redesign their UHF Yagi offerings for the current 470 to 600MHz span, instead peddling their old 470 to 800MHz offerings.


----------



## nathill

rabbit73 said:


> If you modify the 8200, take note of the 2 long directors in the UHF section. I believe they are designed to give additional gain for VHF and UHF. Channel Master calls them drop wing directors in their Crossfire antennas; Winegard doesn't seem to mention them except to call them UHF directors. Their generic name is decoupling stubs.
> 
> It's important to open the VHF elements in the correct order; it's easy to do it wrong. They should alternate left-right. The original assembly instructions for 7698/8200 are correct; the new instructions are wrong.
> 
> old original instructions:
> https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/A1w2MYKsdkL.pdf
> 
> I sent an eMail to Winegard asking about the difference between the old and new instructions. Their answer was not helpful.
> 
> You will find some photos on the internet by users that have the VHF elements opened in the wrong order. This user tells about his assembly experience:
> 
> https://mattgadient.com/winegard-hd8200u-installation-and-review/



Your post above now makes perfect sense to me.
I bought one of these dudes, cost me over $200 as I recall, and the VHF part of it offered absolutely pitiful reception. Very difficult to fix it now that the long arms have obviously been opened improperly by me, while using their WRONG directions.
Thanks Rabbit. I may try to fix it somehow, and use it pointing another direction for a silicon dust tuner.
THANKS!


----------



## nathill

Rabbit,
Just went out and checked my old antenna which had pitiful VHF reception. It is currently on the ground. Every VHF element on one side was on top, every VHF element on the other side was on the bottom, just like the picture sited below shows. Unbelievable. I followed directions and more or less ruined a $200 antenna.
OLD PICTURE WITH INCORRECT VHF ELEMENT PLACEMENT:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001DFTGRY?tag=duckduckgo-d-20&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1


----------



## rabbit73

nathill said:


> Rabbit,
> Just went out and checked my old antenna which had pitiful VHF reception. It is currently on the ground. Every VHF element on one side was on top, every VHF element on the other side was on the bottom, just like the picture sited below shows. Unbelievable. I followed directions and more or less ruined a $200 antenna.
> OLD PICTURE WITH INCORRECT VHF ELEMENT PLACEMENT:
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001DFTGRY?tag=duckduckgo-d-20&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1


 Oh, my; that's unfortunate.

That's the newer 7698/8200 manual with the wrong assembly of the 7698 VHF section
Rev5 11-16 1450292 at bottom of last manual pdf page

Older correct 7698/8200 manual link on this page for the 8200
Rev3 12-13 1450292 at bottom of last manual pdf page
https://www.amazon.com/Winegard-HD8200U-Platinum-Antenna-High-Def/dp/B001DFS4BI
Link for manual: Product information > Technical Specification > User Manual [pdf ] 

The only way the new manual could be right is if they changed the design of the VHF LPDA elements of the 7698, but didn't change the 8200; not likely.

The elements also alternate on the smaller 7694 as they should.

There are two primary methods of constructing a log-periodic antenna: single boom or double boom. The two methods are electrically equivalent.











In the single boom LPDA, the elements are insulated from the boom and connected together with a zig-zag transmission line.










In the double boom LPDA, the elements are connected to each boom and the booms act as the transmission line. The booms are insulated from each other.










The 8200 and 7698 use a hybrid version of the double boom construction.


----------



## nathill

rabbit73 said:


> Oh, my; that's unfortunate.
> 
> That's the newer 7698/8200 manual with the wrong assembly of the 7698 VHF section
> Rev5 11-16 1450292 at bottom of last manual pdf page
> 
> Old correct 7698/8200 manual link on this page for the 8200
> Rev3 12-13 1450292 at bottom of last manual pdf page
> https://www.amazon.com/Winegard-HD8200U-Platinum-Antenna-High-Def/dp/B001DFS4BI
> Link for manual: Product information > Technical Specification > User Manual [pdf ]
> 
> The only way the new manual could be right is if they changed the design of the VHF LPDA elements of the 7698, but didn't change the 8200; not likely.
> 
> The elements also alternate on the smaller 7694 as they should:
> https://www.amazon.com/Winegard-Platinum-HD7694P-Ultra-HD-High-VHF/dp/B001DFTGR4


Hoping to manually fix the element's placement to reuse the antenna.
But those babies are pretty well in place.
Wish me luck!

The one I have with correct placement is a beast on VHF and quite good on UHF.
It's not very directional with VHF. It gets a VHF station that is over 45 degrees off axis and fifty miles away from time to time.


----------



## lifespeed

Looks like the repack is upon us. I need to add VHF reception or I'll lose KRON completely. For my setup I do not see a tuner capacity reason (2 each HDHR4-2US dual tuners) to add a third tuner for VHF, instead I'll join it with my DB4e antenna pointed at Fremont. It is only 15 miles away, so the signals are strong meaning the slight loss from the UVSJ won't matter. Kind of weird having San Francisco VHF and Fremont UHF on the same tuner, but it makes sense from a signal level and dual-tuner utilization perspective. And maybe I'll get RF channel 5 KRCB from Sonoma County. Or are they moving to Sutro tower?


So to the point: what is the best-performing UVSJ? DC pass for a pre-amp is not wanted, although I guess this comes for free on the VHF lowpass side. I would rather not suffer the performance penalty on the UHF side of a DC pass. I guess these are lowpass/highpass, so no interaction with the new 600MHz upper edge of the UHF band?


----------



## Larry Kenney

KRCB will be moving from channel 23 on Sonoma Mountain to channel 5 on Sutro Tower.

See https://larrykenney.com/sfonair3.html for a complete review of all of the Northern California channel changes and other details regarding the phases and dates for the re-pack. There will be stations on channels 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 on low VHF after the changes are complete and nothing above channel 36.

Larry


----------



## OTnA

Now I’m wondering if the VHF elements on my HD8200U have been correctly unfurled. Can anyone tell from the images below?


----------



## lifespeed

Here is a thread and some measurements of UVSJ. Here is a Macom UVSJ, although I suspect not of the same vintage and design as the measured MACOM UVSJ from three years ago.


----------



## lifespeed

Larry Kenney said:


> There will be stations on channels 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 on low VHF after the changes are complete and nothing above channel 36.



True, although I think all but RF 5 are Keith's God and shopping channels.


----------



## rabbit73

lifespeed said:


> So to the point: what is the best-performing UVSJ? DC pass for a pre-amp is not wanted, although I guess this comes for free on the VHF lowpass side. I would rather not suffer the performance penalty on the UHF side of a DC pass.


I suggest the Radio Shack 15-2586 for indoor use and the Antennas Direct EU385CF-1S for outdoor use because it has an enclosure. Avoid the Stellar Labs 33-2230.
https://www.radioshack.com/products/radioshack-vhf-uhf-gold-plated-splitter-combiner

https://store.antennasdirect.com/UHF-VHF-Antenna-Combiners.html



> I guess these are lowpass/highpass, so no interaction with the new 600MHz upper edge of the UHF band?


That is correct; a UVSJ contains a lowpass and a highpass filter. The highpass section passes UHF TV and above. It's a low-loss device, as compared to a splitter.


----------



## nathill

OTnA said:


> Now I’m wondering if the VHF elements on my HD8200U have been correctly unfurled. Can anyone tell from the images below?


 The first two pictures look good, but I'm not sure I'm seeing enough elements, and the third picture is confusing to my eyes.
A given side (right or left), should have long elements on top-botttom-top-bottom-top-etc.
I THINK that's what you have, but can't really tell.
Some illustrations are sited above, make sure you get the right one!
Rabbit is the ultimate authority!


----------



## rabbit73

OTnA said:


> Now I’m wondering if the VHF elements on my HD8200U have been correctly unfurled. Can anyone tell from the images below?


Thank you for the clear photos. It looks correct to me.










When I say left, I mean when you are at the rear of the antenna facing forward. To use a nautical term, the port side.




























What's interesting about the above diagram is that if you stare at it long enough, you almost think you are looking at the top of the antennas. But, you're not; you're looking at the bottom of the antennas from below. Maybe the artist studied the works of M. C. Escher.


----------



## Larry Kenney

Here's a picture of my HD8200U. I think I have the elements unfurled correctly. Could you take a look, Rabbit? It works very well for me.

Larry


----------



## rabbit73

Larry Kenney said:


> Here's a picture of my HD8200U. I think I have the elements unfurled correctly. Could you take a look, Rabbit? It works very well for me.
> 
> Larry


It looks correct to me.

Thank you for the photo and confirmation that the older manual, 2007 Rev3 12-13 1450292, is correct.


----------



## rabbit73

nathill said:


> Some illustrations are sited above, make sure you get the right one!
> Rabbit is the ultimate authority!


Thank you for the compliment, but I still have a lot to learn.

I'm seeing a similar problem with the instruction manuals for the HD7694P.

In revision 3 of the Assembly Instructions, the image of the antenna matches the instructions:



















But in revision 4, the image of the antenna does not match the instructions. The elements do alternate in the image, but they are in reverse order of the instructions. I'm not certain if that would make a difference in performance or not.


----------



## nathill

*Stellar Labs 33-2230*



rabbit73 said:


> I suggest the Radio Shack 15-2586 for indoor use and the Antennas Direct EU385CF-1S for outdoor use because it has an enclosure. Avoid the Stellar Labs 33-2230.


Rabbit, what don't you like about the stellar labs 33-2230?
Haven't used or bought one, just curious.
THANKS!


----------



## rabbit73

nathill said:


> Rabbit, what don't you like about the stellar labs 33-2230?
> Haven't used or bought one, just curious.
> THANKS!


 The insertion loss is higher and I'm not impressed with the construction. They used a general purpose circuit board modified for use as a UVSJ.


----------



## Calaveras

nathill said:


> I followed directions and more or less ruined a $200 antenna.



Is there some reason why you can't rotate the elements into their correct positions? Or are the plastic pieces too brittle?


----------



## statmanmi

*Possible VHF antennas (Low & High)*



lifespeed said:


> The repack is forcing a reconfiguration of my UHF-only setup to add VHF. ... However, AFAIK there is not a full-band VHF antenna for sale. ...


Hello lifespeed,

I'm a novice that has geeked out on OTA the last 2 1/2 years. Call me crazy, but in my limited spare time, I've taken to reading this and other forums--and seeking TV antenna trivia from all over the Internet.

Your mention about "full-band VHF antenna" reminded me of what I sought out a few months ago, as I'm contemplating whether I should try to receive RF 5 in my market--the only Low-VHF broadcast. Thus far I haven't acted, but Googled up some things during a few of the cold Michigan evenings before bedtime these last few months. (It'd be the redundant PBS source for me, as it's a satellite of the parent RF 11 PBS that I receive quite consistently off the side of my current RCA ANT3037.)

You or someone mentioned that likely there are no current manufacturers of full-band VHF antennas ("out of print"). I agree.

But, there are apparently a few places with NOS ("new, old stock").

Summit Source in Indiana seemed to have one unit a few months ago, that seemed to show as their last one in stock. Somebody seems to have snagged it, as it's not listed anymore.

But, these might be worth pursuing if your budget allows (since you'd have shipping costs as well):

* Ken's Electronics, Kalamazoo, MI (I'm about an hour north, and have in mind to someday stop in to see this place--the website gives the history):

https://www.kenselectronics.com/lists/tvant.htm

I believe the linked page is attempting to convey that two such Winegards are available: One model HD4053P and one HD5030.


* AMPS, Inc., Albany, MN (Google found this one this week.)

http://www.ampsrs.com/tv-antennas.html

Above page shows a Winegard HD5030. The business notes being, "Your Hometown Appliance and Electronics Store," so they might be a bit surprised if you contact them to ask about purchase and shipping. But if it's in your price range, and they have one or more in the storeroom, more power to you!


* Angel Electronics, Mississauga, Ontario

https://angelelectronics.ca/shop/ota/antennas-direct-all?sort=p.price&order=DESC

They seem to convey that they have some of the long discontinued Antennas Direct VHF models, with the V21 being the highest gain, per past published manufacturer specifications. However, our fellow forum member ADTech that works at Antennas Direct posted a few years ago that there was a known overstatement in the specifications for those VHF models, and an intent to revisit. Apparently instead their Yagi VHF-only units were discontinued.

When you look at the Angel site, make sure you select US Dollar in the drop-down near the top center. I'll advise that I'm a past one-time customer of theirs, ordering 3 of the In-Line FM Trap / FM BAND REJECTION FILTERs that they have incorrectly noted as being from Antennas Direct. I was very satisfied, as what came was indeed 3 units of the pictured MCM 33-341 full FM range traps. The kind of odd thing is that I entered the order on their site, opted to not create an account, and waited about a month before the package came to me in Michigan. I'm unsure if what felt like a delay was with Angel; or a border crossing situation with UPS, as I realize it's not as easy as travelling the 350 direct miles. Thus, my advice would be to create an account to provide your e-mail address--as then maybe some order status e-mails would come.


Enjoy! Cheers! ~~ Statmanmi


----------



## lifespeed

statmanmi said:


> Your mention about "full-band VHF antenna" reminded me of what I sought out a few months ago, as I'm contemplating whether I should try to receive RF 5 in my market--the only Low-VHF broadcast. Thus far I haven't acted, but Googled up some things during a few of the cold Michigan evenings before bedtime these last few months. (It'd be the redundant PBS source for me, as it's a satellite of the parent RF 11 PBS that I receive quite consistently off the side of my current RCA ANT3037.)
> 
> You or someone mentioned that likely there are no current manufacturers of full-band VHF antennas ("out of print"). I agree.
> 
> But, there are apparently a few places with NOS ("new, old stock").


 @statmanmi, thank you very much for the links to full-band VHF old stock. I'll try and grab a HD5030, much better than hacking on a HD8200U.


----------



## nathill

Calaveras said:


> Is there some reason why you can't rotate the elements into their correct positions? Or are the plastic pieces too brittle?



I think it is going to take two people to do it right. One to pull down (with pliers) each of two plastic brackets that prevent the element from moving. The other to spin the element around 180 degrees.
And then a little luck to hope nothing breaks in the process.


----------



## MBrown2020

Wasn't quite happy with the UHF reception from my Stellar Labs 30-2475, so the Stellar Labs 30-2365 came today and connected it up. These are nice antennas. I like how everything comes together with wing nuts, easy to disassemble/assemble to get through the attic hole. Don't think reception can be much better, definitely don't need an amp for UHF. Will combine it with my VHF antenna tonight using Antennas Direct combiner and I should be good to go.


----------



## rabbit73

MBrown2020 said:


> Wasn't quite happy with the UHF reception from my Stellar Labs 30-2475, so the Stellar Labs 30-2365 came today and connected it up.....Will combine it with my VHF antenna tonight using Antennas Direct combiner and I should be good to go.


 Thanks for the report and the GUI image; looks promising.


----------



## MBrown2020

rabbit73 said:


>



So is this the correct picture of the way it should look?


----------



## rabbit73

MBrown2020 said:


> So is this the correct picture of the way it should look?


No, this is:










But in revision 4, the image of the antenna does not match the instructions. The elements do alternate in the image, but they are in reverse order of the instructions. I'm not certain if that would make a difference in performance or not.










https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...-related-hardware-topic-606.html#post59361370

In both the new and old instructions, the first element that you open is on top at the rear, and you rotate it clockwise so that it ends up on the right side (starboard side on a ship) when you are at the rear of the antenna facing forward. The newer Rev4 image shows that element instead on the bottom. OK?


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> But in revision 4, the image of the antenna does not match the instructions. The elements do alternate in the image, but they are in reverse order of the instructions. I'm not certain if that would make a difference in performance or not.



It doesn't make any difference which element half is on the top and which is on the bottom just so long as they alternate.


----------



## rabbit73

Good; thank you. I wasn't sure.

But this couldn't be right, could it?










*Nathill* said his 7698 didn't work right when his elements were like that.



nathill said:


> Rabbit,
> Just went out and checked my old antenna which had pitiful VHF reception. It is currently on the ground. Every VHF element on one side was on top, every VHF element on the other side was on the bottom, just like the picture sited below shows. Unbelievable. I followed directions and more or less ruined a $200 antenna.
> OLD PICTURE WITH INCORRECT VHF ELEMENT PLACEMENT:
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001DFTGRY?tag=duckduckgo-d-20&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> Good; thank you.
> 
> But this couldn't be right, could it?



No, that is not right. No wonder VHF was terrible. The elements don't alternate. Either the elements have to alternate or the feed has to zig-zag.

The attached images show the first log periodic I built. The first image shows two identical antenna halves with alternating half elements. To complete the antenna, one half is flipped over and spaced from the other half to make a complete antenna. You can see each element half alternating top-bottom top-bottom.


----------



## rabbit73

MBrown2020 said:


> So is this the correct picture of the way it should look?


After consulting with *Calaveras*, this is the correct answer to your question:

The antenna should function properly that way because the VHF-High elements alternate, but the pattern of the elements is the reverse of what it would have been if the written instructions had been followed.


----------



## DeweyNC

Curious, 
1) since sometimes ya can get better reception from signals reflecting off large objects like water towers etc,
can that thought also be applied to cell phone towers?

I know someone who is up on & behind a tree line in which is the direction the tv towers are located.
He is using a yaga combo uhf/vhf antenna at roughly 20ft.

Now 180deg behind his antenna is a cell tower about a mile away in clear site.
2) I wonder if aiming his antenna up at the head of the cell tower would make any sense or would he just receive more noise/interference?

Other
from what little Ive found about the cell tower is there is some possible changes coming this Oct & I wonder if there going to start supporting the new lower 600mhz frequencies which will give him issues.
I just recently purchased a CN-3201 LTE filter that I was going to test on my personal antenna but was considering letting him try it 1st.
He also has 1 of those old large satellite tv dishs (mesh style) that we have been curious if putting his antenna in front of would help any even though the dish is closer to the ground. 
Just brainstorming


----------



## rabbit73

Tyler the Antenna Man did a good review of the Winegard HD7694P that showed it performed better than the comparison antennas as expected:






Tyler is usually very accurate, but I noticed that he had unfolded the VHF elements incorrectly. I wonder how much better it would have done if he had opened them correctly. As it is, 11-13 might be better than 7-9 because elements 2 and 3 do alternate. 

Winegard made it difficult for the user when they revised the assembly instructions for the HD7694P and the HD7698/HD8200U; they added too many errors.










This guy got it wrong too:










MikeySoft showed what the elements look like when the antenna comes out of the box. How they look might be misleading, and encourage you to open them the wrong way:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...winegard-ch-7-69-antennas-2.html#post14225284
LL










But MikeySoft got it right:
LL
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...winegard-ch-7-69-antennas-2.html#post14340025


----------



## shoman94

rabbit73 said:


> Tyler the Antenna Man did a good review of the Winegard HD7694P that showed it performed better than the comparison antennas as expected:


These type of antennas are bulky IMO so I prefer Bowties.... Its not like he compared them with any good antennas either.


----------



## rabbit73

shoman94 said:


> These type of antennas are bulky IMO so I prefer Bowties.... Its not like he compared them with any good antennas either.


Every reception location is unique. If you want optimum performance, you must pick the best antenna for that particular location, or suffer with lost signals. My favorite antenna is the DB4e 4-bay bowtie, but it isn't the ideal antenna for all locations.

More than once, a poster who lives on the fringe has told us that his wife said: "I don't like that antenna, it's too big. I want a smaller one." I can recall Tyler saying: "Don't expect a small antenna to do a big antenna job."

Some people have unrealistic expectations, like expecting a DB4e aimed at 331 degrees to also pick up another UHF channel at 49 degrees.
*CORRECTION* 
Should be:

Some people have unrealistic expectations, like expecting a DB4e aimed at 331 degrees to also pick up another UHF channel at 246 degrees. 

I don't know where I got the 49.


----------



## shoman94

rabbit73 said:


> Every reception location is unique. If you want optimum performance, you must pick the best antenna for that particular location, or suffer with lost signals. My favorite antenna is the DB4e 4-bay bowtie, but it isn't the ideal antenna for all locations.
> 
> More than once, a poster who lives on the fringe has told us that his wife said: "I don't like that antenna, it's too big. I want a smaller one." I can recall Tyler saying: "Don't expect a small antenna to do a big antenna job."


Yea I hear you... location specific and use specific for sure. Part of the use specifics is the looks for sure... it does matter to me. hahaha 

It surprises me that you say the 4bay bowtie is your favorite since I feel like you recommend the 7694 than most.


----------



## rabbit73

I suggest the 7694 a lot because it is a good medium gain combo antenna for UHF and VHF-High for a reasonable price. The DB4e is primarily for UHF.

There are two things I don't like about the 7694: the black CB-8269 balun housing that sometimes doesn't make a good connection with the wires from each section, and the poor assembly instructions that don't tell the user how to properly unfold the VHF elements to form a LPDA.

The first TV antenna I bought was an original CM4221. The first TV antenna that I built was a 4-bay optimized for channel 15 for a friend (attic).


----------



## rabbit73

DeweyNC said:


> Curious,
> 1) since sometimes ya can get better reception from signals reflecting off large objects like water towers etc,
> can that thought also be applied to cell phone towers?
> 
> I know someone who is up on & behind a tree line in which is the direction the tv towers are located.
> He is using a yaga combo uhf/vhf antenna at roughly 20ft.
> 
> Now 180deg behind his antenna is a cell tower about a mile away in clear site.
> 2) I wonder if aiming his antenna up at the head of the cell tower would make any sense or would he just receive more noise/interference?


Hello, DeweyNC

The cell tower is a smaller reflector, so it might not work as well. Also, the TV antenna would be aimed at a possible source of interference. You would have to try it.



> Other
> from what little Ive found about the cell tower is there is some possible changes coming this Oct & I wonder if there going to start supporting the new lower 600mhz frequencies which will give him issues.


Whether the lower frequencies will be used depends upon the cell carriers in that particular area.



> I just recently purchased a CN-3201 LTE filter that I was going to test on my personal antenna but was considering letting him try it 1st.


Did they send you the new CM-3201 or the old CM-3201?












> He also has 1 of those old large satellite tv dishs (mesh style) that we have been curious if putting his antenna in front of would help any even though the dish is closer to the ground.


Probably not, but you can try it.


----------



## DeweyNC

Gotcha, I happened to mention to him about the possible changes in Oct & he then said they just recently had a large crane set up at the cell tower.
Makes me wonder if they have made the modification for what ever is to happen in Oct.
We mainly have US Cellurlar & Verison around here but the cell towers in question arnt close to large towns.


rabbit73 said:


> Hello, DeweyNC
> 
> Whether the lower frequencies will be used depends upon the cell carriers in that particular area.









I had somewhat been watching this thread the past few months & seen the issues others were having getting the older LTE from amazon etc.
I ordered straight from ChannelMaster website & in the comment section of the order I added

"CM-3201 Frequencies Pass 5-599 Mhz, Frequencies Block 600-2000Mhz "

in hopes to reduce the chance of getting the incorrect filter.



I bought the filter to test as I have a cell tower roughly 1-1.5 miles away at about 45deg South of from where my old style single yaga combo is pointed. 
The tv tower I want to point my antenna to is basically closer in line to the cell tower, my antenna is currently pointed towards a area that has a water tower about maybe 3-4 miles away. (Playing with line drawing tools Im pretty close in line to the water tower but on the Northern side, I should be on the South side of the water tower). 
I ended up with the current aim of my antenna when trying to get a weaker station/tower (after the repack) that is now about 90deg off from my current aim & Im thinking now that cell tower may had been causing me issues.

Sometimes I lose sound & I can change the channel & switch back to it & the sound comes back.
Im not sure if the filter will help with anything but I may end up needing it in the future.



rabbit73 said:


> Did they send you the new CM-3201 or the old CM-3201?


.


----------



## rabbit73

shoman94 said:


> You might want to get your facts straight (or eyes checked) before making comments like this.


My "facts" vary:


shoman94 said:


> I aimed at 331 TRUE and only have some issues with 26-1.
> Last edited by shoman94; 13-Mar-2020 at 5:46 PM.


26-1 is is WMEA-TV PBS on real channel 36 at 245 degrees.


> I took off the juice preamp and everything is coming in better now. Even PBS is watchable now but it does have a 12ish% error rate with the sun out so I'll see what happened tonight.
> Last edited by shoman94; 15-Mar-2020 at 10:45 PM.





shoman94 said:


> Like I said I have no issues currently besides WMEA (RF36) that is on the backside/side of my antenna with approx. a 10% error rate depending on the time of date. I have no feal care to improve WMEA since I barely watch it but wouldn't installing a Channel Master LTE filter block that channel?





> I suppose I could use a distribution splitter instead of a passive filter. to make up the 3.5db loss.(on 36)


If you no longer care about PBS, then you no longer have the expectation of being able to receive channel 36 with the DB4e aimed at 331 degrees.


----------



## shoman94

rabbit73 said:


> My "facts" vary:
> 
> 26-1 is is WMEA-TV PBS on real channel 36 at 245 degrees.
> 
> If you no longer care about PBS, then you no longer have the expectation of being able to receive channel 36 with the DB4e aimed at 331 degrees.


I specifically did not say I wants WMTW at 49 degrees.


I don't care to have a perfect signal with PBS. I said since I don't watch it often and it's more or less on the back side my antenna that has a backside lobe in the general area of RF36. Yesterday the WMEA tower was down all day for maintenance and I watched it last night for an hour with no signal errors. This tower was just repacked and started broadcasting on March 11th.



Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## rabbit73

You are correct; I made an error. WMEA-TV PBS is at 246 degreers, not 49 degrees. 
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=69987
I should have said:
Some people have unrealistic expectations, like expecting a DB4e aimed at 331 degrees to also pick up another UHF channel at 246 degrees.


----------



## shoman94

rabbit73 said:


> You are correct; I made an error. WMEA-TV PBS is at 246 degreers, not 29 degrees.
> https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=69987
> I should have said:
> Some people have unrealistic expectations, like expecting a DB4e aimed at 331 degrees to also pick up another UHF channel at 246 degrees.


Yes that is accurate but saying it's unrealistic? The backside capabilities of the DB4e in relation to the distance and heading of WMEA make it a great candidate IMO. What I question is the closeness of the 600mhz LTE and 5G channels to RF 36. I'm curious if adding the filter will help with the glitches I see once in a while.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## rabbit73

Oh, I did it again; I put 29 instead of 49. I think I got the 49 from WMTW on 26.

I'm a little distracted because the retirement facility I'm staying at just went on lockdown; no visitors and eat in the room instead of the dining room.



> Yes that is accurate but saying it's unrealistic? The backside capabilities of the DB4e in relation to the distance and heading of WMEA make it a great candidate IMO.


https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/DB4E-TDS.pdf










It's difficult to predict your reception results off the rear or side. It's not just a matter of signal strength, there is also multipath when the antenna is not aimed at the desired channel.

I had a signal off the rear that couldn't be decoded. It was strong enough, but consisted mostly of reflections from in front of the antenna. 










I went across the street and setup a 2-bay UHF antenna, my meter, and a preamp. I was able to get a nice scan and a stronger signal with the antenna aimed at the transmitter for CH42.




























A second antenna would provide the best reception for a channel in another direction.



> What I question is the closeness of the 600mhz LTE and 5G channels I'm curious if adding the filter will help with the glitches I see once in a while.


Also difficult to predict because you are not certain about the cause of the glitches: weak signal, multipath, or interference. You just have to try it.

A spectrum analyzer might help to look at the signals above 36, but they are expensive. You can use a $20 SDR dongle with free open-source spectrum analyzer software to look at the signals above 36. This scan didn't go that high, but it shows you what it might look like:


----------



## shoman94

rabbit73 said:


> Oh, I did it again; I put 29 instead of 49.
> 
> I'm a little distracted because the retirement facility I'm staying at just went on lockdown; no visitors and eat in the room instead of the dining room.
> 
> https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/DB4E-TDS.pdf
> 
> It's difficult to predict your reception results off the rear. It's not just a matter of signal strength, there is also multipath when the antenna is not aimed at the desired channel.
> 
> I had a signal off the rear that couldn't be decoded. It was strong enough, but consisted mostly of reflections from in front of the antenna.
> 
> 
> 
> I went across the street and setup a 2-bay UHF antenna, my meter, and a preamp. I was able to get a nice scan and a stronger signal with the antenna aimed at the transmitter for CH42.
> 
> 
> 
> A second antenna would provide the best reception for a channel in another direction.
> 
> Also difficult to predict because you are not certain about the cause of the glitches: weak signal, multipath, or interference. You just have to try it.
> 
> A spectrum analyzer might help to look at the signals above 36, but they are expensive. You can use a $20 SDR dongle with free open-source spectrum analyzer software to look at the signals above 36.


Stay safe!! We are at a crazy time. My kids and wife are mandated to stay home from work/school now.

WMEA is currently the only channel that the Signal Quality is bouncing from 65% to 85% constantly with a signal strength of 58ish%. I'm thinking that bounce is either Multi-path or LTE Interference. The rest are solid of my channels are steady. I could turn my Antenna towards WMEA more but right now for some reason WPFO would cause me a problem if I do even if WGME on the same tower doesn't. WGME is a much stronger signal.

I can see the signals above RF 36 using my HDHR Config software.

Scanning all the channels with my HDHR Connect, here is where I am picking up a signal of 60% or greater:

RF39 - 4G/LTE - 623mhz - 620-626
RF40 - 4G/LTE - 629mhz - 626-632
RF57 - 4G/LTE - 731mhz - 728-734
RF58 - 4G/LTE - 737mhz - 734-740
RF59 - 4G/LTE - 743mhz - 740-746
RF60 - 4G/LTE - 749mhz - 746-752
RF61 - 4G/LTE - 755mhz - 752-758
RF62 - 4G/LTE - 761mhz - 758-764
RF63 - 4G/LTE - 767mhz - 764-770


----------



## rabbit73

shoman94 said:


> I can see the signals above RF 36 using my HDHR Config software.
> 
> Scanning all the channels with my HDHR Connect, here is where I am picking up a signal of 60% or greater:
> 
> RF39 - 4G/LTE - 623mhz - 620-626
> RF40 - 4G/LTE - 629mhz - 626-632
> RF57 - 4G/LTE - 731mhz - 728-734
> RF58 - 4G/LTE - 737mhz - 734-740
> RF59 - 4G/LTE - 743mhz - 740-746
> RF60 - 4G/LTE - 749mhz - 746-752
> RF61 - 4G/LTE - 755mhz - 752-758
> RF62 - 4G/LTE - 761mhz - 758-764
> RF63 - 4G/LTE - 767mhz - 764-770


Looks like they have moved in. I think the LTE filter is worth a try.


----------



## shoman94

rabbit73 said:


> Looks like they have moved in. I think the LTE filter is worth a try.


It is cheap enough, I guess its worth a shot. What do you think about the idea of installing it at the antenna before or after the VHF/UHF Combiner and on the UFH side if before? If it is after the combiner does it matter if its at the antenna or in the house at the splitter?


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## DeweyNC

Just sharing what ChannelMaster recommends
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/downloads.channelmaster.com/Sheets/3201_Instruction+Sheet_Press_2DEC19.pdf








shoman94 said:


> It is cheap enough, I guess its worth a shot. What do you think about the idea of installing it at the antenna before or after the VHF/UHF Combiner and on the UFH side if before? If it is after the combiner does it matter if its at the antenna or in the house at the splitter?


----------



## rabbit73

shoman94 said:


> It is cheap enough, I guess its worth a shot. What do you think about the idea of installing it at the antenna before or after the VHF/UHF Combiner and on the UFH side if before? If it is after the combiner does it matter if its at the antenna or in the house at the splitter?


What combiner are you using?

Preamp or no preamp?

Is the coax shield grounded?


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## shoman94

rabbit73 said:


> What combiner are you using?
> 
> Preamp or no preamp?
> 
> Is the coax shield grounded?


Antennas direct combiner that comes with their dipole kit. 

I removed the preamp.... Not needed anymore and causes errors.

I have a ground splice at the roof I haven't had time to ground yet and the splitter indoors is connected to ground.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## shoman94

DeweyNC said:


> Just sharing what ChannelMaster recommends
> 
> https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/...heets/3201_Instruction+Sheet_Press_2DEC19.pdf


Yea I saw that, looks like they don't care where you put it. 

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## rabbit73

shoman94 said:


> Antennas direct combiner that comes with their dipole kit.
> 
> I removed the preamp.... Not needed anymore and causes errors.
> 
> I have a ground splice at the roof I haven't had time to ground yet and the splitter indoors is connected to ground.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


Good

Filter can go downstream out of the weather.

Grounding the coax shield might make the filter more effective; you have to try it.


----------



## lifespeed

shoman94 said:


> Scanning all the channels with my HDHR Connect, here is where I am picking up a signal of 60% or greater:
> 
> RF39 - 4G/LTE - 623mhz - 620-626
> RF40 - 4G/LTE - 629mhz - 626-632
> RF57 - 4G/LTE - 731mhz - 728-734
> RF58 - 4G/LTE - 737mhz - 734-740
> RF59 - 4G/LTE - 743mhz - 740-746
> RF60 - 4G/LTE - 749mhz - 746-752
> RF61 - 4G/LTE - 755mhz - 752-758
> RF62 - 4G/LTE - 761mhz - 758-764
> RF63 - 4G/LTE - 767mhz - 764-770



If you're already using a Silicondust networked tuner you're halfway to the ideal solution for transmitters in different locations: add an antenna and tuner, "joining" them in your network. you can select which channel is received from which tuner in the web interface for a seamless, rotor-less, DVR-friendly solution.


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## shoman94

lifespeed said:


> If you're already using a Silicondust networked tuner you're halfway to the ideal solution for transmitters in different locations: add an antenna and tuner, "joining" them in your network. you can select which channel is received from which tuner in the web interface for a seamless, rotor-less, DVR-friendly solution.


Thanks I've thought about that but it's not really needed. I'm just about there. I just need some fine tuning.

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----------



## shoman94

rabbit73 said:


> Good
> 
> Filter can go downstream out of the weather.
> 
> Grounding the coax shield makes the filter more effective.


Thank you.

My combiner is not the one sold on Antenna Directs website. It looks like a power inserter.

I have that at the antenna and I have a weather proof box at the base of the antenna with the combiner inside it and have room for the late filter in there if need be.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## lifespeed

shoman94 said:


> Thanks I've thought about that but it's not really needed. I'm just about there. I just need some fine tuning.



Or it will forever be on the edge cutting out just often enough to drive you nuts. That's what I thought too, see what I ended up with in my avatar photo.


----------



## shoman94

lifespeed said:


> Or it will forever be on the edge cutting out just often enough to drive you nuts. That's what I thought too, see what I ended up with in my avatar photo.


Thanks, I'm gonna try out the LTE Filter and see what happens first. Honestly I don't watch PBS enough that would warrant me adding another antenna for one channel.

I just removed my Passive splitter and re-installed my PCT Distribution amp and it increased my signals by 10-15% depending on the channel. For PBS it went from 55% to 73% but the signal quality came up some to average 75% but still from 60ish to 80ish% about every 30 seconds. In the last 30 minutes I probably saw a video glitch about once every 5-10 min.

I'm hoping this is due to the Tmobile 600mhz towers I have within 2 miles of my house running both 4G-LTE and 5G.

I'll know more in a week or two when I get the filter.


----------



## lifespeed

shoman94 said:


> Thanks, I'm gonna try out the LTE Filter and see what happens first. Honestly I don't watch PBS enough that would warrant me adding another antenna for one channel.
> 
> I just removed my Passive splitter and re-installed my PCT Distribution amp and it increased my signals by 10-15% depending on the channel. For PBS it went from 55% to 73% but the signal quality came up some to average 75% but still from 60ish to 80ish% about every 30 seconds. In the last 30 minutes I probably saw a video glitch about once every 5-10 min.
> 
> I'm hoping this is due to the Tmobile 600mhz towers I have within 2 miles of my house running both 4G-LTE and 5G.
> 
> I'll know more in a week or two when I get the filter.



It's easy enough to try the LTE filter, but at two miles I doubt it. If it isn't worth bothering, there's your answer.


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## shoman94

lifespeed said:


> It's easy enough to try the LTE filter, but at two miles I doubt it. If it isn't worth bothering, there's your answer.


I just mapped it and it looks like one tower is 3/4 mile, another is two towers is 2 miles and the third is 2.5 miles.

Getting 100% signal with most of them in the 600mhz and 700mhz frequencies as I posted above.


----------



## shoman94

Adding the filter made zero difference for channel 36 and my 600mhz signals nearby it appears. I don't have the coax grounded outside yet so I'll try it again when I get a chance to add the ground. 
It's probably multi-path signal I'm getting. I can fine tune the antenna a bit more but I'm very happy with all the channels I care about. Great signals with zero glitches.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## rabbit73

shoman94 said:


> Adding the filter made zero difference for channel 36 and my 600mhz signals nearby it appears. I don't have the coax grounded outside yet so I'll try it again when I get a chance to add the ground.
> It's probably multi-path signal I'm getting. I can fine tune the antenna a bit more but I'm very happy with all the channels I care about. Great signals with zero glitches.


 Thank you for the report from Maine. Keep working on it.

When I was a kid, my parents took me to Orr's Island where I learned to love blueberry pie.

After I was married, I took my wife to Bar Harbor and then to Montreal for the Expo '67 World's Fair. 

Not much activity on this forum. Understandably, people are concerned about other problems now.


----------



## lifespeed

shoman94 said:


> Adding the filter made zero difference for channel 36 and my 600mhz signals nearby it appears. I don't have the coax grounded outside yet so I'll try it again when I get a chance to add the ground.


 Now you know the answer, without testing it was merely a guess. Grounding is technically correct and should be done, including the mast. It might not improve reception either.


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## shoman94

rabbit73 said:


> Thank you for the report from Maine. Keep working on it.
> 
> When I was a kid, my parents took me to Orr's Island where I learned to love blueberry pie.
> 
> After I was married, I took my wife to Bar Harbor and then to Montreal for the Expo '67 World's Fair.
> 
> Not much activity on this forum. Understandably, people are concerned about other problems now.


Yea I'm in Southern Maine about 15 min south of Portland but I grew up in the northern tip of Maine. Blueberries are big here.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## shoman94

lifespeed said:


> Now you know the answer, without testing it was merely a guess. Grounding is technically correct and should be done, including the mast. It might not improve reception either.


Yea I'll ground it and the mast and install the filter up at the antenna because I can't hurt. I'm sure the tower ¾ of a mile from me will get 600mhz soon. I can also fine tune the direction of the antenna to see if I can get it to improve it. The other option I have is to remove the reflector off the DB4e. Can I remove the reflector by just unthreading the reflector stand offs and just attach the bow tie section to the mast or do I really need to drill the rivets to remove the reflector and keep the standoffs and back frame?


Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## lifespeed

shoman94 said:


> Yea I'll ground it and the mast and install the filter up at the antenna because I can't hurt. I'm sure the tower ¾ of a mile from me will get 600mhz soon. I can also fine tune the direction of the antenna to see if I can get it to improve it. The other option I have is to remove the reflector off the DB4e. Can I remove the reflector by just unthreading the reflector stand offs and just attach the bow tie section to the mast or do I really need to drill the rivets to remove the reflector and keep the standoffs and back


 there you go again with clever shortcuts no one has ever thought of before. 
If you don't need the filter, it only adds loss. I wouldn't use it.


----------



## Squirrel!

rabbit73 said:


> A second antenna would provide the best reception for a channel in another direction.


Agreed. I use to have 3 antenna's, 1 UHF pointed to Cinti, 1 UHF pointed at Dayton, 1 VHF pointed to Cinti. I got well over 50 channels off the antennas alone. I live about 35 miles from all antennas and LOTS of trees between here and there. I primarily put the 2nd UHF up because I wanted football games that were broadcast on Dayton stations but not Cinti stations. I do have doubles on channels, but late at night and weekends, all the programming is usually different. Had this setup since '07.

Inside I use an amplifier (I'd have nothing without it) that inputs to my power conditioner input and splits from there. I split the closest line one more time and have 3 televisions connected.

Since the picture was taken, about 6 years later, I removed the Dayton UHF antenna due to issues to the antenna itself being damaged.


----------



## Calaveras

shoman94 said:


> Adding the filter made zero difference for channel 36 and my 600mhz signals nearby it appears. I don't have the coax grounded outside yet so I'll try it again when I get a chance to add the ground.



It's very unlikely that grounding the coax will do anything at UHF frequencies. Grounding the coax is a great idea for some lightning protection but it's not an RF ground at UHF. Any piece of wire longer than about 1" to 2" between the coax and the earth ground point at UHF frequencies is an antenna.

It's common to think that any length wire attached to the coax shield at one end and an earth ground at the other will act like a sink and anything unwanted on the shield will just flow into the ground and disappear. It doesn't work like that at RF frequencies. A ground wire at RF frequencies needs to be a small percentage of the wavelength at which you're operating. At 1 MHz in the AM broadcast band, a wavelength is 984 feet. A 10' piece of wire is just 1% of the wavelength so that'll act like a pretty good ground. At 600 MHz 1% of the wavelength is just 0.2 inches! If you used a 5' piece of wire from your coax to the earth ground at 600 MHz, that's the equivalent of using a 3000' piece of wire to make a ground connection at 1 MHz. Does anyone think that would work? 

At RF frequencies there are other methods to eliminate currents flowing on the coax shield. If proper RF design of the device at each end of the coax is not enough, then ferrite beads can be placed over the coax to choke off the currents. You just need to know what are the problem frequencies so that you buy beads that cover that frequency range.

A detailed discussion of RFI issues can be found here: http://audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf

Of particular interest is "Ground Wiring" on page 4.


----------



## shoman94

lifespeed said:


> there you go again with clever shortcuts no one has ever thought of before.
> If you don't need the filter, it only adds loss. I wouldn't use it.


I'm just wondering if the shortcut works...  Of anyone tried it.


The LTE filter doesn't really affect my signal as tested by Rabbit73. For channel 36 I only saw a 2% drop in strength and zero difference in in signal quality or symbol. 

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## shoman94

Squirrel! said:


> Agreed. I use to have 3 antenna's, 1 UHF pointed to Cinti, 1 UHF pointed at Dayton, 1 VHF pointed to Cinti. I got well over 50 channels off the antennas alone. I live about 35 miles from all antennas and LOTS of trees between here and there. I primarily put the 2nd UHF up because I wanted football games that were broadcast on Dayton stations but not Cinti stations. I do have doubles on channels, but late at night and weekends, all the programming is usually different. Had this setup since '07.
> 
> 
> 
> Inside I use an amplifier (I'd have nothing without it) that inputs to my power conditioner input and splits from there. I split the closest line one more time and have 3 televisions connected.
> 
> 
> 
> Since the picture was taken, about 6 years later, I removed the Dayton UHF antenna due to issues to the antenna itself being damaged.


For one UHF channel it's not worth the aggravation and likely too cause more multi-path issues because I have some fairly close networks. I had to remove my pre-amp because it caused all kids of signal problems after the repack.

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## shoman94

Calaveras said:


> It's very unlikely that grounding the coax will do anything at UHF frequencies. Grounding the coax is a great idea for some lightning protection but it's not an RF ground at UHF. Any piece of wire longer than about 1" to 2" between the coax and the earth ground point at UHF frequencies is an antenna.
> 
> 
> 
> It's common to think that any length wire attached to the coax shield at one end and an earth ground at the other will act like a sink and anything unwanted on the shield will just flow into the ground and disappear. It doesn't work like that at RF frequencies. A ground wire at RF frequencies needs to be a small percentage of the wavelength at which you're operating. At 1 MHz in the AM broadcast band, a wavelength is 984 feet. A 10' piece of wire is just 1% of the wavelength so that'll act like a pretty good ground. At 600 MHz 1% of the wavelength is just 0.2 inches! If you used a 5' piece of wire from your coax to the earth ground at 600 MHz, that's the equivalent of using a 3000' piece of wire to make a ground connection at 1 MHz. Does anyone think that would work?
> 
> 
> 
> At RF frequencies there are other methods to eliminate currents flowing on the coax shield. If proper RF design of the device at each end of the coax is not enough, then ferrite beads can be placed over the coax to choke off the currents. You just need to know what are the problem frequencies so that you buy beads that cover that frequency range.
> 
> 
> 
> A detailed discussion of RFI issues can be found here: http://audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Of particular interest is "Ground Wiring" on page 4.


Rabbit73 said grounding the RG6 improved the LTE filter effectiveness.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## MBrown2020

Hello, If I had a single UHF/VHF-Hi antenna like Winegard HD7694P and wanted to amplify just the VHF channel. What would be the best way to accomplish this? RG6 coax is 20' from attic to basement.


Would my diagram be the best way? (See Pic)


----------



## shoman94

MBrown2020 said:


> Hello, If I had a single UHF/VHF-Hi antenna like Winegard HD7694P and wanted to amplify just the VHF channel. What would be the best way to accomplish this? RG6 coax is 20' from attic to basement.
> 
> 
> Would my diagram be the best way? (See Pic)


Normally you could boost before the VHF/UHF combiner but I don't know if you can do that with your antenna.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Steve347

*RG6 Cabling Options?*

I bought some RG6 cable several years back in anticipation of upgrading my 50-60 foot antenna run. Now that I have some free time thanks to the virus I was looking at installing it but unfortunately I have run into some questions / issues. 

While trying and failing to find some suitable "F" connectors I stripped back the end of this coax and found that it is single un-tinned copper braid (no foil) and am now wondering about the quality and whether or not I should get better cable. The cable is marked JSC Wire & Cable RG-6/U Type #3522 18 AWG. The center conductor is solid copper. I posted about this cable before but was never able to find exact matching data.

I am also looking for some right angle connectors (or adapters) to go inside of the wall box as RG-6 is not very flexible. Any recommendations on what to do here?

As far as "F" connector fittings I see either compression or screw-on. Any preference or specific models? The screw-ons look more compact and may fit inside a wall box better but I don't know about loss or reliability.

I am also looking for suggestions on where to buy this stuff either locally or on line. We have plenty of HD and Lowes locally for big boxes. No other electronic stores since Radio Shack has disappeared.

Thanks,
Steve


----------



## rabbit73

MBrown2020 said:


> Hello, If I had a single UHF/VHF-Hi antenna like Winegard HD7694P and wanted to amplify just the VHF channel. What would be the best way to accomplish this? RG6 coax is 20' from attic to basement.
> 
> Would my diagram be the best way? (See Pic)


Yes, that should work. There will be a small insertion loss for UHF.


----------



## rabbit73

shoman94 said:


> Normally you could boost before the VHF/UHF combiner but I don't know if you can do that with your antenna.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


The 7694 contains a UHF/VHF combiner in the black CB-8269 housing on the bottom of the antenna. He would have to separate the two sections of the antenna and add a balun for each.





































His solution of using 2 UVSJs is easier.


----------



## hdtvluvr

I will soon be adding the LTE filter to my Winegard HD7084P *ATTIC* antenna. Previous posts said that the coax needed to be grounded if the filter is used. Then a post above said the grounding wire could act as an antenna causing issues. Not sure what to do. If I add the filter, how should it be connected?

1. Antenna, LTE filter, coax grounding block, TV

OR

2. Antenna, coax grounding block, LTE filter, TV

I do have a cold water pipe near this antenna in the attic that I could connect the ground wire. What sort of connector should be used to attach it? I don't want to set up galvanic corrosion and cause a leak. A link to the appropriate fitting would be great.


----------



## richart

Steve347 said:


> *RG6 Cabling Options?*
> ...
> While trying and failing to find some suitable "F" connectors I stripped back the end of this coax and found that it is single un-tinned copper braid (no foil) and am now wondering about the quality and whether or not I should get better cable. The cable is marked JSC Wire & Cable RG-6/U Type #3522 18 AWG. The center conductor is solid copper. I posted about this cable before but was never able to find exact matching data.
> ...
> As far as "F" connector fittings I see either compression or screw-on. Any preference or specific models? The screw-ons look more compact and may fit inside a wall box better but I don't know about loss or reliability.
> ...


I prefer RG-6 with tinned copper or aluminum braid and 1 foil layer (known as double shielded). Quad shielded is available, but is overkill for OTA TV. I also prefer a solid copper center conductor, but copper clad steel probably performs just as well and costs less.

As far as F connectors, in my opinion the compression fittings are superior to screw on or crimp on. Any outside connectors in my system are wrapped with silicone sealing tape.


----------



## richart

hdtvluvr said:


> I will soon be adding the LTE filter to my Winegard HD7084P *ATTIC* antenna. Previous posts said that the coax needed to be grounded if the filter is used. Then a post above said the grounding wire could act as an antenna causing issues. Not sure what to do. If I add the filter, how should it be connected?
> 
> 1. Antenna, LTE filter, coax grounding block, TV
> 
> OR
> 
> 2. Antenna, coax grounding block, LTE filter, TV
> 
> I do have a cold water pipe near this antenna in the attic that I could connect the ground wire. What sort of connector should be used to attach it? I don't want to set up galvanic corrosion and cause a leak. A link to the appropriate fitting would be great.


Since you have an indoor attic mounted system you should be OK using a ground clamp like this one. They are available at any big box home supply store. I doubt in your circumstances that it would make any difference where in the system you mount the grounding block as long as you keep the grounding wire as short as conveniently possible.


----------



## Squirrel!

Steve347 said:


> *RG6 Cabling Options?*
> 
> I bought some RG6 cable several years back in anticipation of upgrading my 50-60 foot antenna run. Now that I have some free time thanks to the virus I was looking at installing it but unfortunately I have run into some questions / issues.
> 
> While trying and failing to find some suitable "F" connectors I stripped back the end of this coax and found that it is single un-tinned copper braid (no foil) and am now wondering about the quality and whether or not I should get better cable. The cable is marked JSC Wire & Cable RG-6/U Type #3522 18 AWG. The center conductor is solid copper. I posted about this cable before but was never able to find exact matching data.
> 
> I am also looking for some right angle connectors (or adapters) to go inside of the wall box as RG-6 is not very flexible. Any recommendations on what to do here?
> 
> As far as "F" connector fittings I see either compression or screw-on. Any preference or specific models? The screw-ons look more compact and may fit inside a wall box better but I don't know about loss or reliability.
> 
> I am also looking for suggestions on where to buy this stuff either locally or on line. We have plenty of HD and Lowes locally for big boxes. No other electronic stores since Radio Shack has disappeared.
> 
> Thanks,
> Steve


Essentially, you have wire used by the satellite companies. I use the exact same for my setup. 
Fittings: Compression only. DO NOT use (shudder) screw ons.
90 degree angle fittings, https://www.google.com/search?q=coa...rome..69i57.5271j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


----------



## rabbit73

hdtvluvr said:


> I will soon be adding the LTE filter to my Winegard HD7084P *ATTIC* antenna. Previous posts said that the coax needed to be grounded if the filter is used. Then a post above said the grounding wire could act as an antenna causing issues. Not sure what to do. If I add the filter, how should it be connected?
> 
> 1. Antenna, LTE filter, coax grounding block, TV
> 
> OR
> 
> 2. Antenna, coax grounding block, LTE filter, TV
> 
> I do have a cold water pipe near this antenna in the attic that I could connect the ground wire. What sort of connector should be used to attach it? I don't want to set up galvanic corrosion and cause a leak. A link to the appropriate fitting would be great.


First try the LTE filter without grounding the coax shield to see if it makes a difference.

It is true that the length of the grounding wire can make a difference in some situations. I can recall having RF on my amateur transceiver case when the length of the grounding wire was just right for the RF voltage to bite me.

However, in your situation, the coax shield is also a long wire. The shield of the coax should be at the same potential as the house electrical system ground for electrical safety. I don't know if that water pipe is at the same potential as the house electrical system ground. This bronze clamp is suitable for copper or steel:
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Sigma-Electric-ProConnex-1-2-in-Grounding-Clamp-Conduit-Fitting/1100145

Grounding the coax often improves the performance of a filter; it keeps the undesired signals from getting directly into the tuner. So, I would think that you can also try grounding the coax shield with a grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground further down nearer the TV.


----------



## Calaveras

shoman94 said:


> Rabbit73 said grounding the RG6 improved the LTE filter effectiveness.



No matter what his anecdotal experience may be, it doesn't change RF theory. There are all kinds of stories in the RF world that seem to go against established theory. When these comes up it doesn't mean the theory is wrong, it means we don't understand what happened in each case. These cases are often not repeatable for another person with a different setup and set of circumstances. It's very easy to fool ourselves into believing something that isn't true. If you want to know more read the document I linked to, especially page 4. K9YC knows what he's talking about.


----------



## shoman94

Steve347 said:


> *RG6 Cabling Options?*
> 
> 
> 
> I bought some RG6 cable several years back in anticipation of upgrading my 50-60 foot antenna run. Now that I have some free time thanks to the virus I was looking at installing it but unfortunately I have run into some questions / issues.
> 
> 
> 
> While trying and failing to find some suitable "F" connectors I stripped back the end of this coax and found that it is single un-tinned copper braid (no foil) and am now wondering about the quality and whether or not I should get better cable. The cable is marked JSC Wire & Cable RG-6/U Type #3522 18 AWG. The center conductor is solid copper. I posted about this cable before but was never able to find exact matching data.
> 
> 
> 
> I am also looking for some right angle connectors (or adapters) to go inside of the wall box as RG-6 is not very flexible. Any recommendations on what to do here?
> 
> 
> 
> As far as "F" connector fittings I see either compression or screw-on. Any preference or specific models? The screw-ons look more compact and may fit inside a wall box better but I don't know about loss or reliability.
> 
> 
> 
> I am also looking for suggestions on where to buy this stuff either locally or on line. We have plenty of HD and Lowes locally for big boxes. No other electronic stores since Radio Shack has disappeared.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Steve







Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## rabbit73

Calaveras said:


> No matter what his anecdotal experience may be, it doesn't change RF theory. There are all kinds of stories in the RF world that seem to go against established theory. When these comes up it doesn't mean the theory is wrong, it means we don't understand what happened in each case. These cases are often not repeatable for another person with a different setup and set of circumstances. It's very easy to fool ourselves into believing something that isn't true. If you want to know more read the document I linked to, especially page 4. K9YC knows what he's talking about.


 Yeah, grounding is unpredictable; you have to try it.

I do have a case where more than 50dB of attenuation didn't stop the interference until the coax was grounded. It was going around the filter to the TV tuner when the coax wasn't grounded.

What link?


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> First try the LTE filter without grounding the coax shield to see if it makes a difference.
> 
> It is true that the length of the grounding wire can make a difference in some situations. I can recall having RF on my amateur transceiver case when the length of the grounding wire was just right for the RF voltage to bite me.
> 
> Grounding the coax often improves the performance of a filter; it keeps the undesired signals from getting directly into the tuner. So, I would think that you can also try grounding the coax shield with a grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground further down nearer the TV.



Sorry, but I can't let this go. Grounding the coax doesn't keep undesired signals on the coax shield from getting into the tuner because this type of grounding is not an RF ground. The fact that you admit that changing the length of the ground wire or changing where along the length of the coax the tap for the ground is located changes the results, says that it is not an RF ground. You should stop passing along this incorrect information and do some research into how RF grounding actually works and recommend solutions based on theory. Making recommendations based on anecdotal information does not help others because it is not repeatable. You don't have to believe me. Read the K9YC paper I posted a link to. He knows what he's talking about.

If you are getting bit by RF in the shack then that is also telling you that your ground is not an RF ground. The proper way to stop that is with an RF choke at the antenna feed point.


----------



## rabbit73

Is there some law that says he isn't allowed to test it?


I still don't see the K9YC link.


----------



## Calaveras

MBrown2020 said:


> Hello, If I had a single UHF/VHF-Hi antenna like Winegard HD7694P and wanted to amplify just the VHF channel. What would be the best way to accomplish this? RG6 coax is 20' from attic to basement.
> 
> 
> Would my diagram be the best way? (See Pic)



Considering that the loss of 20' of RG6 on high VHF is only about 0.5 dB, it's unlikely a preamp will get you anything. Environmental noise is also a bit higher on high VHF than UHF so even the lower noise figure of the preamp over the TV will be of little benefit. If you think you need a little more gain to overcome splitter losses, I'd use a distribution amp. The CM34xx series has low gain and is unlikely to overload in most cases. They have a lower noise figure than the TV tuners so you'll actually get some SNR improvement over no preamp.


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> Is there some law that says he isn't allowed to test it?


There's no point in telling people to run a test based on irrelevant, non-repeatable anecdotal information. You have no idea why connecting a random length ground wire to a piece of coax happened to produce the results you wanted sometime in the past. I have no problem telling someone to run a test if the proposed test reliably solves a problem. If the test doesn't solve the problem then we know the cause of the problem is something else and we can make another suggestion. The ground wire test is not a reliable solution to any problem except some lightning protection. Running a test for a problem for which it is not a solution doesn't tell us anything and is a waste of time.




rabbit73 said:


> I still don't see the K9YC link.


See Post #18214 .


----------



## Calaveras

shoman94 said:


> For channel 36 I only saw a 2% drop in strength and zero difference in in signal quality or symbol.



I've noticed that you and some other people are posting Symbol Quality. Unlike Signal Strength and Signal Quality, any number other than 100% is not a watchable picture. I believe any number less than 100% means uncorrected errors and the picture will be pixelated and there will be audio problems. Symbol Quality doesn't tell you much of anything to help in troubleshooting reception problems. I don't know why any TV bothers to show it. Signal Strength and Signal Quality are what you really need to know.


----------



## shoman94

Calaveras said:


> I've noticed that you and some other people are posting Symbol Quality. Unlike Signal Strength and Signal Quality, any number other than 100% is not a watchable picture. I believe any number less than 100% means uncorrected errors and the picture will be pixelated and there will be audio problems. Symbol Quality doesn't tell you much of anything to help in troubleshooting reception problems. I don't know why any TV bothers to show it. Signal Strength and Signal Quality are what you really need to know.


You're right, I should not even mention symbol quality because it's either 100% or nothing.

Adding the filter didn't affect signal quality and it only affected signal strength of channel 36 by 2%. No changes below RF36.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## rabbit73

Calaveras said:


> There's no point in telling people to run a test based on irrelevant, non-repeatable anecdotal information. You have no idea why connecting a random length ground wire to a piece of coax happened to produce the results you wanted sometime in the past. I have no problem telling someone to run a test if the proposed test reliably solves a problem. If the test doesn't solve the problem then we know the cause of the problem is something else and we can make another suggestion. The ground wire test is not a reliable solution to any problem except some lightning protection. Running a test for a problem for which it is not a solution doesn't tell us anything and is a waste of time.


I don't agree with you.

*hdtvluvr* thinks he might have an LTE interference problem and wants to try the filter with his attic antenna. I gave him my advice about tests he can make*. *He can follow my advice or not, it's his antenna system.

You could have given useful advice to hdtvluvr about his problem, but instead you chose to criticize my advice about the problem which I had every right to give.

I think you are out of line.



> See Post #18214 .


Oh, there it is. That's good INFO; thanks.


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> I don't agree with you.
> 
> *hdtvluvr* thinks he might have an LTE interference problem and wants to try the filter with his attic antenna. I gave him my advice about tests he can make*. *He can follow my advice or not, it's his antenna system.
> 
> You could have given useful advice to hdtvluvr about his problem, but instead you chose to criticize my advice about the problem which I had every right to give.
> 
> I think you are out of line.



No one is ever out of line to criticize bad advice when they see it.

I don't respond to every post where someone has a problem. I don't always have time to form a proper response. But going back over his post I see we have another person who believes he needs to ground the coax for the filter to work. This is absolutely false. I have a 700 MHz LTE filter on the input to my spectrum analyzer because some local LTE transmitters overload the analyzer if I point the antenna at them. I have no special ground for the filter and it does a great job knocking down the signals. If these filters required an RF ground to work no one would ever get one to work because an RF ground at UHF in this situation is essentially impossible. In retrospect, my advice to hdtvluvr would have been to install the filter and forget the ground. It's unnecessary.

I don't believe anyone has the right to give out wrong information and be immune from challenge. Your response is not to tell me that I'm wrong and explain why but to say you shouldn't be criticized. What's up with that?

In view of the facts I've presented to you I think it's time to stop telling people that adding a ground wire is going to drain away (my words) noise from the coax and make filters work better. RF theory does not support that idea.


----------



## rabbit73

I didn't say it would help, I said it might help.

Why shouldn't he try it if he wants to? Do you think he is incapable of deciding for himself?

No matter what the result is, he will learn something. I learn from every one of my experiments no matter how they turn out.

Do you have a bias against experimentation? 

Do you think you have a right to tell someone not to do an experiment with his own equipment just because you think it's wrong or a waste of time?

The last time you accused me of giving bad advice was when I suggested using an AM radio to find noise interference. I was just repeating the same advice given by the FCC. Were they also giving bad advice?
https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/interference-radio-tv-and-telephone-signals


> *Electrical interference and your TV*
> 
> In the presence of electrical interference, you may experience frozen images or intermittent audio while viewing over-the-air television programs. This interference may be caused by equipment in your home, such as hair dryers, sewing machines, electric drills, doorbell transformers, light switches, smartphone chargers, power supplies, computing devices, washing machines, clothes dryers, fluorescent lights, LED lights, or garage door openers.
> 
> Electrical interference may also be caused by power lines. Interference caused by your power company's electrical equipment is normally continuous, and your power company should be notified.
> 
> A simple method of determining the location of electrical interference is *by using a portable battery-powered AM radio* tuned to a quiet frequency at the lower end of the dial. You should hear static or a buzzing sound as you get close to the source of the interference. The closer you get, the more intense the static will be.


----------



## hdtvluvr

rabbit73 said:


> I sent an eMail to CM asking about the 3201 LTE filter:
> Reply from CM:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It will attenuate channel 36 a little; the previous version did the same thing to 51.


Well, the image of the filter in your post shows 5 - 599. The specs CM sent you says Model CM-3201 *(609)* and then the spec sheet has Pass Band 5 - 609. So your image I guess is the CM-3201 *(599)*. The filter I received is also the 5 - 599 version. I can't enlarge the image actually on the spec sheet to see if it says 5 - 599 or 5 - 609 but I suspect the latter. 

So a cutoff at 599, channel 35 has a band width of 596-602 and 36 is 602-608 so I assume ours (5-599 version) will cut off 36 altogether and have issues with 35. Is that correct?


----------



## hdtvluvr

And to put all of my questions in perspective, I have 2 antennas. One is the 4228 8 bay antenna which is in the attic over the garage connected to an AM21 to combine OTA with DirecTV. The other is the Winegard HD7084P is located in an attic over the main house and is wired to 1 specific TV in an upper bedroom. I finally received some help in running wire from the Winegard HD7084P so that it could be connected to the AM21. This part of the attic also has water pipes that could be used for grounding. The Winegard HD7084P designed better for channel 5 and perhaps will solve the issues with 3. 

I purchased the 5-599 filter for the 4228 8 bay antenna as I was in doubt that I could run cable from the Winegard HD7084P for the AM21 but will be adding it to the Winegard HD7084P at least as a test. Maybe just leave it permanently as cell towers seem to continualy go up. It'll be a week or so before I can get back to this project.


----------



## Channel99

rabbit73 said:


> Is there some law that says he isn't allowed to test it?





Calaveras said:


> ... Grounding the coax doesn't keep undesired signals on the coax shield from getting into the tuner because this type of grounding is not an RF ground. The fact that you admit that changing the length of the ground wire or changing where along the length of the coax the tap for the ground is located changes the results, says that it is not an RF ground.


In a few cases, its possible that adding a ground could actually improve the signal for an unexpected reason - if the added ground was picking up the interfering signal and happened to add it out-of-phase to the signal on the coax. A counterpoise, more or less.


----------



## MBrown2020

When I tried a seperate VHF-Hi (Stellar Labs 30-2475) & UHF (Stellar Labs 30-2365) antenna, I found that the best spot for each in my attic was basically the same spot. I got fox 11 great, but NBC UHF suffered. So I said screw it and went with the regarded Winegard HD7694P. All 4 of my main channels looked good. This is all with no preamp, just 20' of coax going into my HDHR Scribe Quatro tuner. Is the signal strength of Fox 11 at 73% & quality at 83% good enough to not warrant VHF only amplification? No dropouts other than every 30 seconds because of the transmitter issue with Fox 11 that should be mitigated by its repack to channel 12 with new transmitter May 1st.


----------



## hdtvluvr

Here is the Tech Specs from Channel Master website. It says Pass 5 - 599. Not the 5 - 609 in the specs Rabbit received from CM. How many different versions of the same thing can there be??


----------



## LilTekey

Ken H said:


> 
> Please post your experiences with antennas, preamps, all related equipment, and installation experiences. Indoor & outdoor. To include mounting, cabling, connectors, rotors, etc.
> 
> 
> - Be specific; brands, models, sources, prices, etc.
> 
> 
> - What works, what doesn't, and why?
> 
> 
> - Tricks of the trade, and unique solutions.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for your participation. AVS is only as good as it's members, and our members are the best.
> 
> 
> Moderators Note as of 2/15/2012: The "Antennas, rotators, boosters/preamps... for wide-band VHF/UHF" has been merged into this topic, which now covers not just antennas but preamps, rotors, antenna cable, mounting systems, termination, transformers, baluns, distribution amps, and all other OTA reception related equipment.
> 
> 
> As always, set-top-boxes are covered in the Official AVS STB Topic, found 'stuck' at the top of the HDTV Technical Forum.


Help! I think I am going to need a lot of help in the next few months. It has been a while since my setup I don't use a converter box I have a Magnavox DVR with an attached modulator to the NTSC Vizio TV. I am using a clear antenna (AS Seen On TV) from old Kmart when they were open and I was getting all the local channels then yesterday I lost all the local channels and keep scanning and I am getting 2 channels. I am not getting NBC, CBS, or ABC local channels which are 3, 8, 13. So I am watching channels 33 and 39 DTV and this transmission alert comes on the bottom of the screen. So before that alert I don't know if I am just not getting channels right now because sometimes that happens and if this alert is just adding to the frustration of my current problem but the alert is saying in addition to my current reception problem that on:...………. "Attention Over the Air Viewers: The CW Las Vegas Channel intends to relocate its ATSC 1.0 signal to a different frequency and begin broadcasting the NextGen ATSC 3.0 transmission standard on April 7, 2020 at 10am. If you currently use an antenna to receive the CW Las Vegas KVCW for free you may need to obtain new equipment or receive the ATSC 3.0 or you will need to rescan your TV to receive the relocated ATSC 1.0 signal, cable and satellite viewers will not be affected. So what does this mean exactly how do I know if I need new equipment. And what would the new equipment be? My Magnavox DVR is from 2014 and My Vizio is only 3 year old. Any help would be apprectiated.


----------



## MBrown2020

Calaveras said:


> Considering that the loss of 20' of RG6 on high VHF is only about 0.5 dB, it's unlikely a preamp will get you anything. Environmental noise is also a bit higher on high VHF than UHF so even the lower noise figure of the preamp over the TV will be of little benefit. If you think you need a little more gain to overcome splitter losses, I'd use a distribution amp. The CM34xx series has low gain and is unlikely to overload in most cases. They have a lower noise figure than the TV tuners so you'll actually get some SNR improvement over no preamp.



Seeing as I'm connecting the 20' of coax directly to my HDHR tuner and the signal levels are as follows (See pic), do you suggest I leave as is and not use any form of amplification to increase Fox 11 VHF-Hi?


----------



## rabbit73

hdtvluvr said:


> Well, the image of the filter in your post shows 5 - 599. The specs CM sent you says Model CM-3201 *(609)* and then the spec sheet has Pass Band 5 - 609. So your image I guess is the CM-3201 *(599)*. The filter I received is also the 5 - 599 version. I can't enlarge the image actually on the spec sheet to see if it says 5 - 599 or 5 - 609 but I suspect the latter.
> 
> So a cutoff at 599, channel 35 has a band width of 596-602 and 36 is 602-608 so I assume ours (5-599 version) will cut off 36 altogether and have issues with 35. Is that correct?


Not exactly; Channel Master, as usual, doesn't make it easy for us.

The description on their website for the new filter does say:
Pass 5 - 599 MHz

and the markings on the new filter say the same thing:










but the spec sheet for the new filter that CM sent to me is a little more precise:










Channel 35 is 596 to 602 MHz
Channel 36 is 602 to 608 MHz 

They are calling the new filter CM-3201 [609] because they are calling the passband 5~609 MHz. The symbol between the 5 and the 609 is called a tilde. It has various meanings. In this case you should read it as the passband is approximately 5 to 609 MHz. In other words, they are fudging because the cutoff above 36 is not steep and sudden. A filter with a sharper cutrtoff above 36 would be very expensive.

It doesn't cut off 36 completely, it just makes it a little weaker by about 3.3 dB according to my measurements:


----------



## rabbit73

hdtvluvr said:


> Here is the Tech Specs from Channel Master website. It says Pass 5 - 599. Not the 5 - 609 in the specs Rabbit received from CM. How many different versions of the same thing can there be??


Those specs are from the CM website.

The spec sheet that was sent to me by email is from a CM customer Service tech that gives the actual engineering specs in a 1.00 MB pdf file; too big for an attachment here.



hdtvluvr said:


> I can't enlarge the image actually on the spec sheet to see if it says 5 - 599 or 5 - 609 but I suspect the latter.


Neither. They used the image of the old filter on the spec sheet for the new filter!

This is an enlargement of the filter image on the engineering spec sheet for the new filter.


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> I didn't say it would help, I said it might help.
> 
> Why shouldn't he try it if he wants to? Do you think he is incapable of deciding for himself?
> 
> No matter what the result is, he will learn something. I learn from every one of my experiments no matter how they turn out.
> 
> Do you have a bias against experimentation?
> 
> Do you think you have a right to tell someone not to do an experiment with his own equipment just because you think it's wrong or a waste of time?
> 
> The last time you accused me of giving bad advice was when I suggested using an AM radio to find noise interference. I was just repeating the same advice given by the FCC. Were they also giving bad advice?



Asking me if I am biased against experimentation is a red herring. I never said anything like that. Experiments should be designed to test a specific theory. What's the point of running an experiment to test a theory that's already been falsified? People post here to get the benefit of our experience. I don't see the point of asking them to run useless experiments.

I don't know why you're clinging to this idea that some random piece of wire from a coax shield to an earth ground is an RF ground. (Yes, I know you haven't used those words but in order for it to work like you claim, it would have to be an RF ground.) Now I've provided documentation to support what I've been saying. It's time to stop telling people to try this. If a case comes up where the evidence strongly suggests RF on the coax shield, then we can discuss an RF choke using ferrite beads. That's the type of experiment that would be worth running.

The FCC is giving bad advice. You cannot use an AM broadcast band radio to find noise at VHF and higher in most cases. I went over the reasons in the post you're referring to. I suspect that the FCC is suggesting this because few people have the sort of equipment required to do it right. What they're suggesting will lead to a lot of false positives. I've been finding noise since the 1970's. I know what I'm talking about. I've worked extensively with the power companies. Even the power companies don't use AM radios. As I pointed out in that previous post, the ARRL page on locating RFI has it right. They show a guy with a 300MHz receiver and a handheld beam. That's the way to find it. 

AM radios are good for finding noise on the AM band and that's about it.


----------



## Calaveras

MBrown2020 said:


> Seeing as I'm connecting the 20' of coax directly to my HDHR tuner and the signal levels are as follows (See pic), do you suggest I leave as is and not use any form of amplification to increase Fox 11 VHF-Hi?



Are you having reception problems with FOX 11 or do you just want to see higher numbers like the other stations? If it's the latter then I wouldn't mess with it.

I pulled this quote from an old post about HDHR signal strength:

"Signal strength - 100% is 0dBmV. Each 3dB drop in signal strength is a 5% drop in the reported percentage. 95% signal strength is -3dBmV. 50% signal strength is -30dBmV. Subtract 48.75 from the dBmV number to get dBm for OTA. Signal quality is more complicated as the scale is dependent on the modulation type."

Going by that using your 73% for signal strength on FOX 11, I get -17 dBmV or -68.75 dBm. A decent TV tuner should be able to decode a signal down to about -85 dBm with an SNR of 15 dB. So -68.75 dBm - (-85 dBm) = +19.25 dB. That should be your noise margin. 

The minimum level of 15 dB + 19.25 dB = 34.25 dB SNR (Signal Quality). That high of an SNR should be 100% for just about any tuner. I don't know what 85% equates to but it probably means you have a little mulitpath lowering the SNR. Increasing the signal is not likely to raise that.


----------



## Starlifter-f/e

VideoBruce! Attention VideoBruce!
Being a "Newbie" I cannot PM you, so I hope you occasionally check this thread I am reaching out to you about my EAGLE ASPEN ROTR100 antenna rotor today
Good day sir!
You appear to be the best source of information on these rotators. I am unable to figure out why mine will not work, and am asking for your kind assistance.
Two weeks ago, it worked perfectly. I took the antenna of the rotator, and the rotator off the mast, in order to raise the antenna eight feet higher. After putting it back together, the control box behaves exactly as it has since I installed it a decade ago, both from its own control panel, and also via its remote. However, the rotor motor does not respond! It does not make any noise or movement, I show about 20VDC at the coax where it threads onto the bottom of the rotator. The voltage never changes, regardless of what I do at the control box. Putting the box in "standby", pushing any buttons in any order, if the control box is plugged into the mains, the 20 VDC is always there. Nothing is obstructing the rotation of the antenna, the coax and the connector on the bottom of the motor both appear to be in excellent condition, and that connection is sufficiently tight. I am using a new ten foot length of RG6 Q/S from the grounding block to the rotor motor, but other than that, the coax from the control box to the grounding block (about 62 feet) remains undisturbed. I found the manual for this system quickly and easily on the internet, but the manual does not include any troubleshooting information at all. Any guidance would be most welcome...Thank you!
Mods, if this is posted in the wrong place, I do apologize for that!


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> If you reject new ideas that don't agree with your old ideas, how can you learn anything new?



What are you talking about? Using an AM band radio to find noise? Hardly a new idea. Anyone who's spent time in the field tracking down power line noise knows an AM radio doesn't cut it. Even back in the 70's the power companies had 300 MHz receivers and directional antennas to locate noise. Still works today.


----------



## shoman94

Calaveras said:


> What are you talking about? Using an AM band radio to find noise? Hardly a new idea. Anyone who's spent time in the field tracking down power line noise knows an AM radio doesn't cut it. Even back in the 70's the power companies had 300 MHz receivers and directional antennas to locate noise. Still works today.


I think he was speaking in general.

Sometimes anecdotal is as good as scientific. Sometimes experience trumps everything.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## hdtvluvr

rabbit73 said:


> Those specs are from the CM website.
> ........
> Neither. They used the image of the old filter on the spec sheet for the new filter!
> 
> This is an enlargement of the filter image on the engineering spec sheet for the new filter.


Saved a few pennies and used an old image. That makes it even more confusing.

Are you saying that instead of a hard cutoff, they probably attempted a cutoff around 599 and the circuity allows up to 609 to pass due to the designed in inefficiency/specs of the circuitry/components? More efficiency would be more expensive.


----------



## rabbit73

hdtvluvr said:


> Are you saying that instead of a hard cutoff, they probably attempted a cutoff around 599 and the circuity allows up to 609 to pass due to the designed in inefficiency/specs of the circuitry/components? More efficiency would be more expensive.


Yes, you have it exactly right.

The ideal lowpass filter is called a "Brick Wall Filter." Do a Google search for:
brick wall filter

It is possible to design a lowpass filter with a sharper cutoff above channel 36, but it would have many more components. It would probably sell for over $200 to make a profit based on what Tin Lee Electronics, and other custom filter builders, charge for filters.
http://www.eaglecomtronics.com/pdfs/Web Site - EBWLP - Brick Wall Lowpass.pdf

Even an exotic custom filter like that will have an increased insertion loss at the high end just before dropoff.

This is the best LTE filter for performance that I could find. It is designed as a bandpass filter:
http://www.microwavefilter.com/VHF-UHF_Wideband_Filters.html

Microwave Filter Company, Inc.
MODEL 20062 Bandpass Filter
Suppresses 600 MHz / 700 MHz wireless bands
Allows for clean reception of DTV-UHF channels 14-36
Also suppresses FM, VHF, GSM 850 & GSM 900 bands
Specifications:

Passband: 470 - 608 MHz
Passband Insertion Loss: 2 dB MAX
Passband VSWR: 1.5:1 TYP
Rejection: 20 dB MIN from 400 - 460 MHz
20 dB MIN from 618 - 900 MHz
Impedance: 75 Ohms
Connectors: F - female
Operating Temperature Range: 0 deg. F to 130 deg. F
Indoor Use Only

This is a drawing of the filter. It appears to be an interdigital bandpass filter. The screws on top are for tuning adjustment. Looks like they were working on the design in March 2018:



















S11 and S21 are S-parameters (or scattering parameters) that are used to describe how energy can propagate through an electric network.
S11 represents how much power is reflected, and hence is known as the reflection coefficient (sometimes written as gamma: or return loss). Reflection coefficient can be converted to SWR.
S21 is the forward transmission (from port 1 to port 2) which is probably the parameter you are most concerned about.

Note that it is designed for indoor use which might make it difficult to insert between an antenna and a preamp.

A lowpass filter like the CM-3201 is less expensive to make; it's a bargain by comparison.


----------



## Calaveras

Channel99 said:


> In a few cases, its possible that adding a ground could actually improve the signal for an unexpected reason - if the added ground was picking up the interfering signal and happened to add it out-of-phase to the signal on the coax. A counterpoise, more or less.



The coax shield isolates the center conductor from external signals. Any signal picked up by a grounding wire will not affect what's on the center conductor unless the signal is huge. There is a limit to how much isolation coax has. Your example is interesting because you're saying the "ground" wire is actually an antenna and not a ground. This is what I've been saying all along.


----------



## Calaveras

hdtvluvr said:


> Are you saying that instead of a hard cutoff, they probably attempted a cutoff around 599 and the circuity allows up to 609 to pass due to the designed in inefficiency/specs of the circuitry/components? More efficiency would be more expensive.



Filter bandwidth is normally spec'd at the 3 dB point(s). In the table some posts above the 3 dB point is in channel 36. There's no such thing as a filter with a hard cutoff as you're probably thinking. There's always some rolloff. A filter with a sharper skirt can be designed but often the tradeoff is higher insertion loss across the band. That's not a desirable characteristic in a filter that's placed at the antenna terminals. This filter has a minimum insertion loss of around 0.5 dB or less. You won't get much better than that. If you need a filter to completely eliminate 600 MHz LTE, you better hope you don't have any stations in the 30's with very low noise margins. As long as you can give up 3dB you're good.


----------



## bobchase

No. The 599 is the start of the filter not where the cliff occurs. 35/36 will be affected by a couple of dB of attenuation.


----------



## shoman94

bobchase said:


> No. The 599 is the start of the filter not where the cliff occurs. 35/36 will be affected by a couple of dB of attenuation.


Right, in my case I only saw a 2% change in signal strength no RF-36.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## rabbit73

mag1993daewoo said:


> Help! I think I am going to need a lot of help in the next few months. It has been a while since my setup I don't use a converter box I have a Magnavox DVR with an attached modulator to the NTSC Vizio TV. I am using a clear antenna (AS Seen On TV) from old Kmart when they were open and I was getting all the local channels then yesterday I lost all the local channels and keep scanning and I am getting 2 channels. I am not getting NBC, CBS, or ABC local channels which are 3, 8, 13. So I am watching channels 33 and 39 DTV and this transmission alert comes on the bottom of the screen. So before that alert I don't know if I am just not getting channels right now because sometimes that happens and if this alert is just adding to the frustration of my current problem but the alert is saying in addition to my current reception problem that on:...………. "Attention Over the Air Viewers: The CW Las Vegas Channel intends to relocate its ATSC 1.0 signal to a different frequency and begin broadcasting the NextGen ATSC 3.0 transmission standard on April 7, 2020 at 10am. If you currently use an antenna to receive the CW Las Vegas KVCW for free you may need to obtain new equipment or receive the ATSC 3.0 or you will need to rescan your TV to receive the relocated ATSC 1.0 signal, cable and satellite viewers will not be affected. So what does this mean exactly how do I know if I need new equipment. And what would the new equipment be? My Magnavox DVR is from 2014 and My Vizio is only 3 year old. Any help would be apprectiated.


Hello, mag1993daewoo

If your Vizio TV is only 3 years old, it should have a tuner for the old analog NTSC channels and for the current ATSC 1.0 digital channels. What is the model number of the Vizio TV?

The Magnavox DVR might also have a tuner for NTSC analog and ATSC 1.0 digital. What is the model number of the DVR?

You can continue to use the modulator to convert the output of the DVR to analog for the Vizio if necessary, but the quality will only be SD, not HD.

The message you got was telling you to rescan your tuners to be able to receive the channels that have moved to new frequencies because of UHF Repack by the FCC. You need to go into the menu and scan for antenna channels, not cable channels.

I don't think you will need the new equipment mentioned by them; it's for the new ATSC 3.0 broadcasts which are not yet fully developed and not widely transmitted now. The new regulations say they must continue to broadcast ATSC 1.0 digital transmissions for 5 years, even when they are transmitting ATSC 3.0, for people just like you. I love your About Me that tells it like it is:



> About mag1993daewoo
> Biography
> I am poor I use over the air TV with a DVR and a Vizio TV with a modulator and a clear TV antenna now it is being changed from NTSC to Atsc 3.0 and I don't know what I need to do.
> Location
> Las Vegas, NV
> Occupation
> Staying Alive in a tech world for the rich and famous


What is your zip code?


----------



## LilTekey

My vizio Tv is model D28h-C1 and my Maggie is MDR535 H/F7
And I am still only getting channels 33 and 39, I am missing like 10 channels right now I am thinking they turned the antennas towers or something because this happens but not for this long. Maybe because of the pandemic.

I have rescanned both the TV by itself and the DVR with the DVR on and again with the DVR off and both are only getting the two channels so the tuners are working whether I am in TV or DVR mode.


----------



## LilTekey

rabbit73 said:


> Hello, mag1993daewoo
> 
> If your Vizio TV is only 3 years old, it should have a tuner for the old analog NTSC channels and for the current ATSC 1.0 digital channels. What is the model number of the Vizio TV?
> 
> The Magnavox DVR might also have a tuner for NTSC analog and ATSC 1.0 digital. What is the model number of the DVR?
> 
> You can continue to use the modulator to convert the output of the DVR to analog for the Vizio if necessary, but the quality will only be SD, not HD.
> 
> The message you got was telling you to rescan your tuners to be able to receive the channels that have moved to new frequencies because of UHF Repack by the FCC. You need to go into the menu and scan for antenna channels, not cable channels.
> 
> I don't think you will need the new equipment mentioned by them; it's for the new ATSC 3.0 broadcasts which are not yet fully developed and not widely transmitted now. The new regulations say they must continue to broadcast ATSC 1.0 digital transmissions for 5 years, even when they are transmitting ATSC 3.0, for people just like you. I love your About Me that tells it like it is:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know your address or even your zip code, but here is a generic signal report for Las Vegas from rabbitears.info:
> https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&sort=field&unit=uVm&study_id=72067
> 
> 
> What is your zip code?
> 
> 
> It looks like your transmitters are low power translators that don't have to follow the repack schedule for more powerful transmitters.


Wow none of the channels are on this list channel 3.1 or channel 8.1 or 13.1 even on the map they are not showing. My zip code is 89030. try that I don't know where to put my zip on this site link


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## rabbit73

Thank you for the zipcode.

There seems to be a problem with the report; I'll try again.

This looks better:
report
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=72079

Repack Plan
https://www.rabbitears.info/repackc...state=&mktid=51&owner=&sort=&ph=&lss=&status=

TV manual:
https://cdn.vizio.com/documents/d28hc1/um-d28hc1.pdf

DVR manual
https://www.p4c.philips.com/files/m/mdr535h_f7/mdr535h_f7_dfu_aen.pdf

The warning was about the CW channel 33.1, but you get that.


> I am using a clear antenna (AS Seen On TV)


They make more than one model. 

This one?

https://buycleartv.com/


https://www.amazon.com/Clear-TV-HD-Digital-Antenna/dp/B075ZV7XDP


https://www.walmart.com/ip/Clear-TV...nna-Stand-Not-Included-As-Seen-on-TV/49930742


Where is the antenna located?


----------



## jkeldo

mag1993daewoo said:


> My vizio Tv is model D28h-C1 and my Maggie is MDR535 H/F7
> And I am still only getting channels 33 and 39, I am missing like 10 channels right now I am thinking they turned the antennas towers or something because this happens but not for this long. Maybe because of the pandemic.
> 
> I have rescanned both the TV by itself and the DVR with the DVR on and again with the DVR off and both are only getting the two channels so the tuners are working whether I am in TV or DVR mode.


I checked out the Vizio model you mentioned and it appears to have a tuner built-in so I'm not sure why you are using a modulator. Your Maganavox DVR also has a tuner so you could use both tuners as long as the antenna is connected to both. I assume you have the antenna connected first to the Magnavox and then the antenna out goes into the Vizio. Then you can use the tuner in the Vizio to watch tv which is probably better than the one in the Magnavox. I say that from my experience with both brands as the Magnavox DVR which I have is the newer one which can record in HD but has the same tuner issues which other models had. They tend to overload with amplifiers and are not that sensitive in general.

How are you connecting the Magnavox for watching programs? Since it has an HDMI output, it can go into one of the HDMI inputs on the Vizio and from there when you are using the tuner in the Magnavox, the quality while not HD is not bad. But your Vizio tv is a 720p set which is HD although not 1080i but there is not that much of a difference with a set that size. As for not getting the channels, you may need a better antenna. Rabbit73 can give you some ideas but since the rabbitears report shows a lot of stations around 15-20 miles away, I would think that something like a simple double bowtie antenna would do unless you're in a spot with a lot of trees or high buildings around you.


----------



## LilTekey

*Name Change*

I just changed my username from Mag1993daewoo to LilTekey just so you know from previous posts.

This is my dog watching TV with his arm on the armchair with the remote next to him. A Pullitzer Prize moment!


----------



## LilTekey

rabbit73 said:


> Thank you for the zipcode.
> 
> There seems to be a problem with the report; I'll try again.
> 
> This looks better:
> report
> https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=72079
> 
> Repack Plan
> https://www.rabbitears.info/repackc...state=&mktid=51&owner=&sort=&ph=&lss=&status=
> 
> TV manual:
> https://cdn.vizio.com/documents/d28hc1/um-d28hc1.pdf
> 
> DVR manual
> https://www.p4c.philips.com/files/m/mdr535h_f7/mdr535h_f7_dfu_aen.pdf
> 
> The warning was about the CW channel 33.1, but you get that.
> They make more than one model.
> 
> This one?
> 
> https://buycleartv.com/
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Clear-TV-HD-Digital-Antenna/dp/B075ZV7XDP
> 
> 
> https://www.walmart.com/ip/Clear-TV...nna-Stand-Not-Included-As-Seen-on-TV/49930742
> 
> 
> Where is the antenna located?


Wow thanks for all the info what does Repack mean I have never heard that term the antenna is the exact one from Walmart and don't even get me started on Antenna I have one that cost $160 and is not worth a darn, but this one here from Walmart that I got at Kmart is the only one that works in my house unless I put up an outdoor Antenna and do a major install. Other wise this little antenna works in my Kitchen window (the only place stuck on my window in there). But on those maps the stations in the North are missing 3 of them are not showing up on the map, that has to be why I am out of reception. Those are out that little window. All those other station in the South of me are the other end of my home from my TV setup. A major install is required. So it looks like I have to wait. I am not steppin' over cable and having a big mess to watch TV and putting a big old antenna in front of my front windows inside my house to walk by and knock into the window and break them. That is why I just use this little antenna it is a big hassel.


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## rabbit73

LilTekey said:


> I just changed my username from Mag1993daewoo to LilTekey just so you know from previous posts.
> 
> This is my dog watching TV with his arm on the armchair with the remote next to him. A Pullitzer Prize moment!


 Thank you for letting me know about the new username so that I will not be even more confused than usual.

Cute dog.


----------



## rabbit73

LilTekey said:


> Wow thanks for all the info what does Repack mean I have never heard that term


Good question

The cellular phone companies wanted more frequencies.

They went to Congress and convinced them to take some UHF frequencies away from the TV broadcasters.

The FCC held a reverse auction which would pay a broadcaster to surrender their license or move to a VHF-High or VHF-Low channel.

As a result, the broadcasters lost channels 38 to 51; 37 is reserved for other services.

The remaining transmitters had to be packed in 14 to 36, hence the name Repack.

The TV broadcasters were not happy about this forced arrangement. Not only was their ad revenue threatened, but their ability to keep the public informed during a natural disaster was threatened. They have generators to stay on the air even when the cell phones don't work during a power failure. 

*Post-Auction Transition*

https://www.fcc.gov/about-fcc/fcc-initiatives/incentive-auctions/post-auction-transition

*Transition Schedule*

https://www.fcc.gov/about-fcc/fcc-initiatives/incentive-auctions/transition-schedule


It is the real channel number (also called physical channel or RF channel) that determines what antenna is needed.

VHF-Low, real channels 2-6
VHF-High, real channels 7-13
UHF, real channels 14-51; soon to be 14 to 36

The virtual channel number (like 5.1 or 5-1) is a holdover from the analog TV days to maintain the identity of the station, and is what the TV displays. By convention, the virtual channel number is given in the decimal form to keep it from being confused with the real channel number.


----------



## shoman94

rabbit73 said:


> The TV broadcasters were not happy about this forced arrangement. Not only was their ad revenue threatened, but their ability to keep the public informed during a natural disaster was threatened. They have generators to stay on the air even when the cell phones don't work during a power failure.


They needed a repack anyways. Too many open spots. Cellular is just as if not more important than OTA TV now a days in my opinion. I also think it forced the broadcast industry to update the equipment being used on the towers which is a good thing.

Cell towers have back up batteries, generators and are greatly utilized during natural disasters in 2 way communication not just broadcast which Cellular can do also.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## LilTekey

rabbit73 said:


> Thank you for letting me know about the new username so that I will not be even more confused than usual.
> 
> Cute dog.


yeah he's really smart and intuitive right after I wrote that I got up to look at the specs on my TV menu screen and when I went back to my seat he had came over of know where and he was sitting there in my seat so he picked up on me writing the username name change and the story about him. What can I say he's loved and knows it!

And the term you used "more confused than normal" I also know that term well, lol

I had this guy at the grocery store look at me holding a pair of gloves he pulled from the rack and he say's to me "why would they sell two left hand gloves" and I look at the pair of gloves he's holding and I am wondering what is this guy talking about? and he says "what are they just selling left hand pairs of gloves and right hand pairs of gloves now so you have to buy two sets? And I look at the gloves he holding and I am thinking again what is he talking about that looks like a left and a right hand set of gloves to me and I say to him No it is a pair both a left and a right hand glove, pair. And he say's to me "Oh boy do I feel dumb now I was thinking the (L) on the tag meant Left". And I look and the tag it has a red square box on it with a (L) in the middle of the box and I am like no that means Large. He says to me don't you tell anyone, I just told him everything gonna be alright and that everything is okay, he was an elderly man. But yeah confusion at the moment for both of us and I can also relate to his confusion in that way on many different other things now a days.


----------



## rabbit73

LilTekey said:


> the antenna is the exact one from Walmart and don't even get me started on Antenna I have one that cost $160 and is not worth a darn, but this one here from Walmart that I got at Kmart is the only one that works in my house unless I put up an outdoor Antenna and do a major install. Other wise this little antenna works in my Kitchen window (the only place stuck on my window in there).


 I'm not sure which ClearTV antenna you have. Is it like No. 1 or No. 2?





















> But on those maps the stations in the North are missing 3 of them are not showing up on the map, that has to be why I am out of reception. Those are out that little window. All those other station in the South of me are the other end of my home from my TV setup.





















I don't see any channels from the north. You will have to put the right antenna in a south window or the attic to get the channels you want.


----------



## bobchase

shoman94 said:


> They needed a repack anyways. Too many open spots. Cellular is just as if not more important than OTA TV now a days in my opinion. I also think it forced the broadcast industry to update the equipment being used on the towers which is a good thing.
> 
> Cell towers have back up batteries, generators and are greatly utilized during natural disasters in 2 way communication not just broadcast which Cellular can do also.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


Sometimes that's correct. On the other hand before Allison even made landfall sprint shut down all their cell towers accross the city to save the equipment. During Katrina cellphone coverage was non-existent, some shut down before landfall, some were wiped out. When the temporary cell towers went up, I often couldn't make a call even though I was just below the top of the priority list. During the Yarnell wildfires cellphone coverage was poor to non-existent. The larger the emergency, the less likely cell phone will work for you.


----------



## shoman94

bobchase said:


> Sometimes that's correct. On the other hand before Allison even made landfall sprint shut down all their cell towers accross the city to save the equipment. During Katrina cellphone coverage was non-existent, some shut down before landfall, some were wiped out. When the temporary cell towers went up, I often couldn't make a call even though I was just below the top of the priority list. During the Yarnell wildfires cellphone coverage was poor to non-existent. The larger the emergency, the less likely cell phone will work for you.


The TV towers are dealing with the same effects that cell towers are. Sometimes they co-exist on the same tower. You can have a tower go down and still have coverage to many areas..... Whereas one down TV tower can affect 7+ thousand square miles. 
The carriers deploy mobile towers as well. There is many situations that could play out. Either way, I would rather have a cell tower online than a TV tower.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## jkeldo

shoman94 said:


> The TV towers are dealing with the same effects that cell towers are. Sometimes they co-exist on the same tower. You can have a tower go down and still have coverage to many areas..... Whereas one down TV tower can affect 7+ thousand square miles.
> The carriers deploy mobile towers as well. There is many situations that could play out. Either way, I would rather have a cell tower online than a TV tower.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


If there was an emergency where critical information needed to be distributed, radio and OTA tv would be two methods which would be utilized for that purpose and since those are free as well, there is no discrimination as to access. Cell phones are important for emergencies but not everyone has a smartphone so they may not get important updates. Also, 911 is not accurate with cell phones so landlines whether POTS or VOIP are still more accurate in an emergency if you are at home. So we need them all but I would not say that cell towers are more important than tv ones.


----------



## shoman94

jkeldo said:


> If there was an emergency where critical information needed to be distributed, radio and OTA tv would be two methods which would be utilized for that purpose and since those are free as well, there is no discrimination as to access. Cell phones are important for emergencies but not everyone has a smartphone so they may not get important updates. Also, 911 is not accurate with cell phones so landlines whether POTS or VOIP are still more accurate in an emergency if you are at home. So we need them all but I would not say that cell towers are more important than tv ones.


And you can think that. My opinion they are.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## jkeldo

rabbit73 said:


> I'm not sure which ClearTV antenna you have. Is it like No. 1 or No. 2?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see any channels from the north. You will have to put the right antenna in a south window or the attic to get the channels you want.


Those ClearTV antennas are known to be poor performers. Maybe the OP got lucky using it in the window. I would like to know the antenna that cost $160.00 that didn't work.


----------



## jkeldo

shoman94 said:


> And you can think that. My opinion they are.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


Fair enough. But there are a lot of metro areas that are having issues due to the repack. Maybe where you live that is not the case. So far in the Cleveland area, reception has not been affected negatively and in many cases improved due to increased coverage.


----------



## shoman94

jkeldo said:


> Fair enough. But there are a lot of metro areas that are having issues due to the repack. Maybe where you live that is not the case. So far in the Cleveland area, reception has not been affected negatively and in many cases improved due to increased coverage.


The repack has been good for me. Multiple antennas have moved locations so they are closer is distance and narrower in spread for me.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## jkeldo

shoman94 said:


> The repack has been good for me. Multiple antennas have moved locations so they are closer is distance and narrower in spread for me.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


Most towers here have not changed but some frequencies did. One station out of Sandusky which is somewhat west of Cleveland is ending up on RF3 from RF 42 not that I could get it before anyway.


----------



## shoman94

jkeldo said:


> Most towers here have not changed but some frequencies did. One station out of Sandusky which is somewhat west of Cleveland is ending up on RF3 from RF 42 not that I could get it before anyway.


Yea we had many change in RF channels as well, all in UHF though. Again, the new co-locations helped as well.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## DeweyNC

Oh thanks


----------



## LilTekey

jkeldo said:


> Those ClearTV antennas are known to be poor performers. Maybe the OP got lucky using it in the window. I would like to know the antenna that cost $160.00 that didn't work.


 it is the second one the square flat one and nothing has worked in my location except that one trust me I have been through it. As far as I am concerned that antenna is God! Lol Sorry but it is true I have tried several I am under cable wires and cable connector boxes and electrical boxes right out my front door maybe 30 feet from me. so there has to be interference. If I use one of those little signal finders with an antenna on it goes off the chart when I point it over there. So the field of electricity is really high. And when I connected the $160 antenna by that little window it could not get reception there either, but it could at the south end of the house but that is a major install and it has to be outside because that antenna is a big block and to big to be in the house with the probes etc. It will get knocked over and broken or will break a window. but that Clear Tv antenna fits stuck to the glass in my little kitchen window and with the pandemic all of a sudden all the major stations went dark or of the grid as far as reception goes. Right now. Right now I am not getting any reception. I just scanned my Vizio and nothing no channels. I keep adjusting the cable line and I may get 1 or two but every time I try and adjust it to see if the channels are back on I lose the two that I have been able to get. That why technology is for the rich and famous IF YOUR POOR YOUR OUT!


----------



## LilTekey

DeweyNC said:


> Just noticed a large drum (like a musical drum but on its side) looking object mounted on the side of the cell tower that's about a mile from me.
> Some trees had just been cleared from the view from the road so it may had been there but I'm really leaning on it was recently added. This drum object is just off pointed towards my home.
> 
> Any ideas of this object?


those are common and used a lot here on top of the buildings downtown like at hospitals or big company buildings. But definitely the hospitals have them on top of the buildings.


----------



## Davenlr

DeweyNC said:


> Just noticed a large drum
> 
> Any ideas of this object?


Microwave antenna?


----------



## jkeldo

LilTekey said:


> it is the second one the square flat one and nothing has worked in my location except that one trust me I have been through it. As far as I am concerned that antenna is God! Lol Sorry but it is true I have tried several I am under cable wires and cable connector boxes and electrical boxes right out my front door maybe 30 feet from me. so there has to be interference. If I use one of those little signal finders with an antenna on it goes off the chart when I point it over there. So the field of electricity is really high. And when I connected the $160 antenna by that little window it could not get reception there either, but it could at the south end of the house but that is a major install and it has to be outside because that antenna is a big block and to big to be in the house with the probes etc. It will get knocked over and broken or will break a window. but that Clear Tv antenna fits stuck to the glass in my little kitchen window and with the pandemic all of a sudden all the major stations went dark or of the grid as far as reception goes. Right now. Right now I am not getting any reception. I just scanned my Vizio and nothing no channels. I keep adjusting the cable line and I may get 1 or two but every time I try and adjust it to see if the channels are back on I lose the two that I have been able to get. That why technology is for the rich and famous IF YOUR POOR YOUR OUT!


If it worked before, it might work again. Those flat antennas are similar to the Mohu ones which do work if your signals are strong enough but in general, they are not great performers unless you are pretty close to the towers. I would try moving the actual antenna on the window an inch or two and then rescan. In my location, there was one station which would only work in a very specific spot and it took some time to find it. Maybe something is blocking your signals now. As for the outside cables, unless you have a lot of VHF channels, those should not be an issue. UHF ones operate at a much higher frequency and are not affected as much. If you look at the report Rabbit generated, there are five stations in yellow that are VHF so those might be affected. The flat antennas are usually not VHF antennas although they will pick up those stations if you're close enough. 

By the way, some newer windows have coatings that can block tv signals so try moving it near the window but not on it if that is the case. Experimentation can be frustrating but you just might find a better spot.


----------



## rabbit73

LilTekey said:


> *it is the second one the square flat one* and nothing has worked in my location except that one trust me I have been through it. As far as I am concerned that antenna is God!..... but it could at the south end of the house..... but that Clear Tv antenna fits stuck to the glass Right now I am not getting any reception. I just scanned my Vizio and nothing no channels.!


 Can you put the Vizio TV and the antenna at the south end of the house?

The reason why the big antenna didn't work at the north end of the house is probably because big antennas have more gain but are are more directional, like a searchlight or spotlight. They must be aimed at the transmitter. What big antenna did you try?

You must put the antenna where the signals are; the signals are not always going to come to where you want the antenna.


----------



## bobchase

LilTekey said:


> those are common and used a lot here on top of the buildings downtown like at hospitals or big company buildings. But definitely the hospitals have them on top of the buildings.


Andrews high gain microwave antennas look like a drum. They connect a cell site back to a hub or central site.


----------



## CHASLS2

jkeldo said:


> Those ClearTV antennas are known to be poor performers. Maybe the OP got lucky using it in the window. I would like to know the antenna that cost $160.00 that didn't work.


They would never work where i live 40+ miles from most towers southeast of the Tampa area.


----------



## LilTekey

bobchase said:


> Andrews high gain microwave antennas look like a drum. They connect a cell site back to a hub or central site.


yes those are them although The ones here are twice the width of those pictured.


----------



## LilTekey

Still, no reception it's causing a pandemic!


----------



## Prototype3a

With the 17% off at Newark (MCM) I purchased...

Stellar Labs 30-2475

Stellar Labs 30-2476

The 2476 arrived with the box ripped open, several elements bent, one broken and half an element missing.

After pestering Newark customer service on the phone, they agreed to refund the 2476.

I generally like the bolt together construction though I may replace all the wingnuts with locknuts and washers. I wish other companies did not use the "snap together" construction as it makes it really hard to get the antenna back into the box for storage if it doesn't work out.

Anyway, I was able to "borrow" some parts that were close in size from the 2475 to get a workable 2476. I'm tempted to order another 2476 so I can restore the 2475 and store it in case I need it.


----------



## jkeldo

Prototype3a said:


> With the 17% off at Newark (MCM) I purchased...
> 
> Stellar Labs 30-2475
> 
> Stellar Labs 30-2476
> 
> The 2476 arrived with the box ripped open, several elements bent, one broken and half an element missing.
> 
> After pestering Newark customer service on the phone, they agreed to refund the 2476.
> 
> I generally like the bolt together construction though I may replace all the wingnuts with locknuts and washers. I wish other companies did not use the "snap together" construction as it makes it really hard to get the antenna back into the box for storage if it doesn't work out.
> 
> Anyway, I was able to "borrow" some parts that were close in size from the 2475 to get a workable 2476. I'm tempted to order another 2476 so I can restore the 2475 and store it in case I need it.


I was thinking of ordering an antenna from them a few weeks ago but the way their system works, you can't see the shipping charges unless you enter your credit card information as opposed to before that point. So I was wondering what did they charge you for shipping? I even called them and they couldn't give me an exact cost. It's amazing that most retailers can give you that information and they cannot.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> The 2476 arrived with the box ripped open, several elements bent, one broken and half an element missing.
> 
> After pestering Newark customer service on the phone, they agreed to refund the 2476.


Yeah, I've received many antennas that were damaged in shipping. Antennas need to be double-boxed, but most suppliers aren't willing to do that.


----------



## Prototype3a

jkeldo said:


> I was thinking of ordering an antenna from them a few weeks ago but the way their system works, you can't see the shipping charges unless you enter your credit card information as opposed to before that point. So I was wondering what did they charge you for shipping? I even called them and they couldn't give me an exact cost. It's amazing that most retailers can give you that information and they cannot.


I thought the shipping was fairly reasonable. I think it was about $10 for two antennas and a smaller box of electronics parts.

BTW, when I said the box was ripped open, I mean that I didn't actually have to do anything to remove the antenna from the box. About 1ft worth of the box was just kind of hanging there.


----------



## jkeldo

Prototype3a said:


> I thought the shipping was fairly reasonable. I think it was about $10 for two antennas and a smaller box of electronics parts.
> 
> BTW, when I said the box was ripped open, I mean that I didn't actually have to do anything to remove the antenna from the box. About 1ft worth of the box was just kind of hanging there.


Thanks for that information. I have also read about others receiving damaged boxes so that is definitely an issue. Like Rabbit said, they should double box the shipment.


----------



## LilTekey

jkeldo said:


> If it worked before, it might work again. Those flat antennas are similar to the Mohu ones which do work if your signals are strong enough but in general, they are not great performers unless you are pretty close to the towers. I would try moving the actual antenna on the window an inch or two and then rescan. In my location, there was one station which would only work in a very specific spot and it took some time to find it. Maybe something is blocking your signals now. As for the outside cables, unless you have a lot of VHF channels, those should not be an issue. UHF ones operate at a much higher frequency and are not affected as much. If you look at the report Rabbit generated, there are five stations in yellow that are VHF so those might be affected. The flat antennas are usually not VHF antennas although they will pick up those stations if you're close enough.
> 
> By the way, some newer windows have coatings that can block tv signals so try moving it near the window but not on it if that is the case. Experimentation can be frustrating but you just might find a better spot.


Well I disconnected the Magnavox DVR and modulator and the Clear Antenna from the back of the TV.
I installed another boxed antenna similar to the Clear TV call One something to the TV only, and scanned that and got 97 channels. Unbelievable, I am just glad to have reception; and I don't want to work on finding out (which one)of the modulator, or the DVR, or the clear antenna has decided not to work. At least I know the TV Tuner and the spare antenna works that didn't work the last time I tried using it when I had reception problems like this before. So for now I am not using the DVR to record anything and just watching my shows live until I recover from the stress of not having reception for 5 days.:smile:


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## rabbit73

LilTekey said:


> I installed another boxed antenna similar to the Clear TV call One something to the TV only, and scanned that and got 97 channels. Unbelievable, I am just glad to have reception; and I don't want to work on finding out (which one)of the modulator, or the DVR, or the clear antenna has decided not to work. At least I know the TV Tuner and the spare antenna works.....:smile:


Good job, LilTekey!

*Please tell us the name of the antenna that worked.* If you still have the box, maybe it's on it. Otherwise, maybe a link to the antenna.


----------



## jkeldo

LilTekey said:


> Well I disconnected the Magnavox DVR and modulator and the Clear Antenna from the back of the TV.
> I installed another boxed antenna similar to the Clear TV call One something to the TV only, and scanned that and got 97 channels. Unbelievable, I am just glad to have reception; and I don't want to work on finding out (which one)of the modulator, or the DVR, or the clear antenna has decided not to work. At least I know the TV Tuner and the spare antenna works that didn't work the last time I tried using it when I had reception problems like this before. So for now I am not using the DVR to record anything and just watching my shows live until I recover from the stress of not having reception for 5 days.:smile:


Good to hear. As I mentioned before, I don't think you need a modulator if it's what I think it is. Do you know what that part is for in your setup? If it is running through the RF inputs/outputs, that could be your problem if is is not working. You can just connect the DVR directly into one of the HDMI inputs which will give you the best quality picture.


----------



## budh9534

shoman94 said:


> rabbit73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for the report from Maine. Keep working on it.
> 
> When I was a kid, my parents took me to Orr's Island where I learned to love blueberry pie.
> 
> After I was married, I took my wife to Bar Harbor and then to Montreal for the Expo '67 World's Fair.
> 
> Not much activity on this forum. Understandably, people are concerned about other problems now.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea I'm in Southern Maine about 15 min south of Portland but I grew up in the northern tip of Maine. Blueberries are big here.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Before moving to the southwest Michigan and South Bend IN area almost 20 years ago, I lived my entire life in Maine, in or near Augusta, the state capitol.


----------



## rabbit73

*LTE Pulse Pixelation*

Tyler The Antenna Man has posted a video about testing the Channel Master CM-3201 LTE Filter. In the video, he shows an example of LTE interference which he calls LTE Pulse Pixelation; 1:43 to 1:49 and 2:17 to 2:23 in the video.






Here are two frame captures of the LTE Pulse Pixelation:



















The pixelation is very brief, not like the usual pixelation we are used to seeing that he shows 2:59 to 3:06.


----------



## shoman94

rabbit73 said:


> Tyler The Antenna Man has posted a video about testing the Channel Master CM-3201 LTE Filter. In the video, he shows an example of LTE interference which he calls LTE Pulse Pixelation; 1:43 to 1:49 and 2:17 to 2:23 in the video.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B87GMPdKZ5E
> 
> Here are two frame captures of the LTE Pulse Pixelation:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The pixelation is very brief, not like the usual pixelation we are used to seeing that he shows 2:59 to 3:06.


I wonder what the signal quality and symbol quality looked like while that was happening.


----------



## Trip in VA

I'm wary of this video. First, AntennaSearch is not a complete set of all towers used for cell phones. It's not exhaustive; no such dataset exists. Second, I think the interference shown is on the uplink side, which means it has more to do with the proximity and transmit power of the phone than the cell tower. Given the bursty nature of it, that seems likely. Further, with the move to the 600 MHz band, the downlink is going to be closer to the TV band than the uplink, and will look more like continuous interference in most cases I would think.

- Trip


----------



## rabbit73

shoman94 said:


> I wonder what the signal quality and symbol quality looked like while that was happening.


Tyler uses a converter box that gives only signal quality for testing antennas. I don't know what the TV shown in the video gives.


----------



## rabbit73

Trip in VA said:


> I'm wary of this video. First, AntennaSearch is not a complete set of all towers used for cell phones. It's not exhaustive; no such dataset exists. Second, I think the interference shown is on the uplink side, which means it has more to do with the proximity and transmit power of the phone than the cell tower. Given the bursty nature of it, that seems likely. Further, with the move to the 600 MHz band, the downlink is going to be closer to the TV band than the uplink, and will look more like continuous interference in most cases I would think.
> 
> - Trip


Hello, Trip; hope you are staying well.

I answered your 2nd PM on DHC; did you read it? I talked about my ham adventures when I was younger.

Yeah, it's difficult to say exactly what caused the interference, but I thought it was an interesting test of the filter.


----------



## shoman94

Trip in VA said:


> I'm wary of this video. First, AntennaSearch is not a complete set of all towers used for cell phones. It's not exhaustive; no such dataset exists. Second, I think the interference shown is on the uplink side, which means it has more to do with the proximity and transmit power of the phone than the cell tower. Given the bursty nature of it, that seems likely. Further, with the move to the 600 MHz band, the downlink is going to be closer to the TV band than the uplink, and will look more like continuous interference in most cases I would think.
> 
> - Trip


It does seem odd that it fixed it anyways.


----------



## Trip in VA

Yes, staying well; I hope you are too. I forgot to reply to your DHC message and will do so over the weekend.

I'm not saying it's not LTE interference, I'm saying that it's not necessarily representative of what everyone who has LTE interference will see, especially going forward when the last lingering stations above channel 37 clear out.

- Trip


----------



## shoman94

rabbit73 said:


> Yeah, it's difficult to say exactly what caused the interference, but I thought it was an interesting test of the filter.


Sure was.

Today I went on the roof and removed the reflector on my DB4e. I was able to get an adjustment that removed the glitch from RF-36 along with adding the CM3201 on my UHF input of my AD combiner.

Here is whats odd. I still get the weird Signal quality bounce but I'm not not losing my symbol quality. I decided to time my signal bounce and every 18 seconds on the money my Signal Quality drops 10-11% for a second the climbs back up. This repeats every 18 seconds! Even aiming at the tower did not remove this bounce.

The other odd thing I noticed was that I have two channels RF-15 and RF-17 that are on the same tower and have totally different signals. I can aim my antenna to the point I'm losing RF-17 and RF-15 is still 90+ signal. With the reflector removed I can spin the antenna 360 and never lose RF-15. Odd stuff.

Below are the specs from the two Antennas.

RF-17:
1572' 1000 kW DA (E) (Vertical ERP: 250 kW)
(58.95 kW + 12.3 dB gain = 1000 kW ERP)
70.9 mile contour / 15807 sq. mi. area / Est. Pop. 1,256,014
1527' AGL; 1952' AMSL; (1024383)
0.75° Elec Beam Tilt; Full Service Filter
[H-Pat] DIELECTRIC TFU-26DSC/VP-R C130

RF-15:
1640' 1000 kW ND (E) (Vertical ERP: 266.3 kW)	
(55.78 kW + 12.54 dB gain = 1000 kW ERP)
74 mile contour / 17203.7 sq. mi. area / Est. Pop. 1,644,168
1596' AGL; 2021' AMSL; (1024383)
0.75° Elec Beam Tilt; Full Service Filter
DIELECTRIC TFU-33JTH/VP-R O6


----------



## Calaveras

shoman94 said:


> Today I went on the roof and removed the reflector on my DB4e. I was able to get an adjustment that removed the glitch from RF-36 along with adding the CM3201 on my UHF input of my AD combiner.


What do you mean by "adjustment?" Did you rotate the antenna?



shoman94 said:


> Here is whats odd. I still get the weird Signal quality bounce but I'm not not losing my symbol quality. I decided to time my signal bounce and every 18 seconds on the money my Signal Quality drops 10-11% for a second the climbs back up. This repeats every 18 seconds! Even aiming at the tower did not remove this bounce.


Symbol Quality, with a few exceptions, is either 0% or 100%. In the very narrow range of SNR just below 15.2 dB when there are uncorrected errors but the TV is still able to display a broken picture and sound, the Symbol Quality will be


----------



## shoman94

Calaveras said:


> What do you mean by "adjustment?" Did you rotate the antenna?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Symbol Quality, with a few exceptions, is either 0% or 100%. In the very narrow range of SNR just below 15.2 dB when there are uncorrected errors but the TV is still able to display a broken picture and sound, the Symbol Quality will be


----------



## Calaveras

shoman94 said:


> I was and still am thinking it is a local interference but it only affects that one channel. One thing I found out yesterday is that I have a Acurite Weather station on the same pole and it's my understanding from my research is that it broadcasts information to the Acurite Hub every 18 seconds but is uses a signal in the 433mhz band. It would make no sense to only affect RF36 IMO, but I do plan to turn it off and see what happens. It is a simple check for me.



Seems to me that the 18 seconds nails it down. There could be a spurious signal coming out of the weather station. I would say it's not a good idea to have any transmitter that close to your TV antennas unless you can control when it transmits.

One set of my TV antennas are on my ham radio tower. When I transmit it wreaks havoc on the TV signals but I have 100% control of the transmitters. I just don't transmit when I'm recording a TV program.


----------



## MBrown2020

Calaveras said:


> What do you mean by "adjustment?" Did you rotate the antenna?
> 
> 
> 
> Symbol Quality, with a few exceptions, is either 0% or 100%. In the very narrow range of SNR just below 15.2 dB when there are uncorrected errors but the TV is still able to display a broken picture and sound, the Symbol Quality will be


----------



## Calaveras

MBrown2020 said:


> Can I use the RTLSDR USB dongle along with RTLSDR Scanner software to use as a spectrum anaylzer as Rabbit alluded to? I am having the same problem I believe with Fox 11 WLUK in Green Bay.



I'm not familiar with this so maybe Rabbit73 or someone else can answer that for you.


----------



## mrradiohead55

MBrown2020 said:


> Can I use the RTLSDR USB dongle along with RTLSDR Scanner software to use as a spectrum anaylzer as Rabbit alluded to? I am having the same problem I believe with Fox 11 WLUK in Green Bay.



MBrown2020, I use an AirSpy HF+ tuner with SDR Console to look at DTV signals, in addition to tuning 50-108 MHz frequencies. You can certainly try using yours for a spectrum analyzer. I've used it to troubleshoot some FM signals that were having problems and alerted engineers of situations they didn't know existed.

I have a couple hi VHF channels that have regular signals on them - channel's 9 and 10. Channel 10 is a very local signal and it seems to overwhelm the AirSpy HF+ tuner. I don't mean that it overloads it - the spectrum displayed in SDR Console when tuned to 192.31 MHz is just a total space of white. I've attached a screen capture of what it looks like.

When I zoom in I can see the signal activity, including the pilot signature at 192.31. You might be able to see what you're looking for in looking at the spectrum for 11.

Jim - Springfield, Missouri


----------



## MBrown2020

@*rabbit73* 


I received the RTL USB dongle and installed RTLscanner and did a quick scan to get started.(See pic) I just don't know how to interpret the results. Am I close?


EDIT: Perhaps you can DL the scan and load it in your RTLScanner?


----------



## MBrown2020

I changed Gain to 25dB as I saw in an example and got something a little more useful, i guess?


----------



## rabbit73

MBrown2020 said:


> I changed Gain to 25dB as I saw in an example and got something a little more useful, i guess?


 That was exactly the correct thing to do. The rule is to increase the gain until just before the noise floor starts to rise.










I suggest you change the color scale from jet to winter so that the top of the channel scan is darker.










This is what happens if you set the gain too high:










You have less electrical noise interference than I have on VHF-High. Here is a severe case of electrical noise interference:


----------



## MBrown2020

rabbit73 said:


> That was exactly the correct thing to do. The rule is to increase the gain until just before the noise floor starts to rise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest you change the color scale from jet to winter so that the top of the channel scan is darker.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have less electrical noise interference than I have on VHF-High.



I guess I'm still a little lost? What on the graph tells you this (The smaller amount of vertical spikes along the bottom between the channel?)
What does this scan tell us about channel 11?


----------



## rabbit73

MBrown2020 said:


> I guess I'm still a little lost? What on the graph tells you this (The smaller amount of vertical spikes along the bottom between the channel?)


That is correct



> What does this scan tell us about channel 11?


It tells me this:










What else do you want it to tell you?


----------



## MBrown2020

rabbit73 said:


> That is correct
> 
> What else do you want it to tell you?



I was hoping it would confirm my issue with it being transmitter ramp up on Fox 11 WLUK, like @Calaveras showed in his pic.


I don't know how he measured that output, though.


I know this most likely will be moot after 5/1/2020 repack to channel 12, but was still trying to verify it.


----------



## rabbit73

MBrown2020 said:


> I was hoping it would confirm my issue with it being transmitter ramp up on Fox 11 WLUK, like @*Calaveras* showed in his pic.














> I don't know how he measured that output, though.


He would be best able to answer that question, but it looks like he connected his antenna to the Rigol spectrum analyzer and did a scan across 8 MHz; 6 MHz for the channel plus 1 MHz on each side. The spectrum analyzer measures amplitude vs frequency, so the scan must be very slow across the channel to record a dropout during the scan.

You might be able to set the scan for 197 to 205 MHz in the continuous mode with the scan speed set slow (dwell).


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> He would be best able to answer that question, but it looks like he connected his antenna to the Rigol spectrum analyzer and did a scan across 8 MHz; 6 MHz for the channel plus 1 MHz on each side. The spectrum analyzer measures amplitude vs frequency, so the scan must be very slow across the channel to record a dropout during the scan.
> 
> You might be able to set the scan for 197 to 205 MHz in the continuous mode with the scan speed set slow (dwell).



You are correct. In the lower right of the display is "SWT." That is Sweep Time and it was set to 20 seconds, which means 20 seconds to scan the entire range. I just let it sweep over and over until the power cycling fell nicely in the range and I froze the trace and saved it.

KMMD is a LP station running 15KW. It looks like the "ON" power was 13 dB below full power which would put the ON power at 750 watts.

This is another example of a low power station monitored by no one. They had no idea that there was a problem until I e-mailed them.


----------



## dr1394

Trip in VA said:


> I'm wary of this video. First, AntennaSearch is not a complete set of all towers used for cell phones. It's not exhaustive; no such dataset exists. Second, I think the interference shown is on the uplink side, which means it has more to do with the proximity and transmit power of the phone than the cell tower. Given the bursty nature of it, that seems likely. Further, with the move to the 600 MHz band, the downlink is going to be closer to the TV band than the uplink, and will look more like continuous interference in most cases I would think.
> 
> - Trip


 The power output of an LTE base station does vary quite a bit. When it doesn't have any data to send, the resource block sub-carriers are not modulated. Here's an example. The fainter trace is the peak hold function. You can also see a resource block (a group of sub-carriers) being used in the current trace. This base station is right across the street from me.


----------



## rabbit73

MBrown2020 said:


> I was hoping it would confirm my issue with it being transmitter ramp up on Fox 11 WLUK, like @*Calaveras* showed in his pic.


I did some tests with my VHF-High signals. A $22 dongle is certainly no match for the Rigol SA, but it might work for you.

In Dec, I was moved from a room on the 1st floor to a room on the 2nd floor with a window that faces the transmitters. I thought the signals would be better, but they are worse; might have something to do with the trees and a roof peak in the signal path.:frown:



















In spite of the crappy signals, my Sony TV gives an SNR of 16 dB for ch7 and an SNR of 20 dB for ch 13.

I don't have a channel 11, but I do have a channel 13:










The above scan took about 50 seconds.










The antenna switch was turned off for about 10 seconds. I can't explain the double step down and up. It might have something to do with the fact that the dongle can't do a scan this wide; it stitches together shorter scans in the spectrum analyzer software. Some of the test scans didn't show the pilot, probably because of the poor signal quality; I forgot to save one.

I tried other SA software for the dongle:



















I used a single scan instead of a continuous scan. If you use a continuous scan, you must stop it at the end of the first scan or the second scan will overwrite the first scan. You can see that the ambient noise is higher than the noise floor of the dongle, which reduces the SNR of the signals.

I'm wondering if the SDRplay RSP1A
https://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-015965ideo

with Steve Andrew's Spectrum Analyser Software 
https://www.sdrplay.com/spectrum-analyser/

would do any better with this problem?


----------



## DeweyNC

Im considering splitting my main antenna line in the attic (simplest approach) to run to a total of 3 tvs in my home instead of the 1 tv my main antenna is connected.

Im currently using a RCA TVPRAMP1Z mast mounted amp with its power supply near the tv.

I was considering something like the CM-3414 which looks to be powered by a standalone F cable.

If Im understanding correctly I just need to remove my current power supply (& adapter/inserter) at the tv since these splitter units have there own power supply & leave the mast part.

Im concerned about having the unit (like the CM-3414) in the attic due to the summer temperatures, im not sure if it has heat sensitive electronics. 

Any incite?
Thanks


EDIT
Looks like the CM3414 is only +8db.
The CM-3412 lists at 11db.
The RCA Im using shows VHF +16db & UHF +22db on the package.
The RCA VH240R at my local lowes lists at 10db & about half the cost of the CM3414.
May have to rethink this plan.

I did order some F Type 75 Ohm Terminator caps but not sure how much they help.
.


----------



## bobchase

DeweyNC said:


> Im considering splitting my main antenna line in the attic (simplest approach) to run to a total of 3 tvs in my home instead of the 1 tv my main antenna is connected.
> 
> Im currently using a RCA TVPRAMP1Z mast mounted amp with its power supply near the tv.
> 
> I was considering something like the CM-3414 which looks to be powered by a standalone F cable.
> 
> If Im understanding correctly I just need to remove my current power supply (& adapter/inserter) at the tv since these splitter units have there own power supply & leave the mast part.
> 
> Im concerned about having the unit (like the CM-3414) in the attic due to the summer temperatures, im not sure if it has heat sensitive electronics.
> 
> Any incite?
> Thanks
> 
> 
> EDIT
> Looks like the CM3414 is only +8db.
> The CM-3412 lists at 11db.
> The RCA Im using shows VHF +16db & UHF +22db on the package.
> The RCA VH240R at my local lowes lists at 10db & about half the cost of the CM3414.
> May have to rethink this plan.
> 
> I did order some F Type 75 Ohm Terminator caps but not sure how much they help.
> .


Why don't you try a 4-port power passing splitter 1st. You may have enough gain to accommodate the loss of the 4-port splitter for your existing system to work. The channel master amplified splitters don't have a power output port. Hooking the amplified splitter up as you describe will de-power the preamp so you will get nothing at the TV.


----------



## rabbit73

MBrown2020 said:


> I was hoping it would confirm my issue with it being transmitter ramp up on Fox 11 WLUK, like @*Calaveras* showed in his pic.


I wasn't completely satisfied with the performance of the RTL-SDR dongle with your VHF-High problem, so I tried the SDRplay RSP1A SDR with the SDRuno and RSP-SpectrumAnalyser softwares.

Today, my channel 7 was stronger than my channel 13, so I used 7 for some tests.

The RSP1A with SDRuno software can show a continuous spectrum display up to 10 MHz wide. If a channel drops out, you will certainly see it happen:










This is what the spectrum analyzer software looks like with a 20 MHz span:










and with a 10 MHz span:










I haven't found a way to slow down the sweep time like in the SDR dongle software to show dropout and recovery in one scan, but you will be able to see the dropout and recovery as you watch the trace.

I did a review of the RSP1A SDR here:
*Testing the SDRplay RSP1A Software-Defined Radio*
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...ing-sdrplay-rsp1a-software-defined-radio.html


----------



## DeweyNC

So with power passing splitters, which way would be more efficient?

The splitter images are generic images I grabbed to make the illustrations.


----------



## Calaveras

DeweyNC said:


> So with power passing splitters, which way would be more efficient?
> 
> The splitter images are generic images I grabbed to make the illustrations.



They'll be very close to equal. 2-way splitters typically have 3.5 dB loss per port so two cascaded 2-way splitters will have 7 dB loss. 4-way splitters typically have 7 db loss.

How long is the antenna to splitter coax?


----------



## DeweyNC

Antenna to the 1st splitter would be about 20ft (once I cut the R6-cable).
Currently my R6-cable on the roof top antenna to the main tv is about 30ft. 

So I figure about 70ft to the second splitter (Antenna to 2nd splitter)
& the short leads off it to the tvs maybe 10ft each.




Calaveras said:


> They'll be very close to equal. 2-way splitters typically have 3.5 dB loss per port so two cascaded 2-way splitters will have 7 dB loss. 4-way splitters typically have 7 db loss.
> 
> How long is the antenna to splitter coax?


----------



## Calaveras

DeweyNC said:


> Antenna to the 1st splitter would be about 20ft (once I cut the R6-cable).
> Currently my R6-cable on the roof top antenna to the main tv is about 30ft.
> 
> So I figure about 70ft to the second splitter (Antenna to 2nd splitter)
> & the short leads off it to the tvs maybe 10ft each.



Using the UHF gain and Noise Figure that I measured for your preamp and 70' of coax with a 4-way splitter, the system noise figure is degraded only 0.5 dB. You should not need a distribution amp. A distribution amp will only get you a couple tenths of a dB improvement in signal-to-noise ratio.


----------



## tustinfarm

I am thinking of upgrading to the new LTE filter model from Channel Master with the 600 MHz cutoff. But one of my reliable channels (WUPA Atlanta) is on RF 36...just above 600 MHz.

Has anyone made any detailed dB measurements of the LTE filter rolloff in the 590-620 MHz range? If I knew how much of an insertion loss the filter would present I should able to gauge the impact on my reception before I order the new filter.


----------



## rabbit73

tustinfarm said:


> I am thinking of upgrading to the new LTE filter model from Channel Master with the 600 MHz cutoff. But one of my reliable channels (WUPA Atlanta) is on RF 36...just above 600 MHz.
> 
> Has anyone made any detailed dB measurements of the LTE filter rolloff in the 590-620 MHz range? If I knew how much of an insertion loss the filter would present I should able to gauge the impact on my reception before I order the new filter.


According to my measurements, the new CM filter would make 36 about 3.3 dB weaker:


----------



## lifespeed

SFischer1 said:


> Plus all the stations that are moving in frequency get a brand new transmitter for free from the FCC. (~ $19.8B) Wonder why smart phones cost so much?



You mean why does your mobile phone bill cost so much.


----------



## tustinfarm

rabbit73 said:


> According to my measurements, the new CM filter would make 36 about 3.3 dB weaker:


Thanks Rabbit73, I'm pretty sure a 3.3 dB hit on RF36 will be fine for my setup. And thankfully that station (WUPA) happens to be one of the "stalwarts" in my lineup, though like 90% of my channels it's in that borderline "2 edge" zone about 60 miles from a tower. About once every month or so the 2 edge propagation fails me on some of the channels (but usually not RF36). Usually that's during an odd weather event like thunderstorms or a frontal boundary in just the wrong spot. During those odd events I've taken detailed looks at the channel signal spectra, and the failure is either due to actual signal reduction from the 2 edges not diffracting as well, or interference from even more distant co-channels (tropo ducting).


----------



## Falcon_77

Hi All,

I was wondering if anyone else has tried building a cubical quad for Hi-V. I have one and it does ok, but my question in how to feed it. Using the typical 300 Ohm Yagi > 75 Ohm coax balun is probably a bad idea as a quad should be around 50 Ohms. So I'm probably stepping 50 to down around 12.5 Ohms.

Here are some pictures of what I have made. This is for our WA house which is in an HOA and Hi-V has been fraught with peril in the attic. I'm trying to make a shorter boom Hi-V antenna that can fit in the attic.

Any comments?

Thanks,


----------



## rabbit73

Nice cubical quad; reminds me of some ham antennas I made. Is the reflector a little longer than the driven element? I can't tell from the photo.

For a comparison, try feeding it directly with 75 ohm coax which should be closer than a 300 ohm balun. If you need a choke balun because of outer shield current, you can make a choke balun by winding the coax through a ring toroid or use clamp on ferrite beads like the Amidon 2x31-3951p2 depending upon the coax OD.
http://www.amidoncorp.com/2x31-3951p2/


----------



## Calaveras

Falcon_77 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I was wondering if anyone else has tried building a cubical quad for Hi-V. I have one and it does ok, but my question in how to feed it. Using the typical 300 Ohm Yagi > 75 Ohm coax balun is probably a bad idea as a quad should be around 50 Ohms. So I'm probably stepping 50 to down around 12.5 Ohms.
> 
> Here are some pictures of what I have made. This is for our WA house which is in an HOA and Hi-V has been fraught with peril in the attic. I'm trying to make a shorter boom Hi-V antenna that can fit in the attic.
> 
> Any comments?
> 
> Thanks,


The ARRL Antenna Book says quads with element spacings of .14 to .20 waves have an impedance of 40-60 ohms. If the element spacing is .25 waves the impedance rises to 80-100 ohms. You could feed that directly with RG-6 and a choke balun.

I wouldn't recommend a quad for high VHF TV. A quad is a narrowband antenna. The 144 MHz quad example in the Antenna Book shows a useable SWR of around 5 MHz. Extrapolating that to 195 MHz, you get about 6.5 MHz. So a quad could be an excellent single channel antenna but it won't be much good for 174 to 216 MHz.

The Antenna Book also compares a 5 element yagi to a 5 element quad. The quad can be as much as 1 dB more gain but the F/B ratio across the band is not as consistent as it is with a yagi.

All in all, it hardly seems worth the trouble to build a quad for VHF TV unless you're only looking for a one channel antenna.


----------



## tustinfarm

*Coax on roof placement and routing*

As part of some spring antenna maintenance I decided to re-do all the RG-6 coax around my antenna set (30-2476 & 91XG feeding RCA preamp), as well as the 50 foot run from the preamp to distribution amp in the crawlspace.

I put this together about 4 years ago, and at the time just laid the coax feedline down on the low pitch roof, dangling it over the roof edge to the ground. A typical sloppy installation by someone (me) with minimal mechanical skills. Yesterday I decided to replace all the old coax with a new set, and got to thinking about the "proper" way to secure the coax on the roof and route it over the edge and down to the brick wall. The roof edge protrudes about 3 feet (soffit width?) beyond the brick wall below. On the wall I could use the same type of screw anchors that the cable company uses, but I am wondering what folks use for the roof anchoring and/or that transition over the edge.

Oh yeah, as the saying goes, "no good deed goes unpunished"...my big reward for replacing the lines from the two antennas to the preamp, and preamp to the house was a slight _decrease_in the S/N ratio on a few of my channels. Wild guess is that the old line that was laying directly on the ground may have helped absorb the abundant LTE signals coming in on the shield from a nearby set of _four _ cell towers. That's a story for another day, for now I just want to get the coax "mechanicals" done right.


----------



## tustinfarm

*Pulling RG-6 Coax from Box - Avoiding kinks?*

I have a nice big spool of quad shield RG-6 coax that comes in an installer style cardboard box, where you just pull it out as needed. But one thing I find disturbing is the way the coax catches and forms a severe loop kink as I pull out every few feet. Wondering is there is some trick to getting coax to spool out normally without damaging it.

I hate to see the coax pinched like that, it is reminiscent of 1980s style cable installers who would just _staple _coax to walls. I try my best to straighten and smooth the pinched areas, but have some fear the damage can't be reversed.


----------



## rabbit73

of


tustinfarm said:


> I hate to see the coax pinched like that, it is reminiscent of 1980s style cable installers who would just _staple _coax to walls. I try my best to straighten and smooth the pinched areas, but have some fear the damage can't be reversed.


Your fear is justified. Do whatever is necessary to avoid kinks from forming in the first place. 










If the radius of a bend is too small, the center conductor will migrate through foam dielectric toward the shield by cold flow. The specs for any particular coax will state the minimum bend radius of a curve.

https://www.familyhandyman.com/electrical/wiring/tips-for-coaxial-cable-wiring/


----------



## Falcon_77

Calaveras said:


> The ARRL Antenna Book says quads with element spacings of .14 to .20 waves have an impedance of 40-60 ohms. If the element spacing is .25 waves the impedance rises to 80-100 ohms. You could feed that directly with RG-6 and a choke balun.
> 
> I wouldn't recommend a quad for high VHF TV. A quad is a narrowband antenna. The 144 MHz quad example in the Antenna Book shows a useable SWR of around 5 MHz. Extrapolating that to 195 MHz, you get about 6.5 MHz. So a quad could be an excellent single channel antenna but it won't be much good for 174 to 216 MHz.


I was wondering about the bw. I'm trying to make it for RF channel 9 in Seattle, but I'd still like to get 11 and 13 on it, if possible. At least I don't need RF7 there, like in LA.

Any other suggestions for a short boom Hi-V antenna other than a C5? I suppose I could try one of those again. I wasn't too impressed by that one when I had in here in LA a few years ago before dumping it.

I was even thinking of a VHF bow-tie, but that's going to be rather big for even just 2 elements. Maybe a 1 element is doable.



rabbit73 said:


> Nice cubical quad; reminds me of some ham antennas I made. Is the reflector a little longer than the driven element? I can't tell from the photo.
> 
> For a comparison, try feeding it directly with 75 ohm coax which should be closer than a 300 ohm balun. If you need a choke balun because of outer shield current, you can make a choke balun by winding the coax through a ring toroid or use clamp on ferrite beads like the Amidon 2x31-3951p2 depending upon the coax OD.


Thank you. Yes, the reflector is a bit bigger and the directors are each a little smaller. Good point on the choke balun. I can make one with some I've used for ham stuff. There's no need to bother with an F connector on both ends, I suppose. Just solder straight to the center and then the other side to the shield.

I should know this, but what is the best way to measure the impedance? Probably with my antenna analyzer.

Thank you both again.


----------



## richart

tustinfarm said:


> Yesterday I decided to replace all the old coax with a new set, and got to thinking about the "proper" way to secure the coax on the roof and route it over the edge and down to the brick wall. The roof edge protrudes about 3 feet (soffit width?) beyond the brick wall below. On the wall I could use the same type of screw anchors that the cable company uses, but I am wondering what folks use for the roof anchoring and/or that transition over the edge.


About 45 years ago a lenient apartment owner allowed me to install a ham antenna on the roof of the shingled apartment building with the proviso that everything was well secured. I cut some 1" x 8" strips of aluminum flashing and formed a U-channel in one end by wrapping it around a metal rod. I slipped the long end of the strips under the shingles, placed the coax in the U-channel, and then pressed the U-channel partially closed to secure the coax in place. Note: be sure to sandpaper the cut edges of the aluminum flashing to get rid of the sharp edge. (Don't ask me how I know.)


----------



## tustinfarm

rabbit73 said:


> of
> Your fear is justified. Do whatever is necessary to avoid kinks from forming in the first place.


The key question is whether the kinks that formed when pulling the cable out have caused some permanent changes, even though I straightened and "unpinched" as best as i could after the fact. Some of them were really bad, as in completely folding the coax back on itself, forming a groove in the plastic sheath (ouch!). One thing I can do is use the nanoVNA device to do a two port sweep of the entire 50 foot segment over 174-610 MHz and see how that compares to the old cable section that I took out. I assume that the impedance mismatch (50 versus 75 ohms) at the instrument connections will cause some losses, but if I _compare _the two pieces' performance it should be instructive.

Next time I pull any more cable from that box it's going to be done manually with the box/reel open and fully exposed so I can _watch _it.


----------



## tustinfarm

richart said:


> ...I cut some 1" x 8" strips of aluminum flashing and formed a U-channel in one end by wrapping it around a metal rod. I slipped the long end of the strips under the shingles, placed the coax in the U-channel, and then pressed the U-channel partially closed to secure the coax in place. Note: be sure to sandpaper the cut edges of the aluminum flashing to get rid of the sharp edge. (Don't ask me how I know.)


Thank you that is an _excellent _idea, I will give that a try. And also thanks for the reminder about sanding those razor sharp edges The only drawback I can see for putting any kind of "obstruction" on the roof is the way the pine straw and leaves tend to catch. But I've already got that with the cable laying on the shingles.


----------



## richart

tustinfarm said:


> I have a nice big spool of quad shield RG-6 coax that comes in an installer style cardboard box, where you just pull it out as needed. But one thing I find disturbing is the way the coax catches and forms a severe loop kink as I pull out every few feet. Wondering is there is some trick to getting coax to spool out normally without damaging it.


I take the roll of cable out of the box and physically unroll the cable to get the length I need.

The electrician in this video demonstrates what I'm speaking of at about the 3 minute mark.

If the cable is on a spool, I anchor one end to something and unroll the spool using the same principle.


----------



## Calaveras

Falcon_77 said:


> I was wondering about the bw. I'm trying to make it for RF channel 9 in Seattle, but I'd still like to get 11 and 13 on it, if possible. At least I don't need RF7 there, like in LA.
> 
> Any other suggestions for a short boom Hi-V antenna other than a C5? I suppose I could try one of those again. I wasn't too impressed by that one when I had in here in LA a few years ago before dumping it.
> 
> I was even thinking of a VHF bow-tie, but that's going to be rather big for even just 2 elements. Maybe a 1 element is doable.



Well...... Sounds like you're looking for the magic antenna. The small antenna that works like the big antenna. I know you know that doesn't exist. 

I was going to suggest my 6 elements LPDA. It's about as small as any high VHF antenna is going to be and still have some gain and a decent pattern and covers the band with a low SWR but seems even that is too big.


----------



## rabbit73

tustinfarm said:


> The key question is whether the kinks that formed when pulling the cable out have caused some permanent changes, even though I straightened and "unpinched" as best as i could after the fact.


The answer is yes, especially if the center conductor is copper clad steel (CCS). The physical changes are certain; the electrical changes are unknown.












> Next time I pull any more cable from that box it's going to be done manually with the box/reel open and fully exposed so I can _watch _it.


Good idea.


----------



## Falcon_77

Calaveras said:


> Well...... Sounds like you're looking for the magic antenna. The small antenna that works like the big antenna. I know you know that doesn't exist.
> 
> I was going to suggest my 6 elements LPDA. It's about as small as any high VHF antenna is going to be and still have some gain and a decent pattern and covers the band with a low SWR but seems even that is too big.


Quite... It would have been easier not to worry about VHF at all, but that ship sailed long ago. At least I can filter out anything below RF7 and the mass of junk down there.

However, I have managed to overload the VHF side my tuner by a local WX station on Capitol Peak in the Olympia area. It's so close that it's hard to filter. I did get a notch filter for it, however, but that has been tricky and is not currently in use.

I think that LPDA could fit. It's a matter of getting it low enough from the roof pitch (and it's broadside, instead of length-wise, of course) while still getting over the mesh lined HVAC ducts while still getting thru composite shingles of partial concrete composition at 45+ miles away.

Yep, magic is needed.

I had expected to get back up there in March and April to try more things, but alas, something going on in the world has cancelled those trips.

Does anyone make a log like that these days for 7-13? Or is it time to make my own. I will tinker further with the Quad for now.


----------



## rabbit73

Besides the LPDA, there are three other DIY designs that you could do, one of which you have already mentioned.

The first is a 2-Bay VHF-High Bowtie Antenna. There is a 3:1 frequency ratio between UHF and VHF-High, so a VHF-High Bowtie would be about 3X the size of a UHF Bowtie. IIRC, Trip, early in his career, used a single VHF bowtie in his travels. I think you would have room for a 2-Bay Bowtie from your description. If you add a reflector, it would have as much gain as a 4-Bay without a reflector. Models by holl_ands:

https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/hivhf2bay

https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/hivhf2bayreflrods

The 2nd is two stacked 1/2 wave folded dipoles (28.5"), which wouldn't be as wide as a VHF bowtie, which is a fullwave dipole. This is a version sold by Kathrein Scala as a transmitting antenna:

http://www.kathreinusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/DRV.pdf










Newer version:










3rd: Tapered Loop.

When Dr. John Ross designed the wideband tapered UHF loop for Antennas Direct, he also tested a tapered loop for VHF-High. The final design that was marketed was the C5, because it would be less expensive to build and easier to market; the shorting bar on the C5 simulated the tapered loop.
https://www.johnross.com/SBE_2008.pdf










The tapered loop can be considered as a fullwave fan dipole with its two ends joined to form a loop. Obviously, it can be scaled for any design frequency. Antennas Direct has a Design Patent on the tapered loop, so you must not sell one if you make it.


----------



## Falcon_77

Thanks, rabbit73 and well, I'll be! What comes around goes around, huh? Trip sent me the link to his post re the VHF bowtie and I still have my UHF version he mentions in that post. I see Trip's VHF was a single element bowtie. I wonder what the impedance was. I have more work to do. 

For now, I did update the quad and the results are pretty good, but as noted by Calaveras the bw is a bit tight. But it can do about 7-11 as made. Too bad I wanted 9-13...

And that's for the Kathrein design as well, most interesting. Let the fun continue!

Here's my RE scan results with the quad. Once can click on one of the channels to compare with that other "little" antenna in my SoCal attic. If only my WA attic was like this one.

https://m.rabbitears.info/index.php?request=tvdx_grid&tid=1069F468&tno=1&hours=168&sort=all&tzone=PT&unit=&auto=Y


----------



## rabbit73

Falcon_77 said:


> I see Trip's VHF was a single element bowtie. I wonder what the impedance was.


Since it's a collinear pair of halfwave dipoles, fed at the ends of the dipoles, the feed impedance will be high. I would think that a 4:1 balun would be close enough.


> For now, I did update the quad and the results are pretty good, but as noted by Calaveras the bw is a bit tight. But it can do about 7-11 as made. Too bad I wanted 9-13...


Thanks for the interesting photos, Is that a VNA that I see? Can you tell us more about it? It looks like it would be very helpful with antenna testing. It seems to be saying 9-13 would be better if the loops were a little smaller. Is that correct? Was it connected to the whole antenna or just the DE for that reading shown?


----------



## Falcon_77

rabbit73 said:


> Since it's a collinear pair of halfwave dipoles, fed at the ends of the dipoles, the feed impedance will be high. I would think that a 4:1 balun would be close enough.
> 
> Thanks for the interesting photos, Is that a VNA that I see? Can you tell us more about it? It looks like it would be very helpful with antenna testing. It seems to be saying 9-13 would be better if the loops were a little smaller. Is that correct? Was it connected to the whole antenna or just the DE for that reading shown?


Ok, thanks. So the 300 > 75 balun might be fine for the VHF bowtie.

Indeed it is a VNA. These things are powerful, cheap and small. I highly recommend checking them out but there's definitely a learning curve. But there's videos for that.

The reading above was when I connected the full quad. The 3rd pic was for reference before I put it in. Not quite the whole antenna system, but the whole antenna and a short length of coax. I probably should check it from the distribution amp input as well or maybe the end point of one of the runs.

That's what it seems to be saying and my HDHR tuner agrees. But it's looking so good I'm not that keen on cutting wires again, especially the driven.


----------



## rabbit73

Who makes that VNA? The ones advertised in QST are above my price class.

Is it the NanoVNA? I see many versions and many sources. How do I tell the good from the bad?













Falcon_77 said:


> Indeed it is a VNA. These things are powerful, cheap and small. I highly recommend checking them out but there's definitely a learning curve. But there's videos for that.


 I had to assemble the open-source spectrum analyzer software for my RTL-SDR dongle. It took me three attempts but I finally climbed that learning curve.


----------



## rabbit73

Falcon_77 said:


> Indeed it is a VNA. These things are powerful, cheap and small. I highly recommend checking them out but there's definitely a learning curve. But there's videos for that.


 I see there is a review of the NanoVNA Vector Network Analyzer by Phil Salas, AD5X, on page 39 of QST, May 2020.

There is also a NanoVNA page here on rtl-sdr.com:
https://www.rtl-sdr.com/tag/nanovna/


----------



## Falcon_77

This is the one I got. I imagine it's a clone, but it does as well as any other analyzer I have, including the Comet, RigExpert and others.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07X2XBDF6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And I will check that review. I haven't read May's QST yet.

73,


----------



## Falcon_77

Does anyone here use 4nec2 (or a similar nec program) for antenna modeling?

I am trying to learn it again and am getting unexpected results for the VHF bowtie calculations. I'd like to see if there's something wrong with what I am doing.

It's showing I need to make the bowties *much* longer than expected (much longer than a half wave on each side-half). The bow V should be a full wave, right? I have taken into account the slower speed of light in aluminum (well 95% of c in a vacuum). I'm designing mine for RF 11 to be good for RF 9-13.

Thank you,


----------



## Falcon_77

Here's how I currently have the VHF bowtie with 36" whiskers (full length of the wires I have). I would say by the results (ignoring the modeling) that it is way too long. I see what look like harmonics at the following frequencies.

113, 151
251, 281
394, 423

I don't know what the modeling program is thinking and I couldn't even make it as long as it was suggesting. I guess more gain by more length.


----------



## rabbit73

> Does anyone here use 4nec2 (or a similar nec program) for antenna modeling?


Yes, that's what holl_ands uses.
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/hivhf2bay

To a first approximation, each halfwave side of the collinear pair fullwave dipole should be 5540/freq in MHz
For a design frequency of 195 MHz:
5540/195 = 28.4 inches

Then, you can make it a little longer because each whisker wire isn't horizontal.

Your span is wider than needed. Focus on 170-220.


----------



## Falcon_77

Very good. Thank you, rabbit73. I haven't spoken to holl_ands in years, but good to know.

Thanks for the link as well. Most interesting. holl_ands did a 2-bay design on there, which I'm thinking of as well. The most obvious difference I see right away is the 3in separation at the feedpt when mine is only 4cm. Let me attach a pic of it. I used a 1/2" pvc cross for this. A 3/4" might be better then.

Edit: I added in my results with the 3' whiskers. Pretty much as expected. I will shorten the whiskers later. I probably should also throw in some attenuation to make comparisons easier.


----------



## tustinfarm

rabbit73 said:


> ...According to my measurements, the new CM filter would make 36 about 3.3 dB weaker...


I received the new Channel Master LTE filter today, and am _delighted _to report that it does not adversely impact my RF36 station (WUPA in Atlanta, tower about 60 miles away). I did a quick and dirty test, putting it inline to an _old _Sony XBR HDTV (720p!) which has a diagnostic screen view. These are the results from the Sony:

RF Channel 36 (WUPA, virtual channel 69)
Without filter: Signal strength 98, S/N ratio 30 dB, AGC 45%
With filter inline: Signal strength 98, S/N ratio 30 dB, AGC 55%

Separately, I did a very quick and dirty measurement with a nanoVNA, scanning from 500-650 MHz. Please ignore the dB units (impedance mismatch and a 8 foot piece of coax used to connect that causes wavy pattern and about 2dB offset), but you can see the rolloff "cliff" for the filter at around 604 MHz....right there within the Channel 36 zone (602-608 MHz). But no problem whatsoever for my set up - hurrah. Having so much fun I'll need to fire up the spectrum analyzer to view the filter rolloff effect on the actual incoming signal.


----------



## Falcon_77

tustinfarm said:


> RF Channel 36 (WUPA, virtual channel 69)
> Without filter: S/N ratio 30 dB, AGC 45%
> With filter inline: S/N ratio 30 dB, AGC 55%


This is encouraging. Thank you for the update. It's knocked the signal down a little, but I'm glad to see you can still receive 36. I don't have mine yet, but will check here when I do. I think KNBC should be fine here, but I'm not optimistic about KZJO in Seattle.

Looks like 35 is a non-issue, but can you zoom in right around 596-608? Thanks!


----------



## tustinfarm

Falcon_77 said:


> This is encouraging. Thank you for the update. It's knocked the signal down a little, but I'm glad to see you can still receive 36. I don't have mine yet, but will check here when I do. I think KNBC should be fine here, but I'm not optimistic about KZJO in Seattle.
> 
> Looks like 35 is a non-issue, but can you zoom in right around 596-608? Thanks!


Attached is a zoomed in plot of 590-610 MHz for the new Channel Master LTE filter, which covers RF35 & RF36. The two markers are at 596/602 MHz. The -3dB minimum insertion loss implied by the plot may not be real, given the impedance mismatch of the analyzer (50 ohm) versus the filter (75 ohm).

I also have a strong local on RF35 (


----------



## richart

tustinfarm said:


> I received the new Channel Master LTE filter today, and am _delighted _to report that it does not adversely impact my RF36 station (WUPA in Atlanta, tower about 60 miles away). I did a quick and dirty test, putting it inline to an _old _Sony XBR HDTV (720p!) which has a diagnostic screen view. These are the results from the Sony:
> 
> RF Channel 36 (WUPA, virtual channel 69)
> Without filter: Signal strength 98, S/N ratio 30 dB, AGC 45%
> With filter inline: Signal strength 98, S/N ratio 30 dB, AGC 55%
> 
> Separately, I did a very quick and dirty measurement with a nanoVNA, scanning from 500-650 MHz. Please ignore the dB units (impedance mismatch and a 8 foot piece of coax used to connect that causes wavy pattern and about 2dB offset), but you can see the rolloff "cliff" for the filter at around 604 MHz....right there within the Channel 36 zone (602-608 MHz). But no problem whatsoever for my set up - hurrah. Having so much fun I'll need to fire up the spectrum analyzer to view the filter rolloff effect on the actual incoming signal.


Good to know, thanks for sharing. I am in Acworth about 26 air miles from the tower with signals refracting off a hilltop between us. There are a number of cell phone towers within the vicinity, one about 3000 ft away. I'll keep this filter in mind in case I need to add one since WUPA is one of my most watched stations.


----------



## Falcon_77

tustinfarm said:


> Attached is a zoomed in plot of 590-610 MHz for the new Channel Master LTE filter, which covers RF35 & RF36. The two markers are at 596/602 MHz. The -3dB minimum insertion loss implied by the plot may not be real, given the impedance mismatch of the analyzer (50 ohm) versus the filter (75 ohm).


I think this is about as good as we can hope for with a $20 filter. I am very pleased with your results as well. I want to ask and maybe I can figure it out, as to how you did a gain graph on the nanoVNA. I haven't seen that one yet, but truth be told, I still have much to learn about the device.

And I have good news. Our mail was late today and it arrived! I just tested in with the nanoVNA and here are my results (I tested SWR), but as you note there's a mismatch as the filter is 75 and the VNA is 50 Ohm. Also is a pic of my "highly sophisticated" test bed.

I am going to test it on my UHF antenna before the night is done and hope to post results in the morning. That's going to be more informative on my end.


----------



## Falcon_77

Here are my SDR results and my RE results. These are behind a 10dB attenuator or it would be more difficult to compare. I'm seeing about a 1 pt drop on RE as an insertion loss, above RF 18, and 4 points for RF 36. The affect on 35 appears negligible as compared to the rest of the band and 36 is only slightly impaired. I consider this a pass and can't wait to bring it to Seattle where we have LOS to a T-Mobile site about 0.8 miles away, about 10 degrees off the path to Queen Anne & Capitol Hill (and those DTV sites are moderately obstructed and 44 miles distant).


----------



## Falcon_77

Here's an update on my VHF bowtie. I shortened each whisker to 71.5cm and it's looking very good. I now have a design I can use in WA that's way easier to deal with than the quad or even the Yagi I have up there now that doesn't fit well.

The trouble is I can't remember where I bought these 6' 1mm radius wires. I bought them for antenna projects over 10 years ago. Maybe a big box store has them, but I'm open to suggestions. Anyone have a good source that can ship to WA in case I strike out at local stores?

Here's a pic of the V-Bow and results. I see no need to put the Stellar or quad back up here. This is w/o the attenuator.

Edit: I really need to figure our camera rotation or not take any portrait pictures. I even tried pre-rotating and re-posting, but it didn't matter. Apologies.


----------



## hdtvluvr

Well, 1mm radius is 2mm diameter which is 1/16". You didn't specify type of metal but this supplier has brass rods 1/16 X 72" for $1.45 each. Part # 4745

Brass round bar


----------



## lifespeed

Brass is lossy, use copper or aluminum.


----------



## hdtvluvr

OK,

Copper Part #: 8192 10.08 each

Aluminum Part #: 21565 2.66 each BUT 0.1875" (3/16) diameter


----------



## Falcon_77

Great. Thanks, guys. I found one on there with a ~3.2mm diameter (.125") so that should work well, in aluminum.

Edit: Would I gain much if I use copper instead?


----------



## rabbit73

*Pictures Rotate When Uploaded*



Falcon_77 said:


> Here's an update on my VHF bowtie. I shortened each whisker to 71.5cm and it's looking very good. I now have a design I can use in WA that's way easier to deal with than the quad or even the Yagi I have up there now that doesn't fit well.


Good


> Edit: I really need to figure our camera rotation or not take any portrait pictures. I even tried pre-rotating and re-posting, but it didn't matter. Apologies.


That can be difficult to deal with; the solution varies. The first time I saw that problem was on the Canadian forum on lenlab's thread:
https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/18...287147-converting-uhf-yagi-vhf-antenna-4.html

Post by moderator Dr. Dave:
https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/18...rting-uhf-yagi-vhf-antenna-3.html#post3084283



> The photo is actually stored that way on your phone and there is an Exif Orientation tag that specifies how the photo should be rotated when displayed. I did a test of a portrait photo and the forum software seem to ignore the Exif Orientation tag.
> 
> The solution is to edit the photo before you upload it and make a minor change, such as rotate sideways and back. The edit software should then save the image in the correct orientation when you save a copy.


 This was the solution by Dr. Dave:
https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/18...rting-uhf-yagi-vhf-antenna-4.html#post3084347



> @lenlab Here's what I did on Windows 10. Right-clicking on a file and showing detailed properties doesn't show the orientation, so I changed the folder settings where I had my picture to view details and display orientation. This wasn't absolutely necessary, but makes it easy to see what's happening. My portrait photos say "rotate 270 degrees."
> 1. Open a photo in "Photos" (the default for Windows 10)
> 2. Don't choose rotate there, since that won't change the file. Click "Edit."
> 3. Click "Crop and Rotate."
> 4. Click Rotate 4 times until the pic is upright again and click "Done."
> 5. Click "Save a Copy." The orientation for the new file says "normal" in Windows Explorer.
> Some more-sophisticated software may handle the orientation tag differently.


Google search:
picture rotates when uploaded
Why Your Photos Don’t Always Appear Correctly Rotated
https://www.howtogeek.com/254830/why-your-photos-dont-always-appear-correctly-rotated/

What I did for Falcon_77 photo:
1. downloaded photo
2. turned it upright
3. made a copy, which was version 2
4. opened version 2 in paint
5. rotatated it 4 times, 90 degrees each time, back to upright
6. resized and saved as version 3; I hope it stays upright


----------



## Falcon_77

rabbit73 said:


> What I did for Falcon_77 photo:
> 1. downloaded photo
> 2. turned it upright
> 3. made a copy, which was version 2
> 4. opened version 2 in paint
> 5. rotatated it 4 times, 90 degrees each time, back to upright
> 6. resized and saved as version 3; I hope it stays upright


Much better. Thanks, rabbit.

This one is working well, but now I'm considering a 2-bay version.


----------



## rabbit73

Falcon_77 said:


> I think this is about as good as we can hope for with a $20 filter. I am very pleased with your results as well. I want to ask and maybe I can figure it out, as to how you did a gain graph on the nanoVNA. I haven't seen that one yet, but truth be told, I still have much to learn about the device.


 I thought that tustinfarm would see your question and answer you.

I don't have a VNA, but my guess is that you have to use both ports of the VNA for an S21 gain measurement with the CH0 port connected to the input of the filter and the output of the filter connected to the CH1 port. Of course, you will have to do a calibration which will include a through connection between the ports before the measurement. You can turn off the Smith chart to reduce the display clutter. Any further details will have to come from someone smarter than I am.


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


>



That ripple is often caused by high SWR on the output or input of the analyzer. My spectrum analyzer has this problem when using the built-in tracking generator. The only way I know to fix it is to use a 6-10 dB attenuator at the end of each piece of coax used to connect to the device under test. This smooths out the impedance mismatch. Connections would be like this for calibration:

Analyzer Output - Coax - Attenuator - Barrel Connector - Attenuator - Coax - Analyzer Input

Then for test:

Analyzer Output - Coax - Attenuator - Device Under Test - Attenuator - Coax - Analyzer Input


----------



## rabbit73

Thank you for the confirmation. 

*Improve S21 Flatness Measurements*
https://www.analog.com/en/technical-articles/improve-s21-flatness-measurements.html#

I'm tempted to buy a NanoVNA, but so many are clones with poor build quality, I don't know what source to trust. A Utuber recommended the one with the white front panel. His friend bought one, but in the next video he showed that it was defective. The touch screen didn't work, so it was difficult to make a measurement. 

*Electronics - Yet another bad nanoVNA (potential good source link in description)

*



*
*
Another report of a defective NanoVNA:
*Ham Rado - Chameleon whips update. Also a bad nanoVNA*


----------



## tustinfarm

rabbit73 said:


> I thought that tustinfarm would see your question and answer you.
> 
> I don't have a VNA, but my guess is that you have to use both ports of the VNA for an S21 gain measurement with the CH0 port connected to the input of the filter and the output of the filter connected to the CH1 port. Of course, you will have to do a calibration which will include a through connection between the ports before the measurement. You can turn off the Smith chart to reduce the display clutter. Any further details will have to come from someone smarter than I am.


Rabbit73,

Sorry for the delay in responding, I got sidetracked with more rooftop TV antenna experiments, and after installing the new filter inline after the 91XG and prior to the preamp I am _very __happy _with it so far. It has not had any negative impact on RF36, as expected based on my earlier indoor pre-testing.

Indeed the two ports on the nanoVNA are what I used for the S21 gain plots - and thanks for adding those captions to the plots when you quoted me, I really like that. I also should mention that the ripple pattern in the wider frequency plot was due to the 6-8 feet of coax I had in line with the filter - I was in such a hurry I just grabbed what I had handy. The second plot over a narrower frequency range was after I had regained some patience and found a proper F-connector union to make more measurements. Despite the impedance mismatch of the analyzer/filter, I believe with some time and care in the calibration I will be able to get a flat S21 plot showing the true insertion loss for filters like these.


----------



## tustinfarm

rabbit73 said:


> Thank you for the confirmation.
> 
> I'm tempted to buy a NanoVNA, but so many are clones with poor build quality, I don't know what source to trust.


While there are definitely some duds out there, keep in mind the folks who got good ones are less likely to post videos, so it may make it seem worse than it is. After I got my first one and began to comprehend what a VNA can do, and how amazing the nanoVNA value was, I rushed to buy a second, somehow feeling like it was just too good to be true. My second one (from a different seller) also proved to be fine.

My advice is to buy one from a seller with some form of a return guarantee, or a mechanism where you can dispute credit card charge if needed. The safest approach might be to buy one through Amazon. Even though you would be paying perhaps $30 more than a seller in China, you wouldn't have to wait several weeks, and Amazon has a good record (in my experience) for dealing with defective items.


----------



## Prototype3a

Looks like Falcon_77 has the same massive VHF-hi Yagi that I've been fighting with the past few days.

My issue is that I'm trying to pick up a weak signal in a sea of strong ones. I found that I could get it with the antenna in the yard but not on the roof of the house. So my theory has been that the house is shielding the antenna from all the "noise" from the stronger stations in the other direction.

Though, recently my problems seem to be a result of the distance between the antenna and the wall of the house. That's when it hit me that we have foil faced foam insulation behind the siding and I'm betting it is acting like a massive reflector for the antenna.

My idea for the next experiment is to move the antenna out from the wall either 1/2 wavelength or full wavelength from the wall of the house and see if the signal improves. However, the signal of interest is at ~40degrees off the normal of the house wall so I'm not sure if I should measure from the reflector on the antenna straight back to the wall along the axis of the spar or something else.

I've also thought about removing the reflector off the back and just trying to back the antenna up the wall.


----------



## Calaveras

Prototype3a said:


> Looks like Falcon_77 has the same massive VHF-hi Yagi that I've been fighting with the past few days.
> 
> My issue is that I'm trying to pick up a weak signal in a sea of strong ones.



Can you post a link to your Rabbitears report that includes the weak station? It could be that the weak station is adjacent to a strong one and is causing the problem. If the strong one is more than 33 dB stronger than the weak one then reception of the weak one is probably not possible or very difficult.

I had the very strong KUVS on channel 18 and the weak KOFY on channel 19. See attached image. Using a pair of XG91s I was able to place KUVS in a sharp null to receive KOFY. When KUVS was not exactly in the null, it was 46 dB stronger than KOFY. KOFY could not be received.


----------



## Falcon_77

Calaveras said:


> Can you post a link to your Rabbitears report that includes the weak station? It could be that the weak station is adjacent to a strong one and is causing the problem.


I would like to see that report as well. I have more problems with co-channels than adjacents. I have a hard time pulling 8 and 10 from San Diego, not just because they are so weak, but we also have low powers on 8 and 10 in the LA area. And it's amazing how even a flea-power co-channel can wipe the desired channel.

And thanks, rabbit. tustinfarm did respond to me in a PM, but thank you.

I haven't built my 2-bay Hi-V design yet as I ran out of gas over the weekend (my body with other projects - not my car).

Here's the link to my SoCal results. And this is w/o tropo. I frequently get KPMR from Santa Barbara, courtesy of a LM guard channel leaving it open in the LA area.

https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=84207


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> My issue is that I'm trying to pick up a weak signal in a sea of strong ones. I found that I could get it with the antenna in the yard but not on the roof of the house. So my theory has been that the house is shielding the antenna from all the "noise" from the stronger stations in the other direction.


Hello, Prototype3a.

What is the callsign of the weak signal?

You can do a signal report here:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php

It should look something like this:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=84216


----------



## Prototype3a

I don't see how this is relevant to my question but here is the link. The channel I'm after is WSWP.

https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=67138

I suspect the "noise" I'm blocking with the house is WSET 13 (RF7) out of Lynchburg.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> I don't see how this is relevant to my question but here is the link. The channel I'm after is WSWP.
> 
> https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=67138
> 
> I suspect the "noise" I'm blocking with the house is WSET 13 (RF7) out of Lynchburg.


Thank you for the report and the additional information. The more you tell us, the better we are able to help you, which is why a report is requested in the sticky:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...all-ota-threads-rabbitears-info-1st-post.html

More recent report for the same location:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=84216










WSET isn't scheduled to move to 7 until phase 10, 5/2/2020 to 7/3/2020. Have they already moved?
https://www.rabbitears.info/repackc...state=&mktid=82&owner=&sort=&ph=&lss=&status=

WSWP is also scheduled to move to 8 during phase 10.
https://www.rabbitears.info/repackc...tate=&mktid=188&owner=&sort=&ph=&lss=&status=

If they both have already moved, then they are adjacent channels. But, WSET is only about 16 dB stronger than WSWP and in a different direction, 72.4 deg.

When your VHF antenna was on the roof was the signal path from WSWP (327.9 deg) blocked by a tree?

Do you also have a UHF antenna? How are you combining the UHF antenna with the VHF antenna?

When you were making the tests with the VHF antenna, was it combined or separate?

Are you using a preamp?

It is possible that WSWP is weaker than it will be if they are doing antenna work for the new channel.

If you want PBS, have you considered WBRA instead? WSWP is very weak and blocked by terrain.


----------



## Prototype3a

I'm after WSWP because they do not air the same programming as WBRA. In fact, I think WBRA has some sort of special hatred of some of our favorite shows. I also have a 91xg clone in the closet that I want to try pointing at WUNL (also PBS) as they still air The Woodwright's Shop reruns where it seems all the other channels have dropped it.

My experience has been that with strong signals and big antennas that antenna pointing doesn't really matter. I can get *most* of the Roanoke channels off the big VHF with it pointed in almost any direction when I have it up on the roof. 

I've been trying to shoot between trees as much as possible as I suspect that the high moisture content of the maple trees in our yard looks opaque to VHF. So, I was very confused when I could not get ch9 with the big VHF up on the roof, pointed in the right direction and shooting very nicely between the two trees. However, I could get it with the antenna on the ground, under the tree and with the antenna on a temporary mount on the side of the house. 

I've tested with and without an Antennas Direct UHF-VHF combiner. The insertion loss of this unit seems to be very low.

I've been meaning to try to determine which channel WSWP and WSET are actually on. I actually thought the phase 10 transition had already occurred. The HDHR reports WSWP as 195MHz and WSET as 213MHz. So, I guess you're right and they're on RF10 and RF13 for now.

The long term plan is to combine the big VHF with a 42xg clone that I have pointed at WLFB and WVVA out of WV. Previous to a very recent change to my system, I could not get WWCW out of Lynchburg reliably so the accidental discovery that I could get Laff on WLFB fairly easily was nice.

To be clear, I can receive WSWP but it seems that the precise positioning of the antenna is critical and so I'm trying to better understand the factors that impact that and if there are modifications to the big antenna that I could make to improve the performance or simply make it more forgiving. One thing I had thought about was to add more or larger reflector rods to help it to reject unwanted signals.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> I actually thought the phase 10 transition had already occurred. The HDHR reports WSWP as 195MHz and WSET as 213MHz.


Then WSWP is still on 10; center channel is 195 MHz. WSET is still on 13; center channel is 213 MHz.










The HDHR GUI will give you signal strength, signal quality, and symbol quality which are very useful when solving reception problems.


----------



## Prototype3a

rabbit73 said:


> Then WSWP is still on 10; center channel is 195 MHz. WSET is still on 13; center channel is 195 MHz.
> 
> 
> The HDHR GUI will give you signal strength, signal quality, and symbol quality which are very useful when solving reception problems.


I forgot to say that I've been running the two WV antennas without an amp and focusing on getting a clean signal first. If I need an amp after I have a clean signal, I may add one. I was looking at the Kitztech low noise unit but I'm not sure if it is too much gain.

The HDHRs have been a decent tool but I know our TCL Roku TV has a more sensitive tuner than the HDHR and I suspect this is due to the fact that the HDHR has a 4 way splitter in the input stage. The TV is just a pain to use as a tool since I can't view the status on my phone while holding the antenna.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> I forgot to say that I've been running the two WV antennas without an amp and focusing on getting a clean signal first. If I need an amp after I have a clean signal, I may add one. I was looking at the Kitztech low noise unit but I'm not sure if it is too much gain.


If the KT-200 was only used for VHF and UHF was blocked by a UVSJ, it would help with WV.



> The HDHRs have been a decent tool but I know our TCL Roku TV has a more sensitive tuner than the HDHR and I suspect this is due to the fact that the HDHR has a 4 way splitter in the input stage. The TV is just a pain to use as a tool since I can't view the status on my phone while holding the antenna.


Yeah, that's why I got the 2-tuner model.

Maybe WiFi could send images to your phone.

My marginal channel 9; 50% signal quality is the minimum necessary for a lock. Symbol quality should be 100%:


----------



## Calaveras

Prototype3a said:


> I suspect this is due to the fact that the HDHR has a 4 way splitter in the input stage.



Does anyone know for sure if this is true? Usually these multi-tuner devices use an amplified splitter with near unity gain to overcome the normal splitter loss. It would be poor engineering practice to do otherwise.


----------



## Prototype3a

Calaveras said:


> Does anyone know for sure if this is true? Usually these multi-tuner devices use an amplified splitter with near unity gain to overcome the normal splitter loss. It would be poor engineering practice to do otherwise.


In the kickstarter for the ATSC3 quattro, they have a photo with the can off the board and it looks like it just has traces running into 4 tuner chips.

I have a lot of expensive and fancy toys but not so much RF or EE toys. I always wondered if they were some how using a single multifrequency tuner chip or some other sort of tuning magic until I saw that photo under the can the other day.


----------



## rabbit73

Calaveras said:


> Does anyone know for sure if this is true? Usually these multi-tuner devices use an amplified splitter with near unity gain to overcome the normal splitter loss. It would be poor engineering practice to do otherwise.


 I don't know of anyone who has actually tested it.

It would be poor engineering practice, but it's good marketing to have 4 tuners. More is always better, isn't it?

The tuner in my 2-tuner gray HDHR4-2US is at least as sensitive as my 32" SONY, and on some marginal channels it beats it.


----------



## Prototype3a

FWIW, on the temporary mount on Friday, I had 50% strength, 53% signal quality and symbol quality was bouncing around a bit but would sit at 100% most of the time. I suspect that cars going down the street or some other phenomona was causing the drops in quality.


also, I'm glad I screenshotted that to prove I didn't hallucinate the whole thing.


Today, I'm working on a better adjustable mount so I can play with the exact positioning of the antenna more easily.


----------



## Calaveras

Prototype3a said:


> To be clear, I can receive WSWP but it seems that the precise positioning of the antenna is critical and so I'm trying to better understand the factors that impact that and if there are modifications to the big antenna that I could make to improve the performance or simply make it more forgiving. One thing I had thought about was to add more or larger reflector rods to help it to reject unwanted signals.



If the antenna position is critical you're likely dealing with multipath. Adding more reflector elements isn't going to do anything. Without modeling the changes you have no idea what those elements might do. You're more likely to make the performance worse than better. 

I'm betting that the signal quality is low even with the antenna positioned so that WSWP will decode.


----------



## Calaveras

Prototype3a said:


> FWIW, on the temporary mount on Friday, I had 50% strength, 53% signal quality and symbol quality was bouncing around a bit but would sit at 100% most of the time. I suspect that cars going down the street or some other phenomona was causing the drops in quality.



Symbol Quality is always 100% unless there are uncorrected errors so it's pretty much an unhelpful number. If Symbol Quality is


----------



## Calaveras

Prototype3a said:


> In the kickstarter for the ATSC3 quattro, they have a photo with the can off the board and it looks like it just has traces running into 4 tuner chips.


They're using an amp. I put a red dot on the amplifier chip. See attachment.


----------



## Prototype3a

I stand corrected. I missed that little ... SOT23? chip when I was looking at it last.

I wonder what is on the other side of the board under that pile of vias. I wonder if that chip above it is an ethernet transciever... I've always heard that board design for them is a pain but that one just looks kind of slapped on there near the port.


----------



## Prototype3a

Well, moving the antenna down the wall seems to have helped my signal. Up high it was getting the same ~47% strength but no quality. Now it is around 50/50 but no symbol quality.

I think I might try spacing it half wavelength from the wall and see what that does.

Though based on what you were saying earlier, maybe I just need more raw signal and maybe I should feed it into my distribution amp and see what that does. 

On the other, other hand, 7pm is quickly approaching and with that, scheduled recordings.


edit: Adjusting the antenna ~1/2 wavelength from the foil faced foam insulation got my signal back to where it was with the temporary mount. I'm guessing with the temporary mount that I accidentally had it ~1 full wavelength from the wall.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> In the kickstarter for the ATSC3 quattro, they have a photo with the can off the board and it looks like it just has traces running into 4 tuner chips.


 A closer look:


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> FWIW, on the temporary mount on Friday, I had 50% strength, 53% signal quality and symbol quality was bouncing around a bit but would sit at 100% most of the time. I suspect that cars going down the street or some other phenomona was causing the drops in quality.


Signal Quality is SNR; it must be 50% (~15.2 dB) or more for a lock.
Symbol Quality is the inverse of Uncorrected Errors; 100% = NO Uncorrected Errors.

The FEC (Forward Error Correction) is able to correct a limited number of errors. Once that limit is exceeded, you will have Uncorrected Errors and a Symbol Quality of less than 100%. As Calaveras stated, a low SNR will increase errors, and so will multipath and increased electrical noise interference on VHF.

The sudden loss of signal at the "Digital Cliff" is caused by the FEC. If it weren't for the FEC, there would be a gradual deterioration of PQ as the errors increased, which would be even more annoying than the pixilation, picture freeze, and dropout at the cliff.


----------



## MBrown2020

Calaveras said:


> Does anyone know for sure if this is true? Usually these multi-tuner devices use an amplified splitter with near unity gain to overcome the normal splitter loss. It would be poor engineering practice to do otherwise.



I know they have a LNA. From Silicon Dust forums:


Link: https://forum.silicondust.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=113&t=73359



nickk Silicondust*Posts:* 15801*Joined:* Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:39 am *Re: HDHomeRun Duo & Quatro: Internal Preamps?*




 Post  by *nickk* » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:36 pm 
Hi,

Confirming, the HDHomeRun DUO and QUATRO both feature a low noise amplifier (LNA) in the RF input stage.

Nick


----------



## dr1394

rabbit73 said:


> A closer look:


Cool. You can see "Sony" on the demodulator chips.


----------



## rabbit73

dr1394 said:


> Cool. You can see "Sony" on the demodulator chips.


 You are correct; an even closer look:


----------



## Falcon_77

Prototype3a said:


> Though based on what you were saying earlier, maybe I just need more raw signal and maybe I should feed it into my distribution amp and see what that does.


I strongly suggest a mast mounted pre-amp over a distribution amp in your case, but just for Hi-V. I used one of these for San Diego's 8 and 10 and it made a big difference for me (though co-channel was still an issue). I don't see any Hi-V co-channel issues for you. I recognize you want a clean signal, but putting the amp at the antenna is the best bet to ensure as little noise as possible is amplified.

A trick I do is only amplifying the band I want and not all of them at once. So, put the Hi-V into a band-pass filter to not pass as much outside or below the band. You have a strong Lo-V channel in WBRA and that can easily make amps unhappy. You have some strong U's as well, which can be just as big an issue. If you feed everything into a distribution amp, things can and will get ugly.

A pre-amp focused on Hi-V is your best bet. You can bypass amplifying the other bands and combine them after that.


----------



## Falcon_77

Well, my 2-bay VHF bowtie isn't doing any better than the 1-bay. It's a little better on 11 & 13 same on 12 and worse on 7 and 9.

I have a theory that multi-bay bowties in attics may not be the best idea. Considering the hot-spots an attic can have, if one bay is in a hot and another is in a cold, it will imbalance things (especially with the furnace on the back-side). So, as space is even more cramped in our 2nd home's attic, I'm going to try the 1-bay when I get the chance to go back North.

Thoughts?

A couple pics and some results follow:


----------



## Prototype3a

My experience is that trying to do ANYTHING VHF in an attic is just foolish because I'm fairly certain the array of nails holding shingles on really messes with the signals. At our house, I got FAR more signal by moving the antenna outside but I was after WBRA RF3 at the time so longest wavelength in the TV spectrum.

Does anyone have a source on these single channel filters? I was googling around a bit and couldn't really find anything.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> My experience is that trying to do ANYTHING VHF in an attic is just foolish because I'm fairly certain the array of nails holding shingles on really messes with the signals. At our house, I got FAR more signal by moving the antenna outside but I was after WBRA RF3 at the time so longest wavelength in the TV spectrum.
> 
> Does anyone have a source on these single channel filters? I was googling around a bit and couldn't really find anything.


 What single channel filters, and for what channel?
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=67138

https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=84216


----------



## Falcon_77

Prototype3a said:


> My experience is that trying to do ANYTHING VHF in an attic is just foolish because I'm fairly certain the array of nails holding shingles on really messes with the signals. At our house, I got FAR more signal by moving the antenna outside but I was after WBRA RF3 at the time so longest wavelength in the TV spectrum.
> 
> Does anyone have a source on these single channel filters? I was googling around a bit and couldn't really find anything.


Oh, I couldn't agree with you more. VHF is terrible in attics for a number of reasons, but noise and metal and wires and cables are the main reasons. But, it's fun to try and isn't as likely to bring a lynch mob to my door in suburbia.

Here's where I got my Band III VHF bandpass filter, but I only see his combo filters up right now. I asked him about the Band III (Hi-V) one I got in September.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VHF-UHF-band-pass-filter-174-214-470-700MHz-special-it-limits-Ham-and-Pagers/124119633797?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D8764d7fcc8794997aaf1bdfd48df3eed%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D124119633797%26itm%3D124119633797%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A8b2d258c-8a2b-11ea-9262-74dbd180c387%7Cparentrq%3Ac67d1f821710a9cc6bad0c63ffc5dce8%7Ciid%3A1

A single channel is probably even a better idea, but could be costly and you will to wait until they move to 8. Would probably need to go to someone like a PAR or a Tin Lee for that.

Edit: Here is a pic of the Band III filter he sold me last fall. It didn't sufficiently take out the WX station, but I got a notch for that. Overall, it is still very effective at taking out a load of junk.

A cheaper filter would be something like a HLSJ and UVSJ combo, though sadly, those can be hard to find these days and aren't quite as effective.


----------



## Prototype3a

I don't care what other people think of my antennas. It is my property and I will do as I please. If they don't like looking at them, they're more than welcome to move somewhere else.


Huh. HLSJ is a new one to me. Unless I can find some sort of reasonably priced and single channel filter, I don't think I'll bother. Given the seeming rarity of most of the "fun" RF parts, I'm betting what I'm looking for is no longer made.

Reality is that I would need to buy two or just wait for #10 transition and then install a filter to bandpass RF8.


----------



## Calaveras

Prototype3a said:


> Unless I can find some sort of reasonably priced and single channel filter, I don't think I'll bother. Given the seeming rarity of most of the "fun" RF parts, I'm betting what I'm looking for is no longer made.
> 
> Reality is that I would need to buy two or just wait for #10 transition and then install a filter to bandpass RF8.



I'm having a bit of a hard time determining what you want a single channel for but I think it's for RF8 which is weak and in a different direction using a separate antenna. Have tried Jan Jenca?

http://www.antenne-komponenty.eu/english/main/product/zlucovace.html

Best prices for custom components and reasonable delivery.


----------



## rabbit73

Calaveras said:


> I'm having a bit of a hard time determining what you want a single channel for but I think it's for RF8 which is weak and in a different direction using a separate antenna. Have tried Jan Jenca?


It's complicated.

He wants WSWP which is moving from 10 to 8:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=71680#station

WSET is moving from 13 to 7, which creates an adjacent channel problem.
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=73988#station

I'm not 100% convinced it will be a problem because WSET is in a different direction and only about 16 dB stronger.
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=84216

I suggested the much stronger WBRA for PBS instead, but he likes WSWP better.

A high-performance adjacent channel filter is expensive.
http://www.tinlee.com/bandpass_filters.php?active=1

http://www.tinlee.com/bandpass_filters.php?active=1#CFAL

http://www.tinlee.com/Graph_CFAL_8_59_T10_1618.php#graph3


----------



## lastplace

4228 in the attic, single story house. All channels are 27 miles away, 279 deg on an antenna farm. 2 of the channels just started dropping out. I assume leaves or something like that. Why only 2?


----------



## Calaveras

lastplace said:


> 4228 in the attic, single story house. All channels are 27 miles away, 279 deg on an antenna farm. 2 of the channels just started dropping out. I assume leaves or something like that. Why only 2?


We would need a lot more info about your setup and the channels to take an educated guess. I don't suppose you're using the 4228 on VHF?


----------



## rabbit73

lastplace said:


> 4228 in the attic, single story house. All channels are 27 miles away, 279 deg on an antenna farm. 2 of the channels just started dropping out. I assume leaves or something like that. Why only 2?


Hello, lastplace.

Which 2 channels by callsign?

Please do a signal report as requested in the sticky:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...all-ota-threads-rabbitears-info-1st-post.html

You can do a report here:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> It's complicated.
> 
> He wants WSWP which is moving from 10 to 8:
> https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=71680#station
> 
> WSET is moving from 13 to 7, which creates an adjacent channel problem.
> https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=73988#station
> 
> I'm not 100% convinced it will be a problem because WSET is in a different direction and only about 16 dB stronger.
> https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=84216



I see no need at all for a channel 8 filter. They can't interfere with each other. Even if one was much stronger the filter wouldn't work because of the out-of-band energy from the strong adjacent channel. No filter can take of in-band signal.

The purpose I think of attm is for combining a single channel from a separate antenna pointed in some other direction.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a thinks he needs it. I think he should wait until Repack Phase 10 is completed to see if it is necessary. I get the idea that his VHF antenna will be aimed at the weak PBS signal and have a preamp. I'm not certain that CH8 weak signal can tolerate the insertion loss of the filter.


----------



## rabbit73

lastplace said:


> 4228 in the attic, single story house. All channels are 27 miles away, 279 deg on an antenna farm. 2 of the channels just started dropping out. I assume leaves or something like that. Why only 2?


 27 miles and 279 degrees would put you near Princess Anne. OK, here is my guess at your report:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=85150


Which 2 channels?


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> Huh. HLSJ is a new one to me. Unless I can find some sort of reasonably priced and single channel filter, I don't think I'll bother. Given the seeming rarity of most of the "fun" RF parts, I'm betting what I'm looking for is no longer made.
> 
> Reality is that I would need to buy two or just wait for #10 transition and then install a filter to bandpass RF8.


The UVSJ would be used to keep the stronger UHF signals out of the preamp used for VHF.

The HLSJ (VHF-High/VHF-Low Separator-Joiner) would be used to keep CH3 and FM out of the preamp used for VHF-High, if necessary.


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> Prototype3a thinks he needs it. I think he should wait until Repack Phase 10 is completed to see if it is necessary. I get the idea that his VHF antenna will be aimed at the weak PBS signal and have a preamp. I'm not certain that CH8 weak signal can tolerate the insertion loss of the filter.



The reason a strong signal precludes reception of a weak adjacent one is that the transmitter mask filter only attenuates out-of-band energy by about 40 dB in most cases. Even if a perfect single channel filter existed, it can't eliminate energy from the strong adjacent that falls in the edge of the weak channel. 

My attached image shows the very strong KUVS next to the weak KOFY. The magenta trace shows KUVS placed in a sharp antenna null. You can see the low end of KOFY looks much better with KUVS nulled than it does when KUVS comes through at full strength as shown in the yellow trace. No filter will get rid of the signal from KUVS that appears in the low end of KOFY. 

The second image shows KUVS with the antennas pointed at it. The steep slope shows the mask filter which is good for 40 dB. Below that energy leaks around the edge of the filter into adjacent channels.


----------



## lastplace

I was incorrect 270 deg, N Great Neck area. The channels breaking up are.

NBC WAVY 10.1. RF. 19

ABC WVEC 13.1. RF 13, moving to RF 11. 5-1. Worst offender. 

4228 single story house. 2 300/75 Pigtails attached to antenna. Only 2 TVs both have the same issues.


----------



## rabbit73

Calaveras said:


> The reason a strong signal precludes reception of a weak adjacent one is that the transmitter mask filter only attenuates out-of-band energy by about 40 dB in most cases. Even if a perfect single channel filter existed, it can't eliminate energy from the strong adjacent that falls in the edge of the weak channel.
> 
> My attached image shows the very strong KUVS next to the weak KOFY. The magenta trace shows KUVS placed in a sharp antenna null. You can see the low end of KOFY looks much better with KUVS nulled than it does when KUVS comes through at full strength as shown in the yellow trace. No filter will get rid of the signal from KUVS that appears in the low end of KOFY.
> 
> The second image shows KUVS with the antennas pointed at it. The steep slope shows the mask filter which is good for 40 dB. Below that energy leaks around the edge of the filter into adjacent channels.


 Thank you for the interesting images that show the extent of the spill over from the strong signal into the weak signal channel. It's proof of why a weak signal isn't able to tolerate an adjacent signal that is more than 33 dB stronger as defined by the ATSC standard. 

ATSC Recommended Practice:
Receiver Performance Guidelines
Document A/74:2010, 7 April 2010

RECEIVER PERFORMANCE GUIDELINES

5.4.2 Adjacent Channel Rejection

The receiver should meet or exceed the thresholds given in Table 5.2 for rejection of first
adjacent-channel interference at the desired signal levels shown above the columns therein.










I think that *Prototype3a *will need to make some tests after WSWP moves to RF channel 8.


----------



## rabbit73

lastplace said:


> I was incorrect 270 deg, N Great Neck area. The channels breaking up are.
> 
> NBC WAVY 10.1. RF. 19
> 
> ABC WVEC 13.1. RF 13, moving to RF 11. 5-1. Worst offender.
> 
> 4228 single story house. 2 300/75 Pigtails attached to antenna. Only 2 TVs both have the same issues.


OK, this is 27/270; it would have been a lot easier if you had given us a report as required in the sticky:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...all-ota-threads-rabbitears-info-1st-post.html

https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=85202

It is the real channel number (also called physical channel or RF channel) that determines what antenna is needed.

VHF-Low, real channels 2-6
VHF-High, real channels 7-13
UHF, real channels 14-51; soon to be 14 to 36

The virtual channel number (like 5.1 or 5-1) is a holdover from the analog TV days to maintain the identity of the station, and is what the TV displays. By convention, the virtual channel number is given in the decimal form to keep it from being confused with the real channel number.

WVEC is on a VHF-High channel. Your antenna is primarily for UHF channels; it's not very good for VHF channels. Which 4228 do you have, the original 4228 or the more recent 4228HD?

WVEC might be running at reduced power because of work on the new antenna.

I don't know why you are having trouble with WAVY. I don't know your exact location, so my guess is that there is something in the signal path blocking the signal.


----------



## Prototype3a

FWIW, I have a Kitztech amp on order. I think the last time I ordered one it took a few weeks to show up...

I'm also thinking that I may need to do something once the transition occurs but it is anyone's guess what that will be.


Today I discovered that I didn't aim the UHF that the big VHF is combined with correctly. So, I need to re-aim that once the rain stops and then re-evaluate. When I checked the signals the other day, it seemed like adding the amp after the combiner might be the way to go as the two UHF channels could use a little boost.


----------



## Falcon_77

rabbit73 said:


> The UVSJ would be used to keep the stronger UHF signals out of the preamp used for VHF.
> 
> The HLSJ (VHF-High/VHF-Low Separator-Joiner) would be used to keep CH3 and FM out of the preamp used for VHF-High, if necessary.


Yes, indeed, rabbit. That's what I was thinking and keeping strong signals out of a pre-amp, like my old (now vintage) Titan is key. It's why I got another LTE filter now that strong signals moved down again. It's also why I got the BIII filter and the WX notch filter. So many things can cause a ruckus... and the FM trap in the Titan can't get most of it anymore.

Also, Jan Jenca put back up the Band III (Hi-V) filter. I just grabbed another one from him.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124161669938


----------



## Falcon_77

rabbit73 said:


> He wants WSWP which is moving from 10 to 8:
> 
> WSET is moving from 13 to 7, which creates an adjacent channel problem.
> I'm not 100% convinced it will be a problem because WSET is in a different direction and only about 16 dB stronger.


I also doubt 7 will be an issue after the repack. It's about 20dB stronger, but it's 100° off angle. It should be easy to null it out even if it is a problem somehow.

Edit: This makes me want to experiment with 8 & 10 from San Diego again. LA has 5 full power Hi-V stations and those all come in well. LD 8 from LA is nulled in my direction to protect San Diego as-is LD10 from LA. I just need a pre-amp here in SoCal again. The Titan is in WA. I will see what I can come up with.


----------



## rabbit73

lastplace said:


> I was incorrect 270 deg, N Great Neck area. The channels breaking up are.
> 
> NBC WAVY 10.1. RF. 19
> 
> ABC WVEC 13.1. RF 13, moving to RF 11. 5-1. Worst offender.
> 
> 4228 single story house. 2 300/75 Pigtails attached to antenna. Only 2 TVs both have the same issues.


WVEC is now on RF 11


----------



## rabbit73

Falcon_77 said:


> Well, my 2-bay VHF bowtie isn't doing any better than the 1-bay. It's a little better on 11 & 13 same on 12 and worse on 7 and 9.
> 
> I have a theory that multi-bay bowties in attics may not be the best idea. Considering the hot-spots an attic can have, if one bay is in a hot and another is in a cold, it will imbalance things (especially with the furnace on the back-side). So, as space is even more cramped in our 2nd home's attic, I'm going to try the 1-bay when I get the chance to go back North.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> A couple pics and some results follow:


Yes, there will be hot an cold spots in the attic. The location can make more difference than an antenna with more gain.

That's a really nice display of your Hi-VHF channels.

What hardware and software did you use?


----------



## Falcon_77

rabbit73 said:


> That's a really nice display of your Hi-VHF channels.
> 
> What hardware and software did you use?


Thanks. Yes, it's very handy when I want to look at the big picture for an entire band and actually I can run it for all the DTV bands at once (it goes up to about 1.7GHz).

It's the Airspy R2 with the SpectrumSpy software (by SDRSharp).

https://airspy.com/airspy-r2/


----------



## rabbit73

Falcon_77 said:


> Thanks. Yes, it's very handy when I want to look at the big picture for an entire band and actually I can run it for all the DTV bands at once (it goes up to about 1.7GHz).
> 
> It's the Airspy R2 with the SpectrumSpy software (by SDRSharp).
> 
> https://airspy.com/airspy-r2/


 Thank you.


Now I'm tempted to buy my 3rd SDR.


----------



## Falcon_77

rabbit73 said:


> Now I'm tempted to buy my 3rd SDR.


See if this helps. 

The first pic is with my DTV system with the 600MHz CM LTE filter. The 2nd pic is with my discone system (w/o the filter). A striking difference! Edit: Ok, I know this begs the question. Time to do another round on the DTV system with and w/o the filter. 

I don't really need the LTE filter here yet as those signals aren't strong here, so I will take it to WA next time I can get up there.

Unfortunately, I haven't found another SDR that I own which works with SpectrumSpy, so the R2 is gold to me, but dang, I forgot how expensive it was...

Edit 2: I added the DTV waterfall with the CM-3021 filter and w/o the CM-3201 filter. The discone does better on the higher frequencies and the nearest LTE towers (about half a mile away) are off angle or obstructed.


----------



## Prototype3a

24dB Kitztech amp showed up today and it did not help at all. :-/


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> Kitztech amp showed up today and it did not help at all. :-/


Sorry to hear that. Any signal at all from WSWP?

Has it moved to 8?

Did you use the preamp for VHF only, or for UHF and VHF?


----------



## Prototype3a

I tried it on the VHF before the combiner and after the combiner. I think it might just be too much gain as the HDHR could not tune anything. I only had maybe 10min to play before recordings started at 7pm. 

I'm going to e-mail Kitztech and ask if SMT components can be replaced to reduce the gain. If they don't respond I may get some friends to help me reverse engineer it.


Edit: They say it is "impossible". So, I'm guessing that it is possible but they don't want to say how.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> I tried it on the VHF before the combiner and after the combiner. I think it might just be too much gain as the HDHR could not tune anything. I only had maybe 10min to play before recordings started at 7pm.
> 
> I'm going to e-mail Kitztech and ask if SMT components can be replaced to reduce the gain. If they don't respond I may get some friends to help me reverse engineer it.
> 
> 
> Edit: They say it is "impossible". So, I'm guessing that it is possible but they don't want to say how.





Prototype3a said:


> FWIW, I have a Kitztech amp on order. I think the last time I ordered one it took a few weeks to show up...


 Which model did you buy?


----------



## lastplace

rabbit73 said:


> WVEC is now on RF 11


Thanks for the reminder. 

https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=86037


----------



## rabbit73

lastplace said:


> Thanks for the reminder.
> 
> https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=86037


Thank you for the signal report. 

That looks like the Alanton area. I see a lot of trees that might block TV signals.

I'm a little north of you, on the Peninsula.


lastplace said:


> The channels breaking up are.
> 
> NBC WAVY 10.1. RF. 19
> 
> ABC WVEC 13.1. RF 13, moving to RF 11. 5-1. Worst offender.
> 
> 4228 single story house. 2 300/75 Pigtails attached to antenna. Only 2 TVs both have the same issues.


 Which 4228 do you have, the original 4228 or the newer 4228HD




























It's not a good idea to connect 2 baluns to the antenna; it messes it up. Better to use a splitter if you have 2 TVs.


----------



## lastplace

Yes, Alanton area, right by the elem school. I have the original 4228. Next time I’m in the attic I’ll add a splitter and try moving the antenna over about 10’ 

Signal strength numbers taken this morning based on 1-100, Sony TV 

13.1 WVEC. Peak 75. Range 46-75. This channel starts blank and comes on in about 30 seconds

10.1. WAVY. Peak 73. Range 38-73

3.1. WTKR. Peak 95. Range 78-95

43.1 WVBT Peak 78. Range 78-56

15.1. WHRO Pegged at 100


----------



## rabbit73

lastplace said:


> Yes, Alanton area, right by the elem school. I have the original 4228. Next time I’m in the attic I’ll add a splitter and try moving the antenna over about 10’
> 
> Signal strength numbers taken this morning based on 1-100, Sony TV
> 
> 13.1 WVEC. RF 11 Peak 75. Range 46-75. This channel starts blank and comes on in about 30 seconds
> 
> 10.1. WAVY. RF 19 Peak 73. Range 38-73
> 
> 3.1. WTKR. RF 40 to 16 Peak 95. Range 78-95
> 
> 43.1 WVBT RF 21 Peak 78. Range 78-56
> 
> 15.1. WHRO RF 16 to 31 Pegged at 100


 The original 4228 is primarily a UHF antenna, but it has some gain on VHF-High. You might not have to go to a separate antenna for VHF-High, but a preamp might help because your antenna is in the attic.










Electrical interference can affect VHF channels like WVEC.

Try just one TV, the Sony, to see what the readings are. 

That range of signal strength is too wide. I suspect there is something in the signal path like trees.


----------



## lastplace

If I started over which antenna would you suggest? I see the RCA Yagi seems highly rated.

https://www.amazon.com/Antenna-Satellite-Broadcast-Epicenter-Reception/dp/B0024R4B5C


----------



## Prototype3a

I went for the 24dB Kitztech LNA as that is what I installed at my mom's place a few years back but she also has probably 150ft of coax between her tv and her antenna AND she lives in the middle of nowhere. I probably should have purchased an airspy or some other tool first since, now that I have the amp, I have no idea why it isn't working.

Does anyone have a link to an explanation of channel nulling?

.

FWIW, I prefer this Wineguard HD7000R to the RCA as it has more VHF gain. For my location, it performed better without the extension rods. 
https://www.amazon.com/Winegard-Company-Compact-Antenna-HD7000R/dp/B001TIQ6SW

I think the HD7000R is a hard antenna to beat for something that is fairly compact and seems to have good gain from low VHF all the way to the top of the UHF. I also found it helpful as Wineguard actually has a table of gain vs frequency for it in a PDF.


----------



## rabbit73

lastplace said:


> If I started over which antenna would you suggest? I see the RCA Yagi seems highly rated.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Antenna-Satellite-Broadcast-Epicenter-Reception/dp/B0024R4B5C


 That antenna looks like the RCA ANT751.

I'm not sure what you mean by start over. If you mean replace the CM4228 with the RCA Yagi in your attic, I don't think that is the best solution. It has slightly more VHF-High gain than the 4228 for WVEC, but much less gain for your UHF channels. It would probably work outside and in the clear at your location, but not in the attic. 

You can try the RCA antenna to satisfy your own curiosity, but if you want a UHF/VHF-High combo antenna in the attic, a Winegard HD7694P would be a better choice.

What I would like you to do is take some readings with just the Sony connected to the 4228. Maybe you can find a location in the attic where WVEC and WAVY will be better. If not, then add a preamp.

Also, please look outside to see what trees are in the signal path when your antenna in the attic is aimed at 260 degrees. 

If WVEC still isn't good enough, you will have to add a second antenna for WVEC like the Stellar Labs 30-2475 and combine it with your 4228 with a UVSJ UHF/VHF combiner.


----------



## lastplace

Thanks for the information. I’ll work on making adjustments to my current set up before any purchases are made.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> I went for the 24dB Kitztech LNA as that is what I installed at my mom's place a few years back but she also has probably 150ft of coax between her tv and her antenna AND she lives in the middle of nowhere. I probably should have purchased an airspy or some other tool first since, now that I have the amp, I have no idea why it isn't working.


That is probably the KT-200. It's a good low-noise preamp with good gain but not as resistant to overload as some other medium gain preamps.










One of the problems with reception of VHF channels is the higher noise level on VHF. The lower Noise Figure of a preamp like the KT-200 is of no advantage because the noise level from electrical interference on VHF is higher than the preamp noise.










Here is an extreme case of electrical noise interference on VHF-High:










Mine isn't quite as bad:










A $22 SDR dongle and free open-source spectrum analyzer software (you have to assemble it in a folder) would allow you to look at the noise on VHF-High at your location as above. You can also use the dongle with SDR# (SDR Sharp) software which is easier to setup:


----------



## Falcon_77

Prototype3a said:


> I went for the 24dB Kitztech LNA as that is what I installed at my mom's place a few years back but she also has probably 150ft of coax between her tv and her antenna AND she lives in the middle of nowhere. I probably should have purchased an airspy or some other tool first since, now that I have the amp, I have no idea why it isn't working.
> 
> Does anyone have a link to an explanation of channel nulling?


Channel nulling refers to aiming the antenna so the undesirable signals are in the nulls, so they are effectively attenuated, while still getting enough gain on the desired signal(s).

Here's a gain chart that shows the nulls in this particular antenna (see the sharp drops on the sides).

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/CM2020.html

With your own antenna, you can experiment to see where the noise or unwanted stations are weakest by turning the antenna and watching the results. An SDR really helps with that process as it provides so much more info than just Strength and Quality.

But, I still think you are getting overload from the strong UHF stations, yeah even on a VHF antenna. Did you order a filter or two to help with that?

Also, I hadn't tried a Kitztech before, but will test it out when it comes. I got a variable gain model.


----------



## Prototype3a

For some reason I thought nulling a channel was some sort of shenanigans where you use two antennas with a phase difference so they interfere with each other.


I'm trying to do some research on the various SDRs. That will definitely be my next purchase so I have a better chance at figuring out what exactly is going on. As far as I can tell, the RTL-SDR is sold out so I may not even be able to get one for a month or more and by that time I suspect the phase10 transition will have occurred. It seems like the options are the RTL-SDR at ~$30+$15 in adapters or an Airspy at $200?

In other news, I got permission and trimmed the trees a bit more along my Ch9 path but as far as I can tell, it didn't make a difference. I also got some material to reinforce the big VHF antenna's boom so I may take it down and work on that next week.


----------



## Falcon_77

I found the RTL's bandwidth to be too narrow for my tastes, but it's cheap and still useful.

The AirSpy R2 is another great choice and as noted above you can analyze all DTV bands at once with it.

I would suggest an *SDRPlay* if you don't mind analyzing just 1 DTV channel at a time and that's plenty, most of the time.

A low-end SDRPlay will do, such as this one:

https://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-015965

But maybe you can probably find the older RSP1 model for cheaper (used) online. Edit: Well I just looked and didn't find any that made sense. Better to go with the newer model above with what I (didn't) see. Maybe I should sell my old RSP1 (if I can find it).

Phasing antennas is a much more advanced approach to introducing nulls and is beyond my current skill level.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> For some reason I thought nulling a channel was some sort of shenanigans where you use two antennas with a phase difference so they interfere with each other.


 There are two ways to null a channel that is causing interference. One is to use the pattern of a directional antenna as mentioned by Falcon_77. In your case, it would look like this:



















Of course, that pattern is with the antenna in the clear. In the real world, the pattern will not be as clean because the antenna will be surrounded by other objects. In particular, there will be reflections of the undesired channel off objects in front of the antenna.

It could be worse; they could both be on the same channel, which is called co-channel interference.

The second way is called, by hdtvptimer.com, the Two-Antenna Trick. It connects two identical antennas out of phase so that the main lobe splits in two, which creates a null between the lobes.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html

For example:


----------



## rabbit73

*SDRs for Solving Reception Problems*



Prototype3a said:


> I'm trying to do some research on the various SDRs. That will definitely be my next purchase so I have a better chance at figuring out what exactly is going on. As far as I can tell, the RTL-SDR is sold out so I may not even be able to get one for a month or more and by that time I suspect the phase10 transition will have occurred. It seems like the options are the RTL-SDR at ~$30+$15 in adapters or an Airspy at $200?


The first step is the RTL-SDR dongle. It is inexpensive, but limited to 2 MHz bandwidth when used with the SDR# (SDR Sharp) software, so it can't show a whole 6 MHz channel. It is possible to add free open-source spectrum analyzer software to show all of VHF-High, but you have to assemble it in a folder which I found difficult to do. Pete Higgins had a tutorial on the Highdefforum, but that folded.

The next step up is the SDRPlay RSP1A. It has a 10 MHz bandwidth, so it can show a whole channel which would allow you to hunt for real channels 7 and 8 using the SDRuno software. There is also spectrum analyzer software for greater bandwidth, but there are a lot of spurious spikes coming up from the noise floor.
https://www.sdrplay.com/

https://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-015965










If you set the gain too high on the RSP1A SDR, it will overload.





































The 50 MHz span would also cover VHF-High 7 to 13.

I have both of the above SDRs.

The third step is the Airspy R2 with the Spectrum Spy software (by SDRSharp) as shown above by Falcon_77. It will allow you to show all of VHF-High. The Spectrum Spy is included in the R2 software download.

https://airspy.com/

https://airspy.com/airspy-r2/

https://v3.airspy.us/

https://v3.airspy.us/product/a-airspy/













> In other news, I got permission and trimmed the trees a bit more along my Ch9 path but as far as I can tell, it didn't make a difference. I also got some material to reinforce the big VHF antenna's boom so I may take it down and work on that next week.


High noise level on VHF-High might be reducing the SNR of WSWP, virtual channel 9.1; your spectrum scan will tell you if that's true. Strong FM signals can cause interference to VHF-High signals. Kitztech says the KT-200 has an FM filter, but if it isn't sufficient, you might have to add an outboard filter.
http://www.kitztech.com/products.html

http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/9c71695347/Radar-FM.png


----------



## Steve347

*Bi-Directional (horizontal beamwidth) Antenna Solution?
*
I live in a metro area and have primary stations at:

17.4 miles / 124 mag - Garner Antenna farm. Main networks
~20 miles / ~270 mag - WUNC-PBS - Guessing because MISSING from TVfool.

All channels are UHF except WTVD which will be moving to RF9 when the repack gets completed. I have attached the TVfool listing but it has several HUGE omissions (WRAL & WUNC) and possible errors on it so may be of limited use.

The main targets are almost 180 degrees opposite and would like to see if this could be tackled with a single antenna sans reflector. I shouldn't need the reflector for gain due to close proximity to transmitters. The only "ringer" is what to do about WTVD now RF11 which will be moving to RF9.

Do you have any suggestions for an antenna(s) that could cover this application?

Thanks,
Steve


----------



## rabbit73

A rabbitears.info report is more accurate, Steve:

https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=87230


You can do your own report here:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php

Try a DB4e with the reflector removed. 

If WTVD and WNCN are too weak, add a separate VHF antenna and combine the two antennas with a UVSJ UHF/VHF combiner.


Steve347 said:


> I shouldn't need the reflector for gain due to close proximity to transmitters. The only "ringer" is what to do about WTVD now RF11 which will be moving to RF9.


 The signals will be a lot weaker than listed because of the trees around your house; trees block TV signals.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html
Scroll down to Trees and UHF


----------



## Steve347

rabbit73 said:


> A rabbitears.info report is more accurate, Steve:
> 
> https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=87230
> 
> You can do your own report here:
> https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php


Thanks for the link to rabbitears I briefly looked at their home page but it was not intuitively obvious if and how to generate a report. I still don't see a way to export it like TVfool.



rabbit73 said:


> Try a DB4e with the reflector removed.


That is one possible option. What are your thoughts about a DB8E with the sections pointed in almost opposite directions? That would add more gain potentially but might not help VHF.

I am also seeing on the local CL what looks like an original AD Clearstream 4. It has the loops spaced further apart horizontally and no apparent VHF dipole. Is this one worth considering? Is there a way to add the VHF dipole to it or would I need a separate high VHF antenna?



rabbit73 said:


> The signals will be a lot weaker than listed because of the trees around your house; trees block TV signals.
> http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html
> Scroll down to Trees and UHF


Yes, I am well aware of trees. Fortunately they provide more value as shade with my south facing exposure than the TV. Sacrilege, I know!


----------



## rabbit73

Steve347 said:


> Thanks for the link to rabbitears I briefly looked at their home page but it was not intuitively obvious if and how to generate a report. I still don't see a way to export it like TVfool.


 If you go to the home page, click on one of these to take you to the signal search map:










But it's easier if you go directly to the signal search map page:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php

You can enter your address (which will be converted to coordinates) or enter your coordinates. I knew your address from your earlier posts, so I entered your coordinates derived from Google maps. I entered the Lat and Long in the left box separated by a comma. You can also enter each in its own box.










The link to your report is in two places, or you can give us just the ID number.












> That is one possible option. What are your thoughts about a DB8E with the sections pointed in almost opposite directions? That would add more gain potentially but might not help VHF.


Your original request was for a bi-directional antenna.

Combining two antennas aimed in different directions with a splitter in reverse (which is what a DB8e is) often doesn't work very well, because when the same signals arrive at the combining point, they will interfere with each other if they are not in phase (arrive at the same instant). You are welcome to try it if you are curious.



> I am also seeing on the local CL what looks like an original AD Clearstream 4. It has the loops spaced further apart horizontally and no apparent VHF dipole. Is this one worth considering? Is there a way to add the VHF dipole to it or would I need a separate high VHF antenna?


The CS4 has a beamwidth that is more narrow than the DB4e; it might not collect all that you want.

You must be prepared to do some experiments to see what will work.


----------



## Steve347

Thanks for the Rabbitears tutorial. This should probably be linked somewhere instead of the TVfool one which isn't very useful anymore.



rabbit73 said:


> Your original request was for a bi-directional antenna.
> 
> Combining two antennas aimed in different directions with a splitter in reverse (which is what a DB8e is) often doesn't work very well, because when the same signals arrive at the combining point, they will interfere with each other if they are not in phase (arrive at the same instant). You are welcome to try it if you are curious.


I was just throwing out another (apparently not so good) option.



rabbit73 said:


> The CS4 has a beamwidth that is more narrow than the DB4e; it might not collect all that you want.


Thanks for the beamwidth info on the CS4 vs DB4E. I am assuming that this relationship holds with or without the rear reflector.



rabbit73 said:


> You must be prepared to do some experiments to see what will work.


Time to "shoot the engineer" (me) spend money and get into production!


----------



## lifespeed

Steve347 said:


> Thanks for the beamwidth info on the CS4 vs DB4E. I am assuming that this relationship holds with or without the rear reflector.



No, the reflector is part of the design. The pattern will definitely change.


----------



## Steve347

lifespeed said:


> No, the reflector is part of the design. The pattern will definitely change.


After looking at the DB4e I can see that the main beamwidth determining factor is one is vertical stacked (DB4e) while the CS4 is horizontally stacked.

So is there any way to see what the patterns would be without the respective reflectors? A gain comparison would be nice too.


----------



## rabbit73

Steve347 said:


> After looking at the DB4e I can see that the main beamwidth determining factor is one is vertical stacked (DB4e) while the CS4 is horizontally stacked.
> 
> So is there any way to see what the patterns would be without the respective reflectors? A gain comparison would be nice too.


 When you remove the reflector, the bi-directional pattern will be symmetrical. That is, the rear pattern will be a mirror image of the front pattern. You will lose about 3 dB gain.

https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl

https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bay

https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bay/demicm4228

If I were at your location I would want to try each direction with and without the reflector.

If I lived at your location, I would use two antennas with reflectors, one for each direction. Each antenna would be connected to a separate tuner.


----------



## Prototype3a

So, if I understand this correctly, the main problem with the SDRs is that the software can't scan a band, write down the result and then scan the next bit of band?


----------



## Steve347

rabbit73 said:


> When you remove the reflector, the bi-directional pattern will be symmetrical. That is, the rear pattern will be a mirror image of the front pattern. You will lose about 3 dB gain.
> 
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl
> 
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bay
> 
> https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bay/demicm4228
> 
> If I were at your location I would want to try each direction with and without the reflector.
> 
> If I lived at your location, I would use two antennas with reflectors, one for each direction. Each antenna would be connected to a separate tuner.


Thanks for the information. I think I'll start with a DB4e (with and without reflector) and see what happens. Missed a "used" one on Ebay for $30 by about a month.

It will be interesting to see what RF9 will look like after the repack is complete in a couple of months


I also noticed that the CS4 has gone through at least 3 major revisions:

Version 1 - UHF only with reflectors wide bay spacing
Version 2 - Added a VHF dipole to the top of one of the bays.
Version 3 - Removed the reflectors, moved the bays closer together and moved the VHF dipole down to the middle of the antenna. I suspect that the reflectors would interfere with the VHF dipole.


----------



## rabbit73

*Review of SDR Spectrum Analyzer Capabilities*



Prototype3a said:


> So, if I understand this correctly, the main problem with the SDRs is that the software can't scan a band, write down the result and then scan the next bit of band?


 Different SDRs have different bandwidths and spectrum analyzer capabilities. Here are three that I have learned about:










*1. The RTL-SDR.COM/RTL-SDR Blog dongle* ($22) has a bandwidth of about 2 MHz. When you use it with the SDR# (SDR Sharp) software it isn't able to show a full 6 MH channel. But, it is able to show part of a channel to see if it's there and some of the noise floor. You can see enough of the channel to make an estimate of the SNR:
https://www.rtl-sdr.com/buy-rtl-sdr-dvb-t-dongles/










If you use the free open-source spectrum analyzer software for the RTL-SDR dongle, you can make a much wider scan than 2 MHz. The software stitches together 2 MHz sections to produce a continuous scan. Here is a 50 MHz wide span of VHF-High:










The downside is that you have to assemble the software in a folder. AFAIK, there is no ready-to-use software to do a scan wider than 2 MHz with the RTL-SDR dongle. Some people, including me, find it difficult to assemble software from github.
https://eartoearoak.com/software/rtlsdr-scanner
https://github.com/EarToEarOak/RTLSDR-Scanner/releases

UPDATE: *tustinfarm* mentioned below that the Spektrum SA software allows the RTL-SDR dongle to cover a wider span. I posted two images here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...-related-hardware-topic-616.html#post59620756
made with v2.0.0 of the Spektrum SA software found here:
https://github.com/pavels/spektrum/releases
*
2. The SDRplay RSP1A SDR* ($100+) has a bandwidth of 10 MHz, so it can do a whole channel with the SDRuno software. It's priced low enough for the dedicated hobbyist, and it's made in the UK.
https://www.sdrplay.com/
https://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-015965










There is also ready-to-use spectrum analyzer software for the RSP1A that can do a full channel and even wider, according to your selection of the span; here it's 10 MHz wide:
https://www.sdrplay.com/spectrum-analyser/

https://www.sdrplay.com/downloads/










50 MHz wide:










The new UHF band (40 and 50 haven't moved yet); 200 MHz wide:










Inverted colors in Windows10 Paint; would use less ink to print:










Check for cellular signals:










*3. The Airspy R2* (a little less than $200, on sale now 15% off) with the Spectrum Spy software (by SDRSharp) will allow you to show all of VHF-High. Spectrum Spy is included in the R2 software download.
https://airspy.com/
https://airspy.com/airspy-r2
https://v3.airspy.us/


----------



## tustinfarm

rabbit73 said:


> ...*1. The RTL-SDR.COM/RTL-SDR Blog dongle* ($22) has a bandwidth of about 2 MHz. When you use it with the SDR# (SDR Sharp) software it isn't able to show a full 6 MH channel. But, it is able to show part of a channel to see if it's there and some of the noise floor. You can see enough of the channel to make an estimate of the SNR...
> 
> ..If you use the free open-source spectrum analyzer software for the RTL-SDR dongle, you can make a much wider scan than 2 MHz. The software stitches together 2 MHz sections to produce a continuous scan
> 
> ...The downside is that you have to assemble the software in a folder. AFAIK, there is no ready-to-use software to do a scan wider than 2 MHz with the RTL-SDR dongle. Some people, including me, find it difficult to assemble software from github.
> https://github.com/EarToEarOak/RTLSDR-Scanner/releases
> *
> *


*

I recently came across the Spektrum software for use with the RTL-SDR dongle. There is even a version that works with Windows 10. Works well for me.

https://www.rtl-sdr.com/spektrum-sv-mod-rtl-sdr-spectrum-analyzer-software-now-with-improved-ui/*


----------



## rabbit73

tustinfarm said:


> I recently came across the Spektrum software for use with the RTL-SDR dongle. There is even a version that works with Windows 10. Works well for me.
> 
> https://www.rtl-sdr.com/spektrum-sv-mod-rtl-sdr-spectrum-analyzer-software-now-with-improved-ui/


 Thank you for the tip about the Spektrum SA software for the RTL-SDR dongle. It does indeed allow the dongle to cover a much wider span. The lettering on the display is a little too small for my old eyes on my 15" laptop and I'm not too crazy about the notch in the trace every 2 MHz.



















https://github.com/pavels/spektrum

I used software version 2.0.0 found here:
https://github.com/pavels/spektrum/releases

The dongle gets pretty warm; it does the same thing with the SDRSharp software. I wonder how much current it draws. I wonder if I need a powered USB hub to reduce the current load on the laptop.

Low cost spectrum analyser/scanner with AirSpy and RTLSDR
https://vk4zxi.blogspot.com/2016/04/low-cost-spectrum-analyser-scanner-with.html


----------



## tustinfarm

rabbit73 said:


> _...and I'm not too crazy about the notch in the trace every 2 MHz.
> 
> I used software version 2.0.0 found here:
> https://github.com/pavels/spektrum/releases
> 
> The dongle gets pretty warm; it does the same thing with the SDRSharp software. I wonder how much current it draws. I wonder if I need a powered USB hub to reduce the current load on the laptop..._



I agree, the 2 MHz notches in the Spektrum SA software are a big drawback, especially when you're trying to detect multipath effects in an ATSC channel. I had forgotten about that, and also how hot it makes the dongle. I just installed the RTLSDR scanner program, and immediately I see it is far superior. We live in such great times (COVID-19 aside), when a cheap USB dongle can be used as such a powerful RF tool.


----------



## rabbit73

tustinfarm said:


> I agree, the 2 MHz notches in the Spektrum SA software are a big drawback, especially when you're trying to detect multipath effects in an ATSC channel. I had forgotten about that, and also how hot it makes the dongle. I just installed the RTLSDR scanner program, and immediately I see it is far superior. We live in such great times (COVID-19 aside), when a cheap USB dongle can be used as such a powerful RF tool.


 I was able to install the RTL-SDR scanner in my Windows 7 computer, but I'm having trouble installing it in my Windows 10 computer.:frown:
Which version did you download?

*Much later:*

OK, I now have the scanner in my Windows 10 computer; I moved the app instead of downloading it again.



















Crop for more detail:


----------



## Falcon_77

I am having "fun" trying to get 8 & 10 out of San Diego per the inspiration I received from above. I need to figure out how to test the filtering characterisitcs on my HLSJ. They don't seem to be as good as I had thought for blocking out junk below RF 7.

Granted the CM7777 doesn't seem to be a good choice with its 26dB gain (way too much for here). The Kitztech KT-100VG is so much better with the variable gain adjustment and I have it around +12dB if I had to guess, but I need to figure out how to measure it with the NanoVNA. But that one is for indoors and it's going to WA.

I have some wicked overload even when trying to filter the CM7777 before the input and only attached to my Hi-V Stellar. And it's still in the attic, so I need to get it out to try for San Diego again.

But tropo has been strong some days which has helped, at least when I was on the Kitztech.

Attached is a pic of my HLSJ "filter," and even with that in the system, have a look at the junk mostly in RF 3. I have no antenna or path for Lo-V as it's filtered out, but this is nasty whatever it is. I'm going to "hunt" this signal.


----------



## rabbit73

Falcon_77 said:


> I am having "fun" trying to get 8 & 10 out of San Diego per the inspiration I received from above. I need to figure out how to test the filtering characterisitcs on my HLSJ. They don't seem to be as good as I had thought for blocking out junk below RF 7.


Is this report accurate for your location?
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=89989


----------



## Falcon_77

Yes, that looks accurate. I recall in the past coming to the conclusion that I would need KFMB and KGTV to get their power increases approved to get them on a regular basis. Co-Channel and adjacent channel probably don't help much. Only Hi-V is being pre-amped right now into a Stellar combiner. I also have a distribution amp feeding 4 main runs.

I'm going to try putting the Stellar antenna onto my deck to see how much that helps. The house can also shield it from Mt Wilson. But then I will need to employ a switch. Are there any electronic ones so I don't have to scurry into the attic each time to switch inputs?


----------



## rabbit73

Falcon_77 said:


> I need to figure out how to test the filtering characterisitcs on my HLSJ. They don't seem to be as good as I had thought for blocking out junk below RF 7.


There are several ways of testing it. I usually do port-to-port isolation. In this case, I would feed an FM signal into the VHF-Low port and measure its reduced strength at the VHF-High port with an SDR or signal level meter. You could also show a filter curve of the low pass section with your NanoVNA with an s21 measurement, which would be more useful than an SWR or return loss measurement. The upper port of the VNA connected to the LO port of the HLSJ, and the common port of the HLSJ connected to the lower port of the VNA, after doing a calibration.










I suggest you try this instead. The UVSJ passes VHF and blocks UHF to keep the preamp from being overloaded by the stronger UHF signals. The HLSJ passes VHF-High signals and blocks VHF-Low signals.



Code:


VHF Ant > coax >>> UVSJ >>> coax >>> HLSJ >>> VHF Preamp > 
                  LO  Line          HI  Line

The two filters form a low insertion loss band pass filter for VHF-High, so you could also try a VHF-High bandpass filter.

Aim the VHF antenna at San Diego and do a Spectrum Spy scan with your SDR. This is your previous scan:










In the new scan you should see the above signals much weaker since they will be at the rear of the antenna. Something should show for 8 and 10 from San Diego. You still have a severe adjacent channel problem. For reliable reception from San Diego 7, 9, and 11 must not be more than 33 dB stronger than 8 and 10.



> Are there any electronic ones so I don't have to scurry into the attic each time to switch inputs?


There are 75 ohm coax relays. You would run a separate power line for the relay. If you don't have DC on the coax from the attic, you can add it for a relay the same way as for a preamp, by using a Bias-T at each end; see ARRL publications. For TV antennas we call them power inserters.


----------



## rabbit73

Falcon_77 said:


> I need to figure out how to test the filtering characterisitcs on my HLSJ. They don't seem to be as good as I had thought for blocking out junk below RF 7.


Do you have solar panels?

If yes, are they solar electric or solar thermal?


----------



## tustinfarm

rabbit73 said:


> I was able to install the RTL-SDR scanner in my Windows 7 computer, but I'm having trouble installing it in my Windows 10 computer.:frown:
> Which version did you download?
> 
> *Much later:*
> 
> OK, I now have the scanner in my Windows 10 computer; I moved the app instead of downloading it again.


One of my Windows 10 computers still won't cooperate with the install of RTLSDR scanner. Get an error about library for RTLSDR. The other two Win 10 machines are fine with installig the latest version (even though it says 32 but version). 

When you say "moved the app" can you be very specific about which folder(s) or file(s) you moved from the Win 7 installation?


----------



## Falcon_77

rabbit73 said:


> Do you have solar panels?
> 
> If yes, are they solar electric or solar thermal?


Indeed I do (solar electric) and they were much worse before the "fix," where they wrapped ferrites around the leads and twisted the runs. Before the fix, 2m ham was essentially useless during the day.

I did find another big noise maker in the attic that I didn't need, an Ethernet switch, so I removed it. See the pic of the offender and the results with and w/o it.

Let me take another spectrumspy cap without the 7777 in line today so you can see the unamped signals along with a pic of the current antenna setup. The 7777 remains a poor performer next to the Kitztech. The below pics are with the 7777 engaged.


----------



## Falcon_77

Attached are some initial results w/o the preamp. I also removed the HLSJ filter for now.

There seems simply too much gain on the fixed-gain 7777, as evidenced by the arrow. There's also little tropo right now so KFMB and KGTV are pretty much in the mud. Also attached is a pic of the Stellar pointed towards Mt. Soledad.


----------



## rabbit73

Falcon_77 said:


> Indeed I do (solar electric) and they were much worse before the "fix," where they wrapped ferrites around the leads and twisted the runs. Before the fix, 2m ham was essentially useless during the day.
> 
> I did find another big noise maker in the attic that I didn't need, an Ethernet switch, so I removed it. See the pic of the offender and the results with and w/o it.


Good; you are on it finding noise sources that would harm weak VHF-High signals.



















Much better.



> Let me take another spectrumspy cap without the 7777 in line today so you can see the unamped signals along with a pic of the current antenna setup. The 7777 remains a poor performer next to the Kitztech. The below pics are with the 7777 engaged.












I see 8 and 10 now. They look like they might be strong enough in comparison to their adjacent channels, but they don't look like they have sufficient SNR to decode. I can't tell if the ambient noise is reducing their SNR or if the SNR is being reduced by IMD products from overload that raise the noise floor.

Which 7777 do you have; the original 7777 with two antenna inputs, the newer 7777 with one antenna input, or the 7777HD? I like the 7777HD for testing because it has two gain settings.


----------



## rabbit73

tustinfarm said:


> One of my Windows 10 computers still won't cooperate with the install of RTLSDR scanner. Get an error about library for RTLSDR. The other two Win 10 machines are fine with installig the latest version (even though it says 32 but version).
> 
> When you say "moved the app" can you be very specific about which folder(s) or file(s) you moved from the Win 7 installation?


I understand your frustration with the DIY open-source software; I have experienced it myself. After two unsuccessful attempts to get the software to work, I was ready to give up. After getting some more help from the Highdefforum tutorial by Pete Higgins, I finally got it to work.

But, unfortunately, that thread no longer exists because that forum no longer exists. I now wish that I had made a copy of that thread.










I recently asked Pete if he would be willing to do a tutorial thread on another forum because there is still a need for it, but he declined:
https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81...igns-losses-diy-loops-etc-57.html#post3108583


Pete Higgins said:


> Rabbit 73,
> 
> Yes, we're staying as safe as we can. Unfortunately, I didn't save any of the material I wrote over the years so I wouldn't know where to begin. I had links to the various topics I wrote about that I referred to instead of having to re-research them again. Len also asked for a tutorial. Sorry to see HighDef forum go away. It was a valuable source of information.


 Pete showed a list of dependencies that must be in the folder before it would work. I had to find one using advanced search for my computer; I copied it and pasted it into the folder. 










Other times, a dependency was in MS software that must be downloaded:










When I was doing backup for my W7 computer on a USB thumb drive, I added a folder for the RTL-SDR folder.










This is the scanner software in the USB drive:










I intended to move a *copy* of the 64bit scanner to the W10 Program Files, but I clicked on *move*, so I had to send a copy back from W10 to the USB drive.










Next, I sent a copy of the old 32bit scanner to W10 Program Files (x86).










I am able to run both scanner files from the USB drive or the W10 files.


----------



## Falcon_77

rabbit73 said:


> Which 7777 do you have; the original 7777 with two antenna inputs, the newer 7777 with one antenna input, or the 7777HD? I like the 7777HD for testing because it has two gain settings.


The one above is the newer single input 7777. I have an old version in WA with the separate inputs. I also have a 7777HD up in WA with the 2 gain settings.

I'm planning on bringing the '7HD back down after my trip over Memorial Day w/e to try it here in SoCal. I am returning the newer 7777 back to CM. It wasn't helping.

Did you see my 2nd post above? Here is an update with a bit more gain on the R2 (no pre-amp).


----------



## Channel99

rabbit73 said:


> I understand your frustration with the DIY open-source software; I have experienced it myself. After two unsuccessful attempts to get the software to work, I was ready to give up. After getting some more help from the Highdefforum tutorial by Pete Higgins, I finally got it to work.
> 
> But, unfortunately, that thread no longer exists because that forum no longer exists. I now wish that I had made a copy of that thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I recently asked Pete if he would be willing to do a tutorial thread on another forum because there is still a need for it, but he declined:
> https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81...igns-losses-diy-loops-etc-57.html#post3108583
> 
> 
> Pete showed a list of dependencies that must be in the folder before it would work. I had to find one using advanced search for my computer; I copied it and pasted it into the folder.



The highdefforum still exists at archive.org. Is this Pete's post?:

https://web.archive.org/web/2017062...-defined-radio-spectrum-analyzer-10-00-a.html


----------



## rabbit73

Falcon_77 said:


> Attached are some initial results w/o the preamp. I also removed the HLSJ filter for now.
> 
> There seems simply too much gain on the fixed-gain 7777, as evidenced by the arrow. There's also little tropo right now so KFMB and KGTV are pretty much in the mud. Also attached is a pic of the Stellar pointed towards Mt. Soledad.


Yup, 8 and 10 are down in the mud without an amp.


----------



## rabbit73

Falcon_77 said:


> The one above is the newer single input 7777. I have an old version in WA with the separate inputs. I also have a 7777HD up in WA with the 2 gain settings.
> 
> I'm planning on bringing the '7HD back down after my trip over Memorial Day w/e to try it here in SoCal. I am returning the newer 7777 back to CM. It wasn't helping.
> 
> Did you see my 2nd post above? Here is an update with a bit more gain on the R2 (no pre-amp).


I didn't see it at first because I was eating lunch and posting a long answer with images to tustinfarm's software question.

Yes, more gain on the R2 was needed.


----------



## rabbit73

Channel99 said:


> The highdefforum still exists at archive.org. Is this Pete's post?:
> 
> https://web.archive.org/web/2017062...-defined-radio-spectrum-analyzer-10-00-a.html


 Thank you for finding the archive; I didn't know about that. The last part of the thread isn't there, but there are a few important posts that have been saved.










This image showed in Pete's first post, but only if you were signed in:










*Post by majortom:
2013-12-01, 08:55 PM*
https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/1918882-post195.html



majortom said:


> here is another option for viewing the raw rf spectrum without a 20,000 dollar spectrum analyser...
> using one of them 10 dollar dvb-t dongles...
> 
> since it's in python it can be used in a Linux, Windows or Mac environment..
> Due to the way it works...uses a sliding window while doing FFT in like 2Mhz chunks,
> it's kinda slow doing a scan...But it could be useful in spotting whether your having
> mutipath issues...so on..
> at 10 bux for one of these dongles, first discussed in this thread  I don't see how one could go wrong...
> 
> https://github.com/stephenong/RTLSDR-Scanner/


*Post #9 by Pete Higgins, 04-04-2014, 04:07 PM * 
Extract:

*RTL2832U + R820T DVB-T USB Tuner Card Hints & Kinks **04-04-2014, 04:07 PM 
*
A new version of RTLSDR Scanner was released on April 2nd. It can be found here:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/rtls...se_mirror=iweb

*Install 32 bit Microsoft Visual C++ for RTLSDR Scanner *
I ran into a problem getting the RTLSDR Scanner software to work with Windows 7 following a fresh install. After countless reinstalls, I discovered that I needed to install the 32 bit version of “Microsoft Visual C++ Redistributable (x86) {vcredist_x86.exe}”. The software author actually suggested installing Microsoft Visual C++ but since all my Windows 7 computers are 64 bit I was installing the 64 bit version and that didn’t seem to work. Three computers with fresh installs of Windows 7 setup flawlessly by first installing the Microsoft Visual C++ Redistributable (x86). It can be downloaded @ no charge from Microsoft here:
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/downl...s.aspx?id=5555

To install SDR# for use with the RTL2832U + R820T DVB-T USB Tuner Card, go to the section titled “Important note for RTL-SDR users” and use the installation script provided in this section.
http://sdrsharp.com/downloads/sdr-install.zip
Unzip “sdr-install.zip” and double click on the “install.bat” file. I suggest moving the sdr-install folder and its 3 files to C:\. The SDR# application and all of its files will then be found @ C:\sdr-install\sdrsharp\. Apparently, these dongles require a lot more support than some of the other software defined radios. The stable release only contains 20 files and the release installed for my dongle has 32. 

*Post #12, by Pete Higgins, 11-06-2016, 04:04 PM*
Extract:

*RTL/SDR Update*

It’s been over two years since I started this thread and a lot has changed in the world of software defined radio.

*Zadig*

In order to communicate with the RTL2832U + R820T2 dongle you need to install generic USB drivers. Zadig is a Windows application that does that. (Note; You need to download the correct version of Zadig for either Windows XP or Windows Vista & higher) The latest version of Zadig is 2.2.

In Zadig, go to Options and make sure “List All Devices” is checked.
Select “Bulk-In, Interface (Interface 0)”, “RTL2832UHIDIR” or “RTL2832U”, whichever shows up with your dongle plugged in.
Ensure that the driver on the right hand side of the green arrow is selected as WinUSB
Click the Replace or Reinstall Driver Button









Link to download Zadig:
http://zadig.akeo.ie/

Link to Zadig 2.0 - User Guide:
https://github.com/pbatard/libwdi/wiki/Zadig

*RTLSDR Scanner (NEW STANDALONE VERSIONS)*

SDR# has an active spectrum analyzer display that displays a ~2 MHz portion of the spectrum which is limited by the bandwidth of the dongle (For example 88 MHz to 90 MHz). RTLSDR Scanner progressively scans from a user defined lower frequency limit up to a user defined upper frequency limit then stitches the entire scan range into a conventional spectrum analyzer display (For example 88 MHz to 108 MHz or 470 MHz to 700 MHz). It looks at each segment for 131 ms by default. RTLSDR Scanner has proven invaluable to be able to view the channels received at my location and their relative signal strengths. It is capable of loading two saved scans to compare the effect of different antenna configurations.

The author has traditionally used a script based install that from my experience was occasionally prone to failure. He recently released standalone versions of the application that while a little more involved to initially configure seem to be bulletproof and portable from one computer to another when configured.

Link to download RTLSDR-Scanner:

https://github.com/EarToEarOak/RTLSDR-Scanner/releases

(Note; for 32 Bit version (i.e. XP, Win 7 & 10 32-Bit, etc.) scroll down the page)

*Overview:*
1. Plug RTL2832U + R820T2’s dongle into a USB port or hub.
2. Run Zadig to install the WIN USB driver (If you’ve already installed SDR# this step isn’t necessary).
3. Download the RTLSDR-Scanner executable file.
4. Make a RTLSDR-Scanner directory & copy the RTLSDR-Scanner executable file to it.
5. Download & copy the RTLSDR libraries to the RTLSDR-Scanner directory.
6. Optionally, download & copy msvcr100.dll to the RTLSDR-Scanner directory.
7. For the 64-Bit RTLSDR-Scanner executable download & install Visual C++ Redistributable Packages for Visual Studio 2010 (x64) or 2013 (x64).

The latest standalone 64-bit release of “rtlsdr_scan-windows-64bit.exe” is v1.0.22497.10311 released on Sep 20, 2016

The latest standalone 32-bit release of “rtlsdr_scan-windows-32bit.exe” is v1.0.22180.60082 released on Jan 28, 2016

These are both Windows executable files that require additional support libraries to function. 
I suggest creating a directory (folder) labeled “RTLSDR Scanner 32 Bit Stand Alone v1.0.22180.60082 Released on 28 Jan 2016” and copying “rtlsdr_scan-windows-32bit.exe” into it.
Or
For the 64-Bit executable create a directory “RTLSDR Scanner 64 Bit Stand Alone v1.0.22497.10311 Released on 20 Sep 2016” and copy “rtlsdr_scan-windows-64bit.exe” into it.
The 64-Bit RTLSDR-Scanner executable requires you to install Visual C++ Redistributable Packages for Visual Studio 2010 (x64). or Visual C++ Redistributable Packages for Visual Studio 2013 (x64).

Both the 32-Bit and the 64-Bit versions require you to download the RTLSDR libraries and utilities from Osmocom named “RelWithDebInfo”.

Link to download RelWithDebInfo:

http://sdr.osmocom.org/trac/attachme...ithDebInfo.zip

Download and unzip RelWithDebInfo.zip to a folder on your PC. It will create a directory named “rtl-sdr-release”. When you open that directory, you will see folders labeled x32 & x64. You need to copy the following files into the directory that contains the RTLSDR-Scanner executable file so it ends up looking like this:

convenience_static.lib
libusb-1.0.dll
msvcr100.dll
pthreadVC2-w32.dll or pthreadVC2-w64.dll
rtl_test.exe
rtlsdr.dll
rtlsdr.lib
rtlsdr_scan-windows-32bit.exe or rtlsdr_scan-windows-64bit.exe
rtlsdr_static.lib

Notice that except for “pthreadVC2-w32.dll” or “pthreadVC2-w64.dll” and the RTLSDR-Scanner executable all the RTLSDR library files have the same name but are different file sizes. You must copy the files from the correct x32 or x64 directory depending on which version of RTLSDR-Scanner you are setting up.

*msvcr100.dll*

The correct version may already be on your system – or maybe not.

Both the 32 & 64-Bit versions of RTLSDR-Scanner require msvcr100.dll. Like the RTLSDR libraries, msvcr100.dll comes in 32 & 64-Bit versions. The 32 bit version is incompatible with the 64 bit one.

The 32-Bit version of msvcr100.dll is 756 KB (It comes with SDR# if you need it or can be found in the Windows 10 Professional Windows\SysWOW directory)

The 64-Bit version of msvcr100.dll is 810 KB (I just copied it from the Windows 10 Professional Windows\System32 directory)

To make your RTLSDR-Scanner setup portable, I recommend downloading the correct 32 or 64-Bit version and including it in the directory with the RTLSDR-Scanner executable file.

*Note(s):*
Many programs depend on msvcr100.dll and usually install it in their application directory, or C:\Windows\System32 and/or C:\Windows\SysWOW64. My 64-Bit Windows 7 & 10 Professional installations had the correct 64-Bit version installed. However, Windows 7 Home Premium 64-Bit and Windows 10 Home 64-Bit did not. Also, when I did a fresh install of Windows XP Media Center Edition the 32-Bit msvcr100.dll was not installed. Windows will first look in the application directory and then in all the directories in the path statement to find msvcr100.dll. If you overwrite a 32-Bit version with a 64-Bit version or vice-versa you may break other applications. That’s why I recommend including the appropriate msvcr100.dll file in the directory with the RTLSDR-Scanner executable file.

Finally, if your installing the 64-Bit RTLSDR-Scanner executable download & install Visual C++ Redistributable Packages for Visual Studio 2010 (x64) or 2013 (x64). 

Link to download RTLSDR-Scanner & the Visual C++ Redistributable Packages:

https://github.com/EarToEarOak/RTLSDR-Scanner/releases

*FYI,*
I noticed that the Stand Alone versions take longer to load than the older versions installed by the script method. When I queried the author (Al) he replied “The stand alone application takes longer to start up as it extracts files to a temporary directory first when you run it. It's quite normal and nothing to be concerned about”.
END OF ARCHIVE EXTRACT


----------



## tustinfarm

rabbit73 said:


> ...I understand your frustration with the DIY open-source software; I have experienced it myself. After two unsuccessful attempts to get the software to work, I was ready to give up. After getting some more help from the Highdefforum tutorial by Pete Higgins, I finally got it to work. But, unfortunately, that thread no longer exists because that forum no longer exists. I now wish that I had made a copy of that thread.
> Other times, a dependency was in MS software that must be downloaded:
> When I was doing backup for my W7 computer on a USB thumb drive, I added a folder for the RTL-SDR folder.
> This is the scanner software in the USB drive:
> I intended to move a *copy* of the 64bit scanner to the W10 Program Files, but I clicked on *move*, so I had to send a copy back from W10 to the USB drive.
> Next, I sent a copy of the old 32bit scanner to W10 Program Files (x86).
> I am able to run both scanner files from the USB drive or the W10 files.


Rabbit73,

Can't thank you enough for posting that long and detailed account of how you got it to work. Since I am not a programmer I get pretty bewildered sometimes when github is involved, but slowly but surely I muddled my way through. In the end I downloaded the standalone 64 bit version, and moved it into the librtlsdr folder that was installed with the Spektrum program....and it WORKED! So I have it running on four Windows 10 PCs now, and it while I usually use the SDRPlay unit for TV signal work, going forward the dongles with the RTLSDR program will be almost as useful. What an incredibly powerful and inexpensive tool for examining TV signals!


----------



## Falcon_77

I put the Stellar Labs (SL) 30-2476 out on the deck and will report back how it works there. For now, I got the gain plots to work and they are fun. It's better than just looking at SWR. Thank you for the tips!

The SL combiner is very good along with the HLSJ, but the antenna switch leaves much to be desired. Are there better TV/75 Ohm switches out there? Using my Daiwa ham switches would be counter-productive I suspect. Thanks!


----------



## rabbit73

Falcon_77 said:


> I put the Stellar Labs (SL) 30-2476 out on the deck and will report back how it works there. For now, I got the gain plots to work and they are fun. It's better than just looking at SWR. Thank you for the tips!
> 
> The SL combiner is very good along with the HLSJ, but the antenna switch leaves much to be desired. Are there better TV/75 Ohm switches out there? Using my Daiwa ham switches would be counter-productive I suspect. Thanks!


 Very nice plots. Glad you are now doing s21.


Most of the cheap antenna slide switches are very poor quality. My favorite was the black vertical push button RS switch. My second favorite is the horizontal push button switch. What does your "I don't like it" switch look like?


----------



## Falcon_77

rabbit73 said:


> Most of the cheap antenna slide switches are very poor quality. My favorite was the black vertical push button RS switch. My second favorite is the horizontal push button switch. What does your "I don't like it" switch look like?


Yep, it's a slide switch. Let me see if I can find something better. Pic attached.

Even better would be an electronic switch I can change w/o having to scurry into the attic.


----------



## lifespeed

Falcon_77 said:


> Yep, it's a slide switch. Let me see if I can find something better. Pic attached.
> 
> Even better would be an electronic switch I can change w/o having to scurry into the attic.



Have you considered networked tuners? They're the ultimate multiple-antenna integration if you have, or are willing to run some Ethernet instead of coax cables. For as much as a quality electric coax switch costs you could buy one. Although you would need two.


----------



## rabbit73

Falcon_77 said:


> Yep, it's a slide switch. Let me see if I can find something better. Pic attached.


I had two very nice Radio Shack switches, but they got lost in a forced move. I call them vertical switches because they were designed to be mounted on a vertical surface:










I bought a switch that looks like this switch on eBay because it looked like the RS switch; it works well:










I also bought 2 of these, but I haven't tested them yet:












> Even better would be an electronic switch I can change w/o having to scurry into the attic.


This might work; I designed it just for you:










https://www.rfparts.com/relays/relays-tohtsu.html
This 75 ohm relay would ground the signal output of the VHF preamp power inserter when the main antenna is being used. The 50 ohm CX230 BNC relay doesn't.
https://www.rfparts.com/cx550f.html

Surplus:
http://fairradio.com/catalog/category/other-listings/coaxial-relays-and-switches/

Soontai 75 ohm relays:
https://www.soontai.com/75ohm-rfsw.htm

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...TitleDesc=0&_osacat=0&_odkw=TV+antenna+switch


----------



## Falcon_77

rabbit73 said:


> I had two very nice Radio Shack switches, but they got lost in a forced move. I call them vertical switches because they were designed to be mounted on a vertical surface:


Many thanks, rabbit. I ordered one of the RS ones and will have a look at the others. The vertical orientation is good as I moved the switch point into the media closet so I don't have to make trips to the attic just to flip a switch. Why I didn't do that years ago anyway, I don't know.



lifespeed said:


> Have you considered networked tuners? They're the ultimate multiple-antenna integration if you have, or are willing to run some Ethernet instead of coax cables. For as much as a quality electric coax switch costs you could buy one. Although you would need two.


I use a HDHR tuner, but it's just for RE scans. Maybe I should consider using it for IPTV in the house. Is that what you are thinking? Can I get SmartTV's to talk to them? (I hope so)


----------



## Falcon_77

rabbit73 said:


> This might work; I designed it just for you:


Thanks for this as well! Even in the media closet I'm sure this would still be useful. I will study.


----------



## Larry Kenney

Falcon_77 said:


> Thanks for this as well! Even in the media closet I'm sure this would still be useful. I will study.


Here's a picture of my RF switching. My six antennas each feed distribution amplifiers and then separate feeds go to switches where I have inputs for three TVs and my HDHR receivers. I can select any antenna to any receiver with a push go a button.

Larry


----------



## Falcon_77

Larry Kenney said:


> Here's a picture of my RF switching. My six antennas each feed distribution amplifiers and then separate feeds go to switches where I have inputs for three TVs and my HDHR receivers. I can select any antenna to any receiver with a push go a button.
> 
> Larry


Very nice. Thank you, Larry and good to talk to you again.

This is something I can aspire to and maybe I should get more of the push button switches. The slide switches are quite poor as noted about and it seems you agree.

Here's my current media cabinet setup, but it didn't look like this 24 hours ago. I need to reconnect and clean it up. And yeah, I need to keep it wife-friendly as well.


----------



## hdtvluvr

Falcon_77 said:


> ....And yeah, I need to keep it wife-friendly as well.


Especially since it appears to be on her side of the closet (noticed the shoes which I assume is hers  ). How did you get away with that??


----------



## lifespeed

Falcon_77 said:


> I use a HDHR tuner, but it's just for RE scans. Maybe I should consider using it for IPTV in the house. Is that what you are thinking? Can I get SmartTV's to talk to them? (I hope so)



Exactly, a networked tuner allows you to completely optimize and automate (DVR recordings) even in the face of complications like dual antennae to receive two transmitter locations, without resorting to technically-compromised approaches like RF combining. Or even the inconvenience of an antenna switch your recorder can't operate.


Most smartTVs can access a DLNA source, which the tuners are. The most advanced implementation of networked tuners will connect a tuner to each antenna, then run a media server on the network . This could be a PC, but "appliances" that serve this purpose exist, think of it as a super-DVR. I use Emby on a PC, but there are others. The media server will "combine" the dual tuners seamlessly to appear as a single live TV source, it can even include cable TV. In the configuration page for the HDHR you configure which channels are received on which antenna, the wife and kids don't even need to understand which antenna they're using. They just tune the desired channel.



I should mention the "advanced implementation" of networked tuners using a media server is not that difficult for a moderately tech-savvy user. Otherwise networked tuners can be dead simple for the tech-challenged using DLNA.


Edit: forgot to mention SiliconDust is releasing their ATSC 3.0 tuner next month, a feature some of us can take advantage of now or very soon.


----------



## lifespeed

rabbit73 said:


> The insertion loss is higher and I'm not impressed with the construction. They used a general purpose circuit board modified for use as a UVSJ.



There is a company called Aska that appears to make quite a few RF products, I wonder if their UVSJ is any good? I like the fact it doesn't add (admittedly slight) loss for a RF choke to pass DC for a preamp I don't have.


http://www.askacom.com/


They don't list the UV-SJ or specs on their website, but it is in p. 9 of their catalog and available for sale by some resellers. Probably discontinued like everything else VHF pre-repack when everybody thought VHF was dead.


I think I'm going to grab one while they're still available. The UVSJ is going to be under the eaves of the house, not up on the pole, so no big deal to access if for some reason I'm not happy with the performance.


----------



## Channel99

rabbit73 said:


> This might work; I designed it just for you:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.rfparts.com/relays/relays-tohtsu.html
> This 75 ohm relay would ground the signal output of the VHF preamp power inserter when the main antenna is being used. The 50 ohm CX230 BNC relay doesn't.
> https://www.rfparts.com/cx550f.html
> 
> Surplus:
> http://fairradio.com/catalog/category/other-listings/coaxial-relays-and-switches/
> 
> Soontai 75 ohm relays:
> https://www.soontai.com/75ohm-rfsw.htm
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...TitleDesc=0&_osacat=0&_odkw=TV+antenna+switch


One of these will add wireless remote control:

https://www.amazon.com/UHPPOTE-4-Channel-Transmitters-Automation-Controller/dp/B07SJRW4TV


----------



## lifespeed

rabbit73 said:


> This might work; I designed it just for you:



While I appreciate the hit of RF steam-punk nostalgia, you can buy a lot of state-of-the-art consumer HDTV receiver from SiliconDust with the benefit of ma$$ production pricing. It solves the antenna switch problem, the DVR and Wife Acceptance Factor (WAF) problem, ATSC 3.0 upgrade problem, and probably world hunger as well.


Once you add a second antenna you just can't beat the networked tuner.


----------



## rabbit73

Larry Kenney said:


> Here's a picture of my RF switching. My six antennas each feed distribution amplifiers and then separate feeds go to switches where I have inputs for three TVs and my HDHR receivers. I can select any antenna to any receiver with a push go a button.
> 
> Larry


Very nice system, Larry.


----------



## lifespeed

Larry wins the TV antenna contest!





rabbit73 said:


> Very nice system, Larry.


----------



## Larry Kenney

lifespeed said:


> Larry wins the TV antenna contest!


LOL... thank you! You can see the other ends of the coax cables here: https://larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html


----------



## rabbit73

Falcon_77 said:


> Even better would be an electronic switch I can change w/o having to scurry into the attic.


This might work; I designed it just for you:


Falcon_77 said:


> Thanks for this as well! Even in the media closet I'm sure this would still be useful. I will study.





Falcon_77 said:


> This is something I can aspire to and maybe I should get more of the push button switches. The slide switches are quite poor as noted about and it seems you agree.
> 
> Here's my current media cabinet setup, but it didn't look like this 24 hours ago. I need to reconnect and clean it up.












My error; I thought you only had one coax line coming down from the attic. If you have two coax lines, you don't need an electronic switch; a mechanical switch will do just fine.



> And yeah, I need to keep it wife-friendly as well.


*"The King lives in the Castle at the discretion of the Queen."*

The wife has complete jurisdiction over the home, even the Man Cave. Her authority is derived from the nesting instinct; the home is the nest.

Ignore at your own risk.

I have been very fortunate. My wire tolerated wires and aluminum tubing for my antenna experiments. She even gave me an expensive signal level meter as a present.


----------



## Falcon_77

hdtvluvr said:


> Especially since it appears to be on her side of the closet (noticed the shoes which I assume is hers  ). How did you get away with that??


Bingo! Well, I've had that media closet long before we were married and the re-design of the closet. Thankfully, she's very tolerant and understanding of my RF looniness. 



rabbit73 said:


> My error; I thought you only had one coax line coming down from the attic. If you have two coax lines, you don't need an electronic switch; a mechanical switch will do just fine.
> 
> *"The King lives in the Castle at the discretion of the Queen."*
> 
> The wife has complete jurisdiction over the home, even the Man Cave. Her authority is derived from the nesting instinct; the home is the nest.
> 
> Ignore at your own risk.
> 
> I have been very fortunate. My wire tolerated wires and aluminum tubing for my antenna experiments. She even gave me an expensive signal level meter as a present.


Yep, two runs and yep!



lifespeed said:


> I should mention the "advanced implementation" of networked tuners using a media server is not that difficult for a moderately tech-savvy user. Otherwise networked tuners can be dead simple for the tech-challenged using DLNA.
> 
> 
> Edit: forgot to mention SiliconDust is releasing their ATSC 3.0 tuner next month, a feature some of us can take advantage of now or very soon.


Alright. I need to get on that then and yep I am a backer of that 3.0 tuner. It will be a good time to finally figure out DLNA stuff.


----------



## Prototype3a

For what it's worth....

I have a Synology DS1817 connected via 10gbe to a netgear switch that has two 10gbe ports and my desktop (Ryzen 2700x/Quadro P2000) runs Plex server and also has a 10gbe network card. I have a separate 5 port 1gbe switch that the two HDHR quattros are plugged into. Each HDHR has an Antenna's Direct "UVSJ" to combine UHF and VHF antennas up on my mast. I keep the Plex metadata on an old enterprise grade Intel 600gb SSD and also use that drive as a "scratch disk" since it is fast and has just stupid write endurance.

In other news, Ch9 WSWP is still very unpredictable for performance. I haven't really messed with the setup any as I intend to get an RTLSDR and then see what I can learn from that. As such, can multipath be "seen" with an RTLSDR?


----------



## lifespeed

Prototype3a said:


> For what it's worth....
> 
> I have a Synology DS1817 connected via 10gbe to a netgear switch that has two 10gbe ports and my desktop (Ryzen 2700x/Quadro P2000) runs Plex server and also has a 10gbe network card. I have a separate 5 port 1gbe switch that the two HDHR quattros are plugged into. Each HDHR has an Antenna's Direct "UVSJ" to combine UHF and VHF antennas up on my mast. I keep the Plex metadata on an old enterprise grade Intel 600gb SSD and also use that drive as a "scratch disk" since it is fast and has just stupid write endurance.
> 
> In other news, Ch9 WSWP is still very unpredictable for performance. I haven't really messed with the setup any as I intend to get an RTLSDR and then see what I can learn from that. As such, can multipath be "seen" with an RTLSDR?



Nice network setup. I just upgraded to 10Gb optical as well. It's overkill, except for those large file movements over the network.


You can see multipath by demodulationg the OFDM signal and looking at the error vector magnitude (EVM), particularly as it changes with multipath conditions. Something your tuner reports as signal quality, usually in percent. A spectrum analyzer (a bit generous of a term for the RTLSDR) would usually break up EVM into phase and magnitude error, possibly giving you a bit more insight into the signal problem.


One of the key characteristics of multipath is it's variability, and I suspect the phase error might be worse than the magnitude error, but I don't know for sure. You can probably confirm multipath well enough with a good tuner if you're just looking to fix your TV reception. But if you want to experiment, sure, RTLSDR.


----------



## lifespeed

*Antenna mast chimney mount*

I thought I had the mast chimney mount figured out: Concrete anchor into my pre-cast concrete chimney using these Penninger Radio PMB-200 mounts. I'm fortunate to have a sturdy concrete chimney instead of brick, and will be running two each 2" X 8' X 1/8" wall thickness sections of antenna mast and a mast joiner clamp (I went for overkill with the MC-200-12). I'm going to take advantage of the strong chimney and masts, pushing the unsupported length to 12' above the chimney to mount two UHF X-beam antennae and a full-band Winegard HD5030 VHF. So I need some space around that VHV on the bottom.



Then a contractor friend of mine told me he would never put concrete anchors into a chimney. Although this isn't crumbly brick, but pre-cast concrete. I have considered that high-strength epoxied-in 1/4-20" threaded rod would be pretty darn strong. But now he has me second guessing myself on the attachment method.


I have seen the corner-mount chimney straps described as heavy duty simply by using 4 straps instead of two. But they only accept 1-1/2" mast, although I'm sure I could modify them (X 4, what a PITA!?!) to accept 2" mast buy installing 2" U-bolts through drilled holes in the bracket.


What would you do? Trust the 1969 concrete chimney won't be weakened by epoxied anchors, or try to make a strap mount work, X4?


----------



## Jim McC

Are there any good smaller outdoor antennas worth buying ? I just need high VHF and UHF. The antenna towers are 29 miles from my house. I have a large Winegard Yagi antenna I have to move, and a smaller antenna would be much easier to mount on the side of my house. At antennaweb.org the channels we watch show up as red and blue. 

Thanks for any advice.


----------



## Calaveras

Jim McC said:


> Are there any good smaller outdoor antennas worth buying ? I just need high VHF and UHF. The antenna towers are 29 miles from my house. I have a large Winegard Yagi antenna I have to move, and a smaller antenna would be much easier to mount on the side of my house. At antennaweb.org the channels we watch show up as red and blue.
> 
> Thanks for any advice.



Please read the stickies at the top before asking antenna questions. We have no idea what your antenna requirements might be. Post a link to your Rabbitears report. What antenna do you have now? People have completely different ideas as to what a "large antenna" is.


----------



## Calaveras

lifespeed said:


> What would you do? Trust the 1969 concrete chimney won't be weakened by epoxied anchors, or try to make a strap mount work, X4?



Okay, taking my cue from what you recently said. Do it the right way, not the easy way. 

Two sections of Rohn 25 with an eave bracket will hold your 2" mast nicely. It's also easy to work on. I only use towers these days unless it's a very small antenna.


----------



## DeweyNC

lifespeed said:


> I thought I had the mast chimney mount figured out: Concrete anchor into my pre-cast concrete chimney using these Penninger Radio PMB-200 mounts. I'm fortunate to have a sturdy concrete chimney instead of brick, and will be running two each 2" X 8' X 1/8" wall thickness sections of antenna mast and a mast joiner clamp (I went for overkill with the MC-200-12). I'm going to take advantage of the strong chimney and masts, pushing the unsupported length to 12' above the chimney to mount two UHF X-beam antennae and a full-band Winegard HD5030 VHF. So I need some space around that VHV on the bottom.
> 
> 
> 
> Then a contractor friend of mine told me he would never put concrete anchors into a chimney. Although this isn't crumbly brick, but pre-cast concrete. I have considered that high-strength epoxied-in 1/4-20" threaded rod would be pretty darn strong. But now he has me second guessing myself on the attachment method.
> 
> 
> I have seen the corner-mount chimney straps described as heavy duty simply by using 4 straps instead of two. But they only accept 1-1/2" mast, although I'm sure I could modify them (X 4, what a PITA!?!) to accept 2" mast buy installing 2" U-bolts through drilled holes in the bracket.
> 
> 
> What would you do? Trust the 1969 concrete chimney won't be weakened by epoxied anchors, or try to make a strap mount work, X4?





Just in case
I made this mount to clamp around my chimney.
All pieces I bought at my local Lowes.
I bought the largest alltread to fit the holes (1/2").
I even bought my tv pole mounts & 10ft conduit pole there.
(I made 2 of these mounts to retain the pole)

All-Thread threaded rod

Flatbar channel





.


----------



## lifespeed

Calaveras said:


> Okay, taking my cue from what you recently said. Do it the right way, not the easy way.
> 
> Two sections of Rohn 25 with an eave bracket will hold your 2" mast nicely. It's also easy to work on. I only use towers these days unless it's a very small antenna.



Nice setup, I see you brought your antennae with you when you moved. While your point is well taken, the chimney has an abundance of structural strength. It is really a matter of suitable attachment. The eave sides of my house a tower would interfere with my camper, or would be in the middle of the sidewalk. There are other locations for an unsupported tower, but the chimney is more than strong enough to do it the right way.




DeweyNC said:


> Just in case
> I made this mount to clamp around my chimney.



I think you're right with the clamp approach. No relying on concrete anchors or wobbly corner brackets. The point load of the brackets is distributed across the entire chimney. It would be only a bit of fabrication, good idea.


----------



## rabbit73

*Static Multipath*



Prototype3a said:


> In other news, Ch9 WSWP is still very unpredictable for performance. I haven't really messed with the setup any as I intend to get an RTLSDR and then see what I can learn from that. As such, can multipath be "seen" with an RTLSDR?


There are two types of multipath, static and dynamic. I will cover static first.

Notches in a scan of the channel might indicate a multipath problem, sometimes not. It depends upon the shape of the signal when the RTL-SDR scanner software crosses that channel.

Channel 13 in my avatar to the left was multipath with an indoor antenna. The signal was strong enough, but the image was frozen; too many errors. This is the TV screen that was at the same time:










I moved the antenna to the center of the bedroom in a high traffic area (of course); the reception was excellent:



















It is also possible to have a flat scan but the tuner can't decode the signal. When Trip in VA was living in Chattanooga, he had an unusual multipath problem:



Trip in VA said:


> What's strange is that the multipath here doesn't really show on the spectrum analyzer I have. The signals all look flat, they just don't decode. And I've moved my outdoor antenna all over the deck in every possible position.
> 
> http://www.rabbitears.info/specan/chatt/
> 
> I did a side-by-side on WSB and WDSI because WSB decodes and WDSI does not.
> 
> - Trip












Trip's solution was to put the antenna in a trash can which narrowed the acceptance angle of the antenna and rejected out-of-phase reflections.



Trip in VA said:


> Success!
> 
> I bought a metal trash can from ACE Hardware on my way home this evening and in my bedroom, I stuck my Silver Sensor inside it aimed in the direction of the transmitters. Voilá, 100% signal quality on WFLI, high 80's on WDSI, WTCI and WYHB-LD. The Silver Sensor is too small for the VHFs but it's a start!
> 
> - Trip





















A possible explanation for a flat scan when there is nultipath is given by Dr. Bendov in his paper _DTV Coverage and Service Prediction, Measurement and Performance Indices_:


> page 4
> VIII. SNR AND “FIELD STRENGTH” MEASUREMENT VIA SPECTRUM INTEGRATION
> 
> Defining the Signal as the total received power and the Noise as AWGN (Additive White Gaussian Noise) leads to the conclusion that the SNR at the input to the receiver increases with increased multipath.
> 
> In urban and indoor situations, there may not even be a main signal, only reflections, some of which are of equal magnitude.
> 
> If all multipath signals are part of the signal power, then the SNR margin may not be an indicative figure of merit of reception robustness. In any case, even accurate measurement of the total received power may not be trivial.
> 
> The integrated signal power is not just the Desired Signal power. It includes, Man-made, Galactic, and thermal noises and residual transmitter generated in-band noise. It also includes some but not necessarily all multipath signals. For example, pairs of identical and asymmetric echoes, one of positive amplitude and positive delay relative to the main signal and one of negative amplitude and negative delay relative to the main signal, will cause only a second-order distortion of the displayed power spectrum. They will create group delay. *Thus, in a multipath channel, a pair of such echoes would measure high SNR when using the spectrum integration technique whereas in reality, the true SNR would be much lower.*
> 
> There may be other combinations of echoes that would yield essentially flat spectrum display.


----------



## Prototype3a

Using "Kindorf" for a chimney mount is an interesting solution. I probably would have turned the channel around so the flat side was on the chimney and used the t-nuts designed for the channel to actually attach the mast.

Personally, I'm a huge fan of "epoxy" (two part adhesive) based masonry anchors. Specifically Wej-It Power-Sert stainless steel anchors.

On our house, I used SteelTek "lego" in 1-1/4" (sold at Lowes) and some big structural screws to install a mast to the structure of the house. In hindsight, lagging Kindorf to the house might have been a better solution for the house to mast connection so I could have adjusted the position of the mast on the house or take it down but leave the hard point on the wall of the house.

That trashcan antenna shield reminds me that I need to download that antenna simulator software and see if I can't figure out a potential plan for a larger reflector on the big VHF.


----------



## rabbit73

*Dynamic Multipath*



Prototype3a said:


> In other news, Ch9 WSWP is still very unpredictable for performance. I haven't really messed with the setup any as I intend to get an RTLSDR and then see what I can learn from that. As such, can multipath be "seen" with an RTLSDR?


Dynamic multipath can be caused by moving vehicles, aircraft, or swaying tree branches in the signal path.

Yesterday was windy, so I did some newbie videos of channel 16 with my old Canon point-and-shoot digital camera:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8gsw9t1zsr7mpxo/CH16TreeInPath2.mp4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ig3va499k237ayu/CH16TreeInPath4.mp4?dl=0

Channel 16 reception was stable in spite of the wind; it had a high SNR.



















The VHF-High channels didn't do as well. They were strong enough, but their SNR was reduced by a higher noise level.










Attachment 3 is a larger version.


----------



## Falcon_77

I'm heading back up to Washington tomorrow with the 608 MHz LTE filter, which I hope will help with the apparent overload problem on UHF. I'm also taking a VHF bowtie with me to see how it does. VHF is super noisy in the attic. I know, I know...

Here are the signals up there.

https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=93095

And here are my current attic results with a DB4e (actually a DB8e but I only put up half on the early Feb trip) and only part of the Stellar VHF Yagi (not in a good spot). The attic is much like most modern home attics. Filled with insulation and framing and hard to move around in.

https://m.rabbitears.info/index.php?request=tvdx_grid&tid=1047C0BC&tno=1&sort=all&hours=168&tzone=PT&unit=&auto=Y

If I don't get the results I want this time, it will be time to do what you have all been telling me in July (get it outside!)


----------



## lifespeed

Falcon_77 said:


> I'm heading back up to Washington tomorrow with the 608 MHz LTE filter, which I hope will help with the apparent overload problem on UHF.



We all know outside is better. An XB16A (or XB10A if less gain is required) X-beam antenna will introduce additional "filtering" of LTE as the gain curve starts to roll off around 600MHz. Whether this is a solution for you I couldn't say.


----------



## Falcon_77

lifespeed said:


> We all know outside is better. An XB16A (or XB10A if less gain is required) X-beam antenna will introduce additional "filtering" of LTE as the gain curve starts to roll off around 600MHz. Whether this is a solution for you I couldn't say.


One of these? XB16A (Group A)

https://www.aerialsandtv.com/knowledge/aerials/aerial-performance-reports/xb10a-xb16a-aerial-performance-reports

Been there and done that. I didn't find it much better than anything here in the US. So I gave it away. And shipping wasn't cheap from the UK. I've tested the new LTE filter here in SoCal and I think it will do well. We'll see.


----------



## lifespeed

Calaveras said:


> Okay, taking my cue from what you recently said. Do it the right way, not the easy way.
> 
> Two sections of Rohn 25 with an eave bracket will hold your 2" mast nicely. It's also easy to work on. I only use towers these days unless it's a very small antenna.



How far are your transmitter(s)? Do you still need the extreme setup at your new location, or is it more a case of you already had it? It doesn't look like you're facing nearby obstacles other than cactus


----------



## Calaveras

lifespeed said:


> How far are your transmitter(s)? Do you still need the extreme setup at your new location, or is it more a case of you already had it? It doesn't look like you're facing nearby obstacles other than cactus



All the important stations are located on Mt. Bigelow which is 77 miles away over a 1 edge path. The edge is 34 miles from here. I do need good antennas. The biggest antennas are on the 20' tower because signals are not as good as they are on my ham radio tower with antennas at 65'. On that tower I'm using my 37 element LPDA on a 9' boom and a homemade 10 element yagi for VHF which is very similar to the 30-2475. I can't ignore VHF because my ABC station is on channel 9.

My Rabbitears report:

https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=11616

I can receive all the stations down to K35OU although that one is marginal but what do you expect for station with just 450 watts in my direction at 77 miles? 

I've attached a spectrum analyzer trace of the UHF band here. All the Mt. Bigelow stations are labeled in magenta and are in the same direction. This a composite scan. All the stations labeled in yellow are scattered over 6 different directions.

Not much vegetation around here except weeds, grass and mesquite trees topping out at about 15'.

My only reception frustration is KMSB (FOX) on RF 25. It is tied for the strongest signal but it shares the channel with a low power Mexican station just 25 miles south of the border or 30 miles from here. There are 3 stations down there on RF 15, 25 and 34. All are quite strong. My KMSB reception is intermittent as no antenna has enough rejection to completely eliminate the co-channel interference. They could have put it on RF 24 which is open down here. KUVE RF34 suffers the same problem except it's a Spanish station and I don't watch it.

I'm hoping that when ATSC 3.0 gets to Tucson that the station will be on an open channel on Mt. Bigelow.

Chuck


----------



## lifespeed

Calaveras said:


> My only reception frustration is KMSB (FOX) on RF 25. It is tied for the strongest signal but it shares the channel with a low power Mexican station just 25 miles south of the border or 30 miles from here. There are 3 stations down there on RF 15, 25 and 34. All are quite strong. My KMSB reception is intermittent as no antenna has enough rejection to completely eliminate the co-channel interference. They could have put it on RF 24 which is open down here. KUVE RF34 suffers the same problem except it's a Spanish station and I don't watch it.
> 
> I'm hoping that when ATSC 3.0 gets to Tucson that the station will be on an open channel on Mt. Bigelow.



You've got a Border Blaster!! 






Yes, you need to wield the big guns. Mind if I ask the reason for your move from the foothills in CA?


----------



## Calaveras

lifespeed said:


> Mind if I ask the reason for your move from the foothills in CA?



Not appropriate subject matter for this forum. PM me if you really want to know.

Chuck


----------



## Falcon_77

I'm in WA now and I installed the new CM B71 filter and it helps, but this illustrates how hard it is to filter something so close with consumer grade stuff.

I will be doing more work tomorrow, including putting in the VHF bowtie.


----------



## lifespeed

Falcon_77 said:


> I'm in WA now and I installed the new CM B71 filter and it helps, but this illustrates how hard it is to filter something so close with consumer grade stuff.
> 
> I will be doing more work tomorrow, including putting in the VHF bowtie.


It looks pretty good, and you can see the front end of your measuring receiver (hobbyist SDR?) overloading and causing spectral regrowth. Probably what is happening in your tuner. But the filter, while not eliminating the signal, does reduce the level somewhat.

So what does your tuner think of the filter? Can you tell if it is less saturated? Despite your protestations, I think the combination of a repack antenna like the XB16A with it's better impedance match to a filter would do even better. Try a 1 or 2 dB pad between the antenna and filter to help prevent unwanted interaction between the reactive source and load, although this may not be necessary with the narrowband antenna.

I don't quite follow why you gave away the "better" XB16A. Because it wasn't enough better? Did you try it in combination with the filter? I guess this is all happening inside your attic with lots of confounding variables, so really pointless to read much into it. To do experiments you need to remove uncontrolled variables.

If you're passing judgement based on attic experiments, don't.


----------



## Falcon_77

UHF is doing considerably better with the CM 608 MHz filter, but I might throw in some attenuation.

What's been taking most of my time this trip is the Hi-V side. 13 isn't bad, but 11 and especially 9 are really tough.

Here's where I'm at on it. See pic. I've tried the bow-tie and GE inside in the new attic location and outside (side of the house - not the rooftop). Outside the window was a bit worse and it is about 8' lower so it made sense.

I'm going to put the Stellar 30-2475 back online next at the new attic location (now that I have floorboards I installed, where I need them).


----------



## rabbit73

Falcon_77 said:


> What's been taking most of my time this trip is the Hi-V side. 13 isn't bad, but 11 and especially 9 are really tough.


https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=93095




























Looks difficult.


----------



## Falcon_77

Indeed it is for RF 9. I didn't get a chance to set up the Stellar in the new spot. I spent about half the trip laying more floorboards and pulling weeds in the yard (which I didn't even finish). I needed another two days. Hopefully in early July and I might just go straight to the 30-2476 then.


----------



## rabbit73

*Using an SDR to Help Find the Best Antenna Location for a Problem Channel*



Prototype3a said:


> In other news, Ch9 WSWP is still very unpredictable for performance. I haven't really messed with the setup any as I intend to get an RTLSDR and then see what I can learn from that. As such, can multipath be "seen" with an RTLSDR?
> https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=84216





Prototype3a said:


> To be clear, I can receive WSWP but it seems that the precise positioning of the antenna is critical and so I'm trying to better understand the factors that impact that and if there are modifications to the big antenna that I could make to improve the performance or simply make it more forgiving. One thing I had thought about was to add more or larger reflector rods to help it to reject unwanted signals.


I'm having trouble receiving RF 11 which is ABC. I didn't have any trouble with it in my old room when it was on 13; in my new room there is a tree in the signal path.

Being able to measure signal strength and signal quality are certainly helpful, but being able to see the shape of the transmitted signal with an SDR can be extremely helpful in finding the best location for an antenna.





































As a double check, on another day I tried the RTL-SDR dongle:



















Although it is encouraging to see a flat channel scan (with sufficient SNR), it shouldn't be interpreted as a guarantee of reliable reception. It is possible to have a flat scan, but the tuner is unable to decode the signal.

In my case, with channel 11, it was a reliable indicator.


----------



## Falcon_77

rabbit73 said:


> Being able to measure signal strength and signal quality are certainly helpful, but being able to see the shape of the transmitted signal with an SDR can be extremely helpful in finding the best location for an antenna.


I agree, rabbit, though I need to do more of this in Washington. I'm actually using the same GE (the lower left one) in the attic there right now. It did better than my homebrew VHF-Hi bowtie. It's pretty effective for its size and certainly easier to move around in the attic vs. a big Stellar.

I hope you don't have much Lo-E glass over there. It is widely used in SoCal on any newer installations and isn't kind to OTA and cell reception for that matter. That plus stucco siding.

Speaking of a big Stellar antenna, attached is a pic of my Stellar which I have now mounted on the deck. It seems to be working well, but it's hard to tell yet as I have been getting some powerful tropo out of San Diego lately. Oh no, there's the rotation problem again.

I'm using the CM7777HD on "low-gain" mode after bringing it back down after my WA trip last weekend. It's doing well in this role. I am using a Stellar combiner to feed it.


----------



## Falcon_77

Also, here's a nifty device that I found on eBay. I'm testing it out, but I think it will be very useful for helping overload problems. It's a RS 15-678 variable attenuator.


----------



## Larry Kenney

Wow! That's an impressive list of stations you're receiving, Falcon! Congratulations!


----------



## Falcon_77

Thanks, Larry! Well, it's just the tropo, but it does help to have antennas pointing that way.

Ok all, I have two HDHR's set up now, one for LA and the other for SD. How do I figure out which one is being used by the HDHR software program to actually watch them and next I need to figure out how to get them to pass data to the SmartTVs.

Perhaps there's an HDHR thread somewhere on AVS I should hop onto as this is going to be a software issue now vs. hardware.


----------



## rabbit73

Falcon_77 said:


> I hope you don't have much Lo-E glass over there. It is widely used in SoCal on any newer installations and isn't kind to OTA and cell reception for that matter. That plus stucco siding.


My first exposure to the Low-E glass problem was in Sept 2008, so I was wondering about it now:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/1064806-window-blocking-my-antenna.html










I made some tests with an original CM4221 in the window. The retirement home that I'm in is fairly old, so I doubt that the glass is Low-E. My measurements seem to indicate that, but I wasn't able to confirm it because I couldn't get the window fully open; there is a safety stop that keeps the window from opening any more than 5". I could build a little UHF Yagi and stick it out that opening.

I first compared the GE29884 with the Original CM4221:


Code:


[B]
GE29884 vs Original CM4221 at Left Window

RF          GE29884            CM4221
          dBmV   dBm        dBmV    dBm
16       +7.8   -41.0      +10.9   -37.9
33       +4.7   -44.1       +9.4   -39.4
40       -7.5   -56.3       +3.6   -45.2[/B]

Next, I wanted to see how much the venetian blind attenuated the signals:

Channel 16, CM4221
Blind down, slats closed: about -10 dBmV 
Blind down, slats open: about -10 dBmV
Blind up: about +10 dBmV

So, the venetian blind attenuates the signal about 20 dB.
The window sill is about 9" deep. The space between the glass and the blind is about 7-1/2", which is enough room for a panel antenna.

The glass is double layer with an air space between. There are plastic muntins between the two layers of glass to divide the window into 6 lites. The screen appears to be plastic.



> Speaking of a big Stellar antenna, attached is a pic of my Stellar which I have now mounted on the deck. It seems to be working well, but it's hard to tell yet as I have been getting some powerful tropo out of San Diego lately. Oh no, there's the rotation problem again.


Nice photo of your antennas on the deck. I edited your photo and told it to behave.


----------



## rabbit73

Falcon_77 said:


> Speaking of a big Stellar antenna, attached is a pic of my Stellar which I have now mounted on the deck. It seems to be working well, but it's hard to tell yet as I have been getting some powerful tropo out of San Diego lately.












Your photo is excellent; I know an excellent photo when I see it, because I was a Government photographer for 30 years. While staring at your photo, I noticed something unusual: the 1st Director is between the Reflector and the Driven Element (DE). Usually, the 1st Director would be mounted in front of the DE.










I don't understand why you did that. It might compromise the performance of the antenna; how much, is difficult to say without modeling or range tests. As usual with an off-shore product, the instructions aren't very good.


----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> While staring at your photo, I noticed something unusual: the 1st Director is between the Reflector and the Driven Element (DE). Usually, the 1st Director would be mounted in front of the DE.
> I don't understand why you did that. It might compromise the performance of the antenna; how much, is difficult to say without modeling or range tests.



I saw that too. I'm about 99% sure that is not right. It will have a major impact on performance.


----------



## Neil L

rabbit73 said:


> ...I noticed something unusual: the 1st Director is between the Reflector and the Driven Element (DE). Usually, the 1st Director would be mounted in front of the DE.


I noticed that as well, and wondered if it was intentional for some reason, or just a misstep when assembling the antenna? I think the only effect of the misplaced element would be to move the driven element farther from the reflector. That would affect SWR and gain somewhat at the design frequencies, I would think.


----------



## jspENC

It's not right. You need to take the back section off, and swing the back boom the other way with the VHF loop at the very end, then reinstall the reflector section.


----------



## Prototype3a

Airspy R2 vs SDRplay RSP1A

The SDRplay seems like a nice upgrade over the RTLSDR but is the Airspy R2 worth the extra ~$50 over the RSP1A?


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> Airspy R2 vs SDRplay RSP1A
> 
> The SDRplay seems like a nice upgrade over the RTLSDR but is the Airspy R2 worth the extra ~$50 over the RSP1A?


 The RSP1A has a 10 MHz bandwidth, so you can see a whole channel in real time with the SDRuno software. You only see part of a channel in real time with the RTL-SDR.com dongle and the SDR# software. There is also spectrum analyzer software for the RSP1A. Big advantage for that upgrade. 










Video:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vrc82x4u45zll0a/CH11-GE29884- 2020-05-31 14-31-20.mp4?dl=0

Going to the Airspy R2 and SDR# software is more expensive. It can also do a whole channel, but I couldn't resist because of the included Spectrum Spy spectrum analyzer software.





































Video, no sound:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gecnrpd46wpy5gv/Spectrum Spy 7-9-11 2020-05-31 15-17-32.mp4?dl=0

Video, has audio:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1gkjgk199n26zky/Spectrum Spy 2020-05-31 19-52-12.mp4?dl=0


----------



## Prototype3a

I didn't realize that the lower half of the spectrum spy display scans....like... well... sonar.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> I didn't realize that the lower half of the spectrum spy display scans....like... well... sonar.


The lower half is called a "waterfall." The color of a signal is determined by its strength. If the signal is intermittent, it will show a gap. When the gap occurred is marked by a date-time stamp. It's kind of neat, but I'm more interested in the upper half of the display.


----------



## Falcon_77

rabbit73 said:


> While staring at your photo, I noticed something unusual: the 1st Director is between the Reflector and the Driven Element (DE). Usually, the 1st Director would be mounted in front of the DE.
> 
> I don't understand why you did that. It might compromise the performance of the antenna; how much, is difficult to say without modeling or range tests. As usual with an off-shore product, the instructions aren't very good.


Well, this helped me wake up on a slow Monday morning. You know how sometimes one doesn't see the obvious when looking right at it? I've re-assembled the 2nd front section and the reflector a number of times and I didn't notice this problem on the main section!

I've been more concerned about the extra spacing on that UHF antenna between the two sections, saying that doesn't look right... I can take a closer pic of that to see what you all think on that.

My best guess is the instructions weren't clear and I must have been thinking the driven should be right next to the mast mount, but as you can see I drilled my own holes further up the boom so it's not next to the mast even now.

Thanks all! This was a mistake in my assembly way back when (2 years ago I got it I think) and I didn't question it. I know better and should have noticed this before. Thanks again for setting me straight and I'm glad I posted the pic.

I will fix it and take another pic. I put the UHF on top in the interim as well, as it's easier to deal with in that position. Also, I put up a much simpler VHF-Hi Yagi (5 elements only) and it is almost as good as my busted build. Well, I will be very curious how much better the Stellar gets when built correctly!

Best,


----------



## Calaveras

I posted this over on the SF thread but it's probably of more interest here.

DIY 14 element high VHF yagi with full data:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-l...15-san-francisco-ca-ota-621.html#post59730934

Teaser image attached.


----------



## Falcon_77

I fixed the Stellar and attached is a pic of my current antenna setup towards San Diego. It is difficult to measure with tropo being so unpredictable, but compared to UHF (if even valid in the tropo world) it appears to be a fair amount better than the 5 element I had up temporarily and my prior configuration. I will keep watch on it for a few days.

One thing I will do to make it better is to remove the 6dB attenuator I have on the pre-amp input side to fit the 7777HD pre-amp into the water resistant Stellar combiner case.

Also attached is a closer pic of the UHF antenna showing the extra gap in the middle of directors 9 and 10. Maybe I have the front section backwards? Thoughts? ...I recall that I tried the other way, but the drill holes don't line up. And oh yes, dare I forget that the front most section is in my closet.

Edit: I found the instructions for it, which appear to confirm I have constructed those sections as intended, but is it ideal?

https://manuals.solidsignal.com/HDB91X-MANUAL.PDF


----------



## Calaveras

Falcon_77 said:


> Also attached is a closer pic of the UHF antenna showing the extra gap in the middle of directors 9 and 10. Maybe I have the front section backwards? Thoughts? ...I recall that I tried the other way, but the drill holes don't line up. And oh yes, dare I forget that the front most section is in my closet.
> 
> Edit: I found the instructions for it, which appear to confirm I have constructed those sections as intended, but is it ideal?



Chances are it is correct. Computer optimized and modeled antennas produce spacings and element sizes that do not uniformly taper towards the front as you might expect. The only thing that might not be optimum is that every director is the same size but they probably optimized the design with that limitation built in.

The 14 element high VHF yagi I just built has directors of decreasing size until director 10 which is longer and director 11 which is longer still. Then D12 is a shorter again. Same goes for the spacings. Some of the front spacings are much wider than you'd expect.


----------



## johnny antenna

Falcon_77 said:


> ....
> Also attached is a closer pic of the UHF antenna showing the extra gap in the middle of directors 9 and 10. Maybe I have the front section backwards? Thoughts? ...I recall that I tried the other way, but the drill holes don't line up. And oh yes, dare I forget that the front most section is in my closet.
> 
> Edit: I found the instructions for it, which appear to confirm I have constructed those sections as intended, but is it ideal?
> 
> https://manuals.solidsignal.com/HDB91X-MANUAL.PDF


Your Stellar 30-2370 antenna is right. The spacing is different on about every director. It jumps from about 3 1/8" to 5 3/4" there.
The Antennas Direct 91xg has totally different spacing. The middle 10 or so directors has the same spacing @ 5 1/2".


----------



## Falcon_77

Calaveras said:


> Chances are it is correct. Computer optimized and modeled antennas produce spacings and element sizes that do not uniformly taper towards the front as you might expect. The only thing that might not be optimum is that every director is the same size but they probably optimized the design with that limitation built in.
> 
> The 14 element high VHF yagi I just built has directors of decreasing size until director 10 which is longer and director 11 which is longer still. Then D12 is a shorter again. Same goes for the spacings. Some of the front spacings are much wider than you'd expect.


Ok, thanks. I won't mess with it then.

And that 14 ele Hi-V looks very nice. Your parts list would seem different than the one one the website link. Yours looks professional. Do you have a parts list?

Also, it has a direct 75 Ohm feed or is there a balun at the feedpoint? A choke balun anyway, I suppose, w/o a transformer, but I'm curious to know. The size of the reflector on the Stellar definitely adds to windload and being noticed.


----------



## Calaveras

Falcon_77 said:


> Ok, thanks. I won't mess with it then.
> 
> And that 14 ele Hi-V looks very nice. Your parts list would seem different than the one one the website link. Yours looks professional. Do you have a parts list?
> 
> Also, it has a direct 75 Ohm feed or is there a balun at the feedpoint? A choke balun anyway, I suppose, w/o a transformer, but I'm curious to know. The size of the reflector on the Stellar definitely adds to windload and being noticed.



Not exactly, but here are the main parts:

Boom is square .75" OD with 0.062" walls. I used a 5/8" x 6" round tube to splice the boom pieces.

Elements are all 3/8" tubing except the driven element which is solid. I needed to drill and tap the ends for a 6/32 screw to hold the coax.

I used 1" acrylic cubes to mount the elements. See attached image.

I used a piece of 1/4" delrin to mount the driven element.

It is a 75 ohm feed. I used 3 ferrite beads to make a choke balun.

The boom to mast clamp can be plastic or metal.


----------



## Falcon_77

Thank you, Calaveras.

I'm thinking about it more for Washington vs. here in SoCal. Especially since I don't have to make it look pretty in the attic there.

However, I need to tackle my Hi-V noise issues up there. I can still remote into the computer with an SDR up there (and hopefully Windows won't do something silly before I return next month).

Here are a few SDR caps showing RF 9, the most difficult, currently on the GE antenna (29884). The V side is separate from the U side as well, so I'm using the GE only for V.

The noise spikes look similar to some Ethernet spikes I squashed here in SoCal. Any other comments are welcome, but I certainly need more signal and less noise on Hi-V up there. Trying the eaves didn't help last time. I think the hardy board (?) siding was too close behind it too. I should check to see if that's what it really is.


----------



## Calaveras

Falcon_77 said:


> Here are a few SDR caps showing RF 9, the most difficult, currently on the GE antenna (29884).



I'm having a hard time interpreting what I'm seeing on your analyzer displays. Do you have an image that shows the entire channel, like 8 MHz wide? To me the noise levels looks incredibly low. -120 dBm is a very low number. It requires a very narrow RBW to get that low. What is the RBW set to? I use 100 KHz.

Channel 9 looks like it's only a few dB above the noise. What should the noise floor be with no signal?

I'm used to seeing an image that looks like the attached image of channel 9. The pilot carrier is about 10 dB above the rest of the signal with an RBW of 100KHz and the noise floor is around -100 dBm. Yes, that's a little bit of power line noise in the channel 10 blank space.


----------



## rabbit73

It looks like Falcon_77 is using SDR Console software to have remote access to his SDR in WA; he can correct me if I'm wrong. The bandwidth is set to less than the width of CH 9 and the gain is set too low to show the full channel above the noise floor; we only see the pilot which is at 186.31 MHz.










This is what he showed us earlier; not enough SNR above the noise:










The dBm values are often only relative, not absolute for SDRs.


----------



## Falcon_77

I'm using 2MHz of BW as the laptop up there has serious CPU trouble at 8MHz. I could try SDRUno which will allow me to decimate the IQ (something which SDR Console lacks).

Right, as rabbit said, the noise floor should be taken as relative, not absolute. I could calibrate it if I had something to accurately measure it. W/o noise or any input, the floor is typically around -135 to -140dBm on this SDR and program.

Attached is a cap of part of blank channel 10, next to 9 and 11 which are my biggest trouble stations. This cap shows the gain settings (pretty much neutral).

I marked, in red, some of the spikes on the attached pic to show these might be strong enough to cause problems and they are throughout most of Hi-V from what I can tell. I think tracking these down will help get the noise floor down a bit.


----------



## rabbit73

Falcon_77 said:


> I'm using 2MHz of BW as the laptop up there has serious CPU trouble at 8MHz. I could try SDRUno which will allow me to decimate the IQ (something which SDR Console lacks).
> 
> Right, as rabbit said, the noise floor should be taken as relative, not absolute. I could calibrate it if I had something to accurately measure it. W/o noise or any input, the floor is typically around -135 to -140dBm on this SDR and program.
> 
> Attached is a cap of part of blank channel 10, next to 9 and 11 which are my biggest trouble stations. This cap shows the gain settings (pretty much neutral).
> 
> I marked, in red, some of the spikes on the attached pic to show these might be strong enough to cause problems and they are throughout most of Hi-V from what I can tell. I think tracking these down will help get the noise floor down a bit.


I agree, the spikes look serious enough to interfere with reception. 

The way I adjust the gain with my SDRs for the most accurate representation of a channel and the ambient noise is to start with the gain low and then slowly increase it until the SNR of the channel is at MAX; stopping there and not increasing any more. (Well, actually you have to pass that point and double back.)

I use a slightly different technique with the RTL-SDR.com dongle with open-source spectrum analyzer software: I increase the dongle gain until the noise floor just starts to rise.

Under certain conditions, the dBm scale of the RSP1A is calibrated:
 SDRplay RSP2 for accurate RF power Measurement










*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRR-x_TjOp4

*I checked the concept with the equipment that I have:


----------



## lifespeed

rabbit73 said:


> The dBm values are often only relative, not absolute for SDRs.



In addition to your other points, this ^^.


That SDR is not a $20K spectrum analyzer with a NIST-traceable calibration. Absolute values in dBm are near-meaningless, relative values rely on the inherent linearity of the design. It is useful, but only hobbyist grade. Which I guess is stating the obvious, but people see "dBm" on the display and think it's real.


----------



## rabbit73

lifespeed said:


> In addition to your other points, this ^^.
> 
> That SDR is not a $20K spectrum analyzer with a NIST-traceable calibration. Absolute values in dBm are near-meaningless, relative values rely on the inherent linearity of the design. It is useful, but only hobbyist grade. Which I guess is stating the obvious, but people see "dBm" on the display and think it's real.


Yup, that they do. It's even more confusing when there are two dBm scales.


----------



## bernieoc

I am moving to an apartment with a balcony - I made a test (brief access to apt) with a homemade
ch 3 dipole (89 1/2 inches) - that receives uhf and ch 3 and13.
It was good for the 2 vhf channels and all uhf channels - with precise direction.
Two questions :
1. 13 is moving to 7 in July - will the Ch3 dipole handle ch 7 as well as it did with 13
2. will using a thin window/door short transition coax degrade the signal. (no holes to drill)
( I don't move for another month - trying to plan my installation.)


----------



## rabbit73

bernieoc said:


> I am moving to an apartment with a balcony - I made a test (brief access to apt) with a homemade
> ch 3 dipole (89 1/2 inches) - that receives uhf and ch 3 and13.
> It was good for the 2 vhf channels and all uhf channels - with precise direction.
> Two questions :
> 1. 13 is moving to 7 in July - will the Ch3 dipole handle ch 7 as well as it did with 13
> 2. will using a thin window/door short transition coax degrade the signal. (no holes to drill)
> ( I don't move for another month - trying to plan my installation.)


Hello again, bernieoc.

Your CH 3 dipole isn't the right antenna for 13, but you are able to receive 13; you got lucky. You might also get lucky with 7; try it.

The short flat window coax jumper shouldn't degrade the signals very much, but there will be a gap that will let insects through.

Your signal report:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=104703

This Holland jumper is about 1/8" thick, is well protected, and has superior electrical characteristics:










This jumper is thinner, more fragile, and has inferior electrical characteristics:


----------



## nathill

Help me here guys.
Did bernioc receive WBRA (RF3) from 51 miles away with a home made dipole?
Wow!


----------



## rabbit73

nathill said:


> Help me here guys.
> Did bernioc receive WBRA (RF3) from 51 miles away with a home made dipole?
> Wow!


 I think it's possible. If I remember correctly, his new room is on the west side of the building; the WBRA signal is coming from the west.



bernieoc said:


> There is a balcony almost perpendicular to source - antenna not allowed - but ch 3 dipole as described (or rabbit ears) could be almost invisable - would need to get signal inside - balcony has glass panels tight shutting doors.
> 
> Thank you for clarifying the reception info. I am not clear on how to post the info - the immediate terrain on the Summit west's is actually lower than 1st floor - elevations could be 30/40/50/feet - the entire rear facing is well above a parking area and a lake with a wooded hilly view beyond.
> 
> It is clear I will have to try when I get there (requested upper floor) - meanwhile I will work on a DIY 88 inch almost invisible antenna.
> Thank you -












Ground slopes down in front of antenna:



















This might work:


----------



## Trip in VA

WBRA being so high up on Poor Mountain covers a lot of ground while still being line of sight. I got my VHF bowtie to work outside the window of a ground floor apartment in Lynchburg (53-ish miles, as I recall).

- Trip


----------



## Falcon_77

*RV type antenna for my SUV for a road trip.*

Hi all, I'm making a road trip and will be doing grabs for RE along the way. I've dabbled with the idea of making an omni type antenna for UHF and Hi-V, but there are commercial models out there for consideration, such as this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Directional-Amplified-Magnetic-Omni-Directional-Motorhome/dp/B07H46M4BD/ref=sr_1_13?dchild=1&keywords=rv+antenna&qid=1592602360&sr=8-13

What I was thinking of making is something like this FM omni antenna, but for Hi-V and/or UHF.

https://www.amazon.com/Stellar-Labs-30-2435-Outdoor-OMNIDIRECTIONAL/dp/B00DHHOZBI/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1PFBJ6GYEWFI6&dchild=1&keywords=stellar+labs+fm+antenna&qid=1592602457&s=electronics&sprefix=stellar+fm%2Celectronics%2C243&sr=1-2

Any thoughts? I can bring my Silver Sensor and some rabbit ears too of course.

Getting 1.0 signals on the fly is also "fun" and sometimes doable with transmitters up high and NOTHING in between the car and the transmitter. No hills, no cars, no signs, no trees, no planes, no birds, etc... But this will be the case in some places we will be driving thru.


----------



## jmccurrytech

Getting ready to have a Wineguard HD8200U installed next week. Going to do a eave mount with a 15 foot mast. I have a CM-7777HD preamp plus a Radio Shack FM Trap and a RCA VH226F Rotator. Live within 5 miles of a full power FM station (2 traps seem to be a must). I'm attempting to receive WGGS on VHF channel 2. I've included rabbitears and FM fool report.



https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=110207


----------



## rabbit73

jmccurrytech said:


> Getting ready to have a Wineguard HD8200U installed next week. Going to do a eave mount with a 15 foot mast. I have a CM-7777HD preamp plus a Radio Shack FM Trap and a RCA VH226F Rotator. Live within 5 miles of a full power FM station (2 traps seem to be a must). I'm attempting to receive WGGS on VHF channel 2. I've included rabbitears and FM fool report.
> 
> https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=110207


 Hello, jmccurrytech. Thank you for the signal reports.










The 8200 is the right antenna for your weak channel 2 signal and the FM trap is probably needed.

The 15 ft mast on an eave mount seems a little too much unless the mast goes all the way to the ground or it is guyed.

The great difference between the strength of WGGS and your strong local channels creates a problem. The preamp might be needed for WGGS, but your strongest channels will probably overload the preamp and your tuner under certain conditions.

The rabbitears.info signal report adds a negative correction factor to VHF-Low signals to allow for the higher noise level on that band. This correction factor is applied to the Field Strength in dBuV/m which lowers the ranking of that channel. You can see where it would rank without the correction factor by looking at the Signal Margin. 

The noise level from electrical interference on VHF-Low is very high. It reduces the SNR of signals, making reception more difficult.



















I suggest you try reception of WGGS first without the preamp.


----------



## Digital Rules

Agree about trying without the preamp first. A distribution amp may be a better choice if amplification is truly needed.

Also that rotor is very light duty and that's a heavy, wind catching antenna. I would use the shortest possible mast above the rotor, probably no more than six inches or so. That still may be too much for that rotor. . .


----------



## tylerSC

rabbit73 said:


> Hello, jmccurrytech. Thank you for the signal reports.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 8200 is the right antenna for your weak channel 2 signal and the FM trap is probably needed.
> 
> The 15 ft mast on an eave mount seems a little too much unless the mast goes all the way to the ground or it is guyed.
> 
> The great difference between the strength of WGGS and your strong local channels creates a problem. The preamp might be needed for WGGS, but your strongest channels will probably overload the preamp and your tuner under certain conditions.
> 
> The rabbitears.info signal report adds a negative correction factor to VHF-Low signals to allow for the higher noise level on that band. This correction factor is applied to the Field Strength in dBuV/m which lowers the ranking of that channel. You can see where it would rank without the correction factor by looking at the Signal Margin.
> 
> The noise level from electrical interference on VHF-Low is very high. It reduces the SNR of signals, making reception more difficult.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest you try reception of WGGS first without the preamp.


Even nearby in my local viewing area WGGS is now more problematic to receive since they moved from RF16 to RF2 last year during the repack. Used to come in easily but now a bit more strategic work is required with a VHF antenna and selective use of the amplifier. So at a further distance it may be more of a challenge.


----------



## ctdish

rabbit73 said:


> Hello, jmccurrytech.
> 
> 
> 
> The rabbitears.info signal report adds a negative correction factor to VHF-Low signals to allow for the higher noise level on that band. This correction factor is applied to the Field Strength in dBuV/m which lowers the ranking of that channel. You can see where it would rank without the correction factor by looking at the Signal Margin.
> 
> The noise level from electrical interference on VHF-Low is very high. It reduces the SNR of signals, making reception more difficult.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest you try reception of WGGS first without the preamp.



Maybe Tripp can comment on this. I don't see any place where their is a correction for low VHF ambient noise. His noise margin value seems to be the signal level above the one used by the FCC to define the grade B coverage area. The FCC assumed that the only source of noise received by the antenna would be thermal noise. It is the same level for all channels VHF and UHF. 

The ambient noise you measured looks to be 33 dB higher than was planned for so jmcurrytech's 14.9 signal margin becomes about a minus 18 signal margin. He needs to hope this predicted value is wrong.
John


----------



## rabbit73

*Correction Factors for VHF Noise in RabbitEars Signal Search Map Reports*



ctdish said:


> Maybe Tripp can comment on this. I don't see any place where their is a correction for low VHF ambient noise. His noise margin value seems to be the signal level above the one used by the FCC to define the grade B coverage area. The FCC assumed that the only source of noise received by the antenna would be thermal noise. It is the same level for all channels VHF and UHF.


When Trip was developing his new Signal Search Map, he asked me to be a Beta Tester. I noticed that the results for his TVStudy-based Signal Search Map didn't track with the results of a TVFool report. This was his answer:

Trip PM Quotes about correction factors for VHF noise

08-15-2018, 05:47 AM
Extract from PM 
Re: Strength Search Test Results


Trip in VA said:


> The minimum field strength for TV is a calculated figure that assumes things like receive antenna gain and line loss and the like, but does not take into account factors like VHF noise. Those values are 28 dBuV/m for low-VHF, 36 dBuV/m for high-VHF, and 41+(20*log(f/615)) dBuV/m for UHF (where f is the center frequency of the channel). In my Longley-Rice maps, *I use 41 dBuV/m as the cut-off level for all three bands, which effectively provides a 5 dB correction for high-VHF and a 13 dB correction for low-VHF.* I've done the same thing with the Strength column here. Then the Margin column is largely a placeholder while I try to figure out if I can get the path information out of TVStudy (LOS, 1Edge, etc.) but is designed to be akin to Noise Margin on TVFool; it subtracts the minimum field strength values from the aforementioned (uncorrected) minimum values, which is why the order of the margin column doesn't always line up with the strength column.


 08-16-2018, 02:26 PM


Trip in VA said:


> The FCC proposed raising VHF power levels across the board, and there was so much push-back from broadcasters that they let it die. The broadcasters wanted it handled case-by-case and not with a broad brush, for whatever reason. Of course, stations are complaining about it now, but in 2010, it was exactly what they wanted. But the planning factors do not account for VHF noise or for the fact that most antennas sold today are not capable of receiving VHF (especially low-VHF) well. That's why my maps have those correction factors, and I would argue they're not enough.


 END OF EXTRACTS FROM PMs


> The ambient noise you measured looks to be 33 dB higher than was planned for so jmcurrytech's 14.9 signal margin becomes about a minus 18 signal margin. He needs to hope this predicted value is wrong.
> John


I'm living in a retirement home (now on lockdown). My CH 3 antenna was indoors and there is a lot of equipment making a lot of RF noise. The noise level varies from day to day according to what equipment is in use. 










I took a look at what I think is jmccurrytech's location and think his noise level will be lower. If it isn't, and he has a problem with reception on VHF-Low, he will need to do some detective work which might involve a spectrum analyzer scan of VHF-Low. 

It doesn't need to be expensive. If he is good with software, he can use an RTL-SDR.com V3 dongle ($22) and free open-source software as shown in the above CH 3 scan. If he doesn't want to assemble software from github in a folder, he can use the dongle with SDR# (SDR sharp) software to see part of the channel and the noise floor to estimate the SNR.










For a little more ($100+), he can see the whole channel with an SDRplay RSP1A SDR and SDRuno software:










OK?


----------



## jmccurrytech

I'm not sure how accurate the report is for my location, as some channels listed as poor (WHNS and WUNF) come in at 33-35dB on my signal meter (samsung tv). I have a GE 29884 outside, around 20 feet above ground level right now. I do plan on having a professional installing the antenna, it'll be the eave mount and be guyed.


----------



## ctdish

Rabbit,
I think we mostly agree. In looking at Tripp's charts keeping in mind with what he sent to you as an explanation, I think the accounting for low channel noise is only used to determine when the signal strength is declared "bad". The calculate received signal strengths and signal margin only assume thermal noise is present. This would provide a pretty grim chance of reception with your measured noise levels. I guess mounting the antenna outside of the house might yield as lower noise level.
John


----------



## rabbit73

jmccurrytech said:


> I'm not sure how accurate the report is for my location, as some channels listed as poor (WHNS and WUNF) come in at 33-35dB on my signal meter (samsung tv). I have a GE 29884 outside, around 20 feet above ground level right now. I do plan on having a professional installing the antenna, it'll be the eave mount and be guyed.


Thank you for the additional information by PM. I redid your report; it's a perfect match to the one you did.
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=110563

WGGS is a weak 2Edge signal. 2Edge signal reports are known to me much less accurate than LOS, and your location is directly behind a hill:










and you are in a dead zone (no color) on the Longley-Rice coverage map:










You will just have to make some tests. VHF signals can make it over terrain obstructions better than UHF signals. I rate it as difficult but not impossible.


----------



## jmccurrytech

ctdish said:


> Rabbit,
> I think we mostly agree. In looking at Tripp's charts keeping in mind with what he sent to you as an explanation, I think the accounting for low channel noise is only used to determine when the signal strength is declared "bad". The calculate received signal strengths and signal margin only assume thermal noise is present. This would provide a pretty grim chance of reception with your measured noise levels. I guess mounting the antenna outside of the house might yield as lower noise level.
> John



Looks like a 25 foot mast might be in order. I figured it would be a shot in the dark either way.


----------



## jmccurrytech

I think I have everything I need, here's a list of the items I have ordered. If you guys can think of anything else, please let me know.



Winegard HD8200U Platinum VHF/UHF HDTV Antenna
RCA VH226F Outdoor Antenna Rotator with Remote 
Solid Signal 100ft Universal Antenna Rotor Wire
Channel Master 25’ Telescoping Mast CM-1830
Winegard SW-0012 Gable End Antenna Mount
100 ft quad shield RG6
CM-7777HD preamp
Radio Shack FM Trap


I already have guy wire and grounding wire, plus a clamp for the mast to ground it.


----------



## Falcon_77

This is going to be extremely tough if your ambient Lo-V noise is anything like mine. KVCR 5 from my house took a very large log periodic to pull in reliably. 5 performed much worse than I expected and even vs. Trip's RE projection. My signal projection from KVCR 5 is 

2 is likely to be tougher, but you won't know until you try, of course. I live in suburbia where LD Lo-V's are lucky to even show the pilot!

Here's my prediction for RF 5.

24‑1 (5)	KVCR-DT	PBS	SAN BERNARDINO	CA 33.1	40.8°	29.2° *51.06* Poor 23.06	L


----------



## 111jag

mikecoscia said:


> Yah I have a the sharp 37D7U the new ones that just came out, it has the tuner built in.


I recently inherited a Sharp AQUOS LC-37D7U that is in great condition. So I hooked it up outside to my digital air antenna and I can't get any digital channels. All it says is Analog. Even swapped it out with an antenna that I know works and it didn't work. Any suggestions? I am sure this older TV does have a digital tuner built in. Heard something about firmware. Is there a new edition and can I download and install it?
Thanks in advance


----------



## Calaveras

111jag said:


> I recently inherited a Sharp AQUOS LC-37D7U that is in great condition. So I hooked it up outside to my digital air antenna and I can't get any digital channels. All it says is Analog.



Are you sure it's set to "Antenna" and not to "Cable?" This is the first thing to check when a channel scan shows nothing.


----------



## Primestar31

111jag said:


> I recently inherited a Sharp AQUOS LC-37D7U that is in great condition. So I hooked it up outside to my digital air antenna and I can't get any digital channels. All it says is Analog. Even swapped it out with an antenna that I know works and it didn't work. Any suggestions? I am sure this older TV does have a digital tuner built in. Heard something about firmware. Is there a new edition and can I download and install it?
> Thanks in advance


Read this manual page, you need to scan using the *antenna setup - digital - air* screen. p.s. There's NO such thing as a "digital antenna", so any tv antenna will work, even an ancient one IF it's for the correct band of stations in your area:

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/151577/Sharp-Aquos-Lc-26d5u.html?page=43#manual


----------



## rabbit73

*Measuring TV Signal Strength with an SDR*

Sometimes it is necessary to measure the strength of TV signals, and you want more than a number from a percent scale. Signal level meters are expensive, but you can use an SDR to view the signal and obtain a signal strength measurement if you have calibrated the SDR. The measurement will actually be signal power because the units are in dB.

Most SDRs have a relative signal strength scale in dB or dBm instead of an absolute value scale.

The SDRplay RSP2 SDR has, it is claimed, a calibrated signal measurement system. They have a video which shows that measurements with an SDR of signals from a signal generator are quite accurate. 














I tried a few measurements with my SDRplay RSP1A SDR as a test and found that it works with an NTSC video signal from a frequency agile modulator:










I then wondered if it could be used to measure a digital TV signal. Some signals don't have a flat top, like CH13 in my avatar to the left. My Sadelco DisplayMax 800 signal level meter makes 43 measurements across a channel, takes an average, and adds a correction factor of +6.8 dB to match a noise source derived from NIST. If any one of the 43 measurements is below -20 dBmV, the meter reads Ur.










CH16 TEST
Settings:

8 MHz span
FM WFM 192K

DisplayMax 800: -13.0 dBmV = -61.8 dBm
SDR: -76.2 dBm calibrated 
76.2 - 61.8 = 14.4
-76.2 dBm + 14.4 correction factor = -61.8 dBm

If the top of the signal isn't flat, it's up to you to place the measurement window at an average level point in the scan, which is at least as good as a meter that does a 280 kHz wide measurement at the center of the channel.



















CH16 at Dropout:
Added sufficient attenuation to bring tuner SNR down to 15 dB
(Added preamp only before meter to keep reading above -20 dBmV and subtracted its gain)
DisplayMax 800: -37.2 dBmV = -86.0 dBm
SDR: -100.5 dBm calibrated
100.5 - 86.0 = 14.5
-100.5 dBm + 14.5 correction factor = -86.0 dBm at Dropout










Most tuners dropout around -85 dBm; close enough. 

If you are using a preamp, dropout might be at a lower dBm value (more likely on UHF than on VHF) if the Noise Figure of the preamp is less than the Noise Figure of the tuner.

Good reference by Calaveras:
Signal Strength, Signal-to-Noise Ratio and Other Related Issues in DTV
http://www.aa6g.org/DTV/Noise/noise.html

Now that I know the correction factor, I don't need my signal level meter. If I have any doubts about the correction factor, I only need a variable attenuator for a double check.

Even if you don't have a signal level meter, you can calculate the correction factor with an attenuator and dropout at about -100 dBm (uncorrected) on the SDR. It's the difference between the SDR reading and -85 dBm.

*The dropout test should be done with a UHF channel.* The ambient noise level on VHF is higher than the Thermal Noise Floor of -106 dBm for a 6 MHz channel. This means that dropout will be at a level higher than -85 dBm because the VHF signal needs to be stronger to have sufficient SNR above the higher VHF noise level. Simplified calculation of minimum required signal:
-106 dBm Thermal Noise + 6 dB tuner NF + 15 dB SNR = -85 dBm










Here is a test on CH11:
800: -5.3 dBmV - 17 preamp just for meter = -22.3 dBmV = -71.1 dBm
SDR -85.4 dBm calibrated
85.4 - 71.1 = 14.3
-85.4 dBm +14.3 correction factor = -71.1 dBm

The correction factor for CH 11 is similar to the factor for CH 16 when I measure the strength of CH 11, but when I do the dropout test for CH 11 the correction factor is larger because of the higher noise level on VHF:
800: -16.6 dBmV -17 preamp just for meter = -33.6 dBmV = -82.4 dBm
SDR: -99.3 dBm calibrated
99.3 - 82.4 = 16.9
-99.3 dBm + 16.9 correction factor = -82.4 dBm at dropout










The correction factor error is even worse if you do the dropout test on VHF-Low.

I did *noise level measurements* on some vacant channels. It was necessary to add preamplification to make the Sadelco 800 meter more sensitive:

Antenna > 7777HD 30 dB > Sadelco 800 meter
CH 8: -2.7 dBmV - 30 = -32.7 dBmV = -81.5 dBm 
CH 13: -1.9 dBmV - 30 = -31.9 dBmV = -80.7 dBm 

CH 20: -18.8 dBmV - 30 = -48.8 dBmV = -97.6 dBm

Antenna > 7777HD 30 dB > 7777HD 17 dB > Sadelco 800 meter
CH 27: +0.1 dBmV - 47 = -46.9 dBmV = -95.7 dBm 
CH 41: -5.4 dBmV - 47 = -52.4 dBmV = -101.2 dBm 

To check measurement system:
75 ohm termination resistor > 7777HD 30 dB > 7777HD 17 dB > 800 meter
CH 41 with 75 ohm resistor: -10.5 dBmV - 47 = -57.5 dBmV = -106.3 dBm; OK

If you set the SDR gain too high, it will overload:


----------



## jmccurrytech

Thanks for everyone's help. Got my HD8200U installed today, took 3 people. Still need to tweak the height some, as I lost one channel, but I did get the channel I was trying to get. I'm around 40 feet above ground level. 



https://www.dropbox.com/s/t31cb482e36z340/IMG_0176.JPG?dl=0


Will post pictures, once I get everything tweaked.


----------



## lifespeed

jmccurrytech said:


> Thanks for everyone's help. Got my HD8200U installed today, took 3 people. Still need to tweak the height some, as I lost one channel, but I did get the channel I was trying to get. I'm around 40 feet above ground level.



Congratulations, it looks like the big antenna at 40' was worth it, guy wires and all! I'm looking forward to putting up my large VHF as well.


----------



## rabbit73

jmccurrytech said:


> Got my HD8200U installed today, took 3 people. I lost one channel, but I did get the channel I was trying to get.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/t31cb482e36z340/IMG_0176.JPG?dl=0












Thanks for the report and the screenshot from your Samsung showing 3 bars out of 10 and a good SNR. Glad you got WGGS that you wanted.

Well done!


----------



## Calaveras

jmccurrytech said:


> Thanks for everyone's help. Got my HD8200U installed today, took 3 people. Still need to tweak the height some, as I lost one channel, but I did get the channel I was trying to get. I'm around 40 feet above ground level.



I hope it holds in for you. A signal strength of 3/10 and an SNR of 20 dB is pretty iffy for RF 2. That implies the Noise Margin may only be 5 dB which would be very low. It'll probably be unwatchable whenever thunderstorms are in the area. I can't even watch RF 9 with a NM of 15-20 dB when there are thunderstorms within 100 miles.


----------



## jmccurrytech

rabbit73 said:


> Thanks for the report and the screenshot from your Samsung showing 3 bars out of 10 and a good SNR. Glad you got WGGS that you wanted.
> 
> Well done!



I'm now receiving an ABC from 3 different markets, WXLV (93 miles), WLOS (82 miles), and WSOC (33 miles)


----------



## tylerSC

jmccurrytech said:


> Thanks for everyone's help. Got my HD8200U installed today, took 3 people. Still need to tweak the height some, as I lost one channel, but I did get the channel I was trying to get. I'm around 40 feet above ground level.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/t31cb482e36z340/IMG_0176.JPG?dl=0
> 
> 
> Will post pictures, once I get everything tweaked.


Glad you got WGGS and hope it holds. It can be problematic even locally here in Spartanburg County. It was much easier to receive before the repack when it was on RF16. And they carry primarily religious programming and some home shopping channels. But since I get Jimmy Swaggart from WJZY, I haven't worried much about WGGS. But now you can at least see what Jim Bakker is up to these days, since none of the Charlotte stations seem to carry his current program.

But will be interesting to see your pics and signal reports once you get it all said and done.


----------



## Falcon_77

I was up in WA again this past weekend for the 4th and did all kinds of things to improve Hi-V reception. After many different tweaks, I've pretty much concluded that pre-amps on Hi-V are of little to no benefit, at least for the short 6' cable runs I have to my tuners. It definitely helps UHF quite a bit, however. I tried 3 different pre-amps and various sets of attenuators.

What I found most interesting is that the classic CM 7777 pre-amp was passing FM radio on the UHF side even with the VHF side trapped. That was a bit of a shock and my FM trap wasn't in. It is now, but it does little for the 3rd strongest station there (88.1). So, I will filter VHF on the UHF input next time. It definitely isolates Hi-V but not FM radio. I have 3 LOS FM stations from Capitol Peak, at about 18 miles, one of which is a whopping 70kW.

I've mostly been able to get KCTS now from Seattle, but I put up the big Stellar 30-2476 in the attic to make it (mostly) reliable.

Here's the latest results.

https://m.rabbitears.info/index.php?request=tvdx_grid&tid=1047C0BC&tno=1&sort=all&hours=168&tzone=PT&unit=&auto=Y

I have the Hi-V into the pre-amp still, but it's for convenience and not necessity.

I recall rabbit had some explanation on why pre-amps don't help on VHF, so I will look for it. Any additional comments re are welcome, of course.

Edit: Added a pic of the current attic setup (DB4e and 30-2476) and more FM radio info.


----------



## rabbit73

Falcon_77 said:


> I was up in WA again this past weekend for the 4th and did all kinds of things to improve Hi-V reception. After many different tweaks, I've pretty much concluded that pre-amps on Hi-V are of little to no benefit, at least for the short 6' cable runs I have to my tuners. It definitely helps UHF quite a bit, however. I tried 3 different pre-amps and various sets of attenuators.












Thank you for the interesting report from WA. It looks pretty crowded in that attic; must have taken a while to do the setup.

On UHF, a preamp will amplify a signal, amplify the noise, and add its own noise. Since the NF of a good preamp is less than the NF of a tuner, the system noise figure is improved according to the Friis formula because the preamp is at the headend of the system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friis_formulas_for_noise

On VHF, where the ambient noise level is higher than -106 dBm, the system noise figure calculation and the lower NF of the preamp become irrelevant because they are based on the thermal noise floor of -106 dBm. The NFs of the preamp and the tuner are both buried in the much higher ambient noise. All you are left with is the same SNR that you started with because the preamp amplifies both the signal and the noise the same amount. Your only hope is to reduce the noise, unless you can find a location for the antenna with a better SNR.

You will notice there is no place to enter the elevated noise level in the System Noise Figure Calculator:










I quote Calaveras:
http://www.aa6g.org/DTV/Noise/noise.html


> Figure 5 adds 10 dB of noise to the received signal. This requires 10 dB more SS to get the same SNR and NM. External noise added to the system acts like a high noise figure amplifier with unity gain. The effective noise figure is just like calculating System Noise Figure. It doesn't take much external noise to ruin the benefits of the preamp when the added noise is much higher than the preamp noise figure. Even external noise that's only equal to the preamp noise figure significantly degrades the System Noise Figure.


Your WA scan:










Unfortunately, the same thing can happen when you increase the antenna gain. When I switched from an indoor folded dipole for VHF-High to a 30-2475 Yagi, the signals were much stronger, but so was the noise, resulting in no improvement in SNR.












> I have 3 LOS FM stations from Capitol Peak, at about 18 miles, one of which is a whopping 70kW.


Is this FM report correct? I don't know of any other place to get an FM report other than TVFool.
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/b4b45ee87e/Radar-FM.png


> I've mostly been able to get KCTS now from Seattle, but I put up the big Stellar 30-2476 in the attic to make it (mostly) reliable.


 Sounds like an improvement to me.

My noise on VHF-High is much worse than on UHF










See also this post about my channel 9. I compared an indoor antenna with an outdoor antenna. The outdoor antenna had a better SNR; less noise:
*Building Attenuation Test, Method 3
*https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-h...munications-preamp-owners-3.html#post56595346


----------



## Falcon_77

rabbit73 said:


> Thank you for the interesting report from WA. It looks pretty crowded in that attic; must have taken a while to do the setup.


Thanks, rabbit. Yes, quite. We bought the house over a year ago and I've been trying to get up every month (I missed 2 months due to C19) and I have worked on it on every trip up there. It's been quite a process as the attic has blown in insulation and just enough floor boards to service the furnace unit. On the trip prior to this one, I installed enough floor boards to access the area the Hi-V is in now. It's still very cramped as most modern homes in earthquake-prone areas are.



> Is this FM report correct? I don't know of any other place to get an FM report other than TVFool [FMFool].
> http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/b4b45ee87e/Radar-FM.png


Yes, that FM report is pretty accurate, but the signals are stronger from Capitol Peak than Tacoma.

I also found out that the Ethernet noise wasn't a factor. I removed the Ethernet over AC and swapped in a WiFi bridge.

I DID find out that the Air TV [it's the original - there's a 2 now it seems] box puts out quite a bit of noise around RF 9 and 10. I will move that box away from everything when I can find a cabler who actually wants to work. It will be far too complicated for me to run coax to even a few rooms.

The blown-in insulation is about 20" deep and is essentially "lava" to anything I have dropped into it (more things than I care to admit). I don't wear my wedding ring into the attic for this reason.


----------



## onslowtn

The Stellar Labs 30-2476 VHF antenna features the ability angle it up towards the atmosphere. In what circumstances would this improve reception? 
If I am targeting a marginal station 70 miles away over hilly terrain, would angling it up one notch improve performance?


----------



## rabbit73

onslowtn said:


> The Stellar Labs 30-2476 VHF antenna features the ability angle it up towards the atmosphere. In what circumstances would this improve reception?
> If I am targeting a marginal station 70 miles away over hilly terrain, would angling it up one notch improve performance?


Hello, onslowtn

You have asked a general question without giving any details like a signal report or what station you are trying to receive.

WSPA?

All we can give is a general answer that it might help in rare cases; you must try it to find out.

Keep in mind during your test that OTA signals are constantly changing in strength. Do you have a way to measure signal strength and/or SNR?


----------



## onslowtn

I cannot get the SNR until I get a signal lock.


----------



## onslowtn

I actually have not yet purchased the antenna.


----------



## rabbit73

Can you give us a signal report for your location?


----------



## Calaveras

onslowtn said:


> The Stellar Labs 30-2476 VHF antenna features the ability angle it up towards the atmosphere. In what circumstances would this improve reception?
> If I am targeting a marginal station 70 miles away over hilly terrain, would angling it up one notch improve performance?


Because of interaction with the ground, the peak in the vertical radiation pattern is slightly ABOVE the horizontal plane so effectively the antenna is already pointed up. If anything the pattern needs to come down but tilting the antenna down won't accomplish this because of the way the interaction with the ground works. Raising the antenna is the only way to get the pattern to come down and it needs to be raised a lot, not just a few feet.

In cases where people report improvement when tilting their antenna up, it's most likely a reduction in multipath that was the problem to begin with. At 70 miles over hilly terrain your problem just sounds like a weak signal. What does your Rabbitears report show for a Noise Margin on this station?


----------



## Pnslowtn

Calaveras said:


> Because of interaction with the ground, the peak in the vertical radiation pattern is slightly ABOVE the horizontal plane so effectively the antenna is already pointed up. If anything the pattern needs to come down but tilting the antenna down won't accomplish this because of the way the interaction with the ground works. Raising the antenna is the only way to get the pattern to come down and it needs to be raised a lot, not just a few feet.
> 
> In cases where people report improvement when tilting their antenna up, it's most likely a reduction in multipath that was the problem to begin with. At 70 miles over hilly terrain your problem just sounds like a weak signal. What does your Rabbitears report show for a Noise Margin on this station?


I appreciate the explanation. Clearly, angling the antenna will not help. I have received the antenna and it is a bit overrated. I modified a single channel hi vhf antenna by adding a screen on the back and the 2476 has the EXACT same signal level on 5 different channels. I will have to try a preamp later on. Thanks.


----------



## Steve347

*Effect Of Boom & Mast On Unscreened Bowties?*

I recently re-did my antenna setup as shown in the photo. I removed the reflector screen from the bowtie to allow reception from both sides of the antenna. PBS is NW everything else is SE for our local Raleigh market.

When initially installed the bowtie was "pointing" SW. In this position there were considerable dropouts in PBS. I then rotated the bowtie 180 degrees. Signal dropouts decreased significantly but are still present.

So I am wondering if I should replace the bowtie boom with something non-conductive and raise the antenna above the mast to eliminate reflections off of it. Any thoughts?


----------



## lifespeed

Steve347 said:


> So I am wondering if I should replace the bowtie boom with something non-conductive and raise the antenna above the mast to eliminate reflections off of it. Any thoughts?


I think if you get a second antenna so each can point in the correct direction (or a rotor) you'll accomplish reliable reception. Otherwise you're just asking the same question that has been asked/tried thousands of times, which essentially comes down to wishing for an easy shortcut that flies in the face of the way RF works. Dork around with it all you want, there is a small chance you may get it to work, but I wouldn't bet on it. Also, you realize you messed with the antenna design and reduced the gain by removing the reflector, right?


----------



## tylerSC

Steve347 said:


> *Effect Of Boom & Mast On Unscreened Bowties?*
> 
> I recently re-did my antenna setup as shown in the photo. I removed the reflector screen from the bowtie to allow reception from both sides of the antenna. PBS is NW everything else is SE for our local Raleigh market.
> 
> When initially installed the bowtie was "pointing" SW. In this position there were considerable dropouts in PBS. I then rotated the bowtie 180 degrees. Signal dropouts decreased significantly but are still present.
> 
> So I am wondering if I should replace the bowtie boom with something non-conductive and raise the antenna above the mast to eliminate reflections off of it. Any thoughts?
> 
> View attachment 3035884


Lifespeed may indeed have the best solution. Order a 2nd DB4e and join with equal length coax cable using a reverse splitter, with both DB4 antennas pointed the appropriate direction. Hopefully this will eliminate dropouts. Then connect with your VHF antennas with a UVSJ combiner, and then connect all to a preamp, but only if needed. A distro amp further down the line may work better, but you will have to make that decision based upon your local signal strength. And you will indeed likely get stronger results if you replace the reflector screens on the antenna. Looks like overall you have a good set up but you will need to correct the PBS issue.


----------



## lifespeed

tylerSC said:


> Lifespeed may indeed have the best solution. Order a 2nd DB4e and join with equal length coax cable using a reverse splitter, with both DB4 antennas pointed the appropriate direction. Hopefully this will eliminate dropouts. Then connect with your VHF antennas with a UVSJ combiner, and then connect all to a preamp, but only if needed. A distro amp further down the line may work better, but you will have to make that decision based upon your local signal strength. And you will indeed likely get stronger results if you replace the reflector screens on the antenna. Looks like overall you have a good set up but you will need to correct the PBS issue.


This is a shortcut as well, although one with perhaps slightly better chance of working. I guess I did not bother to spell out the details as my experience on this forum has been few are willing to do things right, so why waste the time typing? The danger is multipath from the two antennae receiving the same signals, then combining out-of-phase in the splitter. The strictly-correct approach is an RF switch, or even better, a networked tuner for each UHF antenna (VHF can be UVSJ'd with a UHF feed) from SiliconDust "combined" at the Ethernet switch. No rotor, no multipath, no dropout and DVR-friendly.


----------



## Neil L

One purpose of the screen is to prevent unwanted signals from arriving from the rear. The F/R ratio is the spec you often see. Since you want to receive those signals, it may be that removing the screen was the right thing to do. Usually, metallic vertical members have a negligible affect on the signal, so the mast and vertical "boom" is probably not the cause of reception issues.


----------



## lifespeed

Neil L said:


> One purpose of the screen is to prevent unwanted signals from arriving from the rear.


Which is multipath, and can cause signal quality problems. Something the OP's tuner may advise him of.


----------



## Neil L

Ah yes... multipath. That doesn't seem to be much of an issue where I live (a rural area with few obstructions), but could very well be a major issue in many areas. However, if that is the issue, pointing two antenna in opposite directions with not eliminate the multipath problem.


----------



## Calaveras

Pnslowtn said:


> I appreciate the explanation. Clearly, angling the antenna will not help. I have received the antenna and it is a bit overrated. I modified a single channel hi vhf antenna by adding a screen on the back and the 2476 has the EXACT same signal level on 5 different channels. I will have to try a preamp later on. Thanks.


It's going to be a weak signal at 70 miles over hilly terrain. One thing that is overlooked in high VHF dropouts is lightning. Having now been in my current location for over a year I've found that lightning up to 100 miles away destroys my one high VHF station which is not particularly strong.

I don't know what you mean when you say "dropouts." Brief intermittent loss of signal? Extended periods of no signal? Something else? Knowing the exact nature of the dropouts might help diagnose the cause.


----------



## lifespeed

Neil L said:


> Ah yes... multipath. That doesn't seem to be much of an issue where I live (a rural area with few obstructions), but could very well be a major issue in many areas. However, if that is the issue, pointing two antenna in opposite directions with not eliminate the multipath problem.


It will reduce multipath relative to the reflectorless approach so long as you don't combine them in the coax cable.


----------



## Steve347

lifespeed said:


> I think if you get a second antenna so each can point in the correct direction (or a rotor) you'll accomplish reliable reception.


I don't think that this is a foregone conclusion. What you'll have is 3dB more signal which shouldn't be needed in an urban setting.



lifespeed said:


> Also, you realize you messed with the antenna design and reduced the gain by removing the reflector, right?


Yes, it dropped the signal by 3 dB off of what was the front side of the antenna and opened up the back side to reception of the stations in the other direction.


----------



## Steve347

Neil L said:


> Ah yes... multipath. That doesn't seem to be much of an issue where I live (a rural area with few obstructions), but could very well be a major issue in many areas. However, if that is the issue, pointing two antenna in opposite directions with not eliminate the multipath problem.


Any good methods to check for multipath problems on an existing antenna setup?


----------



## lifespeed

Steve347 said:


> I don't think that this is a foregone conclusion. What you'll have is 3dB more signal which shouldn't be needed in an urban setting.
> 
> 
> Yes, it dropped the signal by 3 dB off of what was the front side of the antenna and opened up the back side to reception of the stations in the other direction.


If it wasn't needed, why did you post you're not receiving reliable reception, and ask how to make it work? Also, multipath is worsened. Like I said, you're not the first person to come up with this brilliant idea. Funny the antenna mfg's don't sell antennae as you've configured.

Go ahead, make it work and post the results.


----------



## lifespeed

Steve347 said:


> Any good methods to check for multipath problems on an existing antenna setup?





lifespeed said:


> Which is multipath, and can cause signal quality problems. Something the OP's tuner may advise him of.


The tuner may indicate good signal strength, but poor signal quality. Often an indication of multipath. Your local terrain, if not flat without obstructions, may give a visual indication of the possibility. Hills, buildings, trees, etc. They don't have to be between your antenna and the transmitter, either.


----------



## Steve347

lifespeed said:


> The tuner may indicate good signal strength, but poor signal quality. Often an indication of multipath. Your local terrain, if not flat without obstructions, may give a visual indication of the possibility. Hills, buildings, trees, etc. They don't have to be between your antenna and the transmitter, either.


Well, unfortunately, my tuner only shows signal strength and not quality. When the issue shows up it is usually accompanied by large wild swings of the signal strength meter. I don't know if this is indicative of multi-path or fading (dropouts) due to trees, etc. It is also interesting that I am not seeing issues with stations from the Garner antenna farm (opposite direction from PBS) same antenna.


----------



## lifespeed

Steve347 said:


> Well, unfortunately, my tuner only shows signal strength and not quality. When the issue shows up it is usually accompanied by large wild swings of the signal strength meter. I don't know if this is indicative of multi-path or fading (dropouts) due to trees, etc. It is also interesting that I am not seeing issues with stations from the Garner antenna farm (opposite direction from PBS) same antenna.


Are your transmitters in opposite directions on the same channel? That wouldn't help. I'm not sure you ever described your environment, like the antenna looking through tall trees, 1-edge or 2-edge over hills or mountains for your distant station, etc. Post a link to your RabbitEars report. Every reception location is unique, you haven't really provided much detail.

I will also mention that sometimes the most direct path to success is to do things correctly from the start, ie high-gain directional (Yagi, typically) antennae pointed at each of your desired transmitters. This equipment isn't really all that expensive compared to a few months of pay TV bills. If you don't care enough to do it right, fine, we all make our own cost/benefit decisions. But I think you're just wasting effort with your reflector-less antenna mod. If you can't be bothered to do it right put the reflector back on, aim for your main transmitter farm and accept you won't receive PBS.


----------



## Calaveras

Steve347 said:


> Well, unfortunately, my tuner only shows signal strength and not quality. When the issue shows up it is usually accompanied by large wild swings of the signal strength meter. I don't know if this is indicative of multi-path or fading (dropouts) due to trees, etc. It is also interesting that I am not seeing issues with stations from the Garner antenna farm (opposite direction from PBS) same antenna.


In over ten years I have not encountered a TV that showed real Signal Strength and not Signal Quality. In 100% of the cases I've seen if there is only one meter, it is Signal Quality even if it's labeled Signal Strength. In fact, this is very common.

Large swings in signal strength or quality over the short term (seconds) are most often caused by moving vegetation. Since that problem doesn't occur in the opposite direction, that eliminates some other possibilities.


----------



## rabbit73

Steve347 said:


> Well, unfortunately, my tuner only shows signal strength and not quality. When the issue shows up it is usually accompanied by large wild swings of the signal strength meter. I don't know if this is indicative of multi-path or fading (dropouts) due to trees, etc. It is also interesting that I am not seeing issues with stations from the Garner antenna farm (opposite direction from PBS) same antenna.


I agree with Calaveras; it's probably signal quality if it only shows one thing. TVs that show signal strength and signal quality are not common; my Sony shows both:



















Can you tell us what make and model your TV is and show us a screen shot?

I think it's your trees as shown in the attachment.

I also have trees. This is what the signal looks like on a spectrum analyzer when the wind blows:

Video
plays as it downloads
CH16TreeInPath4.mp4

download and play; I use VLC Media Player
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ig3va499k237ayu/CH16TreeInPath4.mp4?dl=1


----------



## Steve347

Calaveras said:


> Since that problem doesn't occur in the opposite direction, that eliminates some other possibilities.


Well, There are pretty much trees in ALL transmitter directions. In another two months all of the leaves will be gone so that will be one test. The other difference is that I believe that the PBS transmitter is considerably lower power than the other major networks.

A while ago I did a quantitative signal level test with an ancient Heathkit inline attenuator. The major Garner stations had about 33dB of margin before falling off the digital cliff whereas PBS only had about 13db. The attenuator was originally made for 45 MHz TV IF strips so I am not sure of its frequency dependent characteristics. However it is made with true non-inductive carbon comp resistors.


----------



## Steve347

rabbit73 said:


> Can you tell us what make and model your TV is and show us a screen shot?


Actually, the "TV" is a Zenith DTT901 converter box feeding a Samsung DLP rear projector. Yes, I know that I outta upgrade but the performance keeps increasing and the prices dropping! Makes it hard to pull the trigger.



rabbit73 said:


> I think it's your trees as shown in the attachment.


Probably trees and a lower signal level.



rabbit73 said:


> This is what the signal looks like on a spectrum analyzer when the wind blows:


Thanks for the reference. I actually have one of those RTL-SDR dongles but I need to get an SMA adapter cable for it and get software on the laptop. Any recommendations on where to get quality SMA cables? it appears that there is a lot of junk out there.


----------



## rabbit73

Steve347 said:


> I recently re-did my antenna setup as shown in the photo. I removed the reflector screen from the bowtie to allow reception from both sides of the antenna. PBS is NW everything else is SE for our local Raleigh market.
> 
> When initially installed the bowtie was "pointing" SW. In this position there were considerable dropouts in PBS. I then rotated the bowtie 180 degrees. Signal dropouts decreased significantly but are still present.


I'm a little confused. If PBS is NW and everything else is SE, why did you aim your antenna SW? And if you rotated your antenna 180 degrees from SW, then it would be aiimed NE; that doesn't seem to be correct either.


----------



## rabbit73

Steve347 said:


> Actually, the "TV" is a Zenith DTT901 converter box feeding a Samsung DLP rear projector. Yes, I know that I outta upgrade but the performance keeps increasing and the prices dropping! Makes it hard to pull the trigger.


The Zenith 900 and 901 were some of the best converter boxes. With most of the boxes that showed one signal value, it was signal quality. There were a few boxes, like the Apex DT502, that had dual signal bars that showed signal quality and signal strength.










I made some comparisons between the Zenith and the Apex that seemed to indicate the Zenith combined signal strength and signal quality in one value with its signal bar.










The current tuners aren't too good. The CM7004 has a good tuner and HDMI output, but it's discontinued. The Mediasonic HW-150 is pretty good for a cheap tuner. I used it to make a margin to dropout test with an attenuator:












> Thanks for the reference. I actually have one of those RTL-SDR dongles but I need to get an SMA adapter cable for it and get software on the laptop. Any recommendations on where to get quality SMA cables? it appears that there is a lot of junk out there.












When I bought the dongle, I also bought a set of adapter cables to get F, UHF, and BNC. The set cost as much as the dongle, so when I wanted some more SMA to F adapter cables, I looked at Amazon and eBay. I wasn't impressed with the choices on Amazon, so I picked a source on eBay that had a good rating and specialized in that type of thing, cablesonline.net.
SMA Male to F Bulkhead Female 50-Ohm RG316 Coax Low Loss RF Cable | eBay

I ordered two 1ft length; they seem to be good quality.

The first software I used for the RTL-SDR.COM V3 dongle was the SDR# (SDRsharp). It doesn't show a whole channel, because the dongle is limited to about 2 MHz width. It will show part of the channel to show the noise floor, the pilot, and enough of the channel to estimate the SNR, IF you correctly adjust the gain setting.










I next tried the free open-source RTLSDR scanner software from GitHub to show more than one channel. I had to assemble the DIY software in a folder, which was difficult for me.










To show a whole channel, I bought an SDRplay RSP1A SDR. That's what I used to show the affect on the signal of the wind on the trees.


----------



## rabbit73

Steve347 said:


> Well, There are pretty much trees in ALL transmitter directions. In another two months all of the leaves will be gone so that will be one test. The other difference is that I believe that the PBS transmitter is considerably lower power than the other major networks.
> 
> A while ago I did a quantitative signal level test with an ancient Heathkit inline attenuator. The major Garner stations had about 33dB of margin before falling off the digital cliff whereas PBS only had about 13db. The attenuator was originally made for 45 MHz TV IF strips so I am not sure of its frequency dependent characteristics. However it is made with true non-inductive carbon comp resistors.


RabbitEars.Info
WUNC-TV PBS on real channel 20 is running 1000 kW ERP, but the translators on 19 and 23 are low power.
RabbitEars.Info


----------



## tustinfarm

Helping a friend in another state (near Grand Rapids, MI) troubleshoot an antenna problem. Has an antenna tower (30 feet high I'd guess) and antennas that are probably at least 30 years old. He is not technically inclined at all, so he turned to a TV signal "nut" like me for advice. He says (virtual) channels 3 & 8 (both hi-VHF) have been spotty recently. Goal is to receive the main TV networks reliably, not every last channel that can be squeezed out. I asked him to send me a picture of what he has (snapshots attached). I believe the multi-band antenna in the middle of the stack is pointed toward the SE. Here is the link to the rabbitears report:






RabbitEars.Info


RabbitEars, where you can learn all about local, over-the-air TV channels.




rabbitears.info





These are my conclusions so far, but I am highly interested in what the experts here have to say...and I'm also curious if the specific models of the antennas might be identified. I have no idea how they are being combined (yikes!)...

1) _Multiple_ antenna systems are fraught with problems, depending on how they are combined/filtered etc. Should be fine with single antenna, with the stronger signals on the backside adequate. I suspect that whoever put them in decades ago was focused on containing the cleanest analog signals, to minimize ghosts and snow in the picture.
2) The odd loop sticking out looks like a driven element that has fallen off or slipped off position - that seems highly likely to be the culprit in reliability problems for the hi-VHF stations.
3) Coax that is _decades _old ought to be replaced.
4) Having a _single _antenna should be adequate for that location, even though some stations will be off totally angle.


----------



## Steve347

rabbit73 said:


> I'm a little confused. If PBS is NW and everything else is SE, why did you aim your antenna SW? And if you rotated your antenna 180 degrees from SW, then it would be aiimed NE; that doesn't seem to be correct either.


Typo, brain fart, whatever... SW should have been SE.


----------



## Steve347

rabbit73 said:


> RabbitEars.Info
> WUNC-TV PBS on real channel 20 is running 1000 kW ERP, but the translators on 19 and 23 are low power.
> RabbitEars.Info


According to the receiver box I am on the real RF ch 20. I am now beginning to wonder if there is terrain between me and the transmitter. There is a bit of a ridge at and west of 15/501 south of Chapel Hill where the transmitter is located. It is one of the larger cycling climbs around.


----------



## Calaveras

tustinfarm said:


> 1) _Multiple_ antenna systems are fraught with problems, depending on how they are combined/filtered etc. Should be fine with single antenna, with the stronger signals on the backside adequate.


Maybe. When you're far off-pointed from a station, multipath becomes a significant issue because any nearby buildings become reflectors and the reflections can be strong compared to the main path signal and prevent reception. It's quite common.


----------



## statmanmi

Hello again tustinfarm!

There's likely merit to pursuing this discussion in the Grand Rapids, MI thread specifically, given some necessities about reception here. Recall this is my home location--I'm about 30 miles east from your friend, per my look at the Rabbitears report provided.

The suggestion I'd make for your friend is either a Clearstream 2V or 2MAX. The 2V would be preferred, since the VHF dipole can be separately zip-tied to the mast at a different angle than the UHF portion...plus the 2V includes the reflector behind the UHF loops.


What makes Grand Rapids a somewhat unusual market is that 4 top networks are on High-VHF, which you and your friend have noticed. (Also odd is that we have 2 separate ABC stations, but your friend likely wants the VHF one--WZZM 13.1 RF13--since their studios are on his side of town. Their news coverage is also more focused in the northern portion of the DMA.)


You asked about the aerial he has. It's an "area special" antenna that were popular before the 2009 digital transition--known as a "Royal 17" or could be a "Royal 17D" (for Digital), or a similar set-up. There's apparently at least one professional installer still doing this style in the area. The last post I can find on AVS explaining the Royal 17 somewhat is this one: Grand Rapids, MI - HDTV .


During the DTV transition years (which was before I caught the OTA bug), the CBS affiliate WWMT 3.1 had their analog broadcast on RF3, and were given RF2 for digital. But they couldn't up their RF2 signal strength too much because of potential interference with the analog 2 station in Detroit. I've read on AVSForum that it was kind of a bear getting CBS in HDTV because of this. On transition day, they activated their ATSC signal on RF8, once the NBC affiliate's analog broadcast vacated it. Yet CBS remains a tough reception for some--they have a construction permit requested with the FCC, but not yet approved. Their goal being to put their antenna on top of the existing tower, versus how they've been using a side mounted one at a lower height since 2009. Plus there's a Milwaukee broadcast signal on RF8 that often makes it across Lake Michigan enough to cause interference, which will be overcome a bit better with the higher height providing better coverage (even with the same transmitter power).

I'm typing quite a history lesson, aren't I? Suffice it to say that your friend's arrangement needed the Low-VHF elements for CBS until the 2009 transition. 

Also, you likely noticed that the full service/full power broadcasts come from 3 different directions around GR--hence the separate booms currently in place. Further, High-VHF signals come from all 3, as observed. But the Antennas Direct single VHF dipole has worked fine for a couple of other friends I've helped--I believe it's actually advantageous because it's not so directional.

And definitely new coax like you've already recommended.

That should get some ideas going for you two, eh? Cheers! ~~ Statmanmi




tustinfarm said:


> Helping a friend in another state (near Grand Rapids, MI) troubleshoot an antenna problem. Has an antenna tower (30 feet high I'd guess) and antennas that are probably at least 30 years old. He is not technically inclined at all, so he turned to a TV signal "nut" like me for advice. He says (virtual) channels 3 & 8 (both hi-VHF) have been spotty recently. Goal is to receive the main TV networks reliably, not every last channel that can be squeezed out. I asked him to send me a picture of what he has (snapshots attached). I believe the multi-band antenna in the middle of the stack is pointed toward the SE. Here is the link to the rabbitears report:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RabbitEars.Info
> 
> 
> RabbitEars, where you can learn all about local, over-the-air TV channels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rabbitears.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are my conclusions so far, but I am highly interested in what the experts here have to say...and I'm also curious if the specific models of the antennas might be identified. I have no idea how they are being combined (yikes!)...
> 
> 1) _Multiple_ antenna systems are fraught with problems, depending on how they are combined/filtered etc. Should be fine with single antenna, with the stronger signals on the backside adequate. I suspect that whoever put them in decades ago was focused on containing the cleanest analog signals, to minimize ghosts and snow in the picture.
> 2) The odd loop sticking out looks like a driven element that has fallen off or slipped off position - that seems highly likely to be the culprit in reliability problems for the hi-VHF stations.
> 3) Coax that is _decades _old ought to be replaced.
> 4) Having a _single _antenna should be adequate for that location, even though some stations will be off totally angle.


----------



## Steve347

rabbit73 said:


> When I bought the dongle, I also bought a set of adapter cables to get F, UHF, and BNC. The set cost as much as the dongle, so when I wanted some more SMA to F adapter cables, I looked at Amazon and eBay. I wasn't impressed with the choices on Amazon, so I picked a source on eBay that had a good rating and specialized in that type of thing, cablesonline.net.
> SMA Male to F Bulkhead Female 50-Ohm RG316 Coax Low Loss RF Cable | eBay
> 
> I ordered two 1ft length; they seem to be good quality.


Adapter cable(s) are on the way.



rabbit73 said:


> The first software I used for the RTL-SDR.COM V3 dongle was the SDR# (SDRsharp). It doesn't show a whole channel, because the dongle is limited to about 2 MHz width. It will show part of the channel to show the noise floor, the pilot, and enough of the channel to estimate the SNR, IF you correctly adjust the gain setting.
> 
> I next tried the free open-source RTLSDR scanner software from GitHub to show more than one channel. I had to assemble the DIY software in a folder, which was difficult for me.


Well, the RTL-SDR.com dongle is all that I currently have available. As far as software it looks like I have the following choices:

1. SDR# now apparently from AirSpy. Which kit should I install? Basic Windows package or the Community package?

2. RTL SDR Scanner.

Any others that I should consider for my RTL-SDR hardware?

It looks like both of these area trade-off. One only shows part of a channel while the other can show multiple channels but I suspect it won't update fast enough to show the effect of trees, wind or multipath.



rabbit73 said:


> To show a whole channel, I bought an SDRplay RSP1A SDR. That's what I used to show the affect on the signal of the wind on the trees.


I may consider this at some point in the future.


----------



## rabbit73

Steve347 said:


> Well, the RTL-SDR.com dongle is all that I currently have available. As far as software it looks like I have the following choices:
> 1. SDR# now apparently from AirSpy. Which kit should I install? Basic Windows package or the Community package?
> 2. RTL SDR Scanner.
> Any others that I should consider for my RTL-SDR hardware?
> 
> It looks like both of these area trade-off. One only shows part of a channel while the other can show multiple channels but I suspect it won't update fast enough to show the effect of trees, wind or multipath.


Those are the two that I favor. There is also Spectrum SA software, but it makes notches in the scan.
The Official AVS Antenna and Related Hardware Topic!

Use the basic windows SDR#, but you have to make a mod for use with the RTLSDR dongle.

SDR# and Airspy Downloads - airspy.com

Quick Start Guide

video
Installing RTL-SDR & SDR Sharp on Win10 Made Easy - TheSmokinApe
6,545 views
May 21, 2020





The RTLSDR Scanner doesn't show anything during the scan; you just see the green progress bar at the lower right.





































Videos
VHF, scan takes about a minute
Green bar doesn't show in video

downloads and then can play
RTLSDR Scanner 2020-09-26 13-32-03.mp4

downloads but you have to open to play
I use VLC player
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kl8hg1sfbiwik6o/RTLSDR Scanner 2020-09-26 13-32-03.mp4?dl=1

UHF

RTLSDR Scanner 2020-09-26 13-51-38.mp4

https://www.dropbox.com/s/702540ax064n68s/RTLSDR Sc1nner 2020-09-26 13-51-38.mp4?dl=1

When using the dongle with SDR#, it is important to adjust the gain to the proper level that gives the highest signal level with the MAX SNR.










Gain panel doesn't show in video, it's on another layer

SDR# v1.0.0.1732 - RTL-SDR (USB) 2020-09-01 14-50-56.mp4

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ge923irqji75p4q/SDR# v1.0.0.1732 - RTL-SDR (USB) 2020-09-01 14-50-56.mp4?dl=1


----------



## tylerSC

Wonder why Voxx has stopped making Terk branded antennas? Their Terk HDTVa/HDTVi were good indoor antennas based upon the UHF Silver Sensor design with rabbit ears added for VHF. Now most Terk antennas are no longer available except for a few used versions on eBay or perhaps Amazon. Some of the Terk models have been rebranded as RCA versions but not the HDTVa/HDTVi which don't seem to be manufactured anymore. Since the repack many stations moved to VHF so you would think there would be a need for the HDTVa with the rabbit ears, and it also has the good UHF element and amplifier. Those flat panel antennas which seem popular may be optimized for UHF but are weak for VHF.


----------



## MBrown2020

Can someone please look at my question about grounding a gable mounted antenna?

Link: Grounding antenna masts and coax cable


----------



## Calaveras

MBrown2020 said:


> Can someone please look at my question about grounding a gable mounted antenna?
> 
> Link: Grounding antenna masts and coax cable


You got an answer from rabbit73 that's probably as good as you're going to get. No one else answered because there's no more to be said.


----------



## MBrown2020

I just installed a gable mount with a 5ft mast. (Similar to pic)










I have 2 antennas (Stellar Labs 30-2475 for VHF-Hi Fox 12 & Stellar Labs 30-2365 for all other UHF stations). I have about 44" between the pitch of the roof and the top end of the mast. I plan on using the Antennas Direct VHF/UHF combiner. 
I plan on mounting the VHF-Hi antenna on top and the UHF antenna below it.
How much space vertically between the 2 antennas should I be (2ft, 3ft, etc..)???

TVfool report: RabbitEars.Info


----------



## Neil L

Here is a good guide on stacking antennas: VHF/UHF Long Yagi Workshop


----------



## MBrown2020

I read the guide, but I think it went right over my head. Where do I find the capture area stats?


----------



## Neil L

Good point there MBrown2020... maybe this online calculator will help: Effective Antenna Aperture Calculator


----------



## Casey Hartman

I ran across Sky Blue Antennas last week while looking at antennas. From what I've read here and on other brand's product descriptions, combo antennas usually have less VHF gain than UFH. The SBE10 has a forward gain of ~12 dB for both bands and is only 43.5" in length. Do these specs seem accurate?


----------



## Neil L

Hi Casey, while I cannot verify or debunk the claims, the gain specs seem rather optimistic to me. You can see much larger separate VHF and UHF designs that have gain similar to that which this rather small antenna claims.


----------



## Casey Hartman

The VHF claim intrigued me, especially with a somewhat compact boom length. I think I need more gain the C5 or more directional to pull in a station I get signal strength but no quality.


----------



## Calaveras

The average gain is claimed to be about 10.5 dBi. Subtract 2.2 dB to convert to dBd - 8.3 dBd. If you assume they're including ground gain then that's good for about 3 dB. Subtract 3 dB and it's down to 5.3 dBd. This is more realistic for what looks like a 6 element LPDA. One of the best high VHF yagis I know of is here:






TV Antennas







www.ham-radio.com





I've built 2 of these 14 element yagis and they perform well.


----------



## Casey Hartman

Calaveras said:


> The average gain is claimed to be about 10.5 dBi. Subtract 2.2 dB to convert to dBd - 8.3 dBd. If you assume they're including ground gain then that's good for about 3 dB. Subtract 3 dB and it's down to 5.3 dBd. This is more realistic for what looks like a 6 element LPDA. One of the best high VHF yagis I know of is here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TV Antennas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ham-radio.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've built 2 of these 14 element yagis and they perform well.
> 
> View attachment 3043431


I have seen the 14-element yagi mentioned several times in AVS forums with positive reviews, but 10 feet is a bit big for my condo.


----------



## hdtvluvr

My daughter lives in an apartment and would like to get TV OTA. She lives on the 3rd floor on the north side of the complex. An outside antenna isn't an option as she doesn't even have a balcony. I think the stations around 300 degrees, although RabbitEars says "Good", are out because I think that would be in a direction that the signals would have to pass through multiple apartments before reaching hers. 

Any idea of indoor antenna suggestions that have a chance of working? Here is the RabbitEars report


----------



## rabbit73

hdtvluvr said:


> My daughter lives in an apartment and would like to get TV OTA. She lives on the 3rd floor on the north side of the complex. An outside antenna isn't an option as she doesn't even have a balcony. I think the stations around 300 degrees, although RabbitEars says "Good", are out because I think that would be in a direction that the signals would have to pass through multiple apartments before reaching hers.
> 
> Any idea of indoor antenna suggestions that have a chance of working? Here is the RabbitEars report


Hello, hdtvluvr; thank you for the signal report.

The signals are very strong outside, so her chances are good depending upon the construction of the building. She will just have to try an antenna to see what will work.

I suggest a GE29884. It's not too expensive, but it needs to be assembled.

It should be able to pick up ABC, PBS, and NBC. CBS will be a problem because it is on VHF-Low channel 5, which requires a larger antenna.

If she gets the first 3 channels OK, we can talk about an antenna for CBS.


----------



## Casey Hartman

I've seen the GE attic mount antenna at one or both of the big box hardware stores, which makes it easy to return if it doesn't work in a particular home. I don't remember if it was the 29884 model though.


----------



## hdtvluvr

Rabbit73
So you think CBS on channel 36 which appears to be a duplicate of CBS on 5 is out of the question? Also Fox on channel 20?

And what do you recommend for a base so it will sit on a table?

Casey Hartman
Do you think you can take it back assembled if it doesn't work?


----------



## Casey Hartman

hdtvluvr said:


> Rabbit73
> So you think CBS on channel 36 which is appears to be a duplicate of CBS on 5 is out of the question? Also Fox on channel 20?
> 
> And what do you recommend for a base so it will sit on a table?
> 
> Casey Hartman
> Do you think you can take it back assembled if it doesn't work?


I would expect the store to require it to be disassembled and put back in the box. 

To pick up CBS 5, an antenna with VHF-low elements is needed which are longer and take up more space.


----------



## hdtvluvr

Well, I looked up the antenna and it is 21" high and 29" deep. I checked with her and she isn't going to have enough room for something that big and have it inside and pointed through the window. There is a possibility to put it in the corner behind a chair except it would then be looking through a wall and not a window. The wall is brick & stucco. Not sure if the stucco is directly applied to the brick or if it has a wire mesh in it.

The 4221 in your post may fit between the blinds and window but it would not be pointed toward 300 degrees. More like 5 or 10 degrees instead of the 300 degree toward the towers.

Any other options?


----------



## Casey Hartman

The antenna may be able to pick up signals coming through the wall. The DC broadcasting towers are north east of my complex and my indoor antenna works best in the entryway closet (north side) instead of the side with windows and sliding glass balcony door. I've seen photos of painter poles being used as a mast, but the bottom wasn't included to see how it was held.

I like how bay antennas are only a few inches deep, 4221 is only 5", so they don't take up as much floor space when used indoors. The 4221HD has higher VHF and UHF gain than the 4Max, which may be needed as some of your stations are 1-Edge.


----------



## johnny antenna

hdtvluvr said:


> Well, I looked up the antenna and it is 21" high and 29" deep. I checked with her and she isn't going to have enough room for something that big and have it inside and pointed through the window. There is a possibility to put it in the corner behind a chair except it would then be looking through a wall and not a window. The wall is brick & stucco. Not sure if the stucco is directly applied to the brick or if it has a wire mesh in it.
> 
> The 4221 in your post may fit between the blinds and window but it would not be pointed toward 300 degrees. More like 5 or 10 degrees instead of the 300 degree toward the towers.
> 
> Any other options?


You can hide a 2-bay antenna behind curtains. I like the Antennas Direct DB2E. I measured mine, it is about 24" wide x 16" tall and 6" deep if you leave off the mounting bracket. I see them on sale for $25-$30. https://www.newegg.com/antennas-direct-db2e/p/N82E16882881017


----------



## rabbit73

hdtvluvr said:


> Rabbit73
> So you think CBS on channel 36 which appears to be a duplicate of CBS on 5 is out of the question? Also Fox on channel 20?
> 
> And what do you recommend for a base so it will sit on a table?


Um, the idea is to pick the best antenna for the desired signals and put it where those signals are strongest, not pick an antenna that will fit where you want to put it.

CBS on channel 36 is much weaker. At this point we have no idea how strong the signals will be inside. Some experimentation will be mandatory to see what will work.

The DB2e and the 4221 are primarily UHF antennas. Your daughter has two VHF-High channels, PBS and NBC.










If you don't like the GE29884, there are other more expensive antennas like the Antennas Direct C2V:
https://www.amazon.com/ClearStream-Indoor-Outdoor-Antenna-Mount/dp/B007RH5GZI

Antennas Direct ClearStream 2 TV Antenna w/Dipole And Mount (C2V-CJM) from Solid Signal


----------



## hdtvluvr

rabbit73 said:


> Um, the idea is to pick the best antenna for the desired signals and put it where those signals are strongest, not pick an antenna that will fit where you want to put it.


😂

Sorry, I was referencing the 4221 due to size. I'll discuss the Antennas Direct C2V with her. Does anyone know how difficult it is to disassemble should she need to box it back up?


----------



## rabbit73

hdtvluvr said:


> 😂
> 
> Sorry, I was referencing the 4221 due to size. I'll discuss the Antennas Direct C2V with her. Does anyone know how difficult it is to disassemble should she need to box it back up?


It's a lot easier than trying to take apart a GE29884. She would just have to undo fasteners.
3 versions
https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss.../ClearStream-2V-wMount-quick-Start-C2V-J3.pdf

https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/Assembly/C2-J30-V_QS_FINAL_20140612.pdf

https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss...arStream-2V-wMount-Quick-Start--C2-V-CJM-.pdf

The CS 2MAX is even easier, but it has less gain with no reflector and signals will be affected more when you walk near it.
ClearStream 2MAX® UHF/VHF Indoor/Outdoor HDTV Antenna with 20" Mast


----------



## hdtvluvr

Thanks for that information.


----------



## Casey Hartman

Regarding the 4221, I mentioned it having VHF gain since CM's site claims it has 3.5db. Clearstream antennas are easy to put back in the box; fold the dipoles and remove the J-pole. Best Buy tends to have AD 2Max and 4Max in stock.


----------



## Calaveras

Casey Hartman said:


> Regarding the 4221, I mentioned it having VHF gain since CM's site claims it has 3.5db.


The 4221 was modeled on the HDTV Primer page for VHF performance.



Comparing some commercially available antennas



Scroll down to the bottom of the page. I wouldn't chose any of those antennas for VHF. Most of them are worse than a dipole which is 2.2 dBi gain. There's another problem that for some reason doesn't show up in the models. Every time I've tried a UHF antenna on high VHF or a high VHF antenna on low VHF, I've found that signals peak roughly +/- 45 degrees from the direction you think they should. If the antennas are pointed at 90 degrees for UHF, on VHF they need to be rotated to 45 degrees or 135 degrees. This combined with mostly negative gain makes them most useless.

Anyone who lucks out and gets a UHF antenna to work on VHF has simply confirmed that any hunk of metal will act as an antenna if the signals are strong enough.

Another problem using an antenna off band is that it doesn't have a normal pattern; i.e. a main lobe with signal rejection in every other direction. Because of this you lose the normal multipath rejection you get from a directional antenna. It's sort of like combining several antennas pointed in different directions all combined onto one coax.


----------



## rd3500

hi guys, I hope I am posting in the right place being an antenna specific question. This is for a home in pahrump, near las vegas stations, here is the reabbitears link: RabbitEars.Info

The home right now has this antenna that seems not good: https://www.amazon.com/Lava-Electronics-HD-2605-Antenna-Control/dp/B002MW0K22/

I have it pointed toward vegas (I think about 110 degrees) and I can get very few channels not well and I have to move it to get other channels. I guess the closet tower is strong enough that it does not matter, the other two towers are in opposite directions...

Looking for recommendations on which antenna to get. I am confused with directional antennas when in the map I see 3 different directions... maybe point a directional where the weakest signal is or put at least 2 antennas?

I have done research here on avs too and my understanding is that this antenna is good: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FVVKQM/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A9OMTW7ZQ3L8&psc=1

but I don't know if it would work in my situation.

The goal is to get the best signal in general, with the major local network most important. I have a 25 ft pool right now on the side of the home where the old antenna is mounted, I can think of putting a long one if needed. Towards Vegas there are no trees near the home, the other direction (towards pahrump) there are some trees.

Any indication appreciated, thanks a lot


----------



## rd3500

rd3500 said:


> I have a 25 ft pool right now on the side of the home where the old antenna is mounted


correction, pole is 10 ft.


----------



## Casey Hartman

Calaveras said:


> The 4221 was modeled on the HDTV Primer page for VHF performance.
> 
> 
> 
> Comparing some commercially available antennas
> 
> 
> 
> Scroll down to the bottom of the page. I wouldn't chose any of those antennas for VHF. Most of them are worse than a dipole which is 2.2 dBi gain. There's another problem that for some reason doesn't show up in the models. Every time I've tried a UHF antenna on high VHF or a high VHF antenna on low VHF, I've found that signals peak roughly +/- 45 degrees from the direction you think they should. If the antennas are pointed at 90 degrees for UHF, on VHF they need to be rotated to 45 degrees or 135 degrees. This combined with mostly negative gain makes them most useless.
> 
> Anyone who lucks out and gets a UHF antenna to work on VHF has simply confirmed that any hunk of metal will act as an antenna if the signals are strong enough.
> 
> Another problem using an antenna off band is that it doesn't have a normal pattern; i.e. a main lobe with signal rejection in every other direction. Because of this you lose the normal multipath rejection you get from a directional antenna. It's sort of like combining several antennas pointed in different directions all combined onto one coax.


I did find it interesting CM claims a VHF gain while AD does not on their bay antennas. The lady who sold me the C5 included a DB4e in her price. Surprisingly they both pick up signals from both bands, but low quality from their non-designed frequency band. With my 2Max, I had to rotate it when switching between VHF and UHF channels.


----------



## Prototype3a

Playing catch up here but are there any thoughts on the Airspy Mini versus others? Seems like a good deal to me at ~$100.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> Playing catch up here but are there any thoughts on the Airspy Mini versus others? Seems like a good deal to me at ~$100.


The Airspy mini is half the price of the R2, but the mini doesn't show a whole TV channel because of its narrower bandwidth.

I have an SDRplay RSP1A and an Airspy R2. The RSP1A shows 10 MHz for a whole channel and the R2 shows 8 MHz for a whole channel. I like the RSP1A better for a whole channel because it has a calibrated dBm scale under certain conditions.

The Spectrum Spy spectrum analyzer software for the R2 gives a much better display than the spectrum analyzer software for the RSP1A. It is my understanding that the Spectrum Spy software is usable with the mini.

I guess it depends upon what you want to do with your SDR.

Sometimes my HDHR4-2US gives interesting results. The tree in front of my antenna was wet from the rain so ch 11 was dropping out at times. The HDHR GUI was showing good signal strength and sufficient signal quality. The symbol quality was 100% at first, but was then all over the place, indicating multipath.

HDHomeRun Config GUI 2020-10-10 20-35-42.mp4

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4bek1ibg76rfp3e/HDHomeRun Config GUI 2020-10-10 20-35-42.mp4?dl=1

What was also interesting was a weak Norfolk channel, WNLO from the front, and 2 weak Richmond channels were coming in on the back of my antenna with a good lock. The HDHR tuner is more sensitive than my Sony tuner.


----------



## Casey Hartman

rabbit73 said:


> The Airspy mini is half the price of the R2, but the mini doesn't show a whole TV channel because of its narrower bandwidth.
> 
> I have an SDRplay RSP1A and an Airspy R2. The RSP1A shows 10 MHz for a whole channel and the R2 shows 8 MHz for a whole channel. I like the RSP1A better for a whole channel because it has a calibrated dBm scale under certain conditions.
> 
> The Spectrum Spy spectrum analyzer software for the R2 gives a much better display than the spectrum analyzer software for the RSP1A. It is my understanding that the Spectrum Spy software is usable with the mini.
> 
> I guess it depends upon what you want to do with your SDR.
> 
> Sometimes my HDHR4-2US gives interesting results. The tree in front of my antenna was wet from the rain so ch 11 was dropping out at times. The HDHR GUI was showing good signal strength and sufficient signal quality. The symbol quality was 100% at first, but was then all over the place, indicating multipath.
> 
> HDHomeRun Config GUI 2020-10-10 20-35-42.mp4
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/4bek1ibg76rfp3e/HDHomeRun Config GUI 2020-10-10 20-35-42.mp4?dl=1
> 
> What was also interesting was a weak Norfolk channel, WNLO from the front, and 2 weak Richmond channels were coming in on the back of my antenna with a good lock. The HDHR tuner is more sensitive than my Sony tuner.


I noticed your HDHR has an APIPA indicating it couldn’t get an IP address from the router. 

My HDHR has a more sensitive tuner than Panasonic my tv, but it is 8 years old. I have noticed the Live Channels app sometimes has a lower picture quality.


----------



## rabbit73

Casey Hartman said:


> I noticed your HDHR has an APIPA indicating it couldn’t get an IP address from the router.
> 
> My HDHR has a more sensitive tuner than Panasonic my tv, but it is 8 years old. I have noticed the Live Channels app sometimes has a lower picture quality.


I don't use a router; it's a direct CAT 5 wired connection from the HDHR to my laptop. I don't use Live Channels; I use VLC Media Player.


----------



## Casey Hartman

rabbit73 said:


> I don't use a router; it's a direct CAT 5 wired connection from the HDHR to my laptop. I don't use Live Channels; I use VLC Media Player.


Cool. I wish the HDHR app had a channel guide, which is why I use Live Channels. Get Channels app has a free version for phones but has a $25 version for MacBooks and streaming devices.


----------



## Prototype3a

Is there a way to get a waterfall graph on the SDRPlay RSP1A?

I think I read somewhere that SDRPlay products basically only work with their own software or something along those lines.



> The symbol quality was 100% at first, but was then all over the place, indicating multipath.


That reminds me. I need to double check the aiming of my south pointing UHF now that the rain seems to have stopped.


----------



## Casey Hartman

I tried this HLSJ a few days ago and the VHF reception was worse when my VHF antenna was connected to LO and UHF one connected to HI. When I reversed them, the signal strength and quality were about the same as when the antennas were connected to a VHF/UHF diplexer. Was the initial HLSJ set up correct or could it be defective?


----------



## Prototype3a

So it seems you can install SDRuno and they have some wav files that you can download and play with.


----------



## johnny antenna

Casey Hartman said:


> I tried this HLSJ a few days ago and the VHF reception was worse when my VHF antenna was connected to LO and UHF one connected to HI. When I reversed them, the signal strength and quality were about the same as when the antennas were connected to a VHF/UHF diplexer. Was the initial HLSJ set up correct or could it be defective?
> 
> View attachment 3045987


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> Is there a way to get a waterfall graph on the SDRPlay RSP1A?


Yes, but if you want more than 10 MHz width you will have to use Spectrum Spy with an R2.

Waterfall 2020-10-12 21-21-53.mp4

https://www.dropbox.com/s/52nix2iloerarb5/Waterfall 2020-10-12 21-21-53.mp4?dl=1


----------



## Digital Rules

Casey Hartman said:


> I tried this HLSJ a few days ago and the VHF reception was worse when my VHF antenna was connected to LO and UHF one connected to HI. When I reversed them, the signal strength and quality were about the same as when the antennas were connected to a VHF/UHF diplexer. Was the initial HLSJ set up correct or could it be defective?
> 
> View attachment 3045987


You should be using a UVSJ, not an HLSJ. The HLSJ is for combining/separating Low VHF from Hi VHF/UHF. It also makes a great FM separator or trap.


----------



## Casey Hartman

Digital Rules said:


> You should be using a UVSJ, not an HLSJ. The HLSJ is for combining/separating Low VHF from Hi VHF/UHF. It also makes a great FM separator or trap.


I knew it acted as a FM trap, but some older posts made me think it could combine signals from 2 antennas as well.


----------



## Prototype3a

rabbit73 said:


> Yes, but if you want more than 10 MHz width you will have to use Spectrum Spy with an R2.


If I only wanted to investigate and fix my problems with 26‑1 (33) WUNL-TV PBS, the RSP1A would probably work but I'll need to see more of the band to figure out what is going on with my other antennas. It seems like a real shame that Spectrum Spy can't work with the RSP1A or that SDRuno doesn't have a similar function. Seems like the answer is Airspy R2 or bust.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> If I only wanted to investigate and fix my problems with 26‑1 (33) WUNL-TV PBS, the RSP1A would probably work but I'll need to see more of the band to figure out what is going on with my other antennas. It seems like a real shame that Spectrum Spy can't work with the RSP1A or that SDRuno doesn't have a similar function. Seems like the answer is Airspy R2 or bust.


You have three choices if you want a scan wider than 10 MHz:

1. For $25: RTL-SDR.COM V3 dongle with free open-source DIY RTLSDR Scanner software from GitHub
2. For $100: SDRplay RSP1A with RSP Spectrum Analyser software
3. For $200: Airspy R2 SDR with Spectrum Spy software that is included with the SDR# (SDRsharp) software download

It might be possible to use the Spectrum Spy software with the Airspy Mini to do what you want, but I haven't checked it out.


----------



## Prototype3a

> RSP Spectrum Analyser software


I haven't seen this one previously or maybe I just missed it.

Can it do the waterfall? 

EDIT: Looks like the manual for the software says "no".

FWIW, I find it interesting that SDRuno can act as a "scanner" (like a Uniden police scanner) but when scanning greater than 10mhz, the waterfall graph in the software is completely broken. It only draws properly when it stops on a signal.

Can you comment on the relative speed or update rate of the RSP1A and Airspy R2 when scanning the same ~50mhz range? I would expect the RSP1A to be faster, I think.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> I haven't seen this one previously or maybe I just missed it.
> 
> Can it (RSP Spectrum Analyser software) do the waterfall?


No, but you might be able to use the Airspy Mini with the Spectrum Spy software which would put it in the same price class.

The description says that the Mini can be used with the Spectrum Spy software, running at a slower speed, but I hesitate saying it will without testing it for myself.


----------



## Prototype3a

I've read elsewhere that the Mini is essentially the same as the R2 and it _can_ be pushed to 10mhz or 10msps or whatever like the R2 but it is not recommended and it gets HOT doing that. I think the major difference is the lack of some sort of precision clock reference that the R2 has which some how removes artifacts when that chip is pushed to 10mhz.

Obviously, this is not my area of expertise...


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> I've read elsewhere that the Mini is essentially the same as the R2 and it _can_ be pushed to 10mhz or 10msps or whatever like the R2 but it is not recommended and it gets HOT doing that. I think the major difference is the lack of some sort of precision clock reference that the R2 has which some how removes artifacts when that chip is pushed to 10mhz.
> 
> Obviously, this is not my area of expertise...


Yes, that is when it is being used with SDR#.

The RTL-SDR.COM V3 dongle also gets hot when doing a long scan with the RTLSDR Scanner.


----------



## Calaveras

Here's an antenna that I haven't seen mentioned here. Maybe I just missed it.






HDTV Antennas & Preamps - Main Trading Company







www.mtcradio.com





This is a "Skip Log" for VHF and UHF TV. I use the term Skip Log to describe a log periodic that doesn't cover all frequencies from its lowest to highest. It has a gap somewhere in the middle. This antenna has 10 elements on UHF and 6 elements on high VHF on a single boom.

I purchased one of these antennas and ran a quick test on it. It is essentially identical to my homemade UHF 8 el LPDA and my VHF 6 el LPDA. It's very light and very inexpensive. Hopefully the blue plastic pieces will hold up in the sun.

I put it up on my tower and compared it to my 14 el VHF yagi and 37 el UHF LPDA. Signals were about about 5 dB weaker than with my big antennas on most stations.



















Dimmed spectrum is either stations in other directions or local noise. I used a KT-200 preamp with the antenna since I have 275' of coax. Low power station channel 14 is the only station that would not decode with the Steren. I've measured its noise margin at just 4 dB on the 37 el LPDA.

For people with stations whose noise margins are 20 dB or more as shown in Rabbitears and don't have extenuating circumstances, this antenna is good enough. It's cheap and hardly visible on the roof at just 4' long. A similar model is very popular in Australia.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> Can you comment on the relative speed or update rate of the RSP1A and Airspy R2 when scanning the same ~50mhz range? I would expect the RSP1A to be faster, I think.


The R2 with Spectrum Spy gives a much faster scan than the RSP1A with RSP Spectrum Analyser (British spelling of analyzer).

Videos for 50 MHz width scan, CHs 16 to 21

RSP1A

RSP Spectrum Analyser - V3.xx API Test version 2020-10-13 14-21-03.mp4

https://www.dropbox.com/s/on2za44ik...API Test version 2020-10-13 14-21-03.mp4?dl=1

R2

Spectrum Spy 2020-10-13 14-34-10.mp4

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bibpvzne8rwltuz/Spectrum Spy 2020-10-13 14-34-10.mp4?dl=1


----------



## Prototype3a

What is this IF-kHz?

IIRC "Blackman" is a type of FFT display method or calculation or whatever and NFFT should be the number of bins being used for the FFT.










Spectrum Spy doesn't appear to have settings for the scan so I have to wonder if it is either collecting less data or otherwise optimizing the scan parameters for the "resolution" of the display window to achieve that faster update rate.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> Spectrum Spy doesn't appear to have settings for the scan so I have to wonder if it is either collecting less data or otherwise optimizing the scan parameters for the "resolution" of the display window to achieve that faster update rate.


Yes, Spectrum Spy is just an enhanced spectrum scan with adjustable gain. You increase the gain to the point just before the noise floor starts to rise for the best representation of SNR. Sometimes I will add the gain markings which are on a 0 to 21 scale as on SDR#:



















The RSP Spectrum Analyser tries to simulate what a real spectrum analyzer does. You have to be careful with the Display scaling settings to get a correct representation of SNR. Manual:
https://www.sdrplay.com/docs/RSP-SpectrumAnalyser-V1.1.pdf

Setting RSP Spectrum Analyser Level Reference Level



> Reference Level
> A common error is a complaint that signals with a 40-50 dB SNR as displayed on SDRuno, shows a signal barely breaking through the noise floor on the analyser. In almost all cases, AGC is enabled on SDRuno, and the LNA gain reduction slider set at a low gain reduction value resulting in a lower noise floor. IF gain reduction will be whatever the AGC system sets it at.
> 
> Conversely, the analyser is usually set at a high reference level of somewhere between -30 to+10 dBm, has a very high noise floor and sees little or no signal above the noise. This is usuallycaused by the user attempting to use the reference level control to position the trace within the display area, instead of using the range and offset controls provided for this purpose.
> 
> The reference level should initially be set to around -80 dBm, while ensuring the ADC is not overloaded and spurious signals are not generated. This will give maximum sensitivity and a lower noise floor. Increasing the reference level towards 0 dBm will result in an increasing noise floor, and depending on signal level, may result a lower S/N ratio. Use the range and offset controls to scale and position the display as required.


----------



## tustinfarm

I noticed that the very inexpensive Tiny Spectrum Analyzer (tinysa.org) is now available. Can be had for <$60 and provides spectrum display up to 960 MHz. Depending on the sensitivity, it might be a great portable tool for assessing TV signals. I normally use the SDRPlay or RTL-SDR units for viewing the signal quality, but the idea of a handheld device (without an attached PC or smartphone) seems _very _appealing. Hoping one of the experts here can take a look at the specs. and render an opinion on its utility for TV antenna work. Alternatively this topic may have already been covered in detail in another thread so please point the way.


----------



## rabbit73

tustinfarm said:


> I noticed that the very inexpensive Tiny Spectrum Analyzer (tinysa.org) is now available. Can be had for <$60 and provides spectrum display up to 960 MHz.


Thanks for the tip; that looks like a lot of fun.

My old eyes need a larger screen.


----------



## Prototype3a

Looks to me like it is based on the RTL-SDR chipset.


----------



## rabbit73

Looks more like a mod of a nanoVNA


----------



## SBRUSKI

Good links for antenna setup and teknical factoids. Enjoy!

Great info for new cord cutters and geeks.





Television Broadcast Frequencies


A television station broadcast Radio Frequency (RF) channel is allocated 6 MHz of bandwidth for over-the-air transmission in part of the VHF or UHF Radio Frequency Band. The VHF Television Band has 12 RF channels, and has been in use since 1947. The band is sometimes subdivided into VHF-Lo (RF...



otadtv.com




Across the pond info. Great info and the cowboys section is very funny.
Warning: ENGLISH spoken here!





Home Page - A.T.V. Poles, Brackets, Clamps & Aerials


Full page list You've landed on probably the best, and certainly the most extensive installations site on the entire Internet and in 2021 we had 175,000 visitors with 520,000 page hits. In fact even “the trade” use this site. Actually, … Read More




www.aerialsandtv.com









Cowboys' Locker (awful aerial installations) - A.T.V. Poles, Brackets, Clamps & Aerials


Also see : - Cowboys’ Locker page 2 - Cowboys’ Locker page 3 - Cowboys’ Locker page 4 - You’ve Only Got To Look At All The Others A decent quality aerial installation should last 20 to 30 years or … Read More




www.aerialsandtv.com




Good info for the combi IP/OTA crowd.





TV - Grounded Reason


This is the top category page for articles on cutting the cord. Sub-categories include information on streaming TV, using a TV antenna, watching sports and more. -




www.groundedreason.com




Info in frequency and good installation practices.





Antennas Direct | Learning Center


Antennas Direct is home to the world's most comprehensive and powerful line of TV and HDTV antennas. Visit our Learning Center to learn more about our products.




www.antennasdirect.com




TV Guide for OTA and Cable





Like TitanTV


TitanTV offers fast, customizable TV listings for local broadcasting, cable and satellite lineups. Quickly view program, episode, cast credits, and additional airing information.



www.titantv.com


----------



## Casey Hartman

SBRUSKI said:


> Good links for antenna setup and teknical factoids. Enjoy!
> 
> Great info for new cord cutters and geeks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Television Broadcast Frequencies
> 
> 
> A television station broadcast Radio Frequency (RF) channel is allocated 6 MHz of bandwidth for over-the-air transmission in part of the VHF or UHF Radio Frequency Band. The VHF Television Band has 12 RF channels, and has been in use since 1947. The band is sometimes subdivided into VHF-Lo (RF...
> 
> 
> 
> otadtv.com


I found OTADTV a few weeks ago when looking to see what frequency RF 39 uses after noticing my antenna receiving 100% signal strength on it, but no quality. A cellular provider must have installed a 5G tower near my home.


----------



## Prototype3a

I wouldn't be surprised if NanoVNA and TinySA used a lot of the same hardware (screen, case, "computer").

Seems like I'm getting REALLY bad signal from WBRA lately at almost random times. Other times it is perfect. I'm guessing someone is turning something on that is generating a ton of interference or maybe something in my system is intermittently broken?


----------



## rabbit73

Casey Hartman said:


> I found OTADTV a few weeks ago when looking to see what frequency RF 39 uses after noticing my antenna receiving 100% signal strength on it, but no quality. A cellular provider must have installed a 5G tower near my home.


I have cellular at the same frequency:


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> Seems like I'm getting REALLY bad signal from WBRA lately at almost random times. Other times it is perfect. I'm guessing someone is turning something on that is generating a ton of interference or maybe something in my system is intermittently broken?


Probably interference. My noise level is very high on channel 3.


----------



## Trip in VA

Casey Hartman said:


> I found OTADTV a few weeks ago when looking to see what frequency RF 39 uses after noticing my antenna receiving 100% signal strength on it, but no quality. A cellular provider must have installed a 5G tower near my home.


T-Mobile has been running LTE on 600 MHz since last year, and they've been adding 600 MHz gear to their sites at a pretty rapid clip. They've since added 5G-NR to some of them since then as well.



Prototype3a said:


> Seems like I'm getting REALLY bad signal from WBRA lately at almost random times. Other times it is perfect. I'm guessing someone is turning something on that is generating a ton of interference or maybe something in my system is intermittently broken?


WBRA's signal being eaten by interference? Nothing new there, unfortunately.

- Trip


----------



## Prototype3a

Does anyone know if it is possible to build a "single channel" long range UHF antenna?


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> Does anyone know if it is possible to build a "single channel" long range UHF antenna?


Yes, if you mean the most gain on the channel you want.

But if you mean an antenna that will receive the channel you want and reject other channels, only a filter can do that.

What channel is your problem channel?


----------



## rabbit73

What channel is your problem channel?
current report for your location:
RabbitEars.Info

I see a lot of trees


----------



## Prototype3a

I was thinking maximum gain on 26‑1 (33) WUNL-TV PBS and less gain every where else to make a filter/tuner/whatever have an easier job.

I actually have a fairly clear view south but I do intend to try locating the antenna a bit further east to give it more "tree clearance".


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> What is this IF-kHz? (for the RSP Spectrum Analyser)
> 
> IIRC "Blackman" is a type of FFT display method or calculation or whatever and NFFT should be the number of bins being used for the FFT.
> 
> View attachment 3046423
> 
> 
> Spectrum Spy doesn't appear to have settings for the scan so I have to wonder if it is either collecting less data or otherwise optimizing the scan parameters for the "resolution" of the display window to achieve that faster update rate.


I did some tests with the SDRplay RSP1A and the RSP Spectrum Analyser that show why it is important to use the correct Reference level setting. If you don't use the proper reference level, part or all of the signal will be buried in the noise:


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> I was thinking maximum gain on 26‑1 (33) WUNL-TV PBS and less gain every where else to make a filter/tuner/whatever have an easier job.
> 
> I actually have a fairly clear view south but I do intend to try locating the antenna a bit further east to give it more "tree clearance".


That is a difficult, but perhaps not impossible, signal path.










using different profile software:










no color in your area indicates poor coverage:


----------



## Prototype3a

For what it's worth....










I'm pretty motivated to get it since they still air The Woodwright's Shop. They also air Milk Street in HD where WBRA seems to only air Milk Street on their SD channel.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> For what it's worth....
> 
> View attachment 3047370
> 
> 
> I'm pretty motivated to get it since they still air The Woodwright's Shop. They also air Milk Street in HD where WBRA seems to only air Milk Street on their SD channel.


That looks good to me.


----------



## Prototype3a

Yeah, it's pretty good _most_ of the time. Signal breaks up probably every 30seconds or so. It is very inconsistent and I haven't found a way to fix the breakups in the recording files yet.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> Yeah, it's pretty good _most_ of the time. Signal breaks up probably every 30seconds or so. It is very inconsistent and I haven't found a way to fix the breakups in the recording files yet.


The signal strength looks adequate and the signal quality is well above the 50% minimum, so the symbol quality must drop when there is a problem.

That's very similar to what happens to my channel 11 when the tree in front of the antenna is wet. I consider it multipath.

Symbol quality starts out at 100% and then drops, goes up to 100% at 00:15, then drops again.

HDHomeRun Config GUI 2020-10-10 20-35-42.mp4

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4bek1ibg76rfp3e/HDHomeRun Config GUI 2020-10-10 20-35-42.mp4?dl=1


----------



## Prototype3a

Shucks. I meant to take a photo while I was on the roof blowing leaves out of the gutters. :-/

Cordless leaf blowers sure are handy.

I really wonder if the problems I'm seeing are the nearby tree causing multipath...


----------



## Prototype3a

You can sort of see that there is maybe 5ft of clearance between the maple tree and the big UHF on top of my mast.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> You can sort of see that there is maybe 5ft of clearance between the maple tree and the big UHF on top of my mast.












Thank you for the interesting photo of your antennas. I see 3 UHF and 1 VHF. Is the big UHF on top aimed south for WUNL?

I don't think the trees near the antenna are as important as the trees in front of the antenna.


----------



## Prototype3a

Yup. Big UHF pointed south for WUNL, UHF/VHF pointed sorta north east for Roanoke and the one at the bottom is sort of hiding behind the house and pointed west at a couple stations in WV but it isn't actually connected right now.


----------



## tustinfarm

rabbit73 said:


> Looks more like a mod of a nanoVNA


The tinySA was indeed designed and made by the same folks that brought us the nanoVNA....however the innards are completely different and are based on a Si4432 transceiver chipset And as with nanoVNA there is a PC program that can be use to control it and acquire nice large signal plots that are hard to see on the tiny screen.


----------



## tustinfarm

I am delighted to report that the tiny SA works well as a pocket sized device to "sniff" the TV signal environment. The attached snapshot shows part of the UHF spectrum, where RF 22 WPBN, RF26 WCMU , and RF32 WFQX are solid signals in this rural MI location, using a small whip antenna supplied with the device. Keep in mind the multipath at this specific location is horrendous since the towers are mainly on the other side of a hill.


----------



## Calaveras

Antenna Installation Success Story

My sister was getting tired of paying high satellite TV bills so I suggested OTA for her. It took a year for her to come around but we agreed to run a test to see how well it worked at her home. She's in Yucaipa, CA, 62 miles from the Mt. Wilson transmitters. Her Rabbitears report showed many stations ranging from 30-50 dB noise margin. Her path was LOS except for a couple of close in Ash trees to look through. I was concerned about the trees. I brought with me a Steren 16 element high VHF/UHF LPDA (4 ft long) and a KT-200 preamp. She shouldn't need a large antenna and if she did then it was't going to happen. She was fine with a roof mounted antenna.

I mounted it 4 feet above the roof peak looking through a couple of trees. I ran the initial tests with my 7" MyGoTV since I knew the tuner was good. Her TV is a year 2000 model. All but three high VHF/UHF channels were received and most had SNRs above 30 dB. Channel 8 was marginal but it had only 600 watts ERP in her direction from 62 miles away.

After it seemed like all was working well we connected the antenna to her old TV. This TV never had had an antenna connected to it. The channel scan got 114 channels ! She is thrilled with all the channels and the great picture quality.

I didn't have time to capture a bunch of spectrum analyzer traces. Maybe next trip. The Steren didn't receive anything on low VHF even though stations were in her report. RF 5 was one of the three not received. RF 10 appeared not to be on the air when I looked at the analyzer. RF 27 was not received and it's not clear why. All the network stations had terrific signals.

All my tests indicate that the Steren is about 5 dB down from my largest and best antennas. Anyone with reasonable noise margins should find this or a similar antenna with a preamp to be adequate.


----------



## onwisconsin

Has anyone tried Philips Electronics new outdoor pre-amp SDV9119N/27? Seems pretty legit, even the marketing copy looks fairly sane (outside of the gimmicky signal LEDs) .


https://www.amazon.com/Amplifier-Low-Strength-Pixelated-SDV9119N-27/dp/B08HVT5789/


----------



## Casey Hartman

onwisconsin said:


> Has anyone tried Philips Electronics new outdoor pre-amp SDV9119N/27? Seems pretty legit, even the marketing copy looks fairly sane (outside of the gimmicky signal LEDs) .
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Amplifier-Low-Strength-Pixelated-SDV9119N-27/dp/B08HVT5789/


I have not used it. The product description on Amazon doesn't state any specs and I didn't find it on ByJasco's website to see if they are listed there.


----------



## onwisconsin

Casey Hartman said:


> I have not used it. The product description on Amazon doesn't state any specs and I didn't find it on ByJasco's website to see if they are listed there.


There also appears to be a version without the LEDs, which has an reported 25dB gain: https://www.amazon.com/dp/b08958hvpd


----------



## jimbobub1

Steve347 said:


> I don't think that this is a foregone conclusion. What you'll have is 3dB more signal which shouldn't be needed in an urban setting.
> 
> 
> Yes, it dropped the signal by 3 dB off of what was the front side of the antenna and opened up the back side to reception of the stations in the other direction.


I suggest the Avant X by Televes. You can combine up to 4 different antennas. It assigns and/or blocks channels that you program from each antenna. You can even change channels to different ones. I believe that it will power mast amps too. None of the antennas will influence the others. Its a few hundred dollars. If you purchase it be sure to get the American market 6 mhz and not the European model 8 mhz. Analog, ATSC 1 or ATSC 3 doesn't matter.


----------



## bernieoc

Just moved in my retirement home to a new apartment with a balcony facing Roanoke (50 miles) and Bedford (20 miles) Within 3/4 degree of each other. and 88 degrees to balcony.
Rabbit ears gets everything but PBS ch 3
I made a 1/2 wave CH 3 ( 80 something inches long) attached to my balcony railing ( ch 3 Roanoke - ch7 Bedford) and all UHV from Roanoke. All good - (including CH 3)
Problem 1 - New kitchen LED with circle array of many diodes kills CH 3 to garbage. Immediately with on/off switch
Other apartment led lights have no effect.
Problem 2 - Antenna split to 2 TV's ( Channel master amp with green light setting ) All ok with both TV's
except Ch 3 only works when only one TV on - when both on CH3 on both is the same as kitchen light on.
We use DVR+ on both tv's and must work around our CH 3 recording schedule to be sure only one TV is on and 
kitchen light is off. 

Is there something missing that I can try?


----------



## jkeldo

jimbobub1 said:


> I suggest the Avant X by Televes. You can combine up to 4 different antennas. It assigns and/or blocks channels that you program from each antenna. You can even change channels to different ones. I believe that it will power mast amps too. None of the antennas will influence the others. Its a few hundred dollars. If you purchase it be sure to get the American market 6 mhz and not the European model 8 mhz. Analog, ATSC 1 or ATSC 3 doesn't matter.


I've read about this unit which costs around $400. or so but does not seem to be available when searching for it but it does sound interesting.


----------



## Casey Hartman

jkeldo said:


> I've read about this unit which costs around $400. or so but does not seem to be available when searching for it but it does sound interesting.


I know TEquipment can order it. I haven't asked Solid Signal, Multicom, or other retailers who carry Televes products about the AvantX .


----------



## Calaveras

bernieoc said:


> Problem 2 - Antenna split to 2 TV's ( Channel master amp with green light setting ) All ok with both TV's
> except Ch 3 only works when only one TV on - when both on CH3 on both is the same as kitchen light on.
> We use DVR+ on both tv's and must work around our CH 3 recording schedule to be sure only one TV is on and
> kitchen light is off.
> 
> Is there something missing that I can try?


Do I understand correctly that your channel 3 dipole is split to 2 DVRs which is each connected to a TV and it is okay on either TV as long as the other is turned off? If both TVs are turned on then there's no channel 3 on either TV? That wouldn't make any sense. Turning a TV ON/OFF doesn't change the signal going to either DVR. 

OTOH, turning on the same TV makes channel 3 go away on both then it's likely the offending TV is interfering with the antenna because they are too close together.


----------



## rabbit73

bernieoc said:


> Just moved in my retirement home to a new apartment with a balcony facing Roanoke (50 miles) and Bedford (20 miles) Within 3/4 degree of each other. and 88 degrees to balcony.
> Rabbit ears gets everything but PBS ch 3


Hello, bernieoc; thanks for the update about your new apartment.


> I made a 1/2 wave CH 3 attached to my balcony railing ( ch 3 Roanoke - ch7 Bedford) and all UHV from Roanoke. All good - (including CH 3)


Glad to hear the CH3 antenna is working well enough to receive CH3.


> Problem 1 - New kitchen LED with circle array of many diodes kills CH 3 to garbage. Immediately with on/off switch
> Other apartment led lights have no effect.


As you have found out, some LED lights cause interference, and others don't. It's either replace them or turn them off. Now you know why there aren't many channels on VHF-Low 2-6.


> Problem 2 - Antenna split to 2 TV's ( Channel master amp with green light setting ) All ok with both TV's
> except Ch 3 only works when only one TV on - when both on CH3 on both is the same as kitchen light on.


Are you saying that one of the TVs is causing interference, or it doesn't matter which TV is the only one on?


> We use DVR+ on both tv's and must work around our CH 3 recording schedule to be sure only one TV is on and
> kitchen light is off.


That sounds like a good way to deal with the problem until you find a better solution.


> Is there something missing that I can try?


Not that I can think of at the moment.

The basic rules are keep the antenna as far away from the source of interference as possible, and try to reduce the source of interference.

It sounds like the CH3 signal is fairly strong, but the source of interference is strong enough to reduce the SNR of CH3 below 15 dB.

The noise on VHF-High 7-13 is higher than on UHF, and the noise on VHF-Low 2-6 is even higher than on VHF-High. This means that the signals on 2-6 must be much stronger than on 7-13 and UHF to have sufficient SNR above the noise.

There are inexpensive diagnostic tools that can show you how bad the interference is. Here is my channel 3 using a $25 RTL-SDR.COM dongle using free open-source DIY software that isn't too easy to set up.










Here is the same dongle with free ready-to-use SDR# (SDRsharp) software. It only shows part of a channel and the adjacent noise, but is sufficient to estimate the SNR:




























The $200 Airspy R2 with the Spectrum Spy software is more expensive, but it shows more than one channel and the noise:


----------



## cpalmer2k

jkeldo said:


> I've read about this unit which costs around $400. or so but does not seem to be available when searching for it but it does sound interesting.


I actually have one of these new in the box I would sell. Bought it straight from their US office. PM me if interested in. I was going to set it up but just ended up using two separate HDHomeRun devices instead.


----------



## jimbobub1

tustinfarm said:


> Helping a friend in another state (near Grand Rapids, MI) troubleshoot an antenna problem. Has an antenna tower (30 feet high I'd guess) and antennas that are probably at least 30 years old. He is not technically inclined at all, so he turned to a TV signal "nut" like me for advice. He says (virtual) channels 3 & 8 (both hi-VHF) have been spotty recently. Goal is to receive the main TV networks reliably, not every last channel that can be squeezed out. I asked him to send me a picture of what he has (snapshots attached). I believe the multi-band antenna in the middle of the stack is pointed toward the SE. Here is the link to the rabbitears report:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RabbitEars.Info
> 
> 
> RabbitEars, where you can learn all about local, over-the-air TV channels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rabbitears.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are my conclusions so far, but I am highly interested in what the experts here have to say...and I'm also curious if the specific models of the antennas might be identified. I have no idea how they are being combined (yikes!)...
> 
> 1) _Multiple_ antenna systems are fraught with problems, depending on how they are combined/filtered etc. Should be fine with single antenna, with the stronger signals on the backside adequate. I suspect that whoever put them in decades ago was focused on containing the cleanest analog signals, to minimize ghosts and snow in the picture.
> 2) The odd loop sticking out looks like a driven element that has fallen off or slipped off position - that seems highly likely to be the culprit in reliability problems for the hi-VHF stations.
> 3) Coax that is _decades _old ought to be replaced.
> 4) Having a _single _antenna should be adequate for that location, even though some stations will be off totally angle.


Try the Avant X from Televes. It is good for combining up to 4 antennas. According to the picture with the antennas in different directions this gadget would make for the perfect setup.


----------



## jimbobub1

hdtvluvr said:


> My daughter lives in an apartment and would like to get TV OTA. She lives on the 3rd floor on the north side of the complex. An outside antenna isn't an option as she doesn't even have a balcony. I think the stations around 300 degrees, although RabbitEars says "Good", are out because I think that would be in a direction that the signals would have to pass through multiple apartments before reaching hers.
> 
> Any idea of indoor antenna suggestions that have a chance of working? Here is the RabbitEars report


You could build a folded dipole for channel 5. The info for it is easy to find. If you still have problems you can always ask for help here.


----------



## Casey Hartman

Is AirSpy compatible with MacOS?


----------



## rabbit73

Casey Hartman said:


> Is AirSpy compatible with MacOS?


It's primarily for Windows. Maybe you can do it with a Virtual Machine on your Mac:
Airspy on MacBook Pro

Do Google search:
MacOS for Airspy

Google search:
Boot Camp Windows 10 on Mac


----------



## Prototype3a

So... I found this Yagi calculator application...






Yagi Calculator


Amateur radio related projects and code




www.vk5dj.com





Any ideas for something that I could use for a ~16' yagi spine? 

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Common-x-x...ed-Steel-Chain-Link-Fence-Top-Rail/1000005090 



In other news, I haven't been able to figure out what is interferring with WBRA. Whatever it is, it seems to be on a light switch as sometimes it's on and sometimes it is definitely off. I tried turning off just about everything I could think of in our house and nothing changed so I'm guessing it is a neighbor...


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> So... I found this Yagi calculator application...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yagi Calculator
> 
> 
> Amateur radio related projects and code
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vk5dj.com


Are you trying to make a UHF antenna for WUNL with more gain than your present big UHF antenna?



> Any ideas for something that I could use for a ~16' yagi spine?
> 
> https://www.lowes.com/pd/Common-x-x...ed-Steel-Chain-Link-Fence-Top-Rail/1000005090


That would be too big and heavy for a UHF Yagi boom; more suitable as a mast.


> In other news, I haven't been able to figure out what is interferring with WBRA. Whatever it is, it seems to be on a light switch as sometimes it's on and sometimes it is definitely off. I tried turning off just about everything I could think of in our house and nothing changed so I'm guessing it is a neighbor...


You have to turn everything off in your house to be certain your house isn't the source. If it isn't your house, it could be a neighbor or the power lines.

Here is an example of severe powerline noise on VHF-High:










My noise level for channel 3 is very high:


----------



## Prototype3a

I wonder if I could buy this antenna's little brother for the directors and then re-space them/optimize it/extend it for RF 33.


----------



## Neil L

You could...but, if it were truly optimized for RF33, the directors would have to be bigger, the dipole would need to be larger and the reflector would likely need to be bigger too. Then the spacing between elements could be adjusted. In other words, a complete re-design would be in order. And all for a couple dB more gain on RF33. Probably not worth the effort IMHO.


----------



## Prototype3a

So, just build a new one from scratch. Rodger Dodger.


----------



## Calaveras

Prototype3a said:


> I wonder if I could buy this antenna's little brother for the directors and then re-space them/optimize it/extend it for RF 33.


This antenna has been optimized for channels 14-36. 









XB16A Aerial - A.T.V. Poles, Brackets, Clamps & Aerials


The XB16A is the correct aerial for A group transmitters for sites in the poorest signal areas. “Hard wired” dipole which is preferable for weather proofing…. Carriage charges Non UK orders ALWAYS incur a carriage surcharge, please contact us for a quote BEFORE ordering !… Read More




www.aerialsandtv.com





This is probably as good as you can do. Stack 2 antennas for a couple more dB gain.


----------



## Calaveras

I've been testing some antennas over the last few months and what I found is that there is rarely more than 6 dB gain difference between the smallest antenna and the largest, maybe 8 dB on some channels or between the very smallest and the very largest antennas. Attached are a couple typical comparisons between antennas.

Channel 9 - 6 el LPDA on a 3.5' boom and a 14 el yagi on a 10' boom











UHF Band on an 8 el LPDA on a 2' boom and a 37 el LPDA on a 10' boom (K28OY is an anomaly)


----------



## Prototype3a

Calaveras said:


> This antenna has been optimized for channels 14-36.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> XB16A Aerial - A.T.V. Poles, Brackets, Clamps & Aerials
> 
> 
> The XB16A is the correct aerial for A group transmitters for sites in the poorest signal areas. “Hard wired” dipole which is preferable for weather proofing…. Carriage charges Non UK orders ALWAYS incur a carriage surcharge, please contact us for a quote BEFORE ordering !… Read More
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aerialsandtv.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is probably as good as you can do. Stack 2 antennas for a couple more dB gain.


What do you use to combine "stacked" antennas? I was doing some reading on that and it sounded interesting as I believe the vertical spacing changes the gain the antennas have to the sides. Do you just use a simple splitter? I would expect the insertion loss of the splitter to negate much of the additional gain but what I've read suggests that stacking can increase the net gain by ~2db.

Also, do those guys even ship to the US? Do they have a US "dealer" ?


----------



## Neil L

Calaveras said:


> I've been testing some antennas over the last few months and what I found is that there is rarely more than 6 dB gain difference between the smallest antenna and the largest.


That's about as expected, but 6-dB is four times more signal. That is not at all insignificant! In a strong signal area, the extra gain is just not necessary, unless you have a lot of loss after the antenna. But, in a weak signal area, even an extra two or three dB can make the difference between reception or not.


----------



## Calaveras

Prototype3a said:


> What do you use to combine "stacked" antennas? I was doing some reading on that and it sounded interesting as I believe the vertical spacing changes the gain the antennas have to the sides. Do you just use a simple splitter? I would expect the insertion loss of the splitter to negate much of the additional gain but what I've read suggests that stacking can increase the net gain by ~2db.
> 
> Also, do those guys even ship to the US? Do they have a US "dealer" ?


You can use a 2 way splitter in reverse to combine antennas but a near zero loss solution is to use a 1/4 wave matching section cut for the center of the UHF band. That would be 3.6" of RG-58.
I'm using such a combiner for my pair of XG91s. I've also replaced the standard XG91 balun with a coax balun that is also much lower loss than the standard balun. 

I believe they'll ship to the US but there's no US dealer.


----------



## Calaveras

Neil L said:


> That's about as expected, but 6-dB is four times more signal. That is not at all insignificant! In a strong signal area, the extra gain is just not necessary, unless you have a lot of loss after the antenna. But, in a weak signal area, even an extra two or three dB can make the difference between reception or not.


Under the right circumstances 2-3 dB can make a big difference. At my current location the daily variations in signal strength is only a few dB so 2-3 dB could be helpful. At my last location I could see 10-20 dB over 24 hours so a few dB wasn't very helpful. Generally it has been recommended for years on this forum that 10-20 dB Noise Margin is needed to assure that the weaker stations don't drop out at times.

At my current location there is only one station that cannot be received on the 2' LPDA from my main transmitter site. That's channel 14 which has just a 4 dB noise margin and you can see how weak it is on the display in my post above. Any other weak stations are unstable on any antenna.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

Calaveras said:


> Here's an antenna that I haven't seen mentioned here. Maybe I just missed it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HDTV Antennas & Preamps - Main Trading Company
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mtcradio.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a "Skip Log" for VHF and UHF TV. I use the term Skip Log to describe a log periodic that doesn't cover all frequencies from its lowest to highest. It has a gap somewhere in the middle. This antenna has 10 elements on UHF and 6 elements on high VHF on a single boom.
> 
> I purchased one of these antennas and ran a quick test on it. It is essentially identical to my homemade UHF 8 el LPDA and my VHF 6 el LPDA. It's very light and very inexpensive. Hopefully the blue plastic pieces will hold up in the sun.
> 
> I put it up on my tower and compared it to my 14 el VHF yagi and 37 el UHF LPDA. Signals were about about 5 dB weaker than with my big antennas on most stations.
> 
> View attachment 3046178
> 
> 
> View attachment 3046179
> 
> 
> Dimmed spectrum is either stations in other directions or local noise. I used a KT-200 preamp with the antenna since I have 275' of coax. Low power station channel 14 is the only station that would not decode with the Steren. I've measured its noise margin at just 4 dB on the 37 el LPDA.
> 
> For people with stations whose noise margins are 20 dB or more as shown in Rabbitears and don't have extenuating circumstances, this antenna is good enough. It's cheap and hardly visible on the roof at just 4' long. A similar model is very popular in Australia.
> 
> View attachment 3046441


Hi Calaveras, Would this be a good candidate for a quad stack / gang ? I saw an article where a guy bought 10 of them for less than $100. Shipping included.


----------



## Calaveras

ChiwaukeeOTA said:


> Hi Calaveras, Would this be a good candidate for a quad stack / gang ? I saw an article where a guy bought 10 of them for less than $100. Shipping included.


No. The optimum stacking space is 3X as far apart on high VHF as it is on UHF. There's no decent compromise.


----------



## greg9x2

tustinfarm said:


> I am delighted to report that the tiny SA works well as a pocket sized device to "sniff" the TV signal environment. The attached snapshot shows part of the UHF spectrum, where RF 22 WPBN, RF26 WCMU , and RF32 WFQX are solid signals in this rural MI location, using a small whip antenna supplied with the device. Keep in mind the multipath at this specific location is horrendous since the towers are mainly on the other side of a hill.


Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Ordered one. I am able to "borrow" the $60K Fieldfox SpecAn from work, but not really officially and worry about something happening to it. For $60 to have my own (of course with much less capability) will be nice and always on hand.

Now to see if can find any better locations in attic since fall has come and have the opposite problem of most, that when the leaves fall off the trees I lose stations. Not sure if get better signal when it reflects off leaves, or if stronger signal causing more reflections in attic.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

Calaveras said:


> No. The optimum stacking space is 3X as far apart on high VHF as it is on UHF. There's no decent compromise.


 Was this a particularly decent antenna for UHF ONLY ? So if you wanted to stack them for UHF and used a UVSJ to block the VHF you would probably be okay? Or LPDA's not work that way ?


----------



## Calaveras

ChiwaukeeOTA said:


> Was this a particularly decent antenna for UHF ONLY ? So if you wanted to stack them for UHF and used a UVSJ to block the VHF you would probably be okay? Or LPDA's not work that way ?


They're just an average antenna. There'd be no reason to stack these. Stacking is usually reserved for large antennas when one is still not enough.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

Calaveras said:


> They're just an average antenna. There'd be no reason to stack these. Stacking is usually reserved for large antennas when one is still not enough.


I figured as much. Thanks. What are the guys on one of the Facebook pages bought the 10 pack of those Steren antennas for less than $100 including shipping.

He was going to try to stack four and give the rest away. 😄


----------



## Steve Weinrich

Question about antenna switching:

Other than getting a pin-diode rf switch to do rf switching, is there an inexpensive wirelessly controlled a/b switch? I actually wrote to a company about that., but never got a reply.

I have 2 antenna coax's coming into my basement, and I want to be upstairs and sitting on my couch, select the better antenna for a given channel to drive my house coax.

Any ideas? Thanks.


----------



## rabbit73

Steve Weinrich said:


> Question about antenna switching:
> 
> Other than getting a pin-diode rf switch to do rf switching, is there an inexpensive wirelessly controlled a/b switch?


Wireless antenna switches are rare if you do a Google search:
Bluetooth
Wireless antenna switch
out of stock
WiFi Wireless Ham Antenna Switch 4 with Status by Snaptekk on Tindie

If you search on Amazon for *wireless antenna switch*, you get a more diverse selection that includes wireless light switches and wireless remote control.

Another possibility is X10 Home Automation switching which uses control over the AC power line.

If there is no DC on the coax between the basement and your TV location for a preamp, you could use this to switch a relay:










The relay could be continuous duty or latching. Inexpensive TV power inserters can be used for the bias-Ts.


----------



## Casey Hartman

Steve Weinrich said:


> Question about antenna switching:
> 
> Other than getting a pin-diode rf switch to do rf switching, is there an inexpensive wirelessly controlled a/b switch? I actually wrote to a company about that., but never got a reply.
> 
> I have 2 antenna coax's coming into my basement, and I want to be upstairs and sitting on my couch, select the better antenna for a given channel to drive my house coax.
> 
> Any ideas? Thanks.


Radio Shack has an A/B switch with a remote.





Amazon.com: Radio Shack, Remote Control A/B Switch for 75 ohm Coax.: Home Audio & Theater


Buy Radio Shack, Remote Control A/B Switch for 75 ohm Coax.: Remote Controls - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com


----------



## Calaveras

Casey Hartman said:


> Radio Shack has an A/B switch with a remote.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Radio Shack, Remote Control A/B Switch for 75 ohm Coax.: Home Audio & Theater
> 
> 
> Buy Radio Shack, Remote Control A/B Switch for 75 ohm Coax.: Remote Controls - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com


I don't think this will work because it requires line of sight and his switch is in the basement and he's upstairs. Also it's not available new.


----------



## jkeldo

Steve Weinrich said:


> Question about antenna switching:
> 
> Other than getting a pin-diode rf switch to do rf switching, is there an inexpensive wirelessly controlled a/b switch? I actually wrote to a company about that., but never got a reply.
> 
> I have 2 antenna coax's coming into my basement, and I want to be upstairs and sitting on my couch, select the better antenna for a given channel to drive my house coax.
> 
> Any ideas? Thanks.


I have one of the Radio Shack models. The number is 15-1968 although there are others I believe. They haven't been made for years. Check eBay but some are priced really high. I paid around $25-30 for mine not too long ago but most will be used but some might be old stock.


----------



## rabbit73

Casey Hartman said:


> Radio Shack has an A/B switch with a remote.
> http://[URL]https://www.amazon.com/Radio-Shack-Remote-Control-Switch/dp/B000H50L9S[/URL]


The RS 15-1968 is a neat remote switch that is no longer made and commands a premium price on the used market, but it uses IR not RF for remote control.


----------



## jkeldo

rabbit73 said:


> The RS 15-1968 is a neat remote switch that is no longer made and commands a premium price on the used market, but it uses IR not RF for remote control.
> 
> View attachment 3053771


You are correct regarding the IR issue. However, since his switch is in the basement, he could use the unit above with an IR extender which Radio Shack also used to make:






Amazon.com: RadioShack Wireless IR Remote Extender: Home Audio & Theater


Amazon.com: RadioShack Wireless IR Remote Extender: Home Audio & Theater



www.amazon.com





As I said previously, the remote switch comes up on eBay a lot cheaper from time to time. There are some around $50-60 now but previously, they were around $35 so those that are $100 and up are way too high.


----------



## Steve Weinrich

rabbit73 said:


> The RS 15-1968 is a neat remote switch that is no longer made ancommands a premium price on the used market, but it uses IR not RF for remote control.
> 
> View attachment 3053771


Thanks for this suggestion. Wireless is what I'd like, but if I was more ambitious, a fiber optic cable
could link my upstairs couch to my downstairs switcher. My wife would not let me get away with that because I already have enough ethernet cables all over the house!
I just bought an $8 ebay manual A/B switch, and I was thinking about using a solenoid to physically control the channel choice, after combining it with an inexpensive wireless controller


----------



## Calaveras

Steve Weinrich said:


> Wireless is what I'd like, but if I was more ambitious, a fiber optic cable could link my upstairs couch to my downstairs switcher. My wife would not let me get away with that because I already have enough ethernet cables all over the house!


You might be able to do this without the wife seeing another cable.









JFW 75S-111 12V 75Ohm Coax 1P2T RF Electro-Mechanical DC-2150 MHz Signal Switch | eBay


JFW Model #: 75S-111. Frequency Stop: 2150 MHz. Frequency Start: 0 Mhz (DC). RF Input Power: +20 dBm. Switching Speed: 10 mS. Switch Type: Failsafe, Absorptive.



www.ebay.com





Tape a single wire to the existing coax for the +12V and use the coax shield for the ground. It wouldn't look like another cable. You'd still need a 12V source.


----------



## Steve Weinrich

Calaveras said:


> You might be able to do this without the wife seeing another cable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JFW 75S-111 12V 75Ohm Coax 1P2T RF Electro-Mechanical DC-2150 MHz Signal Switch | eBay
> 
> 
> JFW Model #: 75S-111. Frequency Stop: 2150 MHz. Frequency Start: 0 Mhz (DC). RF Input Power: +20 dBm. Switching Speed: 10 mS. Switch Type: Failsafe, Absorptive.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tape a single wire to the existing coax for the +12V and use the coax shield for the ground. It wouldn't look like another cable. You'd still need a 12V source.


That is outstanding. I definitely could integrate that with a wireless receiver and power supply. Its an indoor situation.
Thanks much. I tried to search for something like this on Ebay, but it only came up with the cheap slide type A/B switch.

Steve


----------



## statmanmi

Steve Weinrich said:


> Question about antenna switching:
> ...
> I have 2 antenna coax's coming into my basement, and I want to be upstairs and sitting on my couch, select the better antenna for a given channel to drive my house coax.
> 
> Any ideas? Thanks.


Hi Steve,

Any chance that one of the antennas is providing you only VHF signals? Reason being is that if so, an idea I've been contemplating occasionally in my mind might work for you too. My thoughts are that I'd acquire from the famous online auction site one of these old "Cable VHF to UHF Block Converters", as shown here (or similar, from no particular manufacturer):





__





1732






theoldcatvequipmentmuseum.org





(As well as some splitters/combiners/traps as needed.)

Thus, with a separate coax run and antenna pointing at 142 degrees to pull in RF10 from WILX Lansing, MI I'd have a semi-dedicated source for that signal. All while my existing RCA Yagi continues to provide me RF7, RF8, RF9, RF11, and RF13 from other points on the compass when I have it optimized/compromised close to either true north or true south. (For reference, my rabbitears.info chart is: RabbitEars.Info and livebandscan is: RabbitEars Mobile .)

That way, my existing aerial for the other High VHFs can remain pointed as needed, and the to-be-acquired "dedicated RF10" antenna would go into the block converter and output that original RF10 signal as RF59. Seems like with the right combinations of splitters/combiners/traps, I'll get all my desired signals into the main coax before the multi-way splitter that feeds the rest of the outlets in the house.

I know I'd avoid feeding my HDHomeRun for the Live Bandscan the upconverted output from the block converter, nor my TabloTV DVR, as their use would never have guide data. But it'd provide my TVs with a second NBC affiliate, for the instances when my primary NBC preempts. (Lately WOOD TV RF7 8.1 has been running "classic" college football games on Saturday nights--either Michigan or Michigan State--rather than the NBC network game shows.)


Anybody else happen to ever monkey around trying one of these old block converters with OTA? The fact that they upconvert RF2 to RF36 and so on is almost perfect for the post-repack North American TV airwaves...and I don't have an RF36 that I'm interested in receiving. I'm perceiving that they just pass through signals while upconverting, with no decoding. So the tuners obtaining the ultimate house coax fed signals theoretically should be fine with some stations coming in as the higher RFs (right?).

Just a thought! 
Cheers ~~ Statmanmi


----------



## Steve Weinrich

statmanmi said:


> Hi Steve,
> 
> Any chance that one of the antennas is providing you only VHF signals? Reason being is that if so, an idea I've been contemplating occasionally in my mind might work for you too. My thoughts are that I'd acquire from the famous online auction site one of these old "Cable VHF to UHF Block Converters", as shown here (or similar, from no particular manufacturer):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1732
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theoldcatvequipmentmuseum.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (As well as some splitters/combiners/traps as needed.)
> 
> Thus, with a separate coax run and antenna pointing at 142 degrees to pull in RF10 from WILX Lansing, MI I'd have a semi-dedicated source for that signal. All while my existing RCA Yagi continues to provide me RF7, RF8, RF9, RF11, and RF13 from other points on the compass when I have it optimized/compromised close to either true north or true south. (For reference, my rabbitears.info chart is: RabbitEars.Info and livebandscan is: RabbitEars Mobile .)
> 
> That way, my existing aerial for the other High VHFs can remain pointed as needed, and the to-be-acquired "dedicated RF10" antenna would go into the block converter and output that original RF10 signal as RF59. Seems like with the right combinations of splitters/combiners/traps, I'll get all my desired signals into the main coax before the multi-way splitter that feeds the rest of the outlets in the house.
> 
> I know I'd avoid feeding my HDHomeRun for the Live Bandscan the upconverted output from the block converter, nor my TabloTV DVR, as their use would never have guide data. But it'd provide my TVs with a second NBC affiliate, for the instances when my primary NBC preempts. (Lately WOOD TV RF7 8.1 has been running "classic" college football games on Saturday nights--either Michigan or Michigan State--rather than the NBC network game shows.)
> 
> 
> Anybody else happen to ever monkey around trying one of these old block converters with OTA? The fact that they upconvert RF2 to RF36 and so on is almost perfect for the post-repack North American TV airwaves...and I don't have an RF36 that I'm interested in receiving. I'm perceiving that they just pass through signals while upconverting, with no decoding. So the tuners obtaining the ultimate house coax fed signals theoretically should be fine with some stations coming in as the higher RFs (right?).
> 
> Just a thought!
> Cheers ~~ Statmanmi


Hi Statmanmi, thanks for your lengthy reply.
I am going to embarass myself by describing my 2 antennas: The first one is an outside cheapie that I bought on
Ebay for $30. Yes, it was junk, but I bought it before the Boston repack, and it worked great for UHF. Then when the repack here ocurred, our local PBS station HD went to VHF low (59Mhz). My outside cheapie no longer received
virtual channel 2 because it became VHF low.
To resolve this cheaply, I bought a $16 Leadzem antenna (again from Ebay), which had some VHF low reception in its specs. As
a scientific experiment, I added some surplus aluminum tubing on its VHF elements, and to my pleasant surprise , it worked well post-repack (sept 2109) up to this summer., up in my attic. Then my PBS station came in poorly, as did my CBS station on channel 4 Boston. Virtual channel 15 here (NBC) started coming in and out. So I then tried manually alternating antennas, based on the channel I was currently watching.
To do it right, I decided not to keep going up and down my stairs to swap antennas, but to do it with a small RF transmitter doing remote control. Ebay sells them, and I plan to use the device that a previous user suggested to switch antennas thru this rf controlled switcher. So, here I am discussing my crap antennas with you good folks who are definitely doing it right. I might go to a good outside antenna at some point--if my junk doesnt keep working. 
Sorry for the long paragraph!
Steve


----------



## statmanmi

Hi Steve,

No worries on your reply--it's my entertainment here on Friday evening. I enjoy the challenge of TV reception, but actually don't watch it all that much ;-)

I've checked your other posts, and I'm not spotting a RabbitEars.info results link, which would be useful for me and others to quickly understand what signals are available to you. I do see your mention that you're near the NH (New Hampshire) border, so you've piqued my curiosity as both an OTA geek and geography nut. So I picked a city along the northern Massachusetts border and started comparing it to your post moments ago. I think I'm understanding that:


Your only Low-VHF signal of interest is WGBH PBS 2-1, which comes in on the modified Leadzem.
My hunch is that you only receive one or two High-VHF signals, with those being WMUR ABC 9-1 RF9, and WENH PBS 11-1 RF11. Are either of these of interest to you, and if so, which antenna receives them best.
All your other desired stations are UHF now after the repack, and come in okay on the outside cheapie.

How am I doing on catching on? If I'm doing okay, I'm next going to ask if you've happened to hear of either a "UHF/VHF Signal Joiner"--UVSJ for short, or "Hi/Low Signal Joiner"--HVSJ. Honestly, you likely only need one of these at the point in your basement where the coax cables converge--and after the likely power inserter for the outside cheapie (as I'm guessing it has a built-in amp). Both UVSJs and HVSJs are passive devices, and don't require switching, since they combine into one coax the different frequencies coming from each input.

Understanding your prefered antenna for the High VHF stations will determine which you need to purchase, likely from on that famous auction site. My further guess on this is that WMUR ABC and WENH PBS either don't reach you at all, or come in better from the Leadzem. If that's the case, you need a UVSJ, since all your VHF signals are from the Leadzem (both Low and High), and the outdoor cheapie is for UHF only.

Alternatively, if you've found that WMUR ABC (and perhaps WENH PBS) come in better from the outdoor cheapie, then you need a HLSJ, as the "Lo" input would be where you connect the Leadzem coax, and the outdoor cheapie would come in through the "Hi" port (as "Hi" on these combiners covers both High-VHF and all of UHF).

Okay? Please post back with further questions, and about the High-VHF and other speculations I've made.

Cheers! ~~ Statmanmi


----------



## nathill

Steve Weinrich said:


> ...........To do it right, I decided not to keep going up and down my stairs to swap antennas, but to do it with a small RF transmitter doing remote control. Ebay sells them, and I plan to use the device that a previous user suggested to switch antennas thru this rf controlled switcher!..........
> Steve


Where did you see anybody describe a small RF transmitter available on Ebay?
I'm totally lost.


----------



## Steve Weinrich

nathill said:


> Where did you see anybody describe a small RF transmitter available on Ebay?
> I'm totally lost.


I am not sure if this is what I ordered in the past, but this is what I would want to get now:Sorry for long link

2 Transmitter+ 12V 4CH Channel Relay RF Wireless Remote Control Switch Receiver 
2 Transmitter+ 12V 4CH Channel Relay RF Wireless Remote Control Switch Receiver | eBay


----------



## nathill

As crazy as it may sound, the transmitter/relay you found would be amazing for my model railroad!
THANKS!


----------



## Steve Weinrich

statmanmi said:


> Hi Steve,
> 
> No worries on your reply--it's my entertainment here on Friday evening. I enjoy the challenge of TV reception, but actually don't watch it all that much ;-)
> 
> I've checked your other posts, and I'm not spotting a RabbitEars.info results link, which would be useful for me and others to quickly understand what signals are available to you. I do see your mention that you're near the NH (New Hampshire) border, so you've piqued my curiosity as both an OTA geek and geography nut. So I picked a city along the northern Massachusetts border and started comparing it to your post moments ago. I think I'm understanding that:
> 
> 
> Your only Low-VHF signal of interest is WGBH PBS 2-1, which comes in on the modified Leadzem.
> My hunch is that you only receive one or two High-VHF signals, with those being WMUR ABC 9-1 RF9, and WENH PBS 11-1 RF11. Are either of these of interest to you, and if so, which antenna receives them best.
> All your other desired stations are UHF now after the repack, and come in okay on the outside cheapie.
> 
> How am I doing on catching on? If I'm doing okay, I'm next going to ask if you've happened to hear of either a "UHF/VHF Signal Joiner"--UVSJ for short, or "Hi/Low Signal Joiner"--HVSJ. Honestly, you likely only need one of these at the point in your basement where the coax cables converge--and after the likely power inserter for the outside cheapie (as I'm guessing it has a built-in amp). Both UVSJs and HVSJs are passive devices, and don't require switching, since they combine into one coax the different frequencies coming from each input.
> 
> Understanding your prefered antenna for the High VHF stations will determine which you need to purchase, likely from on that famous auction site. My further guess on this is that WMUR ABC and WENH PBS either don't reach you at all, or come in better from the Leadzem. If that's the case, you need a UVSJ, since all your VHF signals are from the Leadzem (both Low and High), and the outdoor cheapie is for UHF only.
> 
> Alternatively, if you've found that WMUR ABC (and perhaps WENH PBS) come in better from the outdoor cheapie, then you need a HLSJ, as the "Lo" input wouchannel 2) ld be where you connect the Leadzem coax, and the outdoor cheapie would come in through the "Hi" port (as "Hi" on these combiners covers both High-VHF and all of UHF).
> 
> Okay? Please post back with further questions, and about the High-VHF and other speculations I've made.
> 
> Cheers! ~~ Statmanmi


That was a great post. You have nailed down some of my issues. The hacked Leadzem antenna which points to Boston does give me WMUR off its back side--because there was never any directionality for VHF low. This thing worked fine until this fall-- WGBH (virtual channel 2, 59Mhz) stopped coming in reliably--but they finally increased their transmit power, and now it comes in OK for both my antennas. However, NBC (virtual 15) is intermittent on my attic antenna now, so the outside UHF cheapie antenna is now better for this station.
The combiner approach is certainly interesting--but I think there would be more DB losses than the raw a/b switching approach. But like Star Trek, I am on a journey, and will explore all options. The Avant X also sounds great, but wont
let me switch antennas randomly--like when the weather changes on a given day.
Steve


----------



## Prototype3a

New bad idea. 

Hack my Stellar Labs 30-2476 into a ch33 yagi. I think I have enough pieces/parts to make a ~20 element. 

Major benefit to this bad idea is that it wouldn't be sitting in our storage room annoying the wife.


----------



## Neil L

Go for it! It's easier to reduce the element size for a higher frequency than go the other way. A few years ago, I recycled an old FM yagi for use on Ch 8... worked very well.


----------



## Steve Weinrich

rabbit73 said:


> Wireless antenna switches are rare if you do a Google search:
> Bluetooth
> Wireless antenna switch
> out of stock
> WiFi Wireless Ham Antenna Switch 4 with Status by Snaptekk on Tindie
> 
> If you search on Amazon for *wireless antenna switch*, you get a more diverse selection that includes wireless light switches and wireless remote control.
> 
> Another possibility is X10 Home Automation switching which uses control over the AC power line.
> 
> If there is no DC on the coax between the basement and your TV location for a preamp, you could use this to switch a relay:
> 
> View attachment 3053629
> 
> 
> The relay could be continuous duty or latching. Inexpensive TV power inserters can be used for the bias-Ts.
> [/QUOTE
> Thanks for this suggestion. Its interesting, but a little more complicated than doing the control wirelessly
> Steve


----------



## Prototype3a

Anyone know if I have the active bit oriented correctly?


----------



## Prototype3a

Well, I rearranged the parts to match the photo I posted previously and as far as I can tell, nothing changed.









The Official AVS Antenna and Related Hardware Topic!


Just moved in my retirement home to a new apartment with a balcony facing Roanoke (50 miles) and Bedford (20 miles) Within 3/4 degree of each other. and 88 degrees to balcony. Rabbit ears gets everything but PBS ch 3 Hello, bernieoc; thanks for the update about your new apartment. I made a 1/2...




www.avsforum.com


----------



## Calaveras

Prototype3a said:


> Anyone know if I have the active bit oriented correctly?
> 
> View attachment 3054276


I don't know what you mean by "the active bit" but the small single element should be in front of the driven element, not behind it.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> Anyone know if I have the active bit oriented correctly?
> 
> View attachment 3054276


Solid Signal shows it like this:










similar antenna from Newark:


----------



## Prototype3a

Hrmm. Mine is MUCH closer to the first director than that first photo shows. The plastic bits actually touch on mine.


----------



## Javelin

It look like you mounted it backwards?


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> Hrmm. Mine is MUCH closer to the first director than that first photo shows. The plastic bits actually touch on mine.


The driven element is turned around backwards on your antenna.










What is the model number of your antenna? Where did you buy it?










video


----------



## Prototype3a

Mine is the Stellar Labs version from Newark.

I wish I knew someone who had the SolidSignal version to compare mine to. It seems very odd that they have the "driven elements" positioned differently.

I may go up on the roof again later and try to get another photo now that I have it "right side up".

Edit:


----------



## johnny antenna

Prototype3a said:


> Anyone know if I have the active bit oriented correctly?
> 
> View attachment 3054276


Your entire antenna is upside down compared to the instructions. You would have put the driven element on the other side and flip the entire antenna to match the instructions. Not sure if it matters though.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> Mine is the Stellar Labs version from Newark.


The smaller (43 element) 30-2365 shows it like this:


----------



## Prototype3a

Removed my "small" Stellar Labs VHF antenna from the system as the 30-2365 was getting more signal on VHF...

Coax seems to be fine. Balun box had a tiny little spider in it. My current theory is that water was getting inside the balun box but I can't really prove anything. All I really know is that it was performing poorly and I cant seem to get WSET 13 (rf7) no matter what I do though I haven't tried the 7ft VHF... yet...


----------



## Prototype3a

*2020 SDR Guide - Episode 5 : Software Primer*


----------



## nathill

Can't thank you enough for posting this. VERY good information. Thanks!


----------



## johnny antenna

rabbit73 said:


> The smaller (43 element) 30-2365 shows it like this:
> 
> View attachment 3054580


The 30-2365 is a bit different than the 30-2370. The 30-2365 has an extra 5" director on top of the boom and the element spacing is different. The 30-2365 is a good antenna for just $15.


----------



## Prototype3a

The 30-2365 is a nice "little" Yagi. I have two of them though I only have one up on the mast right now.

I wonder if Stellar Labs changed the baluns they use at some point and didn't also update the construction of the antenna. When I had the balun open, I noticed that there was a spot for a second hex head M4 screw and thought that would be a nice improvement since I've had the locating tabs break off off another with the single screw attachment. However, it occurred to me that maybe the hole in the boom was located for that old hole and not the driven element hole. (hopefully this makes sense)

I'd love for someone else to measure the distance between the last director, driven element and a location on the reflector for comparison on a "proper" 30-2370 or the Solid Signal HDB91X.


----------



## Prototype3a

*2020 SDR Guide Ep 3 : Beginner Budget SDR Shootout (Generic vs Nooelec vs RTL-SDR v3) cheap SDRs!*


----------



## Prototype3a

Well, my NeSDR showed up today and I've played with SDRTrunk and SDR# but I can't seem to get RTLSDRscanner to recognize the device at all.


----------



## Prototype3a

I don't know if anyone has posted about this... but so far, I really like it.









Releases · pavels/spektrum


rtl-sdr spectrum analyzer. Contribute to pavels/spektrum development by creating an account on GitHub.




github.com














This is scanning my "scanner" antenna to get an idea of the "raw" signal at my location.


----------



## Prototype3a

Can't wait to see if I can improve that WUNL signal by adjusting the aim of the big yagi tomorrow.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> I don't know if anyone has posted about this... but so far, I really like it.












Thanks for the image. Yes, forum member *tustinfarm *told me about it and I posted my test here:

The Official AVS Antenna and Related Hardware Topic!

It does work and make it possible to show more than one channel in a scan, but there are a few things I'm not crazy about. The lettering is very small on my 15" laptop, so it's hard for my old eyes to read. There is a notch in the trace every 2 MHz, and the pilot carrier of a channel doesn't show.

Also, you have to set the gain correctly so that a weak signal will show above the noise floor. Increase the gain until the noise floor starts to rise and the weak signal stops increasing.


----------



## Prototype3a

Figures. LOL 

I was looking for the following post yesterday and I couldn't seem to find it.








The Official AVS Antenna and Related Hardware Topic!


I went for the 24dB Kitztech LNA as that is what I installed at my mom's place a few years back but she also has probably 150ft of coax between her tv and her antenna AND she lives in the middle of nowhere. I probably should have purchased an airspy or some other tool first since, now that I...




www.avsforum.com





Of course, Spektrum is mentioned in the following post.

I agree that I wish the UI had a scaling option as it is pretty small and hard to read. I'd also love to have an option to increase the width of the yellow trace as it was hard to see on my laptop even with the brightness at max.

I really need to put up a second mast so I can mess with stuff without affecting the "working" system.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> Well, my NeSDR showed up today and I've played with SDRTrunk and SDR# but I can't seem to get RTLSDRscanner to recognize the device at all.


Which NESDR did you buy? I see two pages of them.

https://www.nooelec.com/store/sdr/sdr-receivers/nesdr.html?p=1


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> I agree that I wish the UI had a scaling option as it is pretty small and hard to read. I'd also love to have an option to increase the width of the yellow trace as it was hard to see on my laptop even with the brightness at max.


There is another free software that can be used with the RTL-SDR.COM V3 dongle to show more than one channel:
Touchstone — RF Spectrum Analyzer Software

The resolution isn't too good and there is no way to adjust the gain of the dongle. It is necessary to insert an attenuator before the dongle to obtain the correct representation of SNR. 

But, the Touchstone software does cover more than one channel and you can see changes in real time. With the RTLSDR Scanner, you don't see the scan until it is completed. 



















The amount of attenuation must be found by trial-and-error. It helps if you have a TV that will tell you the SNR of a known signal. 










The Toner attenuator shown above could be used. 










My amateur Videos 

I didn't use a preamp for this scan. The channel 16 signal (first strong signal on the left) measured -6.3 dBmV (-55.1 dBm) with my Sadelco DisplayMax 800 signal level meter: 

Touchstone RF Spectrum Analyzer 2020-10-27 14-45-43.mp4

https://www.dropbox.com/s/no068tnzs...pectrum Analyzer 2020-10-27 14-45-43.mp4?dl=1

When I used a 17 dB preamp (CM7777HD Amplify, low gain setting), more attenuation before the dongle was needed. 

Touchstone RF Spectrum Analyzer 2020-10-27 14-27-48.mp4

https://www.dropbox.com/s/18g3b36dm...pectrum Analyzer 2020-10-27 14-27-48.mp4?dl=1


----------



## Prototype3a

We went snooping around the front yard with the BIG VHF and the SDR on my laptop. I can probably get WSET with the big VHF but WSWP on RF8 is unobtainium. I could "see" it on the SDR but it was "noisy" and very weak SNR. Maybe 6-8dB?

So, I'm going to try putting the BIG VHF up on the mast with one of the small UHF yagis below it, both pointed towards Roanoke/Lynchburg tomorrow and see what happens.

That attenuator is interesting. I want to point the BIG UHF at WUNL with my KT200 amp and see what that looks like on the SDR. I'm pretty sure the KT200 will be far too much gain and just amp up the noise floor.

Does anyone know how much of a problem, strong neighbor channels are? WSLS (34) is sooo much stronger here than WUNL (33).


----------



## Prototype3a

... and Touchstone can't detect my SDR...

... and there doesn't appear to be any way to manually point it to my device.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> Does anyone know how much of a problem, strong neighbor channels are? WSLS (34) is sooo much stronger here than WUNL (33).


Good question. WSLS must not be any more than 33 dB stronger than WUNL.

ATSC Recommended Practice:
Receiver Performance Guidelines

Document A/74:2010, 7 April 2010

RECEIVER PERFORMANCE GUIDELINES

5.4.2 Adjacent Channel Rejection

The receiver should meet or exceed the thresholds given in Table 5.2 for rejection of first
adjacent-channel interference at the desired signal levels shown above the columns therein.



















As listed on your report, WSLS is about 76 dB stronger than WUNL. But, WSLS is a lot weaker when your antenna is aimed at WUNL. UHF antennas with a corner reflector have good rejection of signals from the rear; you almost have enough.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> ... and Touchstone can't detect my SDR...
> 
> ... and there doesn't appear to be any way to manually point it to my device.


Sounds like a driver problem

*Exactly what model SDR are you using? There is more than one model:
https://www.nooelec.com/store/sdr/sdr-receivers/nesdr.html*

Is that the only SDR you have?

I have the RTL-SDR.COM V3 SDR. It works with the RTLSDR Scanner, SDR#, and Touchstone.
Buy RTL-SDR Dongles (RTL2832U)

I think it's the best of the inexpensive SDRs.


----------



## Prototype3a

I got the basic black one because of the photo of the pair plugged into a RPi. I may have a similar setup in the future for P25 trunked radio scanning.


https://www.nooelec.com/store/sdr/sdr-receivers/nesdr/nesdr-smart-sdr.html



I _think_ my problem with RTLSDRscanner is that it can't detect the SDR either. It is frustrating that SDR# and Spektrum detect it just fine.

That overhead gain plot has me wishing that I had a second of the big UHF yagis to stack vertically to potentially reject more signal from WSLS. I do have a pair of the smaller UHF yagis that I _could_ stack but I doubt that would be an improvement.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> Well, my NeSDR showed up today and I've played with SDRTrunk and SDR# but I can't seem to get RTLSDRscanner to recognize the device at all.


*Tips for Setting Up an RTL-SDR Dongle as a Spectrum Analyzer*
OTA Signal Analyzers, Meters, Aimers, Bench Gear...

If there is nothing wrong with the driver or the dongle, then maybe something is missing from the folder. This is my folder:










or maybe a Visual C++ is missing from your computer software; see control panel:


----------



## Prototype3a

I wonder if my problems are related to my SDR identifying itself as a 2838 instead of a 2832. I honestly don't know what the difference would be but it does seem to be a different "USB ID"


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> I wonder if my problems are related to my SDR identifying itself as a 2838 instead of a 2832. I honestly don't know what the difference would be but it does seem to be a different "USB ID"


Try a redo of the Zadig driver:
Quick Start Guide
*Select* "*Bulk-In, Interface (Interface 0)*"

Do you have another dongle, like the RTL-SDR.COM V3?

Do you have another computer?


----------



## Prototype3a

SDR data win!

My plan worked and with the big VHF and the small UHF yagis, I got WSET ch13 back!


----------



## Prototype3a

I e-mailed the devs for Touchstone and while they responded quickly and were friendly, they have no idea why their software doesn't work with my NeSDR. They basically suggested "Turn it off and back on again" as the solution. Shame.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> I wonder if my problems are related to my SDR identifying itself as a 2838 instead of a 2832. I honestly don't know what the difference would be but it does seem to be a different "USB ID"


I owe you an apology. After looking at the Installation Guide for your Nooelec NESDR SMArt v4 SDR - Premium RTL-SDR w/ Aluminum Enclosure, I see that the Zadig driver is different than for my RTL-SDR.COM V3 SDR.
https://www.nooelec.com/store/qs


----------



## Prototype3a

No worries. I don't know enough about software or drivers or how any of this REALLY works to know if I'm doing it right, wrong or if I just need to use my engineers' hammer.

I generally like to think I'm not completely stupid but I may have once had problems updating firmware on a device because I mis-understood the software and I was actually reading the firmware FROM the device instead of writing to the device. 

I may pick up a RTLSDR kit to play with as I wouldn't mind having the dipole antennas though I'm trying to hold off. I'm sort of hopeful that the Airspy R2 will go on sale for BlackFriday.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> I don't know enough about software or drivers or how any of this REALLY works to know if I'm doing it right.....I generally like to think I'm not completely stupid but I may have once had problems updating firmware on a device.......


I know the feeling well. I got the RTL-SDR.COM V3 dongle working with SDR#, but I had a lot of trouble getting it to work with the free open-source RTLSDR Scanner DIY software from GitHub. I tried twice, and couldn't get it to work. I was about ready to give up, but finally got it to work on the third try with some help from Pete Higgin's tutorial.

I did a Google search of driver problems with the Nooelec NESDR; many users have had problems. I redid the Zadig setup for my RTL-SDR V3 dongle. This is what I got after I connected it to the USB port on my Windows 10 laptop:

Device Manger

Zadig


----------



## Prototype3a

Tried a bunch of stuff and the only thing I found that made a difference was that if I plugged it into a USB3.2 (red) port, NOTHING worked. 

I deleted the drivers and finagled it such that only one "Bulk in" item showed in the device manager and that didn't help with Touchstone either.

so... /shrug


----------



## Steve Weinrich

Wireless A/B Switch update: Thanks to suggestions I received, I have completed this project, and I wanted to tell folks that I was pleased to discover that the wireless receiver has a latching relay--thereby making a "hold" on the wireless transmitter button select press. This makes the logic easy. To clear , just push the same button again.
Also, the wireless link works through my living room floor to the basement (where the receiver is).
If anyone wants a further info, let me know here.

Finally, this allows me to choose between 2 antennas from my living room. For a home without multiple TV's going, a single antenna selection allows me to click to get the best antenna for a given channel. To me, this is better than trying to combine 2 antennas, and makes me think that for me, separate VHF and UHF antennas is my way to go in the future.


----------



## rabbit73

Steve Weinrich said:


> Wireless A/B Switch update: Thanks to suggestions I received, I have completed this project, and I wanted to tell folks that I was pleased to discover that the wireless receiver has a latching relay--thereby making a "hold" on the wireless transmitter button select press.


Excellent!

Thanks for the update, Steve.


----------



## johnny antenna

30-2475 and 30-2476 HI-VHF antennas are back in stock at Newark.


----------



## MaxxCatt

Since this thread seems to be a little dead right now I thought I'd post a small yagi I made to get rid of night time fade-out out of a low power station, it works really well.
I made it for 503 mhz but it even gets VHF channel 12 that's about 30 miles away.
These pics are before I finished it and added the push washers on the elements.

ETA: I made this to tide me over while I build a 4 bay bowtie.


----------



## Prototype3a

Airspy is having a 30% off sale for black friday !!  I think when I last looked at them, shipping was ~$15. So, premium SDR for ~$140 to your door?





__





Airspy Black Friday Deals Now Active


Airspy have released their black Friday 2020 deals today with 30% off. Back in 2019 we saw that the black friday deals were the best time to purchase an Airspy and we don't expect pricing to get cheaper than this. Links to their distributors can be found on airspy.com. Airspy sell a range of...



www.rtl-sdr.com










Airspy R2 SDR – Airspy.US







v3.airspy.us


----------



## Prototype3a

MaxxCatt said:


> Since this thread seems to be a little dead right now I thought I'd post a small yagi I made to get rid of night time fade-out out of a low power station, it works really well.
> I made it for 503 mhz but it even gets VHF channel 12 that's about 30 miles away.
> These pics are before I finished it and added the push washers on the elements.
> 
> ETA: I made this to tide me over while I build a 4 bay bowtie.


I'd love to know more about these "push washers" and your construction methods...


----------



## MaxxCatt

Prototype3a said:


> I'd love to know more about these "push washers" and your construction methods...


I had a mental block when I posted that. They are called Starlock washers and they have little 'fingers' that keep them from backing out, I put one one each side of the boom.
First I drilled a hole on one end of the boom which I had a strip of wood (slightly smaller than the outside diameter of the boom) under it. Then I drove piece of round rod through the hole into the wood then did the same on the other end to keep the boom from rotating.
Then I drilled the element holes and the hole for the driven element mount, all was done on my vertical mill with a DRO.
I formed the driven element on a jig I made and used the mill to make the mount out of some pvc I got at a box store (HD).
The elements are 8 ga. copper and were carefully measured several times to make sure they were right. I have an older Jet belt/disk sander I used to get the length right.


----------



## Prototype3a

Thanks! I knew about "starlock washers" but I didn't know what they were called. 









McMaster-Carr


McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.




www.mcmaster.com





Using a vertical mill with DRO is cheating! =P I suspected you had a mill since I saw a R8 drill chuck in your photo.


----------



## MaxxCatt

Here's a couple of pics of a quick and dirty jig I made for forming the eyelets in bowtie whiskers.
I'd have made a better jig if I was making a bunch of them.
That stiff wire is hard to form with pliers.


----------



## Prototype3a

Have you tried Knipex Wrench-Pliers? They're expensive but they are also awesome.










Those are just the little 150mm version and some 12awg copper that I squashed with them to show how much force can be applied fairly easily.


----------



## MaxxCatt

The thing I don't like about using pliers to form the eyelets is even while forming around a post it's hard to get both sides to pull in even close to the same amount and you end up with the eye being offset to one side or the other.
Maybe I'm just picky?


----------



## Prototype3a

Got my Airspy R2 today and I'm betting noise from WSLS(34) is causing lock/SNR issues for WUNL (33)

I really want to try to get WUNL again but I really need a second mast on the house...


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> Got my Airspy R2 today and I'm betting noise from WSLS(34) is causing lock/SNR issues for WUNL (33)


Congratulations!

What do 33 and 34 look like on your R2 with Spectrum Spy?

Your report:










Yes, WUNL on 33 probably has adjacent channel interference from WSLS on 34.

This is what my UHF looks like with my R2 and Spectrum Spy software:












> I really want to try to get WUNL again but I really need a second mast on the house...


How will the second mast help?


----------



## Prototype3a

I have the big ~7ft VHF on top of my mast right now so I don't really have room for a UHF yagi to point at a ~90degree offset without interfering with VHF's capture area.

This was from last night when I had the R2 connected to the UHF/VHF combo pointed at Roanoke. I think one of the spikes in the "trough" between signals is the pilot for WUNL but you can also see how WSLS has a huge "noise shoulder" on the left. I saw this phenomenon on the cheap SDR in Spektrum but I didn't know if it was actually there or some sort of artifact.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> This was from last night when I had the R2 connected to the UHF/VHF combo pointed at Roanoke.....but you can also see how WSLS has a huge "noise shoulder" on the left.
> 
> View attachment 3061759


Thank you for the interesting image. I have seen this before when the gain was set too high on the RTL-SDR.COM V3 dongle:










I tried to download the latest version of SDR# (v1784) for Spectrum Spy to see if I could duplicate your problem, but my Norton security deleted part of it before I could even ignore the warning.



















So, I used my v1732 for a test:










Videos:

to view
2020-11-29 18-51-22shoulders.mp4

to download and view
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pdi3kwsend7l0f8/2020-11-29 18-51-22shoulders.mp4?dl=1


----------



## Prototype3a

FWIW, I had to download SDRsharp on my laptop and I think they may have changed the UI on the latest version. I sort of hate the new UI...


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> FWIW, I had to download SDRsharp on my laptop and I think they may have changed the UI on the latest version. I sort of hate the new UI...


Changed the UI on SDRsharp or the UI on Spectrum Spy? What don't you like about the UI?


----------



## Prototype3a

Seems versions newer than 1.0.0.1777 have this really obnoxious scrolling vertical tab interface on the left side for all the plugins where older versions had a ... list? I did notice that they have a link on their site for "old UI" download. I have no idea why anyone would think the new UI is better. It is absolutely AWFUL to use and it is even worse if you have the version with ~50 plugins.


----------



## tylerSC

FM TRAP: Glad to see Channel Master now has an external FM filter available on its website. Nice functional design similar to their LTE filter, can connect easily to an antenna system before the preamp or where needed. It has recently been difficult to find an external FM trap since Radioshack shut down. Although the Radioshack website now has now been relaunced under new owners, but their selection of TV antennas and accessories is currently very limited.


----------



## Prototype3a

Is there a reason to trap FM?

I actually added a splitter near our tv recently and connected the AVR to the tv antenna for FM.


----------



## rabbit73

tylerSC said:


> FM TRAP: Glad to see Channel Master now has an external FM filter available on its website.


Thanks for the report; looks good.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> Is there a reason to trap FM?
> 
> I actually added a splitter near our tv recently and connected the AVR to the tv antenna for FM.


Yes, strong local FM transmitters can cause interference to the reception of VHF-High channels either by fundamental overload or the second harmonic of the FM transmitter. Some users even have to put two FM filters in series for enough attenuation.

This is the strongest US FM report I have seen:










This is the strongest Canadian FM report that I have seen:










This is your FM report:

http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/9c71695347/Radar-FM.png


----------



## tylerSC

Prototype3a said:


> Is there a reason to trap FM?
> 
> I actually added a splitter near our tv recently and connected the AVR to the tv antenna for FM.


If your antenna receives FM signals and you use an amplifier, those strong signals may cause overload issues or interference from the FM harmonics. I have used an FM trap to block interference and pixelation with High VHF channels. Sometimes an external FM filter may work better than an FM trap built into a preamp.


----------



## tylerSC

Televes Preamp: Televes now has 2 new preamps with their proprietary automatic gain control which may be very beneficial for preventing overload issues and harmonic distortion. It also has a built in 5G LTE filter and coaxial connections with an F connector. There are single and dual input versions. Seems designed very well to stabilize and balance problematic signals, similar to their built in T-Force amp in their antennas.


----------



## pvdigital

I found my VHF signals are cleaner when the FM trap is enabled.


----------



## tylerSC

pvdigital said:


> I found my VHF signals are cleaner when the FM trap is enabled.


I use an FM trap to block interference on RF13. Otherwise I have pixelation and dropouts.


----------



## Prototype3a

Well, I'm returning the Nooelec. I DO NOT recommend it. The Airspy R2 has shown me how flaky and broken the NeSDR is.

I'll likely replace it with a RTLSDR kit.


----------



## Ungermann

There is no such thing as an HDTV antenna. Except that there may be. Today I've read an article about 8K trials in South Korea. To achieve 100+ Mbit/s rate within the same 6MHz bandwidth they suggest using two antennas: one with vertical, another with horizontal polarization. This signal is not compatible with the TVs already being sold.

Decided to drop it here instead of starting a new topic


----------



## MaxxCatt

Those are nothing new. Circular and elliptical polarized TV antennas have been in use for years now.
Not just for HDTV.

ETA: I just skimmed the article and I see that it uses 2 feed lines to the TV, so anyone with a circular antenna would just remove the phazing harness and run an extra coax.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> Well, I'm returning the Nooelec. I DO NOT recommend it. The Airspy R2 has shown me how flaky and broken the NeSDR is.
> 
> I'll likely replace it with a RTLSDR kit.


Sorry to hear that it didn't work out for you. I'm wondering if you got a lemon or there is a design flaw.


----------



## MaxxCatt

I have the RTL-SDR v3 and the other night I left it running over night on an FM station and it crashed so I discovered the laptop was froze and had to hard reboot it.


----------



## Prototype3a

rabbit73 said:


> Sorry to hear that it didn't work out for you. I'm wondering if you got a lemon or there is a design flaw.


After e-mailing their "support" a few times, frankly, I don't care what the problem is and I don't think Nooelec cares either. Just glad I didn't buy it directly as Amazon will return my money shortly.


----------



## bugtussle

Have any members had the opportunity to try out the new mast amplifier from Televes? If so how is it working for you? I've ordered one and waiting for shipment. Televes


----------



## Calaveras

MaxxCatt said:


> Those are nothing new. Circular and elliptical polarized TV antennas have been in use for years now.
> Not just for HDTV.
> 
> ETA: I just skimmed the article and I see that it uses 2 feed lines to the TV, so anyone with a circular antenna would just remove the phazing harness and run an extra coax.


The antenna system they describe is not circular polarized. It is cross polarized. There's different data on the horizontal and vertical antennas. This allows you to double the data rate by taking advantage of the 20 dB of isolation between the horizontal and vertical antennas. This isn't new either but I've never heard of it being used for OTA. I had a wireless ISP that used it.


----------



## Primestar31

bugtussle said:


> Have any members had the opportunity to try out the new mast amplifier from Televes? If so how is it working for you? I've ordered one and waiting for shipment. Televes


I've ordered one to replace a Kitztech KT-200-Coax model, but it hasn't been shipped yet, as everybody is out of stock. Hopefully I'll get it before any big snow stops me from being able to install it.


----------



## Prototype3a

rabbit73 said:


> Sorry to hear that it didn't work out for you. I'm wondering if you got a lemon or there is a design flaw.


Received another e-mail from Nooelec this morning full of excuses as to why the device might not work. /eyeroll My experience has been that sometimes things are just tricky to operate and you've got a learning curve to climb and other times the thing is just junk and you should get your money back and run.



MaxxCatt said:


> I have the RTL-SDR v3 and the other night I left it running over night on an FM station and it crashed so I discovered the laptop was froze and had to hard reboot it.


I just want a device that is consistently and reliably recognized by the OS/Software. Windows would "Ba-doop" every time I plugged the NeSDR in but it only ever actually worked maybe 10% of the time and even then I was never able to get it to work with several programs simply because they couldn't "see" it. I had several instances where even SDR# and Spektrum couldn't find it.


----------



## bugtussle

Primestar31 said:


> I've ordered one to replace a Kitztech KT-200-Coax model, but it hasn't been shipped yet, as everybody is out of stock. Hopefully I'll get it before any big snow stops me from being able to install it.


Interesting, I ordered mine to compare to a Kitztech KT-700. I will be looking forward to the results.


----------



## Calaveras

bugtussle said:


> Have any members had the opportunity to try out the new mast amplifier from Televes? If so how is it working for you? I've ordered one and waiting for shipment. Televes





Primestar31 said:


> I've ordered one to replace a Kitztech KT-200-Coax model, but it hasn't been shipped yet, as everybody is out of stock. Hopefully I'll get it before any big snow stops me from being able to install it.


I'll probably draw the wrath of Televes again for publishing this but I had an opportunity to measure the stand alone preamp and the results were not good. The Noise Figure ran from about 6 - 8 dB on VHF and UHF. These are very poor numbers and nowhere the claimed <2 dB. I also measured the built-in preamp in the DAT BOSS antennas and got similar results. Placing the preamp in bypass mode by removing the power resulted in insertion loss of around 5 dB. Leaving that preamp unpowered and using a different preamp doesn't solve the problem. I'm not the only one who performed these measurements and obtained these results.

Honestly, at this point in the game, a $20 Steren high VHF/UHF log periodic antenna with a Kitztech KT-200 preamp is good enough for 90% of OTA viewers. For the remaining 10% who are in difficult situations, an XG91 or an 8-bay antenna for UHF and a Stellar Labs high VHF yagi with a KT-700 dual input preamp is about as good as you can get. Beyond that you're in the area of diminishing returns, cost/antenna size trying for the last 1 or 2 dB.


----------



## bugtussle

Calaveras said:


> I'll probably draw the wrath of Televes again for publishing this but I had an opportunity to measure the stand alone preamp and the results were not good. The Noise Figure ran from about 6 - 8 dB on VHF and UHF. These are very poor numbers and nowhere the claimed <2 dB. I also measured the built-in preamp in the DAT BOSS antennas and got similar results. Placing the preamp in bypass mode by removing the power resulted in insertion loss of around 5 dB. Leaving that preamp unpowered and using a different preamp doesn't solve the problem. I'm not the only one who performed these measurements and obtained these results.
> 
> Honestly, at this point in the game, a $20 Steren high VHF/UHF log periodic antenna with a Kitztech KT-200 preamp is good enough for 90% of OTA viewers. For the remaining 10% who are in difficult situations, an XG91 or an 8-bay antenna for UHF and a Stellar Labs high VHF yagi with a KT-700 dual input preamp is about as good as you can get. Beyond that you're in the area of diminishing returns, cost/antenna size trying for the last 1 or 2 dB.


Thanks, I appreciate the input.


----------



## tylerSC

bugtussle said:


> Have any members had the opportunity to try out the new mast amplifier from Televes? If so how is it working for you? I've ordered one and waiting for shipment. Televes


That is the new preamp from Televes that I had previously referred to. There is a dual input and single input version. The automatic gain control sounds like a promising feature, but the reported high noise figure seems problematic if that is the standard. There is a favorable review from Tyler the Antenna Man on Youtube, and he discusses some positive aspects of the design features but he does not mention the noise figure, which can be a critical concern.


----------



## Calaveras

tylerSC said:


> That is the new preamp from Televes that I had previously referred to. There is a dual input and single input version. The automatic gain control sounds like a promising feature, but the reported high noise figure seems problematic if that is the standard. There is a favorable review from Tyler the Antenna Man on Youtube, and he discusses some positive aspects of the design features but he does not mention the noise figure, which can be a critical concern.


There are pros and cons for having AGC in a preamp. I ran into something peculiar when I was testing the DAT BOSS Mix LR. I have a 600MHz LTE transmitter located on the same mountaintop as my low power stations on channels 28 and 36. The LTE signal is actually stronger than the TV stations. When I pointed the DAT in that direction and looked at channel 28 I saw the amplitude of the signal jumping up and down as the spectrum analyzer swept across the channel. At first I didn't know what was going on. Then I realized the AGC was causing this. The total signal power of the 600MHz LTE signal changes rapidly with the number of users at any given moment. When there were a lot of users, the signal power went up and engaged the AGC, dropping the preamp gain. When there were few users the LTE signal power went down and the AGC disengaged and the gain went to maximum. 

I'm not sure this really hurts anything but it doesn't seem like a good idea either. I'd say a 600MHz LTE filter would solve the problem except that a filter cannot be added between the antenna and the preamp because of the way the two are integrated. If you're going to have an AGC in the preamp you want it to reduce gain because there's a strong DTV signal, not because there's a strong out of band signal.

I watched that Antenna Man video. I like most of what Tyler has to say but I don't think his tests are controlled enough to be really helpful. A high noise figure preamp is better than no preamp in most cases but it doesn't mean that it's a great preamp or that there are none better. As a minimum, I wish he'd run all his antenna tests against some baseline antenna and not against recent antennas tested. The $20 no frills Steren LPDA would be a perfect baseline antenna. As a maximum, he could get a spectrum analyzer and record the strength of all his stations and show a comparison of that plus his TV Signal Quality readings. Maybe he could get Rigol to sponsor him and give him one.


----------



## johnny antenna

Calaveras said:


> ......
> 
> Honestly, at this point in the game, a $20 Steren high VHF/UHF log periodic antenna with a Kitztech KT-200 preamp is good enough for 90% of OTA viewers. For the remaining 10% who are in difficult situations, an XG91 or an 8-bay antenna for UHF and a Stellar Labs high VHF yagi with a KT-700 dual input preamp is about as good as you can get. Beyond that you're in the area of diminishing returns, cost/antenna size trying for the last 1 or 2 dB.


It looks like those Steren LPDA antennas are no longer available. Maybe they were a discontinued item that was sold off at discount. Those LPDAs seem more popular outside the US.


----------



## Casey Hartman

I am subscribed to Tyler, the Antenna Man's YouTube channel. I don't think he has any tools to conduct advanced testing to identify noise and other interferences. I like his reviews and find them useful since many products are compared in the same location. I watched several reviews and entered the results in a spreadsheet to have a broader comparison, although antenna performance in his 1-Edge terrain is different than in my LOS area and my antenna is inside a brick high rise condo.



Calaveras said:


> I watched that Antenna Man video. I like most of what Tyler has to say but I don't think his tests are controlled enough to be really helpful. A high noise figure preamp is better than no preamp in most cases but it doesn't mean that it's a great preamp or that there are none better. As a minimum, I wish he'd run all his antenna tests against some baseline antenna and not against recent antennas tested. The $20 no frills Steren LPDA would be a perfect baseline antenna. As a maximum, he could get a spectrum analyzer and record the strength of all his stations and show a comparison of that plus his TV Signal Quality readings. Maybe he could get Rigol to sponsor him and give him one.


----------



## Calaveras

johnny antenna said:


> It looks like those Steren LPDA antennas are no longer available. Maybe they were a discontinued item that was sold off at discount. Those LPDAs seem more popular outside the US.


Well that figures. You find something inexpensive without the hype surrounding it that actually works and it disappears. You're probably right about the discontinued clearance. It wouldn't be a very hard antenna to build though. It's just square tubing and small diameter rods. I'll have to measure mine and post the dimensions.


----------



## johnny antenna

Calaveras said:


> Well that figures. You find something inexpensive without the hype surrounding it that actually works and it disappears. You're probably right about the discontinued clearance. It wouldn't be a very hard antenna to build though. It's just square tubing and small diameter rods. I'll have to measure mine and post the dimensions.


The Fracarro LP345F is maybe a similar antenna but it's much more expensive. Those Fracarro LPDAs have coax inside the entire length of the top tube.


----------



## Calaveras

johnny antenna said:


> The Fracarro LP345F is maybe a similar antenna but it's much more expensive. Those Fracarro LPDAs have coax inside the entire length of the top tube.


I see availability is spotty. None at Amazon but available on Ebay. But the price! Ouch!! And $58 for shipping?? Are they crazy? 

It looks like the Steren was a copy of the LP345F. Here's an article about baluns on LPDA's:



Baluns on Tennadyne and other LPDA Log Perodic Antennas



The coax is supposed to be run through the boom section on which the shield is connected. (See end of article.) Usually that's the lower boom half.


----------



## jruano

The NF data provided earlier is nowhere near correct for the built in preamps in Televes antennas, or for the recently released T-Force AGC controlled standalone preamps. Neither is the insertion loss value in passive mode mentioned for the antennas.

Accurately measuring the NF of an amplifier is no trivial task. Very expensive and properly calibrated testing equipment and a carefully controlled environment are needed. I would very humbly advise taking any forum published values with the same skepticism as some manufacturers' advertised -and consistently false- ones. In the case of the dipole embedded preamps present in some Televes antenna products there are other important considerations to keep in mind as well, as to measuring at the dipole, or opening the shielded case and soldering after the balun, ensure proper shielding was used after alterations, etc.

All Televes antennas, mast-mounted preamps, and distribution products comply with the EU's RED directive (*Radio Equipment Directive*) which mandates European manufacturers to meet stringent threshold values of the different parameters, including the noise figure. This is not the case for the far East sourced and rebranded competing products in the US market.

As a reference, below are some comparative gain graph charts between the recently released Televes T-Force standalone preamps and the leading commercially available products which are typically brought up in discussions in this forum. Our studies have of course more detail, but these graphs reveal some clear things: subpar filtering, reverse slopes, inconsistent band gain values, etc. It was also found that these vendors try to overcome the potential for overload by providing very high output levels. This is in Televes opinion not the right way to address the issue, since it does not cover all cases and at best just passes the problem along to downstream devices, overloading other actives or tuners in the chain. It also unnecessarily increases power consumption. A likely explanation for this design decision is cost savings. A dual emitter to ground unfiltered amp circuit is a lot cheaper to make than a properly filtered unit with adequate weighted AGC.


----------



## jruano

.


----------



## SBRUSKI

British ATV has updated its cowboy's locker pages. aka, How not to attach and install.
Enjoy. 








Cowboys' Locker (awful aerial installations) - A.T.V. Poles, Brackets, Clamps & Aerials


----------



## Prototype3a

FYI...





__





NanoVNA V2+ Now Available in our Store + Upcoming Enclosure Preview


The original NanoVNA V2+ is now available in our store for a reduced price of US$64.95 with free shipping to most countries. This price will increase in the future. The NanoVNA V2+ is a low cost vector network analyzer which can be used to measure and tune antennas, filters and cables. The model...



www.rtl-sdr.com


----------



## Larry Kenney

SBRUSKI said:


> British ATV has updated its cowboy's locker pages. aka, How not to attach and install.
> Enjoy.
> View attachment 3065066
> 
> Cowboys' Locker (awful aerial installations) - A.T.V. Poles, Brackets, Clamps & Aerials


I have no idea how an installation like this works, but it sure looks impressive!
Larry


----------



## Prototype3a

Does anyone know of another website that generates signal strength heat maps similar to this?



TV Fool



I wanted to look at WUNE but it seems it is on the long list of stations that are not up to date on TVFool.


----------



## Primestar31

Prototype3a said:


> Does anyone know of another website that generates signal strength heat maps similar to this?
> 
> 
> 
> TV Fool
> 
> 
> 
> I wanted to look at WUNE but it seems it is on the long list of stations that are not up to date on TVFool.


This one, completely up to date. Tvfool isn't kept up anymore:RabbitEars.Info


----------



## Prototype3a

derp. I just had to click the "map" buttons. I could have sworn Sir Rabbit Ears had maps but I couldn't find them.


----------



## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> Does anyone know of another website that generates signal strength heat maps similar to this?
> 
> 
> 
> TV Fool
> 
> 
> 
> I wanted to look at WUNE but it seems it is on the long list of stations that are not up to date on TVFool.


As Primestar31 said, it's available in your rabbitears.info report, but you have to set the distance for the report to 110 miles:
RabbitEars.Info










You are way outside the coverage area for WUNE. Its directional antenna favors NC:


----------



## Trip in VA

WUNE is also co-channel with WFXR. So unless you're investigating potential sources of interference to WFXR, the WUNE signal won't do you much good.

- Trip


----------



## rabbit73

Trip in VA said:


> WUNE is also co-channel with WFXR. So unless you're investigating potential sources of interference to WFXR, the WUNE signal won't do you much good.
> 
> - Trip


Good point.

He wants PBS but he doesn't like WBRA.



Prototype3a said:


> I'm pretty motivated to get it (WUNL) since they still air The Woodwright's Shop. They also air Milk Street in HD where WBRA seems to only air Milk Street on their SD channel.





Prototype3a said:


> In other news, I haven't been able to figure out what is interferring with WBRA. Whatever it is, it seems to be on a light switch as sometimes it's on and sometimes it is definitely off. I tried turning off just about everything I could think of in our house and nothing changed so I'm guessing it is a neighbor...


----------



## Prototype3a

Trip in VA said:


> WUNE is also co-channel with WFXR. So unless you're investigating potential sources of interference to WFXR, the WUNE signal won't do you much good.
> 
> - Trip


Nah.. 

I've been looking at moving to TN.


----------



## Trip in VA

Prototype3a said:


> Nah..
> 
> I've been looking at moving to TN.


Ah. The terrain chews up most of the NC channels before they would make it into TN. WLOS (ABC) might work depending on specific location, but I suspect you would receive little else. I did pick a spot once off I-81 where I got W30CS-D (UNC translator) but WCYB has filed to move to channel 30 which would make that impossible. The exact right location might get you WUNW if they get approval for and build out their DTS.

If WETP/WKOP don't fit the bill in that area, you'd probably have to look into an FTA dish and watch PBS on 125W. 

- Trip


----------



## Prototype3a

RE: WBRA. It is what it is. WBRA is local but they refuse to air the programming that I want to watch or they refuse to air it on their HD channel.

I had no idea there was free satellite tv.

Where can I view the schedule for this 125W ?


----------



## Trip in VA

Prototype3a said:


> RE: WBRA. It is what it is. WBRA is local but they refuse to air the programming that I want to watch or they refuse to air it on their HD channel.
> 
> I had no idea there was free satellite tv.
> 
> Where can I view the schedule for this 125W ?


You don't have to explain the issues with WBRA to me, of all people. Bane of my existence when I lived in the Roanoke DMA, and not just because of the signal.

It's the national generic PBS East/PBS West/PBS Kids (HD) and World/Create/FNX (SD) schedules. You will also find Montana PBS in SD.

- Trip


----------



## Prototype3a

PBS in the rest of VA doesn't follow WBRA's schedule. AFAIK, WV PBS follows the same schedule as the rest of VA.

FWIW, I vastly prefer NC PBS but I haven't figured out yet how to actually get that signal here.


----------



## greg9x2

Recommended modifications for original CM 4228 antenna with original CM 7777 amplifier ?

Sorry for the rambling nature of the information, i've been down the rabbit hole looking for improvements for my OTA reception and brain is a bit shot. Since my setup is so old (early 2000's) a lot of the information on forums is broken links and missing pictures.

My reception info if needed:





RabbitEars.Info


RabbitEars, where you can learn all about local, over-the-air TV channels.




www.rabbitears.info






This is an attic installation in a townhouse, so the antennas are 30' up but looking through the corner of the roof with next door neighbor. Trying to avoid going to outside setup for weather, grounding, antenna support issues.

Anyway, per the above, I should not be getting good reception for several channels out of the D.C. market but get quite a few... for reference, WTTG (RF 36) is generally solid year round for UHF and WRC (RF 34) is usually ok during summer, but lose/borderline when the leaves fall off the trees. So trying to find an extra dB or two that may get it back over the line.

Current Mini SA look at those upper channels (at end of ~25' coax to bedroom TV, have splitter inline to feed 2 TV's):










Also have a Radio Shack Y5-7-13 for 2 VHF channels that are also borderline year round that goes into the CM 7777 too. I once had a 'magic' spot it was hung from a coat hanger that had at least 50% better reception...but have never been able to find it again. If any relevant tweaks to it appreciate also.


But, to the CM4228.. is the bowtie tine extension to 9 inches still a valid tweak ? Seeing the repack has my highest channel at 36 now, seems focusing the gain down towards those frequencies would be helpful, but know there are other interactions.

A lot of the tweaks seemed to focus on the CM4228HD, which is a slightly different design. Don't know if any of the harness modifications etc apply to the original CM4228.


Since system is so old, just did a voltage check on the CM power inserter... Old posts indicated it should be 18Vdc under load. I am seeing 16.5Vdc now. But replacement power supplies from CM are 12Vdc and say they are suitable replacement. So not sure how bad 16.5Vdc is going to affect it. Also seeing 125mv AC ripple which concerns me, as at work we say anything over 50mv should get replaced...but again, not sure how critical it is for the CM7777.

The CM7777 was good for it's time, still seems functional. But is there a better setup ?

Things I have done so far over the years:

Have filters on each antenna, a Hi-VHF on the Y5-7-13 (mainly due to an emergency channel that was smoking hot...look towards our fire station less than 1/2 mile away so assume it from there. It is still high, but the filter brought it down 40dB !) Have a LTE filter on the CM4228, but it is an older one that goes up to 800Mhz.

Messed around with making coax baluns. They worked, but not a significant improvement...was swapping back and forth with RCA baluns from Lowe's and a couple others. Without a major change, ended up leaving the RCA one's on last swap.


Thanks for any pointers.. and again, sorry for rambling.


----------



## Calaveras

Short of putting the antennas outside there's probably no one thing you can do to make much improvement. A Kitztech KT-700 (dual input preamp) has a lower noise figure by a dB or so than anything else out there. The coax baluns are good for perhaps a dB over ferrite baluns. A Stellar Labs 30-2476 high VHF yagi is a dB or so better than your Y5-7-13. It's going to be hard to get much improvement over the CM-4228. Resizing the elements might get you a dB on the lower channels. If you did everything the total could be 3 dB or a bit better. Hard to say whether that's enough. Any signals below -80dBm are pretty weak. The general rule of thumb for 100% reception is 10-20 dB noise margin. Some of your stations sound like they're close to 0 dB so getting 10 dB is likely impossible without going outdoors.


----------



## greg9x2

Calaveras said:


> Short of putting the antennas outside there's probably no one thing you can do to make much improvement. A Kitztech KT-700 (dual input preamp) has a lower noise figure by a dB or so than anything else out there. The coax baluns are good for perhaps a dB over ferrite baluns. A Stellar Labs 30-2476 high VHF yagi is a dB or so better than your Y5-7-13. It's going to be hard to get much improvement over the CM-4228. Resizing the elements might get you a dB on the lower channels. If you did everything the total could be 3 dB or a bit better. Hard to say whether that's enough. Any signals below -80dBm are pretty weak. The general rule of thumb for 100% reception is 10-20 dB noise margin. Some of your stations sound like they're close to 0 dB so getting 10 dB is likely impossible without going outdoors.


Interesting on the KT-700 preamp... believe the CM7777 was 2db noise figure ?? Been so long.. but around 7.5db less gain, which I know may or may not be needed, but when look at my spectrum without the CM7777 everything disappears in the noise floor.

The Stellar Labs 30-2476 looks to be about 20" longer which may be an issue with the rafters in attic being able to fit and point well. Other problem up there is have a chimney that goes up the middle of the house, so have to keep everything to one side to prevent aiming through the chimney .

Think my issues on VHF are more about the reflections up there... the signal indicator on TV bounces wildly around by 10 (whatever '10' is ) where the UHF channels fluctuate 1,2 or 3 at a time. Not sure if any modifications to tame the reflections.

Getting SNR (TV measurement) readings of 14-15 on my borderline channel when its going in and out, which seems to correlate with the C+N/N on the spectrum picture (not a highly accurate spectrum analyzer, but ballpark).
My good channel is a SNR of 18-20, TV signal indicator of 60.. so things are 'close', but as said, may not be enough to overcome without moving outside.

Thanks for input !

Really hoping ATSC 3.0 will help things...but roll out is taking so long, think will be a while.


----------



## greg9x2

greg9x2 said:


> Interesting on the KT-700 preamp... believe the CM7777 was 2db noise figure ?? Been so long.. but around 7.5db less gain, which I know may or may not be needed, but when look at my spectrum without the CM7777 everything disappears in the noise floor.
> 
> The Stellar Labs 30-2476 looks to be about 20" longer which may be an issue with the rafters in attic being able to fit and point well. Other problem up there is have a chimney that goes up the middle of the house, so have to keep everything to one side to prevent aiming through the chimney .
> 
> Think my issues on VHF are more about the reflections up there... the signal indicator on TV bounces wildly around by 10 (whatever '10' is ) where the UHF channels fluctuate 1,2 or 3 at a time. Not sure if any modifications to tame the reflections.
> 
> Getting SNR (TV measurement) readings of 14-15 on my borderline channel when its going in and out, which seems to correlate with the C+N/N on the spectrum picture (not a highly accurate spectrum analyzer, but ballpark).
> My good channel is a SNR of 18-20, TV signal indicator of 60.. so things are 'close', but as said, may not be enough to overcome without moving outside.
> 
> Thanks for input !
> 
> Really hoping ATSC 3.0 will help things...but roll out is taking so long, think will be a while.


And just an update... tried the tine extension and that was a failure so removed them. 

So then ordered the Kitz KT-700 and received it yesterday, but no major improvement over the 20 year old CM 7777... actually may be a slight improvement for the VHF channels so keeping it installed, plus has better LTE filtering for the new frequency range than old external filter..but don't think was getting a lot of LTE interference, better to have it though.

So, guess could try positioning for a 'magic' spot again in the attic...but without going to outside install, looks like stuck until see what happens in future with ATSC 3.0. Just frustrating to be on the edge of getting WRC but can't get it just a tad bit higher.


----------



## wildwillie6

Is there a new alternative to the old Join-Tenna? I ask because I'm thinking of upgrading my multiple antenna setup, and the stations in my area have changed frequencies in the intervening time. (I haven't been on this forum for a while; ten years ago I would have predicted that by 2021 there'd be a programmable little box to take all antenna inputs and assemble a combined signal from the best of them. I would have been wrong. But now that I'm trying to repeat my earlier success, I'm looking for something that selectively combines signals and the new Channel Master CM-0500 JOINtenna doesn't seem to be it, as it's not tuned to particular frequencies.) Apologies in advance if I'm wrong about any or all of this.


----------



## johnny antenna

wildwillie6 said:


> Is there a new alternative to the old Join-Tenna? I ask because I'm thinking of upgrading my multiple antenna setup, and the stations in my area have changed frequencies in the intervening time. (I haven't been on this forum for a while; ten years ago I would have predicted that by 2021 there'd be a programmable little box to take all antenna inputs and assemble a combined signal from the best of them. I would have been wrong. But now that I'm trying to repeat my earlier success, I'm looking for something that selectively combines signals and the new Channel Master CM-0500 JOINtenna doesn't seem to be it, as it's not tuned to particular frequencies.) Apologies in advance if I'm wrong about any or all of this.


The Televes Avant X may be what you describe but it's very expensive. For that kind of money, I would just buy a HDHomeRun tuner for each antenna and have a networked setup.


----------



## Neil L

> I would just buy a HDHomeRun tuner for each antenna and have a networked setup.


This is what I've done with a three antenna set-up to receive signals from three different directions. Works great...I'm lovin' it.


----------



## evan237

johnny antenna said:


> The Televes Avant X may be what you describe but it's very expensive. For that kind of money, I would just buy a HDHomeRun tuner for each antenna and have a networked setup.


This is what I did over a year ago. I just bought HDHomeRun tuners and networked them together. But because there's better software (in my opinion), I subscribed to Channels DVR for the channel lineup, guide view, recording, etc. on my TV sets, "versus' using the software provided by SiliconDust. Of course, people not wanting to go to that trouble can just stick with the software provided by SD or choose other software such as Plex.

Prior to networking my channels, I used an Antenna's Direct DB8e and pointed each panel in the respective direction for separate TV markets. This antenna simply uses a combiner to allow the viewer to point each panel in a different direction (i.e. different TV markets). But what I learned a long time ago is that any time you use this setup (really any separate antennas that you combine together), there is going to be some signal loss; and an amplifier is not going to bring it all back - especially if you have distant receivable signals where you want/need reliable 24/7 reception.

But this is the "beauty" of buying HDHomeRun tuners. It allows you to utilize the full strength of each antenna that is dedicated to one direction while a separate HDHomeRun tuner (hooked up to its entirely separate antenna) can do it's own thing. And having the separate tuners linked over the home network allows for a single TV guide lineup with all channels "married" together.


----------



## RaggedEdge

Neil L said:


> This is what I've done with a three antenna set-up to receive signals from three different directions. Works great...I'm lovin' it.


Same here, I have multiple antennas in the attic with multiple HDHomerun tuners networked together. ChannelsDVR as my client and it all works together great.


----------



## Casey Hartman

I'm a bit disappointed the HDHomeRun app doesn't provide a channel guide grid so I use the Live Channels app, which also aggregates Pluto TV channels. I only use the HDHR app to watch recorded shows. 

I bought my mom a Tablo for Christmas. The Tablo app has a much better interface, but unfortunately it doesn't accept number key inputs and it doesn't work with Live Channels. I might give feedback to Google to allow Tablo devices to be a source.



evan237 said:


> This is what I did over a year ago. I just bought HDHomeRun tuners and networked them together. But because there's better software (in my opinion), I subscribed to Channels DVR for the channel lineup, guide view, recording, etc. on my TV sets, "versus' using the software provided by SiliconDust.


----------



## wildwillie6

I wrote: 
_> "Ten years ago I would have predicted that by 2021 there'd be a programmable little box to take all antenna inputs and assemble a combined signal from the best of them. I would have been wrong."
_
How about that! I was wrong about being wrong, and such a device does exist. I agree that $399 is a bit high, but it does not seem unreasonable for my setup, especially since others in the household like the existing Tivo Roamios in the system.

(At least I also said, "Apologies in advance if I'm wrong about any or all of this.")


----------



## FX4

johnny antenna said:


> The Televes Avant X may be what you describe but it's very expensive. For that kind of money, I would just buy a HDHomeRun tuner for each antenna and have a networked setup.


But you are what 140.00 per antenna, a decent Ethernet switch, the wiring, I don’t think you are saving much going this route.


----------



## Neil L

FX4 said:


> ...a decent Ethernet switch, the wiring...


I think we were assuming all the network hardware was already in place. It is in most households these days, is it not? (I'm often proven wrong when I think everyone else is just like me.)


----------



## lifespeed

FX4 said:


> But you are what 140.00 per antenna, a decent Ethernet switch, the wiring, I don’t think you are saving much going this route.


The point is not merely cost savings, but lossless, digital distribution to any and all devices, streaming from outside your home, DVR-ing without a subscription, ATSC 3.0 support even for devices that don't, the list goes on. It is an excellent modern solution at modest cost.


----------



## FX4

> The point is not merely cost savings, but lossless, digital distribution to any and all devices, streaming from outside your home, DVR-ing without a subscription, ATSC 3.0 support even for devices that don't, the list goes on. It is an excellent modern solution at modest cost.


I don't know about you but with high-quality RG6 installed in my house and a quality distribution amplifier, I really have no loss over the cable feeds in my house. I'm driving nine televisions. The thing I don't like about the SiliconDust solutions is the software is underdeveloped and so far pretty buggy. I have been playing with it for about two months now. I'm staying hard-wired on my televisions for the antenna. I just can't have my guests needing to flip back and forth to get a channel to tune in, or wait two minutes for the video to start, or deal with lip-sync issues. It's a cool technology but it's not primetime. The hard-wired antenna stays and the DVR remains Tablo. I am having a little fun with the ATSC 3.0 stuff and it's nice to be able to watch TV on the iPad when I am in the greenhouse or out in the garage doing stuff. The software side is underdeveloped. I need a ready-for primetime solution, not something that has spent its lifecycle in perpetual beta status.


----------



## lifespeed

FX4 said:


> I don't know about you but with high-quality RG6 installed in my house and a quality distribution amplifier, I really have no loss over the cable feeds in my house. I'm driving nine televisions. The thing I don't like about the SiliconDust solutions is the software is underdeveloped and so far pretty buggy. I have been playing with it for about two months now. I'm staying hard-wired on my televisions for the antenna. I just can't have my guests needing to flip back and forth to get a channel to tune in, or wait two minutes for the video to start, or deal with lip-sync issues. It's a cool technology but it's not primetime. The hard-wired antenna stays and the DVR remains Tablo. I am having a little fun with the ATSC 3.0 stuff and it's nice to be able to watch TV on the iPad when I am in the greenhouse or out in the garage doing stuff. The software side is underdeveloped. I need a ready-for primetime solution, not something that has spent its lifecycle in perpetual beta status.


I have no amplifiers at all on my two 20' antennae feeds running directly to tuners in the attic, so no added noise figure and excellent fringe reception. I can pull in incredibly weak stations.

I don't use SiliconDust software, there is no need. There are media server softwares that are well developed and completely user-friendly. My family and I use Emby, but there are others. If my wife and kids can operate it, it's friendly and ready for prime time.

Of course everybody can decide for themselves how to implement these things, but your characterization of the SiliconDust tuners requiring a particular software you don't like is incorrect.


----------



## FX4

lifespeed said:


> I have no amplifiers at all on my two 20' antennae feeds running directly to tuners in the attic, so no added noise figure and excellent fringe reception. I can pull in incredibly weak stations.
> 
> I don't use SiliconDust software, there is no need. There are media server softwares that are well developed and completely user-friendly. My family and I use Emby, but there are others. If my wife and kids can operate it, it's friendly and ready for prime time.
> 
> Of course everybody can decide for themselves how to implement these things, but your characterization of the SiliconDust tuners requiring a particular software you don't like is incorrect.


There is not noise with digital television. Largely, with the exception of pulling fringe signals, or some kind of interference issue causing tuner problems you either have the signal or you don’t.


----------



## lifespeed

Interference and weak signals are a part of OTA TV. Digital reception never did eliminate the benefit of good RF performance.


----------



## FX4

lifespeed said:


> Interference and weak signals are a part of OTA TV. Digital reception never did eliminate the benefit of good RF performance.


Not really once you dial dial system. That is not to say radio signals are not subject to interference but a properly designed system interference will be a minimal problem.

BTW, I did this professionally for several years. I designed and built one of the largest terrestrial television backhaul networks in the country a handful of years back. Now it’s just a hobby, but my knowledge on designing and setting these kind of systems up is professional.


----------



## lifespeed

FX4 said:


> Not really once you dial dial system. That is not to say radio signals are not subject to interference but a properly designed system interference will be a minimal problem.
> 
> BTW, I did this professionally for several years. I designed and built one of the largest terrestrial television backhaul networks in the country a handful of years back. Now it’s just a hobby, but my knowledge on designing and setting these kind of systems up is professional.


I'm an electrical engineer with many innovative and successful RF designs to my credit. You of all people should know what I posted was correct.


----------



## FX4

lifespeed said:


> Interference and weak signals are a part of OTA TV. Digital reception never did eliminate the benefit of good RF performance.


Yes and no. Putting my professional hat on we never pulled a signal over the air that was not a solid clean signal with a direct line of sight of the transmission tower. SNR and levels had to be excellent or we found another way. Putting on my hobbyist hat, sure, right now I’m trying to pull fringe signals from Cleveland because I think I can. Because, why not? That said, I currently have dead reliable signals pulled from 78 stations within 50 miles of my house and rarely a blip on the television screen.


----------



## FX4

lifespeed said:


> I'm an electrical engineer with many innovative and successful RF designs to my credit. You of all people should know what I posted was correct.


Cool, in my prior life I was a telecommunications engineer.


----------



## FX4

Neil L said:


> I think we were assuming all the network hardware was already in place. It is in most households these days, is it not? (I'm often proven wrong when I think everyone else is just like me.)


Well then you are pulling either Ethernet cable or coax to get to the switch that exists, but no, not really. Pulling all that cable will cost more than a decent Ethernet switch in most cases. Most people get a four to six port switch integrated into the wireless router from their ISP. So, odds are, you are adding another switch to handle the antennas. But no matter what, there isn’t really a price break here. And as matter of fact once you go beyond two antennas you are spending more money to execute the SiliconDust solution. I’m not saying the SiliconDust solution doesn’t have its place, it does, but it doesn’t trump this option. Each way has its pros and cons.


----------



## Primestar31

bugtussle said:


> Have any members had the opportunity to try out the new mast amplifier from Televes? If so how is it working for you? I've ordered one and waiting for shipment. Televes





Primestar31 said:


> I've ordered one to replace a Kitztech KT-200-Coax model, but it hasn't been shipped yet, as everybody is out of stock. Hopefully I'll get it before any big snow stops me from being able to install it.


Ok, I received the Televes 560483 dual input pre-amp a couple months ago, but since I'm located in mid-Michigan, and we've had tons of snow, I haven't been able to install it until TODAY, 2/26/2021.

My configuration is an HDB91x for all my UHF channels, and a Antenna Craft Y10-7-13 for my only VHF channel, which is on RF12. My mast has the antennas up about 25 feet. I'm hoping this Summer to get them up to at least 35ft, maybe 40ft. My tv station towers are pretty much all close to nearly the same distance away, and all in an arc from me. Their radiated power from highest to weakest, and the lobe of the HDB91x allow me to aim at the middle of my arc, and pretty much get all the UHF stations at about the same levels

I installed the Televes in place of the Kitztech KT-200-COAX pre-amp I've had installed for years now, also replacing the Kitztech power inserter downstream. I discovered that the Kitztech easily BEATS IT hands down. The Televes definitely has higher noise figure, (I estimate about 6db, compared to the KT-200 .4db) and my weakest channel is WEAKER with the Televes and pixelates. I tried adjusting the gain with the fiddle tool, but it was already at max out of the box. Adjusting it to less gain, made things even worse. By the way, I'm only boosting my UHF with the KT-200 from the HDB91x, and not the VHF antenna side. I'm using a Radio Shack UVSJ to separate the antennas, that passes power on the UHF side only.

I de-installed the Televes pre-amp, and put the Kitztech back in place. I'm now back to where I was before.

I wish the KT-200 had a narrower range, since it goes up to the old 806Mhz, but it still seems to be the best choice of all the various pre-amps I tried over the years. That's been quite a few.

So, I guess I can't recommend the Televes pre-amp over the Kitztech KT-200-COAX model. Though it may work well for some people, in certain cases.

Anybody interested in buying it from me? It's brand new, and was only installed about 1 hour.


----------



## tustinfarm

I've had the TinySA spectrum analyzer for a few months now, and recently used it to troubleshoot a poor signal problem. My S/N ratios had been gradually decreasing over the past few months, and I chalked it up to increasing RF noise in my area. But then one morning the signal quality took a deep dive, leaving me with only 3 or 4 of the strongest stations. The TinySA was indiepensible in viewing the signal quality, starting at the antenna on down the chain of assorted amps/splitters. My first view of the raw, unamplified signals at the antenna was a huge relief, showing that if I could just port most of that S/N quality to the DVR I would be fine, and that neighborhood RF noise was not the culprit. Long story short, it turned out that the power supply for my distribution amp was the culprit. Surprisingly, it was a _linear _power adapter that had lost its mojo. And naturally, it hadn't fully died, sputtering just enough power to _partially _power the dist. amp - the worst case for troubleshooting electronics. Swapped it out, and voila all the signals were back to their original quality. Using the PC software, I captured the attached the VHF/UHF spectra for my signals...at my location all but two of the towers are >50 miles away. Getting 10 solid daytime channels on UHF, and 2 on VHF. I find a sublime pleasure in viewing the TV signal spectra, with their beautiful little ATSC pilot tones. But I digress. And apologies if I already posted this same story...my enthusiasm for the TinySA gets the best of me sometimes.

So I sing the praises of having such a tiny and portable spectrum analyzer that fits into the palm of your hand. One "gotcha" with the was that there are settings for the built in LNA and AGC - I found that I had to turn off the AGC to get clean spectra while I was troubleshooting the weak signal problem. Also, I haven't fully mastered the dBm calibration; the actual signal/noise ratios for the plots are higher than displayed; I'll need to re-visit the LNA/AGC settings.


----------



## rabbit73

tustinfarm said:


> I've had the TinySA spectrum analyzer for a few months now, and recently used it to troubleshoot a poor signal problem. My S/N ratios had been gradually decreasing over the past few months, and I chalked it up to increasing RF noise in my area.


Thanks for the interesting TinySA images.


> I find a sublime pleasure in viewing the TV signal spectra, with their beautiful little ATSC pilot tones.


So do I.

I also see lower SNRs on VHF-High because of the higher noise floor from electrical interference.





































The SDRplay RSP1A SDR has a calibrated scale that can be used to measure the strength of TV signals. I have checked it against my Sadelco DisplayMax 800 signal level meter for narrow bandwidth signals:










To use it for measuring the strength of TV signals, it is necessary to add a correction factor of +15 dB. The correction factor is based on bandwidth:




























The results agree with my signal level meter.


----------



## ncsercs

Crusing Amazon, I've seen several smaller DB4e 'clones' like this. What do you guys think? Any good?



https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0828MC4D7/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=A2IQQORW75TFY6&psc=1


----------



## Primestar31

ncsercs said:


> Crusing Amazon, I've seen several smaller DB4e 'clones' like this. What do you guys think? Any good?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0828MC4D7/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=A2IQQORW75TFY6&psc=1


Well, they lie right off the bat with the "150 mile" statement. That type black plastic on antennas pretty much gets brittle after a couple years, and easily breaks. On the other hand, $40~ seems like a good price for what they are giving you, including the coax, preamp, and splitter. So, IF you need an antenna, it might be worth trying out. Amazon will always take it back if you don't damage it, if it doesn't work for you.


----------



## lifespeed

Sure, just climb up on your roof, pull it down and ship it back. Times two for the re-install.

If you're going to install an antenna at least do some basic due diligence and try to get something that will last. I've had my (authentic) DB4E up for 5 years without crumbling plastic or any failures. Did it cost more than $40? Maybe, I don't even remember and don't care. What I care about is it still works fine today.

I wouldn't bargain shop for an antenna mounted on the end of a long pole.


----------



## jrwalte

Not to mention nothing in that kit grounds the coax before it enters your home or even grounds it at all (even if you use the preamp, it's a 2 prong not 3 with earth ground).


----------



## b2v

I bought a house with an antenna and would like to get it operable. It comes in on the yellow line. I understand I likely need a pre-amp. There is not much in the way of electrical receptacles for power near where the lines split. The location is Wichita Kansas with plenty of local stations nearby. Any low cost suggestions for reception? It's probably 30 to 40 feet of cable from the antenna to the splitter. Thank you.


----------



## Calaveras

Please read and follow the sticky posts above in regards to antenna/reception questions. We can only guess what your signals are like. PM Dr. Don if you don't have enough posts to post a link. 

Many stations nearby usually means strong signals. No preamp necessary. Have you tried the antenna as wired?


----------



## Casey Hartman

My mom lives in Olathe although it's a bit aways from Wichita. That antenna ought to be able to receive all the stations in Wichita and Hutchinson although low-powered KFVT might be a challenge depending on your location. I would connect it to your TV to determine if a pre-amp or distribution amplifier is needed; if one is needed start with a preamp at the antenna before adding a distribution amplifier.



b2v said:


> I bought a house with an antenna and would like to get it operable. It comes in on the yellow line. I understand I likely need a pre-amp. There is not much in the way of electrical receptacles for power near where the lines split. The location is Wichita Kansas with plenty of local stations nearby. Any low cost suggestions for reception? It's probably 30 to 40 feet of cable from the antenna to the splitter. Thank you.


----------



## mattdp

Look very closely at the antenna. It appears that the UHF element and one of the VHF directors are both folded up. Might want to get that straightened out (and also check the connection, maybe add some dielectric grease while you're up there) before proceeding too far. Will make a big difference in performance.


----------



## TelevesTech

Primestar31 said:


> Ok, I received the Televes 560483 dual input pre-amp a couple months ago, but since I'm located in mid-Michigan, and we've had tons of snow, I haven't been able to install it until TODAY, 2/26/2021.
> 
> My configuration is an HDB91x for all my UHF channels, and a Antenna Craft Y10-7-13 for my only VHF channel, which is on RF12. My mast has the antennas up about 25 feet. I'm hoping this Summer to get them up to at least 35ft, maybe 40ft. My tv station towers are pretty much all close to nearly the same distance away, and all in an arc from me. Their radiated power from highest to weakest, and the lobe of the HDB91x allow me to aim at the middle of my arc, and pretty much get all the UHF stations at about the same levels
> 
> I installed the Televes in place of the Kitztech KT-200-COAX pre-amp I've had installed for years now, also replacing the Kitztech power inserter downstream. I discovered that the Kitztech easily BEATS IT hands down. The Televes definitely has higher noise figure, (I estimate about 6db, compared to the KT-200 .4db) and my weakest channel is WEAKER with the Televes and pixelates. I tried adjusting the gain with the fiddle tool, but it was already at max out of the box. Adjusting it to less gain, made things even worse. By the way, I'm only boosting my UHF with the KT-200 from the HDB91x, and not the VHF antenna side. I'm using a Radio Shack UVSJ to separate the antennas, that passes power on the UHF side only.
> 
> I de-installed the Televes pre-amp, and put the Kitztech back in place. I'm now back to where I was before.
> 
> I wish the KT-200 had a narrower range, since it goes up to the old 806Mhz, but it still seems to be the best choice of all the various pre-amps I tried over the years. That's been quite a few.
> 
> So, I guess I can't recommend the Televes pre-amp over the Kitztech KT-200-COAX model. Though it may work well for some people, in certain cases.
> 
> Anybody interested in buying it from me? It's brand new, and was only installed about 1 hour.


I think this requires some clarification. The 560483 is a poor choice for your application. Please, allow me to elaborate. This dual broadband input preamp is intended to provide a solution to combine two broadband antennas on a budget, as such, it has an input broadband combiner, which inevitably increases the effective NF of the system. It is a great solution for many scenarios where a customer wants or needs to combine two antennas overlapping bands, but due to the nature of the combination, it is quite obviously not the ideal choice to be used for just one feed, be it coming from a broadband antenna or by diplexing several band-specific antennas, particularly in a fringe situation, as in that case the system is losing precious C/N by the broadband combination that it might need to meet the decode threshold. Not because the amplifier is "bad" by any means (it actually provides much better filtering, flatness, and gain regulation compared to most of the commercially available amps currently offered in the market) but because of the input RF combination needed for the intended application. This is actually mentioned in the amp's manual:










The actual NF of the active itself is pretty much in line with that of the unit you are using (which is not .4dB). The right product for one feed would be the one input, P/N 560383, or in a fringe situation with two antennas, use two individual preamplifiers and combine after, once the aerial feeds have been preamped and the NF of the system established. I hope this clarifies a little better. These are really very good units when used as intended. If you have the opportunity I suggest you try the 560383, which provides the most accurate repack filtering in the industry nowadays and individually adjusts the VHF and UHF independently ensuring an optimal amount of gain is applied to each band over time avoiding overload.


----------



## Primestar31

@TelevesTech Stay tuned, I do have intentions of trying a Televes 560383 single-input model.


----------



## TelevesTech

Primestar31 said:


> @TelevesTech Stay tuned, I do have intentions of trying a Televes 560383 single-input model.


I’ll be interested in knowing the results


----------



## LaserBeamSC

Primestar31 said:


> @TelevesTech Stay tuned, I do have intentions of trying a Televes 560383 single-input model.


I had a DB8e and the Juice on a 50’ tower and thought they were great. I don’t have the equipment to test NF but constantly but watch the SNR over a period of weeks when watching TV. I tried the dual and got better results than the Juice but once I learned the 560483 wasn’t as good as the single-input because of some filtering I tried the 560383 and it was better than both the Juice and the 560483. I like testing antennas so I tried the DAT BOSS LR and it smoked all of the above. I’m assuming the DAT is a better antenna in my situation and the built in preamp is similar technology to the new stand alone preamps other the the LTE filter but not sure. It works well for me and fringe markets. I wanted to replace the combiner on the DB8e with the 560483 with panels in different directions but never got around to it. I would also like to try the Kitz sometime. Some posters swear by them. Good luck with your results!


----------



## LaserBeamSC

Primestar31 said:


> @TelevesTech Stay tuned, I do have intentions of trying a Televes 560383 single-input model.


Just one more thing, I have a very strong RF28 seven miles from my home. What is impressive about the Televes preamps to me was they pulled in RF29 about 60 miles away in the same direction 50% of the time when the Juice couldn’t at all. I’m assuming it’s the AGC feature and/or lower NF but that’s just a guess.


----------



## TelevesTech

LaserBeamSC said:


> I had a DB8e and the Juice on a 50’ tower and thought they were great. I don’t have the equipment to test NF but constantly but watch the SNR over a period of weeks when watching TV. I tried the dual and got better results than the Juice but once I learned the 560483 wasn’t as good as the single-input because of some filtering I tried the 560383 and it was better than both the Juice and the 560483. I like testing antennas so I tried the DAT BOSS LR and it smoked all of the above. I’m assuming the DAT is a better antenna in my situation and the built in preamp is similar technology to the new stand alone preamps other the the LTE filter but not sure. It works well for me and fringe markets. I wanted to replace the combiner on the DB8e with the 560483 with panels in different directions but never got around to it. I would also like to try the Kitz sometime. Some posters swear by them. Good luck with your results!


Actually, the 560483 is every bit as good as the 560383 as far as amplification, filtering, regulation, and noise figure goes, the difference is there is a two way broadband combiner at the input of the 560483 to allow for the combination of two overlapping band antennas when the application calls for it, w/o needing any external combiners. That will reduce the C/N when compared to a one input amplifier without a combiner, but it's a good solution for many situations, a prime example being a swinging 8 bowtie antenna, or two different antennas aimed at different markets, when the lineup is such that allows for such a combination. Actually the 560483 filters the VHF contribution of each antenna and sums it, hitting one individual VHF AGC preamp, and does the same with the UHF contribution of the two inputs, they are summed and hit an independent UHF AGC preamp, then everything is summed in the output. It also provides input attenuators to balance the incoming signals in the best way possible when the application calls for it. 

I am aware of many users swapping the combiners in DB8e antennas by this dual input preamp with great success. Now, if the situation is fringe, then a better solution is to amplify any antennas individually and combine after, once the NF of the system has been established. Of course if one is amplifying just one feed, then there's no point in using that dual amplifier and one is better off using a single input preamp to avoid that combination loss.


----------



## Primestar31

TelevesTech said:


> Of course if one is amplifying just one feed, then there's no point in using that dual amplifier and one is better off using a single input preamp to avoid that combination loss.


At the time I bought the 560483, it was the only one that had just come in stock. I couldn't find any available other models. I didn't think there would be that much difference between the two models, so didn't want to wait until the single one came into stock. Then we got all sorts of snow constantly, and I couldn't install it until February anyway, lol.


----------



## LaserBeamSC

TelevesTech said:


> Actually, the 560483 is every bit as good as the 560383 as far as amplification, filtering, regulation, and noise figure goes, the difference is there is a two way broadband combiner at the input of the 560483 to allow for the combination of two overlapping band antennas when the application calls for it, w/o needing any external combiners. That will reduce the C/N when compared to a one input amplifier without a combiner, but it's a good solution for many situations, a prime example being a swinging 8 bowtie antenna, or two different antennas aimed at different markets, when the lineup is such that allows for such a combination. Actually the 560483 filters the VHF contribution of each antenna and sums it, hitting one individual VHF AGC preamp, and does the same with the UHF contribution of the two inputs, they are summed and hit an independent UHF AGC preamp, then everything is summed in the output. It also provides input attenuators to balance the incoming signals in the best way possible when the application calls for it.
> 
> I am aware of many users swapping the combiners in DB8e antennas by this dual input preamp with great success. Now, if the situation is fringe, then a better solution is to amplify any antennas individually and combine after, once the NF of the system has been established. Of course if one is amplifying just one feed, then there's no point in using that dual amplifier and one is better off using a single input preamp to avoid that combination loss.


Thank you for the detailed clarification. I’ve had stellar results with the Televes preamps including the intergraded preamp of the DAT BOSS LR. I like the directivity of this antenna. On many mornings and nights I can receive stations in one market and turn the LR using a rotor to another market and receive stations on the same frequency. That’s happened with other antennas but certainly not as often for me. I’m installing a new fold over kit tower later this summer that will be about 70’ after mast and I’m looking forward to vertically stacking a couple LR’s but the wheels turn slow on those projects.


----------



## TelevesTech

LaserBeamSC said:


> Thank you for the detailed clarification. I’ve had stellar results with the Televes preamps including the intergraded preamp of the DAT BOSS LR. I like the directivity of this antenna. On many mornings and nights I can receive stations in one market and turn the LR using a rotor to another market and receive stations on the same frequency. That’s happened with other antennas but certainly not as often for me. I’m installing a new fold over kit tower later this summer that will be about 70’ after mast and I’m looking forward to vertically stacking a couple LR’s but the wheels turn slow on those projects.


I would not advise stacking two active DAT antennas, the results will likely be underwhelming due to the preamplifiers on each. What you could do is install passive dipoles on them, and then proceed to a traditional stack arrangement, with a preamplifier after, like the standalone 560383 or 561380


----------



## TelevesTech

Primestar31 said:


> At the time I bought the 560483, it was the only one that had just come in stock. I couldn't find any available other models. I didn't think there would be that much difference between the two models, so didn't want to wait until the single one came into stock. Then we got all sorts of snow constantly, and I couldn't install it until February anyway, lol.


Looking forward to seeing how the 560383 works in your situation.


----------



## Primestar31

LaserBeamSC said:


> I had a DB8e and the Juice on a 50’ tower and thought they were great. I don’t have the equipment to test NF but constantly but watch the SNR over a period of weeks when watching TV. I tried the dual and got better results than the Juice but once I learned the 560483 wasn’t as good as the single-input because of some filtering I tried the 560383 and it was better than both the Juice and the 560483. I like testing antennas so I tried the DAT BOSS LR and it smoked all of the above. I’m assuming the DAT is a better antenna in my situation and the built in preamp is similar technology to the new stand alone preamps other the the LTE filter but not sure. It works well for me and fringe markets. I wanted to replace the combiner on the DB8e with the 560483 with panels in different directions but never got around to it. I would also like to try the Kitz sometime. Some posters swear by them. Good luck with your results!


This will be long-winded, but I think all needs to be given for background.

My outdoor antenna system which is at about 25ft at present installed with all PerfectVision 3Ghz swept RG-6 quad-shield & Thomas & Betts snap n seal connectors, consists of an AntennaCraft Y10-7-13 for my local RF 12 channel. That goes into an MCM Electronics FM filter, then into the non-power passing side of a UVSJ. Then a HDB91x UHF antenna for all my local UHF, went into the 2015 model KT-200-Coax preamp, and then into the power passing side of the UVSJ. Then, the output of that goes down to the power injector. 

After the power injector, I also had a PCT-MA2-4P 4-way powered splitter, though likely overkill, it was handy from a previous setup. Off that, I have a Tivo Roamio used for OTA, and 2 tv sets (previously had 3 tv's, but one fried a few months ago).

My house is located at a place where all my DMA's tv towers are in an arc, from North, North-East to slightly West of South. They are also grouped all from around 32 to 52~ miles away. Luckily enough, the highest powered ones are on opposite ends of that arc, and the ONE low power station I want to receive (10KW at 32 miles) is close to dead-center of that arc. 

So, my HDB91x UHF antenna is pointed right at that station (WFFC-LD, RF17), and it receives all the other UHF stations acceptably within limits of its beamwidth/sidelobes.

Once I got everything all tweaked and locked down some years ago and finally settled on the KT-200 preamp as being the BEST in my situation out of many that I had tried, I still always felt that there might possibly be more to be gained, and who of us doesn't like to keep playing with antenna setups, lol.

Anyway, I started reading about Televes and their various products this past Winter, and wanted to try one. I finally was able to pre-order a Televes 560483 two-input preamp from Ness Electronics,and got it 3 weeks later. Unfortunately, that was just before Christmas, and Michigan got pounded with too many snow storms to allow me to install it right away, since I had to go on the roof. That's not easy when there's at least two feet of icy snow up there.

I finally was able to install it in February. I eventually did a simple straight-swap of removing the KT-200, and installing the 560483 in its place, along with their power inserter to replace the Kitztech one. I tried various combinations between the antennas/preamp/uvsj while checking it, but NEVER found one that worked even as well as OR better than the KT-200.

In fact, the Televes preamp couldn't even lock WFFC-LD RF17 that the Kitztech could. Locking that station that's only 10KW and 32 miles away, is my gold-standard on MUST HAVES.

Anyway, I thought "Well, that's yet another $70 down the drain, and time wasted trying to beat the Kitztech". I then put the KT-200 back in, and put the Televes preamp into my parts drawer.

That's where it all stood, until a week or so ago after Chet's post in the TV and Fm DXing group on Facebook comparing various companies preamps, and I made a reply comment that I also hadn't had any luck with the particular Televes preamp I tried. Javier Ruano of Televes read that comment, mentioned that he didn't think that particular preamp was the best choice for my setup, and offered to swap it out straight-up for the 560383 single input one. I took him up on that offer. I had nothing to lose any way by doing so.

I received a Televes 560383 single input preamp this week Tuesday, and was finally able to install it today in my system, since we've had some bad weather the last few days. I once again did a straight swap for the KT-200, so the preamp is only in the UHF chain. I also of course swapped out the power injector, but initially left everything else the same.

The Tivo Roamio hidden diagnostics screen (which has a LOT of data), showed that Signal strength and SNR was on average a tad better than the KT-200, but not by much. Since the Televes power injector has TWO outputs and the Televes preamp has a little more juice than the KT-200, I then also decided to remove the PCT powered splitter from the signal chain. I put the Tivo on the injectors main output (since it's my most-watched device) and used a PCT passive two-way splitter on the other output for the two tv sets.

Now, with the Televes preamp, signal strength and SNR readings on average on the Tivo and tv sets are around 4-5 points UP higher than they were with the KT-200, and they appear to be more stable. Oh, did I mention we are having 30+MPH wind gusts all through this testing today 4/30, and I have lots of trees flapping their leaves starting about 100 to 300 feet away that I have to aim through? Even so, I'm NOT getting any RS Uncorrected errors on my weakest channel, which I was getting a few now and again with the KT-200.

Anyway, I feel that this particular Televes model 560383 preamp seems to beat the Kitztech KT-200-Coax by a bit, and I have every intention of keeping it installed. It appears to be well built, has FM & 5G LTE filtering built-in, and I don't see how anybody could go wrong in trying them out for themselves.


----------



## Calaveras

Primestar31 said:


> The Tivo Roamio hidden diagnostics screen (which has a LOT of data), showed that Signal strength and SNR was on average a tad better than the KT-200, but not by much.


Just one comment since people keep getting fooled by this. I have a TiVo also. The "Signal Strength" on the Diagnostic screen is not actually signal strength. It is Signal Quality (SNR) on a percentage scale. It moves in lock step with the SNR. I wish it was real Signal Strength like it is on my Sony TV. That would be much more useful.


----------



## LaserBeamSC

Primestar31 said:


> This will be long-winded, but I think all needs to be given for background.
> 
> My outdoor antenna system which is at about 25ft at present installed with all PerfectVision 3Ghz swept RG-6 quad-shield & Thomas & Betts snap n seal connectors, consists of an AntennaCraft Y10-7-13 for my local RF 12 channel. That goes into an MCM Electronics FM filter, then into the non-power passing side of a UVSJ. Then a HDB91x UHF antenna for all my local UHF, went into the 2015 model KT-200-Coax preamp, and then into the power passing side of the UVSJ. Then, the output of that goes down to the power injector.
> 
> After the power injector, I also had a PCT-MA2-4P 4-way powered splitter, though likely overkill, it was handy from a previous setup. Off that, I have a Tivo Roamio used for OTA, and 2 tv sets (previously had 3 tv's, but one fried a few months ago).
> 
> My house is located at a place where all my DMA's tv towers are in an arc, from North, North-East to slightly West of South. They are also grouped all from around 32 to 52~ miles away. Luckily enough, the highest powered ones are on opposite ends of that arc, and the ONE low power station I want to receive (10KW at 32 miles) is close to dead-center of that arc.
> 
> So, my HDB91x UHF antenna is pointed right at that station (WFFC-LD, RF17), and it receives all the other UHF stations acceptably within limits of its beamwidth/sidelobes.
> 
> Once I got everything all tweaked and locked down some years ago and finally settled on the KT-200 preamp as being the BEST in my situation out of many that I had tried, I still always felt that there might possibly be more to be gained, and who of us doesn't like to keep playing with antenna setups, lol.
> 
> Anyway, I started reading about Televes and their various products this past Winter, and wanted to try one. I finally was able to pre-order a Televes 560483 two-input preamp from Ness Electronics,and got it 3 weeks later. Unfortunately, that was just before Christmas, and Michigan got pounded with too many snow storms to allow me to install it right away, since I had to go on the roof. That's not easy when there's at least two feet of icy snow up there.
> 
> I finally was able to install it in February. I eventually did a simple straight-swap of removing the KT-200, and installing the 560483 in its place, along with their power inserter to replace the Kitztech one. I tried various combinations between the antennas/preamp/uvsj while checking it, but NEVER found one that worked even as well as OR better than the KT-200.
> 
> In fact, the Televes preamp couldn't even lock WFFC-LD RF17 that the Kitztech could. Locking that station that's only 10KW and 32 miles away, is my gold-standard on MUST HAVES.
> 
> Anyway, I thought "Well, that's yet another $70 down the drain, and time wasted trying to beat the Kitztech". I then put the KT-200 back in, and put the Televes preamp into my parts drawer.
> 
> That's where it all stood, until a week or so ago after Chet's post in the TV and Fm DXing group on Facebook comparing various companies preamps, and I made a reply comment that I also hadn't had any luck with the particular Televes preamp I tried. Javier Ruano of Televes read that comment, mentioned that he didn't think that particular preamp was the best choice for my setup, and offered to swap it out straight-up for the 560383 single input one. I took him up on that offer. I had nothing to lose any way by doing so.
> 
> I received a Televes 560383 single input preamp this week Tuesday, and was finally able to install it today in my system, since we've had some bad weather the last few days. I once again did a straight swap for the KT-200, so the preamp is only in the UHF chain. I also of course swapped out the power injector, but initially left everything else the same.
> 
> The Tivo Roamio hidden diagnostics screen (which has a LOT of data), showed that Signal strength and SNR was on average a tad better than the KT-200, but not by much. Since the Televes power injector has TWO outputs and the Televes preamp has a little more juice than the KT-200, I then also decided to remove the PCT powered splitter from the signal chain. I put the Tivo on the injectors main output (since it's my most-watched device) and used a PCT passive two-way splitter on the other output for the two tv sets.
> 
> Now, with the Televes preamp, signal strength and SNR readings on average on the Tivo and tv sets are around 4-5 points UP higher than they were with the KT-200, and they appear to be more stable. Oh, did I mention we are having 30+MPH wind gusts all through this testing today 4/30, and I have lots of trees flapping their leaves starting about 100 to 300 feet away that I have to aim through? Even so, I'm NOT getting any RS Uncorrected errors on my weakest channel, which I was getting a few now and again with the KT-200.
> 
> Anyway, I feel that this particular Televes model 560383 preamp seems to beat the Kitztech KT-200-Coax by a bit, and I have every intention of keeping it installed. It appears to be well built, has FM & 5G LTE filtering built-in, and I don't see how anybody could go wrong in trying them out for themselves.


Now that’s a review! Just curious, did you take the PCT powered splitter out of system when you tried the 560483?


----------



## Primestar31

LaserBeamSC said:


> Now that’s a review! Just curious, did you take the PCT powered splitter out of system when you tried the 560483?


Yes, but only ran my Tivo off of it, to see if that LD station would lock. Since it wouldn't with any configuration of that Televes preamp, I didn't go further with it. It's only 10KW, and I'm grabbing it from 32 miles away. The KT-200-Coax preamp handled that readily, but I like trying new things.


----------



## LaserBeamSC

Primestar31 said:


> Yes, but only ran my Tivo off of it, to see if that LD station would lock. Since it wouldn't with any configuration of that Televes preamp, I didn't go further with it. It's only 10KW, and I'm grabbing it from 32 miles away. The KT-200-Coax preamp handled that readily, but I like trying new things.


I know some preamps/antennas just don’t work out for some but I’m sold on the few Televes products I’ve tried and personally have not seen better customer service and that’s not to say nobody has good customer service but I haven’t experienced better. Javier or the Televes Tech will try to help with any question and are very available. I have an Avant X new in the box I’ll be trying one day but lots of work to do on cabling and such before that.


----------



## Primestar31

LaserBeamSC said:


> I know some preamps/antennas just don’t work out for some but I’m sold on the few Televes products I’ve tried and personally have not seen better customer service and that’s not to say nobody has good customer service but I haven’t experienced better. Javier or the Televes Tech will try to help with any question and are very available. I have an Avant X new in the box I’ll be trying one day but lots of work to do on cabling and such before that.


I'd have to agree that the customer service that I got from Televes via Javier, was stellar, and certainly appreciated. That 2 input preamp may only have cost $70, but I'm retired, and it all adds up. I never would have spent yet another $70 to try their single input model, in hopes that it might work better. This gave me a chance to do so, and worked out fine for me.


----------



## LaserBeamSC

Calaveras said:


> Just one comment since people keep getting fooled by this. I have a TiVo also. The "Signal Strength" on the Diagnostic screen is not actually signal strength. It is Signal Quality (SNR) on a percentage scale. It moves in lock step with the SNR. I wish it was real Signal Strength like it is on my Sony TV. That would be much more useful.


I have an older and newer model (X900H) Sony and both have a great Signal Diagnostics feature that I constantly monitor that includes Signal Strength and SNR (db). The positive thing on the newer model is in a couple of clicks I can be on that feature but the negative thing is the Signal Diagnostics screen takes up 1/3 of the screen and is nontransparent. The older model is the opposite. Another positive/negative for me is the Signal Diagnostics feature is often more interesting to watch than what is actually on TV.....


----------



## dmatch

Primestar31 said:


> Yes, but only ran my Tivo off of it, to see if that LD station would lock. Since it wouldn't with any configuration of that Televes preamp, I didn't go further with it. It's only 10KW, and I'm grabbing it from 32 miles away. The KT-200-Coax preamp handled that readily, but I like trying new things.


Just curious. Is that 32 miles with line of sight to the transmitter (no obstructions other than the trees you mentioned)?


----------



## Primestar31

dmatch said:


> Just curious. Is that 32 miles with line of sight to the transmitter (no obstructions other than the trees you mentioned)?


Yes, 32 miles line of sight. No obstructions real close to me other than maple, oak, and some pine trees. There is a Verizon cell tower I have to aim right through the middle to get to WFFC, but that's 2.38 miles away.


----------



## traveling wave

LaserBeamSC said:


> Now that’s a review! Just curious, did you take the PCT powered splitter out of system when you tried the 560483?


----------



## Primestar31

@traveling wave If you are asking, as I can't tell with no comment added, that was answered in a post above, look there.


----------



## Primestar31

rabbit73 said:


> The XB16A has more gain, but costs more. Note that the gain is in dBd; add 2.15 for dBi.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TV / FM / DAB aerials and aerial kits plus satellite dishes Archives - A.T.V. Poles, Brackets, Clamps & Aerials


@traveling wave I just tried ordering one of these XB16A antennas. I live in mid-Michigan, here's what they said:



> Unfortunately there is a £90 surcharge to the USA


That's $127.03 at today's exchange rate. That puts this antenna out of reach for an additional 2dB over an HDB91x.


----------



## bernieoc

After reading above comments about the Televes one input amp I tried it to solve a channel 3 (PBS) problem.
I made a CH 3 length dipole attached to the rail of my balcony (keep the management happy) in our retirement apartment facing 5 deg off Roanoke, VA towers 50 miles. Picks up all channels + CH 7 from Bedford 20 miles. Outside unit 3' away -bottom of rail 25 ' to inside unit - feeds 2 tv's.
With the previous Channel Master red/green amp inside channel 3 had constant break ups and we could not use our 
kitchen LED light - my DVR+ now says 100/100 for all channels.
The only interference left is a foot vibrator used in the same room - must use when CH 3 not being used.
Note: I bought it from Lowes for half price of Amazon ( and got Korean vet 10% discount) 
Thank you all.


----------



## Primestar31

bernieoc said:


> The only interference left is a foot vibrator used in the same room - must use when CH 3 not being used.


Can you find a metal box with an open top to put the foot vibrator in, and then ground the box to an electrical outlet ground screw, that you KNOW is actually grounded? The correct size to be able to still use it, but maybe enough to act as a Faraday Cage, and help shield it from causing issues with reception.

IF the foot vibrator is metal, (or the motor inside) perhaps just adding a separate ground wire from the motor to an outlet ground screw would be enough.

Of course, I'm also assuming that you have the coax and preamp grounded? If not, you should do so. Even in a use such as yours (low and short coax), it'll help protect from static.


----------



## bernieoc

Did not consider a ground from a balcony - only metal is railing on wood floor - my access is limited to balcony-
vibrator is a miner concern - it is metal - will try outlet ground 
Thank you


----------



## Calaveras

bernieoc said:


> After reading above comments about the Televes one input amp I tried it to solve a channel 3 (PBS) problem.
> I made a CH 3 length dipole attached to the rail of my balcony (keep the management happy) in our retirement apartment facing 5 deg off Roanoke, VA towers 50 miles. Picks up all channels + CH 7 from Bedford 20 miles. Outside unit 3' away -bottom of rail 25 ' to inside unit - feeds 2 tv's.
> With the previous Channel Master red/green amp inside channel 3 had constant break ups


I'm not clear on your setup. Did you use the same channel 3 dipole with both preamps in the same balcony location? The only difference was swapping the preamps? It sounds like you're saying the antenna with the CM preamp was indoors and the antenna with the Televes preamp was outdoors.


----------



## Calaveras

Primestar31 said:


> IF the foot vibrator is metal, (or the motor inside) perhaps just adding a separate ground wire from the motor to an outlet ground screw would be enough.


That would not be an RF ground at channel 3. Any piece of wire longer than about 1 foot from earth ground at channel 3 is an antenna. All the grounding antenna discussions are about lightning protection (DC) and not RF grounding.


----------



## Primestar31

Calaveras said:


> That would not be an RF ground at channel 3. Any piece of wire longer than about 1 foot from earth ground at channel 3 is an antenna. All the grounding antenna discussions are about lightning protection (DC) and not RF grounding.


That's true, but he likely didn't even ground the coax, (which I also mentioned) and that alone might be enough to help with the interference. Regardless, we both know that the coax should be grounded anyway.


----------



## Calaveras

Primestar31 said:


> That's true, but he likely didn't even ground the coax, (which I also mentioned) and that alone might be enough to help with the interference. Regardless, we both know that the coax should be grounded anyway.


The only reason to ground coax is to provide some lightning protection. Indoor coax doesn't need to be grounded. Unwanted RF on the coax shield is best dealt with by adding ferrite chokes to the coax.

Connecting coax through a wire many wavelengths long to an earth ground in hopes of reducing interference is no different than connecting a long piece of wire to the coax shield that is connected to nothing at the other end.


----------



## bernieoc

Antenna location the same with both amps - the Channel master was inside with the tv's - the new Televes is
split -pre amp with antenna and control unit with tv.
Coax runs from antenna on outside of metal rail for 20' thru window - no grounding.
Vibrator problem not important.


----------



## richart

bernieoc said:


> The only interference left is a foot vibrator used in the same room - must use when CH 3 not being used.
> Note: I bought it from Lowes for half price of Amazon ( and got Korean vet 10% discount)


Is your foot vibrator AC powered? If so, you might want to consider adding a noise filter to the AC line cord...it involves wrapping a few turns of the power cord through a mix 31 or 43 ferrite toroid or adding a couple of mix 31 or 43 snap on ferrite beads to the power cord. The interference you are experiencing may emanate from the foot vibrator via the power cord and if so the ferrite would suppress the interference. You can read up on the products at Home - Palomar Engineers®

There are a number of sources for the ferrite components including Palomar Engineers, Amazon and KF7P.com.


----------



## Calaveras

Televes 560383 Kit (560331 preamp) Mini-Review and Comparison to the Kitztech KT-200

With all the recent interest in this preamp I decided to purchase one and run my usual bench tests. I've only attached analyzer displays where it was easier to see the results than just list numbers. 

I did not measure anything on low VHF since there's no benefit to having a preamp on low VHF. Too much environmental noise even in quiet locations and too low coax loss. 

Gain/Bandpass

See attached displays. Gain on VHF and UHF measured exactly as spec'd. The KT-200 on high VHF is about 25 dB and on UHF about 21 dB with no filtering.


Noise Figure

KT-200 High VHF 1.2 to 1.7 dB, UHF 1.3 dB to 1.6 dB
Televes 560331 High VHF 3.1 dB to 3.3 dB, UHF 2.1 dB to 2.5 dB

I expected that the Televes would have a slightly higher NF because of the bandpass filters. I think this is about as good as you can expect from a consumer level product. The KT-200 has no filtering except for FM. I doubt that anyone would notice the difference in NF. The filtering might be more important depending on your local RF environment. If your RF environment is low like mine is, lower NF might be more important.

Standard NF disclaimer: I don't make any claims for perfectly accurate NF measurements. There are a lot of things that can affect the measurements and I can't account for them all. They're in the ballpark and the KT200 is lower than the 560331.

FM Filtering

See attached displays for the FM Filters. I don't like either of these. The KT-200 cuts too far into channel 6 and the 560331 doesn't cut at all into channel 6 and passes a lot of the FM band. If it were up to me, I'd set the attenuation at 4-5 dB at 88 MHz. That would have minimal impact on channel 6 and maximize FM attenuation.

I took a stab at measuring 3rd Order Intercept Point (IP3). It's not clear how the 560331's AGC is affecting this measurement. The best I can tell is that the 560331 is 2-3 dB lower than the KT-200. It doesn't seem to be an issue.

VHF Gain/Bandpass











UHF Gain/Bandpass











KT-200 FM Bnad











560331 FM Band


----------



## Primestar31

My Televes 560383 Kit (560331 preamp) Mini-Review and Comparison to the 2015 model Kitztech KT-200, that has NO internal filters.

I'm going to borrow your title, and post my findings between those preamps. In my case, I think the Televes 560383 kit (560331 preamp) clearly wins.

Readings are using a Televes H30D3 meter, which is a cable tv meter, so some adjacent channels have the ">" (greater than) symbol as this meter can't demodulate the signal to get MER and BER, but only measure the straight RF. It's a fairly cool night in mid-Michigan, about 50f, but fairly clear, only a little clouds. Maybe 7-10mph steady wind. Readings taken within a short period of time. Just enough to get them for the Televes, swap out the injector and preamp, and take the Kitztech KT-200 readings. NOTHING else in the chain was changed between swapping them.

So, on these readings, BOTH VHF (AntennaCraft Y-10 7-13 aimed at WJRT RF12) & UHF (HDB91x for ALL my UHF stations but aimed at WFFC-LD RF17 (10Kw at 32 miles, I'm about 5 or so miles outside their furthest contour, but it's more or less the center of my UHF station arc, & the lowest power station I actually WANT) antennas are being combined & fed through a UVSJ into the respective preamps. In other words, both VHF & UHF bands are being preamp'ed.

My antennas are up about 25-27ft on a 2" well pipe mast. Everything is properly grounded to the house ground. I do have issues with multipath due to trees and fluttering leaves, but the Televes adjusts for that. First on the LEFT are the newest readings from the Televes, on the RIGHT are the Kitztech KT-200. These are thumbnail images, so you need to click on them to enlarge them if you want to see more detail;


----------



## Calaveras

Primestar31 said:


> I'm going to borrow your title, and post my findings between those preamps. In my case, I think the Televes 560383 kit (560331 preamp) clearly wins.


What I'm seeing in your displays is only signal strength. Since the Televes has 10 dB more gain than the KT-200 on UHF the signals should be 10 dB stronger. This seems to hold true for the stations I looked at. The KT-200 has 3 dB higher gain on VHF than the 560331. Your signal strength is higher on RF12 with the KT-200. 

There are no winners or losers in your test, simply differences in gain. Higher gain does not equal more stations or higher S/N. Maybe you could post a table of SNRs (Signal Quality) from your TV. That would be more informative.


----------



## Primestar31

Calaveras said:


> Maybe you could post a table of SNRs (Signal Quality) from your TV. That would be more informative.


My present tv's are TCL Roku sets. All they have are bar graphs, which aren't accurate with the present 10.0.0 firmware. You've already in another post also put down the fact of my Tivo Signal Strength and SNR readings I posted, which is the only other thing I could post, and those aren't all on a single page.

Is there any sort of antenna meter I could get, where you would accept the readings? If so, let me know.


----------



## Calaveras

Primestar31 said:


> You've already in another post also put down the fact of my Tivo Signal Strength and SNR readings I posted, which is the only other thing I could post, and those aren't all on a single page.
> 
> Is there any sort of antenna meter I could get, where you would accept the readings? If so, let me know.


The TiVo SNR number is fine. Unfortunately TiVo chose not to provide real signal strength on their Diagnostic screen but instead they call Signal Quality Signal Strength. Sometimes I think manufacturers go out of their way to provide useless and confusing information.


----------



## avs2099

Calaveras said:


> The TiVo SNR number is fine. Unfortunately TiVo chose not to provide real signal strength on their Diagnostic screen but instead they call Signal Quality Signal Strength. Sometimes I think manufacturers go out of their way to provide useless and confusing information.


I think Signal Strength is simply SNR times 2.5


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

I'm going to need a new receiver/tuner for my antenna setup as my Vizio TV does not have a tuner. 

We have not gotten 3.0 yet in the Chicago Milwaukee Market but it's on the way. I want to get a tuner that has a good quality signal meter and 3.0 capable. Is there such a tuner? I would like to be able to see a display at least this good, (Toshiba): 










I hear the HDHR is good but I don't want to use a computer to watch TV...


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

Primestar31 said:


> My Televes 560383 Kit (560331 preamp) Mini-Review and Comparison to the 2015 model Kitztech KT-200, that has NO internal filters.
> 
> I'm going to borrow your title, and post my findings between those preamps. In my case, I think the Televes 560383 kit (560331 preamp) clearly wins.
> 
> Readings are using a Televes H30D3 meter, which is a cable tv meter, so some adjacent channels have the ">" (greater than) symbol as this meter can't demodulate the signal to get MER and BER, but only measure the straight RF. It's a fairly cool night in mid-Michigan, about 50f, but fairly clear, only a little clouds. Maybe 7-10mph steady wind. Readings taken within a short period of time. Just enough to get them for the Televes, swap out the injector and preamp, and take the Kitztech KT-200 readings. NOTHING else in the chain was changed between swapping them.
> 
> So, on these readings, BOTH VHF (AntennaCraft Y-10 7-13 aimed at WJRT RF12) & UHF (HDB91x for ALL my UHF stations but aimed at WFFC-LD RF17 (10Kw at 32 miles, I'm about 5 or so miles outside their furthest contour, but it's more or less the center of my UHF station arc, & the lowest power station I actually WANT) antennas are being combined & fed through a UVSJ into the respective preamps. In other words, both VHF & UHF bands are being preamp'ed.
> 
> My antennas are up about 25-27ft on a 2" well pipe mast. Everything is properly grounded to the house ground. I do have issues with multipath due to trees and fluttering leaves, but the Televes adjusts for that. First are the newest readings from the Televes;
> 
> View attachment 3132762
> 
> 
> View attachment 3132763
> 
> 
> View attachment 3132764
> 
> 
> View attachment 3132765
> 
> 
> View attachment 3132766
> 
> 
> View attachment 3132767
> 
> 
> View attachment 3132768
> 
> 
> View attachment 3132769
> 
> 
> View attachment 3132770
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following are the 2015 Kitztech KT-200-Coax preamp readings:
> 
> View attachment 3132784
> 
> 
> View attachment 3132786
> 
> 
> View attachment 3132787
> 
> 
> View attachment 3132788
> 
> 
> View attachment 3132789
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> View attachment 3132790
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> View attachment 3132791
> 
> 
> View attachment 3132792
> 
> 
> View attachment 3132793


How do you get those perfect screenshots like that? Where is the function for that on the H30? Right now the best I can do is take a photo of my H30 screen and crop it and straighten it.










Also it would be nice if you could arrange your screenshots next to each other for comparatives. I mean side-by-side for each Channel. Going back and forth between one post and the other too much is lost. I don't know how to do that with your screenshots though. 😕


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## Primestar31

ChiwaukeeOTA said:


> How do you get those perfect screenshots like that? Where is the function for that on the H30? Right now the best I can do is take a photo of my H30 screen and crop it and straighten it.
> 
> View attachment 3134848
> 
> 
> Also it would be nice if you could arrange your screenshots next to each other for comparatives. I mean side-by-side for each Channel. Going back and forth between one post and the other too much is lost. I don't know how to do that with your screenshots though. 😕


It has a remote web app function. Meaning, it's plugged into my router with a standard ethernet cable. I then bring up Firefox, and type the H30 meters IP address into the address line, and it comes up. I then just do a right-click "Save Image As", and save the screenshots to a folder.

p.s. I rearranged the screen shots above. This is what I think you wanted? It's the best the forum can do.


----------



## LaserBeamSC

ChiwaukeeOTA said:


> I'm going to need a new receiver/tuner for my antenna setup as my Vizio TV does not have a tuner.
> 
> We have not gotten 3.0 yet in the Chicago Milwaukee Market but it's on the way. I want to get a tuner that has a good quality signal meter and 3.0 capable. Is there such a tuner? I would like to be able to see a display at least this good, (Toshiba):
> 
> View attachment 3134844
> 
> 
> I hear the HDHR is good but I don't want to use a computer to watch TV...


Hey Chi, I’m with you on that. My new Sony X900H has a great tuner and easy to get to diagnostics screen with signal strength meter and SNR on 1.0 but the 3.0 diagnostics only has the the signal strength meter. I can live with that awhile but like you I’m searching for the perfect 3.0 tuner box. I’ve read and watched many reviews and still haven’t pulled the trigger on anything.


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## johnny antenna

The 4K HDHomeRuns are the only standalone ATSC 3.0 tuners that are shipping now. They have Sony tuners in them. They have a development version that has more detailed information. 

ATSC 3.0 is a totally different animal than ATSC 1.0. Some of the terminology you're used to doesn't apply to ATSC 3.0.


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## ChiwaukeeOTA

johnny antenna said:


> The 4K HDHomeRuns are the only standalone ATSC 3.0 tuners that are shipping now. They have Sony tuners in them. They have a development version that has more detailed information.
> 
> ATSC 3.0 is a totally different animal than ATSC 1.0. Some of the terminology you're used to doesn't apply to ATSC 3.0.


Thanks for that information. Do you absolutely have to have a computer hooked up to use the HDHR ? Or only to view the diagnostic screen??


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## RaggedEdge

ChiwaukeeOTA said:


> Thanks for that information. Do you absolutely have to have a computer hooked up to use the HDHR ? Or only to view the diagnostic screen??


Only for diagnostics. It does have to be hardwired into your network.


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## tylerSC

Too bad Winegard no longer manufactures its 8800 UHF 8bay antenna. It is reportedly better optimized for the new repack frequencies on lower UHF. I can attest it is a strong performer and glad I still have one available to use. Does very well with fringe signals I have on RF18 and RF19. It can also pull in High VHF in strong signal areas. But most of their legacy antennas are no longer made, although they do have some of the combo antennas for High VHF and UHF. Maybe some company could consider redesigning for the new repack spectrum.


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## ChiwaukeeOTA

tylerSC said:


> Too bad Winegard no longer manufactures its 8800 UHF 8bay antenna. It is reportedly better optimized for the new repack frequencies on lower UHF. I can attest it is a strong performer and glad I still have one available to use. Does very well with fringe signals I have on RF18 and RF19. It can also pull in High VHF in strong signal areas. But most of their legacy antennas are no longer made, although they do have some of the combo antennas for High VHF and UHF. Maybe some company could consider redesigning for the new repack spectrum.


That's interesting, I'm starting to experiment with the HD 8800 right now and bought two of them from Summit source about two weeks ago we just put them together. Everybody I talk to claims it's not a good at performer as the HD primer claims. Also I can tell you it's fairly flimsy. Mainly in the elements. The way they fold up are difficult to get them to lock without bending them and then they don't lock.


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## Gibson_s

rabbit73 said:


> I find it interesting that the box says:
> The pattern scale for the 2435 isn't marked; the difference probably isn't that great.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That might make a difference.
> That's OK; it's a zero voltage point in the top half-wave section. It will help to protect the front end of your FM tuner from static discharge if the mast is grounded.
> 
> It looks very much like holl-ands'.
> FM Double-Hoop H-POL OMNI
> An Omni sacrifices gain for an omni pattern. If you need more gain in a certain direction, you will have to use a Yagi.
> 
> Sounds like it's doing OK.


I bought this antenna to try to get a more distant but "local" station. It seems I made a mistake in not getting a directional one. It's just indoors right now and I noticed my rabbit ears basically get more stations than it on my older receivers. I tried on my newer receiver across the house and I noticed it indeed did work, cleaned up some nearer stations for zero static. Before I had to keep changing the rabbit ears for certain stations to get rid of the static. As for the more distant station, it did nothing to clean it up.

I did learn something though, the side of the house where it did nothing I have my computer setup, my breaker is right below and my AC unit is across the wall, outside. The other side of the house, it worked. I'm assuming there was a LOT of interference. Now I'm thinking that installing it outside in the clear might actually get me that station. It's around 50 miles away.


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## Prototype3a

I FINALLY got my second antenna mast up on the house so I'm trying to decide how I can maximize my chances of picking up WUNL. 

For a while now,my evil plan was to try combining two Stellar Labs 30-237 as I already have one and from what I've read, vertically stacking them should make them reject the signals out of Roanoke more. 

I assume everyone forgot but I live in Christiansburg, VA so WUNL is essentially due south and the stations in Roanoke are essentially East. WUNL is weak and there are several strong stations in Roanoke that are frequency adjacent. 

Anyone have any ideas? Suggestions?


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## tylerSC

Prototype3a said:


> I FINALLY got my second antenna mast up on the house so I'm trying to decide how I can maximize my chances of picking up WUNL.
> 
> For a while now,my evil plan was to try combining two Stellar Labs 30-237 as I already have one and from what I've read, vertically stacking them should make them reject the signals out of Roanoke more.
> 
> I assume everyone forgot but I live in Christiansburg, VA so WUNL is essentially due south and the stations in Roanoke are essentially East. WUNL is weak and there are several strong stations in Roanoke that are frequency adjacent.
> 
> Anyone have any ideas? Suggestions?


Will you be using a preamp? And do you receive any of the other Greensboro stations?


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## Prototype3a

Ch12 comes in great but I have little interest in the programming on that channel.

I have a KT200 here but I'm honestly starting to wonder if I somehow got a dud as any time I put it inline with basically anything, things just get worse.


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## avs2099

Prototype3a said:


> I FINALLY got my second antenna mast up on the house so I'm trying to decide how I can maximize my chances of picking up WUNL.
> 
> For a while now,my evil plan was to try combining two Stellar Labs 30-237 as I already have one and from what I've read, vertically stacking them should make them reject the signals out of Roanoke more.
> 
> I assume everyone forgot but I live in Christiansburg, VA so WUNL is essentially due south and the stations in Roanoke are essentially East. WUNL is weak and there are several strong stations in Roanoke that are frequency adjacent.
> 
> Anyone have any ideas? Suggestions?











AVANT X programmable multiband amplifier for terrestrial signals, with AutoLTE


AVANT X programmable multiband amplifier for terrestrial signals, with AutoLTE




www.televes.com


----------



## Primestar31

Prototype3a said:


> Ch12 comes in great but I have little interest in the programming on that channel.
> 
> I have a KT200 here but I'm honestly starting to wonder if I somehow got a dud as any time I put it inline with basically anything, things just get worse.


It could simply be pre-amping your channels to too high a signal level. However, IF you have a meter, check the power inserter for 12 volts dc output. Make SURE it's there, as it's a possible it's defective. You also can't have anything between the power inserter and the preamp, UNLESS whatever it is is "power-passing". Many splitters will NOT pass power, but others will. Those ones will be marked as to power passing, and what leg they do so.


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## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> I FINALLY got my second antenna mast up on the house so I'm trying to decide how I can maximize my chances of picking up WUNL.
> 
> For a while now,my evil plan was to try combining two Stellar Labs 30-237 as I already have one and from what I've read, vertically stacking them should make them reject the signals out of Roanoke more.


Hello again, Prototype3a. I see you are still trying for WUNL. I rate it as very difficult, but perhaps not impossible.

For others trying to help Prototype3a, here is some background information, starting with a recent signal report:
RabbitEars.Info

As you can see, WUNL on RF33 has adjacent channel interference from W32EW on 32 and WSLS on 34. WSLS is 76 dB stronger than WUNL and W32EW is 52 dB stronger than WUNL. A tuner is not expected to be able to reject adjacent channel interference any greater than 33 dB.

In an earlier post Prototype3a mentioned that he was able to receive WUNL when his house shielded his antenna from the very strong local channels.
The Official AVS Antenna and Related Hardware Topic!


> My issue is that I'm trying to pick up a weak signal in a sea of strong ones. I found that I could get it with the antenna in the yard but not on the roof of the house. So my theory has been that the house is shielding the antenna from all the "noise" from the stronger stations in the other direction.


Using a very directional antenna will make the local channels much weaker when the antenna is aimed at WUNL, but that might not be enough attenuation of the local signals.

I think that horizontal stacking will give a more directional beam than vertical stacking, but that also might not be enough. An extreme solution, if he can't again use the house as a shield, would be to put one Yagi with a preamp in a shielded enclosure to reject as much of the local signals as possible, like this:










However, there will still be reflections of the local signals from objects in front of the antenna.

Your location is in a dead spot for WUNL:










The terrain blocks the direct signal:










Using different terrain profile software:










As I said, difficult but perhaps not impossible.


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## Prototype3a

Using the house as a shield isn't a "long term" solution as it would have to be cantilevered pretty far out to "look around the corner" of the house and still be shielded. We're talking about a ~10ft horizontal mast or so...

I remember someone linking to something about connecting the two antennas with a tuned loop of coax or something along those lines....


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## rabbit73

Prototype3a said:


> Using the house as a shield isn't a "long term" solution as it would have to be cantilevered pretty far out to "look around the corner" of the house and still be shielded. We're talking about a ~10ft horizontal mast or so...


If you reject all possible solutions without trying them, you will still have the problem.


> I remember someone linking to something about connecting the two antennas with a tuned loop of coax or something along those lines....


That sounds like a 1/4 wave stub to attenuate a signal causing interference. On the Canadian forum, majortom has done some experiments like that.
ON - Hamilton, Stoney Creek, Brantford, Haldimand

Splitters, Attenuators, Filters, Diplexers, Other Signal...

Even a Tin Lee filter engineer would have a difficult time designing a filter for WUNL.
Tin Lee Electronics :: Home


----------



## Adam Buchholz

TelevesTech said:


> View attachment 3125348
> 
> The right product for one feed would be the one input, P/N 560383, or in a fringe situation with two antennas, use two individual preamplifiers and combine after, once the aerial feeds have been preamped and the NF of the system established.


Hi @TelevesTech I'm considering a 560383, but per your comment above, I have some questions.

When precisely would you consider the NF of a system "established"?

I'm in a fringe situation with two antennas, one for VHF and the other for UHF. Your recommendation seems to run counter to the diagram you linked to from the manual; isn't it generally a best practice to combine two antennas via a UVSJ as close as possible to the antenna source -- to balance the band, and then let the 560383 selectively amplify downstream? That's at least what the diagram suggests, but your comments on NF becoming established have me questioning my knowledge of that. 

One preamp obviously eliminates the need for two separate preamps and two long coax runs, but I'm curious what's best? Another option I'm considering is putting the preamp before the UVSJ (instead of after) and letting power pass on the UHF side. In either scenario, I thought to do the combination and band balancing as close as possible to the antenna source.


----------



## TelevesTech

Adam Buchholz said:


> Hi @TelevesTech I'm considering a 560383, but per your comment above, I have some questions.
> 
> When precisely would you consider the NF of a system "established"?
> 
> I'm in a fringe situation with two antennas, one for VHF and the other for UHF. Your recommendation seems to run counter to the diagram you linked to from the manual; isn't it generally a best practice to combine two antennas via a UVSJ as close as possible to the antenna source -- to balance the band, and then let the 560383 selectively amplify downstream? That's at least what the diagram suggests, but your comments on NF becoming established have me questioning my knowledge of that.
> 
> One preamp obviously eliminates the need for two separate preamps and two long coax runs, but I'm curious what's best? Another option I'm considering is putting the preamp before the UVSJ (instead of after) and letting power pass on the UHF side. In either scenario, I thought to do the combination and band balancing as close as possible to the antenna source.


You are fine combining with a diplexer and then using the single input preamp P/N 560383. The dual input would not be recommended in this scenario since you don't have overlapping band antennas and there's no need to incur in the insertion loss of a broadband combination.


----------



## jspENC

ChiwaukeeOTA said:


> That's interesting, I'm starting to experiment with the HD 8800 right now and bought two of them from Summit source about two weeks ago we just put them together. Everybody I talk to claims it's not a good at performer as the HD primer claims. Also I can tell you it's fairly flimsy. Mainly in the elements. The way they fold up are difficult to get them to lock without bending them and then they don't lock.
> View attachment 3137184


I have had this antenna for 15 years. It still works well, but I had the same issue with a few of the bowties drooping. I used needle nose pliers to tighten the rivot. Also notice the feed line there on the center left is too close. that will short out the antenna. I had to carefully bend mine further apart like what you see on the right side feed. Also if the feeds that connect the bows together is not just right, it can loosen the bow ties. I have tried other similar antennas, but this one did the best for me. I can get stations from over 60 miles out with this turned backwards, and get stations from the front side at 100% 41 miles away. Other antennas had breakup on certain channels in windy weather. This will get VHF, but when lightning is around, it isn't good enough, so I added a VHF setup.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

jspENC said:


> I have had this antenna for 15 years. It still works well, but I had the same issue with a few of the bowties drooping. I used needle nose pliers to tighten the rivot. Also notice the feed line there on the center left is too close. that will short out the antenna. I had to carefully bend mine further apart like what you see on the right side feed. Also if the feeds that connect the bows together is not just right, it can loosen the bow ties. I have tried other similar antennas, but this one did the best for me. I can get stations from over 60 miles out with this turned backwards, and get stations from the front side at 100% 41 miles away. Other antennas had breakup on certain channels in windy weather. This will get VHF, but when lightning is around, it isn't good enough, so I added a VHF setup.


Thanks for that information. I do plan to space those feeds apart, way too close. And I like your idea about crimping the rivets. I thought about just getting in position and using zip ties to keep them in place. I just can't believe it's so flimsy. Winegard really disappoints me. Noisy preamps, poor build quality (8200, 7698s with the UHF boom broken off and the fact that they haven't put out a repack antenna design and even skipped over the digital transition redesign just doesn't seem like a very Progressive company..


----------



## Gibson_s

This is going to be a shot in the dark... but my buddy has a cheap antenna (that seems to be pointed to the heavens  I think, anyway, I've never used a plastic antenna) and I'm wondering if anyone knows (or has a guess) what the make or model is.

It's going to rain the next 3 days so I'm not going on a ladder to find out right this minute, wondering if the experts can tell me what it is or what it looks like. He said it has a built in amp... but he's not getting a VHF station 6 miles away with it (he's actually blocked by that tree) and most likely that's just a UHF antenna.

I was pretty shocked by the pic he sent me of his sloppy installation and his abandoned satellite dish not getting taken down when he has such a nice house. The plan is to go over there and help him take down that dish and repoint or decide if he needs a new antenna. There are 2 stations on High VHF so he needs something with VHF elements on it.


----------



## Primestar31

Gibson_s said:


> This is going to be a shot in the dark... but my buddy has a cheap antenna (that seems to be pointed to the heavens  I think, anyway, I've never used a plastic antenna) and I'm wondering if anyone knows (or has a guess) what the make or model is.
> 
> It's going to rain the next 3 days so I'm not going on a ladder to find out right this minute, wondering if the experts can tell me what it is or what it looks like. He said it has a built in amp... but he's not getting a VHF station 6 miles away with it (he's actually blocked by that tree) and most likely that's just a UHF antenna.
> 
> I was pretty shocked by the pic he sent me of his sloppy installation and his abandoned satellite dish not getting taken down when he has such a nice house. The plan is to go over there and help him take down that dish and repoint or decide if he needs a new antenna. There are 2 stations on High VHF so he needs something with VHF elements on it.


Is that station HIGH Vhf, or LOW vhf? Here's a stealth model if you need that, UHF and High vhf. You pull out the dipoles on the side for VHF: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Televes-Televes-Dinova-BOSS-Antenna/1002745730

Or if he needs a bit more range, there's this one (Lowes is out of stock, so here's another good vendor):


https://www.nesselectronics.com/products/tev148881?_pos=10&_sid=0bfbe5035&_ss=r



This one has ALL bands: https://www.nesselectronics.com/products/tev148381?_pos=1&_sid=3ad51d6c3&_ss=r


----------



## Gibson_s

Primestar31 said:


> Is that station HIGH Vhf, or LOW vhf? Here's a stealth model if you need that, UHF and High vhf. You pull out the dipoles on the side for VHF: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Televes-Televes-Dinova-BOSS-Antenna/1002745730
> 
> Or if he needs a bit more range, there's this one (Lowes is out of stock, so here's another good vendor):
> 
> 
> https://www.nesselectronics.com/products/tev148881?_pos=10&_sid=0bfbe5035&_ss=r
> 
> 
> 
> This one has ALL bands: https://www.nesselectronics.com/products/tev148381?_pos=1&_sid=3ad51d6c3&_ss=r


RF 7 and 9 are the VHF stations with 9 being the problem station as it's opposite of the main towers. I don't have experience with these strange shaped antennas and no clue if it's any good. Also it's quite expensive at $140 CDN (everything is more expensive here).


----------



## Primestar31

Gibson_s said:


> Also it's quite expensive at $140 CDN (everything is more expensive here).


It's a one time cost, versus paying for cable or satellite forever. It'll likely pay for itself in just a few months, even with the higher cost of being in Canada. Either of those RF channels are HIGH vhf, so you'd need a combo high vhf and UHF antenna. The Televes ones are good, but since you haven't posted a Rabbitears signal report for your friend, we'd only be guessing what antenna will work FOR SURE. RabbitEars.Info


----------



## Gibson_s

Primestar31 said:


> It's a one time cost, versus paying for cable or satellite forever. It'll likely pay for itself in just a few months, even with the higher cost of being in Canada. Either of those RF channels are HIGH vhf, so you'd need a combo high vhf and UHF antenna. The Televes ones are good, but since you haven't posted a Rabbitears signal report for your friend, we'd only be guessing what antenna will work FOR SURE. RabbitEars.Info


I agree with you about the cost but I can't spend his money for him, that's probably 3x what he paid for what he has now. Detroit is NW and this station is due South, which is part of the problem. He also has a long cable run and I can't tell if that 20ft of coax rolled up is part of his antenna build or not. In a few days I'll see it in person.

Here's his analysis, RF 9 is 7 miles away in the wrong direction, he gets it sometimes and not others.





__





RabbitEars.Info


RabbitEars, where you can learn all about local, over-the-air TV channels.




www.rabbitears.info


----------



## Primestar31

So, he keeps the antenna he has now, and adds a VHF high antenna pointed at that RF9 station. This antenna is good: https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs...al-antenna-vhf/dp/48Y8141?st=stellar labs vhf

You'll need one of these to combine them: https://www.nesselectronics.com/products/skysbuvsj?_pos=1&_sid=f86c41150&_ss=r


----------



## rabbit73

Gibson_s said:


> This is going to be a shot in the dark... but my buddy has a cheap antenna (that seems to be pointed to the heavens  I think, anyway, I've never used a plastic antenna) and I'm wondering if anyone knows (or has a guess) what the make or model is.












Thank you for the photo. That does look weird.


> He said it has a built in amp... but he's not getting a VHF station 6 miles away with it (he's actually blocked by that tree) and most likely that's just a UHF antenna.


The flat antennas are usually pretty good for UHF signals in a strong signal area, but don't do as well with VHF signals. Maybe you will be able to tell us the make and model number after you have been there. It is possible that the preamp is being overloaded.

Trees can be a problem; they block TV signals.


> The plan is to go over there and help him take down that dish and repoint or decide if he needs a new antenna. There are 2 stations on High VHF so he needs something with VHF elements on it.


It's OK to use the coax if it is in good condition, but don't use any of the other satellite devices; they might not be suitable for OTA.


----------



## rabbit73

Gibson_s said:


> Detroit is NW and this station is due South, which is part of the problem. He also has a long cable run and I can't tell if that 20ft of coax rolled up is part of his antenna build or not. In a few days I'll see it in person.


The coax shouldn't be any longer than necessary. If the preamp is in the antenna itself, it will make the signals stronger before the loss in the coax. If the preamp is separate and iindoors, there will be signal loss in the coax from the antenna before amplification, which is less desirable.


> Here's his analysis, RF 9 is 7 miles away in the wrong direction, he gets it sometimes and not others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RabbitEars.Info
> 
> 
> RabbitEars, where you can learn all about local, over-the-air TV channels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rabbitears.info


Thank you for the signal report.










If you use a separate VHF-High dipole for 7 and 9, it doesn't matter that they are in opposite directions, because a dipole is bi-directonal:



















To keep costs down, you might be able to combine his flat antenna for UHF with a VHF-High dipole for 7 and 9 using a UVSJ UHF-VHF combiner as suggested by Primestar31.

You might be able to use the Antennas Direct VHF Kit which also contains a combiner.
VHF Kit: VHF Antenna Reception

https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss...WBSSP*MTYyNDcyODQ2Ni4xMS4xLjE2MjQ3Mjg4MDAuNjA.










If the dipole isn't in the clear, you might need more antenna gain than it can provide for 7 and 9.


----------



## Gibson_s

These are dipoles that aren't extended, right? I couldn't see them in person but I zoomed in with my camera on my smartphone and took a pic. Didn't see them until I got home and looked closely at the pic. He's going to feel stupid when I tell him.










Equipped like this with VHF dipoles?









He had a distribution amplifier after a pretty long cable run, so he's not doing the signal that much justice, when unplugged, he gets nothing... Antenna is also installed at about 14ft whereby he's surrounded by houses and trees that are taller. He's still way too low for a mounting point. He has a 20ft ladder I told him he should mount at around 16ft with a 4 - 5ft pole with a preamp and see. 

Seeing those are most likely VHF dipoles not extended, I think that's a game changer right there.


----------



## TelevesTech

Gibson_s said:


> These are dipoles that aren't extended, right? I couldn't see them in person but I zoomed in with my camera on my smartphone and took a pic. Didn't see them until I got home and looked closely at the pic. He's going to feel stupid when I tell him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Equipped like this with VHF dipoles?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He had a distribution amplifier after a pretty long cable run, so he's not doing the signal that much justice, when unplugged, he gets nothing... Antenna is also installed at about 14ft whereby he's surrounded by houses and trees that are taller. He's still way too low for a mounting point. He has a 20ft ladder I told him he should mount at around 16ft with a 4 - 5ft pole with a preamp and see.
> 
> Seeing those are most likely VHF dipoles not extended, I think that's a game changer right there.


Those two are not the same antenna


----------



## Gibson_s

TelevesTech said:


> Those two are not the same antenna


I realize that, just saying that his appears to have dipoles that aren't extended, with the other as an example of a so equipped VHF dipole.


----------



## Ratman

Gibson_s said:


> He's going to feel stupid when I tell him.


Give him a call and have him to give it a try extending the dipoles (if possible). 
It's not about being "stupid".


----------



## LMckin

Does anybody know where you can purchase a VHF/UHF Combiner i have look up UVSJ VHF/UHF Joiner it doesn't look like no body has those any more.


----------



## Primestar31

LMckin said:


> Does anybody know where you can purchase a VHF/UHF Combiner i have look up UVSJ VHF/UHF Joiner it doesn't look like no body has those any more.


They are getting pretty hard to find on the older versions. Here's one that can work for you, for UHF and HIGH-Vhf: Weatherproof MATV Antenna Combiner/Joiner/Separator, Combines UHF/VHF Antennas 9311554572365 | eBay

Note: this one is power-pass on BOTH sides. IF you need power-pass on only ONE side to power a pre-amp, it includes instructions on how to clip one side of the coil to remove power from the other side. Weatherproof MATV Antenna Combiner/Joiner/Separator, Combines UHF/VHF Antennas 9311554572365 | eBay


----------



## LMckin

Primestar31 said:


> They are getting pretty hard to find on the older versions. Here's one that can work for you, for UHF and HIGH-Vhf: Weatherproof MATV Antenna Combiner/Joiner/Separator, Combines UHF/VHF Antennas 9311554572365 | eBay
> 
> Note: this one is power-pass on BOTH sides. IF you need power-pass on only ONE side to power a pre-amp, it includes instructions on how to clip one side of the coil to remove power from the other side. Weatherproof MATV Antenna Combiner/Joiner/Separator, Combines UHF/VHF Antennas 9311554572365 | eBay



Thanks


----------



## Calaveras

Primestar31 said:


> Note: this one is power-pass on BOTH sides. IF you need power-pass on only ONE side to power a pre-amp, it includes instructions on how to clip one side of the coil to remove power from the other side. Weatherproof MATV Antenna Combiner/Joiner/Separator, Combines UHF/VHF Antennas 9311554572365 | eBay


You can get a DC block for this and not have to modify the diplexer.


----------



## Primestar31

Calaveras said:


> You can get a DC block for this and not have to modify the diplexer.


Correct, that will work also, and is probably a better way to go for the average person that can't solder.


----------



## Prototype3a

LMckin said:


> Does anybody know where you can purchase a VHF/UHF Combiner i have look up UVSJ VHF/UHF Joiner it doesn't look like no body has those any more.


AFAIK, The Antennas Direct combiner is the only one out there still being made and worth buying.








Amazon.com: Antennas Direct VHF / UHF Antenna Combiner, Indoor, Attic, Outdoor Use, All-weather Mounting Hardware, Adjustable Mast Clamp, Black - EU385CF-1S : Everything Else


Buy Antennas Direct VHF / UHF Antenna Combiner, Indoor, Attic, Outdoor Use, All-weather Mounting Hardware, Adjustable Mast Clamp, Black - EU385CF-1S: Everything Else - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com


----------



## Neil L

I happen to have a few of these that I bought a while back and never got around to using. If anyone is interested, contact me via private message, and we can work out the details.


----------



## Neil L

Also found a few of these Blonder Tongue taps in my parts box. Must have got them by mistake because I don't even know how they would be used. Anyone have any thoughts on when/how to use a line tap?


----------



## tylerSC

LMckin said:


> Does anybody know where you can purchase a VHF/UHF Combiner i have look up UVSJ VHF/UHF Joiner it doesn't look like no body has those any more.


Yes the UVSJ is now hard to find. Used to be sold at Radioshack but their current remaining website no longer offers them. Still sold by Antennas Direct, Stellar Labs, and the version from Ness Electronics referenced above. I keep hoping Channel Master would introduce a new version, since they have recently added a FM trap and LTE filter.


----------



## rabbit73

Neil L said:


> Anyone have any thoughts on when/how to use a line tap?


Most home distribution systems use splitters. Large commercial distribution systems usually use taps.

A system that uses taps starts with an amplifier that has a high output level (perhaps +35 dBmV).

The taps for each TV location are connected in a series daisy chain manner. The taps that are close to the amplifier have a high tap loss to deliver about -1 to +10 dBmV to the TV. Taps that are further down the line, where the signals are now weaker, have a lower tap loss to also deliver about -1 to +10 dBmV to the TV.















https://www.blondertongue.com/page/media/Distribution-Design-Whitepaper.pdf

https://www.atvresearch.com/techinfo/drop tap and home run designing.pdf


----------



## Neil L

Thanks *rabbit73* for the info! Still doubt that I'll ever have any use for the line taps, so if anyone on here can use them, please let me know.


----------



## Gibson_s

If I'm getting Toledo FM stations with some static indoors (10ft coax), in my closet... with the Stellar Labs 2435 will I get the stations clearly if I mount it outside with about 40ft of coax? Looking for an educated guess... Closest Toledo, OH TV transmitter on my Rabbit ears analysis is about 47 miles away. No clue where their FM transmitters are located. Station I'm looking to get clearly is WIOT, 104.7 FM, if anyone knows it. Gotta look out for more Rock stations.






RabbitEars.Info


RabbitEars, where you can learn all about local, over-the-air TV channels.




www.rabbitears.info





Don't really want to go through the trouble if I'm not going to get that station clearly. I'm sure it's difficult to say with so little info I have to go on. Will the "in the clear signal" be greater than the loss in coax run?


----------



## Ratman

Get ~40' of coax and make a temporary run to test with antenna outdoors in the approximate (intended) location.


----------



## rabbit73

Gibson_s said:


> Closest Toledo, OH TV transmitter on my Rabbit ears analysis is about 47 miles away. No clue where their FM transmitters are located. Station I'm looking to get clearly is WIOT, 104.7 FM, if anyone knows it. Gotta look out for more Rock stations.


Here is an estimated FM report based on your TV report:
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/14a124cff4/Radar-FM.png










The report might be out of date. You can do your own FM report here:
FM Fool - FM Signal Locater

FM reports don't link like TV reports. I had to derive the link.


----------



## Gibson_s

48.5 miles at 2 Edge... yikes. Don't think it's going to work. Fuzzy FM might be the best I can do at that distance and blocked twice.


----------



## rabbit73

Gibson_s said:


> 48.5 miles at 2 Edge... yikes. Don't think it's going to work. Fuzzy FM might be the best I can do at that distance and blocked twice.


WIOT - Wikipedia

Listen live:
104.7 WIOT | iHeartRadio

radio-locator
WIOT-FM 104.7 MHz - Toledo, OH

WIOT-FM Radio Station Coverage Map

FAQ
Coverage Maps FAQ


----------



## Gibson_s

Well, I got WIOT near perfect, just a tiny bit of noise to tell you that it's FM, was really happy to see this and went outside to route the coax neater, singing "18 and Life" by Skid Row that was just on... came inside and it had static again. I obviously jostled something .

I got tired of being bitten by mosquitoes so I went in and didn't bother messing with it. All the local channels are crystal clear, before I had to keep adjusting my rabbit ears for certain stations.

After seeing the analysis of WIOT I figured I wasn't going to get it, hard to beat physics with an omni-directional FM antenna. I'll try again another day to duplicate the almost perfect reception I got before I messed with the neatness of the coax run. I guess it doesn't pay to be neat.

I really cleaned up my local reception, but Toledo with the 2 Edge is probably a weak signal. There are some improvements I can make to fight for the station... we'll see. That's all I'm doing today.


----------



## Calaveras

Gibson_s said:


> If I'm getting Toledo FM stations with some static indoors (10ft coax), in my closet... with the Stellar Labs 2435 will I get the stations clearly if I mount it outside with about 40ft of coax? Looking for an educated guess... Closest Toledo, OH TV transmitter on my Rabbit ears analysis is about 47 miles away. No clue where their FM transmitters are located. Station I'm looking to get clearly is WIOT, 104.7 FM, if anyone knows it. Gotta look out for more Rock stations.
> 
> Don't really want to go through the trouble if I'm not going to get that station clearly. I'm sure it's difficult to say with so little info I have to go on. Will the "in the clear signal" be greater than the loss in coax run?


You can find everything you want to know about a station using the FCC FM Query:









FM Query Broadcast Station Search


AM Query FM Query TV Query Audio Division Video Division Search for radio station information in the FM broadcast band (88 MHz to 108 MHz). You may request one-line-per-record list output, or more detailed "query" output. The data files used for this query are updated each morning. Please refer...




www.fcc.gov





The increase in loss for 40' of RG-6 over 10' is 0.5 dB at 105 MHz. No one is going to be able to hear the difference of half a dB on an FM station. Height of the antenna is more important than length of the coax. If your outdoor antenna is still only a few feet above the ground then there might not be much improvement. If it's 40' above the ground then there will be a big improvement.


----------



## Calaveras

Gibson_s said:


> After seeing the analysis of WIOT I figured I wasn't going to get it, hard to beat physics with an omni-directional FM antenna. I'll try again another day to duplicate the almost perfect reception I got before I messed with the neatness of the coax run. I guess it doesn't pay to be neat.


Nah! The path just changed. That's all. That's very common on non-LOS paths. Every receive location for every station is unique. A 50 mile 2 edge path is not impossible but it'll likely take a directional and higher antenna. 

I'm 80 miles and a 2 edge path from Tucson and some of the higher power stations are quite good here. Not all of them. Here's one that is good.










I'm using a 5 element homemade yagi at 63'.


----------



## Gibson_s

I'm not going to buy or make a 5ft Yagi to get one station... only way I can get more height with this FM antenna I have now is if I find a standoff to the side of my tower but I don't really want to spend more money on it and not receive it. It's currently at 13ft at the eave of my house.

All of my closer stations are clear so I'll just live with it. I had WIOT clear for 5 minutes, I'm sure I could replicate it again with 15 trips up the ladder and back to the stereo , which I got tired of doing yesterday.

I'm not getting 102.9 WWWW, 44 miles 1 Edge in Ann Arbor either... unsure if I'm pointed in that direction (it's supposed to be unidirectional though) but this leads me to believe that the range on this antenna isn't that long. Any type of blockage and you are toast after 40 miles, would be my guess.

I am receiving 91.7 WUOM perfectly out of Ann Arbor at 47.6 Miles, but it's LOS and a much stronger signal.


----------



## jkeldo

Gibson_s said:


> Well, I got WIOT near perfect, just a tiny bit of noise to tell you that it's FM, was really happy to see this and went outside to route the coax neater, singing "18 and Life" by Skid Row that was just on... came inside and it had static again. I obviously jostled something .
> 
> I got tired of being bitten by mosquitoes so I went in and didn't bother messing with it. All the local channels are crystal clear, before I had to keep adjusting my rabbit ears for certain stations.
> 
> After seeing the analysis of WIOT I figured I wasn't going to get it, hard to beat physics with an omni-directional FM antenna. I'll try again another day to duplicate the almost perfect reception I got before I messed with the neatness of the coax run. I guess it doesn't pay to be neat.
> 
> I really cleaned up my local reception, but Toledo with the 2 Edge is probably a weak signal. There are some improvements I can make to fight for the station... we'll see. That's all I'm doing today.


In summer, it's always hard to tell if the improvement or not is due to tropo conditions. Today, I had a Canadian station CIQM from London Ontario (100 miles) on 97.5 which I've never heard taking over the usual WONE from Akron, OH which is around 20 miles away. Others from that same area coming in as well which I had heard previously. So I would keep trying. I find winter is better for some regular listening to distant stations where tropo does not interfere that are around 60 miles away. I'm using indoor antennas but I might try an outdoor one similar to the one you posted.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I'm in the Cleveland, OH area.


----------



## Gibson_s

I'm getting WIOT 104.7 perfectly right now at 2am... definitely Tropo though. I'm getting Lansing tv stations from 75 miles away that I can't get in the daytime, it always happens when Tropo is active.

It'll be gone tomorrow, it's the way she goes. 🍺

My old school Sansui is getting the station as well will rabbit ears (not as clearly as my Yamaha with the outdoor antenna) but some of the other stations are messed up, ones that I get normally.


----------



## Calaveras

The attached polar graph is a summary of antenna angles of radiation for various heights above ground. I pulled just the main lobes from a post I made sometime back on this subject. The radiation angles are for antennas above average flat ground. If you're on a hill with ground that slopes away or you're over salt water, things are much different.

Since this thread has been about FM, it is particularly relevant to review this. Almost all signals once you get past 20 miles distance come in at 1 degree elevation or less. The blue line on the graph shows 1 degree. A wavelength in the middle of the FM band is 10 feet. You can see that at 10' high your station could be 15-20 dB down. Even at 5 waves (50') your station could be 10 dB down. The antenna is not at maximum performance until it's 100' high! Of course that's impractical for almost everyone but you get an idea how much you're missing out on.

An FM antenna at 50' seems really high but that's equivalent to a UHF antenna at only 10'. Few people would consider putting an outdoor UHF antenna at just 10'. 10 waves on channel 14 is only 20'. Your antenna is at maximum performance at 20'.

Even high VHF is affected by this height problem. 5 waves on channel 7 is 28' feet. Your high VHF antenna needs to be at 60' to equal the UHF antenna performance at 20'. You can see why there are so many complaints about high VHF reception. Most antennas are just too low.

Low VHF is at an even greater disadvantage. One wave is 18' on channel 2. Until you get to 90' the antenna is barely working and 180' is optimum. So not only is low VHF plagued by environmental and manmade noise, it suffers from antennas that are too low. FM isn't much better.

I've found that with an FM antenna at 50' or higher that the the station's effective FCC Service Contour about doubles in size. I attached a terrain plot for KYOT in Phoenix at my location 175 miles away. I can receive it with my 5 el yagi at 60' with no tropo help but admittedly it's pretty weak.


----------



## Gibson_s

I'm sure it would help a bit if I had the cojones to climb the 34 feet to rewire the old school Yagi... but I don't and I haven't for 2 years now. I'm sure those long VHF elements would definitely help me get Toledo stations much more than that omnidirectional that really works no different than in my closet vs outdoors on the eave.









So I'm the guy with the single story house surrounded by a lot of 2 story houses blocking the signals. 50ft Maple trees don't help either.

Today I have no signal at all on 104.7, as in - dead air. Even some of my stations 10 miles away have a little static. Oh well, I was listening to some Death Metal on the local University's low power station earlier today CJAM... now that's static too.


----------



## Primestar31

@Gibson_s Buy a linemens belts such as this one. Once you climb to the top of the tower, you work it around the other side of the tower, and wrap it around twice on one leg. Then clip it behind you. You can then lean back and use both hands to do the work. I use one myself. Mine is from the late '90's. Oh, and wear some hiking boots, NOT shoes. Preferably steel-shank, but that's not super important for a job that won't last all that long. Vintage rose mfg lineman climbing belt | eBay


----------



## Gibson_s

Primestar31 said:


> @Gibson_s Buy a linemens belts such as this one. Once you climb to the top of the tower, you work it around the other side of the tower, and wrap it around twice on one leg. Then clip it behind you. You can then lean back and use both hands to do the work. I use one myself. Mine is from the late '90's. Oh, and wear some hiking boots, NOT shoes. Preferably steel-shank, but that's not super important for a job that won't last all that long. Vintage rose mfg lineman climbing belt | eBay


I have a harness and some climbing rope, carabiners, etc. I ordered a few more that are lengths that would be more helpful and stronger carabiners, slings, but I seriously doubt it'll get me to climb it. Not much daredevil stuff for me anymore.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

Hey, Anyone, while we're talking about FM, I have two dipoles from some Stellar labs 30-2476 VHF High antennas that I cannibalized. Would they be useful for making FM antennas? I believe they're 30 inches.

Of course I would need to remove the baluns. The dipole on the bottom is from an HDB91X


----------



## Calaveras

ChiwaukeeOTA said:


> Hey, Anyone, while we're talking about FM, I have two dipoles from some Stellar labs 30-2476 VHF High antennas that I cannibalized. Would they be useful for making FM antennas? I believe they're 30 inches.


A folded dipole for 98 MHz is about 56". I don't see exactly how useful those smaller dipoles would be. Have you considered building an antenna from scratch? You seem to have the skills to do that. It can be fun.


----------



## johnny antenna

Newark still sells a FM Antenna. You could make one with the parts you have laying around. 

30-2460 - Stellar Labs - Four Element Directional Outdoor FM Antenna (newark.com)


----------



## Gibson_s

I tried as an experiment to plug in my Stellar Labs omnidirectional FM antenna to my TV and see if I got anything, figured because FM is on the VHF band I'd get my RF 7 and 9. I did, plus most of my other strong local channels at 30-50%.

I was shocked, wonder what that supposed FM antenna is actually setup for, why on earth would it pick up RF 31 when it's setup for FM 88-108mhz? Must be the reason why it's no better than my rabbit ears indoors for FM.

Seeing as FM is between Low VHF and High VHF, UHF isn't even close to this, I'm assuming from this experiment that this FM antenna isn't even close to being tuned properly for FM. Would that be accurate or am I missing something?


----------



## onwisconsin

Gibson_s said:


> I tried as an experiment to plug in my Stellar Labs omnidirectional FM antenna to my TV and see if I got anything, figured because FM is on the VHF band I'd get my RF 7 and 9. I did, plus most of my other strong local channels at 30-50%.
> 
> I was shocked, wonder what that supposed FM antenna is actually setup for, why on earth would it pick up RF 31 when it's setup for FM 88-108mhz? Must be the reason why it's no better than my rabbit ears indoors for FM.
> 
> Seeing as FM is between Low VHF and High VHF, UHF isn't even close to this, I'm assuming from this experiment that this FM antenna isn't even close to being tuned properly for FM. Would that be accurate or am I missing something?


 An non-optimal antenna is still an antenna... (Even a paperclip or a fork can be an antenna in the right conditions.)


----------



## Calaveras

Gibson_s said:


> Seeing as FM is between Low VHF and High VHF, UHF isn't even close to this, I'm assuming from this experiment that this FM antenna isn't even close to being tuned properly for FM. Would that be accurate or am I missing something?


Any random sized piece of metal will act as an antenna for any frequency if the signals are strong enough. It's often difficult to keep signals out when doing sensitive bench tests. That's why screen rooms exist. Your FM antenna is probably fine.


----------



## Gibson_s

Calaveras said:


> Any random sized piece of metal will act as an antenna for any frequency if the signals are strong enough. It's often difficult to keep signals out when doing sensitive bench tests. That's why screen rooms exist. Your FM antenna is probably fine.


It's as good as rabbit ears inside, installed on the eave for FM reception... so random piece of metal sounds about right. I'm sure I could build a FM antenna better than it with a hockey stick and copper wire.


----------



## Ratman

Gibson_s said:


> I'm sure I could build a FM antenna better than it with a hockey stick and copper wire.


Keep us informed with the results.


----------



## Gibson_s

What's the simplest 1/2 wave dipole for FM to make with instructions?


----------



## Ratman

How to Make an FM Dipole Antenna » Electronics Notes


Details of a simple to construct DIY FM dipole antenna design that can be built easily and used for indoor reception of broadcast FM signals




www.electronics-notes.com









Antenna Theory - Half-Wave Dipole


Antenna Theory - Half-Wave Dipole, The dipole antenna is cut and bent for effective radiation. The length of the total wire, which is being used as a dipole, equals half of the wavelength (i.e.,




www.tutorialspoint.com


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

Calaveras said:


> A folded dipole for 98 MHz is about 56". I don't see exactly how useful those smaller dipoles would be. Have you considered building an antenna from scratch? You seem to have the skills to do that. It can be fun.


I've never built an FM antenna, but I'll bet you got plans for them! Since I'm between Chicago and Milwaukee probably an omnidirectional would be best


----------



## Gibson_s

I'm sure if this guy can make one out of junk in his garage, I could do one better than that. I'm not positive it's even working that well, he has the volume so low.


----------



## rabbit73

Gibson_s said:


> I'm sure if this guy can make one out of junk in his garage, I could do one better than that. I'm not positive it's even working that well, he has the volume so low.


The volume is intentionally low because of copyright restrictions of the music on FM broadcast.. If he had made the volume higher, Youtube would have pulled his video. He mentions the problem in the closed captions.

A video about NOAA weather channels would probably have been OK with louder audio because it's in the Public Domain.


----------



## Gibson_s

rabbit73 said:


> The volume is intentionally low because of copyright restrictions of the music on FM broadcast.. If he had made the volume higher, Youtube would have pulled his video. He mentions the problem in the closed captions.
> 
> A video about NOAA weather channels would probably have been OK with louder audio because it's in the Public Domain.


It didn't appear he's getting many channels and signal strength isn't very high. I can get 40 channels easily with rabbit ears. His showing of great reception really didn't show much.

Wonder how all these reaction videos get away with playing people's music videos in them. If something is free on the airwaves it should be _fair use._


----------



## Calaveras

Gibson_s said:


> What's the simplest 1/2 wave dipole for FM to make with instructions?


It's generally agreed upon that the useable bandwidth (acceptable SWR) is about 5% of the frequency the dipole is cut for. On FM that's about 10 MHz. Beyond that the dipole becomes more and more inefficient. We all know that any random piece of wire will act as an antenna for strong signals. Most people would not notice signals being some dB down at 88 and 108 MHz compared to 98 MHz. Over the years I've noticed the following for analog modulation types: 3 dB is the minimum a person can see or hear, 6 dB is noticeable but not huge and 10 dB is a significant difference.


----------



## rabbit73

Gibson_s said:


> Wonder how all these reaction videos get away with playing people's music videos in them. If something is free on the airwaves it should be _fair use._


It's fair use for your enjoyment, but not fair use for you to reproduce or transmit it for others without permission.



> noun: *fair use*; plural noun: *fair uses*
> 
> (in US copyright law) the doctrine that brief excerpts of copyright material may, under certain circumstances, be quoted verbatim for purposes such as criticism, news reporting, teaching, and research, without the need for permission from or payment to the copyright holder.
> "whether or not six seconds of the song in a user-generated video constitutes fair use is something for a court to decide"


YouTube has its own definition.


----------



## Gibson_s

This junk antenna is driving me crazy, one of my local stations is fuzzy all the time now... and we're talking super duper long distance of 17 miles away. Complete idiocy... must be made by PingBingDing.

Looks like it'll be coming down soon and I'll be going back to my rabbit ears in the closet, that worked better.


----------



## rabbit73

Gibson_s said:


> This junk antenna is driving me crazy, one of my local stations is fuzzy all the time now... and we're talking super duper long distance of 17 miles away.


That sounds like it could be multipath interference. An omni antenna is more likely to pick up multipath interference than a directional antenna.

The video that you linked to by a ham in Ireland showed his SONY ST-3950 FM tuner that has a multipath switch. When pressed, the strength/multipath meter shows the amount of multipath interference. The idea is to adjust your antenna for reduced multipath interference to improve reception quality.










Also, some of your local signals are very strong:
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/14a124cff4/Radar-FM.png


----------



## Gibson_s

You think this small antenna with a 69" VHF element would work for FM? I could definitely bolt it on the side of my tower easily and get more elevation with a mount like that.



Antennas Direct V10 Medium Gain (25 mi/40 km) UHF/VHF Antenna : Angel Electronics












The only local I'm not getting clearly anymore is 101.1 WRIF and it's not clear on my old school receiver with rabbit ears either. It's a weaker signal than some of the others. I lost a Chatham station when I put up the Stellar Labs antenna as well, no matter where I position, it's all fuzz. It's 43 miles away that was listenable with rabbit ears, but not perfect.


----------



## rabbit73

Gibson_s said:


> You think this small antenna with a 69" VHF element would work for FM? I could definitely bolt it on the side of my tower easily and get more elevation with a mount like that.


Most of the gain stated for that antenna is for UHF. I estimate that the longer elements would perform about as well as a dipole or rabbitears for FM.

For your weaker stations you would need an FM Yagi with more gain. It would be directional, so it would need to be aimed at the transmitter; that's the trade-off.


----------



## Primestar31

Gibson_s said:


> You think this small antenna with a 69" VHF element would work for FM? I could definitely bolt it on the side of my tower easily and get more elevation with a mount like that.
> 
> 
> 
> Antennas Direct V10 Medium Gain (25 mi/40 km) UHF/VHF Antenna : Angel Electronics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only local I'm not getting clearly anymore is 101.1 WRIF and it's not clear on my old school receiver with rabbit ears either. It's a weaker signal than some of the others. I lost a Chatham station when I put up the Stellar Labs antenna as well, no matter where I position, it's all fuzz. It's 43 miles away that was listenable with rabbit ears, but not perfect.


Why don't you just buy one of these? It's cheap enough, and made for FM: https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs...outdoor/dp/97W3565?st=stellar labs fm antenna


----------



## Gibson_s

Primestar31 said:


> Why don't you just buy one of these? It's cheap enough, and made for FM: https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2460/four-element-directional-outdoor/dp/97W3565?st=stellar labs fm antenna


Because it's large... I'd have to buy another mount for it... etc. Also, nothing is priced like that here in Canada. If the border opens up I'm all for buying super cheap antenna gear and going over to pick it up. 

What if I invest more money and it doesn't get me the one station I wanted when I bought the other (and failed)?

Should I trust stellar labs if the other model is garbage for my situation?


----------



## johnny antenna

Gibson_s said:


> Because it's large... I'd have to buy another mount for it... etc. Also, nothing is priced like that here in Canada. If the border opens up I'm all for buying super cheap antenna gear and going over to pick it up.
> 
> What if I invest more money and it doesn't get me the one station I wanted when I bought the other (and failed)?
> 
> Should I trust stellar labs if the other model is garbage for my situation?


Newark has a Canadian site. The prices are higher but maybe it's cheaper than ordering from the US? 
The FM aerial has a similar design to their High VHF antennas that work well. 
https://canada.newark.com/stellar-l...t-directional-outdoor/dp/97W3565?st=fm aerial


----------



## Calaveras

There are no guarantees in this business and no magic antennas. You pays your money takes your chances. If a small antenna is not doing the job then you'll need a bigger and higher one.


----------



## Gibson_s

Calaveras said:


> There are no guarantees in this business and no magic antennas. You pays your money takes your chances. If a small antenna is not doing the job then you'll need a bigger and higher one.


I've posted my issues with climbing a tower a few times now... maybe better FM reception isn't in the cards. 

For $30 US I'll roll the dice, I'm not doing it for $100 CDN + mounts, cable, connectors, etc.


----------



## Gibson_s

Silly question, I bought the Winegard wall mount kit for my buddy and we are going to mount his antenna higher on the wall with it and a galvanized pole... 









What is usually under aluminum siding and what size of a pilot hole should I (hopefully he) be drilling? Lag bolts look about 3" long. If masonry bits are needed he might be going to Home Depot again.


----------



## ughAudio

Calling users of Televes preamp power unit #550104 (Dat Boss UHF/Mix/Mix LR antennas)

Also @TelevesTech and @jruano

Output voltage in the pdf manual lists 12 +/- 1.5 but my trusty multimeter is reading 14.5-6. Should I be concerned?










Thank you in advance!


----------



## TelevesTech

ughAudio said:


> Calling users of Televes preamp power unit #550104 (Dat Boss UHF/Mix/Mix LR antennas)
> 
> Also @TelevesTech and @jruano
> 
> Output voltage in the pdf manual lists 12 +/- 1.5 but my trusty multimeter is reading 14.5-6. Should I be concerned?
> 
> View attachment 3154521
> 
> 
> Thank you in advance!


Not at all. The power supply puts out some extra to account for cable loss. The preamp in the antenna will work down to 10Vdc, albeit at a degraded performance at that point.


----------



## Primestar31

ughAudio said:


> Calling users of Televes preamp power unit #550104 (Dat Boss UHF/Mix/Mix LR antennas)
> 
> Also @TelevesTech and @jruano
> 
> Output voltage in the pdf manual lists 12 +/- 1.5 but my trusty multimeter is reading 14.5-6. Should I be concerned?
> 
> View attachment 3154521
> 
> 
> Thank you in advance!


Did you check that up at the coax end by the antenna? It's normal to be slightly higher right at the power supply, because after 100ft or so of coax, it drops a little. So, IMO, it's just fine and there's no worries.


----------



## ughAudio

TelevesTech said:


> Not at all. The power supply puts out some extra to account for cable loss. The preamp in the antenna will work down to 10Vdc, albeit at a degraded performance at that point.


Thank you @TelevesTech for your quick response... I was worried about the measured output but after your infromation I went ahead with a temp/test setup on the short ground tripod, and will be doing more soon. Impressed at the reception with the preamp powered at 5ft AGL/less than 90 AMSL receiving rabbitears "fair" UHF from ~60miles +/-.


----------



## ughAudio

Primestar31 said:


> Did you check that up at the coax end by the antenna? It's normal to be slightly higher right at the power supply, because after 100ft or so of coax, it drops a little. So, IMO, it's just fine and there's no worries.


It was measured from a 3ft 1694a coax "jumper" so, yeah, it was basically right at the power source. Thank you for your response.

BTW, your posts/thread _"In the process of installing 30' tv antenna tower"_ elsewhere with all of the pictures is great. Thank you!


----------



## tylerSC

johnny antenna said:


> Newark has a Canadian site. The prices are higher but maybe it's cheaper than ordering from the US?
> The FM aerial has a similar design to their High VHF antennas that work well.
> https://canada.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2460/four-element-directional-outdoor/dp/97W3565?st=fm aerial


The Newark U.S. website also is running a 15% off promo code right now so they have some good deals out there and if you spend $150 the shipping is free. Not sure about their Canadian site. The 2 bay UHF antenna and their 91XG yagi version are very good prices and they also have the round turnstile FM omni antenna for a good price. And their High VHF antennas are decent prices.


----------



## TelevesTech

ughAudio said:


> Thank you @TelevesTech for your quick response... I was worried about the measured output but after your infromation I went ahead with a temp/test setup on the short ground tripod, and will be doing more soon. Impressed at the reception with the preamp powered at 5ft AGL/less than 90 AMSL receiving rabbitears "fair" UHF from ~60miles +/-.


You're most welcome


----------



## Gibson_s

rabbit73 said:


> View attachment 3148255
> 
> 
> Thank you for the photo. That does look weird.
> 
> The flat antennas are usually pretty good for UHF signals in a strong signal area, but don't do as well with VHF signals. Maybe you will be able to tell us the make and model number after you have been there. It is possible that the preamp is being overloaded.
> 
> Trees can be a problem; they block TV signals.
> 
> It's OK to use the coax if it is in good condition, but don't use any of the other satellite devices; they might not be suitable for OTA.


Finally got around to my friend's house (he's always busy) and I took it down... some generic junk antenna. It has a light on the bottom so I'm assuming it has an internal preamp. Found out the "amp" or "power supply" he has near his TV doesn't match the antenna and it's not even hooked up correctly, I think the antenna port is broken or it's a connection I've never seen before, maybe proprietary from cheap antenna/preamp/power supply units? Also has RG59 junk cable.

There's a hodgepodge mess of wiring from 2 satellites and 4 LNB's that we took down... there's an Aspen distribution amp that wasn't hooked up to anything. It's basically a total mess. His whole system is entry level stuff put in on a shoestring budget, was my impression. I guess it was wired in 1999 by the previous owner and my buddy put up the junk antenna and connected it... sort of.

We hooked up his antenna straight to the TV after raising if from 13ft to 22ft on a non-sized (ran out of time) 100ft RG6 and he got signals unamplified (and about 40-50ft of extra coax) at very low signal strength. He didn't really aim it properly either. I told him he had to get rid of all the clutter and see what's going on, what is wired to what.

Those dipoles don't extend by the way. I guess the VHF portion is two 6" elements on each side.

I suggested a new antenna and preamp but will see what's going on with his system when the clutter is gone. He started having an argument with his kids so I figured I'd get out of there as it was getting awkward.


----------



## cpalmer2k

So I'm looking for some input from our resident experts. I currently have a Winegard 8 bay antenna mounted fairly low on the corner of my house's roof. I'm situated between two TV markets. I'm pointed towards Charlotte, the closest one, and receive my actual assigned DMA Greenville/Spartanburg from the back side sometimes, but not consistently.

Here is my Rabbit ears link: *RabbitEars.Info*

I'm currently redoing my setup and plan to put two RCA YAGI antennas up on a 30-35 foot mast with one pointed at each market feeding separate HDHomeRun devices. My problem as you will see from the report is my stations are all over the place signal wise.

Charlotte Market:

WBTV, WJZY, WCNC are all very strong, with the WSOC Translator not far behind. The three remaining stations, WCCB, WSOC and especially WAXN (the ATSC 3.0 lighthouse feed) are much weaker. I can get WCCB & WSOC with my current Pre-amped antenna, but WAXN is weak except during the winter months. The problem is that strategy overloads the higher channels. I've been considering "splitting" the output coming from the RCA antenna at the antenna and running one leg without a pre-amp and a second leg with a pre-amp to try to get the best mix of both groups of channels.


ChannelCallsignNetwork

(311075)Community
of LicenseStateMapTransmitter
Distance
(Miles)Direction
(True)Direction
(Magnetic)Field Strength
(dBuV/m)Signal
Margin
(dB)Repack
Info3‑1 (23)​WBTVCBSCHARLOTTENC​​26​47.2°​54.6°​103.55 Good​63.89​​46‑1 (25)
55‑1 (25)​WJZY
WMYT-TVFOX
MYBELMONT
ROCK HILLNC
SC​​27.2​49.9°​57.3°​101.96 Good​62.11​L​36‑1 (24)​WCNC-TVNBCCHARLOTTENC​​25.9​50.4°​57.8°​92.35 Good​52.59​L​9‑1 (12)​WSOC-CR// WSOC/WAXNShelbyNC​​16.4​58.6°​66°​81.14 Fair​45.14​​18‑1 (18)​WCCBCWCHARLOTTENC​​45.9​76°​83.4°​63.55 Fair​24.4​L​9‑1 (19)​WSOC-TVABC/TLMCHARLOTTENC​​46.3​76.6°​84°​62.11 Fair​22.86​L​64‑1 (32)​WAXN-TVINDKANNAPOLISNC​​46.3​76.6°​84°​54.97 Poor​14.46​L​

Greenville Market:

This market is a similar scenario but not quite as bad. Most of the stations are in the same strength range except for WMYA. Should I try something like a Kiztech pre-amp on this antenna and hope it gives me a shot at WMYA, or should I look at splitting the feed here too with a higher powered pre-amp for WMYA? Or, should I point directly at WMYA with the pre-amp and hope it's direction away from the other states will compensate and help prevent overload of the stronger signals?


ChannelCallsignNetwork

(311075)Community
of LicenseStateMapTransmitter
Distance
(Miles)Direction
(True)Direction
(Magnetic)Field Strength
(dBuV/m)Signal
Margin
(dB)Repack
Info4‑1 (30)​WYFFNBCGREENVILLESC​​61.1​270.5°​277.9°​88.65 Good​48.33​L​33‑1 (20)​WUNF-TVPBSAshevilleNC​​58.4​278°​285.4°​86.54 Good​47.18​L​21‑1 (17)​WHNSFOXGREENVILLESC​​65.6​274.8°​282.2°​82.85 Fair​43.81​L​7‑1 (11)
62‑1 (11)​WSPA-TV
WYCWCBS
CWSPARTANBURG
ASHEVILLESC
NC​​43.5​275.8°​283.2°​82.43 Fair​46.43​L​29‑1 (8)
49‑1 (8)​WNTV
WRET-TVPBS
PBSGREENVILLE
SPARTANBURGSC
SC​​51.4​257.2°​264.6°​73.99 Fair​37.99​R​13‑1 (13)​WLOSABCASHEVILLENC​​72.8​287.8°​295.2°​72.41 Fair​36.41​​30‑1 (34)​WNSC-TVPBSROCK HILLSC​​34.2​122.8°​130.2°​68.41 Fair​27.73​L​40‑1 (35)​WMYA-TVMyANDERSONSC​​52.9​233.2°​240.6°​57.69 Poor​16.92​L​

Is there a better antenna/plan that someone can suggest?


----------



## tylerSC

Your plan may be adequate but the challenge is amplifying the Charlotte signals without overloading Dallas. You could consider trying 2 Televes Ellipse Mix antennas, one for CLT and one for GSP. They both have built in adjustable gain amplifiers, and will work with the amp turned off. Also you may be an ideal candidate for the Televes Avant X signal combiner, which has adjustable filters and amplification. But those products are a bit pricey but otherwise reportedly good performers and eventually pay for themselves. Good luck.


----------



## Gibson_s

Charlotte is all UHF and Greenville has 3 stations on the VHF, you could do a combiner with UHF/VHF separate antennas and have no multipath issues.

Things get more difficult when you are trying to get 2 markets not close to each other... lots of trial and error ahead plus some of those stations are pretty fringe as well.


----------



## Trip in VA

If you were to aim the Charlotte antenna off-axis slightly to the south, with respect to WSOC/WCCB/WAXN, would that potentially knock down the three stronger ones enough to allow you to amp the whole feed? You might also get WNSC on that antenna that way.

As strong as WBTV/WCNC/WJZY are, do you think the west-facing antenna would reliably see them? If so, perhaps you could get a band-stop filter for those channels on the east-facing antenna so you can amp WAXN, but then use the west-facing antenna for those stations. I will note that the 50 dB spread you have to the east is worse than the 30 dB spread to the west, so I wonder if you'd be able to get away with amping that side to get WMYA without having WYFF/WUNF overpower everything. You could also see about off-axis aiming there as well.

Not sure any of that is helpful; just what comes to mind off the top of my head.

- Trip


----------



## cpalmer2k

Trip in VA said:


> If you were to aim the Charlotte antenna off-axis slightly to the south, with respect to WSOC/WCCB/WAXN, would that potentially knock down the three stronger ones enough to allow you to amp the whole feed? You might also get WNSC on that antenna that way.
> 
> As strong as WBTV/WCNC/WJZY are, do you think the west-facing antenna would reliably see them? If so, perhaps you could get a band-stop filter for those channels on the east-facing antenna so you can amp WAXN, but then use the west-facing antenna for those stations. I will note that the 50 dB spread you have to the east is worse than the 30 dB spread to the west, so I wonder if you'd be able to get away with amping that side to get WMYA without having WYFF/WUNF overpower everything. You could also see about off-axis aiming there as well.
> 
> Not sure any of that is helpful; just what comes to mind off the top of my head.
> 
> - Trip


Thanks Trip, you make some good points. In the case of my Winegard 8-Bay I have now I'm pointing at WSOC/WCC/WAXN with one of the older Channel Master Pre-Amps. I was able to get my hands on one of the Channel Master ATSC Signal Meters for the weekend so tomorrow I'm going to try to see how hot the WBTV/WCNC/WJZY signals are actually coming in now. They're all maxed out at 100/100/100 on the HDHomeRun Config GUI signal meter function.

Using the single antenna & amp may work for the Greenville/Spartanburg stations. Looking at how they are dispersed I see two good options: point the antenna at WNTV (circled in Red on the Map) or WYFF (Blue), which would be dead center among the towers. Hopefully that would give a shot at WMYA, but also reduce the amp's effect on the others.










On your other point about back side reception that may well be the solution to the WBTV/WCNC/WJZY problem. This map is the same as the one above, but it shows those three on the Charlotte side. That isn't a bad angle for them. Depending on how well they come in it may work.










I'm going to use the signal meter tomorrow to see how strong the signals I'm getting are now and will report back.


----------



## tylerSC

In Spartanburg I also use a Winegard 8800 8bay antenna pointed towards WSOC/WCCB. It pulls them in reliably, as well as WBTV/WCNC/WJZY. And all the GSP UHF signals from the back, as well as WSPA. But I have to add a separate VHF antenna for 13-WLOS which is problematic, as well as WGGS-RF2 and SCETV-RF8. But overloading the amp is an issue, from both Dallas and WYFF and WSPA. So I use a Winegard LNA100 inline amp insted of a preamp and that works very well. I also have a Televes Eclipse Mix as a back up or alternate antenna and it also works very well and the adjustable amp does not seem to overload. But what Trip suggested with filters is also an idea I had, but he is much more technically astute to explain it better.


----------



## johnny antenna

cpalmer2k said:


> Thanks Trip, you make some good points. In the case of my Winegard 8-Bay I have now I'm pointing at WSOC/WCC/WAXN with one of the older Channel Master Pre-Amps. I was able to get my hands on one of the Channel Master ATSC Signal Meters for the weekend so tomorrow I'm going to try to see how hot the WBTV/WCNC/WJZY signals are actually coming in now. They're all maxed out at 100/100/100 on the HDHomeRun Config GUI signal meter function.
> 
> Using the single antenna & amp may work for the Greenville/Spartanburg stations. Looking at how they are dispersed I see two good options: point the antenna at WNTV (circled in Red on the Map) or WYFF (Blue), which would be dead center among the towers. Hopefully that would give a shot at WMYA, but also reduce the amp's effect on the others.
> 
> View attachment 3159875
> 
> 
> On your other point about back side reception that may well be the solution to the WBTV/WCNC/WJZY problem. This map is the same as the one above, but it shows those three on the Charlotte side. That isn't a bad angle for them. Depending on how well they come in it may work.
> 
> View attachment 3159878
> 
> 
> I'm going to use the signal meter tomorrow to see how strong the signals I'm getting are now and will report back.


Using separate VHF UHF antennas for GSP/WNC will make it an easier setup. 

I'd get a 91xg to go for WAXN WCCB WSOC since they're one-edge. The corner reflector antennas are also much easier to aim than the 8 bays when they're spread out. No preamp unless you have a long cable run.


----------



## tylerSC

johnny antenna said:


> Using separate VHF UHF antennas for GSP/WNC will make it an easier setup.
> 
> I'd get a 91xg to go for WAXN WCCB WSOC since they're one-edge. The corner reflector antennas are also much easier to aim than the 8 bays when they're spread out. No preamp unless you have a long cable run.


If you have a long cable run you could maybe add a distribution amp further down the line. Also since you are near Gaffney you could order a Stellar Labs 91XG and stop by the Newark warehouse and pick it up. It was running about $22, very reasonable.


----------



## RobD25

need some help determining to get another pre-amp or a distribution amp. I have an RCA ANT751E (the original one) on an 18 foot pole ( i do have tall trees in the direction of the antennas , approx 22 miles away) I used to have a a CM Titan 2 medium gain ver 1 which worked well until it crapped out after a couple of years. to replace it I have a cheap RCA distribution amp 1450E which isn't up to snuff as I can only get about 1/3 the channels... So are there better distribution amps that may get my channels back or do I go back to a preamp? coax run is about 75-100'. and if a preamp what's good these days ? another CM? I see they have a ver 3 out, I don't want to keep shelling out $75 every couple of years..


----------



## Calaveras

If you needed a preamp before then you'll need one now. I'd just replace your old CM preamp with a 7778v3. I've seen the insides of the new line of CM preamps and they look like they're well built but there's never a guarantee that anything will last for any length of time. If a new preamp doesn't work like the old one then you have some other problem.


----------



## RobD25

Cal, still hesitant about the CM stuff , looking at their website they suggest putting the preamp under an eave, won't be able to do that.... any bad things about a Televes Mast Amplifier ? I only need a single input?


----------



## Calaveras

RobD25 said:


> Cal, still hesitant about the CM stuff , looking at their website they suggest putting the preamp under an eave, won't be able to do that....


I have a CM7778HD Amplify + and it's built like most other preamps.... a cast metal case covering everything. It's hard to imagine water getting inside it. Sounds like CM is just being very conservative.

I have a Televes preamp too and the metal preamp is inside a plastic case with a sliding cover. I don't think that is sealed as well as the CM but I doubt water ingress would be a problem with it either.

I've had a lot of preamps and in my experience as long as the connectors are shielded from direct rain, water is not a problem.


----------



## TelevesTech

A couple differences maybe worth noticing between the 560383 and the CM7778v3 are repack 608MHz 5G filtering on the the Televes vs 700MHz on the CM, tighter filtering in general (below), and most importantly automatic gain control on the Televes vs fixed gain on the CM, which helps maximize uptime in presence of changing propagation conditions. 

A few pictures of the PCB, case, and external housing attached to this post as well. The injected zamak case has been carefully designed to optimize RF shielding and immunity, and we have experienced the injected F connectors are much more durable than physical barrels soldered to the board, a common failure point in these types of devices.


----------



## Gibson_s

I took out a Female to Female coupler as my coax wasn't long enough to reach my FM receiver and just added a splitter, then one end to my Yamaha receiver and the other to my vintage Sansui FM Tuner, with the help of a balun to match my old style screw on FM connection in the back.

Surprisingly it cleaned up most local stations, no more static (_especially_ the vintage Tuner which seems to sound better as well). As for anything farther than 30 miles, not even a whiff. So as I previously stated that the Stellar Labs FM antenna was "junk", it's not quite the case. Lots of trial and error involved. I guess you don't know until you experiment and try different things.










I got about 10 TV stations when I hooked up the FM antenna to my Tablo ATSC tuner (even with signal split)... which also surprised me a bit. I was thinking about adding a Distribution amp to the Tablo from this antenna but NOT to my FM tuners. Unsure how I'll accomplish this as I have a 2 channel amp. Not going to keep it like this, just as an experiment. I have my main TV antenna that I can connect to my Tablo.

I pulled out a splitter from my new TV with a 3.0 tuner and had a more direct connection and the AGC went down from 161 to 157, which I'm assuming is good and I did something marginally to improve it. Signal strength didn't really budge that I could see. Was 66-68% and stayed similar strength afterwards.


----------



## onwisconsin

Does anyone know if there are any bow-tie style antennas designed for post repack channels that are currently being sold or announced?


----------



## rabbit73

onwisconsin said:


> Does anyone know if there are any bow-tie style antennas designed for post repack channels currently being sold or announced?


Not that I know of.

A manufacturer isn't going to redesign an antenna unless they are certain they will make a profit.

The closest to what you want is an A-Group antenna from the UK, but the shipping will eat you up.
XB16A Aerial - A.T.V. Poles, Brackets, Clamps & Aerials



















A bowtie antenna for 14-36 would be a DIY project:
Thread
New UHF Spectrum antennas?
New UHF Spectrum antennas?

Post #26
New UHF Spectrum antennas?


----------



## hancox

I have a potentially stupid question, but it's admittedly an oddball...

I have a new dual-input active preamp (Televes 560483), and I currently have an antenna (the old version CM 4228) which doesn't require any DC to it. 

The issue for me - I have a secondary input which use the DC pass to a Televes antenna.
The preamp only has one on/off for DC passing - i.e. all or nothing.

Is there any harm in the DC pass being passed to the CM 4228? Is there a way to supress it, without adding a 2nd power supply to the mix?


----------



## rabbit73

hancox said:


> Is there any harm in the DC pass being passed to the CM 4228? Is there a way to supress it, without adding a 2nd power supply to the mix?





















My guess would be to insert a DC block in the coax line to the 4228. This will pass the signals from the antenna, but block the DC from the amp.


----------



## hancox

rabbit73 said:


> View attachment 3170320
> 
> 
> My guess would be to insert a DC block in the coax line to the 4228. This will pass the signals from the antenna, but block the DC from the amp.


TIL such a thing exists. thanks!

Any idea on a supplier? I've seen prices from $2 to $150 with some of my more-favored suppliers not having anything!

If it ends up too expensive, i may just sell the 4228 (as it will be a hot commodity) to fund a newer televes. it's overkill in my use anyway.


----------



## hancox

never mind - found it - "DC-Voltage Blocking Coupler" is a better search term. Thanks again!


----------



## rabbit73

hancox said:


> Any idea on a supplier? I've seen prices from $2 to $150 with some of my more-favored suppliers not having anything!


How about $8.99 for 2
Amazon.com: Ancable F-Type Cable TV in-line Voltage Blocking Capacitor DC Block 2-Pack : Electronics

VBC, DC-Voltage Blocking Coupler

Channel Plus 2501 In-Line Blocking Capacitor F-Connector Type DC Block and IR Control Pulses Passes

F-Type Male to Female DC Blocking Attenuator - 5-2500 MHz

Holland Inline Dc Block

This type of device usually has a 22 gauge diameter pin on the male end. The center conductor of RG6 coax is 18 gauge. So you need to make sure that the male end of the device is making good contact with the female connector.


----------



## hancox

yep - that was the same one i found and already ordered


----------



## Calaveras

hancox said:


> If it ends up too expensive, i may just sell the 4228 (as it will be a hot commodity) to fund a newer televes. it's overkill in my use anyway.


I see why the mods don't like separate threads for the same issue. I missed this in my other response.

If the CM4228 is overkill then the BOSS probably is too. Can you post a link to your Rabbitears report? Maybe less expensive antennas with no preamps at all will do the job.


----------



## hancox

Calaveras said:


> I see why the mods don't like separate threads for the same issue. I missed this in my other response.
> 
> If the CM4228 is overkill then the BOSS probably is too. Can you post a link to your Rabbitears report? Maybe less expensive antennas with no preamps at all will do the job.


Sorry - my fault there - the other thread has concentration of the "right people" there (multi-antenna users, televes, etc), but this it the "right thread"

Anyway, don't worry about my "overkill" comment. I would need a preamp for cabling length, at a minimum. The 4228 has served me well for a while, but it's 1) probably worth a fair amount of money, having never been outside, and 2) not the best suited for my actual use case (which includes some high VHF). I was under the impression that 2 smaller, better suited antennas would be a better solution for my dual-market setup.


----------



## Norman56

I have a CM4228 purchased around 2005 that was never installed anywhere. I took it out of its box to look at it once or twice. We ended up moving house shortly afterwards and it has remained boxed and unused since that time because there has always been something else to do rather than install it.
I should be grateful to receive any suggestions as to what a reasonable price is for this antenna and the best way to find someone who wants it (other than Ebay)? I am in Washington, DC area.

tia


----------



## Primestar31

Norman56 said:


> I have a CM4228 purchased around 2005 that was never installed anywhere. I took it out of its box to look at it once or twice. We ended up moving house shortly afterwards and it has remained boxed and used since that time because there has always been something else to do rather than install it.
> I should be grateful to receive any suggestions as to what a reasonable price is for this antenna and the best way to find someone who wants it (other than Ebay)? I am in Washington, DC area.
> 
> tia


Facebook Marketplace, and maybe about $50 or so. Regular "every-day" type people don't tend to pay much for used antennas, even NOS ones. Putting it on Ebay, will likely get you more, but you'd have to be willing to ship it.


----------



## Gibson_s

What am I missing? Older CM antennas are going for big money or something? Not around here... also, it can be difficult to sell one and say "I never installed it". Last ad I saw like that the antenna looked pretty well used. 

We are in a time where a knockoff antenna will go for $15-30 so it might be difficult to sell for good money unless you are reaching the right audience - which isn't that many people, I imagine.

After all, I'm getting by with a $20 (Canadian dollars) 4 bay with free shipping from Amazon. I'm in for a total of $60 if you count the $40 RCA preamplifier.


----------



## Primestar31

Gibson_s said:


> What am I missing? Older CM antennas are going for big money or something?


The older models of the CM4228 that used a 300 to 75 ohm balun, (versus the new ones that use a built-in balun, that cuts out VHF) are better& worth a bit more than the newer models. Of course, only a techie type person would know that, which limits the market a LOT.


----------



## KeithWE6R

Primestar31 said:


> The older models of the CM4228 that used a 300 to 75 ohm balun, (versus the new ones that use a built-in balun, that cuts out VHF) are better& worth a bit more than the newer models. Of course, only a techie type person would know that, which limits the market a LOT.


Measure the whiskers, I have an OLD 4-bay of unknown make that has too small of elements and does not work good on the low channels. 
I wish the manufacturers would modify for 14-36, 470-608Mhz, and TELL us that they have done so.


----------



## Gibson_s

KeithWE6R said:


> Measure the whiskers, I have an OLD 4-bay of unknown make that has too small of elements and does not work good on the low channels.
> I wish the manufacturers would modify for 14-36, 470-608Mhz, and TELL us that they have done so.


It's only been since the July 2020 repack, I'm reading. Unsure if it's worth it to a company to re-engineer new antennas for the smaller band but you never know.

The knock off 4 Bay I bought says 470-806MHz. I have a CM LTE filter which high passes it anyway. Sounds like my antenna hasn't been updated since it's inception. I'm sure it's max gain is on TV frequencies that no longer exist 🕵️‍♀️


----------



## Primestar31

Anybody ever try one of these? Why did you think you needed it/what issues were you having that you tried it? If so, what results did you have? High Pass Filter 50 MHz


----------



## tylerSC

Primestar31 said:


> Anybody ever try one of these? Why did you think you needed it/what issues were you having that you tried it? If so, what results did you have? High Pass Filter 50 MHz


What type of interference is this filter supposed to block? Will it help with UHF or VHF reception?


----------



## Primestar31

tylerSC said:


> What type of interference is this filter supposed to block? Will it help with UHF or VHF reception?


Not all sure that's why I posted. However, it should block high-powered CB or Ham radio that's nearby your antenna system for sure. Anything under 50 Mhz.

I'm wondering if it would also help block electrical noise from power bricks and such, or help lower the local noise floor?


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

Primestar31 said:


> Not all sure that's why I posted. However, it should block high-powered CB or Ham radio that's nearby your antenna system for sure. Anything under 50 Mhz.
> 
> I'm wondering if it would also help block electrical noise from power bricks and such, or help lower the local noise floor?



They do make mention of interference from household appliances and AC electrical power strips. Which I'm assuming is a power brick.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

tylerSC said:


> What type of interference is this filter supposed to block? Will it help with UHF or VHF reception?


Hey Tyler , 

No offense here, but when you read all the dialog that goes along with the link that he sent, it helps you understand what it does. First of all it blocks all signals under 50 megahertz as you know but in In the last paragraph of the description of the product it's especially useful in Marine areas where boat radios can interfere with the signal. I am no RF Guru, but basically they're saying it blocks signals below 50 megahertz. 

I'm assuming that that will help attenuate our block very strong signals from Transmissions below 50 megahertz. I'll never forget in the seventies when the CB craze was going full force, a lot of the people had super strong transmitters at home and some in their cars. It would come over our TV set. 

I'm in the auto repair industry. I looked at this customers car that had two alternators to power his CB system. He had some very big devices all related to CB radio.. It's been probably 30 years now so I don't remember what they looked like.I just remember he had Overkill. From here in Illinois he said he was able to talk to people in the Carolinas.

Sorry for my ramble!


----------



## Primestar31

ChiwaukeeOTA said:


> They do make mention of interference from household appliances and AC electrical power strips. Which I'm assuming is a power brick.


I installed one the other day just in my VHF antenna path before the UVSJ and my Televes 560331 preamp. However, due to reasons beyond my control, at the moment I no longer have access to a spectrum analyzer so I can't tell for sure as of yet if it's doing anything for me. It's cheap enough though, and I have enough signal margin, so IMO it can't hurt.

I'd sure like to see @rabbit73 or others with a spectrum analyzer check it though if they have a chance, and see what they think about it.


----------



## Calaveras

Primestar31 said:


> I'd sure like to see @rabbit73 or others with a spectrum analyzer check it though if they have a chance, and see what they think about it.


I can't imagine what a 50 MHz high pass filter is going to do for anyone. Low power RFI below 50 MHz even if it does reach the TV isn't going to do anything. It's RFI on the same frequencies as the TV channels that are a problem and this filter does nothing for that. 

My extensive experience with TVI from ham radio is that most of the interference gets into the TV from the outside of the coax or via one of the audio or video cables connected to the TV. Again the filter does nothing for that. I never had much luck at all with high pass filters on the coax or twinlead getting rid of RFI. I had some success with wrapping cables around ferrite rods. 

A TV antenna is a very poor antenna for 28 MHz and lower where most high power ham operations take place. Unless you have a ham within about 200' or less of your house, you won't be getting interference from them.


----------



## Falcon_77

I'm in the market for another pre-amp and have noticed the Televes 560483 as a potential solution for my separate high band VHF and UHF antennas for San Diego reception from here in Mission Viejo, CA. I haven't used a preamp on them in over a year I don't think, but I just got back from Italy and am motivated to try improving San Diego reception again.

Any comments are welcome. The UHF antenna is a 91XG clone in the attic and the 5 element Hi-V Yagi antenna is outside. I'm going to replace that one with the Stellar Labs which has served me well in WA.

Thank you,


----------



## Primestar31

Falcon_77 said:


> Televes 560483


NO, don't use this preamp for your application.

You want to use a UVSJ to combine both antennas, and then feed the output of that into a Televes 560*383 *single input preamp. The 560483 is meant for combining two antennas in the *same bands*. Since ONE of yours is VHF, and ONE of yours is UHF, that doesn't fit those requirements, and it's not the best fit for you.

P.S. I tried the same thing, so this is first-hand info. I have separate UHF & VHF antennas, and first tried the 560483 preamp, only to find out it was worse (for this application) than my previous Kitztech KT-200. I then was able to swap it out for the 560383 preamp, and that worked MUCH better for me. It also has FM, LTE/5G filters, and an AGC feature to adjust itself to not overwhelm stronger versus weaker stations.


----------



## LaserBeamSC

Falcon_77 said:


> I'm in the market for another pre-amp and have noticed the Televes 560483 as a potential solution for my separate high band VHF and UHF antennas for San Diego reception from here in Mission Viejo, CA. I haven't used a preamp on them in over a year I don't think, but I just got back from Italy and am motivated to try improving San Diego reception again.
> 
> Any comments are welcome. The UHF antenna is a 91XG clone in the attic and the 5 element Hi-V Yagi antenna is outside. I'm going to replace that one with the Stellar Labs which has served me well in WA.
> 
> Thank you,


That’s good advice from Primestar31 by using a UVSJ to combine before the 560383 input for separate UHF and VHF antennas and not using the 560483 for that setup. Televes does make a 560121 that has 3 inputs. One for Hi-V, UHF and FM if you wanted to add that. I’ve never used this preamp but plan to in the future but have tried the 560383 and think it’s one of the best preamps being made.


----------



## Falcon_77

Got it. Alright. Thank you both for the tips!


----------



## Calaveras

Falcon_77 said:


> I'm in the market for another pre-amp and have noticed the Televes 560483 as a potential solution for my separate high band VHF and UHF antennas for San Diego reception from here in Mission Viejo, CA. I haven't used a preamp on them in over a year I don't think, but I just got back from Italy and am motivated to try improving San Diego reception again.
> 
> Any comments are welcome.


The KT-700 has separate VHF/UHF inputs and an LTE filter. It's a reasonable choice for what you want to do.


----------



## TelevesTech

The recommendations above are correct. The 560483 dual input preamp is designed to combine two antennas that overlap in frequency, be that two UHF antennas, one combo and one UHF, two VHF antennas, or any number of such combinations.

For that application and when using one single preamp, it is the right solution as one needs to broadband combine the two antennas in any case. The 560483 has an input broadband combiner, which you need in that case anyway, and attenuators to balance the two contributing antennas as best possible when needed. 

When you are combining a UHF-only with a VHF-only specific antenna, then the combiner incurs more insertion loss than a U/V diplexer would, and while it will work fine in that scenario in many cases, when the situation is fringe and every last dB counts, a more optimal installation is to use a diplexer and the single input 560383 preamplifier, or a single input preamplifier per antenna if so desired. For the same reason, using the dual input 560483 is not recommended when installing just one antenna, as it is equivalent to putting a two-way splitter in front of the preamp.


















There are a number of preamplifiers in the market that have independent U and V inputs that could be used, including some Televes units (example: Mast amplifier with BOSS-Tech). But most of them don't have very good out of band filtering and none have automatic gain control to avoid over or under amplification when conditions change.


----------



## Falcon_77

TelevesTech said:


> The recommendations above are correct. The 560483 dual input preamp is designed to combine two antennas that overlap in frequency, be that two UHF antennas, one combo and one UHF, two VHF antennas, or any number of such combinations.
> 
> For that application and when using one single preamp, it is the right solution as one needs to broadband combine the two antennas in any case. The 560483 has an input broadband combiner, which you need in that case anyway, and attenuators to balance the two contributing antennas as best possible when needed.
> 
> When you are combining a UHF-only with a VHF-only specific antenna, then the combiner incurs more insertion loss than a U/V diplexer would, and while it will work fine in that scenario in many cases, when the situation is fringe and every last dB counts, a more optimal installation is to use a diplexer and the single input 560383 preamplifier, or a single input preamplifier per antenna if so desired. For the same reason, using the dual input 560483 is not recommended when installing just one antenna, as it is equivalent to putting a two-way splitter in front of the preamp.


I ordered a 560*3*83. The 483 would probably be good if I needed to amplify LA signals as well, but they are so strong, I have no need for that.

I have a separate V/U stack pointed to LA feeding the primary HDHR tuner. The SD stack is on a secondary HDHR tuner. I keep them separated as there are some cases of co-channel with LD's in LA and SD stepping on toes of the Full Powers in the other markets. Actually there's one case where there's two full powers on the same channel in LA and SD (18 - KSCI vs. KUSI). That was a bad idea.


----------



## cpalmer2k

This is probably a dumb question, but here it goes. I'm currently putting up an RCA ANT751 to point at a secondary market. The antenna comes with a 300Ohm to 75Ohm transformer with instructions to of course install it between washers on the antenna. Can you install two transformers on the same antenna (putting a filter on one of them to filter out stronger stations and feed into a preamp) and the second line straight in for the stronger signals? Would that be less detrimental to the signal than a splitter on the mast?


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

cpalmer2k said:


> This is probably a dumb question, but here it goes. I'm currently putting up an RCA ANT751 to point at a secondary market. The antenna comes with a 300Ohm to 75Ohm transformer with instructions to of course install it between washers on the antenna. Can you install two transformers on the same antenna (putting a filter on one of them to filter out stronger stations and feed into a preamp) and the second line straight in for the stronger signals? Would that be less detrimental to the signal than a splitter on the mast?


I'm wondering if you couldn't just use an AGC preamp like the Televes especially if you have varying strengths signals. Or you could get the Avant X and play with all your signal strengths. No, I am not a shill. I just think that that company has better Solutions for your situation.

Understand that what you're trying to do is unorthodox with two baluns. I'm sure there is guys here with more experience they can tell you if it will work or not. I would go with the technological approach.


----------



## cpalmer2k

ChiwaukeeOTA said:


> I'm wondering if you couldn't just use an AGC preamp like the Televes especially if you have varying strengths signals. Or you could get the Avant X and play with all your signal strengths. No, I am not a shill. I just think that that company has better Solutions for your situation.
> 
> Understand that what you're trying to do is unorthodox with two baluns. I'm sure there is guys here with more experience they can tell you if it will work or not. I would go with the technological approach.


My issue is the closest stations are between 63-52 dB in signal strength and the weakest stations are between 24-14 dB. The strongest stations essentially don't need any pre-amp at all, but the weakest ones need the full power of the pre-amp. My plan was to use a jan jenca channel pass filter to just pass the three weakest stations to the Pre-Amp with the second cable and have all the rest come in directly. 

I may be wrong, but based on my reading of videobruce's review of the Advant X and the discussions of the Televes Pre-Amps wouldn't that be too big of a range for it to compensate for if I just feed everything in directly? 

​


----------



## Calaveras

cpalmer2k said:


> This is probably a dumb question, but here it goes. I'm currently putting up an RCA ANT751 to point at a secondary market. The antenna comes with a 300Ohm to 75Ohm transformer with instructions to of course install it between washers on the antenna. Can you install two transformers on the same antenna (putting a filter on one of them to filter out stronger stations and feed into a preamp) and the second line straight in for the stronger signals? Would that be less detrimental to the signal than a splitter on the mast?


If you put two 300 ohm transformers in parallel the 300 ohm antenna will be seeing 150 ohms for a 2:1 mismatch. It could work but it's not a good idea. A splitter is the way to go.


----------



## Gibson_s

cpalmer2k said:


> My issue is the closest stations are between 63-52 dB in signal strength and the weakest stations are between 24-14 dB. The strongest stations essentially don't need any pre-amp at all, but the weakest ones need the full power of the pre-amp. My plan was to use a jan jenca channel pass filter to just pass the three weakest stations to the Pre-Amp with the second cable and have all the rest come in directly.
> 
> I may be wrong, but based on my reading of videobruce's review of the Advant X and the discussions of the Televes Pre-Amps wouldn't that be too big of a range for it to compensate for if I just feed everything in directly?
> 
> ​


1 balun and just use the AGC preamp (or go ballz out high power) would be my guess. I have stations with 100db in signal strength and I still have to preamp to get others who just don't travel well. Granted, I'm in an area with some multipath and interference issues. Everyone's location is different.

I can't even sniff a station that's 20 miles away, with my unamplified outdoor antenna in the attic. My other main system is outdoors and preamped to get it reliably. I guess it doesn't help that I have 3 celltowers within 500M of my house and a giant hospital 2 blocks away.

You don't have to use the Televes, the CM Amplify also has adjustable gain or if you are worried about overload, just get a Medium Gain preamp. Buy the gear at a place you can return easily as there can be some trial and error to find the right fit.


----------



## TelevesTech

cpalmer2k said:


> My issue is the closest stations are between 63-52 dB in signal strength and the weakest stations are between 24-14 dB. The strongest stations essentially don't need any pre-amp at all, but the weakest ones need the full power of the pre-amp. My plan was to use a jan jenca channel pass filter to just pass the three weakest stations to the Pre-Amp with the second cable and have all the rest come in directly.
> 
> I may be wrong, but based on my reading of videobruce's review of the Advant X and the discussions of the Televes Pre-Amps wouldn't that be too big of a range for it to compensate for if I just feed everything in directly?
> 
> ​


With regards to the Avant X mentioned, a couple comments :


Always adjust in presence of input signals, for the reasons explained below. If no signal is present, then the unit just cranks up the gain of the filter programmed in that frequency, ingesting noise and amplifying it.
For the above reason, you should not program filters on channels where you’re not positive you have a signal (we’ve seen guys program the entire band for “dx-ing purposes”, that’s not what the Avant is designed to do.
Always put a 75 ohm terminator load on the main output (middle connector on bottom) when adjusting, so the output is correctly loaded and there are no impedance mismatches during adjustment.
Input levels are -20dBmV to 40dBmV, within’ that window the unit will be able to adjust the output to the programmed level on that carrier, outside of that window, it may not have enough gain/attenuation to do so. You’d be operating outside of specs at that point.
When the input is within specs, *the unit is able to balance 60dB worth of difference in power between channels*. *Except for the case of two strictly adjacent channels ON THE SAME INPUT. In that case the maximum difference that the unit is able to compensate for is 30dB. Something outside of that is a rare scenario, means you are receiving two channels with more than 30dB of difference from the same antenna*


----------



## rabbit73

TelevesTech said:


> With regards to the Avant X mentioned, a couple comments :
> 
> Always put a 75 ohm terminator load on the main *input* (middle connector on bottom) when adjusting, so the output is correctly loaded and there are no impedance mismatches during adjustment.


*input?*
Shouldn't that be 75 ohm terminator on the output?




























Otherwise, good advice. Thank you.


----------



## TelevesTech

rabbit73 said:


> *input?*
> Shouldn't that be 75 ohm terminator on the output?
> 
> View attachment 3184288
> 
> 
> View attachment 3184290
> 
> 
> View attachment 3184291
> 
> 
> Otherwise, good advice. Thank you.


My mistake, typing away too fast probably. Thanks for the heads up. Yes, *it needs to be loaded with a 75 ohm terminator on the MAIN output* (the middle connector on the bottom) when adjusting the unit. The reason is the Avant will detect the level at that point when adjusting the gain of each individual filter, and if the port is not correctly terminated mismatches will occur and the gain adjustment will not be accurate.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

cpalmer2k said:


> My issue is the closest stations are between 63-52 dB in signal strength and the weakest stations are between 24-14 dB. The strongest stations essentially don't need any pre-amp at all, but the weakest ones need the full power of the pre-amp. My plan was to use a jan jenca channel pass filter to just pass the three weakest stations to the Pre-Amp with the second cable and have all the rest come in directly.
> 
> I may be wrong, but based on my reading of videobruce's review of the Advant X and the discussions of the Televes Pre-Amps wouldn't that be too big of a range for it to compensate for if I just feed everything in directly?
> 
> ​


I still say the AGC Pre-amp would be a good fit for you. 15 dB adjustment automatically. Didn't VideoBruce get that figured out?


----------



## LaserBeamSC

Channel Master has new 2 and 4 port booster/distribution amps on the market. They are for OTA only unlike the Ultra Mini’s with FM and 4G/5G filtering and is not compatible with cable and satellite. As usual with Channel Master the noise figure is “typically less than 2db”. 









TV Antenna Booster 2


Channel Master's TV Antenna Booster 2 can be used to split a TV antenna signal into two outputs and is an ideal for connecting multiple TV's to a TV antenna without losing signal. Designed exclusively for use with TV antennas and includes built-in out of band filters and 4G/5G LTE Filter.




www.channelmaster.com


----------



## hdtvluvr

Need help with an antenna. Some in the area claim to get 40+ channels with either a DB8e or a Clearstream 2V located in their attic. These are all 1 story houses so I would assume they are mounted close to 13 ft. above ground. Looking at Rabbitears.info, I'm not sure how they are doing it. Here is my rabbitears info: Rabbit Ears Info

I'd like to get CW, ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS and Fox. What are the chances?


----------



## rabbit73

hdtvluvr said:


> Need help with an antenna. Some in the area claim to get 40+ channels with either a DB8e or a Clearstream 2V located in their attic. These are all 1 story houses so I would assume they are mounted close to 13 ft. above ground. Looking at Rabbitears.info, I'm not sure how they are doing it. Here is my rabbitears info: Rabbit Ears Info
> 
> I'd like to get CW, ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS and Fox. What are the chances?


I think your chances are pretty good with the DB8E because WKFC carries NBC.
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=53465#station

Try different locations in your attic.

You might need a preamp.


----------



## hdtvluvr

rabbit73 said:


> I think your chances are pretty good with the DB8E because WKFC carries NBC.
> https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=53465#station
> 
> Try different locations in your attic.
> 
> You might need a preamp.



Thanks. I have ordered one but it will be a few months before I can get it installed.


----------



## hdtvluvr

Secondary question. I'll need 2 90 degree RG6 connectors. One at the wall outlet and one at the back of the TV. Looking at some on Amazon, some reviews say the expensive ones look and act like the cheap one. Which connector should I purchase? Brand, part #, or link would be appreciated.


----------



## jkeldo

hdtvluvr said:


> Need help with an antenna. Some in the area claim to get 40+ channels with either a DB8e or a Clearstream 2V located in their attic. These are all 1 story houses so I would assume they are mounted close to 13 ft. above ground. Looking at Rabbitears.info, I'm not sure how they are doing it. Here is my rabbitears info: Rabbit Ears Info
> 
> I'd like to get CW, ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS and Fox. What are the chances?


You have to keep in mind that the RabbitEars report is a good estimate but you don't know until you try your setup. One of the stations which is listed as Poor on my report is actually stronger than one listed as Fair. Terrain, other buildings, trees/leaves can all influence your reception. I've never tried the DB8e but I do have the DB4e which can receive from around 60 miles away and I have a preamp on that as well as another antenna, a Clearstream4 with a preamp pointing in another direction. The preamps are Winegard LNA-200 but I've used the RCA TVPRAMP1Z(R) with similar results. The Clearstream 2v is a good antenna which I use for a bedroom tv indoors and I was going to try it in place of the DB4e but when it started getting cold and snowy, I decided to put that off until the spring. Which preamp did you order?


----------



## hdtvluvr

jkeldo said:


> You have to keep in mind that the RabbitEars report is a good estimate but you don't know until you try your setup. One of the stations which is listed as Poor on my report is actually stronger than one listed as Fair. Terrain, other buildings, trees/leaves can all influence your reception. I've never tried the DB8e but I do have the DB4e which can receive from around 60 miles away and I have a preamp on that as well as another antenna, a Clearstream4 with a preamp pointing in another direction. The preamps are Winegard LNA-200 but I've used the RCA TVPRAMP1Z(R) with similar results. The Clearstream 2v is a good antenna which I use for a bedroom tv indoors and I was going to try it in place of the DB4e but when it started getting cold and snowy, I decided to put that off until the spring. Which preamp did you order?



I haven't ordered a preamp. I'm going to try this without a preamp. Others in the area didn't mention using one.


----------



## jkeldo

hdtvluvr said:


> I haven't ordered a preamp. I'm going to try this without a preamp. Others in the area didn't mention using one.


Sorry, I thought you mentioned that but it was Rabbit. But something to keep in mind if your signals are marginal since an attic installation will decrease the signals in any event.


----------



## hdtvluvr

I do need the comment below answered though.



hdtvluvr said:


> Secondary question. I'll need 2 90 degree RG6 connectors. One at the wall outlet and one at the back of the TV. Looking at some on Amazon, some reviews say the expensive ones look and act like the cheap one. Which connector should I purchase? Brand, part #, or link would be appreciated.


----------



## rabbit73

https://www.techtoolsupply.com/3Ghz-Right-Angle-Coax-F-Adapter-p/f90-hr.htm

https://www.newark.com/amphenol-rf/...KNC-GUSA-GEN-Shopping-NewStructure-Connectors




























Monster F-Video Coaxial Cable w/Right Angle Connector 1,2 or 4 Meter Lengths NIP | eBay


----------



## hdtvluvr

rabbit73 said:


> https://www.newark.com/amphenol-rf/...KNC-GUSA-GEN-Shopping-NewStructure-Connectors


Thanks, I've ordered 2.


----------



## hdtvluvr

rabbit73 said:


> I think your chances are pretty good with the DB8E because WKFC carries NBC.
> https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=53465#station


I was looking through the stations at the link you provided. There are several DISPLAY channels that have different PHYSICAL channels. Here are a couple examples (2-1 and 6-1):










How do these get resolved when trying to view them? The antennas are within a few degrees apart (for 2-1 it is 110.3 and 108.4) so it would seem that I could potentially get them all.


----------



## Trip in VA

If you don't have an ATSC 3.0 receiver, you won't see both.

- Trip


----------



## hdtvluvr

Trip in VA said:


> If you don't have an ATSC 3.0 receiver, you won't see both.
> 
> - Trip


ok. So which physical channel will override the other?


----------



## Trip in VA

In this specific case, RF11 and RF28 are ATSC 3.0 signals and wouldn't be received by a 1.0-only receiver. You can see the full list here: https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=atsc3

- Trip


----------



## hdtvluvr

Sorry but I'm still confused. My TV is a TCL 65S435. Specs say that it has a tuner type of ATSC / NTSC / Clear QAM and in the description of the TV it says it has an advanced digital tuner. Is this ATSC 1.0?

If my tv tuner is 1.0, how do I know which display channels I'll receive? Is 1.0 and 3.0 transmitted on the same tower and same physical channel? I just read "the FCC requires broadcasters to simulcast their channels in both ATSC 1.0 and ATSC 3.0 until at least February 2023". If it isn't on the same tower and physical channel, how do I find out the information? All I have to go by is the Rabbit Ears report. Rabbit Ears Info


----------



## Primestar31

hdtvluvr said:


> Sorry but I'm still confused. My TV is a TCL 65S435. Specs say that it has a tuner type of ATSC / NTSC / Clear QAM and in the description of the TV it says it has an advanced digital tuner. Is this ATSC 1.0?
> 
> If my tv tuner is 1.0, how do I know which display channels I'll receive? Is 1.0 and 3.0 transmitted on the same tower and same physical channel? I just read "the FCC requires broadcasters to simulcast their channels in both ATSC 1.0 and ATSC 3.0 until at least February 2023". If it isn't on the same tower and physical channel, how do I find out the information? All I have to go by is the Rabbit Ears report. Rabbit Ears Info


Yes, your tv set is ATSC 1.0 ONLY for purposes of this discussion. You'll ONLY receive channels from ATSC 1.0 stations, IF you are using an antenna. It doesn't matter what towers any of them are on. IF you can receive them on an antenna and watch them, they are ATSC 1.0 PERIOD.

NTSC was the pre-ATSC 1.0 system, and is now obsolete for OTA broadcasting. Clear QAM is cable tv that's not encrypted, which is now mostly obsolete for most cable companies/areas.


----------



## hdtvluvr

I've got it now. I reviewed Trip in VA's link and now see that the simulcast is a different "station" (different call letters). Thanks for everyone's patience.


----------



## hdtvluvr

Still working on getting all the parts for my spring antenna installation. I've ordered the Channel Master LTE/5G Filter. I'd rather go ahead and install one to pe proactive. Should this be mounted at the TV or the antenna? The antenna side would require a short pigtail but no big deal. The way it is designed, it looks like it may be designed for the TV end. Will coax act as an antenna for 5G thus necessitating installation at the TV instead of antenna? Would like to get in the attic once and be done. But then again, as some have said, I may need a preamp. If I put the LTE/5G filter at the antenna, would the preamp be between the antenna and the LTE/5G filter or after? And which preamp would be needed for a single TV line? I won't purchase it ahead of time but it would be nice to have one in my notes to order.


----------



## Gibson_s

You want the Filter BEFORE any amplification, so before your preamp. Having the amp 'amplify' the unwanted signals would be counter productive. 

The CM one works, I bought a knock off on Amazon for a ridiculous price and it was a total piece of junk, they even blocked me from reviewing it.

At that distance, an attic build might not get you all your channels. I can't get a channel reliably in my attic that is 14 miles away and can't even sniff one that is a little over 20. A line of sight outside vs through building materials is a huge difference. The signal is stronger outside, if you can't mount anything outside, then you have to go medieval on the Gain in your attic.


----------



## nathill

This is a quality LTE filter also. Have to wonder if the CM model and this HDHomeRun model aren't the same.








Amazon.com: SiliconDust LPF-608M LTE Filter for TV Antennas USA 2020 Standard 600/608/618MHz : Electronics


Amazon.com: SiliconDust LPF-608M LTE Filter for TV Antennas USA 2020 Standard 600/608/618MHz : Electronics



www.amazon.com


----------



## jkeldo

hdtvluvr said:


> Still working on getting all the parts for my spring antenna installation. I've ordered the Channel Master LTE/5G Filter. I'd rather go ahead and install one to pe proactive. Should this be mounted at the TV or the antenna? The antenna side would require a short pigtail but no big deal. The way it is designed, it looks like it may be designed for the TV end. Will coax act as an antenna for 5G thus necessitating installation at the TV instead of antenna? Would like to get in the attic once and be done. But then again, as some have said, I may need a preamp. If I put the LTE/5G filter at the antenna, would the preamp be between the antenna and the LTE/5G filter or after? And which preamp would be needed for a single TV line? I won't purchase it ahead of time but it would be nice to have one in my notes to order.


I recall about a year ago, Primestar had tried a filter both ways and I remember someone else asking a similar question and posting these links:

Here is a post regarding a Channel Master LTE filter installed at the tv: #18,022

And when it was installed outside: #18,039

Other information: #18,041


----------



## hdtvluvr

So it sounds like it should go at the antenna. Thanks. That was what I was planning. Seems that if it is better that way then the connectors on the filter are backwards. Should screw onto the antenna output and have a male for the coax to TV. But not difficult to fix.

Now to find out what preamp would be best should one be needed. I would only need 1 coax in and 1 coax out. No filtering. And I see some come in Medium, High and dual (low/high). Is low on the dual the same as Medium on a single power? And can the amp be installed downstream of the antenna? Planning on running the antenna cable to an already installed low voltage cabinet to tie it into the coax to the TV. If I could put the amp there, it would be easier/better.


----------



## jkeldo

hdtvluvr said:


> So it sounds like it should go at the antenna. Thanks. That was what I was planning. Seems that if it is better that way then the connectors on the filter are backwards. Should screw onto the antenna output and have a male for the coax to TV. But not difficult to fix.
> 
> Now to find out what preamp would be best should one be needed. I would only need 1 coax in and 1 coax out. No filtering. And I see some come in Medium, High and dual (low/high). Is low on the dual the same as Medium on a single power? And can the amp be installed downstream of the antenna? Planning on running the antenna cable to an already installed low voltage cabinet to tie it into the coax to the TV. If I could put the amp there, it would be easier/better.


Most preamps that I've used have two parts: the amplifier and the power inserter. The amplifier should be at the antenna or as close as possible so you are maximizing the signal received. The power inserter goes somewhere near your tv or cabinet in your case I suppose. I've used mostly older Radio Shack, RCA TVPRAMP12E, and Winegard LNA-200 models. The Radio Shack was adjustable but too much output can cause your amp or tv to overload. The RCA and Winegard models I've used don't overload with my Sony tv but the signal is split three ways.


----------



## Gibson_s

hdtvluvr said:


> So it sounds like it should go at the antenna. Thanks. That was what I was planning. Seems that if it is better that way then the connectors on the filter are backwards. Should screw onto the antenna output and have a male for the coax to TV. But not difficult to fix.
> 
> Now to find out what preamp would be best should one be needed. I would only need 1 coax in and 1 coax out. No filtering. And I see some come in Medium, High and dual (low/high). Is low on the dual the same as Medium on a single power? And can the amp be installed downstream of the antenna? Planning on running the antenna cable to an already installed low voltage cabinet to tie it into the coax to the TV. If I could put the amp there, it would be easier/better.


If I remember your signals are around 50+ miles away and you are doing an attic setup. I'd go with a high gain antenna and High gain preamp to overcome the losses you'll have through the attic's building materials.

Preamp has to be close to the antenna to boost the signal down the coax cable for no loss. Up to you though, can always experiment with what works best and send back equipment you don't use. I can't imagine no preamp for near fringe inside your attic, however. Hopefully you don't have a metal roof or are trying to get a signal through cement blocks or something.


----------



## hdtvluvr

jkeldo said:


> Most preamps that I've used have two parts: the amplifier and the power inserter. The amplifier should be at the antenna or as close as possible so you are maximizing the signal received. The power inserter goes somewhere near your tv or cabinet in your case I suppose. I've used mostly older Radio Shack, RCA TVPRAMP12E, and Winegard LNA-200 models. The Radio Shack was adjustable but too much output can cause your amp or tv to overload. The RCA and Winegard models I've used don't overload with my Sony tv but the signal is split three ways.


Thanks for letting me know the best place for the amplifier.



Gibson_s said:


> If I remember your signals are around 50+ miles away and you are doing an attic setup. I'd go with a high gain antenna and High gain preamp to overcome the losses you'll have through the attic's building materials.
> 
> Preamp has to be close to the antenna to boost the signal down the coax cable for no loss. Up to you though, can always experiment with what works best and send back equipment you don't use. I can't imagine no preamp for near fringe inside your attic, however. Hopefully you don't have a metal roof or are trying to get a signal through cement blocks or something.


No metal rood or cement blocks. Just plywood and asphalt shingles.

I'm going to install the Antenna Direct DB8e antenna. Specs say 70+ miles. Others in the area say they are using it with great results. Can't say for sure if they are the same, closer or actually further away to the towers than I am or by how much. It was posted on a local forum for the area in FL. 

Channel Master has:

CM7778V3 16dB $65
CM7777V3 26dB $65
CM7777HD Dual 17/30 dB $89 but have read the switch can be problematic. Blocks LTE Interference from 3G/4G/5G Smartphones and Transmitters so I wouldn't need the LTE/5G filter I have on hand.
CM7778HD Pro 20/26 dB for UHF $99 Blocks LTE Interference from 3G/4G/5G Smartphones and Transmitters so I wouldn't need the LTE/5G filter I have on hand.

I like the latter as it has low and high gain and would allow the addition of a separate VHF antenna should I ever need one. Would just have to also remember to change a switch setting inside. And I don't know which VHF antenna to get for 50+ miles. Attic space is limited too. I know there is space for the DB8 but I think VHF antennas are long and wide. Currently there is a possibility of channels 8 and 11 that might be nice to have but aren't major networks.


----------



## Primestar31

@hdtvluvr You really expect *maximum* mileage ratings (READ: marketing HYPE) on antennas to be 100% uptime of the time achievable while they are mounted INSIDE your attic?

You shouldn't.

Nor should you EVER believe that compensating for either a poor choice of an antenna, OR a poor location for said antenna, can be done well by picking a "better" or "Stronger/more powerful preamp".


----------



## hdtvluvr

Primestar31 said:


> @hdtvluvr You really expect *maximum* mileage ratings (READ: marketing HYPE) on antennas to be 100% uptime of the time achievable while they are mounted INSIDE your attic?
> 
> You shouldn't.
> 
> Nor should you EVER believe that compensating for either a poor choice of an antenna, OR a poor location for said antenna, can be done well by picking a "better" or "Stronger/more powerful preamp".


Thanks. I knew that there was marketing hype but isn't the antenna I chose a good one for towers at about 54 miles? I realize the attic isn't the best choice but it is all I can do at that home. I know about the FCC rules, etc. but there are other things involved preventing outside mounting. I'm really hoping that just the antenna in the attic works as others have stated in the area. But I'm not at their house.


----------



## Primestar31

hdtvluvr said:


> Thanks. I knew that there was marketing hype but isn't the antenna I chose a good one for towers at about 54 miles? I realize the attic isn't the best choice but it is all I can do at that home. I know about the FCC rules, etc. but there are other things involved preventing outside mounting. I'm really hoping that just the antenna in the attic works as others have stated in the area. But I'm not at their house.


Well, an 8-bay antenna in general is pretty good for UHF. It may pick up some higher VHF, though you shouldn't expect that, and I don't know if YOU have any VHF stations that are must have. It MAY work to get your UHF stations at 54 miles while being inside your attic, IF you at least have enough space to actually aim it towards your stations, AND they are in a fairly close cluster together. Figure that attic attenuation due to building materials, ect, at about 40-50%~ of your optimal signal level if it was out in the open, in the best area for you.

IF it's really your only option at the moment, and you really want to spend the time and money knowing it might not end well, I'd say go for it and hope for the best. You may get lucky, and it'll work out acceptably for you.

As for your best option for a preamp, I'd suggest this one as your best bet to work well for you: https://www.nesselectronics.com/pro...-gain-control-agc?_pos=9&_sid=04480ba3b&_ss=r


----------



## LaserBeamSC

The DB8e is a great antenna! 2 of the preamps you listed, the CM7778V3 and CM7777V3 do not have filtering above 609MHz according to the Tech Specs on the Channel Master website. CM does have new distribution amps with all the latest filtering that could be used as a preamp called the Booster 2 and 4. CM has always had solid preamps in my experiences but found The Juice made by Antennas Direct performed better than the CM7777HD. If you really want the best bang for your buck in IMO, try the Kitz Technologies or Televes line of preamps. There is a lot written about these on this great forum.

Edit: I should note the CM7778V3 and CM7777V3 DOES have filtering above 609MHz but it is pre repack and begins above 700MHz meaning RF37-RF51 is not filtered.


----------



## hdtvluvr

Primestar31 said:


> Well, an 8-bay antenna in general is pretty good for UHF. It may pick up some higher VHF, though you shouldn't expect that, and I don't know if YOU have any VHF stations that are must have. It MAY work to get your UHF stations at 54 miles while being inside your attic, IF you at least have enough space to actually aim it towards your stations, AND they are in a fairly close cluster together. Figure that attic attenuation due to building materials, ect, at about 40-50%~ of your optimal signal level if it was out in the open, in the best area for you.
> 
> IF it's really your only option at the moment, and you really want to spend the time and money knowing it might not end well, I'd say go for it and hope for the best. You may get lucky, and it'll work out acceptably for you.
> 
> As for your best option for a preamp, I'd suggest this one as your best bet to work well for you: https://www.nesselectronics.com/pro...-gain-control-agc?_pos=9&_sid=04480ba3b&_ss=r



The only potential VHF stations I'd be interested in are 8 & 11. Towers are in a span of 108 deg and 114 deg magnetic direction from the home. And are between 54 and 56.8 miles.

That Televes preamp looks good but is the photo incorrect in your link? There are 4 connections. I can understand 1 out to the PSU, one to the antenna. What are the other 2 for? If this photo shows the 2 input model, there still seems to still be 1 extra connection but for what? Seems the user can manually adjust the gain but it has automatic gain control so I'm confused. Is there a setting for automatic versus user selectable? Would it just be a simple install and be done for me or would I have to keep "playing" with it?


----------



## Primestar31

hdtvluvr said:


> The only potential VHF stations I'd be interested in are 8 & 11. Towers are in a span of 108 deg and 114 deg magnetic direction from the home. And are between 54 and 56.8 miles.
> 
> That Televes preamp looks good but is the photo incorrect in your link? There are 4 connections. I can understand 1 out to the PSU, one to the antenna. What are the other 2 for? If this photo shows the 2 input model, there still seems to still be 1 extra connection but for what? Seems the user can manually adjust the gain but it has automatic gain control so I'm confused. Is there a setting for automatic versus user selectable? Would it just be a simple install and be done for me or would I have to keep "playing" with it?


They use the same case for other model preamps, so have 4 to different uses. THIS particular preamp, only uses the two OUTER ones, input and output/power injection. The two inner ones are plugged.

You can't manually adjust the gain, it's total AGC controlled. It's a simple install of just screwing on the rf connectors, and plugging in the power inserter.


----------



## hdtvluvr

Since it is on sale, I just ordered one to have on hand just in case. I won't be installing all of this until April but I want to have everything that I may need ahead of time. Thanks for everyone's help.


----------



## Gibson_s

Primestar31 said:


> @hdtvluvr You really expect *maximum* mileage ratings (READ: marketing HYPE) on antennas to be 100% uptime of the time achievable while they are mounted INSIDE your attic?
> 
> You shouldn't.
> 
> Nor should you EVER believe that compensating for either a poor choice of an antenna, OR a poor location for said antenna, can be done well by picking a "better" or "Stronger/more powerful preamp".


He is picking one of the highest gain antennas on the market for UHF. What the attic does to the signals will be hit or miss. I never knew the actual dimensions of my attic until I tried to stuff a small outdoor antenna in there, it was pretty darned tight, especially since I can't walk in there and had to squeeze it disassembled and reassemble in the opening - which I could barely fit my shoulders through.

At my place I can get RF 7 (VHF) on rabbit ears in my bedroom better than I can get it with a UHF/VHF combo antenna in my Attic (14 Miles away). Anytime I hear "attic build" I always talk about the signal loss but some don't have any other options. If he hooks it up and doesn't get half of his stations, oh well - he tried.


----------



## jkeldo

hdtvluvr said:


> Thanks. I knew that there was marketing hype but isn't the antenna I chose a good one for towers at about 54 miles? I realize the attic isn't the best choice but it is all I can do at that home. I know about the FCC rules, etc. but there are other things involved preventing outside mounting. I'm really hoping that just the antenna in the attic works as others have stated in the area. But I'm not at their house.


I do recall reading about some issues when using the DB8e in the angled position as opposed to the straight one like the DB4e as I think it had something to do with multipath and rejection of strong signals which might not be an issue for you. The DB8e and Clearstream 4 Max are both rated at 70 miles + but that is optimistic for many locations.

I like the older Clearstream 4 (with reflectors, 70 + mile range) as I've found that in certain locations with weak signals, it did better than some others like the DB4e, Clearstream 2, the GE Attic Antenna, and RCA ANT705Z. Those others are rated at 60-65 miles range and more compact. So you should do better with the larger DB8e but it depends on how the signals are reaching your destination and the attic will reduce the signals in any event.

By chance before it became colder at my location, I hung up my DB4e on an old mounting hook from a previous Radio Shack mini antenna which worked well but not for distant stations. I knew there was a distant signal reaching the old antenna since the Sony tv would show a 12-13 db SNR but no lock unless there were great weather conditions. I just put up the DB4e with a Winegard LNA-200 preamp and the station came in with around 16-18 db SNR. Many days, it's higher than that. This station is 60 miles from my location (WKBN) and is Red on my RabbitEars report but with a signal margin of around 15db so it's a decent signal compared to the other two stations from that area. The other two are much lower in the signal margin but do decode here and there so I need to try moving the antenna when it's warmer and see what changes. I also plan on trying the Clearstream 4 in that general location since it works well in another spot for another weak station. So you will have to experiment as that is really the only way to find the best antenna as well as location. I might try another preamp but at this point, I'm going with the antenna switch first.


----------



## jkeldo

Gibson_s said:


> He is picking one of the highest gain antennas on the market for UHF. What the attic does to the signals will be hit or miss. I never knew the actual dimensions of my attic until I tried to stuff a small outdoor antenna in there, it was pretty darned tight, especially since I can't walk in there and had to squeeze it disassembled and reassemble in the opening - which I could barely fit my shoulders through.
> 
> At my place I can get RF 7 (VHF) on rabbit ears in my bedroom better than I can get it with a UHF/VHF combo antenna in my Attic (14 Miles away). Anytime I hear "attic build" I always talk about the signal loss but some don't have any other options. If he hooks it up and doesn't get half of his stations, oh well - he tried.


Just because the antenna is high gain or larger doesn't mean that it will work any better. The OP will just have to try it and see. As you said, your old rabbit ears worked better than the attic one and they're both inside which shows that you never know where the strongest signals are or what is going to work best.


----------



## Gibson_s

jkeldo said:


> Just because the antenna is high gain or larger doesn't mean that it will work any better. The OP will just have to try it and see. As you said, your old rabbit ears worked better than the attic one and they're both inside which shows that you never know where the strongest signals are or what is going to work best.


You are basically repeating what I've said but my signals aren't 50 something miles away, that station is 14 miles away.

Something near fringe he will need the size and gain made for that distance. He even stated that others in the neighborhood are using the same antenna.

Trial and Error is always a factor. What works in one place won't necessarily work in another. He could basically get awful reception and once he puts it outside he gets everything he wants. Attic builds aren't ideal.

I get 30 stations with my rabbit ears, 40 with the attic antenna and 59 with my antenna build outside. Big difference. One day I'll take out the attic antenna and put it outside... rabbit ears are on my vintage FM tuner.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

hdtvluvr said:


> The only potential VHF stations I'd be interested in are 8 & 11. Towers are in a span of 108 deg and 114 deg magnetic direction from the home. And are between 54 and 56.8 miles.
> 
> That Televes preamp looks good but is the photo incorrect in your link? There are 4 connections. I can understand 1 out to the PSU, one to the antenna. What are the other 2 for? If this photo shows the 2 input model, there still seems to still be 1 extra connection but for what? Seems the user can manually adjust the gain but it has automatic gain control so I'm confused. Is there a setting for automatic versus user selectable? Would it just be a simple install and be done for me or would I have to keep "playing" with it?


One


hdtvluvr said:


> Thanks. I knew that there was marketing hype but isn't the antenna I chose a good one for towers at about 54 miles? I realize the attic isn't the best choice but it is all I can do at that home. I know about the FCC rules, etc. but there are other things involved preventing outside mounting. I'm really hoping that just the antenna in the attic works as others have stated in the area. But I'm not at their house.


One thing that I don't think anybody's mentioned is low noise preamps. I'm thinking of Kitz Technologies. The KT-200 is the lowest noise preamp that you can purchase. Some may challenge me on this but the less noise, the higher the antenna signal. 

In other words using a low noise preamp would make your antenna _seem larger_ than using those previously mentioned Channel Master preamps. The CM preamps are quite noisy still. I've seen a lot of independent testing and others may back me up here. It's still the favorite choice of DXers also. 26dB gain with less than .6dB noise. Strong aluminum case and lightning protection also. I believe LTE filtering is built in also.



KT-200 TV Booster


----------



## jkeldo

Gibson_s said:


> You are basically repeating what I've said but my signals aren't 50 something miles away, that station is 14 miles away.
> 
> Something near fringe he will need the size and gain made for that distance. He even stated that others in the neighborhood are using the same antenna.
> 
> Trial and Error is always a factor. What works in one place won't necessarily work in another. He could basically get awful reception and once he puts it outside he gets everything he wants. Attic builds aren't ideal.
> 
> I get 30 stations with my rabbit ears, 40 with the attic antenna and 59 with my antenna build outside. Big difference. One day I'll take out the attic antenna and put it outside... rabbit ears are on my vintage FM tuner.


Antenna size does not guarantee results. I've read enough reports of disappointed DB8e owners to know that but since others near the OP have used them, it might work for him but no guarantees. A lot depends on where the signal is and it may turn out that going lower is better or the attic may work out in this case. Before the repack, there were some stations I could receive reliably indoors from 60 miles away with a Clearstream 4 and a preamp so it just depends. The peak 17.4 dBi advertised gain of the DB8e is at Channel 52 which isn't used anymore. Hopefully, it will work out for the OP.


----------



## Gibson_s

I was considering the Kitz units until I saw their website and PayPal (who uses that anymore)? Not saying anything negative about their products because I trust people on this forum - but someone has to get their website out of 2006.


----------



## jkeldo

Gibson_s said:


> I was considering the Kitz units until I saw their website and PayPal (who uses that anymore)? Not saying anything negative about their products because I trust people on this forum - but someone has to get their website out of 2006.


PayPal is one of the most common payment sites and safe as well. As for Kitz, I never tried one but have heard mostly good things about the products.


----------



## Primestar31

jkeldo said:


> PayPal is one of the most common payment sites and safe as well. As for Kitz, I never tried one but have heard mostly good things about the products.


Personally, I love Paypal and have had an account since the first few years they started. Keeps me from having to share my credit card around, which isn't good with all the constant hacking of sites going on.

As for Kitztech, I've used the KT-200-Coax versions of their preamps, BUT, they are the older 2015 model without any filters for anything. They are good at low noise and reasonably high gain. They are easy to swamp with 4g/LTE though. They WERE one of the best, and are still worth considering in certain cases. However, IMO, the Televes T-Force model pre-amps are now superior in every way to the Kitztechs. I swapped out my KT-200 for a 560383 Televes, and it keeps my OTA stations up and running better than the Kitztech.


----------



## jkeldo

Primestar31 said:


> Personally, I love Paypal and have had an account since the first few years they started. Keeps me from having to share my credit card around, which isn't good with all the constant hacking of sites going on.
> 
> As for Kitztech, I've used the KT-200-Coax versions of their preamps, BUT, they are the older 2015 model without any filters for anything. They are good at low noise and reasonably high gain. They are easy to swamp with 4g/LTE though. They WERE one of the best, and are still worth considering in certain cases. However, IMO, the Televes T-Force model pre-amps are now superior in every way to the Kitztechs. I swapped out my KT-200 for a 560383 Televes, and it keeps my OTA stations up and running better than the Kitztech.


Thanks for that information. I keep saying I wasn't going to try any more preamps but I've heard some good reports about the Televes so I just might when the weather warms up in the spring. I agree with what you said about PayPal since they have been safe as far as I know and I've had an account for years. Too many breaches at various companies are a cause for concern.


----------



## Gibson_s

jkeldo said:


> PayPal is one of the most common payment sites and safe as well. As for Kitz, I never tried one but have heard mostly good things about the products.


Must be because I live in a different country, but PayPal rips you off on exchange rates, I've had several suspicious charges that I had to fight to get refunded and they were going to charge me fees because I hadn't used the account in while. So it's gone and I never missed it.

I've bought and sold many items online without it and have never had problems. I only used PayPal years ago for Ebay stuff and have no interest in that anymore.

Kitz should look into a retailer carrying his stuff or expanding his payment options, updating website, etc. It would probably boost some sales. I don't know if it's one guy making these by hand in his garage, so I can't say how big his operation is. All I can say is my Bakery down the street has a better Website and payment options.


----------



## hdtvluvr

I also really like PayPal. If a website offers Discover, MC, Visa and PayPal, I 99% of the time use PayPal. Don't want my CC everywhere on the net. Especially if I only plan on buying 1 time from a vendor.


----------



## Calaveras

Primestar31 said:


> However, IMO, the Televes T-Force model pre-amps are now superior in every way to the Kitztechs. I swapped out my KT-200 for a 560383 Televes, and it keeps my OTA stations up and running better than the Kitztech.


I just ran a test here comparing the KT-200 and the the 560383. My weakest UHF stations are on opposite ends of the UHF band, RF14 and RF35. The KT-200 gives a few db higher SNR on RF14 but the 560383 gives a few dB higher SNR on RF35. It's not clear as to why this is so. I don't have any strong LTE signals when pointing at the TV transmitters so overload is not an issue. All the other stations are stronger and it makes no difference which preamp is used. Since RF35 SNR is only 14-16 dB with the 560383, I'm using it even though reception is not 100% but it's 0% with the KT-200. RF14 is pretty much 100% with either preamp.

Attached is a spectrum analyzer capture of the UHF band with the antenna pointed at the main transmitter site. The red line is the noise floor and the green line is the 15 dB SNR line. Any signal below the green line cannot be decoded. You can see how weak RF14 and RF35 are. Signals in faded yellow are in other directions and should be ignored. Most of those stations will not decode because of mulitpath when not pointed at them.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

Gibson_s said:


> I was considering the Kitz units until I saw their website and PayPal (who uses that anymore)? Not saying anything negative about their products because I trust people on this forum - but someone has to get their website out of 2006.


You can pay for the preamp by credit card. Just pick up the phone and call. That's how I did it when I ordered mine. Simple and easy. 

Website. What do you see as the problem?


----------



## TelevesTech

Thought this would be of interest for some.

A new repack-ready model of the Televes DAT LR Mix is now available. The improvements in this new model (P/N 149884) come both from the hardware of the antenna and the built-in T-Force preamplifier, namely:

- The triple boom yagi-corner UHF section of the antenna has been redesigned to optimize it for the new repack frequencies, with the UHF band limited to RF14-RF36 (608MHz). This model uses wider UHF elements and spacing, achieving an improvement in raw antenna gain between 1-2dB across the UHF band when compared to the previous model.

- The VHF High corner reflector that takes care of RF7-RF13 on the DAT LR Mix has also been redesigned, using a larger VHF reflector and other minor adjustments, achieving in this case a raw gain improvement of 3dB across the VHF High band when compared to the previous model.

- The built-in T-Force preamplifier has also been redesigned from the ground up. The filtering has been changed to 608MHz vs the 698MHz of the previous model of course, but more importantly, now the dipole features two completely independent VHF and UHF automatically gain controlled preamplifiers in the assembly. This allows the preamplifier to adjust the gain independently for both bands, which is beneficial in situations where the signals received in UHF are much stronger than VHF and vice-versa. In the previous generation there would be situations where very strong signals in one band could limit the maximun gain applied while the other band could benefit from more amplification. The preamplifier now has total flexibility to adjust its gain to the optimal value for each band independently. It is basically two preamplifers in one, each with its own MMIC enabled T-Force chipset, this also allows for much better out of band filtering as well. The maximum total gain of each preamplifier has also been reduced slightly.


----------



## TelevesTech

In case this is of interest for some folks.

There is also a completely redesigned new repack-ready model of the Televes DAT LR Mix with Low VHF capabilities. The improvements in this new model (P/N 148383) come both from the hardware of the antenna and the built-in T-Force preamplifier, namely:

- The triple boom yagi-corner UHF section of the antenna has been redesigned to optimize it for the new repack frequencies, with the UHF band limited to RF14-RF36 (608MHz). This model uses wider UHF elements and spacing, achieving an improvement in raw antenna gain between 1-2dB across the UHF band when compared to the previous model.

- The VHF High corner reflector that takes care of RF7-RF13 on the DAT LR Mix has also been redesigned, using a larger VHF reflector and other minor adjustments, achieving in this case a raw gain improvement of 3dB across the VHF High band when compared to the previous model.

- The VHF Low section receiving RF2-RF6 on the DAT LR Mix has also been redesigned, adding a dedicated reflector and other geometry adjustments, achieving raw gain improvement of 5dB across the VHF Low band when compared to the previous model.

- The built-in T-Force preamplifier has also been redesigned from the ground up. The filtering has been changed to 608MHz vs the 698MHz of the previous model of course, but more importantly, now the dipole features two completely independent VHF and UHF automatically gain controlled preamplifiers in the assembly. This allows the preamplifier to adjust the gain independently for both bands, which is beneficial in situations where the signals received in UHF are much stronger than VHF and vice-versa. In the previous generation there would be situations where very strong signals in one band could limit the maximun gain applied while the other band could benefit from more amplification. The preamplifier now has total flexibility to adjust its gain to the optimal value for each band independently. It is basically two preamplifers in one, each with its own MMIC enabled T-Force chipset, this also allows for much better out of band filtering as well. The maximum total gain of each preamplifier has also been reduced slightly.


----------



## tylerSC

Will there be a smaller or medium range version of either of these Televes antennas as there was before? Nice to see the repack adjustments and the redesigned preamp. But I may not need the Long Range version.


----------



## TelevesTech

tylerSC said:


> Will there be a smaller or medium range version of either of these Televes antennas as there was before? Nice to see the repack adjustments and the redesigned preamp. But I may not need the Long Range version.


There is, the repack-ready Ellipse Mix (P/N 148883). The UHF section of that antenna already peaks at around 600MHz on the pre-repack model and the High VHF section is well balanced with it so there are no changes on the antenna itself. The preamp has been updated with the same changes as the DAT LR models to better adapt it to the new band (all these preamps are antenna specific, however):


608MHz filtering
Independent automatic gain control per band
Slightly lower gain


----------



## hdtvluvr

If one was to order the Ellipse Mix (P/N 148383), how would they know they purchased one with the updated preamp? What is the supposed range of this antenna? Thinking if the DB8e doesn't work, this might be an option. Is there an option of this antenna without the preamp? I already have the preamp ordered.


----------



## TelevesTech

hdtvluvr said:


> If one was to order the Ellipse Mix (P/N 148383), how would they know they purchased one with the updated preamp? What is the supposed range of this antenna? Thinking if the DB8e doesn't work, this might be an option. Is there an option of this antenna without the preamp? I already have the preamp ordered.


P/N 148881 - Ellipse Mix pre repack
P/N 148883 - Ellipse Mix repack-ready (updated preamp)

There's no version of the antenna without the preamp.


----------



## Gibson_s

Who is the Televes dealer/distributor in Canada for the new models?


----------



## TelevesTech

Gibson_s said:


> Who is the Televes dealer/distributor in Canada for the new models?


We are lacking one at the moment. We worked with TDL in the past, but they are not really pushing the product.


----------



## Gibson_s

TelevesTech said:


> We are lacking one at the moment. We worked with TDL in the past, but they are not really pushing the product.


I see Lowes/Rona have a few older models with almost no stock. I know Canada is a small market but it looks like you have little to no distribution here.

When guys on here talk about the Televes amps, I can't find them here and if I do - they're marked up like crazy.

CM sells on Amazon.ca with their own store (at inflated prices vs their US store) so unsure if that is something you want.


----------



## TelevesTech

Gibson_s said:


> I see Lowes/Rona have a few older models with almost no stock. I know Canada is a small market but it looks like you have little to no distribution here.
> 
> When guys on here talk about the Televes amps, I can't find them here and if I do - they're marked up like crazy.
> 
> CM sells on Amazon.ca with their own store (at inflated prices vs their US store) so unsure if that is something you want.


TDL feeds those retailers, but they don't have any inventory that I know of. Certainly not of the new models.


----------



## LenL

Hi folks, Just discover this large antenna in the attack above the garage in a house we moved into in 2020. I have never seen a Yagi antenna like this before with this design. Here are some pictures. Wonder if any of you know the make and model? It may go back to the 60's or 70's?


----------



## Calaveras

LenL said:


> Hi folks, Just discover this large antenna in the attack above the garage in a house we moved into in 2020. I have never seen a Yagi antenna like this before with this design. Here are some pictures. Wonder if any of you know the make and model? It may go back to the 60's or 70's?


I don't know the make/model but it's certainly a low/high VHF antenna, no UHF.


----------



## Calaveras

hdtvluvr said:


> What is the supposed range of this antenna? Thinking if the DB8e doesn't work, this might be an option.


We would need a lot more info to be able to begin to answer those questions. First is your Rabbitears report. Second is the antenna location and the surrounding environment. Third is what sort of problems you're having with the DB8e. One or two problem stations or no reception at all? Antennas are not rated in range (miles). That's just marketing.


----------



## Gibson_s

Calaveras said:


> I don't know the make/model but it's certainly a low/high VHF antenna, no UHF.


I'd say those smaller elements look like UHF to me (pictured around the coax), they're not that large if you try to decipher those awful photos. They look no smaller than that 2x4 in front of it. I have a small CM antenna with varying length UHF elements like that. The arrangement definitely is strange.

How long would the element be for RF14?


----------



## LenL

This seems to be a very large YAGI UHF/VHF with smaller front elements for UHF. They are in front of the feed point and the back elements long enough for low VHF and High VHF. There are some other strange pieces to the antenna in the front, middle and back. It is not a plain vanilla YAGI. Thats why I was wondering if anyone has seen this beast berfore and if it can be identified.

I am working on trying to hook it up to a TV in the house.


----------



## Calaveras

If the diameter of the boom is 1" then from the last photo the directors are around 21", in the ballpark for channel 13 directors. The elements that the feed is connected to are too long for UHF.


----------



## Calaveras

LenL said:


> Hi folks, Just discover this large antenna in the attack above the garage in a house we moved into in 2020. I have never seen a Yagi antenna like this before with this design. Here are some pictures. Wonder if any of you know the make and model? It may go back to the 60's or 70's?


A little research turned up this Winegard Image from 1963:










Then some more research turned up this Electronic Service Dealer newsletter from July 1963 with an ad for Winegard preamps. See page 5:



https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Electronic-Service-Dealer/1963/Electronic-Service-Dealer-1963-07.pdf



The antennas pictured are not exactly the same as the one in your attic but the overall design is very similar. Notice that the boom and elements that have plastic endcaps have a "W" on them.

So right now I'm going with an antenna from the Winegard Colortron series in the early 1960's, low/high VHF, no UHF. 

By the mid to late 60's Winegard had changed their antennas to a more modern design that covered VHF and UHF.


----------



## Gibson_s

Looks like the C-41 pictured in that Winegard catalog. Small diagram but the number of elements, the spacing and the size looks right.

Willing to bet when the owner hooks it up, it'll still get some stations, as well.


----------



## LenL

Thanks Calaveras! I appreciate your work! 

However these pictures are missing a number of other distinct parts on my garage antenna. I will try to take some more pictures to better show all of the unique structure/elements that are part of this antenna and post them later today if I can get to it. I am also trying to hook it up and see what I can receive. The problem I have taking pictures is there is NO flooring and I have to be carefull I don't fall through the ceiling at worst or put my foot through at best. I will also look to see if I can find any brand id.

I may try to do some research too on the internet.


----------



## LenL

Calaveras,

I hooked it up and got great VHF and not so great UHF as you pointed out. I did get some UHF but not what I get from my small RCA 751. It is not useable as an antenna unless I could get better UHF.

So I don't think this is an option to use unless there is a way to make some modification to produce better UHF. What is odd about this antenna is all of the many elements devoted to only pick up VHF? I have some more pictures of the design especially the front part of the antenna which has the many smaller (Smaller than the elements at the back) elements. 

So if anyone has any idea on how to modify to add UHF I am all ears and eyes!


----------



## Calaveras

LenL said:


> Calaveras,
> 
> I hooked it up and got great VHF and not so great UHF as you pointed out. I did get some UHF but not what I get from my small RCA 751. It is not useable as an antenna unless I could get better UHF.
> 
> So I don't think this is an option to use unless there is a way to make some modification to produce better UHF. What is odd about this antenna is all of the many elements devoted to only pick up VHF? I have some more pictures of the design especially the front part of the antenna which has the many smaller (Smaller than the elements at the back) elements.
> 
> So if anyone has any idea on how to modify to add UHF I am all ears and eyes!


TV started out on VHF so early antennas like this one didn't have UHF. To add UHF get a VHF/UHF combiner and a separate UHF antenna.


----------



## nathill

I would personally use the monster for VHF, then add install one of many small UHF antennas available somewhere else in the attic.
There are UHF-VHF combiners available, and while I can't vouch for it personally, this sure looks like a good one!








JOINtenna


The Channel Master JOINtenna combines coaxial inputs from two individual outdoor TV antennas allowing for the distribution of two antennas on a single coaxial cable.




www.channelmaster.com




I would think it will be very difficult to add UHF to the monster you have.


----------



## LenL

Thanks nathill. The problem is this antenna also picks up some UHF so I think I would have to first separate out the UHF signal it does pick up before combining? Also the same with a separate UHF antenna that may pick up some VHF? I would need to separate out any VHF it picks up so there is clean UHF? The combine two clean bands?


----------



## Calaveras

LenL said:


> Thanks nathill. The problem is this antenna also picks up some UHF so I think I would have to first separate out the UHF signal it does pick up before combining? Also the same with a separate UHF antenna that may pick up some VHF? I would need to separate out any VHF it picks up so there is clean UHF? The combine two clean bands?


No. The VHF/UHF combiner has filters in it so the other band is filtered out. No issues there.


----------



## Gibson_s

LenL said:


> Thanks nathill. The problem is this antenna also picks up some UHF so I think I would have to first separate out the UHF signal it does pick up before combining? Also the same with a separate UHF antenna that may pick up some VHF? I would need to separate out any VHF it picks up so there is clean UHF? The combine two clean bands?


It probably picks up the lower UHF bands in the teens and the rest it wouldn't even sniff. Old antenna, I'd scrap it and get something else. Low VHF is basically useless in most areas.

You have the wires routed and such, just swap in a UHF antenna or high VHF/UHF (if you actually need VHF) combo that would be much smaller and point - done.


----------



## hdtvluvr

Did anyone notice that the wire looks like the old flat cable and not coax?


----------



## Gibson_s

hdtvluvr said:


> Did anyone notice that the wire looks like the old flat cable and not coax?


It probably has the 300ohm and a balun to 75ohm Coax like most other builds for decades... after all the OP hooked it up somehow.

My old Sansui tuner has 300ohm hookups still, no TV's made this century do.

Maybe if the guy is an FM buff I'd like to see how good reception he gets with it.


----------



## nathill

I gave you bad advice.
You're right, the combiner I absentmindedly recommended is simply a two-antenna combiner.
Try this, and I think you might avoid the hassle of bringing a combination antenna to the attic.








UHF VHF Antenna Combiner


Ideal for those that need to combine a UHF antenna and a VHF antenna this combiner will allow both signals down the same lead. Shop with Antennas Direct for all of your antenna and accessories needs.




store.antennasdirect.com




..
I still like my idea , as it might avoid you having to fool with a UHF-VHF antenna altogether. I'm guessing that old beast is still quite sufficient and possibly better than most any combination antenna you might buy in terms of VHF reception. Just my 2 cents!
You could hook it all up then fool around in the attic to find the best location to place the UHF antenna.


----------



## Gibson_s

OP has an RCA 751 combo antenna, why is he messing with this one if the other gives him good reception (or are there issues)?

One not so large high VHF element on top of my UHF bowtie gets me my 2 High VHF channels in my area that I need, don't know why the guy would want to spend time on it unless there was something he was searching for. If he just wants a hobby, then go for it. I'd personally not take the time with something if I have good reception with a tested performer like the 751.

Something like this gets me my RF 7 and 9 that I need in my local area, attached to my UHF bowtie. You don't need 6 foot long VHF elements anymore if there's no low VHF to catch. Mine is around 30" outstretched.


----------



## hdtvluvr

Gibson_s said:


> It probably has the 300ohm and a balun to 75ohm Coax like most other builds for decades... after all the OP hooked it up somehow.


Yes, but isn't there loss with that old cable? Shouldn't the balun be at the antenna and then coax to the TV?


----------



## Gibson_s

hdtvluvr said:


> Yes, but isn't there loss with that old cable? Shouldn't the balun be at the antenna and then coax to the TV?


I think the issue with the Twin lead 300ohm was that it was prone to interference. The signal strength was very good.

You are right, I don't see a balun in the one picture. Don't know what the OP did to hook it up but I'm sure he used some sort of balun or transformer to convert to 75ohm coax down the line. 

As I said, my 70's Sansui still uses the rabbit ears and 300ohm I have from decades ago, looks like this:


----------



## LenL

Thanks for all of the suggestions and help! Much appreciated!

Yes there was 300 ohm wire attached to the beast. I pulled it off and connectedt a 75 ohm transformer and coax.

Yes I have several antennas that I am using but since I found this beast I thought it might be an omen that I should put it to use. Who knows what might happen to ATSC 1.0 signals down the road as the move to ATSC 3.0 takes place? Anyway I thought I could either put it in play or keep it in reserve once I determined what it can do.

Also one of my antennas is outdoors and I would have liked to retire it and just use the indoor antnnas.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

LenL said:


> Thanks for all of the suggestions and help! Much appreciated!
> 
> Yes there was 300 ohm wire attached to the beast. I pulled it off and connectedt a 75 ohm transformer and coax.
> 
> Yes I have several antennas that I am using but since I found this beast I thought it might be an omen that I should put it to use. Who knows what might happen to ATSC 1.0 signals down the road as the move to ATSC 3.0 takes place? Anyway I thought I could either put it in play or keep it in reserve once I determined what it can do.
> 
> Also one of my antennas is outdoors and I would have liked to retire it and just use the indoor antnnas.


So you went to the trouble of hooking up the Transformer and coax and didn't try it? Let us know how well it works.


----------



## nathill

LenL said:


> Calaveras,
> 
> *I hooked it up and got great VHF* and not so great UHF as you pointed out. I did get some UHF but not what I get from my small RCA 751. It is not useable as an antenna unless I could get better UHF.
> 
> So I don't think this is an option to use unless there is a way to make some modification to produce better UHF. What is odd about this antenna is all of the many elements devoted to only pick up VHF? I have some more pictures of the design especially the front part of the antenna which has the many smaller (Smaller than the elements at the back) elements.
> 
> So if anyone has any idea on how to modify to add UHF I am all ears and eyes!
> 
> View attachment 3218318
> View attachment 3218319
> View attachment 3218320
> View attachment 3218321


He did try it. He said it "got great VHF."
That's why I think he should use it with a UHF-VHF combiner. I'm betting that old dinosaur will be hard to beat for VHF.


----------



## Gibson_s

nathill said:


> He did try it. He said it "got great VHF."
> That's why I think he should use it with a UHF-VHF combiner. I'm betting that old dinosaur will be hard to beat for VHF.


I'm sure it's fantastic for VHF... but does he have any stations his RCA 751 combo won't pickup? I haven't seen much info from him to say for sure.

I know this is an antenna enthusiast thread but there's a point where putting man-hours in isn't worth it if it won't better your current situation. If he comes out and says he has spotty reception on his current RCA for High VHF (and/or has Low VHF available to receive), then I say to go for a build and throw money and man-hours at it if he wishes.


----------



## LenL

ChiwaukeeOTA,

I did try it and VHF was great and UHF was not so good. I did get some UHF but a number of channels were breaking up.


----------



## Gibson_s

LenL said:


> ChiwaukeeOTA,
> 
> I did try it and VHF was great and UHF was not so good. I did get some UHF but a number of channels were breaking up.


You stated you have an RCA 751, what does that antenna not get that you are interested in using this for VHF instead? Do you have Low VHF stations in your area? I'm wondering what the attraction to do anything with this old antenna would be, if you don't... as most areas do not and the 751 is a pretty good antenna for the High VHF.

Did you post a Rabbitears report?


----------



## LenL

My RCA 751 YAGI currently gets close to 100/100 (quality/strength) VHF but not always and depending on weather and leaves on the trees I can have reception issues. The beast in the attic for this limited test was 100/100 on all VHF stations which for me is 7.1(ABC), 8.1(NJTV), 11.1(WPIX) and 13.1(PBS WNET). So I may followup on the suggestion of trying to make use of it's VHF reception and combine it with one of my other antennas. I have a CM4228 which is NOT really a UHF/VHF antenna (mostly UHF) and try to combine the beast with it. Right now it is too cold to go into the attic so when it gets a bit warmer I will hook it back up and experiment and report back if there is any interest.

Gibson I think I answered your questions. I have no low VHF. No Rabbitears reports were posted by me as I don't think that is needed.


----------



## Gibson_s

LenL said:


> My RCA 751 YAGI currently gets close to 100/100 (quality/strength) VHF but not always and depending on weather and leaves on the trees I can have reception issues. The beast in the attic for this limited test was 100/100 on all VHF stations which for me is *7.1(ABC), 8.1(NJTV), 11.1(WPIX) and 13.1(PBS WNET).* So I may followup on the suggestion of trying to make use of it's VHF reception and combine it with one of my other antennas. I have a CM4228 which is NOT really a UHF/VHF antenna (mostly UHF) and try to combine the beast with it. Right now it is too cold to go into the attic so when it gets a bit warmer I will hook it back up and experiment and report back if there is any interest.
> 
> Gibson I think I answered your questions. I have no low VHF. No Rabbitears reports were posted by me as I don't think that is needed.


How far are you from these transmitters? How long is your coax lead in? Do you have a preamp or dist. amp?

It's expected when you have antenna questions that you take a few minutes and punch in your address for a report. It takes away the guesswork. Taking a UHF antenna from outdoors into your attic could pose problems as well.


----------



## hdtvluvr

LenL said:


> all VHF stations which for me is 7.1(ABC), 8.1(NJTV), 11.1(WPIX) and 13.1(PBS WNET).


Just because your TV reads the channels as 7.1, 8.1, 11.1 & 13.1 doesn't mean they are VHF. Those are just assigned by the TV station. A Rabbit ears report would give the actual transmission channel.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

LenL said:


> "on all VHF stations which for me is 7.1(ABC), 8.1(NJTV), 11.1(WPIX) and 13.1(PBS WNET).
> No Rabbitears reports were posted by me as I don't think that is needed."


Honestly though, it is a good idea to post your rabbit ears report because none of us know what's your RF channels are translated to virtual channels.

Your statement above proves that you think the virtual Channel numbers are a true representation of the RF band they are in. Hardly ever these days do the RF channels have the same numbers as the virtual channels.


----------



## ctdish

Even though the OP listed the stations virtual channel number, in his case all of those channels are high VHF with most physical numbers equaling the virtual numbers. We should not jump to the conclusion that he is unaware of the difference between physical and virtual numbers.


----------



## LenL

Folks, I am in the NY market and know from years in this market, that 7.1 and 11.1 are actually RF 7 and 11. While 8.1 is RF8 and displays 50.1. And 13.1 is RF12 but displays 13.1.

So I know in my market which are the VHF stations.


----------



## Gibson_s

LenL said:


> Folks, I am in the NY market and know from years in this market, that 7.1 and 11.1 are actually RF 7 and 11. While 8.1 is RF8 and displays 50.1. And 13.1 is RF12 but displays 13.1.
> 
> So I know in my market which are the VHF stations.


You seem pretty stubborn, don't know if anyone can truly help you with specifics if you refuse to do a signal report that takes a minute and post it. There are literally people in here who are experts on this topic yet your residence within 70 miles from the NYC market is all they have to go on.

So let us know how it works out. Good luck.






RabbitEars.Info


RabbitEars, where you can learn all about local, over-the-air TV channels.




www.rabbitears.info


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

LenL said:


> Folks, I am in the NY market and know from years in this market, that 7.1 and 11.1 are actually RF 7 and 11. While 8.1 is RF8 and displays 50.1. And 13.1 is RF12 but displays 13.1.
> 
> So I know in my market which are the VHF stations.


You knew that but we didn't know that. 

When people are trying to help other people and they ask for a report so that they can help them, it would be nice if you could just produce the report. Like Gibson said, why be stubborn ?


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

ctdish said:


> Even though the OP listed the stations virtual channel number, in his case all of those channels are high VHF with most physical numbers equaling the virtual numbers. We should not jump to the conclusion that he is unaware of the difference between physical and virtual numbers.


All we did was ask for a simple report that takes less than a minute to make. In a vacuum of information sometimes conclusions are wrongfully made.

He listed all his channels by virtual number. Are we supposed to look up the call sign and figure it out without his help so we can help?


----------



## LenL

ChiwaukeeOTA said:


> All we did was ask for a simple report that takes less than a minute to make. In a vacuum of information sometimes conclusions are wrongfully made.
> 
> He listed all his channels by virtual number. Are we supposed to look up the call sign and figure it out without his help so we can help?


Chiwaukee,

Originally I posted about the antenna I found in my attic space over the garage. I was looking for information as to what kind of antenna it was and if it could be modified to be a VHF/UHF antenna. Or how I could possibly use it.

I was not asking for or looking for reception help. Hence I did not see a need to post any rabbitears info. I was not trying to be difficult. A report on my reception and you folks analyzing it was totally a different subject that was not called for. I was not needing it.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

LenL said:


> Chiwaukee,
> 
> Originally I posted about the antenna I found in my attic space over the garage. I was looking for information as to what kind of antenna it was and if it could be modified to be a VHF/UHF antenna. Or how I could possibly use it.
> 
> I was not asking for or looking for reception help. Hence I did not see a need to post any rabbitears info. I was not trying to be difficult. A report on my reception and you folks analyzing it was totally a different subject that was not called for. I was not needing it.


OK. All is well. Thank you. Let us know how it works for you.


----------



## 2021c8htc

I need an ultra fringe antenna to pick up UHF stations 15, 17, 18, and 19 (frequencies 470-506 MHz). What model will give me the best reception for those frequencies?


----------



## 2021c8htc

TelevesTech said:


> Thought this would be of interest for some.
> 
> A new repack-ready model of the Televes DAT LR Mix is now available. The improvements in this new model (P/N 149884) come both from the hardware of the antenna and the built-in T-Force preamplifier, namely:
> 
> - The triple boom yagi-corner UHF section of the antenna has been redesigned to optimize it for the new repack frequencies, with the UHF band limited to RF14-RF36 (608MHz). This model uses wider UHF elements and spacing, achieving an improvement in raw antenna gain between 1-2dB across the UHF band when compared to the previous model.
> 
> - The VHF High corner reflector that takes care of RF7-RF13 on the DAT LR Mix has also been redesigned, using a larger VHF reflector and other minor adjustments, achieving in this case a raw gain improvement of 3dB across the VHF High band when compared to the previous model.
> 
> - The built-in T-Force preamplifier has also been redesigned from the ground up. The filtering has been changed to 608MHz vs the 698MHz of the previous model of course, but more importantly, now the dipole features two completely independent VHF and UHF automatically gain controlled preamplifiers in the assembly. This allows the preamplifier to adjust the gain independently for both bands, which is beneficial in situations where the signals received in UHF are much stronger than VHF and vice-versa. In the previous generation there would be situations where very strong signals in one band could limit the maximun gain applied while the other band could benefit from more amplification. The preamplifier now has total flexibility to adjust its gain to the optimal value for each band independently. It is basically two preamplifers in one, each with its own MMIC enabled T-Force chipset, this also allows for much better out of band filtering as well. The maximum total gain of each preamplifier has also been reduced slightly.
> 
> View attachment 3215569
> 
> View attachment 3215572
> 
> View attachment 3215571
> 
> View attachment 3215570


The Televes US website does not show this model. All the antennas on the website show specifications for UHF channels 14-51 (frequency 470 - 608 MHz). Where can I get this? I need something tailored to UHF channels 15 - 19.


----------



## TelevesTech

2021c8htc said:


> The Televes US website does not show this model. All the antennas on the website show specifications for UHF channels 14-51 (frequency 470 - 608 MHz). Where can I get this? I need something tailored to UHF channels 15 - 19.


These have launched very recently and the website has not been updated yet. But they are available from a number of distributors. You can also email [email protected]


----------



## Gibson_s

2021c8htc said:


> I need an ultra fringe antenna to pick up UHF stations 15, 17, 18, and 19 (frequencies 470-506 MHz). What model will give me the best reception for those frequencies?


Make it yourself? Most UHF antennas will be for 14-51 and very few for the smaller 14-36. 

Hard to say what Ultra Fringe is as people asking specific questions usually add a RabbitEars report to have most questions answered. Anything over 70 Miles is usually a waste of time unless you are in a truly advantageous position (high elevation or over a body of water).






RabbitEars.Info


RabbitEars, where you can learn all about local, over-the-air TV channels.




www.rabbitears.info


----------



## 2021c8htc

Gibson_s said:


> Make it yourself? Most UHF antennas will be for 14-51 and very few for the smaller 14-36.
> 
> Hard to say what Ultra Fringe is as people asking specific questions usually add a RabbitEars report to have most questions answered. Anything over 70 Miles is usually a waste of time unless you are in a truly advantageous position (high elevation or over a body of water).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RabbitEars.Info
> 
> 
> RabbitEars, where you can learn all about local, over-the-air TV channels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rabbitears.info








RabbitEars.Info


RabbitEars, where you can learn all about local, over-the-air TV channels.




www.rabbitears.info





1st 4 stations are the one's I need. Antenna will be located on a mountain/plateau, but in a very low spot.


----------



## Gibson_s

If the signal is blocked by a mountain range, you'll have severe issues. If not, the stations at 291 degrees would be most likely doable.

I'd start with a 4 Bay UHF antenna and see if it works for you. You might need a preamp if your coax is long. Make sure you have a line of sight before you proceed.

If that doesn't work a UHF Yagi with higher gain might work better. Again, if you are blocked in some way, it'll be bad. By you saying "Ultra Fringe" makes me think that there are issues involved.


----------



## 2021c8htc

Yes, the location is in a low area with trees. The station at 289 degrees is the only one that comes in somewhat consistently with an 8 bay 4228


----------



## jkeldo

2021c8htc said:


> Yes, the location is in a low area with trees. The station at 289 degrees is the only one that comes in somewhat consistently with an 8 bay 4228


Are you using a preamp with your 4228? Since you have an 8 bay antenna, you already have what many would call a "fringe" antenna. Your RabbitEars report doesn't look too bad for the first four stations. Your current antenna just might not be in the sweet spot. Have you tried moving it?


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

2021c8htc said:


> The Televes US website does not show this model. All the antennas on the website show specifications for UHF channels 14-51 (frequency 470 - 608 MHz). Where can I get this? I need something tailored to UHF channels 15 - 19.





2021c8htc said:


> RabbitEars.Info
> 
> 
> RabbitEars, where you can learn all about local, over-the-air TV channels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rabbitears.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1st 4 stations are the one's I need. Antenna will be located on a mountain/plateau, but in a very low spot.
> 
> View attachment 3221621


Of course the terrain must be the issue. Surprisingly the first five or six stations on your report look easy. Having said that, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have the best or at least a big UHF antenna. Also since you said you're down in a plateau an antenna that has a tilt mount would also be optimal. If all you want is the top five stations aim it at 290° and enjoy.


----------



## Gibson_s

2021c8htc said:


> Yes, the location is in a low area with trees. The station at 289 degrees is the only one that comes in somewhat consistently with an 8 bay 4228


Ouch, that isn't a good result with a very good antenna. I'd check the connections, repoint and go from there. Also, if you can go a lot higher on the mount, change the mount to another area, add Preamp, etc, you might benefit. If you are surrounded by 50ft Redwoods, I'd say you might be royally fudged.


----------



## jkeldo

Gibson_s said:


> Ouch, that isn't a good result with a very good antenna. I'd check the connections, repoint and go from there. Also, if you can go a lot higher on the mount, I'd also try that. If you are surrounded by 50ft Redwoods, I'd say you might be royally fudged.


It is possible that the Rabbitears report is not accurate but it looks like the first four stations should not be a problem which is why I asked the OP about a preamp.


----------



## Gibson_s

jkeldo said:


> It is possible that the Rabbitears report is not accurate but it looks like the first four stations should not be a problem which is why I asked the OP about a preamp.


He asked about "Ultra Fringe" so I assumed he's having issues. I'm betting it's the Terrain that is killing his signal. Where I grew up there was a bush all around our property but it was set back enough that it didn't destroy the signal. If he's adjacent to a massive bush or forest destroying the signal and can't get high enough, I'd say it's a definite problem. You can only amplify if you get the signal...


----------



## LaserBeamSC

I saw this over on the Digital Home forum and I think it recently became available. It is “designed to optimize the recent “post repack” frequencies”…and “element sections can be attached” for higher gain. Looks well built but a pretty high price.









Pro-Model UHF/VHF TV Antenna


The Channel Master Pro-Model antenna is a professional-grade outdoor TV antenna designed for both commercial and residential applications. The Pro-Model outdoor TV antenna is optimized to receive all US broadcast TV frequencies, including digital, HD and NextGen TV signals.




www.channelmaster.com


----------



## Primestar31

LaserBeamSC said:


> I saw this over on the Digital Home forum and I think it recently became available. It is “designed to optimize the recent “post repack” frequencies”…and “element sections can be attached” for higher gain. Looks well built but a pretty high price.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pro-Model UHF/VHF TV Antenna
> 
> 
> The Channel Master Pro-Model antenna is a professional-grade outdoor TV antenna designed for both commercial and residential applications. The Pro-Model outdoor TV antenna is optimized to receive all US broadcast TV frequencies, including digital, HD and NextGen TV signals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.channelmaster.com


You really are considering buying what looks like a $20 antenna, BUT, paying $150 for it? IF I was spending that sort of money, I'd just buy a Televes Elipse Mix. The newest model is tweaked for the latest spectrum, it's model 148883. Same price as the Channel Master, but I'm positive it's MUCH better quality than Channel Masters normal "come out with something, and turn it into abandonware real quick" stuff.


----------



## LaserBeamSC

Primestar31 said:


> You really are considering buying what looks like a $20 antenna, BUT, paying $150 for it? IF I was spending that sort of money, I'd just buy a Televes Elipse Mix. The newest model is tweaked for the latest spectrum, it's model 148883. Same price as the Channel Master, but I'm positive it's MUCH better quality than Channel Masters normal "come out with something, and turn it into abandonware real quick" stuff.


Yeah I would never buy that CM antenna. I do have the new Televes 149884 LR Mix and the 148383 with V Lo/Hi already delivered and hope to have one up in the next week or so. I’m looking forward to comparing the UHF gain to the older DAT LR UHF model.


----------



## Primestar31

LaserBeamSC said:


> Yeah I would never buy that CM antenna. I do have the new Televes 149884 LR Mix and the 148383 with V Lo/Hi already delivered and hope to have one up in the next week or so. I’m looking forward to comparing the UHF gain to the older DAT LR UHF model.


Post those results, because I'm really interested in that myself, and no longer have access to a spectrum analyzer at the moment. I'd dearly LOVE having a meter that can do both BER and MER, along with showing the spectrum. Even the "cheap" ones are $400.


----------



## Calaveras

Rabbitears shows your top 4 stations as LOS and Signal Margins in the upper 20's. This is not an ultra fringe area, only near average. Any reasonable outdoor UHF antenna should work for you unless you're looking through a forest and that's another story.

I've attached my graphic showing Signal (Noise) Margin and reception description.


----------



## trailblazer

Would like to see your results from the Televes Lo/HI VHF/UHF antenna. Very interested in getting this antenna for my setup.


----------



## traveling wave

Primestar31 said:


> Post those results, because I'm really interested in that myself, and no longer have access to a spectrum analyzer at the moment. I'd dearly LOVE having a meter that can do both BER and MER, along with showing the spectrum. Even the "cheap" ones are $400.


----------



## LenL

Antenna man's review:






televes lo/hi vhf/uhf antenna reviews - Yahoo Video Search Results


The search engine that helps you find exactly what you're looking for. Find the most relevant information, video, images, and answers from all across the Web.




video.search.yahoo.com


----------



## traveling wave

Prior to recent low power co-channels becoming active from South Mtn. in the Phoenix area I had excellent reception from Tucson real rf channels 23,25,30,32.Now the Tucson channels are blanked out from the Phoenix co-channels. Since the U.K. group A aerials are a perfect match for the new USA UHF re-pak channels 14-36 I have considered buying a group A aerial from the U.K. such as a Blake dmx 52-A . Has anyone priced the shipping and tried out a U.K. Group A fringe aerial in the USA for USA channels 14-36 ? Hoping for more directivity/null of the Phoenix interfering channels ???


----------



## Gibson_s

LaserBeamSC said:


> I saw this over on the Digital Home forum and I think it recently became available. It is “designed to optimize the recent “post repack” frequencies”…and “element sections can be attached” for higher gain. Looks well built but a pretty high price.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pro-Model UHF/VHF TV Antenna
> 
> 
> The Channel Master Pro-Model antenna is a professional-grade outdoor TV antenna designed for both commercial and residential applications. The Pro-Model outdoor TV antenna is optimized to receive all US broadcast TV frequencies, including digital, HD and NextGen TV signals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.channelmaster.com


PingBingDing executives must be running the show at CM now... pretty sad to see. Looks like a regular Chinese Amazon knockoff.


----------



## Primestar31

traveling wave said:


> Prior to recent low power co-channels becoming active from South Mtn. in the Phoenix area I had excellent reception from Tucson real rf channels 23,25,30,32.Now the Tucson channels are blanked out from the Phoenix co-channels. Since the U.K. group A aerials are a perfect match for the new USA UHF re-pak channels 14-36 I have considered buying a group A aerial from the U.K. such as a Blake dmx 52-A . Has anyone priced the shipping and tried out a U.K. Group A fringe aerial in the USA for USA channels 14-36 ? Hoping for more directivity/null of the Phoenix interfering channels ???


I not only priced them, I ordered one and paid by credit card. The next day they canceled the order, and said shipping would cost as much as the antenna. Making the antenna cost well over $200+.

For that price, I'd buy the newest just released Televes Dat Boss Mix model 149884 antenna. They are also cut for the newest USA spectrum.


----------



## traveling wave

Primestar31 said:


> I not only priced them, I ordered one and paid by credit card. The next day they canceled the order, and said shipping would cost as much as the antenna. Making the antenna cost well over $200+.
> 
> For that price, I'd buy the newest just released Televes Dat Boss Mix model 149884 antenna. They are also cut for the newest USA spectrum.


----------



## traveling wave

I may try my luck at building a yagi peaking somwhere around Rf 30 with maybe around 30 degree or better beamwidth. I'll have to look at some design web sites. Hack an existing yagi like a xg91 or something?


----------



## Calaveras

traveling wave said:


> Prior to recent low power co-channels becoming active from South Mtn. in the Phoenix area I had excellent reception from Tucson real rf channels 23,25,30,32.Now the Tucson channels are blanked out from the Phoenix co-channels. Since the U.K. group A aerials are a perfect match for the new USA UHF re-pak channels 14-36 I have considered buying a group A aerial from the U.K. such as a Blake dmx 52-A . Has anyone priced the shipping and tried out a U.K. Group A fringe aerial in the USA for USA channels 14-36 ? Hoping for more directivity/null of the Phoenix interfering channels ???


What is your current UHF antenna? I can tell you from experience that if one of the co-channel stations is significantly stronger than the other, then no antenna has enough rejection to receive the weaker station. I've run most of these tests with a pair of 91XG's which have the highest rejection of any commercial antenna. Even if the antenna models with >30dB F/R ratio, it won't be realized in the environment because mountains and buildings reflect the stronger station even when you're not pointed at it.

Attached are two spectrum analyzer displays analyzing co-channel stations KMSB in Tucson and XHCAN in Cananea, Mexico with the 91XGs pointed at each station. The first image shows KMSB when it was strong enough to be decoded and the second when it was too weak to be decoded.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

traveling wave said:


> I may try my luck at building a yagi peaking somwhere around Rf 30 with maybe around 30 degree or better beamwidth. I'll have to look at some design web sites. Hack an existing yagi like a xg91 or something?


Yes you could hack a 91xg easily. The hard way is to redesign it for the repack. It will give you more strength which will help you with RF-30. This is the ideal way. A lot of work no. I'll give you a second option next post


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

traveling wave said:


> I may try my luck at building a yagi peaking somwhere around Rf 30 with maybe around 30 degree or better beamwidth. I'll have to look at some design web sites. Hack an existing yagi like a xg91 or something?


It will take 2 91XGs but it's an easy hack :


----------



## LaserBeamSC

I used the 91XG with the added middle section and did provide extra gain and served me well for a year or so. I would think AD would be real innovative retune the 91XG for the repack. It’s still a great old school antenna but I’m sure it’s all about the Benjamin’s. Great job Chiwaukee on those hacks you do! The results are always interesting.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

LaserBeamSC said:


> I used the 91XG with the added middle section and did provide extra gain and served me well for a year or so. I would think AD would be real innovative retune the 91XG for the repack. It’s still a great old school antenna but I’m sure it’s all about the Benjamin’s. Great job Chiwaukee on those hacks you do! The results are always interesting.


I will hack any antenna at any time! What I liked about the 91XG iS you can use every single piece of two antennas except the reflectors !


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

LaserBeamSC said:


> I used the 91XG with the added middle section and did provide extra gain and served me well for a year or so. I would think AD would be real innovative retune the 91XG for the repack. It’s still a great old school antenna but I’m sure it’s all about the Benjamin’s. Great job Chiwaukee on those hacks you do! The results are always interesting.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

Antennas Direct is / was a great company. They've taken good care of me over the years. When I saw they bought Mohu, I knew what direction they were heading in. 

After my antennas were destroyed in the Gale of 2020, they stepped up and offered to replace them for free under warranty. I was completely in shock.

Yeah unfortunately most antenna companies have no interest in doing anything special for the repack because the old antennas still work, in fact the 91XG is two digital dividends behind because it's a 69 Channel antenna. It should have been reworked for the digital transition.

AD has probably discussed reworking it, but I'm sure money is tight. Still, I don't think it would be that hard to stamp out some new elements and possibly redo the molds for the plastic. 

AD Tech used to be a prominent figure in some of these forums, but has taken on a different role I believe. He's a very good guy and very helpful.


----------



## LaserBeamSC

ChiwaukeeOTA said:


> Antennas Direct is / was a great company. They've taken good care of me over the years. When I saw they bought Mohu, I knew what direction they were heading in.
> 
> After my antennas were destroyed in the Gale of 2020, they stepped up and offered to replace them for free under warranty. I was completely in shock.
> 
> Yeah unfortunately most antenna companies have no interest in doing anything special for the repack because the old antennas still work, in fact the 91XG is two digital dividends behind because it's a 69 Channel antenna. It should have been reworked for the digital transition.
> 
> AD has probably discussed reworking it, but I'm sure money is tight. Still, I don't think it would be that hard to stamp out some new elements and possibly redo the molds for the plastic.
> 
> AD Tech used to be a prominent figure in some of these forums, but has taken on a different role I believe. He's a very good guy and very helpful.


Yes Antennas Direct has been solid with the Clearstream series, Db4e, 8 and 91XG as well as The Juice. AD Tech did give some interesting inside on the AD products and if I’m not mistaken Richard Schneider would post (if not here TV Fool) when AD was first starting. Btw, TV Fool seems to be shut down. While the signal report was clearly outdated, the forum had some informative posts and healthy debates that were timeless.


----------



## hdtvluvr

LaserBeamSC said:


> Yes Antennas Direct has been solid with the Clearstream series, Db4e, 8 and 91XG as well as The Juice. AD Tech did give some interesting inside on the AD products and if I’m not mistaken Richard Schneider would post (if not here TV Fool) when AD was first starting. Btw, TV Fool seems to be shut down. While the signal report was clearly outdated, the forum had some informative posts and healthy debates that were timeless.


TV Fool Forums

Still works for me. But TVFool.com hangs.


----------



## LaserBeamSC

hdtvluvr said:


> TV Fool Forums
> 
> Still works for me. But TVFool.com hangs.


Thanks for posting that!


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

LenL said:


> Chiwaukee,
> 
> Originally I posted about the antenna I found in my attic space over the garage. I was looking for information as to what kind of antenna it was and if it could be modified to be a VHF/UHF antenna. Or how I could possibly use it.
> 
> I was not asking for or looking for reception help. Hence I did not see a need to post any rabbitears info. I was not trying to be difficult. A report on my reception and you folks analyzing it was totally a different subject that was not called for. I was not needing it.


I found an old advertisement. Could be your antenna.


----------



## LenL

ChiwaukeeOTA said:


> View attachment 3225959
> 
> 
> I found an old advertisement. Could be your antenna.


Very Close to the same design but not quite! The elements in the front are NOT the same. This is a Winegard model you found but back in the day there were probably other antenna makers and I think the one I have is probably a design from some other antenna maker. I tried to find a brand name on the antenna but could not.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

LenL said:


> Very Close to the same design but not quite! The elements in the front are NOT the same. This is a Winegard model you found but back in the day there were probably other antenna makers and I think the one I have is probably a design from some other antenna maker. I tried to find a brand name on the antenna but could not.


Yeah, isn't that something? Why weren't companies proud enough to put their name on their antennas?


----------



## LenL

The label could very well have been on a sticker that came off during installation? Or could have been somewhere that I did not look given the lighting issues and precarious no flooring situation I was dealing with!


----------



## LaserBeamSC

Has Antennas Direct discontinued the DB4e? While still available from Summit Source and other outlets it’s no longer on the AD website. While testing many antennas the DB4e was almost as good the DB8e and out performed any other CM 8 bay I tried. Maybe AD is retuning a 4 Bay for the repack spectrum? Just curious.


----------



## jpoet

TelevesTech said:


> There is, the repack-ready Ellipse Mix (P/N 148883). The UHF section of that antenna already peaks at around 600MHz on the pre-repack model and the High VHF section is well balanced with it so there are no changes on the antenna itself. The preamp has been updated with the same changes as the DAT LR models to better adapt it to the new band (all these preamps are antenna specific, however):


I just stumbled on this thread. I apologize but I am unlikely to read it all!

I will be moving into a home later this year which unfortunately has an HOA that limits a TV antenna to the 1M diameter the FCC forces them to accept. I am unclear, though, if the 1M diameter is that of a circle or a sphere? Would the "Ellipse Mix (P/N 148883)" qualify under those conditions? I am not sure it is the best choice for me, but would like to understand what my options are.

The "local" stations will be easy to pull in:





RabbitEars.Info


RabbitEars, where you can learn all about local, over-the-air TV channels.




www.rabbitears.info




But I would like to also be able to get 11-1 (11) KFFX-TV, because the local translator 11‑1 (36) KBWU-LD downmixes everything to stereo.

I would also like 7‑1 (29) K29EG-D KSPS-TV just to have a different variety of PBS programming available.
The other MILTON-FREEWATER stations might be interesting since they are mostly Portland stations and might show different content, for example football games.

Is there any antenna / amplifier combination that is going to be within the 1M diameter in size that can give me all of that? 
I have sepatate tuners in my DVR, which means I could dedicate one tuner for the MILTON-FREEWATER stations and the other for the local stations. That would allow me to have a splitter that then has an amplifier for the MILTON-FREEWATER, but not for the local stations. Does that make sense?

TIA!


----------



## TelevesTech

jpoet said:


> I just stumbled on this thread. I apologize but I am unlikely to read it all!
> 
> I will be moving into a home later this year which unfortunately has an HOA that limits a TV antenna to the 1M diameter the FCC forces them to accept. I am unclear, though, if the 1M diameter is that of a circle or a sphere? Would the "Ellipse Mix (P/N 148883)" qualify under those conditions? I am not sure it is the best choice for me, but would like to understand what my options are.
> 
> The "local" stations will be easy to pull in:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RabbitEars.Info
> 
> 
> RabbitEars, where you can learn all about local, over-the-air TV channels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rabbitears.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I would like to also be able to get 11-1 (11) KFFX-TV, because the local translator 11‑1 (36) KBWU-LD downmixes everything to stereo.
> 
> I would also like 7‑1 (29) K29EG-D KSPS-TV just to have a different variety of PBS programming available.
> The other MILTON-FREEWATER stations might be interesting since they are mostly Portland stations and might show different content, for example football games.
> 
> Is there any antenna / amplifier combination that is going to be within the 1M diameter in size that can give me all of that?
> I have sepatate tuners in my DVR, which means I could dedicate one tuner for the MILTON-FREEWATER stations and the other for the local stations. That would allow me to have a splitter that then has an amplifier for the MILTON-FREEWATER, but not for the local stations. Does that make sense?
> 
> TIA!


The ellipse is 38x36x29 inches


----------



## jpoet

TelevesTech said:


> The ellipse is 38x36x29 inches


And 1 meter is 39 inches. Technically, the ellipse would probably not (completely) fit into a 1 meter diameter sphere, but as long as the 1 meter limitation is a sphere and not a circle, I could probably get away with it.

What is the chance the ellipse will pull in those distant channels for me? Will any antenna be up to that?


----------



## TelevesTech

jpoet said:


> I just stumbled on this thread. I apologize but I am unlikely to read it all!
> 
> I will be moving into a home later this year which unfortunately has an HOA that limits a TV antenna to the 1M diameter the FCC forces them to accept. I am unclear, though, if the 1M diameter is that of a circle or a sphere? Would the "Ellipse Mix (P/N 148883)" qualify under those conditions? I am not sure it is the best choice for me, but would like to understand what my options are.
> 
> The "local" stations will be easy to pull in:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RabbitEars.Info
> 
> 
> RabbitEars, where you can learn all about local, over-the-air TV channels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rabbitears.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I would like to also be able to get 11-1 (11) KFFX-TV, because the local translator 11‑1 (36) KBWU-LD downmixes everything to stereo.
> 
> I would also like 7‑1 (29) K29EG-D KSPS-TV just to have a different variety of PBS programming available.
> The other MILTON-FREEWATER stations might be interesting since they are mostly Portland stations and might show different content, for example football games.
> 
> Is there any antenna / amplifier combination that is going to be within the 1M diameter in size that can give me all of that?
> I have sepatate tuners in my DVR, which means I could dedicate one tuner for the MILTON-FREEWATER stations and the other for the local stations. That would allow me to have a splitter that then has an amplifier for the MILTON-FREEWATER, but not for the local stations. Does that make sense?
> 
> TIA!


I think it's a solid solution for that report, if accurate. You'll be hard pressed to find an antenna of that size that outperforms it.


----------



## gbynum

jpoet said:


> I will be moving into a home later this year which unfortunately has an HOA that limits a TV antenna to the 1M diameter the FCC forces them to accept.


I don't have link to the actual FCC text, but I'm over 99% sure it says an antenna that will get all stations in your defined geography (as long as it doesn't interfere with aviation; height limitations based on airports) must be allowed.

Someone here (@Trip in VA please comment) should be able to help.


----------



## Trip in VA

Yep. The 1 meter refers to satellite dishes, not OTA antennas. Over-the-Air Reception Devices Rule

- Trip


----------



## jpoet

Trip in VA said:


> Yep. The 1 meter refers to satellite dishes, not OTA antennas. Over-the-Air Reception Devices Rule
> 
> - Trip


Ah! That helps. Unless I am missing something reading that document, if I desire to try and receive the distant stations, I can use whatever antenna is required? Or, have I missed the part where I only have the "right" to receive the local stations?

Thanks!


----------



## Trip in VA

There's been some discussion on forums like this one about what the word "local" means--does it include distant signals or not? I am not an attorney and don't know the answer to that question.

Your bigger issue is that KRLB-LD held a permit to move to channel 29, which would wipe that signal out regardless. (The permit is expired, but nothing would keep them from reapplying for it.) It may not be worth the effort of chasing down that particular signal. K30OA-D, which translates Oregon PBS, looks more promising from a co-channel perspective, but then it suffers from adjacent-channel concerns from both the aforementioned KRLB-LD and K31KW-D, the latter being the strongest signal on your list. Most receivers are rated to handle signals that are weaker than an adjacent channel by about 30-40 dB, and this would be more like 60-70 dB.

- Trip


----------



## jpoet

Thank you Trip.


----------



## NOAMattD

Basic question for the many smart folks in this thread: I'm looking for a way to get OTA channels in my projector room where I stream through an Nvidia Shield TV and strongly considering a HDhomerun. Currently I have a GE Pro antenna (29884) in my attic which serves my main family room TV. It's just:

Antenna -> 50ft coax (which I could shorten by several feet if needed) -> Roku TV.

I'm not going to subject everyone to learning a new app since the Live TV works fine on the Roku as-is. I'm in the Orlando area mainly pointing east. No issues at all getting the channels I want; primarily the major broadcast networks and PBS. RabbitEars.Info

What should I buy and where should I put it? Do I need a distribution amplifier? Preamp + powered splitter? I don't think I could get away with just a passive 2-way splitter. Replacing the antenna isn't an option although I could get a second one if it were more economical. Not really sure if dual passive antennas interfere with one another or what or how close together they can be. I have plenty of room in my attic.

I plan to get a 4-tuner HDHomerun to get rid of the cheap flat antenna on my outdoor TV. It seems like there are surprisingly few options on Amazon for distribution amps and preamps and they're about as much as a second GE antenna would be anyways.


----------



## ipilcher

*[SOLVED] Lack of balun causing poor signal?*

(See solution at end)

*Background (copied from original post in Dallas, TX - HDTV thread):*

I am trying to set up OTA reception at my house for the first time. RabbitEars report is here. I am using an HDHomeRun Flex Duo, which reports 3 metrics for each channel that it detects - signal strength, signal quality, and symbol quality. I've written a quick Python script that uses the HDHomeRun API to scan through the known channels and report these metrics. For example:

2.1 ... ss=83 snq=74 seq=100​4.1 ... ss=98 snq=100 seq=100​5.1 ... ss=99 snq=100 seq=100​8.1 ... ss=80 snq=81 seq=100​11.1 ... ss=63 snq=66 seq=70 <===== ?????​13.1 ... ss=85 snq=96 seq=100​21.1 ... ss=80 snq=77 seq=100 <===== ?????​23.1 ... ss=100 snq=100 seq=100​27.1 ... ss=90 snq=96 seq=100​28.1 ... ss=64 snq=49 seq=0​29.1 ... ss=100 snq=100 seq=100​33.1 ... ss=88 snq=76 seq=100​39.1 ... ss=97 snq=100 seq=100​47.1 ... ss=91 snq=93 seq=100​49.1 ... ss=100 snq=100 seq=100​52.1 ... ss=74 snq=74 seq=100​55.1 ... ss=96 snq=100 seq=100​58.1 ... ss=87 snq=92 seq=100​68.1 ... ss=86 snq=88 seq=100​
Almost all of the channels shown on the FCC channel map come in pretty well. (WFAA has a slightly lower signal quality, but I have been assuming that's because it's VHF.) The glaring exception is KTVT, 11.1, which broadcasts on RF channel 19. You can see above that it's signal strength is well below that of the other non-low power channels. It's bad enough that I'm often unable to receive the station.

Even stranger, if I'm reading the FCC site correctly, KTXA, 21.1, on RF channel 18, uses the same tower and broadcasts at the same power level. Here are the links to the two stations.

KTVT
KTXA

*The actual questions:*

One thing that I did notice is that my signal quality is hyper-sensitive to the position of the antenna cable, particularly near the antenna and mast. My searches on the subject led me to this web page. My antenna is a "hot boom" design, and I have verified that it does not have a balun; it simply has an F-type connector attached to the lower boom, with the center conductor connected to the upper boom.

Does it seem likely that the absence of a balun would cause this sort of problem?

If so, I would very much prefer to use the second type of setup shown on the web page, with no balun at the feedpoint and a "mode isolation device" where the antenna meets the mast. (I really hate the idea of a cable flapping around in a Texas thunderstorm.) I would very much appreciate any links to a proper mode isolation device with 2 F-type connectors - particularly one that doesn't cost twice as much as the antenna itself!

*The solution:*

After spending almost 2 weeks banging my head on this, I finally solved my problem.

I had grounded my mast by wrapping the ground wire around one of the bolts that mounts the antenna to the mast and squeezing it with the wing nut. (See the picture of the antenna at this link.) Effectively, I connected the upper boom of the antenna to the ground wire. The lower boom is also grounded, through the feed line ground block. Now that I realize what I'd done, I don't really understand how it worked at all (and I'm still puzzled by the absence of a balun).

I'm somewhat irritated with myself for doing this, but really irritated with the manufacturer. Their instructions do not even mention the need to ground the antenna mount, let alone how to do it. Moreover, the fact that they've chosen to attach the *upper* boom to the mast, when the lower boom is grounded through the coax shield, means that I now feel compelled to take the darn thing down and wrap electrical tape around the upper boom where it is clamped by the mounting bracket.

At least I learned a lot about how log periodic dipole arrays work.


----------



## Calaveras

I've built a number of LPDA antennas for VHF and UHF with 75 ohm unbalanced feeds. I have not seen any small 75 ohm baluns you can buy for TV antennas. To get around that problem I've used ferrite beads over the coax at the feed point to make a choke balun. A problem is that your antenna is VHF and UHF and the ferrite beads don't cover both bands well. I suppose you could alternate beads of the coax to cover VHF/UHF. Here are the P/N's for Fair Rite beads. You can get them from Digi-Key.

VHF - 2643665702
UHF - 2661665702

I'd recommend 4 each.

I see that KTVT and KTXA share the same antenna. Have you tried moving your antenna? It could be you're in dead spot for them.

If you're really concerned about coax flapping in the wind, you could always add a plastic rod from the antenna boom down to the coax for extra support, especially after adding 8 beads.


----------



## ipilcher

Calaveras said:


> I've built a number of LPDA antennas for VHF and UHF with 75 ohm unbalanced feeds. I have not seen any small 75 ohm baluns you can buy for TV antennas. To get around that problem I've used ferrite beads over the coax at the feed point to make a choke balun. A problem is that your antenna is VHF and UHF and the ferrite beads don't cover both bands well. I suppose you could alternate beads of the coax to cover VHF/UHF. Here are the P/N's for Fair Rite beads. You can get them from Digi-Key.
> 
> VHF - 2643665702
> UHF - 2661665702
> 
> I'd recommend 4 each.
> 
> I see that KTVT and KTXA share the same antenna. Have you tried moving your antenna? It could be you're in dead spot for them.
> 
> If you're really concerned about coax flapping in the wind, you could always add a plastic rod from the antenna boom down to the coax for extra support, especially after adding 8 beads.


Thanks for responding!

I'm not sure if you noticed that I edited my post. (I think I was doing it right about the same time as you wrote your response.) Short version is that I did manage to get my antenna working significantly better by ensuring that the upper boom is not grounded. (The lower boom is directly connected to the coax feed line shield.)

So at this point, I've basically solved my signal strength/quality problem. My HDHomeRun is now reporting signal strength and quality for KTVT in the low 70s and mid 80s respectively (up from low 60s/mid 60s).

I'm left with my dislike of the "dangling" feed line. Do you have any idea if the feed line routing method described as "method 2" here would work with these beads? If it works, it looks like I could simply slide the beads over my coax cable and secure them with some shrink tubing at the point where the booms meet the mast.

Thanks again!


----------



## Calaveras

You could do method 2 but it's a lot of beads. I'm also not aware of any real world implementations of it. You can't ground the upper boom as you found out. Here's a picture of how I secured the coax on my 37 EL LPDA (9' boom) and my 22 el VHF LPDA (18' boom).


----------



## ipilcher

Calaveras said:


> You could do method 2 but it's a lot of beads. I'm also not aware of any real world implementations of it. You can't ground the upper boom as you found out. Here's a picture of how I secured the coax on my 37 EL LPDA (9' boom) and my 22 el VHF LPDA (18' boom).


That looks nice and neat on a large antenna, high off the ground.

Not so great when the feed line is hanging down so far it's almost touching one's trash cans! 😂










I've ordered the beads that you recommended, and I'm going to play around with them. I'll post my results back here.

Thanks for all of your advice!


----------



## Calaveras

ipilcher said:


> Not so great when the feed line is hanging down so far it's almost touching one's trash cans! 😂


I would not recommend an antenna this close to the ground, especially on VHF. Antennas <5 wavelengths above the ground have the radiation angle tilted up because of interaction with the ground significantly reducing the effective gain. A wavelength in the middle of high VHF is 5' so 25' is about the minimum for best performance. 

I performed a test using my local RF channel 28 which is perfect line-of-sight even with the antenna lying on the ground. The ground is flat and free of any obstructions for over 200' in front of the antenna. I used heights from 1/4 wave to 5 wavelengths above the ground. The transmitter is roughly at an elevation of 2.5 degrees being 3000' higher than I am and 13 miles away. See results below.

Also attached are the main lobes of antennas mounted at different heights above ground. You can assume that most TV transmitters are at an angle of around 1 degree. Your antenna looks to be about 5' above the ground or 1 wave at high VHF. You can see that the main lobe is tilted up at about 12 degrees missing most of any signal coming in at 1 degree.

Ideally you'd like to mount your antenna at 10 waves high so that it acts like the free space pattern models you see published. That's pretty easy at UHF (20') but that can be hard at high VHF (50') and impossible for low VHF (180').


----------



## Primestar31

Calaveras said:


> You can assume that most TV transmitters are at an angle of around 1 degree.


@Calaveras 

So, are you saying it definitely makes sense to sometimes point or angle your antenna UP 1 degree or so, instead of leaving it in a flat horizontal plane?

I know a lot of antennas come with bracket mounts that make it easy to do this, just not sure it ever really helps.


----------



## ipilcher

Calaveras said:


> I would not recommend an antenna this close to the ground, especially on VHF.


I've been aware from the beginning that this isn't an ideal location for an antenna (from a reception point of view). Fortunately, my location doesn't really require good antenna placement. I'm in the suburbs, about 30 miles away from the local transmitter cluster. I just needed to get it outside of the house, as my attic has a radiant barrier that seems to block pretty much everything. As long as the reception is good enough in the antenna's current location, the safety, ease of installation, and aesthetic advantages win the day.

With my grounding issue solved, and all of my major channels showing a signal quality in the mid-80s or above, I'm declaring my current reception quality to be good enough.

2.1 ... ss=78 snq=80 seq=100​4.1 ... ss=88 snq=100 seq=100
5.1 ... ss=83 snq=97 seq=100
8.1 ... ss=80 snq=88 seq=100
11.1 ... ss=68 snq=84 seq=100
13.1 ... ss=81 snq=99 seq=100
21.1 ... ss=73 snq=93 seq=100
23.1 ... ss=93 snq=100 seq=100
27.1 ... ss=88 snq=91 seq=100
28.1 ... ss=64 snq=65 seq=100
29.1 ... ss=92 snq=100 seq=100
33.1 ... ss=77 snq=88 seq=100
39.1 ... ss=87 snq=100 seq=100
47.1 ... ss=87 snq=100 seq=100
49.1 ... ss=94 snq=100 seq=100
52.1 ... ss=71 snq=83 seq=100
55.1 ... ss=83 snq=96 seq=100
58.1 ... ss=84 snq=100 seq=100
68.1 ... ss=67 snq=86 seq=100​


----------



## LenL

Just curious what are you using to measure to get these results?


----------



## Primestar31

LenL said:


> Just curious what are you using to measure to get these results?


Looks like it's probably an HD Homerun tuner. They give those exact readings.


----------



## Calaveras

Primestar31 said:


> @Calaveras
> 
> So, are you saying it definitely makes sense to sometimes point or angle your antenna UP 1 degree or so, instead of leaving it in a flat horizontal plane?
> 
> I know a lot of antennas come with bracket mounts that make it easy to do this, just not sure it ever really helps.


No, I'm not saying that. Tilting the antenna in an attempt to lower the angle doesn't work. The interaction between the antenna and the ground sets the angle. The antenna needs to effectively be in free space (very high) for tilting to work. It works for broadcast stations because their antennas are normally on high towers.

If tilting the antenna did anything then every ham radio operator would have their yagis tilted down and no one does that.


----------



## ipilcher

Primestar31 said:


> Looks like it's probably an HD Homerun tuner. They give those exact readings.


Correct


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

Calaveras said:


> You could do method 2 but it's a lot of beads. I'm also not aware of any real world implementations of it. You can't ground the upper boom as you found out. Here's a picture of how I secured the coax on my 37 EL LPDA (9' boom) and my 22 el VHF LPDA (18' boom).
> 
> View attachment 3231182


Hey Chuck,
What is that VHF antenna with the reflector? I thought it was a 30-2475 but I see the folded dipole is laying flat. I can tell you in my testing that the stock 4 Tube reflector on my hacked 30-2476 is worth + .5 dB

Also, on your LPDA how do you keep the booms isolated? Seeing those two booms together like that makes me think that would be very wind Worthy and good for ice and snow. I don't think you need to worry about the latter!


----------



## Calaveras

Bob,

That's an FM antenna. See here:






Körner 9.2







www.ham-radio.com





I use delrin as the insulator material on my LPDAs.


----------



## ipilcher

ipilcher said:


> I've ordered the beads that you recommended, and I'm going to play around with them. I'll post my results back here.


The results are in, and they're positive. With the ferrite beads around the feed line, along the lower part of the J-mount, I am able to secure the line to the antenna boom, with pretty much no loss in the reported signal quality.










(Just waiting for my shrink tubing to arrive to finish up.)


----------



## Calaveras

That's good news but Method #2 also calls for beads at the feed point. That should allow you to pretty much eliminate the loop completely.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

Calaveras said:


> Bob,
> 
> That's an FM antenna. See here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Körner 9.2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ham-radio.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I use delrin as the insulator material on my LPDAs.


Interesting the Russian guy mounted his vertically, I'd say sideways but so be it. My sympathies to him, as he lost them in a windstorm.









And this gentleman from New York ordered his from Germany! By the way that couldn't have been cheap ! 

I have to say that's one of those cool look Europeans designs! The rear reflector. I wonder how would you perform with a single reflector?


----------



## Calaveras

Unfortunately what antennas look like often sell more antennas than the actual performance. Let's look at the 9.2 vs K6STI's small 5 element FM Yagi.






Small Five-Element Yagi







www.ham-radio.com





The 5 el has 5.25 to 7.25 dB gain with a F/R of 20 dB or slightly better.






Körner 9.2







www.ham-radio.com





The 9.2 has 6.2 to 7.5 dB gain with a F/R mostly 30 dB or slightly better.

The 9.2 beats the 5 el by 1 to 1.25 dB. 1 dB is too small to be able to tell any difference on FM, an analog broadcast. The 9.2 beats the 5 el on F/R by 10 dB. That's a big number but I wonder how many people need more than 20dB F/R? Probably not many.

Then there's mounting it. In the above picture my homemade 9.2 is only mounted at 22'. That's only 2 waves at 98 MHz. I don't have space for it on my big tower. OTOH I was easily able to mount the much smaller 5 el on my big tower at 57'. That's 5.7 waves high.

The bottom line is the 5 el works better here than the 9.22 because it's so much higher.











5 element FM yagi is 3rd from the top antenna.


----------



## ipilcher

Calaveras said:


> That's good news but Method #2 also calls for beads at the feed point. That should allow you to pretty much eliminate the loop completely.


It's actually a bit confusing, because it also talks about the case where no balun is required at the feed point (although the drawing does show one). Given that the (admittedly questionable) installation instructions for the antenna don't call for a balun at all, the beads would be a fair bit of weight hanging at the end of the boom, and most importantly the fact that it's working well enough in this configuration, I'm declaring victory.


----------



## Calaveras

I agree that the article is confusing. I'm not comfortable with no balun at the feed point. There is one exception. If you run the coax through the center of the boom that the coax shield connects to, you don't need a balun. The Steren VHF/UHF LPDA does this. You can see the feed point connector at the bottom of the attached image. Unfortunately you can no longer purchase this antenna.


----------



## hdtvluvr

Well, I posted above about getting OTA and had a link to rabbit ears. Now, before I can even go to the home and try to get OTA, we've decided to buy another house. So here is my report for the new home: Rabbit Ears Report

I have the Antenna Direct DB 8e, Antenna Direct VHF Kit and the Televes 560383 Single Input Antenna Preamp. What are my chances of getting OTA? Looks like the antenna would be pointed toward a Preserve area full of trees. If it was mounted on the roof/soffit, it would be perhaps 12 - 14 ft off the ground.


----------



## LenL

You may be OK with that equipment. Only one way to find out.


----------



## Calaveras

55 miles is certainly a possible distance and Rabbitears shows all the stations LOS. The trees will likely be a problem if they're close by (like in the edge of your property) and they're a dense forest. Your weakest network station is NBC on RF11. An add-on may not be good enough. If you need a DB8e for UHF then you also need a good directional VHF antenna.


----------



## hdtvluvr

Calaveras said:


> 55 miles is certainly a possible distance and Rabbitears shows all the stations LOS. The trees will likely be a problem if they're close by (like in the edge of your property) and they're a dense forest. Your weakest network station is NBC on RF11. An add-on may not be good enough. If you need a DB8e for UHF then you also need a good directional VHF antenna.


The trees do start at the edge of the property and it is dense. So are you saying the VHF add-on kit may not be enough? If not, which VHF would you recommend?


----------



## fri1038

Just pointing out that WESH (NBC) RF11 is ATSC 3.0 according to rabbitears. Its ATSC 1.0 carriage is on WKCF RF23. So VHF may not be a factor if you aren't interested in ATSC 3.0 at this time.

Nearby trees do cause a multipath problem for UHF, much more so than VHF, in my experience, to add two more cents.

edit: I missed hi VHFers WACX and WOFT at first glance. You'll have to check their programming (religious, shopping, Retro, etc) and decide if they are worth going after in addition to the atsc 3.0 consideration.



Calaveras said:


> 55 miles is certainly a possible distance and Rabbitears shows all the stations LOS. The trees will likely be a problem if they're close by (like in the edge of your property) and they're a dense forest. Your weakest network station is NBC on RF11. An add-on may not be good enough. If you need a DB8e for UHF then you also need a good directional VHF antenna.





hdtvluvr said:


> The trees do start at the edge of the property and it is dense. So are you saying the VHF add-on kit may not be enough? If not, which VHF would you recommend?


----------



## hdtvluvr

Well, thanks everyone. It'll be months before I can go down and spend time trying to see what I can get. And with the ATSC 3, I'd have to get a separate tuner or new TV at that time and then hope I could receive all of the channels again. Are ATSC tuners backward compatible? In other words, will that tuner get ATSC 3 and get channels that haven't switched?


----------



## erpster190

hdtvluvr said:


> TV Fool Forums
> 
> Still works for me. But TVFool.com hangs.


TVFool is dead, along with its forums

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/cordcutters/comments/pn6mmo


----------



## fri1038

hdtvluvr said:


> Are ATSC tuners backward compatible? In other words, will that tuner get ATSC 3 and get channels that haven't switched?


Yes.


----------



## jkeldo

erpster190 said:


> TVFool is dead, along with its forums
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/cordcutters/comments/pn6mmo


The forums were still working about two weeks ago but there had not been much activity there. Still, when looking for information on antennas, preamps etc., there was some good information.


----------



## Prototype3a

Figured I would "report in".

I finally picked up an AvantX and I have to say that I'm pretty impressed with it but it does REALLY help to have an AirspyR2 and SpectrumSpy you can actually measure things and understand what the system is doing and what each antenna is receiving.

I'm sort of shocked that replacing my distribution amp with a passive splitter and replacing some other hardware with the AvantX has finally enabled me to get a solid lock on WUNL. So far, it basically never breaks up or has any issues even though, the signal directly from the antenna is pretty terrible.

I still want to either build a custom, highly directional single channel yagi for WUNL or maybe buy a second commercial yagi to combine with the one I have as a sort of "science experiment" to see if I can get a better raw signal.

FWIW, this is what my "antenna farm" looks like today...










@Trip in VA
Could you add a column of checkboxes to your signal analysis page so you can tell the ... umm... over head view?... to ignore some stations? I was thinking that it would be really nice to be able to only have it display the stations that you're interested in, to declutter the view and make it a little easier to ponder what the best solution might be.


----------



## Prototype3a

Oh. One thing I forgot is that I'm sort of confused as to the purpose of the "FM input" on the AvantX. Is this for a dedicated FM antenna and it automatically adds that to the output? Also, does anyone know what the "test" output is for or what the average user could use it for?


----------



## Primestar31

Prototype3a said:


> Oh. One thing I forgot is that I'm sort of confused as to the purpose of the "FM input" on the AvantX. Is this for a dedicated FM antenna and it automatically adds that to the output? Also, does anyone know what the "test" output is for or what the average user could use it for?


Yes, it's for a dedicated FM antenna to be added. The test output (I believe) is a lower output level, like you'd use in a single residence, as opposed to an apartment building and the like.


----------



## TelevesTech

Prototype3a said:


> Oh. One thing I forgot is that I'm sort of confused as to the purpose of the "FM input" on the AvantX. Is this for a dedicated FM antenna and it automatically adds that to the output? Also, does anyone know what the "test" output is for or what the average user could use it for?


The FM input is a dedicated and filtered input for an FM antenna or feed that gets adjusted alongside the TV carriers based on the programmed level. Diagram below.
The test output is a fixed 20dB down level output from the main output, used in commercial installs (or otherwise) for testing purposes without interfering with the system’s operation. It also enlarges the range of possible output levels to 10dBmV - 55dBmV (main is 30 to 55dBmV). For residential installs it typically provides more than enough power to feed the system and avoids the need for external attenuators.



https://www.televes.com/pub/media/catalog/product/532180_application.jpg


----------



## Prototype3a

So, I guess I could monitor the output with my Airspy R2 using the "test" output. I might connect it up just to see what things looking on that port.


----------



## TelevesTech

Prototype3a said:


> So, I guess I could monitor the output with my Airspy R2 using the "test" output. I might connect it up just to see what things looking on that port.


Absolutely. It will show the same you have on the main output, just -20dB


----------



## LaserBeamSC

Ness Electronics is selling a new “extreme fringe” VHF-Hi antenna from Sky Blue. I requested a gain chart but Ness could not provide one. It looks pretty awesome and could be a good solution for VHF-Hi troubles.


----------



## Primestar31

LaserBeamSC said:


> Ness Electronics is selling a new “extreme fringe” VHF-Hi antenna from Sky Blue. I requested a gain chart but Ness could not provide one. It looks pretty awesome and could be a good solution for VHF-Hi troubles.
> View attachment 3240034


My AntennaCraft Y10-7-13 is 10ft long, double-dipole, and is rated around 10 ~ 12 dbD. (NOT dbi)

I'd think the above antenna would likely also be around that. If so, that price wouldn't be out of line at all.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

Primestar31 said:


> My AntennaCraft Y10-7-13 is 10ft long, double-dipole, and is rated around 10 ~ 12 dbD. (NOT dbi)
> 
> I'd think the above antenna would likely also be around that. If so, that price wouldn't be out of line at all.


I think the only thing you could do better is build your own VHF High antenna. Turned out to be a pretty good hack. It took 2 30-2476 Antennas. Replacing the four tube reflector with a single reflector cost about a half dB loss.


----------



## LenL

Prototype3a said:


> Figured I would "report in".
> 
> I finally picked up an AvantX and I have to say that I'm pretty impressed with it but it does REALLY help to have an AirspyR2 and SpectrumSpy you can actually measure things and understand what the system is doing and what each antenna is receiving.
> 
> I'm sort of shocked that replacing my distribution amp with a passive splitter and replacing some other hardware with the AvantX has finally enabled me to get a solid lock on WUNL. So far, it basically never breaks up or has any issues even though, the signal directly from the antenna is pretty terrible.
> 
> I still want to either build a custom, highly directional single channel yagi for WUNL or maybe buy a second commercial yagi to combine with the one I have as a sort of "science experiment" to see if I can get a better raw signal.
> 
> FWIW, this is what my "antenna farm" looks like today...
> View attachment 3239426
> 
> 
> 
> @Trip in VA
> Could you add a column of checkboxes to your signal analysis page so you can tell the ... umm... over head view?... to ignore some stations? I was thinking that it would be really nice to be able to only have it display the stations that you're interested in, to declutter the view and make it a little easier to ponder what the best solution might be.


I think you need to add another antenna to make it into the Guiness Book of World Records! OMG what have you done there!


----------



## cpalmer2k

Let me preface this by saying I understand up front that omni-directional antennas in general sacrifice overall signal strength in order to achieve reception from all directions. That having been said, I'm curious if any of our resident experts have encountered an omni-directional (or regular antenna with good side/back reception) that might be of use in my situation. My in laws are putting their camper in a permanent location and as part of that would like to add an OTA antenna since cable isn't an option at the site. Reviewing Rabbit Ears & the FCC maps it's a difficult area in general, but it does appear they can get all the channels they need from multiple markets. The catch is they need something omni directional in an ideal world to pull them in without having to rely on multiple antennas. 

The attached image shows the ideal scenario, with most of the channels coming from the Wilmington market and the remaining channels coming from their actual market. All of the stations mapped on this image are in the "Green" category, which helps at least. 

The station at the bottom of the map is WMBF, the NBC station at about 17 miles so it is the strongest stations. The stations near Dillon are the weakest overall, with some of them unlikely to be picked up but the stronger Wilmington stations should fill that void. 

Rabbit Ears: *RabbitEars.Info* 

FCC Map:


----------



## LaserBeamSC

The Winegard Metro Star 360 series is a pretty good omni-directional. I’m not sure exactly what models are discontinued but one of those might give them a shot but not enough height could be a problem. I would suggest a DB8e with panels facing Wilmington and Dillon but getting WBTW RF 13 could be a problem even with the VHF add on. The Myrtle Beach area has always had trouble with getting solid reception but most have rinky dink setups. I have a Winegard Metro and the DB8e if they would like to try it. I’m 15 miles on the other side of Conway. Good luck!


----------



## richart

If they could live with just the stations from Myrtle Beach and Wilmington you could possibly use a bi-directional antenna such as the Antennas Direct Clearstream 4Max or a 4-bay bow tie UHF antenna with the reflector removed.


----------



## cpalmer2k

LaserBeamSC said:


> The Winegard Metro Star 360 series is a pretty good omni-directional. I’m not sure exactly what models are discontinued but one of those might give them a shot but not enough height could be a problem. I would suggest a DB8e with panels facing Wilmington and Dillon but getting WBTW RF 13 could be a problem even with the VHF add on. The Myrtle Beach area has always had trouble with getting solid reception but most have rinky dink setups. I have a Winegard Metro and the DB8e if they would like to try it. I’m 15 miles on the other side of Conway. Good luck!


Yeah it's a strange market. We were down last year in a rental that didn't have cable. They had one of those flimsy indoor panel antennas hanging behind the TV cabinet. Ironically it did a better job of picking up Wilmington and Charleston than it did the actual MB stations. I assumed WBTW and WPDE were most likely going to be no go's, but if I can at least pull in one MB station for weather the Wilmington stations should fill the gaps.




richart said:


> If they could live with just the stations from Myrtle Beach and Wilmington you could possibly use a bi-directional antenna such as the Antennas Direct Clearstream 4Max or a 4-bay bow tie UHF antenna with the reflector removed.


They're not real picky as far as that goes, they just want to be able to receive one station for each network at least. WMBF should come in with it being so close, which would give them at least one "local" station for weather reports, etc. If the rest are from Wilmington it won't really matter that much. I considered the 4Max but if I point at Wilmington I would essentially be depending upon the side of the antenna to pick up the MB stations. I could try aiming halfway between the MB & Wilmington stations as a trial to see what that does though. I might be able to hit the sweet spot and make that work..


----------



## LaserBeamSC

cpalmer2k said:


> Yeah it's a strange market. We were down last year in a rental that didn't have cable. They had one of those flimsy indoor panel antennas hanging behind the TV cabinet. Ironically it did a better job of picking up Wilmington and Charleston than it did the actual MB stations. I assumed WBTW and WPDE were most likely going to be no go's, but if I can at least pull in one MB station for weather the Wilmington stations should fill the gaps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They're not real picky as far as that goes, they just want to be able to receive one station for each network at least. WMBF should come in with it being so close, which would give them at least one "local" station for weather reports, etc. If the rest are from Wilmington it won't really matter that much. I considered the 4Max but if I point at Wilmington I would essentially be depending upon the side of the antenna to pick up the MB stations. I could try aiming halfway between the MB & Wilmington stations as a trial to see what that does though.


Since they are not real picky, richart makes a good suggestion with the AD 4 Max. It is possible to receive Wilmington and Charleston as well as WMBF and WHMC from the side. There is also RF 31 in Myrtle Beach with about 10 sub channels and the low country of Charleston is a favorable market from this area and the AD Max antennas are pretty solid performers. Be sure to post results in Myrtle Beach forum because I’m interested in how that turns out.


----------



## cpalmer2k

LaserBeamSC said:


> Since they are not real picky, richart makes a good suggestion with the AD 4 Max. It is possible to receive Wilmington and Charleston as well as WMBF and WHMC from the side. There is also RF 31 in Myrtle Beach with about 10 sub channels and the low country of Charleston is a favorable market from this area and the AD Max antennas are pretty solid performers. Be sure to post results in Myrtle Beach forum because I’m interested in how that turns out.


Will do. My home antenna took some damage during the snowstorm we had a few weeks back here in the upstate so I've been working reconfiguring everything here too. I was planning to pick up one of the Clearstream Antennas to try along with a couple of the RCA YAGI's.


----------



## richart

cpalmer2k said:


> Will do. My home antenna took some damage during the snowstorm we had a few weeks back here in the upstate so I've been working reconfiguring everything here too. I was planning to pick up one of the Clearstream Antennas to try along with a couple of the RCA YAGI's.


The 4 Max has a beam width of 45 degrees. With a little careful aiming it might work well.


----------



## Gibson_s

richart said:


> The 4 Max has a beam width of 45 degrees. With a little careful aiming it might work well.
> View attachment 3242921


Don't know which of those 3 towers the person wants but I see all measurements to be well greater than 45 degrees. Good thing about the close signal is that you can point away from it and most likely still get it... but as for the two and near 90 degrees, it'll most likely be one or the other.


----------



## Calaveras

Gibson_s said:


> Don't know which of those 3 towers the person wants but I see all measurements to be well greater than 45 degrees. Good thing about the close signal is that you can point away from it and most likely still get it... but as for the two and near 90 degrees, it'll most likely be one or the other.


Stations nearly 180 degrees apart are unlikely to work with one antenna position. (There are always exceptions in this business.) If it were just a matter of signal strength then strong stations could be received with the antenna pointed anywhere. It is not. When the antenna is far off-pointed from a station frequently multipath becomes severe. I've got a few of these here. The signals look strong enough on my spectrum analyzer but they cannot be decoded. Sometimes you can find an off-pointed spot where one of the them will decode but the SNR is always low.


----------



## Gibson_s

Calaveras said:


> Stations nearly 180 degrees apart are unlikely to work with one antenna position. (There are always exceptions in this business.) If it were just a matter of signal strength then strong stations could be received with the antenna pointed anywhere. It is not. When the antenna is far off-pointed from a station frequently multipath becomes severe. I've got a few of these here. The signals look strong enough on my spectrum analyzer but they cannot be decoded. Sometimes you can find an off-pointed spot where one of the them will decode but the SNR is always low.


I'm directly pointed in the other direction of a local station which is 10 miles away (due South) to my main market which is NW and still get it (75-80%, 25-30 SNR), not pointed anywhere near it. I'm sure if I pointed my antenna South, it would be in the 90% and 30+ SNR, then my main market would probably be in jeopardy.

Don't know the scale on that diagram. If the person is close enough and that closer station is strong enough, he could point to another tower and still get it. It's trial and error.


----------



## jkeldo

cpalmer2k said:


> Will do. My home antenna took some damage during the snowstorm we had a few weeks back here in the upstate so I've been working reconfiguring everything here too. I was planning to pick up one of the Clearstream Antennas to try along with a couple of the RCA YAGI's.


As others have mentioned while the Clearstream 4 is a great antenna, it's beam width is somewhat limited. In my case with a weak station moving it too far one way or the other, around 20 degrees makes a big difference so you will have to hope you're getting a decent signal in the first place. It is a sensitive antenna in any event so a great choice to start with. Never used the RCA so can't comment on that.


----------



## cpalmer2k

jkeldo said:


> As others have mentioned while the Clearstream 4 is a great antenna, it's beam width is somewhat limited. In my case with a weak station moving it too far one way or the other, around 20 degrees makes a big difference so you will have to hope you're getting a decent signal in the first place. It is a sensitive antenna in any event so a great choice to start with. Never used the RCA so can't comment on that.


That was my concern with it. The two tower clusters are very far apart. That was one reason I floated the idea of an omni directional antenna, but I'm not sure that can handle the 50 mile distance. On the other hand one of those flat indoor panel antennas did actually pick up some stations indoors last year, so with a little height they _might_ stand a chance. I think at this point my best plan would be to just go with the 4MAX and point it straight at Wilmington. WMBF (the one station at the bottom 17 miles away) most likely will be strong enough to come in from the back/side and just sacrifice the other Myrtle Beach stations. Unless I got lucky and found an omni directional that would pick up well enough to cover both areas I don't see this working with one antenna. All of the channels are rated as "GREEN" by Rabbitears & the FCC maps, so I may pick up one of those too from a place with a good return policy and try it as well. 










Rabbit Ears: *RabbitEars.Info*


----------



## jspENC

If you want WBTW, you will need an antenna with VHF. You can get CBS easy on WWAY, but don't expect local news. They don't cover that area anymore. I would get one of these if you can.


----------



## Gibson_s

cpalmer2k said:


> That was my concern with it. The two tower clusters are very far apart. That was one reason I floated the idea of an omni directional antenna, but I'm not sure that can handle the 50 mile distance. On the other hand one of those flat indoor panel antennas did actually pick up some stations indoors last year, so with a little height they _might_ stand a chance. I think at this point my best plan would be to just go with the 4MAX and point it straight at Wilmington. WMBF (the one station at the bottom 17 miles away) most likely will be strong enough to come in from the back/side and just sacrifice the other Myrtle Beach stations. Unless I got lucky and found an omni directional that would pick up well enough to cover both areas I don't see this working with one antenna. All of the channels are rated as "GREEN" by Rabbitears & the FCC maps, so I may pick up one of those too from a place with a good return policy and try it as well.
> 
> View attachment 3243338
> 
> 
> Rabbit Ears: *RabbitEars.Info*


A 4Bay will pick up stronger, close stations from the back as well, a more directional Yagi will have a harder time. If it's just one station that's close to you it might be expendable and you can concentrate on one of the markets or get a rotor installed (or 2 antennas) and have both major markets.

If you have VHF stations you will need some VHF elements as well. Haven't seen a report, so you'd have to check that.


----------



## KeithWE6R

LaserBeamSC said:


> Ness Electronics is selling a new “extreme fringe” VHF-Hi antenna from Sky Blue. I requested a gain chart but Ness could not provide one. It looks pretty awesome and could be a good solution for VHF-Hi troubles.
> View attachment 3240034


Hmm, Ness lists this at $200 and does not have a picture. https://www.nesselectronics.com/products/sky-blue-antenna-high-vhf-ch-7-13-hdtv-137-length.
If my Televes 148383 needs help, I may take the VHF elements off of it and combine this. 
Still trying to see if it is feasible to side mount them off the SIDE of a Rohn 25 and rotate both (I only need to sweep about 180 degrees).
Keith T in Santa Cruz


----------



## LaserBeamSC

KeithWE6R said:


> Hmm, Ness lists this at $200 and does not have a picture. https://www.nesselectronics.com/products/sky-blue-antenna-high-vhf-ch-7-13-hdtv-137-length.
> If my Televes 148383 needs help, I may take the VHF elements off of it and combine this.
> Still trying to see if it is feasible to side mount them off the SIDE of a Rohn 25 and rotate both (I only need to sweep about 180 degrees).
> Keith T in Santa Cruz


Ness sends out a weekly email with sales so I emailed about the length of the sale and the reply was it was on sale for the month. It was in the weekly email again today. I’m thinking about ordering one for my regional VHF’s and DXing but I would like to see a gain chart.


----------



## KeithWE6R

LaserBeamSC said:


> Ness sends out a weekly email with sales so I emailed about the length of the sale and the reply was it was on sale for the month. It was in the weekly email again today. I’m thinking about ordering one for my regional VHF’s and DXing but I would like to see a gain chart.


It should be a little better than the Stellar Labs 30-2476. Both are typical yagi designs, so looking up a typical gain for number of directors should be close enough.
Stellar Labs has 7 directors, the SB33 has 11. 
Yagi–Uda antenna - Wikipedia 
There is a point of diminishing returns in adding directors. If you co-phased two of the same type antennas together, it would be a 3db gain. 
Assuming each antenna is designed properly, the SB33 would be less than 3db better than the Stellar Labs.
Has anyone done testing, or have specs on the Stellar labs?
Keith T in Santa Cruz.


----------



## eracet

I have had a antenna on top of my roof , on a short mount for a few years.
Recently I noticed that a few of the channels had issues (Think it is still a tower issue)
But I upgraded to a stronger antenna, and pointed it directly that way.
Now the signal is ok, but not great.
So thinking of adding back my original antenna to point them in 2 directions.
I think if I point the original one to the east , and the new one to the south it will be good.
Looked at ideas to combine two antennas or possibly more, ran into old information
Have a coax leading from antenna to a preamp (sometimes) then to a Tablo.

Both antenna are VHS/UHF can give links if needed


----------



## Calaveras

eracet said:


> So thinking of adding back my original antenna to point them in 2 directions.
> I think if I point the original one to the east , and the new one to the south it will be good.
> Looked at ideas to combine two antennas or possibly more, ran into old information
> Have a coax leading from antenna to a preamp (sometimes) then to a Tablo.
> 
> Both antenna are VHS/UHF can give links if needed


You need a Televes Advant X:






Avant X - Programmable amplifiers - Filtering and amplification - TV DISTRIBUTION


The amplified channels are configured using 32 digital and individually programmable filters. Very easy configuration and adjustment using ASuite applicati




www.televes.com





I think there's a competitor now too.

Don't combine two antennas with a splitter in reverse since that frequently doesn't work. The signals interfere with each other.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

eracet said:


> I have had a antenna on top of my roof , on a short mount for a few years.
> Recently I noticed that a few of the channels had issues (Think it is still a tower issue)
> But I upgraded to a stronger antenna, and pointed it directly that way.
> Now the signal is ok, but not great.
> So thinking of adding back my original antenna to point them in 2 directions.
> I think if I point the original one to the east , and the new one to the south it will be good.
> Looked at ideas to combine two antennas or possibly more, ran into old information
> Have a coax leading from antenna to a preamp (sometimes) then to a Tablo.
> 
> Both antenna are VHS/UHF can give links if needed


Calaveras is correct. Most experiences are disappointing when you try to combine TV antennas pointing in different directions. You should still try it. However, you will lose signal no matter what. This is because the splitter in Reverse used as a combiner becomes a very inefficient device losing 3 to 3.5 or possibly more dB of signal.

He also suggested the Avant X as a way to gain as many stations as possible. As a user, I have to agree, I have an Avant X and also SmartKom. The idea is the same for both devices. Avant X is available now and SmartKom is not available in the US yet but soon it should be out soon.

The Avant X is an indoor item, whereas the SmartKom actually can work indoors or Outdoors up on the mast and replaces your Mast preamp while fulfilling the capabilities of the Avant X, which is filtering out the unwanted signals from each antenna array. That eliminates multipath and co-channel interference. When the intended signal from the correct antenna comes in without interference it is the correct strength. It's amazing, like magic.





























Here's what the programming screen looks like on my Windows 10 computer. I can also use my Android smartphone:











So, I kind of uploaded the wrong screenshots, these are just photos off my computer screen. The top one is the corrected Spectrum with two antennas combined, it in green. The blue traces are different combinations of antennas combined pointing in two different markets. 





























Here is a graph which I carefully annotated the MER readings which is very definitive, basically a signal quality indication.:










SmartKom comes in a different form factor but the case is second to none for keeping things dry, simply because most will mount it outside because of the very many benefits, like eliminating the need for preamps on each antenna. You can combine up to 3 antennas and bring the signal down with only one coax cable :










This may look like an advertisement for Televes, but I don't work for them, but I've never seen a product work this well for solving the problems with combined antennas.


----------



## jpoet

How are you guys generating those level comparison plots? Tuner integrated into a computer with some software?

TIA


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

jpoet said:


> How are you guys generating those level comparison plots? Tuner integrated into a computer with some software?
> 
> TIA


What do you mean us guys? It's just me .

The level comparison is done with a program called "Ear to Ear Oak RTL-SDR Scanner" with a very inexpensive RTL-SDR dongle. I don't have a photo handy. I go straight off the splitter inside the house.
EDIT NEW LINK:








Release v1.3.1 · EarToEarOak/RTLSDR-Scanner


A cross platform Python frequency scanning GUI for the OsmoSDR rtl-sdr library - Release v1.3.1 · EarToEarOak/RTLSDR-Scanner




github.com


----------



## jpoet

ChiwaukeeOTA said:


> What do you mean us guys? It's just me .
> 
> The level comparison is done with a program called "Ear to Oak" with a very inexpensive RTL-SDR dongle. I don't have a photo handy. I go straight off the splitter inside the house.
> 
> 
> 
> http://eartoearoak.com/software/rtlsdr-scanner


Interesting! Is "Ear to Oak" easier or better than Spektrum? I ask because I am finding more information for Spektrum.


----------



## gbynum

ChiwaukeeOTA said:


> The level comparison is done with a program called "Ear to Oak" with a very inexpensive RTL-SDR dongle. I don't have a photo handy. I go straight off the splitter inside the house.
> 
> 
> 
> http://eartoearoak.com/software/rtlsdr-scanner


I've done ZERO troubleshooting, but you might want to freshen the link?

*Not Found*
The requested URL was not found on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.


----------



## rabbit73

jpoet said:


> How are you guys generating those level comparison plots? Tuner integrated into a computer with some software?
> 
> TIA


ChiwaukeeeOTA is using an RTL_SDR V3 dongle:
Buy RTL-SDR Dongles (RTL2832U)










It only covers about 2 MHz with SDR Sharp software, so to use it to cover more than that bandwidth you have to assemble DIY free software from GitHub to turn it into a spectrum analyzer for many channels.
GitHub - EarToEarOak/RTLSDR-Scanner: A cross platform Python frequency scanning GUI for the OsmoSDR rtl-sdr library
Manual
https://github.com/EarToEarOak/RTLSDR-Scanner/blob/master/doc/Manual.pdf?raw=true

I use V1.3.0 64bit; click on Assets.
Releases · EarToEarOak/RTLSDR-Scanner
There used to be a tutorial by Pete Higgins on another forum, but it is no longer available. Here is part of it:
*Tips for Setting Up an RTL-SDR Dongle as a Spectrum Analyzer* 








OTA Signal Analyzers, Meters, Aimers, Bench Gear...


Finally got around to chasing this source of noise down, briefly mentioned here in this other thread. https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81-over-air-ota-digital-television/287593-vhf-woes.html#post3090167 Using updateDVB and the mohu TV tuner mentioned above, as seen by my OTA antenna system...




www.digitalhome.ca


----------



## LaserBeamSC

rabbit73 said:


> ChiwaukeeeOTA is using an RTL_SDR V3 dongle:
> Buy RTL-SDR Dongles (RTL2832U)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It only covers about 2 MHz with SDR Sharp software, so to use it to cover more than that bandwidth you have to assemble DIY free software from GitHub to turn it into a spectrum analyzer for many channels.
> GitHub - EarToEarOak/RTLSDR-Scanner: A cross platform Python frequency scanning GUI for the OsmoSDR rtl-sdr library
> Manual
> https://github.com/EarToEarOak/RTLSDR-Scanner/blob/master/doc/Manual.pdf?raw=true
> 
> I use V1.3.0 64bit; click on Assets.
> Releases · EarToEarOak/RTLSDR-Scanner
> There used to be a tutorial by Pete Higgins on another forum, but it is no longer available.


Welcome back Rabbit! Great to see you on!


----------



## jpoet

Thank you rabit73. That is very helpful.


----------



## rabbit73

LaserBeamSC said:


> Welcome back Rabbit! Great to see you on!


Thank you.

I'm not really back because I'm having some health problems, but I couldn't resist the urge to help ChiwaukeeOTA because he has been very helpful to me.


----------



## rabbit73

jpoet said:


> Thank you rabit73. That is very helpful.


You are welcome. I'm not a software expert, so it took me 3 attempts to get it working for me. I have only used it for single scans. ChiwaukeeOTA is the expert at combining 2 scans for a comparison.


----------



## LenL

I have one RTL_SDR V3 dongle for sale that I am not using if you need one PM me.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

gbynum said:


> I've done ZERO troubleshooting, but you might want to freshen the link?
> 
> *Not Found*
> The requested URL was not found on this server.
> 
> Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.


Yeah, I just tried it, it doesn't go through. Out of ideas. try V 1.3.1

Release v1.3.1 · EarToEarOak/RTLSDR-Scanner


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

rabbit73 said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I'm not really back because I'm having some health problems, but I couldn't resist the urge to help ChiwaukeeOTA because he has been very helpful to me.


Awww, shucks Rabbit.. that is one hell of a compliment from the most helpful person I know doing this hobby. In 2016 you got me started doing things the right way. Remember when it took 2 or 3 months to get approved for TV Fool? By the time I got approved I didn't need any help because you helped me through PMs and you also posted all my crazy ideas for me. I made your head spin, didn't I? 

I went back to look, but it only took me back to 2018. 

I hope things are better. I really miss your interaction here! I sent a couple of messages also.


----------



## ughAudio

[QUOTE="rabbit73, post: 61644304]"
Thank you.

I'm not really back because I'm having some health problems, but I couldn't resist the urge to help ChiwaukeeOTA because he has been very helpful to me.
[/QUOTE]

Dear Rabbit73,

I am so unhappy to learn to learn about your health - I haven't posted since last year around the time you helped me with questions in the grounding/bonding sub. I noted your absence over the following weeks and months and it just *was not the same here without you*

I hesitated to even post to ask of your absence for fear of sadness.

I just HAD to rejoin (previous email/website was dissolved) to post my appreciation for you.

My many wishes for your health.

As well, it's said that laughter is important for the immune system... I hope the following screenshot from a reputable online-seller of manufacturers, like Televes and Winegard, gets you laughing!

What a price huh?  Bad, BAD copywriters.

ALL MY BEST to you Rabbit73!
- ughAudio


----------



## LenL

LenL said:


> Calaveras,
> 
> I hooked it up and got great VHF and not so great UHF as you pointed out. I did get some UHF but not what I get from my small RCA 751. It is not useable as an antenna unless I could get better UHF.
> 
> So I don't think this is an option to use unless there is a way to make some modification to produce better UHF. What is odd about this antenna is all of the many elements devoted to only pick up VHF? I have some more pictures of the design especially the front part of the antenna which has the many smaller (Smaller than the elements at the back) elements.
> 
> So if anyone has any idea on how to modify to add UHF I am all ears and eyes!
> 
> View attachment 3218318
> View attachment 3218319
> View attachment 3218320
> View attachment 3218321


Awhile back (in January) I posted pictures of this VHF antenna I found in a house I moved to in 2020.

My question is what is the best way to combine it with a CM4228 that I have and not using. The VHF antenna does pick up some UHF and the CM4228 does pick up some VHF. So do I need to suppress/Filter out the UHF from the VHF antenna and the VHF from the CM4228 and then combine them? If so what is the best way to do this and not lose signal? All advice and comments appreciated!


----------



## Primestar31

LenL said:


> Awhile back (in January) I posted pictures of this VHF antenna I found in a house I moved to in 2020.
> 
> My question is what is the best way to combine it with a CM4228 that I have and not using. The VHF antenna does pick up some UHF and the CM4228 does pick up some VHF. So do I need to suppress/Filter out the UHF from the VHF antenna and the VHF from the CM4228 and then combine them? If so what is the best way to do this and not lose signal? All advice and comments appreciated!


You need a UVSJ. They are getting a bit hard to find, but this one should work fine for you. It'll filter the different bands exactly like you mention above: Weatherproof MATV Antenna Combiner/Joiner/Separator, Combines UHF/VHF Antennas 9311554572365 | eBay


----------



## LenL

Thanks for the advice Primestar31. I'll have to give the UVSJ a try over the next few days.


----------



## ughAudio

Primestar31 said:


> You need a UVSJ. They are getting a bit hard to find, but this one should work fine for you. It'll filter the different bands exactly like you mention above: Weatherproof MATV Antenna Combiner/Joiner/Separator, Combines UHF/VHF Antennas 9311554572365 | eBay


Whoa! It's gone up in price from Ness/ebay by 33% (14.95 -->19.95) since last year when I bought it.

Guess the 3105-DPOUV is the only game in town now that the (1) blonder-tongues and (2)radio-shack 15-2586's are rarely to be found (the latter so highly reviewed/measured by rabbit73.


----------



## LenL

Just an update. I was going to try the UVSJ but then realized I have a CM preamp that has separate ports for a UHF and VHF feed and an fm trap. So I tried this first. I am checking the results and next I will try the UVSJ without the preamp.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

LenL said:


> Just an update. I was going to try the UVSJ but then realized I have a CM preamp that has separate ports for a UHF and VHF feed and an fm trap. So I tried this first. I am checking the results and next I will try the UVSJ without the preamp.


Which CM preamp? Keep us updated, I'm interested to see how that preamp does for you.


----------



## LenL

I tried the CM Titan 7777 preamp and I tried it with the UVSJ. With the 7777 preamp the signal strength was higher (as expected) but signal quality was a bit lower than using the UVSJ with NO preamp. I have a spreadsheet with the results using DVR+ to show signal quality and strength:


Date: 5/15/22Time: 5PMCM4228 +VHF with preampATTICStationBroadcast LocationNew Video FreqNew Real Chan#Virt Chan#SQWCBS1WTC603.25362.1100100WNBC1WTC596.25354.1100100WNYW1WTC548.25275.11000WABCESB175.2577.1100100WWOR1WTC536.25259.110061WPIXESB199.251111.1100100WNET1WTC204.251213.1100100WLIW1WTC5783221.110047WYNE1WTC531.252425.1100100WPXN1WTC590.253431.11000WXTV1WTC542.252641.1900WNJNBask Ridge180.25850.1100100WMBC1WTC495.251863.1100100Avg All99.2​69.8​
 


Date: 5/16/22Time: 10 AMCM4228 +VHF UVSJATTICStationBroadcast LocationNew Video FreqNew Real Chan#Virt Chan#SQWCBS1WTC603.25362.172100WNBC1WTC596.25354.168100WNYW1WTC548.25275.15459WABCESB175.2577.1100100WWOR1WTC536.25259.148100WPIXESB199.251111.197100WNET1WTC204.251213.194100WLIW1WTC5783221.1325WYNE1WTC531.252425.165100WPXN1WTC590.253431.1440WXTV1WTC542.252641.1220WNJNBask Ridge180.25850.1100100WMBC1WTC495.251863.197100Avg All68.7​74.2​


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

LenL said:


> I tried the CM Titan 7777 preamp and I tried it with the UVSJ. With the 7777 preamp the signal strength was higher (as expected) but signal quality was a bit lower than using the UVSJ with NO preamp. I have a spreadsheet with the results using DVR+ to show signal quality and strength:
> 
> 
> Date: 5/15/22Time: 5PMCM4228 +VHF with preampATTICStationBroadcast LocationNew Video FreqNew Real Chan#Virt Chan#SQWCBS1WTC603.25362.1100100WNBC1WTC596.25354.1100100WNYW1WTC548.25275.11000WABCESB175.2577.1100100WWOR1WTC536.25259.110061WPIXESB199.251111.1100100WNET1WTC204.251213.1100100WLIW1WTC5783221.110047WYNE1WTC531.252425.1100100WPXN1WTC590.253431.11000WXTV1WTC542.252641.1900WNJNBask Ridge180.25850.1100100WMBC1WTC495.251863.1100100Avg All99.2​69.8​
> 
> 
> 
> Date: 5/16/22Time: 10 AMCM4228 +VHF UVSJATTICStationBroadcast LocationNew Video FreqNew Real Chan#Virt Chan#SQWCBS1WTC603.25362.172100WNBC1WTC596.25354.168100WNYW1WTC548.25275.15459WABCESB175.2577.1100100WWOR1WTC536.25259.148100WPIXESB199.251111.197100WNET1WTC204.251213.194100WLIW1WTC5783221.1325WYNE1WTC531.252425.165100WPXN1WTC590.253431.1440WXTV1WTC542.252641.1220WNJNBask Ridge180.25850.1100100WMBC1WTC495.251863.197100Avg All68.7​74.2​



Nice spread sheet, I wish everybody did them like that. The CM7777 is quite a noisy preamp. You could use a Kitz KT-700 for joining your UHF/VHF array. 
KT-700 TV Booster (kitztech.com)

If you want to stick with the UVSJ, I would try a Kitz KT-200 for low noise and good preamp boost. That would definitely help.
KT-200 TV Booster (kitztech.com) 

Or the Televes 560383 after the UVSJ. That would be useful if you had some strong signals. The AGC can be quite useful for that.


----------



## LenL

Thanks for the suggestions. Not sure I need to spend anymore money to pick up those problem UHF stations.

I am in a holding pattern for now and experimenting some more with the connections. I'm not too sure about even using any preamp at this point since the CM4428 antenna is like 10 feet from the TV set. So there is very little signal loss between the antenna and the TV. The VHF monster antenna is about 20 feet away and it really did not show a need for a preamp. The problem stations are UHF and with the preamp they were still a problem. 

I might try relocating the CM4228 to see if it will help with the problem UHF stations.


----------



## LenL

I moved the CM4228 antenna about 8 feet and the UHF reception on the problem stations got much better! Problem solved without using preamps etc..


----------



## cpalmer2k

Just curious if anyone here has any experience using the commonly available surplus military tent pole/antenna masts as masts for OTA antennas? Looking online the fiberglass ones are thicker (1.82 inches in diameter) and cheaper, and the aluminum ones are 1.75 inches in diameter and more expensive, but still much cheaper than regularly sold antenna mast pipes. I've read conflicting reports on both. Some say they've used the fiberglass ones at 20 feet for 20 years with no issues, while others say go with the aluminum and they will last forever as well. In my case my house has a very high roofline, so it will be mounted on one corner of the house on the back and attached to the wall with brackets. Only about 10 feet or so will extend above the roofline. Others say to run away from them completely. 

Likewise my wife's parents camp a lot this time of year and their camper mounted antenna only gets semi decent reception. I was thinking about using the aluminum in my situation, but picking up a set of the fiberglass ones for them to use as a 'temporary" pole when they travel. MTC advertises a pretty reasonable speaker stand/tripod that they sell on the basis that it is compatible with these military masts. It would be really easy for them to pop one of the smaller RCA directional antennas or one of the Antennas Direct ClearStreams onto a section of mast and aim it for the weekend. Some sand bags or weights attached to the tripod should keep it stable enough for short term use?


----------



## Primestar31

Well, that was weird.


----------



## Primestar31

cpalmer2k said:


> Just curious if anyone here has any experience using the commonly available surplus military tent pole/antenna masts as masts for OTA antennas? Looking online the fiberglass ones are thicker (1.82 inches in diameter) and cheaper, and the aluminum ones are 1.75 inches in diameter and more expensive, but still much cheaper than regularly sold antenna mast pipes. I've read conflicting reports on both. Some say they've used the fiberglass ones at 20 feet for 20 years with no issues, while others say go with the aluminum and they will last forever as well. In my case my house has a very high roofline, so it will be mounted on one corner of the house on the back and attached to the wall with brackets. Only about 10 feet or so will extend above the roofline. Others say to run away from them completely.
> 
> Likewise my wife's parents camp a lot this time of year and their camper mounted antenna only gets semi decent reception. I was thinking about using the aluminum in my situation, but picking up a set of the fiberglass ones for them to use as a 'temporary" pole when they travel. MTC advertises a pretty reasonable speaker stand/tripod that they sell on the basis that it is compatible with these military masts. It would be really easy for them to pop one of the smaller RCA directional antennas or one of the Antennas Direct ClearStreams onto a section of mast and aim it for the weekend. Some sand bags or weights attached to the tripod should keep it stable enough for short term use?


Chain link fence TOP RAIL pipe makes perfectly fine mast pipes. Very cheap, comes in 10' lengths, ends are swaged to fit together as many lengths as you need, and as usual, every 10' above the highest eves bracket needs to be guy wired.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

Primestar31 said:


> Chain link fence TOP RAIL pipe makes perfectly fine mast pipes. Very cheap, comes in 10' lengths, ends are swaged to fit together as many lengths as you need, and as usual, every 10' above the highest eves bracket needs to be guy wired.


The chain link fence supply company next door to me has doubled their pricing since inflation has swept the nation.

My most recent purchase was a 24' piece of 1 5/8" SS40 top rail for $100. Pretty stout stuff. It was only $40 about 2 years ago. It comes swaged also.

Of course 1 3/8" top rail is cheaper. It comes in 21' and 24' from my fence supplier. Shorter lengths available at big box stores.

There is 1 3/8" SS20 .090" wall Chain link top rail (pipe) and the cheaper .060" wall which is considered "tubing" and not pipe. Very flexy, but both come swaged. If you stack them, drill and through-bolt the swage connection otherwise it will wobble.

That is all...


----------



## kirk28

Calaveras said:


> Televes 560383 Kit (560331 preamp) Mini-Review and Comparison to the Kitztech KT-200
> 
> With all the recent interest in this preamp I decided to purchase one and run my usual bench tests. I've only attached analyzer displays where it was easier to see the results than just list numbers.
> 
> I did not measure anything on low VHF since there's no benefit to having a preamp on low VHF. Too much environmental noise even in quiet locations and too low coax loss.
> 
> Gain/Bandpass
> 
> See attached displays. Gain on VHF and UHF measured exactly as spec'd. The KT-200 on high VHF is about 25 dB and on UHF about 21 dB with no filtering.
> 
> 
> Noise Figure
> 
> KT-200 High VHF 1.2 to 1.7 dB, UHF 1.3 dB to 1.6 dB
> Televes 560331 High VHF 3.1 dB to 3.3 dB, UHF 2.1 dB to 2.5 dB
> 
> I expected that the Televes would have a slightly higher NF because of the bandpass filters. I think this is about as good as you can expect from a consumer level product. The KT-200 has no filtering except for FM. I doubt that anyone would notice the difference in NF. The filtering might be more important depending on your local RF environment. If your RF environment is low like mine is, lower NF might be more important.
> 
> Standard NF disclaimer: I don't make any claims for perfectly accurate NF measurements. There are a lot of things that can affect the measurements and I can't account for them all. They're in the ballpark and the KT200 is lower than the 560331.
> 
> FM Filtering
> 
> See attached displays for the FM Filters. I don't like either of these. The KT-200 cuts too far into channel 6 and the 560331 doesn't cut at all into channel 6 and passes a lot of the FM band. If it were up to me, I'd set the attenuation at 4-5 dB at 88 MHz. That would have minimal impact on channel 6 and maximize FM attenuation.
> 
> I took a stab at measuring 3rd Order Intercept Point (IP3). It's not clear how the 560331's AGC is affecting this measurement. The best I can tell is that the 560331 is 2-3 dB lower than the KT-200. It doesn't seem to be an issue.
> 
> VHF Gain/Bandpass
> 
> View attachment 3132641
> 
> 
> 
> UHF Gain/Bandpass
> 
> View attachment 3132642
> 
> 
> 
> KT-200 FM Bnad
> 
> View attachment 3132643
> 
> 
> 
> 560331 FM Band
> 
> View attachment 3132644


I just purchased a Winegard HD7694A antenna and ordered the Televes 560383 after the Winegard preamp lasted all of a week. I was reviewing the specs for this unit and the max operating temperature shows 14/23 - 113F. The antenna is in my attic and during the summer I know it will get above 113 and may get too cold in the winter (Morris County, NJ). Do you know how far away I can install the unit from the antenna - I'm seeing mixed answers in a few places. I'm thinking of the bedroom closet below the antenna so maybe a 10' run with an outlet in close proximity. I did look for instructions online but couldn't find any - just technical data and specs on their site.


----------



## Primestar31

kirk28 said:


> I just purchased a Winegard HD7694A antenna and ordered the Televes 560383 after the Winegard preamp lasted all of a week. I was reviewing the specs for this unit and the max operating temperature shows 14/23 - 113F. The antenna is in my attic and during the summer I know it will get above 113 and may get too cold in the winter (Morris County, NJ). Do you know how far away I can install the unit from the antenna - I'm seeing mixed answers in a few places. I'm thinking of the bedroom closet below the antenna so maybe a 10' run with an outlet in close proximity. I did look for instructions online but couldn't find any - just technical data and specs on their site.


Their temp ratings are very conservative to where they guarantee all stated specs within that range. IF your temps go higher or lower, likely the worst you can expect is a slight variance in the preamps ratings. I doubt you'll even notice any issues at all.

p.s. You can put the preamp anywhere in the coax line between the antenna and the power inserter. However, it's BEST if it's installed as close to the antenna as possible. Certainly, 10' is fine.


----------



## jruano

kirk28 said:


> I just purchased a Winegard HD7694A antenna and ordered the Televes 560383 after the Winegard preamp lasted all of a week. I was reviewing the specs for this unit and the max operating temperature shows 14/23 - 113F. The antenna is in my attic and during the summer I know it will get above 113 and may get too cold in the winter (Morris County, NJ). Do you know how far away I can install the unit from the antenna - I'm seeing mixed answers in a few places. I'm thinking of the bedroom closet below the antenna so maybe a 10' run with an outlet in close proximity. I did look for instructions online but couldn't find any - just technical data and specs on their site.


That question comes up often. All Televes outdoor electronics are tested and validated to work from -20C to +60C (-4F to 140F). Televes is however very conservative in the published temp specs and has a typical standard published of -5C to 45C (23F to 113F) because that’s the range in which the published specs (gain, consumption, maximum output level, etc) are 100% guaranteed to be met. Outside of that range there might be minute deviations in some parameters (think of maybe an amplifier having 1dB less gain in an extreme case, for instance). Even in that case deviations will be minimal and not affect the regular functioning of the device, so -4F to 140F, is just fine.


----------



## LaserBeamSC

This may be old news to some but I just saw where Channel Master introduced the new CM7779HD preamp. I think it’s been out for maybe a month or so and looks similar to their new distribution amps.









TV Antenna PreAmp 1


The Channel Master PreAmp 1 is a professional-grade TV antenna pre-amplifier designed to enhance the performance of any (non-amplified) professional-grade outdoor TV antenna. The PreAmp 1 will boost antenna signal strength, improve signal quality and may increase the number of channels...




www.channelmaster.com


----------



## Digital Rules

I really like this feature. Does anyone know if any other pre-amps have this feature?

*Passive Bypass Feature*

_The Channel Master PreAmp 1 has an integrated passive bypass switch that allows the amplifier to continue passing signals without amplification during a loss of power to the amplifier. Most other amplifiers on the market will not pass signal without being powered. This is a new feature and is the only Channel Master preamplifier with this capability._


----------



## Primestar31

Digital Rules said:


> I really like this feature. Does anyone know if any other pre-amps have this feature?
> 
> *Passive Bypass Feature*
> 
> _The Channel Master PreAmp 1 has an integrated passive bypass switch that allows the amplifier to continue passing signals without amplification during a loss of power to the amplifier. Most other amplifiers on the market will not pass signal without being powered. This is a new feature and is the only Channel Master preamplifier with this capability._


Yes, Televes preamps have had that feature for a long time, and it's automatic. If power is cut to their preamps, it automatically bypasses it.


----------



## Calaveras

Already out of stock and the reviews are from only 1-2 weeks ago? If they ever get back in stock maybe I'll buy one and test it to see if it meets its specs, especially noise figure. They don't say how much loss it has when the power is off. Televes isn't loss free with the power off, just much less loss than your typical preamp.


----------



## LenL

Not sure my TV would work anyway if the power is off unless they come up with a new design so I don't think I would spend money on these preamps! Does NOT make sense to me.


----------



## Calaveras

LenL said:


> Not sure my TV would work anyway if the power is off unless they come up with a new design so I don't think I would spend money on these preamps! Does NOT make sense to me.


I wouldn't recommend it for the power off feature alone. I would recommend it if the noise figure was <2.0 dB as claimed with filtering for the 600 MHz cell band. I'm not aware of any preamp with filtering and a noise figure of <2.0 dB despite what is often claimed.

I see they're changing the gain from 30dB to 17dB with a switch on the power inserter. That's a first. I wonder how they're doing that? Dropping the voltage? Usually changing the voltage will degrade the noise figure. This will be interesting to test once they become available again.


----------



## ughAudio

Calaveras said:


> I see they're changing the gain from 30dB to 17dB with a switch on the power inserter. That's a first.


Yeh, that's REALLY strange.

All sold out on the site now, but with only eight or so positive reviews. Meh.


----------



## ughAudio

ughAudio said:


> Whoa! It's gone up in price from Ness/ebay by 33% (14.95 -->19.95) since last year when I bought it.
> 
> Guess the 3105-DPOUV is the only game in town now that the (1) blonder-tongues and (2)radio-shack 15-2586's are rarely to be found (the latter so highly reviewed/measured by rabbit73.


(14.95 -->19.95) and now $30 on the auction site. :-(((


----------



## ughAudio

ChiwaukeeOTA said:


> The chain link fence supply company next door to me has doubled their pricing since inflation has swept the nation.
> 
> My most recent purchase was a 24' piece of 1 5/8" SS40 for $100. Pretty stout stuff. It was only $40 about 2 years ago. It comes swaged also.
> 
> Of course 1 3/8" top rail is cheaper. It comes in 21' and 24' from my fence supplier. Shorter lengths available at big box stores.
> 
> There is 1 3/8" SS20 .090" wall Chain link top rail (pipe) and the cheaper .060" wall which is considered "tubing" and not pipe. Very flexy, but both come swaged. If you stack them, drill and through-bolt the swage connection otherwise it will wobble.
> 
> That is all...


Price increases CRAZY!

EMT bought last year at big-box place was under $24, now they want $40+ for the same?


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

Calaveras said:


> I wouldn't recommend it for the power off feature alone. I would recommend it if the noise figure was <2.0 dB as claimed with filtering for the 600 MHz cell band. I'm not aware of any preamp with filtering and a noise figure of <2.0 dB despite what is often claimed.
> 
> I see they're changing the gain from 30dB to 17dB with a switch on the power inserter. That's a first. I wonder how they're doing that? Dropping the voltage? Usually changing the voltage will degrade the noise figure. This will be interesting to test once they become available again.





ughAudio said:


> Yeh, that's REALLY strange.
> 
> All sold out on the site now, but with only eight or so positive reviews. Meh.


Channel Master controls their reviews. About a year after I had purchased the 9521A rotators and they both failed. I reviewed them and the negative review was there for about a week and they took it down. So, I would never trust the Channel Master reviews. That's probably why a lot of stuff never makes it to Amazon from them because they can't control the Amazon reviews, at least that I know of.

Calaveras, I would love to see your review when that CM 7779 becomes available.


----------



## Vidop

I see that Top Notch antennas is now able to start selling their XPS-1500 (with VHF kit) model. Has anybody had any experience, or knowledge of this antenna model?









Back in Stock! -Our VHF / UHF Long Range TV Antenna Vers


HEN WILL THIS ITEM SHIP?: This product is finally back in stock and will ship out in approx 2 business days (M-F, excluding weekends and holidays) of your order date. Range Xperts Insane Gain XPS-1500 with VHF Kit - US and Overseas Patented! This version has Both Long Range on VHF & UHF...




topnotchantennas.com


----------



## LenL

I own one and so far it appears to be a very good antenna. I have compared it to the smaller RCA 751 YAGI model which it replaced at my house and it gets much better reception on UHF and VHF bands. If you go to Antenna Man's review you will get a better idea on what he thinks (which is a good idea) and also see comments from people who bought one.


----------



## Vidop

LenL said:


> I own one and so far it appears to be a very good antenna. I have compared it to the smaller RCA 751 YAGI model which it replaced at my house and it gets much better reception on UHF and VHF bands. If you go to Antenna Man's review you will get a better idea on what he thinks (which is a good idea) and also see comments from people who bought one.


Thanks for that info. I am also using the RCA 751 presently. I think I'll try this XPS1500 model.


----------



## LenL

I have an RCA 751R and also the other RCA 751 model that was supposed to be an "R" version which is the best version but Amazon sent this instead of the "R". It is a very nice small YAGI and performs very well for it's size. At 30 miles from the broadcast towers in NYC it has worked well except for in the summer I have some issues. Not 100/100 on a number of channels all the time. So I am trying the Range Experts Insane Gain. I first had it in my attic and now I am going to try it outside. In the attic it showed much better results than the RCA751.


----------



## ughAudio

LenL said:


> So I am trying the Range Experts Insane Gain. I first had it in my attic and now I am going to try it outside. In the attic it showed much better results than the RCA751.


The UHF only version? Interested to hear how it did outside.


----------



## LenL

It was the Insane Gain 1500 with the added VHF elements. It now sells for $99 I think. Yes I replaced the RCA751R which was doing very well but for a few UHF channels. I have a CM preamp attached as it is about a 40-50 foot run to the TV.

As a result of the great signal capture I pulled the CM3414 powered splitter and installed a passive 3 way spiltter (feeds the TV and 2 DVR+ boxes). The reason I did this was there was too much signal causing a picture breakup on some UHF channels. I possibly could have done this when the RCA751R was in place but did not try it.

So far very happy with the reception results. Looking to see how things go when the weather changes and the leaves are off the trees. I usually have even better reception then.


----------



## LenL

By the way I love the RCA 751R as it is a great performer for such a small Yagi antenna. I highly recommend the 751R if you can find it. It does do a decent job on both VHF and UHF if you are within 30 miles of the broadcasters and have decent line of sight to them.

I also bought the Insane Gain 1500 UHF only model since I have this huge VHF antenna that is sitting in the garage attic to pair it with and that has worked out great! That is my indoor setup for my second floor TV.


----------



## ughAudio

*TIP*
Spinning up bunch of new coax6 and terminations and the spiny braids on the quad got the fingers sore. Found this trick (the softer velcro part hot-glued to the stripper). Brush those braids down-n-round a few times and you're ready for the connector and compression tool.


----------



## Calaveras

The new Channel Master TV Preamp1 just became available again.









TV Antenna PreAmp 1


The Channel Master PreAmp 1 is a professional-grade TV antenna pre-amplifier designed to enhance the performance of any (non-amplified) professional-grade outdoor TV antenna. The PreAmp 1 will boost antenna signal strength, improve signal quality and may increase the number of channels...




www.channelmaster.com





Since I'm only a 4 hour drive from Chandler I hope to have one and test it within a week. It's supposed to have all new filters. Let's see if their "Ultra Low Noise" claim of <2 dB noise figure is true.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

Calaveras said:


> The new Channel Master TV Preamp1 just became available again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TV Antenna PreAmp 1
> 
> 
> The Channel Master PreAmp 1 is a professional-grade TV antenna pre-amplifier designed to enhance the performance of any (non-amplified) professional-grade outdoor TV antenna. The PreAmp 1 will boost antenna signal strength, improve signal quality and may increase the number of channels...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.channelmaster.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since I'm only a 4 hour drive from Chandler I hope to have one and test it within a week. It's supposed to have all new filters. Let's see if their "Ultra Low Noise" claim of <2 dB noise figure is true.


How is the testing going? I'm hoping you can update your chart:


----------



## Calaveras

I received the CM TV Antenna Preamp 1 and ran some tests. When I got to noise figure I was disappointed to get numbers much higher than I anticipated; 3.5 dB on UHF and about 3 dB on high VHF. I went back and ran noise figure on the Kitztech KT-200 and the Televes 560383 to verify I wasn't missing something. Both of those preamps tested as before. 

I didn't run any more tests as it's not a preamp I'll be recommending to anyone. The CM Amplify+ is better.

I did check gain first. It's right around 30 dB when the power inserter switch is set to high and 12-15 db on UHF when set to low. Gain is not reduced on low/high VHF like many preamps. When the power is removed gain goes to -5 dB. 

The high/low gain switch on the power inserter changes the DC voltage sent over the coax. In High position it is 12V and Low position it is 8V. As I expected, the noise figure is even worse in low gain.


----------



## LenL

There are a lot of rank amatures like me (well maybe I am the only one) who would not know if the numbers in one of those columns is better if it is lower or better if it is higher. Would it be possible to include some sort of info at the bottom in the explanations to indicate for each columns where lower is better and higher is better? I know for some of the columns that is not so. Please consider this suggestion.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

Calaveras said:


> I received the CM TV Antenna Preamp 1 and ran some tests. When I got to noise figure I was disappointed to get numbers much higher than I anticipated; 3.5 dB on UHF and about 3 dB on high VHF. I went back and ran noise figure on the Kitztech KT-200 and the Televes 560383 to verify I wasn't missing something. Both of those preamps tested as before.
> 
> I didn't run any more tests as it's not a preamp I'll be recommending to anyone. The CM Amplify+ is better.
> 
> I did check gain first. It's right around 30 dB when the power inserter switch is set to high and 12-15 db on UHF when set to low. Gain is not reduced on low/high VHF like many preamps. When the power is removed gain goes to -5 dB.
> 
> The high/low gain switch on the power inserter changes the DC voltage sent over the coax. In High position it is 12V and Low position it is 8V. As I expected, the noise figure is even worse in low gain.


Well, it wouldn't be the first time Channel Master over hyped the product. Kind of reminds me of the CM1776 pro model antenna...

It doesn't surprise me that their noise figures are much lower than the actual noise figures in real world testing. They know that "low noise" is a buzzword, so they're going to use that in their advertising. And it's too bad because you can buy the aforementioned Kitztech KT-200 or the Televes 560383 for less. I know it can be had for $65 on sale right now but it's regular price is $99.































EDIT:
Amazon is out of their minds. Lowe's has a better price with free shipping:


----------



## Calaveras

Well, I know I said I wasn't going to run anymore tests on the 7779-HDU but I did anyway. 

So here's a bunch of analyzer displays with brief comments for each.

Gain-Low VHF + the FM filter, Yellow line is high gain, magenta line is low gain and cyan line is no power applied










Gain-High VHF (See above for Trace color key)










Gain-UHF (See above for Trace color key)










Noise Figure Low VHF - I did a lot of experiments to make sure I got the lowest reading since anything imperfect makes NF go up.










Noise Figure High VHF










Noise Figure UHF - High Gain










Noise Figure UHF - Low Gain. I only ran low gain on UHF. I don't think it would have been much different on VHF.










3rd Order Intercept Point UHF - High Gain (Anything above +30 is pretty good)









3rd Order Intercept Point UHF - Low Gain (drops off a lot) Since gain is the same everywhere, I didn't run IP3 on VHF.










Return Loss Input VHF (All test were run with high gain. I spot checked low gain and although the curves were different, all stayed >10 dB. Anything >10 dB is acceptable. Return Loss should be very low for the FM filter bandpass and it is.










Return Loss Output VHF










Return Loss Input UHF










Return Loss Output UHF


----------



## Calaveras

LenL said:


> There are a lot of rank amatures like me (well maybe I am the only one) who would not know if the numbers in one of those columns is better if it is lower or better if it is higher. Would it be possible to include some sort of info at the bottom in the explanations to indicate for each columns where lower is better and higher is better? I know for some of the columns that is not so. Please consider this suggestion.


The Notes at the bottom explain what each column is. There's not much more to say. The whole point of the table is SFDR (last column). Higher is better but there are tradeoffs to that. The only measurements are Noise Figure, Gain & IP3. Generally lower Noise Figure is thought to be better. Higher/lower gain can each be better depending on your situation. Higher IP3 is usually better. The other columns are intermediate calculations showing how you get from the measured NF, Gain & IP3 to SFDR.


----------



## Calaveras

ChiwaukeeOTA said:


> Well, it wouldn't be the first time Channel Master over hyped the product. Kind of reminds me of the CM1776 pro model antenna...
> 
> It doesn't surprise me that their noise figures are much lower than the actual noise figures in real world testing. They know that "low noise" is a buzzword, so they're going to use that in their advertising. And it's too bad because you can buy the aforementioned Kitztech KT-200 or the Televes 560383 for less. I know it can be had for $65 on sale right now but it's regular price is $99.


It's not clear to me what is the purpose of this preamp. 30dB gain on UHF is okay but on high VHF it is too high and on low VHF it is insane. The only thing that seems to be good about it is the nice filtering on UHF.


----------



## ughAudio

Calaveras said:


> The high/low gain switch on the power inserter changes the DC voltage sent over the coax. In High position it is 12V and Low position it is 8V. As I expected, the noise figure is even worse in low gain.


"_As I expected_" AND as you predicted some posts before. Thank you!



Calaveras said:


> Well, I know I said I wasn't going to run anymore tests on the 7779-HDU but I did anyway.


Thank you. Was going to try it out but, even with the $65/free shipping and guarantee, would have cost a bunch for the return ship. Appreciate your diligence and attention to the number/details *Calaveras*.


----------



## ughAudio

ChiwaukeeOTA said:


> https://www.avsforum.com/attachments/inbound2224057014805623338-jpg.3327209/


Yowwsa! $89?

I've posted about recent price increases before on this forum.

Lowes with free ship was priced like SolidSignal last year for the single-input/###383 version:


----------



## TelevesTech

ughAudio said:


> Yowwsa! $89?
> 
> I've posted about recent price increases before on this forum.
> 
> Lowes with free ship was priced like SolidSignal last year for the single-input/###383 version:
> 
> View attachment 3327411


The 560383 is $69.95 currently.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

ughAudio said:


> Yowwsa! $89?
> 
> I've posted about recent price increases before on this forum.
> 
> Lowes with free ship was priced like SolidSignal last year for the single-input/###383 version:
> 
> View attachment 3327411


Well, damn.
I looked at Amazon first. ASSuming that would be the best pricing. My bad. I will amend that post.


----------



## LenL

So I had something strange happen Sunday. My local CBS RF36 2.1 was breaking up reception during the NY Jets game. I'm using an Insane Gain xps1500 UHF/VHF antenna feeding from the roof into the basement and up to my first floor TV. It feeds a powered The PCT-MA2 passive return RF amplifier with 15db of gain which I then split with a splitter to the TV and DVR. So I thought maybe it is a problem with 5G interference? So I add in my Channel Master 5g filter which I bought but it never really did anything to help in the past and like before I did nothing to help. So I then thought I would remove the RF amplifier and not amplify the signal and that did not help. The signal strength and quality as measured by my DVR+ would normally be 100/100 but was pretty much 60/0 in all the permutations I tried.

There were no issues on other broadcast channels.

Now here is the part that is really perplexing and has me stumped. I have a CM4228 antenna in the attic that feeds an Amazon Recast. It is about 20- 30 fee from the outside antenna and about the same height. No amps in the feed. The recast feeds over the network the same TV on the first floor and CBS RF36 was coming in with NO issues. Solid reception.

So how is it possible an antenna in the attic can out perform and outside antenna for this particular channel? Any ideas as to what could be going on? I don't have any test equipment so at this point I guess it will remain a mystery. Since rf36 is close to the spectrum that was sold off it made sense it was interference from cell towers etc..


----------



## Primestar31

LenL said:


> So how is it possible an antenna in the attic can out perform and outside antenna for this particular channel? Any ideas as to what could be going on?


Temporary Tropo propagation, which comes and goes fairly quickly. It can affect close station by making one or more nearly impossible to receive, BUT, if you run a new channel scan, you may pick up stations 100+ miles away. The antenna on the roof likely normally has a better signal, and was affected more than the antenna in the attic with lesser reception due to being inside.

Select your region in the dropdown list upper left, and then as you click on the map, it advances per UTC time. It'll give you a prediction of how strong Tropo is in your area at any particular time: https://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo.html


----------



## nathill

That is a FASCINATING site. *Thanks so much* *Primestar 31*. I noticed some odd stuff a few days ago, and it showed Bloomington, IN as being "strong" which I guess would explain the odd behavior.


----------



## wgerman

LenL said:


> I own one and so far it appears to be a very good antenna. I have compared it to the smaller RCA 751 YAGI model which it replaced at my house and it gets much better reception on UHF and VHF bands. If you go to Antenna Man's review you will get a better idea on what he thinks (which is a good idea) and also see comments from people who bought one.


Can this be used in the attic?


----------



## Primestar31

wgerman said:


> Can this be used in the attic?


Sure, if you can fit it in there, and you don't have a metal roof or metallic insulation. However, any antenna works much better outside.


----------



## LenL

wgerman said:


> Can this be used in the attic?


In addition to what Primestar31 said. If you are within 30 miles of the broadcasters and get good signals without trees,mountains and other obstacles etc. in the way, this antenna may very well work in the attic for you.


----------



## avs.phil

Also should work fine in an attic if you don't have a row of nearby neighbors' roofs in the way. Best is just try it, and put it as high as possible inside the attic (not at the first easy spot that you see). Away from metal/HVAC boxes, etc.


----------



## wgerman

Thank you for the replies, I in the Central Texas area around Killeen,Tx. the furthest signal I am trying to pull in is from Austin 52 miles away. Using the Clear Stream 2 Max in the attic now and was looking for a bit more oomph, most of my signals is coming from 30 miles away north of Temple. Not an Antenna expert and wifey does not want an antenna attached to the house. So I figured and outside antenna in the attic should do it. Checked out Antenna man's Youtube reviews and was researching. May just get a Clear Stream 4 max and call it a day.

Again, thank you for replies.


----------



## wgerman

Called Antenna Direct and they suggested the DB8E as a true upgrade from the Clear Stream. Great customer service by the way. 

Are the DB8E and Range Xperts Long Range Outdoor antenna in the same segment?


----------



## jkeldo

wgerman said:


> Called Antenna Direct and they suggested the DB8E as a true upgrade from the Clear Stream. Great customer service by the way.
> 
> Are the DB8E and Range Xperts Long Range Outdoor antenna in the same segment?


The DB8E is a large antenna so be sure you have the room in the attic. I have an older Clearstream 4 and it works well but that has a smaller beamwidth so depending on where the signals are, that might not work. I've never used the DB8 but do have a DB4 which can receive signals around 60 miles for a station in the red/orange category.


----------



## Primestar31

wgerman said:


> Called Antenna Direct and they suggested the DB8E as a true upgrade from the Clear Stream. Great customer service by the way.
> 
> Are the DB8E and Range Xperts Long Range Outdoor antenna in the same segment?


Unless you have a regular door into your attic, you aren't going to get the DB8E in there. It won't go through a hatch.


----------



## avs.phil

Some subassemblies/sections first and the final assembly in the attic.
+ early morning when it's not too hot in the attic


----------



## wgerman

avs.phil said:


> Some subassemblies/sections first and the final assembly in the attic.
> + early morning when it's not too hot in the attic


That's what I was thinking, thanks.


----------



## LenL

Question. If you house is already wired for cable for TV and Internet and using coax cable that connects from the outside to your modem and before the modem is split with both a feed to the TV and another to the modem can you add an antenna feed into the coax outside with a combiner and feed to the modem like before and then split the combined cable/antenna feed to the TV? Or does that just not work?


----------



## Primestar31

LenL said:


> Question. If you house is already wired for cable for TV and Internet and using coax cable that connects from the outside to your modem and before the modem is split with both a feed to the TV and another to the modem can you add an antenna feed into the coax outside with a combiner and feed to the modem like before and then split the combined cable/antenna feed to the TV? Or does that just not work?


You can't do that, as cable tv and OTA antenna tv share some of the same channel frequencies. So, they fight each other.


----------



## LenL

I was thinking that might be the case but then I thought if the cable channels were scrambled including all of the OTA channels (as is the case for me) I thought it might work.


----------



## cpalmer2k

Just curious if anyone here has any experience with the Antennas Direct ClearStream 5 VHF Only antenna? I'm a situation where I have three VHF stations I'm trying to pick up and being able to use something like that would fit much better as opposed to a long YAGI on my mast with what I already have going.


----------



## Primestar31

cpalmer2k said:


> Just curious if anyone here has any experience with the Antennas Direct ClearStream 5 VHF Only antenna? I'm a situation where I have three VHF stations I'm trying to pick up and being able to use something like that would fit much better as opposed to a long YAGI on my mast with what I already have going.


Though I myself have never used one, I've read that it only has about 5dB of gain on VHF high. That's NOT very much at all. I'd have to see your Rabbitears reception report in order to make an educated guess on whether it's worth even trying for you. RabbitEars.Info


----------



## tylerSC

cpalmer2k said:


> Just curious if anyone here has any experience with the Antennas Direct ClearStream 5 VHF Only antenna? I'm a situation where I have three VHF stations I'm trying to pick up and being able to use something like that would fit much better as opposed to a long YAGI on my mast with what I already have going.


No experience so I would only guess that it might receive WSPA and SCETV as they have good VHF signals, and SCETV is not yet full power on their new tower. WLOS may be problematic but who knows.
Also the Channel Master 4228 8bay antenna can also receive High VHF in strong signal areas, despite being optimized for UHF. It can receive the low power WSOC translator at my location in Spartanburg, which is long distance. But they seem to have a good signal and transmission pattern for a low power signal.


----------



## LenL

I have a question on True Direction versus Magnetic direction. I was trying to fine tune my antenna orientation so I went to RabbitEars and and the FCC database plugged in my address and see in the chart that shows the stations and their direction from my house. WCBS shows a true direction of 106. The magnetic direction is 118. Well when I look at the map showing the line for the 106 from my house to the broadcast tower it is no where close to the magnetic direction of 118 my compass is showing me. If I use my compass I would move my antenna in a different orientation. What am I missing? I may have asked this question long before and forgot the explanation.

I think I understand the difference between True and magnetic (that the numbers would be different) but should they be so far apart in terms of actual antenna orientation?


----------



## Primestar31

LenL said:


> I have a question on True Direction versus Magnetic direction. I was trying to fine tune my antenna orientation so I went to RabbitEars and and the FCC database plugged in my address and see in the chart that shows the stations and their direction from my house. WCBS shows a true direction of 106. The magnetic direction is 118. Well when I look at the map showing the line for the 106 from my house to the broadcast tower it is no where close to the magnetic direction of 118 my compass is showing me. If I use my compass I would move my antenna in a different orientation. What am I missing? I may have asked this question long before and forgot the explanation.
> 
> I think I understand the difference between True and magnetic (that the numbers would be different) but should they be so far apart in terms of actual antenna orientation?


Two things:

1: Are you holding your compass close to the METAL antenna mast pipe? If so, it'll affect the magnetic needle.

2: 106 degrees true, and 118 = 12 degrees magnetic deviation in your area. That's due to your local areas magnetic field that affects your compass. Put (stand up) a leveled metal pipe in your yard. Look on the web for your exact SOLAR NOON ESRL Global Monitoring Laboratory - Global Radiation and Aerosols . On a sunny day, at that exact time and second, the angle of the shadow that pipe casts on the ground will point EXACTLY at True NORTH and SOUTH

Regardless of all that, pointing your antenna DIRECTLY at the tower is NOT always the strongest signal!


----------



## LenL

My compass reading is not anywhere near where the antenna is. I took the reading on the ground and the antenna is on the roof.

I understand why the magnetic and true north are different. That is not my question. My question is should not the reading for true north and magnetic north give me the same direction for pointing my antenna? They are very different. If that is the case then why provide both numbers in the (Trips and TV Fool) database since one number is bogus? 

Has anyone else had this issue besides me? I think I know how to read a compass but maybe I am crazy?


----------



## jkeldo

LenL said:


> My compass reading is not anywhere near where the antenna is. I took the reading on the ground and the antenna is on the roof.
> 
> I understand why the magnetic and true north are different. That is not my question. My question is should not the reading for true north and magnetic north give me the same direction for pointing my antenna? They are very different. If that is the case then why provide both numbers in the (Trips and TV Fool) database since one number is bogus?
> 
> Has anyone else had this issue besides me? I think I know how to read a compass but maybe I am crazy?


What type of compass are you using? I have used the one on my iPhone and it seems fairly accurate based on my RabbitEars reports.


----------



## LenL

I am using a Lensatic manual (not smartphone) handheld compass. I do have a compass app in my smartphone but I am not sure I trust it. You have to move the phone in various ways to have it get itself ready to give a reading and I question the whole process and accuracy.


----------



## jkeldo

LenL said:


> I am using a Lensatic manual (not smartphone) handheld compass.


I don't have that so no help there. See if you can borrow a smartphone and see what results you get if possible.


----------



## Primestar31

LenL said:


> My compass reading is not anywhere near where the antenna is. I took the reading on the ground and the antenna is on the roof.
> 
> I understand why the magnetic and true north are different. That is not my question. My question is should not the reading for true north and magnetic north give me the same direction for pointing my antenna? They are very different. If that is the case then why provide both numbers in the (Trips and TV Fool) database since one number is bogus?
> 
> Has anyone else had this issue besides me? I think I know how to read a compass but maybe I am crazy?


@Trip in VA Can you please explain it to him? I guess I'm not getting through. Thanks!


----------



## LenL

Should not magnetic north reading to the broadcaster and the true north reading to the broadcaster point your antenna pretty much in the same direction is my point. It is not at my house. If it does not than why is magnetic north provided? If it is supposed to than I have to figure out what is wrong at my location.

So can someone confirm that both readings are supposed to point your antenna pretty much in the same direction?


----------



## fri1038

So how far off _are _the magnetic and true directions you are worried about? Seven Twelve degrees difference at 30 miles would be about right - depends on location.

But as posted above, those are just for estimating where to point your antenna. The antenna knows best. Aim it where you get the best signal.


----------



## jkeldo

LenL said:


> Should not magnetic north reading to the broadcaster and the true north reading to the broadcaster point your antenna pretty much in the same direction is my point. It is not at my house. If it does not than why is magnetic north provided? If it is supposed to than I have to figure out what is wrong at my location.
> 
> So can someone confirm that both readings are supposed to point your antenna pretty much in the same direction?


My RabbitEars report and TV Fool report both show an 8 degree difference. So the antenna is not going to be aimed that much differently using either one but I know for one weak station that I have, that the Direction (True) reading is the more accurate one. But since I have a lot of trees in the way, the aim could be a few degrees off depending on how the signal is reaching the antenna which is what I believe Primestar was alluding to above. This would be a different issue if you were aiming a DirecTV dish or similar.


----------



## Pete-N2

True north is a fixed point on the globe. Magnetic north is quite different.

Magnetic north is the direction that a compass needle points to as it aligns with the Earth’s magnetic field.

What is interesting is that the magnetic North Pole shifts and changes over time in response to changes in the Earth’s magnetic core. It is not a fixed point.









True north and magnetic north: what's the difference?


In September 2019, for the first time in over 360 years, compasses at Greenwich pointed true north. But what does this mean - and haven't compasses always pointed 'north'?




www.rmg.co.uk




.

Twenty years ago (if I recall correctly) correction in Virginia was 2-3 degrees and NY/CT was 10-12 degrees.

Aviation Sectional maps show the correction.


----------



## LenL

Thanks guys for all of the feedback. As stated before I know the difference between the magnetic north and true north.

It's not just 118 (mag north) versus 106 True north for me. I'm not sure where they got the 118 degrees from but if I go by the FCC Maps that draw a line presumably using 106 true north from my house to the broadcast towers it has my antenna pointing in a direction way different from 118 magnetic north. I would think that whatever formula they are using to come up with the 118 is NOT good. In fact if I look at my compass the magnetic reading I get is about 160 degrees to point my antenna in the same direction as the FCC map (106) and that is how my antenna is actually pointed right now from my house to NYC broadcasters and my reception is great. I will try using my smartphone app to see what that comes up with in terms of mag north etc.

I was just looking to see if I am doing something wrong? Or if others have tried to compare the 2 different numbers at their locations and I am the only one where they don't jive at all?

Update: Using my smartphone compass app I have verified that my antenna is pointed at the broadcast towers at magnetic 160 degrees. It agrees with my old fashioned Lensactic compass. SO I am NOT crazy! I am also not sure the 106 True North in the table is correct.


----------



## jkeldo

LenL said:


> Thanks guys for all of the feedback. As stated before I know the difference between the magnetic north and true north.
> 
> It's not just 118 (mag north) versus 106 True north for me. I'm not sure where they got the 118 degrees from but if I go by the FCC Maps that draw a line presumably using 106 true north from my house to the broadcast towers it has my antenna pointing in a direction way different from 118 magnetic north. I would think that whatever formula they are using to come up with the 118 is NOT good. In fact if I look at my compass the magnetic reading I get is about 160 degrees to point my antenna in the same direction as the FCC map (106) and that is how my antenna is actually pointed right now from my house to NYC broadcasters and my reception is great. I will try using my smartphone app to see what that comes up with in terms of mag north etc.
> 
> I was just looking to see if I am doing something wrong? Or if others have tried to compare the 2 different numbers at their locations and I am the only one where they don't jive at all?
> 
> Update: Using my smartphone compass app I have verified that my antenna is pointed at the broadcast towers at magnetic 160 degrees. It agrees with my old fashioned Lensactic compass. SO I am NOT crazy! I am also not sure the 106 True North in the table is correct.


If the results are the same for the compass and phone, maybe run a new RabbitEars report to make sure it's plotting you correctly for your area and address and not offsetting too much for privacy etc.


----------



## LaserBeamSC

This conversation gives the opportunity to share the TV Towers app (I purchased the FM, AM Towers bundle for a small fee) that I use here in Lubbock and in Myrtle Beach, SC. The compass is right on the money and will come handy when Smartkom is released and my MATV system is installed which will eliminate the rotor in that system. Of course the rotor will be used with one separate antenna for DXing.


----------



## cpalmer2k

LaserBeamSC said:


> This conversation gives the opportunity to share the TV Towers app (I purchased the FM, AM Towers bundle for a small fee) that I use here in Lubbock and in Myrtle Beach, SC. The compass is right on the money and will come handy when Smartkom is released and my MATV system is installed which will eliminate the rotor in that system. Of course the rotor will be used with one separate antenna for DXing.
> View attachment 3343985


The only negative thing with that app is at least in my market a lot of the data has never been updated to reflect the repack. I use the Winegard antenna app instead as it seems more up to date. I do use their FM and AM radio apps though.


----------



## LaserBeamSC

cpalmer2k said:


> The only negative thing with that app is at least in my market a lot of the data has never been updated to reflect the repack. I use the Winegard antenna app instead as it seems more up to date. I do use their FM and AM radio apps though.


You are right and really should have mentioned that on my post because some would really depend on that information. I communicated with the developer several months ago and he acknowledged the need for repack info update and said he was going to work on it. The compass map feature for all towers is only set to around 60 miles and I needed it for 100 plus but found when clicking on a particular station, the individual compass is very accurate and helpful. I will have to try the Winegard app soon.


----------



## cpalmer2k

LaserBeamSC said:


> You are right and really should have mentioned that on my post because some would really depend on that information. I communicated with the developer several months ago and he acknowledged the need for repack info update and said he was going to work on it. The compass map feature for all towers is only set to around 60 miles and I needed it for 100 plus but found when clicking on a particular station, the individual compass is very accurate and helpful. I will have to try the Winegard app soon.


The Winegard app has the same mileage limitation. One trick I found is to use Rabbitears to find out if any radio stations are on the same tower as the TV station you’re aiming for. In my case I was trying to tweak an ABC Translator that isn’t in the apps. Rabbitears identified a radio station located on the same tower so I did as you suggested and used the call letters in the FM Towers app to aim for the radio station to get the translator I needed.


----------



## Primestar31

I use an app called "DTV ANTENNAS", which works well.

However, what works BEST (for me anyway), is looking up the Wikipedia listing for my stations, for instance WNEM. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WNEM-TV

Once you are on the Wiki, look down the right side for "Transmitter coordinates". Click on that hyperlink. On the next page, scroll down to "Google Maps" and click on the "Satellite" hyperlink in the middle. It'll bring up the exact map location site for the transmitter antenna tower. You now RIGHT-click on the base of that antenna tower, and choose "Measure distance".

Now, ZOOM out on the map using the - minus sign in the lower right corner, until you can see the area where your house and antenna is located. Then ZOOM down on your house with the + plus sign in the lower right corner. Then LEFT-click on your antenna, and a DIRECT sight line to the transmitter tower will appear with the "as the crow flies" mileage on it. You can look at where that line comes into your neighborhood, etc. Does it go across my neighbors house at a certain point, does it line up with my roofs chimney, etc. Now, you have a sight-line of *exactly* where to aim your antenna, and you DON'T need a compass! Just aim your antenna by sight as close as you feel you are pointing along that map line, and tweak slightly from there if needed. Don't forget that a movement as tiny as the width of a pencil, can be MANY miles out the further out you are aiming. So, in other words, you might only need to just loosen and slightly TAP the antenna a bit to tweak it as exact as you can get it for signal/quality/symbol, etc.

I love doing it by this method, and have used it for years. Of course, depending on trees and whatever that may be blocking DIRECT aim at the tower, you may have to aim slightly OFF that line for best signal, with the hopes of catching a signal diffraction that works well for you.


----------



## LaserBeamSC

cpalmer2k said:


> The Winegard app has the same mileage limitation. One trick I found is to use Rabbitears to find out if any radio stations are on the same tower as the TV station you’re aiming for. In my case I was trying to tweak an ABC Translator that isn’t in the apps. Rabbitears identified a radio station located on the same tower so I did as you suggested and used the call letters in the FM Towers app to aim for the radio station to get the translator I needed.


Btw, the TV Towers app released an update just today and the several DMA’s I’m interested in were all updated to post repack RF’s. The RDU market even had the 3.0 lighthouse RF and all the stations on it. While this could have been done before, I do not think it was. Very cool update and app.


----------



## LaserBeamSC

Primestar31 said:


> I use an app called "DTV ANTENNAS", which works well.
> 
> However, what works BEST (for me anyway), is looking up the Wikipedia listing for my stations, for instance WNEM. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WNEM-TV
> 
> Once you are on the Wiki, look down the right side for "Transmitter coordinates". Click on that hyperlink. On the next page, scroll down to "Google Maps" and click on the "Satellite" hyperlink in the middle. It'll bring up the exact map location site for the transmitter antenna tower. You now RIGHT-click on the base of that antenna tower, and choose "Measure distance".
> 
> Now, ZOOM out on the map using the - minus sign in the lower right corner, until you can see the area where your house and antenna is located. Then ZOOM down on your house with the + plus sign in the lower right corner. Then LEFT-click on your antenna, and a DIRECT sight line to the transmitter tower will appear with the "as the crow flies" mileage on it. You can look at where that line comes into your neighborhood, etc. Does it go across my neighbors house at a certain point, does it line up with my roofs chimney, etc. Now, you have a sight-line of *exactly* where to aim your antenna, and you DON'T need a compass! Just aim your antenna by sight as close as you feel you are pointing along that map line, and tweak slightly from there if needed. Don't forget that a movement as tiny as the width of a pencil, can be MANY miles out the further out you are aiming. So, in other words, you might only need to just loosen and slightly TAP the antenna a bit to tweak it as exact as you can get it for signal/quality/symbol, etc.
> 
> I love doing it by this method, and have used it for years. Of course, depending on trees and whatever that may be blocking DIRECT aim at the tower, you may have to aim slightly OFF that line for best signal, with the hopes of catching a signal diffraction that works well for you.


At first, it seemed like too much clicking but it tells precisely what’s needed to point and see the LOS. The DTV Antennas app is good as well but needs the repack update for folks that really don’t know the updated RF’s. Thanks Star!


----------



## LenL

Primestar31,

The Wiki listing is really nice and the google map is great however the results are the same as the much simpler to use FCC site: DTV Reception Maps


----------



## jkeldo

LenL said:


> Primestar31,
> 
> The Wiki listing is really nice and the google map is great however the results are the same as the much simpler to use FCC site: DTV Reception Maps


But the FCC one doesn't have the satellite view which is great when trying to aim using one's house or other structures. In my case, it also doesn't show all available stations so it is incomplete.


----------



## Primestar31

jkeldo said:


> But the FCC one doesn't have the satellite view which is great when trying to aim using one's house or other structures. In my case, it also doesn't show all available stations so it is incomplete.


I agree. I don't bother with the FCC one, since it doesn't have satellite view. IF it did, it would be a lot less steps. But then again, you only have to do this for your stations when putting up an antenna. You can continue to stretch that sight-line back and forth from your various towers, to your antenna. You won't get accurate mileage beyond the first one, BUT, we are only interested in where the sight-line lays for accurate pointing.


----------



## jkeldo

Primestar31 said:


> I agree. I don't bother with the FCC one, since it doesn't have satellite view. IF it did, it would be a lot less steps. But then again, you only have to do this for your stations when putting up an antenna. You can continue to stretch that sight-line back and forth from your various towers, to your antenna. You won't get accurate mileage beyond the first one, BUT, we are only interested in where the sight-line lays for accurate pointing.


Thanks for sharing the procedure you detailed above. It helps if you need to pinpoint the aim. Since I generally knew the direction of the weak stations on my list, I was able to figure it out years ago using the RabbitEars and/or TVFool reports and also using the compass on the phone. However, your procedure will help me tweak my one antenna aimed at 60 mile stations which I think is a bit off.


----------



## SBRUSKI

Finishing up a new bedroom wall tv. Quad shielded cable and cat6 behind the monitor. 15 foot run to antenna.
When I connected the set to my in attic antenna, I only received 33 channels.
(My main tv receives 92 channels from antenna) 
Tried cleaning contacts and adding a booster. 38 channels..

Tracked it down to the 300 ohm to 75 ohm balun attached to the antenna.
Tried another old balun raised it to 77 channels. Getting better....
Tossed out the bad balun tested. Didn't know a balun made such a difference.
Now, I'm shopping for a couple high quality low loss baluns to upgrade.
Any suggestions on baluns?


----------



## Primestar31

SBRUSKI said:


> Finishing up a new bedroom wall tv. Quad shielded cable and cat6 behind the monitor. 15 foot run to antenna.
> When I connected the set to my in attic antenna, I only received 33 channels.
> (My main tv receives 92 channels from antenna)
> Tried cleaning contacts and adding a booster. 38 channels..
> 
> Tracked it down to the 300 ohm to 75 ohm balun attached to the antenna.
> Tried another old balun raised it to 77 channels. Getting better....
> Tossed out the bad balun tested. Didn't know a balun made such a difference.
> Now, I'm shopping for a couple high quality low loss baluns to upgrade.
> Any suggestions on baluns?


I switched to this balun, and it's the best of them all at the moment. Even better if you cut the lead wires shorter by 1/2. What sort of splitter are you using? Type and brand?: Outdoor Balun/Matching Transformer Deluxe


----------



## SBRUSKI

Primestar31 said:


> I switched to this balun, and it's the best of them all at the moment. Even better if you cut the lead wires shorter by 1/2. What sort of splitter are you using? Type and brand?: Outdoor Balun/Matching Transformer Deluxe


No splitter on this new run. straight wire to the tv from the Ant balun. A no brand balun that came with an old TV.

Other tv run is amped.
Ant_ Clearstream Juice booster(partA)_
_grounded PerfectVision passthru splitter1_ Clearstream Juice(partB)__TV
splitter2_DC block _TV

Ordered 2 CM baluns.
Mo' channels please.......


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

SBRUSKI said:


> No splitter on this new run. straight wire to the tv from the Ant balun. A no brand balun that came with an old TV.
> 
> Other tv run is amped.
> Ant_ Clearstream Juice booster(partA)_
> _grounded PerfectVision passthru splitter1_ Clearstream Juice(partB)__TV
> splitter2_DC block _TV
> 
> Ordered 2 CM baluns.
> Mo' channels please.......


In my testing the CM3203 was probably the best balun.

It's my belief that shortening the leads will improve your signal but I did not test that as I was testing stock baluns.


----------



## SBRUSKI

ChiwaukeeOTA said:


> In my testing the CM3203 was probably the best balun.
> 
> It's my belief that shortening the leads will improve your signal but I did not test that as I was testing stock baluns.
> 
> View attachment 3349603


I love this website.......
Thank you for your research.


----------



## jimbobub1

I have a rigol dsa 815 SA. It has a 50 and 75 ohm selectable input and output. I use the 50 ohm to 75 ohm 5.7 db pads as recommended by rigol. I measured the 75 to 300 ohm baluns on both 50 ohm input output and on 75 as well. The 75 ohm gave a much smoother trace.


----------



## Calaveras

jimbobub1 said:


> I have a rigol dsa 815 SA. It has a 50 and 75 ohm selectable input and output. I use the 50 ohm to 75 ohm 5.7 db pads as recommended by rigol. I measured the 75 to 300 ohm baluns on both 50 ohm input output and on 75 as well. The 75 ohm gave a much smoother trace.


The DSA815 doesn't actually have a 75 ohm input. When switched to 75 ohms it assumes you're using the 5.7 dB impedance matching pad and adds that to the measured value. If you're using two pads, one on the input and one on the tracking generator output, the impedance mis-match is reduced producing a smoother curve. The tracking generator has the greatest impedance variation. 

I use the TPX-75-4 transformer instead of the 5.7 dB pad and add 6-10 dB attenuators to smooth out the curve on loss or gain measurements. The TPX-75-4 has 0.3 to 0.4 dB loss through UHF.


----------



## jimbobub1

Calaveras said:


> The DSA815 doesn't actually have a 75 ohm input. When switched to 75 ohms it assumes you're using the 5.7 dB impedance matching pad and adds that to the measured value. If you're using two pads, one on the input and one on the tracking generator output, the impedance mis-match is reduced producing a smoother curve. The tracking generator has the greatest impedance variation.
> 
> I use the TPX-75-4 transformer instead of the 5.7 dB pad and add 6-10 dB attenuators to smooth out the curve on loss or gain measurements. The TPX-75-4 has 0.3 to 0.4 dB loss through UHF.


Is the driven element in a Televes datboss lr uhf antenna a bowtie? I had an extra driven element around and removed the built in amp which was not working well. I installed a low loss 75 to 300 ohm balun to it and it works much better. It now works the same as my 91xg. I'm wondering if I can squeeze a few more db out of it.


----------



## Calaveras

jimbobub1 said:


> Is the driven element in a Televes datboss lr uhf antenna a bowtie? I had an extra driven element around and removed the built in amp which was not working well. I installed a low loss 75 to 300 ohm balun to it and it works much better. It now works the same as my 91xg. I'm wondering if I can squeeze a few more db out of it.


A few more dB? Usually that means 3 and you'd have to double the size of the antenna to get that so the answer is no. That applies to any antenna.


----------



## jimbobub1

Will an atsc 1 tv signal meter measure the signal level of an atsc 3 signal? My guess is that such a meter will not read all attributes of an atsc 3 signal but I'm hoping that it would at least be able to display the signal level and hopefully snr as well. The atsc 3 meters are so expensive I don't mind spending much less on a atsc 1 meter that has less functions with atsc 3 but would at least provide some future proofing.


----------



## Primestar31

jimbobub1 said:


> Will an atsc 1 tv signal meter measure the signal level of an atsc 3 signal? My guess is that such a meter will not read all attributes of an atsc 3 signal but I'm hoping that it would at least be able to display the signal level and hopefully snr as well. The atsc 3 meters are so expensive I don't mind spending much less on a atsc 1 meter that has less functions with atsc 3 but would at least provide some future proofing.


No, it won't be able to demodulate it. It MAY be able to measure the raw rf level though. I know for a fact an NTSC meter can read an ATSC1 signal, though it's about 9dB low.


----------



## jamesm113

rabbit73 said:


> Thank you for the tip about the Spektrum SA software for the RTL-SDR dongle. It does indeed allow the dongle to cover a much wider span. The lettering on the display is a little too small for my old eyes on my 15" laptop and I'm not too crazy about the notch in the trace every 2 MHz.





tustinfarm said:


> I agree, the 2 MHz notches in the Spektrum SA software are a big drawback, especially when you're trying to detect multipath effects in an ATSC channel.


In case this is helpful, Spektrum has a "crop percent" setting that smooths out the 2 MHz notches. Attached are two high VHF scans with 0% crop percent and 70% crop percent


----------



## jamesm113

rabbit73 said:


> Also, you have to set the gain correctly so that a weak signal will show above the noise floor. Increase the gain until the noise floor starts to rise and the weak signal stops increasing.


I've been using the RTL SDR for quite some time, but I just discovered the gain functionality. Why is it beneficial to set the gain above 0dB? Would the tuner see the signals with the same gain? Or does increasing the gain until the NF starts to increase the same thing a television tuner does?

Also, RE: font size in spektrum, you can modify the spektrum.java and spektrum.pde files in the source folder.
Anywhere you see createFont("ARIAL", 10), change the 10 to 14 or 16, or whatever font size is desired. Then relaunch and hopefully you will see better sizes

For the Ear to Ear Oak RTL-SDR scanner install issues, it looks like one of the dependencies (pyrtlsdr) has moved files around and Ear To Ear Oak scanner software hasn't been updated since 2018 so it's looking for them in the wrong folder. I used pip (python's package manager) to install an older version of pyrtlsdr that does not have that issue (pyrtsdr v0.2.8).
To do this (assuming python is in c:\Python27\python.exe):
1. Uninstall the current version of pyrtlsdr c:\Python27\python.exe -m pip uninstall pyrtlsdr
2. Install v 0.2.8 of pyrtlsdr: c:\Python27\python.exe -m pip install pyrtlsdr==0.2.8

The installer should handle all the Microsoft Visual C/C++ runtime dependencies automatically. But in the future, if you are missing MSVCR / MSVCP DLLs, you need the Microsoft Visual C/C++ Redistributables:









Latest supported Visual C++ Redistributable downloads


This article lists the download links for the latest versions of Visual C++ Redistributable packages.



learn.microsoft.com





The version number (10.0, 11.0, 12,0, shown as 100, 110, 120 in the DLL files) correlates to the version of Microsoft Visual Studio used to compile the application (ie, Visual Studio 2008 == 90/9.0, Visual Studio 2010 == 100/10.0, and so on). I believe after Visual Studio 2015 / 140 / 14.0, the redistributables starting becoming backwards compatible.


----------



## jamesm113

rabbit73 said:


> The signal strength looks adequate and the signal quality is well above the 50% minimum, so the symbol quality must drop when there is a problem.
> 
> That's very similar to what happens to my channel 11 when the tree in front of the antenna is wet. I consider it multipath.
> 
> Symbol quality starts out at 100% and then drops, goes up to 100% at 00:15, then drops again.
> 
> HDHomeRun Config GUI 2020-10-10 20-35-42.mp4
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/4bek1ibg76rfp3e/HDHomeRun Config GUI 2020-10-10 20-35-42.mp4?dl=1


Since you already have the HDHomeRun, you should check out the Signals GH iOS app: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/signal-gh/id289580769

It charts signal quality over time, which I've found to be much more helpful than the HDHomeRun Config GUI. Attached are some samples of drop outs I've experienced/captured with the Signals GH app.

PS, Sorry for spamming with replies, been reading through this thread, lots of good info in here.


----------



## rabbit73

*Using the RTL-SDR V3 Dongle with the Scanner Software*



jamesm113 said:


> I've been using the RTL SDR for quite some time, but I just discovered the gain functionality. Why is it beneficial to set the gain above 0dB? Would the tuner see the signals with the same gain? Or does increasing the gain until the NF starts to increase the same thing a television tuner does?


The gain of the dongle must be set correctly to match the strength of the signal because the dynamic range of the dongle is limited to about 50dB because it only has an 8bit ADC. The dynamic range of the dongle must make room for the SNR of the signal plus the pilot carrier.

*ADC Dynamic Range of SDRs*
Dynamic Range of ADC (analog-to-digital converter)
Chips Based on the Number of Bits
8 bit ADC: 50 dB (RTL-SDR.COM V3 dongle)
12 bit ADC: 72 dB (SDRplay RSP1A and Airspy R2)










The strength of the signal will be different if you add a preamp, so you must reduce the gain of the dongle to compensate for the preamp gain:



















Gain set too low, correctly, and too high:


----------



## rabbit73

With some versions of the software, the range level can be set to auto ON or auto OFF.



















Even if the Auto Range Level is ON, you still must set the dongle gain correctly.

August 11, 2015
RTLSDR Scanner Standalone Application Released
RTLSDR Scanner Standalone Application Released

GitHub RTLSDR-Scanner INFO (not all links work)
GitHub - EarToEarOak/RTLSDR-Scanner: A cross platform Python frequency scanning GUI for the OsmoSDR rtl-sdr library

Old Manual Download
https://github.com/EarToEarOak/RTLSDR-Scanner/blob/master/doc/Manual.pdf?raw=true

Scanner Software versions
Releases · EarToEarOak/RTLSDR-Scanner

I have been using v1.3.0 64bit
Click on Assets.

*Tips for Setting Up an RTL-SDR Dongle as a Spectrum Analyzer*
Tutorial by Pete Higgins
OTA Signal Analyzers, Meters, Aimers, Bench Gear...

Software Contents:
You have to assemble this folder. It took me 3 attempts to insert all of the separate dependencies before I could get it to work.

It's more complicated than using SDR# software, but it scans a much wider frequency range.









The link to download the RelWithDebInfo is often broken. RelWithDebInfo is needed because it contains some software to copy into the Scanner Folder when you first assemble it. Here is the link:
http://osmocom.org/attachments/download/2242/RelWithDebInfo.zip

This is what it looks like unzipped:









Contents of rtl-sdr-release Folder opened:









x32 Folder opened:









x64 Folder opened:


----------



## rabbit73

ChiwaukeeOTA uses the comparison feature of the RTL-STR Scanner for his antenna tests. You will find it here in the software:




























*Compare Window*
Allows you to load two different scans and display the difference between them if their frequency bins coincide.
The first plot is shown in blue, the second in green and the difference in red.

If you get this message, like I did, when setting up the RTL-SDR V3 dongle in Windows 10:
*usb open error 12*

It is a driver problem in setting up Zadig.

Three Fixes:

SignalsEverywhere: Windows 10 usb_open_error -12 Fix

https://www.rtl-sdr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1797

Fix for "USB Open error -12" in libusb.dll applications


----------



## ota.dt.man

RE: Antenna Aiming - Attic or Rooftop
Recommended cost-effective portable TV or monitor to use with:
Apex DT502

signal quality & strength meters
Outputs: RF, composite, S-video
Either AC or AC/DC

Or, another cost-effective aiming alternative to an Apex DT502 + port.TV.

Tyler the AntennnaMan mentions the the following ideas beginning at 5:08 minutes:
Portable TVs:

SuperSonic 7"
Milanix 7"
Tyler 7"
Ancable F-type quick release adapter (for above TVs)
Signal meters:

CM-1005
Winegard SensarPro
Televes 593101 H30
Thanks!


----------



## steel guitar guy

Would like some opinions on my next effort to get 2 weak stations more reliably... If you care to have a look at my rabbitears report, you will see WQPX-[virtual64], and WSWB -[virtual38].. These stations have always been the weakest and least reliable, but for a long time, they were much better, 64 was actually solid for an extended period, probably a year or more.. 38 went in and out, but was usually watchable at night... They are much less reliable lately despite my best efforts...
Here's my plan,probably in the spring.. 1- I have a SL 91X knock off.. It has been very strong on the UHF band, and gets every UHF station you see in the report down as far as WSWB, nothing after that.Just depends on which way I point it.. Some stations that seem the weakest on the chart are often at 80-90%...all those low power repeaters on the chart, and there are several, have never once showed up on any scan I have done over the years, although they show higher strength, than some stations I get solidly.
Also have the big Stellar Labs high VHF antenna about I dunno, 2 1/2, maybe 3 feet under the UHF antenna... They are about 25 feet AGL, and I plan on extending them another 7 feet to 32 feet AGL, and thats about all I can go.. Also, plan on moving both antennas about another foot apart,,, also planning on using equal length leads into the preamp.. Right now, I have one thats about 2 feet and another about 4, and plan on using 2 three or perhaps 2 2 foot lenghts... Also going to replace the RCA dual input preamp with a Kitz KS-700, or a the new Televes, that so many are talking about.. not sure yet.. Was also considering putting up the big latest/greatest Televes uhh/high vhf with built in preamp, repack adjusted antenna, but really have doubts in could out gain whats already up there... For a while I had the big Stellar Labs UHF Televes knock off up there, and it was pretty good, but The 91X knock off was clearly the better performer, so I took it down and gave it away... Any thoughts from more knowledgable members would be greatly appreciated, as well as other considerations I may have missed. Please feel free to PM as well... I don't need these stations at all really, but its just knowing they ARE there, and are fleeting and wonky, that annoys me, and I want to "master' them, calm them down, and bring them into submission.. makes no sense, but I am sure many on this forum will understand.. I have NO idea why these weak stations went from acceptable to less than acceptable over the past few months, but they have.. Might be as simple as a bit of corrosion on a coax connection,, [all solid copper quad] 30 feet downlead from the RCA preamp, might have to go 35 feet down after the preamp to accomodate the increased a7 feet in height... anyway, looking for input... thanks as always,,,, bob







RabbitEars.Info


RabbitEars, where you can learn all about local, over-the-air TV channels.




www.rabbitears.info


----------



## ota.dt.man

steel guitar guy said:


> Would like some opinions on my next effort to get 2 weak stations more reliably... If you care to have a look at my rabbitears report, you will see WQPX-[virtual64], and WSWB -[virtual38].. These stations have always been the weakest and least reliable, but for a long time, they were much better, 64 was actually solid for an extended period, probably a year or more.. 38 went in and out, but was usually watchable at night... They are much less reliable lately despite my best efforts...
> Here's my plan,probably in the spring.. 1- I have a SL 91X knock off.. It has been very strong on the UHF band, and gets every UHF station you see in the report down as far as WSWB, nothing after that.Just depends on which way I point it.. Some stations that seem the weakest on the chart are often at 80-90%...all those low power repeaters on the chart, and there are several, have never once showed up on any scan I have done over the years, although they show higher strength, than some stations I get solidly.
> Also have the big Stellar Labs high VHF antenna about I dunno, 2 1/2, maybe 3 feet under the UHF antenna... They are about 25 feet AGL, and I plan on extending them another 7 feet to 32 feet AGL, and thats about all I can go.. Also, plan on moving both antennas about another foot apart,,, also planning on using equal length leads into the preamp.. Right now, I have one thats about 2 feet and another about 4, and plan on using 2 three or perhaps 2 2 foot lenghts... Also going to replace the RCA dual input preamp with a Kitz KS-700, or a the new Televes, that so many are talking about.. not sure yet.. Was also considering putting up the big latest/greatest Televes uhh/high vhf with built in preamp, repack adjusted antenna, but really have doubts in could out gain whats already up there... For a while I had the big Stellar Labs UHF Televes knock off up there, and it was pretty good, but The 91X knock off was clearly the better performer, so I took it down and gave it away... Any thoughts from more knowledgable members would be greatly appreciated, as well as other considerations I may have missed. Please feel free to PM as well... I don't need these stations at all really, but its just knowing they ARE there, and are fleeting and wonky, that annoys me, and I want to "master' them, calm them down, and bring them into submission.. makes no sense, but I am sure many on this forum will understand.. I have NO idea why these weak stations went from acceptable to less than acceptable over the past few months, but they have.. Might be as simple as a bit of corrosion on a coax connection,, [all solid copper quad] 30 feet downlead from the RCA preamp, might have to go 35 feet down after the preamp to accomodate the increased a7 feet in height... anyway, looking for input... thanks as always,,,, bob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RabbitEars.Info
> 
> 
> RabbitEars, where you can learn all about local, over-the-air TV channels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rabbitears.info


Hi Bob,

WQPX 64.1 (rf 33) *-100.54 dBm* Signal Power
WSWB 38.1 (rf 34) *-107.13 dBm* Signal Power
both:

are 61+ miles away
are outside of the station's coverage maps*
have tropo terrain path profiles* showing multiple obstructions (no line of sight)
have_ "bad"_ Signal Power. Per Rabbit Ears,_ ""Bad" means there is likely little or nothing that can be done to bring that signal in."_
*click on the included _map_ & _transmitter distance_ links for each of these stations in your Rabbit Ears report.

Are you sure these stations are worth the effort? (I have no experience with tropo reception.)
Since you're in his area, AntennaManPA may be a good resource. He has a website & is on YouTube.

Related links:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropospheric_propagation
https://3fs.net.au/tropospheric-propagation/
https://dxinfocentre.com/tropo_eur.html


----------



## steel guitar guy

I know, they are weak,, However they are and were there, and as stated, were a lot more reliable at one time, just about 2 months ago. I had them all summer, with the leaves still on the trees. I am at about 1200 feet ASL, and I get those other Scranton stations at up to 90%, and seldom less than about 50% even mid day, except for 38 and 64, which from what I understand both have much lower transmitting towers than the other Scranton station... I was satisfied with what I had from both those stations for a pretty long time, but  something has degraded somewhat, and any small loss at all in my set up would probably make them go from watchable to non watchable.. Just trying to get back the little bit that was lost.. Every other station even those 75 miles distant are strong as ever... Only the 2 weakest are affected,, I am hoping that that added 7 ft of elevation, the new coax, and the newer better quality preamp, will make the small difference needed.. ...


----------



## ota.dt.man

steel guitar guy said:


> ... I was satisfied with what I had from both those stations for a pretty long time, but something has degraded somewhat, and any small loss at all in my set up would probably make them go from watchable to non watchable.. Just trying to get back the little bit that was lost.. Every other station even those 75 miles distant are strong as ever... Only the 2 weakest are affected,, I am hoping that that added 7 ft of elevation, the new coax, and the newer better quality preamp, will make the small difference needed.. ...


Understood, sounds like you've been fortunate for a while. Tropo reception typically has variability, isn't consistently reliable. Your plans may help. Any chance of LTE interference?


----------



## steel guitar guy

ota.dt.man said:


> Understood, sounds like
> 
> 
> ota.dt.man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Understood, sounds like you've been fortunate for a while. Tropo reception typically has variability, isn't consistently reliable. Your plans may help. Any chance of LTE interference?
> 
> 
> 
> 've been fortunate for a while. Tropo reception typically has variability, isn't consistently reliable. Your plans may help. Any chance of LTE interference?
Click to expand...

No broadcast towers for TV/Radio nearby, but a bunch of cell towers all over around here on the hilltops.. Thats why I was thinking the Televes preamp might do a little better than the RCA thats up there now.. Lower SNR, somewhat more gain, and 5G filter... During Tropo I get Philly stations, Allentown, Harrisburg, Altoona, Buffalo, and Rochester, and once got a station in western Ohio- 354 miles west of here. Tropo is not when I see 38 and 64... Until they started dropping out, I got 64 pretty soldily daily at around 40%, with some dropping out mid day on sunny days.. By evening it was solid... 38 was never as good, and always came and went, but it was watchable many evenings after the sun went down... Now it often does not even show up on a rescan, unless I do it at night or early morninghis are... In the town where I live elevation is everything... a mile from my house, with a rotator, and my set up, I could get 120 stations from 5 different markets, because its 400-500 feet higher than where I live,,, Some sections get NO OTA tv.. This area is very rugged terrain, and many people must shoot through little low areas between the big rocky hills...


----------



## ota.dt.man

steel guitar guy said:


> No broadcast towers for TV/Radio nearby, but a bunch of cell towers all over around here on the hilltops.. Thats why I was thinking the Televes preamp might do a little better than the RCA thats up there now.


We recently were having LTE issues solved with the $19 CM-3201: Distance to Nearest Cell Tower & LTE Filters? This thread also discuses preamps w/ LTE filters.


----------



## steel guitar guy

ota.dt.man said:


> We recently were having LTE issues solved with the $19 CM-3201: Distance to Nearest Cell Tower & LTE Filters? This thread also discuses preamps w/ LTE filters.


 Yeah, think I have 2 maybe 3 cell towers within maybe 2 miles or so... However, I don't want to take my setup down just to install a filter.. when it comes down, it goes back up higher, with a better preamp with filter in it,, new solid copper core coax, a widening of the space between the UHF/VHF antennas, and better, longer, guy wires.. At this point the plan is to deal with it until spring, while gathering the stuff I don't have, like the pre amp, and coax sections... No thoughts on the Televes LR Mix??.. I was seriously considering it at one point, because it is optimized for the UHF frequencies now in use, not for the pre repack frequencies.. However, from what I gather, the Televes antenna still won't be able to match the gain of what I already have.. Not sure i want to blow $200 and have it not help....


----------



## nathill

I believe that the Kiztech KS-700 will help you quite a bit. It helped me when I replaced my RCA. I tend think that it may be a really hard job to get those last two. It's such a crap shoot with those "digital cliff" stations. Good luck!


----------



## ota.dt.man

steel guitar guy said:


> Yeah, think I have 2 maybe 3 cell towers within maybe 2 miles or so... However, I don't want to take my setup down just to install a filter.. when it comes down, it goes back up higher, with a better preamp with filter in it,, new solid copper core coax, a widening of the space between the UHF/VHF antennas, and better, longer, guy wires.. At this point the plan is to deal with it until spring, while gathering the stuff I don't have, like the pre amp, and coax sections...


Makes sense.


steel guitar guy said:


> No thoughts on the Televes LR Mix??.. I was seriously considering it at one point, because it is optimized for the UHF frequencies now in use, not for the pre repack frequencies.. However, from what I gather, the Televes antenna still won't be able to match the gain of what I already have.. Not sure i want to blow $200 and have it not help....


I have no experience with it. Agreed, *if *benefit is uncertain, why spend $200. AntennaManPA speaks favorably about it and and a few other antennas.

Related post: Antenna Amplifier


----------



## jamesm113

steel guitar guy said:


> Yeah, think I have 2 maybe 3 cell towers within maybe 2 miles or so... However, I don't want to take my setup down just to install a filter.. when it comes down, it goes back up higher, with a better preamp with filter in it,, new solid copper core coax, a widening of the space between the UHF/VHF antennas, and better, longer, guy wires..


I'd recommend doing one thing at a time if you can. Helps you better understand what helps and what hurts. I've found it's a very tedious process of A/B experimentation until you find something that works.

In the meantime, you can invest in a cheap (~$20) RTL-SDR scanner and do a spectrum scan to see what you are dealing with. 1. You can compare how weak the signals are when they come through and when they don't come through. 2. You can see the signal levels between 608-800 to tell you what LTE towers are in the area. 

In my area there was nothing on the 600 MHz band until a few weeks ago, T-Mobile has been busy with the rollout.


----------



## steel guitar guy

nathill said:


> I believe that the Kiztech KS-700 will help you quite a bit. It helped me when I replaced my RCA. I tend think that it may be a really hard job to get those last two. It's such a crap shoot with those "digital cliff" stations. Good luck!


 You stated that the Kitztech 700 worked better than your RCA. I am using the RCA and want to upgrade..Could you elaborate a bit on the improvements you experienced?.. Better signal strength, less dropout?... Just wondering .. I see the Kitz 700 has a bit less gain on UHF than the RCA, but a LOT better signal to noise ratio... Just wondering what improvements you noticed after the "upgrade"..bob


----------



## steel guitar guy

are 61+ miles away
are outside of the station's coverage maps*
have tropo terrain path profiles* showing multiple obstructions (no line of sight)
have_ "bad"_ Signal Power. Per Rabbit Ears,_ ""Bad" means there is likely little or nothing that can be done to bring that signal in."..._ 

I like and respect the rabbitears site, but at my place for whatever reason, its WAY out of whack.. The Elmira stations listed- I should not even get them in, yet they are all readily available and solid with just a tiny GE attic/outdoor antenna I am holding in my hand,, Put the tiny antenna 10 feet up, and they are at 60% or better.. Add a cheap inline booster and they are at 75%.. My main setup pointed towards Elmira gets them at close to 90%.. Same thing with Scranton which is 75 miles away... Virtual 16 is so strong I can get it with a loop of wire in my hand at times... Everything else is strong as well... according to TV Fool and rabbitears, there is almost nothing here, yet for 4 +years, I had good solid reception year round, with 64 and 38 being problematic uch of the time, and pretty good sometimes as well.. Yes those stations are right on the edge, thats why I was hoping maybe a better preamp, a little more elevation, and perhaps some LTE filtering could nudge it back to where I have had it just a few months ago... Might not work I realize that, but the reports for my place seem to show a LOT less available than what I have experienced.. There were times this summer, that I had 60 stations from 3 markets and most were solid.. Even now, I get a few Elmira stations off the side of the antenna and they are solid, and the reports show them as pretty much not viable at all... bob


----------



## ota.dt.man

steel guitar guy said:


> are 61+ miles away
> are outside of the station's coverage maps*
> have tropo terrain path profiles* showing multiple obstructions (no line of sight)
> have_ "bad"_ Signal Power. Per Rabbit Ears,_ ""Bad" means there is likely little or nothing that can be done to bring that signal in."..._
> 
> I like and respect the rabbitears site, but at my place for whatever reason, its WAY out of whack.. The Elmira stations listed- I should not even get them in, yet they are all readily available and solid with just a tiny GE attic/outdoor antenna I am holding in my hand,, Put the tiny antenna 10 feet up, and they are at 60% or better.. Add a cheap inline booster and they are at 75%.. My main setup pointed towards Elmira gets them at close to 90%.. Same thing with Scranton which is 75 miles away... Virtual 16 is so strong I can get it with a loop of wire in my hand at times... Everything else is strong as well... according to TV Fool and rabbitears, there is almost nothing here, yet for 4 +years, I had good solid reception year round, with 64 and 38 being problematic uch of the time, and pretty good sometimes as well.. Yes those stations are right on the edge, thats why I was hoping maybe a better preamp, a little more elevation, and perhaps some LTE filtering could nudge it back to where I have had it just a few months ago... Might not work I realize that, but the reports for my place seem to show a LOT less available than what I have experienced.. There were times this summer, that I had 60 stations from 3 markets and most were solid.. Even now, I get a few Elmira stations off the side of the antenna and they are solid, and the reports show them as pretty much not viable at all... bob


Rabbit Ears is the currently the best reception prediction site, YMMV. It is however, an excellent starting point for helpful reception discussions. You are the expert for your local reception area, especially with your specific antenna system. Given your recent loss of these two stations, the recent 5G rollout, and your proximity to cell towers, LTE filtering may be all you need, especially if you can verify if any of your nearby towers are transmitting 5G.


----------



## nathill

I actually carefully documented the differences between the Kiztech and the RCA. While the RCA had higher raw signal levels, the Kiztech ended up with better Signal to Noise ratios. I think it must be due to the lower noise level of the Kiztech.
The notice in SNR levels was clearly noticeable and a few borderline stations came in more reliably with the Kiztech.


----------



## ota.dt.man

steel guitar guy said:


> are 61+ miles away
> are outside of the station's coverage maps*
> have tropo terrain path profiles* showing multiple obstructions (no line of sight)
> have_ "bad"_ Signal Power. Per Rabbit Ears,_ ""Bad" means there is likely little or nothing that can be done to bring that signal in."..._
> 
> I like and respect the rabbitears site, but at my place for whatever reason, its WAY out of whack.. The Elmira stations listed- I should not even get them in, yet they are all readily available and solid with just a tiny GE attic/outdoor antenna I am holding in my hand,, Put the tiny antenna 10 feet up, and they are at 60% or better.. Add a cheap inline booster and they are at 75%.. My main setup pointed towards Elmira gets them at close to 90%.. Same thing with Scranton which is 75 miles away... Virtual 16 is so strong I can get it with a loop of wire in my hand at times... Everything else is strong as well... according to TV Fool and rabbitears, there is almost nothing here, yet for 4 +years, I had good solid reception year round, with 64 and 38 being problematic uch of the time, and pretty good sometimes as well.. Yes those stations are right on the edge, thats why I was hoping maybe a better preamp, a little more elevation, and perhaps some LTE filtering could nudge it back to where I have had it just a few months ago... Might not work I realize that, but the reports for my place seem to show a LOT less available than what I have experienced.. There were times this summer, that I had 60 stations from 3 markets and most were solid.. Even now, I get a few Elmira stations off the side of the antenna and they are solid, and the reports show them as pretty much not viable at all... bob


Another related LTE thread:








Philips LTE Filter Tests


Some new cell towers popped up in my area in the past week or so. Previously, only 746-756 MHz would show up in scans. Got a Philips LTE/5G to replace my Aerial Industries FAE60 (700+) LTE filter. Used my RTL SDR to run some spectrum analyzer tests on new the Phillips LTE/5G filter as well as...




www.avsforum.com


----------



## ota.dt.man

steel guitar guy said:


> .. My main setup pointed towards Elmira gets them at close to 90%.. Same thing with Scranton which is 75 miles away... Virtual 16 is so strong I can get it with a loop of wire in my hand at times... Everything else is strong as well... according to TV Fool and rabbitears, there is almost nothing here, yet for 4 +years, I had good solid reception year round, with 64 and 38 being problematic much of the time, and pretty good sometimes as well..


Bob,

How tall is your main setup AGL? If that detail wasn't factored into your previous Rabbit Ears results, you might receive a report that is closer to your actual experience.


----------



## ota.dt.man

I just checked your 11/28/22 post:


steel guitar guy said:


> Also have the big Stellar Labs high VHF antenna about I dunno, 2 1/2, maybe 3 feet under the UHF antenna... They are about 25 feet AGL, and I plan on extending them another 7 feet to 32 feet AGL, and thats about all I can go..


 Yet, the Rabbit Ears link from your same post indicates:

*Receive Height**30' *(AGL); 1120' (AMSL)
You might try running another report at 25 ft for comparison.


----------



## ota.dt.man

Related rabbit73 search results for ‘antenna height’:

The Official AVS Antenna and Related Hardware Topic!
Cleveland, OH - HDTV
Boston, MA - OTA


----------



## steel guitar guy

ota.dt.man said:


> I just checked your 11/28/22 post:
> Yet, the Rabbit Ears link from your same post indicates:
> 
> *Receive Height**30' *(AGL); 1120' (AMSL)
> You might try running another report at 25 ft for comparison.


 Yeah for some reason when I try to run a report at 25 feet I get nothing at rabbitears, just a blank white screen,,, I tried tvfool and it showed the same exact thing at 25a. and 30 feet AGL.
Not sure it would show any large difference between 25 and 30 feet , but it might I suppose.

In my situation, I am stuck with where the antenna is, and can only go up so far.. Not going to put a tower up, as its not worth the trouble.. Most of the good stations and the ones I desire most are out of Syracuse/Utica, but if the searches I have done in the past are any indication, they would be impossible even with 350 feet elevation.. Probably because I have a miles of rock 1/4 to the north of thats 500 feet higher than my elevation..
Not sure the extra 7 feet in elevation I plan on will make any difference, but between that and a new[better I hope] preamps, new coax leads etc, I am hoping for the little extra signal I need to make those 2 stations more reliable as they were just a short time ago.. Something may have even happened at the transmission sites, that I have no control over who knows... 
I did pull a splitter with a 6 inch length of coax out of the lead in, but there was no difference, most likely because that was downstream of the preamp.. bob


----------



## Primestar31

steel guitar guy said:


> Yeah for some reason when I try to run a report at 25 feet I get nothing at rabbitears, just a blank white screen,,, I tried tvfool and it showed the same exact thing at 25a. and 30 feet AGL.
> Not sure it would show any large difference between 25 and 30 feet , but it might I suppose.
> 
> In my situation, I am stuck with where the antenna is, and can only go up so far.. Not going to put a tower up, as its not worth the trouble.. Most of the good stations and the ones I desire most are out of Syracuse/Utica, but if the searches I have done in the past are any indication, they would be impossible even with 350 feet elevation.. Probably because I have a miles of rock 1/4 to the north of thats 500 feet higher than my elevation..
> Not sure the extra 7 feet in elevation I plan on will make any difference, but between that and a new[better I hope] preamps, new coax leads etc, I am hoping for the little extra signal I need to make those 2 stations more reliable as they were just a short time ago.. Something may have even happened at the transmission sites, that I have no control over who knows...
> I did pull a splitter with a 6 inch length of coax out of the lead in, but there was no difference, most likely because that was downstream of the preamp.. bob


Since you are dealing with defraction mountain issues, perhaps it would help to slightly TILT the antenna up a little bit, maybe 1-2 degrees. It might even help to aim in a direction that's NOT directly towards the station towers. Defraction type signal reception is completely unpredictable on what works "best". It's not always the most obvious things.


----------



## jamesm113

@steel guitar guy 

It would be beneficial to try various heights/locations, especially for UHF: 




Another link: Siting the antenna

And don't forget to pick up an LTE/5G filter


----------



## steel guitar guy

Primestar31 said:


> Since you are dealing with defraction mountain issues, perhaps it would help to slightly TILT the antenna up a little bit, maybe 1-2 degrees. It might even help to aim in a direction that's NOT directly towards the station towers. Defraction type signal reception is completely unpredictable on what works "best". It's not always the most obvious things.


 Been trying all that stuff for a month, and think I am on to something, but then am disappointed again.. Here's something that I can't explain, but maybe someone else here can..
In August when it was warm and humid these stations were at their best..64 was solid and dependable all day, and 38 was sketchy during the day, and better at night maybe 75 % dependable , as soon as the sun went down... However, as the fall progressed, the leaves kept dropping, skies became more clear and less humid, and temps dropped, the reception on these 2 weak stations got worse and worse, the exact total opposite of whats happened the past 4 or so years since I installed the system.. The stronger stations have remained solid, with perhaps only 22 and 28 out of Scranton being a bit less strong on the signal strength graph
[ maybe] at times but still reliable, both are VHF high... At a total loss as to why the 2 weak UHF stations [v38 v64 scranton] got weaker this year at the same exact time of year they used to get a lot stronger... Really odd.... bob


----------



## Primestar31

steel guitar guy said:


> However, as the fall progressed, the leaves kept dropping, skies became more clear and less humid, and temps dropped, *the reception on these 2 weak stations got worse and worse*,


That's the VERY DEFINITION of Tropo type reception... typically great when very HOT out, and when it cools down, bad to non-existent.

VHF signals are much longer than UHF, and propagate better.

Both of those stations have very directional antennas, that can also make things weird:





__





RabbitEars.Info


RabbitEars, where you can learn all about local, over-the-air TV channels.




www.rabbitears.info









__





RabbitEars.Info


RabbitEars, where you can learn all about local, over-the-air TV channels.




www.rabbitears.info


----------



## rabbit73

jamesm113 said:


> @steel guitar guy
> 
> It would be beneficial to try various heights/locations, especially for UHF:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another link: Siting the antenna
> 
> And don't forget to pick up an LTE/5G filter


I remember Peter Putman's article (no longer available because his site hdtvexpert no longer exists) about that difficult reception site, but I didn't know he had made a video.

Thanks for the link.


----------



## steel guitar guy

Primestar31 said:


> That's the VERY DEFINITION of Tropo type reception... typically great when very HOT out, and when it cools down, bad to non-existent.
> 
> VHF signals are much longer than UHF, and propagate better.
> 
> Both of those stations have very directional antennas, that can also make things weird:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RabbitEars.Info
> 
> 
> RabbitEars, where you can learn all about local, over-the-air TV channels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rabbitears.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RabbitEars.Info
> 
> 
> RabbitEars, where you can learn all about local, over-the-air TV channels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rabbitears.info


 Understood, but the stations were also ok in spring of this year, winter and fall of 2021 as well... They started to be a problem in I dunno, maybe mid to late sept... Before that, 64 was fairly reliable and had been for a long time, and 38 was sketchy\, but there most nights... If it was strictly a tropo type of thing, you wouldn't think I would be getting the stations over the course of over a year... During most tropo events I get stations from philly, Harrisburg, etc.. When that happens some of the closer stations actually crap out as the distant signals overwhelm them for a period of hours... bob


----------



## nathill

jamesm113 said:


> @steel guitar guy
> 
> It would be beneficial to try various heights/locations, especially for UHF:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another link: Siting the antenna
> 
> And don't forget to pick up an LTE/5G filter


That video was absolutely amazing. I knOw location is extremely important and there is a lot of luck involved just based on my fooling around with my own antennas. but had no idea of "knife edge" signals, or whatever term he used. Just fascinating.
THANKS!


----------



## jamesm113

rabbit73 said:


> I remember Peter Putman's article (no longer available because his site hdtvexpert no longer exists) about that difficult reception site, but I didn't know he had made a video.
> 
> Thanks for the link.


Looks like his site is pretty well archived on web.archive.org: Electronic Visualization for the Next Century - HDTVexpert


----------



## ughAudio

nice sale at *New-ark* if anyone wants to gang and/or stack a highVHF antenna. a bit more than twice the wholesale cost.... check it out. unsure if we need them all, but bought four!











@ChiwaukeeOTA you had that bad windstorm you posted here that destroyed yours, in case you're interested. you helped so much with our question about guying in another thread. *thank you!*


----------



## rabbit73

jamesm113 said:


> Looks like his site is pretty well archived on web.archive.org: Electronic Visualization for the Next Century - HDTVexpert


Good research. Thanks for the link.

Page 4 of the HDTVexpert archive has most of an article (some images missing and looks like an earlier visit) about that reception site, but I think the video you found is better.
Archives | HDTVexpert
might take a long time to download


----------



## rabbit73

nathill said:


> That video was absolutely amazing. I knOw location is extremely important and there is a lot of luck involved just based on my fooling around with my own antennas. but had no idea of "knife edge" signals, or whatever term he used. Just fascinating.
> THANKS!


A description of the "Knife-Edge Effect:"
knife-edge effect - TIA's Glossary of Telecommunication Terms

A video of the "Knife-Edge Effect:"





Siting the antenna
scroll down to *Skyline Multi-path

Refraction* causes* bending* of the signal.

*Diffraction *causes *scattering* of the signal.


----------



## jamesm113

ughAudio said:


> nice sale at *New-ark* if anyone wants to gang and/or stack a highVHF antenna. a bit more than twice the wholesale cost.... check it out. unsure if we need them all, but bought four!
> 
> View attachment 3367616
> 
> 
> 
> @ChiwaukeeOTA you had that bad windstorm you posted here that destroyed yours, in case you're interested. you helped so much with our question about guying in another thread. *thank you!*


Have a link?


----------



## Primestar31

jamesm113 said:


> Have a link?





https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2476/deep-fringe-directional-antenna/dp/71Y5462


----------



## ughAudio

jamesm113 said:


> Have a link?





Primestar31 said:


> https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2476/deep-fringe-directional-antenna/dp/71Y5462


thanx Primestar31...... forgot 'bout including that info. good deal for 23/each plus ship.


----------



## jamesm113

This was the one: [Hot Item] Outdoor VHF TV Antenna (V-13h)

Didn't see the min order of 1,000 on your screen shot


----------



## Finch85

Evening everyone. It has been awhile since I've been on this forum. I've been having some signal issues for a while and getting tired of moving the antenna trying for an improvement w/ no success.

I'm not entirely sure what you all need but I'll take a stab at it.

Rabbit Ears results

Setup: 91XG and Stellar Labs 30-2475
RCA dual input preamp
Mounted on garage roof approx. 15ft high or so
Tivo Bolt OTA

My strongest channels are almost unbearable to watch here lately. A lot of "blipping" as I call it. I used to receive channels 7, 10, 27 pretty good. I also received 13 soley on the 91XG but decided to add the Stellar Labs dedicated just for 13. Now it is crappy too. I've been through a couple pre-amps and wondering if that could be the culprit again. I haven't bought a replacement yet as I have a question regarding preamps.

I'm wondering if I should upgrade preamps to the Televes 560483 over the RCA?


----------



## jamesm113

@Finch85 TVFool is out of date. Use rabbitears instead: RabbitEars.Info


----------



## rabbit73

*Using the Comparison Feature of the RTL-SDR Scanner Software*

This comparison is between two VHF-High antennas for the reception of RF channels 7 and 11.










The first antenna is a VHF-High Quad Loop. The second antenna is the VHF-High Folded Dipole of a GE 29884. The two antennas are in slightly different locations. The Loop is against an inside wall; the 29884 is aimed out a window. There are trees in the signal paths.

I did a scan for each antenna and then saved each .rfs file in a folder separate from the Scanner software folder.



















The loop looks better for channel 11; the 29884 folded dipole looks better for channel 7, but the SNR of the high end of channel 7 is reduced by multipath which will make its reception more difficult. Channel 11 is the one I need the most. My TV tuner will tell me what works best.

I then combined each saved .rfs file in the Comparison screen:










Then I added the Difference between the two scans:










On a later day, I made some signal measurements:



Code:


Signal Measurements of two VHF-High Antennas
Channel 7 (21.1) TBN
              SONY TV              Signal Level
     Signal    SNR     Errors         Meter
    Strength    dB                  dBmV   dBm

Loop   26      15-17   30-100      -15.7  -64.5
29884  29      17-20     0         -12.7  -61.5

Channel 11 (13.1) ABC
Loop   29       26       0         -8.8   -57.6
29884  26      21-23     0         -12.0  -60.8
Equipment used:
SONY TV KDL40R350D
Sadelco DisplayMax 800 Signal Level Meter which
takes the average of 49 measurements as it scans
across the channel.

On another evening, I made some measurements with an SDRPlay RSP1A and a SiliconDust Connect HDHR4-US:






































For improved reception of Channel 7, a better location for the antenna would be required. That isn't available to me in a retirement home.










Some Attachments added just for fun.


----------



## Finch85

jamesm113 said:


> @Finch85 TVFool is out of date. Use rabbitears instead: RabbitEars.Info


Updated and even added a pic of my setup. Thanks


----------



## jamesm113

Finch85 said:


> Evening everyone. It has been awhile since I've been on this forum. I've been having some signal issues for a while and getting tired of moving the antenna trying for an improvement w/ no success.
> 
> I'm not entirely sure what you all need but I'll take a stab at it.
> 
> Rabbit Ears results
> 
> Setup: 91XG and Stellar Labs 30-2475
> RCA dual input preamp
> Mounted on garage roof approx. 15ft high or so
> Tivo Bolt OTA
> 
> My strongest channels are almost unbearable to watch here lately. A lot of "blipping" as I call it. I used to receive channels 7, 10, 27 pretty good. I also received 13 soley on the 91XG but decided to add the Stellar Labs dedicated just for 13. Now it is crappy too. I've been through a couple pre-amps and wondering if that could be the culprit again. I haven't bought a replacement yet as I have a question regarding preamps.
> 
> I'm wondering if I should upgrade preamps to the Televes 560483 over the RCA?
> 
> 
> View attachment 3369234


When did you start having issues? Were the replacement pre-amps the same RCA pre-amp too?

Can specify which stations and their RF channel (not virtual)? Based on your channel numbers I suspect you listed virtual numbers, not the actual channel numbers.

Have you tried an FM filter and/or an LTE/5G filter before your preamp? If there's a nearby FM radio station and/or cell phone tower it could be overloading your pre-amp.


----------



## steel guitar guy

Finch.. Your setup is identical to mine.. 91X and 30-2476.. RCA dual input preamp... I have the bigger version of your VHF antenna, but did not install 1 reflector element, and the front 4 director elements, as I didn't need them, as the gain was the same without them or with them when I tested it, so its identical to your 30-2475... Only difference between my setup and yours is that I point both antennas in the same direction.. I have had the EXACT same issue as you.. A few channels that were fairly reliable are now garbage.. One is gone, one is now unreliable after a long period of stability.. have no idea why, and I, like you was wondering if the televes preamp would do a better job as it does have a little higher gain and a little less noise than the RCA... Also considering putting the big repack updated UHF/VHF Televes LR DATBOSS up there, but not sure it will out gain the 91X.. Might have a bit less noise and less interference, with less wiring and crap between the antenna and TV, and possibly less multipath interference as well.. Just not sure if I want to replace the entire setup, or just the preamp.. I'll watch with interest what these smarter than I am guys have to say..- bob


----------



## Finch85

jamesm113 said:


> When did you start having issues? Were the replacement pre-amps the same RCA pre-amp too?
> 
> Can specify which stations and their RF channel (not virtual)? Based on your channel numbers I suspect you listed virtual numbers, not the actual channel numbers.
> 
> Have you tried an FM filter and/or an LTE/5G filter before your preamp? If there's a nearby FM radio station and/or cell phone tower it could be overloading your pre-amp.


Probably a few months now and have just dealt with it. Not much tv watching until this time of year. I've only had RCA preamps. I've been having issues with CBS, NBC, FOX, ABC if this is what you mean by listing stations. I have not tried a filter of any sort.

One interesting note to add. It has been raining all day. All of the aforementioned channels are exceptional. No dropouts or "blipping". What would explain this? Makes me think I do NOT have a preamp issue after-all. WSET (13.1) is still unwatchable however.


----------



## Finch85

steel guitar guy said:


> Finch.. Your setup is identical to mine.. 91X and 30-2476.. RCA dual input preamp... I have the bigger version of your VHF antenna, but did not install 1 reflector element, and the front 4 director elements, as I didn't need them, as the gain was the same without them or with them when I tested it, so its identical to your 30-2475... Only difference between my setup and yours is that I point both antennas in the same direction.. I have had the EXACT same issue as you.. A few channels that were fairly reliable are now garbage.. One is gone, one is now unreliable after a long period of stability.. have no idea why, and I, like you was wondering if the televes preamp would do a better job as it does have a little higher gain and a little less noise than the RCA... Also considering putting the big repack updated UHF/VHF Televes LR DATBOSS up there, but not sure it will out gain the 91X.. Might have a bit less noise and less interference, with less wiring and crap between the antenna and TV, and possibly less multipath interference as well.. Just not sure if I want to replace the entire setup, or just the preamp.. I'll watch with interest what these smarter than I am guys have to say..- bob


Interesting, thanks for the input. Hopefully you get yours figured out. I just posted that all but one of my problem channels are perfect this evening. It has been raining all day here which I'm not sure what effect that would have on my signal.


----------



## jamesm113

Finch85 said:


> Probably a few months now and have just dealt with it. Not much tv watching until this time of year. I've only had RCA preamps. I've been having issues with CBS, NBC, FOX, ABC if this is what you mean by listing stations. I have not tried a filter of any sort.
> 
> One interesting note to add. It has been raining all day. All of the aforementioned channels are exceptional. No dropouts or "blipping". What would explain this? Makes me think I do NOT have a preamp issue after-all. WSET (13.1) is still unwatchable however.


So there's a difference between virtual channels that shows up on your TV and the actual channel that the station is broadcasted on. While WSET shows up as a 13-1 on your TV, it's actually broadcasting on channel 7. Your CBS affiliate, WDBJ, is actually broadcasting on 30, even though the virtual channel is 7-1. NBC is broadcasting on channel 34, Fox is broadcasting channel 36. Channels 2-6 are "low VHF" which require a certain type of antenna (large), 7-13 are high VHF require another type of antenna (your stellar labs VHF antenna is a good high VHF antenna), while 14-36 require a UHF antenna (your 91xg).

One of the middle directors on your 30-2475 antenna looks slightly off-line from the picture.

On your rabbitears report, you can see the terrain profile for the signals for your stations by clicking on the distance - all of them are 1-Edge (meaning there's terrain blocking a direct signal path), except WDBJ is 2-Edge. Going to be difficult to get those signals reliably. How long were they reliably coming in before you began having issues?


----------



## Finch85

jamesm113 said:


> So there's a difference between virtual channels that shows up on your TV and the actual channel that the station is broadcasted on. While WSET shows up as a 13-1 on your TV, it's actually broadcasting on channel 7. Your CBS affiliate, WDBJ, is actually broadcasting on 30, even though the virtual channel is 7-1. NBC is broadcasting on channel 34, Fox is broadcasting channel 36. Channels 2-6 are "low VHF" which require a certain type of antenna (large), 7-13 are high VHF require another type of antenna (your stellar labs VHF antenna is a good high VHF antenna), while 14-36 require a UHF antenna (your 91xg).
> 
> One of the middle directors on your 30-2475 antenna looks slightly off-line from the picture.
> 
> On your rabbitears report, you can see the terrain profile for the signals for your stations by clicking on the distance - all of them are 1-Edge (meaning there's terrain blocking a direct signal path), except WDBJ is 2-Edge. Going to be difficult to get those signals reliably. How long were they reliably coming in before you began having issues?


That was an old pic but I'll check to see if I ever straightened the director. Thanks for the explanation on the real vs virtual channels. Never knew that. 

I'd say I was getting these channels reliably for at least a few years or so. What explains the perfect picture yesterday evening during all the rain? I seriously saw zero issues but a blue sky days seems to be bad.


----------



## mgkdragn

Posting to get this thread on my AVS feed .. cord cutting in progress ..


----------



## jamesm113

Finch85 said:


> That was an old pic but I'll check to see if I ever straightened the director. Thanks for the explanation on the real vs virtual channels. Never knew that.
> 
> I'd say I was getting these channels reliably for at least a few years or so. What explains the perfect picture yesterday evening during all the rain? I seriously saw zero issues but a blue sky days seems to be bad.


I'm by no means an expert on here, but in my area, T-Mobile recently (like within the past 2 months) rolled out 5G towers in the 600 MHz range (what used to be channels 37-51). It's possible if there is a tower operating nearby it's too strong for your preamp to handle, especially for UHF channels (14+). This is known as overloading. 

Same thing can happen with an FM radio station, but that usually FM impacts VHF (2-13) - ie WSET for you.

If that's the cause, an LTE filter (like this one from channel master) between your 91xg and your preamp might help your UHF channels. The best way to find out is try. You might be able to find the filter somewhere that has an easy return policy in case it does not help. The Televes pre-amp you are considering already has the LTE/5G filter built in.

The other problem is, your signals are all fairly weak and all 1-edge/2-edge (bouncing off mountain tops), which makes reception difficult and unpredictable. Check out pages 970-971 of this thread, lots of good info posted, especially about knife edge diffraction.

Your signal was likely close to marginal to begin with, so anything that reduces the signal level is likely to cause drop outs. With digital signals, there's a "digital cliff" where basically everything works perfectly until it doesn't: https://www.tvtechnology.com/be-blogs/1649

To that end, assuming the signal is reaching you reliably, everything you can do to improve your signal to noise ratio with give you a bit of a buffer before you encounter drop-outs. Adding filters, getting your antenna higher, optimizing antenna placement, high gain antennas, high quality RG6 coax downlead, etc, etc.


----------



## statmanmi

Finch85 said:


> Evening everyone. It has been awhile since I've been on this forum. I've been having some signal issues for a while and getting tired of moving the antenna trying for an improvement w/ no success.
> ...
> I'm wondering if I should upgrade preamps to the Televes 560483 over the RCA?


Hi Finch85,
I'll add my two cents of advice to what others have already offered:

* Have you inspected all coax, for things such as loose connections, water infiltration (at one buddy's home, when we undid the coax connection in the basement, and a quarter cup of water streamed out), rust, etc.? Especially look at any ends that aren't compression fittings for degradation.

* If your current RCA preamp is their older model with separate UHF and VHF inputs, and you want to keep using it, double-check that the switch inside hasn't slipped from separate inputs to the combined setting. I had mine do that once, and I'm not sure how. Given that I'm in Michigan, I realized that could be a problem if it acted up again during winter when there's snow and ice on the garage roof getting to the mast. Possibly I even squirted some silicone in to help keep it in place.

* Further, I had my RCA preamp become unreliable on the VHF side. My market has 4 full-power, major network High-VHF transmissions, plus I get 2 other out-of-market full-power High-VHF signals quite solidly. When the RCA started failing, we'd have times that even the closest High-VHFs wouldn't decode, or flake out every few minutes. I happen to have a HDHR unit feeding into the RabbitEars Live Bandscan site, and the history graphs would show how erratic things were, especially before I did my troubleshooting and ceased using that RCA preamp. I'll never use a RCA preamp again, even though their newer model (with only the single input) supposedly has a more robust power supply (which didn't seem to be my issue, but many others have posted as being a weakness).

* I'll definitely vote yes to your thought of replacing the RCA, and with a Televes (even though I don't own one)--for reasons others have expressed. But the dual-input 560483 model isn't ideal for you, given that your two aerials are band-specific. Rather, go with the single-input 560383 and a UVSJ. Post #18,887 in this thread by Primestar31 (link: The Official AVS Antenna and Related Hardware Topic! ) explains why that's a better solution when one has specific UHF-dedicated and VHF-dedicated antennas. Reading the posts preceding that one by him and others (spanning Feb.-Apr. 2021) covers how he started with the dual 560483 and was disappointed, but that the 560383 served him well.

Cheers! ~~ Statmanmi


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## nathill

I have had sporadic performance from RCA preamps. Seems like they often fade away over time.
I really like my recently installed Kitztech *KT-700-COAX*. It has an input for VHF and one for UHF, although you can combine them if you want to. It outputs a slightly lower signal level, but it must have a very low noise level, because it does a really good job on the two or three very marginal signals that I receive more regularly now.


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## steel guitar guy

In my situation, I have noticed something else thats become more of a problem, yet its a fairly recent development.. I will have a solid station on, thats getting a solid signal between lets say 70 to 90%,, I will see it drop like a rock down to almost 0, picture breaks up/pixelates, and then it shoots back up to full strength, and varies widely between that high spot of 70 to 90%[depending on channel] to around 40% or so with no breakup, and then down to 0 again, breaks up, then back up where it should be,,, just crazy variation with the signal meter going up and down like crazy... Does it on all stations, but as crazy as it seems, the fringe stations seem less affected than the strongest ones... This is all new, all within the last 2 weeks.. system has been up over 5 years and i never saw this. Is it multipath, or my questionable RCA preamp freaking out?... It does not do it all the time, but its more frequent each day, and time of day does NOT matter.. Sometimes at night, sometimes mid day.. any thoughts??/..... bob


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## Primestar31

steel guitar guy said:


> In my situation, I have noticed something else thats become more of a problem, yet its a fairly recent development.. I will have a solid station on, thats getting a solid signal between lets say 70 to 90%,, I will see it drop like a rock down to almost 0, picture breaks up/pixelates, and then it shoots back up to full strength, and varies widely between that high spot of 70 to 90%[depending on channel] to around 40% or so with no breakup, and then down to 0 again, breaks up, then back up where it should be,,, just crazy variation with the signal meter going up and down like crazy... Does it on all stations, but as crazy as it seems, the fringe stations seem less affected than the strongest ones... This is all new, all within the last 2 weeks.. system has been up over 5 years and i never saw this. Is it multipath, or my questionable RCA preamp freaking out?... It does not do it all the time, but its more frequent each day, and time of day does NOT matter.. Sometimes at night, sometimes mid day.. any thoughts??/..... bob


Yep, put one of these right off the antenna, and before any preamp if you have one: LTE/5G Filter

Though it's possible it could be a flaky preamp. I'd still try the 5g filter as a test


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## steel guitar guy

Sadly I have to wait until spring\, no matter what I want to add.. Not really all that interested in taking down the entire rig in Dec in upstate NY!. Which I would have to do to install the LTE filter. However, this spring I am for certain going to install either the Televes preamp that has the filter as part of the preamp, or possibly putting up the Televes Datboss LR Mix -Hi VHF/UHF... I need as much gain as possible in this area- its deep fringe for sure, but I am hoping I can get close to as much UHF gain with the televes and its built in preamp as I am getting from the 91X and the RCA preamp.. I would like to eliminate the lead in coax from the antennas to the preamp, and the Televes would do that... Really not sure which way to go.. Some guys here have said the Televes Mix beat or at least matched their 91X, others have said the 91X was the better performer.. trying to get as much info and as many opinions as I can right now before making the decision.... bob


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## steel guitar guy

Its getting really tough here to get any discussions going these days, so let me try this... I would love to get an opinion or two and discuss it off site via email.. There are a few guys here with first hand experience with a few items I am deciding between, and real world experience is what I am after, not so much graphs showing gain,SNR etc...
I would love to talk to anyone that has used both the Televes Datboss LR Mix and any of the 91 X style antennas... Some have found the Televes outperformed the 91X, but just as many have found the opposite, which makes the decision tougher.. Also, anyone that may have moved on from the RCA preamp to a Kitz or Televes, I would like your thoughts as well.. Tried PM'ing a member here with experience, but the PM either doesn't work, or I am doing it wrong although I never had problems before... It just seems this section of the forum is really slow compared to a few years ago, and I also think maybe my really dumb, overly basic questions are more of an annoyance than a challenge to the more knowledgeable members here, so one on one might be better.. If there is anyone out there with hands on experience in the items mentioned, I would really appreciate the opportunity for a private chat via email.. Thanks... bob

[email protected]


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## LenL

I understand what you are looking for but as YOU should know everyone's reception situation is different. By that I mean what works well for me at my location may not work well for you at your location. Reception over the air is very finicky and sometimes hit or miss. Sometimes it changes from season to season and year to year. You have tropo, trees and leaves, broadcasters making their own antenna changes, etc. I could go on and on. The best way for you to approach it is to experiment with different equipment and work with vendors that have a liberal return policy.

Or you could just hire a pro like Antenna Man to figure it out for you!


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## steel guitar guy

Don't need Antenna Man for this .. Where I am is a very challenging, and I need the absolute maximum gain I can get for the couple stations that are problematic.. I could get a tower, or gang the 91x, but I really don't want to go that far.. I am doing some work on my setup in a few months, and I need to decide between the Datboss LR, and increased height, or keeping the 91 X , ditching the RCA preamp for a better one, and increasing height... If I go with the Televes, I also eliminate 2 coax leads and connections to the pre amp,... Antenna Man is fine, I respect what he does, but all he is going to do, is look at my report and recommend either the Televes, or the 91X and a big Stellar Labs High VHF antenna with a preamp, which is already up there... I DO understand every situation is different, and in my case the "reports" are way off for some reason, as I actually do ok.. All I am looking for is the little bit of extra gain, or that little reduction in noise/interference that would make 2 weak stations somewhat more solid.. I will go one way or the other or both before too long, but would still like a few opinion from hands on guys that have experience with the pieces I am considering. bob


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## jamesm113

+1 on experimenting with different equipment. Your situation is going to be different than others and that's the only way you will know for sure. Nobody is going to have a magic bullet answer for you.

After watching many of Antenna Man's videos, I paid for Antenna Man's consultation service. I was not impressed at all, he didn't really help resolve my issues and I noticed several mistakes and inaccuracies in his responses. He basically just looks at your rabbitears report and makes a half-hearted recommendation for an antenna. For my situation, he listed like 2-3 different VHF antennas and 3 UHF antennas that "might work" and left me to experiment after paying him the $40. He didn't help resolve or provide any guidance on my interference issues, etc

@steel guitar guy I would recommend figuring out what are the most likely causes of your issues, then attempting to solve them in that order.

The rapid signal quality drops and recoveries point to interference. Have you looked to see if there are any nearby cell towers operating on 600 MHz-800 MHz? A site like Cellular Tower and Signal Map should allow to find out if you have something nearby, though it's a bit annoying to use. T-Mobile is in the process of rolling out towers using their 600MHz spectrum. I think other providers use 600 MHz too, but not 100% sure on that. 2 months ago, I wouldn't get T-Mobile's 5G signal in my area, now I get super fast 5G UC signal on my phone. T-Mobile is using spectrum that used to be UHF channels 38-51 prior to the 2020 repack. It's very possible/likely that a nearby cell tower is operating in that range and overloading your pre-amp and interfering with your reception.

Interference isn't just limited to cell phone towers too. A nearby FM radio station could cause issues, especially with VHF stations. Check FMFool.com to see if there's a nearby FM station. Channel Master makes an FM trap that helps aide with FM interference

Or it could be a household device or a neighbors household device. A portable AM radio can be used to triangulate such sources of interference.

Next up, it could be a failing pre-amp. But based on the description and timing of your reception issues, interference seems more likely, so I'd start with ruling out interference before throwing the parts cannon at it. However, since you are not able to get up there during the winter and others have reported issues with failing RCA pre-amps, it might be worth replacing it with a higher quality pre-amp once the snow melts if you have the money to burn.

And lastly, it could be your antenna. But given that you already have a 91xg and 30-2476 deep fringe VHF antenna, you have 2 of the highest gain antennas out there already. Unless they are physically damaged, it's unlikely they are the source of your problems. But for the sake of argument, let's say the Televes Datboss LR Mix -Hi VHF/UHF provides for a slight improvement, and your signal levels go from 70-90 to 73-93%. I'm not sure how that helps you...


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## TelevesTech

steel guitar guy said:


> Don't need Antenna Man for this .. Where I am is a very challenging, and I need the absolute maximum gain I can get for the couple stations that are problematic.. I could get a tower, or gang the 91x, but I really don't want to go that far.. I am doing some work on my setup in a few months, and I need to decide between the Datboss LR, and increased height, or keeping the 91 X , ditching the RCA preamp for a better one, and increasing height... If I go with the Televes, I also eliminate 2 coax leads and connections to the pre amp,... Antenna Man is fine, I respect what he does, but all he is going to do, is look at my report and recommend either the Televes, or the 91X and a big Stellar Labs High VHF antenna with a preamp, which is already up there... I DO understand every situation is different, and in my case the "reports" are way off for some reason, as I actually do ok.. All I am looking for is the little bit of extra gain, or that little reduction in noise/interference that would make 2 weak stations somewhat more solid.. I will go one way or the other or both before too long, but would still like a few opinion from hands on guys that have experience with the pieces I am considering. bob


Here's a UHF comparative response between the 91XG and a Televes 149884. Focus on continuous traces for an apples-to-apples response comparison.


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## Primestar31

jamesm113 said:


> And lastly, it could be your antenna. But given that you already have a 91xg and 30-2476 deep fringe VHF antenna, you have 2 of the highest gain antennas out there already. Unless they are physically damaged, it's unlikely they are the source of your problems. *But for the sake of argument, let's say the Televes Datboss LR Mix -Hi VHF/UHF provides for a slight improvement, and your signal levels go from 70-90 to 73-93%.* I'm not sure how that helps you...


@steel guitar guy See the above that I bolded? James is right, that's pretty much EXACTLY the difference between the 91xg/30-2476 combo, and the newest Televes Dat Boss LR Mix.

I was using a 91xg for UHF, a AntennaCraft Y10-7-13 (10 ft long, slightly edges out the 30-2476) for VHF, and a Kitztech KT-200-Coax preamp with the best quadshield coax and such. I've now switched to the newest Televes Dat Boss LR Mix 149884.

There's not much difference, except the Televes antenna seems to give a bit more solid UP TIME compared to the combo system. I have touchy defractive reception in my wooded area, FM issues, 5g/LTE issues and extensive hobbyist experience in antennas and such for many, many years.

So, it's more or less a wash, THOUGH, I'd say the Televes slightly edges the combo out, and has slightly sharper aim. So, IF you want to go to a simpler system that already contains the best preamp with filters built-in, and willing to spend $160~ Try the Televes, I don't think you'll be sorry. Just make SURE if you do, it's the LR model I quoted above, 149884. You do not want the older one, or the smaller just Dat Boss (non) LR, those don't filter the latest 5g/LTE 608Mhz band


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## steel guitar guy

jamesm113 said:


> But for the sake of argument, let's say the Televes Datboss LR Mix -Hi VHF/UHF provides for a slight improvement, and your signal levels go from 70-90 to 73-93%. I'm not sure how that helps you...


 Not much I need on most stations.. They are all solid, except for when I get those odd drops, when the strong solid signals drop down to nothing, and come right back up... Maddening when it happens, but is not all the time.. Hoping the LTE filter in the next preamp helps with that.. I suppose it could also be the preamp going bad, its been up there 5 or 6 years..

I have 2 very weak stations that are problematic, one is usually there, but drops out a lot usually just momentarily, the other scans at times, and other times not.. Both were there pretty well until about late september, and then started going south.. I figured with the combination of 4 things, MAYBE I could get that little more gain, and that little less loss that would make them more reliable-
1- better [more gain less noise] preamp than the RCA.
2- another 7 feet in elevation from where it is now.
3- Less crap between the antenna and the TV
4- perhaps just a tad more gain on the UHF antenna, do to design,,
The 91X from what I understand has much of its gain in the frequencies that have been sold to the phone companies, whereas the Televes has much of its gain in the UHF frequencies now in use. I like the fact that Televes made the effort to redesign its equipment to succeed in what we have in 2022, and not what we had in 2015... Its not the end of the world in any case, between OTA, and Roku, I have more TV than I care to watch.. Its more of the fact, that I HAD those 2 really weak stations pretty well locked in , and now don't, and I want to find out why, and am willing to spend a few hundred bucks to see if I can get them back even though I never watched them all that much .. One it goes much past that couple hundred though, I will lose interest quick!... Its more of the "hunt" really, not so much the need.... bob


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## steel guitar guy

Primestar31 said:


> @steel guitar guy See the above that I bolded? James is right, that's pretty much EXACTLY the difference between the 91xg/30-2476 combo, and the newest Televes Dat Boss LR Mix.
> 
> I was using a 91xg for UHF, a AntennaCraft Y10-7-13 (10 ft long, slightly edges out the 30-2476) for VHF, and a Kitztech KT-200-Coax preamp with the best quadshield coax and such. I've now switched to the newest Televes Dat Boss LR Mix 149884.
> 
> There's not much difference, except the Televes antenna seems to give a bit more solid UP TIME compared to the combo system. I have touchy defractive reception in my wooded area, FM issues, 5g/LTE issues and extensive hobbyist experience in antennas and such for many, many years.
> 
> So, it's more or less a wash, THOUGH, I'd say the Televes slightly edges the combo out, and has slightly sharper aim. So, IF you want to go to a simpler system that already contains the best preamp with filters built-in, and willing to spend $160~ Try the Televes, I don't think you'll be sorry. Just make SURE if you do, it's the LR model I quoted above, 149884. You do not want the older one, or the smaller just Dat Boss (non) LR, those don't filter the latest 5g/LTE 608Mhz band


 yes thats about what I thought.. I knew all along I wasn't going to get a massive edge in gain.. However, I am deleting some coax and connections, getting a tad more gain and less noise in the preamp than I have with the RCA, and will have a mast 7 feet longer. Also the LTE filter built in, and getting rid of the fairly close proximity of the 2 antennas that may or may not be causing issues at times -[2 1/2 to 3 feet apart].. The televes is what I am going to try first, if it doesn't do as well, I just put the other antennas back up, buy the Kitz KT 700 to replace the RCA, and play around with whatever TROPO oddballs I get in summer with the Televes pointed in other directions I am not the "return it" type!. 
thanks for the good advice.,, I am aware of the differences in those Datboss antennas.. Also aware that I will lose some strength on the 2 high VHF stations I get from 74 miles away... bob


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## Primestar31

steel guitar guy said:


> Also aware that I will lose some strength on the 2 high VHF stations I get from 74 miles away... bob


IF that ends up happening, AND it causes issues, you can add a Televes SmartKom to the mix, run the Dat Boss LR for just UHF, and keep the 30-2476 up there for your VHF. The SmartKom will allow you to run any combination of up to 3 antennas, and it has dynamic filtering that can mix and match add/delete RF channels from whatever antenna you choose. It'll balance all the signals, and has enough output to handle the largest house with a lot of tv's, etc.


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## steel guitar guy

Primestar31 said:


> IF that ends up happening, AND it causes issues, you can add a Televes SmartKom to the mix, run the Dat Boss LR for just UHF, and keep the 30-2476 up there for your VHF. The SmartKom will allow you to run any combination of up to 3 antennas, and it has dynamic filtering that can mix and match add/delete RF channels from whatever antenna you choose. It'll balance all the signals, and has enough output to handle the largest house with a lot of tv's, etc.


 Wow, was not aware of that product!.. I get 15 stations out of Elmira[all UHF] to the west using a little GE "attic/outdoor" antenna on the bottom of the main mast that the main antennas are on.. I use an RCA indoor signal booster from one of those flat RCA indoor window antennas, and get all the bars on the signal meter.. They are my strongest stations, but are repeats, so I put them on a TV my wife usually watches maybe 2 shows a week on OTA thats not hooked up to the main antenna.. It would be nice to have them all on each TV in the house, just because.. I will look into the price,, thanks for that heads up... bob


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## TelevesTech

steel guitar guy said:


> Wow, was not aware of that product!.. I get 15 stations out of Elmira[all UHF] to the west using a little GE "attic/outdoor" antenna on the bottom of the main mast that the main antennas are on.. I use an RCA indoor signal booster from one of those flat RCA indoor window antennas, and get all the bars on the signal meter.. They are my strongest stations, but are repeats, so I put them on a TV my wife usually watches maybe 2 shows a week on OTA thats not hooked up to the main antenna.. It would be nice to have them all on each TV in the house, just because.. I will look into the price,, thanks for that heads up... bob


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## LenL

If you are serious about the SmartKom you might want to check out this thread on the AVSFORUM: SmartKom New Technology For Combining Antennas & Arrays


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## LenL

I am combining a UHF only and VHF only antenna in my attic. I found the UHF only antenna does pick up some VHF and the VHF only antenna picks up some UHF. I found I get better reception when I use a simple passive UVSJ band filter with both antennas.


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## Primestar31

LenL said:


> I found I get better reception when I use a *simple passive UVSJ band filter* with both antennas.


That's exactly the proper way to handle it in the great majority of cases. Of course, those normally only are power passing on EITHER Uhf OR Vhf, not both. So, if your antenna has a built-in preamp that needs power, that can be an issue if you don't use a UVSJ that passes power on that side.


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## Prototype3a

If I could find a second 91xg, I would be tempted to play musical antennas and replace my 91xg with a Dat Boss LR... maybe.

In other news, I need to mount a pair of masts on a shingle roof ridge. I've been looking around for brackets or something that I can achor to the roof surfaces and then bolt some kind of structure to those brackets as I would like for the structure to be relatively easy to remove in the future if (when) the house is sold.

I've considered building a "gravity" mast support that just sits on the ridge so I could at least test my theories relating to that antenna location. I ran something like that at our house for a few years while I tested (smaller) antennas.

I wish that SmartKom had been released 6months sooner. I _just_ installed an AvantX for a friend and the SmartKom would have been a better solution since it can be mast mounted.


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## Prototype3a

Learned something today. 

My WUNL Stellar Labs big uhf yagi gets a cleaner signal when mounted lower on my mast. I suspect that when lower, the neighbor's trees, etc shield it from signals out of Roanoke better. FWIW, I'm talking about a difference of maybe 2ft between "completely useless signal" and "locks/decodes, but just barely". 

For my setup, the AvantX really has been somewhat of a game changer.


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## steel guitar guy

Got my Televes Datboss Mix LR Hih VHF/UHF today.. Put it together in maybe 45 minutes.. This box had fair directions unlike earlier ones.. Just need to watch what you are doing..
Snowing and cold, but I was dying to try it it... Laid it on the bed on did grab a few UHF stations out of Elmira. all 2 edge and 40 miles away, with a giant hill much higher than the one I am one.. Got good signals around 60% or so in trhe bedroom no booster.. Took it outside, with a rotted out, decrepit piece of ancient coax maybe 25 feet, and It scanned most of the Scranton and Binghamton stations with good signal maybe 60-70 % with me holding it in my hand on my porch no pole at all, and pointed directly into high tension lines no preamp being used, and those Scranton VHF stations are 75 miles from here. UHF stations came in well, WNEP v16 was close to 70% no preamp.. It did NOT get the very weak problematic UHF stations from Scranton v 38 and v 64, but they only come in with a preamp, and above the trees, and even then they are a headache at ANY time... When this is up 30 feet with new solid copper coax, and the pre amp running, I think it will be an excellent setup... The VHF gain seemed very close to what I get with the big Stellar Lab high VHF 30-2476 with an RCA preamp-at least according to what I saw today. I was worried that it would lack gain on VHF but it was absolutely great.. UHF I really won't know until its got some height , good coax, and the preamp online.. However, getting even a strong UHF station thats 2 edge 75 miles away at ground level is impressive, and this antenna is REALLY good from what I have seen in this very small, very unscientific, very ******* trial... Here's my report if anyone wants to see the stations I got strong even just laying it on the bed. bob







RabbitEars.Info


RabbitEars, where you can learn all about local, over-the-air TV channels.




www.rabbitears.info


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## Primestar31

steel guitar guy said:


> Got my Televes Datboss Mix LR Hih VHF/UHF today.. Put it together in maybe 45 minutes.. This box had fair directions unlike earlier ones.. Just need to watch what you are doing..
> Snowing and cold, but I was dying to try it it... Laid it on the bed on did grab a few UHF stations out of Elmira. all 2 edge and 40 miles away, with a giant hill much higher than the one I am one.. Got good signals around 60% or so in trhe bedroom no booster.. Took it outside, with a rotted out, decrepit piece of ancient coax maybe 25 feet, and It scanned most of the Scranton and Binghamton stations with good signal maybe 60-70 % with me holding it in my hand on my porch no pole at all, and pointed directly into high tension lines no preamp being used, and those Scranton VHF stations are 75 miles from here. UHF stations came in well, WNEP v16 was close to 70% no preamp.. It did NOT get the very weak problematic UHF stations from Scranton v 38 and v 64, but they only come in with a preamp, and above the trees, and even then they are a headache at ANY time... When this is up 30 feet with new solid copper coax, and the pre amp running, I think it will be an excellent setup... The VHF gain seemed very close to what I get with the big Stellar Lab high VHF 30-2476 with an RCA preamp-at least according to what I saw today. I was worried that it would lack gain on VHF but it was absolutely great.. UHF I really won't know until its got some height , good coax, and the preamp online.. However, getting even a strong UHF station thats 2 edge 75 miles away at ground level is impressive, and this antenna is REALLY good from what I have seen in this very small, very unscientific, very ***** trial... Here's my report if anyone wants to see the stations I got strong even just laying it on the bed. bob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RabbitEars.Info
> 
> 
> RabbitEars, where you can learn all about local, over-the-air TV channels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rabbitears.info


You kept saying: "without a preamp". The preamp is built into the dipole. Or did you mean you ran it without plugging in the preamp power supply? IF you meant an external preamp, you do NOT need one with this antenna. It would likely cause issues.


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## steel guitar guy

Primestar31 said:


> You kept saying: "without a preamp". The preamp is built into the dipole. Or did you mean you ran it without plugging in the preamp power supply? IF you meant an external preamp, you do NOT need one with this antenna. It would likely cause issues.


 I realize of course this antenna has a built in preamp... I should have been a little more clear in my explanation..The coax was SO awful[ got it from a free box at a garage sale!] that I would never try and run power through it to the preamp, so yes it was simply not plugged in and that bypass feature is wonderful.. I was expecting mediocre VHF gain, but it was very near what I get with the big Stellar labs unit, according to my signal strength meter on the TV which I admit is not that great..


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## Primestar31

steel guitar guy said:


> I realize of course this antenna has a built in preamp... I should have been a little more clear in my explanation..The coax was SO awful[ got it from a free box at a garage sale!] that I would never try and run power through it to the preamp, so yes it was simply not plugged in and that bypass feature is wonderful.. I was expecting mediocre VHF gain, but it was very near what I get with the big Stellar labs unit, according to my signal strength meter on the TV which I admit is not that great..


I suspected that's what you meant, but wanted to make sure. Wait until you plug it in, you'll be even more amazed...


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## TelevesTech

steel guitar guy said:


> I realize of course this antenna has a built in preamp... I should have been a little more clear in my explanation..The coax was SO awful[ got it from a free box at a garage sale!] that I would never try and run power through it to the preamp, so yes it was simply not plugged in and that bypass feature is wonderful.. I was expecting mediocre VHF gain, but it was very near what I get with the big Stellar labs unit, according to my signal strength meter on the TV which I admit is not that great..


It should work better with power to the preamp. The noise figure of the preamp is significantly lower than the insertion loss when unpowered.


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## LaserBeamSC

steel guitar guy said:


> Got my Televes Datboss Mix LR Hih VHF/UHF today.. Put it together in maybe 45 minutes.. This box had fair directions unlike earlier ones.. Just need to watch what you are doing..
> Snowing and cold, but I was dying to try it it... Laid it on the bed on did grab a few UHF stations out of Elmira. all 2 edge and 40 miles away, with a giant hill much higher than the one I am one.. Got good signals around 60% or so in trhe bedroom no booster.. Took it outside, with a rotted out, decrepit piece of ancient coax maybe 25 feet, and It scanned most of the Scranton and Binghamton stations with good signal maybe 60-70 % with me holding it in my hand on my porch no pole at all, and pointed directly into high tension lines no preamp being used, and those Scranton VHF stations are 75 miles from here. UHF stations came in well, WNEP v16 was close to 70% no preamp.. It did NOT get the very weak problematic UHF stations from Scranton v 38 and v 64, but they only come in with a preamp, and above the trees, and even then they are a headache at ANY time... When this is up 30 feet with new solid copper coax, and the pre amp running, I think it will be an excellent setup... The VHF gain seemed very close to what I get with the big Stellar Lab high VHF 30-2476 with an RCA preamp-at least according to what I saw today. I was worried that it would lack gain on VHF but it was absolutely great.. UHF I really won't know until its got some height , good coax, and the preamp online.. However, getting even a strong UHF station thats 2 edge 75 miles away at ground level is impressive, and this antenna is REALLY good from what I have seen in this very small, very unscientific, very ***** trial... Here's my report if anyone wants to see the stations I got strong even just laying it on the bed. bob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RabbitEars.Info
> 
> 
> RabbitEars, where you can learn all about local, over-the-air TV channels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rabbitears.info


Judging by that bleak RE report you are off to a good start particularly without the PS plugged in. I installed the new Hi VHF/UHF 149884 a few months ago and honestly I was skeptical about getting the VHF long distance stations but was pleasantly surprised to receive RF 7 and 10 pretty consistently day and night from 88 miles away on a 50’ tower. Sure there’s a few dropouts occasionally and with not so common weather conditions but overall very impressive not to mention the improvement on the UHF side with others stations 60 and 70 plus miles away 99% of the time. It’s somewhat been a hobby killer because there’s no longer the challenge of receiving the distant stations but the DXing is fun. Eventually the Lo VHF model 148383 will be installed. Merry Christmas!


----------



## steel guitar guy

oh yeah, forgot to mention,, it was a bear holding that thing up with one hand, and fumbling with the TV remote with the other hand while in a snowstorm, -so I only installed the upper UHF corner reflector. left the lower one off.. Half of its artillery not there, and it stood toe to toe with a dedicated high gain High VHF antenna, thats 30 feet in the air AND has a preamp and good solid copper coax.UHF gain seemed quite good, but I could not really give it a reasonable check.. All the " stronger " stations came in, and v16 was super strong as always, but several did not come in.. However ,the 91x antenna that is getting all the other UHF stations is 20 feet higher, on the roof in a clearing , is not pointing directly into a solid mile or more of dense tall woods, and has an RCA preamp.. I will know more about the UHF gain when its up on the roof, and when the preamp is in line..bob


----------



## steel guitar guy

TelevesTech said:


> It should work better with power to the preamp. The noise figure of the preamp is significantly lower than the insertion loss when unpowered.


 Understood... Just seeing what it can do unamplified.. As someone that at one time, had one of those MIC copies of this style antenna, I can say that what they are selling is bogus as you already know. Not even close.

I need break in this horrific upstate NY weather to put your product through its paces in correct fashion, with proper solid copper coax,, in a spot with less horrific obstructions only a few feet in front of it, and with some height to it in a known spot thats been consistent in signal strength over the years... I will of course let you know how it works ... At this point, I am quite optimistic... bob


----------



## steel guitar guy

I think what I am going to do is try not to wait too long[springtime] to install this 149884 on the roof with everything new, more height, new poles and guys,and new coax etc as I had planned ...

I think I'll wait until I get a reasonable day next few weeks,, say 40 and sunny with light or no wind, and just install this in the exact spot the 2 large Stellar Labs units are, same pole, same height, same solid copper coax thats currently in use . I will be replacing the 91x style UHF, the big SL Hi VHF, the RCA 2 output preamp, and 2 sections of copper core coax totaling 6 feet from the 2 antennas to the preamp with the 149884.. That will show how much better or worse it performs under the exact same conditions.. Kind of like Tyler does in his videos,, Yes, its unscientific, but as we know, it does work!.... I will post here with my crude observations when I have put up and tested it... bob


----------



## TelevesTech

steel guitar guy said:


> I think what I am going to do is try not to wait too long[springtime] to install this 149884 on the roof with everything new, more height, new poles and guys,and new coax etc as I had planned ...
> 
> I think I'll wait until I get a reasonable day next few weeks,, say 40 and sunny with light or no wind, and just install this in the exact spot the 2 large Stellar Labs units are, same pole, same height, same solid copper coax thats currently in use . I will be replacing the 91x style UHF, the big SL Hi VHF, the RCA 2 output preamp, and 2 sections of copper core coax totaling 6 feet from the 2 antennas to the preamp with the 149884.. That will show how much better or worse it performs under the exact same conditions.. Kind of like Tyler does in his videos,, Yes, its unscientific, but as we know, it does work!.... I will post here with my crude observations when I have put up and tested it... bob


Maybe show it out an upstairs window with the preamp on, see what happens


----------



## steel guitar guy

TelevesTech said:


> Maybe show it out an upstairs window with the preamp on, see what happens


 I can do that actually, but thats due west, and the only thing out there for hundreds of miles is the UHF stations I get from Elmira. They come in even with a very small antenna and no preamp.. Regardless of what the report says, they are my strongest most stable stations, and not a good indicator as to the UHF capabilities of the 149884..
To point to towards the very weak UHF stations out of Scranton to the south I need to get it outside and on the roof the way my place is set up.. If you saw the direction I get most of my signals from, you would shake your head that anything comes in here at all.. A tangle of powerlines, and impossibly huge pine trees, and when you get an opening, its taken up by cell towers.. I have noticed the 149884 seems very highly directional, even more so than the 91X knockoff..

Anyway, thanks for your interest, as well as your responses, and I really look forward to see if this Televes product can clean up 2 stations that are very problematic at my place.. Both v64/v38 Scranton] are transmitting from a much lower elevation than other Scranton stations and you can see the results out here in the deep fringe.. Those 2 are always on the edge, darting in and out coming and going. 

I am not expecting miracles, but am simply hoping the combination of an antenna that was designed for the UHF frequencies in use in 2022 not 2000, as well as a much better preamp, will give me just enough to lock those 2 stations down.. I don't even watch them that much, its more just "knowing they are there" thats driving this... anyway, thanks again for the interest, and for the very nice product your company produces... bob


----------



## steel guitar guy

We're supposed to get some warmer weather next week or so, hoping to get my LR Mix on the roof to test. A question- My mast is grounded, but I have never grounded my coax.. I really don't want to install an outdoor grounding block for it, I just don't want another connector in line, downstream of the preamp or not.. If i take a foot long piece of bare copper bell wire or similar, wrap it tightly around the coax fitting at the preamp, and then attach it to the mast with a clean sheet metal screw, would it be considered a suitable ground?... Never really understood the whole "the coax MUST be grounded" thing, but its not that big a deal if I have to take the mast,2 big antennas, guy wires etc out anyway.. I just don't want any connectors in line, a big part of the reason for going with 1 antenna with preamp at the dipole. Doing away with connections, lead in wires etc..
anyway, how important is grounding the coax itself, and will a small piece of bare copper fm the coax fitting to the grounded mast be sufficient? bob


----------



## richart

steel guitar guy said:


> anyway, how important is grounding the coax itself, and will a small piece of bare copper fm the coax fitting to the grounded mast be sufficient? bob


In my opinion, no, but you do what you want. The National Electric Code requires proper grounding which includes bonding all grounds together with your service entrance ground and proper grounding of the coaxial cable shield. While grounding will not be of much help if you take a direct lightning strike, it is very helpful when you have nearby lightning that induces voltages in your cabling. These voltages can surge to thousands of volts and the surges can wreak havoc on electronic equipment. You want to keep these dangerous voltages from entering your home.

Proper installation of a grounding block causes negligible signal loss. Instead of the inexpensive F connector grounding blocks, I use a properly grounded high quality 75 ohm PolyPhaser RF Surge Protector. I also use high quality compression fittings and fill the connectors with dielectric grease and then wrap the connections in silicone fusing tape to prevent water intrusion. I have never had a connection fail using dielectric grease and silicone fusing tape on either my TV or amateur radio antenna systems. I have unsealed connections over 10 years old and they still look as new as the day I made them.


----------



## nathill

I'm sure there is very little signal loss with a good quality grounding block, and I don't see how it would hurt anything if located AFTER the preamp. The signal should be plenty strong at that point to not be hurt by the block.


----------



## Prototype3a

What do you guys think about paralleling antennas using 300ohm twinlead (if I can find some) ?

I happened to find someone selling a used 91xg locally. My Stellar Labs antenna seems to outperform it by 2-3db which honestly surprised me but I'm also slightly suspicious that the balun is borked or something.


----------



## richart

My 91XG had a problem with the balun. Water infiltrated the enclosure and damaged the PC board. Antennas Direct replaced it at no charge. 

Someone stacked a pair of 91XGs with good results. I can't remember if they are on this forum or if they are over on TV Fool. If you can find their post I am sure it would be helpful to you.


----------



## LaserBeamSC

richart said:


> My 91XG had a problem with the balun. Water infiltrated the enclosure and damaged the PC board. Antennas Direct replaced it at no charge.
> 
> Someone stacked a pair of 91XGs with good results. I can't remember if they are on this forum or if they are over on TV Fool. If you can find their post I am sure it would be helpful to you.


A few years ago after the second large rain event with major signal loss, I recalled the TV Fool posts and contacted AD. They shipped a new balun assembly and the 91XG performance was like brand new once the assembly was replaced. 






Antennas Direct 91XG Water Infiltration of Balun? - TV Fool


Antennas Direct 91XG Water Infiltration of Balun? Antennas



forum.tvfool.com


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

richart said:


> My 91XG had a problem with the balun. Water infiltrated the enclosure and damaged the PC board. Antennas Direct replaced it at no charge.
> 
> Someone stacked a pair of 91XGs with good results. I can't remember if they are on this forum or if they are over on TV Fool. If you can find their post I am sure it would be helpful to you.


I also had the same problem with water intrusion in my balun on of my 91XGs. Antennas Direct sent a replacement out. They are more than good about that. We also had some it didn't have the water relief hole drilled. It's a matter of just drilling 1/8 inch hole or so in the lowest part of the balun box.

As far as combining them, Calaveras a respected member of this forum has done ganging 91XGs with low loss methods. I have done it also. But here are photos from his low-loss balun using an RG62 loop.




































I also emulated Calaveras, but his soldering looks much better than mine!


























At any rate you can overcome quite a bit of loss by doing this type of balun. This and ganging to or more 91XGs can net you a much better signal.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

richart said:


> My 91XG had a problem with the balun. Water infiltrated the enclosure and damaged the PC board. Antennas Direct replaced it at no charge.
> 
> Someone stacked a pair of 91XGs with good results. I can't remember if they are on this forum or if they are over on TV Fool. If you can find their post I am sure it would be helpful to you.


If you decide to gang your 91XGs, even if you don't use the low loss balun, you can still gang them with a simple combiner in reverse. Then put the preamp downstream. I've heard that there are some that use a preamp for each antenna and then combine them. But I've also heard that that raises the noise level up, so I never tried it.

Better to use a quarter wave transformer stub. I got a lot of information from Calaveras on how to do this and learn the hard way also. I thought it was a failure until I realized that I didn't have my antennas perfectly level and perfectly aimed. I did it by eye. That was a mistake, so I made a tool that could aim the antennas perfectly. A simple piece of Oak 1" x 1" did the trick. I then screwed a couple of 1" blocks to that long 1" x 1" and use it as a jig in the front and the back and came out with exactly the same aim and that made all the difference in the world.

After I figured out aiming was the problem, I got up high, re-aimed and leveled my two 91XGs.



















I first experimented with the Kitztech KT-200 with a quarter wave stub.












Here's the mock-up, trying to figure out how to seal the T connector Inside the Box, I used some coax weather boots and drill the holes to exactly the correct diameter to where they would seal without overcompressing them: 












Later I used my UHF quarter wave stub along with a VHF quarter wave stub, settled on the correct stub length for my channels and combine them with the Kitz Technologies KT-700.:











Here's the basic principle:










I made several length UHF quarter wave stubs and experimented with them intensely for a few days and settled on the 6" I think..., see the spectograms at the end of this post. I used RG58 and modified RG11 compression fittings to fit. That's a long story I can explain it sometime:










You can either use a simple tee with the RG58 stubs, I actually made RG11 fit the RG58 with a little solder so I could change them quickly and try different stubs. It turned out to be a good move.










This is the quicker way. Just gut out a combiner and solder your stingers (center conductor) together... I spent a lot of time mulling over which way I wanted to do it I finally settled on the removable stubs so I could experiment more:










In my experiments I found different length stubs had a different effects throughout the spectrum:


















This is an extremely good combination used everywhere, two 91XGs and two 30-2476s. You just have to have a good Tower with a thick strong mast. And properly tensioned guy wires with closed end eye hooks.


----------



## Calaveras

Prototype3a said:


> What do you guys think about paralleling antennas using 300ohm twinlead (if I can find some) ?


If you connect two 300 ohm antennas you end up with 150 ohms balanced. There's no easy way to get that to 75 unbalanced (RG6 coax). Four 300 ohm antennas in parallel are 75 ohms balanced which is easy to match to RG-6 requiring only a simple 1:1 balun. 

I stacked two 91XGs with almost no loss by replacing their baluns with a low loss coax balun, then connecting those together without a backwards splitter. That gives you 37.5 ohms. Next I used a 1/4 wave matching section of 50 ohm coax to match 37.5 ohms to 75 ohm coax. The matching section is 3.6" of RG223 for UHF.


----------



## Calaveras

ChiwaukeeOTA said:


> Here's the basic principle:
> 
> View attachment 3379741
> 
> 
> I made several length UHF quarter wave stubs and experimented with them intensely for a few days and settled on the 6" I think..., see the spectograms at the end of this post. I used RG58 and modified RG11 compression fittings to fit. That's a long story I can explain it sometime:


Something is wrong if you're using 6" of RG58 as the matching section on UHF. The correct length is 3.6" for the repacked UHF TV band. A 6" piece of RG58 is no different than a random length piece of coax.


----------



## steel guitar guy

Put my new Televes LR Mix up about 23 feet AGL... To make a long story short, after an hour or so of testing , I took it down, disassembled and boxed it carefully and am sending it back.. I dunno, it was ok I guess, but I think it was not going to do any more than what was already up there on UHF, and probably not quite as well as I already have on VHF.. When I first tried it out in a snowstorm, before Christmas, I was impressed, but for reasons i will NEVER understand, some of my best TV reception is in the teeth of a sideways blizzard.. Its always been that way here.
Yesterday was a day when all my signals were somewhat below the norm here, on UHF and VHF as well... Its a good antenna I guess, I won't say a single bad thing.. I guess i wanted a startling revelation, and to be amazed and blown out of the water at the stupendous gain.. It just wasn't to be...

Sticking to my original plan Keeping the 91X and Stellar labs High VHF, raising them another 7 feet, and replacing the coax lead in wires both at 3 feet, making sure they are solid copper, and equal length, and putting up a better quality, lower noise preamp than the RCA thats up there.. I would like to get more UHF gain than the 24 dB on the RCA, but not many out there with much higher UHF gain than that, so I might just have to be happy with a good low noise figure... I was thinking KT 700, or the televes, not sure yet,, so, its back to square one I guess.. Any preamp suggestions would be a big help... bob


----------



## TelevesTech

steel guitar guy said:


> Put my new Televes LR Mix up about 23 feet AGL... To make a long story short, after an hour or so of testing , I took it down, disassembled and boxed it carefully and am sending it back.. I dunno, it was ok I guess, but I think it was not going to do any more than what was already up there on UHF, and probably not quite as well as I already have on VHF.. When I first tried it out in a snowstorm, before Christmas, I was impressed, but for reasons i will NEVER understand, some of my best TV reception is in the teeth of a sideways blizzard.. Its always been that way here.
> Yesterday was a day when all my signals were somewhat below the norm here, on UHF and VHF as well... Its a good antenna I guess, I won't say a single bad thing.. I guess i wanted a startling revelation, and to be amazed and blown out of the water at the stupendous gain.. It just wasn't to be...
> 
> Sticking to my original plan Keeping the 91X and Stellar labs High VHF, raising them another 7 feet, and replacing the coax lead in wires both at 3 feet, making sure they are solid copper, and equal length, and putting up a better quality, lower noise preamp than the RCA thats up there.. I would like to get more UHF gain than the 24 dB on the RCA, but not many out there with much higher UHF gain than that, so I might just have to be happy with a good low noise figure... I was thinking KT 700, or the televes, not sure yet,, so, its back to square one I guess.. Any preamp suggestions would be a big help... bob


Did you receive what you normally receive with the two antenna setup?


----------



## ughAudio

jamesm113 said:


> This was the one: [Hot Item] Outdoor VHF TV Antenna (V-13h)
> 
> Didn't see the min order of 1,000 on your screen shot


that was the bulk purchase for distributors like MCM. Primestar31 helped out with the direct/purchase link (which I forgot to include) above for $23!


----------



## ughAudio

rabbit73 said:


> *Using the Comparison Feature of the RTL-SDR Scanner Software*
> 
> This comparison is between two VHF-High antennas for the reception of RF channels 7 and 11.
> 
> View attachment 3369685
> 
> 
> The first antenna is a VHF-High Quad Loop. The second antenna is the VHF-High Folded Dipole of a GE 29884. The two antennas are in slightly different locations. The Loop is against an inside wall; the 29884 is aimed out a window. There are trees in the signal paths.
> 
> I did a scan for each antenna and then saved each .rfs file in a folder separate from the Scanner software folder.
> 
> View attachment 3369226
> 
> 
> View attachment 3369227
> 
> 
> The loop looks better for channel 11; the 29884 folded dipole looks better for channel 7, but the SNR of the high end of channel 7 is reduced by multipath which will make its reception more difficult. Channel 11 is the one I need the most. My TV tuner will tell me what works best.
> 
> I then combined each saved .rfs file in the Comparison screen:
> 
> View attachment 3369229
> 
> 
> Then I added the Difference between the two scans:
> 
> View attachment 3369230
> 
> 
> On a later day, I made some signal measurements:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Signal Measurements of two VHF-High Antennas
> Channel 7 (21.1) TBN
> SONY TV              Signal Level
> Signal    SNR     Errors         Meter
> Strength    dB                  dBmV   dBm
> 
> Loop   26      15-17   30-100      -15.7  -64.5
> 29884  29      17-20     0         -12.7  -61.5
> 
> Channel 11 (13.1) ABC
> Loop   29       26       0         -8.8   -57.6
> 29884  26      21-23     0         -12.0  -60.8
> Equipment used:
> SONY TV KDL40R350D
> Sadelco DisplayMax 800 Signal Level Meter which
> takes the average of 49 measurements as it scans
> across the channel.
> 
> On another evening, I made some measurements with an SDRPlay RSP1A and a SiliconDust Connect HDHR4-US:
> 
> View attachment 3371572
> 
> 
> View attachment 3371573
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 3370731
> 
> 
> View attachment 3370748
> 
> 
> For improved reception of Channel 7, a better location for the antenna would be required. That isn't available to me in a retirement home.
> 
> View attachment 3370752
> 
> 
> Some Attachments added just for fun.


GOOD to see you return to the forum, @rabbit73.

Wishing you good health for the new year, and for many years beyond.

Regards,
ughAudio


----------



## jkeldo

steel guitar guy said:


> Put my new Televes LR Mix up about 23 feet AGL... To make a long story short, after an hour or so of testing , I took it down, disassembled and boxed it carefully and am sending it back.. I dunno, it was ok I guess, but I think it was not going to do any more than what was already up there on UHF, and probably not quite as well as I already have on VHF.. When I first tried it out in a snowstorm, before Christmas, I was impressed, but for reasons i will NEVER understand, some of my best TV reception is in the teeth of a sideways blizzard.. Its always been that way here.
> Yesterday was a day when all my signals were somewhat below the norm here, on UHF and VHF as well... Its a good antenna I guess, I won't say a single bad thing.. I guess i wanted a startling revelation, and to be amazed and blown out of the water at the stupendous gain.. It just wasn't to be...
> 
> Sticking to my original plan Keeping the 91X and Stellar labs High VHF, raising them another 7 feet, and replacing the coax lead in wires both at 3 feet, making sure they are solid copper, and equal length, and putting up a better quality, lower noise preamp than the RCA thats up there.. I would like to get more UHF gain than the 24 dB on the RCA, but not many out there with much higher UHF gain than that, so I might just have to be happy with a good low noise figure... I was thinking KT 700, or the televes, not sure yet,, so, its back to square one I guess.. Any preamp suggestions would be a big help... bob


More gain may just cause overload. The RCA does pretty well for me and has never been an issue as to overloading. The WInegard LNA-200 also works well on my other antenna.

You probably should have given your new setup a little more time as conditions change day to day. At my location in Northeast Ohio, when it starts getting really cold in the winter (lower than 20 degrees) I get much better reception from the 60 mile stations some that I don't always receive consistently. The one station that is 20 miles away has better SNR's as well. Once the temperatures start getting closer to 30-40 degrees, the readings go back to their "normal" points which I know from experience. Depending on when you put it up, temperatures may have been one issue. As to height, lower is sometimes better so raising your existing antennas may or may not help even though I recall you're in a low spot. I would try the new one again before sending it back.


----------



## steel guitar guy

TelevesTech said:


> Did you receive what you normally receive with the two antenna setup?


 No, but to be fair, the main setup was about 6 feet higher up, and the signals in this area are very sketchy.. It was reasonably close to what the main setup got, and perhaps that extra 6 feet would have made all the difference... The 149884 has better gain on UHF than VHF which I was expecting, but it was not fair of me to compare it's VHF gain with a large dedicated High VHF unit.. To be honest,.I might not have given it a fair chance, but it is what it is.. I am skeptical that it will get me where I want to go.. Only greatly increased height will do that in this area.. It is a well built antenna, quality throughout, but I just think I had unreasonable expectations for it.. There just is not that much to catch up there at my place. I have given up trying to get a better antenna, I am just going to try and improve the setup I have that supports the antenna.....bob


----------



## steel guitar guy

jkeldo said:


> More gain may just cause overload. The RCA does pretty well for me and has never been an issue as to overloading. The WInegard LNA-200 also works well on my other antenna.
> 
> You probably should have given your new setup a little more time as conditions change day to day. At my location in Northeast Ohio, when it starts getting really cold in the winter (lower than 20 degrees) I get much better reception from the 60 mile stations some that I don't always receive consistently. The one station that is 20 miles away has better SNR's as well. Once the temperatures start getting closer to 30-40 degrees, the readings go back to their "normal" points which I know from experience. Depending on when you put it up, temperatures may have been one issue. As to height, lower is sometimes better so raising your existing antennas may or may not help even though I recall you're in a low spot. I would try the new one again before sending it back.


There is NO way any preamp can overload here.. There is not much signal here. most of my stations are negative NM, and the very strongest according to the reports I have is 29 or so... bob


----------



## jkeldo

steel guitar guy said:


> There is NO way any preamp can overload here.. There is not much signal here. most of my stations are negative NM, and the very strongest according to the reports I have is 29 or so... bob


I understand your weak signals but some preamps can cause issues with a tuner if too much noise is introduced through too much amplification from my understanding like some of the older Radio Shack models that had a boost mode.


----------



## Primestar31

steel guitar guy said:


> There is NO way any preamp can overload here.. There is not much signal here. most of my stations are negative NM, and the very strongest according to the reports I have is 29 or so... bob


I installed a 30' tower 2 FEET to the West of my original well pipe mast antenna. Just because I wanted to leave that up and running during the week something it took me to get the tower installed. Turned out that 2 FEET that I originally scoped out for the well pipe mast, was the only real best spot for my antenna system.

The difference of that 2 feet lateral move, is *6dB* between the two masts when installing the antennas at the same height. Believe me, I tried every combination you can imagine. That's because of extensive tree cover owned by neighbors that I have to aim through. The well pipe mast is at a average 6dB hot spot relative to the station tower arc I'm aiming at. I started with an XG91 and a AC Y10-7-13 antenna combined with a standard UVSJ, and used a Kitztech KT-200 preamp just for the Xg91.

Also, I discovered my signal layers are at 15' height intervals, with much less signal in between

So *yes*, perhaps that extra 6 feet higher, and on your original mast would have made all the difference for you.


----------



## ughAudio

This qiohaua-stellarlabs is interesting....










Got a break in the weather so tried this temporary today on the roof towards NYC: not bad for $23 and change + $10 ship. Picks up RF8 at 40 or so miles strong; RF7-11-12 at 60+ miles on the weaker side but solid/no breakups for the last 24Hr.

Regarding "a paperclip can be an antenna", receiving Philly's RF6 and 13 from a rear corner, RF4 from the other rear corner, as well as most of the UHF channels received with our main antenna.

ATSC/RF with metal and reflections are unpredictable.


----------



## Calaveras

steel guitar guy said:


> I guess i wanted a startling revelation, and to be amazed and blown out of the water at the stupendous gain.. It just wasn't to be...


I've tried to convince people for years that there's no such thing as what I call "a magic antenna." Two antennas of roughly the same size will have about the same gain unless one of the antennas is seriously deficient in some way. Looks like you've run into this. Once you have a decent outdoor antenna it's really hard to make much improvement.



steel guitar guy said:


> Sticking to my original plan Keeping the 91X and Stellar labs High VHF, raising them another 7 feet, and replacing the coax lead in wires both at 3 feet, making sure they are solid copper, and equal length, and putting up a better quality, lower noise preamp than the RCA thats up there.. I would like to get more UHF gain than the 24 dB on the RCA, but not many out there with much higher UHF gain than that, so I might just have to be happy with a good low noise figure... I was thinking KT 700, or the televes, not sure yet,, so, its back to square one I guess.. Any preamp suggestions would be a big help... bob


I ran some tests here raising/lowering antennas on my crank-up tower. 7' barely makes any difference at all but I'm not looking through any trees or buildings. 30' makes a difference.

Unless you have a long coax run (>250') 24 dB gain should be enough. System Noise Figure is what counts and increasing the gain beyond the optimum value will not improve that.


----------



## Calaveras

Primestar31 said:


> The difference of that 2 feet lateral move, is *6dB* between the two masts when installing the antennas at the same height. Believe me, I tried every combination you can imagine. That's because of extensive tree cover owned by neighbors that I have to aim through.


This is multipath in action. Once I tried moving an antennas around a friend's property watching on a portable DTV. Signals varied wildly over short distances. Unfortunately what was optimum for one station wasn't optimum for the next station. There was no best location for all stations.


----------



## Primestar31

Calaveras said:


> This is multipath in action. Once I tried moving an antennas around a friend's property watching on a portable DTV. Signals varied wildly over short distances. Unfortunately what was optimum for one station wasn't optimum for the next station. There was no best location for all stations.


Exactly. It's defractive reception, which is what Steel Guitar Guy is dealing with. Anything goes when you are dealing with that situation, and it can take a long time, and trying lots of things before you are able to figure out your best case / most stable setup.


----------



## ChiwaukeeOTA

steel guitar guy said:


> No, but to be fair, the main setup was about 6 feet higher up, and the signals in this area are very sketchy.. It was reasonably close to what the main setup got, and perhaps that extra 6 feet would have made all the difference... The 149884 has better gain on UHF than VHF which I was expecting, but it was not fair of me to compare it's VHF gain with a large dedicated High VHF unit.. To be honest,.I might not have given it a fair chance, but it is what it is.. I am skeptical that it will get me where I want to go.. Only greatly increased height will do that in this area.. It is a well built antenna, quality throughout, but I just think I had unreasonable expectations for it.. There just is not that much to catch up there at my place. I have given up trying to get a better antenna, I am just going to try and improve the setup I have that supports the antenna.....bob


"To make a long story short, after an hour or so of testing , I took it down, disassembled and boxed it carefully and am sending it back." 

After only an hour of testing? 

So why don't you keep the 149884 or at least a few more days and combine it with your VHF ? Or put it up higher where you had the other antennas? At least compare apples to apples height wise.

Am I correct and understanding that it got the same UHF performance as Stellar labs 30- 2370 combined? 6 ft lower on the mast ? That alone to me is a reason to keep it up there for less wind load. One 149884 is going to be much less wind load then two of the X elements.

Sounds to me like you just gave up too early. Trying to beat the return window?


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## jamesm113

ughAudio said:


> This qiohaua-stellarlabs is interesting....
> 
> View attachment 3380050
> 
> 
> Got a break in the weather so tried this temporary today on the roof towards NYC: not bad for $23 and change + $10 ship. Picks up RF8 at 40 or so miles strong; RF7-11-12 at 60+ miles on the weaker side but solid/no breakups for the last 24Hr.
> 
> Regarding "a paperclip can be an antenna", receiving Philly's RF6 and 13 from a rear corner, RF4 from the other rear corner, as well as most of the UHF channels received with our main antenna.
> 
> ATSC/RF with metal and reflections are unpredictable.


If you feel like experimenting you can try repurposing the 2 reflectors as directors to get a little boost for channels 12-14. See HiVHF 9-El FD-Yagi, Stellar Labs 30-2475


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## Primestar31

jamesm113 said:


> If you feel like experimenting you can try repurposing the 2 reflectors as directors to get a little boost for channels 12-14. See HiVHF 9-El FD-Yagi, Stellar Labs 30-2475


I provided those measurements to Holl_ands over on the digitalhome Canadian forum years ago. My posting id over there is MikeBear. However, that's for the shorter Stellar Labs VHF antenna. Though perhaps the larger one can still benefit from his 4nec2 analysis, as it appears to be a straight scale-up of the smaller one.


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## ChiwaukeeOTA

Primestar31 said:


> I provided those measurements to Holl_ands over on the digitalhome Canadian forum years ago. My posting id over there is MikeBear. However, that's for the shorter Stellar Labs VHF antenna. Though perhaps the larger one can still benefit from his 4nec2 analysis, as it appears to be a straight scale-up of the smaller one.


Holl_ands Made a brief come back over on Canadian digital home forum to explain him and his wife were both down for medical reasons and then he was having trouble with his computer. I don't think he has been back since he mentioned those things. It would be nice if he could come back and do some more modeling. He was the best. And shared his work willingly.

I always wondered why he never modeled the 30-2476 and only modeled the 30-2475. Maybe that explains it, that nobody had given him the measurements. Hell, I would even send him one of mine still in the box!


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## LenL

Multipath was mentioned so I have a stupid question. If you are having issues with multipath impacting reception is there anyway to mitigate it? Just wondering since there seems to be solutions and devices to fix a number of reception problems.


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## Primestar31

LenL said:


> Multipath was mentioned so I have a stupid question. If you are having issues with multipath impacting reception is there anyway to mitigate it? Just wondering since there seems to be solutions and devices to fix a number of reception problems.


There's many things you can do: get a more powerful, much sharper aim yagi, and spend a bunch of time trying to find a good hotspot/hole that works best. Of course, a spectrum analyzer would help immensely on getting it dialed in much faster, and with less experimentation. Wait for ATSC 3.0, which isn't susceptible to multipath,

If it's trees causing it, and you own them, you can chop them down. I had a trash maple tree that regrew from a stump with 4 main trunks. It was located about 50' in front of my antenna system, and had spindly branches at around 30' that caused a LOT of trouble. Hard to believe that little bit could be so troublesome. Neighbor had somebody come over to remove a tree for him. I walked over and asked if when they were done, could they cut mine down for $50 CASH. They did, and that got rid of a BIG amount of multipath. The rest of my tree issues are neighbors trees much further out, and not much you can do there except pray for them to remove them.


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## LenL

If it is trees then the chop them down solution is not feasible. I was wondering if anyone made a device that dealt with multipath seeing as there are devices that fix interference from FM, 4G, 5G etc.. I gather some tuners handle it better than others so it seems to reason that there could be a device to deal with it?

Since signal strength is 100% I don't know if a larger antenna is the answer. The problem only occurs during the summer months on select UHF stations at the high RF end.


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## Primestar31

LenL said:


> I was wondering if anyone made a device that dealt with multipath seeing as there are devices that fix interference from FM, 4G, 5G etc..


Yes they did, it's called ATSC 3.0 OFDM. There's NO other "devices" to mitigate multipath. IF somebody could invent one, he'd end up a billionaire. It's the 8vsb part of 1.0 that's the culprit.

Though it IS true that some tuners are less sensitive to multipath than others.


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## rabbit73

This is what happens to my CH16 signal when it comes through trees on a windy day:










Video:

Download and play now: (I use VLC Media Player)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ig3va499k237ayu
/CH16TreeInPath4.mp4?dl=0

Download now, play later:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ig3va499k237ayu/CH16TreeInPath4.mp4?dl=1


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## jamesm113

ChiwaukeeOTA said:


> I always wondered why he never modeled the 30-2476 and only modeled the 30-2475. Maybe that explains it, that nobody had given him the measurements. Hell, I would even send him one of mine still in the box!


Here's the link for the 30-2476:





HiVHF 13El FD-Yagi - Stellar Labs 302476


Hi-VHF 13-Element Folded Dipole Yagi, including 4 Reflector Rods, MCM Stellar Labs 30-2476, analyzed using 4nec2. Dimensions were provided by user [majortom]. HiVHF Raw Gain = 9.8 to 12.5 dBi, F/B & F/R Ratio = 15 to 25 to 17 dB [Good to Excellent] and SWR (300-ohms) is Under 2.7 [Excellent]...




imageevent.com





Can't find any experiments with it though


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## ChiwaukeeOTA

jamesm113 said:


> Here's the link for the 30-2476:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HiVHF 13El FD-Yagi - Stellar Labs 302476
> 
> 
> Hi-VHF 13-Element Folded Dipole Yagi, including 4 Reflector Rods, MCM Stellar Labs 30-2476, analyzed using 4nec2. Dimensions were provided by user [majortom]. HiVHF Raw Gain = 9.8 to 12.5 dBi, F/B & F/R Ratio = 15 to 25 to 17 dB [Good to Excellent] and SWR (300-ohms) is Under 2.7 [Excellent]...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> imageevent.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't find any experiments with it though


Thanks for that link. Yeah, maybe that's what it was he didn't do any experiments? Thanks for refreshing my memory it's coming back to me now.


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## steel guitar guy

Any benefit to putting a better balun on the cheap MIC antennas?... They have been up probably 5 or so years, and when taken down I was thinking of ditching the original built in baluns as well as replacing the coax leads from both antennas to the pre amp.... Any issues with taking them off and replacing them with a traditional stye balun?...


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## Primestar31

steel guitar guy said:


> Any benefit to putting a better balun on the cheap MIC antennas?... They have been up probably 5 or so years, and when taken down I was thinking of ditching the original built in baluns as well as replacing the coax leads from both antennas to the pre amp.... Any issues with taking them off and replacing them with a traditional stye balun?...


It certainly can't hurt to try it. Some baluns are WAY better than other baluns.


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## steel guitar guy

Is there any tricky soldering involved, or something I need to be aware of, or is it pretty straightforward? the build quality of the SL 91 X clone is pretty flimsy, but the 30-2476 seems pretty stout, but they look like they both have the same balun setup, and I imagine it was the cheapest one they could possibly source when assembling these antennas... I only want to do this one more time, and then call it good, and whatever stations I get, I get...


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## Primestar31

steel guitar guy said:


> Is there any tricky soldering involved, or something I need to be aware of, or is it pretty straightforward? the build quality of the SL 91 X clone is pretty flimsy, but the 30-2476 seems pretty stout, but they look like they both have the same balun setup, and I imagine it was the cheapest one they could possibly source when assembling these antennas... I only want to do this one more time, and then call it good, and whatever stations I get, I get...


Soldering for what? Making a lossless balun like posted upthread? You have to be pretty good at soldering to be able to do it, AND, you MUST find coax with a solid copper center wire AND copper shield. You can't solder aluminum, which is what the majority of coax shields are. Even steel is practically impossible to solder.

IF you can find that sort of coax, then you'll need a soldering GUN, or the like that puts out a lot of heat quickly. You won't easily be able to use a small soldering pencil, it'll never heat it up enough to make the solder flow. Lightly sand the areas to be soldered, and pre-tin them with a light coat of solder first.


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## steel guitar guy

No I simply was wondering how the integrated balun is attached in these MIC antennas, and do you simply take it off, and solder the new cylindrical balun in place to existing wires or terminals , or is there a trick to it that I need to know about?, I just want to know before i start removing things and possibly ripping out some thin wires that I was not aware of.. bob


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## Primestar31

steel guitar guy said:


> No I simply was wondering how the integrated balun is attached in these MIC antennas, and do you simply take it off, and solder the new cylindrical balun in place to existing wires or terminals , or is there a trick to it that I need to know about?, I just want to know before i start removing things and possibly ripping out some thin wires that I was not aware of.. bob


Usually it's a small circuit board balun, and the metal dipole "wings" are screwed to terminal connections on the board. There's a few different methods, and you'll only know once you open up the case and look it over. You might be able to cut the traces with a X-acto knife, and scrape them to solder a regular balun to them.


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## Prototype3a

I have a few of the Stellar Labs "MIC" antennas and IIRC, the baluns were simply "bolted" in with ring terminals. I have one of those "new" Channel Master baluns coming and I may swap that onto the 91xg I recently picked up, used.

I've been looking into playing around with that NEC software similar to Hollands since it seems to be one of the only free ways to simulate antenna designs.


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## Prototype3a

Calaveras said:


> I stacked two 91XGs with almost no loss by replacing their baluns with a low loss coax balun, then connecting those together without a backwards splitter. That gives you 37.5 ohms. Next I used a 1/4 wave matching section of 50 ohm coax to match 37.5 ohms to 75 ohm coax. The matching section is 3.6" of RG223 for UHF.


I think I understand the first half but I have no idea how a 1/4wave piece of 50ohm coax acts as a matching transformer or whatever.

Could I make a coax balun to convert a 300ohm(?) "tv" antenna to 50ohm? I've been on the hunt for a 50ohm ~450mhz yagi but I had the thought a bit ago that maybe I could just convert one of my spare TV antennas to 50ohm instead by replacing the balun.


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## ChiwaukeeOTA

Calaveras said:


> Something is wrong if you're using 6" of RG58 as the matching section on UHF. The correct length is 3.6" for the repacked UHF TV band. A 6" piece of RG58 is no different than a random length piece of coax.


Well, when you and I first talked about using RG8, your calculations were for poly filled RG8. The RG8 I used was a foam filled so we recalculated for that. The stubs we supposed to be slightly longer. And also, I think the 6" was the overall length of the stub including the RG11 connectors I made. All I had was my RTL SDR Spectrograms but, they _seem_ to show higher signal strengths _on some stations_ as you can observe in the spectrograms.

However, since you have planted the seeds of doubt in my head, I plan to revisit the 1/4 transformer stub again with more sophisticated meters that I did not have at the time. I can now use MER & SNR to check my results. This time I will actually have no pressure to get it done like I had during Covid. And I will test those lengths again.

I want to reach into Milwaukee and Chicago and catch a few LP stations as "targets" and will be doing some ganging and quad stacking etc... I have yet to try the 300 ohm quad stack yet.


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## Prototype3a

Channel Master shipped me 3 baluns... for the price of one ?


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## Primestar31

Prototype3a said:


> Channel Master shipped me 3 baluns... for the price of one ?


Score! Bonus! Since they charge so much, you got a great deal.


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## ota.dt.man

Prototype3a said:


> Channel Master shipped me 3 baluns... for the price of one ?


It's a deal!


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## Prototype3a

Well, I smashed open the balun on one of my Stellar Labs 30-2365 not-43xg antennas and well, it is pretty well glued and spider webbed shut. They're definitely not designed to be "serviced". There are some screws inside that hold few parts together but it is mostly the glue and tight fitting 3-piece clamshell.

The side with the F connector is glued and plastic snapped on. I basically had to cut around the perimeter and then pry with a screwdriver to break it free. The other side is held on with a pair of small screws and glue.

It is raining and dark out so I'll have to inspect the others.... tomorrow?


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## Prototype3a

Bah. More rain today.

Anyway.. this is the pcb balun inside the box on the Stellar Labs.










I looked at some photos and the bigger not-91xg may have the exact same unit on it. Here it is after hacking the CM balun onto it.


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## Primestar31

Prototype3a said:


> Bah. More rain today.
> 
> Anyway.. this is the pcb balun inside the box on the Stellar Labs.
> View attachment 3382665
> 
> 
> 
> I looked at some photos and the bigger not-91xg may have the exact same unit on it. Here it is after hacking the CM balun onto it.
> View attachment 3382666


Maybe you should put a wad of '*Coax Seal*' over those screws? It's a waterproof plastic rubber, that can be formed and put over connections, and in the future if it needs to be removed it can be with little problems if any.









Tape for Fittings Hand Moldable Plastic 60" Long Single Roll Fittings 1/2" Wide 3/32" Inch Thick Sealant Tape Universal Waterproof Non-Conducting Roll Wire Wrap, Weather Tight Sealing Cable - - Amazon.com


Tape for Fittings Hand Moldable Plastic 60" Long Single Roll Fittings 1/2" Wide 3/32" Inch Thick Sealant Tape Universal Waterproof Non-Conducting Roll Wire Wrap, Weather Tight Sealing Cable - - Amazon.com



www.amazon.com


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## Prototype3a

Primestar31 said:


> Maybe you should put a wad of '*Coax Seal*' over those screws?


Antenna is upside down in that photo, so I'm not terribly worried about it getting wet and shorting.


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## Primestar31

Prototype3a said:


> Antenna is upside down in that photo, so I'm not terribly worried about it getting wet and shorting.


It can RUST, as seen in antennas over the years. That can cause connection issues.


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## Calaveras

ChiwaukeeOTA said:


> Well, when you and I first talked about using RG8, your calculations were for poly filled RG8. The RG8 I used was a foam filled so we recalculated for that. The stubs we supposed to be slightly longer. And also, I think the 6" was the overall length of the stub including the RG11 connectors I made. All I had was my RTL SDR Spectrograms but, they _seem_ to show higher signal strengths _on some stations_ as you can observe in the spectrograms.


The Belden catalog says the velocity factor for foam RG-8 is 78%. A quarter wave matching section would be 4.27". 6" is too long even if the velocity factor was 100%. The theory is not wrong. When the theory conflicts with what you're measuring then you need to find out why the constructed item doesn't match the theory. If a longer piece of coax seems to work, it may be that it is not optimally performing. To do it right you need construct two 4:1 coaxial baluns, load them with 300 ohms, combine them with the 1/4 wave matching section and measure the VSWR with a 75 ohm directional coupler. The VSWR curve should be centered near 539 MHz. If you can't measure it then the best you can do is build it according to the formulas and use it as is.


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## Prototype3a

Primestar31 said:


> It can RUST, as seen in antennas over the years. That can cause connection issues.


I guess I could replace any steel hardware with stainless...

For now, I just want to test the performance. I was about to go fiddle with some stuff since the rain stopped but then I remembered that my system is busy with recordings. :-/


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## Prototype3a

Well, from my testing, it seems that that CM balun is worse than the factory 91xg pcb. I'm pretty sure mine has the "old" balun as it did not appear to have any drain holes or anything.










It also seems like those cheap Stellar Labs yagis are VERY hard to beat for performance/$$. If the big SL yagi goes on sale, I'll likely buy a few of them. I sort of wonder if the SL yagis are tuned to have peak gain at a lower frequency than the 91xg.


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## Calaveras

I decided I should measure the VSWR of my lossless combiner to see if it was working as expected. The first attachment is the return loss using a 2-way splitter with the guts removed and wires put in its place. That was not the display I was looking for. There was no dip in the middle and the VSWR ran from 2.0 to 2.9. Not great. Time to look harder at it.

I thought that the wires inside the splitter might be too long. I got rid of the splitter and soldered the two antenna leads in parallel and connected the 1/4 wave 50 ohm matching section together with as short of wires as possible. I checked the VSWR again and got a much better VSWR with a dip in the middle like it is supposed to have. See second attachment below.

If I can figure out a way to waterproof it, I'll put it up on the tower and see if it makes an improvement.

Also attached are pictures of the test setup with the HP 75 ohm directional coupler, close-up of the coax cable soldered together and the combiner and coax baluns with 300 ohm resistors as dummy loads.

2-way Splitter with innards replaced with wires.










Combiner with shortened leads. Much lower VSWR with dip in the center.









Combiner










Combiner + 4:1 baluns under test










Spectrum Analyzer Test Setup


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## ChiwaukeeOTA

Calaveras said:


> I decided I should measure the VSWR of my lossless combiner to see if it was working as expected.
> Combiner + 4:1 baluns under test
> View attachment 3383322


So you are revamping your lossless combiners? That's extremely interesting. I was trying to click on the pics, and expand the zoom to get the closest view. I was mostly interested in how you soldered the 1/4 wave transformer onto the balun / leads. 

I'll try to zoom on another PC later. Are you still using RG223? 

The lowest photo, will you go with that design when testing proves it out and after water proofing or shorten the RG6 sections? 

Do keep us in the loop. Would love to see the test results on your new and improved combiner.


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## rabbit73

ChiwaukeeOTA said:


> So you are revamping your lossless combiners? That's extremely interesting. I was trying to click on the pics, and expand the zoom to get the closest view. I was mostly interested in how you soldered the 1/4 wave transformer onto the balun / leads.
> 
> I'll try to zoom on another PC later. Are you still using RG223?
> 
> The lowest photo, will you go with that design when testing proves it out and after water proofing or shorten the RG6 sections?
> 
> Do keep us in the loop. Would love to see the test results on your new and improved combiner.


I also had trouble with that particular image. When using the Edge browser, it shows right away. When using my usual Firefox browser, I had to click on refresh for the 1/4 wave matching section (AKA 1/4 wave matching transformer) to show. It would also show in Reply for his post using Firefox.



















Part of the problem is that this Forum saves an attachment image as an AVIF file.










If you try to save the image, it will save as an AVIF file, which is hard to open. You can copy the image, paste into Paint, and save as whatever file you want. You can also use PrtScr and paste into Paint.

As you said, that image is important to show the soldering method. Closeup:










Very good test setup by Chuck. The only thing I wonder about is how close the impedance of the antenna feed point is to 300 ohms.

Rather than calling it a 1/4 wave stub, I prefer to call it a 1/4 wave matching section or a 1/4 wave matching transformer. When used as a stub to make a notch, the 1/4 wave section is usually the same impedance as the main feed line. When used as a matching section, it has an impedance that is between the 2 different impedance values to be matched together for low loss. In this case, it is 53 ohms for matching 37.5 ohms to 75 ohms.

Impedance Transformation with Quarter-Wave Lines



















You might be able to use a smaller diameter 52 ohm coax for the matching section than RG-8. If it has solid PE dielectric, the velocity factor would be more like 0.66.


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## Calaveras

ChiwaukeeOTA said:


> So you are revamping your lossless combiners? That's extremely interesting. I was trying to click on the pics, and expand the zoom to get the closest view. I was mostly interested in how you soldered the 1/4 wave transformer onto the balun / leads.
> 
> I'll try to zoom on another PC later. Are you still using RG223?
> 
> The lowest photo, will you go with that design when testing proves it out and after water proofing or shorten the RG6 sections?
> 
> Do keep us in the loop. Would love to see the test results on your new and improved combiner.


I tested the old combiner and the new better matched combiner. I suspected there might not be much of any difference and there wasn't. The VSWR test results were much better but the signal levels were almost unchanged (0dB +/-1 dB for stations across the band). The mismatch loss in the old combiner isn't high enough to measure any real difference. That doesn't mean I won't recommend the new version because it's always best to go with what matches the theory the best.

Yes, I use RG-223 because that's what I have and I'm able to get a pretty good crimp using a RG-59 F connector.

There's no trick on the leads. Just make them as short as possible.

I may be just be nitpicking here but a 1/4 wave stub and a 1/4 wave matching section are different uses for the same thing. A 1/4 wave stub implies a coaxial notch filter and a 1/4 wave matching section is used to match different impedances.


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## orbot

I spent some time adjusting the GH wires through trial and error, trying to squeeze out as much gain in a smaller package. Went through 20+ variations and ended up with a quad stack that's only 60x60" in size, a bit smaller than the Antennacraft double SuperG-1483. UHF raw gain is 17.9-19.9 dBi, F/B and F/R ratio >20dB (if using 1x1" reflector screen, >13dB with 2x2" screen), SWR <1.6. The combining method that Calaveras described is probably beyond my ability without videos and stuff, but I wonder if it's something that could be mass produced for commercial use.


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## thxman




----------



## Calaveras

rabbit73 said:


> Very good test setup by Chuck. The only thing I wonder about is how close the impedance of the antenna feed point is to 300 ohms.


It's a 4:1 coaxial balun which doesn't automatically make it a 300:75 transformer. Ideally the 1/2 wave coax loop would be 150 ohms but good luck finding 150 ohm coax. The loop made out of 93 ohm coax is a compromise but still works pretty well. The 300 ohm load resistor is what makes it a 300:75 ohm transformer. It could just as well be 200:50 ohm transformer.

Attached is the VSWR of just one of the 4:1 baluns I used with the combiner shown above. The load is just a 300 ohm carbon resistor. The VSWR is pretty good. It doesn't seem as though the 93 ohm coax is affecting it much.


----------

